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Date:10/05/93

Page: 1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10150

RECORDS SERIES :

TRANSCRIPT

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : SSCIA

FROM :

TITLE :

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD J. OSBORN

DATE : 08/28/75

PAGES : 96

SUBJECTS :

CIA

GIANCANA, SAM

MAHEU, ROBERT

CASTRO

ROSELLI, JOHNNY

HARVEY, WILLIAM

PAPICH, SAM

GAMBINO

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION : T

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS : P

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 09/30/93

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

Box 255

Folder 8

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

NH 50955 DooId: 32281990

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TESTIMONY OF HOWARD J. OSBORN, ACCOMPANIED

BY JOHN W. DEBELIUS, COUNSEL

Mr. Osborn. My name is Howard J. Osborn, 1224, Mottron

McLean,

virginia y

Mr. Wallach. And Counsel, would you just state your name.

Mr. Debelius. The name is John W. Debelius, 570 North

Frederick Avenue, Gaithersburg, Maryland.

Mr. Wallac h. Once again, Mr. Osborn, as the Senator told

you, and as you have been told before, you do have the

full.

spectrum of rights available to you here that you have under

the Constitution, and in particular you do have the right

"to

remain silent if you choose to as to any particular question.

And in addition, you have the right to request that a Senator

be present if you desire that one be here.

Mr. Osborn. Yes.

Mr. Wallach. Very briefly, before Mr. Rhea begins his

questions, I would like to ask if Mr. Debelius is here as your

personal counsel today?

Mr. Osborn. That is right.

Mr. Osborn.

I take it, then that the CIA in no way securedi

MI. Debelius ' representation for you?

Mr. Osborn.

I wish they were paying him, but they are not.

I am.

Mr. Wallach. I will ask Mr. Rhea to begin his segment of

the examination.

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Mr. Osborn. Not to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Rhea. That is all I have. Thank you very much.

(Off the record discussion.)

Mr. Wallach. Mr. Osborn, if you would, just very briefly,

on the subject matter that I am going to be directing your

attention to, the mail programs, the various mail programs that

you may have had knowledge of while you were with the CIA, I

would like to have you very briefly trace your career for us

in briefest terms with the Agency.

Mr. Osborn. All right.

I jointed the Agency on 10 October 1974.

I worked in what was then known as the Office of Collection

and Dissemination, which concerned itself largely with the

collection of any information that had any foreign intelligence

import from other Government departments and agencies such as

the Department of Commerce, the Department of Interior, the

Department of the Treasury, and so forth. It was essentially

a liaison job.

I served there about a year and a half, and I then jointed

the Contact Division of the Office of Operations, which was

concerned with the selection of foreign intelligence information

from American businessmen and private organizations who had

business abroad.

I served there until roughly 1950, when I jointed the

Office of Special Operations,

and me ansioned

to emente

mons

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(INA)

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solter

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Seint:

ooperatito

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industey.

cover for

This division, as I recall, was the Plans Staff of the

Foreign Intelligence Division of the Clandestine Services which

is known as the Deputy Director of Plans, DDP.

I was promoted from that position to be Chief of the Plans

Staff. I served there until 1955, roughly 1955, when I became

Assistant to the Inspector General of the Agency.

I served there until 19 -- correction. I think I joined

the Inspector General's staff in 1954, and I left there in late

1955 to go abroad in the position of depty Chiet of station s

for

Servides in!

Ceman station in Pranklurth

Germary o

After three years in that position I served brifely for

six months as Deputy chie

Base In Berlin.

And then 11 months as Chief of

Base in MontCh,

Geismany

I left there in September 1960 to take the position of

Deputy Chief of the Soviet Russian Division in the Clandestine

Services of the Agency in Washington. I served in that

position for about a year and a half, and then became Chief of

the Soviet Russian Division. And I held that position until

Septemb er of 1963, when I accepted the position of Deputy

Director of the office of security of the Agency.

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Mr. Osborn. To the best of my recollection, I believe they

were.

Mr. Wallach. Going back just a step, I take it that you

had no knowledge of any mail opening projects while you were

with the Inspector General's Office in 1954?

Mr. Osborn. To the best of my recollection, I don't

believe I was briefed on what was then HI LINGUALd and walch!

Subseguentiy became SR-Potirer.

Mr. Wallach. I think those just may have been different

names for the same operation, different divisions.

Mr. Osborn. I think they were, yes, different code names.

They changed them frequently.

MI. Wallach. While you were in Berlin = you said you

WOLE

Mr. Osborn.

Deputy Chiet of Base.

Mr. Wallach. Did you have knowledge of the military's

mail operation over there, mail intercept operation?

Mr. Osborn. I may have had, but I can't recall it spe-

cifically.

Mr. Wallach. Did you subsequently gain knowledge of that

mail intercept operation?

Mr. Osborn. I have heard of it somewhere.

Mr. Wallach. What is the nature of the operation that you

have heard of?

Mr. Osborn.

That the military was intercepting mail. I

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don't know the details.

Mr. Wallach. Have you heard of any arrangements whereby

the German authorities actually provide the mail?

MI. Osborn. I can't recall that, honestly. I may have,

but I can't recall it specifically.

Mr. Wallach. In other words, would it be fair to say that

you are not familiar with that operation?

Mr. Osborn. I am not familiar at all with it.

Mr. Wallach. As I stated before, we have some documents

here, and there are a couple that I think are relevant. And I

would like you to review them later, but I want to get your

state of recollection now. I realize that it is based on

memory of events years ago, and things you read in the paper.

And in no way am I questioning the truth of your memory.

MI. Osborn. I understand.

Mr. Wallach. Could you just give us an overview

of your understanding as to how the -- we will call it the

New York intercept, SiR.

ROIHAR. ON HT LINGUAL, whichever

name

you want to use, developed in the fifties?

Mr. Osborn. I have no specific knowledge of this. It is

a little unusual, but even considering that this is one of the

things, of course, that we reported to Director Schlesinger,

I don't believe we reported this in any detail as to how it

started, because I am not really sure that any of us knew.

I don't recall exactly how it did start. But it was always

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which time I was briefed on this particular operation.

Mr. Wallach. Did you know whether or not the Postmaster

General, the then Postmaster General, I am not sure who it :

was in 1964, July, whoever it was in that position, had

knowledge of the fact that mail was opened in New York City?

Mr. Osborn. To the best of my recollection, I never heard

that he was.

Mr. Wallach.

Had you ever heard either way about the

Attorney General, be it Robert Kennedy or any of his

predecessors?

Mr. Osborn. Not to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Wallach. When you visited New York on this inspection

trip that you described being possibly with Mr. White, do you

FAVORIMi

recall whether or not Mr. Fabrini accompanied you out to the

facility?

Mr. Osborn. I can't recall specifically, but I am sure

that he did.

Mr. Wallach. Did you actually go out tolidle

OK

toco

Koenand

if it was changed?

Mr. Osborn. They had changed it. It was then

80C

the physicall

mas ear

Cho N

sola

OFEL

the ortice of

it was only changed tr idlewild o

during the last three or four years of my tenure as

Director of Security. Prior to that it was right in the

office.

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Mr. Dick. Were you told that it was illegal?

Mr. Osborn. No. I assumed it was. You don't open mail

in peacetime.

Mr. Wallach. Did the Office of Security also run the

project in Washington wereby diplonatle pourches were openade

Mr. Osborn. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Wallach. Do you have any knowledge of the project?

Mr. Osborn. We had some arrangement with the Department

custons

a And it may have been diplomatic

ponches

am not sure that it was, but we did have some

arrangements with Custons.

But I can't recall the details

of it. But I feel sure that we did.

Mr. Wallach.

mallas?

Mr. Osborn. The one I specifically remember was

And I am pretty sure it was diplomatic ponches. But I can't

recall the details, I really can't. But I have a recollection

of this. Ang again, we were doing it just as a mechanism

again. It was the Clendestine Services that had to be calling

the shot of that.

Mr. Wallach. I am just asking for the extent of your

21

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Mr. Osborn. And if we did it fat: Duligs we must have done

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Mr. Osborn. We had totally cooperative arrangement with

Boney 0

Mr. Wallach. With respect to mail?

Mr. Osborn. Anything.

Mr. Wallach. Could you go into that?

Mr. Osborn.

I can't recall the details, but. I can recall

that we used to being inchly sinsitive people through

Customs.

100t

Custong servicest

Mr. Wallach. I am really just asking, not for techniques

or narcotics or training or things like that we are aware of,

but really with respect to

Costoms providing mati

vidi

Pain mail --

that the Postal

could not

provide in certain situations.

Mr. Osborn. I have a recollection that they did cooperate

with us in this respect. And I am sorry that I can't be more

clear on the details.

MI. Wallach. Was there a particular point of contact im

Costoms?

Mr. Osborn. Yes.

Mr: Wallach. Who was that?

Mr. Osborn.

The point of contact that we remember the

best was

a fellow naned dave ellis, that I remember.

Mr. Wallach. And how late was

mlis there lat, costons?

Mr. Osborn. He retired about two and a half years ago.

Mr. Dick. What was his position

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Mr. Osborn. He was a Deputy under: Comm sloner

He had a very high position in Cratoms newid &

castong!

Ellis was

his name.

Mr. Wallach. I note your attorney is taking notes.

May

I ask if those will be provided to the CIA?

Mr. Debelius.

If they will be provided to the CIA it

wouldn't be by me, Mr. Wallach. Really, I am doing it here

to organize my own thoughts. And I would be happy to destroy

them in your presence.

Mr. Wallach. I have absolutely no problem. I was just

wondering if you were going under instructions.

Mr. Debelius. Could we go off the record just a moment?

Mr. Wallach. Surely.

(Off the record discussion.)

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall anybody else in Custons

that

the Agency had contact with on a regular basis?

MI. Osborn.. I can't recall any other, but I am sure there

were others.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall any generic types of operations

that Customs cooperated with?

Mr. Osborn. No. But to the best of my recollection, there

was very little that we would ask Customs to do that they

Wolld

The same is true of immigrationgand

Naturalization and many other departments.

Mr. Dick. Are you familiar with

a sortes of customs:

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operations that terminated in the mid-sixties that involved

interceptions

Propagand from other countries to the US?

Mr. Osborn.

I seem to have heard of this, but I can't ...

recall it specifically. It sounds familiar to me.

Mr. Dick. Do you recall whether in any of those Customs

programs the CIA might have received mail from customs, aacos

to their

Mr. Osborn. Not specifically. And I can clarify one

thing for you now. On this Dulles thing, I am sorry.. It was

not diplomat

Id ponches

It was tim to and from the soviet

Union that

d to take and bring back and reproduce

LOALLY

Duties. And I seem to recall also

in the same context of my discussion with you -- if you ask

me specifically if I knew, I would say no, but I seem to

recall that they did cooperate with us in the matter of

diplonatie jo

... I can't remember a specific instance,

but I recall this.

Mr. Dick. Is that the extent of your recollection?

Mr. Osborn. Yes, really. But this

propagande thing

rings a loud bell in my mind.

Mr. Wallach. Aside from the mail opening projects which

have publically come to light in recent months - and I will

go through them very briefly now - there were the San c

Francisco project, which was repeated two or three times,

the

project in New Orleans which you have mentioned before in the

i...

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59

Communist China from San Francisco.

I said, does Mr. Karamessines approve this?

They said, yes.

I said, does Mr. Helms approve it -- and they

said, we can assume that Mr. Karamessines has got Mr. Helms'

approval.

And I said, I can't assume it. I will have to get it

from him directly.

And I did. I sent one of my fellows, a senior fellow

named Jack Turton. I made arrangements through Mr. Cotter

I believe, to send him out to San Francisco to talk to

the Chief Postal Inspector in San Francisco, and I believe

they set it up so that representatives of the Far East

Division and the Technical Services Division, not the security

people -- I can't recall, but I believe that they were to pose

as Postal Inspectors, with access of certain categories of

mail from Communist China to this country, for the purpose of

photographing exteriors, examining it for possible evidance

of censorship, but I did not know that they were going to open

it, I had no idea they opened the mail. And I found out

socially and personally from one of the people involved about

a year ago that they opened the mail.

Mr. Wallach.

Who was that from?

Mr. Osborn.

A friend ofmine whowas involved,

who is retired from the Agency, a fellow by the name of Rodl

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Kennen &/

Mr. Wallach.

Was Mr. Kaoned actually involved in the

operation?

Mr. Osborn. Yes, he was a part of it.

Mr. Wallach. Do you know Mr. Akashame? .

Mr. Osborn. I am sure there was one, but I never met

anybody named akashan.

Mr. Wallach.

Are you saying, Mr. Osborn,. that the

operation you received approval from Mr. Helms for was not

a mail opening operation?

MI. Osborn. That is right. It was a mail cover:

operation.

Mr. Wallach.

Would it be fair to say, then, that in

gaining that approval from you you were actually misled?

MI. Osborn. Yes, indeed -- I wasn't misled, but per-

haps it seemed when I got out there and found out how easy

it was to get it -- but I don't know, I wasn't told that

they were to open mail.

That isn't the circumstances

under which I briefed Mr. Helms.

Mr. Wallach. Did you discuss this project with Mr.

Cotter?:

Mr. Osborn.

Yes, I discussed it with him, I think, in

arranging the original meeting with Mr. Turton. I don't know

whether Mr. Turton went over and : talked to Mr. Cotter directly,

or whether Mr. Cotter just made the entre with the San Francisco

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63

In other words, I am sure they didn't go to Mr. Cotter

every time they wanted something on a day-to-day relationship.

Mr. Wallach. I have just given Mr. Osborn a copy of

a memorandum dated December 24, 1974, which is in fact after

the time he left on sick leave, and there is no reason to

believe that he was seen it. I would just like him to re-

view it and possibly refresh his recollection.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

MI. WAllach. Back on the record.

I think I misspoke when I gave Mr. Osborn a memo.

It

is a three-page undated memo captioned "Project West Pointer."

I believe it was recently prepared.

But in any event I would like to call your attention

to the last paragraph on the third page which states:

"The main difference between SPOTTER and West Pointer

is that the file shows specific reference to a statement by

the Postal authorities that mail not to go out of Post Office

control. While mail was opened and photographed by Agency

personnel in New York City under SKRONMIR, and not specific

post office approval was given, neither is there written order

not to do so. In West Pointer the opening of mail was

contrary to specific orders that mail was not to out of post

office control."

Mr. Osborn. There you are.

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Mr. Wallach. Is that also your understanding, really?

Mr. Osborn. Yes, very definitely.. This fellow who is

a close friend of mine -- and I don't want to necessarily put

him on the spot, but he is retired and is in Florida --

came back and spent time with me at my home.

And at one

juncture, discussing such things as now, the Senate and the

House, and what is going to happen, he said, well, you know;

you remember that West Coast operation.

And I said, yes.

And he said, you didn't know we opened the mail,

=

did you?

And I said, no, I didn't know you opened the mail.

That was the first time I ever heard they opened it.

Mr. Dick. Are you referring to Mr. Kooner?

Mr. Osborn. Yes.

Mr. Dick. What division was Mr. Kennet in?

Mr. Osborn.

He was with Ish at that time.

Mr. Wallach. I take it by your actions -- this might

be speculation, and if you don't want to answer, feel free

not to.

Mr. Osborn. If I do, I will establish that it is

speculation.

Mr. Wallach.

You would not have approved the West

Coast operation if you knew it involved mail opening?

Mr. Osborn.

I would not have approved it - the

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Director might have approved it, but it wasn't the way

I briefed it, and it wasn't my understanding with Mr. Cotter.

Mr. Wallach. In other words, you did give Mr. Cotter

assurance that this was only a mail cover type of operation?

MI. Osborn.

That was the understanding I had with Mr.

Cotter, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Wallach.

Have you subsequently discussed the

West Coast operation with Mr. Cotter?

Mr. Osborn.

Yes, I have. Since I am under oath,

I had lunch with Bill Cotter and Marv Gentile on Tuesday of

this week, and we naturally discussed this stuff. We went

over the fact that he recalled me, and that both of us were

instrumental in terminating the New York project. And I have

forgotten the exact context, but the San Francisco thing

came up.

And I told him, I didn't even know the mail was

being opened until I talked to rod kenner.

He said, you didn't?

And I said, no.

He said, well, it was. He said, I just found out about

it. I presume through testimony or something.

But that was the essence of my discussion.

Mr. Wallach. Did MI. Cotter talk to you about any

FBI mail opening projects?

Mr. Osborn. No, he did not.

We were in a public res-

taurant. We doubletalked.

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you have any knowledge of it?

Mr. Osborn. The first time I ever saw the Huston Plan

was in the newspapers.

Mr. Wallach. Didn't Mr. Helms know that mail was being

opened in New York in 1971?

Mr. Osborn. Of course he did.

MI. Wallach. Did you know why Mr. Helms would have asked

the President for authority to open mail in 1971, then?

Mr. Osborn. I have no idea.

Mr. Wallach. Calling your attention to a memorandum dated

February 16, 1973, captioned "Visit to Headquarters re SR

POTTER," I will ask you to quickly read that over.

Mr. Osborn. I must have been Iden 18:

Mr. Wallach. The first question would be, do you recall

a meeting in your office at which you notified Mr. Issaeff

that the project would be terminated?

Mx. Osborn. I don't think I dealt with Issaeff. I think

I would have dealt with one of my people. But it could have

been Issaeff. I don't know. I remember suspending it.

Mr. Wallach. And do you remember telling Mr. Issaeff in

words or substance that he should not tell anyone on the CI

Staff that you wanted to tell the Director of the CIA Staff

yourself?

Mr. Osborn. I very probably would have. I had very close

relationships with Jim Angleton professionally.

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memorandum from Chief, CI."

Mr. Wallach. Calling your attention to the first page,

you stated this is Mr. Angleton's handwriting?

Mr. Osborn. Yes.

Mr. Wallach. I realize that most of it is illegible but

I ask if you can read the line that begins with Osborn.

Mr. Osborn. "Osborn said he was under instructions from

Colby to the effect that no pressure should be put on Cotter."

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall discussing that with Mr.

Colby or Mr. Angleton?

PAUL

Washington, D.C. 20003

S.E.,

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about the position that Cotter was in, and he was always

extremely sympathetic. And I don't know what pressure anybody

could put on Cotter.

Mr. Wallach. I believe you briefly touched on this before.

How was the operation actually terminated?

Mr. Osborn. I called in Stan Ense, I believe, who was

then Deputy Director of Security for Investigations and

Operational Support, and I saideSRUPOIMER is terminated as

of now. I think it was in the early afternoon. And that was

the end of it.

Mr. Wallach. In other words, it was then Mr. Colby under

Schlesinger who terminated it?

Mr: Osborn. Yes.

Mr. Wallach. And I take it --

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