DEPOSITION OF RICHARD MC GARRAH HELMS, APRIL 23, 1975, 2 OF 2
Originator: ROCK
Document date: 04/23/1975
Document type: DEPOSITION

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178-10004-10072

2022 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

JFK Assassination System

Date:

8/27/201

Identification Form

Agency Information

AGENCY: WILDEROTTE

RECORD NUMBER :

178-10004-10072

RECORD SERIES :

TESTIMONY SERIES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: TESTIMONY (3)

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE:

ROCK

DEPOSITION OF RICHARD MC GARRAH HELMS, APRIL 23, 1975, 2 OF 2

DATE: 04/23/1975

PAGES:

34

SUBJECTS :

ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS

CIA

CLANDESTINE OPERTIONS

HARVEY, WILLIAM

HELMS, RICHARD

JOHNSON, LYNDON

OPERATION MONGOOSE

ORGANIZED CRIME

ASSASSINATION, DIEM

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

AMLASH

PFIAB

DOCUMENT TYPE: DEPOSITION

CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret

RESTRICTIONS: Consulted

CURRENT STATUS:

Withhold

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

08/05/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS:

Some pages are missing. Not as complete as 1781000210092.

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PRESIDENT'S CONMISSICO

CM CIA ACTTVSTZE3

to ton sia

2 of 2

Deposition Of: RICHARD MCGARRAA HELMS

Wednesday, April 23, 1975

Langley, Virginia

WARD & PAUL

Verka

Spoken

volant-

worde flei

derifia

written

Manent

words endure

WASHINGTON, D.C.

410 First Street. S.E., 20003

Phone

(202) 544-6000

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FAIRFAX, VIRGIN

4055 Chain Bridge Rd., -

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Ambassador Helms, were you ever aware during your work

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with the Agency of the development or discussions of any plans

concerning the possible assassination of Patrice Lumumba?

A. I don't recall anything about any plans to assassinate

Patrice Lumumba. I know

" that Lumumba was a controversial figure

at the tine.. I know whatever year this was — was in the

Eisenhower of the Kennedy era that Lumumba was riding high.

I believe that the

era would have been in the era of

1959, '60. I believe he was

killed in early '61.

A. .... I remember later hearing all kinds of allegations

about. Lunumba and how he had been killed and why he had been

killed. I remember also the fact that the -- it was abundantly

clear that the Agency had had nothing to do with his demise

but whether there was a plot on the Agency at sometime or

another to.try to bring about his demise I was not familiar with

it. I want to say here I will obviously do the very best I

can with ny recollection but when you consider how much has been

in the newspapers about a number of things in the last period of

years it is pretty hard to stick in time when you first heard

about something.

All I am trying to convey here is I was not as far as I

know privy to any ongoing plan to get rid. of Patrice Lumumba

by

assassination.

Now, the dictator of the Dominican Republic, Mr.

Trujillo, was killed on or about May 30,. '51. Prior to that

time were you aware of the fact that there had been a

request

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made of the

Ayency to deliver guns to dissidents in the

Dominican Republic?

A .

I don't believe I was familiar with

it at the time

although I can't say. I certainly heard about the gun business

later because I had occasion to go back when President Johnson

asked me about this episode at one time to look into the records

to find out about Trujillo. I could find no evidence that the

Agency had been responsible for his demise but I did find

evidence at the time that there was an opposition group in the

United States Government was anxious to have the Agency support

and assist and I think I may very well have known about the

opposition group at the time.

I have no recollection any longer that I was privy to the

sending of any guns fo: to the Dominican Republic and if I was,

I don't recall

they were ever identified as being designed to

kill Mr. Trujillo. I know there was a desire on the part of

whatever Administration was in power then, they didn't like Mr.

Trujillo. They like Mr. Duvalier ard certain others but I was

aware of no attempts to bring about his death through Agency

assets.

..-

I think since you have raised this question of an assassi

nation I would like to say something as a generality here.

• Dearly in the game when Colonel Galloway: was my boss in

what was then known as the Office of Special Operations, I don't

even recall any more in what connection this came up but he said

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to me one day that the Agency should certainly have the

capability to get rid of foreigners when required and that this

had to be done secretly and you should never ask your boss for

permission to do these

things, and so forth. I remember at the

time arguing

with him about this and saying that I though that

there was no possibility whatever that the United States Govern

ment could develop a capacity to kill people because you coula

never keep it a secret. Sooner or later, maybe after five year

ten years, Lord knows what, someone would come in or write some

Congressman and say the Agency was responsible for killing so

and so and aside from the morlity of it I felt it was impracti-

cal for the US Government to do something like that at this tim

I felt that way all the time I was Director.

I never: in my lif

towards killing, murder, assassination of anybody öf whom I am

aware, and so I can only tell you that as the years have gone

by, as I say, quite aside from moral asepots of this thing,

the improbabilityo ever being able to do anything like that as

an American Government agency has become less and less viable.

In fact, I have often said to associates that there are

three things that the American people would never stand for.

One is assassination, two is rape, and three is dealing in

drugs. So that I didn't want anybody in the Agency thinking

that any of those things were going to be satisfactory to me.

Mr. Manfredi asked you about some notes in which there

was the mentior of three handwritten names by you. One was

ARCOST

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Castro, one was Trujillo, and do you remember what the third

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was?

A.. Dien.

@.

And I think you have already testified about thrt.

..A.- I just did, because President Johnson had raised these

cases with me and I thought that since he had done it he might

have raised them with-President Nixon and early in his Admini-

stration I wanted to get him sträightened out on this.

_You know,. to this day I am not persuaded that President

Nixon doesn't still believe that the Agency didn't have something

to do with the demise of President Diem of Vietnam and there is

absolutely no evidence of this in the Agency records and the

whole thing has been, I mean, rather - what is the word I want

-- heated by the fact that President Johnson used to go around

saying that the reason President Kennedy was assassinated was

that he had assassinated President Diem and this was just

justice. He certainly used to

say that in the early days of his

Presidency and where he got this idea from I don't know. I

don't know how many of you had the privilege of trying to argue

with Presidents about. things like that but you tend to be a

loser.

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Q

"Do you--

Whose idea was this? Do you have the information?

Well: --

A

I recall somebody discussing with me one day an

even crazier idea which had to do with

some kind of a thing

that might be planted on the beach where Castro walked in the

morning and it would blow up when he put his foot on it, or

something. There were more nutty ideas. It reminded me of

the time of OSS when somebody wanted to get propaganda into

Germany and they discovered there was a herd of cows that

grazed in Germany and were milked in France, so they devised

some suppositories into which there were put a lot of

propaganda leaflets and those were put in the cows on the

theory they were being left on the German side of the border

when the cows were grazing and nobody would be the wiser.

So to say there are. nutty ideas cooked up in organizations

like this is to tell the truth.

Is there any evidence, may I ask, Mr. Belin, is

there any evidence in the record that any Director authorized

what I can only refer to

by the dictionary definition.of

an assassination of a foreign leader?

l. Well, there is evidence in the record, Ambassador

Helms, that there were plans made to try and assassinate

Premier Castro of Cuba, that there were several series of

plans, and that the plans at at least one or two of the

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stages included the delivery of poison pills developed in

the Agency to be placed in food or drink --

They were delivered in Cuba?

-- of Castro, and that the pills were delivered to

ME. Roselli, who in turn delivered them to other people,

and that the pills eventually found their way to Cuba.

How do we know that?

There are Agency reports that they were. We do not

have any first-hand information that they were, but there

are - there are memoranda which indicates that they were

through, among others, disaffected Cubans.

A

Who returned to the United States and testified

to the fact that they had received the pills or something?

Who have not testified to anything.

A

I see.

0...

That is one

Who authorized this particular operation?

This is one of the areas that we are trying to

ascertain and I suppose my first question along this line

was whether or not you had any knowledge of the existence of

such a plan.

Not that I recall.

And you indicate that you never knew of such

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Plan?

I don't recall any plan.

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Do you ever recall after you succeeded Richard Bissel

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that you were approached concerning whether or not you should

advise John McCone of the existence of such plans or

operations?

----

A

Q

was approached to do what?

As to whether or not Mr. McCone should be briefed

about the existence of such a plan or plans?

A

This is after the fact? Or before the fact? Or in

the process?

During the fact.

A

You mean I had replaced Bissell and somebody in the

Agency came to me and said should we tell Mi. McCone about a

previously authorized plan?

Yes.

Do you recall that at all?

A

I don't recall it. I am sorry.

Do you recall ever discussing this with William

Harvey?

A

I don't know. I discussed hundreds of things with

Harvey when he was working on the Cuban problem. I don't

recall this. I recall a great deal to do with Harvey about

Roselli but I don't recall any conversation with Harvey

about talking to MI. McCone about Roselli because Harvey-

when he became in charge of the Cuban business, and so forth,

that whole Cuban operation, picked up various things around

and about and among them was the ongoing contact with Roselli

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And who told you this?

A

I don't recall. It may have been Houston, may have

been. Edwards at the time. I don't remember. But I remember I:

reviewed it when there was a stury in the Chicago -- chr

_of the Chicago newspapers some years ago about this whole

Roselli business, that I asked for the records and looked at

them at that time.

MR. BELIN: I am going to mark an exhibit, if I

can: You can call this, if you would Helms' Exhibit 1.

(The document referred to was marked

for identification, Helms' Exhibit

- No. 1.)

BY MR. BELIN:

I hand you what the reporter has marked Helms No.

1, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a front-page

story from the Chicago Sun Times under date of August 16;

1963, headlines "CIA Sought Giancana Help for Cuba Spying."

I want you to examine this and see if perhaps that is

what you had reference to in reference to the Chicago

stories.

A

It could very easily be. It: looks just like what

I recall came out at the time and I think somehow or other

this name Sandy Smith sticks in my mind as being the writer

of the article in gustion. So I have no reason to doubt. that

this is the article we are talking about.

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' Do you remember Stanley J. Grogan?

A '

Yes..-

..He was one of your assistants?

A

Stanley J. Grogan was in charge of the office here

that dealt with the press. In other words, he was and

Gus Thermers, one of his predecessors. His title was Assistant

to the Director but he simply handled press inquiries.

MR. BELIN: Mark Helms' No. 2.

(The document referred to was marked

for identification, Helms' Exhibit

No. 2.)

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BY MR. BELIN:

O. I hand you what has been marked Helms'. No. 2,

which is a memorandum for the record with a typewritten

signature of Stanley J. Grogan dated August 16, 1963,

referring to a telephone call the previous evening from Sandy

Smith of the Chicago Sun Times and ask if you ever saw that

before?

A.

I don't know. There is no

reason why I shouldn't have

seen it, if it was directed to me.

Is there no

copy around

with my initials on it as having seen it?

l... I have not searched all of the records concerning

that.

Usually I initialei memoranda, or at least the cover

sheets, or something, if they came to me.

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MR. BELI: Mark Numbers 3 and 4.

(The documents referred to were mar!.

for identification, Helns' Exhibit

Nos._ 3 and 4.)

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BY MR. -BELIN:

.=

Handing you what has been marked Helms. Exhibit

No. 3, which is a memorandur which appears to be prepared by

you, also under date of August 16, 1963, I think that night

have your initials on it: And there is a - that is attached

to what is marked as Helms' Exhibit No. 4, which is a memo-

randun for the records dated 14 May 1962, pertaining to Arthuz

James Balletti, et al.

.:A.: All right. I have read these.

Do you have any refreshed recollection as to the

background of those, Ambassador Helms?

A

Well, I don't understand what you mean by a

refreshed recollection. I mean, at the time I was told that

Roselli was trying to get into Cuba. Whether I was told that

this was an assassination plot, for which $150,000 was being

projected, and

so forth, I don't recall any more but I wasn't

involved in the activity at the time and when I had to go

back into the files. to get this thing, you will see there that

I had to call Colonel Edwards to find out if there was any

records of this, and so forth, so it was something in which I

hadn't been involved and I obviously in recent years have

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heard a great deal about the so-called Roselli assassination

but I have never heard anybody come and tell me that anybody

had ever verified that it

was any more than conversation and

I must say to this very day nobody has showed me one scintilla

of evidence that anything ever happened about it except

conversation.

The --

I am not saying it didn't.I am just saying I

have never seen any evidence.

The document Exhibit 4

was a memorandum for the

record which pertained to an oral briefing in which Mr. Houston

and MI. Edwards of the Agency briefed Attorney General Robert

Rennedy.

(Nods in affirmative.)

& Had you ever seen this memorandum for the record

before today?

A

Well, I am relatively certain I must have seen it

the day I sent it to the Director.

Q. Had you seen it before then?

A

. I don't recall.

This memorandun for the record dated 14 May 1962;

refers to a plan which was started in the fall of 1960 and

which continued through April of 1961. Were you ever aware

that subsequent to that time there was a second plan which

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and reported these contacts to the FBI. We just had that

albatross around our necks for a very long time indeed. I

don't know when it finally ended but it seems to me it

was some years.

- Do you remember any discussions with William Harvey

in which one of the things agreed upon was that the DCI,

Mt McCone, would not be briefed about this?

A No; I don't recall any conversations with Harvey

or anybody else that Mr.McCone shouldn't be briefed.. I don't

say they didn't take place. I just don't have any recollection

of it. I can't think today why I would have not wanted him

briefed about something. I mean, after all, one of the bases

on which this Agency has always operated was that the Director

was privy to know anything that went on. That was established

early in the game.

..Q.

Well, the Director -

A .

Is there some evidence that I said no, don't tell

the Director, or he shouldn't be briefed?

well, there has been testimony and there is documen-

tation that it was agreed between you and Mr. Harvey not

to brief the DCI and. I wonder whether or not you have any

recollection, No. 1, of whether or not that discussion was

had and if you do have any such recollection, as to why that

discussion might have been had.

A

No.I don't have any recollection of the discussion.

HO SETTI

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Q

Do you remember any briefing of the DCI at any time

prior to Helms'-Exhibit No. 3, the August 16, 1953?

-.--

.A- bet's see.

Who would have been DCI then? John

McCone?

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-Yes."

A

I don't know. I don't recall any other discussion

with him on this subject.

....Q -And on -

A... I don't say it didn't take place. I just don'e

recall any.

-Q. Now, on August 16, -1963, you delivered this memorandar

Helms' Exhibit No. 3, to Mr. McCone, referring to Sam Giancana

and you said this is an outgrowth of this Chicago Sun-

Times story of also August 16, 1963, Helms' No. 1, is that

correct?

A -- Yes.

Q. Do you remember whether. or ot you briefed him at

that time on the fact that MI. Harvey had taken over the

operation and the operation might have continued beyond the

first stage with MI. Giancana?

A I have

no recollection of this -- I have seen the

memorandun. I have no doubt it is mine. I have no doubt it

went forward. I remember the episode but I don't remember the

conversation with Mr.. McCone at the time if there was ore.

If Mr. Edwards or Mr.. Harvey were to say they had

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discussions with you that I previously questioned you about,

is it your testimony that you have no recollection that would

enable you to confirm it or deny it?

- Yes. I just don't remamber it. I mean, if they were

-to sit here and go back through the conversation, and so

• forth

maybe it would come to mind but I don't recall it now and I

see no point in trying to testify to something that I don't

remember..

Q . Did you have any knowledge of any other plans

• involved in an attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro?

: A.... As I was saying a moment ago, there were various

ideas floated by various people in the Government that it woula

be nice to get ria

of him, and so forth, but I don't recall

any viable plans that were ever brought to light to do this

and most of the .. I say most -- almost the entire energies

of the DDP in thos days were attempting to get these operations

in Miami organized to see if there was some way to undo the

-government of Fidel Castro and it was a

major effort going

on and I am certain that there were discussions of the

possibilities of killing various

people in connection with, you

know, the options that one has to carry through a certain

injuriction that you have been given, but I don't recall any

plans that were approved or that were viable specifically

directed

at eliminating Castro, but that there were conver-

sations about it, I haven't the slightest doubt.

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I Do you know who in the white House would have had

those conversations with his people in the Agency?

-":.

: A--- It seems to me that back in those days there was

something called - there was some committee that sat at the

"White House that had to do with counter-insurgency as I

recall it.

@ Would that be the Special Operations group?

A -I don't know what the name is any more, different

changes, but this group used to meet constantly on the

problems of Cuba and Latin America, and so forth, and

also

problems all around the world - how are we going to organize

ourselves to fight this problem, that problem and the other

problem? I am sure there must be records of this thing. It

used to meet all the time down at the Executive Office

Building. It had met a lot on Asia, as I recall it, and the

problem in Vietnam, and so forth, and I have no doubt there

was some organization that we used to report to regularly about

our progress in the Cuban thing. I forget which committee

it was but certainly, the Attorney General was right there

all the time. Joe Califano was involved from the Army

Department in these matters. I don't know. There were other

people. Ihave forgotten now all the - that is a long time.

ago.'-

A

Yes, sir. Does the name Mongoose ring any bell?

sure.

Mongoose was sort of a general cover rubric

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for the whole effort to unseat the Castro government.

l=-Is this the group that you are referring to?

. _:: A-- No. Mongoose would have been an internal agency

thing, I think. Now, maybe it was known downtown as -- or

"some of these people who were privy to these

things in

other agencies that this was the rubric. I am not sure. It

may well be.

l when they name a special group, Special Group Augmente

or Special Operations Group --

A

That sounds familiar, yes. That sounds familiar.

- I am ashamed that you know more about these things these

days than I do but honesly, I haven't even thought about them

in all these years.

Q: Sir, do you have any recollection as to who might

have been the driving forces from the White House in efforts

to do something about Castro?

----A:

Well, the principal driving force was the Attorney

General, Robert Kennedy. There isn't any question about this.

Involved in this was. a group of individuals who were sort of

hired and pulled together by Kennedy and Rusk and McNamara

and McGeorge Bundy and all those people to get on with this

job and as I sit here and start to think about this,

Califano was one of them. It seems to me Lansdale, who had

been successful in this kind of operation out in the Far

East was brought in for a while. There was a small office

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over in the Pentagon where people - as a matter of fact, now

that I think about it, that Mongoose thing, wasn't that a

Lansdale invention that was

produced in the Pentagon and that

speciai operations, Gene Erskine headed -- isn't that -.. some

of this is coming back to me

now.

- Q. -Well, as -it comes back to you, do you remember any

discussions involved connected or indirectly connected or any

way connected with that operation involving any attempts to

assassinate Fidel Castro?

• A .. I don't recall specifically. I would be surprised

that it wasn't discussed at times but I don't recall any

of these discussions particularly.

Q:" Do you remember any discussions with Mr.Harvey

concerning the furnishing of either arms or poison pills

to Cuban exiles to have them try and cariy out any assassina-

tion plan?

_--A...I don't have any question that we tried to land

them in Cuba, to bring down this government of to kill

anybody that they could lay their hands on. This was a --

the instructions and all this were pretty rough and

pretty fulsome but when you come down to this question of a

specific project was approved which was designed for a man

to go to Point B and actually shoot or poison or do something

to Castro, I don't recall anything of that kind and I to

this very day would like to see some evidence that this

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actually was ever carried out. I think that there was a lot

of lying on the part of those Cubans and a lot of backing and

forthing-with allegations of things that happened that never

did happen and as I look back on the whole period, with

all the effort that was made in money and manpower, and

so forth, devoted to try and unseat the Castro government,

when one looks back at it it was a pretty pitiful effort

and I think a great deal of it was just, what shall I say,

talking a good game. .

Now, do you have any recollection of any briefing

of McCone about any Agency plans in which Harvey or Roselli

or Sheffield Edwards may have been involved other than

Exhibit 4? -

A. I don't have any recollection of that, Mr. Belin.

I want to tell you that all I recall

was that McCone was

constantly asking about how we were getting along with the

Cuban operations and McCone was constantly being briefed about

what we were trying to do about these operations but what

was

in all those briefings I have no recollection any more

at all and no matter how I would work on this I would never

be able to sort it all out. It was - a lot of effort was

being made, all kinds of things to get boats and to train

Cubans to man those boats and land on secret shores and all

kinds of things..

If --

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.. A -May I ask a question at this juncure? Since CastIo

alive and well in Cuba, what is the problem about these

-- trying to verify all this business about whether these

attempts were made or not made? I mean, does it make azy

difference any more?

l..-Well, there are two major areas of concern apart

from whether or not assassination should play any part in

American policy. One area concerns how the plans were

authorized, whether they were directed externally or whether

they grewup internally.

- - - The second area concerns what I would call internal moni-

toring and control. If Mr.McCone: didn't know about it, other

than that briefing, that-poses a problem so far as an Agency

operating under control. If you did not know about it until

the spring of 1962, and the information that I have gathered

indicates that you were not privy to any information about

this until the spring of 1962, you were in a fairly important

position in the Agency and yet were not aware of what could

have been a potentially disastrous-operation, certainly. an

operation that had all kinds of ramifications for this

country when one considers the trigger of world War I involved

an assassination

attempt.

And so, therefore, the scope of my inquiry is not

necessarily to say it is this person's responsibility but in

large part it is to determine how these plans got organized

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and how they were kept under control, and I should tell

you

that it is my information that, although you did not have any

information about this prior to the spring of 1962, that

in the spring of 1962 you were made privy to what I am joing to

call Phase I which was the Giancana phase and also

what I am

going to. call Phase II when William Harvey took over the

operation, and that MI. McCone, according to the records that

I have seen, was not briefed until the August 16, 1963

memorandum, in part because of the fact Mr.McCone had not

been DCI. at the time the plans were undertaken, so the

documents say that I have seen, and that at the time of his

briefing in August of 1963, it was not an oral briefing but

rather limited to a discussion of the Giancana matter in

the memorandum for the record addressed to Senator Kennedy,

Exhibit 4.

Now, is there anything that. I have said which disagrees

with anything that is to the best of your recollection?

.A. 'I have no reason to cavil with what you say. I

don't have any contrary recollections but I don't remember a

lot of this either. So -

: Q: Now, do you remember Senator Kennedy coming over

to the Agency on of about March 8, 1967, to review this

memorandum for the records that was Helms' Exhibit 4 that

pertained to his 1962 briefing?

A

Senator Kennedy visited the Agency to do that?

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Ham be

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Yes. He either visited the Agency of was hand-

delivered a copy of that. Does

that ring a bell with you

at all?

No, it doesn't, but I don't

say it didn't happen.

--;

I don't --

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You don't remember any conversations with Senator

Kennedy about this?

A

No, I don't.

---==

Q. Do you remember any conversations with Lawrence..

Houston about --

A

Oh, yes, it was Houston who told me about the

- -*

briefing in the first place.

That is right, and when Houston told you about the

briefing and Houston was present at the briefing, do you.

remember what he said and what you said at all or don't you?

A

NO.

--

Do you remember having any conversations with either

Houston about Robert Kennedy wanting to see the memorandum

again on - sometime in 1967?

A I don't remember the thing at all but, you

know,

if it - if the record says that this happened I have no

reason to argue with it. It would not have loomed. large in

my life at that late date and if he wanted to look at it

I wouldn't have the slightest doubt I authorized somebody

to show it to him. I don't recall his coming out here to

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look at it. In other words, I don't recall him ever being

in my office here.

Do you have any recollection of a project known

as Project Amlash?

Amlash?

By that name, not any more.

e Did you ever?

A.. Don't forget, Mr. Belin, that there were hundreds

of these things.

@ Do you have any recollection of any man by the

name of Rolando Cubela who was a Cuban who at one time had

been associated with Castro and then became disaffected

with him?

A

Let's see. Was he the fellow who eventually ended

up in Paris or Madrid or something of this kind?

Yes. At one time he did and then eventually

he ended up in Cuba but he was met by Agency people in Paris.

A

What was his particular cryptonym?

Q

Well, among other things; some Black Leaf 40 had

been developed to be delivered to him in a pen which had been

constructed to have a hypodermic needle with the object to

inject the Black Leaf 40. into Castro. And that was delivered

to him.in Paris on November 22, 1963. Do you remember?

A : I certainly remember Cubela.. I certainly remember

the fact that he was, I think . was he a defector from the

Cuban regime.

TOD

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Yes.

A Of was he an agent whom we recruited who had not

yet defected of what? I certainly remember his name and I

certairly remember the use that was made of

a fellow rared

Cubela but I don't recall exactly for what.

There was an effort to recruit him in place.

There were eventually some weapons delivered to him.

A

Were there? I don't have any reason to doubt it.

The Black Leaf 40 and the hypodermic pen, and so forth, I

don't recall.

Do you recall any Agency scheme which involved trying

to put a spectacular seashell in an area --

A

That

is what I was talking about earlier. womebody

was talking once about trying to put

a bomb on his beach

where he walked, or something.

Or where he skin-dived.

A

Yes, that is the idea. I do remember somebody

discussing whether that would be aviable operation or not.

Do you ever remember anyone discussing giving

castro a skin-diving suit which would include some tuberculosis

bacteria in the breathing apparatus and also possibly some

fungus which would produce madura foot?

Madura foot? I remember, it seems to me, Fitzgerald

had a bright idea about the skin-diving suit. I don't

renember his -- I don't think I recall at all that there

was

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any plan to put anything in it. I have even forgotten what

the skin-diving suit was but I want to tell you these came

up every day,

some hairbrained idea like this to do some-

thing about Cuba, but that these actually were carriei out,

I don't recall any instances of it. I don't recall any approv:

given to actually set the seashell down or to send the thing

or that any assets were developed to do these things. These

were a lot of things: that were discussed and I am sure they

got down on paper since you have them but I don't recall they

were

ever approved or ever carried out or any attempt to

carry them out.

- ..-...

Do you remember that eventually arms were delivered

to ME Cubela in Cuba?

A

I don't have any doubt about it. I think we

delivered arms all over the place in connection with Cuba.

I mean, let us not for a moment think that the Kennedy

Administration wasn't dead serious about getting rid of the

Castro government.

I mean, let's not - this was a

Government operation and if Dean Rusk. or anybody, McGeorge

Bundy of anybody else is sitting around, no, no, no, we

didn't have this in mind at all; let's get. that all straighte

out. They wanted to get rid of Castro. Well, let me say

that I don't know that Dean Rusk wanted to get rid of him

but certainly President Kennedy wanted to get rid of him.

What do you mean by getting rid of him?

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They wanted to unseat his government. They wanted to

bring his government down by whatever device could be found.

-

Which could include assassination?

A

I don't know that the word assassination was ever

used but certainly if you land armed men on a beach and the

effort is to recruit other armed men and to try

to start a

whole arrangement whereby you, you know, you bring down a

government, sombeody is bound to get shot. But the thing

that I am doing my level best with you about and which even

as I sit here thinking about it, is the focus on this

assassination business.as though this was a, you know, some-

thing that was totally part and parcel of killing or invasions

or anything of that kind. Put in that context, I just don't

remember that any of these operations were ever mounted

let alone had any prospects. of success. That a lot of them were

discussed, I haven't the slightest doubt. and I don't know

what other people in the Government have testified to but

even that must have come up at various meetings as to whether

this was a viable way to get rid of the man.

There is a very great difference, it seems to me,

when you actually approved it, were prepared to take the

responsibility.

•I For the record, there appear to have been no plans

undertaken to carry out either the seashell or the skin-diving

suit but there do appear to be plans to deliver the poison

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pills and plans to deliver weapons.

A

All right.

"You don't have any recollection to the contrary,

do you?

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BY MR. BELIN:

The last item I want to talk to you about at this

time goes back to 1962.

sost the pisto

I am sorry to skip back and forth.

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A

All right.

You mentioned that the Attorney General, Robert

Kennedy, was intimately involved with Operation Mongoose.

And

there appears to be a corroborating memorandum prepared by

you dated October 16, 1962, pertaining to this, and I wonder

if you would read this memorandum and see if it refreshes

your recollection.

A

6 October 1962. When was the Cuban missile crisis?

The Cuban missile crisis,.. I believe, was in October

of 1962.

A

Colonel Patchell. I had forgotten all about

him.

This letterhas been marked Helms' Exhibit 5.

That sort of lays it out, doesn't it?

Ambassador Helms, having read the Heims' Exhibit

No. 5, this is a memorandum which you prepared which appears

to have been prepared on October 16, 1962, the date that you

met with the Attorney General, is that correct?

A

• Yes.

O And to the best of your recollection, did the

Attorney General express the general dissatisfaction of the

President with the Operation Mongoose?

A

I have every. reason to believe that what I wrote

• in that memorandum was

the best of my recollection of what

was said and what went on in the meeting described..

Would it be fair to say that the Attorney General

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was personally involved and continued to become more personally

involved with the overall Mongoose Operation?

A .

Yes.

Do you know whether of not at any time the Attorney

General was ever advised of the fact that William Harvey

had overtaken or had taken over a certain portion of the

Roselli operation?

A - I don't have any recollection of that.

Have

you ever talked to Harvey, incidentally?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. What did he have to say on the subject?

Q.. -Well, Mi. Harvey never met with the Attorney General

but Mr. Harvey did say that he --

A He never saw the Attorney General?

O- He never discussed -- no, he didn't say that.

A.

Oh.

Q He never discussed the particular plans in which he

was

personally involved with the Attorney General.

I see. I see.

He did say that sometime in the spring of 1962

you became aware of those plans and that would be corroborated

by other documentation that I have seen, and that he also

said that you and he determined not to briei the DCI on it

at the time and that is also corroborated by other documenta-

tion that I have seen.

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What sort of documentation?

Memorandum.

A

Memorandum for the record?

Well, memorandum involving

among other things,

review of the entire area of this. I have notes on it. I

don't have the memorandum here at this time.

I-don't know if I

would call it a memorandum for

the record but at least there is some written documentation,

but I don't know whether made contemporaneously, that there

was a decision not to brief DCI, McCone, the memorandum

having been talked about earlier.

Let me ask a very important question here at this

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point.

Surely.

A " This plan that Harvey was alleged to have, how

far did it ever get? I mean, what I am trying to get at

here. is that we are dealing with a lot of conjecture, a lot

of thoughts, a lot of ideas. Now, did any plan get down to the

point where somebody was about to get in a boat or airplane

and go to Cuba and do X or Y and it shows I approved this

happening or was this something he was going to try to develop

and see if it could fly and if there was any possibility

that it might work, and so forth?

There are reports that the people with whom there.

was contact did get to Cuba with pills' and with --

73 2000 1974, 1999 ME SO I (3111 B50p

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A

This was

the first --

- other occasions.

A

First phase?

And also the second phase and in addition, there

were subseguent reports that there were arms provided

also and what you are saying is if this plan continued over

a period of several years it continued without your express

overview,as I understand your testimony, is that correct?

A Yes. My recollection of Harvey's dealings with

Roselli or during most of the period that was that nothing

ever happened about anything.

-Q... Well, certainly Mr. Castro is still living.

A Yes, but I mean, I think this -- I don't know whose

word to trust in this but I think that, you know, this is a

pretty thin reed, this Roselli business.. He was a pain in

the neck and an awful albatross but I think we got zero

use out of him.

MR. MANFREDI:

Mr.Helms, this is Harold Baker,

another member of the staff.

THE WITNESS: How do you do?

MR. BELIN:..Mr. Baker is going to be here tomorrow.

I think at this time we will let you take a breather and

at least adjourn the deposition to resume tomorrow morning.

THE WITNESS: What time would you like me here.

Mr. Baker?

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MR. BAKER: Mr. Gray was going to start first.

MR. BELIN: Mr. Gray is not - well, I have asked

the questions that Mr.Gray wanted to ask.

MR. BAKER: I see. What would be convenient for

you?

--.-

THE WITNESS: I want to meet your convenience.

I mean my desire is to be as available and get everything

done that we can so I can get back to my job.

- - :

MR. BAKER: Half past nine?

- THE WITNESS: Fine.

MR. BELIN: All right. Well, thank you, sir, for

your cooperation.

.. THE WITNESS:

Thank you. Iwant to cooperate. I

want to help. I will try and be a little bit, lot more alert

tomorIoW.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the taking of the

deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Thursday,

April 24, 1975.)

.. -

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