Originator: SSCIA
Document date: 05/10/1976
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

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JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

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Date:

4/29/201

AGENCY: SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER :

157-10014-10084

RECORD SERIES:

HEARINGS

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 11-H-03

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: SSCIA

FROM:

TO :

TITLE:

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS:

05/10/1976

43

ALPHA 66

CUBA

CENTRAL AMERICA

ARMY INTELLIGENCE

DOCUMENT TYPE:

TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION:

Top secret

RESTRICTIONS:

Consulted

CURRENT STATUS :

Withhold

DATE OF LAST REVIEW :

04/21/1998

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

Box 4

Released under the John F. Kennedy

Assassination Records Collection Act of

1992 (44 USC 2107 Note). Case#:NW

66754 Date: 09-22-2022

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NATTONATE SECURITE

INFORMATION

Unauthorized Disclosure Subject

Vol. 1 OF 3

to Criminal SanctIons

The anth States Briate R3023

Report of Proceedinge

33/22

Hearing held before

Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental

Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activitles

NO

Monday, May 10, 1976

Washington, D. C

(Stenotype Tape and Waste

turned over

to the Committee for destruction)

WARD & PAUL

3017 WILSON BOULEVARD

ARLINGTON, VA 22201

(703) 841-0800

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CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO

DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR

RELEASE OF CIA INFORMA

IN THIS DOCUMENT AS SAN

pn f/12/99

ON

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CONTENIS

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TESTIMONY OF:

Milford Paul Hubbard

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WARD/smnl

Phone (Area 2021 544-6000

EXECUTIVE SESSION

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Monday, May 10, 1976

United States Senatel

Sclect Committee to Study Governmenta

Operations with Respect

Intelligence Activities

Washington, D. C/

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:15 o'clock

p.m. in Room 608, the Carroll Arms Hotel, the Honorable

Richard S. Schweiker presiding.

Present:

Senator Schweiker (presiding)

Also present: Jim Johnston and Michacl Epstein,

Professional Staff Merbers:

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Phone (Area 202) 344-6000

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PROSEEDINGE

Senator Schweiker. Colonel, in accordance with tradition,

we swear all our witnesses, so will you stand and raise your

right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give

is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,

help you God?

Mr. Hubbard:

I do.

Senator Schweiker:

Be seated.

Mr. Johnston. Would you state your full name and

address for the record, please?

oh, D.C. 20003

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TESTIMONY OF MILFORD PAUL HUBBARD

Mr. Hubbard. Milford Paul Hubbard, Rural Route :1,

Liberty, Indiana. The ZIP on that is 47353.

Mr. Johnston. And you retired from the Army as a

Lieutenant Colonel, is that right?

Mr. Hubbard. Right.

Mr. Johnston. With military intelligence?

Mr. Hubbard. Military intelligence.

Mr. Johnston. How long had you served in the Army?

Mr. Hubbard. At the time of my retirement I had 22 years,

six months, 15 days,

something

like that.

Mr. Johnston.

And when did you retire?

Mr. Hubbard. 31 March 1973.

Mr. Johnston.

What branch were you in in the Army?

Mr. Hubbard. Military Intelligence at the time of my

retirement.

Mr. Johnston.

Were you connected with operations

directed at Cuba for Army intelligence?

Mr. Hubbard. Yes.

Mr. Joinston. And would you briefly describe the time

period you were involved with those operations and the puri:

of the operations?

Mr. Hubbara. All right. This is fairly approximate.

August of 1962 to December of 1963, I was a member of the

Puerto Rico station, a subordinate element of Detachment i

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out of the Assistant Chief of Staffffor Intelligence at

Department of the Army: I had three target countries, the

Dominican Republic, Haiti and Cuba.

Senator Schweiker. That Detachment 8

Mr. Hubbard. That's A for Alpha.

Senator Schweiker. What does that mean, the three

countries?

Mr. Hubbard. We were broken down into teams. That was my

geographic area of responsibility.

Senator Schweiker. Detachment A meant those three

countires?

Mr. Hubbard. No. Detachment A had a worldwide mission,

very small, very

select group at that time, working directly

for the Chief of Staff, the Assistant Chief of Staff for

Intelligence.

Senator Schweiker. Of which, Army?

Mr. llubbard. Of Army, yes, sir.

Senator Schweiker. Do you know offhand, did this ultimatel;

go up the chain of command to a Lansdale in Operation MONGOOS:

above

you, now? I realize we are guing

above your staff.

Mr. Hubbard. I understand General Lansdale was bricieu

on some of my material. I personally never briefed the

General. I am sure that someone out of the Pentagon, Detachhie:

À or the ACSI staff passed this information on. I was told

informally General Lansdale had seen some of the reports.

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Senator Schwelker Was it all primarily Army?

Mx. Hubbard.

Senator Schweiker. Everything there was Army intelligence

Mr. Hubbard." (Nods in the affirmative.) Subsequently

the Miami station received Coast Guard small boat handlers,

but it was an Army effört. They were just sent in for;

support.

Senator Schweiker. And what was Detachment A worldwide

mission?

Mr. Hubbard. Sir, I don't know. It was strictly

compartmented.

Senator Schweiker. Okay.

Mr. Johnston. What was your mission from the Puerto Rican

station?

Mr. Hubbard. Insofar as Cuba, we responded to reguirements

We never unilaterally initiated an operation. We responded

to requirements. My fifst involvement with the Cubans was in

response to a reguirement that picked up intelligence rumors

about a frogman operation against a Soviet sugar ship in

Sago La Grande Harbor, Cuba, and which there was something

unusual about this ship. This was immediately following ta

British commander, Crabb, as I recall it, being = his body

being found a few days after attempting to investigate

a

Soviet ship in Loncon. His body was found in shreds.

I received this requirement and through the spotters I

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had recruited previously established contact with the Cuban

guerilla group which

was known as the Second Front of the

Escambray, through a period of several weeks and, you know, the

dark meetings andiwhatever.

I was directed to meet one of the leaders of the Second

Front in Miami. We went to a Cuban safe house. There I was

introduced to a leadér, Luis Guitterez Menoyo. After some

seven hours of discussion, he agreed to let me interview this

frogman, but I had to agree to go by boat, blindfolded. At

that time I was not permitted to leave and go back and call them

and get permission. I had to make a decision whether to

go or no go. So I did. I agreed.

I was blindfolded. We

made a black entry out of Miami, past Immigration and Custons.

They kept me below deck so I couldn't see the compass.

We ended up on a small Island that I determined was

right off of Andros Island. They had a small base camp

in

a former Portuguese sponge fisher village. The only thing

left was the concrete tanks and rods. They used the roof to

provide cover from aerial surveillance.

I interviewed the frogman, got the story, came back

some ten days, 12 days later, as I recall. The Washington

conmunity was flapping, where is Hubbard, at this point. The

report was favorably received, as I recall, and I was directi.

to maintain contact.

This Guitterez Menoyo never spoke English in my presence.

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I very definitely had the feeling he could speak English.

also had a feeling he was not a man to be trusted. However, he

had a second in command," and I'm not sure of the name now --

I was trying to think of it -- Hueget. Ralph was his first

name. He was allegedly a graduate of Georgia Tech architec

tural school, a very sharp young man, and I dealt primarily

with him because of the language barrier.

I was sent to Puerto Rico station because of French, to

work Haiti, and between French, arm and hand

signals, and

English, I could communicate with Cubans.

But working with Hueget, they wanted us to support them,

US

being the United States intelligence community.

I should regress. Although I was operating under a

pseudonym, I very definitely let them know that I was military

as opposed to CIA because CIA had had the flap on the Bay of

Pigs. Menoyo had had many of the pesple the CIA had trained

in the parachute school out on the Bay of Pigs thing, and they

were very bitter, quite bitter. So I let them know that I

was military support. Well, through negotiations, with appro

at the Washington level, we agreed to supply them

small

arms, annunition, rations and medical supplies in exchango to:

permitting me to organize an intelligence net within their

unit, to send agents into Cuba to develop a net within Cuba.

This was progressing quite well. I had picked this

Hueget as the team chief, to be the resident agent in Cuba,

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trained him, received, word that there were six boxcar loads of

supplies en route from fort Bragg, North Carolina, to Miami.

I advised the Second Front of this. Everyone redeived the

news quite welcomely. In approximately two weeks I got the

word that no, we would no longer support them, to advise them,

and then I was placed in the awkward situation of saying

I told them we cannot support them, but maintain our good

relations.

As a

sad note, the night that I advised them of it,

one of the Cubans became a little excited and pulled a knife

and

proceeded to rip up a beautiful new sportcoat I had.

Senator Schweiker. Did you yet reimbursed for that?

Mr. Hubbard.

No, sir. I filed a voucher, and never

heard about it.

I maintained this contact at a much lower profile. Thei

would have nothing really to do with us sincer we would

not support them.

Came up, and again, yentlemen, I do not know the tire

frame, President Kennedy decided that not only would we as:

support them, but he wanted them

stopped, and physically sire

because I had made two trips out there was the base cari, u

the smaller islands off the coast of Cuba where we had escal

caches and supplies.

I drew a map and I don't know whether it was our dav! .:

the British Navy -- the British were involved to some dog"=?

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went out and actually picked up, the people, the, equipment,

supplies, and carted them off. That Is when my situation --

well, I was burned, to use an intelligence term.

They evacuated my family out of Puerto Rico and I was

evacuated out. I think it was either late November or early

December of 163. I had this one subsequent contact In approxi-

mately January. or February of '64 when. I was directed to go

to Miami to turn over Huget to a member of the Miami

team and make a personal introduction.

Senator Schweiker. And who was that contact with, the new

man?

MI. Hubbard. Yes, sir, and sir, I am not sure, but I

think I turned him over to a Captain Stein, David E. Stein.

Senator Schweiker. Did you have dealings with other

groups than the Second Front of Escambray?

Mr. Hubbard. Not of any significance, sir. That was

primarily my unit. I met the leader of Alpha 66 on a one

time, personal introduction basis, Veciana. I had no dealini

with Alpha 66. There was a condlict between the Second Fro.:

of the Escanbray and the Alpha 66. They were both rccruitand

men, support and money, and there was a rivalry between the

two, each accusing the other of being pro-Castro, but misleas.

the

American public.

Senator Schweiker. Well, you were financing in some way:

the Second Front of the Escambray, in other words, paying ther

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for.

information?

Mr: Hubbard.:

Nor sir! think we got off quite easily,

the periodic wine and dine, take them out to dinner, pick up

the tab.

Senator Schweiker. That was it?

Mr. Hubbard. That was about it.

Senator Schweiker. Well, who was doing a similar thing to

Alpha 66?

Mr. Hubbard. As I recall, Alpha 66 was the bailiwick of

CIA, but they let Army nibble on the edges at the Miami station.

I think Miami had received words of hands off of Alpha 66. Now.

I may be mistaken.

Senator Schweiker. They said it was an Army operation.

Mr. Hubbard. Well, if that is the case, it would go

into the Miami station, and that was commanded by Duke Watlington,

Junius, J-u-n-i-u-s, Watlington, W-a-t-l-i-n-g-t-o-n.

Senator Schweiker. What was his position at that time?

Mr. Hubbard. He was the station chief, Miami station chief

for Ariny.

Senator Schweiker. If it wasn't the CIA, as you though:

it might have been, why do you think it was the CIA station

ahat might have had Alpha 66?

Mr. Hubbard. Well, it would have fallen under his

jurisdiction, yeographic responsibility, sir.

Senator Schweiker. Well, I thought, as I understand you,

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Mr. Hubbard. Well, we often had dual coverage of

a country.

Senator Schweiker. Do you remember a person who might have

Used the cryptonym Bishop; that might have had some dealings

with Alpha 66 or Veciana, Morris Bishop?

Mr. Hubbard. No, sir. Most of us at that time, for

security reasons, we knew each other in pseudoname. Very

few of us knew each others' true name. But we had a man whose

true

name was Bishop, but thas was subsequent, I am reasonabl;

sure.*

Senator SChweiker. lle was an intelligence officer, you min?.

No. Hubbard. Yes.

SenatorSSchweiker. What department did he work in?

Mr. Hubbard. Sir, I don't know. He was not a member

of Detachnent A, as I recall.

Senator Schweiker. Did he work out of Puerto Rico statiori

MI. Hubbard. No.

Senator Schweiker. Where might he have worked out of?

ir. Hubbard. lie might have worked out of Panama. As

recall Bishop, his name was Lynn, L-y-n-n, Major or Lieuten.

Colonel Bishop. But I think he was on the intelligence staff

in Panama.

Senator Schweiker. For the ARmy?

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Mr. Hubbard.

Yes.

Senator schweiker. Do you recall what he looked Ilke?

Mr. Hubbard. Yes, sir.: He later servdd under me in

Vietnam.

Senator Schweiker. He did later serve with you in Vietnam

Do you recall did he look anything like that?

Mr. Hubbard. No, sir, he was bald.

Senator Schweiker. Okay.

Does that ring a bell with you on any peripheral contacts

you might have made during this period of time with anybody,

possibly somebody in the arms business supplying arms to the

exiles?

Mr. Hubbard. No, sir, but you mentioned arms. We hau

Castro's foliut Ambassador to London and Castro's first

Minister of Finance that was my source, Burns, William Burns,

carried dual citizenship, British and Cuban. He was Fabrique

Nationale's arms representative in Latin and South America.

Senator Schweiker. They were out of Bolgium, were they?

ir. Hubbard. Yes, sir, Fabrique Nationale.

Senator Schweiker. Does he look anything like that?

MI. Hubbard. No, sir. But periodically I know that I

was going to use the cover on a trip into Haiti to interview

or gain access to Duvalier, of traveling with Burns as his

weapons demonstrator. Burns, periodically on his weapons sel

trips would take

someone who was proficient in the weapon

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that he was pushing at the time, with some changes, this could

be Owen Darnell: He was a beached captain representing Lykes

Steamship Line, Puerto Ríco.

Senator Schweiker, Lykes?

Darnell, D-a-r-n-e-1-l, a beached captain?

Mr. Hubbard, He was a bona fide ship's captain, but he

was on the beach.

Mr. Epstein. Was he working for you, Darnell?

Mx. Hubbard. He was a source of mine. As I recall, he

was born in 1908 in Colorado.

He was married to a Cuban

woman. I think perhaps because of health reasons, Lykes

Steamship line took him from the ocean-going vessels, and made

him their Puerto Rican chief. He was in charge of Lykes

Steamship.

Senator Schweiker. How do you spell that?

Mr. Hubbard. Lykes, L-y-k-e-s. It is a large steamship

line hare in the United States.

Senator Schweiker.

You're saying it is similar. You are

not saying'it is the same person.

Mi. Hubbard. Yes, sir. The jan is too square, but

across the eyes, yes, sir. I am not saying that it is, but

that is the only one that I can

come up with.

Senator Schweiker. What was his role again at the time

that you met him? In other words, what was he doing there?

Mr. Huobard. He was spotting and assessing for me.

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Mr: Hubbard.

Yes,/sir. It was through him that I gained

access to the Second Front.

Senator Schweiker. Might he have had some dealings with

Alpha 66 or Veciana?

Mr. Hubbard. Sir, he very, possibly did. "When Veciana

would come to Puerto Rico, he would definitely contact Darnell.

I think that he stayed at Darnell's on occasion.: That I cannot

say for sure, but my belief is he did.

Senator Schweiker. Is he -- do you know where he is

located now?

Nr. Hubbard. No, sir. The last I know he was in Puerto

Rico, San Juan.

Mr. Epstein. Is there any other name he went under?

Nr. Hubbard. No, sir.

Mr. Epstein.

Was there a code name that he used?

Mr. Hubbard. No.

We did not assigne pseudonames for

spotters.

There was no requirement. They were not operational.

Senator Schweiker. Tell me what you mean by a spotter.

MI. Hubbard. All right, sir.

The operational cycle, the people in the field get a

requirement that has been generated at the national level, they

want to know something about a country. It gets down to the

field. Now, we take it and say, all right, who has got access,

who can get it. Well, most of us have spotters. We have

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recruited them because of thel Involvement In community

activities, in a specific, group, Darnell because he was very

pro-American, very anti-Castro, quite vocal on it, in Puerto

Rico because he had a Cuban wife. I broached him cold and

said, hey, look, I represent U.S. intelligence. With your

connections I might have occasion to call on you, you know,

he signed a secrecy agreement, the whole works, and was quite

proud of his periphery involvement.

And he was the one that put me in contact with the Second

Front, and said, hey, I have heard some rumors about a frogman

action where the man was sucked up into the belly of the ship.

So he is the one that put me in contact with the Second

Front.

Senator Schweiker. And he would have had contact occasion-

ally with Veciana, or he might have.

Mr. Hubbard. He might have.

Senator Schweiker.

: You are not saying he did.

MI. Hubbard. No.

Senator Schweiker. How about in terms of peopic you

worked with in your operation?

Would Bill Pauley have played any role, William Paule,

former ambassador?

Mr. Hubbard. No.

Senator Schweiker. And a sugar owner from Havana who was

in Miami?

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Mr. Hubbard. Not in myrole, no

Senator Schweiker. what about Jullo Lobo, 1-o-b-o?

Mr. Hubbard.. I heard the name mentioned around' the

Miami station.

Senator Schweiker. But notdealings directly.

MI. Hubbard. I personally had no contact.

S

Senator Schweiker. And a Robert Brown, who I believe was

working with Intelligence, might have been Army Intelligence

at that time.

Mr. Hubbard. No. If it is his true name, I possibly did

not know him.

Senator Schweiker. Now, there was a Samuel Kail,

K-a-i-1, who I believe was an Army attache.

Mr. Hubbard. Havana.

Senator Schweiker. What can you tell us about him?

Mr. Hubbard.

Very little: I met the man once. He was

coming out when I was coming in. He had a reputation of being

a real whoeler-dealer, got a lot of things accomplished, but

I personally never served with him, for him, or no subsequent

meeting.

Senator Schweiker. In terns of setting up contacts,

might he have set up some contacts, say, with Alpha 66 before

you arrived in August of '62?

Mr. Hubbard. Sir, if he was in my role, he had an obl..i.

to organize a stay-behind net, and he very possibly did.

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Senator Schwelker Excuse me a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubbard. You have a man working in the Department of

Justice who was Kail's assistant at that time.

Mx. Epstein., Who was that?

Mr. Hubbard. Ralph Gowan, G-o-w-a-n.

Senator Schweiker. And his first name?

Mr. Hubbard. Ralph.

Mr. Epstein.

What did he do at the Department of

Justice?

Mr. Hubbard. I think he is in Narcotics and Dangerous

Drugs.

Senator Schweiker. He was assistant to Kail?

lix. Hubbard. He was a sergeant, but he was his right hand

man.

Senator Schweiker.

In?

Mr. Hubbard. In lavana.

Senator Schweiker. At the embassy.

So he was his right arm you say?

Hr. Hubbard. He was a stabilizing influence on the Color.

as I understand it.

Senator Schweiker. What kind of -- would Colonel Kail

in his duties at the Havana desk or assignment there have

been

somewhat similar to the kinds of things you were doiny?

Mr. Hubbard. Sir, I don't know. I have never been invuivi

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In the attache system.

Senator Schweiker.

Would part of their job be to feed -

Mr. Hubbard. They would spot.

Senator Schweiker.

For you folks?

Mr. Hubbard. And I am sure he knew, the handwriting

was on the wall there, at that time, prior to Castro's takeover,

and I imagine he was quite busy attempting to organize a

stay-behind net, or at least spot people who could later be

contacted.

Senator Schweiker. Did you ever hear of a Cuban intelli-

gence agent by the name of Raul Diaz, D-i-a-z?

Mr. Hubbard. Sir, that is a fairly common combination.

Sanator Schweiker, It doesn't ring any particular

bells as far as any activities or work you had?

Mr. Hubbard. Sir, I heard that there was one by that

name in the Second Front that was allegedly a double agent of

Castro's .

Senator. Schweiker. In any of your work that you were

carrying on at that time, had you ever directly or indirecti:

cone in contact with Lee Harvey Oswald to your, knowledge, priu

to the assassination, in any wa?

Mr. Hubbard. No.

Senator Schweiker. Did you ever hear any of your Cuba.

friends talk of any contact thuy might have had with lee

Harvay Oswald, or sources?

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Mr. Hubbard,

The Miami communIty was swarming with all

Kinds of characters in those days.

So yes; there as Americans

in contact, some of them willing to join up; and the soldier

of fortune, anti-Communists. There were any number of Americans

down there attempting to join these groups!

•No, so, far as

the name, no.:

Senator Schweiker. If the photograph there is of Mr.

Darnell -- I'm not saying it is, but if it is, would the

kind of contacts Darnell had be more with, you than with the

station chief, Watlington, in Miami?

Mr. Hubbard. As far as I know, he would have no

contact with Watlington, since he was in Puerto Rico.

Senator Schweiker. I see. He was stationed out of --

where was he living at the time?

Mr. Hubbard. In San Juan.

Senator Schweiker. Okay. So he primarily would have been

under your jurisdiction at that time.

MI. Hubbard. Yes, sir.

Senator Schweiker. In fact, you recruited him initiall;.

Mr. lubbard. (dods in the affirmative.)

Senator Schweiker. Did he speak Spanish?

Mr. Hubbard. Yes, fluently.

Mr. Epstein. Do we have the name of this company on the

record?

Senator Schweiker. Yes, Lykes Steamship Line, and they

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were operating out of where?

Mr. Hubbard: Out of Texas, Calveston, I think, Galveston

or Houston. It is a large steamship line.

Senator Schweiker. What about his political - not his

political philosophy but his general outlook?:

Mr. Hubbard. Quite pro-American,, vory American, very proud

of it. He insisted on flying the flag off the balcony every

day on the compahy, grounds. He had four or five flagpoles.

As I recall, he was declared essential as a ship's captain

during World War II, even though he had a Naval conmission, and

he missed the war and he felt bad about it, even though he

made the Murmansk run and things like that.

Senator Schweiker. Well, he was out of the Navy.

Mr. Hubbard. He never served.

He held a commission but

he never served.

Senator Schweiker. When you said a beach captain, I

used to be in the Navy, and I forget what that mdans.

Mr. lubbara. Well, he was no longer on a vessel. He was

onshore.

Senator Schweiker. But he had

never had an active duty

assignment.

Mr. Hubbard. Not to my knowledge.

Senator Schweiker. He had a Rescrve conmission.

Mr. Hubbard. As I understand it, he heid a Reserve

Conmission.

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Senator Schwelker.

Do you know how he, felt about Prefident

Kennedy at the time, what his feelings were?

Mr. Hubbard. Well, because of his close involvement with

the Cuban situation, he was quite disappointed when the United

States policy would not support the guerilla movements anymore,

and especially when they had to police them up out of the

Caribbean. I was burned

on. He thought we were definitely on

the wrong track.

Mr. Epstein. How were you burned on that? llow were

you personally burned on that?

Mr. Hubbard. Because I was the only American who had been

to all of the base camps, and it had to come from me.

MI. Epstein. So you were the guy that was

giving the

message.

Mr. Hubbatd. I was the guy

that drew the map for

President Kennedy, Colonel Boydt, and I believe Mr. McCone

briefed President Kennedy, or General Fitch, as

I recall, with

the ACSI, and they took my map in and President Kennedy was

quite happy. Mr. McCone, I believe it was Mr. McCone col-

gratulated the Army ACSI, said he wisheu it had been one v:

his men as opposed to Army that had that degree of involveinc

MI. Epstein. I don't understand the may.

Mr. Hubbard. I drew tne map of all of the base camps :.:

the Second Front of the Escambray. That's the way the Dr:

Navy knew exactly where to go and pick up these people art.

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destroy the base camps and the equipment.

Mr. Johnston. What month of '63 Ras this?

Mr. Hubbard. I have been searching --

Mr. Johnston. Summer, early fall?

Mr. Hubbard. As I recall, I returned to Puerto Rico

froma trip. I returned on Thanksgiving day of 1963. That is

when I know it and so did all of the people around me that

I was burned and had to get out of there.

Mr. Epstein. Excuse my ignorance on this, but what I

understand you are saying is that some point a requirement was

levied on you to draw a map of where all the base camps were

that the Cuban exiles were operating

out of.

Mr. Hubbard. Yes.

Mr. Epstein. That your understanding is that that map

was supplied to the British?

Mr. Hubbard. It had to be because they knew exactly

where to go from the Bahamas.

Mr. Epstein.

And that thereafter the British, upon: si

request of the American government, destroyed all the base

camps?

Mr. Hubbard. The British were involved. I don't know it

the United States Navy or Coast Guard

was involved. I was in

the process of evacuating my family and keeping them hidden.

Mr. Esstein. And that happened in November of '63?

Mr. Hubbard. November or early December of '63.

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-Mr

Epstein Can you relate it in time to whether it was

prior or subsequent to the President's assassination?

Mr: Hubbard. No.

Mr. Epstein. You say you left. Puerto Rico on Thanksgiving

eve 2

Mr. Hubbard. No, I returned to Puerto Rico on Thanksgiving

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Mr. Epstein. From?

Nr. Hubbard. From making one of these tours with the

Second Front out to their base camps. I spent a week or ten

days out on that trip. I was the only one they had ever

taken out.

Mr. Epstein. This was after the base camps have been

destroyea?

Mr. Hubbard. No.

Mr. Epstein. This was before.

Mr. Hubbard. When I came back, the word was down that

President Kennedy had decided not only would they not support

then, he wanted the means destroyed from which they were

mounting these raids.

Mr. Epstein. From where did you hear that? How did you

learn that?

Mr. Hubbard. Well, that was -- everything we got,

operational, come by teletype out of ACSI, so I was given a

requirement, draw a map.

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Senator Schweiker. How many base camps were there, roughly?

Mr. Hubbard. The major base camp, it is a small island

off of Andros on the west side that was the main camp. Then

there were six subordinate, were not manned, but they had

supplies and caches set up on the northern coast of Cuba.

Senator Schweiker. Then did our Navy destroy them? I

missed part of that.

Mr. Hubbard. As I recall, our Navy did not. I think the

United States requested the British because it was in the

Bahamian area, the British Navy responsibility.

Senator Schweiker. Now, you presented a map, and what did

McCone say?

I missed

that part.

Mr: Hubbard. Mr. McCone turned to - I believe General

Fitch was the Army ACSI. lle turned to him and congratulated

him on this and said that I wish that one of my men had

produced this instead of the Army:

Senator Schweiker. For having this kind of a map kind os

thing?

Mr. Hubbard. For having the degree of contact and estab

lishing the confidence where they would take me. Evidently his

people had not received that degree of rapport after the Bay oi

Pigs.

Senator Schweiker. And you're not sure when that meetiny

with McCone occurrea, roughly?

Mr. Hubbard. Well, it was in President Kennedy's office,

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so it wasiin the late fall of 63.

Senator Schweiker. So obviously September or October of

163 1t had to be.

Mr. Hubbard. Well, seaons have no meanings to me in

Puerto Rico. I am lost without my seasons.

Senator Schweiker. But you would say late fall of 63.

Mr. Hubbard. Yes, sir, Ild say laterfall of 163.

Senator Schweiker. You were in the President's office?

Mr. Hubbard. No, sir, I was advised of this subsequent

to the meeting.

Senator Schweiker. And who was there again, General Fitch?

Mr. Hubbard. General Fitch. Well, now, gentlemen, this

has been several years, but I believe it was General Fitch,

the Army ACSI, Colonel Boydt, the Commander of Detachment A,

and Mr. McCone, and I was told that President Kennedy and the

Attorney General Kennedy were present,

the only

two present

when this was briefed to the president, yes, we did have our

map showing these locations.

Senator Schweiker. And then they acted on that, and

you're not sure exactly when that came off, but as I recall

there was a frame, and they were raiding Cuban camps in this

country.

Mr. Hubbard, Yes, sii, and also off the coast of Mexico.

Senator Schweiker. Wouldn't a person like Darnell have

been very upset about something like that I think?

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Mr. Hubbard. Oh, he was; he was upset.

Senator Schweiker. Well, I guess the Cubans would be.

Mr. Hubbard. Well, a lot of Americans that had Cuban

ties were.

Mr. Epstein. Who told you about the meeting?

Mr. Hubbard. About what meeting?

Mr. Epstein. In the President's office.

Mr. Hubbard. It would have come through Detachment A. I

dontt know whether Colonel Boydt told me, actually. I think

I received a teletype saying congratulations. President

happy. Or something like that.

Me. Epstein.

ANd then you left, or had to.

Mr. Hubbard. I was, as I say, burned. They gave me

staff job back at Fort Hollabird for a year to cool off.

Mr. Epstein. Have you had any contact with any of the

people you dealt with down there since leaving?

M. Mr. Hubbard. Well, on the American side, yes, in the

intelligence community.

Mr. Epstein. But none of the Cupans.

Mr. Hubbard, None of the Cubans, no.

Me. Johnston. Does William Burns look at all like this

picture?

Mr. Hubbard. No:

Mr. Johnston. Are these men tall?

Mr. Hubbard. Darnell is.

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Mr. Johnston. How tall is he?

Mr. Hubbard. Darnell and I were approximately the same

height and build.

Senator Schweiker. Your height is about what?

Mr. Hubbard. About 6'1".

Mr. Johnston. Was Darnell, would you describe him as

athletic looking?

Mr. Hubbard. On the lean side, yes.

Mr. Johnston. How about Burns?

Mr. Hubbard. No. He was approximately 5'10", 180,

190 pounds, British father, Cuban mother, the better features

of both. He is a very handsome man, well educated, was

educated in Englánd. As I

say, I do not recáll what position

be held first. He was Castro's Minister of Finance, and he

was also his ambassador to London, but I do not know what

seguence *

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that.

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Mr. Hubbard.: No, sir.

Mr. Johnston.

Did Darnell have access to Cuba before the

shutdown in 4961?

Mr. Hubbard. Yes. He represented Lykes in Cuba. They

moved their base of operations from Cuba to Puerto Rico

when Castro took over.

Mr. Johnston.

To your knowledge, did SNFE or Alpha

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66 have chapters around the United States?

Mr. Hubbard. xes. Alpha 66 had a large chapter in

Chicago. They were getting a lot of support from the Chicago

area, according to them.

Senator Schwelker Did they have one, do you recollect,

in Dallas?

Mr. Hubbard. I have not heard of it, sir, or 1f I

did

Senator Schweiker. And you said you are not sure or you

don't know where Me. Darnell is now, but at the time you worked

with him he was in Puerto Rico.

Mr. Hubbard. San Juan.

Senator Schweiker. The steamship company he worked for

was

headguartered.eitherrin Galveston:or Houston.

Mr: Hubbard.

Yes.

Senator Schweiker. Inithe course of when Darnell worked

for

you, was he on some kind of salary or retainer?

Mr. Hubbard. No, no.

Senator Schweiker: A Volunteer?

Mr. Hubbard. Take him out to dinner once in a while, buy

him a drink.

Sonator Schweiker.. THat was it?

Mr. Hubbard. Yes:

Senator Schweiker. So he wouldn't have been passing on

money to anybody in your behalf.

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Mr. Hubbard. No. There were no funds that transferred,

to the best of my knowledge, from the Puerto Rico station.

Senator Schweiker. Is it possible that at some later

point in time that Darnell might have been working for one

of the other agencies?

Mr. Hubbard. Possibly:

You see, we closed up the puerto

Rico station in just a matter of months after I pulled out.

In early '64, the Department of the Army closed out the

Puerto Rico station, and it was dormant for several years, and

then they re-established it.

Now, all of our coded assets, coded sources would have been

up for grabs to any intelligence community that wanted to

register operational interest in them.

Now, as late as three

years ago, I passed his name on to Navy intelligence as a

possible source for them to look up in Puerto Rico. Now,

whether they did, maybe he was under operational interest to

another agency and therefore could not gain access to him, I

don't know. I recommended that they contact him.

Mr. Epstein. Who in Navy intelligence did you deal with

three years ago, do you know?

Mr. Hubbard. This was the Navy rap in Defense Intelligence

Agency, Commander Huling, H-u-1-i-n-g, but I don't think he

took any action on it.

Mr. Epstein:

Why do you say that?

Mr. Hubbard. Because

I think he was getting ready to

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retire and didn't want to be. involved.

Mr. Epstein. You didn't hear anything more afterwards that

led you to believe -

Mr. Hubbard. No.

Mro Johnston. Did Burns and Darnell know each other?

Mr. Hubbard. I would think so from a previous association

in Cuba •

Mr. Johnston. Would you say they were close friends?

Mr. Hubbard. No.

Senator Schweiker. What would that association-have been

likely?

Mr. Hubbard, Social. As a general observation, the bette:

educated Cubans and the professional Cubans, when they left

Cuba, did not come to the United States, or did not come to

Miami. They went to Spain, Puerto Rico, South America.

We got

the cane cutters into Miami primarily. Your educated people,

those with money, we had quite a few of them come into Puerto

Rico and later really take over. Within a year they were

Presidents of firms and now Darnell, by virtue of being married

to a Cuban, by virtue of his positions with the Lykes Line,

both in Cuba and San Juan, I'm sure their paths have crossed.

Senator Schweiker... Anything else?

Mr. Johnston.

Were you in contact with Menoyo

in the fall of '63?

Me. Hubbard. Yes:

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Mr. Johnston. Did he tell you about a trip to Dallas he

made in October of '63?

Mr. Hubbard. He told me of a trip, he had been on a

fundraising tour, perhaps Dallas was one of them. I do not

remember. It is feasible or possible.

Mr. Johnston. After the assassination of president Kennedy,

did you have any occasion to talk with either Burns or Darnell

or Menoyo about it?

Mr. Hubbard. I would say that I saw all three of them

after that, and I imagine so because it was the topic of

conversation. I remember nothing significant about the

meetings.

Mr. Johnston. Do you know what the attitude of Burns or

Darnell was toward -

Mr. Hubbard. Well, most of them,were, you know, shocked

and in deep sympathy, wondering perhaps of newly appointed

President Johnston, whether he would support the Cubans, but

remember nothing significant.

Senator Schweiker. In your work in that period of

time, did you ever have occasion to go into Mexico City?

Mr. Hubbard. Yes, sir.

Senator Schweiker. On what basis would you do that?

Mr. Hubbard."

I think this was a lead through Darnell,

that a - this is rough

and off the top of my head -- I belie

it was a niece of his wife, married to a native-born

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Polish citizen, zepresenting Merck Chemical Corporation,

pharmaceutical house, who allegedly owned property that over-

looked the Soviet embassy, and I was sent down to take a look

at this property to see if we could establish listening

devices on their property into the Soviet embassy, and it was

a complete waterhole. When I arrived in Mexico City, they

aidn't live within two miles of the Russian embassy.

Senator Schweiker. The niece of his wife, married to -

Mr. Hubbard. As I recall, a Polish citizen or a native-born

Pole, but now what citizenship, I don't know.

Senator Schweiker. (Who worked for an American company?

Mr. Hubbard. No, Merix, as I recall, M-e-r-i-x. It was

a pharmaceutical -

Senator Schweiker. Merck, Merck Sharp and Dome?

Mr. Hubbard. Yes.

Senator Schweiker. You don't recall that name, do you?

Mr. Hubbard.

You say all the records have been

destroyed, the dossiers?

Mr. Johnston. The dossiers haven't but the operational

recoräs have.

Mr. Hubbard.'

Well, if you had Darnell's dossier

Senator Schweiker.

Who would have it?

Mr. Hubbard. I say if it is still maintained.

Senator Schweiker. Who would maintain it, Army?

Mr. Hubbard.

Well, see, they even disbanded the old

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Detachment A. Now, what happened to the records when they

disbanded I have no idea.

Mr. Epstein. What was Detachment A's mission?

Mr. Hubbard. To respond to national level requirements as

to local commanders' requirements. We responded to Presidential,

Congressional and national level decisions of the department

heads, Department of the Navy, Army and Air Force.

Mr. Epstein. Was there an overall mission that you had

in Puerto Rico?

Mr. Hubbard. I am sure we had a mission statement, but

that has been too many years ago.

Mr. Epstein.

Was there a specific mission that you had with

respect to Cuba?

Mr. Hubbard. All right, specifically, yes. We had our

essential elements of information that we had to respond to

these requirements, the one I mentioned on the frogman, naturally

anything pertaining to missiles. We had a blanket type

publication, that is the Operation Treasure lunt, and this

was a publication in which items of interest from Communist

Bloc in the line of hardware, anything from a.

small arms

round to a MIG or Soviet vessels were wanted. This was one

of the entres I used with the Cubans... If you can obtain

this item, we are prepared, and it was specified in the

Treasure Hunt book, how much we could pay. I could give you

$10,000 for this, or a million dollars for that or whatever.

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field.

Mx. Epstein. Okay. Now, those two missions obviously

related to e-

* Hubbard. Any Communist Bloc.

Mr. Epstein. Intelligence collection.

Now, was there any counterintelligance operation that

was encompassed by your operation?

Me. Hubbard. No, we came up with a very elaborate

assassination plan on Castro, but I understand that ran around

the Pentagon for about three days, put gas in the air conditioning

system, and I had a man to do that, but they didn't want to

do that.

Me. Epstein. Was that an assignment levied by headquarter$?

Mr. Hubbard. No, I just had one of these Cubans that

had come out long enough to be recruited, and went back in,

and he worked around the headguarters building as an air

conditioning repairman. The same thing on the Soviet torpedo

boats. I had the opportunity to pick up one of those in

respone to this Treasure Hunt. I sent this in, and I said

I only have really a few questions. If I can get it it would

require some degrce of risk, but what do I do with the Russian

crew. Do I drop them overboard, kill them, do you want to maké

them prisoners, do I bring the boat into Miami harbord, or

do I sink it or what?

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Mr. Epstein. With respect to the assassination issue, the

air conditioning, was this a plan that was submitted to head-

quarters from your station?

Mr. Hubbard. I submitted it. I said, look, I have this

man that says he can do it. Do you want to follow through on

it? And they said no.

Mr. Epstein. Did any more happen than that, on your

submission?

Mr. Hubbard. No. As Irrecall, my return message was no,

weeare not in the assassination business, to forget it.

Mr. Epstein. And that was the last you heard of it.

Mr. Hubbard. Well, I did, I forgot it.

Mr. Epstein. What was there within your overall mission

in Puerto Rico with respect to Cuba that would have led you

to believe that a proposal hike that might have been found

acceptable?

Mr. Hubbard. Well, Castro is the bad guy. As I say, I

took this on myself to

send this in. It was not generated at

this level. I said, look, I've got this guy that says he

can do it if anybody is interested, and they came back, no,

we are not in the assassination business, forget it.

Mr. Epstein. Do you know whether any other Agency

ever expressed an interest in that guy?

Mr. Hubward. Not that I am aware of.

Senator Schweiker. This niece of Mr. Darnell's wife,

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married to a Polish citizen who worked for Merck and Company

and lived near the which embassy?

Mr. Hubbard. No. He reportedly lived near it. When I

got there I found out they did not, therefore denied us this

access that had been envisioned. The Agency expressed an

interest.in being able to set up a listening device.

senator Schwelker. So it didn't work out,

Mx. Hubbard. No. It was a complete flasco.

Senator Schweiker. The name there wouldn't have been

Charles Pack, was it?

Mr. Hubbard. No, it was definitely a Polish name.

Mr. Epstein. Are you aware of any assassination plans

involving Castro that were run by the Army?

Mr. Hubbard. No, personally I am not.

Mr. Epstein. Were you aware of any that were planned

of attempted by anycof the anti-Castro Cubans that you dealt

with of had contact with, aapart from being facilitated by the

Army?

Mr. Hubbard. Well, that was through the second front

of the Escambray that we came up with the, this guy, the

air conditioning repairman.

Now, they wanted to go ahead and

do it. I said, well, we cannot help you.

Nr. Epstein. Do you know whether they went ahead and

tried?

Mr. Hubbard. They couldn't come up with a suitable poison

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the last I heard.

Mr. Epstein.

Were there any other similar plans?

Mr. Hubbard. Oh, the Cubans were always talking, you know,

they're going to try to shoot him, blow him up with minesaand

so forth, but it was 99 percent talk.

Mr. Epstein. Was this the only occasion on which the

Cubans solicited your help or support on an assassination?

Mr. Hubbard. On an assassination, yes.

Senator Schweiker. If we were to request the personnel

record of Darnell, where would we best go about it, in view

of the thing beint discontinued?

What would your recommendation be?

MI. Hubbard. I would start at the present Army ACSI's

office and ask what happened to the old United States Army

Field Activities Command? You see, the intelligence organiza-

tions changed names, and the last official designation was the

United States Army Field Activities Command, and they were

headquartered in the Hoffman Building.

Senator Schweiker. The Hoffman, ll-o-f-f---

Mr. Hubbard. Right here in Washington.

Senator Schweiker:

Now, in looking

at that, how might

It have been broken down, under what kind of a filing system?

I know you are just guessing.

Mr. Hubbard. No, becarse sources had numbers and

alphabetical designation. Puerto Rico was DUP, the letter

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designation. Now, his code number I haven't the slightest.

Senator Schweiker. DUP?

Mr. Hubbard. And then some number.

Senator Schweiker. And then a number for his numerical

designation.

Mr. Hubbard. And don't be surprised if somebody laughs

because that has been so many years ago, they have changed

coding systems, but they should have a record someplace.

Senator Schweiker. And the DUP was the coding system for

Mr. Hubbard. For the Puerto Rican station.

Senator Schweiker. Anything else?

Mr. Johnston. Yes.

When this one Cuban wanted to assassinate Castro and you

were told not to, did you then put him in contact with burns?

ME. Hubbard. No.

Mr. Johnston. Did you suggest that he contact Burns?

Mr. Hubbard. No. I tried to keep Burns compartmented.

Because of his background, he was much more intelligence. See,

the average intelligence source is pretty low level, let's

face it, and Burns wasoone of the better educated, and I kept

him compartmented. I was using him more against Haiti than

I was against Cuba. He had access into Haiti.

Senator Schweiker.: What kind of job did Veciano do for

you as you recollect? Was it good, bad --

Mr. Hubbard. Sir, I never lad any dealings with him

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other, than that one introduction.

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Senator Schwelker. I see:

So it might have been more

through Darnell, really.

Mr. Hubbard. No, I would say through our Miami station,

1s colonel Watlington, that was the commander, and you'd have

to go that route to find out about Alpha 66. As I recall, the

early days, Detachment A, Army, had contact with Veciana,

and CIA assumed interest. They just took it over, lock,

stock and barrel, and told Army to back off.

Now, please, don't pin me down, buttthat's my understanding

of what happened.

Mr. Johnston.

Were you ever contacted by Me. Lucey of

CIA asking for the individual you had contact with in

Puerto Rico?

Mr. Hubbard.

Possibly, when I returned there were

numerous calls and trips to Washington from Hollabird for

various reasons. Very possibly. The name does not ring

a bell.

Mr. Johnston. Let me ask you one final question.

Have you ever heard of a businessman named George

DeMorenschildt in the Dominican Republic, oil interests?

Mr. Hubbard. No.

Mr. Johnston, Were either Darnell or Burns in any way

tied into the oil business in the Gulf?

Mr. Hubbard. Well, Darnell possibly through his position

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other than that one introduction.

Senator Schweiker.

I see. So it might have been more

through Darnell, really.

Mr. Hubbard. No, I would say through our Miami station,

is Colonel Watlington, that was the commander, and you'd have

to go that route to find out about Alpha 66. As I recall, the

early days, Detachment A, Army, had contact with Veciana,

and CIA assumed interest. They just took it over, lock,

stock and barrel, and told Army to back off.

Now, please, don't pin me down, buttthat's my understanding

of what happened.

Mr. Johnston. Were you ever contacted by Mr. Lucey of

CIA asking for the individual you had contact with in

Puerto Rico?

Mr. Hubbard. Possibly, when I returned there were

numerous calls and trips to Washington from Hollabira for

various reasons. Very possibly.. The name does not ring

a bell:

Mr.: Johnston:

Let me ask you one final question.

Have you ever heard of a businessman named George

DeMorenschildt in the Dominican Republic, oil interests?

Mr. Hubbard. No.

Mr. Johnston. Were either Darnell or Burns in any way

tied into the oil business in the Gulf?

Mr. Hubbard. Well, Darnell possibly through his position

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in the shipping field. Burns, Burns was the man with

considerable means and was making investments. Darnell had

only his income from his -- he was a common working man, really,

had no outside source of income. Burns was quite a wealthy

man.

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Mr. Epstein. You were still stationed in Puerto Rico at

the time of the assassination.

Mr. Hubbard. Yes.

Mr. Epstein. Do you recall any requirements or assignments

being levied on your operation at that time for information

or investigations for intelligence relating to the assassinatio=

of President Kennedy?

Mr. Hubbard. No, I do not recall.

Mr. Epstein. What I had in mind specifically was do you

recall ever being requested or instructed to contact any of

your assets or sources to determine whether or not, A, they

had apy information bearing on Cuban Government responsibility

for the assassination, or B, Cuban exile responsibility for

the assassination.

Mr. Hubbard.. I do not recall that requirement being

levied. It is possible, but no, I do not recall it.

Mr. Epstein. Did any information ever come to your

attention indicating either the Cuban Government's responsi-

bility for the assassination or the responsibility of Cuban

exiles, or Cuban exile groups for the assassination of Presiden

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Kennedy?

Mr. Hubbard. No.

Senator Schweiker. I guess that is all we have.

Colonel, we thank you very much for coming, and we hope

we did not disrupt your personal life too much.

Mr. Hubbard. You got me off a tractor, sir.

(Whereupon, at 3:12 o'clock p.m. the interview in the

above-entitled matter was concluded.)

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