TESTIMONY OF TAD SZULC
Originator: SSCIA
From: SZULC, TAD
Document date: 6/10/75
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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157-10005-10255]

JFK Assassinatior System

Identification / orm

Agency Inform. tion

Date:

2/23/201

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER: 157-10005-10255

RECORD SERIES : TRANSCRIPT

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : R262

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: SSCIA

FROM: SZULC, TAD

TO:

TITLE: TESTIMONY OF TAD SZULC

DATE: 06/10/1975

PAGES:

66

SUBJECTS :

EXHIBITS 1-2

GSA EMPLOYEE

ESQUIRE ARTICLE

EASY CHAIR PROJECT

CUBAN OPERATION

CASTRO

KENNEDY, FRANK

SZULC, TAD

PENTHOUSE ARTICLE

DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT/ TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION : Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS :

CURRENT STATUS:

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 07/21/1994

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS: BOX 259-15

v9.1

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than I and rothing stands or nothing sticks in my mind to

suggest that Dick. said any thing which would be other than

normal, casual conversatior after what was rather a strong

remark by the President. Ind I was a little bit stunned,

needless to say.

Mr. Kirbow. Thank you very much, Mr. Szulc.

MI. Aaron. If we can go onto another subject, Mr. saulc.

from page proofs of a fort coming article in the magazine

there is a suggestion there concerning the involvement of

the Agency in - the Central Intelligence Agency -- in the --

involvement of the Agency after the 1956 Suez War in a program

with Israel.

Can you tall us what that story is about?

Mr. Szulc. The article which is to appear in the Augus*

issue of Penthouse magazine relates in a general fashion for

reasons which I will explain presently, if so desired, the

fact that sometime in tha late 50's subsequent to the Suez lar

of 1956, the CIA had made ¿ vailable to the Israeli goverrmert

technical knowledge, technical assistance, in many fields,

leading to the creation - that was the case at the time

or the development at least: of a nuclear weapon.

Mr. Aaron. Can you trill us how you managed to acquire

the story, what substance there is to it, or in what way the

story can be substantiated

Mr. Szulc. I was tod by one of my news sources that a

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situation had occurred in the 1960's in which the CIA delivered

to the Israeli government classified information, technical

knowledge know-how, the services of distinguished physicists and

fissionable material in the form of plutonium to assist in the

development of an Israeli nuclear weapon at the Dimona Israeli

Nuclear Testing Grounds.

I have raised the subject in a private conversation with

Mr. James Angleton in the spring of this year. Mr. Angleton

told me that essentially this information was correct.

Let me backtrack and aid one point.

My original information was indeed the counterintelligerce,

the CI Division of the Central Intelligence Agency, which was

then headed by Mr. Angleton, was the unit in CIA responsihle

for this nuclear operation.. Because of an acquaintantshio

which I have with Mr. Angleton I had the opportunity in a

private conversation to ask him in so many words, can you •

corroborate or confirm that this which I have described took

place and that you and CI ware involved in this.

Angleton said that - he was rather taken aback by this

information - said that, in effect, he could confirm it. with

two corrections.

One, the timeframe was wrong, that it was

not in the early '60's, but indeed in the late '50's after the

Suez War and number two that as far as he was concerned it

was not delivered by him or the CIA or anyone of his knowled.

of any fissionable material such as plutonium or other material.

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That all that was made available to the Israeli government

by the CIA as represented, and as represented by CI, the

counterintelligence was classified information, technical

assistance, and the availability of one or more distinguished

nuclear scientists or physicists whose services were available

to the United States government.

I, based on information which I had from my original

source, asked Mr. Angleton whether he could confirm that

a British born scientists whose name, upon investigation.

turns out to be Mann -- M-a-n-n -- first name Wilfred Basil

or Basil Wilfred - again I can correct the record at that -

where MI. Mann, or DI. Manr I should say, was indeed one of

the scientists involved in this operation. Mr. Angleton

confirmed that indeed this was the case.

He cautioned me that any publication of Dr. Mann's

involvement in MI. Angletor's words could be enormously

explosive, damaging to the national security of the United

States, damaging to our intelligence assets and also enormously

dangerous to Dr. Mann pers nally. In effect, Mr. Angleton

said at one point that sholld I surface MI. Mann's name,

Dr. Mann's name, he may go as far as commit suicide.

I asked for an explanition and MI. Angleton told me that

DI. Mann, who was a British citizen at the time, who in the

'50's was part of the joint. U.S.-British nuclear group based

at the British Embassy in lashington, was found by

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counterintelligence, by CIA, to have been involved in some way

in one or more espionage situations involving the defection

of McClean and Burgess and subsequently Philby. I asked

Angleton to tell me more about this. He said it was one of

those very complicated double agent situations in which a

decision was made when DI. Yann was still in this country that

he would not be prosecuted, arrested or otherwise exposed and

because the Agency felt that he could be useful or helpful as

a U.S. intelligence asset.

It is further my understanding that D. Mann, who now

resides in Washington, D.C. - or I should say in Chevy Chase,

Maryland, across the state line - is now employed by the u.s.

Bureau of Standards, is an American citizen. According to

Mr. Angleton, his equivalent, the CIA equivalent of a parole

situation which means he's inder surveillance and has to report

at certain intervals to his case officer or his parole officer.

as it were, at the CIA and me repeated that should the story

of Dr. Mann's involvement in those situations, the espionage

situations and the Israeli situation emerge, it could be

enormously damaging to the J.s. national interests, to the

negotiations in the Middle East, to men with our intelligence

arrangements with the British, who I understand have the knowledge

of the U.S. decision not to prosecute Dr. Mann and that in the

end it could even become personally damaging to Dr. Mann to the

point to use Angleton's worls, he might kill himself.

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I told Angleton that I would handle the story in the most

careful way, which is the hay in which it appears, or will

appear, in Penthouse magazine. The name is not given. There

is no mention whatsoever of the Burgess-McClean-Philby type

of situations.

Angleton's name is used in the story to corroborate the

material but without direct attribution to Angleton. The

article will say or is saling that sources close to Angleton

confirmed the thrust of the story but disclaimed other allega-

tions, or words to that eflect, that a fissionable material

was made available to the Israeli government.

Mr. Angleton chose not

to go into a question which I

raised with him which was whether this operation was undertaken

with the knowledge and the authorization of the President of

the United States at the time or the National Security Council,

the Atomic Energy Commissin and/or other departments of the

government who would norma: ly be responsible for transfer or

clearance for transfer of classified information in the nuclear

field to a foreign governmint.

MI. Angleton chose no': to discuss this and I therefore was

not in a position to pursu.. this point which obviously was ore

which contains a great dea..

Mr. Schwarz. Did you discuss with Mr. Angleton anything

about -- any question rela:ing to why this was done, assumiro

this was done, if it was done?

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Mr. Aaron. Can we intrrupt the record to note that the

Senator has left.

(Senator Mondale left he IOOm.)

Mr. Schwarz. Under the rules, you don't have to proceed

further, if you wish.

Mr. Szulc. Fine with ine.

MI. Schwarz. Did you liscuss with Mr. Angleton whether or

not there was anything that the United States of the Central

Intelligence Agency or Mr. Ingleton, taking them in that order.

raceived in return for the passage of this material, if in

fact it was passed?

Mr. Szulc. No, I did not. I did not raise the questior.

I suppose because among other things because of the limitatior.

of time and because my main 'effort at that point was to tr!

to corroborate to my own satisfaction that such an operatior.

occurred and to obtain from Angleton as much as I could o!

corroboration or denial, which was done in the form of

transcribing.

MI. Kirbow. Let me get it absolutely clear so that there

is no doubt left in my mind.

Did you describe in the same detail to Mr. Angleton tha:

you related here about the transfer of all of this stu!! and

the physicists, and did he confirm that that did in fact take

place except for the fissionable material?

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Mr. Szulc.

Basically yes.

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I said something to the effect

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that I understand, can you confirm this or not, because I'm

in a quandry, do I use the story or not, would you comment on

the following information. In other words, do I understand

correctly that the CIA and specifically counterintelligence and

you personally have engaged in making available to the

Israeli's information, know-how, assistance, technical

assistance, manpower, scientists and nuclear materials for

development of nuclear weapons in the early '60's.

This was roughly the way I put it to him. His response

was, being rather taken aback by the question in the first

place, you know, he said, how the hell do you know about this.

and I said, well, you know one hear's things in this town.

and he says well, as long as you know, you might as

well have it straight. Your timeframe was wrong, it wasn't

the early '60's it was the late '50's and decidedly, flatl;.

to the best of my knowledge, there was no delivery of

fissionable material to the Israeli's.

Then my second question was, as I recall, do I understar.!

correctly that Di. Mann was one of the scientists who were

made available to participate in this operation, which be

confirmed, as I mentioned, and then he said, but, did you row

that he had this peculiar tackground to which I referred

earlier.

MI. Kirbow. You referred to him as a double-agent

background?

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Mr. Szulc. He didn't ise the word. I think this was

my word to describe him. I think more precisely he did not

use the expression.

Mr. Schwarz. You stated the conversation took place in

the spring, was it April?

Mr. Kirbow.

April of'25

Mr. Szulc. If that's really relevant to you and I can

look at my calendar and give you the precise date of it. It

would have been late March, early April.

Mr. Schwarz. Well, I think it would be relevant if we

want to check it out with anybody else.

Mr. Szulc. That's easy. I can check it out.

Mr. Schwarz. Where did the conversation take place?

Mr. Szulc. It took place in the home of a mutual friend

in the first instance and then it continued at dinner at a

restaurant in Washington.

MI. Schwarz. Dinner in the evening, not lunch?

Mr. Szule. I would say most of the conversation was at

the mutual friend's house and loose ends were wrapped up at

dinner.

Mr. Kirbow. What was the friend's name?

'1r. Aaron. Can we ask a different question?

Nas your mutual friend a party to the conversation?

Mr. Szulc. Yes, ha was present.

Mr. Kirbow.. Then I think the question is even more

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pertinent. What was the pe-son's name and do you mind talling

us where the home is locatel?

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Mr. Szulc. I would have the same problem that I had with

the other question on sources. I have no difficulty here,

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I would make the request, i: I may -

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MI. Kirbow. Certainly.

MI. Szulc. Because it does involve a friendship here.

Mr. Kirbow. Apparently Mr. Angleton's a personal friend

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of yours too.

Mr. Szulc. No, I woulin't describe him as a personal

friend. I would describe him as an acquaintance, a good

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acquaintance.

The mutual friend is Benjamin wells who is a former

correspondent of the New York Times, he's a former officer of

the OSS who worked with Angleton in OSS.

Is there some way in

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which I can refer this as priviliged information or words to

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that effect?

I do not like to be in a position of violating confiderces,:

situations where people are trying to be helpful.

Mr. Schwarz. Well,

I think in this case the individual

does have evidence. The other individuals were just sources,

and there's a distinction letween this and the other.

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Now it seems to me if Mr. Angleton confirms this story

then anybody else's testimony I suppose is irrelevant.

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Do you agree with me, Charlie?

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MI. Kirbow. Yes.

I believe that it should be fair to say to you at this

time that if the Committee chose to verify this matter with

Mr. Angleton and he denied the same, then the Committee might

well want to look further and talk with someone else, so I

I make you no promises of what the committee would do. I'm not

I in a position to do that as a staff member. But I think that

would be a matter which they would very carefully consider

along with the regeust that you've made.

Mr. Szulc. The point of the request is essentially that

Angleton and Ben Wells are old and close friends. My

acquaintantship with Angleton is through Ben Wells and in a

way it is a bit of a -- 1t would be a bit of ethical violation.

you know, friendship to cite Ben Wells as a witness, a

corroborating witness.

Mr. Kirbow. I don't belleve we understand here that he

corroborated the fact, only that he was present at the time

that the confirmation took place?

Mr. Szulc.: This is why I have a problem of givim you

the name but again I want you to understand about the personal

relationship that exists arong friends, particularly in our

profession.

iI. Kirbow. I think more importantly in our understanding

you should understand that the transcript is in your own.

words available to the Committee and they will be able to see

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exactly what the concerns ae.

MI. Szulc. Sure.

Mr. Schwarz. I don't lave anything further on this

particular matter.

Mr. Aaron. I have one last matter.

Do you intend to do any further stories on this particular

subject?

Mr. Scwharz. This one'

Mr. Szulc. Israel?

Mr. Aaron. Yes.

Mr. Szule. At this point, no. I understand that a

colleague of mine, a professional colleaque of mine in this

town has some knowledge, I lo not know how much, of the

general story. This colleajue, for his own reasons, has

refrained from publishing i=. We have discussed it as friends.

We have made an arrangement that -- a gentleman's agreement.

if you will, that each will inform the other the last minute

if one of us wants to use the story.

This is a conversation which goes back to January.

February. I beleive that ny colleague, at the time, at least.

did not have as much information as I believe I do at this

time.

I would go back to this only if either this colleaque

surfaced in more detail than I have and as you will see in

Penthouse I am enormously restrained about the datail. os?

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of the detail that I mention here does not appear in the story

for obvious reasons. Or i! some agency of the government

produces a flat denial which then involves my credibility and

my reputation as a reporte: which would then force me almost

in defensive action to go nto detail.

If left alone, I woulr prefer to stand on what I've

written and the story is to oome out in such detail as I have

mentioned here. My personal predilection would be to see it

come out through the Cormittee for reasons --

Mr. Kirbow. You're telling the Committee then that you

did not obtain the information from this colleague of yours,

but you think that he has separate source information?

Mr. Szulc. Well, he his sources that are obviously not --

MI. Kirbow. Could you ell us this colleaque's name?

Mr. Szulc. If it is not absolutely necessary, I would

rather skip that one, because again we are in this peculiar

field of very personal finarcial relationships and I don't

think it really tells you all that much.

You know, we tend to

waltz around each other, you know, when one of us thinks the

other one knows what he's working on there's a little bit o!

waltzing and there's a little bit of confidential -- discuss

personal friendship involved.

I see Wells' name is re evant to the conversation because

he can corroborate a conversition. Here I'm dealing with a

man where I don't even know how much knowledge he has, and sirrly

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we were discussing did we know about a CIA nuclear Israel

situation without mentioning any details. Angleton's name was

never mentioned in my conversation over lunch with this colleague

so I don't aven know what he knows. He may know just the

general subject.

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Mr. Aaron. I have one question, the last question for

my part.

Why did you want to tell this story to the Committee?

Mr. Szulc. Two reasons.

As a reporter I do not believe that I can clarify this

matter further than I have because of my own limited resources

I cannot subpoena people, et cetera, et catera. I think it is

an extremely important point to be established in the context

of the whole look into the intelligence community whether this

is or is not the case of the Agency acting outside of

astablished channels of government.

I think it is useful and necessary for the Congress and for

the public opinion at some point somewhere to have knowledoe

of it since I am not able professionally to pursue this any

further, unless someone lands on my doorstep with the information.

I think Angleton is as far as I can go on this in what he

has given me I have written with all the self-imposed restrictions

to which I have referred and I think that nothing is served

by my keeping this in secrecy.

The thing which I have not printed which I have mentioned

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here, but I think that there may be a valid follow-up on your

part of this information. Call it a citizen's duty for lack

of a better word.

Mr. Aaron. Did you speak to MI. Mann or Dr. Mann about

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this?

Mr. Szule. No, I did not. Deliberately.

Mr. Aaron. Did anybody working with you make an effort

to contact him?

MI. Szule. No, it was a very deliberate decision on my

part not to go to him because he was described to me as an

elderly gentleman in ill health and if, indeed, with Mr.

Angleton --

(Pause)

I was simply saying that I made a deliberate decision not

to call Dr. Mann because I did not think one, he could be

very helpful to me and I was told by Angleton and other people

that he was an eldarly man in ill health and my calling him

or coming to him saying is it true that you're a spy, is it

true that you worked for the CIA in Israel, is it true you

work for the CIA would unhinge the person and in situations

like this I think most of is have simply to balance what you're

likely to get out of a call of conversation against the

damage that you can inflict on an individual, and I felt that

it was too little to be gained.

Mr. Kirbow. I have ore final question.

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Although you've indicated this was prepared for an August

issue of Penthouse, did you tell the Committee when you first

obtained this information from your source?

Mr. Szulc. The very first inkling about this would have

been early February.

Mr. Kirbow.

of this year 1975?

MI. Szulc. Yes, 1975. And then I pursued -- I was given

the name of the scientist and we ran down the background details

and so on, subsequent to which I had a conversation with

Angl-ton which would have teen, as I say, late March or early

April. And Angleton was really the only -- professionally the

only person who could ba ir a position to discuss it.

Even if

he stonewalled it, which he did not, which raises the question.

was the counterintelligence, was the CIA or how was it directly

involved.

Mr. Kirbow. Have you ever discussed this with any other

government official or police person?

Mr. Szulc. I have not. other than which appears in

Penthouse magazine of will appear, this is the first discussion

to date.

Mr. Kirbow. Wa want l0 thank you, Mr. Szule, very

much

MI. Schwarz. Thanks.

(Whereupon, at 4:55 o clock p.m., the hearing in

the above-entitled matter vas. recessed.)

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SS/ 7110 - 00-25-6537 000000

6116175

FRANK K. KENNEDY

Born: 6/27/31, Hungary.

Original Surnamo:

Tatabanya.

Divorced, date unknown; first wife Hungarian, named Magdano

Remarried 6/20/65

Social Security Number: 043-32-1C39

GS-9, Step 4. karns $6.20 per hcur.

Started Federal imploy 3/66.

Became Career Employee 3/69.

Heceived Outstanding Attendance Citation, 1971-72.

Received Vifice of Emergency Prepuredness Award Commendation,

Date Unknown (Routine Award).

Assigned to WHITE House Area GSA Date Unknown; re-assigned to Hock

Greek Arca 8/9/70).

-O-

Contact getting above felt he cou dn't push source further, to

get information such as citizenship, date of entry into Us, home

phone, etc.... if in fact, some of this data in records.

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