BUSINESS MEETING - EXECUTIVE SESSION
Originator: HSCA
Document date: 06/16/1978
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/14/20

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER:

RECORD SERIES :

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

HSCA

180-10116-10326

TRANSCRIPTS OF EXECUTIVE SESSION HEARINGS

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE :

HSCA

BUSINESS MEETING - EXECUTIVE SESSION

DATE: 06/16/1978

PAGES:

26

SUBJECTS :

CONSPIRACY THEORIES, UMBRELLA MAN

ENHANCEMENTS

ZAPRUDER FILM

PHOTOGRAPHS AND FILMS

WC, METHODOLOGY

HSCA, METHODOLOGY

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPTS

CLASSIFICATION : Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: Open in Full

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 08/17/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS : Box 1. Folder title: Executive session business meeting.

v9.1

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EXECUTIVE

SESSION

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BUSINESS MEETING

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FRIDAY, JUNE 16, 1978

House of Representatives,

Select Committee on Assassinations,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:40 a.m., in

Room B-236, United States Capitol, Hon. Louis Stokes, chairman,

presiding.

Present: Representatives Stokes, Preyer, Fauntroy, Burke

Dodd, Edgar, Devine and McKinney.

Also present: B.. R. Blakey, K. Klein, M. Goldsmith, J.

Smith, E. Berning, G. Cornwell and S. Brady.

Mr. Stokes.

A quorum is now present. The committee will

be in order.

The Chair will recognize Professor Blakey.

Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, the matters that will be brought

before the committee this morning deal with the substance of

what procedure of investigation; it would be appropriate

therefore that the meeting be in executive session.

Mr. Stokes. The Chair will entertain a motion.

Mr. Preyer. I so move, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Stokes. It has been properly moved that the committee

XECUTIVE SESSION

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go into executive session

will call the roll.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Stokes.

MI. Stokes.

Aye.

MS .

Berning. Mr.

Devine.

Mr. Devine.

Aye.

Ms.

Berning. Mr. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer.

Aye.

Ms.

Berning. Mr. McKinney.

Mr. McKinney. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Fauntroy.

Mr. Fauntroy. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Thone.

(No response.)

Ms. Berning. Mrs. Burke.

Mrs. Burke. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Sawyer.

(No response.)

Ms. Berning. Mr. Dodd.

(No response.)

Ms. Berning. Mr. Ford.

(No response.)

Ms. Berning. Mr. Fithian.

(No response.)

Ms. Berning.

MI.

Edgar.

for reasons stated and the Clerk

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Rec. No.

116-10326

RG:

ENTRY:

BOX:

233

TAB #:

COPIES/ PPS.

•/CLASS.

ACCESS RESTRICTED

The item identified below has been withdrawn from this file:

File Designation

Date

From

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In the review of this file this item was removed because access to it is

restricted.

Restrictions on records in the National Archives are stated

in general and specific record group

restriction statements which are

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ITHDRAWAL

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Otherwise Restricted Information

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Authority

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Withdrawn by NSCA

John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992 (P.L. 102-526)

NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION

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Let me raise with the committee a second question.

You have had passed to you copies of photographs. The source

was from Time-Life. They are enlarged. The individual you

see sitting on the curb there is the so-called "umbrella

man," with a front view of him. It would be possible if

you knew him, I suppose, to identify him. These pictures

came into our possession in this form only a week or so

ago and the issue I present to you for your resolution is,

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would it be advisable for the committee, with due dignity, to

release these to the press with an effort being made to

solicit anyone who could identify the individuals?

The umbrella man is in no sense a central figure in the

committee's investigation. He is a central figure in the

critical literature. The argument is made that he had an

umbrella on a sunny day and that the umbrella was raised

just before the assassination and was somehow a signal

relating to the assassination.

If it were possible to identify him and have him come

forward, it might be one way which that aspect of the

critical literature could be explained.

Our ability to identify him simply by showing this

photograph to people in Dallas is limited. If we release

it to the press, they could obviously give it nation-wide

circulation.

There are plusses and minuses if we did this. It might

appear to some credible people we are pursuing the umbrella

man theory, which lacks a certain credibility.

On the other hand, if these are printed and we indicate

we don't know who the person is, I suppose one of the first

things that will be raised is, "Why didn't you give it to the

press earlier? We could have identified him at any time."

I don't know that there is an easy answer either way.

I also don't know that this is a terribly important issue,

but if we were to do it, it probably ought to be done now and

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it would require a committee resolution to make them public.

I might add it might also require the permission of Time-

Life, since they are their photographs.

Mr. Dodd. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Stokes.

Mr. Dodd.

Mr. Dodd. I have read that one "Thirty Seconds in

Dallas."

In fact, they even have it that there is a gun in

there; that you open it up and it fires. I just wonder how

many theories

there are. I know the signal theory and I know

about you opening it up and somehow there is a triggering

mechanism in the top of the thing. Those are basically the

two.

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Mr. Blakey. Yes.

Mr. Dodd. The former having a lot more support, I

presume even among the critics, than the latter.

Mr. Blakey. He is one of the mystery figures. It is the

kind of thing people want explained. Why would a man have an

umbrella up on a sunny day?

Mr. Edgar. Do we have that picture with us?

Mr. Blakey. No, we don't. It is part of the Zapruder

film. You can see right below where the President is. It

actually raises just before the assassination. These are

separate pictures.

You can see the umbrella laying right

here to the right of the light post.

This is indeed an

umbrella man.

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Mr. Fauntroy.

The thing that has

always puzzled me about

this is, with all the attention focused upon this

theory,

we have had no one to come forward from Day One to say "I am

he. "

With respect, therefore, to the question, shall we

publish this in the hope of finding the person, I tend

rather to be pessimistic aboutthe prospects.

Mr. Devine. He looks like he is 65 years old in that

picture. That would make him 80 today.

Mr. Fauntroy. No, that is not the man.

The question is, what public relations value is there

to feeling that we are pursuing every lead? I just don't

think it will be productive. If people have been talking

about the umbrella man and he hasn't come forward --

Mr. Dodd. If that is our only public pronouncement, I

think it is going to focus an awful lot of attention on this

one single aspect of the thing. It makes it look as

though we place a lot of credibility in that.

Mr. Stokes. Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar.

One of the suggestions I would have on a

public pronouncement would be to make, on the first or

second

day of public hearings, a major emphasis on this photograph.

That way you would have major IV coverage with a statement

that at the beginning of our hearings -- and this is one of

the unanswered questions -- I kind of agree with Walter,

if we

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go out to thepublic now on this one picture, people will

pick that up and say, "Oh, they are only pursuing that idea

and that thought. "

It would have to be handled very well.

Mr. McKinney. Obviously if I were "the umbrella man"

and all of a sudden people were writing about me, I would

be the last person to come forward.

A president has been shot and who wants the FBI, Secret

Service and everybody else pouring over them because they

were sitting there with an umbrella.

This is the first time we have seen this man's face

and I think we should say many of the critics have mentioned

this umbrella man and we have found no vast importance to

it, but here is his face and would someone please come

forward and tell us if they know him?

The individual himself would be cracy to come forward.

Mr. Blakey. This is the first time there has been a

picture of him from the front. In the past it has always

been a person from behind.

If the background was given to the newspaper people

and the statement was made, "This is only one among a number

of things being pursued by the committee and it is not of

central importance to us, but is a question raised by the

critics and it is a matter of some interest that he be

identified --"

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Mr. Devine..

Have we other photographs

we could have

identified at the same time to lessen the focus on this one?

Mrs. Burke.

I suspect there are other photographs.

Mr. Stokes.

When you release this photo and ask the

press to find out for you who he is, doesn't this lend

credence then to precisely what the press is saying? "See

there, I told you; they haven't found out anything."

I think you just invite that reaction from the press.

Mrs. Burke. Of course, we could indicate we have found

a photograph of the umbrella man, which nobody else has until

now.

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Mr. Devine. But we would want to talk to him as a

witness rather than as a suspect.

Mr. Fauntroy. It would be nice to clear that up one

way or the other.

Mr. McKinney. One thing the critics will say is that

they didn't follow up the umbrella man.

Mr. Dodd. They are going to be saying things for the

next hundred years.

If we go into this thing with that in

mind, we will be basket cases.

Mr. Fauntroy. The idea of a fellow having an umbrella

on a sunny day that is opened up just as the President is

coming by --

Mrs. Burke.

This photograph is after the shooting.

He is calmly sitting there on the curb.

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Mr. Fauntroy.

This photograph is after the shooting.

Mr. Stokes.

Yes.

Mr.Mckinney. He is probably lifting his black umbrella

to indicate some protest.

Mr. Fauntroy. After he is shot he sits down and says

"Well, let's wait here."

Mr. Devine. Do you know what was the temperature that

day?

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Mrs. Burke. About 65.

Mr. Devine. Some people have an umbrella to shield

themselves from the hot sun on a hot day, but 65 in November

wouldn't apply.

Mr. Preyer. Mr. Chairman, would it be possible for Mr.

Blakey to draw up the proposed press release they would

propose to use to release this and see whether it would

meet with your approval?

I agree that how it is presented is crucial. Of course,

it could be misinterpreted regardless of how it is presented.

We are going to be a loser on this one any way we go.:

It does have the thrust of a new photograph and if it

is presented in the right light so it does not appear we

have bought the umbrella man theory, it might indicate the

committee's desire to be thorough and follow up all leads.

Otherwise, we could be accused of not following up an obvious

step.

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Mr. Devine.

Must he be identified with the umbrella?

Mrs. Burke.

We could say this was

a man whose photo-

graph we have and we have not been able to identify him and

if anybody knows him, will they please write us.

Mr. McKinney. Are there any modern photography

techniques that will upgrade those pictures?

Mrs. Burke. No.

This

is about the size of a pinhead

in an eight by ten. It has already been enlarged and en-

hanced and the grain is

caused by the lack of information.

There is no information there. If you saw the original

8 by 10, this is maybe just a one-inch -- the umbrella man

may be one inch by one inch and the photograph is eight by

ten.

Mr. Dodd. If you use anything like that, you are going

to get confusion over which one you are talking about.

Mr.Stokes. Time-Life has never printed this picture?

It is just something that was in their files?

Mr. Blakey. Yes.

Mr. Stokes. How do you establish the fact, Mickyi

that it was a photograph taken after?

Mr. Goldsmith.

If you saw the rest of the picture,

you would see in the background people running around, up

the grassy knoll. There was a series of seven photographs.

This is one of the seven.

You can see people running in

the

background. It is just mass confusion. The photographs before

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the assassination, people are standing there watching.

MI. Devine.

How many seconds per frame would you

estimate?

Mr. Goldsmith. I couldn't say that.

Mr. Devine. Each frame is supposed to be in a second

segment. Is this just a straight photo and not part of a

motion picture?

Mr. Goldsmith.

That is right.

Mr. Stokes.

What does Zapruder show the umbrella man

doing?

Mr. Goldsmith. YOu can only see the umbrella. You can

see it opening up, being raised, lowered, raised again,

simultaneous with the shooting.

When Caputo pans in you see the umbrella go up and

down but you then continue watching the President and you lose

the umbrella.

Mr. Stokes.

What is the proximity of the umbrella man

to the President's car?

Mr. Goldsmith. He is standing on the edge of the curb.

I don't think he shot the

President.

Mr. Stokes. We have this man sitting down while you

say people are running around all behind him with the

President having just been shot. He is raising his umbrella

and then calmly sits

down?

Mr. Goldsmith. He was raising and lowering the umbrella

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and flasing it again. Then you lose the umbrella and you can

see the President.

Iwe have photographs taken by other people immediately

after the shooting. Everyone in the plaza is facing the

knoll, running in that direction, and the umbrella man and

his friend are the only two people standing facing the

complete opposite direction and then the umbrella man is

sitting down, which no one else is doing. That is why the

critics have focused on him so much, though they have never

seen this particular photograph.

Chairman.

Ma, Stokes. Mr. Devine has offered a very good suggestion.

Mrs. Burke. Could I suggest a resolution that would

authorize the Chairman, in his discretion, to approve the

press release, consistent with the dignity of the committee,

not involving the committee in an umbrella theory and consist-

ent with Time-Life's permits.

Mr. McKinney. I would so move.

Chairman

"He stokes.. You have heard the resolution. Do you.

want a record vote?

Mr. Blakey. I don't think that is necessary.

There are a couple of matters of information you should

be aware of.

The committee is going into court on Monday in Memphis

to examine the records of a hospital dealing with

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There are two other matters I would bring to your atten-

tion. One is an outstanding issue. Former President Ford

a member of the Warren Commission. Some time in the

next thiD to stay days he probably ought to be talked

to and I would solicit your advice on the way in which that

occurs.

If he is in town for another purpose, it might be

appropriate to have an executive session in which he could

come in and talk about the Warren Commissionand his role on

it.

If he is going to be in Colorado for any period of

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time, it might be appropriate for three members of the

committee to go out and see him. I would suppose that prior

to contacting him in a formal sense, it might be appropriate

for the chairman to call him and outline for him the general

areas of our interest and concern.

Most of the other principal figures in the Warren

Commission and cabinet who we have talked to, of all of them,

obviously President Ford presents a special problem.

Mr. Devine. I know he has accepted an engagement at the

Danny Thomas Hospital out there.

I could in quire and find out when he will be in the

Washington area.

Mrs. Burke. Given our financial situation, if he is

here, it would be preferred if we could do it here.

Mr. Devine. He will be glad to do this without

publicity because if the word gets out we are going to question

him, it would be difficult. Perhaps he could be met somewhere

off the Hill.

Mrs. Burke. I am sure that could be arranged.

Mr. Dodd. This doesn't relate directly to President

Ford, but are we going to bother with inhabitants of the

car --

Mrs. Burke. We have talked to Governor Connally.

We have not talked to Mrs. Connally.

Mr. Dodd. Are we going to pursue that in the committee?

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Mrs. Burke. It is likely Governor Connally might be a

witness in the hearings. We didn't feel it was necessary

to present him to you in executive session.

Mr. Dodd. We will be apprised of what he will be

saying.

Mr. Blakey. Absolutely.

Mr. Dodd. There is no reason to call Mrs. Kennedy, I

presume?

Mr. Blakey. I hadn't thought about it. I have not

talked to the former First Lady.

Mr. Devine. I can anticipate a

from President Ford, what do you want to talk about?

Mrs. Burke. If you are going to make that phone call

what we should give you before hand is a briefing memorandum

where we outline for you the various areas. Frankly, I think

the committee probably has a duty to, in addition to going

over how it was formed, and the pressures under which it

worked, airing what came out of the release of the FBI

document. That is, had Congressman Ford served as an

information conduit for the FBI from the Warren Commission.

There are memoranda written by de Loach indicating that is

the case. I am aware that the newspapers or, I think it is

CBS, has talked to President Ford about that

and he has an

explanation for it. I do not think that interview has been

aired.

I believe it was NBC, where Carl Stern talked to him.

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we will be able to give you a memorandum.

Do I sense a consensus on the part of the committee

that is the way we should proceed?

Mr. Devine. It doesn't make any difference to me.

However you want to do it.

Mr. Stokes. It would appear that then is the way we

should proceed.

Mr. Blakey. there is one other item I would bring

up at this time before I suggest we go into the briefing and

that is if the committee wants to discuss the memorandum that

I circulated to you with the suggested date for the King

hearings, the Kennedy hearings, and the King hearings again

in the public meetings -- I think, Mr. Edgar, you wanted to

speak to that.

Mr. Edgar. I have a couple of questions, or one specific

one that I need to raise and that is, Floyd Fithian and I

have been fairly active in the Kingone and we have tough

elections and we may be counting fifty votes or one hundred

votes at four o'clock in the morning. I notice in the

schedule the day after the election we are scheduled to be

heard at nine o'clock for a public session. I think that is

inappropriate.

Mr. Mckinney. Let's call it impossible.

Mr. Edgar. I would rather come on a Saturday or make

one of them nine to twelve or nine to five to make up for the

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loss of hours.

The Wednesday after election doesn't seem to

be a good day for any of us.

Mr. Blakey. Would Thursday after election?

Mr. Edgar. I think I could probably make it by

Thursday if I am not packing.

I would urge not to use wednesday.

Mr. McKinney.

the consensus is unanimous that you are

right.

Mr. Stokes. Is there anything further?

Mr. Dodd. I would like to use a few minutes to discuss

his. I have discussed this in the past and I have mentioned

it to a few people on the floor over the last couple of days

about the scheduling itself. We are looking at the week

in August and then the full month of September. I know,

Bob, you have expressed the feeling that it would be almost

impossible to conduct public hearings and be through by the

31st of December. I would like to raise for purposes of dis-

cussion here, whether or not we want to proceed with this

intensive public session in September.

Two, whether or not it is possible to conduct more

shifts on part or all of this until November, December and

write up the report simultaneously, if that is possible.

Mrs. Burke. Let

me out line the strategy involved in

setting this up. We are obviously dealing with problems.

If you push it in one place, it will push out in another

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direction. I think the first two things that have to be

said is that the committee has to begin its public hearings

before the end of September on both King and Kennedy because

we will have to come up in September for additional money to

go through December.

While I am certainly not an expert in politics, having

sat through the hearings and the floor debate on our money

bill the last time, it is difficult for me to believe that the

floor would give this committee more money unless it had

started its hearings.

I think preferably we should finish our hearings as an

integral presentation on both sides. It is just not possible

to do that before September.

In addition, the King hearings would have a special

problem with the appearance of James Earl Ray. We can

anticipate that he will present new material of some kind and

therefore we probably ought to get him out of the way in

August and then finish up the King hearings in November or

we will have the opportunity in September and October to run

down anything he says

is new.

If we don't begin in a substantial way demonstrating

our competency, our professionalism and our serious dedication

prior to the votes in September, I doubt that the Congress

would finance it. This means, in my judgment, we would have

to begin in August and September. Then I think in September

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we should finish Kennedy as a whole, so that people can watch

it as a whole and not have it broken up.

Mr. Dodd.

May we go off the record, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. Stokes. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Stokes. Back on the record.

Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, I have no further business

to bring before the committee.

Mr. Stokes. There being no further business before the

committee, the committee meeting is adjourned subject to the

call of the Chair.

(Whereupon, at 11:30 a.m., the committee adjourned, to

reconvene at the call of the Chair.)

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