NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPT, REEL #6.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/31/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

104-10210-10030

MATERIAL REVIEVED AT CIA HEADQUARTERS BY

HOUSF SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSISSINATIONS STAFF MEMBERS

Released under the John F. Kennedy Assas fination

Records Collection Act of 1992

FILE TITLE/NUNDER/VOLUNE :

TransCaPT

(44 USC 2107 Note)

AIRO ITSELECATEC NW 53216 6/17/17

- KETLIL

INCLUSIVE DATES: S/ JILY 195H BANE 19EE

CUSTODIAL UNIT/LOCATION:

57-

ROOM:

DELETIONS, IF ANY:

DATE

RECEIVED

2:1.04 781

DATE

RETURNED

REVIEWED BY (PRINT NAME)

LICHANNE SALTIL

SIGNATURE OF REVIEWING OFFICIAL

NO DOCLIENTS MAY BE COPIED OR REMOVED FROM THIS FILE

APPROVED FOR RELEASE 1994

CIA HISTORICAL REVIEW PROGRAM

---

## Page 2

104-10210-10030

HER # 6

= iugust 1Eég

70618a0N

A. ... So that be can find a cocoa ianguaa.

so setier loa much ve have talied tolsy, in 1s impossible to believe that

you were there, in the baltic, etc.

2. I toid jos how I was.

so i nart to understard wiat 1s tie catcas; it in in no way undererendabie

to se -i you con inazine trat 1f a sa: here a counterintelligence officer,

or - at that ule -- 2n intelligence unfleer, if he was there, ie would

rezerter somethiie.

:. I told you wist I did.

ihat else could I have dore in 1 did not do that?

"at cise can I tell you?

I did 10s do anything eire tiere.

i. Perhaps it would le better to say, I vas sot trere .

II. I had ros been there, I toula say, I rover was there".

thy do I need this -- to get condused here?

A. If "I was rot there", then, of course, "I' did not do anything there.

5. I told you what I did.

A. Well, the last question for the daj --cor do you explain that serlfer you

sald you were there for quite a long tiae?

Earlier, you said that you had best on fugen island and somewhere else.

B. No; I ... just a uinute ... I did not say 1t that vay.

A. This 166 a fect; but then, you said that you sere not tinere.

You see?

APPROVED FOR RELEASE 1994

CIA HISTORICAL REVIEW PROGRAM

Why, why?

---

## Page 3

104-10210-10030

- i?

1. Tiat is not a justifiention.

This is not the tall of co intelaigener offie....

A ten can make a mistase; liu you cannot ry at the leginning that you

vere there and there end there, sud ter win they aur you abour 1t, i1r

none difficulties 1a ansierra; and toch you say that you do

not know wing

you said it and that you were not there.

E. Again, in this case, they with res tolleve

1.669

((%G; A and B speak at tile aste tis..))

The questica about se was resolvei chile I wes in loscor on leave in Jure

1952.

Even the question of sy study war diacurael.

I refused to take trilaire.

Men the decision was rinde to seid re su the (fury intelliernes)) colni.

At that period of tine, at that wine, at sunt tine wier the decision wes

múe ard dú vas declard to and re to duat ruine 1r covetsk, the joint 225

1n Fontosk, ard tise Idea was 10. sud me bo Berlin and from there to Postock.

i. I buch about that and the rest.

My gucation was from this fiell, lut was not posed that way.

1. I did not get there; wisy?

Because the base was toved, was sovine ....

r. ((In the beginnirg)) ... you said

115 0

you iad been there, but then you said

you had

not been there and you said

that you did not know why you had said

you had been there -- "I was not there.

B. Because, actually, it happened that I as directed to zo to Rostock; I did

not go there; why did I not so there?

Because the base had been soved, and they did not now where it as to sove

Iron Rostock.

A. In life, It goes this way - 11 a man das tiere

---

## Page 4

104-10210-10030

-3 -

P. 1nd I said that I could cot do there -- dy slical I do tron ore city to

another?

Make a decinion on there I en to do, "i! I will en tiere".

A. ((Signals end of seciirg.))

I do rut west you to becois upset.

---

## Page 5

104-10210-10030

*

( (3 August 1555 SeBsion))

E. ((Asks for a cigarette; speaks in a very low volce.)) You know, I vest

so say a vord about Soretsi, Prosorstiy tray.

You know, it 18 not just sy menory

....

It is another thing -- pochays i en confuse: alout the kray, kut there is

sonthing conr-cted with "Soretst ij tin oe. (Frizorckly) -- either

primorrkly Rayon or Sovets By the Era.

tra why?

You knox, I was thinking -- must in it:

Somehca I have connected Soretck with Erloorsily.

The thing is that yourself sull, 'Fore 1o Soretsk" ....

There are nany Sovetsks ....

"Here is Sovetsli." -- apparentin, in all proiability, to lifferenciate this

Sovetsk fron another .. this vetst.

I have in mind the Sovetsk "by the sea (priorsily)", In order to differentiate

it fros another -- this is way, in no memory, Soveteis 13 bosethira connected

with "primorskly (by the sea)" ... either "Soretsk Prisorsity" or "Soretsk of

Prinorskly Rayon"' ... bell, jovetsi by the sas.

Now, another thing -- this Sortsk in a very stall place; it is not even a

cits; there was no rauken tiere ... nothing.

well, precisely, "Sovetsk by the sea", in ty serory....

in l'ell, if "Sovetisk by the sea", wiat else?

B. It could be this way ... It could he this way ....

I do not remender, I do not remember.

It could be this ... "Kaliningrad Oblast, City of Soretsk by tke sea" or

"of Primoroissy Rayon"... I do not know.

I, how ... vell, Sovetsk ty the sea... It poisted out "Sovetsk -- by the sea".

In цу тепогу, 1t 16 "Sovetsk, Prisorskly Kray".

...+.

I myself understand: you have reprosched le for my ignorance -- that I do

not koow geography, although i graduated frou an institute ....

I know very well that there is only one Prinorskly Kray -- in the Far Best;

there 16 no Primorskly Kray here.

SESHET

---

## Page 6

104-10210-10030

Wryt

I have thought about it --wy Perora'j Kray'l

It could he that during the vut tili was One of tim fronts ... DEino-sksy

ragon (a ragon ly the cea) ... 522163/krsi (a cosatal Kraj)"...

'artror'ye (coastal aren)".

Ou the rap, you yourself coe tout were is a Frimorst" ed a "Frinor'ys"

... .

i ind not seen the map before unis; ey did not sion 1t to me ....

".. cuhing indicates thay there

is coccinin. ...

"artorskig" . Scretsk.

i. That there is

...there is in lovezor in kniiringred oblast which is luceted

on a spit.

Lo sell, 100%, one mirute ... not ca in ault, defore you go out un tie spit.

I will tell you even nore -- sviet.r is Just a littie place ... Sovetik ...

there is ... a narrOW-gauje railis; ... ¿ut it does not go unto the spit.

The mairow-gauge railway ient to Iiluijsà... Sovetsk... tiere vas a checi-polit

(chlagbaus) before the spit... they chocked pasces ... Soretsk ... Refore

coing out on the spit.

i. Inesmuch as you have raised wili quec.ion, I wanted to remini you that rg:in

you were wrong.

P. About what's

A. Mien you said that there wis no railw

I intentionally lletened to you aid did sot interrupt.

B. There 1o no railway; there in a narrow-isage track.

A. I am talking about the railia; fran soliningrad to Baltiysk.

B. There is absolutely no railuor to lalilysis, and there 1s no railvay or the spit.

A.. The railvay was there before the war, during the war, and after the war; It

vas built by the Gerans ... the devil knurs when, and it exists to the.

precent day.

: 42

TAIL: MET

Matthat

---

## Page 7

104-10210-10030

.i,.

1 :n.= 319

o.far..

+,+

i.. is cannot coutradict tre frein; it sur tre mien instruged ween the Ge taus

8ot cut of there.

I. There 18 ... I am tellig tol a.. you say lie do the rap on. to dalliltured.

Yos canant get to curetch from loceri tician ialinirigrad ty railway, no.

You can do fros lislinirere to mist ken i losed train, because there 15

the narror-gawe railway Eros boretch in inferderedo an to i3 the forter

Gerran town of (Trants?); tile li a morero area ta liortin Prubsia.

A. lie are tallills about Briilis...

! E. There cas 10 road to Baltijit, c8 lin ..?i.

Trere kes only a highway.

in There das, ard it to there to tie precent ilse; 1i uas there vefore the war,

during the war and after the mur.

i. liell, I travelled ... lù is a rascon place.

i. I do it knos how you truelied; 1f jou did not to ky crein, it 18

soiething else.

Во йо, 50, по.

1. Mother question -- that there 1s a railrosi; last tire, jou told me that

jou resenver very veil that ... wien you arrived in talininerad, there was

no railroad ... you got there ig hitch-hilis.

E. There 16 Do way you can set to laltlysi ly railroaa.

1. Perhaps you went by car, not by rail; but there is a railroci.

B. You go this way -- Moscow - ¿aliniruzral.

1. Railroads 60 in all directions from sailnineral, including to Baltlysi.

Б. Но.

Well, then it would have been nost easy for ve to tave transferred at the

station to go to Baltlysk.

-%..

-SEGRET

:

...

---

## Page 8

104-10210-10030

-"-

i cos 18

no dell, let us to back.

You have tried to correct yourse! ((ly)) sayin, reish by tie dei.

Int us ray 50-- it codule; la, sll le deme, a carson in tie iny -e Ril,

ecocially, in Inteillance a to do not ators inutes to nia la tre way

you said; they addrees then to tre nilitig met Close, uairus tie firld

•ist office auster)).

:. Ho ... even ... for ... the far inct -- "Covetskiya Gavan', Mintery Urit

such-and-such" ... altrough we were not in Soretskeya üevan'.

has, you know why?

is. I do not kiow.

E. Fecause it tares the letters a sew montlis to Leu there.

in thy a few nonths?

i. jell, rot a sow months, but a long time, if one will vrite to the allitary

üit, as a darine ta it a Hell Post Called do. duel-ord-auch •

so to you knoi how the inti field poital djsten was arranteed?

1. I do not kirt.

1. Is you do not know, then it 1s rut recencary to say "It will take e fer konths"!

I:. jell, aot a few months; it üill take a lore time.

ind in the far Fast, they vrote, "Clty of soretskaya Garan', Military Unit

such-und-such".

A. And did they also write which oblast or kray?

E. Fio, simply "City of Sovetskaya Gaian"".

"'A. There 16 only one city of Sovetsiaya Gavan'; It 16 & large city.

Pernaps you ere confused.

Е. Ко, по.

Sovetsk, Primorskly ... Prizorssiy'... in IV Rewry, Sovetsk, Frisorsisly Krey -

although I understasd very well that there is no kray there ... well, I ... I

..

do not know.

SECRET

---

## Page 9

104-10210-10030

-i .

in shat wouid you say to "Isse is a Soretck ly, the ten (icretsi prisorsesy),

in lentrerad Chlast"?

so slist?

i. There 15 a Sovetes by the sea, In icileeral Orlact.

vell, wuet are you saying - in tenuered danst'?:

This 15 the Fearth Mary Flost.

iere you ever in the Sovetse in ie: lied Gulast?

i... lever.

A. Are jos sure of this?

2. I do not reezber a Sovetck in Iringrad Clasa.

¿. Do jou reseaber a Prizorse in Leningrad Obinst?

i. iio.

Leningrad Oblast?

jo, so.

I know, in Leuingrad Oblast ... want ail of places?

Fefore the war ... destroretsk, lastystkino ... this is near Leningrad.

Tiere is i Lisiy los ...

:. Lyssy or Lisig?

2. Lisiy; Listy lios ... a place heavily infested ultia nosquitoes.

A. Are you sure that you never were in a covetsk in Leningrad Oblast?

B. I never vas.

Peone mean

A. In a Primorsk in Leningrad Oblast?

Б. Ко, по, до, по.

SECRET

---

## Page 10

104-10210-10030

- ; -

..

no Very well; de will retur do its questio. in tire.

Cuts does not explain what you nave beer tratis tu chirin to ta.

"here is no jovetsk in tie viae pou are incane arcai.

ad to one ever wrote "Surets. primorshi

2. 1th tin indicetion tist die as lever, minorrly dres, Primorsaly Ragon

(or "covetsk of a coastel iraj, or a cordesi rajo: )).

:. Chete as to Prinorsily on in delinlaned dilast, und Kaliningrad Cblast

"as ict called arnorskig real (for a dasuri ireg )).

ill of this, of course, forced ne 10 shire. that your keroüledge 1s too 11itle

for one to has worked and serred there.

:. I have told jou how it was.

:. The last toe, I told you to thilor alout tuls questica; I think you kev:

thought very vell ard row jun ere tryin: is Insiet upon this or to find

cone sort of justificatio:.

¡o jo; I la tryire oily to provo do jou that i nar there.

... Lus this does not prove anytilas;

and our words - "a vas, I wiri --

"stroof, do not say anythie.

F. You understand -- I carnot Cir: triul.

:.ieil, let us go cack a 11ttle.

Is one is to believe what you said abou die last date, the date of jour

entry into the organs of the ID, 1n Here: 1983 ....

В. Хеб.

i. Every officer knows exactly the date on wilch he entered, because 1t 15

necessary to know it in many cases; but - aithough you talk about your

poor sasory -- could you recall the exact date on which you were accepted

for sork?

Because this 1s of great and important sigaificance for promotion, for rari,

sor lorgevlty, etc., etc.; every officer knows this.

I vould like for you to recall it; you should know on what date you vere

accepted.

SECRET

...

---

## Page 11

104-10210-10030

- i: -

i. I do rot rezeniser.

In the Illiäle of March.

1o' Let us talk a little about the structure ard crealizetion uf the 3id when

FORTYA was in power and in the tize tridisinly after hir; nace for se che

cirectorates that existed at that tire irtie ID.

1:. i(Peuse.!) The First Directerate, second directorate ... tue First Chies

so Cecond Chief ....

1. ill, what did the First Chies Directorate do:

1:. i(rause.)) Intelligerice.

:. The second Chief Directorate?

i. Counterintelligence.

i. let us pause on this -- are jou sure?

I. About whet?

1. That the First Chief Directorats as Iut-lligerce, and the Secord Cilef

Directorate, counterintelligences

i. sure.

There was one change letween 19:3 w.til Jurusty 1554 (Corobebly seant "1954")),

after FERIYA, when KRUGLOV as linister of the MD ... after BERIYA.

For a short period of tine, the Flint Cilef Directorate was Called the Escond,

and the Second was called the Firit.

Inis was the one change -- for a short time.

ho First of all, your inforuation is not correct.

If the first was called the Second, and the Second, the First, why ves this done?

5. I do not know why it vas done.

A. It vas announced to all employees, and it was explained by such a change

hed taken place.

CECRET

---

## Page 12

104-10210-10030

55005

- 11-

F. I do rot reserber any such explanations.

Why?

I tell you -- for a short perioi of tice, tie decond Directorate was tie First,

und the firet was the Second.

:. jell, that is right.

I. Zut this was not under ESRTlA, It wes wror iNUGlo%.

1. Past 1s not right.

This 15 another one of those confirsatiors that it is liglly unliely tiat

you korised with the MVD.

"Ist who has vorised there hroas exactly when the charge was rede.

You are mistaker by a mile (('51l0 ser)).

.. This was urder KhUGIV....

There was sorething ....

in thist other directorates?

i. Te Titri Directorate.

. Mast did the Intra Directorate do?

I. Mlitary cousteritelligence.

Tren, the Fourth Directorate

i. What did it do?

B. The intelligentsia.

A. Be more precise -- the one word, "irtelligentsia", covers a lot of ground.

B. Work azong uriters, astists ... all counterintelligence work ....

If we take counterintelligence work as a hole ... work against foreigners ....

A. No, no; we are talking about the fourth Directorate, nothing else.

b. The work anor the Intelligentsia of all types, excluding, of cow'se, (those

1n)) Industry; vor's against nationalists (NG).

The Fourth Department -- why do I remember the Fourth?

Siff:

---

## Page 13

104-10210-10030

- j: -

Lecaure enoloree ZIRDENCY, on the Mire in aruens, when i ceDe 0a duty

ir larch 1953 ... he left 8:2 worlind

:. And the next directorate:

I. the Filth Directorate.

i. what ald it do?

So Industry, all irdustry.

no what else was the Flith Directorate callei?

2. It was the forter EKU, 2i13; and the fourth was called PU.

"This was before oy tire.

:.. The next directorate?

E. The Sixth; transportation.

:. The next?

P. Tie Seventh.

i. Mut did it do:

I. Checiing; Installations -- the investigetire apparetus, and survelilance of

Soviet citizess.

A. ind the next directorate?

B. The Eighth.

A. What did It do?

B. Coding and decoding.

i. The next?

5. The Ninth; the Guards Directorate.

i. The next?

Pu: Teath: the drealla Diraciraio.

---

## Page 14

104-10210-10030

- 13 -

-.*.

The rext?

1. That is all of the directorates, exuent for the Special Depertecian r.. Ch,

jes, the Investigations lepertrent

in thist else?

i.. Tlie Special Dopertrents.

:. linat special Depertients do jou dion?

%. The First Special Lepartmert.

". What ald it do?

D. The First Special Department - I thlnk it 1s wint 15 son called the Records-

Archives Departzent - (Vehetro-grihirnyy otdol) -- VAO.

i. The Records-irchives Departont?

i. At prusent.

ho Was did the First Special Deperiment do lefore?

¿ Too same -- archives, reconis.

I an telling you as I renerver it.

I en aircia here ....

linybe the First Special Department dia sometuing eise; I do nut semenber.

A. Kext?

B. The Second Special Departrent.

i. What did it do?

B. This is audio intercept -- "Marusya", "Nedyusha".

A. Toe sext?

B. The Third Special Department ard the Fourth Speclal Department.

The Third, I know, is where the documents were made - cover documente.

---

## Page 15

104-10210-10030

- 14 -

Tue F11th, I do rot rememier.

Tie Sixth Special Department --

relatratlon of correrpendence.:

h. jell, what other departments!

È. The lonesdant Departart.

Ch, jes, the idinistrative Couply Leortent, cozd; tue ladical Depaitreat

was part of it.

ho Whit other departnents ald jirectorates?

I. The Koresdant ... yes

..•

Yes, the departsent -- I will tell you ron ... wiat vas It calleas

Department "K" -- this departrent haudled counterintelligence in atoaic

Industry and at all enterprises counected with ursniun riniry;.

A. What other departients?

B. ((Fnuse.)) That 15 all; I do noi recter more.

No lie are talkine about the then when tilD alrendy had been orgenized, after

STALLi's death.

3. Yes, jos, jes.

A. tell, let us repeat -- wrat did the first Special Department do?

B. I think ... I do not insist ... to ry thinising, thet was "Resords", tecsuse

not It 1s called the Encords-irchiver Legartrent.

A. Ilist was the First Special Denarteent called uner the MCB, before the death

of STALIN?

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not knou.

Department "A"?

No... I do not resember.

Look; thy do I say Departeent "A"?

Because -- 100k; you fill out requests for checis or agents, and there vere

old requests, utere it was written, "Department '1'", with a red stripe across

---

## Page 16

104-10210-10030

- 1) -

sites.

1. Ind the second Special Deparent -- dat des it called?

13. Tiat 1s wiat 1ü was called -- tre deconi

•ecici Diarteent.

h. üell, in the MoB.

2. I do not iron this; I do not tron.

1.. Tre Taird?

1. I do not kror.

.. The Fourch?

B. I do not inca, I do not inca.

:. The Fifth?

B. I also us rot know.

A. The Gaith?

2. I do not knor, I do not inor.

i. fiell, miat othei airectorates wore there?

I. There vere no other directorates.

dio And to what did GUIAG telong at thet tinei

T.. (?I understand you?)

The Corvoy Troops (Konroyayye Voysia); but when I came in there was none.

GUL'G -- Chief Directorate of Camps.

I do not know.

There was none.

I do not know.

Is. And what happened to the Lorder TroOps?

B. Ah ... That is right -- tbe Border Troops! exactly!

For a period of time, they were in the HUD.

1. He are talking nod of that perlod, and it is rot important where they vere.

B. Both of then ... Coie! Directorate

---

## Page 17

104-10210-10030

•

- 1' -

•A. The lorder Proofs?

b. right.

A. What happened to die Internal Proogs?

B. ((Lone, pause.)) I have not heard about them since 1903.

ho Well, where were they in 1653?

I. vell, they were in the liSt system, üut i do not reca where.

i. What -- you have not heard about ther since 19S3:

They ard their decorations were witter up in the newepapers.

D. Well, I do not inoi.

When I wes workind, there were rone of these ....

i. Her is it you do not know?

They exist ever. ror.

They write about them openly in the newspapers.

I. lict in tine KGB, not in the !'GN.

I do not krow... in the IND, but rot in the foe.

A. liell, where were they Ir. 1953?

What happened to them?

I. I do not insist upon this, but I tira, I thiiik that GUl'd aid the Ecaroy Troops

were given over to the ID after the tG3 - to ty thinkirü, lut I as rot sure.

A. But we are talking about 1953; everything in thie MVD was lumped treether.

There was no place to which to traneter them there was no KGB as vet.

B. I do not know, I do not know; I do not remember; I do rot knos.

A. libat happened to the Prisons Direcorate (Tyureznoye Upravleniye), veere your

triced, Amaras ((NOBULOV)), was Chlei?

2419

---

## Page 18

104-10210-10030

(Pauseal, I do rot know.

((rause.)) You see hou jou are telalia on then duayes was Giles aa

well, then was this?

If icover In January 2953, ties das Norilre in GUiDe?

It means it was in 2500... reyta in aste, age, asia, 155.

^ For your Information, Assyal ace Palet of tir Prisone Directorste up to tre

*Ine BER YA vas arrested.

If you worked there, you must ther.

E. I kace that re was arrested o. lazyet.

:. Everyone knows that ne cao the Chier of the Prisons Directorate.

Every dog knous that; score in no recret about 1t.

I. I do sit krow.

A. And 10 is nonsense baat lin last corced ax $3222.

E. ly frierd?

I fui lia only once.

in you tried to proic ....

Bo lio, T was not provira ... I Elzoli as sejire that I had seen hia.

A. Well, do you remember any other directorates?

3. I do not kno..

A. What happened to GUSZOSDOR?

Do you know what GUSHOSDOR is?

B. I have heard of GUSTSDOR, but it was not there in sy ties.

A. If it was not there in your tie, where is It now?

B. ((Long pause.)) I do not inti, I do sot know.

In the systen of ... I know thet in the Militle system ... Iight now ....

---

## Page 19

104-10210-10030

-1..

s. de will tois about the tilitia a: the sent pection.

Miere vos the Militia deen jou erected contre lo tre lib?

F. (:I0 cas combired?) It was in the 190.

The iCE vas cosbined.

i. isse das the Milliia?

1i. In the it.

A. vicere was the Chief Directorate of Lilitia Iccateù at tiat tire?

B. ((Long pause.)) I do not know exactiji I do not kuor, I do not iron.

I ords insa that there is a lure tallula, on the street where the telestapl

o?f1ce 16.

1. liell, everyore trous that - it in In the telenhose directory; I an aokng

Where 10 vas in 1953.

D. I do not taou, I do not inou.

.. ((Peuce.)) tell, joa morted there.

¡Ten did she Militia sie to detres rect?

I. It cas there, oa Cearer, In 2953.

A. For your information, no.

Do jou resenter any other directorstes there?

B. No.

1. Must I always remind you?

B. I do not inov; I told you what I snor.

A. This azala, shous that your knolledge is too scanty.

B. I cannot help you here; I an telling jou what I knou.

((Pause.)) There is only one third I have not yet mentloned: In 1953, there

sas -- durleg BERIYA's time -- trere was the Inspectorate (Inspeltsiya).

A. hell, se vill vrite "Inspectiorate" -- there was such a thing.

J

---

## Page 20

104-10210-10030

- 19 -

the happened to PalatiNi

ü. He wes arrested.

%. Is ie allve, or das he execused?

I. deli, no 16 alive, allve.

A. isnt else wes there?

l. I do not know any more.

ho lihat happened to the Directurute of the safereepine of State ireasures; under

..what aunber was 1t, and what did 11 20?

5. I do not know, I do not krow.

A. Wes there a Secretariat?

I. Yes, there was the Secretariat.

A. Vico was the Chief of the Secretarist:

T. I do not know.

4. DurinE, LERIYA's time?

E. I do not krod, I do not broi.

1.. Before BERIYA?

B. I also do not know.

A. After BERIYA?

3. ((Pause.)) I know only DOEROKHOlOV.

..:.

What year was 1t r - 1955, 19548

There was doZrokEoroy.

A. Was there also a Party Committee?

B. This is not a directorate.

1. Dut t!in also 1s In the 1D: riptits

-

---

## Page 21

104-10210-10030

1

- 20 -

I. lio, 10; I do not resenter.

If jou will let re, I will regio fron tula end, frun the rost recent yenic.

ApproxIately fros if? - VIVal.

FrOs 1959 to 1952 -- WARFUNIN.

Tuare here two men before MAduNDi, I know: Sarcerer, teacer.

Tiat 18 all.

In wiat jears they were there, I do tot know.

There vere two mer. terore 1959 -- iansay end DesoRter.

In 1859 -- MRIVILi, and 1n Iúe -- VICato.

A. MET'UNTIi?

D. MUFUNIl; he forzerly was the Deputy Chief of the Fourt Directorate.

.. But was there a kezuonol Committeei

I. There was a Konsosol Committee.

^. Who were the Secretaries?

¿. I do nos remember, I do not kron.

à. What ottor dircetorates were theres

i. I do not lanow.

A. lino was Chief of the First Chief Directorate wren you enterea?

I. I do not know, I do not linow; I do not remember.

1. Veil, whom do you rerenter to have coen a Chief of the First Chisf Directorate?

E. SAKHAROVSKIX, when he became ((Chileí)).

A. And when did he become Chief?

B. I do not know, I do not know; I have no idea (XG); he was not in in 1953, but

who was, I do not know.

A. Who was his Deputy at that time when he was Chlef?

---

## Page 22

104-10210-10030

.

((org pause.)) I renester oue rme for toce dears; it sunt have beer:

'....

FELOSETEY cas e Deputy, until the srrest of hErrin.

; A.

For your irscration ....

You know eristly that SMIROVSKTY as not Chief at that tire.

¡B. I tell you die. I do not renenuel hier ie mes; I do not iror.

I sold jou seet I do not know who was the Chief of the First Directorute in 1953.

i. leitiar FICEYEV nor FORCIKOV wor Deputies at that tie.

&. FEDOSETE: -- Lefore the arrest of DORIY: --:as the Deputy Chief of tle First

Directorate.

A. He was rot -- he was there, lui lie was not the Deputy.

Fürther, who was the Chief of tin docond chief Direcioretes

i. io wes his Deputy?

1. STUDIYALO!, ORIEIOV, IYALIN.

1. The Chief cl the Third Directorate?

I. I do not reseaber.

I renenber, fros CUSKOV's time; GUSKOV becare ... when?

Later, later; who the chief was, I do not know, I do not remedier.

A. The Fourth Directorate?

B. I also do not know who was the Chief; I do rot know.

A. The Fifta Directorate?

B. I also do sat knor.

A. The Sixth Directorate.

B. I knou that MIL'SHIIN vas Chief of the Sixth before the arrest of BERIYA.

A. A real Russian name!

---

## Page 23

104-10210-10030

- :2 -

ib. lie 15 a jed.

A. The Seventh Directorate?

A. Neil, who was, when you care to sore?

B. I do not remember, I do not rerences.

When I case to work ....

Please understand me ....

Huw could I ke Irterested et that tis?

I was a rev employee; I was introduced to new work .....

• I could not fizure it out.

1. Well, if you had been there nily oue jeer, I would not ast; it because you

Insist you woried there for l1 jorrs

You do not have to study these tings a it cores by itsele; you icok trrougl

dueuments,

and evea te you do not tron you nevertheless would dira cut.

D. You torised there, and you kror how zany charges took place there.

do Kno was the Culet of she Elekh Directorate:

B. I do not knox, I do not inow, i do nos inor.

A. Tie Hinth?

B. After SERIYA's death, USTINO!.

A. After PERIYA's death or his arrest?

B. After the arrest, after BERIYA's arrest -- USTILOV.

A. The Tenth?

B. Krenlia Coumandant It. Gen. VeDENLi.

A. When did he become ((Chief))?

B. I do not know.

1. Ar you sure it vas the lenth. Directorate?

-PEARET

---

## Page 24

104-10210-10030

-23 =

B. It seers, the Tenth.

iater, not too long ago... a fer years, It come under the linth Dimctorate --

this licherdent Directornts.

A. It was never the lento.

B. The Tenth; 1t was the Tenth; rayte, li course, sonernat later thar 1953,

but I renenter tils directoret..

A. Who was Chief of Investigations?

I. I do not remember; I do not kao:.

A. Who was Chief uf the First Special Deprtrent?

B. I do not know.

1. Of the Second?

B. Before BERIYA's arrest, MRiser.

ho Then?

B. Then, ZABOLOraY.

A. Then?

B. Aid rost recently, ZiMARCERO

1. Of the Third?

B. At one time, It was Lt Gen BEL'CliKo.

A. In 1953?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Of the Fourth?

B. I do sot know.

A. The Fifth?

B. I do not know.

A. The Sixth? .

- SEGRET

---

## Page 25

104-10210-10030

- 24 -

B. Fron the end of 1953, SCHINOCHISIT; fronte

end or i953.

he ind when you same in?

3. I do not resember, I do not knox.

Host recently, SuCHEeCHIN:.

i. Where did he cose frus?

E. He was in the Second Onter Directorate in 193 -- Seeretary Of Siniorty

organization.

ho who was head of the Secretariet?

B. I do not remember, I do not kroa.

ho You said FATehli was Chief of the Inspectorate.

A. Vip was Chief of BozU?

B. I do not renenter, I do not reester.

i. Chief of the Vomandant Depart-ert?

3. I thirk it wes always BROViN, col ERovri.

A. Departseat 'K"?

B. It was General ... It was Colchei IVov, IDOV.

Later, he becase a major generei.

A. Who was Chief of GULAG?

B. I do not knos, I do sot know.

A. Who was Chie? of the Border Troops?

B. MASLEIIIKOV.

A. Wiat happened to HASTETNIKOV?

I. He shot himself.

A. And then who becene Chief?

SA1D2

Lad.

---

## Page 26

104-10210-10030

- 25

-

E. I cannot say for sure, but after lnl...ldi, It war raidov.

Áo iho has the Chief of the Interizi troops!

E. I do not benew.

1. Iie Chief of the Prisous Directoraie?

E. i do not inor, I do not knon.

i.

GUSHOSD0R?

B. I do not Enor, I do rot know.

A. iso was the Chief of the Militia?

B. I do nos knox, I do not remerber.

1.. You still canot say who was the Chief

ot the Secretariat?

E. io, no.

A. When dia DOESOrTIONOV beccre ((Chief))?

I. I thirk, in ISst, at the beglining

of long.

A. "here dia be cone frco?

B. Fron the CO (( CC CPSU)).

#. Did he case directly fron the CC?

E. I heard that he had worked in the CC.

A. Well, when did he work there?

B. Before coming to the organs ((of State security)).

A. Of course, he was working before the organs.

But 11 be came to be head of the Secretariat in 195% or 1955, where was be

before that?

B.

In the CC.

STORET

---

## Page 27

104-10210-10030

: A...

i liell, thai 19 sot correct.

((Pause.)) You nave neved the decretary of the ferry Comnitice for re.

Do you not remerver the secretery of the conconol Cormittee?

E. I do not remember.

..Who was chief of the Medicai Departrent?

D. 131 Gen Ned Sent loVIROV, N0/I0%.

^. Trea?

E. I shias, then and up to row, kilmore, SImoVo. .

¿ iño was chief of tie Trensportatton Directorate, Department?

E. Up to the arrest of BERIYA 1t was MIL'SIElN.

i. I es talking about the Transportation Departrent of the Khozu.

I. Os, I do not krus this; i do not inor, I do not know.

A. Into what depertments was hozU divided?

P. I do not know, I do not know; I cannot ... I know the Finence Departrent,

the Medical Department ....

I no not knoi.

Á. *ho was Chie? of the Judicial Fureau under the Minister at that tires

E. I do not noi.

". Did you ever basr of 1t?

B. I do not resember.

A. Think of sone other department.

((Pause.)) "th0 was Chief of the Special Court (Osoboye Soveshchaniye)?

3. I do not know.

A. What did they do with Special Fureau lio. I (("Spetsbyuro" - Executive Action))

¡a 19533

SEGRET

---

## Page 28

104-10210-10030

-41.

2. I do not inco unai the "Spacirl Purer"

1c.

A. Did you reier bear of It:

T. Speciri Bureau lio. 1?

1io, I $0:05 know 1t.

1i. What happesed to the Search (Roarshhoye) Directorate?

t. I do a0t krod, I do not klow.

A. Ferueis ju, can reverter rone otter departeents and directorstes.

D. ÷0, 1501: * WiSE I krow.

i reli, 1f in are to believe you, sin flut Epecial Departnert hercled

archires, etc.; where vas It Iceat-u?

1. : used to save to do to the piron ciri iepertreno, on Kiror Stract ... fo=

a check.

Tuis cheat is me so to ser, not fur an arena, tut a clock of the records.

.. ast sird oe record?

I. If teere are any files or compromisino materials on soreone or usher.

And it still is on Kirov Street.

do there on Kiror Street?

D. it the very beginning of Kiror Street, 1f you go froü Dzherzhlnskiy Sguare

on :1rov Street, on the left side of the street on which Puliding lio. 2 15.

A. cell, please tell me, if you know -- where was the First Bpeclal Department

located?

Give se an answer; 1f you do not inor, say so.

B. I told you vat I know.

A. It 1s rot entirely right.

B. Hoir - not entirely right?

SEGRET

500

---

## Page 29

104-10210-10030

- 00.

Tis in itere the checas were eate er circuire.

On kiror treet, througa the Pirat toilet an attrala.

in the agenü, In Busiding Ro. &, denserine; Fazz: 201, In the barerent.

dea, the exit illes vere at Suborce in 2, äu1lüire 12 ....

o i case 15 being casáned; init, it in ted fou nare a tar

.. ..

1. Yes.

:.. ... ihna jou are supposed to creci. an voter there are dry corpromisire

esteriais on bin -- le nas Lorn in Woocci; he ilved in dre Soviet Urion;

he dent abrosd severel tines on bustrero, end he 18 not e iGB esployes,

but en ordinary soviet eoverrment emploine.

Were would you check his cut:

You liare to fird out all the conprouising pateriale on ain.

i leil, on firor Street, you reguent a chart.

i. veil, I say an he was born in tie soviet trion, in loscar; he wert abroad.

severel tires; lie 1s a 20jsl Sortet disiren.

For sose reason, you neve to ciresi:....

2. 41I of the checks and indiceo in the ircsives vere rode on Kirov Street,

with the exception of those on the ogants, having a red tard, which were

checked in the basebent of Buildia lio. 2.

A. And where else could a check he made?

P. In the Militia.

¿. Why in the Milftla?

For what?

.I. I do not know.

1.11

are do the delodime one all die contiets locked?

---

## Page 30

104-10210-10030

- 42.

A. leil, tow could you work, to clines itie, li jun did rat tase were tie

treblues on the convicte inse?

I. I do not trica.

I vail tell you cily that, intes 2u:3, Wen I care Any tiere deie do fary

elecks, different checks, tune a dai redise

Fros 1253, until noso recerely i tuate our only one check.

call, later o.. bell a.. to check through the Firet Special Departmet of

the ND and tre UND of the cop.

Test is all; that le the caly cier..

On one sheet, if you wait to, you can irice out two at ore time; one to the

Firet Special Departuent and to ¿ne UND.

and the secord check, on eLents.

Earlier, there had been zany checks, lifferent checks; Larg.

Eecause when you look through the old files on agents -- God krows what kind

of checks there vere ....

^ Please a let us not mare tlanes re lit you are seylez des so, up to

ight; this is not the say it was in deed, for jour inforiation.

jou worked there for li jense: dou torole? shooks, cardeciarly, in die

early days;

earlier, you snid tunt woo nare doing only checks, and so forth.

¡ sere you tue example of ann, a loses: resident, who was corn In loscow

and who went ahroad several tiner, sunt ly the Soviet forearment; 1t is not

importart to wilch countries -- the United Stetes, England, or Austria, Gerueny,

Sieden; anywhere -- and you isd to ebeck him, check he cat.

B. I vrote out a checa, one copi, to the First Special jepartsent, and to the

Records-Archives Departzert; this is one clieck, one sheet.

The second ((kind of check)) is in the agent netvork.

You yourself do not carry this check; you give it to the secretary, and for

the agents ....

A. The second, for the agerts; well, further?

B. That 16 all.

You can nake a check like this, aise --ve checked in anotber way; he called

the Seventh Directorate ....

---

## Page 31

104-10210-10030

- -

- 39 -

...

vell, jou can phare the iddress durned, if jua do to= knud the addresu,

but kron the surnace, firet rune end plougale sul the jear ef birtr....

!.. Meli, I do not vart to 60 into sue: detali.

Let us soy that jou inue the adireas, jou enda tie Jay of 11r11.

Do Then I wilte out the check.

A. I carrot understard in any day a in you tou dead to say, to jo you indeed

not ince the einplest thires; jou minos tven check the bost inple persoa

*live.

1. I told you now I did it.

i. It Just canrot be the vey jos told me, and 1t never was, there in an

entirely different procedure.

The ore thing you said was about tie tirst Special impartment, and you mixed

up ever that.

The vaj you expiatred it, a sa: who does not knox acout it would not under-

stand s thing ....

((Pause.)) I will dive you another problen -- to cueck kro Jani who works

in the lierican Betassy; he recoired a vise and arrived to sace up this

percent position of First, Zecord, or Third Secretary or whatever you wish.

• Nicw, check him 0dt.

1. I wilte out a check to the l:0 -- that 1s one; and I write out a secona,

because perhaps he had been in the coviet Union sarlier and had worked here;

ard the second, I rite to the POU (Feroye Glaroye Upravlarlye, tie First

Chief Directorate)).

A. Well, what 1s in the PGU?

B. It is called the Operational Records üepartnent; the First Chlei Directorate

has its own archives.

A. Hell, what do you get fror there?

B. Perbaps there is sode data os him in the irchives, in the records of the

First Chief Directorate.

---

## Page 32

104-10210-10030

- 31 -

ho what kind of data is ther:?

D. lieli, perhaps he hes put wade: survelllane screwdre, or sayia die asce

1s in some files.

i. Hell, in 1953, you were worising on cheerine, jou worked with the dilss

mostof the tiao, etco; where seve the irchives on the ICU at that tir: --

let us rey in 1953, 15542

I. I cernot sey for sure - in 1953 er: Averices were ness the lohibition;

they had a cuilding there reer tre saniti.

Inter -- I cannot say rhich joar tai sure: in 2519... they sere at

¡Isel'rjz Strect (perculos); ned, sunt recentl, do desal'su; Street in

the seme builling as the lltcher asioni.

in Well, who was the cülef of tils de artarit?

I. I do not krow, I do not kron.

Fros what tias, I do notinon -a ta culas was zaurav.

1.. Continus further, you checked him in tir First Speciul Departrent ari tre

PGU; what next?

3. That is the entire check.

1. Please --I do not want to elve you a lecture about checising; 1i jou knoa,

tell me.

If you do not know, do not ray anything.

B. I told you what I knoi.

hell, alright - you osk se, and I arsver what I know.

A. He will go tack a little -- when BERIYA took over the Ministry of Interial

Affairs and the MCB and the iCB vere coabined, what were the first and

Second Chief Directorates?

B. I do not keow what they were.

There was and existed, before the First Chief Directorate, the Coumittee for

Information; I know that PEDOTOY was Chief of the Cocaittee for Infornation.

ho Well, be never was Chief.

---

## Page 33

104-10210-10030

-3: -

Vela, he sorted in tho Comitire dor intereden.

There is a difference.

F. lie sorked in the Corittee 1c: Immation, but in wiat posicion...?

.. You do not krow excotig whet tue flust int desond Chief Directorater vese

before the death of SALIN?

i. I do not knoa, I do not lion.

^. You do not have any idea; have to retir irri

...

F. I knos there was a Secord Directorato, in, lefore the decti uf sluri,

In 1950, 1951, 1952, 1t had deproces: dü, ü-I, 2-3h, 2-1, 2-D, &-ye,

26 ....

I have heard that.

1. Ister, I could Ilke to an I want to nor too alout this, later ... I cant to

know fron where you kros this.

If you lenna about thts, then you rack tund theat what i tea askire you ar

what wore the First ard Secoad Cate! Directorates before the death or SiXili?

Fall, DaNTYA tech pover.

If you knot about 2-I, 2-2, etc. ....

1. No, I simply heard that there were sue? donartments -- 2-2

..•.

i. I an talking about that ius just tejoe the death of stALIN.

E. I do not krow, I do not know.

Â. I can saj that 1t is Impossiole for me to belleve that you vorked for tie

MVD In 1.953, 1954, because you cannot expinin to me the simplest things

which one ran into every day.

B. I told you what I know, ard ho: I know it.

0s course, 11 you take a man -- for example, te - who worked there in 1953,

1954, or one wio already had worked thor. for ten years and who had exgerienced

all of the reorganizations, etc.

SECRET

.?..

---

## Page 34

104-10210-10030

!

- :1 -

L.

What?

no dou aloo worked there for lual ver:.

D. 1º1l, since 1553.

well, I em ascing alout 1993-

E. I toid you dist I Imember, mut i 1ci.

A. Eat, inon I ack jou so: jestini, I do not deive so deeply as you should

linow if you vere a case officer in tle Meriora le ertirent.

One could put a thousand questio, not 1 an singly touchtro bhe nigh spots.

i. I an replyino just the way i i?:.

in hell, what you have seld - a . there is a percentare of truth in 1t --

does sot confiza that you vers ..:"'al en lorse die vas vortire there.

(Polse; A signale the Cari: and acco li)) Do jou vart cotice or

poneühing else?

1. Thank you.

1.. Do jou drink it black?

1. Black.

i. of course, if we are boing to continue like this, it will take us a very long

time.

I do not think that you will to very happy, if I begin to ask every question

In detall; and, you ansver "I do not know" or "I do not retender", of course,

this will confirm the more that you were not there.

I want all the talk to lead to the folloring, wher. I remind you to thins over

one question or another - I seriously want you yourself to come to sume

conclusion and begin to sjeak about the ray it really was.

- ty

5. How strangely you put it!

A. I am soù putting it strangely.

I an a very patient and calm person in this respect and, of course, uhen a

person does not know what lie 15 talking about or knows only the superficialitles

- Forman amalayao shaille toss --T do rot heve any particular desire to

---

## Page 35

104-10210-10030

-j-

delve deeper ines these questions, loons a your airers do not give proof,

since you do rot kron the 100'r.

Even 19 you did not work trese, (liou ind incitist)) dlen all of the

empiorses of the first and seen Chirt titorters a of course, after

ST'IL: died -- were happy with want lad torn core to taot tire nith the

Firat end second Chier Directorates

- juimmererrra: this i: a question

that everyone knois about.

F. I do rot kno: this.

in ifter trat, there was ülscussion of it fur an entire year, for a chole year.

sow, wat... what happerel;

B. I do rot krow.

^. You certioned once that ICHAd TV had teer Mirlster ....

B. Yes, jes.

1o l'ell, let us begin with IGAD'YOU -- wha üere his deputies?

Do Well, I was sot sorring then; I done inon ine vere his dejuties....

:. hell, taen, listen -- you worked there la gears sauer loRAD'EY.

ile left, and ERRIVA CuRe ill, aid jou infan to cars.

I. Yes.

i. Of course, you read the papers a there sece orders, instruciions, discussions;

this san was imprisoned, that ran was fired, and so on and so on.

5. I an telling you absolutely horestly winst I rezerber and how I remember it.

Maybe 1f... maybe I could renenter soasthing else, something nore ... but I

do not know now what more to tell you.

((Guard brings coffec.)!

A. You know that after BERTYA took power, as usual, seetings were held in each

directorate, department, and they criticized IGNIT'YEV and his Deputies, etc.;

they were called all kinds of names.

SECRET

---

## Page 36

104-10210-10030

- 35 -

There are thines that jou could know; iris was logical, ard it vas s0.

You canot even tell about these simple thises - wat 1t wat, and what kira

of explaration vas Elver..

I sin not acklie you way tisy renoied ton ViV; tuls was not, so to say,

our or your busirees.

Eo Well, i heard a there das tull, AGlERE; luo l do Tot cica, I da riot know.

!. Dil they also execute GuGLita?

E. Yes.

1. Did they a160 shoot Ra!Di?

P. lie wes arrested, not dith LERIYA's Croup -- he ves arrested before.

A. They shot him, also?

B. Yes.

A. Well, who else?

GOGLIDZE rever was Diputy Winicter.

B. He was in the Third Directora:.

I heard there was such a fereon -- Talla; he von a linister of tir NOB in

Belorussia; at one t1e: he had worked in iloscor.

Whether te was there in IGUT'YV's tine, I do rot snow.

Eut the most rowerful men, of course, las Lt Ger VirsIk.

A. Why VLASIK?

B. The Guards Directorate.

A. Why VIASIK, here?

B. Why?

Well, you are asking me; I am answering, telling you what names I heard.

A. We are talking about IGNAT'YEV anl his depüties; "LASIK never vas a Deputy.

B. He was not a Deputy, but he was Chief of the Guards. (Okhrena).

A. What did they do ulth him?

---

## Page 37

104-10210-10030

•

21. ((85 MASVer.))

i. PerraVi, what negpenes to ila!

P. I do not resenter, I do not serculer.

i. hat happened to VisIk?

1o He has reboved right after the death of colli.

1. Please, 1f you do not krod, da rot trie

scrething.

B. I an tellino you wast I heari.

i. jell, who else?

1. ((Long pause.)) No easier.

1. Did you ever hear of the Gruths:

1. Yes, in the old files, there is id it

i Whst does that leu?

1. Most Ilkely it was what you ture in sind

•. the First and Second

Directorater ...

vork egainst foreigner.

i. who was the cates of dge Gau ((NGT))?

i. I do not kacw.

". Can you not explain what the GaU is?

I. I do not know; it was tefore my tice.

A. What -- you cannot explain to me?

This took place right at that tire ... why was the first Directorate called the

Second Directorate; and the Second, the First?

E. This vas a very short period of tire ....

((XG; A and B speak at the same tire.))

A.

... Not correct; you are mistaken.

fat.

---

## Page 38

104-10210-10030

•..

.

SHARIN

- 37 -

This is arother conflimatin tuat you were not warring there et trist cler.

F. ((i0 mply-))

An bet us begin with the follering.

?. Yes.

1 INDiA was arrestea; all el hio lieutenato more arented.

"ho becure Minister?

Ê. ARUGIOV.

:. ire you sure of that?

1. ANGLOV.

what happened to him?

i. Yes.

1. Late:?

te again wont to the VD ... thou, te wes recoved as Minitor; ind, liter, I

heard that he was not workine anwhere and ever. lad been kleiked

out of the farty.

A riell, why did they thron his out?

F. I do not krow; I have no lisa.

in hell, there was a speciel letter fron the CC CPSU wien KRUGiOV was relieved;

this letter was for the inforestion of Cornunists and employees of the MVD

and the KGB; did you hear about it?

j. lio; I do not remember this leiter;

no.

A. When HAUGLOV wes Minister, üho were its Depubles?

E. I also do not liow.

do Well, it 18 very difficult to believe that you worised there, when you do rot

reneliber the Deputies.

SEGRET

---

## Page 39

104-10210-10030

?. i do not remember.

!. Think about it.

2. ((Long pause.)! I thiné SCROt too a Copute.

^. You could know more exactly: Call o.. was else?

¿. ((ions pause.)) I leeri toe nace, MONAld!.

^. what?

F. MONASIESOV.

:. tho wes ROMASILYOV?

1!. lie was a deputy to PRUGLOV.

#. ROMAS:TOV?

2. Yer.

i. Hor lona was he there?

E. Vell, during KRUglov's cise.

:. cell, for long was UGLOV Mindeter?

After BoRIk's arrest, hor long was lie Mirister?

I. About, a y: ar.

^. liell, when was BERIlÀ arrested?

E. In Jure 1953, the â7th... no, he ((was arrested)) on the 26th

....

1. ((In English)) Or; vell, the aóth, 27th.

KRUGIOV became the Minister.

For how long?

8. To the end of 1954, uben SEROV becane Chairman of the Coumittee ((for Stato

Security)).

ho Well, when was the Carmittee organized?

B. At the end of 1954, at the end of 1954, or at the beglaning of 1995.

---

## Page 40

104-10210-10030

.. = 39 -

I cairos eccept do velia coln a.. ¿ca mut ersia tiera staple tirit, bach

as when the 103 wed orce:izes.

i do not rorezier.

I am telling you the way I resenber it.

2o June such a nintake tj en entire piar -is rtupid; right?

I ta rot asris when the Fitti Centlin ou tre "arentu Gaperosent la bie

eventh Directorate wes Organizi: I do the sor a gurstien like that.

!. I to not inod that at ili.

i. You worked there, and yet you say tunt jou do cut recer ta

"Hen YGB was

oreanize3?....

Do ... In 1¿54, at the end of lesi, tie leciendre de 1955 ....

¿o co. to make elsteke of a stole jerr ... thie (11955)) 18 not correct, you know.

Pect, who else was Deputy to Malgler?

2. I do not rescuber.

Is jou asked se wio was in the first Dorertent, that would be another ratter;

that is sorething I know very veil, boccure i ran into these people, and ....

:. One 1150 should know the names of tas chiefs; right?

B. Of the chieis, I knew... who their.

FEDORON, Petr Vasilyevich, ((and)) sunriov.

À. Oh, iEDOIOV, Petr Vasilyevich... poor old man; no doubt he is turning over

in his grave.

E. Do you know ke is dead?

A. Hell, between us, what do you know that is unususl, which all of the employees

Ine's about FEDOTOV?

B. Petr Vasil'yevich?

A. Yes; sanething that was unusual.

SECRET

---

## Page 41

104-10210-10030

-::.

I. keil, wat unusuel thin, do I lon trot roder?

I inor toot MoLOTOV thorne mell outla; mcarnaly, this was ....

1. Inls in not westsl.

1. Screthleg wussel; he wes married nore than once -- he was earried to a

youre blazle; I never sai her.

Le has too erom children educat sit a son -- but this is not wruel.

Mary mogle, high officiale, divorced tunir diris and rarzied others, aid so

fortia; in soviet conset, this la to note.

At she zere thee here (619 the Vera)), partie:darly sion there ace 20 11l10%

¿onen =0e, 1t 1s easy to choose.

iell, wist others ((Deputies!) were there?

You should insu.

Some jeople you cannot avoid.

vell, ¡ERITA was arrested;

WiLl le: an Iinister; jon nored, ss his

Deputies, -anor, Roastor; who sis: uns there?

¿. I do not racerbor; honestly, I do nor resember.

Áo low sang Amendans vere fired after die Firest a KOBUlON?

:. I do too snow how many; but, in 1903, wien i hai just core ir, tiere were

sore progle find a they were firit prople.

I tie ilist Departient, so mary somen were durking, all of the women were fired.

Then, there were all kirds of irvorols ((typical isterian name)), and so os,

and so on; none of then were left.

Jews here fired.

o tell, in 1953, there already sere no Jews; if there were, they were only those

whoa BERIYA took in.

P. No, there were still Jews around; they were in the Second Directorate.

ho tell, ayway, who else was a Deputy Minister?

¿. I do not resender.

---

## Page 42

104-10210-10030

•

- 41 -

!.. ¡eli, It is interecülig for in to knew what force 1s preventire you fror

calkira, about diat really mies chrer.

To well, I ma telling you wuat war really tiere, what I remenuer.

rell, moive I can remember some other lilace, lut they do not come to sliá,

they do not cone to cind.

You see -- perhaps I have euch s atrade tenory.

I can tell so nany things disuc cat may tall about at the too, wist 1 neard

about so many people; Lut, richt nor, i camot.

If ün tane the neuspepers for those bears o.. about cuck-and-raci, nubut

s0-End-s0 ... you urderstarl.

1. I thire you see ... I en asking told e.. tot tide talo was writter. In the

newspapers.

:. l'ell, un ... yes ... no

o.. You son a rame in a newspeger, and rigit away

you can ....

.. Tre noses of HUGLOW and Sanov are tanon to taw whole world.

Of course, in Intelligence cireles labor is known very *oll; to othere,

lie means rothing.

1. Absolutely.

((Pause.)) well, just as tie questio. vas -- Violl, had you heard, tefore you

noried for the MVD, did you hear the nare ... let us sey ... GRIENUV?"

I never heard it.

"FEDOTO!?"

I never bnew about hin and never beara of him.

in I telieve that.

If you did not wor's there, it cuulú te tust you never heerd of him.

Eut, 11 ... you were their agent, you nigit have heard of him.

t20 knows?

It happens tbat wey.

((Pause.)) Weil, wio else was there?

KRUGLOV, SEROV, ROMASEROV; who else?

E. I do not resember.

RETARI.

GLOR

---

## Page 43

104-10210-10030

A. 1eal, toicy de locan to stead de i o liter ià I902ar.

Io whom are the Internal Indups nie Dicerstrite?

You were there not too lone peri

Do lo; they are not in the tok.

1. linere are they, 18 rot (fin the daija

1. I do not iron if they exist now, le toy

exist no..

i. Diery emplojee of the Second Clien Dorestorate

. . . .

• L. jo, not Couros ((Troops)), dut Inceir 1,

"ralo.. sost likely, they are

in the 1500.

i. There 1e to laD.

.. HOSP -- Minisury for Preservatic: st Juilie ider.

A. laid, and the Convoy Troops?

1i. 1=0 in the iD, beenuse all the moe are dore, in the laD.

Were are o2lj too prisons in tha

i. 1n11, when PERTL: 100l power, to when did the camps. belong?

I. I do nit moù these deterls, I do not laci.

of cource, they belong to the iD.

1. in employee who worked in the secoad Chisi Directorate rust know this.

And if I ask you the question, and you even have not heard of do not krow of

the Directorate for the Protection of State Irrasures, which also wores very

closely with the Second Chief Directorate ....

If you know Departient "K", then jot suct know this -- you cannot get around it.

((Long pause.)) well, thinis ato-t 1t again.

KRUGLOV was Minister; SEROV, = Deputy; NO!I'SIKOV, a Deputy; who else?

B. I do rot know; I do not renester.

A. Hell, very well; KRUGLOY becase kirister; who was the Chief of the Pirst

Chief Directorate at that tine?

421.

---

## Page 44

104-10210-10030

- 4: -

I. irca due Party; ie das a Party rotte:.

Miter EaTiN's arrest, they fül her in end Cruside; loser, he ¿jain vaa talea

to do Farty icie, and tuen they cont tin to le an irbassador to one of the

¡eagle's denocixie countries.

no ell, further a wio was Cited chito?}?

í.. I do not recenter.

•i. Of Investigations?

1'. I do not renezter.

.. Of tie Inspectorste?

I. It ceased to chist after tie arrent of Lilli.

;. The Lorder Trooja?

i. The Internel Troops?

:. I do not inow.

... Tre l1l1t1a?

E. There were sany in the liliti - lendor, laror, mary.

i. lell, mary, Lang; who was Chief of Militle when khuGly was linister?

I. I do not reneater.

I know that, in the Militia, ABRAOV, JUSTFOV, aid STiKHWOV were working.

A. What have we left out so far?

Who was Chief of the Kommendant Departient?

-...;-

B. I only remember EROVKIN.

1. Who was Chief of Department "I'?

B. IVANOV.

He was, until the end, when the departient as cosbine?.

-SEGRET

---

## Page 45

104-10210-10030

-; .

#O MA GULAG?

3. There already was no Gula.

I. i-21, It wes there;

it did not disappear.

5. Is 1t was there, then 1t wes in carto; Ido rot inos.

1 tell, at thet thee, there dae billy oe Merely.

I. Ião not krox, I do rot kari, I do rot ta's.

^. Die Prisons Directorate?

i. I do not knod.

to The First Spec1al Deja i cat?

D. I do not knoi.

:. Th: Second?

I. WE SIDEMY tecame ((Chief)).

i.. The Third?

2. There was PEL'CISIO.

'. The Fourth?

I. I do not tron.

1. Tie Fifth?

B. I ao not know.

The Sixth -- SACHIKOCHIKHUN.

i. The Chief of the Secretariat?

B. kiter KRUGLOV, DOBROKHOTOV.

Ao hell, under KAUGLOV?

B. I do not knos.

A. The Judicial Bureau?

B. I do not know.

-SEERFT

---

## Page 46

104-10210-10030

•

- is, -

A. The Speciel Ecurt?

i. There wes sone.

;

I. There wes, st ore tire ....

ho well, what else was there under «WL?!?

(LorE reuse, no replio)) You wiersend yourself her little you inci, for

one to beideve that you worked there.

R.

... For a case officer vro mud dut: ena to mari thore, wis lad dest beelin ....

i. ile would cose across all the mates:

ins rogers, rocks with files, ssets

agenis; he reports to the chiefi, sti

"operationil, icasorol ard Party

meetines and confererces; avery tip, i, on to wore in Puliding i. ",

lic. 12, and others; he nant irid trust 1a0.

Put your krodledge 10 rot that of a eror officer, but of a zan dio slaply

dropped ta there and cas: cut.

((Loss paura; no reply.)) I scuid lie do flid tre exilanation for this

problen.

nas held tie secting in the Creor! Ciles Directorate after the arrest of

PERTYA, when they explaired why he ind toen arrested?

:.

I do not rereaber.

I do not rezecher that such a seeting was leid for the shole directorate.

i. Can you give ne a version which you heard o: knot of hor EaRlYA wes arrested?

B. Yes, whst I know.

A. I said "version" because there were so mary runors, ard there still are.

B. BERIYA was arrested at a meetinz of the Presidiu CC, forserly the Politbyuro.

It was entirely unexpected for his.

The seeting was on a Friday, and he was arrested by the silltery.

Marshel HOlEV took part; I do not knoi who else.

(SC) I bead... I Olly beard that HUSHCitV, BULGANIli and others vere afraid

to talk about FERTYA in their offices, fearirs 'bugs" (teihnika).

.. ...

---

## Page 47

104-10210-10030

. Prohibly they were stake.

fun specialists, not same the intert meal biracinert, of course.

115; A and E spear at the sad teacti

Int I do not leiso were an In its critoe of sonathere else an but the Lags"

were used.

On she same right = it already maid ile everter on Friday a tre lazulo%s,

DELAORON, GOGLIEZE and GeerS here arrested.

:. Have you beard the rave, thil?

=. Yes, jes.

le sas clso a Deputy; he scried in ta t0B.

He was from Georgia ((the Georgie-

1, Hard's man.

in cinere was he at thit tire.

" I do rob lanca, I do nut ico.:.

. Descara was vorking in the that try

w. ire jou sure?

F. lio, I an not sure; I lion chat to taired, but ....

in lieli, he was workings ....

Under BERTY!, he didiot work there; he did sonething else.

=. I cannot say exactly.

Ard DEKANOZOV -- they even arreatel him -- he flew in, and they arrested im

right at the airport;

well, I heard such details.

Froe where did he fly, from lorgia, or?... I do not know.

A. Hell, '1f you know, tell ee.

B. I as telling you that DEkANOZOV us arrested right at the airport, as ke

case off the piaze.

READIT

-

---

## Page 48

104-10210-10030

-i..

,A. Do you kron who, fron the Secord thiee Dinatorate in 19 you Pereaber When

there was an uprising in Erst Gerrory:

• 1. 1550.

i. 10.

!. Oh .. you have Girauny In mind; 1t .05

"irtier, cartier.

In 1955, 1t nas In Fungary, Foirad.

i.. jery vell, I will tell you a lt mus in dise in IT tina.

I. So.

:.. iho, from the Second Chief Liessmate, went to Berlin at that tire?

:. I do sot inor, I do rot know, i do not kaoi.

..cell, I do not insist on this question, in you do ros kaoa, you do not inca.

... to ore were fron the Firut Departrari.

i. If you worked there, you could inor exectly.

:. I knos exa tis that no one sent fia Firt deartrait.

i tell, in tave to do furbo a inuntci, seror, palesier ....

¿. There is an Interesting detail about Robachov.

le leter a this vas in 2957 ...:o, in 1903 ... --le rus ... he worked at

one tibe in the CC; he is a CC jerker.

But, he worked in the CC at one tise; then again, ir the organs; agalr, in

the CO; then, in the orgens, all his life.

And, In the latter period, he worked in the MVD, In the BVD.

Fe made appearances on television.

It seens he was some kind of Deputy Minister; Laybe, of the MVD.

This 1s not e rumor; It 18 a fact.

And soncone saw hin, someone when he had interrogeted and ho had been coavicted,

although not guilty; and he ((this person)) sent a letter to sose big tan in the

CC, and this letter served to have FiliDOV fired.

FARt

---

## Page 49

104-10210-10030

dio she could relp lokeov; so me cod sure hir. .

I lave in nine Minister of the MD TUlll, dia des tiere in liso.

Ise; could not delp his 1a autar, a de das gonored from all lils posee.

iid else was there?

I do not resenter, I do roe cereriai.

.. in wilat esprered to STrZUAC!?

E. le was linister os Internal iftatri, aftre SaLo".

Then a 35 j0u iron a the larictry of internal it aire al the JeSh was

ebolished, und the Ministry of Internal tairs of tie NorS! retaired.

.. Yes.

I. STAHANOV was Minister for the dizok.

i. So.

D. Tuen ne ies renoved and SELanI: Darty fron the iGD -- TIMOV -- replaced

him.

He was Seruty to SiELaPIl in the al; he also wee fron the co of the Party.

TInnie:, vadio... Vala, was lirtites of the WD aod this lirlstry was

reorganised muse II WOV as tie clotstry for the ireservation of Public

Отлет.

i. And who eise was there betweer. üner?

B. I think, after SINSAUV, there was FlaPer.

STAREA:OV waS after KRUGIOV.

A. Did you ever hear of DUDCROV?

B. DUDOROV, DUDORON - you are right; DUDOROV, yes.

After IRIGIOV, It was DUDoRo!.

And, after that, it vas STAFüDOV; risit.

A. Hell, what did they do with DUDOROV?

B. He was removed.

---

## Page 50

104-10210-10030

-::.

no ic)i, where did they rut t'=?

¿.. I do not know where they pet hit; I 9 too inod dece be darkel.

i. a:: jou do not tron there de tataria

---

• irratly there was tale in cold dictatoro lal bappened to then.

:. I co not know, I do rot arci.

i. in BUGLOV a did they eat lethodich or ecmathing?

.. it tie cogieniro, "ney put to caseuste, nol thea, after so van of je.sion,

tie deprived hia cô the tenden ai put l's oue of the Party.

... Of wat did they accuse lie:

:. For cld deeds, for oid deeds, wier lie; reviewed all the old files.

...

But to belped to recove Beezra.

:. SETor helped to rezove Eat.

• Sissiar also was there.

IS :SUaler had rot neige:, de would not hare decone Mialster after fEESi.

¿ ((long Fause.)) I do nos raou dy ¿tail as renored; they even toon say

his pension and put lit sue of the Party.

i. Heli, in will take a shor treak.

((ERERK))

¿. You cannot answer arathiro i ask cí you.

5. Hell, understand De; I ersher your questions as I can.

I ves thinking this vay -- 730, what kird

of nanes did I know, not vorsing

in kub ...."

Let is say, I heard the rate of the Chief of Convoy Troops -- I beard 1t ites

I was g. student -- there izs It Gen IciKOV.

Pros shere ((did I hear this))?

Ils 80n, Boris BOCHKOV, Lited In tüe saDe house as I, Ca Grazorskly Street..

The DaDDy a man the hafone the un was the Prief Prosecistor.

---

## Page 51

104-10210-10030

--3

-3: -

I kani, when I vas a studert in spitatio, this 20026d des Cuter of the

Convoy Troops.

lie sace corind ith GUlia.

I luca this jrag fellow.

2. This is a double nage: EATOPTY-FORM, or MAZORTH-MAGON.

¿. that was his rari?

T. I do not know -- a gereral, but I do: ou knoa.

Tute yourg feilor, Gernado, was in muri wish = ...

In Bars....

It seans he was o.. yes.

A. 150 is tils ENSEDKIN?

I. leil, the son of this indoor-incarnia.

i. Dil EUCROV also have a son?

I. jes, Porle BOCIFiOV; he lived in the sane building.

IuSBili had two sona; I did no, sun the other, I snew ond; Gerardly.

BiCOV had orly one son, foris, a pilo..

A. that else do you remerber?

P. I a simply saying .. I ar trying to answer what I recall, that veich I

revenber, as it was.

A. Hell, there is very little, very little.

I doubt you have such a poor menory ....

B. Hell, you know bow the renory is -- you read sonething... jou look at it ...

ob, this, this, this, this, I know... when (X).

Can you deseribe the first identification (udostoverentye Iichzost1) ubien

you received when you first began to work in the liD?

B. It was a red book; In the cenier was printed the seal (gert) of she soviet Unle

---

## Page 52

104-10210-10030

-'2 -

!

Undon ca SSP" aas printed.

1. "ell, jüu cen forget such desales tell in moie.

7. Joat 1s elli there 1s absolutely cotton tore prialed on 1t.

i. tell, jou know, there was an interestine period etier the denti oa circli

and before ESkIYy's arrest, and thon, alter baRiE"': arent ard beiore they

orerntend the FSB.

nat secularities vere there about the llentif!.. 1on wilch jere noted

ard which everyone krew about?

E. I do not iron, I do not inca.

I do not iron wist peculiarities tient ire, I do not knor.

:. This is st1ll another confimution tine you were not there it tint tire.

I. cell, that ... hor (ic)?

.. Il joù cannot ansver tils queution mil say tiat joudo not krow in try way ....

=. I ju and or wias there vee thai can so roticeable.

Up to that tine, I had no identiftention.

I do not renow, I am tellira you.

!. Eut you received 1t as soon as you reçan sorkina.

E. Right; ard I received ((that one with the inscription of)) the Kristry of

Interral iffairs".

i. he you sure that you received the identification for the Minietry of Intertal

Affairs, or did you receive ors for the ilnistry of State Security et that tie?

B. (liong pause; then, speaks with uncertainty, in a lod voice:))

Fio... Internal Affairs ....

i. Anyway, viat vas printed or 1t7

I. I do not kiow what you have in rind as a characteristic feature wiich was

noted by everyone.

< SECRET

-..

= ÷3

---

## Page 53

104-10210-10030

- 1з -

1. i clil tell you a i have in rid i ejecial try that ude pet la its

certification at thus tire.

Maat kind of strap was it?

1. ((Fauce; no anorer.))

in hs soon as the tVD and 109 vere co lined, aitor the Coat: of Saulli, tiay

put in a star, lecuuse tar tue inistric: knuai to tir togetier.

i. I do rot moss i do not resentara I do susanaberg I da doo resenter.

i. i, niter EbRIYA was arrested, snother stump des put 15.

'i not reserver, I do not per taco, I do sno paperbar.

is. i 1s cannot de forrouten 1n ary wuy.

F.. I do not know.

4. Because, withor that stamp, jee sule not to dato a cuildire.

Tre ddertification ligit hare loo. in lientirerion, tut they routd not

let jou in.

do stans, so cataj.

Èo i do not renerber.

i. It iss like this -- there were IlOV and abloi; they were worring together

in the same directorate, etc.; well, li was like a great transalgration of the

regile -- but, for one, they put in the stain and lie colia freely enter; bur

the other had no

stamp and no entry at all.

If It was recessary, one had to order a one-time pass, despite the fact that

they had an indentification for the iNd or the soB.

B. No; I do not remerber the stamp; I do not recember:

A. There were nary jokes about this steep; if you vere there, you would rever.

forget then.

:.!"

-...

I lu as de

g'it I sad it:

1.

---

## Page 54

104-10210-10030

- 14 -

No inain, thie 1o one of the reasons tont is cannot le belloved thet you workes

tiere at that tire.

cell, explain to me in intail a wint dies the sertaà naster (11ciay Trai) ¿a

walsh you sertioned, sean?

ion did they introduce tir seri: seriar:

D. I do not reneuter when the introduced it.

They introducca it o.. it vas rule ran a white ratil, a plate.

more was a hoi: in it, co the inst stir on. lo chas a gils reant irred

Forces (Voorzhenrage 9115) of tie USe.

-- was cat In (íl.e. Into the intel)).

1. Cut in:; what else?

I. 'SSSa'; and, et the bottos, ras "Ye (()), two zeros, and the number

((1.с., "EOO....")).

'ho Two zeros?

5. And the rumber; trut is all, rishire alre.

1. What vas the approximate size of this plate?

B. Lilia tilo ((12luctratec.)).

i. deil, in centipeters, eprodiratily.

3. The width -- a cas., ad here, it wild to 4-5; 2 (ices.)) tigh, or 2 by 5.

h. Hell, amproximately 2 by 4?

E. Yes, by l, by i.

A. Or 2 by 5?

B. Yes.

A. Is the name printed on 1t?

sai.

116.

---

## Page 55

104-10210-10030

- 55 -

..

P. Has 1t a staple alumirm plate?

E. At the top, there 1s "US SCORi tien ... It 1s aut in, in blac: or blus...

cut in tiere; era, es the Lottor, there se tie leiter, "Ye", aid the muster.

in that does 'Ye" stard fort

3. That signifles the series; 1 ras a 'Ye dorial nuler .. I do cot know

pertaps inis series ies fer tie *CE.

i. Series Ye'; What do the tiro zeros strai for?

E. Thit was the becimire of tier zies.

in What ias your rumber?

5. Two zeros and then ... I do not rementer ... 1033 ... or 10è. ... I do not

remezue: ....

Two zeros and four sore nuaders.

((Pausea)) This serial mater is printed in the lOB Identicication on tie

left side, wiere the photo cas; it 1s written in in Indla into when jou

receive the identificiation.. your corici nunter is alreauy written in.

Á. This is not the runner of the dientille-tion?

B. 10, this 18 rot the number of the Identification; this 1a die serial nusber.

lio, ro, no; the sunbar of thie identialcation 1s on the richt.

Defore I was Deputy Chief of the section, it was OS", and ((for those)) fron

((the position of)) chief of secsion, ci, so to say, deputy chief of deperiment,

here was "Is", "IS", that is sight.

A. ¡ell, and the Identification?

B. And the nuber of the identification... it was "US" and the number of the

identification, and then, lates, from ablef of section and deputy chief of

department, IS" and the number of the identification.

A. liell, what does "OS" stand for?

B. liell, probably "officer personnel (ofitserssly Sostar)"; aral "IS", probatly

"executive fersonnel".

A. Ind "KS"?

DEGREF

...

---

## Page 56

104-10210-10030

ScteaT

- jú -

Bo viell o.. I seg "l5 or 'I0' o.. Ite netererier; i tilin ltvea "lis' ..

"executive personnel".

d. inli, when and why did tiry tntroduce tinde rusters?

nhat 1s 1t called e- tle serzal rurlert

B. Serial runser.

1. "Serial reber' or jerconal ts: (aichaly rorer 111 Iicanly mnak?")

E. Thiis is & =late.

You are right -- 1t 1s personal taù, tut on 1t, there 16 the serial riunber,

your persenei rusber.

•Asd tieer, dn the Identicication, iù ic üritten that this 1e sot a "jersonsl

taE", but a serlal runber, such rirt saci..

ho inla, thirk: 1t over -- when did tliy introlics them?

B. ((Pause. )) I du not rezeater; in soy cace, sut esiler then 2955 ... rot

carlier, set escller, io, no.

1. Noü carlier than 1956?

P. io, tils plate ... not earller ....

((i2usc.)) I received it ühen I was üorisitc in the Seventr Depastsent; tihle

eeans in the perica ... I was there fron ighs to 15s?, sosethine like that, in

this perica, hut in thich jear --I do sot troa, I èo not rementer.

A. ilay dere these runters introduced?

Hoa was this explaired?

For what vere they needed?

Bo rell, they did not explain; they geie them to us -- that 1s all; each of

us sigred for his nunber; a Personnel officer gave them out.

A. where were you instructed to keep then?

B. Hell, I kept it in uy safe, but - in general -- the ideR was you had to keep

It sonewhere on your person with your persunal docurents; you kad to have it

with you; you night lose 1t.

But wost of the time, It was in the safe.

Look -- s0 many, as I, did the following: you have a little chain; then what?

-s:

---

## Page 57

104-10210-10030

• ..

- 51 -

You have the key fron the nie, t99 to tie suor, the seal dits welco

you seal the safe ....

it ore tire, I wore it here ....

do ihat klid of a scal did ¿ou inca?

what was the rumber on it.

D. The seai was en old one, lit it had ThE writter un 1t.

Ar cla seal.

It secas ... 32, ....

SURE:, the Supply san, issued it.

You tad to sign out for 15, tio.

There sere listances in which try were 1at.

A. tell, if you lose it, do they pantrh you and fire you a new ore:

Do Piey Dive you a row one.

1. Did everyone lave a seal?

B. (Guuce.)) You see, the dies can tuet everyone hed to hive wiis seal to

ceri his safe; but, in practice ... let us sey jou sori in tre Severth

Departent -- there are four - flve people in a room; evaryone tried to

Jase his om safe, but there was a shortece of small safes (dioyka).

lecause there were not enougi srall rates, there vere large safes, tulier

ores ro. two or three recale could use then.

One worker or another would seal the safe.

Anyone who might not have

one (la seal)) would make excused not to zet

one because he feared losing It.

A. But did every seal have a number?

B. ((Peuse.)) Well, I do not krow; I did not check.

Of course, the seal has a number; in the center, there 1s a ruber.

A. Was there earthing else un these seals?

B. There 1s writiug around ((the edge of 1t)).

A. "ell, what was written there?

SECRET

....

+-

---

## Page 58

104-10210-10030

E. Tage... I rad an old send ... 'Kristy of State decurity less o=

ICE o.. 'Ine sssi, 103, yes, and, in lo contor, ta the center, =

rutter.

A. I sshed -- were there meals without nurkers:

(END 09 ICEL # 6 63 August 1955 Session continuel Do Peel a 7) 10 0152d2))

221

-.;

-SECHET-

---