RE:  DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL
Originator: FBI
Document date: 10/07/1975
Document type: REPORT

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JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

8/27/201

AGENCY: WILDEROTTE

RECORD NUMBER :

178-10004-10041

RECORD SERIES:

INTELLIGENCE SERIES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 34. FBI (3)

Heleased under the John F.

Kennedy Assassination

Records Collection Act of

1992 (44 USC 2107 Note).

Case#:Nw 66504 Date

12-14-2022

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO:

FBI

TITLE :

RE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL

DATE: 10/07/1975

PAGES:

12

SUBJECTS:

CUBAN EXILES

CHURCH COMMITTEE

BAY OF PIGS

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

NSA

DOCUMENT TYPE : REPORT

CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret

RESTRICTIONS: 1B

CURRENT STATUS : Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 08/03/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

• COMMENTS :

v9.1

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SCt

IVOOT-T000T-82T

Unauthorized Disclosure

Subject to Criminal

Sanctions

OFFICE OF THE

DIRECTOR

TOP SECES

AN VIA COMINT

o 1

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

WASHINGTON, D.C:

20535

62-116395

October Y, 1975

NATIONAL

SECURITY INFORMATION

D. S.. SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE

TO

STUDY

COVERNNENTAL OPERATIONS WITH

RESPICE TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES (SSC)

PEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR

I. RAYMOND WANNA

on October ,

2975, in response to a request of

Mi • John

T. Ell1l1, Staff Hember of the SSC, Mr. W. Raymond

Wannall, AsSistant Director, Intelligence Division, Federal

Bureau of Investigation (YBI), was deposed in Room 45% of

the Bassel! Senate Office Bullding by Messrs.

James Dick,

John to

allact,

and

Eric Richard, Staff Members of the

captioned Committee.

The deposition concerned matters

relating

the

so-called Watch Irst maintaired by the

National

Security

Agency (NSA)

to record the iist of names

of individuals and organisations furnished to that Agency

by

the

1164

the purpose o1 receiving

intornation coming

to NSA's attention

during the

course

o1 its regular activities

relating

communica tons

matters

The

Staff Nembers began taking the

deposition at

approximately

3:10

The

questions

and

poll, and it was completed at 5:40 p.D.

answers were recorded by irs. Susan

Hamback.

Five minutes before

the beginning of the deposatiot

Senator Richard

So

Schweiker o1 Pennsylvanis appeared

and placed

Wannell under oath.

He then departed.

MC o

Wannall

advised of his rights.

He was

told that

since & senater would not be present he could decline to

answer questions and he could request

discontiquance at

any

time.

He was

further advised

that

the

results would

be recorded and

he

would

be siven an opportunity

to review

the transcription

sud

sign it at a

later time.

Manall, just prior

to leaving his ofsice

to appear for the deposition,

TES

furnished

the attached

letter dated October 3, 1915,

signed by Mr. David D. Lowman,

Specia]

Assistant to

the Director for Congressional Reviews,

NoA y

and approved

by Lieutenant

General Lew AlleD,

Dizector of

NSA •

Messrs• DiCk,

BILLis, and

Richard were

ONE%

set

Glessitiod

by 12

SPon

Gos,

Categories 2 and

Date

Declassification

Indefinite

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SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES (SSC)

RE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL

advised of the contents of the letter which authorized

Mr. Wannall to discuss and provide deposition, as requested,

in

executive (closed) session matters concerning the Watch

List formally maintained by NSA at the request of the FBI.

The letter stated further that concerning open sessions of

the

NSA

Senate Select Committee, Mr. Wannall was advised that

and Senate Select Committee representatives would

commence negotiations on October 4, 1975, to define limits

within which Special Intelligence information may be disclosed

in open session and pending establishment of such limits,

FBI personnel were requested not to discuss Special Intelli

gence matters in such open sessions.

Mr. James Dick of the Committee Staff was the

principal interviewer

The following represents to the

best of Mr. Wannall's recollection the information furnished

by him responsive to specific questions.

Material is not

necessarily set forth in the order in which the questions

were asked and the responses given.

Mx. Wannall was first exposed to NSA-type material

when he arrived at Headquarters for assignment in 194.

material had been produced by a predecessor agency to the

National Security Agency. He became aware of some of the

overall capabilities of the NSA probably sometime during

babies be ine

the late 1950's.

He was shown copies of three FBI internal memoranda

addressed from W. R. Wannall to W. C. Sullivan (at that

time Assistant Director of the Domestic Intelligence Division

of the FBI) captioned "Communications Intelligence - Cuba,"

and dated respectively May 18, 1962, January 16, 1963, and

April 6, 1965.

Mx. Wannall explained that since Communications

Intelligence matters relating to Cuba were handled

in the

Section of which he was Chief during this period, he had

some personal knowledge in this area.

With respect to

Watch List matters in other areas of

interest to the FBL,

his knowledge for the most part was based on a review of

material and information provided to him orally by current

personnel of the Intelligence Division-principally during

the preceding 24 hours. In this connection, he explained

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SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES (SSC)

RE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL

that he had learned at about 5:30 p.m. the preceding day,

October 2, 1975, that his deposition testimony would be

expected to relate either mainly or exclusively to Watch

List matters.

The memoranda described above related to meetings

held in Wannall's office in May, 1962, and

January, 1963,

at which representatives of NSA

and representatives of

Wannall's former Section were present,

centered about the means whereby NSA could be most helpiul

to the FBI in processing some 20,000 messages received

each month in NSA's coverage of Cuban matters.

messages were said to relate to both commercial and

personal communications between Cuba and the United States.

The three memoranda showed that a procedure was

worked out whereby the FBi could submit approximately

300 names and addresses to NSA for the purpose of securing

information relating to FBl responsibilities.

Na -

300 names.

a the horner to at on on

the criteria prior to being shown the memorandum of April 6,

1965, wherein the criteria were set forth.

The procedures

for submitting the names were described.

They consisted

basically of attaching on a regular basis to a cover

memorandum lists of names of individuals appearing in

the Cuban Special Section of the Security Index and names

of individuals listed in the regular section of the security

Index

tabbed "pro-Cuban," together with identifying data

on mail drops utilized by Cuban Intelligence Agents

operating in the United States and Puerto Rico.

memoranda with attachments were sent through regular

reviewing channels for approval to deliver to NSA the

attachments thenselves.

Mc. Dick referring to two other programs involving

the Watch List (mentioned hereinafter) stated that similar

procedures were not followed in submission of names to NSA

and asked why this was so.

He was advised that matters

relating to the Watch List

were handled on a need-to-know

and strictly compartmented

basis and the procedures utilized

in other Sections would not necessarily be the same as

those utilized in the Section formerly headed by Mr. Wannall.

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RE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL

In response to questioning, Mr. Wannall stated

that he could not recall any instances wherein names

regarding the Cuban Watch List were submitted orally to

NSA, but it was possible that this may have been done in

some cases:

He was not able to comment on the volume of

material received from NSA in connection with the Cuban

Watch List since the product went directly to the desks

of the supervisors handling Cuban matters within his

Section.

He did recall that the quality of information

was in some instances very good (since it related to

known or suspected Cuban Intelligence Agents operating

in the United States and Puerto Rico.)

The memorandum of May 18, 1962, referred to

the fact

that it would be helpful to the

FBI to receive

a periodie listing of firms in the U.d. which were doing

business with individuals in Cuba and with the Cuban

Government•

In explaining

this comment, it was pointed

out that the U.S. Government had established a list of

restricted items

which could not be sent to Cuba without

an export license and material of this nature would have

been of value to the FBI to establish identities of firms

which might be contravening the provisions of regulations

so adopted and administered by the Department of Commerce.

It was pointed out that to Mr. Wannall's knowledge no

such U.S. firms were subsequently included on the Watch

List.

The memorandum of January 16, 1963, referred

to the possibility of furnishing to NSA a listing of

approximately 1,100 Cuban invasion prisoners and 900

relatives of these prisoners who had recently been

admitted to the U.S.

It was explained that this referred

to the prisoners taken

by the Cubans during the Bay of

Pigs invasion in April, 1961, who, to the best of Mr. Wannall's

recollection, had been released by the Cuban Government and

had returned

to the United States around Christmastime of

1962 -

It was pointed out that to the best of Nc. Wannall's

recollection, representatives of NSA conducted a general

briefing of certain personnel of the Domestic Intelligence

Division sometime around the Fall of 1969 in order that the

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SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES (SSC)

RE:

DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL

capability of NSA to assist the FBI in discharging its

responsibilities in the intelligence field might be made

known•

This general briefing was not a briefing relating

exclusively to the Watch List covering new left matters.

A representative of the Section then headed by Mr. Wannall

was sent to the general briefing but to the best of

Mr. Wannall's recollection not to the briefing covering

the Now Left Watch List.

Mr. Wannall again noted the

that his awareness regarding both the New Left Watch

List and another Watch List relating to racial matters

had come principally fron reviews of material and briefings

by Intelligence Division personnel within the preceding

24-hour period.

Mx. Wannall was shown a copy of a letter

originating with NSA which contained a code word utilized

in connection with the New Left Watch List and was asked

it he had ever heard the code name. He replied that he

had heard it and estimated that it

was some several months

to a year or more after the New Left Watch List briefing

in the Fall of 1969 which has been referred to above.

Nr. Ellift inquired as to the rules utilized

by Headquarters in referring material originating with

NSA to its various field offices for investigative attention.

He was advised that the field was told the information

could be utilized for lead purposes only, could not be

Included in any communication prepared for dissemination;

and that individuals outside the FBI should not become

cognizant of the fact that the FBI was in possession of

the material.

Mr -

Elliff asked if the same standards

were applied to information which was the product of

foreign intelligence electronie surveillances conducted

by the FBI.

He was advised that that was not the case;

information so produced could be set forth in communications

prepared for dissemination in property paraphrased form

and in a manner which would protect the identity of the

source.

With respect to foreign intelligence electronic

surveillances conducted by the FBI, Mr. Illiff asked 1f

there was

one place to which FBI personnel could refer for

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RE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALI

the purpose of recovering such information.

In response

the operation of

the FBI's Electronic Surveillance Index

was

explained and it was pointed out that this index was

not utilized as a Watch list.

It was further explained

that there is no computerization of such information.

In response

to a specific request, the start lembers were

advised that the

material received from NSA as a result

of the so-called Watch Lists had not been computerized.

Nx. Wannall was shown a copy of a letter

addressed to the Director of NSA dated June 3, 1970,

from which the subject had been excised with a notation

that it was a code word for one of the Watch Lists,

Identified in a note on the yellow file copy as the

Watch List relating to new left matters. In the letter

the Director of NSA was informed that the FBI had a

continuing interest in receiving intelligence information

obtained

in this particular operation.

Mr. Wannall

explained that from his review of material, he had

established that this letter apparently had been written

in response to a request from NSA that the FBI indicate

if it did, in fact, have a continuing interest in

receiving such information. At this point, a copy of

a letter sent to the FBI by NSA was exhibited and it

supported the reply to the previous question,

Mr. Dick then exhibited a copy of a teletype

dated December 24, 1970, which had been sent by the FBI

to NSA concorning an individual named Grover C. McArthur •

In

the body of the teletype, it was indicated that

McArthur, a student at the University of Pennsylvania,

(P)lanning to write a paper on the Black Panther Party

and its international operations and was seheduled

to leave the United States two days later for Algiers,

Algeria, where an office of the BPP was located.

Asked

why the

name of a student writing a paper on such a

subject matter would be placed on a Watch List, Mr. Wannall

stated that he had no knowledge in connection with

and suggested the possibility there may have been a file

on MeAr thur which would show the basis for such a request.

E111ff stated

that he would explore the question

whether, in fact, there was such an FBI file on McArthur.

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RE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL

Mr •

Wannall was specifically asked whether

names were placed on any of the so-called Watch Lists

orally.

He advised that based on discussions he had

had with Intelligence Division personnel, it was his

understanding that some names were placed on some of the

lista orally,

but that he was unable to say how many and

would

estimate

that the percentage was small.

He was

asked if he had any information indicating that set

procedures were established with respect to the Watch

Lists relating to new left and racial matters.

he had been advised that a card file had been maintained

as an administrative aid in order that the identities

of individuals and organizations on a Watch List would

be readily available.

This card file was maintained on

a temporary

basis and cards were destroyed upon the

removal of the names of individuals and organizations

on the list.

There was no central repository in Bureau

files for the names on the lists.

On a recurring basis,

NSA would furnish Watch list print-outs wilch were

circularized in order that a review could be made to

assure that the list was up to date. It was pointed

out by Mr. Wannall that he could not estimate how often

these lists were received from NSA and circularized,

although he felt that it was probably more frequently

than yearly.

Na. Dick posed a question as to whether

any names had been placed on the Watch Lists for foreign

intelligence agencies and Mr. Wannall replled in the

negative.

copy of a letter

addressed by

the Bureau to the Director of NSA on

March 22, 1371, in which a request was made for any

pertinent information which might come to NSA's attention

concerning certain individuals who were named in an

enclosure.

The note on the yellow file copy indicated

that the names on the enclosure had been furnished by

a foreign intelligence service (the name of which had

been excised) and that the individuals were ones in

whom

that service had an extreme interest.

The note

further indicated that in addition to being of interest

to the foreign intelligence service, the individuals were

also of interest to the FBI in view of existing close

relationships between Black extremist activities in the

United States and a foreign country.

Vx. Wannall pointed

out that his previous negative reply should probably have

been qualified with the statement "to my knowledge," and

that

what seemed to be pertinent with respect to this

matter was

(1) whether

• NSA had ever provided information

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SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES (SSC)

RE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL

on any of the persons listed on the enclosure and (2) 11

SO,

whether such information had been furnished to the foreign

intelligence service.

Another letter exhibited was one dated June 8,

1971, from the FBI to the Director of NSA captioned "Black

Nationalist Movement, Racial Matters.*

This letter

referred to some names, addresses, and, in sone instances,

telephone numbers which had been previously forwarded

NSA by communication dated June 4, 1971, and requested

any pertinent information which NSA might possess or

might have come to its attention concerning the individuals.

The June 8, 1971, letter also had a note on the yellow

in which it was stated that the list of names sent to NSA

June 4, 1971,

included suspects in the NEVKILl case and

relatives and associates of suspects, as well as BPP

members •

In response

to questions, Nr. Wannall explained

what that case was and how the Bureau was called upon

undertake investigation.

Since the case involved the

killing of New York City Police Department officers in

about May, 1971, Mr. Dick commented upon the possible use

of NSA-produced

information in a criminal investigation

He was advised that Mr. Wannall had no knowledge as to

whether or not NSA provided any information which was

so used

in this particular matter.

Referring to previous information to the effect

that lix. Wannall was aware in the late 1950's of certain

NSA operatious, Mr. Dick inquired as to whether NSA was

supplying information to the FBI before the institution

the Watch Lists. The reply was affirmative.

He asked

1f such information included naterial on United States

citizens.

While Nr. Wannall could not recall specifics

in this regard, he expressed

the opinion that material

on U.S. citizens was

provided in the late 1950's and

prior to the institution of the Watch Lists procedures.

Mr. Dick mentioned a specific name of apparent Trench

derivation which was not recognized by Nr. Wannall

Inquiry was made as

to whether former Director

Hoover had given approval to the submission of names

by the FBI to NSA.

Mr •

Dick was advised that it was

recalled that in reviewing material during the preceding

24 hours.

Mr. Wannall had seen former Director Hoover's

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SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES (SBC)

EE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIBECTOR W. HAYMOND WANNA

approval on a communication relating to a Watch List

and had also noted & sertal

or two which had been stamped

into it. Hooverts office..

It was further pointed out

respect to the appronal of nanes for Vatch Laste

normally the various Assistant Directors of the

Diviston now called the Intelligence Division would have

suecessively been the FBI representative on the Unitod

States Intelligence Bored (USIS) and thus would probably

be the most knowledgenble

FBI official

concerning USED

and NSA matters.

Mr. Wannall also stated that he felt

former Direetox Hoover had been faniliar with NSA operatious.

Rosponding to specific questions, be stated he had no

Inowledge whother former Acting Director Willtas Luckelshaus

was tamiliar with the NSA opezations and no specifie

infornation concernins the knowledseamilty ot au

Departmental officials with rosard to such operations.

He noted that he was avaro that several Depaztmental

officials had Special Intelligence clearances and by

rosson of theis access to the naterial produced by NSA,

some knowledse concerntng NSA

capabilitzes might have

been acquired.

A lottox,

tive pages in length; dated September 10,

1973,

vas exalbited.

The Latter was fron the IDI to the

Assietant Attorney General,

Criminal Division, Department

of Justice, and was captioned "United States v. W13330m

Ayers, et al., Tastera Distasot os Michigan.

12 Kamall*s

attention vas directed

to a sentence in the second paragzapa

of the letter therein it was stated "le are in no posation

to discuss with you

the manner in which these highly

sonsitive operations are carried out by NSa.* He was

asked whether this indicated

that the F3l could not

Clacuss this with the Assistant Attorney General because

of its censitivity or lecause of a lack of knowledge.

Tanna)l stated he couzd

not sny what ms in the lind

ot

the writer of the letter.

do pointed out that the

previous sentence had indicated an swareness by the Fut

of "the highly sensitive, conplox operations relating

to communications intelligence capabilities," which would

seen to indicate an avazeness as opposed to

an-depica

knowledge.

He Foun

Cours

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RE: DIPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYMOND WANNALL

sentence in this same letter on page 4

was to the effect "We have never considered NSA information

or, for

that matter, information in our files which

originated with any other United States ageney as being

derived fron electronic surveillance devices, since we

axe

not

privy to

the methods and means of their obtaining

the

iaformation." Mr. Dick asked that since the word "we"

was used in this sentence, did it mean that just the writer

or the Bureau

took the position that NSA infornation was

not considered as being derived from electronic surveillance

devices.

He was advised that again what was in the writer's

mind could not be interpreted but that Nr. Wannall could

cite a personal experience which might have a bearing on

his question. Several years ago in a situation concerning

which the circumstances and reasons could not be recalled,

Mr. Wannall was destrous of establishing the source of

certain information which had been provided by NSA.

When

he discussed this with the FBI Liaison Agent who dealt

with NSA, he was told that the Liaison Agent understood

NSA utilized electronic sources, live sources, other

agencies both U.S. and foreign, and probably other type

sources.

The Liaison Agent further commented that NSA

would not reveal a source of theirs any more so than

the Bureau would discuss a source.

During an off-the-record discussion, a letter

from the Attorney

• General to the Director, FBI, dated

October 1, 1973,

was considered. This letter captioned

*Requests

by FBI to NSA for Dissomination of Electronic

Surveillance

Information" contained instructions that the

IsI should immediately cease requesting any further

information from NSA which was obtained by that agency

by means of electzonic surveillances.

The Attorney General

made an exception to this by stating that if the FBI

desired to obtain solely foreign intelligence or counter-

espionage information from the NSA, which was acquired

by that agency through electronie surveillances, the

Attorney General's prior approval be seeured.

During

the off-the-record discussion, Nr. Elliff stated that he

wanted to get Mr. Wannall's reply on the record as to

whether the FBI had secured the Attorney

Genezal's approval

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in this

regard, utilizing the procedures which were

outlined in the

Attorney General's letter of October 1,

1973 •

Mr. Elliff was reminded of the parameters of the

interview

and the scope of release issued by NSA to

lor. Wannall to permit the latter to be deposed. Mc. Elliff

11 to ernot the t

said that since Watch Lists matters were involved, he

wanted to pursue this

and accordingly returning to on-the-

record interview, Mr. Dick asked whether since the October 1,

1973, letter from the Attorney General the Bureau had

utilized the procedure of seeking the Attorney General's

approval to obtain solely foreign intelligence or counter-

o dorman on

espionage information from NSA.

The reply was negative.

The question was propounded as to whether at the present

time the FBI levies requests upon NSA, Mc. Wannall

responded that at the present time the fBi does not

request NSA to add to its electronic searching capability

any names or items of interest to FBI investigations.

The FBI, however, has requested to be placed on NSA's

general distribution list for certain itens of information

which that agency develops by its foreign coverage in the

course of servicing requests received from the USIB or

other U.S. Government agencies..

Nr. Elliff then asked whether the Bureau as

a member of the USIB made any input with respect to the

overall United States Government intelligence requirements.

He was advised

that analysts prepare papers relating to

such input which papers are passed upon by the Board

and that the FBI has no analysts who participate in the

preparation of such papers.

Responding to a question, Mr. Wannall pointed

out that the Bureau does presently receive material from

NSA and

has had discussions with NSA to make that agency

aware of the FBI's foreign counterintelligence interests.

Me. Elliff asked if the Attorney General was aware of this.

He was advised that Mr. Wannall recalled attending a

briefing in the Attorney General's Office within the

past six months, which briefing was conducted by repre

sentatives of NSA.

During the briefing the Attorney

General became aware of certain areas of FBI interests

with respect to NSA functions.

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RE: DEPOSITION OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR W. RAYVOND WANNALL

The final question propounded was based on a

January 22, 1914, communication to the Director, 151, trom

the Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, relating

Director was reminded

therein of the Attorney General's letter of October 1, 1973,

wherein it was stated that the FBI should cease the practice

of requesting information through

the so-called Watch List

system until the Attorney General is able to assess more

carefully the effect of certain Supreme Court decisions

concerning

this practice.

In order to complete that

assessment,

the Assistant Attorney General requested

the most current list of names which the FBI had on NSA's

Watch Lists prior to the termination of the Watch List

practice.

The question asked was, had the Attorney General

ever completed his assessnent and

issued instructions to

the BI with regard to this matter.

Nc• Wannall said

that the Attorney General had not to his knowledge

completed the assessment and issued such instructions

as he,

Wannall, believed he would be aware if that had

been the case.

It was pointed out, however, that Wannall

had attended numerous conferences at which the Attorney

General had been present and was aware that the Attorney

General had given much consideration to this matter.

is presently giving consideration to it and when he

completes his

deliberations, it is felt that the Attorney

General will issue any necessary guidelines which, of

course, the FBI will closely follow.

Enelosure

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