REPORT OF INTERROGATION OF AUGUST 1, 1965 DEVOTED TO A REVIEW OF SUBJECT'S MILITARY RANKS AND AWARDS.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 8/11/65
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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104-10211-10066

- it.

11 August 196821

BUBJECT: Report of Interrogation of 10 August 1965

1.

Today's session as from 1100 to 1200

and from

1300

to 1500.

It van largoly devoted to a review of Sab

Ject's military ranks and awards, but inevitably a number

of related topics were touched upon.

Subject was also

quentloned about bis father's funeral, and about sembers

of the presidiun and the Sovlet Governont generally.

Subjoct one first asked whos and where ho first

entered on active milltary service.

Be said that normally

people sore called up at the age of 18, and I told bia tbat

the ago uns 19, bat 18 11 the person has tle equivalent of

a full secondary education.

He said he was sever called

Into the aray, 'but recelvod'a deferrent because ho tas a

student et the Inatitute of International Relationa.

'In

June or July 1917, at the end of his second year at tbe

Institute be recolved the rank of fr. Lt of the Reserve.

es did all his classmates.

He received his first voyemarr

bilet (VB) at the end. of 1945 or eurly 1946, at the

rayvoyenkount for his place of relidence at Ul Granovkogo,

be said be thought 1t might have been Krmenopresnenskly

ragon (this is correct, and

1n the first tine be bas cor-

rectly mentioned a rayon in which he llved).

This was an

ordinny enlisted man's YB.

In 1947 this TB as replaced

with an officer's VB.

In kelther case vas Subject able to

Save an adequate description of bow the docuents vere

isaed, nor did be have any 1des of what vas in tben.

does not know in what branch of service be vas (except

Ele

that it was not the navy), what bis coster /catogory/ me.

or his MOS.

He said that the allitary registration dest

as located in the voyenkonat, bereas prlor to 1958 they

vore actually located in the M111t1a Section.

service hen

Brbjoct snid tbat to Iirst vent on active silltery

no entered Naval. GRU.

Tble vas In October

S2UZT

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' are eat,

2.

1950, although the processing had started in the spring.

deroglutored fron the rayvoyonkomat in September.

He loft for the Far Bost imediately.

Questioned about

the procedures involved in processing for bla departuro,

Bubjoct was totally unable to describe the correct docu

and even said that he travelled in

nest# and procedure"s subject had ever been a nayal offt-

civilian clothes.

cor anywhore (or for that mattor an officer in any branch

of service) he could essily have lavented satiafactory

anvers to my elesentary questions instead he appeared to

be

leprovlaing answers on the basis of very inadequate

knowledge.

Embjoct gave the following chronology of bie

military ranks:

July 1947 - Jr. Lt. of the Beserve

October 1950

Jr. Lt.

Apr11 1951 (while in Far Bast) - Lt.

April 1953 (1n HVD) - Sr. LE.

October 1959 (ICE) - Capt.

October-Hovember 1963 (KGB) - It. Colonel

In no intance does be remenber who signed the order of bla

pronotion to a nor military rank (normally, one would

remember at least a few).

I told Subject that 1t one n

posalble for him to have been promoted is the HYD in April

1933, or at any tias in March-June and even later In 1953-

because not one single person in the MVD was promoted at

this time.

He looked astounded and at first seemed unde

cided wbat line to take, but finally said that he couldn't

may about anyone else, but he was sure that he received

his promotion at that time.

(In fact, this 1s excluded.

A11 promotions vere held up fron Beria until late 1953.)

B.

Bubject said that be was pat up for captain in

1956, but that the promotion vas blocked by LYALIl-who

was deputy chairman at that time and a member of the pro

motion board-on the grounds that Subject should be made

to wnlt because of shortcomings in his vork.

Subject

said that be was proposed for major in 1959, but only re-

celved captain.

At that time, he was promised by GRIBAITOV

that he vould be promoted directly to Lt. Colonel the

=e=: "1= = =d th16-happened. I told Subject tirt

SECRET:

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thir. vas Inpossible,

and pointed out to hin that not even

tho.astropaut. GAGAEIM.had.been.ablo.to.sklp a rant.. Sub

Ject simply inslated that this is what had bappened. He

suld that he didn't know why he should have gotten such

spocial treateent, and could only suppose that allowance

vas nade for his

long stretch as & 8r. Lt. and the fact

that ho vas a doputy chief of department.

(Subject's

stor does not hold vater no matter bor you turn it; even

11 hle career had proceeded normally he would not have

been eligible for It. Col, before 1964.) Asked why he had

previously told un that he had been a rajor (in the auto

blography prepared in Frankfurt), Subject said he did not

think we would believe the true story.

6.

Subject was then questioned briefly on the famou

VD Incident.

His story about the investigation of this

Incident does not conform to normal practice in such cases,

and 1s not believable.

Still worse 1e his account of the

consequences this lncident had on his Konsorol standing.

Be maintains that the vzyokantya (punishment) was removed

from his rocord in October 1954, Just a few months after

the Incident.

This 1s never done In less than a year,..

especially for such a surious offense.

His explanation:

that this was done to enable him to leave the Komonol be

cause of age without a black mart on his record is siaply

abaurd:

for a IGB officer to leave the Komsonol because

of age and without entering the. Party 1s a black mark in

itself, and would knevitably nean expulsion from the KGB.

Bubject was completely unable to describe the procedure

Involved In turning in his Konsonol card.

Fe admitted

that he was the only member of the SCD who was not either

In the Konsonol or the Party, but maintained that no one

had over even talked to him about 1t.

Subject snid he received the following medals

and awards:

Medal for Victory over Cermany - 1945-46

Medal for Defense of Moscow - 1915-46

Medal 40 Years Soviet Army - 1957

Medal 3rd Class, for Honorable Service,

10 Joars -

1962 or 1963

Order of led Star - end 1961

Is regard to the ledal for Honorable Service,

10

year,

Subject first sald be received it in March 1969,

then corrected himself and said 1962. ' Asked why not 'in

1960. (1t takes into account both military and KGB service).

Fubjoct said he dida't know way 1t ina so late, that 1t

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was porsonnel's fault, posalbly because of the reorganiza-

tion of the SCD.

Those are nonsonsical answers, and 1t

is obvions that Subjoct is unsure about when he should bave

received this nodal, renembers the previous interrogation,

and 1s being careful.

Asked what he recolved the Order of the Red Star for,

Subjoct was entremely evasive.

He claimed not to remember

the exact formlation of the order, and perhaps slippod

when he said "For excoptional performanco of aission."

When I asked his what nisaion, he said that it was just 10r

cood work in general.

Bubject also snid that in 1959 he was put in for the

Order of the Rod Banner because of his tourlet recrultants,

but did not get it, probably because he was transferred to

the first Dopartnent at the time.

Reminded about his pre-

vous boasts about the Order. of Lesin, be said that 1t. was

promised to him in 1963 but he did not receive it. Sub

Ject did not say what it would have been for.

the Deerzhinskly Menorial in front of the KGB bullding.

didn't remember when it was opened or where be ras at the

time. He refused to estinate rhether this took place

ander BERIYA, KRUCIOY, SIROV, SEBLEPIN, OF SENICHASTITY,

and looked unconfortable when reminded that it was a very

big event, attended by DZERZHINSKIY'® "ife and son, among

othere.

birtbday of Soviet State Security-and was attended by

KKRUSICHXV and all other presidium members.)

Bubject was asked to describe his father's funeral.

This he did in a satisfactory manner.

Asked shere be had

come from to attend this funeral,

Subject replied that be

was in Moscow all the time of his father's illness from:

May 1956 until his denth in August 1956 with the exception

of a few days TDY in Klev (this would be for the BURGI

case, about which Subject will be questioned next time).

Of possible Interest 1a Subject's remark, appropos of noth-

Img in particular, that the portrait of his father that

hung in the House of Columns and as published in the papers

it the tino of als death eas not a socd likesess.

SESTET

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10.

Bone tine was spent questioni:, Subject on the

residences and private liven of the soviet hotrarchy

especially those who lived either at Granovakly or Seraft-

novich Streete.

The resulte were leconclusive:

Subject

did cot make any mistakes, nor. did he have my sensational

revelations.

Asked what residences be personally vinited,

he said only BULGANIN, KOSYGIN, MALYSKEY, TIMOSIELO,

NIKOYAN (dacha), • SECHERBAROV.

Subject said he did not tnot

There KOBULOV lived. In Hoscow.

11.

At the end of tbe session Subject vas remiaded

that proviously he had said that be received his firat Vu

in Leniagrad®

Fo adaitted that thia was vrong, but said

he got some sort of documents connected with his schooline

through the joyontonat in leningrad; however, be could not

ponember what docusente they were.

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Report of Interrogation of 10 August 1965

Lo today's session vaa from 1100to, 1200 and Iron 1300 to 1500. Il vas largely...

devorod to a revion of subject'a idlitary rares and stards, but inevitable

a maber of related topica vere touched upa. Subjeet vas also questioned

about his father's funral, and about menbors of the praesidtum and the Soviet

goverament genarally.

2o Subject was first askor when an where he first entered on activs military

servioes botut lo sald that normally peoplo vera calloe up at the ago ol 18,

and I told his that the do was 19, but 18 1f lbe person has the equivelant of

• Mall se ontary education. lo sa's he vas sorer callei into the ermy, but

received a dsferment bocause ho vas a atuient at the Instituto of International

Rolations, In June or ruly 1947 per at the end of his second your at the..

Irsultute he reoeived the rank of tre It of the Reserve, as did ala his olasstes•

In rocoired his first Jovennur bllet (VB) at the one of 1945 or earl: 1946,

tora tha ravroyonkonat i his place of residenco soon osborates

he sald he thought. thace 1t sight have been K'asnepresensd

won (this 1s correat, and is the lirat tine he has arntdoned e rayon in whie

VA vas replaced with an officer's VB. In seither case was Subjeot able to

Ev an adequate description of hor the coements were haaued, nor did he have

ang Idea of what was In them. He dses not know 1t what branci of service

ho was (oxcept that it was not the navy), what his magy soster /outegory/.

Ms, or hiMS. Ho said that/mlitary rogiatration dest

tas located in the

voymont, uberona prior to 1958 thay vere notually localne-la las iiiitla

#tat Sectionse

Do Subjeet said that be first

active military service won he enteral

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Havel GRU. Thia was 111 Cetober 1950, although the processing had started in the

springo fo seregistered Iros the rayvoyenkomat In Septo la left for the Far

Fast imediately, ta Questioned about the procedures. Involved In processing

for his departure, Subjet was totall; unable to describe the correct

documents une procedures, and even sale that he travelled in civilian clothes.

If Sabject had over bean a naval officer anyuhere (or for that mattor an

officer in ery branch of servico) ho could easily haro invented satisfactory

ansvers to my elementary questionsen instead he appeared to je improvising

ansvors on the basis of very inaco uate knoslodgo.

Na Sableot L'ave the following chronology of his military rankes

÷

July 1947 • o • Jro Lto of the Reserve

October 1950 lo St. Ista

Apr1] 1951 (valdo 1n Far Fast) Ito

AprIl 1953 (15 AUD) : . a ST. It.

Osteber 1959 (KGS) • • • Capto.

Det In 1963 (KC3) o• It Colonl

In no Instance does he renmber the signed the ender of his promotion to « ner

u!1itary rank (Dormal17, onerould recenber at loast a few). I told Subjeet that

16 vas impossible for kin to have been pronoted in the MVD 15 Apr11 1933, ar

An any timo In Marol - June 1858 an even later in 1953 - because not one

single person in the MVD was pronted at this tine. Ho looked astoundod an

8t firas sooned undooldod what line to take, but finally said that he oculdalt

may about anyone else, but he ves sure that he recoived his promotion at that

1lmo (In fact, this 18 exaluded.

promotions were hald ip Iron Birde

uat1l Late 1953.

So Sabjoot sald thet he vas put ep f.1 captela la 1975, bart that the promotion wel

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blooked by INALIll, a who vas doputy chairan at that tike and a member of

the procetion board = on the frounds that taschale Subject should bo made to

wait bocause of shortooningel, his worko subject said that he vas proposed for

major 1n 1959, but only recolved captain. At that time, ho was pro ined by.

GRIBANOV that ho woule be prontod dirootly to It, Colonel the nest tima.

around, and this happenedo I told Subject that this was Impossiblo, and pointed

out to his that not oven the astronaut GAïARlN has bean able to exip a rank.

Subjeot simply insisted that this 18 what had happened. Ho said that ho didn't

know why ho should have gotten such spoolal treatment, and could daly suppose

that allevane was made for his long stretch as a Ste lt. and the fact that

he was a doputy chief of departrents (Subject's story does not hold mater no

enttor wbat way you turn 1ty even 1I hla career hai proooodei normally he would

not have bees alfgible for It. Col before 1966r1 Asked why he hail previously

told us that ho had boen a rajor (in the autobiograuty prepared in Frankiert),

Subjoot anti ho ild not thins se roulé believe the true storyo

6o Subject uns then questioned briefly'on the Innus VD Inoideit. Ms story

about the Investigation of this inolent does not confern to normal practine

1n such casos, und 13 not bellerable, St1ll vorte 18 his account of the

consequences this Ineident had on hii Konsoml standing. le aintains that

the Mayakandra Miaor was renoved fro: his record in Oct 1956, Just a lon

monthe artor ibo isoldent. Thla de% never done In lesa than a joer, espeoially

for such a sorious offense. His elplanaiion that this vas done to nable in

alonly absurde: for li all officer/to leavo the tomosol bocaten ds age and ulthout

antering the party 18 s black mark In 120019, and vuld troustably moan

expediton Mom to la Subjoet y es cosplotaly mublo to doperlbo to proceduro

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Involved in turning 1n hia Korscrol carto le admitrod that be vas the only

member of the SCD who vas not estbar in the forsonal or the Party, bus melntlmi

that no one had over even talked to bin about sto

7. Subjeot undo he receivod the following reiels and avardar

Medal for Victory over Cerary

1945-66

• For Dufeneo of Yoscow

1945-6

"

40 feare Soviet Argy

1957

" 3nd Class, For Honorable Service, 10 yearS

Oner of Red Star

end 1961 =

1962 ar 2963

In rogard to the ladal for Hunarable Service, 10 years, Sauject first

said hè recoived 1t Is March 1963, then currected hincolf and sald 1962. Asked

why not in 1960 (1t tries Into accourt both militury and KG3 sorvice), Subjeot

oald bo didn't know way 1t was so lato, that 1t was personal's fault, possibly

bosaure of the reorganization of the SCD. Those are nonsennical anere, and it

a 18 obulous that Subject 1s unrure about when he should here recolted thie

rainly: ronembera. the previova interrogilos, and 1s being carenel.

Naked ak what he rochered the order of the Red Star fer, Subject was

extranely ovasive. He claired not to renmber the exact formulatlon of the

ordar, and perhapo alipped when be said "for exceptional perfor-ance of uisolen."

Whon I asked him, what alnaton, he said sukt that it was just for good work.

1n general.

Subjoct also said that In 1959 he was put in for the Order of the Red Branera

gutact bocause of his tourist rooraitrents, but did nor got 1t,

probably because he was transfered to the Frst Dept at the t1m. Ruminied

about his pravions bosses abort the oner el lanir, he said that de mas prosieed

Do him In 1963 but he die sot roodire 1o Subjeet dia not suy what 1t would have :

been for.

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Bo I asked Subject 1! he had uitended the ayening of the Deerphinealy

Manorial see in front of the KGB buildingo Subject quickly stoposa

sald that ho wasn't there and that ho clin't rone-ber when 1t vis

*pened or there he was at the tim. lle refused to estiute thother tbig

took place under Beriya, Frugloy, Sorny, Shelepio, or Serichastigy, and

lookod unconfertabio then reminied that it was a very big event, attendod

by Deershinskig's sio and son, anong others. (It wus opened on 20 Doo 1958-

Alet

the titt birthday of Seviet State Security - an vas attenied by Kirusbeher.

and say other preosidiua rerbera.)

9. subjoot vas aked to deseribe hia fatherls funeral, Info ho did la a Batleraciory.

meer, Avalad whore ho had come ison to attend this: funeral, Subject replied

that ho yes In Moscow all the tire of his father'e 11lneas fion lay 1956 untll

his dith in August 1956 with the ercention al a lou days TDY la kler (this

Winid tao ba for the PURGI Case, about which Sabject vill be questlored nest

Too 0910091628 Isterost de Saljetly rest, Appropos 05 Dolas In

particular, that the rhadaps of his lather that hung in the louse of

Colums and was published in the paiers at the time of his death vas not a good

111an0s8.

10. Sone tre vas spent questioning Subject on the residences of the Soviet

hairarely, espectally ibose who Lived elther it Grano:sliy or Serafinvion

Strosta. alg

attabor the results vere Inconelusive: Subjeet dia not minio

ay notates, aBr dle he have any sensational revalationg. lled that residences

no personally visitod, he said only BULGANIN, DiSIGH, MALISHY, TIN SHENKO,

KIKOTAN (dacha), SCHERBAKOY. Subjerit eala ho did not kou where ELBULOY Ilved

1a Moscoret

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1d-0d0d

1l. At the end of the session Subject as re-inded that previounly z b

said that ho racieved his first VB in Loningrado. la Brittod tat his vas-urone,

but said he in got so:o sort of docurento connocted with hin schooling through

the voyenkonat in leningrady horever ho could not resember what docu: ente they

were.

aa.

4/0 1:

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