Agency: FBI
Originator: FBI
From: HQ
To: CG
Document date: 06/27/1967
Document type: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

?.

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

3/20/201

AGENCY: FBI

• RECORD NUMBER: 124-10250-10233

RECORD SERIES: CG

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 62-6115-909

Released under the John F.

Kennedy Assassination Records

Collection Act of 1992 144 USC

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: FBI

FROM:

CG

TO: HQ

TITLE:

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

06/27/1967

13

SEE FBI 62-109060-5483

DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: 4

CURRENT STATUS : Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 01/11/1999

OPENING CRITERIA: INDEFINITE

COMMENTS :

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## Page 2

AIRTEE

6/27/67

C-1

TO:

DIRECTOR, FBI (63-109060)

110X:

SUBJICE:

BAC, CHICAGO (62 6210)

ASEABBINATION OP PRESIDENE JOUT PITBOZEAL KENICEY

11/22/83, Dallas,

Tarat

ASSAULTINO OR RILLING A FEDERAL OFFICEE

Enclosod for tho Durenu are throe coples each of a

solf-oxplanatory confidential roport and additlonal laforsation

pertsiting to captionod matter, tuo coplos each of the report.

ald intorantion are' enclosed fox tbe Balloo and Hou trleans

21V185020.

LEOTARD EARNSON on 6/30/61, on an extresoly confteontial basta.

PCJ argod that undor no pircutances should his idoatity be

disulgee no a source.of this toformation and extreme caution

be enoreinod in any use of this information so so pot to la any

may Violato the confidential rotationship botwoon 2Ci and those

maund in tho enclosod caterial. :

Duo ta the consitiva and coniidential nature of tho

enclosed informatioa and PCI's unquestioned value

to the Chicago

Divioton; this inforuation do zot boing subaltted in a for

suitable

for dissonination and to submitted for information

purposes only.

3

* Buroad (Ene.

- Daltoe (89-43)

.. For Orleans (Bie. 9))

JUK: pa

(3) Im

Oles

Searcined

Serialized

Infered

File!

904

6.756115

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On June 22, 1967, L. H. Harrelson, in a telephone conversation with a con-

fidential source in New Orleans, Louisiana, obtained the following information

with regard to Perry Russo.

This informant, who is well known to L.H.H. and who is a polygraph examiner

having been trained at the Keeler Polygraph Institute, stated that Perry Russo was

Esamined by another polygraph examiner with the Sherill's Office in New Orleans

-ánd that he had heard that the Sheriff's Office examiner stated that Russo was lying

regarding the story of the plot to assassinate the late John F. Kennedy. •

This informant also advised L.H.H. that Perry Russo had been subjected to

narco-interrogation, using sodium pentathol and that he had further been subjected

to hypno-interrogation.

He stated that a local psychiatrist subsequently blasted

District Attorney Garrison for using these two techniques and suggested that Russo

should be examined on the polygraph which should be more reliable. This informant

stated that he received a call requesting him to examine Russo in regard to his

story. He stated that he was told that Russo wanted to meet him first to see what

kind of a person he was.

He stated that he made an appointment and met Russo for the first time Friday,

June 16, 1967. He stated that at this time he talked for a while and Russo requested

that he be given a trial run on the polygraph and that he wanted to be asked 10 or 20

questions and intended to lie to some of them to see if the examiner could detect

The source stated that he instead had Russo write down a number on a piece of

paper and place it in his pocket.

He stated that he then made Russo a bet of $5.00

that he could pick out the number. He further

stated that Russo called the bet, the

test was run and the examiner picked out the number.

He stated that Russo appeared in his office on June 19, 1967 to be examined in re-

gard to his story reporting the plot to assassinate the late John E. Kennedy. He

stated that he attempted to examine Russo but that hispneumo tracing (breathing)

was so erratic that he reported to D.A. Garrison that he felt Russo was an unfit

subject for polygraph testing at this time. He further stated that he did talk with

Russo about his tracing and explained to bim that he obviously had something

bothering him. He stated Russo told him that he told the story in court because he

was getting so much pressure from D.A. Garrison and also NBC. He stated that

Russo further made the statement to him that he did not know if Glay Shaw was

"present at the meeting or not.

He stated that Russo added that if he had to say

"yes" or "no" that he would have to say "no" that Clay Shaw was not present.

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This examiner stated that he asked Russo why he went into court and under oath

stated that Shaw was present at the alleged meeting. He stated that Russo replied

that he fully intended to go into court and testify that he did not know if Shaw was

present or not but became angered by Shaw's attorney's question, "Do you believe

in God" and afterwards did testify that Shaw was definitely present.

This informant stated that Russo admitted having undergone psychiatric treatment

for one and one-half years.

He stated that Russo admitted to homosexual acts.

This informant stated that he fully believes that he would have been able to break

Russo had he continued.

He stated that after giving a verbal report to Mr. Garrison

that Mr. Garrison told him in no uncertain terms to keep his mouth shut and not to

ay anything about the test or what Russo said. This informant further stated thai

dis official written report to Mr. Garrison is goine to indicate that in his opinion

Russo was an unfit subject on Monday, June 19, 1967.

OTE:

The erratic breathing pattern that was described by this informant can indicate

claustrophobia, however, in all of the experience that I have had in conducting

polygraph examinations, an erratic breathing pattern as a general gule is an indica-

tion that the subject is being deceptive.

І.н.н.

mad

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1T. 1.+

# 9816 - 67

June 21, 1967

Le: Hawkios,

Attorney at Lavi

836-8-12 Fifth Avenue

Des Moines, Iowa

ARRANGEMENTS:

It your request, LILLIE MAE MC MAINES was examinod on the polygraph, a

cotection oi deception technique.

PROCEDURE:

Standard polygraph procedure was exercised throughout this examination.

RESULTS:

Subject was esamined in this office on June 19, 196%.

She was given a Relevant.

and Irrelevant type examination for the purpose of ascertaining if she possessed

any knowledge of an alleged ineeting in Dave Ferrie's home wherein there was

verbal intercourse relating to a plot to assassinate the late John F. Kennedy.

During the pre-test interview, the Subject stated that she was born Lillie wae

ipoliott on October 22, 194%, in Lucedale,

Mississippi. She stated that her real

mother died when her younger sister was born and that she was raised by one oi

Vher father's cousins, James Moliett, and his wile Ethel. She roierred to these

people as her parents. She stated that she was raised near Mobile, Alabama.

She said that she does not know hother or not Jamed and Ethel Moffett ever

adopted ber.

Subject stated that she is prosently married to

Harold McMaines, aged 38 years.

She said that he does not have a regular job and works out of an "employment

office" in Omaha, Nebraska, as a truck driver and as a furniture mover.

The Subject stated that ever since she was old enough to underatand and remember,

her "mother" constantly told har that her older sister Certrude, who lived in Now

:. Orleans, Louiziana, was, "a tramp and no good." She stated that these statements

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Mr. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae Mclaines

RESULTS (cont'u):

finally caused her to run away from home in 1962 and proceed to New Orleans

to locate her sister Gertrude. She said that she just had to find out ii her

sister was really "bad."

During six hours of interview and interrogation, the Subject gave the following

information regarding her stay in Now Orleans, her return to Mobile, Alabama,

Then on to San Bornadino, California, then back to New Orleans, then to Omahar

Nebraska, and finally to Des Moines, Iowa.

Fubject stated that when she first went to Now Orleans she decided to use the

name Sandra Modiett. She explained that she had been in New Orleans for appro::-

imately three weeks before her sister permitted her to go out "on the town" by

herself. She said that the firat night she went out alone she met Perry Russo.

She said that the mecting occurred about 10:30 P.M. as she was walking down

Mourbon Street and that Perry Russo, "Ken," Leity Peterson and "Timmy" were

also walking along Bourbon Street.

She related that as they passed on the street,

-Tinmy winked at her and the smiled. She continued that they all stopped on the

sidewall. and tolked. She said that during this conversation, Perry Russo volun-

teered to drive her horne.

She continued that she, Perry Russo, Leity, Kon and Timmy all gut into Perry'3

car and proceeded to drive toward her sister's bome where she was staying but

they stopped on the way for coifee and gasoline. She said that Perry Russo asked

her if she would go to school with him the following morning and she replied to him

that she would go with him provided her sister would permit her to do so.

She continued that Perry Russo stopped by the house the following morning but her

sister would not permit her to go with him but hor sister did agree that she could

altend a party that was being given for Ken Winl: that nigit.

Subject stated that that party was held at a place called the Frenchman's Ina. She

said that Perry was supposed to pick her up at 8:00 P.M. but he was late because

it was raining hard. She said that she and Perry arrived at the party at appro: i-

mately 9:00 P.M.

Tho Subject stated that she and Perry continued to date until the early part of 1963.

She said that she became pregnant and aiter she told Perry that she was pregnant

" he told her to "get lost" until aitor the baby was born and then she shouli look him.

* up ayain.

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Mr. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mac McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

The Subject stated that when she first told Perry Russo that she was prognant,

a man (unknown to her) placed Perry in a hypnotic trance and questioned hiro.

She said that while in the trance, Perry acknowledged that he was the lather of

her yet unborn baby. She said that Perry later denied that he was the lather.

She went on to explain that she, Perry, and the unknown "hypnotist" (she des-

(cribed his age as between 40 and 50 years) went to a place called the Royal

Castle and, while there, this unknown "bypnotist" again placed Perry in a

hypnotic trance. She said that he did not question Perry at this time but gave

him a post-hypnotic suggestion, "When I snap ny fingers you will awaken, get

off the stool, walk to the door and then return to the stool where you wili ireeze

in your tracks and will be unable to move." She said that when the man snapped

His fingers, Perry opened his eyes, got off the stool, walked to the door and

then turned and walked back to the stool She said that Perry stood by the stool

and went through what appeared to be attempts at moving his body but he did not

actually move. She added that, in her opinion, Perry was faking his inability to

move while standing by the stool.

Subject said that the next time she saw Perry (after telling hind that she was

pregnant) was a very short time later and she spent about one-hali hour telking

with him in his home. She said that when she departed his home, a friend of his

named "Fido" knocked her down on the lawn, hit her in the atomach with his fist,

and made the comment, "Why don't you leave him alone?" She explained that she

screamed loudly when struck by Fido hoping that Perry would come outside but

me did not. She said that Fido went into Perry's home after knocking her down

and striking her. She said that as soon as she regained her sense of direction,

she got up and went home.

The Subject stated that when she was about three months pregnant, she attempted

suicide by taking 175 aspirin. She said that a girl friend named Kathy found ber

and tool: her to the Charity Hospital in New Orloans by taxicab. She said that her

stornach was pumped at the hospital and she said that the hospital notified the

police departinent but her girl friend Kathy talked the oificer out of taking her to

jail.

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Nir. Howkins

June 21, 1967

RE: killic Mac McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

Subject stated that when she was about four months pregnant, she married

Frank Adams in Dallas, Texas. She did not tell the circumstances surzounding

a divorce froin Adams.

The Subject stated that when she was between 15 and 16 years of age, her

"mother" tool: her to a psychiatrist because she bad run away from home.

She

Waid that she visited the psychlatrist about four times but she did not know what

he reported about her.

Junject related that she save birth prematurely on August 30, 1963. Size said

that she was released from the hospital on September 3rd or 4th, 1963. She said

that she went to Perry Russo's house the day following her release from the

hospital but she did not see or talk with him again until June or July of 1954.

Subject then related how Persy Russo photographed her on several occasione

while she was engaging in the act of coitus with difierent men.. She explained

that. Perry had his own dark room and developed the pictures himself.

Subject then related that she and a girl named Ann visited her baby in the hospital

Irequently.

She further stated that her "parents" came from Alabama to New

Orleans and also visited the baby in the hospital.

Subject continued that her baby was released from the hospital on September 20,

1963, and on this saine date she left New: Orleans with a James Robert Ervin

(Russo had introduced her to him). She said that the two of them and the baby

went by bus to her "parents'" home. She gave her "parents" address as Box 326

In Light Mile, Alabama and she said that this ton is located near isobile.

She went on to explain that James Robert Ervin was unable to find employment

in Mobile and so he went to New Orleans and obtained a job in an establishment

called Little Crystal Cofe. She said that this establishment is located on Royal

Stroet in New Orleans. She said that Jimmy worked and stayed in New Orleans

during the wook and he would hitchhike to her "parents" home in Eight Mile,

Alabama, over the weekends.

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Mc. Lawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie ivae Mclaines

BESULTS (cont'u):

Subject stated that she and Jimmy leit Eight Mile in February of 1964 (leaving

the baby with her "mother") and they went to San Bernadino, California, where

they siayed with an aunt of hers. She said that from the time she left New

Oricans to go to Bight Nile and then to California, she did not make one trip

to New Orleans.

Hubject related that she and Jimy vent through a wedding ceremony in Tiajuana,

Mesico, in June of 1964. She continued that Jimmy left her the latter part of

shis same month. She said that the day aiter Jimmy leit her, she went to New

Drleans by bus.

Subject rclated that when she arrived in Now Orleans, the called Perry Russo

nd he came to the bus depot and drove her and her personal belonginge to his

dome. She said that she anent the night in Perry's apartment and then the follow-

ing day she rented a room ior hersell. She said that aitor she rented the room,

she went job hunting and she met James Robert Ervin on the street. She said

that they decided to live together again.

She said that she did obtain a job as a

barmaid. She said that she and Jimmy lived together for only one weck and he

hgain walked out on her. She said that he left on July 3, 1964.

The Subject said that she then turned to prostitution as a means of supporting

herseli and in order to save up enough money to get her baby back from her

"mother." She further explained that she gave Perry Russo "around a hundred

dollary" to keep for her but he never gave it back to her. She said that on one

other occasion, she loaned Perry $20. 00 to use to pay his insurance but ho did

hot repay this money either.

The Subject stated that the first time she met Dave Ferrie was in either the latter

part of January of the first part of February of 1965. She explained that she was

with Perry Russo and he wanted to sec Dave Ferric about something and so the

two of them went to Dave's apartment. She said that Perry introduced her to

Ferrio and his two roommateg. She said that thoy stayed at Dave's apartment

for only a few minutes and they leit.

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Mx. Hawkins

June Z1, 1907

RE: Lillio Mae Mcialnes

RESULTS (cont'd):

The Subject said that the noxt time she saw Dave Terrio was less than a weel:

alter first mecting hit and was on a Sunday. She explained that Dave invited

her to his apartment for lunch with him and his two roommates. She said that.

Dave picked her up at hor place in a blue Ford station wagon and they arrived at

Dave's apartment at appro: imately 12:30 or 1:00 P.M. She saic that she stayed

¡aão aparemen until about 5:30 Poli, at which time he drove her baci to lies

Subject said that she noxt saw Dave Ferrie on the following Wednesday or

Thursday when he care by San's place where she was employed. She said that

Dave asked her is she would go out with him: the following Friday night.

Hubject said that on this Friday night, Dave picked her up at her apartment

about 6:00 or 6:30 P. Vi. and they first proceeded to bave's apartment where one

di Dave's roommates and his date wore waiting. She said the four of them then

went to several places to dance and drin': but they did not have dinner.

The Subject emphatically denied ever mecting Shaw or Oswald. She said that she

pever altonded a party at Dave Terrie's house.

she stated that sho had never been

to a lootsall game but sha did attend basketball and basoball gomes with ferry

Russo and Lefty Peterson.

The Subject stated that Persy Russo was extremely interested in politics. She

saici that he was a Republican and a strong advocate and backer of Goldwatcr.

The Subject

stated that she attended a political mecting with Perry Russo and

three other men but she could not be sure of their names. She related that the

meeting was held in a big house on Canal Street in either April of May of 1965.

She said that she and three inen stayed in a back foom of the house and watched

television..

She said that she did not see all of the people at the mecting. She said

that she did not hear anyone speaking Spanish nor did she see any Spanish, Cubans

or Puerto Ricans at tils inecting.

The Subject commented that Lefty Peterson is "off upstairs" but is a good guy

otherwise.

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Mr. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mao Mclaines

RESULT'S (coul'‹):

The Subject explained that Perry Russo habitually made notes about everything.

She said that he

made notes pi things he had to do, the times he was supposed to

be somewhere, and places he had to 80. She said that Perry told her he cade

notes of everything because he was so busy that he dic not want to forget anything.

The Subject explained that on one occasion she went to Perry's house and Mike

Unitrgerald was there. She said that Mike told her that he had just found Perry

in the bathroom with his wrists all slashed up and that he had tried to comunit

suicide.. She said that she then left and did not see Perry.

The Subject stated that when Perry first introduced her to Jimmy Ervin, he

suggested they all go to Jimmy's apartment and he would like to make photographs

of hor and Jimmy engaging in coitus. Sho said that a gizl friend of hers named

Jeannie became very angry with Perry when he made this suggestion. She said

they did not go.

The Subject stated that the most men she evei engaged in sexual intorcourse with,

one inmodiately following the other, would be two. She said that these vere two

mon she hustled when she was working as a prostitute. She related that one

hustied one man one night and he went into the bathroom niter undressing. She

said that she locked him in the bathroom, tool: $120. 00 from his pocket and ran

out of the room.

Sho stated that on one occasion Perry wanted to photograph her

and a giil named Kathy engoged in a sc. act together but she said that someone

came in unexpectedly and the act was never consummated.

The Subject related that two investigators from District Attorncy Garrison's

office came to her home in the middle oi the night of March 8, 1907, in Omaba.

She said that they requested her to leave immediately with them and return to

New Oricans for the purpose of looking at some photographs. She said that they

tuld her that they did

not know what the photographs were. She continued that she

In the cleaners. She said that these two men, Simnis and Jonah, told her not to

that she would slay in the finest hotels and eat the finest foods.

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Fage 8

Mi. Hawkins

June 21, 1907

RE: Lillie Mac Mcitaines

RESULTS (cont's):

She continued that her husband (Enrold Memaines) spoke up and stated that be

did not want to let her go and that he wanted to consult with an attorney. She

said that the two investigators then ofiered to buy a ticket for her husband

also. She said that after her husband insisted ou talking with an attorney first,

the two investigators told her husband not to consult with an attorney because

she night get hurt if he did and they wanted to keep everything quiet. She said

Jhat they did leave however.

Dise wilaine order are ory to reporter namaty

appeared in print sle and her husband both lost their jobs. She went on to relate

that the reporter Zimmerman told her that the nooded an attorney and arranged

for her to moet attorney Lex Howkins.

The Subject was given four separate testo and was asked the following relevant

questions and gave the answers indicated:

First Test:

стортинто

Q. Do you have any intention oi trying to lie to me during this test? A. No.

O. Fave you told me the complote truts since we have been talking? A. Yes.

Did you ettond the party at F'crrie's home that Perry clalms you attended?

A. No.

Did you over mect Shaw? A. No.

Are you deliberately trying to withhold any information from me regarding

the party? A. No.

Second Test:

Q. Fave you told me the complete truth here today? A. Yes.

Q. Did you attend the party Perry says you did? A. No.

Q. Are you trying to withhold any information from me regarding this case?

A.. No.

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Page 9.

Mr.

Hawking

June 21, 1907

RE: Lillia Mao McMaines

RESULTS (cont':):

Third Fest:

Did you llo to Mr. Hawkins at all? A. Yes.

Did Perry ever tell you that the President was going to be assassinated?

A.

No.

Did you go to the party at Dave's houso that Perry says you did? A. No.

Are you attempting to protoct or cover up for anyone? A.

No.

..

Are you trying to hold back any information from me now? A.

No.

fourth Test:

Q.

Ilave you told re the complete truth here today? A. Yes.

Would you lic if it would help you stay out of jail? A. Yes.

Were you ever present when any people talked about assassinating the

President? A.

No.

Is Perry tolling the truth about you attending the party? A. No.

Are you alteinpting to withhold any information frora ine now? A. No.

Have you purposely lied to any of my questions? A. No.

During the first three testo, hor polygrams contained reactions to the relevant

question: "Are you trying to withhold of conceal any information from me?"

Following the third test, she explained that she suspects Perry Russo might be

"a little queer" for Milke Fitzgerald. There was not a reaction to the question

On the test following this esplanation.

The Subjoet was asked by this examiner why she thought Perry Russo was telling

this story. She explained that the last time she saw him, which was in June of

July of 1965, ho asked her if she would marry him. She stated that he said that

ho wanted to marry her so that he wouldn't have to go into the military service.

She stated that she told him she would not marry him. She then quoted him as

saying, "You have got to marry me and help keep me out of the service." She

stated that she again told him she would not marry him and then further quoted

him as saying, "If you won't marry me, I'll have to find someone else who will."

She added that she believes he is telling thia story in an endeavor to avoid going

into the military gervice.

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Mr.

Hawking

JuBa 21, 1967

RE:

willie ivae Mcmaines

CONCLUSION:

Aítor careful analysis of thie Subject's polygrems, it is the opinion of the

examiner that she told substantially the truth during her examination and

interrogation.

sonarc M. Markelson

LEONARDE KNELER, INC.

HEl/mad

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