Originator: SSCIA
From: HEDGEMAN, VICTOR
Document date: 08/21/1975
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

## Page 1

(157-10014-10080

2023 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

Date :

Page

08/06/95

1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD

NUMBER: 157-10014-10080

RECORDS SERIES

: HEARINGS

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 10-H-12

• --

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : SSCIA

FROM : HEDGEMAN, VICTOR

TO

TITLE

DATE

PAGES

SUBJECTS

08/21/75

121

:

ASSASSINATIONS, LUMUMBA

CONGO

CIA

DOCUMENT TYPE

: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION

UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS

CURRENT STATUS

RELEASED WITH DELETIONS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW

09/25/98

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS : Box

3

[R] - ITEM IS

RESTRICTED

NW 50955

DooId:32423466

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a Vol 3 of 9

MATION

31. 7У.

Unauthor trad

to Criulial SaB

Ohir Muiteà Statre Griatr

OSATION

Subject

R881

Report of P'roceedinge

INVINTOMEDA

043/2/22

• 28

Hearing held before

SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL

OPERATIONS WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES

Thuraday, August 21, 1975

Washington, D. C

(Stenotype Tape and lante turned over

so the Commiicee for destruction)

WARD & PAUL

410 FIKST STRENT. X. B.

WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003

(202) 644-6000

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PRono (9y86 707) 584-807

Parot rive

C

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(Witness:

Hedgman)

EXIITDIS

EXHIBIT

No. 1

No. 2

FOR IDENTIFICATION

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HANBACK i ant

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STAFF INTERVIEW

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Thursday, August 21, 1975

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United States Senate

Select Committes to Study. Govarnmenta

Operations With Respect to

Intolligence Activities,

Hashington, D. C

The Committee mat, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 o'clock

a,1a., In Room 608, The CarrOll Arma.

Staff: Burton Wides, Frederick Baron and Rhett Dawson,

Profesaional Staff Members.

--=

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"ano (AN a0 407) 3788001

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209949.

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IROSEERINES

Mr. Baron. Hould you state your name and address for

the record, please?

MI. ladgman, My name is Victor S. liedqman, I can be

reached at all timos at the Central Intellinence Agency.

Mr. Baron. And Mr. Hedgman, isn't it true that Victor s.

Hedgman is actually an allas and that wa have agreed that you

will tastity hare today undor allas?

Mr. Hedgman. That's correct.

Mr. Daron. And Isn't it further true that we have made

arrangemanta with you that your true

identity will be recorded

on a statement regarding tastimony in allas which will be

permanently on file at the Central Intolligance Agency for

verification purposas?

Mr. llodgman. That's correct. I belleve that this, that

would like to add that I have asked that this be done for

my

own protaction, protection, physical protection, actually.

Mr. Baron. And you understand that we will rotain a

sanitized copy of this form to attach to your transcript as

• Exhibit 1?

Me. lledgman. I do.

Mr. Baron. All right.

Then lat us introduce this atatement which you have

signed as Exhibit 1.

(The document referred

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ponont (9r8+ 707) 396-6000

7 l Tañoadnue

110 $051 51990

. S.R., Mararnpion, D.C. 2000)

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3

ersaN ti

to uas marked Hedgman

Exhiblt No. I for

1dantification.)

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angone (5180 707) 346

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3.k., Mosminaton, D.E.2000)

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MI.

Baron, Let me ask you to varily the fact that that

1s your true signaturo?

Mr. liodgman. That la my true signature.

Mr. Baron, Thank you.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

MI. Baron. Mr. Hadgman, are you aware that you have a

Ilght to counsal beforo this Committea?

MI. Hedgman.

Yes, I am. But. I shall ask for 1t 11 I lanl

the need.

MI. Baron. Mil right.

Are you voluntarily appearing hate today without counsel?

Mr. lladgman. I am.

MI. Baron.

And you are aware that at any point. during

the questioning you may cease answering the questions and

request to consult with counsel?

MI. Hedgman. I am.

Mr. Baron. Are you also aware that all of your constitu-

tional rights are intact here today, including your fifth

Amendment rights to silence?

Mr. Hadoman.

I am.

Mr. Baron. Although you

ard

not under oath hare today.

are you awara that the Committoo Intands to ask you

to awear

to the truth of your testimony hate as soon as possible?

Mr, lladgman. I am aware of that, and for the record would

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mona (Ares 103) 326-2004

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like to make the point that I am going on recollection of avants

which occurrad nearly fiftaen years ago, some flitsen years,

some slightly more, some slightly lass.

So therafore, I will

make evary effort, but again, I am stressing this fact that i

have not had an opportunity to rafresh my memory by reading old

filos of anything of the sort.

Mr. Baron. That is completely understandable.

Mr. lodgman. I Just want thia -I am making this point

for the Committos members. I have already made it to you

yesterday.

Mr. Baron. And it la understandablo that we are asking

you to diacuss events that took place almost fifteen years ayo,

but it is your intention to give us the truth as far as you can

Iecall It?

Mr. Hedgman. It 1s my full Intention to give the truth.

Mr. Baron.

Thank you.

Mr. Wides. Mr. Hedgman, would you ploase brlefly give

us a doscription of your careur with the Agency, and that can

be by basically divialons or type of job in a vary brief

summary.

Mr. Hedgman. I began, was recruited to serve, as what

ls roforred to as a non-official cover agent, and I was a

contract as opposed to a ataff officar. That was changed

shortly aftarwards. I think a faw months later I was mada &

staff officer but remained on official cover for the first sever)il

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MalArmpion, 0.6 20003

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Years of my time, working abroad. I raturned to Washinaton

where I then became overt in the sanse of I worked in the

offices and was no longer ostansibly a private businegaman.

I sarved as what is known as a case officor in the European

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Mr. Baron. About what time parlod would you say?

MI, lladgman. It was '53 to early '57. Early 167 untll

the mid-60's I survod in Europe working primarily on Sovlat

oparations.

Mr. Dawson. I think you might have misspoken. You sald

m1d-60'8, oarly '57 to mid-60'8. Did you mean 1960%

Mr. lodgman. Mid-1960, yos, I would correct that. From

July 6 on until -I can't remember whather it was June or

July of 1963 I sarved as Chlef of Station in than Leopoldville.

now klorshasa, zairo. I was Chial of Station. s then seturnad

to Washington in the early fall, the axact dates I don't rocall,

of 1963, and I was what la known as a Branch Chief. I was

Iespongible for the sastain half of Africa from 1963 to June

of 1965.

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June of '65 till June of '57, I was

Bentions

I raturned to Washington where I became Branch Chief

again for the Southeast Asian area for a very brief time.

In

essance lt was to prepare me for my next assignmont which was

the Chief of Station, Vientiane, Laos.

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Upon complation of that assignment --

Mr. Baron. You began that assignment 1n '673

MI. Hadgman. No. I began the Southeast Branch Chief job

in '67. I began the cos job in the summer of '68, and I laft

thare in the summer of '70.

As you know from earlier, 1l1-health played a role in

unfortunatoly forcing me to leave.

I then saturnad to Mashington whare I became Deputy Chief

of the African Division, January, 1971 until December, 1971, at

which time I became Chief of the Division and ramalned Chia!

until I rotired.

MI. Baron, Until December of '72, would that have been?

MI. ledgman. No, December of '71.

MI. Baon. No.

Mr. Wides.

No.

Mr. ledgman.

Then I retired 28th of June, 1974.

Mr. Widos. You were first approached to go to the confo

as Station Chief for the Congo and othor nearby countries in

June of 1960?

MI. Hedgman. No. It was quite some time before that.

I'm

SOIrY, I can't remember specifically whather it was four

montha, fiva months. Actually, thay talked to me about it as

much as a yaar -

MI. Hidas, And you went out -

MI. lodgman. Not a year. Maybe seven or sight or nine

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months. I don't rumember. I was in Washington. My lather was,

we thought, dying at the time, and I had flown home to be with

him.

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MI. Wides. And you want thare on June 10th or 11th?

MI. Hedgman. I'm sOrry -

Mr. Wides. Approximately?

Mr. lledgman. It was either the loth of the lith that I

firat arrived.

Mr. Wides. The beginning of the second weak in June?

Mr. ladgman. Of July.

Mr. Wides. Of July, I'm aorry.

And that was shortly after the Congoleso independence from

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the -

Mr. Hedgman. The indopendence was on the 30ch of June

and I was, had bean given vacation time, which I got in one

day before I arrived, but they called me, I was taking some

vacation in Europe on the way down and they phoned me, traced

me down, and said got down there, the mutiny

had taken place

and the place was coming apart.

Mr. Hidas. Prior to your leaving, and in connection with

your preparationa and biletings and discusalons at Headquarters,

had thore bean any discussion at all with you

or that you were

aware of ragarding the possible assassination of Patrice

Lumumba?

Mr. lodgman. Absolutoly none, I can say that that is

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absoluta sureness of recollaction.

Mr. Wides. And then you had baon thare a short while, i

take It, and in about the last week of July, when Patrice

Lumumba and othars from the Congo came to the United States, 1

ballave around the 26th of July, am I corract, that both you and

the Ambassador returned to America?

Mr. lodgman, That's corract.

Mr. Wides. And during 'your return here, In any discussion.

you had with officials at CiA or other governmant officials.

did you have any discusalons or learn of any diacussions

regarding the possible assassination of Patrica Lumumba?

MI. liedgman. No, air, I did not.

MI Hidos. And than you raturned to the Congo?

Mr. lodgman. Yes.

I balleve we raturned on the ach of

August, if memory serves me.

Mr. Wides. Now, as a very brief background for the

next selles of questions, is it correct that by early septanner.

that Is by the sth of 6th, Patrico Lumumba had been dismissed

as Premier and the U.S. had already bacome Berlously concerned

about the beginning of soviet assistance or involvement in the

Congo and the possibility of sovlet Influence in the Congo?

Mr. ledgman. I believe those dates are corroct of the

5th or 6th. It could concelvably be the 7th. Certainly long

boforo that time, those of us interested in the political

altuation thare; that 18, the Ambassador, members of the rolltical

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Section, mygell, wore greatly concarned about what appeared

to be a soviet affort to take over the Congo.

Mi. Wides. And because of conflict between - among, l

quass, la the appropriate word - because of conflict, or

potential conflict, among the central government under

Prealdent Kasavubu and othere as one fsction, Patrico sumumba

and his followers as a second laction, and MI. Tahombo and

his follars as a third -

Mr. lledgman. And Gizenga an a fourth.

Mr. Widas. Gizanga, I taka lt ha was somewhat within

Lumumba's camp?

Mr. lledgman. Yus. I'm sorry. I should not have

Interrupted.

Mr Wides. In any ovent, thare was the potential of

imminent fratricidal war?

Mr. Hedgman. Ishombe had already. declared the katanga

to bo an Independent atate of katanga on the 11th of July, 1f

memory sarves me.

Mo. Wides. Is li also correct chat Mr. Lumumbo was tha

•person of thosa thres leaders, of those three factions, whose

potential activitios concerned the United Statas the most at

that point, particularly with ragard to the possibility of

Communist influance in the Congo?

MI. Hedgman, Mid wa referring to the September perlod

now, late August, September?

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stepal

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139200 2021 524.6000

Mr. Hides. Yes, yas.

Mr. lodgman. I would say, but there was another - there

was also - there was also great concern about the Tahombe

succession, which we did not racognizo.

Mr Wides. Right. Right.

In early Soptembar, did you recalve a message from lead-

quartors indicating that you would, on a speclal restricted

channel indicating it was for your ayes only at the station, and

talling you that a massenger whom you would sacognize would he

arriving with a mission for you?

MI. lodgman. I bollavo, yes, I recalved such a massage.

Mt. Widas. When, would you please state -

Mr. lodgman. And I bellave that was the general thrust

of the wording. I cannot, at this time, affirm with absolute

cortainty that that was exactly 1t, but that is my recollection.

Mr. Wides. When would be the best date that you would

bast be placing that time that you could givo us?

Mr. Hedgman, I bolieve it would have been around the

beginning of Septambar, but I cannot pin 1t down more than

within a wook or ten days.

Mr. Widas. About how long bofore the mussongor arrived

Hould you say the cable came, lf you can rocall?

Mr. Hadgman. I cannot recall definitively. I would quess,

and I would just quass, a faw days.

Mr. Wides, And is it accurate that the thrust of the

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Done (Au at 797) 194-8000

cable, you cannot recall particular words, was that a messenger

whom you would ¿acogniza would be coming to give you a minion

to carry out?

Mr. ledgman. As I undarstood it, he was coming with

Instructions. I did not know what type, sort of instructions.

Mr. Wides. Yas.

Mr. Mason. Can you state in your own words just exactly

what the gist of that cablo was?

Mr. Hedgman. I am

not sure that it will be exact or

oven closs, but it la my - I am going agaln, and l atress this

time now on recollection, and it 1a not a sure thing, but my

recollection was that the cable advised me that a parson whom

I would know to bo or recoqnize as an officar of the Agancy,

and I am not sure that lt said as an officer of the Agency,

someone who I would have rocognized would arrive with instruc-

tions for me.

Mr. Wides. Did the cable rofer in any way to Lumumba

that you can recall, that would involve the Lumunba problem or -

Mr. lledgman. I think, it is my racollection that de did

not safer to Lumumba in any way.

15. Widas. And with regard --

Mr. lodgman. Elther directly or hint by indiraction.

MI. Wides. With regard to the cablas for general

procedural aspects, is lt corract that it bore a spacial

rafarence or slug, I believe is the term?

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Mr. ledgman. I think, I am quassing about that. I think

it probably did, bacause that would have been a normal way to

Indicate the special handling. I ballavo the messago also was

maIked for my eyes only .

Mr. Wides. It would not have been markad --

Mr. lodgman. . and contained Instructions that I was not!

I to discusa the messago with anyone.

Mr. Baron. And that you ware to destroy the messago?

MI. Hadgman. Not at that time.

Mr. Widos. Did 1t Indicato that any commundcationa that

you sant thereafter to the lloadquarters in connection with the

imponding visit wore to be given the same slug or -

Mr. lledgman.

I am assuming that lt probably did, but i

cannot be 100 percent certain. I dont recall sending a messaga

until after I mat the gentlaman concerned.

MI. Dawson.

Maybe we could approach that a differant way.

You do recall whatever

message you received was not in the normal

course of communications with the Agency?

Mr. ledgman. Well, 1t came through Agancy communications

•channals, but 1t =- It was marked Fyes Only, for'me.

MI. Dawson. That's not unusual, necessarily?

MI. Hedgman. At that time it was more unusual than it is

today, I would say.

Mr. Widas. Was It marked RYBAT, do you know?

Mr, llodgman. I'm sorry, I don't recall.

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MI. Wides. But RYBAT usually involved a fairly wide

dissamination, or at least diasamination to others in tha

Agancy.

Mr. lledgman. Yes.

Mr. Widas. And whan you say, Eyas Only, yoursold, this

would, of course, include also the communicator who would have

ancrypted it, necessarily?

MI. ledgman. One communicator in Wanhington and one in -

Mr. Wides. Well, saturn --

Mr. ladgman. -- In Kionshasa or Leopoldvillo at that

time.

Mastengion. DE. E.20009

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Mr. Wides.

He will return in a moment to how you

dispatched communications back.

Now, at some point shortly therealtar, someone did

arrive from Washington whom you later datermined was the

massenger referred to in the cable, is that correct?

MI. ledgman. That's correct.

MI. Wides. And in terms of placing that visit, la 1t

correct that you, your bast ballet is it was in the sacond wook

.d Saptember or thereabouts?

Mr. Hedgman. I would say thereabouts, but again, I have

tried to think, triad to pin down a date on this, and I cannot,

51г.

Mr. Wides. But you place it in terms of --

Mr. ledgman. I place it in terms of an apartment which

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I rented, and I bollave that I rented that spartmant in fairly

early Saptamber.

Mr. Widas. And it was not too long aftar you had rented

1 t that thia person came?

MI. Hedgman. Yas, yes.

Could we hold on?

Mr. Widos.

Yes.

MT, lledgnan. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I was ramenhering another

moating in that apartment, and I was able to identify, pin down

the time of that meeting, ao -

Mr. Wides, Who was the massanger who arrived?

ME. ledgman. Mr. Sidney Gottlleb.

Mr. Wides. And at that time, you knew who he was?

Mr. Hedgman. I racognizad him as an officar of the

Agency.

MI. Wides. By name, or on siro, or both?

Mr. liedgman. On-sita.

Mr. Hildas. And by name or not?

Mr. lledgman. I do not recall whether I knew his name.

suspect I did, but I cannot reafflem that.

Mr. Wides. Did you know what office he worked in, or did

ho have to tell you that?

Mr. lladgman, I ballove that I knew, but this was not with

great cortaintly, that he vorked in tha what was then callad

TSD, Technical Sarvices Division. I did not know what part of

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TSD.

MI. Hidas. Do you recall how he indicated to you that

ho was the parson raferred to in the cable we have just

discussed?

Mi. lodgman. I cannot be absolutely certain, but I

ballave that he referred to the fact that I had raceived a

massage and that he was the person concerned.

Mr. Widas. And did you meet him at the airport, or did

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ME. lladgman. No.

Mr. Wides. What ware the clscumstancas under which you

first mut?

MI. Hedgman. It adams ridiculous, undar the clrcumstances,

that I cannot pin this down.

(Pause)

Mr. Widos. Can we just flat go through your recollection]

of being with him?

Mr. ledgman, I don't romember whether ha camo to the

Embassy and asked to speak to mo, whother I mat him as he came

Jout of tho Embassy, It is concuivable that i could have beon

told date and time, place, to meet him.

MI. Wides. You don't rocall.

Mr. lledgman. I don't rocall.

MI. Wides. -- making any arrangements for hia being

mat?

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MI. Hedgman. No, I did not.

ME. Wides. Do you recall where he stayed while he was in

Laopoldville?

Mr, ladgman. I ballevo he stayad only one night, I am

not

sure of that, and I think ho stayad at the hotel.

MI. Hidas, The main hotal in Leopoldvilla?

Mr. Hedgman. At the Memeling (?), if he could

get a room.

Rooms ware hard to got. He could concalvably have stayed at

my apartment, 11 ha stayed.

Mr. Wides. And your convarsations with him all took place

In the apartment that you had recently rented?

MI, Hedgman. It took place in my parsonal apartment which

I had recently rented.

MI, Hides. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Wides. Could you toll us, starting from what you

ramambor as the darliost or the first discussions you had, in

substance what message De. Gottilub brought you and the

ensuing conversation?

Mr. lledgman. It is my racollaction, that he advised me,

or my instructions were, to

eliminate Lumumba.

Mr. Wides. By aliminate, do you mean assassinate?

Mr. Hedgman, Yas. I would aay that was the, that was

ty understanding of the primary means. I don't think it was

probably limitad to that, if there was some other way of doinn

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## Page 21

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18

1

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1t.

Mi, Hidos. Of doing what?

Mr. Hodgman. Of removing him from a position of political

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threat.

MI. Wides, Has there reallatically any way in which he

WAS

not a threat as long as ha ramained alive in the Congo?

MI, Hadyman. Oh, yes. I think if he had boon arrested

a somathing lika that by the congolose officials, in my own

mind, that would have been, would have achieved it.

ME. Midas, And what did iro, cotelled Indicate with segard

to the possibility of physically eliminating him?

Mr. liedgman. It was my understanding that that was

probably axpected of ma.

Mr. Wides. Yes.

And what did he tell you with regard to how that might be

accomplishad?

Mr. Hedgman.

Well, I think he-- cortainly, as you are

aware, he brought some biological agents. I assume that that's

the correct word. But in any case, poisonous agents with him,

which he passad to me.

As I recall, he brought them with him. That's not

absolutaly certain, but quite probable, In my opinion, that he

had hand-carried them.

Mr. Baron.

Those were lethal biological substances?

Mr. Hedgman. Yes. That was my understanding, as a

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non-oxpart. Howsver, in thinking it over, I ballove that 1--

thare was - this was not a sina qua non that I amploy this.

If there ware another method, another way, it would have bean

acceptable.

It was also my rocollaction, lat me just try and think for

a momont haro -- I can't remembor where I was going. ¿ had a

point I wanted to make.

Ho11, 1f 1t comes back, I will think of it.

Mr. Dawson. Would it help you to have her road back that

portion where you were just testllying?

Mr. lladgman. I don't think so.

Anyway, the biological aubstance, or specimens, what hava

you, I think It was up to my judgment, and if thare rare a

bettor way. cortainly, the point I now recall was in no way,

at I implamentod

these instructions, no way could it be traced

back to the United States. It had to be a way which could not

Do tracod back to the Unitad States, althor to an American

the United States government.

MI. Wides. With rogard to the materials, you said lt ls

your best recollection that he brought them with him?

Mr. lodgman. I boliovo ha did.

Mr. Widas. Yos.

Do you recall having a discussion with him about the

materials as to how to use them and what traces they would leavel

and the lika?

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## Page 23

strats, 5. 611949-98105, D.C.5000)

barone (Asso 208}

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MI. Hadgman. I recollect discussing uses of them.

Mr. Wides, Do you recall having the - were there also,

In addition to the lothal agents themselves, relatod paraphenalia

such as a mask, or gloves, or a syringe?

MI. llodgman. It la my best recollection there ware rubberl

glovas, a mask and a syringo.

Mr. Wides. Is it your recollection that these did not

arriva batora Mr. Gottllab came; that 18, you did not have

natariala arriving at the Station and yourself wondering what

they were all about prlor to Mr. Gottllab's arrival?

Mr. lladgman. That is corroct. I do not balleva thay

came prior to Mr. Cottlied's arrival.

M5. Wides.

Do you racall while you ware discussing this

with him that you had in front of you some of the paraphanalla

such as the syringe, or the mask, or the gloves, that they

were thore with you?

Mr. Hedgman. I believe we did.

Mr. Hides. And he was

there for only one night?

Mr. lladgman. That's my recollection, but that in lar

rom

sure.

MI. Wides. Or one or two nights?

Mr: lodgman. Yas. It's far from -I -- chat's my

recollection, but I would not wish to affirm that.

Mr. Wides. So alther hu hrought them with him or they

would have had to arrivo assantially simultaneougly with his

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visit in order for you and him to have had them essentlally

with you while he was discussing then, la that right?

MI. ladgman. Yes, I bollave, as :l stated, that he brought

then with him or -

Mr. Wides. Or if they, if he did not, that they rould

havo arrived while he was there? In other words, are you more

cartain that they were thare at the time you had the discussions

with him'--

MI. Hedgman, Yas.

Mr. Hides. - than you are that he brought them, even

though it is your bast ballet that he did?

MI. Hedgman. I believe ho brought chen.

MI. Dawson. Do you recall his giving you any Instructlons

on their handling, the reason that you had rubber gloves?

MI. lledgman. Yas. I recolloce that I told him that i

didn't know anything about the handling of such things.

Mi. Dawson. And do you recall what he told you about

that?

Mi. lodgman. No, I don't really.

Mr, Dawson. Did he say to you that in order to handle

this subatance you had to have the rubber gloves on?

Mr. Hodgman. That's an assumption I have mado as a result.

d my rocollection that there were rubber gloves. But I cannot

be sure.

Mt. Wides, Let me go back to the statement that you made

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## Page 25

Tant (Aлx6 7071 296-8004

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t119.a509, 0.6.50008

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Chat there was more than one agent.

Do you racall definitely that there was more than one?

Mr. lledgman. That 1s my recollection, yos, 81r.

Mr. Widas. Now, do you mean by that there was more than

one dosaga, or more than one vial or pill of the same kind of

lothal agent, or that there wara several dirtarent kinda?

Mr. lodgman. I ballovo there wore two or more lethal

agonta, types of lethal aganta.

MI. Wides. Do you recall him montloning the word

botuliam at all? Does that Iing a bell?

MI. ladgman. I cannot ba cartain of that.

Mr. Widor. Do you rocall --

Mr. lodgman. I think that 1t l8 possible, but l cannot

bo cartain.

MI. Wides..

Does 1t ring some sort of a ball?

Mr. ledgman. Botulism rings a ball, but I am not - I

know what It is, therefore

It 1s, thare is an Agatha Christo

murder mystary baser on it, or something like that.

Mí. Nidas. Do you rocall whether some o! them ware

poisons in the nature of cyanide and the like, or whother thay

were all represanted to be biological agents; that 1s, a virus

of a deadly gorm of some sort?

Mr. Hadaman. I ballove they were biological agants.

Mr. Midas. Do you recall whather any ware reforred to as

a virus?

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3.E, BA19,nelon, D.C. 20008

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Mr. Hedgman. No, I do not, air. I don't know. There

may hava baen.

Mr. Hidas. Since there were diffarent typas, I rould

Infor or assume that thore was some discusgion as to why you

might uas one of the other in the lirat attempt?

MI, Madgman. I ballevo

Mr. Widos.

What can you recall of that?

Mr. ladgman. I ballovo that. I asked or raisad the point.

and again, I cannot contirm this with absolute certainty, but

I bollave I Ialsed the point that poisons left traces in the

human body, which could ba found on autopsy, and that I ballavo

that I was assured that these agants, I'm going to soler to them

as that bacause I don't know the correct term, terminology

MI. Wides. Lethal, these are lothal agants?

MI. Hedgman. Lethal agents, would be normal traces found

in peopla that die of cartain diseases.

MI. Wides. And this would have boon with regard to all

of than of only one of them?

Mr. lodgmar. That's why I hositated on the botullam,

•because that would fit, of course.

Mr. Wides. Was this assuranco given in ranard to all of

than, or one in particular?

Mr. lladgman. I cannot be absolutely cartain of that. I

believe all of them, but 1 -=

Mr. Widos. Well, wouldn't you have asked which ond you

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3.E., Mornineron, D6 11308

prior (180 2071 120-7000

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should usa, or whether there was any different among them in

terms of preference from the point of vlar of affectiveness or

sase of use, or would you have just bean laft essentially closing

your oyas and picking one? Wouldn't you have had some discug-

s10n?

Mr. Hedgman. I would think so. But I cannot - don't

ballove I can pin this down.

ME. IldoB. Do you recall any discussion with lor, corellabl,

as to difforancas in the method of administration, preferred

method of administration?

Mi, Hedgman. I remanbar there was a rafarance to putting.

one of them in possibly toothpaste which would be unad.

Mr. Wides. How would that he accomplished, with a

syringo, or -

MI, llodgman. I don't ramember. I think so.

Mr. Hides. Do you recall specifleally that three was a

syringe as part of the equipment?

Mr. lodgman. I belleve thore was, but I sure wouldn't

19

Is take my 11fe on It. But 11 I said I hallove there was a

20

il. syringo, that's my racolloction.

2)

Mr. Wides. Now, just to go back for a moment, you said

22

bofore that he sald that your instructions were if possible to

eliminate Lumumbs, and that you thought that one possible way

24

or the way he was particularly addressing was in the sonsa of

25

assassination?

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e1p tus1 Street.

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Pool l#+ +6 707) 585-4004

Mr. liadgman. That's corract.

Mr. Widas. I take it that once you started discuasing

thase lothal agants, there was no doubt in your mind that the

kind of elimination ha was there particularly to discues was

k111ing Lumumba?

MI. ladgman. Thair was no doubt in my mind that this was

one of the way, and probably what they thought was the only way

that would work. But as the Chiet of Station, I still, even

though a juntor Chief of Station, I had a cortain amount of

froodom of choica, I falt, at the time.

In other words, particularly since the emphasis was that

it could not be traced back to the U.S. government or the

United States.

Mr. Hides, Did you see -

I"m sorry.

MI. Baron.

The purposa of designing a lethal adant that

loft the tracos of a normal diseasa

rathar than a poison was

exactly that, wasn't it?

MI, lladgman. Yes, I would assume ao.

Mr. Baron. To avoid --

Mr. Hedgman. It Booms to ma that was one of the points

that camo out.

Mr. Baron. To avold attribution to the United States?

Mr. ladyman. To avoid attribution, really.

MI. Wides, Did you see any of the paraphonalia, do you

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rocall, that 18 apart from just s package that was never opaned,

did you avar at that time, did you ma a mask or gloves?

Mr. Hedgman. It is my recollection that I did, but I

cannot be absolutely cartain of that.

Mr. Baron. Has this a surgical gaure mask?

MI. Hadgman. It 1s my recollaction, l have that sacollac-

tion, and yot I could not - 1 am being asked to swear to this,

of course, and I swear that lt is my racollaction.

Ms. Wides. Do you racall that tho matarials vare in liqula

form, in a vial or bottle, or --.

Mr. Hadgman. I do not Incall, sir.

Mi. Wides. Dut. I assume, lf your best recollection is

there was discussion of a syringe, 'that prosumably it was in

liquid form?

Mr. ladgman. I would assume so.

Mr. Hidas. Or something that would be turned into a

Iiquid.

Mr. Hedgman. I would assume go, but I honestly cannot

tall you what form they were in. i

Mr. Wires. And your best racollection was there were two

or three or more?

Mr. lladgman. Yes, two or thres.

ME. Midas. Did /pr. rottliob indicate to you, was there

any roforence to the prior use

or attempted use of these agents

for tho samo purpose of assassination, to his knowledge, by tha

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## Page 30

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27

Agency?

Mr. Hadgman.

To my recollaction, he did not rolar to any

pagt use or knowledge of such.

MI. Widos. Did he relar to any prospective or posalbla

use alsswhere in the world?

Mr. Hedgman. Not to my racollection, I don't belleva ha

did. It would not hava bean normal for him to diacuss that with

то .

510 Fust S10079, St., MANagIOn, D.C. COPOS

19-81 308) 164-6000

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Mr. Wides. Do you recall, by any chance, the name of

fidel Caatro coming up In the course of this?

MI. ladgman. Almost certainly it did not.

Mr. Wides.

Now, with ranard to the posalbility of other

means, f1rst with ragard to the possibility of othar moans of

k11ling Lumumba, did you diacuss with him any othar ways of

arranging Lumumba's death other chan using these lethal agents.

such as shooting, or

Mr. Hedgman. I think I may woll have suggested that as

a possibility, shooting.

Mr. Wides. Did you

discuss with him specific other ways

of trying to eliminate him as a political threat, or is lt

simply your assumption that if you had found some other way,

that might have boon an alternative option for you?

Mr. Hedgman. Would you rephrass that question, or repaat.

1t?

ME. Widos. YOu sald' that your undorstanding was that

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r.

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your inatructiona ware to aliminata Lumumba, and that one way

of doing this, which was discussed in concrete form, and which

you wore glvan the means for, was killing him or arranging hia

death, but that that was only one possibility.

Did you diacuss, in fact, with Dr. Dotellebiany other waye

of eliminating Lumumba, non-lethal ways?

Mt. lladgman.

I may well -- non-lethal ways?

MT. Wides. Yes.

Mr. llodgman. I cannot recall with cartainty on that. It

1s my recollection that he was, elther was or was vary shortly

theidafter under the protection of the United Mationa in the

Prima Minister's combination residence and office. Certainly

ho was thars aftar 14 Septemher.

Mr. Baron, Just to clarity this, che moans of

MI. liedgman. 1960.

Mr. Wides. Let him finish the anewer. I don't know 1f

that 1s fully Iesponsive.

What is your best recollection as to whether you did or

did not discuss any othar way of eliminating Lumumba other than

assassination?

MI, lledgman. I cannot give you assurance. I have

tried to go back in my mind on that.

Mr. Widoa. You can't recall one way or the othar?

Mi. Hedgman. I cannot. recall one way or the other for

cartainty, I know that it -- somewhere along the line in thare!

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29

I thought of shooting as a posalbility, but whether I diacuanad

1t with Dr. Cottllab.:r am not sura.

Mr: Widas, Hall, I understand that 1s a possibility that.

you discussed other means of arranging his death, or you may

have discussed other means of arranging his death -

Mr. ladgman. I may have.

Mr. Widos. = than use of agento, but earlier you said

you considared your instruction to be sliminating him, and that

one posalbility was through his death, but there ware other

posalbilitlas. And I am asking you now whether you rocall

discussing any non-lathal ways to sliminate him as a political

threat with /05. Gottileb in connection with your Instructions?

Mr. lladgman, I cannot ba cartain that I did, alr.

There obviously was the possibility that his Congolese political

enemles would gain control of him in some manner, got him in

thair, under their control, in which case he would have been

neutralized.

MI. Wides, But In regard to your Instructiona to do what!

you could to eliminate the threat, with sagard to action that

you would take as the Station Chief, l take 1t all you discug-

sad with Dr. Gottliab wore means of arranging his death from the

point of vior of what you could do?

MI. lladgman. I cannot affirm that.

MI. Wides. But you don't Incall discussim anything

else?

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MI. Hedgman. No.

MI. Wides. Now, what was your firat reaction when Dr.

Gotellab, whon it first: bacame clodi to you what loe, cottliab?

was discussing with you in regard to -=

off the record.

(Discussion off the record. )

Mr. Wilos, Back on the record.

What was that last question?

(The Raporter read back the last question.)

Mr. Wides. - afforts to kill Patrice Lumumba?

Mr. ledgman. I would say great surprise. I don't know

whether shock would be the word. It's a little hard to recollect

ona's anotions, but it was

an emotional, an amotional reaction.

I think.

Mr. Kildes. Did you raise with him the quastion of

authorization of such instructions to you?

MI, liedgnan. Yes, I did, That's my quite atrong recol-

lection, that I did.

MI. Hidas. What do you recall In assence was what you

said to him?

Mr. ledgman. In assance, I think I must havo, and andin

this is, 1 am quessing as to what my wording was, must have

pointed out that this was not a common or usual Agency tactic,

and I may have probably said that I nover heard of it balna

done, which I had not, never in my training or provious work

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31

the Agency had I over heard any refarances to auch, in sy,

rocollection at least, such methods. And it la my recollection

I asked on whose authorlty those instructions vere issued.

Mr. Widas. And what did Mr. Gottlleb reply?

Mi. Hadgman. It is my racollaction that ha identitiad

the frasident, and I cannot - the President of the linited

Statas -- and I cannot recall whether he said "the Proaldent,"

or whether he idantified him by name.

Mr, Wides, But it is your best rocollection that ha said

somathing more apocific than highest authority, that ls, the

Presidant, or the White House, or President Elsanhover?

M5. Hesigman.

I want to det this one right, because I

raaliza it'a important.

MI. Wides. Lat's start, excuse me, lot's start with the

most basic question.

Is it your recollaction that he clearly told you lt was

an authority higher than the Director

of the cIA?

Mr. Hadgman. I'm not sure that he put it that way:

I said, I bellove --

M5. Hides.

But I don't mean that he usad those words,

but is it claar -

Mr. Hedgman. That was my understanling, that 1t -

Mr. Widos. That is was higher than the nirector?

MI. lodgman. Yes.

Mr. Widus. Can you recall whether ho said "the President"

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## Page 35

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or "Presidont Eisenhower?"

Mr. lodgman. I cannot rocall whother he just sald, whather

he said "the President" or whether he said "President Eisenhow-

oI."

6

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25

Mr. Hidus. But it was

ond of those two, is your bast

recollection?

Mr. Hedgman. I would say almost cortainly, but not -

In othor words, I am at ahout the socond laval of affirmation

hero.

Mr. Widea. If not that specitio' -

Mr. Hadgman. It was my undorstanding it was the

Presidont, yes.

Mr. Wides. And did he also, apart from what you would

have inferred would be implied by that, did ho also say in any

way something that referred to It being approved by the Director

of the Agency?

MI, lledgman. I have tried to go back in my mind on that.

and I think, I bellove-- but agaln now, this one, it's pretty

100se in my mind - it was something to the affoct that the

President had instructed the Director.

Mr. Wides. Your underatanding then was that thous

Inscructions wore instructions coming to you from the offico

of the Prosidant?

MI. Hedyman, That's corract.

Mr. Wides. Or that he had instructed the Agency, and they,

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1

ware passed on to you?

2

MI. Hodgman. That's right.

3

Mr. Dawson.

You are not the least unclear whether or

not you came aware with a very clear imprassion that the Presi-

5

dant's name had boan invoted in some fashion?

6

Mr. lodgman, Yes.

I came -- cortainly that in my

7

rocollection.

8

Mr. Dawson. You have no doubt about that?

9

10

Mr. Wides. At the time?

Mr. ladgman. At the time I cortalnly lalt that I was

11

undor Instructions from the President, yos.

12

13

Mr. Wides. All right.

MI. Dawson. You ware loss certain as to whather or not

14

tha Director of Contral Intelligenco's name was Invokod as

15

authority?

16

--

Mr. ledgman. Bacauso the other one seamed highor, and --

1'1

1'9

Mr. Dawson. Okay.

Mr. Hedgman. And I think in my own mind I could not

imaging the Agancy taking such

action without clearing it with

20

the President.

21

Mr. Wides. Do you recall asking somethina to the effect.

22

of where did this brilliant idea come from, or who had such a

25

brilliant idea?

24

Mr. lledgman. I think I made a comment like that

25

yesterday, but I am not sure those ware my words at all. I think

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## Page 37

AMORA (A174 1931 394-400K

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TOP SECRET

I was -- I was being a bit facetlous in that sense yesterday

when I said that, but, I mean, I think I aakad why, who.

MI. Wides. And your baat recollection then la he sald in

affect, tho Prosident, that 1s, he said elthar the President or

President Eisanhowar has instructed or told the Diractor that

this is what la wantad?

Mr. Hedgman. I think he aald told the Director. This la

mean, aftar all, tha President would not pick up the phone

and dial/Dr, rottilabland say, hey, I've got a little job for

you.

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Mr. Dawson. Though it may be an assumption on your

part

Mi. lledgman. That's right. I am -yas.

Mr. Dawson. But you are cluar as far as the President

has told you to do this?

Mí. Hedgman. Gantlemen, after fifteen yoars I cannot be

100 percent cartain, but I hava always, since that date, had

the impression in my mind that these orders had come foom the

Preaident.

Mr, liides. And your impression, your recollection is at

that tima, after your discussion with pr, Goetllah, that you that.

at that time, had the very cloat impression that theid were

instructions from the Pragident?

1r. Hedgman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Baron. In your mind, is lt more likaly that Gottlien i

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usad the words "the Prosidant" or "President Eisenhover" than

2

It 19 that ha used some auphemiam?

3

Is that correct?

4

Mr. lodgman.

I balleve that 15 30.

Mr. Widas, That is your bost recollection?

G

Mr. lenigman. That is my best racollection.

Mr. Wides. With regard to what you understood your

Instructions to bo, 1s it a falr summary to say that your

8

9

Instructions were to datarmine in what way you could use these

10

agents, with the posslbility that you might think of a better

11

way in your mind, but that if you could use there agents to

1:?

assassinato Lumumbo in a way which would not implicate tha

Unitod Status, that you wore under inatructions to do so?

Mr. Hedgman. I would qualify that slightly. I would

14

15

qualify it in that in operationa normally you never use greater

16

force or greater effort than l9 necessary to accompliah the

1'

18

purpose. I would think, and I think I thought at the time, that

If there vere some way that ho could be ramoved from a poaition

Is l of power and threat which we, most of us thought was a thradt

ito the Unitad States by him, that that would have been satis

20

factory.

7:1

Howaver, it was clear that peonla wore thinking in terne

24:

of his physical removal by the equipment I was givan, the

2"

agents, the lethal agents which were given to mo.

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Mr. Wides, Hall, ware you not imprassed with the fact

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that someone in the Agency had litarally arrived at your door-

stop with lathal means and indicated that the President had

Inatructed the Agency to direct Lumunba's removal, and that it

was in that connection

that he was arriving with these lethal

means?

6

MI. Hadgman. Oh, yes.

7

Mr. Widas. Well, I take 1t --

8

ME, ladyman, This was not a common occurrence.

Mr. Wides. I take it you thought you had authority to

10

usa than, and that had you done so the noxt day, of vary shortly

11

thareafterwards, that that was clearly withln the authority

that - wall, off the record.

14

13

(Discussion off the racord.)

Mr. Wides, Subsequent to your discussion with Dr.

15

Gottlleb, did you seek confirmation of the instructions that

ho had given you by further communications with the Agency?

!1:

15

MI. Hedgmas. In my recollection that I sent a massage.

whether I Identiflod Gottllablly name of not, I do not recall.

I but that I asked for some form of confirmation that ho was the

20

propor messenger and that his instructions wore --

Mr. Widas, Correct?

12%

MI. lledgman.

Here corruct.

MI. Widos, Did you recolva a tosponse to that mesgago?

Mr. lodgman. I - before I continue, I would say that

24

this is the best of my tacollection that I sent such a mesgane.

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Mr. Widos. Yas. Hall, excuse mo, did you --

MI. lodgman. I cannot, I cannot affirm absolutely and

positivaly, but I have a rocollection that I sent such a

message.

Mr. Wides, Do you have a fairly strong recollaction that

sitar spoaking to Cottilab, because le involved auch a momentous

¡asue, that you folt in nood of somo further guidance or

confirmation?

Mr. lodgman. Yes. I was worried about it.

Mr. Widas. And the most likaly course for you to have

taken would have boon to seck confirmatlon hy cable? I take

It you don't recall any roquest in a faca to face axchange with

any Agency person for confirmation?

Mr. lladgman, That's correct. Thore was no face to face.

other than my discusslons with DE, Gottliab.]

MI. Hides. And your recollaction, although you aro not

certain, is you sent a cable secking confirmation?

Mr. lodgman. That's correct.

MI. Hides. Do you have a recollection of racelvina a

response to that?

Mr. lodgman. Again, a racollaction, but I belleve l

raceived a reply which I Interpratted to mean you, that he was

the messengor and his instructions were, were logal Inntructions

In the senso of baing - legal, of course, would not. be a

correct ..

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Mr. Wides. Duly authorized?

Mr. Hadgmen. Duly authorized.

Mr. Wides. Now, after you recolved them, at least after

you received that confirmation, 1g it correct that you felt you

had the authority thenceforth to use these lethal agants to

assassinata Lumumba and that had you done so any time thareafter

Hit would have been within the authorlty of your instruetions?

Mr. liedgman.

I think so, but it is possible, and I cannot

I have thought about this a good doal last night. It is possi

ble that the instructions may have bean that I was to explore

thass whore avallablo, but I was to gut linal confirmation

befora - I cannot be 100 parcent sure.

Mr. Wides. Are you raising that as a posalbility without

any recollection of that at all? is that what you are doing

Its regard to this last statemant?

Mr. Hedgman, Yes, I suppòss that's it. I don't have a

l firm recollection.

Mr, Wides, You don't have any?

Mr. lodgman. I have tried to determine in my own mind

whethor I had an absolute free hand at that time.

MI. Wides, Well, lot's take it one stap at a time.

Do you have any recollection of any

mossadd during

(Coitiseb'aj discussion with you or thereafter in offact putting

hold, having a sort of a go, no-go, hold

on your use of the

polaons? Do you have any racollection of that?

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ME, ladgman. I do not, but may I add there, I know that

I sent aeveral messages about potential access.

Mr. Wides. Yos.

MI. Hedgman. Which makes me think

Mr. Baron. Potontial access to Lumumba?

ME. Hedgman. Yas, which makes me think I was perhaps

aupposed to clear it.

Mr. Wides. Could thoss also simply have hoen proqress

reports, even if there was no hold?

Mr. lodgmen. That's possible, yas.

Mr. Wides. And do you have a recollection, although not

claar one, that in fact you thought it was up to you at that

point and that you could yo, if you thounht the situation was

CorIect?

Mr, lledgman. If I had to decide botween those two things

I think I probably thought I had it, but I cannot absolutely

confirm that, sir.

MI. Wides. I undarstand that, but

you have some recollar-:

tion that you thought you had it, and you have no recollection

l-as thinking there was a hold? You simply cannot be, you art

not absolutely certain that you thought you had a go ahead,

is that a falo summary of your testimony?

Mr. Hedgman, Yos, I think that would be corract.

Mr. Wides, Now, do you rocall, and l am coming back to

the massagus in a moment, do you rocall sometime in the

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begianing of october, when a iMe. Justin O'Donnall arrived e

the Station?

Mr. Hedgman. I don't racall the time, but lt was perhaps.

it would have bean about that time.

Mr. Wides. Was It several weake after Di, Gottlleb's

arrival?

MI. Hodgman.

I cannot. put a timoframe within weeks on 1t.

I would have quassad yos.

Mr. Wides.

Was it clearly after Dr. cottlleb?

Mr. Hergman.

Yes.

MI. Widea. I bellove you indicated to us in preliminary

diacussions that you had some intimation or anticipation that

his arrival -- strike that.

An I correct that you had some knowledge he was goina to

aIIlva bafors ho appeared; that 1s, by name you know that he

was coming to the Station bafore ha actually physically got

there?

Mr. llodgman. I bullevo that lo correct.

Mr. Wides.

And I bollave you indicated yesterday in

preliminary diacusgions with us that in antleipatina his

arrival, you had some

impression that ha was to aid in the

ramoval or the alimination

of Lumunba, 1s that correct?

Mr: lodgman. I don't balisve - I may have misstated

myBolf if I sald that yoatorday. I think lt was more whan he

arrived that I was advised of that.

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Mr. Hidas. I 809.

Mr. lladgman. There may have bean a massago in that

channel indicating that he was arriving, which would have made

me think that he was related with it. I cannot be certain.

Ms. Hidas. Do you recall indicating to us yastarday

that when ho arrived initlally one thought you had was that

parhaps you were going to be replaced as statlon Chief, in your

first job as Station Chief, because you had been dragging your

lest, or not acting expaditiously enough on Lumumba?

Mr. ledgnan. I recall saying that yesterday.

Mr. Widas. What ls your recollaction today?

Mr. Hedgman. Put it -- may I go off the rocord a moment?

MI. Widos. Yos.

(Discussion off the record.)

MI. Hides.

Lot's go back on the record.

Let me phrase the question this way, Mr. Hedgman:

when

Mr. O'Donnell arrived, I take it as a somewhat junior station

Chlaf, and in your flrst job as a Station Chlef, that you

:

considerad whether there was dissatisfaction with your handling i

Hof the job, or the nood for more exporienced personnel there,

is that correct?

Mr. Hedgman. I think that 19 possibly true.

Mr. Wides. Now, do you recall whether one of the

thoughts that want through your mind was that parhaps tha

Headquarters was, the Agoncy was dissatisflad with foot-draguino

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42

or the lack of action on your part in implementina be gote late

instructions? Was that one of the thoughts that went through

your mind as " far as you can recall?

Mr. Hedgman. I cannot say that with certainty now. It

1s vary possible.

Mr. Wides, Do you have any rocollection that that want

through your mind even if you can't be cartain?

MI. lodgman. To rapeat, that ho

Mr. Wides. That you thought -

MI. ledgman. That I thought that they were dissatlafled

with my handling of that?

Mr. Wides. Because you had not yet eliminatad Lumumba

or taken further stapo to do 8o?

Mr. Hedgman.

I Just can't, I Just would like to back off

that one because I cannot be cortaln. I knew that obviously

they had sent a man who had much more experiance than l, and

yet it was clear that ho was working. for me, bacause ! was

not reliovad as Chief of Station. They would never

have sent

him there under me and then awitched the positions.

Mr. Wides, Prior to his coming -- to return now to tha

pariod when you sent the confirmation, request for confirmation

do you racall slugging 1t back through a particular channal?

Mr. ledgman. There was some apacial channal, and i --

because it was handlad differently than any other normal

massage. For example, it was not put on a rogular cablo form,

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which, you know, you have saveral copies for your various

Ellas. And it was my recollection that I parsonally carried

the message to the communicator to encrypt, and that was worded

In a double-talk way that even the communicator would not

necassarily know what it was about.

Mr. Wides. If your communication to the lleadquartarg an

thair communication back were in somewhat amblquous tarma.

particularly your question, auch as la the person, ls this

parson the mossanger, and are his instructions accurate, and

If the reply was essentlally yes to both questiona, how would

that have assured you that his invocation of Prosidential

authority was accurate, or aven his Invocation of the authority

of the Director was accurate without your indleating in your

cable in some way what the Instructions were?

MI. Hedgman. I suppose that - I doubt that I would have

Indicated in the cable the authority elted because of the

nature of the instructions.

Perhaps I was much

more naive then

than many of us aro now, but I assumed when I raceived ingtruc-

tions that they came, they were duly authorizad Inatructlong.

It was clear that the man - I had recelved the message

that someone was going to contact me with Instructions, which

was most unusual. I mean, why weren't they sant in writing,

in other words, by cable or by dispatch. And it arrived, and

1t arclved, a man whom I recognized as an Acancy officor. and

ho gave me instructions. I went back through this very special

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channle and said, you know, I don't ramembar how I worded it

It was a doubletalk thing, but I came away, I was convinced that

yos, it was right.

Now, there

Is no way I could know or be absolutely certaini

18 those Instructions amanated from the President, but s, i tooki

this parhaps as an act of faith.

Mr. Wides.

I understand.

Whon you wore discussing with er. Gottllaby during his stay

of a day, parhapa one or two days, what else can you recall vas

discussed by the two of you?

Mr. lodgman. I don't havo a recollectlon, ¡ probably

wanted to know about where my varlous frlends were and what was

happening and the sort of gossip that goes around.

MI. Wides. Do you recall any diacussion as to whether

Mr. Bissoll was witting of this particular minsion or Instruc-

tion?

19

20

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25

MI. Hedgman. I cannot be certain of that. I think 1

would have assumed.

Mr. Wides. Not being certain, what is your boat recollac-

tion as to whether his name came up in regard to the instructiona?

Mr. ludgman. I have no racollection whether hia nama

camt up. Certainly I would have assumed that he would have

bean involved, and it is antiraly posalble that his name didn't.

come up.

15. Wides. Do you recall any other names coming up besideb

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the reference to the Whito Houas and possibly the axpress

2

rafarance to the Diractor, possibly?

ME. lodgman, I don't ballove so.

Mr. Wides. Do you rocall MI. "weedy's name cominy is

5

Mr. ladgman, No, I do not. But it la entliely possible

7

that it did, In that he was my direct chiet.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall any other aspocte of the

8

discussion, whethor rolated to the mission or not, in regard to

what his job was, what ho was doing at that time, your problema

10

1n tha Congo, or Mr. Lumumba's particular threat?

1]

MI. lledgman. I probably discussod with him what I saw to

12

bo a very severa threat, sarlous threat, l should say, to

1'

U.s. position in Africa. It was my bellef that the sovlets wire

14

"mking a major affort to socure a bridgehead, to take over one

15

of the two or three largest, and potentially richast countries

16

In Africa.

1'1

Mr. Widas. Do you recall anything regarding any discusalch

19

20

regarding access that you then had? Now, I am salerring to your

discusalans with Goethis in che way of agents you might

use who might be able to prevent attribution to American and

90

forth?

21

Mo. lledgman. I havo a racollaction, I hava a recollaciion

22

that I citod one agent's name, or perhaps not namo, but

described him as a parson who would have accasa.

24

Mr. Hides,

To Lumumbs directly?

25

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1

Mr. Hedgman. To probably have accasa to - cartainly

2

would sava accoss to Lumumba, and might be able to use such

3

agents.

4

Mr. Widas. Was there any discussion of instructing this

agant how one would go about instructing the agent to use the

lothal agenta botween yoursell and Dr. Gottllab?

7

Mr. lodgman. Probably, but I cannot ba sure of that.

8

bacause I would - I know I did not know how to use tham, so

9

I must havo asked how to use them.

10

Mr. Widas. Do you Iscall subsequent to your - let me

11

go back.

12

How would you charscterize, of if you can ramember the

13

substance of what you sald, what was your responge to Dr.

14

i Gottlieb having been given those instructions. having been taken

15

somewhat aback, according to your testimony, having asked about

16

authority and having been asgured that it came from the tito

1T

House, what was the essence of the rasponse that you gave Dr.

1t:

I Gottilab that he would have brought back to loadsuartare himselfe

19

Mr. liedgman. I think that it was that I would explore.

20

and again I am saying I think, that I would explore thie.

41

Mr. Wides, Did you give him any Indication that you would

22

not carry out the instructions?

Mr. liedgman. No, I don't belluve I sald that. Mut 1

24

bolievo I pointed out that it was -- it would be extremely

25

difficult to carry out these instructions, meetiny the criteria

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that wo could no way be traced back to the United Statas.

Mi. Wides. Hould it be a tali summary that he left the

meeting - wall, you can't tostify for him -- that it would

havo been roasonable for him to laave the meetina with tha

impression that you would, if possible, carry out those

instructions?

Mr. Hadgman. I couldn't spoculate as to whother he thought

I would or not.

Mr. Hidas. But would that have been a falt impression

for him to take away from your comments?

Mr. lledgman. I think it would bo a falr impression that

he would take away the thought that I was goinn to look into

it and try and figure if thare was a way, but I do remember --

I shouldn't say rememher -- I bellave I strested the dieticulty

of trying to carry out such an operation:

Mr. Wides. But since he had given you inatructions that

the President wanted this, would it have been fair for him to

carry away from your convargation

the understanding that if

you thought it could be done, if you found a way, that it would

then go forward, you would then go forward?

Mr. ladyman. Yes.

As I said earlier, I cannot be certain that ! -- that

he would have gone away with the idea that I would immediately

do

1t, or that I would

suck further authorization.

Mr. Wides. Now, subsequent to the sanding of the requent

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for confirmation, and the rocalpt of tha cable which you have

a recollection of, both confirming the instructions, what

further staps did you take in the congo, and what further

communications did you have with Haadquarters regarding the

mission?

Lat's take that one stop at a time.

What further stops did you take prlor to Mr. O'Donnelli

coming?

MI. lledgman. I balieve that I querled the agent who had

access to Lumumba, and his entourage, in detail about just what

that accoss, what access he actually had, an opposed to spoakini

to people. In other words, did he have accosa to the bathroon.

did ho have accoss to the kitchen, things of that sort.

I have a recollection of having querled him on that without.

specifying why I wanted to know this.

Mr. Wides. Did you take any other stops to find out the

pattern of Patrice Lumumba's activitles as they might relate

to attempting to put these lethal ayents into food or toothpaste?

Mr. Hodgman. That's what I, in assanco, I think what !

#was doing there was - but without

specklying why.

15: Hides. Did you recall any other stops? what did you

do with the materials themselves?

Mr. lladgman.

Na I rocall, I placed then In the hottom

drawer of my safa, to which I had access.

Mr. Wides.

No one elsa had the combination, or did anyonu

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elsa have the combination to tho sale?

Mr. lladgman. Yas, I belleve my secretary had the

combination.

Mr. Baron.

Did you discuss this with your secretary?

Mr. lledgman. I most cartainly did not.

Mr. Widas. Was she in the habit of occasionally opening

il the sale rather than yourself?

Mr. Hedgman. Yas.

Mr. Wides. What would have happoned, or what did you

anticipate would happen, if she had opened the safe and seen

these packages?

MI. lodgnan. hell, I belleva they wore probably wrappad

or sealed in an anvalope or paper marked probably - 1 put that.

and this 19 again probably - Eyes Only, so for mysolf

Mi. Wides.

You didn't feal it nocossary to

indicate to

her that there ward some packages here and I don't want you to

Hopen them or to look at them?

Mr. Hedgman.

Il I gualed it and put Fyes Only on it,

she would not have.

Ms. Wides. Did you sand subsequent cables back or have

furthor communication with Headquarters after the request for

confirmation?

Mr. lodgman. Yes. It Is my recollection I sent several.

two or three, something like that.

Mr. Wides. What was the substance of each of those?

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MI. Medgman. I cannot give you the substance, I beliave

they ware in the nature of progress reports.

MI. Hides. With regard to your finding an accoas?

MI. lladgman. Yos.

MI. Wides. Do you recall any cables back from Headquarters

altar the first one indicating the affirmation?

Mr. Hadgman. I bellove there was. If I had to bat money

on this one, I would say, I would bat on the fact that there

was at loast one or two more back to me.

MI. Wides. What is your heat recollection as to the

nature of those?

Mr. lledgman.

I don't really hava a racollection. !

recall. that there was one

more, than one cable, more than

two cables, the one saying that there is the man coming, and

thare was the one which I recall saying yes, that's right.

and you are to follow out his instructions or his instructions

are duly issued or something to the affect. And I believe

there

was one, one or tro ofter cables, but I don't have à recollaction

of their contents. Probably querying for further explanation.

but

I cannot confirm that.

Mr. Hides. Let me ask you the following question: you

have Indicatad that, I bollove you have testiflad, and correct

me

11 I am wrong, but I have a recollection that you at the time

thought you had the authority to go ahead with the use of the

lathal agants if you thought it could be dond within the guidelinen

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givan you, You have ralsed the posalbility, although you have

no rocollection, that thare might have baon a hold and a need

for further approval.

Is it fair to say that you understood that this was well

beyond the exploratory stage as a concalvable option that the u.s!

6

might take, and that you understood that from the highest

7

authority, that is the Presidant, there were Instructions

8

to carry out the assassination of Lumumba if it could be dono

9

without attribution, but that leadquartara might have oxpected

10

somo indication from you of how you were going to do lt prior

11

to the actual Implomontation? Is that a fair summary of what

12

you are telling ua?

Mr. lodgman. Will you ropeat that? could she --

14

Mr. Hides. That you had received instructions from the

15

1€

highest authority, that is the President, down through the Agency.

18 that is possible, because of their concern about Mr. Lumumba

1'1 to use lethal agents to assassinate him, but that you might haves

It you had racalved the authority to do that, and thore was a

direction to do it li possible, but that you might have sent back

20

to Headquarters, In guarded languago, an Indication of how you

in I were going to go about it, or that you had decidud that it could

2%

be dona in a feasible way before 901ny

ahead with it.

2:

Is that a fair summary?

24

Mr. Hedgman. I think probably that I would have sone hack

and advised that I intended to carry out and sought final

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approval before carrying it out had I been going to do it, had

thare boan a way to do 1t. I did not sue it an a practical, as

3

a mattar which could be accomplished practically, cortainly.

MI. Baron. As far as you were concerned, the policy

dacialon had been made at lleadquartars and in the Whita House

6

to assassinate Lumumba, and the questions that remalned ware

7

oparational queations, ly that correct?

Mr. lodgman. It la now my racollection, some fifteen

9

yoars latar -- and again I strons Ilfteen yoars -- that I

10

thought the polloy declaion had been made in the white

House,

1l l noe in the Agency, and that the Agency had been selectod as

tha Executive Agunt, 1f you will, to carry out a political

13

decision.

14

HI. Baron. And any further communication --

15

MI. Widos.. Excuse

mo, please.

16,

And the political decision was if possible he should be

11

eliminatod?

18

MI. Hedgman.

As a threat.

Mr. Wides, As a threat.

• Mr. Hedgman.

Asgassination being one means.

*1

Mi. Wides. That had been approved?

22

Mr. llodgman. Of achloving. I felt at the timo -

Mr. Hidas. As a polley mattar?

24

Mr. Hedgman. Yos. I thought at the tine, yes, that it

25

had boon approved. That in my recollaction, yes.

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Mr. Baron. So any furthar communicationa that you would

have had, as you mentioned a moment ago, to seax approval from

Headquartars would have been approval for the specific operational

modes that you would use to carry out the program?

Mr. ledgman. I think that's probably the case, 81r.

Mr. Widos, And is lt correct you are Indicating in that

regard your estimation now of what your :ilkaly course of action

would have boan in terns of how you would have proceeded, given

your situation there, la that correct?

Mr. lodgman. I don't understand, sir.

Mr. Wides. In terms of checking -- well, you Indicated

you think now you probably would have checked back bebore goin

ahead?

22

23

24

25

MI. Hedgman- Yes.

MI. Widos.

Is it correct to say that that is your

astimation now of how you would have decided to proceed, but

that is not necessarily your instruction that you had to check

that, because I think you indicatod before you had no recol.

lection that you felt your instructions wore to check back belors!

going ahoad?

MI. ladyman. I am not aura that I sald that. I don't

know for sure that I had an absolute froedom.

Mo, Widos, I understand. But you said bofore, 1f I am

correct, that you had no recollaction of a requirement to so

back?

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Mr. lladgman. There la a difference between not having a

2

recollection and being sure.

MI. Hidas. I understand. And you sald that you did have

a recollection, although you aren't cortain, that you falt...

5

Eras to go ahoad, whatever you might have done in terma of

6

your porsonal decision of how to proceed?

7

MI, lladgman. I think I said that I thought the polley

decision had boon made at the political level and that the Agency

9

had boon Inatructed to neutralies, to remove from position of

10

power or whatover position of threat, Lumunba - I am not

11

fancing with you.

1?

Mr, Wides.

No, I understand.

With regard to Mr. O'Donnell's arrival, what did ho

1÷

indicate to you was his mission when he arrived?

15

16

Mr. Madgman:

I understood it to be that - similar to

mine, that is the removal or neutralization of Lumumba.

I am

I'l not sure what wording he would have used.

14

Mr. Wides, Did he discuss i th you the possibility of

19

assassinating Lumumba?

20

MI. ludgman. I can -- I have no clear recollaction of

his discussing the assassination.

I know that -- I have a

2%

falrly good racollection that he was there for the sumoval of

2.

Lumumbe. Whether the word assassination, whether the word -

24

Mr. Wiias. Do you have any recollactior of discussing

25

with Justin O'Donnell the practicallity and the morality gunaral

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of

assassination as an Agancy activity?

Mr. ladgman. As an Agancy activity, 1 am not suro.

Cartainly, and in that apecific case I belleve that I did

Biscuss with him the practical problems involved in carrying

out such an operation.

Mr. Widas. Such an oparation being the assassination of

• political figure?

MI. lladgman, Yes, assassination or any other ramoval

from power, because we did not have the

MI. Widos.

I am not sure if your testimony is you do

recall discussing, among other things, assassination with

Justin O'Donnoll or that you don't rocall discussing it with

him?

Mr. lladgman.

I cannot affirm that I diacuased chis, but

I assuma i must have discussed it. I diacussed, for example.

the question of access.

MI. Wides, I take it then that you have no racollection

Of his indicating to you one way of the other whother assassina-

tlon was an option that he was considerina?

Mr. Hedgman. No, I don't.

MI. Wides. As a way of eliminating lumumba?

MI. Hedgman. I think I, since, in view of my instructions!

may have assumed that he was doing this.

85. Wides. Did he indicate to you anything about a

conversation that he had had with Mr. Risaull regardina

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assassination of Mr. Lumumba?

Mr. Hadgman. I do not rocall his diacussing that with

2

3

п8.

Mr. Wides.. And do you recall ever indicating to rim that

there was a virus or other deadly blological agent in the

6

7

safe?

10

11

12

Mr. ledgman, I do not recall that, no, but I gather chat

I must have from what you told me yesterday.

Mr. Dawson, You statad yeaterday, I bellove

MI. Wides. Excuse me.

Let me just on the racord clarity that.

Do you mean by that if. Mr. O'Donnell toseifled you did

tall him you would not dispute that, you just have no recollec-

tion?

14

15

16

1'1

1k

19

20

21

2%

2',

24

25

Mr. ledgman. I have no rocollection.

Mr. Dawson. You sald yesterday you not only wate

unenthualastle about it, I bollave were the terms you used.

about the prospect of sacking to assasginate Lumumba, but

thought you also said that O'Donnell was not particularly

enthuslastle about his work there either?

ME, lledgman. Yes.

I would put it yes, his work there. I cannot pir 1t

dows to assassination as such, although cortainly in my own

mind I think I must have thought that at the time. I didn't,

was not enthusiastic about thase instructions, and I had

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]

2.

no - had the imprassion he was not that happy aven to be

there.

6

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MI. Hides. You sald yesterday, I belleve you sald you

felt under no pressure to carry out the assignment, is that

a CorIact statament?

Mr. Hedgman. Yeah. I don't recall gatting mossagas to

cho offact, which quite often one jets whon you have been given

Inotructions to carry out a apacific operation, you know, let's

have the information, what are you doing, why aren't you doing

more? I do not recall prosgure on me to yot moving on this

thing and do it and carry it out.

Mr. Wides. You indicated a moment ago, I think, in

connection with. Mr. O'Donnell coming and your general wonderin

at the timo of his approval, whether thore was dlasatisfaction

with your performance

that the Congo had bacome a contral area

o f focus for the government and their concern over les future

and soviet intorvention and so forth, is that right?

Mr. liedgman. Yes.

I knaw -- well, of course by the

time that Mr. O'Donnell arrived, the Soviet intervention was,

"shall a say, limited, 1f I recall correctly, only to the north

and northeastern part of the country, because the soviats had

been

expelled.

Mr, Hides, I meant in the larger sonse of sovlet influence

or commundat influance eventually in the country?

MI. lladgman.

Yas.

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58

Now, let's see. Hould you rapat that?

Mr. Hides. Well, the essence of the question is simply

that at this tima, by late Saptembar, early Octobar, the Congo

waS

an area of great concern to the United States governmant?

Mr. Hedgman. Correct.

MI. Widos. There was a general senso of urgency about

the problams?

Mr. lodgmar. That's correct.

MI, Widas.

The potential problems, and you had gotten

the unusual communication, a direct personal messanger, that

the Presidont of the Unitad Statas had instructed the Agency

to aliminate Lumumba?

Mr. Hedgman.

Right.

Mr. Wides. Now, I find it a littla hard to understand

in that contaxt how you would have regarded, how you could have

regardod it as not a high-priority item with some urgency

involved.

Mr. Hedgman.

+...

Wall, certainly it was a priority, but

thera were many prioritles, and that was one of my problems

at the time, that I was swamped with work, a little bit 1lke

you with four paople calling you hero.

Mr. Hidas. Wall, would you havo rated this on a comparable

lovel with various intelligence requirements that you would have

got in the normal course?

Mr. lledgman. No, I would have -- but there were a number

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1

of other roguirements which ware laviad on me which we are not

dlacussing and la not in the purview of this discussion today.

3

I think thare was one major thing probably which took some of

the heat off, that is, that Lumumba had been assentially

nautralizad within his offica complex, home and office complex

6

share ha was under guard by the United Nations.

7

I'e was able to sand messages out, but the - there had

been a coup d'otat, at least. there was a coup d'ata on tha

9

night of the 14th of September, 1960. A government which was,

10

although nationalistically oriented seemed relativaly friendly

11

toward the United Statos, was in powar. There was a great deal

1?.

of discussion as to its legality at cho time, but that was

13

resolved by the Unitod States and most of the Western powers

who decided that it was legal since the government, since once

15

Prosidant Kagavubu appointed the members of that government,

16

his government, ha was the legal Chief of State.

1'

!

So I would. do you follow what I am trying to say?

1&

19

MI. Wides. Yes, I do.

MI. lladgman. I think there was a lessening in my own

20

i. faeling, of urgency.

21

15. Hides. Each time that you sont a cable back -- you

22

aald you thought you had sant several after the request for

23

confirmation

24

25

1t. lladgman. I think I did.

ME. Wides.

Was that simply something you made up, or did

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that raflect additlonal action that you had taken?

Mr. lledgman. No, it was not a fabricated messane.

othar words, I didn't fabricate things.

in

Mr. Wides. Did it just reflect further thoughts, or

did it reflect a report on somy further stops you had taken?

Me, lodgman. I think probably, and I cannot be sure of.

this, air, I think it probably raflacted further steps which

I had taken; that is, exploratory steps.

Mo. Wides. How many times did you spook to the agent about

what kinds of access he had, and what Lumumba's patterns waro?

was it on more than

one occasion?

Mr. lodgman. I balieve so. I bulleve 1t would have buen

on two, possibly three.

Mr. Hides. What other staps of activitlas had you

undertakan which were raported in your cable?

Mr. Hedgman. I think that was it. nuarying him, and

then personal observations of the area.

Mr. Wides. Did you indicate toile. O'Donnelliwhat you

had done in that regard when he came?

Mr. Hedgman. I assume I did, bus I cannot be sure.

Mr. Wides. And do you recall --

Mr. lodgman. I mean, it would have boon normal for mo

to

have done Bo.

Mr. Wildas, Do you recall discussing with him r, rotthleh!

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Mr. Hedgman. I don't rocall it, but I aasume

I must

61

2

3

hava.

Mr. Widas. Why do you assume you must have?

Mr. lledgman. Because you told me yesterday that he

tastified that I had told him I had blological agents in my

6

sala.

10

11

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2. 1

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211

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25

Mr. Wides. And you think you would have told him the

additlonal background of recoipt of those? Is that de?

Mr. Hedgman. I bellavo

30.

Mr, wides. Did you take any steps in the way of discus

slong with the agant you mantloned, or any other stops, to

further axplores the possibllity

of Implamenting these instruc-

tions once

Mr. O'Donnall!

arrived?

Mr. Hedgman.

I do not recall. I tend to doubt it, because

I bellove he left, left town and went to Stanloyville, the

agent I am speaking about, sometima In October.

But that's

Mr. Wides. Did you feel some sense of relief of not

having to pursue the quastion of eliminating Lumumba after

Mr. O'Donnall arrived because you sort of falt that this was

•his apoclal «ssignment?

Mr. Hedgman. Probably. But on the other hand, I was

the gondor -- I was not the senior officer, bu? l was the

commanding officer, if you will, and anything that took placa

was alao my responsibility.

Mr. Widas. What did you know of what he tried to do with

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regard to allminating, he being O'Donnell, In regard to

eliminating Lumumba?

Mi. Hedgman. It is hard to recall now. I know we mat.

He probably roportod varbally to me what steps he was taking.

and that may have beon thoss, his reporta may hava been those

mosnages also which I sent. I sald I thought i sant several

mossangos via that spocial channel, and in rotrospect, I may

havo boon reporting one of those massares, they may have been

raports which he gavo me to send back to washinaton.

Mr. Wides. Well, lat me ask you thia: I have ravlawad,

and I can reprasant to you that I have revlewed

several files

rogarding his activities in the Congo, and they Include in the

normal massage traffic, between Leopoldville and the Congolese

desk at the Agency, refarences to him in his crypt, and his

activities there.

Did that suggast that -

Mr. lledgman.

Mr. Wides. There might be other, there might be, are

you saying there might also be massagus renarding his activities

In the special channel, or would that suggest so you that his

activities were not communicated in the spectal channeli

Mr. llodgman. It doesn't suggast either ona, really.

am again not trying to

fance with you or anything. I don't

know. I would quegs that I would

have

sent in a special

channel anything dealing with lumumba, at least that would

touch upon his ramoval in one way or anothar.

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Mr. Wides. Doas' the crypt JMOGRE mean anything to you?

Mr. Hedgman. No, sir.

Mr. Wides.

Do you recall a time when 'Mr. O'Donnell had

an agent come into the congo to assist him in his efforts?

MI. llodgman. I had not rememberad that until yesterday

when you raised it.

Mr. Widos. Do you now have a racollaction, refreshed, o!

his having someono come in?

Mr. llodgman. A vague

recollaction, very vaque.

MI, Hides. Do you recall whare the parson came from, or

whether hu was a CIA officer, or juse a contract agent?

Mr. ledgman.

From the

name you used for him yesterday,

I would know that he would be an agent as opposed to an

intelligence officer.

Mr. Wides.

But you have no indepandent recollection of

who he was or where he was from or his background?

MI. Hedgman.

No.

I had forgotten that entirely.

!

Mr. Wides. Do you recall a time when you learned that

Patrico Lumumba had escaped from his house detention or arrest

1n the Presidontial Palace?

Mr. Hudgman.

Yes. It was not the Palace, the Prima

Miniater's rosidence.

MI. Wides. The Prime Minister's residence.

And do you rocall whether you had any foreknowledge that.

that was imminant, or a likely possibility?

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64

Mr. lodgman. No, I did not racall that. He did not

1t did not seen likoly, since the antire area was surrounded

by congolese troops.

Mr. Wides. Do you know of any assistance or involvement

of ME. O'Donnell'or his agent of anyone alas connected with the

Station in Mr. Lumumba's escape from the detention?

Mr. lodgman. I am juite cartain that there was no Agency

involvament in any way, bocause I think I would -- I am convincedi

I would have known it as Chlaf of station.

O'Donnell could not have taken such action under normal

Agency procedures without consulting me.

Mr. Wides. Now, is it correct that when he ascaped, Mr.

Lumumba tried to Journey

to the Stanleyville ragion where his

following was the strongest, and that along the way, en route,

he was apprehended by the Contral Congolese government authori-

tles and brought back under arrest, first to Leopoldville,

is that correct?

Mr, lladgman. That's correct.

149

Mr. Widas. And this happened some time in the perlod of

19:

I. November?

20

MI. lodgman. Late Hovember.

Mr. Wides. And to your knowledge or information that you

22

23

might have, was there any CIA assistance provided in any

significant way for tracking him down and the efforts to

24

recapture him?

25

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MI. ledgman. No.

I ballovo as ve sald yosterday, you asked me if I had a

plane and did spotting or anything of that sort. No, we did not,

Mr. Hides. Or providing any other rasources or intelli-

gance information or guidance of any sort?

Ms. Hedgman. la had no intelligance information.

¡ Guidance, as I sald, 1 sacall being with. I believe, Congolore

officars to the offoct that they were trying to flaure out how

to head him off, a discussion about there are only a certain

numbar of lorries and river crossings where

the roads - you

know, thare ware a limitad number of roade, and he had to go

through deup rain forests and major rivers were crossed.

I may have commented. I don't know for

MI. Wides.

But you would not charactarize your activities

as providing any assistance to the Congolose to locate him, or

would you?

MI. lodgman.

I honestly, I don't think it -- if it was

any assistance, certainly

not a major assistance.

Mi. Wides. Do you recall any communication wich the

Agancy while Mr. Lumumba was at large prior to your trip to

Rome, which I will get to in a moment, ahout his escape or, l'in

sorry, about your provision of any assistance or cooperating

with --

Mr. ladgman. I don't recall.

Mr. Wides. - the Congolese government?

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Mr. llodgman. I am cortain I sent cables about what I know

2

about 1t, about what I would gather from things. I may have

.3

commented about what. might have been done to head him off.

Mr. Wides. Would those have been in the normal channels.

those communications?

6

Mr. lodgman. Yos. I would assume thay would have bean.

7

8

I Remember, we aro at that time - I should stross this, this makes

quito a diflorence -= our communications taclistles wore marginal,

9

to say the loant, and we did not have the modern equipment which!

10

18 now usad in most stations, ambassles, where you just alt

11

down and poka it out. And I won't yo into the technical aspacts

12

but it took much longer to code, ancode and decode mossaos.

As a result, I kept my messages much shorter than what

12

14

I would nowadays. So, I presume and assumo that i sent whateveri

15

intolligence I could gather on what was happening.

MI. Wides. Was there a time In Novenber when you went

16,

to Rome for a moating with Mr. Bissall and 4r. Twoedy?

Mr. Hedgman. That's correct.

Mr. Hidas. And Bronson Tweedly and Richard Bissall?

19

20

Mr. Hedgman. That's corruct.

Mr. Wides. And this took place at like Eaten Jin Homo?

1:1

Mi. lledgman. That's correct.

22

Mr. Hides. The meeting?

24

Mr. Hedgman. Yes.

MI. Widea. And Mr. Karamessinas, Thomas Karamesoines, wis

25

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then

¿ho Stationy Chief In Roma?

Mr. Hedgnan. He was.

Mr. Wides.

Has he present for some of the discussions, or

only for the general, the social -

MI. lodgman. I balieve ho was present at the general

discusslong that we had.

Mr. Hidas. Do you recall -

Mr. lodgman. I know he was there part of the evening.

Thia took place at his home as opposed to the office.

Mr. Wides. And part of the discussion and the main focus

was with regard to the Congo, was on the

fact that. Lumumba was

on tho loose, and 1t wasn't clear whother he would

Incito an

uprising?

Mr. Hedgman. I would say it was more claarly a complete

overview of what was going on, including the threat of the

Ishombe sucassion. Of cartainty, Lumumba's ascape would havo

been a major point of discussion, at was the fact that rizenna

had set up a govarnment which ha claimed to be the only true and

legitimate government in Stanleyvilla.

Me. Wides. Has Mr. Lumumba one of tho topicy that you

racall discussing?

Mr. lledgman.

I'm quite cartain that we did, but I mean --

Mr. Wides. This would have been because he was on the

100gc at that point?

Mr. Hadgman. Yes.

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6 Я

Mr. Hidos. And had not baen captured and was a potential

2

3

threat?

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Mr. Hodgman. Yes.

I had asked not to leave to attend the mooting. My

rocollaction la I sant a message aaying that in my opinion I

should not leave the congo at that time.

MI. Widos. I know that ua hava had a little more chance

to think ahout it. Can you racall now any discusnion at that

meeting rogarding Lumunha's possible assassination, either

prospoctivaly or with. reference back to your earlier cables to

loadquarters and your meeting with pr, rottlleb?

M5. Herigman. No, I cannot.

MI. Dawson.

This meeting was a mentina of the African

Station Chiofs, was it not?

MI. Hodgman. Yes, I don't know whether all were there.

or the majority, but cartainly a numbor of them were chare.

But, thoy were not present at the evaning meeting.

Mr. Dawson. No. I understand that.

MI. ladyman. I was piven sort of a special treatment.

into see him, and then I could laave.

Mr. Wides. Did you ever have any discussions with

Bronson Twaudy regarding the assassination of Lumumba. where both

the

assassination, the quastion of assassination, the quastion

uf assassination in rolation to bumumba came up, either in tha

fall of '60 or later 1900 or later on?

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Mo. Hedgman. I must assumo that we did, but 1 cannot he

cartain of that.

MX: Widas, I think you indicated to un yestarday you

recalled talking with Bronson Twaady in rogard to Lumumba and

Baying in affect that, thank God nothing was ever done. And i

thought the implication was -

Mr. lledgman.

I think I probably, I said I probably said

that sort of thing, but to rucall a spaelfic meating and.

convsraation on this subject, I am not sure that I sald that.

Mr Widos, Would you say you have no racollection of

discussing assassination of lumumba with Ironson Tweedy?

Mr. Hedgman.

I have a vaque recollection of saying, you

know, somethina to the oflect that it was a good thing

didn't, but I can't be

Mr. Wides.

you can't place it, but you have some reco!-

lection that you had

such a discussion?

MI. Hodgman. I think so, sfr... But this

is a pretty

vague thing in my mind.

Mr. Hides. And can you recall when you think that

happened? I don't mean by specific dato, but that is the period

in question or much later on?

Mo. lledgman.

Prohably later on, but I don't know. That's

• guedy.

Mr. Hides. Do you recall over having a discussion with

M5- M1ssa11 regardlug 1t?

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ME. lledgman. To what?

Mr. Wides. With rogard to the assassination of Lumumba?

Did that particular question ever come up in discussions that

you had with Mr. Missoll elthar during the events which we have

been

discussing or after the events?

Mr. lladgman. Of course, I didn't saa Mr. Dissoll very

ofton. I saw him in Rome, and I next saw him whan I raturner

in dato January of 1961, when

¡roturnod to the statos. I cannot!

recall such a conversation, but I think lt la possible, perhoos

avan likaly.

Mr. Wider. But you have no recollection?

155, lodgman. No, sir.

Mr. Wides, Would the same bo true with regards to Mr.

Dulles, that you have no recollection, although it is possible?

Mr. Hedgman. Yes.

MI. Wides. Do you recall --

x. ledgman.

I saw Mr. Dulles aven loss often.

• Mr. Wides. Do you recall discussing the fact that you

had rocolved Instructions to try to agsassinate Lumumba with

Director Schlosinger in 1973?

H5. Hedgman. I believe it was at that tina that I spoke

to him, bocause when he took over, dither ho or ar. Colby jagued

a request for any information which would, activities conductod

or considered, what have you, by the Agency, which would appear

illegal.

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Mr. Wides. Do you think that was the time, but you have

a definite racollection that in any event you did at some point

relate this, rolate the fact of chese instructions to Director

schlesinget?

Mr. Hedgman. I think it was Schlosingar. It could have

been Colby, but I bellavo it was schlesinger, or I may have

cold both of thom.

Mr. Widos. Other than those two ventlemen and the poople

wa havo discussed already --

Mr. Baron. What exactly did you tall Schlasinger as far

ag

you can recall that now?

Mr. ledgman. That, to the affect that I felt that I had

received Instructions to assassinate Lumumha.

Mr. Baron. You didn't mention the means by which this

was to be carried out?

MI. Hedgman.

I doubt it, but I don't know.

Hr. Wides. Do you recall mentioning the Prasidential

authority?

Mr. lledgman. I think that I did.

Mr. Haron. You say you may have discussed it with both

Schlesingor and Colby, that would have been a discussion that

would have taken place

subsequently with Colby when he became

SCI?

2:3

24

Mr. Hedgman. Well, of course Colby was Executive Director

under Mr. Schlosingar, Colby could have been in the room wien

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72

I raported to Schlesingor. It la ailly that I don't remember

spocifically this, but I did make, I did coport this verbally.

I profaried not to --

MI. Widas. And your bast recollec lon is you reported it

to Schlasinger, and you may have also reported it to Mr. Colby.

1 a

that your bost rocollection?

Mr. Heilaman. Yes.

Yas.

Mi. Maron. And you were going to say that you preferred

not to put it in writing?

MI. Hedgman. It wag

the

sort of thing I did not wish to

dictate to a secretary, and boing one, 18 not one of the world'si

best typists, and thirdly it seamed to me

It was a matter not.

to circulate on paper, frankly. It was a mintake that it --

Mr. Wides. Can you Incall ever discussing this with

Richard Helms?

MI. Hedgman.

No, I

don't recall.

Mr. Wides. -- the

Instruction to asgagginate?

Mr. ledgman. I don't recall.

MI. Wides. Is there anyone alse in the Moancy you can

t ver rocall discussing this assigned mission with?

MI. Heigman.

110. It's possible that I tallied with some-

one liko Tom Karamesgines when he

was

DoP.

But --

Mr. Dawson. Did you talk to

pr. cottliab aubsequent to

his arrival in the congo?

MI. Hidas, You mean aftor his departuto, after that trip?

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73

Mr. Dawson. Yes, subsequent to.

Mr. ladgman. I saw him numerous times.

Mr. Dawson. And your reaction to him was thank God we

didn't have to carry that mission out, or thank rod it didn't

happen?

Mr. Hodgman. Well, I talked to him about so many things.

and I probably said that.

MI. Widas. Do you have a racollaction of discussing with

him at a subsaquent time to his trip to Leopoldville, over

raising the instructions ho gave you for his trip?

Mr. lledgman. Not specifically as such.

Mr. Wides, You don't have a recollection, or you don't

recall discussing it specifically, but you recall some general

illusion to 1t?

Mr. Hedgman. Yes, I Iacall general Illusion to 1t.

Mr. Dawson.

no you recall talking

to anybody within the

last six months about this, or more recently?

Ar. Wires.

since the first of the year?

11r. Hedgman. Yeah. I am just trying to go through in my

•own mind.

(Pause)

Yes, Mr. Colby. I saw him the other day when

I roturned.

Hr. Wideg. What was your discussion with him in that

regard?

Mr. Hedgman. I toll him I assumed this sublect would come!

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Mr. Dawson, This subject? Did you axpect him'to ba

fully cognizant with all the particulars?

Mr. Hodgman. I am not.

sure that I did.

MI. Dawson. At least the Presidential authorization and

tho passage of the vials of poison, the person that was used

to pass thesa?

Mr. lodgman. 1 mantloned De: Cottilab a name. I an not

suro that I mantioned vials of poison or

ME. lsdes. Did you indicate to him br. rottlleblnad come

to the Congo?

ar. Hedgnan. I belleve

I did.

Mr Dawson, Well, lat me just follow that.

And the Presidential authorization, was that also

mentioned?

Mr. Hedgman. Yes, I am quite sure I mentioned that.

MI. Dawson. What was his reaction?

Mr. Madaman.

His reaction was that it was a great

shame

that this ever happened. I'm putting words in his mouth.

Mr. Dawson, Go right ahear.

Mr. Hedgnan. And certainly that

I must obvdoudly report.

fully and honestly to thu Committee.

Mr Widos, Did he discuss, say anything about his prior

knowledge of what you had just told him?

Did ho saamed

surprised by any of what you told him?

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75

Mr. Hedgman. No, I don't think so. I think that I had

given him thia, or as I said earlier, probably de the same time

or parallal with when I did Dr. Schlesinger.

Mr. Wides, When you saw him racantly and mentioned this.

did

you rofar to your tolling this to Director Schlesingor, or

did you say, as you recall?

M5. Hergman. Something like that.

Mr. Wides. And did he acknowledge that he had learned

of it earlier?

Mr. Hedyman. Acknowledge? I think he indicated -1

would, have, would have assumad from his conversation that he

recalled something about it, yes.

Mr. Wides. Did the fact that. Dr. rottllab had made a

trip to the Congo seen to surprise him, or did he acknowledge

that he was aware of that as well?

Mr. lledgman. I don't krow. I don't know that I sald at

thas time that I referred to er corellon'a travel to the

Conyo when I saw him.

Mr. Wides. Recently?

HI. Hedginan. Just the other day when I came back I pair

a courtesy call on him.

Mr. Dawson. This was 11ke this week then?

Mr. Hedgman.

Yas. Il was Monday, I bellove.

Mr. Dawson. Do you recall anybody elsa that was a part!

to that conversation, or whom you had similar conversations with

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recontly, aimilar and saparate?

76

MI. Wides. Has thare anyone there when you spoke to Mr:

Colby?

5

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24

Mi. lodgman. For part of it, part of the meeting, and

then wa were alone for part of the meetina.

Mr. Hidas. Was there anyone there when you mantloned what

ly ou thought he wanted to talk to you shout?

MI. lodgman. No, thore was no one else present.

Mr. Nicos. And have you spoken to anyone else?

Mr. lodgman. I didn't wish to raise this in front of

"other Agency employees, because it suemed to me that I didn't

I know who was aware of thin. I had no desire to discuss it in

front of othurs.

Mr. Wides, Did he indicate anything as to what he thought!

anyone else had told the Committee or would tall the committee,

including Mr. Btssell, Mr. O'Connell or ar

• cottliab, Dr!

...

SottlieD?

HI. Hedgman. No. He just indicated that it was vary

difficult -- I am really putting words in his mouth and I

I shouldn't do this. I had the

impression that he regretted thin

vary much, that this had ever

happened, and the truth hail

come out, and that was the only way for the Agency to over

1

rijain its status ard usefulness.

But I am putting -- I am

elaborating probably, He may not have thought all of those

things.

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1

Mr. Wides. Have you had any conversations diractly or

2

through intermodiary communicationg with olthar Mr. Blasall or

Mr. Tweady

since you raturned?

Mi. Hedgman.

NO.

I tried to call Mr. Tweudy as an old

5

parsonal friend on his phone twice and thare was no answer. so

6

I assuma ha is away on vacation or something, elther that or

maybe ho's in town and i jugt missed him.

8

MI. Dawson. So to summarizo, the only persor you raally

9

recall having all of the facts of the prosidential authoriacion!

10

11

12

passing of the virus, with whom you really have a flem recollec-

ton. I should say, tele rottllely

Mr. ledanan. Yes.

I would have quessed that.

13

MI. Wides. Excuse mo.

You mean he ever discussed it with?

14

15

MI. Dawson. The whole picture, or the panorama of thinas

16

that might have taken place.

Mr. lledgman. I don't think that 1 -- 1 mean, he discussedl

11st lt with nit.

19

Mr. Dawson. I agree, sir.

Mr. Hides. Let me ask you two more questions if I can.

220)

1:1

and then 1 will have to leave.

MI. Baron. Just to follow this up, have you snoken to

Dr. Gottileb about coming to tha Committee?

Mr. Hedgman, I have not. I have not seen him.

24

26

Mr. Widos, With regard to the evants subsaquent to

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78

MI, Lumumba's recapture and hia detontion in Thaysville --

MI. Hadgman. Thaysville.

Mr. Wides. Thaysville.

And his subsequent, Mr. Lumumba's subsequent transportation

to Katanga, what discussions did you have with the Congolese

officials and what kind of quidance or input did you or anyon

from the U.S. Embassy or Station make Into thoss decisions to

tranaport him to Katanga?

Mr. Hedgman.

To the bast of my knowledge, noither the i

Station or the Embassy had any input in the decision to send

him to Katanga.

MI. Wires, What discussions were thare with the Consolene

officials as to whether he might be executed either by the

Cantral Government while he was under their control or by

Hr. Tshombe when he was

sant to Katanga?

MI. lledgman. I don't recall any such conversations.

think there was a general assumption, once we learned ha ha!

ach soilt to katange, that his yoose was cooked, because ishumber.

hated him and looked on him as a danger and a rival.

Mr. Wides.

But you had no discussions with anyone in the

Cantral Congolese goverument

regarding whether he should or

should not ho sent thare?

Mr. Hedgman. I had

absolutely none, no sir.

Mr. Wides, And onca ho was there, what Information di

you have as to whether they were considering his death prior to

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79

learning of his doath?

MI. lledgman. I had no, no information because 1t was not

the sort of thing I suppose that the Congolose officials really

ranted to discuss with a representative of a forelan government.

ME. Hides. Was thare any contact between our acting

Basa Chist in the Katanga Province and the officlals In Katanga?

Has there any discusslon betwoen thom or communication that you

know of ragarding what would bo done with Patrica lumumba?

Mr. lodgman. No. The only thing that I would Imagine

would have happened is they would havy trind to alvin both

Washington and Leopoldville of any Information choy. had on what

happoned to him.

Mr. Wides. Excuse me. Off the racord.

(Discussion off the rocord.)

Мг. Baron.

I would like to move vary quickly through a

faw loose ends that pop up as we went. along relating to your

convorsation with pottlied and than D'Donnell and then

Schlesinger, and it is really just about. one question on evary

loose end, and I want to than turn to winogur, and I don't

• think that will take very lond, anl then the bossibility of

convarsations with the Embagsy. And I would like your halp

on that part since I was not there yestorday. lut l will

leave that for the last, and you can pick up with any loosa

ends.

Is that all right with you?

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Mr. Dawgon. Fine.

Mr. Baron.

Mr. lladgman, I would like to pick up hare

for a moment with a series of short, loose ends from the

axamination that we have done so

far.

Mr. lladgman. I will try to do my best.

Mr. Baron. That is, first of all, whon you discused

your conversation with the then DCl, Schlesingor, you said that

you indicatod to him verbally that you had bean asked to

participate

in an assagaination of Patrico Lumumba. Did he

respond when you made that indication

to him?

Mr. lledgman.

May I go back? I think i mada it to him.

It is concalvable that. I could have made it to Bill Colby as

his Executive Director, or that tho

two could have been present

together. It is ridiculous, but i cast pin thie one down in

detail.

Mr. Baron. Did you recolve a responga from Schlesinger?

You mentioned yesterday that he was able to ba quito sphinxlike

whan he wanted to, and you thought that this miht have been

one of those situations.

Ar. Hadaman.

I had the impression he took lt all on board

and did not necessarily wish to advise me of what action he

planned to take.

HI. Baron. Has there any follow-up?

1r. Hergman. lilther he or Colby, which aver it was.

Mr, Baron, Has there any follow up from either schlesingor

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81.

or colby aftor you had given them this information?

MI. lledgman. I do not recall.

Mi, baron. Did you over discuss the assassination mission!

with

anyone in the Inspactor Caneral's Offico at the CIA?

Mr. Hodgman. Not to my racollection.

But it 1s concalve

able thuy could have sant - during that perior, there more a

numbor of diacussions with Inspactor Generals on various aspecta

of work and so on.

Whather there was a discussion of this

subjoct, I don't recall it. S0 1 doubt it, but I don's know.

Mi. Baron.

On a numbar of discussions that you had with

the Inspoctor Ganeral'o Offica?

ME. Hedgman.

On many

other subjects, totally unrelater

to this, personnel matters.

As you racall, Dr. Schlesinger committed a very sharp

reduction in force, which rasulted in personnal problemg and

Inspector Generals' invastigations, and so forth.

Мг. Ватоп.

were you interviewed by anyone from tha

Inspector General's office ir the preparation of thair keport

in 1967 on asgassination efforts within the CIA?

Mr. Hedgman. 19673

Mr. Baron. Yes.

Let no represent to you that at the request of the Del.

the

Inspector Ceneral's Office propared a Report In 1367 on

any involvement that ClA had of could he concoived to have harl

with assangination efforts. Wore you interviewad in connection

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when

-- you don'e ramember the doto of the

3

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1000: 3€ -0:90-41

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25

with that Report?

Mr. Hedaman.

Report?

MI. Baron. I hellave the date was in May of 1967, and it

was prapared by Scott Brackinuldge and Mr. Farman and Mr.

Great.

Mr. lledyman. Yes, I know them all. I don't believe so.

but I was abroad at that time.

MI, Dawson. Was the slgnificance of the date in 1967 ol

any aruat moment?

Mr. lodgman. I was abroad at the time.

I didn't roturn

to the Statos until July, I balieve, or 1967.

ME. Haron. Returning now to your discursions with de.

Sidney cotelleblwhen he came to the congo, to give you lethal

biological agents for the assassination of Lumumba, van lt

clear at that tlme that the means for administerina those

biological agents was

to injoct them into a substanon that was

to be ingested by lumunha, whether it be food, or deluk, or

toothpasto, or any other substance that was to la livested?

Ms. Hedyman. That's my recollection, yor.

Mr. Baron. You mentioned that it was your hast rocollection

that: Dr. Gottliab brought the lothal biological agents with him.

Is that correct?

Mi, Hadoman.

Yes.

Mr. Baron. And

you mentioned yastarday that you believe

tit:

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brought them with him in his bag.

Is that right?

2

MI. lodgman. I have a racollection that they were

in a.

what do you call those small carry-on bags like your pan in ban

or sabina bag or somethin

like that.

Mr. Moron. It would not have heon difficult for he.

¡cottilab to have gotten auch anulmmont into the condo de that

time, would it?

8

Mr. Hadgman. No.

Mr. Baron. Ware there

oxtenaive Cuntoms checks in the

10

Congo at that time?

11

MI. lled man.

There were not.

12

Mr. Baron.

Here there any Customs chocks at that point?

1:.

#r. Hedgman.

I can't recall, but if so, they were very

14

limited.

15

when you apoke with or rottlied ild you

ask him iow long the lethal biological agents would retain their

17

*=:=

potency?

1%:

19

MI. lenigman.

I beliave there was a conversation to that

He ffrsct.

21.

21

Mr, Haron.

no you recall what he said?

Ir. Hedoman. I think it was fairly short, some months.

22

Mr. Baron. They would bo lethal only for a fairly short.

23

period of tina?

24

Mr. Hailuman. Yes.

25

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84

MI. Baron. A parlod of some montha?

Mr. llegman. I think It was less than that, but I cannot

ba cortain.

That 1s, I romember being surprlsed, thinking that

LImits carton ponsibilitles rinht thern.

MI. Ilton. And you said earlier that you took the

¡ poisons intos salo at the Station. When dld you take the

= ¡ polsons outor the sale?

Mr. Magman.

I cannot raally recall that.

MI. It on.

Did you take them out on more

than ond

OCCABIOn?

10

11

Mr. Idleman. No.

)::

15. Ilton. And that occasion was --

Mr. Ilyisman. No. I say no. Not to the bast of my

1÷

recollectio. I want to stress that because it ls so long agu

15

that I am amost certain I did not.

1 f;

Mr. Tron. And the occasion when you did take the

1:

polsons oufof the safe was when you disposed of than?

Mr. Holyman. Yes.

1t:

Mr. Aron. And can you descrive the circumstancos?

1!

121;

:::

Mr. Adgman. I think that I took them out probably in

a briefcase or an all bay of some sort, and

1 belleve

that

the thingslike the rubber gloves and the mask wore thrown away

22.

in a bushyared or something whare, you know, If they were

25

round it don't matter that much. I believe

I buried the

other inartes.

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MI. Baron. The blological agents?

Mr. lodgman. Yas, although they, by that time they would,

the potency would have expired.

But, they didn't seem the sort

of thing -I didn't know enough about it, and I will be damned

I wanted to leave

them lying around.

Mr. Baron. Was this out by the congo Rivar that you

burled these things?

MI. Herlaman. Yas, yas, I think, You know, it la my

racollaction.

MI. Daron. Has this aftar the arrest of Lumumba, aftor

Lumunba had already houn placed in protuctiva custody so to

speak?

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Mr. Hedgman. My the Congolege, you mean?

Mr. Baron. Yes.

Mr. liedgman. Yes, I would think so.

Mr. Baron. And was it possible that you waited until

aftor Lumumba's death to dispose of those poisons?

Mr. Hedgman. That's possible.' I don', remember.

1Г. Ватоп.

But you

15. lledgnan, They were lowd overdue, whatever it was,

think, because I believe -

MI. Baron. Yesterday you stated that it was your recol-

lection that you had not disposed of the poisons until Lumumba

was succossfully neutralized, either by arrest of by death,

and you col

all which.

ur recollection?

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Mr. Hadgman. I think that probably would bo a fair

86

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statement.

Mr. Baron. Did you discusa the assassination misgion

with Dr. lester

llouk?

15. lodgman. Never. I am suite surs now.

MI. Baron. He was your branch Chief at that point?

Mr. Hedgman. lle was.

Mr. Baron. Did you discuss it with clunn Flolds?

MI. llergmas.

I don't recall. llo was Acting Chief and

Daputy Chief.

Mr. Baron. Do you recall discussing the angaggination

mission with anyone else at the station or in the congo other

than the ond asset?

MI. Hedgman.

NO.

I remamber hearing Me. O'Donnell i

commenting on this to --

Mr. haron. Ta be

03

MT. Hedgman.

I belirve

03

it was

and I was

shocked and surprised, because I thought this was

not the

sort of thing that he should discuss with officars who were

not

involved in this.

Mr. Baron. What was our

joh at that time?

Mr. Hedgman. He was under non-official cover and an

agant handler, of not necessarily just the agents, but

devoloping contacts.

MI. Baron. And what's his full namo?

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MI. lledgman.

Robert netocollis

Ме. Вагоп.

What did you hear 'Donnell aay to brincolla

MI. Hodgmas, I don't remembar exactly, but in any caso

it raforred to something about removing Lumumba from -- I'm not

sure whathor it was argasgination

or neutralization,. but whatover

it was, It samad to ma ho had gona too far.

MI. Baron.

And had gone too far bocause it conveyed the

idea of assassination?

Mr. lodgman. Probably, but I cannot be sure.

MI. Baron. You indicated earller that in mid-September

there was a coup which affactively limited Lumumba's powers in

the Congo?

MI. Hodgman. That is correct.

MI. Baron. And this would have bean very shortly after

ADi. Gottlieb visited you in the Congo and gave you the instruc-

tion about assassinating Lumumba?

Mr. Hedgman. I can't be

sure whether it was before or

after. That was the l4th of September, that coup took place;

but as you will recall, I cannot be absolutely certain of when

I think it was before that, but I cannot

suIt.

Mr. Baron. But it is quite possiblo, isn't it, that the

coup could have been a major reason why thare wasn't any more

vigourous action on the assagsination front?

Mr. Hedgman, T'hat's posgible, yes.

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88°

MI. Baron. Is that --

MI. lodgman. And I have speculated on that carlier.

Мг. Вагоп.

Is that a strong possibility to you?

Mr. lodgman. I just couldn't put le, because I don't

know what tho policy makers, the political leaders, the

Prosident, the Director, what the Director's polley, the sonior

axecutive, anyway, wore thinking at that time.

Mr. Baron.

And you mentioned that Justin O'Donnell wan

not particularly active during his period of servico in the

Congo?

MI. Hedgman. ls did not seem as active as many of the

other people that I had working

for me at that time.

Mr. Baron. You didn't soly upon him for major operations

or activities at that point., did you?

Mr. Hedgman. No. Well, this - he was sent out more or

less on a special mission, as I underatood it, and I left him

free for that.

Mr. Baron, You

indicated yesterday, and I would like to

Xnow It this is still your impression, that the fact that rustin

O'Domall'

might not hava boen active on the assassination

mission may not have bean due to any lack of priority for that.

mlasion, but due more to hla personal habits of inactivity?

Mr. Hadgman, Perhaps I don't want to mallan Justin;

don't medn that -- shouldn't have commentad on his character or

his personal habits, really. I just have the impression he was

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not putting his whole heart and soul into the effort. He was

an officur with a raputation for being gung ho and a vory hard

worker when I had known him previously, some years previously,

and ho seend quite, cortalnly did not seem that way to me out

there.

Mr. Dawson. Did you comment on that to the Agency?

Mr. lladgman. I doubt it, but I cannot be sura.

MI. Dawson. Here you wilting his efficiancy revort at

Uha tima?

Mr. Hedyman. Ile didn't stay long anough for me to writo

an afficiancy roport. I could have written one if he stayed

the 90 days or more, and as the COS 1 could have writtan one

if I'd wishod.

Mr. Dawson. But you chose not to do so?

Mi. Hedgman. I chose not to, to the bast of my recollec-

tion, I did not.

Mr. Baron. Did much of the cable traffic which you

recolved from leadquartors in relation to the assassination

mission subsequently become destroyed?

MI. lledgman. It is my recollection that before leavin

tho Station and turning over to my successor that I destroyed

that. Parhaps well before, I just can't put a timeframe on

it, but it seemed to me it was not the type of correspondence

to leave lyiny about a Station.

Mr. Baron. You indicated yesterday that you had recoived

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some kind of Instructions to destroy that cable traffic.

MI. Hadgman. I think I - I cannot recall oxactly what

I said yesterday.

Now, when 1 am trying to be as precise as 1

can on the record here -=

MI. Baron.

Please do.

Mi. Hedgman. I think I did, but i cannot be cartain.

cannot be absolutely. I don't know whether I did.

Mr. Baron.

Hould you have ruceived those instructions

verbally from'iDr: Gottliab, or as part of one of the cablos?

Mr. lledgman. I don't know.

Ar. Baron.

Would it ba standard proceduro for a Chial of

Station to dustroy cable traffic relatins to or extremely

sensitive operation like that one?

Mr. ledgman. Holl, it is standard procedura to keap your

cable files and all other files as small as possible, because

copies of those are rotained, of all muspages are normally

retained in washington.

You try and keep as small a number as

possible on hand so as to permit you to continue working so that;

you have ready raferenco, becauso you may have to, in an

anuryancy you may have to burn all of your communications.

And balisva me,, when you have to yo through a burn

sassion, it la very difficult, and it takes time.

Mr. Baron. Had you evar in your experience as Chief of

Station in the Congo destroyed othor cable traffic becausy of

its extramely sonoitive nature?

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- Mr. Hodgman. No, I don't think so. I don't recall doing

60 .

But I destroyad a graat deal of traffic, because the Congo

was a highly sunsitiva ared in which - at one parlod I recall

wa had all of our filos in the burn barrels. I mean, when you

wanted a file, you went over and dug it out of the burn barrel.

Mr. Baron. But the cable traffic calating to the

assassination mission wasn't destroyad as a routine mattor

bocaugs it was excoss traffic, but bacause of its extranaly

sonsitivo nature?

ME. lledgman.

No, that's cortact.

Mr. Baron. Did you have any discussions of the assassina.

tion mission with anyone at the U.S. Embassy?

Mr-lledgman. No, I did not.

Mr. Baron, Did you aver discuss the prospects of

assassinating Patrice Lumumba with the Ambassador in the Conyo?

Mr ..

lodgman. I am quite sure i did not.

MI. Baron. Off the record for a moment.

(viscussion off the record.)

Mr. ledgman. May I say for the record that rolationships

with the inbassy were axcaptionally good. There was almost,

or;

no friction, or sense of competition between the CiA Station int

the Embassy. The Ambassador was extremoly cooperative,

friendly and understanding.

MI. Baron. Who was the Ambassador at that time?

24

MI. lodginan. Clare il. T imbarlake.

25

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plan with

Mr. Daron, Did you ever discuss the Lumumba assassination

Cold clivant as

MI. ledgman.

Not to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Baron.

cortect?

ArON ESvag 1s a CIA officer, 1s that

03

MI. lladgman. Yeah.

I know him.

Mr. Baron. Did you have any official business with angkil

Emperawhile you were in the congo?

Mr. liadyman. Yas.

lla came through on a countarintelli-

ponce mission, and I don't recall the dotalls at this timo.

Mr. Baron. Do you recall whether ho had mentioned that

his mission rolated to Project ARRIFLE or the devolopment of

an Exocutive Action capability?

Mr, lledgman. No, I do not Iscall that.

MI. Baron.

would his project have related to obtaining

codes by surraptitious means?

Hr. Hedgman. I think it would have been more nearly that,

but I, I cannot affirm this as the case. That was what I think

was probably the case.

Mr. Baron. Would his project have involved an asset who

waS

already in the Congo named OJHIV?

Mr. Hedgman. I gather from what was said yesterday that

this was the case. I do not recall it.

Mr. Baron. Have you ever heard of --

03

Mr. Hedoman, And data incame from where ho indicated,

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you indicatad yestarday QJWIN came from, and

Whad bean

there with --

Mr. Baron. This is a country in Europa?

MI. lodgman. Yes, therafore it's logical.

Mr. Baron. Have you aver hoard of Project ERRIFLE?

Mi. lodgman. Yesterday.

Mr. Baron. Yestorday was the flat time you heard that

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nama?

Mr. lladgman. I think so. And yostarday, I might

spocify, was here.

Mr. Baron. Being informed by the Committee staff?

Mr. liadgman. Yes.

Mr. Baron. Havo you aver heard of Exacutiva Action?

Mr. Hedgman.

I have heard those, that term used, and 1

don't quite - I think more in nawspapers or more recently thar

in the past, but it is possible that I heard it.

MI. Baron. Is Executive Action usad at the CIA as a

euphemisin for asgassination of

foreign leaders?

Mr. ledgman. It has baen so alleged. I never heard anyor

• to

my knowledge use

it.

Mr. Baron. Ware you aware of a Projact at the CIA to

develop maans - strike that.

To develop the capability of carrying out assagginations

of fordign loaders?

Mr. Hedgman. Not until I talked with the Committee stalf

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