NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPT, REEL # 5.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/29/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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MATERIAL REVIEWED AT CIA HEADQUARTERS BY

MOUSE SELECT CO:MITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS STAFF ME:BERS

p. 76

Released under the John F. Kennedy A

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NW 532166/17/17

FILE TITLE/NUMBER/VOLUNE:

TRANSCRIIT

KEELET

INCLUSIVE DATES: -

29 MiY 191.5 - 31 TY 1965

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21'A/28

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nati

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,, 1

Reel #5

29 July 1965

TRANSLATIO!

A.

... ((If)) you had it.

And ven me come to your education

Tie

will add it to what I have said

((about parents, bachground, etc.)) -- your education in high school,

the Navy school, and the Institute of International Relations.

B. I do not know that you vant to say.

A. I want to say that ((since)) you have found the ((in Inglish)) excuse

of "taking into account oy higher caucation," we will return to this

question; I just want to renind you so that you will not forget.

I will put this all together....

B. (. Please: or : too bad. >

A. ...In time....

B. Of course, of course.

A. I would like you to find something better....

B. I cannot find anything better, because I did not decide the question

about myself; I do not know how the question was decided..

A. I am asking you, from the point of view or a counterintelligence

officer, hou do you (evaluate:) ((this)).

B. And I do not intend to resolve the question of my life on ((to confor»

with)) one date.

APPROVED FOR RELEASE 1994

CIA HISTORICAL REVIEW PROGRAN

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Place yoursel in the place of cluniOr or ElOis!, iaving in mind

the position of ((sone)) TiANCY as lf it more yours i that would be

your decision.

£.

I do not inor; 11 I-nore in his place, then it vould be another thing

(XG) •

Because you told us at onc tine that you vere a forthy counter-

intolligence officer.

But now jo: modestly saj that you were such a simple, little....

В. In 1953, in 1951....

1. ...A little case oificer.

B. How, thy are you turning this around

That is not richt.

In 1953, 1931, 1935 and 1956, I really vas nothing; I vas only a case

officer.

If you are talking about 1954, you arc right.

A. Yes.

B. Right; what do you want me to tell you - that in 1954 they valued me

and liked me and respected me.

A. Oh, do you renember, in the boginning, in the beginning, when you

had just established contact with us, how ((you said)) you had worled

against the journalists, against nilitary attaches, and that you had

recrulted dozens of Americans, and so forth.

B. Not at all, not at all; you do not have to... you do not have to paint

things that vay....

((XG; A and R speak at the same tine))

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ya. I can sinply ronind you of that maich you said carlier: nothing nore.

I. You do not have to paint things that way.

A. Anyway let us think about were the bones lie hidden.

B. ((Long pause)) I do not inos,

I do not know.

That kind of boncs:

Where

I do not !:now.

((Long pause)) I do not inow.

What lud of bones.

I do rut tow anything.

never

said that I ras an ideal and outstanding forker.

I worked as I could and as I had to.

I never said that I had recruited dozens.

If I participated, I participated.

I have told how they treated ne.

A. As if you more the best nan, they sent you to Geneva... as the best

counterintelligence

offiCer.

B. How "as the best":

In 1902, it vas necessary for then to send not a senior case officer,

nor a case officer, but soneone higher.

A. Well, that you were bigger does not fit -- I do not see it.

You understand - if you sonewhere sonewhat....

B. ((Interrupts)) You know, this will not kill me, because I already have

heard this 482 ((times)) - I have heard that I tas not a good employee

that I am nothing.

I have heard this more than once; please continue in the same spirit.

A. I do not think that anyone told you that you are nothing.

i sw

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ine-

D, Well, they did not sa; "nothing" - that is richt; it would be rude....

It Is right that I have exasucied: absolutely right.

How many tines has it been said, "iell, what kind of a worker tere you.

that kind."

...

A. lic still do not have the KGB here - la have not cone to that yet.

B. Right, right; yes - you have not cone to that but... soncshat...

southing I did not expect iron incrican intelligence or counterintelli

sence.

1, What, for crample?

B. Let us not tall about it - this is a stage that already has been

-

passed; it is bchind.

A. Well, I ay interested in knowing.

B. You know everything very weil.

You know every letter, every stage; you know everything

A. If I knew everything, then ve would not nave to be talking..

B. No, I say, that ras, was; you kaow.

A. I do not know what you have in mind; I do not think that me did

anything unusual; I do not think there was anything out of the

ordinary; it was just everyday life.

B.

That is not life; it was a sad existence.

A. Well, let us see, let us talk about it - whose fault is 1t.

B. Hell, how is it my fault.

Tell me why it is ny fault; tell ue shy I ar doing time, tell me why

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• I as doing tine.

You tell ic, "ic do not belleye you" ((Sut)) this 1s not a reason fox

a man to do tlic.

d. Do not 100: for the entire farlt in yourself; I an

not bianin: only you..

B. 10, I understand -- that orer there ((the :Gn))....

1. Yes, "over thore"....

B. ...icuse me, they are crappine on uc....

1. ...Yes, "over there", "over there".

B. I understand that, over there, they....

A. What - "over there",

B. Nell... that they - throut the agent network: and through trusted

persons, etc. - they are "giving it to"no.

I know how it is done, now a man can be turned into nothing, into

nothing!

I know this.

Whether you rant it or not, there is soicthlug coming fron over there;

I know about this very well.

A. We will tali: about vaat is coning ((fron over there)) and what is not

coming.

Of course, you are interested in knowing what is coming; but I rould

like to know what you think is going on there.

B. What do I think:

That do I thiris:

I thinis, I loon, that, of course, a decision already has been made

about me, and they have sentenced ne to death; and sone kind of case

has been opened against me, just as a case was opened against GOLITSYN,

6L5..

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-

as I heart.

Measures are tion and tir rclatives are but under control.

2. Dut my control taon.

B. Tell, perhaps a letter wight 5o

throus;h.

1. liell, anymy (ist is said that)) the

"Ge has changed; they are so rood

and lileable....

E. Tho told you that.

A. That is what they mite.

B. "Tucy trito"....

A. They simply are so kind thnt ticy are "issing the Soviet people's asses.

B. Ois, yes.

1. Well, is they are not so good, in your opinion, then....

((XG; A and E speai. at the same tine))

...What is holding you back from opening your heart and forgetting your

past:

They ((the KGB)) are entirely to blane, etc.; Way do you not make up

your mind to say, "Screw then", and begin from the very beginning and

tell the truth.

......

t...........

B. I am telling you only the truth; li there were sone small

((IG; A and & speak at the sane tine))

д.

Well, I have been talking with you for 3 days, and I do not see any

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conitration of mat you call the truth.

D. I da tellin: you

on15

the truth, absolutely.

((*G;

dand t spear at

the sane tire))

hell, you are forgettin: that ve have just finisied tal. iny for the

last four about tho anota, and you could not answer the simplost things.

B. I aa tellin: you vant I remember.

A. One cannot believe that you torked there; I to not now what keeps you

iron talking sense, as thoy say.

D. l'ell, why do you say that

1. ((Pause)) Hell, one more question - what do you know ahout the

Personnel record sheet (lichnyy listo: po ucictu ladrov).

B. What Personnel record sheet?

A. That is the Personnel record sheet:

That kind of document is it'

B. I do not know;

I do not know the Personnel record sheet, I do not know.

A. Tell, on every Party menber and every Konsonol menber vorking in the

organs of the iVD or in government fork, or even i non-Party neuber

having sone higher education or qualifications and on whom there is a

personnel file in the KGB or the Council of Ministers or the CC CPSU

and so forth... the CPSU Central Cormittee Issues this Personnel record

sheet; 1t is sone sort of anketa.

B.

I do not know it.

A. It is completed by everyone.

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}

I never cosploted it; I do not know mat it 1s; I do not isor.

A. It is not vory important to the IVD, but - in accordance with a CC CPSU

decision - very employce illls it out.

B. I do not inor, I do not know

A. It represents a true picture of the cducated emplorees.

B. that roes into it:

A. Tucre is the usunl incornation in it, but I do not rant to explain

that there is.

B. I do not inow, I do not know.

A. It begins vitis the questions - surnane, iirst nose, patronynic; date

and place of birth; social background; curation of Party acabership;

party Identification card number.

This shoet is, as tacy say, a Party-ionsonol record; It is completed

by each caployce; it is included in the Personal file before the

antieta.

B. I absolutely do not renenber tais sheet or its conpletion, absolutely.

A. This, again, is one of the proofs that forces the conclusion that....

B. Honest, I absolutely do not renember this sheet or its completion t the

Personal files into which I looked.

I looked into Personnel files.

•... +.

Because in 1962, 1963, ve hired for the Third Section, restaurants and

hotels, a large number of forner KGB enployees as non-staffers; only

former enployees.

And I do not remember this ((sbeet)).

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A. You probably say their fersonnel files, borause a von a aen is

released - his file is sent to the irchives, tion anyone con tale the

file if no vants to maic use of this enployee.

(0%o; ¿ and 3 speals at the save ¿lac))

B. I absolutely do not renaber this sheet.

A. Hon do you caplain that you do not ronenber your Party card number.

B.. I do not reneuber it, I do not reseabor.

((NG; i and B speal: at the sane tine))

Loo': - near ne out, please; you asied he may I do not remeaber it --

I will tell you: you pay your dues; you go to a neeting and you inow

you have to show your card, so you take it with you; I did not have to

give the number; I take It along: you keep it in the saic....

A. I an not astlug because anyone rants to inow this number; but there

is a procedure in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union -- every

nember of tho party is obliged to inow the nunber of his Party card.

((NG; d and B speak at the same tine))

it is not written ((in the Regulations)), but there is a procedure and

the Party Secretary always asts.

A. I do not want to exaggerate, but I simply want to say that the

Secratary always asks when a nan pays kis dues - particularly new

nenbers, if they renember the number of their party card.

rome-tricon or Peter th

romana o

B. Fell, they could asks; absolutely right.

((XG; A and B speak at the sane tine))

A.

It is, as they say, in the blood stream of every Party member -

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except, of course, some stupid person who does not have any nemory at

all; he does not renember - iut all the rest renember.

misin liste

B. ((In English)) Thank you very nuch.

i. liell, I did not have ((jou)) in nird....

B. No, nơ, no, I understand, I understand.

A. But it is logical to remenber.

I was a me ber of the Party but li. noo.

B. And do you remember the number

4...

A. I remember the number quite well; it has stayed in my nemory, and I

still renenber it.

I do nos recall my Komsonol card number.

I do not know whether I inew it vell; probably I did.

But I remember my Party card number -- and that was nore than 20 years

ago.

B. Loo's - just a minute; there is another number - every employee has

a serial number (lichnyy nomer); it is a metal plate.

You keep it in the safe.

This nunber is indicated in the identification card which you carry

with you every day, day and night.

I do not remember it, but I know it had four digits: "Ye00, and then

the number.

A. Of course, no one ever asked you to remember the number of your

identification card.

B. No, this is not the identification card number; this

is a serial nunber.

A. That kind of a serial number?

For what purpose is It.

FARTE

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B.

It is for use in cuse of tar, if you should die.

1. Then did they introduce this serial nuaber.

E. I do not romember; I do not rezember.

A. liell, you sce, you contradict jourself - on oue hand, you tay to

prove that you tere there, that you worked, but you canaut ansser the.

simplest question about the number, and you do not linor

it.

"ell, very well; let us take this line -- how tany Party cards have you

had altogether.

B. A candidate nembership card in 1036; when I was accepted in 1957, a

cembership card; that is all.

A. Then was the Party card exchange.

B. Toat was before I was accepted, in 1955 or 1954.

A, At that time, did you receive a new Party card

B. Hell, this was before my time.

In 1956, I received a candidate nemiership card and in 1957, a member-

ship card; it vas before my acceptance into the Party, in 195g or 1331.

A. Here there any other circumstances under which you exchanged....:

B. The card.

No.

Where did you leave your card when you left.

B. In the safe... no, no; I lied - I left it with the Secretary of the

Party organization.

A. That - does every one have to turn them in when going abroad:

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Bo lot only men cotr abroad.

You see, I sent abroad on Tol; I Ence that 1 could be cone a senti or

tro; the rule ins to give it to the Secretary, and I loit it with the

Secretary.

I intrust ts recoipt of pay for february and larch to an enployec -

SIlGiPil - to take out the dues, and pay the loan castler; the rest

of it -- to ay wife.

And the Party card goes to the Scerotary.

If you to on a trip, and you know that you will be gone lot 13 days and

you will be paid in the meantino, you leare the money and also the

Party card mit the Secretary.

...

Well, alrijat (4G).

We will stop for today; ve will continue our tal!: another tine.

I rant to say ouce nore - thin!: about what we have been discussing.

B. (XG)

Ind of 29, July 1905 Session.

- GENET

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30 July 193; Iossion

A. Well, what is now today

P. The old day ins passed; a new day - the t33rd - has begun.

й. 133г€.

D. 403гd.

May I have a cicarette.

A. You stfil have not iorgotten how to count the days.

B. I count on my fingers; hesides that, I take threads from my blanket and

nake numbers.

For instance, the first of July; the next day Is the secoad of July.

From the preceding number, I naic a new number every day; that is how

I count.

1. That other reans of counting do you have

You can lose yourself that way.

B. No; there is a whole number of ways.

I save every day, every munth.

The guard detail changes every Friday - that is exactly a reek; new

guards come.

I am telling you -- I do not count:

one, two, etc.

Fen I get to 365, it makes a year, and I begin again.

When I get to 400 = it was on the 3th

of

May. - and I began agaln,

because on the 8th of May it was exactly 400 days..

And, besides that, there are these numbers that I make from the threads.

A. But do you not make any other marks.

B. No; well, I did one time - I put scratches on the door: the ist of

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uccember, atc....

1/65 equals 272 days; and then, there ins arocher date: a!!'es

-- 1t

equals 65 days.

That is how.

A. well, perhaps ve should return to our discussion about the consonol.

I do not thin's that we have covered crorything; we did not agrec with

each other cverywhere.

Do you still insist that you more Sceretary of the ko:sorol organization

of the Second Chief Division

Tell ue, as a friend to frirnd, mere jou were.

B. What would I get out of it ((to tell lies))

Neither a minus, nor a plus.

A. I would not get anything out of it.

B. No, ne, not you - I am talking about myself, about my biography, my

activities; this would rive no neither a plus, nor a minus.

A. You know, we have sposen about the ronsonol - we have spoisen about

this matter twice; and I want to talk about this subject for the last

time.

The konsonol does not operate the way you described it.

If a person were Secretary of a konsonol organization, he rould know

more than the rani-and-file Konsonol member; ((but)) I an not asking

to answer as a Secretary of a ((Konsonol)) Committee.

B. I do not rerember the nane of the Connittee Secretary.

A. Hell, let us say, the Secretary of a Konsonol organization in the most

important directorate in the IVD - in counterintelligence, or the

Second Directorate, as you want to call it - if he were the Secretary,

as you say, for approximately a year, he would have had sone kind of

contact with the Secretary of the ((junsonol)) Committee of the VD,

simply because of his Konsonol work.

-SEOTET

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Б.

I tell jou contact is maintained with sis Second Directorate by kOzI'

and S0:0L0Y - those two men.

A. During the tine you vere Secretary of the consool organivation, how

many Konsonol conferences vere held in the ID

There protably were at least one durin; the year.

B. There was, there ras, there mas... because I....

1. You probably selected delegates fron your konsonol organization, and

you yourself as Secretary should have attended it.

B. Of course, of course.

A. Hell, tell me about tis conference; you probably saw the Secretary and

gave hin documents on those mion you had sclected to be celegates to

this conference, and so forth; a great deal of preparatory work had to

be carried out.

B. I do not rouember; I do not even remenber what tas discussed at tie

conferences; of course, there vere conferences or neetings of the altiv,

souething....

A. l'ell, I an not asking what ms discussed; I am just asiing about the

procedure.

You say you do not remember the nane of the secretary of the lVD

Konsomol Conmittee; in my opinion, you should know; if you were the

Secretary of the Konsonol organization of the Sccond Chief Directorate

you had to know.

B.

I do not know; why do not I know.

Because, after

all, he was not a star in the sky.

I siuply fulfilled social obligation; I just had to....

1. No one said that he was a star in the siy, but you were the Secretary,

and you had to know him.

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"Do i do not seena lis anas: I so not remarrer.

A. For this ronson

alone, it is dificuli lor se to holieve that you vore

= Socrotary.

Very well, I will help you; se will begin mith this - that important

crent -- thich you coulú in no my forget or overloo: - toos place iu

the consonl in 1953-1931 at the tine you vere Secretary

B. I co not rescuber.

1. I as you again; if jou sere the Secretary, you must reneaker this

great event.

B. I do not remember it.

A. Nell, I will remind you shout this great event - it vas just at the

tise men you were Secretary, and it was quite important -- it was the

Moscow City Konsonol Conference in February 1951, vich delegates vere

clected fros all konsorol organizations, including the lVD or the kGs,

whatever you mut to call it; and you, of course, as a Secretary had

to take an active part in it - to he it the aitiv mootins of the e

Kossoaol, to select candidates, and perhaps even to malic a speech.

Even if you did not deliver a speech at least you had to be there and

to vote, etc.

B. I do not remember.

A. This was your last konsomol position while you were working, in the

"VD or anymere else, and I think you should remember it.

Well, as you told me last tine, a konsonol member can be any person of

that age.

B. I will tell you right now - fron the age of l4 they can be taken into

the Komsonol.

A. And to the age of:

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3. To the age of 27.

1. Are you sure of this.

B. Ycs.

A. Well, you can laagine that a Scerotary must know.

B. Until the age of 27.

A. 27:

for 1949.

((Pause)) I will read you a paragraph from the Konsomol Reculations

B. Thy 1949.

This was in 1953-1954.... 1949.

A.

Just before this, I asked you wart important event took place in

March 1954.

B. I do not remesber this.

A. There was a Konsonol Congress....

B. There were such... it was not the only one.

A. ...At which new reguiations were adopted.

It was not the only one, but it was the next one after 1949, the next

one.

From. 1949 until this Congress, they lived according to these regulations,

but from 1954 they began to live differently.

Hone of the regulations before 1949, after 1949, or after 1954 said

anything about "up to 27 years of age".

From Komsomol'skaya Pravda, 7 April 1949: "Anyone from the age of 11

to 26 can be a member of the VLxsa...."

Anotner Congress took place, 30 March 1954:

"Anyone fron the

age of 14

SECRE

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to 26 can be a nether of the VLKS'l...." -- this mas in 1059.

Further, zere are other Reculations, published in lioscon in 1333:

"Anyone fron the age of li to 25 can be a nember nf tan VLis:...." --

this was men they changed the Regulations.

rever in the history of the lonsool, besinning in 1919, have the

regulations anywere said anything shout "up to 27 years of age"; it

alway's was "up to 26" and toon they chanted it to "up to 29".

15. (2G) I lot for roason of ago in 10so. (34?)

A. I do not want to argue.

You could have leit for reason of age when you vore 27 years old; I

do not at all deny this - I only an reminding you that jesterday you

insisted that the Rogulations say "up to 27, and that is all"

I did not argue with you then; I sinply told you that it never was "up

to 27"; it vas "up to 26".

And now... I do not know whai reason you had, etc.; I have only one

question - did they malie sone sort of exception for you.

B. They did not naie any kind of exception for me.

A. Then what is the natter.

A secretary has to brow' -- right

What do you thin's -- the Secretary of the lonsumol Organization of. the

Second Chief Directorate; all of Soviet counterintelligence was working

taere, and he does not know that, at the time wen he was Sacretary,

a Komsomol Congress took place, and new Regulations vere adopted.

B. I do not remember.

A. It was a big event; a Congress does not take place every year.

"By the way, how often are homsonol Congresses held

B. I do not renember.

.::

A. Well, just between us, do you thin' there is basis for me to believe

SECRET

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that you were a Secretary.

B. I cannot tell you anything nore about this; I sisaly do rot renember.

A. "I do not rouenver" a this is not the anster of a counterintelli.ence

officor; use can answer "I do not remember" to all questions.

B. A counterintelligence officer is not God.

He is just like any other man -- IVaiCY, PITROY, SIDOROV -- vorking in a

shop or sosochore cise; the only difference is tat he is vorking in

counterin: llicence, and the other, ir a shop.

A. You know, if jc, vere a Secretary of tae konsonol organization of a

crutch factory, I would not as! you such quastions, because the

Secretary of the Konsonol organization of a crutca factory could jorget •

but an coplojec of counterintelligence, of the Second Chief Directorate,

could not jorget this, not hecausc ze was Secretary or a komsomol

neaber, but hecause this is the daily vor:: of a countcrintelligence

officer: to now all of the legulatiors, because he is working with

peoplo; he recruits, he devolors, de arrests, etc.; he has business witi

the consonol and with the Party every day.

B. Right.

A. Tiell, ho comes in contact with the Regulations and with other docusents

and instructions -- this is my I told you, "This is not the answer

of a counterintelligence officer"; he should knor nore than a siaple

kolkhor worser or a member of a

feather shop.

B. Ab, ab..

i. The same thing goes for the natter of embership dues..

On that basis did you say, "Two percent, and that is all":

B. Just as I resember it.

I am telling you and answering you just as I renember.

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1. Let"s tall as sriend to friend; today you are sayin?, "Just as I

ronomber it"; yesterday you did

not say, "Just as I renember it";

yestorday you said, "I know ((it ras)) two percent chactly".

3. I said, "To percent for the hichest paid"; there is no one to paid

20 kopocks.

h. This is not true;

there never was

a single scale.

Cho konsonol ((senher)) almays pays the saue as the Party, with the

exception that in the latest new Koisonol regulations, a new scale is

provided.

I will road it to jou now.

I. This, again, is since 1953.

In 1233, I sas not in the lons0n0l; I vas nowiere.

A. Beforc this, the scale ins not written up in the coaso.ol regulations;

they paid the same may they paid in the Party -- the same percentage,

regardless of how nuch ((pay)) thej rcecived, the sane percentage, but

they did not "out thoir anim vith the sale comb" (i.e., the percentaces

varied mithin the scale, although the scales were the saue for loth

Kousbaol and Party)).

B. Do jou have tao pre-1933 ((50ascaol)) Reculations:

Do you have the Regulations for 1351

A. A scale is titten out there.

B. No scale was written out there.

Without a scale, how nuch do they take:

A. Onls the entrance dues are written up there.

What is the difference betreen entrance and membership dues.

Explain it to me.

B.

The very sane anount; absolutely the same amount for

both entrance and

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## Page 22

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sealership dues.

The entrance ((cues)) - those are the first dues ((paid)); you pay

this wien you enter ((the orrantzation)) .

A. ((Reads:)) "The finanoial resources of the lonsonol consist of nonber-

ship dues and other incone.

1 Konsosol nonbor tho is at the sane tine a candidate Party nember 1s

excused

Troa

paynent of the ducs...."

B. They pay to the Party.

A. ((Continues to read:)) "... Entrance dues in the amount of tro percent

are required of each person upon entrance into the VList..."

B. So....

A. "...Of his nonthly pay."

B. To percent iron the others also.

A. ((In English)) i0, 40.

B. Ino percent a month... honestly... one ninute....

Thy entrance dues

As soon as I tas accepted in the Komsonol, ay first dues - not for

the month, but for entrance - was two percent, just as I would pay per

nonth.

A. Now I will show you there the scale is written.

B. The scale.

two percent.

.....1

Haybe, in the new ((Regulations)), but I am telling you - two percent,

A. I do not deny that the entrance dues was two percent.

Passion)

---

## Page 23

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And the monthly, tir conthly.

1. Hot true, not true.

B. Ind the monthly, two percent.

But that is the new, the lew Reculntions, new currency....

A. Hey currency.

In the old Regulations, they too: ((dues)) lie sage as io: Party nonbers.

B. This is new currency; before that, they paid two percent - the sane as

for the entrance cues; please bellove ie.

A. liby are you declaring sonething that is untrue.

((IG; A and l speal: at the sane time))

.. •

Do you want me to find the too:let ((regulations)) and bring it to you.

B. No; the entrance dues were the sane as the monthly dues -- two percent

of the pay.

A. That are entrance dues:

B. The first dues you pay upon entering the Konsonol.

You pay it once; the usual you pay every month.

A.

There vere special instruction of the CC VLKSM on the collection of

membership dues, which were sent to all Komsonol organizations, and

until the nost recent Regulations the scale was not given, except the

entrance dues - two percent.

Here, in one ((set of)) Regulations, it is written: "Entrance dues are

taken upon entrance into the Komsonol - two percent of the monthly

salary.

Fron Konsonol members who do not receive a monthly salary, entrance dues

are taken in accordance with the instructions of the CC VLKSM."

---

## Page 24

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'B. 20 Lopocis; 20 lopecies, as for -ilitary personnel.

A. (1G) .

B. Just as the entrance dues, the moniership dues -- tro percent.

A. I even rould not want to insist on ((e should not javc to press)) this

question, ecuase the Secretary of a Konsouol pimiration should know

this as he knows his five fingers.

Of course, he could jorget something, but it is nonsense to insist upon

"27 years of age" and sone other things ((such as this)).

You know that even the lovest lousonol menber linois such things.

((Pause)) Let us so back and tali: further about the jonsonol.

How and where vere you actually renoved from the tonsonol rolls before

you vere enrolled in the lossoacl in the iD.

B. I did not get off the konsonol rolls anywere, because I sas on leave;

I sas on the rolls of the konsonol organination of the inD, in Sovetsk.

A. That was the konsonol organiration of the iRD in the city of Sovetsk

called.

B. I told you that I do not reneaver esactly, but it should have icen

called the prinary lossonol organization of such-and-such a nilitary

unit.

A. To woon was the organization subordinate.

((Pause)) Perhaps I should give you sone leading questions so that you

can better renember.

Let us start with this - you came to the Baltic area or Sovetsk;

as

you said before, when did you get there?

B. 1952, Sumner 1952.

A. Summer 1952; what month:

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## Page 25

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.. about dugust.

i. Mout jugust.

B. Yes.

A. And to mint wind of vor were you assigned right away

5. I tas assigned as a senior translator-interpreter of the laP.

A. Senior translator-interpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point.

B. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Flect.

A. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

And what precisely was the Intellirence of the fourth Navy Fleet called

B. It was called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Flect.

A. It could not have been called that.

Please call things by their omi nanes.

What was it called.

It could not have been called Intelligence of the fourth Navy Fleet;

It was not called that.

It could have been called that anong the intelligence officers there.

B. No, vell, military unit, official, the military unit.

A. Hell, vist is the official nane:

B. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; the Chief of Intelligence of the

Fourth Navy Fleet; the Chief of Intelligence of the Seventh Navy Fleet.

A. That was the Directorate in Muscow called:

B.

GRU VUE.

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## Page 26

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À. iat doss GRU scan

B. Chief Intellinence Dircetorate of the linistry. of the Kavy.

1. Ministry o. the Navy.

that is Intelligenco called in the Plcet.

It could not de called Intolligence of the Fourth Navy Elect; there Is

ancther naie.

B. Of the fourth Navy Flect; nothin; else - not the ninistry, nothing.

1. Nell, for example, inagine jourself in Intelligence of the Fifth Navy

Fleet, and you are writing a request or lotter to the Chief of the

Intellisence of the Fourth Navy Flect; what is his title.

He has a certain position.

B. Position:

Chief of Intelligence of the Fourth lavy Fleet, Captain Ist Rank or

Captain 2nd Rank such-and-such, and you give his position.

A. Be more precise.

B. This is the most precise lay.

Officially, if you are corresponding hin through open channels, you

address him as Cries of Military thit such-and-such; this, by neans of

open channels.

A. Ve are not talking about the militry unit.

For what does the military unit have a nunber:

B. Well, this is for secrecy.

A. No; well, for that other reason.

((Pause)) Well, ve will return to this; bow is the Chief of Intelligener

addressed.

-SES:

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## Page 27

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The Chic: of Intellirence - that is that he ras called.

A. You said that you arrived in August 192; on orders to won

D. To Intelli,once of the fourta Navy Fleet.

A. To thon did you report wen you arrived there.

E. I arrived at saltiyst; I sound the military unit on that is, Intellicence

of the Fourth liavy Fleet; I presentou sy orders.

1. Hell, how did you get there.

How did you find it

Soncone probably told you nor to set there.

B. Vell, I aslied people whore the military unit vas; it is a closed zone --

there vere patrols.

A. Yell, you did not ast on the street - right.

B. Where else:

I was 100::ing for Military Unit suci-and-such.

I was soing to the lleadquarters of the Fleet in Baltiys!:.

I arrived at baltiysk; there vas the Conaandant's Office; there I asted

there Military Unit such-and-such ms.

A. Just a ninute; at

the beginning, I assed you how you

found the place;

you answered that you asked, etc.

Now, there did you arrive:

When you arrived in the city, there

las the first place you vent:

B. I went to the Comnandant's Office.

A. First, you went to the Conmandant's Office.

B. You know, you ast

such questions which I ansver according to how it is

AFARFT

---

## Page 28

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supposed to ta; cut, how it ras, I do not reamer; 109 it 1a5, 20w?.

First of all, 1 arrived in Kaliningrad; the train rocs to kaliningrai

iTO: Moscon.

1. Violl, lot us duell on this a little a tion, you arrivce croa Moscow

not in inlsigs., but....

D.

Kaliningrad; in inlinincrad, I tensiosted.

=

A. int us:: con the deginning; alriat

You arr...: in inliningrad, not un baltiys:.

T'or a counterintolligence officer, it is also importunt there he arrived-.

either he arrived in Baltijs:: or saliningrad.

There are tho diffcront cities; right.

3219p

B. Right.

that

shee is not even a

The fact is that coul do every Restate la Baltit

Fircra.

A. Then, practically, you could not have arrived in baltiys':...

D. Dy train.

но, по.

A. And You arrived in Kaliningrad?

((In English)) Alright.

B. Oh, you see how you judge.

A. Well, how else can I:

...: А1.

B. I arrived at the city of my designation, the city of Baltlyss, on

orders to Intelligence of the Fourth Fleet.

And how did I travel there - this....

SECaFT

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## Page 29

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¿, Listen, ¿aar collo, I do nut vent to as: jou a scoord question: I can

tell you -- you could not have arrived in saltiys:, perfod.

Tell no ti;.

3. Because the train duss not no there, on that spot....

A. Then why do jou nave to mit until I tell you that jo: did not arrive

in maltiys':, cut in Kaliningna

B. I arrived at saltiys':; Kaliningid is a transfer point.

Very vell, I have arrived in tuc far East... just i rinute... in the

Far Inst, I sado a stop at szabarovs!:, then at lonsonols: na-laur, tien

I nade anotier stop in Pivan'; finally, via Sichote-ilin', ve get to

Pyatisottia.

A. One ninute... about Sikhote-llin' - ve vill return to this question.

B. Nell, alright; you as!; de questions, and I an answering you; do you

wait to icar ay answers (XG) you arc inoching me down.

{

1

A. I an not knocking you dow at all.

Is it logical or not to ast a man, if the train does not arrive at

Baltiysi, but arrives at Kaliningrad.

Very vell; you arrived in kaliningrad.

How did you get to Baltiys

Did you go on foot or by car:

B. Well, I got there by car by hitch-hiking.

I asked how to get to Balilysk, how to get to Baltlysk.

A. Alright, you arrived.

B. I do not know who I asked, but sonewhere I asked hor I could get to

the headquarters in Baltiysi.

A. Well, there you are — you answered me; you asised soeone in the station.

SEGRET,

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## Page 30

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B. You astoú ne whos i assod; and I Said I do not enor.

((XG; A and I speal: at the sair tine))

1. Maybe you asticd a passerty, ou periaps you asted at the Commaniant s

Office in kaliningrad.

Who knows:

You should inow better.

Oi course, wen you left loscow, they sust have told you where the

intelligence headquarters fere situated.

.-..

B.

Baltlysis; I knew that I had to set to Baltiysk.

I had to taic the train to kaliningrad, and then from there it vas

only several kiloneters to Baltiys!.

..-

A. Then, they must have explained to you that you rould arrive at

Kaliningrad, and then you would have to go to Baltlys: here the

headquarters are; and they vere sure that you would set there.

B. Nell, I could tal:, and I had an outline.

A. This is what I as talking about.

You place ne in a difficult position, also, wen you say, "fell, I

arrived in Daltiysk."

...

B. Right; I did not have to go to Kaliningrad, but to Baltiyst; and I

got to Baltlysk.

A. If a person is going there by train, he has to stop before getting to

Baltiysk.

soirehere

A. If a person is going there by train, he has to stup before getting to

Baltlysk.

B. Ill Kaliningrad, in Kaliningrad.

SECRET

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## Page 31

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• A.

-30-

d.8003-200-29

Are you sure of that

B. Yep; I made a stop in kalininizad.

A. ind a train does not co to Ealtigst

B. A train does not so to baltigs!:.

A. Does not so tacre; ve, the tro of us, will remeaker this.

Fron cliniacrad to Caltiys: - jou sot there by hitchhling.

To thon did you turn venin arrived at the licadquarters of the baltic

Flcet.

Hor did you find the Intelligence leadquarters.

B. I was not at the ileadquarters of the Baltic flcot, the lleadquarters of

the Fourth Baltic Fleet.

I got to Baltiysk, found the First Connandant's Office, and assed hor

I could fet to Military Unit such-and-such; I was told on wat street

it was: After all, it is not a large town.

A. Vell, wint ins tile name of the street.

E. I do nut resenber, i absolutely do not remenber.

A. How many nonths vere you on duty with Intelligence of the Fourth Navy

Fleet

B. Four nontas; somethat over four nonths — until the end of December.

A. Here you in Baltiysk all the tine.

CATHER

B. No, in Sovetsk; the IMP was in Sovetsk, not in Baltlysk.

A. Then, what ras at Baltlysis, the Headquarters:

B. The Headquarters of the wole Fourth Navy Fleet, Including Intelligence

STARFF

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## Page 32

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of the Fourth ravy Flest mis at saltigs:.

The main base and headquarters of the fourth Nary flect ras in Baltiys::.

A. Tell, how long tere you in baltiys: vch you arrived there and reported

in; how much tine did you spend there until you left for the tip.

B. liall, perhaps it too: an your thile they arranged for transportation;

the auto too: me to tar MiP; this is several kiloneters away - fros

Baltijs:: to Soretsi.

4. Approximately how many kiloncters

B. Vell, 100l; Baltiysi: is on a spit, at the center of the spit.

You cose down iros the spit to tic nainland, where Sovetsl: is located.

A. Nell, Is It about 10-20 lilonetors away.

B. No, its about 6 or S kiloneters arny; 10, not nore.

A. You are sure that you worked in Sovetsts

B. Yes; I know that I vorked in Sovetst, I rorled in Sovetsi.

A. Maybe you have confused this with another city.

в. No, по.

A. Because I do not want you to say to me again later that you made some

kind of an error.

B.

Well, let us take a look at the map; I an not sure of anything right

now; I an not sure of anything.

Why?

Because you are twisting me around.

You are twisting everything around; you are twisting everything around.

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## Page 33

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1. I an not twistine any thing around.

B. Give se a nap of the Soviet Union, and I vill siow you -- icre, nore

is Baltlys:; here, here is Sorets:; and this is the place sacre I was.

A. icll, I will show you a map right soz.

B. Very well; I will point out richt amy were I ins.

1. Here is Volune 19 oi the Lalithaya Sootstaya Entsiklopediya; this

volume mas approved for pullication, 15 June 1933, approximately one

year after you vere there.

3. Just a sinute... the spit, Baltiys:... and Primorsis, not Sovetsk.

Here it is -- Prinor'ye, prinors':... just a sinute.... Prinorsk, Prisors?

A. Just a minuto.

B. This is Sovetsk.

1. Thon, thy -- in the past and today - have you insisted on Sovetsk.

((XG; A and B speak at the same tine))

B. Why I said Sovets!:, I do not inow - Prinorsi.

A. Answer me - wy did you say Sovetsk.

B. Thy did I say so:

In m nry, Sovets's... the city of Primorsk.

A. Well, what do you think - a man who has worked in the GRU, in

Intelligence, went to the Baltic Fleet, to Intelligence of the Fourth

Navy Fleet, worked there for several nonths... and confused everything

(("confused God's gift with scrambled eggs")).

SECRE

---

## Page 34

—3R=

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₽.

Priors:, Priors:, Prinors:, Prinors:; shy did I say Sorts:

Jo jou Erow shore Sovets!: is

I do not now; irinors: is it the bezinning of the soit.

1. Tell, I thin': you should answer my question -- were is Soretsi.

For two joars you have almays said Sorets:, Surets!.

B. Sovets:, Prinorsily fray; Sorats::, Prinorskiy "raj; Irtorsi.

A. Fell, one sore question - fros there did you set "rrinorsily Kray":

B. Nell, this is a tray by the sea, ly the sea - Prinorstly Kray; It is

by the sea - Priorskiy Kray.

A. How was it, as you told ne the last tide, that you recolved lotters

addressed to you

B. 'Sovets!:, Primorskly Bray; coll, it neans, the city... of Prinorsis,

Prinoiskiy tray... sonething....

A. The last tizo, I intentionally asiod may jaliningrad ins called

Kaliningrid; I asked and ansvered the question.

The question I asted, every schoolboy knows -- there is no Prinorskiy

Kray there and there never ras.

And then, an intelligence officer - and besides that, a counterin-

telligence oificer - a man who has graduated fron the Institute of

International Relations, cannot....

fell, alright; why are you always pushing, pushins, pushing me on this

I do not renenber.

fell, I aised It up... well, Prinorsk...

I told you right away, that is the place.

that can I do.

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## Page 35

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to ill, I do tot unferstond lo? wen 1ão has nirngs lind n the Sortat

Union, in oncor, and has as I tentioned a all on your serits -

on the basis of mies you shold know a does not taor wore de vas and

non he could roonive lotters in the city of Sorets:,

minorsily trey…..

B. PrinOrS:, Prinors:.

..

..inen ic did not vor: in Sovots':, and there never me a primorsily tray

(li cives D volue 19 of the Dol shana Soretstaya antstilopedira and

asts hin to read fron page 12c, on Kaliningrad.))

B. ((Reads:)) "Kaliningrad, (until 1946, Monieshers) - a city, capltal

of Kaliningrad Oblast rSISi.... Caliningrad becane a part of the uSSr.

on the basis of the 3erlin Conference of 1945.... On 1 July 1316, the

city was given tie naue of !!. I. KALIWIl, one of the leaders of the

Connunist Party in the Soviet state."

A. INLINE, Kaliningrad; well.

B. Kaliningrad.

1. Kaliningrad; right.

B. Right.

A. Now, read about Kaliningrad Oblast.

B. ((Reads:)) "Kaliningrad Oblast -- an oblast of the RSFSR.

Established, Y April 1946, on the ancestral lands of the true Baltic

Slays...•

A. That is enough; we do not need any more; it is only general lafornation.

B. Make any conclusions you wish.

I was in the place which I showed you - Prinorsk; why I said Sovetsi,

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## Page 36

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Priorsily Jay, I do not now.

A.

Do you know how many settlements and ans called Minors: there are

In the Soviet Union

B.

I do not inow.

A. You do not Enor

5. NO.

A. I have counted then.

D. Well.

A. There are nore than 70 in the Soviet Union; which Primorst were you in.

B. That which... that, that which, here the iRP of the Fourth Fleet vas...

not far fron Baltiysk.

I can show you were it is right avay.

A. You told me that you were in that Prinorsis and in that Sovets! mich is

located in Prinoiskiy liay; now I do not understand, lecause there is no

Prinorstly Kray.

B. Right.

I told you, the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; vy, I do not know.

I have, in mind

this prinorsk., here; that is all.

A. Let us talk logically.

Every Soviet man -- we will not mention counterintelligence, higher

education, etc. — who has graduated fron high school probably will

know that there never was a Irimorskly Kray in the Hest and that

Kaliningrad Oblast was forned tron Konigsberg; and everyone knows why,

and in those honor it was naned.

I just want to understand - are you playing around with me, or do you

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## Page 37

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B.

really not know and not snow even

this iDCs

Thy should I play around with you sen you nave enouch documents and

you alrays can find out and checks it

way should I play around.

• *.

What a strange queston that is:

2.60d

A. I thin' that perhaps I nade a meat error in sivini you the documents --

naybe we could inve talied without them - bechuse last time you said

the sane thing; you denied everything and insisted....

B. Hell, that can I do, li it was in my ucnory - as I said -- Sovetsi

Prinorskiy Tray.

I have in mind the Prinors!: in thich the iRP was located.

A. Nell, In that other cities vere you while you were scrving there.

B. ((Pause)) I was in Baltiys!:.

A. Others.

13. Kaliningrad; that is all.

1. How nany times were you in kaliningrad, before your permanent assignnent

there:

B. One time; I-flew in, in 1945; it was not Kaliningrad at that time - it

was Konigsberg.

A. Konigsberg; then you worked in Baltlysk, how often did you visit

Kaliningrad.

B. Well, perhaps I went there one tine.

A. How much tine did you spend in Baltlysk Itself.

• Or how often were you there.

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## Page 38

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B: I mas in saltigs: men I artlued tiere for the lirst tire: and aside

tron that 1 mont oisr twice to see Comander-in-Chief GOLOl:O; that is

all:

A. And after that, where were you all the tine.

Б.

I vas in Prisors: all the tine, at the hiP.

1. Well, tell =e -- wat is prinorst; now big is the town

B. It is an aisolutely meckod, alsolutcly eched town.

It is a very suall, sall town.

It sas a saall sottlouent (naselenn: run:t); its people -- I have la

mind Geruns - vere fishernen.

A. Explain to se vay, the last tine, you argued mith ne - "That aro you

rolling ne. I received letters at the city of Sovets!, Prinorssly

Kray! "

B. Fcll, 100: -- in sy menory, I have "the rity of Sovcts!, Prinors: is

Kray"; that is all.

Why?

A. Well, ve vill retura to this letter.

Like the rest of the nilitary personnel, you reccived letters at the

military mit; how were the letters addressed to you by your friends,

relatives, parents.

B. In different ways, to the Far East and here.

A. Well, how did they address them... well, "here ((Sovetsi)) ':

B.

fell, "here" - according to uy memory, as I told you ln my memory.

I do not renenter.

My memory retains "City of Sovetsk, Prinurskly Fray, Military Unit

such-and-such, ((b's full nure))' - tell, I made a mistake here; I am

SERIET

---

## Page 39

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....

• tollins you i had trinors: in mind.

À :

may did you say...

B.:

I ¿s not inow, because I do not ronenbor; I remember it as I said.

à. You do not remonter maich military unit

B. I do not romenter.

A. You yourself told e that you nade an crior; you do not....

B. Well, sisy.

Because I inuodiately snoved you that place; i had in aind "City of

Sovets:, Prinorsily Kray" -- the city of Prinorsi.

A. There are many cities en the nap, and you can point out a lot of things.

I told you that, in the Soviet Union, there are more than 70 places

nased Primors!:.

((In Englisia)) You sos,

thare is a Primorsis on tac Baltic, one noar Artiangelsi, one near

Intrnansk, one on the Blac!: Sea, one on the iz0/ Sea, one on the Caspian

Sea, one on the Pacific Ocean... there are Primorsks everywhere near

the sca.

B. In 1952, there was one Headquarters of the Fourth Navy Fleet, waich tas

in one city, in Baltiysk; aud the IMP, which was subordinate to.

Intelligence of the Fourtil Navy Fleet, also was only one and was in

Prinorsk ....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. You are smart enough to make up a premise and inagine how it was - uo

one can take this away fron you.

((Pause)) Hell, give me one example then you received a letter, let us

say, in Prisors!, and so forth - a letter from your parents or your

---

## Page 40

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airl island: now did they address the lctter to you

D. I do not iricaber, I do not rencabar.

&. What address did you give then.

B. City, then military unit; it is possiblo to rite just Tilitary Unit

so-and-su", then to so-inc-so.

1. Vell, su have cone to the question taat I wanted to as: you - the

Far Last.

3. And the sone goes for Sovetshaya Gavan' - "Sovetstaga Gavan, or just

"military Unit 30170".

A. There is a cortain rule -- there is no "either... or".

((inich ins 1t -)) both the city and the nilltary unit vere indicated,

or only the military unit without the city.

B. I recoived lotters addressed both to the city and the nilitary unit, and

simply to the ailitary unit.

1. And what reculations were in force.

B. During the var, during the var....

A. We are not talking about var time, but....

В. Оп, по....

A. We are talking about 1952, when you were in the Baltic area.

If you want to talk about the var, ve can go bac's to the war at anoter

time, and I an sure you will not be able to answer me if te talk about

the war.

B. I did not take part ((in the war)); I do not know what jind of a questior

you would put te ne.

-

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## Page 41

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I. Hot you are saying that you did not talin nart in sir mer. but earller,

you said sat near cunpu, joe sad suen a fire, tart tie cammens..oa

1

Do toll, I as not in contact, i man not la contaci....

à. ...In tais uistanes, I en sinply triting mithout any particulaa sensa ot

anger or saranoe.

2. dell, a to angry.

Tou are doing vous doc: do: rea 708:10i.

It is enotion thing tat you are gustin, out boois that is another

thins.

À. I do not think tiere are any 300!s.

B. Oh, yes; my God:

Loo:: at your questions.

1. Just a minuso: for tro days, I have boen listening to you, and you

alvays insist upon "Sovets:, Diaorsaly 12'ay."

I thin's that one of us is arusy.

5. I an not crary, but zayto 1 soon will be; I have been imprisoned for

433 days....

((XG; is and B speal: at the sase tine))

I have read nothing; the brain needs training, exercise. •

A.

then I as: a question, you listen.

Of course, li you are soing to sit there and thin's up net storles -

what to answer to a question and so forth - of course, you vill be at

your wit's end.

-=..

---

## Page 42

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i Due then I do not resealer, I try to ronenter (43).

A. You aaid carlion that the distance

fon initios: to Sovote: is 10-13

mt mach Sorotsi: is not noar Sultigs: at all...

B. lali, inlooes:, Prinorst:

d. How can one bolieve you

Tat in the nattor

D. liell, 100!: -- 11 you are coins to count 10-13 kilozaters, and 11 it is

25... you will ast, "jow is that."

A. I have not the slightest Intention of arcuing about two, ten or five

kiloneters, a'solutely none.

This is not uy probles, because I...

B. I understand; you are looing at it fron the point of view that I said

Soretsli, and jou 100: for Sorots':, but there is no Soretsi:; so, you

say, "What is he saying."

A. I do not have to 100: - I know there Sovetsi: is.

This is ny nent question - there is a Sovets!: in alingrad Oblast; now,

yeu tell ne were it is; you should now and there was an intelligence

point there.

Tell ne abo'st it. ((Pause))

B. I do not know.

A. A san tho has worked in the Intelligence of the Fleet, in Kalingradsk

Oblast, if be insists that he was in Baltlysk, Kaliningrad, Sovets's; -

although he changed it from Sovetsk to Primorsk....

((XG; A and B speais at the sane tine.))

PELI

183.143

---

## Page 43

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A; is tould nor, There Sounts: tr, also, inonuse there is a Soretsk in

"alingrad Oblast.

...-

• B. Then tay do you confuse no, lay ac you confusing ie.

• *

A: I an not confusin; you; jou me confusing jourself.

3. I do not now, I do not know.

(G; a and i spea' at the sane tine.))

A.

..Tuere is n sovstsks; if you torted there, thon you must know; now,

caplain to ne there it is.

D. I do not linos.

I an telling you that, in gy neuory... Sovets:, Primors!:ly Kray.

lay do not I see Sovets: there.

liel1, I had Prisors!: in mind.

There,. thore.. this place..

here it is - noi on the spit, but

beiore the spit....

A. If me corsicer that you vere vorking... or that you hold the position

of senior translator-interpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point... woll,

I even will laagaine for a ronent that you rere in Prinors..... then you

should know preciscly that there is a Sovets!: and there ins also a Navy

Intelligence Point there.

Even if you vere not there, you

should know this through correspondence-

because these points

arc connected sonehor.

B. You do not have to tell nemy fairy tales; please do not tell me tales.

Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, in August 1952 -- wen I arrived,

had only one single poiut; if there were any others before that, then

they were eliminated.

There was one in Rostock, Sassniti, Suinenunde - all of them vere

shut down.

1727P.

---

## Page 44

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...

A. lia sill tal: aout Suinenunce and Sassntil - you tre thera and then

jou said that you had not boon there.

If we hare to, no can returu to that question, also.

I cannot understand why you should le nervous.

5. Thy nervois.

Because I ail in prison; rechuse all 1 can see is 100:s, hoo:s, 100!is,

hools, 100=s, h00is, and a areat desire to maio ma cut as guilty; Lord

knons, treat accusations are leing levied spinst me.

A. I do not rent to make you out suilty; no one vants to -- you yourself

do this.

B. Only that way, only that iay.....

A. Hell, how can it be believed, men for tro years you vere sajing -

Sovcts:, Soretsis, Sorets'; 10 or lu ailonetors fron Baltlys:; that is

all.

B. Very well; show ae that map once nore.

1. I do not seo any reason to do so; I do not vant to show you Sovetsi:.

Tie will cone to it, and I fill show you; I will hring you a large map.

Your statement that those intelli one points vere elininted -- even if

they had been clininated, they rere there, and it is an establised

fact, and no one makes a secret of it.

B. What was there:

There were they

They had only one point.

A. You tell se where.

If you say that there was one point, then you were not there — that is

that the question is about.

B. I have nothing to say to you, because I an telling you the way I

Viper

---

## Page 45

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roughbor 1s, the waj it sas 100t ta to bord.

1. Tell, you see, perhaps again you will sa; that 1 ais putting out too:s

Ior jou -- today you say, ... "me iny I renenber"; yesterday, you

Insisted, thne "It ins Sovets:: that is final:", and that you received

letters, "Sorts':, mrinorstiy tray".

B. Right, richt.

A. Today, to now that there is no mrinorsily tray, and you vere not in

Sovets!:.

Then, how an I to....

B. For no, for ie... even thout you silowed me the nap... for no --

"Sovcts!:, Prinorskty Kray"; may

I do not inos, I do not inow.

A. You now very vell that in loscow Oblast - ((there is)) loscow City,

in Loningrad Oblast - Leningrad, in Krasnochi tray - Unsnodar, in

Ryzan' Oblast - Ryazan', in Kaliningrad Oblnst -- Kaliningrad; thore

never ins i Prinorshly Kray there.

B. And naybe you are confusing ne on purpose

A. How:

How for cranble:

B. Well, give ne that nap; I will show you now - because Sovetsk is near,

close to the sea.

A.

((Close)) to what?

Vi:

B. Well, Sovets's... well, where our IRP was situated, on the shore of the

sea... ((Pause))

Well, why are you sulling:

A. Maat else can I do.

-SECRET

---

## Page 46

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3. You have conpletely alued so un --alrl-st: thin: diat you tish; I

cannot, I cannot, I cannot do anythins.

À. I thin: that if me will talk it over together and try to find a comboa

languago, I thin: that....

B. 1 an appling nli of the strenith taat I have left, although there is

onij a little left.

sorried

À. (1G)

B. Well, jes, isre I have lost 30, 10, 30 pounds at a tine.

1. liell, I do not thin: that you thin': that I an to blane.

B. No, no, no; in no case do I blase you personally.

1. Then, ons of the reasons you have lost ((weight)) -- ((although)) jou

((rang)) have not lost - is that you save been sajing that you tere ir

places were you wore not.

D. This is one of the wonderful reasons - ((in English)) attitude.

A. I thin': It is lucia better than there, in the ilotherland.

B. I have not done tine there; of course ((it is vorse there)) ....

((laughs)

A. Are you sure that you have not done time.

B. ((Pause)) This is the strangest question.

A. For ne, it is not strange at all - becuase, when you speak with

someone, and he cannot say there he was ind so forth... he las sonerhere,

rigat:

B. I am telling where

I ras; a man is free, free to nake a mistake.

-SEGRET

---

## Page 47

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i, tree to mic a big aista: (1G).

Do And to renonier... as you wish... on... I do not renasser anything -

neither the Regulations, nor the party.

I do not vant to reapaber any Regulations.

i. I told you the last tine that, 1d you do not rogenber your Party eard

number, I vould question thore jou vore a Party neaber - that is true;

I an telling you openly, and I na not hiding it.

B. Right, right - Lecuase I have no rigo; i cannot sion ay Party card.

If I shoved you my Party card, jou could say, "Oh, jou can trite

vatever you need" -- that is thy I never can prove engthing to you,

Ií you do not vant to beliere...

A. I vant to isliere, but I cannot.

B. I never can prous it to you.

A. I vant to iclieve...

Listen; do you renlly thin: that I oaly brought the bol sibe sovots te

Intsillopediya to put you in a diaficult position -- for enable, vita

Sovets!: or Baltiys::

I brought it for one purpose, and that vas -- to shot jou that you vore

maling an error; it is not the ray you are saying it is.

If you had been in Prisorstir tasy, then my question nould have keen --

in the far East, or sonewere elsa.

((XG; 1 and B speai. at the Sana tize))

^"..."

д......

There was never a Prinorsily Iray in the Baltic area.

If you had made an error about soue village ((Shory-Tery" 1.e., an

imaginary "sonewhere")), then I vould not question it; but men 1t

cones to talling acout a moie oblast - mich everyone inows about,

which was German territory, maich since 1946 after the death of KALININ

has been called kaliningrad Oblast, but you call It florskly Kray -

:

---

## Page 48

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tion, doo sato enesos alona, 1 anue raturand to tais cuestion tarea

sues, and I tought tae croyclopedia to sion it to jou: 14i2 10t

compile it ((the encyclopedin)).

3. Cue minute, one minato.., nagio a I do not canother a call, nayba

the letters more ascorsid, "Dovets: Dy the Sea (Soreto: morsiy)

or to dovil inous raat.

................

¿. I do nut inow; you more there; I ins not: bat, rasperez I mas, I ano

how I recoived lotters.

B. I do not rencabei, I do not innenber, I do not semenier; thin: viat

you will - I do noi renelor, as I told jou.

1. It cannot be so.

Again, you... parians you tried -- I do not now -- perhaps you really

thin' that that is the iny you wrote it -- "Sovets!: 3y the Sea" --

like that; but if you 100: at the mop, there is another Sorets::.

icar Arthlansols: there is anothor Sorcts':, also, by the sea.

It you mite "Sovots!: Dy the Sea", the post oifice will never find it;

there has to be sunethin; other ((than that)).

3. I do not remenber, I do not renember.

I do not inow thy I regeaber, as I told jou, "Sovets:, Priaorsiiy Kray".

I do not inow.

A. One more littlc question - I want you to tell ne nore or less precisely

if you rcally vere in the Baltic arca, and for how long.

B. I told you that i arrived there in lugust, and at the end of December

..*•I went on leave.

: ::

A. Do you renchber what you said earlier - how long were you there, and

how you were there.

How do you explain the discrepancies.

NORGET

---

## Page 49

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B. I do not renaiver how such I said, mat I sald --i do not reneater.

A. Earlier, at ona tie, you said you sere there nore than a year: then,

you said you sere there alnost a year; then,

5 montis; nos, you say

you tore there four and half conths.

I vant you to toll ne for the last time lacther jou vere there of not.

D. I sas there, in the sumor; I arrived approximatoly in lurust and as

thore unti; "ic end of Decomber; at the end of Deceaber, to ny thinking,

I loit for tuscow, in 1952... at the end of Deceuber 1952.

A.

Nell, that uns interesting there, ten you vore in inliningrad

what do you ronenber about inliningrad

that kind of life vas there at that time in 1952.

B. fell, I did not live there.

A. Surcly you vere there:

B. Hell, I passed through.

Perhaps one tine I vent there with the follors for a drini. un Sunday...

and wen I ras leaving.

A. Hell, 1f you went for a diinli, that particular thing niaht you renember.

That do the sailors usually icconnend to drink in Kaliningrad

B. I do not inow, I do not lnow, I Ho not lnow, I do not know.

A. That is there.

B.. I drank vodka.

A. Did you ever so to the movies.

B. No, I never went to the movies.

-.- . •

A. "eli, what - you just went to primorsk and did not go anytere:

---

## Page 50

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B. mat -- do jos thin: I sas there in Sorets: for jears

à. Vell, if one is to bolicie that you fore there for fou and a half

months, you could not have spont all of your tine at the base.

B. Voll, I did spend all o. my time there.

A. You tore there day anci night

B. Yes, that is mere we lived.

i. I understand that you lived there; on your days off, you must have

gone sonothere, right.

You just cannot sit around like that all the tiac.

B. I do not renesher; well, nayhe... it scens ve went to lelenotrads!,

a resort tom on the coast.

We stayed there ((at the hase)) all the tine.

Euy, anyray, you know - I thin; that I is right mien I said Sovetsk.

Why

Because this little town could not even ho on the sap, on that may; it

could not be; it is too saall ior this - tiere is no population there;

there is a little settlenent.

I do not inor tly it ras called "the city of Sovets:," a settlenent.

A. For your inforation - of course, there is in kalingrad Oblast a city

called Sovetss, but it is not a settlement and it is not & small torn:

there are no other settlenents by the name, Sovetsi.

B. I have in mind that Sovetsk which lies

on the approach to the spit.

A. There is none — that is my anster to that question, vithout even

thinking it over.

B. May I see that nap once again.

This map - I will show you.

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## Page 51

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.. I will ria: jou a bigger one.

Do lo, that ons -I vant to shot jou the place.

A. I do not vant to sion it to you, menuse a every time - cou tell mo....

¡or cramplo, today you saiu, "oh, not Sorets!, ((but)) rrirors."

B. Ho; ons ninuto - do not say that, do not say that.

1. Wcll, 1: I show you the na?, you will say, "il, that ins it: I aade a

mista:e again - it vas not trimoss:", but you will say it is soacthint

olse.

Let us Icave it just as it is.

B. You see... you see how you approach this question.

A. Well, bow elsc can I approach tiis question.

You are suart cnough!

As sool as I shoved you, you innodiately said, "I an sorry: I do not

know how I made the nistake. Prinorsk."

When I told you that ticie is a Sorets: and a Primorsk in Kalininurad

Oblast, then later -- after 15 ninutes - you begin to talal: "overthe-

less, this place is Sovetsk.

Such a little place - I do not know why it is called a city.

Not anotier."

B. You show me a nap; on this may this Sovetsk is not to be found; I

point out - here, here is the spit... Baltlysk; right there... this

Is Prisorsk; 1f it is not Sovets!s; It neans I vas mistaken, that is all.

A. There is a Sovets:.

B.. Then, I was right; you are confusing ne.

&. There is a Sovetsk.

-SECRET

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## Page 52

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'I. Then, I a9 richt:

sion, I an iight; you are confusin:

112.

A. I an not confusing jou at all.

I did not ass you to 100! at tao map and say, "I an sorry; it vas not

Sovets':, but Priuorsk."

I did not ast: you about that.

If you cers there, you should now; you should trow Sovets::, Prinors:,

Baltiysk, a•d Zelenograds:.

B. As if, for the four months that I vas there, I mes travoling all over

the place, studying the mag....

It absolutely was not that ind of work.

1. Just for that reason alone, you should now that... If one is to

believe that you said, you were in Intelligence of the fourth Navy

Flcet... for this reason alone, you nust know.

If you had said another reason - that you rere doing southing else -

I rould not even as:; perhaps you night not even lave heard of these

toms.

But 11 you vorted there, you sust know -- because all of these cities

harl and have a direct relation to lavy Intelligence.

B. Way do you say that

Intelligence is not counterintelligence; it isn t countcrintelligence; i

is not concernca vita questioas....

This is daily vork, daily vori; you do not necessarily have to be there

((to know about these places))... because you are sitting and vorking...

today, soneone or other cones fron a Nayy unit; tonorror, someone comes

fron sone other place... you go sone other place for a couple of days,

and 50 on and so on...

B.

The fellors did not go anyaere except to Baltiysk; they did not go

any where.

A. Then it must have been a poor Navy Intelligence Point, that they

---

## Page 53

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were not coins anythins.

B.

But the tosts were changed, absolately; thore was only one tas: -

the proparation of agent manned observation

posts

against the event

of Her; that is all; there mas nothing nore; tacre vas no agent vor:

at all.

A.. Kell, if you are talkin;

about work, I think we. will return to it in a

little mile.

If me are to believe wiat

you said before, then you did not ever say

anytaing about what you did in Intellinence there, that you vere

oscupied with entircly different matters there.

B. Well, and it was because I ras occupied with this, that i decided to

get out of the chu.

A. Let us take a little brea:.

B. lay I snoke.

A, liell, thint it over a little... after our rather loud tali of today.

B. I only as: that you forgive no; maybe I... you must understand me as

man to nan... majbe sosetinos I get aroused, perhaps raise the tone of

my voice; mall, please, do not day auy attention to it....

A. As I told you - I an not angry at all.

B. ...Because this does not relate to

you personally... ((it is my›)

nerves, or the devil inons rat.

44200220 2000026

A. I fully understand that.

Haybe sonetines I ask "interesting" questions and I try to get the

anspers.

It is not ay task to make you nervous.

-SECRET

---

## Page 54

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..

- •-

If go: not terrous goursale, this trocids only on got.

It is jiry diericule, prob foone, to tale with you, recause jou nake

such misties in ansrorer, questions caled any

schoolboy can inster.

I still cannot set it in cy wind, isr

ee a percon as you, miti such

position

and status, dors nut

12n 0*7

minors ily Kray and inliningrad

Oblast.

Thy

Explain to ae

B. Well, I do not inow, I do not inor.

I an telling "ou as I regaaber it - Sovets:, Primorsily Kraj -- the

devil inous vil.

Right ((you are right)) .

A. l'ell, let no as: one more small question beinre you finish your

cigareite.

KALIID died....

B. all, is they as: me in that year aLrill died....

A. I an not asicing ten KALININ died.

It is not necessary to rcisember, I would not ast another man this

question.

Inasnuch as you said thai you father vas & Minister, who held a high

position, etc., apparently he respected "grandfather" SALININ.

_B. Yes.

A. Without doubt; whenKALINIll died, vere you at the funeral - you yourself..

:

:

3. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. Your father probably was at the funeral....

---

## Page 55

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Po ies, of course.

i.

...Decause his position roquires it so.

It is not scorssary: maybe he vas not, but pore llicly he ras.

B. Sos, jos.

i. is you said, your father had nany avards, cite.

You now that all people in nich places in to? Sariot Union, especially

in loscow, and especially "linistors, recelve their asards fron the

hands of the President.

ind before SLIli, Wikhail Ivanovich, dicd he, of course, shoot hands

with your father.

And probably, when ALll dies, your inther said: "I an sorry etc...

the man died... He was President for a long tire; he ras respected by

all, by those who lilie the Sovict Union and by those tho do not lilie

the Sovict Union."

B. He was fron peasant stock, a simple vorter.

A. Vell, if we loo: at it even fron this point of view, it is possible

that there was a fanily conversation: "Tanis, that at least one thins

"ras done - they naned Kaliningrad Ohlast in senory of kALININ".

B. I do not renember.

A. Nell, I do not insist that it vas that way, but it might have been.

B. I can_tell-you more — I knew his-nlece-very well.

• i

A. Then the nore so; in that case, there may have been discussions, perhaps

on this subject.

B. No, there was no discussion on this subject.

A. Tell, I do not insist that there was; but there could have been, right.

SECRET

---

## Page 56

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Must for m

"B. Yes, yes.

A.

And, of course, as I said, it is difficult for me to understand why

you do not now about such a simple thing as taliningrad Oblast and

Prinorstly tray.

I cannot understand it at all.

You told us that you travoled over the Sorict Union extensively, moing

on TOY's and

so forth.

You now that counterintalligence officers know the territory very well,

oven if they do not vork in it.

Then, lallingrad Oblast is a good place for agent training and for

everythip..

It is forner German territory.

One can bring those people, put them in Gorin houses or sonething

like that.

B. ((KG))

A. Tie will hare a break for a few minutes.

( (BREAK))

There; I have just obtained the Administrativno-Territorial noye

Deleniye Souznykh Respublic, published In 1954.

There is kaliningrad Oblast and it also is witten that there is a

city of Sovets!: and a Sovetskiy Rayon.

If you are still uncertain mere it was etc., read, starting from the

top.

Remy far

•B. ((Reads)) "Kaliningrad Oblast - capital -- Kaliningrad... Name of

Rayon - Sovetskly...."*

A. Further, further; look down below....

B. Here is the "city of Sovets'".

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## Page 57

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1 city of oblast subordination.

B. Of oblast subordination.

It is subordinate to taliningrad.

A. To the Kaliningrad Oblast Soviet.

B. Sovetsk....

A. And what there is of rajon subordination.

B. These are "tou types (gorodslogo tipa)".

A. Further, there are small tows mhich are in Kaliningrad Oblast.

B. Plcase show ne that map again.

((After 100!:ing at the nap:)) Here is Baltiysi:, right

And Sovetsi was fron Baltiysk... this vas on the spit...

spit.

It was here soucwere...

But it could be...

I tell you I renember Soretsk, Prisorskiy Kray.

Eccause... mhat is it...

For mhat... I do not know.

before the

--•:..

A. Here is Sovetsk: ((A shows Sovets' on the map);

B. No, no, no, no; in no case ((not that Sovetsk)).

Here, right here.

Here, here, here ((shows another location))

Directly... see... at the beginning of the spit, at the very beginning

of the spit; here, right here.

Maybe I have Primorsk in nind... Lord knows... in my nemory, it 15

Sovetsk, Prinorskly Kray.

Tay:

The devil knows.

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## Page 58

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Haybe, about this pricorst... I do not know.

This is there our EP ias.

Here is & saall, snall... It is not even a city; it is a saall, small

settlement.

A. There is no other Soretsic.

3. Well, well, it ins there.

Way in my menory -- Sovetsi, Prinorstig Kray; I do not knot.

In no cose (XG) Soretsk.

4. I think that....

5. No, no, no; in no case, this Sovets.:.

It is at the very beginning of the spit.

Baltlys! is on the spit, and this is at the beginning of the spit.

A. That do you thin' - it is difficult to male a mistake betreen Sovets!:

and Primorsk?

Right.

B. Well, way.

Look, here also is a Priors!.

Well, I do not know way it stayed in my nemory that it was Sovetsk,

Prinorskiy Kray.

The devil knows.

A. I make the conclusion that it is possible that at one time you could

have visited there..

B.

There was no reason — only when I was at that ARP.

A.

..Kaliningrad Oblast and so forth...

But everything adds up to ((the conclusion)) that your knowledge is so

small and you cannot confirm in any way that you had worked there.

You know absolutely nothing about it, even about the existence of

SECRET

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of kalininind Oblast; I cannot undorstand this at all.

I can onli saj, speaking with a man tao lived all of his lifc in the

Soviet Union, in doscow and in other cities... and the ((inliningrad))

Oblast has been in existence since 1946... he mies such a mistake -

Prinorsiy dray -- when it nover was called that.

I. I do not lnow why in my nemory...

I tell you that I renember: Sovets!:, Prinorskiy tray.

But why.

The devil inors.

Dui I have in mind that little place at the vory beginning of tha

spit, at the very beginning of the spit.

A. Of course, the spit is there; it has not wandered off anythere.

It still has not washed away; it was there, and it is still there.

But, of course, you nust understand, it is difficult, quite difficult,

to believe that you vere there, wen you cannot say for sure there you

were.

B. Nell, I an telling you where I was.

A. You renenber, of course, that, you nentioned to ne that Baltiys!: fornerly

Ins called Pillau....

B. Pillau -- "this is the forner Pillau."

A.

..And Sovetsk; you did not say exactly how....

B. I even do not know wat it was called.

It was a Gernan name.

A. Well, you did not tell me exactly that this was called.

You thought that formerly it was called so and so; this means you have

in mind sone town.

B. This Sovetsis had a German name.

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It was a shall, small fishin; nottierent, nothin sore, althout tacie

nore several muildings.

The tam itself ins ravaged.

Judring b; everythint, it ras a larce fishing settlement.

A.

Well, aster the death of Mikhail Ivanorich WALliNi, the city of

Konigshers is renased taliningrad, on & July 1345.

The city, oi course, is quite large.

But, of course, in 1047, there as alnust nothing there.

B. It is treched - I ichumber the elt. call - but the plant renained.

A. Do you resenher - then you tere there, wat kind of newspagers vere

published there, and that kind of norspapers did you read there

B. Hell, ve read our on paper, which was the Flect newspaper.

1. Wat was it called

B. I do not even reneuber the nane.

In tae Far East, it vas Called lin Stranha Toding (On Guard of the

Fatherlent), but I do not knot that is mas called here.

A. Tat, too, is quite strange.

B. Tell, I do not remember the name; I do not ramenher.

1. Yell, what kind of newspapers did the Oblast Party Committee and the

Oblast Soviet publish.

B.

I do not inow, I do not know; I do not resember.

A. Fell, I thinks that if you vere there, you should remember sonething;

right:

B. Understand ue, I do not reneater; I do not remember.

SEGRE

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First or all, lt too long 200, aed secondly, l tas lore for a very

sort railc; I did not live in Kaliningrad.

1. "I did not say that you liver there.

It 1s not nocossaiy to live

in caliningrad.

They sond the nersyaper all ovni dis oblast, to tas military, to

everyone.

B. le iccrived the ailitary norspager.

No did not have to subscribe in order to receive tag merspaper.

1. Even if you to to the "Ionia doo", it could he there, on the tables;

It is not necossary to read it.

D. Pravda, Investiya, laying therc... and the Fleet nerspener.

A. That kind of Fleet newspaper.

E. I do not renomber what it vas called; I do not remember.

A.

You vere in the Far Rest carlier, but you renenber that name - Na

Strazne roding:

Well, I vas there for

a long tine; Na Strache Roding.

A. ... But this was later, and you do not renember.

B. I do not remenber.

A.

Belleve me; it is difficult for me to believe that you were there, in

that situation and in that position, at the Intelligence Point, in

Intelligence, etc....

B. A man arrives; he never was there ((before)); should he bother about

the oblast, about what kind of newspapers are published there.

I did not know anyone in the group; I absolutely did not know anyone,

PFANFT

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- 51 -

• not one san.

A. Ind, again, your statenent that you did not no anyone in the group

indicates that you were not there.

3. I said that, boiore that, I alci not inow anyono; it vas an absolutely

new Group loi ie.

A. Who ras the Chief of Intelligerec.

P. I do not remember; a colonel... I do not renenber his name.

A. Thon do you resember fron men you vere there, from amon, the counter-

intelligence officers.

B. I did not know any of the counterintelligence officers: I did not inow

one of them.

But you knew that they existed... or did you.

B. Well, in general, I knew - there has to be a Special Departuent

(Osobvy Otdei), how else

A. Then you were there, did you ever have occasion to meet counterintelli-

gence officers.

B. Ho.

A. You know that nost of the enployees of the organs of the KGB... ((they

are)) specially ((fron anong)) those who are nore or less faithful

Komsonol nembers or Conmunists.*..-

They have been, franily, put on the hook — that is to say, recruited

into tark for or cooperation with the organs - and then, nany of them

became staffers of the organs; I have ((this)) in mind ((when I ask

you)) - when you vere in the Baltic, while working in Navy Intelligeuce,

did you have any connection with counterintelligence?

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•B. itsolutely none; and in the far East, -bere I ras for a 10n" tine, I

had absolutely no connections.

A. Well, if you did not, you did not have; but I thin': it vould be logieal

for you to renozber the naue of tho Chief of Intelligence.

B. I do not renenber, I do not regerber.

A. And what about the Deputy Chier

B. I also do not renever.

A. leil, nane soncone nith won you forked.

B. I ronenber... whos

There tas Capt 3d Pan!: DEICHENKO; there as an officer naned BULANI.

A. What was his ran!:

B. Schior Lieutenant; there was also a captnin-lleutenant... I remember

his face very vell, but I do not renomber his nage an it seems ((it vas):

YELISEDi, but there is a bir question ((about this))...

I do not resenter; but I renenber those two names.

A. You remeaber DECIDINO, BULAN, and jos are not sure about yeLISeral.

B. Yes.

A. Did you have any friends with whom you fere pals while you vere there.

B. Tell, what sind of friendship.

I was there only four months.

A. Well, whea you went to eat with soneone.

day off or nad a drink with him...

There nust have been sone such person.

• or you talked with him on a

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- 53 -

*B. One zinute... zullal did not live with us; he lived separately because

he brought his nife.

and this one - Capt-lt InLIStial - also brought his wile with hin.

DEUCIENKO vas a bachelor, and lived at the lase, ag I did; then, there

was a licutenant, a dark. follow - he loo:ed liie a typsy -I lo not

renaaber his nane; we lived in the sanc root - DICtaNO, t: lieutenant

and I.

I ronenber no other nanos.

A. Did you live alone, or with soreone.

B. No, there vere several of us living in a roon right there at the base.

A. With whon vere you living.

B. DEUCHENKO ins in the same roon; then, this llcutenant....

A. Vell, did you live with then in the sanc roch

B. In the same roon.

A. DEUCHANKO and so cise.

B. The lieuterant, also; I do not remenber his name.

A. Tell, then, it is as if to say you had no special friends.

B. I did not have any, because it ras for a short time.

A. Tell, did not they give the son of a Minister a separate room:

B. There were none; there tas no possibility.

We lived right there where our nork room tas... It looked Ilke it was

an attic..: you could say it was the third floor; the building was a

Mansard-type.

- SEGMI

---

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.. Let us inuin with that so man you cane there, tol lopoted that you

had arrive; what kind of rost vere you assigned.

5. Senior translator-interpreter o. the lavy Intelligence Point.

À. You cane to the iMP; were was it -- sovets: or prinors:

P. Sovets':, Sovots:; it in Soretsi:.

A. You should thin': of sonething else, because there is no Sorets!:.

3. Ncll, I cannot tell you the nane, but I rcuenber it ras Sovcts, rigat

there at the cad of the spit.

A. There is no Sorctsk: at the end of the spit.

No Sorcts: is witten noar Daltlys:, or anythere elss there.

The old name could not be Sovetsk; and as its new nane, it was never

called that.

B. The new name vas Sovetsl:.

1. I understand that it could ie Sovets! only under the new name - because

it could not have been Sovetsl: under the Germans.

But now I an faced with a dilemna, and there is a great question - let

us say that you cane to this place, that you vere assigned as a senior

intelligence officer...

B. A senior translator-interpreter.

A.

..Translator-interpreter at the M.P in the city of

Sovets's, several

kiloneters fron Baltiysk.

But on the spii, there is no Sovetsk.

B. At the beginning of the spit, there was sone kind of Soretsk.

A. There was no such place.

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## Page 66

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•

B. Hell, I do not now.

It is such a small place, that pernags it is not on tao map, not on tils

nap; this nap....

A. Of course, I do not cant to acclara, or I do not inni to say, tat se

have a map nith all of tho points, especially of this place; you

understand

Tacre is no such place there; tacre is nothing else thore.

B. I cannot tell you anythin; more: I absolutely cannot toll you anythin

nore.

I tell you - it is there, at the very beginning oi the spit, a suall,

snall settlonent called sorets':; that is what is stuc: in my nenory -

Sovets':: what can I do

•I do not know vhy "Sorets!:"; I do not know.

A. l'ell, I have to know exactly - wat vas the address written on the

lettors you reccived

B. Well, naybe I am not tolling you the truth; perhaps I am in error here -

but I toll you again that I reuenher "Sovcts:", and - for sole rcason -

"Prinors.iy Kray".

Why

I have in mind this pace right it the beginning of the spit, or

"Sovits!: By the Sea".

I do not Inow, I do not knot.

Sovets'i, there, Sovets!:.

A. How vas it written -- "City of Sovetsk, Primorskly Kray" - and what

else was written.

B. I do not reneuber exactly.

I told you, but you insist on putting the dot over the 1's; I cannot

insist.

A. Neil, you see... It should be "lilitary Unit" or sonething.

DEARE

10 qun .

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- C0 -

B. Milltary Unit buater so-ind-so.

A. "Hilitary Unit nunber sonina-co", then, prohably the mail went through

the military siola rost oifice.

B. Well, because ((it vas a)) nilitary unit.

A. I suspoet that it could not have boon addressed to tire the city, the

street nusher, otc....

D. lio stroot, notalau; no, 3o, no.

1. If, lot us say, there vere other circustances....

If you rare an intelligence officer under civilian cover there, you

could have received sail at a civilian address.

Sut, 1f ((you mere)) at the In?, I do not thin: ((the nail)) rould

sho "City of sovets:, such-and-such a tray".

Prohally there mis only "adlitery tnit..." and noting siss.

E. I do not know way this is "Sovats'." in ay monory; I do not taow.

A. Vell, that vers jour duties!

You arrived there as a senior translator-interpreter of tic liP.

Inagine that it mas located sonerhere on the spit, and you vere there.

That sas your job

B. The point was set up just before I got there, before my arrival...

lIterally.

Before this, they were in Gernany.

so.

B. I arrived, and the work here was purely of such... for everyone, officer

and all the soldiers...

the work tas... simply outfitting the living

quarters...

Here and... that

the soldiers' ness-hall... the officers' mess...

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## Page 68

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• everything trien tounthor....

He were concerned wit purcly housercoping problens.

2. How nuch tine did this taxe

B. I do not inow: I cannot answar outricht: I do not tinow.

From the beginnint, the point ms faced with the usual probles.

In German, tho pornit ras concorded with agent work; that is, they and

agents on comercial ships e they mu Soriat agents and also scents

1ro1 anon; the forcioners.

Eut hers, there ras absolutely no agent vora; it tas a new nission.

The point, Intalligence of the fourth dary fleet, and probably the GRU

was changed with the creation, the preparation... rather, you could

say... the orcoaration of iPs - Agent((-nanned)) Osservation Posts

(Agenturno-tablyudatel'ny eposty) against the event of var.

What vas it, and how was it organized.

I persoaally did not do this lind of vor:, lecause I never had done

that kind of rork; I had had no experience.

Furthernore, I had had no experience with agents.

I 8111 toll you now, briefly, mat it is and that I did.

Mell, the orficers - ILLNEL, YELISEVEN, and the others....

A. Tell me only what you did; do not tall me that the other officers vere

doing.

Tell only about your self, because te do not rant to lose tine talling

about other persons.

B. But it was connected with that I did.

A. Nell, if it is connected with you, that is alright.

B. They selected people, fron among the NCOs, the officers, sailors,

specialists, radiomen; then they organized groups of two and three men;

they checked the nen who were ready to be discharged within six months

fron the Navy.

- SEGRE

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E.=..

e. Alriant: lot then seleet the people: let us retun to yur sor:.

B. ((derously:)) "j lasts merc, my tasis were: I hold lecturcs about

the forcion policy of the Sorict State... about the fundamentals of

Marzis.....

Besides that, wen the mail mas delivered to the military unit... then,

the littors wors delivored to our point....

I vis, so to soj, an aininistrative officer: I and such additional

functions - I brought the lotters over, and asied wint was needed --

razors, shaving crean, etc.

So, so, so, so, so... I nean, supply.... because they vere housed in

what you nichi call safehouses.

A. And there vere these apartrents located

B. There tere a couple in Soretsk; there were... on the approach to

Baltiys::, in Saltiys:, in several places.

A. How mere the nen mon you supported dressed.

You brought then their letters, their personal eifects, such as socks,

smoler's supplies...

B. They more dressed in civilian clothes; and they did not go anywere

they lived there for two ur tiree sonths at a tine vithout leaving.

... ....

A. And what vere they doing there.

B. The officers -- let us say, BULAKH -- ah... trained them in explosives.

YELISEYEY taught them how to collect intelligence data.

That lieutenant wao was with me - the tall, dark fellow who lived.

with ne - taught radio.

These were short 2-3 month courses.

A, That else did you do while you vere there.

B. Nothing else.

-SECRET

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". Practichlly to say moto nee asstened a sentor translator-interareter,

but you did not tori: with translations.

24-34

I. No, no, no: there ins no such translation wor!: there.

A. And did thry assin you as sentor translator-interpreter, of anglisi.

D. I only have Inglisi.

—...

A. Well, tao trous.

maybe you know another one.

B. Russian.

A. Anything else.

B. No other language; I understand a little bit in Urainian.

A. Do you linow ho: they say, "Prolotariat of all countries, crite:", in

Utrainian.

в. йо.

A. "Ragamuffins of the world, pile up!"

Wacre did you learn Utrainian.

B. I was born in the Ukraine.

A.. Who in your fanily speaks Urainian:

B. My father knew Utrainian, and uy nother knew it; they forgot It.

Of course, they understood it very well.

A. Did you hear of the Ukrainian, TIRIOPZDENKO:

B. ((Laughs)) No, I never heard such a ((name)). •

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## Page 71

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3. I have heard "GOLOFUNNNO .

A. Listen, mat is tic natter

Let us stop our tal: for a mosent.

Of course, lt is possible thai - for sure reason -- you-rent to the

Baltic... hit it is sapossible to belier, that a man, a ailitary

intelligenes point, did not do any intelligence vor, did nothior.

B. Only this vor:, only this vor!:.

A. That - to hold lecturos on foreiin policy or laris-Icninisa - this

jas not ((i.c., could not have bech)) your tas!:.

B. This is the vor: they gave me; that is may I ras disenchanted with the

worl:.

that could I do there.

• A. In the first instance, you seen to have been a political torer, but

when you say you delivered letters it looks as if you were Assistant

Chief of the Intelligence Point for Supply.

B....iot the point, not the point - for those peoble that were being

trained.

A. Someone tas Issponsible for then.

B. Hell, the whole point was responsible for then.

For each group, there was a plan: what kind of loctures to give and

how many hours, including mine - in foreign policy and Marxisa.

Besides that, there mere aids (posobije)... just a ninute... there sere

aids... these were supplied by the GRU; they were printed — not on a

press, but typed.

For example - "The Agent Situation in Norway, Dennark, Sweden"; but

It was not the agent network that they had in mind — it mas the citles,

- SECRET

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.

the description of the cittes, mat thore is in thr sities, hat

sights there are there, the streets, stores, etc., bacause cach srouy..

sash group mas trained there precisely for dispatca to Denmark, Sreden,

Norway, in case of var.

A. Of course, the conclusion can be inde that those sroups vere very

important and that the ia? uns very important, inesnuch as they wore

preparing agonts.

B. Please understand ne - it is just a big title.

A. To dispatci...

D. I will explain to you right nor; hear no out.

May I have a cigarette.

A. Yes.

B. L00: 10w it r00s -- thess officers, the officers to vere instructing...

they said that, as work, this was a joe.

This ras absolutely new fork; they had never done such works hefore.

As vort, it sas a jolie.

tray

They trained these folloss for two oi three nonths - they do not

know anyone else -- only these tarce.

One was the chief of the group; one was the radionan; and the other

was the explosives man.

After tro or three

nonths they returned to their nilitary units.

The conmander does not know where they were.

The inpression is given that they have been on a trip, and the

commander does not know where they have been for tro or three months.

Then, they return and cosplete their service in two or three nonths.

And thus they already have been trained; then they are demobilized -

this is their regular service.

They are denobilized, and they leave for hone.

Their training is a big secret.

SECRET

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## Page 73

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.

And what happened

In case di var, ao; aro coitlined to the lost wilitary comissarint:

for enablo, in sue city di Divan, tacy too: Sit SOCIOPULO m 9e lad

loon trained, and thry sond was in sone military unit.

For, son and where sun they died ai

This is a jose.

a. I casini dont coote not more on the rolls cocerhese.

3. No; ne worse, on tao 20115 or the CoG; when they are trained, they

are on the rolls o? the ciu.

Dut, actually, they do un clad ala de thoa.

A. Let us so lack: & littlo.

BULlal taunt caplosives; the licutonant....

B. Docause ile inor taai...

¿. ...Radlo core:, oto., and jou....

B. I do not inow cuplosives; I to not inow radio core.

ilor: to collect intolligence dnta in that region, I also do not now.

That is vay thay save no such ror:.

Could it he satistying

of course not, absolutely not.

When I forked in the far Ist, at least I felt it ras intelligence

work.

Infornation collection - there vas intelligence vorl, but it vas far

from that ((1n the Baltic)).

I told you why I went on leave.

I was not entitled to it in January; it was too soon.

But I spoke with GOLOYKO, and I told hin, "Arseniy Hisolayevich, this

work does not satisiy ne at all.

A. Are you sure that during that tine about wich you are talking, GOLOVKO

_SECRET

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## Page 74

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• .

ins there

I. II not, only an sure; sut 1 coy ali to the sovander-ia-ahiol of the

Fourth lavy Sloot.

-+--

i, maon you visited big, are you sure in ves tacre, at that tize.

B.

I sat hir at saltire:.

A. I ast: you serin....

B. Absolutcly: I saw his a he care the orders, and that is thy they let

ise 5o on loare.

A. Ve will return to COLOriO.

((NG; 1 and D spca:: at the sage tire))

Dead.

B. He died wile Chief of Staff of the Navy of the Minietry of Deiense.

A. Fro: what you told be yesterday and day before about your ionsonol

work, about the fourth lavy fleet, and that you told me about your

duties there, with zaps, ote., my only conclusion is that I cannot

believe your story.

I would like you to think about it and tell a more plausible story....

B. It is not a story; this is how it mas.

...About were you vere at that time,

because there is no proof that

you were there and forked there.

I do not exclude the possibility that you were there under other

circunstances, but I an sure that you did not work there at the time

ahout which we are talking.

-. ....

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## Page 75

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B.

I mas not tires ni ani time ocher man until Desencer 1322.

...

A.

You jourself understand that you must sive a nore ascurate picture.

Do you remenber -- that in Agril 1004, men they talied to you here,

you said that jou had boch there longer - and that you told a different

story about your marriare and now you cane iron there to coscow

How, of courso, ((it is)) a difforont story ((jou are tollin;)), and

it is difficult to na'e à conclusion alout more the truth lies -

wether you vere there four nonths, oi si, or nine, or....

B.

But I could not have been theio... I arrivod... I arrived in the.

beginning of... on leave fron Sovotskaya Gavan'.

A. Well, you, of course, remember thai at one tine you said tat you

arrived fros Sovetskaya Gavan' at the beginning of the year, and then

you said in the spring; I want to tal' about this, also.

B. Vell, I am telling you -- in the beginning of the sumer; I now

cactly, I arrived just biore the lay holidays; I was hurrying because

of May ((First of May)) .

A. This was tic last version of your story; in the beginning, you told a

different story.

3. First of way 1032, my lather reached filty years of age, and I vanted...

1 P.M.*

A. You told the dostor the last time how you arrived, but before this

you told a sonathat different story.

If it is necessary, I can read to you that you said; anyway, this is

what I want to set at -- if you really were there ((in the Baltic)),

then you have to tell me nore than that you have.

B. I did not do anything else there.

And I was not there more ((at any other time)).

A. You can see yourself that what you did was not intelligence fork.

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## Page 76

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.

B.

Jut it ira:

But I so not lnor....

This is may I loft thore, and vay I did not vant to e tiers.

One cannot bolieve this a a man ins there, but does aot now the name

of the Chios or the Deputy ((Cales)) and can only cive the naues of

tro peoplo....

P. moro vas no Dubuty at the point; there vas & Chief, lut I do not

renenher his nans, I do not remember ain.

The man was in the Saltic Fleet, but does not even reneiver the nanc

of the norspaper published there, dons not know the addross, does not

Inow the field post officc....

B. I do not renember the lidd post oifice.

1. ...Does not now the konsonol orcanization....

B. licll... the liorsonol organivation....

1. You, of couse, understand what I an taling about; that story thich

you have triod several tines to - so to spent: -- sell, one cannot

in any tay buy; I not you to understand this, is friend to friend,

because this is very serious.

B.

fould I really suck it out of my thwband nake up stories for you:

A.. I do not vant you to naie up stories - this is exactly what I do not

want.

B.

Well, just as I say — way should I; tay do I have to'

A. All the same, as they say, even thoigh you say, "Why should I suck it

out of uy thunb.", you still do It sonetimes, and sometimes you are

not so bad at it — I give you a

• few "credits" for that!

*AR

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## Page 77

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B:

But I cio not rant you to continue to do so in the muture.

You as: do I answer as I renomber.

I did not do anything nore there - only this abcolutcly futtle sort.

A. I au tryin: viti leading questions, to reminù you if you have forotten:

but nothing cones of it.

B. You vant... I do not tnow....

But I cannot tell you anythin, nore, if i do not caonhar and I do not

know.

1. I thin': no will linich on this ((point)) today; I ope that se vill

acet again -- and not only oncc;

each tine le stop, I as: you or warn

you that I thin; that the tize has cone for you

to

tell soaething

different so lie can believe you....

((End of Roel #5))

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