TRANSCRIPT:REEL #4. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN, 28-29 JULY 1965.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/28/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Date: 01/31/01

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104-10534-10036

JFK

NOSENKO RECORDS

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Released under the John

F. Kennedy

Assassination Records

Collection

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144 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 53216 Date:

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TITLE : TRANSCRIPT:REEL #4. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN,

28-29 JULY 1965.

DATE: 07/28/65

PAGES

: 68

SUBJECTS : NOSENKO

DERYABIN

NBR

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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COMMENTS : JFK-M-24: F37 2001.01.31.11:43:22:337084: NOSENKO NOT

BELIEVED RELEVANT (NBR). ATTACHED IS HSCA STAFF REVIEW

FORM DATED 9 MAY 1978.

SEE F34 FOR KEY TO TRANSCRIPT.

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TRANSCRIPT

NOSENKO Interrogation

28 July 1965

29 July 1965

Reel #4

- FOLDERL

JOB.

81 - 00175R

RETIRED FILE

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".8.g

MATERIAL REVIEWED AT CIA HEADQUARTERS BY

HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

STAFF MEMBERS

FILE TITLE/NUMBER/VOLUME :

TRANSCRIPT

NOSENKO INTARROGATION

REEL #4

INCLUSIVE DATES:_

28 JULY 1965-29 JUL4 1965

CUSTODIAL UNIT/LOCATION: SE

ROOM:

DELETIONS, IF ANY:

DATE

RECEIVED

9 MAY 781

DATE

RETURNED

REVIEWED BY (PRINT NAME)

JOHANNA SMITH

SIGNATURE OF REVIEWING OFFICIAL

Johanna Suita

NO DOCUMENTS MAY BE COPIED OR

REMOVED FROM THIS

FILE

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REEL #

28 July 1965

29 July 1965

TRANSLATION

B. Well, take Dzerzhinskiy, on Dzerzhinskiy Square, the "Detskiy Mir"

store was opened only in recent years.

That is, when I began working in 1953, there was no

"Detskiy Mir".

When was it there?

I absolutely do not remember, I do not remember.

A. One minute.

B. What was there before?

I also do not remember.

The same with the Gastronom -- when was it opened?

I do not remember.

A. ... When you began working

. . ..

B. ... I say I do not remember

....

( (XG;

A and B speak at the same time.))

A. But I was not asking you about that ((the "Detskiy Mir" store)).

You told me yourself.

B. (XG) .

A. Alright; if you worked there 11 years, etc...,

the "Detskiy Mir"

was open....

When was it opened?

B.

When?

I do not remember, I do not remember.

And I also do not remember what there was

either.

in that place before,

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I remember only that, on the Tsentral'nyy Street (proyezd) side,

there was a very well-known, famous bar, in a basement - I remember

this.

But what kind of building there was before this, I do not remember;

but in 1953, there was no "Detskiy Mir".

A. ((In English.)) Well,

if you worked there, you would know exactly what was there.

B. I do not remember.

A. And, probably, if you had worked there, you would have dropped in

there several times.

And that will be my next question.

B. But, please;

I am telling you; please -- I do not remember what

was there before the "Detskiy Mir".

There was some kind of building, but I do not remember what was there.

But, on that side, where Dzershinskiy Street goes down to Marx Street

(Prospekt Marksa), there was a bar.

A. That there was a bar there, every dog, all the KGB employees and

all of Moscow knew.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

B. Yes, everyone knew - right.

But I do not remember what there was in this building.

A. Why did they like to go to that bar?

B. Because there was always crayfish and beer there.

Well, it was an interesting bar.

There were several bars in Moscow.

But this bar was called precisely "Bar".

It was in a basement and it had a low ceiling.

A. When did they change the name, "Bar"'?

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B. I do not remember; the name, "Bar", was changed to "Pivnoy Zal

(Beer Hall)"; "Pivnoy Zal" Number Such-and-such, "Pivnoy Zal"

Number Two.

A.

Imagine - if you worked in the KGB in 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956,

1957, 1958, etc., then probably every day you walked on

Dzherzhinskiy Square from some side.

B. Certainly.

A. You went on Dzherzhinskiy Street from one side or another somewhere.

B. Yes.

A. You probably passed along Kuznetskiy Most'

every day.

B. Yes.

A. I can in no way believe that you have forgotten what there was

in the place "Detskiy Mir" ((now stands)).

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. Impossible.

B. I do not remember, I tell you I do not remember.

I myself can give you an example.

Anyone can become confused.

A. For what reason do you give this example?

This is another question.

We can return to this later.

Well, anyway, what about the Komsomol?

B. I told you about it absolutely accurately, the way I remember it.

So, so, so.

A. Well, what did you speak about with the Komsomol Committee Secretary

of the MVD the first time you saw him?

B. It was not only the Secretary of the Komsomol Committee who spoke

with me the first time - it was either SOKOLOV or KOZ'MIN, one of

these bureau members.

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A. Well, what did he ask you?

B. It was about where I was on the rolls, when I entered the Komsomol,

what kind of Komsomol tasks I have had, whether I held a responsible

Komsomol position.

A .

One minute, he asked you where you were on the rolls.

What did you tell him?

B. ((Pause)) He did not ask me like that;

he asked when I entered;

I told him I entered the Komsomol in 1943.

So, I had had no punishments.

Had I been elected to a responsible position?

I was once elected in the Far East, where I started to work in 1950;

I had been elected in 1951.

I was elected Secretary of the Party organization; this was my only

elective office, but I fulfilled other tasks as a rank-and-file

Komsomol member.

A. Again... Party or Komsomol?

B. Komsomol.

Where was I last on the rolls?

I told him I was at the Navy Intelligence Point on the Baltic, in the

Fourth Navy Fleet.

I was on the rolls there for only a few months.

What else did he ask me?

I do not remember.

He might have asked about my family status, about education....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. Well, I will ask a leading question -- where was your personal

Komsomol file located when you were working in the Baltic?

B. What Komsomol file?

Here, there is only a personal Komsomol record card.

A. Where was it?

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B. I do not know, I do not know, I can not say.

A. If you were the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second

Chief Directorate, even

without knowing where the card had been in

the Baltic area, you would be able to answer this question.

B. Very well, I can tell you, of course, according to how it is supposed

to be.

I am telling you, not because I remember -- I do not remember;

the

card, of course, should be in the Political Department.

In the Political Department there is a section, a Komsomol Committee,

which guides all of the Komsomol organizations, all of the primary

organizations in the Fourth Fleet.

But, I do not remember that, and I tell you I do not remember.

A. Well, when the Secretary asked you where you were enrolled, he had

in mind whereyyour card was;

what didyyou answer him?

B. I told him that I was a Komsomol member of the Komsomol organization

of the Navy Intelligence Point of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

That is all.

Do you think that they ask that the card be sent?

Nothing of the kind.

They issue a new one.

A. Nell, are you telling the way it was in fact or are you making this

up just to pass the time away?

B. I am not making anything up.

A. When you say ....

B. Well, then they should have asked me, there in the MVD, "Tell us

the number of the military unit to which to send for inquiries".

But no one asked me these things.

A. It they did not ask you these things, how could they request your

card?

B. I am telling you that they certainly did not ask for the card.

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A. How does this conform with the Regulations?

B. I do not remember.

A. We again are confronted with a question - whether, ((as)) you say,

they did not request your card, or you do not remember.

B. I do not say that they did not request it;

did not ask me.

I am saying that they

A.

It means that you were not in the Komsomol.

B. ((In a low voice.)) I can not say anything more;

think what you want.

A. We will not say this is "think what you want" .

B. I cannot tellzyou

anything more.

I tell you I am trying, explaining the way I know it;

I know;

what I do not know, I do not know.

What I know,

A. To hear a Secretary of a Komsomol organization say that they did

not request the card but issued a new one - this is absurd.

B. Why did I make that conclusion?

Because no one asked me -- neither the girl in the registry group,

nor the member of the bureau of the Komsomol asked me anything

((such as)) "Listen ((B's surname) ), let us write down where and what.

A. Well, it would be logical to ask this;

let us assume

' . ..

B. Logical, logical.

In case they had to request my card from the old place where I was

on the rolls, it would be logical for them to ask me; this is why I

made the conclusion that they did not request it.

A. Then how could it happen, for example, if you came to them

... they

accepted you for work in the KGB - we will assume you came

to the

Secretary of the MVD Komsomol with the Komsomol card.

The Komsomol card does not indicate the punishment.

If there are, in the Komsomol card, ten punishments, then what about

the questions of accepting you for work in the organs of the MVD?

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B. The punishments will be indicated in the Personnel file.

The Personnel file will indicate that you had a punishment in the

Party or Komsomol.

Indeed it will be there.

A. It will be there, that is true, but the basic document for Komsomol

punishments is the Komsomol card.

B. The card on the Komsomol member which is maintained on him at the

place where he is on the rolls.

A. My question - all of the time, we have been going over it the whole

day - how could they put you on the rolls of the Komsomol without

seeing your Komsomol card?

B. I did not just come in off the street.

Look how you

are making your judgement -- as if it were the Komsomol

Committee accepting me for work.

I already was

accepted for work -- this is the work of Personnel.

Now would

the Komsomol Committee regulate the work of Personnel?

NO.

A. Again - you know little about what goes on.

No one says that the Komsomol Committee controls the work.

For a

man who was just about to leave the Komsomol, the Secretary of

the Komsomol Committee probably will speak to the Personnel Department

about what they think.

They have plenty of their own over-age personnel ((Komsomol members)).

B. I do not know whether they talked or not —- they would not inform me.

A. Had you not been a Secretary, perhaps it would not be worthwhile

asking these questions - because, as a Secretary of a Komsomol

organization, you must know this, because it is daily and routine work.

You do not have to learn the work, it works itself in.

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B. You are confusing me a little bit; you see how it was - I was the

Secretary of a small Komsomol organization.

It is just additional work.

There are Komsomol Secretaries who make it their profession.

A. I have already said that if you vere just a Secretary lie, wither the esprit

A. I have already said that if you were just a Secretary

B. This, I would have to know about Party - Komsomol work like God.

A. Then, perhaps, I would ask more questions than I am asking.

Most of what you have said makes it difficult to believe that you

were a Secretary.

There

is no basis to believe it.

((Long pause.)) Let us assume that you are the Secretary of a Komsomol

organization;

there are only 15 members; you simply execute the work

of a Secretary, but

you have other, operational work.

When did you find time for a Komsomol meeting?

B. Once or

twice every

three months.

A. Well, again - you are saying this deliberately; right?

But the Regulations state how many meetings there are to be.

Of course, it is not necessary that these regulations always be

observed,

but someone checks, and the Secretary always is asked if a

meeting was held or not.

B. You are making

a big issue of this; you are judging strictly

officially, according to how the Regulations are to be followed.

Approach this differently - what is the Komsomol organization?

It is a small organization, just so and so many are in it - what can

one do with this small organization"

It is a different thing if it is the Komsomol organization of

Surveillance - it is a huge one.

A. But, as far as I know

....

B. In a large organization, the pot has to keep boiling - indeed, they

will require a huge organization ((to operate)) strictly.

But a small organization

....

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A. The main work goes on in the Second Chief Directorate, not in

Surveillance, the chief work.

The most important is Counterintelligence, then Surveillance.

B. I am talking about the Komsomol organization.

A. Well, we will say that you do not call the meetings as frequently as

the Regulations call for.

No one will deny this.

But, if you do not call meetings at all, someone makes a check on them.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

... But not one time in three months - this is absurd.

B. Not at all absurd.

I tell you more than half -- 80 percent - of the members are typists

and secretaries

from

other departments.

How can I pose a question concerning work in a meeting of the Komsomol

organization?

I cannot do that.

First of all, the people come from different departments.

These are support people, not operational.

It is a different thing if it is a Party organization or Komsomol

organization in a department, but there were none in the departments

of the Second Chief Directorate.

Here, questions closely connected with work are raised.

A. This is all understandable.

B. And here we discuss how a Komsomol member must behave, or, we will

say, a Plenum, a Plenum of the Komsomol or a Plenum of the CC of the

Party has just been held - and this is the talk of the Komsonol

organization.

Ninety-nine (99) percent of our talk is about the Plenum and our

agreement with it.

We could not talk about work, because such is the set-up of the

Komsomol organization.

If, for example, ((B's surname)) were Secretary of the Komsomol

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organization of the Second Special Department - then we could discuss

operational matters, because everyone belongs to the same shop, but

here all the members are from different departments.

Say, one secretary to SHUBNYAKOV; another to GRIBANOV.

A.

Well, one more last question today - how did you write in answering

in the anketa, when you were in GRU, the question of whether you had

had any wounds or contusions?

B.

"No", "no"; the answer was "no".

A. Well, how did you explain the wound on your hand?

B. To whom?

A. Well, to the GRU.

B. No one asked me; I did not tell anyone there.

A. Why, do you think no one asked?

B. I do not know why.

I tell you that I never wrote this in the anketa.

Il I had been asked, I would have said that it occured entirely

accidently and so forth.

I would stick to the legenda which I told in the Leningrad School.

A. Well, as an employee of 1l years in counterintelligence do you not

think that if they were accepting you into the KGB, on that day or

later they would try to establish the truth?

B. But it was recorded nowerers

A. But it is recorded on your hand.

B. Well, alright; no one asked me.

It is not in the Personnel file... no, not in the GRU; it is not

recorded anywhere.

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A. Well, do you think it is logical to accept a man for a job in the

Second Chief Directorate without checking him - checking him through

the Medical Commission - and only to believe him when he says he is

healthy?

B. I do not know; they saw... they received a file from the GRU, where

there was a Medical Commission report of my examination of the time

when I was going into the Navy GRU.

A.

Quite a bit of time had passed

....

B. They did not send me to the Medical Commission.

I told you that I went two or three times in all while I was working

in the KGB.

A. Well, between us, while you were working in the KGB, did you ever

explain to anyone what had happened to your hand?

B. Never - the question never came up; no one ever asked, and I never

explained to anyone.

A. Well, do you think Personnel is so stupid that it never would dig this

up and would not find out?

B. I absolutely do not think that they know about it at all.

A. You do not think that anyone checked on your service ((and on)) when

this incident occurred?

B. Understand - my work in GRU began when I completed the Institute,

and they opened the file on me from that time.

A. That is understandable.

B. That is ... just a minute... from that moment ...

of my first job,

my first job, they opened a file on me.

They took me from the

reserve

...

When I graduated from the second course, I was given the rank of

second lieutenant in the reserve.

They took me from the reserve to active duty, and they opened the

file

on me; that is all.

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A. When you came into the GRU, did they accept you without your going

through the Medical Commission?

B. I went through t he Commission, but no one asked me.

They examined me; so what -- was my hand deformed?

No.

They asked if I had been at the front.

No.

Were you in battle?

No, I was not in battle.

That is all.

They saw my age; I could not have fought.

A. Well, if you really served in the Soviet Army or Navy, I think they

would not have examined you so simply, in the way you describe it.

B. Well, no.

I went through the Commission, through a number of doctors.

I had blood tests and X-rays.

No one asked me anything.

If I had had two fingers missing, say, then perhaps they would have

asked me.

Well ... two fingers missing

• . . .

A. Every doctor looks at the hands, and, of course, he would immediately

ask,

"What is this?"

B. Look here, I have other scars - look here; my finger was split

almost in half - no one asked about it.

A. Do you think it is possible to believe that it went to simply?

B. I do not know whether you can believe it.-- I am telling you how it was.

A. This is simply an "out".

B. I tell you I went through the Commission, and no one asked me.

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- A. You must know that there is a certain procedure in the KGB.

(XG) .

Everyone goes through the Commission - one hundred percent.

B. I told you that I did not go through the Commission.

Why?

Why?

Because the matter went through the top -- instructions were given

by Personnel, from the top.

It was not Personnel that selected me; it was not Personnel which

found

me.

You understand?

After that, I was

given

an "excused acceptance", if I can express

myself that way - excused;

it was unusual.

A. Well, what do you think happened after this "excused acceptance" --

later,

when KOBULOV was arrested?

B. The only thing I know

is what KOVSHUK and GORBATENKO told me --

that ROZHENKO went over to see GORBATENKO, Chief of the First

Department, and said, "You

remember, they accepted ((B's surname)).

This was on KOBULOV's instructions."

There was talk; what it was about, where they talked about it,

where

the question was decided - no one summoned me or spoke to me about it.

That ROZHENKO went over, I know from KOVSHUK and GORBATENKO.

Besides that when I began working in the First Department I spoke

about my work and also told GORBATENKO, Chief of the Department, how

it happened that I had landed in this job.

I told him just as I have told you how it happened.

A. Well, if you had told it like this to BORBATENKO, he would believe it,

but if you told it to ROZHENKO like that he would not believe it.

B. I tell you that neither the case officer no ROZHENKO asked me; no

one asked me how do you know KOBULOV.

Where do you know him from?

Why did you ask KOBULOV?

No one asked a word.

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A. This is not the question I am asking.

B. No; I am saying that no one asked me.

Please understand -- ROZHENKO could not ask such a question, because

the instructions were

from KOBULOV ....

How it

was there, I do not know;

he probably looked at the name -

"Who is he, this ((B's surname)) ; oh -- ((B's surname)); his son

is a Minister;

well, then

everything is clear;

why did KOBULOV

telephone? -- it means that ((B's surname)) knows KOBULOV."

Well, somehow, there was a talk; that is all.

A. Even if one is the son of a minister and even if KOBULOV recommended

the son of the minister, that office does not work the way you

describe.

B. I am telling you the way it was.

It was another thing with ROZHENKO.

A. Of course, they could not refuse because of the higher-ups, but

nevertheless it is their duty to send you to the Medical Commission.

It does not matter whether the Commission will find you fit or nöt;.

the decision is made afterwards.

B. No one sent me to the Commission; nothing was done.

Further, I turned in a copy of my certificate of graduation from the

Institute; I gave it to SAKHAROV, Personnel officer of the Second

Directorate, when I already was working, working.

A. Well, we will return to this later.

It is enough for today.

I hope that you will think this over and give the right answers --

not those which you have given.

B. I only can say that I have given you only (?correct?) answers.

A. (In English.)) That's all.

B. Goodbye.

A. Goodbye.

((End of A/B Session, 28 July 1965))

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((Beginning of A/B Session, 29 July

1965))

A. Well, where shall we begin today?

B. I am at your disposal; the questions are yours.

A. Let us go back to that first time when you completed the anketa,

to start work in the MVD.

B. I have thought about this question, and I cannot tell you for sure

I completed the anketa and turned it in to the case officer from

ROZHENKO's section or... or I completed the anketa when I came in on

the second day after I spolse with SHUBNYAKOV.

Or, the

personnel man, of the Second Chief Directorate, SAKHAROV, gave

it

to me.

But I definitely remember completing both the anketa and two auto-

biographies at home.

A. The first question

is - why two copies;

why not one?

B. Two copies, two copies.

A. They did not have such a procedure then.

B. Absolutely - two copies.

A. You said that there were four or six pages to the anketa; that, too,

is not true:

B. It is absolutely true;

I do not remember whether it was four or six.

A. Not four, and not six.

B. Look - one, two, three, four -- I want to say sheets;

Three or four sheets; not more.

that is all.

A. The last time, you spoke about pages, and this time you are talking

about sheets; there is a difference between pages and sheets.

B. A page, a page -- it is one side;

on the other side of the sheet is

another page.

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A.

The same as in a book -- one, two, three, four.

B. Well, that is what I am telling you - as I told you last time; four

pages or six pages, I do not remember.

A. For your information, it was neither four nor six.

How many?

You should know, if you really completed this anketa, especially since

you said that you completed it several times when you came in and after

that.

Well, did you recall what the anketa is called?

B. No; anketa.

A. Well, what is written on the first page of the anketa?

B. The first page is like a book.

A. Presume that this is the anketa ((A hands a sheet of paper to B.)).

B. ((Attempts to show where the heading is placed on the form:))

This

is the anketa; yes...here, on the top, is written, "Anketa"....

Here is an empty space.

Then, there is a ruled space; on the left side, questions; on the

right side, answers.

A. What is the anketa called?

B. Simply "Anketa".

At the top, there is printed, in small letters, "Form 26" or

"21" --

I do not remember.

A. What else is printed on it?

B. Nothing more.

A. Explain to me - you worked for many years in the Second Chief

Directorate - when they recruit an agent, a Soviet citizen, any

citizen, what kind of anketa do they give him to fill out?

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B. I never gave one to an agent; I myself recruited agents.

I never gave them an anketa to complete;

I completed the anketa

myself.

You yourself complete the anketa on a recruited agent.

A. What kind of anketa?

What is it meant for?

B. I will tell you right now; this, I remember.

There are two sheets; four pages... two sheets

... yes, it is

two sheets.

A. ((Long pause.)) Well, what is it for???

You yourself recruited them, you yourself completed it.

Please - tell me.

B. On the first sheet there is a place for photos;

'in the upper right-

hand corner, there is a square for the photo.

"Ankets", then, for a "resident", "agent" -- you underline the

appropriate designation. ((Long pause.))

A. What —- is it so hard to describe?

You recruited, you completed them, and you should know.

B. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember.

Usually, you put in the surname, first name, patronymic (XG); when

you have filled in the anketa, you receive a folder for the personal

file.

A. I am not asking you about the folder;

we will come back to it.

B. Why am I telling you this?

On the folder, there is the number of the personal file (XG).

A. You said the anketa has four pages;

tell me about this anketa;

personal file folder is something else -- we will talk about it.

the

B. The anketa for an agent is completed after he has been registered, and

he is registered after he has been recruited, after the recruitment.

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The first report is for the recruitment, the second part, on the

recruitment, and at the end of the report you ask for permission to

include him in the active agent network of the Second Chiet

Directorate.

Only then do we complete the anketa.

A. We began talking about the anketa.

What is the anketa?

You told me that there are four sides, that in the right corner there

is a place for a photo.

What is this anketa called?

Again, we return to this question.

You were not able to tell me what the anketa ((for KGB employees)) is

called...•

•B. And I cannot name this, either...

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. Well, if a man has worked there for ll years, he must have had no

less than 50 agents ....

B. If not more, if not more.

A. More.

B. More.

A. And if, as you said, they themselves do not complete the anketa, then

you probably filled out no less than 50 anketas, and you must know

this Anketa.

B.

Well, part of these I did not fill out, because some of the agents

I received already had been recruited.

A. Well, anyway, you looked at their files.

B. (2-3G) .

SECRET

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A. Well, tell about these anketas.

You were working, you filled them out, you had agents, you had their

personal files; what is the anketa?

B. I cannot tell you, I cannot tell you by heart, I cannot.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

Here is the anketa; in the right-hand corner, the photo.

It is underlined - whom the file represents: "resident", "agent";

at the same time, you put in the number of the file, which you already

know.

Then you write

in the pseudonym; then, the surname, first name and

patronymic;

the date and place of birth; nationality;

education

....

What else is there?

That is all for the first page

..*

Residence

... по, по,

no, no

I remember - the residence comes

later.

Now, on

the opposite side ... ((Long pause.)) on the first page

...

the opposite

side of

the first sheet ... on the second page

..

on

on

the

opposite

side ((Appears nervous.))... by whom recruited?

Then you write in whether he was recruited on compromising materials

or on

an ideological basis;

then you add when he was recruited

....

Then

.. second sheet, third page …..

oh, yes, yes -- on the first, the

very first page, the place of work

... I already told that ....

So ... well, here, I do not remember what was on

top, but on the

bottom -- about his relatives ... about the agent's relatives, briefly,

about them -- surname, first name, patronymic, date of birth, pläce of

work, address, telephone; that is all -- I do not remember more.

A. The only conclusion I can draw

from your description of the anketa is

that a man who has worked there for ll years should not describe this

anketa

only in general terms;

even if, as you say, you have a poor

memory, after working ll years there, you are supposed to know

at

least ninety percent of this anketa as well as you know your own

five fingers.

SECRET

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B. I told you about eighty - ninety percent.

A. You even cannot give a superficial description of it - what it is

called, etc.

B. I told you - anketa for a resident or agent.

A. I think that this is not the talk of a man who has worked there for

11 years and who had quite a number of agents, residents, informants,

and other employees - butwho knows the documents very poorly.

Let us go back again to the anketa of the Personnel file.

Can you still not tell me what it was called - the one you filled

out on yourself?

B. Simply anketa, simply anketa.

A. Are you sure you filled out such an anketa?

B. The anketa, yes.

A. And did you fill it out?

B. Yes, yes.

A. How does it happen that ((you do not know that)) it does not have

four or six pages, and that it is not called simply "anketa"?

B. I do not know how it happens.

I am telling you what I remember.

You ask me, and I am answering you.

A. Consider - a counterintelligence man cannot just simply say that he

does not remember.

He has worked for ll years -- this is his bread and butter; it is

his daily work.

Every day he bumps up against these anketas; every day -- he cannot

avoid them.

Even if you do not see the agent, you go through his personal file;

if you do not go through his file, then you go to the Archive to take

a 100k.

You just cannot get around them.

SECRET

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B. You are absolutely right..

Where, this, is your knowledge regarding this; why has your

knowledge of them evaporated so quickly?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Well, in regard to the anketa of the employee which you said you

completed, I - on

the basis of your reply - conclude that you have

not the slightest idea about this anketa.

What else besides this anketa did you complete when entering on duty

with the KGB?

All of the employees fill it out.

B. I told you that I completed an anketa -- two copies -- and that I

made two copies of the autobiography, and I turned in some photos.

Then it was necessary to sign the secrecy agreement, regarding state

and military secrets, which was given me by SAKHOROv.

A. Well, what was this secrecy agreement?

What was it called?

B. I do not remember; there was only one sheet.

A. What was printed on it?

B. "I

_" -- here you put your surname, name and patronymic;

the rest is printed; you sign and date it.

A. What does it require of you?

B. It requires one to safeguard military secrets, and if one breaks it

he will be punished under Soviet law,

etc. (2G).

A. Well ....

B. The secrecy agreement (podpiska).

A. What was it called?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

SECRET

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A. What is the difference between this sheet and the one that agents

whom you recruited sign?

B. Well ... an agent... it depends on what is decided -- what kind of

person he is; sometimes you take a raspiska or a (?podpiska?) from

the agent.

A.

Well, let us say, you have taken it…..

B. Well, you have taken it; you tell the agent

...you do not dictate

the podpiska to him ...

"Wait one minute;

I will tell you, and you will

write it"....

Then you tell him "You must write such a râspiska, podpiska, that

'I, such and such

-- surname, first name and patronymic - freely

wish to cooperate with the organs of the KGB; I promise to safeguard"..

A. But what if it is not voluntary, but "voluntary under pressure"?

B. Well, let him write "voluntarily" ((Laughs.))

You understand, it is already

... .

Usually, he writes, "I volunteer to cooperate".

If he has been recruited on compromising materials, you have put him

in such a position that he must agree.

A. That is right.

But there are those who do not agree.

B. Well, it has happened that a recruitment has not taken place.

A. Well, there are. those who agree and sign in the end;

how is this

handled?

B. To my thinking, here this is not voluntary consent, of course.

In such a case ....

Perhaps he can write that "I, so-and-so, involuntarily give my

consent to cooperate."

A. Again, let us return to the secrecy agreement which you signed --

what is it called - the one about not divulging secrets

- what

was it called?

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B. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. I am sure you must have signed it several times during your 1l years

of work.

B. Yes, I know -- two or three times.

A. What was the reason for signing it two or three times?

B. Well, I do not know, I do not know.

A. You signed it two or three times ....

B. Not only I, but everyone, everyone.

A. Particularly the first time -- when you started working for the MVD --

you had to sign it.

What was this sheet of paper called, and what was printed

on it?

B. I told you what it contained.

A. You said practically nothing.

B. Well, that "I, such and such - surname, first name and patronymic:

((B's full name)) ...."; then comes the printed text; then "I pledge

to safeguard state and military secrets."

A. Approximately when did you sign it?

B. When I had begun to work; I already had begun working.

A. What -- after a year?

B. No - after a few days; perhaps, when I was handing in the anketas.

I signed it in SAKHAROV's office.

A. What you told me about swearing not to divulge secrets is wrong.

There was no such document as you describe it; and the sheet did

not say what you describe.

B. I am giving you the idea behind it.

SECRET

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A. It is not a matter of the thought of it; you started out, "I,

((B's surname)), so-and-so ..."

-- that is not what it says.

B. Well, there is a blank, and you fill in your name.

A. But not that way.

B. To my thinking, I signed this more than one time;

at one time, all

of the departments completed this form.

A. Perhaps you signed it, but not the way you describe it.

The Personnel Department does not work the way you say.

I cannot understand in any way where the bones lie hidden -- if you

were there, you must know;

if you were not, then say so.

B. I told you.

I would tell you, and we would not have such long discussions.

A. What keeps you from saying?

B. Nothing is holding me back - I am telling you the way it was.

A. Well, I ask you what anketa you completed when you were coming in --

you do not know the name of the anketa; you do not describe it

properly; you do not give the proper dimensions, etc.

If you

made small errors I absolutely would not pay attention to them,

but you are talking about such immeasurably different things.

What you say about the anketa you filled out and the anketa you gave

to agents to complete all adds up to one thing - you were not there,

and you do not know.

B. Well, it looks that way to you.

A. That is the way ((it seems)), not only to me, but to everyone; in

all of the discussions, you cannot answer the simplest questions.

B.

(Angrily)) Very well, you can tell me that I am not at all

((B's surname)), that I am not from Russia, but from Uruguay.

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A. Perhaps, perhaps; because that is the way it comes out.

You say that you worked there for 1l years, but you do not know what

the anketa which agents complete is called; you said you had business

during the ll years with more than 50 agents.

B. Well, I had business with agents, with hundreds of them.

A. Then you should know.

B. Never in my life did I work that way -- maybe I did not do anything

over there, but I never worked like that in my life.

Would I sit down and say, "Ah….. how is this form written up?

What

is in

the anketa?"

A. You did not have to study it.

( (XG;

A and B speak at the same time.))

B. The real things ... when one starts to work.

Ninety percent of the KGB employees work that way.

Nothing good in them; they only sit and study forms, but they are

working.

Well, maybe I am a strange person... maybe something else is wrong

with me.

( (XG;

A and B speak at the same time.))

Alright, maybe I am starnge ... I say, maybe; I do not know; I

do not remember.

A. How is it that a man starts working for the MVD, signs a statement,

((but)) does not know what it is called and what it says?

B. What does it say? I gave you the idea of it: to safeguard state and

military secrets; one is warned against divulging ...

Violations

.. one must be punished according to Soviet law.

SECRET

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A. Not true;

that is not correct.

Up to 1953, in 1953, and after 1953, there were certain papers

which were signed by employees upon entering MVD and those who

were working there; and I want you to tell me what you signed.

What you told me absolutely is not correct.

If you know, tell me; what you told me does not fit.

B. I know nothing more.

A.

Well, further..

what else did you fill out?

B. I filled out nothing more.

A. There

is something else you must complete;

you cannot avoid it.

( (Pause.))

There is

something else that

is filled out, all

..

absolutely

everyone has

to fill it out - whoever works in the

MVD or whoever comes

to work there.

B. I do not know.

A. Well, I will give you a leading question -- it is filled out not

only

in the KGB, but also in the MVD, in the Militia, and in the

MOOP at the present time ... at that time, in the MVD, MGB, Militia and

also many other organizations.

You cannot get around this in any way, because it is a document which

is confirmed by the CPSU Central Committee -- every man must complete

it, it, although it is of no special significance for the MVD or the KGB.

B. I do not know.

A. Well, in the nature of your work - as I think over ((your)) 1l years

you probably saw Personnel files on employees who had been released?

an one

B. Yes.

A. Did you personally see the Personnel files on the employees?

B. ((Speaks with uncertainty.))

I saw;

I saw.

SECRET

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A. Well, at least we can proceed from here.

When you opened the file, it is there; and you personally filled

it out - maybe one time, maybe two times, probably a couple times

over the ll years, you completed this form.

It is

also an anketa, but it is not called "Anketa."

I do not know what other kind of leading question I can give you.

B.

Where you worked before

-- you show this on the anketa.

... Your service record.

I do not know, I do not know.

On the next to last sheet is indicated your whole, whole service

record, since completion of the institute.

A. For your information, that which you are thinking about now and

what

you

say

is

not on the next to last page.

B. On the next to last page -- I remember this absolutely accurately.

On the last page

... ah

... the elected positions are indicated --

elections as deputy, medals, inventions.

But the next to last page concerned service.

A. The last page contains nothing; it is blank.

В. No, по, по;

the last page asks if you have been elected - for example,

as a deputy, a judge - have you invented anything, have you any

scientific works, awards, and the signature comes on the last page.

A. That is not the way it is.

B. It is absolutely right - I remember this.

A. Well, again - what other anketa had to be completed?

What was it called?

B. I cannot say; I do not know; I cannot say;

I do not remember.

What document you have in mind I do not know.

You say it is not the anketa -- I do not know what it is.

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A. Well, it is not called a anketa, but in general, it too is an anketa;

but it is not called an "Anketa" •

There are even two other documents in the Personnel file.

We will return to them, later.

The one we are talking about is similar in questions to the "Anketa".

((Pause.)) Really, I seriously

...

B. And I am serious;

I know you are not kidding;

I understand you.

((Pause.)) I do not remember; I do not know.

((Long pause.)) I do not know.

A. Did you ever complete

or sign a service record (posluzhnoy spisok)?

B. I myself never filled one out; this is Personnel's business.

I only did, as told

you, on

the last, the next to lastopage, indicated

all my employment from 1945 to 1950.

No -- I even indicated time spent at high school;

but I do not

remember the number of the school.

For 1945 to 1950, I indicated the Institute and then, the places where

I worked: Sovetskaya Gavan -- Intelligence of the 7th Fleet;

in the

Baltic, Sovetsk.

A. I do not want this - we already have passed this stage - you know

nothing

about the anketa.

And I do not think we need return to it until you tell me what it is

about, what it is called, and if you really filled it out.

If you did, you must know.

If you cannot tell me, you never completed it and never saw it, and.

you never were in the MVD.

Now, we are talking about the service record.

What did you hear about it, and what is it?

B. I never completed a service record.

This is a document for officers of the Army, the MGB, or the MVD;

it is completed by Personnel men.

A. I asked you if you completed it and signed it.

B. I did not complete it, I did not complete it.

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A. You did not fill it in, but you must sign it.

B. I signed this service record once, one time, when the time was

counted up for all employment

--they let you see it.

No, I did not complete it;

I signed it once.

A. Well, what is this document for?

B. It indicates the places of service, including military.

A. What part of the officer's Personnel file is it?.

B. This document is needed for the Personnel file, to record the

service, for rank.

A. That is right; I am telling you - that is right.

B. Well, I tell you I never completed it, but one time I signed it;

signed it once in 1958 or 1957.

It indicates your transfers and the positions, not only where you

served, but, for instance,

it indicates from such-and-such a year a

case officer, from such-and-such a year, a senior case officer,.

from

such-and-such a section to such-and-such a department.

A. If you know this, why do you not know the anketa?

B. Well, I do not know; I am telling you what I remember.

A. If you remembered this, why did you not remember about the anketa?

What you tell me is written on the next to the last page and on this

or that page -- this is not correct, absolutely not correct.

B. It is absolutely correct; I am

ready to argue with you at any length,

because I remember that.

A. I do not want to argue.

B. I do not remember where, I am telling you as

I remember - on the

next to last page, you show all places of work.

SECRET

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A. This is not the next to last page, but in the middle of the anketa.

You do not know the size of the anketa, and I do not intend telling you.

B. You do not have to tell.

I remember - it is on the next to last page.

But here you do not show your positions as you do in the service

record.

A. Well, if there was such a section in the anketa, what was this

section called?

Again you were wrong when you said that the position is not indicated

there.

There the positions are indicated exactly, and there is a special

column for this.

B. Yes, the position is show, because I wrote, for example - translator,

Intelligence, 7th Navy Fleet; city, Sovetskaya Gavan.

A. Well, do not give me now some confirmation that you were a translator.

We will return to this question.

Further - let us lay aside the matter of the service record.

Perhaps you signed it, just so ....

But, again, it is not understandable why it took the MVD three or

four years to have you sign it.

For your information, the service record is written up on a newly

accepted officer, no matter where he came from -- from military

intelligence or the GRU - or whether he is a military officer or not,

as soon as the order on his acceptance

in

the organs of the MVD is

signed.

B. Excuse me;

perhaps I can add something and correct you.

A. Please, please.

SECRET

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B. Perhaps you have something else in mind here.

Look - the Second Chief Directorate;

there is their own Personnel

officer

This Personnel officer does not have the files on all of the employees

in the Second Chief Directorate;

they are in Central Personnel.

This Personnel officer, from the moment

of the

new

officer's

acceptance

as

an employee, opens

personal record card (lichnaya

uchetnaya

kartochka)

as

a substitute for

the service record..

A. I know what kind of card it is and where they keep

it.

B. The Personnel officer keeps it, from the moment of his acceptance,

because the Personnel officer does not have the Personnel file;

but

the service record, I signed only one time -- I do not know by whom

it was filled

out, by Central Personnel or by SAKHAROV.

At the end of this service record, it states that as of such and such

a date, you have so many years, months and days of service.

A. My question was -- why did it take the MVD four years ....

B. I do not know;

I cannot say; I do not remember;

I do not know.

A. According to the regulations - and every Personnel officer knows

this - the service record is filled out as soon

as the order ((of

acceptance)) is

signed;

well, maybe, two

or three days will pass

((before this is done)); in any case, not more than a week.

In this service record, the order number is recorded, as well as is

the position and office assignment.

B. Well, it is probable that the Personnel officer put it there right

away ....

A. In the service record.

B. This is done by the Personnel officer, never by the employee himself.

((XG; A and B

speak at the same time.))

I saw it the first time

... maybe it was ... it was ... this service

record

... in the Personnel file in the GRU ... in the Personnel file

... it was.

SECRET

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A. That is another service record; there is a big difference.

B. No, no; I am saying that there was a service record there.

From the beginning, probably ..

I saw it only one time; they showed it to me, not with the Personnel

file, but separately, as was done with all the employees.

A. Please

..•

do not get upset.

B. No, I am just telling you how it was.

A. Because, as soon as the order is signed to employ you, the service

record is opened, and the employee is invited

over.

If he was in

the GRU

or was

simply an Army officer, this is checked

against the old

service record to find out whether it all has been

filled

out correctly, day by day, so that there are no errors.

Then, a new service record is started on the employee.

He signs it, and perhaps he will never

see it again.

B. Well, one time ... but not right away.

A. No one is saying that this is done on the second day

....

B. I already was working in the Seventh Department

A. Let us leave the service record.

What other anketa is there -- it is not called "Anketa", but something

else; everyone, one-hundred percent, fills out this anketa?...

B. I do not know.

A. ... Working in the organs ....

You know, when you told me about signing the secrecy agreement, etc

...

B. Yes.

A. The way you described its format, it seemed as if you were not a

staffer, but an agent; for agents, this format begins approximately

they way you described it; but, for staffers ....

B. Well, there was no format for agents

-- neither printed nor typed;

agent wrote it himself, in his own handwriting.

SECRET

the

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A. I did not say whether it was printed or not;

I simply said that it

was the same format.

B. Two absolutely different things ....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. Well, approximately resembling ((the format for)) an agent.

B. The agent has a completely different agreement - that he voluntarily

has agreed to cooperate with the organs of the KGB or MVD and that

for conspiracy's sake he has such and such a pseudonym, and he will

sign his reports with it.

A. Tell me what you signed when you came to work for the MVD.

B.

I told you.

A. You told me nothing - you only said nonsense.

B. Well, you may accept my explanation or not.

I cannot lie to you or think up something.

I told you what the format was and the thought behind it;

I do not

remember it word for word.

One printed sheet....

You write in your surname, first name, patronymic, and then the

rest is printed -- "I swear to guard the state and military secrets,

and if I violate this, I will be punished under Soviet law'....

A. That is not right.

B. ... And you sign it.

A. It is not right ((about the words)), "I will be punished under Soviet

law" -- such an agreement has not been enforced since 1940.

B. No

...well well... I am telling you the thought, the thought.

A .

If you worked there, then you should know this very well.

SECRET

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B. Well ... responsible according to Soviet law, for divulging state

and military secrets.

The words "To be punished (karat'sya)" should be thrown out.

A. Well, anyway, what other anketa is there?

B. I do not know.

A.

Did you ever

see or do you know about the Spravka Form No. 1?

B.

No;

I do not know, I do not know.

A. And you never had anything to do with it?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. And you never saw such a spravka?

B. (2-3G)

I said that I did not see it.

A. Well, every MVD employee who has worked even a few months knows

precisely what the Spraka Form No. 1 is;

no explanations are

required at all ....

B. I do not know; I cannot

→...

A. !? And you should know about it very well.

Especially if you had subordinates and if you were deputy chief of

section, chief of section, or higher.

Whenever you transfer them or promote them you were supposed to see

it and not

just one time, but a hundred times.

B. Well, someone is transferred, promoted

...

A. If you

are promoted, for example, your case officer, PETROV, to

senior

case officer, it could not be done without the chief of section.

B. But, of course, the chief of section will write ....

A. Well, if you were a chief of section, a deputy chief of department,

chief of department, etc., you always see Spravka Form No. 1.

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B. Oh - this is what you have in mind: Form No. 1.

A. Or, for example, you recommended

...

B. I know, I know.

When someone is promoted in position or rank - I know this document;

I know it;

I know

it -- Form No. 1.

A. That is what the Spravka is called --"Form No. 1."

And for your information, this spravka has nothing to do with rank,

has almost nothing to do with rank.

B. No; it also is the form

for rank.

Here, the point is ... I will tell you right now: you yourself do not

even complete the first section (chast').

You write some sort of evaluation (kharakteristika); for example --

"Comrade PETROV has been working in the Seventh Department for such

and such a time; he is

a case officer;

he has shown himself to be

capable in performance of his work; he is a good agent handler

(agenturist); he is on good terms with his subordinates;

he has taken

an active part in operations against foreigners

...."

Then, at the end, you give the conclusion that he is qualified for

promotion to the position of senior case officer.

This will be signed by the chief of the department - or, in his

absence, the deputy chief - and it is approved by the chief of the

directorate.

Then,

it goes to Personnel for the order.

A. You already have told about this in part.

B. Personnel fills

out the first page themselves; for example, SAKHAROV

did this, but not the Personnel

group headed

by KUDREV does

it.

You write only the evaluation; the rest of it is done by Personnel.

A11

the necessary

information is taken

from Personnel files, or

the

Personnel officer takes it from the Personnel card (uchetnaya Kartochka)

A. We will not talk about how it is written up,

because you are not

telling it correctly and I do not even want to hear it.

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B. I am telling you how I did it, how it actually was.

A. Did you ever complete it yourself?

B. Yes, I myself filled it in.

A. Well, please, tell me what it is for.

You described the second side about right, a part of it, one tenth

of it.

If you completed it yourself, please -- continue.

B. I told you -- the first page: the surname, first name, patronymic,

rank, date of birth;

length of time in grade and position, such

information....

A .

What else?

All documents require the information you mentioned.

B. Party affiliation

A. Well, this again is for everyone....

B. Well,

on the second sheet, you give a brief evaluation (kharaktristika)

of him

t...

well, it is not an evaluation (kharaktristika) ...

A. How many pages does this spravka have?

B. ((Long pause.)) Just the first and second sides.

Thatsis all.

A. On the first side, you said biographic data;

what else?

B. That is, all - that is the first page.

A. Wrong - well, what is there on the second side besides what you

said -- besides the recommendation for assignment.

HH 53216

B. There is a suggestion for assignment (kharaktristika) which gives

a description of this case officer; it is signed by the chief of

the department.

Then, further down, ((is a signature line)) specially for the chief --

either for the deputy chief of chief of the directorate, who gives

the approval.

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A. Well, my conclusion is that you know nothing about Spravka No. 1.

((Long pause.)) Well, what other anketa is there?

I am returning to the old question.

There is still another anketa which the employee himself completes.

The Personnel file is not complete without it.

Although the anketa is not needed very much by the KGB, nevertheless

it is provided for by the Central Committee of the CPSU, and everyone

completes it.

And they complete it not only in the KGB, but also in all

government

institutions.

B. ((Long pause.)) No, I absolutely do not remember.

A. It particularly relates to the Komsomol' and Communist Party members.

Some who are not Komsomol or Commúnist Party members also fill it out;

for example, specialists.

Of course, they

do not fill it out in factories,

because there are

no Personnel files there.

B. Well, yes

((Long pause.)) I do not know.

A. I can only make the quick conclusion that you cannot confirm that you

were an employee, not only of the Second Chief Directorate, but in

general - an employee of the MVD because you do not know the simplist

things which a simple officer of the organs should know.

I am not dwelling on petty details.

B. You are dwelling only on petty details.

I do not know where you get these questions;

these are only petty

details.

• 1

A. From the KGB;

that is where I was trained.

B. Honest to God, you must have worked in Personnel for 20 years.

A. Well, I was not just in Personnel, but we will return to this.

B. Well, you had to have worked in Personnel for some time, if you ask

for such details.

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A. I think you know better.

B. I do not know.

A. I think you know very well.

B. If you give me your name ....

A. We will talk about this later, when we find

maybe we will have a drink to our health.

Now, show do you explain ....

common language;

B. I do not know how to explain;

what I remember, I tell you;

I am

trying

....

A. If one considers only that you could not answer my most elementary

questions, your approach, your processing, and your confusion

of one

anketa with another - the one about divulging ((secrets)) -- only

one conclusion can be made:

that you did not only not work in the

Second Chief Directorate, but you did not work

in

the organs.

B. Then, according to what you think, I did not work anywhere.

Why?

Because you said that this ((other)) anketa, this paper ((is completed))

in civilian organizations by Komsomol members and Communists.

A. Yes.

B. ... And even by some non-Party members, those with higher education.

Then, in general, I did not work anywhere.

A. My question is - where were you?

B. Where was I?

What did I do?

A. That is my question:

B. Honestly, I told you the first time that you have a great sense of

humor.

We have arrived at the point where I did not work anywhere;

then,

where was I?

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A. Not there; you did not work there.

B. Yes, I did not work anywhere, not even in civilian jobs; nowhere.

A. To my thinking, it is possible; there are such things; perhaps you

did not work even in a civilian job.

B. Well, I really did not work anywhere in civilian jobs.

A. Yes, there are some jobs in which a person may be listed, but does

not work.

Do you understand?

B. That is a good job; he is listed, but does not work anywhere.

A. Listed, but does not work.

B.

That is good work; good pay; very good work.

A. Of course, the pay is always good; it is always good, by the way;

and

it is not

a bad life for the time being;

then, as they say, luck findinge

changes.

B. I do not know what other document you have in mind;

I do not remember.

A. Well, we are now talking

in general.

B. I have told you that I am trying to ....

((B moves forward to desk, trying to read A's notes.))

A. ... I see that you are trying — to read my notes -- but there is

nothing written here, except what you have said.

I am not making any notes other than what you have said.

B. What, what ((As if he does not understand))?

A. I am saying, do not l00k here; if you wish, I will read it to you.

B. Well, I cannot see it.

Even if you show it to me, I cannot see what is written there.

A. Is your eyesight poor?

B. Yes, yes.

A.

What happened?

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B. I had ((poor eyesight)).

I wore glasses at the theater, at the movies, for driving an automobile;

I can read a document, but at this distance I cannot see.

Now, being here, I am ...

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. Well, I am not writing anything here.

I am writing down just what you say.

B.

Excuse me; you have made a great mistake.

I did not for one part of a second have the slightest thought of

reading or looking at what you have written down.

A. I do not have any secrets at all here;

absolutely none at all.

В. No, по, по;

I told you about my eyes.

A. Can you give me an example - you worked there for ll years -- of

reading the Personnel file of

an employee who had been released, or of

employees who became agents,

or under some other circumstances.

B. So,

SO

...

A. Did you ever read or see the Personnel file of an MVD employee?

B. Of course, I looked into them.

Sometimes the employees would bring them.

When I was working in later years in the Seventh Department, I

supervised three sections

...

For example, SUKHOTSKIY, from the Hotels Section, came

. . ..

Or, for example, I selected a resident ....

For example, TOPESHKO, from the Fourteenth Department of the PGU

....

Well, I wanted to put him in the "National" Hotel; and he really did

work there for a few months

...

Or, something else

-....

Maybe the Personnel

file, maybe the summary (spravka) from the

Personnel file

A. You

say the Personnel file and even wrote a summary

....

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B. I did not write it;

an employee did.

A. An employee, but nevertheless you saw the file.

Even if you did not write it out yourself, you could say ten times

more about the Personnel file than what you have said.

I am not asking you for a completely detailed description, but only

about those documents which you must know as an employee; not only

as a chief of section, but as any common employee - because without

a knowledge of them, one cannot work.

But you cannot explain the simplest things to me;

and I really

cannot believe that you were there and worked there.

B. I do not know, I do not know what kind of document you have in mind.

I saw a Personnel file, and ....

A. Everyone has seen the document about which we spoke.

Your knowledge is so

small, so slight, that the lowest agent of the

KGB, a seksot, knows more than you know.

That is the question - because this poor seksot also fills in anketas.

B. For what?

For whom?

For Personnel files?

A. Well, you tell me why.

B. For the personal files of an agent?

A. You tell me why - because that poor seksot knows more about the KGB

or the MVD than you.

That is my question -- where were you?

And what did you do?

You do not even know the ABC's.

B. I told you where I was and what I did.

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A. That is not an answer -- "I told you," "I told you".

You have said much, but it does not fit.

((Pause.)) Well, I will give you some time to think about it.

We will take a break for lunch.

I hope that you will tell me something reasonable.

B.

Besides what I have said, I cannot say anything more which is

reasonable in reply to your questions - not because I do not want

to, but because I do not know.

A.. You cannot answer elementary questions;

how can I

go more deeply

into those anketas, itc.?

Well, do not get upset; have a good lunch;

((In English.)) Good appetite.

B. ((In English.)) Thank you very much.

You are so kind;

thank

you very much.

( (LUNCH BREAK))

A. ((In English.)) Well, where are we now?

B. (2G) I thought, "Such questions!"

A man says from the first day that he has come to help clear up

things; you are not helping me to clear up things - you are

dragging me to the bottom.

Just the contrary.

"To clean up".

I was just thinking about what we just finished.

What other kind of documents can there be?

One must give a copy of the birth certificate, a copy of the diploma,

and a certificate (spravka) from the place of residence.

A. Well, that is right.

I do not deny it.

B. Well, what other kind of documents are there?

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A. These are general - everyone presents them; not only in KGB, but

in so many other institutions.

B. Well, then

...

A. Well, I say, if one has a fourth grade education, no one will ask

for his diploma.

B. Well, he will give proof if he finished high school.

Of course, if he only finished the fourth grade he will not present

any documents.

They say that SHUBNYAKOV went through four grades only.

A. Well, they say he is not a bad man.

B. And a clear head.

A. I do not deny it - what is true, is true.

When you came out of the Navy, what kind of a document did you have --

do you remember?

B. I just had a leave document and my officer's identification; that

was all.

A. What did you do with the officer's identification?

B. I turned it in; I gave it to SAKHAROV when I came on duty; they

kept it.

A. They kept it.

B. They did not return anything.

A. And the leave certificate -- where did it go?

B. It did not go anywhere.

I probably destroyed it.

A. Well, we have talked quite a bit about the anketa; let us talk

about still another question -- as far as I know, before you went on

duty in the organs of the MVD, you were married?

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B. Right.

A. What information did you give - or what did the MVD ask you --

about your former wife?

B: I wrote about her; I listed her; I wrote I had been married; I

gave the information - surname, first name, patronymic - about my

wife;

all information.

A.

What discussion was there on this subject -- about your first wife --

in Personnel of the MVD or with the chiefs of the Second Chief

Directorate?

B. There was

none; there was absolutely none, with the chiefs.

But I

told Personnel how it was - that I had lived with her for

short period of time, that I had been divorced from her in 1952.

A. Was there anything

in the anketa?

B. Do you have in mind whether or not I had a certificate of divorce?

I did not

have one, because it the dissolution of the marriage --

was indicated

by stamp in the officer's identification.

A. If it was

stamped

in your officer's identification

.....

B. In the officer's identification, at the end.

A. But some one has to have the certificate of divorce.

B. She likely has it; I did not need it.

They stamped it immediately in my officer's identification, and that

was enough.

A. Were you yourself not interested in having evidence of the divorce?

On what basis did they record it in your officer's identification?

On the basis of some document ....

B. Well, there was the decision of the City Court; furthermore, the

court itself sent notification to deduct alimony from my pay.

I never received my notification.

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A. You mean to say that you received nothing at all?

B. Absolutely nothing.

It was stamped in my officer's identification, about the

dissolution of the marriage.

A. Where is the certificate on the dissolution of the marriage itself?

Why did you not have it?

B. It is not a certificate; it is a court judgement.

I did not have, and I did not need it.

It was enough for me to have the divorce recorded in my officer's

identification.

A. Anyone can write in his officer's identification.

B. Well, no;

it is an official stamp; it is not written in by hand --

it is a stamp, with a seal and a signature.

A .

Who stamps the book?

B. The book was stamped by the ZAGs office, not by the court, but by

the ZAGS.

Well, then I had something in hand.

You are right - I submitted it, and they put in the stamp, in the

ZAGS office.

A. Well, if ZAGS stamped it, on what basis did they do so?

B. On the basis of a piece of paper, of course; they do not just

simply put it in.

A. This piece of paper, of course, has a name, does it not?

B. I do not remember.

A. Well, if you got a divorce, you must know.

B. But I do not remember (?How was it?!?)

A. Then, how was it?

B. Well, it was the judgement of the court, the court judgement.

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A. The judgement of the court is one thing

....

B.

... An extract from the court judgement, which I gave to ZAGS, and

they put in the stamp.

That is all.

A. Well, this still is not all.

B.

Oh, yes, right, right;

I had to pay.

Well, I paid the court fees.

one minute - before they put in the stamp,

A.

That is not what I have in mind.

When they gave you the extract from the court judgement, you went

to ZAGS;

ZAGS likely gave you a piece of paper, which has its

own name.

B. They did not give me anything.

They stamped it - that the marriage had been dissolved, and that

is all; nothing more.

A. The stamp is put in by ZAGS, not only on the basis of the court

judgement; ZAGS provides something else also ....

B. ZAGS gives nothing.

A. Because the court decision still is not an official document.

B. The City Court decision is official; the extract has a seal.--

because the first court is a rayon court; it does not make a

decision -- its task simply is reconciliation

...'

A. Well, I am not talking about that.

B. ... And that is already an official decision.

A. But the decision of the court,

even with the seal, has to be

presented to the ZAGS.

B. Right.

A. To receive ....

B. So as to dissolve the marriage.

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They register the dissolution of the marriage.

A. Well, if the divorce really took place - we will return to this

later and talk about it - there is a procedure: a certificate is

issued on the dissolution of the marriage.

B. No, no; no certificate;

there was none.

A. What do you want me to do - show you a certificate of the

dissolution of a marriage?

B. No, you do not have to.

A. If they give it to everyone, then why did they not give you one?

B. They did not give me any certificate on the dissolution of the

marriage.

A. On the basis of the certificate, a notation can be made in the.

passport or they

can make a notation in the officer's identification.

There

is no

other document which is valid for this purpose.

B. You are confusing it with something else.

A. I am not confusing

it with anything.

We are talking about a certificate.

There is a certificate of birth, a certificate of death, and a

marriage certificate;

and there is the certificate of the dissolution

of a marriage.

B. Well, then, she received this certificate of dissolution of the

marriage.

A. It is given to both, because both parties are equal.

B: I did not have one, and I did not present it anywhere.

I only had the extract from the court decision.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. Without that document, they cannot put in the stamp; that is the

question.

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B.

The stamp was put in on the basis of the extract from the city

court; the stamp.

A. Well, let us put this aside.

The anketa requires you to list your former wives or husbands,

asking for their surnames, first names, patronymics, birth dates

and places, the address at the current time, and whether you maintain

contact.

What did you answer to this question when you were coming on duty?

What did you write about your first wife?

B. I can tell you what I remember.

"My former wife -- ((B's surname.)), Avgustina Konstantinovna."

I indicated that she had not changed her name then I indicated

where she lives.

I indicated that

actually we were separated in 1948, but legally we

were not divorced until 1952.

A. Well, did you tell the MVD about her father?

B. I said that he was a member of the Military Council, with ZHUKOV,

Lt. Gen. TELEGIN ... that in 1947 he was arrested

... for,

as far

as I had heard, according to an article of the Criminal Code, for

pillaging in Germany, but, actually, he was arrested because of

his association with ZHUKOV, when they were working on ZHUKOV; that

is all.

A. And what do you think - what would the Personnel Department or the

chiefs of the Second Chief Directorate….. how would they look upon

the fact that you married and lived with your wife for a year while

her father was imprisoned -- and then you left her . how did the

MVD react to this fact -- that the father of your first wile, a

member of the Military Council, a big man, whom they knew in the

Central Committee and everywhere, and then he was in jail... and

this was so from the day you came on duty in the organs ... and

more -- that you were paying alimony for child support -- how did

the MVD react to this?

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B. I do not know; I told them;

I told this first to the case officer,

and then I told it to the Personnel man, SAKHAROV; also, in

conversation, I told this to GORBATENKO, when we became acquainted --

I told him in detail; he could have known this from my Personnel

file, but anyway he talked to me personally.

A .

The second question - when you were completing the anketa, of course,

you wrote that your father was a Minister; how, then, did you answer

the question of the social origin of your parents?

B. "From the working class."

A. What did you write about the social origin of your mother?

B. I wrote that she was from the professional class (sluzhashchiy).

A. But, actually,

who was she?

B. ((Long pause.)) Well, why did I write "professional class"?

Because her father was an architect.

He was in the civilian field.

Oh, you have in mind the social origin?

"Nobility."

A. Well, you know, there is a column in the anketa, and

..

B. I wrote, "from the professional class."

A. The social origins of your parents - what did they do before the

Revolution?

B. Father was from the working class; before the Revolution, mother

was in the gimnazium.

A. And after the Revolution?

B. Likewise, after the Revolution she was studying, and then she

became a housewife.

A. Well, I am asking - there is a column

.. . .

B. I indicated "from the professional class".

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A. Well, we will say that the MVD ... well, maybe it was earlier, in

the GRU... they were checking and discovered that your mother's

social origins were with the nobility

....

B.

So

...

A. From the well-to-do class.

B. Yes, when grandfather was divorced, so

d... s0.

A. What effect did this have on your acceptance for work?

Did anyone talk to you?

B. I do not know;

no one asked me about it;

I never mentioned that

grandfather was of the nobility.

Well, you see

... even if they found out and they likely did -

then father's position would have smoothed it over.

A. Well, what do you think?

Someone must have asked

... as you said your grandfather was an

architect, was arrested somewhere, and was in prison ... well, as

you say, they must have dug it up, and I think they dug this up, too.

B. But he was rehabilitated before the death of STALIN, rehabilitated

before STALIN's death.

A. Well, we are talking about, as you said earlier ... he died in prison.

B. Yes, right.

A. What relation did this have, even if he had been rehabilitated --

you did not say earlier that he had been rehabilitated; this is the

first time I have heard this - what effect did this have on your

acceptance for work?

B. Absolutely none, because there was absolutely no discussion on this

subject.

I tell you, no one asked me anything;

this question, never.

I never was concerned with

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A.

But, according to logic, as an employee of counterintelligence --

even if your father occupied a high position - do you not think it

would be interesting

for the MVD and counterintelligence and for

Personnel to find out

about this and to speak with you?

B. Well, they did not speak with me.

Of course, I knew.

I saw him in my childhood,

when

I was

three

or

four years old;

maybe

I waw him several times.

Well, he did not live with the family;

he was not living with the

family when I was born; he was not living with the family when

mother was a girl.

A. Well, that is understood.

You said earlier that your mother received her education thanks only

to the grandfather because he was earning good money.

B. No, I did not say it like that - that she received her education ....

But what kind of education did she get?

She was studying in school, in the gimnazium.

Then, she had just begun studying in a gimnazium, and then the

Revolution began.

She was only

....

A. Well, you said more than that - you said that he even helped your

father at

the same time, when your father was studying.

B. You did not understand me, you did not understand me.

I said -- yes, grandfather helped his family, he helped his three

daughters;

that is, he gave money to his former wife, and they were

studying and grew up, because of this.

A. Well, if you say that the MVD

or KGB dug this

up, then

someone must

have spoken to you.

Of course, having in mind that you were the son of a Minister,

they

would not press too hard; they could ask, pölitely.

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B. They did not ask me anything.

A. Well, in your opinion, would this have been found to have a reflection

at the time of your acceptance for work in the MVD or even later?

B. Now, look -- if I had indicated in the anketa, let us say, that mother

was of the nobility, if I had shown that grandfather was arrested and

that he died in prison or in the camps -- I do not know where -- of

course, there would have been questions.

A.

But, even if you had not indicated this, nevertheless it would have

been quite enough to look in the personal file on your father in the

Central Committee - it would be evident there.

B. Why the Central Committee?

There was a

file, up to the 1950s, on father, in the KGB, MGB;

there

was a file on him.

A. And there likely was information about this.

B. There was information not only about this - they suspected him,

during his youth, when he was an engineer in Nikolayev, of being a

member of a Trotskite group.

A. Then the more so - if there was a file on your father, etc., I

agree that...

• Inasmuch as your father was a Minister and soforth, likely this

question could be resolved only in the Central Conmittee; nonetheless,

there was some kind of file which would show that his wife was of

noble origins and that the father of his wife had been repressed at

one time.

What do you think?

Would the KGB know, even if you did not write it in the anketa?

B. I understand the question; but I never had any discussion with

anyone - not in Personnel, not with anyone.

A. But I do not think it logical for you, as an officer of the GRU -

although it, too, might have done a little checking --...

SpORET

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B. Ha, a little?

They really checked!

A. Well, something was evident to the GRU, also, because the GRU also

checks through the KGB but no one else.

B. Right.

A .

There probably it also was..

B. And there was no discussion with me about this in GRU Personnel.

A. When you completed the anketa, you wrote that your mother came from --

instead of the nobility - the professional class, and you said nothing

about the arrest of your grandfather.

Probably you had to indicate or give some explanation about them;

and

the same thing is true about your wife's father -- not only about

the

fact that he had been arrested, and that you were living with your

wife when he was in prison: if

one is to believe your storeis, you

were present during the arrest ....

B. During the search; at the time of the arrest he was not in Moscow;

he was on a hunting trip.

A. ... During the search of TELEGIN's apartment.

It is very hard for me to believe that no one talked to you on this

subject and that this did not affect you in any way when you came on

duty with the organs; we must keep in mind that this was still in

1953.

B. Well, just a minute.

This might have had some effect, and maybe this is why in January and,

February, they were dragging it out -- they were checking on me.

Maybe it did have some effect - they had decided that there was

something in question.

But in March 1953, I do not know ....

STALIN had died, and KPBULOV, who recommended me, was in -- majbe this

played a part; I do not know.

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But no one spoke to me about one of these questions, with the

exception of that about my wife - they spoke to me about that;

they spoke to me when I ... before, during, and after my processing

and when I had begun working.

I talked about my wife, listed her in the anketa, and spoke about father

A. And what did you answer to the question about what kind of relations

you maintained with her at the current time, at the beginning of

1953?

B. What relations?

I had absolutely no contact with her; I did not write it, but I

said that I had seen her in 1952 when I came back, because I wanted

to see the girl;

I bought some gifts, etc.

And

then I saw here in the rayon court and the city court;

that was

all - I never saw her after that.

I answered

that "I have no contact with her."

Because the money, before that, was sent to her -- I did not take it

to her; it was delivered to her by a driver.

After the divorce, the money officially was taken from my salary.

A. And when was the money deducted from your pay - when you began

working in MVD?

B. Well, they began deducting the money from the very beginning, because

the money was deducted from my pay after the decision of the court in

1952.

A. Yes, but where was the executive order?

B. Well, that was not given to me, but was sent probably to the Ministry

of the Navy or to the military unit where I served.

The money was deducted, and I did not even see the executive order.

A. When you began working in the MVD, what did they deduct for the first

or second month?

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B. Well, they deducted 25 percent.

A. What was the sum of money?

B. I do not remember; it was 25 percent after tax.

A. Is it logical or not to make such a conclusion -- that a man steps

into

a job of the most important directorate of the security organs, in

counterintelligence, the Second Chief Directorate,

which works against

foreigners.

B.

So.

A. He comes to the job and he has had no training whatsoever up to that

time with regard to counterintelligence work.

Earlier, he had not worked in the organs of the MGB of the MVD.

In this year in which he enters, he will have passed his twenty sixth

birthday, and most likely he will be neither a Party or Komsomol member.

His father holds a high position; but the MGB has some kind of a dirty

file on him.

His mother is of noble origin; his grandfather died in prison as a

Trotskyite.

He was married to the daughter of a general then in prison.

Well, tell me, as a counterintelligence officer -- is it logical or no

to accept him for work in counterintelligence?

Do you think SHUBNYAKOV or GRIBANOV or the Deputy Minister or the

Chief of Personnel Directorate - even

if KOBULOV has recommended him

would raise a hand

to sign papers accepting him

for work?

B. I do not know whether this would raise a hand...

or on what basis.

This man did not just come in off the

street;

he

was

already working

in the GRU.

On the basis that everything came from the top, that KOBULOV had made

a telephone call, that father occupied a certain position - that is

all.

SEGRET

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A. Well, you know, if you worked in counterintelligence, that for the

KGB it is of no significance that a man has worked in the GRU or any-

where else.

B. It is not as though they were taking a man just out of the institute,

but a man who already had been checked; and the GRU checks through the

MGB -- you just spoke about that - through the MGB.

A. Well, if the GRU decided, "Thank Heavens! We have gotten rid of him!

Lord, lay him to rest!" would the KGB pick him up?

I do not think that you would think so.

B. I do not think so.

A. Maybe you think, but....

B. I am telling you how it was.

A. But it is not enough that you say this is how it was.

It is not logical for

it to have occurred as you say it did.

((Pause)) I think that you should find a more logical answer.

B. What more logical answer?

There probably were instructions through Personnel, or through.

whom

KOBULOV worked.

In March, KOBULOV could have - if he were interested - had ((B's

surname)) processed or not; or he could have (2G) them and asked, "What

is the trouble? That is all".

And what could SHUBNYAKOV, GRIBANOV and FEDOTOV say?

They would not stand there with open mouths.

A. If you worked there, you should know GRIBANOV, FEDDTOV and SHUBNYAKOV

better.

B. No; they are all educated, they are intelligent people, they have great

experience, they are erudite.

SECRET

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A. They are responsible for the internal security of the country; all of

these people were confirmed by the CC CPSU; they were not put there by

a fool.

B. Right.

((B's surname)) too - pardon the expression - was not a small fry

(shuy sobachiy), but a candidate member of the CC, a member of the

cabinet, a member of the coundil of Ministers; these are big things....

A. But it was not ((B's surname)) who was going to work.

B. No, the father, the father; but that,

that was something.

A. I do not deny that it was something, but you know the doors

of the KGB

are not open to all; they are quite narrow.

B. I told you how the doors were opened and how I entered there.

A. Well, let's go on;

we'll return to the anketa --

married for the second time?

when did you get

B.

In 1953.

A. When?

B. In June.

A. Do you remember the date?

B. Yes, the 27th of June.

A. Why did not you answer at once, the 27th of June 1953?

Why did you first answer just 1953?

B. Because you know this very well, and we have talked about this.

You are questioning me like a child.

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A. Because you do not answer in full, and your answer is not satisfactory.

B. You are questioning me like a small boy deliberately.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. It certainly is not deliberate.

I am asking the simplest questions.

You do not even have to think about them.

If a man were there, he would answer them without hesitation.

B. You know that that question already was discussed;

but you still are

pressing....

A. In what manner and how did you inform your Chiefs and Personnel that

you had married?

B. ((Pause)) I remember that I requested official leave for three days

to get married.

I do not remember the details - whether I spoke about interding to get

married.

I think that I spoke with GORBATENKO, said that I intended to get

married to so-and-so.

There was one thing I did...

What did I do?

I checked her, unofficially -- because this is not allowed.

Across the room there was a fellow, the Deputy Chief of the First

Section, named KUDREV, Georgiy Yakovlevich.

I told him that I want to get married, that I wanted to check her, that

there may be some incriminating material against her.

I requested a check on the wife, on her mother and father.

A. And what turned up?

B. Absolutely clear - according to the First Special Department.

SECRET

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A. You were sure that she was absolutely clear?

B. Absolutely clear; I received it and destroyed it.

Certainly, I must have said that I was preparing to marry; I informed

them officially.

I requested three days to get married.

Then I remember that I completed an anketa again, because I had re-

married.

Yes, I completed an anketa again after I was married.

A .

Well, what kind of anketa was it?

B. Well, the one weiwere speaking about, the usual anketa.

A. Here we are - completing this anketa for the third time.

In the beginning, you had completed two copies;

then,

still more.

Now you were getting married; now how many copies

did you complete?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

I know that I completed this anketa; I did not write an autobiography.

And, in this anketa, I indicated that I had been married and gave the

name of the first wife.

I listed the wife, her mother, her father, her brother, her

sister;

that is all.

A. Then, in the new anketa, in answer to the questions about your family

status, you answered that you had been married?

B.

Married.

A. And you answered everything that was asked about your wife?

B. Yes, yes.

A. How did you answer the question about the wife's relatives who had

lived, or were living at present, abroad?

SEGRET

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B. I answered that there was no one who had lived or was living at the

present time ((abroad)); although a distant relative - that is, the

mother's brother -- was in Austria at the time; I do not remember his

name.

A.

Well, what did you answer to the question of who among you and your

wife's relatives had been or was at that time abroad, where they were,

when, and who sent them?

What was your answer?

B. Absolutely no one was abroad at that time, and no one had been sent

anywhere.

A. But the question reads, "Who has been or is presently abroad?"

B. "No one is", "no one is".

A. And who had been abroad?

B. There were... they had been abroad, in France.

A. Well, how did you answer this question?

B. Well, the wife told me; I probably wrote, but I did not write who

had sent them.

I wrote that... I do not remember; I must have indicated.... I asked

my wife... that they had been in France, when he worked at a metallur-

gical plant in France.

A. Well, did you think it was logical when you told me that you yourself

had checked on your wife, that an answer had come from the First

Special Department?

B. A clean one, absolutely.

A. Could it have been written that "she has been abroad, in France -- see

SECRET

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exit file such and such"....?

B.

No; there was absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing.

A. No exit file?

B. I do not know, I do not know if there were exit files in 1935.

A. There were (exit files)) even in 1925, for your information.

B. I tell you that it was an absolutely clean check; the check came from

the Archives on the mother, father, wife.

A.

Well, what do you think, as a counterintelligence officer -- was it

logical that there was no information that they had been abroad?

No matter whether or not they did anything bad, account is taken of

all people who have been or are abroad; all the information is there.

B.

There was no information there.

A. There is exit information on all people; there is a card for everyone;

all the information is there.

If you yourself made the check, you should have obtained this informatio

B. I myself made the check, and I myself received these answers.

A. Well, why did not you get the information that they had been abroad?

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

( (Pause))

Well, what do you think?

What kind of effect would this have on you, when added to what I told

you earlier

-- about you personally, about your father, about your

mother, about your grandfather; further, about the marriage to TELEGINA;

then, after your marriage - it was at that time - Bogdan ((KOBULOV))

was arrested; after that, it was explained that you had married a

SECRET

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person whose parents - although she was an infant -- had been in

France.

What do you think?

Again - would not it be logical for some of the employees of KGB or

the Second Chief Directorate - new chiefs had come in -- to look into

your case?

B. They looked through my file; then, again, my wife's father also was a

responsible worker in the Council of Ministers at that time.

A. You know that many responsible workers of the Council of Ministers, and

as you said, your father was a big man - but there were files on many

of them; although it did not affect all of them, it had a big affect

on some of them.

What do you think?

Do you think anyone remarked that they should continue to keep such a

man as an employee in the organs, or should say goodbye to him?

What is your viewpoint, as a counterintelligence officer who worked

in the American Department of the Second Chief Directorate?

B. First, there was no compromising material on the KOZHEVNIKOVs although

they had been abroad.

A.

Well, if we go further we will find something else.

There are questions about who among the relatives of your wife, your

parents and your relatives have lived in German occupied territory.

B. Right; I did not indicate there that the grandmother on my mother's

side and her sister had lived there; I did not indicate this.

Why?

Because the anketa asked only about your closest relatives.

Whom do they mean by "closest relatives"? - Father, mother, brother,

sister.

Then, on the wife's side - her father, mother, brother, sister.

These are the closest relatives.

SEGRET

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A. Well, yes; but every anketa has the question - do you wish to add

something about your relatives.

B. But I did not wish to add anything.

A. Furthermore, there is a supplementary list of relatives with whom you

are in contact, with whom your family has contact.

For instance, if we say, as a counterintelligence officer... or the

Search Directorate or Personnel looks at it this way -- here, ((B's

surname)) was born in Nikolayev.

After the war and later, the files on all who were born and lived in

that territory were reviewed to find out who among their ((KGB employees

relatives had lived in occupied territory, although perhaps the

employee himself did not know about this,

because many of them ((had no

contacts with such relatives))....

B. Well, all of this is in the special check ((file)); that is right,

absolutely right.

A. I think that even if you did not write that your grandmother had been

in

occupied territory, they would know about it.

B. Right, right.

A. Well, if we add to this that, soon after this... well, your misconduct

in the MVD -- making use of operational documents, and you fell ill with

a venereal disease....

Besides that, soon afterward, you got out of the Komsomol.

Explain to me what reason there was for keeping you there.

B. I do not know what kind of reason!

Maybe it was because I, as a case officer, was like a bump on

a 10g,

an

ordinary one who did not shine in any way and who....

A. So much the more so, if he did not shine there - why keep him?

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B. Well, maybe only because; well... why fire such a guy, fire him for

what?

Very well, they could have fired me for that misconduct, but this was

the decision of SHUBNYAKOV and FEDOTOV.

A. It was not necessary to fire you, but simply to write, "It is not

considered worthwhile to keep ((B's surname)) in the organs of the MVD."

B. Right, but it depends, you see, upon where it comes from?

This usually happens if the chief of a section does not like the opera-

tional worker.

Of course, they could get rid of you, but I do not know why they did

not.

Are you asking me for SHUBNYAKOV's or FEDOTOV's opinion?

A. I do not want this;

I certainly am not asking you

this

do not know this.

I simply am saying

that,

as a counterintelligence officer....

- perhaps you

B.

( 1G)

I do not know why it was so; I simply am telling how it was.

A. ...You must know all of these sharp angles.

B.

I understand, I understand.

A.

Well, you understand, if you worked in the American Department; I think

you would have been interested if some Soviet citizen had met a foreignei

well, maybe he just got a light, maybe he did not do anything wrong.

B.

Right, right, well, this ((person)) can be developed for a long time.

A .

But he is not developed without reason.

B. Absolutely - perhaps two or three years.

A. Well, this -- as they say - receives attention.

SEGRET

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B. Well, what -- did ((B's surname)) have contact with foreigners?

Did his father or mother have contact with foreigners?

A. I am saying this as an example; I am saying the following -- if we

have in mind that....

Look, a man arrives and goes to work in the MVD; his mother's origin

is of the nobility; his grandfather died in prison; his father, although

he was a Minister - you know many Ministers were CC and POLITBY URO

members and that they were imprisoned at one time....

B. Oh, yes.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. God smiled on BERIYA, too, but then they threw him

in prison.

B. And BULGANIN?

A.. ...But there is a file on his ((B's father)), too; he himself ((B)) was

married to the daughter of a general

who now is in prison; he was

recommended for work by KOBULOV, who -- along with BERIYA - was arreste

as a traitor and an enemy of the people; furthermore, at the time, he is

married to the daughter of a responsible worker who has lived in France

there is nothing incriminating in this, but a fact is a fact; he has

left the Komsomol because of age; he was arrested for 15 days for

misuse of operational documents, and he has been ill with a veneral

disease - is this a good man for counterintelligence work in the Center

in Moscow?

Well, explain this to me, from the point of view of a counterintelligenc

officer.

B. Oh, I am not deciding... why should I decide a question about myself

in 19542

But I can tell you only one detail - you are forgetting something a

little bit: the situation, which always plays a part.

1953 was one thing; 1954 was quite different.

EARS

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A complete rehabilitation was going on.

There was a completely different approach and a different way of

looking at many things; do not discount this.

A. Nothing so spectacular had happened as yet in 1954.

B. No -- how so?

There was already a new, a fresh breeze....

A .

..I have in mind, if this.... then you have to add the following -

that there was a great cut-back and release, and the acceptance of

Party and Komsomol members ((in place of former employees)).

You specifically were a prime candidate in the category of those to

whom they would say good-bye.

( (XG;

A and B speak at the same tire))

B. But here, they probably took into account... right; I understand...

I can say one thing - about my father's position; second, "the fellow

has a higher education, knows a language" -- in 1953 and 1954, only 25

to 30 percent in the Second Chief Directorate had a higher education;

there were only 10 to 15 percent who had other languages -- this could

have a certain significance.

A. Just a minute; of course, we have not spoken about education yet --

because you likely remember very well that you have told about your

education several times, and you have told different stories.

And there is a big question about whether you have had the education

you claimed.

((End of Reel #4))

SEGRET

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