Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
Document date: 09/18/1978

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180-10142-10418

STAFF COPY

topey

Kennedy Hearings

Previous Statements

September 18, 1978

10142-10418

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## Page 2

EXPLANATORY NOTE

CIA HAS NO OBJECTION IU

DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR

RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT

Kp

DUE TO THE LARGE VOLUME OF MATERIAL TO BE

INCLUDED IN THE BRIEFING BOOKS FOR THE KENNEDY SUBCOMMITTEE

HEARING ON MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, 1978, THE MATERIAL WILI

BE PRESENTED IN TWO SECTIONS.

THIS BOOK CONTAINS A COMPILATION OF STATEMENTS

MADE TO COMMITTEE PERSONNEL BY SEVERAL OF THE WITNESSES

TO BE HEARD ON MONDAY DURING THE COURSE OF INTERVIEWS

CONDUCTED EARLIER IN 1978.

Silvia Duran (remarried, now Tirado) was the

secretary at the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City in 1963.

Eusebio Azcue Lopez was a consular official who

served at the Cuban Embassy during the period Lee Harvey

Oswald allegedly visited the Embassy in Mexico City.

Alfredo Mirabal Diaz was a consular officer who

also was on duty at the Cuban Embassy during the time in

question.

i

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## Page 4

KENNEDY

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

Name

Address

Silvia Tirado (Duran)

Date June 6, 19.78

Place

Time

Interview:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Would you state your name?

Silvia Tirado Bazan.

And where's your present home address?

Avenida

Universidad 1900 Edificio 12 Departmento 402

Colonia Numero De Terrenos

For the record, my name is Gary Cornwell, and

with me here is Ed Lopez, Harold Leap and Dan

Hardway. We represent the House Select Committee

on Assassinations of the Congress of the United

States.. Also with us here today representing

the Mexican Government is Honorio Escondon, Dr.

Alfonso Orozco Contreras. Today is June 6, 1978

and the time is approximately 5:45 in the after-

noon.

Would you tell us what your date and place of

birth is?

Tirado:

22nd of November, 1937.

Cornwell:

You speak English so if you like my questions

Interviewer Signature .

Typed Signature _Gary Cornwell

Date transcribed

BY :

br 6-19-78

Form

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## Page 5

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 2.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

translated we'll be happy to, and likewise, if

you'd like to answer in English that would be

fine, or if you'd rather answer in Spanish, we'll

translate it.

I try to speak in English.

All right. If you have any question about the

way I phrase something or you don't understand it,

simply ask and Mr. Lopez will translate it for you.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Your name is 1963 was what?

Silvia Tirado de Duran.

And your husband at that time was who?

Horacio Duran.

Are you presently employed?

Yes.

Where's that?

Social Security.

Prior to that, what jobs did you hold?

A 1ong while, Social Security. I used to write.

And any other jobs?. Have you

held any other jobs?

No.

At one time you worked for the Cuban Consulate.

Yes.

Is that the only other job you ever held?

No.

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## Page 6

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 3.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Well, let's say back, since about 1960, could

you tell us what the history of your employment

is?

Have you had many jobs?

I don't remember

exactly, but uh, I used to work

for the Olympic Games. I was a translator

for two months. And uh, another three months

I used to work for the, I don't know, it was an

Exhibit of Hispanic Art that was, I don't know

he went all over the world and I helped him

to choose the pieces and as translator. I was

married in 1960. I separate in '68, July '68

and I start working.

During 1963, did you hold any jobs during that

year other than your employment at the Cuban

Consulate?

NO.

When did you first obtain the job at the Consulate

and how did you obtain it.

well, because I was uh, coordinating the Cuban,

the Mexican-Cuban Institute, the cultural

Institute in '62, I think, and that's where

I met some people. Yes.

That was a private organization,

'is' that correct?

It's not exactly private. I don't know because

all the countries have--there is the American

there is the Russian Institute,

Institute, there is the French Institute.

It's cultural relations between the countries.

Was that associated with the Mexican Government?

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## Page 7

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

4.

Tirado:

I don't know exactly, but I think--you know

that.

(Asks Orozco)

(Translation) The objective

is to present culturally the dif-

of

Orozco

ferent embassies and consulates that are here in

Mexico.

Cornwell: What was your job with that organization?

Tirado:

coordinator.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

And in connection with that, did you know any

of the employees at the Cuban Consulate?

Yes, at the Cultural Attache.

And what were the names of those gersons?

Teresa Proenza and Luis Alberu.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

And who?

Luis Alberu

Did you in any other way know any of the other

employees at the Consulate?

Yes, well I knew Azcue, Eusebio Azcue who was

a consul, and uh, Maria Carman

Olivari

- she's

dead.

She, in the summer of 1963, was a secretary. Is

that correct? (If you nod your head, the recorder

will not make any record of what your answer is.)

Yes.

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## Page 8

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 5.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

would you then explain to us how it was that you

obtained the job at the Consulate?

Because my friend Maria Carman, she was dead--

she had an accident, and during the funeral I told

Azcue that if he wants me to help him, for some

people come from Cuba, just to help him. And of

course he says yes. They need some people they

can trust, and I'd been working in the Institute.

So...

How was it that you knew Eusebio Azcue

by

this time?

I don't remember, because he was uh, he was an

Architect and he knew a lot of people, friends of

ours, I mean my husband and I.

Had he lived in

• Mexico for a long period of time?

Yes, yes.

And, because of his occupation, he would have known

your husband. Is that correct?

Yeah, more or less.

Your husband Horacio

was also an architect

at that time.

Industrial designer. Yes,

sir.

Approximately when was it that you first obtained

the job?

The end of July or August, early August.

I don't

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Silvia Tirado

Interview

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Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

remember exactly.

And for how long did you continue to work

there?

Three or four months.

How long after the assassination of President

Kennedy did you work there?

Only two days.

During that period of time what were the hours of

operation of the Consulate?

It was about 9:30 or 10:00 to 2:00 and in the

afternoon about 5:00 to 8:00 or something. If we

have a lot of work, we stayed longer.

The hours were 10:00 to 2:00 and then 5:00 to

8:00. Is that correct?

Yes, that's true.

Was the Consulate open for visitors during both

of those sets of hours?

No, it was just in the morning.

Would you mind sketching for us what the physical

layout of the Consulate looked like at that time?

(pause) You have drawn a rectangular shape. What

formed the outside of it? Was it á sólid wall around

the outside? Was the outside of the premises a

wall?

Yes.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

All right. And we'll just mark it the way you

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Silvia Tirado Interview

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Tirado:

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Tirado:

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

drew it. In the lower left-hand corner, there is

a small box you drew.

What is that?

The consular.

That's the consulate's office?

Yes.

All right. We'll just put a one in that box, so

we'll know that's the consulate's office. Then,

the door was

...where, on the corner?...you

remember the name of the streets, still today?

This

is Tacubayo. This is Francisco

Marquez.

You want me to write it down?

If you remember, yes.

Here were the houses.

All right. You've labeled three sides of the

building with street names and on the fourth side

which on the too of the drawing, you said they are

houses. Correct?

Yes.

What is in the long triangular shape on the draw-

ing above the Consular

office?

It was the commercial office.

All right. We'll just put a two

In there. That's.

And here was the cultural office.

And behind that, we'll mark it with a three, was

the cultural office. In the center of the drawing

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Silvia Tirado Interview

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

LopeZ:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

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Tirado:

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is what?

The Embassy.

All right. We'll put a four in that.

That's

the Embassy.

And what's the small box in the

lower right-hand corner?

I don't know how to say it in

English.

An entryway?

Housekeeper.

Oh, a housekeeper? Okay. We'll put a five in

there.

What is all the rest of the space inside the pre-

mises?

Garden, it was garden. And here

was the entrance

for the cars.

And where you indicated there was an entrance for

cars, we'll mark

that

seven.

And all the interior

space which was garden, we'll mark with an eight.

Down here there was a movie room.

Where, behind the.

.?

Behind the cultural room?

Want to draw that?

No, because this is the first floor.

Oh, it was on the second floor.

Yeah.

On the first floor was a projection.

movies.

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Silvia Tirado Interview

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Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Were

the space which we

marked one, two, three

and also four, were they all two-story?

Yeah.

Okay.

And above the space marked one, what was

there?

The Consulate.

So it was on two floors.

No, there was another floor over here but it was

belongs to the commercial. ..Only on the first

floor was the consulate:

I see.

What would be behind the Consulate on the

first floor? In this area marked two?

•I don't remember.

You don't remember.

So, where we marked two,

that was a second story in that area. Correct?

Warehouse perhaps.

Just a storage area or something like that, perhaps,

in the lower area marked two.

In the space marked number one, which was the con-

sular's Office, who all occupied that area?

well, Consul, the Vice Consul and the secretary.

Which was you.

Yes.

During the time that we're interested in.

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## Page 13

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 10.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

The Consul's name of course was. Eusebio Azcue.

The Vice Consul's name was what?

I don't remember.

All right.

This was Consulate.

All right. You have divided the area that we

originally marked number one into two units.

The smaller unit indicates where the Consul sat

and you sat in a larger reception area in the

front?

All right. And

then, behind the Consul's office,

was there another door? You marked that with

a heavier area, and that would be where he could

walk out into the courtyard. Is that correct?

So if you wanted to get into the consul's office,

including the

reception area from the courtyard,.

you needed to walk through

the Consul's Office.

Is that accurate?

Yes.

Now, what kind of a door was at the corner, the

lower left-hand corner here, so that if

one were to walk from your office to the street,

what kind of door was that? Glass, wood, solid,

could you see through it?

No, it was solid. I don't remember exactly, but

perhaps it was wood. But it was solid.

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Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 11.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

You don't remember being able to see out on

• the

street?

No, no.

Okay.

You enter the Consulate right, in here?

Uh huh.

And your office would be right around here.

Right?

My desk was

here.

You have drawn

I a small box now inside the larger

half of the area we originally marked area number

one, that's where your desk was?

Yes.

From where you sat to the entrance into the office

where you were, where would the entrance into the

office be? Not into the whole consulate, but just

into your office?

It was open.

Okay, it was open.

You would enter here. Here was the stairs for the

second floor, No? -- and here I think there were

chairs, or something like that. ,Fof the people who

were waiting. And the desk was here:

Okay. Where would the entrance to your office be?

Here, or here.

Just to your office, not to the Consul's office.

Not the Consulate, but just to your office.

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Silvia Tirado Interview

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Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

It would be at the

same entrance?

Yes:

And from where you sat, you couldn't see outside

at all?

No.

You couldn't see any area in the yard? There was

no glas

No.

I can remember glass, a window, yeah. I can

remember windows here, and perhaps here, but I don't

remember.

Okay. There may have been windows for you to see

out in the street?

Yeah, but I couldn't

see outside because perhaps

they were very high.

While Mr. Lopez was asking you questions, he drew

a diagonal line across your office space. Does

that represent anything? That line should not

have been drawn, is that correct?

Yeah. (Laughs.)

..-.

Now, did you know a Teresa Proenza?

Was she

employed at the. Consulate of the Embassy?

The Embassy. She was the Cultural Attache.

She would have worked in the area marked number four?

Is that correct?

Well, yes. But this was, this construction was uh,

afterwards. This was the Embassy and the Consulate

and this building was

under

construction,

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Silvia Tirado Interview

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Tirado;

Cornwell:

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constructed. A building.

Constructed?

Later.

It was the old buildings.

Did she work there during the same period of

time you did?

Yes.

At that period where did she work?

What area?

Here.

That's the area we marked number three on the

diagram.

Did you know a Louisa Calderon?

Louisa? Yes, she was in the commercial. ..

And where would that be on the diagram? In the

area we marked number two?

I think her office was exactly above mine.

She was a secretary. And I think it was above.

Either above the area we marked one, or the area

marked two, but on the second level.

Yes.

Do you know the names of any other employees who

worked there at the time?

No, I don't remember.

The man named

Mirabal

, he was to replace

Eusebio Azcue, is that correct?

Yes.

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## Page 18

Silvia Tirado Interview

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Cornwell:

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Cornwell:

Tirado:

And do you recall approximately when he arrived

in Mexico City and began to learn the job so he

could take it over from Eusebio Azcue?

I didn't understand, what did you say please?

Do you remember approximately when he arrived?

And began to learn

the work from Azcue.

No, some weeks earlier, I don't remember.

Would it be accurate to state that your best memory

as you told us when we spoke to you informally

before we turned the tape recorders on,

• that

he was already there when you met the man you

later identified as Oswald?

Yes.

NOW ...

But he wasn't there when I started working at the

Embassy, at the Consulate.

Okay. So he must have arrived in late summer or

perhaps September, or something like that.

Yes.

Now, were there telephones in

the office?

Here.

You had one at your desk?

This is the desk and here was a little table.

I. think it was the telephone. Here was the

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## Page 19

' Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 15:

safe box. And here was the Archivo.

Lopez:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

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Archives.

So you've drawn two smaller boxes next to your

desk.

One of them was like a filing cabinet, or

for storage of records?

Yes.

This one.

The Files.

And the other one was a table.

No, here was the safe box.

oh,

a

safe.

I see, a safe.

And there was a phone at the desk?

Yes.

And did Azcue also have a telephone?

Yes, it was the same but with an extension.

Extension.

Here was the door.

All right.

1963, where were you living?

Did you have more than one residence?

Yes.

Constituyentes

143.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

And during what part of 1963

was

that?

When I moved there?

Before I started working, at the Embassy.

But

just a few weeks.

So sometime in the summer of 1963? Did you have

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Silvia Tirado Interview

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a telephone at your home?

Not at the moment that Oswald came.

Because

we had just moved. I think we moved in

July because we were separated in July, also,

July '68 and it is when the contract finished.

So perhaps..

I see.

Your rent contract ran out in July of '68?

Yes.

About the same time that you and Horatio were di-

vorced?

Yes.

Did you, you say that because of your move, it took

some time to get a telephone in your home?

Yes.

And do you remember approximately when it was that

you finally got that in?

At the assassination we had, a, let me see, we

didn't have telephone--days later.

It was sometime after the assassination that you

first got a telephone in this residence.

Yes.

And do you by any chance recall the telephone num-

ber at the Consulate?

Oh,

so many times I write it down.

Perhaps it

was 11-28-45, perhaps?

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## Page 21

Silvia Tirado Interview

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Tirado:

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Tirado:

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Could it have been 11 28 47?

Perhaps.

When were you first advised that we wanted to

speak to you?

Last week.

And since that time, of course, last Wednesday,

I believe it was, we spoke to you informally,

and told you basically what we were interested in.

And learned most of what you could remember about

the events we were interested in. Correct?

Yes.

Apart from that, have you had any other opportuni-

ties to read anything, or speak to anyone, in

order to refresh your memory about the events?

Yes. In October of '76 some journalist from the

Washington Post came to interview me.

We are familiar

with the story that appeared in

the Washington Post at approximately that time.

have you for instance read

apart from that

the Warren Commission Report?

Yes.

When did you last have an occasion to read that?

Uh, when

Horacio

told me you were coming,

I was writing, and I try to remember exactly and I'm

starting saying that again, the nightmare came,

and

SO o

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## Page 22

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 18.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

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Tirado:

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

and so on, and I wanted to check the dates.

So, last week sometime, you had a chance to

read it over again?

No, not everything just the one little thing.

Just the part that dealt with Mexico City and

your testimony and that sort of thing. Correct?

Yes.

Let me ask you, when you read that, was there any

part of it that seemed to you to be inaccurate?

Inaccurate?

Not correct.

Not Correct? Yes, but with the warren Commission,

I get angry when I start reading it because they

make some afirmacionnes (ph):

Allegations or conclusions.

Yes. I don't like it. So I tried to erase it.

Okay. What specifically about the report was it

that makes you angry?

That I was a -- let me see how to say it--, I

don't remember exactly. but uh, I did more to Oswald

when he was here than was my job, that it was extra.

You mean part of the report that suggests that you

went beyond your duties at the Consulate, that you

exceeded your authority, and you thought that

you did not do so. Is that correct?

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Silvia Tirado Interview

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Tirado:

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Tirado:

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Tirado:

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Correct.

Is there anything else about the Warren Commis-

sion Report's resume of the facts that you felt

was inaccurate, that made you mad?

I cannot answer that because. I only

read at that

time two pages. I didn't read

the whole thing.

Okay. In addition to looking at that in order to

refresh your memory, have you had a chance to

speak to any one else?

No, it was just for checking my writing.

What writing was that?

Well, I was trying to remember everything that

happened in the interrogatory. It was not hard,

I mean, what I felt, but un, what the police

had done to me, so it was my

but I'm

writing, I'm writing an autobiographia

how do you say that, and this is a

chapter.

I see.

(Laughs.)

Directing your attention then to/approximately

late September of 1963, as we learned from you the

other day, a man came to the Consulate, a man who

you later associated with pictures in the news-

paper and a name in the newspaper of the alleged

assassin of the President. Is that correct?

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Silvia Tirado Interview

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Yes.

Do you remember how many times he came to the

Consulate?

Three times.

Do you remember the date or dates upon which those

three visits

occurred?

No, I saw the application.

you showed me the other day, and in the Warren

Commission was September 27, but I didn't remember,

of course, until I read it..

All right. Do you have a recollection whether it

was all on one day or on separate days.

The same day.

On the very first visit, would you describe to us

what the man said and did, and what you said in

response?

Yes, he, well, he enter and he ask me if I speak

English and I say yes, and then he start asking

me about requirements to go to Cuba, to get a

visa to go to Cuba, and I explain it.

What did you explain?

Well, that he needed to, he said that a

transit visa

so that he needs á visa to the

country

that he was going, from; if it was a

Socialist country, the visa was given, as soon

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## Page 25

Silvia Tirado Interview

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Cornwel:

Tirado:

as he gets the other visa, and uh. .

When he first asked about the requirements for

a visa, did he tell you that his objective was

to go to cuba or to another country?

To the soviet Union.

Did you ever suggest to him that there was any

alternative means to acquire a visa other than

the in-transit visa requirement which you just

described?

I don't remember, I mean I hardly remember. But

what I used to say is if you want to go to Cuba,

you need or you have to have friends in Cuba, so

they may, what do you say, take responsibility, if you

get the visa. That was one way, no? And the

other way was in-transit.

Okay. If I understand then, you don't have a

distinct recollection about exactly what you said

to. Oswald, but you assumed it was what you said

to everyone who came in, which was that you ex-

plained both processes, that they either must

have friends in Cuba or the in-transit visa could

be granted if they got a visa from

another country.

No, if only they asked me. Because they usually

go there and say, "I want to go to Cusa." But

if they say I'm just in transit, then I explain

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## Page 26

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

22.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Okay, then. Let me see if I can rephrase it and

get what's in your mind as best we can.

Is it your best recollection

that you did explain

both alternatives to Oswald?

I don't remember exactly, because I think he im-

mediately says that he wants to

go to Russia, and

he was in transit to go to Cuba. I think he im-

mediately says so.

Okay.

so then your best recollection that you

may have only explained the in-transit visa pro-

cess. Is that correct?

Yes.

But, I gather from the way you have answered the

question, there is still the possibility that you

also discussed with him going to Cuba if he had

friends, but you're not sure about that second

one.

Is that accurate?

Yes.

Now, after this first basic explanation, what if anythir

did he say or do?

Well, I don't remember exäctly.

He show all the

paper that he had, when he gave me the application

when he came back,

1..

Okay.

Wait a minute. Just the first visit.

Is there anything else about the first visit?

OI,

---

## Page 27

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 23.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

did he leave at that time and if he left, why

did he leave?

To have photographs of himself.

Okay.

So your memory is that on the first occa-

sion you also explained to him that he needed photo-

graphs and he left shortly thereafter to obtain

them.

Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh,

he said that he was a friend of the Cuban

Revolu-

tion, and when he showed me all the scrap

paper that he has.

All right. You don't remember if that was on the

first or the second occasion.

Correct?

Yeah, I don't remember.

Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs,

and he did return?

Yes.

Did he return with the photographs?

With four photographs.

Four of them.

i

Yeah.

• ..

were they all the same? Io the best of your memory,

was he wearing the same kind of clothes that he

was wearing

that day in the photographs?

Yes.

---

## Page 28

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 24.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

So, from all

the circumstances, did it appear

to you that he just went somewhere locally and

had the pictures made?

Yeah. I think that I already explained (to) him

where he could take the photographs

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

You told him some locations in town where he

could go? Were there some right in the neigh-

borhood of the Consulate there?

That I don't remember.

All right. But at any rate you knew of some

place at the time, mentioned one or two places

to him?

Yes.

Correct?.. Did you look at the photos when he

brought them back, careful about to be sure that it

was the same man who was standing in front of

YOu?

Yes.

And what did you do at that time?

I filled out application."

You personally typed it, and did you type it in

duplicate or triplicate or just one copy?

Duplicate.

And was the second copy a carbon?

---

## Page 29

Silvia Tirado Interview

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Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Carbon?

Did you have it twice of did you type one and

make two copies?

Only one.

And made two?

Yes.

And what did you do with the photographs?

Stapled them.

Stapled them?

Yes.

On top of the application.

Yes.

The application has a place on it for a date, is

that correct?

Yes.

Did you type in the date that was in fact that

day?

Yes.

Let's just talk hypothetically for a moment. Is

there any chance that he was at the Consulate on

more than one day?

No. I read yesterday, an article

in the Reader's

Digest, and they say he was at the consulate on

three occasions.

He was in Friday, Saturday, and

Monday. . .That's not true, that's false.

---

## Page 30

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 26.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

All right. Let's try a different hypothetical.

If the one in the Reader's Digest is definitely

wrong, is it possible that he first came on like

a Thursday, and then came back on a Friday?

No, because I am positively sure about it. That

he came in the same day.

Let me ask you then something about just the pro-

cedures for the Consulate at the time.

Would it have been consistent with your normal

procedures for you to have typed the application

on his first visit, even though he didn't have a

photograph to put on it?

No.

In other words, before you started the process of

typing it, you were sure you had everything you

needed to make it complete.

Yes.

Did he tell you where he was staying at the time?

NO.

Did you recall any problem with him not knowing

any address, where he was staying in Mexico City?

No, because he say that hë has no time to wait,

he was in a hotel and uh, I didn't

ask the address,

in Mexico City because I mean didn't care.

You didn't have a need to know that?

---

## Page 31

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 27.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

No.

Do you recall any problem coming up where he

needed to know it? For any other reason?

Me to know his address?

No, for him to know. Did he have any problem,

did he have any need to know it himself? Do

you remember anything along those lines? TIRADO: No.

Going back to the second visit, is it your memory

that you typed the application in duplicate,

you stapled the pictures at the top of each copy,

is. that correct?

Yes.

Then what did you do with the application?

Well, I used to put it in a file, and uh, I used

to keep one copy, another to send, the original,

we used to send to Cuba. And I think I have another file

Was he required to sign the application?

He signed it, yes.

Did he sign one of both of them?

I think both, it has to be.

Was there any requirement in the Consulate that he

do it in any particular person's presence? Anyone

have to watch him while he signed it?

I don't know, I mean I just don't remember.

---

## Page 32

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 28.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

As a hypothetical, did

Azcue

have to watch peo-

ple sign the applications?

No.

He was in his office.

So you could handle that all by yourself.

Yes.

Did he sign it in your presence?

Yes.

Did anything else occur on the second visit, any

other conversation, or any

other event?

No, but I told you, it's uh, he said that he was

a friend of the Cuban Revolution. He show me

letters to the Communist Party, the American Com-

munist Party, his labor card, and uh, he's work-

ing in Russia, I don't remember exactly, but he

said on his application, his license number. •

Marriage license?

(Spoke in Spanish.) Se dice serup los recortes del

Okay, we had to pause for a second to turn the

periodice

tapes over. As I recall, you were explaining the

kinds of things he brought with him.

Yes, it was his labor card, from, Russia, his uh,

marriage pact, yes, that he was married with a

Russian, and uh, a clipping that he was with two

policemen taking him by his arms, that he was ins

meeting to support Cuba. And a card saying that

he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba in New

---

## Page 33

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

29.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Orleans. And

Do you recall what was said or what occurred that

caused him to produce all of these documents

about his having a Russian wife and his

Fair

Play Eor Cuba activity?

Just a minute. (Spanish--what means recall?)

Recordar.

He showed me all of these papers to demonstrate

that he was a friend of the revolution.

But did you say anything to him or did anyone

else say anything to him that made him feel he

needed to produce this kind of documentation.

No, I don't think so. What I said is that when he

said he was a member of the Party, of the Commu-

nist Party, the American, I said why don't they

arrange, the Party, your Party with the Cuban

Party, and he said that he didn't have time to do

it.

Did you ask him why he didn't just have the Commu-

nist Party arrange his trip to Cuba?

Yes.

The Cuban Communist Party? He just said he didn't

have time?

Yes. Because there was a manner to do it. I

mean, we get, for instance, the visa directly

---

## Page 34

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 30.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

from Cuba and saying give the visa to this peo-

ple that's coming and somebody say oh, yes, you

have your visa here.

Do you recall anything else happening on the se-

cond occasion? Or have you related all that's

in

your mind on that?

No.

It was strange.

I mean because if you are

a Communist and you're coming from a country

where the Communist Party is not very well

seen,

and in Mexico City that the Communist Party was

not legal

at that moment -- crossing

the border with all of his paper, it was not

logical. I mean, if you're really Communist,

you go with anything, I mean just nothing, just

your passport, that's all. And that was some-

thing that I didn't like it but. ..

So, you were a little suspicious

of the amount

of documentation he brought?

Yeah.

Did you say anything to him about that?

Perhaps I told him, what are you doing with all

of this? And he said to prove I'm a friend of yours

Did you discuss your suspicions with anyone else?

With the Consul.

With Azcue?

---

## Page 35

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 31.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Yes.

Do you remember when that discussion occurred?

It was afterwards.

Was that after his second visit as you recall?

It was during his third visit.

During his third visit. All right.

Let's back up again for just a moment.

What time of day as best as you recall did he

come to the Consulate the first time?

Perhaps it was eleven o'clock or something like

that, ten thirty.

And the second time?

About twelve, or eleven, no, about one o'clock.

Okay. The first one was roughly late morning,

and the second one was early afternoon.

Yes.

And then, why did he leave the second time?

Io get his Russian visa.

Would it have been the standard procedure in the

Cuban Consulate, to take the application, have

him sign it, and have it ready to go in the file

if the request was an in-transit, for an

in-transit visa, even though he did not have the

visa from the third country. Or from another

country?

Uh, huh.

---

## Page 36

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 32:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

All right.

Yes, I did send it to Cuba.

All right. Okay.

So, then you sent him, in

effect, to the Russian Embassy. And it was at

that point after he left that you spoke to.

NO.

No, you didn't speak to the Consulate at all yet.

NO.

TIRADO:

NO

Had there been any problem at all yet?

So far, it's like any normal visa application.

Yes.

Would it have been consistent with the procedures

in the Consulate for you to have allowed him to

take one or both of the applications typed up

outside the Consulate?

I don't remember very well if uh, there were only

two copies. I mean, one original and one copy,

but uh, it could have happened, but I don't remember

Okay. To the best of your memory then, the per-

son who made the application was not permitted

to

have a copy.

I don't know. I don't remember.

Okay. You're not sure. But your"

tentative me-

mory is that would not have occurred.

---

## Page 37

Silvia

Tirado Interview

Page

33.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

NO.

Is that correct?

Yes.

would you have ever allowed a person to take all

of the applications outside and attach the photos or

sign them themselves?

Yes, because you may come, ask for the application

and you may keep it.

You, on occasion, would allow someone just to have

a blank copy. It that correct?

Yes. But he was different because he did not

speak in Spanish so I have to fill it.

I see. If he would have spoken Spanish or pro-

fessed to having someone with him who did speak "

Spanish, you might have allowed him to take the

applications and fill them out.

Perhaps.

At least on other occasions. you have done that,

with other people.

That's something that I really don't remember.

There, at least, there was no requirement that you

type it there in the office, as

Jong as it got

filled out.

I think I have to type it. I have to type it

because I have to make some observations, always.

Down at the bottom?

Yes.

---

## Page 38

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 34

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

And I think that if you fill it in in hand-

writing, I have to type it, for, to send it

to Cuba.

so, at most, you would allow someone to fill it

out and bring it in so you could type it?

Yes.

If that procedure was employed, allowing someone

else to fill it out, would you still be required

to check the photograph to be sure it was accurate?

Yes.

Would you still require the person to sign it

in your presence?

yes.

Just so we can keep our documents straight, let's

just mark as Exhibit Number 1 the diagram you

drew earlier. And we will mark now on the back

a photograph and we'll ask you some questions

about it.

we'Il mark it as Exhibit Number 2.

This is a photograph of what would appear to be

. a visa application. Does it appear to be basically

the type of visa application that we have been

speaking about?

Yes. The numbers, I think they're mine.

The numbers in the upper right-hand corner which

are hand-written?

I think so.

---

## Page 39

Silvia

- Tirado Interview

Page

3.5.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

• Cornwell:

Those appear to you to be in your handwriting.

Yeah, because when I file I write in the number,

the following number?

Okay. And on the very bottom of the application,

where it says "para uso de la mision" that

means it's filled in by someone associated with

the Cuban Government. Is that correct. Or the

Consulate?

Yes.

Who,

according to the usual procedure, filled

out that portion.

Me .

The other day when we talked to you informally,

you

read through the words in that section.

Is

that correct?

Yes.. I remember.

And you memory is that you in fact typed that

section on this application.

Yes. I used to do this with all the applications.

And under that, there is a signature.

Yes.

Are you able to tell whose signature that is?

No, I was thinking it was Mirabal, but no-- I

couldn't sign any papers.

Okay. So it was definetly not your signature?

No.

Do you know whether, according to normal procedure,

---

## Page 40

spiritsao?

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

36.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

any particular person routinely placed his

name at that location?

No, only the Consulate. People in the Consulate.

What would be the purpose of a signature in the

lower right-hand corner?

I don't know, perhaps to check that it was right

as it was written.

Did you ever see the Consulate or any other

employee routinely sign the applications at

the location?

I don't remember, but what I used to do was

put the originals in one packet and that was

with a letter to the Minister, de Relaciones

exterister (spanish), How do you say that?

(Lopez - Minister of Foreign Relations), and I

used to give to the consul so he sign the papers

and send it to Cuba.

Okay. One copy stayed in the Consulate and one

was mailed to Cuba, to the Minister of Foreign

Relations.

Yes.

Is it possible then that the signature in the

lower right-hand corner is someone in Cuba?

Perhaps that one that get it.

That receives it in Cuba. All right. the stamp,

---

## Page 41

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

37.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

which appears slightly over the name, the hand-

written name, Lee H. Oswald, when did that get

placed on the application if you know?

Perhaps in the moment that he sign?

Was that part of the normal procedure? Did you

have a stamp as you recall to do that?

Yes.

And was that a means of authenticating the sig-

nature, that you would stamp on top of it like

that?

I think so. Because let me see..

This was signed by Cuba, I think, because this

was October 10. This was the answer, perhaps.

So there's a date you just pointed to, around

the middle of the application reading 10-OCT. 1963

and you are assuming, I take it, that that was

the date placed on the document in Cuba?

Perhaps but I don't know.

I don't know the date of when we send the applica-

tion.

Cornwell: Or it was placed on there when you mailed it?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell:

Do you know which?

Tirado:

I don't know.

Cornwell:

You don't remember which? Could it have been the

date upon which the application was received

---

## Page 42

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 38.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

in the Consulate here in Mexico City?

In return.

In return? Back from Cuba? Is that what you

mean?

Perhaps. I don't know that.

Could it have been the date you received it.

from Oswald?

No, because it was the same date.

Okay.

The only date on here of receipt from

Oswald was the one near the top, the second line,

which reads: 27 Sep. 1963.

Yes.

So I guess the best we can do is say that you don't

have a distinct recollection of how the l0th of

October date would have gotten placed on here. Correct?

Yeah.

How long normally would it have taken between the

receipt of an application and the date that it

would have been mailed to Cuba?

Well, it depends on the flight. We had, I don't

remember in that time, if we were three flights

from Cuba to Mexico and from Mexico to Cuba and

it depends on the work that we have to do, if we

have a lot of work we wouldn't have sent it immediately

or,--valise diplomatica, How do you say it?

Cornwell:

Diplomatic pouch.

---

## Page 43

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

39.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Would there have been some usual amount of time?

How much could it vary?

The flights were Monday, Wednesday and Friday,

I think. And uh, well, we send a bunch if, I

think, I don't know, when what day in the week

was the 27th?

Perhaps if it was Wednesday, we

would send next Friday, or next Monday. Of...

I have another photograph of just the upper left-

hand corner of the same document, which we'll

mark as Exhibit 3 on the back, and ask you if,

to the best of your recollection, that is a photo-

graph of the man whom you saw on or about the 27th

of September?

Yes.

I don't understand. A moment ago, did you say that

there was a normal time of the week that mailings

to Cuba occurred?

-.

Would you please repeat the question?

Was there a usual day, did the mailings to Cuba

usually occur on one given day of the week?

Xes, I don't remember exactly, but i think it was

on Friday, perhaps, that we make, we send applica-

tions. Yeah, it was one day to sénd all the appli-

cations.

All right.

so, if we were to tell you the 27th of

---

## Page 44

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 40.

Tirado :

Cornwell:

Tirado:

•Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

• Cornwell:

Tirado:

September was a Friday, then, the usual routine

would have been either for you to have mailed this

application on the very day that you received it,

or to have to wait until at least the next Friday.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Now. You have told us that after the second visit

he went apparently to attempt to obtain a visa

from the Soveit Embassy.

Yes.

When do you recall him returning?

He came in the afternoon.

About what time?

Five or six.

And that would have been, according to what you

told us earlier, not normal visiting

hours?

Is that correct?

Yes.

How were you able to speak to him on this occasion?

Because when somebody came to the doorman and was

speaking in another language that wasn't Spanish,

he used to call me and say somebody's here that

doesn't speak Spanish, someone sent me to you, so

he takes the people to the Consulate.

And the doorman came and got you.

Yes.

Did you go outside to the main gate?

NO.

---

## Page 45

Sylvia Tirado Interview

Page 41.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

What happened?

Somebody took them to the consulate.

Okay. You said the main gate. Was that the area

that, on Exhibit One, you marked as being the

door to your office, or some other area?

He was closed. In the afternoon he was closed.

But perhaps he came. . .

The door on Area One was locked up.

Okay?

Yes. And then he was open.

Over near Number Seven, is that correct?

Where they let the cars in?

Yes.

There was a door there too?

Yes.

It was the garage and another door.

And the doorman from that area brought him to your

office?

Yes.

What occurred on that occasion?

What?

What happened on that occasion?

Well, he came in and he said that, he already have

his Russian visa and uh, he want to get his Cuban

visa. And I said that that was not possible be-

cause he has to be first sent to Cuba and then

---

## Page 46

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 42.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

wait for the answer, no, it was necessary

that he has to have first a Socialist visa, the

Russian visa. And, uh, . . .

Did he show you his passport with a visa

in it?

From the Russian Embassy?

No, No.. I dont' remember exactly but what I remem-

ber is he says that he already has his Russian visa

and I said I don't see it and well, I don't remem-

ber exactly what we discussed in that moment. But,

he was very stubborn. So, I say, well, I'm going

to call to the

Russian Consul, so I called the

Russian Consul and I said hey, listen, here's a

man that, he say that he already got his Russian

visa. And he said, yes, I remember it. He came

to us for visa but uh, the answer will be in three

or four months, that was the usual time.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

So as you recall, then, the person at the Russian

Embassy said in effect, no, he doesn't have it yet,

he's only applied for it. Is that right?

Yes.

Okay. Go ahead.

And uh, and I told him what the Russian Consulate

says and then, he was angry. He get angry. And

he insisted that he was a friend of the Cuban Re-

---

## Page 47

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

43.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

volution; that he has already been in jail for

the Cuban Revolution, that uh, oh, that he

wanted that visa and that he couldn't wait for

so long time because uh, his Mexican visa was

finished in three days. So he was insistent and uh,

I didn't have time and well, I couldn't make him

understand that. So, I went to the Consul's

office and I explained to him, and would you please

come and talk with him? Azcue came, Mirabal I

think he didn't speak English, so Azcue came and

told him those things, all the requirements that he

needs to fly to Cuba, and he was really angry. He

was red and he was almost crying and uh, he was

insisting and insisting so Azcue told him to go away

because if he didn't go away at that moment he was

going to kick him, or something like that. So,

Azcue went to the door, he opened the door and

told Oswald to go away.

....

Okay.

So he went to the door which was in the

area we marked 'one,' which was the Consulate

Office?

Yes... Remember, I was feeling pity for him.

because he looked desparate.

He looked desparate?

Yes.

---

## Page 48

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 44.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

so, you felt kind of sorry for him?

Yes.

At any time during these three contacts, did he

indicate to you that he could speak or understand

Spanish?

NO.

During this period was your normal work week, did

it include Saturdays?

Yes.

Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on

Friday, he also came back the following day on

Saturday morning?

No.

How can you be sure of that?

Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy

to remember, because not all the Americans that

came there were married with a Russian woman, they

have liveld) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to

fight with those people because if you, they came

for going to Cuba, so apparently they were friends,

no? So we were nice to them with this man we fight,

I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want

to have anything to do with him.

Okay. I understand that but I don't understand

how that really answers the question. In other

---

## Page 49

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

45.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

words, the question is, what is it about the

events that makes you sure that he did not come

back on Saturday, and have another conversation

with you?

Because I remember the fight.

So if he (come)

back, I would have remembered.

Did Azcue work on Saturdays?

Yes, we used to work in the office, but not for

the public.

Was there a guard, was there a guard out here at

the corner near number seven on your diagram on

Saturdays?

Excuse me?

Was there a doorman out near the area that you

marked as number seven, on the diagram?

Yes, but on Saturday he never let people...

Never let people in.

No.

Not even if they came up to the doorman and didn't

speak Spanish? And were very insistent?

No, because they could answer or'

something.

They

could ask me for instance, no? by the inter-phone.

They could do that on a Friday, though.

---

## Page 50

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 46..

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

But what I remember is that Oswald has my tele-

phone number and my name and perhaps he show to

the doorman (Spanish).

When did you give him the telephone number and

name?

In the second visit, perhaps.

Okay.

I used to do that to all the people, so they don't

have to come and to bother me. So I

used to give

the telephone number and my name and say "give me

a call next week to see if your visa arrived."

Well. Are you saying that based on your memory

the guard was

allowed to bring people in during

the five till eight o'clock at night uh, sessions

during the week but not on Saturdays?

No.

Is that correct?

Yes.

...

Do you have a distinct recollection with respect

to telephone calls to the Russian Consulate, was

it just one call or was it more

than

one call?

Only one.

Just one.

The .

•I believe I asked you this, but just to

be sure, although the application was typed with

---

## Page 51

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 47.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

a carbon to make two copies

with one typing,

did he have to sign both independently? Or did

you allow them to use a carbon to sign the paper?

No, no.

It was the original.

TwO

original signatures. All right.

•Yes.

Was anything said that you recall at this time

which looking back on it indicated the possibility,

even on that date, Oswald had on his mind some

intension of killing the President of the United

States?

No, I don't think so.

Let me read something to you, and ask you if it ät

all refreshes your memory of if your have a memory

of a conversation similar to this?

I don't believe I read this to you before, when

we talked the other day, or did I? Did I read

an excerpt from Daniel Schorr's book to you?

No, you told me.

Okay. I'll read it to you then at this time.

It's an excerpt from a book called clearing the

Air, written by Daniel schort, published in the

United States in 1977. And page 177 reads as

follows:

"In an interview in July 1967 with a

British journalist, Comer Clark, Castro

---

## Page 52

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

48.

(meaning Fidel Castro) said that Oswald

had come to the Cuban Consulate twice,

each time for about fifteen minutes.

The

first time, I was told, he wanted to work

He was asked to explain but he

wouldn't, he wouldn't go into details.

The

second time he said he wanted to free Cuba

from American imperialism.

Then he said

something

like 'Someone ought to shoot

Then Oswald said,

and this is

exactly how it was reported to

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Do you recall any conversation like that in

either what was said to you by Oswald or that

was said by Oswald to Azcue or anyone else that

you might have overheard?

No, I don't remember..

Did any part of that conversation occur?

No, because I don't remember that he says he was

said

to go to work in Cuba because he only that he

wanted to go in-transit. That's what I remember.

What do you think, well, first let me ask you,

do you think thät conversation could have occurred

and you just forgot it? In other words, is that

the kind of conversation which, if it occurred,

you would definitely remember it?

Yes.

Because in the fight with Azcue there was

shouting and crying and things like that. I could

miss something, but not, because even if would

say so, I mean, I could have heard, no, I mean

---

## Page 53

Silvia

Tirado Interview

Page

49 :

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

if you kill President you're not going to

change the whole system.

You see, that's why I give you answer,

even Azcue. I mean that's not the, I don't think

so, that he had that conversation with anyone.

He was arguing...

Do you remember any part of the conversation

indicating that Oswald blaming the United States

or President Kennedy for his inability to get

to Cuba?

I don't remember but that could be possible.

In other words, if he's frustrated and he comes

to the Cuban Consulate, he might feel animosity

or anger towards various people. He might be

angry at you, or Azcue, or at the Cuban Govern-

ment or at the Russian Government or perhaps the

United States Government, depending on how the

conversation went. What do you recall about that?

Who was he angry at

when told he couldn't go to

Cuba

He was angry at us. That's why I called Azcue•

Because he was not a strong man but anyway, I

didn't like to fight with him. He was very angry

and he was blaming me and Azcue: because he thought

it was in our hands to give the visa immediately,

and he couldn't understand that the visa has to

---

## Page 54

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page, 50.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

"Cornwell:

Tirado:

come from Cuba.

You mentioned earlier that you had discussed

with Azcue on this, as I understood this, during

the third visit with Oswald, the suspicion that

you had about the documents. Is that accurate

or did I misunderstand?

No, it was the third time when I told Azcue that

there was a man that bother me, that when I told

him about. this man, I mean because it was normal, I

used to, that was my job, to attend

people who

come in so I didn't have to bother the Consul

for every man who came, because there was a lot

crazy men from the United States that they wanted

to go to Cuba.

Okay.

So, from what I understand then, when you

went in to Azcue, to bother him, since you normally

didn't do that sort of thing, you gave him a sort

of background resume of your dealings with Oswald.

Is that correct?

Yes.

And was it at that point that you told him of your

suspicion about the documents?

I think so.

What was his reaction? Azcue's?

He was worrying. When he went to my office.

---

## Page 55

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

51.

Leap:

Tirado:

Leap:

Tirado:

Leap:

he was

very tranguil, he was very polite, he

was explaining things, very polite.. And

uh,

he was

starting to get angry when he saw that he

was

stubborn man, that he didn't want to under-

stand, and he said uh, I remember now,

he said

'you're not a friend of the Cuban Revolution, be-

cause if you are a friend, you have to understand

that we have to take care, to be very careful

with the people that are going to Cuba, and if

you don't understand this, you are not friend of

the Cuban Revolution.' And he was shouting and,

I don't remember how long was this conversation,.

but uh, they got really angry, both.

May I call you Silvia?

Yesany time during your conversation with the

Consul, did you discuss the possibility that

Oswald was a penetration agent?, Intelligence

agent for a. foreign power? Did you discuss that

possibility?

No. I don't think so because we didn't have

time. Because this man was in my office and

I was in Azoue's office so I couldn't leave him

many times alone.

Did you ever have conversations with Ascue out-

side of Oswald's

presence relative to the issue?

---

## Page 56

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

52.

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Leap:

Tirado:

Leap:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Repeat the question please.

Did you ever have a conversation with Azcue

when Oswald was not in the office about the pos-

sibility that he was an intelligence agent for

some country?

No, no. I don't think so. We only thought that he

was

la crazy man, an adventurer, or something like

that.

Did it ever enter your mind that he was a pene-

tration agent?

Perhaps. Perhaps, because it happened, it hap-

pened sometimes that somebody came and say

this

is a policeman or something like that.

That's all the questions that I have.

The only thing that I can say, it was that it was

strange, travelling with all of his documents

just to prove one thing.

Do you think now, looking back on what happened

then, that he may have been an intelligence agent?

Perhaps.

Did anything else ever come to. your

attention?

i

That caused that suspicion? Other than just his

presentation of the documentation? Anything else

ever happen?

With him? No, no. The only thing that was strange :

is that if you belong to the Communist Party,

---

## Page 57

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 53:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

any party. Your French, but French could get Cuban Visa

but Mexico, for instance, if you're

Mexican

and you're a member of the party, of the Commu-

nist Party, you don't have to go and ask for

application visa because the party writes to the

Cuban Communist Party, and they arrange every-

thing. That was the strange thing. There's no

need.. At first, he said that he was a Communist.

That was

strange. Because it would be really

easy for him to get the visa through the commu-

nist Party.

At any point in the conversations that you have

told us about, did Oswald say anything indicating

that he really wanted to stay in Cuba?

No.

He just wanted to go and visit and saw

what was the Revolution.

Okay. That's sort of what I meant. In other words,

he did indicate that he didn't just want to pass

through, that he wanted to spend some time there.

Is that correct?

Yes.

What do you recall about that part

of the conver-

sations?

I told him that he get to Cuba, for instance,

at two o'clock, and there was a plane going to

---

## Page 58

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 54.

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Russia at five o'clock, he has to stay in the

airport, in the Cuban airport. That he couldn't

go out.

Why didn't you tell him that?

Because he was

saying that he wanted to go to

Cuba to visit and to see. what the revolution

had made.

Did you ever see him again, after the argument

with Azcue?

No.

Did you ever talk to him again?

No.

Not in person nor by telephone.

No, he never call.

He could have called when I wasn't there, but I

used to get the message, if somebody answer, I

used to get a message.

Did anyone else overhear any of the conversations

you have described? Other than the one time in

which Azcue was involved?

Yes. Could be that people from the Commercial

Office, could be Mirabal.

Was there anyone else physically present in the

Consulate's Office during those conversations as

you can recall?

---

## Page 59

Silvia Tirado Interview.

Page

55.

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

I can't remember. The only thing that I remem-

ber is that it was only Mirabal.

And did Mirabal

come out in the reception

area during the conversations as you recall?

No, I think he stay

• in his office.

But he could have overheard it at the time.

Yes, everybody who was passing through, even in

the streets, they were shouting, really!

were the windows up as I guess they might have

been at that time of year?

(Didn't understand.)

The windows would have been up? The windows

tO

the Consulate Office would have been open?

What? I.

In other words, you're saying people on the street

might have overheard it?

Yes, yes. If you were here and there was always a polic:

here, they could have heard the shouting, the crying.

(Lots of noise in background, unintelligible.)

---

## Page 60

KENNEDY

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

TAPE 2

Name

Address

Silvia Tirado (Duran)

Date June 6, 1978 Time

Place

Interview:

Cornwell: You told us previously when we discussed informally

with you that you

were sympathetic towards the Cuban

Revolution during the early 1960's--

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Did you ever overhear any conversation either in the

Consulate or among any of the people you may have as-

sociated with concerning the possibility of killing

the President?

Tirado: No, because I think the people I used to know during

that time, they think like me, and I think the death

of a man doesn't make anything good, I mean, you

have to change the structures, I mean, it's just

like a building, no? The President: is like, I mean,

for instance, a roof--not the top, but if you take

the top, the building still stands.. You have to de-

stroy the whole building, not one man. If you kill

the man, you make a hero. So, is no good.

Cornwell: What were your own feelings towards President Kennedy?

Interviewer Signature

Typed Signature

Gary Cornwell

'Date transcribed 6-26-78

By :

br

FOrm #4-A

---

## Page 61

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 2.

Tirado:

Well, I like him. I mean, he was very nice,

he was

very intelligent. And I think of the relations with

Mexico, as I remember now, they were very good in

the commercial area, the cultural area. He came to

Mexico and he was very acclamation. They loved him.

They liked him very much.

Cornwell: And, what you're saying is, you're describing what

you understood to be the basic reaction of the Mexi-

can people? Is that correct?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Was that feeling the same even among the part of

the Mexican people who were sympathetic towards the

Cuban Rebblution?

Tirado:

Uh, translate, please,

Ed. I want to be sure of

the question.

Lopez:

Would you repeat the question, please?

Cornwell: Was the feeling that you just described as being

that of the Mexican people?

Lopez:

(Translated question.)

Tirado:

In general.

Cornwell: The same with respect to that part of the Mexican

people like yourself who were sympathetic to the

Cuban Revolution?

Lopez:

Tirado:

(Translated.)

Well, yes, more or less. Because I mean, if you're uh,

how can I explain this, uh, if you're a President

---

## Page 62

Silvia

Tirado Interview

Page 3.

of a country that is against uh, against Latin

America, undeveloped countries, you don't love

them, of course, but you may see that is different,

that he has been a good President, that he was, I

think he was ingenious with his Alliance for Progress,

that he tried to have more friends, not. like Dulles

who said we don't have friends, we have interests,

things like that. Do you know that phrase?

Cornwell: One more time.

Lopez:

Tirado:

(Speaks to Tirado in Spanish.) Dulles.

He said once the United States has no friends, they

have interests. (Speaks in Spanish.) And Kennedy

tried to destroy that phrase, saying we want to have

friends. And he was changing the politics of Latin

America, Kennedy.

Cornwell: So, you're saying that because of President Kennedy's

policies towards Latin America, that even the part

of the Mexican people who were sympathetic to the

-.

Cuban Revolution, they also very much liked President

Kennedy?

Tirado: I think so. Now, I'm not sure, I mean I--

Cornwell: At least--

Tirado: Yeah, but you make difference with one President and

another.

Cornwell: I understood your answer to my question a moment

ago but let me ask it one more time, nevertheless.

---

## Page 63

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 4.

I asked you if at any time during the early. 1960's

you had overheard any conversations among people

who were in favor of the Cuban Revolution to the

effect that they would consider killing the Presi-

dent, and you answered with a statement on the

logic of the situation, that you don't change the

system by changing the President. Nevertheless, let

me ask you again, more pointedly. Did you, never-

theless, ever overhear any such conversations?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Did you ever overhear them within the Cuban Consulate

or outside it?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: I'm sorry, go ahead.

Tirado: No, but I'm Mexican and I was in Mexico and I was

working there and you have to see that uh, even though

the cuban people know I was a friend, they would not

say things like that in front of me, of course, no?

Cornwell: When the news came over the television and in the news-

papers that President Kennedy had been killed, and

then you heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald, and saw

the picture, I guess you immediately

reflected back

on your contact, correct?

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: At that time, did anything come into your mind

---

## Page 64

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 5.

in connection with those contacts that you could

have read as foreknowledge, in other words, did

it totally surprise

you that that was the alleged

assassin, or was there anything about your contact

with him which

adm

it understandable?

Tirado:

No. No, even now. I don't think that he would

have done it.

Cornwell: You still don't think that he killed him?

Tirado: No, because I think that he was a weak man. I saw

that he could get angry, but uh, for me, he was not

a man thatcould kill the President, because

even

when I saw him on television and he said all the

time, "I'm innocent" and if I kill someone very im-

portant, I would be proud. I mean, because even if

I'm with police I know that I'm going to be killed

or die or something like that, I'd say, "Yes, I

killed the President" and I don't think so.

Cornwell: So based on all of your contacts with him, you do

not think that he killed the President?

Tirado: I don't think so.

cornwell: Iet me ask you just some miscellaneous questions

about the nature of your contact with him. Was

there ever any conversations or indications about

money problems that he had? Was that ever the sub-

---

## Page 65

Silvia Tirado

Interview

Page 6.

ject of a conversation?

Tirado:

No. The thing that I remember only that he was

very in a hurry because his visa was finished and

I think he said, he mentioned that he only had

three days to stay here in Mexico City.

Cornwell: Did he ever indicate that he hoped the Cuban Govern-

ment would finance his trip?

Tirado: I don't think so.

Cornwell: Had you ever done that before?

Had the Consulate

ever done that sort of thing?

Tirado: No, no.

We used to do that but they were visitors

and we had instructions from Cuba, from the Cuban

Government.

Cornwell: Only visitors from Cuba, is that what you mean?

Tirado:

No, no.

For instance, your--the Cuban Revolutionary

Anniversary, they invite people, they do have every?

thing paid.

Cornwell: In other words, it was persons that had been invited

to go to Cuba by the Cuban Government?

Tirado: Yes, yes.

Cornwell: Well, even though, then you would not, or the cuban

Government would not have financed

I this

trip, did

he ask for such assistance?

Tirado:

At the time that I was working there, it never hap-

pens.

• Cornwell: Specifically Oswald.

---

## Page 66

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 7.

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: Did he ask for monêtary assistance?

Tirado: I don't remember.

I don't think so.

But I don't

remember.

Cornwell: Did he ever say anything or did you ever observe

anything to indicate that he had travelling compan-.

ions in Mexico City?

Tirado: No, he didn't mention it.

Cornwell: Did he ever say anything or do anything that indi-

cated that he knew other people in Mexico City?

Tirado: I don't know. I don't remember.

Cornwell: To the best of your knowledge he knew no one, is

that correct?

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: Do you know when he left Mexico City?

Tirado: NO.

Cornwell: By what form of transportation?

Tirado: NO.

....

Cornwell: Did anyone ever call or come by the Consulate on

his behalf?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: Did they ever deliver anything. to the consulate for

him?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: There have, let me ask you this--Has .any allegation

ever been brought to your attention that you met

---

## Page 67

Silvia Tirado

Interview

Page 8.

with Oswald outside of the Consulate?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: On--let me show you two books, one of which is

labeled photo ident book and has roughly three inch

by five inch pictures in it and the other one which

is labeled JFK Document 7549 and has smaller pic-

• tures in it, and I'll turn the recorder off for a

second and give you a few minutes to look through

them and ask

us, and I will ask you if you recognize

any of the people in these photos.

Recorder turned off.

Cornwell: Okay.

We've turned the tape recorder back on and

you've had five minutes, maybe ten, I don't know,

to look through the two books. In the first book,

you only picked out photograph--

-.

Tirado: This looks like Fidel.

But not exactly.

Cornwell: Which one: Number 12?

Tirado: Yeah.

Cornwell: Who does that look like?

Tirado: Fidel but not exactly.

Cornwell: All right. Just a little.

Tirado: Yeah.

---

## Page 68

Silvia

Tirado Interview

Page

9.

Cornwell: Okay. And you also I believe pointed to Number 57

when you went through

the book.

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: And who do you think that is?

Tirado:

Oswald.

Cornwell: Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, many of the pictures in

the book are not that clear, of course. When you

saw him the first time in the book, you indicated

that that looked like him except that as you recalled

him, he had either blue of green eyes and blond

hair. Correct?

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: When you say blond hair, what color is that? Is it

very light?

Tirado:

Light.

Cornwell: Let's see if we can find an example. Looking in the

second book--that's all you found in the first book,

correct?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: All right. Looking in the second book, uh, take as

- an example, Number 266 04 268., would that be basically

what you recall to be the color of his hair, blond?

Tirado: Yes. Here it looks very, very light, not that light.

Cornwell: Okay. That would be what you describe as blond but

your memory is that it was close but not quite as

---

## Page 69

Silvia Tirado

Interview

Page

10.

light as that?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Okay, but the tape recorder was back away from us so

- just to make sure we got that answer, you picked out

in the first book photograph #57. You stated that

it looked like the way you recalled the man who came

to the Consulate except that he had blue or green

eyes and blond hair. And then we were trying to

determine what shade you recall the blond hair being,

and I asked you--all these are black and white--if

it would be similar to photos #266 and #268 in the

book 7549? And you said in those pictures that it

looks very light and that it would not have been

that light, quite that light to your memory. Is

that right?

Tirado:

Yes.

(Long break.)

cornwell: I don't know how, working with black and white photos,

we can do much better than that? But--

Tirado: A little lighter than your eyebrows.

Cornwell: A little lighter than my eyebrows? There's another

photo...In the second book, number 2ó or 27. you

also pointed to those photos when you went through

the book. Would the color of that hair approximate

the way you remember it?

---

## Page 70

Silvia Tirado

Page

9.

Interview

Cornwell: Okay. And you also I believe pointed to Number 57

when you went through the book.

Tirado:

yes.

Cornwell: And who do you think that is?

Tirado:

Oswald.

Cornwell: Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, many of the pictures in

the book are not that clear, of course. When you

saw him the first time in the book, you indicated

that that looked like him except that as you recalled

him, he had either blue or green eyes and blond

hair. Correct?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: When you say blond hair, what color is that? Is it

very light?

Tirado: Light.

Cornwell: Let's see if we can find an example. Looking in the

second book--that's all you found in

the first book,

correct?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: All right. Looking in the second book, uh, take as

an example, Number 266 04 268e would that be basically

what you recall to be the color of his hair, blond?

Tirado:

Yes.

Here it looks very, very light, not that light.

Cornwell: Okay.

That would be what you describe as blond but

your memory is that it was close but not quite as

---

## Page 71

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

10.

Tirado:

light as that?

Yes.

Cornwell: Okay, but the tape recorder was back away from us so

just to make sure we got that answer, you picked out

in the first book photograph #57. You stated that

it looked like the way you recalled the man who came

to the Consulate except that he had blue or green

eyes and blond hair. And then we were trying to

determine what shade you recall the blond hair being,

and I asked you--all these are black and white--if

it would be similar to photos #266 and #268 in the

book 7549? And you

said in those pictures that it

looks very light and that it would not have been

that light, quite that light to your memory. Is

that right?

Tirado:

Yes.

(Long break.)

Cornwell: I don't know how, working with black and white photos,

we can do much better than that? But--

'Tirado: A little lighter than your eyebrows.

Cornwell: A little lighter than my eyebrows? There's another

photo:.. In the second book, number 26 or 27. You

also pointed to those photos when you went through

the book. Would the color of that hair approximate

the way you remember it?

---

## Page 72

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 11.

Tirado:

No, because he had very light, almost white:

Cornwell: Okay, again, it would be not as light as that?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: All right. Then going to the second book, you

pointed to photograph

#4, when you looked

at the

book the first time.

What is your memory about

that?

Tirado:

He reminds me of Mirabal, he reminds me but not

exactly.

Cornwell: All right.

He looks a little like Mirabal?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: If I

skip a photograph you remember looking at, let

me know, but I jotted down some notes as you came

to

'em when you looked at the book. You next pointed

to number 26 and 27. Does that appear to you to be

the same man?

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: And who was that?

Tirado:

Ernesto Lefel. He used to work with my husband.

Cornwell: Ernesto Lefel And what's the nature of the associa-

tion between he and your husband?

Tirado:

He was working with him.

Cornwell: In the architectural business?

Tirado:

Yes, yes. He's a designer.

• Cornwell: He's a designer?

---

## Page 73

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 12.

Tirado:

He started working with us. He learned some--

Cornwell: Is he a

social acquaintance of yours in addition?

Tirado:

Is what?

Cornwell: Do you know him on a social basis in addition to

his being a

business associate of your husband?

Tirado: No business associate.

He was working for him, for

Horacio.

Cornwell: Okay. That's what I meant. He was an assistant.

Tirado:

Assistant.

Cornwell: All right.

Tirado:

No social. Sometimes he came to our house to dinner,

or something like that.

Cornwell: Next, you I believe pointed to Number 57.

correct? Fifty-seven?

Is that

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Who does that look like?

Tirado: He looks like Gavino. Fernandez.

Cornwell: What's the first name?

Tirado: Gavino.

Cornwell: Gavino? And who is he?

Tirado: Well, he's uh, dignitary, and 'he used to go to the

Cuban Institute.

Cornwell: He was a dignitary of what?

Tirado: He was working for the Social Security and he was

working, not in this Government period, in the last

---

## Page 74

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 13.

one, and he was working even with the President.

Cornwell: I see, so he was a dignitary of the Mexican Govern-

ment.

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Okay.

Tirado:

But when he was going to the Cuban Institute,.

no,

he didn't?

Cornwell: You also knew him from the Cuban. Institute?

Tirado:

He's an economist.

Cornwell: He's a what?

Tirado:

Economist.

Cornwell: Economist. You then pointed to Number 65.

Tirado: Perhaps.

Cornwell: And that's a face that you're not sure you recognize?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: But looks a little bit like who?

Tirado:

Solchi Vargas.

....

Cornwell: Solchi Vargas?

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: Okay. And who was she?

Tirado: She's Mexican lady who was married with a journal-

ist, he used to work for the Cuban press, and she

used to live in Cuba. And now she's at the Cuban

Institute.

Cornwell: I believe you next pointed to Number 111--

---

## Page 75

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 14.

Tirado:

yes.

Cornwell: And that's a, sort of a three-quarter shot from

behind.

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Of a man you think you might recognize, is that

correct?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: I'm sort of trying to recall the way you stated it

when you

first looked at the photographs, so if I

misstated it, just correct me.

Who do you think that man may be?

Tirado:

The attache, the Cuban Cultural Attache at that

time, Luis Alberu.

Cornwell: Alberu?

Tirado: Alberu.

Cornwell: And then I believe you next indicated that you may

recognize Photograph 115?

Tirado: Yes.

.-.

Cornwell: And who is that?

Tirado: Luis Alberu.

Cornwell: That of course is a front and you can clearly recog-

nize him from that photograph, is that correct?

Tirado: Yes.

i...

Cornwell: Then, you next pointed to Photograph 133. Do you

recognize that man?

Tiardo:

Yes.

Cornwell: Who is he?

---

## Page 76

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 15.

Tirado:

The doorman. Now I don't remember the

name.

Cornwell: But he's the doorman who left Lee Harvey Oswald

into the Consulate on his third visit?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: That's accurate?

Tirado:

Uh?. . .I said yes.

Cornwell: Okay. And then

I believe you pointed to photograph

158?

Tirado: Numbers 157 and 158.

Cornwell: 157 and 158. Who

was that?

Tirado: I think that he was working at the Consulate in

Vera Cruz?

Cornwell: And do you know what his position was at the Con-

sulate?

Tirado: I think he was Vice Consul but I'm not really sure.

Cornwell: And which Consulate is that?

Tirado: In Vera Cruz, Cuban,

the Cuban Consulate.

Cornwell: The Cuban Consulate in Vera Cruz.

And I believe finally you recognized possibly the

center man in the group photograph labeled 275.

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: And who do you think he is?

Tirado: An American.

Cornwell: Do you remember anything more about him?

---

## Page 77

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 16.

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Do you remember where you saw him?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Do you think you recognized the photo from a per-

sonal contact or from a picture?

Tirado:

From a picture I think. I think he was an American

Ambassador:

Cornwell: American Ambassador?

Tirado:

Or something like that.

Cornwell: All right.

And you don't have any memory what his

name might be?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Okay. Uh. •

Tirado:

But tell me, who is it? (Laughter.) For a change.

Cornwell: Do you recognize the man in photo 266?

Yes, that's

the one I want. 266?

Tirado:

No. He looks like Russian.

Cornwell: Do you recognize the man in 265?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Do you recognize the man in 213?

Tirado:

No. You're not going to tell me who's that man?

Cornwell: Not right now. (Laughter.) But maybe later.

When the assassination occurred, do you remember

where you were, when you first heard the news re-

ports?

---

## Page 78

-.......

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

17..

Tirado:

At the Consulate.

Cornwell: And do you know what you did at that time?.

Tirado:

No, it was almost noon, I mean the lunch hour,

about two o'clock, or near two o'clock, and some-

body came and said Kennedy was killed, and all was

confusion and, uh, well, we were really sorry.

Everybody came in and went out and there was con-

fusion. All over. And then I went home to have

lunch.

Cornwell: Did you speak to Horatio or anyone else prior to

going home?

Tirado:

I don't remember, really.

Cornwell: When you went home was he at home?

Tirado:

We used to have lunch.

Cornwell: And? As you recall he was there on that day?

Tirado: It was my birthday so he has to be there. (Laughter.)

Cornwell: What if any conversation do you recall having with him

at that time about the assassination?

Tirado: No, I don't remember. I only remember at night.

Cornwell: All right. You had a birthday party planned that

night. Is

that correct?

Tirado:

Yes.

'...

Cornwell: During the day, prior to the birthday party, had

you received or heard as part of the news broadcast

the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Tirado:

No, only in the afternoon.

---

## Page 79

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 18:

Cornwell: In the afternoon, after lunch?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: After you

returned to the Consulate, is

that correct?

Tirado: Perhaps.

Cornwell: And at that time, did you think you remembered the

name?

Tirado: It was, I think, at night, because, it was in the

afternoon, perhaps when they start saying about Oswald.

Right? And, it was at night and uh, I don't know if

I call my husband or we were in the kitchen mixing

some drinks or food, I don't know, but we were in

the kitchen

and I told him, I think this man went

to the Embassy to ask for a visa.

Cornwell: And at that time, had you heard his name?

Tirado:

His name?

Cornwell: His name, seen his picture, or both?

Tirado:

No, no.

The picture was in the newspapers the next

day.

Cornwell: Okay. So you only thought that you might have re-

called the name. Is that correct?

Tirado:

No, not the name, but when they say Lee Harvey Oswald,

married to the Russian woman and he live in Russia,

and things like that.

Cornwell: Okay. Did you have any other discussion that you

can recall with him about it? Based on that news

---

## Page 80

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 19.

report? About your contact?

Tirado:

With my husband?

Cornwell: Yes.

Tirado:

I

only told him, I think this man came to the Em-

bassy.

Cornwell: Then, the next morning you saw a newspaper.

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Were you sure at that time that that was the man?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Do you remember who was at the birthday party that

night? Do you remember whether or not you discussed

these events with any one else at the party?

Tirado: Yes, we were talking about it.

Cornwell: Whoever was at the party.

Tirado: The whole night, yes.

Cornwell: What was the tone of the party?

Tirado: SOIIOW. And speculation, what's going on? Because

with Kennedy we knew what was going on, but now,

what will happen?

Cornwell: The next morning what did you do?

Tirado: I show the paper to Horatio and told him this is the

man that went to the Embassy"and I went to the Consu-

late and I look in the Archivos

and I saw the ap-

plication, I saw that it was the man and I went to

the Embassy and I talked to the Ambassador and I told

him that this .

---

## Page 81

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

20:

Cornwell: What was the nature of your conversation with the

Ambassador? Just to tell him that that was the man?

Tirado:

Yes, I think so.

Cornwell: What was his name?

Tirado:

Fernandez Armes (or Hernandez).

Cornwell: And, did you do anything else? Did you pull the

file on him or make any other attempts to put the

facts together?

Tirado: I think I leave the file with him.

Cornwell: Pulled the file and left it with the Ambassador?

Tirado:

Yeah, the whole bunch.

Cornwell: What would have been in the file besides the appli-.

cation, if anything?

Tirado: Another applications.

Cornwell: I see, you pulled the whole file which included his

application?

Tirado:

yes:

Cornwell: Did anything else happen that morning at work?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Then, did you go home for lunch again?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: And what occurred at that time?

Tirado:

Uh, my brothers-in-law, servant, maid came and when she.

saw me, she cried, she started crying, and she said

"You're alive?" And I say "why?" "because

some man

---

## Page 82

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 21.

came to the house and says that uh, you had an

accident and you were dead and they take

away Senor

Ruben to identify you." Then we went to Ruben's

house and it was full of men and they catch me.

Cornwell: They caught you. Okay. And the men were representa-

tives of the Mexican police, is that correct?

Tirado:

Yeah, but they never told me.

Cornwell: What happened when you walked into the house, to Ru-

ben's house?

Tirado: I saw my brothers-in-law, wife, and the same thing.

She cries, and says "Silvia, you're okay?" "Yes,

I'm okay. " She was between two men and she couldn't

get near to me, but I was walking and I saw in the

bedroom, it was Ruben, and full of photographs on

the bed and he said the same thing--"Silvia, you're

okay, you're all right?" and I say "Yes" and "What

happened?" Then I saw the telephone and I try to

get the telephone and a man hold my hand and he

says you can't call because you are under arrest,

"and they say, I don't remember, but they say, ah,

this is the accomplice of Kennedy.

I thought that's

what they told but I say I dön't remember. They

told me, "You're under arrest." I sat down on the

bed and I said "You have to show me an order signed

by a judge that I am under arrest." Then they hold

---

## Page 83

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 22.

me, my hands, and I try to defend myself, and

they kicked somebody and they took me--

Cornwell: You were trying to kick them and keep them from tak-

ing you with them, right?

Tirado: Yes, yes.

Cornwell: Who were you going to call on the telephone?

Tirado: The police.

(Laughter.)

Tirado:

The police, the lawyer, I don't know. And when they

took me out of the house and I was crying, "Call the

police, call the police!" and they, he

covered my

mouth, and they took me to stationwagon that was

parked at the corner. There was a man there but I

didn't know him and I was quiet, and they say, "Don't

cry. Sacndalous woman." "Scandalous old woman, shut

up.. Because where we are

going we will see what's

going to happen to you." So, in that moment, I said

quit.

....

cornwell: So you were taken to the police station?

Tiardo: No. It's not the police station. The office where

the security, that was where the intelligence agencies

were in. But I didn't know that becausé

that building

belongs to the State Social Security. Not the one I

work for.

Cornwell: Then?

Tirado:

For government employees.

---

## Page 84

Silvia Tirado

Page 23.

Interview

Cornwell: And who else was taken down there besides you?

Tirado:

The whole--my brother-in-law, his wife, my sister-

in-law, a friend of hers, another woman that was

there,

and me, but they were

taken in another car.

Cornwell: And, at the police station, what inquiries were made

of you? What did they ask?

Tirado:

Everything. Everything. They asked me my name,

where was I born, my jobs, when I married, my status,

everything. They have my finger-prints, photographs

of myself, everything. And uh, well, they ask me

where I was working, if I had been in Cuba, some peo-

ple that I saw in Cuba, and what I was doing at the

Consulate, that there was a tunnel, that makes me

laugh, it was a tunnel from the Cuban Embassy to the

Russian Embassy, and uh, well, a lot of foolish ques-

tions.

Cornwell: Specifically, what did they allege that you had done?

Tirado:

What?

Cornwell: Specifically, what

did they allege you had done? What

did they accuse you of doing?

Tirado:

Nothing. They never said--

Cornwell: During the questioning on all the subject matters that

you had mentioned, did they make a verbatim transcript?

Did they record the conversation, or transcribe it?

Tirado:

They used a little machine. They say it is a steno-

graph or something like that.

Cornwell: They made a stenograph record.

• Tirado: Yeah, and a man was writing.

---

## Page 85

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

24.

Cornwell: All the questions and all the answers?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Did any of the procedures that we have asked you

about cause you to say anything to the police that

was not the truth?

Tirado:

No, I don't think so.

I don't have nothing to hide.

So.

Cornwell: Everything that you told them was the truth?

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: At any time during the questioning did they ever

allege that you had met with Oswald outside the

Consulate?

Tirado: Yes. A lot of times.

Cornwell: Did they ever ask you any questions about a Negro?

Tirado:

I don't remember.

Cornwell: You don't remember anything about that?

Tirado: No.

Cornwell: Did you ever know, during this same period of time,

any Negroes?

Tirado:

Yes. At the Commercial Attache was a Negro.

Cornwell: Anyone else?

Tirado: The doorman.

Cornwell: Anyone else?

Tirado: The wife of the Commercial Attache. And the children.

Cornwell: Is that all? Did they ask any specific questions

about them?

---

## Page 86

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

25.

Tirado: NO.

Cornwell: What was his name?

Tirado:

I don't remember.

I even don't remember if he was

there when Kennedy was shot.

Cornwell: Were they from Cuba?

Tirado:

yes.

Cornwell: Did you know any other Negroes from Cuba outside the

Consulate?

Tirado: I don't think so.

well, this man, the boy at consu-

lado at Vera Cruz. Hewas a Negro, not completely, but--

Cornwell: The one you showed us in the photograph?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Did you know any Negroes who had red hair?

None of the ones you described did?

Tirado:

No, we used to call "Red" to a boy who was working there

but he was like Spanish; I mean he was white and--

Cornwell: Not even very dark skinned?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: Remember his name?

Tirado: Rogelio, Rogelio Rodriguez,

I think, something

like that.

Cornwell: After the questioning, first, how aíd that terminate?

When did they finally release you?

Tirado: About one o'clock.

Cornwell: Did you meet again with your family, your husband?

---

## Page 87

Silvia Tirado

Page 26.

Tirado:

Yes.

well, they were waiting for me and. •

we went

to have lunch, something to eat because we

haven't had. And well, we talk about it.

Cornwell: Remember where you went?

Tirado:

No.

Horacio

told me we went to sanborn's.

I don't remember. I even don't remember when I got

home and what happened: Next day everyone know.

Cornwell: Did the officers

from the Securidad

Department

ever suggest to you during the questioning that they

had information that you and Oswald had been lovers?

Tirado:

Yes,

and also that we were Communists and

that we

were

planning the Revolution and uh, a lot of false

things.

Cornwell: What happened the next day?

Tirado: Well, we stayed home and at night a friend of ours

came and we didn't say anything.

Cornwell: Why was that?

Tirado:

Why?

Cornwell: Why did you not say anything?

Tirado: Because these people told me to keep quiet.

Cornwell: The police?

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: Or the officers?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Did you then go back over to the Consulate either

Sunday or Monday?

---

## Page 88

Silvia Tirado

Page 27.

Tirado:

On Monday.

Cornwell: Okay. What happened then?

Tirado:

When I got there everybody ask me what happened?

And I say "Why?" And in the newspaper was the

this part of the question that I told you about,

Azcue telling Oswald to go away.

Cornwell: It was in the newspapers?

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: How did the newspapers get that story?

Tirado:

I don't know.

Cornwell: You never had any idea?

Tirado: Well, of course.

The police gave it to Excelsior.

it was the first government newspager.

Cornwell: So you just always thought they got it from the

police?

Cornwell: But the people at the Consulate said they had read

the newspaper and asked you what had happened, right?

-.

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Did you discuss that with anybody that you can remem-

ber specifically?

Tirado: With the Ambassador.

Cornwell: And what was the nature of that conversation?

Tirado: I tried to repeat all the questions...

Cornwell: Okay. Uh. ..would that have been a violation of

what the police asked you to do?

To talk to the

---

## Page 89

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 28.

Ambassador about that?

Tirado:

Huh?

Cornwell: Was that a violation of what the police asked you

to do?

Was that. .

Tirado:

Well, of course. They told me to keep quiet. I

never says anything about what happened on Saturday.

Never. But when I saw in the papers I couldn't say

"Well, nothing happened." It was all in the paper

and it was exactly what I said to the police.

Cornwell: What did the Ambassador say to you?

Tirado: That he was going to write a report and he sent it

in the plane.

Cornwell: What if anything did you consider doing at the time?

Tirado: What?

Cornwell: Did you consider taking any course of action at the

time?

Tirado: Oh. I was going to make a protest to the Mexican

Government. We went to, a friend of mine was a daugh-

ter of the Chief of Tinetrath) and we could reach the

President and we were going to ask to explain

what happened and you know, there was an illega? (tape

stops) ..

Cornwell: Did, in addition to your considering filing formal

protest with the Mexican Government, did you also

consider taking a trip out of the country?

Tirado: NO.

---

## Page 90

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 29.

Cornwell: Did you consider going to Cuba?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: What happened after that?

Tirado:

Well, I told to the Ambassador all that happened

during the questioning and I told him also about

the protest

that we wanted to make and I asked

him, "Don't do anything because we are trying to do

something here, against these police." And after

that, uh, Tuesday, I went to work and Wednesday

morning when I was going to have breakfast the

police came again, two agents, and they asked me,

very polite, if I want to go with them, just to

answer some questions. They wanted to know some-

thing. And, uh, it was unnecessary to take my

car because they were going to take me and bring

me back.

So I called uh, the Consulate. That's

why I remember I already had the

telephone

and I said I'm coming in late because I'm going to

the police station. Okay, don't worry, we wait for

you. And they keep me

two days and a half.

Cornwell: And why did they tell you that they

,kept you this

time?

Tirado: Uh, to protect me.

Cornwell: Did they tell you anything in any more detail?

Was there a specific threat?

---

## Page 91

Silvia Tirado

Page 30.

Tirado:

Interview

No. They were very rough this time. They were very

angry with me, the man that I told you, that I kicked

him in his balls.

He was very angry, and they repeat

Lopez:

Tirado:

the same questions but they were more, how you say,

how do you say anticipito?

They anticipated her.

And they were, wanted to know exactly what I have done

in Cuba, the people that I met there, everything.

They were asking me questions about all the people

that were working in the Embassy and uh, this time

I wanted to go to the bathroom and they wouldn't take

me and it was longer, because it was about 10:00

from 10:00, I think almost 6:00, they questioned me.

Cornwell: Were you afraid during the two periods they held you?

Tirado: Yes. I don't know exactly what happened but I was

uh, I was innocent. So I said, what am I doing here,

no? And uh, the only thing that I have, I had the

feeling that I was

5 going to die and I said okay, if

I'm going to die, I'm going to die, how you say it,

with pride, my child will not be shamed. I remember

I do anything that--I was very dramatic in those mo-

ments. So, sometimes I lost my temper.

I never say

no bad words or nothing. I cry sometimes, I shout

and things like that but then I sat down again.

Cornwell: As I understand it, they tried to scare you, is that

correct?

---

## Page 92

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 31.

Tirado: Yes.

The first time.

Cornwell: The first time. Because of that was there anything

that you knew that you simply refused to tell them?

Tirado:

That's what they thought. Because all the time they

tell me that I was

a Communist and I said I'm not a

Communist, but do you believe in Socialism? Yes, I

believe in Socialism but I'm not a Communist; and

they insisted that I was a very important people for

the government, the Cuban Government, and that I was

the link for the International Communists--the Cuban

Communists, the Mexican Communists and the American

Communists, and that we were going to kill Kennedy,

and I was the link. For them I was very important.

Of course, it was not true.

Cornwell: Okay. Even though you were innocent of those charges,

you had not conspired to kill the President and were

not in the Communist Party.

Tirado: Yes.

Cornwell: Because that was what they were interested in, because

that was the nature of the allegation, did you with-

hold any part of your story? Were you afraid that

something you had done, although innocent, they

might have misconstrued, misunderstood, so did you

withhold any information from them because of the

Tirado:

very severe accusations they were making?

No. I tried to answer it, what they, asked me I tried

to answer. All the time.

---

## Page 93

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 32.

cornwell: You understand though, the kind of question I'm

asking you?

(Tirado spoke to Lopez in Spanish, who asked Cornwell to re-

peat the question.)

Cornwell: Okay, let me just ask you a hypothetical. Some-

times, a person has done something completely inno-

cent but then they are confronted with a very se-

vere accusation. They may think that their innocent

act will be misunderstood by their accusers so they

might withhold the innocent act simply to be sure

that they don't get into more trouble--

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: Simply to be sure they don't get into more trouble

than they apparently are already in.

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: There was no thing that you had done of seen of knew

about that you withheld because of that?

Tirado:

No. No, I explain everything that they wanted to

know and uh, I think sometimes they were fools.

Cornwell: They were what?

Lopez:

Fools.

Cornwell: Fools.

Tirado: Tonto. Fools.

Cornwell: After they finally released you, they held you for

another two, two and a half days. Did you make any

---

## Page 94

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

33.

trips out of the country then?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: How long did you continue to be married to Horatio

after that?

Tirado:

Five years.

Cornwell: Why were you finally divorced?

Tirado:

We separate and we divorce perhaps four years after.

Cornwell: Why was that?

Tirado: Why? Why we divorce four years after?

Because we don't like.

Cornwell: Go ahead.

Tirado: Because he did not want to get legal problems and

he said that it was a lot of problems to get divorced.

He was married once so he said that it was nonsense.

Cornwell: Why were you separated?

Tirado: Because I used to believe in the romantic love, and

even we have a very, how you say that, uh, we loved

each other very much but it was not the passionate

love that I used to believe in, so I thought it bet-

ter to divorce, get divorced. It is very difficult

to explain.

(Tirado speaks to Lopez in Spanish.) ..

Lopez:

They were incompatible, had incompatible characters.

Cornwell: You have not spoken to anybody in the news media or

any official investigating body since 1963 about

these events, is that correct, except for the

---

## Page 95

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 34.

Washington Post and that was approximately a year or

so ago, a year and a half ago?

Tirado:

Yeah.

Cornwell: You indicate that you read some part of the Warren

Commission Report recently. Do you recall anything

about that that was inaccurate other than what you

have already related?

The part that you read.

Tirado:

What?

Cornwell: Was

there any part of that which was inaccurate that

you can recall?

Tirado:

What I said. That I was exceeding my duties.

Cornwell: Had you either done anything or offered to do any-

thing for Oswald other than what you have already

described to us?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: And was that all within the scope of your responsi-

bility?

Tirado: It was. .

..-.

Cornwell: Was it all within the scope of your authority?

Tirado: Scope?

(Lopez translates.)

Tirado: Yes.

(Tirado speaks to Lopez in Spanish.)

Cornwell: Did you ever have any of the people at the Cuban

Consulate attend parties in your home?

Was there

---

## Page 96

Silvia Tirado Interview

age 35.

a social relationship with any of them?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Which ones?

Tirado: Azcue, Maria Carmen, I think Luisa, she went once.

Cornwell: Who is that? Luisa?

Tirado: Luisa Caldaron, the one you ask me.

Cornwell: Okay. Azcue, Luisa, and the secretary who was killed,

is that correct?

Tirado:

Before, before this, before I used to work at the

Embassy, uh, and before we move to Constitutyentes

we make some parties, for instance, when Armando Hart

(Ph.) was here, he was the Minister of Education, and

with the Ambassador he was in that time and Organa,

who was Director of the Movies Institute: Some people

who came from Cuba. We used to invite.

Cornwell: Okay. How about Theresa Proenza?

Tirado: Perhaps she came.

Cornwell: Did you ever receive any indication from them that

any of them had ever had a contact with Oswald?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: Did Elena or Elinita Garro de Paz ever come to those

parties? In your home?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Or in the home of Ruben?

---

## Page 97

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 36:

Tirado: Once, but it was, I think it was

before that I was

in the Cuban Embassy.

Cornwell: Would it have been approximately around

'63?

Tirado: I don't know because when they came from France.

Cornwell: Approximately 1963?

Tirado: I only, perhaps, I don't know.

Hardway: Did you say that it was when they came from France?

Tirado:

Yes.

Hardway: It was after they

returned from France that they

came to one of the parties?

Tirado:

Yeah, to Ruben's house.

Hardway: At Ruben's house.

Tirado: Yeah. That was the whole family there.

I only saw Elena a

few times. One was the day that

I got married and another time was somewhere else,

I think three times I only saw her.

Cornwell: 'Did you know General Clark Flores?

Tirado: Yeah, but not very well.

Cornwell: Was he ever at those parties?

Tirado:

I don't remember.

Perhaps once, at Ruben's house

but not at my house.

Cornwell: Did you know Emilio Carbillido ?

i

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Did he ever attend those parties?

Tirado: I don't remember.

---

## Page 98

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 37.

Cornwell: Did Devaci?

Tirado:

Devaci. Elena's sister.

Cornwell: Did she attend those parties?

Tirado:

No, she went, I think I saw her sometimes at the

Embassy.

Cornwell: How about Eunice odio?

Tirado:

No. I know her, I mean I met her sometime.

But,

no.

She was not a close friend.

Cornwell: Over the years, have any of those people ever indi-

cated to you that they had any knowledge of Oswald's

trip to Mexico City?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Have they ever professed to have either seen him or

heard any stories about any one who did see or meet

with him?

Tirado:

No.

Cornwell: Has anyone else ever come to you since 1963 and pro-

fessed to have knowledge of Oswald's trip to Mexico

..-.

City?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: Would you have any reason to believe that if we spoke

to any of those people they could háve information

of help to us?

Tirado:

I don't know.

Cornwell: Have you ever had any association with any intelli-

gence agency of any country, including our own?

---

## Page 99

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 38.

Tirado:

Once I met a Russian when I was working at the

Press

Agency but he was from the Russian Press,

and they say that he was from the police, the Rus-

sian Police but I don't know.

Cornwell: But you just met him one time?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: I don't have any additional questions.

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

I have a few questions of Ms. Duran. As normal

procedure, when a person came to the Cuban Consulate,

do you explain to them that

there are different

types of visas?

No.

So they would normally come to you and ask you for

a special type of visa, and then you would get that

kind of application?

Uh, huh.

Okay.

The application was the same.

Same application. But they were different visas.

There were only two visas. Transit visa and normal

visa.

You didn't normally explain to people whether

there were two different types of visas when they

came to you until after--

Tirado:

Perhaps.

---

## Page 100

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 39.

Lopez:

Okay. I just wanted to read to you a couple of

sections of what was recorded in the Warren Commis-

sion Report. What happened was, there was a report

given by the Mexican authorities to the Warren Commis-

sion and it was published in the report and let me

read you one sentence, okay?

The declarant complied with her duties, took

down all the information and completed the appro-

priate application form, and the declarant admit-

tedly, exceeding her responsibilities, informally

telephoned the Russian Consulate with

the inten-

tion of doing what she could to facilitate issu-

ance of the Russian visa to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Is that statement accurate?

Tirado:

It's that one and I don't like it. The other one?

Lopez:

That part about admittedly exceeding her responsibili-

ties?

Tirado:

Uh huh.

Cornwell: That's the part you had reference to earlier when you

told us that you had read something--

Tirado:

Yes.

Lopez:

Tirado:

It says here that you telephoned the Russian Consulate.

Yes.

Lopez:

Tirado:

Did he ever telephone you back?

Lopez:

NO.

i

Okay.

And it says here with the intention of doing

what she could to facilitate issuance of the Russian

visa.

Did you ever do anything else to facilitate the

issuance of the visa?

---

## Page 101

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 40:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

No, nothing. I couldn't do anything.

Did you ever explain to him that in order to get

a visa he could have a recommendation letter from

a fellow Communist or a fellow Cuban citizen,

and

then if he had that letter, he could get a visa?

Yeah, that was one of the requirements.

And then, did you ever send him to anyone, give

him the name of anybody?

No, never.

I mean I never did that.

I see.

Okay. Then there's another section here

that says:

However, they told her (this is the russian

Consulate) that there would be a delay of about

four months in processing the case.

Was that the first time that you explained to Lee

Harvey Oswald that it would take him about four months

to get à visa?

Yes, I didn't know it.

Was that when he became angry?

More or less.

More or less. And that would have been on his third

visit?

Yes.

Okay.

Then there's one other section here. It says:

The Consulate who came out and began a

heated discussion in English with Oswald,

that concluded by Azcue telling him that lI

it were up to him he would not give him the

visa. and a person of this type was harming

---

## Page 102

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

41.

the Cuban Revolution rather than helping

1t.

It being understood that in the con-

versation they were talking about the Rus-

sian

Socialist Revolution and not the cuban.

Is that correct?

Tirado:

No.

Lopez:

What is your understanding of that?

Tirado:

The conversation that he had with Azcue, was

exclusively with the Cuban Revolution.

Lopez:

Exclusively with the Cuban Revolution.

I wanted to ask you, in this report here, they

don't say how many times Lee Harvey Oswald visited

the Cuban Consulate. Did you ever tell the Mexican

officials how many times he had visited?

Tirado: I think so.

Lopez: And it was probably taken down by a stenographer.

Tirado: Yes.

Lopez:

Do you consider this report which is about a page

long to be completely fair and accurate and complete?

Tirado:

No, because about exceeding my duties and about

Azcue speaking about the Russian Revolution, that's

Lopez:

not true.

But, my question is, they interrogated, you from about

four in the afternoon until about twelve at night,

and in that process you spoke to them for eight

whole hours and yet the whole conversation, interro-

'gation, has been reduced to one page. Do you consi-

---

## Page 103

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 42.

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

der this accurate? Is it complete?

No, of course not. Because they ask me a lot of

questions that has not been in the Warren--about my

trip to cuba, about my job at the Institute, the

Cuban Institute, about why I have been Communist, as

they say, and I say I'm not a Communist, and it takes

hours to explain them. And as you explain you are not

a Communist, if you are a member of the Communist

Party, things like that, and where did you take

your beliefs, no?

I say at the University, oh, at

the University, and then there's a discussion and

uh, the classes I take at

the University, and things

like that.

Okay •

You do remember telling the Mexican officials

when they questioned you how many times Oswald visited

the Consulate?

I think so. And I, they asked me I don't know how

many times, the way that I used to give my name and

telephone number and. they made me write and they take

the paper out and then again, they ask me, how do you

do this, and I write it down, and I give the paper.

I think I did it five or six times.

And did they ever

ask you to describe Oswald?

Tirado: Yes:

Lopez:

Would you do me a favor and describe him for me now?

---

## Page 104

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 43.

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

(Laughter.)

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Yes.

FOr

example,

let's start at the beginning.

Was he

tall,

short?

Short.

Short. Could you stand up for a minute,

Gary?

Would you say he was as tall as Gary?

Yeah, more or less.

Would you say he was taller than Gary?

No, I think just the same.

He was about my size.

About your height?

Yeah.

Okay. And what's your height?

160. I think 160 or 162.

Was

he skinny?

Yes.

Skinny.

Could you estimate how much he weighed?

About your weight, more or less.

About my weight. We already went over. . .

He has stronger shoulders, perhaps, than yours.

Just for the record, my weight is 119 pounds. You

•told us before he had a suit on.

That I don't remember very well. I think he was

wearing a jacket but what I can remember is that he

was not wearing nice clothes, expensive clothing.

---

## Page 105

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 44.

He was cheap, perhaps.

Lopez:

Do you remember what his nose

looked like?

Was it

skinny? Fat?

Tirado:

NO.

He was normal.

There was nothing that you may

remember.

The eyes were small.

Lopez:

Small eyes.

Tirado:

Smaller than yours.

Lopez:

Smaller than mine, for the record. I can't do that.

Tirado: If you describe, you say small eyes.

Cornwell: Okay. In sum, you identified a picture in the book

as being as best as you can remember his face and

hair. Was there anything about that which in your

memory was different from the picture other than the

fact that you do remember his eyes being blue or

green and his hair being very light colored or blond

but not as light as some of the other pictures look.

Tirado: And he has not very much. He was, has few, poco pelo.

Lopez:

He didn't have very much hair.

Cornwell: Is there anything else about that picture in the book

Tirado:

which does not look like your memory of him?

No, but because even when I saw the television when

he was shot, I used to remember him, I mean it was

Lopez:

the same that I remember.

I understand. If you bear with me just a few more

minutes--his hair line, was it receding?

---

## Page 106

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

45.

Tirado:

Lopez:

Yeah, yeah. Quite a bit.

Okay. And his cheeks, were they high cheek bones or

low cheek bones? Do you remember that?

Tirado:

Well, I remember that he was a little, I don't know

what you call it (spoke with Lopez in Spanish.)

Lopez:

An elongated face.

Tirado: Uh huh.

Lopez:

Did he have a long chin?

Tirado: No.

Lopez (To Cornwell): Do you have any more questions about his

description?

Lopez (To Duran): Just wanted to ask you a few other questions.

Did Luis Aparicio ever attend any of those twist par-

ties that you had, or that Ruben had?

Tirado:

No, Ruben never,

Ruben never have parties for the peo-

ple at the Embassy.

Lopez:

Did he ever attend?

Tirado:

Aparico, he was, I don't remember, where he was, I

think he works in the Commercial Office. I don't

remember.

Lopez:

You don't remember if he went to any parties?

Tirado:

Lopez:

No. But he was at the Cuban Embassy!

Okay. Dó you know a person named Eunice Odio?

Tirado:

Yes.

---

## Page 107

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 46.

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

•What was your relationship to Eunice Odio?

It was not close. I know her because she's a

poetess and uh, well, I know a lot of painters, things

like that, but just hello and. • perhaps if I meet

her now I don't know if I could recognize or even

she recognize me.

I see. And did she ever attend any of those parties?

No.

Do you know a person named Ricardo Guerra?

Yes.

And what was your relationship to him?

Very close.

Very close. Could you elaborate?

Well, when I was unmarried I had a lot of friends and

his sisters were friends of mine, that's when I met

him, before I got married. And when I married, we

continued our friendship and uh, he got married with

a writer, but I admire her very much, and he was a

..-.

very close friend of mine, and we continue the rela-

tion all the time that we were married. Both. And

uh, he was professor at the philosophy faculty, he

was my teacher also. I mean he was 'a close friend.

I see.

He was a professor, you said

Yes.

Did you ever attend any seminars at the University of

Mexico where he was lecturing?

---

## Page 108

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 47.

Tirado:

No, we used to have in our house.

Lopez:

What were those seminars

about?

Tirado:

Marxism

seminar.

Lopez:

You never, though, attended any seminars at the

Tirado:

University of Mexico?

No, he was a teacher and I used to take lessons with

him. Existentialism, you know?

(Spoke in Spanish.)

Lopez:

Only two courses.

Do you know if he ever held seminars at the Univer-

sity of Mexico?

Tirado:

Lopez:

He had to.

By any chance do you remember if he would ever hold

seminars on Saturdays?

Tirado:

NO.

Lopez:

No, he did not or no, you do not remember?

Tirado:

I don't know, I don't know.

Hardway: I've just got a few questions that if you'll bear

with me. .

....

During the three times that you met Oswald, did you

ever hear him speak any language other than English?

Tirado:

NO.

Hardway: In general, in the Consulate's Office, was it com-

mon for any other language other than Spanish to be

spoken?

---

## Page 109

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

48.

Tirado:

NO.

Hardway:

Was Russian ever commonly spoken at the Consulate's

Office?

Tirado:

No.

Hardway: Do you remember anyone having spoken Russian in that

office?

Tirado:

No.

Hardway: At any time?

Tirado:

Hardway:

No, I don't think. The only language they speak, it

was English, and not everybody, just

a few of them.

When Oswald came back the third time, did he tell

you that he had a Russian visa or that the Russians

had told him that there wouldn't be any problem?.

Tirado:

That he was going to get the Russian visa, that

there was no problem.

Hardway: Did he tell you that he was going to get it, or that

he already had it?

Tirado:

He said I already got it.

-.

Hardway: And he told you that he already had it as opposed

to telling you that they had assured him that there

was no problem?

i

Tirado:

Yes.

Hardway: Could you tell me what Eusebio Azcue thought about

John Fitzgerald Kennedy, President Kennedy?

Tirado: What he thought? About the assassination?

---

## Page 110

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

49.

Hardway: No, about President Kennedy.

Tirado: I don't know, I don't remember.

Hardway: Did you ever discuss President Kennedy with

Consul Azcue?

Tirado:

No, he was not here when Kennedy was killed.

Hardway: I'm asking not about the assassination .but about

Kennedy and his policies and things like that.

Tirado:

No.

Hardway: Did you ever hear Azcue discuss it with anyone

else?

Tirado:

No.

Hardway: Did--

Lopez:

Have you seen Azcue since 1963?

Tirado:

I don't remember if he came. His son came, and

I don't remember if he came once to Mexico and he

told me about the conversation that he had with

Fidel Castro but I told you the other day what

Fidel says and all of that and the way they write

.-.

a protest

to Mexico, to the Mexican Government,

but I'm not really sure if he was his son, or if he

was Azcue.

Lopez:

Tirado:

Lopez:

would you have seen Azcue at.any time during the last

two years?

No, I think that I never saw him again.

His son, he came, I saw him, but, Azcue, I dont remember.

Do you know if Eusebio Alcue is still in Cuba?

---

## Page 111

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

50.

Tirado:

I think so. I don't know.

Hardway: Did you ever discuss with Consul. Azcue the policies

of United States towards Cuba? Or other Latin American

countries?

Tirado:

Perhaps we did, but I don't remember.

Hardway: Do you remember by chance what Azcue's views would

have been on that? Did you ever discuss Alcue's

Tirado:

views on changing that policy?

What I remember is that during the Blockade (spoke

Lopez:

Tirado:

to Lopez in Spanish.)

The Student Economic Bloc of 1968.

The strike, I'm sorry. The economic blockade.

What I remember but I don't remember exactly if it

was Azcue, the Commercial Attache, the Ambassador,

but what I remember, it was all the people, they

have expectations and they were how you say, trust-

ing, that with Kennedy, the policy of the American

Government was changing. They were hoping. . .

Hardway: Did you or anyone else at the Consulate ever offer

Lee Harvey Oswald any aid of any kind?

Tirado:

No.

Hardway: Did you ever know a person by, the name of Guillermo

Ruiz?

Tirado:

No.

Hardway: Just for the record, when you were arrested on that

Saturday afternoon, what time that arrest was, approxi-

mately?

---

## Page 112

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

51.

Tirado:

About three o'clock.

Hardway:

Was the interrogation that was conducted at that time

transcribed or taped?

Tirado: It was written and when I sign I read it.

Hardway:

Was it written out in a summary form or was it written

Tirado:

out as you said it?

They change, because once it was a man with a little

machine, and another moment

it

was a man writing, typ-

ing.

Hardway: But most of it was taken down literally, as you said

it?

Tirado: And with the typewriter.

Hardway:

Did you sign that which was taken down as you said it?

Or did you sign a summary of that?

(Lopez translated.)

Tirado:

No, no, no. They were typing, all the time. They

were typing all the time, even once, I don't know how

many times, they told me, slow, because he was writing.

But they didn't write exactly what I said sometimes

because when I read all of that bunch of papers they

say, come on, it's one o'clock, here, sign this. I

said, no, I'm not going to sign this if I not read it.

And sometimes I said this, I didn't say that. For

instance, no? For instance, I'd remember, they say

she was very, very glad when Kennedy, came. And I

say

no.

I said I like it but I didn't say that I was

---

## Page 113

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page 52.

very, very glad. Things like that, no?

Hardway:

But almost, it was what I said. But they didn't want

to change anything.

Okay. Did you ever discuss the allegation that

they made that you had been

Lee Harvey Oswald's lover

with your husband?

Tirado:

Well, I told him almost all what happened. He told

me what they did to him and I told him what they did

to me.

Hardway: Do you remember specifically talking about that spe-

cific allegation with your husband?

Tirado:

No, it was not important.

Hardway: Going back to when you recognized Oswald, the

man whose picture you had seen in the paper as the

man who had been at the Embassy three times. Were

Tirado:

you certain that the man in the papers was the same

man, before you checked your records at the Archives?

Yes. Immediately

I saw the paper,

I told him. This

was the man that I want to check.

Hardway:

To your knowledge, was Horatio ever a member of the

Communist Party?

Tirado:

I think that he was, I don't. know if he was exactly

member, but he was sympathizer andwe had a lot of

friends that they were members of the Communist Party.

Hardway: Uh, to your knowledge, was Horatio ever a member of

any intelligence organization?

---

## Page 114

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

53.

Tirado:

I don't remember exactly. I think he was working

for the, how you say that? I think he was in a cam-

paign. Against the drugs.

Hardway:

Do you know when that would have been?

Tirado:

No.

Hardway: Do you know when he would have been a sympathizer

for, with the Communist Party?

Tirado: I think it was before we got married.

Tirado: Well, I'm completely sure. Being Communist, being

policeman. All of that, it was after I meet him.

Hardway: Do you know why--

Tirado:

I mean before I meet him.

Hardway: Do you know why they asked you to keep quiet after

the first interrogation?

Tirado: No, I don't.

Hardway: Did you ever attend a party where Lee Harvey Oswald

was present?

Tirado:

The party where Lee, no, I don't know that he attends

some parties.

Hardway: The question was, did you ever attend a party where

he was present?

Tirado:

No.

Hardway: That's all I've got.

---

## Page 115

silvia Tirado Interview

Page 54.

Cornwell: Just two brief matters and I promise we will end

this very long questioning session.

The questions which were just asked you about which

languages he spoke, by Mr. Hardway, when the call

was made to the Russian Embassy, what language was

spoken there?

Tirado:

Spanish.

Cornwell: Did the Russians speak Spanish too?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Did at any point in that conversation Russian-speaking

people get involved? Did anyone at the Russian

Tirado:

Embassy

speak Russian to you?

I don't speak Russian.

Cornwell: Well. I understand that. Did you at any point put

Oswald on the phone and let him talk?

Tirado:

No, no.

Cornwell: The reason I'm asking of course is to try to jog

your memory. Did he at any point in that transaction

.-..

speak Russian? Did Oswald speak Russian that you

recall?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: The second question, just to be suré that we've got

your memory as

accurate as we can on it, have you not

spoken to Azoue at

all since 1963?

---

## Page 116

Silvia Tirado Interview

Page

55.

Tirado: That's something that I don't exactly remember.

If he came

once.or if he was with his son, but I

knew all about Fidel's and Azcue's conversations.

Cornwell: So you do remember either talking to Azcue or his

son about the Oswald trip?

Tirado:

Not the Oswald trip, the Fidel, what he says. Be-

cause Azcue was called by Fidel Castro in that day

when the Cuban Ambassador sent my report. That's

what I told you the other day. In the same day

they speak to Azcue, Fidel, they spoke, they have a

conversation, and then on the second day, that Sun-

day present, they protest to Mexican Ambassador.

Cornwell: You described to us earlier how the Ambassador filed

a report. Did you ever see the report?

Tirado: NO.

Cornwell: Do you know what was in it by any other means? To

the best of your knowledge, it would at least have

(Tape ends.)

---

## Page 117

TAPE 3

Sylvia

Tirado (Duran)

Page 1.

Cornwell:

Okay. The first part of your memory is that,

as I understand it, the Ambassador filed a report

within three days or so after the assassination

and your arrest, right?

Then you mentioned something about

Fidel talking

to Azcue is that correct?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: How did you learn that?

Tirado:

That's what I don't remember.

Cornwell: Okay. At any rate, what can you remember about

the nature of that contact? Between Azcue and

Fidel?

Tirado:

Fidel asked him what happened exactly that day in

the Consulate and Azcue tried to remember every-

thing and he said what he knew, that Fidel was

afraid of uh, if I was going to say something

false to, because I was threatened by the police,

and uh, Ascue says that no, that I was honest and

I was not going to do anything false. That that was

not the right thing, the truth, . ..

Cornwell:

Okay. In other words, Fidel was worried about

the possibility that you would say something against

the Cuban Government?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: And that's because you were a Mexican citizen, is

that correct?

---

## Page 118

Sylvia Tirado

Page 2.

Tirado:

And I was,

• . . (asked Lopez how to translate)

threatened.

Cornwell:

Okay.

So he was afraid that the Mexican authori-

ties might threaten you and that you might say

something against the Cuban Government?

Tirado:

Yeah.

Because the police many times told me, you

have to say the truth. Remember that you have a

little child. And. • remember, you have a daugh-

ter.

And remember you have a daughter. All the

time they were telling me this.

Cornwell:

Okay.

Did you possess any information that might

have

incriminated the Cuban Government?

Tirado:

NO.

Cornwell: And you can't remember how it is that you learned .

about this questioning of Azcue by Fidel, is that

right?

Tirado:

Yeah.

Cornwell:

Then, several years later, you had another conver-

sation with either Azcue or his son, is that cor-

rect?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell: Do you think it might have been Azcüe?

Tirado:

Could be.

Cornwell:

Is that when you learned about his conversations

with Fidel?

Tirado:

Yes.

---

## Page 119

Sylvia Tirado

Page 3.

Cornwell: During that period of time, when you spoke to

Azcue two or three years later, what if anything

did he have

to say about

the

assassination?

Tirado:

What did he say?

Cornwell: Yes.

Tirado:

I don't know.

Cornwell:

When you believed you may have talked to him.

Tirado:

Did he have any theories or speculation?

I don't remember. I only remember the part that

they were talking about me.

Cornwell: Did he believe as strongly as you apparently do

that the person who was on television and in the

newspapers was the same man who went into the Con-

sulate?

Tirado:

Yes.

I don't know about television because he

was not here.

Cornwell: He was not on television here?

Tirado:

No, no. Azcue was

not here.

Cornwell: I know, but I mean when you talked to him two or

three years later. Did he say anything about that?

Tirado:

No. I don't remember.

Cornwell:

Do you think for sure that the man who was on tele-

vision was the man who came to the Consulate?

Tirado:

Yes.

Cornwell:

The man who was killed by Jack Ruby?

Tirado:

Yes.

---

## Page 120

Sylvia Tirado

Page 4.

Cornwell: Did you see him being killed by Ruby on televi-

Tirado:

Cornwell:

Tirado:

Cornwell:

sion?

Yes, yes.

Was there anything about him that looked different

to you?

No.

It was black and white.

So I couldn't see

the color.

But he looks like the one that I

met.

Guess that's

all the questions and thank you again

for being so patient with us and answering allof

our endless questions.

It is 9:15 p.m.

Lopez:

br 7-6-78

---

## Page 121

AZCUE / STATEMI VIS

---

## Page 122

....

KENNEDY

COMMITTEE SENSITTE

OUTSIDE CONTACT REPOST

007130

DATE

Aprit

-=,

TIME

1973

-3:00

I.

Identifying Information:

Name

Eusabio Azcue

Cuba

Address

Telephone

Type of Contact:

Telephone

-

*Person

II.

Sunmary of Contact:

an toril 1, 1972 The Ecllowina Congrassman and state personnal

intervianes sener ausedia azouei louis stokes. Richardson.

Prever, Christooner Doda, G. Robert Slaker, GaIy Cornwell

and Edwin Juan Looez.

III.

Recommended Follow-up (if any):

mnt mde san they bate alceady seen fiven

to those interestad partias

COMMITTES SENSITE

Signature:

Form

---

## Page 123

Eusabio Azcue Intarzien... page 1

COMMITTEE SENSERVE

BLAKEY:

I vonder if you would state your name for the

record.

AZCUE :

MI. Azcue - Busabio Azcue.

BLAKEY:

How

old are you?

AZCUE: 66 years old.

BLAKEY :

Are you now employed?

AZCUE: I am now retired.

BLAKEY: where were you formerly employed?

AZCUE: I was formerly employed in construction.

I was

an architect and I was working until I got heartsick.

BLAKEY: Were you employed in 1963?

AZCUE: Yes.

I was the Cuban consul.

BLAKEY: Where?

AZCUE: Mexico City.

BLAKEY: In that connection, do you recall meeting bee harvey

Oswald?

AZCUE: Yes. He came to us in order to apply for a

visa to go to Cuba.

BLAKEY: Could I show you a document then which is

marked "Request for a visa No. 779"?

way I ask you if that

is the copy of the visa filled out by Lee Halvey Oswald?

AZCUE: Yes. This is his signature. And this is his

picture. The date is correct - September 27th. This visa

was

issued in the Cuban consulate in Mexico City.

BLAKEY: Was this signature signed in your presence?

AZCUE :

Yes, of coursa.

BLAKEY: would you tell us in your own words all the

facts and circumstances that you recall about the application?

COMMITTEE SENSELE

---

## Page 124

usabio Azoue Interian... page ?

AZCUE: Yes, of course.

I recall lt quite nell for i

nad to remember this meeting on several different

occasions when

many were toving to involve us in this assassination.

He visited

the embassy on that date, September 27th, or a previous date to

solicit a visa.

BLAKEY: would you remember the date of the first request?

AZCUE: It would be one or two days before the date on

the application.

BLAKEY: And do you remember the date of the second visit?

AZCUE: Exactly the date on the application - September 27th.

BLAKEY: would you tell us exactly what happened the first

time he was with you?

AZCUE: He applied for a visa and brought a paper

accrediting him as a member of the Communist Party of the American

nations. He also brought documents accrediting him as a member.

of the Fair Play For Cuba, which vas an association aiding Cuba

at the time. He said he nas going to the soviet union but ne

wanted an intransit visa to visit cuba for one of two weeks.

BLAKEY: Do you recall what time of day it vas when ne

came?

AZCUE :

he came in the morning between

10:00 and

12:00

or 10:00 and 1:00.

BLAKEY: Is there anything in your mind that fixes it

at this precisa hour?

---

## Page 125

Eusebio azcue intarriew...gage 3

AZCUE: Yes. The consulate opened at 10:00 a.m. in the

morning to the public and it closed at 2:00 p.m. in the afternoon.

BLAKZY:

So it nad to be between 10:00 and 2:00?

AZCUE: Yes - 10:00 and 2:00 sometime. I think it nas

around 1:00 o'clock. Then we asked him for photos to attach to

the application. Then he came the following day

and brought

with him his photos -- probably that same date listed on the

application, the 27th of September.

BLAKEY: How long was he there the first time?

AZCUE: His first visit was quite short. He vas intarested

in the visa and then ve told him that he had to

bring photos and

35

result ne could not do anything more lor him at that time.

BLAKEY:

was there any conversation had that did not

relate to the visa?

AZCUE: First day - first tine he visited us - no; the

sacond time - yes - when he brought the photos.

BLAKEY:

was he with anyone the first day?

AZCUE: NO.

He ainays came alone.

BLAKEY: Did you see

someone outside that he may have

gone out to meet?

AZCUE :

That I was not able to sae, for my office did not

have a window looking to the exterior of the öuilding. I could

really not see outside.

BLAKEY:

was there anything that he said that would lead.

you to beliave that he may nave been with someone else?

---

## Page 126

Eusabio Azcue

Interrien... page

AZCUE: NO.

BLAKEY: Was there anything that he

night nave said

that would lead you to believe

that he was alone?

AZCUE :

No. He had no reason to relate any of that informa-

tion to me.

BLAKEY:

Could you tell us about what time he came the

second time?

AZCUE: He came at approximately the same time that he

came on nis first visit - to bring the photos and also to

fill out his application.

BLAKEY: Did he. tell

you where he got the photograph?

AZCUE: No, he dia not.

BLAKEY: Did he indicate to you why he did not bring

them with him the first time?

AZCUE :

Nobody brings them the first

time. He brought

papers that belonged to his wife that stated that she was a

citizen of the soviet Union and he also brought papers. that

accredited hin as a citizen of the soviet union which I myself

did not understand. But later I will explain how I found out.

BLAKEY: Could you state what was said and done on the

second occasion?

AZCUE: On that occasion he asked me how

long it rould take

for the visa application to get authorized.

BLAKEY: And what did you tell him?

---

## Page 127

Eusabio Azoua

Interriew...oage 5

AZCUE: I told him that is he had friends in Cuba that

would recommend him, the process would become expedited - would

be expedited; but if not, the Cuban government nould have to

begin an investigation and I do not know exactly how long it

would take.

BLAKEY: What was his response?

AZCUE: He began to get irritated.

He also brought a

book of Lanin with him just for show, which I did not like. A

communist does not need a book to show that he's a communist.

He was

somewhat upset already. He thought that we were going to

give him the visa immediately.

BLAKEY: what else did he say?

AZCUE: See, I told him that if he had a visa to go =o

the Soviet Union I could give him an intransit visa to cuba.

He then left to go to the soviet ambassy. I don'e really

ramember whether he went to the soviet embassy that same day

or the following day, but on that same day or the following day

the soviet embassy phoned me: The soviet consul callea me to

relate to me that the papers and documents that oswald presanted

were legitimate. His marriage certificate

stating that he was

married to a soviet rasident and his documents

that showed that

he had been to the soviet Union were agparently in order.

At that time I asked the soviet consul whether they were going

to give him a visa. He said: "No." He said he had to consult

Moscow.

At that time I said: "well, then, I have to consult

Cuba."

---

## Page 128

Eusabio Arcue Intertiew... page 6

BLAKEY: Did Oswald ever make any phone calls between

the Cuban and the soviet ambassy?

AZCUE: Not from the consulate. He visited the soviet

embassy in person.

BLAKEY: Did he ever call the cuban embassy from the

Soviat embassy?

AZCUE: It was the Soviet consul that called

me.

BLAKEY: Could it be possible that he spoke to someone

else in your embassy besides yourself?

AZCUE: Yes, with my sacretary.

BLAKEY: And who is she?

AZCUE: She is a Mexican lady, but someone that the

Cuban government fully trusts and also trusted by the consul

that was going to replace me -- for I was getting ready to

raturn to Cuba. It appears to me that Oswald came back to

surprise me. He came back and told me that he had already been

at the soviet ambassy and that all his gapers

had been considered

legitimate. He thought that when he stated that to me I would

give him a visa. Then I told him: "No, I have to consult

Cuba. "

He then got very upset and called us bureaucrats. He

stated that that was bureaucracy, and at that point I also got

i

angry and asked him to leave. Then he-left.

BLAKEY:

Did he say anything else?

---

## Page 129

.+.

Eusabio

AZCUE

Interview... page 7

AZCUE :

well, you know, he laft mumbling to himsalf.

BLAKEY :

might you be able to remember anything else that

ne might have said?

AZCUE: No, he just got very upset when he did not get

the visa.

BLAKEY: Did he ever give you any indication of why

he wanted to go to the soviet Union?

AZCUE: Yes.

He said he wanted to go to the soviet Union

because he had already been there and that was his place of

residence.

He also stated that his wife was a Soviet citizen --

and becausa he was a member of the Communist Party.

BLAKEY: Did he ever give you any indication of why

he wanted to go to the soviet union through Cuba?

AZCUE: Yes, of course.

He said that he wanted to see

our revolution.

He said he nantad to visit Cuba.

BLAKEY: How long did he indicate that he wanted to stay

in Cuba?

AZCUE:

He said one of two weeks.

BLAKEY: Doesn't the visa application state how long he

wanted to be there?

AZCUE:

A week of 15 days, or something to that effect. Here's

.i

the visa. It says two weeks and: if possible,

more time.

BLAKEY: Could you tell us the name of your secretary?

AZCUE: Yas, of course, Sylvia Duran. Now she is no longer

Sylvia Duran for she's now divorced and Duran was her husband's

name.

She is very well known for she had very serious problems

---

## Page 130

Eusabio Azcua Interview... page 3

with the Mexican authorities on account of this visit. In

fact, she was arzested.

BLAKEY: Did you ever have any conversations with her

about her contact with Lee Harvey Oswaid?

AZCUE: I don't think she had had any contact with him.

She was just there. Mrs. Duran found it very strange that I

had. not given Osaid the visa considering that his wife was a

resident of the Soviet Union and that he, Oswald himself, nad

been a resident oi the soviet Union and that he

had papers

showing that he was a member of the Communist Party. But I

don't think she had any contacts with him.

STOKES: Who also vould have been present in your offica,

Mr. Azcue, on Oswalá's first visit?

AZCUE: The secretary was there and also consul Mirabal

had become familiar nith the papers and documents

at the office.

for he vas getting ready to replace me.

STOKES:

Ñhat is the name of the secretary?

AZCUE: Sylvia Duran.

-.

STOKES: Could we have the full name of the consul that

was going to replace you?

AZCUE: At presant, I do not remember his first name,

but his last name was Mirabal.

STOKES: But at any sate, it was he who replaced you as

consul?

AZCUE: Yes, at the end of November - raally, in the middle

of November when i returned to cuba.

---

## Page 131

Eusebio Azoue Interview... page 9

STOKES: And where is Mr.

Mirabal. now?

AZCUE :

Here in Cuba.

STOKES: You mentioned that oswald brought some papers

with him when he first came to the embassy.

Did they have anything

to do with his membership in the communist Party, you saia?

AZCUE: Yes, I think so. Actually, though, I did not

analyze them very carefully.

STOKES: woull those documents have been made a part of

the application?

AZUE: No, no. They were just like introduction letters --

that kind of thing.

STOKES: 50 then there would be no other papers in

connection with his application other than this application nere?

AZCUE: That was the only one.

STOKES: would there

be any recording of the conversation.

between you and bae Harvey Oswald?

AZCUE: We did not use recorders at that time.

STOKES: could you tell us the name of the soviet consul

whom vou spoka to?

AZCUE: No. The consul was a very good friend of mine -

Pablo Yazco - but I don't think he was in charge of that at the

time. The man I spoke to vas

another whosa name

I really do not

remember now. I just don't recail the name of the consul that

replaced Pablo Yazco.

So many names that just get lost

in your

memory. But in subsequent conversations with the Soviet embassy,

I was

able to learn they thought that Oswald's papers were legitimat

---

## Page 132

Eusebio

Azcue Interrien... page 10

-- his papers and his wife's papers.

He lived in the States.

STOKES: And then Oswald's sacond visit to your ambassy --

who would have been present?

AZCUE: The sacretary - always the sacratary - becausa

she would be the one who would receive visitors and than call me.

STOKES :

How about the consul that replaced you - vould

he have been presant?

AZCUE: I don't think he was there. I do remember that

Sylvia was' there, though. He was only learning. He understood

no English and was not very active at that time.

STOKES:

Did you at some time come into contact with Marina

Oswald?

AZCUE: Marina? You mean the wife? No, no, never..

STOKES: During the time that Oswald was at your ambassy

and was angry, do you recall his saying anything at all about

President Kannedy?

AZCUE: No, not in the least.

DODD: just a couple of questions. (l In looking at this

photograph -- 1i you will take = 100k at it -- I realize

that we are going back a long time -- Do you recall if Lee

Harvey Oswald was dressed in a tie and sweater like that?

AZCUE: No, he was not. Me had.a suit

on.

I even

remember the color of the suit. It was a very light blue Prince

of wales

suit.

DODD: Was he wearing a tie?

---

## Page 133

Eusebig Azcue Intarvien... page 11

AZCUE :

yes,

he did. In Mexico everybody wears a tie

due to the neather.

DODD: Would wearing a sweater in Mexico be

a common thing?

AZCUE: It might be common, but most people normally

use a suit. But I remember that he had a suit on.

DODD: Then you're saying that he would not have been

dressed the way that he's dressed in the picture.

AZCUE: No, that's right.

BLAKEY: Are there any places near your consul that he

could have had this photograph taken?

AZCUE: Yes, there's a place called Iocavaya four or

five blocks from the embassy where he could have taken the

picture. Also, maybe the secretary could have pointed

out to

him a place where he could have gotten the picture. But he

dian! come back the same day; ha came the following day.

DODD: Do you raquire a certain size of photograph for

your documents?

AZCUE: Yes, approximately the size of this one in the

photo in the application. Ne weren't very precise about thesa

applications for they weren't, you know, extremely legal

documents.

i

DODD: And that photo looks like the man that came to

your office?

---

## Page 134

Eusebio Azcue

Intervien...page 12

AZCUE:

Yes. But as time goes by and you nave an idea

of a face, you know, and then... See the impression I got vas

that in person

he was thinner, his nose was more angular, angled, or

aquiline.

His ayebrows vere very straight. He had a very cold

look.

It was a penetrating, cunning way of looking at you.

BLAKEY: Could you give us an estimate of his height?

AZCUE: That's very hard.

He was about this big.

BLAKEY: How tall are you?

AZCUE: I'm over six feet tall. The man vas probably

around five feet six,

five feet seven.

BLAKEY: How much would he have weighed?

AZCUE: I don't know.

He was thin - very thin, with a

very aquiline nose.

BLAKEY: : Maso menos

AZCUE: You know, in an amusament park they touch you and

they can guess exactly now much you weigh, but I don't have

that talent.

DODD : .

Approxinately how old was he?

AZCUE: Oh, around 35 years oid.

DODD:

He looked like ne was 35?

AZCUE:

you know, he looked like he was a 35-year-old man

i

. i

but a 35-vear-oid man ino nad been run through the mill.

he had a sort of wasted lace, you know, he had a gangster looking

face, a hard face.

DODD:

Is it a common experiance to have Americans show

up at your consul?

---

## Page 135

+/....

Eusebio Azcue Interview... page 13

AZCUE :

Yes, there vera many.

DODD:

That wanted to go to the soviet union?

AZCUE: No, no, no, to visit Cuba only. Many,

many came

trying to visit Cuba.

DODD :

So the Oswald case was a rather rare occurrence?

AZCUE: Yes, it was very rare.

DODD: Did you make any special notations due to special

circumstances?

AZCUE: No, because ve just refusad to giva the visa. I

would have taken detailed notes if I had given him the visa.

would have listed the

reasons why I had given him the visa.

But not having given nin the visa, I had nothing to write about.

This was only another one of those many raquests that I knew

would

not be granted. For without contacis in Cuba, ne could not grant

him a visa.

DODD: Did he leave any kind of forwarding address at all

in case the visa came through?

AZCUE: He normally would have left an address if he had

.-.

let my office amiably, but since he didn't...

DODD: But was the visa application in process?

I mean,

in other words, once he had filled out this - once he had stopped

at the soviet embassy, then the request was in.

Then was there

any further action that you two or three weeks later...

AZCUE: We transmitted the applications

to Cuba. And

then the person who was interested in the visa vould call is

periodically -- this was routinely done in every consulate -- asking

for a reply. We constantly received telephone cails from people

---

## Page 136

Eusebio

Azcue Interriaw...gage 11

that had applied for a visa. Sae, they're the ones who

to call for they're the ones that are

Interested.

nave

DODD: But he never did?

AZCUE: Right

DODD: Bureaucratically, once you've submitted an

application, you would presume that the process would continue

whether you receive the call or not?

AZCUE: Of course. Like I said before, everything was

forwarded to Cuba. The Cuban government received the many

copies of the applications. with the picture and the signature.

our government received this application for a visa but they

never sant us an answer.

DODD: What do you mean by it vas never answered?

AZCUE: Ne dia not raceive a reply for his visa from

the Cuban government.

DODD: Going back to the physical appearance of Lee

Harvey Oswald, apart from naving a receding nairline, vas there

any gray in Lee Harvey Oswald's hair?

AZCUE: you know, he had blond hair. It's all very

interesting. You see, this picture I really did not study

carefully. The picture was

taken by the secretary and she

stapled it to the application,

and ve would

send the whole

thing to cuba.

---

## Page 137

Eusebio Azcue Interview... page 15

BLAKEY: But it is your memory that this picture portrays

the person that you saw.

, AZCUE: The truth of the matter is that I remember him

differently. I remember him thinner, but it is possible that it

was the same person because pictures are never perfact. The

impression that I have is that he was a very thin man with a

very hard face -- a tough expression.

PREYER: The first time that he came to your embassy did

he ask for an intransit visa or just a visa to Cuba?

AZCUE: He did not ask for an intransit visa because

people are not normally familiar nith this process. But ne

dia say that he wantad it to go on to russia.

PREYER: On his next visit when he brought the photos, I

understand that he asked now long it would take for the Cuban

visa at that time and you told him that if he knew someone in

Cuba it vould be quicker. So then did you give him any dates

as to how long it would take if he did

not know anyone in Cuba?

AZCUE: No, because I.

could not make any commitnents.

PREYER: Then he lait to go to the USSR embassy. How

far apart are the two embassies in distance?

AZCUE: Ihree or four blocks.

PREVER: Then presumably he could have

AZCUE: Yes, of coursa, it was the only way.

walked there?

PREYER: Then did you receive a call shortly after that

from the soviet embassy?

---

## Page 138

Eusebio Azcue Interview... page 16

AZCUE: No, no, you see, it is likely that the interview

of the soviet consul took some time.

In fact, I believe that it

was the following day that he came back to see me. He may

possibly have gone to the soviet embassy on the same day, but

it was only after the phone call from the Soviet ambassy that

oswald visited the Cuban embassy again. It is known that he

went to the Soviet embassy and that the Soviet embassy called me,

but I think that this all happened the following day.

PREYER: And the soviet embassy told you that they rould

have to call Moscow?

AZCUE: Yes. They said that they could not grant him a

visa without consulting Moscow first.

PREYER: And then you told Oswaid that?

AZCUE: when Oswald

came to the Cuban embassy then, I also

told him that I sould not give him a visa and that if the

Soviet embassy had to consult Moscow, I had to consult cuba.

PREYER: Did he ask now long it would taka?

AZCUE: Yes.

He asked that quite often, usually to mrs.

Duran.. You know, everybody asks that. And our answer is alnays

the same -- depending on your relations and friends and

contacts in Cuba because they can expedite the process.

PREYER: Did you or the soviet ambassy

ever give him an

approximate time that it would take for him to get the visa --

that it would be a long time, or that it would be three weeks?

---

## Page 139

Eusebio Aacue Intervien... page 1?

AZCUE: NO, nO.

PREYER: I ask you this becausa should it be a relatively

short period of time that he would wait there for the isa. But

then you say you do not recall any specific...

AZCUE: I think that

I saw a deliberate purposa in hin

to get the visa from us. What he was interested

in was getting

the visa from the Cuban government immediately.

DODD: You would not have made any copies of the documentation

that he showed you of the fair Play For Cuba Committee or his

membership in the United States Communist Party?

AZCUE: I can never take away these papers from people.

They are only for tham to show us as examples. But it's the same

at the soviet ambassy. They take data on the passport just lika

we took data here from his passport. I would take notes from

documents

like a passport and then return the passport to hin --.

never even retain them for a while.

BLAKEY: Did you examine the passport?

AZCUE: It is very likely - yes.

BLAKEY: Would you have looked at the photograph or the

passport?

AZCUE :

Yes, sure, you always look at them, but it is just

;

a quick glanca.

BLAKEY: Nould you have noticed that the person you saw

before yourself was different from the person's photograph on

the passport?

---

## Page 140

Busabio Azque Intertian... page 13

AZCUE:

Well, I'll tell you. The person that I found

different was the person that came to the embassy and toid me

he was Oswald and the person that I later saw on TV when he was

assassinated at that Dallas police station. At that point, it

looked lika two different people.

BLAKEY: When you saw the passport, did you see any

difference between the picture in the passport and the person

standing in front of you?

AZCUE: No, no. Normally I'm not a very analytical

person. You see, it's usually the secretary that deals with

all these matters. But the difference that I noted was between

the man who came to the consulate and the one that was assassinateá.

BLAKEY: Mr. Azcue, let me show you a book of photographs

which is the JEK exhibit of photographs. The book will contain

a number of photographs. Would you look in each page slowly and.

study each face and determine whether you can recognize any of

the

persons there. Please take your time. Do not l00! for

any one particular person. Just tell us if you recognize any of

ite photos.

AT THIS POINT, THE CUBAN GOVERNMENT ASKED

FOR A

FIVE-MINUTE RECESS SO THAT MR. AZCUE COULD. LOOK AT

THE PHOTOS CAREFULLY. FOR THE RECORD, WHEN THE SESSION

WAS RESUMED, THE SAME PEOPLE WERE PRESENT. APPROXIMATELY

15 MINUTES PASSED AS A RECESS IN WHICH MR. AZCUE HAS ICORED

THROUGH THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

---

## Page 141

Eusebio Azcue Interview... page 19

BLAKEY: Would you tell us which, if any, of the photo-

graphs are familiar to you?

AZCUE: No. 57 represents Oswald, but the Oswald

assassinated. But frankly, the idea that's in my mind of

Oswald - the one that I saw at the consulate - is not so

similar to this photo. I recognize him because I remember the

television clips shown on of him when he was killed. If I had

not seen those clios on television, I would not have recognized

him as the Lee Harvey Oswald for the memories that I have oi

Oswald are similar to what appear on thesa photographs. Pictures

resemble the

man but I insist that his nose is more aquiline,

that his eyelashes were straighter, his look was more cold,

and his cheeks saemed older - that of an older man. His cheeks

were sunken like that of an older man; also nuch older than this

photo. This man in the photo rould be at the most 30 years old

and' the man I saw in the consulate was 35, 36, 37; you know, this

man in the picture is much younger. You sae, it was many years

ago, so - out I remember, Isaw the photo, the Oswald that had

been assassinated. I did not recognize him as the same man that

visited me at the embassy - so different features - even a short

time - had only been a few

months, from september to December.

BLAKEY: Can you remember the first time that you sai

Oswald after the assassination?

was it on TV?"

---

## Page 142

Eusedio Azcue Interrien... page 20

AZCUE: Yes, it was on IV:

BLAKEY: Did you also

see his photograph in the newspapers?

AZCUE: Yes, in some magazines.

BLAKEY: You said that you did not recognize the man when

you saw him in the photos and on IV?

AZCUE: That is correct.

I noticed some differences.

I said: "Damn, this is not the man. This does not look like

the man who went to my oifice."

BLAKEY: Did you bring that difference to

the attention

or anyone else?

AZCUE :

Yes, I did - with comrades, you know, from the

ministry.

BLAKEY: Did you write any memoranda?

AZCUE: No, because such citings are usually very subjective.

And they were just quick glances and could be inaccurate,

especially those that I saw on tV.

BLAKEY:

What about those in the newspaper?

AZCUE: Those were not very clear. A clearer one was the

film clip on TV when Oswald was killed at the Dallas police

station. He makes a gesture of pain where ne's got gleaming

eyes, where he seemed to be younger and fatter

than the man

that had come to see me. I made it known to my superiors, but

it was a very subjective thing, you know. The man that I saw

on TV did not resemble the man that I had seen in my office.

---

## Page 143

Eusabio Azcue Interview... page 21

BLAKEY: And what conclusion, it any, did you draw. from

that?

AZCUE: It was something that I saw and then said -

problem is that you cannot really rely on my fast glance or a

fast glance of a picture when a person is being killed.

immediataly recognized that that was not the man that I had seen

in the embassy.

If it is true or

not, I cannot really say for

certain, but it seemed to me it was not the same man.

BLAKEY: Do you think that if you saw a photo of the man

who was in your consulate that you would recognize it now?

AZCUE: I think yes - yes, yes, yes.

Yes, I think so.

I think it's only a matter of, you know, angles; so

I was

seeing

the man face to

face. And he was furious. But I also nas

Eurious.. Thus the face I saw

was one that was bothered and hard -

tough - not the same face that I saw on this man here in the

photograph. This man has

a soft face, even to his death. Even

in his death he nas a passive look. It's a subjective opinion.

Let me tell you. Months later, or maybe years later, I heard

the mayor of New Orleans...

BLAKEY: You mean the prosecutor in New Orleans, Garrison.

AZCUE: Yes, that's right, Garrison. He began an

investigation and he said there were two Oswalds.

Then my

theory was, you know, reaffirmed. That gave credence to my

theory that the man that was assassinated and the man that

visited me were different persons. These are just subjective

appraisals. I've got them.

---

## Page 144

Eusabio Azcue Interview... page 22

BLAKEY: President Castro, then Premier Castro made a

speech a couple of days after the assassination in which ne in-

dicated that he had had a contact with the Cuban Embassy in Mexico

City. Do you recall that contact?

AZCUE: Yes, I. do because he had had contact with me and

only with me.

The contact that I'm

talking about is Oswald's

contact only with me.

LOPEZ: Professor Blakey is referring to contact of Fidel

with the Cuban Embassy. •

AZCUE: Oh, I understand, at that time I made some declara-

tions just like I am making them now. The exception of the dual

Oswald theory becausa of not seeing the photographs on television.

BLAKEY: Did you speak directly with the President?

AZCUE: No, I spoka to the man in charge of the Ministry.

It was the guy in charge of the Ministry of Foreign relations,

Foreign Affairs.

BLAKEY: 3y what medium did you talk to him?

AZCUE: I spoke to him in person.

BAKEY: Did you go from Mexico to Havana?

AZCUE: No, no, I had already come to Havana.

I was in

Havana. See, I came to Havana from Mexico on November 18th and

¡ on the 22nd was Kennedy's death. So immediately, as soon as I

saw the name I remembered. So at the Ministry'oe foreign Astairs

I said: "This man requested a visa from me.". So then I had to

make declarations, very exhaustive declarations, where I stated

the same thing that I said now.

---

## Page 145

Eusebio Azcue Interview... page 23

BLAKEY: as that report or declaration reduced to

writing at that time?

AZCUE: I think so.

There was no stenographer there,

but it may have been taped.

BLAKEY (then referring himself to the Cuban officials):

would it be possible for you to furnish us with a copy of that

declaration if that is available?

VILLA: We have no recordings or written declarations

about that declaration that - written reports about the

declaration that Mr. Azcue made. It is possible that it exists,

but we have not located it as of yet.

BLAKEY (to ME. Azcue): Can you recall the person to

whom the declaration was made?

AZCUE: Yes. It was the person in charge of the ministry

of, you know, the interior - foreign relations, foreign affairs..

LOPEZ: What was his name?

AZCUE: Yes, it was Manuel Piniero, Comrade Manuel

Piniero.

BLAKEY: (Quote) In an interview, July 1967, with a British

journalist, Homer Clark, Castro said that Oswald came to the

Cuban consulate twice, each time for approximately 15 minutes.

i

for us." He was

"The first time I was told he wanted to work

asked to explain, but he wouldn't. He would not go into details.

The

second time he said that he wanted to free Cuba from Imperialism

Then he said something like: "Someone ought to shoot that

---

## Page 146

Eusebio Azcue Interview... page 24

President Kannedy." Then Oswald said land this is exactly how

it was reported to me): "Maybe I will try to do it."

you comment on this statement?

would

---

## Page 147

code:

1- Azcue

3-Blakey

C-Cornwell

I-Lopez

S-Chairman Stokes

P-Congressman Preyer

D-Congressman Dodd

A: I do not believe the commander could have said such a thing.

I mean there was no motive to say that, because this ali

occurred before the assassination of Kennedy. It was a

routine application, and Oswald only had to deal with me,

B:

nobody else.

Perhaps I mis-conveyed the information. The journalist is not

indicating that Premiar Castro, himsalf, overheard this. The

journalist is indicating that

these words are attributed to

Mr. Oswald were heard by whomever dealt with Oswald in Mexico.

A: Oh! I'm sorry. Nell, I don't think oswald said that. .

That's

ridiculous. A person who has the mission to

assassinate the

President would not publicize it. That is ridiculous.

3: Then you did not overhear him say this?

A: No. Never.

3: Then the words that are reported here were not overheard oy

You?

7:

He never presented himself as having anything to offer.

3: Did the person who appearedat the embassy say anything like

this?

Never. That I would remember quite well. For that would have

been of importance if he wanted to work with us, I would have

sent the information to. Cuba. And, as you know, that does not

appear in the information I sent them. I would have registared

that, that he wanted to work for us. That all happened in

September.

I would have listed it on the application, "This

person vants to work for us"

---

## Page 148

Azcue - Tape Two - Page ?

1: Do you speak Russian?

A: No.

B: Did anybody in the office at that time speak Russian?

A: No.

B: Then no member of the Cuban Consulate in 1963 spoke Russian?

A: That is correct. Nowdays probably many Cubans speak Russian.

3: Did you have any telephones at the Embassy that could be used

by the public?

A: No. The only telephones that could be used were those in our

offices.

B: Could you describe to us the route that Oswald would have had

to have taken to get into your office?

7: If you want I will draw a schematic plan for you.

3: Do it right here.

(By right here, professor Blakey means on one of the back

pages of the questionnaire that was presented to the Cuban

government, in copy number 1.)

. 3:

For the record, we will stop for about two minutes, while Mr.

Azcue makes the drawing.

, We are back on the racord. Mr.

Azcue has prepared a drawing. Will you explain it to us,

please, Mr. Azcue?

A: This is the entrance.

B: He is pointing to the right hand side.of the

drawing.

A: These are the streets.

3: Could you tell us some names of the streets, please?

A: The one on the right is Francisco Marcos Street.

The other

one I cannot recall right now.

---

## Page 149

Azcue - Tape Tro - Page 3

3: MI. Azcue, may

I ask that when you refar to the drawing, that.

you may racail that you are being recorded, that you speak

in such a way that someone who is hearing the recording may

be able to follow what you are saying.

A: Fine. The entrance is in a corner between two streets. It

is a large broad entrance, and we have a hall immediately

following the entrance, which is the waiting room for visitors.

The second part would be the consulate where the secretary

would be sitting. There is a wall there made of wood and

glass, the lower section made of wood, and the top section

made of glass.

That's the wall that the secretary would

be looking into the waiting room and outside into the street,

from where she sat. The secretary would be sitting at this

point in the middle. Now around her would be furniture and

desks. The secretary can see the entrance. She is in the

proper position and that whole wall is made of glass, and

everyone who comes, you know, she can see whether they are

coming in alone or whether they are coming in accompanied.

She receives the company at this soot here.. The person rould

normally come in and say that they have come

to apply for a

visa, and then

she brings the person in to this soot. If there

is any problem, she would call me, and I would come out of my

i

office.

3 :

would she call you personally, or vould she call you on the

phone?

A:

No, no. she would call me personally. Ne are very close.

She

would probably get up and call me, however,. if it is a matter

that is not routine, something that is different from the

---

## Page 150

Azcue - Tape Two - Page 4

ordinary. You sae in this casa it was not a routine matter,

for he wanted to expedita the process.

3: Aiter you had a conversation with oswald, or when you had

the conversation, would you point on the drawing to where you

were standing?

A: Certainly. I would be here and he would be there.

B: Would you tell me where the phones are in each office?

A: Certainly: There was a telephone in this office, the secre-

tary's office, at this spot and also a telephone in my office

at this spot. I also had an intercom, but I did not normally

use the intercom. I came out through this door and I asked him

to get out at this point, while we were standing here. I

told him to get out now.

3: Would it have been possible for him to have usad your tele-

phone?

A: No.

You see normally if somebody asks whether they can usa

our phone, we say sure, go ahead. But I rememoer that he did

not ask me whether ne could use our phone.

3: Io your knowledge, did anyone else in your office, Mrs. Duran,

(permit) Oswald to make a phone call from your Consulate?

A: It could have happened, yes. But there was no reason.

she wanted to authorize a phone call she could

it, but there

was no reason to.

•ч..

B: Did you ever have any conversations with her,

in which she

indicated that she could have done it?

A: No. Never.

I met her again two years after the assassination,

in November of 1965, and she nas a very good friend of mine.

---

## Page 151

Azcue

- Tape Iwo - Page 5

B: Did you discuss

this?

A: Yes, of course. She told me about all her problems with tha

Mexican authorities. They had arrested her, they had put

ner picture on the front pages of the newspapers, that there

was a tremendous scandal, you know, involving her.

B: Did she discuss with you the confrontation that she had with

Oswald?

A: Of course.

The same thing that happened to me. It had only

been two years and we remembered perfectly well. You see,

the Mexican authorities wanted to implicate her, for you see,

since she was Mexican, even though she was Mexican she had no

diplomatic privileges, and you see, they arrested

her and they

wanted to implicate her and they even treated her very badly.

She defended

herself though. She bit peopla and she kicked

people and it was a very, very public thing, you know. A

public scandal in the

newspapers. They tried to coerce her.

3: In those discussions that

you nad with her then, did she say

anything about her memory in reference to the person no vas

there, as opposed to the person that she saw on IV?

A: I really do not remember 1f

ve discussad that. It's very

likely that I spoke about that. I really do not remember it,

because more than anything our conversation sonsisted of Mis.

Duran telling me about her problems vith the Mexican authorities.

C: Were all of the man's visits, whoever he was, during the normal

working hours? You know, from 10 to 2?

---

## Page 152

AZCue - Tape Iwo - Page 5

i: Yes, yes, We alvays closed at 2 in the alternoon and always

opened at 10 A.M.

C: Without exceptions?

A: Yes, that's true.

Possibly though somebody could contact us

by phone.

C: would that routine also cover Saturdays and Sundays?

A: Saturdays, yes. Sundays, no.

C: Trying to be as careful as possible about the dates, would it

have been consistent of inconsistent in the operating procedures

of your Embassy for the secretary to fill out the visa applica-

tions for Mr. Oswald on a first visit there, even though he

did

not bring. the picture?

A: It is not likely. It could be, but it's just not likely.

FOr

on the first day the person is informed that he has got to have

a passport,

photos, and etcetera.

C: The day on which you

finally told the man to leave, do you

remember if that transpired on the day that he filled out the

visa, one day after he had filled out the visa, or two days

after he had filled out the visa?

A: It was probably a day after he filled out the visa application,

or maybe two days after he filled out the application. You see,

Mr. Oswald had to go to the Soviet Embassy and I do not feel

that it is very easy to go to the soviet Embássy and resolve the

problem quickly, then return to the Cuban Embassy. He probably

came to our Embassy on the 27th of september and on the 28th

he probably went

to the soviet ambassy, and he probably returned

to the Cuban Embassy on the 29th. And it is on the 28th that

the soviet Embassy probably called me. That is probably the

---

## Page 153

Azcue - Tape Ivo - Page 7

most logical (thing), but it didn't necessarily have to occur

that way. It is though the most logical.

C: This document was presented to us by the Cuban government

yesterday. It is a letter dated October the 15th, 1963, and

it appears on page 12 of the book that the Cuban government

handed over to the Committee. Do you recall the letter?

A:

Yes, this is a routine letter.

And the Cubans received the

applications, that is, when they receive a request from a

North American citizen, he has to call us by telephone, prepaid,

as often as possible to check wether his visa nas

been

accepted, his visa application has been accepted.

He should

call us though only when he has the visa from the Soviet Union.

C: Were you still in Mexico on this date?

A: Yes, of course. Ah, now that I look at the letter I remember

the full name of the consul that was going to take my place.

His name was

Alfredo Mirabal.

C: Could you tell us the address to Mr. Mirabal?

A: I was already handing the whole office to him.

I was teaching

him all the procedures.

...

C: But you were, at any rate, still there when this letter came

in?

4: Yes, of course. But this is a routine letter. I did not even

need this letter. I mean, whenever the Soviét Embassy notified

us that the Soviet government had authorized a visa, then I

also; the Cuban government could authorize a visa.

C: Do you know whether or not any action was taken upon

receipt of this letter?

---

## Page 154

Azcue - Tape 2 - Page 3

A: Ne just filed it, that's it.

This is only a notice, this

letter. It has no implications whatsoever.

C: Would you have had a forwarding address for Mr. Oswald on October

15th, and if so, would you have forwarded this letter to him?

A: No, I did not have a forvarding address, but even if I had

had one I would not have forwarded the letter for, iirst he

would have needed the soviet visa, and then we could have

acted.

C: If you would once again look at the visa application, Document

#779, will you estimate how old you think that man in the

picture is?

A: Well, I would say he's about 28 to 30. But the man I rememoer

as having visited the Embassy was over thirty-five years old.

It is also interesting I haven't seen this picture, you know,

in all these years. It's the first time that I see this picture,

in a long, long time, but yet the memory I have of that man

that went to the Consulate differs from this photo.

S: Could I ask you again now long MI. Oswald remained in your

office on his first visit there?

A: I would say ten or fifteen minutes at the most. That first

visit is always very quick. We let them know exactly what

they need - a passport, a photograph, and then they ask us

how long will it take to process the matter, and etcetera.

The

first visit always consists of only an interchange of ideas,

an interchange of information.

S:

On the second time, was he there longer?

A:' Yes, because he had to wait for the visa application to be

---

## Page 155

Azcye - Tape Two - Page 9

S :

filled out. He had to wait for the application to be typed.

So how long would he have been there on the second occasion?

•A: Oh, approximately fifteen minutes. He had no reason to remain

there any longer. You see, he doesn't spend a lot of time with

me.

It is one of those routine, you know, matters that a

secretary usually handles. You see he spent a very short time

with me on that sacond visit becausa he came back with the

impression that after his conversation at the Soviet Embassy

everything would be expeditiously handled. But then I had to

explain to him that that was not so. You see, even though,

I had to tell him that even though his papers were legitimate

papers, that if the soviet Union had to consult Moscow, then I

ought to explain to him that he nad to wait. And then at that

point he got angry, then I threw him out..

S: So then how long would that argument between the two of you

have taken?

A: I cannot calculata it for you. But it's one of those conversa-

tions that transpires quickly. well, he would have spent at

most ten

minutes with me and possibly another five minutes with

the secretary before she called me into the office. See, what

I had to explain to him could be done very quickly, and you see,

he got offensive and I threw him out.

S: Mr. Azcue, on the application which is signed,

in which everyone

purports that it is Lee Harvey Oswald's signature, it's also a

signature lower than Mr. Oswald's signature and is done in green

ink. Nould you recognize that signature?

A: I think that this signature may have

been out on the application

once it arrived in Havana,

for I do not recognize it as one of

---

## Page 156

Azcue - Tape Two. - Page 10

the signatures from our Cuban Embassy in Mexico City.

Can anybody here make out what that signature says?

Cuban officials:

No, we've already concluded that it's illegible.

A: Does anybody recognize it as Mrs. Duran's signature?

Cuban officials:

No.

we think it is illegible.

A: It is not my signature.

My signature is very clear. You can

make out my name.

3: Will you write vour signature here for us, Mr. Azcue?

A: Of coursa. Here's my signature. You can read my name here.

Azcue, A-Z-C-U-E. I've written it on the same page that I drew

the schematic of the Cuban Embassy before.

S: MI. Azcue, on this visa application, there is a saction entitled

"observations"

• Will you read that saction so that I may ask you

a question about it?

A: Of course. This is exactly what I was talking about before.

It says that he exhibited those cartain documents. It says that he

showed us papers

stating that he was a member of the Communist Part

Of America, and

secretary of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee,

New Orleans.

He was in the Soviet Union from October 1959 until

June 9, 1962, that there he got marriad with a soviet citizen...

social documents that accredit him as a member of the two

organizations previously mentioned, and alsoja wedding certifi-

es

cate.

He presented himself in front of the Soviet Embassy,

asking

that his visa be sant to the Cuban Embassy. This is very

interesting, because you see here it seems like we're going to

give him the visa. It seems like whoever wrote this thought

that we were going to give him the visa. There's also a small

---

## Page 157

Azcue - Tape Two - Page 11

difference hare, for we called the Soviet Embassy, it says

here, and what we understand, what I understand that occurred

NaS

that we called the Soviat Embassy and

in fact they called

us.

Maybe a secretary called the Soviet Embassy and then the

Soviet Embassy called me, that's

possible. I recall

that

when they called us they told us that they would first have to

get authorization. What I do not recall is that they said it

would take about four months, and it states

so here in the

observations section of the application.

S: With reference to this application, when the secretary typed

this up, who would have made this observation, who would have been

in her presence, who would have dictated it to her?

A: If you will allow me, the secretary would only type the

information above the observation section in front of the

applicant.

The other material, thus the sacretary probably

did it after Mr. Oswald left.

S :

So that none of the information that appears on this application

was taken directly by you?

A: That is correct. It is not my job. It is not the consul's

job; it is the secretary's job. This is a routine matter that

has no importance, for the consul to be the one to do it.

This information is sent to Cuba and then it is studied there.

S: Was there more than, was Mrs. Duran the only

secretary in the

office, or was there more than one secretary

there?

A :

NO.

Mrs. Duran was the only one.

So then in the total office, there was just yourself, Mrs.

Duran and the Consul who was going to replace you, Mirabal.

That's correct?

---

## Page 158

Azcue - Tape Two - Page 12

A: Yes, that's correct.

S: Doesn't it also appear in the application that he wishes to

leave for Cuba on September 30th?

A: Um, I, oh, yes, here it is.

It says "wishing to depart for

Cuba on Saptamber 30th". That is correct.

S: If the section "observations" there, someone states that we called:

Soviet Embassy, but yet your best recollection is that the

Soviet Embassy called you, is that correct?

A: Both things might be true. It could happen that the secretary

called the Soviet Embassy, and then the Soviet Embassy

called me back. What I recall is that the Embassy called me

back.

S: After the assassination of President Kennedy, the name Lee Harvey

Oswald became very important. And as a result of that you

brought all of the facts

that you knew to the Cuban government.

A: Well, it, of course, is very important to the Cuban government.

S: Now, after you talked to

the man from the Ministry about

this, what transpired? Was it followed up?

A: Let me explain this to you... I contacted the Ministry of foreign

Relations, Foreign Affairs, which was my ministry and there I

spoke with Nilo Otero,

and Raul Roa

stepped in for

a minute and then they said "Nait a minute. Lat us call the

i

Ministry of Intarior." Then they saw the importance of the

matter and they took care of it.

S :

was there a stenographer there at that time?

A :

No, there was not. The interview was a personal interview

between myself and the Commandante, and I do not recall that there

was a stenographer present.

---

## Page 159

Azcue - Tape Two - Page 13

Have you recalled now, later on, that there might have been

a stenographer present?

A: No, never. Nhat I said there, because of the importance

it had, Mr. Pinero, you know, who raised about eighty questions,

many more than what you've asked me so far today.

S: Do you recall signing a statement after you had given them a

declaration?

A: No. No. It was a very informal thing.

we drank coffee three

or four times.

C: One final question, what is the date stamped in the middle of

the page, in blue?

October 10, 1953?

• .'•"•

A: It is probably ours, but it seems very lata because from

September 27th until October 10th, thirteen days transpired,

and I remember that my office was always up to date and, you

see, the applications always left on the next mail delivery,

mail schedule which would never take more than three or four

days, so I think that the date stamped on this visa vas the

date that it was

received here in Cuba. I will tell you, it

never took so long to get an application out. Ne would do that

immediately, do it immediately. It was just a routine matter.

I had already seen that date before and it saemed very rare

to me..

It would never take me thirteen days.

Three or four

days, maybe, but never thirteen.

3: I have only a couple of more questions. Would it be normal

procedure for the person who fills out the observation section

to sign their name in the lower right hand corner.

A :

Yes,

but the problem is that that signature does not corres-

pond to any of the people that worked at the office there.

---

## Page 160

Azcue - Tape Two - Page I1

It could have been

signed by the sacretary, but the signature

does not correspond. It could have been signed by Mirabal or

myself. Once again the signature does not correspond. But

the signature would not be necessary for the Consulate stamp

is already on it.

B: Earlier you indicated that there came a time, you heard of

an investigation

in New Orleans, Jim Garrison. It that time,

you recalled that you had the same theory that the person

might not be the same. Did you talk with anyone about that,

at that time?

A: Yes. I did, but not officially to anybody. I spoke with

Nilo, ...

who was the director of the Ministry of Foreign

Afiairs, and I also remembered that I spoke to Lachuga.

3: Could you give us their full names?

A: Yes. Nilo Otero.

3: Do you know if he took any measures after that conversation?

A: Mr. Otero told me that he would report it to those people

that could do something about it.

3: Io your knowledge, do you know le ne did so?

A: As far as I know, I think so. But you know, what I was saying

was so subjective, because I could not guarantee that I was

right. You see, since it was such a subjective statement,

you

know, they probably took it with a grain of salt.

B: Lat me direct your attention back in time to the period when

the Narren Commission was operating in the United States. Did

anyone speak to you at that time about any of these matters?

This would have been from December of '63 through September of

'64.

---

## Page 161

Azcue - Tape Iwo - Page 15

A: Yes, I'n sure they did, but not officially. I mean, Fidel's

speech was just the definitive thing...expressed to the vorla

very clearly the whole situation that, you know, had occurred

to us, insuring, you know, our position and even included the

fight that I had with Oswald. Fidel said all this, you know,

in his speech. There was nothing more to say.

B: I cannot at this time think of anything more to ask you. I'm

sure that I will as soon as we say goodbye. I hope that you

will permit me, if I have second thoughts, to forward them to

you through your government.

A: It will be my pleasure.

D: One last question. After we said that we're finished, now I have

another question. I'm sorry. You told us when you started to

speak to us that you had gone over the story many times. You

tell us that you told the story to Mr. Piniero. Who else have

you reported this story to?

A: Officially, under the direction of the Ministry of Foreign

Affairs and also with Mr. Piniero. That is officially. Premier

Fidel got all the details that I could remember and by that

time everything that I knew, the cuban government knew. At that

time I could remember everything that had transpired.

D: Have you been spoken to by any reporters, you know, American

reporters, or anything like that?

A: No, never. I never would have authorized any interview with me.

D: But, I presume that the reason you have talked about this

several times, is because of your private conversations?

A :

yes,

sir. The topic of conversation arosa whenever we talkad

about people trying to involvé us or implicate us in the

---

## Page 162

Azcue - Tape IWo - Page 16

" .

assassination.

B: Did you have à chance to review earlier, before you talked

to us today, the report that you had made to the government

in 1963?

A: No, never. There was an interview, I was interviewed by our

Consul in Washington, Mr. Escartin,

two months ago.

I said the same thing that I am telling you now.

It is all

I know. That's all I remember. There may be different words

used by me, but same story.

B: Let me direct your attention to photo number 60, in the book,

in the photograph book. Do you know that individual?

A: NO.

B: Is the face familiar at all?

A: No.

It's not.

S: MI. Azcue, on behalf of our. Committee, I want to express our

thanks for having appeared here this afternoon, having subjected

yourself to our questions.

You have been most patient with

us.

You have indeed been helpful to us in our investigation

and we certainly appreciate your taking the time to be here.

A: Many thanks. But I also feel that you can be very beneficial

to us, for you can clarify once and for all, for you can clarify

the facts of the assassination, surrounding the assassination

once and for all.

S: That's exactly why we are here and why we asked you to be our

witness.

Thank you.

---

## Page 163

KENNEDY

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

Name Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Address

Date

August 25; '78Time_ 3:20

Place

Interview:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Interpreter:

First, let me thank you for allowing us to

visit with you again Senor Azcue.

You are welcome.

For the record let me note the date is August

25 and the time is approximately 3:20 and we

are in Hotel Rivera and present are: from the

American Delegation, Congressman Richard Preyer,

G. Robert Blakey, Edward Lopez. Could I ask

if the Cuban Delegation would identify themselves?

from the Minister of

, from

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Foreign Affairs, Captain

the Minister of Interior, and

from Foreign Relations, and Mr.

Mr. Azcue do you object if we tape this

conversation?

Azcue.

NO.

Would you state for the record your full name please.

Interviewer Signature

Typed Signature G. Robert Blakey, Edwin Lopez

Date transcribed

By :

August 30.19

CS

Form #4-.

---

## Page 164

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

AZcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Eusebio Azcue Lopez.

And your date and place of birth.

August 15, 1911

I'm sure you recall Mr. Azcue that

we previously

interviewed you on April 1, 1978. What we would

like to do this time is ask you a few additional

questions and we have brought from the United

States some pictures with the hope that you might

be able to identify some people. But before going

to the pictures, I wonder if I could ask you some

general questions about the procedures that were

followed in the Cuban Consulate in the processing

of Visa applications.

Um huh.

Who normally handled the visa applications?

The secretary--Silvia Durante--the secretary.

On what occasions would you handle one person?

When the applicant made a request to meet me

personally because of any particular problem.

Would there be any occasion in which a security

officer associated with the Consulate would

become involved in the visa application?

Never. That never happens.

I take it then it was the custom

so before

either the Cuban Consulate or the secretary

of the Consulate to handle the visa applications?

---

## Page 165

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 3

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

That is the common practice.

You testified or indicated to us in your

last conversation that you were recalled to

Cuba in the latter part of November.

Yes.

After the assassination of President Kennedy

on November 22, did an occasion arise where

you had conversations with any of the people

who had been stationed in Mexico City?

No, they

Mexico.

Did you ever have a conversation with Ms.

Duran after the assassination?

No. She

?

She lived in

Mexico.

Did you ever meet her after November of '63?

Two years later.

And at that occasion did you have an opportunity

to discuss the assassination?

No, I did not.

She told me about her problems

in Mexico with the Mexican police. But I was

going to Canada, I was in Mexico, on a transit

so I didn't have much time to speak with her.

Did you discuss with her at that time your feeling

that you relate to us on our last visit?

---

## Page 166

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 4

AZCUe :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

I don't remember but I don't think so, because

we had a very short talk and I think it was

mostly about the problems she had had with

the Mexican police.

Did you ever--have you seen her since that

time?

No.

Have you been in correspondence with her?

No.

Have you had any telephone conversations with

her?

No.

The Warren Commission Report indicates that

Ms. Duran told the Mexican police that she

called the Russian Consulate to inquire about

Lee Harvey Oswald's visit. You indicated to

us during our last visit that it was your

memory that you called the Russian Consulate

personally.

I never said that I had personally called the

Russian Consulate. My recollection was that

I thought that the Russian Counselor had called

me.

Because his telephone call was passed to me.

---

## Page 167

Interview:

Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 5

Blakey:

AZCUe :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

It is likely that it was Silvia Durante who

called the Council and then gave the phone

call to me. What I said was that it was

strange that we had no reason to get concerned

about that problem. That was Oswald's problem

not ours. So I always thought that the Russian

Councilman had phoned me because I was given

the communication and talked to the Russian

counselor over the phone so I thought he was

calling me. I didn't know.

You talked to him personally, is that correct?

Yes I did.

I think you related to us in our last conversation

what that was about, so let me move on to another

matter.

Yes.

The next matter that I want to bring up with

you is very delicate and I hope that you will:

understand that I am not asking these questions

without serious reason. It is only because

information has been brought to our attention

that we have not evaluated, indeed

seek to

evaluate it by speaking to you and some other

people here in Cuba. And it deals with Ms. Durante

---

## Page 168

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 6

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

We are concerned to make a judgement about

her character. Not only for speaking the

truth

but also in her personal relations.

It is based on information that has been

brought to our attention about her personal

life and its possible relation to Lee Harvey

Oswald that I ask

you these questions.

Yes.

In 1963 was Silvia Duran married?

Yes, she was. Duran's name comes from her

husband who was Horatio Duran.

Did she have a reputation at the Cuban Embassy

for being unfaithful to her husband?

Not that I know. I

never heard anything in

that regard.

Of course, we do not care about

what people do in their personal life. She

had a very decent behavior. She had a child, a

girl. Her husband used to come to the consulate

very often to pick her up in his car. Their

relation seemed to be very normal.

Have rumors ever been brought to your attention

that she may have had a love affair

with Lee

Harvey Oswald?

---

## Page 169

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page

7

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey :

Azcue :

Blakey:

I met him--we met him three times, both me

and Silvia Duran. That gentleman never came

back. I think she would have told me anything

because she was perfectly loyal to me.

She

would have pointed to any aspect of any topic

she would have had with him. And she left

the Consulate really very late to have any

date and she used to live very close to the

Consulate. And her husband used to come for

her almost every day. And she worked in the

Consulate from very early in the morning til

very late in the evening. We had lunch very

close to the place where the Consulate was

located?

How did she

get home?

Mostly her husband used to come in the car to

pick her up.

Did anyone else ever pick her up?

Never. She had very few relations. She used

to have relations mostly with us and with

elements that were sympathetic to us.

Has it ever been brought to your attention that

Silvia Duran may have introduced Lee Harvey

Oswald to students at the National University

in Mexico City?

---

## Page 170

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 8

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey :

AZcue:

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

AZCue :

No, never. And I would have opposed to anything

like that because I never liked the personality

of that gentleman--I felt he was

an

enemy.

Did you ever socialize with the Durans?

Yes I did. They used to have many parties and

we used to join. them for dinner and for talks.

?

with his husband.

Were there any parties held that September

weekend?

I don't remember.

Is it possible that there could have been a

party that weekend?

I remember that they gave me a party--as a

farewell party, but it wasn't the beginning

of November I think.

We are obviously principally concerned about

September 26, 27, 28, 29,30.

If she gave any, party I did not attend.

Did you have any conversations with anyone else

that would lead you to believe that there might

have been a party at her house at that time?

I don't remember. It is impossible

for me to

remember.

---

## Page 171

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

page

9

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

AZcue :

Is it possible that you could have given a

party that weekend?

No, I did not.

I never gave parties.

You indicated that you did

go to parties

at her house on

more than one occasion.

Yes because before being my secretary

she

used to be

the secretary for the Cuban

Mexican

?

Committee or '

something like that. So she used to socialize

very much with all of us for many years, not

months but years.

To you knowledge did Maria Teresa Prorenza

ever attend a party at her house?

It's very likely, I don't know. Because Teresa

Proenza is a very old lady. At these parties

most of the people who attended were young

people so I don't think she attended. Teresa

Proenza was a very old lady at that time and

was very delicate.

How old would she have been then?

Maybe she was of her sixties, but she didn't

seem to be very healthy. She suffured from

?

in her elbows: She was not

able to write almost. And she was not the kind

of lady to attend parties very often.

---

## Page 172

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 10

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Lopez:

Blakey:

Did Louisa Calderon ever attend a party at

the Durans?

Louisa Calderon was working at the Commercial

Delegation then she didn't have those relations

with Silvia. And Louisa Calderon had been

working there for a short period of time and

she lived with her mother. So she was not

qualified for our group, so to say. The

Commercial Delegation had their group.

Did Alfredo Mirabal ever attend a party at

the Durans?

Alfredo Mirabal had just arrived. And he had

many problems with the education of his son,

the installation of his house. So the only

party I ever remembered that he attended was

• a Congress of Counselors that took place in

Mexico City in which we attended together.

He was, so to say, a home man, a man who stay

at home most of the time with his son and his

wife, his mother-in-law.

Did Ornesto -- would you help me

with this

punctuation?

Ornesto M-i-l-e-r.

Is that name familiar to you? Ornesto?

---

## Page 173

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 11

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Ornesto Miler? A Texan maybe?

No.

A very tall man who had been a friend of mine

before in the Spanish War? A member of the

Lincoln Brigade?

No, this would have been a friend of the

Durans.

Yes, they had many friends. It was a very

known family--Durans family. Known as

progressive people.

Emilio Carbiado?

Emilio Carbiedo? He's a Mexican writer, is

that so?

Would he have been at parties at the Durans?

I never saw him there: I never saw him in

parties but it is likely that he visited

the Durans' family because he was a young

man with good relations with us and he was

known in Cuba too.

How about Elena Guerro DePaz?

Yes, she was a friend of mine.

You must pardon my pronunciation of Spanish.

Interpreter: I should understand you but I don't know.

Azcue :

She is a Mexican writer too. A very good writer.

---

## Page 174

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 12

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

ari:. . :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Also the wife of ?

Paz.

One of the

best modern poets Mexico has had. And related

to Horatio Duran

-- to Silvia's husband.

She would have been a friend then both of

yours and the Durans?

Yes

she was.

Did you see her often?

This gets complicated, I was a very good friend

of the painter Guerro Galvan--married to the

sister of Elena Guerro. He was my friend. He

used to come to my house. We used to have

dinner together or I used to go to his house

and we had dinner there. Then at his house

it was that I met Elena Guerro. A very

interesting woman and very cult.

Did you know her well?

We met -- two or three times a year we used

to meet.

It's not that we were so intimate

with each other, it's just that we met once

in a while.

Was

she

emotionaly stable?

Well she is the best woman writer that I have

met and I have

read.

Did she have what might have been called a vivid

imagination about things rather than about writings?

---

## Page 175

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page

13

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

I didn't know her so well, but I met her as a

stable women and her writings, you don't find

that political

?

but rather her

living with an excellent knowledge of Spanish.

If she told you a story about something

that happened would you be apt to believe it?

I think so.

Did she have a reputation for telling stories

that were not true?

I don't think so.

You would describe her then as a responsible

woman?

I think so, maybe a very mature lady.

And if she told you something of a very serious

character, you tendency would be to credit it

as true?

Yes, maybe.

Maybe.

Did you ever hear that lee Harvey Oswald had

attended a party at the Durans in which any

of these other people had been present?

Lee Harvey Oswald absoultely disappeared from

our minds at the moment in which he

left the

Consulate for the last time. Hundreds of

people used to come to the Consulate. He was

---

## Page 176

Interview:

Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 14

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

AZCue :

one.

He was just one of them. Lee Harvey Oswald

came back again to our minds when he was

quoted by the newspapers. May I smoke?

Surely. You must understand that Lee Harvey

Oswald has become a subject of attention

in many peoples mind because of his possible

involvement in the assassination of President

Kennedy and many people now say things about

him that are not always true and are very.

difficult to verify.

?

Io be able to tell a story about him, we have found

during

the

course of our investigation, is

something that many people like to do. And not

all of the stories are true. What we are trying

to do is to find out what is true. Did you

know Consuella Esperon?

Yes I did. She was a secretary for thirty years

during all the governments and all the administrations

Do you know or have you ever heard that she may

have been present at a party in which Lee Harvey

Oswald was?

She did not have parties. She was an old lady

and she wanted to guarentee the years of her

life were filled. She had to work with a

---

## Page 177

Interview:

Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 15

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey :

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

AZCue:

Blakey:

AZCue :

retirement that we could provide for her.

How old would she have been in 1963?

Over sixty, very likely. Mexican--very

tall.

You recall that last time you indicated that

you felt that you might be able to identify

the individual that identified himself as

Lee Harvey Oswald.

I think so.

Although did not appear to be the one who

you saw on TV that Jack Ruby had killed.

Yes, I dia.

Let me show you what has been marked as JEK

Document #007549 and ask you to take a look

at it. We might take a break now for five

minutes of so while you do look at it.

Thank you very much.

We are back on the record now and it has been

twenty-five minutes. Are you able to identify

any of the phogographs in the book.

Yes I have identified some but I have observed

something is very curious. These pictures, most

of them I may identify just the background of

---

## Page 178

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 16

Blakey:

Azcue:

the pictures.

?

that

I was told was in the front of the

?

as well as

the bars.

In defense it can be

seen that in most of these pictures that

have been taken in our Embassy or to our

Embassy front

to the Embassy

or from someplace in front across by the

Embassy.

Perhaps by a wandering photographer.

There are many faces her which is very likely

that I

saw sometime.

some others I identified

because

I remember them because they are a

friend of mine. But all of them have been

taken at the Embassy and it very curious that

the

gentlemen who came to the Chanchery is

not

?

Nor the

man who was shot dead in Dallas it doesn't

come here. None of the two comes in this

picture. The one who took these pictures

it is a feeling he took one of the two. The

one who came

to the Chanchery.

I see

none

neither Lee Harvey Oswald who was

shot down

by Jack Ruby who came to the Chancery. So

---

## Page 179

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 17

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

there are many pictures here.

I may identify

many of them, friends of mine and some others

are just faces I have seen someplace at the

Embassy or the Consulate.

But not of them

correspond to the Lee Harvey Oswald who came

to the Consulate nor from the Lee Harvey

oswald who was shot to death. That's sounds

curious to me. That something?

in

foreign service like this one does not have

the picture of the person who visited the

Chancellor that day. Here I have a list of

the ones I may identify.

could you give us the ones you can identify?

You identified Number 4?

Yes I did. Mirabol. The Chancellor that

replaced me.

And you identified number 34?

Rolando Estabio. from our Commercial Delegation

in Mexico City.

And you identified number 81?

He has a mode of strangeness which

I recall

from people who have been to the Embassy.

but if I see them in the streets--if I

come across with them in the street I wouldn't

say hello. 61, too, you may add, it is

---

## Page 180

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 18

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Rolando Estabio again. 81 is Mr. Won^

He is an engineer who studied in Mexico

and he was at that time studying there

in Mexico. He was following a post-graduate

course.

Number 85.

This looks like Louisa Calderon, I'm not

sure. What was characteristic of Louisa

Calderon was the blue eyes, very blue eyes

and very black hair. The picture--I wouldn't

be so sure but it looks like Louisa Calderon.

How long did she work at the Embassy?

She went there approximately in June '63. So

she had been there only a few months at that

time.

Do you know how long she stayed at the Embassy

after you left?

When I came back to cuba she was here already.

So she has been there very few months.

When did she come back to Cuba?

I don't know. I can't tell you

accurately.

But she came very soon because

when

I came

18

back in November--On November 22 I arrived

here and very soon after I arrived I met her at the

theatre. She lived very close to the theatre.

---

## Page 181

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 19

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Do you know why she came back to Cuba?

Well you know in the kind of positions

in which we worked in the Embassy it is

very ?

and the Commercial

Delegations, they just move you from one

place to the other.

Was there any special reason for bringing

her back?

No special

reason because she just came to

work here.

Would her having been brought back been related

any in any way to the aftermath of the assassina-

tion?

It was even before that. I gave on the 22nd

that she was already here. Yes I came on the

18th and she was already here.

You identified Number 101 as identical to Number

101, 103, 105,107.

Yes all of them are the same person. It's a

DI. A very well known Doctor in Cuba and he

was a writer too and he used to go to the

Cousular very often because he had a son studying

architecture in Mexico. So the only motive for

his visit to Mexico was to visit his son and

---

## Page 182

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

page

20

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

AZCUe:

Blakey:

AZCue :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

to bring him back in order to follow up his

career because there they finished the class

of November in Mexico.

You identified Number 115.

Albero, he was from our cultural service--a

painter.

You also identified Number 157.

No. 120?

Which one--I'm sorry. While you are there

tell us about 120.

She was the assistant to our Counsellor in

Vera Cruz. She used to come to the Embassy

sometime. And the picture there it is taken

at the Embassy. That's all of them. It's

the same one without glasses. Number 157 and

and 150, I think it is the same person.

And who is it?

I don't remember the name, he was a very young

man, but he was the Assistant of our Counsulate

in Vera Cruz.

Mr. Azcue, let me direct your attention back

to Number 159. Have you ever seen that

individual?

i..i

---

## Page 183

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page

21

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

AZCUE:

It looks like a very old man. He looks Cuban.

His face looks to be that of a counterrevolutionary.

?

and dishonest.

Yes, he has that characteristic face.

Have you seen him before?

It seems to me that I have seen him before.

I don't know why, he looks familiar to me.

But I can't place him.

The drawing looks familiar to you or the

person drawn looks familiar to you?

The expression on the face. His hair, the sight

or the way he looks. Any other one?

Would you look at Numbers 26 and 27.

Iwenty-six looks like a young American, typically

american.

Have you ever seen him before?

Typical American boy. Whenever I see his

picture, I would say it was a typical American.

His picture has been taken at the Embassy.

Have you ever seen that individual or one who

looks like him at...

No. I just say it because it is the typical

face of an American. He looks just like a

young American--like a young American student.

---

## Page 184

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 22

Blakey:

AZcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Is it possible that that person could have

• ever been with Silvia Duran?.

This picture has been taken at the Consulate.

The background of the picture is what we call

the Jose Latif quarters where we used to

honor Jose Latif at the Embassy. Identified

because of these round kind of Barcano stone.

Let me direct your attention to

?

Have you ever seen Number 2, 66?

I don't recognize him.

Have you ever seen Number 2, 43, 44, 45, 46?

?

(tape turns over)

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

Have you ever seen Number 213?

Maybe in something, but I don't really know,

I have not met this

person.

Can you recognize any of the individuals in

Number 275?

The Ambassador, Tomas Mann.

And how about the gentlemen on Mr. Mann's left?

That face looks familiar to me like the one

of Tomas Mann which is the one I have seen in

pictures. I don't think I know him personally.

Do you recognize the gentleman on Mr. Mann's

right?

---

## Page 185

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 23

Azcue :

Blakey:

AZCue :

Blakey:

Azcue:

Blakey:

Azcue :

?

Blakey:

AZCUE :

Blakey:

Azcue :

Blakey:

I recognize none of the two. The

?

is that you recognize only a face of the

people that you have seen more often.

Let me return for a moment to Maria Teresa

Proenza. She was recalled from Mexico City

to Cuba in December, is that correct?

I don't know.

When I came she stayed there.

Have you ever seen her since you returned from

Mexico City?

I saw her just a month ago in the National

Library where she is working now. She is

very old.

Do you know why she came back to cuba?

No, no I don't.

No, I have no questions of MI. Azcue. I think

you have asked the ones we have.

MI. Azcue I would like to thank you for your

graciousness in coming here today.

It's a pleasure.

Your testimony has been very helpful.

I hope so.

And it has clarified a number of points that

troubled us.

Let me raise one additional thing

---

## Page 186

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 24

AZCUe :

with you. Your testimony that the individual

who came to the Consulate and at the time of

the Oswald visa application was signed may

not have been the Lee

Harvey Oswald who was

killed by Jack Ruby is obviously very important.

We have taken your testimony in the form of a

recording. The Committee would also like to

extend you a invitation to come to the United

States and testify publicly before the .

Committee. We recognize obviously that the

details of such a trip would have to be worked

out between your government and ours, but

nevertheless we would like to formally extend

you that invitation. The Committee would pay

your transportation and travel expenses while

in the United States and you would of course

have all of the immunities that would attach

to a witness appearing before a Congressional

Committee.

And you would have the protection

of the Government of the United States.

That protection sounds very poor to me.

I am very grateful for that

?

but of course our

government would be the one

---

## Page 187

Interview: Eusebio Azcue Lopez

Page 25

Blakey:

Azcue:

?

Azcue :

?

Blakey:

to have the final word.

But in any case, I did want informally on the

record to indicate that your testimony is of

sufficient significance that we would like

to be able to have you present this testimony

publicly to the Committee and the Congress

and the American people.

Thank you.

Thank you Senor Azcue.

You are welcome.

I second the invitation.

Let me indicate for the record that it is now

4:35.

..-.

---

## Page 188

MIRABAL / STATEMLINIS

---

## Page 189

KENNEDY

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

Name

Address

Alfredo Mirabal Diaz

Date August 26, 1978Time 10:15 ar

Place Riveria Hotel, Havana, Cut

Interview:

Blakey:

For the record, let me indicate that it is Saturday,

August 26. It is 10:15 and we are in the Riveria

Hotel in Havana, Cuba and the people present from

the American Delegation include Congressman Richardson

Preyer, G. Robert Blakey and Edwin Lopez. And I

wonder if the Cuban Delegation could identify them-

selves.

Interpreter: Senor Buergo,

from the Ministry of Foreign

Affairs, Captain Felipe Ville from the Ministry of

Interior, and Ricardo Escartin , Foreign Service:

Juanita

Vera, interpreter.

Blakey:

Mr. Mirabal, what we'd like to do this morning

with your permission is to discuss with you some

of the facts surrounding the assassination of Presi-

dent Kennedy, more particularly the visit of Lee

Harvey Oswald to Mexico City in September of 1963.

I wonder if you'd state for the record your full

name.

Interviewer Signature

Typed Signature G. Robert Blakey

Date transcribed

BY : br

8-30-78

Form #4-

---

## Page 190

Mirabal Interview

Page 2.

Mirabal: Alfredo Mirabal Diaz.

Blakey:

Would you state your date and place of birth?

Mirabal: I was 'born in Havana on August 11,

1923.

Blakey:

Are you presently employed?

Mirabal: Yes, I am.

Blakey:

Where?

Mirabal: In a factory of paintings.

Blakey:

Where were you employed in September of 1963?

Mirabal: In the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Blakey:

Where

you were physically located?

Mirabal: At the Department of the Chauncery of the Ministry

of Foreign Affairs.

Blakey:

And where were you stationed?

Mirabal: In Mexico City.

Blakey:

Mr. Mirabal, on April 1, 1978 MI. Eusebio Azcue

prepared a drawing for us of the Consulate in

Mexico City. Let me show you what's been previously

marked as Azcue #1. Does that appear to be an accurate

drawing of the Consulate?

Mirabal:

Yes.

Blakey:

I wonder if you could explain for me a couple of

things. Looking at the drawing from the bottom up!

the bottom being what is marked Azcue #1, woula

you tell me the name of the street that runs--would

you tell me which direction is north and which di-

rection is south? If you remember.

---

## Page 191

Mirabal Interview

Page 3.

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

It's not easy for me but now I think it was that

way, upside down. No, I'm sorry, it is like you

presented it to me first.

The top of the drawing would be north? And the

bottom would be south?

Yes, I think, because the entrance to the Embassy

would be up here. But I'm not sure of that. I

mean at present I'm not quite sure.

Would you tell me the name of the street then

that runs east and west?

I think that one was Francisco-Marques Street.

The street that runs north-south, is that Francisco-

Marques?

I don't remember the name of the other street. I

can't remember because we always gave the address,

the Embassy's address, which was Francisco-Marques

and it was a very wide avenue.

would you tell me in your own words how you would

gain entrance to the Consulate?

By this door.

Was this an iron gate or steel

gate or--?

This was walls:

How high were the walls?

There was another floor up above the walls.

If

I'm not wrong in my memory, as I recall, these

---

## Page 192

Mirabal Interview

Page 4.

walls here accounted for all the buildings which

were there-two story buildings. It was not ex-

actly a wall to separate us from the street but

rather other buildings.

Blakey:

Were

these gates normally closed?

Mirabal:

This was a wooden door, a wooden gate. Actually,

I never came in this way, on very few occasions,

then I don't have an accurate idea of how the out-

side of the building looked.

Blakey:

Would people who came for visas come through the

wooden doors?

Mirabal:

Yes.

And here there was a living room and here

there would be the secretary. And this would be

the staircase that would lead to the second floor.

Blakey:

When you came in through the wooden door, did the

wooden door-did it open into a courtyard of did

it open into a living room?

Mirabal: No, no. This was a living room and here there was a

laundry, a pantry. This was the courtyard. There

was a door around here and you go to the courtyard.

That room did not have a door.

Blakey:

What were the hours that the Consulate was open?

Mirabal:

For the public it was open at ten in

the morning

and close at two in the afternoon.

Blakey:

What days of the week were these hours observed?

---

## Page 193

Mirabal Interview

Page 5.

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

From Monday to Friday.

Was the Consulate open on Saturdays?

I don't think so, I don't think so. Not on Satur-

day for the public. We used to work, but internally.

But it was not open to the public?

NO .

From two to four, was that your lunch hour?

Yes, from two to four.

Did you return after lunch to continue working in

the afternoon?

Yes, from four to six.

From four to six you worked, but the Consulate was

not open at that time.

It was not open to the public. And we used to

work also from eight to ten in the morning but it

was not open to the public at that time.

Did everyone leave around six in the evening?

Yes, and there there were two people working, be-

cause the janitor worked at the Embassy, too.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Were there ever occasions when either you or other

people connected with the Consulate/stayed after

six?

Yes, it could be one of those days at the end of

the month but it was not a common practice.

---

## Page 194

Mirabal Interview

Blakey:

Who worked in the. Consulate office?

Mirabal:

The secretary and me.

Blakey:

What was her name?

Mirabal:

Sylvia Duran.

Blakey:

In September of 1963 was there anyone else in the

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

office besides yourself and Sylvia Duran?

Eusebio Azcue. I took his office but

at that

time he was still helping me to get familiar with

the working of the office. So he: stayed there for

some time assisting

me.

Did the two of you share the same office?

Yes, we did because it was a large room, but he

was not there permanently. He just came and left--

He spent some hours there. If he was needed he

would stay longer.

When did you arrive in Mexico to replace Mr. Azcue?

Mirabal:

On September the second.

Blakey:

When did he leave to return to Cuba?

...

Mirabal: I don't remember.

Interpreter: (He misunderstood the question.)

Mirabal:

Some days past after I arrived in Mexico City,

Blakey:

maybe a month, over a month, two morths.

Was it prior to the assassination of President Ken-

nedy?

Mirabal:

I think so:

---

## Page 195

Mirabal Interview

Page 7.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

But after the visit of Lee Harvey Oswald to the

Consulate?

Yes, it was afterwards.

Was Mr. Azcue normally in the Consulate during this

period in September from the hours that we talked

about, roughly eight to seven?

Well, yes.

He used to go in the morning to see if

I needed him. Every day he went to the office.

I take it then that you were familiar with the pro-

cedures that were normally followed in the issuance

of visas.

Is that correct?

Yes, I was.

And either you or Mr. Azcue processed most

visas

Is that correct?

There was a moment at which I took full responsi-

bility for the Consulate. Signing all the documents,

and from that moment on he didn't sign any more.

I used to sign them myself-- though he was still

there in order to assist me with the proceedings.

Was

there any circumstance in which a security

officer associated with the Consulate would get

involved with a visa application?

Not that I know. The visas were handled by me

from the point of view of the official procedures

and in special, in very special cases the Ambassador

---

## Page 196

Mirabal Interview

Page 8.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

would take responsibility for that.

Did you have any instructions to bring to the

security officer's attention anything that might

occur through the course of a visa application?

Those instructions I had regarding the Ambassador,

I mean to go to the Ambassador directly, to con-

sult with the Ambassador because they --

they only make all the arrangements for the visa.

Sometimes we had cases which had to be solved by

the Ambassador himself. For instance, Cuba.

people who came very often to cuba, then the

Ambassador knew about that situation and they did

not have to go through this application process.

But that had to be authorized by the Ambassador

himself, and nobody else.

Were there any circumstances in which you would

draw the attention of a security officer associated

with the Embassy to the visa application?

That

is as opposed to drawing it to the attention of

the Ambassador?

The problem is that I've never harl new from a security

officer attached to the Embassy for these cases.

All my relations were with the Ambassador.

---

## Page 197

Mirabal Interview

Page 9.

Blakey:

To your knowledge then, no security officers were

attached to the Embassy?

Mirabal: Not that I know.

Blakey:

Let me draw your attention then to that latter part

of September of 1963. Were you at the Consulate

Office when Lee Harvey Oswald visited and attempted

to acquire a visa?

Mirabal:

Yes, I was present.

Blakey:

What day did he first come?

Mirabal: I have the idea that he went two days. It seems to

me that he visited the Consulate on two occasions.

Now, when was it?

The first one I don't remember;

the second one I think was the one at the end of

September. The day which he signed the application.

Blakey:

Let me, let me show you a calendar for 1963, and

direct your attention to September. The Cuban

Government has

previously furnished the Committee

with a copy of an-application for a visa. Number

779, that indicates that an application was filled

out on September 27th, which according to the calen-

dar would have been a Friday. Does that information

refresh your recollection as to when Mr. Oswald

would have first come to the Consulate?

Mirabal:

Of course, a long time has passed. In addition to

that, I was not the one who took charge of the

---

## Page 198

Mirabal Interview

Page 10.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

visitors. Rather, it would be the secretary who was

in charge of receiving the visitors. I would

only sign the applications and the documents I

had to sign.

Did you sign the application for Mr. Oswald the

first time he came, or the second time he came?

I don't remember. I don't remember as to be able

to give you an accurate answer. I have in my

recollection that it was the second time.

That would mean the first time he visited would

have been a Thursday, the 26th. Is that correct?

I cannot tell you accurately.

And then the second time he visited would have

been on a Friday the 27th when he filled out the

formal application?

Yes, I do remember that there was a discussion.

There was

an argument on the two occasions that

he came.

Was there an argument on both occasions that he

came?

Yes, with Azcue.

Were you present during both discussions that he came?

Well, present in the building but that discussion

was, that argument took place where the secretary

---

## Page 199

Mirabal Interview

Page 11.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

was.

When I heard the people talking loudly, of

course, I just went and looked. But I

was not

present at the argument, exactly, when it took

place.

Do you recall seeing Lee Harvey Oswald?

Yes, in that way, because I just went to the door

and took a little peak as I heard the loud voices.

Would you describe him as you remember him?

If I describe him now I could be influenced by

the pictures I have seen of him. I do not have a

clear cut image of him at that time.

Could you tell me about how old he was?

About thirty years.

Could you tell me what kind of build he had?

Was he slight, muscular?

He was rather light, not very broad-shouldered

but rather light and narrow build. I think the

head was not a kind of a round head, but rather

narrow. And the man was rather small.

What color hair did he have?

I would say light brown.

Do you recall the color of his eyes?

No. I didn't see them.

What do you recall of his complexion?

I saw him. It came to my attention when I heard

---

## Page 200

....

Mirabal Interview

Page 12.

the argument loud then I just went out to take

a look at the argument, what he was discussing.

I was not interested in his person exactly.. Be-

sides, I did not know English. I thought it could

be an argument.

so I saw it and then

I went back and took seat in my office.

remember comparing him with Azcue. He was rather

small and narrow, a very grave face, a serious

face.

Blakey:

How was he dressed? Did he have a suit on?

Mirabal: It seems to me he had a suit and a tie. It seems

to me.

Blakey:

I recognize of course that I'm asking you about

events over fifteen years ago and what we want

really is your best memory and I know that it's

sometimes difficult to remember things. And so

I hope you bear with me if I ask you these kinds

of detailed questions. Can you recall what kind

of suit it was?

Was it dark or light?

Mirabal: I can tell that the recollection I have is that

it was rather light but who can retain

that in

the memory?

Blakey:

Can you remember whether it was stripped or solid

color?

Mirabal:

If we ask the secretary maybe she knows, because

---

## Page 201

Mirabal Interview

Page 13:

Blakey:

Mirabal :

Blakey:

Mirabal:

women take more notice of that kind of thing.

Did you have any subsequent discussions with Mr.

Azcue about the nature of the argument that you

had?

No:

Did he ever tell you what lee Harvey Oswald had

said to him?

Yes. At the moment he told me.. At the moment of

the argument I remember that Oswald showed a

Communist Party card and another card of American

association. It's written down in the note, a

card of the Fair Play for Cuba Association. Then

Azcue took it to my desk and showed it to me.

Displayed in front of me. So I had no instructions

of anything of that sort, so I told Azcue to take

it away but it caught my attention from the

first discussion that took place. Two things:

first, the demanding and angry way in which he

said that he wanted a visa in any case, that he

was being persecuted, that he had no money to

Keep himself in Mexico and that he needed to travel

to Cuba urgently. That he said it in a way that

is not a humble way of asking for it but rather

demanding. That seemed to me very rare, it

was strange; it seemed to me like a

---

## Page 202

Mirabal Interview

Page 14.

Blakey:

kind of a provocation. And later the display

of the Communist Party card and

the other card.

That time I told Azcue no, give all back to

him. And he probably was like any other person.

And that Comrade Azcue knew too. So there was

no difference, no argument between Azcue and

me about that. The only solution was to have

it, to have him sent to the Ambassador, for the

Ambassador to make a--a decision about that, be-

cause

the Ambassador could have given him the

visa as a political matter. But the way he de-

manded it, the way he projected himself was so

strange, that we just applied the rules. Then

he also said that his wife was a Soviet citizen,

as a way to identify himself. Then I called

the Consul, the Soviet Consul. I consulted him

about the case, if he knew anything about that

case.

So I was told that he had been at the

-.

Soviet Embassy also and requested a visa

but

they had followed the procedures and forwarded it

to Moscow but that would take time.

Let me return to that in a moment, 'Mr. Mirabal.

and let me ask you one other thing about the dis-

cussion that Mr. Azcue had with Mr." Oswald. What

---

## Page 203

Mirabal Interview

Page 15.

I'd like to do is to read you a passage from a

book written by a man named Daniel Shorr. The

name of the book is "Clearing the Air." It was

published in 1977. By reading it, you should

not think that I necessarily credit as true.

What I'd like to do is ask you as a person who

was present in Mexico City to comment on the in-

formation that it contains. And I'm quoting now

from page 177.

"Oswald had come to the Consulate, the Cuban

Consulate twice, each time for about fif-

teen minutes."

'This is now a quote attri-

buted to Premier Castro.)

"The first

time

I was

told he wanted to work for us.

He

was asked to explain but he wouldn't. He

wouldn't go into details.

The second time

he said he wanted to

'free Cuba from Ameri-

can Imperialism.'

Then he said something

like,

"Someone ought to shot that President

Kennedy. "

Then Oswald said, and this is

exactly how it was reported

to me, "Maybe

I'll try to do it."

Do you recall anything like these quotes attributed

to Lee Harvey Oswald having occurred in the Embassy?

The Consulate I mean?

Mirabal: Absolutely not.

Blakey:

Did you have discussions with Sylvia duran about

what Oswald said?

i

Mirabal:

Not at that time. She was just there

and while

Azcue and me were talking she was just there listen-

ing.

We just exchanged some words, we can not say

it was conversation.

---

## Page 204

Mirabal Interview

Page 16..

Blakey:

Did she ever tell you anything like the threats

that are attributed to Oswald?

Mirabal:

No, she never did.

Blakey:

Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Azcue

since both of your return to cuba about his feel-

ing that the person who was present at the Consulate

may not have been the same Lee Harvey Oswald who

was killed in Dallas?

Mirabal:

I don't remember. After Azcue came back and

then I returned too, I met him only once and now

yesterday I saw him on his way out here.

Blakey:

So you've never discussed with him his feeling

that there might have been two Oswalds?

Mirabal:

NO.

Blakey:

Does your memory of the man who was in the Con-

sulate square with the same person you know to

have been, from seeing him in the newspapers,

killed in Dallas?.

Mirabal: Well, when the first pictures came in the news-

papers, the following day after the assassination,

there was not even on the part of Sylvia Duran or

on my part anything that told us that it was

not the same person. We did not enter into a dis-

cussion whether it was the same person or not, we

---

## Page 205

Mirabal Interview

Page 17.

did not make that

decision.

We

never thought--the impression we got when we

saw the pictures was that it was the same person.

And we didn't start to think about it

I don't remember having talked about

that.

Blakey:

Let me go back to where you were before I inter-

rupted you. You indicated that Lee Harvey Oswald

had come in, probably on a Thursday and asked for

an application. And then someone then called the

Russian Consulate. Can you recall who it was

that called?

Mirabal:

I did.

Blakey:.

Your memory is that you called personally?

Mirabal:

On the first occasion, no. On the secona occa-

sion, when I wrote the note, was that I phoned

the Soviet Consulate.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

You did it personally?

Yes, I did.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

It was not done by Sylvia duran?

If she did it, I don't know. I did it myself.

with whom did you speak at the soviet Embassy?

Mirabal:

With the consul of the Deputy consul.

Blakey:

Mirabal: No I don't.

Can you recall his name?

---

## Page 206

Mirabal Interview

Page 18.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

What did you tell him?

I consulted hin about the case, whether they

had any news about that person or his wife who

was

a Soviet citizen.

Blakey:

And what did he tell you?

Mirabal:

And he told me about that, that that same man

had been in his office to request a visa for

the U.s.S.R.

But that he had forwarded to Mos-

cow and that it would take about

four months to

get a reply.

It is known that a citizen of a

country has the right to go back to that country.

But it was not she who was requesting a visa to

come to Cuba but rather himself, her husband.

But then it seemed to me somewhat strange, a

strange combination. So we decided not even to

forward the case to the Ambassador.

Blakey: .

Let me see if I can't get clear. When did this

telephone conversation--when in the day did this

telephone conversation take place?

Was it in

the morning or in the afternoon?

Mirabal:

It seems to me it was around noon time. I don't

remember. It should have been within ten and two

in the afternoon.

Blakey:

Was

Oswald present in the Consulate when you

---

## Page 207

Mirabal Interview

Page 19.

Mirabal:

made the phone call?

I think so. I think he was because I made the

telephone call before writing out the note.

Blakey:

Okay.

Let me see if I can't reconstruct with

you what happened.

He came in on the second occasion, filled

out the application, and then you called the so-

viet Embassy to check to see whether he had re-

ceived his visa and they gave you the information

that you previously gave us.

Mirabal: Yes.

Blakey:

Did you then give the information to Mr. Oswald?

Mirabal: No, I did not. To Mr. Azcue.

Blakey:

And that's when the argument occurred?

Mirabal: No, no.. The discussion was before that. Because

though he came to fill out the application, the

way he was asking to do it, he wanted to have the

reply very soon. He said he could not wait for

months and then there was another argument about

that. There was an argument on both occasions.

Blakey:

Did any other people make phone calls from the

Cuban Embassy to the Russian Embassy?

About the

Oswald case?

Mirabal: Not from my phone. I had a telephone in my office

---

## Page 208

Mirabal Interview

Page 20.

and the secretary had another telephone.

Blakey:

Did Sylvia Duran ever call the Russians?

Mirabal: I cannot tell you yes and I cannot tell you no.

Blakey:

Did you ever had any conversation with her

that would

lead you to believe that she had made phone calls?

Mirabal:

No.

Blakey:

Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Azcue

that would lead you to believe that he had made

phone calls in this connection?

Mirabal:

Blakey:

I don't know about that.

You mean you don't remember whether he did or

didn't? Or you just have no knowledge at all?

Mirabal: Not that I know. I

never knew about that.

Blakey:

Did you ever make a phone call to the Russian Em-.

bassy in which you put lee Harvey Oswald on the

phone to let him directly talk to the Russian Em-

bassy?

Mirabal:

Blakey:

No, I never did.

Did you ever have any direct face-to-face conver-

sations with Mr. Oswald?

Mirabal:

Blakey:

No, I never did.

When the argument occurred, what language was

Oswald

speaking?

Mirabal:

English.

---

## Page 209

Mirabal Interview

Page 21.

Blakey:

Did he ever speak Russian in the Embassy?

Mirabal:

Not that I heard.

(Tape turned over.)

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Let me repeat that question. Did he ever speak

Russian in the Embassy?

No, I was all the time in my office, and working.

I had work to do. I tell you honestly, I never

gave much importance to that. It was just a

simple argument, a discussion. At that moment

also he was not--the figure he became later. I

did not pay much attention. But rather to

loud voices

I heard, that was what called my atten-

tion. But what

was going on there I do not know.

Those voices were speaking in English, then?

The three of them--the Secretary, Azcue and Oswald.

Did you know Azcue both professionally and so-

cially?

I met him September the second, 1963. He went to

receive me at the airport. Then afterwards

we

became good friends.

Did you know sylvia duran both professionally and

socially?

Well, from the social point of view

I visited her

once during a birthday party because it was logical.

---

## Page 210

Mirabal Interview

Page 22.

I was head at the office and she invited me.

But we never carry out any social life together.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Did you ever attend any parties at her house?

Blakey:

Yes, I did.

Do you recall attending any parties that period

during September at her house?

Mirabal:

Well, the party was soon after the night I

arrived in Mexico.

I don't remem-

ber if it was her birthday, I think it was. Hers

or her husband's.

Blakey: Do you know when she was born?

Mirabal: No.

Blakey:

Could it be that her birthday is November 22nd,

the day of the assassination?

Mirabal: No, I can't tell you.

Blakey:

Can you recall whether you attended a party that

would not be a birthday party that weekend in

September when Oswald was in Mexico City?

Mirabal:

No, I don't.

Blakey:

Do you know

if Mr. Azcue attended any parties at

her house that weekend?

Mirabal:

They knew each

other

for sometime but I

can't tell you if he went to her house to

a party.

---

## Page 211

Mirabal Interview

Page 23.

Blakey:

Did you know Maria Teresa Proenza?

Mirabal:

I met her at the Embassy but I didn't have any

relations with her.

Blakey:

Do you know if she was at a party at the Durans

Mirabal:

that weekend?

No, I don't remember.

Blakey:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Did you know General Jose Jesus Clark Florez?

Mirabal: I met a lot of people, I don't remember.

Did you know Emilio Carbellido?

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

I think I heard the

name but if I met him I

don't remember, perhaps it was at the time I

think I heard the name, Emilio Carbellido.

Do you know if he attended a party at the Durans

that latter part of September?

No I don't.

Did you know Elena Garro de Paz?

No, I don't. Perhaps I met her but I cannot as-

sociate the name with the person

now.

Did you know Deba Guerrero de Galvan?

NO.

Did you know a Victor Rico Gallan?

Yes, I did.

And who was--

Journalist.

Did you know him well?

to the Consul.

Mirabal:

No, but he used

to go

We had super-

---

## Page 212

Mirabal Interview

Page 24.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakéy:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

ficial relations always.

Did you ever hear that lee Harvey Oswald was at

a party at the Durans on the weekend of September

26, 27, 28, 29?

No, I never heard that.

Mr. Mirabal, I hope you will understand that the

questions now that I am going to ask you are some-

what delicate and I would not ask you unless I had

information that made it necessary. And I would

not ask these kinds of questions just to pry into

people's private lives. Having apologized for the

delicate character of what I am doing, let me ask

you a series of questions.

Was Sylvia Duran married when she worked at the

Consulate?

She told me that she was married with a painter.

Did you ever hear that she was unfaithful to her

husband?

...

Well, there were some comments but not very serious.

I never gave any importance to the comments. that

were made:

Did she have a reputation for being with more than

one man on more than one occasion?

No. As far as I know.

Could she have been described as a woman of easy

virtue?

---

## Page 213

Mirabal Interview

Page 25.

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

The thing is that I never used to speak about

those types of things with the other people.

The distinction that I'm trying to draw, it is

sometimes possible for a person to have an affair

even outside of marraige based on love. There

are other people who would stay with anyone and

what I'm trying to ask you as delicately as possi-

ble is if Ms. Duran had the reputation of being

the kind of woman who might stay with anyone?

I never knew that version.

You indicated that you did hear that she perhaps

was unfaithful. Without going into the details

of the people.

There were some comrades there at the Embassy who

started commenting but not as a serious matter.

Not as a serious conversation.

Did you ever hear that she might have had an affair,

at least a week-end affair, with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mirabal: No.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Do you think that if this had occurred that you

might have heard about it?

Yes.

People would have commented ón Éhat.

Be-

cause after what happened, that is, the assassina-

tion of the President, we talked a lot. There

was

a lot of conversations dealing with Oswald.

---

## Page 214

Mirabal Interview.

Page 26.

Blakey:

Do you know how Sylvia duran got home at night?

Mirabal:

No.

Blakey:

Did her husband come to pick her up?

Mirabal:

Sometimes.

Blakey:

Did you know a Ernesto Lehfeld Miller (Ph.)?

Mirabal:

Do you know if anyone other than her husband ever

came to pick her up?

Mirabal:

No.

Blakey:

Did you ever hear or learn that Sylvia Duran

sent Lee Harvey Oswald to a group of students at

the University of Mexico?

In an effort to obtain

the visa?

Mirabal:

NO.

Blakey:

Do you think you would have heard of such activity

had it occurred?

Mirabal:

It would have been normal.

Blakey:

Do you know an Oscar Contrares Lartigue?

Mirabal: Not by the name.

Blakey:

Did you know any students at the law school at

the University of Mexico?

Mirabal:

Well, I, there were some students who used to go

to the Embassy looking for propaganda, books,

literature.

Blakey:

Did you know a Ricardo Guerra?

Mirabal: No.

---

## Page 215

Mirabal Interview

Page 27.

Blakey:

Following the assassination of President Kennedy,

was Sylvia Duran arrested by the Mexican Govern-

ment?

Mirabal:

Yes, she was.

Blakey:

Did she discuss with you that arrest?

Mirabal:

Afterwards.

Blakey:

Would you tell us what she said happened to her?

Mirabal: She told me that she was arrested. I don't even

remember where it was. It was either in her

house of out of her house, that she was mal-

treated.

Blakey:

What do you mean by maltreated?

Mirabal:

Not, uh, she was not beaten. But she had some

bruises and

they wanted to link her with

Oswald.

Blakey:

HOW

did they give an indication that they wanted

to link her with Oswald?

Mirabal: Because of the visit to the Embassy.

Blakey:

When you say they, do you mean the Mexican Police?

Mirabal: Yes, it was the Mexican police.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Which police service arrested her?

I don't remember -- The Mexican políce.

Blakey:

What I mean was that, there are several different

Mexican police services.

Do you remember which

service it was that arrested her?

---

## Page 216

Mirabal Interview

Page 28.

Mirabal:

No, I don't.

Blakey:

Did she tell you what questions she was asked

the Mexican police?

Mirabal:

Well, you know, she was talking about that and

who was present. The Ambassador was also present.

Blakey:

What questions did they ask her?

Mirabal: I don't remember exactly now but I do know that--

Blakey: Did they make any

accusations against her?

Mirabal: No, no. She was released.

Blakey:

What I meant was, in the questions did they accuse

her of doing anything?

Mirabal:

As far as I

knew, they wanted to link her with

this event.

I know that there is something.

about that.

Blakey:

Did they want to link her to it personally.

For

example, did they ask her if she had an affair

with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mirabal:

No, I don't remember anything.

Blakey:

Of did they try to link her in the sense that she

was an employee of the Cuban Embassy?

Mirabal:

I think so.

Blakey:

Did they suggest that

somehow the Cuban Government

was involved with lee Harvey Oswald, and thus the

assassination, an attempt through Ms. Duran to

establish that link?

---

## Page 217

Mirabal Interview

Page

29.

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

I don't remember but I don't think so.

She commented on everything but uh--

I note that it's now eleven fifteen and that

it would probably be unfair for me to continue

asking questions without giving you say, five

minutes for rest. I wouldn't want it said

that I was unfair to you. Perhaps we could

take

a

five minute break.

Let the record indicate that it is now

twenty minutes to twelve. (Break. )

On any occasion that Mr. Oswald was present

at the Consulate did you ever get any indica-

tion that he was with other people?

No.

Did you see anyone outside that he might have

gone out and been with?

I remember an image that one time in which I

went to the window there was a woman close to

the Consulate. I remember but it is not very

clear but I didn't know who she was.

Is there any reason to associate

her with him?

No, I didn't have any-- ....

Did you see him go out and talk to her?

No, I did not. Excuse me, one of the things he

brought to the Consulate was a certificate of

marriage. When he showed it to me, I didn't ask

---

## Page 218

Mirabal Interview

Page 30.

anything related to these certificate but I

related that I associated that perhaps that woman

that was outside could be his wife.

Blakey:

Did he say that he was

with her?

Mirabal: No, no. I never talked to him.

Blakey :

It's just an assumption on your part that it could

have been true?

Mirabal:

Blakey :

Yes, only an assumption.

Could you recall for me what the reaction was in

the Cuban Consulate and Embassy to President Ken-

Mirabal:

nedy's assassination?

Well, when we heard about it, I can't recall, I

think it was the days after, I heard it in the

morning, we put on the radio and we heard about

the news. Well, you can imagine the feeling of

the people working at the Embassy, they were

very upset. They were worried also, because

that's not common for these events to happen.

....

Especially because at that time our relations

with the U.s. government were not good and in

Mexico we had a very active counter-revolutionary force

who threatened us whenever we had a party and

sometimes they managed to carry out some acts

against us. For example, throwing " ink.

bottles to. our Embassy, and different provocations

---

## Page 219

Mirabal Interview

Page 31.

against us. So, first of all, the news worried

us because it was the assassination of a u:s.

President and this hadn't happened for a long

time. And also, because that situation perhaps

the counter-revolutionaries could use

us.

That is mainly the impression I recall. And

we tried to maintain ourselves as calm as we

could.

Blakey:

Did you have any discussions with Sylvia Duran

about Lee Harvey Oswald's trip to the Consulate

in light of the

assassination?

Mirabal:

No, I didn't.

Blakey:

Do you recall her reaction to the assassination?

Mirabal:

She was

the one who gave me the news that he was

assassinated. She communicated first that he

was assassinated, then I put on the radio. Some-

time later she herself came again and she told

me that the name that the radio had given as the

assassin was the same name of that person who went

to the Embassy requesting a visa. Because the thing

is that she handles everything, the

, papers, and

she had

to write up for sometime, different times,

the name,

so she recalled it. And she remembered

the name.

---

## Page 220

Mirabal Interview

Page 32.

Blakey:

What did you do with that information?

Mirabal:

Well, what I told you before, we

Blakey:

Did you report it to the Ambassador that the

reported assassin of the President of the United

States had asked for a visa?

Mirabal: Yes.

Blakey:

Do you know what he did with it?

Mirabal:

He recommended us to be calm

and to wait for the events.

He was going to talk

with the Mexican authorities. That is what I

remember.

Blakey:

Do you know if any communication was had between

Mexico City and Havana about Lee Harvey Oswald

and the visa application?

Mirabal: No.

Blakey:

You don't know. Could, is it possible that there

was

some communication that you did not know about?

•-.

Mirabal: I didn't know.

Blakey:

Did anyone ever

talk to you as part of an investiga-

tion conducted by the Cuban Government into Lee

Harvey Oswald's visit?

Mirabal:

After the assassination?

Blakey:

After the assassination.

Mirabal:

NO.

---

## Page 221

Mirabal Interview

Page 33.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Have you ever had any conversations with anyone

about what we're

talking about today?

At that time?

Yes.

Yes,

at that time we were talking with the different

officers of the Embassy, because

the press was

talking about these events very frequently. But

after some days, nothing was said. I haven't

talked about this--

These were all informal conversations?

Yes.

Among comrades.

Have you ever participated in any -

investigation of what happened?

No.

Eithen then or subsequently?

so far, no.

Let me

show you the copy of a visa application

supplied to us by-the Cuban government, number

779. Let me direct your attention to the lower

right-hand corner.

Do you see the signature

there? Is that your signature?

Yes, it is.

could you tell us how that application would have

• been filled out? Who typed it?

---

## Page 222

Mirabal Interview

Page 34.

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

It was typed by the secretary to Sylvia Duran.

I suppose so, because

she was the one in charge

of that.

But she used to fill out applications.

where would she have gotten the information on

the top part of the application?

Is that the signature of Lee Harvey Oswald?

The applicant is the one that supplies the infor-

mation.

Where would she have gotten the information that

appears below the phrase?

It was drafted by myself.

would you have dictated this to her?

I wrote it down on a piece of paper and I gave

it to her.

Where would you have gotten the information?

From

the documents he showed to me, and fror.

the

call I made.

to the Embassy. I think that'is

what is expressed there. Do you mind if I read

it?

No, please do.

i

The applicant says that he is a member of the com-

munist Party of the United States. It seems to

say

"Secretary

in New Orleans

of the

Fair Play for Cuba Committee" and also that he

---

## Page 223

Mirabal Interview

Page 35.

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

lived in the U.S.S.R. from October 1959 up

to June 19, 1962. That's what he said.. That

while there he got married with a soviet citi-

zen.

He produced

some documents that accre-

dited him as

member of the organizations men-

tioned before and a marriage certificate. He

presented himself at the Embassy of the U.s.s.R.

in this city requesting a visa to visit the

Embassy in Cuba. We called up the Consulate

of the Soviet Union and they told us that they

had to wait for the authorization of Moscow

in order to issue the visa and that it would take

approximately four months. That is, that what

he declared and the different consultations I

made with the Consulate so that the Cuban au-

thorities might be able to understand.

When would this application have been typed in

this fashion? ...

At that moment.

The information would have been, I take it

then, directly given to sylvia duran by Mr.

Oswald. And the other information would have

been given to you.

Not to me alone but to Azcue. Both.

---

## Page 224

Mirabal Interview

Page 36.

Blakey:

And then it would have been typed on the applica-

tion, and Mr. Oswald would have signed it right

then?

Mirabal :

I don't remember now if he signed before or after-

wards, but it was the same day.

Blakey:

Do I understand you to say that he may have signed

an application in blank and then the information

would have been typed into it afterwards?

Mirabal:

It is possible because that is something that be-

longs to the Mission. It is not signed by the

applicant; he just only commit himself

with

what he

says. This is internal.

Blakey:

What I'm trying to understand is the procedure

that would have been followed. In most situations

what did the applicant do?

Mirabal: He signed the application.

Blakey:

In blank?

Mirabal: No, no, no. After filling it out.

Blakey:

Okay. He would, what I'm--as you told me, he

didn't type it. The secretary typed it. Okay.

So he would have to have given the information to

the secretary. She would then havé

to have typed

it. And the information would have to have given

to Mr. Azcue and he would have to have dictated

to Ms. Duran the material that appears on the bottom.

---

## Page 225

Mirabal Interview

Page 37.

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

And when all of that was typed on the application,

I take it it would have been given to him to

sign.

Is that correct?

I can't tell you if it was like that exactly.

It was done generally; I can't tell you exactly

if it was done like that. Now, what I can tell

you is that it was made the same day at the same

moment.

Uh huh. Did he sign that in your presence?

Not in my presence.

Was it ever a practice to allow an applicant to

take the application with him, away from the Con-

sulate?

No, that was not allowed.

So they would always have been filled out and signed

in the Consulate?

It was not forbidden but it was not necessary to

do that.

1--.

Was more than one copy of the visa application made?

Yes.

How many were?

I just sign them. I think there were

'five or six

copies.

Did the applicant sign each one individually?

---

## Page 226

Mirabal Interview

Page 38.

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Yes.

Did you have carbon paper available that would

permit him to sign all copies at the same time?

I can't tell you that because he didn't

sign in

my presence.

Was it the custom that you had carbon paper avail-

able?

That would permit applicants to sign all

copies at the same time?

That was handled by the secretary and I don't

know how she worked (it). I was never interested

in that

because I was working on other things.

She was working there for some time--

Could I ask you to give me an exemplar of your own

signature? (Break while Mr. Mirabal writes name.)

Would you date it? August 26, 1978.

(Laughter.)

Mr. Mirabal, you previously indicated that you knew

Maria Teresa Perenza and that she worked in the

Embassy. Was she

• subsequently recalled from Mexico

City to Cuba?

Yes.

Why was she recalled?

Mirabal: : I don't know.

Blakey:

Did you ever have any discussions with anyone in the

---

## Page 227

Mirabal Interview

Page 40.

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

...

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Blakey:

Mirabal:

Embassy about why she left?

If I had it, I don't remember.

I had very few relations with her.

You previously indicated that you knew Luisa

Calderone. Is that correct?

We haven't talked about Luisa Calderone.

I'm sorry. Did you know Luisa Calderone?

Yes, she worked at the Embassy.

What did she do at the Embassy?

She worked I think in the commercial depart-

ment.

She subsequently was recalled to Cuba, is that

correct?

Yes, after two months. I knew her a very short

time.

Why was she recalled to Cuba?

I don't know.

END

OF TAPE.

---

## Page 228

TAPE TINO

KENNEDY

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

Name

Address

Alfredo Mirabal Diaz

Date

Place

Time

Interview:

See

attached.

Interviewer Signature

Typed Signature

R. Preyer/GR Blakey/E Lopez

Date transcribed

9/1/78

By:

am

Form #4-

---

## Page 229

Mirabal Interview

Page 41.

BLAKEY: You were just saying before we had to change

the tapes...

MIRABAL: Well, generally, personnel in an embassy

will take office over for just a period of time.

And I think

they said that she left to Cuba because she finished with

her period of time in the Embassy.

BLAKEY: Was there any connection between her return

to Cuba and the assassination of President Kennedy?

MIRABAL: No, never. I don't know if she left before

or after.

BLAKEY: Mr. Mirabal, let me show you two black folders,

one of which is identified as the photo identification book.

The second is identified as...

INTERPRETER: The first one is identified...

BLAKEY: ...as photo identification book. The second

is identified as J.F.K. document number 007549. Each black

notebook contains a number of photographs. I'd like you to

take a few minutes and look at them, and then I'd like to ask

you if you can identify any of the people in them. It's now

about 12:05. I wonder if we could take a break for about

ten minutes while you have the opportunity to do that.

- BREAK -

BLAKEY: For the record, let me indicate that it is

now 12:20. You were indicating that you did not know anyone

in the photo identification book?

MIRABAL: I'd like to clarify that I'm not very good

at recollecting people. Sometimes I can't distinguish my

children in a picture.

---

## Page 230

Mirabal Interview

Page 42.

BLAKEY: Let me direct your attention to photo No. 57

In the photo identification book and ask you if you can recall

that individual.

MIRABAL: Well, the face looks somewhat familiar.

BLAKEY: But you're not sure who it is?

MIRABAL: No.

BLAKEY: Okay. Then let's direct our attention to the

007549.

INTERPRETER: Zero, zero...?

LOPEZ: 7-5-4-9.

BLAKEY: You indicated that you could identify some

of the people in that book. I wonder if you would give us the

name and

the number.

MIRABAL: NO. 4

is myself. That's it.

No. 33

seems to me to be Rogelio Rodriguez, a comrade

who used

to work at the embassy with us.

No. 34. It seems to me that it was a Mexican. He was a

Mexican or a Cuban who used to work at the embassy.

I'm

not very sure. I don't remember his name. I just remember

having seen him there working on different things. Because

of his face he l00ks Mexican. I can't place him, though.

It seems to me that he's the same person wko fits your number

61. It seems to me that it is the same person in both.

pictures.

Then No. 44, which seems to be a comrade who used

to

work at the commercial office whose name I don't remember now.

Now I was looking at -- it seems to me that he resembles No. 1.

---

## Page 231

Mirabal Interview

Page 43.

MIRABAL: I told them that he used to work at the

commercial office. Then we have 1ll. It seems to me that

this man was Alberu, who worked

at the Embassy and who was

a painter. His name I don't remember. Alberu was his

last name. Then we have 120. This is Buenaventura, who

used to work at the Embassy, too. A young man. Buenaventura,

it seems to me that was his last name. This Buenaventura

is the same person in 157 and 158. And then now I'm look-

ing here. One hundred and fifteen seems to be again--

115. Then 116 is

Braun. She was a member of the

Mexican Communist Party who used to come to the Embassy

quite often. I mean, I'm not very sure if she was really

a member of the Party, but she used to come to the agency.

That's as far as I have recognized here. Some of them

are not very clear.

BLAKEY: Would you look at No. 34?

Could that be

Rolando Esteva?

LOPEZ: Rolando Esteva.

MIRABAL: I don't remember that name.

BLAKEY: Would you look at No. 81?

MIRABAL: But that one I mentioned to you--No. 34.

Yes, No. 34 was a Cuban or Mexican working at the Embassy.

I don't remember his name. I just recognize, the face as

a Cuban or a Mexican who used to work at the Embassy.

BLAKEY: Would you look at No. 81? Could his name be

Juan?

---

## Page 232

Mirabal Interview

Page

44.

MIRABAL: I have not seen him. That face I don't

remember.

BLAKEY: Would you look at No. 101? Could his name

Be Dr....

LOPEZ:

Ramirez Corea?

MIRABAL: I don't know him.

BLAKEY:

Okay. Would you look at No. 85?

MIRABAL: I don't know him.

BLAKEY (aside): (Is it him or her?)

LOPEZ (aside): (her)

BLAKEY: Looking at No. 85 -- could that be Luisa Calderon:

MIRABAL: I don't have a good recollection of her

because I saw her just

a few days but I don't have a

a recollection of her.

BLAKEY: Would you look at numbers 26 and number 27.

Is that face familiar?

MIRABAL: No.

BLAKEY: Could that be Ernesto Lehfeld Miller?

MIRABAL: I don't know him.

•...

BLAKEY: Mr. Mirabal, would you object if we took

your picture now?

We would like to have it for our files in

connection with...

MIRABAL:

I'm sorry that I'm sufféring from

inflammation of one of. my teeth and my face is somewhat swollen.-

a little bit swollen.

---

## Page 233

Mirabal Interview

Page 45.

BLAKEY: But you don't mind if we take your picture?

BUERGO: Before taking the picture, maybe you would

allow me to make a clarification, because maybe Comrade

Mirabal had forgotten. As you may remember, we had men-

tioned in the previous talks about Comrade Escartin had

some meetings with Comrades as part of an investigation

that was carried out by the Minister of Foreign Affairs in

1976. And Comrade Mirabal was one of the persons inter-

viewed on that occasion. And the conversation that we had

at that time coincides more or less with what has been said

here today. Maybe our good Comrade Mirabal could tell

through the Directorate that he was previously interviewed.

MIRABAL: Yes, when you asked me whether I had spoken

to anyone on another occasion, I had said that I never again

had spoken about that so

far. But when I said so far,.

meant including the Comrade in the process because I feel

this is a process, so I include Comrade Escartin in the

whole thing.

BLAKEY: The record--the record really ought to indi-

cate that that's the way I understood it and that I did

not understand you to say that you had not talked with Mr.

Escartin.

MIRABAL: Yes, I didn't mention that exactly because

he told me on that occasion that that talk wound end in a

process like this and it will start the whole

thing.

---

## Page 234

al Interview

46.

BLAKEY: The record really should be very clear that

e's no misunderstanding. I asked the question implicitly

ding . myself and MI. Escartin: And you answered

plicitly in the same way and I was not misled.

PREYER: Mr. Mirabal, we appreciate very much your

ing with us today. I hope this photograph will turn out

ir than some of those and I hope your tooth problem will

be much better.

INTERPRETER: 'Cause he doesn't want to laugh for

iicture.

BLAKEY: Well, while I'm waiting for my camera to warm

et me thank you for your time in what has obviously been

at imposition. And let me indicate that the time is

2:35 .

.. -

---