Agency: FBI
Originator: FBI
From: SAC, PH
To: DIRECTOR, FBI
Document date: 10/1/64
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

5/19/201

AGENCY: FBI

RECORD NUMBER :

124-10278-10340

RECORD SERIES:

HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

92-6054-771

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: FBI

FROM:

SAC, PH

TO :

DIRECTOR, FBI

TITLE :

DATE:

10/01/1964

'PAGES:

21

SUBJECTS :

LCN, MEMBERS, TRANSCRIPT, CONVERSATION,

COMMISSION

DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: 4

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/26/1998

OPENING CRITERIA: INDEFINITE

COMMENTS :

INC MEMO

v9.1

DocId: 32301505

Page 1

---

## Page 2

It 14rt+ -171419

FD-36 (Rev, 5-22-64)

Transmit the following in

Via

AIRTEL

FBI

Date: OCT 1

(Type in plaintext or code)

(Priority)

1964

REGISTÈRED MAIL

TO :

SUBJECT:

Director, FBI (92-6054)

SAC, Philadelphia (92-1027)

LA COSA NOSTRA, aka

AR; CONSPIRACY

(00: New York)

Enclosed for the Bureau and ich office with "Commission"

members is one copy of a verbatim transcript of a conversation

between

ROCCO SCAFIDI and JOHN CAPPELLO, capodecina, Philadelphia

Family, La Cosa Nostra, in which CAPPELLO defines the "Commission",

identifies

some of the members, etc.

The conversation mentions JOSEPH BONANNO but does not

touch on BONANNO's problems with the Commission,

1.:0

ENCLOSURE

(3) - Bureau

• (92-6054) (RM) (Enc. 1)

- New York (92-2300 (RM) (Enc.

2

2

2

1)

- Buffalo (92-377) (RM) (Enc. 1)

Pittsburgh (92-599)(RM) (Enc.

Newark (92-1203) (RM) (Enc. 1)

- Philadelphia

1 - 137-4.049 Sub B

JRP: ARM

(14)

48

92-6054-771

1 OCT 2 1964

Approved:

+ 2329:32

I d SBegudl Agent in Charge

• Wick

DocId: 32301505 Page 2

Sent .

_ M

Per

---

## Page 3

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

MEMORANDUM

OCT 1 1964

TO:

FROM:

SUBJECT:

SAC (137-4049 Sub B)

SA J. ROBERT PEARCE

PH 702-C*

On 9/24/64, the above source furnished the results

of a conversation between JOHN CAPPELLO

and ROCCO SCAFIDIO

In the conversation SCAFIDI is identified

as S and CAPPELLO

as C.

It is apparent that EXTREME CAUTION BE USED IN

REPORTING THIS INFORMATION.

IT SHOULD BE REPORTED IN LHM,

PARAPHRASED, AND WITH THE NAME OF ROCCO SCAFIDI

ETED WITHOUT

EXCEPTION.

Bureau (92-6054)

- New York (92-2300)

= Buffalo (92-377)

- Pittsburgh (92- 599)

- Newark (92-1203)

32 - Philadelphia

7 - 92-1027 (LA COSA NOSTRA)

- 92-616 (JOSEPH BONANNO)

- 52-444 (ANGELO BRUNO)

1

1

2

2

92-1141 (JOHN CAPPELLO)

-

92-976. (IGNAZIO DENARO)

92-524

(CARLO GAMBINO)

92-474

(JOSEPH IDA)

92-512

(THOMAS LUCHESE)

92-1346 (JOSEPH LANCIANA, aka JACK WILLIAMS)

2

1

1

92-1079 (PASQUALE MASSI)

- 92-1067 (FRANK MONTE)

92-1068 (FRANK "CHICKIE" NARDUCCI)

92-564 (JOSEPH PROFACI)

92-445 (ANTONIO DOMINICK POLLINA)

92-1316 (ROCCO SCAFIDI)

92-1173 (SAM SCAFIDI;

PHILADELPHIA)

92-1073 (PHILIP TESTA)

- 137-4049 Sub B

-

-

2

JRP: ARM

( 37)

92-6054-411

ENCLOSURE

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## Page 4

PH 137-4049 Sub B

Information enclosed in parenthesis is explanation

of the meaning of the conversation as explained by source to

fully identify persons mentioned and to indicate portions

that are not audible or garbled.

On 9/24/64

C:

What?

S:

•C:

About 1:30 we were over there, nothing happened .

•Did you go see ANGE?

S:

C :

S:

C:

S:

C : :

S:

C:

S:

I went to see him last night, and I told him.

''Where did he go?

I don't know.

And I told him.

So, for next week, he

better go see him and straighten out.

Yeah, but....

(Good morning, JOHNNY. Stranger speaks

to CAPPELLO).

Yeah.

We were there until 1:30 and the guy didn't

show up.

I ain't got no luck.

(Aside to unidentified

person, SCAFIDI says, "How you doing, buddy?" Customers

come and go during the conversation.

Conversation in

CAPPELLO's store, Ninth and Fitzwater Streets, Phila-

delphia).

What do you want, a quart or a gallon? "CAPPELLo talking

to customer in

his store).

Don't worry, JOHNNY. I'd have been here.. You know that.

I was worried. I swear to God.

I even called him

yesterday.

I mean.

State--I

don't know. But

what

I don't know don't hurt me.

Relax.

You know I would have been here and wet your

palm, buddy.

I'm not

that way. (SCAFIDI and FRANK

MONTE attempted to hold up a "Jewish Guy" on night

of 9/21-22/64.

They remained until 1:30a.mg 9/22/64

waiting for the man to show.

The intended victim

cashes checks and carried large sums of money on his

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## Page 5

PH 137-4049 Sub B

C:

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person.

He didn't show at his usual place.

CAPPELLO

had been told by SCAFIDI if he had made good he would

have given CAPPELLO some of the money.)

Regardless,

JOHNNY, you know I'm not that hungary because

No, I wasn't thinking of that.

I went to see GNATZ (IGNAZIO DENARO, under boss La

Cosa Nostra,

Philadelphia, ANGELO BRUNO, Boss, La

Cosa Nostra (LCN), Philadelphia, and Commission

Member, departed

for Miami night of 9/23/64, so IGNATZ

is in charge until BRUNO returns) yesterday. I said,

did FRANK come and see you?

He said not yet. He'll

be over.

It would have been nice.

I would have paid

TONY Off.

But you see, he should have went and seen him, being

that you went down.

That's why I told you.

Did you

get in touch with him (MONTE) any time? (FRANK MONTE

should have reported his attempted holdup activity

tO DENARO like SCAFIDI did).

No, I couldn't see him.

Maybe, because... was with you, you know, he'd figure,

what the (obscene) is he doing with you....

Well, I got him protected too.

Huh?

I got him protected too. I wanted GNATZ to think that

he didn't do it.

See.

eit in the guy dich t

I want to wait until he talks to you.

See why the guy didn't

Oh, he wasn't with you, FRANK?

Yeah, we both. He was on the corner.

I was on the side.

The guy didn't show up.

There is something funny there.

He's there every Tuesday. All the people were waiting

for him at the luncheonette to cash some checks.

No

luck. (Customer intervenes here about steaks)..

It would

all have been allright, JOHNNY.... I went to see my.

brother (SAM SCAFIDI, also member LCN) yesterday, and

thought I was going to..ü

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## Page 6

5

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

POSTPONBHENT INFORHATION SHKET (JFK HATERIALS)

Page (s) withheld entirely at this location in the file.

One or more of the following statements, where indicated,

explain this deletion (these deletions).

[)

()

Deletions were made pursuant to the postponement

rationale indicated below with no segregable material

available for disclosure.

All references relate to

Section 6 of the "President John F. Kennedy Assassination

Records Collection Act of 1992."

[] Subsection 1A (intelligence agent's identity)

(]

Subsection 1B (intelligence source or method)

(]

Subsection 1C (other matter relating to military

defense, intelligence operations or

the conduct of foreign relations)

Subsection 2

(living person who provided

confidential information)

(]

Subsection 3

(unwarranted invasion of privacy)

Subsection 4

(cooperating individual or foreign

government, currently requiring

protection)

[ ]

Subsection 5 (security or protective procedure,

currently or expected to be utilized)

Information pertained to a matter unrelated to the JFK

Assassination investigation.

For your information:

[]

The following number is to be used for reference

regarding this page (these pages) :

92-6054-p9-4-8

ser.

=771

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

xxxxxxxxxx,

XXXXXXXXXXXX

XXOXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXX

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## Page 7

PH 137-4049 Sub B

C:

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C:

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C:

Look, I mean, that's who I was going to go see.

said that, you know.

But it didn't work out. Didn't pan out.

But, ah, beings that I, ah.

I called him and he said

helll (tell me?) the next time I call him.

Not that

I want him to think that I know, because the less I

know the

better off I am. You understand what I

• mean? I'm not concerned

or anythinr..es=a case

of washing my hands. It just happened that you told

me, and it was

an (honest? garbled here)

ANG (ANGELO BRUNO). He'll be out of town anyway...

You have to go see him now....see GNATZ.

• Who?

What do you have to go see GNATZ for: See ANG, it's

better, ain't it?

I don't know..

I don't want to be involved.

GNATZ

told you to go see him

(MONTE).

(DENARO told SCAFIDI

to have MONTE come see DENARO).

Yeah, well, if I catch him, I'll take him up there with

me.

It won't hurt anyway.

GNATZ will want to see him

Right is right.

See

the boss through channels.

We're

lucky we got . boss like this.

When the other guy

was

boss.

You seen him once in three years.

I seen him yesterday.

Who was that, JOE IDA?

Of, I mean MIG (ANTONIO POLLINA).

I saw him yesterday.

(ANGELO BRUNO replaced POLLINA as "boss" in LCN - JOE

IDA was "boss" prior to POLLINA).

Yeah. I mean JOE IDA.

You used to see him once every

three years.

see, here he had to go here, there.

He'd say he's busy now.

And then you'd never see him.

- 4-4

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## Page 8

PH 137-4049 Sub B

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Oh, this guy (ANGELO BRUNO) runs around.

He is always around, but if he was in Trenton, when

the (obscene) would

you see him too?

You can't beat him.

You can't beat him.

I even

told my

brother, you ask him.

He said, if I get

it, you'll get it.

I said, I ain't hungry.

long as I get enough for myself

and

pay my Dills

and

a few left over, I said.

Oh, I wouldn't look at it that way

No, but, JOHNNY, you know me:

I'm not money hungry.

You helped me out. I don't forget:

. I was worried.. I just was worried.

Yeah, I don't blame you.

You know, I know youse were supposed to.

I read the

paper the next day.. I didn't see anything.

If only they (wouldn't have?) called the police.

Although you had told me that, see.

So, I called him.

Agents? (Car passed, SCAFIDI asked if it was Agents.

CAPPELLO says sune) =

Sure.

•Want to go up there and see him this week?

This week is Thursday already.

I shouldn't go on a

weekend. It should be like on a Monday or wednesday.

Oh.

We

will make it definitely Monday or something.

Let's

get moving on this.

All right.

Make it Tuesday. I'll call him and tell him we're coming

Tuesday night.

∞ 5

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## Page 9

PH 137-4049 Sub B

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C:

S:

C:

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All right. (SCAFIDI works Philadelphia, New Jersey

owner TONY

JOHN

is interested and so is SCAFIDI in going ahead with

previously talked of effort to steal a load of freight.

This way, let's get moving on it.

(?) Put this head and shoulders away at it.

(Interruption)

Now, let's say something happens, would they give him

hell or what?

What sould they do? You'd be in hot

water?

(If MONTE got caught on the attempted holdup,

what would LCN do about it?)

You're (a member of LCN) not supposed to do anything

unless you get permission first.

That I know.

Because this thing (LCN) is worse than the (obscene.)

army, you know that.

That I know.

If you get away with it and nobody knows, it's good.

Yeah, but.

Even.

sneaks...ooself.

I've done it. I've done it. (SCAFIDI has done things

"sneak", without permission of CN). ---sneak-

But if you get caught you louse yourself up.

Who's them two guys?

HARRY, put this and shoulders

away.

Know them?

No.

-0 6

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## Page 10

PH 137-4049 Sub B

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You louse yourself up.

And then, not

only that,

then they say (obscene) well, he didn't tell nobody

if he was going to make a score, wind up with money..

he wasn't going to bring it up to me, who the (obscene)

(are you?) help

yourself now.

Know what I mean?

Yeah.

As if.

(Unintelligible)

That's the difference.

In other words, when he gives you the OK... generally

, a job rule, I guess the guy is in with them, you know

what I mean?

A little something for his trouble,

you know, he helps them out, I mean

me, I ain't with

him.

He ain't with me. So, I don't know he's with.

(FRANK MONTE "ain't" in some regime in LCN with CAPPELLO.

He is under TESTA.)

He's with PHIL (PHILIP TESTA).

PHIL.

PHIL is

ANGE

as TESTA iS in jail), I don't know.

so he has to go there. (Go to see

ANGE.

I don't know. Has he appointed anybody for that reason?

I don't know. (CAPPELLO doesn't know if anyone is

appointed to act as Capodecina for TESTA while TESTA

is in jail).

I don't either..

He'll need one of his capi's.

That's it.

I don't know if he's appointed someone

in

charge of

it.

He's got to go to ANGE. That I

don't

know.

I imagine he has to go to ANGE.

-7-

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## Page 11

PH 137-4049 Sub B

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Who else would take it over?

Someone would take it over temporarily.

I mean 1f

I went away, I'd leave a guy in charge. (CAPPELLO

as a capo would appoint someone in charge of his

group if he went away.)

Oh yeah.

Here's PATSY (PASQUAL MASSI, aka Pat, Patsy). He's

got JACK WILLIAM (JOSEPH LANCIANO) 1n charge.

Oh, JACK WILLIAMS takes PAT's place.

Garbled.

How 1s he? I heard he had a heart attack.

Who PAT?

He's all right. I think he's over It now

only he (WILLIAMS).. taking his eight away from him.

No, just acting (capo) them until he comes back.

Right?

That's all right.

In other words he's (TESTA) in the can. These kids

have to go to somebody?

Oh, yeah,

are you kidding?

All right. This guy, I guess, he don't give a

(obscene).. 1f

they come to him.

Oh well,

there

The other guys are all 010

men 11ke I got.

What the (obscene) trouble they

give you.

What do you have, old men too?

Pretty old...

That's good, JOHN, I'm glad.

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## Page 12

PH 137-4049 Sub B

C:

S:

Was your old man alive when you?

Yeah. * *

The source elaborated on the above.

PHILIP TESTA 1s in jail. It was not known if he

appointed anyone to act as capodecina in his place while

TESTA 1s in jail.

CAPPELO is a capodecipa but has only

old men under him who give him no trouble.

Other than

FRANK MONTE and FRANK NARDUCCI (made members of LCN 10/19/61

according to PH 623-C-*). TESTA has old men under him.

In LCN when a capodecema is "away" he should have somone

to take over

"temporary" while the capodecema is gone.

PAT MASSI, who is 1n Italy has JACK WILLIAM, true name,:

JOSEPH LANCIANO acting as capo.

JACK WILLIAMS is not permanently

taking over for MASSI.

MASSI has "eight" in his regime.

This would not mean there are only eight in other regimes.

This identifies PAT MASSI, JOHN CAPPELLO, PHILIP TESTA

as capodecema in the Philadelphia family of ICN. Later

ANGELA BRUNO 1s identified as the "boss

and a member

of the commission of IN.

CAPPELO's father was

"alive"

when JOHN CAPPELLO was "made' ICN.

'S:

C:

S:

C:

S:

C:

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C:

Capodecema

I'II tell you the truth, I wish I wasn't.

Why?

Ah.

Ain't that much headaches, 1s 1t?

I ain't got that much, but, ah, the headaches.

So, your responsible for them guys.

Pain in the (obscene). A wake comes and you got

to get in touch with all of them, and bring--I

got all old men.

I got to pick them up. If I

- 9

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## Page 13

(]

(]

[]

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

POSTPONEMENT INFORMATION SHRET (JFK MATERIALS)

Page (s) withheld entirely at this location in the file.

One or more of the following statements, where indicated,

explain this deletion (these deletions) .

Deletions were made pursuant to the postponement

rationale indicated below with no segregable material

available for disclosure.

All references relate to

Section 6 of the "President John F. Kennedy Assassination

Records Collection Act of 1992."

[] Subsection 1A (intelligence agent's identity)

(]

Subsection 1B (intelligence source or method)

( )

Subsection 1C (other matter relating to military

defense, intelligence operations or

the conduct of foreign relations)

Subsection 2

Living person who provided

confidential information)

Subsection 3

(unwarranted invasion of privacy)

subsection 4 (cooperating individual or foreign

government, currently requiring

protection)

()

Subsection 5

(security or protective procedure,

currently or expected to be utilized)

Information pertained to a matter unrelated to the JFK

Assassination investigation.

For your information:_

[)

The following number is to be used for reference

regarding this page (these pages) :

92-6054-771 рд 10-12

XXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXOX

XXXXXXXOOXOXX

XXXXXXXXXXX

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## Page 14

PH 137-4049 Sub B

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was by myself, I'd go by myself. I run once a

week.

I'd

go see my capi and then I'm done.

never gave them a headache since I've been in

this thing.

No, that's true. Still you have a chance, JOHN,

Ior something.....

Garbled.. ..Capodecina (11ke before?)

I wouldn't.. what he's got.

I wouldn't. No, I don't think I would. It's too

much responsibility.

• I would never want it.

You don't kno. the (obscene)

trouble that is around now.

We had a meet the other

night. Man, I tell you, some of the stories that

you hear, phew. It makes your hair stand up. Makes

your hair really stana up.

I wouldn't want 1t.

If they would say

to me, here,

say I

wouldn't take it?

•oo take it?

No, siree, I would never never.

Illl lay you any money (Iknow who would?) take it

after ANG. PHIL. I'll bet on 1t.

(SCAFIDI says

he thinks TESTA would take over 1f BRUNO was re-

placed for some reason.)

Well, maybe they like them responsibilitles. 1

don't.

I know, I wouldn't either.

I mean, 1f I, was

up

in good standing and all that.

No, them things is all right.

-10=

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## Page 15

PH 137-4049 Sub B

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It's headaches, JOHN, you got to have money.

It's all right, if you got money. You're not

doing anything.

You got time to

run here and there.

You take like me.

With me, that's why with me 1t

seems so... I'm in the store,

A guy comes..

I got

to go somewheres else. It's a pain in the (obscene).

It's a real pain in the (obscene).

If I wasn't

doing nothing, then it's a pleasure. I got to do.

Understand?

I don't say I'm sorry I'm the one,

but then,

I mean to say, It's good enough for me.

I wouldn't want to be under (boss); maybe consuglieri

because you are not too involved with something.

' What would that mean, in case of trouble?

A consuglier 1s like a lawyer.

In case you got

a beer or a gripe.or' I got a beef with you.

hears the story,

and he tries to straighten it

out.

Understand? He's like a lawyer. In other

words, he's llke a peacemaker.

Yeah, wait awhile.

I got a.. VALACHI, like you

KnOW

when everybody gets together, all the big

bosses?

Udienza. (In English a hearing or meeting)

Udienza? Wells there is another name.

He (VALACHI)

called it something else... la commissione..

Commission is nine bosses.

Nine bosses? From different states?

From different states, from different families, the

bosses of nine!

different lamilies. Now, If there

1s a beef in the family like New York or Brooklyn

PROFACI.

Yeah.

-11-

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## Page 16

PH 137-4049 Sub B

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New York or what.

(Auto drowns out) The Commission

gets

together and tries to straighten 1t out; other-

wise, who the (obscene) kill them all each other.

So they get together and try to straighten it out.

You know, somebody intervenes, and then the commission

gets together.

I didn't understand what the hell it was.

The commission makes the decision.

Oh, In other words they pick nine guys from different

states.

They've been on the commission for years and years.

•Like our family, our boss (ANGELO BRUNO) 1s a

representative on there.

He's one of them?

He's one.

There's CARLO CABINO, there's TOMMY BROWN.

TOMMY LUCHESE (Thomas Luchese, aka). Eight or nine

of them.

I always wondered what the hell it was. I mean,

I never.

JOE BANANAS is a new one * What's what. There's

about eight or nine.

They get together. The

commission gets together and they decide what 1s

to be done, and that's all.

What's to be done. !!

In other words, say for instance, ANGE, some of us

(JOHN says hello to somebody here) and

there. 1s

friction, there 1s fights, some guys disappear.

The commission hears about it, you know... they give

you a hearing and try to iron the thing out some -

where else.

Take a vote.

Oh.

End of Conversation

(*Another name mentioned but not audible.)

-12-

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