## Page 1

180-10110-10100

2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDEN AS OR YEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1920/20

Identification Form

Agency Information

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10110-10100

RECORD SERIES :

SECURITY CLASSIFIED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

125-JFK

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE:

CIA

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

00/00/0000

1

OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO

MEXICO

DOCUMENT TYPE :

REPORT

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS:

1A

CURRENT STATUS :

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

01/01/2003

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

Box 4.

v9.1

NT 50955

DocId: 32263505

Page

1

---

## Page 2

prepared by Das Harder

SCENARIO

CHRONOLOGY OF OSWALD'S VISITS TO THE SOVIET AND CUBAN EMBASSIES.

September 26, 1963

Thursday

A man claiming to be Oswald vists the Cuban

(Embassy between 10:00 A.M. and 2:00 P.M.

The visit probably occurs around one o'clock.

"Oswald" is discribed as 5'6" tall, blond hair,

sunken cheeks, very thin, aquiline nose, very

straight eyebrows, approximately 35 years old

and wearing a light blue Prince of Wales suit.

He was said to look very cold with a hard face

and a penetrating cunning way of looking at you.

"Oswald" was seeking an intransit visa to Cuba

on his way to Russia.

He displayed documents

that showed his membership in the Fair Play

for Cuba Committee and the American Communist

He was told that he would have to

first obtain a visa to Russia before he could

be issued an intransit visa. He is also told

that he should return to the Cuban Embassy

with his passport and a copy of a photograph

in order to fill out the visa application.

September 27, 1963

Friday

Circa 10:30 A.M.

10:37 A.M.

circa 1l:30 A.M.

Tel tog

:210

circa 12:15 P.M.

esot here

circa 12:45 A.M.

"Oswald" calls the Soviet Military Attache (SMA)

& with whom he speaks in Spanish. He tells the

SMA that he is looking for a visa to Odessa.

The SMA tells him to call the Consulate.

"Oswald"

asks for directions to the Embassy and recieves

them.

"Oswald" calls the Soviet Consulate and asks to

speak to the Consul in Spanish.

He is told that

"the Consul is not in. He is told that he can

call back at 11:30.

"Oswald" says that he is

looking for a visa to Odessa.

"Oswald" goes to the Russian Embassy where he

once again exhibits the documents he has already

shown the Cubans as well as other documents such

as his and Marina's marriage license.

"Oswald"

discusses his situation with someone at the

Embassy and comes away with the understanding

that everything would be expeditiously handled.

Someone from the Soviet Embassy calls Azcue

whom he is aware of because of what "Oswald"

has told him, and tells him that they have to

get authorization from Moscow to grant him a

visa and that it will probably take four months.

"Oswald" returns to the Cuban Embassy with the

MW 50955 DocId:32263505 Page 2

---

## Page 3

Page Two.

9/27/63

12:45. (cont'd)

seque

sivas*y

5:00

1:25 P.M.

4:05 P.M.

4,

Tel top

4:26 P.M.

Tell B

Night

NW. 50955: DocId: 32263505 Page 3

photo and completes the visa application,

stating that he would like to leave in three

He asks Azcue about how long it will

take to get the visa. Azcue explains his

misconception to him, an argument results and

Azcue throws Oswald out. Duran feels sympathetic

to Oswald, gives him her address, and promises wic

to help in any way she can She

feels that

Oswald should have been granted the visa with

no problems and that Azcue's actions are wrong.

Oswald calls the Soviet Consulate in an attempt

to find out what has gone wrong with the arraing-

ment he thought he had.

In Spanish, he asks for

the Consul.

He is told that the Consul is out

and that he can 'be contacted between four and

his deal with and would she be kind enough to

talk to him.. She said that she would and to

come back at four o'clock. If the call was not

made then Oswald got this message to Silvia and

the same arraingments for Silvia's four o'clock

call were made.

Silvia Duran calls the Soviet Embassy. She

tells them the American citizen, the one who

wants

a visa to Cuba in transit to Russia, is

there.

She asks who he talked to at the Soviet

Embassy when she sent him there to get a Soviet

visa so he could get an intransit visa to Cuba.

She tells the official she is speaking with that

the man seeking the visa wants to know with whom

he spoke because he had been assured that there

would be no problem. The man at the Soviet

Embassy puts another man on the phone and silvia

goes through it again. :

He tells her that her

call will be returned.

A Soviet Official returns Silvia's call. The

situation is explained to Silvia. She realizes

that she cannot give him a visa because of the

delay on the Soviet end and the fact that he

does not know anyone in Cuba.

What does Silvia

tell Oswald who is still setting there waiting?

In light of subsequent events it was probably

something that would keep his hopes up.

Oswald goes to a party at Rubin Duran's with

Silvia and two American friends.. This may have

been, more likely was, the night of the 26th.

He is seen by Elena Garro de Paz. He spends the

night with Silvia.

---

## Page 4

Page Three.

September 28, 1963

Saturday

circa 11:00 A.M.

11:51

circa 12:00

afternoon

Oswald is back at the Soviet Embassy bugging

them to expedite his visa.

They send him back

to the Cuban Embassy to get an address.

Duran calls the Soviet Consulate and puts Oswald

on the phone.

He tells them that he is

returning

to the Soviet Embassy with the address.

Oswald returns to the Soviet Embassy and is

assured that a telegram will be sent and that

it will be handled as quickly as possible.

Oswald decides that he needs more help and

tracks down a revolutionary, pro-Castro Cuban

group on the campus of the University of Mexico.

Maybe he hopes that he can find someone who

will say they know him in Cuba. In any case,

he seeks some sort of assistance from these

Pro-Castroites.

He spends the night with them.

September 29, 1963

Sunday

Morning

Sunday Afternoon/

evening and night

September 30, 1963

Mondon

Oswald spends the day with the Pro-Castro group..

?

? Note: the association with the Cuban group

could have been anytime between the afternoon.

of 9/28 and the afternoon of 9/30. Contreras

said that he met Oswald in the afternoon and

spent the rest of the day, that night and part

of the next day with him.

October 1, 1963

10:31 A.M.

Tueadly

10:45 A.M.

later or earlier

Oswald calls the Soviet Military Attache

inquiring about a telegram. He is refered

to the Consulate.-

Oswald calls the consulate with the same inquiry

and learns that the telegram has been sent but

no reply has been received. He is discouraged.

Obyedkov hangs up on him.

Oswald calls the man with whom he had made 'his

"arrangement" and discusses the assistance that

was promised him. He is dangled and the man

eventually hangs up on him.

Oswald leaves Mexico.

later or on the 2nd.

Wedneaday

---

## Page 5

On or about

9/30/63

mondey

10/1/63

1424.

Goodpasture ties in 9/28

Soviet conversation re:

address.

10/7/63

10/8/63

10/10/63

10/16/63

10/18/63

HH 50955

DoOId: 32263505

Page 5

this may have happened

MCS recieves a transcript in which Silvia

Duran discusses an American and his prob-

lem with a Soviet Counsbl. Win Scott

writes "Can we identify?" on transcript

Goodpasture notifies Flick that an Ameri

can iS apparently trying to get a visa

and that the Cos would like to ID.

-The

Cuban and Soviet monitors are asked to

notify Flick of any conversation involving

an american, for in English. etc, HowveR

Flick is notified by a monitor thät there

is an English conversation on the Soviet

Flick listens and hears the man

ID himself as Oswald. He pulls the tape

and marks it "urgent" and notifies

Goodpasture that they have an ID on

an American. The tape is delivered to

Tarasoff for immediate transcription.

It is recieved late this day or early on

the second by Goodpasture. Disposition

of tape unknown, could "urgent" tapes

have been routinely retained for longer

period? Goodpasture now has ID but does

not know for sure that it is the one that

Scott has asked about.

The guy in the

9/27 conversation sounds real interesting

but there is nothing in this conversation,

that clearly connects.

She discusses

reporting it with Manell. There is some

disagreement over whose responsiblity it

is to report. Either decfsion is made, or

conflict continues until photos is checked.

912

Photos from 10/1, 10/2, 10/3, 10/4. (?)

are recieved in base from Soviet Embassy.

B. Manell drafts report cable. Goodpasture

adds paragraph 2.

(in interim: Goodpasture tries to ID

MMM photo? how?)

HQ response recieved.

Descriptions don't match. Controversy in

station on whether

Oswald's

conversation tied th to Tho during th7+9/zs

COMPARISON.

Oswald "p" file opened.

by this time photo of MMM recieved

at

Station. Goodpasture picks up on it.

This MMM photo one from Cubemb on 10/15.

---

## Page 6

10/21/63

10/15 MMM shown to penetration agents

by this time.

What response? MCS

cables HQ asking for a photo of LHo.

For what purpose? Was it just to compare

to surveillance photos? Were they planning

on showing to penatration agents?: why?

note: quite a few people say interest.

level was high--so what actions were

taken?

HH7 50955

DocId: 32263505

Page

6

---

## Page 7

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

01104₴

HH 50955

24 August 1978

HSCA Interview of David Atlee Phillips at HSCA Offices, 8/23/78, 1:20 to

4:35 P.M., by Dan Hardway, Charles Berk, and Gaeton Fonzi.

Mr. Phillips was reminded that the CIA omnibus release letter still

applied to our discussions and that he should feel free to answer. our

questions in spite of any secrecy oath that he may have executed during

1:

his employment with the CIA. He was asked if he remembered and under-

stood the letter and if he wanted to review the letter again.

Mr. Phillips

stated that he remembered the letter and did not think it necessary to

see the letter

again,

Mr, Phillips was asked about his activities in Mexico that related

to his job as Chief of Covert Action in

the Mexico City Station from

1961 to 1963.

Mr. Phillips was asked how many persons were in his

propoganda shop in Mexico City. He said that it was manned only by

himself, a case officer under his direction

and a secretary: He later

added that there was also one other case officer under his direction who

worked under deep cover outside of the Embassy, Mr. Phillips stated that

from 1961 to 1963 he ran only about 6 or 7 operations or projects. He

added that there would have also been many "ad hoc" actions. Under

questioning, he stated that it is possible that he was responsible for

as many as 14 to 17 ongoing operations and 3 to 6 developmental stage

operations. Most of these operations were directed

at the Cuban target

and "the great percentage of them had an

anti-Cuban or anti-Soviet bias."

Mr. Phillips was

asked about the handling of agents. He stated that

he himself handled "very very few agents, "Usually I met with someone

who was working deep cover and they in turn would handle several agents."

Mr. Phillips did recall handling one agent personally, a radio-TV

broadcaster.

He also

said that he would often meet with other agents even

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

DocId: 32263505 Page 7

---

## Page 8

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 2:

though. he was not handling them on a day to day. basis.

He stated that at

all times he had at least one deep cover officer working outside of the

Embassy and that, sometimes, he had two such officers,

Mr. Phillips stated that he did have access, and did use in some of

his propoganda activities, agents who were located outside of Mexico.

Mr. Phillips also stated that he did use a few assets that he had developed

prior to his transfer to Mexico City; he specifically recalled a man

named SAYAS who had been a newspaperman in Cuba and went to work in

Mexico City.

He said

that while he had been a propoganda officer for

the JMARC operation he had used assets that he had develöped during his

tour of duty in Havana, Mr, Phillips said that such assets were

usually handled by him personally during the Bay of Pigs:

Mr. Phillips stated that during the Bay of Pigs operation he

trayelled to Miami: "fairly frequently; every 6 weeks, 3 weeks, 5 weeks."

He stated that responsibility for propoganda operations were divided

between him and his subordinate in Miami,

William Kent, When asked to

explain that division Mr: Phillips stated;

Kent reported to my shop in washington. He had day to day

contact with the groups we were supporting down there, the

student group and the doctors of whatever, and the people

involved in Radio Swan,

Phillips stated that Radio Swan was run out of Miami, through the

mechanism of the Gibralter Steamship Company: He did say that he was

in contact with the agent who ran Radio Swan, He said that he felt uncom-

fortable naming. thần

agent and suggested we ask the Agency for his identity,

Mr, Phillips stated that when he traveled to Miami he often went

!;

to see the people he knew from Hayana, including those he was running

agents himself, He would also, on occassion meet with

agents whom

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NH 60955 DooId: 32263505 Page B

---

## Page 9

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 3;

Bill Kent was running "if Bill Kent got to the point where he felt he

would like a little weight," Sometimes he went down to Miami on a

"trouble shooting" mission, as when problems developed with a commercial

radio station the Agency was funding,

Mr. Phillips stated that he had had no recent contact with Mr:

Kent relating to änything being done by this Committee, He did state

that, approxinately a month ago when Mr. Kent retired tram die CIA, He

received a call from Mr. Kent, He said that Mr, Kent said that he was:

setting up an executive employment agency and had asked for Ma, Phillips

help in finding jobs for former employces of the agency as well as

referring people for specific skilled jobs, They did not discuss the

HSCA at a11,

according to phillipsy

Mr. Phillips stated that it would be accurate to state

that there were two "sets" of propoganda activities during

the Bay of Pigs; one that was run out of the Miami offices

coordinated by Bill Kent and a second set that he personally

ran without coordinating with Mr. Kent. Most of Mr. Phillips

prior established assets were in the second set of propoganda

operations.

Mr. Phillips said that even after he became Chief of

Cuban Operations in Mexico City he still worked very closely

with the propoganda shop, and his successor as head of that

shop, James Flannery, in propoganda operations.

Mr. Phillips said that his "Cuban shop" covered the

activities of the Cuban Embassy and that a special group

covered the airport. He said that a good deal of time was

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

HH 50955

DocId: 32263505

Page 9

---

## Page 10

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 4.

spent looking for opportunities to recruit Cubans who came to

Mexico City.

The shop also ran a debriefing center for Cubans

who

left Cuba by way of Mexico. He also said that one of the

primary activities of the Cuban shop would have been to identi-

fy the DGI officers in the Cuban Embassy and their functions,

duties and assignments whenever possible. Mr. Phillips said

that he was still involved in propaganda activities at this

time specifically recalling a Mexican broadcaster whose radio

station could be heard in Cuba. Mr. Phillips pointed out that

he had been a close friend of Mr. Flannery's and that Mr.

Flannery was made Chief of Covert Action in Mexico on his,

Phillip's, recommendation.

Mr. Phillips' said that he had "quite good" relations

with Win Scott and that he reported directly to him as opposed

to reporting through the Deputy Chief of Station which would

have been the routine manner. Mr. Phillips stated that he thought

that Robert Shaw had been in charge of the Cuban photographic

surveillance operations and that they had two penetration

agents in the Cuban Embassy. He stated that he could not

remember the names of the penetration agents and was not sure

of the cryptonyms.

Mr. Phillips was asked why his name came up so infrequently

in a review of Agency documents of this period from Mexico

City.

He said that his name should appear on any "formal

project" he had going, but that he "did like to delegate work."

He said that his name must be on many papers.

ANNATTEE SENSITIVE

NH 60955 D001d: 32263505 Page 10

---

## Page 11

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 5.

Mr. Phillips said that there was a CI responsibility in the

Cuban shop.

"You always watch out for it, but there was no

formal program."

. He said, however, that "I never really under-

stood what CI was." Phillips said that there were some CIA

officers

who made counter-intelligence their primary concern

during their entire careers but that he was not one of them.

He described the CI effectiveness of the Mexico City Station

as "average" and its Cuban section as "less than average."

Mr. Phillips stated that he was aware of the existence

of the Special Affairs Staff in Washington that dealt with

Cuban matters. He was also aware that the SAS had its own

counter-intelligence section. He recalled meeting the Chief

of that section, Hal SWENSON, on a trip to Washington. He

also said that it would have been routine for Mr. Swenson to

have traveled to Mexico City on "routine trips" or special

cases.

He said that he had probably seen Swerson in Mexico

but that he did not recall any specific meetings.

Mr. Phillips recalled that the Legat office of the U.s.

Embassy in Mexico was large; that it had 1l to 20 officers

assigned to it. He said that there was a close relationship

between the Agency station and the Legat office. He said

that the Legat

got "arop copies"" d most reparts. Te saia that

it would have been routine to advise the Legat of "interesting

cases"

and that an American reporting to a foreign embassy

would have been such a

case. He said that a local dissemination

would have definately been routine and that this liaison

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NHT 50955

DoOId: 32263605 Pade 11

---

## Page 12

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page

6

relationship would have been at least partially responsible

for reporting such a visit to Headquarters.

Mr. Phillips was queried about whether, in such a case,

it would have been routine for the Agency, station to take any

action other than just reporting the information that had come

to its

attention.

Mr. Phillips said that it could have happened

in certain circumstances,

such as if the contact looked as if

he had recruitment potential or was a serious security case.

In those instances it was possible that other actions would

be taken. Mr. Phillips remembers one such instance specifically

and pointed out that it is related in his book, Nightwatch,

on pp. 126-128. This is a story of an American military

officer who offered to spy for the Cubans and an operation

mounted against him by the Agency in Mexico. In response to

a direct question Mr. Phillips acknowledged that the Station

other than just reporting

could, and often did, take actions/in regard to Americans in

Mexico that were in contact with Soviet or Bloc Embassies

without a specific request from another interested agency; i.e.,

they often took investigative and operational action on their

own initiative.

Mr. Phillips said that

the reason that the

Station could do this was Mr. Scott's ranking

(informal) in

the agency. Mr. Phillips illustrated this point by saying

that when Mr. Scott returned to Washington to report he did

not go to the Chief of Western Hemisphere Division but directly

to either the DCI or DDP. He pointed out that Scott had been

a division chief himself prior to his assignment as Chief of

I Station in Mexico.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NN 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page

12

---

## Page 13

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page

7.

Mr. Phillips was asked if the CIA shared assets and

informants with the FBI in Mexico. He said that he did not

know of any such cases but there was coordination and liaison

with the Bureau on the surveillance operations.

Mr. Phillips acknowledged that one additional area in

which the Station and the FBI shared an interest was the

colony of American expatriates in Mexico. He said that he

was not sure of who had the responsibility for that area in

have

the Station but that it may of been Ms. Ann Goodpasture. Mr.

Phillips stated that he was not aware of any Agency liaison

in Mexico City with either Army or Navy regarding counter-

intelligence or counter-espionage cases.. He said that he had

never heard of any arguments that may have occured concerning

whose responsibility it was to report Oswald's initial contact

with the Soviet Embassy or about the extensiveness of the

Station's reporting after the assassination.

Mr. Phillips does remember Viola June COBB. "Blonde,

flew an airplane, track record for hitting a lot of beds in

Cuba, had a twin

sister involved in aviation. That's what

comes to mind."

He vaguely remembers messages or reports

from or about her coming out of his Cuban shop but he believes

that she was run out of Washington or Miami as an asset and

that someone from one of those two places would have regularly

come to Mexico to run her.

Mr. Phillips stated that he did not recall an officer

with a hair lip or who spoke with a lisp.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

RH 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 13

---

## Page 14

Phillips, page 8.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips stated that he did not know if Ms. Cobb was also

an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Phillips stated that he recalls three or four members of

the Warren Commission staff coming to Mexico. He said that

he may have chatted with them informally but he had no formal

dealings with them.

He said that they spent most of their

time with Mr.

scott.

Mr. Phillips said that he first heard the name of Silvia

Duran about the time he arrived in Mexico, as soon as he started

reading the telephone tap transcripts. "Her name appeared

time

and time again." He added: "We had no interest in her. She

wasn't friendly with anyone." Mr. Phillips had previously

mentioned, in his discussion of the Cuban shop's interest in

recruiting agents, the name of Ambassador Lachuga and their

interest in pitching him. Mr. Phillips was shown Slawson's

memo concerning his trip to Mexico where Scott told him that

the CIA had a substantial prior interest in Duran because of

her affair with Lachuga. Phillips seemed surprised and said

"No one let me in on this operation." Mr. Phillips said that

it is possible that the Agency pitched Duran. "At one time

we pitched almost everyone at the Cuban Embassy. She must

have been considered." Mr. Phillips said that it was possible

that she was not pitched because the station could not identify

any of her weaknesses. At this point Mr. Phillips was told

about the LITAMEL/9 reports on Duran that said that all that

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

HW 50955

DooId: 32263505

Page 14

---

## Page 15

Phillips, page

9.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

all that would have to be done to recruit her was get a blonde,

blue eyed American in bed with the little "puta." Mr. Phillips

admitted that it sounded like she had at least been targeted

and that the station's interest was substantial and that the

weakness

and means had been identified.

He pointed out,

however, that targeting does not necessarily mean

that she

had been pitched, or, even if she was pitched, that she had

accepted the pitch. Mr. Phillips said that he was not aware

that a pitch had been made.

Phillips stated that Ms. Duran's 201 file should be

"very thick"

• He stated that a thin 201 file prior to the

assassination "would be very surprising". He said that a

name trace should come up with at least a lot of 3x5 cards

that predate the assassination.

Mr. Phillips stated that he saw Lachuga only three times

after he left Cuba: once on an airplane from Miami--"we just

nodded"-; once at the inauguration of Mexican President

Diaz Ordaz; and once when he was having lunch at a fancy

resturant near the American Embassy in Mexico. On the last.

encounter Phillips said that he knew Lachuga was going to

be there and that he had specifically gone there to talk to

him. He said that Lachuga turned off all the advances he made.

Phillips was asked why the Agency had sent a cable to

Mexico after Ms. Duran's arrest saying "don't allow any

Americans to have contact with her." (paraphrase). He

said: "Don't know. I can't tell you why they did that. I

can't guess why." He said that he was not aware that the

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NW 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 15

---

## Page 16

Phillips, page 10.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Warren

Commission

staffers who

were in Mexico wanted to talk

to Duran.

He said that he knew Clarence BOONSTRA well, that

the last he heard he was in North Florida, but that he had

never discussed the assassination or Oswald with him.

Mr. Phillips

said that he vaguely remembered that win

Scott did have a safe in his office. He guessed that Scott

and his secretary would have been the only people who had

access

to that saff. He said that Scott had had several

secretaries over a period and that he only remembers the first

name of one of them: Dottie. He said that he had no idea of

personallyy

what Scott kept in his safe. He said that when he was chief

of station in the Dominican Republic, Brazil and Venezuela,

he kept really "very sensitive" material in his safe in his

office.

He assumes that the same would have been true of Mr.

scott. Phillips offered the example that someone would call

and say that someone at the Embassy was a prostitute, he would

GA d

note that for the record in keep it in the private safe. He

guessed that the material in the safe would have been material

Scott generated himself. He said that memos of meetings with

the Mexican president in which sensitive topics were discussed

would have been a likely candidate for retention in Scott's

safe. He said that he does not know what happened to scott's

safe after he died but that he has heard a vague story that

someone went out and found a lot of documents that Scott had

kept.

Mr. Phillips stated that he thought that the Chief of

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NN 50955

DocId: 32263505 Page 16

---

## Page 17

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 11.

the DGI in Mexico

was a man named "LUNA."

Mr. Phillips was asked about the story in his book con-

cerning the DGI officer with the penchant for antique jewelry.

that appears at page 133. He said that he does not remember the

name of that person, but says he took some literary license

because he doesn't specifically recall if the person was,

in

fact, a DGI officer. "Thank God my next book is fiction,"

he said.

Phillips was asked about the following DGI officers:

Orestes Guillermo Ruiz Perez--"vaguely familiar";

Rogelio Rodriguez Lopez--"Yes, familiar.";

Manual Vega--could have been Chief of DGI;

Luisa Calderh--"familiar";

Teresa Proenza--"definitely familiar";

Alfredo Mirabal--"familiar";

Eusebio Azcue--the consul, "to my knowledge he was not Cuban

intelligence.".

Mr. Phillips was asked if Proenza was a CIA asset. He

said "The name is familiar but I don't recall the context."

He also could not remember if Luisa Calderon had been an asset..

He said: "I don't really remember the true names of the

agents.

I never saw them or dealt with them." He stated that he could

not remember whether the Agency had ever pitched Ruiz but that

"there were several attempts to pitch intelligence types."

Mr. Phillips was shown Carlos Blanco's report of 28 June

1963. He stated that he had probably seen it previously but

does not remember it specifically. He said that the name

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NN 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 17

---

## Page 18

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 12.

Carlos Blanco had probably been made up for the purposes of

this one report. He said that he recalled the name of Luisa

Calderon a bit better after reading the document. He said

that she may have been the asset who worked in the Embassy

for the Agency but he still could not be certain because he

could not recall the true names. He said that he did not

know if there would have been a "further report" and that, if

there was, it would not have necessarily been sent to Head-

quarters unless it had been of special interest.

Mr. Phillips was then shown the dispatch concerning

Luisa's sister. (CIA # 3715.) He said that he does not know

whether she was ever identified, contacted or used. He said

that he had never heard of a "domestic exploitation section"

and pointed out that the words were not capitalized.

Mr. Phillips stated that he did know Mr. Barney Hidalgo.

He does not recall him ever being in Mexico but said that it

was possible that Mr. Hidalgo could have been there and that

he would not have known about it. He said that he had on

occassion worked with Mr. Hidalgo. He said that. Hidalgo did

not have any executive talents, but he was involved in a lot

of operations. He said that Hidalgo had some problems: "I

don't want to say he was crazy, but I was always uncomfortable

around him."

Mr. Phillips also recognized the cryptonym

AMMUG/ 1.

Mr. Phillips was shown CIA #'s 3665 and 3662 which are

reports from AMMUG that the Cubans believed that Calderon had

been recruited by the CIA and had, therefore, called her back

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

HW 50955 DocId:32263505 Page 18

---

## Page 19

Phillips, page 13.

COMIVELTEE SENSITIVE

to Cuba.

Mr. Phillips said that that did not help him recall

that much about Calderon other than to make him think that

she was not a CIA agent "because she went back to Cuba."

Mr. Phillips stated that he was not aware that after the

assassination that Thomas Mann expressed a great deal of interest

in the Mexico City investigation. He also said that he did not

know why Mann would have been pressing for the arrest and

questioning of Luisa Calderon. He said that, in fact, he had

never known or heard that such was the case.

Mr. Phillips was shown the transcript of the Calderon

call. (CIA 3717.) He said "I've seen this document before...

when we were reviewing things after the assassination." He

was asked what the Mexico Station had done to follow up on

that conversation. He said that he could not recall that any-

thing was done other than forwarding the conversation to Head-

quarters.

He said that he did not know what Headquarters had

done with it. He said that he could not remember being tasked

or his shop being tasked, with anything concerning this lead.

He said that he did not know if this conversation was given

to the wc by he but acknowledged that it was not shown to the

staff members who visited Mexico. He does not recall any specific

follow up regarding Calderon. He does not know why Calderon

was not arrested.

The section of Carlos Blanco's report concerning Teresa

Proenza was pointed out to Phillips. He said that he thought

the report may have been written by a person used by the station

that thought that everyone was a communist. He said this may

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NN 50955 DooId: 32263505 Page 19

---

## Page 20

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 14.

have been LIHUFF/1.

He said that the document did not help

his memory that much and that "I don't know of any reason why

she would be termed dangerous."

Phillips was

shown the LITAMEL/9 contact report regarding

the firing of Teresa Proenza (CIA # 3714.). Mr. Phillips

stated that he dos not know why Teresa Proenza was fired. He

said that he did recognize the cryptonym AMROD. He said that

it was a disinformation operation and that it may have been

aimed, in part, at Teresa Proenza. He said that the person

in his book that he refers to as a cultural ataache with

a penchant for antique jewelry was not Teresa Proenza. He said

that he remembers that the person he refers to in that story

was definately a man. Phillips stuck adamantly to this contention.

Phillips stated that he does not recall that the Mexico

City Station ever developed any information that Oswald was in

contact with anyone else at the Cuban Embassy other than

Azcue and Duran. Mr. Phillips was shown the FBI report of an

interview with Ms. Proenza's brother. Mr. Phillips stated that

it did not ring any bells and he could not recall ever having

heard of such a thing. Mr. Phillips was also informed of the

FBI report from a CIA source that indicated that Oswald had

had contact with Proenza. He said that he had never heard of

it. Mr. Phillips then stated that some things were coming

back to him. He asked if Proenza was a lesbian but he didn't

recall if that was a fact or

part of the disinformation campaign

aimed at her.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NN 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 20

---

## Page 21

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 15.

...

The timing of the departures of Calderon and Proenza was

pointed out to Mr. Phillips as well as the indications that

they had met Oswald, had prior knowledge of the assassination,

the nominal reason regarding Proenza over the Raul Roa note.

He was asked if he knew if their recalls were connected and

if they

were connected with the assassination. He said that

he did not know, maybe Calderon and Proenza had been lovers,

but that may have been part of the disinformation, he just

could not remember which, fact or fiction.

Mr. Phillips stated that it was very possible that Ho

Cuban

Or IMWAVE could have recruited and run/agents in Mexico without

the knowledge of the Mexico Station. Phillips said: "I suppose

it would have been possible for an agent in Mexico City to

be run out of JMWAVE station in Miami without my knowledge,

but I would have been furious if I found out about it:. He

said that this may have even been "probable" in the case of a

"sensitive operatid," but he pointed out that anyone doing

that took the risk of crossing Win Scott who was close to both

the DCI and DDP. This lead Mr. Phillips to say that if that

was the case then the DDP, at least, would probably have

approved the WAVE use of an agent in Mexico. We took Mr.

Phillips through the documents on Ms. Calderon again and

asked him if this could have been an instance such as that

we were talking about. He said that it very well could have

been but that he had no knowledge that would indicate that that

was the case. He said that this was the kind of thing "they

might have asked Barney Hidalgo to do." Phillips agreed that

H7 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 21

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

---

## Page 22

Phillips, page 16.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

CIA #3665 indicates that a pitch to Calderon was to be made

by someone outside of Mexico. "If it was someone from the CIA

there would be something in her 201 files... but possibly it

could have been

run out of a soft file." He said that her

file

should be substantial. He said he could not explain why the

Calderon conversation would not have been in her 201 while it

was

in Oswald's.

Mr. Phillips was informed of the testing of the impulse

camera beginning on September 27, 1963. He stated that he had

"no recollection" of the disposition of the photographs obtained

during that testing.

Mr. Phillips stated that if another cable (a third) was

sent to HQ regarding Oswald prior to the assassination that he

did not know about it.

Mr. Phillips was asked if there was a way for He and a

Station to communicate without the commo becoming part of the

permanent record.

He stated that there was at least one way

that he knew of in addition to telephone and personal courier.

He said that it was technically possible to set up a "telcom"

system by persuading the cable operators to set it up on a

"back channel"

He stated that such a system would work on a

question and answer sheme. He said "It has been done on occassion

but I don't recall it ever having been done in Mexico." Mr.

Phillips also stated that he did not believe that there had

been any telephone communications concerning the assassination.

Refuting documents were not shown.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

HW 50955

DocId: 32263505 Page 22

---

## Page 23

Phillips, page 17.

CONMITTEE SENSITIVE

Mr. Phillips acknowledged that the FBI would manipulate

their files on employees of the CIA at the Agency's behest.

He also said that he would not be surprised if other catagories

of files could be manipulated, including internal CIA files.

Mr. Phillips was asked what factors would make him suspicious

of a file. He said that missing references, pages that had

half of them torn off, things like that would arouse his sus-

picion. He also listed a missing report from a sequentially

numbered series of reports as one thing that would arouse his

suspicion. In response to a direct question, Mr. Phillips said

that, if what we had told him about Ms. Duran's file was true,

then we:could be fairly certain that her file had been "manip-

ulated. "

Mr. Phillips was asked about James Angleton. He said:

"He didn't tell me anything about his operations. He kept

promising to tell me, but he never did." He said that Angleton

held his operation very tightly to his vest. Phillips said

it is possible that J.C. King mignt have had some operations

outside of the JMARC structure but that they could not have

been funded without someone

knowing about them. A division

chief does have access to operational and developmental funds

but, Phillips said, he has never heard of a discretionary fund

available to Division Chiefs. He said that the developmental

fund usually had a lot of money in it but that it eventually

had to be accounted for. "I can't remember having such a fund

that I didn't account for through the DDP."

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NH 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 23

---

## Page 24

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 18.

Mr. Phillips said that he did not participate, nor was

he aware of, in any campaign after the assassination to spread

misinformation about the death of Kennedy. He could not explain

why the misinformation that came from the Cuban groups and

individuals that tended to point to Castro involvement were

predominantly from assets that he had handled personally as

opposed to ones that had been ran out of the Miami station..

He said that he agreed that it was strange that the one peice

of evidence that tended to show at least DGI foreknowledge

was not pursued by his shop while disinformation from his former

assets occupied the attentions of investigators in that area.

Mr. Phillips stated that he did not kow of any hard evidence

that existed in 1963 that pointed to Castro's involvement.

Mr. Phillips was asked about his operations in Havana,

specifically the names of the operations he was involved in,

when he worked there as a covert operative from 1958 to 1961.

He said he went to Cuba in the summer of 1958 after he had retired

from the Agency. He said the Agency heard he was setting up

his own public relations business there and asked him to

continue working for them, not on a staff status but on a

contract basis.

Most of his work, he said, involved propaganda

operations for Latin American countries and not Cuba. He did

do what he termed "ad hoc" stuff as it came along and he did

develop propaganda news stories and editorial material that was

sent out to the provincial newspapers. He also specifically

recalled attending a meeting of a group of businessmen who:

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

NW 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 24

---

## Page 25

Phillips, page 19.

DONMITTEE SENSITIVE

began talking about developing anti-Castro activity, but that

group

never got off the ground because there was an informant in the

group and most of the participants were shortly afterwards

arrested.

When asked about his relationsip with Julio Lobo, he

became a bit upset and said he thought he had covered that

adequately in his deposition. He says as far as he can

can recall

he met Lobo only one time, perhaps it was even in Madrid and

not Havana, he doesn't recall, and he had no substantial dealings

with him. He wanted to know if Veciana's story about Bishop

is still being considered and if any decision about his being

Bishop had ben

conclusively arrived at. He said he doesn't

like living under the fear and tension of possibly being called

before the television cameras and having Veciana suddenly stand

up and point his finger at him and say that he is Bishop and

that

he saw him with Oswald. Phillips was told by the interviewers

that they had no authority to disclose anything of substance

about our investigation to him. He asked that the interviewers

seek permission to let him know what was going on. He was told

that his request would be brought to high-level attention but

that a response of any kind. at all could not be assured.

Phillips

stated that he did not know Paul Bethel very

well. but it was not Bethel who introduced him to Lopez-Frescuet.

He said that that introduction was made by Bethel's boss,

Dick Cushing.

Phillips said that he had no additional recollections

on Jack Cogswell other than he remembered that he was an

H7 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 25

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

---

## Page 26

HH7 50955

Phillips, page 20.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

American businessman in Havana.

Mr. Phillips

stated that he "probably" did have some

contacts with someone or some persons associated with the Moa

Bay Mining Company, but he did not recall any specific names.

He also

"must have" had some contact with Freeport Sulpher

people

"I was fairly socially active at the time and the

name of the company is familiar to me."

Mr. Phillips said that he did not have many public relations

clients during that time. He could recall only the man who

owned Ambar Motors and the El Mundo newspaper. He also traded

for free French lessons at

the Berlitz School although he can

not recall exactly what kind of public relations work he did

in return.

Phillips did not recall the name Darnell.

He said that he did know Wayne Smith, political attache

at the American Embassy, very well. He remembered him as a

big guy because they were in a little theatre group together

and in one play Phillips had to throw Smith out of a window.

Phillips said that he did not know Roberto Vale.

Phillips was asked about the procedure of traveling out of

the country on covert operations. He said he always traveled

out under his true name and with his legitimate passport. He

would have

other

documentation on him for use with his alias

when he arrived in the country. He said that's the way it was

always done by every agent as far as he knew unless it was a

"very sensitive operation." He knew of no specific sensitive

operation in which a phoney passport was issued by the agency.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

DocId: 32263505 Page 26

---

## Page 27

Phillips,

page 21.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

"I don't know how that mechanism worked," he said. He added

that he had never had a phoney passport.

Mr. Phillips said that he had met McClendon (Gordon)

once when't they were in college. He said that he had not seen

him again until September of 1976 when he attended a Retired

Intelligence Officers meeting. Later McClendon had called him

and reminded him of an incident mentioned in Nightwatch involving

a shool day's episode and MecClendon told him that he was the

kid who picked him up in his car. As far as Phillips can recall,

he never had any contact with McClendon during the intervening

years.

He never met McClendon at any time during 1963 in Dallas.

Phillips stated that he has no familiarity with the

Catherwood Foundation or Cummins Caterwood or E. Wharton Shober.

He was not specifically familiar with the Foundation's Cuban

Aid Relief operation in Miami.

Phillips said that the debriefing centers in Miami were under

the aegis of the CIA but the Agency only got the product from

them, they were actually run by another agency. He said that

they may have been ran by military intelligence. He said that

he had never met any of the supervisory personnel who ran those

centers.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

HH 50955

DocId: 32263505 Page 27

---