Agency: SSCIA
Originator: SSCIA
To: SHIMON, JOSEPH
Document date: 9/12/75
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

## Page 1

Dage : 08/06/95

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER: 157-10014-10087

RECORDS SERIES : HEARINGS

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 11-H-06

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : SSCIA

FROM

SHIMON, JOSEPH

TO

TITLE

DATE

09/12/75

PAGES

: 81

SUBJECTS

: CIA

ROSSELLI, JOHN

MAHEU, ROBERT

FBI

DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS

: 1A

TENSERTED

CURRENT STATUS

: RELEASED WITH DELETIONS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/25/98

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS : BoX 4

Released under the John F. Kennedy

Assassination Records Collection

Act of 1992 (44 USC 2107 Note) •

Casef:NU 53244 Date: 06-14-2017

[R] - ITEM IS

RESTRICTED

HH 53244

DocId: 32123475

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46t1

NIAZONAL SECURITY INPORMATION

ORIGINAL

Vol. 202g1

Ohe Suited States Bruats

F1686

Report of P'rocecdinge

17

-

i i

Hearing hold before

Sonato Salact Committoo to study Govarnmental

Oporations With Rospoct to Intolliganco Activitlos

REVIEWED BY FBWJFK, TASK FORCE

ON 5/198 lat

• RELEASE IN FULL

RELEASE IN PART

TOTAL DENIAL

Friday, Soptember 12, 1975

Weshingrun, D. C

Tape and table tucne:

Nitr

EVARD & PAUL.

1111 FIRST STHMAT. 8.1.

WASHINGTON, 1. 1. 20008

IN 161-1046

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Date

8/21/78

frip i

Literi

ingeni

9/1:1÷-

hittr

2/10/88

71:1!::

Name

segrattre

Pon BlaKey A.polx Plaligs

er!!

/o.iXi: d: t0:015

• i's...'sueço.

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7071 341

SENIENTS

TESTIMONY OF

•Joraph Shimon

PAGE

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HARDI

no, aa 101 see 40002

-

-=--

:.

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PONS

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EXECUTIVE SESSION

Friday, Saptambar 12, 1975

...

Unitarl Statos Sone!'s.

soloct committen to study covormantal

aporationa With Raspact to

Intallinance Actluitter,

"anhinaton, ". ".

The comnittee mat, pursual! to notten, at lill o'clock

Mom. in k00M 1127, Dirksen Senate Offlon Mu11i1111, Sorator

Huddl999011 plant lines.

Probant:

Also prahant:

Andrew

Postal, David flunhono, therr parror..

cordon Khea, dosaph dimove, "rotsasterol titare urbara.

.-.

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IRRSEEDINIS

sanator Huddleston. Hould you stand and raloo your rinh.

hand, sir?

no you swear the taselmony you ara about to give is the

truth, tho whole truth, and nothing but the truth, as hald you

i God?

o

L.

:.

Mr. shimon. I do.

Mr. luahong. You underntand that the committen Ruler

" provido that you can havo a sanator pranore throunhout tho

Intarvion. At any time that you want to tan and mak

:. arraurenails, no will try to acconodade you dul have a sanator

predant.

Mr. shimon. Okay, I undorstand tha.

Soiator Huddlaston. Thank vou vory much.

at 3:15 n'elock pom., thee hearing worst

continued without the presence of a senates, in Room 5-40%,

the Cipitol.)

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TI:STIMONY ON JOSEPH W. SHIIION

Me, Khoa, H11l you please stato your name and eddraas

¡for the racord?

MI. Shimon. Jonaph W. Shimon. My local addrasa 1s 2912

¡sorth starsord street, Arlington, VIralala 21107. "y out ol

6 I conn'addions is star Route 75, Altamillor, Marylard 31519.

:,Kitzmallor 19 k-1-t-z-m-1-1-1-g-r.

Mí. Khan, You vo baan sworn by sanator Muddleaton, havo

" " you not?

Ms. shimon.

I hava.

isr. thad.

since tianator Muldlaston l9 unt prozant too.

•you are fire to stop the quage lenda de are went that sorris.

Howevar, la approciate your answerina rurat lor.n.

Mr. Shimon.

I unlargtand!.

ir, "hoa.

You alyo have all of your constitutional reintr

• intact with this

committes. You ard aware you have thy ri:"

to as attorses?

'Ir. shimon.

Yes.

"15. Khea.

Aur have you decided not to heve an attorne

with you?

so. shimon.

I don't resil an attorrer.

isr. ithod.

Okav.

115, 5h1901, Iaward Honholt Willlame coste too much morni

He lendananted me lant tina, although l am hin private intoo..

nator, ur ! das me the tire.

1 work ior nothing cor threr

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1ns709)

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¡yoars after that.

Mr, Khea, You a190 have the fifth Anandmant risht. not

: to aravoriquortions. Aro you awaro of that?

Mr. Shinon, Yss, I am aware of that.

MI. Postal. Mr. Shimon, wa're 101nn to focus primarily

In avonte in tha early part of tha 1960's.

10w wary you amployad in 19907

Mr. Shimon. In 1960 I was an Inspoctor In tho Detactlur

" ' surenu of the Motropolitan Police lapartmant, Manhinaton, n.%.

Mr. Pontal, At that time, dle you kin sobert Mahau?

"st, shimon. Yon, vory wall.

ar. loardl, lar long hal 10! known is. "ah 911?

Mi, Shimon. Pour or filo, maybe six inera in the mindle

:: '50'g.

"r. Portsl. Did you megt him profesai.rallu?

Mr. Shimon. No, I mat him socially.

MI. Postal. And did your involvoment become both

.. professional and social, or van it primaril, social?

"9r. Shimon, Primarily soclal, other then that he d14

:.

dincuns many ol his oneratione with na, artel lor ovinions.

:.

and I assiated him in a lot of thines. This way not for sav.

:::

this was a friendship deal. I would do to rali orila with

him on thie Muches stuff, you krow, rollave the mai in Tuean

lor him, aud didn't coot him aruthire. at the hall, it was

;.:

a vacation for mo.

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.:

:.

i.

i.

Mr. Postal, Did there come a tlmo when you loarned that

Mr. Mahau had an absuclation with tha Cantral Intollinanco

Ayancy?

M5. 9h1m0r. I laarnad that in the 'ro's, and that was

' from the emploveos in the dotectlue agency, which was then on

o " 9th stroat.

There was Johuny Frank, Murphy, any number sittir.

: around, sonatal conversatlon, and the fart that he brounht in

• a lunkhoad, a dead danus nuy that was strictly poison lor the

businoon, and I Inquirad what he was doinn

thare, and thay sn11

I' thay had to tako him bocause his wife war vory prominent

:. ClA and ClA was nicklan up the tah for their rent. so 1

:8t00191l knockinn the nuy.

Ir. lostal. Who wan the uy, do you know?

Mo, Shimon. 1 fornat his nomo, but he ombarranged us re

badly that I has to de to sw York and bail out sahgu..

Ar. loutal. Do you know Johnny konsalli?

it. shimon. all, yer.

Ir. Montal. When di! You first.

meet "Іґ. К0999111?

"Ir. shamon. I mat Mr. 1099a111 in the late 1 10'g.

:!::

tre veran an 1 drove a diadallas out lor lob dahou. la ran a!

= cadillac, to had a lincoln, He was one thare. I trader ti:

lincoln, drove tho cadillac out for him, brounht my wils wi!:

i9t.

Whale we made thare, ho 1ot a call iron One of tha

disciators that dried a whee was the name or the place that

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burned down - wanted to nan him, ha man a cilant, are la 1u9t

ras -- this client had Milton Berla du 11 room.

Milton

Marlo mantail to frano Prina, loulo Palma, lle wantol to bull!!

a frano or him by ulanting some dope or him. I'm listenin

: to chla, monoy changed, 52,0001 no when wo nor back to poverly

i 11s11e, I sad to nob, thie lo pure stufl, I don'e hold ature.

: ¡uhat aro you, playing games?

In days, yonh, I'm just taking money, and a conle or ehrr.,

¡you sunt no back and write it off. And he said, von know, lar

: so throuch the morlone, lot'a plait out do lrina le livolve in

: liarcotics.

And I made some calls, son know, l 19el to vort taler:".

..in mashinaton with everybody, too, and l 111! to no, l were

:: a coridation du Vards, l didn't know anybody, i rested e ar

i gui 1 could tal': to.

He said, no to the "anert ten ar! a4?

• for Johnny Russelli.

5o l want there and hall him baned. lle save me the mi

introlucer nutal! and this aur, and he alont dor me the D''.

until I naitioned another mutual friend is hal, deno turr

father-in-law, big sang was Balteler, laran

famous old con man. lle was the mon who what Tory Mart 1n

was in tho Have, lie was supposed to not to.y proute! and taii

was sumnonal tu cito him a watch and brie var a b!! accula::.

Chin was the name que, Mill this carmed ue Ha, aal ? tal! !i

Wat I was there, dil I ave him the whole story abous the tr"..

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7

and all, and of course he was right in my corner then.

: lin sold, das, don't hold atill for that and any connoctiona

you want.

And I sadi, what. is the drun aituation in Varan, and I can

: honostly say in thoss days when the Mob ran Veras, there vero

no thron's, no hold-up man, aud 18 a drun "gallar showed un

Chare, to was lOund out in the dosart. They illin't noon a

• police depertment out thore, i could sa: that.

so at lind or 1100 o'clock in the morning, 1 mat with

Milton and than other quy, wrote than of!, nald there's nothin

to it, thard's no way you can evor flad arus on loudo Prima.

.. ¡ho purpore of this was that lilton was Mallnt a congback an!

haul aigned a contract takine loule lyina dent his wile on, bue

they were neat performers and dodmai like crazy, and l think

:11tos was dirgid that they minht stool the show, to ho tantri

ail excuse to bund them.

Can we ao off thy recori?

miscussion off the rocora. I

1r. 10s9a1. All riahe, let's no back on the record.

All ribe, no vou met Johnny koralli out in ta9 lara".

It was la thes let ra's.

Did cou ismain close with sohnny afterwards?

1s, shimon. lesh, lack yoar wa went back a'for the

next coule of years, ai out to the lost const wa hail disia!

with than bacau990l 11911911 Shitalar.

Herman would alward "ill

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! Schnny, he laked him.

Johnny was tryina to interest me Into movinn to joran to

• tako over security, and I juat couldn't huy that, and 1r ho

: came this waj, he would always stop and say hallo, hacauso ho

• mas Mr. Min. not only In Vagas, ho was !1r. Bly la Bavarly 111111.

¿bacauso it is, as you might know, he's the man that mado the

¿ „lanour pictura "lle walked by Minht," but bocause ho's been do prd-

nois, they never put his name on 1t as producer. In was alway

! mirad up la tho movin crowd.

Mr. lostal. Mion old you firat como in with sam

Glancano?

I mot him pot too fliet time at the lont.li:.

:: "danu 1. 1961.

:.

Mr. Postal.

okay.

id''s focus on that particular timo.

Did there come a time wher. you wont to int with 110b

"lahel?.

ir. tihimor..

Hob Hahnu.

"Ir. l'0stu!.

what were the circumutanced purrenting f.

Mi. thimon.

I WiN

invited by lob to

Johannon fight. This was

originally i dinnot: 1 had bot and 11%

wiro less dinner. Ho invited me and l said no, and my nite

Haid, oh, come on, you know, lob tells had you won't

10, and 1 based tdon't care about tiches. do anyway. !

changed my mand dad I went down. We then down and went riult

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up to hin suite.

Mr. Postal. You did not raglotar?

ins. shimoni: oh, no.

We wont rinht un to tha aulto. Ano

• 1e. the sulta was sam, Johnny rosgalli and a follow nanor lou

: somobody, tho public rolations man out o! Chicago.

Mr. Portal. Larlarar?

Mr. shimon. Ladorer.

Lou was thara.

lou was

• Lo Jainlon to look at soma carlios.

The carverention, oh, lor the firee bour or two thair da?

: bathann sam, dohnny dud tha coninos In duali somowhere arr dor?

lou late, ind a vare hangine around did ! bat the marrajor.

what the hoil, sittine to the roon la "larl.. And that dali.

no'ra waitiny for a contact.

I said what's tho story, did Nob Sui!, doll, you ::o%. is

yot a cortract to take cara or rantro, ina klad ol controe.?

lou are you goi: to do

it?

1 hotela. This lould is sors:hir:

that clA concoctal.

i9r. 80stal. ila's

it linil?

11r. 5hin0i. lla said a liquid.

ail. ll a minute, l hear this, l' a coo, you realis.

They're callinn shout hillian conchors. : dor' care who jo i.

i'm yeill madrid a bin.

to at 111 and peed 111 for two of three late and than die.

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10

nothing sudden, and then an autopsy would not reveal hatavor

k1llad him.

3

sho was goina to adminiator lt? Some fellow was comina by

and althor ha had a cousin who was the chal for Castro, or ho

had a frlend that was a chef for Castro, one of those, Maltina

6

to hear from him.

7

The poison was passed. Wall, wa kicked it around, and I'm

Ivory familiar with ancurity for heads of novernment, and I want

"ianto great dotall and told them what I had to do, the lob 1

ained to do with the suasion pained, what was do with the Preslian",

1:

and I said, hell, thin quy's probably an axnart at ararasinallor:

i: himagle, lla's not noden to 10 /0r a 8h18 1819 1h19.

Furthormora, l think his necurlty le yo nurlact that

¡: ovarybody on hin stall would sure as hall ln chacked out as to

i: thair relativas and who was in axlle and what. the hell, and

i' thare's another thing, they all agroud about one out of avary

i: fivo of thoss axilos belongs to castro, lo plantos Florida

:: full of than.

ind he said wull, they knew there dere sone plantal. Air!

: 1 said, I chink you'll find chart's a holl of a lot glentail.

::.

and thin 1s a great secret, nobody's runneral to inor 14, the

Bursau -- well, way down desp -- holl. Likd l aall, to ma it

was a loko, to by houtst witt. you.

I'm a pro, You don't do it that way, You krow, sona nur..

2: and l sald you'in naylon this fallow? oh, ian. Hall, that'n

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2

anough for me, You don't alve him anythina untll he brinan

ithe body back.

Dut anywar, I forget whether lt was that ninht or the

naxt night, we all want and we had dinner and then we went to

¡sas the Jimmy Duranto nhow and the whole mann, and we harl

Sinatra, tuanty-aix of us vent to dinner, but anyway, the contact

vas mada. And thia fallow showar up outside the noom noom roon.

Mr. Fostal. This is whoro?

Mr. Shimon. The Fortainbloau.

I a short auy, and I calt like he had a reddinh tint to his

1: "halt. lle didn't balong in the lobby, lla looked 1lke a bed bur

"In a silkor. bed.

ia' Mr. Postal. Ihat was he direnser 11ke?

Mr. Shimon, He harl a dark shirt, arl a shirt on, opar.

:: ¡collar, no tie, lle looked 11k0 a typical Cuban that vou saw

up and down the stroots. You know, Miand Beach was loadlad with.

:: them.

:: I remember saylna son, this la a croon. hat the hell ia

:.*h1s? Baccuse sam took a dim view of it.

liall, Johnuy diadpogarnil with this sui.

1r. Postal. Did Johnry toll you that ho marlo the -.

M5. Shimon.

No, no, Bob said, he's soina the talkin.

i: Johnoy'e golia to handlo averythina, this la Johany's contect.

:: So while we ware walting, I was atrolllis around, Johiny cains

i! back, ho hail to no nad nume French antertainos, and no soparate!

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12

119009 7933 se4

and Sam ind I horo walking, doing somo window shopping, and

ho said, how in the holl did you got into this, and I said 1

cano to ada a fight, what ara you doing In 147 and no said. l

am not in 1e, and thoy're asking mo for some names of ques win

! unad to work in casinor.

And then ho almo mid thia, it was crazy, that inhou'r

:: conning the hell out of tha CIA. No Aalu It's a laugh. 1'"

so chen thoro was a big party, an all night thing, goem: 'r

cluu lo clus with sinatray and overylnely ue drunk exert in.

had too haul Mahou du on my back and but men in end tub do aa... 1:

¡o cano back to dashinoton.

ant !. 168 10100. 1. 111

1n Time Wissiid10801 dread an donut loes dogs need the flie nai....

1ó.19

"you see the jrt? castro's illa he's doing en be diei too

or three daise low, ve ane him.

the suit and planted the story.

r. 19191.01.

Ar. chinon.

Had you qot li tree the tradities!

1 read!

l'ugell, You ain the reirie"

"!.

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17

Just amstaurs. I maan, I couldn't flqura Cil --I knou tharo's

2

¿ a lot of abla quys and I have a lot of raspect for them, thera'a

raally sona 100d oparatora there, but. thia was a atupid

operation. I couldn't bollavo it. You don't set up a thina--

mall, I'm not to1nn to tall you how to set it up. You'll thiri

I've been doing thin thing for a llving or sonathing and vou

wondor why they call me in. Hall, I vondared why they calla!

line in, othor than I thint they wanted a Washington contact for

"len work in case noi waan't avallabla bucauno he was on tha lunton

:. I pay5O21 40O, YOU krioH.

::.

Mocauss whan Johnny came du town, live one tina ha calle

:: Me, ho said ClA vanto to locate thres Cubana, and Chay're

:. supposed to lie in some hotel in lashiator, and the !arer

. thought came to mind, the CIl, why can't they call the hotels

.: and flud out for themselven.

¡ow, I'm sundosad to do lt, volice ianartnant lacilitler.

!: Hall, it wasn't much trouble, I could just say to one of my

clerks,

call tho hotel and eard out.

So l picked up

:: Johnny and 1 take him to lunch, and the funny thing, cominy bir.

: from lunch joing toward tho Mayflower Hotel, there in front ":

:. the annapolid llotol were tho three, ho know those three.

:: Apparently ha'll talked to them balore, and there they wore o1:

: the corder. so he not out of the car ard I drove around the

:. corner arol he stood and talked to those man for batter than

:: two boure, ad than wa vant directly to the hotal and chocker!

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In, and atraight to my house and ha picked up the phone and

I called B1g Jim O'Connall and Miy Jim came over.

and ho raported to Dig Jim whatevar took place at this

meeting with thase Cubans.

3

Non, I didn't ait in on that, bacause I didn't vant to

hoar 1t.

7

Mr. Postal. Do you know when that was, what time? man

did that take placo, do you linow?

Ms, Shimon. A couple of monthe aftar the fight.

Mr. PoRtal. A counle of monthe after the flaht?

!:

Mr, Shimon. it was in the spring of the yoor, lt war 19ri.

:: "

Mr. Rhea, Wher. you ware down In Miant, 1la vou san

.. Bly Jim dow:: thare?

!;

r. Shimon. io, no.

::.

Mr. Portal. Uld arybody suggest ho was in town, In 4ianl?

it is. Shimon. lls das not In town, becauns we would have

::.soan hia. I have met pig Jim in lob's house many timar.

fact, I tron Jim and 1? haid been anywhere in town, I mean

:. ever 1! ho had not called, I would have krows lt was h1n.

: No, he wasn't tharr on that trl.

::.

Mr. Postal. Did vou avar sas Johnny with Rig Jim?

1r. Shimon. Oh, yoah, we oll had dirnar together ont

:. add to got drunk and wa but him on the plane. One or thora

imessy nights, you krow.

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MI. Postal, When was that, do you know?

Mr. Shimon. Somatime that sama yoor.

Mr. Postal, llad they baan comina from someplaco tonather?

Mr. Shlmon. No, they mat hure. Johnny was horn. I had

6

7

¡him in the llay-Adama -- not. the llay-Adams, the lamilton Hotel.

¡Ha did our drinking in the Purple room and jim cano over.

MT. Postal, Mall, let'n focin for a minute on the sulte

8

Ide, the fontalnhleau when Johnny was talking about the polnor.

¡hat were sam'n Inactions to what Johnny was talkina about?

16.

"Has he saying anythina there?

1:

Mr. Shimon. llo was nittler there with a player, ho had

:: e thina du bla dor. le was latonden to all of alratray caran.

1: almatra would nand thom dows a 9o9, this plietro was a inal

¿: pain to us. lla was a preet admirer a- ha june arlorad sam or

:. "anybodo, la'd be callina down avery lifteen minutas wontire

'to como dowi.. San days, no, don't lut the bly mouthal guinea 1a ture.

You kron, ho blew off Lucky Luciano with that bla mouth o! sir.

and 1f he yous any wind of this it will be all over, because

!: he'll brag about it.

So he kept pondina these capes down and than ho woul! cal!.

:: dies sam lito lt. San was listaniao to the tapes, Hal! o! tha

%.: "tine he doos::'t know what wa're talking about and la doran'

i: care. dul le you knew lem at all, ha's the mogt dotralei su.

:. In the world, You know, you're ir the roum arl he doesn's kiew

:: what you're altina about, le doonn't care, othar than ho'd

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16,

laugh at soms of these thinga, you know, thens Jamds Bon

i paople calling, Cll quys, you knou, kill Cantro.

Mr. rostal. What about Dob Mahou, what was his raaction?

MI. Shimon, Hall, now, Bob was vary sarlous. Moh was, a

li that time, raving a show. Altos all, ho vas on the payroll.

A they ware paying the rert on 19th Stroat, ClA Dald all the

rent, all the axpansas, and he was very mariann about it, he

took thle thing aarloualy bucausa ha sold the program. I undar-

stand lt was hiu orlainal ires.

Mo. lawson. Whate do vou met that undergrandine tron?

::

"r. Shimon, I not that from san aid Johnny manorally.

" No were talking about it. The farat thint l nald wan how 1i

1: "the holl doud he comy un with you quys, lunu know, vall, l+

:: was hia Idea, lie put it altonather, aril sohnny's a areat

flaquaver aud strlotly -- In anita of his baccaround, ho's er.

All inarican quy, wave the flag, stand up and sina the star

1: Spangled Bananas, as we call it, but sam warn't, you couldr't

even draft him, he didn't want any Dart o! 1t.

"'t. Dawson. Did thay tell you or relate to you in ary "a:

: wher, the first contact with lahon, when ho had dIrat hayn

i .

cor.tacisd by Mahou?

it .

shimon. No, geraral conversation. & Imarina any or

the trios, nob was travalling back and forth slery wask to the

:: Hest Coagt and Vogas, an

It could have happoned any tima. It

%!.

could not have houn diractly to sam. I don't think ho talker

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to sam.

?.

johnny probably brounht sam Into 1t heraura Sam was not

permittad to come to Navada, ha nas barrod, the whols blacki1nt.

l'you know, so I imagine Dob had to go to chicago to talk to him

6

with johnny and Introduce him, because i don't think Bob knew

I sam, because sam vas out of the pleture, ho could not come to

Veaas.

Mr. Dawson. Has It. your indraanlon that he had a lons

relationahip in regard to thie arsassination attempt?

1:

Mr. Shimon. No. No. I thint noh uns tryina to hurtle

==

1: up of trying to get the contract for none of the lavan buriara

:::: and do had some of it and he alroady had a nood ellent,

!:, had Milton Marla was one and drother muy wan a cllant. Thie

:: was running two or three thourand dollars a month tryina to

:: set us the quy'o wife in Now York.

¡I. Dawson. Do you have any spycific recollection that

!: ¡ thare had boon a lonastandlig relationshin to try to assassirato

.. Castro?

¡r. shimon. My fooling was that thls thing came to a har!!

i In the none -o that the whole thing cane to a head Ilaht there

:.le the fontainblodu, becauso 1 had a leslina that san did not.

kron anything about it untll that day.

:.:

:1r, Postal. lihat about Johndy?

"r. Shimon.

Johnny, l had a leoling, had talked and kriot

:! "a about about it. Iroloct, thate had baon a mastine and he was

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7

to maat somebody, So there had to be soma contacto mado baforo.

It mann't just a quick contact.

Ms. Contal. Did you ask Johnny ahout 147

Mr. Shimon. No, no. All my conversation about thia, more

Mor l08s

•, I uas not clone to Johnny, really, it was nob.

nob 8a1d, l0ok, thia 19 a Bureau thina, we're sottina It up,

Chia is what they want dono, you know how they oporate, did not

want to talk about 1e.

Mr. PoRtal. It was a nurnau thinn?

Ma, shimon. What wa call the surenn la tho cla.

Mut you don't kunw thrt they hail a lonn

:.

:.

:..that corract?

::"s, shimon. I don'e baliave le was a long rolationahl:.

i'I can tall you why, I thint the firet thlur -- and this l9 -

lous opindo: - the firet thire the Maheu wes dolin or cir

." was du the Dominicas: Remunile.

1r, 1haa. And What. Was tha?

tir. shimon. Salling than a lot of saulpment and dolin

:a lot of work, bocause when lorrle treat not Into tha alatus..

• :

the ill all Trujillo, no: atepped out and said to me, do you dunt

;:

that contract to work with thats only down thore, thare's a

lot of monou in 14. And 1 sali, I don't want ary part of

:: Trullilo. So ho turned the coltract over to Johnay frank whe

:: Worked du hia offlee. Johnny used to lo a cla anant and an "ni

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guy.

C

1.

And then you know Johnny, who was convicted of fallinn to

registor as a coralan arent, but then he handled the thine, er!

the thing got real hot, and then when they klller Galendas 171

and Bob wanted to shake all knowladas of that, although thay

6

had Bob and Johnny Frank sight by the rod ound on that, although

they couldn't prove 1t.

So that I think was a ClA thing ordainally, and that 90ge

back to the time that the rant was boing pald and all.

1.1

MR. Postal, Dirl Rob avar pay you alout work hn dla for 'e

1:

Cin 11 ratting womon for forelan loaders, or aruthina like cho!?

it, shimon. Not for the ClA, he did lt for the store

1:

1:

repartmant. That was into auy in interbaloo suicine?

oh, verts.

¡I got the broads hare for him. I gave him the number of tha

Icall girls. Stato Departmant palr for 1t.

A former Bureau arent, usad to hy stylur Bridges'

1: administrativo assistant and they sur him over thore in charre

i of stste socurity, you know that myant they wanted to put

!:, evorylody ou l1d detactor toses to des how many honoraxuals.

:.

aral then they made him the Ambassador to Ireland, jose, l cou!'

talk old day about that nue. le would be the one to call

girls tor burne.

and of couras,

in the bogartnant. oll

:: I had to do was no to the filo to mat any'number of call ni:ly

:: that no had on tilt, hall of then were our own inlormere, anil

:.:.

nay take your pick.

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Mr. Pontal. Whon you were dows In Mland at the Fontaliblady,

2

diel you hava any occanton to ass any Fll drants around?

Mr, shimon, Noll, I am suro thare mare tho FBi arenta

and I'll tall you why, lo ware aittine in the noom room room

6

and of all poople, Paul Young that owna Paul Yound's rostaurant

and the collon that oura the blake Construction Company, who's

7

now doad, Jato somebody, they camo in and Jolned un, and thoy

camo di, Paul racoanlied me, came in and nat down at the table

and they brought a couple of broads, that's all we nasdod.

So no'ra nittino around and l hapoon to nianca at the

tably adloladia us, working thron a manu la a suy takina

"picturns with a camara of the whole table. And!! lust sali to

¿bob, lay, l sala, rare, Bonniody's taking dintures, nat sam

¿i lout of hate firet and let's ase sho's drawing the hoat.. sum

:: I would bo the natural quy to draw hoot.

And murs arouch, sam not un and nauntored out of the

i:" soon room loom, and with that, thang to tallows not ur air!

walked out bahind him. So Bob and I drowngd hahind them.

to sam sauntered all around thosy long halls, 1f you're

: familiar with the fontainbinau, you can valk for s weak, su!

i:

thats ananty bohind him, and auddarly the arante discovere!

'Wo word bohind thon, and thay ducied into the room, and into

:. '

One ul the bary ar! sat dowin.

Mr, Postal, Did you son him ani nore durian the nei'

:.:

Mr. shimon.

"in, we wain on the look-out ter than.

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2.

6

7

Mr. Dawson. Do you know who the two aronts ward?

Ms. Shimon. I saw ond of than in Hashington lator, 1 know

¡l know hla nano, bacaurn ho kind of leoted at ma, i don't

think he was haspy with my for soma reason or anothar.

Mr. Footal. Ail rinht.

I'd like to direct your attention now to a allahtly diffarant

¡poriod of timo, that la the Las Vegas virotap situation.

To the bant of your knowledge,, was the CIA Involvod In

¡that?

i:

Mr. Shimon. Nover, no way.

Mr. Portal. Ihat wore the circumstancer surrounilina that:

"Ir. shimon. Sam was li: love with Phullls --you knos,

l: sam was a widower, playine the piola, but suddanlo ho gut uite

1: a case off for Phyllin, wild about hor, in fact. Sha was

i: plajina lovada, and of courss, with sam's connactiona, nverychlis

i was at his fingortips, so the llttle story you out that sha

1: was playing around with other kowen or Martin, I fornet which

? one has the great lover. Mod san was a very jealous callow.

i: vory possessive, and ho wanted! to know 11 this as the truth.

you hood, 1f this was a choatin broad, he didn't went hor

:: around.

So has got john there bacauso ho couldn' cono in, to not

: Mahou bocours he kise Mahou dii this sort of thin, or had this

:: dorio, to bug the room, or whatever lt war.

:::

so Mahou gavo the contract to a follow namoil suñola, a

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formor friend and an arent 1r. Mland, and ho brought two tallows;

¡an and they mado tho Inatallation, and then they went into the

¡craw tables and didn't cover thair Installation, and that is

: why le blau.

Now, of course, the Fll got into it. and they wanted an

6 jindictment, a bla liventigation, and talkad to not, and nob

7

¡vas atandina still and was supposed to sit st1ll and not name

¡who hirad him, and ha was alttlin still, l talked to hin

almont avary day, l wan holdirg h1a hand, bocaura ha was

neared, and the local numer know that I know lobs very wall.

:: that uned to tld me at polico haarquartere nailna that 1rlan!

:: o! youre in really coin un the ladder this tlao, we're roles

:: to drep him. la's mittlin still, but han selll not to no,

:: and anyway, ho didn't alt atill too lone.

But finally, he did nano, Ma said, doll, I'll tall jod.

•. I don't know the men that really hired me, other than tha

:"called him Johnny.

siall, if you said Johnsy in Veras in thore years, there

:: was silv one Johnny, he ran the whole strin, to the int went

: riahe to Johnnu, of course, Johnny

wouldn't tall than anythi..

so thay wont on, procodina to branare an indictrant, they

wore nuiny to indict Johnny cid 3oh.

Hol set un his one defense, Ho ampodled, l thlat, to 1y

Jim

lirnt and lin lin carrlal the mangade that 1f chle thin

broke, do would have te use the Cartro thine as a la?area.

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" He was golng to say that bacause of sam'a kuouledgo, ho vas

afrald that sam mlaht have boon talking to Phyllis and "hyllia

•Insant do in bad with rovan or Martin and tellina tram about 1t.

It was no carfetched it was sidleulous, but the CIA bourht 1..

and thay wort to the Dapartment of Justico and stoppad the

¡indictment.

7

Mr. Postal. All right, now, lat's nall down the timoframo

¡and consider the facto hare.

Sam pald for the tap, la that riaht?

Mr. shiron. 55,000. That's accordin" to sam's own

i: ntatanant.

Mr. Pontal. Midl that monor was pald to lo! lahou

!: and then lob sort the contract out to Miami arl to Dubolen and

1: DuBoiso sont the guys out?

i:.'

Hr. Shimor. That's right.

4r. Postal, la de possiblo then lot could hayo Involver

i: the cid in the tap and you not know about it?

MI. shimon. It's possible, hut ho could not coll tro cli

:: Or a tap likt that, bocauss the story was ridleulous. Thers'a

• io tools in the cin, really, They're no cluntors.

Ro! was

:.

doind the sort of thirs that burned sam un and an a matter oi

:::

lace, it cooled un all off on Bol that he could do a than latio

:.

trils, bocause li mado sam 100% ridioulous, The Pureru wo

:..

right to sam, ioo, you know, arl san nays, what do you moan:

:: Has talking to some broad about somethina? This la crazy. tri

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20007077 346

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=:

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was novor known to hava too much mouth nhout anything, and par-

tleularly to toll a girl that ho know somethiny alput a plot

and the do turn wan sleeping with somobody ulne, and nois in the

i maantino wan chocking for a lank, why didn't la chock Joinny?

"ir, rontal. Hell, let mo ask you thin now.

No havo establishod the pilla woro pannod in 1961.

Mr. Shimon. It wan

supposad to bo a liquld.

Ar. Postal, Llnuld, l'm sorry. In the spring o? 1961.

Mr. Stilmon. Yoo.

Mr. lontal, Do you know when the wiretap securrod?

ir. Shimon, Montha lator.

Mr. boutal. ll ampeared after this?

iro shimon. arter thin, yodh, months later.

Mr. 80961. Moll, the recorde at the bureau at the :..

ol the virutay as bulno seraber of loit, 101e decober 1900.

Pr. Shimon. in, they're irons.

1r. lostal. 1o it possible that you could havo been in

al a diffurent time?

tir. thiron.

110.

I was only there dude, and la going "

1c1l you the l know, because after this toy

anitali

etie

investiantion, the indietront as dillon, many months corded.

1!n: 1'111

interer-tod lohnny monolll on tou atront in loverl;

•l showed time picture d! e voma with drielle bore and ma.

we're the puld dare third indise clito.

He line that cou're on alion, tour done in soces. lie i:.

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177246,

1

2

4

6

7

Who you'ra working for, and you're golny to work for us or alnu

you sa going to ba doportod.

Now, soln Immodiatoly got on tha phona, callad no, cano er

How York and la brought his attornay and no talkod shout it, an

thon ho cama to washington and looked up lid forgan, usad to bo

an Inspoctor of tha FBI, and Bald, what am i going to do about

this, and Id's advico was why don't you work sor than, and

I anda, Ed, you ro not talling thin guy to bocono a ntool

polguon for the ral, are you, he won't bo nilvo a rook.

And to nald, wall, long Knoon Lohmann (l) waa a neonl

i: 1 11ge0n for un for ton yours and insted a lone tine, and I luns

:: I told Johnny to corpot 1e.

Mr. Postal. The buntrunn wieh the wheen ramn decurre.!

1: " a son juare lator, didn't 1e?

Ar, shimon. Yoah, yorl.

Mr. Postal, Lut'n go back to the chimitrane of 1960 and

a: " "61. 55 wa can place the tinetrano in tie fall n! 1'940 -

ir. Shimon. That'n not the top I'm talking about, beca.

:: I had nos met sam in 1960 and I called to dan about enir in

• i 1960.

:.

::: 1:

.::.

Ar. Postal. You talked about the wiretep to san in l:

Ar. Shimon.

Noonuno he called no all linda of dirty raw:

and chin made him look 11ke a rond Man, and than Dut the heil! ?:

Ly sending in the Bureau on 1:.

Mr. Pontal. loll, when you met dam in Miand and you

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26

i :

nora thore with johnny and Bob, haù there alronly boon a mirotal!

2.

in Las Vogas? Did thay talk about the wiratap no 1f 1t had

alroady happonna?

Mr. Shimon, No, no convorsation at all.

ar. Postal. All right.

6

Now, lot mo ank you this.

Won bob Mahou wont to Bla sim D'Connoll and said, 100k.

1111 Jam, 18 you don't halp us with thia taj wore guina to tel!

i about tha cubin thing, had ho boon calkine about tho bocilo se

Int t001n0n that had happoned mon you woro in Mlani, or has he

:: talking about anothor timo?

15, shimon, lo was calling abode cho lotelo of insison asi

:!.that particular trin.

That was suppoded to be passed an inar

:: trip.

:..

15. Postal, That's want ho talid to lla lim abou:?

"r. Shinon.

No, not to u1a dia. "y ranuledge, l didn't

i" hear him calk in ilig jim about that at a1l.

vir. lonel, liell, lor's noo it we can get chin atrolah:.

h: It wais now that ialled to big dim?

Mr. Shimon. He war Palad Me the BADd.

: handine the cla in and bob was handlin: Johnny.

it. Pontal, Johnny.

Anal don aid to lie din, you've goe to do tomochine de!

4111#

meanseucion with due Justice Desserrent.

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: "no nald de lo sono follow. Thore was another nano, cianon os

: romollina.

sis. Postal. that's the nano?

te. Shimon, lan thoro a siason, somo higher mis

in the est.

11e? over lisa sim, and I'm going to toll you why, whon Johon!

i i mas calking to mo aftor thia, la sald, okay, ne wani you to tie

:¡ovor cortain anpocta of this socurity in Vendo, but no don'e ware

•you to be idonelfiod with us, so la want you to baci in. cin

• Ban a proluce pulaide of vegan. You sat on tho sayroi: chore a

cono 0i! the cla portoll into Veran, no tleg won't t10 you --

wouldn's bre ed any valun it they ded ne do, to the candoje?".

. :

11?

1 ean tolt tou. le was one of the ablatot ilio:.

:.

seo thimon. that'e right. ile maid, tell land io call

t: 11l0a1100 dit.

tutate cart.

1.!11! 1001d 111E k1i11.)

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FWARD/amnl

t. Za Shimon

9/12

11-

28

Mr. Pootal. Int's go back on tha rucora.

Mr. shimon, wa would like to once main go through the

chronoloys of the dator.

le have cortain documonte which suhatantiato nost of thri

detalla you haun given us, but the dator wa nro having

AOMO

problons with.

You are nure that you were in Mlami at the countainblou

al the timo of the Johanson-Pattorson l19ht?

Mr. shman. to question, and I anw the knockout and

cade bach en tho hotel with baul Young and Into, and went wi

to 51ner ' e 90110 and met the ipvornor',

comerl there, and so bad a party, no question aboue de. in.

natra was blagled de the same tare..

Ma. lostal. Where wau he playsms?

In the fountainhlou.

10. lostal. At the Fountainileu.

Mr. Shimon. Yes.

Ho. Khoa. bas that the bone dry that you son this llu. !

uldn't see liquid ben: bused.

"r. Pogtal. That you now the bottle?

t: 119199111

That night of the next Alht. 1! 1a1 11 1.

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C, ma/ 4001 703 1 941

i.

of 24 or 48 hours, I couldn't roally say. I know, the nishe

na saw the guy with the rad halr, that's tho night that Johnny

was rupposad to pass it.

Mr. Postal, Doas the date March 12, 1961 sound about

right?

Mr. Shimon. I know 1t was carly in the yoar. You. It

was in tha spring of the yoar.

MI. Postal. Tho apring of the yoar?

In thoro any way you can pog that? Did you havo vacation

time or a wookend or some ovant that might fix it in your mir!?

Mr. Shimon. As I say, the only thine that dixes it in

my mind, that's the only heavyweighe fight I went to soe outs:'"

of lisshington when we had heavyweight fight: here. when 1

used to run the Buroau, I used to have a pickpocko: detail. i

used to go out and see that the boys were working. I wouldn'

look at the fights. I wouldn't watch the bums out there.

An:

this one l had to sit through at ringside and watch these two

bumg. That is why I remember.

MI. Postal, Do you recall at that tine anyone showing is

a magazine article? Did Bob perhaps bring a magazino articl

to your attention about sam or any of the people that were

there?

Mr. Shimon. No, but I had road a magazine article about

san in one of the crimo magazines, and l was kind o! surprise:

that 1 mot him face to lace thore. I had road about him wher.

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is

i .

he was supposed tó ba responsible for 40 murdors, where tho

: last ono was some guy

thay stuffod in the sewor, a nightclub

owner, and that stuck in my mind whon I saw him that this is the

guy I was roading about.

MI. Postal, How about the namo joo Traficante? "Does that

• ring a bell?

MI. Shimon. No.

Mr. Postal, Or Santos Traficanta?

MI. Shimon. No.

Mr. Postal. Whon you woro in Mlant, old Sam talk about

the wiretap?

Mr. Shimon. Not a word.

Mr. Postal. When was the flist tire you heard about the

. wiretap?

Has that after that?

Mr. Shimon. After that, when bob callod me and said the

FBI were going to indict him.

Mr. Postal. So shortly after the cine you were in Miami,

Bob told you that the FBI was gotting ready to indict him,

for wiretap.

Mo, Shimon. Right.

Mr. lostal. And then he told you the story of the wirees.

In what timeframe did he place the wiretap, Did ho tell

you all about the wiretap gometime before?

Mr. Shimon. No, I havo no timo!rano othor than there

was a wiretap, the boys had it, thoy blew it and that the bureau

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i had it, and there was. a stink coming up.

Mr. Postal. So it was somothing that happened carlier.

Mr. Shimon. Could have happoned corller. This 1a when

the Burdau was

putting the heat on him.

Mr. Postal.

About the time you were in Miami.

Mr. Shimon. No, this was after Miami.

Mr. Portal, Just aftor Miami.

MI. Shimon. Becausc it was shortly after --now, when tho

thing was finally settled, Bol wan fired hy CIA -- now this 1s

according to sam -- and 1 suddenly ronlized lob suddenly picho

up and moved, sold his houso and mover in california, and sinn

I saw Johnny on one of his trips here, wondering whe ho hadn'i

called. Hormally he would be calling ilob, and he said somethin,

well, Bob's not in it anymore. And in subsequent years when

1 got talling about -- when I talked to sam

in later years about.

this thing, he said well, you notice, Harvey took it over

and they har! to got rid of that, as Harvey descriled it.

dirty double-crossing son of a bitch that blew the whole chini

to save his unn ass. This is to way harvey deseriber Maic.

and in fact, he said to Johnny, monebsly nucht in till that.

son of a bitch.

Mr, l'ostal, Have you not will Harvey?

Mr, Shimon, I know who he in. 1 didn't mot him.

used to have an office here, and long around the Madison Horri.

1 set up tho meanity at the Madison, soo l kleel

"vrybody that

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of coursa, I usad to put Johnny in thoro and then llaruny would

come in to soo him.

Mr. PoRtal, Whan dld Harvoy's association with Johnny

bogin; do you knou?

MI. Shimon. It began, I bollovo, aftor they ilrod

6

Mahou.

MI. Pontal. Do you know when that would be?

Mr. Shimon. This would bo after the Dopartment of Justico

agroad not to prosecuto Mahau, and then CIA had to dump

Mahou and get him off the payroll.

Mr. Portal. How long aftor the time you wore in Minni?

Mr. Shimon. Months. This would Have to ho some months.

MI. Postal. A fow

montha, a lot of months?

No. shimon. I woulá any fivo, alx, seven montha. It

:: would have to be that much time.

Ms. Postal, Before the thing was finally put to rost?

Mr. Shimon. Yes.

MR. Postal.: So 1f you were in Miami, say, in March,

you think it would he put to rest, when, around August or

september?

is. shimon. Yos. Why I know that, guddenly aftor it wai.

:: all put to rest, Johnny disappoared. Couldn't find Johnny

: anywhoro, and sam couldn't find Johnny, the cia put Johnny

;.

undur wrays.

Now, lator I learned that Johnny was hore. They havo a

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hidaout apartment. lle vas doing thinga here. Khataves they

had, they ware working back and forth, flying in and out. D1g

¿Jim vas in on 1t becaura ! sald to johnny ono time, I aald, you

know, I can't underatand this, you being in Hashington all of

those wooks and months and you didn't call ma, and he sald

6

Harvey told him not to call me because he nald he's still closo

? " to that son of a bitch Mahou, and no don't want Mahou to know

i anything.

MT. Dawson. You said he's still close to that son of

a bitch Mahou, ho boing --

!:

ME. Shimon. Me. Bocause ho know I was still visiting

:: With Bob, seeing boh, going out to the went coast, He didn't

!: want Johnny to be telling me that -- Boeing or having any

1: connoction with Mahou.

i:

MI. Postal. Hell, let me step out of thia timeframe and

ask you one question.

1:

Did Johnny ever tell you that the Attornay General, Bobby

1" Konnedy, had sent someono to him to bo put in contact with

:' somo Cubana while he was at that apartment. In iashington?

:

MI. Shimon. Mo, no, ha nevor montionad that.

Mr. Postal. Do you know the details of how nig jim

;:.

took caro of tho prosecution with the Dapartmont of Justice?

Mr. Shimon. I think ha viritod the Attornoy Gonoral.

: •

M5. Postal. Do you know when that was?

:.

•Big Jim wont?

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MI. Shlmon. B1g J1n. I get this from Blg Jlm himsoll

becauso ono time wo were talking about Dig Jim going to the

Long committoo, and he nald ho had to go to the long Committer

to got Bob ballad out, using the samo axcuses ho usad carlier.

¡l So 1 assume he did 1t using the samo excuso ho used earllos.

MI. Postal, Lot mo ask you this, If no place the viratap

I' 1n 1960 1n the fall of 1960, that's a hall a year before you

More In Miant, would that change the way you loel about the

tlmo?

1:.

Mr, Shimon. Tha only way I could explain that would bo

:: that it took the burdau that long to work up thatr caso on

:: Dob. Thara might havo hoon a lot of mirntapa, you know. Voy...

1: '10oked 11ko a spider's wab. Evorybody mas tappod. They migh:

1÷

have been building it all up, had Bob under nurveillance or

working on the boys, working on the guys. It might hava been

:: nonths bafore they decided to confront Bob with that. I can

undorstand that, sure, how they could have walted all this tine

:. to finally say now, Bob, we want to tall to you. And that'a

¿procedura, Sure, that could happen.

MI. Postal. Did Bob tall you -well, lot ma ast you -...

did Bob first toll the Bureau that, the CIA was involvod in t"

:: Vogas tap?

Me. Shimon. I don't think Bob ovor told the Bureau. !

think 1! Big Jim was the one that wont down, ho was the ono

i.:

that did it; not Bob. To my knowlodye Bob has novor said anyali::.

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to anybody in the justice Departmant of the duroau de to what

he did. This was done through an agent of the cis.

MI. PoRtal. Do you know a man by the name of san Papich?

MI. Shimon. No.

MI. Postal. Our recorda have shown un, in fact, Bob did

6

talk to somobody at the Dureau.

7

Holl, let me ask you this. Hon long aftor the tino you

More In Miand do you rocall was the Bay of Piga operation?

Mr, shimon. Oh, the Bay of figs followed 1t.

1:

Ms. Postal. Shortly?

MI. Shimon. Oh, yeah, within a couplo of wooke or a month

::: or 80. In fact, they were talking about it ne the tablo.

M5. Postal. Who was talking about 1t at the tablo?

Mr. Shimon.

I don't know whether it was sam or Johnny

i or bob, you know, I hope they hold that thing off and soo it ic

can get this thing behind us.

MI. Postal. This was goiny on in the conversation at

:. dinner?

15. Shimon, Yeah, that they figured they were tryiny,

somebody nald stall the Bay of Pigs oporation.

Ms. Postal. They called it that?

Mr. Shimon. Whatavor they callod it. I know thon thore

was supposed to bo an invasion of some kini. - Tha government ...

1s the only timo I heard kannody's name montioned.

MI. Postal. Why don't you toll us tha whole convoraation

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as best you can rocall it.

Me. Shimon. It was a convorantion about an attack. or

somobody was going to move in on Cuba. A lot of guys, racruito.

5

guys, aro being trained down in the junglo somonhere, and tho

romark was mado at the table, I hope Bobby or somebody holds

this off until no get a crack with our program on Castro, becau:..

If we can knock him out, no won't have to -- you won't have to

6

do the othor thing.

Now, that's the gist of the thing. It meant nothing to

2. 1

me at tha tino othor than lator on when there mas the Day of

::'

Pigs, & ramomborod that little convorsation, that's all.

M5. Postal. Do you think it una Bob lahou that mado the

::, comment?

:: Mr. Shimon. It could have boen. It could have been John:...

::' I know it wasn't san becauso Sam --

Mr. Postal. Was that the only nontion of Bobby?

Mr. Shimon. If there was anything also said, i don't

i recall it.

Mr. Dawson. You'ro not oven sure that ho mentionod

Robert Kannedy's namo.

Mr. Shimon, Yeah, Ilght, I'm not suro who --

%:

MI. Postal. You thought thay mantionod somoono namod

Bobby?

:.:

Mr, Shimon. Yoah, I thought they gald bobhy or somobody

lika Bobby should hold this thing off, whoover had the powor

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to hold it off. Non, it could not have been a Xennody, It

could have bean a Bobby anybody, but whoover they were talkiny

about, it could have bean somabody in the cIn, but I camembor

that bocause of tho Bay of Pigs, when the whole thing blow

up I somembarad that part of the conversation, and they varo

so sura that had their plan gone off, that the Bay of Pigs Hould

not have been nacossary.

Mr. Postal. Do you recall how long alter the Bay of Pigs

It mas bafore tho Attornoy Gonoral nas talked to by althos

Big Jim or whoovor?

:: !

Me. Shimon. I don't know. I couldn't tell you oxactly.

:...

MI. Postal. Holl, do you have any diea?

Mr. Shimon. Hell, I would say that some year of so because

:: aftor that, I say, i lost track of johnny other than the moauirar:.:

:. 1!

once with San and I saw Bob from time to time. That was it.

Mr. Postal. Did you keep in contact with san aftor this

, DC. 8000%

i:" time?

""

MI. Shimon. I wouldn't say in contact. San 1a a groat

:: quy for calling you 2:00, 3:00 o'clock in the morning from

:.

somuplaco and saying what's going on. lle did call soveral ties.

:.

and say what do you hear from Johnny, I hadn't heard anything

:..

from Johnny and neither had ha. And Johnny was undorground.

And I somombor calling him one timo, montha passod, what's

:: happonad to Johnny, You know, you figure somebody might have

:: killed him. And he said I don't know, I can't find out.

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il Bob couldn't find out.

MI. Postal. Lot mo ask you this.

Ho have Information to the affoct that prior to the timo

;

you vero in Miani, a subitantial perlod of timo prlor, Sam

•. had made a statament to someone who relayed it to the Bureau,

6 ; the Bureau being tha FBI, that somebody nas going to put somo

"; Palla in Castro's food of something like that.

Did Sam evar toll you about an eariler, any information

that he had provlously about thie kind of thing?

1.

Mr. Shimon. lo novor mantlonad 1t. Now, I was undor

1: the improssdon that this was San's firat vonturo with this

:: becauso ho roally --

!:

Mr. Dawson. But that's the only basis for it, do you could

i: bo wrong.

i:

Mr. Shimon. I could be wrong.

Ms. Dawson. What you balleve is otherwise.

Mr. Shimon. Yea.

MI. Dawson. Okay.

MI. Shinon. Anyhow sam talkod an many times about this --

so many times - he would have told me about any carliur --

i:.

I think he would havo montionod it somotime. In lact, I think

about a yoar ago last Chriatmas ho was at the house and wo

kickod tha whole thiny around, Maheu, the whole flasco, and

money, and you know, all the trouble it had brought, and holl,

I think ha would have brought it up.

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MI. Postal, Hhan Bob mont to the ClA after he had mentioned

Johnny's nama to the FBI agones, did you got the impronnion that

" he had worked this out with the CIA, or did you get the 1dea

that ha had to beat O'Connell over tha head a little bit before

5

6

Ms. Shimon, I don't know hou he did othar than he vas

well thought of, and as I nay, they ware picking up all the tabe,

i running the shou, Robert A. Mahou Assoclatos vas the front.

¡ so 1 quous he was in good standing, la didn't havo to boat

anybody I don't imagino.

Mr. Postal, Nell, did he say he nas going to havo to

:: reveal the CIA's actlulty with Cuba or did ho say Johnny nas

:: going to?

Mr. Shimon. He was goiny to have to do it, not Johnny.

:: Johnny wouldn't.

Mr. Postal. Bob sald ho would.

Mr. Shimon. Oh, yeah.

1:

Mr. Postal. Did Johnny tell you at the time you wore in

:" Miami whon he got that bottle of liquid, how long he had had

ie 1t?

1r. Shimon. He didn't toll me. I thought that Bob

had brought the bottle with him on the trip that I was with

*:

him on. I thought he brought it down, that night whan wo wont

:. to tho light. That was my improssion.

:..

MI. Rhea. Did anyone toll you that?

Mr. Shimon. No, but tha way tho bottle story came out,

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you knon, we've got the stuff and Johnny'a going to pans it.

7.

I assumed ho just brought 1t 1n.

MI. Postal. Do you romenbor the timo when san suad the fBi:

: " In Chicago?

3 :

Mr. Shimon. I remanbor reading about 1t.

MI. Postal. You talked to sam about 1t?

7

MI. Shimon. Holl, I talked to him a million timos about de.

MI. Postal. Holl, lot mo ask you this. Porhaps me could

focus on that for a second.

Do you recall san saying anything about the fact that ho

had takan the stand in

that action?

Mr. Shimon. Mo.

Ms. Postal. Did lie say anything about the fact that ho

; had worked out a deal of that a doal had bean worked out with

: the Dapartment of justico rolativo to him?

Mr. Shinon. He never workod out any doal, He just sald

he was so dann sick and tirad of being harrassed. Ho just

¿'said to his layyer, let's harrass thoao hastards, and that's tho

:: way he put it. And he said he sure harrassed them, and ho got

a ruling in his favor.

MI. Postal. Did San ever talk to you about bobby lannedy?

:.

1ss. shimon. No.

MI. Hostal, le nover montioned Bobby konnody to you?

MI, Shimon. Not that I rocall. It misht havo boon Bubb:

Konnody, l'o Attorney Gonoral, ho might have mentirnod the

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TOKO

"Attornoy Gonoral, but thare was no foaling, no personal expression,

none, nothing about kannady.

MI. Postal. Ild sam avor say to you that it was his

opinion that tha FbI was out to get him?

Mr. Shimon. Oh, yoo, because wa talked about what suddenly

brought all the heat on sam by the ful, and to traced to baek

= ¡ to Johnny's idontity on this tap, johnny to sam, and from than

" on the bureau movod in, they moved in on phyllio. Up to that

timo nobody had evor talked to Phyllis. Thoy harrassod her

: "

overywhore sho went, and then thoy atartod to harrass Johnny

:: back and forth, and they wore under constant aurveillanco.

: Johnny and Sam said, both said this was-the baginning of the

harrassment by the flil, up to that time thay wore novor bothe."!

by the FBI. The only prople that were bothering sam at all

• was the Crime Commission in Chicago.

J00 woods was alving them

.. a little trowsle. Joe was a former Bureau agent.

Mr. Postal. That's the McClellan Committee?

Mr. shimon. ¡lo, that was the crime Commission in Chicago.

.:Then he was elucted shoriff. His sistor's thu socretary to

Nixon.

Mr. Postal. That's Evelyn Hoods?

Is. Shimon. That's Rosomary Woods, lle usad to ho burnal

Ayent here and then he went privato, and then ho wont out te

Chicayo on tho Crime Comminsion, and he studied to be a

uriost, nice quy.

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410 0 01.

Mr. Rhoa, When ald you firat meat Jim O'Connoll?

MI. Shimon. Holl, I mat Jim O'Connall off and on soveral.

times in Mahou's house, probably lato '508, somewhero around

i

thoro, at parties.

MI. Rhoa.

Has it prior to this incidont?

6

MI. Shimon. It mas prlos to going to Miami, yeah.

7

115. Rhas. Did you know who Big Jim's omployar was?

Mr. Shimon. I knou ho was a CIl agent.

Mr. Rhoa. Did he over told you that?

Mr. Shimon. No, ho didn't, but i know ho was. ¿y

naighbors wore CIA ayenta.

Mr. Rhea. Old thay tall you?

Mr. shimon. Hall, we unad to talk about who's who, do

:: you know Joe.

Mr. Rhoa. Did you meat Mr. O'Connell at placos other

•' than 45. Maheu's house?

Mr. Shimon. Yeah. I met him at the purple froe Inn

one night, had dinner, went on a drunk, you know.

Mr. khea.

you mentioned a while ago that big Jin

had tallied to the Attornoy Goneral about the wirotapping.

MI. Shirion. No, he didn't tall me that. I sald ho told

me that he used

the same excuse or the same background to the

lona comittoe that he had used with

the Justice Dupartmen:,

when

they intercedud for bobby bofore. They intorcoded

the ::1*1

i.:

Limo innel the long conmittoc callud him, ne nanted the same

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blankot, and jim had to covor him with tho same blanket.

Mr. Rhaa. Did Jim O'Connoll tell you ha had intorcoder

for Mahou in tha tap, in the Mirotap caoo?

Mr. Shimon. lo did with the Long Comalttoo, ho had

darinitoly.

say anything about that?

Ms. Rhad:'. And with rogard to tha pronocution, did he

MI. Shimon. Holl, ho sald ho did 1t again, and this 1s

my assumption, lf he sald again, thera vas only tuico that

ho intarcodod for him.

Mr. Postal, Did Uly Jim say ho had gone to the Departmone

of Justice hingelf?

ir. shimon.

No, lie was talking about the long commietee.

Mr. Postal. But, the carilor timo.

Mr. Shimon. No, I didn't talk to him about the carlier

time.

Mr. Postal. Did ho ever tell you that big jim want down

there or did Bob tell you he went down ther:.

Mr. Shimon. No. That was im's own statament about the

Lon Committea.

15. l'ostal. Do you know a woman by the name of Judith

Campholl or Judy Camubell?

Mr. Shimon. I nover heard of lior. Never hoard o! 'vi.

lio, it doosn't atrike a boll at all.

•1s, l'ootal, Not in connection to John Rosyolli?

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Mr. Shimon. I met most of Johnny's femalo frienda, and

I nevor met a Judy Campball.

Mr. Postnl. Hon about a Judy Inmoro?

Mr. shimon. No.

MI. Postal. Of Yvonne Inmoro.

Mr. Shimon. No.

Mr. Postal, How about a woman by the nano of zolma

Cooliden?

Mr. Shimon. (Nods in the nogativo.)

Mr. Postal. Botsy Duncan?

Mr. Shimon. Hotsy the singer? Yoah, that's Botay chae'

married. A nice girl.

Mr. Portal. You knOW Intry?

Mx. Shimon. No.

Mr. Postal. Did you ever know has as 1alma Dewar?

Did you over mect a girl by the name of Judy Campholl

with sam or --

Mr. Shinon. No, I only not this solish girl. I don'e

knox hor nano. I didn't know her name, a vory, very procti

girl. She's the one that ho gave a ring to, and that's the

one that mudo him an exile. Her namo is

availablo, it's

in the l'olice Dopartment. He gave hor a riny. She took th

ring in to have the stone tightened and the juwolor saw the

mark, It was hot. He grabbed hor. Sho said she got it from

Sam. They grabbed sam, anil sam sald he bought it from a trien!.

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And there was a whole hassle and ho wouldn't tell who the

friend was, and Sam just packod up and movad to Moxico, That

; was ond of tho roasons. And this is what Attorney General

Mitchell used to laugh about, how they bluffed Sam Into going

into exilo.

6

Mr. Rhea. Did you ever hear the nama Tony Verona?

Mr. Shimon. No.

Mr. Rhoa.

Juan Orta?

Mr. Shimon.

No.

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Mr. Postal. Do you know a Carmina ballino?

Mr. Shimon. I know of him, yos.

I got a hoad full of

him, Joes, soal trouble i got Into juat by knowing the name.

Mr. Postal. For a moment lot's focus on that timo.

MI. Dawson. Hou did you got into trouble?

Did It have anything to do with the questions no're asking

you today?

MI. Shimon. No, thia 1a some of Bob'o, lie's a former

• associato of Bob'a, lle and Bob opanad a datactivo agency and.

: somothing happoned, and whon Bob mound out, ha turned most of

i. this stuff to tha mon who ware working for him, like B1l1

:: Angeloni and Johnny Frank.

• .

Mr. Dawson. Hall, you've answerod my question.

Thore's

no rcason to go on any further.

MI. Postal. What happened to cause a spilt botucen

Bellino and Maheu?

Mr. Shimon. I don't know, but thera's had blood betweun

them.

Mr. Postal. Did you know Carmine Bollino whon he way

workiny in the White llouse as a spacial consultant?

Mr, Shimon. I didn't know him at all.

Mr. Postal. Do you know of him?

15. Shinon. All I knew the name, that hu was formerl:

associatud with loh, and he's still very triondly with will

Anyeloni, who workod with ish for many, many yoars.

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Mr. Postal. Here you still on the polico dopartmant when

John Kennody nas Prosidant?

Mr. Shimon. Oh, yes.

MI. Postal. If John Kannady had any personal prolloma or

any trouble, would you haun heard about it?

Mr. Shimon. Holl, I'm trying to chink.

Mr. Pontal. Or anything of a parsonal nature that you

might have heard of?

Ms. Shimon. No, bacauro -- what mado me lauah was this

• Long committoe crowd cama up to ma and said that I unan't

levolling with them. And when thoy formod that committso thoy

:. didn't know anychina shout huguing, They camo to me, I javi.

them a complate course, took them around and shower thom

installations in town, showod them all the luronu installations

so they'd have something to work with. The invostigator, Cole, ly

an old friend o! mine.

But, he came to me with, you know, hostility and said,

you're holding out on us. And I said what. He says, wa know

.:that Mrs. Kennedy tired you to catch the f'runident with some

broad and you caught him. We want to know the story.

It was an ridiculous, and 1 gaid -- thay said, wo ave

this in black and white, now, you can't hack off this one. li.

wint you en tell at the story. And I told them in four shurt

worris, you 10

to holl.

Now, if such a thing did happon, and she did hire aonron..

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I don't know if he got caught or not, but a fellow namad

Richards handled it, and whon It was all over Richards took

:

his monay and vant to florida and stayor sway a couple ot years.

That was knowledge in the industry.

Mr. Postal. Do you know what the man's full namo 1a?

Mr. Shimon. Well, I don't know whothor ho's still a privato

7

суе or not.

MI. Postal. Richard'a his namo?

Mr, shimon. So cole has the story that I think the Lonn

Committoo har. They came back and apoloudzed and sald thay were

i.

воггу.

Mr. Postal. su some privato detactive was in fact nirou

to 100t Into certain indiacretions.

M5. Shimon. That was the atory around town. So I said

* :

it had to be Richard because that's the way I heard it. throud.

¿ che grapevine.

MI. Postal, Could it have been Carnine Bellino that was ..

Mr. Shimon. It wasn't Carmine Hellino. Tila was a

:: privato yuy, strictly a divorco yuy.

1Is, Dawson. May I ask a question?

Mr., l'ontal. sure.

Ms. Dawson.. To get back to the chronoloyy of the cIn

connoction with clancana and Rosselli, and particularly with

Rossolli, as woll as Me. Maheu, we havo !ound out tho date

the Johannon-latterson tight that took placa in Miami -chire

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ware three fights, it was the last one, it was March 12th.

1961. There la not a ainpla place of ovidance to place another

wiretap other than the one which I'll reprosont to you took

: placo the last part of October, 1960. And I'd liko to work

+ with you to try to figura out whether you're assuming that tho

a tap did not take place before tho fight, or you have somshou

placed thie incidont with the polson being in the possession

* of Mahou at an impropor time.

Mr. Shlmon. Well, I can -- this surfacod altor l had bron

:. to the Fontainblou when nob told mo. Now, this sap could have

:: been months ago. But whenever the nuronu moved in on him 19

: whon he told me about it.

¡ow, if they didn't do a china rinue it iron "no to '!.

.. I don't know about it, but 1 ansumad becaurn it suddenly

surfaced that this

was something rocant. This was my own

.. assumption, you see.

:.

Mr, Lawson. The difficulty with that 1a, shough, you

put a lot of woight on the ability of Maheu to blackmail the

:: CIA.

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Mr. Shimon.

well, that's the way it was doacriles!

Mr. Dawson. Using a partielpation in the passayo of

tha poison.

Mr. Shimon, Hall, that's the way it's boon discussod by

Sam, at great length, and by Johnny, that ho got off the hook

by colling that phony atory. Ho said that as lato as ovon

a yoar agos ha's still talking about 1t, how ho got sway with

it, He got away with it again with the long committee. And

how that stupid law, and the way the buys handled it, broughe

all the hoat and it resulted in a whole your of contemit for

Sam because the Bureau ant on him. Johnny went to priaoi.

and both

of them trace all ui their trouble to the cine when

the I'll moved in on them as a result of that tap. so if ho

had kopt his nouth shut and hadn't used all that junk, they

would have never been involved. That's where I get my impressio:

because 1 -- I have no interest. Hell, the Bureau wasn't

bothering me.

Mr. Dawson. But you're quite convinced in your own mind.

in your discussions with Rosselli, Mahiu and Giancand, that

they had nut previously attempted or plottud to assassinate

Fidol Castro?

Mr. Shimon. No.

"r. Darison. No, you're not convincel?

Mr. Shimon.

Nu, 1 alwayn thought thal was the firse allomy:.

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coally, I -=

Mr. Dawson. It was an assumption you mado.

MI. Shimon. Yoah, bacause just to bring it up for the

first time, and I hadn't heard anything beforo that, and 1 sald,

: this was my first mocting with Sam. I had been with Johnny

= sovoral timos, and with bob constantly, and no conversation

"about it. So I figurod this must be somethiny now. llo had

othar things going. He had other things going on around thu

•country, he talkod about those quito frcoly, I don't know

why the llall he wouldn't have mentioned this to mo.

Mr. Dawson. But that is an assumption you have made rathor

than something he told you?

Mr. Shimon. That's right.

Mr. Rhea.

subsequent to that, did Johnny ever talk wish

you about his involvement with Bill Harvey?

Mr. Shimon.

No, Johnny was told by kill Harvey not to

talk to me about anything involved with this because I was

too close to Mahou.

Mr. Rhea. And kosselli did not talk to you about anytim:

Mr. Shimon. Woll, I told Johnny e lony

as he and Marry --

I said look, you don't toll me anythiny. If I happon to ai.

you sonothiny, say o.

Mr. 1rstal. Were you usually aware, however, if Johnny wi:

in lown to sur mill Harvey:

Mr. Shimon, Yosh, I always wicked him up at the airport.

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1 mado his resorvations, had dinnor with him, took him lo the

play.

Ile nover came in without my knowiny excupt that time

they had him hiddon and he was told to sury away.

Mr. loserl. Has the time they had him hidden after choi

had takon car of the prosocution with the lepartment of

JuBtico?

Mr. Shimon. I don't know that.

Mr. l'ostal, Could it havo been before:?

Mr. Shimon. Oh, no, no, no, bocount the fll was

ucationing lohnny and harrassing him, He he couldn't how.

wien in hiding.

Mr. Postal, This is when? This in lion de wat tid

card: of?

Ar. Shimon. Yeah: yeah.

Mr. Postil. And once it was taken sure of, he was !::

in hiding?

Mr. Shimon. Yeah.

isr. Postal, Why wis he put in hiding after the preder

was taken caru of?

Mr, Shimon. l have no idea.

Once Harvey rook over and Mahou was out, 1 had no knoilt.

no word, nothing about it.

Mr. lostal. After

Johnny come mut ot hiding e. wtor is:

the neil tame you saw him after that, do jou know?

Mr. Shimon. When he Gane out of haling.

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i .

of years, and tho next time I saw him was when the FAl was

rousting him, and 1 met him in New York and then came in her!

and then we went to work bocauro I had le do a lot of work 1.

Boston for him, diyging up all his family rocords and every-

thing. I had the deportation case and thon tho Friar's caso.

and then I saw him constantly, every werk, evory month.

Mr. lonal. So he was working for Harvey for a l lear:.

he was underground for a while?

Mr. Shimon.

Oh, yeah, a long time, a long elm.

Mr. Postal. Did you ever talk to botany later about who!

he had done with Harvey during the tam:

Si. Shimon. The next

lime 1 ean donny we had a0 moil:

problere with Johnny about to be doporer d sonony so losi

indicted, and 1 was running bick and torth to loston and

different places. That's our whole introrist was solely in

yetting johnny out of trouble. The thing - overs time we':

talk about it, I kept sayiny, Johnny, now look, how about

yoing to the ciA for some holy on this thing, and ho said.

well, all right, anything. And 1 conomber the spocatio tam

ho cano in and ho called tarvey iton the room at the Malis..

and went out to Harvey's house

and reported

do m

the next

that Harvey said, don'e worry, you'll sever do die. I'l!

qusrant0e 10n. 1 unlordont Harley really went out and trir..

do a jo: ir him.

Si. Dowrome jou wald you recall th specited time :

''.:'

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54

-

Do you rocall the dater

Mo. Shimon. I rocall the spocifle conversation when we

come In.

115. Dawson. Lot's try to get a date on that.

Mr. Shimon. The only way would be when ho was arrostod

as an alion, that would be a matter of rocure.

Mr. Dawson. This would have beon after the dote of his

arrogi as an alien?

Mr. Shimon. Yeah.

Mr. 1081a1. Somewhole around 1966, 11671

Mr. Shimon.

When did he yo to prison?

Mr. Post.l.

I don's know when he went in prison.

boliave hu -.

Mr. Shimon.

'65, '66, Bonowhere arount --

Mr. Dawson. This was bufore he went to urison?

Mr. Shimon.

Yeah, yeah, He went to prison for the friar'i

club.

Mr. Dawson.

The Friar's Club was, 1 think, in 19n8.

Mr. Shimon.

well, first this thing -- the case was

pending and we were

figheing it old the niege and then they

broke the Prior's Club on hin.

Mr. Dawson. So is could will have been 'ot. '67?

diss alonel --

AIr, shimon.

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1071 га

MI. Dawnon, Lot'a go off the sacores.

(Discuasion off the rocord.

Mr. Rhea, Have you, prior to cominy hero today, have your

talked with anyone asido from MI. Postal?

Mr. Shimon. Nobody.

Mr. Rhoa, You've talkad to nobody alnut the substanco of

thla.

i..

Mr. Shimon, Nobody, I havon't nuon talkou to my wifo

about 11. •I didn't want to upsot her. l've buon in a lot

of trouble in my life, she wouldn't even volunteer to art:.

Mr. Rhea. Have you talked to any minipaper roportors

about this?

Mr. shimon. d'i, no.

"ir. кhe..

lave you given any robort: le the newspapers

about any of the details

of what jen're ben talking to us di i.

.. Shimon, You mean since l tallne to hami

1т. наса.

During the last month.

Ir. shimon. You're talking about lady Max's story aln.:

Sam. The barado thing about.

som.

Mr. thea. ins.

'I, tihiron.

Yeah, thoy wanted to talk about san. Tiny

called me up.

Mr. Whens. iho is Max?

"r. shimon. Rudy Max in Potome Muratine or Parad

Ma,971 no, you knus, the l11l0 chime, tai little tinhlinht

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about sam, that's all.

Me. Rhoa.. What waro the circumatancos of that?

Mr. Shimon. It was in the huguat 24th odition.

H18 b083

is a follow -- he's a holl of a good friond of mine. Hi calleu

me and sald what he wants to know something about san. No

know ha's boon seeing you, and Jack Andermon fillod him in on

thia, So 1 gavo him a fow little bits about it. Now, what ene

giat of the wholr thing was, San was roally--no wantad to know

how bad Sam was.. The roal story was thoy wantad to know d! i

thought c'in had killed sam. And I said, how did you evan

cord

In think that that would be so. And he aald, becaunr someho::

asced colly to questdon about sam's death out coll galet ti

dadn'e have a thing to do with at, which ai a sally answer.

and that's what brought it ahout.

1e1l, it l can find the article, l'll mail it to jou.

Ir. Rhea, tell, i havo read the artile. I vas

list

CUrIOUY.

1s. Postal. i Hid you tall to anybody about the evoris ::."

transpired in tiami when you wore down there with abu n

cossalli and sari?

"r, Shimon.

un, lie iunt talked about son. They o.!:

wantud to know Sam, and San's backyround an: sam this.

"he Naturnute Comnittee went all over

It wich me, though.

Mr. Postal. All over

iss. Shimon. The follows who anterviewed no, dad 0'i

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57

the record we kickod it around. They wantod a background on

Mahou.

(1 briot rocess was takon. )

Mr. Portal. l'd like you, if you know a man by the namu

of 1. J. Hoolston-Smith.

Mr. Shimon. You mean up in How York Clty?

Mr. Postal.

Uh-huh.

Mr. Shimon. llo has an agoncy, Confidential investluations?

oh, yos, my daughtor worked thore.

Mr. Postal. Can you tall us about that operation?

Mr. Shimon. Woll, it all startod yrary ago. Haltor

Clancy was a now York dotectivo when 1 was a young dotoctiv..

They shed to loan me to other jurisdictions bocause I wa

supposed to be an expert in curtain fools, in

one year thut

loaned

no to the state of Florida. I wab a diami City Detectivo.

Deputy Sheriff o! Dade County and stato Investigator for the

race tracks.

walter Clancy was slso selected

and Jack

wisrren of Chicano.

ive wire the triu.

now, walter's time, has 2u years wire u;.

in the beparton::.

He wanted to unen an agency ani called In about assistance,

advico and whine to do, and we, tunether, drow un what ho put

cogether, an excellent agency, made soie muney wich it. He

hall a retired nicewonon.

Thy mot ood particity

and yon:

cases. In later yeara no koue on hiring alterent followe

Iron difforone muntring, And Waiter dropped dead, and a tellin

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58

=.

named Joo, one of hin employaos, bought the businoss out. And

I was up thore and I saw smith, I think, the nocond time.

smich la supposad to bo a foreign nunnt. He puta on a

1ot of phonay storior.

Now, my daughtor was working for an

art company, purchasing, She's quite an artist, and sho was

doing the purchasing, and these peoplo had nocurity on their

businors, and smith happenod to run into hor, and he mald la

your dad the inspector and she said yor, and from than on

nothina would do but ho'll have to go to work for thom. Mad

she was excited anouch to think that it mile be sood.

And then they

WOTO UID

= anil tin mhe went to work toi

thom, and they were unint her to net internation that l mat:

have about a lot of things, and they did roully try to worl

the lateryate on a lot of angles, and they pue out a lot of

bad stores on the iatoryate sa being suthantic.

He's wrong.

I just told my daughter, out, vet out of therr.

Mo. lostal. What storion nos le wrong about, to your

knowledye?

ir. shinon. lie was plantim scorin about ecord. They

planted = 0h, 1 forget, offhand a and thate has another

fellow chat used to do Hobby kennody's political torr up

in iow jork. He was feeding him sore poison,

1lorpet hiy

name. 1 anow l did a job for him in

detroit.

But to le inpposed to lon ao and 1 une this ir0:: another

source a tu'e susposed to be an tinaligh dent of sone kin!.

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l'e's on somebody'a payroll hocuse he's mut making the moncy

In the bunincos, and ho says ho has a rach wife. That's neither

hero nor thero. But ovaryhorty l talked to, my contacte in

the flold nay he's strictly poinon, what 1e your daughter

doina

thore, including nomo FBI quys that had to go in thorr

and nak a question about something. Thoy wald, whoa.

so I just told her to get out of there, and ahn did.

Mr, l'ostal. Thoy smolled a rat au soon as thoy dalkos

Into the place?

Mr. Shimon. I think they wore doine a background on him. :

don'e tnow. Anil whan they man my daughe e

chink that she should be there. but tard Gore Workin Dir.

1 could tell by the things that she doul! "ll me and ask tr.

ir. lontal. Things lise init?

Mr. Shimon. Not pertaining to government seut!. irais

he wanted people, lackgeounds on sonubodi, frcoblo stut:.

There was womethin

elee I was trying to think.

una o!

the partners skipped with all of the mno..

Ar. lostal. no you kaon chad Has ain was?

4r. lihimon.

There was inetter partner with lison, an

he gripped and signed a lot o: bad baner, and the vent out an:

smith couldn'e prosecute him. actualli, the quy raid do it:.

corner it.

do tradel. to your insinlie

connection to snich?

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Mr. Shimon. He'dian't when I knew him.

Mr. Portal. What about hollino?

Mr. shimon. I don't know about Ballino.

No, I know bol

wouldn't have any connection to smith bocauro a lot of thingy

Bob wanted from time to time in lew York I would have done throun

halter Clancy and Walter Clancy's succonnor, so ha novor got

a chanco to moot gaith, and I did most of lt on the phone.

And my daughter wan working thore, I might fly up and

catch her for lunch, you know.

Ms. lontal. Do you know a quy named Al lannick? Palm

springs?

Mr. Shimon. in, but tlin name 1o

tomalaar. 1 miht have

hoard 1t. 1999y lives there, Johnny arnio a lot o! tinn

there when he's on the west coast, ind hr knows a lot of unai!.

In lalm sarina, He mithe have mentinaaa lannier to me. The

name is so add i think it strikos a bull, that's all.

Mr, lostal. Tell me gonething, if Johnny and sam word

19119

to communicato, in

it noggible that thay

woult used

cutoui.

sunchos; ts on internediary then they deild tair

cast: scher?

Mo. Ghiron dobnny and san haven't soon or called to mai

other for con yeary.

115. Postal. ilow about back when?

r. intom. Met book, that would bee done Illedit on

tie prone, you know, whate thee hell

the orann1.d..on.

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Veyas, tho Strip. Hall, anybody could hava bean.

Mr. Postal. Did they aver uso women, to the bnat of your

knowlodge, to act as a talephono condult?

Mr. Shimon, I'11 lot you in on a little secret on those

boys. Thay don't trust women from here to hero.

MI.. PoRtal. Do thoy ever use thom?

Mr. Shimon. No, no.

Mr. Postal. What about sinatra?

Mr. Shimon. lla should ha hustliny pool. Thie is an

awful sad ahlt, jocz. I mean, thin in dirappointina to real

ntout him und then suddonly det in a roon th the bum on!

antith him and

listen to him, and then. lodi what he did

col deva, does, that's one weakend I matrol. l'm alad 1

missed that weekend.

sr. Poaral. Thia was --

4r. Shimon. You know, when he was --

Mr. Postal. Sar was there.

isr. shimon. What the holl, what brought to best on was wi

•: was doina, puttina on a show, shovine a attle up 9o.

yal'e aas with an audience, cone on, this a8 a bad ur. losers:.

liven san, and vet, it's a funny thing, he is

so anxious to

be identitied with big shots and mobstors, I think this come:

19 a loos of security, le 11iue to bu atontitied wieh some

guy.

1'11 got the mob ateor you. thes is what ho said to

the head of the racine cromision, you anow, when they were.

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gonn

6,2

quiny to take his licenso away, l'll que the mob after

yOu.

Whan we wont to dinner the ninht of nur trip to clan.

Sam and johnny and 1, you know, we arrived darly at Maxines.

30 in camo Frantle with all his yany, walkod up to sam. on,

I f1nally got you, You've got to hear this. so, anyway ho

walkod up and hollo, hollo, and suddenly sam, purposely, an!

changod his ring finger that niaht. Johnny wantod to woar

his sina, and no said, go ahoad, bocaur dohnny uas goini to

moot a 11rl later, some doctor's wito, in san naid, l'll out

on that siny that cioddamn sanatre gove ine.

worn it.

te to buts

1t on and dinatr.

11:11, so you tina:l? r1:

the tina.

He said, l've been chockina up on inu. so you

finally put :l on. Just lilie a little yirl, and I could:

help but, hes, are you two numer for each other?

Sam would drop dead. He got to laughing.

He walked gwar.!

said, he's that crazy livinca son of a bitch, ho gave me a

r1n4.

le saves everybody a rant, you know, he loves ter.

falla in love with them.

You inow, la grad, look out for tami.

He save. look out, don't open your mouth. this que s: !...'ii

Luciano up.

ri?.

Luck; sneaked bade into ruba, you kroi.

lucky was deported, sneaked back, was working out of duid.

sombour told hon, buckyo you inow, no wanted be edit

and meet Lacht. do tie arounht lucky duruent, a solid 1?.:

c190, to turk: muth love from franken or yenochand. the: 1i

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showed it to evorybally around New York and said I'm going to

mect Lucky, you know, the big mouth. So thn word went, you

know, they went right with him. He sort of walkod right in

Lucky's room and

yave him the carr and the cops walked right

into the room right after him and busted him.

So after that, you know, so Sam said look out for this

quy, but anytime ho got Into troublo ho alwaya would do figuncina

my friond sam, and lo had a lot of poople intimidatod that

thought that, you linow, sam was hin bir boy.

Mr. Portal. Hell, ion't lt a face that sinatra and tian

had business interente together?

"r. himon. Hell, not only tiam.

1 think everybody did:

nad any money invrated in the so-called crateeee all finaner:

Sanaura lo put him on hip leet. sure, thore's no question alm:

that because be was stone broke. suddenly he unt in the

recording

business and they bought his way back into the nova.:.

-15

you know. They bought him the parts. And in fact, you know.

that's why, for instance, why Johnny vent away, You tinow, ae

was working with the unions, with mield!!. Thoge uniong worr

runnin

the:

show. They were

tellim the movie

to do ani how to un it.

Is. loutal. The unione were.

"i. Shiron.

Yen't.

core: 01.

"I. togeal. Hero the nons running to: artont? worn ener

tarancina Charge un1004 or dare ele unions tirancing the not?

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MI. Shimon. The uniona had a lot of mob mombore, Johnny

was in one of the undone. lo was an onforcor.

You know, he

wont to prison. Bioloft wont to prison firat. They lot him

off, H10101s squaaled and the othur sovon wont to prlson. That

was it.

MI. Postal. What about Sam. Did he havo any tias to

ilofta?

Mr. Shimon. No, no. I would have known that bacauso,

before lofta wont to prioon 1 now a lot of Jimmy, In fact, 1

did some work for Jimmy's lawyers. In fact, I did somo stu!:

for Jany.

Mr. l'ostal. What mhout Moo Dalltz? In you know him?

Mr. Shimon. Moe, I met Moe, yeah.

Mr. l'ostal. He mos a friend of san'n, wasn'e he?

Mr, Shimon. Yeah, formerly a friend or sam's.

Mr, lostal. They had a breat.?

Mr. Shinon. Sam broke with all of them.

sam brokn 'wtt.';

all of them. When

sam cut out for Mexico, no cut out all oi

the thanus.

ice, thore wan a great deal of --

(Discussion off the rrcord.)

Mr. shimon. I had a long talk with tian. You know, in:

hail soms problong with his estato. You know, he had a bir

estate, you know, an! te had all kanis of problems with thri

enploger. and do gair 100b, why don't end come on doun an.

spend a lon works, holl me straigheen up, givo mu some sechi::.

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things, you know. I'vo got to got this thing organized down

there, It ian't had but it'a gottina out of hand. And i sali.

woll, why don't you give it up and go back to Chicago, and he

said, I'm all through with all of that, son. This has boon over

a yoar ago, He said, I don't ovan want to soo Chicago again. int

the only roason he wont back to Chicayo is thay kidnapped him

and brought him back, took him out of his ind, put him on a

palt of pants, took him across the horuns and hit him with a

subponna, bacause he called me and told an about it.

Mr. Postal. Wull, what about the old days? bobby

Kennody cumo in, two prople he wont aftre era san and Jimmy

ME. Shimon, Well, he went after car trauro

sam was

supposed to be thr solfather of the whule deal, and sinstra

was identifiod so closely with sam at or time.

Mr. rostal. Hell, why would he an after san i? Sinatra

was close co him?

1r, Shimon. When you got to can you see to sinnerd, you

get tie whole bunch.

Mo. loatal, Hell did Hothy want to te

to sinatra?

"ir.

shimon. Hell, let's go olf the record.

(incussion off the record.)

yr, lonel. I thin we should put this on the rocord.

Me, inimon. lenty connedy's girder. tou knod, 19 marria

no leer innsor. the 19 a manger. the 19 allered to glues

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around a lot of guys. Poter, of courso, la idontifiod an a

double-gaited guy, no 1t didn't mako any diffaranco anyway.

Thay 'un separated now.

Franklo cultivated her and was Bloopiny around with inr.

had a parfact in, and during thr campaian, lf you remombor, tor

Kannedy campaign, he was -- horn was Sinatra working in all

diractions, working for the Konnadys. Tha tuloa was onco konno.!:

won, Siantra was going to bo able to trio caro of all of the

boys. And this was his full control, sloupine with the daunners.

aluepina with his sistor, ntay in thero.

And the lennedys accuptod Frankie, They had him un thes

with him and they were inviting han to too white Houre. mir

oh but, what a great follow. But the fall hord a lot rif inone:

tappier.

legas, Chicago, and pretty soon they re heart

convergations between Frankie and san about, hey, when are :...

goina in net something donn lor the boys, you know. And thr:.

they're talking about the

sister, and in not nice

terms. jo:

know, i''e yot to sloon with this goddamn bitch until l a

sorrethin': 4011.

these capon were played back to lobby and bobby wone.

wow, and overnight you saw sinatra out. you reminder, an

no more white douse, nothing.

Ir. lostal. Well that wag late, chat was tale darch in:

",?.

ur. shimon. toni, bue he didn's not to see

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until thon, Hobby was Attornoy concral whon he finally got to

hoariny somo of thago tapes and aooing transcripts. lovover.

ho did got the Informacion, and all of a nuddon he shut sinatr.

off.

MI. P'ostal. Hell --

Mr. Shimon. Holl, they found out that san, woll, not

Sam alono -- sam at that timo was the toy man. Thay wore 1o1n'i

to run tho big show and havo full control with the blesainy

of tha Attornoy conoral, That's that they were shooting for.

Mr. l'ostal. Thia was sam in Chicago.

Mr. Shimon. Sam, Mou, and averybody involved. And all

of the fellows that had an intorest in the west.

Mo, Postal. In you think doffa way into this?

Mr. Shimon. toffa wasn't into that.

lot fa wasn't into

that circle. Hoffa got in into the other circle that not

into the Caesar's l'alace, Now, that's nother crowd entirely.

tow, those, what the hell are the names of the people

that are the suspects

in the lloffa case?

I did a job for

them, Giacalonis.

The Giacalonis lad no, nothing to do with

Sar.

Mr. Postal, Holl, almost as soon 19 Hobby sane in, ea

rucorda indicate that bobby kennedy went after sain.

Mr. Shimon. That is as soon as he tound sut what wis

guanis on Dier lin telephone wires.

tr.

lodeal. lio. on other words, le must have been alün

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17

immodiately upon hocoming Attorney rioneral..

Me. Shiion. somebody had en Inform ilm that ho was bains -.

that hey wore usind his fandly and his sistor in order -- anu

Sinatra mao carryina, you linow, he las joing to run the whole

show because he's got the sister in the bar.

MI. Postal. Well, why would thay hold on to sinatra once

thay found out shout the stuff that thoy wore saying on the

tolephone?

Mr. shimon.

sinatra had

all the monoy in sla nano.

Mr. Postal. Well, I underatand chat..

but they cortainly

had enough money that they could have airportod the siator.

why would Hobby kennedy roon his hands off sinatra?

"r. shimon. de can't net anythin: nut of him. Who's

ever talked on dinatra?

Mr. Postal. They

still had him an a triund.

4r. shiron. They did not.

They shut him

off and didn't

even let him in the White House

anymore:.

Mr. l'ostal. But that was later.

"r. shimon.

Yeat, but they had told it gradually.

Mr. Postel. could 1t have been sonithin else that

prevented thon bron shutting tanaera oft until liter?

Mr. shimon.

1e could have been, but the yeon! ! 1.t

1n 990 tad l'll telling it

le jod. That 19 the way l yot

and t118 was a- again thostory woe thee sinatre and his

b1y mouth.

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Mr. Postal. Okay, Ha havo Sinatra with a bly muth. or:

we've you him on the phone capa or the huge, and he's sayin

chania about lobby donnadya sister, ani you know, maybe lost:

comes

1n, and to already knows about sam abviously, San's a

Diy us. H0hby'9 901ng to go after the rukots.

Mr. Shimon. And ic's aupposed to cool hobby out.

1T. Postal. Sinatra?

i1r. shimon. Yoal.

Mr. loneal. An: no bobby hoars that on

the colonhon

that lanatra do calling to the mob! sayine l'm noint 1.

tire sir;'s,

1'm

miscuri l've y0e thin family.

i, while we iner at the Fontainhlee, Girdtra's time::

up, tou baow, his ander of appeararreo, and he calls down .:

soys hete when are

we going

to get totines, to sam, and

sam says, well, we're kind of busy, in: to says, you knor.

l'm 14ue 19 the white

louse tomorro: turning and i tane to.

And sam

says, well.

it's morrible teeduse wo

tr can auld, me, to hell with tir thile lotte, I can !:

there mytime.

I'll weld for you. that's now sure tri di

•! 111191!:.

!. damon to, too, front sate tile.

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Mr. Postal. All right, now, thie lu now in March 1061.

Mr. Shimon. Yos.

Mr. Postal. Oray.

MI, Shimon. He was supposad to ho there that mornin'. s:

he automatically says okay, ho'll cancel it and ho can yo there:

anytimo, ho'll walt to sno sam.

45. Postal: DkAy, 50 oither lohly Kannody olthor hann':

hau the logg or read the loge you or thoro lo another roason.

Mr. Shimon.

At that time he still in walcomo in the whit.

ilouse.

Mr, lontal. Right, And if Qui Intermition ly correct.

He can deleone an the white blouse bor mother ceo?.

'I, shamon. Yon.

I lostal. About that tie the tollown: woor wee it:

they made the break.

Sr. Shimon. it was tras than

1yrar. They were alr

cooian; him out. They din't wirt a Budden Great, You tre.

the borert t:..

' loutal. la that right?

'r. total. Hell, really.

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## Page 75

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71

Konnedy and lloovor.

Mr. PoRtal. From tho start?

MI. Shimon. From the beginning, Hobby did not 11k.

Hoover and didn't want him in thero, lony beforo he ovon tun.

offico, and they woro that far apart, and I can soe whero

Hoover had a holl of a lot of atuff and didn't givo lt to him.

If ho had given it to him from the beginning -- 1 think ho

Just lot it build up, build up, and finally walkor in an

throw It at him

to embarrass him.

apd i.

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MARDIBSIT

shimon

9/22/25

tape

72

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7

8

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That's the kind of guy lloover was, you know. You'vo

got to look in and mako a littla atudy of tho rivalry,

"she Montilley bacunon loover and lannady vas --

ist, Portal. Hall, I vano to davniop inla a llatio ble.

j seror all, 1e na talk in people ne Justica, na pot one dide.

Ase ne ialt to propio de the Bureau, na you tho other aide.

Mr, Shimon. Moll, thie la the problem and you don'

1ge: 15 un:1l you tall to peoplo alser thei leare the nureri.

That'a the troulle, You'ra talkin7 to a qu; al CIA. coan yi'°

willtall toy01 alout thocla. comuys dill rotoli.o

11

call, cist'e What lou det. MUt Tieni Chis, I Hans: 1e

li hate Moover, really hatad llonver.

1:

1.

cana Frolla?

anili anllaltri? 1*.

m.. D.C.

w, Mat Tal Mail Dren talkleg Ment Mi!!: ani costin, ar

*: ;

21.

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## Page 77

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73

1

bootstran Bolshy?

2

Mr, shinon. & think lonver would haun done anything ir

anbarrana die cll bacaura thora was a bondlilty thers too.

nover would into noval, de would have mored heavor. and carth

5: 10 embarraRe CIA 1f Konnedy would pormit it.

6

'Ir. Poutal, Ihich would he Inther got, CIA or Kanrely?

7

'Ir. Shitmon. Mall, you ann, he coulas'" publicly to

nue negar cal unland leanedy agreed to le. You linow that.

•Atter all, 4anna9e 1n9 dolll h009. be he was canght herwon-

1:

1:

1:

?:

•ll weed a Glad Meet Meets God" the Alle Grosider"

L.

A LM

*r.

:..e

: :

..:

tr...

.. 1.

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go near sinatra.

"r. Postal, lall, 1f he place the tino when alrtra

was cut due ne the liennerly ihito loude do March of 1967, ar.l

¡annedy cano 1r., of course, tanuary, 1961, so 1e'e Mient a

jens and thinn or four monthe, and 11 wa say, for exampla,

that Sinatra was still in with the White loung up until Bay

tha surmor of 161--

"is, shimon. la muns have been lecause he wan doing thn

intee Howen in March of '6l.

'Ir. lontal, Day, an for months areer that to want

1t1l1 tight, we'll say.

• they dege maiden dle dog, Mable the dans, murtine Oratin

¡: ore ball no a blu stori.

isr, mortal, This la the lureau?

ir. shinor.

sure, "ny her a- thoy had that place

"aged ille a spider wass.

'Ir, nonenl. To your linowledue ili: the thrals over

t::

198111016?.

"r.

Pontal. t0 1: 1t concoluatle thre "eater Hould !...

:.:

:: *

"r, "stal, I'm not saying loover personally.

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Mr. shlmon. I think ha would hava.

?.

Pir. Pontal. Old you over hear about any Ineidonta?

Yr. Shimon, lin, hut Inenrencon, rumors, "nu know, 11%..

4

overy lla quy you hear a lot ne storian, an: that the hall.

1ª you'ro nos interestad in than, you don': care, You know,

6

In avary walk of l1te and everything you can ait around ard

7

¡hear a lot of thinan, on you krow, and you havo to rotair.

• ¡noma De than, Parras noma of than, Justley none of than, ar!

Huesey why shes are bains mall, you know, the older you

art, the more you hnar, the more you diacre, mrleular!:

2: l'aboulde peorle, prondent people, and dond that do tar.

:: letter are goodle that in make d led ee told, thort':

1. o.69td0 Go tea.;- te9'jee 1".

1:

"r. chinos. "e coulled gary vel! ' it while raci

P.9. 1::!9

"an, that til did range rin.

:.:

'.t.

•*;.

11!

r...i.pe.:1

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## Page 80

1500т1396

-AND A PAUL

HIt

ripping iranti fin

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76

i play with because whon he pulled the string on you, lt mas

tight. Bobby would throaton you, Jack wouldn't threaton you.

Jack hould do it to you, theru's tha difforence.

You клон, I came originally out of Massachusotto, all

my frlands, my brother-in-law, you know, thay know thoso

6

7

: peopla like tho chief of police in Hyanniaport, renomber Jack --

I what's his namo -- tha atato policoman was tha old man's

*: bodyguard, I used to go to ilyannisport and spond all the

woekends and hear all the gossip about what's going on in tho

1' Konnody houschold. I could have told you ovory morning what

want on the night baforo.

This is how I got to know tha difluront charactors as

.. you talk about them. Jack was a strony, deup, silent guy,

1: really moreso than people realizo, Bobby, aure Bobby would

:: holler, scream, throaton you, kick you, anything, You know,

Jack wouldn't do that. lla'd just pull that string and you're

'through. And Teddy, of courso, I don't knoi.. I don't go

up thero anymore. I don't hoar anymore. I don'e go to

:' Swampscot, I don't go to Ilyannisport.

I guess I could.

Mr. Postal. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Postal.

I would like to thank you for coming down.

sir. Shimon. Wull, I know your job. I've workod

on a

1ot of jobs ay an Invostigator, and when you to gou a job lo

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1:

do you've got. to tall: to paople, and I know how 11f81cu1e 1ª

1s. I naver want to make 1t hard for a guy to accomplis!

chas ho has to do.

I just vant you to underatiand that. I alwaya bellers

In helalna tho other guy do his job bocrune a lot of poopla

can do it to ma.

"Is. Postal, Well, you ve leon very coopornalun and

Ne saAll! appreciato 1t.

"roshimon, Well, the only thing a l'm sorry, it's

no den can'a dead, that'e all. That Mlaken Me 1a. San tire

1049179 t04911 ne, but thei goodle fore lie could tall

тi:.

1?

1÷

1: 1 11a.

1c.

1 linna you told ne that 5an called cou dirrely brore he

L.

1.

conversation siltie 19ugh

1l1l1!, 1011, 1 root, To lain! three: Hornin

2: li and be lini!, aro you going to bo avallablo of aro you goiny ir

i:

bo tiod up? Can you gat lousu at any timo?

i...

a cau thou, or you are loose a core tiere, lou liaris, is

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## Page 82

MARO a PAUR

1108 421 900M, S8. 19099940- DC.20001

HH

7

CrAS

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1

2

hava more ways of gatting around than 1 lava, and you frow

I hava plants of space. I can alway inhe care of ins 1n

cha country.

Mal ho anya, I know. inhat's the rimler thiere un 1a !!-

country? Give 1t to me again. He anirl, neny loose, we'll

got togeshor. I have nomething to talk in you airsi!.

Mr. Postal, niel he nound urgen?

MI, shimon. Mo, vory -- you know,

•hat'a going on, what do you haar Ceon Inhnny? son, "e

10

1: 17998, what a lampended to bangs can, a.. bone ice ..

1:1T

1l alertales, lee una dead. due to be were seant de wade cal

1:: 19091re 10har; 11ll sal: ts ini, ime for yoars ho wouldn't

talk to anjbody. Tha raco is over.

1.

're tantal. Okay. Thank you.

.? ...

i...

!.p!m.0.tt109td 2t66r 199 1090!!!!!.1

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