[RESTRICTED]
Originator: ROCK
Document date: 05/19/1975
Document type: SOUND RECORDING

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

8/27/201

AGENCY:

RECORD NUMBER:

ROCKCOM

178-10002-10335

RECORD SERIES:

ASSASSINATION FILE

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : A-I(1) INTERVIEWS RE ASSASSINATIONS

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION

FROM:

BELIN, DAVID

TO:

THE FILE

TITLE:

[Restricted]

Released under the John f. Kennedy

assassination Records Collection

act of 1992 (44 USC 2107 Note).

Case#:NU 53244 Date: 06-13-2017

DATE: 05/19/1975

PAGES: 15

SUBJECTS:

KENNEDY, ROBERT

FITZGERALD, DESMOND

CUBAN EXILES

ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

OPERATION MONGOOSE

(Restricted)

DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

• RESTRICTIONS: 1B

CURRENT STATUS:

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 07/09/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS:

Altached 10 1781000210334.

vg.1

11H 53244

DocId: 32204780

Page 1

97

---

## Page 2

Hild

COMMISSION ON CIA ACTIVITIES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES

Washington, DC 20500

May 19, 1975

MEMORANDUM

TO

FROM

SUBJECT

: The File

: David W. Belin

:Interview with Mr. Nestor Sanchez

Belin: Mr. Sanchez, this is May 19, 1975, and I'd like to

summarize the conference

we've had here at the Com-

mission headquarters at 712 Jackson Place.

I wonder if you

could state your name ano

address and your office phone where

we can get in touch with you

sanchez Nestor Sanchez; -6636 Langdon«coult, Mclean, office

phone number is extension 6176.

B:

S:

B:

is :

B:

And you worked with the CIA since 1961--51, 1951?

Yes, I have.

And prior to that time, what did you do?

I started out in Korea, I was in Korea '51 to 153.

Had you been in the service during World War II?

Or shortly thereafter?

S

Yes, I had been.

B:

And what did you do after World War II?

I went back to school and was called back as a reserve

officer in 1951 when I was going to the Georgetown

Graduate School.

B:

"Where did you take your undergraduate work?

New Mexico Militarv Institute incRoswell.

B:

And did you finish up your graduate work at Georgetown?

Dictabelt: 178-10004-10390

Transcript: 178-10002-10335

.--

+...

1H 53244 DocId: 32204780

Page 2

LAHAARKED

AT CONTAIN NATI. SECURITY IHFORMATION

PHOTOCOPY

FROM

FORD LIBPARY

---

## Page 3

-2-

S. An M.A., but I didn't write my thesis since I was going

on

to a Ph.D. without writing the thesis, and going

on for the doctorate.

I was called back to the Service at

that time.

B:

S:

' B:

And after you were in the Service you worked with the

CIA while you were in the Service?

Yes, I was called back to active duty and assigned to

CIA in 1951.

And then you've been with them ever since?

I've been with them ever since.

B :.

And, where were you during the 1950s, so

• far as the

Agency was concerned?

iS :

I started in Korea, I was in Korea for three years.

I then spent five

years in--a short time in Guatemala:

and Central America, in late '53, early '54.

Then I spent five

years in Motoccosscasablanca. I came back to washington in

late 1959.

B:

And then what did you do?

,S:

I was in charge of the part of the Arab States in the

Near East Division for two years.

B:

S:

And then what?

I was preparing to go todCairo: at that time and was

assigned on temporary duty to the Special Operations

Group on Cuba.

B:

$:

B:

And who was your superior in that group?

Bill Harvey was in charge of the group at that time.

Was there anyone else in the Agency in a supervisory

position that you had contact with; besides Bill

Harvey?

S:

Seymour Bolton was part of the group and part of the

--on the psychological political

action part of the

staff, and I was working first with him when I first got in

but then after Bill Harvey left and Fitzgerald--Desmond

Fitzgerald took over I became a special assistant for the or-

ganization of the collection of intelligence first and the

organization of the military inside Cuba.

HW 53244 DocId:32204780 Page 3

PHOTOCOPY

FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

---

## Page 4

-3-

B:

Bill Harvey left for Europe around June or so of 1963,

and did you say that Desmond Fitzgerald took over that

position?

'S:

summer ater on during that summer sometime during the

B: .

Fitzgerald is now dead?

., S:

Yes, he is.

And, Fitzgerald had a relationship with what was known

as the Special Group or the Special Group (Augmented)?

S:

B:

As I understand it, he

did, yes.

Did he have a personal relationship with Robert Kennedy

PHOTOCOPY

also?

, S:

I understand that he did have a personal relationship

with the Kennedys. To the best of my knowledge he did.

B:

Now, during the first part of 1963 or. prior thereto

were you aware of the existence of any possible plans®

for the assassination of any Cuban leader?

..S:

No, I didn't.

B:

Some time in the latter half of 1963 you stated that

you came in contact with a person who I will call a

contact, who was someone inside Cuba in a position of --a

relatively high position in the Cuban government or military,

is that correct?

S :.

Yes, I dia.

B:

And I understand that you first met him in Latin America

FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

on a trip some time in the latter part of 1963, is that

what you said?

S':

B:

•S:

B:

S:

yes, in the Fall, early Fall of '63.

Then you subsequently met this contact in Europe?

Yes, I did.

On one occasion in Europe, or two occasions in Europe?

Probably more than that --on three or four occasions--

but at least on two occasions, yes.

NW 53244 DocId:32204780 Page 4

---

## Page 5

- 4-

B:

At that time, could you give by way of background, the

overall situation so far as the Special Group (Augmented)

and your relationship to it? What was the purpose of the Group,

and what were you doing in regard to the group?

S:

I wasn't a party or had any--attended any of the meet-

ings of the Special Group--Special Group Augmented.

My particular task at that time was--that was assigned--parti-

cular task that was assigned to me was to collect intelligence

and to try to organize a group of military officers inside Cuba

who were opposed to the Cuban regime--the Castro regime.

B:

And in discussing matters with these people, I assume

you had contact with a number of Cuban exiles, is that

correct?

iS :

Not many, but with this one particular fellow I did

because of his--he was one of the few people who could

travel outside of Cuba at that time.

B:

But he was not a Cuban exile. He was a--

S:

--not an

exile, excuse me.

With exiles, at that time,

• I didn't have any contact with the exile at that time.

B:

With this particular person inside Cuba, I wonder if

you could just summarize the discussions you had with

at your first meeting, for instance in Latin America what

said and what you said to the best of your recollection.

• S :

To the best of my recollection when we first met, my

objective was to attempt to find out what the feelings

were against the Castro regime within Cuba,

to try to find

out

it there were people opposed still within the regime but

opposed to the regime, and to find out by name and by position

where these people stood in the regime.

B:

• S:

B:

'$:

B:

And did you get information from him in that regard?

Yes, I did.

Were there any discussions at this first meeting about

possibly assassinating any Cuban leader?

No, there weren't.

All right. Now the next meeting you met with this

contact was in Europe?

PHOTOCOPY FROM '

THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

iW 53244 DocId:32204780 Page 5

---

## Page 6

- 5-

s?

B:

S:

Yes.

And do

you know approximately when that occurred?

The month thereafter, it must have been in September

--as best I can recolleat.

B:

5:

B:

. S:

Of 1963?

' 63.

And what happened at that meeting?

We continued the discussions which we had started in

Latin America, again talking about the personalities

Castro government.

B:

In connection with this coup, was there any direct

discussion of--well, I'll have to stop here, we're at

the end of the tape. I'll continue on the next tape.

(Tape 2)

During the meeting in Europe was

there on the first

meeting in

Europe,

was there any discussion concerning possible

assassination of Castro?

. S:

The subject of assassination was never raised by me.

It was never discussed in that context.

In discussing

the coup and how a coup would be carried out, the, this parti-

cular contact did raise the possibility and in his mind the

very real possibility that there would be

bloodshed, and

that somebody would be killed. Their, or his, opinion was

that to even

get the internal revolt, a coup, underway that

the leadership--the top leadership--would have to be neutralized.

Specific assassination of any of the people, it was not discussed

in those--in those particular terms.

B:

I think during your interview you mentioned that you

said in substance that it is often in coups a natural

ou prohaps that the a resurshop

would be, you said, neutralize

a coup.

S:

Yes. This was a position that he maintained, although

•we were not willing to talk about this or to discuss

anything in conjunction with assassination or with the elimina-

tion of the leadership. We would have preferred, I presume,

to have seen a bloodless coup, but in his,

certainly in his

estimation this was not going

to be possible and we must--he

1H 53244 DocId:32204780 Page 6

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

---

## Page 7

-9-

felt that he should be prepared and that the group inside

should be prepared to spill blood if this is

what--if this

is the way it went.

B:

Now, at the first meeting in Europe that you had, did

he make

any specific requests of you?

Yes, he did.

B:

What were those requests?

• S:

He questioned the sincerity and the resolve and serious-

ness of the U.S. Government to follow through with this

type of operation.

He reguested a meeting with a policy--a

high level policymaker in Washington, specifically mentioning

Robert Kennedy as one of the people who, with whom he would

like to talk, to ensure, to get some assurance that Washington

was serious about proceeding with this type of an operation.

B:

Did he make any other requests?

That they would need some help in--in arms probably--

in getting started, in kicking off the coup.

He felt

that once that happened they would--a small amounts of arms

because they felt that they could capture sufficient arms to

carry on once they started.

B:

S:

Did he mention any particular kinds of arms?

High-powered rifles and scopes and---

B:

$:

B:

$:

B:

S: •

B:

S:

Then what did you say to that request of his?

I said that I was not authorized to--to approve such

a request, and that I would certainly pass his thoughts

and his request on to Washington.

Did you do that?

Yes, I did.

And who did you talk to?

To Desmond Fitzgerald.

And what did Fitzgerald say or do?

I don't know what he--what he did, as to who he talked

to or who he saw because I wasn't with him when he--

when he--when that--when he did that.

I do know that in about

a month--about a month after that, this particular contact was

preparing and was ready to go back to Cuba.

We had to move

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD

FORD LIBPARY

WW 53244 DocId:32204780 Page 7

---

## Page 8

- -

rather fast and talk to him if he was going to do that. Or

LI he was going to make up his mind to defect nd to stay away

=-not to return to cuba.

The answer that I got from Fitz-

gerald was that he would go to Europe as a representative of

the Administration

to present the policy assurances to this

particular contact.

B:

S:

Do you know whether or not Fitzgerald ever contacted

anyone in the Administration on this?

No. I don't know, I would presume that this was

cleared.

B:

S:

But do you know if it was cleared inside the Agency

or inside the Administration, or both.

I don't know.

I did not attend any of those meetings

with Fitzgerald with anybody within the Agency or

within the Administraton.

B:

You mentioned that Fitzgerald did have a social rela-

tionship with Robert Kennedy. Is that correct?

Well, again, to the best of my knowledge he had a

personal--I

wouldn't call it a social--but there was

certainly, I would think, a I understood--there was a personal

relationship, in addition to the official relationship.

B:

Had you ever been in Fitzgerald's office when he

directly called Robert Kennedy?

:S:

Well, as I told you during the interview, at one time

on a particular paper that was being prepared for.

the Special Group (Augmented) there was a question as to whether

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

Robert Kennedy to ascertain if this particular paper was still

required and received the answer directly from him.

B.

Now, Fitzgerald did go to Europe, is that correct?

He did.

. S:

B:

S:

B:

S:

Were

you with him at all, or not?

Yes,

I was.

Were

Yes,

you

with him when he met with the contact in Europe?

served as an interpreter.

IN 53244

DocId: 32204780

Page 8

---

## Page 9

_8-

B:

And what was said in that conversation by Fitzgerald

and this contact and yourself, if you can remember.

S:

To the best of my recollection, it was Fitzgerald

assured him that the Government--that the U.S. Govern-

ment was serious about this operation, that the policy assurance

that he was

looking for was given to him by Fitzgerald. Fitz-

gerald also informed the contact that the U.s. Government was

prepared to support the coup and that when they launched the

coup as

soon as they established themselves in any reasonable

manner

inside Cuba that the U.S. Government would support them.

B:

Do you know what the contact said if you can

remember?

He appeared, as I recall again, he appeared satisfied

with

the answer, with the assurance that he received.

He accepted Fitzgerald, although using an alias,

as a repre-

sentative, as a high level U.S. Government representative

talking for the policy level of the Government.

B:

Did Fitzgerald use an alias or was the contact the one

PHOTOCOPY

FROM

who used the alias?

S:

B:

Fitzgerald used an alias.

He did not use--he did not

use, he was not introduced to him in true name. Neither

was I known to him in true name.

Any other remembrance you might have of that conversation??

S:

B:

= S:

An insistence on the part of the contact that --

(buzz) Go ahead, we have another half-minute.

FORD

they not be left in the lurch, that they--that the

Government follow through on the operation as

discussed.

(Tape 3)

B:

. S:

• B:

Now after the meeting with Fitzgerald and the contact

did you have another meeting with the contact in

Europe?

Yes I did.

Do you know about when this occurred?

=.

IN 53211 DocId:32204780

Page 9

---

## Page 10

- 9-

S:

It must have been a few weeks after the - that

contact or a month after that.

But; precisely

по.

I had a meeting before he, before Fitzgerald left

Europe with him

to ask him if he was satisfied with the

policy assurances that had been given

to them, and he was

• adding the qualifier provided you really mean

what you said

of giving us the full

and complete support that we require.

I then met him again in later November 20 ... well it was

a different date there because of the time change, but it

was

approximately 22 November.

B:

November 22, 1963?

S:

Yes, with a date change - with a time change, it

was

in. late November.

Yes, yes it was.:

B:

Now that was November 22, 1963?

S:

November 22, 1963, yes it was.

B:

Now, can you give some background on that meeting

as to what the background was as to what conversa-

tions took place and then relate what did

take place at

that meeting?

S:

Yes, the contact, as with the policy meeting that

he had requested before, had always questioned as

to whether the U.S. Government was serious about entering

into this type of an operation and it questioned the

resolve of the U.S. Government to follow through with

. the

operation.

He also talked about the support that they

would require, and the need for something to protect him-

self in case he was, in case there was a leak in the

operation once it was organized inside Cuba and he was

confronted by Castro. He had in mind some type of esoteric

gadget with which he would be able to defend himself if

this confrontation came about and it was in such a sur-

rounding in which he was not personally armed.

B:

By gadget, what kind of a gadget do you mean?

S:

He never specifically came around to it. He hac

in mind some sort of aspellet pen or anything that

was not a hand weapon that he could carry with him to, into

such a conference.

B:

He had made that request before the November 22

meeting?

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

r..

33:

Wint

NH 53244 DocId:32204780 Page 10

---

## Page 11

- 1U-

S:

He had but we had never pursued such a line because

of our insistance in not discussing in any way the

elimination of the leadership.

B:

But, was anything undertaken to be developed inside

The

Agency in response to the request of this

contact?

S :

No, it wasn't up until that time and we had not, this

is one of the subjects on which he thought, as we

mentioned before during the interview, that somebody was

bound to be hurt in this type of an attempt and that if he

was going to give up his life, if it came to that, he wanted

to take somebody

else along with him.

He did not want

shall

we say die in vain and wanted to be prepared to be able

to

this.

B:

so what did the Agency do in response to that

request?

S:

The request was made, the request was reported, to

the Agency. Again,

this became one of those points

as with

the policy question of trust, of whether we were

serious about the operation.

So it was decided that again

we would not in any way become directly involved in such an

operation but to show that there was resolved, that we were

serious about the operation and also that we were concerned

with his life and the danger he was going to undertake, it

was decided to show him

and to take a pen which had been,

a syringe needle had been

inserted into the den and to give

him an idea as to what, if he decided

that he needed some-

thing like this that he could then, with a syringe, and

Blackleaf 40 was

mentioned to him

as something he could get

inside,

which again we would not in any way become involved

in providing for him that something like this could be

rigged by him and any substance of this type could be used.

But he was, when he was informed definitively that we would

not provide him with any type weapon or pellet or anything

else, he said the least we could do if we were concerned

with his security is to give him

some idea as to what he

could do to defend himself and if necessary take the life

of the other person if it came to that.

B:

This was a ballpoint pen that had been developed

which

had a hypodermic needle inside when you

pushed the lever the needle came out and

you could inject

poison

in someone, is that correct?

PHOTOCOPY

FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

---

## Page 12

•..

-11-

S:

B:

S:

Yes, this was not something that, this was something

that was developed just after this request.

And did you ever deliver pen to him, this contact?

No, I didn't.

I showed it to him and he didn't

think too much of this idea.

B:

When did you show it to him? On this November 22

meeting?

This was at this November meeting, yes.

He didn't

think too much of it because of the close proximity

with which he would have to get to a person if anything

developed in the form of a confrontation with him.

B:

So what did he ask for instead?

S:

He was

told, and I was authorized to tell him at

that time,

that a cache of weapons would be put

down for him in Cuba.

B:

Any other memory that you have of that November 2?

conversation?

S:

No, he was not, he was not happy with the fact that

we continued to

refuse

to help him on something

that he felt was essential for him and his own safety and

for his own protection, but he was satisfied that at least

we were in the help that had been promised to him by his

policy contact, that at least we were prepared to put down

a cache for him of weapons inside Cuba. To the point that

at that time he did state that he was

prepared to return to

Cuba.

This had also been in question throughout this period

of time as to whether he would return or would not return.

B:

•As I understand your standard operating procedure

you would much prefer to have a person of that kind

be a contact in place inside the country rather than be an

exile, is that correct?

Yes, absolutely. Outside he would be of very little

Cuba in developing the internal operation.

ITH 53244 DocId:32204780 Page 12

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

---

## Page 13

B :

As I understand it, one of the reasons he wasn't

satisfied with this ballpoint pen arrangement was

that he felt he wanted something that could be used

if he was on one side of the table and Castro was on the

other side of the table, that he would not have to get right

next the man to use it, is'that correct?

• S :

That's right, that's correct.

B:

Did you ever have the final authorization to

deliver it to him or was it just something that

you showed him as part of your good faith?

S:

No, it was primarily just to show him as part of

our good faith.

As I recall we did not think that

he would be satisfied with this particular idea

but-with this particular implement, which he wasn't. But

at least it was another indication of good faith which he

was demanding.

B:

Any other rememberances you have of that November 22

conversation?

No, except that he, at that time, stated that he

would return, that he had decided that he woula

return and to see what he could do to organize the group

inside Cuba to get an updated reading on these people and

their feelings against the regime and proceed with the

organization we had been talking about.

B:

He had orginally been a supporter of the regine in

getting rid of Batista?

S:

Yes he had been but he had not been a member of the

26th of July movement but he had been one of the-

a member of one of the groups that overthrew Batista.

B:

But then he became disenchanted with Castro?

According to what he said, yes he became dis-

enchanted with Castro early on in or shortly

so it's shortly after Castro took over because

ot the policies that were beins implemented by Castro and

his government:

B :

What policies didn't he like?

NN 53244

DocId:32204780

Page 13

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD

LIBRARY

---

## Page 14

-13

-

S:

The harsh police state policies

that were being

carried out.

B :

S:

Now, did you have any

meetings with him subsequent

to November 22, 1963?

Yes I saw him,

I saw him again in late, in late '64

in the fall of '64.

B :

In between that time had weapons been delivered to

him?

S:

The cache I understand, one or two caches were put

down for him, I did not-I was not a party

to putting

down these caches.

B:

These were what kinds of weapons?

S:

B:

I presume the high-powered rifles that were, that

were requested by him.

With

scopes do you know?

S:

I believe so, I don't know specifically, I didn't

see the caches before before being prepared or

anything like this, but I presume they included the high-

powered weapons with the scopes.

B:

• Now, in addition to the caches of weapons was there

any large amounts of cash that was ever paid to him

to the best of your knowledge?

S:

Not to the best of my knowledge.

B:

Was there any amount of cash relatively small that

was paid to him to the best of your knowledge?

S:

He was given some money for expenses while I was,

while I was meeting him in Europe. He did ask, he

did ask for some money I understand later

on but this

was

after, after my contact with him at last, this was in late

164.

B:

to him?

Do you know if the large sum. of cash was ever given

S :

I don't know. I don't believe so:

FRON THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

---

## Page 15

-14-

B:

How much cash approximately did you get to him?

S:

I-according to my recollection they were small

amounts •

They were, they were $300-$400 something

like this for his living expenses, to help him with his

living

expenses, while he was in Europe.

I don't recall

giving him a large amount of money at any time. It was

around a thousand at one time, no more than that.

B:

Anything else that you can think of with regard to

your

• 1964 contact with him?

S:

except that at that time the decision had been

made in washington not to proceed with the operation

and or to wind it down and there was even more reluctance

in going through with it.

no no was a an

without telling him about it, without letting him know

about it, is to put him-try to indirectly arrange for him

to contact the external group, which had been organized

and see if they could work out an arrangement between them-

selves.

B:

The external

group, you mean the external group

of exiles?

•S :

Yes, this was an exile group, the group that

some exiles

had organized.

B:

Anything else that you can think of that might in

any way be relevant to our inquiry?

..S:

B:

S:

B:

No, not that I... that I...:

Now, do you know if there were any other subsequent

Agency contacts with this particular contact after

you last met with him in the latter part of 1964?

No, I left, I left working on the project shortly

after that

and did not-did not keep

up with it so

to my recollection or to my knowledge I don't know.

What did you do after you left this particular

project" then?

'S:

I was assigned to Venezuela.

NW 53244

DocId: 32204780

Page 15

iN:

PHOTOCOPY

FROM

THE

GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

---

## Page 16

-1g-

:..

...

B:

S:

B:

And when were you assigned there?

In '65, ineearly '65.

Now, was there some concern inside the Agency that

perhaps part of these plans might have leaked out

and that might be one of the reasons for winding it down?

S:

Not, not so much as of the time, as of the time that,

I don't, I don't, there was concern that quite a

ew people were becoming knowledgeable of the organizatio

ut before I left the operation there was not. as I recall

that much concern

about it.

B:

Anything else you can think of that might in any

way be relevant to the inquiries of the Comnission?

S:

No, not that I...

B:

Any other assassination plots or plans that you

know of?

•S:

B:

None.

:

Do you know if there was ever any request made by

him possibly for silencers to go with any weapons?

him the de path hen to son, at a a n at are a.

of the operation when he was

group and I had no knowledge of that part of the operation.

B:

The Agency basically turned them over to the

exile

group then after you left?

PHOTOCOPY

THE GERALD R. 1

FORD LIBPARY

each other, which indirectly it was

arranged.

B:

S:

Anything else you can think of?

No.

B:

Thank you very much sir.

KH 53241 DocId:32204780 Page 16

---