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TRANSCRIPT

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DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : SSCIA

FROM •

TO .

TITLE :

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HARVEY

DATE : 06/25/75

PAGES : 62

SUBJECTS :

ZRRIFLE

CASTRO

ROSELLI, JOHNNY

OPERATION MONGOOSE

BISSELL, RICHARD

ASSASSINATION

KENNEDY, JOHN F.

THE PRESIDENT

QUWIN

MAFIA

SILVER, ARNOLD

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION : T

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS : P

* DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

Box 245

Folder 13

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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counterespionage for a brief period against the Japanese and

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3

4

the Italians and the Russians in '41. Then during most of the

War, against the Germans, and then beginning in early '45 until

the middle of '47 against the Soviet service again.

5

Mr. Schwarz. And then in 1947, did you join the CIA as

6

head of the Soviet Intelligence Branch?

Mr. Harvey. That is correct.

8

Mr. Schwarz. Is that also counterespionage?

9

Mr. Harvey. Yes, it was.

10

Mr. Schwarz. And then between 1947 and 1952, you worked

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on Soviet counterespionage and certain special operations in

& PAUL

WARD

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the Department for Plans, is that right?

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Mr. Harvey. Well, that is correct. It was a particular

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command and staff responsibility on communications intelligence

and for..a: period of, I would think probably eight to ten

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months, I headed a planning staff, along with that.

Mr. Schwarz. In 1952, did you go to Berlin as chie toff

station for the CIA?

Mr. Harvey. I did.

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Mr. Schwarz. And were you there until 1959?

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Mr. Harvey. Until the end of 1959.

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MI. Schwarz. I understand, Mr. Harvey, that you had some

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rather substantial accomplishments there, such as the Berlin

24 sonment

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Could you just very succinctly describe the Berlin Tunnel

....

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operation and then move on?

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Mr. Harvey.

Well, very briefly, that is an operation that

att and I conceived some time before I went to

4

Berlins

5

6

Senator Tower. You and who?

Mr. Harvey.

Frank Rolett, who for many years was one of

7

the, if not the most, knowledgeable senior officer in the

8f cryptologic group

9

And one of the reasons I went

was to attempt to

10

mount this operation.

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In substance, what it amounted to was setting up a fairly

12

complex cover within a cover installation

West

Bor

130

500

under sound

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appinguisto three nai

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and teleprinter

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around

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which

Ding

19Sr

the main circuit between the

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comma

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into Bans

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in Germa

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also

pped

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1n dien

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unatel

were

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reall

readable

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Senator Tower.

Were not what?

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MI. Harvey.

Were noth

able

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Mr. Schwarz. I have been told, Mr. Harvey - is this not

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correct -- that you not only congeived the program but hollbedy

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Mr. Harvey. I did.

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Mr. Schwarz. In 1959, did you become Chief of the Foreign

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Intelligence Staff Division D?

7

Mr. Harvey. That is correct.

8

Mr. Schwarz. Now is Division D a division of the CIA which

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is responsible for connunications intellig

10

Mr. Harvey. That is also correct.

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Mr. Schwarz. But part --

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Mr. Harvey. But I would like to clarify it, if I may,

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Mr. Schwarz. It was the division of the clandestine services,

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which was the focal point and was responsible for primarily two

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things:

the procuremen

communications intelligence

thisot

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operational and alanded

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the product, of commur

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lat

the

landestine

and

lone intelligence, as

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We had nothing to do beyond that with the general sort of

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research and analysis use which was handled infe separate

216 COMTNT Shop

what I believe was the DDI, Deputy Director

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Intelligence.

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ties

the

Mr. Schwarz. Did Staff D include within its responsibili-

Sucrept i trous obta

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got code intormation:

Mr. Harvey. Yes, in two ways: complete control and

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coordination of any such efforts, approval and assessment of the

security risk, and also

in the direct procurement through

operational means abroad, but not in this country.

Mr. Schwarz. And by operational, you mean ente

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Mr. Harvey.

Surreptitiou

con nica thong

I monito

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michovave:

that type of thing.

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be covered as well.

on

Lom:

Eclande

ne mon

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Mr. Schwarz. Now, did a man call

Justi

Or pongell

work

for you in Staff D?

Mr. Harvey. Yes, he did.

Mr. Schwarz. At some point, did

He Plan, in Fall

1190?.

recount to

you a conversation concerning Patrice

Lumumba?

Mr. Harvey. Yes.

Mr. Schwarz. Would you state what h

said to you?

Mr. Harvey. Briefly, led O"Donnelly game to me and said

that he had been

approached by Richard Bissall,

who was then

Deputy Director for Plans, to undertake an operation in the

Congo, one of the objectives of which was the elimination of

Patrice Lumumba. He also told me that he had declined to

undertake this assignment.

Mr. Schwarz. Did Mr Bissell subsequently have a conversa-

tion with you in which he also recounted the fact that he had

requested

Ms. O"Donnell, to undertake such an operation?

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of assassination is obviously a two-pronged subject, ours and

2

theirs. We spent countless hours over the years trying to

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determine the parameters of how far the Soviet service was

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willing to go. This was partly a question of assessment;

5

this was partly a question, to put it just as bluntly,

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of self-protection.

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I will try to summarize what I think are fair conclusions.

8

In the field of political assassination, although I cannot

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document this by evidence, I have no question but what the

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Soviet service has, does, and will continue to use the tool of

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assassination to accomplish poditical gains inside and outside

of the USSR. In the intelligence field, I think you have to

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make a distinction, the distinction roughly - and I'm over-

14

simplifying this slightly -- but a distinction into perhaps

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three classes.

16

One, their own ethnics or nationals. Sacondly, indigenous

17

agents of third countries.And thirdly, the recognized official

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staff officers of other intelligence services.

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During the seven years that I spent in

Bertin, which was

the longest continuous period that I was exposed in depth to

21

Soviet Executive Action, we lost a great many Russians, a great

22

many Germans, a certain number of Czechs, Poles and other

23

nationalities.

24

Mr., Schwarz. When you say you lost Russians, you mean

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Russians who were working with the United States?

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Mr. Schwarz.

Anyway, it exists, as a combination.

Mr. Harvey. In other words, if you want to put it in just

these blunt terms, it would have been a lot easier for the KGB

to assassinate me in West Berl

athan it would have been for

ime to assassinate my opposite numbere

in rast berlin, in the

Soviet Embassyl across, the bordert

Mr. Schwarz. In describing the Soviets, you distinguish

between political assassination, direct agents of the United

States, and finally the emigres and foreign nationals.

Mr. Harvey. And also -- well, not foreign nationals, but

emigres and Soviet nationals.

Mr. Schwarz. That's what. I meant. Soviet nationals.

Mr. Harvey. The most merciless, the field where they are

the most merciless are their own defected agents, of course.

Mr. Schwarz. Now, to your knowledge, has the United States

ever assassinated a defected agent or a third country?

Mr. Harvey. You mean an American agent who has defected

or doubled?

Mr. Schwarz. Yes::

Mr. Harvey. To my personal knowledge, no.

Mr. Schwarz. What about persons who are third country

enemies of the United States?

Mr. Harvey. No.

Mr. Schwarz. You don't know any instance of the United

States assassinating any person who is in the non-political

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Eyes Only basis, and the first part of this was the necessary

documentation for the authority which was later signed off on

by Dick Helms as Deputy Director.

Beginning on my page 4, your middle of page 3.--

Mr. Schwarz. Well, just a moment. Page 1 is a cover story,

not the real story, the objectives --

Mr. Harvey. It is both.

Mr. Schwarz. But it does not recite as an objective, ü onli

assassination or assassination capability.

Mr. Harvey. No, it does not.

Mr. Schwarz. Instead, it cites the obtaining, of code

And cypher materians

Mr. Harvey.

Which, I would like to point out, was a

perfectly legitimate objective and was not in a sense, a cover

story except that if this project had gone so far as to the

actual recruitment of any agent for assassination or the target-

ting of any target or the mounting of any operation, it would

have been under this as a cover. But, those assets that were

19

spotted by QJWINN, for instance, under ZRRIFLE were also

20

honestly considered for possible clandestine procurement of y

21" Communications intel lidence outside the uts.

22

So it's -- maybe I'm not making this clear, it's a cover

23

in a sense, but it's not a phony cover, in other words.

24

Mr. Schwarz. Dual purpose.

25

Mr. Harvey. It was a dual purpose.

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MI. Schwarz. You mentioned QJWINN. Was QJWIN/ an agent

who you did hold in reserve for possible use in connection

with the Executive Action program?

Mr. Harvey. No, QUWIN is an agent that I considered for

possible use and used for a limited period through

Arnold sinver

for the spotting of individuals with criminal and underworld

connections in Europe for possible multi-purpose use, none of

whom were ever advised of the use, none of whom, as far as I

personally know, were. ever used.

Mr. Schwarz. But the multi-purpose use included as one

purpose the possible use in assassination?

Ting

Mr. Harvey. Only the sense that had we ever been saddled

with a flat, if you will, command performance on assassination.

I might have considered the people spotted by WIN: as possibil-

lities.

But, you see, before anybody that is ever spotted is

approached for any operation and particularly -- and please, I

don't mean to sound pedantic on this, I don't mean to -- is

shauld lis

actually approached, there

isa long period of assessment,

crosschecks, so on and so forth. This particular spotting

mechanism never actually went that far, as far as I know.

I only know of one use made by QJWIN until we terminated

him some months later, I don't remember the exact date. It was

before I went to Rome. I know it was in connection with an

operation in the Congo that was not an assassination operation

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and had, as far as I know, personally, at least, nothing to do

with assassination.

I have checked pages 1 and 2 and 3 and my page 4.

Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 4 through 7, in your judgment;

pages that were written by Ms. Arnold Shives?

Mr. Harvey. As a guess, I'd say they appear to be in the

same writing as these first three pages.

Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 8 and 9 pages that are written by

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you?

WARD

PAUL

Mr. Harvey. Well, just a moment, let me get to those.

I would also like to point out that from page 4 that -

that is page 4, as long as it continues in the same handwriting

was: not a part of this so-called Project Outline, these I

would guess were probably Arnold Silver's notes and probably

based, at least to an extent, on discussions he had with me,

and certain sort of problems and questions and principles that

I tossed out to be considered and cares to be exercised.

Mr. Schwarz.

Then pages 8 and 9 are in your handwriting,

is that right?

Mr. Harvey. Pages 8 and 9 are in my handwriting.

Mr. Schwarz... And at the bottom of page 8, does that

indicate that you had a conversation with Ma, shiver on January

26th?

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Mr. Harvey. Yes, it does.

Mr. Schwarz. And is it your judgment that that is January

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26, 1961 and is about the subject of Executive Action?

Mr. Harvey. Yes, it is.

Mr. Schwarz. And it followed your conversation with Mr.

Bissell that you have recounted?

Mr. Harvey. I think probably that might be -- well, when

I first looked at this, I thought this, well, this has got to

be '62, but I am almost certain now that it is not. If this

is true, this might place the first discussion that I had with

Dick Bissell

In early January

nd this is difficult to pinpoint

because there were several such discussions in varying degrees

of detail during the period in the spring, and very early in

'61 to the fall of '61 period, but I did find out fairly early

on that Sil

had -- or that Bissell had discussed the question

of assassination with Arnold's

, and this discussion at

the very least, had to take place after I know Bissell already

had discussed the matter withSilverd

Now, these two pieces of paper, well, I say two pieces of

paper, what they are from -- they are in my handwriting. It's

from a yellow pad, probably the duplicate of this that I used

to keep on my desk and just make rough notes of conversations

that I had, telephone and otherwise, with various people.

Once a week I would igo through them and either destroy them,

classified: trash; dictate from them, or occasionally save

them. There is no relationship between the material that

appears after the line two-thirds of the way down the page, just

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before the ^ 26/12A5.

it which is tabbed SID G, tab 21.

, and the material which appears above

Mr. Schwarz. That would be Sid Gottlieb?

Mr. Harvey. Sid Gottlieb.

Mr. Schwarz. Doesn't the conversation with Sid Gottlieb

on the 25th of January indicate you had discussion which included

the word bankruptcy and you felt assassination was --

Mr. Harvey. There was a general philosophic discussion of

assassination and assassination techniques. There was also a

discussion on a number of other things that were of particular

and specific interest to the communications intelligence

field

and the clandestine service's responsibilities aspects, if you

will, and as best I can recall this conversation, this was a

sort of an exchange of ideas

and briefing session, probably

held at the request of Sid Gottlieb in my office shortly after

he either took over a new job in TSD or took over as actual

Chief of TSD, which was the Technical Services Division of the

clandestine services.

Mr. Schwarz. Now the reference in the middle of that

conversation with Mr. Gottlieb to "Last resort beyond last

resort and a confession of weakness." That's referring to

assassination?

Mr. Harvey. That's obviously referring to assassination.

That's probably what I told Sid Gottlieb my opinion on the

use and propriety of assassination as a technique was.

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of operational philosophy which I expressed to Gottlieb, that

the question then came in pure theory as to -- as in such cases

as, now assumptions, the example of 3 wrong, I am not really

sure. But the closest that I can come is that the assumptions -

it might be desirable in a purely theoretical discussion and in

my opinion we were wrong. Whether I said that to Gottlieb in

the words that are here, I just don't know.

Mr. Schwarz. Who were the two besides Mr. Trujillo that

make up the examples of

• 3?

Mr. Harvey: I presume - I have no idea, but I presume

that the logical candidates at that point would have been

Lumumba and Castro.

By: logical candidates, I mean not that

we were considering them in this discussion as logical targets

for

assassination, but that these were sort of the three

people that would come to mind;if you are going to go into this,

these are three to be considered.

Sid's job.

But you will notice, if I may, Mr. Schwarz, "Framework of

— Memo. "

Ludford

is the name of the staff

officer who worked for me in Division D at that time.

This "translating machine" was an experimental device,

done under - hoped for development

by GE/ that I was most

interested in, because of the serious translation problem that

we hadland

articulasty

in communicationg interligence.

So you see this was not a discussion strictly within the

framework of either assassination as a specific, or assassination

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as a general problem.

Mr. Schwarz. Now, the material commencing on handwritten

page 4 and commencing in the middle of page 3 of the Senator's

notes, reflects in your judgment the conversation that you had

with

Silver)and it is his notes about that conversation, is

that right?

MI. Harvey. That is my best guess.

It may also, however, include his own thinking and so forth.

I doubt if it includes -- it certainly would not include any

specific discussions, I don't think, with other officers,

because

"was under specific instructions not to

discuss this as such with anybody else, at least without clearing

it with me first.

Mr. Schwarz. And he starts, for example, by talking about

"Legal, ethical, morale, operational problems" and so forth,

and that reflects the conversation you had with Ma Silver?

Mr. Harvey. Yes, it does.

Mr. Schwarz. Down toward the end of entry 3b -- and 3 has

the heading "Maximum security" - do you see that on page

4?

IT 50955 DocId: 32281945 Paye 14

Mr. Harvey. Yes, I see it.

Mr. Schwarz. There is a sentence which reads as follows --

two sentences, which I should read into the record, three

sentences.

"Within Kubark" -- now, is that the CIA?

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crossed in this document.

MI. Schwarz. One way or the other?

Mr. Harvey. That's right. One way or the other.

MI. Schwarz. Your note has a report to the DCI, the

January 26th reference, which reads in the first line

That is

old Silver

So I take it?..

Mr. Harvey:. Yes,:I'm sure that's

nold S

Mr. Schwarz. Then it appears to say f-a-n-f-o-r-n DCI

matter. What does that mean?

Mr. Harvey. I am not sure. The closest I could come to

that is a fairly illogical Fanfani, and Fanfani was never

even dreamed of, as far as I know, in any such context.

Fanforn - Burton Wides raised that with me, and I just had to

throw up my hands. I just don't know.

Mr. Schwarz. And you don't know what the reference to DCI

in the notes means?

Mr. Harvey. No, I am sorry, I do not, at this point, Mr.

Schwarz.

Mr. Schwarz. Okay.

Mr. Harvey. Are you asking me to try to interpret the

portion of this that is in my handwriting, or are you satisified

lat this point?

Mr. Schwarz. Well, the other items, it seems to me, are

either not important or are understandable. Maybe some of the

members have questions.

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