TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO
Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
From: NOSENKO, YURI
Document date: 20/6/78 00:00
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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180-10131-10324

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/19/20

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10131-10324

RECORD SERIES :

SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

014724

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE:

HSCA

NOSENKO, YURI

TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS:

06/20/1978

141

CIA, METHODOLOGY

KGB, FILES

KGB, METHODOLOGY

MCMILLAN, PRISCILLA JOHNSON

SOLIE, BRUCE

NOSENKO, YURI, TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE

OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD

OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD, DEFECTION TO RUSSIA

MEXICO CITY

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret

RESTRICTIONS: Consulted

CURRENT STATUS : Withhold

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 08/21/1993

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

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TESTIMONY OF:

YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO - Resumed

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EXECUTIVE SESSION

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Tuesday: June: 20, 197876

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U.S. House of Representatives,

Select

Committee on Assassinations

Subcommittee on the Assassination

of John F. Kennedy

Washington, D. C.

The Committee met, pursuant to recess, at 6:20 o'clock

p.m., in Room. 1-D, Headquarters, Central Intelligence Agency,

Langley, Virginia, the Honorable Louis Stokes (Chairman of

the Committee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Stokes, Preyer, Burke, Fithian,

Devine and Sawyer.

Also present: G. R. Blakey, G. Cornwell, M. Goldsmith,

R.

Morrison, E. Berning, M. Jackson, J. Smith, K. Klein and

is. Brady.

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The Chairman. The Committee will come to order.

At this time the Committee will resume its sitting.. We

jare still in executive session by virtue of the resolution

adopted by the Committee this past evening.

At this time the Chair will recognize Mr. Blakey.

Mr. Blakey. Off the record.

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(Discussion off the record.)

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The: Chairman. Anything further?

Bring the witness in.

Let the record reflect that the Committee has resumed its

sitting and at this time the witness, Yuri Nosenko, is back

before the Committee once again.

• Mr. Nosenko, I admonish you that you are still under the

oath that you took last night.

TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO - Resumed

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. And at this time, then, the Committee will

recognize the counsel for the Committee, Mr. Klein.

Mr. Klein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good evening.

Mr. Nosenko. Good evening, sir.

Mr. Klein. You told us that after the assassination

you had an opportunity to be present when Oswald's file was

brought from Minsk, is that right?

Mr. Nosenko. Absolutely right.

Mr. Klein. Did you have an opportunity to read the entire

file at that time?

Mr. Nosenko. No,

sir.

Mr. Klein. How much of the file did you read?

Mr. Nosenko. It was simply looking, page by page, first

part of the first volume.

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Mr. Klein. You went through the first part of the first

volume, page by page?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. Did you

go through any of the other volumes?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.

Mr. Klein. You told us that an officer named Matveev

took the file away to prepare a summary?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. Do you know who wrote that summary?

Mr. Nosenko. The summary was written by the First

Department of the Second Chief Directorate.

Mr. Klein. Do you know who, in particular?

Mir. Nosenko. No, sir, I do not know.

Mr. Klein. And did you ever have an opportunity to read

the

summary that the First Department prepared?

MI. Nosenko. No, sir; I didn't see it.

Mr. Klein. The Russian word "spravka", does that mean

Mr. Nosenko. Is summary, right.

Mr. Klein. And why were you not able to read the summary

that they wrote?

Mr. Nosenko. Well, the file was taken in the First

Department. I was working in the Seventh Department.

Mr. Klein. Did you make any attempt to read it?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Klein. Was it at all unusual that with all your

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involvement in the case you did not have an opportunity to

read that file?

Mr. Nosenko. It was the decision of the Chief of the

Second Chief Directorate, given big importance to this questign,

that a resume will be prepared by the most prestigious depart-

ment, American Department, and that is why we couldn't even ask.

Mr. Klein. You didn't even ask to see it?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Klein. So it was not unusual that you were not

allowed to see it?

Mx. Nosenko. No, it was not unusual.

Mr. Klein. You have testified before this Committee that

the KGB did not allow Lee Harvey Oswald to defect because he

was uninteresting. You have testified the KGB did not even speak

to Lee Harvey Oswald because he was uninteresting; and that you

decided he was not interesting without speaking to him.

Do you know what year Lee Harvey Oswald came to the Soviet

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Union?

MI. Nosenko. . 1959.

Mr. Klein. In 1959, approximately how many Americans

wanted to defect to the Soviet Union or requested permission to

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Mr. Nosenko. There was a defectionist, I remember, one

lof the employees, one of the workers, who was helping to of-

ganize the American Exhibition in Moscow, Mr. Webster.

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Mr. Klein. Without giving particular names, how many

Americans would you say asked permission to defect in 1959?

What would the number be?

Mr. Nosenko. These two were known to me -- Oswald and

Webster.

Mr. Klein. From 1955 to 1960, what would be your best

estimate as to how many Americans asked permission to defect

to the Soviet Union?

Mr.

Nosenko.

As far as I heard, there I think was one

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only.

Mr. Klein.

Mr. Nosenko.

One other, meaning three altogether.

One besides Oswald and Webster, what. I

know.

Mr. Klein. Three?

Mr • Nösenko. I hree:

Mr. Klein." Of the three, was Oswald the only one turned

down because he was uninteresting?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. Do you know any other defector who was ever

turned down because he was uninteresting?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Allow me. to tell, as you have seen, and you told yourselves,

how many Americans are defected. It is a

very rare occasion and

KGB prefers defection when they are planning, they want, these

types of defectors, they like and invite those people who can

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give them certain information which is valuable.

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Mr. Klein. Do you recall telling this Committee yesterday

that up until 1960 the Seventh Department was recruiting

left and right?

Mr. Nosenko. Absolutely right.

MI. Klein. And that you recruited a woman in Utah who was --

Mr: Nosenko. I simply had given example of this recruit-

ment which took place up to 1960. When Seventh Department was

recruitng and giving files to the Intelligence Service, First!

Chief Directorate, not asking them before, is it person will

be för. them valuable or not.

Mr. Klein. And that KGB officers were getting bonus

and promotions when they induced people to recruit?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. And despite that, Lee Harvey Oswald, when

he asked to defect, you turned him down without even speaking to

him, to find out if he had any information; is that right?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, we had quite a few recruitments in 159,.

very big amount of them in '59

very interesting, much,

much more interesting - professors

and teachers - and

even was a: CO-Op: from CIA: we had quite a few recruitments,

and Oswald was nothing on this base, on this foundation.

Mr.

Klein. Would the KGB have any interest in an

American student?

Mr. Nosenko. As I told you yesterday, KGB interested in

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students, bat particularly those students who are studying

the Russian language, Russian history, Russian economy.

Mr. Klein. And would they have any interest in an

American who had strong anti-American views and who was a

professed Marxist? Would they have any interest in that

kind of person?

Mr. Nosenko. Here were are coming to a very interesting

and sensitive question. From mid-1950, by the order of

Central Committee Communist Party, Soviet Union, KGB was

prohibited to make any approachment and recruitment of

members of the Communist Party of the West.

Mr. Klein. I am not asking about a member of the

Communist Party.

Mr. Nosenko. Your question is, and if he is some type

of Marxist here, the question maybe

he is possibly a member

of Communist Party, and to check it for KGB very difficult

if he is a member of Communist Party or not of his country.

Mr. Klein. Would they ask him if he is a member of

the Communist Party?

Would they check it?

Mr. Nosenko. No, they would not ask him.

Mr. Klein. They wouldn't ask him?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Klein.

Would the Soviet Union be interested in

someone who was in the military and worked with radar equipment?

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It depends.

If he was corporal, private,

If he was officer, maybe they would be.

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Mr. Nosenko.

is no big interest.

interested.

Mr. Klein. The

fact that he worked with the equipment

wouldn't be enough; they would want to know what his rank was?

Mr. Nosenko. No,

sir; it is not enough because they

had sources.

Mr. Klein. And in 1959 would the Soviet Union have been

interested in someone who served as a radar operator on an air

base where U-2s took off and landed?

Mr. Nosenko: • Yes, sir; it would be very interested.

Mr. Klein. It is your testimony that Lee Harvey Oswald,

who was a student, who

was a professed Marxist, who had

Mr. Nosenio. Students? I never heard that he was a

student.

Mr. Klein. -- who had been a radar operator and had

worked on a base from which U-? airplanes took off and

landed, that he wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB

to speak to him, to find out if he knew any of this information?

Mr. Nosenko.? Mr-kleins I understand your position;

but:wedidn't know thatcheshadoany connection with U-2on

flightsen: That is one thing.

And if you, Mr. Klein, are basing on what was written by

Mr. Epstein in the book, it is a little bit from the air

taken ideas. Mr. Epstein even telling that how important

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for KGB to know about such base -- that base. We knew it

in '50's when I worked in GRU at the Navy, in 1950,. "51, '52.

We knew every base and in Japan, at this Atsugi Base, and

We

knew what kind of airplanes had been. We didn't know about

U-2, no. Sure, it is very interesting, but when Oswald

applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union, we didn't know

word about his knowledge, anything concerning U-2 flights.

Mr. Klein. And you didn't ask him if he had any kind of

information about that when he wanted to defect, is that

correct?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Klein. And you told us that one reason that no one

was working on Oswald was because all of your people were

concentrating on the American Exhibition in 1959, is that

correct?

Mr. Nosenko. : Yes, sir. Not only American Exhibition,

there were other tourists and among them were interesting

targets, very interesting targets.

Mr. Klein. You told us yesterday that things didn't --

Mr. Nosenko. I can explain you why, because an American

Exhibition in Moscow was by the information which KGB had,

I don't know how much it's right, how much it's wrong, but it

was

suspected quite a number of people from American intelli

gence community who were working on American Exhibition in

Moscow, and when the work is

going on against such targets,

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it is not one officer, it is a big amount of people involved

on each case, because it is very serious target.

Mr. Klein. Do you know what date Lee Harvey Oswald

came to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Klein.

Mr. Chairman, I would ask that this

document be marked for identification and shown to the witness.

The Chairman. Without objection.

(The document referred to was

marked as

JFK Exhibit No. F-2

for identification.)

Mr. Klein. Looking at this document --

Mx. Nosenko. Right.

The Chairman. Did counsel want to identify for the

record how the document has been marked?

The Clerk. JFK-F-2.

Mr. Klein. Looking at this document, does it say on the

top "Visa and Registration Office, Interior Department,

Executive. Committee of the Moscow City Council"?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.:

Mr. Klein. Do you recognize that type of document?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes. It is from Department of giving visa's

and Registrations, which is working under auspices of Directorate

of Internal Affairs of Moswcow. City.?

Mr. Klein. And does this appear to be an authentic

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document, an authentic copy of the document?

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Mr. Nosenko. Sure.

Mr. Klein. Looking at Number 8, does it say what

date Lee Harvey Oswald came to the Soviet Union for the first

time?

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Mr. Nosenko. October, 1959.

Mr. Klein.. October what?

Mr. Nosenko. October 16, 1959.

Mr. Klein. I would ask that this document be marked for

identification, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Without objection.

Would the clerk indicate for the record?

The Clerk. JFK-F-3, Mr. Chairman.

(The document referred to was

marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-3

for identification.)

Mr. Klein. Looking at the newspaper article clipping, on

the right hand side, with the heading "U.S. Fair in Soviet

Jammed at Close," do you see that?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir:

Mr. Klein. And what is the date of that story?

Mr. Nosenko. The date is September 4.

Mr. Klein. Are you aware of the fact that the American

Exhibition ended on September 4, more than a month before

Oswald came to the Soviet Union?

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Mr. Klein, I would like you to ask when

Americans who were

working for this Exhibition left Moscow.

Mr. Klein. I will ask you another question.

Yesterday, when I asked you if things got back to

normal once the fair ended, did you say yes?

Mr. Nosenko. No, till they were leave the Soviet

Union. No. They are the same targets. Okay, you are right,

it is closed September

4th, but does it change the importance

of these people against whom KGB was working? They were

still in Moscow.

Mr. Klein. Do you recall yesterday my asking you, did

things in your department

get back to normalor once the fair

ended, and do you recall saying yes?

MI. Nosenko. Well, I meaning fair ended when left all

the people involved in work on American Exhibition, Americans

when they left, and they were staying quite a long time

after it was closed. It was closed for visits for Soviet

citizens, but it took quite a time for them to leave.

Mr. Klein. You also testified yesterday that Lee Harvey

Oswald was allowed to stay in the Soviet Union after he said

that he was going to kill himself if they sent him home.

You told us that he slashed his wrists and two psychiatrists

examined him and both found him mentally unstable.

Mr. Nosenko.

Right.

Mr. Klein. What was the point of having the two

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psychiatrists examine him?

Mr. Nosenko. I think! simply to be assured that it was

right found decision, concerning this person.

Two independent.

Mr. Klein. After they examined him, the decision was

made to let him stay; is that correct?

Mr. Nosenko. It is not because of the examination

he was allowed to stay, Mr. Klein. You are a little bit mixing

things. He was allowed to stay because KGB and Soviet Govern

ment had come to the conclusion if this person will kill

himself it will bereaction in newspapers, which can in any way

hurt the starting, the warming of Soviet-American relations.

Mr. Klein. The Soviets were worried he would kill himself

in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Nosenko. Right, if they would not allow him to

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stay.

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Mr. Klein. Could the KGB have taken him and put him on

the next plane out of Russia and thereby ended their whole

problem with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Nosenko:, It is a very sensitive question. He can

jump out of car.. If he decided, if he is mentally unstable,

you don't know what he will do.

Mr::

Klein. Do you think the KGB didn't do that because

they were worried he might jump out of the car or do something

like that?

Mr. Nosenko. Simply a mentally unstable person, they

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didn't want to go it on any such action.

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Mr. Klein. They would rather keep him in the Soviet

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Union?

Mr. Nosenko. No;

they would rather prefer they washed

their hands, Mr. Klein; they are not making decision, KGB.

In, Soviet Union decisions are made by the Central Committee

of the Communist Party,

and General Secretary and Politburo,

not by 'KGB. KGB a servant of the Politburo and Central Commit-

tee Communist Party.

. Mr. Klein.. Going by the facts as you have told them

to this Committee --

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein..

-- why wasn't he put on a plane and sent

back to America?

Mr. Nosenko. KGB washed their hands. Then from Intourist

it was

given information Ministry of Foreign Trade; Ministry

of Foreign Trade reported to the Soviet Government. As I saia,

I

assumed the Chairman was surely asked; he told his opinion

of the KGB, and up to the Soviet Government how they would

decide.

Mr. Klein. Could he have been brought to the U.s.

Embassy and told them he

is an American, "You take care of

him; we don't want him"?

Mr. Nosenko. It can be done, sure. It can be done, but

it wasn't done.

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Mr. Klein. Instead they elected to allow him to stay

indefinitely in the Soviet Union and they have to worry about

him every single day, what an unstable American would do, is

that correct?

Mr.

Nosenko. They didn't allow, KGB didn't allow. Soviet

government allowed.

Mr. Klein. The facts as you have testified to them are

that the KGB allowed this mentally unstable person to stay

in Russia, and they sent him to Minsk to live and work in a

radio factory. Then the KGB allowed this mentally unstable

individual to marry a Soviet woman, and then this mentally

unstable individual was allowed to join a hunting club where

he had

access to a gun.

Can you think of any other cases in all the time you

worked in the KGB where a mentally unstable person was

treated in thiskind of manner?

Mr. Nosenko. I told you I do

not know any other cases

of mentally unstable, excluding one code clerk, American, was

also mentally ill; he was delivered in Soviet Union. I heard

it. I never have worked with him, I never have seen him.

And the thing is, I am sorry, but you are putting and stressing

number of questioning, and it sounds so peculiar. What does

it mean, KGB allow him to marry?

Mr. Klein, in the Soviet Union there is by degree of

Presidium of Supreme Soviet U.S.S.R. a law allowing marriage of

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Soviet citizens with foreign. A foreigner can marry a Soviet

citizen, by the law. There is not a thing that KGB can in any

way try not to give, not to make it possible, but this is in

cases when the person who is marrying a foreigner worked in

some sensitive place, let's say, in missiles, rocket

industry production, was in process of any place of his work-

ing seeing classified material. In these

cases, KGB will try

to put different type of fences. But it is unlawful: In

accordance with Soviet law, marriage is allowed; he doesn't

need

to ask permission of Soviet Government or anyone. And his

wife, Marina, wasn't working in any place which was sensitive

from the point of view of Soviet security.

Mentally unstable it doesn't mean that he is raving

mad; it is mentally unstable.

Mr. Klein. You testified that

not only was Oswald not

spoken to when he first said he wanted to defect but even after

the decision was made to allow him to remain in the soviet

Union, still nobody from the KGB spoke to him, is that correct?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. You also tetified to the extensive resources

that were devoted to put physical and technical surveillance

on Oswald. You told us the men involved, the time involved,

the facilities involved?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. Do you find great contradiction -

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Mr. Nosenko. • No, sir.

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Mr. Klein. -- in the fact that, on the one hand, you

put all these resources into following Oswald around, trying

see who he talked to and what he does and, on the other hand,

you don't even have a person go and talk to him and ask him,

"Tell us your background; tell us about yourself."

Is there any contradiction?

Mr. Nosenko. Even in the United States, yes, sure, for

you, for me just now American citizens, yes, sure, but there,

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Mr. Klein. They don't talk to people there?

Mr. Nosenko. They can talk and cannot to talk, but I

don't see contradiction there. Anyone, any foreigner who will

be staying, even if this defector not on his own, but, let's

say, KGB pushed him to stay, to defect, he still will be watched

and on him will be put this same type of work that was

put on Oswald, not less.

Mr. Klein. You talk about their society is different than

ours. Is it unusual that they allow an American to defect

and live there without

ever questioning him, to ask him if he

is an intelligence agent?

Mr. Nosenko. On the contrary, no doubt, let's say he®

was intelligence agent, what he will tell them that he was.

sent with mission as intelligence agent? Why to scare him?

Let him live how he wants. We will be watching him. He

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will show by his behavior, by his action.

Mr. Klein. They purposely don't speak to him; is that

your testimony?

Mr. Nosenko. In this case they didn't speak with him

because he didn't present interest for the KGB and because

he was mentally unstable.

•Mr. Klein.: You. testified that you read the reports of

two psychiatrists who examined Lee Harvey Oswald at the

hospital after he cut his wrist, is that correct?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. You said both found him mentally unstable?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. You told us in geat detail how this

decision was made to have these psychiatrists examine him.

I would ask that this document be marked for

identification.

The Chairman. The clerk will identify for the record

the number appearing on the document.

The Clerk.

It will be JFK-F-4.

(The document referred to was

marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-4

for identification. )

Mr. Klein. Have you ever seen that document before?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. I haven't seen it.

Mr. Klein. Were you aware that the Soviet Government

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provided certain documents to the Warren Commission in 1964?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. I wasn't aware of this.

Mr. Klein. Looking at that document in front of you -

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. -- is that a hospital record?

Mr. Nosenko. Oh, yes, sure. It is a hospital record.

Mr. Klein.. And whose hospital record? Does it have a

name on it?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.. It is from Botkin Hospital.

Mr. Klein. Whose name is it?

Mr. Nosenko. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Klein. Does it say what date he was admitted?

Mr. Nosenko. Discharged, admitted 23rd, discharged

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28th.

Mr. Klein. What year is that?

Mr. Nosenko. October of 1959.

Mr. Klein. And does it have on the bottom the diagnosis

why he was in the hospital?

Mr. Nosenko. Incised wound of one-third of the left

forearm.

Mr. Klein. And that date, October of 1959, is that when

Oswald first came to the Soviet Union and cut his wrist?

Mr. Nosenko. I cannot tell you dates, sir. I do not

remember.

Mr. Klein. You have in front of you the other document

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which told -- Number 8 -- what date he came to the Soviet Union.

Is that still there?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.

This is admittance to the hos-

pital and dischargement.

Mr. Klein. . Number 8?

Mr. Nosenko. Arrival, October 16.

Mr. Klein. And the date on the hospital admittance is

what date?

Mr. Nosenko.

Twenty-third of October.

Mr. Klein. And would you turn to the hospital admittance

form, the one I just

gave you, to the third page, please?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Klein. And do you, see where it says "History of

Present Illness"?

Mr. Nosenko. No, I don't see.

Mr. Klein. On the third page?

Mr. Nosenko. I have the third page.

Mr. Klein.

It has Number 6 on the top of the page, but

it's the third page on the document.

Mr. Nosenko. Oh, Number 6, History of Present Illness.

Yes. . Just a second.

Mr. Klein. Would you glance through that and would you

tell us if this is the hospital report from when Lee Harvey

Oswald cut his wrist and was taken to Botkin Hospital?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

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Mr. Klein.: Now, would you turn to the next to the last

page. It has a 13 on the right hand side.

Do you see that page?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. The next to the last page.

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. And do you see where it says, two-thirds

of the way to the bottom, "Psychiatric Department" underlined?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.:

Mr. Klein. Would you read what is said under that?

Mr. Nosenko.

"His mind is clear; perception is correct;

no hallucination or deliriums. He answers the questions

legible and logically; he has a firm desire to remain in the

Soviet Union; no psychiatric symptoms were noted; the patient

is not dangerous for other people; his condition permits him

to stay in Psychiatric Department by an order of the Assistant

to the Chief PHysicians, Dr. Kornika. The patient is

transferred to the Seventh Ward."

Mr. Klein. Is there anything in there to indicate he is

mentally unstable?

Mr. Nosenko. Here I do not see.

Mr. Klein. Does that report indicate that he was normai?

Mr. Nosenko. Here I do not see what I have seen. But

this you receive from the Soviet Government, and if you think

you received the true things, what was in file, you are wrong,

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Mr. Klein.

Mr. Klein. And that document, according to you, is that

not an authentic .copy?

Mr. Nosenko. KGB can prepare you any document. Take

the material, or ask the doctors who are cooperating with KGB

and they will prepare you any document.

Mr. Klein.. I -am not asking you what they can do. Are

you testifying that this document is not authentic, it is not

the documen't?

Mr. Nosenko.

This document never was in the file of the

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Mr. Klein.

Mr. Nosenko. This I testify.

Mr. Klein..

-- it is your tetimony that the KGB sent

US

a phony document?

Mr. Nosenko.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. You testified before this Committee that there

was periodiciphysical surveillance of Lee Harvey Oswald which

was ordered by Moscow, to be carried out in Minsk?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. And you testified in detail about that,

and you told us how the physical surveillance consisted of

following Oswald for a month or month and a half at a time,

and there were a number of people that would be involved, is

that correct?

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Mr. Nosenko. Right.

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Mr. Klein. It was a big operation?

Mr. Nosenko.

Big operation? No, it's not a big

operation.

Mr. Klein. There

were. a number of people involved, werer't

there?

Mr. Nosenko. It is not a big operation. It is routine.

In KGB it is a routine, nothing serious. It's not an

operation even.. It's surveillance, it's not an operation.

Mr. Klein.. And have you ever stated that the only covert

age of Oswald during his stay in Minsk consisted of periodic

checks at his place of employment, inquiry of neighbors and.

associates and review of his mail?. Have you ever stated

that was the only coverage of Oswald in Minsk?

Mr. Nosenko. I stated

before, and I stated it to you

yesterday, and I state now, that the order was given, and I

have seen it - to cover him by surveillance periodical, to

cover him by an agent watching in places of his living, places

he is working, control over his correspondence and control of

his telephone conversations.

Mr. Klein. My question is, have you ever stated that the

only coverage was checking at his places of employment and

his neighbors and associates, and not say anything about

periodic, physical surveillance?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I cannot tell you what I stated.

I

was

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for quite a big period of time, quite a few years, interrogated,

by hours, and in different types of conditions, including

hostile conditions.:

Mr. Klein. That was by the CIA?

Mr. Nosenko. Where they asked questions in such form

which later my answer will be interpreted in any way, however

they want to interrogate us.

Mr. Klein. That was by CIA?

Mr. Nosenko. And I cannot tell you what I did say.

I

cannot remember dates. You must understand, it's hundreds of

interrogations, hundreds.

Mr. Klein. This period that you are telling us about,

you were questioned by the CIA during that period, is that

correct?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sure.

Mr. Klein. Were you questioned during that period by

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FBI?

Mr. Nosenko. I questioned by FBI in February, yes.

Mr. Klein. At this time I would ask that this document

be marked for identification and shown to the witness.

The Chairman. The clerk will indicate for the record

the number appearing on the document:

The Clerk. Exhibit JEK-F-5.

(The document referred to was marked

as JFK Exhibit No. F-5 for

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MI. Klein...

These hostile interrogations you just alluded

to, did they lead you to state other than the truth to these

interrogators?

Mr. Nosenko. I was answering questions which were püt

to me.

Mr. Klein.. Did you ever not tell the truth?

Mr. Nosenko. No, I was telling the truth.

Mr. Klein. I would direct your attention --

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir:

Mr. Klein.. Just a moment. Before you you have a

Federal Bureau of Investigation report, is that correct?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. Iwould direct your attention. to page 29 of

that report.

MI. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. The last paragraph, beginning with, "Nosenko

stated" -- it's underlined., Would you please read that

paragraph to us?

Mr. NOsenko. "Nosenko stated that in view of instruction

from the KGB Moscow, no active interest could be taken in

Oswald in Minsk without obtaining prior approval from KGB

in Moscow. According to Nosenko, no such approval was ever

requested or

granted, and based on his experience, he opined

that the only coverage of Oswald during this stay in Minsk

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consisted of periodic checks of his places of employment,

inquiries of neighbors and associates, and review of his mail

Mr. Klein. Did you make that statement?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir

What do you find here wrong?

Mr. Klein. Does that statement say anything about

physical surveillance?

Mr. Nosenko: No, it didn't.

Mr. Klein. Did you forget to tell them about the physical

surveillance?

Mr. Nosenko.

Maybe I forget; maybe they didn't put;

I do not know.

Mr. Klein.

Do you recall speaking to agents Poptanich

and Gheesling on March 3rd and 4th, 1964?

Mr. Nosenko. I cannot tell you.

I do remember the date

no.

I remember. I was. speaking with agents from FBI.

Mr. Klein. When you spoke to them, did you recall that

they spoke to you at that time, March 3id and 4th, about

Lee: Harvey. Oswald?

Mr. Nosenko. I told you, they were speaking with me

about Oswald, but I cannot tell you the date whem.

Mr. Klein.

Was it in March 1964?.

Mr. Nosenko. They were speaking with me -- February

and the beginning of March of 1964.

Mr. Klein... And did they tape the conversations?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, they were taping all conversations.

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Mr. Klein. Did the agents make notes

when you were

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talking?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. Did they ever show you those notes?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Klein. Were you aware that the statements you were

making to them were going to be written down in to a réport?

Mr. Nosenko. Sure.

Mr. Klein. Did you ever have an opportunity to see the

report?:

Mr. Nosenko. No. The only one which was sent to the

Warren Commission, this I have seen.

Mr. Klein. Were you aware that the report would be put

in your file?

Mr. Nosenko. Must be.

Mr. Klein. Were you aware that report would be shown to

•a committee such as this investigating the assassination?

• Mr. Nosenko. I didn't know that it would be created, the

Committee, because it was 1964.

Mr. Klein. You didn't know that?

Mr. Nosenko. No. Did you know that this Committée --

in 1964 -- will be existing in '78, '77?

Mr. Klein. And were you telling them the truth when you

told them that the only coverage of Oswald, and listing these things and

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not telling them about the physical surveillance, was that the

truth you told them?

Mr. Nosenko. Well, I told them that there was done the

work against Oswald; it was ordered, passive type of work ,

it's called passive. Whenever it's ordered not to make an

approachment, not to make a contact, not to make a recruit-

ment, this is passive.

Anything when enters besides whatever is done, contact,

approachments, recruitment,

attempt to recruit, it is

immediately called active.

MI. Klein. Looking at; that report, did you tell. them

about the physical surveillance which you told this Committee

about yesterday?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not see here, but I have no

doubts.

I do not know.

Maybe I didn't mention that this

date you said, maybe. I didn't mention but I was telling

them about surveillance.

Mr. Klein. Didn't you tell us that you always told the

truth and told everything you knew when you spoke to the FBI

and the CIA?

MI. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. If they would have asked you, "Was there

physical surveillance?" --

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I will answer yes, it was.

Mr. Klein. -- you would have answered yes?

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Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. You also testified before this Committee that

in accord with the orders from Moscow that there was technical

surveillance, and you told us in detail about how they tapped

his phone and they would record it and make copies of it

and

gave it to a certain person.

Again, drawing your attention to page 29 of that same

paragraph, does that say anything about the technical sur-

veillance that you told us

about?

Mr. Nosenko. No, SII.!

Mr. Klein. Did you forget?

Mr. Nosenko. But, if you ask, even an agent of FBI,

I doubt it, no. In KGB control of correspondence, control of

telephone, it's not big deal. It's giving order to control a

telephone can

be given by Chief of Section, not speaking of

Chief of Department, not speaking of Chief of Directorate,

and not speaking to receive a warrant from the judge. Control

of correspondence can be signed, permission to put control

over correspondence can be done by the Deputy Chief of

Section even.

Do you understnd what I want to tell you, it is absolutely

considered, KGB, nothing important.

Mr. Klein. Is it a big deal to check periodically at

someone's place of employment and talk to their neighbors?

Is

that a big deal?

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Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Klein. But you told them about that, didn't you?

Mr. Nosenko. I tried simply to describe them what

kind of, not to take active

-- what does it mean, passive type

of coverage of the target?

Mr. Klein. "If they would have asked you was there any

technical surveillance, then would you have told them?

MI. Nosenko. I would have said they were told, even

word for word, in this document said not the technical surveil-

lance. They have a certain

terminology. Let's say surveil-

lance, it's called to lead i the measurement: N/N, and to

controlntelephone.cto.nhead.thecmeasurement M.

Mr. Klein. If they would have said, "Was there any

technical surveillance of Oswald?" would you have said

"yes"?

Mr. Nosenko. Sure.

Mr. Klein, You also testified to this Committee that

the KGB would have had to have known about Marina Oswald,

you said, by the end of the month they would have a batch

of papers?

Mr. Nosenko. You told me, if she had seen him, you

something metnioned, 15, 13.

Mr. Klein. Because surveillance was on Oswald, they would

have had to pick her up?

Mr. Nosenko.

I cannot tell you it was in the moment when

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he was seeing her or not.

You said assume that he met her

16. and 13, and it became known to KGB through surveillance. I

said by the end of month that at least something will have on

her, who is she, where she is working, where she studied, where

she work.

Mr. Klein.

They would

know that through the surveillance

on Oswald?

Mr. Nosenko. The fact will be known through surveillance;

then through other outfits of KGB they will find whatever

possible on her.

Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked the following question

and did you give the following answer:

"Question: Why wouldn't she - referring to Marina -- have

been investigated when she first met Oswald?

"Answer: They did not know she was a friend of Oswald

until they applied for marraige. There was no surveillance

on Oswald to show that he knew her."

Were you ever asked that question and did you

give that

answer?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember my questions, and

answers.

Mr. Klein. I would ask that this document be marked for

identification, please, and shown to the witness.

The Chairman. The clerk will identify for the record

the number appearing on the document.

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• The Clerk.

JFK-F-6.

2

(The document referred to was

marked as JFK Exhibit No. :F-6. for

identification.)

that document, have you ever seen

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Mr.

Klein.

Looking at

it before?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.

Mr. Klein. You have never seen that before?

Mr. Nosenko. I never have seen it before.

Mr. Klein. And is that a report that says on the cover,

"Memorandum for the Record; Subject: Followup

Report on the

Oswald Case; Source: AEDONOR."

Was AEDONOR your code name

at one time?

Mr. Nosenko. I do not know.

Mr. Klein.

"Date of Interview: 3 July 1964." Does it

say that on the cover?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. And turning

to the very last page, page 18.--

Mr. Nosenko. Yes,

sir.

Mx .

Klein. Does it say,

"Thomas A. Ryan"?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes. :

Mr. Klein. "SR/CI/KGB"?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Klein. Did you ever hear of a man named Thomas A.

Ryan?

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Mr. Nosenko. No, I do not know a man Thomas A. Ryan.

Mr. Klein. Do you recall speaking to a man named

Thomas Ryan?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.

Mr. Klein. Would you turn in this document to page 9.

On page 9, the last question and answer, would you read the

question for us, and read the answer?

Mr. Nosenko. "Why wouldn't she have been investigated

when she first met Oswald?!

"They didn't know she was a friend of Oswald until they

applied for marriage. There was no surveillance on Oswald

to show that he knew her."

Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked that question and did you

ever.--

Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember, sir. But if it is,

it must be asked and I this answered.

Mr. Klein. Was that the truth?

Mr. Nosenko. As far

aS

remember, those conditions in

which I was asked, better ask where I was in this period of

time, what conditions I was kept, and what type of interrogations

were going on.

Mr. Klein. Did you tell us yesterday that you always

told the truth?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Klein. -- when you spoke about Oswald?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Klein. Was this question relating to. Oswald?

Mr. Nosenko. I was answering what I could.

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Mr. Klein. Is that the truth, that they didn't -

Mr. Nosenko. It's how it is put, how it is put. You see,

again, why wouldn't she have been investigated. Here must be

question was in this form. The investigation, not the checkup

of her, but, let's say, invitation for conversation, something

of this kind, it's some kind of here misunderstanding on both

parts, that would be mine, and interrogator.

Mr. Klein. It is an inaccurate transcript?

Mr. Nosenko. I consider many, many things are

inaccurate.

Mr. Klein.

Is that transcribed accurately?

MI •

Nosenko. I do not know, sir.

MI.

Klein. That answer,

do you think it is transcribed

accurately, that that's

your answer?

Mr. Nosenko.

Well, I can only explain only one thing.

Let's say there was KGB found

out that he had an acquaintance,

Marina Prusakova, They were not married. They didn't know --

they didn't apply for marriage.

What kind of first will be

investigation? Checkup in archives of KGB of Byelorussia, and

on the basis whatever kind of material on her will be found.

Let's say, if she, was ever

on trial by militia, under arrest.

If militia had any material,:

they can expand further. They

can also send checkup in the place of her -- one, it's in one

order, to give us the picture of the character of the target,

check on him in place of his work and check in place of his living,

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in one order.

But more, farther investigation, the true investigation -

this is called checkup -- will be studied and they will start

when they see something, let's say, suspicious in behavior of

Oswald and this his connection..

In case of Marina, when

they found out that they are going

to marry, sure, they will be

more, farther investigation,

thorough invetigation; but before it will only be checkup.

From thispoint of view I was answering this question.

Mr. Klein. Let me make

it simple.

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. If the question was asked exactly as it appears

here, "Why wouldn't she have been investigated when she first

met Oswald?" would this be your answer? Is that a correct

answer as it appears here?

Mr. Nosenko. Well, it

appears here, but I do not remember.

Sure, I answered and this was question, but, gentlemen

Mr. Klein. Was this true? This says "There was no

surveillance on Oswald to show that he knew her" -- is that

right or wrong?

Mr. Nosenko. This is what I answered, yes. It is right.

It is written here.

Mr. Klein. You remember answering that?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Klein. How do you know you answered that?

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Mr. Nosenko. You are giving me official document..

Mr. Klein. You have no recollection of answering this?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not have any recollection

of

interrogations.

Mr. Klein.

If you answered that, were you telling the

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truth?

Mr. Nosenko. I don't know. I answered. Must be. This

is how I answered question.

Mr. Klein. You testified to this Committee that the KGB

decided to have Lee Harvey Oswald examined by two psychiatrists

You told

us about how it was decided, who decided it, where

it

was decided. Then they found Lee Harvey Oswald to be mentally

unstable?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. Have you ever been asked the following

questions and given the following answers:

"Question: Did the KGB make a psychological assessment

of Oswald?

"Answer: No, nothing, but at the hospital it was also said

he was

not quite normal. The hospital didn't write that he was

mad,

just that he is not normal:

"Question:

Did the hospital authorities conduct any

psychological testing?

"Answer: I don't think' sö. ' There was no report like this."

Mr. Nosenko. No, I told that there was

opinion of

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psychiatrists that hewas mentally unstable.

Mr. Klein.

Is what I read to you correct?

Mr. Nosenko.

Sir, I do not know whether it is correct or

wrong. I am answering you what I know.

Mr.

Klein. Did you ever make a statement like that?

Mr.

Nosenko. I do not remember statements for five years,

interrogation.

MI. Klein. I would direct your attention to the Ryan

Report.

Mr. Nosenko.

Yes.

Mr.

Klein.

Page 7.

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Klein. Would you read for

us the first and second

questions and answers, please.

Mr. Nosenko. "Did the KGB make psychological assessment

of Oswald?"

"No, nothing. But at the hospital it was also said he

was not quite normal.

The hospital didn't write that he was

mad,:

just that he was not normal, mentally unstable."

Mr. Klein. Please keep reading.

Mr. Nosenko. "Did the hospital authorities conduct any

psychological testing?"

"I don't think so. There was no report like this.

"What was the Soviets' opinion of Oswald's personality,

what kind

of man did they think he was?"

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"KGB throught he was of no interest for the country or

for the KGB, that he is not normal, that he should leave

the country.

"

Mr. Klein. Did you say

anything in there about two

psychiatrists examining Oswald and about reading their reports

which said he was mentally unstable?. Did you say anything

about that there?

Mr. Nosenko. •Sir, I do not remember what I said to them;

but I would like you to find out the conditions in which interr-

gations were done, how it was

done, by what procedures, when

two interrogators are seated

I never knew any names - they

never announced me names -- one playing part of bad guy and othet

good

guy, and it starting slapping then, not physically but I

mean, psychologically and in conversation, turning question up-

side down, however they would like, then this leave, another one

will start

in softer way.

Mr. Klein. When did this --

Mr. Nosenko.

And I would not trust ny of their documents

in those periods of time. Up to 1967 when we started from the

beginning.

to work, Mr. Bruce Solie. That is the one thing.

Second,.

my

knowledge of language was very poor in '64. I didn't

understand

many questions, and none of them, excluding Mr.

Deryabin, knew Russian language and Mr. Deryabin was asking

me only questions concerning my biography and this type of ques-

ition, but nonoperative questions.

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Mr. Klein. Do you have any recollection of being asked

these questions and giving the answers that you just read to us?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I told you, and I will tell, I do not

remember their questions, and I do not remember my answers; but

I tried to

be truthful with them. Then was period of time when

I have seen

that they were simply was laughing at me; I: rejected

to answer

questions, and whenever they were asking, I would

answer,

not remember, I do not know, I do not remember."

Mr. Klein:

These answers, do they say "I do not know,

I do not remember" or do these

give responsive answers?

Mr. Nosenko. sir, I do

not trust this document prepared

by people in those years..

Mr. Klein. Is it your testimony that these might not be

accurate questions and answers?

Mr. Nosenko.

My opinion -- I cannot tell you exactly! I

say might be.

Mr. Klein. You testified

Mr. Nosenko.

One more

thing: If we are going into this,

a number of interrogations; I

was under drugs, and on me was

used a number of drugs, and

know that, and hallucinations

and talking during night and sodium and everything,. even many

others, and a number of things were absolutely incoherent.

Mr. Klein. This hostile

interrogation that you have been

referring to, when did it begin?

Mr. Nosenko. Arrested me 4th of April, 1964, started

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interrogate me in two days.

They interrupted -- I don't know

interrogate a month, two, made break; then again, then again

period of no interrogation; then again interrogations, up to

24 hours; not giving me possibility to sleep.

Mr. Klein.

And this was all after April 4, 1964?

Mr. Nosenko." Yes; sir.

"That is why I will not take as a document anything what

concerns interrogations in hostile, absolutely hostile,

situation.

Mr. Klein. You testified in detail yesterday about the

cable which you saw which was

sent from Mexico City to the First

Chief Directorate in Moscow, and you testified that you actually

read that cable and that it told that Oswald was in Mexico City

and he wanted permission for visa to come to the Soviet Union.

Do you remember reading that cable: and describing it for

us in detail, how long it was?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. Did you ever say to anyone that after Oswald

went:to Minsk, the

next time you heard of him was in connection

with Oswald's application to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City

for a Soviet reentry visa, and you did not know how Mexico City

ladvised Moscow of the subject's application; your knowledge

resulted from an oral inquiry of your department by M.I. Turalin

Did you ever say that, that you did not know how Mexico

¡City advised Moscow of Oswald's application?

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Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember. I am telling you what

I have seen, cable, what was told through Lieutenanti Colonel

Alekseev to tell to Turalin the opinion of Second Chief Directorate

Seventh Department.

Mr. Klein.

I draw your attention to page 30 of the FBI

report in front of you.

Mr. Nosenko. I do not have it.

(Pause)

Yes, sir.

Mr.

Klein. On the top of page 30, read for us the under-

lined

section on the top, beginning "The next time" --

Mr. Nosenko. "The next time Nosenko heard of Oswald was

in connection with Oswald's application to Soviet Embassy in

Mexico City for a Soviet reentry visa. Nosenko did not know how

Mexico City advised Moscow of subject's application. His

knowledge

resulted from an oral inquiry of Nosenko's department

by Turalin,

Service No. 2,. Counterintelligence in Foreign

Countries,

First Chief Directorate. Nosenko recalled that Turalin

had orally contacted Vladimir Alexseev, Chief of Sixth Section

of Nosenko's Tourist Department, with respect to Oswald.

Nosenko's

department had no interest in Oswald and they

recommended

• that Oswald's request for reentry visa be denied

Nosenko couldn't recall when Oswald visited Mexico City in

connection with visa application."

Mr. Klein. Did you ever say this to an FBI agent?

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Mr. Nosenko. Must be I said it, it's here in document.

Mr. Klein. It says in here that Nosenko did not know how

Mexico City advised Moscow of subject's application. Did you .

say that?

Mr. Nosenko. Must be; I said this in this way.

Mr. Klein. And did you tell us that not only did you know

how they advised them by cable but that you read the cable?

Mr. Nosenko. This is what I recollection.

Mr. Klein. Did you tell them the truth?

Mr.

Nosenko. I was trying to tell what I remembered.

Mr.

Klein. And this FBI report which you just read from,

would you look back on the first page and would you tell us the

date

of thatreport?

MI. Nosenko. Fifth of March, 1964.

Mx. Klein. March 5, 1964. Is that before April 4,

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1964?

Mr. Nosenko.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. That was before any hostile interrogations

began, is

that correct?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Klein. And at that time you said that you did not know

anything about the cable, is that right?

Mr.

Nosenko. This is what I answered them, how I

remembered.

Mr. Klein, I have a question. Do you understand from what

psychological turmoil a person, passing who defected, do

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you understand that it is necessary time, time to settle psy

chologically, he doesn't know how he will be living, what he will

be doing, and at the same time a person feels attitude on the

part of those who helped him to come CIA? I felt something

going on.

Mr. Klein. You testified to us today that you didn't

know how wrote the summary of Oswald's file in the First Depart-

ment because you never had an opportunity to read it. Did you

ever tell anyone that Fedroseve and Matveev, Fre-d-r-o-s-e-v-e

and M-a-t-v-e-e-v of the First Department, Second Chief

Directorate, took the file and wrote a second "spravka", which

you told us was a summary?

Mr. Nosenko. Summary.

Mr. Klein. Did you ever tell anybody that?

Mr. Nosenko. Must be I told, it is again right, because

you see, not Fedroseve -- Fedroseve was Chief of First Depart-

ment, American Department, and I will repeat what I told you

yesterday. Matveev has come to take file, but surely. Fedroseve

who

is Chief of American Department, he had given call to Chief

of Seventh Department. He was involved in this; that is why I

mentioned him. He was Chief of First American Department.

His deputy, Colonel Matveev, has come, and not alone; with him

was a couple of officers, has come and told that Gribanov

ordered and Fedroseve giving call to Department, we must take

it, and took. Who of them wrote, I do not know, no doubts that Fedroseve,

and Matveev were participated in the preparation of documents.

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They are responsible for First American Department.

MI. Klein. So you have an idea of who would have written,

is that correct?

Mr. Nosenko. American Department, no doubts that this

two will be participating or correcting.

Mr. Klein. But you didn't read that summary, is that right?

Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember reading the summary.

Mr. Klein.

Did you read it? Do you have any recollection

of reading it?

Mr. Nosenko. No, I haven't seen summary.

Mr. Klein.

Are you positive that you didn't see that

summary?

Mr. Nosenko. I have seen summaries in the file of Oswald.

Mr. Klein. Are you positive you didn't see the summary

written by the First Department after they took the file away?

Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember seeing. As I told you,.

I

haven't seen it.

Mr. Klein. You testified that Oswald was considered normal

prior to the time he cut his wrist, and even told us that you

were surprised, you had no indication he would do something

like that.

Were you ever asked the following question, and did you

give

the following answer:

"In what way was the Oswald case handled differently from

cases of other American defectors?"

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"Answer:

The main difference is that he was not to be

allowed to stay. He was considered to be not normal."

Mr. Nosenko. This is what cases I know, who were staying.

Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not

normal, referring to the period before he tried to commit suicide?

Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember; but if I said it, it's

not right becuase we didn't know. that he was normal or not

normal. Up until the moment of he cut his wrist we started to

suspect.

Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not

normal?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember.

Mr. Klein. Well, if you would have said it, would it have

been correct?

Mr. Nosenko. No, it would not be correct, because he cannot

be considered abnormal.

We didn't know anything up till he

cut the wrist.

Mr. Klein. You testified to this Committee that you were

present at a meeting with the Chief of the Seventh Department

Chief of your section, Major Rastrusin, at that meeting, it was

decided that Oswald should not be given permission to defect.

You told us where the meeting took place, told us who

was

there.

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. You told us that Krupnov was not even in the

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Seventh Department at that time?

Mr. Nosenko. Krupnov appeared a little later.

Mr. Klein. Did you ever teli anyone that on the basis of

your evaluation of Oswald, you instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald

through Intourist interpreter that Oswald would not be permitted

to remain in the U.s.s.R. permanently and that he would have

to depart at the expiration of his visa?

Did you ever tell anybody that?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember. If I said it, it

was wrong, not right, because Krupnov started participation only

in this case when Oswald was allowed to stay. In the moment

when Oswald arrived in Soviet Union, when he went in hospital,

Krupnov was still not in Seventh Department. He very soon

appeared later. Then it was wrong. If I stated. it, it was

wrong.

Mr. Klein. Directing your attention to the FBI report in

front of you, I would like to draw your attention to page 28.

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Klein. Beginning with the underlined section beginning

with the first "On the basis" in the second paragraph, would

you read this?

Mr. Nosenko. "Nosenko and Krupnov on the basis of this

information, concluded that Oswald was of no interest to the

KGB and both agreed that Oswald appeared somewhat abnormal."

Mr. Klein. Not that, the second paragraph, "On the basis

of"--

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Mr. Nosenko.

"On the basis of Nosenko's evaluation of

Oswald, he instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald through the

Intourist interpreter Oswald would not be permitted to remain in!

the U.S.S.R. permanently and that he would have to depart at

the expiration of hisvisa, and thereafter seek reentry as a

permanent resident through routine channels at the Soviet

Embassy in the United States."

Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that?

Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember saying this. It can be

that simply misunderstanding, and, you see, this is not

transcription from the tape. It is, I will say a summary, and

I do nöt remember. But, if I säid this, it is: not right because

Krupnov didn't participate it in the beginning.

Mr. Klein.. Also it says --

Mr. Nosenko. It was participation of Rastrusin.

Mr. Klein.. Also is it correct when it says in tere

- that

you made the decision and --

Mr. Nosenko. No, I couldn't make decision, being Deputy

Chief of Section.

Mr. Klein.. Does it say anything there --

Mr. Nosenko. I could say my opinion, yes.

Mr. Klein. Does it say anything there about a meeting

to

determine what to do, or does it say that on basis of your

evaluation, you told Krupnov to do it?

Mr. Nosenko. It's not right. I said only that krupnov

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appeared later. This period, what we are discussing here, was

Rastrusin involved, decision cannot be done on my own, being

Deputy Chief of Section, decision cannot be done even being

Deputy Chief of Section, Chief of Section, at least it

must be on the level of Chief of Department.

Mr. Klein.

so it is incorrect, is that what you are saying?

Mr. Nosenko. It is incorrect, and Krupnov -- I do not

remember.

Mr. Klein. You told us, when I questioned you about the

fact thät you didn't tell the FBI that there was physical

surveillance, the last question I asked you, if they would have

asked you if he was physically surveilled, would you have told

them, and you

said yes?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sure. I will say..

Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked the following question

and did you give the following answer:

"Was he physically surveilled" and that is referring to

Minsk; and you answered "No, there was

none"?

Mr. Nosenko. It was not right, because it was order given

and he was under periodical surveillance.

Mr. Klein. I draw your attention to page 9 of the CIA

document in front of you, Memorandum for the Record.

Mr. Nosenko. I do not have it.

Mr. Klein. The Ryan Report. I draw your attention to page

24

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Mr. Nosenko.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Klein. Would you read ithe first question and the first

answer?

Mr. Nosenko.

"Was

he physically surveilled?"

"No, there was none."

Mr. Klein.

Did you ever

give that answer to that question?

Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember; it's not right, the

answer.

Mr. Klein. I would ask that this tape, which is marked

3

July '64, Reel No. 66, be deemed marked for identification.

The Chairman. Indicate for the record the marking.

The Clerk. JFK-F-7.

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(The item referred to was marked

as JFK Exhibit No. F-7 for

identification.)

The Chairman.

We will recess for about five minutes.

(A brief recess was taken.)

The Chairman. The Committee is back in session.

During the recess the witness made a request of the

Chair that he be permitted to make a brief statement prior to

counsel for the Committee resuming interrogation.

The Chair is going to

grant that request and recognize

the witness at this time for such

statement as he would like

to make.

Mr. Nosenko.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

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Mr. Chairman, ladies and

gentlemen, I arrived in the

United States in 1964, 12th of February. I felt something was

going wrong because the attitude on the part of the officers

from CIA who was dealing with me, I felt was going wrong, by

a number of remarks, their behavior. Besides, I was in a

psychological process. It's a very big thing, when you are com-

ing to live in a new country. I left the country where I was

born, never mind, my defection was strictly on ideological

basis, but still psychologically is very big thing and very

serious thing.

A very short period of time, April 4, I was invited on check-

up for the doctor, and this checkup turned to be arrest.

Arrested was in very rude form, nobody beat my physically ,

no, but in rude. form, trying to put dignity of the person, of

human being, down, kept in very hard conditions. I was

smoking from 14 years old, never quitted. Iwas rejected to

smoke. I didn't see books. I didn't read anything. I was

sitting in four walls, metal bed in the center of the room

and

that is all.

I was hungry, and this was the most difficult for me because

how I tried not to think about food. I was thinking about food

because all the time I want to eat. I was receiving very small

amount, and very poor food. I was sitting some kind of attic;

it was hot, no air conditioning, cannot breathe; windows -- no

windows, closed over. I was permitted to shave once

week,

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to take showers once a week.

From me were taken toothpaste, toothbrush. The conditions

were really inhuman, conditions in this place; and later

transferred in another place, which is now I know where it

was, the second place,

where certain house and the

same very, very Spartan conditions; three and a half years.

Besides that, on me were used different types of drugs and

sleeping drugs, hallucination drugs, and whatever I do not know;

and don't want to know.

What I want to tell you, the arrest was done illegally.

without due process of law, without -- in violation of

Constitution, :

which was found by Rockefeller Commission. It

wasn't mentioned, my name, but simply nameless defector, who

was over three years in extremely Spartan conditions.

Interrogations were done sometimes 24 hours, not giving me

an hour to sleep.. Interrogations were in very hostile manner.

Simply, what I would say were rejected. How long I will be, why

it is without due process, no warrants; "You will be eternally,

25 years." How long we would want. you to keep.. That is why

I consider all interrogations, all materials, which concerns

this period of time are illegal, and I am not recognizing them

and don't want to see them. And I am asking you not to ask

questions based on this interrogations, including trying to

play the tape during this interrogations. For me it's difficulti

to return back. I passed through hell. I started new life in

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'69 only because I was true defector.. I never raised this

question with correspondents. I never went in press, because.

I am loyal to the country which accepted me, and I didn't wanted

to. hurt the country.

I dian't hurt, even to hurt, the intelligence, the CIA.

I didn't consider the whole CIA was responsibe. Were responsible

several people, for this. Thank God they are not working there

anymore. They are

out. If I will go in press, if I would

be telling about these inhumane conditions, I will hurt not only

the agencies, the intelligence service of the U.s., I will hurt

the interests of the U.s.. Who would like to defect, reading

in what conditions and what treatment defectors

is receiving.

Sir, I prefer that you be using materials when it was started

humane relations with me, which was started at the

end of 167.

I still was under arrest but I was transferred from the extremely

Spartan conditions, and with me started to work Mr. Bruce

Solie, who passed through the whole life, through all cases,

through everything. People who were talking with me before

were coming with what they were told, how to approach to me,

how to treat me. They have come with made opinion, before

whatever I will say yes or no. That is why I consider it

is all unlawful documents in the period of interrogations done

by anyone in CIA. up until the end of '67.

The Chairman. Is there anything further, Mr. Nosenko?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.

(Pages 53 thru 78, being Committee business only, are excerpted.)

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LUF VLONET

78

Blakey. Shall I inform the witness?

The Chairman. In light of the time situation and our

original intention of trying to wind up by 10:00 pim., the Chair

thinks perhaps we ought to try and invoke a five minute rule

that everybody gets a fair opportunity rather than to proceed

informally and extend this matter over a long period of time.

Anyone have any objection?

All right, bring the witness in.

(Whereupon, at 8:43 o'clock

p.m., the witness returned

to the hearing room.)

The Chairman. Let the record reflect the fact the witness

has again returned to the witness table and, Mr. Nosenko,

at this time counsel for the Committee has concluded his questions

to you and at thispoint in time the members of the Committee

would like to be able to pose questions to you with reference

to your testimony here yesterday and this evening. Is that

agreeable to you, sir?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Thank you.

The Chair at this point would invoke the five minute

rule.

The Chair will begin the questions.

Mr. Nosenko, you are now a citizen of the United States,

you are now an employee of the CIA, I understand as a consultant,

is

that correct?

Mr. Nosenko. On private contract. I am. not an employee

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of the CIA. I am on, a private contract, used as a consultant

on counterintelligence of the Soviet KGB.

The Chairman. And in that capacity, sir, are you paid an

annual salary?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, I am paid an annual salary.

The Chairman. And what is that salary?

Mr. Nosenko.

$35,000.

The Chairman.

And --

Mr. Nosenko. It is the last year, because it was cost of

living.

The Chairman. I see.

In that capacity, do you contract

out also to other persons or other organizations?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

The Chairman. This is your sole income?

Mr. Nosenko.

Only one sole income.

The Chairman. Has the CIA given you anything else of

value other

than a salary, that is, a home, anything of that

sort?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. And in the book published, written

by Epstein was mentioned CIA bought me home. No, sir, I bought

home on my money, nobody bought me a home, no.

The Chairman. You also now are remarried and you have -

Mr. Nosenko.

Yes, sir, I am married. I am American citizen,

I have five stepchildren and six grandchildren.

The Chairman.

You now have a passport?. Do you have a

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Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I have a passport, which I once used

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I

was talking with

concerning my knowledge of the Second Chief Direc-

torate, KGB in general.

The Chairman. Is that the only country to which you have

traveled since your defection?

Mr.

Nosenko. No. I have traveled on behalf of the

Central Intelligence Agency also for the last four years. I.

was in

countries. And I never received or demanded or

asking any special fees for consultations with all

never.

The Chairman. Have you ever returned to Soviet Russia?

Mr. Nosenko. Never once in Soviet Union from 1964 and

hope will never see it again.

The Chairman. And how long have you now been a consultant

for CIA?

Mr. Nosenko. I was from 1969, from April 1969, when I was

released from detention arrest.

The Chairman. Now, will you clarify for us when you first

were placed under arrest?

Mr. Nosenko. Fourth of April, 1964.

The Chairman. And on what date had you defected?

Mr. Nosenko. I defected 4th of February of 1964 in Geneva,

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Switzerland.

The Chairman.

And when you were placed under arrest,

where were you placed in detention?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not know, it was somewhere around

Washington, close to Washington, where I was '64 and beginning

'65, approximately. I don't hear any radio, I didn't see any

newspaper, I do not know, didn't know anything what happen in

the world for many years.

I know that it was by car from Virginia where I was

staying from 12 of February '64, I was taken by car for visit

to doctor, and it was 30, 40 minute drive, it was in this area,

but then in approximately after a year and maybe 13 months, a

year and one month, roughly, I was transferred in very

peculiar conditions, was put under shackles and handcuffs,

blindfolded, put in the car, and don't know where I was

going,

only I heard, passing through city, I couldn't understand, I

couldn't see anything, then I heard airplanes, I understood

that I was somëwhere in airport, and once I was scared to death,

I think I was thinking they were returning me to the Russians.

Well, they put me in airplane --

The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, my time has expired. I want

to recognize -

Mr. Nosenko. I do not know the place, sir.' I know I only

now found out reading the book of Daniel Schorr that I was in

up to the end of '67. That is what I found out from

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the book.

The Chairman.

Thank you.

Mr. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer.

Mr. Nosenko, one thing that comes through very

strongly in your testimony is that it is a hard life to be a

defector. I think to the average mentality we think it would

be

good for a country to welcome a defector, but to the

intelligence mentality apparently a defector is immediately sus-

pect, and you have recounted your treatment here, and apparenti»

Lee Harvey Oswald, from your testimony, was greeted somewhat

like this in the U.S.S.R. 'His treatment was much different

from yours.

One thing he was not an intelligence agent, of course.

But you have indicated that he was kept at arms' length by the

KGB.

The impression I get was the mere fact of being a defector

caused the KGB to be less interested in him than if it was

someone they had recruited?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Preyer. Although he was kept at arms' length: by the

KGB, in the sense that he was not contacted, it does appear

that he lived very well there, relatively speaking.

He cer-

tainly lived much better than you lived in your early years.

That he was given a job in Minsk, he was given a pension,

which is something that seems extraordinary in this country,

from the

Red Cross, and apparently pretty good housing conditions

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in Minsk.

Is that typical way that a defector would be treated in

Russia, is at arm's length?:

Mr. Nosenko. Every defector will be watched but, sir,

when you mentioned what he received being in Russia, it is very

little. I can give you only one example.

When defectors

Martin and Mitchell, employees of NSA, who cooperated with KGB

abroad, and then they defected to Soviet Union, they received

extraordinary help.. It is not like Oswald. Oswald is nothing.

MI. Preyer. The amount of money?

Mr. Nosenko. The amount of money and other things,

extroardinary.

Mr. Preyer. For Oswald were not extraordinary?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Preyer. You mentioned the other three defectors that

you had known of. What sort of treatment did they receive?

Mr. Nosenko. I will tell you what Martin and Mitchell --

Mr. Preyer. Were they two of the other three?

Mr. Nosenko.

These two, for example. I can mention others,

what I heard, I never work with them, what I heard.

Martin

and Mitchell, by decision of Soviet Government was given them,

to each one, $100,000 on their account, was given apartment,

not like Oswald received, but real good apartment, so-called

classless society living high class. Each one was given car,

each one received life pension a month of 5000 soviet rubles

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up

to death. And each one was helped with work. Both were

assigned with: some.type: of research work where they had given

position, let's say Martin was given position of researcher.

But amount of pay of his was analogical to the amount of pay

of

the Director of this Institute, besides what he is

receiving of pension. This is the treatment of those defectors

whom they want, who had given them valuable information.

In case of -- excuse me -- was Annabella Bucar defected

something early '50s. She was working in American Embassy in

Press Department. She also received, in spite of the fact

was making very good money in the Soviet Union, she was working

for Moscow Radio, she was receiving life pension of big amount,

amount approximately what in Soviet Union is received by Deputy

of Minister, of Ministry, of this or that industry.

Mr. Preyer. But the defector who was not giving informa-

tion?

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Mr. Nosenko. Now, he will be given a little bit something,

pension like was Oswald, to Oswald

given pension. I don't

know what was given to webster, a worker, who was defected in '59

and by the way, in very short period of time he decided he

doesn't like the life in the so-called Soviet paradise.

wanted to return back home, but if he received it will be

analogical to what Oswald received, not more.

The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired..

Mr. Devine.

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Mr. Devine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Were you solicited to be a defector?

Mr. Nosenko. No,.

sir. No, sir.

Mr. Devine.. Why did you defect?

Mr. Nosenko. I defected because I for years of my life

has come to number of conclusions that the whole society, the

whole system,

is dictatorial system, nondemocratic system,

the true police state system, and especially working the

KGB opened eyes for me. My defection was strictly on ideologi

cal basis.

Mr. Devine.

Had you been out of the Soviet Union prior

to your defection?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Devine. Other than to Geneva?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I was in England twice, then I was

passing through a number of countries, staying day, two,

France, Belgium, HOlland. I was in 1960 in Cuba.

Mr. Devine. You were a married man in Russia?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Devine. Had a child?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, two daughters.

Mr. Devine. Were you having some domestic difficulties?

Mr. Nosenko. No. I tried in 1960-'61, I tried to arrange

to go to work abroad with my family, and in the last moment

it-fell down, and I understood I cannot

go abroad with 'family,

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and that is why when I contacted CIA in '62, I -- psychologically

was ready, ideologically was ready and psychologically

ready

to defect, but the question of family was bothering me.

Mr. Devine. But not enough to keep you there?

Mr. Nosenko. Not enough to keep me there. And in '64

I has come knowing that I will never return.

Mr. Devine. You were willing to abandon your family?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, because I didn't see possibility

to take family out. I was living the last four or five years

as a man with two souls, splitted personality, one I must show

and was showing, as good KGB officer, as a

good Communist, as

a patriot of

the soviet system, the Soviet Union, and the other

part of me, the true part I am not believing in what I am

telling, I am not believing in

the system, I do not like it,

I

do not want it, and I consider what phony things are going

on because I was working in KGB, I knew it. I simply couldn't

more tolerate to be with this double splitted personality.

Mr. Devine. How did you dispose of your children and your

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|wife in Russia?

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Mr. Nosenko. The thing was psychologically, my had, had

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in my mind. help me. My mother was rather rich, after death of

father, she was very rich woman and she had a lot that will be

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children. From the point of view of material they will never

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suffer.

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Mr. Devine. Yes, but as a defector would there not be

reprisals taken by the Soviet Union against your family?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, before the death of Stalin it could

be taken drastic measures against the family, but after the

death of Stalin, from middle 1950s, quite a little changes took

place in the Soviet Union, and the family will not suffer.

Another thing, oh sure, will be certain things which they

cannot achieve. Let's say my brother who studied later in

the same Institute what I finish, Institute of International

Relations, he will never have possibility to go abroad, but

he will never be put in jail, can never be exiled from Moscow,

the same, nothing happened with family.

Mr. Devine.

The fact that you were a KGB man didn't your

defection cause some irritation among those in power over there?

Mr. Nosenko. Sure.

Mr. Devine. Did they want to get you back, didn't they

want to get even with you?

Mr. Nosenko. Oh, yes, and they are looking for me.

Mr. Devine. But they took no reprisals against your family.

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Devine. How do you know that?

Mr. Nosenko. Well, I do not know exactly, but you see,

there were some defections before. The family didn't suffer like

it was, let's say, in '40s and maybe up to death of Stalin.

Mr. Devine. Were those KGB defections?

Mr. Nosenko. Even from KGB.

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The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mrs. Burke?

Mrs. Burke.

well, I would like to go back a little bit

after you

decided to defect. I think you had a number of

conversations with the American Embassy, was it, or was

it

CIA, during those

ten days that you were in touch, where

you

negotiated whether or not you would in fact defect?

Mr. Nosenko. No, I contacted CIA in "1962 and --

Mrs. Burke. In '64?

Mr. Nosenko. In '64, when I arrived in Geneva,

on second

day I mailed

a cable, and I knew - a prearranged addressed,

and I knew that in two days somebody in appropriate place and

appropriate time will meet me from CIA..

Mrs. Burke. And they met you

Mr. Nosenko.. They met me and I was meeting them every

day, visiting, and when I had free time, visited secret address

in Geneva.

Mrs. Burke. All right, during those times you were meeti

them, did you negotiate in terms of what your situation would

be here in the United States if you defected, or where you

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Mr. Nosenko.

well, I put a

question that what amount

salary I want, that will find for me job. This I negotiate

Mrs. Burke.

Did you discuss whether or not you wou?

" be imprisoned?

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Mr. Nosenko. No, it never come to my mind that they would

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imprison me.

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Mrs. Burke. Did you tell them that -- I think you told

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us you had some information you would well to them for a

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certain amount of money.

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Mr. Nosenko. It's in '62.

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Mrs. Burke. In '62 you said that. In '64 you didn't

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discuss any sale of any information?

9

Mr. Nosenko. No, no, on the contrary, for the period of

10

'62 -'64, I tried to get as much as possible information: not

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only to come what I knew where I participated in the depart-

12

ment where

I worked but to find out as much as possible what can!

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be valuable to the American intelligence and I had come with

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some luggage.

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Mrs. Burke. All right, well, during the time that you were

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talking to them about what your salary would be, the circum-

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stances of your defection, and I assume you told them what your

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rank was, some of the things you worked on --

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

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Mrs. Burke. -- did you tell them you worked on the

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Oswald file?

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Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember, I can mention. I do not

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remember, honestly.

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Mrs. Burke. Did you discuss Oswald at all with them during!

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"that period?

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Mr. Nosenko. I must, sure, mentioned this fact because,

no, it happened such a thing.

I must mention. But I do not

remember.

I cannot tell you what questions were, what my

answers were.

Mrs. Burke. Did you tell them that the Soviet Union thought

that Oswald may have been a United States agent?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I certainly -- it would be -- anyone

treated. Oswald, or anyone from the United States who

come to live

on his own decided to defect, or they contacted

him before, they will still will be suspected in a possibility

that he is an agent of American intelligence, and also this fact.

Mrs. Burke.

And

is this the reason that you gave him why

he was not allowed to remain in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Nosenko. The reason was that they didn't want him to

stay because, KGB, because they didn't consider him an interest-

ing target, an interesting person who has valuable information!

Mrs. Burke. I know that. In fact, I remember you

saying something about a person would only be interesting under

certain circumstances, one of which would be if they came in as

a

tourist and they applied a very short time before they arrived.:

Mr. Nosenko. Oh no.

Mrs. Burke.

And they were an add on to, for instance,

the tour.

Mr.

Nosenko. Right. Right.

Mrs. Burke. Now, from what that report shows, it shows that

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Oswald received his visa in two days to come to the Soviet

Union.

So he would be automatically suspect, and he would be

automatically what you would call an interesting person.

Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no. In this case, you see, Oswald

even didn't receive a visa in United States; he received it

passing through Europe.

Mrs. Burke.

Through Helsinki?

Mr. Nosenko. Right, in Finland, where it's process was

easier than it will be in the United States. He simply bought

tour and he received, managed to receive visa.

Mrs. Burke. Let me just ask one other.: thing.

Did you tell them any of your, aside from the ideological,

why you wanted to defect? For instance, did you tell them

anything about this promotion you thought you had when you went

to, was it, Gorki?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mrs. Burke. But then you --

Mr. Nosenko. No, I didn't tell them. I simply said that

my position, because with me, it was documented, I lied. I

said my position was Lieutenant Colonel. It wasn't true. It

was false statement. The same false statement was concerning

recall telegram when I wanted to push the defection process.

Mrs. Burke. My time is up. May I just ask one

question? Were you upset when you didn't get your promotion

"after they had --

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Mr. Nosenko.

No, no ma'am. I still didn't receive it.

It was sent on signature. You see, they are signing, not

immediately when they are received. Personnel Directorate

gather in from all over the. Soviet: Union, from all KGBs and

comment on signature to the Chairman, twice, three times a

year.

They

were simply gathering in and didn't get enough

materials. I do not know. Maybe it was signed in January. But

up to my leaving, nobody informed me that it was signed.

didn't -- wasn't rejected.

The Chairman. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.

Mr. Dodd?

Mr. Dodd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder if you might let me ask you -- let me start back

here, very quickly. One of the very first questions you

were

asked last night by Mr. Klein, was the way Mr. Klein worded

the question, and I will ask you to expound on it if it is a

correct recall on my part.

Mr. Klein asked you or stated that you arranged for your

transfer to the American section of the KGB. He used the words

you arranged for your transfer to that section. Is that an

accurate statement? Did you want to be in that section? Did you

specifically ask to be in that section?

Mr. Nosenko. No, it wasn't accurate, it wasn't right.

Arrangement was done in work form. I was working after finishing

¡Institute in GRU, Navy Intelligence, and being in 1952 New

Year,

127A

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in Moscow on New Year on a short leave, I was in company where

it was one of my friends with whom I studied at the Institute.

He worked in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. But his father-

in-law was high ranked General of MGB,. in those years was

called KGB, and he asked me what I am doing, this General.

I said that I am working for the Navy Intelligence, GRU.

Do you like this work?

I said no, because I am not using what I received

education.

Would you like to work in MGB?

I said, if it will be with the use of my disciplines

which I studied at

the Institute, why not? That is all. And

in March after death of Stalin this general was appointed the

First Deputy Minister of MGB of Beria. He remembered this

conversation and several days after death of Stalin I was recalled

to MGB which was called MVD in this period of time, in March

of

'53, and was assigned to Second Chief Directorate. This is what

true statement.

Mr. Dodd. When you sent to the safe house or whatever it

was in Geneva, in 1964, by your own admission you lied to the

agent there in that you stated you had received a telegram

issuing your recall back to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

MI. Dodd.

Therefore, it was that important that they

accept you immediately.

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Did you show anyone a telegram?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, no, "sir. There wasn't any telegram.

Mr. Dodd. Did they ask for a telegram?

Mr. Nosenko. No, but, sir, what happened, I started to

meet them in January, had passed three, four, five, six, seven

days. I am afraid of that any moment my Chief of the Second

Chief Directorate will be returning from France.

Mr. Dodd. I didn't ask you that, Mr. Nosenko. My question

to you

is, were you asked whether or not you had a copy of

the telegram that you had received from the Soviet Union?

Mr • Nosenko.

And I-- if I was even asked I couldn't

give them because I cannot take it. It would be secret

cable.

Mr. Dodd. You have answered my question.

You stated last night that -- and this might have been a

supposition on your part, but I am curious about it - you stated

that it was your feeling that the intelligence community in

this country considered you a dispatched agent in 1962.

Is

that something that you felt in 1962?

Mr. Nosenko. No. It's -

Mr. Dodd. A reflection back?

Mr. Nosenko. A reflection back.

No, no,

sir.

Mr. Dodd. You, by your own statement, again have received

some very rough treatment, inhuman treatment, to use your words.

living under spartan conditions, and I am sort of brushing over

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→=

this very quickly, between 1964 and 1969. Certainly you

couldn't have been very pleased with the way you were being

treated by a country that you had defected to and offered to

give information to. So for a period of that '64, to '69,

fIve

years, you went through a rather rough period in your life?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Dodd. Why did you

go to work for somebody who treated

you like that?

MI. Nosenko. Sir, I, even was five year there, I didn't

consider that it was decision of the whole CIA. I didn't

consider that. - I didn't blame the whole CIA because it

wasn't the question decided by the whole Agency. It was

decided question by several persons who were I consider simply

in this period of time sick, mentally sick, not ill, but

were simply in fear, in scare, in mania as if KGB penetrated

everything.

Mr. Dodd. Is it your statement to me that for five

years, while you were incarcerated in almost solitary confine-

ment, that you thought that this was the individual acts of a

couple of employees of this Agency?.

Mr. Nosenko. Not employees.

Mr. Dod.

Without the approval of the very highest

authority in this Agency?

Mr. Nosenko.

Sir, I have seen Chief of Soviet Russia

Division, Mr. David Murphy. He was a high ranking man. It was

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his decision,.

decision of Mr. Angleton, decision of MI.

Murphy, and when they are coming to Director, and I know,

from

my life, they can report in the way how they will report it, and

the Director will accept because they are responsible people,

they are sitting in this place. He is not going into details,

he is not going and studying, he is not

going himself visiting.

The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mr. Sawyer?

Mr. Sawyer. First, have you received any compensation

for the period during: which you were held in jail?

Mr. Nosenko. I received in several

years later, I put

the question, I want to be paid for every year which I was

unlawfully. arrest, the amount of money which we have agreed,

with taken taxes and whatever American citizens are paying.

Mr. Sawyer. Did you

I get that?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, and on this sum of money I bought

the house.

Mr. Sawyer. I see.

I will tell you what bothers me about your testimony, very

frankly. You stated that they would be very interested in a

member of the American intelligence community that they could

even compel to defect. Here you had a willing defector, a guy

who said that undoubtedly that he didn't like America, and

that he did like Russia, and he wants to defect, and nobody

even interrogates him, according to you, as to what exposure or

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experience he had. He might have worked in the missile silos,

he might have done anything, but nobody asked him, and that he

lives there for a

period of, a long period of time. Here is a

guy that is totally willing to talk.. It is not like approaching

somebody who doesn't want to talk to you

I or that might not want

to

talk to you. And here is a fellow who was a radar operator,

experienced to some degree, and I don't know to what degree,

but apparently the Russians don't know to what degree either,

because nobody asked him,

but they didn't ask him even about that, and it is very rare

to have one come.

I have listened to Radio Free Cuba, where they air all

kinds of propaganda, and this

guy would have been certainly

good for propaganda when he loved Russia and hated

the United

States. And I just, with those circumstances, I very frankly

find it almost impossible to believe that they did not

thoroughly interrogate him at least.

Mr. Nosenko. They never considered him an interesting

target. It was known that he served in Marine Corps.

Mr. Sawyer. What I am getting at, how did they know

whether he was an interesting target when they never even

asked

Mr. Nosenko. They judging by what they know about him

what in questionnaire he filled and plus what they found out

from interpreter on him. He said to interpreter, he served

in Marine Corps, he finished his years of service.

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Mr. Sawyer..

But he might have been a cryptographer in the

Marine Corps. He might have been as an enlisted man, he

might have been a cryptographer and know all our codes and

code methodology that might help break codes and that sort of

thing, but nobody ever asked him. That is what I don't under-

stand.

And I can't believe it, very frankly.

Mr. Nosenko. I understand, sir, but I am telling you he

wasn't considered interesting target, and --

Mr. Sawyer. But they didn't have any facts to know

whether he was interesting, and

here is a

guy that wants to

talk to them.

Mr. Nosenko. But the judgment made on each person to work

actively against him on the basis of his questionnaire. If

in questionnaire will be said he is, let's say, professor,

teacher, let's say he is working for the

government, any

department, but for the Federal Government, or he is an officer,

sure, on him will be paid attention.

Mr. Sawyer. Well, all right, we can drop that for a

minute.

But now, he

got a visa in two days in Finland. I happen

to have been in Finland four years ago and wantea to

get a

visa, a sort of a last minute decision, to go to Leningrad, andi

was told there is a minimum of 30 days before you can

get a

visa.

Now, to issue him a visa in two days for Russia, that

is very unusual, apparently, so they must have had some

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interest in getting him there.

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, what I know, there wasn't any interest

to

get him. He managed to get this visa.

Mr. Sawyer. All right.

The other thing I am curious about is when they interrogated

you so carefully here, why someone like Oswald, a known defector

and who could well have been now a Russian intelligence agent,

comes back to the country, apparently CIA : Or FBI, or nobody

paid a bit of attention to him, andilet him wander around the

country with a Russian wife at will.

I have used up my time.

The Chairman:

Okay.

The time of the

gentleman has

expired.

Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Nosenko, as I piece it together, there are four

possibilities for this Committee to believe. Let me sketch

out what those possibilities are.

One, that you told the truth in 1964, but you are now

misleading this Committee.

Two, that you told an untruth in 1964, basically your

statements in 1964 were not true, but you are telling the truth

now.

Three, that in fact you were dispatched here by the KGB,

or the Soviet Government, because of apparent but unreal

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connections

between the Soviets and Oswald and the assassination

of President Kennedy. Obviously the USSR would need this for

obvious reasons.

They would badly need this for all sorts of

international reasons.

And finally, the fourth option is that you were dispatched

here by the Soviet Government and the KGB because there was an

actual connection between the KGB and the assassinationnof:

President Kennedy•

These are the items which I have picked up in the last

two days that would tend to lead some people to believe the

last of the four, of at least the third

to the last of the four,

either that the KGB dispatched you here because they needed it

for political reasons, though they were: not involved, or they

dispatched you here because in fact they did collaborate with

Oswald.

First, Oswald goes to Russia. You say he is rejected,

but

they

grant him a pension, however small:

Second, they grant him the pleasures of a hunting club,

even though you said earlier he was mentally unbalanced, and

you

are allowing him to use a gun.

Three, they allowed him to marry in Russia.

Four, they gave him a job.

Now, in -- not talking about the time when you were

under stress and incarcerated, but just talking about the two

months prior to that -- the FBI questioning, and the prearrest

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story makes no sense.

The rejection of Oswald's offer to defect makes absolutely

no sense to me.

Mr. Sawyer has just pursued that momentarily. I think that

can be rejected by us, by reasonable people prima facie. I see

no reason to accept that part of your story whatsoever.

The exposition, taking you off to worry about the exposi

tion, and so forth, was demonstrated a fraud.

No reprisals against your family:. Nobody was working

against Oswald, you said, yet later on you said you had seven

to eight large files, you only read the first portion of one

file.

You said no KGB ever talked to Oswald regarding

letting him defect. The reason you gave us for that was that he

slashed his wrists and you concluded he was unstable. Yet prior

to that discovery of his instability, you granted him a visa

in two days. and he asked to be permitted to defect prior to

slashing his wrists, and therefore you had to make the decision

prior to slashing his writs, prior to knowing that he slashed

his wrist, that you were going to reject him. That doesn't

hold water either.

Finally, you said in your testimony American defection was

very rare. All the more reason, if it only happens once every

year or a couple of times a year, or three times between

'56

and '59, it is totally incredible to me that he would not have

been interrogated.

No reasonable person can believe that story

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You said he was not interesting, you were not interested

in him, the KGB rejected him. Despite that, you were "recruiting

right and left all kinds of people to assist in the espionage

operation. "

Now, all of these things, Mr. Nosenko, leads me to be

very, very disturbed by your story because it simply just on the

face of what you told us last night and tonight, can't possibly

be true.

In the first place, you remember too much now. You remember

too much in the way of details after 15 years. Therefore, I ..

have

great difficulty accepting any of your story.

We as a Committee of the United States

Congress are charged

with

trying to assess what actually happened in the assassination

of President Kennedy. That is the central"story. You have not

helped us very much. You have confused the issue. In fact,

by your testimony you have led at least this member to wonder

whether or not you are still working with the KGB.

The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired..

I will permit the witness to answer.

Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Congressman said his opinion. Do you

ask me any question?

Mr. Fithian. I would just like to have you tell me why I

shouldn't believe that you were dispatched here by the KGB,

in the light of just the points I am making, in the light of

the enormous differences, not in the CIA interrogation under

20x028

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duress, but in the earlier period when you were not under that

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kind of duress. It doesn't wash with me.

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The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if you want me to defend myself,

can

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say only one thing. I never done from the first day in the

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United States anything directed against this country. I tried

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before I has come, when I contacted '62 the CIA, and has come

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in '64, I tried to get as much as possible information.. I

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am the source who told concerning existence of microphones in

10

American embassy in Moscow. I am the man who have

given, I

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don't know , 300 cases --

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Mr. Fithian. We are only concerned -

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•. The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.

14

Mr. Edgar.

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Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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It is very hard to follow Mr. Fithian's comments because

.17

I

would like to shift gears a little bit.

But you indicated

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to our Chairman that you now act as a consultant to the CIA.

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Is that your only job?

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Mr. Nosenko. It is the only job.

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Mr. Edgar. In the course of acting as consultant to the

22

"CIA, do you have access to talking with CIA employees from time

to time who contact you and who assist you and protect you and

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give you some of the direction for your consulting?

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Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

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Mr. Edgar. Have you ever been in a conversation with any

of the agents.of the CIA about who might have been responsible

for having you detained on April 4th, -=00a:

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Edgar. -- 1964.

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Edgar. You indicated earlier you thought it was

man

by the name of Murphy.

Mr. Nosenko. Murphy, Chief of Soviet, former Chief of

Suviet Russian Division, and Chief of Counterintelligence,

former Chief of Counterintelligence of the. CIA Mr. Angleton

because it cannot without him be decided.

Mr. Edgar. Do you know of any other KGB agents or other

defectors who were held in those very same conditions?

Mr. Nosenko. No, I do not know.

Mr. Edgar. Were there any other prisoners held nearby.

that you could hear or --

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I was in solitary absolutely

confinement, no prisoner, nobody I could see.

Mr. Edgar. Yet you are still willing to be a consultant

to the CIA?

Mr. Nosenko. I am -- no. Sir, I am consultant only on

the base, on my knowledge what I know about counterintelligence

work of the KGB.

Mr. Edgar. Well, you lave suggested to the Committeeithat

your statements given to the CIA in 1964 cannot be considered

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reliable because the statements were given under duress, and

prior to our recess a few moments ago you indicated that you

felt that the tapes and the FBI and the CIA interrogations of

'64, '65, and '66 should

not be considered as reliable

statements.

Is that not correct?

: Mr. Nosenko. Yes, because I considered the whole arrest

was unlawful, without due process of law, illegal arrest,

what was the finding

as unlawful by Rockefeller Commission.

Mr. Edgar. Thank you.

You were held under those spartan conditions and you

indicated that those

statements would have to be unreliable.

Now, I have three specific questions, then, to ask you.

Have you ever told the CIA that these statements could

not be considered reliable?

Mr. Nosenko. Sure, when we started, they change the

situation, they moved me from spartan conditions, started to

talk with me as a human being, to treat me as a human being.

Mr. Edgar. Did you go on a point by point correction of

any of those statements you previously made?

Mr. Nosenko. It wasn't in the form of simply returning

to document, it was case by case, whatever concerns me, my

biography, my work, whatever cases I knew, whatever cases I

was involved, all questions were raised by 20, 30 times each

case, when it was reevaluation of all information given by me.

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MI. Edgar. And it is your testimony that after 1967, '68,

when those interrogations took place, you gave accurate,

truthful statements?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, whatever and how good I recollect,

at the best.

MI. Edgar. And those statements of '67-'68 should be

considered by this Committee as the absolute truth?:

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Edgar. And nothing but the truth.

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, yes, sir.

Mr: Edgar. And it is clear to you that all the questions

that were raised about Oswald were also raised in 1967 and

'68?

Mr. Nosenko. Everything was raised in this period.

Mx. Edgar. If, then, this Committee discovers inconsis-

tencies in your statements that you made in 1967 and '68,

after your incarceration and the illegal period that you

talk about, if we find inconsistencies between that statement

and the statements you gave us last night and tonight, which

should we believe?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if -- you must believe -- not you must

it is up to you what you believe. But, sir, let's say was

read

I to me by Mr. Klein a question, that I said when I said concerning

Oswald, I did not mention physical surveillance. It is a big

operation. It is nothing big in the KGB to put under surveil-

lance Soviet or foreigner, or to control telephone conversations

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or correspondence. I could maybe something miss, you see,

when I mentioning. I do not have such a brilliant, brilliant

mind that immediately like photographic memory, immediatelÿ:

return word and word. I simply was describing that it wasn't

active work, that there wasn't planned recruitment, there

wasn't planned approachment, contact. There was type of

passive work which is called in KGB to watch him and what is it,

agents, control of correspondence, and explaining this, I

simply, I could miss that he was under surveillance.

You can return to this and tell me, uh-huh, you told in '67

you didn't mention that he was under surveillance. It is not

a contradiction.

The Chairman.

The time of the

gentleman has expired.

Mr. Nosenko, in reply to Mr. Sawyer's question, you

indicated you were paid for the period of time that you were

under arrest, that it was a lump sum payment I suppose?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

=--

The Chairman. What amount of money was that?

Mr. Nosenko. Something about, oh, about $80, 000.

The Chairman. About $80,000?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

The Chairman. Any other sum in addition to that were

"you paid?

Mr. Nosenko. I think I received about $15,000 or $20,000

"when I started on my own to live, to buy furniture. I received,

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yes, in the beginning, in '69, in April. But this lump I

receivedad in '70, '71. '71.

The Chairman. So that the record is clear, you received

$80,000 for the period of time you were under arrest.

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

The Chairman. In order to get started again, you vere

given an

additional $15,000, and that was in 1969.

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

The Chairman. Since 1969, to the present time, you have

received: $35,000 --

Mr. Nosenko.

No, no, no, sir.

The Chairman. Would you -

Mr. Nosenko. They started, when they released me they

started to pay me in the beginning $16, 000. Then they raised

each year, $2000, two and a half thousand were raises. I only

received $35,000 this year, '78, from October of '77, approxi-

mately.

The Chairman. From October '77 to the present time you

received $35,000.

Mr. Nosenko.

Right.

The Chairman. Can you give us some indication of how many

days you have worked during 1978?

Mr. Nosenko. Well, I am working at home besides coming

here when they needme, at least twice a month,cand spending

a

week, approximately, besides traveling when they are

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sending me the last few years abroad to talk with friendly

I am also working at home on my own.

I

am studying Soviet periodicals, Soviet magazines, Soviet

newspapers.

I am making certain researches, I am trying not to

lose

what is going on, what changes taking place in policy.

The Chairman. Would it be fair to say that you sort of

set your time and that no one else sets your time?

Mr. Nosenko. When I am

out of this area, yes, at home,

I am myself setting time.

The Chairman. And during the last year, how many weeks

would you say you have spent here at the Agency?

Mr. Nosenko. Not at the Agency. They are meeting me in

other places. I am very rare visiting this place, only if they

invite me for a lecture or about KGB counterintelligence.

But

I am meeting them when I am in this area, under certain

conditions, in certain places where they need me.

Well, one monthi twice I am coming. Let's say I am

spending about 12, 13 days a month here, it can be in some

cases seven, eight days a month, but in main the last period

of time I am coming, the last years, I am coming almost

twice a month.

The Chairman. For how long?

Mr. Nosenko.

For a week, five, six days.

The Chairamn. My time has expired.

Mr. Preyer?

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110

Mr. Preyer. Mr. Nosenko, your testimony has been considered

major piece of evidence, and was so considered by the Warren

Commission

as rebutting any Russian connection with the assassi-

nation of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I think the key part of your

testimony that we are concerned with, not so much the question

about any inconsistencies in it, but are you right on the big

question, namely, wasLee Harvey Oswald a KGB agent?

I want to mention, I have been a little surprised by your

testimony, bythe.

gaps in your knowledge of Oswald, and really

how little you knew about him. For example, when he went to

Minsk, he was tranferred out of your oversight, I take it, and

I understood

you, you did not know he was married until

later on, and did not know he had

gone back to the united

States.

Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Congressman, if I was staying and

working '60 and '61 period in the same Seventh Department which

sent file on Oswald in Minsk, I would know, but I was working

in First American Department.

Mr. Preyer. Right. Now, I am not questioning you about.

|that.

The question I wonder, that that brings to my mind

is.

if Oswald-had been a KGB agent, are you certain you would have

known it? In other words, if you didn't even know he was

married, didn't even

know he had

gone to the United States,

couldn't he have been a KGB agent in that period without your

knowledge, or are you certain --

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Mr. Nosenko..

No, I couldn't, you are absolutely right, I

couldn't know.

But in '63 when happened assassination of

the President, when it was mentioned that Oswald shot the

President, when it start, demanded the file back from Minsk;

when started conversation with Minsk, started in KGB investi-

gation, detailed approach. This is what --

Mr. Preyer. So you convinced that seeing the first

section

Mr. Nosenko. Seeing the first section in which the most

important material in the whole file will be this in first

section of the first volume.

Mr. Preyer. Were the rest of the sections of that file,

incidentally, wire - telephone taps?

Mr. Nosenko. It will be information from agents in

second part. In third part will be from telephone conversa-

tions, from surveillance. In fourth part, photocopies of letters,

different mail, when they checking Soviet connections, soviet

friends of Oswald.

MI. Preyer. Well, on this question of your knowledge

of Oswald and being in position to know about him, you knew about

the cablegram from Mexico yet you did not know he had gone back

to the United States. Is that because you had moved to -

Mr. Nosenko. Again, I returned in Seventh Department

and I was working '62, '63, up to '64 in Seventh Department

and the cablegram has come in Seventh Department. Seventh

Department was started against Oswald in '59.

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Mr. Preyer.

Have you read a lot about the Oswald case

in recent years?

Mr. Nosenko.

Well, I read several books, what appeared.

I only didn't read the last book which was written about Marina

Oswald by Mrs. Priscilla Johnson. Why?

Because I knew

that I would appear here, that the staff of your -- your

staff will be talking with me. ' I didn't wanted something to

get -- I can, you know, mix what I knew and something to use

what I got from the book.

Mr. Preyer. I just wondered if you had read about the

Mexican cable, and perhaps through the years may have been --

Mr. Nosenko. No, I never have seen that it was mentioned

Mexican cable. I have seen that he visited Mexico, in Mexico

visited Soviet and Cuban embassies. This I have seen in books,

this fact.

Mr. Preyer. If I have got one more moment, Mr. Chairman,

to change the subject, one of the things that struck me is

that when you defected, as Mrs. Burke mentioned, in Geneva,

in 1964, very shortly after the Kennedy Assassination, I get

the impression that the CIA or American

forces to whom you

defected, did not have much to say about the assassination or

was not

Mr. Nosenko. They are -- I mentioned must be Oswald, the

asked.

But they were asking different, whatever cases I can

immediately give them, names, when recruited, his position,

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from what country, this they were interested, as much as possible

to take this type of information. They asked me about oswald.

I told

them what I knew.

The Chairman The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mr. Devine.

Mr. Devine.. I don't want to know where you live, but

do you reside in the

' general area of the nation's capital?

Mr. Nosenko. I was living in this area up to 19 -- middle

of 1973, but FBI gentlemen -- I didn't mention, I also meeting

FBI people when I am here, not only CIA, but they are not paying

me.anything. FBI people inform me that they have information

that KGB trying to locate me.. Then it happened in the area

where I was living in Maryland up to 1973, I was in a

shopping center, and on me was coming a Soviet from KGB. I knew

his face, and this whole -- I immediately reported this and

we decided that for me better to move from the area where

Soviet diplomats, KGB officer working under cover of diplomats

are freely traveling and can spot me.

Mr. Devine. That person didn't recognize you?

Mr. Nosenko. I, immediately turned and went, turned my back

and went in another direction.

Mr. Devine. Have you been contacted or in touch with

anyone from the Soviet Embassy here in Washignton?

Mr. Nosenko. Only in 1964, the Soviet Embassy in

Washington: demanded to see me after defection.:

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Mr. Devine. Did you see them?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, in the State Department, in presence

of American diplomats, I have seen for five, say seven

minutes, Consul from Soviet Embassy and interpreter, another

diplomat.

Mr. Devine.

What did they want with you?

Mr. Nosenko. They ask me how could I do it, and do I

understand the importance of this thing, that I defected from

the country, and I said, gentlemen, nobody pushed me on this

question, it is absolutely my own decision, and decision of free

will, which I made long ago, and without any return. Then they

told me now we know how to treat you, and what do you think

about your soviet citizenship.

I said, it's automatically, I am rejecting it. I do

i not

need. And on this I finished conversation.

Mr. Devine. They made no threats of reprisals against

your family back there?

Mr. Nosenko. No, no. They later only, Mr. Congressman,

they later sent two letters, one from wife and another from

my mother.

These letters were delivered by them. They visited

American embassy in Moscow and had left these two letters.

"These letters were sent by American embassy in Moscow to

State Department, State Department had given to CIA, CIA had

given me these letters. I answered one short note that my

[decision is final, decision ideological and in spite of all

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my love to the family, and in spite of my respect to the

memory of the father, I can repeat that if he was alive I would

also would do the same, that is all.

Mr. Devine.

Getting back to one of Mr. Stoke's questions

about the amount of money paid to you for your years of

incarceration, the fact that they gave you $15,000 or $20,000

which you used for furniture and so forth, were there any

strings tied to either of those funds, the $80,000 or the subset

quent amount?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, no.

Mr. Devine. That you would not contact the press or

anybody else about this?

Mr. Nosenko. No, it never was

mentioned, never.

Mr. Devine. No strings attached?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Devine. Finally, do you have any knowledge of any...

connection with Oswald and the assassination of President

Kennedy?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.

Mr. Devine.

From your connections in the KGB at that time?

Mr. Nosenko.

Whatever I said, nothing more. I do not

know anything.

The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mrs. Burke.

Mrs. Burke. I have just a few random questions. You

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mentioned Priscilla Johnson's book.: Did you by any. chance

while you were working in the 'American tourist area, did you

have any occasion to investigate her coming to Russia or did

she come during any of that time as a student?

Mr. Nosenko. Priscilla Johnson?

Mrs. Burke. Yes.

Mr. Nosenko. Why, yes, her name, she was a correspondent

in Moscow working, and KGB didn't like her dispatches and they

made very, very rude operations against her. They --

Mrs. Burke.

What did they do.

Mr. Nosenko. Hih?

Mrs. Burke.

What did they do to her?

MI. Nosenko. Well, they wanted to get rid of her from the

Soviet Union. They didn't see possibility to recruit her.

They

didn't see any possibility to find or to create compromising

situation. They didn't like her dispatches which they were

anti-Soviet. Then they decided to get rid of her, and they

made such an operation in restaurant where she had dinner in

evening. They put drugs in her liquor, which she was drinking,

wine: or vodka or whatever it would be, and she was absolutely

drunk. And she was delivered in local regional, one of the

regional little -- it's not clinic, it is where they deliver

drunks to spend night. And they put her there and made photo

pictures of her being drunk and other women drunk laying there

and published an article and put even a picture. And surely

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she was immediately recalled by her agency or her newspapers

for

which she was working.

Mrs. Burke. Do you think that is the wrong Priscilla

Johnson?

Mr. Edgar. If the gentlewoman would yield, are you sure

that you are talking about the same? person?

Mr. Nosenko. Priscilla Johnson, yes, this correspondent,

yes.

Mrs. Burke. Let me ask you one other question.

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When she was there, did she interview Oswald?

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Mr. Nosenko. I know it is now reading here the books.

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didn't know that she interviewed. I only found out it with

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living in the United States, with reading books.

Mrs. Burke. That she

interviewed him. That didn't show

•15 " in your file?

Mr. Nosenko. I didn't read her book -- this is what in

17 some other books mentioned that she had interviewed him.

18

Mrs. Burke. Let me ask again about Oswald in Minsk, and

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first of all, can American tourists go to Minsk easily?

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Mr. Nosenko. Minsk is open city, yes.

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Mrs. Burke. It is an open city now. Was it an open

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city then?

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Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

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Mrs. Burke. And when he was there, of course, I realize

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that you don't know and you did not keep up with what he was

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doing there, but in reading that file, in the first few

pages or anything, did you notice anything in terms of his

contacts

with

Americans, or did you notice anything at all

that was extrardoinary about him?

Mr. Nosenko. No, there wasn't.

For the whole his period

of time there wasn't found any" indication on suspicion,

suspicious meetings or anything suspicion concerning his contacts

with Americans.

Mrs. Burke. Let me -- As I understand it, it was fairly

routine that everyone'

s phone would be tapped, so that that

was not --

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mrs. Burke. - your information that that would be

| nothing unusual.

You know, there is one thing that is bothering me, and

that is the inconsistency and the greater detail that is present

today than in your earlier statements.

Could you give us

an explanation of why there is more de-

tail today?

For instance, in your earlier statements I noticed you

refer to the interpreter as a tourist, the tourist guide, as.:

just a tourist

guide or an interpreter? Today you referred

by name to that person. And again, the two psychiatrists --

Mr. Nosenko. I don't know even now name of this inter-

preter. I do not remember name.

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Mrs. Burke. I see.

I thought -

Mr. Nosenko. Interpreter, I never mentioned.

Mrs. Burke. You never mentioned the interpreter?

Mr. Nosenko. No. I do not remember her name.

Mrs. Burke. It was just this officer Rastrusin?

Mr. Nosenko. Officer, yes.

Mrs. Burke. He was -- but he was the one that found

wasn't he the one that found Oswald?

Mr.

Nosenko. No, this is the officer who reported about

him.

Mrs. Burke.

He reported it, but he didn't find him?

Mr. Nosenko. No, no, interpreter found him with

administration of the hotel where Oswald was staying.

Mrs. Burke. Oh, I see.

Mr. Nosenko. You see, interpreter has come in the

morning to

take him or has come to take him

to city,

to show

him,

as interpreter on a guide, on a tour. And she was waiting

about 20, 25, 30 minutes and was concerned.

The Chairman.

Time is up. One more.

Mrs. Burke. All right, just one more question.

When Oswald arrived, then, he didn't speak very much

Russian, is that right?

Mr. Nosenko. No. Ididn't hear that he spoke in Russian.

Mrs. Burke. I see. Were there any notations at all in the

file - what is your understanding of his fluency in Russian

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during the time of his stay?

Mr. Nosenko.

Well, during time of his stay surely he

started

a little bit to talk, but it wasn't very, it wasn't

good Russian. It wasn't even --

The Chairman. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.

Mrs. Burke. Thank you.

The Chairman.. Mr. Dodd.

Mr. Doad.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to

just pick up on that line of questioning,

if I could, with you, Mr. Nosenko.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, Oswald,

you were aware of Oswald's desire to defect. There was a

decision, and in fact he was informed through his Intourist

guide that his request had been rejected.

Is that correctsso. fai?'

Mr. Nosenko. Is in

general, but it wasn't in this ways

told to him. It was in so-called, you know, soft manner. It

was

explained to him by through Intourist --

Mr. Dodd. That he would have to

go through his embassy?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, that Intourist not dealing with this

question.

He must go through this, this, this procedures.

Mr. Dodd. Okay.

Now, you, at the time of this, of Oswald's request, you

were working in the Seventh Department of the Second Directorate

which was involved with tourism?

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Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Dodd.

Okay. Could you tell me what would be the

normal operating procedures within the Soviet Union if a

tourist were involved, say, in a car accident with an Intourist

guide.

Say a Frenchman was involved in a car accident. Assuming

it was not his fault, someone hit him, what happens? Do

they notify immediately the French Embassy, what steps do they

take in order to deal with that individual?

Mr. Nosenko. I would assume, sir, that he will be,

sure, he immediately will be taken inpolyclinic, will be informed

his embassy•

Mr. "Dodd.

Those kind of steps.

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Dodd. If you had made a decision thatiOswald should

not be accepted in the Soviet Union, and if you find him in

his room with his wrist slit, why don't you then contact the

American Embassy and notify them that you have an American on

your hands who just tried to kill himself?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, he wasn't an employee of American

embassy.

Mr. Dodd. He was a

tourist, though.

Mr. Nosenko. A tourist.

Mr •

Dodd. And I just asked you about a Frenchman who might

be a tourist and get in a car accident, and you said you would

take him to the hospital, you would notify the embassy. Why

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don't you take Mr.

Oswald to the hospital and notify the

American embassy?

Mr. Nosenko. Nobody knew that he would cut wrist.

Mr. Dodd. No, but you found him with his wrist cut.

Mr. Nosenko. Right. He was delivered in hospital

Mr. Dodd. Why didn't you notify the American embassy?

Mr. Nosenko. He wasn't dying, he wasn't serious, they

made transfusion and put stitches. It is -- I am telling what

I think why it was.

Mr. Dodd. You understand my problem here. You have

got

someone who you don't want to accept him. You have already

made a decision that he shouldn't be allowed to defect. You

walk into his room and find him with his wrist slit, it would

seem to me that this guy has already indicated just by that act

alone that he is not playing with a full deck of cards,

and

you decide then that you are going to accept him because you

are worried that it might cause some embarrassment after Camp

David.

Mr. Nosenko. No.

But the question to inform the Embassy,

it must be passing through such stage. Intourist itself cannot

contact the American Embassy•

Mr. Dodd. No, obviously.

Mr. Nosenko. No. They must contact their Minister of

Foreign Trade which in its turn putting question to Ministry of

Foreign Affairs, and Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Soviet

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Union can contact the embassy.

Mr.

Dold. Let me jump onto something else quickly in the

time we've got.

You knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes:

Mr. Dodd. You knew by your answer to Mrs. Burke's question

a minute ago that Oswald had

a student's knowledge of Russian?

Mr. Nosenko, when he was living in Minsk, not before,

before he has come.

No.

Mr. Dodd. You didn't know that?

Mr. Nosenko. No, when he was living in Minsk, when he

was in daily contact with Soviets working at the plant and

having friends.

Mr. Dodd.

Did you know that he had been a student of

Marxism?

Mr. Nosenko. No.

Mr. Dodd. Did you know that he had given the u.s.

embassy his notice to defect?

Mr. Nosenko.

No. I know that he visited embassy.

and

after was, he was told that he will be allowed to stay, after,

this.

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Mr. Dodd. You were not aware at that time that he con-

tacted through Intourist and eventually your office and

made

it known that he intended to defect or wanted to defect, you

were not aware or your department was not aware that he had

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already notified the American embassy that he intended to

defect?

Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no, sir.

Mr. Dodd. You were not aware of that.

Mr. Nosenko. No.

He wasn't under surveillance..

We

didn't know. When he was going alone without interpter, we

didn't know.

Mr. Dodd. I didn't ask you how you know. I just asked

you whether of not -- he didn't tell you that?

, Mr. Nosenko. No. Nobody from KGB talked with him.:

The Chairman. The time of the

gentleman has expired.

Mr. Sawyer?

Mr. Sawyer.

When Congressman Devine asked you how you

knew your family was okay of that they hadn't invoked any

reprisals, I didn't

get the answer.

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I asked Mr. Solie in '69, '70, once

asked, anything about my family?

Mr. Sawyer. Mr. who?

Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Bruce Solie, CIA officer who was in

contact with me, '69, '70. He answered me that they are all

right, everything okay. But he didn't went in any detail

and I never returned more to this question. But there is another

point, sir. Besides the father's position, after he died, she

was receiving,

she received pension, and besides that,. for

the years -

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Mr. Sawyer.

How did you know she died?

Mr. Nosenko. Father died, I said. Father died in 1956.

After father's

death she received a pension.

MI. Sawyer. I understand. You went through that before.

I noticed here though, when he slashed his wrist, the

psychiatric examination report here by the doctor says the

patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian,

so he must have spoken Russian, You know, to whatever degree,

when he went there. I thought you said you were always

interested in someone who can speak Russian or has studied

anything Russian.

Mx. Nosenko. Who specializes in any field of Russia,

who will be working for the United States government.

Mr. Sawyer. But here

is a guy at that time, when he first

came

there, within a matter of days after, the doctor says

the

patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian.

Mr. Nosenko: Sir-i

Mr. Sawyer. That would have keyed interest right there,

wouldn't it?

Mr. Nosenko.

sir, if ve knew that he studied in Columbia

University, in Yale University

Mr. Sawyer. Well, it says right --

Mr. Nosenko. In Russian Institute.

Mr. Sawyer. It says on the report, this was on the 21st

or the 23rd or 25th of October, a week after he arrived, it

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says the patient apparently understands the questions asked

in Russian. So you knew he spoke Russian at that time. And yet

that was one of your criteria.

Mr. Nosenko Well, sir -t cordono

Mr. Sawyer. Something else I am a little curious about.

Apparently, coming here, wanting to defect, wanting to leave

America, wanting Russia, here is a guy that if he didn't

know anything would be apparently capable of going back to the

United States at the behest of KGB

in areas of the country that

Russian diplomats and so forth, KGB people weren't. allowed to

and dig up information for them and come back. Here is a

guy

you didn't have to threaten, he volunteers. And it seems strange

you wouldn't talk to him or be interested in him just from that

point of view.

And how -- and another thing that greatly bothers me,

how did you know

that he, being in the Marines, you knew that,

but how did you know he wasn't a cryptographer or how did

you know he wasn't stationed in the Office of the Joint Chiefs

of Staff as a

guard or as a messenger or a clerk, or that he

worked with U-2s, which apparently he did. Why would the KGB

not at least

find these things out, with a guy that wants to

90

to Russia, wants to be a Russian?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I only can repeat you, when on him was

received the first information about his arrival, checkup was

made on him.

There wasn't any existing material in KGB, any

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knowledge about him.

He never was before in the Soviet Union.

In judging by the question --

Mr. Sawyer.

why weren't they asking, why wouldn't they

ask, that's the question. Why wouldn't they ask?

Mr. Nosenko. They are not --

Mr. Sawyer. Apparently they knew he could speak Russian.

Mr. Nosenko.

-- asking Americans approaching.

Judging by the questionnaire, they decided, the KGB decided,

Seventh Department, he is not an interesting target.

Mr. Sawyer. Well, why would a person like this not even

be interesting for something like the Tokyo Rose, on some kind

of propaganda program where he could say how bad things were

in the United States, and why he didn't want to stay theree

anymore and how great they were in Russia, like these

propagandists do?.

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I am telling you why it was decided,

and how KGB was thinking about him.

Mr. Sawyer. I yield back the balance of my time.

The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mr. Fithian.:,

Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman, I just now got this report.

I wonder if I could let Mr.Edgar go ahead of me?

The Chairman. The Chair will recognize Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a series of questions which I hope most of which

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will be yes and no kinds of questions.

Did you conduct in the KGB a program to compromise and

recruit journalists?

Mr. Nosenko. I was working, when I started to work in the

KGB in 1953, the first year I was working against American

correspondents.

Mr. Edgar. But the KGB, not you personally, but the KGB

did have a policy of going against journalists and trying to

compromise them, yes or no?!

Mr. Nosenko. Trying to recruit or compromise them.

Mr. Edgar. Did they censor all the journalists' notes

that they could

gather from the journalists? Did they censor

the notes before they allowed the story to

go out?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

Mr. Edgar. Priscilla Johnson interviewed Oswald on the

15th of November, 1959. Would the KGB have looked at her

notes from that interview?

Mr. Nosenko. Sir, they ae censored not by the KGB, but

there is special -- it is

government organization was censoring

this. Some materials are coming to the KGB, some are not

coming.

Mr. Edgar. Well, she reveals in her article that he was

a

Marxist, that Oswald was a Marxist and a Marine Corps radar

man.

It would seem to me the KGB would have discovered that

in November of 1959.

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Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I didn't know this in those days.

Mr. Edgar.

Do you know a correspondent by the name.of

Arlene: Mosby??

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I heard such a name, Mosby, a woman

who was a correspondent.

Mr. Edgar. In the earlier questioning of Congresswoman

Burke, you were not confusing MArlene Mosby with the treatment

of Priscilla Johnson?

Mr. Nosenko.

I think it was Priscilla Johnson, the case

which I described,

think so.

I think so, it was Priscilla

Johnson.

Mr. Edgar. How

do you know?

Mr. Nosenko.

What I heard from colleagues who were in

KGB, who were working against correspondents.

Mr. Edgar. But you are not absolutely clear?

Mr. Nosenko. And then there was an article in --

Mr. Edgar.

You

are not absolutely --

Mr. Nosenko.

in Pravad, Izvestia,

In literary newspaper, I think it was, not

but in Literary Gazette.

Mr. Edgar. But

you are not absolutely certain?

Mr. Nosenko.

No. I think it was Priscilla JOhnson,

as

I said.

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Mr. Edgar. Büt it could have been someone else.

Mr. Nosenko. An American correspondent, woman."

Mr. Edgar. Are you certain that after 1967 you sat down

T..

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300 7TH STREET, S.W., REPORTERS

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with the CIA and corrected your earlier statements about Oswald,

yes or no?

Mr. Nosenko.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Edgar. We have only a few pages of written testimony,

some three pages that you gave, and in fact, in the beginning

part of that testimony, you indicate that you don't wan't to

go::

through it again because your earlier testimony will stand for.

itself. I am paraphrasing what you said.

Were the notes and the recordsings of those corrections

made and kept by the CIA?

Mr. NOsenko. Sir, Mr. Bruce Solie talking with me every day

for a period from the end of '67, the whole '68, 1968, '69, every

conversation he was

recording. But he never has come and showed

his notes, transcriptions or anything. He was returning to

every case, to every aspect by 20, 25, 30 times.

Mr. Edgar. But specifically on the Oswald case, would it

be correct in our assuming that it was more than three pages of

notes on specifically Lee Harvey Oswald after 1967?

Mr. Nosenko. If he was raising questions concerning also

Lee Harvey oswald.

MR. Edgar.

We have some information that Bruce Solie -

Mr. Nosenko.

Yes, Mr. Solie.

Mr. Edgar.

Stated in a deposition that there is nothing on

Oswald other than the three pages.

Mr. Nosenko

cannot

ify pages.

I know

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that he was passing through all cases, all questions, with me

for the period almost two years.

Mr. Edgar. Who other than Bruce Solie did you talk to about

correcting your earlier statements?

Mr. Nosenko. I wasn't correcting them. They were correcting?

they were talking returning back to every case.

Mr. Edgar. One final question.

Mr. Nosenko. And also besides Mr. Solie, were people coming

from FBI with cases in which were interested for them.

Mr. Edgar. One final question. You stopped our hearing

about an hour ago and were concerned about our playing the tape

and bringing up old memories, and I respect the fact that you are

very patriotic in coming before this Committee and helping us.

Would you be willing to sit down with our staff and go

through a series of written questions which outline specifically

for you the contradictions of your 1964, '65, '66 and early '67

timeframe, with the statements that you made, in '67, '68 and

'78, and indicate in a yes-no manner which statement, laid side

by side, is true and which statement is false?

Mr. Nosenko. If it is the wish of the Committee, sure..

Mr. Edgar.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman.

The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mr. Fithian?

Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Nosenko, do you remember when it was that the

first interviewed you

Are

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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Mr. Nosenko.

Sir, I do not remember dates, but --

132

Mr. Fithian. It was between February and April?

Mr. Nosenko. Right, right.

Mr. Fithian.

The information we have is that it was early

March, the first week in March. Is that about right?

Now have you talked to the FBI about that testimony at any

time since then?

Mr. Nosenko. Gentlemen, on many, many times I have seen

FBI,

many, many questions raised. I cannot - about this testi-

mony, no, no.

Mr. Fithian. About the Oswald testimony?

Mr. Nosenko. About Oswald were asked questions, but not about

this testimony. I do not remember about this testimony.

Mr. Fithian. My question is, there is a written transcript

summary of your testimony to the FBI taken on March 5th, 1964.

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Fithian:. My question is, have you at any time since

then visisted with the FBI about this testimony?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, no, sir.

Mr. Fithian. Now, next, when — what is your understanding

as to when Oswald first offered to defect, when you first knew,

when the KGB first knew he was interested in defecting?

Mr. Nosenko. I cannot give you a date.

Mr. Fithian. All right.

Well, he filled out an application -

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Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no application, in oral form. He

told the interpreter in oral form.

Mr. Fithian. This was the Intourist?

Mr. Nosenko.

Interpreter of the Intourist.

Mr. Fithian. And then the Intourist came to the KGB?

Mr. Nosenko. Right, and it immediately was informed to KGB

that this American applies, wants to stay, said to interpreter.

Mr. Fithian.

And then you reviewed the file?

Mr. Nosenko. It was several pieces of pages what we had on

him. It wasn't even file.

Mr. Fithian.

But you reviewed whatever applications --

Mr. Nosenko. Right. No it wasn't application to stay. He in

oral form told the interpreter that he wants to stay Soviet

Union.

Mr. Fithian. You reviewed the pages that he had filled out

for the visa and any other sheets that you had?

Mr. Nosenko. He didn't -- yes, these documents, yes, for

the visa, questionnaire and --

Mr. Fithian.

Yes. : What I am trying to get at is what did

you have in front of you physically, knowledgeably about Oswald?

Mr. NOsenko.

What I remember, it was it was several pages

only; was questionnaire, was form of document from Intourist

received how long his tour and how many days. There was checks

of Oswald in archives of KGB to forms. There was information from

Intourist who work miz

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Mr.

Fithian.

All right. Let me just stop you here.

Mr. Nosenko. Yes.

Mr. Fithian.

The forms in there by the KGB were filled out

based on what information?

Mr. Nosenko. On his name, what he supplied who he is, when

he was asking visa.

Mr. Fithian.

But they conducted no check, no search?

Mr. Nosenko. It is in the archives of KGB, if he ever was

in Soviet Union, on him there will

be something. If he wasn't in

Soviet Union but he was known to intelligence service --

Mr. Fithian. But you didn't have any record on that.

Mr. Nosenko. Nothing.

Mr. Fithian. And so the final question is that the only

thing that you had to judge -that he was an uninteresting subject

was what he had told the Intourist

guide?

Mr. Nosenko. Right.

Mr. Fithian. That is the only substantive thing?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, and his questionnaire for who he

is, his name, whatever he filled about himself... That's all.

The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.

The Chair has

one additional request from one member,

for

one

additional question.

Mr.

Sawyer?

Mr. Sawyer. I just have one additional question, and that is

the $80,000 you got for compensation and: the $15,000 or $20,000

CEROCT

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you

got later, that was net money after whatever taxes or whatever

it was

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, after all taxes were taken.

Mr. Sawyer.

Thank you.

Mr. Dodd. Mr. Chairman?

The Chairman. Mr. Dodd?

Mr. Dodd.

I just wondered for the record, I wondered if,

Mr. Nosenko, you could tell us when you arrived in this country on

February 12th, 1964, between February 12th, 1964 and April 4th,

1964, where were you in this country?

Mr. Nosenko. February 12 of 1964 and April 4th,

was staying

in house in Virginia. I do not know address.

Mr. Dodd. Did you go - did you travel at all?

MI. Nosenko. No, sir.

Mr. Dodd. No vacation?

Mr. Nosenko. Oh, I went in March on week to Hawaii. I was.

Mr. Dodd. Were you on your own?

Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no, with guards.

Mr. Dodd. It was a relaxed period for you and just a chance

to rest?

Mr. Nosenko. Chance to get a little bit rest.

Mr. Dodd. Is it your knowledge that this is the normal way

that defectors are treated when they come to this country?

Mr.

Nosenko. I do not know.

Mr.

Dodd.

Just one last point, Mr. Chairman, and that is

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with regard to the American exhibit, as a result of a statement by

Mr. Klein which I understand you did not disagree with, the American

exhibit ended on Sepgember 4th, 1959? That's when the termination

of the exhibit was?

Mr.

Nosenko.

Yes, he showed me an article.

Mr. Dodd. Is it your knowledge that employees thatworked

during the exhibit stayed on for a period of time after that?

Mr. Nosenko.

Sure, to it will be disassembled, this is the

whole process is going on. It is closed for visitors to visit,

to look.

Mr. Dodd. How long a period would that have been, a week?

Mr. Nosenko. No, more.

Mr .::Dodd. More?

Mr. Nosenko.

More, sure.

Mr: Dodd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, with reference to your earlier

comments this evening regarding what transpired during your

period of isolation, which you described as extreme spartan

conditions, I would like to make this request of you. I think the

record ought to in a very graphic way portray those conditions

under which you were subjected during that period of time, and

while you are complying with Mr. Edgar's request and working with

the staff in terms of the contradictory data, would you also agree

to work with the staff in terms of seeing that the record has a

complete and accurate description

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Mr. Nosenko.

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Yes, sir.

The Chairman. --of all the conditions which you underwent:

!!!

during that period?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

The Chairman.

Thank You.

Did you have some?::

Mr. Cornwell.

Following up on the question that Congressman

Dodd just asked you, the staff, in an attempt to determine how long

it took to disassemble the exhibition, checked with a knowledge-

able employee who was involved in that process in the State...

Department and were informed by that person that the exhibition

was disassembled and the persons who were operating it had

left by October the 4th, approximately 30 days after the

exhibition was terminated.

Would you disagree with that information?

Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I cannot disagree. I do not remember.

I do not know, even, when they left, no, sir.

Mr. Cornwell. That is all I have.

The Chairman. Anything further from the Committee?

Now, MI. Devine, do you have anything?

Mr. Devine.

No. He is under continuing subpoena.

The Chairman.

Under the rules of the Committee, Mr. Nosenko,

any witness appearing before our Committee is entitled at the

conclusion of his testimony to address the Committee for a

period of five minutes for the purpose of clarifying anything

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for the record or making any statement he so desires, and I want

to at this time afford you that five minute period to make such a

statement, if you so desire.

Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I consider

my appearance, invitation to appear at Committee, as I told also

the same applies before, my meetings with the staff of the Commit-

tee, I consider it honor, great honor for me. I will try to

answer whatever I remember, whatever I know as only truth, and

but the truth. And you would like to see me appear at any time,

I am at your disposal and I will try to give you the only things

what I know.

The Chairman. Thank you.

That is the completion of your statement, sir?

Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, on behalf of the Committee and

the United States Congress,

I want to express our appreciation to

you for having appeared here and having given this Committee the

benefit of your testimony. At this time I would remind you of

the terms of your agreement to work with our staff and provide

further information to the Committee, that you will continue

under the oath

administered to you by this Committee.

Mr. Nosenko.

Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Thank you very much for your appearance

here.

Mr. Nosenko. Thank you, sir.

F

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The Chairman.

You are excused.

At this time, there being no further business to come

before the Committee, the meeting is adjourned subject to the

call of the Chair.

(Whereupon, at 10:17 o'clock p.m., the Committee was

adjourned subject to the call of the Chair.)

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