TAPE OF ROBERT MC NAMARA AND GENERAL TAYLOR
Originator: ROCK
Document date: 00/00/1975
Document type: SOUND RECORDING

## Page 1

Date: 07/09/93

Page: 1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : ROCKCOM

BX42.

RECORD NUMBER : 1781000210327

RECORDS SERIES :

ASSASSINATION FILES

CIA No Objocalon

c007.12/1197

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : A-I (I) INTERVIEWS RE ASSASSINATIONS

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION

FROM : BELIN, DAVID

TO : FILE

NO JCS OBJECTION TO

• DECLASSIFICATION: DATE

DEC111997

TITLE :

INTERVIEW WITH SECRETARY ROBERT MC NAMARA

DATE : 04/15/75

PAGES : 6

SUBJECTS :

MC NAMARA, ROBERT

CIA

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

OPERATION MONGOOSE

ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS

EXECUTIVE ACTION CAPABILITY

BUNDY, MC GEORGE

The Department of State has no objection to the

release or declassification of this document in full

under the provisions of the JFK Assassination Records

Collection Act of 1992 (PL102-526)

Reviewed on 12 Dec 97

DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM

CLASSIFICATION : U

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS : P

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/09/93

OPEN IN FULL

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

Unmarked, but may include classified information.

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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COMMISSION ON CIA ACTIVITIES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES

Washington, DC 20500

April 15, 1975

MEMORANDUM

TO

: The File

FROM

: David W. Belin

CIA BAC

c.09

RELEASE OF THIS DOCUWEN

SUBJECT : Interview with Secretary Robert McNamara

Belin:

Secretary McNamara, we've had a brief interview

in your office on - late this afternoon - which

is April 15, 1975, and I have asked you a number of questions

and you have given me your best recollection for your answers,

and I'd like to get a summary of our discussion on this tape

and

then send you a transcript for your editing, and then we

will either prepare an affidavit or perhaps we will still ask

you to come before the Commission, but I understand it is your

preference not to testify formally before the Commission,

because of the nature of your present job. Is that correct?

THE

GI

McNamara: That is correct.

I wish to cooperate with the

Commission in every way. If necessary, of course,

I would testify before them, but I would much prefer to present

whatever information I have in the form of an affidavit.

B:

Fine.

During the Administration of President

Kennedy, You were Secretary of Defense. Is that

correct?

M:

That is correct.

B:

FORD LIBPARY

M:

B:

M:

And were you Secretary of Defense commencing at the

time of the inauguration of President Kennedy?

Yes. Starting January 20, 1961.

And you were Secretary of Defense throughout the

Kennedy Administration. Is that right?

I was.

B:

--and into the Administration of Lyndon Johnson.

M:

B:

until

approximately March 1, 1968.

During that time you were personally close with both

the President and his brother, Robert Kennedy, is

that correct?

M:

I was.

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B:

And you also were close to McGeorge Bundy?

M:

Yes.

B:

As I understand it there was what I am going

to call a "camaderie" in the relationship among

some of the top people in the Kennedy Administration.

M:

Yes. That is correct.

B:

At any time during the Kennedy Administration dia

you hear any person ever discuss a plan known as

an "executive action plan" which in substance was defined

as a capability plan for possibly assassinating any foreign

leader?

ever

M:

I have no recollection of/hearing anyone discuss

such a plan.

PHOTOCOPY

B:

Did you ever hear anyone discuss any particular

plan concerning the possible assassination of

Castro in Cuba?

FROM

M:

No. I have no recollection of such a discussion.

B:

Did you ever serve in any group known as either

the MONGOOSE group or the Special Group Augmented?

Does that ring a bell with you?

THE GERALD R.

M:

No. You mentioned, if I may refer back to our

previous conversation, that I was present at least

one or more meetings of the Special Operations Group, I believe

you called it.

I have no recollection of being present at

the meeting. I'm not suggesting I wasn't, but I have no

recollection of it.

I do seem to recall that there was such

a group, I doubt very much if I was a member of it.

LIBPARY

B:

You might have been a participant at one or more

of these meetings?

M:

I might have been a participant.

B :

At any such meetings, did you ever hear anyone

discuss as a possibility the question of possibly

assassinating Castro or any other foreign leader?

M:

No. I should interject here, another point I made

earlier, as I have no notes -- I did not take notes of

• any meetings I attended with rare exceptions,

and I have

no other basis for refreshing my memory and my memory of those

En.

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years is very bad. I'm not saying this to in any way qualify

what I am saying except that it is a fact that my memory is

poor in relation to the period.

B:

I asked you whether or not Robert Kennedy ever had

any such discussions with you and you indicated no,

is that correct?

M:

--indicated two things. First that I have no re-

collection whatsoever of him ever having discussed

assassination of anybody with me--or whatever you called it--

the executive --

B:

executive action capability --

M:

executive action capability. Moreover, it is in-

conceivable to me that he would have discussed

such an action with me because I think he would have felt

that it endangered the Presidency and I believe he would

have had moral reasons for not supporting any such action

by the Government of the United States, and I base both of

those points on my appraisal of his evaluation of the Bay of

Pigs and the extent to which it weakened the presidency and

the

ability of the President to govern and his behavior

during the Cuban missile crisis when he strongly opposed

action which he considered contrary to the moral traditions

of this society.

B:

Do you have any other comments with regard to this

whole question of possibly assassinating foreign

leaders?

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R.

You told me that you understand a plan to assassinate

one or more foreign leaders was in existence for

an extended period of time, during 1961-2-3. I said (a) I

FORD LIBPARY

have no recollection of any

such plan, (b) I find it very

difficult to believe that if such a plan had existed its

existence wouldn't have been known to the top officials of

the CIA, and certainly if I had known of it I am positive I

would have made my knowledge known to the President, fRobert

Kennedy, neither of whom obviously can testify now, but to

Mac Bundy, to my deputy, Ros Gilpatric, and probably to

Dean Rusk, and I would strongly urge that you check those

three individuals.

In addition, Max Taylor was very close

to Robert Kennedy at the time.

He was brought in by President

Kennedy to examine the decision-making process of the Government

that could have led to such a failure as the Bay of Pigs.

He was very--Max was very close to both Robert Kennedy and

the President at the time.

He was very close to the whole

Ined

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problem of Cuban

relations.

He played a major part in the

Cuban missile crisis discussions because of his association

with the Kennedys and his

work with the Bay of Pigs follow-on.

So I would urge you to talk to him about this as well.

And

if Mac didn't know about it, and Max doesn't know about it

and Dean Rusk doesn't and Ros Rilpatrick doesn't and I have

no memory of it, I very much doubt that any such plan was

known to the top officials of the Kennedy Administration.

B:

Well, assume for the moment that one of those people

did know about such a plan, and assume for the

moment that the CIA documents show that such a plan might

have been directed to be instituted by someone in the White

House 1

who in the White House do you think would have had

the authority to institute such a plan?

M:

Well, I have said before that I felt the attacks

on the CIA -- CIA's covert operations, were unjustified

insofar as they assessed the primary responsibilities for

those operations against the senior officials in CIA and

absolve the rest of the senior officials in the Government

of responsibility. I said that because it was my experience

that all major CIA operations were approved by a group that

subsequently became known as the 303 Group. I dof't know

what it was called during its early period, which included

representatives of the -- the highest level representatives --

of the Secretaries of State and Defense, as well as the

President's Security Adviser.

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD

B :

That was Mr. Bundy.

M:

FORD

That was Mr. Bundy, during the period you are

talking about, so that I am almost certain that

were an assassination contemplated, which seems to me, as I say,

taken to move in that direction, it would have had to have

received the approval of not just Mr. Bundy but other

officials at that same level, including my Deputy, I think, and

Deputy never would have approved anything like that without

discussing it with me.

B:

What you are saying--at least if it came through

the White HOuse, certainly Mr. Bundy would have

known

about it.

M:

I think he would have both known about it, and I

don't believe that he would have approved it by

himself.

I think it would have been discussed with Dean

Rusk and me or my deputy and Dean Rusk's undersecretary.

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B :

And if Mr. Bundy did not know about it, then the

only other person in the White House that might

have known about it, I assume, would have been the President.

Is that a fair statement?

M:

That's a

unlikely. I can't imagine that anything relating

to the CIA operation of this kind would be known to the

President and not Mr. Bundy. I never knew of any such thing.

В:

So if it would have been known to Mr. Bundy it would h

been known to the President. And vice versa?

M:

No, nono. I didn't say that. I said I couldn't

imagine

anything relating to a CIA operation that was

imagine some mess it ton to me. Bandy, I can

"РНОТОСОРУ

respect to CIA known to Mr. Bundy,

not known to the President either because they weren't that

important or conceivably because it was thought desirable

to protect the President from certain knowledge.

B:

With regard to the --

If I may -- add one word to that. I can't imagine

Mr. Bundy himself supporting assassination. I

can't imagine him supporting assassination of a foreign

leader, without mentioning it to the President, even though

to do

so would by that action involve the President.

FROM THE GERALD R.

I can't imagine him supporting assassination of a foreign

leader without the President's knowledge because it is the

President who would pay if that action were undertaken and it

the importance of protecting the Presidency as well as

a particular president, and particularly protecting his ability

to govern.

B.:

I want to correct one thing on the record. You

referred to my statement about one or more assassi-

nation plans.

only particular plan of assassination that

you and I discussed that I said I knew anything about as to

be concrete affirmative plans involved just Castro. I saia

there might have

been indirect involvement in one other area, but

the only direct involvement thus far that I know of at this

time and that I discussed with you pertained to Castro.!

M:

Yes, yes, you are quite right.

And

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B:

Anything else you want to add for the record?

M:

No, except I'm horrified by the whole discussion,

shocked by it and I just hope you will pursue all

these leads some of which you may already have--I am saddened

by it too.

B:

As a citizen I am horrified by it and I am saddened

by it, that my country which at one time became the

land of the free and the home of the brave would be involved

in situations of this kind, but we are trying to find out

what the facts are and hopefully it will not happen again.

Thank you very much, Sir.

M:

Thank you:

(END OF TAPE)

saged 5/1175

PHOTOCOPY

FROM

FORD LIBPARY

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