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Kialson

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE COMMITTEE

SEIECI COMITISE ON INISTLIGENCE

EiDGEE INQUIRE ON INTELITOENCE ACrIVISIES

:

VOLUME 6

Official Reporters to Committees

Therodzy, August i, 1975

cat jong De l.

Gro

10i-69107-1

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273-10080

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CONTENTS

STATEMENT OF:

PAGE

Glen Pommerening,

Assistant Attorney General for Administration

accopanied by:

Eugene W. Walsh,

Assistant

Director,

haministradite Division, and

1 Fadin| Bureneof Investigation,

• James Hoobl.9%,

• Director os menusement progras. Budget fortre

Justice Department

1227

Hon. Donald C. Alezander,

Connissioner of Internal Revenu:

accompanied by:

W1l2lan Wiiilans,

Depuiy Comissioner:

Meade Wnitcker,

thies Counsel.

Singlecon Jule,

Aszistant Commissiones, Somplierse,

Warren Bates,

Assistant Commosionels Inspection.

Robert Pouses,

Assistant Director, Intelligeno Division

Miss Anica Alparan,

Assistant Corminsioner of Planning and Researon,

Joseph Davis,

• Assistant Commissioner,, Idninicization: and

• Alan Beole,

Fiscai. Managemont Dfricas.

I322

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122;

BULCHT

INQUIRY ON INTELLIGENCE

ACTIVITIES

• ∞-

Thursday, Augus: 7, 1975

House of Representasives,

Select. Comittee on Inüelllgenie,

Washington, I. C.

The connitice met, pursuant to recess, at 10:05 a-m.

in Room 2118: Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable

Otis G. Pike chairman, presiding.

Present;

Representatires Pike presiding!, Gieirs,

Deliums, Murphy, Aspin, Mlicord, Hayes, Lehnan, leciery,

Kasten and Jobsen.

ALBE Proserst:

A. Searle Fleid, 30a': Director.

_--

Chairma: Fake.

The conmittee wil. tone to order.

. Today my love room the Intel lausco-pathorng setivi: es

which are at least supposed to be ererating ll rehering

foreiga irte: igence jo those which are dacherdar intellige e

here in dner:.a.

Our very eificient scarf has minder in the back-up

book a cheer dron a book nelsten In 197: Incutler Zu

UsE and de title us cha chapter is lae ureau s Budges --

A Sourse ci!.we:."

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1227

It starts out, "The Federal Bureau of Investigation's

Budget, Ilke the organization Itsell, stands unique within the

federal government."

I am not going to read any more of this, but 1t 1s

d11f1cult within the domestic intelligence-gathering activitles,

as well as within the foreign intelligence gathering activitles,

•to find out

exactly how nuch is being spent on gathering

Intelligence over Anerican citizens.

Wenave today, as our principal witness this morning,

Mr. Glen Pommerening, the Assistant. Atsorney General for

Administration, accompanied by Me. EugenelWalsh and Me. Hames

• Hoobler.

We are delighüed to have you here. I want you to tell

us all you can tell us about how much money you spend for

gathering intelligence over American citizens and foreign

citizens who are located within America.

STATEMEVI OF GLEN POMMERENING, ASSISTANT

Federal Burzait

ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR ADMINISIRATION, ACCOMPANIED SY

of Instigation) EUGENE I. WAL,35, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR. ADMINISTRATIVE

DIVISION AND JAMES HOOBLER, EIRECTOR OF NANAGEMENT

PROGRAMS BUDIET FOR 'JUSTICE

DEPARTEN'T

Mr. Fommerening. Thank

you, hi. Chairman.

I appreciate the chance to appear before you today to

talk about the Department of Juscice Budget as 1t relates

to Intelligence activities and the process by which these

activities are revieved.

My conments, of course, will be based upon my first-hand

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1228

knowledge of the process, a review of the records of my

organization and its predecessor, and such elements of

historical knowledge of the Departinen: as may be within my

knowledge.

Part 28, subpart 0 of the Code of Federal Regulations,

vested In the Assistant Attorney General for Administration

the responsibillty to supervise, direct and serier the prepara-

tion, justification and axecution of she Justice budget.

This responsibility encompasses the setting of general

policies and procedures for the formulation of the overall

budget requests for the Department and for each subordinate

organization for a given fiscai year.

Our budget, like that of most other agencies: has

traditionally reflected a "categorical" approach, organized

by appropriation and organisation, so that

the programs of 3

given organization lave fallen under one or more generalized

budget "activities."

In the past these broad categories have not, by

thenselves, provided much detail on the scope of particular

programs.

Baginning with the FY 1975 budget cycle, however, the

Department took steps to initlate a more thorough form of

budget review when it Initiated its Management-by-Objectives

(MBO) program. Under this program all orgarizations provided

specific objectives for all of sheir progrars for that year.

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In the FY 'T6 cycle, the Departnent Integrated

the Management-by-Objectives. program with the traditional

budget process. This step required all organizations to

provide speciflo prugran objectives In support of their FY'76

funding reauest. For the first tima, the Department received

financial data at theprogran level of datail, and all major

organizaclins participated in an in-depsh Internal hearing

process with senior department officials.

The purpose oi those interpal departmental hearings

was to explore significant policy, progran, and resource

issues, Including those matiers relating io the Intelligence

activitles of the Federal. Bureau of Investization.

In carrying out this new progrart, the Federal Bureau of

Investigation made the most extensive submission of data that

had ever been given the department.

While the Departmant's FY 1975 Managenent-by-Objectives/

Budget formulation and internal revier process did provide a

more comprehensive level of Informacion to the Department's

loadership, it as evident that a more surictured, prograrmatio

perspective was regutred to provide greater detail and to

facilitate cross-organizatioral analysis of Department programs.

Consequencis, for Fy :977, the lapartment has developed

and implemented an NBO/Budget Planning System with

• a detailed

program budgel: structure which highliehts orer 350 specitic

programs, including those dealing with intelligence-gathering.

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This structure enables, and indeed requires, each organiza-

tion to describe to the Department Its Fy 1977 plans and the

:Level of resources raquired. This system 1s st1ll developmental

In the

sense that this is the first year it has been tries, but

we expect to refine and follow this basic programmatic approach

In future years, at least for incernal review purposes.

In the FY 1977 cycle, the FBI submitted detalled date on

42 separate programs, some of which arelinked directly to its

intelligence and conterintelligence programs. Much of this

material is classified SECRET, out the submission is the most

comprehensive the F3I has ever submitted as part of the

Hepartment's budget raview process.

The Drug Enfacement Adninistration reported. 38 progran

areas for FY TT, of which 6 relased to Intelligence; lt should

be noted that DEA has a budget ectivity for intelligence

activities. The Imnigrationand Naturalization Service

reported 34 program areas far FY 77, of which two were related

to Intelligence. Other organizations reporting programs

ralated to intelligence actiritles in FY '7Y are the Criminal

Division and the office of the Deputy Atcornay General, which

reported one intelligence program area respectirsis.

The internal review process for fy 1gil continued the

touitrit

practice of extensive internal hearings oriented fard policy

and program issues.

In summary, the Department had a basic but linited

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Insiert

Attached

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1231

capacity to evaluate program and

budget requests prior to

1974. Since then the amount of prôgram information and

analytical expertise avallable to thé Department has Increased

markedly. These changes have improved the Department's ability

to review programs. Although the fornal submission to the

OMB and the Congress does noù refleét a comparabla level of

detail, we balieve that.our new MBo/Badget Planning System, and

any subsequent refinements, will continue to ensure Depastment

awareness of intelligence prograns and facilitate our abillty

to evaluate these programs and supporsing budgot requests.

This concludas my prepared statement, Mr. Chairman.

Accompanylas us today are in. Buschen tals, dasistant Directos

for the Adninistrative Division of the Fbi and Me. James F.

Hoobler, Director, Management Prograns and Budget Staff cor

the Department. We will be happy tô unswer any question; we

can; In this session and If you have questions related tu

classified naterial, we would be happy to respond to then at

the approprtate time fr dialsh also has a prepared statament.

Chalisman Pike.

let us start

wish the basic question as

to classified material. Who classified it?

Mr. Fommerening. Maveriais we receive are classiried

by the lederal. Bursau of Investigation.

Chairnan Pile.

Are they classiried by the Director of

the Federal Bureau of Investigation ji are they classifled at

some lower level?

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STATEMENT OF PRI LUGENE M. WALSH

ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, ADMINISTRATIVE DIVISIONE

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION,

DEFORE THE JELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF_ REPRESENTATIVES

Mr. Walsh.

MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE

COMMITTEE:

THE OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAR BEFORE THIS COMMITTEE

IS APPRECIATED AND I WILL DO MY BEST TO RESPOND FULLY

AND ACCURATELY TO QUESTIONS REGARDING THE FBI'S BUDGET

AND PROGRAMS.

WHILE THE FBI HAS SUBMITTED 'ITS BUDGET REQUEST

TO THE DEPARTMENT IN A PROGRAMATIC FORM ONLY SINCE THE FISCAL

YEAR 1975, IT HAS ALWAYS SUBMITTED ITS REQUESTS IN STRICT

CONFORMANCE WITH OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET CIRCULAR 1-11

AS DO OTHER AGENCIES,. THIS CIRCULAR SETS FORTH VERY

DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS CONCERNING THE PREPARATION AND SUBMISSION

OF BUDGET ESTIMATES.

HOWEVER, EXTENSIVE DETAIL WAS PROVIDED IN TESTIMONY

BEFORE THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET AND CONGRESSIONAL

•APPROPRIATIONS SUBCONMITTÈES WITH REGARD TO THE VARIOUS FBI

PROGRAMS, PRIOR TO THE HEARINGS FOR FISCAL YEAR 1975, THE

CONGRESSIONAL APPROPRIATIONS HEARINGS WERE HELD IN EXECUTIVE

SESSION, FORMER DIRECTOR HOOVER CUSTOMARILY GAVE A PORTION

OF HIS TESTIMONY OFF-THE-RECORD WHEN COUNTERINTELLIGENCE

OR OTHER HIGHLY SENSITIVE MATTERS WERE DISCUSSED. AT THE

CONCLUSION OF THE OPEN HEARINGS HELD BY THE lOUSE APPROPRIA-

TIONS SUBCOMMITTEE IN CONNECTION WITH THE FISCAL YEAR 1976

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REQUEST, AN EXECUTIVE SESSION WAS CALLED BY THE CHAIRMAN

TO PERMIT A DISCUSSION OF COUNTERINTELLIGENCE AND OTHER

SIMILARLY SENSITIVE MATTERS.

THE FBI HAS ALWAYS BEEN WILLING TO ANSWER ANY INQUIRIES

• BY THE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEES OR ANY OTHER CONGRESSIONAL

COMMITTEES CONCERNING ITS PROGRAMS OR. ITS USE OF FUNDS.

DURING THE COURSE OF THIS PRESENT HEARING, MR. CHAIRMAN,

SHOULD SENSITIVE QUESTIONS OF A CLASSIFIED NATURE INVOLVING

NATIONAL SECURITY BE BROUGHT UP FOR RESPONSE OR DISCUSSION.

I WOULD REQUEST THAT THIS BE DONE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION,

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Mr, Pornerening. I bellere they are classiflad at a lower

lavel but Mr. Walsh could better respond to the question.

chairman Pike. Who classifies the budget "secret?"

• Mr. Walsh. In this parulcular response, Mr. Chairnan, I

acted as the Classification Officer, and 1t bears my number,

No:

9:

Chairman Pike. Now, what is there about the budget of

the FBI that requiras it to be secret?

Mr. Walsh. Mr. Chairman, there is nothing about the

total budget that requires li to be secret..

The only classi-

fication -

Chairman rike.

All right, then what as the total budget

of the FBI?

Mr. Walsh.

The sotal budgst of the FBI, Mr. Chairman:

for FY 1975: amouats to $449:546,000..

Chaiiman Pike. Roughly $450 million"

Mr. Walsh. That 1s right, sir.

Charman Pike. Now, of that total anount, can you

tell us how much. is classified "sorres?"

Mr. Walsh. I can'; feil you xactly, in. Chairman. but

the idea of the classification is

Chairman Pike. You neon you can't tell us because you

don't know or you decline to tell, is in open session?

Mr. Walsh. No, s1r. What I mean is, if I may have an

opportunity to oxplain in my own way, what we are seeking to do

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18 not to reveal the

specific resources and manpower committed

to countere

intelligence -

Chairman Pile. I understand that, but all I am asking

you 1s not specifically about resourcus and manpower, I am

asking you for the number of dollars' as to mich you can't

•give us any details. -How much of that #450 million FBI budget

is secret?

Mr. Pomnerening. Mr. Chalrman, In our interpretation

of the budger donation we have received from the fBI and the

classifications that have been appliad so them, the amount

that we.

corsider In one way cr another constrained by

alassification is $82,488,000, which is FY 1975.

Chairman Pike. Of the amount which is not classifled,

now much 1s dedicated to gathering intelligence?

Mr. Pommerening. Nors.

Charman Pike. So ail of the money which is dadicated

to gathering intailigence rails within she secret budget?

Mr. Ponnerenáns.. That is correct.

Chairnan Plea. Is all of the money within the secret

budget dedicated to gathering Intelligence?

Mr. Fonnerening. My interprecation of the budget submission

1s that the answer ls yes.

Chairman Pile, Now, tell is why the amount of noney -

well, I guess it isn't secret any more becase you have now

told us hor much of it is secret, so that 19 no longer a secret.

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$2,4

We have got $84 million worth of"un-line-Itemed"expendi-

tures for the gathering of Intelligence.

Does the GAO audit these expenditures?

Mr. Pommerening. Yes, they do.

Chairman Pike. On a complete line 1tem basis whenever

they want to without any restricties?

Mr. Walsh. May I respond to that, Mr. Chairman?

Chairman Pike. Certainly.

• Mr. Valsh. Bafore I do, I would ask your leave to

clarify one statement. I am nos positive tat the $82

million figure mentioned by fir. Sonmarening includes

Intelligence gathered in the field of orgarised crime.

I would have to checl that to male absolutely certain

but I feel that type of intelligence is not included in the

Ingure that Mr. Pomerering mentioned.

Chaliman Pike. Are you

saying that ke spend for intel-

ligence ageinst organized crime is not secret?

Mr. Walsh. It isn't set in the category of the Kational

Defense or Security category, bus 1t would certainly be harmful

to our effort I would say, Mr. Chairmen, il organised crime

ware aware in specific detail -

Chairman Pike. I don't have any trounle agreeing with

you; 211 I am trying to find out is, is the $82 million figure

secret Intelligence-gattering activiules of the FBI which have

nothing to do with organized crine?

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Mr. Walsh. Mr. Pommerening has advised me that che

:ontire Intelligence effort 1s Included in the $82 million.

and I stand corrected on that.

Chairman Pike. Mr. McClory.

Mr. McClory. You say that the GAO has reviewed the .

budget of the FBI, of the Department of Justice and the

FBI, and 1f so, where is the GAO report? Is that available

to us? May we have a copy of thai?

Mr. Walsh. If I may explzin, Ma. Congressman;

I have

some exact data hare on the extent of their aucit and it is

as follows:

During the past 15 years the General Accounting Office

has conducted two separate sibe audits relating to an examina-

tion of the Bureau's payroll records.

On January 18, 1964, an awalt of payroll records covering

the pariod June 1, 1961 chrough January 18, 1964, was completed.

On August 3, 1972, GAO complotel an audit of papoll

records covering the period January 13, 1964, through January

8,.1972.

Mr. Neclory.

They have really ever audited the expendi

tures of the FBI, have they?

Mr. Walsh. Nasth. For the record, if I could add one

additional thine, with regard to the sno audited voucher

records, three separate sita

audits hive been nade during the

past 15 years.

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In January, 1965,

GAO completed an audit of all voucher

and related records for the FY 1961

through 1964.

In May. 1969 their audit covered the FY 1965 through

1968 period and In April 19T2, GAO audited these records

covering FY 1969 through 197]. That is the extent of thair

audit except for what is going on at the present time.

Mr. Mcclosy. The FBI refused acsess to GAO for auditing

their expenditures. How about the segrat funds, the intelli

gence funds? They haven't been audited by the GAO, have, they?

Raish.

audited furde for intelligersa.

No, Mr. Congreusman, chey have not,, fianically.

Mr. McClory. How many people worked on the FBI bulget?

Mr. Pomnerening. Mr. Chalman, I think that is a question

for me. Mr.Walsh, of course, has an extensive starf assisting

him in the preparation of the budger submissions of the BI.

The staff which is available to me in budget proprition for

the entire department 1s 53 in number.

Mr. Mcclory. How many do the FlI?

Ms. Pommmerening. There are a total of fi i analysts

assigned to the Faderal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. McClory. How many OMB parsonnel really go intu the

FBI budget?

Mr. Ponnerening. The Office of Managament and Budget,

I understand, has seven people whosa responsibility includes the

entire Depariment of Justice and the entire Department or the

TreaSUry •

They only have one person that I know of with the FBI.

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Fir. McClory.

Now, did the former Director, J. Edgar

Hoover, defend funds that vere available to hin separately

• for his personal Investigations, or his personal files that

he maintained?

Mr.Walsh. To my knowledge, sir, he did not.

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)

Mr. McClory. Would that be covered in any fiscal report,

any budgetary report?

Mx. Walsh. I don't know that it would be covered

anywhere, Mr. McClory. I just have never heard this situation

raised.

MI. MCClOTy. How about the progiam of cointelpso? Are

you familiar with that?

Mr. Walsh. I am familiar witn that, sir,

in a very

general way.

It was never under. my supervision -

MX. MCClOIY.

Was that program presented to tha

Appropriations Committees of the House and the Senate, ard

appropriations specifically designaied for that progian?

Ms. Walsh. The Colntel arogram, as I understand it:

was discussed oif the record by Mr. Hoover Desore the House

Appropriations Conmittee, on at least I& accusions,

Further andorstand-it, sir it was before-nycine -

Mr. Moclory. That woulê be a program that would go

into the secret, unaudited funds, would it not?

funced.

Mr. Walsh. That program, sir, was not sepacately

There is no fund speuificaily assigned to what you

are referring to as the Cointelpro.

Mr. MCClory. Are che funds foi those parposes

discontinued, at the presert time, do you know?

Mr. Walsh. that program has.

baen discontinued.

-MI. MCClory. My tine is already up. Thank you.

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with.

accorde

1239

)

Chairman Pike. Mi. Delluns?

IT. Delluns: MI. Chalrman, I request unanimous consent

to reserve my time.

Chairman Pike. ME. Murphy?

Mr. Murphy. How are the cover! programs in the rBI

curiently reflected in the budget?

Mr. Ponmesening. Mr. Murphy, the way the budget is

subnitted through the Disice of Management and Budget and to

the Congress, the funds which are used los intelligence

inal

purposes are included under the cacagory Security and Crime

Investigations and Field Investigations.

Mr. Murphy. Is any of this noney ever transferrad to

other agencies?

EX. Walsh. No, sir.

Mr. Murphy. Could you teli us how much noney was spent

lasi: year on elactronic surveillance?

• Mr. Walsh. I do noi have that irformation, No. Murphy.

• I would regard it as being confidensil in tne interests of

nat.onal secusity. " would

say if this conmittee raqaired

thai informasion, we could obtain i= and subnic it but I do

not have that information.

Mi. Murphy. I wish you would suknit it.

He do regiire

it. hould you please

submit it to the committae.

(The information raferred to will be found in the fades

•of she subconiitee.)

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Mr. Murphy. Let me know. lf you lse any other intelligence

..garnered through electronic suzveillar.ce. from any otler

agency. In other words, does the NSA cr the Central Intelligence

Agency, do they let you share information thay receive ..

through elestronic surveillance, of ary other method in which

they get it?

MI. Waish. If I may preface ny response, Ms. Murphy,

I an not an experi in this fiele. I+does 10-

Mc. Murphy. To whor should we accress these questiona?

Me. Naish.

That particula: question would be within the

reals of the responsibility and knovledge of Assistant

Directos. Wannall. I know in a general way, Mr. Murphy, that all

agercies in the intelligence commniss share intelligance

Information.

Mr. Murphy. Did our suait indicace to you that ve might

get into theso areas befose your appesrence tere today?

Mit. Walsh. Not this particulas area, as.

No. Murphy. Any of you gentlemer?

Mr. Pormierening. No.

Yoiac

ansver 13 mc?

ht. Murphy,

Do you maintain

& contral registry si

informants' names?

MI. Naish.

Yes, we do, Mir, Murpty.

Mr. Murphy.

ts. Chairman, I an goingin reserve wha..

time I have left and pass

at this nament.

Chairman Pike. Mr. Aspin?

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Mr. Aspin. Thank you, Mr. Chaiman.

Are any of you gentlemen the kind of person who could

give us some opinions about the current stacus of wiretapping

and what is legal and what is not legal? Is that in you:

purview?

Mr. Walsh. It is not in mine, li. Aspir.

Mr. Aspin. Do you know,, for example, does the FlI or:

the Justice Dapartment provide informacion to the NSA and ask

the NSA to help in conducting surveillance? I am chinking

particularly of the NSA's wiretep operacions. Do you provide

input for them on those?

Ax. Walsh. I honestly can't respond to that because of

lac}: of knowledge, ir. Aspin. It is rot in ty fielá and 1

really don't have that infornation.

Mt. Aspin, Could you tell us about the 582 million in

the budget.

Give us broad caceyories as to winst thet goes

to. What are the differant things for which chat money is

spert?

Mr. Ponmerening. Mr. Aspin, the sub-casagories vE tiet

iten - and I hasien to add thai those are not all secret

Eunds.

The security classification is applice so the toial,

to eliminate the possibility of, by subtracion, isoluting

the figura which is the figure sought to ha prosected.

The program activities which are included in thai

sategory ara, internal security, counterespillas, aminat

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general criminaly

Intelligence -- broken down intol argarized crime, internal

air:!

security, Intelligence, counterespionage intolligence.

Mx. Aspin. Can you tell us broacly within that - are

there any numbers that can be released about how much is spent

on those things?

Mr. Ponnerening. That is the probiem we have, to. aspin.

If se releasa some, by the procees of elimination -

Mc. Aspin. Which is the biggest? can you give ne an

order of magnicude of how much is spers?

Mr. Pommerenlag. There are three of then that are al:

about the sims lavel.

Mr. Aspin. Can you tell, us which thzee those aco? lie

those the three largest?

ind.

Mr. Ponnerenino. Istesnal eecuciey, counterboishagi,

and intelligence with its aub-cstegoriao, ass all -

Mr. Aspin.

Are all thnes about the gans?

Mr. Pornerening: That is correct.

Mr: Aspin.

What is the differance between internal.

security and counterespionage?

MI. Pomeroning. In genezal cents - ara, of course.

the interpreiation of thase deficitions in large part mist:

rest

with the operating agency which nast assign coste arr.

man- years beiween

them, Under the internal security caterosy,

general suilalines, we have violation of constitutional

rights, including civil rigito; prooluns of terrorism, ani

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1.249

)

problems of anti-government activity.

Mix. Aspin. Counterespionage would be what?

It. Ponnerening. In counterintalligence we hava the

general problems of reviewing and being aware of intelligence

activities of other nations, and attenpts to assess the extent

then and to take appropriate measures to deal with then.

MI. Aspin. It you did vicetaps for example, they might

be under any of those?

Mr. Ponmeroning. Yes.

MI. Aspin. Asthe cost of a particular vicetao

connected with it, it would fall mdex the categosy of whatever

li was, espionage, or there might be an internal security

viretap, is that right?

Mr. Ponmerening. Yas.

Mr. Aspin. Ms. Chairmen, my time is up.

Chairman Pike. Mi. Kästen?

Mr. Kasten. I want to go back to a quescion Ni. Mochary

saised. How was Cointelpro reflected in the BI badget?

Mr. Walsh.

dir. Kaster;

there is in such proggan aù tie

present time.

Mr. Kastan.

Now was it reflecied in the EBI budget?

it is my understending it was not reflected in tha rs? budjet.

Is that your understanding?

Mc. Waish. Jes, sir.

It was parc of a general. categyry

of field intestigations.

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1244-1248

ME.

Kasten.

If another progran like that were iustituted

today or tomorrow, would it be reflected in the budget under

the

new procedure, under the new format, or would it still be

not listed, would it still ba completely hirden?

Mr. Walsh: It would have to be verlected in the material

that we subnic to the Deparinent of Justica, specifically to

MI. Pennerening's organizacion, but I don't believe the fonal

budget suomission has been adjusted by Coagress to require, or

reflect that type of informition.

At I correct on that?

15

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1249

)

Mr. Pommerening. Yes.

Mr. Kasten. In Fiscal Year 1976 how many FBI persomel

were stationed abroad?

Mr. Walsh. Fron recollection, sir, I would say eighsy-

employees.

three, subject to correction of one o: two bodies:

Mr. Kaster. It could be there vere seventy-seven

thirty-five

fifty-four legal attaches and forty-these support peosle?

Mr. Walsh. That would be approximately correct.

Mr. Kasten. About how much money do you think these

people cost?

obtein it.

Mx. Walsh. I don't have that, sir, but I can easil?

Mr. Raster.

Would $4.2 311lion be 16?

Mix. Walsh.

That does sound reasonable, sir; yes:

Mr. Kasten.

I want to ask some questions aboui the

FRI

activities of the FiB abroad. Would you chazactesize a

program to ansure --I an quoting fron a report that you pre-

pared - "a program to ensure a constant and prompt exchaire

of information" a form of intelligenes: gothariaz?

Mr. Walsh. I think it could be to charecterized. Hi

Mi. Kasten. If this ware done prazseas, would it noi: be

a form of foreign intalligence gathering?

Mr. Walsh. I think, Mr. Kasten, lu depends on your

definition. We are not opezational in any wey whatsoever

abroad. We must rely on what our courterparts impart to lis -

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1250

Mr. Kasten.

That quote "program to ensure a constant

and prompt exchange of infornation" which you agreed was a

form of intelligence gathering, was extracted fron the budget

justification for the FBI legal attache prossam. That is

page 117 of the Fiscal Year 1977 spring planning call.

My question is, wny isn't the legal attache program

simply called "foreign intelligenze"?

Mr. Walsh. Primarily, Mr. Kasten, because that would

constituce, I would say, a minor portion of theis responsibili-

ties. A great deal of their efforts go into an exchange of

critinal information and searching out of inforation at our

request, regarding fugitires who are abroad and things of

that nature.

Mi. Kasten. You said it would be a minor part of theis

responsibilities. Could you define further that minoi part of

their sesponsibilities, the foreign intelligance part of the

legal attache rasponsibilities, which you said was a minor

part? Exaci:ly what is that?

Mc. Waish.

You take the normal lagaï attache

office,

Office

and it has only one or two agents assigned.

That has has

she

responsibility of maintaining liaison wich the top law entorce-

went agencies in the entire cunty under his jurisdiction.

Mr. Kasten.

There is a porcion which you would describe

as foreign intelligence; is that corest?

Mr. Walsh. It could be so descried, NI. Kasten; yes, sit.

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Mr. Rasten. In the spring planning call of Fiscal Year

197?, I have a question about an infoimant classification of

4,3

$413 million. Why was this listed under Object Class 212,

"Iravel and Transportation of Persons", this year where in

previous years it was listed under a category called Other

Services? Why are you making this change? It makes it hard

to follow if you keep puccing the numbers in dieterent: cate-

gories.

Mix. Walsh. What happened there, Mi. Kasten, it vou will

give me a noment to refer to this, hiscoricully, paynents to

informants were carried in she FBI budget under Object

Classification 21, entitled "Travel and Iransportacion o

Persons"

Beginning with Fiscal. Year 197?, It was decided in

conference wich the Department of Justice that that ould ba

more appropriate, if it were set forth under Object Classifi-

cation Number 25, which is Other Services.

Mr. Kasten. My question was, what are you doing here?

Do you just think it' is nore appropmsace?

Mr. Walsh.

That happens, sir, in the past fiscal gerr,

the Congress restricted traval by statute during the imocie

of the fiscal year and the incerpretation that wa placed on that

was a very striot one upon thai osature, and ve construed

It to mean that any expenditura by the IBI under Object

had

Classification Nunber 21 has to be restricted by that

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Congressional enactment.

Chairman Pike. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mx. Milford?

Mr. Milford. I will reserve my time, Nr. Chairman.

Chairman Pike. Mx. Hages.

Mr. Hayes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder if either of you, or anybody, is prepared and

can discuss with me the nethod of budgeting and the procedures

that were used in the Mississippi civil rights investigation

and the ultimate civil rigits prosecutions, particularly the

one in Philadelphia, Missiosippi, involving the murder of

civil rights workers and the penetzation of tie klan there.

Do you happen to lnow how those budgets were allocated, hor

the funds were --

Mr. Walsh. I may be able to give a partial response.

Mr. Hayes. Maybe you can submit that, if you can't dis-

cuss it now.

None of you are familiar with tha: area, how it was de?

Mr. Walsh. If i may give a pastial responae, sir.

There would have been no specific budgeting fur that.

Mr. Hayes. Tnder your organization chari heze, would

1t suE be 11 the internal security prancü? Mueld 1e have ea

in the "IS-]"

section?

No, sir, Congressman Hayes,

Mr. Walsh.

It nay have,although-at one-timeR- Cougrosemar

that type of investigation was supervised in another part of

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NN 55324

The General Inuestiants

Divisior

the FBI, and I can t give you-the exact time trame We coul

secure that information.

Mr: Hayes. Is that a common practice to have sonething

operate out of your intelligence division, vet being supervised

from anothes branch?

Mr. Walsh. No; sir. What I meant to convay was that

civil rights can be construed as boch a criminal violation

• and an internal security type violacion. For a long time.

all civil rights cases were investigated ous of the feneral

Investigative Division.

We had a whole saction, and still do have a whole sertion,

In the General Investigative Division, devosed to that tyle

of activity.

Mc. Hayes.

So that Genezal Investigacive Division

may have used part of its funds, then, for what, in essere,

can be described - at least according te your funecional.

organizational chart -- as an intelligence activity?

Mx. Walsh.

Mr. Hayes.

absolutely, sir, suc

Peretration of an organizacion like the iu

Klw: Klen or any ad hoc groug like chac?

Mr. Waish.

Absolutely. Yes. you are correci

Mt. Haves.

Would those funds in the osher branch hare

been confidentially held and not, for exampis, allocated

after having been testified to before the Appropriations

Comnittee?

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1254

Mr. Walsh.. There was no testimony, Mr. Hayes, requised,

Is to that type of funding. Testimony would have been in gen-

eral terms. I cannot recall ever being raquired to testify

with that degree of specificity.

Mr. Hayes. Let me disouss at this point, ther, in

terna of funding the liana for the Intelligzace division's

work and particularly that part cuclined as the "is-l'

Section uhich has to do with Black and Auerican Indian

extremists and white hate organizations and individuais,

• extremist Spanish Anerican activitias, civil unrest and acts

of violence, entremist infornants, now the funding fos that

parsiculas operation, is that a hidden buöget item, or do

you have a line item listed like that?

Mr. Walsh. We don't have a line icem, Mr. Hayes, bu: I

don't regard it as hidden funding. It is simply that in

presenting our budget for Congressional approval, there his not

been a requisement to specify with thet denice of parsiaacity,

all of the expenditures of the FEI.

If that were done, sir, I submic the FaI bauget would!

be hundreds of pages.

Mc. Hayes. I don't want to quarral with you about i.

You nay be right. It may be nine chcusand jages.

Is it & mattes to waich you testify as ie vuat kind f

operations and progiamming you intend to ca.ry out under ihit:

Jection when you go down and tastig? Do you testify in losed

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1255

hearings on that item?

Mr. Walsh. No, Mc. Hayes, the type of

testimony is pub-

Lished. I have here a reprint of the 197s estimony Before

the House Subcormittee on Appropriations.

Mx. Hayes. I understand. Have jou ever confidentially

testified -- I am not asking about the subscence of it -

have you ever confidentially testified as to what type

activities you carry out under that section, to a committee oễ

Congress?

Mc. Waleh. I have no recollection that that was

done.

Мс. Науеб.

Has anybody.

/I couldn't say one hundred

Mr Walsh. d

percent that it was not, but I have no recollection or knowledge

that it was done.

Мг. Науев.

Thank you.

Chairman Pike.

Me. Johneon.

Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Crairman.

I thinis, Mo. Walsh, you testified that the organized

crime portion of the budget was incluled in the $82 millim

that was kept secret; is that correct:

Mr. Walsh. Mr. Johnson, that was organized crime in:elii.

genca to which reference was nade

Mr. Johnson. Why would chat be rugarced as an intell gence-

gathering activity, and why must that be kept secret?

The

amo int you spend --

Mr. Walsh. It would provide some assistance to those

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1256

elenents in organized crime which we are attempting to counter,

If they knew exactly how much money was being comnitted for

intelligence gathering and exactly how much manpower was being

comnitted by the FBI to counter the threat which organized crime

Imposes upon this country.

I think that information would be extremely valuable to

then.

It is not classifiable as facional security Information,

but. I do belleve it should not be publicly rerealed.

Mi.. Johnson. That is the justification for its not being

published; is that right?

Mr. Walsh.

That is it, sir; yes.

Mr. Johnson. Who classifies thai? Who nakes the dezas-

mination it should be clessified?

Mr. Walsh. We made that determination in executive

conserence of all the assistant directore, and the Directr, and

it is a matter of policy that the FBI's position is that hould

this informacion be revealed publicly: It would ba a souria of

concort to organized crime figures shose actities

Mr. Johnson. You, yourself, made shat determination

even though you adult it is not & nacter of racionai securicy.

Mr. Walsh. That is exictly right.

Mr. Johnson. Did eng Mombeus of longress object to tiat,

as Fat as you know?

Nir. Walsh.

No, sir.

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Did they ever question you about it; as

Mx. Johnson.

far as you inow?

Mic Walsh.

No; not as far as I know,

sir; no.

Mr. Johnson. Which committees of Congress do you revort

to regularly?

RC#3

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1258

MI. Walsh.

have no procedure for

reporting regularly

to any cormittee of Congress, Mr. Johnson. le appear once

à year before the House subcormittee on Appropriacions and

once a year before the Senase Cormittee on Appropriations

and that is the extent of regular appearances.

Mr. Johnson. How long do you generally testify before

those suicormittees?

Is. Walsh, Three hours, four hours, sonething like

that, sit.

Mr. Johnson. During that period of time do they really

get into your act.vitios? theyobviously canoi, can they?

Mr. Halsh, The various Congsessnen hava particular

Itens in which they are interested and they quession the

Directos, who is the principal vitness concerning those

itans of interest io then, in addition to whas we have

submitted in writing.

Mx. Johnson. llas there ever been a detailed investi-

• gation by the Congress as to why you have classitied this

various infornation?

Have they ever

asica you to justity

the amounts that are spent and kept seorot fion the publi!,

with respect to just the incelligence desigaation of

• organized crine?

Mr. Nalch.

No, Mr. Jolnson, To ny inowledoe we

: hai

no conversation with the congress on that subject.

Mr. Jolson. Have you ever beer before the Judiciay

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• 2.

1259

)

Cormittee and explained your activities in decail so they

cán analyze yor programs and activities?

•

Walsh. I have not, sir, but at the direction of the

Judiciary Cormittee ve are currently undergoin a rather

extensive audit by the feneral iccounting oftice.

it. Johnson, Bat so far as you know there fa's never been

any appaarances before the Judiciary Committoe explaining

in ictail the intelligerce fathering sctivities and everything

designated as intelligence.

Mr. Walsh. No, I beilove those hearings will he

forticoming, Mi. Johnson.

Mir. Ichnson, When was the last zine they had any

hearings like chat, if you know?

Mr. Halsh. I don't snow.

Mr. Johnsore Not since menosy of man goeth to tise

contrary?

fix. Walshi.

I just don't know of any.

Ms. Johnson.. In effect what you are saying then is

that there has been no Congressional investigation, no

Congressioral inculedge. Not necessarily as a result of the

FBI trying to hiée anything, but just bacause the corares:

has not looked inin it?.

Mo. Malsh. Mhat I am saying, si:, is that we have mide

•our budget presertation ench yaar in accordance with stasite

and -

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1260

HI. Johnson.

You indicated that your budget, though,

is in very broad, general terms.

When you have your budget presentation, how many line

itens are there?

Ms. Halsh. I think that term

"Iine iten," Mc.

Johnson, is sometimes misunderstood. ie do not have a line

• Item budget as such. He have program activicies undes

which me budget and they are five in jumber: Security an

crininal investigation, identification by fingerrints:

criminal and scientific laboratory, caining, and gereral

administration.

You could refe: to those as line itens if you wanted

to, but those are the items under which we have been seporting

traditionally and still will be reporzing, as I understand

it..

Chairnan Pike.

The time of the

gentlenan has expiral.

Mr. Lehnan?

Mr- Lekman: Tank you, Mi. Chaonsi

The four main areas are incelligence gathering,

organized crine, general crine, internal secuity, aid contez-

espinnage.

Mx. Walsh.

Yes, sii.

do

MI. tchman. For the sale of understanding, what/the se

mean, in which of these categories would the Patty licarst

case. fall?

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Mr. Halsh.

That would be a general investigative

activity.

Mi. Lehman.

None of these?

Mr. Walsh. No, sir.

Ir. Lehman. For instance, how about the firmy Hoffa

case; would that fall inco chese caceogires?

Mr. Walsi. No, sit, it would no=.

Mr. Lehman. In these areas, you do vicetap and nave

electronic surveillance in all chese four areas I just

mentioned?

Mr. Maish, I will have to review that auain.

Ne io have in the osganized crime field viretaps undec

Title III. These are wiretaps which ne pucuuant to

warrant, authorized by Title ITI

There are very sew that would be utilized in the reneral

crine area and they would be within une prescribed boundaries

of the statute.

In the field of internal security, to my knowledge, cere

are none, but I musi, state I am not the Bureau's expert o

thas and as to conterestonage, ve have had in the past, 101

possibly do traay - I can't speak suchoritatively on the: a

)

Mc. Lehman, You are nos sure nether you have wiretas

or 120t

on internal security?

Mx. Walsh. I an quite certain that we do not.

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1262

Mx. Irehman.

Do you have any wiretaps on any kinds of

classification other than these particular four? Are

political dissidents - let's say the enemy's list from the

last Naministration.

Do you do any wiretaps other than in these particular

four categories?

Mx. Walsh.

I know of none, Mi. Congressman.

MI. Lehman, Have any wiretays been placed on the Hiii,

for instance? Are there any FBI viretaps on Capitol lill

in Congressional offices or offices related shereco?

fix. Maish.

Absolutaly 70t

Ms. Giaimo. Mill the gentlenan viela?

Mr. Tehma. I yiela.

• Mx. Giazmo. Morld you inow, if there were?

Nc.Walsh. Mi. Congressian, this is not my field --

Mx. Giaimo. That can be anovered easily. You eiches would

know or wouldn't. My suspicion is you vould not know.

Mx. Malsh. If we are seeking an answer as to a legally

constituted -

Mx. Giazno.

Would you now if in fact there were wire-

taps on ine lill today? Can yo1 assuce ny that there are

not?

Mr. Walsh. ill I can assure you sii, is that to my

knowledge thare ane not bui it is not my field.

• MI. Giaimo.

You don't nor.

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2263

Kr. Walsh. Legally speaking that is true.

fir. Lehman.

May I have the rest of my "ime back?

That. I am trying to find out is, if there were, can

you give me any legal authority for sich wiretaps?

Mr. Maish. No, sir, I just an rot the experc in that

field. I regrot I can't answer your question. I am not

prepared to do so.

Mr. Lehman. If there were wiretaps on the Hill,

or in any offices on the lili, they would be illegal virecaps

under any legal authority, as far as any legal authority

is concerned about which you wouid know?

Mix. Walsh. I just cannot address mysel. to shat

question, sir.

Mr. Lehman, I yield back the balance oi my time.

Me. Giaino. I am a lictle confused as te the thrus:

of your testimony: in. ronnerening.

"keep hearing conments

from you that recently you said heretofore there was no need

for that type of specificiey - at on point you said. ant

you said there tere no procedures,

and then you stated in

response to questions of Congressiona: oversight, that thie

were three di foui-hour hearings

so your bufvet, I believ:

it was.

I have served on the Appropriations Cormittes since 1963,

which is quite a long time.

since thac tina I have iormal

certain conclusions.

one no the conc.usions that I formed

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1264

was that a very sacrosanct budget, which truly did not

receive any kind of Congressional oversight, or Congressional

scrutiny, was the budget of the rBI.

Was I wrong in that conclusion and

l assumption?

MI. Walsi. I didn't play a --

Mx. Giaimo. I understand you didn't but you have been

In

the Justice Department and you are familiar with the

budgec. I suppose you have been here some years.

MI. Walsh. I sepresent the rBI, sir, ano I am MI. Walsh,

racher than Mc. Pornerening. I just vantea to make sure no

you want to answes the question.

Mr. Giaino. "Ou.

Mr. Walsh. And she question is?

Mr. Gialmo. On the adequacy of urarsight by Congress

of the FBI's budget you said there kas ao need for specificity:

prosedures were few and far between.

Is it not a fact that part of the problem here is tart

for the first time the Bureau's budges is really beginning

to be locked aù by Congress, like other budgets? Hasn't

the Bureau's budget really been treated specially as a

practical masser by Congres3?

I don'i think thas is a

i sc:ange

fact to the American paople bat & wouid like to hear your

contient on ic.

Mt. Maish. I think that the testimony of former

Diracior Hcover. was given great weighs by the menders of the

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Appropriations Committee.

PI. Giaimo. It certainly was. It certainly was.

Mr. Walsh.. That is my response to the question. I

believe his testimony was given great weight by the nembers

of the Appropriations Conmittee.

Mr, Giaimo. Does that explain the reason why there

ras very litile Congressional oversight or very little

need for specificity, or procedural devalopment in the

budget of tha rBI?

: No. Walsh. Our budget, sir, was submitted in compliance

circular

with OMB guidelines in their bulletán,

A-11. Ii went right

• down the line.

MI. Giaimo. I think: you have answered the question.

Lei me ask you one othei quescion.

In response to a previous question, did I understar!

clearly, then, that the reason for secrecy in your budget

was primarily ard amost proctically solely so that

organized crime coud not te comfori frcm the budget

figures?

Mc. Walsh. - No:

six, that was a side issue.

The

principal reson is that in our countrrintelligence effor:,

we feel it woula ba a source di comfort to our adversarie:

" of cy ployees)

if they know the rubers

'anl

the financial cescurces bein

committed to the cointerintallicence effcit.

fix. Giaino. Now defini "aüversaries"

for ine because

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1266

an adversary could be anyone charged with a crime in the

United States.

MT. Nalsh. In this instance they define adversaries

as the members of foreign intelligenca gathering organizations

who are directed against the United States.

MI. Giaimo. I am referring to that prios colloguy inat

you had with fir. Kasten I believe it was akout organized

crime taking comfort, from having a knowledge of your

secret budget figures.

Mr. Walsh, Yes, sir. We have a progiam to concas

organized crime, and it is well known and it has been cestified.

to that wa do have such a program and it is my feeling that

publicizes

agent

should a specific number be

given as to the agency manpover

and financial resources being commiitze io that progran

were made public, it would provide a source of comfort to

organized crine figures. That is all I meant in that

regaid.

Mr. Giaino.

fir.

Chairiar,

I reserve the balance of

my time.

Chairman Pike. Mi. Field?

MI. Field. Thank you, Mr. Chaisan,

MI. Walsh, I would like to get into the area of duplication

and how good sore of these programs are,

I would lite to

begin with the counterintelligence program.

How much of the $82 million budget goes

to

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1267

counterintelligence? Is there an approximate

figure you

could give us?

Mx. Walsh. This is just the thing, Mr. Field, that

I asked relief from answering on the ground

Mr. Field. Let us say a substantial portion of the.

budget. In fact I shink one of the things the staff was

most amazed by is that it is a large part of your intelligence

budget.

Does this irclude overseas autho"ity? In othar words,

can you ão some counterintelligence overseas?

Mr. Walsh. No, sit, me are not uperational overseas.

Mr. Field. You have no counterintelligence overseas.

Mr. Walsh. You get to a quescion of desinition, Mr.

Field. Is the chie:

Mr. Field. May I intesrups for i secend?

Your owa program description indicates chat you do.

Is that weerg?

Walsh

Mr: Field.

No, sis, it is a queution of definition,

as you see it.

MI. Field, I vould lite to go into the kind of icbs

we do here.

How many foreign agents are there in this country?

No. Walsh. I haven't any idea, lir. Fista, and I don't

think anybody eise does.

•fIx. Field. In ocher words, ve spend all chis meney

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3)

but we don't really know how many people are out there?

..Do we have even an approrimate idea within a couple thousand?

• MI. Walsi.

I think there are estimates, Mr. Fiel&,

ranging up as high as 40 percent of the official establishments

of some foraign governient.

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Mr. Field.

I thought the zange want fron 35 and in sone

cases even up to 30 percent. Nevertheless it is a lot of

people.

Thousands and thousands of people.

I will tell you why I raise this: Wa have seen an

enormous effort made to keep our staff and keep this committee

fron finding out seally even fundamental things like the

budget of our intelligence conmunity.

I am trying to figure cut now nuch effort ie have put

into actually keeping the sc-called enemy from finding out

these

things.

How many of these thousande and thousands of foreign

agents whese you have spent millions and 2i11i0n6 o. collars

and thousands and thousands of man-years to catch, how many

have you caught? In the last sis nonths, latig say,

Mt. Walsh, M5. Field, as I indicated i0 the gentleno.

of the committee, here, I am not the Bureau's emper: in this

field. --

Me. Field. Have you a soughy ball pras: idea? Have you

caught, let's say, two?

Mr. Walsh. I dos't have a rough ball Dark i

Mr. Field. Have you caumbi thraa ouc of these thousaids?

MI. Walsh. I can't addrase mysall to that.

Mr. Field. Are you aware that the cia, the did, the

Armÿ: the Navy, the AlI Forco and NSa, all Have their

countorintelligena programs?

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5-02

Mx. Walsh.. I haven't acquainted myself with their

programs, six.

MT. FLeld.

Perhaps I can hely ccordinate the intelligence

conmunity, nere.

' Do you know how much they spend?

Mx. Walsh.

No, sir, I haven't the slightast idea.

Mr. Field. No you know if the CIA spends more chan you

tir. Walsh. I would cartainly think: so.,

MI. Edeld.

He could aain perhaps hele you, I will have

the staff afterwasis if you ilke giva you some idea of what

thoy are spanding becausa la night holp.

Do you kror how many they have laughe?

Mr. Huish, I haven't the slightes: idea.

Mro. Flaid, Do they seil you what: they aze doing in

general tasis, evan?

Mr. Walit:, We have liaison with sham, lc. Field, buc it

18 noi wides: my supervision and I canro: speak with any degree

of espertise on it

Nr. Ficid. Has anybody in the diminissration aver told

all of these people - who spend miti mulet millions of

dollars, over and over again - really' on the aine proguan

has anycody in the varnaculas of my generation, maybe, told

then to "get their act togetter'?

Mc. Walsh. I have no linowledge on thai, no, sir.

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MT... Fleld.

Ig

the real. reason that the FBI spends a

lot of money on counterintelligence perhapy not because they

are going after the same person CIA ie, because that probably

would be foreign - in it because the FBI, under the guise of

counterintelligence is really going after such foreign threats

as Angela Davis and that kind of thing? Is that really not

where most of the manpower and the money is going?

Mix. Walsh, No, sir.

MI. Field.. Thank you vary much.

Mx. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.

Chairman Pike. Ms. Poumerening, what is the iotal

budger for the Daparmant of Justice?

Mr. Pommerening. I believe ous estimates for the fiscal

1976 budget are $2, 013,000,000.

Chairman Pike.

That is close enongh.

• In the budget boos for fiscal yoar 1976 it saye that the

F'BI received, in 1974, 745,800 masters to investigate.

Don't

these investigations consticute gatharing intelligence on

American citizens?

Mr. Pornorening. The gross nunces: of maiters tich

DISI

received io lavestigate - of that gross number, the vast,

vast majority are violations of Federal. criminal statutes.

And in

Chairman Pike. You say the vast majorisy of investigations

constitute violations of rederal crimiral statutes. How many

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)

of your investigations are just the kind of background

Investigations that I had to get for every member of my stasi

sitting down here? Just background investigations of

American citizens?

Mr. Walsh. I would said if i may respore to thac,

Mr: Chairman, we had a survey which would eubruce thar and it

18 3.798 percent pi our efforos devoted to applicant matters.

Chairman Pike. Roughly 4 percent, then, or these

745,000 Investigations woulil be thai kind or investigation.

'is that right?

Mr. Walsh. Thet is Fidiot, ME. Cralemai.

Chaleman Pike. Out of these 745,340 criminal

investigations, how many vase submicted for prosecution?

Mr. Waist.

The 745,000-006 emba6c0d a1 03 403

investigations, not just criptal.

Chairman Pike. All right.

The vast majority of chase

are criminal investigations?

Mc. Walsh. Jes, sis, that 1a corsect.

Chairman Pise. Give me the munher. for many of then.

were crimina investigacions?

Nt. Kaish, I don't heve the nuance: ofchand, sir.

could take i guess at it.

Seventy-site perconi vould ba ly

9::03.9•

Chairman Piko.

so you haw? 25 percent - you have ituniy

150,000 Investigations which were concucted last year, which

..

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sere non-criminal

Investigations, is that corcect?

Mr. Walsh. I'd say so.

Chairman Pike. What were they all? Is only 3 or 4

percent of them ware these background invercigations? Whac

are you investigating besides crimes?

Mr. Walsh. He have jurisdiction over cercain civil

statutes, M=. Chairian. I regret I don't have a list of them

here.

Chairman Pike. Are 2o: the things you are inventigating

under thesa statutes supposuà to be crines? you investigate

people who have not commicted crimes: oiner than these

bacliground investigacions? As to which chora is no allegation

of crime?

• Mr. Walsi:. The principal Inventigative socivity that

we have is, Jased on an allegation of crime,. yes, sir.

Chairnon Pike. That I know, Du: I am salking about sie

one-fousth of them thas are not allegations of crime.

sand securiti

hi. walsh. The majesty of than are the acplicant ty?oy

Investigations.

Chairan Pike,

We have a atatistical problen here.

Under what authority, i. walsh, do you tate out a red

stamp and say that "this docunent shall ba seccat"?

sir. Walissi.

Thera are regulaticas promilgated by the -

Chairman Pike. Do you know what are the regulations?

Mx. Waish.

I san't

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Chairman Pike. What is your auchority to classily your

budget figures as secret?

Mr. Walsh.. An executive order, sir.

Chairman Pike. Do you know the sunber of the executive

order?

Mr. Halah. I don't..

Mx. Ponnerening.

Executive Oader: 11653, Mi. Chairman.

Chairan Pike. It says Mi. Walsh: may classify such

figures as he wishes to, as

secret, as far as the budget 1g

concerned. That is his authority.. I don'i mean to indicata he

is using this in an arbitrasy fashion, but

Mc. Permerening.

The executive order gives the Bureau

the authoriiy to classify icens of infomation, the

diasemination of which would be preiviicial to the nacional

security of the United States.

Chairman Pike.

National security of the United Biates.

Now is there any ocher

authoricy that lat. Walsh has i

which he can classify documents secret?

Mx. Pormeroning. No, sir.

Chaimon Pike. Whose judguent is di chas tha bulget

would be projudicial. to the rational security of the linited

Statas?

Mr. Penneraning. Mr. Chairman, the bulget of tha FBI 15

not in. total clasalfied.

Chairman Pike. Well any portion of it, ols the budgot.

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se Burcau..

Mc. Pommerei

•g.

The determination of

Chairman Pike. Mr. MCClory?

IX. MCCIOTy. Mr. Pommerening, you have undertaken an

In-house investigation of how to better evajuate your owr.

programs and to get better collar valve for the different

activities which are cariled on by the Federal. Bureau of

Investigation, have you not?

Mt. Ponterening. We are, yes:

Mt. MCClOry, And that was done juat recently. Well, it

Is completed isn't it? was there not an inveatigatio

undertaken by the FRE's inspection divicion se iti or

activities in April, March ind April ct this yeas?

Mr. Pormerening, the internal audit sisit of che

Department of Justice is unar my jurisdiccion It has

recently inliiated the firsi najor audi. thas has been made

on departmentel leval mihir the juriediction of the FBI.

The subjso of their revier is the inspection capacity ard

ability of the FBI.

M. NoCloty, The work has all been conpleted has ic not?

Nt. Po merening. The audit, I believe, nas been

completed.

Mr. Maciory.

You have not made that regor: aveliable

to our conmittee yet have you?

MI. Pomerening. I dor's believe I have gotia. it from

my scaff, ir. noclory.

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500 8

;)

Mi. McClory. Do you know when you are going to have it?

When you have it, we can have it, can we not?

Ponnerening.

Certainly.

Mr. MCClOry. Are you fanillar with the report on the

• Interagency Committee. on Intelligence os 1970, in which

•MC•

Hoovar participated?

Mx. Pommesening.

I am not.

Mx. Walsh. I am not, Me. MeClory.

Ms. Hicclory. That would be a secret dicument, but you

would have it in your possengion, would you noi, because

Mr. Hoover had one.

Would you get that and kould you lock it over pinase?

It has something in do with coordinating activicles. l. the

axed of intelligence.

Mould you do trat?

lix. Pornerening, Certainly.

Mr. Moclozy, Mould you rake that available is this

conmittes, ino? Bisce i know you have a copy. I all sot going

inito any of she desaile regarding it laü, you see, we are

trying to ges, really, at the crus of the problan and one of

the problems is thaï we have a lecrible lact of cocaination

betucen the intelliganca ageucies, includins the FBI.

We estabiished the Drut Enfoscenon: Agsuoy. That I woula

like to know is this: What has happarad as far as tha FRI's

interception, interdiction, whatever you call. it, of arus

traffickers as a result of this, since they have separate and

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Independent

authority to investigate and apprehend drug

traffickers? What I am concerned about is, maybe whai the

Congress does by developing nore agencies and more divisions

to attack particular problens, we really create problems

for ourselves by diapersing authority. Could you comment on

that?

sir. Parmierening.

The enfoscement of the Federal

criminal laws in the area of narcotics and dangarous drugs

is a discraat area of law enforcement and the Administration

and the Congress In their infinite wisdom have seemed 1t

appropriate it be handlec by a sepasate organizational entity

within the Departnent of justice.

Since the creation of the Drug Enforceugnt Adrinietzation

on fuly 1, 1973, our stait and its actiritios In supervizing

the budget: has been impressed by the good levels of liaison

and cooperation that exist secreen the sno organizations.

As I understand it, any intonation os any leade that the

Bureau surfaces in the pursuit of their other responsibilicies

are armediasely transnitted to DEA foi their appropriate

action.

* 'Ils

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• *

Mr. McCl

My Information 1s we

really had a

breakdown In apprehending the big drug traffickers. We are

getting more of the middle level drug traffickers and those

In the lower levels but some of the big operators in hard

drugs are not being detected the way they vere jus:

• few

years ago.

ment as sell?

Do youutilize the fIl In connection with arun enforce-

Mr. Pommerening. I would have to, Mi. McClony, go baek

and review some of my DEA materials in order to respond

with the degree of accuracy to wich I think you are entitled.

I did not do that prior to this morning's session.

Mr. McClory. I see my tine is up, Mir. Chalman.

Chairman Pike, Mr. Delluns.

Mr. Dellums. Mr. Chairman ard members of the committee,

while we are proczeding on our long journey in folion tha

dollars, what is really at issue here is the people's

frascion

specifically guaranceed by the Consticution and ths: Bill of

Rights to that

Constitution.

It sens to me here the question is whether or not ire

have already lost many of our freedoms through agorcles

ostensibly designed to protect shose precious freedoms on the

part of the people.

I have an FBI document dated 2126/71 to the Director

of the FBI frum the Special Agent in Charge, San Francisco.

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1279

The document regards a constituent of nine whose name I

slil not use.

The next to the last paragraph reads:

"Due to lack of Information and activities of subject,

San Francisco 1s not subnitting a sumnary report at this time.

Subject 1s not being recommended for inclusion on the security

Index as 1i is falt addicional investigation is required bfore

this evaluation can be reached."'

I would like -esponses to the following questions:

What is the security Index?

What was the authority for It?

1s 1t su1le in operation?

If not, when did ts end?

Was this operation ever discussed with Congress or OME?

Did the budgs's show funds for this operation?

Please provide full files and data to this committee.

I hare, Mr. Chairman and members of the commitice, another

document hera dated 1/21/71, to all ajents, fxem SeC, Postland,

subjact F9l Intelligence letter for the Provident, code name

sInter

Fesearch Satellite macter. I would like or read

sone short parts of this.

"For information of ali agoncs. The bureau, during 1969

Initiated captioned programs of furnishing high level

Intolligence date in the sec wisy fleid to the Prasicent and

the Attorney General on a continuing basis. The materials

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to be furnished

the Bureau 1i not of rou

he natura but

rather that which has the qualliy of importance anc timeliness

necessary to secure the President's interest and to provide

him with meaningful Intolligence for his guidance.

"The Bureau. is not interested in more rumors or nebulous

Information."

It goes on to describe such incelligence including che

following listed in Item No. 5:

"Itons with an unusual twist, or concerning prominent.

personalities nich may be bi special interest to the President

or the Attorney Gonusal. I' 1s to be nosed that ite

type of.

Information desired In paragh 6 may be obtained through

investigations ico sholly rolated to the security lield.

I would like to ask:

Who authorised "INLET!"

Is INLET still. in operation?

Did it include political intellzence?

Has the FBI ever gathored political intelligence?

when; for whor?

Please provide for the

conminceo full files:

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, ic follow

on the questions of Mr. McClory:

The FBI has hired a signi.:icant number o? informants.

I would like to focus for a moment on & case that spesks to the

use of funds, method of operasion and the capability of audii.

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Ax-4

I would not use spacific names.

The gentleme from the FBI, I am sure, can verily this

narrative.

In the early 1970s a former member of the Minutamar

Organization was recruited

as an FBI Informer. He was. the

leader of a Right-Wing organisation called "Che Secrat Army

Orgenization."

The prime function of the informer was

to surveil an

harrass

activists.

While on the FBI payroll at $200 per north, plus

expenses, the Infornant participated in bombings and burglaries.

During one of the burglaries a gun was scolen. Some days later

that gun was fired at the house of an activist shattering the

elbow of a young women. The inforues was in the car from which

the gun was fired.

The Infornant took the gun and gave it to nis FBI contact.

The agent hid the gun under his couch for aiù mochis 1n611.

• the SAO mender who did the shooting vas apprehended by 10001.

police. The Incident finally sosü me agent his job.

Duriny this sane period the incontes puhlished at loast

indirectly us FBI expense these two very interesting Gems:

•I. Booby trap. A nov-to trestise.

No. 2. The use of anmonium nitreve in high emplosives.

• I would assume en discredit the progressive 0011:1021

community in this country.

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1282

¡I hope this committee will look fully into tila matter.

I kould like to ask the FBI representative 1: he 1s

familiar with the case

and wishes to conment, but with a

preface of several questions.

How many informers does the FBI have?

How many informers in the last decade have been found

to have participated in lavless acts while informants?

How much money 1s budgated for irformants?

What kind of controls are there on informers?

What authority and isgulations sovering use of informers

do we have?

Ars

thera

now FBI counterintelligence prograns that

utilize incormers?

I would ask the gentleman to please provide :or this

committea iul1 data

and infornacion.

I hate also before me

a manorancun, FbI, dated 5/9/&0,

to W. G. Sullivan from C. D. Brannan. Subject: Councer

Intelligence program, Internal Security, Disruption of tre New

Left.

I would lIke

to read the first paragraph:

"Our nation is undergoing an era oû disruption and

violence caused to a large ontent by various indiv: duals

genarally concerned with the New Left. Sore of thuse acciviss

urge revolution In merica and call for the detees of the

United Staies in Vietnam. They continually hava :alsely

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..*

alleged police brutality and do not hesitate to utilize unlawful

acts 80 further their so-called causes.

The New Left has. on many occasions viciously and scurrilous-

Iy attacked the Director of the TBI in an attempt to hamper

• our investigation of.It and to drive us off college campuses.

With this in nind, it is our recommendatior that a new

counterintelligence. program be designed

to neutzalaze the New

Left and the key activists.

- The key activists are those individuals who are

the moving forces behind the New lett and upon won we have.

Intensified our investigations.

I wondes 1i the progran was started because the

DiTOCtOR WES

calles nanss.

I have also a Cointel paper dated 3/4/68 to all.

agents in charge from the Director of FBI entitled "Counter.

Intelligence Prograns, Black Natioralist Hate Groups, Racial

Intelligence."

I would lile to read a pars or it:

"2. To prevent the rise of a Messiah iho could unify

and electrify the militant black natioralisi nevement"- end

I leave out names

88

might hare been such a Messiah."

"He is the martys of the movement joday.

and

all spire to this position.

threat because of his age.

is less of a

Is to be & very real

contender for this position should he abandon his proposed

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-obedience to wh

liberal doctrines, non-?

lenca and

embrace black nationalism.

has the charisma to be a

roal threat in this case.

I characterize this as an extranely racist

and extremely

dangerous and 1t is appalling thai an agency of the government

charged with the responsibility to defend the delicate rights

of human beings in this couniry would ever embark upon this

kind of statement.

I have papers that show that an operation Cointel

program

to Include barrassront, disinformation, sarrantless

entry,

unauthorized access to bank records, dofanation and

illegal mail coverage.

I rould like to ask for inll files on Cointel and the

folloving quastions.

Does FBI have any intelligence on counters-intelligence

programs pregently inder way?

If sc, what are they?

• Did FBI have a counterincelligence progran to pit

Black Panthers against organiaed crims?

"What is the FBI's role in CONARO program, code worl

"Garden plot?"

Plaase I'urnish full file.

Does the FBI cheate in Canada 1n any role beyond

liaison?

• Has the FBI ever prov.ced confidential information to

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it -8

ITT?

Within the last decada has FBI initiaiad any Intelligence

or countarintelligence programs against labor unions?

Has the FBI ever attempted surreptitiously to monitor

the defense effores of a federal defendent?

Has te FBI, any agent or infornant ever authorized.or

directed, suggested or participated in an assassination or such

an attempt?

Has FBI ever initiated any operations or afforts agalass

radlo stations, news servicos

•or neuspagers?

Has the FBI ever sought or obtained illegal

aeces.s

bank records?

Has the FBI aver participatad in surreptitious entry

operations?

JEK ACt 6 (1) (B)

Has the FBI ever participated in rail covars?

Is there any IBi progrem against AIM, the Anerican Indiar:

Movenient?

Explati fully the specide Oparation COiNTEL Frogran.

Are similar prograns now in extetsre?

Ploase furnish files.

Were COINTEL DrOgraMS

diseussed with biB, ine Actorney

Gangral or Congress prior to their Iniciation?

What authority was there for arpesditure of funds and

manpower for cOIntel?.

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1286

What Is the and has been the. FBI relationship with the

Xell Telephone Company and ITT?

Please furnish all files.

What as the for Enforcement Intelligence Whit?

Does It mainiain files on U. S. citizens?

What was the authority?

Does it pass information to State and Local agencias?

How is this progran funded?

Now, with respect to DEA. Please explain the full

nature aná scope of

JEK Act 6 (1) (B)

Give the commitee full data.

Explain Opezation Silver Dollar and the relationship

of the Drug Enfosesment Agency offless and Me. Howard Hughas.

Please give this committee al1 ata.

How many -

Chalrman Piko, The tine of the gentlemar has expired.

Nr. Dollums. Thank you; Mr. Chairmer.

Chairman Pike, Did you rish

to make any response?

Mr. Walsh.

I cannot make a response, sir.

I started to sake some uoses, biù : am inadequate in

that regari and I would like to suggest, if it is agreeable

to the chair, that she queations he sabmittod to us in waiting..

Chairman Pile.

That certainly will be done in tha

manner.

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Mr. Walsh.

Thank you, s1r.

Chairman Pike. Mr. Murphy.

• Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Walsh, or Mr. Pommerening, recently the head of the

Justico Department relieved Mr. John Barbels as head of the

DEA. Subject to an investigation on cha Senate side, the

Jackson Subconmittee on Investigations, one of che charges

made by that committee was that there was "endonic corruption"

In the DEA.

My question do you, aa auditors of the Justice Depersment,

DEA and FBI, I underaiand a lo, silferman, who is nor our

Ambessador i0 Yugoslavia, on ine occasions undertook to

Investigate No. Johr Banteld and the charges leveled against him.

My incornatior Is said to ba ches Mr. silferman found

no corruption on Mr. Barbels' part. What have you, 1l aryching,

found In you: auditing of the DIA that would indicate there ras

corruption 1n ihe DIA under Mr. Barrels: leadership?

Mr. Pomezening. None of the contacts of my staff has

Indicased ine presenca of any corruption.

• Mc. Murphy. I didn't bear thai.

Hir. Pormerenirg. None of the acrüles o my stact, in

their several responsibilitles in vosking with DEA, gives ne

any reason to believe there was corsition of any kind, endomic

or otherwise, in DEA.

Ms. Murphy. So there was no corcuption and your stali

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dt-11

would know, 1s

right?

Mr. Pommerening. I didn't say that, Mi. Murphy.

We audit the programs, me audit the budgetary requests,

we auilt the finances.

Mr. Murphy. You also audit any money they would have

to use to pay their Informants, would you not? Did you find

anything these?

Mr. Pommerening. No, we did not.

Mr. Murphy. Did you find anything as far as corruption

In regard to their payroll?

Mr. Pormerening. No, sir.

Mr. Murphy. Did you find anything with regara to

corruption involving foreign travel?

Nr. Ponnerening, No.

Mr'. Murphy. In the maintanance and runing of any of

their fores gn offices?

Mr. Fonnerening. No.

No. Murphy. In the maintenanes on running of any acmestic

officos:

Ne. Fonnoroning. None of my audit activities

No. Murpny. I want to make sure we are sovesing everything

your audit would cover, Mr. Pomeroning.

In other words,

ninety per cent of the DEA's work is aone

through money coming from the budgot, is that correct?

Mr. Fommerening. Me. Muryny, me ere not in a posture of

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continuous audi

n any one of the organize

cong in the

deaprement. He hava an audlt starf of 52 people covering all

organizations In a 50,000-man depariment. Our audits are, at

Intervals, divided between special acuivities or prograns in

the organization.

Mc. Murphy, How often would you audit DE's books?

Mr. Pommerening. In their totality?

Mr. Hurphy. In any part. Any part.

At least once a

year?

Mr. Pommarening. No, s1x.

Mr. Murphy.

You don't audit thai often?

Mr. Pomnerening. Absolusely not.

Mr, burphy. What is your proceiure fos auditing?

Mr. Fomnerening. Our procedure is to make audies si

• selective programs and ic we

can achieve a three-year cycle,

we would ba very happy. We have not seen able to do thai..

Nor have our audits in the sase of DEl or any organization

In the department covered the totality of the operation.

Mr. Murphy. Do you know anything about the investigation.

Mr. singerman undertook of the DEA?

Mr. Fonnerening, I do 10%.

Mr. Murphy. Do any of you gentlemon?

How about you, Mr. Walsh?

Mr. Walsh. I do not, sir.

Mr. Murphy. Could we sat that Information?

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Mr. Walsh. I know nothing abou's it, sir.

Mr. Murphy. Could you ask?

Mr. Ponnerening. I would suggest if the committee

wanted the file thoy would be advised to direct a request, to the

• Deputy Actorney General.

Meo Murphy. Ino in the FBI would we bring before inis

comnittes when we are looking for whethar or not there is a

connection between NSA and its Intelligonce-gathering activicies

and FBI? I untarstand you people are. nor in that line of work.

Mr. Walsh. I would suggest chei Assistant Director

Wannall would be the proper individual.

Mr. Murphy. the Assiatani Diractor?

Mr.Walsh. Yas sir.

Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Ni. Chairman.

That is all the

questions I have.

Chairnan Pike. I will say to che gentlemen the Directo

would Inow abous it toc. We might even ask him.

14X497119.

Mr •Aspin.

Thank you,

Ni. Chairman.

I Would like to ask the gentleman a couple of questions

abont where the authority comes fron for doing some of she

things chat are baing done.

For example, you know in tha

Cll the authority for te

CIA's activities are that 1947 Act mich laya out cortaln

kinds of provisions.

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The authority

for the National Securi

Agency getting

Involved that very sparet exscutivo order untch ve tinally

were able to get..

Where 1s the authority for the üustica Department and the

IBI to get involved in things like intennal security and

counterespionage? Where does that arise?

Mr. Walsh. I haven't that information, Mr. Aspin.. I

would be glad to respond in writing. I do not have it in my

memory.

His Aspin. Doos anybosy you hars brought with you know

where this comes from?

Where in the law is there authority for the FBI and she

Juscice Deperiment to do these kinds of inveligations?

Or which exocutive order? Where is the charter for whas

you are doing? Where is the authorlo!?

Mr. Pornerenung. Mr. Asch, I have a long serios of

statutory references covering in general the arsas in which

you are expressing interess.. I can juss road eone of them --

and they are scattered through this long document. I wasn't

aware you night be asking that specific question so I did not

pull them together. If you would lie to taka tha time for me

to page through this and cice them, I will. Otherwise, I will

put chem in she record in an orderly fashion.

Mr. Aspin.

Provide it for the record If you can.

Mr.

Fommerening. We do have a statutory seference to

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avars one of the programa shich we vien

authority.

(The Information follows:)

our grant of

(COMMITTEE INSERT)

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Mr. Aspin.

What kind of statutory reference is it? Is

It a law, an executive order in general? What kind of things

are you talking about?

Mr. Pommerening. There are various federal statues

Ineluding rebellion and Insurraction, Title 18, U.S. Code

2383.

Ms. Aspin. Does li mention the Justice Department and

FBI?

Mr. Pommerening. I haven't the full test here, Mr. Aspin.

Mr.Aspin. As me are noù going to be aole co do it. in

this kind of discussion, perhaps the best thing to do is jusi

provide that information that you have for the record.

Mr. Ponmerening. I would be very happy to make an

orderly compucation,

Mr. Aspin. What I am parsiculerly interested in 13,

what gives FBI the authority to, sor sample, conduct inuel-

ligence operations within organizations which have not committed

a crime? I understand there are certain authorlbies where you

suspset souaone of committing a crine.

FBI feals they can investigato organisitions which have

not broken the law. I'd lie to know from where that authority

comes.

Mx. Pomnerening.

jusilfication.

"The Information tollows:)

He would be happy to gire you ou

(COMMITTEE INSERT)

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Mr. Aspin.

Let me ask another question: The FBi.

essentlally does three different kinds of things. Is does,

for example, security chacks of the kind where, you know,

somebody needs a security clearance to get a job, or get a

socurity clearance in order to receive clausified information

from government agencies and that lind of thing. It a1e0 does

criminal surveillance and it also does non-crininal surveil-

lance, like the check up on antiar groups and other shings to

keep an eye on shem.

When you have those three things and have them all mixed

together, is thore a way to keep those separate? in other

words, the flles being done on people for security checks,

do they get nised in with other files? Is there any

procedure to make

sure those things are separate!

As 1 under

stand, lt le she same kinds of psopie which are doing the same

checks in many rases.

Mr. Walsh. The files, Mr. Aspin: are maintained in the

files

and

of the Comunications DIvision,

Mr. Aspin. Which files do you now speak of?

Mr. Walsk. All files.

Mr. Aspin. They are kept in whai ofrice

Mr. Walsh. Files and Conmunications Division of the

FB]..

Mr. Aspin. All files on anybody. It you did a security

check on San Jones to get a job, that would de kept sy that

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division as well

as if you were doing a check on somebody

because you thought they were the reople who were involved in

a bank robbery,

Mr. Walsh, Maintained according to classification.

Each type -

Mr. Aspin. How do those classifications work and now

are

they kept separate?

Ms. Walsh. They are in chronological order. For

example, Classification 1 deals with the National Academy

and Training Matters as to a1l investigations.

Mr Aspin. When you have a Classification No. 1, 1s

there any reason why somebody can't transfer intoration iron

one category to another? For exampie, a file done or

somebody which is just a sheer securily check kind of file, what

would prevent thai fron being added in another information

picked up sonewhere else?

Vir. Walsh. Nothing, sir.

Mr. Aspin. Nothing would prevent that?

Mr. Valsh.

Nothing.

Fir. Aspin.

So in fact it could happen?

Chairman Pike.

The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mr. hasten.

Mr. Raston. Nr. Wolsi, dous ãa: include state and

local police budgets or the money yor spend ith state and local

police in lis overall FBI beget?

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underciter.d

Mr.

Walsh. I am sorry, sir, I aon't get the question.

Mr. Pommerening. The answer 1s yes, Mr. Kasten.

Mr. Kasten, How is it Included in the budget?

147. Pommerening. nIne primary category

where FBI

budgeted funds are used for law enforcoment purposes 15 in the

training of state and local law enforcement people in

Quantico.

Mr. Kasten.

Do you use state and local police to collect

Intelligence? Spacillcally for wiretepping or surveillance?

Mr. Walsh. No, sis, not to my knowledge.

Mr. Kasten. Is it not a fact you have used District of

Columbia police for wizetapping?

Mr. Walsh.

I have no knowledge of that. I am completely

uninformed

ignorant on it, sir. I don't know.

Mr. Kasten. If this was in faci going or, one of the

reasons may be that the state and icc.l

laws are sometimes loss

restrictive in areas of wiretapping and

surveillance than the

Federal lair.

Mr. Welsh.

I san't respond to tral, sir. I have

no

knowledge in that fiela.

ils.

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Are

Me. Rasten.

ARe you aware of the existence of a school in

Fort Lauderdale, Florida, known as the National Intelligence

Acadeiny?

Mr. Walsh. No, sir.

Mr. Kasten. Me. Pomerening?

Mr. Ponmerening. I an not aware of it, Mr. Rasten.

Mr. Kasten. There is a sign on the receptionist's desk

in that academy: "U.S. Government regulations pronibit

any discussion of this organization, or this facility." Do

you know anything about this at all?

•Mc. Ponerening. I do not.

Me. Walsh.

I do not.

Mr. Kasten.

it is run evidently by a Jack. Roicomo,

ino has been working with the NEA. He has pabliciy boasted

of being concacied by FBl to handle "zaything the Feds won't

touch." In the past sixceen months, she National Intelligence

Academy has been teaching sophisticated skilis of electronie

spying to tany officers, including two foreign nations.

From the quote in Newsweek liagazine, lie is worling with che

FBI.

Are you anare of this?

Mr. Walsh.

I am not aware of this in any way, sir.

Mix. Kasten. Then I can't ask you whether you contract

with them undei any circuiscaaces, or where ihose funds would

be, coule 1i

I wonder if we could ask, Mr. Chairman, that they rasearch

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this?

Chairman Pile. I think perhaps the gentleman could

respond as to where the funds would be if they did contract

with chem, even if he is not aware of it.

Mr. Walsh. Mr. Chairman, we have no contract wich n

organization of that name, I can tell you that. The contracts

come under uy jurisdiction. I heve never hard the name, sir.

Mr. Kasten, Let me go back to the question of working

with local goverments in training and other kinde of

says.

3

}

When we talk about the cost of Federal intelligence,

are you satisfied that the work chat tales place in stata

and local govermants, coordinating with the FET in suma

cases with wiretapping, os surveillance, is tha- being

restocted in addicion to tha training money?. Do you deny

any of this coordinacion goes on?

Mx. Waloh.

No, sis; we have no cooperativa effort to get

local polica to place wiretaps in oss behale, if that is what

the question is, sir.

Mx. Kasten.

It is clear to me it: one case you have been

working with state and local. police, and what I am interested

in is whethe: or not this worl which 1 believe is going in

with. state and lical police should be reflected somewhere in

the overall FEI Judget, In codition ic the raining?

Mr. Walsh. If we could respond to chac, M.. Kaster, in

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3

writing, I would be pleased to prepare a response.

I. an just

Ignorant on the subject.

Mr. Kasten, . Thänk you, fir. Chairman.

I yield back the

balance of my time.

Chairman Pile. I just want to say on behalf of ir. Walsh,

that In fairness to Mr. Walsh, ve did indicate that the basic

thrust of our questioning today would pertain to budgetary

matters. I realize that a greac deal of the questioning has

run sone distance froa that. When you say, as you have too

often - don't keep using the words "I an ignorant of these

matters", just say, "It doesn't come within my jurisdlction."

It sounds a lot nore classy:

It is fais to you to say thai re recogrice that this does

not all come within your jurisdictica.

Nix. Milford?

Mr. Walsh. Thank you, Mc. Chaleman,

Mr. Milford. Thank you, Me. Chairtan.

Chairman Pile,

Does the gentleman yiala for à parlia-

mentary inquiry?

Mx. Milford.

Yes.

Ms. Deilums. I would llie to ask, are the questions

that I raised to be submitted for the secoré!

Chainen Pilie. Oh, yes.

Mr. Milford. I have no specific questions, but I tould

like to make just one short statement shat kind of bothers me

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a little bit. There seems to be kind of a new fad that is

very populer with some of our citizens and even a few of our

colleagues in Congress that would seeniagly paint our intelli-

gence cormunisy as "guys with black hats"

The premise seans to be that anything that is secret 1s

bad.

The sensational revclation in the Watergate episode and

a few illegalities discovered within ous police and intelli-

gence agencies have furthered this blacie-hat imaga.

I think it is important for us to keep a proper perepaç-

tive and recogniza a few facts of lifu. Thare are

elements operating within this countzy that pose a definite

threat to our society and to our governmental system. These

elements do not respect humn rignts. They do 20c respect

laws nor civil rights, or any other principles of our demo-

cratic system.

ME. WaL3z.

Whale I would not In any way want to deny

any American citiver his dua process or the procoction oi our

divisive

laws, we must also realize that the fiversive elements will

use these same laus to hide thel acsivicies. the job of

our intelligence conmunity is very alfficul:, yet very vital.

I think that the Congross mat recognius that society,

as a whole, has the right to sxist ind to be procected. We

have a narrow lize to walk in, being sure that our lais

protect both the society and the indiridual.

While neither this Commictee nor I would tolerate illogal

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1301

activities within our police or intelligence agencies, I would

not went to conder the thousands of loyal employees in

these agencies because of tha acco of a few.

Frenkly,

as an ex-police officer some years

back, I have

the highest respect for the Federal Buceau of Investigation.

I think it has an outstanding record, and I would not want any-

one to feel that I, for one, feel that ic is wearing a black

hat.

Mr. McCloEy. Would the genclaran yield?

Me: Mils05d, I ricle.

Mr. McClory. I thank the gentleman for yielding, and I

want to concur ir, the scatement chat the gentleman has made.

I would also like, to add that, you knon, any of my inquiries

which tend

to best tie activicies où the expenditures of funds

or inquiring into vhat might be regarded as excessea, or

Improper actions, should not be interprated as any lack of

respect for the legitimate and extremely important function

of the FBI and the ocher agencies, Including all the intelli

gence agencies.

your cumnient

Mi. Milford. I will join rich you in

tha inquiry.

think ve ahould probe sad probe deeply, bur at the same tine

I wouldn's lile tha impression to go out thai all is bad ir

the sicuation.

I yield barl: the balance of my tine, Mi. Craisan.

Mr. Formerening. Thank you.

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!

Chalman Pike.

Me. Hayes.

Mr. Hayes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mir. Pomerening, since your havirg assumed your present

responsibilities in August of 1974, approximately a year ago,

can you tell me how nany audits your internal audit section.

has completed under. your direction?

Mr. Pormerening. Off the cop of my head, Mc. Hares, I

cannot.

Mr. Hayes, Are you sesponsible for delineating the audits

how they are perceived, and in that pecticular section they

are perceivad, whether or nos they are to be directed to a

special activity or a program?

Mr. Poumerening. I have a generel responsibility. How-

ever, it has been my policy to cloche the intemal audit

staff with a large reasure of auconomy so they can move on

their own notion into areas where, by coason of their working

with the organization, they think there is a problem that

should be reviewed.

There are cocasions where there are special program

areas or subareas which come to my attention, which I feel

wartant some seviey, in which case will review the matter

with the Directos of the aucit stafe and he will generally,

at my direction, nove into that area.

Mr. Hayes. Within you? specific responsibilities, ther,

have you hai occasion to have brought to your actention by

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part of the audit staff, any internal audit section work with what

we have been discussing generally as the intelligence responsi

bilities of the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. Pamnerening. No.

Mr, Hayes. So during at least thai period of time there

have been no audite undertaken by the Intemal Audit Seccion?

Mr. Pomerening. To this point the activity of my staff in

the FBI -- and I referred to this eariier - has been to under-

take and, I belleve, ao I think Mr. McClory mentioned, they are

almost at the conclusion of an audit uf the inspection and

Internal audit capacity of the Federal. Bureau of Investiration.

Mi. Hayes. Repeat that. You say there is a special

report being done or: the internal audit capacity of the fBi?

Mr. Ponmarening. That is corcest.

Mr. Hayes.

The diracted thac to be mdertaken?

Mi. Fommurening. I did.

Mr. Hayes. . Die you do that in response to spacific

requests from the Attornay General?

Mr. Ponnerening. "No, sir.

Mix. Hayes.

De, your oun motion, then?

Mr. Fonnerening. Yes, sir.

Nt. Hac.

To your knowladge that is the first me of

those in the history of theißi?

Mr. Ponnerening. Yes, it is, in that crea. There has

been one other audit we have conducted in the FBi, and that

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1304

was a part of the Department-wide audit.

Prefacing that coument I wist say the internal audit

staff in the Departnent of Justice did not exist until June of

1970, and it has been developed from a zero resource organiza-

tion

Ма. Недез.

So, in other words, that audit is sometima

between 1970 and the presens?

Mt. Ponmerening. There is another audit as part of a

Department-wide review, and that is an audic of what is know

as the confidential funds iù the FBI, which is an anual

appropriation of $70,000 that cen be dispensed --

Mr. Hayes. That is two audits.

Can you tell me whether of not you have been directed by

anyone to radice your internal audit start due to precsures

of inflacion or due to Presidencial dizestivas to save money

and economize?

Mr. Pennerening. That Is not trie. It has never been

suggested to me. This is the first tine. I have heard that.

Mr. Hayes. I have just inquired. Have you?

Mr:. Pouneraning. No. As a matter of fact, the staff

has grown continucusly.

Mr. Hayes. Do you have inderway at the present time

alovesions da speclele audles of the fatelligenca faceton

that are to be undertaken in the future, either in conjunction

with the general Congressional overview of intelligence

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1305

activities, or for any other reason?

Mc. Pormerening. Ix. Hoobler's staff has In recent months

done some work with the Criminal division in evaluating and

assisting them in the program of organized crime intelligence.

In addition, in my organization I have an Informacion

Systens stafs charged with reviewing all automated data

processing and telecommunication progiams within the depart-

ment. Sone of these, of course, pertain to the intelligence

efforts of some argmizatioas in the departnent. Beczuse of

the very particular area of expertise there, the primary and

in-depth reviows and audits are handled by that staff, and

they are ongoing la organizations within ins depranent.

Mr. Hayes. By that staff of Mc. Hoobler?

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Mr. Pommorening.

1306

No, this is the Information Systems

staff.

Mr. Graino (preSIding). .The genitenan fron Colorado

is recognized for five minutes.

Nx. Johnson. vir. walsh, when you establishes there

was no congressional direction of vere the FBI spendo funds

ox how it spends them or really if shere was any interesi on

the parc of the Conczess, I would like to know wno males the

decisiona with respect io how much noney will be spanc in

the intelligence ficia, end in counterintelligence?

Thay

Mt. Waish. Iroula gay het nould be nade by tha

Direntos of rbi in consultation vien to Eracutivel Conference.

Mi. Johnson, Sino constitutes she Hrecutira, Confecence?

Mr. Falsà. The Brecutive Contemence is composed of the

13 Assistent Directors, each ef thon hends a division, and

chore ane ina fosistanto to the linsciong, oca of masa is

ena+

In charge of all adninistrative matter*r

The: other is in

charge of all investigablue matters, and thas dne Ascociace

Director, Me, Callaran, and Mi, Relajo Compino is Breciano

Conferonce

MI, Johnson. It this level is thate aug inout from the

Director oû Contral Intellégence?

Mr. Malsh. At that lovel, sis?

ME. comson. then you are start: ny to lase. up your

budget and ara alicating te amount lf moncy you vanü is

.

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8-2

put in'60 your budget for. intelligence and counterintelligence,

do you have any contaci with the Director of Central

Intelligence?

Mr. Walsh. Yes,

s!,. Ar. Wenall's division. He Is the

Assistant Director in charge of the Incalligence Division wich

has liaison with the Directos of Centra: Intalligence.

Mx. Johnso?.

What do you nean when you say they have

Ilaison? They get togethez for costed once in a while, or

do they have continuing sontzct? Does he talk to the Director

of central Intelligonce of does he talk to his secretary o

to his assistant?

thas actual consoci: de thay hava in coordinate

this spending? does the bizector of Central Intelligenoe

say "We necd is have son spond this mich money or do this kind

of activity"?

Ms. Halsh.

shs: specific decsile or theis ralationahip,

Mr. Johnson, I am not acquainced wish.

KI. Johnson, How abou: the Actorney Carezal, Joss he have

any input. inco

this budget mating process?

Mr. Ponnezenine, I voula like do cespord to chac.

Mr. Walsh has densribed slerents of the procass within tie

Bureau. Afcer they have made cheir decominationd and mile

a submission to the Deparinant basel ipon the vary complicaced

aria

definitive program structure which i described to you

Barliel, ti is then reviewed in my osfice.

guestiong or issues

are isolated and the major ones are brought. to the attencion of

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8=3

the Atcorney Genecal and the Deputy Attorney General who

then raview them of may confer with me and my staff,. they

may contex with Director kelley and his staif, and nale final

juagments of their own as to the appropriate allocations of

resources for the Bureau's activities which aze then

arcorpozated in the departmencal budget tha: is sukalited

to the office of kanagement and Budget.

Mr. Johnson. jou participate in this process, yourself,

thes?

Mi. Ponmerening.

Yes, I do.

ME. Johason.

You went over in decail the anount of

monsy they allucated for intelligence artivities?

Ms.. Ponmarening. I can'c ansues thet mithous naing

the time inane nose precise.

I cried to illuscrase

the ract

that she departmentel lavolronent la tale pussass too

escalated

rapidly over the lasi three years. Tha: involrenent three

years ago van not nearly as intense and as rigorons

as is is

today.

Mr. Jonason.

so three years ago me will say there vas

in effect litila ox sone?

Mr. Ponneroning. Much less.

Mr. Johnson. How much time did vos spend analyaing the

arount of money that is going into intelligerce activities

and what detail you are going into then?

Mr. Ponnatening. What year?

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B-

Mr. Johnson. This year.

MI. Ponnorening, This year in developnent of the fiscal

year "7? budget, it. Johnson

MI. Johnson. I an just referring nor to the intelligence-

gathering activities bacause that is the scope of this

investigation as you know.

..

ix. Pornerening. four or live of ny people spent four

weeks of long days revieriny the FBI budget and in ascessing

their time connicment I would thial thai probably bain of chat

devoted to a review of the intalligence programe that

exisi in the fBi.

Mr.. Johnson. So iben you senioved sher and then chat

went to the Attorney General?

Hc. Foumarening, It has not you.

Ma, Johnson, Eut it wili in the prosass?

MI, Posneroning. It mili.

Air. Johnack.

dow when you go so 0'b they don': really

take a close, has look at it and say "jali, we shilli maybe

you are duplicating"?. They obviously baren'è sime so: chai:

de thay?

Mr. Sonnerening.

Fley haven't the resources to derote is

it Chat I do.

• Mi, Johneon. Loes the Precident have acy inpus into this?

Has he any iuoledge as to that CIA ard FBI are doing in this

kind of donascio intelligence?

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1NS6R7

ATTACH

1310

MX. Ponteren

I car'i speak for Pres

dent Ford.

Ax. Giaimo. The time of the gentleman has expiced.. The

gentleman from Florida is recognized for five minuies.

It. Lehman. Thank you, Ms. Chairnan. •

I mentioned befoe fatty Hearst and Jimmy Hoffs and you

indicated that was basically en investigative type of operation

not intelligence.

to clarisy that ear you give ns a ball pack

figure on how much you have spent os Fatcy. Heasst, whether ic

15/500,000 o3/20 million of shat? can you sius ne a rough

idea, on that invessigation:

Mc. Walsh. In response to that, Is:. Lohnan, the

principai expenditure is manpower. If vo were to compute the

salaries of the agents sorking en that. - if you ara asking

for en "oft the top of my boad" figure, I mould say haif a

million dollars at lesai, to date, but lian murs the infinatio for

Mi. Lohman. Os course I think just foon: what vos read

in the papers, it mat have boen several tines that much

money in my mind but what I au trying so get ac is that os

that, it i1u al1 investigatira empenditures but don' rou

gather an awful loi of intelligenes irformasion that yoes

into part of your intalligence proguer that iss' seally

covered by this rather modest $82 million intelligence budyet?

What Ian trying io say is thai investigation costs cover: a

lot of your Intellicenca couts and by transterring these

operations; or transferzing the resulls of these operations;

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(The information follows)

Following the initial and major thrust of the

Hearst investigation, cost figures collected on a one-time

basis disclosed that

o Magues

$2.6 million had been

expended by the FBI on the case.

as of May 5, specific figures as to the

cost of this investigation have not been collected since that

time.

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are you not really spanding a lot more for intelligence than

1s indicated in the $82 miliion?

Mx. Walsh: It gats dorn to a question of definicion and

what you say is certainly true but there is no way to conpuce

that.

'KI. Lehman. I think. I have made my point that perhaps

fron the standpoint of astuality, $32 million doas not include

your whole intelligence budget..

Let me go back to wai in. Pike vas talking about in the

statistics in regarc. to the rumbes of files that you have.

I think you said there vere 100,0o0 active files.

MT. Wolah. Mo, sir, these are investigative natters

received. Tars were many more times than that.

Mr:. Leman. You have trai many

OVEr 6

(the Filesand Communications Dinsion oz

Mr.. Walsh. Thars are St n112203 miss in Ba 1i-anssome

so million tader cardo I believe.

Mc. Lehnan.

Mat do you. call those that you sad the

700,000 0n$

dx.

walsh.

investigasive matters reccired in a

• [iscal

yea::.

No. Lehman. In thosa arrestigative ratters you said

percent

%Yregardoй criminal Invessications apposinstay appeosinsidy-25,002-

75 percent, Abori & percent were security clearneces and the

other 20 or 21 percant vere all others that vere basically

nesthor criminad not security-type investigations..

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8-7

would those

all others" include such

wes as perhaps

Joan Baez, or Jane Fonda, or citizens that have not committed

a crime and have not applied for security clearance? I

wonder what is in that other 20 percent and what is the

authority fos pursuing this kind of activisy?

Mt. Walsh.. I can't tell you with specificity, sit, but

every individual that wa have acquired information on in

pursuance of our mission: could very Illely have a file oper.

Mx. Lenman. Aza there any Congressmen in those

particulas files?

Mr. Walcho: I believe chore are files on Congressner,

sir, and I think we have reported the recitic sumber in

another forum, I haven't thai statistic with no bai we have

repoited that number.

Mr. Lehman. Can I ask you à vosy parsonal, guestiona

Mr. Walsh. Cortainy.

Mx. Lehman. An I in there?

NI. Walsh, i don'e know that, siz.

Mi: Lehman. Could you let me know?

Mr. Walsh. I inagine I sould, sir, yes.

Ms. Lenman. If you did have one, conid i see ice

Nt. Walsh. I con't answar that because there are

procedures shat have to be followed -

Mt. Lennian.

I am not trying to make this a personal

thirg. but I am trying to relace it to what in the basis for

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this kind of activity.

Mr. Walsh, Under the "Exeedon of Infosmation Act",

Mr. Lehman, I would assume that your file and anyone else's

file is available.

Mr. Lehman, All these files you have, anyone could see

if they request the information in shit tila?

Mr. Walsi. Ine terne and regulations undes: the "Freedom

of Information act" are very technisul.

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•y 2

Mt. Lehman.

these noncriminal and

insecurity

clearances - i think this has been asked kefore but I woula

Like to ask it again: what is the legal jussification for

this activity?

on that legal basis do you acquire this

information?

Mc. Walen.

Security clearances are pursuant

Execubive Order. I would like so rention, sir, the vast

majority of those investigations, the preponderant majoricy

of them, are not conquoted by the FaI. They are conducted

• by the civil Sorvice Cormiszion.

Mr. Giaino. The time of the gentleman has empired.

Mx. Walsh, can you cell us how much the FBI aperas

on computers, hardware and all that is encompassed wichia

the expenditures for computers?

Mi. Walsh. We have those figures,

Mix, Chairman

Whether we have them with fatt or not I sen's tell.

• you buc

we know specifically how much that is.

MI. Ponterening.. For fiscal yea: 1975, which is the year

• I have been quoting figuces from, the arount of mondes

computer)

committed computes is deposis was 2 324,000.

Mr. Giaino. That is for syscens sapport?

Ms. Pomerening. Thai includes haravase rental,

acquisition, stafe, softrare, telecomisation lines and

so forth.

Chairman Pike. Can you toil me if you know what types

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of information the computers are used for? Are they strictly

for FBI usage or are they tied in, in any way to other govern-

mental services or agencies of any kind?

Mr. Pommerening.

To the best of my knowledge, they are

used solely for FBI purposes, plus the contact union 19

Federal,

maintained with/scate and local law enforcement to ences data

and retrieve data anô make inquiries vich the NCIC system, which

as you know, is composed of sight files including fugitives,

stolen cars, stolen securities, suole? firearms and these sores

of things.

Chairnan Pike. If you can erlarge on that question

for the record, we will appreciate ii as to whether or soc

in faci you gain informacio? and data fron ary scler

govermental agencies other than chose of the F37 and the

activitios within the jucistiction of the rsi.

I yiela back the balance of my tima and recognize

counsel, Mr. Field.

Mr. Field. Thank you, Mr. Chairna.

I would like to probe this figure that we talk of, the

total budget figure.

This morning you told is, and by tailing us you have

tolê the American peopie, that they are spending $82 million

a year fox intelligence.

That 25 all intelligends costs,

nọii.

I would maintain that is not entiraig accurate,

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Let me go through a few things.

What about background check? A full field, investi

gation was done on me. That cost a considezable amount of

топэу.

Do you consider that intelligence?

that in the

secret $82 million buäget?

Mr. Halsh. No, it is not. Mo. Field.

Mi. Field. If that is not intalligence, chen the

purpose of that background check is. now over.

Am I to

presume you have destroyed those files?

Mc. Walsh. No, sir.

Mi. Field. Yoi are keeping then?

Mr. Walsh.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Field.

That is information?

Mix. Walsh, Yes, Sir.

Mo. Field, That is insalligence?

Mc. Walsh. No, sir.

M5. Field. Ii is not intelligense.

Mr. Walsh. It depends on you: dufinitis, sir.

kic. Field, why are you reaping it if it is not

intelligence?

Mr. Walsi. We follow die regulations of the Archiris:

of the unired States.

That is an official document -

Mo. Field. Does the Archiviai dofire intolligence

for the FBI?

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His. Walsh.

No, Sit.

Mr. Field.

I would appreciate it if you would either

Include

the cost of the intalligence you have about me in

your budget or else get riá of it because I think it is sot

fair to treat it as though is is not intelligence, as far

as your budget is concerned, but te kasp it as intelligance

for practical purposes.

Has my backgroud checi given io anyoody else, such as

the Depazinent of Defense, o. the CIA?'

Mx. Halsh. I am noc acquainted ith

details of your

background check, Me. Field,

Mc. Fiela. Could it have

beer."?

Mi. Maich, It coulá have beer under certoin circuistances.

Mr. Field. So in faot ic ie intelligence. It is

used by people io find out about me.

sir. halsh. I sannot agree with that cosinicion.

Ms.. Field. I appreciate thai, for the recoca.

think we have a pretty good undarstanding os common sense

anô is sowês to me like incalligerce.

What about the cost of compucars? the Nacional. Crine

Information Center is Enirly expensive. Is that concidered

a cost. of intelligence?

Mr. Walsh.

No, sir.

Mr. Field. That is nce infomation that is used as

intelligence about people?

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Mx. Walsh.

No, sir.

Mr. Field. It is not used for that.

I would appreciate knoring what it is used for if it

is not used for that purpose.

Mx. Walsh. May I ask, sir; if you are going to address

these quastiong to me in writing?

KI. Giaino.

He is addressing then right now. lf you

can respond. If you want additional cime to respond in

•writing you may have that.

Mx. Field.

We have a different sroblem.

• We are not

interested in keeping the budget down,

We are nos irierested

in making it look as though ihese

is :10i very much

Intelligence being done in this country: Our broblem is to

te?l

an oversight comnitice what to look at.

then they

start assessing how nuch this is cossing the sespayer,

stari inaluding things.

How above the sost: in fingerprint files in that inole

fingerprint division?

Mr. Malsit. He have exace costs in that

Mx. Field. That is incuded in she 962 mallions

Mi:. Wals.

No.

Mr. Field. It is $50 million or something like that?

Thai is not informaiior; thai is noù intelligence.

Mr. Walsh. No, sir.

Me. Field. How about tie cost of living and aliowances

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at

foreign posts for FBI people?

'Me. Walsh. That is nos intelligence.

Pa Field. And they are not ove: there on intelligence,

they aje jusi in loreign countries cacrying out domestic .

Mr. Walsh. A laison assignment but I have concédea

•there can be some intelligence devaloes

Mr. Field. It sounds like that is all they are over

there for and thas is a way of shifting the real cost of

intelligence our of thai budgec.

How about the National Borb Data. Center?

Mix. Walsi. Yes, sic.

Mr. Fiela. Thes is intelligence?

Mr. Walsh. It may be in the dictionary'a definicion,

sit, but ic is nce in ouss.

Mr. Field. Investigations. We never Inally dic find

out what they were beyond a certain snail percentage.

Investigations. The word is there. it is not incelligence?

Mr. Walsi. Not in the sense we are crying to break out

these costs,

Ax. Field, 7<

Pir. Field. I appreciate that fo. the record and it is

an interesting anawer.

If we were to add in ali these brings but start adding

in the Druc Enforcarent Administration, the internal security

activities of the jastice Department, isn't it a fair statement

that the american taxpayer is paying sloser to half a billion

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dollars for intelligence in the Justise Department, a lot

closer to that, than he is the $82 million? Wouldn'

that be a fair stacement?

• Met o

Walsh, I can't agrce with that, six.

Me. Field. I yiela back the balance of my time.

Six. Milforâ. Do you consider the locai police

Identification names and the personnel files of this Congress

as being intelligence?

MI. Giaiico. We are sor going to get into an open

colloguy now between members of the comnitise and counsel.

I believe the point counsel makes is shat the $82 million

which the IbI clains as iia buäget for intelligence does

not take into account ocher portions ni their totai buâget

which also are used in the intelligence gathering field and

whei taken in total, total a great deul more tian the $82

million.

In other words, it is within the effoit of sortain

agencies, and I balieve Justice is cao of them, to try to

keep their intelligence budget figue low, as a more

appoaling figure to Congress.

therefore it dosent take

in some of chess other aspscts wich in a scricter definition

and of cousse Mir. Walsh is correct wasn he seys it dopends

on line definition, but from a broadce scope, these other

efforts, while not included in the so nillion, are necessary

In order to darry on an incaliigence furecior and can weil

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bo considered by us as mening that intelligence functions

are more than $82 million.

this time we will complete the hearing with the

gentlemen present here, Mr. Pommerening, My, Walsi, and

Mo. Hoobler, and the commiccee will stand in secess until

2 0:clock this afte.noon, at which time we will have with

u's the Commissioner of the intesnal Revenue

Service,

kir.

Donald Alesander.

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.n., the commictee was

racessed,

to reconvene ai

Dollo, this same day.

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