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TITLE:

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DATE: 03/25/1976

PAGES:

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SUBJECTS :

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FROM

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DATE : 03/25/76

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SUBJECTS : SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY

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NATIONAL SECURITY INEORMATION

Unauthorized Disclosure Subject-

to Criminal Sanctions:

Vol. 2 OF 3

The Huitrì States Sruate R2873

Report of Proceedings

Hearing held before

Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental

Operations With Respect

to Intelligence Activities

Thursday,

March 25, 1976.

Washington, D. C

(Stenotype Tape, and Waste turned over

to the Committee for destruction):

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WARD & PAUL

410 FIRST STREET, S. E.

WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003:

(202) 544-6000

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COMMITTEE MEETING

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Thursday, March 25, 1976

United States. Senate,

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Select Committee to Study Governmental

Operations with Respect to

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Intelligence Activities,

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Washington, D. C.

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The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:43 o'clock

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p.m., in Room S-407, the Capitol, the Honorable Frank Church

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(Chairman) presiding.

•13

Present:

Senators Church (presiding), Mondale, Huddleston,

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Hart of Michigan, Morgan,

Hart of Colorado, Tower, Mathias:

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Baker and Schweiker.

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Also present: William G. Miller, Staff Director; Frederick

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A. O. Scwharz, Jr., Chief

Counsel; and Charles Kirbow,

Elizabeth Culbreath, Michael Madican, Charles Lombard, William

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Bader, Ted Rolson, Burt Wides, Walter Ricks, Rick Inderfurth,

John Bayly, David Aaron, Elliot Maxwell, Joseph Dennin,

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Margaret Carpenter, Martha Talley, Paul Wallach and Jim

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Johnston, Professional Staff Members.

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PROCEEDINGS

The Chairman. We will soon have a quorum. Why don't

we begin with the Recommendation No. 43 on page 77, having

to do with academics.

My understanding is

that this recommendation has been

redrafted along the lines

of the Committee's recommendations,

and

as it now stands it calls for the CIA academics and the

institution to be informed, and for any student being recruited:

to be so informed.

There is a choice in the latter case in informing him

before he is paid or informing him before he leaves the u.s.

Will you explain that to me, please?

Mr. Aaron. In the course of our discussion aböut the

recruitment of students off campuses, there were two cate-

gories of concern. One

was for the integrity of the institu-

tions themselves, and the second was, in turn, for the

students that might be involved.

To take the second one first, the Committee received

• testimony that some foreign students recruited as agents for

the CIA were brought into kind of a holding status at

a certain

point in which they were working for, if you will, CIA

proprietaries or CIA front organizations where they might

conduct some operational activity, provide some information,

under the impression that they were not working for the CIA

but for a company or, I think as one put it, I think, a group

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of investors.

Concern was expressed by the Committee in considering

this testimony that this might be rather severe for the student

once he discovered

the

fact he had been working for the CIA,

or should his government

find that out, so that it was an

element of coercion to hire somebody under, if you will, false

pretenses.

That second proviso,

then, in effect says that we may

pitch and recruit a student

as an agent, but you must, when you

do that, when you really

bring him into an operational relation-

ship with the Agency, he

should be so informed and not brought

into this sort of --

The Chairman. Let'

go off the record.

(Discussion off the

record.

The Chairman. The

question that I have on this recommen-

dation is why shouldn't

the

foreign student being recruited

by the CIA be informed of his relationship with the CIA

at the time. that that relationship is established?

Why do you condition it upon payment or leaving the

country?

' Senator Huddleston.

Well, I was going to say there are

many, many initial contacts that do not advance maybe much

further than that, and

for

the CIA to have to be exposed maybe

on each of those might not be reasonable. What we have tried

to do is to make the wittingness be known about the

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they

are to perform some

service. Up to that time they are

still maybe prospects,

where they may not have

been recruited.

The Chairman:

adopt of these two options?

which do you think the Committee should

Mr. Aaron.

Actually, one could use both of these. I think

the point is that the danger to the student, if there is any,

comes

when he. leaves the United States, either to return to

his own country or perhaps someplace else, but the commitment

or involvement which ought to be witting really needs to come

when he starts being paid

when he becomes in fact, or has

a real relationship with the Agency. You could

really establish

both standards, because

ilt

might well be that he could leave

the country but not have

yet been paid, and not really have

a relationship that was

anything more than kind of an asso-

ciation or an option,.

something of that character.

The Chairman. Well

what is the will of the Committee

as to these two options?

Senator Huddleston.

well, this represents a distillation

of what we have been proposing as Senator Mondale develops

for us, I believe, and I would move that we adopt this report,

and use both of these, an either/or.

The Chairman. Whichever comes first, huh, either before

he is given payment of

kind or leaves the United States,

whichever may occur first

Would that be

satisfactory to the Committee?

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All right. Without

objection, then, that will be the

decision of the Committee:

What else do you have?

Mr. Aaron. We have two other recommendations.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Chairman, could I be recorded

in opposition to this?

The Chairman. Yes,

Senator Hart of Colorado is recorded

as in opposition.

Mr. Madigan.

Senator, there is a proxy in opposition as

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well.

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The Chairman. Senator Baker wants to be recorded in

opposition as well.

Senator Mathias.

I would, I think Senator Goldwater had

a very strong proxy that t

read into the record on this subject

at the last meeting.

Mr. Kirbow. Against

restricting any use of academics.

Senator Mathias.

I don't have a proxy with him today, but

I feel his position ought to be noted.

The Chairman. Very well, then, with those particular

reservations made part of

the record, the Committee will

approve the amended Recommendation No. 43.

We move then to Recommendation 45 on page 78.

Mr. Aaron. We attempted to redraft this along the lines

as we were instructed, I

believe.

As it came out, it would prohibit the subsidy of any

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writing, publication, distribution within the United States

or its territories, of lany book, magazine, article and so forth.

It has been pointed out

that this formulation would prevent

the writing of a book, even in a foreign language, within the

United States, to be published abroad and distributed abroad,

or any such materials

from

being published within the United

States, even if they were distributed abroad.

Now, that may be too restrictive and go beyond what the

Committee intended, and

therefore we wanted to raise this

here, to get a better understanding of what we were attempting

to accomplish.

As I understand.

what we were - it was not clear, but

it is possible that what

the Committee had in mind was that

any writing, publication

for distribution in the United States

would have been the appropriate formulation for this, and if

that is correct, we can

make a very easy fix.

Senator Morgan.

Why

wouldn't it?

The Chairman. Why

wouldn't it accomplish it if we say

that by statute the CIA should be prohibited from subsidizing

the writing or production

or distribution within the United

States or its territories

of any book, magazine, article,

publication, film, or

video or audio tape unless attributed

to. the CIA.

Wouldn't that take!

care of it?

Mr. Aaron. If that is what the Committee intends, that

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would take care of it.

Senator Mondale.

Publicly attributed.

Mr. Aaron. Publicly:

Senator Huddleston:

That is getting at what really we

are trying to do.

The Chairman. How about the balance of 45, "nor should

the CIA be permitted to undertake any activity to accomplish.

indirectly such distribution within the United States or its

territories.

Well, I think that

follows and should be a part of it.

Very well:

Senator Mathias.

Mr!

Chairman, I wonder, while we are in

this area, if you could refresh my recollection, whether

"grantees" in No. 44 applies to both foreign and American

grantees.

Mr. Bader. Yes,

it would, Senator, under this language,

because

the Fulbright

program or the - such government-sponsored

programs to include, too

include foreigners. As I understood

it from the discussion

of

the Committee, the intent here was

to ensure that public funds that were publicly devoted to

a specific purpose were

so:

spent and that was the issue that

was involved here, was

the

appropriated funds for educational

programs be kept to educational programs and not to be used

operationally. But the

language here would certainly include

foreigners.

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Mr. Maxwell. Bill,

would this prohibit the use of any

individual person who is sponsored by an

educational or

cultural program, although not fully funded by the Federal

Government?

Senator Tower. This is a question I wanted to ask.

Could one of our networks pick up a portion of a film

broadcast abroad by the CIA and run it as part of a documentary

to show what they are doing and that kind of thing?

The Chairman. I think the way it has been modified that

is not a problem. This says "by statute the CIA should be

prohibited from subsidizing writings," or production.

Senator Tower. That

what I mean, you are not precluded

from showing it, but it

should not be done under CIA auspices

or government auspices

The Chairman. And it

should not be written for the

purpose of being shown

in

this country.

Senator Tower.

Yes. i!

MI. Aaron. Nor under the indirect clause, I think, nor

should the CIA go to CBS and say "weve got this wonderful

film."

The Chairman. Using

network for the purpose of bringing

it back. That would be

an indirect way, and that would be wrong

also.

Senator Tower.

The Chairman.

I understand, yes.

Well, then, if everybody understands the

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way we have recommended

the change in 45, withcut objection

the Committee approves

it..

Let us go, then,

to

the next subject, the structural

changes, the role of the DCI on page 61..

MI. Aaron. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.

We have one other

question, that would be Recommendation 47. The Committee

agreed to extend --

Mr. Kirbow. Excuse me, Mr. Aaron. Senator Mathias's

question was on recommendation 44.

The Chairman.

Were you satisfied with the answer?

Senator Mathias.

Well, the question that was left

floating was what about a student who is in a program which is

primarily funded by some private institution, although there

may be some small element --

Mr. Maxwell. For instance, any major university that

sponsored an individual coming under 44, which receives

Federal Government funds, might be barred under a broad

reading of 44, and it might be helpful to make that intenti

clearer in 44, if that jis a concern of the Committee.

Mr. Aaron. I think: this goes to the grantee as opposed

to the institution.

Now, if it is true

The Chairman. It is the grantee that is receiving

funds

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Mr. Aaron. If you have a grantee receiving funds from

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more than one source, then he receives them frem more than one

source, but if he is a grantee of a Federal program --

Mr. Maxwell. But the problem is receiving funds through

educational and/or cultural programs.

For instance, if he were totally funded by the University

of Maryland, which received financial support from the United

States Government, arguably he is covered by that. It is not

that he is receiving Federal grants. I think that is the

intention.

Mr. Aaron.

It should

be U.S. Government educational

Mr. Bader. Would that help?

The Chairman. Through

educational and/or cultural

programs sponsored by

the

United States Government.

Wouldn't

that take care of it?

Senator Huddleston!

Well, grantees who are receiving

directly from the United

States Government or through educational

or cultural programs supported by the United States Government.

The Chairman. Sponsored by.

Senator Huddleston.

Well, in other words, whether he is

getting them directly himself as a grantee, or whether he is

receiving them from an educational program that is itself

supported by the Federal

Government.

Senator Mathias.

I

don't want to prolong this, but what

about a program which is really directed right at this

area

which has been referred to, the armed services military

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educational operate?

Mr. Bader. I'm sorry, sir?

Mr. Aaron. Well, let me see if I understand the different

examples. The student leader grant or the political leader

grant that the State Department has where they bring foreigners

to the United States for

a period of time, presumably to

acquaint them with the country and what have you, under this

language those people while on the grant would be immune from

being recruited by the CIA. This doesn't mean that they

couldn't recruit them at some other point in their careers, but

that during the period of that grant they would not be in

effect brought here and used for that purpose. That is, I

think, part of the intent of this particular provision.

Senator Mathias.

Let me give you another example. Say

you have an Iranian naval

officer who comes over here to

Fort McNair.

Is he fair game?

Mr. Miller. That is not educational or cultural. It

would be military.

Senator Huddleston. I believe if he were going through

the War College --

Senator Tower. If he were going through the National

War College, how do you classify that?

Senator Mathias.. He could come to the industrial base

or civilian

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Mr. Kirbow.

He could go to the Industrial College or the

War College.

Senator Schweiker. Can you exclude military training?

Senator Mathias. I don't know. I don't know what you

want.

Senator Huddleston. We are training a lot of them or

we entertain a lot of them.

Senator Schweiker. It seems to me you have to put some

proviso about military training in there.

The Chairman. Well, it depends upon what the policy should

be. I had thought the attempt here was to immunize any foreigner

who comes here on a program sponsored by the Government of the

United States and receives a grant for that program, to

immunize him during that

period from being recruited by the

CIA.

Senator Schweiker.

purposes, then we know

Well, if he is here for military

it

is a military relationship, I would

think that is suspect.

The Chairman. Would you want him subject to recruitment?

Senator Schweiker. Well, if he comes over here militarily!

you are so close to him,

what is the difference?

Mr. Aaron. Well, I think the point of the prohibition

really is this, that these programs are created for one

particular purpose. They are considered by the Congress for

that particular purpose and the funds are voted for that

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particular purpose.. If: the programs are then used for another

purpose by the Government,

that

was considered and suggested

that that second purpose should not be used.

Now, if you want to exempt certain categories here and

say, well, the military is

a different thing, you can do that.

You can find a way to express that.

The Chairman. Well, it could be done. If you want to

recruit foreign military officers, we can bring them over

to put them through the War College.

Mr. Miller.

What other training?

Senator Huddleston. Well, we have a steady stream at

Fort Knox, Kentucky of military people. I don't know what kind

of training. Most of them are, of course, are from friendly

nations to start with.

I don't know, you: know, military.. Once a person puts on

a uniform, he becomes fair game in a number of ways.

He gives

up a lot of protections that civilians have.

Senator Schweiker. You allow him to recruit -- under

other policies here we allow them to recruit foreign military

officers because I think that's an even more valid relationship

than the students, but I make it clear that what we don't

want to do, which

is to abort our honest to goodness cultural

exchange and other programs.

The Chairman. This' could be done by saying "By statute

the CIA should be prohibited from using operationally grantees

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programs is much clearer.

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Senator Schweiker::

Can we talk about Defense and military

training programs at the

same time? It seems to me that's

the criteria, bringing a guy over here and educating him on

defense and military must be to the advantage of our military,

so you know what the relationship is to begin with. You are

not unwittingly using the guy: You are pretty witting.

If the guy goes

töi the American War College, he is pretty

fair game.

The Chairman. You

can write an exception for the American

War College and all of the military and civilian personnel

receiving training under

the auspices of the United States

armed

services who are

fair game.

(General laughter.)

Senator Huddleston,.

Except I agree with Dave, that is

a little awkward to zero

in on this particular group. Couldn't

we find some way -=

Mr. Kirbow.

Mr. Chairman, I think it is not intended

this apply

only to

foreign students coming this way, you

include all American students going in the other direction,

or under any other grant.

Mr. Aaron. The intention of the provision initially, as

a matter of fact, its primary effect was for American students

traveling abroad.

Senator Tower. Well, I see no problem with that. I know

•I don't have the votes here, but --

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The Chairman. Which part do you have?

Senator Tower. Well, not being able to use American

students abroad on some grant to gather intelligence, when

most of the people the damned Soviets send over here on these

cultural exchanges are

really clued into the government

program, indoctrinated and briefed thoroughly before they get

here.

I am not going to

tie our hands like that. The rest

of you can, but I'm not

going to.

I will write a vigorous dissent on that.

Senator Morgan.

May

I make a comment on

that?

I'm inclined to agree, and I'm also inclined to agree

that we are going so far

in our foreign intelligence that

we are endangering the whole report, so you make that kind of

an argument on the floor

of the Senate on this and on two or

three other things.

I!

not picking at any of them. I

am

just sort of accepting

the

recommendations of the Subcommittee,

but my reaction has been

that maybe we are getting a little

bit so far afield that we

may endanger the acceptance of our

whole report.

The Chairman. Senator Huddleston?

Senator Huddleston.:

I would just say this, that the

Subcommittee has been cognizant of that situation.. I think it is

because of that that some of these recommendations are already

softer than some of us thought would be appropriate, and this

is one of the fields. There was a considerable amount of support

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of the idea that academics be off limits, period, and students

in order to protect the integrity of our entire academic

community, and it is the realization that if we continued to

close the possibilities for recruitment, and the adverse

effect that that would have, maybe, on our ability to gather

intelligence, that some

of us backed off of this, what would

be the optimum, we think,

position to take. So this already

represents somewhat of

retreat from the principle that some

would like to see

established, and in this case I think we

are again faced with the

question of whether or not we want

a government-sponsored

program to enjoy a high level of integrity

so that the people who

are participating in it and the American

taxpayer who is supporting it can have some confidence that it

is doing what it was set out to do and what the publicly.

announced purposes of it

are.

And if we don't do

that, if we permit it to be used as

an operational intelligence operation, then it seems to me like

we ought to announce that, that that ought to be one of the

purposes so stated in the grant to start with, while we are

likely to get an education, it is also likely if we can we

will have you gather intelligence for us.

Senator Morgan. Well, Dee, I think you are getting off

base for us.

There is nothing that says they are required to

do it.

Senator Huddleston.

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Senator Morgan. In other words, we are not going to

condition this grant on

Senator Huddleston. Well --

Senator Morgan. Let me finish out, now. What you are

leading up to is you are

saying we are going to condition this

grant on your cooperation with other governmental agencies.

Senator Huddleston. I am saying that is not beyond the

realm of possibility in some

cases, if we don't put some

prohibition.

Senator Morgan. Well, I think there may be times,

especially in the light of what we heard in the past year,

when, you know, we might make that assumption, but I don't

think that on the whole when you are dealing with the United

States Government that you can really assume -

Senator Huddleston. But you can't assume he is not,

either.

The Chairman.

But what worries me is you get

a student

who in good faith goes abroad for the purpose of study and

qualifies for a Government grant, and he depends upon that

money and then he, when he gets over there and wants to complete

his studies, he is approached, and he can be approached in

such a way that he can be made to feel that if he does not

throw in with the CIA and do this and that, he may find that

the grant will be cut off or he can't complete the study as he

intended.

He feels a certain dependency upon the money that

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he is receiving, and he has an expectation he wants to fulfill.

And thus he is in a very vulnerable position when he is

approached.

Senator Morgan. Well, that is a persuasive argument, but

let me ask you, have we had any evidence that that sort of

thing has happened?

The Chairman. Well, I don't know.

Senator Morgan. Well, it is a very persuasive argument,

but I just wonder if we should, in the absence of abuse on

that part, whether or not we should go this far.

The Chairman. What about it, Mr. Bader?

Mr. Bader.

Mr. Chairman, I might say in partial response

to Senator Tower's remarks that the Agency's basic instruction

for the operational use of individuals, 50-10, specifically.

prohibits the operational use of Fulbright grantees. They have

already made that decision in 1967, and reconfirmed in 1973.

I assume part of that came from agitation at the time in '67

and Senator Fulbright's own determination that that program not

be used for operational purposes.

It was the original intent of this language to extend

that prohibition, which is now a matter of public recora, this-

actually, that part of the instruction is in the public record

now under the Freedom of Information Act, that part of 50-10

that talks about Fulbright grantees. It was the original

intent of the recommendation that is now before you to extend

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that prohibition on Fulbright grantees to all of those under

the Fulbright-Hayes legislation. Under the specifics of the

Agency's interpretation, it makes a distinction between those

students, or graduate students, or professors selected by the

Board of Foreign Scholarships, and the rest -- and the rest

includes cultural leader grants and the like.

Now, perhaps it might be the sensible thing in the

language like this to confine it to the Fulbright-Hayes Act,

which is the basic legislation which deals with this.

Senator Schweiker. How many others would you have outside

of that? Would you have a lot of other programs?

Mr. Bader. Other programs?

Senator Schweiker.

What percent of the total picture is

the Fulbright-Hayes Act?

Mr. Bader. I really wouldn't know, Senator. I think it

is the major part of it, actually. You could have a National

Endowment for the Humanities fellowship in which a person would

go overseas, and this, under the language we now have before

you, that would include those individuals.

The Chairman. Well, I can see how vulnerable a grantee

might be when approached, and if we have already written

into law a prohibition that relates to the Fulbright scholars,

I should think it ought to apply to any others that are

receiving educational or cultural grants from the United

States.

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Senator Tower. That is not a law, that is a regulation.

Mr. Aaron. And CIA's own regulation.

The Chairman. But then it was

adopted as part of the law,

I thought you said.

Mr. Bader. No, sir. I said it has been made public

through the Freedom of Information Act. This is an internal

directive of the Agency, and as the Senators know, those.

directives are certainly subject to change, so there really

are, in effect, two basic parts of this recommendation. One

was to commit the present internal prohibitions of the CIA to

law, and then to extend it, and the issue before the Committee,

in addition to whether there should be an extension, is sort

of how far and what language should be used to portray or

convey that prohibition?

Senator Baker. Mr.

Chairman, do we have anything from

the Agency on this?

Senator Huddleston.

think you've got to weigh, to some

extent, the value of the two programs, of our cultural exchange

programs' importance. I think thepublic knowledge of any one

individual becomes known as a spy who is associated with a

program, it has a devastating effect, in my judgment, on the

program and on all students who are participating in it. I

just think the risk is too great.

Senator Tower. Well, my question at that point would be

to what extent does our cultural exchange program impact on

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people behind the Iron Curtain, to convince them as people that

we are nice folks, that they ought to influence their government

to be a little bit more friendly toward us?

It doesn't have

any impact.

at all in a totalitarian state, none.

It is really a one way street.

Now, I am all for cultural exchange, simply because I

like to watch Russian ballet dancers, especially females, but

the fact of the matter is cultural change does more to soften

up the American public toward the Iron Curtain than the

other way around.

The Chairman. That is an argument as to the merits of

cultural exchange, and how you view ballerinas, but the question

here we face is whether or not we should put American students

in a position where they feel they must -

Senator Tower. I don't think they must be coerced.

The Chairman.

But there is an element of intimidation

involved if they are receiving a grant from the government.

Senator Tower.. Well, I would favor a specific prohibition

against making that a condition of getting a grant or scholarship

of some sort.

Senator Baker. Or continuing one.

Senator Tower. Or continuing one.

Senator Hart of Michigan.

well, John, what do you say

to Dee's point? If my roommate turns out to be a spy, it is

automatically assumed I am, and every guy in the outfit. What

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does this do to the American that is over there, all of

them? I don't think that is right.

Senator Tower. Well, I think in many instances American

operations abroad that have been completely innocent have been

labeled as spy operations for propaganda purposes by the other

side, and they will do that if they choose to. They will not

do it if they choose not to do it.

The Chairman. But you have many of these students who are

not inside Russia or in a Communist country. We have educational

and cultural programs in Third World countries and in the

western world.

Senator Tower. I understand that.

The Chairman. And there, if someone is caught engaging in

a CIA action of some kind, then everybody is contaminated.

The whole thing then becomes suspect in France or England or

wherever it might be.

Senator Tower. What if the grantee comes to CIA and

says, I have made some contacts over here that I think would

be of value in terms of passing intelligence along to you?

Are you going to turn him down and say, no, you are on a

Fulbright grant, we can't let you do that?

Senator Huddleston. No, they could use his information

to

contact somebody else.

He would not necessarily be operational

Mr. Bader. , Operational use, under the Agency's definition,

has two. major elements to it.. First is that the purposes

to

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be

accomplished, and objectives, are established by the Agency,

and

the second is

that the individual involved is tasked to

do that, ordered

to do it, if you please.

Operational use does not, by the Agency's definition,

involve individuals who would come to the Central Intelligence

Agency to voluntarily give whatever information that they.

think would be of value to the Agency, the kind of information

that the Contacts Division normally would like to have.

Senator Tower. Yes, but once having done that, the Agency

determines this person is valuable and they observe this

person

and they

put him under a control officer.

Mr. Bader. Then he would come under this condition.

That

would be operational use!*

Senator Huddleston.

It would not include a debriefing of

him when he came back. .

MI.

Kirbow. Nor could he be asked to go to a single meeting

more and report back on the very same subject that he just

reported on, which might be a critical target to the United

States Governments' national security.

Mr. Bader. Once he is operational, he has to accomplish a

particular task or purpose, then he is operationally used under

the terms.

Senator Tower. Even if he initiates the contact vith

the Agency in the first place.

MI.

Bader: Only, Senator, if there is a second stage in

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this, if the individual

Senator Tower. I know.

The second stage may be the most

important.

Mr. Bader. It certainly may, and at that stage, under the

Agency's definition, he would be operationally --

Senator Huddleston. I can't believe the Agency wouldn't

have another entre of some sort.

Senator Iower. What kind of widespread abuse are we

trying to prevent?

Has there been widespread abuse?

Mr. Bader:

No, sir,, there has not.

Senator Tower. There has not been.

Mr. Aaron. This occurs.

Mr. Bader. This occurs,. yes.

Senator Hart of Michigan. What is the benefit - there

has been no abuse, but what benefit?

Senator Mondale. It's not - that's not the word. It's

not no abuse. It's not widespread.

Mr. Bader. • The term is

"not widespread."

Senator Tower. I said "widespread."

Mr. Bader. Yes,

said "widespread."

Senator Hart of Michigan. The question is, what

benefits? Do we know?

Senator Huddleston.

That is very difficult to ascertain.

Senator Tower. Significant abuse? Any record of abuse?

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What record of abuse do we have?

Senator Hart of Michigan..

Any record of significant

benefit.

Mr. Bader.

A record of significant abuse in the sense

that Fulbright students or those under American educational

programs have

been used' operationally. There is an extensive

record over the years, but it is not of major importance to

the Agency.

The Chairman. Well!

apparently the Agency itself has

restricted or has put the Fulbright scholars off limits,

right?

Mi. Bader. That is

correct, sir:

The Chairman. Well,

then,

Senator Hart of Michigan.

That must be the result of a

conclusion that either they were not beneficial of they didn't

want to poison the program.

Why doesn't that reasoning apply to these others?

The Chairman. Well, I think it does, but we might as

well come to a vote on it and decide whether we want to keep

it or strike it.

Senator Huddleston..

Well, to bring it to a vote, Mr.

Chairman, I would move

that. Paragraph 44 --

Senator Baker. Mr. Chairman, I would just kind of make

one inquiry, I believe,

and I already know the answer to it,

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that even though we are voting on this section, I believe. the

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arrangement we had previously, that is to say, that none of

this is final, and certainly not until we hear the comments

of the Agency.

Is that still observed?

The Chairman. Yes,

that is still the situation. Nothing

becomes final until the final vote is taken, and anything can

be reconsidered.

Agency.

Senator Baker. Then we are going to have comments from the

When, Bill, tomorrow?

Mr. Miller. Staff is

going to get them tomorrow afternoon

out there, and they are going to

give it to us

in writing, I

think, tomorrow afternoon

The Chairman. I suspect that the Agency will oppose

many of these recommendations.

Senator Huddleston.

No question about that.

The Chairman. I hope that won't be the single basis

upon which we decide for of against.

Senator Huddleston.

My motión includes, Mr. Chairman,

that we exempt the military.

Senator Schweiker.: You say it will include --

Senator Huddleston. That will be in my motion, in 44, that

we exclude foreign military people.

The Chairman. All right.

The motion is made that Recommendation No. 44 be approved

with the exception that it does not apply to foreign military

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personnel coming into this country, is that right?

Senator Huddleston.

Yes.

The Chairman. Let's have a vote.

Do you want to call the roll, Mr. Miller?

Mr. Miller. Yes.

Mr. Hart of Michigan.

Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Mondale.

Senator Mondale. Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston.

Senator Huddleston. Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Morgan.

Senator Morgan. No.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Colorado?

Senator Hart of Colorado.

Aye.

Mr. Miller.

Mr. Baker.

Senator Baker. No.

Mr. Miller.

Mr. Mathias?

Senator Tower. You missed Goldwater.

Goldwater.

Goldwater no by written proxy.

MI. Miller. Mr. Mathias is in the phone booth.

Mr. Schweiker.

Senator Schweiker. Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower?

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Senator Tower.

NO.

MI. Miller. Mr. Church?

The Chairman. Aye.

Senator Tower. I don't think it is going to affect the

outcome, so I ask consent that he be recorded.

Mr. Miller. The ayes have it. It is six tó four.

Mr.

Mathias is still in the phone booth.

Senator Tower. I ask consent that he be allowed to be

recorded. It might change the outcome.

The Chairman. All right.

Let's go to 61 next.

Mr. Aaron. The next issue is on page 78A, Recommendation

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17.

The Committee previously agreed to extend the CIA

prohibitions

on the use of media to the

use of any person

who

regularly contributes material to publications and those

involved directly or indirectly in the editing or setting

policy and direction in the direction of the activities of

U.S. media organizations.

What was unclear was whether this was the recommendation

of the Committee to the CIA that it amend its regulations to do

that, or whether this was to be embodied in statute as had

been recommended in Recommendation 46..

The Chairman. I'm sorry, I have lost you.

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Mr. Aaron. You will find the words "proposed statutory

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CIA prohibition" and you see the words "proposed" and

"statutory" are in brackets, reflecting

uncertainty on our part

as to whether it was the intention of the committee that this

prohibition simply be a CIA regulation or embodied in the

statute, which is recommended in the recommendation of procedures.

The Chairman. Senator Huddleston, do you have any comment

on this?

Senator Huddleston.: I have a personal feeling that when

we go too far statutorily in dealing with the press, that we.

sometimes get on thin ice. I don't know whether it would be

appropriate to make some suggestion here that the press itself

initiate certain standards

and methods. Many of them in the

press believe they ought to have anyhow.

I think the recommendation for the CIA is probably

sufficient.

The Chairman. And

let that be handled as a matter of

CIA regulations.

Senator Huddleston.

Rather than by statute.

The Chairman. Rather than by statute.

Is that acceptable to the Committee?

Senator Tower. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. Would you

repeat the proposition?

The Chairman. The proposition is that the Committee

recommend that the CIA,

by regulation, handle this matter

rather than make it statutory.

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Senator Tower.

Well, I oppose it either by statute or

by regulation, so I would suggest that those who favor the

concept determine whether they want to do it by either statute

or regulation.

I am opposed to doing it by either.

Senator Schweiker. I would like to see it by statute if

we are going to do it.

Senator Baker. Mt. Chairman, does this make any distinction

between domestic media and -- on the media located physically

within the United States and the U.S. media outside the

United States?

The Chairman..

No, it does not. It simply attempts tọ

prevent the CIA from involving itself with personnel who are

part of the U.S. media, whether here or abroad, as I read it.

Senator Tower. Okay, now, let me ask you a question..

What is there is a Reuters reporter in Moscow who is

cooperating with us, and Reuters contributes regularly to u.s.

media?

Senator Schweiker. We spent an hour on that. They are

excluded. We argued that for an hour and I lost the point, so

they would be excluded.

Senator Huddleston. This basically just extends to

CIA's own prohibition that they had initiated against what we

would normally think of as working journalists, and includes

into it the executives and editors and those who may be

freelancing.

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Senator Tower.

What if we got a freelancer for Time

Magazine who is indeed a

foreign national? Does he come under

this prohibition?

Senator Huddleston. If he has some regular association with

Time he would be.

Mr. Aaron. Under the Agency's current regulations and

own prohibitions,

a foreign journalist working for Time Magazine

oversees would be prohibited from being used by them for

operational purposes.

That is their own position today. This

would

extend that prohibition to someone who is, what in the

trade jargon is a stringer, or --

Senator Tower. This would include a stringer?

Senator Schweiker. It wouldn't cover Reuters or some

other foreign news

service.

Mr. Aaron. It would also apply to a foreigner who was,

for example, if there were such a thing as an editor in the

Paris Bureau of Time Magazine. I don't think they work that

way, but say there were such a person, it would apply to him

as well.

Senator Tower. What about the Paris Trib? What about

that?

MI. Aaron. A U.S.

media organization.

Mr. Kirbow. It is

excluded.

Senator Schweiker.

That is a subsidiary of an American

company .

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Senator Tower: What about Reader's Digest Selecciones,

which is their Spanish publication? Is that included?

Mr. Aaron. \I assume so.

The Chairman. Well, according to the CIA's own restric-

tions, it is excluded now, except this would simply

extend the exclusion to

stringers, those who do not have

regular employment.

Senator Huddleston. And editors and executives.

The Chairman. And editors and executives.

Mr. Bader. The present restriction, Senator Tower,

that has been extended by the Agency in February, went to

accredited journalists, accredited to U.S. media organizations.

The only difference between this prohibition and the one

already assumed by the Agency is that this moves further

accreditation

to include those who regularly contribute to

U.S. media organizations or are a part of their structure.

Mr. Kirbow.

The management structure.

MI. Bader. The management structure, whether they

contribute material to or are involved

directly or indirectly

in the preparation of material.

The Chairman. Well, I think if we are going to do it,

we had better decide on the policy. If we want to keep the

CIA out of U.S. media both at home and abroad, and we want

to extend that to stringers as well, then I think it ought

to be done by statute rather than just: a recommendation by

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the Committee that the CIA do it, because the CIA regulations

may or may not issue, and they can be changed at any time

without notice.

Senator Tower. Well, Mr. Chairman, aren't we talking about

two different things?

I don't mean foreign, you know, our foreign correspondents

abroad writing CIA propaganda

for American publications.

We

are talking about operations here, operational use, not use

to write some article that the CIA wants planted in an American

publication. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking

about using him to gather intelligence, and it goes back

directly to the CIA which doesn't serve as a publication.

The Chairman.

But operational use can include many things,

including writing propaganda and usually would if it involved

journalists.

Senator Tower. Well

I think we have already got a

prohibition on that.

Mr. Bader. The prohibition that the Central Intelligence

Agency has

self-imposed extends across the line from cover

to placement to all operational use of individuals, accredited

individuals to American media organizations. As I say, the

difference between what the Agency has already taken upon

itself

and what this recommendation involves is this recommen-

dation extends it to individuals who are not

accredited.

There are a number - the figures that the Committee has

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which have been authenticated by the Agency, that there are

some 60 Americans who are affiliated or are part of American.

media organizations around the world, part of a larger network

of some 400 journalists and the like who are part of the Agency's

overall media asset program, and of those 60 under the Agency's

present prohibitions, the ones recently imposed, it would go

to just one third of those individuals.

This prohibition would extend it from the one third to

all because the other two thirds include people that are

under cover, who are in management, and who are not under

the technical term accredited to U.S. media organizations.

Mr. Chairman, I might say if the Committee would look.

at the Recommendation 46 that goes before 47, perhaps it might

bear in mind that the recommendation in 46, which takes the

present Agency prohibitions and says that they should be

established in law, if in 47, if the Committee should so

decide to do it by recommendation, that they change their

internal prohibitions, there will be a contrast between 46

and 47•

The Chairman. Well, let's have a vote. Let's go back

to 46, and I take it that the recommendation is that this

prohibition that the CIA has imposed upon itself ought to

be written in statutory form.

Mr. Bader. That is the recommendation.

The Chairman.

All right. Let's have a vote on that

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first of all, and then we'll take up 47.

Mr. Miller, will you call the roll?

Senator Huddleston. Mr. Chairman, I think I am probably

the only one that has suggested that it should not be statutory.

and I would just point out that that might be a result of the

fact that I am in the media, so I would withdraw that unless

somebody else wants to make that recommendation.

The Chairman. I thought yours went to 47.

This is 46.

Senator Huddleston.

It did, but they both relate to the

media.

The Chairman. Well

let's take a vote on 46, which

would recommend that Congress enact a statute conforming to

the CIA's self-imposed prohibition on U.S. journalists or

foreign journalists accredited to the U.S. media abroad.

Mr. Miller. MI. Haft of Michigan.

Senator Hart of Michigan. Did you want a roll call?

The Chairman. Yes

Senator Hart of Michigan..

Aye.

MI. Miller. Mr. Mondale.

Senator Mondale.

Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston?

Senator Huddleston

Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Mogan.

Senator Morgan. Aye.

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Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Colorado.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Baker.

Senator Baker. Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Goldwater.

Senator Tower.

No by proxy.

Mr. Miller.

Mr. Mathias.

(No response.)

Mr. Miller.

Mr. Schweiker.

Senator Schweiker.

Aye.

Mr. Miller.

Mr. Tower.

Senator Tower. NO.

Mr. Miller.

Mr. Church..

The Chairman. Aye.

Senator Tower.

Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent

that

Senator Mathias be recorded. It will not be changed.

The Chairman. All right.

Now can we go to 47 and vote it up or down on the

understanding that this recommendation having. to do with

stringers and the use of

executives would not take statutory

form but it would be a recommendation to the CIA without

such regulation.

Ms. Culbreath. Mr. Chairman, could I say just a word, please

sir, with regard to whether it was done by directive or regu-

lation or by statute. Yesterday one of the general recommendation:

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that we discussed and

the

staff was asked to rewrite went to

the question of any changes or waivers of Agency directives

or recommendations, and

as

considered by the Committee

yesterday. The agreement was - and if that proposal

is

one of the general recommendations goes through any waiver

of an existing regulation

or any amendment of an existing

regulation, that affected

the significant policies of programs

of the Agency, would have to go immediately to NSC and to the

oversight committee so

that

they would know.

So what I

am saying

that if you had a directive and

there was a change in something like this which would be

significant, there would have to be notice to the oversight

committee and to the NSC.!

The Chairman. Can we

have a vote, then, on 47. before

we go down to the Senate to this roll call.

MI. Miller. MI. Mart of Michigan.

Senator Hart of Michigan.

Aye.

Mr.. Miller. Mr. Mondale.

Senator Mondale. Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston.

Senator Huddleston.!

Aye.

Mr. Miller. MI. Morgan.

Senator Morgan. Aye:

Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Colorado.

Senator Hart of Colorado: Aye.

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Mr. Miller. Mr. Baker.

Senator Baker. Aye

• Mr. Miller. Mr. Goldwater.

Senator Tower. No by proxy.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias.

(No response.)

Mr. Miller. Mr. Schweiker.

Senator Schweiker:

Aye.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower.

Senator Tower. No.

' Mr.Miller. Mr. Church.

The Chairman. Aye.

Senator Tower. Mi. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent

that Senator Mathias be allowed to vote.

The Chairman. That'

will be so ordered.

All right, let's take a short recess and come back.

(Whereupon, at 4:05 o'clock p.m. the Committee

recessed to reconvene at

''10:00 o'clock a.m., Friday, March

26, 1976.)

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