DEPOSITION OF VICTOR ESPINOZA
Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
From: ESPINOSA, VICTOR
Document date: 6/7/78
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

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JFK Assassination System

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Date:

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AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER :

HSCA

180-10075-10072

RECORD SERIES: NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 009265

Released under the John

Assassination Recorde

Collection Act of 1992

i44 USC 2107 Note!.

Case#:NW 54756 Date:

10-31-2017

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

HSCA

ESPINOSA, VICTOR

TITLE: DEPOSITION OF VICTOR ESPINOZA

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

06/07/1978

113

ANTI-CASTRO CUBANS

CIA

ROBRENO, CARLOS

MACHADO

REVOLUTIONARY COUNCIL OF THE UNIVERSITY OF

HAVANA

CUBELA, ROLANDO

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS :

3

CURRENT STATUS:

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW :

01/01/2003

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

Duplicate transcripts in next two folders.

Box 170.

v9.1

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EXECUTIVE SESSION

2

DEPOSITION OF VICTOR ESPINOSA

3

- -

4

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 7, 1978

5

- -

6

House of Representatives

7

8

President John F. Kennedy

Subcommittee of the Select

Committee on Assassinations

9

Washington, D. C.

10

The deposition of Victor Espinosa was taken at 3:30

11 p.m., in the office of the Select Committee on Assassinations

12 in Room 3370 of the office of the Committee, Second and D

13 Streets, S.W., Washington, D. C.

14

Present: Jonathan Blackmer and John Hornbeck, Counsel

15 to the Select Committee.

16

Also Present: Ms. Elizabeth Berning, Chief Clerk to the

17 Select Committee.

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 Whereupon,

2

3 having been

VICTOR ESPINOSA

duly sworn by the Chief Clerk to the Select

4 Committee, was examined under the rules of the Select

5 Committee and testified as follows:

6

Mr. Blackmer.

we

are present in the Select Committee's

7 offices

to depose you. My name is Jonathan Blackmer and

I an

8 an attorney with the Select Committee on Assassinations.

9

By virtue of Rule 4 of House Resolution 222, I am

10 empowered to take statements under oath. Shortly, Mr. John

11 Hornbeck will join us, who is a senior staff counsel on this

12 committee, to further ask questions of the witness.

13

What is your full name, sir?

14

Mr. Espinosa.

Victor Espinosa.

15

Mr. Blackmer. And you are here for the purpose of

16 giving a voluntary statement before this committee?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

18

Mr. Blackmer.

I have given you a copy of the Committee

19 Rules, House Resolution. 222, 460 and 760. You are not now

20

under subpoena,

are you?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

22

Mr. Blackmer.

You are here voluntarily?

23

Mr. Espinosa.. Yes.

24

Mr. Blackmer.

You have the right to have counsel pre-

25 sent if you wish. There is no counsel here and

I assume that

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1 is of your own choice.

2

Mr. Espinosa:

I don't see it is necessary, anyway.

3

Mr. Blackmer. The entire record of this deposition will

4 be transcribed.

We will send you a copy for you to read,

5 verify and return to the Select Committee, after which we will

6 send you your own personal copy. Should you wish to make any

7 changes

inthe substance of the transcript, this must be done

8 before a

federal magistrate.

9

I know you are residing in London, and if it is necessary

10 to make any changes, if you feel corrections are necessary, if

11 you would please call us, we will try to make arrangements over

12 there for that to be done.

13

I would like to begin the questioning with a little back-

14 ground. You were born in Cuba; is that correct?

15

Mr. Espinosa. That is right.

16

Mr. Blackmer. And you resided there until when?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Until 1959.

18

Mr. Blackmer. And at that time you came to the United

19 States?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

21

Mr. Blackmer. Approximately in 1957 or 1958, were you a

22 student at the University of Havana?

23

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I was.

Mr. Blackmer. And as

a student at the University of

25 Havana, were you engaged in any underground activities with

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1 either

anti-Batista or later anti-Castro?

2

Mr.

Espinosa. Yes, both.

3

Mr.

Blackier. And could you tell us the nature of the

4 activities

which were directed against the Batista regime?

5

Mr.

Espinosa. Well, different kinds of clandestine

6 activities.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Would that be in the nature of raising

8 explosives or arms for paramilitary use?

9

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes, mainly.

10

Mr. Blackmer. Were you involved in any individual sabo-

11 tage operations?

12

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

13

Mr. Blackmer.

what specific activities were those?

Was

14 there anything that comes to mind?

Mr.

Espinosa. No, not really.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Was it aimed at the economy more than

17 individual members of the Batista regime?

18

Mr. Espinosa. Not so much the economy, but as an indi-

19 vidual member.

20

Mr. Blackmer. High level officials?

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

22

Mr. Blackmer. Were you involved with Fidel Castro in

23 these anti-Batista activities?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25

Mr. Blackmer. Who were you working with?

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1

Mr. Espinosa. With students, the Revolutionary Council of

2 the University of Havana.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Who are the particular leaders?

4

Mr. Espinosa. There was Echeverria.

5

Mr. Blackmer. Do you have a

first name?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Jose Antonio; and Cubela, Porton Chaumon

7 and a few

others.

8

Mr. Blackmer. How were your activities financed?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Mainly by bonds that were being sold to

10 sympathizers of the revolutionary party.

11

Mr. Blackmer. Were there any large contributors that you

12 can think of?

13

Mr. Espinosa. I am sure there were, but not that I had

14 any knowledge of.

15

Mr. Blackmer. Your family were landowners, were they not,

16 in Cuba?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

18

Mr. Blackmer. And were they part of the upper class?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Were they at all sponsoring your acti-

21 Vities?

22

23

Mr. Espinosa. Not that I know of.

Mr. Blackmer. Could you tell us when you first met

24 Rolando Cubela?

25

Mr. Espinosa.

It was a long time ago. We were children

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and he used

to go to school in the same town in which I was

2

born in Cuba.

3

Mr. Blackmer. So you had known him many years before your

4

activities

started.

5

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

6

Mr. Blackmer. At the University?

7

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

8

Mr. Blackmer.

Who were some of his associates in the

9 underground activities?

10

Mr. Espinosa. For example, one Cubela and Machado.

11

Mr. Blackmer. Do you have the first names?

12

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot remember the first names because

13 we used to call him "Machaletto" and Joe Westbrook.

14

Mr. Blackmer. Is that an American?

15

Mr. Espinosa. No, he was a Cuban.

16.

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know what any of these individuals

17 are doing now?.

18

Mr. Espinosa. They are dead.

19

Mr. Blackmer. Are any of these individuals now with the

20 Castro government?

21

Mr. Espinosa. I think Chaumon is with the castro govern-.

22 ment, and I think Raminda -- and it has been so many years --

23 and Naranjo and the rest of the people I mentioned there

24

25

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1 are

dead.

2

Mr. Blackmer. When did your interest change from being

• 3 anti-Batista

to pro-Castro?

4

Mr. Espinosa. I was never pro-Castro; being against

5

Batista

does

not mean you are pro-Castro.

6

I think

very shortly after Castro took over I began to be

7 anti-Castro.

8

Mr. Blackner. Did you ever meet Castro?

9

Mr. Espinosa. No.

10

Mr. Blackmer.

Do you know of any people who were closely

11

associated with him?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Only one person.

13

Mr. Blackmer. And that was whom?

14

Mr. Espinosa. That was Jose Smith, and he landed in Cuba

15 when Castro

landed and he was killed at that time. That is the

16 only person whom I knew was close to him.

17

Mr. Blackmer. When Castro landed in Cuba, was that in

18 1956?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes, 1956.

20

Mr. Blackner. So your activities began approximately in

211957.

22

Mr. Espinosa.

No, I would say 1955.

23

Mr. Blackmer.

During this period of time, did you know

24 Pedro Diaz Lanz?

25

Mr. Espinosa.

No, I did not.

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Mr. Blackmer. Have you subsequently known about Pedro

2 Diaz Lanz?

3

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Did you have any personal knowledge of

5 him?

6

Mr. Espinosa. What do you mean by "personal knowledge?"

7

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever have any contact with him?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I did.

9

Mr. Blackmer. And what period of time was that?

10

Mr. Espinosa. It was, I would say, in 1959 and 1960 in

11 Miami.

12

Mr.

Blackmer. Do you recall who he was with when you saw

13 him?

14

Mr. Espinosa.. No, I do not recall really, and I only met

15 him once or twice.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know an individual by the name of

17 Frank Sturgis?

18

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

19

Mr. Blackmer. Where did you meet this individual?

20

Mr. Espinosa. In Miami.

21

Mr. Blackmer. In what time?

22

Mr. Espinosa. 1959 or 1960.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Was he with Diaz Lanz when you met him?

24

Mr. Espinosa. I can't recall.

25

Mr. Blackmer. When you were living in Havana in 1959 and

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1959, did you remember frequenting

the Hotel Nacional.

2

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I did.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know an individual there by the

4 name. of Michael McLaney?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

6

Mr. Blackmer. Would you explain how you first met Mr.

7 McLaney and the

nature of your relationship?

8

Mr. Espinosa. I met him first because the manager of the

9 hotel, the social manager of the hotel was

a friend of mine.

10

11

Mr. Blackmer. And his name was what?

• Mr. Espinosa. It was Callejas, and he subsequently

12 introduced me to Bill MeLaney who ultimately introduced me to

13 Mike MeLaney.

14

Mr. Blackmer. And what was the nature of your

15 relationship?

16

. Mr. Espinosa.

It was just social in Cuba.

17

Mr. Blackmer. Did you go out with them to dinner?

18

19

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, sometimes.

Mr. Blackmer. Were either of the MoLaney brothers

20 involved in any clandestine activities against either Batista

21 or castro to your knowledge at that time?

22

Mr. Espinosa. Not that I know of.

23

Mr. Blackmer. You came to the United States, vou

24 say, in December.

of 1959?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Yes,

I think so.

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1

Mr. Blackmer.

Were you sponsored by Mike McLaney?

2

Mr: Espinosa. Yes,

I was.

3

Mr. Blackmer. And did he help you in getting over here

4 financially?

5

6

Mr. Espinosa. No.

Mr. Blackmer.

Were you trained by the Central

7 Intelligence Agency in any clandestine paramilitary training of

8 any kind?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I believe it was then.

10

Mr. Blackmer. Could you tell us your first contact with

11 the Central Intelligence Agency and your first role in the

12 Cuban exile movement prior to the Bay of Pigs in the United

13 States?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Well, I heard when I came to the States

15 they were forming some kind of a brigade or something to invade

16 Cuba,

and I told different

friends of mine in Miami to let me

17 know when the thing was happening. I went to New York to work

18 and they contacted me at one point, and they were recruiting

19 people to take part in this activity, and

I went back to Miani

20 and I enlisted myself.

21

Mr. Blackmer.

could you tell us who it was that contacted

22 you?

23

Mr. Espinosa. I think it was Mario Jiminez.

24

Mr. Blackmer. He contacted you and came back to Miami,

25 and where did you go to enlist?

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Mr. Espinosa. I went to one of the enlisting houses, and

2 I think there was one house where you go over there and

3 enlist.

4

Mr. Blackmer. And do you recall any particulars about

5 that house, who was running it and who was there?

6

Mr.

Espinosa.

No.

7

Mr. Blackmer.

Do you know an individual by the name of

8 Howard Hunt?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Nell, I have heard about him.

10

Mr. Blackmer. Have you seen photographs of him?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

12

Mr.

Blackmer. Was this individual involved in any of

13 this early contact you had with the Central Intelligence

14

Agency?

15

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know.

16

Mr. Blackmer.

After you enlisted in Miami, where were

17 you then

sent?

18.

Mr. Espinosa. I was sent to Guatemala.

19

Mr: Blackmer. And this would have been approximately

20 when?

21

Mr. Espinosa. This

would have been approximately ---

22

Mr. Blackmer.

could it possibly have been in the

23 beginning of 1960?

24

Mr. Espinosa.

No, it was not the beginning of 1950. I

25 would say it was the toward the end of 1950, the third quarter

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20

21

22

23

24

25

1 of 1960.

It was june or July, approximately..

Mr.

Blackmer. Did you first go to

Panama or first

to

3 Guatemala?

Mr. Espinosa.

I went to Guatemala and then

went to

5 Panama.

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Mr.

Blackmer.

what

type of activities were you trained

2 in?

3

Mr. Espinosa.

just general activities, general,

4 conventional military warfare

and guerrilla warfare and

5 training in

explosives and munitions and clandestine

E operations, et cetera.'.

7

Mr. Blackmer.

Do you recall any of the people who

8 trained you? Nere they Americans?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, there were some Americans and some

10 Europeans

too.

11

Mr. Blackmer. Do you recall the names of these

12 individuals?

13

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot recall the names.

I know one

14 person, an American of Philippine origin, and he was known to

15 us as Colonel Vallejo.

16

Mr. Blackmer.

During this training, did you know an

17 individual by the name of Carlos Hernandez?

18

Mr: Espinosa. Yes, I did.

19

Mr. Blackmer.

was there an individual by the name of

20 John Koch Gene.

involved with you?

21

Mr. Espinosa. I do not recall that name.

22

Mr. Blackmer. How about Acalo Pedro Amores?

23

Mr. Espinosa. No.

24

Mr. Blackmer. How about

Miguel Alvarez Jiminez?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

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14.

Mr. Blackmer.

1s this the same man who contacted you or

2 a different Jiminez?:

3

Mr. Espinosa. This is a different Jiminez.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Any relation to Mario?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No.

6

Mr. Blackmer. Was there anyone else that you later

had

7 acquaintances with that you trained with?

8

Mr. Espinosa. There were a dozen; there were many.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever go in any infiltration raids

10 into Cuba as

part of this?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

12

Mr. Blackmer. Can you recall any of the specific details

13 of any of the particular raids?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. One time we went to a raid about 20

15 kilometers in Havana and we were supposed: to knock out this

16 Navy

installation somewhere, and all of the raids were a

17 different nature, like

if we went into the country, and

18 getting

information of the country and bringing people out of

19 the country.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Do you recall any specific individuals

21

that you went on these raids with?

22

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I recall a

ew.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Could you give us their names?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Miguel Alvarez; Calcie Nundez was another,

25 and Frank--and I can't remember Frank's last name.

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1

Mr.

Blackmer.

was he American?

2

Mr. Espinosa. No, Cuban. It was Ugarte, and I can't

3 remember nis

first name.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Approximately when were these raids,

5

before or after the Bay of Pigs?

6

Mr. Espinosa. They were before and after the Bay of

7 Pigs.

8

Mr. Blackmer. How many raids did you go on after the Bay

9 of Pigs?

10

Mr. Espinosa. After the Bay of Pigs, I think I went in

11 two or three times.

12

Mr. Blackmer. And do you recall the last raid that you

13 went on that was sponsored by the CIA, approximately what date

14 that was?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Possibly it was four or five months after

16 the invasion.

17

Mr. Blackmer. Sometime in the summer of 1961?

18

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

19

Mr.

Blackmer.

were you involved in the bay of Pigs

20 invasion itself?

21

Mr.. Espinosa.

Not directly.

22

Mr. Blackmer.

were you infiltrated into cuba before the

23 Bay of Pigs?

24

Mr. Espinosa. I was

being infiltrated at the same time

25 that the Bay of Pigs was taking place, and

we were ordered

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go back to Miami and then when we got back to Miami, we found

2 out that they had landed.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Did they then try to send you back?

4

Mr. Espinosa. There was a little hustle at that time;

5 everything was very much in the air and we were on stand-by,

6 but we were not sent back.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Do you recall whether or not any members of

8 Customs or Immigration in the Miami area were made aware of any

9 of your particular raids so as not to stop you?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Would you rephrase that again?

11

Mr. Blackmer. The various raids that you went on, I

12 assume many of them were from the Miami area:

13

Mr. Espinosa.

They were from the Keys; down toward Key

14 West.

15

Mr. Blackmer. Were you aware of any monitoring by Customs

16 or Immigration officials of the United States Government?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Would -- what do you mean by "monitoring"?

18

Mr. Blackmer. These agencies are charged with the respon-

19 sibility of enforcing the neutrality acts. They try to limit

20 any hostile acts emanating from this country.

21

Were you aware that they were told specifically about your

22 operations so that they did not stop you?

23

Mr. Espinosa. No.

24

Mr. Blackmer.

were you ever stopped?

25

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1

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes, I was stopped

2

Mr. Blackmer. While you were working for the CIA?

3

Mr. Espinosa. No, never.

4

Mr. Blackmer. When were you stopped?

5

Mr. Espinosa. After I stopped activities with

the CIA.

6

Mr. Blackmer. Approximately when was this?

7

Mr. Espinosa. One time was in june of 1963.

8

Mr. Blackmer. That was in Miami?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, in Miami, and I had been served by

10 Customs agents

two different times and I don't know the legal

11 name for it, notification. If I was caught in a boat or in a

12 plane or trying to go somwhere, related to any kind of.

13 anti-Castro activity, I will get five years in jail or $5,000

14 fine or 10 years in jail.

15

Mr. Blackmer. You were in fact stopped once on June 15,

16 1963?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

18

Mr. Blackmer. Were you subsequently fined or any charges

19 brought against

you?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

No. I was taken to a prison and anyway I

• 21.

was released the next day.

22

Mr.

Blackmer.

Let us, if we can, deal with that incident

23 specifically. Our records indicate that on June 15 or 1963,

24 outside of Miami, you and four other individuals were stopped

25 by Customs and FBI

agents with a twin-engine beach craft

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1 airplane that you were attempting to load with explosives and

= bombs for

your intended mission, which was to bomb an oil

3 refinery in Havana.

4

Could

you tell us whose idea that operation emanated

5 from?

6

• Mr. Espinosa. From me.

7

Mr. Blackmer. It was your idea?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Did you get any assistance from any other

10 individual for the

raid?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I got assistance from Carlos

12 Hernandez, from Miguel Alvarez and that is the other kind of

13

assistance you are

asking for?

14

Mr. Blackmer:

Financial or other?

15

• Mr. Espinosa. Financial assistance from MeLaney.

16

Mr. Blackmer. How much money did. McLaney give you for

17 this project?

18

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot recall. He gave us whatever we

19 needed to buy the

explosives and so on.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Who got the airplanes?

21

Mr. Espinosa. It was Sam Benton.

22

Mr. Blackmer. And how did you

kno'

Sam Benton?

23

Mr. Espinosa. I met him at MeLaney's house several

24 times.

25

Mr. Blackmer. How was he introduced?

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1

Mr: Espinosa. You mean in what --.

2

Mr. Blackmer, What you understood to be his particular

3 role.

4

Mr. Espinosa. He was like a friend of mine and a friend

5 of Mike's and I guess Mike wanted him to front

for him or be

6 the one who got the airplane.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Did he have any specific knowledge of

8 planes or munitions or anything of that nature to where ne

9 would be a person

that you would go to get these things?

10

Mr. Espinosa. I wouldn't know that but I don't think so,

11 and I wouldn't think so.

12

Mr. Blackmer. So, you think it was really Mike who

13 secured the planes and used. Sam as the front man.

14

Mr. Espinosa. No, I think Mike told him to get us what

15 we wanted more or less and he got it.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Nas

it your understanding that benton was

17 connected with the government in any way, the U.s. government?

18

Mr. Espinosa. No, at no time did I believe he was

19 connected with the U.S. Government.

Mr. Blackmer. And had. Mike at any time to your knowledge

20

21 been

connected with the U.S. Government?

22

Mr. Espinosa. Not thai I know of.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Where did you get the explosives that you

24 were going to use?

25

Mr. Espinosa. I think we got them in Fort Lauderdale.

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Mr. Blackmer. Did you personally get them or someona

2 else

got thenn?

3

Mr. Espinosa. I think Miguel Alvarez got them.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Can you tell us a little bit about what

5 the plan was for this bombing raid?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Well, the plan mas to try to get the

7 refinery out of service or out of production so instead of

8 bringing crude oil into the country and be refined in cuba,

9 they would have to bring in the gasoline. So, that would have

10 made a very easy target

for us in order to blow up the tankers

11 or whatever vessels were used to bring in the gasoline.

12

Mr.. Blackmer. Were you aware that any of these vessels

13 that were carrying oil to cuba may have been flying a Russian

• 14 flag?

15

Mr. Espinosa. No, this was a hypothetical thing at the

16 time.

17

Mr. Blackmer. It was not your intention at that

time to

18 provoke an incident between the U.S. and Russia?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No, that would have stopped us from

20 blowing up the Russian

ship.

21

Mr. Blackmer. So, you had some knowledge, I understand,

22 of the particular oil refinery that

you vere going after?

23

Mr. Espinosa. les.

24

Mr. Blackner. How did you acquire that knowledge?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Nell, through

family busineses.

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Mr. Blackmer. And what specifically was that business?

2.

Mr. Espinosa. It was--there were industrial inspectors

3 who used to inspect sugar refineries,

alcohol and places where

4

alcohol was being made and gasoline

refineries, or oil

5 refineries, et cetera:

6

Mr. Blackmer. And you had personally gone over this

7 particular refinery?

Mr. Espinosa: Yes, as a younger man I used to go there

9 with inspectors sometimes to make some pocket money or

10: something.

11

Mr. Blackmer. A part-time job?

12

Mr. Espinosa. A part time job, yes.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Did you talk McLaney into financing this

14 operation?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

16

Mr. Blackmer. And did you know what his particular

17 interest was in seeing this operation successfully completed?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

well, I mean, first we have to say that if

19 the operation was successful, perhaps we had a chance to

20 economically cripple the country and consequently bring about

21

a change in the politics. Of course, a change in the

22 political situation at the time would have

been

a favorable

23 change for Mr. MoLaney's economics or business out

there.

24

Mr: Blackmer. So, MoLaney was personally interested in

25 regaining some of his possessions in cuba.

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Mr. Espinosa. Yes, exactly like that.

2

Mr. Blackmer.

Do you

know if he was

involved in any of

3 the internal politics in Cuba in the sense--do you know if he

4 was sponsoring any particular exile leaders who could possibly

5 in

the

foreseeable future go back to Cuba and take over once

6 Castro was eliminated?

7

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know that. I don't think so.

8

Mr. Blackmer. So, is it your opinion that Mr. MoLaney

9 was doing what little he could and hoping that others would do

10 a little and

add to the possible fall of the Castro regime?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Exactly.

12

Mr. Blackmer. In July of 1963 outside of New Orleans,

13 Louisianna, a large catch of dynamite and home-made bombs were

14 found in the home of Bill MeLaney. Could you tell us what you

15 know about that catch of arms that was discovered?

16

Mr. Espinosa.

It was

taken thare by

me and it was to be

17 used in other raids.

18

Mr. Blackmer. A similar raid?

19

Mr. Espinosa. As the one that was in cuba.

20

Mr. Blackmer. I understand that some of the people that

21 participated with you in the June 15 attempt also participated

22 with you in the july attempt.

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

24

Mr. Blackmer. First of all, it is my understanding that

25 you planned

on using a B-25 or B-26 bomber.

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Mir. Espinosa. Yes.

2

Mr. Blackmer, was it the B-25 or B-26?

3

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot remember, one or the other.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Who was it that was to get the plane?

5

Mr. Espinosa. The

plane was to be delivered

to us over

6 there.

7

Mr. Blackmer. At Pontchartrain?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, and we were to go over there on the

9 plane and take off.

10

Mr. Blackmer.

Specifically, who was going to go on

the

11. actual flight?

12

Mr. Espinosa.

It was going to be a pilot, whose name I

13 can't remember right now.

14

Mr. Blackmer. Was it Antonio Soto Vasquez?

15

Mr. Espinosa. I am not sure; it could be.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Who else was to go on the plane?

17

Mr. Espinosa. There were only three people to go on the

18 plane. It was going to be Antonio, if it was--I am not sure,

19

and Miguel and myself or either Migual or Carlos Hernandez.

20

Mr. Blackmer, Was Sam

Benton,

once again, going to get

21 you the plane?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Who was going to get you the plane?

24

Mr. Espinosa. I have no idea. We were tried; the whole

25 thing was departmentalized.

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Mr. Blackmer. Whose responsibility was it, to your

2 knowledge -- was it to get the plane?

3

4

Mr. Espinosa.

Financial responsibility, you mean?

Mr. Blackmer. Financial responsibility.

5

Mr.. Espinosa. It was Mike McLaney.

6

Mr. Blackmer. And to the best of your knowledge, Mike was

7 going to make sure that the plane was at a specified location?

Mr. Espinosa.

That is right.

9

Mr. Blackmer: And as to the pilot, did you take the

10 pilot with you or was the pilot supposed to be there with the

11 plane?

12

Mr. Espinosa. No. I went there first to that place, and

13 then the guy who was going to go with the plane, Carlos

14 Hernandez, came from Miami; and the pilot was supposed to meet

15 us there once the plane was there or we knew the plane was

16 coming, and he was going to fly from Miami to New Orleans.

17

Mr. Blackmer.

The pilot didn't come with Carlos

18 Hernandez?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No.

20

Mr. Blackmer:. Do you know an individual named Lauchli

21

from Colesville, Illinois?

22

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

23

Mr. Blackmer. How did you come to know Lauchli?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Someone gave me his phone number, and I

25 can't recall who did it by now,

and I called him and I

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1 inquired if I could go and

see him and get some explosives and

2 get some special detonators made for the bomos we were going

3 to drop in the raid.

4.

Mr. Blackmer. This individual that told you about him,.

5 what did the individual tell you about Luchli?

6

Mr: Espinosa. It was just the John Birch Society who had

7 helped some of the cubans and different officials before.

8

Mr. Blackmer. You telephoned this individual and met

9 him, I assume, where?

10

Mr. Espinosa. At his place, at his house.

11

Mr. Blackmer. That was where?

12

13

Mr. Espinosa. In Colesville, Illinois.

Mr. Blackmer.

Did you then go with him to pick up

14 explosives?

15

Mr. Espinosa.. First, we picked up the explosives but we

16

left them at the place where he had them and then we went on

17 for three or four days making the detonators which were made

18 from the heads of 61 millimeter mortar shells or ó0 millimeter

19

mortar shells.

20

Mr. Blackmer. I assume Mr. Lauchli supplied all of the

21 individual parts

and you and Luchli together made the bombs?

22

Mr. Espinosa.

we put them together and he had a very

23 nice working room.

24

Mr. Blackmer. This was in Colesville, Illinois?

25

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes..

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Mr. Blackmer. And then did you subsequently take the

2

bombs and munitions with you to New

Orleans?

3

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

4

Mr. Blackmer, When you went to New Orleans, where did

5 you stay?

6

Mr. Espinosa. I stayed at MoLaney's house.

7

Mr. Blackmer. The

same cottage at Lake Pontchartrain?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes but let me say something first. I

9 stayed

the first night in a motel, and the next day I drove

10 because

I wasn't sure I could find a place at night and then

11 the next day I drove over there.

12

Mr. Blackmer. Did you at any time contact Bill McLaney?

13

Mr. Espinosa. I can't recall if I did or not, I probably

14 did.

15

Mr. Blackmer. Do you recall if

someone else may

16 have given you a key or was the door left open?

In other

17 words, what I am trying to establish is: Did Bill know about

18

the whole operation?

19

Mr. Espinosa. I can't say for certain.

20

Mr. Blackmer. And you do not recall whether or not he

21 physically came to the cottage where you were?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know anyone else in New Orleans at

24 the time thai you

might have been in contact wiüh?

25 .

Mr.

Espinosa.

No.

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1

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know an individual by the name of

2 Guy Bannister?

3

Mr. Espinosa.

Not that I know of.

4

Mr. Blackmer. A former FBI agent

• and

active, at the time,

5

in New Orleans?

6

Mr. Espinosa. No.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know, or have you ever heard of

8 David Ferrie?

9

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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Mr. Blackmer.

Are you familiar with an

individual

by the

2

name of Carlos Marcello?

3

Mr. Espinosa. No.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Nick PoDich?

5

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

6

Mr. Blackmer.

Peter Surisco?

7

Mir. Espinosa. No.

8

Mr. Blackmer.

After you arrived at Lake Pontchartrain,

9 day or so later, I assume Carlos Hernandez came and met you

10 and I assume you went over the plan of the operation.

11

• Mr. Espinosá. Yes.

12 Mr. Blackmer. Could you tell

us at what point you

13 decided against going on the operation?

14

Mr. Espinosa.

well, somehow the father of Fred Gill, who

15 was going to arm the plane, died and subsequently we had to

16 restructure and the guy had to go to Miani and shortly after

17 the burial or something we found out he had been picked up by

18 the

FBI, so we had to call the operation off.

19

Mr. Blackmer. And at any time did you see the planes?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No.

21

Mr. Blackmer. After the operation was cancelled, where

22 did you go?

23

Mr. Espinosa. I came to New York.

24

Mr. Blackmer. Did you contact McLaney?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I did.

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2.9

1

Mr. Blackmer. And did you explain to him that the

2 operation had been cancelled?

3

4

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, for the time being.

Mr. Blackmer. What was his

reaction?

5

Mr. Espinosa. I explained it to him and I thought he was

6 reasonable.

7

Mr. Blackmer. After the June 15th raid

was stopped by the

8 FBI, did

you contact Mike McLaney?

Mr. Espinosa. Of course.

Mr. Blackmer. What was his reaction to that?

11

Mr. Espinosa. He was always a good

gambler and he took

12 things very philosophically.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Was he upset that the Federal Bureau of

14 Investigation had, in essence, infiltrated the operation?

15

Mr. Espinosa. No.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Was he aware that someone in the operation

17 had leaked the information to the FBI?

18

19

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, we told him.

Mr. Blackmer.

What was his reaction to that?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

We told him we wanted to kill the guy, but

21 he said, "No, you shouldn't do that."

22

Mr. Blackmer. After your trip to New York and your

23 contact with Mike McLaney, did you ever again propose a similar

24 operation?

25

Mr. Espinosa. No.

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1

Mr

•.

Blackmer. Why was that?

2

3

Mr. Espinosa. Well, you get tired of failure.

.Mr. Blackmer. Well, it was only

twice at this time.

4

Mr. Espinosa.

It is only twice, but up

to five or six

5 yers doing

the same thing.

6

Mr. Blackmer.

In 1962, there was a raid on a hotel in

7 Havana, a shelling of a hotel in Havana by members of the

8 DRE.

9

Mr. Espinosa. It was 1966.

10

Mr. Blackmer. No, 1962, by members of the DRE, which was

11

an anti-Castro exile organization at the time.

12

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Were you familiar with that raid?

14

Mr. Espinosa. No.

15

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know that Carlos Hernandez was on

16 that raid?

17

Mr. Espinosa. I have heard that he was, but I wasn't

18 sure.

19

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know Manuel Salvat?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

I can't recall.

21

Mr. Blackmer.

Also on that raid was an individual named

22 Udalia Mayar.

23

Did you ever hear of that individual?

24

Mr. Espinosa. I think so, yes.

25

Mr. Blackmer. And do you recall what you have heard

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about that

individual?

2

Mr. Espinosa. No.

3

Mr. Blackmer. vere you aware at any time of any

4 organized

crime efforts to sponsor similar raids similar

tO

5 the one that you were on?

Mr. Espinosa. No.

7

Mr. Blackmer. When you were living in Havana and

8 frequently in the Hotel Nacional, did you ever know an

9

individual named Norman Rothman?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

11

Mr. Blackmer.

What was

the nature of your relationship

12 with him?

13

Mr. Espinosa. I just saw him a couple of times; that is

14 all.

15

Mr. Blackmer.

Did you not in fact know his son?'..........

16

-..-

Mr .

Espinosa.

Yes.

18

Mr. Blackmer.

And did you know his son

in Havana or

19 Miami?

20

Mr. Espinosa. I met him in Miami.

21

Mr. Blackmer.

Was there a particular hotel or bar that

22 you used to meet?

23

Mr.

Espinosa. Yes, there was a bar in a hotel in Miami

24 Beach.. He used to have this bar, and I think we called him.

25 "Cappy," his nick-nane,

and we used to go quite often to his

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1

bar.

2

iir.

Blackmer.

And was the elder Rothman there on

3 occasion?

4

Mr. Espinosa. Maybe a couple of times, yes.

5

Mr. Blackmer. Sut you had

no specific association with

6. the elder Rothman?

7

Mr.

Espinosa. No.

8

Mr. Blackmer.

And at no time did Norman Rothman have

9 need of your services as

far as implementing any clandestine

10 activities?

11

Mr. Espinosa. No.

12

Mr. Blackmer. So, it was just Mike MoLaney.

13

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mr. Blackmer.

Did you know an individual named Frank

15 Bender?

16

Mr. Espinosa. I don't think so.

17

Mr. Blackmer. In Havana once again, did you have any

18 contact with the American Embassy with respect to your.

19 underground activities?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No.

21

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know any individuals in your group

22 wno had connections with

the

American Embassy?

23.

Mr. Espinosa. No.

24

Mr. Blackmer.

Did you know whether or not your friend,

25 Rolando

Cubela, had any contact with the American Enoassy?

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Mr. Espinosa. No..

2

Mr. Blackmer. Did you have any contact with the central

3

Intelligence Agency in Havana?

4

Mr. Espinosa. Not many, but from a good friend of mine,

5 yes.

6

Mir. Blackmer. Who was that?

7

Mr. Espinosa.

Carlos Tepedino. I don't know for sure he

8 was an agent.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Tepedino was a friend of Cubela, and ne

10 had contact with the CIA?

11

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot tell you for sure if he had

12 contact with the CIA but this is what we all believed at the

13 time.

14

Mr.. Blackmer.

Is there any individual that you may have

15 suspected that ne had contact with?

16

Mr. Espinosa. No.

17

Mr. Blackmer.

Have you heard of an

individual named

18 David Phillips?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever see Frank Sturgis at any of

21 the gambling casinos in Havana?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr.

Blackmer. Were you aware of any of frank sturgis'

24 activities

with Fidel Castro prior to Castro's take-over?

25

Mr. Espinosa. No.

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Nir. Blackmer.

Do you know an individual named Gerald

2 Patrick Hemming?

3

Mr. Espinosa.

I think I met him once or

twice in riani.

4

Mr. Blackmer.

And did you have any dealings with

5 Heinming?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Nothing at all.

Mr. Blackmer. What did you know

about Hemming?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Nothing.

What we thought we knew about

9 him is thât he was always mixing with the cubans that were

10 trying to do something but the word was he was working for che

11 FBI or CIA or somebody, and no one ever took him very

12 seriously about anything or confided in him for anything.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Where were you on November 22, 1963?

14

Mr. Espinosa. That was the assassination?

15.

Mr. Blackmer. Yes.

16

Mr. Espinosa. In New York.

17

Mr. Elackmer. When you learned of the assassination--and

18

I assume you saw newspaper articles and television coverage oî

19 the assassination-did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald as

20 having seen

him before?

21

Mr. Espinosa. No.

22

.Mr.. Blackmer. Had you heard anything after the

23 assassination from any of your friends in the Cuban exile

24 community that may have implicated any one of the old Cuban

25 exiles in the assassination?

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1

Mir. Espinosa. No, never.

2

Mr.

Blackmer. After the Bay of Pigs, what was tre

3 reaction to him

of the cuban exiles that you

knew? I am sure

4

they were very disappointed and were many of them violently

5 angry against Kennedy himself or the U.S. Government?

6

Mr. Espinosa.

Not really against him, against the CIA

7

mainly or against the government and not against Kennedy.

8

Mr. Blackmer. What was their general feeling as the

9 cause of the failure of the Bay of Pigs?

10

Mr. Espinosa. The CIA.

11

Mr. Blackmer. How do you mean?

• 12

Mr. Espinosa. Nell, should I go into this a little?

13

Mr. Blackmer. Yes, I think so.

14

Mr. Espinosa. When the question was risen by the pilots

15 in Guatemala, if you are going to go to the Bay, go in with a

16 B-25 or B-26. B-26, let us say, is a tactical somoer plane

17 and now this kind of plane, if I remember, it has eight

1850-caliber machine

guns. in

the nose and two in the tail and so

19 on.

20

And in order for this plane to fly from Guatemala to Cuba

21 and be able

to have a feeder for 30 minutes operation

in

the

22 area and bomb or machine gun for 30 minutes and come back to

23 Guatemala, all of this ammunition and all of the machine guns

24 have to be taken from the plane and put additional gasoline

25 tanks in.:

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So, the question was aroused -- and how do you say in

2 English -- it was raised of what happens when we get there

3 without any fighter protection and the planes are going to

4 be

in the air and

they

are going to be knocked down?

5

So, the answer to that was that there were going to be

6 two or three bombing raids and one in San Antonio Bay in

7 Havana and another one in another place and another one in

8 Valdo Beach at the airport, and just destroy it and make it a

9 pretentious strike and destroy Castro's air force on the

10 ground.

11

So, everybody was very content with this explanation, and

12 the strike took over and Roa, who was a Cuban ambassador to

13 the United Nations, made a big fuss at the time. So, there

14 was

a big fuss

in the United Nations and they came up with the

15 pictures of the planes, and then it was found that this story

16 that the air force had been bombed by Cuban pilots belonging to

17 Fidel Castro's army who had defected, it was a lie because

18 the models of the cuban planes were a different model;

19 like you have a DC-9B or DC-9C, or is that right?

20

So, when Stevenson, who was ambassador to the United

21 Nations - when he went to kennedy and the third strike was

22 called off, which left Castro with about two or three planes

23 were left as a consequence of the Stevenson convincing

24 the president at a time to call off

25

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1 the third raid; so consequently we lost all of the planes.

2

Mr. Blackmer. Is that one of the specific reasons why the

3 invasion failed?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I would think so.

Mr. Blackmer. Because Castro's air force was able to

6 annihilate the bombers and also the supply ships?

7

Mr. Espinosa. As long as

we had a boat we could really

8 take and maintain a piece of land over there until the forces

9 of the Organization of American States would come in, and as I

10 understood by friends of mine who were there, all of the ships,

11 the battle ships were right there and the carrier and the

12 whole thing.

13

So, I guess the whole thing was that somehow people

14 thought it was as usual, the usual CIA screwed-up thing, and

15 they thought it was Stevenson who really precipitated the

16 whole thing. But nobody -- maybe because they were sympa-

17 thetic, but nobody bothered about blaming Kennedy for it.

18

Mr. Blackmer. So, it was your feeling at the time that

19 the CIA was noted for inefficient operations. In your

20 training, did you feel like you were given

adequate and

21 sufficient training?

22

Mr. Espinosa. As I said to you the other day, I did, and

23.300 guys did, but not the whole force that invaded Cuba. And

24 then this might not have been a CIA decision and might have

25

been a decision

saying you have to get the guys over there and

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1 it is now or never.

2

So, what I am saying is, as I said to you the other day,

3 it is the fault of the Cubans. If we had gotten in there in

4 the beginning and so on and so on.

5

Mr. Blackmer. Did many Cubans understand this to be the

6 situation; that the failure should fall on their shoulders?

7

Mr. Espinosa. They were all heroes, even if they never

8

saw a gun in their lives. They are all heroes, and so you have

9 to blame things on other people and not on yourselves, and the

10 main reason why we failed should fall upon our shoulders to

11 begin with.

12

Mr. Blackmer. It is your testimony then that you par-

13 ticipated in an infiltration before the Bay of Pigs, and

14 after the Bay of Pigs you were on three or four more infil-

15 trations into Cuba?

16

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

17

Mr. Blackmer. And as I recall, what we are trying

18 to do today is get on the record all of the things we had

19 discussed in our interview with you.

20

Mr. Espinosa. Let me tell you something. There was a

file somewhere with the days and the people that went into

22 this infiltration,

and you didn't do that because. I have

23 seen it many, many years ago.

24

25

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1

Mr. Blackmer. where exactly did you see this file?

2

Mr. Espinosa.

I saw

it and I was

going with

somebody who

3 was

a civil servant and he snowed it to

me as a ravor out 1

4 know there

is a file.

5

Mr. Blackmer. And this file you säw, where was it, in

6 Miami?

7

Mr. Espinosa. No, I didn't see it in Miami.

8

Mr. Blackmer.

would you like to tell us where you saw

9 it?

10

Mr. Espinosa. No.

11

Mr. Blackmer. And to your knowledge it details each one

12 of the operations that you personally were involved in?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, and the persons involved and

friends

14 of mine and people involved in the other operations with

me

15 from the CIA and the whole thing.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Is it your feeling that, as you expressed

17 the other day, that these subsequent operations were merely

18 done by the CIA just

to keep control or taos on some of the

19 Cubans?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Either that or to get us killed, one thing

21 or the other.

22

Mr. Blackmer. And you

felt that the operations them-

23 selves ware meaningless?

24

Mr: Espinosa.

Not only that; you two have

been

in the

25 army, is that right? And you know, you can understand that.

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1 Anyway, if you have a box of 30 caliber machina gun

2 ammunition, you know exactly, you know when you open the

3 ammunition box you are going to find the required ammunition

4 and when you start going on the operation and you open up a 30

5 caliber munitions box and you

start finding 45 caliber

6 ammunition, you start wondering because these things come like

.7 that.

8

After a few years they take them away because it is

like

9 a prescription in a pharmacy and they deliver them to you from

10 an army camp or from an army depot or something, and what it

11

says outside, believe me, you will find inside.

12

If you do not find inside what is outside, if you do not

13 find it, you wonder who changed it and why was it changed?

14

Mr. Blackmer. How large were the groups that you

15. infiltrated with?

16

Mr. Espinosa.

small groups, three or four.

17

Mr. Blackiner. And were you parachuted in or were you

18 brought in by sea?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

We were always taken in by sea. The name

20 of that Frank I mentioned before it Frank Bernardino.

21

Mr:

Blackmer. This was an individual you

knew?

22

MP .

Espinosa. He was

a good friend of Artime.

23

Mr. Blackmer. And Cubela?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25

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1

Mr. Blackmer.

In

February of 1963 there was a story

2 circulated that certain Russian technicians were hiding

3 in the hills in

Cuba and that they wanted to defect.

As

4 a result. of this a man by the name of Eddie Bayo or Eduardo

5 Perez, with 10 other men, were infiltrated into Cuba. They

6 were never seen again.

7

Had you heard during the time this story about the

8 Russian

technicians?

9

Mr. Espinosa. It is the first time that I heard of it

10 at the time, yes.

11

Mr. Blackmer.. That the Russians were in Cuba; but had

12 you heard

any of them were hiding and ready to defect?

13

Mr. Espinosa. No.

14

Mr. Blackmer. What had you heard about the Russian

15 technicians

at the time?

16

Mr. Espinosa. Well, what I heard at the time was that

17 long before that time, long before 1963, there was Alphonzo

18 Carol and there was Siva -- the last name, and I cannot

19 remember the first name -- and they were in a CIA mission in

20 Cuba and they reported to the CIA, or at least they said they

21

were

technicians

or they were putting things together and

they

22

23

24

25

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I didn't know exactly what it was, so they were not briefed

For

2 tiat particular mission and so I have heard.

3

'ir.

Blackmer. Mas this before 1962?

4

Mr. Espinosa.

•Before 1962, yes.

5

Mr. Blackmer. Was it before the Say of Pigs?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Before the say of Pigs.

7

Mr. Blackmer. But you had not heard of that other story.

8

Mr. Espinosa. The first time I heard about this story

9 about the russians in the hills is now.

10

vir. Blackmer. And you were aware of General Bayo Coscaya,.

11 the general who trained Castro?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I have heard about the old man, yes.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Did you personally know him?

14

Mr. Espinosa. No.

15

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever see him?

16

Mr. Espinosa. No.

17

Blackmer. Nere you

aware of any children he nay have

18 had?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No.

20

Mr. Blackmer.

And you do not know Eddie Bayo or Eduardo

21 Perez?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Blackmer. I think John Hornbeck would

24 like to ask a few questions, especially about cubela and your

25 relationship with him.

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1 John.

2

Mr.. Hornbeck. Can you

state the first time that you met

3 Rolando Cubela and what your relationship was with

him in

4 Cuba?

5

Mr. Espinosa. I must have met Rolando when I was about

6 12 or 13 years old. because he used to go, or we used to have a

7 very good

protestant school in the city in which I was born.

8 And a lot of people from all over Cuba used to go there to get

9 an education.

10

He was going to this

school and I met him at that time,.

11 and I was 12 or 13 and he must have been 15 or 16 years old at

12 that time.

13

Mr. Hornbeck, Were you friendly with any of

his

14 relatives and was he friendly with any of your relatives?

15

Mr. Espinosa. I was friendly with his father and with

16 his mother and mainly with his brother, and his

father, I saw

17 him and he was always lost somewhere and I was very friendly.

18 with his mother and with his sister, Cari.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. After this

first

schooling with Rolando,

20 did you continue to stay in contact with him?

21.

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, mainly because he was a very good

22 friend

of

Jose Antonio Echeverria.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. And I take it Echeverria was a good friend

24 of yours?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, we used to live about 20 minutes

from

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1 each other.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. Did the three of you attent any schools of

3 higher education?

4

Mr: Espinosa. Ne all went to the University of Havana.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. Were all three of you there at

6 approximately the

same

time?

7

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, they were there before I was there

8 and by the time I got there they were big shoes already..

9

Mr. Hornbeck, What was Cubela's course of study at the

10 University and what political activities at the University was

11 he engaged in?

12

Mr. Espinosa. It is funny, Rolando started to be a

13 doctor and he was

studying to be a doctor.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. You are speaking of a medical doctor?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, and I do not know whether he

16 graduated or not

and his political activities

were very, very

17 limited in the sense that he would sort of follow the

18 activities of Antonio mainly.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. And was this their pattern at the

20 University when you arrived, that echeverria was a real leader

21

and Cubela was associated with him?

22

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. What year did you first enter che

24 University?

25

Mr. Espinosa: 1954.

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1

Mr. Hornbeck. And was the University a strongly

2 political kind of institution?

3

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, very much.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. And you graduated from the University?

5

Mr. Espinosa: No, I was

there one year and it was that

6 we had a

lot of fights with the police and shoot-outs and

7 like.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. What was the main contention between the

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 students and the

police regime at that time?

2

Mr. Espinosa.

Dictatorship, democracy and the trouble we

3 were having with a dictator you don't like and the Cubans

nave

4 Castro now.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. Who was the dictator at that time?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Batista.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. And who were the students supporting if

8 there was anyone candidate?

9

Mr. Espinosa. What is that?

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Who did the students support or was it

11 just against Batista?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Mainly the last president, Prio. There

13 was a lot of good nature and idealogical politicking in the

14 University, and there was a lot of politicking done by other

15 guys who had been in the University for a long time and the

16 kind of students who never graduated, professional students;

17 and I think prio was to butter them up and keep them flaming,

18 and there were different sections.

19

Sut in general, everybody liked prio and there was a

20 democratic government and here

came Castro and he screwed it

21 up.

22

Mr. Hornbeck, When you left the University, were Cubela

23 and Echeverria still at the University?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mr. Hornbeck.

Did

there come a time when you joined them

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1 in any anti-castro activity or anti-Batista activities?

2 Mr. Espinosa. I will explain to you. I was in the

3 University for one year and I didn't study, and all we did the

4 whole time was

just trying to get something going against

5. Batista. There were so many clashes with the police and

6 people shot and this and that.

7

And my father took me out and sent me to LSU. I stayed

8 there one year and then I became of age, 18, and my grand-

9 father died, and so I decided to quit and go on andtake over

10 the ranch that my grandfather had left me at the time.

11

So, I went over there and minding my own business and

12 working and not messing in politics and l used to spend three

13 or four weeks over there or 40 days and then go to Havana for

14 a weekend or three or four days. And then one time l went to

15

Havana and Rolando called me and he had just--or Antonio had

16 just been to Mexico to see Castro and they had a meeting in

17 Mexico.

18

So, he said, "we are going to have a meeting with about

19. 10 or 12 guys in the University and Jose Antonio told me to.

call

20 you."

21

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you

tell us approximately what year

22 this was?

23

Mr. Espinosa. 1956.

This was the day before Colonel

24. Blanco was shot, the day before he was shot.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you identify what position he held?

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1

Mr. Espinosa. Who is that?

2

Mr. Hornbeck. Blanco.

3

Mr. Espinosa. He was head of military intelligence.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Under the Batista regime?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

6

Mr. Hornbeck.

And that day, what

-=..

7

Mr. Espinosa. That day Rolando called me and he said, "We

8 are going to meet at the square in the University at 1:10

9 o'clock, and jose Antonio told me to call you." And so I got

10 over there and we were about 10 or 12 guys, and Castro was

11 going to come, and he sent me regards from the guy who was

12 killed and we had to start really cracking and getting things

13 done over there, like shooting the big guys or chief of police

14 and so on; and military intelligence and all of that.

15

So, we made three groups of four people each, and I can

16 remember who was there in case you want the names, but I don't

17 think it is of interest to you because most of them are dead,

18 and maybe except for Rolando.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. If you can remember the groups and what

20 targets those particular groups had.

21

Mr. Espinosa. The people who were there were Rolando,

22 Antonio, Machin and Machado.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Was that his first name?

24

• Mr. Espinosa. No, it was his last name, and I can't.

25 remember his first name. There was a Rodriquez.

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Mr. Hornbeck, What was the first name?

2.

Mr. Espinosa. Nutosa. There was Joe Westbrook and there

3 was--I cannot remember his name now and he is dead anyway, and

4 all of the people that were

there.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. So, did

the groups divide into these

four

6 areas with specific targets

in mind?

7

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, one group was going to take care of

8 Usalace who was chief of police and we were the youngest ones

9 and we got the

easiest one, who was Blanco Irco, and then the

10 others were together going to take care of Taberinalla.

11

Mr. Hornbeck, What position did he hold?

12

Mr. Espinosa. The army chief.

13

Mr.. Hornbeck, Were any of these groups successful in

14 carrying out their targets?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

16

Mr. Hornbeck.

Of the groups, which ones were successful?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Our group; we were the one who got lucky

18 first.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. What was to be your particular role in the

20 assassination of Blanco Irco?

21

Mr.

Espinosa. Just to stay in the car and worked with a

22 gun over there to

see: if someone was coming.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you describe just briefly

what

24 occurred the day he was killed?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Rolando called me and I was not at home.

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1 I was

at my girlfriend's, and it was a Saturday, and he called

2 me

over there and he wanted to pick me up and ve took ny car

3 and we picked up two guys and a hand grenade.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Rifles or pistols?

5

Mr. Espinosa.

TwO

pistols, one 45 and one a Spanish

6 Start, and then we went to pick up carbo, Pedro Carbo--that is

7 the last name and we gave each other a rendezvous at 10:00

8 o'clock. I left Rolando at his hone and I went home and I

9 took a nap and I took a shower and I went there at 10:00

10 o'clock and they iere not there.

11

So, I went to three or four different places

where we

12 were supposed to be because the guy was supposed to be there,

13 and I thought maybe I was late or they were early. I thought

14 it was my fault and I couldn't find him and about half past 12

15 or 10:00 o'clock, I said, "well, nothing happened," and I

16 don't know what happened and I went to sleep. The rext

17 morning I just heard on the radio that they got the guy.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. After that particular event, what kind of

19 activities

against the Batista regine did you engage in with

20

Rolando and Echeverria?

21

Mr. Espinosa. Let me try to synchronize because then 1

22 had to leave the country.

23

Mr: Hornbeck. He was immediately suspected?

24

Mr. Espinosa. He was not

immediately suspected. At the

•25 time we were so young and

I don't think they would suspect us

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1

and they were thinking of old gangsters,

and some of his

2 professional students that were there.

Actually, I think that

3 they got Cubela but anyway at that time he was out of the

4 country.

5

Mr.. Hornbeck. Do you know where he went?

6

Mr. Espinosa. He went to Miami. I think for a long time

7 I didn't see him

and the other people were

trying to carry on

8 with their targets, and I wasn't in contact with Antonio for

9 about a year. Then, he called me one day and we had a meeting

10 and we were talking about making an assault on the Presi

11 dential Palace

and that is the last time that I saw him.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately what was the plan date of

13 the assault on the palace?

14

• Mr. Espinosa. I think he got a letter--I am sure--from

15 Castro that he showed to all of us who were there at

that

16 meeting that day, and the letter was saying, "well, after 120

17 days or 90 days or 200 days that I have been

in the Sierra

18. Mastros, in the hills, you haven't done anything yet."

19

It was a kind of a letter that was really trying to make

20 him

feel like a shit, and I know this was a much more

21 complicated thing and it was only going to be the students who

22 were going to do it.

23

Then, in came

people from other organizations and

24 relatives.

in the other organizations, the far right, and

25 ex-politicians like Sandro and people like that and I saw him

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1 that day and he said, "I will be in touch with you," and n

2 never got in touch wiüh me.

3

Mr. Hornbeck. Did there come a time when Cubela returned

4 to Miami?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

6

•Mr. Hornbeck. Can you

tell us approximately when that

7 was?

• Mr. Espinosa. It must have been the end of 1957.

9

Mr. Hornbeak. And from the period?

10

Mr. Espinosa. It was the middle of 157, three or four

11. months after that time of the Presidential Palace.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. From the period of mid '57 through the

13 first part of 1959, what was your association with Cubela?

14

Mr. Espinosa. You see,

everybody was so burned up all of

15 the time in Havana, everybody had to go to the hills and I had

16 a very good relationship with the son of the actual president

17 of the senate in cuba at the time, and he was

a very good

18 friend of mine.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Who was that?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Alfred Gonzalez.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. Would

you tell us about the old man first?

22

Mr. Espinosa. The old man was Anselmo Alliegro and he

23 was president of

the senate at the time, and he was one of the

24 big shots.

I met his step-son when I was in Louisianna State

25 and we were close

friends.

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dog fols

edm

ends

53

1

So, 1 las

somebody who could be in Havana all of the

time

2 and more or less

protected

and I could have the liberty to go.

3 places and meet people and

pass

messages and go back to the

4 hills and so on without nuch risk of anything nappening to me.

5

Mir. Hornbeck. So, where was Rolando Cubela during this

6 period then up until the time when Batista left the first of

7 January?

Mr. Espinosa. He was in the hills all of the time.

Mr. Hornbeck. What was his group and what relation did

10 they have with the castro group?

Mr. Espinosa. They

had no relation at all.

9

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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ar. hornbeck. They were fighting independently?

2

Mr. Espinosa. Independently, and trying

get to Havana

3 verore Castro did, and so you have an idea what the realities

4 were at the time, when Castro: sent Che Guevara from Oriente

5 Province to the province of

Santa Clara. And I think that he

6 hac

150 or 160 men.

7

In Santa Clara there were plenty of people fighting,

8 because this was not such

an isolated place as Oriente nas,

9 and

it was not only the student group; there ias also the

10 people of the william Morgan group which were the third front,

11 and they alone with 2,500 people. But Castro wanted to have a

12 chair over there somehow to control the situation, and one of

13 the things, or the orders was to dispose of Rolando Menoya.

14

Mr. Hornbeck, You are saying one of the missions of che

15 Guevara was to eliminate or kill both Menoya and cubela so

16

that castro would de the only leader?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

18

Mr. nornbeck. How do you

have that information?

19

Mr. Espinosa. From Cubela and from other peogle who vere

20 Enere at the time, because the thing is that somehow they

21. found out by some of the students from the University of

22 Oriente who were with Castro.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. was there any confrontation with either

24 Che Guevara or Castro?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Che arrived there and took him and put nim

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1 under cuscody..

so there was another thing baok and forth fron

2 Oriente to Santa Clara until the suy was relieved, out me was

3 three or four days under custroy.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately what time period was this;

5 can you pinpoint that for us?

6

Mr. Espinosa. This would have been October, September or

October of 1958.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. Batista leaves Havana approximately the

9 first of january of 1959?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. What arrangements, if any, were made

12 between the various groups then?

13

14

Mr. Espinosa. Nothing.

Nr. Hornbeck. How

did it come about that Fidel Castro

15

then

came to power and Cubela and Menoya and some of the other

leadars

did not come to power?

17

Mr. Espinosa. I con't know. I always vondered about

18 that myself. And

as I said to you, I used to be in the

19 hospital room with rolando at the time when he vas wounded,

20 when he was soing through the operation with the arm, ano I

21. was there when Castro came to see him, and when Che came to

22

see him

and Raul Castro came to see him, and when

the other

23

leacers from the student groups came to sae him. They had

24 discussions about this and, first of all, they were all of the

25 people, wiser peogle, better trained by the communists of

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1 course, and they knew exactly what we were doing and we didn't

2 know exactly what we were doing. we were fighting a war and

3 once the war was over, we didn't know what to do and we didn't

4 have any ambition of power.

5

And when I say "we," I don't count and I am talking about

6 the people who were there; mostly i am talking about Rolando.

7 and there was no ambition of power or any of that. There

was

8 just to set the guy out and that is it. Our aim was to stoo,

9 when these

people's aims were very well planned for far ahead.

10

iir. Hornbeck. Did there come a time when you and Cubela

11

split as

to your views of Castro?

12

Mr. Espinosa: Yes.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us approximately when that

14 happened, and

can you describe how you came apart?

15

vir. Espinosa. well, as i said at the beginning, when he

16 caine into fiavana, immeciately they called me and they said,

17 "Rolando is going to be here in about one hour and they want

18 you to be at the university.

19

he came in 15 or 20 minutes late, and he said

to me, 1

20 think we are going to have a lot of problems with Castro and

21. the 26th of July as a symbolic thing, because so many of our.

22 friends got killed on the attack of

the Presidential Palace,

23 and Antonio was killed. that day, and not there but another

24 part of Havana, and we went and took the Presidential Palace

25 as a gesture

and a symbolic thing.

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The first two or three months we were together all of the

time. Then I started aisagreeing with him on things, and 1

guess I was a wise ass

the time, especially about the

4 things that we were letting Castro get away with, especially

5 where he had to take absolute power over everything and we

6 were

getting oull shit in return.

And the fact was I never

I liked the guy; and as a matter of fact, I hated him, and I

8 never knew his politics because I don't krow.

9

Some

people find out their wives or girls are fooling

10 around with somebody else for two or three years, and just

11 from the beginning I thought this was going the wrong way. So

12 I started having arguments with Rolando and asking for

13 explanations

from hin, because this was not what we fought for

14 and not what our friends died for, and "So you are becoming

15

accomplice of Castro and I cannot understand this."

16

He said, "Why do you say that, and why are you putting up

17 with this?"

18

I said, "and

they are taking land away from people and

19 they are shooting soldiers who never shot in the whole war and

20 just shooting. them and there was no trial, and I have seen

tha

21 trial's and they were mockeries, and whether they were guilty

22 or not guilty, they got shot and that is it."

23

so he wouldn't give me the right answers, and he would

24 say, "well, there is a revolution." And I said, "I don't

25 understand that,

Rolando, and I don't understand it, and I

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1 don't understand the things that are happenina: and you are

2 being an accomplice because you are in a position to co

3 something and you

are not doing anything, and you are playing

4 his ball game."

5

In the beginning we discussed these matters, and

then we

6 started

getting very close in, and I really didn't understand

I it. And to the point one day we had a discussion in my house

8 and he told my mother, "when your son goes to jail, then call

9 me," and I said, "I won't call you."

10

Mr. Hornback. Rolando said that to your mother?

11

12

Mr.. Espinosa. Yes.

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately when did you leave Havana?

13

Mr. Espinosa. I left Havana in 1959.

14

Mr. Hornoeck. When in 1959?

15

Mr. Espinosa.

I don't know if it was

october or

16 September or

november;

somewhere between Cctober and December.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. During

the period of time that you came to

18 the United States and went to train in the bay of Pigs and

19 came back to the ünited States, did you have any contact with

20 Cubela?

21

Mr. Espinosa. well, some guys and myself, we thought at

22 the time we were allowed to go to south America and I and some

23. others were joing to Panama or licaragua, and so we got the

24 idea -- and there is one thing I forgot to tell you.

25.:

At the beginning when things began, there was a lot of

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1 friction vith the 26th of July, and me took all of the weacons.

2 from an arsenal in some base outside of lavana, and it must

3 nave been 500 w-1 rifles and

few 50-calicer machine guns and

4 copule of hundred of Thonpson submachine duns, and some

5

mortars, a 190 tank gun, and somenow all of the things vere

6 nidden by me.

7

Rolando told me to hide it in a place, that we were going

8 to need it one day. So I hid it in my house, and we had a

9 very

big house, so big that when they came looking for these

10 they couldn't find it because it was like an old castle and

11 there were like hidden doors, hidden panels and things like

12 that.

13

They came looking for it and they didn't find it, and so

14 about two or three weeks after that I put the whole thing

in a

15

truck and took it to a resort very near to where I was born,

16 in

Varadero.

17

so I took it over there and we decided, a few guys who

18 were going to do something, go to the hills or do something,

19 and we came out with this idea to go to some other country and

20 do something so we could get away and cover our activities.

21

we got caught.

22.

Mr. Hornbeck. By whom?

23

Mr. Espinosa. By Castro.

24

Ne got caught, and we were taken to Military

25 Intelligence, and there were about six or seven of us, and

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1 they got all the weapons. Someone squealed and they

2 infiltrated somebody in the group. And I don't know what vas

3 going to happen, out it was a little bit scary at the time,

4 and so we were uncommunicated for several days and we were

5 questioned, and we were sticking to our story we going to

6 Guatemala. or someplace

else.

And I can't remember now,

anc

7 Rolando was in Spain and my mother called him and he came over

8 and he got us out.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Was there any particular reason he was

in

10 Spain at that time?

11

Mr. Espinosa. He was a playboy.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. It had nothing to do with Castro?

13.

Mr. Espinosa. No. He went over there to have a good

time, and so actually the threat that he made, "Call me and I

15 will help you,"

and my mother called him and he came over and

16

he got us out.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. After your

period in the United States,

18 did you have any contact with him?.

19

Mr. Espinosa. No. The only time I had contact was when

20 I told you that I went to paris and these people contacted me.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. I am going to get to that, and i want to

22 establish whether or not, during the years that you wererin

23

the united

States

and training for the Bay of Pigs and were in

•24 New York, that you had no direct contact with him and did you

25 have any indirect contact through mutual friends?

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iir.

Espinosa.

Never.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately what year dig you do to

3 Spain?

4

Mr. Espinosa.

I went to Spain -- you mean now, in

the

5 last few years?

6

Mr. Hornbeck. No.

7

Mr. Espinosa.

I never went to Spain.

I told you the

8 other day.

9

iir. Hornbeck. Approximately what year did you go to

10 Paris?

11

Mr. Espinosa. I went to Paris in 1964 or 1965.

12

Mr. Hornbeck, Would it help you to know --

13

Mr. Espinosa. I think it was 1964 or '65.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Would it refresh your memory that,

15 according to government records, you came to New York and

16 first contacted

Immigration sometime approximately in June or

17 thereabouts in 1965?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

19

Mr. Hornbeck..

Now would your New York trip then help

20 your memory as to when you first went to Paris?

21

ir. Espinosa.

well, I came back to lew York from Paris

22 and I contacted

then innediately, and so this must have been

23. five days before or six days before.

24

Mr. Hornback. Can you tell us why you went to paris?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Mo. It was just a trip and I went to

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1 Paris.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. You were

engaged

aù that time in no anti-

3 Castro

activities?

4

Mr:

Espinosa. Mothing.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. You were

not working for the CIA at that

6

time?

7

Mr.

Espinosa. No.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately when did you end your

9 services or employment with the CIA?

10

Mir.

Espinosa.

I would say in the and of 1951.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. when you arrived in Paris, did you have a

12 contact who gave you some information about

Cubela?

13

Mir. Espinosa.

Yes.

14

Mir. Hornbeck. What was the name of that contact?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Jose irasancos.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. How long had you known Jose Irascancos?

17

Mir. Espinosa. All of my life.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. shat was his position in Paris at the time

19 that you met him in 1965?

20

Mr. Espinosa. He was working at the Cuban Consulate.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. How long had he been with

the Cuban

22 Consulate in Paris, if you ‹now?

23

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know, out for a couple of years or

24 three at the time.

25

vir. Hornbeck. I assume by the fact that he was working

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1 abroad in the cuban Consulate that he enjoyed some confidence

2 witn

the Castro government?

3

...._tr. Espinosa.. I don't know about that. I think at tha

4 time the government wasn't established

enough to really clano

5 down on the people that they should

or should not have in

6 their consulates, and there were so many things to put

7 together over there and it was a very bad situation, and

8 otherwise,

he wouldn't have been there and they hadn't clamped

9 down.

10

• Mr. Hornbeck. What information did he relate to you that

11 involved Rolando Cubela?

12

Mr. Espinosa. He told me that he had seen Cubela in

13 Paris; that there

was something going on but he didn't want

14 tell me, and he

wanted somebody else to tell me the whole

15 thing.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. Is there some reason why he didn't want to

17 relate the story to you?

18

Mir. Espinosa.

Because he

didn't know much about it but

19 heknew they had tried to get ahold of me but he said,

20 "Polando is involued with the CIA and there

is something

21 happening, and I think you should see robreno.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. Could

you identify Robreno for us, as to

23 who he is and where he was from and what was your relationshio

24 with him.

25

Mr. Espinosa.

His

name is George Robreno and ha is

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punk.

2

Hir. Hornbeck. When you say "punk," do you nean he had

3

some criminal

background?

4

Mr. Espinosa.

I don't know, but he is

a delinquent, let

5 us put it that way. I am not a full-time delinquent as he is.

6 tie was involved

with the student movement in havana

and he

7 knew Rolando very well.

8

Mr. Hornbeck.. When you were describing him as a

9 delinquent, do you mean

ne would angage in crime or do

10

anything for money, or what is it?

11

Mr. Espinosa. He was a bad boy; and do you know what

12 bad boy is?

He was a bad boy. When he used to be a kid, if

13

there was a blind

man crossing a street. with a stick, he would

14 take the stick from the blind man, is that right? That is the

15 kind of thing he would do when he was a kid and man, what he

16 grew up to be.

17

He was with Castro's government

and he was at one point

18 the head of some revolutionary tribunals and he carried out a

19

lot of death sentences.

20

Mr. Hornbeck.

what was he doing at the time that you

21 heard his name in 1965?

22

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know what he was doing in Madric,

23 but I know that he had gotten into so many groblems wich the

24

government in Cuba that they just said, "Okay," and they put

25 him into prison for something, and I don't know exactly that

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1. it was, and they said, Okay, either you stay here forever or

2 you leave the country and wa don't vant you here anymore.:

3

ür. Hornbeck. He was living in Madrid at the time

YOU

4 were in Paris?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. And when Rolando started his thing

6. with

the CiA, 1 suess he was talking to him, too.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. How were you going to meet him? were you

8 going to jo to Spain?

9

•¡ir. Espinosa. I was going to go to spain. Aù the time I

10 had one of his alien American passports, since I never had my

11 own passport because the Spanish government, it would take

12 them a mönth --

13

Mr. Hornbeck. So the CIA originally took your passport

14

from you?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes:

16

Mr: Hornbeck. were you in touch with the CIA at all when

17 you wera in Paris?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

• No.

19

Mr. hornbeck. All right. So you did not get to Spain?

20

Mir. Espinosa.

I didn't get to Spain. and I called nim

on the telephone and I said "I am sending you a ticket.

Come

22 over and see me in Paris." And he was the first one no told

23 me the story.

24

Mir. Hornbeck.

can you just relate to us, in summary,

25. what he told you about this particular involvement of cubela?

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Ur. Espinosa. That Cubela had been talking to some CIA

2 people; that there nas goine to be

an uprising or a coup or

3 something down in cuba led oy cubela and a few other people

4 who were in the government at the time, or in the army, ano

5 that

for some reason Cubela didn't trust williamson in Spain.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you identify no Wiilianson was?

7

Nir. Espinosa. What I had been led to believe, milliamson

8 was

nead of the CIA in Spain at the time.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Was there a reason given to you as to ny

10 Cubela did not trust him?

11

Mr. Espinosa.. Yes.

He said to me that he was living --

12 first he was

an alcoholic and living with this Cuban girl who

13 had taken information fron him, taken files with her and went

14

back to cuba.

15

it. hornbeck. This is information that you heard?

16

Mr. Espinosa. This is what they told ne; why rolando

17 didn't want to speak to williamson any longer.

18

Mr. Hornbeck.

You are setting this information from

19 Cubela?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

And how much truth is involved

in

21 this I can't say. So that Rolando didn't want to talk to nim

22 anymore and that I should come over here as a good CIA man.

23 and I said "I am no longer with the CIA," and they said "re

24 want you to get in touch with them

and tell them all of this."

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Now, had your original contact in Paris

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1 mentioned to you he thought you vere in the cia?

2

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

3

Hir. Hornoeck. Had ne called you to come to

paris or jou

4. just

came to

Paris incependently?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No. It was somebody that if I ever went

6 to Paris I was going to call.

7

vir. Hornbeck: So Paris was entirely your

idea?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Entirely a pleasure trip.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Nas there any particular reason way you

10 would spend your own personal noney to nave Cubela come to

11

Paris from Spain?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Still, you know, I think $150 or

13 something, for something as important as this, I could sand my

14 friend and

my country, it wasn't going to make such a big hole

15 in iny pocket.

16

Mr. Hornöeck. Did Cubela say anything about any soviets

17 in Cuba during this conversation?

18

Pir.

Espinosa.

No. They didn't say anything about

19 soviets in Cuba, but blanco --I cannot remember his first

20 name; we used to call him the crazy Blanco --I met him and

21 he was on his way to cuba from Prague, Czechoslovakia, and ie

22 was on his way from Russia to Cuba via Czechoslovakia and

23 Paris and he was the one who mentioned about the Russian

24 technicians; to make sure and to make sure to tell the CIA

25 that if there was going to be any kind of coublecrossing o

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this operation, they were soing to take care of these Russian

2 technicians

who were advisors, or whatever they were, who

were

3 in their particular place.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. All right. How did you know blanco?

5

rir. Espinosa. I knew him from cuba.

6

vir. Hornbeck. And was it just coincidence that blanco

I was coming through paris at the same time that you were there?

8

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. How did he know

how to contact you?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Secause anybody who would come to Paris

11 will always

contact this guy Trasancos; at least this kind of

12 people because we all knew each other from Cuba.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Had Blanco been with you and Cubela

in

14 activities prior to 1959?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

16

Mr. Hornoeck. When Blanco gave you this particular

17 information about the Soviet technicians, was there anyone

18 else

present during the conversation?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No, it was only he and I.

20

Mr. Hornbeck, were there any conversations between you,

21 Blanco and Robreno in Paris?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. And no conversations betveen you, slanco,

24

and Trasancos?

25

dir. Espinosa.

No. But there were conversations between

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1 Cubela, Irasancos and myself.

2

ur. nornoeck. Can

you

tell us what tne

conversation is?

3

Mr. Espinosa. The one I mentioned before, everything

4 that Cubela told me about the CIA and williamson in Spain he

5 said to me in front of Irasancos.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Is your testimony that there was then

•an

7 agreement between

the three of you that cubela needed to

8 change his CIA contact?

9

Mr.. Espinosa. I didn't agree to anything. All

I said,

10 was. they landed

the story on me in the middle of my Parisian

11

vacation, and because it was Rolando and it was something that

12 I could have some importance or sense in the future, I came

13 over here and I contacted them the best way I could...

14

Mir. Hornbeck. In other words, you were going to be the

15

messenger for the contacts they felt that they didn't have?

16

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, more or less, that was the idea.

17

vir. Hornbeck. And you then traveled

from Paris to lew

18 York?

19

Mir. Espinosa. That is right.

20

Mir. Hornback. And who pays for your ticket?

21

Mr. Espinosa. If I go to Paris and I live in the States,

22 I have to have a round-trip ticket.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. what I am getting at, so you understand

24 the purpose of the deposition, we nave to

ask as much detail

25. as possible,

and what I am really getting at is whether or not.

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1 the

cia paid for any part of this operation:

2

Mr. Espinosa. tic.

I went to bondon and then to paris

3 and then to come back to law York 15 days later, and this

4 happened when I was there, and I came back to

Hew York on my

5 ticket originally purchased by me, and I was never refunded by

6 CIA or any other government agency.

7

I got to New York and I contacted Mr. Cavasantos.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. He was an officer with the Immigration

9

service?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. And you had some previous relationship; is

12 that true?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us briefly what that was?

15

Mir. Espinosa.

He lifted two bans against traveling, and

16.

all the things that I mentioned before.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. You first contacted him, and what did you

18

tell him?

19

Mr. Espinosa. I said, "I have to contact someone in the

20 CIA, and of course I have no idea how to contact anybody."

2.1

So he said, "Okay." He picked up

the telephone and he

22

called somebody in the FBI office

in New York and he sent me

23 to see this fellow.

24

Mr. Hornbeck. This is first the FBI?

25

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

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Air. hornbeck. Did you so to the fol office or did the

2 agents

come tO

see you?

3

Mr. Espinosa. I went to the FEl office.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. How many agents did you talk to?

5

Mr. Espinosa. I talked to one

fellow.

6

Mr. Hornbeck.

now much of the cubela's story that you

7 learned in Paris did you relate to him?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Nothing.

9

fir. Horribeck. What did you tell him, basically?

10

Mr. Espinosa. I told him, I guess he must have spoken to

11 Cavasantos before, and I said, "Look, I just came from Europe;

12 there is

something happening and I would have to contact

13 someone in the CIA, and I used to work for them and I was

14

involved in the Bay of Pigs. Anything you want to check what

15

I am

telling you, you can check with that."

16

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you mention Cubela's name to either

17 Cavasantos or to the FBI?

18

Mr. Espinosa. Maybe; I can't say for sure, but maybe.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Your best memory is that you did not

20 discuss

much of the details?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. At some point were you put in contact

with

23

the CIA?

24

tir. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mir. Hornbeck. Can you tell us where the meeting took

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1 place and now many people were present?

2

Mr. Espinosa. The meeting took place at the fel office

in lew York, and there was only one person present.

4

Mr.. Hornbeck.

This is someone

from the Agency?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Again, I assume he was.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Could

you physically describe this

7

individual?

8

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes. He was a man in the late forties or

9 early fifties, gray hair, and he must have been blond, but

10 very heavy

gray at the time, and blue eyes.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. Glasses?

12

Mr. Espinosa. No glasses. Very well fit and very

13 handsome guy.

14

Mr. Hornback.

Approximately how tall and how much did he

15 weigh?

16

Mr. Espinosa. He was, I would say, about 5'10" or 5'11"

17

170 pounds.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. During your conversation with this

19

individual, did

you relate all of the details of the

20

information that you had learned in Paris?

21

Mir. Espinosa. I did.

22

iir. Hornoeck. Did you include the portion told you by

23 Blanco about the alternative plan with the Soviet technicians?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mr. Hornoeck. What reaction, if any, dic you get from

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this particular indivicual?

2

Mr: Espinosa. He was a

very cool, composed man, and ne

3 said "I am going to washington and I will contaci you in the

4

next couple of days or three, mayoe, and mayce we will go to

5 Spain together or somebody will go with you."

6

I was so upset about this that I got a friend of nine in

7 New York, through Senator Javits, to set me a meeting in

8 washington here with some sub-secretary of foreign affairs in

9 charge of the cuban thing, and I never neard

from this

guy and

10 time was

going by, and I told this friend of mine and through

11 Javits he got me to come here and see this zuy,

and I came

12 here and I told him the whole story. And he said, "We will

13 get in touch with you," and they never did.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you have any idea who it was that you

15 met with in

washington?

16

Mr. Espinosa. lio.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever keep a diary or on a caro?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

I could find out eventually if i wanted

19.

t0.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you think that you might be able to do

21

that?

22

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes. I would have to call this guy and

23 have him call Javits and

trace the thing oack to the time when

24 it happened, but I am sure it can be traced.

25

Mr: Hornback. Do you remember the building where you

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1 came to in washington to speak with

this particular

2 individual?

3

tir. Espinosa. lio.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Your best memory is that it was some

5 official in

the State Department?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, it was some official in the state

7 Departinent;

some kind of sub-secretary or something in charge

8 of Cuban

affairs. But I was there and he didn't put me on to

9 some monkay room. I know I saw sonebody, the right person.

10

ir. Hornbeck. I assume that you did wait the two or

11 three days in New York before you contacted your friend to

12 reach Senator Javits?

13

Mr. Espinosa. I waited longer than that. I waited a

14 couple of weeks and nothing happened,

and then I got in

touch

15 with this guy because I knew he is very friendly with davits,

16 and I said, "I know you nave friends in rashington: and all of

17 that, and there is something that I have

to discuss."

18

vir. hornbech. Did you ever think about contacting the

19 CIA directly through one e:

your old contacts?

20

Mr. Espinosa. I never had any contacts. What contacos?

21 They are guys living in Miami for two or three or four months,

22 and one day they disappear, and "Freddy Gomez," and

you never

23 see him again, and maybe he

is

sent to Guatemala or central

24 Europe, or whatever, and then you see another guy and you

25 don't call them. They call you.

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"AS

1

Mr.

Hornbeck. was there any bad

reeling between you and

2 Ene

Agency when

you terminated

your relationsnip with then in

3

1961?

4

Pir

: Espinosa.

I don't know.

From my part it was a lot

5 of bad

feeling.

Mir. Hornbeck. You felt you had not been treated fairly

7 by the Agency?

8

Mr. Espinosa, Not me. I felt a lot of peogle got killed

9 for nothing.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. All right. After you came to washington

11

and discussed this particular. situation, what was the next

12 thing that you did?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Let me make a parenthesis now. This guy,

14 one of the reasons why I assumed he must

have been from the

15 CIA, is when I touched the thing about George Robreno,

16 immediately he said to me, "El Maga," this is like a name that

17 only people that are close to him or that know him very well

18 or fron the Agency would know his name.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Could you spell that?

20

Mr. Espinosa. M-a-g-a. It is magician in English.

And

21 he didn't have any accent when he said "El Maga."

22

Mr. Hornbeck.

You are discussing the conversation with

23 the fellow you assumed to be

from the Agency in New York when

24 you first arrived?

25

ir. Espinosa.

Yas.

And he was saying to me, "How much

2228

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1 do you trust what he saic?:

and I said You know how he is."

2 and he. said, "Yes, I know

ho he is, but the guy knew the

3 background of nim.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. When you mentioned Blanco, did the

5 individual you

assumed

tO

have been

from the Agency come up

6 with his nickname?

7

Mr. Espinosa. lo.

8

Mr. Hornbeck.

Did he act as though he knew who you were

9 talking acout?

10

Mr. Espinosa. No.

11

Mr: Hornbeck. Did he ask you for any identifying

12 information about blanco?

13

Mr. Espinosa. No.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. During this time then that you were in

15

washington in 1965, did you ever contact Mike Michaney to see

16

if ne coulc help in some fashion?

17

Mr. Espinosa. I would have contacted Mine MeLanay to

help de in

other things, out not to get me in contact with the

19 CIA.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you contact mike McLaney for any

21 social or personal reasons?

22

Mr. Espinosa.. At that time, no. For sure, every time

23 went to Miami, and all of the tine I lived in the States,

24

every time

I went to Miami I contacted Mike; every cllle.:

sut

25 I contacted him socially to have a drink or so whoring around

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1 or something; noching to

do up to tnat second attempt with the

2 piane, and inat as it.

3

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you return to lew York then after your

4 washington trip?

5

Ar. Espinosa. Yes.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you receive any contact from any

7 government

agency?

8

Pir. Espinosa. No.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. And that includes the FBI?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. So you did not hear from the FBI?

12

Mr. Espinosa. No.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. How long did you stay in New York, if you

14

can estimate?

15

Mr. Espinosa. I left lew York in 1957.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. So you spent the next approximately two

17

and a half years in lew York?

18

vir. Espinosa. No. I would say the next two years in ter

19 York, decause this was June or july of 1905, and I left in

20 March or Arpil of 1967; so a little bit less than a year.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you have any contact diractly or

22 indirectly with Cubela during the time that you were in New

23 York?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Did

you hear from Blanco or Rooreno or

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1 your contact in

Paris?

2

Nr. Espinosa. Yes.

Robreno wrote me a latter one time

3 asking me to out my name to à document, and ne wanted to gei a

4 visa

to come to the States and na wanted

me to sponsor hin and

5 he needed

two sponsors. And he wrote me a letter on a paper,

6 and I signed my name to the sponsorship, and that is the only

7 time.

8

tir. Hornoeck. Did he actually arrive, to your knowledge?

9

Mr. Espinosa. No,

they never gave him a visa.

10

ir. Hornbeck. Until the tine that Cubela was arrested,

11 did you have any information about him personally or about the

12 particular plot person?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Mothing whatsoever. In my mind I thought,

14. well, probably he got wise to the whole thing and just dropped

15 it, because some tine elapsed between

the time that I spoke to

16 his people in Paris and until the CIA and the time he dot

17 caught in Cuba.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Has your first knowledge that he was

19 arrested

from some public source or from a personal

source?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

Public source.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell what that was?

22

Mir. Espinosa. It was a newspaper.

23

Mr. Hornbeck.

Did you recognize the names of other

24 persons arrested with him?

25.

Mr. Espinosa.. I recognized the name of Blanco, and enera

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was somebody else arrested. And the first thing I read

about

2 it, there were four people arrested, and I knew blanco and

3 didn't know the others.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. I am sure then if you have the public

5 accounts of that trial, you know that cubela was not executed,

6 and dia you find that a strange event?

7

Mr. Espinosa. Yes and no.

8

vir. Hornbeck. Can you tell us way "yes" and "no?

9

Mr. Espinosa. "Yes," because, to iny knowledge, Castro

10 had never commuted

anybody's death sentence in Cuba yet, and

11 on the other hand, I knew he liked the guy very much.

12

Mr. Hornbeck.

It was a personal relationship between

13 Cubela and Castro?

14

lir. Espinosa.

Yes. Whatever it was, love, hate, or the

15 faggots --I don't know what it was -- out they had a

16 relationship, an

especial relationship between them.

17

vir. Hornbeck.. Can you give us any examples of a special

18 relationship between the two?

19

Mr. Espinosa. Well, I remember one time when Rolando

20 pulled a gun on Castro in front of his bodyguards and

21 everything and called hin every name in the book, and of

22 course nobody moved or said anything, but i thought when this

23. is over, he is going to 50 to

the can

forever, and nooning

24 happened to him.

25

Mr. Hornbeck.

I take it this is sometime still in 1959?

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Mr. Espinosa. This was at that time, and he just put his

2 arm on nim and he said

"You have such a temper" and talked hin

3 out of everything.

4

Mr.

Hornbeck. Mould you describe Cubela as an individual

5 having a very quick temper or very emotional person?

6

Mr. Espinosa. les,

extremely.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. Would you describe him as unstable?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Have you directly or indirectly raceived

10 any information about Cubela since the time that he was sant

11 to prison in Cuba?

12

Mr. Espinosa. No.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you have any information whether or not

14 he is still alive or anything?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

what I hear is that he is alive and

16 he is workingas a doctor and he is not having such a bac

17 life.

18

ir. hornbeck. How would you get this kind of

19

information?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Because I can't remember now, I think I

21 had this irom Irasancos in Paris, but there is some kind of --

22 I don't know if ne was a diplomat or if he is a French

23 engineer who is working in some kind of project in Cuba or was

24 working in some kind of a

project in cuba,

and know that

25

this parson knew Cubela's mother and sonenow news of him has

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1 gone back and forth to Europe from Cuba. I near he is vorking

2 as a coctor and the beginning was very bough, and then he is

3 working as a doctor and he is not having it so bad; but neis

4 alive and he is in prison.

5

Mr. Hornbeck.

Were you told of the method by which

6 Cubela was supposed to assassinate Castro?

7

Nr. Espinosa. Mo. I heard the story about the rifle

8 the telescopic site, and i had a story that he had met Artime,

9

walen of course I thought was stupid of him, and I had a story

10 that Artime had promised hin some boats through the cIA to get

11 him out.

12

I repeat to you today what I said the other day, the

13 whole thing doesn't make sense to me. And on one hand I hear

14 this, and of course it is very difficult to judge something

15 when you are being told by third parties, and on the one hand

16 I near that there is going to be an

insurrection, let others

17 call it that way, or a military uprising of certain

people

in

18 the country; and on the other hand I hear that Cubela is going

19

to shoot the guy. And if you are goins to shoot the guy and

20 there is going to be an insurrection, why do you need some

21 boats

to take you out?

22

Once

•you do that you have to stay in and

see it througa.

23 And you follow me, in there is going to be an

insurrection and

24 you are going to be a leader, how the nell are you going to

25 shoot the suy and tanks are going

through

the streets

and

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1 you are going to take. a

coat and leave the country?

2

There are a number of things that I tried to be very

3 10gical about, and I try to be a very logieal

person all oi

4 the time, but escecially when they are logical, I try to be

5 more logical and

I am objective about things. I don't

ô understand it.

7

Mr. Hornbeck..

When you heard these stories about Artine

8 being involved, or a rifle with a scope being involved, what

9 was the source of that information?

10

Mr. Espinosa. This I heard from

Rocreno.

11 Mr. Hornbeck. Was this during the same discussions in

12 Paris before New York?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Did Rubreno know Artime, to your

15 knowledge?

16

Mir. Espinosa. I don't know. I think maybe he was with

17 Rolando when he

had the meeting with Artime; maybe, but 1 am

18 not sure. But I know they had never been friends before.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Are you saying your information

from

20 Rubreno was that Artime met in Madrid with Cubela?

21

Mr. Espinosa..I can't remember if it was Madrid, but

22 positively that he had

met Cubela.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Nas your information that the CIA had

24 arranged this meeting, or did you have any knowledge of the

25 CIA at that time?

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Mir. Espinosa. lo. He vold me that ne had been in touen

2 with

the CIA

and he had been in touch with artime, but at the

3 moment I was led

to believe

it was the CIA who had arranged

4 the meeting, and I would have been surprised if that ias so.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. I want to be very specific as io tre

6 information that you are getting iron hoorano and irom any

7 other source.

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

9

vir. Hornbeck.

So just getting back to what me told you,

10 Robreno says to you, on the one hand Cubela has been in

touch

• 11 with williamson

from the CIA, and he also tells you Cubela has

12 met with Artime, and you are not sure whether rubreno tells

you that cubela

and Artime met in Madrid. Is that a correct

14

summary?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. He told me that they met, but

16 can't remember inether it was in Madrid or another place.

17

Mr. hornbeck. Has there anything about the use of a

18 rifle and a silencer by cubela that you would have found

19 strange in

an assassination plot to kill Castro?

20

Mr. Espinosa. I would have found it very strange because

21 Castro is

a touch guy and you can never hunt him with a rifle

22 in the sense you never know where he is going to be or whieh

23 street he is going

to be passing through. So I would think it

24 is very, very unlikely, and

especially Rolando knows this very

25

well, better than I do, that this is a kind of a guy that

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1 is practically impossible to hunt with a rifle.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. would the special relationnie you

3 discussed before between Castro and Cubela have presented sone

4 special opportunities for Cubela?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Incredibly special opportunities;

exceptionally special.

7

vir. hornbeck. Can you dive us something on that?

8

Mr. Espinosa.

Let us say one day Rolando could find out

9 that Castro was

in his home outside Havana, and he could

nave

10 gone over there at a day or night, and even at 5:00 o'clock in

11 the morning and tell the guards "I am going to see Castro,"

12 and they would have let him in without objection.

13

Mr. Blackmer.

You were friends with Carlos Hernandez?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

15

Mr. Blackmer. You went on two raids with him that were

16

aborted and you trained with him in Panama and Guatemala.

Did

17 you recognize that he had a special relationship with vanual

•18 Artime?

19

Mr.

Espinosa.. Yes.

20

Mr. Slackmer.. Do you know the extent of that?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

1O.

22

MT .

slackmer.

You personally disliked Artime; is that

23 correct?

24

Mr. Espinosa.

25

tr. Blackmer.

Yes.

Did

you personally knon him?

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Mr. Espinosa.'

Woe very nuch, I knor him. I trained him,

2 in away.

3

Air. blackmer.

You were training in Guatemala, I

4 understand?

5

Mr. Espinosa. And in Panama. And he came to Panama, and

6 I was

assigned to give him the demolition training, a crasn

7 course in

demolition. So I was in touch with him

for a few

8 aays, closely, and I didn't think much of him, really. And do

9 you want me to

tell. you

the story about that?

10

Mr. Blackmer. I don't think that that will

be necessary.

11

what was the feeling generally among the exiles that you

12

had contact with about Artime and his position with the CIA?

13

Mr. Espinosa. It was about the same.

14

Mr. Blackmer. what is that?

15

Mr. Espinosa. They disliked the idea that a puppet was

16

being imposed on them.

17

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever discuss this with carlos, his

18

relationship wiün Artime?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

iro, not really.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Did

you ever talk to fobreno about your

21

dislike or distrust for Artime?

22.

Mr. Espinosa. no.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Did you distrust

Artime also?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mr. Blackmer.

Do you think ne was personally motivated

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and not patriotically motivated?

2

3

air. Espinosa. les.

Nr. Blackmer. Did you trust fobreno?

4

Mr. Espinosa. When it comes

to something

I had to do

5 with Cubela, I would trust him.

6

Mr. Blackmer. You think he would not nave told

Fidel

7 about Rolando's working with the CIA?

8

9

vir. Espinosa. He was very loyal to Cubela.

Mr. Blackmer. Where were his loyalties with respect to

10

Castro?

11

Mr. Espinosa.

No, he is not by nature a very loyal

12 person or very legal person, but cubela was like his hero.

13

Mr. Slackmer. Are you faniliar

with an individual named

14 Orlando Sosch?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Mo.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Dr. Orlando Sosca?

17

Mr. Espinosa. lo. I have heard about him.

18°

Mr. Blackmer. Have you had any contact with him at all?

19

Nir. Espinosa. No.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Had you heard that he might have been

21

operating in this country during 1963 and had you heard anything

22 about any of his activities in this country

at that time?

23

Mr. Espinosa. Mo.

24.

Mr. Blackmer.

Did you know an individual named Julio

25 Lobo in

Havana?

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hir. Espinosa. les.

2..

Mr: Blackner.. What is

the extent of your knowledge of

3-bim?

4

Ar. Espinosa.. A friend of mine was

married to a niece of

5 his, and I have

seen the zuy three or four times in my life.

6

iir. Slackmer.

Has he active in any of the groups in

7 Havana?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Hot that I know of.

9

Mr. Blackmer.

Do you know if he was active in any of the

10 Cuban exile movements?

11

Mr. Espinosa.

Iheard that the guy is giving money, but

12 personally I was naver involved with anything that he

13 contributed to or anything like that.

14

ir. Blackmer. Have you ever heard of an individual named

15 Ricardo Morales Navarete?

.. -...-------

16

Mr. Espinosa. It sounds familiar, but I can't see the

17 face:

sut it sounds familiar.

18

vir. Blackmer. Do you know what you would have heard nin

19 in connection with?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No.

21

Have you sot a picture of him or anything?

22

Mr. Blackmer. No.

23

nould he have been a hired killer, an assassin?

24

Mr. Espinosa.

when you mentioned

the name, it is not so

25

much Morales, out the first name, it rings a bell, but i

can't

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see it.

2

tr. blackmer, Could he have been active with you in the

3

anti-satista

movement with you or with someone alse?

4

Nir. Espinosa. I don't know. I can't place the guy, and

550 if I can't place the suy ---.

6

Mr. Blackmer. How asout David Morales?

Mr. Espinosa. lo.

8

Mr. Blackmer. Monkey Morales?

9

Mr. Espinosa. lio.

10

Mr. Blackmer.

Have you ever heard of an

individual named

11

Antonio

Veciana?

12

-Mr. Espinosa. No.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Are you familiar with Alhpa 56?

14

Mr. Espinosa. I have heard of it.

15

Mr. Blackmer. Do you have any information about one of

16

the founders

leaders?

17

Mr. Espinosa.

1i0.

18

vir. Blackmer.

Do you know an individual or have you

19

heard of an individual named Morris Bishop?

20

Mir. Espinosa.

NO.

21

Mr. Blackmer. When you were in Cuba in 1957, 155, and

22.

'59, have you had

any contact with santiago, cuba, or did you

23

ever go

there?

24

Mr. Espinosa.

1o.

25.

Hir: Blackmer.

are you familiar with a corporation named

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Haubay Mining Company?

2

tr. Espinosa. no.

3

ir. Slacker. Once again, you did meet Frank Sturgis in

4 Miami. vere you

aware of Frank Sturgis

at all in lavana right

5 arouna the tima Castro took over?

6

Mr. Espinosa. lio.

7

Mr. Blackmer. You mentioned that you are familiar with

8 Pedro Diaz Lanz. Did you know in 1950. he was appointed head

9 of the cuban Air Force by Castro?

10

Mir. Espinosa. Yes.

11

Mr. Blackmer. And at the same time and somewhat later,

12 he appointed sturgis as a director of security for the

air

13 force?

14

tir. Espinosa. I didn't know that.

15

Mr. Blackner. You were not aware of that at all?

16

Mr. Espinosa. Mot until

just right now.

17

Mr. Blackmer. Sturgis also had a relationship with some

18 of the casinos in Havana ano was frequently seen at these

19 casinos.. Do you recall, if you think back, whether you might

20 have

seen him?

21

Mr. Espinosa..

No.

22

Mr. Blackmer.

Not whatsoever?

23

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

24

Mr. Blackmer.

When you were going on these various raids

25 from

keys, as we discussed, three or four raids after the say

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1 of Pios, cic you ever come in contact with an individual names

2 wallace Shanlay?

3

tr. Espinosa. lio.

4

Nr. Blackner. He would nave been with the governient,

5 either Immigration or Custons?

6

Nr. Espinosa. lio.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever come in contact with any

8 Americans with Customs or Immigration and laturalization?

9

Mr. Espinosa..

10

Mir .

Blackmer. When you were in the june 15th detention

11 from the attempted raid, I understand they seized a 1957

12 Thunderbird belonging to your aunt.

13

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mr. Blackmer. And you took legal action against customs.

15

tr. Espinosa. Ho, they got the car two years later.

16

Mr. blackmer. You did not so through an attorney?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Maybe they did, I don't know.

18

Mr. Blackmer. You don't

recall that?

19

Mir. Espinosa. io, I didn't.

20

iir. Blackier. When we were talking the other day about

21 the two raids, we were talking about the June 15th raid,

22 whether it was just an aborted attempt, but you are dealing

23 with a twin engine Beachorait airplane there jou were going to

24 make these nomenade bombs and you were using aynamite.

25

Mr. Esvinosa.

No, we were using --

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tr. blackmer..

THT?

2

Mr. Espinosa. Ho.: He were using navalm.

3

Mr. Blackmer. You had just run special wires out on the

4 wings of the plane and you were going over there, and didn't

5 that seem kind of

a gumshoe operation, rather a shoddy

6 operation?

7

Mr. Espinosa. I agree with you.

8

Mr. Blackmer. Did you feel that someone planning it

9 never meant it to be made?

10

Mr. Espinosa.

Because the gerson who was sponsoring it

11 was Mike, and he

gave us a means to do it and he didn't get

12 the right bombs and we didn't set the right things; he is not

13

an expert in explosives or in planes.

14

Mr. Blackmer. But you are?

15

tir. Espinosa. Yes.

16

vir. Elackmer. And

you couldn't do any better than a twin

17 engine beacheraft?

18

Mir. Espinosa.

well, he didn't ask for any better and we

19 were arraid to ask for a B-25 or B-26.

20

Mr. Slackmer.

On the first one, out on the second one

21 you did?

22

ir. Espinosa. Yes, because he warmed up to the idea.

23

Mr. Blackmer. You are talking avout the cost.

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, it was a lot of money.

25

Mr. Blackmer.

Quite a lot inora for the E-25. than

the

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Beachcraft.

2

tr. Espinosa. You have to buy it, and it is not very

3 easy to rent a 8-25, especially the ones wich the right somos

4 and the whole thing.

5

Nr. Blackmer. The plane you were going to take, the 5-25

6 at Porchartrain, to your knowledge, was fully.

operational, with

7 tomb bay doors?

8

Mr. Espinosa. I insisted that the bomb racks were in

9 there or I wasn't going to do anything with it.

10

vir. Blackmer. To your knowledge,. you do not know where

11 this plane was going to be obtained or who was going to get

12 it?

13

Mr. Espinosa. No. I heard things about Arizona and I

heard they were flying the plane from Canada, and I heard that

15 the plane was going to be flown

from South America, and I

16 heard all of this.

17

I told Mike, "I don't want to hear anything; ve don't

18 want to know, we don't want to know."

19

Mr. Blackmer. You just told Mike to get the plane?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

21

Mr. Blackmer. Do you assume he went through Sam Bentor

22

the plane?

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

24

Mr. Blackiner. That was

the first time?

25

Mr. Espinosa. And I wouldn't be surprised if he went

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1 through him the second time.

2

ur. Slackner. ine else was aware of these oparations

3

aside from the group participating, benton and Mclaney and

4 jourseir?

5

Mr. Espinosa. sell, I imagine their wives or girl

6 friends. and everybody in the operation.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Specifically, any Americans?

8

Mr. Espinosa. No.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Any members of the CIA?

10

vir. Espinosa. No, for Christ's sake, of course not.

11

Mr. Blackmer. But no other Americans other than Benton?

12

Mir. Espinosa. I wouldn't say Benton. I knew Mike, and

13 if he used

Benton, I don't know.

14

Mr. Blackmer. Did you have a meeting in june at the home

15 of Mike Mclaney and yourself and say you were discussing this

16

operation, and was there someone present?

17

vir. Espinosa. Miguel Alvarez.

18

Mr. Dlackmer. Nas Benton present?

19

Mr. Espinosa. I can't remember. I am not trying to --

20

Mir. Blackmer. Our files indicate that Senton gave the

21 story that he was just there to take pictures and he was there

22 for publicity, and

after the raid was successful you were

23 going to play up the publicity aspect of it.

Nas there any

24 truth to that story?

25

Mr. Espinosa. The

first raid or the second one?

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Mr. Blackmer. The first one.

2

ir. espinosa..

I was never aware they were going to take

3

any pictures.

4

Mr. Blackmer. What was his role?

5

Mr. Espinosa.

As far as I know, the first time he was to

6

rent the plane.

7

Mr. Blackmer. That is all?

8

Mr. Espinosa. That is all.

9

ir. Blackmer. And when you were detained by the fel and

10. Customs at the site, where were you coming from and how were

11 you to meet?

12

Mr. Espinosa. You mean over there, in that strip where

13. the Beachcraft was? I was coming from my aunt's house in that

14 Thunderbird, with the napalm, or whatever it was, and I was

15 getting there to be with the rest of the guys and to take

16 over.

17

Mr. Elackmer. You were to meet the plane?

18

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

19

Mr. Blackmer. And who was bringing the plane?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Alpizar.

21

Mir. Blackmer. Do you know a person named william

Pawley?

22 You never heard of william Pawley?

23

Mr. Espinosa. An American?

24

Mr. Blackmer.

Living in Miami, and he is a war hero

25 from world war II and. worked with the Flying Tigers

and

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General Chenault, and also nad a business in cuba, head of a

2 bus system in cube and tuen in miami, and he was very active

3 in the anti-castro activities.

4

Mr. Espinosa.. No.

5

Mr. Blackner.

You never heard of him?

6

tir. Espinosa. No.

7

Mir. Blackmer.

I have no further questions.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. You mentioned the casino industry in

9 Havana pre-1959. I believe thât you frequented

some casinos

10 and that is now you met Mike NoLaney; is that correct?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. In addition to the Nacional, did you

13 frequent any of the other casinos?

14

Mir. Espinosa. Yes. I used to go out in the evening; all

15 of the guys.

Me would

.50 to one and then to another

one,

16

especially because of the showgirls, really.

17

Mr. Hörnbeck. During the time

that you were doing to

ine

18 various casinos, did you come to know some of the casino

19 owners?

20

tir. Espinosa. I was

pointed out, like I told you the

21 other day, for example, George

Raft was there, and then I saw

22 one guy, I think it was wnite or snow.

23

Mr. Hornbeck, Larry Snow?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mr. Hornback. Did you know Dino Cellini?

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Mir. Espinosa. lio.

2

ir. Hornbeck. Eddie Cellini?

3

tir. Espinosa. No.

4

Mr. hornbeck. Charles Tourine?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Mo.

6

ir. Hornbeck. Martin Fox Zamora, at the Iropicana?

7

Mr. Espinosa.

This is one that I never went to.

I was

8 there once, but because it was so far away I never went over

9 there.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Santos Trafficante?

11

Mr. Espinosa. I have neard of him, but I never met him.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. Mas he ever pointed out to you?

13

Mr. Espinosa. No.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever hear of Santos. Trafficante

15 being involved

in Miani with any anti-castro activities?

16

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I have heard about that.

17

Mir. fornback.

would you tell us what you heard, first of

18 all, and then perhaps tell us the source of your information?

19

Mr. Espinosa. Okay, ihat I have heard is that he was

20 helping

and trying to do something to help some people like

21 Mike helped

me to overthrow castro.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. When you say helping Mike --

23

Mr. Escinosa. No.

24

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you know of a relationship between

25 Trafficante and Mike McLaney?

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Mr. Espinosa.

1io.

2

Ar. Hornback.

Did wire chaney ever mention Trafficante

3 to you?

4.

Mr. Espinosa. 1o.

5

nir. hornbeck. Did he ever mention any other American

gambling interests who were doing the same kind of activity as

7 he was doing with you?

8

Mr. Espinosa. lio.

9

Nir. Hornbeck. Other people who you may nave seen

in

10 Cuba; Jake Lansky?

11

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

12

Mr. Hornoeck. At the Riviera?

13

ir. Espinosa. I don't know his first name. And I

14

remember Lansky, and I remember the name. One time in the

15 Riviera someone saying "That is Meyer Lansky.:

16

üir. Hornbeck. Meyer Lansky?

17

Mr. Espinosa..

Yes.

18

Mr. Hornbeck.

Did you ever meet an individual in Cuba sy

19 the name of john Martino? Martino was later arrested by the

20 Castro government and spent several years in jail, and I

21 believe he was released sometime around 1951.

22

vir. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Hornbeck.

Guiseppe DeGeorge?

24

Mr.

Espinosa.

No.

25

Mr. Hornbeck..

Reuben. Miro?

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ar. Espinosa. 10.

2

ir. pornoeci. Mercar bondo?

3

4

Mr. Espinosa. We all know him.

•r. hornoeck. You personally were acquainted with

nim?

5

ir. Espinosa. I met him a number of times.

6

ur. nornbeck. Morman Rothman?

7

Mr. Espinosa. I told John that I saw him a couple of

8 times in Cuba, and I saw him a couple of times in Miami.

9

Air.

Hornbeck. vere you friendly with him personally?

10

Nr. Espinosa.

No, I was friendly with his son, with

11 Cappy Rothman.

12

Mr. tornbeck. What relationship did you have with Cappy

13 Rothman?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Just the relationship of a man who goes to

15 the

bar and has

a few drinks, and sometimes we dated girls

16 together or something.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you have conversations with his father

18 Morman?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No, never.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever see Cappy Rothman in Miami?

21

Mr. Espinosa. In Miami; I always saw him

in Miami.

22

Mr. Hornbeck.

Where did you see him?

23

Mr. Espinosa..

At the oar that he used

to nave.

24

•Wir. Hornbeck. That was the Diltmore?

25

Mir. Espinosa..

It was some hotel in Miani Beach.

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$9

ur. Hornöeck. Could that

have been the Siltnore Terrace?

2

Mir. Espinosa. Yes.

3

r. hornbeck. nas that the same hotel that nocerto.

Fernandos Miranda was associated with?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Tliat i don't know.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. when you saw Cappy Rothman in Miami, did

7 you ever discuss with

him any anti-castro activities?

ir. Espinosa. lever.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Did he ever solicit your aid in any kind

10 of Cuban adventura?

11

tir. Espinosa. Mever.

12

Mr. Hornbeck.

Did he ever discuss the Castro regime;

13 what it has cost his father and what it had cost him?

14

iir. Espinosa. Maybe

he might have made a comment about

15

that sometime or other. Sut it was not any depth or anything

16

like that.

17

Hir. Hornbeck. Did you ever hear of or did you ever meet

18 Kelly or San Manarino, from Pittsourgh?

19

Mr. Espinosa. lio.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever hear their names mentioned sy

21

Cappy or Norman

Rothman?

22

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever meet in cuba or Miami Henry

24 Savaradra and he had a nickname of "ñiki?

25

Nr. Espinosa.

10.

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ir. Hornoeck. Did you know a Rapnael Gener?

2

Mr. Espinosa. You asked me, and i told you the name

3

sounded

familiar.

4

Ar. lornbeck. He had a nickname oi Macho, l-a-c-a-o.

5

vir. Espinosa. No, I remember that much I never dia.

nir. Hornbeck. Did you ever meet any indivicual in

the

7 United States or in Europe by the name of Macho?

8

Nr. Espinosa. No.

9

vir. Hornbeck. During the time that you were in Paris,

10 did you ever

run across any ex-members of the OlS?

11

Mir. Espinosa. No. I didn't even know the JAS existed.

12 You are talking about the French organization?

13

Mr. Hornbeck.

Yes.

14

vir. Espinosa. No, I never did.

15

Mir. Hornbeck. Again, while you vere in Europe, did you

16 meat any Soldier of Fortune people who were fighting or goin

17 to fight in the congo?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

Mo. The only ceople l have anown go to

19 the congo with the cubans that went with the cla.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. were those

people that you knew in Cuba?

21

ir. Espinosa. That I knew in Cuba or that I knew from

2 the invasion or from revolutionary activities in

Miami. They

23

are the onty people that have been in the congo that I ever

24 met.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Nas Teddy Whitehouse one of those

people

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1C1

1 that you knew?

2

ir. Espinosa. I know Teddy shitenouse, but i would lie

3 you to tell me who he is.

4

Mr. tornbeck. He is a pilot.

5

ir. Espinosa. He is a pilot?

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Yes.

7

Hir. Espinosa. I know the name and i know the guy for

8 sure.

9

ur. Hornoeck. He was very friendly with orman Rothman?

10

Mr. Espinosa.

I can't even picture the guy, but I know I

11 met the guy.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you, in cuba, meet a Joseph Merola?

13

Mr. Espinosa. No.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know a jorge Alonso Pujol?

15

ir. Espinosa. The old man or the sor?

16

Mr. Hornueck. Did you know the family?

17

Mr. Espinosa. I know the old man was vice president of

18 Cuba during the Prio time.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know his son, jorge?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

I have heard of hin but I have never

21 met him.

22

Mr. Hornbeck.

Juan Restoy, Cesar Restoy?

23

Mir. Espinosa.

Again I think the name tells me something.

24

Mr. hornbeck. jose Aleman?

25

ir: Espinosa:

I met him once.

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ir. Hornbeck. Can you tall us whether that was in Cuba

2 or the United

States?

3

ir. ispinosa, lio, it vas in the United states. I went

4 with Cubela, and I know Major Paez. I went to the

5. Fountainbleau

and we stayed in one hotel owned üy jose Aleman,

6 and he nad a nickname, and I only met him once.

7

. Mr.

nornbeck. Can you tell us approximately what year

8 that was?

9

Mr. Espinosa. It was 1959, March of 1959.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Were you traveling during the 1959 year

11 between Cuba and

the United States?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. I went to Miami then and I went to

13 Miami another time, and two times or three times before I

14 finally took off.

15

Mr. Hornbeck.

Are these all pleasure trips or as there

16 some business?

17

Mir. Espinosa. Just pleasure trips.

18

Mr. Hornback. Did you know orlando bosen?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No.

20

Mr. Hornoeck. Have you ever heard of Orlando Bosch?

21

Mr. Espinosa. Is he related to. Pippin Bosen?

22

ir. Hornbeck. Pippin Bosch was president of Bicardi

23 Rums.

•24

fir. Espinosa.

There. was a Bosch when the whole thing

25 started with the invasion and the training ci the cubans,

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1 although

was under the auspices of the CIa, he was supposed

2 to be fightind for a droup called "The Front," and The Front

3 were five different people, representing

five different

4 organizations, who were united in order to det enough people

5 to do it, and bosch was one of them.

6

vir. Hornbeck. This is the Pippin Bosch?

7

Mir. Espinosa. He is not the one that you are talking

8

about.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Luis Pasado?

10

Mir. Espinosa. lio.

11

Mir. Hornbeck.. Luis Balbuena?

12

Mr. Espinosa. No.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Dominick Bartone?

14

Nr. Espinosa. No.

15

Mr. Hornbeck.

The record will reflect that the witness

16 is shaking his head negacively

for all of this.

17

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

18

ir. Hornbeck.

Raphael Garcia Songo?

19

Mir. Espinosa: Yes.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. How

did you know him and when did you

21 first meet him and what was your relationshis?

22

Mr. Espinosa. There are two brothers; that is Raphael

23. and there is jort.

24

I used to have a girl friend when 1 was very young in

25 Cuba and her cousin was the girl friend of Jorta. Jorta had a

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1 very sad derman shepherd he manted to det rid of, and ne gave

2 it to nie, and I säid, Cray, i will take it." and

Ihad this

dog for many years, and that was the extent of my frieneshis

4 with hin. Ihrough him I net his brother, Raphael, who used to

5 be a lawyer in Cuba.

bon Santos Trafficante.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Is

this just common knowledge, or did you

7 know this personally?

8

Mr. Espinosa. It was common knowledge. I think he is

9 coing some time in jail right now.

Mr. Hornbeck. Me is doing tine in Spain now?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, for passing false dollars.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. Counterfeit money?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mir. Hornbeck.

when did you hear that information?

15

Mr. Espinos.a.

Many years ado; fiva or six jears ago, or

16 majbe more.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us hor you beard the

infornation and any details you may have heard?

19

ir. Espinosa. I can't recall who told me the story.

And

20 this was at the

beginning when I vent to Spain.

21

Mr. Hornbeck.

which would have been approximately when?

22

Mr. Espinosa. That vould be 1972.

23

ur. hornbeck. And you heard the story then?

24.

tr. Espinosa.

That Raphael had been

there and that ne

25 had ven or fifteen thousand dollars in one hundred dollar

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1 notes and he was

passing them for two or three days and then

2 they got him

then he got a bunch of years in jail.

3

ir. Hornbeck. Did you dear whether or not trafficante

4 had ever tried to help him in Spain?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No, but I heard that he had something to

6 do with Trafficante.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. That the counterfeiting had something to

8 do with Irafficante?

9

Mr. Espinosa. This is what I heard, but you know how

10 people talk to me. It is not very difficult to figure out if

11 Raphael was Iraificante's lawyer in Cuba; now he gets caught

12 in Spain with counterfeit money. There is a likely

13 possibility of the money.came.from the guy and this is what

people are speculating about, or told me at the time.

15

Mr. Hornbeck. When Trafficante was in Cuba,

he was

16 arrested

sometime

in mic-1959, and did you ever hear that?

17

Mr. Espinosa. No.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever hear that Mike "cLaney was

19 arrestad in Cuba?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

21

Mr. Hornbeck.. Can you tell us what you heard and from

22 what source?

23

Mr. Espinosa. All I know

is that he was

living in the

24 country and he was going back to Miani and he was living and

25 they took nim and they put hin in jail for two or three

days.

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Mr. Hornbeck. Did Mike aver contact you?

2

tir. Espinosa. "o.

3

ir. Hornbeck. Did he ever discuss how he got arrested

4 with you?

5

Mr. espinosa. No.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. He never told you?

7

Mr. Espinosa. I am sure that I have heard

the story, but

8 things don't really register after some years.

9

Mr. Hornback. Did you know Marcos Perez jininez?

10

Mr.

Espinosa. I never met the guy, although I know.

he

11 used to live very close to Mike's house in Pine Tree Drive in

12 Miani Beach; two or three houses away from Mike.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever have a chance to meet him?

14

Mr. Espinosa. No.

15

Nr. Hornbeck. Did you ever hear whether or not he was

16 involved in any kind of Cuban activities?

17

Mr. Espinosa. I never have.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Jorge Soto Martinez?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Evaristo Garcia Vidal?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. Miguel Juarez?

23

¡ir. Espinosa. Yes, I know him.

24

Mr.. Hornbeck. How do you know hin; under what

.25

circumstances?

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Mr. Espinosa. He used to be either the manager or the

2 onner of the 21 club in ravana, and ne

was alvays mixine with

3 bis people somerow. :

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Did he have any relationship with any of

5 the American jamoling interests, if you know?

6

Hr. Espinosa. I am sure ne aid.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. Anyone you ever saw him with?

8

Mr. Espinosa.

No, but he was always hanging around

with

9 these

people.

10

Mr. Hornbeck.

Eugenio Leal Pozo?

11

Mir. Espinosa.

No.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. joe Rogers or joe Stassi?

13

•Mr. Espinosa. No.

14

tir. Hornbeck.

Sam Mannarino?

15

vir. Espinosa. lo.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. Eenito Fernandez?

17

vir. Espinosa.

Nio.

18

Mr. Hornbeck.

Did you ever go to the Commodore at

19

Doville?

20

Mir.

Espinosa. Maybe once or twice in my life.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. At some point you or someone had mentionec

22 that Fidel had a mistress at the Nacional.

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yas.

24

Mr. Hornbeck. what can you tell us about her, who she

25 was, and when

he used to visit her and when you

saw inan

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1 there.

2

ir. Espinosa. I can't teil you mio she was, because i

3 san her a couple oi times. She was a colored sirl, very light

4 in color, and

she was

there, and on two pacesions, it might

5 have been April or May of 1959, I saw Fidel Castro in the car

6 outsice waiting for her, he and a chauffeur: I con't know who

7 she was and I can't remember her name or anything.

8

ir. Hornbeck. Did you ever meet or hear of a woman by

9 the name of Marita Lorenz?

10

Mr. Espinosa. io.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know or ever neet Larry Dejoseph?

12

Mr. Espinosa. No.

13

vir. Hornbeck. That name is not familiar to you?

14

Mr. Espinosa. lio.

15

Mr. Hornbeck. When you had discussed earlier in your

16

testimony today seeing a file, vere vou referring to a CIA

17 file or an FBI file, do you linow?

18

lir. Espinosa.

I don't know if it was CIA or FBI. I

19 assume mayõe it was a Customs file. But I looked through it

20 for about haif an nour, and it was very well documented and

21 there were many things that I don't ramenber that

are there.

22

Mr. blackier. dere there code names in it; crypto names?

23

vir. Espinosa. No. It was all straight names, füll

names, and the whole thing, and the nicknames and friends and

25 so on.

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1

Mr. hornbeck. I don't want to duell on Fidel Castro's

2 personal life, but suring the

period that you were in lavana

3 and then for a few years

after that when you nay have had

4 contacts there, did he have a number of mistreses or was he

5 basically with one woman?

6

vir. Espinosa. No, he always aho a number of them around.

7

Mr.

hornbeck.

were they fairly well known?

8

Mir. Espinosa.

I guess some of them were. There was this

9. Lily Gowdy, and I don't know if he was screwing her or not,

10 but he was cetainly taking her out.

I think this is what I

11 knew, but I was a kid at the time, and I am sure the people

12 older than me knew more:

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know a person who worked at the

14 Iropicana casino by the name of Lewis Mowillie?

15

Mr. Espinosa.

, io.

16

Mir. hornbeck.

Did you know an Aldo Vena Serfin?

17

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

18

Mr. Blackmer.

Did vou know Sergio Acacia

19 Smith?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

21

Mr. Blackmer.

•Did you have any relationship vith any of

22

the anti-Castro Cuban forces

in New Orleans?

23

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

24

Mir. Blackmer.

Or any of the particular groups that were

25

.in

New Orleans?

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ar. Espinosa. I didn't know there was an anti-casiro

2 force in lew orleans.

3

vr. Blackmer. You cid train in lew Orleans at one time?

4

ir. Espinosa, Yes, I trained in lew Orleans. I didn't

5 really train over there. We were taken from Panama and in

6 order to send us to cuba first we were taken to lew orleans,

7 to an

old Marine base or what had been closed

for 20 or 30

8 years, and from there we were taken to biloxi, Mississippi, to

9 a security nouse.

10

Nr. Blackmer. This is 1960 or 1961?

11

Mr. Espinosa. This is 1961. This is just two or three

12 months

before

the invasion.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Were you garrisoned on the base,....

14 boarded on the base in Eiloxi?

15

Nr. Espinosa. Not in Biloxi; in lew Orleans.

16

Mr. Blackier. How about when you went to siloxi?

1.7

Mr. Espinosa. They split the

guys. There

were

about so

18 guys, and they split them different ways, and I was there with

19 about eight or nine guys in a security house nith a couple of

20

agents.

21

Mr. Blackmer. On the base?

22

Mr. Espinosa. no, no.

23

Mr. Blackmer. In the town?

24

Nr. Espinosa. It was a security house. That is a house:

25 that is used for clandestine oeprations,

and so a security

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1

house was a

safe house' in Diloxi, and we lived there,

seven

2 or eight guys and one or tuo cla guys

for asout uno weeks.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Had you had any contäct with bernard

4

Barker in havana?

5

ür. Espinosa. ilo.

6

tir. hornüeck.

Eugenio Martinez?

7

tir .

Espinosa. no.

8

Mr. Hornüeck...

Virgillo sonzales?

9

tir. Espinosa. 1o.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Cueto?

11

Mr. Espinosa. No.

12

Mr. Blackmer. Ne appreciate

your coming. Could you

13 pssibly give us a telephone number where we can contact you,

14 should the need arise, in London?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Surely. I can give you my home number.

16

Mir. Blackmer.

If; in the future, toward the end of

ine

17 summer, we should like to have you at a hearing, would you

18 have any predisposition against appearing before this

19 committee at a hearing and going over the things that we have

20

just discussed?

21

Mr. Espinosa. Of course not. Count on me.

22

Mr. Blackmer. If you could leave us with the number,

23

then we will be in contact with you.

24

Thank you very much for your cooperation.

25

(hereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the deposition was concluded. i

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CERTIFICATE OR SHORTRAND HEPORTER

2

1, iärola B. Alderson, shorthand reporter, do hereby

3 certily tai the testimony of ine witness wnich appears in the

4 foregoing deposition was taken oy me in shorthand ano

5 therearter reduced to typewriting under my diraction; that

6 said deposition is a true record of the testimony given oy

I said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor

8 employed by any of the parties to the action in which this

9 deposition was taken, and further, that I am not a relativa or

10 employee of any attorney or counsel employed oy the parties

thereto, or financially or otherwise interested in the outcoine

12 of the action.

13

14

15

16

17

Shorthand

neporter

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

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CERIIFICATE OF WOTARY PUBLIC

2

I, Elizabetn

Berning, the cificer whom the foregoing

3 deposition was taken, do hereby certily

that the withess

whose

4 testimony appears in the oregoing deposition was duly sworn

5 Dy me; that the

testimony of said witness was taken by

6 Harold b. siderson, shorchand reportar, and thereafter reduced

7 to typewriting under his airaction; that I am neither counsel

8 for, related

to, nor employed oy any of the parties to the

9

action in which this deposition was

taken, and further, that i

10

all

not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsei

employed oy

the

parties thereto, nor financial or otherwise

interested in the outcome of the action.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

notary Puolic in and for

the District of Columbia

My Commission Expires:

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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