NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPTS.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 01/01/0000
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Reel #10

O August às

TILISLATION

well, d you have anythins to say.

B. Just ose littlo dotail.

About the javy - about the Navy Preparatory Schools, wiich wo

all the students -- called "podgot" for short.

I soose shout this carlier - you knew this, without no se at the

beginntas of the 1950s --I do not know which years: 1951 or 1055 --

an caplore of the Soulet TORGIREDSTVO. In France, Fellie KrUTIKOV,

after is recruitment by French Intellifence, it scons, war

a run by

you ((iS istellitence)) or the british -- I do not know cractly

((whica)).

In an orientation report, it sas said that either the Americang or

British vorted with him.

A.

what relation does this have to the Navy. Preparatory School:

B.

One misuse;& now will explain for you to the end.

keeping is sind that he ms an agent of yours, or the English, they

astied his for bls biograpis -- how and what.

Well, de studied at the Mary Preparatory Scliool in Balu -- I knew

this Marian even before the mar.

He stucies in Baku.

They asir als for his biography; he probably told then.

A. Ahat did do probably tell thea.

3. That I salled a that is, not me, hut he blesel? had studied in

the tart inparatory School.

A .

Aut this ins nothing to do with you.

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6.. Tula hop a colatton to your denial dioray tuformation)) of the.

Navy Preparatory Schouln.

I derlod and deny that there were or are any Navy Preparntory Schoolg

with a three-yond course of study.

If you studled, you studled nt cone other school

B.

At tho Preparatory School.

For short, no collod It tho podgos"

A. You can call thom wint you want - students con call then anything.

How did you talk about those preparatory schouls at tho hoginning:

Do you remonber.

B. I do not know how I talkod.

A. I mean mat did you say at tho beginning.

B. Tha Navy Preparatory Schoole wilch preparo etudents for entranco to

the Frunze or Dorchinskly Schools.

A. But thoro were not such schoold with a threo-year course of study.

B. Well, I was in one in baku and in Leningrad at the borlaning, the

tenth grade.

A. ...Thore was not any In either Leningrad or Baku - preparatory

schools with a three-year course of study, In which training ins

Liven in the sth, oth, and l0th grades.

1. Miat is absolutely accurate.

It sust have been a different school; if you were in a different

piace, say so.

F.

No, preciscly in the preparatory school:

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Mat 15 mill told you this detail about kietikove sho alno studied

In Balu, in tho Anvy Preparatory School.

A. It has nothiny to in with you that inuthor streted thorn

Ii. It has relation to the fact tunt he studled at the Preparatory

School; It sirniftes that the school extated.

Л.:

Do not return to knuTlkov:

No know wat kind of schools existed at that time, and that they

were callod.

Thore were no schools of the kind of which you pro talking.

And, thorcloro, for soveral days I have bon trying to find cit what

kind of a school you wure in.

B. In Baku, at tho Preparatory School, and in Leningrad.

A. Woll, Inasmuch as you have raisod this question, I can spend

soveral minutes on it.

That was the Pull name of this Baku school.

B. Tho Baku Navy Proparatory Schöol.

A. Baku Navy Preparatory School.

And then you woro in Leningraa:

What was

this school called.

B. Tho Loningrad Navy Preparatory School.

A.. The Lenlagrad Navy Preparatory School.

well, what was the perlod of trairins at the one school and at the

other.

B.

one could, if he had had nine yoars... they could accept you

straight nry for the third course.

If you had had seven years, they could accept you for the first

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-1.

course.

If you had had cight yours, they could accept you for the second

course.

Well, you are trying..

B.

I am not trylng...

I told you that thore vero 3 years.

A.

- Nize.

nine plus

B. roll, there wore the 8th, oth, and loth grades.

A. Thy can you not toll it the way it was.

B. I am tollio! you only as it was.

A. Well, we will drop tho question;

This question has already been resolved, and thore is no teason

to roturn to it

Becalse that school in which you were - a throc-year Navy Preparatory

School there never pere any such schools ind, therefore, you

could nover have been to one.

if you were la a leningrad or Baxu school, It must have been some

other kind.

It must have had a different period of training... but not as you say.

в. Но, по, до, по, по, по.

It depends upon how many classes you have comploted. ((Pause))

Although perhaps this Frunze Higher Red Banner School iment Frunze

or the Dzerzhinskly Navy Engineering School... they took students

after they finished the lith grade.

Aad, therefore, this school had 10 grades.

The Preparatory School, both in Baku and in Leningrad.

A. Never did this Proparatory School- neither the one nor the other -

in Baku or anymiere give a three-year courso.

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5-

B. Threc years i- and I an telling you that you could come there

having completed a grades, and you can study therc for ore year in

the preparatory school.

1. Tell, If you cane there after completing a grades, so so.

But you did not cont there ((with 9 grades completed)).

B. I cane to Leningrad altor completing 9 trades.

And I was l the 7th grade shen I came to Baku.

Fell, if you came to lenlograd in the 9th grade, what school did

you enter.:

B.

The Leningrad Preparatory School, wich had separated from the Baku

School in 1944.

A. Agato, this 18 not so. ((Pause))

If we go back to your sth grade, you could not explain to me what an

eksternat 18.

And, therefore, I cannot buy it that you had completed the 9ta

grade at the nining institute.

If you finished It in some other way

B. No.

A., If you acquired or purchased a certificate

of completion of the 9th

grade, then say so.

B. Well, I said so.

((iG → A and B spear, at the sane time) )

A. There is no secrat to this - what kind of elsternats there sere

and how they operated - even if I did not know about them, there

1s plenty mitten about them.

B. There sero thousands of them, thousauds of them.

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A. You know there is a difference retecen the night schools and the

normal day schools, between night schools, the correspondence

schools, and the elsternats. (Pause))

fell, the first question us not in this area.

B. Alright:

A. I had in nind — if you have thought about it -- about those

subjects wich_I reminded you about after cur six days of meetings.

What can you say about that question.

B. I told sou the truth; I told you the truth about ay educatton, about

myself, about my work in the KGB from 1953.

A. But you give no substantiations ((of your statements)) that you were

worklag in 1953 and even later; you can see this yourself.

B. No, I do not see It.

A.

(1-2G) every employee should know if he was there.

You do not even know into nich directorate you rent into, to tell

the truth

Right.

Well:

в.

Right; I found out about this only during my conversation.

A. If you learaed during the discussions, then why do you not know

which one it was.

B. The Second ((chief)) Directorate.

A.

Because at that time it was not the Second, and you do sui know

when it was re-named:

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= :

7

B. Thc Second Directorate.

A.

thy insist on such nonsense when everyone knows this:

B. There, I am insisting that I beran working in March;

on the 12th or

15th, there ras this discussion, and I began to work.

The Second ((Chief)) Directoraté, First Section, First Department,

Second Directorate.

A. If you started working in March, it was not in the Second Directorate:

B. It was the Second Directorate; absolutely right.

You do not know wen it was re-naned, until when it existed.

B. And they re-named It, - it was the first Directorate only under

KostLoY, only sobULoY; under Kobulov after BERTYA?

A. Tais is not true.

You even could not explain how and when the GRU AGR eristed.

B. It existed at one time!

A. Well, when:

B. I was not working at that tine.

A. You yourself said that you used old references when you issued

special check orders, that old printed forms were used and so forth.

B. But there were not any forns at the GRU.

A. If there were not any, then it means you were not there. ((Pause))

Rell, insofar as you insist on your, we will return to the question

nich we began to speak about.

Explain to me fron the very jeginning how and in maich fear, and by

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that procedure you divorced your first nite.

the mole process - rant steps you took, fros the bestaninp

to the und

How did this all legin

Keep in mind that you even could not toli me uncro you jeglotered.

-B.

well, the riGS, kayon

well, the first time you mere setting marrtod, you should know at

wat ZAGS, in mich rayon, nod when.

It you got married only two tines in all, it is not so hard to

renember

Hell please; how were you divorced

B. ine marriage was termtnated, factually terminated, not lesally but

factually, In 2918,

I began to raise the matter of divorce myself, in 1950.

A. Hov did it begin

B. I do not remember

The publie announcement was sade in Sovetskaya Gavan:

A. What is the actual procedure.

Б.: Actually.

a statenent on the divorce is subnitted.

A. There is this statenent sulmitted:

B. In the People's Court.

A. At which People's Court did jou submit the statement.

B. At the People's Court acrording to ny place of residence;

it was

((wien)) I lived on leshchanaya, and the People's Court mas on

Sretenka: ((Street)).

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A. "hen say this - in 1950:

B. I'es.

A.. You submitted a statonent for divorce to the leoplo's Court

Sretenka in 1950.

well, what did you offer, so that your statenent would be accepted

iry the Court.

B..

I submitted a statement:

A. A statocent - that Is not sufficlent.

B. I do not renenber, I do not enember, I do not reneuber.

A. You do not renerber, or you do not want to talk about it

B. I do not regember.

What do you nean - I do not vant to

A. Well, what happened jater?

B. Mile in the Far East, I submitted a document for publication, and

I already had a statement from the People's Court for the newspaper.

And I pald the money and sent it for publication.

A. And where did you subeit it:

B. I traveled from

my place of service, Bukhta Postovaya, to Sovotskaya

Gavan', to that city.

And then, I subnitted It to the editorlal office of the local

псизрарег.

A. That was the nane of the nerspaper.

B. I do not renember.

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- 10 .

sell, what are there -- l0 nerspapors.

B. Just ono.

A.. Mint is it called

B.

*I do not romember, the local organ.

-A..

well, mat local organ:

B. Tho press of tho city of Sovotskaya Gavan'

A.

(1G).

B. I do not remember.

In what month was this,

B."I riso do not rememkes

A. Has It ln 1950, or la 1951g

B. No, in 1951, It seens.

124

A. Well, where 1s Sovetskayn Gavan':

B. In the Far East.

A. Vell, there:

Trere are oblasts, krays.

R. Primorskly Kray.

I. Since when Is Sovetskaya Gavan' In Prinorsily Kray:

B. Since the establishment of Soviet power.

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--11 -

A. In shat year was Sovetsia Gavin' formod.

B.

i do not know; i was not concerned with this question.

1. How do you explain your errors.

B. Mout kind of orrors.

A.

for your intornation, Sovetskaya Gavan' never was in Primorskly Kray.

In which place was itr

B. It 1e ((1B)) Primorskly Kray.

A. Woll, you were In Sovetskaya Gavan'; you lived thoro; you submitted

a statement to tho Poople's Court, etc., at loast on the basis of:

this data, you recolved lottore; Sovotekaya Gavan' wig not Included

in Prinorskly Kray; never.

B.

I do not cnow. ((Laughs))

It was in Prinorskly Kray

A. Hell, were you there:

B. What are you saying:

1. Holl, must you know, or not.

B. Primorskiy Kray.

A. Hell, why are you continuing to play around liko a child:

"That it was included in Primorskly Kray" - do you really not know

geography:

How do you explain this.

You have confused Primerskiy Kray with Kaliningradsiaya Oblast, and

now you are confusing this Prinorst ly Kray.

How do you explain this:

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13.

I do not know (1-2G) .

A.

But, anywiy..

Well, soro does Siotsinga Gavin' beiong

Tute la slicio a simple question - lt la a lairo city.

It can belong to only one place; it cannot be in 10 krays.

: Sovetskinyn Gavan' never belongod to Prinorskly Krny, for your

Information.

B., Then I do not know, I do not know.

A:. Tion, who knowe.

B. I do not know

A:

mon, who knows:

Think about it, perhaps you micht recall.

( (Pruso))

Were you roilly in Sovotskaya Gavan'

В. Хов.

A. To what nroa does it belong

B. Primorskly Kray.

A. Rell, this is from the Sovetshaya Entsiklopedlya, publisted in 1953,

Volume 39, page 432, and from the Administrativno-Territorial noye

Delentye for 1949, 1950, 1053 and 1963; Sovotskaya Gavan' is a city

of kray subordination, but it never belonged to Primorskly Kray.

It was established ((as a city)) In 1011.

The city consists of several sparate settlements; I will say where

It is located.

B. (3-1G)

1.. They Include the information mhout the newspapers published there, ete..

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-13.-

1s you win In Sovetslaya Gavan, there did it belong.

D. (IG) Primoral: ly Kray.

1. For your information, It never vas thore.

amere was no Sovotslaya Grvan In Primorsily Kray.

I could, of courso, acres • 1l 1 askod whore is the villago of

Shory-lury, thoro is such a village in the Soviet Union -- you micht

have difficulty to answerins; I am not askinr you about that.

mis is the city of Sovotskaya Cavan, which in Itsolf le a harbor,

a seaport, Navy port; If you wish.

It ts know throughout the entire Soviot Union.

Thousands of men serve there in the Army, the Navy, tho Marine;

sailors, ground troops, that have you

And you do not know to that kray it belongs.

How do you oxplain this

B.: I do not know.

I do not know, I do not know how to explain It.

It can be explained that you are making an idlot of ne

A. You yourself, you yourself are doing it.

I an not doing it.

B. I can dray ((a plan for you)).

There is nothing, nothing, nothing to draw.

There is nothing to draw.

Earlier, you told me that you knew exactly that you served in

sovetst, In Prinorskly Kray, but there never was a Primorskly Kray.

there ((1 refers to earlier discussion of the Kaliningrad arca)).

B. Sovetsk Primorskly this was.

Primorskly.

((XG - 1 and B speak at the same tine))

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л.

=14. -

When we established that there was no Sovcts!:, you beran to say:

"the olty of Sovcts!: Mrinorsk1y", "the City of Sovets):-Primorskly"

riell, the Clty of Sovctsi-Primorsily also must belong to sone kray

or oblast.

B. Nell, Kaliningrad; I told you that I came to Kaliningrad.

My pose the question that way?

A. Well, one nore question - do you know how many krays there are La

the Soviet Union

B: No, I do not remember.

A. Do you know

the difference botween a kray and an oblast

B. An oblast 18 an oblast; a kray. is a kray:

It is much larger, It is larger than an oblast.

A. Hell, the Sovlet Constitution - and every high school student,

beginning with the fifth grade knows the difference, way one unit

is called a kray and another an oblast.

Take Krasnodarskly Kray → Way 1s Lt named Krasnodarskly Kray, and

why is Rostovskaya Oblast called Rostovskaya Oblast, instead of

Rostovsk ly Kray:

Why is Krasnoyarskly Kray called Krasnoyarskly Kray, and the area

next to it is called Novosibershaya Oblast, and the next one -

Irkutskaya Oblast: : ((Pause))

I think that you, as a forner student of the Institute of. International

Relations must know this difference.

((XMG - Several feet of tape unreadable))

Anyway thy is Krasnoyarskly Kray called Krasnoyarskly Kray and next

to it 1s. called Irkutskaya Oblast: ((Pause))

Anyway, you do not know where Sovctskaya Gavan' is.

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Б.

: (1G) •

A. To waat oblast or kray üid it beloag:

It was founded in 1941:

I read it to you

And from that time; it has belonged to only one place

It never was rc-named.

B. The letters were simply addressed without the indication of the

kray or oblast:

It was simply Sovetskaya Gavan, military unit so-and-so.

Why do I say Primorskly Kray

Look, it is at the end of the Soviet Unton.

S vetskaya Gavan' was.:

A. Nell, yes, I know -- the Tatarskiy Strait and Sakhalin is not far

aways Iknow

B. Sakhalin faces 1t.

A.

Well, what was the field post office at which you recelved letters

B. 90176; It was not a field post office but a military unit.

A. This means that it was addressed "ailitary unit"

B. "Military Unit 90176, City of Sovetskaya Gavan' , V/Ch (Voinskaya

Chast') 90176.

A. Yell, what do you think - if this Sovetskaya Gavan' still exists,

you must place it in some iray or oblast.

B. It no longer is in existence.

%. liell, iow Sovetsk....

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D. Sovotsara Garan'

• Sovetstinya Gavau'

A. There are sany citles of sovetsk...

6. but this is Sovetskaya Gavan' :

It 13. a big city. a".

Mere is osly one Sovetstaya Gavan'; it is a big city.

It is not entirely evident that there is only one.

Tere are sall cities, Sovetstly, that vere re-named.

vell, Sovetstaya Gavan', there is only one city with that name,

Sovetssaya Gavan'

On the other hand there must have been instructions to indicato

elther oblast or kray.

Here no such ladication was mitter.

A..

For that reason, you would not forget in what oblast or kray you

served. ((Pause))

Hand on heart, how long are we going to continue this game?

hat do you think to gain by this.

B. I do not wish to gaid anything; and I am not contlauing any kind of

a game, and I an not beginning any kind of a game.

A. Nell, listen; a fifth grave student knows - in the fifth grade,

they begin to study the physical geography of the USSR.

B. And what do you know.

Do you know everything you learned in school:

That do you know.

That you know everything that you learned in the Institute:

Do you rascaber everything:

No.

You only know what you bump up against.

Then you hare to, you will thin: it over, then, ana: - you remeaber,

SIGNET

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= 17 -

•then you reneuher.

thea you do not bump up agninst it in coality, you are not concerned

with it; it docs not come to your acad.

I now for cortain vere Sovetsinya Gavan' is, but I. only took 1t

just to confirm it for you.

And I llewise know, without a testboos, then honigsberg was

founded and re-naned. ((Pauso))

In that nerspaper was tho divorce announced.

B.

((Pause)) In the only newspapor of the city of Sovetskaya Gavan';

I do not remember what it vas called.

A. Ras it really the only nowspaper:

B. There was only one editorial offico.

It was an organ of the city authorities.

A. Hell, If we go further - you, as an employee of the Second Cales

Directorate who has finished the Institute of International Relations,

must know wio published the newspapers, wich organs publish them;

to say only "authorities", that te pretty broad.

B. In a city of oblast subordination, the nerspapers are organs of the

press of the Oblast Party Comnittee..

A.

And, further:

B. City of Sovetskaya Garan, organ of tue press, I knew....

A. That is this -- a Party Rayon Committee or a City ((Party Conmittee)):

B. A Citi ((Party Committee)), of course; it is a city.

A. And besides the Party:

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- 15 -

D. And of the City Exccutivo Committce, ((Council of)) workers' Deputios.

A .

You can he more accurato, without saying, "fell, ah, and"; juu snould

know such simple things.

What was the newspapor calied. ((Pause))

well, you went to the noispapers editorial office; what lind of

docunents you ((submit)):

B. Holl, I had some kind of document from the court.

A. What kind of a document.

B. Well, a docunent of tho fact that I was hringing a suit for divorce.

And tue court savo me this plece of puper for presentation to tho

editor for publication in the newspaper.

A.

What is this pleco of paper called; and wat is thero witten in it?

B.: I do not renember.

A. You got divorced one time in your lifo.

B.

I do not remember.

A .

... On the basis of what you said.

And you do not know what plece of paper the court gave you.

What other docuents must you cuimit in order to announce the divorce

in the newspaper.

And what kind did you have to give:

B. I paid out the money.

A.

This is done at the end.

3. A receipt that I had pald the editorial's offico.

SEGRET

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- 11-

A.: To mion do you pay 1t..

Be At tie henrest saylngs bunk.

A. lell, the recelpt -- this de the last stare.

b. That 1s all; thore are no othor documents.

Locause in that paper fron the court, it Is said that citicon (B's

none)) is bringing suit for divorce against so-ind-so wio lives, at

such and-such a pluco, ote.

And I showed my identifiention, which showed that I was an intorprotor-

trauslator In such-and-such a military unit.

A.

well, you showed your luontilication; wint else

Tell, the Identification shows that you, you are.

13. Sovotskaya Gavan', that l an In Soretskaya Gavan'

A. That it is you, it is you, and not IVANOy or PETSOv

B. Right; and that ts all.

That is not all; they will not accept it with those documents

"(Pause)) How much ild you have to pay for the announcement:

B. Three hundred rublos.

A. On what basis, Jid you have to pay

300 rubles.

B. I do not know on what basis -- to my thinking everyone has to pay

such a sun.

A. If you say you know, do not say everyone almys par such a sun.

Thy is it 300 rubles, and not 500, 600, or 200

B.

I do not know; I cannot say.

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•A.

Bis. not without paying.

B. I cannut say.

A

Tle dee meet on malal tor gene reason

B. Probably, probably.

A. On what basts.

B. I do not know.

1. ((Long pausc)) Didyour illo know that you were bringing suit for

divorco.

B. ((Pauso)) Of courso, I think that she know.

A. "Of courso, I thinks that sho kney" - you must surely know.

B.

I do not romonbor all of thoso details which you no asking no; i

do not romember.

A. Do you not renember when you were divorcedi

B. I do not rencabor, I also do not know..

A. What - you do not know how people are divorced: ((Long pause)).

Incine to yourself that your wife does not want to live you a

divorce.

That heppens then:

B. fell, my case is registered, anyway.

The rayon court never rccornizes... never decides the question

mhether to frast a divorco or not; it never decides.

It does not matter what the testlony, reasons.

But it is the City Court that makes this decision.

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And the city court can ant a ilrorce, deaptte the foet that sho

mlcht....

Л.

No know this: and we will return to it.

B. foll, thy are you askint ne.

A. In caso slic does not vant to alve jou a ulvorco.

B. Nevertholess, a roview hns to le hold; and the revlow of the matter

in thu court, the divorco caso can be hold only aitor the announcemont

of a divorce in tho pross.

A. How did you actually come to an nercemont with your wife.

Did you correspond with lor.

B.

No, I did not correspond with her; I had absolutoly nothing to

corrobpond with her about.

A.

Woll, you cannot wike in announcemont in the pross without communi-

cating with your wifo and without having all of the documents In

hand; and, If she has rofused and does not want to cive you a divorce -

or ovon if sho vere willing to a divorce, no ono will accopt your

((announcement)) for publication.

If you really got a divorco, you must know.

And if you really made the anuouncement.

B. ((Pauso)) I an tolling you the way I renomber it.

I do not renember what was there.

A. That 1s just a pretext, to say "I am telling you the way I remenber

It. "

I am asting about the way It happened.

B. I am telling you the way I reneator it, as it vas.

---

## Page 23

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A.

ist iraine that a mon doce, not remember In witch menspapor la:

nais toe announcemout, in wiich orny and what documents he presentod;

I1o no? tain: tint he ectually rade the announcement aid not o

divorce.

it : vere to say it, could you bollove no:

And, ariser, there lnd not boon i or y alvorces, but it. vas tho

firet. (raune))

Do gei sant to tell furthor, hor you actually Lot tho divorco.

B. The aurovacenont was ando in the local nevspapor.

(3-16)

I sent ons copy ((of the nerapapor with the announcement)) to Moscow,

to thesurt.

I do not renembor wiether I sent it humo or straicht to the court.

A, Very well, you sent It to the court or hone; it finnlly rot to tho

court.

B. It reaced the court.

A. What cort.

B. A rayos court..

A. Which rayon

• 3:8

D. There, co Sretenka..

1. Until ses did you maintnin your apartnent on leshclanskaya

B. Leavlag or the Far Eist In 1050.... Ycs... herc one must say...

tea ve derainated tho marriare, we divided up ti apartment scuehow.

Hell, I sad two rooms -- vell, I an not counting the third roma,

because it ing iithout a windor and dark.

I have ser the larre roos, tho Ledroom uiti that dal! roo o 1t

uns a said - and i too:: the othor roon.

---

## Page 24

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She dle not live ticre, hut hes thince..

the apartment was locked up

Slio cano for a couple of hours,

not every daj, but shen sie wished.

And Illus In my own roon.

LeavInn for the for last, I turned over the seys of my room to the

butlung manager.

I told then that, leaving for allitary serice, 1 vas riviar ip the

room Por rood.

" I

ann nilitary man.

"I will turn it over to you coupletely."

A. That 1s, you cavo it up corplotely.

B. But no, I did not rive it up ((completely)), but I turned it over

((to tho bullding: manager)) then leaving.

A. How did you turn it over:

B. So "-I turnod in tho keys and sold, "T an leaving", and that I

would not ho living there.

Woll, what, then they too! it ovor from you completely!

B. Night; and they even moved someone in.

A. Later, they noved someone in!

B. Later, yes.

1. And your wife:

B. Nell, sho stayed; she hnd the bedroon and the second -- tho daris

one, the study.

•A. You ando the announceuent in Soretstaja Gavan'; you rave your nac:

what address did you give la the netspaper

---

## Page 25

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E. The audross is not sion, iut the adiress of tie respondent is --

not tho diress of the one brincina sult, but of tie respondent.

A.. Bhy are you telling ne rubbisa.

Tat are you thinking, after all -- that you are talling to a child,

or what.

If you vere not divorced and.

B. lhat are you telling me:

Only one address is shown - that of the respondent.

If she is bringing sult, then address of the husband is shown.

And case under review

((XG; A and B spenk at the sane time))

A. And do not make It up. ((Pause))

If you wrote up an announcenent, and it ras publisned, it will, be

show that "IVANOV, Ivan Ivanovich,

B. (1G)

A.

...Llyiog at such and such an address, is bringing gult for divorce

against such and such a person.";". Living at. such and such an

address.

((XG; A'and B speak at the sane tine))

...yon do not know such things, but you vant ne to belleve that

you made an announcement.. ((Pause) ›

thich court, in wiich rayon, received your case for review.

B. The court on Sretenka.

The Rayon. ( (Count)).

A. Phich court.

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B. Me pouple's court

A. The People's court of that, precinct (uchasto!):

B. 1 iu noi renenDer; chere dio serurai précinolo.

A. In shich rayon:

B. I do not remember the rayon.

B. ((Pausc)) That happened then.

Tell me how the case actually progressed in the court.

B. The review of the case too place in the Summer of 1952 when I was

• in Moscow.

A. Tien in the summer of 1952;

B. ((Pause)) May, June, Ilke that.

A. Tell, during the day, eventas, norning:

B. During the day.

d.. Fall, tell about it - who wes present, what was the shole proccdure:

I want to know whether you got & divorce or not:

"ere you there or not.

B. ((Pause)) The court has a maole number of cases.

A. I do not need any "cases"; I need only one thing - to know about

your divorce.

B. The trial proresses; there are the people's judge and tro assessors.

The judre states that Citizen so-and-so is bringing suit for divorce

against so-und-so.

---

## Page 27

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- 23 -

No narriage actually has been teruinated siuce 1011 and the lasts

well, the hasts does not stor any lind of dirt, lut staply the usunl

marrlane problem, "Inconpativility".

The usual thine.

vie had different temperaments, and the marriate actually was terain-

arod, since 1013, they have not been living together.

A .

what cise:

B.

They asked me questions = wether i had changed my nind, whether I

Insist on the divorce.

I said i insisted on a divorce.

They asked hor questions, alout her attitude, she too said that she

did not object to the divorce.

A. The wiie was there:

Yes, she was.

A. . That else was taken into account.

B. Here, weil, you understand, absolutely nothing was decided; the

people's court does not say yes or no.

A. I understand that, but what else was taken into account.

B. The fact was taken into account that we had not been living together

for a long sille; for the court, this is at least a weighty thing.

A. Still another fact:

B. ...And that both sides, that she docs not object.

That 1s, of course.... Both sides want a divorce.

A. Hor did you find out that you toro supposed to lo in court that day.

---

## Page 28

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7.-

Bo Hello jon no to tic court several tines; you find out when the

hearing is coin; to be; you tal tith them, with the secretary of

this precinct; you visit tic judge.

It 18, 40r so casy to see the judge, there nre a thousand pooplo.

If overyone roes in to see tho judre, thore will he no timo for lim

to hold court.

There is sonothing else

B.

mere Is a time for the hearings; and there is a time when the Judge

receives pooplo - they can talk with him.

A. Well, to whom actually are the statements of divorco given:

How aro they recelved.

B. Oh, I do not remember these dotails.

They are clich - actually they are given when you aro boglantag to

file..

there are scerotaries of the precincts; the socretary will

tell you when the judge will rocolvo you, and so forth:

A. Nell, you came to Moscor, and so forth; prolably, you somehow

cormunicated with your wife and let her know that you had arrived.

B.: Ah..: the court sent a notice.

A.

So - the court sent a notice.

B.

•..That the case is set for such and such a date.

A. Which witnesses were present:

в.

There were sone of the fellows with no.

tho was there.

((Trinking)) lho was there:

Vadla IVAiOV was there; he knows her very well.

There vere two other fellors, also, I think.

---

## Page 29

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Л.

tho elso

n. I do not remember.

A:.

mo were sone of her witnesson.

D.. She was there

yos, sho was there with hor

brother, with kostya.

A.

Only

B.

Only with hur brothor.

A. Was the child with hor

в. N, по, по, по, по.

A. What did the court say about tho child.

B. Nothieg.

mis was thocourt which tried to bring about a roconciliation.

An examination wis mado to sec 11 a reconcilintion could be brought

about.

No, It was not possible; actually, we had not been livins together

for several years.

A. Tell, do you have in mind that as a ((in English:)) "considoration",

1t cives you more or less a basis for divorce:

B. And ((1f)) both sides do not object.

A. ...They do not objoct; nut I think that the judge, first of all,

pays attention to the fact that you have a child....

B. A child.

A. And soacthing surely was said.

---

## Page 30

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all .

li.

SomethInt ans Bald ahout ald.

I told him thint I was flour and would ive ald.

A ..

mat kind of n document did the scoples court five to you, attor

the hearingi

B. Papers (Napravlentye) woro branted to take the alvorco to tho city

court.

A. Mat kind of papors.

B. I do not remembor; woll, a papor was given to talo to to city court.

It stated that tho casolad boch oxamined, and it vas: holn transferred

to tho city court - for tho divorce.

A. Thoro did you send tho paper.

B. To tho city court, to thu court of the Clty of loscow.

A. Whore is it located ?

B. I do not remomber.

A. Thera, on that stroet.

B. I do not rememher.

A. Mho was tho judgo:

B. I also do not remember.

d. ihen was

tho case heard in the city court.

B.

I do not reuemher.

A.

tell, after a year, or two.

SEGRET

---

## Page 31

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Ho, to care was inad da 19i.

Л.: Mich.

B. I do tut dumumiri.

In tho Burner of 1052.

1. You have snid sumorn hundred tines -- there are 3 monthe in tho

summer.

B. I cannot tell you.

1. ((Pauso)) Well, No wil borin fron hore - were did you livo at

that timo:

B. I was isth my pryonta.

A. How nuch time did it talo you to lot to this court.

B. Well - I went by nutonobilu - how much time could it havo takon

1. hero did you go by automobile:

B. Holl, I do not renombor, I do not remember, I do not recnber.

A. Thoro did you gọ:

To Scholkovo, or whoro:

In

the city of doscow.

1. . Mit ricre.

B. I do not renenber.

A. How many Moscow cits courts

are

there

---

## Page 32

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mere do it locatod

11. I du not ronenbor ine street.

A. iho is talkins thus.

an employoo of the Second Chlof Directorato?

You do not know here the Moscow City Court.

B.

I uns in this city court only one tine in my cholo lifo

A. You probatily vire there many tines on business.

B.: Only one timo.

1. Ind if you vere not there, then it beans you did not wort oro.

B. I did not worl: In the Investigations Dircctorato; that is why I

did not havo husiness with tho court.

1. Vory bad; overy enployco of the Second Chief Directorate at the same

tlmo lo an Investicator, for your laforuation

B. I, too, workod in the Second Chief Directorate and know how it

operates.

•A. If you knew you would not be saying theso -tupid things.

You do not cyen know

where the loscow City Court ls, and you do not

know in which rayon you lived.

D. Nell, I do not rememher the rayons; I do not remember the rayons.

A. How can a person live in a place for 3 years and not know the rayon:

You do not even know in which rayon liarodnaya Street 1s.

Not to mention that ono -- Sretinia; Sretinia Is a long street, guite

---

## Page 33

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lonr..

and lt is the eloneot....

B. I can toll bow to not there; (smilin:) I do not remember the rayon.

A. If i vere In your place I would not be sailin - because this is a

Try serlous thin, and we are talking shout scitous things.

If I did not attach any siunificance to it, lt made no difference to

me what rayon it vas; I could spit on 1t

A. I an not playing knucklo-hones here.

B. I also an not playing knuc!:lc-bones, I think; 1 an in prison, and

am not just altting talking with you nt the tablo..

A.. You still are not in prison, but you soon will be:

Renember that.

If it continuos this way, we will not have ary other way out. ((Pruse))

I triod to putyou on tho right track, it you do not vant it, it is

up to you.

Woll, toll no about how the caso wont in the city court

B. There was a vory brief hearing; again, tho same procedure as in the

rayon court.

The judgos. runt out ((to their clambers)); the hearing took a low

minutos; thoy wont out;, then they returned; "The court is in session"--

everyone stood up.

They renucrod a decision for divorce.

A. You always funt make general statements.

B:

Because

8 do not renember these details; you vant me to five details,

I do not remonior then; I did not try to remember them; I do not

rementer nhunt this.

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## Page 34

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- 33 -

1. I thinio that a man who dot a divorce one time iu his life would

remonior it very well. ((Pause))

Welf, no vere your witnesses.

In the oblast, or city court.

B. Villa Ivor again vas there, and OrLor; ORLOV - a kind of pal

was there.

And there vas a third one, I think.

I do not remember.

A .

What did they have to say there

Why were they needed there:

B.. Here, по one asked them anything.

IVANOV as asked something in the rayon court; he told then whatever

it vas.

But here, no one asked anything.

Who was her witness:

B.. Her brother, Konstantin.

A.

And who else:

B. No one else.

A. You know that the brother - in

tie Soviet Union, his testimony is

accepted by the court, but...

B. And they did not ask. hin for a word there.

Kostya probably cane alony with her so that she would not be alone.

A. And there was

no witnesses or anyone:

B.

No.

---

## Page 35

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1. To contire that you

had

not lin living torether.

B. Sic would not have denica it.

sone pouple say maybe soncone else should he asied, because neverthe-

less a checi: is made to see if le did sonetline; right:

B. Tcll, if she denied something, that would he

another matter; then,

the judge rould ass for a witness, because his testlony would not

be sufficient.

A.

fell, if ve put you in the juare's position, could the judge think

tant you had forced her to testify arainst her will:

Someone ins to substantiate her statement that she agrees to a

divorce and that she has no objection.

Perhaps you had said to her, "If you do not tell the court that you

consent to a divorce, I will ill you."

And she gives the testimony.

Soneone has to confirm this, or no

Taice the slaplest thing.

B. They did not ask either witnesses or anyone else in the city court.

A. I agree that she could havo said, and i do not object that she was

agreeable to a divorce and that there were not any questions, but

someone has to say so, hecause there are thousands of such cases -

"All right, I will cive you 5,00 rubles; please go

to the court and

say that you do not want to live with ne."

That is all..

And the divorce is prepared.

a month later it is discovered that "he bought no off for

5,000

rubles"; but, in another case, he says, "If you do not testify

( (as

I wish)) in court, I will cut off your head"; she would he afraid

and tostlly that "I do not vant to live with ila"; but, in fact....

B. I do not know thy, but she ras sitting with her brother, and there

_ SEGRET

---

## Page 36

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wati no.one elso.

A. You understand what I an talking about.

Do Put, it as gret a tira....

A. I understand that it vas not so, but anyray, the court is the court,

and a judge is a judge.

Ho belteved her, but he aust have some kind of confirmation.

B. Rofore the judge hears the case, he will talk It. over with one sido,

ho will talk it over with the other side -- ((1f)) he senses

((something out of order)), he can ask.

I do not know what kind of questions he asked hor.

The judge discusses it with the people.

((Pause)) May I smoke:

A. Yes..

((Pause)). Hould you not say that you also do not look very good

with this divorce, beginning with Sovetskaya Gavan' and ending with

Moscow:

B. Why!

A.

Becauso you do not know where, how, when, what - absolutely nothing.

You were in Sovetskaya Gavan' so many years and cannot remember how

long you were there.

B. Well, we did not live in Sovetskaya Gavan'; I was In Sovetskaya•

Gavan', maybe 2-3 tines (3-1G)... and we did not have that newspaper -

we did not subscribe to it.

A. It is the same thing as your not knowing then you were in kaliningrad.

You do not know what nenspaper it was there, but you gave lectures

on political

affairs, you held political affairs sessions -- and you

do not know what ncaspaper was published there.

( (Long pause) )

---

## Page 37

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- 30 -

I am not riving you such deltente questions of which there are

hundred here -- I know

this was long aro, It 1s fully Indorstandale,

more than 10 yars lns passed, since it netually took place - but

the questions asked here are such that a man can ansver them in his

alcep.

3. I an answering.

Well, we will, we will to back.

Well, what happened to you that you do not know to which lras or

oblast Sovetskaya Grvan' belongs:

B. Well, honest to God!

If you vant to say Khabarovskly Kray, I just cannot say for sure,

becauso that part related to Primorskly Krny... here is Vladivostok,

here is Sovctskaya Gavan'.

1. Voll, what happened after the hearing:

B.

Tho city court

decision stated that I had to pay song kind of court

costs - I do not remember exactly the sum - 500 rubles - i had to

pay the costs.

That Is, he wio Initiates the case has to pay the costs

After I paid... the court handed me a paper showing how nuch i had

to pay:.: after that, I shoved WiGS the decision of the court and

that I had paid.

that kind of paper was it

They put for me one thing -- a stamp in ny officer's identification.

A. And where did you register the fret that they had riven you

a stanp.

D. In the passport.

1. ((Pause)) You still do not resealer in that rayon this vas done.

B. I do not rencuver.

---

## Page 38

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-:;.

indi, too jon, tale le vory strande: 1de not reacahor my rayon

I was 11vtnn on Hoshchanginya Street.

I do not remonier tic

ragon.

I do not renonber the. ragon

In which Thuansingn and liarochys Streets

nI°C.

I do not rementor, nithough 1 mont to vote for officialo to the

people's court or to the Suproar Soviet.

roll, 1 do not rementer.

1. After the ilvorco, you wont to ZAGS; what lind of a documout did

they -Elus you.

D. IGS care me no docuncht, cacopt that a stamp romaruin tho divorce

was put.

A. Again, thle 10 not truo;

sonethint le Given.

B. Toll, alsolutoly nothin!, no docuacnt vas sivel to no.

A :

Vell, any oilicer can forget it; there are aundrous of torceries

made.

B. liell, they put in a stanp, and then a seal is placed on the stamp;

what are you saying:

How can you counterfeit it.

A.

tell, of course, if you

Ilved in the Sovict Union, you must know

that hundreds of people did such things after the var.

And cren now they continue to do this.

They l00': for those who do not pay their alisony, and so on, as nuch

as you wish

A. I do not know; I did not counterfeit the staap.

B. I did not say you counteriolted the stamp, but the stamp is not

cnolgh; thore has to le a confimation of this stamp.

---

## Page 39

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13 :

Well, time cunftrmation is that they sent the escentive lotter

(court deciaton regarding alimony.

A. Me crocutlue lotter is only one thine a 1t conctrus that vou aro

pay inis alimony: they can

award the althony.

They can force you to pay even thouth you are not living tonether,

In order to support a chela.

B. Well, I did sec the exccutive letter which

they sent probably

Indicating that the marringe was dissolved..

A. If it ls dissolvod, 1t is so indicatod; it sometimos also happens

so that a mirriage te not dissolved, but they pay almony.

B.. 401l, the exccutive lotter indicates if tho marringo lg or su'not

dissolved.

And they did not alve the executive letter..

A. I am not talking about the executive

letter.

B. I did not have uny more do

nts. of any kind.

A. Alright, let us take n break.

((A buzzes for the guard))

((XM -= not on tapo))

...Now you are snying something else.

Earlier you said that yo! cane to Noscow, were on leave, went to

the Baltic area, returned and got a divorce, then gain went to the

Baltic area, then to Moscow.

Now it turns out that you came to doscow, remained there all the

time until you got a divorce, and then went to the Baltie.

What is the truth:

I want to hear this more or less articulately.

---

## Page 40

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- 30) -

(apparently luchin stachtly) dticulately a both court Bearings

took place in 1952.

I do not

remember the month.

A. ( (Pausc))

the othor?

Tell, How much time elapsed betreen one court hearing and

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A.

Botweon the prople's court and the eity court.

B. I do not know how long.

A. How do you osplnin such a long lonvo of absunco,

B. My loave was for two months.

A.. For what ronson:

B. But, that is nccording to rogulations.:

A. On what basla:

B. It is counted this way: one month for travel and one month for

leave.

Why a month for travol and a month for lcave:

Look, in the far East leave is given once in threo years.

A.

Yes,

one time in three years.

в. Хов.

A.

Plense, tell how it is.

Well, I say - for three years;

well, alright, I was not there for

20 years.

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## Page 41

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Leave of absonce is given proclsely for three years ((Pause))

woll, pleaso...

3. Two months are alven; tis thelvues travel:

1.. ((Apparently writing)) Two nonths leave, with travol.

B. At the und of the third yent offleers usually recolve monctary

compensation = no munth's pay, for the third your.

Holl; I did not recolve It bechuse I did not spend three years there.

Woll, why do thoy elve such leave:

Bocause it is a long my to travel.

What - is lt not known to you that monotary compensation never was

paid for loave in the sovlot Army, and It li not now:

Why are you shuffling in soncthing that is not needed.

B. I am not shuffling in anything; I au tollyou you as I know it.

You.

are always trying to.

d. I am trying to.i:.

But there is no such thing - thes don't Elve compensation!

And they nover paid It.

((Pause)) If you were an officer, what procedure existed then you

were In the Far East for giving officers leaver

B.

Once in three years, two months - Including. travel -- and for the

third year spent there, a month's pay.

d. You do not know.

Well, answer this simple question, a leadin; one - how many years

((of service)) Elves one the right to leave wen in the Far East,

and how nany

times

must you talie leave if you are in the Par East

В. Нси паду усатв.

Just a minute.

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## Page 42

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- 1;!

How many chaos, ond wen le leave stren to an offteer to tirrel

avay

fron the fnr bast,

nnd how many times mist

he spond its leave

there ((In the. For list)). ((Pause))

The procodure wis Iike this ee an offleer serving there sets both

Icave without lenvin

the Far Fast and leave to travel awy from

tho Far Enst.

mo tete leave without losind the for East and the recolvest to

lcave tho arca.

B.

Wo novor had such a procedure hocause none of the fellows would

agroo to spend his lcave there:

1. ((Pauso)) I know that no one would agroo.

Evoryono would Ilko to travel evory

yenr....

B. No, thoy uld not let you go; It was onco. In thico years.

And you rocolve... they count it this way - one month's lenve, one

month's travel, lf you go by rail:

You got 12-15 days for this, one way to Moscow.

And back -- that amounts to

a month

A.

Why a month for travel time:

((Pauso)) Thero Is a limit..:

B. Listen to me... Just a minute... listen -= after one yoar... I

menn, for three years, you have the right, you go on leave - one

timc, lot us say, to Leningrad, Moscow, Khar'kov, or Klev -- It 18

not important.

You are given two montha leave,

If you want, you can 50 by rall - you will spend 25, 26 days

trnvoling there and back.

If you want, you can

5o by plane; but you are given orders for train

travel - that to what you

are entitled.

And, for the third year, the fellows receive compensation.

A.

There never was any componsation.

---

## Page 43

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- 42. -

13:

They pald, they provided compensation.

A. No will not argue rizut tils.

When did you arrive in the Far Fast:

B.

Well, nost llkely, in the fall od

1050 - approximately nt the end

of October - around about then.

A.

Then you were to have leave for 195l:

Is you wore thoro -- that is, a nonth ((of leavo)).

B. And for 1952:

A. Well, the year 1052 had just bogan.

B. I did not go on leave anymoro

In 1952.

A. Well, where:

In December, you again went on lcave.

B.

At the very end of December, for..

I took loave 1n January.

80...

for 1953:

A.

Who gives leave in January:

B. Well, please, the conmander of the unit will bive it with pleasure

in January..:

May I smoke:

But, hero he did not want to lot me go on leave; I got help.

A. Well, how much time did you spend in Moscow:

When did you come to Moscon on loave ((from the Far East)):

B. I came to Moscow shortly before May - at the very end of April; 1

took an airplano.

I had the ontire month of slay and June for loave.

---

## Page 44

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well, May and June.

In Haj, you nade the announcesent soncahere: and in June, jour case

wns heard in the people's court; la July -- you said, in the sunner

tine - you lind a hearing in the city cours.

then did all of this affair come to an end.

with the court.

B. In Sunner 1952; I do not rencaber exactly.

A. But they could not give you more than two nonths: we can imagine

that for somo reason...

B. In July the question of the place where I as to serve was decided.

The question was that they suggested also that I study.

Then there

was the question about ((going to)) Germany.

Then, here, In July, the question of eliminating all of the

bases 1n

Gernany was decided.

There remained only the base in Berlin; everyone left.

A.

In what month did you leave Noscow.

B. Around August.

A.

Nell, anyway, how do you explain that at the beginning you told Mr.

BAGLEY another story:

B.. Hell, I tried to remenier:

Kell, very well, I tried to remember.

Tried to reuenher how It was.

A.

So - have you now reneabered:

B. ((Pause)) Well, It seems to he that all of this business with both

courts mis

wurkod out in the sunder of 1952.

A .

hill, anyony, that kind of proccdure exists (2-30)

---

## Page 45

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i do not now shat the

procedure is; of course, lasted to have cats

matter querted up, calle tan in doscow.

1: You nirived frow the far East officlally: or 111

you no on leave;

or don did this hoprea:

В.

I went un leive officially.

A. You officially went on leave.

Yell, you nirived in loscow -- that was the first thing you did

mere did you rogister, as an officer who lind nirived fron the far

East.

B. I did not register any where, not lu the way you have in mind -

not in the kommandatura or anywhere.

I telophored to Personnel, spoke with KALOSIN; I related the regards

from HEL'NIKOY from lAy'ToY, chlef of information, iy direct.

Immodiate superior.

A.

It does not interest me whose regard you tendored.

B. ((Pause)) I said that I was going to he. In Moscow, or near

Moscoy,

at the dacha.

1..'

That I vould not 5o anywere, even south.

A.

Did you submit any kind of document to Personnol after the divorce:

B.

No, I submitted nothing.

Л'.

that - was it not necessary:

((Did you want)) still to be hung up with a wife mose inther hac

been imprisoned:

Has it not necessary. to clear up the case so that it would not seea...

B.

Hell, weil, well, 1, I, & told, of courso, that I had rotten a

divorce.

caer

---

## Page 46

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Vell, 8 me on leare.

Mach I lost, l probably pold, inortoe coat l would le risene tu il

and -June.

B.

le will leave tils question.

Lool: here; do you linow this decument.

181 shows là the lichne listol po acacta ladrovs)

"Lichnys Matol: po uchetu indrov"

Yes, I linvo scon, I have scen it; but I do not renomber that I

comploted it.

((Talking to Himself:)) Tiese questions aro in. the aniota.

lut I do not remember that 1 fillod it out; I do not remember.

A. Woll, did you ovor seo it:

D. In porsonal files.

A. What kind of porsonal files:

B. I saw them in porsonal files.

A. Yoll, for oxample, with what kind of porsonal files is this connectod.

B. I do not remember.

I saw this form; I saw it.

A. Thoro.

Under what circumstances did you see this form.

B. I cannot tell you.

A. ((Long pauso)) Well, for your Information, 1l you ind worlod lo tao

Second Chiof Directorate, then you must know it very well and aust

know with what it is connected.

SECRET

---

## Page 47

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Ten mentonnatre we made in the Sortet baton In 1906, on 27

September.

1. Su..

1. It was ((used)) before that, and it stall ls:

It even sas ((used)) beforg the war.

B.

Well, I think... you inow wint this Is:

1is 18 for civillane... for Interpreter-transintor's porsonal 11l0g.

I think It 19 for clulllans.

A. This 18 not tho roply of an omployce of tho Sucond Chiol Diroctorato,

an omployee of tho KGB.

B. Woll, I uld not work In Porsonnol; I do not isnow.

A. What has Personnel to do with iti

It has absolutoly nothine to do with porsonnol.

Evory man the worked...

B..

Woll, I did not fill it out; I do not remembor.

A. And, here, If you aro a Party member, 1e a quostion - every man is

asked for how long ho has bcon a Komsomol member.

B. You usually write that in another questionnaire -- "Were you a

Komsomol menher beforo: "

And you 11l1 In the years in which you were a member.

A. Besides that, it asks if you had heen abroad, including service in

the Soviet Army.

Givo the date, month and year; the date, month and year.

People who handle this case,

If a person does not romenher....

B.

lell, Pergonnel - they will put it

In order, clean it up.

SECRET

---

## Page 48

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A. They always holp you.

Tico, for a scrutceman, the sate alaya in put in.

Here in the pork completed, fron the berntnt, Including military

service.

Elisewlse, the dats, month

and yon, ls voltton. In -- entored on duty

ond loft; the position with

the orcontention or institution is

Indtentod.

Tho loention - overything, - is asked In dotail.

Mint langungos do you know.

Ovor-all tom of sorvico in tho Army:

((etc. -= A continuos tho list of quostions Included in the form))

B. All of these questions vero in tho questionalro; I comploto the

noswry to all of those questions; but I did not fill out this

questionnatro.

74a18 Listok, on mysolf -- I did not comploto 1t.

A. That 18 brd.

B.

NO.

A.: Most of those questions aro in tho Ankota; I told you about this

oarlier.

And thero wero no objoctions.

But this Listok Is only on four pages.

B. And, i think, the KGB does not have this.

A. ((Pause)) Well, I soo that you do not - how do they say:

As you said, in regard to tho ABIDIAN Caso -- you do not lou! too

Good; this is

niso the caso with regard to ((your statenents)) on

your first marriare, your first divorco, if not worse than in the

ABIDIAN Casc.

((Pauso)) Do you agreo with this or not.

((Pause) ) Nell, stint.

---

## Page 49

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i. Completoly.

1 never net for mybeld the ala to renenter chen trot a divorce, to

reacher how, to rementer

want kind of paper l moto.

Л.

liot fur that alone a n man must rencober were no served; you du

not even know tils.

You do not even know wint neuspapor was there - or in mich oblast

Sovetainya Cavan belongs.

You do not now the siuplest thing

oblast and a kray.

- tho differenco betwoen

an

llow can this he explainod:

B. I do not lnow how to explain.

1.. Men, I do not know wint you studlod in the Instituto of International

#clations.

You had such sclentific wonders there, professors, including academical

one of thom in cography.

B. . PARAMSKIY.

A. ((Pauso)) Toll mo brielly how did you become acquninted with your

second sulfo, and

how did you come to get mariled, and viere.

B. In the borinning of 1953, in Moscow, in January-lebruary, when the

question about me hind been resulved, i vas vacationing -- I went for

a wee!: or two or onc and a half to various holiday houses (Dom

otdyliha) around

Moscow.

I sag at Sochl; I rested at the Gertsen Sanitorlum, were I became

acquainted with my wife.

A.

Hell, won did you decide to set marited.

well, appro:nately shen -- In February, In January.

B.

In February.

SECRET

;

---

## Page 50

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To Eclouncy.

oll, shen vas the acclaion made to rt carted

D .

roll, 1 inted. hor after tiat.

Vie talled about marrlare.

A. Hall, you talled alout mirlace, and you declded to set inurles, so:

B. Yes, but I cannot tell you men we decided to not married.

Mion:

B. Voll, at the beginning of 1953.

Officially, officlaily, wo rogistered in Juno.

1.. Null, why did you choose jund, Instead of another month:

What was the bagls for this -- why was it not in llay or July, but

• In Juno:

Mhat....

в.

Sho, well, when we set In fobruary, sho still was in.

I was in kubinka not for long - for a

weok, or two; sho still was

there in March.

I went to see her several. times in barch

A. Well, you saw her in liarch, in March... you saw her...

B. No even were datine in April.

Yell, I thought first I would settle the natter of my work;

I would

begla work; then everything could be done officially.

I began

work.

((Pauso)) Hell, It is difficult for me to say why ve registered

precisely In June and not in May.

A.

then did you register.

---

## Page 51

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*. -

1. On tio. 27th of June.

A. On the 27th of June.

Why on the 27th of June.

B. Milo ls the date that vas destinited ly anGs.

A. Hell, In what ZAGS was this.

B.

This was at the

ZAGS at her place of residence; she lived on

• Scraftnovich Stroot, in Duilding #2, the scenth entrance.

A. ((Repeaté address; (thon:)) How many bulldings are there on

Seralinovich

Street:

B. It is a very short

stroot; it beging at the bride, there are largo

stone buildings, and here, as the continuation of Saraf imovich Street

1s Bol'shaya Polyanka.

Here, in fact, is one building, on the right. - Government Building.

But, on the loft side, a small bullding, near the bridge.

A.

What was your address on leshchanskaya Street:

B. Pervaya Meshchanskaya Street, Building #62/61.

A: #62/61; apartment:

B. It secms it was #71.

A.

74; and on Scrafimovich Strect, on which floor did your wife live:

B.

On the 7th floor, also; Apartment #140.

A.

Then it also was the 7th entrance:

B. No; the 7th entrance.....

---

## Page 52

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On Serntnovten Strect.

B. Full la! 12.

A. Seventh entrance, soventh floor, the apartnent.

13.

#110.

А.

And here, the address on Meshchanskaya Strect was 162/67:

в. . 61.

A. 61; Apartment #74i

B. Apartment 171, yes.

1. And on Gor kly Street, what was the address:

B. Building #9; apartment #43.

A ...

What floor of Building #9:

B. The third floor, yes...

A.. Third floor; apartment #43.

B.

#43.

A. And what was the address on

Granovskly Street:

B. On Granovskly Street, Building #3.

A. Building #3, and the floor:

B. licil, you know, there is a seal-baschent; there lived the servants

---

## Page 53

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-

and

sunris; le is considered the first floor; you cont up one fliht

of stalis.

A. The first floor.

ipartncut.

B. The flest floor: I think it was

760.

1. Well, vory well; anyway, why uns the date chosen:

B. "Ticll, the date

was not chosen by us.

You understand; you como in... when he submitted the statement, they

rave us two woeks - it is some kind of now rogulation -- two wooks.

so that people can thini; about it, because thoy told you, this le

a serious step, one has to think about, irelsh the matter.

And they set tho date of 27 June for us.

On the 27th of June; what is the procoss for rogistration:

B.. We cano in on the 27th - ZAGS.

Thero was'a small roon; thore were severnl rooms; in one room birth

certificates are Issued, and certificates on death; and in the

other

room, you registor for marriage.

A. ( (Laughs))

Perhaps you could even get a death certificate at the

sane time.

B.

Vell, it was funny, really -- such an laportant date; all of this

together.

ilow did you answer the question of wether you vere married beforo:

B. "Yes, I nas".

A. That docunents did you suhalt ((to shos)) that you vere divorced

---

## Page 54

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1 do not renontee; o thin: that l ild not

present any doctacntr.

I simplj

andtonted

that I had been

dorced.

I vas asiod If I had been mrriod; I sald, "yes, i had boon.

How many tines. "

"Only once".

"Vivorced."

"Yo3."

"Then: "

"In 1952".

((Thint was)) all.

Л.

vell, they cannot just railster you; they do not tale your word.

It is not done that way in tho Soviet Union.

в.

They, they have in mind these two wecks; they probably do sonothing,

during tho two wooks.

((XG; A and B speak at tip sane timo))

Yell, I do not know, but I do not remember nay kind of a documont.

A.. Moy mako a check it onco.

B. But I do not. remombor any kind of a document.

1. They malie ono lumedintely, right there.

B. Right thore, there were thosc questions.

A. Well, the question i8 assed: "Yere you narried beforo:"

B. Yes, I was.

1.

How did it end... how many tines.

B. One tine.

---

## Page 55

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A. Hop dha tho marotot ond

B.

1178 divereed ta 1952

A. So - thes have to have sonctatne to contire tuls.

"It 15 bettor ((lor 2NGS)) that I wilte this dom' (la refers to

preparation of documentary contrmation leferchand))

You understand,

B.

Hell, I will be hold answerablo in necordance with law, I rm

responsible = if i llo I an linble to prosecution; I will bo

proscouted if I lu, If I say. that 1 was not muriod.

A. You yoursolf know, if people did not lle, it would not la necessary

to issue lass; thoy would not be nooded.

B. That 1s true; ond 1f I lle, I must answer for it

A.: Not only in the Soviot Union.

Thoro aro thousands of peoplo,

who

B. If ho 1s caught in this, lie will be tried for it.

A.

Woll, they prosccuto; they forco payment of alluony, and so forth

especlally ll thore are childron (A tallis about some divorco

procedures))

but It Is necessary, to have somo lind of docent ((to show)) that

you renlly

are divorced.

It Is not enough to say, "Yes, I was marriod and I got divorced in

such-and-such a month".

B. I do not rencaber, I do not renember, I do not remember, I do not

rescaber.

1. Nell, if you did not present any locuments....

. ua...

---

## Page 56

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i !s.

Hello 1 do not conomier.

... When you were divorced, they could not register you.

I am nettle at the fact that thore met be something.

B. I tell you I de not romunhor tiat I sloved a document.

Tho only document 1 had was the offloor's luentification, in intch

tho atamp vas placed, and l hau turned it over ((to the KGB)).

1. You hnd not had the officor's Identification for n long timo.

-You vere arcady worriny; in KGß, and you had not had it for a lony

t.lmo.

B. I do not rememhor havin: presented. any kind of document, no; I do

not romember.

A. Well, I.will asle you araln - shat document did you rocoivo when

you divorced your first wifo:

B. I did not got any documont, cycopt the %AGS stamp in my officer's

Identification.

A. That Isn't enough.

Thoy could put this in for you later on the lasis. of some document:

B. On tho basis of the court deciston of which the city court tave me,

they put a stamp in uy identification..

A. We have already come to the conclusion that the court decision 18

sent to the local rayon LAGS for your place of residenco.

B. And I was given by the court a paper; they even gave me two of them -

according to onc, I had pald the court fees; and the other was to be

presented to

the LAGS.

Л.

Tic court fee ins paid on the spot.

SEGRET

---

## Page 57

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-

in the marie of these papers..

D. The court fees

ne not pald on the spot, but no puld Into the

sartuos ban; os the loent book.

I fust thnnot hind out shat sind

of docmunt pon cocotred; and you

do not knor...

B. I do not reacter:

I do not reacabor; no, no.

Do you renenber who uns your witness wich you vent to ZAGS to

rorister.

B. Tie tro of us vont; thero vere no friends; thore was no one riith us.

A. fell, it was the flist on to congratulate you on your marilaro:

1. The leman who registored us; ve registored....

• A.

I nonn, your relatives; where did you go right aftor you loft tho zics.

B.

Innedintely after the WiGS, vo vent to Scrafimovicli Stroot, and then

wo richt to the dichn; nud that very day at the dacha we hid the

wodaing.

Our parents had congratulatod us when we made the announcoment.

A.

Then, on

that day, at the dacha, you had the wedding,

on 27 Juno:

B.

((Speaks with uncertainty))

Yes.

A. Did you invitc KOBULOV:

B. ((Pause; then speaks

with uncertainty)) No.

A.

Why not.

He had reconnended you for work; ((you tere)) good friends.

---

## Page 58

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do No Invited close friendr.

A .

Hell, why dld you not notte konior.

1: 2Vr2 m9

sow he vas not enrlier, ls vas.

E.

ile was not a close friond..

Mero were only closo frienda; i said, "thoso ino voro cluso irdonda".

A.

Has VAIIRUSILEY thero.

B. : No.

But where was ho nt this. time:

B. . I do not know.

"A.: Ho also was a good irlend.

-...

B. He was an acquaintanco; hu sas a Iriend, yes.

I knew bln at tho Institute.

And our dachas wore noxt to each other in Arkhangel' skoye whon I

studied at the Institute.

A. What is intoresting around Arkhangel'skoye.

B. Near Moscow, there nre tro Arlhangel' skoyes.

1.

! an speal in about the place where your dacha ras.

B.

lext to the sanatortun for rencrals; this is the former YUSUPOY

Palace.

A. And what else.

---

## Page 59

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That ta all;

that te a bit catato en the duStPor Palner, the

anacortun for penerals.

Л.

what else of Interent in there

B. mat is all; and f. those. ) dachas; nothing nore..

A. Is there

a larpo villaro (selo) noarly:

B.

Before you come to thu place of these dachas, there is a amnll,

small village; not larso.

A. And thero is tho socond Arkhangel'skoyo:

B. And tho socond Arkhangel'skoyc ((Pauso)) -- I was thoro twico.

Tho second Arkhangol'skoyo.. uhh.. I will tell you right now... lot

us sco... alonir the road.

What kind of hirlway:

(The followinr, In tho ortginal transcript. was found not to havo.

ben in the tape revlewed: "At the heginning, you leave Hoscow In.

the direction of nukovo; and then the rond going to Vnukovo 5o0g

to the rilht, and you go straight. I do not remember."))

A. Well, who of the KGB employces vere present at your wedding:

B. KUTYRIV, Gorgly Yakovlevich was there, and RAKOVSKIY, Feltis --

two peoplo.

..-

A.

Then

there as not anyone else from KGB.

В.

NO.

And VAIJIRUSHEV was not there.

B.

NO.

---

## Page 60

104-10227-10011

A. And you did not irolte soculo;

в. No.

i. iull, you understand -. the date of the 27th also has concting

special about It.

P. Why do I tell you:

Way do I remember.

Bocause I remombor that it becane known that this vag

3. the day tart

( (BERIYA)) was arrested.

A. From who and how did you find out:

B. It was late, lato in the evening.

A courier cano to tho dacha.

Father and MALYSIIEV canc out.

They receivod a document (('paper')) from the Tsk.

Then this was lnte in the evening on tho 27th:

B. Yes, on the 27th, yos.

A.

Well, did this disturb the wedding;

B. No, no; of courso, they vere upset: (XG)

*=.

((Pause)) I remember that father loft with MALYSHEV; they were usset;

VANNIKOV was thore.

Let me see - wio olse tas thero.

There vas much coming and going.

ily father told me not to mention anything to anyono.

And what impressed ne was that neither father, nor HALYSHEV, nor

VANNIKOV... but VANNIKOr had been a very close to RaRIYA.

A. Why was he closo:

---

## Page 61

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i. My sat ic close.

icalise, as soon

as the

mr ended, during the vr VAlOV had

worked..: there mas the Narion, the Ministry of Armanents.

but, after thu to ended, he worked all of these years in the

atonic inuusti,.

The atonic industry, as slich, ins

on administration, it was not a

ministry, but a special adainistration under the Council of Ministers.

LERIYA headed the industry; and VMNIKOV ms its organizor and first

chief.

Nell, why was he close:

I do not know; he was close to BERIYA in nny case.

A. In shat year did AALYSIEV die:

• B. HALYSIEV died at the beginning of 1957, exactly half a year, exactly

s1% months nftor fathor's death.

A. And VANNIKOV?

B. And VANNIKOY, later, later, when he no longer was working -- He

was retired.

A. In 1960.

B:

•I do not remembor, I do not renember VANNIKOY.

A.

Now, the whole old guard has died.

B.

Hell, look, LIKIACHIV, for several nonths, lay 1ll,

at the same tine

25

father..

A.

That happened to LINlACHEY:

B. He

died of heart trouble and a brain henorrhage.

He made such prophetic statements:

"Well, here, Ivan -- when my

father vas llving in Barvilha -- "soon the end will cose; first me,

---

## Page 62

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then

And so lt turned out.

Mey ipt lads death fron father.

YUDI: also died.

A. sho was ho.

B. He too was a ninister; he cane in after the var.

He was not onc of

the pre-var types.

A :

Well, anyway, I can not understand how you rogistered if you did not

present a document indicating that you had been divorced.

B. Well, I do not

remember that I presented a document.

I do not remenbor.

I simply wns asked if I had beon married.

"Yes."

"Divorcod:".

"Yes."

"When: "

"In 1952"

That did your wife do the first year you werc married and before.

She was studying at the Moscow State University, In the philolory

Faculty, with concentration on journalisi.

A.

Did she work anywhere:

Had she been

studying anything clso

She did not work anyshero.

Later, she studied -- wich we were married -- by correspondence in

the Institute of Foreign Languages.

She received work at home, went there one of two thes a month.

Wich language did she study.

---

## Page 63

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derman.

A. Uld the studly anywore else.

B. No; at school; after school..

A. You sald that sho: took some kind of lessong fron

soncone:

from whom.

B. Thoro must be an crror hero.

A.. Or was. It tho first wife who was studying:

B. Sho studlod draving; tho first wifo.

A. With whom did sho study:

• B. At ono timo she studiod with SOKOLOV-SKALYA -- there 1a such n

artist - I heard that she had studied with him.

A.

And with Mom elso:

B. I do not know any moro.

Juch a long.... It secns...

( XG) •

A.

And who studied at tho SurIkov studio.

B. Oh, the painter; well, she -- tho first ((wife)) -- studied with

him; ((Laughs)) but in fact, she did not study.

A. You said that you vero in this studlo several times.

B. I cane there one thno, che time.

A ..

Icre is the studio located:

B. I do not remenher.

---

## Page 64

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It

in not n

stualo: 19 lad school.

A. You know where the MET YAO SlY GalleT Is

Bo Vichl, tisla.... Ci seens to laply that ereryone knows the tallerys

location))

A. Do you know its address.

B. I do not remenher the audress.

I know how to rot thore; lt ia closo to Surafinovich Stroot; I do-

not renchbor the street.

But I inow how to get thoro.

1. Hero you at the TRaT'YAKOVSkIY Gallery at lenst once:

B. I ung thero several times.

A. Well, thie SURIKOV Studlo also is in the IRST'YAKOVSKIY Gallory.

в. No, по, по, по.

Sho did not study thera.

No, по, по, по.

A. Thon why did you say that she had studied at the SuRIkor Studio.

B. I said that sho studted at in art school; but what it was called -

SURIKOV or whatever --i do not know.

She studied at an art school; she told ne; I even vent there once,

When I learned that she was not koing to

stidy

. . . .

1. You sald for sure tint she studied in the SixItor Studio and that

you vure there.

B. I did not say the studio.

I sald in an art

school; I thou ht it was the SIlkov ((Studio)).

---

## Page 65

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aul not at the terranta callery.

A .

lirill, tino atiriln...

D. A ntudlo le not a schuol; a studlo and a echool are different taluss.

Do you vant to eo throuch the school and the studlo

Do I do not want anything. an...

Mantever you wint, ploaro.

A. I luat want to any that, parlier, you sald one think, and now you ne

mayin:: anothor.

((Pause)) liell, plunso toll us - after you and your wito ronisterod

you cano to her ((paronts)).

B. icll, ve alrendy ilvod there, is lived there; i llved on Seraflnovich

untli rollstration of the marriane, tho officinl recintration.

A. Until the official rocistration.

llow long did you

Ilve torother hefore the registration:

B. I think, approximatoly two wooke.

Why

Because to had a small party.

well, what kind of party.

Well, ly parents cano to their apartment =- lother and fathor.

I thin's this vas when we sulaltted tho doclaration ((of intention))

to register to cot married.

And fron that time i llved on Seraftmovich.

A.

Well, then you actunlly bugan to live together beforo the registration

of the narriage.i

13.

Vell, for two rceks.

A.

licil, who cise uns at this party when your parents came to sen her

paronts.

---

## Page 66

104-10227-10011

Only her nother and father: her brother was

there

wis not thoro.

zoya, bor minter, me pronent; there me no one cise.

A. Your prichto vore there, and mio clac

B. No one elso.

licr paronta vere there, and hot ulnter, a student.

We11, now, I, of courso, calculnto that, as you said, tho rouletration

was set for the 27th... tho reilstration of the marringo....

B. Noll, to talkod about...

1. To hold a party, so forth; you lnd agreod on tho 27th; and

probably, as you said, tho party, tho party vas hold at your dacha

B. At tho docha, at Carviltha.

A. Tho pooplo vere notifiod a couplo of days in advance that there

would bo a party.

B. Woll, of courso.

A:. Givo mo the names, the small ones and tho big ones, of tho peoplo

who wero present at this party.

B. At tho party, at the party, before the logistration of the marriare....

1. No, no; I an talking about after the rogistration, when the wedding

was hold.

Then, I told you those won vere fellows in the sane room at nork

with nc....

A. KUTYKEY....

---

## Page 67

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- 0:

Bo ind incrockle Fellit.

1. MiOUSlY, and there vas no ono olse:

•B. No one ulso.

A. lino of tho Irlondh of your ille wore there:

B. No ono; I thine thoro vas no ono.

Her closo friend, lorn, was not there; sho did not vant to Invite hor.

A. Thon none of her Irlonde vero present:

B. No.

A. That is strange.

B. Holl, sho had close friends - this Nora.

And thon at one time she sas frlonds... she was Irlends with... but..

during tho tine of the registration, the solations with the brother's

wife voro spoiled:.. ( Zoya and Zol' ta:)

A.

ill right, then none of her frionde vero present:

B.

No.

A.. There was your wile working at that time:

B. Sho was not porkinti

she. vag studying (1-2G).

1. At what institute or university tag sbo?

B. Sho was nt Moscow University.

A. Nt tho Moscow State University; then there was no one ((fron)) there

((at tho party) ):

---

## Page 68

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!. No.

A.

dot even ((one)) of the notructors of the (fotudents))

B. No uno, absolutely no ono.

Absolutoly.

B. No; no ono, no ono.

A. Alricht; well, wo will borin - Mio amon your wito's relativos

nore proacht at this party.

B. Toll, tho mothor and father.

A.

Nother, fathor.

B. Sistor Zoya; tho brothor ins not there; 1 do not think ho vas around;

porhaps ho was vacationing; he was not in hoscow.

Ho was not with his wife.

Thus, from hor sido, the mother her grandmother -- that is, her

father's nother -- was thore.

A. The father's mothor..

B. The sistor of the father, without her hugband.

So; others.

B. That was all.

A. Now, on your side ((of the faally)).

B. Nother and father.

Nother and Inthor;

who olsc.

-

.

---

## Page 69

it.) -

104-10227-10011

D. Grandiother

= naternal a she mi

almys llocd with one daughter and

She mae here.

there at that time, sho has

then lth another.

A. ({1n Enolish)) 0.k.

B. Thero vere the reintivos.

well, I do not count my brother • he vas still sinll.

A, Hell, tho frun among your father's frionde.

B. 01 the iriends, there was silYSily, with lils wifo; and thior

daughter, Liya.

1: : Llya or Lillyaï

B. Liya.

À.

well, how do you say it - slaply, Llya, and nothing moron

B. Liya.

Ä. Well, you know — conpared with Nad'ya - Nadyasha, etc.

B. No; Ilya, Llya -- such a strango namo.

A. ((en English)) OK.

KALYSIEY with his wife;

who else;

Lusya KOSYGINA was there, Drhernon GVISHIANI, with her husband.

((PauSe)) VAININOY vas

thore, with his wife, with Revcika L'vovna.

((Pause)) LALYS!LEV - I said; VANNIKOV - I said.

He Invited OKOPOV; he was there, with his wifo.

A. OKOPOY also 18 dead

CRET

---

## Page 70

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- 11-

N: O.:OPOY also 15 dead.

в.

YcS.

A. Men did he die?

B. After fathor, lator.

A .

No cigo:

B. Lot no soo - Klavdiya Andrcyouna LOSYGINA..

KOSYGIN hinself was not at tho weddine; sho was there - the wife

of KOSYGIN.

That is what I remember.

Then:

Who else was there:

Oh; yes; Vadin IVANOV mis present.

1.. Who is that - your friend from work?

B. No, not from work; I had known him for a long time; I had known him

since 1945

I do not remember, I do not resember ho cise.

A.

so- who among your wife's father's friends vere there?

'Well, 'he was a big nan.

B. There was no one; not the KOROBOVs -- no one.

A. That kind of relations were there between GISIANI and STALIN:

B. I do not know, I do not Inow; this is the first time I have heard

this - about a family relationship between GISHINI and STALIN --

this is the first time I have heard of it.

A.

Yell, with BERIYA.

SECRET

---

## Page 71

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B. This in the firet tiac also i

have hoard of this --a

relatlonships.

There wis no fanily colationship.

fantly of

A. And GIS lINI suffered in

no way after the arrest of BEkIYA.

B. GVISHIANI, Until DENIYA's arrest vas Chief of the Directorato In

Kuylyshev; he suffered -- he ins removed from his work and was put

out of the Party, and, and....

A.

You have that Dzhermen ((GVISHIANI)) 1d mindi

B. No, his father, his father.

A. I am saying -- what kind of rolations wero there betoen GY ISHIANI

and STALIN:

Woll, then, GVISILIANI's fathor was the Chief of (1C).

B.

Why vith STALINi

Why with STALIN

I do not understand.

A. We will return

to this; if you do not know...

GISHIANI's father was

chief..

B. Of a directorate of the KGB, IVD, MGB, In Fubyshov

A. And that - sas he removed after the arrest of BERIYA:

'..

5. Yes, they removed him.

A. Tiey put him out of the Party:

B. They put him out of the party, and he did not even let a pension.

A. And when did they re-establish his pension:

SEGRET

---

## Page 72

• 7: -

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n. I do not know mother they re-catalished it, very many ee such as

MANDER, FEDOTE, Inter - ((recelvod)) no kind of ponsion, nothim.

A .

fiell, they

vere not to hiane for everythint.

Thoy Collored soconc's orders.

D. well, here - Flotor tou a ton for 10 rubles.

A. It was possible for him not to work -- ho can trito very voll.

B. Ic 16 an old man (XG)

1. And, woll, Dalerica GISHlAll sufforod in no vayi

3. Absolutoly in. no way.

1.

what kind of worl: did he have under DERIYA:

Do you know.

в.

You havo tho son in mind:

A. Yes.

B. I tiln's that immedlately after he finished the institute ho began

working in this GNTX.

A. There was not GNTh then.

B.

Weil, it was not the GNTi; it was called differently; it was the

Cormittee of Scientific Infornation; It chanted Its name several

tineg..

A. ((Pause)) Nell, all of these people whon you mentioned were there:

D. Those are all I renenber.

SEGRET

---

## Page 73

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N. Mind, want sas sald ne the

bitto and no foot ee how dite ornernch

and wint happened

He must have leen upset; min father and coried for arill for a long

illu.

How did he lenave In thla.

Thnt mis his reaction.

I do not renember.

I did not say anything to anyone; I only heard this from inthor;

rathor and iNLYSlEY - they voro setting there, talling.

...

Noll, 1f your father and HALYSILEV knew, tell, cortninly VANNIKOV

also know; right:

Vell, of courso..

And VANNIKOV here, and then they told KOalNIKoY, to my wilos

father.

A.

KOSYGIN's wilo, certainly, his wito ilso found out fron KOSYGIN and

GV ISITANI

B.

Hell, I, I do not redembor such a reaction.

Well, perlinps

it occurred to hun that his father would ho prested.

I do not know höw it was.

A.

well, perhaps they did not arrest him, the father, at that time.

Perhaps this hapcened later; I do not insist ou this.

((Pauso)) Very well; woll, how did

the party continue as usual, or

did it brea!: up.

B. Of course, there ins not...

vell, bochuse the big shots....

A.

l'ell, of course, you knew that you vere an esployee of the KGB, or

of the MVD; your Minister had lech arrested, well, what kind of steps

did you tai:e.

---

## Page 74

104-10227-10011

son mald that you were on a threesyn leaver.

B. I alsolutely did not tale sus klad of stope.

A. Tell, did you not even chil at wore to find out sint happenos

Tant and how.

that la one nupposed to do, won sonothing nunnl has happenod.

B.

Woll, thoy would call me tere I vas nocdod; I had a tolophono.

voll, of courso, thore ins the telephono; but did no uno call you

D. Absolutely nothing.

1. Chis you, in your own words, tell we -- now how BEllyd was arrosted -

whnt was happoniny in Moscow it that timor

Tho day bofore BiRIYA vag nrrusted, sovoral days boforo, nt the time

of the arrost and after tho arrest?

Want was going on In Moscow.

what ospocially was notod by all -- espocially, of course, hy the

((KGI3)) omployoog.

Bo: .:.Or courso, the troops vore drawn in, to Moscow;

even.

well,

what clso vas noted:

Tamanstaya Division - a prominent one -- arrived... uh...

In Moscow -

I"do not know from whore.

((Pause)) What eluo uns noted:

A. Vell, what find of questions did the Noscow residents asis nt that

timo:

((Prusc)) Well, very well, the three-day honcymoon had passed; you

vCre

on leave - tho 27th, 20th, and 29th had

passed.

B. I thin': I also was at the dacha on ilonday.

A. ((in English)) o.K.

---

## Page 75

104-10227-10011

You cane on tuesday or matever day to tae you cone to vort.

13. Violl, they were running around file ants.

A. Violl, now "Illio ants":

Mint, in particular.

((Pauso)) Miain, thoro will ben scorcanention, and so forth.

A.

Well, tint is understood; that. could bo.

B. I think it immodiatoly was known, wen I airived, that the Ministor

WAS KRUGLON:

A. So - uno voro tho doputios:

B. I do not romember.

SERV was thoro, of courso.

A. Noll, we havo talkod about this, mayo you can romomber somothing

INUGLOY, SEROV, who olsO:

B. I do not romember:

A.

well, I think anyway you must remember

B: I do not remember; woll, I would toll you - why should I hido it:

A. How long did FEDOTOY worl: under UGLOV:

B. Then, so -- voll, ho vas vorking in 1951.

In 1955, I thinks, he. was

not there -- at the beglaning of 1955 -

becauso in 1951, In 1951, It mns decided, yes, in 1953-51, the

problem was resolved concerning the wives of corrcspondents.

Many correspondents

were married to Russians and a decision was made

---

## Page 76

104-10227-10011

tint to paralt then to leave....

Because liany, many times, the correspondents

and the cinbasales

poseú this question.

I remenher that Frborol vam

there - shon thin question was boin!

resolved - filo summaries cre written out on each correspondent

and on his wilfol

Ic, FEDOTOV, was a very cinctint man, and he almsell corrected all

of those filo summarles.

They reairite then several tines.

N. But

thals is not so interesting.

B. No, I simply am saying that this is My I rocall this - that

FIDOTOV alroady was in charye of this vork.

A. Ten, what are you thinking - tint ho was rensred in 1951.

B. In 1055, In the beginning.

1055 - уов, уов, увя.

In 1052, FEDOTOV vas there:

A. To replacod himi

B. GRILNOY.

A. tho conductod the neeting of the Sccond Chiot Directorato and

esplained why. explained the docision of the Tsk:

:B. I do not remomber, and I do not even rementer aor it was conducted.

In, in any casc, vas not at such a mooting.

In the Dopartnents, the chiefs of departments...

vere talking...

1. ((Pauso)) To at that tize, in KRUGLOV's tine, ho anong the

Secretaries of TSK KPSS ((CC CPSU)) was appointed Deputy to KPUGLOY:

B. Of the Secrotarles of the Tsk KISS.

---

## Page 77

104-10227-10011

1. You.

B.

I do not know, I

do not inow, I do not renomier.

1. (chun: pause)) fiell, wu of the Scerctartea of the Toi 1555, being

at the pano time a Secretary of the tsk liPss, offlolnily vas

announced to he Doputs of the Ministry of internal Afialre under

KRUGLOV:

B. I do not romembor, I do

not know, I do not remomber.

1. ((Pause)) This 18 Ind.

B.' I toll you that I do not renemlor, unless you prompt no:

A.

Thoy corgot to tell you about this.

((Pause)) I think I do not hnve to prompt you.

Ho was a bir man... Wio at the sane timo hold the position of a

Socretary In tho Tsk...

B. And Doputy to KRUGLOV:

A. And was Deputy Ministor for Internal Affairs.

B. You havo mado some lind of lit mistake.

A. This is not any mistake.

B.

Very well; I do not know this; tell me.

A. I do not intend to do tint.

B. No, no; I absolutely do not linow about this matter.

A. Then, later IJIRUSHCHEV banished this nan to the fir Fast, and he

worked there in Party work.

---

## Page 78

104-10227-10011

If you workon there, then you know to ho in..

((Lon: pauso)) hell, mo else was deputy to KRUGlOr:

B. I do not remelier.

A. ((Pause)) licll, this is very Interestiny -- It was n long intoral

of timo - until they orranteed tie Kon.

SERoV ung not the only Deputy:

B.

No.

Л.

Well, who

B. I toll you that i do not remember.

A .

woll. ((Pausc))

Where was the Intelligence Directorate of the MVD located at that time:

B. I do not linow; do you havo tho First Directorato in uind.

• • A.

Well, 11 you call it the First Diroctorate, lot it bo the First.

B. It was in Bulding #2... at the Exhibition... thore was

a part on

Kisol'nyy; and, besides that, in tho Comittee of Information.

1. Thoro in Bullding #2'3

B. I do not linow, I do not know.

1.

((Pauso)) Then you do not know wore the First Chief Directorate

vas situeted in Building #2:

B. Well, in the new building; where

else:

A. but where:

---

## Page 79

104-10227-10011

B. Nell, on various floors, they are on various floors: moll, the

First Department was on the ütinth floor -I know more, with

81 on

I had contact; and the rest, I do not know.

A. What - after 10 years, you do not know where it was

B. He knew it was in the new butlding,

Gutlding #2, in the new building.

A. But where -- "at the Bihluition":

B. I never was at the shibition; I do not know the building.

A. Well, were, in the KI?

B: I do not know;

I was not thore, either.

A.- And where was the KI located:

B. I do not know, I do not know; I was not there.

A. And what did they do on kiselyy Street:

B. A part of the Directorate was there; employees were there.

A.

were you ever on Kisel'nyy Street:

B. Yes.

A. That was housed there, besides this.

B. Housed there... later....was the Higher School... a part of the

Seventa Directorate....

A.

So - what else.

B. That is all.

---

## Page 80

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-!.

Was the ligher School and part uf the Serouth

Directorate located

on

Kiscl'nyy Strect.

B. Hell, you know that they

wore scattered; and the School had Its ow

building, at the beginning of Leningradskaya illphiny beyond tho

Blorusskly Railway Station.

A.

well, what ms beyond the relorussily kalliny Station.

B. Just across the bridge..:

the Belorusskly Railwy Station..,

the

bridge... on the left sido, there wis the Schöol.

1. That kind of a school was It:?

B. I never vas there; but I know there was a school... of the KGL.

A. Well, what kind ((of a school)):

B. ((Pause)) a higher school.

A. Well, what kind of a higher school:.

B. I do not know; I did not study there; I do not know.

• t

So - on Kisel'nyy Strect, there vas a higher school and a part of

the Seventh Directorate.

that else:

B..

A part of the First Directorate.

Part of the First Directorate.

B.

Yes.

A.

That else:

SECRET

---

## Page 81

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A. Did you not apenis with the caler of totelllect

D. No, no one called me.

ilere, I, being in Moscow, I found out that canine, the Deputy,

-alroady lad become the Chlor ir place of vlee dantral fOroNTSoY tilo

ung the Chief of the GRu.

low, cxplain

to me how you tot off tho Konsomol rolls In Sovetskaya

Gavan' and how and wien you dot on the konsonol rolls in the Baltle

arca.

B. I did not got off tho rolls in Sovotslayà Gavan' becauso I uld not

know that I would not roturn.

A.

What happened then;

And when I cams to Sovets!: -- Primorskly Sovotsk -- tho MRP, thoro

was a primary komsomol orcanization, and thoy took mo on the rools;

I told them

I was on tho rolls in Sovotskyn Gavan'

what did they doi

How did they know that you were on tho rolls in Sovutskaya Gavan'!

B. Tell, there is an order putting ne on the roster in the ARP of the

Pourth Navy Flcot, of Intelligenco of the Fourth Navy Floot.

This Is an officinl order.

It is not as though ((B's surnane)) came and thought this up.

"ell, ve must conclude that you do not know about this.

((Pause)) Nost likely you were not a very good konsanol membor;

many timos you did not pay your ronsomol dues.

There were

always bly lapses

of time.

It took you three months

to net into the KGB, and you were

on leave.

2or a long timo.

men you went tu the inltie area....

---

## Page 82

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Well, did an one as: jou,.. no one ask you for sone document.

1l 1a not crous just to menton it.

B.

I nhowed the vificor's identifleation -- that there ans a stinp in it.

A. Well, to sion, when, whore.

B. I do not reacter, I do not resember, I do not remember.

A. ((Pauso)) HoT long did 1t talie to decido to send you

to the Baltic

aroa:

Whore and how ((was it decided)).

B. In July.

GRU Personnel of tho Ministry of the Navy.

A. With whom did you speak?

B. With KALOSHIN.

A. With whom else:

B. There were other employees, but I do not remember their names.

KALOSHIN was the onc who mado the decision.

Well, KALOSHIN is a big

man; of course, he does not have to be

concerned with all these matters.

B. Well, he apparently gave this case

to soncono, but I spoke to him;

he spoke

with ae.

A.

And no one else.

B.

Sone

officers fros the Personnel Division talked to me when I went

there;

I do so? resenber their names; I telephoned hin.

SEGRET

---

## Page 83

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i do not know nine.

A. liello wint would

the Seventh

Atrectornte ie doin" thore

D. And even now a part of the Serenta Directorate ls there.

that fron the seventh Directorate is there

D. The Tentia Dopartment.

that. did it do.

B. The Tenth Departnent has various tasks.

((The reel tape ended at tuls point.))

((End of keel #10))

SECRET

---