MC ILVAIN TAPE (DUPLICATE)
Originator: ROCK
Document date: 00/00/1975
Document type: SOUND RECORDING

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Date: 01/30/97

Page :

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : ROCKCOM

RECORD NUMBER: 178-10002-10085

RECORDS SERIES : BELIN-GRAY-GREENE FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : B-G-G (IV-Z) INTERVIEW WITH JUDD MCILVAIN

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION

FROM : BELIN, DAVID

TO: THE FILE

TITLE : INTERVIEW WITH MR. JUDD MCILVAIN

DATE: 00/00/75

PAGES

:18

SUBJECTS : CIA

OSWALD, LEE, TRIP TO MEXICO

CONSPIRACY THEORIES, CIA

BELIN, DAVID

MC ILVAIN, JUDD

DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS: OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 01/30/97

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS : Unmarked but may contain classified information.

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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## Page 2

Date: 06/30/93

Page: 1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : ROCKCOM

RECORD NUMBER : 1781000210085

RECORDS SERIES :

BELIN-GRAY-GREENE FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : B-G-G (IV-Z) INTERVIEW WITH JUDD MCILVAIN

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION

FROM : BELIN, DAVID

TO : THE FILE

TITLE :

INTERVIEW WITH MR. JUDD MCILVAIN

DATE : 00/00/75

PAGES : 18

SUBJECTS :

CIA

OSWALD, LEE, TRIP TO MEXICO

CONSPIRACY THEORIES, CIA

BELIN, DAVID

MC ILVAIN, JUDD

DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION : U

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS : P

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/30/93

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

Unmarked but may contain classified information.

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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## Page 3

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COMMISSION ON CIA ACTIVITIES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES

Washington, DC 20500

MEMORANDUM:

TO:

The File

FROM:

David W. Belin

SUBJECT: Interview with Mr. Judd McIlvain

Belin:

Okay, I'm going forward here and trying to record our

conversation as we go forward so I'm going to ask you

to state your name and your phone number, If I can please.

Mellvain: Okay, my name is Judd McIlvain. My phone number in

Houston is (713) 526-8811, that's my office phone number.

B:

And you're with the television station there?

M:

I'm with KHOU-Television and I'm in the news department.

I am an investigative reporter.

B:

Okay, now let me stop a minute and see if this thing is

working here, if we can.

M:

B:

All right.

Well, it's working but not very well, so we'll go forward

and hope we can get it down here. As I understand it,

you said that some time ago, you better give me the approximate time

it occurred, that there was a woman that came to your office.

M:

Right. That's what--to the best of my knowledge and the

knowledge of our former news director, in January or

February of 1968 a woman, whose name we cannot determine now,

came to our offices and wanted to talk to us. I was assigned to sit

down and talk to this woman. She was a woman in her late forties

or early fifties, kind of heavy set, I think a Jewish woman. She said

PHOTOCOPY

FROM

THE

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1r22ix

she was from Dallas, Texas, originally in real estate business and

she had been employed by the CIA as a payroll courier or clerk, and

she would courie [sic] money from Dallas, Texas to operations öf the

CIA in Mexico City or other areas in Latin America. She only

mentioned Mexico City specifically though, and she showed me papers

at that time which I looked at and they seemed authentic froma prison

in Mexico City, the women's prison in Mexico City D. F. and those

papers indicated that she had been in prison, as I recall, for four

years serving a term for illegal use of a credit card specifically an

American Express credit card which she said she was using as a

CIA credit card. I wasn't clear if it was issued to her or the CIA

but she said she used it for all her business expenses for the Govern-

ment and she sat down and told me a story that was very detailed

and she outlined the story of, you know, with all the facts and figures

that really surprised me that anyone would have those facts and

figures in their hands if they had been in prison for the last four

years in Mexico City and they dealt with the Kennedy assassination

and specifically with events leading up to the assassination in the

summer before the assassination.

B:

Okay, now that was the summer before the assassination,

that would be the summer of 1963?

M:

Yes sir.

B:

Okay, and what did she say with regard to these events?

M:

Well, with regard to these events - first she stated that

she just couldn't understand what the mystery was about

the Kennedy assassination and she said let me, you know, she says

I'm a CIA employee, let me explain to you what I was doing and she

said I just can't quite understand how, you know, the United States

could accept the Warren Report. She was very concerned about that

and then she outlined what she had been doing. She said in the summer

of '63 she was courieing money back and forth from Dallas, Texas.

B:

At what intervals was she courieing money?

M:

To the best of my knowledge it was something like on a

monthly basis. It might have been a bi-weekly basis,

I know it wasn't every week. I don't remember, it was either, it

was probably a monthly basis.

PHOTOCOPY

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B:

Okay.

M:

I just, that wasn't a point that we stuck on, you know,

on real hard.

B:

It was not more often than every other week and you

think probably was once a month but it may have been

once every two weeks that she supposedly went down there?

M:

Right. Now, she said that she would go down on a

normal basis and she would meet people at different

locations that would be pre-arranged and she would simply given

them the check. They'd open the check, look at it, and give her a

receipt that they received the check. She said on different occasions

she had met persons at a, you know, an old race track, or at least

a race track that wasn't being used at that time. I think she said

south of Mexico City. I know she said just outside of Mexico City,

I think was south, and she said she met him there at one time and

paid off several people, you know, at one spot and she noticed at

that time that they were using the race track to put a car - drive a

car down the track; they would have - they had some people on the

ground on the track with walkie-talkies and some people up in the

stands and they were using binoculars and walkie-talkie - and rifle

siting, you know, sites to site down on the car and they were doing

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

know, assassinate someone. You know, she said this very straight

forwardly like, you know, she didn't find that as a surprise, she

knew what her job was and that it didn't surprise her at all. So, she

said she had just heard rumors and talk around and she thought it

was a plan to assassinate Castro. That's what she told me.

But,

she said though she didn't know that as a fact and no one had told her

that as a fact, it was just information that she picked around - and

picked up around and that's what she thought it was and it didn't

surprise her. So, she continued paying them through that summer

and then...

B:

She continued paying whom through the summer?

M:

The different - the different agents, I guess. The people

that she made the varied deliveries to, she didn't name

anybody but Oswald.

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B:

But, all right, go ahead.

M:

Of course, I wouldn't have known anybody but Oswald.

B:

Okay, go ahead.

M:

Then she said she met Oswald once in a little coffee shop,

you know, like you sit out on a plaza reforma or something

like that, she may have said the Plaza Reforma and she sat down and

they both had a cup of coffee, and she gave him his check and he

opened it up and he was concerned about the amount and made some

mention to her, or something, and she said, you know, she said the

standard thing she always says, you know, I have nothing to do with

the amounts or anything like that, I just deliver the money and he

was unahppy about it, and then the next time she met him at the same

location...

B:

Now, you mean the next time, you mean on the next trip

she took?

M:

The next trip, right. The next regular pay period when-

ever that was and gave him his check again and he opened

it up and this time he was more vocal about his displeasure about

what was the amount of the check and that's when he made his comment

about if X number of dollars were not in the next pay envelope or the next ched

then Kennedy is not going to die on schedule. I almost remember her

saying that on schedule and then she was very concerned because

she know - she knew she showed some surprise, that she didn't mean

to, she was trying to keep her composure and not show any surprise

but she was, you know, surprised because she didn't know anything

about that or hit her as a surprise. She was afraid that Oswald then

realized that she was, you know, on the inside and she didn't know and

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD

FORD LIBPARY

that was according to her very frightening because she didn't know then

who she could trust and she went back to Dallas and continued on

and didn't do anything about it I think for several weeks and then she

decided to write a letter to the only person in gove mment she said

she'd ever met and that was - who did I tell you it was? I forgot who

it was.

B:

You mentioned to me it was Adalai Stevenson.

i...

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B:

And was that within a few weeks after this trip

down in the summer of 1963 or was this after the

Kennedy assassination that she supposedly wrote...

M:

Okay, now, listen, again I'm working from my

memory. I don't honestly remember if she said

she wrote the letter before or after, I really don't remember.

• B:

It was either before the Kennedy assassination.

M:

It had to be, it had to be before she went to prison.

She went to prison before - so it had to be before

the Kennedy assassination. If he actually died then, I don't know

when he died, I have no idea when he died.

B:

Well, she said though, that he died and didn't return

the correspondence, or what did she say?

She said he died and she was concerned about, you

know, what happened to the correspondence and whose

hands it might fall into, and that concerned her quite a bit.

B:

Well now, did she say she went to prison before the

Kennedy assassination?

M:

Repeat the question, I'm sorry I didn't understand

it.

B:

Did she say she, that she went to prison before the

Kennedy assassination?

M:

As I understood it, yes.

B:

You better repeat because, as to what the occason

was of her going to prison because I don't think we

have this down on the tape because I think that's something you

mentioned before I had started taping the recordings.

M:

Right.

(End of tape 1)

PHOTOCOPY

GERALD

R.

LIBPARY

г..

BE,:

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M:

Now, you see now these times are not my times

they're her times...

B:

I understand.

M:

The way I remember then so if I'm a little shakey

on the times going from about five years and you

know second or third hand, well second hand from her. Okay,

she said she was concerned; she wrote the letter and then he died

and she wasn't sure whatever happened to the correspondence; she

was concerned about that but apparently not enough concern to

quit work and she continued her regular job and, then one night,

in Mexico City with her roommate, as I said she worked with

another woman, they worked in pairs, in a pair, and they were

in their apartment, or hotel room, I don't know which one it was,

and

someone broke in; there was a fight and there were shots and

as far as she knows her roommate was killed because, you know,

she fled, she didn't stay around to see if she was dead or not but

as far as she understood the woman was dead. And, she went

to a hotel; she stayed there for a week and then she was arrested

by Mexican authorities on charges of misuse of a credit card.

She went to jail; she called the U.S. Embassy or the Consular

section of the Embassy in Mexico City; they said don't worry about

it, we'll get you an attorney and we'll send someone from the

Consular Section and they'll meet you in court and all that sort of

thing. She said that she went to court and the man from the

Consular section was the man that had broken into the apartment

and that was the only person she knew in the whole room and that

made her very concerned because she realized that, she really

had a problem and her Mexican attorney pleaded her guilty, or

something like that, and she said that she didn't understand too

well because there was a lot of Spanish and she doesn't speak

Spanish, but they were translating for her. But she said her

Mexican attorney hired by the U.S. Embassy made the judge

angry and the judge got very angry and the judge asked her if

she would rather just deal with him and she said yes and so she

dealt directly with the judge. Apparently the judge didn't seem to

think that she was getting very good representation or something

on that order. That's very foggy in my memory and she didn't

dwell on that, she just kind of went right by it. Anyway, then she

went off to prison for a sentence of apparently four years because

that would make it just about the right time she would come out

of prison and be in Houston, Texas the beginning of '68.

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R.

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B:

And, as I understand it, then in the beginning of

'68, then after she got out of prison, she then

contacted you.

M:

I don't, I don't know the time frame from the time

she got

out of prison to the time she got to Houston.

As I recollect it wasn't a long period of time that she flew

to Houston. I said why didn't you go to Dallas if you have

friends and stuff

in Dallas and

she said that was one of the

reasons she wasn't going to Dallas because all her contacts

and the people she had worked for were in Dallas and she

named off quite a few people that had since been killed or

had accidents or something like that you know.

And, of

course, can't remember the names of those people. I didn't

even know the too well then because I'm not a scholar on

the Kennedy

assassination by any means at all but, she

ran down quite a few names of people that had been involved,

and I had read

about, that they had been killed or some-

thing happened them; the strange deaths and she said she

didn't want that to happen to her and that's why she hadn't

gone back to Dallas and I asked her what

she was going to

do with the information because I couldn't use it because

it was nothing to prove there which were all allegations

and she said well, she didn't know really what she'd do

with it.

That she had, oh wait, I missed, I missed a vital

point there.

While

she was in prison she had written

some letters to Garrison and she was very unhappy with Mr.

Garrison because she said that he used the information she

had given him in personal letters for sensationalism and

everything and she was very down on him.

She didn't want

publicity or anything like that she was

like (ha, ha) if

I may use the word like a "civil servant" type person,

you know, with the government, you know, no publicity or

anything like that - that type and she was very unhappy

with

the

information that she claimed Garrison had used

from her letters

and she said that's why she quit writing

him about it. --she was corresponding.

B:

Did she say anything else?

M:

She sat and talked for an hour and forty-five

minutes.

I'm doing the best I can to recall.

B:

One thing before I start taping, you mentioned that

Oswald had a job down in Mexico City or of the two

different trips she was down there to see him, was he working

there or what?

PHOTOCOP Y

FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

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M:

Well, as

I understood from her he was working for

the CIA.

B:

Was he working for the CIA in Mexico City?

M:

Right.

That's why she was down there paying him.

Right.

She never - that's what she was so amazed;

she kept saying, I'm so amazed, he has been an employee of

the CIA for so long, you know, what, you know, how come

someone can't find this out.

B:

Well, what I'm trying, in other words, we're trying

to take a look at the

allegations that would

theoretically bring the jurisdiction of our Commission, as

I understand what you're saying, she claimed that Oswald

was working for the CIA in Mexico City...

M:

B:

M:

That's right.

And that she was in

Mexico City that she saw him on

two different occasions which would have then, if

not at least one month apart, at least two different weeks

apart. In other words, during the summer of 1963 she saw

him on at least two different occasions.

Right. Then also saw him in combination with several

people out there at that race track.

B:

Would that have been on another occasion she was down

there or...

No. On another occasion, right. On two occasions

were at the sidewalk cafe. Another occasion she

told me about was earlier, before the sidewalk cafe.

B:

All right. That would be at the race track where

they were supposedly sighting with guns with tele-

scopic sites?

M:

Right, and they were running a car down this, down

had people in the bleachers.

Leen one betwee the ble shed they aned on theye-

alkies and they moved up a couple of bleachers and move

lown a couple of bleachers.

couple of people

you know...

THE

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B:

And that basically means that Oswald, if her trips

were once a month, that means that Oswald then would

have been in Mexico City at least two months. If her trips

were every two weeks, that means Oswald would have been in

Mexico at least one month. There will be three trips, two

weeks apart.

M:

I got the idea there were several months, I'm sorry,

I didn't - God, I wish I had asked her how often did

you pay the man, but I didn't ask her then, but I got the idea

it was several months. It wasn't just like one month, or

anything.

B:

M:

Did she say she paid him in cash or in checks?

Oh God. I"m pretty sure she said cash.

B:

Now, when you say the summer of 1963, what month are

you

talking about, or was she talking about?

M:

She talked about the summer. I don't think she

prayed much to it, if she did I've

forgotten.

I

don't remember the specific months. She might have said,

telling, you know, I think I asked her something, how long

was this going on, you know, and I think she might have said,

well, that's what

she talked about, she said the race track,

well, you know, I've been down there, you know, many times,

something like that, that's when they were doing the race

track situation - trying to give me some idea of the timing

involved - how many months.

So I know it wasn't just one

month or something like that;

B:

All right.

So, it would appear there were several

months that he was down there, according to her.

NOW,

when did she say, again, she went into prison?

it she wrote to

died, or something like that?

eng the that

Do you know

Stevenson and then she said she that Stevenson

M:

anah. As I remembex she said you know the man died

B:.

Was she in prison then at the time of the Kennedy

assassination?

M:

Yeah. Apparently yes, she was in prison at the time

of the assassination. And this is the way I recall

the sequence of events.

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R.

FORD LIBPARY

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B:

Ana, did she say how long after she wrote to

Stevenson, let's see, well, you had better give me

the sequence of events on that again.

(End of tape 2)

As I recall, she found out about it, that, she could,

you know,

from, by mistake from Oswald,

and then she

continued her job and

she, if you don't mind, I'm sorry, I'm

thinking dates, its been a while.

Well, as I was saying,

she continued to work as normal, she was trying to pretend

like she didn't know anything, but she was, you know, just,

you know, getting the word about everybody, she was worried

that someone would think that she did know and that she wouldn't

look right, you know,

or that she'd do something wrong, suggest

she'd do something and she was very bothered about it.

Then

she said she wrote a letter to Adalai Stevenson and then, as

I remember, she said he died.

I should have checked right

then, I guess, to figure out

when he died but...

B:

Then after he died, then what happened?

M:

Well, then, then she continued and then she went to

Mexico City on one of these trips and she was staying

in the hotel or the apartment with her roommate and that's

when them, or someone broke in, and there was a gun shot and

everything and her roommate, as far as she knows, is dead, or

was killed that night, and she fled.

window.

B:

M:

And then what?

Then she went to a hotel and she didn't have, you

know, hardly any clothes or anything; she went to the

hotel...

B:

M:

B:

Did she tell you what hotel?

Well, if she did, I don't remember, you know.

All right.

M:

She used a credit card at the hotel because she didn't

have any cash anc

she lived on the credit card for

about a week and then the Mexican authorities showed up and

arrested her for misuse of the credit card. They said it

had been cancelled.

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THE GERALD R.

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B:

Then what happened.

M :

Then she went to jail; called the U.S. Consul

or the Embassy, one of the two, I think she said

she called the Consular

section of the

Embassy and explained

that she was a CIA agent, you know, an employee, she never

said - she never used the word agent,

she used

the word

employee, and that she had been picked up for misuse of

a credit card, which was issued her as an employee.

But

I never got it straight if it was in her name of CIA's

name.

And, they said, well there must be a misunder-

standing, don't worry

about it, we'll have somebody

from the

Consular section come over, he will get you an

attorney and the whole thing. And she said she didn't

hear from him for a day or so and then she went to court,

and they were in court, and they had an attorney, a

Mexican attorney, to represent her.

B:

The Mexican attorney really didn't represent her,

you told ne.

M:

Right, well that was her - that's what she said...

B:

Right, and then she said...

M:

And that the judge seemed to be upset because the

Mexican attorney wanted to plead her guilty without any

defense and then she, I remember she used the term "I

threw myself on the mercy of the court" and she used that

term.

I don't know if she really did that or not.

She

was very upset about this.

She said, you know, she was

really being railroaded, so, she was

a little, not

emotional about

explaining to me lixe, you know, they were railroading

just stating the game, but she was

me and I threw myself

on the mercy of the court; the

judge dealt with me directly and gave me four years,

which I think is a long time.

B:

And she was in prison, she was in prison at the

time of the Kennedy assassination after that?

Apparently so, right.

M:

B:

asked it

be in any way relevant to this woman or her story?

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M: Well, the things that can be relevant - the reason that I haven't

said anything about this for a long long time is because I kept

raising the fact that, you know, she's a Madam X, nobody knows who

she is. But, then, we started thinking about this; maybe she should

be traced down and there could be, you know, I was thinking of the

different ways we could trace back to the prison; through the U.S.

Consular section in Mexico City, they couldn't have had that many

citizens of the United States, U.S. Government employees go to prison.

B: She was in her forties or fifties, she was Jewish, she was an

American, she lived in Dallas, she supposedly worked with

the CIA. Can you remember what her physical description was?

M: Yes, she was kind of a portly woman. She may not have been

Jewish, that may be just a bad memory of mine but I thought

she was - I didn't say "are you Jewish?" Maybe I got that from her

name but I can't remember her name now so that wouldn't help me.

She said

she had worked in real estate.

B: All right, then...

M: She said, you know, I was a pretty well known person in Dallas

real estate business and she said to me, she said I'm not just

a kook or a nobody, I was pretty well known and that's why I worked

with the CIA and that's how I got my job.

B:

not?

All right, now, supposedly Oswald said that Kennedy wasn't

going to be killed on schedule. Did he mention that it was in Dallas or

M: She said Dallas, right. Kennedy was not going to be killed on

schedule in Dallas if they didn't come through with the money

they promised him. So she mentioned the amount because I remember

she mentioned the amount but now I can't remember...

B: Was it more than a thousand or less than a thousand.

M: It certainly was more than a thousand, but I can't remember

how much.

B: Was it more than five thousand if you recall?

PHOTOCOPY

FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

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M:

Sorry, I really can't remember a figure because it was like

there were supposed to be so many thousands added to each

check over a period of time that's why he was saying - hey, they

didn't do it this time, they didn't do it last time, they still haven't

done it, just like, you know, they were supposed to add ao mucy money

to his regular check over a certain period of time, that's why I don't

have the exact figure.

B:

So the check, each check was to be one or more, several

thousand dollar more than it was, is that what you're saying?

M:

Yeah, something like that, right.

B:

Okay, anything else you can think of, whether I've asked it or

not?

M:

I'm trying to think, but this woman, she had, she looked like

she was somebody's grandmother, you know. But, she looked

like a businesswoman in a way, you know. She did have the paperwork

from the Mexican prison, release papers. I happen to read and write

Spanish and speak Spanish and the release forms said that she was

being released from the woman's prison and she had served her time,

in which in Mexico you serve the whole thing, no good time off, she

served the whole period of time and she was being released and she

lad no friends. Now that, she showed me that, that's the only paper-

work the woman had. She was in Dallas, I don't think she was married.

If she did, she never said anything about it, or if she was, she was

diverced

a long time ago and she worked with another woman employee

out of Dallas; she said she was good friends with the police chief in

Dallas and she knew a lot of people in the police force in Dallas and

she just smiled when I asked her about Tippet, Officer Tippet, or

her police department involvement and, you know, they were so involved

how could they not be involved in it and the part about Officer Tippet

and Oswald, you know, was only guess work on her part but she said

that because Oswald had been giving them so much trouble and, you

know, just wasn't playing the game the way he was supposed to be and

he was complaining and getting in a lot of trouble that she felt that -

now these are just her thoughts about it, you know, she's just guessing

at this - that they set him up too because, you know, to take the fall,

as she put it, to take the fall in the Kennedy assassination because he

was, you know, giving them so much trouble and then she thought how

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBPARY

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ridiculous it was for anyone to think that one person would do this.

She pointed out that in any professional operation they certainly

wouldn't have one marksman, they would at least have three, if not

more, because if they were a professional group - she went through

all this, laid all this out for me, you know, she kept saying over and

over, "how can anyone believe that this is how it happened because it

just doesn't make any sense." Of course, she had a lot more informa-

tion that a normal person would have probably.

B:

Anything else you can think of?

M:

Well, let me qualify this all by remembering what this woman

told me.

B:

I understand.

M:

Only a second hand

first hand knowledge. I

have to admit, and this is why I'm probably repaying it, she

did impress me. I went down to the news directory and said, you

know, if this woman is a look or, you know, just making all this up,

boy, she's convincing, she really has it down pat and since she was

in prison and she must have done a hell of a lot of studying of U.S.

newspapers or something to get all these facts down and, but, because

she was so genuine about it, I asked her "what are you going to do?"

And she said, "I'm just going to disappear." She said, "Disapprear,

or if I make an issue, I won't last

very long."

B:

Anything else that you can remember?

Mc

I think you have pretty well sucked out my brain. I'll probably

remember a dozen more things when I....

B:

Now, you got my name from someone in the White House....

M:

Yes, I didn't know whether -- Pete Rossell and Pete works

at the Political Section, Advisory Section to the President

and I forget who else set this up.

B:

Who else do you think it might have been?

M:

What do you mean?

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B:

Was there anyone else at the White House or is that who

you think it was?

M:

No, that is who it is.

B:

All right, well...•

M:

Pete, I talked to Pete about this and he said "well you know

you really ought to talk to someone on the Commission, "

and I said "Yeah, but I don't want to call somebody out of the blue,

they'll think some idiot is calling from Houston." I said, "I don't

want to do that," and so he said "Well let me, let me get to Dave."

He said he was going to talk to you at your office.

B:

Well, let me now see if I have this, if this is really recording.

I hope I can. Just a second. Can you hold the phone another

minute or two?

M:

Sure.

(Pause)

B:

Just to put your mind at ease, we have - we have investigated,

of course,

every allegation that's been made alleging CIA

involvement in theasassination. Thus far, I've said that we have

found no criminal evidence which shows that the CIA was involved and

that Oswald was in any manner an employee or agent of the CIA.

There have been other people that have alleged this although no one

has claimed that someone had actual conversations at the personal

of the CIA employee and what I'm going to do is to

try and run down this allegation to see if the....

FROM THE

GERALD R.

FORD LIBPARY

M:

If you can find out, this Pete, just call Pete Rossell at the

White House if you don't mind, but not at the -- that's where

you are. I keep thinking you're not there. You are at the White House

right?

B:

Well, I'm at, I'm within a half block of the White House.

M:

All I know is the switchboard answers "White House." when of e

B:

Right.

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16

sanatest

M:

If you don't mind, you might want to talk to Pete

about me

so that you have some understanding what this is all about.

I feel kind of strange explaining this to you because I have no

proof. I don't even remember the lady's name. You know, I can

kill myself; as an investigative reporter that I didn't have the lady's

name.

B:

Well, I wish you did have the lady's name because it would

make our job here easier to try and run down a specific

name as opposed to a general name. The problem is basically

With your story is several fold. Number one, the Warren Com-

mission knew where Oswald was during the summer of 1963 and

he was in New Orleans that entire time and didn't leave for Mexico

few days of September and he only made one trip down there so

he would't have been down there on a so-called track or running

assassination sitings on some kind of a race track with rifles.

So that is something that the Warran Commission found and I

think

he had almost pay-check-by-pay-check

and they also had different people at the farm during the summer

of 1963. The other thing is that ...

M:

Did you get paid by check then and not by cash?

B:

Pardon?

M:

B:

Did he actually sign a pay check?

When I said pay check?

M:

B:

M:

Yeah, who do you mean by paycheck?

I mean that Oswald would have gotten - we know where he

was and where he worked during the summer of 1963.

Oh, I see. now.

And when he worked he would have gotten paid by check,

I believe. Now, I was not intimately involved in that

aspect of the Warren Commission investigation as to the summer

of 1963 except that I do know from the lawyers that were involved

from the Warren Commission that he was in New Orleans during

PHOTOCOPY

FROM '

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17

the entire summer of '63. The other aspect of it, apart from the

fact that it's inconceivable, of course, to believe that a government

agency would be doing that, you'd still have to check the rumors.

But there are a number of other discrepancies in the woman's

story when with the facts that, I mean independent facts, that you

related which would mean that the story would not check out and

that undoubtedly the story is inaccurate, but nevertheless, I'm

still going to ehck out to see whether or not they had any people

in Dallas during 1963 who were couriers for money in Mexico..•

M:

I'd hate to think you'd pin me too close to the month

because boy, I'm just doing this from a very shakey

memory but I do tend to remember it was sometime in the sum-

mer.

It may have lapped over but I'm sure she was talking about

summer or summer months and maybe it lapped over into the fall.

B: ]

Well, there are ether inaccuracies in the factual statements

that you related to me but in any event I am going to check

out to see whether or not the Agency had any, without checking

out, you know, I'm not going to go through the whole story. I'm

going to go forward and find out first of all whether or not the

people had any couriers that were courieing money down to Mexico

City from Dallas in 1963 without relating it to the Kennedy assassina-

tion just to find out what those facts were and do some independent

investigation on that. If they have none I think that would probably

cooberate at least the fact that this - probably a story of which

there were many. I remember from the Warren Commission days

there were all kinds of people that had all kinds of stories that

were practically fantasy.

M:

This is the first person I ever heard though that claimed

that they were employees. That's what - that would be

easy to eheck.

B:

Well, I'm going to check that one out and I appreciate your

taking the time to call it in. We will check it out.

M:

Would you mind telling me if anything comes of it. I'd

sure like to know.

B:

Yes. If anything comes of it I will let you know.

N:

Okay, I'd like to call you back in about a month or so

just to check with you if you don't mind.

B:

That's fine.

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBRARY

i...

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## Page 20

B:

M:

B:

M:

B:

M:

B:

18

That's fine.

All right.

All right....

If you want to get ahold of me I'm at that phone number, right.

Right.

Okay. Thank you very much.

Bye, Bye.

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R. FORD LIBRARY

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