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TITLE :

SSCIA

DATE: 03/09/1976

PAGES: 147

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TOP SECKET

NATIONAL:

SECURITY INFORMATZON

Unauthorized Disclosure Subject

to Criminal Sanctions:

Vol

2 of: 3455

Ohe Mnited States Spuate R2784

Report of Proceedinge

Hearing; held before

Senate SElect Committee to Study: Governmental

Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities

324-1

Tuesday, March 9, 1976

Washington, D. C

(Stenotype: Tape and Waste turned over:

to the Committee for destruction)r

WARD & PAUL

410-FIRST STREET, S. E.

WASHINGTON, D. C. 200033

(202) 544-6000

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INTENTACT

INVESTICATION

Foreion & Military subcommittre Meeting

Tuesday

, 1976

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United States Senate,

Selt Committee to

stud Governmental

Onerationg with. Pespect to

Intolligence Actlvities.

washington, D. C.

The committee met, mirauant te notice, at 10•30 o'clock

B .10..

in Room 5-107, the Caritol, Senator Walter P. Hiddleston.

chairman of the subcommitteel presiding.

Present.

Senators Hulllenton, rroriding. Hart of

colorado: and Mathias.

Men present: Willim Miller, Staff Director Joseph

Aurenova. Charles Kirhow. Ellirt Maxwell, Elizaheth Culbreth,

ven orloff. William Bador Wunn Davis. Ai Quanbock, Charles

Lombard. Rick Inderfurth. Bib kalley. Greg

nreverton. Jim

Inhnaton. and

Britt Snider. Professirnal

staff Member".

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Senator Huddlesten.

Int is come to order.

Mr. Aaron. The moond? today is to proceed with the DCI

section and in addition ve could like to yet the subcommittee's

if you vill substantire arreral of the raper on the production

of intolligence so that it micht go to the Agency and ve could

an through the process of clearing its details.

I don't know which a those you wish o take un first

.. :.

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Mr. Kirhow, me chould rently take up the paper first

hecause it already went ent

this morning.

No. raron. Hell. thor are renling it but we lare not

nerotiated with them vet.

Senator Huddleston.

ins? commont on that

Mr. Miller. Which rarer?

Senator Huddleston. The nroduction of intellidence.

MI. Aaron:

It is in the larger book.

Me. Harbor. sonator, I have some comments but t

defer to the Senators if thar have sone comments first

ir. Aaron. Tt's at tab Mo. Co.

conator Huddleston. charley, we ahead.

Mr. Kirbow. Thank ici.

Mace from the Took Pid ebles

expressed he the senior

parte of the cormonity

?::

amatter of record for

CRAT

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1na sonators. I'm sure to lana hat the hin

Tialt

in

the House last

vear was to auntil the excruciating details on

budget figures and I thin': up had kind of discussed perhaps

rublishing 3 or 1 major features

I'd like to noint out that ir

this particular document, sucy great detail as that portion of the

aIn, the npI which produce: intelligence, we

speak of an

authorized project to $70.9 million with 2.269 emplovees, exact

percentage of the pranor's want and the exet percentage of the

nersonnel, That one name of thir

document is rohably the most

classified single comptlatio!.

senator Huddleston:

what page is that?

Mr.: Kirbow. Paro ?.

senator Hradleston. as course it's out of the daency.

Twould accume they would have sone commont on it.

Me. Aaron: The point vas not, the vier vas not to

produce these precise numbere but A, to have them for the

suhcommittee so that they could inderstand them and much as

in the case of the net's matrinal pader In exrect that these

thinge will he modifind ind to lar the bacig for.

an anoropriate

discussion with then as to you one might modify it and yet

canture the essence ne the pratant, and tell ihat are how

far that

nes in truing to roach

Containly we lame isention of ..

canator mindlene

rentreonte a cubetarti

niture with a large number of

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enolovees?

MI. Kirhow. Wel.!

if r could tell you what my position

on it is, in speaking. to Both Bloomfield last night I specificall

asked her - well, she

save that's to give them something out

thore to take out so that we'll have enough left in here that

would he a worthwhile doornt at the end.

And I think that if we are kidding ourselves that we

have either the time or wid ip should not have the inclination

in mu onialon to waste the time of the people at the ayency

or anything hy. "butting in things which will nive Mr. Boldin

something to gnaw of so he won't hother the rest of the thing,"

I just didn't think that no were voiny to get into that lind

of dealina with the Agenor conle. I thought we vere soina to

he forthright in what he thought ve should out in and what we

would out in a document like this because the whole production

of intellidence thing or the whole theme of the paper is !

this inadequate attention diven to the analytical portion of

production.

And if we are doing Hiie and sending it out there in

this classified form full moll knowinn at the outset - sle

cava, vell, that's not oven materlal. If they vant to take it.

out. just take it out.

Well, if it's not natoniel, 1 would hope that 're not

nanting both mir lie

at end thout 10, 000 merl in the

lace north.

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Senator Huddlest:. " think it's probably material to

also to have

a firmer arair wentie start discussing and defendinc

the report maybe, even to tha extent of having specific figures:

I think it's highly mlikely that they will let that stay

in there and

we'll prohable hare

to modify it..

I see your point

in a way that we might save nurselves time by scaling it down

to beain with to what ire

think vill be acceptable,. hut on the

other hand. ve may not ques rioht.

Mr. Kirbow.

Well, for the record then. Senator I do

have excention to this tune triting where we deliberately beef

it un with known classified inforation full well knowing that

it's going to he taken out and not get to the point that we

are tryint to make. But I won't dwell on it any further.

Senator Huddleston. No vou have any commont on that

aspect. Songtor Hart?

Senator Hart..Me.

Sonater Huddleston, All right, that one's ready to go.

MI. Aaron. Thank you.

Now we left off vesterdav on page 25. we had discussed

two oral proposals by way of recommendations.

The firat vas

to set a tone for the not which las rojected and the second

was to confirm the new commmitr wide deputy for the pcI to

have him mubject to Senato r

-fismation to establish hi as.

in affect.

the firet deput of

the Dot, the man the would sucreed

in his olace

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We also discusso? 'infly the recommendation nuber 16

and we agreed that we would make some change in the language

relating to what in effect is the re-establishment of the board

of national estimates to male clar that they weren't there just

For the purnose of endorsina

ostimates but from the standpoint

that they are there for the rurnose of reviewing them.

So the next recommendation is recommendation 17, and it

ts long and complicated:

Pacentlally what the recommendation

ines is apoll out more precigoly what the ndl's responsibilities

will be for the overall alloration of resources and coordination

of the community's activition apart from the ninduction of

Finished intellidence, which la the purpore of recommendation

16.

15

16

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19

20

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24

Now what it does, the first paragraph sumnarizes the

essential responsibilittes along the lines of the President's

Executive Order.

Now it is slightly different from the Executive Order

in the following sense.

The Runautive Order establishes an

NSC Committee, gives the Comittee the responsibllity of

preparina a national trelligence budget, makes the CCI the

chairman of that committee. ind alves the not in his person,

if vou will, the responsilility for presentino that budget to

president

the

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met entiraly lear allocating et cuthority to the DOt to simply

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marina

he is responsibleer arnaring the community'e hudget,

and he has this Committer for this purpose

in trying to place

responsibilitv squarely on him in do that.

Now this would mot mean, however, that the Secretary of

Defense he senior to him in the rabinet. I mean the National

Security Council could not malin a, reclama and could not go over

his head.

That situation vill till exist and this Conmitree is

in fact a omnittee of the national Security Council. so there

1e another laver at which inter gency alaputes, if they continue

bevond the level of the comnittee on forcian Intelligence,

whore they could be resolved.

Now the first - it alan dosionates him as responsthle

for preparing the budget and providina quidance for overations

orcarams in meneral terms aul nuts him in na chairman of the

appropriate NSC committee, and then we reference the CrI and

then authorize the folloving snorific responsibillties.

First of all, the entohlishment of rational intelligence

reruirements.for the entire community and it empovers him to

dray unon representatives of the members of the intelligence

communtty to helo him In the tack of estahlishing them requiremen

Now this is

an trerate ii his anthority from his

currant parture.

He has moe the authorter to isene audance

ir!

the

monardler at remiromonte but he can'e crolli say do

de that.

Their tie the things we want.

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Now as a practler!

matter.

I think it's fair to sav that

he ones prettv far in rettim his way at the present time, but

on some of these requirerente on a national basis, this would

nive him the clear authority in ask them to do things.

Now his renulenuents: the level of detail and so forth,

nuld obviously be something that would have to be negotiated

out in the course of his war!:.

Now that is the recommondation of the first par-graph

naradioach A.

I miaht lust saw it also nives the PCI in connection with

the requirements process, il refors here to the fact that he

mav determine the sucrose of various gencies in fulfillin and

in

tact what the raraaron! ratn un is a susten wareb: the

DrI can

estahlish

requirements and then throunh the budget

rencess and in the procers of araluatino

renuiremente make

some estimate of how well the community is doing and either add

to the hudrets or take away in certain areas and so forth.

This provides sone of the real sustan as apposed to a

naner susten which he has had in the nart.

Varagraph B derrrihos the nreparation of the national

intelligence hudant ood onints-out that he should prepare this

hudnet, present it to

at Iresident and to the congress who

would male come referaire bore to the lanmonse in the President's

Te netee there

i mint that the definition of the

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-laments to he included within a national Intollicenre budget

In other words, what parts of the comnunity would fit into that.

where you draw the line hetunen technical and national intelli-

rence, between departmental and national intelligence.

This definition would he stablished by the Conuress in

consultation with the Frecutive Branch.

It further points out that he should be involved early in

tho procees of precarina brioets in the budait crole, and then

1r makes comehortator kind.ae statemente about how lie should

try to consider trade-offe haboon programs and hetween collectio

and production and so firth.

senator Muddleston. " rould riagest there that we use

another word hacides trode.off. While it is common for us to

195€

it un here in committoe work. I don't think it conveys the

hest conintation to the

mublin

What we're saving

is that he balances cut or amportions

resources, whatever.

Mr. Aaron. Mow I think the final centence is this

important one, and the ornators zhould note this. the proposal

and perhans this ought to ho made sonerhat more clear than it

le now

as to whe will ain this. but the autority tw sorry.

It is clear. But the outbarity of the net to rentorram funds

within the intellianoe mine! should he limited by elecute.

The

raim trellinence mat cal the authority to reone the

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national intelliaence lanet. but to rentaram meners within

that budget.

Now our estimate is that that budget would be on the

order of $3, 1, nerhape in to er billion, depending on what is

included in it, and I anted the white House, the NSC member of

that committee what the murpose of that particular provision

was; and I asked him speritically did this mean that vou would

he able to, as in the case f anaola, renroo am money away

From some, pther part of the hudoet. NeA, iPO, some other major

reparam, and put it into the court military, cara-military

action program?

And ha

said ves. that is the roasen that he is giveh

21

surt of broad euthority to reprogram money.

senator Huddleston.

Well, they were doing some of that.

pren't they?

Mr. Maron. To some extont I helieve that's true, but

I personally don't know what that extent nas:

Nois to the extent re will see later that me plare some

or make some recommendation concernina limitations on the

authoricy to draw moon different funds and to replenish certain

funds for the nuronsas of oovert action, this suares with that

aimposal hy saving that tore amuld be hu statute certain

limitations on the recrearamine of funde.

a those nught to ho there roally

thinkine that the marlah! mul toe could have to cort out.

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Now the next barrant. ? -

Mr. Kirbow. Could "e taka these one at a time hecause

these are rather critical:

Mr. Chairman, one of the things that came before this

Committee when

I quess it was it. Colhy testifying and at each

meeting that Mr. Miller ard the staff had with the people from

the white House and the crn when we

were preparing the oversight

bill, we heard many good re.sons why ve shou'd

nct. derrive the

pet of this ability to

sion certifying out of certain funds

and being able to expend them without a treat hig red tape

machine to hinder that tine of aneration.

If, as navid. savs: his recommeridation here is to prevent

renrogrammina.. excent within verv narrowly defined statutory

limits. is a first sten toward restricting that further

activitv. I would like to ercent on this and have it discussed

before the Full Committee, or in the absence of that, or

connected with it, have the record that ve have that shows us

that ve should restrict hy lericlation here -

Senator Huddleston. What is the major thrust there?

Is it to in fact limit or rostriot or is it to actually have

it defined and specified in the statute as to what circumstances

miaht prevail?

Me. Aaron. The thrust hore is as follows.

The ViCI

can now recrotran ee? lin his oun agency to come extent.

That bedget, depending on bie parts lie can reprogram, l don't

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halieve he can reprogran i within about $750 million of his

own apptopriation.

Senator Huddleston.

tie can't take scmething out of the

usA now and put it over?

Mr. Aaron. No. we

can't do that. But in his new

responsibilities as DCI for preparing the budget of the entire

national intelligence program. he will now be in a position to

reproaram the entire hudoet and therefore. it's a much larger

kind of flexibility.

Now the thrust of thir particular pronosal is not really

aimed, this particular cho

later one we do have. one which

does place some constraints aud the rurpose is to make it clear

•here the money comes from aud where it's going to ao to

make it clear to the Congress at least.

But this particular

one simple says that hacause this is a much wider reprogramming

flexibility, that it ought. to be subject to certain kinds of

definitions and consider the limitations so that the Congress

knows what' is happening to the moners that it approprtates for

particular nurposes.

Senator Huddleston.

well, for this narticular paragraph

would define or aracify, suffire.

the cord limited,

then.

or not?

"2

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Mr: Aaron, It ahould he defined, that's correct.

Mr. Kirkan

the lon to point out, Mr. Chairman. that

that lee donarture

fam the stanlacd reprogramind mincess tha

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been adopted in the Shoote mer the last 10 er 15 vears.

For instance, with the comilton on Armed Services.

Senator Huddleston. For other departments?

ME. KiFisOW..

Where there is an authorizing and an

appropriations type action in the Congress, as Senator Hart

will know from his expericnee on that committee, if they wish

to reprogram missile money mar to aircraft, for instence, it

has to be anproved by all fur of those committers, both

Arms Servions and hoth antonciations committees with the

exact transfer of the amounts of moner and the justifications

al.ven therefore.

My concern is not that the contrass should not have

control of this or that you could make it so rigid by making

recommendations that leare

the oversiaht comnittee and the

aporopriations committee

heirlortbility to do this. And I would

think that unless we have a rary good record on this, we should

recommend that this should he a matter that the overaight

committee in its new rile gives tood considaration to.

MI. Miller. The nerstaht committres and the appropriatior

committees would have floribility. Every appropriations act

is

71

statute. aftor all.

Mr. Kirhoir. Tor

certainly would unless you restrict

whom by starute.

Senator 11111-

titue are quadesting s

statute

chich the nat

mitten chat has: paccer:

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far would have legislntiin.ruthorily over. So we're really

just recommending here that in this statute they provide the

framework under which there kinds of reprogiamming can be

done in view of the fact that un are extending the Dol from his

own little bailiwick to the

entire intelligence community.

Mr. Kirbow. If that's the intent of the committee, I

have no reservations about it.

senator Huddleston: T don't think the militars people.

would obicet to that kind of tanquage, They'd like to have

some definite frameworl for a man to reach into his budget.

Mr. Kirbow. I think ill the varlous agennies would like

have.that kind. of piotection.

Senator Huidleston

Oleay.

Mr. Davis. Nunher C. the DCI should. have responsibility

to review all intelligones activities and intelligence resource

allocations, including tactical military intelligence in order

to carry out his more genaral remonsibilities.

we've used the word "renter" verv carefully here. This

is not a responsibility to diroct those merations but simply

to be able to look at the whole in order to sort of balance it

01!t

5

We're not saving that he's takina over responsibility.

from the milttary coumauder?.

If vou read the fanaut. Order

the lanauade de afford or it rave that the Cil mad the

Del will not have reenacillllo tor taccical militi

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intelliaence, But then it uses the vord midlance. That is that

the DcI will provide quidanoe on the relationship betreen the

two and that is ambiguous to us and so we wanted to make sure

that the DeI would be able In locl at the whole but not have

responsihility for directing the tactical military intelligence

nenararis.

Mr. diGenova. The original drafting of that section C.

I think it's

actually clearir than the.way i's drafted now.

The orinival draft savs. infle the DeI shall not have responsibil

For directina tactical military operations. the Dci shall have

responsibilitv

to revier ill intelligence activities, et getera.

I think the originl me is better hecause it makes it

clearer what vou are trying to say.

Mr. Kirbow. If vou're going to use that for senate.

unli have to sar tactical military intollinence onerations.

Mr. diGenova.

Yes.

There's a word missing from the

prixinal formulation.

Mr. Davis. The reason it was taken out is bechuse it

vas a necative and there

"as the thought that this is saying what

does do and leavina what he doesn't do not to be snid. It's

un to the committee hor cou want to

Mr. dicenova. But in don't want to do the game thing

Precidont did and levie me thing mabinous.

Mr. Paris.!

here wamblem mkind that first statement

Manatee Maadlanen.

IF un want en be positive

you can

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say while the responsibility for directin tartical military

operations resides with whoaver it is. the DCI still shall have

the review.

Mr. Davis.

well, cavior is, I think, the right word

hocause he's goina to tre to look at the whole.

Senator Huddleston.

I think Joe makes a point there

hecause that could lead to some misinternretation.

Me, ravis. Section ! pas on to aste the hirector of

central Tatollinence to antahlish a stafe to sunport him in

these responsihilities and to draw

staff as widely and from

the

best talent that he can.

senator Hart. Is this another staff or is this thei

staff that is in being?

.MI. Davis. This is the staff in boing. ile has always.

had neonle to help him in this role.

senator

Hart.

itir do we have to

authorize him to do

something he! already doing?

Mr. Davis.

we don't want him not to do that. I mean

we want him to have a snoola! staff to carry out these

responsihilities.

Senator. Huddlenton,

This is about the second or third

referced to him having the staff.

Senator Mathiao, My don'e von say maintain instead of

establial?

95

if he duesn't want the elaft?

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Nr. Davis. lo'e durhorical.

He donsn't have

tre.

Mr. Kirbow. He's authorized to have a staff under the

President's executive order or in any other normal course of

hisiness.

This

appears to he dirring down balow the kind of

statutory authority position that you have and telling them how

structure all of the organientions underneath.

That's my objection " that particular asrect of the

reachmendation.

I kind of side with senator Hart. He has the

authority to do his business aud.! don't think anyone in their

wildest imarination would think that the Congressional regord

or history in this would 'petallich that he s sunrosed to do it

"imself.

Senator Hart. You took the words right ou: oi my mouth.

MT.. Kirhow. And I once more say this is one of the

recoumendations that ve recommend be taken out.

Senator Hart. Whole me?

Mr. Kirhow. The staff had had discussions at the staff

level where reveral recomenations that thinos like this be

taken out for that verr trason he considered. and I think it

is inadvertent that they are haci in the redraft.

Senator Huddleston

vall have no strong feeling about

that:

Let's omit that naragrant.

Cruster tort.

To can connection and thate to do this

hut l'd lila to tacky: tierre Dold sailod richt be this

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Tho nirector also mould ho emuowered

to establish a board of sonine advisors.

Now who is that? who le that board?

Mr. Davis. Thia wouid he somethint similar to the board

of national estimates:

Senator Hart.

Is he annovered to do that now?

MI. Aaron. He is not ampowered to do that now because it

was abolished on him.

Mr. Davis. But he could do it.

Mr. Maron. I don' think that's entrect.

Mr.. Maxwell.

He abelished it. It was not abolished on

i 2

him.

Senator Hart. Could r. Blish reconstitute it if he

11

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Mr. Bader.

senator, this is in a ray a call to the

nel. It is based.. I think. or really extensive testimony we

have taken here about the uttlity of the board of national

estimates.

Senator Huddleston.

T. may be more a recommendation than

ari

authorization.

Me. Davis.

At the samn time ve didn't want to tell him

he had to because it i, more or less un to him becanse if he

Anasn't mont to run his her that way

senator lla.

trage nannie?

Mr. Darls.

two at thy lave been former conior

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End?

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oFficials and

academies hon! serve to tavian the estimates

and comment on them for the director.

Senator Hart. Do they perform any function? Have they

in the past?

Mr. Miller. Oh, ves

Tlevelyn Thompson, for example.

There are senior diplomatr. contor military men from the outside

people of distinction, peonle who have seen a lot and have

something to contribute.

Sevator Rart.

Have ther had something to contribute?

Mr.. Miller. Yes..

Mr. Aaron. There ara two functions they can perfor.

More of less. they can hriny their wisdom to bear on the ploduct.

Senator Hart. I want to know what they have done in

the

nast.

Mr. Miller: Sortet

matters. Llewelyn Thompson's roles

for example.

Mr. Aaron. And the ancond thing they have done was to

provide some senior sunport for the pot and the judgerents he

is making.

Now the extent to which that support has been -ranslated

into horsonover is unclear. scent it was sufficient: strong

that

it:

was of concern to the marious admimireration and!

has she of

the reasone that the backd mend othere was die estriched.

mane wing merened any partle in the

cant that no too, of?

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Mr. Inderfurth.

Think that's in relation to helping

to insulate the DCI fron tressures

to modify. him, In the

past,.

•the board of national estimates inst'lated the DCI

from pressures.

-Senator llart. Chile, Moola, all these cases where the

net comes in and says we don't really want to do that but the

President made us, does he bring in the senior advisor

to the

President and

say, Lleively, Thompson doesn't wart us to, either.

MI, Lombard. I think

part of the problem here. Senator,

is that the office of estimates uns created under the Eisenhower

ministration and Fitted vory ell. into the formalistic

may

In which foreian policy vas avolred turing that adminisication!

carnaos as a matter of fact it's been criticized as being overlv

Formalistic and the boerd of ratimates vas

vieved as heing

sonewhat too long rance and comewhat ither world and rot

cared to what the President perceived as being his day to

dav needs on estimates.

Now I don't know there the equities lie in this thing,

but it seems as though there incitutione have changed according

to individual Presidents.

so really. beginning with the kennedy administration,

well. had the decline of thr office of national estimates because

it no loncor seemed to. fis the Fabric.

r'n not more thate really a fair victure

of the histore of the

Perhaps got could toll la since

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voll were

nasociated with it: na!'.

Mr. Kirhow. I want to talk about the testimony that

was given before the committae on this from two of the former

nCIs. Mr. Colsy, at both the broakfast briefings he gave and

in testimon, favored the use of individual intelligence offices

around in these various ancies, originating estimates and

everything else: whereas Me.. Helms,. when he testified here,

savs I really don't know ho, that system is corking richt now.

I didn't favor it when Mr. Colby established it, and ! had the

other sustem and it worked well. for no.

So I think here main you are talking about a man

staffing rennirements as thar suit the narticular times and

the individual as to how he wants to run the intelligence

community and what apparently suited Me. Helms fine didn't

suit Mr. Colhy and he uged

different system which he says

works qreat.

And I say that that is, again, a step down thing.

Unless vou want to encourage him to do it in a recommendation

and not mandate that he do it, it kind of makes him run his

husiness the way you want it run and to no apparent abuse

problems.or anything like that.

Senator Hart.

Well, my only thought here

is that some

future oversight committe. or select committee is gning to be

trving to sinpoint respondibilite, and there are so many boards

and

and mocke te lilde behin! that a ber has or.

mansident or anchody has that

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so main, mu intent. hair is not to be a know nothina.

It

just to keep the structuri as clean as possible to identify

responsibility. That's all. And if this is imnortant to do,

let's do it.

MI. Bader. The record, Senator, and I can only speak

from personal experience with the board of national estimates

I certainly know of at least four estimates with which I had

a nart of

which the board's le was very imortant in shielding

hoth the pot and indead the anglust from the ravages in two

cases of the military who folt very stronaly that the

continuation of our basen in the Azores was much more important

than sav some hard politioal coalities about the future of

portugese Africa..

And I could cite other rises where this kind of

irisulatind function was enotmously important. It had a

great

deal to do with the exparience. the background and the very

prosence of some of these board members.

They also plav a role as the chairman of the conrdinating

sessions of these national entirates.

There's

not just an

arsisor, board that site ulte far from the process.

Rach

rintional intellidence estimite. one of these board menhers

becomes the chairman.

so they do nlar a cary datire role in the neenaration.

Mr. Aaron tube intion that in this connection vout

concern shout the queenlit noblem. which i think is a

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tatr one. He have testingh that lelms' dianosition on this

was very clear. When he inned the estimate it was his estimate

and it really wasn't the hoard's estimate.

Mr. Maxwell. Perhans It minht be useful because I think

it is clear that he is amowered to do it. Two, if the

committee desires to make -loor that as a recommendation, on

the basis of the committee's examination of their record that

this is a desirable thing i wher thar saving that it muld be

enriowered by statute, beanuse he does have that nover.

Me. Kirhow. Is it the deetre of the Committee: though,

to chance the current susten lich the nresent director has

rat seen fit to chance vet, which he has full authority to

change if he ishes to an un and which the nrevious nI

established and developed into a working mechaniso?

MI. Miller. The records show that the function of

the board had been officinl rosults. Then it seems to me we

should so state that it is a demirable structure.

Mr: Kirbow.

Thar one differenos

with Bill. I don't

know that it is desirable tr inculate the DCI

from the opinions

of the respective militar departments if they have a vested

interest in the outonne of the decision haina rendered.

Me. Miller.

The hard has distinmuished memhers from

the military.

that Hot it can

he rued to

isolate.

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Mr. Miller.

Inalate the nolitieal prescure. That's

the point. Not the point of time of minion.

Senator Mart.

Mr: Chairmen, I move that this paragraph

stay in. that le move aii.:

Senator luddleston. "or. I think we discussed that

thornuchly vesterday, as

matter of fact.

Mr. Aaron. On E,

this is the clause which, in effect,

makes clear that there is a definite limit to the DCI's authority

and the limit heind the conduot of warfare, at which time there

should he a clear sustom and procoss wherchy these activities

of the intelligence comunite ever which he has responsibility

in some veneral, sense hore for ludget. and so forth, that these

hasic activitins

come under the secretary of nefense. It's

simply recoonizing the fapt that ve really have to problems.

on the one hand. the conduot of intellinence in what is essential:

peacetime and the conduct of intelligence in wartime.

Me. Inderfurth.

David.. could we net some examples of

what high tensinn means?

Me. Kirbow. We recommended that that come out. Everyone

had agreed on that and I thin! it was but back in: It's somethin

that vou can! defina.

the fecretary of hafense marinel there

very high tension but tha cor may not he willing to are p

his control at that time and cou mind un mith a treating

match

Senator Mart

let carele a phrare of archero national

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amergency mavhe?

Mr: Aaron. Well, " think the way we came on it was to

simply say if vou have the nocess for a tine of war, the

President may exercise it. ant họ may exercise it if he feels

it's a crisis.

The point was tust to have a process and have it understood

what happens.

Mr. digenova. Is i! nod to have a sisten that is

operatina.all right in peacetine and then when you come to the

time you really need, you ain it to somenne alas to run?

Mr. Maron. Well; the renuirements change in time

war:

71.

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Mr. Duanheck. The collection would become almost

completely operational.

The sites would be dedicated to

onnational nurposes and there'd be no purvose to have direction

from the DCI.

In that case it would he a subportina military operation.

similarly, the new gatollite systems would he used to support

ongoing operations.

Mr. direnova. In athar words, vou're saving there wouldn

't

ho very many national Intollidence needs.

Mr., nuanheck..

Hel! coonomic intelligence anulet he

relativel: unimportant. vorification of arms contral aureements

could not be a matter of comer.

"ou'e talking about the use of hardware.

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Mr.. nuanbeck.

MI. Kirbow.

There' no difference of opinion between

the former DCI's -- I don't Inow Mr. Bush's position - or the

former

secretaries of Defense. Everyone concedes that the

control of intelligence chould yo for Defense's purposes in

time of war., the principal control.

Mr. Davis. The noint is: too, the argument in the past

has been the secretary of trense needs the control he has

hail in order to prepare for war and now you're saving

the

Det's noing to do more but van don't vant to upset the

military commanders.

And this to a way of saying that wer

understand that in wartima

jis goint to no back. It is more

symbolic.

Mr. Kirbow. One

nf

the recommendations in the nilitary

area we'll come to later is on this same enbject with the bulk

of the work I quess on the subject being done by that group.

Mr. Davis. This also harpens with the clandestine

service today. . In war the clandestine service comes under the

military commander in the field:

Mir. Aaron. There are sone arrangements of this character

hecause

of the expanded nuthority of the pet that te granted

họth in the order and our ranesed statute. particularly in the

area of reruirements.

It's innocene to hare thie corat if vot vill.

Now reconmendation 1: really sungests that the oversight

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committee look at carrvine the burget

nrocess a ater further

and instead of appropriating: or authorizing the appropriation

funds to the different departments for intelligence purposes,

that in fact they are authorited to the bel who would then

parcel them out, and it doesn't come down hard to say that this

nutht to be done but that this is the next logical step in this

rrocess and it is something for the oversight conmittee's

anenda.

11

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241

nil:

Now number 19 --

Mr. Kirbow. I would like to excent on that until such

time as the whole subiect of the budget and release of the

figures and evervthing elae

is considered. the whole hudyet

acnect at the same time.

Senator Hart. I don't understand this exception procedure.

How does that work?

Mr. Kirbow. Senator Tover has asked the Chairman that

If there was anthing that had not been in agreement among the

staff, that it could he hrought before. that it would certainly

come to the subcommittee.

Senator Hart.

Holl, the Subcommittee can go ahead

and vote on something, ran't they?

Mr.. Kirbow. Yes.

Senator Here. l think every member of the Full: Committee

romarren his ride then ma notter comes before the Full

committee. T donit Mink hare rod to he excertions Filed.

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Its all de novo when i! are in to the full Committer anyway.

Mr. Kirbow. I sinnly indicated to the Chairman earlier

that I didn't want to have a reservation like that and not

point it out to him hecause I didn't want the absent member

to appear to be sandbagging the subcommittee.

Senator Huddleston. Ha's putting us on notice.

Mr. Aaron. Ontion 19, this option steps up to the

nostion of whether the not in his new canacity an the overall

manager df the community: on! ly manager l don't mean down in

the nuts

and bolts but harima

the general management responsibilit

of interneting the budget in torms of ronuirements,

of goneral quidance for the unmadement of some of these

activities. whether that fanation should be secrated

from that

of runnina the CIA as an agency..

Now ve have heard sone tastimony about the inconsistency

between those two responsihilities..

I think the arguments, if

I can set them on the too aldes, could he as follows. And

I by the wav, there's a diffrance of eninton in the staff as

to which of these is the right one to fallen.

The arrument

1n

favor of goira ahead

mog in sararate them is that these

are inconstatant. that mus could have, you remove the DCI

from a conflict of intore. "Ituation in which he is both running

one of the ninoloal artice resnonsthle for not muli clandestine

activitiee but for to mamant of cials intalleenes, the

develement of cartain

enth ald develonment mourong that are

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of reat interest to the camuntty, and vou take him nut of the

position of having to juli? ther people's research and

development, proarams and other people's SIGINi programs, and

other activities when he is the merall director of Central

Intelligence, and that thrrafore this senaration, his removal

finm that, would be a good idea.

The second argument is that you really want to mlace the

authoritu squarely on the mur director of this agency who's

moina to le responsible for clandestine activitios. If he

still has a hoss above hin who is kind of responsible but who

in fact because of his increased responsibilities won't bar

able to rivo the day to day attention to clandestine activities

that he might, if he didn't havo these greater responsihilities

one should make the linee of authority clear and place the

responsibility for the head of this agene: on that agency

leave it there.

Now the armument against that is that ... well, there are

two kinds of arouments roninst. one is that the situation now

is justified and that this is a mood thim and ve on need

to make any change and there are good reasons to belicro that.

The sacond atrument manht follow in the middle and says

inll, there is some inconsintoney potentially. Ther miaht

some arrantager

to menaratin? them an vall as come crate,

hit me hare nor tet ine blared this now cagten there you hara

hronder reaconsibilitie to the lot. ant's soe lat ye works

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autile hafore stennine me the cuestion of whether lie can

really adequately perform and wear both hats.

Those are essentiall, I think, the ronments. If there

are others that

ought to be effered in explanation of the choicet

Mr. Bader. I

would just underline that, Me. Chairman,

thn second point that Dari has made about recommending the

mituation to stay the war it is today. That is, that the

two hats would stay togethie:

I think come of us foal that the period in front of us

will be a period of emperimentation and tasting where there are

new responsibilities that till flow to the Dot.

We'll see how

they work, we'll see there his authorlty takes us. we'll see

whether. he realli.will in fact establish himself ás the

responsible tirector of; in a NCI sense, and ve argued here that

the oversiaht committes should he attentive to this to see how

it works out and

that if comotime in the future after we've had

a chanre to see how those granded responsibilitles work in

practice. that will be a time to see whether the DOI and the

Director of CIA function shoul! he seuaratad...

rie: Aaron. I think birt to arrue the first casa a little

more strongle, if l rould tiere are too additional prints

to be

made about it.

One is that in far

ming the second half..

mining the

•tectivel runniar the

auerall communitr

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so it isn't reall:

lu a tuestion. I would armie,

of seeing where the current erstom takes

us. It's a matter of

looking at what we have loarned as a result oi our inquiry

and saving, in fact. this le mind to he an impediment and it

is my personal opinion and I think supported at least by some

testimony that that would he the case.

The second araument. I think, is a somewhat broader one,

I'm not prepare to make it. Ru' we've hal an

Inquiry iuto the CIA, enmo of ita problems, some of its

accountability problems. comp.of its management problems, and

result of this inquiry there is, at least it strikes me.

heina come inconsistency to he aroued hetween having this

broad inquiry and ending un with a much stronger, larger, and

nore powerful Central Intelligence Agency in every respect

with

greater authority. ruor othor elements of the intelliuence

community.

Now vou can only carry that so far but it seems to me

that there le a serious mention here as to, and it is seen in

nart by other elementa of the intolligence community tho really

are concerned that by wearing the two bats, the del will

still

really he rentesenting the droney vis a

vis their particular

agencies like NSA and the there.

That's the choice!

05

the record that of the cirmesos: ho tootified refore the

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committee. I believe the moord riflects that Mi. Schlesinger

was the only former DCT sie an in favor of separating the

Agency from the Director and all those who were still alive

to testifv who were former directors favored it, most notably

Mr. MeCone and also Mr. Helms. Ne. Helms characterizina. the

director as ending up with a disembodied epirit if he were

donrived of this analvtical whicle.

So I think as far as the tacord goes. I think the record

is

agains; divesting the diractor of the Agency. although

thers

is certainl: evidence fron those who felt that he should be.

Mr.. naron.

Let me see if I can clarify that record a

little more.

First of all: the ceoposal is not to divest him from the

analytical and production function. That ve clearly provide

For and ithat would not tate mlace.

The

second point is that I believe the record goes to

the question of sortina out no saparatina the director as he

has to this time existed in the sort of general kind of overseer

and the kind of jawbone authority that he has had. And the

questions that have been out to the witnegses generally have

been nut in the contest of hat ras; un until recentli, his

authority in that capacity, and t miaht say personally I muld

aarse with that.

think le con car to divorce the director who essentially

onle had tachone antherita

from ar agencr and the specific

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oravity that that gave in. then he would he a disembodied

spirit. But we're talking about a somewhat different situation

now where he

has real authority over the budget.

MI. Kiriow. But also procupposes. Me. Chairman, that you

have decided already that vou're going to separate

the analytical

side of the house un therr from the clandestine side of the

house and out

them into geparate adencies.

I don't believe the ummittee has decided that. The

staff mav.have.

Mr. Treverton. It doesn't necessarily presuppose that.

Mr. Kirhow. If he's going to put the analytical side

of the house over there with the DCI -

Mr. Treverton.

well, in any situation

we would leave

the Del with his responsibility for estinates and a staff to

do that.

I grant that the argument for separating the DCI from

the CIA is stronger.

Senator Huddleston, Nell, he couldn't he without authorits

over the central Intelligence Agency. He recommends the budget

and tasks them.

He dives then the recronaibility and

apportions

the resourres.

Mr. Tombard. tunter i! l could ask a question.

He have had marrie acte who have testifled that you

should not late t??

want the bit from the arency but

Hiat

niration as they then tney it.

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NOw In

question in sia. Assuming that we were to achieve

a11 of the measures in the recommendations that we have here

For the DCI budget and all the rost, it seers to me that that

is an awful lot of work without having to be concerned with the

day to day operations ef the cia.

I don't know. I tret raise the question:

Senator Huddleston. I think that's a rood point.

Mr. Lombard. He Firie of all has to resent the budget

to the president. He has to defend the budget un on the hill.

and that's in at least four committees. And

then he's got to

have an analvtical base, and presumahly the national estimate

function and on top of that, vorrving about the day to day

enerations of the Agency.

I don't know it that is mre than one may should be

asker to no.

- Senator luddleston. Hell, when we talk about major

reorganization and re-assionment of functions, almost, and

we're probably confusina that by continuing to call the man

who is aoint to supervies al! of the intalligence the nct.

Mr. Bader. Senator:

hat ve are entering into here is

nerlod rf transition for the not where he has

new rononsibiliti

shich are not certain at this point her they will ba tanlemented

Part of our nechlen with this decision is, re ha: been

state and mated dog at the costine of fanner lore is

anainat the hacktround oft morone situation.

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it is not really relevant en tie imestion.

DI what the neI will

he doing if, and I underling the word if. these new responsibili

ties that are being thrust on him by hoth tle Executive and

hw the congress, are in fact innamented.

The argument I weild mole here is that the oversight

committee should take some tire and consider this, certainly

in light of how these

reforms, if they are reforms, are

carried out.

seuator Huddleston.

so that's ontion one.

MI. navis.

The teenentive Order in 'an attempt to 10ok

at the problem and to male ene

step which says there willbe

tro denuties, and therefore the Del till have

soneone who s

managing his onerations

and takes some of the hurden off and

that's who they did it.. And in a sense. they recognized the

conflict of interest and thim una a step in that direction

which we are acceptina.

And when you say the neenares the budget. you have

ho a little careful as to what that mans. I mean the money

in still authorized to the donartments. They will still have

their own budgetary procars, and how exactly he gets control

over that at this moint in

unclear. veire alving hin lanquage

about how

it's soing to hinnon, and I think that's the

arament for waitine? short time to moe shether or not he

Mr. Haron. Tate leat sy that e have to look at

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recommendation as tell, not simnly in the eontert of the

President's own proposal? and oun measures that he has taken but

in

terms of the measures which we pronose he inken in statute.

which of course the oversicht connittee or whatever responsible

lerislative committee vill have the nover to dispose of these

aronosals or recommendations.

But in that context it's very clear that we do tive

ver unambimous authority. ver atrong authoritr? think l've

noted a for other pointo thara ve actually strengthened the.

must of t10

Executive order. And so when we look at the

mestion of whether he should or should not whether we

should

at should not reconmend that

in the contert of this kind of

anthority there vill alon be dovelopmant of a statute that

would sonarate these

Functiona, it

has to be seen arainst what

we nropose and not what the reocident just pronosed.

Senator Huddleston. The fact is that if everything

vie have recommended so far ahould

come to. nass and the DCI

should have the expanded ranconsibilitv and authority. he

would

he a more sowerful wan if he was separated from the

meration of the Agency.

He would be a more poverful man then

than he de now as runnin the daoney and being the so-called

coordinator would he not?

Mr. Davis, Thatle corrent, thate the rumnone.

Sanator Millar.

Mahal an done hard goy testimony

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Me. Tomhard.

Senator Huddlesto.

The niA would lavor separating the

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Mr. Miller. General Mion has also said that.

Mr. Kirbow. Goner!

"len at the nooting when this

mar discussed, he indicatc? that this has not created any

problem for him, that he didn't coe any favoritism being

Maplaved on the part of le. "alls and the pionle he malt with.

Mr.. Maxwell. I think that's part of the reason why a

nunher of us had favored ortion winher our, mas that a great

depl of the trouble with the "rosident's trecutive Order and

mr recommendationg pas to qine the Mill 19Te

authority.

But

For the neriod of time in minh that has got boon sorted ot

and we don't have a recont for to tale quay or recommend taking

are essentially the troong that the Dot had used. which in

the future honefully he would not need if recommendations on

both sides come into haine would ho to venken him at a crucial

time as neople try to fill in the vacumn that le created.

senator Huddleston, I think the quection then is whether

or not what ve are recomendin? ectually comes to nass. If it

does come to pass. then thie iran isaud

that neods ta be:

madrassed.

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Ma the 0lher mostion le should we remain cilant on it

-lion me indicator here, loate

7? 1! ME1!

mch twe it has hoon datormined Mat it

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mula be advantageons

enerate them.

Is that what we're mring there?

MI. Aaron. Yes.

t. think thern are really three options.

one is to leave the stuff out. and my own

personal preference

would be to leave it nut antirely if the committon did not

Feel that, if it didn't wont to recommend that.

It's kind of

half-hearted -

Senator Hart.. Uns re Aministration already Inken a

aten in tis direction with the reorcanization?

MT.:

paron.

It has by charming the new denuty out there

and saving he's going to have more authority.

Senator Mart. How does one re ristor disagreement

wi th

that?

Vole

for cention one?

Mr.

Aaron. TE vou thounht that was

inadequate. you

would. vote

for number one.

Senator Matt. I don': think it's inadequate, I think

it's wrona. I vote for oution one.

Mr. Interfurth. Thin alao comes un under part 5(d).

this.whole discussion of ortions separating out.

Mr. Aaron. Thatir a verarable quection, the question

of the structureof the mroco Itself.

Mr. nauts. three we tierution order this now denuty

for the irelligence amir;

is nhysically moving out of

Jamalay and sonine door

That's ripensed to be simbolin

me wall of the apparer:'

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Senator Huddlast.

lou! we enlis it bi just having

narrative statement at the and of all of these recommendations

relatina to the DCI to say that the foredoina,

preceding

recommendations would, If carind out; substantially strengthen

the role of the DeI or ther are intended to do that?

And this brings up the muestion as to whether or not

in this expanded role he should also at the same time he

essentially responsible for the coeration of one nt the agencies

and that this matter, an his duties are excanded, this matter

needs to he considered Further and a determination made whether

or not it's appropriato that he continue to hola

that

responsihility.

That's not a recomnendation.

Tt's just a conmontary on

what we have done.

Mr. Kirhow. .

It highlinhts the noblem and passes it

to the oversight committre, which would have time to

conduct

hearinas

on it after some histrev

had been established on the

nan role.

senator. Mathias.

10u1a gonator lant elaborate on his

belef elatement of position?

Senator Mart. i think the division out there Hat

apparently the President los niked out is a bad one. 'ind I

for one would like to an en roceed somatiere or another as

onesing it.

F!!:

anator:

that

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Senator Hart. Tn't line tude little dotted Jine

noans a damned thing,

frankly.

I've never seen

an. organization

Itle that work in my lif?.

This is the

Ms. Culbreth. That a mur.

Mr. Kirbow.. At the procent time: senator, the Executive

Order leaves the nOt as leod of the ClA with a strona

kind of

enccutive

annute nut thare chat does the day to day curning of

that.

!!!

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sonator Hart.

Ne!1

I like that cually less voll.

That

the same thina.

MT.

Aaron. Senator.

do you hae

is

thare another

anlution that de haven' concidared?

Senator Hart.

roare it the ray it is nor

Mr. Aaron. Make Him run it but give him other

responsibilities in other areas?

Sanator Hart, well, I don't want to name any names but

sonio of the nort of ramelass, Froelose nonnlo that have been

que there running operatlone in effect with sone mague respon

sibility to report unard.

senator Huddleston. Hell, ne tay that in practice when

there other: if indeed those ather roommendations an into effect

and he does arome thie aalitional authority over the rotal

comrade more at harmed weh Me milt to be mortared to

ceo nation or pet

w: eMinional authority aill caht to

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onerating head.

You know, that car in a dissipation of his accountability.

You have a

man that is so imolved in so many other things

that some nameless nerson

is under him calling the shots. But

IF we were

to move him aray tron that: then that nameless persod

becomes the man that ve're incking to as far as the operation

of the ciA is concerner.

Mr. Kirbow. At that ilme too

wotan' von expart that

that person could he named as the Director of the cia. would

he nominated be the Presiden and confirmed by the Senate?.

Mr. Miller. What'e wrong with having the Dci in charge

of the community as long an the deput: is under his directi

conirol?

¡senator Huddleston. Hell. you have the community of the

You don't call the direater out thore the director of the

1SA.

DCT.

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19

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Ile should be consterent.

¡Me. Aaron. Dotion?. no'd have a clear debuty, we'd

1109

who he was. He'd be confirmed he the sonata. Hoi be a.

mAN OF

etature and he couldn't he anybody's deputy. la would

he responsibie.

Me. Kirbor. lla wouldn't he a deputy at all. He'd be

tha director of dIA.

Canta 10A919ckon.

He mat cloudle the donut for

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senator Mathia...coo

*that in artect today except for

the titles?

Mr. Maron. Not pract!!

horause he still reports to the

101. Mayhe nact of vone sugation does to who that person ought

to he and what kind of requiremants there ought to be on that.

nather you want to descrits the lind of person you want out

thare.

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senator Mathias.

scions is really he President's order

excoot to; the semanties.

Mr. Bader. Not. really. Sanator.

Mr. Duanheck, Ontion? actually reparates.

The

would be different from the birector e cia.

Mr: aaron. The nur mou would hold resconcible under

the current system still hug to be the Dor. Under option 2

the suv vou would hold remasthle would he the lead of that

agency and not Me. Bush, in affect.

Senator Huddlestor: !fue so to my narrativenaragraph

Senator Hart. Cane lame that ritten un and brought

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Senator Mathias:

"ruin this could be a critical

recommendation.

Senator Huddlenter. 'us going to say we might add a

line in More that grooson 14 Mavior Ie aud Possible to change

i could ke to airs a ballor.fle on reconsibility for the

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That would be the in asson that would think that

von would move the DCI a feen that.

Senator Mathias. Put it does not apreur to me that you

exonerate vour national intrilicence officer, whatever vou

rall him. just because cou hate comeche

olse you can also point

I think vow'd get too sish on the same hock if

something

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Mr, aaron. I think Meat would be in mart true depending

mnon what the narticular archlon vas.

senator Mathias. loll, nure, if Hieir checkwriter

is

mpt of wack and they haven't called in tha rerairman. they

might confine the respongilility to ..

Senator Huddlestor. Actually, you don't exonerate him.

I see it for the overations of the contral Intelligence

Adency you have added In lm the responsibility for the

marations of the other intallirance agencies. too, and he has

to ravior authority and he in fact would le the focal noint of

any inisdeed or atond dad that may oncur. whether it' in

usa or cia or thatever.

Mr. Aaron. lt pauli valle be very similar to the role

he would no have under tes ryerntive order to the nat..

It's

mah closer to that.

tilla Greener or t

H137°

Mo? rules ant and Mieanne it either

ree: ind

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the next gorin refore to the central Intellinence

"ency in general. Now traure co much of our inquiry is

Focused on the Central Intellinence Aroner, we lave a rather

inna

series of recommendations renarding it.

Now the cections are mriefly thead - thrse dealing with

tha charter for the Aranes. for its conduct of esnionare,

counter intelligence. am covert nation, and the muestion of

covert actinn itself, how i nint he conduced end cit limitatir

'inht specifically or mlos dad reoulations micht annly to

1t.

if!

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0=1.

The production of intelliance hich is on its way,

but

it's not in hore, there ir another sauting Then the impact on

the lomestic world of those merities both intelligence

collection and covert action and l beliare you had a rood

discussion of that longer muer prenared by Mr. Bader the

other day.

And then finally, some diccussions of the insportion

evatem, the general counsel, the insnecter aeneral and so forth

and come recommendationa ta oard to that.

l'inge are

the central. porte of it. It included

of course.

mich

mathere as proorfate.ion, cover ind sa forth

Not fae could time to te firet cot of roomindations

let me quer male cure ten tre dra int digadroomerte in the

Mat Mat Mand Me Create To Meat

tention:

pr Marall

thin taro a0e, There are milde; that

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0 on l bho a l that here left out:

Mr. Aaron. I have muo tara.

MI. Kirhow. Well. Met for your information, there

amnears to be several thines

mich were not just

an orasional

one but several things that vere agreed on at the staff level

that subsequently found their ma back her, in the exact

original lanquade.

But won't duetter poor now.

Mr. Taron.

C'i be tater to tate that ault to due what ne

can do abont it.

Now ale Fire bracket that I Flud la or rare 36.

chare are any othees before tat that poodle have, ve man take

eat: 1189.

Mc. Marvell.

Therete the on

3?. Itle not a bracket but

statement that world hate been included as to the

committee's findings as to intomal controls on espionage

activities is the Central atollicence Agency.

Mr, paron. Yog. I renal! that one.

Mr. Maxwell. Aloo on that page there's no eflective

machinery le nake sure ther shoee outride the clandestine

service.

think that was citrossed to the ClA becous- unless

Finding in made at the all toe the bit at this noir! the

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My wooed fall naratrank on? the vay

it reads, it assumes the in piloctor of the central intelligenc

agency who is outside the mandartine service is not able to

17

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MI. Aaron. I underitand.

You're night.

Okay, if these

are agreed things and the hair been dropned out, then let's

just get them hack in.

"ren't know that we have to take the

subcomitter's time to do

nu; if we missed come tus verd disadreed and need

he brought to the siramittee. I'd like to make gure we

at them out.

sanator Huddleston. it the briton of the nage on

33,

marie it's just mot conin? through to me hut the cia engages

In beth avert and clandestie activity within the United States

For the curnose of forcian intelllaence collection by overt

means from American citizons.

MI. Aaron. l'm sorry.

I think that foreian intelligence

collection. period, and then

Alra rest of that sentence comes

out..

And then it save the domortic collection does the overt,

and

the

foreign rescurces. doon the covert.

Olay, my first tree! is on rage 36 and it is that the

"nomittre munatione ten practice of reocritino for forcion:

tentats degirin. tooricon ciricenshir.

"ho nint was me tot thre have in the mast reen

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PO

istances in which three in irre immiarante to the trited States

who wished to have citi. lin ore then approached by the

intelligence agencies and either sent back is legal travellers

and what have you and the cretion being. the point of concern

hoing that their vulnerable

atatus of wanting to have nermanent

citizershin in the countr: male them more suscentible to

either

actual or implied or aren imagined threats or inagined

coercion.

Mi, dinenora..

quertion about that?

I'm

rotally unfoniliar with the thiect and l'y like to kow what

the evidene was on the remora

Mr. Aaron. It care !: in two cases that I recall

ănd

Td like for mill to sneak to one of thair. one cue involved

the chinese in which the chinose vere aprrached and ured for

this purhome.

I am not avare of any restimony that there was

in fact coercion involved.

The question was the nractice and

whather it has within it olomonts of coercion or at least the

potential for it.

Nory the second came I think voil con sneak ta.

Me. Bader. He have moetred testimony from a professor

Frona university in the couthwoat that roid that he had acted

was the middleman in an aneration of recruitment of Tawish

Pussian imirrants the an ta the bodeed

centos the in partirular

1C?9

interred from de de lagien deuich juntaronts wie

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would return to the United states. I mean the soviet union.

We did not take that testimony any further than receiving his

testimony. That is, we have not taken it to the point of.

asking the agency whether in fact they have such a program

in the Southwest. So the testimony was limited to that one

charge which I personally rave some

real credibility

to.

Ms. Culbreth. Can you explain just what the charge is

here? What is the wrong that ha: been done?

Mr., Kirbow. What's brong with that? That's the question!

I had in the original suggestion at the staft level.

The only human collectiny ve are getting from behind

the Iron Curtain in Russia today is principally either through

our cooperation with the taracli intelligence comnunity using

just this sort of individual and sending them back, or sending

this type of individual from this United States hack inside.

we're not getting the other human intelligence.

Mr. Bader. I was only responding to the question of

what the testimony was.

To go on to the further issue which

I think is going

to be addressed by the comnittee, it's not the question of

whether we should, the Contral Intelligence Agency should be

recruiting foreigners in this country for intelligence purposes

people who may return in their country of ortain.

The muestion in freer the indivinial rio de in the

process of seeking ine joe aitiz nship are in quotes "vulneranle

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to

exploitation for suc! nurposes and whether in that shading

the Committee would want in take a position about recruitment

of that particular group.

Mr. diGenova. My position is this. Bill.. The first

time I heard about this was when I read it in these findings

and corclusions. I never saw a hearing on it, i never saw a

document about it, I never had a chance to comment on it as

a desianee, and I never had a chance to bring it up with my

Senator.

I'm not sure that me ant to say

this, ask

the Senators

to say this, without having.

something in a report about

the practice is, how it's been conducted, who has objected to

it. what's the extent of it, before we start maklug a

recommendation.

We're saving we question the practice of recruiting.

I have no objection to the Committee ultimately making

statement like this, I lust don't know what the record is.

This is the first time l've

ever seen this.

Mr. Bader. That's why I wanted it bracketad so it could

be so discussed.

Senator lart.

What if

ve said we urge the nermanent

oversight committee to loo!: into this muestion?

Mr. Aaron, T thin' it would make some sense to have

otton the Agency in the real that in fact this

ie: nractice

or something that happera.

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Senator Mart. If it's hamening, I don't thin! it should

If we have to sacrifice some human intelligence, I don't think

we ought to have a CIA quy tuggina on somebody's sleeve who's

filling out his immigration forms because it is a very subtle

and very powerful form of coercion.

I don't think it shoul an on if it is going on but

T

think the oversight committre should find out.

Mr. Bader. It's mu personal position on this that

we don't bave the evidence, He have not taken it through to

come to a conclusion on this :

I nersonally think that te's a problem that should pe

nointed out, and I think nechans my own view is that the

formulation of a recommenation to look Intn this

ag a possible,

as a problen would be my recommendation.

I don't believe that is navid's recommendation.

Senator Mathias. I would think that you might as you

contemplate this thing. there are all types of opportunities

For this and I don't have any idea whether it's been done or not,

but I would think an Illegal alien, for example, would be a

tremendous target.

Mr. Aaron. I miaht toot may -

Senator Mathias. I!'s a different nroblem,

Me. Aaron. It's a subtle nroblem hecause abroad i personall

•as involved to a cago in nich someone seaking to endorate to

the united states, hls leatre to do that vas eirloited abroad

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For the purpose of gettin

Him into the Agency:

Senator Mathias. is is the kind of situation I'm

thinking of, perhaps not an illoral alien. but someone who is

in this country in some sort of lagal status but which is of

temporary duration and he wants to change his status.

Senator Iluddleston.. I can see that. Of course you're

not going to get one unless there's something he wants. Most

of them, it's either money or some change in his status.

MI, Aaron. Me drafter! this language to make clear that

they were

really immirronts and they mere not illegal allens

or neople here chanding their status or people outside trying

to set in, but" neonle who are

inside arnlying for their

citizenshin.

Senator Hart. Me could nifer an ontion to have the

Statue of liberty say give us your huddled masses if you work

for the CIA.

Senator Huddleston. I think there's a legitimate concern

and that exploiting people tho legitimately want io be United

states citizens.

I also believe that particularly anvone from the Soviet

Union over hore trvino to hécbmo an American citizon, It's

nolna to protty well diminish his charcos if he does do back

to the soulet union that hei

= roind to be taken into the

confidence oF vor. many sochle mer there.

Mr. Kirbow.

this ie not an uncommon practice for the

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united States.

We've barn doing it in the linited States

military for generations in giving earlier consideration for

citizenship if he serves on active duty as an alien in the

United States armed forces.

It's been done as long as I can remember and I was

in

the military over 25 years:

Mr. Maxwell. I think the only question is if we m

recommend arainst this pracsice if we

don't even know

Senator Huddleston. It bothers me that

we would indict

the Agency with such scant evidence we have.

MI. Aaron.

My recommendation is that we jet the Agency

on record as to whether this is the practice or not.!

Mr. Kirhon: I recommand it be dropped from this if

we had only one witness and re've not heard the Agency or

that we develop a record to sunport both that and the same

part of that first paragraph, which I con't think we have a

record on either.

Mr. Aaron. We do have a record on that. It's an

interview record, it's not a anorn testimony record. But the

first sentence. there is an interview to support that.

Mr. Kirhow.. Mr. Chairman. I think the subcommittee then

should carefully consider whether or not it is concerned about

the use of American companies

In the nursuit of foreign

intelitoence and it so. to this tanants on anybody e rights

or otherwise.

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We just went then! this the other day with the labor

unions. The whole paragranh.

Senator Huddleston. T have some concern with that too.

When we talk about expresaly prohibiting penetration of

American companies, it seems to me that the question is whether

or not we're penetrating those companies with company executives

being unwitting or whether -

MI. Aaron. That's the point.

Seuator Huddleston.

It seems to me the real problem is

when we were doing it secretly.

MI. Aaron. And that's the point.

Senator Huddleston,

The company ought to have the

right to make a

determination as to whether or not its interest

would be severely jeopardized if this were to happen.

Mr. Treverton. I think this

lanquage probably isn't

clear enough. If we did human

penetration without the

knowledge of the company on the operation of the company

primarily :-

Mr. Kirbow. We're talking about

a corporate operation

against a U.S. company in the United States?

Mr. Treverton. Presumably it would not be in the u.s.

Mr. Kirhow.

If that's what's intended, it does not

convey it to even an inferred reader:

Senator Hustlector, ioll. in sar forelgn intelligence

collaation.

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Mr. diGenova. May I eel in this regard, it ends up.

by saying, although accordint to CIA officials such activity

has not taken place - what's the other evirence that it has

which created the sentence?

MI. Aaron. In looking at what the foreign rescurces

division does in the way of penetration of businesses as

opposed to collecting agents on campuses or in some other

walk of life, we found that the I'D actually runs agents in

only a fer cases.

The cases are Americans amployed by local industries in

the United States or consulates.

In other words, in airlomat consulate establishments

in which there are few

CARes

In which indeed the Americans

working for those diplomatic establishments are agents of the

cIn through the foreian resources division, and the Americans

are not officers of the CIA but they were agents of the CIA

in. that resnect.

Me. Kirhow. They work in the embassies

as you say?

Mr. Aaron. Yes, lare in the United States, and this

is talking about domestte impact. This is not the foreign

situation.

There has been at laagt one case and I bellve there are

two but only one I can spectfy: In which the FRD had i

Anerican agent in a foradan compony, a foroion bared meany.

It was very mambiquous that tha company vas a forela company

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hecause in effect it var a nublie company of a

countr, whose

most business enterprises are ouned by the government. But :

it's a company and it's husiness and it was a foreign company

and the question was, and it related to -

Mr. Kirbow. And this agent was apparently here in the

United States?

Mr. Aaron. Collectina intelligence on the activities

of

that company because that company had foreig! policy implications

for us.

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The next question

that was put to, I believe, the chief

of the FRD was do you have any regulations that prohibited

You from

doing the same thing with an American company? And

the answer was no, we don't, although we don't do that or

re haven't done that or

something to that effect.

That is essentially the story and how it came to pass.

Mr. Maxwell. There's some question on both of these

whether there are ways of saving things that are important

recommendationg without tmolving that A, these had gone on

and B, that we have a record to support that.

There's also. I guess, a slight question in my mind

as to the order of maanttute of the recommendations that flow

from this in the promulation of a specific directive.

That's slightle out of synch with the order of some of

the other recommendatione. The committee might vant to choose

to dron that to a

fontante or to no it in sone other ray.

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Mr. Maron.

The torommendation that relates to that is

where?

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MI. Maxwell. I thought that we had made a finding. It

was. number 25 on 39.

That's a somewhat different order.

Mr. Aaron. no I tako it that -

Senator Huddleston. Is this penetration always in the

context that it's unwitting?

Me. Maron. Yes. If It's witting, it's really collaboratis

which is another matter.

Senator Huddleston, So although you could be witting

Mr. Aaron, Well. the penetrating also applies and

mayhe we should also make this clear, but for the purposes of

conducting some creration

with regard to the organization,

whether to make it do something in the covert action sense

which. collect information on it.

If it were simply unwitting cover, that's a different.

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thing.

Mr. Maxwell. I don't think, navid, that penetration was

used in a context in the agency in the MH/BOUND

Me. digenova. Penetration was for security purposes.

It's to discover whether or not there is in fact a fly in the

ointment with regard to the security nt an American company.

That's the way it was need in Mil/BOUND.

Senator muadleston.

That'e putting a

soy in the

ormanization.

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Mr. digenova. Well. ves. In this case they penetrated

Burbank, California and other companies, mostly defense

contractors building planes in order to find out they had.

security risks, a laborer or an executive inside.

Mr. Maxwell. It was witting to a certain extent.

Mr. Bader. I think oe of the problems we have here is

this question of whether in our formal recommendations that we

should enjoin the agency fron doing things that they don't do.

And where, there's no evidence they have any intention

Mr. Kirbow. The '47 Act prohibits this kind of conduct

within the United States.

Mr. Bader. And. I thin: that that should be catefully

considered. We have no evidence

• that the Central Intelligence

Agency penetrates Congressional staff, but we have not put it

in as a recommendation that they should not benetrate

Congressional staffs.

I think the other matter that has been raised about thei

onerational exploitation of recruiting individuals who are in

an immigrant status and sockina a change a change in etatus,

we do at least have what. I hold to be a responsible source

saving that this practice, he has seen this in practice.

I think

we should separate the two issues

and on the

second one it seems to me that if we could frame some languagei

that is language de caution ind concern. or

we should move very

nutckly. it seems to me. to take come testimony fron the Agency

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on that matter

before

talk about the matter of the

practice of recruiting because I don't think we can use the

word practice until such time as we have -

Mr.

diGenova. I didn't mean to impugn the integrity

of.

your source.

The question is if the Committee gets asked a question:

about it later on and

someone comes back and reviews these

records and sees one mersen

as spoken to or something. I

don't really think that's much of a record to go around making

findings and conclusions in 1 final report.

It has nothing to do with the integrity of the man from.

whom the information came. He's probably right.

Mr. Maron. I'd like to recommend that on that particular

coint we tried to nail down with the Agency a little more

carefully what the current policy or nractice is and on the

question - but I still stand with the view, I might say, on

the second one of expressing concern if indeed there is a

practice and we do know that some of it has taken place in the

past, if there's

still no guard against it, then I think berhaps

Senator Hart's recommendation about how the oversight committee

should pursue this question further would be sufficient.

Senator Huddleston. Well, paragraph 22 over on 39.

if

applied to the EpP. would to a

pretty good approach, I think

Mr. Aaron. That could not necessarily cule out - it

would not ston un to ties inestion. This really is aimed abroad

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at the question of duploation with overt reporting by the

military attaches or by bie foreign service or whomever.

In other words, it's trying to establish a standard.

Senator Huddleston. Dray, so where are we?

Mr. Aaron. I think we're at the following point that

as far as the bracketed sentence is concerned, we'll go back

to the Agency and estahlish what the practice is when review

is necessary of including the paragraph alone the lines

suggested hy senator Hart saying the oversight committee should

Inok into this particular prentice if indeed it is a practice

with the absence of pollay on this point.

As to the question of American companies, I think I

still need to be directed as to how to deal with chat. I

think when in doubt, delete.

Senator Hart:

Can we just commend them for that? Can

we say it's a good practice?

Mr. Aaron. Well, the Committee notes that it's been

the practice not to do this and that that should continue as

a part of their standard proceduras.

Senator Mathias. Have we ever commended them?

Mr. Bader. There is much text here which talks about

sensible, responsible practices.

Senator Mathias.. I do think you should mention that vete

talking about their domestic operations of American companies.

Mr. Aaron. Yes..

FRo is supposed to tell

you that but

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it doesn't .

Senator Mathias. I think on page 36 and 39 it ought

to refer to domestic operations.

Mr. Kirbow. I think we might want to consider too that

there's an extensive section of the domestic activities of the

CIA coming into the domestic task force report, the subcommittee'

report: And if don't pit in a:

comment like this, it'll

orobably ' all go

in that other section. Whereas here we're

dealing with an apparent nossihility that sometime in the

remote future there could be an abuse and there"" dealing with.

the abuge pection and thia kind of doparte from what you in

done otherwise.

Mr. Pader. I would say on that score that this is a

foreion intelligence matter. That is the objective. And I

think if it's going to he mentioned, it should be mentioned

here.

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Mr: Kirbow. It is on the immigrants, but I don't think

whether or not

you're penetrating an American company to,

illegally or anything else. If there's any way you can get around

the 1947 Act which prohibits that kind of activity hy the

CIA In the United States

for whatever purpose, to nenetrate

them other than security of your own facility:

Me. Masweil. One thirs that misht make this enzier is I

think that if wearressed any oneern in

that direntirn existe

in regard to this practice. in would det one pronularted quita

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muickly.

Mr. Aaron. I would recommend that we accept the

suggestion that we put this in a positive sense and proceed

on that basis and

clarify the word penetrate and the fact

that it is the domestic aspect.

Mr. Kirbow. Could ve ask the. Agency to comment in:

some way.

so that at least we don't recommend to you that you

Mr. Maron. I'd be hanny to do that again.

Senator Huddleston. Well, now it's 12:00. I hope there's

some way we can get through this today, which would include

of course a night session which Senator Mathias and I are

avallable

for.

We've done 38 pages out of 160.

Mr. Aaron. I think it will give focus essentially on

the recommendations and the bracketed portiong that that

should prove possible to at least break the back of it.

Senator Huddleston. He can at least try.

Mr, Aaron: If ve come back at 2:00. I think we coüld

probably have cleared awav a couple of the other sections and

then we will

be really ready. He will have the full book here

and

we can go at it.

Senator Mathias.

2:00, I think. would be better for me.

Let's say 2:00.

senator Huddleston.

rie'11 adjonen until 2:90.

(Phereunon. at 12:00 o'clork noon, the hearing in

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AFTERICON SESSION

12:20 p.m.)

Mr. BAder. Mr. Chairman, before you begin I might..

mention*

that tomorrow morning at either 9 or 10:00, depending

upon whether this subcommittee meets tomorrow morning, we've

arranged for representatives of the FRD, the Foreign PEsources

Division of the Central Intelligence Agency, to give us:

testimony on some of these issues that have been raised, such

'as."

the use of immigrants, some of the figures that they've given us.

and this question of penetration of American businesses.

That will be scheduled, as I say, at either ? or, 10:00

depending on whether the subcommittee meets tomorrow morn

We would like to have a Senator swear those witn

ses

and

then obviously any Senator who would like to attend is

invited.

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senator Huddleston.

meet probably at 10:00.

My thinking now is that we would

M. Bader. We could certainly do it in an hour's time.

Senator Huddleston. J would like to attend

that session.

Mr: Bader. So we'll start at 9:00 promptly:

Senator Huddleston. Senator Mathias had the suggestion

that in view of the fact that there is specific legislation

relating to that subject and that's in the Immigration Act

Mr. Bader. I've asked them to be prepared to speak to

their interpretation of the

provisions and restrictions

thes

Immigration Act.

Senator Huddleston. But our recommendation is that

ve would review the act and the practices.

Mr. Bader. If we have this room, as I hone we do, we

would take the testimony right here and if need be, move it

to another room.

Senator Mathias, In the event that I should not be

able to he here, and I hone I will, I think we ought to look

at this

thing pretty.closely.

senator Huddleston said earlier, you don't recruit

these

people inst

out of the blue unlesg there's some reason

for them to sign up, and I don't think we mant to be too

critical of recruitim

marions: to. rovert to the phrase that

used vestorday, thes: " consenting adults:

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I think what we hayn

look at is the degree of coercion

which is implied here, the lind of bind that you get these

neople in where they really are perhans totally alienated from

wherever they came from: and what sort of a crack do you put

them in and that not only goes

to the humanitarian aspect of it

but to questions over liability and the rest.

Senator Huddleston. I think they could be very helpful

8

to

us.

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Mr. Bader. Senator. I could also try to adjust the time.

Senator Mathias. It could he lefore or after our afternoon

meeting, if that would be more in your reach.

Senator Mathias. Hell, I haven't gotten my walking papers

for the morning yet.

Mr. Inderfurth. :

It's interesting in this respect to

th

about bee llarvey Oswald; ahout his being over there, and welre

talking about immigrants coming here and defectors and so on.

Senator Mathias. It's the other side of the coin.

Senator Huddleston. There's a question of how many doors

we ought to close.

Senator Mathias. Me. Chairman, I regret to raise a

further complication. There's a meetina that I had for 6:00

that's now been nostponed to f:30. So it would prohably mean

I can't get here until 7:30.

Senator Huntlestor.

Mayhe 7:30 would be a bettor time:

I don't know.

These penple need to get out and det sore fresh

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atr too, I rould expect.

Before we get into the substance here, I understand that

our new mandate is if possible.to.complete ours no. later than

"riday. So we're going to tre to shoot for tomorrow.

What the Chairman would like to do would be for us

to

have our report in some kind of form that we can give to the

Full Committee by Friday so that they can review it over the

weekend and the Full Committee can start on it on Monday.

Now how do you think von would stand. on that proposition?

Mr. Rader. This is the princinle findings, conclusions

and recommendations?

Senator Huddleston.

ves; which would mean that wh

evar

changes we are making here in

phraseoloay and so forth. should

be incorporated and retypad.

We have that problem.

Mr. Aaron. I would think that that's do-able. I mean

it remains to be seen how extensively you would want to

dehate some issues and the extent to which you will simply want

to bracket. them or identify them and have the principal

discussion take place in the Full Committre.

But I would think that that's feasible.

Senator Huddleston. In delay it past Friday, of course,

would delay the time that the Full Committee coula consider it

heralise they need to have it in their hands at least one day.

It might ao fast in the Full Committee. I have no war of

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knowind.

Mr. Kirbow, Bill, hecause you and I both know Senator

Mathias's previous intentions stated in the letter to the

Chairman, was

there somewhere a discussion about releasing

this piecemeal ahead of time that might. that should do on the

record here?

Mr. Miller.

If it's agreeable to the Subcommittee. to

get it done by the weekend, he nroposes that they take up

In Full Conmittee the findings and recommendations of the

Foreian aroun.

The domestic group is much further behind, so they

would not take it up until about the 24th.

The question of whether

to release any information or

any report that may be decided by the Committee

Senator Huddleston.

Wa'1l let the Full Committee decide

that when they get the report.

Now where are we then on the report part?

Mr: Aaron, We havé, 'e're in an extensive program of

trying to get the Agency's vlaws as to what information is

sources and methods and what Is classified for other reasons

and what have you.

We have. I believe. all but four

papers have heen read

by the Agenoy in one form or another and are

in the process

of

goind. out there. The four that are not are the Congressior

oversight and the ciA budget paper, although the budget section

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of

the defense report, which in the substance of that has

been

discussed at great length with the Defense Department and they

are happy with it except - well, happy with it may be an

exaggeration but they have no prohlems with it except for the

numbers and the committee itself vill have to steo up to the

question of whether the large numher of any subsets of numbers.

will be released:

The internal oversigit. the Office of General Counsel

and Inspector General has not been.

Is that right?

Mr. Maxwell. That's right. No material that was

sed

there was derived from classified material.

Mr. Aaron. So that shouldn't be a problem. The

general papers on covert action and espionage have nut been

given to them. They are just being completed by the staff

essentially. All the others, and the chemical and biological

one has not been shared with then.

Now beyond that all the others, I believe, have now

gone out to the Agency in one

form or another. The only one

that seems to he approved, or at least we've gotten the go-

ahead

on. is the Department of state's paper and the Department

requested one deletion, which we are prepared to make.

Serator Huddleston. All right, then. As I inderstand

it. the chaimian. if ve are able to get ours to him so the

Full committee can hartn on findings and recommendations on

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Monday or Tuesday, even. His hope is that during the course

of the next week the Full Conmittee will' finish that.

In the meantime, of course, we can still be working on

these reports looking toward: hopefully, if we could have those

bu the end of next week, too, then the Full Committee would

be in a position of at least having the material available to

them if we decided to release everything at one time or if

we needed a few more davs to refine the reports themselves.

That's about as much as we can hope for.

Mr. Maron. Diay: I think that to he realistic about the

see material, it do a ser loner and i think to sa gile.

proud

of the material we will want to he sure that we

ve

gone through it.

So therefore

I think the end of next week is probably

not realistic of having it in share for the Full Committee to

bless it.

On the other hand, I think that before the end of the

month it would be posgible to have a product, unless we run

into some enormous sna..

Senator Mathias. But that

does not contemplate the

executive review.

Mr. Aaron. No, T'n sorry, that is including executive

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review:

Mr. Miller

nut it does not contemplate printina.

Mr. Maron, That a correct

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Mr. diGenova. Yesterday: Mr. Bolton indicated to me

when I was there that there was no way that they could complete

sources and methods review by the 15th of March, and I said

I didn't see how they could either, since they had just really

begun having access a week or so ago or whatever it was.

And they seem to think that the end of the month is probably,

considering the rewrites and a chance to look at the rewrites--

Senator Mathias. I have been independently advised of

the same thing, that the end of the month is marhe a little

ootimistic:

Mr. Miller. Senator Church just talked to Directo

Bush

and I talked to Mitch Regovin Just prior and worked out an

arrangement on the question of clearances of sensitive material

and the Chairman told Me. Bush that he will take whatever time

is required, he asked for expeditious effort on their part.

MI. Bush said that he would urge his troops onward, and he

recognized that there had been snags and difficulties. The

Chairman said that he was not going to press beyond tha

capability of either side. He wants to do the proper job

and whatever time is required.

He sald that he hoped that we could cooperate and work

It out so that we could fintch by the and of the nonth.. And

Mr. Bush said that he would make every effort to do that.

So that seeis amicahir between the Chairman an! the

Director.

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Then the question arone about the deadline on the 15th

and the Chairman is going to ask that this deadline be set

aside because of the problems of not being able to finish:

security and those other matters.

So he is taking stops to do that now.

Senator Huddleston. But I think it's still encumbent

on us to make a special effort to move as fast as we. can,

and

we plan to no ahead tonicht.

Okay, now we get back.

Mr. Maron. We're on page 37 and the procedure we're

trying to follow to expedite thinas is to look narticular

at the

recommendations and it the bracketed language.

Now recommendation 20

Senator Huddleston, Refore we det to 20, there's a

prohlem

In wording. "The last paragraph before 20, the

Conmittee also found that. there's no established inter-Agency

mechanisms

For establighino the hona fides of defectors.

You've used

established twice there.

Mr. Aaron. I think we can take the first one out.

Ms. Culbreth. We might say, David, that the staff hopes

take a real editorial shot at this

hefore it gets published,

anwway, and maybe even befre it gets

to everybody next week,

and

we would hope that ive can get a lot of these thinde,

But certairly. mr that cou sne that you want.

he sure that we ant to noint

out.

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Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman: on that particular thing, at

the staff level I had bracketed that entire paragraph hecause

I'n not sure what we're treing to accomplish by what you say

there.

This is probably the most difficult task that faces

counter-intelligence orgnization any place in the world

is to establish whether or not a defector that you have just

picked up is a double agent or not.

I. listened to the man who has done this all his adult

life at the Agency, Mr: Angleton, and he never made it clear

just how you ever are sure that you have a bona fide.

And then his follow-on said basically the same thi

What do ve intend to do with this finding? Do we intend then

to legislate something? Nhat are we going

to do with it?

Mr. Aaron. The finding goes to the recommendation later

that there be essentially for other purposes. But a

subcommittee of the National Security Council on the subject

of counter-intelligence which would look at other matters

and

we will get to that in a momant, but aiong its tasks is that

It would be a forum in which differences of opinion as to the

bona fides of a defector could be discussed and potentlally

Isconciled.

Mr. Angleton testified and spoke at length in other

forums with us about the foot that when - that at cresent there

really is no way that there's a difference between the rBI and

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crA as to the hona fides of a defector and there's no way for

the government to come to a decision about it.

And this really makes that point and leads to the further

point that we believe there nught to be some mechanism whereby

some decision can be reached. Mow people may still have.

reservations, as. they do about this particular individual we

refer to here. But in the end one has to make a decision and

simolv keening him in a jail some place is orshably not a

useful way, to proceed, and in fact, this is

the kind of

recommendation that comes from Mr. Angleton and seems to be

supported by other neople, even his successor at the Agen

Mr. Kirbow. Do we have any place in our findings

discusses the so-called, this single case of some sort here?

Is there some evidence?

Mr. Aaron. Yes.

Mr. Kirbow. It's going to be in the report when somebody

else

reads this? They'll be able to go some place else and

see what vou're talking ahout?

Mr: Aaron. That's correct. It will be in, I believe it's

in the paper on counter intelligence. It's also addresged

in the Pockefeller Conmission report.

Now as the first rerammendation. I think that we have

arread

at the staff level to take out the brackels and out a

Footnote which could make it clear that while the mrimary

mission nt the CIA woull he to collect denied or trotected foreign

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intellidence information.

what this would not, vou know. that

at the same time the Agency could be directed to perform such

other collection tasks as directed by the Nsc.

In other words, the point is that certainly they do

some overt collection. Por examnle, foreian broadcast information

service is done by them as

a service and so forth. But at the

same time the noint of alving the CIA a charter is to give it

a charter for its primary mieston and as set forth NSCID 5,

for example, that mission in to conduct espionage.

analysis?

Senator Mathias. What about the role of statistical

That kind of analysis that can be deduced from

study of voluminous quantity of economic information much

of which is public?

I'll no back to the hall bearings. the ball bearing

factorv.

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Mr. Aaron. Well, this goes to the point really of

the organization of this sectlon. There's a separate section

on the production of intalligence which would authorise the:

CIA to produce national Intalligence. That kind of thina. The

Central Intelligence Agency

as the producer of national

intelligence must he the recipient of all intelligerce flowing

Into our overall national intolligence effort, and that

Intellicence includes cort intelligence as collected from

the Trendury Departmont, trem commerce from labor attaches

abroad. the full soon: af infermation collecting, most of which!

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is not secret or clandestine and is available to the CiA and it

would be their job to compile it.

And that does not

exclude other functions.

For example,

the analytical function is not mentioned here. This is simply

to rive it the collection function and that is because the

paper is simply organized in that fashion. It doesn't try to

step up to the whole charter, every aspect of it. We just try.

to hreak it rown.

Mr.. Maxwell. Should there be a kind of overt foreign

Intelligence which the NSC with the mechanism for allocating

priorities

within the intelligence community

should

done by the CIA?

It could under the formulation now do that.

Mr. Aaron.

That's why for examole there's one thing that

they do that's overt. Even their clandestine people abroad

do an overt collection job

and that is biographic information

and that, while it was once in the State

Department, was

transferred to the CIA hecause they have a lot of clandestine

biographic Information and as a matter of centralizing and

efficiency the decision was made to move it over there.

That kind of thing would not be precluded and wuld still

exist.

Now it goee on to state that in doing thir we would also

recommend authorizing the did to marry out the recruttment of

agents within the United Statas for this purpose.

And it goes

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Further to say that there would he an annual review of this

activity by the senate c'orsight committee and by the

counter-intelligence committee which we proposed be established

and has been agreed here as a recommendation of the National

Security Council.

Now the further sentence that is in brackets calls upon

the Attorney General to certif

to the President and to

the oversight committee that these actions are being taken in

a manner that does not violate the Constitutional rights of

American citizens or any other provision of law.

Trying to keep track of the domestic intelligence

recommendations is a little hit like painting a moving train,

but this tends to coincide with their recommendation, and the

purpose of this is obviously to place a little tighter

restriction and more authority in the hands of the Attorney

General to ensure that these domestic espionage-related actions

that are conducted on

a covert or clandestine basis aré in

fact not infringing on Constitutional riahts or attempting to

break the law in any way.

Mr. Kirbow. You're scally talking about recruitments

noir.

You're not talking shout other clandestine and covert

activities and operations?

Mr, Aaron. That's correct. It's not, for example, if

vou were to establish a hare in Florida for the purposes of

harassing Cuban shipotra.

That would not come up here.

TOM

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Mr. Kirbow. And the bracketed Information, Mr. Chairman,

was that I didn't feel at the time we considered this and I

asked that it be bracketed, that the Attorney General who is

never going to operate in this area alone, he is not going

to make these decisions without staff support of some description,

and if he's going to do that with people in the Department of

Histice, which is where he gets the staff, the concern of the

people in the Agency about broadening even within their own

agency those people that know about the agent procurements and

where they are and whom they are is of vital concern. It's

probably one of the most carefully guarded secrets. Even:

extent that Mr. Colby testified before

this Committee inde

_the

oath, he said, I don't want to know the names of the agents

hecause someone may want to decide

some. day to wrassie it

nut of me.

I don't know what

the Attorney General certifying here

does

for you if

on the sane subcommittee you have the DCI,

who to the President's principal man, you have the secretaries

of state and all these other people apparently at the beck and

call in intelligence matters to put the Attorney General and

his staff Into the agent procurement business.

Senator Hart. Not in the agent procurement business.:

Mr.. Kirhow. I mean with knowledge uf agent procurement.

Senator Hart. Well, the Attorney General is in the

business of upholding ind defending the laws of this country

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and he can't do that if he doesn't know when one of the agencies

of the Federal government night be breaking them.

It's a chicken and

eag situation.

MI. Kirbow. You think he should approve the policies

Or

the actual procurement of the agent.

Senator Hart. The procedures. Nothing in here. I mean

we have araued this thing for 13 months, there's nothing here

that reuires the Agency to turn over names of their sources

or anythin like that.

The Attorney General doesn't need to know the names

even

more than Bill Colby does, or less. Tust to find out

hat

the procedures of violating the laws of this country, thats

all.

Ms. Culbreth. Could

I raise another point, Mr.

Chairman?

It seems to me that one of the concerns that you have

with having the Attorney General certify in this specific

case to the

president and also to the oversight committee

ts a consistent problem that I think runs throughout our

recommendations.

on the one hand, we are describing for accountabtllty

within the Frecutive Branch of the proper people, and en the

other hand we

are afraid that if we make him accountable, we're

alving him so much pover tiat they are soing to dierenard the

constitutional obligations.

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In this specific mibuntion, for example, we've already

not the

Attorney General heing involved with the oversight

responsibilities. When he takes office he already has the

obligation to see that all the laws and activities of agencies

are carried out as they're supposed to be.

And in addition to that, we are proposing in another

part of our recommendationg that the general counsel and the

inspector general of the CIA be subject to

Senate confirmation

so that there are lots of other kinds of checks, and I would

just hope that as the Senators consider additional proposals

live this. that we don't get to the point that the Congres

is hamstringing them inside the agencies on how they carry

oilt the responsibilities:

Each one of these standing by itself may look like,

well, this is a good idea and we should have this additional

certification or this addition chain of reporting and making

sure vou get it authorized.

But I have a fear after having looked through a good

bit of this, that we aro getting too many layers in there, and

I would jugt urge a caution if thore; are situations where we

mave have it pretty well covered until ve tet some opportunity

to see how thir new set-un is going to work, whether we're

going to have the kind of abuges ve had before:

Maybe we don't

need each of these detaila of Congress voing down Into the

arencies and saving hor ther an about their day er day business

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Mr. Migenova. Mr. Chairman, I would add in that regard

that with regard to the shootic recommendation, this 18

not going down into the Atency. This is talking about the

Attorney Ceneral who is the head of an agency, first of all,

and the history has shown that other Attorneys General who

took the same oath that this man did didn't do their jobs

and

one of the reasons was that they didn't know ahout certain

thiners.

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And the nurpose of this provision is to make them aware

of what is soing on, to make legal. judgements and to advise

the president

about the legality of procedures attending

recruitment of agents and other activitles within the confines

of the United states.

The provision for confirming the inspector genaral and

goneral. counsel is a wholly unrelated thing to this. although

It doesn't on to the prohlem of reaching down into the Agency.

I don't see how that

does that becalise he's going to

be dealing with the DCI.

Senator Huddleston, Contrary to many of the things. that

we do, we provide ways to correct abuses once they've happened

and it seems to me this Is a nincipal way of truina to avoid

abuses to start with:

If ! were on the overstght committon I vould certainly,

and lf were

neting the information that we contennlate the

committee rould get, then that is ve would know aboid these things

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would certainly want to lot cather or not the chief

law enforcement officer of the country thought they were

Jegal or illegal, or if there was a question about it.

Senator Mathias.

I have a real question.

if I were

Attorney General whether I would sign what ve would call for

here.

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Senator Huddleston.

The certification bothers me a

little bit.

Senator Mathias. How could I as Attorney General say

that I certify that all the actions in this area do not violate

constitutional rights of Amerlean citizens or any other provision

of law?

I have worked in a state law department and had to

stan some certifications

much simpler than this, and I agonized

sor them. And this is so far heyond the personal knowledge

of the Attorney General for him to make any kind of certification,

I think we should get him involved but I question whether it

should be s certifying.

Senator Huddleston.

What's the sten just under actually

certifving?

He could review.

He soild certainly taise, red flag:

His nath would require that he do somethina.

Senator Mathlas. If you force him to cer:ify. I think

rou're doina to oct such a rich-washy thing that to his

knowledge and he was mot satisel ts the contrary and stutt like

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that.

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Mr. Aaron. I think that's a fair point. The question,

I quess, the case at which the certification would run most would

add to what already, is in the sentence

preceeding it which"

is review. by the Committee which the Attorney General is

to chair, would be the case in which the Attorney General is

aware of a particular activity, is aware that it is illegal

but tust doesn't do anything. about it on

the theory that it

is somebody else's businesa. And he doesn't really, he doesn't

have an obligation in this category of matters to render

a indement and bring it to the attention of the President

the congress.

Senator Mathias. Why don't we say this, that the

Attorney General be required to advise the President and the

oversiaht committee that he is familiar with the procedures

established to accomplish this purpose and that he is not

aware of any violation of the constitution or other law in:

the execution of the action..

I think you can lay that kind of a burden on the Attorney

Genéral .

-==

Mr.. Aaron. Would it he cossible to just make it sort:

of a reporting function in which he said; and this is in the

same Airection, the Attorney General vill he required to

advise the President and the ovarsight comnittee if he tinds

that there options are beiny taken in a manner that vinlates?

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Senator Huddlestor.

Yes. First he must review them.

Mr. Aaron. And if he finds a violation, evidence of

violation, then he must report to the Presidant and the

oversight committee. Just place the responsibility there.

Senator Huddleston. If in his opinion.

Senator Mathias. I wouldn't have any trouble with that.

Me. Maxwell. I have one other point on that paragraph

and that is it provides for annual review by the counter-

intelligence committee of the National Security Council.

I had understood we were dealing with the recruitment

of agents for the United States foreign intelligence purpoges:

and the question is whether the counter intelligence committee

which was

to focus on resoliing issues involving the bona

Eldes of defectors, issues hetween the FBI and CIA, would be

the body which would have the appropriate knowledse in the

positive intelligence value, or whether it should be assigned

to a counter-intelligence function.

It's simply a question of where the responsihility

should be allocated for revieving those within the National

Security Council

structurs, and I wasn't clear whether the

counter-intellidence committee was the appropriate one.

Mr. Aaron. Well, on that point. the purpose of setting

un the counter-intelligence committee is essentlilly to look

at the domestic imact of our intelligence activities. the

notary ones being in the

counter intelligence field but also

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in the

rositive intellimme riot.

In

fact, the respition of the hona fides problem is

much smaller aspect of thoge two problems hui the existence

of

the committee with some knowledge of the problem of.

counter-intellicence malias it possible to have a Forun at

the

National Security Count level to

address it.

Mr. Kirhow. What ahore that has bean brought un in the

nast either in the nreas or accusations about a committee is

this aimori at?

Has there heen thuger that ive have

documented or

reported that indicate that this has wininted the Constitutional

rimits or anybody, Inclodint these forcioners for this

minose?

We must he aimina this at something other than just

Mind of nulling it out of thn air?

Mr. Aaron. I thin! il really comes more in the category

of muestionable practices and t wish i had the domestic

fellow here but it's rent!: a question of, for example. when

yu're in the nrocess of aring to recruit foreimn assets

ne even Americans to nertory foreign intelligence misstons

whare you may begin collecting infornation on Anortrans for the

ournoses of assossing arte they are heloful to vou in

the partinier cerany or whether the could be

indo of curveillanco:

wo note of a oatemard " think.

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don't think we're real! decorarile closino the hain door

to some enormous abuse.

MI. Kirhow. I had nover heard of one in that area.

Mr.. Maron.

I think be and large the FRo's quite clear.

In other words, when wa went through the Claps and some of

thase. other programs that are muestionable, there were some

cases in which some of the renarting that took place as a

result

of the fornian resources dis ision ant inte the chaos not.

Put the fairion resure dintaion nameded to seny clear of

neneral and resiated in laot the effort on the nart of the

CHros tear to go out and acterly recruit in this area on,

clandestine basis.

Thin is really sort of more in the category of a.

Insuring that that doesn't take place on B giving them help

that they can say no, rivne them a place to go if crossures

such as the Huston Plan tune prassures are brought to hear.

Senator Huddleston.

well, there are several places in

one renort findinas, several cages indicated in the restimony

•e've taken that the Attorney Coneral mait to review and

recommend.

And t'n wondering wethes or not rather than inet spottira

lt. at these various alacos chather va couldn't mato a goneral

recommendation.

Me me alreade ant the attorner enoral on thr

Committon and that he meredIe not all minctioen lt at tragt

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for this maragranh, they he resin and that he alrige the

President and the committe if in his oninion any of these

mactices violate the Costitutional rights of American citizens

ne an other laws.

Me. Kirbow. I woild feel much batter about this since

it hasr't been an apparont alnso but to see that go in the

general recommendation that all of the activities of the

intollinance community barriered by him or ha reamined in

whatover yay von thin it should he done for that rurnese.

But it muld coom that

it cute ther to a reneral preventive

mine mechanism instead of heim here kind of out in arainst the

ran. thinn as we say amarently has huen mind it properly

al? alone and not in vinlation of the lar.

We don't appear to he accusing them of it here. although

the lanquago may not he muila so specific.

Mr. Maron. I misht: iust cav that there is a further

recommendation that involies tie attorney veneral on page 40,

Mhlah is number 27 dealin

with tha same committee, a different

asnoct of it.

What this does in l elaborates titl the recommondation

wher 17. which establishon the counter intollience committee

and it deals with

the too wides of three activitios. on the

no hand is nine to riley paran for raiti: forcion

intellence collation" catectine richin the United States

and on the ather hand is tride da rogjat the counter intelli

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that are conduated incide te

United

states both from thr standnoint of their legality.

Now I think it's easirle to consolidale those recommenda-

Pions so that we don'e car it twice, and I also think it's

nossihle to take out an inclin lion that these

programs were

not necessarily conducted rorerly in the nast.

But T would hate

to sort of just have, and my rersonal

Feeling is that I would hat

to have a gener thin? of thing

that the detorner concret aunt to do this becouge be cuaht

to do this alreado.. And what me re truine to do is male some

recomendations that are nore specifically targeted on the,

slipat matter that ve bove reviered in rive him. in affect,

enocific charge.

Senator Huddleston.

well, we are diving lim the

anacific charme of reviewing it; which aparently he didn't

have before. Now before when sonethina came to his attention

he certainly had the respionalbility to move on it if in his

oninion it uns contrare to constitutional rinhts.

Mr.. Aaron.

So ! upe mou're diccusging the last sentence

still,. in that richt. not the review noint?

Mr. Kirhow. ile rattrully assunes. as the comon law

does: that all rovernnent afficials in an official.

nosition

are perforimo

their duties pronarl

e want to no hierond that. thourh

want him to knew the there reine

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Mr. firbow. And

Mind of a general recommedition, then

you talk about all of

tle intelligence functiong havind any possibility of affecting

the laws of the united stere:

I really would

like to soc that kind of requirement

placed on the Attorney ronaral as a general requirement instead

of trving to

just nick out little specifies unless lie have an

abuse connected mith it.

No: in the dometic rect force ther have specific

abuses and they make specific recommeridations of corrective

action. hut that doesn't arpear to be the case in eithor of

thoes here. either the true covert or cations

Mr. Paron. I micht mala

a suggestion along those lines

just in tarms of simpliftiny sone of thin.

It might ne possihle

te take the first part nt the review

section here, follow it

with the recommendation on the top of 27 saving the domestic

ecunter-intellicence activities of the Cil would be subject to

this review and then follow that with a third recommendation

that the

Attorney Ceneral would! be required to adviss the

President and the oversinht cormittee if he found any irreqular-

itles in either cne of there regarams.

Senator Mathias.

!thint that's more reasonable and

it does

what you want to din which ts to force the Attorney

general'e athention to it.

Mr. Parall.

All rinll..

TOP

mold ve with for a minant to

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muher ll horause it har headleted rortion that ve micht

considerably do away with.

That's page 40.

The bracketed portion ears that the NSC would anprove

all counter intellinence rativiting of the CiA in the United

States

and it spells out

akind of procedure there.

Now the net affact of this kind of procedure really is

In ostahlien that the oRt i: ithout question: I nean the

reactical.ffect. is that the for is without question the

munter-intellinence anency and vouve not to get the president

to androve anuthing that the CrA is mind to do in this

Fiola.

And that is really it inside he nited States. That's

the net effort of this paratrach.

Now my own personal view of this paragrash is that it's

crobably not necessary.

no have the NSC dammittee.

It is

sunnosed to resolve the question of where the fBi lets off

the ciA booins and it is on MSC committe that can report

en the Prealdent if thou have a disagreement.

I'm not sure t fool atronaly about it.

"r. dicennva. I would only add that I sooke to John

Ellife about this naragrant and he alno fools that it's

unnecessar: to do this.

we thinks

that this consolidation

frat no all. mall it's unneenssary second

c? a?!.

Mr. Miller.

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Mr. dicenova. Arone pou talking about the concolidation?

Mr. Maron. No, more talking about the paragranh that

just

precedes it. I'm acerv, this is the hrocketed portion..

T!ll read it out.

"The CIn should recoive ldr approval of all counter-

intollijence activities mithin the United States.

This approval

should be riven by the precident and bo surnorted br the

recommendation of the asc eter intolliqone connittee,

Attorner reneral and the Director of the rt. all sum

oroinets should be reported innually to the overalght committee

Mr. Maxwell. I nuld more that we just strike that

AS

1n00r959ar4.

sonator Huddleston.

That'g

a vote. Me'll be right

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Senator Huddleston. coll, it's 3•30.. let's sce if

ve can resolve anvthing.

Mr. Maron. Non the mout cacommendation, which is number

21

anes to the establishment nf a special comnittre re the

committes on Toreian Intellence, which nuld rariey haman

intallinence collection probias.

This is an area ware thare har been sone effort

institutinalle to tre to get a handle on it but it ir

ergentialle solit ahout so ridole in le coverment dn ceti

man me it.

inn haver Mat penartment that prete re least

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In volume the most materia! and socorling to ClA analysts

most of that informatio!.

larre proportion of that is

loved to their report an' vot obviously a greut deal of

clandestine collection

is carried out by the CIA itself and

the military services account for a significant amount. of

collection,

some of which is extremely important in countries

with militory

aovernments.

The issue

then herows whother there chouldn't he a

particula, nechanism to deal with it and the provosal here is

to creato a subcommitten of lie OFI for that porcose, or a

snecial committee of the Crl. ind the reason for that is to

nut in the chair the benartment of stite or the Secretary of

Stale's desionee and representatives of the Secretary of State

and it would

e a committoo ensentially of the clA. the Department

of state and the nepartmant of Defense trying to bring some

focus into those programs and maling some choices and so forth.

I miaht have Bill Rader speak to it.. I think the

recommendation originates with him.

Mr. Bader, This recommandation is bart of bro hasic

recommendations that deal with the cunction of human intelligeate

collection.

First is the mention of the aproval mechanism. As you

see when me net into the lattor mart of the pane, one of

there ver strong recommendatling that ve have a

His committed

or i= haina affered to the coit'se as a perinte reccumenda!?

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that human collection rice would. or to the operations

advisor group for approval. that is. for operational approval

As you know from mur testimony these kinds of projects

An not go to the 40 Committee tore orcamzations where they

deal with covert action project.

so on the one hand -e're honinn to deal with the question

of merational approval. In this particular subcommittee we

so to the muestion of overa!! management and dispation of

tarring, what should we he doind. that should the nited States

lie doing in the human colloction field? Where should we be

In = number of years? What should the nrincipal obiectives

of human collection he?

And in this war de here to brind the divercity that now

extats in the community from the CIA to the military corvices

and bring it

together under, the chairmanship of the Secretary

of State who would helo prouide this lind of overall direction

and management muidance.

It is not an important elaboration of the committee on

Foreion intelligence.

It should he there in anv

evant. because

it's a manarement problem.

This gives it focus, this gives

the secretary nE state the chairmanshto of a comitted and I

think pronarly so. that darle with this larger neoblem of

hither human intelligence mollection.

tir. Marrel!.

r'e maler hore whether it'e chaired

he a penrocentatire of the recretery at chate and the net and

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cecretary of Defense arn curated to attend or wather they're

all supposed to be designer.

I don't know what the protocol is but is it likely that

the secretary of Defense would attend if it were a designee

of the Secretary of Stato?

Mr. Miller. Sometime. gure.

Me. Bader. They cortainle did mn these other committees.

But what mould vou nonse?

Mr... direnova.

The lolare le

"little unclear.

Mr. Mader. Perhane it should say that the Secratary of

State is chairman and he permably then could designate whomever

he nleased.

Mr. Kirhou. As a matter of practicality. if the

courataro of State doesn't show un and the

secretary if

nofense is there. uho is main to chair the meetino?

Mr. Aaron. As a matter of practicality if the secretary

of state dogn't show un, the Secretary of Defenso won't be

there.

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Mr. Kirbow. And you liaress dew because ha'y never.

nina to so to this kind of mating shore he takes in the

dau to day cerations.

Aren't r011

reall Hilling here. don't von leave the

annuade en maque that voy foil to imote that whit von want ig

a ravior of the miletee and her the dee en daw

we meen one mode

anent in Amaterdam nod to more ir

Bruarole?

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Ma. saron. That is dot not we want to conver and so

are correct.

Mr. Kirbow. They mhould review the rolicies anl goals

and requiromenis. roall.

Mr. digenova. Mor about policy at the end of the first

rantence?

Mr. Aaron. Muman intelligence collection policy.

sanitor Huddleston. ind eliminate th part about size.

Mr. Pader. Povini sol rale recormendations

with regard

to nolicias.ind nrioritine. out then there's a misnrint here.

He don't need American M.G. clandestine.

Mr. Kirhow. Now dronal the ord, the tre words, human

entination refore the last contence, vou ret intr kind of a

reat deal of detail more what they're suroosed to consider.

morage jf unu said ther diould consider the nolicies of human

intellicence, human collection and the trade-nEfs between

covert and overt collection end the

sorts of things vou have

broucht to.p.committee. a consideration of this roblem which

they have nover taken hafare.

Mr: Bader. I thin o could add the vori molier here

and nolicies and ve will underline that.

•Recommend the catal lichrnt of a special committee of

Finlan hman intelligend collection

l mae seconendations with regard

• the clortled ar!

need wore alandertine himan collintic

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merations and choices tetcon mort and clandestine homan

collection.

Mr. kirbow. And "r. Thairman, without oing back and

halaboring one of the othor cocormendations, I think that the

staff should do that in each inecance chare we mar have given

a task to a committee to do a great deal more detail because:

even on this domestic countor intellicence activities my

carlier recommendation vas at by statute tre molicies governing

Honestic counter-intallicones should be considered.

You don't want then to consider the day to day operation

don't believe.

Mr. saron. But I do think tha ve shouldn't lose sight

of tha

fact that we are interasted particularly in the latter

case and. I think in this came that you're interested in the

rroaram.

I mean you just don't want to say it will be the policy

of the.U.s. to do some or it would be the colicy .. I mean

vou really want to have an onportunity in a management sense to

look at the overall program. in the nrodram achieviny what

it's supposed to achieve, in the scale of the progran

here

as opposed to there in

the riche halance to reflect mur

criorities?

In other woeds. I think that.

"r. Miller

Te late rubher tang, route caring.

Mr. Aaron.

tual will:

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aran on naner. It trips to not at the nioblen of what are the

nrograms and are

they doin their job?

Mr: difenova.

Whe in they make the recommendations to?

CFI?

Mr.. Maron. Yer, or the President.

Mr. Maxweil. One nark in connection with .

Mr. MiGenova.

rat's make that clear.

Tt just says

male recommendations.

Mr. Maxwell. In Bill's fix. to spectfo. I think it was

intended that

it's all human intelligence collection abroad

Mr. Aaron. Yes: that's right.

All rinht, pechang ve can do on to the next recommendatihn.

"Inu this is bracketed. I think it minht he bettes firot before

un take un the bracket lotis take

up that is not bracketed

and just indicate that this is in effeet hortatory, if you will.

It uraes the oversight conmittce to examine the question of

clandestine collection to ensure that it's really focused on.

thinge that need clandostine collection that are of high

natorito; not only the hichort. but certainly deserve that kind!

of risk and offort and areas in which clandestine collection

are the only means avatlable ro

to enchasize cometling of

the extraordinary nature of conionage.

Mo: hoyond that there e the recormendation that the

clandertine carrier

lila the military corvices and the

Foreion corrier, be miert to a anoover colling

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I think this woul. not correst that that railing be a

public figure but that th Canaress establish a manpower ceiling

Ert that, just as it has thor other cervices that serve in the

field of national security.

Now I know Charley has some tenarrations about that.

Mr. Kirbow. Yes.

meet to nut it in the proner context

and I didn't bring it un at that noint, nor dir Elliot,

if you look at the bottom ni

are 32, ve in car fludinos section

discuss a point on the fact that me don't know whother the

size of the clandestine carried in the richt elze.

We also indicate that mer the vant decado the size has

heon reduced sionificantly, rarticularly in the field.

Than te come over here and reconment that there be a

mennower celling for the Mandontine corvines only of the

cTA. Today there is a hurt

get coiling on the number of

neople in the CIA that j

rouerned by the amount of monsy that

they aet and the amount of

marier. that they put forvard to

unpott that kind complement.

Tablected to kind of the dinning dron percass at going

into a sonment of an agever and limiting tre mangover because

1e we had a cruseal hall, ve reila do that very carefully and

noonerly, I think. But l can't soo into the future and tro

•ars fron nor we may nerdite largest clandestin carice ve're

aver bad hocaues ol the pr

all that muld confrant the nation

and

I think that ainee

i le carafelly controlled ki the Congress

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trouch its budget levels and manover: lovels, let's let the

arency decide how many poinle it takes to run a serment of its

oun organization.

Mr. Inderfurth.

Agory snocial sarment. though.

Mr. Kirbow. Well, sorcinl only bernuse we have concerned

ourselves. with the abuse anents of it under the assasgination

tine thing. of more concern to us: should he the fact that the

analytical section out their probably needs strengthening

instead of verrving about rommlating the size of the clandestine

service.

Mr. Inderfurth. Well. that comes un later as well.

Me. Kirbow.. No you think that size in any wav contributed

to the nlot naainat castro ne sone of these other neonle?

Mr. Inderfurth. I think It has in covert action throughrut

ratin america.

Mr.. Bader: Mr. Chairman, I would support Mr. Kirbow on

this one.

My own view is unless you're goind to go to the full

extent of addressine the quection of establishing mannower

ceilings throughout the contral Intellioence Arenay, to single

out one directorate. at this noint doesn't really make much

sense to me: though I understand the princinle behind it.

Senator Huddleston.

Well. I do too, I thine wo can male

Flat tatoment liat vol could get too. big that thoro may

raint somewhere a hete howad which isa more dangerous

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situation.

But I don't wink ye have determined that any

enecific size has yet boon chown to be so detrimental and we

could say that there oucht to be a specific level.

I think the rest of that paragranh certainly ought to.

he continuously examined.

"Ir. dicenova. The recond part of that paragraph really

as 511m99

that that kind of reviey wouldgo on and

if necessary,

the conmittce could make a reconnendation at the approrciate

time.

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Mr. Aaron.

It nonnane that kind of a review.. The

nurnose of having a mannover reilina as it exists, as i say

In other agencies there one could argue

that vou would have the

some problem. the militar!

misht have an emergence next

weak which would ranuire on enormous expansion of military

actrices.

Now the point of it in to give really. simoly to give or

surgest that the oversicht committee put in its arsenal of

controls over the clandectine activitios that the CIA: come

handle on the clandestine services number because it makes a

difference.

I mean the. mula mut their money elsewhere.

senator Mathias.

lion thout saying establich and annually

adiust, or from time to tire artust?

Mr. Maron.

The mint in not just so set i hlahor limi

but rother to sai. to hain aus tool, aed aven ach the haencs

to toll me that that tille mee low, they mit tall be

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under their authorized th

MI. Inderfurth.

soother alternative is to say should

cunsider establishing a mannover ceiling.

MI. Kirbow. Could I make the raint that oversicht

f any agency necessarily entails looking at the number of

neople it has every year hacause vou have to determine how

much moner they've got to snort and they have to come tell you

that.

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If e're aning to laws an overeight committee, that is

one of the functions that it nerforme. We do it with our

military services. but to dont tell them that ve can't put

them al1 over in. that they can t out alt the Nary noodle in

10gtr019r6.

sanator Huddleston.

That's richt. but toon't think vou

ann exactle equate clandoctine cheration with othor tynes of

agency onerations.

I think there's a difference here in the notentlal

immact. It's a secret oneration.

Mr. Aaron. Should consider estahlishing?

senator Huddleston, I

think that. it ought to follow

the nararan?.

Leave the nararanh as it was and say. the

committee should also concisor te advisahility of establishina

mannover coiling.

Cerator Marias.

Tell reall then what sued

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ing or this comnitten .

mend to nother commitace that

maube they ought to do cabine but I muess it's all right.

Me. Aaron. I'm a rai no do that uite

a bit.

Mr.

Miller. We're junt laving out the agenda.

Mr. Kirbow. Which in rot hinding on them.

•r. Miller. In the rovernment Operations Comnittee

one of the provisions of the hill. as vou know, is an agenda,

and many of the itens thatre in that mond. are suborned in

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Me: Kirbow. Doesn't it on to the wake u of the indivialal

avisions? overall size of the intelliance community is the

way they reconmended it. and l think hat's a reasonable approath.

il. paron. Turnina to the question of the loency itselfi

mmbar 23. this again is not in the catagory of satutory

moposals but in the caterere of urgina the fuener to ensure

that the stills of intollicenco collection are the primary

ariteria for advancement ithin the clandestina services.

senator Mathias, larous management?

Me. raren. Versus dovert eperetions.

Me. Kirhow.

Mr. Chairman. on this one I can conceive

oF nothine that would de are harm

to either sido of this

question than to say to a an the wants to devote his life and

Take a carrer in the claudentine service that ver can't det

renoted ou being tood at cal con're cupcoged to le doing.

You at enamitod on bain aunt at thie other among of it. and

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think it' iust totally ot

releeping with what on ront. It

vou want a good clandestin conration. You want the best you

can find. and I think thit he should net the same amount of

credit for being good at tatover he's ansioned to as being in

this other intelligence husiness.

Me. Maron. The int liigence business, of course, is

their primary mission.

Mr. Kirbow. Not if lo's a clandestine operator. That's

his mrimary business and he doesn't have auy choice over whether,

or not he sets assinned than he goes in

out there as

a junior arocutive to the clandestine side of the day to day

oneration.

sanator

todd leston.

•hat does thie adlre.s?

Ме.. лаrоп..

This addresses. the prohlem of the clandestine

service which goes to the sevoral things. Prinarily it

collects intelligence.

But it is in the nature of, or at least

the nast history of the droney, which Bill can speak more

directly to than I. that the covert overations nonle yet the

better advancement. Te's in

nart built into the sisten in

that vou can measure the effect of the covert artion operation

canter than this

endloss affort to recruits good agent many

times which will fall through through on fault of the agent

hingelf.

ruthermor, count action pocratires atly come to

hichar

lowel

attention contes that somebedy choe a good agent:

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handlor hut iho is

renl'..rratint of!

in o pory recule and

remote environment.

So in an effort to tre to suggest that they make a

mal offort to compensate for what we have found in this area,

this particular thind

is

desimed to urac them to do their

heat to try to overcome

that

nroblem.

Now we wanter to

mit it in a vav that vas not rejorative

and that didl not

axclude th adrancement of rood covert operators.

Te yol wast to keen covert enerations? t atree with Charley,

vell have

to have aood oreg aud.

ynnl're not to

reward

thenn.

I don't thinl that thir nartienlar recommendation waich

to the saoncy and not to ctatute dues what nerhaps tharjey

Faara it woirld do. It

sinnl uroes that ther

riy" the proner

weirht to what for the clandestine servicos is their rcimary

mlasion.

Mr. Bader. the probton of it

is we're not after this

reallv and perhaps it's a laniunae problem. we're not trying

to sunrest here that the intrllironce collertors in the carear

ratters should be favored duer the operator. What we vere

after really was that we haie noticed ouer the vears and in

the recora that the infulllrepee onerator has tonded lo move

alond much fagter.

what he has dong. Mis cretoete are very wichly isible

while tntelllocne erflerins can he eonerhiny that tils over

cnare and l!'r hard tu'i.

rin tir trenches.

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Mr. Kirhow.

T'ml sarry.

"don't heliaye that that's

thie case.

What I'm really cavina is this. Over the vears

From ahout 1947 on througe the 'sns. clandestine merations

vore a vay nf ilfe in the ria.

wthether tris in favnr today

or not is rechably on tho side of no. it's not in favor at

the cIA hocaiise there are anly 165 verque some 500 et 500.

senator indalneton Treallu dan'! soe that au hetna

relavant.

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Taoe this it'e unt a meetlon re Whet er in iike

clantostine onetal tone ee dat. TH'g drang to me tee wuestion

is

mhietheg cr not bhoa laaictdunle tle erte Mre Mattina 111du.

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risfprontial treatment .r

mluanroment within the anorer.

Is that what we're

Friint to get to here?

Mr. Kirbow. They rar it's within the clandestine services,

that the covert oberator cota more advancement within the

elandestine services side

re the house than the other neople,

and I don't think our recerd supports that.

It may he that voll hain found more of the directors

heino From the covert sido .f

the houne bult 'hat ts unt what the

attack: 15

.here.

Sonater Huddleston. Can't ve rar that rithin the

clandestina services our

intutry indicatns that those in the

covett saction

have advanoed in sreat r nunbers more raoiday?

Мт. Падет.

• Yes.

It wnlpk the record ie cluar on that

within the clandestine sarriron.

sauator Huddleston. And the Conmitteo believer that

the arengy suaht to ensure that all emnloyees, thatever side,

he riven the onnortunity

hagedl on their actual skills.

Mr. Maron. That's the thrust of what we're trying to

exnress hera.

Mr. Kirhow. Mr. Chairman. I would like to resarve for

sonator Toier en this mue hecauee i don't think the ragoed of

the committon cunnorts thn.

Mr. direnora. Ioy ahout if ve maid this tho central

Intellinaure shoul enrure that tha shilleof inollinence

collaction Gre cirop der! considration ee acrttarion for

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avancement within the

malentine serrio

Ms. Culbreth.: Then vol ant back in to what we struck

out from the original, which was as oposed to covert action

onerations.

We deleted that from the earlier thing to try

In avoid -

Mr. digenova. I'm trying. to just paraphrase what the

senator just said, what they caid was the thrust, which was

that. intollicence. collectin/ capabilitias ar rut on an equal

Fontina with opprations.

Mr. Maron. What

think is a better way to put the

noint, and it's along that gone line, micht be to simoly sầy,

to urne that the doencr

annare that the shalls of intelligence

collection are riven imortanon in advancement: vi hin the

clandostina services of

that mission for the clandestine

services. if vou will.

In other words, the great bulk of the people in the

clandostine services, as charloy pointed cut, are in fact

intelligence collectors.

when are case rfficers for trying

to acquire information. and I think that Mat we're trying to

arrive at here is that it chould be rioon an importance. that

thie shill should be siven in importanes and siontficonce 1r

proportion to the sioniriones that the money accords en that

marticular task.

Galaternet liar.

al the toot Mat wract cone stare the hacaus:

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De thair clandestine clili: cre ald the drailable oromotions

most of them, that they a ahead and I thin that that is a

ornhlem. You see it in tus arned services all the time.

rememher commander Buckler who. because he was a bir PT

boat man, and he just hapnaned to be called on to take MacArthur

off coriinenne, ended un ay aniral, and? I won't comment further.

Mar't think there io cuoh a humon resnorico to courage

and caring mod musual chill that itle moing "o be very hard

to deflor, "hat from harine ile natural rutlet in recoonition..

Mr. "aron.

he tear. a lot of the problem is in the

mature if things and the vocomendation roos toon effort to

For 991a"

I think

mr rinhtle may.

Covert action dramn artention to the pooralor. "landestine

callection, no de not ire attention to mucoal?.

Mr. Kirho There

lee more haste niphlem to this at the

Trendy.

Jid mend sone turnalderable tine in this business.

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Mont of the gory fine. vendle that thor liar. or that they

had in

the carly rears van' to be in that husiness hrrause

thate tha betro a are warlord they ill end meritil a

neart of the maid reond

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arrisinn.

senator luddleston.

"el!, there are too many alements

"re involved in who our's ta to promoted.. There are too many

numan elements and somahady la to male a

decision.

T just Ann't know hot me can adviao them on that.

think I would strike that.

Tanuld favor taking it out.

Mr. paron. Okav. Numbor 34 roas to the question. of

the relatiunshin betwoon th. demostic contac diriies and

the directorate of peration oo what is cherries linwn as

the clandestine servie.

In 1972. I balione it was. when Mr. Schlosinger went

to the can. this dircetorete those primar recronsibility is

for collecting mvert intelligence but which has a support

funution for the clandestine collection or the clandestine

recruitment of arents within the United States vas then moved

Into the directorate of operations.

The committed's mim hearinas and testimony on the

subject indicated that a reasonablo. laroe mortion of their

artivity.and their contacte are used for the initial stages

of trying to spot, ascere. and get poonle close to foreign

intallitence agent recruitmont targets.

Now there are. mue convern about that is that unlike

the foreig resourone di

in whose miacion is

early clandestir

Main entrenchee their bennle an an

anap bogie, it saur,

mat doing any

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anyina.

T.

All patron. T belong to the crA.

would like you to tel!

"e shout your travels or advice us

on some subject or what inue ou on an open basis, and that

this relationship is conletely chove hoard in every wav.

And you don't have to veer that this relationship is

aning to he used for any rtert nurpose.

However. it turns nut that some of those relationships

1T2

or do or aro hrought

he montre into cunprt for clandestine

nativitie: in which informacion le cathered on moorle ho might

helnful in all the ray?

and t think we had a rectly mood

attendance at that session when this was discussed.

So the muestion coves down to this. this blurringsof

the line hatricon on aroarination as to unether it; mission really

is overt or not in every

regreat. should this be i concern to

the committee? And if it

is nt concern en the Committee, shoul

ris take

some

steps to tru to rainforce its overt character

cenarate it out from. the clandestine sorvices where it is

no: Incated and where at lonet a few of the neonle in the DCD

have expressed some concorn that they will not recome ropulated

with real clandestine ongrators and that they will really sort

of herome another are of that ciganization.

Ma kill Bader Mould like to tall to this noint.

I. t

formerly can part of the fireatorate of intelliter

rich is

the more mort an ae the rene to lorin with ond contreted that

infernatinn

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In other governmene this came cunation in deno. for

example, in Britain it's ine l' the board ef trade because a

lut of the information i: technical, economic, or scientific

in nature, which is alsn true for the Don. as a matter of

Fact.

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And so the questior that is presented to the Committee

is do we want to leave the nch where it is in the Director of

Clandestine Operationa? Do ye want to have the clandestine

sorvice, If you will. have a suri overt orm within the United

Statos widoly spread out throughout the united States?

Would

we want to confine the clandestine activities to the clandêstine

corvice and the overt acttvities to emo mert cranization,

lhat hac! in the directorate of intelligence in the Agency

movert

out to the state hepartment or some ctor organization

whlch does operate openly an a matter of courro?

Mr. Inderfurth.

What would that mean in torms of

numbers? How large is the Don?

Me. Maron. I bellove it ia

about 150 or 290.

Mr.

Bader. Thare are 38 offices.

Mr. Aaron. And they are about two or three man offices.

A 10t of the personnel in the beD are in

fact succunded. from

the military services ne aron.

you know there are different

areas of the country that have different kinds. tou knoi,

marionlture.

ifehere interested

maricultue! insollidenes

"heir these soonie tong put of

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agriculture. I mean it's funny kind of mixture of noople.

The CIA sort of dae this in part as a service of

cummon concern to the in'elli ence community and in part at

last heretofore it does the piert collection function as a

service to its own analystr.

This was particularly in the early days when we had

less access

to information in the denied areas of the world.

It was a very rich soures o' information for us. It still is

mutte a good and important and coonomical source. and it's

mood program. The

mestion is how nuch it should f involved

in clandestine support and if. you want to find a way to

ercourage

it, to. if vou will. enchasize its overt mission

over its covert mission or de vou want to put it back into

some overt side of the donner or the rovernment?

Mr. Maxwell. I have come very mixed feelings about this

recommendation and the problom might be described better

looking at the flow of intormation from the end point.

The irD now is involved in the recruitment of agents

for foreian intelligence gathering within the United crates.

A number of times they need, and I think they have indicated

to the committee that they mood some heln in determining whether

they should go to an indiritual and say, can you introluce

to thie notential acant of

influence in a country: rin

an Introdune tog

1 the etuant withone that bloot we in

their cacas?

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The muestion then! hoe eon thee tie nrovided with the

information that they mar in allow them to make a recruitment

that the committee mav find ir valuahle.

If it is from the sch. it has all the problems that

pavid articulated. and I appreciate those problems.

The

question the committee has to face is where they are going to

net that information, whether tt should he for the bed. whether

It's located in Dod from the now, whether it's located in the

not or from the Don. or treated in the state Denartment or

under Stato Denartment control.

My nun sense of that is that the decision that was made.

he Director schlesinger in morian it from the pot to the Do

diet raise the notential ni compromising the mert charroter,

hut it also made the liaison which me find important more

arficient and easier to manoe and potentially easier to

control if both elements are under the same set of duidelines

and regulations which would rovern the don as a whole as to

who nav be apporpached. the may le used pnerationalls..

If it's put in another directorate or outside. ! think

there's a difficultr in that kind of control and l think it's

also, lE phriously ratsos the mention of thather the rad

was moing to got the information that it noeded for a valuable

Function of recruiting foretoure chile ther're in the united

Stator:

I,thin the comitte don one nunher or tour but I

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think that the and neart toe to be looked at in the recruitment

of spies, and secondly i have in look at what kinds of

a surances could be made in "ny lirancil of

the novernment if

overt collection is being con

as to wether that information

sould be used bu another branch of the roverment.

If DED were entirely rvert and a promise were lade to.

Mr. Bader that this would never be used for an operational

mucnose or vou would never le anted as a contenting adult to

aid in an onerational puccose tuen the end reeduction might well

he that the fRo is doing to be sending menule out corartly

within the united Statas in covertly cbrain information tog

determine if they are going to male & coinct approach to ai

for ian soy, and I think that I have real hesitation about.

rater than the information bond available from consenting

individuals on an. open baris.

Mr. Aaron.

If I contd add to that. I agree, I think

the duestion is if voure going to allon the conduct of

recruitments to take place and von're soing to allow information

to be collected on these recole, somchorty has to do it and

sa vou're not going to mid and of tose cuestions by this.

The issip noes in cart to whether the penele vis will

initiallo herin develoin that information will ne peonle.

with gueri incantive to teen it within certain tunds or whether

more will be paratic mont with de iroog aurooood to that.

THat What to mook to have called ten In which

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nunhers of neonle who attainer. if our other recommendations

i, here are accepted and cien soun of the internal régulations

of the cra

are written into lou, poople muld be kind of off

bounds

for onerational mse.

Now the DCD: however, because it

is overt, is allowed

In deal with these pennle and the mention. is. vell. the

incontives to be scruulris in twir activities, leering them

auert and

not trving te une monte

sort of for operational

runnort and so forth, the

rucetion is wuld those ir entives

he hotter outside the poo or incide the nee or vould it make

differener.

The second point in. mud this is a somether different

not the non is havingan increasing noblen. tit. rankly.

anil we have had testimone from dr. Heldon and others. he's

having a broblem because it to associated with the cir.

Now neople are relacrant lo cooperate witt their because

of concern about baing agaociate with thie cid. The fart that

they actually do enoare in curtational smort doesn' help

that very much.

And so the quentin le divou really went tir mllest

antoitation of the foreion itilligenes. open foreimn

intolliame notential of the querican cootle d

-ain. illino

to cooptateinner chanet! that to done be come cranization

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priated with it?.

That is somewhat curate but relevant.

Mr. Kirhow? Mr. thairman, apparently they're not talking

shout doing it with and fover neople or any different neople,

mut you're talking about calling it something else.

In discussing thie with Mr.. Nelson, under whom it comes

now. and with Mr. Proctor, under whom it previously came..

thou do not distincuich ane of the problems, that they are

Haginer

any prohlens in maintaining contact with ever 100,000

American citizons who are hind of returning traveller, and

that they are vetting the tine of information that these

Inval citizons are villina maime to than.

There norle aarertire thair addrees and robably nut

their telenhono

number in the public telenhones ii ench of thess

38 offices.

and all.

You hare to dn is look it In and sav that's

a CIA function there.

It is probably as mort se anything they do except

testife on the Hill, which has socome very overt in the past

vear or two. But just en tall: about moving it bark into

mlace

where they just mair? it mult of on the lack of some kind

of record that is not intling reoperty pet or more roperly

thore. I don't think weir in is insition to decide that. To:

decide that well want to rare it pilt of tie ClA Fud into the

harat tent of Stata.

Taint te Poet is totally mid on

,that.

auhiort

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Tiuge hate to so ve tocoamend! taling diat

clace. and

putting it sor: plac olse without a record.

Senator Hart. Can't we reconnend that ve put it back

in intellirence and the overnicht conmittee consider that

after it's created and só on.

Senator

Huddleston.

illy vas it taken cut of intelligence?

MT. Bader. It wes

a nunstion of consolidation of

collection

in one directorate.

son ape, while the dementie contract service was under

the onl, it was a collection service. It was in an calytical

branch and Schlesinger, an I undorstand it, felt that it was

the tidy thing to do to ruk all collectors under the came t

Senator Huddleston. Overt and covert?

Mr. Bader. Yes. And I think the incues "re love beer

very well articulated.

I had very little to add to them.

"think it is an

Isone, I have a personal concern that ve lave not taion the

responsible officials at any lenath on the record on this

question of the relative advantanes or disadvantates.

My own porsonal vion with some emperience is that it

seems to me it would male a great deal of cense for tis

function to be under the pot. to emphasize and underline its

and that the indiciduals who are in this porticular

service or affior then would flou naturally fron the calytical

cide and it could be very different kinds of crocle? they tered

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ho before 1971, 1972

Senator Huddlesto.

Te there ans chance that anybody

would be denied the product of this investigation if

we changed

it?

5

10

MI. Bader. One of the things we ahould hear in mind,

Mr. Chrirman. is that if you ao down the road and talk about

these various

reforms or channes in the intellinence structure,

that moving the DCT functio, and enharicing his novers and then

nerhans eventually senatating the Director of ClA from the

nat. that at this noint it would seem losteal for an overt

collection side of an intelliaonce anones to he with the

PCT :

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Rut that is down the rand as sell and nerhans that ve

want to do with something like this de von don't understand

that noint:?

Mr: Maxwell: No. I don't.

Me. Kirbow. What her really saying is that if you move

a11 of this overt side out at the DOI. you leave the anvert

side out thore without an of the suonort function. which this

aroup furnishes to them.

Mr. Pader. Down the road when vou have a PeT ..

Mr. Maguell. If vot assume that the net is rotro to

take the mittre Dil ...

carpent trifleal.

?!!

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Ma. Hirhow. There mounta out there are not arnts.

These are emplovees:

aid topt of ther, by the way, are

former

ei plovees. They are retired ClA officers.

Senator Huddleston: Ther are not mixing the assignments?

Mr.. Kishow. No. They, for example. I don't mind putting

this

on the record.

We had a large

international organization in the company

Twas with bofore 1 returnal to the senate. Before ve departed

no could get a briefing on the place there de vere going to

k1110

nE safenuard adainst making defense mistakes, art when we

came back, they came and had lunch with you and asked you to

rind of reveal or when you sore dealing with the director ;

of chatever it was in singanore, what was the sitation? What

ang the atmosnhere? What's moing out there hecause inu were

in a husiness atmosthere and runbad elbors and they came and

met with vou and did this.

Or occasionally you would stop

hi the san Francisco offire and vou'd do this.

That's the businees thego people are in. cincinally.

Ten't that correct?

canator Huddleston.

ae. do vou have any thoudlits on

this?

Senator Mathias.

i inn' think anvone has discussed

oction nurher 2 while

Tur brey sitting here,

ar? I harin't

henn

Sittine here continued Put is Mora ant malle to

culin!

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Tunt to be the Mo!!!

duncate, mue of the milnes that.

nocurs to me is to bring the state benartment in touch with

realitv.

Mr. Kirbow. Nell "o!'l! never not me to tell a member

of the Denartment of State personal husiners that I was conductin

for mu company in Singapore because I don't think that it

anuld ha

--

T'll nut it personalie. I don't thin' that i woudd

have trusged them with the gerrots of what my camoant's operatin:

care

versus an intellinomo organization, Hot an onen

armanization like the Denactment of state. -

Mr.. Aaron. The

informatton collected by the D0D is-

fully available to every ancier of the governent.

It's not

cnnsidered classifiedne. reoret or anothing alse.

Mr. Michaw.

Ther sal reua lot of questiong.

Senator Hart. The minciral. arament, inc, is that there

record on this and for us just to haphazardly make this

mammendation without hur arora

The connromise I mimicted vas a recommended oution l

and that the new committee tool at cotion a shen it is in

anistance

and has made a poonri.

Senator Huddleston

T'n inclined to se with rution 1.

have a muestion. it save the committee recome aar the berranens

warrint committe

Here tre

this

rotee te nor!?

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i. Aaron. I juer thine tt in deaftion the charter --

actually vou can just ear cor ecommend by statute or ou could

sy that the Committee recommends that it he removed or moved

hack. and vou can leave it te the pci to do it.

Senator Huddleston. dust recomnond that it he done.

Mr. Kirbow. Mar I rornectfully renerve on that?

Mr. Maron. All richt. Now 25. we're going to net some

testimony lonecrod morniren 29 and 26 as to wat ther

sctually do and ve will have that on the record.

and al will be uted un. as we have taller about it

earlier.

and 28, then, was the order of buriness, and that is

the reorosal that in foot we cutt to conalder a nedel Inther

Iit: the mirish. which le toat counter intellinee sy the

aTa and hr I'm corry the author of thin is not he hy

the counter intelligence, to the ClA, and the R!: l consoli

dated into one organization along the times of t 5 or 6.

cau never keep them meraight.

Hr. Inderfurth. fire.

this would

senator Huddlestor.: There conld tiat anoney he in the

structure?

tr. diGenora. "Nte de the noint tvas retting at before

that the domestic task force an? John Elliff has sour problems

with these recomendatione that tin tuat moclickting this

now he goeont teeton adenility of this le doesn

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05.

tiller. Tha

recommendations that this he donn by others. It's just an

lipa to be considered.

Me. Kirhow:

He's read it

I reserve on this.

Mr. diGenova. T'r not cure that's

Mr. Inderfurth.

well: the military intelligence services

should he arded to this rut. in and military intelligence.

Mr.. Aaron. If out: aim to corrol date that function.

it quaht le be consolidated !! te way

arcurl.

Mr. Miller, They're aliantly different activities on

the nart of the military because they're involved in hase

protection.

Isn't that corrent?

Mr. Snider. Well, tial couter esrianage ceration

involves their nun persennel orld-wire.

Mr. Miller. But in conmention with basos, that's their

connection.

Me. Snider. Not necoscarily haseo. but information,

militaro information. no lour do voi are concolitating that

funation. I don't see the un shouldn't include the military

rarvions. It's just a amal! point.

senator Mart. Me. "niman, I certainly farer the

concent thirt if therere any que area there we go: erer a little

rome camonte tes toes the counter intal linener areas.

And! T

an we met hang arband te farther contination of

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me hidina places for temunitility or

Bit

think creation of a semain mit here and consolidation

wuld enhance accountahility rather than male it more difficult.

Ple have

found out in niu 100l at the konnedy assassinatinh

and I think in a nunher of other instancos, cotelore and so

on. thore was duplication and overlan and abuse and poor

rerformanon and misperformance and about everything you can

think of mind on here both n the Fill and the ClA and mayhe .

even the military.

50 I think we have in look at comething and not just

mandate on counter-intolligenee. I think this is a sound

recommendation to

make :

Mr. Miller. It doesn't have to be into a ren agency.

It may be a relationshin that is lose than an doeney.

Mr. Aaron:

Is it the concept here that this orranization.

would conduct all the counter-intelligence activities abroad?

moan in other words, the muntor-intellicence funetions that

every station has to, in alfont, conduct, for example that

estahlishos; perhaps nute an ament in

#local socurity service

to mare sure that loen commitr service is

• cooperating with

us and not connorating with the soviets.

That is the counter intolligence action. Is that somethin

this organization would de as tolle or could thre ba

departmental come intel lice perit ad?

M. Pinhow.

nore telling dhout dontalid in mair

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pranortions, major agned': at the FRI broguse thor 115e their

anents for dual purposes. if he isn't out here law enforcing

on a Friday afternoon, then ln's doing whatover else he's

unlified to do in this fiel

Mr. Miller. That's mart of the ceason nerhans that

some of the abuses have arcurred. The grey area becomes very

murki indeed because of the dual nature of the agent's activities,

hereas the nursuit of fornian anemies, and other than having

the hand-offs of the sirmating meat we're had in the vast.

that consolidation micht remore that probion and it niht upon

ovamination lead to clarifiration of role and romove the

kinds of grov areas that eriated in the onst. Ent it's only

= cuagestion to look into more thorouble. It'e nothing more

than that and I think it has mertt to at least look into

it thoroughly.

Mr. diGenova.

That'e a specific recommendation that the

no eversiant committee onsider that question.

Mr. Kirbor. I was just reminded hu my colleannes that

that recommendation is rather inocuris. They can de anything

or not do anthina.

Ian think here min. no ve sungested earlier ve should

remove the words during to bout rear.

hecause if thay do

aver thine that de baus reenpended, they ven't here time to

It don't re so: that

the mercialt roomitt

-wild oniaiden this?. I think that

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vou're new directing am i committer to

do many thirts within

short perid of time an thay may have more important

r. conmendations that they consider too.

Mr. Aaron. Now .

Scrator Huddleston. could like for our recomendations

to be more specific, but. I toroanize thatithere are times when

se can't.

The natural questior le soing to be to us as merbers

what about recommending this ibury? are you for it?

Do you

recoumend it's a ncod thing or a had thing? and our chly

response can he. well, we don't know. He just think we ought

to

look at it.

Ne. Aaron. Well. l think in some cases vete ipall

saling about some ideas that

deserve a measure of l citimacy

to he seriousir considered. I mean, for examole, ve vere

talking earlier about the let being separated frem the Agency.

I think the vay the Comtites came out it cas essentially to

rive legitimacy to the idea and its practicality oi windom

ope might well question and look at fnither with the mersight

committre.

I think that sore of falle in that came career.

Senator Huddleston: Wond it helo any to say that

harause of the nature of thir kind of activity or too fact that

to

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Mr. Kirbow. soner Me indicionals. ur don't have any

reat big record that there wale rogur amonts

out there in the

Ful doing this. There wore come policies down at the headquarter

Now if you have the soon kind of rogue policy in a new

agency, you'll have the sone end result.

So it doesn't accor-lich anthing for us to do this and

noint at the individuals hagnure it was a princinal.

Senator Huddleston. " didn't specify individuals. I

junt said, it has hannoned an it's the ares where it is

surreptible.

Mr. Kirhow. Certainto the potential for abuse is great

in this area and it should to studied carafully and orchably

urrently br the cubcomnitter.

I mean the may oversight

comnittee.

Senator Hart.

Te annie potential it vas actual. I'd

like to see the committee recommend strongly that ther go in

this direction on the hasts of our 13 months of lookinu at the

ramn thing.

I ann't know how long you have to study some problem

hefore you do something about it.

Senator Huddleston. Mall. I'm content to leave it as

it is, taking out during the ment year.

Ms. rulbroth Did ve add militar corvirio?

.. Miller.

That's a mand point

Me, withon.

All enter libelligenor

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mul the aroncias indiri..

Trave mut the eat and the CIA.

Me. Miller. I thin: nontna them is a good idea.

Senator Huddleston. " muess this nets into the domestic

rosk force also.

Mr. Aaron. Yes. The cormitter will vant to look at that

Now if we go on en mur next set of recommendations for

covert action. we can he halfun through the report.

That

would he moving to band is. there me will ta's un a nunber of

recommendations related to repert action aud paramilitary

activitios. which relate in what the stated purrose in law.

of these actiuttias ought in la, that rootriettons minht bè

alaced unn them. what rerter and accuntahtlits peocedures

miaht annly to them and what kind of contials fron the Contress

standonint minht he placed on than from M standooit of

either the hudret or some other aspects. recticularly the.

naranilitary activities.

If we start with the firat one on nage 48 --

senator Mathias.

Men Chairman, on't von think we ought

to

skim linhtly. Much as up are all destinus to ant tr that

halfway mark. I think we had better look at the text very light!

beninning no nare 42.

It wouldn't take very lone to do that.

(Palise)

Senator Mathias.

refrigeran?

that find of coyonorst are dinine en shire?

"' Б

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Indonesian reference?

MI. Bader. Yes. " have a major study to suponct that.

Tu fact., one of our bindert shries.

Mr. dicenova. That misor the iscuo, if I micht say.

of a muestion that I just want to kney an a matter of

information.

Have we resolved the question of whether or not. the

Aanner aaroos to the rologe: of a second court action paper

when there was an arreement sonarently reached tefore that thera

would he only one covert action raper and that was or Chile?

What's the statue of mantiations now to releace thie

Indonesia naner? the one mu're calling about.

Wasn't there another detailed nonor on a covert action

"ener that we were considerim?

Mr. Aaron. There wag

paramilitary paner on laos

which the rrency would like us to release and they are now

reviewina with the vier tourd marmitting us to do so.

Sonator Mathias, What donut the Indonesian?

Mr. Miller. That'e cmcified

Mr. Etrbor.

Aar the que on Greece?

Mr. Miller. Thatle Hassified, ton.

Me. Kirhow. There is alassitied record that ill

minort thts comment. rivtr.i

1l net he a nhlin mercel but

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sentor Hurdlest,

Helle ree talen

some kind of a footnote

Mr. Pader. Senatt. rn the result of the Indonesian

meration. the 157 operation is widele known but it was

Failure.

He want to surer the sumatra robels and they failed

and so did ie.

This was when

Page aas shot down.

Senator Huddlestor: Pool on nage id, this term sheep

clin

is that sufficient?

Mr, aaron. He bod a low discuecion of that. aa

a matter

r.F

Fact. ta'll be quide? le thia committee

sonator Huddleston, mrilized emirmont. what does

that moan?

Me, saron.

That's cuimont whose pricin ahoot be

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traced.

19

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22

Gerator Mathias. Mover is the editor. I hone that

anme of those howevers that are used to begin sentences with

will be put follovina

the first verb instead of at the beginning

of the sontance.

At the too of ram. 1? 1 think vou could wake that a

little stronger, effecti, congressional oversinht. tor. if

they have the guts to

"moan if her don't use it,

it isn't worth anuthim.

Me direne.

alla mat morate it.

• that.

wanton Hathin

25

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MI. Maron. If three is the will In exercise it.

senator Mathias.

Beanuse voul know. You head into the

recutive Branch and threes an motional anneal with the flat

waving and the star shandled banner bring clayed on the Capitol

stops and all that kind of thing.

It takes some courare,

and

don't think me ought to downplay the fant that, juet the

mane fact that you hold the mater of the mirie. that

il: makes

if an easy never to orerie.

serator.Hoddlecton, all right. w're ready for

marnamendation number l on bage 19.

Me. paron. I'm mind to aek Mill Mader Ie sneat to? three

recommendetions. Me has done the mater care in this. I'11

junt simnla make one point with ronard to the firet are, and

that is

that in rising the done a charter and tritim down

some of the things that it in

to do, including the ronduct

capart operations, the concent would be to use the title I

darine of tryine to alen got farah some of the ruenosa= of

those miesions that the ironge would he diven and in mat

context the general intuctions os .

The first reconmenation would arise to be coord mented

hy

the sracifies that folded.

Me. Bador. Ytruet the larmero le clear her

It ir

committee that the wer

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ant and not a routine tria.

This

alen introded to

underline the committee monition that covert action arain in

the excentional nature should he used only when other means

will not do.

And then it rons no In

tall about that there should be

vrocedures for seeing that thore is both careful and thoughtful

ind thornunh consideration of thr general policies governing

novert action and that thee..

reprodures inal to participation

of polio malers at the lilont level and he naked br

accountahility.

What we're intering in in here is tin undorline these

arinne mints. the excontimal natura fill acorntabilito,

through customatir rariar..

Me. Inder furth.

"he firot is locinlation authorizing

the conduat of covert actiona unles elear. That soomo to be

sort of present legislation.

There

is

non?.

Mr. Aaron. It shoula

pav, recommendation l, that the

leriglation.authoriziro the conduct of covort actions make

clear that its nurpose te to respond.

Mr. Maxwell. The probion is there isn't folloung

from

the charter soction in tho firat set of rocommendations the

recommendation other than the vere early one abont nsc that

a charter for the pid authoring the fallowing

Functione should

he drann

and that because Here ta not

that teamuranation

in this sortion I thin let's downt to aporensatel

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Taderfurth.

"are that. add a

line tirt that charter

should state that and then m into this.

Mr. Kirhow. Are von recormending a revision of the

1017 Act to change the charier of the CIA or to make it clearer

or more specific. or do you wnt to simply indicate here that

the cormittee recommends that by statute. covert operations

or covert action he authoriza?

Mr: Inderfurth.

Thin it should all be in one niece

in the omuihus legislation.

I think that in fact in the beginning

and also in the section if sinnly savs that the CIA is

anthorized to conduct: if von will. contruage and that it also

nuaht to authorire. It also surgests that they're authorized

conduct a certain amount of counter intelligence.

MI. Pader. Me can an now to page 19 where we have

attempted here to lay out for the subcommittee's consideration.

Mt. Maxwell. Just one comment on 19. The first clause

after the cemicolon, there mar he a more artful way of saving

that lenislation should make sure that procedures ho developed

within the Executive Branch.

Is that degioned to do that be locislation or is that

recommendation? We made come recommendations by statute to

set in

a machaniem. and there mar be a more artin war of

saying that.

Mr. ladler.

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develoned within the tratiee Beanch.

Mr. Miller. You can do this in inrious ways bi requiremeht

ci reporting to the Condress.

• MI. Bader. On name 19, ton of tle vage,

we come to the

hard problems here, and thin section is addressed to the question

of aperific prohibitions on vrieties of covert action. It

notes that the committee has after its investigation of alleged

ascassination attenpts.

has recommended a st-tute to jorbid

such activities.

What we nut before the coumittes

for consieration is

a state list of other poseille recommendations. You call sep

the first bracketed one here there i are disnute as to

wnether that should be an included is all nollficil assassinations

That is to move.

from foreian leaders to all political

ascassinations, and we can come back to that.

The others you

can see are clear, and we would welcome comment.

Senator Mathias. What ahout religious assassiations?

Mr. Bader. That reame to be part of the problem, senator,

with using

all political anonscinations. it baconse a bit

hard at that stage to he limited.

Mr. Davis: the executire order bas all political.

narassinations.

They are aboar! of us.

Sarator Huddleston.

To the hill that no have ripared

and introduced mut dord !! 121?

Mr. ander. It done more that the Grecutire arilar does

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15 a ston further

Senator Huddlesten.

11o: we introduoed an anti-assassina-

tion bill. didn't we?

Mr. Bader. Yes.

That rocke

to forein

leaders.

Mr. Maxwell.

The hill strolf. I think, would have covered

foreigr individuals as well

as. because

leadership was so

broadly defined.

Part of the problen in

the recommenda inn that came out

al the staff lovel vas that anythina that ve sa: about non

Fornian loaders or domestir assassinations or the li! implied

that the committee had truestinated allerations about thatyand

might imply that

some credence shnuld he given to chartes that

the Money had been inuniver in attennts to assactinate people

in the United states, and that ug the noblem or tring

to word some prohihition that went berond the hill that has

already been introduced he the chnators.

Mr. Kirhow. Or of come lesser nilitary-type individual

in a foreion country.

ton low, assassinating a sergeant is

prater bad as far as he is concorned hut te would not necessarily

he nolitical.

senator Huddleston.

What about reace time? should that

he in there?

Mr. Kirhow. !

Mise mur bill dietinuiet d hotten peace

tire ara man time to rio!

meatien whator " not raving inne that nefore, that:

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malitical assassinatione.mort to he digruied farther as a

nrohibition at all.

Mr.. Maxwell. Perhans if the Sonatner think it is

regirable to

say something. tha rtaff.conld art language which

wild not imbly in ant oar that the Comnittee has found credible

evidenre that

the CIA was engaged in activities bevond this.

but which would refleat their desire not to: their ansire to

make clear that the can cout not do that.

Mr. Kirbow. It's

moral

findino that it isn't

mcessarily hased on tendrim in the nant.

Senator Mathlas. T'e renetitive but that's all right

For emphasis:

Mr. "irhow. le could rock on the lantunge and thou it

to you again.

Senator Mathias,

What about the recond one?

Mr. Aaron. I'm not mutta clear on this first me.

We

will draft some languate that makes clear that we did not

Fir any evidence of anthina other than that velre found?

Mr. Kirhow. That ye alon't find and avidence mat would

indicate that they

had arcared tn theee other tree of

herassination activiticg tyr that de ould mrolthit antvay:

ather than nolitical traders.

In that. though, us cidered

that maier or enlandt aunt in one of to die barrh ait ratien

comeritten thin.

Tented that. te can male thir olear

717-7

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eneern that it not wit

•hat riee

Harl taund aor: evirlence

that we had just not cemaled.

Mr. Bader. Perhane it would bo helnrul. senator, but

at the samr time the Mindnictration has cone forrard with

lanquace of all political ascassinations.

which coems to me

•ould indicate that it's net a uestion of a finding.

Sonntor lluddleston.

jo ourht to recommend passage of

Ma nill that we lave cuoniteed if nothing isn;

1.1t

kithow. And conttrmd to pumnart tha lecislation.

T

think von could

Tuee an0 rumhl on to bhia.. te recomended it

thon and the committoe contlanes. to gunonet enactrent nf such

janiclatinn.

itr.

aoron. Nimher?oring the comitree las clready

mconnented following its invaticaston of alleacd asanssination

atcomots, a craturo to forbid surb activitios. the Comrittee

contiques to endorse that.

Mr. Maxwell.

It could cay the committee also endorses

ar recommends that bu statute the neesent Raecutire Dedler in

uy pozocut cu uuftemstase iiuflL duE DuTtudOd 07 patbOK

neace tin?

Senator Muddleston. Mat ahout comocraticallr clected

roueenments?

19

20

21

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94

?.5

Sraator Marhiag. Mee danlE de dlo Bothe le den tre

pue ttleue Gll do wabdee del daganäte digdflaondd dift did

lelee Gado G Gu A Ml Wlllll! Telfuigldäl wif

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cumport both.

MI. Aaron. Would inn! include sunnorting the recutive

nider provision being in the law or just supporting?

Senator Mathias. ii me Presidential-why don't

7.1cs

he ambiquous?

Mr. Kirbow. He enorao the concent.

Mr. Davis. If thev're not different.

Mr. direnora. There in a recormandation liare that other

ties of quert artion which should be hamed, nd since we're

talking ahout a statute wich we have submitted which hans

it

then ban he statute, recommend bannina by statute

all political assassinatione which would onlarn the President's

Errutive aedar into a law and. then the ront of those. just

accuming for the sake of arment that the Comnittee vanted to

do that, it could he a roccumondation for logiclation shich

would ban all peacetime molitical ascassinations.

Mr. Kirhow. The staff could work on that lanquage a

little and not it back to vou.

I think me know that vou vant to do here, don't vou.

David?

20

?!

25

Mr. Aaron. yes. I think on can male a fix, jurt make

the point that the politioni cassinations point is putting

in law what the Executive Order is as pronneed l the recutive

Deder or as provided he age turmuttve pror.

sonator Middleer.

all richt

!e's then. to merthrou

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damocratically elected monte.

Me. Inderfurth.

"right montion that Cyrus Vance went

beyond this. He said al! interferenon in the plectoral processes

of a country should be hanned. which roes beyond this.

Senator Mathias.

Perhans that was some subliminal

influence on me, but I've written down efforts to subvert a

valid electoral procege.

It grems to ma that that is better be auce then you

tall abortimerthroving tocratically electe: government,

red knous what that is.

and ann't tnor that you're really

aning to know what a valid electoral prosper is. The Republic

on venico, there they have a very limited electorate, elected

those. .

But. nonetheless; it war their constitution and it

masn't very domocratic.

Put whatever it is. and this would be

in line with george Cannon'e tostimon ales.

we finally have achinniledoed that the Soviet union has

raislature of sorts and me achiowledda their electoral

arocess. although we don't think much of tt.

Ms. culbreth, would your use of the term subvert, would

vou intend to include.within that prerenting the cIA from

anv kind of nolitical or crocoanda in cannaction with the

alactiona

in another country up muy kind of sunnort to one of

the candidates that me minht thint vac

a hotter conde date?

15

Mr. Cutbreth. "it couldern not miheert the rorults be

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influencina the carrying

woof the election?

Senator Huddleston.

wall we subvert our own elections

every time we run.

senator Mathias. Mie pricinal suggestion was efforts

to overthrow democratically elected governments. I mean both

of these - efforts to survert the results of a valid electoral

process

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Senator Huddleston.

think that's all right.

Mr, Inderturth. In a conse what is a derscratically

plectod aovernment?

Movnihan says that in the MaN. there are 24. so in

sonse ve could actually list them.

Mr. Aironova. What about, what is a valid olentoral

nr009s5?

whatever it is in oach country?

I mean the communists

have one party and that's a valid electoral process in that.

country.

Senator Mathias.

this would be cannon's advice.

senator Huddleston. Well. I think ve have to recognize

the right of another countre to have thair electoral nrocess

and it rould he valid if concone in that country were attemptin

to circumvont their establiched constitutional procesers.

Mr.. Maxwell. The amliliar in the Senator's proposal

vas democratic, so that de loadt in cone ay it rostricis the

matinate dictator.

Senator Thule

lt ndermination notte chould be

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in there.

Me. Miller. What come could this brohibit? In our

notions in the nast it sould molibit Chile. Ican -

Me. Fichow. That stare or the chile oreration.

"ir. Miller.

custenal.

Senator Huddleston.

T. cula

not rohibit Angola.

paron:

Tt would morbit core thim that transpired

in lan.

11

" Mitor. It would workthit the potions in thaly.

wouldnt it and France?

Grater Huddleston. Te depende do the term subversion.

No more quer comicting one 1.o.

Mr. richor, Assictiny the head of an clanbion daring

19

.. 2

?!!

1.= Committon.

Mr. Aaron, I mulan'E think that what is going on in

Portugal loofar as de knou tbat that le could come under this

rtchihition:

Me. Miller, Sole could really defect to earne

like

Tran, Guateuala, and Clila.

i Haron. And indonarta:

Conster Huddlegton

le. Aaron. 10.

??!

rik and!

MANt A WON SACRET

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Mr. Inderfurth. We Met 19

he a devil's adirate for

rioment, we don't want to insart then, rising vour language,

Sunator, the efforts to influence or subvert the results of

a valid electoral procees?

senator Mathian.

That mr be too short a leash.

Mr. Inderfurth. nut I think that's a question the

committee has to address.

tt would he a verv short leash.

senator luddleston. mall. there are

ifferent ravs to

inflence and there may be a nonet way in infliance.

Mr. Inderfurth. If there vere a mooner. then cerhaps

one could define the improper war. influencing lie massing money

covert pronaganda. and that time of trina.

Mr. Tirhor:. If the committes's intontion is after

the person is elected and inu don't want to nrevent that kind

as nerson haina put into office by any means, then you do it

hare.

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If vou do not intend as

a committee to preclude using

the press or using other thinas to incluence the outgome of

the election: then we should be solid on that

and star out

of that area.

But it's un to the committee to decide.

Mr. Bader. This

lanquare cneals

In subvertira the

regults, not influencing the untonme.

Mr. Kirbor. And he gora that was his intant.

Scuater Hit Heater.

"He does rot croclude ar from

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Me. Barer. pr.

splitsta?

senator Huddleston.

That's not. a subversion of the

process, that's an assistance.

senator Mathias.:

i That's partirination in the process.

Mr. Inderfurth. What shout after on election hut prior

an the formation of a coalition movernment?

Senator Mathias.

Tould think that would be subverting.

if non get in there and earnll. de are da. ried about who

¡hogs neckle have elected.

Tatan't know it won ronern Mair until thie afternoon

but t was auaro that some American official had made a

throat to tterand that he nold be in trauble if he were

-ted Prira Minister and attornted to hairo eone radical

leftiete into the trench cabinet.

May it rooms to me that that is a throat Io Subvert the

Franch elentoral nrocess and if in fact in carried out that

threat

Ithink that that would he nrohihtted by this language.

Mr. raron. I take it de word silvert ones to covert.

activities.

In other worde, if reneral Mala said that nrivatel!

hut: didn't mean it in torme of covert potion. he just said the

Mnited State guernmont aim:

senator Mathiar.

T. winle the pronident of the linited

sintee or the secretarylee State or the recrotar: of hafenee

mate re all cant me in tront ne de celericion cameras and

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el mader the parliament

Pinto pril give him mooses to

¡ATO's secrats, then ther's mind to bo hell to pay.. and we're

tolling you right now.

Tain't think that'e sahihiter.

But if a shadow man around and catch him in some

connronising nersonal noeition and use the nhotographs to

Hackmail him. or anthina of that sort.

Mr. Sador, Thatle e movert action arinet.

Countor Madleatan.

raring pie ane ation rat this

wale mather of internal

internation in another country -

Mr. Kirhow, sonator. Mistever vou say here is goin

He one of the highoa!

ramireratious dion he the rull

remittee.

Sanator muddlestin

I fool thare wunht to he rome

matrictims and constraint mu our interference in the

internal oneration of the ruarmnent..

Mr. saron. The meet one. support for his heliefs or

me internal crourit... oter securtte grome which engage

in

torturo

Senator Huddlogton. popit me baus sone lorialition to

tant effect?

Mr. Aaron: Thee a mendments renarding Carolen

Mar cle is onen fordin aid. More talline shout covert

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Me. sirhow. thirt

Senator Mathias. "'n ! make a scmantic suggestion here

that we tov to bring this in line with the lanuare in the

Constitution. cruel ant prent rmishmont, because I think

this really reflects. if it'e moing. to moan anything, we ought

to be reflecting our natiral ethic in both of these, hoth

in subverting the results f

valid electoral process--

senator Huddleeton: ront vou are inte the castion

oF carita, minishment.

Me: Maxwell. There's nottier reol len and that is one

of the things that the torture in enraged in in before a

morson has hoen judged to la milty c" a crime. someone who

le icing tortured in an intarronation.. thot pereca muld not

he subject to cruel and musual omnichrey hit Me costematic

riolation at human righte or some other .

Senator Mathias.

That'e a phrase, though. with which

amaricans have heon fartliar since 1797. and it seems to me

it has some valie.

senator Hart. due robler is ve don't give serlous

thought to the way we trent arisonere inithis country.

Senator Mathiar. re I think that's a richlon. I think

that's a rrchlem in thin tel: inina:

someone ence mill it the tine that the tialian rayments

errored

ate we Cellend de Mig all the time and

•e conque the differenco to te go

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around and reaching all mir me vort cout ow hon ethical

standards and then when are shown that me don't live up to

our own standards, that's that brings us the retribution.

But I still. think that no ought or notrithstanding that

this is an opportunito for come linkaco with the constitution.

Put I don't press the poirt l just offer it.

senator liuddleston.

well. I think this is somathing

no should all rive sore the at le in thir bout for louis.

Mr firbow. If ve at coing to do that, tay i suggest

what here we talk about sucrore for roliee on internal security

Forces.

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The remainder of that contener shouldn't re toply

so that it is the policief the countrr incolied? pervise

coure talling about aid ine covert nandigorite! "y maybe

an inadvertent, without:

autority type series of capogures

at torture and whatnot. ad you cut off tae aid to a country.

Air. Aaron. Can 1 speak to that point?

i think that Charley misos an interestine examole and

we have sort of that klud of situation tedey in crazi: where

it is difficult to ascertain whether

it in thin antic: re the

overnment or whether the irrarnal security fores with are

vory franmented among the miliery and the states amd what

have vou, chother theee interol securit force: pi! m lice are

jet on thet min

te. ridenove.

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Me. Maron. I thin this is the mostion. It

roes to

the point not of assistance to the government in general or

even covertly, but assistance to these particular forces, and

that I think does naren it down to the problem:

Senator Huddleston.

What kind of support do ve give the

security forces?

Mr: Kirhow. Traintna.

Mr. Maron. He have in the past: un c'n rive them

tochnical.training. elvetronic devices.

Mr. Kirhow. A whole anootrum excort for l.S. military

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sunnort.

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Mr. didenova.. Some of the neurletaries mere used

for exactly that purpose, to provide traintng and secure

nIncurement and sale and loan of devices hich ultimataly

found their way into the hauds of foreian torturers:

We certainly don't dentive the Agency of any legitimate

source of intelligence because they themselves claim that they

have

never engaged. in this activity knowlugly and don't want

to.

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They say they don't want anything to do with this type

of acttvity and they car ther don't want

to be involver with

Internal police forces that conduct this

tupe of activitv.

The: have said recontly that ther have discontinued

those corte of li:toons, en ta rechibit tom be hanning it

seems to ma to say fir..

we naree with von and we will do it.

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MI. Haron. What noeurs to me is

that

it would se helpful

to have

.a

finding on thir mint.

MI. diGenova.. That's the next issue I was going to

He don't write anything shout this any nace in the

raise.

revort.

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Senator Huddleston.

Ones the laency have a directive

to that effect that they have discontinued or are discontinuina

that we can refer to and may me aprrove or it?

Mr, Inderfurth. To wall an in the Chile covert action

study there is discussion of liaison with the current Chilean

internal security forces and thar the ClA was saving, wel

want to talk to them but we don't ant to be involved

what they're doiny and ye vant to try to stop then from their

penctices of torture and the rest.

So

I mean that's something we can look to as a basis

for our findings.

Mr, dicenova., There's alan a barallel with the drug

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thing:

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Mr. Aaron, Senator, chall we try to see if ve can

come back with some language that tries to work in

the

constitational. noint? I must ca! I personally have a little

difficulty figuring out hop ron turn this around to try to

only to what the police do?

senator Marring. teris think ahour it.

senator Huddles'no. let's rat back at 1:1!: That's a

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whole twe hours and a half.

Whereupon, at soon mm the hearing in the ahove

mentioned matter was recassed, to reconvene at 7:30 o'clock.

m.m. of the same day.)

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