Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
From: GOODPASTURE, ANN
Document date: 04/13/1978
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

180-10110-10029

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/19/20

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10110-10029

RECORD SERIES:

SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY

AGENCY FILE NUMBER:

014739

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: HSCA

FROM:

[Restricted]

TO :

TITLE:

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

04/13/1978

155

CIA, FILES

CIA, METHODOLOGY

(Restricted]

MEXICO

CIA, STAFF

DOCUMENT TYPE:

TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS :

1A; 1B

CURRENT STATUS:

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW :

01/01/2003

OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

Two duplicates in next folder. Original includes index. Box 9.

v9.1

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THURSDAY, APRIL 13, 1978

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U.S. House of Representatives,

Subcommittee on the Assassina-

tion of John F. Kennedy of

the Select Committee on

Assassinations,

Washington, D.C.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:15 a.m.

in room 1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Richardson

Preyer (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Preyer, Dodd, Fithian and

Sawyer.

Also present: G. R. Blakey, G. Cornwell, E. Berning,

D. Hardway, B. Wolf, M. Goldsmith, R. Morrison, R. Genzman,

K. Klein and W. Cross.

Mr. Preyer. The Committee will come to order.

The Chair recognizes the clerk of the Committee to read

us a record of those members who are officially designated

to be on the Subcommittee today, pursuant to Committee Rule

12.3.

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The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, you, Mr. Thone, MI. Sawyer

and Mr. Dodd are regular members of the Subcommittee.

Mx .

Fithian will be substituting for Mrs. Burke.

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Mr. Preyer. Thank you.

The Chair will entertain a motion to go into Executive

Session at this time.

Mr. Sawyer. I so move, Mr. Chairman.

MI. Preyer. There has been a motion that today's

hearing, cone that the hearing be held in Executive Session..

This is on the basis that information obtained by the

Committee, that the evidence or testimony may tend to degrade

or incriminate people.

The Clerk will call the roll on the motion.

The Clerk. MI. Preyer?

Mr. Preyer. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Thone?

(No response)

The Clerk. Mr. Sawyer?

Mr. Sawyer. Aye.

The Clerk. MI.

Dodd?

(No response)

The Clerk. Mr. Fithian?

MI. Fithian. Aye.

The Clerk. Three ayes, Mr. Chairman.

MI. Preyer. The meeting is declared closed and the

room will be cleared of all unauthorized personnel.

Are you ready to call the witness at this time?

Mr. Goldsmith. I have some statements. I would like to

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make off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

MI. Fithian. Would the witness please stand to be

sworn?

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MS: Goodpasture. I have one problem. I cannot hear.

Mr. Fithian. Can you hear if I come through at this

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Ms. Goodpastrue. Yes. I use a hearing aid. It is not

always reliable. I do not want you to waste my time and I

do not want to waste too much of yours.

Mr. Fithian: We will

need to swear you in, Ms. Good-

pasture:

Ms. Goodpasture. Do you want me to stand?

Mr. Fithian. Yes, please stand.

Do you swear thatethe information you are about to

give to this Committee is the truth, the whole truth and

nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

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TESTIMONY OF ANN GOODPASTURE

MI. Goldsmith. Would you state your name and address

for the reCord?

Ms. Goodpastrue. My name is Ann Goodpasture. My locäl

address is with friends in Maryland, 5600 Bridgeview.

My mailing address, at the moment, is in care of my

father in Livingstone, Tennessee.

MI. Fithian. If I may, now that we have your name on

the record and your address, I would like to explain our

proceedings here, Miss Goodpasture.

The House Resolution 222, under which this Subcommittee

acts, mandates that the Committee conduct a full and complete

investigation and study of the circumstances surrounding the

assassination and the death of President John F. Kennedy

including deternining whether the existing laws of the United

States concerning the protection of the President and the

investigatory jurisdiction and capability of agencies and

departments are adequate in their provisions and enforcement;

and whether there was full disclosure of evidence

and informa

tion among agencies and departments of the United States

government; and whether any information or evidence not in

theppossession of an agency or department would have been of

assistance in investigating the assassination; and why such

information was not provided or collected by that

agency or

department; and to make recommendations to the House, if the

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Select Committee deems it appropriate, for the amendment of

existing legislation or the enactment of new legislation.

I would like, because of the special expertise of this

witness, if counsel will withhold for just a moment, say a

word of two about the process that we are engaged in.

First, we commend you for your long years of service

to a very, very important agency of this government. I

personally was a part of that in a very, very small way in

the Navy a long time ago, and I commend you for your dedica-

tion and your experience and what has come to be your reputa-

tion for, as we have talked with other members of the agency,

they have referred to you as sort of the touchstone, or the

person who was the expert among the experts.

I want to say also that I personally want to commend

our Chief Counsel, Professor Blakey, and our assistant

counsels for their long and dilligent effort to build a

relationship with the agencies which is now beginning to be

extremely productive and fruitful in our whole process of

trying to get all the information and to lay the matter of

the assassination of the President of the United States to

rest permanently with the complete story.

I just wanted you to know that we have been working

with the CIA and the FBI and they have been very cooperative

with us as well as the State. Department in the two investi

gations in which we are now engaged; and I look forward to

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your testimony today as a person of longstanding and long

experience with one of the key agencies in the United

States

government and hope that we can proceed today to fit

in some pieces of the mosaic that we are trying to assemble.

Counsel may proceed.

Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Goodpasture, have you received

a

copy of the Committee Rules and the Committee Resolution?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, you gave me a copy yesterday.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is your present employment status,

Miss Gooâpasture?

Ms. Goodpasture. Pardon me?

Mr. Goldsmith. What is your present employment status,

Miss Goodpasture?

Ms. Goodpastrue. I am retired.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you formerly employed with the

Central Intelligence Agency?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes i

Mr. Goldsmith. What was yourterm of service with the

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CIA?

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Ms. Goodpasture. What was my term of service?

Mr. Goldsmith. How many years were you with the CIA?

Ms. Goodpasture.. Over 31.

Mr. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like to refer to

Exhibit 94. Would the Clerk please hand that to the witness?

Miss Goodpasture --

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Ms. Goodpasture. I read this yesterday.

Mr. Goldsmith. - Exhibit No. 94 is a copy of a letter

written by the present Director of Central Intelligence to the

Chairman of this Committee. I believe a copy was

given to

you yesterday, is that correct?

Ms . Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you read that letter yesterday?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you understand that letter?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. You indicated that you worked with the

Central Intelligence Agency for 31 years. Which branch within

the CIA did you work for?

Ms. Goodpasture. For the entire length of time?

Mr. Goldsmith.

Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, I worked for a number of

different branches, but most of the time I was outside of the

United States and it came under what is now called the

Director of Operations, or clandestine service. I suppose

that would be a more appropriate term..

MI. Goldsmith. Fine.

When did you retire from the CIA?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think it was in June, 1973.

Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Goodpasture, I am drawing your

attention to 1963. Where were you stationed at that time?

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Ms • Goodpasture.

Where was I stationed at that time?

Mr. Goldsmith.

Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture.

Here in Washington. Oh, 1963?

Excuse me.

Mr. Goldsmith. - Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. I thought you said '73. I was

stationed in Mexico City.

Mr. Goldsmith. In what capacity were you stationed

in Mexico City?

Ms. Goodpasture. I was a staff employee of the CIA

in the Embassy working under cover of the State Department.

Mr. Goldsmith. What were your responsibilities as a

staff employee at that time?

Ms. Goodpasture. I worked as a case officer on liaison

projects with the Mexicans and liaison with other government

agencies represented in the Embassy. I did routine clerical

office functions, originating correspondence, answering

correspondence.

MI. Goldsmith. What type of liaison work did you do

with the Mexican government?

Ms. Coodpasture.: What type of a t0u wore did conta

WT i

Mr. Golsmith. - liaison work did you do with the

Mexican government.

Ms. Goodpasture. What type of inside?

MI. Goldsmith. Liaison. You indicated that you did

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liaison work with the Mexican government:

Ms. Goodpasture. Electronic surveillance.

MI. Goldsmith. Who was the Chief of Station?

Ms. Goodpasture. Winston Scott.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it appropriate to refer to you as

having been Winston Scott's righthand man during your term

of service in Mexico City?

MS. Goodpasture. I take exception to that. First of

all, I am not a man; and second, I think that his righthand

person was his Deputy who participated in all the decision

making processes, which I did not, and acted for Mr. Scott

in his absence.

A lot of people said that I was Winn's right hand because e

at times he asked me to do things for him that he did not ask

other people to do. He depended upon me for certain projects

that he managed, or he wanted to manage, and I did the legwork

for it.

I would not say that I was his right hand in the entire

station.

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Mr. Goldsmith. How many years did you work in Mexico

City?

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Ms• Goodpasture.

Eleven.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you working with Mr. Scott that

entire time?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes. He was there first.

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Mr. Goldsmith. You indicated that you were not

involved in the actual decision-making process.

Were you

privy to the actual decision-making process?

Ms. Goodpasture. It depended upon what it concerned.

If it was a project that I worked or, I participated in it,

but if it were a station activity, I did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did your work at the station in Mexico

City also involve occasionally making contact. with CIA agents

in the field?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give the Congressional panel

an evaluation of Winn Scott's competence as the Chief of

Station?

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, I think that he was a very

conscientious man, he was a hardworking man, he expected

everyone else to do their work, he worked long hours. Some

people felt, or expressed the opinion, in my presence, that

he was a hard worker and expected too much from employees,

but I do not think that that was really the case.

He was

a very conscientious man, an intelligent man. He obviously

had the intelligence for the post, or he would not have been

assigned there.

MI. Goldsmith. Is the Mexico City station one of the

largest CIA stations in operation?

Ms. Goodpasture. At the present time, I do not know.

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official files that could be destroyed without a certificate

of destruction being made. That did not apply to our rough

notes that we made, but you could not take a file out, go

through it and tear it up because you did not like something

in it.

Mr. Goldsmith. It has been said

• of Mx. Scott that

during his tenure in Mexico City not even a shred of paper

was thrown out or moved from the Mexico City station files.

Would you say that is an accurate statement?

Ms. Goodpasture. Some of the rough paper was thrown

out, the rough paper that he considered supporting data for a

dispatch that he had written or a cable that he sent, he kept.

He insisted that other people do the same thing.

Mr. Goldsmith, Fine.

At this time, I am going to get into the area of the

surveillance operations in Mexico City:

Miss Goodpasture, what kinds of surveillance operations

did the CIT have in Mexico City in 1963 with respect to the

Soviet and Cuban consulate and embassies?

Ms, Goodpasture. Well, we had electronic surveillance,

wiretaps, which covered telephone conversations:

MI. Goldsmith. If I may interrupt you for a moment, could

you possibly raise the mike closer to your mouth so that we

might hear you better?

Ms. Goodpasture.

We had electronic surveillance,

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wiretaps on the telephones in the Soviet Embassy, and we had

photographic surveillance.

There was also what they called foot surveillance at

times, when people were interested, they could find out where

they were staying, where they went from the Soviet Embassy.

MI. Goldsmith. That would be physical surveillance?

Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning first to the area of photographic

surveillance, what was the purpose of the photographic

surveillance project with regard to the Soviet and Cuban

embassies and consuls?

Ms. Goodpasture. My understanding of that was that it

was to be used to identify those people who might be working

for the Soviets as espionage agents who were U.S. citizens

who went down there driving a car with a U.S. license plate

on it, or people we did not know but could identify.

The same procedure was also used for trying to identify

people other than U.S. citizens, but it was concentrated in

the beginning on license plates or rumbers, or something that

could be identified.

Mr. Goldsmith. An attempt would be made to take pic-

tures of both the car, license plates and the occupants of

the car, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine.

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At that time, it was one of the largest ones in Latin America,

but not in comparison to the other places. I could not

comment

on the size of the other places.

Mr. Goldsmith. What kind of attitude did Mr. Scott

have towards the importance of files and recordkeeping systems

at the Mexico City station?

Ms. Goodpasture. He was very conscientious. He wanted

them maintained accurately and completely.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long were the files that he main-

tained preserved?

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, I am not too sure about that.

They were there up until the time that I left, but I think

that there was a reduction because of space in 1969. 'The

files were cut back, but I do not have firsthand knowledge

of that because I did not participate in it.

Mr. Goldsmith. During the time that you were in Mexico

City with MI. Scott, to your knowledge was anything ever

thrown out of destroyed from the Mexico City station files?

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, several things were destroyed

that. were.not considered of any value as far as the work at

that time was concerned.

We looked at it more or less like

keep cash register receipts for a grocery bill. There was a

limitation of space on just how long you could keep certain

things.

But there were no documents that were a part of the

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Turning now to the photographic surveillance operation

with regard to the Soviet Embassy and consulate, I would

like to ask you, what role, if any, did you play with regards

to this surveillance operation during 1963?

Ms. Goodpasture. In 1963, I was more or less a bystander

of that operation because the operation, at times, was conducted

by another case officer.

I screened and looked at the photographs because I had

been there in the early part of the operation where the

photograph bases were first set up, were first used. I had

an interest in them, or looked at them to see that they were

in focus, that the negatives were all printed, and Mt..

Scott. asked me to do that because I had been a commercial

photographer before I went to work for the

government

MI. Goldsmith, Are you saying, in 1963, your roll

with regard to the photographic surveillance at the Soviet

Embassy was to review photographs, essentially to evaluate

their quality?

Ms • Goodpasture.

Their technical quality.

Mr. Goldsmith, Not for the purpose of obtaining subser

quent information from the photographs?

Ms. Goodpasture. No, because, at that time, by 1963

there was a staff there who had been assigned to work on

Soviet matters and it was their function to investigate the

leads - we called them leads -- to try to identify the person

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at the Soviet embassy they were interested in

So all the raw material went to them. I usually took

a quick look at the photographs when they came in, and if

I noticed anything significant about them, I mentioned it to

the Soviet case officer, but he gave the formal reporting on

all the Soviet information.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand.

How many cameras were in operation with regard to the

photosurveillance of the Soviet Embassy and consulate?

Ms. Goodpasture. Three. There were three, generally.

There could be any number:

if we wanted to put some on

the street, but at that time, I think there were only three.

MI. Goldsmith. Where

were these cameras located?

Ms. Goodpasture. Where?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. They were located around the building.

the embassy building, to cover the area in the yard and in

the front gate.

Ms. Goldsmith, So the cameras were situated so that

they would photograph the yard area and front entrance gate?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes •

Mr. Goldsmith. During this period, was your role with

regards to this project at any time of a supervisory nature,

actually supervising the project?

Ms. Goodpasture. Informally it could have been interpreted

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in that way, but I never had the responsibility for them

alone

MI. Goldsmith, As a practical matter, you were acting

in an informal supervising capacity?

Ms. Goodpasture. It could have been interpreted that

way by some of the people, because they would come to me and

bring me photographs and say, what do you think of this, do

you think that this is a latin, or do you think he has ever

been to the Soviet Embassy before.

MI. Goldsmith.

In your own opinion do you think you

were acting, at least informally, in a supervisory capacity

with regards to this project?

Ms, Goodpasture.

NO.

Mr. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like for the

witness to be

given Stack C of the documents that have been

prepared

(Pause)

I would like to draw your attention to page 2 of the

documents that appear in Stack C.

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to ask you if you can

identify that document.

Ms. Goodpasture.

This looks like a copy of a cable sent

from the Mexico station on the 8th of October.

Mr. Goldsmith.

To whom would the cable have been sent?

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Ms. Goodpasture. It was sent to Washington.

Mr Goldsmith. CIA Headquarters?

Ms. Goodpasture. CIA Headguarters.

MI. Goldsmith. I would like to have you examine the

cable in more detail. I call your attention to the first

paragraph.

What does the term "the envoy" mean?

Ms. Goodpasture. What was that again?

Mr. Goldsmith. I am sorry. I am drawing your atten-

tion to the first paragraph.

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. The second word --

Ms. Goodpasture. Page two?

Mr. Goldsmith. Page two. There appears a word "the

envoy." What does that word mean?

Ms. Goodpasture. That was a cryptonym to identify

the telephone surveillance, Instead of saying a telephone

tap operation we used crytonyms for all of the things that

involved assets outside that could be identified.

MI. Goldsnith. I am not drawing your attention to the

upper lefthand corner of this document. There appears the

word "orig." What does that stand for?

Ms, Goodpasture. The person who wrote the cable.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does that stand for originating officer?

Ms, Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. You say the originating officer is the

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person who wrote the cable, correct?

Ms: Goodpasture. In this case, it is.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was identified in this document as

the originating officer.

Ms. Goodpasture. The originating officer is Mr. Herbert

Minell.

Mr. Goldsmith. Please listen to my questions carefully

and just answer my questions. I think you may be trying to

anticipate.

Who is identified in the upper lefthand corner as the

person who issued the document? What name is given?

Does it say L.A. Dilinger?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes.

MI. Goldsnith. Is the term L.A. Dilinger a pseudonym?

Ms. Goodpasture. Right:

Mr. Goldsmith. It is a pseudonym for Herbert Minell?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

MI. Goldsmith. I take it that these documents commonly

used pseudonymns, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture.

In almost all cases that was the

practice.

Mr. Goldsmith. What would be the purpose of using a

pseudonyn?

Ms, Goodpasture®

In case the document happened to fall

outside classified control, it would be meaningless to the

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people who picked it up than if the true name were on it.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand.

Let us take a look at the lower righthand comer of

this same document. It says, releasing officer. What is

a releasing officer?

Ms. Goodpasture.

w. C. Curtis. That was a pseudonym

for Winston Scott.

MI. Goldsmith, Understood.

What is a releasing officer? What are his responsibil-

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Ms. Goodpasture. The supervisor, the person who decides:

that the message should be sent; generally the releasing offi-

cer is the chief, the senior person there at the time, the

person who will assume responsibility for the message after

it has been transmitted.

MI. Goldsmith. The message would.

Ms. Goodpasture. For instance, in an Embassy, if a

document goes to the communications center signed by someone

who is not the senior person in the section, they will not

send it; just everybody cannot take a message to the message

center and say, send this cable to Washington.

So this is to make sure that the Chief of the Section

knows that is going on by everybody in his section,

MI. Goldsmith. I would not like to draw your attention

to page 5 of Stack C. That pertains to a different cable, but

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simply for the purpose of clarifying terminology, I would

like you to look at the lower righthand corner where it says,

"Authenticating Officer."

What is an authenticating officer?

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, this cable originated in

Washington and in Washington there are more than one chief,

so the person who signs off on it -- it may be a Branch Chief.

In this case, it was the Division Chief.

He approved sending the cable and then his superior

released it.

Mr. Goldsmith.

So the authenticating officer woüld be

someone under the releasing officer, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, to be sure about that, you

would have to check with the communications people on their

practices, but I think that sometimes it could be the sane.

If

the authenticating officer were the Section Chief,

then the Section Chief could also release the message.

Me. Goldsmith.

Were you ever an authenticating officer?

Ms: Goodpasture. No, Well, I have signed off on cables

going out from Headquarters at times, I am sure.

Mr, Goldsmith.:. Only from Headquarters?

Ms. Goodpasture. The fact that you sign there as an

authenticating officer does that mean that that is a title,

It means that you were the person who were probably best

informed on that subject, I think.

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MI. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, is

it the responsibility of the authenticating officer to verify

the contents of the cable?

Ms. Goodpasture. It might be, I do not know.:

Mr. Goldsmith.

What would the specific purpose of an

authenticating officer be?

Ms. Goodpasture. I never went into that terminology

with anyone.

Mr Fithian. Would the counsel permit a question?

MI (Goldsmith. Yes, sir.

MI. Fithian. In our Navy communications sytem, we

sometimes distinguished between an authenticating officer as

one who not only authorized the sending of the cable, but

authenticated or verified or vouched for, the content.

Is that similar?

Ms, Goodpasture. That would be the literal interpre-

tation of the word. Whether ornot it was used in air traffic

all the time or not, I do not know.:

My guess would be that that is correct.

MI. Fithian. Do you know whether, in CIA traffic,

you had to have both an authenticating officer and a releasing

officer for a single message?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think that there were times when one

person could sign both places.

MI. Fithian. Thank you, counsel,

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Mr. Goldsmith. Would the phrase authenticating officer

appear only on cable traffic that originated at headguarters?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know. You would have to

compare the field forms and headquarters forms to be sure

of that.

MI. Goldsmith. On those occasions when you acted as

authenticated officer, did you see your purpose as being that

of verifying the contents of the cable for accuracy?

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Mr. Goldsmithin I would like, to go now to page 2. of

the documents contained, in Stack C and I would like you to

read the second paragraph.

(Pause)

Ms Goodpasture. Yes.

Mx. Goldsmith,

Was the photograph referred to in this

paragraph obtained by the CIA's photo surveillance operation

of the Soviet Embassy?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Well, this message has a mistake in it which was not

noted at that time in paragraph 2, and that is the date.

MI. Goldsmith. We will get to that later on to clarify

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Would you tell the Committee what the scope of the

coverage of the Soviet Embassy and consulate was?

By that,

I mean in September and October, 1963, at what times were the

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Soviet Embassy and consulate under surveillance?

Ms. Goodpasture. I cannot give you the exact times.

I can guess, and my guess is that they were open most of

the time when the consulate was opened for business hours.

But the person who would have that information, the only

person who would know, is the case officer who was handling

the project at that time..

Mr. Goldsmith. Even though you were acting in what you

regard as an informal supervisory capacity, you do not

recall?

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find that specific information from the records and I could

not find it; and I do not know... I am sorry. I cannot answer

that•

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Mr. Goldsmith;

Fine.

I am sorry. It has just been drawn to my attention that

we should clarify --

Ms. Goodpasture, I did not answer that paragraph 2.

I noticed that. Photograph, yes. That was my fault, not yours.

I wanted to correct that date so you would not get the impres-

sion that there was a photograph on the lst of October because

the photograph was made on the 2nd of October, but it was made

by the surveillance from the Soviet Embassy.

MI. Goldsmith,

Fine.

You indicated that the scope of the coverage, to your

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knowledge, was probably at such time as the soviet Embassy

and consulate was open, in other words, working hours. Is

that correct, to the best of your knowledge?

Ms. Goodpasture, I think that it was at working hours.

Mr. Goldsmith. What were the working hours of the soviet

Embassy and consulate in September and October, 1963?

Ms. Goodpasture. Ii do noteknow.

Mx. Goldsmith. How many years did you work in Mexico

City?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Eleven.

MI. Goldsmith. Working in Mexico City for eleven

years and you do not know what the working hours were?

Ms. Goodpasture, The Soviet Embassy changed their

working hours frequently. Their consulate might be open

from

8:00 to 10:00 on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays or they

might change it from 10:00 to 12:00 on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

But for me to say now that in September, 1963, without having

document to prove it, that they were open from 10:00 to

12:00 would be rather foolish because I really do not know.

what their hours were at that time.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us refer to a document, then. Will

the Clerk hand the witness Stack D?

Drawing your attention to page 3 -

Ms, Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. In Stack D, can you identify this

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document?

Ms. Goodpasture.

It looks like a cable that was sent

to Mexico.

MI. Goldsmith.

Is that cable 9332?

Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to ask you to

read the

first paragraph of that cable.

Ms. Goodpasture. It has the normal work hours there.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does this cable accurately reflect what

the normal working hours were of the Soviet Embassy?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know. The work hours are

listed here, but I do not know who originated this cable.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the authenticating officer on

this cable?

Ms. Goodpasture. I did, but I could not find this

message last year.

Mr. Goldsmith.. The answer to the question who the

authenticating officer was Is YOU?

Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

MI. Goldsmith,

there on page 4 it indicates that the

authenticating officer was R. B, Riggs-

Ms • Goodpasture.

That was my pseudo.

Mr. Goldsmith, In light of the fact that you were

the authenticating --

Ms. Goodpasture.

I do not have a memory of the specific

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hours at that time.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like, at this point, to refer

your attention to page 1 of the documents contained in Stack

D.

I would like to ask you to read the first two para-

graphs:

(Pause)

Ms. Goodpasture. The first paragraph?

MI. Goldsmith. It is labelled up top, memo to Mr.

Popitch at FBI. I think that it is the stack that we just put

by your right hand. I would like to ask you to read the

first two paragraphs.

Ms. Goodpasture. The first paragraph?

MI. Goldsmith. The first two paragraphs.

(Pause)

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does the information contained in this

document contradict the information that is contained --

disregard that question.

The question I have now is, according to this document,

it appears that the photograph surveillance was of a continu-

ous nature during daylight hours.

Ms. Goodpasture. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. What. I am saying, according to this

document, the photograhpic surveillance of the Soviet Embassy

and

consulate was of a continuous nature during daylight

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Ms. Goodpasture, We are talking about two different

things here. The surveillance, someone was available there,

but they did not make pictures. They may have been watching

the activity from 9:00 o'clock in the morning until 1:00

o'clock and may have only made two pictures, one at 11:00.

and one at 12:00.

As far as photographic surveillance being continuous,

that would be really inaccurate because it was not a camera

making a picture of every minutels activity.

Mr. Goldsmith, However, there were personnel stationed

at positions outside the Soviet Embassy compound who had

photographic equipment available and who could take pictures

at any

time during daylight hours, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know whether it would be or

not. At any time during daylight hours?

MI. Goldsmith. I am drawing your attention to the

second paragraph of this document, page 1, the very first

sentence of that paragraph. It says the photographic

coverage of the mentioned installations is of a continuous

nature during daylight hours. Is that an accurate statement?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think in November of 1973 --

Mr. Goldsmith.

163.

Ms, Goodpasture, -- after the assassination, the case

officers ordered their people to be on duty continuously. I

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am not sure of that. That probably may have prompted this

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MI. Goldsmith. This documented is dated November 27,

1963.

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Ms, Goodpasture

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture.

That is the date that is on the

document :

Mr. Goldsmith.: This document seems to indicate, does

it not, that the photographic coverage of the installations

was of a continuous nature during daylight hours. Is that

correct?

Ms. Goodpasture: That is what the document says here.

MI. Goldsmith. This was a document that was given to

the FBI by the CIA. Is the information contained in this

document accurate as far as that specific sentence is

concerned?

Ms. Goodpasture. I assume it is. This memorandum was

written in washington, though, at headquaiters.

Mr. Goldsmith. In your previous answer, you seemed to

be suggesting that this document referred to the coverage

of the embassies after November 22, 1963, I am referring

to the period of september-October 163.

Ms. Goodpasture. I think that this menorandum was

written to tell them the coverage that had been instituted

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after the assassination.

MI. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, to the

best of your knowledge, what was the scope of the photographic

surveillance of the Soviet Embassy in September and October

1963?

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Ms: Goodpasture, What is that?

MI. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, to the

best of your knowledge, what was the photographic -- what

was the scope of the photographic surveillance coverage of

the Soviet Embassy and consulate in September and October,

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Ms. Goodpasture. During the hours that that office

would have been opensto receive visitors from the public.

MI. Goldsmith. Would the clerk please now hand to the

witness the stack labelled A?

Stack A contains actually four sub-stacks, A-l, A-2,

A-3 and A-4.

I would like to draw your attention to Stack A-3.

Ms. Goodpasture.

Page 3?

Mr. Goldsmith. Stack A-3, one of the stacks contained

in Stack A..

Ms• Goodpasture.

What page?

Mr. Goldsmith. It is a separate sub-stack within the

overall Stack A

Has your attertion now been drawn to Stack A-3?

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Ms • Goodpasture.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Can you identify the document that

appears on Stack A-3?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. (Goldsmith, What is that document?

Ms. Goodpasture. This is a memorandum,

a rough draft,

that I wrote from memory when I came to Washington a year ago

to be used as background material to try to get together the

information about what was the situation in Mexico at the

time of Oswald's visit and the assassination and to name

people who were there that we could talk to and locate their

records and get as complete a report as we could on what

happened there.

Mr. Goldsmith. Of all the available personnel from

Mexico City, why were you specifically asked to prepare this

memorandum?

Ms, Goodpasture. I do not think anybody else was will-

ing to do it:

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that you were asked to

prepare this memorandum because you had more information

concerning this issue?

Ms. Goodpasture. No, I was asked to do it because the

man who was reviewing it had never been at the Mexico station

and it is just as though he was asked to write a report on this

committee; that he wanted someone that had been in Mexico.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Before we proceed, I would like to ask

you, Miss Goodpasture, to wait until I have finished asking

my question, and although you may have answered the question

I was asking, I would like to ask it again.

Why were you specifically chosen to prepare this

memo randum?

Ms.: Goodpasture. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was anybody else from the Mexico City

station who served with you in 1963 asked to prepare similar

memoranda?

Ms. "Goodpasture.

I was told that all of the people who

were there at the time would be interviewed and would be

asked to do the same thing that I was asked to do.

Mr. Goldsmith. Io your knowledge, did they?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know. I did not see any of

the results, but that does not mean that they did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you familiar with the CIA's Inspec-

tor General Report of 1977?

Ms. Goodpasture. The CIA what?

Mr. Goldsmith. Inspector General's Report of 1977?

Among other things, it dealt with the question of the surveil-

lance operation of Cuban and Soviet Embassies in Mexico City

in 1963.

Ms. Goodpasture. I am sorry. I am going to have to

ask you to repeat that because there is a word in there at the

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board?

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No, I did not. I will try to speak up

and to clarify my questions for you. Why do we not defer that

until later on?

I would like to address your attention to page 19 of

this document.

(Pause)

What appears on page 19 of this document? What infor

mation appears on page 19 of this document?

Ms. Goodpasture. There is a list of names and dates.

Mr. Goldsmith. What are the names and dates related

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Ms. Goodpasture. There were related to people who were,

or who I thought, could have been in Mexico at that time, but

this document was never checked. I did this, I tried to do

this from memory and it was to be checked from the personnel

records for accuracy as well as the other memorandum that you

have.

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What we have here is my rough draft and there may be

some names of people who were not there.

MI. Goldsmith. I understand we are only going to focus

this time on a few of the names.

Drawing your attention to the middle of the page where

it says "unilateral photo, Soviets," do you see that?

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Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. Is your name mentioned under that

category?

MS •

Goodpasture.

My name was there in the initial

status.

Mr. Goldsmith. I think the question calls for a yes or

no answer.

Was your name -

Ms. Goodpasture, Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. This was in a report that you prepared,

is that correct?

Ms. Goödpasture. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. It says Goodpasture, alternate CO in

•

internal routing. What does that mean?

Mr. Goodpasture. That means that during the time that

Harry Mahoney was there, when the base was first set up, I

was his alternate case officer and I did the internal routing

for the Soviet photographs. My tenure lasted much longer. I

kept an interest in the Soviets -- I mean in the photographs.

when the other people were away on holidays I could meet with

their contact and pick up the photographs and route them.

Sometime in 1964, I had nothing more to do with photo-

graphs.

Mr. Goldsmith. MI. Mahoney left in April, 1959, is

that correct?

Ms • Goodpasture. Pardon me?

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Mr. Goldsmith. Mi. Mahoney left, according to this,

roughly in April, 1959.

Ms. Goodpasture. That is approximate. I am not sure

of the date.

Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.

However, you continued working in this particular

capacity through 1964. Is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Only when the other people were away,

met someone outside. That was the function of the alternate

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Mr. Goldsmith, What was Thomas Keehan's responsibility

in regards to this project?

Ms. Goodpasture. He was a case officer.

Mr. Goldsmith. According to page 19, he served in that

capacity from June '63 until October '64, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think so.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you say case officer, you mean

case

officer with regard to the Soviet Embassy photosurveil-

lance coverage?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it true that when Thomas Keehan

received the materials from the photosurveillance operation

he would turn them over, either to you or to Herbert Minell?

Ms. Goodpasture. He sometimes brought the photographs

in to me and I gave them to Herb Minell. On other occasions,

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MI. Goldsmith. Is it true that Keehan's responsibility

in this area was simply to do the leg work on the project,

that he himself was not really in charge of the project?

Ms. Goodpasture. Nl, he managed the projects also. He

had complete supervision of the projects, as well as the lẹg

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The production, the material that was produced as a

result of the project, was not his responsibility. That was

MI. Minnel's.

Mr. Goldsmith, Who was involved in setting the require-

ments on policies with regard to the running of the project?

Ms. Goodpasture, Tom Keehan,

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you certain that the person respon-

sible for that was not yourself?

Ms. Goodpasture. Pardon me?

MI. Goldsmith. Are you certan that you were not

responsible for setting those requirements and policies?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Are you referring to asking people

to asking for coverage over a specific investigation?

MI. Goldsmith. My question is directed towards whether

you were involved in a supervisory capacity with setting the

requirements and policies as to how the photosurveillance

operation would be run.

Ms. Goodpasture. I talked to him about it, but this

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was his sole responsibility at the time. He was the case

officer for the project.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it true that, because of the sensi-

tivity of the photosurveillance operation at the Soviet

Embassy that Winn Scott felt that you were the person who

should run this operation?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not think I heard that statement

before. He did not want too many people involved in it

because of the sensitivity and he asked me to review the photo-

graphs to make sure that the outside people did not become

sloppy in the photographic work.

MI. Goldsmith. Nevertheless, did Winn Scott place you

in a supervisory capacity with regard to this project?

Ms. Goodpasture. No. I never saw anything in writing

that referred to me as supervising the activities of that

project.

Mr. Goldsmith. If not in writing,nevertheless, informally

did winn Scott designate you as the person who would be super-

vising that project?

Ms: Goodpasture:

He may have said informally, I want

you to make sure that those operations are run properly, or

something like that, but I do not think he did. I do not

recall him doing that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it true that Mr. Keehan was the most

junior officer in the station in 1963?

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Ms. Goodpasture.

That he was what?

Mr.Goldsmith. The most junior officer. He had less

seniority than anybody else in 1963.

Ms. Goodpasture. Agewise, he probably was;

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it also true that the Soviet opera-

tion, in terms of surveillance of the Soviet Embassy, was an

extremely sensitive operation?

Ms. Goodpasture, It was not any more sensitive than

the other operations which Mr. Keehan was handling.. In fact,

Mr. Keehan was probably the person most trusted by Winn

Scott.

MI. Goldsmith, I do not believe that the answer is

responsive to my question, though,

Is it true that the Soviet Embassy surveillance opera

tion was one of the most sensitive operations that was in

effect in Mexico City in 1963?

Ms• Goodpasture. I doubt it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you characterize that operation

as extremely sensitive?

Ms. Goodpasture. Pardon me?

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you characterize that surveil-

lance operation as extremely sensitive?

Ms. Goodpasture. It was - I would characterize it as

sensitive to the extent that the Chief of Station did not want

the photographs disseminated and the sourte identified, for

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that reason it was considered sensitive. But every project

that we had was also considered sensitive that involved a

source who would be in jeopardy if they were identified.

Mr. Goldsmith. If Mr. Keehan were to say that his

responsibility with regard to that project was simply to do

the legwork on it and not to act in a supervisory capacity,

would he be telling us the truth?

Ms. Goodpasture. When he first came there --

Mr.

Goldsmith. I believe that calls for a yes or no

answer.

Ms. Goodpasture. I am trying to figure out why someone

would make a statement of that type. He felt, I am sure, as

a young officer that he was only doing the legwork, but so

was I. Because the person who made the decisions was the

Chief of Station and his deputy, and they had the remainder

of the people in the station do the legwork, the running

around, meeting the agents, but when it came to make decisions

they made the big decisions, but I did not make any decisions

over Iom Keehan's work, if that is what you are

getting at.

MI. Goldsmith. With regards to this particular surveil-

lance operation, did you make the decisions on it, or did

Keehan make the decisions on it?

Ms. Goodpasture. He made the decisions on it. As far

as management of the project was concerned -

Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Goodpasture, what wàs the procedure

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for getting the photographic film from the photography

surveillance site to the station?

Ms. Goodpasture. It was picked up at intervals by

meetings with the person outside.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long did it take?

Ms. Goodpasture. There, again, my memory is faulty.

I think that it was picked up once of twice or three times a

week.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was done with it once it was picked

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MI. Goldsmith.

What was done with it once it was picked

up?

What was done with the photographic tape once it was

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MI. Goldsmith.

Right.

Ms, Goodpasture.

It was brought into the station and

distributed to the people who took action on that product,:

Mr, Goldsmith. Before it was distributed to the people

in the station, was it developed?

Ms, Goodpasture. Yes, it was developed.

Mr. Goldsmith. It would be picked up, you think,

approximately three times a week, It wouldbe taken somewhere

for processing and development and they would take it to the

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station and distribute it. Is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture, Right.

MI. Goldsmith. How long did this overall process take?

Ms:. Goodpasture.

My guess would be about a week from

the time that the film was exposed, but some of the film

might only be two days old or three days old.

In the roll of film, it would cover a period of one,

two or three days, so that the last day's coverage on the

film would be more recent than the first part of the film.

MI, Goldsmith. Would you give the panel your evaluation

of the efficiency of the photosurveillance operation?

Ms: Goodpasture. Well, I think that it generally was

very good as far as the coverage was concerned. . If we asked

them to get a photograph of the events that occurred between

9:00 and 10:00 on such and such a date, they usually produced

the photographs for that period,

MI. Goldsmith. What if they were not specifically asked

to focus on a person, as a matter of routine?

How thorough

was the coverage?

Ms. Goodpasture. They covered the categories that we

asked the for on a routine basis, which was to identify any

people who appeared to be non-latin and any Soviets.

Mr. Goldsmith, I understand that was the purpose.

Given that purpose, how thorough was the coverage?

Ms: Goodpasture. I think it was accuzate.:

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Mr. Goldsmith. Was Winn Scott satisfied with the

performance of the photo operation at the Soviet Embassy?

Ms. Goodpasture.

To the best of my knowledge he was.

MI: Goldsmith, I would now like you to refer to page

20 of the document that you have before you in Stack A-3.

Seven lines from the bottom in the middle of the page, it says

"However."

Ms. Goodpasture.

Wait a minute.

(Pause):

MI. Goldsmith. Seven lines from the bottom, starting

with the word "However," I would like for you to read that.

Ms. Goodpasture. The last.

Mr. Goldsmith, "However, here again, there was." That

is what I am referring to. Just read that section please.

(Pause)

Is the information contained in that section starting

with "However" until the end of that page, accurate?

Ms. Goodpasture, Io the best of my knowledge it is,

but I am not so sure whether or not the cameras used a

separate roll of film for each day after the assassination or

before. I think it was after the assassination. That part

right here is not clear.

The reason I say it was after that period, because if

you will look at the log of the film that occurred in October

you will note more than one day on thatroll of film.

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Mr. Goldsmith. After the photos were taken, to the

station, were they reviewed? were the photographs reviewed?

Ms. Goodpasture. After they came into the station?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms • Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. who reviewed them?

Ms. Goodpasture. I

glanced at them and then I gave then

to Herb Minell and he studied them, and if I was looking for

something at the request of Mr. Scott, if he came down and

asked me to go over the photographs for such and such a

period, then I studied them more carefully.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review, did you give all of

the photographs from the photosurveillance operation of the

Soviet Embassy to Mr. Minell?

Ms, Goodpasture. Yes. I routed them and then they

went to the file where they were kept, but he had access to

all of them.

Mr. Goldsmith. If Mr. Minell were to have said that

he received only those particular phatographs from the Embassy!

operation that you regarded to be of significance, would he

be telling us the truth?

Ms, Goodpasture. I think he would, I think he is

referring -- the photographs came in and there was a contact

print on one sheet of paper, also, of those photographs, of

those cases, where we asked them to look for people who had

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car license plate or Inew Soviets who had not been there

before or people who were not Latins.

They gave us a 3 x 5 photograph with them in addition to

the sheet, and those 3 x 5 photographs were always given to

Mr. Minell to use or to identify the new Soviets or to stait

files to try to

identify the others. But that was separate

from the file copy, so that may have been what he was

referring to.

Mr. Goldsmith. He was given photographs of significance.

Was he also

given all of the photographs of the Embassy?

Ms, Goodpasture. Yes. He was shown all of the photo-

graphs that came, He retained, for his use, the 3 % 5 photo-

graphs; but all the photogiaphs were routed to him.

Mr. Goldsmith, At this time, MI. Chairman, I would

like to break for any questions that the Conmittee might have.

Mr. Preyer. I believe we would prefer to complete

the testimony before asking questions.

MI. Goldsmith. I would like to turn now to the photo-

graphic surveillance operation of the Cuban Embassy and

consulate.

What responsibilities, if any, did you have with regard

to that particular operation?

Ms, Goodpasture. At the time, in 1963, none.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did you have responsibilities with

regard to that operation?

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Ms. Goodpasture, When they were first working on the

Cuban Embassy, they asked me if I would help them with the

photographs. I do not remember the exact time now.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many cameras were in operation

surveilling the Cuban Embassy and consulate?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know.

I am not sure. I

tried to speculate on that, but I am just not sure.

MI. Goldsmith. If you had to estimate, what answer

would you give?

Ms. Goodpasture. I thought that there were two, but

I did not know if they were at the consulate entrance or the

main gate.

Mr. Goldsmith. In September and October, 1963, at what

times were the Cuban Embassy and consulate under photo-sur-

veillance?

Ms, Goodpasture. What is that?

Mr. Goldsmith. In September and October of 1963, at

what times was the Cuban Embassy and consulate under photo-

surveillance?

Ms: Goodpasture. I do not know. I think the cameras

were malfunctioning during thatperiod, but I am not sure

right now the exact dates, but it should be in the record.

MI.. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, during that

period, what times would there have been coverage?

Ms. Goodpasture. My guess would be that it would be the

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same as the Soviets when the offices were opened, but it

would be up to their case officer as to what times he ordered

then to work, and the case officer, at that time, was Bob

Shaw.

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Me. Goldsmith, In the case of the Cuban Embassy and

consulate, what was the procedure for

getting the photographic

film from the surveillance site to the station?

Ms. Goodpasture, I think that it was similar to that

used for the Soviets, but I did not know the people who brought

it in. I did not bring it in.

MI, Goldsmith, By whom were the photographs reviewed?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think. Bob Shaw,

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review any of those photographs?

Ms. Goodpasture. Not unless they brought one to me to

just look at it and compare with somebody who may have gone

to the Soviet Embassy, which was the case of this controversial

photograph that we have.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you acting in an informal super-

visory capacity with regard to the surveillance operation?

Ms. Goldsmith, Mr. Shaw was in charge of thisoperation?

Ms, Goodpasture. I think Bob Shaw was in charge of that

operation.

Mr, Goldsmith. How many years had MI. Shaw been down at

the Mexico City station?

Ms:. Goodpasture.

I am not sure. It should be available

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from headquarters.

$63 to *65, I think. It is on page 18.

MI. Goldsmith. Now here-- according to

page 18 of this document, Mr. Shaw was Chief of Cuban

operations:

Ms, Goodpasture. I think Dave Phillips, I believe.

Mx. Goldsmith. You say that Mr. Phillips was the

Chief during this period. According to your document on page

18, you also indicate that Mr. Shaw was the Chief of Cuban

Operations.

Ms. Goodpasture. Because Mr. Phillips came down there,

Dave. Phillips was the covert action officer and then be was

placed in charge of Cuban operations, but Bob Shaw had

actually been there before, handling the Cuban operations,

and the other memorandum that you referred to was written when

I was trying -- and I said it had several errors in it,

but I remember that Bob. shaw was there working on Cuban

target. I did not know on what date when I wrote this when

Dave Phillips was named as. Chief,

MI. Goldsmith. When Phillips came down, did he replace

Bob Shaw as Chief of Cuban Operations?

Ms. Goodpasture, No, he was there before in another

capacity, then he was named to replace him.

M. Goldsmith. Turning to page 1l, according to page

19, under the section "Unilateral Photo,Cubans," it says that

during this period, Robert Zambernardi was in charge of the

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unilateral photo operations.

Ms : Goodpasture.

These were two photographers, but

they were not case officers. They processed the film.

Mr. Goldsmith. I see.

Ms. Coodpasture. They had no operational responsibility.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you able to evaluate the efficiency

of the Cuban photosurveillance operation?

Ms. Goodpasture. My guess would be that it was just as

efficient when it was operating as the Soviet one.

MI. Goldsmith. With regard to both the photos that were

obtained from the Cuban and the Soviet Embassy and consulates,

what happened to them after they were taken back to the

station and reviewed? Were they stored?

Ms. Goodpasture. They were stored in the main file,

chronological files.

MI. Goldsmith. During the period when Mr.. Scott was

there, were any of these photographs disposed of?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes. Some of the earlier photographs,

before we began to set up formal files in the late 195Q's were

not used.

During the period that we are talking about to the best

of my knowledge, in 1963, I do not believe any of the photo-

graphs were destroyed as long as MI. Scott was there.

MT. Goldsmith. How long were these photogiaphs retained?

Ms. Goodpasture. As far as I know, they were still there

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when I left in 1968.

Mr. Goldsmith, Are they there now, to your knowledge?

Ms. Goodpasture. Not all the photographs. A year ago

I could not locate all of them.

Mx. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, we are

now talking specifically about photographs taken in September

and October of 1963. Now, you just said that, a year ago,

you could not locate them... Did you go to Mexico City to

attempt to locate them?

Ms. Goodpasture.

NO.

Mr. Goldsmith. Where did you go to to attempt to locate

the photographs?

Ms. Goodpasture. I was

here in Washington and I looked

through the files, but we did send a cable to Mexico City,

In fact, we

sent two cables to them trying to locate the

photographs,

MI. Goldsmith. What was the response?

Ms. Goodpasture. They could not locate one page of the

photographs.

Mr. Goldsmith. I do not understand the answer.

They

were unable to locate one page?

MS, Goodpasture. One page. One page of photographs

they could not locate.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does that mean that all of the other

photographs they were able to locate?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Does that mean what? All of the

other photographs?

Yes. We located all of the other files

except for one.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember what time period the

page of photographs that you could not locate referred to?

Ms • Goodpasture:

Right offhand I do not remember, but

I wrote a memorandum for it, which should be in this group of

materials, a cover letter a year ago.

Mr. Goldsmith. Specifically with regard to the photo-

graphs that were taken in September and October, 1963, did

the information that you obtained from the Mexico City station

last year indicate that all but one page of those photographs

had been recovered and were available?

Ms, Goodpasture, Yes, to the best of my knowledge.

MI. Goldsmith. When you say "a page of photographs,"

what are you referring to?

Ms. Goodpasture. In a file which you showed me you

have a copy, it is a contact print of 35 mm. film on one

page.

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MI, Goldsmith. I think I know what you are referring

to.

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Ms: Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Galdsmith. By "a page," you mean a page that would

contain one of more contact prints on it.

Ms, Goodpasture. It would contain contact prints from

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one roll of 35mm. film. The film we had, but it was that

contact print that was in the original files that we could

not locate.

Mr. Goldsmith. You still had the film?

Ms. Goodpasture. The negatives were avaihable.

Mx. Goldsmith.

In that case, what is available from

the Mexico City station are

all of the photographs, all of

the photographic negatives or contact prints from the pictures

that were taken at the Soviet and Cuban Embassies and consul

ates in september and October in 1963, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were these materials sent to head-

quarters last year?

Ms. Goodpasture. No, I do not think the material we

could not locate was ever sent to headquarters. I think it

was destroyed in the field.

But the other film, all of the negatives concemed in

this photograph had been sent to headquarters before I began

to look for it last year.

It came up in about 1968 or '69 when certain files

wEre

sent to headquarters,

Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, is it

true that available at headquarters or the Mexico City station

are either the contact prints or the negatives of all of the

pictures that were taken at the Cuban and Soviet Embassy and

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consulate?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes,

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it also true that available in regard

to these materials are the photoproduction lines that are

maintained?

Ms. Goodpasture. With the one exception that I

mentioned, the others are all aväilable.

Mr, Goldsmith.

Are you saying that there was not a

production log with regard to the contact prints?

Ms. Goodpasture, Right.

Mr. Goldsmith, The others were all available from the

Cuban and Soviet Embassy and consulates, is that right?

Ms: Goodpasture. Correct.

MI. Goldsmith. I would like now to turn to the area of

the electionic surveillance operation of the Cuban and

Soviet Embassies and consulates.

How many wiretap operations were in effect with respect

to these embassies and consulates in September and October of

1963?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Do you mean how many lines were

covered, or how many projects did we have? When you say

operations, you are referring to unilateral, not a lateral?

MI. Goldsmith, Let's first

talk about the projects.' How

many projects were there?

Ms. Goodpasture. We had one that we ran independently

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and one that was a liaison project.

Mr. Goldsmith.

The one that was run independently was

referred to as the unilateral project?

Ms • Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the one that was run

independently, how many taps did you have in operation

with regard to phones at the Soviet Embassy and consulate?

Ms . Goodpasture.

'On the unilateral one?

MI. Goldsnith. Yes.

Ms, Goodpasture. I would have to guess without checking

the files,

MI. Goldsmith. I am just asking for an estimate.

Ms. Goodpasture.. I think - I do not think that there

was any coverage of the Soviets on the unilateral in September

1963. I think all of that was on the liaison. On the Cubans!

I think there were one or two lines,

MI. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, again

we are now talking about the period September-October, 1963.

Turning to the ljaison project, how many taps were in effect

at the Soviet Embassy?

Ms. Goodpasture, I believe there were five.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you follow whose phones?

Ms , Goodpasture. Do I recall -

Mr. Goldsmith, On whose phones,

Ms, Goodpasture, Phones?

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Mr. Goldsmith.:

Which phones were selected for wire-

tapping purposes?

Ms . Goodpasture.

There was the Chancellory phone, the

Cultural Office. I would have to check the transcripts to be

sure •

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The military office was also covered.

Mr. Goldsmith. By whom was the liaison project

coordinated?

I will try to speak up and speak more clearly. In any

event, before I get to the question that I just asked you,

how many phones were tapped at the Cuban Embassy and consulate?

Ms. Goodpasture.

The Cuban Embassy, four or five.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall which phones? To the best

of your memory, which phones were taped in the Cuban --

Ms, Goodpasture. Four or five.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall which ones?

Ms Goodpasture, Which ones?

Not by memory, but I

listed them all a year ago when I reviewed the transcripts,

so there is a list of all the films that were covered at that

time in the records,

Mr. Goldsmith, Did the Mexicans have any unilateral

coverage with regard to the Soviet and Cuban embassies?

Ms. Goodpasture. The project was joint. They had the

same coverage that we had

MI. Goldsmith. To your knowledge, is it possible that

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they, themselves, had a unilateral project? It is possible,

but if they had coverage - which I am sure they probably did

have - but they shared with us the coverage from the joint

project.

MI. Goldsmith. What were your responsibilities with

regard to the wiretapping operations?

Ms. Goodpasture, Legwork and maangement.

Mr, Goldsmith. By management, what do you mean?

Ms. Goodpasture. I recorded all the correspondence,

getting the money, paying the people who did the work, making

sure that the machinery was functioning, picking up all of

the transcripts and supervising most of the people involved

with it, except for the Mexicans.

MI. Goldsmith. In addition to electronic surveillance

ofna wiretapping nature, were there any "bugs" planted in the

Cuban or Soviet Embassy and consulate?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think there were, but I do not have

firsthand knowledge of them. I think that the best person

to give you the best information on that would be the Cuban

case officers, We never put anything in the Soviet Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. If you did, would there have been a

transcript made of the conversations that were overheard?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would those transcripts still be on

record at the agency

today?

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Ms. Goodpasture. They should be.

MI. Goldsmith, You indicated earlier, I believe, that

there was a list available of the Cuban phones that were

covered by the electronic surveillance operation, is that

correct?

Ms. Goodpasture.. That there was -

Mr. Goldsmith. You indicated earlier that you either

saw or prepared a list of the phones that were covered by the

surveillance project at the Cuban Embassy and consulate?

Ms: Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know where that list is today?

Ms. Goodpasture. It should be in your records.

MI. Goldsmith. Why do you say it should be?

Ms • Goodpasture.

I was told that you had a copy of

all the transcripts and, with those transcripts, there was

list of the lines that were covered, both Cuban and Soviet.

Mr, Goldsmith. In addition to the electronic surveil-

lance both of a wiretap and of a bugging nature, did the

Mexico City station have any penetration agents at the Cuban

Embassy?

Ms, Goodpasture. I am not sure about the Cuban Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did the Mexico City station have any

penetration agents at the soviet Embassy and consulate?

Ms: Goodpasture. No.

MI. Goldsmith. Are you certain about that answer?

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Pardon me?

Mr, Goldsmith,

Are you certain that there were no

CIA penetration agents?

Ms. Goodpasture. To the best ofimy knowledge, there

were none at the Soviet Embassy. If there were, I did not

know about them.

MI. Goldsmith. Your answer is the same for the Cuban

Embassy?

Ms, Goodpasture.

The Cuban Embassy, I do not know,

because the Cuban Embassy had locals employed and there were

assets in touch with some of those, locals by the case

officer for the Cuban operations who would be the only person

who would know about that. It is not in the records.

Mr, Goldsmith, Fine.

Turning to the scope of coverage, at what times were

these lines under electronic surveillance.

Ms, Goodpasture. I think that the equipent was

activated when a telephone conversation took placelon the

liaison lines,

Mr, Goldsmith, It would be automatically activated?

Ms • Goodpasture, Yes.

MI, Goldsmith. Therefore it would not be limited just

to working hours?

Ms, Goodpasture. Yes, or whenever a call occurrec.

Mr. Goldsmith. You indicated earlier when you attempted

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to locate the photograhpic materials in Mexico City there

was one contact page missing, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture.

There is a log missing and a page

of contact prints -

Mr. Goldsmith, - is missing.

Do you recall what period in September, October of

'63 that page pertained to?

(Pause)

Are you able to find what you are looking for?

Ms. Goodpasture. There is a memo which I wrote on it.

You should have a copy of it, and I am not sure what date it

is. I thought it was in the papers that you showed me

yesterday.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let me see if I can help you.

If you turn to the materials in Stack A, I think Stack

A-2, is this what you are referring to? Because that is

the only other document pertaining to this area that I showed

you yesterday.

Ms• Goodpasture. A-2.

MI. Goldsmith. I am

referring to Stack A-2. Is this

the document that you referred to which would indicate which

contact page was missing?

Ms • Goodpasture.

There is another one in which I

mentioned that the folders had been reused. No, it is in this

one.

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Please take the time to look through

this document and see if you can find which contact print

for what period is missing.

Ms• Goodpasture.

Right.

(Pause)

Mr. Goldsmith. If you are unable to find that at this

time, perhaps we could pursue it later, It would be best

to continue with the inquiry.

Ms• Goodpasture. Here it is, on page 4.

Mr. Goldsmith. Where specifically on page 4?

Ms, Goodpasture. The files contained the photographs

for the period. 2. May '67 to 30 : of June '67 were in

a folder that had been used, that was marked to hold files

from the period 23 July '63. until 30 November '63.

MI. Goldsmith. Let us see if we can get this straight.

First of all, even though the contact prints would not

be available, the original negatives still would be. That

is correct, is it not?

Ms. Goodpasture. The log for this one base, this one

photographic source, was not available,

MI, Goldsmith.

The original negatives would still be

available?

Ms • Goodpasture:

The negatives are available and the

original photographs are available because they were sent to

Washington, But this file was destroyed, I suppose accidentally.

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Mr. Goldsmith. All that is missing is the log and the

contact print?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right, which would have been

in that file.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying, then, that the 10g

that was kept of the photographs taken during this period,

the entire log from July 23rd '63 to November 30 '63 is no

longer available?

Ms. Goodpasture. Could not be locatedaa year ago.

We were trying to locate it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did this pertain to the Cuban or Soviets?

Ms, Goodpasture. Soviets.

Now, another source that made photographs at the same

time, their logs are avalable for the same period.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure I am following. What

are you getting at?

Ms. Goodpasture. That there were three bases, there

were two of those bases that photographed this unidentified

man o

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Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms, Goodpasture.

well, the logs are not available from

one of those bases but from the other, it is, that you have.

Mr. Goldsmith. When we say the production logs and

the contact prints. for this period are missing, that refers

to only one of the three photo sites that were in operation

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at that time,

Ms, Goodpasture.

That is right.

The third photo site never photographed that man because

he did not appear in the area.

Mr. Goldsmith. We do not know whether they did or did

not, since we do not have the production log.

Ms. Goodpasture.

We do not have the photographs from

that third source again,

Mr. Goldsmith. Getting back to he wiretap operation

how long did it take for the information that was obtained by

the surveillance operation to reach you at the Mexico City

station?

Ms, Goodpasture.. I generally picked it up early in the

moming after the day on which conversation was made.

Mr. Goldsmith. What would you pick up at that time?

Ms Goodpasture. I picked up copies of the transcripts.

Mr. Goldsmith, So, just take one day. To have the

tape transcribed --

Ms• Goodpasture. In most cases, because the transcribers

with the Spanish texts worked at the same place where the

recording machinery was.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you say you picked it up, from whom

did you pick up the transcripts?

Ms. Goodpasture. From an outside agent.:

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us get into this procedure in a bit

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more detail.

There would be a

tape recording made, is that correct?

Ms• Goodpasture. A what?

Mr. Goldsmith. A tape recording of the conversation

would be made, is that correct?

Ms:• Goodpasture.

Yes&

"Mr. Goldsmith. How would that tape recording actually

get to the transcribers, or translaters?

Ms. Goodpasture. The transcribers, or the transcrip-

tions that I picked up, the transcribers were working at the

same place with the Spanish text. If the language were other

than Spanish, it would have to be taken to another location

to be transcribed. The material that was picked up the day

after the date on which it occurred was in the Spanish

language, normally.

Mr. Goldsmith. If the conversation was in Russian,

would it be taken to MI. Boris Tarasoff for translation?

Ms i Goodpasture, That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Routinely, how long did it take Mr.

Tarasoff to make the translation?

Ms. Goodpasture. It depended on his backlog, but

generally it was a delay of a day or two.

Mr. Goldsmith. In cases of Russian translations, would

It be fair to say that generally you woutd receive a transcript

within three or four days?of the time that the conversations

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were made?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Ms. Goldsmith. Do you know who took the tapes to Mr.

Tarasoff for transcription?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, the same man who brought them

to me, the outside agent of the liaison project.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was that individual.

Ms, Goodpasture. His name was Flick.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was there anybody else besides Mr.

Flick that was responsible?

Ms, Goodpasture,

Herbert Minell.

Mr. Goldsmith. I believe I asked you yesterday to

describe ME. Flick and you described him as looking like me.

Are you able to give a more definite description today of

MI. Flick?

Ms, Goodpasture. Well, he looks like an All-American

boy-

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Mx Goldsmith. Thank you.

This Mr. Flick was approximately 5 feet six inches tall?

Ms • Goodpasture.

He seemed taller than that to me.

MI. Goldsmith.

How old was he in 1963?

Ms, Goodpasture.

He must have been about 45 and if I

missed it by a few years, he probably would not like it.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Once the transcripts were brought. to

you, would you review all of them?

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Ms, Goodpasture. Not always because they were routed

to the people who took the action on them, and in the case

of some of those transcripts, there was a stack about an

inch or so thick, and if you took the time to read

them, then

the people who had to take the action on them did not

get to

see them, so I generally took them and passed them out.

MI. Goldsmith. Would you review most of them?

Ms. Goodpasture. I had more than one copy so I could

look at them, if there was something of significance,

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that I am following you.

As a matter of routine you would review it, or would you

pass it along?

Ms. Goodpasture. I would pass it along, first. I kept

one copy myself for files and I had access to that copy.

Mr. Goldsmith.: In the case of transcripts from the

Soviet compound, they would

I go to Mr. Minell, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right,

Mr. Goldsmith.

From the Cuban compound, it would go

to whom?

Ms Goodpasture. It went to Bob Shaw:

MI. Goldsmith. Or Dave Phillips?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Or Dave Phillips.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long were the tapes maintained?

Ms. Goodpasture. About two weeks,

MI. Goldsmith. What happened to the tapes after the two-

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week period?

Ms. Goodpasture. They were erased and reused.

Mr. Goldsmith. They would be erased for the purpose

of reuising, did you say?

Ms• Goodpasture:

Yes"

Mr. Preyer. Let me interrupt counsel. That is our

second bell, We have to go to the Floor to answer the quorum

call, Miss Goodpasture has been at it quite awhile now, so

I suggest that we take about a ten-minute recess at this

time.

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We will recess for about ten minutes.

(A brief recess was taken,) i

Mr. Preyer. The Committee will resume when counsel is

ready to resume his questions.

MI, Goldsmith. Miss Goodpasture, getting back to the

area of the wiretap operations of the Cuban and Soviet

embassies, would you indicate to the Committee in what manner

the photosurveillance and the wiretap operations were tied

into each other?

Ms, Goodpasture. On a wiretap operation, if we got

information that someone was

going to one of those places far

in advance, we would notify the people taking the photographs

to try to get pictures of them.

That was one way we were tied in, Another way we were

tied in was if we saw where a person had been there at such.

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and such a time, we would check back to see if there was

a photograph made during that period and if there was any

way that that person could be identified.

Mr. Goldsmith. Similarly, if there was a tape-recording

made of a conversation and from. the conversation it became

apparent that the person at issue was either at one of the

embassies or was

going to go to one of the embassies, it would

be possible, would it not, to go to the photo-production logs

and determine who that person was?

Ms. Goodpasture.

We could determine if there was a

photograph there and if the photograph appeared to be the same

person that came up on the wiretap.

Now, there might be someone speaking. English and the only

photograph that we had was someone that was obviously a Latin

whom we knew who did not speak English. We could rule him out!

as being the person who made the call. i

MI. Goldsmith. In what manner would this procedure take

place if you knew that someone was either going to the Embassy

of that he was there at a particular time? How would you go

about checking to see if you had a photograph of that person?

Ms. Goodpasture. If we knew afterwards that he had been

there?

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Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. We would take the coverage for that day,

look at it, and see if he was there.

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Mr. Goldsmith. You would not confine yourself just to

a specific time that day? You would examine the entire day's

coverage?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

The log was prepared in such a

way that they listed the time and the description of the

person who went there.

Mr. Goldsmith. I bélieve earlier you testified as a

matter of routine, the photo-surveillance operations would

take pictures of foreigners -- in other words, a non-Mexican

and of Soviet or Cuban personnel, is that true?

Ms. Goodpasture. Soviet, yes. Well, I do not know

about the Cubans, but I can say that for sure for the Soviets.

Mr. Goldsmith. They would take the photograph of some-

one who did not fit that category if they were given notice

in advance that someone happened to be of interest, is that

correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

(Pause)

Mr. Preyer. We have another vote on the House Floor.

I suggest that we take another moment while I

go over and

vote. We will recess for about five minutes.

(A brief recess was taken.)

MI. Preyer. The Committee will resume.

You may resume questioning.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you.

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Miss Goodpasture, who would give notice to the photo-

surveillance units to take a picture of a particular individual.

Ms. Goodpasture. Would you repeat that, please?

Mr. Goldsmith. Certainly.

Let us assume that it is decided that a particular

individual is important and should be photographed.

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith, Who would give notice to the photo-

surveillance units of.that fact?

Ms. Goodpastre, The case officer handling the project.

That would have been Tom Keehan.

Mr. Goldsmith. Assuming, for example, that one of the

people monitoring the wiretap operation picked up a conversa-

tion that the person regarded to be significant and in that

conversation it became apparent that something was of interest.

Would it be standard procedure for that person to call

directly to the photo-surveillance sites?

Ms. Goodpasture. No, because that person did not know

any of the people onducting the photo-surveillance. Now I

think in the case of the unilateral operation which was

also handled unilaterally, wiretap operation, it was also

handled by Tom Keehan. I am not sure if they would contact

the photo people or not, but my people could not contact the

photo people. They would have to come in to me and I would

write a note, give it to Tom, and Iom went out and notified

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the photo people.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long would it take for notice to

be given?

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, the length of time that it would

take to call somebody and locate them and talk to them,

normally we did not give them that information on the telephone.

It could be one day, two days, or three days.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would it be possible for the individual

monitoring the telephone conversation to call his case officer

directly, or to call you directly?

Ms. Goodpasture. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. To call the case officer directly and

then for the case officer to immediately contact the photo-

surveillance operations and tell them to take a picture. of

a particular individual?

Ms. Goodpasture. In the case of Iom Keehan's operation,

it would, but in the case of the ones I handled, it would

not. They had to go through the person whom I met outside,

then he got in touch with me and I gave the notice to Tom

and Tom took it to his people.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are drawing a distinction now between

the operations Keehan handled and those which you handled.

What is the distinction you are making? Which operations did

he handle?

Ms. Goodpasture. He handled the unilateral telephone

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operations.

MI. Goldsmith. You handled?

Ms. Goodpasture. The liaison and the agents in the

unilateral operation and the agents in the liaison operation

did not know each other, to the best of our knowledge, were

not aware of each other's operations.

MI. Goldsmith. We may have covered this before, however

I would like to clarify this point in terms of the photo

production logs from the surveillance operations from the

Cuban Embassy and consulate and Soviet Embassy and consulate.

Those materials were all available the last time you knew

with the exception of that particular contact page, and the

photoproduction page pertaining to that contact page, is

that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. You mean available now?

Mr. Goldsmith. Right.

Ms, Goodpasture. They are available, yes. That is

correct.

MI. Goldsmith. On the transcripts that were made of

the telephone conversations, would the transcript have an

indication of the telephone line that was being tapped?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. And the location of the telephone?

In

other words, the Soviet Embassy, Cuban Embassy?

Ms. Goodpasture. There would be a cryptonym which would

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identify it.

MI. Goldsmith. It would also give the time of the

telephone call, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture:

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like now to get into the area

of the relationship between the Agency's surveillance opera-

tions and Lee Harvey Oswald.

In that regard, I would like to draw your attention to

Stack B. I believe it is going to be handed to you right

now, Miss Goodpasture.

(Pause)

I would like you to refer to page 1 in Stack B.

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mt. Goldsmith. Can you identify this document?

Ms. Goodpasture. This looks like a copy of the trans-

cript, a xerox copy of the transcript.

MI. Goldsmith. Would you please read the content of

this first page, the person that is marked off starting by

line 151 or starting with the line designated in the left

151.

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Ms: Goodpasture. Are you referring to the last lines?

Mr. Goldsmith. No. I am refering to the middle of the

page, in the lefthand column, where it says number 151.

Ms. Goodpasture: 151. That is the space on the tape

where this conversation took place. If that tape were put on

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the same machine that it was recorded on and started at o,

this would come up on 151. It would not apply on any other

machine or starting at any other number.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read the conversation that

follows immediately next to 151.

(Pause)

What does the designation "MO" signify?

Ms. Goodpasture. Man outside.

MI. Goldsmith. Does that mean a man outside making a

phonecall inside?

Ms. Goodpasture. That means that this telephone call,

that. it was a man from outside of where the telephone was

who called in.

MI. Goldsmith. Fine.

Is it possible to tell fron page 1 at approximately what

time this call came in? I will direct your attention to the

top of the page, of page 1.

Ms. Goodpasture. I know. I am looking for - it was

sometime after 9:55.

Mr. Goldsmith. The upper righthand portion of this

page indicates that the call came in on October 1, 1963, is

that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

MI. Goldsmith. At the bottom of the page there is some

writing in script, cursive. I draw your attention to that at

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this point.

Ms. Goodpasture. It is a number for the Russian Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Which would be the number for the

Russian Embassy, 15-16-55?

Ms. Goodpasture, Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What do the other numbers signify?

Ms. Goodpasture. The other numbers refer to numbers

that were used on the machine doing the recording.

Mr. Goldsmith. The number 0921-1320. What does that

Ms. Goodpasture. The hours that were covered on that

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reel.

Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Goodpasture, when did the informa-

tion contained in this transcriptifirst come to your atten-

tion?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Probably the day after it was recorded.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Was that the first time that Lee Harvey

Oswald came to your attention?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith:

What action, if any, did you take upon

receiving this information?

Ms: Goodpasture. What action?

Mr. Goldsmith, Right. How did you respond to receiving!

this ifnormation?

Ms. Goodpasture, Well, the tape, the reel, was taken

to the Russian transcriber. Now I am not sure whether that

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man who brought me the conversation took the reel to the

transcriber, or whether Herb Minell did, but normally, one

of the other would carry the reel out to the Russian trans-

criber.

Mr. Goldsmith.

So, when you say that this information

first came to your attention a day or two after the conversa-

tion was made w..

Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying that you received the

conversation in its original form in Russian?

„Ms. Goodpasture." No, Irreceived a transcript..

Mr. Goldsmith. Did the transcript --

Ms. Goodpasture. Which said there was a call made. It

was a Spanish transcript and in Spanish, it said there was a

call being made by a man who was trying to speak Russian and

gave the name Oswald, I believe. I do not happen to have a

copy, but you should have a copy of it.

MI. Goldsmith, This transcript was taken to MI. Tara-

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Ms • Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time you actually

saw the Russian translation of the conversation?

Ms. Goodpasture, Pardon me?

Mr. Goldsmith.. When was the first time that you actually

saw the conversation after it had been translated from Russian

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into English?

Ms. Goodpasture. Probably when I got a file copy back

from Herb Minnel, within a few days after this, but I do not

know the exact date right off.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was your response at that point,

if any?

Ms. Goodpasture. A cable was sent to Headquarters

by Mrs; Minell.

MI. Goldsmith. Did you direct Mrs. Minell to send a

cable to headguarters?

Ms. Goodpasture.: No, I did not, because Mr. Minell was

my superior. He would have been directed by the Chief - I

say he was my superior. He outranked me in grade.

Mt. Goldsmith. Who sent the cable, Mr. or Mrs. Minell?

Ms: Goodpasture. His wife, but he had his own section

and he had a separate section from the one I was in. We did

not direct each other. We might have suggested it, but he

took his orders from the Chief of Station.

MI. Goldsmith. Did you suggest to Mrs. Minell--

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not remember whether I did or

not:

I may have.

""..

MI. Goldsmith. Did you, or anyone else, check the

transcripts that were obtained from the Soviet Embassy from

September 28th?

Ms. Goodpasture.

I do not. think I checked them at that

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MI. Goldsmith. The significance of the question is as

follows. Drawing your attention to the third line after the

number 151, it says: "Hello. This is lee Oswald speaking.

I was at your place last Saturday."

Well, October I, 1963 was a Tuesday, the 28th was a

Saturday. I am wondering whether anyone went back to check

onthe transcripts of telephone conversations on that day or

the photo-production materials for that day?

Ms. Goodpasture. Theonly indication of the name was

from the telephone transcripts.

MI. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. On that day. That was when we first

found out that he was there.

MI. Goldsmith. On October ist, you found out that

Oswald had been at the Russian Embassy the preceding Saturday.

Was any effort made to check your materials from the surveil-

lance operation, the photographic surveillance operation, or

fron the telephonic surveillance operation to

get additional

information on this?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know whether I checked it

immediately or not at this stage. I do know that they were

checked thoroughly after the assassination, In fact, I

think they were checked thoroughly after the information

came

back from Washington identifying a Lee Oswald. The files were

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checked at that time to find out if we had any record of a

person named Lee or a person named Oswald.

Mx. Goldsmith. Fine. Let!'s stay to this time period

for a moment, however.

Would it have not been

i standard operating procedure if

the transcript refers to a person who appeared at the Embassy

a few days earlier, would it not have been standard operating

procedure for either you or someone else in the Mexico City

station to check your records from that earlier day, September

28th, to see if, in fact, you had a photograph of this person

or another tape recording of his voice?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think that it would have been stan-

dard practice to have done

a file check on him.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is the answer to my question yes?

Ms. Goodpasture. To check the record files to see if

we have a record of that name previously, but to check back

on the transcripts, I did not process the transcripts from

the Soviet Embassy as such. Whether Mr. Minell or Mrs. Minell

went back and reviewed those again at that time, I do not

know •

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Mr. Goldsmith. The text of this conversation includes,

in brackets, what apparently is an insertion by the transla-

tor.

He says the same person who phoned a day or so ago and

spoke in broken Russian.

In light of that statement by the translator, in light

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of that statement by the person who identifies himself as

oswald that he, Oswald, had been there Saturday and the trans-

lator was saying that this person had phoned a day or so

ago, would it not have been standard operating procedure to

have checked?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes, I think it would have.

MI. Goldsmith. The photo materials and the wiretap

materials?

Ms. Goodpasture. Right. Also, it would have been done

automatically in the base by the Mexicans.

Mx. Goldsmith. Fine.

At that time, was any photograph found of Lee Harvey

Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture. The only photograph that was located

no, not of oswald. We had no photograph of him.

Mr. Goldsmith. At that time, were you able to locate

the earlier tape recording containing a conversation involving

this same individual?

Ms. Goodpasture. I did not, but I do not know if the

Minell's put those taperecordings or not at that time. I

assume that they probably did. I know that they were put

together in November.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would now like you to refer to pages

2 and 3 in Stack B, and I ask you if you can identify what

these materials are.

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Ms . Goodpasture.

Page 2?

Mr. Goldsmith. Page 2 and 3 of the materials contained

in Stack B, 2 and 3, the next two pages.

Ms • Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Can you

identify these materials?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes. They also appear to be copies

of portions of the transcripts.

MI. Goldsmith, On what date was this conversation

transcribed? I withdraw that question. : Let me rephrase it,

please.

On what date, according to this document, did this

conversation take place?

Ms. Goodpasture. 28 September 1963.

MI. Goldsmith. What was the telephone that was the

source of this conversation?

Ms. Goodpasture. The Soviet Embassy. The conversation

was recorded on the Soviet Embassy telephone, It came in

from a woman from the consulate, the Cuban consulate.

Mr. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to the number 208

in the middle of the page, on the line adjacent to that.

number, it says, please see that the Spanish transcription,

it says "WO.". Does that stand for woman outside?

Ms. Goodpästure. That was written by Tarasoff.

Mx. Goldsmith. Right. That would indicate woman out-

side?

Telephone call from a woman outside?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Yes. When he prepared the transcripts,

he prepared them on a separate sheet of paper and he put them

in there so that the person would tie it in with the Spanish

transcript, and what they have done here is they cut off

the

top of the page, the transcript that Tarasoff did, and

pasted it to the Spanish transcripts,

MI. Goldsmith. Have you seen this particular document,

or a copy of it, before?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, my name is on it:

Mr. Goldsmith. Yourname appears in the upper right-

hand portion?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes:

Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that you saw

either this particular document, or a copy of it?

Ms. Goodpasture. Within a couplecof days after it

was transcribed.

Mr. Goldsmith. What action, if any, did you take in

response to seeing this particular document?

Ms. Goodpasture.. I do not think I took any. I think

Minell was the one who would have taken the action on this

MI. Goldsmith.. At the time that you received the

transcript containing the conversation of October Ist, do

you recall this earlier transcription of the conversation?

MS, Goodpasture. No, I do not think I did, because I

did not read all of these transcripts. When I brought them

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in, I passed them out, and the one on the 28th of September

would have gone automatically to MI. Minell. The one on

1 October, unless it was very unusual or my attention would

have been called to it, I would not have been doing an

analysis of them.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the Minells: linked

the two conversations together?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know.

Mx. Goldsmith. Did you or the Minell's check the.

photo production materials after seeing this particular

conversation?

Ms. Goodpasture. After seeing the name Lee Oswald, I

think that the photo production materials for that day had

not been received, as I recall, and a note was given to Tom

Keehan to go out and pick up the film for this period and

bring it in. The transcripts were usually received before

the photographs were.

MI. Goldsmith. At such timethat thephotographs were

received, did you or anyone else go to check the photoproduc

tion materials to see if you could idertify the individual?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mx.

Goldsmith.

Do you recall when that happened?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes. As I remember, we were waiting

for that material to come in, and when it came in, we looked

at it together and decided that there was one man who was not

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a Latin.

Mx. Goldsmith. This conversation came in at approxi-

mately 11:51 a.m., is that correct, on September 28th?

Ms. Goodpasture. This conversation was recorded at

1151 hours on the 28th. The 28th was on a Saturday. We

would have

gotten it probably on Monday, following the 28th.

Then it would have gone out to Mr. Tarasoff who would

have made a trnaslation from the Russian.

Mr. Goldsmith. You said that you waited to receive the

photographs and, upon receiving the photographs of production,

you checked these materials, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Upon checking the photograph of produc

tion from September 28th, did you find a photograph of Lee

Harvey Oswald?

Ms• Goodpasture. No.

MI. Goldsmith. Did you find a photograph of some other

North American appearing male?

Ms • Goodpasture.

we found a photograph of a non-latin,

a man who appeared to be a non-Latin,

Mr. Goldsmith. That photograph was taken on September

28, 1963, In other words, these are the production materials

you were checking?

Ms. Goodpasture. There were three sets, He appeared

on the 28th, I believe, and on the 2ndond. I am not sure it

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is in the logs, the date that the man appeared there.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, Saturday, September 28th, drawing

your attention to that day, would that have been a day when

the Embassy, either the Cuban Embassy or Russian Embassy,

would have been open?

Ms. Goodpasture. Not to the public, I do not think,

but somebody could have

gone there and rung the doorbell and

may have been received by the guard on duty.

Mr. Goldsmith. Saturday was not really a working day,

is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture.

NO.

MI. Goldsmith. I am a bit confused, now. Earlier in

your testimony I recall your indicating that the photo-surveil-

lance operation was coordinated with the working hours of the

embassies.

Here we have a situation where the embassies were

not working.

Ms, Goodpasture. I think the photograph was the 27th,

not the 28th. I made a mistake.

MI. Goldsmith. If I may finish, here we have a situation

where the photograph was taker on the 28th. This was a

Saturday If the photograph were taken on the 28th then, in

fact, the photo-surveillance operation was in effect on a

Saturday, which was a non-working day for the Cuban and

soviet embassies, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. If the photograph was made on the 28th,

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it was not a working day, a Saturday.. But the photo base

houses were places where people lived and if they saw some-

thing that they thought was unusual, they could make a pic-

ture anytime they wanted to and send it in. But they were

normally required to be on duty during the times when the

Embassy had working hours.

Does that explain it?

Mr. Goldsmith. That may explain it in part. I think

we should pursue this just a bit.

The photograph that you found of a person going to one

of these embassies was taken on September 28th, is that

correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. I would have to look at them to

see. Right now I am a little confused about that myself,

because this man appeared there several times, but we have

copies of those and the dates on them. I do not know if they

are here of not, but I went through the files that we had to

put those dates on.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am afraid that none of the materials

that yourand I reviewed yesterday pertained to September 28th

or even September 27th, so I am unable to show you any produc

tion materials for those two days.

Ms. Goodpasture. It was not the 28th. They are not

here. I guess it was on the 2nd of October that he appeared

the first time.

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Mr. Goldsmith. You are saying now that you are not

sure whether you found the photograph of September 28th?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not have them here, but I did

get all the photographs of that man, together with the dates

on them, which I think you have. When I was looking here on

this 28th transcript, I said 28th and what. I was thinking

was that when we checked the photographs for the days around

the time of the call, we found the photograph, but I do not

know what day it was now, right off the top of my head.

MI. Goldsmith. Did you find a photograph of just one

person who appeared to be North American in appearance?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith.

How many days' photogräphic surveillance

coverage did you review?

Ms• Goodpasture.

How many days?

Mr. Goldsmith,

Right.

Ms. -Goodpasture.

They were the same days that were

mentioned in the transcripts.

MI. Goldsmith. Four or five days?

Would that be a

fair estimate?

Ms. Goodpasture: Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. I notice Mr. Shaw's name on this, on

the top of the page, page 2. Why would his name be up there?

Ms. Goodpasture. His name would be on here because the

telephone call came from a woman from the Cuban Embassy, but

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he was responsible for the Cuban Embassy coverage.

The first line of that says woman from the consulate,

Cuban Embassy•

MI. Goldsmith. Why did this particular document

= go to

Shaw rather than to Dave Phillips?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Because Shaw had handled most of the

routine work and I think he was the one who read all of the

transcripts. But to be perfectly exact about it, I am not

too sure. I suppose Dave Phillips did not have time to read

the transcripts and Shaw was the one who reviewed them.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible in fact that the photo-

graph that you found was thephotograph that was taken on

September 28th, 1963?

Ms, Goodpasture. To answer your question we would have

to check the log because the log has the date of the photo-

graphs and a copy of the photograph attached to it.

Mr. Goldsmith. In any event, with regard to the conver-

sation of October Ist and the conversation of October 28tk,

these came to your attention right around that time period as

opposed to some time

after the assassination, is that correct?!

Ms. Goodpasture.

The conversations that had the name

in it, Lee Oswald, came to my attention right after the

conversation occurred.

MI, Goldsmith, The conversation of the 28th, when did

that first come to your attention?

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Ms. Goodpasture. I do not recall seeing it until after

the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. However, was your testimony éarlier to

the effect that upon receiving the conversation reflected on

page 2, the September 28th, 1963 conversation, and after it

was made, to locate a picture of the person who was

going to

the Russian Embassy, You did indicate that, did you not?

Ms. Goodpasture, Well, this conversation may have

been tied into the Oswald conversation by the Russian trans-

criber because he did both of them about the same time.

There was only one day's difference. It is logical

to assume that he would have recognized the voice, and we

probably had both transcripts at the same time looking for a

man when we were examining the photographs.

Mr, Goldsmith. This, in all likelihood, would have

been brought to your attention,

Ms Goodpasture. When?

Mr. Goldsmith,

Shortly after September 28th?

Ms, Goodpasture. Right. If it was with the lee Oswald

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MI. Goldsmith. Do you recall personally screening the

photo production materials to try to locate a photograph of

Oswald, or the person who identified himself as Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes. I think almost everyone in the

station. looked at those photographs after the assassination,

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but Mr. Minell and I looked at them after, his wife and I

examined them after the Oswald name first appeared.

Mr. Goldsmith. In fact, this conversation did come

to your attention well before the assassination?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was there anything, in your opinion,

unusual about. Oswald's being at the Cuban Embassy on a

Saturday?

Ms. Goodpasture.. I do not think that the Cuban Embassy

connection was tied in until afterwards, I do not know.

There were two calls on the 27th to the Cuban Embassy•

Mr. Goldsmith. I will rephrases the question. It is

apparently that, on September 28, 1963, Oswald, according to

this conversation, was at the Cuban Embassy, That is where

the conversation was made from, so at that day he was at the

Cuban Embassy.

You indicated that that would not have been

a working day for the Cuban Embassy, is that correct?

Ms, Goodpasture. The photo-surveillance, you mean?

Mr. Goldsmith, Saturday would not have been a working

day for the Cuban Embassy.

Ms. Goodpasture, That is right.

MI. Goldsmith. Was there anything unusual about .

Oswald's being at the Cuban Embassy on a day that was not a

working day?

Ms, Goodpasture. No, because foreigners were

going to

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both places and ringing the door bell and the gate-keeper

frequently let them in on days other than working days.

MI. Goldsmith. If it is true that foreigners were

frequently visiting the embassies on days other than working

days, then why was the photo-surveillance operation confined

to working days?

Ms. Goodpasture. Because the people could not work

around the clock. They had to haversome time off. One of

the photographers, as I recall, was apart-time student, or

something, but it was

not possible to have that thing going

all the time.

I think later maybe it set up a mechanical type surveil

lance that ran continuously.

Mr. Goldsmith. However, there were three different

camera sites?

Ms, Goodpasture. They did not all hit the same place.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it not possible, despite staffing

problems, that on Saturday and Sunday at least one of the

photo sites could have been maintained?

Ms: Goodpasture. It could have been possible if we had

been working, if our photographers had been American citizens

and staff agents, but we were working with Mexicans and not

many of them worked on Sundays; normally.

That was their day

off.

MI. Goldsmith, How about Saturdays?

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Ms: Goodpasture, I do not know. You would have to

talk to the case officer because it was determined that it

just was not feasible to use them on Saturdays and Sundays.

Mr. Goldsmith. Even though there were three different

surveillance sites?

Ms • Goodpasture.

There were three different photo

surveillances, but they all did not cover the same spot.

Mr. Goldsmith. Even though there were three different

surveillance operations of each Embassy on non-working days,

all three were

shut down, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right, to the best of my

knowledge.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like now to refer you to pages

4 through 6 of the documents contained in Stack B. Most of

them are in Spanish, I believe. There is a summary transla-

tion on page 6;:

The pages are identified in the lower righthand corner

of the page. Can you identify these documents?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes. They appear to be copies of

the transcripts, of portions of transcripts.

Mx. Goldsmith. What was the date of the conversation

that was reflected in this transcript?

Ms. Goodpasture. The one on page 4 is dated 21 Septen-

ber 1963%

Mr. Goldsmith. At what time did this conversation take

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place, directing your attention to page number 6.

Ms • Goodpasture.

About five minutes after 4:00.

MI. Goldsmith.

What was the source of this conversa

tion?

::..

Ms • Goodpasture.

The source was the liaison. The

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source?

MI. Goldsmith. Which telephone was being tapped?

Ms. Goodpasture.

The Soviet Embassy telephone.

Mr. Goldsmith. This was an incoming call, is that

correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. It was an incoming call from the

Cuban consulate.

MI. Goldsmith. On page 6, to the right of the numbers

in parentheses, 1605, it says, IN. What does that stand for?

Ms. Goodpasture. 1605 is the hour the call occurred.

MI. Goldsmith. Right. IN, What does that stand for?

Ms• Goodpasture. In.

Mr. Goldsmith. OV, what does that stand for?

Ms, Goodpasture. That would be the voice outside.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever seen this document, or a

copy of it, before?

Ms: Goodpasture. Seen what?

Mr. Goldsmith.

Have you ever seen this document, or a

copy of it, before?

Ms Goodpasture.

I have seen what I think was a copy

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of this document before, but this translation is a summary,

not a translation, and when we reviewed this a year ago we

determined that it was not correct and a new transcription

was made.

Mx. Goldsmith. Is it true that you determined that it

was correct in substance, however it was not complete?

Ms . Goodpasture.

NO.

It gave the wrong impression

in substance.

MI. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like to draw your

attention to document B-1, which is attached to Stack B,

just two pages.

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. There are two pages in document B-1,

is that correct?

Ms.. Goodpasture. Right.

MI. Goldsmith. Does one of them contain a conversation

from September 27, 1963

at 1605 hours?

Ms. Goodpasture, Yes.

MT .

Goldsmith. Is that accurate?

Ms. Goodpasture.

To the best of my knowledge, it is

Mx.. Goldsmith. An accurate summary of that conversa-

tion?

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Ms, Goodpasture. Yes.

Mx.. Goldsmith,

You have indicated that you have seen

this document before. I an not referring to B-l. I am going

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back to page 4 of document B.

Ms, Goodpasture. Page 4?

Mr. Goldsmith. There is a routing indication that

indicates that you have seen this document before, is that

correct?

Ms Goodpasture. Yes:

MI. Goldsmith. When was the first time that you saw

this document?

Ms. Goodpasture. Probably within a day after the

conversation occurred. Well, it would not have been the day

after.

This was on the 27th, It would have been picked up

on the following Monday:

MI. Goldsmith. What action, if any, was taken in

response?

Ms. Goodpasture. These were routed to the Minells.

MI. Goldsmith. When was the first time that this

conversation was linked to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know.

MI. Goldsmith. Let us turn to pages 7 and 8 of document

Can you identify this document?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is that?

Ms. Goodpasture. It appears to be a copy of a part of

a

transcript:

Mx. Goldsmith. Does it reflect a telephone conversation

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that came in on September 27, 1963, at 4:26?

Ms. Goodpasture, This is a telephone conversation on

the Soviet Embassy line, different from the different telephone

number and it is out to the Cuban Embassy from a man inside

the Soviet Embassy making the call to Sylvia Duranda at the

Cuban Embassy •

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever seen this document before?

Ms. Goodpasture. I have seen the original, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did you see that for the first

time?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Probably with a couple of days after

it occurred,

Mr. Goldsmith. When was this document linked to Lee

Harvey Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know. 'I think after the

assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long were the CIA and Mexico City.

station's tapes concerning Oswald's conversations with Cuban

and Soviet officials maintained?

Ms Goodpasture. I think they were probably destroyed

at the same time that other tapes for that period were

destroyed. The translations concerning the part where he

attempted to speak in Russian, the tapes which were taken to

Tarasoff may have been Ietained a longer time or a shorter

time, I do not know.

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Ms. Goodpasture. Well, occasionally he kept voice

samples, but I do not know if he kept one of this call, or

not.

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Mr. Goldsmith. At the time of the assassination, did

the Mexico City station have on hand the tapes of the Oswald

conversations?

Ms, Goodpasture.: Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Goldsmith. To your howledge, was a voice comparison

ever made between the tapes to determine whether the same

person was speaking in each one?

Ms: Goodpasture. I do not know. I did not make one.

I do not know whether someone else made one or not, There is

a transcript, a cable here, in which the transcriber of the

Soviet tape says that it is the same voice, which would lead

one to believe that he made a voice comparison, but it just

may have been that he, from his memory, came to that conclu-

sion.

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Mr. Goldsmith, I would like to refer you now to stack

c and, in stack C, if you would kindly refer to page 57,.

please.

Ms, Goodpasture. Page?

MI, Goldsmith, Page 57g

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

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MI. Goldsmith. On the lower righthand corner of the

newspaper article that is contained there, marked off with a

dark. line is a paragraph. Kindly read that paragraph,

starting with the words, "The investigators."

(Pause)

Ms. Goodpasture. This would suggest -

Mr. Goldsmith. One moment.

Ms. Goodpasture. - Tarasoff compared the voices on

a tape of October.

MI. Goldsmith. whose handwriting appears?

Ms, Goodpasture. That is mine.

Mr. Goldsmith. That is your handwriting?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is mine.

Mx.. Goldsmith,

That indicates that the caller m could

you please read that to us.

Read what you wrote that day.

Ms• Goodpasture. The caller from the Cuban Embassy was

unidentified until headquarters sent traces on Oswald. Now,

that would have been in answer to the cable that was dated

8th. October. I believe their cable was 18 October, and

voices compared by Findglass. Findglass was the pseudonym

used by Tarasoff.

MI. Goldsmith. In fact, that indicates -

Ms, Goodpasture. He compared the Cuban Embassy voices

with the others, with Oswald's call, in which he used his

name:

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Mr. Goldsmith. When would that have happened?

Ms. Goodpasture.

I said 18 October because I thought

thät was the date of the cable. 10 October.

Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to that tape containing

Oswald's voice?

Ms • Goodpasture. What happened?

ME. Goldsmith. What happened to that tape, yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do those tapes exist today?

Ms • Goodpasture. What?

Mr. Goldsmith. Do those tapes exist today?

Ms. Goodpasture, If they do, I do not know where they

are.

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• Mr.. Goldsmith. Are you aware of the fact that, after

the assassination, it has been alleged that some tapes were

given to the PBI to listen to and that it was said that these

tapes contained Oswald's voice on them?

Ms. Goodpasture. Someone asked me about that, but I do

not think that I had those tapes. I do not remember if I did,

and I was not aware that we gave any to the FBI. I do not

know whether Mr. Minell

got tapes from Mr. Tarasoff and passed

them to the FBI, or if the Chief of Station or Deputy passed

anything to the FBI.

I just do not know.

MI. Goldsmith. At any time, did anyone in the Mexico

Zin

Cis!

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City station find any photographs showing Lee Harvey

Oswald?

"Ms. Goodpasture.'

Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many times did Oswald visit the

Cuban and Soviet embassies and consulates?

Ms. Goodpasture,

We did an analysis of the conversa-

tions which indicated, I think, five times.

MI. Goldsmith. He visited the embassy and consulate

approximately five times? And eyen though he visited these

places five times, the station's photosurveillance operations

never took a picture of him, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Ms. Goldsmith. Is there any reason that you can give

as to why the photosurveillance operation, having had five

shots at Mr. Oswald, nevertheless --

Ms, Goodpasture. I could speculate, but I just assume

that he went there later in the day than they were still

wroking.

Mr. Goldsmith. In effect, they would have had an

opportunity to get a picture of My. Oswald, or the person who

said he was Mr. Oswald, when he went into the embassy and

when he went out of there, so really, there were ten oppor

tunities to take pictures of Mr. Oswald and yet there was no

picture taken of him,

Ms, Goodpasture. That is right.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Earlier, you indicated that Winston

Scott was a conscientious administrator, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Afterl the assassination, was he satis-

fied with the performance of the photo-surveillance operation

in regard to this particular matter?

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, we still did not have the

exact times that Oswald went to these places, the inferences

that he used and we could not prove that one of our people

was sitting there, making photographs, and missed him.

Human error if the photograph station was working that

he was missed.

Mr: Goldsmith. Without intending to sound argumenta.

tive in any way, I would raise the question that needs to be

raised, which is how efficient is the photosurveillance

operation that has ten opportunities to take a picture of

someone and apparently fails in each instance?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think the people that were handling

the photobase at that time sat down and tried to figure out

why it happened. As I recall, they did not think it was

terribly unusual.

I think the Cubans said their machinery was not

functioning, and I think for the Soviets it was atra time

when they were not working, but I am not sure.

MI, Goldsmith. Did you, or anyone else, find a picture

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of someone else who was at the embassies at the time when

Oswald was thought to have

gone there?

Ms, Goodpasture.:

Pardon me?

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you or anybody else find a picture

of somebody who went to the Cuban or Soviet embassies at a

time whennOswald was thought to have gone there?

Ms • Goodpasture. No.

We found a photograph of a man

but later it was determined that he went there after Oswald

had left.

Ms. Goldsmith, when you found this particular photo

graph, did you think that it pertained to Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture. We did not know, because at the time

that photograph was found, as I recall, we did not know

that Oswald had already left there. It was not until after

the assassination that we had the dates of Oswald's

departure from Mexico.

Up until the assassination time and after the assassina

tion, it still could have been pertinent that this man who

was unidentified could have been Oswald if he had been still

there the 15th.

MI. Goldsmith. But the agency or the Mexico City sta-

tion never made a connection between this man and Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. I have just handed you a document that

shows an individual. The background, the document contains a

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copy of the photograph that was taken of an individual.

The background to the document has been cropped out, is that

correct?

Ms • Goodpasture.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is this the man whose picture was taken

leaving the Cuban or Soviet embassy?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like now to refer you to Stack

C, page 2, We have reviewed this particular document before.

Do you have it before you?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsnith. We reviewed this document earlier today,

have we not?

Ms. Goodpasture: Right,

MI. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to the first

paragraph, it indicates, does it not, on 1 October 63 an

American male speaking broken Russian made contact with the

Soviet embassy,

Is that correct?

Ms Goodpasture.' That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. In the second paragraph, it referscto a

photograph, does it not?

Ms, Goodpasture.

Yes.

Mr, Goldsmith. Does the second paragraph refer to the

photograph. I have just given you?

Ms: Goodpasture. Right..

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Mr. Goldsmith. Does it refer to the photograph I have

just given you a copy of?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes. It refers to a photograph of

this man. I am not sure that these photographs were made.

Mr. Goldsmith. In fact, nine or ten photographs may

have been taken of this particular man? We do not know that

this was the particular one taken on that day, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why was the reference made in this

cable to a photograph taken on October 1, 1963?

Ms. Goodpasture. It should have been October 2. That

October lst was the wrong date. I showed you the log yesterday

-to

show you how that error occurred.

Mr. Goldsmith. At this point, let us look at the 10g.

In order to do that, you will have to look at Stack A. It

is A-4. I believe it is marked Stack A-4. Do you have that

before you? Do you have the log before you?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. Looking at the log, can you now

explain to the Committee why the cable referred to a photo-

graph taken on October Ist when actually it was taken on

another day?

Ms. Goodpasture. If you look at the log here you see

at the top - it was just an oversight on the part of the

person who was writing that cable. It looks as though the

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date is 1 October, but if you read it very closely you see

there are only two frames that were shot on 1 October and

2 October, it starts up with frame number 3, et cetera, et

cetera, and there the shots occur. That is the only explana-

tion I can give.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is your explanation that whomever

referred to the log simply looked at the date at the top of

the page, the date being October Ist, and did not see any

reference tocthe date October 2nd?

Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Getting back to the cable, what is the

date of the cable?

Ms. Goodpasture. 8 October.

Mr. Goldsmith.

If the photograph was taken on October

2nd, what was the reason for the delay in transmitting this

information to headquarters?

Ms. Goodpasture. It took about a week for processing,

generally. Two or three days. Someone had to go out and

get it and bring it in.

Mr. Goldsmith. You indicated earlier in your testimony

that the photograph you found was never linked to Oswald, Yet

paragraph 2 of this cable is tied in to paragraph 1 which

specifically refers to an American male who said his name

was Oswald.

Does that not indicate that, in fact, the link was made?

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Ms. Goodpasture. As I said, the link was made earlier.

It did not relate to Oswald. That was hindsight. At the time

this cable was written, the person who wrote it thought it

could possibly have related to Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. I believe that my question earlier was

clear. If you have a problem understanding my questions,

please. tell me.

'Are there any questions at this time?

MI. Preyer. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did the inaccurate description of

Oswald contained in the first paragraph first come to your

attention?

Ms. Goodpasture,: Page 3?

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us take a look at page 3. Can you

identify the cable that appears on page 3?

Ms. Goodpasture. The description in paragraph 1 of

Oswald is different than the description in paragraph 2:

Mr. Goldsmith. What is the cable that is found on page

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Ms. Goodpasture.

That is a cable from Washington

headguarters sent to Mexico

in reply to the Mexico cable to

headquarters.

This is giving headquarters tracing on Oswald.

MI. Goidsmitha.s

When was this cable sent?

Ms. Goodpasture. When was it sent?

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MI. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. The day that is on there is 10 October

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Mr. Goldsmith. Is it your testimony, then, that based

upon the description of Oswald in paragraph 1 of that cable

it was realized that the photograph that had been taken on

October 2nd in fact did not show Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture. It was realized that it was not

Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like now to refer to page 5.

MI. Dodd. Counsel, just one point.

What was your response to that last question?

Mr. Goldsmith. I believe Congressman Dodd

has a

question.

Mr. Dodd. What was your response to that last question?

Ms. Goodpasture. The last question, that the identifi-

cation of Oswald that they had a file trace on in the Washing-

ton cable was different from the one that the description of

the man who was in the photograph.

Mr. Dodd. You reached that conclusion on what day;

with the 10 October 163 cable; what day would you have

received that on that day, 10 October?

Ms. Goodpasture.

We would have received it on about

the 10th or llth of October, within a day from the time it.

was sent here. And I

said we reached that conclusion. There

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was controversy there over whether this man could have been

Oswald.

Mr. Dodd. Counsel, why do you not proceed?

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you describe the controversy that

you are referring to, Miss Goodpasture, over whether this

man was Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture.

I felt that it was not Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did you feel this? At the time

that the cable was sent?

Ms. Goodpasture. As soon as we got the description,

because I did not think this man, this photograph, could

possibly be the same man that was described here.

MI. Goldsmith. What actions were taken at that point

to clarify the situation?

Ms. Goodpasture. I had an argument, I think, with the

Deputy Chief of Station, Mr. Scott, over it. He said, oh,

that may be incorrect and so forth. But there was quibbling

over it:

MI. Goldsmith. Going back to the cable that appears

on page 2, I am still not sure that I understand why the

photo was sent to headquarters. What indication did you

have that Oswald had been to the Cuban or Russian Embassy

on

October lst of 2nd of 1963?

The transcripts that we reviewed earlier gave no indica-

tion that he was going to be there on that day.

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Ms. Goodpasture. What was that again now?

MI. Goldsmith. The transcript that we reviewed earlier f

Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Gave no indication that Oswald was

going to be at the Russian or Cuban Embassy on October Ist

or 2nd.

MS . .

Goodpasture. That is right. But once this mistake

was made and this cable was sent, it was compounded, because

the cable was used as reference material, rather than going

back to the log. We did not get around to correcting that.

date.

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Mr. Goldsmith.: I understand that but, however, at the

time this cable was sent, it refers to an American male

entering the Soviet Embassy on October Ist and now we find

that it really was October 2nd. And apparently you checked

the production logs for October Ist and 2nd.

My question is; since the transcripts

gave no indication

that Oswald had been at the Embassy on October Ist or 2nd

why was this picture connected to Oswald? You have no inde-

pendent information that Oswald had been to the Embassy on

October lst or 2nd?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is true, but we could not tell

fron this conversation on the lst that he did not go there.

We also could not tell from our transcripts that he had left

the area and that there was a possibility that he had gone

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there without calling.

MI. Goldsmith. You checked the photosurveillance

materials for approximately a four or five day period, is that

correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, I think it is.

Mr. Goldsmith. During that four or five day period

Oswald was the only -- not Oswald. This man was the only

non-Latin appearing man whose photograph you found, is that

correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think that it was the only linon-

Latin appearing person's photograph that we found that we

could not identify as somebody else. A lot of the people

who went to the Soviet Embassy all the time, we came to know

who they were. After they had been identified, they made

frequent visits there.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to refer your attention

now to page 5.

MI. Preyer. Counsel, may I speak to you for a moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Dodd. Miss Goodpasture, I am checking on the time

remaining for questioning. Counsel indicates that he would

require something less than another hour. Is that right?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. Can you stand it that much bonger?

Let us get it over with.

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Ms . Goodpasture.

I would rather get it over with, if

you can stand it.

Mr. Preyer. All right.

I think we might proceed at this time. I will have to

excuse myself.

MI. " Goldsmith.. For purposes of clarification, the

reason that this particular photograph was selected was.

because during the four or five day period in which the

photo productioniots were

checked, this

individual was the

only non-Latin appearing male whom your personnel in the

Mexico City station were unable to identify, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. " That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to page 5 -

before we get into page 5, was Oswald's, or the person whom

you thought was Oswald, was his appearance at the Embassy

considered to be unusual or of any significant interest?

Ms. Goodpasture. Would you ask that question again?

I am not sure I understood.

MI. Goldsmith. Was the fact that Oswald or the person

whom you identified as Oswald appeared at the embassies when

he did, was that considered unusual?

Ms. Goodpasture. No. Frequently there were callers,

people who were American citizens, long distance calls, local

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calls, and so many of them were crackpots, in a sense, that

it was just another one, another name that we might of might

not identify. But when we found that there was no record in

our file traces it did not mean anything to us exceptia name

at that time.

Mr. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention now to page 5

of the cable that was sent to the Mexico City station from the

CIA headquarters, this is page 5 of stack C -

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the releasing officer for this

cable?

Ms. Goodpasture. Who wrote it?

MI. Goldsmith. Who was the releasing officer?

Ms. Goodpasture.

The releasing officer?

MI. Goldsmith.

Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. The Acting Director for Plans.

His

name was Tom Karamessinas.

Mr. Goldsmith. At that time, Mi. Karamesinas was the

Director for Plans?

MS •

Goodpasture. Yes. I think Assistant Director,

excuse me.

MI. Goldsmith. Under what circumstances would somebody

like Karamessinas serve as a releasing officer?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know. It may have been the

hour of the day that it was sent. He may have been the only

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person still around at that time.

Mr.. Goldsmith.:

Mr. Karamessinas?

Ms. Goodpasture. I was in Mexico so I would not really

know why he did it at headquarters.

MI. Goldsmith. I understand.

Ms . Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Karamessinas' position was a

relatively high one in the CIA hierarchy, is that correct?

Ms . Goodpasture.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. This was a matter that was not considered

to be of particular significance, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. It was not significant to us at the

time that - before we got the name trace. It may have been

considered significant here in Washington because it was.

possibly because he was a former defector.

MI. Goldsmith. I see. The Washington authorities may

have regarded this as significant and upon receipt of this

cable in Mexico City station, I believe you indicated before

that Mr. Tarasoff apparently made a voice comparison of the

taped conversations Is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. If headquarters considered this matter

to be significant, would they have been apprised of the

results of this voice comparison?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know whether they would or

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Ma. Goldsmith.

As a matter of routine procedure?

Ms. Goodpasture. The voice comparison only indicated

that he called the Soviet embassy and the Cuban embassy.

We

had his name, a name, Oswald, in the traffic to the soviet

embassy to start off with, and the only thing the voice

comparison did, it tied in that name, but we had no way of

identifying our caller exactly with the subject of this

trace.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying, then, that the fact

that Oswald, the fact that you were able to, by voice compari-

son, establish that he had been to the Cuban Embassy and the

Soviet Embassy was not significant?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is what we said in the note.

In the transcripts, he called the Soviet embassy from the

Cuban embassy, a man, and that voice by the Russian trans-

criber was identified as the same voice as the person who

said his name was Lee Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith: I understand that. But headquarters

was never apprised of that voice comparison?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think they were in a cable.

MI. Goldsmith. Prior to the assassination?

Ms. Goodpasture. No, I do not think they were prior

to the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. Apparently the fact that the Lee Harvey

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Oswald was considered significantly significant for MI.

Karamessinas to be the releasing officer of the cable to the

Mexican station and a voice comparison is made for the purpose

of determining essentially whether Oswald had been to both

the Cuban and the Soviet Embassy. According to your testi-

mony, the results of that voîce comparison were that in fact

it was the same person.

Are you saying that the fact that Oswald had been to

both the Cuban and the Russian embassy was not considered

sufficiently important to notify headquarters prior to the

assassination?

Ms. Goodpasture. No, because at that stage, we had no

way of proving that the man who made that call in Mexico was

the same man that this trace was about.:

Mr. Goldsmith. The cable from headquarters gives back-

ground information on Mr. Oswald, does it not?

Ms • Goodpasture. Right.

We assumed that it probably was.

Mr. Goldsmith. Right.

After receiving the cable, a voice comparison is made.

It is determined that the same person was talking on each

tape and there is no follow-up to headquarters, even though

headquarters clearly considered this to be significant?

Ms. Goodpasture. The follow-up was made by disseminat-

ing this information from the traces locatly and trying to

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identify Oswald, trying to locate the man. That is the way

the follow up was made. We thought that he may still be in

Mexico.

Mr. Goldsmith. The point is, however, that upon the

making of a voice comparison, if, in fact, that was done,

that information was not communicated to anyone.

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not know if it was or not.

You would have to check the file completely, the cable

traffic, to

see if it was. To the best of my knowledge, it

was not until after the assassination.

Mr.. Goldsmith. If it were not, would that be unusual?

Ms. Goodpasture. No.

Mr: Goldsmith. Despite the fact that this was considered

something of significance by headguarters?

Ms. Goodpasture. Headquarters - no, because they

could not have done anything with the voice comparison.

Mr. Goldsmith. Perhaps they could not have done any

thing with the voice comparison, but they may have considered

it to be even more serious had they been informed that not

only had Oswald been to the Soviet. Embassy but he also had

been to the Cuban Embassy•

Ms. Goodpasture. I think they knew that, because the

call from the Soviet Embassy came from the Cuban Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Your cable of October 8th, does that.

indicate that the call came from the Cuban Embassy?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Pardon me?

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Mr. Goldsmith.:: Your cable of October 8th, I am.

referring now to page 2. Does that give any indication that

the call came from the Cuban Embassy?

Ms. Goodpasture. The first call was not made -- no,

it does not

Mr. Goldsmith. In fact, headquarters did not know

that he had been to the Cuban Embassy+

Ms. Goodpasture. Pardon me?

Mr. Goldsmith. In fact, headquarters did not know that

he had also been to the Cuban Embassy:

Ms. Goodpasture. At that point, no.

MI. Goldsmith. At least, according to your recollec-

tion, it was not until after the assassination that head-

quarters was informed of that fact.

Ms. Goodpasture. That is probably right.

Mr. Goldsmith, Have you ever spoken to Mr. Karasmes-

sinas about this matter?

Ms • Goodpasture. Pardon me?

MI. Goldsmith. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Karamessinasi

about this matter?

Ms. Goodpasture. No, and I do not think that in

Mexico that we would have known that Tom Karamessinas signed

off on this cable, because the cable that came down there did

not have the names of the people on then.

This is a headquarters file copy that you are working

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Mr. Goldsmith. There are other indications on the

cable as well that headquarters regarded this incident to be

significant, is that not true? The cable also contains other

indications that indicated that headquarters regarded this

matter to be significant, is that not true?

For example, in paragraph 4 -- I am referring now to

page 5 of Stack C, paragraph 4 -- it says, Station should

pass info RIF(1) and it

gives cryptonyms of various govern-

mental agencies. Certainly that is an indication that

headquarters regarded this as significant.

Ms. Goodpasture. That information was taken immediately

and all efforts were made to locate the man in Mexico, think-

ing that he was still there, but this cable did not tell us

that he had come back to the states.

MI. Goldsmith. I understand. The only point I am

making here, this is a spearate indication that headquarters

regarded this to be a matter of significance, the fact that

they told you to pass along information to other people.

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Mr. Dodd, Counsel?

(Discussion off the record.)

MI. Doda: We are going to take a five or so minute

recess. There is a recorded vote on the Floor. I will give

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you aminute to

get a breather and I will be right back to

continue with the questioning.

The Committee will stand in recess for five minutes.

(A brief recess was taken.)

MI. Dodd. At the time that we took the recess, and I

responded to a recorded vote, Counsel was proceeding with

questions. I would ask counsel to continue with those

questions.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you.

One question that was out of the line of my inquiry

that I was making prior to the recess, at the time that

the Oswald reco-ding was obtained, did you or anyone else

go to Boris Tarasoff and indicate to him that this was a matter

of special importance and needed to be transcribed immedi

ately?

Ms. Goodpasture. The first tape with his voice on it,

I cannot remember whether or not I took that to Herb Minell

or whether the outside agent took it to Tarasoff, but it was

taken to Tarasoff at the same time that it came in from the

base,

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MI. Goldsmith. Was Tarasoff given special instructions

that this particular recording was of unusual importance?

MS. Goodpasture. I am quite sure that he was asked

to transcribe it immediately.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why would he häve been asked to transcribe

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it immediately?

Ms . Coodpasture.e

So they could find out whether there

was any information there under the name Lee Oswald. That

was the only transcription that he did except for a short

one from the Cuban Embassy

staff.

MI. Goldsmith. The first conversation that came in

involving Oswald apparently came in on September 27, that

he was not identified by name in that conversation.

Ms, Goodpasture. No, that is right.

'Mr. Goldsmith. Was that tape taken to Tarasoff?

Is

that the one that he was asked to transcribe immediately?

Ms. Goodpasture. The one that he was asked to transcribe

immediately was the one that had the name on it. The one

that was unidentified, it would also have been taken to him

as soon as it came off of the machine, and he would have been

asked to transcribe it as soon as he could.

Mr. Goldsmith, I am not sure I follow you why there

was a need

• to transcribe it immediately.

Ms. Goodpasture.

Pardon me?

Mr. Goldsmith, Why was there a need to have him

transcribe it immediately?

Ms • Goodpasture.

The Lee Oswald one?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. The conversation was in Russian, or

broken Russian, but it was in a language that the monitors

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inside could not understand. They could not tell if the

man had a telephone number there or if he had an address

or if he gave more information in the Russian language than

his name.

The only thing they got was his name, which I believe

was in English.

MX. Goldsmith. Even so, why could they not have waited

for the ordinary lag time to ensure prior to the transcrip

tion of the recording?

Ms. Goodpasture. Wait a minute, We are talking about

two different things. The reason that he would have been

asked, Tarasoff would have been asked, to transcribe it

immediately would have been because we had a name connected

with it. Most of Tarasoff's transcription work was trans-

cribing Russian to English, but the conversations were with

persons. who were in the Embassy, Soviet personnel, and in

that process he built up a backlog.

So if something came in that was not a Soviet or

something other than the people who we knew there talking,

he would have been asked to do that immediately before the

chit-chat. conversation translations of people who were

living in the Embassy:

Now do you understand what I am talking about?

MI. Goldsmith. I think your explanation is responsive.

MI. Dodd, Counsel, one point I should make on the

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record. I should mention that MI. Edgar is replacing Mr.

Sawyer here for purpose of this hearing.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like, at this point, to refer

to page 6 of the documents contained in Stack C.. In this

regard, can you identify this particular document?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, it is a cover sheet that would

go over a cable in the Mexico station files.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is this the cover sheet that went with

the cable that was received from headquarters which gave the

correct description of Oswald?

Ms. Goodpasture. Probably on the llth of october.

That is the date stamped here.

MI. Goldsmith. In fact, number i-

matt not

TiMs, Goodpasture. No, that is not right. The date.

is stamped there with the date of the message. The day it

was received was 12 October which was the day that is

beside Scott's name.

Mr. Goldsmith. However, the routing slip pertains

to cable number 74830.

Ms, Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Which is the one that arrived from

Washington that gave the description of Oswald, is that

correct?

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Ms: Goodpasture. That is correct.:

MI. Goldsmith. Examining this particular document,

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whose handwriting appears in dark, bold script on the right

side, the right side of the page?

Ms. Goodpasture. The dark print?

MI. Goldsmith. The cursive.

Ms. Goodpasture. Please set up P file?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. That is Mr. Scott's.

MI. Goldsmith. What is a P file?

Ms , Goodpasture. Where?

MI. Goldsmith. What is a P file?

Ms • Goodpasture. What is one?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture. That is a personality file on an

individual, an investigative file containing all the informa-

tion about a name.

MI. Goldsmith. Is that a file that is maintained at a

local station?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. How does it differ from the file on an

individual that is maintained at headquarters?

Ms. Goodpasture. It is not any different at all. It

is the same type of file.

MI. Goldsmith. In terms of the content of the file,

would everything that is in the local file, the P file, be

reflected in the headguarters file on the individual?

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Ms. Goodpasture.

Not always. It should be, but some

times formal communication was sent to headguarters that was

written from several notes.

The formal communication, such

as the cable, would be in the headquarters files, but if some-

one had taken the information down from the conversation on a

table napkin, or something, and had not written a formal

memorandum for the file, the raw data would not be in the

headquarters file.

Mr. Goldsmith How long would it take to open a P file

locally?

Ms. Goodpasture. Depending on the workload, it should

not take longer than a day to take a file folder out of the

cabinet and put the material in and put a label on it.

MI, Goldsmith. Is it likely that Oswald's P file

was open shortly after October 12, 1963?

Ms. Goodpasture. I would assume so.

Mr. Goldsmith. Examining the statement in cursive

by Mr. Scott, it says, "Please set up p file on Lee. Henry

Oswald and put all data that we have into it."" "All" is

underscored.

Do you have any explanation for why Mr. Scott would

have bothered to underscore "all"?

Ms. Goodpasture. He always did that.

you always had the feeling that your files were never

complete enough.

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MI. Goldsmith.*

If you examined another routing slip

by MI. Scott directing that a P file should be opened, he

would also, as a matter of routine, have the "all" under-

lined?

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. To your knowledge, do you have any

information that any materials that should have gone in

Oswald's P file were not put into it?

Ms. Goodpasture. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Oswald's I file, in fact, complete?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think his file was complete.:

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to refer you to page 7

this time of the materials contained in Stack C and could

you explain to me and the Congressmen what the difference

is between this cable which is marked, in the upper right-

hand corner, 74830 and the cable that appears on page 3 that

is also marked 74830?

Ms.: Goodpasture. Number 3?

MI.. Goldsiith. Page 3.

Ms. Goodpasture:

The one on page 7 is a copy of the

cable when it was received in Mexico City that was typed up

in the Mexico station. The one on page 3 is a copy that

was taken from the headquarters file and the way the cable

looked when it went out.

Page 7 is the way it was received, You have information

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from the Mexico file and information from a headquarters file

put together here.

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, who would review

the cable upon receiving it in Mexico City?

Ms. Goodpasture. The first person to get all cable

traffic was the Chief of Station and the second person to get

it was Alan White. The third person to get it was usually

the person to whom it was routed to, that. Mr. Scott wanted

to see it first.

Mr. Goldsmith. On page 7, This appears to be MI.

Scott's handwriting in dark, the dark lines, and the hand-

writing.

Ms, Goodpasture: Winn Scott's.

Mr. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to the arrow

that appears on the upper lefthand corner of this document,

the arrow goes from Henry upwards. Do you see that?

Ms • Goodpasture.

Yes.

Mx. Coldsmith. To the right of that

appears: the word

"sic."

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Ms, Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Underscored.

Can you explain that?

Ms, Goodpasture. Well, he put "sic" there because he

wanted a heading on the P file - this goes back to the P

file - he wanted the P file to be written Lee oswald, the

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title on it, also known as lee Henry Oswald. That is what

the "sic" designates, that it could be two names.

MI. Goldsmith. If that were the case, would not the

appropriate way to indicate that be by writing down "aka"

instead of "sici."

Ms. Goodpasture.

"Aka" was also used.

Mr. Goldsmith. In fact, my impression is that the

term "sic! is used as a matter of routine in the English

language to designate that. the item that is referred to is

erroneous.:

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not think he meant it in those

terms. "I think he wanted both names to be on the file.

He

is another world now and there is no way of finding out.

Mr. Goldsmith Understood.

In fact, the "sic" points right to the lenry and in

fact Oswald's real name was Harvey not Henry, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture.: Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did Winn Scott know that Oswald's middle

name was Harvey and not Henry?

Ms. Goodpasture. Not to my knowledge. We had no record

of it at the Mexico station, We had no trace on anyone by

Oswald®

MI. Goldsmith, That is exactly right. It is an impor-

tant question.

Ms, Goodpasture. Right.

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That is why, I think, that he must have wanted it so

that the file would show lee Oswald and also Lee Henry

Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. If the Committee wanted to verify whether

it was standard procedure for Mr. Scott to indicate that a file

should be opened under more than one name, for him to indi

cate. that by writing down the word "sic;" I presume that all

we would have to do is to review cable traffic of routing

sheets to see if that was a matter of routine, he used that

terminology, "sic" is that not correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. You could if you wanted.

MI. Goldsmith. If, in fact, it turned out that as a

matter of routine he did not use the terminology "sic" to

refer to the opening of a file under more than one name, that

might indicate, would it not, that scott was aware of Oswald's

true middle name?

Ms. Goodpasture. I would not go so far as to suggest

that. You could assume that you thought that he knew, but

if he knew it, we certainly had no record of it to my knowledge

at the Mexico station.

MI. Dodd, Let me step in here for a second.

Ms• Goodpasture. I do not think he knew it.:

Mr, Dodd. Let me ask you something, ma'am.

What does

"sic" mean to you, s-i-c?

Ms. Goodpasture.

I was just saying that, the way it is

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MI. Dodd, What does "sic" mean to you?

Ms• Goodpasture. A

garbled version of a name.

MI. Dodd. Not an aka?

MS. Goodpasture. NO.

MI. Dodd. There is a distinction between an aka and a

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Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

MI. Dodd. Are you telling this committee that it is

your personal knowledge --

Ms. Goodpasture. I am saying, sir, that I think that

what he meant was that Lee Oswald, because the first conversa-

tion we heard -

MI. Dodd, I understand,. Let me repeat what I think

you are saying. Correct me if I am wrong.

What you are telling us is that you have personal

knowledge that the individual that made that notation there,

sic, as a result of your personal knowledge of this individual,

he used those words interchangeably all the time, even though

you know that those two words have different meanings, or

those symbols have different meanings?

Ms. Goodpasture.*

That is not what I mean to say:

Mr. Dodd. The record indicates that you had some

sort

of special knowledge that this individual used those symbols

interchangeably.

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Ms. Goodpasture. In the context of the way the name

Lee Oswald came to our attention the first time, it was in

such a way that we could not tell the man was saying his

name was Lee and Oswald, or whether his name was Lee Oswald.

MI. Dodd. What notation was made in that reference

In the cable traffic when the transcripts -- what notation is

in parentheses?

Ms. Goodpasture. Pardon me?

Mr. Doda. What notation was in parentheses in the

transcripts of the telephone conversations?: Does the word

phonetic, does that strike a bell in parentheses, phonetic?

Ms. Goodpasture. Phonetic, Lee Oswald.

When the transcript was first brought to me, the man

outside, as I recall, said they do not know if this man is

Lee or whether it is Oswald.

Mr. Dodd. If they indicated they did not understand,

what did they put in parentheses?

Ms. Goodpasture. Before the action was taken on the

transcript, was taken to the transcriber who prepared an

English translation and on the basis of his English trans-

lation they felt that, the person who prepared the cable

felt, that the name was Lee Oswald.

MI. Dodd. Did they not put phonetic?

Ms • Goodpasture.

They put phonetic.

Mr. Dodd. They did not put sic?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Meaning that they did not know whether

it was spelled Ozwald or Oswald, I guess.

But I cannot be

sure, but the person who prepared the cable is here, Barbara

Minell. She might know.

MI. Dodd. Counsel and witness, I am going to have to

apologize to you one more time. This is one of the burdens

of this institution. We have a recorded vote again. We will

come right back.

(A brief recess was taken.)

Mr. Dodd. Picking up where we left off at the time we

took that recess, I do not want to belabor this point with

you. How well did you know

Mr. Scott?

Ms. Goodpasture.: I did not make myself clear. What

I meant when I answered his question, I thought, I think,

that this refers to the fact that the first lee Oswald that

we had was garbled.

Mr. Goldsmith. Where was that?

What are you talking

about, on the transcripts or the conversation?

Ms, Goodpasture. From the transcripts, yes, sir.

And we had never seen the name printed and that I thought what

he meant that this Lee Henry Oswald file should have in it

all the information that we had on the man with the name,

the garbled name, the lee Oswald that had come up in the

transcripts.

That was just my interpretation.: I do not know, to

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answer the question truthfully.

MI. Dodd.

Let us go back a little bit and, counsel,

I will ask you to assist me on this, but in all of the trans-

cripts, was there any middle name or middle initial mentioned?

I do not recall seeing any.

Mr. Goldsmith. No, there was not.

MI. Dodd. That does not explain the letter or the

language "sic" by Henry, because they had never been any

reference to a Henry or a Harvey•

Ms, Goodpasture. That. Henry, I think that was the

headquarters mistake. This cable originated in headquarters

that we are looking at and this is a copy of it as it was

received in Mexico.

The first time that we received the name on Oswald and

the traces it was Lee Henry, and it was later that it became

Lee Harvey•

MI. Dodd. We are getting away from my point. If it

were a question about using a different name as you have

properly described Aka, also known as, is the proper letter

to use in that kind of situation where a sic, as you have

properly defined it, describes an entirely different

situation.

Ms • Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Dodd.. My next question is, how well did you know

MI. Scott? Didyou know him well?

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was there.

Mr. Dodd. You knew him fairly well.

Ms Goodpasture. Let me answer it this way. I do not

think I knew him well enough to be able to say beyond any

reasonable doubt what he meant here by this term.

MI. Dodd. Were you familiar with his annotations on

other cable traffic?

Ms. Goodpasture. Well, Yes, I think I probably was

more familiar than anybody else who was down there at that

time because I was down there longer.

Mr.. Dodd. Did you ever notice that he used these

symbols interchangeably in other cable traffic?

Ms. Goodpasture:

Yes, I think he would use it. I have

seen him write sic in for a garbled name by the side of it.

One garbled version put in for the information on a file

traced with another name.

MI. Dodd. Thank you. I turn questioning over to

counsel.

Mr. Goldsmith, Referring to page 6 of Stack C, Scott

indicates that a P file should be opered on Lee Henry Oswald

does he not?

Ms, Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith, He does not indicate that a file should

be opened under Lee Oswald and Lee Henry Oswald, does he?

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In other words, he does not indicate the file should

be opened up under two names?

Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. So really there is no basis at all for

thinking that the term "sic" indicates what Scott had in mind

was an "aka" is there? There is no basis for reaching that

conclusion, is there?

Ms. Goodpasture. Would you repeat that again?

MI, Goldsmith. Certainly:

It is apparent from the routing indication on page 6

that Scott wanted the file opened on Lee Henry Oswald.

Ms • Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. He gave no indication on the routing

slip that he wanted the file open up under the name Lee Henry

Oswald aka Lee Oswald. There is no indication that

the file

was to be opened up under two names. In light of that, there

is really no basis, is there, for concluding that the use of

the phrase Sic on page 7 refers to the term aka?

Ms: Goodpasture. My interpretation that the use of

the word sic was for the Lee Oswald, the first name in there

on page 7 and that all of the information about that name

that we did not know the full name on would go into the other

file,

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Mr. Goldsmith, The "sic" is pointing to the word

"Henry" is it not?

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Ms • Goodpasture. I feel that refers to the first

LeE

Oswald in place of lee Henry Oswald, the first line. We

could argue that.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Is not the arrow pointed right over

and in between the "e" and "n" in the word "Henry"?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right, but it is also pointing

right to the beginning of the Lee Oswald name.

To answer your question, I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. In any event, "sic" does not mean "aka"

does it?

Ms: Goodpasture.

That is right.

MI, Goldsmith. MI. Scott did not use

those terms

interchangeably, did he?

Ms. Goodpasture. Did he

Mx. Goldsmith. Use the term "sic", s-i-c, and the

term "aka" interchangeably? He did not, as a matter of

custom, do that, did he?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not recall having seen him use

aka that much at all. I have seen sic several times after a

name when there was no middle initial or where there wasti

question about spelling.

Mr. Goldsmith. I do not believe that the answer was

responsive. Do you know whether he used the term "sic." and

"aka" interchangeably?

Ms,: Goodpasture. No, I do not know.

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Mr. Goldsmith. You testified earlier, I believe, that

upon receipt of this cable, the Tarasoffs, or Boris Tarasoff,

made a voice comparison. Is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That

Mr. Goldsmith. Your testimony earlier, I believe, was

that upon receipt of this cable from headquarters, Boris

Tarasoff made a voice comparison of the tape recordings?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. And they concluded

Ms. Goodpasture. At some time after receipt of this

cable, according to receipt of that note, I do not know

when

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MI. Goldsmith. He concluded that it was the same

person on both tapes, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture.

That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you to refer now to page

21 in Stack C, page 21.

Ms. Goodpasture.:

One moment,

MI. Goldsmith.

We will make that page 22. Can you

identify this: document?

Ms . Goodpasture.

Yes, This is a copy of

a cable that

was sent from headquarters to Washington.

Mr. Coldsmith.

Who was the originating officer of this

cable?

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Ms. Goodpasture. I am.

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this cable?

Ms. Goodpasture. I am.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is your understanding of the term

"authenticating officer"? What does that term mean?

Ms. Goodpasture. Someone who has the authority to sign

a cable, to release it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would an authenticating officer simply

sign a cable and release it, or is there anything that he

would do before signing?

Ms. Goodpasture. The releasing officer was a superior

officer.

MI,. Goldsmith. It would be the responsibility of the

authenticating officer, would it not, to verify the accuracy

of the contents of the cable?

Is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, that would be his responsibility.

MI. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to the bottom of

page 22, please read the second paragraph.

It continues on

to page 23*

(Pausel

Ms. Goodpasture.

"Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Specifically, this seems to indicate

that the station is unable to compare the voice of the first

tape, which was erased pror to the receipt of the second call?

Is: that true? Is that what the document indicates?

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Ms. Goodpasture. Right.

MI. Goldsmith. Do you have any explanation for the

inconsistency between this document and your earlier testimony

that there was a voice comparison made?

MS"

Goodpasture. The only explanation that I can make

is that the Soviet transcriber made it on the basis of not

listening to the two tapes again over, but on his memory of

yes, that is the same man that I listened to and transcribed

the tape fron the Soviet Embassy, the man who called himself

Lee Oswald®

Mr. Dodd, Counsel, I do not want to interrupt you.

Mrs. Goodpasture, you worked a long time in that Embassy,

yOu

are very familiar with technical terms and terminology

that are used.

Now, when you are doing a voice comparison and what

all of that means, a voice comparison, that is a rather

technical description of

something, and you just stated a

minute ago that a voice comparison was made. I would assume

by that that you are telling this committee - and we are

grateful that you are here, we appreciate your testimony.

We have a very difficult job in front of us. We are trying

to get to the botton of this whole story, and you are making

it difficult

I do not like to have to tell you that, but you are. You

are using the term "voice comparison" and you are indicating

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to this committee that there was analysis made of a person's

voice, not the merory of a transcriber. It is a technical job.

It is not something that you leave to somebody who is merely

a translator, and you just finished telling us that a voice

comparison was made.

Your own memorandum there on page 21

says that, in fact, one could not have been made.

What is the truth here?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think that what happened was that

the voice comparison, by taking the two tapes, I think the

tape had been destroyed

Based on my memory now

MI. Dodd. What you just said a minute ago

Ms. Goodpasture. To tell you the truth, I do not

remember.

MI. Dodd. What you just said a moment ago is not

true, then, that there is not a voice comparison?

Ms, Goodpasture. What I said a moment ago was based on

a note that had been made in the files, that the transcriber

hadilcompared the voices, and this note was written 14 years

ago!

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MI. Dodd. Based upon your working knowledge of the

terminology of voice comparison, does that normally involve

listening to two tapes with someone who is technically trained

to make a determination as to whether or not the voices on two

different tapes are one and the same person?

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Ms. Goodpasture. The way it was used, to me it would

also mean that a person who had listened to two tapes at

different times and said that they were the same, that it

would be a comparison by him.

Mr. Dodd. That was considered a bona fide voice

comparison?

MS• Goodpasture. Not in the technical sense that you

are referring to. You are correct.

Mr. Dodd. Counsel, you may proceed. I am awfully

confused about your statement.

Ms. Goodpasture. I apologize for that. It is a con-

fusion tome of so much material at one time, going over it

and the details of it. But I honestly do not remember being

present when those tapes were listened to, or a conversation

relating to it.

It was this material that came up in the

files.

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MI.. Dodd,

You understand, when you are talking bout

voices being compares, you are comparing a tape of someone

speaking.

Ms, Goodpasture. Right.

Mr. Dodd,. You cannot make a comparison based on a

transcript or someone's memory of a tape that had been

destroyed, by your own testimony.

Ms. Goodpasture. A better way to explain it would have

been, probably, if this occurred, would have been to have

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said that the transcriber who listened to both tapes said

that it was the same person rather than using the term

"voice comparison."

MI. Dodd. You sent out this memo. Let me refer you

to page 67.

Ms. Goodpasture.

Yes, sir.

MI. Dodd.

Stack. C.

I am looking. at thiso newz story here."or

Can I ask you, is that your handwriting on the bottom there?

You see the documentation?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, sir.

MI. Dodd. Whose handwriting is that?

Ms. Goodpasture. It is mine.

Mr. Dodd.

Read that for me. I can't read your hand-

writing too well. What does that say?

Ms. Goodpasture. It says the caller from the Cuban

Embassy was unidentified until Headquarters sent traces on

Oswald and voices compared by Findglass who is the Soviet

translator.

MI. Dodd. When did you make that annotation?

Ms• Goodpasture.

When?

MI. Dodd. Yes.

Ms. Goodpasture.. I do not know.

Mr. Dodd. Approximately?

Ms. Goodpasture. I would assume we made it some time

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after the date of this article.

To answer your question

truthfully, I do not know.

MI. Dodd. Was it ten years ago, a year ago?

Ms. Goodpasture. The date on this article was 21 October

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Mr. Dodd. Would you have done it right at the time that

the article had come out?

Ms. Goodpasture. I will tell you --

MI. Dodd. Unfortunately, we are going to have to

break again for another vote and I am going to come back

again in five minutes. In that five minutes, I want you to

think very hard about when you made that annotation. I am

going to ask you to give me an answer to that.

I do not want to have to remind you here that you are

sworn to tell the whole truth to this Committee and it is

vitally important.

Ms. Goodpasture. That is what I have been trying to

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do.

Mr. Dodd. This is a very important matter. We will

take a recess and come back in five minutes and I would like

you to think about it during those five minutes, and

then I

would like you to give me your best answer to that question

I just asked you.:

We will stand in recess.

(A brief recess was taken.)

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MI. Dodd. Picking up, Mrs. Goodpasture, where we left

off at the time of the last break and you have had a few

minutes to think over my question, I do not want you to think

for one second that I am particularly being tough in any

way. It is just that these are very, very important ques-

tions and I would like you to answer you as honestly and as

candidly as you can as to when you think you made that

notation.

Ms. Goodpasture. I think that I made the notation within

about a week of ten days after the date of the newspaper

article, because this was a Washington article and it would

have been sent to us in Mexico through a pouch.

Mr. Dodd. 1964?

Ms. Goodpasture. I think it would have been some time

towards the end of October, 1964.

Mr. Dodd. Did I understand you correctly to respond

to counsel's question, turning to page 22, that you were

the releasing officer, authenticating officer - which was it

on that memo? Did I hear your response to that correctly?

MI. Goldsmith. Were you the authenticating officer of

this memo?

Ms • Goodpasture. Yes.

MI. Dodd. You were the authenticating officer for

that memo?

Ms. Goodpasture: Cable.

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MI. Dodd. Cable dated 23 November 1963?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dodd. I read to you again paragraph 2. "In view

Oswald Soviet Union. In fact, he claimed on 1 October, the

envoy" - whatever that is - "to have visited the Soviet

Embassy 28 September:

Subject paragraph 1 probably Oswald.

Station unable to compare

voice as first tape erased prior

second call."

That is November, 1963 and in October of '64, "Voices

compared by Findglass." Which is true?

Ms. Goodpasture. The notation was made in 1964 on this

newspaper article. I think that I was referring to the trans-

criber, Mr. Tarasoff's, identifying the man as having made

both calls in listening to the tapes.

Mr. Dodd. Why did you not make that same observation

on 23 November 1963?

Ms. Goodpasture. That was a mistake I made that I should

not have made. I should have stated it exactly as it occurred

so we would not be in doubt now. But I do not know.

Mr. Dodd. So the statement made on 23 November '63 is

inaccurate?

Ms. Goodpasture.

To the best of my knowledge, it is.

I am sure I could not locate the tapes, or I would not have.

put that in the cable.

Mr. Dodd. Thank you.

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Counsel, You may proceed.

MI. Goldsmith. Thank you.

In this regard, I would like to refer to Stack B, the

document, page 1 in Stack B, which is the transcript ofithe

conversation in reference to Oswald. That is Stack B, page

1.: This is a transcription of a conversation involving

Oswald that took place on 1 October 1963.

By the line which immediately follows the number 151

in brackets it says "the same person who phoned a day or so

ago and spoke in broken Russian."

Viewing this language in connection with page 67 of

Stack C, that is the newspaper article that we were just

referring to -

Ms. Goodpasture. 67.

Mr. Goldsmith. Page 67, the newspaper article that

we were just referring to. I direct your attention to the

last paragraph of that article, the one that is marked off,

specifically the one that is adjacent to your marginal nota-

tion.

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Would you please read that?

Ms. Goodpasture: Yes:

Mr. Goldsmith. Might it not be said that, viewing these

two items together, the language in this paragraph and the

statement in brackets, the same person who phoned a day or so

ago and spoke broken Russian, that it was apparent that Oswald,

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in fact, had visited the Cuban Embassy earlier?

Ms Goodpasture..

Would you repeat that again, please?

MI. Goldsmith. Viewing these two documents together,

the last paragraph of the article, the language in brackets,

it says, "The same person

who phoned a day or so ago and

spoke in broken Russian."

Does it not become apparent that Oswald, in fact, had

visited the Cuban Embassy earlier?

I admit that is not a direct

inference that can be

drawn, but if you follow the transcripts, if you

go back to

the preceding Saturday and you review the transcripts from

that day, it becomes apparent that Oswald had been at the Cuban

Embassy on Saturday. The point that I am getting at is that

independent of these documents here, it would seem that a

voice comparison, in fact, would have to have been made.

Ms. Goodpasture.

I think that he recognized the voice

from having listened to a tape of the Cuban Embassy that had

Russian on it but did not have a name, instead of just

listening to two tapes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Going back to page 22 of Stack C it

says, "station unable to compare voice as first tape erased

prior receipt second call."

Does that suggest to you at at the time that this cable

was sent the second tape wasstill in existence? It says

one tape was destroyed or erased; the second one was not.

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Ms. Goodpasture. No, I think that it had been erased.

Mx. Goldsmith. You say both have been erased?

This says, "station unable to complete" --

Ms. Goodpasture. The first tape -

Mr. Goldsmith. Right. The first tape, according to

this cable, had been erased. What about the second tape?

Ms. Goodpasture. Pardon me?

Mr. Goldsmith. What about the second tape? There are

two tapes we are talking about.

Ms. Goodpasture. YOu said what about the second tape.

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, that is what I said.

This seems to suggest that while the first tape had

been erased, the second tape has not been erased.

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. This cable is dated November 23, 1963.

What happened to the tape that was in existence on November

23, 1963?

Ms. Goodpasture. I do not think that it was still in

existence in November, 1963 but I think that it still was in

existence when the tape from the second call came back to us.

But the first one, we discovered, had been erased.

Mt. Goldsmith.

This says, "station unable to compare

voice as first tape erased prior receipt second call." Why

does not the cable say instead --.

Ms. Goodpasture. They both were erased. I do not know.

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Mr. Goldsmith. I recalled earlier that your testimony

was that you looked for the tapes and that you could not

find the first one. That also suggests that this second one,

in fact, was found.

Was the

second tape found?

Ms. Goodpasture. Would you repeat that, please?

Mr. Goldsmith. Your testimony earlier was that you

looked for the tapes but you were unable to find the first

tape.

You did not say that you were unable to find either

tape •

You said that you were unable to find the first tape.

That, again, suggests that the second tape was found.

Ms. Goodpasture. No, I do not think I was able to find

any of the tapes that had Lee Oswald's calls on them. I found

the original transcripts, but

I could not find the tapes that

had those calls.

Mr. Goldsmith. The calls in question came in between

September 27 and October 1, 1963, is that corréct?

Ms Goodpasture. The first call?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Ms • Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. The first call came in, as it turns

out, September 27th. The last call that was attributed to

Oswald came in October Ist... So we have a timespan here of five

or six days in which the calls came in, and your testimony is

that the first tape was erased prior to the receipt of the

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second call, yet earlier, you indicated that the normal time

lag was two weeks.

Here we have a tape being erased well before the normal

time lag. Do you have any explanation for that?

Ms. Goodpasture. No.

MI. Goldsmith. Referring to page 28, Stack C, could

you identify this document?

Ms. Goodpasture. It is a copy of the cable sent from

Mexico to Washington, CIA Headquarters.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date on it?

Ms. Goodpasture, The date on it is 23 November 1963.

Mr. Goldsmith. Directing your attention to paragraph

4 of this particular document, would you please read that?

Ms. Goodpasture. Douglas j. Findglass who did transcrip-

tion said Oswald is identical to person speaking broken

Russian who called from Cuban Embassy 28 September to Soviet

Embassy •

And that, I think, was taken from the information in this

transcript, B-1, line 151.

Mr. Goldsmith. Your response then is that - i w

Ms. Goodpasture.? I think that was taken from this

statement in the October 1 transcript,

MI. Goldsmith. At any time after the assassination of

the President, did anyone go to Boris Tarasoff who is the

person referred to, whose pseudonym was Douglas Findglass -

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at any time after the assassination did anyone

go to MI.

Tarasoff and ask him whether the person speaking in these

conversations was the same person?

Ms • Goodpasture. I did not, but I did not see it.

The person who saw him was Herb Minell and that was his case

officer.: The outside person for the electronic surveillance

delivered tapes to me, but he did not

give them guidance or

supervision. That was given to him by Mr. Minell, who would

have been the one who would have gone to him and talked to him

about this

Mr. Goldsmith. This paragraph number 4 seems to suggest,

does it not, that Findglass was actually specifically asked

whether Oswald was the same person appearing in each conversa-

tion.

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Ms. Goodpasture. It could be interpreted that way or

it could also have been taken from this other transcript.

MI. Goldsmith. And finally, I would like you to compare

the statement in paragraph 4 of this cable with paragraph 2

on page 22,

(Pause)

Paragraph 4 indicates that Findglass said that Oswald

is identical with the person in paragraph 1 speaking broken

Russian, Yet the earlier cable on page 22, the second para-

graph -- this is your cable - you report that the station was

unable to compare the voices. Is there any way to resolve the

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inconsistency?

Ms. Goodpasture, The only explanation is

the one I made

previously, is that the two tapes were still not available at

that time to compare and we had to take the transcriber's

word for it.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would also like to point out that

paragraph 2, the very last line, the first two words, it says

"probably Oswald." Is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Page 22?

Mr. Goldsmith. Page 22, the second paragraph, thellast

line, it says "probably Oswald."

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. This cable is Mexico 7023.

Then, two cables later, 7025, the fourth paragraph, it

says Douglas J. Findglass, who did transcriptions, says

Oswald is identical. We no longer have any words of qualifica

tions.

I am referring now to page 29, paragraph 4.

Ms • Goodpasture®

What page is the other one?

MI. Goldsmith. Page 29, paragraph 4. It says, Findglass,

who did transcription, says Oswald is identical. The earlier

cable says, "probably Oswald. Unable to compare voice as

first tape erased prior to receipt of the second."

Two cables later, it says that Findglass says Oswald is

identical with the person speaking broken Russian who called

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from the Cuban Embassy on September 28th.

What happened between the time that Mexico 7023 was sent

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MS. Goodpasture. The only explanation I can give is

that we went over the files again and we found the references

that the transcriber had made, the statements that he had

made, that it was the same person. Oh, MI. Minell could have

gone out and talked with him.

In your interview with MI. Minell, I am sure that he

would remember if he did.

MI. Dodd. Let me interrupt for one second.

Miss Goodpasture, at the time that you were sitting down

and having discussions over these November 23 - over this

23 November, 1963, when you were sitting down and comparing

these two memorandum; was MI. Tarasoff ever present in the

preparation of these memos?

Ms.: Goodpasture. Did MI. Tarasoff ever --

Mr.lDodd. Was he present during the preparations of

these memos and these discussions you were having?

Ms, Goodpasture. You mean this one?

MI. Dodd. I am talking about page 22, the memorandum

on which you were the authorizing officer, the memorandum

involving paragraph 4 on page 29 where MI. Findglass says

that. Oswald is identical

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Ms. Goodpasture. No, he was not present.

Mr. Dodd. He was not present for any of those discus-

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Ms. Goodpasture. NO.

The reason was that he was located outside of the

Embassy and these were not taken outside.

Mr. Dodd. Did you ever personally speak to Mr. Tarasoff?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes, I have spoken to him personally.

Mr. Dodd. Did you speak to him at the time?

Ms • Goodpasture. No. I was not in touch with him at

this time?

MI. Dodd. Did you speak to him - how did you know he

compared the voices?

Ms • Goodpasture.

Pardon me?

Mr. Dodd. How do you know he compared the voices if

you did not speak to him?

Ms. Goodpasture. I took it from this transcript, I

think, from a statement made here that he typed himself, the

P. 1-B is a copy of a transcript prepared by Tarasoff, on his

typewriter.

Mr. Dodd: let us suspend for a second.

(Pause)

Go ahead.

MI, Goldsmith. Probably you will not believe this.

only have a few more questions.

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Turning to page 30 of the documents in Stack. C, this

is a duplicate of Mexico number 7025, is that correct?

Ms• Goodpasture. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. This is the same cable that in paragraph

4 makes a reference to Findglass saying that Oswald is identi-

cal with the person who spoke broken Russian involved in the

Cuban Embassy on September 28th, is that correct?

Ms: Goodpasture. Wait a minute, I am not following you,

page 30?

MI. Goldsmith. Turn to page 30. That is a duplicate

of 7025.

That is the Mexico copy of 7025.

Ms. Goodpasture.

Mexico 7025, right.

Mr. Goldsmith. This is your copy, the one that you

referred to earlier.

On page 28 and 29 was the copy that

went to headquarters, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. We are talking about the same

cable now. In each case, paragraph 4 makes the same reference

to Oswald's being identical, et cetera, et cetera. Who was

the authenticating officer, page 32, I believe.

Ms. Goodpasture. I am.:

MI. Goldsmith. Tuming back to page 23, which refers

to Mexico 7023,lwho is the authenticating officer of that

cable?

Ms. Goodpasture. I am.

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Mr. Goldsmith.

Yet, in the first cable, you say

"probably Oswald.

Station unable compare voice as first tape

erased prior receipt second call." And in the second cable:

you state, "Oswald is identical," without any language of

qualification.:

Ms• Goodpasture. I said that the transcriber said he

was identical, right?

Mr. Goldsmith. Did anything happen?

Ms. Goodpasture. In the other one, we were unable to

have the tapes for someone else to compare them, for other

people to listen to them or to send them to headquarters for

them tolisten to them, but we did have on record from this

transcript that he had prepared that Tarasoff said that the

calls were made by the same. man.

MI. Goldsmith. You have no explanation for why the

Oswald tapes would have been erased within six days of their

receipt by the Mexico City station as opposed to within the

normal two-week period.

Ms. Goodpasture. No, I cannot explain it.

Mr. Goldsmith. One final question. Have you discussed

the testimony that you have given us today, have you discussed

that with anyone prior to coming here today?

Ms, Goodpasture. Have I discussed the testimony?

Mr. Goldsmith, Have you discussed the nature of your

testimony with anyone prior to your coming here today?

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Ms. Goodpasture. The only discussion I had was a

confusion about my coming up, which I discussed when I

arrived, and there was a misunderstanding of my being brought

up here.

Mr. Goldsmith.

I am aware of that.

Have you discussed the substance of your testimony with

anybody, of what you thought would be your testimony with

anyone?

Ms, Goodpasture. No, I have not talked with anyone since

I left here yesterday•

Mr. Goldsmith.

Since you left the Committee's offices

yesterday, is that correct?

Ms. Goodpasture. That is right. I left your office

yesterday:

MI. Goldsmith. I have nothing further. Thank you.

very much

MI. Chairman?

MI. Doda: Mr. Preyer, do you have any questions?

MI. Preyer. I have no further questions at this time.

MI. Dodd: Mrs. Goodpasture, first of all, I would like

to request of you that you leave your address or addresses

with the Legislative Counsel öf the CIA from time to time.

so if we

feel a need to get back in touch with you, we can

contact them and they can locate you for us. If you would

do that, I would appreciate it.

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Secondly, I want you to know that we are grateful to

you for appearing before your Committee. You have been help-

ful and we are grateful to you for that.

I want to apologize to you if I seemed to be a little

abrasive on that one point, which is that we are trying to

get to the truth of this as quickly as we can. Under our

rules of this Committee, we give each witness an opportunity

at the conclusion of their testimony to take five minutes and

sum up or add any additional information that you feel might

be helpful to this Committee or to correct what you may feel

are any inconsistencies of confusion over testimony that you

have

given this committee, and I will ask you now to take

advantage, if you would so desire, of five minutes or so to

make that summation.

Ms, Goodpasture. The only thing that I could think of

right now is that I feel that some of the papers here are

probably out of context and still have some errors in them,

and those errors that come up, I am sure theyeare human

errors and there may be more of them.

I know in this one draft of background material, I just

guessed at the dates when people were there as well as names,

as well as much of the information about the situation in

Mexico at that time, because it was to be used as a framework

for trying to pull together the documents that would be needed

to present a true picture of what the agency had in their

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files or the situation that was there at that time.

That is about all I can think of now.

MI. Dodd. Thank you.

All right, Miss Goodpasture, you are excused as a

witness. Again, on behalf ofether Committee, I express my

gratitude to you.

Mr. Preyer.

I want to congratulate you on your stamina

Miss Goodpasture.

Mr. Dodd. Unless there is any further business before

this Subcommittee, we will stand in recess until further

call of the Chair.

(Whereupon, at 3:45 pim, the Subcommittee recessed to

reconyene at the call of the chair.)

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