DEBRIEFING REPORT
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
To: WITHHELD
Document date: 02/27/1990
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Date: 10/20/98

Page:

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

------------------

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY

RECORD NUMBER

RECORD

• SERIES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER

CIA

104-10014-10061

JFK

80T01357A

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

======

eleased under the Joh

F. Kennedy

Assassination Recorda

Collection Act of 1992

144 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 53199 Date:

06-06-2017

ORIGINATOR

FROM

CIA

WITHHELD

TO

TITLE

DEBRIEFING REPORT

DATE

02/27/90

PAGES

10

SUBJECTS :

OSWALD, L.H.

DOCUMENT TYPE :

CLASSIFICATION

RESTRICTIONS

CURRENT STATUS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS

PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SECRET

1B

RELEASED WITH DELETIONS

09/08/98

OSW17: V59 1998.09.08.12:01:17:686120:

CLASSIFIED

ATTACHMENT

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

HN 33199

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... W

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RAW REPORT NO:

DATE:

7430

DEBRIEFER:

ALGE

OTHERS PRESENT:

DATE OF DEBRIEFING:

TAPE NO.

REQUIREMENT NO.:

SUBJECT:

SOURCE:

DOI:

DSE226:93

Late 1989

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS RAW, UNEVALUATED-INFORMATION.

PLEASE DO NOT SEND- IT TO THE FIELD IN THIS FORM.

ERLEASE DO NOT-MAKE ANY COPTES OFETHTS RAW REPORT

1.

See

below.

INDECANTER Debriefing 27 Feb 90

The tape begins with conversation already in progress.

Repetitions and extraneous remarks have been deleted except where

added for emphasis. Requests to spell or repeat on the part of

the debriefer have usually been omitted except where it is

possible that the debriefer does not understand. As Subject tends

to include "you know" or "and so on and so forth" in almost every

sentence, these phrases have usually been omitted. Parentheses

indicate

words missing or partially garbled. ll indicate

transcriber's explanatory notes or translations. The letter G is

used to note words garbled, i.e. (1-2G)

- one to two words

garbled or (XG) - unknown number of words garbled. During

portions of this debriefing the microphone is placed too far away

from Subject, making a good portion of his comments unreadable.

CE

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pretend that they

are students. I daresay that the same thing that we

mentioned here with scientists we just perform with students.

l: You also mentioned students studying in Moscow. You target

them as well?

A: Well, we have very many changes within department, with the Second Chief.

Say, once British students actually belong to

Fifth Department, Fifth

section of my Department.

Directorate.

Then we just

hand over them to Fifth

It's a very strange thing, maybe, for you to understand"

but Eleventh Department of Second Chief, which is responsible for

counterterrorism, handles Pushkin Institute.

I don't know how to

explain.

Right now we are not involved directly with business with

the

students but we will never miss an opportunity just to recruit a

British student or American student or somebody else because

taught that, if you remember this British spy case, most of them were

recruited while being in Cambridge or Oxford. And

later they make their

real careers in FCO or intelligence or some place like this.

That's

why we look on students as a

potential group of targets. Besides that,

well, in my case

once I took a student, sorry, it was Fourth

Directorate, he was a contact from a girl from Commercial Department of

the British

Embassy, that's why (?I recruit?).

I: And how productive was he? He was used to work against the girl

eventually or not?

A: When I showed my real truth towards this guy he got frightened

wanted to get out from me and at that time he was

journalist NBC or

something like this, like reporter or

something of this stuff and I

wanted him to prevent from joining NBC but the boss at NBC, maybe

(1-2G) later (?relieve?)

my (IG) so he was recruited by one of our guys

in Second Chief

and that's why he said,

"Hey, can't you tell this guy,

of this student.'? I want him to work for me.' And the boss

told me, 'Get out. (1-2G)."

l: He was possessive of his agent, he didn't want to get his agent involved?

A: American occupied, of course, higher position in NBC and then British

student who wanted to be journalist NBC, and he personally told our

officer, "I want this guy. I want this British guy to work for me in

' So, he was okay.

recording is evidently stopped

for some time. l

A: SO (IG)-On-OSWALD, you mentioned earlier attending reception in KGB

higher school in Minsk .

He discussed his involvement with Lee Harvey

OSWALD. I told you, probably, before that while being stationed in

Minsk, OSWALD was considered to be one of our agents.

l: While you were in - Wait a minute, what was that with Minsk?

A: Yes.

l: Before you were in Minsk he was considered, while you were in minsk -

A: I had a guy, a Colonel, Colonel, family

name is YURSHAK. [Contrary to

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Debriefer's notes and pronunciation, Subject consistently pronounces

"sh' vice "ch" so surname will be noted as YURSHAK.] Although this

Colonel told me that he ran a file on OSWALD. MARINA, OSWALD'S wife, was

our swallow. She was our agent.

Q: MARINA was a swallow run by, do you know which Directorate?

A: Local KGB branch in Minsk. KGB Belorussii, vtoroy otdel [Belorussian KGB,

Second Directoratel.

Q: Vtoroy otdel would correspond to the Second Directorate?

A: That's right.

Q: So MARINA was directed, OSWALD was living at that time in Minsk?

A: He was living at that time in Minsk. I know his living area pretty well.

He was put in very good conditions. It was housing area on Svisloch

River and it's very beautiful. (1G) apartments or something like this.

Q: Was she a prostitute before she was recruited?

A: She was not a prostitute, a real prostitute in the sense you mean. She was

kind of our girl whom we can just tell,

'Come on and do this.' But she

was not a prostitute in classic sense.

Q: And she was directed to get OSWALD in bed?

A: To get OSWALD in bed.

Q: OSWALD at that point had already been debriefed but not recruited?

A: That's right. He was recruited at that point but -

Q: By MARINA or before?

A: No, before, because - maybe for you to understand, every guy who is

living in a different region of the Soviet Union and he is a Brit or

American, the locals pretend to recruit him and they pretend that they

run a very important agent.

so, I don't know what kind of information

could he release to them. Except

for MARINA I don't know actually, but

even a lady teacher from

Britain who lives in Irkutsk, even they

pretend that she is their agent. So YURSHAK told me directly that "I

was a case

officer for OSWALD. I was running a file on him." Of course,

he was not a real agent in a classical form but we reported to the

Center that we are running a foreign agent and all this

stuff, physical

description and his age.

I don't know whether he is still there

because in my time most of the guys are retired. He was not, he was a

Colonel.

Q: Polkovnik

(Colonel in Russian?

A: Yeah. In Signal Department, then a lot of wrinkles, salt and pepper,

straight hair, blue eyes, good German language, spending some, certain

point of his career in East Berlin.

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Q: As Third Chief Directorate do you think?

A: I think that he was assigned to N Line at that time because he was

mentioning some kind of (?il) legal breach.

Some seven or eight years

he's in East Germany.

Q: Do you know when that would have been?

A: Frankly speaking I don't know whether it was before OSWALD's

afterwards.

case

Q: When would OSWALD have been in Minsk? What years approximately?

A: Oh, I don't know, he spent there some year and

a half I think.

Q: KENNEDY was shot in 1961. [Kennedy was actually assassinated in November

of 1963.] So, it would have been the '50's, late

150's..

A: Late '50's maybe but I don't know correct, exact age.

Q: Okay, so YURSHAK, you don't recall his first name?

A: Maybe I will recall later but YURSHAK his real

family name.

Q: Was he in the local KGB in Minsk?

A: Yes, of course.

Q: Is he Ukrainian?

A: Family name, of course, Ukrainian, but he is much more Russian. I told

you, nothing

(1G) .

l: Do you recall his family situation, married, children?

A: YURSHAK married, grown-up children.

l: Already at that time?

. A: Yeah.

Q: And you knew him in 1981, something like this.

A: 1981 was the time when I was in Minsk. He was a kind of supervisor for the

class. In Russian, (1-2G) it's a kind of dyadka, uncle. ('Dyadka" was

also used to indicate a tutor for noble families or an usher in a boys'

private school.]

-Q: [Mutters to himself] and his background?

A: I told you, professional KGB, approximately KGB higher school.

All career

devoted to KGB, maybe some kind of military start, but later of career

devoted to our service.

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Of course, everybody has signals and signal school, that's probably not an

indication of any -

A :

Not everybody because in my time,

I was there, all the personnel, all the

cadets

should wear insignia

of

signals but you know I know one guy who

was from the Navy and he was wearing naval uniform, I mean t-shirt.

Second guy, with Air Force or something like this, he wears Air Force.

Q: So this was the Belorussian KGB?

A: Yes.

Q: When he was in the school would he have been working for the KGB SSR?

A: Who?

Q: YURSHAK.

A: Actually, this school is assigned to White Russian KGB, belorusskaya

[white Russianl. And this is responsibility for white Russian KGB,

that's why they

make second test on physical and so on and so forth..

Because he had

a kind of inferiority complex before the He.

Q: So you think he may still be at the Belorussian KGB?*

A: I think that he was really seriously thinking at that point of his

retirement.

Q: What was his age at that time?

A: Late 50's.

Q: So he would have been born in the early '20's.

A :

Maybe mid '20's.

Q: (3-4G)? Did he talk about his experiences in the war?

A: No, I think no. He didn't mention, he had a very strong sense of, discuss

certain stories but he never

mentioned his war experience so I think

that he didn't take part in war.

Q: With Germany. Did he, well, let's look at the second question. Why did he

(1G) the OSWALD case? Was it

class

A: Actually, no, it was in private discussions. It was in class, also. Also,

he was a guy, who always tried to speak about his personal

experience. He

was the kind of a guy, a storyteller. But I would believe him because I

know the system from its inside and of course they should have had a

file on OSWALD.

I: Do you think that he was bragging about his involvement in this, making

himself seem important?

A: No, I don't think so but I think that 100 percent he was involved in this

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OSWALD case. It was also his mentioning that we never make a kind of

order to OSWALD to kill President.

Q: Do you think that MARINA was

the States with her?

still an active

contact after OSWALD went to

A:

No. He told me that, he used an

expression for her as a bitch because he

told me, 'This bitch just completely forget about us when she reach

States.

Q:

That she did (1-2G). What did he say privately about the case as opposed

to what he said in class?

A :

It was very long ago and I can only recollect that I heard the same type

of stories that he used to tell before the class and that he discussed

with me privately. He was stuck to his one point of view. First, never

had any kind of task for OSWALD to kill KENNEDY. Second, that he was

actually recruited and he ran him. And third, MARINA was our swallow and

then she rejected cooperation. These three points were repeated by him

more than once.

Q: And he didn't say what OSWALD was recruited for?

A: I told you that, just to understand us from inside, it's a local KGB

branch, rarely visited, especially at that period of time, by Americans

or Western targets. Imagine American is settled down in this place. of

course he will be run. I just believe in this.

Q: Just for the prestige of having recruited an American?

A: Just for the prestige of having American recruitment, American agent in

small Russian city.

Q: Did he say anything about what did happen, whether he was called in and

asked about OSWALD and OSWALD shot the President?

A: What do you mean?

Q: Was YURSHAK contacted and asked about OSWALD?

A: No, I don't recollect

anything

about this but, of course, he could be

debriefed at this period of time because he was actually agent runner

and he never told me that it was a kind of task made by us.

Q: Would he have continued to be considered the agent handler even after

OSWALD was back in

the States?

A: He said that later he passed the file to HQ. That's what he told me.

- Q: Later,

before the President was shot but after OSWALD went to the States

A: Yeah.

Q: He turned

the files

over?

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A: Something maybe, no, maybe not in this case.

Q: Did he say how

extensive the files were?

A: What do you mean by extensive?

Q: Were there two small folders. or were there lots of -

A: He said that he was running a lot of files on OSWALD, lots of volumes.

Q: Thick volumes?

A: Yeah, because we just, we put inside agent report, surveillance

then

monitoring report inside, and so on.

report,

What did he say about OSWALD as an agent? Was he cooperative?

A: He said that he was the sort of

person that doesn't know that he is an

agent

of somebody else.

Q: He didn't understand what was

A: He said that he himself is of a very low opinion on OSWALD as a

personality. He said that he always suspected this American

marine to

be a bit crazy and unpredictable in his (?tasks?). One more thing,

maybe that will help. He mentioned that OSWALD

never wrote (??a real??)

receipt.

Q: What

was the importance of that, do you think?

A: In '50's we were more tough on -

l: Accounting receipts?

A: Yeah, but no, not accounting for money. I mean receipts that I mentioned

in

the morning, "I just fully agree to work for the KGB" and so on.

2: He didn't sign an agreement to cooperate?

A: He didn't sign.

Q: But that he was,

and OSWALD may not have realized it, what the

relationship

was.

A :

That's right. Although I can

tell you that YURSHAK told me that OSWALD

knows exactly that this guy is

not a, say, guy from Institute of Foreign

Affairs, White Russian, that he is a KGB. He never (1-2G) meetings but .

he never write a receipt and my personal estimation of this, he never

see something very important or (1-2G) .

Q: Give me a little background if you would on the Belorussian KGB relations

with the KGB of the USSR.

Would an officer of the Belorussian KGB be

assigned abroad in some cases?

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A: Of course, because I knew a guy who was also a teacher in my school but he

was a Representative or Deputy Representative of White Russian U.N.

Q: That's what I was wondering because of the White Russian mission -

A: Being a White Russian national you can be

assigned for a certain period of

time to First Directorate.

Q: So would he, assigned abroad, would he be a First Chief Directorate

A: This is the slot of First Chief, of course. He can serve in First

Department of White Russian

KGB but when he's placed in U.N. in United

States

he's reassigned to First Chief Directorate.

Q: Where would OSWALD's file have gone, the Belorussian KGB if they were to

term this case a U.S. Marine who had defected to the Soviet Union was

going back to the States, if they were to give that file to KGB

Headquarters, which part of the KGB would have it?

A: To HQ. Of course,

at that time it should be Second Chief Directorate but I

think it will be First Department of Second Chief.

Q: American targets?

A: Yes, 100 percent. At that period of time of course, only then.

l: A little more about YURSHAK. He was getting to retire probably in his late

50'5. What would retirement age have been?

A: Well, it's not common thing for the school, in the school they can just

serve, even in their mid 60's or something like this because they are

off duty and they work only with cadets, like me. I think he was telling

us that he is going to retire because this job is very boring for him

and he was responsible for the personnel and he didn't want to be

responsible for anybody in class getting below a certain (1G) -

Q: Young guys.

A: Yes.

(The tape ends at this point.]

A: And by the way, I had plastic ID for Ministry for Foreign Trade,

also.

But normally, not in my case, -

Q: Was

that CASTLE also, was that Terrence William -

A: No, no. For Foreign Ministry it was PETROV, of course, but normally we do

have so-called burka, burka la black felt cape commonly worn by the

military and

policel

means Moscow criminal police.

Q: Get out of jail. Oh, you mean this is ID, identifies you -

A: Identifies you as a policeman, but I didn't because I had too many

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documents. But it's very common and very normal for a Second Chief

officer to have burka, Moscow general ID.

l: Does anything else come to mind on OSWALD? Did you hear any other rumors

or any other authoritative comments on OSWALD besides from YURSHAK?

A: Well, we had also, of course, rumors from this case with different, other

guys and I -

Q: You mean the school?

A: No, after, from First Department and so on and so forth. And my strong

personal inclination is, of course

he used to be our agent when he was

in Russia but he was not given the task to kill KENNEDY, that's my

personal belief.

Q: Any of the rumors that you heard change any of this attitude?

A: No, I can estimate only one, I told you that MARINA, of course, was our

agent and she really denied cooperation when she get out of the Soviet

Union. That's why I heard this, expression about her "a bitch, ' not

only from YURSHAK but from some of the guys from First Department.

Do you think that normally they would have tried to continue contact with

a person of her status when she -

A: Of course, why not? Remember MILLER's case.

Q: MILLER was -?

A: Bureau.

Q: Yeah, but she was married then.

I don't know if she was so attractive

that she could, I mean if she, just as OSWALD'S -

A: The thing that I heard about her, that she was

assigned to N Line, this

girl.

Q: Who? As

a swallow?

A: Yes, not as a

case officer but as a swallow.

I:. So they might have used her abroad if she had been cooperative, try to

seduce, to contact other -

A: Of course. Besides that, one of our basic principles, we never just break

connections with persons until they break their connections with us and,

can't you imagine,

in any place of the world a Russian girl is going off

to the United States. Of course it's better for us to cover her than to

let her go. (3-4G)

'Good-bye to

KGB..'

Q: Yeah. Where did you hear about. (??Martin ANDREWS??)? Was that rumored

later or was that also -

A: In (?Bureau?) case?

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Q:

I mean in connection with MARINA.

No, no. You maybe misunderstood me. This girl in MILLER case

Q: Oh, who was a contact -

A: I heard about N involvement, but not about MARINA. I heard about this,

'I'm leaving, forget about this. " That's what I heard about MARINA's

case but in MILLER case, I heard that she was plant.

Q: She

was

planted to approach MILLER?

A: Maybe, targeting different guy or something like this but she has a strong

connection with swallow.

Q: Meaning that she would have been run by an illegal rather than being run -

A: She is not a case officer, she is a swallow assigned to him, that's what I

heard.

Q: A swallow assigned to him would have had contact with an illegal or she

would have had contact with a Line N officer in the States?

A: I don't know exactly, but all I can tell you is kind of service rumors,

means the guys mention more than once a certain subject.

In this case

they mentioned more than once this girl is highly connected with N Line.

And she is not a case officer. That's what I heard.

Q: You have talked about that extensively?

A: Yeah, sure. But if I don't see (1-2G) the same information, it can be

possible. In this case I didn't see any kind of written information

that, yes she was an agent of N. I'm just telling you about office

rumors. ... Of course, this is the Department boss who is directly in

charge but LIPNYAVICHUS, when I saw him last he was a head of squad

which is responsible for those inspections, head of squad of guys who

were responsible. Besides that, -

Q: What's a squad in Russian?

A: Otdeleniye. Besides that, I know the guy from First Department, Erom

American Counterintelligence who is also responsible for those

inspections.

This guy works directly with American military targets

but he takes part. He takes his cover and he goes with American in

different parts of the Soviet Union.

Q: He's responsible for the military targets in the U.S. Embassy? Attache?

A: Yes.

Q:. But not the Marines.

A: No, don't mix the guards, I call them the guards, and military attaches.

This guy was responsible for military attaches.

I told Bill that he had

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