NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPT, REEL #3.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 28/7/65 00:00
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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104-10210-10036 *

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: 10810210-10036

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TRÀN SCRIPT

NOSENKO LETIRROCEIION

REEL #3

98 N1/

1965

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NO DOCUMENTS MAY BE COPIED OR REMOVED FROM THIS FILE

APPROVED FOR LIEUZASE 1992

CLA NISTONCAL CAULSW RIO HONE

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Reel #3

28 July 1365

TRANSLATIO:

A. How are things today:

B. ( Concerning Miat.)

A. In general; i adition; nood.

B. Taat kind of 500d nood can I be in.

I have been sitting here 401 days - that is, l6 ponths; one year

plus four sonths of a second year.

(2G)

A. Is it a secret or not, how you are counting.

Thy do jou think it has been sol; thy do you thin' that you are not

mistaken.

B. No, It is no secret; no, no, absolutely.

You understand; It already, so to speak, has been developed, as 15

said, I have acquired sone ind of prison experience:

The habit of counting, etc., has been developed, and it has changed.

well, you understand, if I had countes fron the very beginalag, day by

day, and each day, I would have becone confused, but having come to a

definite date, you throw out this date, but here you know: exactly a

year has been conpleted, let us say, the third of April conpletes a

year exactly.

A. I am judging by nyself; I would have been lost.

such a situation, I think; I would not know how to calculate accurately.

APPROVED FOR RILEASE LI

CLA HISTORICAL RUW PROGRAN

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ordebate 8d-214: 909y6ire does d

wal?

Is possible to check.

A. But that did you have in mind when you said "prison experience", that

you had....

B. I had in mind that....

...At sone tine had prison experionce:

B. Never in ny liie, with the exception of the tine I was in the guard

house.

I have in mind that I... have doveloped….. prison experience, therefor

I....

((XG)) ((A and B speal at the sane time))

A.

...A long tine is necessary to develop and....

B. This is not long.

What do you nean:

It has been a great length o. time.

A. There are people who sit in prison 10, 15, 20, 25 years, and even their

whole life; then, I understand, one will gain prison resence;

develops; a person learns sone other... but for you it has been only

a little nore than a year.

B. One can serve time in different ways, one can serve time in different

ways.

You know, (XG) you yourself raised this question.

One can do tine in different vays.

I understand it thus: a person is doing time; he knows why; let us say

a criminal, he has killed soncone, or he h95g

she ha

robbed a person, he has raped someone; he knows way he la doing time.

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Alright, a polltical offender, Be know my de is coIle rene

why he is doins tize, and he has been given a sentence of 31

3 or 1 years, he counts off the tize.

Maile I do not inor my I am doing tine, absolutely; vaen on the basis

of suspicion alone, wen precisely only in uy position, a person vio

has lost absolutely, absolutely everything; I absolutely have nothing,

and I do not have anyone, neither friends nor, roll, I absolutely u

alone, quite alone.

There an I -= finished foul traitor, the most foul, ho certainly

already been sentenced to death; her I sit.

A. That are you thinking - that the hangman's rope has been salting for

you for a long tine?

B. I do not doubt this; of this, I have no doubt.

A." Do you still think that... you will not flud an ansver to

the question:

"Why are you here":

B. Because they do not belleve me.

It is the only reason.

A. If the question stands thus, I thin' that me might continue our

conversation; perhaps, finally, anyway, ne will find, as I said in our

last meeting, ve will find a comnon language.

Perhaps you will give me supporting information (podtverzhdeniye),

sonething other than that you said earlier.

The last time we began to speal of your arrival in Moscow im1952, nen

you said that you had arrived there fron the Baltic.

I think that perhaps we will go back a little bit and throw some light

on one more question.

I wanted to ask you ~ before this, how many years were you in the

Komsomol:

B. From 1943 to 1954.

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During this period wallo you vere in the sonsonol, did you reced

Consonol punisients.

B. For the shole period in the jonsonol, I had only one purishaent,

received in the KGB in 1954 - a severe reprimand and varning.

A. How sas this written up.

Por mhat was it fiven.

B. You see how it vas....

A. lie do not necd an explanation; I know wat you said carller....

"B. In the konsonol, no... I just want to say one thing - tat

the konsomol

did not so into detail.

Apparently, such instructions had been given the konsono

For using & cover document, an operational cover document, for

personal purposes....

A. For the use of....

B. Operational documents for personal purposes.

A. ...Operational documents br personal purposes.

B. Yes.

A. And nothing more was said.

B. No.

A. And you renember this wording exactly:

B. Yes absolutely.

And the same wording was used when an administrative punishment was

SECTEF

1$00 сет. 49:6

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Nothing was said to me.

Only orally, several tincs at nectin's, te fore roninded of

faults", "noral faults".

A. Why did the Xonsonol not work it so - "for immoral conduct and for

moral faults"....

B. Likewise, there ms no such worling in the achinistrative decree;

Instead, it said simply for the use of an operational document or dover

docunent... Adninistrative punishnent of 15 days arrest tas given ne by

FEDOTOV •

Exactly the sane kind of fording tas used in the Kunsomol.

And Konsonol did not deal with.... the idea is that the Konsonol must

2191934

taiic this up with ne in detail... how this cone about. Mo.

.. what...

but they did not take this up.

A. Vell, if you vere a Konsonol nember fron 1933 to 1951....

B. Since 1913...

A. From 1943 to 1954... do you remember the month in which you became a

member?

B. I entered the Konsonol in 1913; I do not renember the month; I do not

renember.

It was in 1943 in Baku in the preparatory school, yes.

....=

A. You do not renenber the month:

B. I do not remember.

A. Was it 1n winter, summer, spring, or fall:

B. No, I do not renember, I do not remember, I

I an afraid to say.

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Bay:

•I do not romenber, I renember cactly that it vas in 1943.

A. And then did you leave the Konsosol.

In what year.

B. I left the Konsonol at the end of 1951.

I had to lcave; you understand - you can be in the lionsonol unty ye"

are 27 yeard old, no older, if you are not elicted to a nigh elective

post in the konsonol.

A.

So.

B. Just a ninute.

I received a double punishnent.

I ras Secretary of a Konsenol organization, and I ras relleved.

Hell, this was not a punishnent.

A. There vere you a Konsonol Secretary.

B. In the Second Chief Directorate (glavka), In the Second Chief Directorate

A. Of the entire Second Chief Directorate:

B. Yes.

There were only 13 or 15 Konsonol nembers, together with the typists.

..+-

•. From what time vere you ((secretary)) there.

B. From 1943..

Directorate.

1953; to my thinking, in 1953, at the end of 1953, I was

elected Secretary of the Party organization of the Second Chief

A. "ell, was this the Party ((organization)) or the Konsonol. ((organization.

«SEORET

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A. You say that this was approxinately at the end of 1953

B. The rcason I say approxinately is because usually the clcctions are

held at the end of the yoar . Septenber, October, August....

A. That served as the basis for clecting you Secretary

You had just begun vorking there.

B. Vell, I began vorking in sarch.

I think, you see why - the konsonol organication was vory small - in

the main there vere only 1 or j fron among the oprational esployees;

the rest vere not operational but support poople - secretaries,

typists.

A. Approxinately how nany komsonol verbers vere there

Second Chief Directorate.

B. Ahout 15 people there.

A. But you must....

B. Well, the VOD is not included here; I have in mind that surveillance

does not enter in here . in this Konsonol organization.

A. How do you say it - UODK:

B. UODK • Directorat for the Protection of the Diplonatic Corps.

Earlier 1t vas called... this is surveillance over foreigners.

A. Earlier it vas called what, and what is it now.

B. And now this VODi has been combined with the Seventh

A.

What tas the department of the Second Chief Directorate called which

SEGNET

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14-000062,2

B. Tich foreigners.

1. Servicing all foreigners.

B. The First Departient, the Second Departent, the Third Departnent.

1, No, I have in mint, fron the achinistrative point of view, not thes

operational point of view.

B. Oh... this ras HID UPD! BYROBIN, forserly BYRODIN; now it is called

UPD::.

Tais is HID.

A. IVUROBIN, and that do you say 1t now is called?

B. UPDI.

A. UPDi - that does It sean.

B. Directorate for Servicing the Diplomatic Corps.

There, the calef Is MIUKOV, the forner ambassador to Indonesia.

There was alvays an enployee in charge.

There ras always one enployee in charge under UPDK cove

Second Chief Directorate.

A. Nell, then, 11 ve put everything into place, when you began to work in

the Second Chief Directorate, It was called UODK.

B. VODK . this was the Directorate for the Protection of the Diplomatie

Corps.

This is surveillance over foreigners, headed by General BOYKOV.

He was a colonel at the time, but soon after

becane a general.

lat

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B. In appro: inately 107', approxinately 1053; it ras given over to the

Seventh Dircctorate.

A. Do you know appro:luately men the VOD ms organized

B. I know that it ras the forner Departnent 2-1 or 2-I -I io not

remenber exactly; I do not renchler - headed by Colonel KorarskIy.

There vas such a Colonel KORETS!.IY and there were the Departents 2-7,

2-I, 2zh in the Second Chief Directorate, mich vere responsible for

surveillance over foreicuers.

It was before ny tine.

then I cane in, it was lodi, and it was headed by DOXiO

A. And then did they organize BYROBIN:

B. EUROBIN also ras before I cane in.

BYUROBIN - It was the bureau for servicing foreigners.

But It was subordinate to the linistry of Foreign Afiairs, and It is

still subordinate to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but it is not

BYUROBIN - it is the UPDK.

A. Practically speaking, there are now two organizations which

are respOn

sible for foreigners... servicing then.

B. What two organizations.

1327

A. "ell, you said - the UODK, mich combined with the Seventh Directorate.

B. Well, it is not for servicing; the UODK is for surveillance of

foreigners.

A. Well, the nane Itself!

- Chara

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Corps; abbreviated, it sas called DOD

Protection of the Diploatic Corps..

the Director

A. And parallel with this, there is the UPDK:

B. Just a ninute, just a ninute; you are sonerhat confused.

In 1053 - BYROBLY - this is the Directorate for the Serveino

Diplonatic Corps.

You are absolutely right. .

And this bolongs to MID, the linistry of Foreign Affairs.

But the VODK - that is the KGB.

This is the sucillance over foreigners.

Now it does not exist, since this work has been turned over entirely

with all of the cquipaent, all of the surveillance personnel, chiefs

all have been turned over to the Seventh Directorate.

Because the Seventh Directorate - for what sas iti

Only the investigative personnel and the surveillance of Soviet citizens;

that is all.

A. And, then, iron 1953, the JOD; was incorporated in the Seventh

Directorate:

B. Then, the Seventh Directorate is in charge of surveillance now.

Moreover, two years later, fron 1953, or approxinately in 1960, the

Seventh Directorate gave all of its investigative personnel, the in

ativo personnel -- earlier, it ras their nain vork -- gave them to tae

'KGB Directorate for Moscow City and Moscow Oblast anar.

And now they are not responsible for investigative work as such.

You know, it is requested that they check a citizen's way of life, collec

references and so forth and so forth.

If this vork was carried out earlier, the entire work, by the Seventh

Directorate - this is a huge apparatus - then, it was turned over,

the entire work, to the Directorate for Hoscow Oblast

A. Then, on the day you leit lloscow - If I understand you correctly -

SECRET

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VITEC

3. The Sevents Dircctorate.

A. And parallel to this, there cristed the UPDk.

No.

This is not the "GB, this is the 'lID.

The UPDi • this is the Directorate for Servicing the Diplonatic Corp

That are the tasks of this UPDA.

The Embassy, any embassy wishing... getting workers, cooks, charwonen,

chauffcurs - these people rere sotten through the UPDK.

Tickets - railvay, theater, etc. - were ordered through the UPD!.

Everything sas done through the UPDi.

This directorate vortis entirely for the embassics, all the embassies -

both the so-called denocratic ones, such as Czechoslgua

Jungary

nd

others, of the lestern countries.

All the embassies.

Repairs vere nade - electrical, plunbing - everything was done through

the UPDK.

This directorate . a 'ID directorate - ras established for the

servicing of the diplonatic corps.

A. Were there many Second Chief Directorate employees with UPDK.

B. In the UPD., there was one staff employee there

for many years, he fas

BYUROBIN - FILITOY.

FILATOV vas in charge for many years, approximately, approximately.

When did FILATOV go on pension:

• He went on pension approxinately... (2-3G) in 1961.

And they put there Mi:bail Mikhalovich SUISKOY, who, as of January

1964, was in the UPdk.

He has an office in the UPDR.

True, 11 FILITOY vas chief of a directorate..

sonne

Department of the Uilk... then stlskoY... they promoted him to deputy

chief of the directorate.

ChET

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And SUuSKOY is fron the IGB; he 1s the deputy.

i. Is far as I uncerstand you, the Dircetorate for the Affairs of the

Diplonatic Corps is in the Ministr; of Foreign Affairs and there is a

single operational employce...

B. Staff man.

A.

...of the Second Chief Directorate.

B. It la unother thing that there are iellous ((KG3)) sho have retired,

have retired and vere looking for vor:....

I know that (IG) norled there for scicral months...

A. Vell, we will not....

B. SURIANOV worked there for several nonths.

A. Approxinately, mat is the total staif of this UPDi, the total staff.

B. ((Pause)) They occupled... in 1962-1963, they nosed to another place;

they occupled during all of the years - as far as I know - fron 1953

to 1962 a three-story building on Stanislavskly Street, the entrance

from Herzen Street, and foreigners went there.

How many people could de housed there.

There was a Personnel Section..

A. Well, approxinately, bor nany

B. I am afraid to say.

A. Fell, two hundred, three hundred

B. Not more, not more.

SECRE

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77-44

3. Just a minute; here is an interesting thing; just a ainute.

Let us assune that all of the roriers in the UPDi! In the entire

building amount to 200 - 150:00.

Ics.

But not all of the vorters - the Soriet citisens tho tori in all of

the cabassics . are housed in the UPD...

They rork at the classies as chauffeus, zardeners, chartosen, coolis.

But they are UPD! workers.

A. Well, I un asking how nany in all, includias....

B. On, with these.

This I do not 'non.

A. Hell, how nany.

Two thousand, three throusand.

B. I do not linow.

A. Fell, 1f ve consider that there are 70 embassies in iloscon..."

B. 70 embassies:

Yell....

A. Well, how many will the UPDI have, approximately:

B. Well, the American Embassy, the largest Embassy, has a hundred or

hundred trenty Soviet citizens working there.

The rest of the embassies are snall, and they have few people.

I vould say that there are approximately 1,000 people working:

A.

Well, I procced from he following : if you worled there for such a

Jong time in the Second Chief Directorate, anda

su ta close contact 6

the basis of Information fros the Seventh Directorate and, furthernore,

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Sevent: Directorato I take it that you had frequent contact

botis those and tiose with the people of the Scienti Dircetore

the Dircetorate for the iffairs of tic Diplomatic Corps - becasse

without then you could not taic a stop.

B. Right, right.

A. Therofore, my question is - and I thine there is a basis for se

to

'304.

a's - well; the total staff of the UPDi, the nuncrical. complescat.

I an not as: in, for the cinct number; one can nate an estimate.

E. ily estinato is 1,000 employees, Soviet citirens vor:ing in the enbass

approximately.

A. Approsinately a thousand.

B. Soviet citizens so are corking in the embassies.

A. Does this also include all of those on the stalf of the UPDK in the

directorate, and those mhich..

B. No, I an taking into account those to are ((on staff)) in the direc-

torate.

There are 150 people on the staff and 1,000 in the embassies

A. A thousand in the embassies.

Well, te will say there are appro:imately 1,200.

B. Yes, yes, approzinately.

A. Approximately.

Well, we will drop this question for the time being.

B. "ell, this figure could be questioned . It is not exact.

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Ta-arnttrTw

B. It is not possible.

A. Tie will return to the Initial thene of our conversation - about the

ko-sonol.

As jou said, you were in the toasonol iron 1313 until 1051; you

entered,

and sonethere In 1054....

B. I left the konsonol for reason of age.

A. For reason of age.

And, for sone time, you vere the Secrotary of the tonsonol orranizatto

What vas the Konsonol organization called

That was it called

B. Konsonol Organization No. 2.

A. Konsonol Organization....

B. Well, of Collective No. 2.

A. Collective No. 2.

Well, what did you have a Committee:

B. Te had no Connittee; it ras a snall organization.

A. Nell, what was it called!

B. Konsonol organization.

A. And sothiag....

B.

There was only a Secretary, a small bureau o

A. Te will return to 1952,

with regard to the Konsomol.

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14-90004-1000ette3in . .

You asilyed In doscow as you sale on the falfie

and then you began working in the RGB - In the MVD, as 1t

called - in liarch 1953.

There were you enrolled in the komsomol at that tine.

B. Up to ?larch.

A. During the tine that you left the baltic area and then you began

vorking.....

B. Vhere:

I continued to be enrolled in the Baltic area.

At Sovets's.

A. And then you left theie for a period of time you were not taion off

the list:

B. No, of course not.

A. There did you pay your dues.

B. I was not paying dues anywhere.

I paid the dues for the several nonths I did not pay as soon as I

started vorking.

I paid for January, February, for liarch.

A. And there did you pay for December.

...inia...

.....

B. Well, I left Sovetsk in December.

A. When did you leave in December.

B. At the end of December.

Around New Year's.

At the very end of December.

SEGN

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P. Nell, then you set paid -around the 22nd or 23rd of the ronth!

À. Thon for Deccaber you paid there.

B. I paid.

1. And wach you not into the KGs.

Then you paid at one tuc.

B. I paid for innuary, Ichruary and March.

A. Ten you came into the KG3 - tell me, bricily, the

whole peccedu

your lionsonol business.

Then did you first visit the konsonol Committee in the GP, to be re-

enrolled:

B. I do not renember.

I an afraid to say, I am afraid to say.

Of course, it was about the tine I began voring.

I asked about the komsonol organization.

I spoke with the Secretary of the Koasonol organization and introduced

myself.

A. That Secretary.

B. In the Second Directorate, but I do not renember who he vason

A. You replaced hin in this position:

B. Yes, yes.

A. "ell, tho was the Secretary.

After all, you took his place and I think you should renember his nane...

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1. He sust have continued tortin; in the Second Chiel Directora

:.B. Jos, he entered the party; he ras accopted as a candidate party member.

but tho.

One of the fellows.

A. Very vell, you net his....

B. I renenber to too: over fron se, but I do not renenber fros won I

too!: over.

1. Very voll, you cane to see hia, and you vere accepted into the licker

By the way, men you spole with Slummyakov, did he spea: with you about

belonging to the party.

B. I do not renember.

of course, he must have asled.

Of course, he asked.

A. Figure out the age at mich you were when you cane to floson and began

to work in the KGB.

B. Trenty-five.

A. Can you be a bit nore precise:

B. I had passed my trenty-fifth birtaday at the end of 1952.

A. In 1952.

B. In October, October 30.

Then here - November, December, January, Februarya and the beginnl

21320K

of March - I was 4} months past my twenty-t

lith birthday.

SEGRET

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## Page 20

citickitt +15 040406566654stbetsmittittediatidellate 2300199999

there 01 jearsald

B. Until they are 27.

A. Fron that date, verc nembers allowed to renain members until they vere

27:

B. This is indicated in the Regulations; I do not know from what time.

It is indicated in the Regulations, that one can remain a Konsonol.

until 27 ycars of age.

A. What Regulations establish this.

B. The lonsonol Regulations.

Nice? did

A. Of what year.

B. I do not remember.

It's established in the Konsonal Regulations.

A. Nell, I think that 1l you were a Secretary of a Konsonol organization,

you should remember accurately whether it was the Regulations of 1953

or 1951 - I will not insist on the

year it changed - Konsonol members

could renain in until they were

• 26.

в. .27.

A. The Regulations now state that you can remain until you are-27, but,"

at that tine....

.B. No, no, no; that cannot be.

When the question about my Komsomol reprimand arose whether to

remove it - when they removed me as a Konsomol Secretary..: in 195%, I

was not yet 27.

Then, in October, or in the beginning of October - that is, when I

SECRET

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A. Of course, I cannot accopt snat you are explaining to se now

It does not fit.

Because the new Regulations... It is true that Konsonol yenbers say

rcnain as Konsozol nembers until they are 27....

B. That is the way it was in 195%....

A.

...But in 1933, 1954,

((XG; A and I speak at the sane tine))

Until the ago of 26....

B. It was the same tay in 1954 - 27 years of age.

A. I am not going to bring you the Regulations and show them to you.

B. You do not have to.

Because, otherwise, I would not have been able to get out of that

difficult situation.

A. Furthernore, you said that you got out of the Komsonol because of age

and - correction with the punishment in 1954; you got out at the end

of the year.

B.

So.

A.. There is no reason to talk about the age, 27; It already was 26 ((in

the Regulations))

B.

27.

In October of 1954, I was 27 years old.

A. Well, there are members tho remain after they are 27.

SEGRET

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## Page 22

frenched thergetinetober

It is not half a year,. If you please.

A. After your talk with the Secretary of the kossomol organization

wnose nane you do not renenber - of course, it is difficult for no to

believe that you too:: up the dutles of Secretary of the jonsonol

organication and became the Secretary for the Second Chief Directar

and you cannot rezcuber who he sas.

B. I do not renember.

A. I presume that, if they elected you secretary of the organiration,

1:12 t

you vere an active Momsonol member.

apparently, you must have had good qualifications, since you had worked

there for a short tiue; and I thin' you should know fion raos you too:

over.

Let us talk logically.

B. Now, you see, you yourself woried in KGB - but, even if not in the

KGB, but just in the Soviet Urion - you susgest logically discussing

this, but you tell me such a strange thing.

You know how things are run.

This is not ((a big)) committee.

What kind of files are there.

You keep a list of the members - these 20 poor soul

enrollment documents.

When they pay the dues, you put down their nanes and Konsonol card

numbers.

Then you take this list and the money to the komsomol organization.

what kind of files are

there:

None at all.

A work plan, for exanple, for a month - what measures are taken,

what meetings and discussions are held on such and such & theme.

That is all.

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## Page 23

B. That files are there:

À. No natter that files there aight have been - even if you had only a .

flie box or th shcets of paper, you nevertheless became the Secretary.

01 a Konsouol organization.

B. Right, right.

1. Furthermore, before you can become the Secretary for the konsonol

orcanivation of the Second Chiof Directorate, before they sive you

complete authority, what precedes this

B. This is not a poverful organization.

I told you it consists of secretaries and typists.

There were in all two, three - four operational beate

were technical support personnel.

A. And you were the Secretary of the komsonol organization, so

B. Yes.

A. It is not just that a man takes a file box containing the files and

that is all - that precedes this, so that you are, and have the

authority, of a Secretary of a Xomsomol organization.

B. ((Pause)) You are right about what you have in mindy, but the organiza-

tion of a huge plant or of a large collective....

•A. Let us not talk about à plant or another big organization; ve are

talking now about the Second Chief Directorate, the Konsomol organiza-

tion of the KGB.

. Bo

I am telling you the way it was.

---

## Page 24

organization.

You said that you too' over the files.

that preceded this event and your beconing a real Secretary of a.

Konsonol organication.

•B. To become a real one, I do not know, but I know low I became one

A. The way you put it -- you simply took over the files, and that was all

If you were the Secretary of a konsonol orranization, you must know.

This is even

printed in the Regulations - what the procedure is.

First of all, there was a report and elections meeting; the old

Secretary delivered the report; then a representative of the KGBa

Konsonol Connittee attended the meeting; when the report had been

delivered, it was pronounced that the work had been satisfactory.

A. Just a minute; why must I ask you ten times before you begin answering

ne:

B. Now, really, are such as neetings so important.

A. I want to find out how you became a Secretary.

B. If you please, If you please... the Secretary delivered the report

for example, that eight meetings vere held during the tenure.

There was an evaluation of the work.

Then, the KGB Konsonol Committee representative speaks they already

had decided that there would be a proposal by the Konsomol Committee

to put Conrade ((B's surnane)) up as a candidate for Secretary.

And that is all.

A. Who ras the Komsomol Committee representative?

B. I also do not remember.

---

## Page 25

A-i need

It is quite difficult for me to believe that the Secreta

Komsonol organization of the Second Calef Directorate at that tine

does not remember fron whos he too: over and ll'ewise does not know

the nase of the nan tho worked in the iGe tonsonol connittee.

B. Well, I do not romember mio ras there.

I knew several poople tho had contact with the Second Chief Directorate.

Harat SOKOLOV and KALINId, Anatoliy.

Who was there.

Perhaps one of them or someone else; I do not remember.

A. Hell, if it was jarat, then it vas Marat.

B. I do not remember.

It was these two nen who maintained contact with;

both of them.

te,

A. Hell, what, after the results of the election meeting.

You were elccted: that then.

B. He then elected a bureau of three people for our Komsonol organization.

A. That else:

Who were the members of the bureau.

B. I do not renenber; a girl, the typist, a secretary - I do not remenber.

A. What - three, with you, or were there four.

B. Three, with me, because this was a very small Konsonol organization.

A. Wat else:

B. The meeting ended after this.

On the following day, we got together, made a tentative, gors plan -

---

## Page 26

14-00000

A.

Hell, how were you personally elected Secretary.

B. "ell, right there at the komsonol ncetini; you see, at that time...

liny an I telling you about a large konsonol organization:

The larre organizations elect a bureau; then the bureau gets together

andalcets a Sccretary.

But this was a snall organisation - 12-15 persors.

A. You said that there was a bureau composed of three people.

B. Well, In all; with me included.

A. Along with you.

well, did they elect a bureau, or did they elect you alone

B. They elected three of us, but they immediately elected ne Secretary.

You understand - this was an unusual nethod, because this was a small

Konsonol organization.

I have said that this is not the way it really happens in large

Komsonol organizations, or in the Party organizations, were first a

bureau is elected, and then the bureau on the following day gets

together to select and elect a Secretary.

A. Nell, as a former Secretary, tell me - on the basis

Regulators,

how are the elections carried out in a Konsomol organizations consisting

of 15 people.

You said there were approximately 15 people; how are the elections

carrled out:

Who is elected, and how is he elected:

B. ((Pause)) I do not remember; mo, how, how the elections are held

I do not renember anything.

A. Is it logical or not, as a Secretary who knows the procedures well

it winnine on ...

---

## Page 27

((Pause)) Is it so difficult:

3. I do nof remember, I do not remember.

i. Well, you know it is very casy to say that you do not renember.

B. Nell, I rcally. do not renember.

((XG; A and B speal: at the sane tine)) :

A. A person nho tas elected Sccretary nust know how he was elected.

B. They elected me at a neeting.

They elected two other nembers fron our Party ... loasonol organization.

A. Nell, who were they.

B. I do not remember; I think they were two girls, and both were typists.

A. You do not renember the names.

How were the elections held:

How actually were the three of you elected.

B. No; I lied to you . one was a typist and the second one was.

secretary of the Gernan Department -- Nina….. right!

A. Nell, that is not important; mhat is her surname? ar

B. Nina, Nina, Nina... I do not remember.

A. By the way, you mentloned the German Department; la 1953, who was the

Chief of the German Department of the Second Chief Directorate:

B.

I do not remember now; I wrote it down.

SECRE

---

## Page 28

"I know that you wrote it down.

B. ((Thinking aloud)) First Department, then GORBATATO; the Second

KONDrASHIN; the third... I do not reseaber.

A. And you are sure that in 1953 in the Second Chief Directorate, there, vas

a German Departnent, that a secretary of the German Department

clected to the bureau.

B. ((Pause) ) Yes.

Nell, it was not responsible for embassy work, but for Gernans to left

in the torritory... well, it vas the German Department, jor imigrant

organizations, and Ilkewise on a level with PERETUGOV's departuent

which handled the Sixtk... the Third - Gernans - but how else.

A. I will ask you again if you are sure that there

wa

nt.

B. Yes, the German Department ((speaks with uncertainty)) was there.

A. Thin's about it.

B. (XG) I do not remember.

I know that there vas a German Department.

A. I am asking li there vas a Gernan Departent in 1953,

sure of this.

You

at

B. I do not remenber; I do not remember.

A. Well, if you do not remember, then probably you do not remember very

well that the person

who was elected a member of the Konsonol organi-

zation bureau was not from the German Department.

B.

Well, she was from the Third Departient;

secretary in the Third Department.

- SEGRET

there

and" Is now a

---

## Page 29

1088 4

yuh.

B. and she was sorking there saon I tas in the ioaso.0l orcanization, che

ras a jonsonol nember.

A. If you do not Iconber victor there ras or vas not a Gorman Departsent,

how could a person fron the German Departnent have been elected:

B. Tue Gernan

Dopartnent, the Gernan Department.

A. Well, I will ast again - are jou sure there was a Gernan Department

B. ((Pruse)) I an not absolutely sure of anything; but I know it was?

Gernan Department fron wich this lina uns a nonber of the konsoner

organization of tha Second Calci Directorate, and she was elected to

the bureau.

A. I am asking for the third tine nother or not you are sure, wother

you know exactly or do not linow, vas there a German Departnent in 1953

or not.

B. There was a German Department in 1953; there was.

A. It there vas a German Department in 1933, were vere you at the time:

Because there was no German Department.

B. I was in the First Department.

A. How can you say there was a German Department when there was no such

Department in the Second Chief Directorate in 1953:

How can you say that.

B. ((Pause)) To my thinking, there was.

A. Tousee, I am not insisting that you make up something.

I an simply asking whether there was a department or not, whether you

---

## Page 30

B. To by thinkint, there ras a German Departzent, because Mina

secretary of the German Departient....

A.

A man so woried there in 1903, 1951, and to vorked there until 1901,

and uno sas a Secretary of the konsonol organization of the Second

Chi. f Directorate probably will now cxactly vacther thero was a

Gorman Departzent or not, and he sill not say "to ay thinsing" or

"probably".

He will only ansver precisely wether there ras or ras not one there..

B. Why do I tell it to you this vay - "to my thinking there vas" - and

do not tell you for sure:

Because I do not remenber enactly the name of the Chief of the Depart-

ment.

A. You cannot reneuber it because there was no such Department.

B.. ((Pause)) To ay thinking there vas.

I do not remember.

I w111 think, I will thin': (XG)

A. ((Pause)) Well, ve will return to the sane question - homere the

members of the bureau elected.

B. I do not renember; I do not renenber this.

A. Am I right in concluding that you were not a Secretary of the Komsomol

organization of the Second Chief Directorate:

B. (iAn incorrect conclusion: )

A. If the conclusion is not right, you

were an activero

you were elected Secretary.

once nem:

---

## Page 31

14-00000

ii.. i.

Mow a spear it the won

•..You see that the matter vas:

I do not renenber.

You can draw that conclusion on the basis of that.

I do not renember; I do not renenber.

A. Very well, lot us assume that the burcau vas clected - three people;

you and two girls.

Let us assume that.

What else.

((Pause) ) What clse:

I already have nentioned trice in the form of a leading question

what time does a person becone

a Secretary in a sonsonol ortanizatiel

B. At that tine:

Well, the burcau is elected.... In large organications...

A. We are talking about the organization of the Second Chief Directorate,

where there were approximately 15 Konsonol members.

Do not tell me about big organizations,

because I know about them very

well - about both the large ones and the small ones.

I am talking only about the one in which you were.

B. I answered you.

A. Because I do not want to talk about large ones, etc., because in doing

so, we will get to the raykon and the Komsomol CC.*

2021

When we have time, we will talk about this.

Right now, I rant to know about the Second Chief Directorate, in which

you were & Secretary, where there were approximately 15 people, where

a bureau of three people was elected, although you do not renenber the

names of two.

What else:

How does an elected Secretary become a Secretary:

What else follows:

GRET

---

## Page 32

14-00006..

B. Tuere is a sectin: of this burenu Innediately after the Konsonol.

necting, a secting of this burcau.

A.

That does this burcau do

D. This bureau elcots the Secretary.

Oh, my God!

Well, wat do you vant

A. ((Pause)) This still is not all;

there is sorething else.

What is the Secretary supposed to linow

I want to find this out and know exactly; l1 you tll noremen perta

I will believe that you vere a Secretary.

If you do not tell ne, then you vere not, just botree

B. Why "between us":

A. Even I, for cxample... It as very, very interesting - and sad -

for me, of course, to hear you say that, at that time (fone could

renain in the Konsonol)) up to 27 years of age....

B. Up to 27 years of age; absolutely.

A. Now ((it 1s)) up to 27 years of age; the Regulations have been

amended - then, it was up to 26, and now, it is up to 27.

((XG; A and B speas at the same time))

B. I was up to 21 years of age.

A. If you were a Secretary, you must know.

B. In accordance with the Regulations, I was in the Komsonol up to 27 years

of age..

---

## Page 33

14-oq000. mies

....л.іі"нс:і"

B. No.

A. Not one digit:

B. The first was 19, and then... 19 and then... well, & 6-dizit number

A.

Well, I do not insist that you remenber this number, although you inow

that a konsonol nomber has to know his number just as a soldier knovs

his Iifle number.

Well, ve will assune that this natter too!: place long ago.

I do not insist that you know the number, althouth this number is

repeatedly asted for by the Secretary of the konsonol organization

B. I do not regeabor; I do not resember the number of easty sdentsescallo

and you asi: me about the komsool number, then I Tert in 1954.

A. II you do not remenber your Party card number, then ve will return

again to this, and I will pose a great question of whether or not you

were a Party nember.

That 1s another question.

B. I simply told you as an example that I do not even recall my Party

card number.

A. And I say that if you do not even remember the number of your party

card, I then raise the great question of whether you, were in the Party.

at all, or not.

B. You see what your approach is.

A. Because there can be no other.

How can I approach this question otherwise

Secretary, and he does not know how he assumes his duties:

- SEGRE

---

## Page 34

1200S0T TTOLd YOU BOW

• I told you how!

A. The most simple and cormon procedures.

At the beginning, you told me it ras siaply a jonsono! organization,

but then it was a bureau.

B. But there was only one Konsonol orcanization in the Second Directorate;

how can you not understand

A. If you vero the Secretary, you must know that there is a rator that

there is a cormittec, that there is a bureau, that there is a primary

Konsonol orcanization, and thore is a lower konsonol organization..

B. It is the only one in the Sccond Chief Directorate.

A. Fell, that ras yours.

Has it a rayion, a connittee, or a primary.

B. The prinary Konsonol organization of the Second Chief Directorate, and

there was no other.

A. Very vell, it sas a prinary organization.

Further, you told me that a bureau of three people was elected.

The bureau got together.

But how did the bureau elect you as Secretary.

You told me that at a meeting they elected you a Secretary and two

members of the bureau.

That is not the my it is done.

In no way.

If you were the Secretary, then you must know.

B. Yes, precisely.

I have told you, keeping in mind, the small

the Komsomol organization.

Now, Keeping in nind....

---

## Page 35

Directorate, there vere 15, 13, or Iû members or..

B. No, no, not in aby case.

thy so.

A. Well, let us have a nunbci - jou told ne that there vere appro::

15 nembers.

I willproced fros this - tiat there vere 1i senbers.

You told ao that they elected you Secrotary. at the consool neeting

along with tuo other menbers of the burcau.

That is not the may it is dons.

Il you were the Secretary, you nust "row and toll me the way it is

done and how it sappened.

Iven if this konsosol organi ation sover even voried, as

often

happened.

B. Do you want ne to sive the formalitics.

They fornalired it, they formalized it.

A representative of the lonsonol Comittee vas there; the bureau ras

formalized; it ras formalized on a piece of paper that a bureau had

electod ((B's surnane)) as Secretary of the Party organizatin.

A. Then why did you say that you vere elccted at a meeting of the

Konsonol organization to be the secretary, but thems

it and said that tro more nembers mere elected to the bureau at the

same meeting.

...

B. No, at the burcau ((meeting)) how else:

A. Then, you were elected Secretary at a meeting of the bureau.

B. ((Pause)) Yes; at a formal bureau neeting.

A. Formal or not; this is the protocol, witten down, and so forth.

---

## Page 36

A. ((In Englisi)) Alright, let us 50

on .

You still are not Secretary; at next

B. Tae Konsozol Connittee nust cosfirn ne as the Secretary of the organ

zation.

A. Tell, let us go to the konsonol Comultice

B. I do not roscaber, but after a day or to they confirned me as Secretary.

A. Alright, jou come to a session of the komsonol Committee

t=o... vell... for the mole iinistry of Internal Affairs.

a day

B. Yes.

A. Maat went on there:

B. I do not resember, I do not rezember.

They confired as a Secratary.

They spose with me, told me that to do.

A. How did they speak with you.

B. I do not resenber, I do not rezember.

A. This was the one time in your life.

• B. Way "one time":

I vas a secretary of a Konsonol organization in the Far East, in

Sovetskaya Gavan.

A. He are speaking now of 1953, the KGB, and the Second Chief Directorate.

You had been forking only a let months in tie KGB; you were a new man;

•ліст-сійн», водім саоі..:

Guarantee el redden fra,#

---

## Page 37

they showed their trust lp you; therl epted you fa the

they elected you Secretary of the in nol organiratio of th

Chief Directorate.

Hos, they sumon you to a session of the consonol Comittee of the lD.

Hos, tell no the procedure.

B. I do not remenber, I do not remember.

I absolutely do not renchber.

They talked sith ne.

A. What did they talk to you about.

E. I do not renember, I do not remenber, I do not renenber.

A. Do you renenber mio mas Secretary o! the jonsonol Committee:

B. I also do not renember.

I remenber those two fellows because they later soried in the Second

Chief Directorate - Marat SOKOLOV and Anatolly KALININ.

A. Very well, you come to the session of the Committee of the WVD - as

It was called at that tie - you come to the roon where the session

Is, or into the office of the Secretary of the Connittee, where 1t

meets.

Fell, do you renember tho was there:

What did they ask you.

B. Both of those joung fellows vere there — KALININ and soxorov.

I do not remember which one of them was present or if someone else

was present; this man stated how the Konsonol neeting of the Party

Organization No. 2 went.

They inforned....

A..

The Party or Konsonol organization:

B. The Konsonol organization; No. 2.

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## Page 38

14-00000. in its care to #1107649101

B. I do not reachber mhat they talied about.

A. We will return to the Month of arch.

You sald that you rent on duty in the KGB in the niddle of warch.

Toll how you fere placed on the rolls of the lonsonol, in the konsonol

organization of the lIVD.

B. I do not renenber.

I reported to the Scerotary of the consonol orcanization.

A. Mell, you appeared before the Secretary of the jonsonol orgasiration.

B. I was sent to the lousonol Conitice.

I said, so....

There they asked me for the so-called registration che

talon).

I told how it vas in my case.

nyy

A. That 1s this registration chec!:.

B. Well, then you are removed from the rolls in one konsonol organization..:

((Pause) )

A. You left the Baltic.

B. I was not renoved fron the rolls (2G) .

A.. Then, you cannot talk about a registration checis.

B.

No, there was none.

A. How, practically, you....

B. I showed my Konsonol Identifieation card.

SECRET

sit uioy."

---

## Page 39

B. Hell, they talied tith ne:

I do not renonber that they said.

Probably they asted ne how and then I tas accepted in the consool,

what kind of tonsonol assignuents I had ind • such questions.

A. Vell, very sell.

B. ? paid the dues.

They could have asked me thy I had not Inid the dues for January and

Fcbruary = because I had boen loft hanging; I as waiting for ther to

icecht me for work.

A. This vas already that - alrost three sonths!...

B. Yes.

1. ... That you had not paid the dues.

B. I lad not paid for two months.

A. January, February, Larch.

B. Hell, I paid for larch, when the time came to pay:

A. Then not for two nonths, but for three.

B. I paid

for three months.

A. But what do the Regulations say about not paying dues?

B. I think that after six months you autonatically are out.

•A Please • as a Secretary, you aust know more precisely.

---

## Page 40

destine

intente

1. That explanation did you glve the Connittee for not paying for

montas

B. I explained that I had conc on leave for January, but, vile on leave,

the question of ny new assignment or transfer fron the linvy to the la

was being resolved; that is all.

A. Do you know wether there was a Political Department of the Navy

Intelligence Diroctorate at that time:

B. I do not inor, I do not know.

I do not ronciber any department, because i never ras thereast dide

speaks with anyone.

A. Well, that ras the Navy GRU called at that time.

B. GRU; GRU of the Ministry of the Navy.

A. GRU Or RU.

B. GRU - Chief.

And the chief vas Vice-ádmiral VORONTSOV.

A. You do not remember whether there was a political department in this

GRU:

Endear.

B. There was none, because I never was there, and I never spoke with

anyone.

I was in Personnel several times and left.

I did not worl: one day there in the Ministry.

When I started working, It was right in Sovetskaya Gavan.

* #6÷E8

A. Nell, let us proceed further with the procedure - you were with the

Secretary of the Konsonol Conmittee of the MVD; you are talking with

---

## Page 41

with the Comnittee about being in tze process of enrolling,

Ten did this occur - then you already tere on duty.

B. Yes, then I as already on duty.

A. You already had begun woring.

Nell, tell me the

approxinate procedure - what did they

about.

What questions did they

ast: you.

talk to you

B. I do not rcaeuber.

I absolutely do not renember, I do rot remenber.

The Secretary of the konsonol Comittee did not speals

vas enrollins.

There were two girls there.

I gave them the information.

1. To whon did you pay the dues.

B. I paid the dues to tie organisation of the Socond Chief Directorate.

A. After the girls spoise to you, they asked you were you had been

enrolled.

B. Well, precisely - when I started working in the Second Chief Directorate

and reported to the Secretary, they told me that, before they

officially yould put me on the rolls they would send me sto the

Komsomol Committee; the Konsonol Connittee was to direct me.

The Party Secretary could not put se on the rolls...

Now that I had

begun working; "I will put you on the rolls, ((B's

surname))'; where:

On the Konsonol Conmittee rolls of the MVD, which directs me where.

To the Konsonol organization were I work; you unde

A. I have a question - how did you get on the rolls of the komsomol

CRE

---

## Page 42

B. I sp0:e mie the Secretary, and

he

told ne.

A. With the Secretary or with the sirl.

B. With the Socretary of the consocol organiration of the Second Chict

Directorate.

1. There did he send you.

B. ile sent se to the consool Comittec.

1. With who did you speal: over there.

B. There, they put me on the rolls.

They too! the number of my Konsonol card;

there vere gils in

registration.

They asked ne where I worked.

I said in tho Second Chief Directorate;

I said I had begun vorking

in March.

They did not give me any pager or anything, but I was enrolled

officially in the jonsonol Committee of the iND.

After that, the Secretary of the Party... Konsomol organization of the

Second Chief Directorate could place ze on Its rolls.

I was officially enrolled by the konsozol Connittee of the Second

Chief Directorate.

A. How do you explain that ve have been talking about this business for

half an hour, and five tines, instead of Konsonol organi-ation or

Komsomol Connittee, you have said Party Committee, the Committee of

the Party, etc.

Are you explaing to me what took place in the Party organization of la

Komsomol'

B. ((In a low voice)) the Komsonol organiz

tion on

SEGRET

---

## Page 43

mando goresplain that freques

Konsonol you say Party.

so, mistakes

B. Because this ras long ago.

liell, I was in the lousonol lon;, ago and I have becond accustoned,

instead of the lonsonol orranization, to the Party.

A. Now, that vas the practical procodure for putting you officially on

the rolls of the consool Coznittee of the D.

You spole with those sials, they too: the nunher of your lossonol card..

that next.

B. To isy thint:ing... I do not renember, I do not renenber

To ny tizinling... I am not able to give the details.

The girls told ne to lio and speal; with so-and-so in such and such a

room - cither SOXOLOY or KALININ or soneone elsef

thet

fellows.

Why.

Because these fellows supervise the Konsonol organization lio. 2.

A. That was their position:

B. They vere neabers of the bureau, of the konsonol Connittee of the iD.

A. Be more exact.

What was their position in the sousonol Committee.

B. I do not remember what their position was.

B. They were just in the Komsomol Comittee; they did not work ((in

operations)).

A. There are many people working there, and every one of them occupaes

certain position.

B. I do not remenber.

SEGRE

---

## Page 44

positions, and they have certain rasponsibilities.

B.

Right, but 1 do not resember.

A. That were the positions of SOKOLOY and this other fellow.

B. I do not ronenber.

A. Do you thinks it is logical to say that a secretary of a konsosol organ

Iration of the Socond Chief Directorate aust know appro-inately tho

works on the Konsonol Comittec, wat their positions are, rho comes

to the nectings, and tho supervises them.

B. I said that these two fellows - LININ and SOKOLOV - supervised the

organization.

A. That vere their positions.

B. Members of the Bureau of the Konsonol Committee.

A. Anyone can be a member of the bureau, even one who does not work

there - for your information.

But they have a certain functional position, which is vritten down on

paper - these are identified.

B. I do not renember.

A. We will return again to the following - if you were the Secretary,

you must know this, because it is very simple; not only do the

Secretaries know it, but everyone who was in the Komsomol does.

B. No, I do not remember, and I do not even know.

•. You can inagine that it is quite dilficult for me to belleve that

you vere a Secretary.

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## Page 45

ta-indon.

d. Hell, te will return to an old question - 3o7 and then did you

practicall; tot on the pernaneat rolls of the tonsonol Coanittee of

the LIVD:

B. In March 1953.

A. Well, explain los this vas done.

B. I said that ve talled.

A. You said you spoke with a girl about the rolls, with a senber of thea

Bureau; as you say, with one or the other moa you do rot gemember

What next.

B. ((Pause)) That is all.

A. That is all.

If you vere in the konsonol, if you were a Secretary, you must know.

B. I said what I reneaber.

A. You understand . this is not an answer.

B. I cannot do anything.

I cannot jump higher than my head.

I do not remember.

You want me to think up sonething for you, but I will not.

A. I salu, of course, practically speaking, if you had been Secretary,

you must know this.

Because it is not possible for a forner Secretary not to know.

Even it you vere not a Secretary, every Konsonglenenb

nowa how

Is placed on the rolls and how he is removed fron the rolls..

I simply want to find out where the bones lie hidden.

→ SECRET

---

## Page 46

of this rubbish, and....

B. This is a thing that I can not answer.

A. Ilow is it possible to believe you 100 percent after such a discussion.

• It is not possible.

B. What can I do if I do not remenber.

Do you want me to (.lie.) to you.

A. I do not know miat you are supposed to do, but I vant to knor precisely

vere you a Secretary, and vore you in the konsomol.

But since you cannot tell the sinplest things, I can nalie only one a

conclusion - that you never were a Secretary of the jonsonol organi

zation of the Second Chief Directorate, and I will question ncther

you vere in the konsonol at all, li you cannot relite the simplest

things.

B. I told you what I remenber.

A. The same thing happened with those with whon you spoke earlier, about

other questions, etc.

It always goes that way.

B. Well, what can I do 11 I have such a nemory:

I can do nothing.

A. It is not a matter of gemory..

B. . If I have such a memory....

((XG; A and B speak at the sane tine) )

A. I imagine that you had

a very good memory - you were a very good

worker®

---

## Page 47

B.

Rossonol organization, even though

the organiza

=

Nell, there ras no one else to clect.

There vere only typists, secretaries and 2-3 ((operational)) forkers

in all.

A. Listen; it is not important.

Thy did they select you and not IVANOv.

B. Well, naybe IVANOV sot caught drunk - they found out and they...

A. Anyway, there vere 15 people.

((XG; A and B speaks at the sane tine) )

You were a new man....

B. Typists and stenographers - they mould not select then.

A. Perhaps it rould be better to sclect a stenographer, because she has

been there all the time.

B. Nell, probably they considered that they needed an operational nan

as Secretary.

A. Vell, if they considered that tie Secretary had to be from among

operational personnel, then I conclude that there were not only typists

and stenographers, but also operational employees.

A. Well, there was RAKOVSKIY, Fellis.

Who else was there.

Then, there vas... later... he came later - I think he came in 1953.

(: KOTS:)

And there was someone else.

And, by the way, I gave the Secretary business to this sols.

SEGRE

---

## Page 48

"sa'":

and how.

That interests re is froy thon you sod: over.

B. I do not renember.

A. Well, let us proceed further.

How actually did you get on the rolls.

B. I told you hor it happened.

I do not renenber anything else.

A. Then I nace the only conclusion

I can, and that is - that you nover

vore of the rolls of the 20:so101 Consittee of the ird.

B. I told you how I was placed on ther.

A. You did not say anything.

You just told me that you saw a girl there, and then you spoke with a

fellow mon you, the secretary of the consonol organination did not

know and you did ant know what his position tas in the komsonol.

B. Member of the bureau of the Party... Konsonol Committee.

A. He could have been a member of the bureau.

This does not indicate that his position vas on the Konsonol Connittee

of the MVD.

B. I do not know wether he vas responsible for agitation or propoganda

or some other natter; I do not resember.

A. Tell, ve will return to another question.

You said that you were a Secretary sonethere else in a Konsonol

organization.

Where was that.

•..: сіви""

---

## Page 49

Intelligence in the Seventh ravy Fleet.

A. How many consonol senhers tore there

((Long pause)) approxinatel, sow many.

B. ((Long pause; then, in a lon voice:)) About 25; soncthin: llie that

•A. As Secretary of a consonol organiintion, to thoa in your "=sonol vori

vere you subordinate.

B. To one man; in ñonsonol vor:: I ms subordinate to no onc.

I was subordinate to the Deputy Chicf of Intclligence for Political

Aliairs, Col SURCHaIKO; no osc else.

A, And so taos vas Col DRONiO subordinate.

E. BURCHMTO - to the Political Departuent of the fleet.

A. There must have bech someone mo guided the ionsonol vor of the fleet.

B. No one ever cane to ne....

A. Ile might not have cone ((to you)).

B. BUPCHENO, JeS, BURCHENKO looked after the work of the Konsonol

organization.

A. There must have been someone above you, if he never came to see you.

You must surely know.

If you was the Secretary - handled all of the work, you must have

made reports to soneone else besides BURCHENKO.

B. All the reporting that we did me turned into BURCHENKO

And he participated in all the meetings.

---

## Page 50

tut nt renra to wat you say

Tot pur

anyone other than BurGlamO, only he conclusion can be nade

1s that you do not inor the

sinplest thing about hor the koisonol

orcanization works, to thon it is subordinate, hon lt Is conposed,

and you do not i:now the Regulations, etc.

The conclusion can be made that you vere not a Secictary, and the

question is raisod of mether you were in the consonol at all

It is as sinple as that.

D. Very vell, leave it at that.

A. "Very well, leave it at that" - that is one question.

B. I cannot... understand ue... cacuse ne... you are shoving

te, shoving,

shoving ne on this nonseuse...

on nonsense.

I do not renenber.

But no, you know that I do not remenber and you continue this....

A. I absolutely am not interested in raising questions ((of things)) which

you do not remember.

I do not renember.

I ansver you as it was mith ne.

A. A person to was in the Komsonol for ll years and va

Secretary nust know the simplest things mich every Konsonol member

knows.

It is not a natter of shoving; it is simply that I want to know if

you were a Secretary or not.

B. I have told you.

Nes, I was.

A. You answer: "Yes, I was."

But this absolutely confirus nothing, because you do not know the

---

## Page 51

14-00040 • •

о торця ше-ел?......

Let us take a breat, mid wive won

( (LUNCH) )

B. ((Speaking in a low voice, asis for a cigarctte))

A. Please; you did not asi. in the norning.

B. I have been thining and I have remembered sonething for confirmati

(u tochneniye) .

First, that there vas a Gernan Department precisely in 1953.

And my "preciscl;"

Decause Nikolay YEGOROV, a case officer, ras the Secretary of the

Party organization fron inon I too!: over.

He vorked in the German Department, the Third Departieni.

Therefore, that Nina was fron the same departaent.

I am telling you exactly - the Secretary.

A. Well, again, you have said that you renenber for sure that YEGOROV vas

Secretary of the Party…...

B. Well, the Konsonol organization - that is mat I have in mind.

I made a slip.

A. Then you took over....

B. FrOm Nikolay YEGOROV, who was accepted at that time as a candidate

member of the CPSU.

A. Tell, did he become a candidate right away.

B. No, not at once; of course not.

Once he was accepted as a candidate member, he requested the Komsomol

Committee to relieve him as Secretary - "I Alretay tr a"candidate

member of the Party"

Pitaissa.

---

## Page 52

neido you thot that there are candidate members and Party membe

continue to be Secretaries of Konsenol organizations.

I. And sonctiues they arc clected to be Secretaries.

A. By tie way, did you hear one of the Soviet jokes when you were there

in regard to Anerica.

"We have caught up with inerica in nil!"

B. There was son thing "scabrous"

A. but tie have not caught up in neat"

B. "The bull's phallus (thren) ins broken."

A. liell, a 5o0d joke; I heard it not long age.

Ticll, let us return to the question of how...

or, to put it briefly,

arc you soing to continue to insist that you were Secretary of the

bureau of the Kousonol organization of the Second Chief Directorate.

B. Secretary of the Konsonol organization.

A: Nell, if the bureau was elected, then you were Secrotary of the

bureau.

B. Well, he is not called the Secretary of the bureau, but the Secretary

of the primary Konsonol organization.

......

A. Nell, 1f

he has a bureau, he is called the Secretary of the bureau.

On the basis of the Regulations, it is written what is meant by

"primary organization", by "bureau", etc..

B. There is a bureau in any organization, both in the Committee and in

the primary organization; but he is called Sect

onsomot

Committee or Secretary of a Party organization:

A. Let us not get mixed up.

---

## Page 53

you understand.

ile is not called Secretary of the jonsool Bureau of the iD, 16

is called Secretary of tha prinary konsonol organiiation of the

Second Chiei Dircctorate..

Now, the Secretary of the Konsonol Consittce of tac iVD - that is

another thing.

But, here and there, there is a bureau in any organization.

A. Nell, let us take 1953.

How did you rot there and so forth

Today, you gave me the nane, KORETSKlY.

B. Yes, I have heard this.

He was the Chief of Surveillance when there vere Departuents 2-ü, 2-1.

A. Approximately how nany people vere there in surveillance.

B. I do not inow, I do not know.

A. Nell, If you are talking about konsonol work, I assume that you must

tell me that there was a konsonol Secretary in the Second Chief

Directorate.

To whom did the Komsonol members of KORETSKIY(('s office)) belong.

B. KORETSKIY was not there then I was.

There was the UODK, headed by BOYKOV.

They had Konsonol organizations in the departments of the wonk.

Then there ras a Konsonol organization for the entire UODK and this

Komsomol organization of the UODK as subordinate to the Party Coumittee

of the HVD:

A. Again, to the Party Committee...

B. The Konsomol Conmittee of the AVD.

-SEGRET

---

## Page 54

3. No, so, absolutoly; and, llicwise, the Party orcanisation.

A. Hell, now sany departaents vere there in the Second Chief Directorate

in 1933.

B. There were nine departments, and the tenti vas the VODk.

A. Alright; te will take nine departzents:

Besides the departnents, there were other units.

B. Well, the Secretariat, the enrollzent croup....

A. liell, if you prosune that each

of the departaents has onc :0=5001

member, then there are already nine of

them.

There was at least one nenber for each departnent.

B. No, in the English Departzent there was not one.

I can count then....

A. You do not have to for the time being.

We will return to this.

I want to deternine nore or less accurately the number....

I think your number, 15, is not right.

B. 15, 15 absolutely right Ionsonol nembers; a snall organization.

A. Well, we will return to our old question - how did you really get on

the rolls of the Komsonol Committee of the AVD:

As soon as you came to work in the Second Chief Directorate, you came

to the Komsomol Conmittee of the IND; you spoke with the girls; then

you spoke with soneone else; when did you become permanently enrolled.

B. Well, at the time I spoke with the girl of the enroliment group of

the Konsonol Committee.

- SECRET

---

## Page 55

Tonsonot card does lot Heat that you are bir theyr

D. They put to on the rolls; taoy issued an a card.

I do not rescaber.

I do not reneuber.

I am sinply telling hor it ms.

A. (Asks I to describe how the konsonol organiation is orcanized,

because - as ^ Socretary - ho should linow this.))

What are the rosponsibilities o tue socretary of the consonol

organiiation of the Second Cries Directorate

B. To manago the vori: of the consonol organization.

4. This is senoral - "to manage the vort of the consonol or aniration".

B. He collects dues, organires Tonsonol nectings, conducts the vor!. of

the hureau of the lonsonol organiration.

A. That is included in this vor.

B. Conduct lectures, discussions, verifies the nembers' participation in

their departments and in tic units, controls political training.

A. Nell, here - you are the Sccrotary of a Konsonol or

you should have political instruction too.

What did you personally study as a Konsonol nember in 1953 and 1954,

as Sccretary of

the Komsomol organization of the Second Chiet Directorate

B. You do not pose the question quite properly - not as Secretary,

although

elected, I studied Ilke all of the employees of the First

Department.

•I studied in the department.

All of the Komsonol menbers studied in theft ow departents.

The girls from the typing pool studied in the Secretariat.

"SEGRET

1748117

---

## Page 56

...i.

A .

...You are saying "foreign policy",

but you are explaing

"current events", "current crents"

There is a big difference.

B. I have in mind, "forcign policy", "foreign polley".

A. I want to now - vlo in the First Departrent could teach you -- you

mho had just iccently conc fron the Institute oi International

Relations; to could tell you sonothing about forcign policy which

you yourself did not understand.

B. ((KG; B spears in a vory low, mumbling voice))

A. I think I understand you correctly.

There is no logic.

It would be the same as if a person tao had graduated the Higher

Party School under the CC CPSU would cone to the Second Chief

Directorate and say, "I will ta''e the short course in the history of

the CPSU."

B. It is not the history of the CPSU; this is foreign polley.

The history of the CPSU is studied....

A. That can you learn in this group, and what can you get,

the time aray:

just to pass

2. 0225

B. For example, the Cerman question; there were several other questions.

A. A nan who was working in the American Department and was studying

foreign policy would study the German question.

B. This was the foreign policy course; not everything

the United States.

The whole foreign policy of the Soviet state.

- SEGRET

---

## Page 57

B. In 1953 and 19je, I mas studying Sorclen polloy.

A.

And shat were the other poople of the First Dopartsent studying.

B.

lic had two or thice croups.

The Party Organization of the Departnent decided riz: subject vould

be studied.

They would decide how sany groups

verc to be cstablished one group

would study the forcign policy of the Soviet Governsent; the second

group night study one of the voris of Lail; for excaylc, laterialism

and Imporio Criticisa.

Every year they decided what was to be studied and mant

Roups to

organised.

A. You sald that you had a foreinn policy course.

B. Yes.

A. You yourself studied.

B. Yes.

A. lould it not be proper to assune that you would stuck something an

You had just completed the Institute of International Relations; what

new thing could you learn in a forcign policy group.

r.7 938hi..

Who will teach you.

You had just recently completed the Institute of International Relations.

No... you understand... foreign policy - you are studying current

problens which arise, current problens; you study what is going on in

& country now.

A. Hell, I thin' there vere also groups. that studied current politics,

but you had outgrom this kind of group....

* SEGRET

---

## Page 58

1480d a said assis insane

I. There mie anout 20 persons - 15, 10 eanloyces of the. Dei

A. To was in charge of the troup.

B. One year It vas ALESHLi, chief of a section, disill.

A. What vore iis particular qualifications to teach a loreign policy

B. Nell, le was an educated can.

Â. He vas an educated man; that - a graduate of the lligher School

0f

the KGB.

B. In the past, he ras a Konsonol worker.

He came fron Party tork.

Ile came in 1932.

A. Well, this is one of the responsibilities - to study foreign policy

and to control that the jonsomol neabers study.

Further, you said that you collected dues -- want procedure ras there.

for the payuent of dues.

B. They received their pay in liVD and KGS on

the 20th of

month,

with the exception . if the 20th fell on Sunday, they rould pay on

the twenty-first.

Two or three days later, I rould collect the dues.

224.

A. Tell me in detail vhat you did; how Is it actually carried out:

B. A Konsomol nenber comes In; he presents his Fonsomol card, and you

already have an alphabetical list of all Komsomol members

A girl usually types this list.

This list gives the name and the number of the Komsouol card; in the

-SEARE

---

## Page 59

for example, "9"....

The nest colunn indicates the nonth for which the ducs arcito

for crample, in this case, it would be "10".

Then you as': the "onsonol nender what his basic bay is - for ernaple,

say, "250 rubles"; you put the total of two percent....

In the konsonol organization, two percent; in the prrty, three percent

two percent....

Well, you see, at that tine, it tas not 250, but 2,500 or 2,000.

You receive the money, and you mark down the anount that he paid;

for example, 10 rubles, if his basic pay vere 2,000... 40 rubles... Sc.

You mark: in his Konsonol card the amoung of his salary and there is

a column in which you mar:: down the dues - "10 rubles"

and then there is a column for the signature and a stamperete:

Dut, on the list, you nar' down how nuch noney you received fron il

and asis the konsonol nember for his signature, and he signs it.

A. Further:

B. That 1s a1l.

You are finished with him, and he leaves.

Two percent.

A. Let us assume he receives 1,000 rubles in old currency

B. ((Speaks with uncertainty)) 20 rubles, 20 rubles:

A. ((In English)) Are you sure about that:

B. Two percent.

A. I am asking if you are sure of that:

B. Trenty rubles, absolutely.

A.

You are sure:

SEGRET

---

## Page 60

A. I, of course, do not want to have any arguents.

The Perulations state a certain scale - tho pays hor nuch; how nuch

he recelves, and how nuch he pasy.

And that scale shows that sone people pay two percent, but not all of

thes.

B. All of our nenbors paid two percent.

A. That cannot be.

No one has the right to violnto the Konsonol Regulations - to take

norc from a nan than he is supposed to.

B. There tas no one who reccived 500 rubles, no onc.

A. That is why I aslied - if soncone receives one thousan

much coes he pay.

bles, how

B. Two percent - 20 rubles.

A. I ask again - are you sure.

B. Tro percent.

A. This is not true.

Because the Regulations cxplicitly state how nuch a nan pays according

to that he earns.

Everyone is not covered the sane way.

B. You understand; ve had no one tho received less than 1,000 rubles.

A. This ansver does not satisiy me.

Te are talking about the Regulations, bich clearly state how much a

man pays, according to how nuch he is paid

-- SECRE

---

## Page 61

14-00000

A. Tuls ls not true; how nuch did jor pa:

B. Tro percent, also.

A. That, too, is not true.

Açain, there is a big question here.

You do not now the simplest thing about the Secretary of a Kossonol

. orraniration.

You do

not even I:now how much dues the konsonol nonbers pay.

E. Then I mas a student, I paid 20 copcs.

A. Everyone inous tint students pay 20 copcis.

Eccause jou nention 20 opels, it sious

that the soale indicates hor

much students pay and how nuch the others ((do)).

It could not be that you yoursel: paid tro percent; you paid sonetiia;

other taan tro persent.

If you insist on telling ne that you paid tro percent, my only con-

clusion is that you vere not a Seuretary of a konso.ol organization.

That Is the only conclusion.

B. I do not inor; as I remenjer....

A. I do not want to insist and argue further on this question,

is a fact, clear as black on white.

but

tais

B. Right:

Right!

rubles.

But ve did not have any lor-paid personnel, ((receiving)) 200 or 300

((XG; A and B speak at the same tine))

A. I know that there was not anyone receiving 500 rubles in the Second

- SEGRET

---

## Page 62

14406000 assignin imitatorna

Everyone vas recciring nore tian 1,000.

B. Yes, rigist.

1. And no one of then mas paying tro percent, includine you.

B. Two percent, tro percent.

The Party organiration - tirce percent, regardless oi 40 he vas

Chief of Departnen:, case officor - fice percent.

A. Again you are wrong.

Also in tie Farty organiration, not everyone paj's thrce percent.

B. Of course, is a party menhei reccives up to 100 rubles, you vill pay

less, but no one in the *G3 receives less than 100

A. This is absolutely not true, and it is absolutely not right then you

say that you paid two percent.

It is not true, it is not true.

((70; A and 3 spea": at the sue time))

Tell, very vell, you collected the dues, the dues.

ho is entered on the list for tic dues.

That is that list called?

B. I do not reneaber, but all the konsonol members were on

delist.

A. It has a name.

B. I do not renenber, I do not remember.

List (vedonost') . that is what I remember.

It is ruled; you put down the surname and ini

A.

¡ Ilst for that — for pay.

SECRET

---

## Page 63

14-00000 man seido

¿. inat is its nane.

B. I do not renenber, I do not remember.

A. Vory sell, I will assume, I vill believe, that this tas in 1053 vhep

you collected dues, and you have forsotten.

But since 1936, wen you entered the Party, until 1954, you paid Party

dues.

B. Right.

A. Every nonth....

B. Three percent every month.

A. You see, and every month you cane to the Secretary of the Party

orcanization and every time jou saw this list.

B. Right.

A. Fron this experience, you should know what this list is called.

How is it called?

B. The devil knots - a list; that is all.

A. It is the same in both konsonol and Party; the only dilference is that.

one says "VLiSil and the other "KPSS .

B. Absolutely the same list.

A. Tell, what is the name.

B. I do not know; list, list.

FORET

---

## Page 64

1-00000

---

## Page 65

"Nio cortected me dues does not kiow the name of the

B. liell, list; taat 1s all.

I do not roneaber anything nore.

A. That is not all; that is not all.

This is tie sane as yesterday, wien you told me "It is the nicta

and nothine else".

B. inkota, and then the questions.

A. Rubbish.

Well, lilie it or not, that is rubbish; because there is sonething.

more sritten on the sheet, and there is a naue for it.

B. No.

Inketa; that is a11.

What kind of anteta.

What?

That about:

There is nothing else written on it.

It is not stanped secret, or top secret.

A. He will return to the matter of how it is stamped and the heading.

What Interests ne right now is why the Secretary of i konsonol

organization does not know that this list is called.

B. I do not remember; list.

A. Tell, alright; let us go further.

How do you record the Konsomol members in this list.

B. ((B's surnane and initials)); then the column in welch

the Komsomol

card number is recorded.

Then,

the last month is recorded... vell, the first column . the

SECRET

---

## Page 66

ministr

month of paynent of dues; lourth coluan - the sonth for which

ques are bein, said; (36) mad the stett column - the simatarca os

those to have paid.

1. Alright; you have made the record, and you have the money and signatures

in hand.

That do you do then

I. I turu the noney in to the icarest collection casilier.

The cashier's office was on tuznetstiy lost'.

A. Well, what olse.

B. I receive a receipt fron the casier for havirg turned in a certain

amount of nonoy.

1. That else.

B. Then I turn the receipt and the list in to the komsonol Committee.

A. That then:

B. That is all for the dues.

A. There was this collection cashier office located.

B. On Kuznetskiy Host'.

Kuznetskiy Host' crosses Dadarov Street.

It was on the corner of indanov Street and Kuznetskiy Host'.

You enter from the corner.

This was a savings bank or a branch of a rayon banl:.

A.

Well, what do you do l1 a nember has not palsh

B. I do not do anything; when he pays the next the, I find out the

- SEGRET

---

## Page 67

caлenod..

Of course, 11 he is around, I Will cind him; but 11 he is not

on lcave... he will pay when ho returns.

of course, konsonol and Party nembers usunlly pay in advance if they

know that they are going on leave.

Ile leaves his Konsool or Party card with the Secretary of the Konsomol

or Party organization, toother with the noney mich hede supposed

to pay for the next month while he is on leave.

1. Thilo you core a Secretary of a konsonol organication - il you vere

one - how dany tines, at konsonol meetings, did you sive reconnendations

for entering the Party.

B. I do not Icember.

I do not remenher; perhaps one or tro tines.

A. Do you renenber for whom it tas.

B. I do not renember.

I think... there vas in our First Department, Feliks RAKOVSKIY.

A. Well, this Fellks RAKOVSKIY makes ne sick; do not mention him again.

B. Why?

A. Because you mention this Feliks RAKOVSKIY, Feliks RAKOVSKIY everywere.

B. Heil, this was the First Department, where I began working

A. Is there anyone else:

Because, other than Fellks RAKOVSKIY, I see no one else.

B.

Of the girls - I do not remember wo, I do not remember

A.

We will return to the old question.

-SECRET

torahas

---

## Page 68

•д-інт Отек4.4. п-9?01.4

"Tomonot ComItter of he IVy well you began vorklag, were

on the Konsonol rolls before enterint on duty in the lyD.

B.

In a military unit, in Sovets.

A. In thick military unit!

• B. The Navy intclligence Point - Intelligence of. the Fourth Javy Fleet

A. In the city of Sovetsk.

3. Sovetsk of Prinorskiy Kray.

A. And thy do you say prinorskiy jray.

B. It is called Prinorskly Kray, formerly sonigsberg

Baltiysk - this is all Primorsily Kray.

frad,

A. Since when did they start calling It Primorskly Kray.

B. I do not know since then; but they called it that, when I was there

for a few nonths in 1952 - Prinorskly Kray.

A. There is an official name for the region.

B. Prinorskiy Kray; city of Sovets's, Primorskiy Kray.

A. What are the big towns in Primorskiy Kray.

B. Baltlysk, the former Pillau.

A. Baltlysk, what else?

Is that the only big city.

B.

do not know any more there.

• St

---

## Page 69

precisely:

PrEC 13S

A. I ass again - perhaps you are confusing it with sonething.

B. I an not confusing it with anything.

1. I would llike to help you because there never was any primorelly Ke

there.

B. Prinorskiy Kray; city of Sovetsis, Primorstly. Kily.

A. Yesterday, I thought well, perhaps the man just nade a slip.

в. N, по, по.

I remember, even in letters - Sovets, Prinorskly tray, military unit

such and such.

•A. What military unit was it.

Do you remember.

B. I do not remember.

A. While there, in thich Komsomol organization were you on the rolls.

B. The only one that we had - in the cIRP.

A. The Navy Intelligence Point.

B. Yes.

A. Approximately how many Komsomol members were there:

B. I am afraid to say . not less than 30.

We had many enlisted men; the officer compoRe

There were many enlisted men and petty officers.

-SECRET

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## Page 70

Alt a heen are

Well:

B. Woll, I say... that is why I say that there vere about 30 members.

We had about 15 officers in all.

All of the officers wore mombers of the party organiration..

1. I think it would bo logical to say that in such a responsible place

as the lavy Intelligence Point, most of the enlisted nen and petty

officers sould he icinsonol nembers, there they would have been selected

and checked.

Therefore, surely there must have been nore than 30 men.

B. Well, understand - there vero the nembers of the Party organization."

A. That is quite understandable... and there vere now

embers

B. There were those who were not Party nembers.

A. Nell, that was that Konsonol organization called:

B. The Konsonol organization of such and such a military unlt.

A. That military unit.

B. I do not remember the number of the military unit.

A. Well, what was it - Konsonol organization of the difftary unit:

What kind of a Konsonol organization:

B. A primary Komsomol organization; prinary Konsonol organization of

military unit such and such.

A. Tho was the Secretary:

B. I dó not remember.

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## Page 71

A.

Mas he an officer, an enlisted aan-a petty officer (serchant).

B. ((Speaks with uncertainty)) tio...

he cas... a tarrant officer... a

chief petty officer.

A. To thon ras this organization subordinate

B. To the Deputy Chief of Intelligence for Political affairs.

A. To the Deputy Chief....

B. Deputy Chief of the Fourth Ma:y Flcet.

A. Tho sas he.

B. I also do not remember.

A. Nell, to thon was the Deputy Chief of Intelligence subordinate

B. To the Polltical Department, the Political Directorate

of the Fleet.

A. Political Directorate of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

B. Yes.

A. Tell, anyway, you can be more precise - what vas the Konsonol

organization called, and to whoa it ras subortinate.

Because what you said is not entirely accurate; that is not the way it is

B. I am taking the last point.

The Secretary of the Komsomol organization is subordinate to whom.

To the Deputy... to the deputy commander of the military unit for

political work.

A. Let us express this nore precisely.

If one is an officer In the Navy - wheth

O1*

not

---

## Page 72

structure.

B. Right, right.

!....

A. And they have their own titles and nanes.

You see, then you say that....

B.

The prinary Party organization of military units....

A.

..For political or political affairs, etc., there is a difference, but

this....

B. I have in mind "for political affairs", "for political

airs'

deputy commander for political affairs; but this is not political vors:

Why bother with such hair-splitting?

A. Tais is not hair splitting.

An officer who was there would never say "for political work", because

It will be thought of as low-level.

B. For political affairs.

A. Let us call things by their own names.

What kind of Komsonol work did jou do there:

What were your responsibilities as a Konsonol member

the ARP.

when you

were at

B. I was a rank and file Komsonol member.

I could have carried out some separate tasks for the Secretary of the

Komsonol organization.

A. For example.

B. I do not remember.

Perhaps I gave a speech or two; that is all.

•SECRET

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## Page 73

""" was there "tor s"snorttie "ouy.

A. Tiell, waat kind of specci, for example

B. I do not ronember; well, I do not renember.

A. Nell, again, I an inclined to help you.

A man with a higher education, a language, etc., could do

do many things

there.

B. I could not do many things, because I tas there for a short time.

A. How long tere you there:

B. Four sonths, four and a half nonths.

A. Let us go back now to the old question - although you are not giving

me the nane of the Konsonol organization to shich it was subordinate,

how finally did you get on the rolls of the Komsonol Committee of

the MVD.

B. I told you how.

A. But saying that tells me nothing; what you said about speaking with

someone there, but shat should go before and after that

B. Well, I went to the registration group of the Konsozol Committee and

said that I had cone to be put on the rolls - "I a ane

employee

of the Second Chief Directorate"; they asked for my tonsomol card

"Here is my Konsonol card"; then they asked ne where I had been - I

told then I had been there and there; well, they opened a personnel

• card (litsevaya uchetnaya kartochka) on me and put me on the rolls.

A. That else.

B. Nothing else.

SECRET

........::...

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## Page 74

B. After the war, of course, because this vas a German sone

German territory.

A.

Since when did they start calling it Primorsly ray.

B.

I do not know; I do not know anything more.

Tits

A. Is there no other nane for this region.

3. City of Sovets's, Prinorskly kray.

That is bow the letters were addressed.

i. What is the capital of this Primorsily Kray.

B. Kaliningrad; Konigsberg, the former sonigsberg,

Ka

A. Since whes did they start calling it Primorskly Kray.

B. I do not know since when.

A. Hell, I think you should know, if you vere there.

B. I do not know.

A. It is difficult for me to belleve a man sho was there would not know

what this place was called.

B. I told you - city of Sovetsk, Primorskly tray.

A. There is no Primorskly Kray there and was none.

B.

I even received letters addressed to Primorskly Kray

A.

Perhaps, in the far Fast.

-SECRET

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## Page 75

A. Hell; since wien vas it called....

B. Well, since vich, since when

The territory is incorporated into the Soviet Union when it was

captured fron Germany.

This territory is close to Lithuania, kaliningrad, Baltiysi, Sovets!,

but since rhon It has been called primorsily fray, I do not koor.

I was theia

for several nonths in 1932.

In Sovets:, Primorstly try.

What was the capital of Pricorsily iray.

B. Kaliningrad, the former konlisberg.

A. Thy was it called kaliningrad.

B. They simply renaned the city.

Konigsberg was the German nane; then it was called kaliningrad.

B. They simply renamed the city.

Konigsberg was the German nase; then it was called Kaliningrad.

A. Just between us, did you really serve there.

B. ((In a low voice)) Yes.

A. Well, I do not insist, and I do not want to repeat it a hundred times -

tell me frankly if you served there or not.

B. 0f course!

That should I

say.

A.

Hell, if you served there, then way say

such a thing.

-SEONE

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## Page 76

1. In 1932 and even earlier - but I do not nt to say iron when

never was called pinorsily tray.

"B.

The city of Sovetst:, Prinorsiy tray.

That do you nean.

I sas there; I know.

A. I want to say that you perhaps

are

clsc.

still confusing this with something

B. I an not confusing this with anything.

1. There is no prinorsily iray.

B. I know that Prinorstly Kray is in the Far East;

A. There never was any here.

It is quite sad that a man who has cospleted the Institute of Inter-

national Relations does not know the siaplest things about Soviet

geography.

((Long Pause)) Well, you worsed for a long time in the Second Chief

Directorate; did you ever send an operational letter to this Primorstly

Kray:

B. No, no; not once.

A. Of course not; there never was such a place.

((Pause)) What is keeping fron telling that you never were there:

B. I say that I was there.

How can I say that I was not.

A. How can it be that a man who was there and worked there says that.

this,1s Primorskiy Kray, even though there never....

---

## Page 77

masons can top here and not nigeli

conclusion is that you, as Secretary of a Konsonol organiz

as a konsonol member, do not inow the Reculations concerning how a

person is put on the rolls in a konsonol orranlation, not only in

the consonol Comnittec, but in any military unit - because you could

not even give ne the correct nage of your kossonol organization in

the Navy.

B. The Konsonol organization of nilitary unit such and such.

That else.

A. He talked with you carlier about the fact that the Regulations state

how and where the consonol organizations are orgeniaed..

B. The prinary lousonol organization of military unit such and such.

A. Further, to thon is it subordinate:

B. It is subordinate to the deputy connander for polltical affairs.

A. Every polltical vorker, deputy commander for polltical affairs,

according to the Regulations, should supervise the for: of the

Konsonol organization.

B. Both the Party and the Konsonol.

A. There is soneone who is higher than the primary korsonol organization,

who is responsible for this.

Tho is it to whon this organization is subordinate?

Everyone knows, and it is written in the Regulations, that the

Party

guides the Konsonol; and it is true that the "Party god" always sticks

his nose into the Konsonol vor! m it is his duty.

But there

1s, above the primary organization, sone office to whom It

is subordinate and upon whose instructions the

horganization

works.

SECRET

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## Page 78

Nell, the Instructions come fros the Political Department;

political Depart-ent or the Political Direstorate of the Fleet, there

1s a Konsonol Connittee ((Laushs) )

A. I do not intend to explain it to you, but

((In

English)) you are complotel; trong.

B. I ans telling it the may I know it, but you vant...

A. One cannot accept that you say as valid coin vien it is not right.

I an trying, with leading questions, to hel? you....

B. Forgive me; I am not a political vorter, but you as ne for sucu

details.

...

A. Il you were a political sorker, I could as: you a

thousand other

questions.

I am asking you only what any konsonol seaber and the Secretary of

the konsonol organization of the Second Chief Directorate aust now.

B. I am answering everything as I know it.

A. You do not know - that is the problen.

-B. I ansver as I personally know it.

A. I nake the direct conclusion that you vere not a Secretary of a

Konsonol organization and that you do not know the sinplest things

about the Regulations of the Konsomol.

You know nothing about the collection of Konsonol

dues, except that

there is a list - but you do not know the name of the list.

B. That do you nean . I do not know about the dues

how It was done and how I did 1t.:

Crete i have said

GRET

---

## Page 79

what 1s very staple, it lotur to that also.

I want you yoursell to sale the explanations.

What did you actually do

Where terc you.

B. . I an telliuy you.

A. How could it happen that a man does not even lnoiw....

Ile cane to iloscow, cane into the organs of the KGs - this is not

crutch factory of the "Do not tale ney fros under the varm blanet'

Kolkhoz; this is the KGS.

B. ((In a low voice)) Yes.

i. There are certain rules, resulations and other things which you must

know as soon as you enter on duty there, but you camot esphlin the

simplest things.

I want to understand; I give you leading questions and others, but

you cannot answer; how is this to be explained

How is it to be explained:

B. What do you rant.

((XG; A and B speal: at the same time))

A. I want to know this simple thing • how did you get on the rolls:

B. I told you; I told you how I got on the rolls.

A. You said only one thing. which anyone could say: that you went to

the Komsomol Cormittee.

What next:

B. I went to the registration group and said,

, *I'am a nev employee; I as

vorking in the Second Chief Directorate."

They asked for my Konsonol card; I said

SECRET

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## Page 80

They asied no there I had been on the rolls and If I had

registered - I said, "Bio".

They ased there - I sald I had sorted there, I mas on the rolls there.

A. Further.

B. I told then viat had happened with ne - that I had cose on lezve and,

while on leave, the question of my transfer fros the lavy to the lu

arose.

So I began to vor: in the iD.

They wrote down my Konsonol card nusher and opcned a personnel card

on rac....

Dy tie say, lionsonol reprinands are recorded on this personnel card -

such things as a sovere reprinand with urning and a reprinand.

1. He will set to that then te tali about your punisiments.

I think by that tine you will be better prepared.

B. That do you ncan - "better prepared":

A. You will ((spea:)) nore believably.

A. Well, hat do you sean - "nore believably":

I an telling you rhat I have (2G) ((Laughs))

A. You see - you are lauging yourself.

B. Well... I am not laughing; I cannot tell you anything nore.

A. I have to laugh because you talk, you explain, but it does not fit

in any my, you understand.

I try to stick this in ((in order)), but I cannot, in any.

."ay

B. Thy can you not.

• SEG

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## Page 81

D. That - ronsense

Isis is liic.

A. You jourself are laughing.

B. I laugh because this is quite simply an absurd situation.

I tell you ({somethin':, but)) you tell se I do not lnon...

((XG; A and B spca!: at the sane tino))

I tell you how it vas; you tell ae I do not know.

A. How can a person say, "I paid 25".

tio; this cannot be, in any vay.

Or, for example, the last hour we vere talking, so.

of age".

yea

B. Yes, up to 27.

A. It was 26 the mole time.

They changed it much later, but not 1953, 1954.

B. It ((was)) preciscly so, precisely to 27 inclusive, precisely

because...

A. You understand... up to 26 inclusive.

But they changed it nuch later, when you already vere in the Party

if you were ((in the Party)).

В. Well, по; по, по.

Ao that are you saying - that I am trying ( to deceive

B. No, No.

You are mistaken, you are mistaren.

-SECRET

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## Page 82

No, no; you. ...

When I nake a nista:c, I adnit it Innediately.

*((Pause)) licll, let us so haci: to prinorslaly iray for a ainute.

Where did you get it that this place is called Prinorsily Kray

B. Fron where did I got it.

From the fact that they wrote letters to me ((there)).

A. Screw then, these letters:

There is the Aiministrative-Territorial Division of the Soviet Union

(Acministrativno-territorial 'nojo deleniye Sovetskoso Sojuz?), and

there never was a Prinorskiy Kray there.

Fron were did you get this.

D. But tho knons (iahren jogo znayet) from where I got

sovetsk, Prinorskiy iray.

the city

A. That is mat I want to say - fron there.

If there was none there, then how, fron were.

You made it up.

B. Here is fron mere.

They told me so (tak skazali me) .

Letters cane to me ((addressed)) thus...

city of Sovetsk,

Prinorskiy

Kray, military unit such and such.

I am telling you, but as 1f I made it up, as 11 I made at up

((XG; A and B speak at the sane time.))

Why do I need it, this Primorskly Kray; I am telling you how it vas,

how it was.

Here, a letter - ((addressed to)) Sovetsk,

Prin

devil knows why!

+ 15528-110

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## Page 83

A. Lot us not get upset..

There was no....

((XG; A and B spea': at the sanc tiae.) )

B:

There was.

A. How can you say there was, sien there was none.

D.

But I, rien, I rcceiver Ictters; but how - "there ras sone"

A.

Then terc you in some other place…...

B. I was in no other place....

*: 241

A. ... ((hen)) you received these letters.

B. No, I sas not.

A. Thin: how it nust be.

B. Why should I think about it.

A. I do not know viay.

I do not know thy it was necessary for you to say: Sorets

Kray; Baltiys':, Prinorskly Kray; Konigsberg, Primorskly Kray.

A second-grader would laugh.

B. ((In a very lon voice)) Prinorskly Kray, fron Prinorskly Kray, I

myself gave the address ((to someone, the

name "unreadable"))....

A. Take, for example, Krasnodar; ((it 1s)) the center of that kray?

B. 01 Krasnodarskly ((Kray)).

A.

So.

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## Page 84

i That die you say - Koniaber.

what kray.

B. To my thinking, now, now kalinigradskly, kalinigrad Oblast, now,

Kaliningrad Oblast.

A:

Let us procced fros the folloring - hen did tALlIN die

B. Nell, why ((tal:: about)) KALINT here

Thy iMLINI: here

Right niter the rar, they called it, konigsiero... they soon, innediately

naned it taliningrad.

A. Again, this is nonsense.

Listen, I simply rant that la you do not inor, you do not say

((anything)); if you know, tell the truth.

I am asking then iLluld died.

B. I do not remenber, I do not renember.

A. For your infornation, I will not say then, you yourself will thing

((of this)).

Kaliningrad ins renaned to honor LIll after his deat:.

And Kallningrad vas not Kaliningrad right after the var.

Therefore, for ne, there is a legitimate questions

the

in 1952:

How did a person in Sovets's in 1952 reccive letters ((addressed to))

the city of Sovetsk, Prinorskiy Iray:

This is utter rot (khuynja).

B. (XG) I will tell you what; you say konigsberg - right.

In 1945, I flew from Moscow to Konigsberg, to Tonigsberg with father;

here, right aray....

A. This already was after the var.

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## Page 85

B. 1945, 1042....

This ras mies

Juli, rulinusust.

A.

This already mas after the mr.

3. No, this, well, the mar had just endoù.

Mis was Konigsters.

A. I do not contradict this.

B. I do not now then they save konigsborg a naac.

In 1952, I arrived... in Sovotsi... Baltiysi, Soress!:.

This sas Kaliningrad.

That is all, that is all.

When, I do not know.

A. Since when has there been a Prinorskiy Kray in the Far East?

B. I do not know since men.

for a long, long, lons time, because you still read books about the

Civil far, the partisans of Prinors:iy 1r25.

1. And there is such a Prinorskiy Kray ((there)), right

:B. There is, there 1s; right.

A. And the center there?

B. Vladivostok.

A. But it would not be logical to have two Primorskly Trays:

Soviet Union.

the

B. I give you my honest vord - there is a secoga chr

SECRET

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## Page 86

Tayself was surprised, because I, I have been in Soretskaya Ca

but Sorctsinja Gavan' 1s also (fin)) Prlorskly fray, by the way

A. No one will dony it.

B. Two flects based in one tray.

The Fifth Flect - Vladivostol:; our Seventh - Sovets-aya

Gavan"

A. Thin's well - perhaps there is a Sovetsk in that Priaorskly tray

В. No, по, по, по: Sovets!:, Prinorstiy Kraj.

Hell, mut are you saying.

that are you taling about:

There is no Sovetsi: in that onc.

A. But there is.

By the way, there is.

B. No, No.

A. Agala; 1f you do not know, please, do not say ((anything)).

B. Well, look; I worked there, I had the nap, I looked at the map; I do

not remember a city, Sovetsis, there in Primorskly Kray In the Far

East.

A. If you had worked well there, then you mould rememberi

We will come back to the map again.

Well, anyway, do you still reckon that you were working as Secretary

of the Xonsomol organization.

B. I am not reckoning; why should I reckon:

It was ((so)).

_. "ell, how so - when you cannot even ansver the simplest things about

the Konsonol.

- SECRET

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## Page 87

y."T have sald wiat Fencuber: how, what Y remember, T have sal de

You understand that I see - te have been talini, for the secon

the second day; I have in zind (ist)....

((End of Rcel #3))

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