Originator: HSCA
From: HIDALGO, BALMES NIEUES JR.
Document date: 8/10/78
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Date:

10/19/20

Agency Information

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER:

180-10131-10336

RECORD SERIES:

SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 014734

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: HSCA

FROM:

[Restricted]

TO :

TITLE:

DATE: 08/10/1978

PAGES:

46

SUBJECTS :

BAY OF PIGS

BISHOP, MAURICE

[Restricted]

DURAN, SYLVIA

MEXICO CITY

CIA, METHODOLOGY

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret

RESTRICTIONS: 3

CURRENT STATUS:

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 02/18/1997

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS: Box 8

y9.1

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Scenograghic Transcript O:

HEARINGS

Beiore. The

John F. Kennedy Subcommittee

TOP SECRET

SELECT COMMITTEE O% ASSASSIYATIOAS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

014734

TESTIMONY OF BALMES NIVES HIDALGO, JR.

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Washington. D.C.

August 10, 1978

Alderson Regarting Comgany, Inc.

Official Ripotes

300 Sevezia Se. S. W. Washington. o. C.

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

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house of Representatives

Sibcommittee on the Assassination of

President John E. Kennedy of the

Select Committee on Assassinations

washington, D. C.

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Testimony of Balmes Nieves Hidalgo, JI.

August 10, 1978

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TESTIMONY OF BALMES NIEVES HIDALGO, JR.

THURSDAY, AUGUST 10, 1978

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House of Representatives,

Subcommittee on the Assassination

of President John F. Kennedy

of the Select Committee on

Assassinations,

Washington, D. C.

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The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:46 p.m., in

room 340, Cannon House Office Building, the Hon. Richardson

Preyer (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Preyer, Burke, Dodd and Fithian.

Staff members present: E. Berning, M. Goldsmith, C. Berk,

W. A. Cross, 0. Wagner, D. Hardway, J. Conzelman and C. Fenton.

Mrs. Burke (presiding). The subcommittee will please come

to order.

The Chair recognizes Elizabeth Berning to name those offi-

cially designated to be on the subcommittee pursuant to the

Committee Rule 12.6.

Miss Berning. MIs. Burke, you, Mr. Preyer, Mr. Dodd and

Mr. Thone are regular members of the Kennedy Subcommittee.

MI. Fithian will be substituting for Mi. Dodd.

Mrs. Burke. Let the record

show that there were three

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members present. There are two members who are present who

are still remaining and the Chair will swear the witness.

Will the witness state his name, please.

MI. Hidalgo. Balmes Nieves Hidalgo, JI.

Mrs. Burke. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you

give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hidalgo. I do.

Mrs. Burke. The hearing is in closed session pursuant to

the vote that was taken before the recess and that vote still

remains and the hearing is in closed session. If there is

anyone in the room who is not a member of the staff or an

attorney for the witness, they will leave.

Let the record show that the committee is in closed

session.

I would like to read a brief statement concerning the

subject of the investigation. This committee is operating

under the mandate of House Resolution 222 to conduct a full and

complete investigation and study into the circumstances surround-

ing the assassination and death of President John F. Kennedy,

including determining whether the existing laws of the United

States concerning the protection of the President and investi-

gatory jurisdiction and capability of agencies and departments

are adequate in their provisions and enforcement and whether

there was full disclosure of evidence and information among

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i DUNET.

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agencies and departments of the United States Government and

whether any evidence of information not in the possession of

an agency or department would have been of assistance in

investigating the assassination and why such information was

not provided or collected by that agency or department and to

make recommendations to the House if the committee deems it

appropriate for the amendment of existing legislation or the

enactment of new legislation.

This is the mandate of the committee.

You may be seated, Mr. Hidalgo.

Would your counsel state his name.

Mr. Gaines. Stanley H. Gaines, 150 Little Falls Street,

Falls Church, Virginia.

Mrs. Burke. The staff will proceed to interrogate.

MI. Goldsmith. Thank you.

Mrs. Burke, prior to the beginning of this hearing Mr.

Gaines asked me if he might make a brief statement and I

indicated to him I had no problem with that.

Mrs. Burke. Certainly.

MI. Gaines. I would like to assure this distinguished

committee that Mr. Hidalgo has been apprised of the charter

of the committee, of the seriousness of the committee's charter

and the scope of it which is considerably broad and intends to

answer all relevant questions to the best of his recollection.

I would simply like to impress on the committee, although

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IUF DEGALI

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I recognize it may be carrying coals to New Castle, that a

man who has spent many years as an officer in the Central

Intelligence Agency has a conditioned reluctance to disclose

methods notwithstanding the acknowledged entitlement of this

committee to receive such information if the committee deems

the information pertinent but I raise this point only by way

of appealing to the committee as we may from time to time, if

considered necessary, to carefully weigh the pertinence or

relevance of indispensability of names of persons who may have

risked life or limb or liberty or careers in the service of

the United States. If that information is deemed relevant,

there is no question that it will be provided if we are called

but there may be cases where the committee feels that although

it would be entitled to the information it can do without it

and in such cases we would request that the committee forego

the identification of persons.

That includes the identity of the witness himself. It

would be tragic or could be tragic if the fact were disclosed

to the press, for example, that he appeared before this com-

mittee in the capacity of a witness.

Finally, only by way of underscoring what I have said and

notwithstanding Acting Director Carlucci's letter to the

committee, this officer, like others in his category, feels a

personal fiduciary responsibility toward persons whom he

induced to work in a clandestine capacity for the United States

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Government and whose efforts in that regard he directed which

makes it additionally difficult, if not painful, for him to

disclose who those persons were, particularly if some of them

are still in hostile territory.

Having said that, there are no reservations on MI.

Hidalgo's part to answer any questions, save of course his

privilege of self-incrimination if required.

That is all.

Mrs. Burke. Thank you very much.

Counsel may proceed.

TESTIMONY OF BAIMES NIEVES HIDALGO, JI.

Mr. Goldsmith. For the record would you please state your

name and address.

Mr. Hidalgo. Balmes Nieves Hidalgo, JI., 403 Silver Rock

Road, Rockville, Maryland.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Hidalgo, do you also go by the name of

Barney Balmes Hidalgo?

MI. Hidalgo. Barney is a childhood name and so much easier

to pronounce rather than Balmes and nearly everyone, including

relatives, calls me Barney.

Mr. Goldsmith. I take it the answer to my question is yes.

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you.

Is it true that you have been employed by the CIA?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

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do to it don

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Mr. Goldsmith. For how many years were you affiliated

with the CIA?

Mr. Hidalgo. Eighteen.

Mr. Goldsmith. What years were those, sir?

MI. Hidalgo. 1952 through 1958. I am sorry.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you like to clarify that?

MI. Hidalgo. Yes, that does not make sense. You must

understand there are going to be lapses here. 1952 through

1970. February of 1952 to February of 1970. Thank you.

Mr. Goldsmith. In what general capacity did you work for

the CIA?

MI. Hidalgo. I was an intelligence agent.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now as an intelligence agent for the CIA

were you required to sign the secrecy oath?

MI. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. In that regard I would like you at this

time to have an opportunity to read JFK Exhibit No. 94.

For the record that is the release letter of 23 March 1978

issued by Acting Director Carlucci to Chairman Stokes.

MI. Hidalgo.

Yes, sir, I am aware of it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you had a chance to examine that

exhibit?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand it?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Hidalgo, on July 28, 1978, were you

interviewed by two staff employees of the Select Committee on

Assassinations?

Mr. Hidalgo. It was in July of 1978, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Hardway who is sitting on my left and

Mr. Berk who is sitting on my right.

Mr. Hidalgo. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Subsequent to that interview did you have

any discussion with any employee of the CIA concerning what you!

told Mr. Berk and Mr. Hardway?

Mr. Hidalgo. Concerning what I told Mr. Berk and Mr.

Hardway, no, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. So no one from the CIA, I take it, dis-

cussed the substance of your discussion with Mr. Berk and Mr.

Hardway.

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is that correct?

Mr. Hidalgo. May I say they are no longer the people I

talked to because we are still friends and I see them occa-

sionally. They are not now with the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand.

Has anyone from the agency discussed with you the substance

of your testimony that you are about to give here today?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now you indicated that you worked as an

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intelligence agent for the CIA. Is there a difference between

a case officer and an intelligence agent?

MI. Hidalgo. Not in my meaning of the word, no, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. Could you give the committee some back-

ground in your particular areas of expertise as an intelligence

agent?

Mr. Hidalgo. Well, general collection of information,

interrogation of suspected agents of foreign countries, methods

of acquiring information by many means, counterintelligence was

the fourth really.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you generally involved in clandestine

activities?

Mr. Ridalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to focus now on the period

1960 through 1964 and I ask you to give the committee a summary

of the assignments that you had during that period.

Mr. Hidalgo. Well, from 1960 through 1964 I was assigned

to the division having to do with Cuba in general and the things

that were going on at that time between Cuba and the world in

general.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was that task force l that you were working

with?

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Mr. Hidalgo. I don't recall the name of it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work for a program referred

to as the Durable Assets Program?

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MI. Hidalgo. I don't recall working for that, no. I may

have, I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work with the JM wave station

in Miami?

MI. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you indicate to the committee where

specifically you were located during these assignments during

the period from 1960 to 1964?

Mr. Hidalgo. In Washington, Miami, New York City,

Philadelphia, New Orleans, Mexico, Guatemala, Salvador. I

believe I have covered them. If I left anything out, I don't

mean to. Puerto Rico.

Excuse me. There is an island a few miles off from

Puerto Rico and actually my work was not in Puerto Rico, it

was on this island.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Now you indicated you spent some

time in Washington, D. C. Do you recall what time period you

spent in Washington, D. C.?

Mr. Hidalgo. Well, Washington, D. C., was my official

station.

Mr. Goldsmith. During that entire period?

Mr. Hidalgo.

Yes, sir. The others were tys.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is a TDY?

Mr. Hidalgo. Temporary duty stations.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the CIA had a domestic

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exploitation

section?

Mr. Hidalgo. Domestic --

Mr. Goldsmith. Exploitation section during the period that

you were working for it.

Mr. Hidalgo. Not by that name. If you tell me what --

MI. Goldsmith. Specifically by that name, do you know

whether the agency had such a unit?

Mr. Hidalgo. I am not quite aware of it. I may know it

by some other name is what I am trying to say.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now you indicated a moment ago that you

spent some time in Mexico during the period 1960 through 1964.

Approximately how many times did you visit Mexico for the

agency?

Mr. Hidalgo. I am trying to recall this as best I can.

When the staff interviewed me I made the remark that I had been

there in 1964 and since then my wife corrected me on that. She

said, "You were not there, we were on our honeymoon in 1964 so

yu were not in Mexico."

So it must have been 1961 and/or 1962,

I don't recall 1963 but 1961 and 1962 are the dates that really

now come to mind. Since then let me say I have been raking my

mind, going over in my mind everything and everything that I

did because I do want to cooperate with you.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand.

Now what was the purpose of the trip to Mexico in 1961?

MI. Hidalgo. All the trips that I took to Mexico were in

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connection with an operation I had going against the Communist

Party in Mexico.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible, sir, that you were also

in Mexico in 19633

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't recall it now but like I say it has

been quite a few years ago.

Mr. Gaines. Counsel, may I simply point out to the

committee members what I think counsel knows, that Mr. Hidalgo

suffered a major stroke in 1958 and a minor one in 1964 and

that that may account for what would appear to be an unusual

lapse of memory. There are many things that he just cannot

remember or cannot remember when asked but there is no inten-

tion to evade any of your questions..

MI. Preyer. Thank you.

Counsel.

Mr. Goldsmith, Perhaps at this time I might ask, Mr.

Hidalgo, how old are you?

Mr. Hidalgo. I am 59 years old.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Mr. Hidalgo, have you ever examined your

office personnel file?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now you have indicated you were involved

in an operation against the Communist Party in Mexico.

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith, Were you also involved in any operations

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against the Cuban government in Mexico?

Mr. Hidalgo. Not in Mexico, no, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. When you were in Mexico on these opera-

tions against the Communist Party, was the local CIA station

to your knowledge aware of your presence in Mexico?

Mr. Hidalgo. YEs, sir. I had the contact.

Mr. Goldsmith. So someone at the Mexico City station knew

you?

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Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, knew that I was there.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall what the cryptonym was of

the operation against the Communist Party in Mexico?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir, I really don't.

Mr. Goldsmith. I believe you have indicated that to the

best of your recollection you were in Mexico two times during

this period.

Mr. Hidalgo. Two, perhaps three.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was the purpose of your visit each time

with regard to this operation against the Communist Party?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. Mr. Hidalgo, without going into sources

or methods, I would like you to give just some general details

on this operation.

Mr. Hidalgo. The operation, as I say, took a couple of

visits to set up and culminated with my gathering every bit of

information from all of the files of the Mexican Communist

Party -- I mean all of the original files of the Mexican

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Communist Party and other properties.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you work with any other individuals

on this project?

Mr. Hidalgo. I had this contact who assisted me in

satting up what we called a safehouse and put me in touch with

certain members of the Mexican police that assisted me in my

job.

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Mr. Goldsmith. So there was some involvement with the

Mexican police in part, is that correct?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Just assisting you in general terms?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And your local contact, was he from the

Mexico City station?

Mr. Hidalgo. He was in Mexico City, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Well, the CIA officer is what I am asking

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Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir. Let me add I was under unofficiall

cover, I was not there using my

true name, so therefore this

one contact knew I was there and arranged things for me.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall which name you were using

at that time?

Mr. Hidalgo. You mean to him or in my official capacity?

Mr. Goldsmith, Whatever name you were using in your

unofficial cover in Mexico.

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Mr. Hidalgo. It could have been Bernard. It could have

been Benny. It could have been -- I used so many. I am sorry,

I don't know. If someone called me and said, "What is your

name?" and I said Bernard, I would say that was your first

name. I would not --

Mr. Goldsmith. Again in general terms was this operation

a success?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were the materials that you obtained

given to anyone else at the CIA?.

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was the material given to an individual

in Mexico City?

MI. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. So was it an individual at the CIA head-

quarters?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Hidalgo, were you ever involved in any

operations in Mexico City aimed at the Cuban embassy or consulate?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you were in Mexico City were you

aware of the photo and telephonic surveillance operations which

the Mexico City station had against the Cuban and Soviet embassy

and consulate?

Mr. Hidalgo. I knew there was one but I did not know

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where it was located.

MI. Goldsmith. Do you know a woman named Sylvia Duran?

Mr. Hidalgo. Sylvia Duran. The name is familiar to me,

very familiar in hearing, but that is as far as I can go, I

mean truthfully.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall in your interview with Mr.

Berk and MI. Hardway when asked whether you used Sylvia Duran

your response was, "Sure do know her but I sure don't want to

discuss it"?

Mr. Hidalgo. Okay. I sure do know of her is what I

should have said. Now I am discussing it as to where I heard

it and I will tell you how that name popped up if you wish.

MI. Goldsmith. Please do.

MI. Hildago. Okay. In this operation that I did in

Mesico City I believe it was the last visit that when it was

finally accomplished I needed some information as to times and

places which would enable me to countervent the security of the

Communist Party security system. In other words, I wanted to

do my job and not get caught. The case officer there that I

had contact with said that he had someone, an agent, a Mexican

national, who could tell me these things and without giving me

her name, etc., we arranged or I arranged a method of meeting

her using intelligence trade craft to more cover my tracks,

cover her tracks so that we could meet and she mentioned this

name in the conversation but it had nothing to do with what I

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was there for so when the name came up, the name popped into

my memory.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever meet with Sylvia Duran?

MI. Hidalgo. No, sir, not to my knowledge. I met one

woman there and she was someone else.

Mr. Goldsmith. To your knowledge did Sylvia Duran ever

assist you directly of indirectly in any operation?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Sylvia Duran was

affiliated in any way with the CIA?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. Do you know whether she was affiliated in

any way with Cuban intelligence?

Mr. Hidalgo. At the time when this contact told me of it

I tied the two together, yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why did you make that connection?

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know. Now at that time it was

obvious to me as an intelligence agent that there was some

connection there but it was of no interest whatsoever to me.

I do remember that when I next saw this contact of mine I

mentioned the fact to him and let him proceed to do whatever

he wanted to.

Mr. Goldsmith. So for purposes of clarification, during

this period you felt that Sylvai Duran may have been connected

in some way with Cuban intelligence, is that correct?

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Mr. Hidalgo. With Cuban operations. You know, the Cuban

operation versus say Guatemala or Russian or whatever.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that I understand. When

you say Cuban operations do you mean operations by the Cuban

government?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, rather than saying, yes, I took it for

granted that she was an agent of the Cuban intelligence. That

is why I told this contact and he took it from there to inves-

tigate further.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether that issue was ever

resolved?

MI. Hidalgo. No, sir, I never even bothered to check on

it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any information about that

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today?

MI. Hidalgo. No, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. Are you familiar with the cryptonym AMMUG/I?

MI. Hidalgo.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Without disclosing the identity of this

individual would you tell the committee generally who he was?

MI. Hidalgo. AMMUG/1 was a Cuban intelligence officer,

he worked for Directorio General Intelligencia, DGI, the Cuban

government, the counterpart of CIA. He defected to Canada in

I believe 1964 and was brought into the United States and that

is what he did. He was a defector.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Did he provide information to the CIA?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. How significant was the defection of

AMMUG/1 considered to be?

Mr. Hidalgo. It was quite an effective, important

defection.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say he provided a wealth of

information?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. Do you know his present whereabouts?

Mr. Hidalgo. I would suspect he is in Miami but I do not

know.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was the last time you saw him per-

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sonally?

MI. Hidalgo. 1964 I believe, late 1964.

Mr. Goldsmith, What role, if any, did you have in

handling this defector?

Mr. Hidalgo. I was his hand holder and interrogator for

all the time that he was in the washington area.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many personal contacts did you have

with him during that period?

MI. Hidalgo. Quite a few. I lived in the same apartment

that he did.

Mr. Goldsmith. So you saw him virtually on a daily basis?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir. All day I spent with him and night.

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MI. Goldsmith. For how long a period was he in Washington!

Mr. Hidalgo. Now that you could help me.

Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately, Mr. Hidalgo?

Mr. Hidalgo. From the time he got to Washington, D. C.,

until June -- see if I remember this date now. My wife will

kill me because it is

the day before we got married. Late Junel

1964 when another agent took over temporarily while I went on

my honeymoon.

Mr. Preyer. Mr. Hidalgo, I am sorry. I think we will

have to recess for about ten minutes.

(Whereupon, at 3:15 p.M., the hearing recesseduntil 3:36

р.т.)

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MI. Preyer. The committee will come to order.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Hidalgo --

MI. Gaines. He wants to add something.

MI. Hidalgo. On those places I operated, I left out two

that might be important to you, I don't know. One was Germany

and the other one was Scotland.

Mr. Goldsmith. I believe my last question was for how

long a time period --

MI. Preyer. If you will excuse me, MI. Goldsmith.

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, sir.

MI. Preyer. If I could interrupt this hearing for a

matter that is not related to this hearing. A subpoena in the

name of Jules Mayer Turnable that was issued on August 2, 1978,

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was made returnable today at two o'clock before this committee.

The committee will permit compliance with the subpoena next

week by Tuesday, August 15, at two p.m.

I am sorry to interrupt you. You may proceed, Mr.

Goldsmith.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you.

Mr. Hidalgo, I believe my last question to you prior to

our recess was how long a time period have you actually spent

with AMMUG and you attempted to answer that question and my

recollection of your testimony is that you indicated the last

date that you spent with him but you never really told us when

you started spending time with him so again I would like to

ask you how much time, for how long a time period, did you

spend time with him?

Mr. Hidalgo.'

I don't recall the starting date but it

was immediately upon his arriving in the Washington area from

Canada.

MI. Goldsmith. Can you estimate how much time was

involved, a couple of months?

Mr. Hidalgo. Oh, yes. Total five, six months at one

time and then after this June date I again saw him for about

two or three weeks: so it was a bit of a time.

Mr. Goldsmith. During that five or six month period

initially you had daily contact with him I take it.

MI. Hidalgo. Yes, sir. I actually lived in the same

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house he was in.

Mr. Goldsmith. Before we continue with AMMUG I have a

few further questions to ask about sylvia Duran. Did you file

a report concerning information you had received about Sylvia

Duran?

MI. Hidalgo. No. All I did in that case was I saw this

contact of mine in Mexico City and told him about it and it

would have been something like, look, so and so, I am here on

something else, you know, this is out of my bailiwick and I

have no interest in it but if you are interested to follow it

up, go ahead, and that was the end of it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall telling Mr. Berk and Mr.

Hardway at the time of your interview with them that in fact

you had previous information concerning Sylvia Duran?

Mr. Hidalgo. To my case officer, yes; to my contact down

there.

Mr. Goldsmith. You didn't mean a written report?

Mr. Hidalgo. I didn't mean a formal written report, no.

When I came back I probably wrote a simple debriefing report

as to what I did during the time I was away, this was the normal

thing to do, but it would have been focused on my operation,

the success of it, etc.

Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to this operation I believe

you testified that you were in Mexico on two or three occasions!

For approximately how long a time period were you in Mexico on

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each occasion?

Mr. Hidalgo. Let me see if I can recall that. It would

not have been more than a week with the exception of the last

one I think it was about ten to fourteen days.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now was it your understanding that this

woman who told you about sylvia duran, was it your understand-

ing that she reported regularly on Duran?

Mr. Hidalgo. No. I knew she reported regularly but not

specifically on Duran.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was she a close associate of Sylvia Duran?'

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know that. My interest in this

woman was simply one of getting my operation through success-

fully and protecting myself and others.

Mr. Goldsmith. I take it, returning to AMMUG, that this

individual was subjected to a series of intensive debriefings,

is that correct?

MI. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. And in the course of these debriefings I

take it that he provided information regarding Lee Harvey

Oswald, is that correct?

Mr. Hidalgo. Not to me he didn't, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. To whom did he provide information?

MI. Hidalgo. I don't know if he did. Not to me. All

the information that I was interested in getting from him and

my group was interested in was intelligence information of

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Cuban operations against the United States and against other

countries and it was just to get us an insight eye into the

Cuban intelligence system.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether AMMUG provided infor-

mation concerning Oswald's contacts with DGI personnel in

Mexico City?

Mr. Hidalgo. He spoke about Mexico City and I remember

showing him many, many photographs from that situation that

you mentioned before, the photographic surveillance.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever show him any of the photo-

graphs from the Mexico City station that had been obtained on

Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City?

Mr. Hidalgo. All the photographs I remember showing him

were photographs provided to me by my direct superior in

Washington headquarters and I assumed that all of them were

from this surveillance. Now perhaps others were included in

that, I was not.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand. : My question is do you

recall whether he was

shown any photographs of Lee Harvey

Oswald?

Mr. Hidalgo. Not to my recollection, I did not. Whether

he was shown photographs by my direct superior or at times when!

some other agent took over, I cannot comment on that but I did

not.

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MI. Goldsmith. Do you know whether AMMUG was permitted to

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listen to any tape recorded statements of Lee Harvey Oswald's

voice?

Mr. Hidalgo. Not to my knowledge. He was, as I say, at

times with other people but when my direct superior came in I

left. At times I needed relief, I needed to get away a little

bit, and other agents would come in.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether any of the AMMUG

debriefing reports were sent to the CIA office designated as

SI?

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Mr. Hidalgo. I would imagine they might have been.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what the term SI refers to?

Mr. Hidalgo. I would say Special Intelligence.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is Special Intelligence?

Mr. Hidalgo. That is all I know. I was not interested.

Because of the compartmentation I had, I wanted not to know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any idea what the purpose of

the SI unit was?

MI. Hidalgo.

No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was any of the information concerning

Oswald sent to SI?

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why would this information have been sent

to the SI unit?

Mr. Hidalgo. Disseminated to people that were interested

in it. Let's take, for example, that AMMUG said there is a

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factory in Cifenasago or another part of Cuba that we guarded

because of this, that or the other thing, that would not be of

interest to me but I would

report it to my immediate superior

and it would not be of interest to him but he would funnel it

to somebody that might be interested in that information. So

information that we received on AMMUG was dispersed to many

parts of the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did AMMUG provide any information with

regard to Sylvia Duran?

MI. Hidalgo. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did he provide any information in regard

to a woman named Louisa Calderon? .

Mr. Hidalgo. That would be Cul-nin-o my knowledge of

Spanish tells me.

Mr. Goldsmith. You know more about that than I, sir.

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't recall that. Again I must say that

this was fourteen years ago and since then, and even before I

retired, I went on to other cases and I don't like to

Understand the mentality of the spy, if that is what you want

to call me, you compartment your mind and once you finish an

operation you botch it up very neatly and shove it away. It

is for everyone's good.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did AMMUG provide any information in

reference to a woman named Teresa Proenza Proenza? She was a

culture attache in Mexico City.

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Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know. Again I don't recall that.

Remember, my main objective with AMMUG was knowing of my

opposite numbers in Cuba.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is your testimony today that AMMUG never

gave you personally any information concerning Oswald?

Mr. Hidalgo. That is my recollection. The name does not

por up to me.

That is one of the reports that I wrote down.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did Mr. Swenson -- AMMUG's I guess case

officer -- ever discuss with you the information that AMMUG

provided regarding Oswald?

Mr. Hidalgo. No. Mr. Swenson was my direct superior.

I reported to Mr. Swenson. Mr. Swenson did not report to me.

Do you follow?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. Hidalgo. So if I heard anything from him it was not

my privy to know about

it. He would review the information I

got from AMMUG and if he ever came down to me and said, "What

about this?" it would be something that I had written and he

dir not understand.

Mr. Goldsmith. And he never asked you to question AMMUG

about Oswald?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were your interrogation sessions with

AMMUG tape recorded?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mine were not. Remember, I was

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with him. Sometimes he would talk for ten, twelve, fourteen,

sixteen hours. In the middle of the night he would get up and

could not sleep. He would be worried about his family in Cuba.

We would talk and play cards. All the time talking and cooper-

ating. I never bothered tape recording it, it was quite open.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were any of the sessions with AMMUG tape

recorded not necessarily involving you?

Mr. Hidalgo. They may have, I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever receive information about a

DGI case officer in Mexico City named Ernesto?

Mr. Hidalgo. Ernesto. Yes, I believe I remember that

name but right now I could not tell you what it was. I prob-

ably reported on it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Pardon me?

Mr. Hidalgo. I probably reported on it then because that

was

something I was interested in. Any identification of DGI

agents I would immediately take down.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is this information that you would have

obtained from AMMUG or from someone else?

Mr. Hidalgo. From AMMUG probably of - now wait. I

handled other defectors, remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand.

Mr. Hidalgo. But the name Ernesto I believe would have

been from AMMUG.

MI. Goldsmith. Can you give the committee any more details

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about this particular officer?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir, unless you have something to refresh

my memory.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am told that this individual whom I

referred to as Ernesto may have been an individual named Andres

Armona who also may have been a red headed Cuban. Is that

familiar?

Mr. Hidalgo. That name sounds familiar.. Of course there.

are red headed Cubans so if that was said it would have

impressed me that much but the name sounds like I might have

heard it. Again you have access to any of my records at the

time and if it is there I would admit it but right now I cannot

recall the information.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know Win Scott?

MI. Hidalgo. I know him as I know Mr. Berk. Not partic-

ularly. Mr. Scott, here I am.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was Win Scott?

Mr. Hidalgo. He was a member of the affair there of the

operations. I don't know what his other input was.

MI. Goldsmith. Was he station chief of the Mexico City

station?

MI. Hidalgo. I seem to remember that he was but I never

-- I am sorry.

MI. Goldsmith. How many personal contacts, if any, did

you have with Mr. Scott?

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MI. Hidalgo. None.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you involved in any operations for

MI. Scott?

Mr. Hidalgo. I may have been involved in operations that

he also was involved in, I don't know, but I was never directly

responsible to Mr. Scott as

i such. None of my trips to Mexico

were strictly IDYs and for one purpose only and so I was not

privy to any operation that he had there.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Do you know an individual by the name of

David Phillips?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was David Phillips?

Mr. Hidalgo. David Phillips is a personal friend of mine

and an intelligence officer, an excellent intelligence officer

of the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did you get to know Mr. Phillips?

Mr. Hidalgo. In day-to-day operations at Washington.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know MI. Phillips when he was in

Mexico City?

Mr. Hidalgo. I never saw him in Mexico City. I knew he

was in Mexico City but I never met with him there.

MI. Goldsmith. Were you involved in any operations with

Mr. Phillips at any time?

Mr. Hidalgo. I was involved in operations in which MI.

Phillips was involved in but never together.

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Mr. Goldsmith. How often have you had personal contact

with Mr. Phillips?

Mr. Hidalgo. Then?

Mr. Goldsmith. Through the years.

Mr. Hidalgo. Through the years after he retired I called

him. We belonged to the same association. We are both retired

and I talk to him frequently.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was your relationship with him both a

business relationship as well as a personal friendship rela-

tionship?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes. More or actually friendship than

operational.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know an individual named Maurice

Bishop?

Mr. Hidalgo. Again Mi. Bishop was in the organization but

I had no personal day-to-day open relationship with him.

Phillips, yes; Bishop, no. I knew them both and Phillips I

knew. I know MI. Berk is over there and I know Mr. Hardway is

over there but I have no relationships with them. Do you

follow me?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. I believe you indicated that with

1r. Phillips your relationship was both business and personal.

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now with Mr. Bishop -- was this Mr. Maurice

Bishop?

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Mr. Hidalgo. I believe that was the name, yes. His was

strictly a business knowledge.

MI. Goldsmith. How long has it been since you have seen

Maurice Bishop?

Mr. Hidalgo. Less than twice or three times in the hall

way somewhere.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was the last time that you saw him?

Mr. Hidalgo. It would have to be before 1970 somewhere.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what position, if any, he held!

with the agency?

Mr. Hildago. He held a position higher than mine but I

did not know, you know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have any personal contact

with MI. Bishop?

MI. Hidalgo. I don't believe so. If it was, it was not

that important that it would impress itself upon me.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did he work in the western Hemisphere

Division?

MI. Hidalgo. I think so but again I am not sure of all

the details.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know any other individuals who

were familiar with Mr. Bishop who have known him?

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know. Perhaps Mr. Swenson, perhaps

Dave Phillips.

MI. Goldsmith. Was

Mr. Bishop's office located at CIA

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headquarters in Langley?

Mr. Hidalgo. I believe so.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall which floor his office was

located on?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Mr. Bishop ever went

by any other name?

MI. Hidalgo. No, sir, I have no knowledge of any of his

other names.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you make your best effort, please,

to describe MI. Bishop's fiscal description? What did he look

like?

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Mr. Hidalgo. I could not even make a mental image of

Mr. Bishop right now.

Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately how old is he today?

MI. Hidalgo. I don't know. This must seem strange to

you, it really must, I know but, you see -- How can I say it?

The relationship of one agent to another is a thing that you

try your best not to - not to know.

MI. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Bishop an administrator or a case

officer?

MI. Hidalgo. I would say his position was higher than

mine. A little honcho against a chief.

Mr. Goldsmith. Where did you generally see him on those

occasions when you did see him?

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Mr. Hidalgo. I imagine in the agency perhaps.

MI. Goldsmith. For example, in the hallway, in the

refeteria?

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Mr. Hidalgo. In the hallways or cafeteria. Never cer-

tainly at my desk.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is your best recollection as to the

number of times that you saw him?

Mr. Hidalgo. A couple of times, two or three.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you saw this individual and you knew

that he was Maurice Bishop, how did you know that the gentleman

that you had in mind was not that Maurice Bishop?

Mr. Hidalgo. Someone might have said, "That is Maurice

Bishop," and it was different from Dave Phillips or Hal Swenson,

guys that I know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know a man named Firgault?

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't think so.

MI. Goldsmith. At this time I would like to show you an

exhibit, I believe it is JFK Exhibit No. 104, and I would like

to ask you to examine that and to tell the committee whether you

recognize that individual.

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't believe so, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you. You can put that aside now.

Did you know an individual named Antonio Veciana Blanc?

MI. Hidalgo.. Now this name sounds familiar to me in my

Cuban operation, I don't know where. It may have been with

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tit brigade or he may have been an agent of an agent. I knew

literally hundreds - hundreds - of the Cubans.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did MI. Bishop have any involvement in the

affairs of the brigade? By brigade I am not referring to the

Bay of Pigs operation.

MI. Hidalgo. I don't know if he did. I was not aware of

everyone. He might very well have been involved in this thing.

MI. Goldsmith: Getting back to Mr. Bishop, when was the

first time you saw him to the best of your memory?

Mr. Hidalgo. I would think about the early Sixties.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you ever formally introduced to him?

Mr. Hidalgo. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. And from the time that you first saw him

in the early Sixties until the last time that you saw him,

which I believe you said would have been about 1969 or 1970,

approximately how many times did you actually see this man?

Mr. Hidalgo. It would not have been that late because in

late 1964 or early 1965 I left the Cuban operations and went to

another country of interest, so in those times, say 1960 to

1964, it might have been two or three times.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say in light of your last

comment that once you stopped working in Cuban operations, you

left that particular area, you no longer saw Mr. Bishop?

Mr. Hidalgo. If I did, it would be just in the hallway

anc I don't think so. I was now in another part of the agency

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taking TDY trips for that part of the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith, So by that, in other words that would

irfer that Mr. Bishop worked in the area of Cuban operations?

Mr. Hidalgo. No, not necessarily. He might have worked

in -- you know, there are so many operations. He might have

been transferred to somewhere else, I don't know. You see,

where in the case of Hal Swenson and Dave Phillips I continued

to seek them out and say, "How are you, Dave? How are you

doing?" Go to lunch, play some poker. In the case of Bishop

this is not so.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever see Mr. Bishop at the JM

wave station?

MI. Hidalgo. No. In the JM wave station you have to

understand that I was assigned to the JM wave station but I

stayed away from the JM wave station. It sounds peculiar.

was assigned there and yet I was not there. I was assigned

there shortly after I went there and met my own cover and did

my own operations. So when I did go to the JM wave station,

it was just a matter of just quickly in and get it over with.

MI. Goldsmith. Did you ever see Mr. Bishop's picture in

the newspaper?

Mr. Hidalgo. I may have, I don't recall. There was a

time there after early 1964 where you could have asked me to

identify my children and I could not have done it. That is

when I had my second stroke and that was when I left JM wave.

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I has evacuated actually out.

Mr. Goldsmith. But you are certain nevertheless that

during your stay at the agency on at least two or three occa-

sions you saw an individual whom you knew to be Maurice Bishop?

MI. Hidalgo. Whom someone told me, "That is Maurice

Bishop. "

Mr. Goldsmith. MI. Chairman, I have no further questions

at this time. I may have a few follow-up questions. If the

committee has questions, I will yield at this time.

Mr. Preyer. All right.

Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Do you get any feel for whether other people that you get

to see just casually at the CIA are --I don't know how to put

this -- higher of lower on the pecking order?

Mr. Hidalgo. Pardon?

Mr. Fithian. Do you have a feel for an individual that

you see casually over at the agency as to whether or not they

are higher up in the structure?

MI. Hidalgo. A feeling?

Mr. Fithian. Yes.

MI. Hidalgo.. You mean when I was working at the agency

if I saw someone --

Mr. Fithian. You didn't see them, you were not working

with them every day, you just see them from time to time, do

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you get a feel, whether by eating lunch or what they are doing,

as to whether they are above you in rank or equal or whatever?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, I think I know what you are trying to

say. Essentially, yes, sir.

MI. Fithian. Do you have an impression that Biship was

higher?

?

Mr. Hidalgo. I would say he was a higher grade than I was.

MI. Fithian. Higher grade than you were?

Mr. Hidalgo. Of course I was not a very high grade.

Mr. Fithian. That is the only question I had, MI. Chair-

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quarters?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes. At the time I was in headguarters.

That is where I went.

MI. Preyer. And Dave Phillips' office was also there?

MI. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Preyer. And you would go out occasionally on missions

such as going down to Mexico?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

MI. Preyer. But you would be working for the CIA in

Washington and not for Win Scott, the chief of the Mexican

station?

Mr. Hidalgo. That is correct, sir. When I went to

someone's area on an operation, they would be advised that I

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would be coming into the country. Meeting with them, no. If

I reed any contact, if I got into trouble and needed something,

I would always

be able to call and they would recognize the

name and they would assist me if they could.

Mr. Preyer. You say you knew Dave Phillips well but you

didn't have an operation relationship with him, you didn't work

with him on operations.

Mr. Hidalgo. That is correct, sir. It is just, you know,

two guys that met and happened to like each other.

MI. Preyer. Was his office near yours?

Mr. Hidalgo. It was on the same floor.

Mr. Preyer. Was he higher in rank or lower in rank than

you?

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Ms. Hidalgo. Higher, sir.

MI. Preyer. And . Maurice Bishop's office was not on

the same floor as yours in Langley?

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know. It was a very large floor

and there were many people on the floor that had nothing to

do with what I had to do.

• Mi. Preyer. Did Bishop have some relationship in his

appearance and age to Phillips?

Mr. Hidalgo. Again I cannot recall Bishop's appearance

at all.

MI. Preyer. Do you recall more on the name when people

said, "That is Maurice Bishop"?

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MI. Hidalgo. Maurice Bishop, right. . It might have been

a secretary or a fellow case officer or someone.

Ms. Preyer. All right. Thank you.

Well, let me just ask one other question. Staff might

ariswer this. Who is AMMUG? Do we know him by any other name?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir. At one time I could give you his

name, etc. Right now I can only give you his first name.

His

first name I believe was Vladimer and the name I used confi-

dentially was Laddie.

Mr. Preyer. He was

a Cuban defector?

MI. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

MI. Preyer. Who was connected with Cuban intelligence?

Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I state for the record the

committee does have this individual's true name but just for

sake of security we are not referring to it.

Mr. Preyer. All right.

MI. Hidalgo. I appreciate that.

MI. Goldsmith. Thank you.

MI. Preyer. Thank you. I have no further questions.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I have just a few more

questions if I may proceed. How much time do I have?

Mr. Preyer. Mr. Fithian andI will have to leave you in

a couple of minutes here. Will it take you more than a few

minutes or so? We have got to go and vote.

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MI. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. Preyer. The committee will stand in recess for about

ter minutes.

(Whereupon, at 4:11 p.m.,

the committee recessed until

4:24 р.т.)

Mr. Preyer. The committee will resume its session.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to

be brief.

I have a few more questions for you, Mr. Hidalgo.

Do you know whether David Phillips knew Maurice Bishop?

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know that. He may have known him

but I don't know that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the name Maurice

Biship may have been an alias?

Mr. Hidalgo. Very possible.

MI. Goldsmith. Why do you say that?

Mr. Hidalgo. Because others in the agency thought that

they knew me by X name and they called me by that name when in

fact it was not.

MI. Goldsmith. So the use of aliases even at agency

headquarters was not at all uncommon, is that true, to your

knowledge?

MI. Hidalgo. That is true.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Maurice Bishop was

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ever involved in the Bay of Pigs operation?

Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know. See, my part of the Bay of

Pigs operation was a specific area and even my immediate

superior during the Bay of Pigs did not tell me everything

about it and I didn't tell him everything that I was doing.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know William Harvey?

Mr. Hidalgo. That name I definitely know from hearing

it. Let's see. Again I could not give you a physical

description of the man but I don't think that is Maurice.

That is a true name. I do remember that, yes. Harvey was

mixed up in the Cuban operation definitely.

MI. Goldsmith. Do you recall ever working for him?

MI. Hidalgo. Not directly. Not directly.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the agency had any

penetration agents in the Cuban embassy in Mexico City in

1963?

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Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the agency, other

than the information it received from AMO, ever received any

other information from Cuban sources concerning. Lee Harvey

Oswald?

anyone.

Mr. Hidalgo. No, I don't know who might have heard, if

Mr. Goldsmith.

Have you ever been in the Cuban embassy

in Mexico City?

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MI. Hidalgo. No, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any knowledge of any political

assassination plots on the part of the CIA during the period

1960 through 1964?

Mr. Hidalgo. Let me answer this way. I have no -- as my

attornry knows, I wanted to make a statement to this effect at

the start, if I may make it now. I now nor never knew of any

assassination plot by anyone in the United States Government,

in any agency of the United States Government, any knowledge of!

any assassination plot.

Mr. Goldsmith. MI. Hidalgo, I asked you earlier whether

you knew what the term Domestic Exploitation Section referred

to and I believe your testimony was that you did not.

Mr. Hidalgo. That is right. It didn't make sense to me.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the Domestic Exploi-

tation Section is a section that would have contacted persons

is the United States -- for example, relatives of people who

lived overseas -- in order to recruit those persons or to have

those persons assist the agency to recruit persons living

overseas to assist the agency?

Mr. Hidalgo. That might have been the domestic operations

but exploitation just does not make sense. You are right, it

certainly could be something like that.

Mr. Goldsmith. I have no further questions at this time.

Thank you, Mr. Hidalgo.

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Mr. Fithian. I have a question, Mr. Chairman.

On that last question, Mr. Hidalgo, that seems like such

a logical arrangement, whatever the name of it. As far as you

know is that --

Mr. Hidalgo. It is a logical thing. It is a very logical

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sense.

MI. Fithian. Do you know if the agency engages in that?

Mr. Hidalgo. I would imagine they are. It is a form of

intelligence. Why not?

that is or is not done?

MI. Fithian. But do you of your personal knowledge know

Mr. Hidalgo. I have done it myself, yes, sir.

Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MI. Preyer. Thank you, Mr. Hidalgo. We appreciate your

being here today.

Under our rules when a witness completes his testimony if

he or his counsel would care to make a statement for five

minutes or less he is entitled to do so. If there is anything

further you would like to say at this time of add by way of

explanation of any questions you may have answered, the

committee will be glad

to hear from you.

MI. Hidalgo. I can only say, sir, that I came here a

little afraid that I would have to name people whose lives

would have been in jeopardy if that name became known and to

talk about things that would have placed me under possible

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criminal charges if I had done so. I am glad and I appreciate

very much the way it has been handled and that such subjects

have not come up. I thank you very much for the way you have

conducted it.

MI. Preyer. Thank you, Mr. Hidalgo. We appreciate your

cooperation with the committee.

At this time the committee stands recessed.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the subcommittee recessed.)

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