DEPOSITION OF RICHARD MCGARRAH HELMS (SELECTED PAGES)
Agency: ROCKCOM
Originator: ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION
Document date: 04/23/1975
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

178-10002-10092

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

8/27/201

AGENCY: ROCKCOM

RECORD NUMBER :

178-10002-10092

RECORD SERIES: SCHWARZER-MANFREDI FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : S-M (IV-DD) RICHARD HELMS

Document Information

ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION

-w.

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :.

TITLE: DEPOSITION OF RICHARD MCGARRAH HELMS (SELECTED PAGES)

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS:

04/23/1975

44

AMLASH

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

ASSASSINATIONS, DIEM

ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS

CIA

CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS

EDWARDS, SHEFFIELD

GIANCANA, SAM

HARVEY, WILLIAM

HELMS, RICHARD

JOHNSON, LYNDON

OPERATION MONGOOSE

ORGANIZED CRIME

PFIAB

ROSELLI, JOHNNY

DOCUMENT TYPE: DEPOSITION

CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret

RESTRICTIONS: IC

CURRENT STATUS:

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 07/01/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

• COMMENTS :

Selected section from much longer deposition.

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ORIGINAL

S-1

(V- DD)

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION

ON CIA ACTIVITIES

1 of 2

DEposition Di: RICHARD MeGARRAE

HEINS

Wednesday, April 23, 1975

Längley, Virginia

PHOTOCOPY .

FROM THE GERALD R.

FORD

LIBPARY

WARD & PAUT

Verba

Spoken

valant.

wards fly-

scripta

written

manent

wards endure

WASHINGTON, D.C

410 First Street, S.E., 20003

Phone

(202) 544-6000

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FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA

4055 Chain Bridge Rd., 22030

Phone

(703) 273-2400

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CONTENIS

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000

TESTIMONY OF :

Richard McGariah Helms

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(AFTERNOON SESSION - p. 109)

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EXHIBITS

NUMBER

Helms' No. 1

Helms' No. 2

Helms' No. 3 &

4

Helms' No. 5

FOR IDENTIFICATION

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PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LUBPARY

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with the Agency of the development or discussions of any plans

concerning the possible assassination of Patrice Lumumba?

A.

I don't recall anything about any plans to assassinate

Patiice Lumumba. I know that Lumumba was a controversial figure

at the time.. I know whatever year this was - was in the

Eisenhower or the Kennedy era that Lumumba was riding high.

I believe that the era would have been in the era of

1959, '60. I believe he was killed in early '61.

I remember later hearing all kinds of allegations

about Lumumba and how

he had been killed and why he had been

killed. I remember also the fact that the -- it was abundantly

clear that the Agency had had nothing to do with his demise

but whether there was a plot on the Agency at sometime or

another to try to bring about his demise I was not familiar with

TOT

ito I want to say here I will obviously do the very best i

can with my recollection but when you consider how much has been

ATT

in the newspapers about a number of things in the last period osta

years it is pretty hard to stick in time when you first heard

about something.

All I am trying to convey here is I was not as far as I

know privy to any ongoing plan to get rid of Patrice Lumumba

by assassination.

Now, the dictator of the Dominican Republic, Mr.

Trujillo, was killed on or about May 30, '61. Prior to that

time were you aware of the fact that there had been a request

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made of the Agency to deliver guns to dissidents in the

Dominican Republic?

A.

I don't believe I was familiar with it at the time

although I can't say. I

certainly heard about the gun business

later because I had occasion to go back when President Johnson

asked me about this episode at one time to look into the records

to find out about Trujillo. I could find no evidence that the

Agency had been responsible for his demise but I did find

evidence at the time that there was an opposition group in the

United: States Government was anxious to have the Agency support

and assist and I think I may very well have known about the

opposition group at the time.

I have no recollection any longer that I was privy to the

sending of any guns forto the Dominican Republic and if I was,

I don't recall they were ever identified as being designed to

kill Mr. Trujillo. I know there was a desire on the part of

whatever Administration was in power then, they didn't like Mr.

Trujillo. They like Mr. Duvalier and certain others but I was

aware of no attempts to bring about his death through Agency

assets.

I think since you have raised this question of an assassi-

nation I would like to say something as a generality here.

Dearly in the game when Colonel Galloway was my boss in

what was then known as the Office of Special Operations, I don't

even recall any more in what connection this came up but he said

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to me one day that the Agency should certainly have the

capability to get rid of foreigners when required and that this

had to be done secretly and you should never ask your boss

for

permission to do these things, and so forth. I remember at the

time arguing with him about this and saying that I though that

there was no possibility whatever that the United States Govern-

ment could develop a capacity to kill people because you could

never keep it a secret. Sooner of later, maybe after five years

ten years, Lord knows what, someone would come in of write some

Congressman and say the Agency was responsible for killing so

and so and aside from the morlity of

it I felt it was impracti-

cal for the US Government to do something like that at this time

I felt that way all the time I was Director.. I never in my

towards killing, murder, assassination of anybody of whom I am

aware, and so I can only tell you that as the years have gone

by, as I say, quite aside from moral asepcts of this thing,

the Improbability of

ever being able to do anything like that as

an American Government agency has become less and less viable.

In fact, I have often said to associates that there are

three things that the American people would never stand for.

One is assassination, two is rape, and three is dealing in

drugs. So that I

didn't want anybody in the Agency thinking

that any of those things were going to be satisfactory to me.

Mr. Manfredi asked you about some notes in which there

was the mention of three handwritten names by you. One was

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SISA

Castro, one was Trujillo, and do you remember what the third

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was?

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Ao

Diem.

And I think you have already testified about that.

A I just did, because President Johnson had raised these

cases with me and I thought that since he had done it he might

have raised them with President Nixon and early in his Admini-

stration I wanted to get him sträightened out on this.

You know, to this day I am not persuaded that President

FR

Nixon doesn't still believe that the Agency didn't have something

to do with the demise of President Diem of Vietnam and there is

THE

absolutely no evidence of this in the Agencyprecords and the

whole thing has been, I mean, rather -- what is the word I want

GERALD

_ heated by the fact that President Johnson used to go around

saying that the reason President Kennedy was

assassinated was

that he had assassinated President Diem and this was just !.:

justice. He certainly used to say that in the early days of

Presidency and where he got this idea from I don't know. I

FORD

LIBRARY

don't know how many of you had the privilege of trying to argue.

with Presidents about things like that but you tend to be a

loser.

Let me just digress on that one point for the moment.

Before we get back to Mr. Castro. After the election in Chile, ;

I believe it was in 1970 where Allende derived a plurality,

President Nixon called you of contacted you to ascertain if

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anything. could be done to prevent his envestiture, that is,

Allende's investiture by the Chilean legislature. Do you:

remember' that call?

A.

No.

Or contact?

A.

I knew this subject had come up but I thought it came

up in the context of the 40 Committee deliberations. I don't

recall a conversation with President Nixon. I don't say I never

had one. I just don't recall it in that form.

Q.

Do you recall any request made by the President or

anyone else in the White House that the Agency funnel funds and

also even perahps

submachine guns to see if something could be

done

to prevent the

legislature from electing him?

A.

Well, certainly they wanted the legislature not to

elect President Allende. The Nixon Administration certainly

didn't want that. My recollection of the circumstance, though,

at the time was that having investigated this, we came to the

conclusion there was no way to prevent his investiture. And

I do not recall anything about machine guns.

Or guns of any kind?

A.

I don't recall anything about guns. I recall a desire

to bribe, see if it was possible to bribe enough representatives

who were going to participate in the election. That was a non

available affair. There was no entity in Chile that showed the

slightest interest in upsetting the Government or the results

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JHI

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of the election and, although there was a great deal of

pressure to do something about it, I don't recall our finding

any way that we could have done it.

l Do you recall that there was a specific direction

from the President that you not advise the Secretary of

State of this request from the White House?. Do you ever

recall that being done?

A No, I don't recall his saying it in this connection

but, MI. Belin, let me just say that this was a

favorite

device of President Nixon, Don't tell so and so. Be sure

you keep this secret. So I am not questioning the fact that

he might very well have said it. On the other hand, I don't

recall it in this connection.

In what connection do you recall his telling you

not to tell the Secretary of State about it?

A

Oh, I think these were things having to do with

Vietnam and Southeast Asia,as best I recall.

O Do you recall his ever telling you not to tell any-

thing about this particular subject involving Chile to

the Forty Committee?

A

No. I don't remember that.

I assume that if the President would have told you

not to tell the Secretary of State, you would have followed;

the direction of the President.

A

oh, of course.

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And if he told you not to tell the Forty Committee

you would have followed his direction on that?

Yes. After

all, these devices are part of his

A

office.

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And if he told you not to tell the President's

Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board you would follow his

direction there?

Yes. I think there would be no question about it.

He was my boss.

And if he told you not to tell Congressional over-

sight committees you would follow his direction there?

A

I never recall having discussed that with him, not

informing the Congress. I don't recall any conversations of

that kind.

well, if he would have told you that --

A. Nor do I recall any conversations about the .

President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. If you

have evidence that he asked me not to tell them something

I won't challenge it but the President's Foreign Advisory

Board quite frankly, never loomed in his mind large enough

to be, I don't think, as a considered factor.

The Committee was not performing a true oversight

function. Would that be a fair statement?

A

The President's Foreign Intelligence Board?

Yes.

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No. I don't want to identify myself with that

statement because they had

their own way that they thought

they were doing their job and I assume they thought they

were doing it and I never regarded them as an oversight

organization.

Well, if the President would have told you to

refrain from commenting about a subject to the Foreign .

Intelligence Advisory Board --

A I would have found no strain with that at all.

And if he would have told you not to tell a

particular thing to a Congressional oversight committee,

how would you --

A: I don't know. I might have argued with him about

that depending upon what it was, because there you have

a different kind of a situation. After all, the President is

the boss. of the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. He

appoints it and they are his creatures, and so is the

Secretary of State, and so are his assistants in the White

House. After all, under our system of Government the President

rides supreme over the Executive Branch, so if he tells

somebody there not to tell somebody else he has got every

right, I assume, to do so.

With a Congressional committee you are under a different!

situation because there you have a coordinate branch of the

Government where his writ does not obtain, necessarily.

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PHOTOCOPY

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And so what you are saying is to the extent that

there is a Legislative Branch of the Government, that would

basically depend upon what the particular request of the

President was?

Yes, and I think if I thought he was asking me to

deprive them of something they had a right to have, I would

certainly have an argument with him about it because after

all, I have to live with both, or a Director has to live with

both.

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PHOTOCOPY

FR

And hypothetically if you argue with him and you do?

not convince him then what would you disposition be?

A

Well, that would be pretty tough over an issue of

that kind.

I suppose in the end I would have to comply, he

being my boss, but I mean, I wouldn't feel very happy about

it and I don't recall having had that kind of a trauma.

FORD

I want to now turn to the Castro situation, ....'

Ambassador Helms. When approximately did you first become

aware of the fact that there was an ongoing plan within the

Agency to try and have Castro assassinated?

A

Well, when you put it this way, I am not sure what

you are referring to because during the years of the Kennedy

Administration, there was a flat-out effort ordered by

the White House, the President, Bobby Kennedy who was after'

all his man, his right hand in these matters, to unseat the

Castro government, to do everything possible to get rid of

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10h27

it by whatever device could be found and thati was the

reason for mounting this large operation in Miami to work

on this very problem. And the Bay of Pigs was a part of this

effort and after the Bay of Pigs failed, there was even a..

greater push to try to get rid of this Communist influence 90

miles from the United States shores:

The business about the assassination of Castro, I have

read about this in the papers. I'have heard about it from

associates. It has been kicked around whether this was a

viable proposition or not. I have no doubt it was written

into various plans as one of many options but I don't recall

any successful effort that was made in this direction and

since Castro is alive and apparently well in Havana, the

extent to which this was serious!! have never ascertained.

Do you recall

the fact that poison pills were

developed to be delivered to assets or to people in Cuba for

possible insertion in food or drink to be eaten by

Castro?

A

Were poison pills taken to Cuba? I never knew any-

thing about this. I don't recall ever having heard anything

about poison pills or any of that. What I want to say in this

connection is the fact that I never heard about this doesn't

mean that there were ma-y, many ideas discussed in the Agency"

about what to do with the Cuban Government but I don't

recall anything. like poison pills.

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GERALD R.

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DO YOU

Whose idea was this? Do you have the information?

Well -

I recall somebody discussing with me one day an

even crazier idea which had to do with some kind of a thing

that might be planted on the beach where Castro walked in the

morning and it would blow up when he put his foot on it, or

something. There were more nutty ideas. It reminded me of

the time of OSS when somebody wanted to get propaganda into

Germany and they discovered there was a herd of cows that

grazed in Germany and were milked in France, so

they devised

some suppositories into which there were put a lot of

propaganda leaflets and those were put in the cows on the

theory they were being left on the German side of

the border

when the cows

were grazing and nobody would be the wiser.

So to say there are nutty ideas cooked up in organizations

like this is to tell

the truth.

Is there any evidence, may I ask, Mr. Belin, is

there any evidence in the record that any Director authorized

what I can only refer to by

the dictionary definition of

an assassination of a foreign leader?

Well, there is evidence in the

record, Ambassador

Helms, that there were plans made to try and assassinate

Premier Castro of Cuba, that there were several series of

plans, and that the plans at at least one or two of the

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THE GERALD 1

FORD LIBRARY

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stages included the delivery of poison pills developed in

the Agency to be placed in food or drink --

They were delivered in Cuba?.

-- of Castro, and that the pills were delivered to

Mr. Roselli, who in turn delivered them to other people,

and that the pills eventually found their way to Cuba.

A

How do we know that?

There are Agency reports that they were. We do not

have any first-hand information that they were, but there

are -- there are memoranda which indicates that they were

through, among others, disaffected Cubans.

Who returned to the United States and testified

to the fact that they had received the pills or something?

Who have not testified to anything.

A

I see.

That is one --

A Who authorized this particular operation?

This is one of the areas that we are. trying to

ascertain and I suppose my first question along this line

was whether or not you had any knowledge of the existence of

such a plan.

A

Not that I recall.

And you indicate

that you never knew of such

plan?

A I don't recall any plan.

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Do you ever recall after you succeeded Richard Bissell,

that you were approached concerning whether or not you should

advise John McCone of the existence of such plans or

operations?

A

I was approached to do what?

As to whether or

not Mr. McCone should be briefed

about the existence of such a plan or plans?

This is after the fact? Or before the fact? Or in

the process?

During the fact.

You mean I had replaced Bissell and somebody in the

Agency came to me and said should we tell Mr.McCone about a

previously authorized plan?

Yes. Do you recall that at all?

I don't recall it. I am sorry.

I Do you recall ever discussing this with William

A

Harvey?

A I don't know. I discussed hundreds of things with

Harvey when he was working on the Cuban problem. I don't

recall this. I recall a great deal to do with Harvey about

Roselli but I don't recall any conversation with Harvey

about talking to MI. McCone about Roselli because Harvey-

when he became in charge of the Cuban business, and so forth,

that whole Cuban operation, picked up various things around

and about and among them was the ongoing contact with Roselli

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Linde Setter

which did not start, I believe, in the DDP area. It started

in the Office of Security, if I recollect, to what

I found

in the record at one time. I believe it was Colonel Edwards

who had first to do with Roselli.

I believe that is accurate.

A

And when Harvey acquired Roselli, we had an ongoing

liability and I had been told he häd been asked to do these

various things and there was no way to do it except to try

to hold his hand and I was testifying earlier this morning,

so for some years we had this

Roselli albatross around our

neck.

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FROM THE

GERALD

Do you recall ever briefing or submitting any

documents to John McCone concerning a memorandum with Robert

Kennedy? Does this ring a bell with you at all of not?

Well, it seems - I recall at some juncture it was

-- somebody made a decision that it would be advisable to

brief Robert Kennedy as the Attorney General about the

existence of Roselli and various things that the Agency had

had to do with him and I believe that -- this I have been

told -- I have had my memory refreshed on this. I don't

want to mislead you. I have been told that it was Edwards

and Houston who went down to brief the Attorney General.

I am not 100 percent certain about that any more. But I

know there was a memorandum for the record made at the time

because I have had reason to review it.

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I. And who told you this?

A

I don't recall. It may have been Houston, may have

been Edwards at the time. I don't remember. But I remember I

reviewed it when there was a story in the Chicago - one

of the Chicago newspapers some years ago about this whole

Roselli business, that I asked for the records and looked at

them at that

time.

MR. BELIN: I am going to mark an exhibit, if I

can. You can call this, if you would Helms' Exhibit 1.

(The document referred to was marked

for identification, Helms' Exhibit

No. 1:)

PHOTOCOPY

THE GERALD

BY MR. BELIN:

& I hand you what the reporter has marked Helms NO:

1, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a front-page

story from the Chicago Sun Times under date of August 16,

1963, headlines "CIA Sought Giancana. Help for Cuba Spying."

I want you to examine this and see if perhaps that

is

what you had reference to in reference to the Chicago

stories.

LIBRARY

It could very easily be. It looks just like what

I recall came out at the time and I think somehow or other

this name Sandy Smith sticks in my mind as being the writer y

of the article in geustion. So I have no reason to doubt that*

this is the article we are talking about.

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Q

Do you remember Stanley J. Grogan?

A

YeS.

He was one of your assistants?

Stanley J. Grogan was in charge of the office here

that dealt with the press. In other words, he was -- and

Gus Thermers, one of his predecessors. His title was Assistant

to the Director but he simply handled press inquiries.

MR. BELIN: Mark Helms' NO. 2.

(The document referred to was marked

for identification, Helms! Exhibit

No. 2.)

BY MR. BELIN:

I hand you what has been marked Helms' No. 2,

which is a memorandum for the record

with a typewritten

signature of Stanley J. Grogan dated August 16, 1963*

referring to a telephone call the previous evening from Sandy

Smith of the Chicago Sun Times and ask if you ever saw that

before?

..A..

I don't know. There is no reason why I shouldn't have

seen it, if it was directed to me. Is there no copy around

with my initials on it as having seen it?

I have not searched all of the records concerning

PHOTOCOPY FROM

THE GERALD R.

FORD

that.

A

Usually I initialed memoranda, or at least the cover

sheets, or something, if they came to me.

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MR. BELIN: Mark Numbers 3 and 4.

(The documents

referred to were marked

for identification, Helms' Exhibit

Nos. 3 and 4.)

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BY MR. BELIN:

Handing you what has been marked Helms. Exhibit

No. 3, which is a memorandum which appears to be prepared by

you, also under date of August 16, 1963, I think that might

have your initials on it. And there is a -- that is attached

to what is marked as Helms! Exhibit No. 4, which is a memo-

randum for the records dated 14 May 1962, pertaining to Arthur

James Balletti, et al.

A All right. I have read these.

@ Do you have any refreshed recollection as to the

background of those, Ambassador Helms?

A, Well, I don't understand what you mean by a

refreshed recollection. I mean, at the time I was told that

Roselli was trying to get into Cuba. Whether I was told that

this was an assassination plot, for which $150,000 was being

projected, and so forth, I don't recall any more but I wasn't

involved in the activity at the time and when I had to go

back into the files to get this thing, you will see there that

I had to call Colonel Edwards to find out if there was any

records of this, and so forth, so it was something in which I

hadn't been involved and I obviously in recent years have

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heard a great deal about the so-called Roselli assassination

but I have never heard anybody come and tell me that anybody

had ever verified that it was any more than conversation and

I must say to this very day nobody has showed me one scintilla

of evidence that anything ever

happened about it except

conversation.

The --

A

I am not saying it didn't.I am just saying I

have never seen any evidence.

• The document Exhibit 4 was a memorandum for the

record which pertained to an oral briefing in which Mr. Housto

and Mr. Edwards of the Agency briefed Attorney General Robert

Kennedy•

A

(Nods in affirmative.)

Had you ever seen this memorandum for the record

before today?

A Well, I am relatively certain I must have seen it

the day I sent it to the Director.

Had you seen it before then?

A

I don't recall.

This memorandum for the record dated 14 May 1962,

refers to a plan which was started in the fall of 1960 and

which continued through April of 1961. Were you ever aware

that subsequent to that

time there was a second plan which

began in late 1961 or early 1962 in which William Harvey

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took over the plan?

A

To do what?

To try and assassinate Fidel Castro.

I don't recall ever any -- I mean, I recall a great

many activities of Harvey but I don't recall an effort

to assassinate Castro as put that way. I mean, the dictionary

definition. I am telling you they were trying to unseat his

entire government, so the fact that they were trying to get

rid of him is no argument but I don't recall any specific plan

or proposal that was approved to assassinate Castro.

Do you remember any authorization on your part

for William Harvey to handle this on a special basis?

A Oh, I certainly remember the discussions with him

about Roselli and his Mafia types and the fact they were

going to have to be handled on a special basis but I don't

recall any special basis being used to try to get them to

do an assassination.

@ Do you remember that sometime in April of 1962 Sheffle:

Edwards obtained your approval to have William Harvey get

in touch with Roselli?

A.

Well, that may be.

Do you remember?

A

Because I certainly know at some point Harvey

took over Roselli. I don't remember at what time but I know

he took him over and for a long time handled him thereafter

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and reported these contacts to the FBI. We just had that

albatross

around our necks for a very long time indeed. I

don't know when it finally ended but it seems to me it

was some years.

Do you remember any discussions with William Harvey

in which one of the things agreed upon was that the DCI,,

Mr. McCone, would not be briefed about this?

A

No, I don't

recall any conversations with Harvey

or anybody else that Mr.McCone shouldn't be briefed. I don't

say they didn't take place. I just don't have any recollection

of it. I can't think today why I would have not wanted him

briefed about something. I mean, after all, one of the bases

on which this Agency has always operated was that the Director

was privy to know anything that went on. That was established

early in the game.

Well, the Director --

A Is there some evidence that I said no, don't tell

the Director, or he shouldn't be briefed?

well, there has been testimony and there is documen-

tation that it was agreed between you and Mr. Harvey not

to brief the DCI and I wonder whether of not you have any

recollection, No. I, of whether of not that discussion was

had and if you do have any such recollection, as to why that

discussion might have been had.

No. I don't have any recollection of the discussion.

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Do you remember any briefing of the DCI at any time

prior to Helms' Exhibit No. 3, the August 16, 1963?

A Let's see.

Who would have been DCI then? John

McCone?

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Yes:

I don't know. I don't recall any other discussion

with him on this subject.

And on -

A I don't say it didn't take place. I just don'e

recall any.

Now, on August 16, 1963, you delivered this memorand

Helms' Exhibit No. 3, to MI. McCone referring to Sam Giancana

and you said this is an outgrowth of this Chicago Sun-

Times story of also August 16, 1963, Helms' No. I, is that

correct?

Hoda

Yes.

Do you remember whether or ot you briefed him at

that time on the fact that Mr. Harvey had taken over the

operation and the operation might have continued beyond the

first stage with Mr. Giancana?

A. I have no recollection of this -- I have seen the

memorandum. I have no doubt it is mine. I have no doubt it

went forward.I remember the episode but I don't remember the

conversation with Mr. McCone at the time if there was one.

If Mr. Edwards or Mr. Harvey were to say they had

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discussions with you that I previously questioned you about,

is it your testimony that you have no recollection that would

enable you to confirm it or deny it?

Yes. I just don't remember it. I mean, if they were

to sit here and go back through the conversation, and so forth

maybe it would come to mind but I don't recall it now and

see no point in trying to testify to something that I don't

remember.

PHOTOCOPY

@ Did you have any knowledge of any other plans

involved in an attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro?

A As I was saying a moment ago, there were various

idea floated by variove people in the covezont that it mour

be nice to get rid of him, and so forth, but I don't recall

any viable plans that were ever brought to light to do this

and most of the -- I say most - almost the entire energies

of the DDP in thos days were attempting to get these operation

in Miami organized to see if there was some way to undo the

LIBPARY

government of Fidel Castro and it was a major effort going.

on and I am certain that there were discussions of the .

possibilities of killing various people in connection with, you

know, the options that one has to carry through a certain

injunction that you have been given, but I don't recall any

plans that were approved or that were viable specifically

directed at eliminating Castro, but that there were conver-

sations about it, I haven't the slightest doubt.

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Do you know who

in the White House would have had

those conversations with his people in the Agency?

A

It seems to me that back

in those days there was

something called - there was some committee that sat at the

White House that had to do with counter-insürgency as I.

recall it.

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Would that be the Special Operations group?

A . I don't know what the name is any more, different

changes, but this group used to meet constantly on the

problems of Cuba and Latin America, and so forth, and also

problems all around the world - how are we going to organize

ourselves to fight this problem, that problem and the other

problem?

I am sure there must be records of this thing. It

used to meet all the time down at the Executive Office

Building. It had met a lot on Asia, as I recall it, and the

problem in Vietnam, and so forth, and I have no doubt there

was

some organization that we used to report to regularly abou

naidart adoa

our progress in the Cuban thing. I forget which committee

it was but certainly, the Attorney General was right there

all the time. Joe Califano was involved from the Army

Department in these matters. I don't know. There were other

people. Ihave forgotten now all the -- that is a long time

ago.

A

Yes, sir. Does the name Mongoose ring any bell?

Sure. Mongoose was sort of a general cover rubric

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for the whole effort to unseat the Castro government.

Is this the group that you are referring to?

A

No. Mongoose would have been an internal agency

thing, I think. Now,

maybe it was known downtown as - or

some of these people who were privy to these things in

other agencies that this was the rubric. I am not sure. It

may well be.

When they name a special group, Special Group Augmente

or Special Operations Group --

A

That sounds familiar, yes. That sounds familiar.

I am ashamed that you know more about these things these

days than I do but honesly, I haven't even thought about them

in all these years.

Sir, do you have any recollection as to who might

have been the driving forces from the White House in efforts

to do something about Castro?

A Well, the principal driving force was the Attorney

General, Robert Kennedy. There isn't any question about this.

Involved in this was a group of individuals who were sort of

hired and pulled together by Kennedy and Rusk and McNamara

and McGeorge Bundy and all those people to get on with this

job and as

I sit here and start to think about this,

Califano was one of them. It seems to me Lansdale, who had

been successful in this kind of operation out in the Far

East was brought in for a while. There was a small office.

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over in the Pentagon where people -- as a matter of fact, now

that I think about it, that Mongoose thing, wasn't that a

Lansdale invention that was produced in the Pentagon and that

special operations, Gene Erskine headed -- isn't that - some

of this is coming back to me now.

Well, as it comes back to you, do you remember any

discussions involved connected of indirectly connected or any

way connected with that operation involving any attempts to

assassinate Fidel Castro?

A I don't recall specifically. I would be surprised

that it wasn't discussed at times but I don't recall any

of these

discussions

particularly.

O- Do you remember any discussions with Mr. Harvey

concerning the furnishing of either arms or poison pills

to Cuban exiles to have them try and carry out any assassina-

tion plan?

A

I don't have any question that we tried to land

them in Cuba, to bring down this government or to kill

anybody that they could lay their hands on. This was a

the instructions and all this were pretty rough and.

pretty fulsome but when you come down to this question of a

specific project was approved which was designed for a man

to go to Point B and actually shoot or poison or do something

to Castro, I don't recall anything of that kind and I to

this very day would like to see some evidence

that this

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chde8

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actually was ever carried out. I think that there was a lot

of lying on the part of those Cubans and a lot of backing and

forthing with allegations of things that happened that never

did happen and as I look back on the whole period, with

all the effort that was made in money and manpower, and

so forth, devoted to try and unseat the Castro government,

when one looks back at it it was a pretty pitiful effort

and I think a great deal of it was just, what shall I say,

talking a good game.

l Now, do you have any recollection of any briefing

of McCone about any Agency plans in which Harvey or Roselli

or Sheffield Edwards may have been involved other than

Exhibit 4?

A:

I don't have any recollection of that, Mr. Belin.

I want to tell you that all I recall was that McCone was

constantly asking about how we were getting along with the

Cuban operations and McCone was constantly being briefed about

what we were trying to do about these operations but what

was in all those briefings I have no recollection any more

at all and no matter how I would work on this I would never

be able to sort it all out. It was -- a lot of effort was

being made, all kinds of things to get boats and to train

Cubans to man those boats and land on secret shores and all.

kinds of things.

If --

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May I ask a

question at this juncture? Since Castro

is alive and well in Cuba, what is the problem about these

-- trying to verify all this business about whether these

attempts were made or not made? I mean, does it make any

difference any more?

well, there are two major areas of concern apart

from whether or not assassination should play any part in

American policy. One area concerns how the plans were

authorized, whether they were directed externally of whether

they grewup internally.

The second area concerns what I would call internal moni-

toring and control. If Mr. McCone didn't know about it, other

than that briefing, that poses a problem so far as an Agency

operating under control. If you did not know about it until

the spring of 1962, and the information that I have gathered

indicates that you were. not privy to any information about

this until the spring of 1962, you were in a fairly important

position in the Agency and yet were not aware of what could

have been a potentially disastrous operation,, certainly an

operation that had all kinds of ramifications

for this,

country when one considers the trigger of World War I involved

an assassination attempt.

And so, therefore, the scope of my inquiry is not

necessarily to say it is this person's responsibility but in

large part it is to determine how these plans got organized

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and how they were kept under control, and I should tell you

that it is my information that, although you did not have any

information about this prior to the spring of 1962, that

in the spring of 1962 you were made privy to what I am going to

call Phase I which was the Giancana phase and also what I am

going to call Phase II when William Harvey took over the

operation, and that MI. McCone, according to the records that

I have seen, was not briefed until the August 16, 1963

memorandum, in part because of the fact Mr.McCone had not

been DCI at the time the plans were undertaken, so the

documents say that I have seen, and that at the time of his

briefing in August of 1963, it was not an oral briefing. but

rather limited to a discussion of the Giancana matter in

the memorandum for the record addressed to Senator Kennedy,

Exhibit 4.

Now, is there anything that. I have said which disagrees

with anything that is to the best of your recollection?

A I have no reason to cavil with what you say. I

don't have any contrary recollections but I don't remember a

lot of this either. So --

Q: Now, do you remember Senator Kennedy coming over

to the Agency on or about March 8, 1967, to review this

memorandum for the records that was Helms' Exhibit 4 that

pertained to his 1962 briefing?

Senator Kennedy visited the Agency to do that?

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Yes. He either visited the Agency or was hand-

delivered a copy of that. Does that ring a bell with you

at all?

A' No, it doesn't, but "I don't say it didn't happen.

I don't

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You don't remember any conversations with Senator

Kennedy: about this?

A

No, I don't.

•Q. Do you remember any conversations with Lawrence

Houston about -

Oh, yes, it was Houston who told me about the

briefing in the first place.

That is right, and when Houston told you about the

briefing and Houston was present at the briefing, do you

remember what he said and what you said at all or don't you?

A. No.

l Do you remember having any conversations with either

Houston about Robert Kennedy wanting to see the memorandum

again

on -- sometime in 1967?

A I don't remember the thing at all but, you know,

if it - if the record says that this happened I have no

reason to argue with it. It would not have loomed large in

my life at that late date and if he wanted to look at it

I wouldn't have the slightest doubt I authorized somebody

to show it to him. I don't recall his coming out here to

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100k

at it. In other words, I

don't recall him ever being

in my office here.

Do you have any recollection of a project known

as Project Amlash?

A Amlash? By that name, not any more.

Q Did you ever?

A. Don't forget, Mr. Belin, that there were hundreds

of these things.

@ Do you have any recollection of any man by the

name of Rolando Cubela who was a Cuban who at one time had

been associated with Castro and then became disaffected

with him?

A Let's see. Was he the fellow who eventually ended

up in Paris or Madrid or something of this kind?

Yes. At one time he did and then eventually

he ended up in Cuba but he was met by Agency people in Paris.

What was his

particular cryptonym?

Well, among other things, some Black Leaf 40 had

been developed to be delivered to him in a pen which had been

constructed to have a hypodermic needle with the object to

inject the Black Leaf 40 into. Castro. And that was delivered

to him. in Paris on November 22, 1963. Do you remember?

A

I certainly remember Cubela., I certainly remember

the fact that he was, I think -- was he a defector from the

Cuban regime.

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Yes.

A .

Or was he an agent whom we recruited who had not

yet defected or what? I certainly remember his name and I

certainly remember the.use that was made of a fellow named

Cubela but I don't recall exactly for what.

There was an effort to recruit him in place.

There were eventually some weapons delivered to him.

A

Were there? I don't have any reason to doubt it.

The Black Leaf 40 and the hypodermic pen, and so forth, I

don't recall.

HOad

Do. you recall any Agency scheme which involved trying

•to put a spectacular seashell in an area

A. That is what I was talking about earlier. womebody

was talking once about trying to put a bomb on his beach

where he walked, or something.

Or where he skin-dived.

A

Yes, that is the idea. I do remember somebody

discussing whether that would be aviable operation or not.

Do you ever

remember anyone discussing giving

. Castro a skin-diving suit which would include some tuberculosis

bacteria in the breathing apparatus and also possibly some

fungus which would produce madura foot?

A

Madura foot? I remèmber, it seems to me, Fitzgerald

had a bright idea about the skin-diving suit. I don't

remember his -- I don't think I recall at all that there was

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any plan to put anything in it. I have even forgotten what

the skin-diving suit was but I want to tell you these came

up every day, some hairbrained. idea like this to do some-

thing about Cuba, but that these

actually were carried out,

I don't recall any instances of it. I don't recall any approvals

given to actually set the seashell down or to send the thing

or that any assets were developed to do these things. These

were a lot of things: that were discussed and I am sure they

got down on paper since you have them but I don't recall they

were ever approved or ever carried out or any attempt to

carry them out.

0 .;

Do you remember that eventually arms were delivered

to Mr. Cubela in Cuba?

A I don't have any doubt about it. I think

we

delivered arms all over the place in connection with Cuba.

I mean, let us not for a moment think that the Kennedy

Administration wasn't dead serious about getting rid of the

Castro government. I mean,. let's not -- this was a

Government operation and if Dean Rusk of anybody, MaGeorge

Bundy or anybody else is sitting around, no, no, no, we

didn't have this in mind at all; let's get that all straightened

out. They wanted to get rid of Castro. Well, let me say

that I don't know that Dean Rusk wanted to get rid of him

but certainly President Kennedy wanted to get rid of him.

What do you mean by getting rid of him?

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A .

They wanted to unseat his government. They wanted to

bring his government down by whatever device could be found.

Q: Which could include assassination?

A I don't know that the word assassination was ever

used but certainly if you land armed men on a beach and the

effort is to recruit other armed men and to try to start a

whole arrangement whereby you, you know, you bring down a

government, sombeody is bound to get shot. But the thing

that I am doing my level best with you about and which even

as I sit here thinking about it, is the focus on this

assassination business as though this was a, you

know, some

thing that was totally part and parcel of killing or invasions

of anything of that kind. Put in that context, I just don't

remember that any of these operations were ever mounted

let alone had any prospects: of success. That a lot of them wer

discussed, I haven't the slightest doubt and I don't know

what other people in the Government have testified to but

even that must have come up at various meetings as to whether

this was a viable way to get rid of the man.

There is a very great difference, it seems to me,

when you actually approved it, were prepared to take the

responsibility.

For the record, there appear to have been no plans.:

undertaken to carry out either the seashell or the skin-diving

suit but there do appear to be plans to deliver the poison

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pills and plans to deliver weapons.

A

All right.

You don't have any recollection to the contrary,

do you?

A

No, I don't.

I want to get back to Chile, if I can.

After the pluralty victory of Allende - I will back-

track. Before the election the Agency spent a substantial sum

PHOTOCOPY

of money in coordination with the Secretary of State as a

part of a propaganda effort showing the dangers of the Marxist

regime.

AHT

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Now, what years are we in now?

We are now in 1970.

Because one of the problems about Cuba and

testimony I have made in Congress is that there were two

operations in Cuba, one in -- I mean in Chile. Excuse me.

Chile. Not Cuba. Chile. One in 1964 and then a different

kind of a thing in 1970, and one of the reasons that my

credibility was questioned was that I answered rather narrowly

a coupde of questions that Senator Symington asked me because.

I assumed and I had reason to believe that he knew that

in 1964 we had funded actual candidates in the Chilean

election. In other words, we had given money to the candidates

themselves, not money to civic action groups or things of

this kind.

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Well, my particular questions now pertain to the

election of 1970.

A May I say that I have absolutely no objection to

your going into the Agency records. There are a lot of people

around here who remember what was done in 1970. 1962 and

1961, et cetera, people have died, but whatever those fellows

that ran the W.H. Division and were Chief of Station in

Chile and all the rest, I have got no reason to cavil with

PHOTOCOPY

them. They are honest men and will tell the truth about it.

I encouraged Senator Church to do it. They have gone over

this with me over and over and over again and I remember only

so much about it. But the facts are ascertainable.

GERALD

Let me try to establish this, if you have any

recollection on it, that prior to the election on or about

September 4, 1970, the Agency did spend a considerable amount

of funds in coordination with the. State Department for..

propaganda efforts to convince or to show the people of Chile

the dangers of a Marxist regime. Do you remember that?

Yes. I have no doubt that money. was spent. I

think it was just for those purposes, as I recall it.

And after the election, but before the investiture

by the legislature, there were the authorization of

additional

funds to be spent to prevent the accession of Allende to the:

presidency by seeking to induce various Chilean groups and

possibly the military to thwart the investiture. Do you

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remember that?

A

I don't remember that in that form. My recollection

was that efforts were made to find out if there was any way

to do it but I don't recall that anybody found any

way to do

it and that, therefore, the whole thing was dropped. There

may have been some, you know, minor additional expenditures

made but I don't recall anybody approving of a specific

plan to stop the investiture.

Q And you don't have any recollection of the providing

of any submachineguns to any military officers?

A: No, I don't, but. if Tom Karamessines or one of

PHOTOCOPY

FROM

THE

those fellows testifies to the fact that they did send machine

guns down there and they delivered to Mr. X or MI. Y Or Mr.Z,

I have no reason to question it.

l .. And do you have any recollection of any conversationg

with President Nixon after the Chilean election in this

connection to see what could be done to thwart investiture

Pang

Li.

IBRARY

of Allende and to not tell either the Secretary of State

or other members of the Forty Committee about it?

A .. This was a private conversation

between me and

President Nixon?

Yes, sir.

A

I don't recall it. Where did it take place?

Well, let me show you from your files a memorandum

of a meeting on September 15, 1970.

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Who were present at that meeting besides you and

the President, according to your memo?

A

According to the memo it says present were John

Mitchell and Henry Kissinger. Let's see what these notes

say. As I interpret these notes, this was an injunction to

me to do everything possible to stop it. But I don't recall

that we were able to find any way to do it.

• And how much funds were authorized to be spent?

A Well, it says here "$10 million is available, more

if nedessary."

A

Then, what does it say?

"Full-time job. Best men we have." In other words,

this was a Nixon injunction to pull out all the stops to do

this.

@ But you don't have any specific recollection. of

his direction to you not to tell the Forty Committee or

the Secretary of State?

No, I don't.

MR. BELIN: Mark. No. 5.

(The document referred to was marked

for identification, Helms' Exhibit

No. 5.)

BY MR. BELIN:

The last item I want to talk to you about at this

time goes back to 1962. I am sorry to skip back and forth.

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A

All right.

You mentioned that the Attorney General, Robert

Kennedy, was intimately involved with Operation Mongoose.

And

there appears to be a corroborating memorandum prepared by

you dated October 16, 1962, pertaining to this, and I wonder

if you would read this memorandum and see if it refreshes

your recollection.

A

6 October 1962. When was the Cuban missile crisis?

The Cuban missile crisis, I believe, was in October

of 1962.

Colonel Patchell. I had forgotten all about him.

This letterhas been marked Helms' Exhibit 5.

A

That sort of lays it out, doesn't it?

Ambassador Helms, having read the Helms' Exhibit

No. 5, this is a memorandum which you prepared which appears

to have been prepared on October 16, 1962, the date that you

met with the Attorney General, is that correct?

A

Yes.

And to the best of your recollection, did the

Attorney General express the general dissatisfaction of the

President with the Operation Mongoose?

A

I have every reason

to believe that what I wrote

in that memorandum was the best of my recollection of what

was said and what went on in the meeting described.

Would it be fair to say that the Attorney General

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was personally involved and continued to become more personally

involved with the overall Mongoose Operation?

Yes.

Q. Do you know whether or not at any time the Attorney

General was ever advised of the fact that William Harvey

had overtaken or had taken over a certain portion of the

Roselli operation?

A

I don't have any recollection of that. Have

you ever talked to Harvey, incidentally?

Yes, sir.

What did he have to say on the subject?

Well, Mr. Harvey never met with the Attorney General

but Mr.Harvey did say that he --

He never saw the Attorney General?.

He never discussed - no, he didn't say that.

Oh.

He never discussed the particular plans in which he

was personally involved with the Attorney General.

A

I see. I see.

He did say that sometime in the spring of 1962

you became aware of those plans and that would be corroborated

by other documentation that I have seen, and that he also

said that you and he determined not to brief the DCI on it

at the time and that is also corroborated by other documenta-

tion that I have seen.

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What sort of documentation?

Memorandum.

Memorandum for the record?

Well, memorandum involving among other things,

review of the entire area of this. I have notes on it. I

don't have the memorandum here at this time.

I don't know if I would call it a memorandum for

the record but at least there is some written documentation,

but I don't know whether made contemporaneously, that there

was a decision not to brief DCI, McCone, the memorandum

having been talked about earlier.

A Let me ask a very important question here at this

РНОТОСОРУ

NOXI

point.

Surely.

A

This plan that Harvey was alleged to have, how

far did it ever get? I mean, what I am trying to get at

here is that we are dealing with a lot of conjecture, a lot

of thoughts, a lot of ideas. Now, did any plan get down to the

point where somebody was about to get in a boat or airplane

and go to. Cuba and do X or Y and it shows I approved this

happening or was this

something he was going to try to develop

and see if it could fly and if there was any possibility

that it might work, and so forth?

I. There are reports that the people with whom there

was contact did get to Cuba with pills and with --

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A

This was the first --

-- other occasions.

First phase?

And also the second phase and in addition, there

were subsequent reports that there were arms provided

also and what you are saying is if this plan continued over

a period of several years it continued without your express

overview,as I understand your testimony, is that correct?

A

Yes. My recollection of Harvey's dealings with

Roselli or during most of the period that was that nothing

ever happened about anything.

A

Well, certainly Mr. Castro is still living.

Yes, but I mean, I think this -- I don't know whose

word to trust in this but I think that, you know, this is a

pretty thin reed, this Roselli business. He was a pain in

the neck and an awful albatross but I think we got zero

use out of him.

MR: MANFREDI: Mr .Helms, this is Harola Baker,

another member of the staff.

THE WITNESS: How do you do?

MR. BELIN: Mr. Baker is going to be here tomorrow.

I think at this time we will let you take a breather and

at least adjourn the deposition to resume tomorrow morning.

THE WITNESS:

What time would you like me here,

Mr. Baker?

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MR. BAKER: Mr. Gray was going to start first.

MR. BELIN: MI. Gray is not -- well, I have asked

the questions that Mr. Gray wanted to ask.

MR. BAKER: I see. What would be convenient for

you?

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THE WITNESS: I want to meet your convenience.

I mean my desire is to be as available and get everything

done that we can so I can get back to my job.

MR. BAKER: Half past nine?

THE WITNESS: Fine.

MR. BELIN: All right. Well, thank you, sir, for

your cooperation.

THE WITNESS: Thank you. Iwant to cooperate. I

want to help. I will try and be a little bit, lot more alert

tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the taking of the

deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Thursday,

April

'24, 1975.)

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