Agency: SSCIA
Originator: SSCIA
Document date: 5/9/75
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

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JFK Assassination System

• Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

7/7/2015

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER :

RECORD SERIES :

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

SSCIA

157-10014-10110

MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE

07-M-16

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE :

SSCIA

Released under the John

F. Kennedy

Assassination Records

Collection Act of 1992

i44 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 54653 Date:

DATE: 05/09/1975

PAGES:

62.

SUBJECTS :

ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE

SSCSGO

KING, MARTIN LUTHER, JR.

FBI

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Declassified

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DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 03/21/2000

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Date :

Page:

08/06/95

1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY :

SSCIA

RECORD

NUMBER

157-10014-10110

RECORDS

SERIES

MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE

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: 07-M-16

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR :

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FROM

TO

TITLE :

DATE

PAGES

SUBJECTS

05/09/75

62

:

SSCSGO

KING, MARTIN LUTHER, JR.

ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE

FBI

DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT

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+8101

LE CONTAINS SPECIALLY DESIGNATED INTELLIGENCE MATERIAL

MAY

(COMPARTMENTED)

aphrased, or discussed with another person without specific

aphrased, or

in this file is to be read only.

you have

a question!

i mean and there

ive you access

to

this file.

or a requirement speak to the Control

—TOR I-

ISSUED BY T

SECURED BY

• TIME

TERSON HAVING ACCESST FROM

1230

Chines:

10: 30

10:35

4: 45A

10:00

і фів

and

101

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A Safe Chia

NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATIONZ

Unauthorized Disclosure Subject*

Vol.

TOP SECRE @ Muird Statre Bruate

RIO/

Report of Proceedings

INVENTORIED:

MAR 15 1917

Hearing held before

Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental

Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities

Friday, May 9, 1975

Washington, D. C

(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over

to the Coumittee for destruction)

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THOMAS: :ms1

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COMMITTEE BUSINESS

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Friday,

May

9, 4975

United States Senate,

Select Committee to Study Governmental

Operations with Respect to

Intelligence Activities,

Washington, D. C.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice at 10:35 o'clock

p.m., in Room 457, the Russell Office Building, Senator Frank

Church (Chairnan) presiding.

Present:

Senators Church (presiding), Huddleston, Morgan,

Ilart of Colorado, Tower, Goldwater and Schweiker.

Also present: William Miller, Staff Director,

F.A.g.

Schwarz, III, Chief Counsel; Curtis R. Snothers, Minority

Counsel; Charles Kirhow, Charles

Lombard, and Patric': Shea,

Professional staff Members.

Chairnan Church. Ver well, the Committee will come to

order.

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Chairman Church. The first item on the agenda today

relates to the question of subpoenas.

First of all, I would like to call the Committee's

attention to Rule 5 dealing with subpoenas.

"As much as for attendance of witnesses or

the production

of memoranda and documents, records or any other material may

be issued

by the Chairman of any other member designated by

him after consulation with the vice Chairman. It may be served!

by any person designated by the Chairman or member."

At the first meeting of this Committee nur records shoir.

that we did discuss the suupoena question and I indicated then

that any time that it became necessary to consider the use of

subpoenas I vould indicate generally to the Committee the Field

of inquiry for which the subpoenas might be requirea

before

issuing them, though the Rule jives me the authority to do so

after consultation with the Ranging Member. No! we have

reached that point where it may be necessary for subpoenas to

be issued in connection with the following investigations that

are now underva?.

First off the Huston Plan

where we will comrence taking

depositions raquiring testimony under oath, detailed question-

ing in this connection. I believe the plan is to start with

Huston hinself and others.

It is very likely in order to get

a full disclosure from these witnesses, some of whom may be

hostile, subpoenas may be required.

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Senator Tower. Do you plan first to ask them to come to

testify under oath, then if they refuse only then subpoena

them?

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Chairman Church. That is correct.

Senator Tower. I think that is the best way.

Chairman Church. I do, too. We will not use subpoenas

unless it becomes necessary, but I wanted the Committee to know

that we are now at that point and if it becomes necessary I

will issue subpoenas in connection with the Huston Plan.

In connection with the Post Office mail opening, here

again we have a situation where some of the Post Office

• employees, I understand, may have violated criminal laws and

may be subject to possible prosecution. For that reason, in

order to get the facts

concerning this case, it may be neces-

sary to use subpoenas to bring them in and testify.

In the liartin Luther King case, we have a similar circum-

stance.

Would you care to --

Mr. Schwarz. Martin Luther Kind is an illustration of

where a man who we have already interviewed, from whom we now

need

sworn testiniony,

has indicated that he would like to have

a subpoena to bring him in. That is going to be another

typical situation, peple who are willing to come but would

prefer to have a subpoena.

Senator Goldwater. Let me ask a question of the Martin

Luther king incident.

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What does that involve?

Mr. Schwarz. It was the subject of a good deal of ques-

tioning of Mr. Katzenbach on Wednesday. It involves initially

a tap on his phone, then a hug, allegedly, in certain hotels

and residences in which he was staying. Then a bug at the

Atlantic City Democratic Convention in 1961, which may involve

problems of not only his conversations with people involved in

that convention but private conversations.

And finally, Senator, it involves the dissemination of the

material that was obtained, much of which dealt with his

personal life. And the allegation has been made that it was

shown to reporters and other people.

Those four areas.

Senator Goldwater. Could I say something off the record?

(Discussion off

the record.)

Senator Morgan. I say this for the record.

First of all, let me say I agree with Senator Goldwater

with regard to the use of any derogatory information. But

from the testimony of lir. katzenbach earlier this week, I

Frankly was disturbed at the former Attorney General of the

United States admitting that he heard reports that the tapes

were possessed by the Federal Fureau of Investigation and were

being made for members of the press, and that he macie an

inquiry as to whether or not they vere being made available

to the press but he did not pursue it to find out why the FBI

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had these tapes or for what purpose or whether they did have

them nor not. And so that we will not forget to pursue that

matter further. I wanted

to say this for the record: That

I think it should be pursued. Martin Luther king was a

controversial leader but there are a lot of controversial

leaders in this country, and unless they had some reason to

have these tapes, and I think that is the kind of thing that

this Committee ought to be concerned about, and I wanted to

pursue it with Mr. Katzenbach last week hut I thought maybe we

ought to go gently until we got all of the information ve

could

and then core back to the more difficult parts.

Senator Tower. Ily view is I don't care to listen to a

tape with derogatory information or material on Martin Luther

King, on his personal life or anything else. If it involved

some subversive activity or something like that it would be

a different story, but I think what we need

to establish is

whether or not this was illegally done and why and by whom, and!

all this sort of thing. That is what we want, not the tapes.

Chairman Church. I am in agreement with what Senator

Goldwater has said and what Senator Morgan has said. The idea

is to find the illegalities of the procedure.

All right.

With that in mind, then, I would like to

proceed if necessary with subpoenas to get at

the procedures

where use in any case which is a matter of our interest.

The next case for which subpoenas may be necessary comes

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by the intriguing name "Tommy Traveler." I would like our

Counsel, Fritz. Swarz, to tell us about that.

Mr.

Swarz. This is an issue really under the agent

provocateur question. Mr. Tommy Traveler, who has another

name I don't know, was a student at a college in the Midwest

who set up a lot of campus trouble in the late 1970's. Il then

deveoped that he was in fact an informer for the FBI.. This is

something which is not down there and came to our attention.

Chairman Church. Just added to my agenda, I am sorry.

Mr. Swarz. He was involved, allegedly involved in campus

activities.

It has since been determined that he was connected

with the FBI. There is a story of an initial denial, then an

ultimate adnission. Fe is somewhere in Pennsylvania now and

is a person we know will not tak to us withou a subpoena,

and the thought here would be, Senator Tower, this would be

a little bit of the footnote on the point you made that we

would have in hand a subpoena, go to him and ask him if he

would talk with us, if he says.no, as is the strong information,

then soneone would be able to give him a subpoana rather than

having to tale the money and take two trips to Pennsylvania

and find hin.

Senator Hart De Colorado. Mr. Chairman, is the suggestion

of the staif. that that is an isolated phenomena or that Tommy

the Traveler represents in effect a case study of a common

practice?

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Chairman Church.

We are endeavoring to find that out --

a starting place with Tommy the Traveler. I believe that

is

the approach.

Senator Hart of Colorado. If it appears on preliminary

investigations an isolated phenomena, is it the thought of the

staff we should pursue it anyway?

Senator Schweiker. Let me say I don't know it is an

isolated case.

We have a case in Philadelphia where the FBI

informant led the draft card raids and burned the draft cards.

Senator Ilart of Colorado. Are we pursuing this fellow

because he is an interesting fellow or represents a tendency

or practice?

Mr. Miller. A generalization.

Chairman Church. That is what we are trying to see, now

widespread this practice may be.

Senator Goldvates. We have a case out in Arizona where

a professor at Arizona State was dismissed and now he charges

that the FBI is responsible. I would like to get into that.

Senator Schweiker: I would like to have the Philadelphia

case in there too. I would like to know who led the raid.

Chairman Church. I wish the Senators would often speak

up this way so that the staff could move in the right direction.

I think these are cases that should be investigated to determine

how widespread this practice has become.

Senator Schweiker. It incidentally was Camden, across from

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the City of Philadelphia.

Chairman Church. Yes.

Senator Schweiker.

The same thing.

Chairman Church. The final item on this agenda today of

subpoenas has to do with an organization that was apparently

set up by the FBI under the guise of being a subversive

organization called "Red Flag". What its purposes were are

not entirely clear, though apparently it was like fly paper,

to attrack possible subersives. It would be an exercise or

possible exercise in entrapment. We don't know hut the staff

thinks it needs to be looked into more carefully. What is

known is that the person who was engaged, allegedly engaged oy

the FBI to set up this device, now has a post office box in

Texas.

The staff has tracked downthe post office bos but in

order to find out where the person hinself lives it is

necessary to serve a subpoena on the local post office and then

we can secure that information.

So this is just a technical method of proceeding to find

the person himself.

Senator Tower. Where is this in Texas?

Chairman Church.

Stafford, Texas.

MI. Schwarz. Our shot on this subpoena, perhaps we could

get through the back door from the post office, but we ought

to be very vigorous using proper procedures ourselves to avoid

doing the things that some other have done.

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Senator. lower. Let's don'e us do something illegal.

Chairman Church. That is right. And you must also be

mindful of that -- we always move within the proper procedures.

May I have a motion then. I don't need a motion really

under the rules, I have advised the Committee. If there is no

objection on the part of any member of the Committee we will

proceed to issue subpoenas where necessary in connection with

these investigations.

Senator Tower. luston was before the Armed Services

Committee last year in connection with the Huston Plan.

Chairman Church.. I think we should report to the

Committee that we did have a meeting with the Vice President

and it was a very plesant meeting and we were very skillfully

finessed. The Vice President said that he understood why we

would be interested in the raw material, the transcripts and

other information. He concurred that it would expedite our

procedures, he believed with us that the national interest would

be served if we could stay on schedule. He would relay our

request to the Commission, but thta

since the Cormission was a

creature. of the President the request would then have to be

relayed to the hite House. So we are back on square one.

Senator Goldwater. I think he will let us have them.

They are trying to get that report out by June llth.

Senator Tower. June 6th.

Senator Goldwater. I think some of the things he has

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should stay in his own until they are published, because I thin!

it is an area we don't want to get into.

Chairman Church. What the Commission does with its

information is up to the Cormission, but the raw data should

then be made available to us. It would greatly expedite our

own inquiry.

All right, the second item on the agenda is a proposed

resolution concerning information from the Internal Revenue

Service.

Now, this resolution has been suggested to the Committee

staff by the Internal Revenue Service. It is in order to

expedite their compliance with our requests.

There is a pro-

vision in the law, one of two provisions in the law, that

inhibit the Internal Revenue Service from furnishing some of

the information that we have requested, and they believe that

if this were waived for purposes of this inquiry, the Senate

inquiry, it would then be helpful

to them.

Senator Goldwater. What is the nature of the material?

Ir. Schwarz. We don't want tax returns, Senator. We are

going to be looking into certain allegations of wiretapping by

the Internal Revenue Service, break-ins by the Internal Revenue

Service.

I don't think in fact that that sort of stuff ought

to be covered by a statute that says tax-related material, but

it may be, and they have suggested that it would expedite

their

giving us the material if we get

resolution like this. It is

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the same resolution in substance that the Watergate Committee

and I think the House Judiciary Committee in the past, I know

the Watergate Committee did, and it was suggested to us by the

Commission we don't want to return.

Senator Goldwater. In our resolution which created this

group, what if we wanted to get into the operation of the IRs

harassment not against certain individuals but constant harass-

ments. I know if you once get on the computer list you never

get off that list, and I would like to know why.

Senator Tower. What Alexander

suggested here is that he

is willing to give us the information but he wants to have his

skirts legally cleared hy a Senate

resolution.

Mr. Miller. Other Committee jurisdiction.

Senator Goldwater.

could you get into the matter.

me it

is like wiretapping a lot, where they put you on the

computer and I want to know why and

why it is that once a man

gets on that computer he never gets

off, even though he is

never found guilty of anything. It is harassment, harassment,

harassment.

Chairman Church. I think that

does come within our purvier.

What we are really concerned about

in connection with all of

this infornation is big brother Government developing in every

quarter?

Senator Schweiker. Abuse of authority.

Chairman Church. And utilization of all kinds of

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surveillance techniques developing and institutional practices

in this country.

Senator Goldwater. I am with you.

Chairman Church. 'All right. Now, I have two questions to

ask about this resolution.

First of all, Bill, does this resolution have to go to

another Committee in the Senate before it goes to the floor?

Mr. Miller. That would be the usual.

Senator Tower. Post Office and Civil Service?.

Mr. Miller. If you cleared it with the Chairman you could

go right to the floor with it.

Chairman Church. Is it- Finance or Post Office and Civii

Service?

Mr. Miller. Post

Office.

Senator Tower. This is IRS. This is Finance.

Chairman Church Internal Revenue Service is Finance.

Mr. Miller. I think you have to chech with both Chairmen.

But go directly to the floor.

Senator lower. What you could do is, I guess we don't

have a jurisdiction to report it out of our Committee. I think

you would have to introduce it, Frank; what you could do

is have

it called up for immediate consideration and let some-

body object and have it go on the calendar.

Chair tan Church. Yes, I think we should clear that with

the two Cormitte Chairmer. first. They night prefer to handie

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it that way.

All right, we will work that out, but I would like to have

a motion by the Committee authorizing us, me, to proceed in

this matter.

Senator Tower. I so move.

Senator Huddleston.

I

second it.

Chairman Church. Very well, without objection that is

approver.

Item 3 on the agenda today is a discussion of the general

pattern of staff work and Committee involvement between now

and the conmencement of full hearings.

I would like to hear from our staff but we are now at the

point where the serious investigation begins. By that i nean

we are going to be taking.a lot of sworn testimony. We are

going to begin to take an increasing number of depositions.

Under the Rules of the Committee, when sworn testimony

is taken, depositions are taken, at least one Senator should

be present to administer the oath, and Im soliciting the

cooperation of the Committee members so that this work can move

smoothly along.

In every case, let it be understood in every

case, whever a request is nade, any member of the committee can

sit in on any one of these depositions, anyone that relates

to a suiject of particular interest to the member.

Furthernore, it would be preferable, whenever rossible,

to have

a Majority member and a Minority member present, if

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that can be arranged, but we will need a lot of involvenent now

by members

as we move into this serious aspect of the investi-

gation.

• Senator Goldwater. Could I make a request? I know it is

not entirely practical, but if we can have some idea of the

dates that you want us it would be a great help to us.

We

are planning on August off. I can he here whenever you need

me but I would like to know far enough in advance.

Senator Tower. I think we should set up a schedule and

say one of us will be responsible for being here that particulat

day, anybody else can he there that wants to be. Let everybody

know when his duty day is.

Chairman Church. Yes. Or we couldpublish the schedule

and ask the staff to secure a member.

Senator Goldwater. Can you set up a schedule?

Mr. Miller. Yes sir.

Chairman Church. Yes, for these depositions.

Senator Goldwater. That is all we want. We can take our

share.

That is no problem.

Chairman Church. But

it will be going everyday.

Senator Schweiker. Where will they be done?

Chairman Church. In different places.

some over in our

own staff --

Mr: Miller. Being an orphan Committee we may have as many

as four at the same tine.

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Chairman Church. I just think as a practical matter we

will probably find that we will end up oftentimes with just one

Senator present. He can't get the job done any other way.

All right. Now, what else do we have to say on this

subject?

Mr. Schwarz.

Just discuss it.

Chairman Church. Anything else?

Mr. Smothers. No; I think that will work find for us.

I

think it ought to he clear what we will try to do is fet as

much information in that particular hearing. By and large

the staff will do the questioning.

Chairman Church. I would like to bring up this time the

Washington Post article because if there are any doubts about

this story I would like to clear the air right now.

There was an article

in the Washington Post yesterday.

a good article except for one inaccuracy, a rather serious one,

and I would like the advice of the committee as to how we

should

handle it.

The part at issue reads as follows:

"One Adninistration official said, I hope I am not being

paranoid, but he said the Committee staff claimed later that

the apparent sclectivity was unintentional. The staffers

finally left after checking off the ones they wanted and

informed later the White House as chagrined to note they had

asked only for reports of operations that originated in either

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the Eisenhower or Mixon Administration."

This simply is not so and the staff has prepared a

memorandum which is in your folders which will show you the

pattern of the inquiry had paid no heed whatever to partisan-

ship in connection with this inquiry. And since we have tried

very hard to avoid this, it is a bit disturbing that that

issue is being raised at the White House when there is no

substance to it.

Mr. Miller. I can elaborate a little bit on that. I

understand that that story grew out of a Christian Science

Monitor breakfast at the White House, or a Rod Sperling break-

fast, which I think many Senators are familiar with. It was

held at the White House, and almost all of that information,

as.

far as we can determine, arose from that meeting.

But to elaborate a little bit more on this study question,

I have gone over that list, Mr. Bader has gone over the list

in great detail several times

in order to be sure that we were

not asking for anything that was not directly concerned with

the mandate, and to he certain that the studies or reports.or

case evaluations

affected

all Administrations without any bias

It is an interesting collection, this 40n documents, and we

have linited it to matters

that seemed of direct concern and

well within the authority of our mandate, and we have given

to the White House and to the CIA at their request the studies

in order of priority in order to assist them in the process

of

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looking them over where appropriate. Whatever initial friction

there may have been on that I think have been resolved. I

think the White House

is satisfied now and I know the CIA is

because they made those documents available on a basis that is

satisfactory to us.

Senator. Goldwater. Let me ask you, do you think that this

statement is a statement coming from the White House of is it

a statement coming from George Lardner?

Mr. Miller.. That I can't be certain of. That I can't be

sure of. The only thing in looking into the story, I do know

that there was a breakfast and I do know that those matters

were discussed in detail.

Mr. Schwarz. And we do know it was made to it first about

two

weeks ago and ve said it wasn't true. It was made by the

White llouse. He said it wasn't true. Mr. Kirbow just this

week said to the White House it was not true.

Senator Goldwater. The White House made the charge?

Mr. kirbow. Senator, one of the counsels to the President

showed me a copy of an internal memo where he was trying to make

that case in the memorandum. He went over it with me and

showed me paragraphs. I then looked at it in great detail

against our raquest and indicated to him at the time he could

not mala such a case with me and I had been very concerned

about this master at

the outset of our docurent request, as

the Staff Director knows, and had screened them personally

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to be sure that we were not pointing the gun, so to speak, at

any given segment of our Administrations. He indicated nothing

at all further as to what he intended to do with the memorandum

but it was the next day that this came out.

Senator Goldwater. Have you talked to Lardner and asked

him his source?

Senator Tower. He is not going to give his source.

Chairman Church. He won't give it.

Senator Goldwater. If we stick by our rules we

are going

to be sugject to this day after day.. If it is going to be a

White House source, we can stop that. If it is going to be a

newspaper, I think we may be able to do something about that.

Chairman Church. Let me say this about George Lardner.

Ile has intervieved me several times and hased upon the stories

he has written they have always been accurate, and 50 I have

no personal reasons to suspect that --.

Senator Goldvater. Do you mind if I look into this?

Chairnan Church. Not at all.

Senator Tower. Let me suggest this. Let's go back to

the white House and say you know this isn't true, why don't you

clarify it, and then if they don't, we do.

Senator Schweiker. I think that is a good idea.

Chairman Church. I think it

is, too.

Senator Ilart of Colorado. I think that the following

statement, if they do not clarify it, a statement from the

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ranking Minority menher would be inorder.

Senator Goldwater.

That is why I would lile to get this

thing cleared. We are going to be subjected to a lot of this.

Senator Tower. I am reasonably sure a member of the

White House staff said that to Lardner. I am not positive

because I know the newpaper would like to promote a big fight

between us and the White House. I think we ought to get the

White House.

Chairnan Church. le have been trying very hard not to

pick a fight and we are not going to pick a fight unless we

have to; but it may he that at the press conference following

this meating the question could come up. If it does come up,

I will say, and John Power has been with me at these press

conferences -- it would be helpful if he would say we have

looked at the record of the general

requests and there has been

no partisanship and no basis for such a charga. But it would

be helpful that if that subject doesn't come up if we could?

the White House to --

Senator Tower. As soon as this meeting is over I will set

on the phone.

Chairman Church. All right. All right, now, Bill iiller

has asked me to announce in order to accommodate Senators on

the Committee who need to be planning for vacation time,

that

we should set aside, I suggest this to the Committee, the last

two weeks in August for a vacation period.

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Senator Tower. Good.

Chairman Church. Then we can all plan on that and that

would take us over the Labor Day period. All right?

Is that satisfactory?

Senator Schweiker. Let me ask one other question, Mr.

Chairman. Do we now envision the holding of public hearings

for the first two weeks of August, because I think if we are

not in the public hearing stage we all have a little more

flexibility in terms of things.

Chairman Church. I would anticipate since we will be

getting into the public hearings in not later than July that

we probably will have some public hearings in the forepart

of lugust, and that we have tried to do here is compromise

the recess issue by setting

aside the last two weeks for that

purpose. I would anticipate there would be some public hear-

ings in the early part of August.

Senator Schweiker. I make this request, and I appreciate

what you are trying to do here. If we have an option as to

time, as time gets near, as to closed or open hearings, if

it doesn't impede the work of the Committee ve try to increase

this period of closed hearings, if it doesn't impede or hurt.

Chairman Church. He will do the hest we can with that

without making any connitment.

Now, Senator

Hart would like to raise a question concern-

ing his discussion he hai with the Attorney General. It wouid

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be appropriate at this time to do that, so you have the floor.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Well, I think at one of our

recent meetings, maybe the meeting before last, I suggested that

those of you who wished, should authorize the Chairman to request

of all intelligence agencies our own personal files.

It was met with mixed reaction. At the staff's suggestion

I pursued it independently, and not independently but personally

with the Asistant to the Attorney General earlier this week, and

essentially he said in my capacity as a member of the Committee

I would like to see my own FBI file.

Well, thereupon ensued a kind of long rambling

discussion

about the dangers of disclosing vital information and yet the

competing interests of a democratic society, and it was one of

these philosophical things and I kept trying to get him back

to the point that all I wanted to do was see my file -- on the

theory that one of our tasks is to find out how agencies of this

sort compose files on individuals. In my case I know they have

one because I used to work for the Department of Internal

Security area and had a security clearance. I suggested it was

a lot more appropri, te for me in this capacity to see my own

file than to see somebody else's, quite obviously.

Well the struggle was he wanted to convert this into a

request, a rather routine reques under the Freedom of Informatidn

Act, which would have had the following consequences:

One, it would have put me way down the list of literally

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hundreds if not thousands of requests under the Act.

Two, he stated quite frankly, as he did in his speech in

New York at the end of April, these requests, because they are

so numerous, are now automatically exceeding the time limit under

the legislation, which is the 20 days. If you are not satisfied

in 20 days you have the right of appeal to the Attorney General

at the courts.

I said I didn't want to get into that, all I wanted to do

was to see my file. He said, surely I didn't want to move myself

to the top of the list because I was a member of Congress?

Again I kept reiterating that wasn't the issue at all.

Essentially the way I left it

was I would send him a letter over

my signature, over the Chairman's formalizing the request in the

capacity as a member of this Committee and he wanted me to agree

with him that my presence there in his office was a request

under the Freedom of Information Act which would have begun to

run the time under the legislation under the Act, and I wouldn't

agree to that.

So thaa is essentially where that is. And the only reason

I bring it up is to let other Committee

members know what I am

doing and, two, it fits into the pattern of what we

have

experienced with other agencies of delay and resistance and so

on.

So that is where that thing stands, but I am going to yo

ahead and send the letter. We will send it out the first of

TO

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Senator Morgan. If you send the letter under the Freedom

of Information Act, have you set a precedent for the rest of

us?

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Senator Hart of Colorado. No. I am not going to do that.

I am going to do the opposite, on the advice of counsel, if it

is forthcoming. My inclination is to specifically state in it

that it is not a request under the Freedom of Information Act

but is a request to be considered as part of the continuing work

of this Committee, and so on and so forth. But again I don't

want to get cross-wise with my colleagues

here, and if any of

you think I am doing something I shouldn't I

would like to know

about it. I don't want to provide a barrier roadblock for the

work of the Committee.

Chairman Church. Any discussion?

Senator Morgan. What I would like to see done is maybe

Mr. Schwarz could go down either alone or with some Committee

members as would like to go and say here we are, do you have a

file and show it to us. The difficulty. is I don't trust them.

What is joing to be in the file when you give them all this

advanced notice?

Senator Hart of Colorado. They can delay you.: If that is

your worry, they can delay you while you sit there.

Senator Morgan. They can? I think someway or other we

have to decide who can run the show.

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Senator Tower. Meantime the secretary is back there pluck-

ing your file.

Senator Huddleston. The only suggestion I have would be

I don't know why Gary should be hanging out there by himself.

We should determine the proper course and I would like to see

mine, too. I would like to incorporate in a letter all of us

who would like to see them and indicate to him this is part of

our investigation.

Senator Hart of Colorado. I didn't want to drag others in

that didn't want to be involved. Some suggested they didn't

want to see their files.

One other thing

I think is worth noting here. He kept

referring back to the Act. Under the Act I have the authority

to remove any information with regard to potential criminal

investigation of you and expunge information coming from

informants, to use a very serious term, whose own right of

privacy would be violated by disclosing that information to you.

I didn't know that informants had a right of privacy, but that

is the Attorney General's opinion at this point. So what he

can do here, Bob, is go through there and every time your

neighbors, when they went back and did the security clearnce,

said I knew him when he was in the 7th grade and he seemed to

be

patriotic at that time, he can go through and cut that out

to

protect your neighbor's right of privacy, which means you are

going

to get a big piece of swiss cheese for a file -- on the

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ground that you have to protect the right of privacy of every

informant. And, by the way, that has been the implication, it

seems to me, for all the rest of what we are doing. If

that is

the opinion of that agency, whether it carries over to other

agencies as well, we are not going to see a thing, because all

files are based pretty much on informants, I guess, unless an

agent happens to observe you doing something you shouldn't, and

they feel they have the right to cut all that stuff out to

protect the right of privacy of informants.

Senator Huddleston. That phrase might be used in a poten-

tial criminal investigation, too.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Yes sir.

Chairman Church. The real

issue, as I perceive it, is

whether this Committee operating under its authority pursuant

to the resolution is entitled to examine such files beginning

with files that may be kept on members of the Committee itself.

outside of the purview of the Freedom of Information Act.

Those precedures under the Act do permit certain material being

expunged and the question is whether that Act is going to

control access by this Committee to such files. I suppose

without undertaking to request files on individual members who

do not iwsh them it would be entirely appropriate for me to

write such a letter to the Attorney General, including within

it specific requests covering those members who do wish to see

their own file. Then we place the issue on his desk.

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Senator Tower. I have no objection to that. I don't care

to see mine.

Senator Goldwater. When I first came here you could go

down and they would take a thumb print and within two minutes

you had your whole file in front of you. They have charad

things. That demonstrated how good they were. That file is

that thick now.

Senator Huddleston.. I may not even have one. It seems

to me you are right, we ought to first of all establish we have

that authority and right, and in satisfying that right we make

good by looking at our own files instead of looking at somebody

else's. That seems to me to be a very simple approach.

Senator Morgan. I think you ought to make it clear, Mr.

Chairman, you are not requesting under the Freedom of Information

Act and warn them that no matters of records should be expunged

or deleted from the record. I agree with "Dee". I think we

ought to take a look at some and it is

far better we look at

our own than look at some other person in the Congress.

Chairman Church. We must be careful in composing the

letter not to suggest that we are limiting our right for access

to other files simply because we are asking for the files of

members.

Senator Morgan. I think the Committee should be doing what

you or someone else suggested earlier, composing a list of about

500 peopla in and out of Government that we would just like

to carry down and say do you have files on these people?

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If so, make them available. And we can't check 10,000 people,

we can't say give us a list of these people. I could sit down.

in a few days and come up with people that I would suspect they

had files on.

Senator Goldwater.

Or should have.

Senator Huddleston.

I think the crux of the thing is why

they have them and how they got them.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Chairman, I think the real

legal loggerhead that we are headed for here is this issue of.

the so-called right of privacy of an informant. If he is

serious about that, that has devastating consequences for the

work of this Committee.

Mr. Schwarz. It is the same problem

as we are running

into in a number of areas, and the premise in every case is the

fact that the Committee gets a document means that it is going

to be on the street the next day. Now, the rules are very cleat

it is

not going to be, and once this Administration believes

this Committee's rules, then they don't have that excuse.

That

is really the issue.

Senator Hart of Colorado. I think he is going beyond that

He is saying, one, a Senator or set of Senators, even acting in

this capacity, has no right to see what an informant says about

them or anybody else. I think he is saying delivering it to

this Comnittee is violating that informant's right, not chat

it might get out on the street.

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Senator Goldwater. There are problems that have come

under the new Secret Act or Public Disclosure Act IRS is running

into. It was on my desk last night. He is evidently getting

ready to ask for changes in legislation so IRS will have a little

more leeway. I suggest you get a copy of that letter. Each

Senator got one.

Chairman Church. You see, there is

always a reverse twist

in the best intended efforts and it may be that with the passage

of the Freedom of Information Act, we have furnished the

Executive Departments with a legal basis for expunging informa-

tion and withholding information they may not have had before,

and thus the Freedom of Information Act becomes a

shield when

it was intended to be a sieve.

Senator Hart of Colorado. In which case we may have to

amend our own authorizing resolution to point out our authority

goes beyond that Act.

Chairman Church. Well, let's proceed then with such

letter and wee where it leads.

I think that it might be well in this case

if John Tower

joined with me in signing the letter.

senator Tower. I will join with you in signing it, but I

don't want my file.

Chairman Church. All right. And one other thing.

Will

you please advise all members of the Committee what we have

decided to do so that every member who does want his file may

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have an opporutnity to be included?

Mr. Schwarz. Yes sir, we will circulate the draft letter.

Chairman Church. Yes, I think that might be advisable.

All right, now I want to go down to Item Number 5 and

then reserve Item Number 4 for the last of this meeting.

Item 5 has to do with the statuse of outstanding document

requests and status of procedures.

First of all, do we have any further requests to approve

today for information?

Schwarz. None today.

Chairman Church. What is the status of our outstanding

requests?

Mr.. Schwarz. I think that can be very quick. The white

House itself has delivered the documents we have asked for with

two exceptions, but Bill and I have seen those. That doesn't

mean there are no white llouse problems but the White House

itself has delivered the documents.

The CIA is doing much better but they are blacking out

significant portions of documents and whole areas of other

documents, perhaps the most important of which relates to this

assassination topic which comes later on the agenda.

The FBI is being awfully slow and we are in negotiations

with them right now to try and speed that up. If we don't

succeed I think we may be coming back to the Committee next

week for some kind of request for action from the Conmittee.

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The interview procedure matter is meant to refer to the

so-called monitors which you were all informed about ten days

ago.

The Administration

initially suggested that they have the

right to have a monitor present at every interview we have of

a current or former Administration employee. We have told them

that we do not agree to that, that to have a monitor present

is inconsistent with an investigation, particularly in the areas

of the alleged abuses, and would impede the freedom with which

someone would talk, and would also have a very bad appearance.

It is the same kind of problem as occurred in John Dean being

present at all of the interviews taken in the first instance

in the Watergate inquiry. As a matter of appearances it is bad

and as a matter of substance it is bad. We have been very

adamant on it.

I think it would be helpful to have some views from the

Committee on that.

Chairman Church. You understand exactly what is involved

here?

Senator Morgan. I think it is inconceivable that we would

interview an employee or former employee with his former

supervisor sitting there watching everything. I would object

to that procedure.

Senator Tower. Obviously we can't do that.

Chairman Church. I don't think we can either.

Senator Schweiker. We would be the laughing stock of the

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Hill.

Chairman Church. Phil Hart has indicated a similar view,

though he couldn't be present this morning. I think that it

might assist in further negotiation on this question if the

Committee were to formally resolve --

Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I move that we not accept

the suggestion that a monitor be present with each witness.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Second.

Chairman Church. And we notify the agencies to this

effect?

Senator Hart of Colorado. Strongly.

Senator Goldwater. Where did this come from?

Mr. Schwarz. From everybody. CIA put it forward first.

They said they were acting for the whole community. And indeed

the White House mentioned it first.

Senator Schweiker. There is a story going

around the media

to the effect that there is some internal memorandum that the

White House has saying they don't have to give any of these

documents up and may well decide not to do it on the real big

ones.

I am wondering if that is gossip or is there any basis

for that and part of this monitor position that they are taking?

I am just raising it, it is scuttle butt. I have had media

ask me about it, do you know anything about that, that they have

an internal document coming up that pretty well says that they

feel on their rights they are going to refuse certain key

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documents.

ME. MIller.

We have not seen anything to that effect.

Senator Huddleston.

That is a typical tactic of the media

Let me point out, as I have tried to point out a few times, this

is an approach they like to make to get some kind of information.

If you had responded that you didn't know but we will get our

documents they had a story right there.

Senator Tower. They have already asked us questions --

have they indicated they are going to invoke Executive Privilege

on something, or when they do invoke Executive Privilege what

are you going to do about that kind of thing?

Senator Huddleston. A good investigative reporter will

use that kind of tactic, frankly.

Chairman Church. Let me say a word on that, and I have

said this each time the press has raised the querstion..

So far

no Executive agency has refused to turn over documents that we

requested. Until we lave

reached that point, unless we reach

that point, we are not at issue on that question. It is possi-

ble that certain

parts of certain documents that we are request-

ing will turn out to be very sensitive and some parts may not

be related to our inquiry.

John, I think you might mention to the Committee what you

mentioned to me today that relates to this question. I would

like to have the Committee's approval. If the Executive, if

the White House or one of these agencies feels that a part of

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a given document we have requested is of a highly sensitive

nature and does not relate to our investigation, they would

like to show that particular part to Senator Tower and me so

that we might determine whether or not it relates to the work

of this Committee, and if in our judgment it does not, we would

come to the Committee and say so, in which case that part could

be deleted from the document that is turned over. That is

my understanding.

Senator Tower. Yes.

Chairman Church. Of the question that was raised.

Senator Tower.. Yes sir.

Chairman Church. What that entails is

that someone on this

Committee in such a circumstance has to make a judgment, and

my view is that we would make that judgment on the basis of

whether or not the particular item of information relates

to

the inquiry and, therefore, comes within our purview and not

to be made available to the Committee or it does not. And If

we find it highly sensitive and outside the scope of our inves-

tigation, then we would tell you and you would have to accept

our judgment.

I don't know of any other way of handling that kind of a

case.

Senator Goldwater. I think it is very wise to do that.

Chairman Church. Any discussion? All right with you?

Senator Huddleston.

Yes.

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Senator Schweiker.

Yes.

Senator Tower. This is a procedure that has been followed

in other committees in regard to sensitive material. You and

Stu Symington have gone and read some stuff once?

Senator Goldwater. Yes; and we are reading some more.

It

is done on the Armed Services Committee quite often, where they

take one Republican and one Democrat and we will reach our own

conclusions, and usually the conclusion that the Committee will

accept.

Chairman Church.

I would like to proceed that weay with

the understanding that without revealing the details we would

explain in each case to the Committee why we concluded that it

was not within the scope of the investigation so that the

Committee would be satisfied.

Senator Schweiker. Do I further understand, I think I do,

that if the two of you would not be able to agree, that would

not apply.

If one of you dissented, if one read it one way and

another another way?

Chairman Church. We would bring it back.

Senator Tower. Bring it back to the Committee and let the

Committee decide.

Senator Hart of Colorado.

What would be your collective

inclination on matter in a gray area? Which way would you both

tend to resolve it, or am I getting too hair splitting?

Chairman Church. I think that is very hypothetical. I

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think until we see what it is we are in no position to make the

judgment.

Senator Tower. My only personal inclination would be if we

were in a gray area and weren't sure, we would go ahead and

bring it to the Committee. We would not agree to expunge it.

Chairman Church. That would be my disposition, too.

Senator Tower. It would have to be beyond really a

reasonable doubt. Again I can't go any further than Frank.

Senator Hart of Colorado. I understand.

Senator Schweiker. Under that procedure you would see it

all yourself, it wouldn't be somebody sanitizing something

that you look at?

Chairman Church. No; we would see it.

Senator Tower. See it unsanitized.

Chairman Church. We can't make a judgment on any other

basis.

All right, we have not formall acted on Senator Tower's

suggestion with respect to a rejection on the part of the

Committee to the monitoring that they have asked for, and so

without objection, the Committee agrees that that proposition

is rejected.

We will so inform the agencies. And Senator

Mondale gave me a proxy, so I would take it to be the unanimous

view of the Committee.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Mathias?

Chairman Church. Senator Mathias I am sure would concur.

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Senator Tower. I will exercise a proxy.

Chairman Church. And I intend to inform the press of that

action.

Nor, I would like to ask al. the members of the staff if

they would please excuse themselves.

Senator Tower. Do you want to take the nominations?

Senator Goldwater. I move they be accepted en bloc.

Chairman Church. All those in favor of the motion say aye,

(Chorus of ayes)

Those opposed?

(No response)

Chairman Church. Very well.

I will ask members of the staff please to leave except

our Counsel and Staff

Director.

First of all, let me say how much I appreciate the

reputation that this Committee is getting for conducting a

responsible and secure investigation. We have tried every way

SO

far and the cooperation of the Committee has been just

superlative.

The issue of assassination is

with us and I think the time

has come for us to discuss how we will proceed with it.

First, let me say that indications are that the

Rockefeller Commission has looked into this very seriously.

Also I assume, though I have not been told, the Vice

President came very close to telling us, I think at our

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conference with him -- I assume that the report of the

Rockefeller Commission will deal with this assassination

question, and it is important that we know all that we can know

beginning with the investigation that. I will propose.

First,

so that we can be adequately informed and in a timely way.

Second, so that we can then decide how this Committee

proposes to deal with the question and what public disclosures

we may feel to be necessary.

The first time I raised the question directly with Mr.

Colby was at the breakfast meeting preceeding our meeting with

the CIA out at their leadquarters in Langley. Senator Tower

was there and I 'raised the question prior to his coming, to

his arrival at the breakfast. I then asked Mr. Colby to repeat

to Senator Tower what he had told me, and this is what he said

to us.

He said that there had been CIA involvement in several

attempts against the life of Castro, that these attempts took

place between 1960 and 1965, that obviously the attempts

had failed, that Castro was aware of the attempts because at

least in one case an agent of the CIA was captured, interrogated

and Colby had no reason to believe that Castro was not fully

informed by now.

Senator Morgan. He said so on the Today Show.

Chairman Church. He said so on the Today Show.

The matter has surfaced in the press. As you know, there

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is increasing comment on it.. And there is little question but

what more details will come to light one way or the other in

the weeks ahead.

Colby said there was one other involvement. We did not

question him closely, we just asked him to tell us what he knew

about this question of political assassinations.

The other involvement had to do with Trujillo in the

Dominican Republic. The involvement here was a little different.

A group of insurgents, dissidents, whatever you might want to

call them, who were very much opposed to Trujillo, were

furnished weapons by the CIA. That group was the one that

assassinated Trujillo. It happened that the weapon that was

used in the actual assassination was not one that was furnished

by the CIA, though at least one, perhaps more of the weapons

that were furnished were in the car of the assassinators, and

Colby said that this was an involvement that would at least in

the eyes of the law, in his judgment, involve the CIA in a

conspiracy.

He said there had been no involvement in the case of

Lumumba and he did not volunteer any further information of

involvement. We did not question him about the Diem or any

other possibility.

I noticed that there was somehing in the press yesterday

about Malagasa, an article having to do with Tad Zulc.

So the question is before us and it has these further

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39

ramifications that I can see at the moment.

There is a growing and perhaps ill founded suspicion, but

nevertheless it is a persuasive one on the campuses, that the

CIA has not come clean or CIA might have in some way been

involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. I find

that utterly unvelievable but, nevertheless, you know that the

suspicion is widespread. And I find it unbelievable and because

I can't comprehend CIA would be involved in such a thing.

However, there are some unanswered questions concerning whether

the CIA made a clean breast of everything it disclosed to the

Warren Commission and whether the Warren Commission pursued the

matter sufficiently.

One of these questions relates to the fact that Oswald

did visit the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City prior to the

assassination, and there is some confusion as to how fully this

was disclosed to the warren Commission.

Senator Tower. The other side of this coin that there is

suggestion the CIA was involved in the assassination and there

is right wing suspicion, it was a Communist conspiracy.

Chairman Church. Yes sir, both suspicions.

I assume agin from the appearances and from all other

reports that I have read in the papers concerning the investi-

gation of the Rockefeller Commission that they are looking into

this alleged cunnection with reference to the Kenndy assassina-

tion.

They have even gone so far as to interrogate the doctors

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who were present and who did the medical examination of the

President's skull and

made reports that the Warren Commission

considered. So we have it on our hands.

Senator Goldwater. Can I give you my views on this?

I think we are getting into the field of danger I felt we would

get into.

I know there is pressure to reopen the Kenndy thing. I

can't believe that the Warren Commission didn't make an honest

report, but that is not what bothers me so much. If we get

into the assassination field we are looking at attempts on

Castro's life or others. I think this is a field of activity

that we should stay out of as far as the CIA is concerned or

any other body. It is a part of intelligence that we just have

learn to live with and don't like.

I could tell you, I can't divulge names, the chances are

we nver would have lost Purtugal had this big blow-up of the

intelligence community in our country not bubbled up in the

press media.. Whether this involved assassination I don't know

but I have real reason to believe Portugal would still be with

us had we not literally destroyed our ability to operate in

these foreign countries.

I can gell you that it is virtually impossible now for the

CIA OF DIA or any agency

to get eyeball contacts in any foreign

countries. We were never too good at it.: We were beginning to

grow. We were beginning to build a respectable intelligence

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community, but what has taken place so far has destroyed that,

and I would be very strongly opposed to our getting into any

of those type of operations, even including the Kennedy. I

think it is better those things remain closed. It is better,

too, that we not destroy a weapon, whether we like it or not.

It is used against us and will be used against us. It has been

used throughout history, not necessary assassinations, but

destruction of character, destruct-on of property. I don't

want to see us become the only country in the world that is

devoid of any ability to operate. I would steer clear of that

kind of clandestine type operation.

I really mean that.

If you want to get into the Kennedy thing that is another

thing. I personally would oppose that because I think this is

a closed book and should stay that way.

Chairman Church. I understand your feelings and I don't

relish the inquiry into this field but I believe that it is

unavoidable.

First of all, I will be very much surprised if the

Rockefeller Commission does not say in its report that these

assassination. attempts have been made. It will strongly condemn

them because certainly we can not license murder in time of

peace and will quite likely propose some changes in the law to

make it a punishable offense. I just surmise that. But I thin

all of that is at least probable and we then are in a position

where if we do not turn. our attention to this question and reach

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our own conclusion respecting it, this investigation will look

silly to the public.

When I say that I understand all of the reasons that lie

behind your misgivings.

Senator Goldwater. I am trying to get this within the

tenet of the resolution and I think we are safe when we say we

are not going to get into the external things. Internal that

applies to America is another horse. You can make these things

illegal but in the interest of our country I can assure you

they are going to go on.

We have this problem on the Armed Services Committee and I

am on that watchdog committee and frankly, we don't want to know

some of the things that go on. That is what I am afraid of

that we are doing. Once we get outside of the basic charge

of

this Committee, which is to look into the espionage and other

practices performed on our own citizens, then I think we can

well destroy what little we have left in the field of intelli-

gence and at the same time our enemies are stronger and stronger

in the field. That is my personal feeling.

I would make one suggestion that we not decide this day;

that we wait and see what the Rockefeller Commission does come

up with. If they come up with it I think we are stuck.

Chairman Church. My proposal is this: There is every

indication that the Rockfeller Commission has gone into this

questio? and they are going to say something about it.

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That brings me to the last exchange we had with Mr. Colby

which you should know, and if you can think of anything eise,

John, I haven't related, please relate it.

Colby said that he knew that this would have to come to

light in some way, that he was hopeful that when it did, the

Administration was hopeful when it did, it was done in a way

that did not personalize or particularize a particular incident

and that the findings could be made that such attempts had

taken place and that this had not happened in the recent past,

it was not going on now, it was policy that was contrary to it,

and then such recommendations as to the future that the Committee

might want to make.

So he anticipates that the disclosure will come in an

official way. He is concerned mainly about the manner of

disclosure.

That makes me think unquestionably he is aware of what

the Rockefeller Commission is planning to do and anticipates

this Cormittee will have to do something as well. If at the

time the Rockefeller Commission makes its report this Committee

doesn't know anything about the subject and we have to say we

don't know anything about the subject, it seems to me we are

putting ourselves in a very awkward position.

How we deal with the subject is a different question.

We

will have to decide that ourselves. But Colby from all

appearances is read to tell us all that he knows, and I think

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we should get from him his statement and then decide what other

evidence we need to fill out the picture and then, of course,

decide how we are going to deal with it. We can't make the

decision of how to deal with it until we know what it is we

are dealing with.

Senator Goldwater. I just want: to get myself on record.

I am not going to stand in your way.. This is something that

you and I probably have been exposed to more than most other

people in our lives, and you maybe get too close to it, yoou

live with these people, and you get damn healthy respect for

what you have to do and what we have to depend upon.

I am going to have to go. I wanted to express my opinion,

and I will call the editor of the paper and get this cleared up

I am not that close to him.

Senator Huddleston. On the case of Castro, was it our

agents who were actually

attempting to commit the act?

Chairman Church. We don't have the particulars but I judge

from what Colby said, yes, that there were many discussions but

there were in addition to discussions, attempts. He mentioned

some of the ridiculous proposals that were made including --

discussion of a submarine that was going to put an explosive

in a seashell and blow him up while he was swimming, and he

said that to illustrate some of the bizarre proposals

that were

made. But in addition to those proposals there were attempts,

at least several, he didn't specify the actual number.

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Senator Huddleston. Actual attempts?

Chairman Church. Yes. My own view is quite different

from Barry's though I appreciate the reasons for his concern.

I just don't think that the United States can sanction political

assassination in times of peace and that there is nothing that

can be accomplished by this that possibly benefits this country

as compared to the damage it has done to us all over the world.

and one of the reasons we are in our present difficulty in my

judgment in the world is because of the widespread belief that

this has been an instrument of American policy, that the CIA

has been the organ by which we have not only attempted to

intride in little countries in their own affairs, in every

possible way, by which we have

gong even to the point of

assassination of foreign leaders.

I think for the sake of the country it has got to be

stopped and this Committee has got to have a role in stopping

it.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Could I pursue "Dee's" ques-

tions?

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Did he go into enough detail to let us know whether these

people that we landed

down there were Cubans, were they

Americans, what was their relationship?

Chairman Church!

He did not go into that. We didn't have

time enough to go into that detail. But I was left with the

clear impression that they were agents -- by agents, usually the

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CIA means foreign nationals who are --

Senator Tower. Foreign nationals?

Chairman Church. Engaged by CIA to perform a given mission

and equipped, transported by the CIA for the accomplishment of

that mission.

Senator Schweiker. Along the same line, I wasn't in on

this conversation, but Colonel Fletcher Prouty has said very

specifically that he helped to train these two people and we

trained them and we landed them and tried to get them back out.

They didn't come back out. If he is stating the truth there is

no question we were fully involved in that with Castro.

Senator Hart of Colorado. I think you have stated one

of the strong

arguments against Barry's position, and that is

that this is probably a whole subject area that is outside our

control. Agents, former agents, friend of agents, are writing

books, they are writing articles, bits and pieces of information

coming out, and I agree with you that it undermines almost all

of what this Committee was assigned to do to neglect to look

into these things. It is outside of our control.

Chairman Church. Furthermore, it is weill within the scope

of our resolution because we are not confined by our resolution

in any way to look at the intelligence community only with

respect to the domestic activities.

Senator Tower. No.

Chairman Church. That is another point. The Rockefeller

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Commission was originally assigned a very restricted mission

to

look into the domestic. It decided to expand its mission to

investigate assassination questión abroad.

Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that we

explore this matter with colby, that the first thing we

should

do is ask him to come and give an overview of this thing for

us and proceed from that point?

Chairman Church. I would like to do that. If we can get

him to come at our Wednesday meeting, next Wednesday, and let

me amplify your suggestion in this respect. I

think this is. the

cmmmencement of the inquiry this Committee must make into the

whole field of covert activity. This is the most extreme case

of covert activity. But we must look into it all and I

would

propose the following inquiry into assassination which Colby

should commence. We should then proceed to a series of hearings

to get the details concerning present covert activity all around

the world, and I must say I have seen some of it through the

Foreign Relations Committee that is now required by law to get

some kind of briefing, synopsis of covert activity, and a lot

of it you just wonder why we are meddling in at such cost.to

the representation of the United States in such trivial matters,

and how it could possibly benefit us to institutionalize this

kind of operation all over the world.

Anyway that is another question. We have to find out what

we are doing, why we are doing it, and what has been done in the

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48

past in the field of covert operations. I think we have to

commence with the assassination question simply because it is

pressing and

Senator Schweiker. I certain support you, Mr. Chairman,

in this respect. I don't think we can duck, even if we wanted

to, for the reasons everybody said. Either it is in the

Rockefeller Report, in all agetn's books, and I think the place

to begin, as Senator Tower says, let's see what we can find

out and then determine what our responsibility is.

I just want to comment on the other aspect of the Kennedy

thing. I think we have a little responsibility here to maybe

rund down a few of the obvious contradictions because if we

don't do that I think once again we will be accused of white-

washing.

I am not for getting into a whole big problem that is

a secondary thing. I think there are discrepancies maybe we

should spend a little effort running down. I don't advocate at

all a big thing. I feel like the Chairman,

it is hard for me to

comprehend this. There are circumstances relating to former

CIA people and I think we have a responsibility to at least

look into to see if it is a dead end alley, and if it is, drop

it or face up to it.

Chairman Church. There are two aspects to the question of

assassination. One is the high level aspect relating to

political leaders abroad. The other is assassination as it may

have occurred or may, be occurring at a lower level relating to

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agents or employees that are engaged in covert operations.

We

must know about that.

As far as the Kennedy connection is concerned, my view,

for what it is worth, is like Senator Schweiker's, I think we

have to look very carefully at the question of whether of not

the agencies came clean with the Commission, and if there is

reason to believe that a full disclosure was not made, or if

there are contradictions that need further explanation, I don't

think it is the work of this Committee to undertake to determine

whether or not the Commission's work was accurate or well

founded, but I do think if we find this evidence we should

on the basis of these unanswered questions we think further

inquiry into the matter is called for.

That is about as far as I think we can go.

Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I would certainly think that

we should not try to reopen the whole matter.

I don't think

that the Senate intended that we should, although that was never

discussed, and had that been debated on the floor it might have

resulted in our getting our legislative history that would have

proscribed us in that area. I don't know. But the warren

Commission was a prestigious group of people and I think that

if we cast aspersions on them without being able to provide

anything ourselves, we might be damaging our own credibility

a little bit.

Chairman Church. I think we have to be very careful how

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we handle it.

Senator Tower. I think we should certainly not suggest to

the press we are going to look into that. That is going to

blow up a whole row of snakes.

Senator Schweiker. And I don't suggest that, I don't think.

Chairman Church. Let's keep any reference to the Kennedy

assassination very carefully to ourselves. The only point I see

is to determine whether or not the CIA of the FBI may have

withheld, or if there

are unanswered questions here that should

be answered, in which case we can say that, and that only

because you

are right, the Commission was no doubt completely

honest, completely conscientious in the work it did, and there

has never been sufficient evidence brought to light yet upon

which one could conclude that their determination was not

correct.

Senator Tower. And you have got various people pursuing

different aspects of it and I think any investigation of that

type is going to come up with some inconsistencies and some

dvidence that appears to be valid that conflict with each other.

That happens in criminal trials. But I think we should proceed

very cautiously along that line and not even hint to anybody

that we are going to reopen the Kennedy assassination.

Senator Morgan. Let me put my thoughts on the record.

I think it is important that we explore this business of

assassinations but I think it is extremely important that we

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take our time and consider thoughtfully and carefully how much

will disclose. • If I have any feeling for the public senti-

ment of this country at all, I think I am right when I say that

if we should disclose that the Government of the United States

made a concerted effort to assassinate Castro of any other ruler,

we will completely destroy the Central Intelligence Agency of

this country.

There is no question in my mind that the public will demand

it be disbanded or cleaned out.

Secondly, I think that foreign governments around the worid,

even those who are friendly to us, would demand that everyone

that even was suspicious at all of being with the CIA be

disbanded or be removed from their country.

It is inconceivable to me we would even think of

such a

thing in time of peace, and I can't help but believe that a.

public admission would destroy the intelligence system, and we

have got to waigh in our own minds whether it is something we

wish to hear here in the Committee room, take the necessary

corrective action and report that we have taken it, or whether

we are going to disclose. the things to the whole world.

Chairman Church. That is a question we must face, I

recognize that and I am not putting that question to us now.

Senator Tower. I fear the external reaction more than the

internal reaciton. A lot of people in my State would say on the

matter of the attempt. on Castro, why didn't they get the son of

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.a bitch.

Chairman Church. We have now heard from Texas. That is

the Texas view.

(Laughter)

Senator Morgan. Let me add, Mr. Chairman, for the staff's

benefit. Shortly after this Committee was established, through

a contact, a man and I cannot recall his name, contacted me

after he had learned that either ABC or one of the networks

or either the New York Times was going to print a story on

assassinations, his name might possibly be mentioned as a maker

of weapons, then became afraid himself, and I reluctantly agreed

to see him. He came to see me. He brought plans, drawings of

the assassination weapons that he prepared. He brought orders

from the Defense Intelligence Agency as to how they were to be

delivered in person, paid for in cash. At first I was dubious

of him and I thought he was just another nut. But the man was

frightened, extremely frightened.. He came a second time with

a lawyer as well as the intermediary, and I told him I would hold

this information and at the proper time would turn it over to

the staff.

He would by all means want to be subpoenaed, but if

YOU

will see me next week I will turn over all I have got to you.

But it is almost unvelievable the kind of weapons he manufacturéd

His difference was he not only manufactured them but he had to

teach the people how to use them. And he told me that the types

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were Special Forces types, gung ho Marines, as he described

them where killing was second nature to them and, of course,

he is afraid now that having shown these individuals how to use

these weapons that they may think very well that he is going to

talk.

He is not really interested in protection because he

says there is no protection that anybody can afford him. But

I will turn all this over to you next week.

Chairman Church.

Senator Hart.

Senator Hart of Colorado. I was wondering, at least until

the time of the Rockefeller Beport, whether it would be

feasible to pursue any proceedings along this line exclusively.

with the group here, that is to say, Committee members ard the

staff members here?

Chairman Church. Yes, that is my intention.

Senator Hart of Colorado.

All right.

Chairman Church. That is my intention, to hold it as

closely as possible, and, that is the way we will proceed.

Senator Tower. There may be some instances when they will

request we have no staff.

Senator Schweiker. When Mr. Colby comes will he be under

oath?

Chairman Church. Yes. The procedure I would want to

follow, once we begin what I would call the serious investiga-

tions, just. at the poin of doing that, that all witnesses who

come to testify before the Committee be sworn just as witnesses

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for whom depositions are taken must be sworn. The kind of

briefings we have had up to now have really been very prelimi-

nary, very informal, and not too helpful.

Serator Morgan. If I could add one other thought that I

meant to add earlier with regard to the disclosure of this.

As we have said earlier, it is one thing for a colonel so and

so to write about Marchetti to write it and others, but it is

another thing for an agency of Government to admit that it is

true. So I think that is something we have to weigh.

Chairman Church. I know, we do and, Bob; the way that the

Rockefeller Commission treats it will have a bearing on the way

we may have to treat with it.

I don't know what we are going to be up against if the

Commission makes its report in a way that discloses the fact

and then this Committee is asked to provide the details.

Senator Morgan. If it does that we won't have much choice!

Chairman Church. Well, all right, one other thing that I

would like to mention just for your comment.

A lot of refugees who have come into the country may have

been brought in by the CIA, selected out of Vietnam and brought

in. I don't know.

Senator Tower. I am certain.

Chairman Church. I would assume.

Senator Tower. Particularly those engaged in Operation

Phoenix.

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Chairman Church. And if they have been brought in, if the

Operation Phoenix is what it has been described to me, we may

have a bunch of political assassins in this country who have

been doing that kind of work in Vietnam now brought in under

the cloar, the protective

cloak uf the CIA on our hands.

It is a difference though between political assassination

and conducting military operations in time of war. .

I think we have got to, in the course of our investigation

of covert activity, find out all that we can about the Phoenix

operation, and I think we have to find out how many people

connected with it who are Vietnamese, who may have a very

different view of what a free government is all about, are now

lodged with us in this country. That must come within the

scope of our general inquiry into covert activity.

The other thing I would like to say is that I am very much

disturbed over the possibility that the adams apple article,

Sam Adams article, which some of you may have read. Those of

you who haven't should read it.

Senator Huddleston. Where is it?

Chairman Church. Harper's Magazine. It may be true.

If

it is true, if it is true it means that the CIA participated

in a cover up, counterfeiting intelligence estimates of enemy

strength in the field in order not to conflict with the

official policy, which is in my view the ultimate corruption of

the intelligence process. If that is the

case, we need to know

about it.

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Senator Hart of Colorado. I raised that at my breakfast

table, the Adams Artile, and officials sitting with me dismissed

it as Adams always being kind of the mouthy kind.

Mr. Schwarz. We examined him for four days. He is more

complicated than his article suggests. The numbers question is

awfully hard to make concrete. We have got to find if there is

any more direct evidence of manipulation than just playing with

statistics, which is really largely his article.

Senator Morgan. Along the same line, I think I have

mentioned this before, but I feel we need to develop some staff

system whereby each staff member will be continually brought

up to date or furnished articles, materials that may be sensitive

to some extent but yet could be permitted, that we could

keep in our safes and read. You know it is a little difficult

to come in here and sit down and digest everything, but also I

am getting embarrassed to have to go buy Penthouse and Playboy.

I believe there are more articles in those two.

Senator Tower. You have got a good excuse now.

Senator Morgan. That is what I have been saying. Really

I think maybe if we could have those articles --

Chairman Church. Let's try and handle this right now.

First of all, press articles dealing with the Committee

or dealing with revelations or charges, relating to the work of

the agencies we are investigating should be coming to members.

The staff is supposed to be collecting those everyday and

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circulating them to the offices of each member.

Is that happening?

Mr. Miller. That is happening.

Chairman Church. I haven't seen any in my office.

Senator Tower. I have gotten some.

Chairman Church. Once in awhile I have seen some.

Mr. Miller. I will check it.

(5152,i6)

Senator Tower. Maybe the staff is short

stopking you.

You have too much to read.

Chairman Church. Maybe so.

We should include in that any significant magazine article

that in the judgment of the staff warrants the attention

of

the Committee members.

Senator Huddleston. You might make sure desiqnating on the

cover that it go directly to the Senator, because I think

probably what is happening, some of our staff people are

getting that, they are delaying it a little bit. We ought to

indicate on the envelope, however it is delivered, it goes

directly to the Senator, not through the normal process.

Senator Morgan. If you let our staff member hand deliver

it to us.

•By the way, I get a little feeling from my staff member

that they are being left out. I don't know whether this is true

or not. I had understood the entire staff was to work as a

unit. That is the reason I throw that out. I got that from a

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couple of staff members I was talking to.

Anyway, one other thing, Frank. This may be an imposition

to the staff but I assume somebody on the staff is going to

read all of these articles, these magazine articles. In reading

them, if they would prepare say a two-page outline summary of

what is in them it would be helpful. I read all night and I

still don't keep up.

Mr. Miller. On the question of articles and so on, we

will add that. I am quite sure the newspaper things have been

going everyday but we now have a press man, Spencer Davis, who

has been assigned the task of reading everything and putting

together a digest of everything and flagging that as of critical

importance.

Senator Tower. Don't give us too much. I think just the

reall good stuff, what is pertinent, because we could get

inundated with this.

Mr. Miller. On the question of sensitive material, I

would think the most sensible way within security would be to

have Walter Ricks, in your case carry the material to you and

he be responsible for it. Our problem is we have to know for

our own protection, among other things, exactly where these

pieces of paper are at every moment.

We just can't take a

chance.

But why don't I be sure that everything gets to you

through Walter and he be responsible for it and accountable for

it?

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Senator Tower. It is a good idea to have two members of

your staff cleared, get high clearances on them. I have got

clearances

on three of mine. Nobody else in my office handles

classified documents except those people.

Senator Morgan. I had two thoughts on the sensitive

material. I noticed in the first place sensitive appears only

on the first page. It should appear on every page.

Mr. Schwarz. It was only the first page because of the

assassination issue being mentioned on the first page and the

other stuff we though in fact was not sensitive.

Senator Morgan. Can I assume unless the word sensitive

appears on any given page that that is not sensitive?

Mr. Miller.

Yes sir.

Senator Schweiker. What does the word "sensitive" mean?

Senator lower. That is a low order of classification.

Mr. Miller. It means it is classified.

Senator Schweiker.

¡It means classified?

Senator Tower. It is the lowest order of classification.

Mr. Miller.

We have two for our own Committee purposes.

We have two classifications. The first reason is practically

everything ve handle is classified. The two orders of classi-

fication are those which most or all of staff can see because

they have top secret clearance.. The second order are those

highly compartrented materials which have to be stored in a

separate secure area and only those who have a need to know will

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have access to it, in addition to the Senators.

Senator Schweiker. What do you call that?

Mr. Miller. We call it compartmented material.

Sensitive compartmented material.

Senator

Schweiker. The two are what?

Mr. Miller.

Sensitive and Compartmented.

Senator Hart of Colorado. One point on your first obser-

vation.

The Cuban counterparts of the Vietnamese coming

into

this country, some of them became the Watergate burglars.

I think that is essentially what you are saying?

Chairman Church.

Yes, I can see potential problems.

Senator Tower. We will get Ted Shackney in here to talk

to us about that. He is the Station Chief in saigon.

Chairman Church.

That takes care of it. Thank you very

much.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the Committee was recessed,

subject to the call of the Chair.!

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