COMMITTEE BUSINESS
Originator: HSCA
Document date: 10/20/1977
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/8/201

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10107-10476

RECORD SERIES:

NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014663

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: HSCA

FROM:

TO:

TITLE: COMMITTEE BUSINESS

DATE: 10/20/1977

PAGES: 45

SUBJECTS:

HSCA, ADMINISTRATION

HSCA, METHODOLOGY

TRAFFICANTE, SANTOS

ORGANIZED CRIME

HSCA, STAFF

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: Open in Full

CURRENT STATUS : Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 08/17/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS:

Includes 3 copies. MLK material withdrawn, pp. 5-11, 35-37. Box 270.

v9.1

DocId: 32262407

Page 1

---

## Page 2

Stenographic trenscript

HEARINGS

Before, The

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

COMMITEE BUSINESS

recurrue lessen

Desta

Washington.D.Cd

October 20, 1977

Alderson Reporting company,

Official Reporter

300 Seventh St SaW Washingtor DC

554-23-15

---

## Page 3

CHOMAS: ms 1

1

COMMITTEE MEETING

2

3

Thursday, October 20, 1977

ITH STREET

REPORTERS

BUILDING, WASHINGTON. D.

20024 (2021-554-2315

8

10

12

1

3

?4

15

lé

17

18

19

20

24

25

House of Representatives,

Select Committee on Assassinations

Washington, D. C.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:15 p.m..

in Room 2325, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable

Louis Stokes (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Stokes, Preyer, Fauntroy, Burke,

Ford, Fithian, Edgar, Devine, McKinney and Sawyer.

Staff Present: E. Evans, B. Lehner, E. Begning, J. Wolf,

G. Robert Blakey, I.C. Matthews, J. Schlictman, J. Facter,

D. Kuhn, and W. Cross:

-

The Chairman. A quorum being present, the full Select

Committee on Assassinations is now called to order.

MI. Blakey, I recognize you.

MI. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, we have one matter that can be

taken up in the open meeting. This is a continuation of an

issue raised in the last meeting.

You have before you a resolution to designate counsel

This designation is on the Martin Luther King side:

(The above referred to resolution follows)

1/

Exhibit

DocId: 32262407 Page

2- MLiK

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

---

## Page 4

2

3

5

10

REPORTERS BUILDING

12

13

16

17

18

419

20

21

22

23

24

25

Mr. Blakey. We discussed this matter in the last mèet-

ing with reference to the Kennedy side. This is merely a

continuation of that on the King side.

This would straighten out and make uniform our designated

counsel on both sides.

The Chairman. All right, are there any questions

relative to the resolution now before us?

MI. Devine. Mr. Chairman, I suppose the reasons are the

same as given at the last meeting. I would, therefore, move

the adoption.

The Chairman. It has been properly moved that the

resolution now before us be adopted. The Clerk. will cail

the r011.

The Clerk. Mr. stokes.

MI. Stokes. Aye.

The Clerk.

Mr. Devine.

Mr. Devine. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. McKinney.

Mr. McKinney. Aye.

The Clerk.

Mr. Fauntroy.

(No response)

The Clerk. Mr. Thone.

(No response) :

DocId: 32262407

Page 4

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPONY. INC.

---

## Page 5

2

3

554-2345

5

7

8

BU TUNING:

MASHINGTON,

-10

12

3

14

15

:17

18

19

20

23

24

25

The Clerk. Mrs. Burke.

(No response)

The Clerk.

Mr. Sawyer.

Mr. Sawyer. Aye.

The Clerk.

Mr. Doda.

(No response)

The Clerk.

Mr. Ford.

(No response)

The Clerk. Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Aye.

The Clerk. Seven Ayes.

The Chairman. All right, the resolution is adopted.

Mr. Blakey.

MI. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, the next two matters have to

do with the investigations and I think it would probably be

appropriate to go into close session.

Mr. McKinney. I would so move, MI. Chairman.

The Chairman. Properly moved that the next matters be

discussed in executive session.

The Clerk will call the roll.

The Clerk.

Mr. Stokes.

Mr. Stokes.

Aye.

The Clerk.

Mr. Devine.

DocId: 32262407 Page 5

ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

---

## Page 6

2

3

20024

02023.

554-2345

5

REPORTERS BUTIDING.

10

11

12

13

14

23

24

25

Mr. Devine. Aye.

The Clerk. MI. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer. Aye.

The Clerk.

Mr. McKinney.

Mx. McKinney. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy:

(No response)

The Clerk. Mr. Thone.

(No response)

The Clerk. Mrs. Burke.

(No response)

The Clerk. Mr. Sawyer.

MI. Sawyer. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Dodd.

(No response)

The Clerk.

Mr. Ford.

(No response)

The Clerk. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Edgar.

MI. Edgar.

The Clerk.

Seven ayes.

The Chairman.:

All right, seven persons having voted in

the affirmative this meeting is now in executive session and

all members of the public therefore excluded.

Docid: 32262407 Page 6

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 7

RG: 233

ENTRY:

BOX:

TAB #:

COPIES/ PPS. /CLASS.

1010710471

File. 0.

014663

pp. 5-11

ACCESS RESTRICTED

The item identified below has been withdrawn from this file:

File Designation

Date

From

• To

In the review of this file this item was removed because access to it is

restricted. Restrictions on records in the National Archives are stated

in general and specific record group restriction statements which are

available for examination. The item identified above has been withdrawn

because it contains:

ITHDRAW

NO!!

Security-Classified Information

Otherwise Restricted Information

MLK

Authority

08/22/93

Date

Withdrawn by NSCA

John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992 (P.L. 102-526)

NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION

NA FORM (AO0O (1-86)

DocId: 32262407 Page 7

---

## Page 8

2

3

1

5

=

REPORTERS BUTLDING

WASHINGTON,

C. 20020: (202) 554-2345

7

•10

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

•"24

25

DocId: 32262407

12

MI. Edgar. Aye.

The Clerk. Nine ayes.

Mr. Devine. We have about six minutes left.

The Chairman. The motion is carried.

Is there anything further? We will have to come back.

MI. Blakey. There are two more issues.

The Chairman. We will go vote and come right back.

(A short recess was taken)

The Chairman. At this time we will resume the meeting

and, Mr. Blakey, you may proceed.

Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, the next matter is

a question

of an immunity grant for Santos Trafficante, JI.

AS I

am sure you remember, Mr. Trafficante appeared

before the Committee sometime ago and claimed the privilege

of self-incrimination. He is like Loran Hall, kind of an

outstanding

witness -- outstanding in the sense

that he is

outstanding and not talking.

I think perhaps Mr. Trafficante has more potentiality for

considerably more substance than Loran Hall does.

what we would propose to do is on the second and third

of November to bring Mr. Trafficante in before the Kennedy

Subcommittee, although, of course, obviously everyone is

invited, and indeed encouraged to come.

My legal counsel corrects me, it should be a full

Committee meeting on the 2nd and 3rd since the original meeting

3/

Exhibir

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

---

## Page 9

13

2

3

S.

REPORTERS BUILDING

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

lá

17

•19

20

21

23

24

25

was before the full Committee and the subpoena had originally

been issued before the full Committee. So I stand corrected

and I don't know why I forgot it. I talked about it.

It

will be a full Committee meeting on the 2nd and 3ra to hear

from MI. Trafficante.

The investigative srategy is to make this his initial

appearance, not his final and exhaustive appearance. If he

responds to us the thought is we should begin questioning him

primarily based on the Bayo-Pauli raid and his possible par-

ticipation in it.

MI. Fauntroy. On the what?

Mr. Blakey. Bayo-Pauli raid. This is a matter that

came out from Mr. Hall.

we have also made an effort and are in the process now

of developing information from both the Central Intelligence

Agency and the FBI on this situation.

I might indicate that that raid is in itself not terribly

significant. It was probably a failure. Nevertheless, it 15

a possible organize crime anti-Castro activity;

involving CIA

personnel well after anything turned up by the

Church

Committee. There is, I don't say a possibility, but a merest

hint of suspicion that if the story originally given by Mr.

Roselli that one of these raids was turned around and brought

back on the President, some raid during this period of time

DocId: 32262407

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY.. INC.

Page

---

## Page 10

14

1

3

1.01

=

REPORTERS

BUILDING.

WASHINGTON,

D.C.

20028.

(202)

5511-2345

5

8

10

12

13

•14

17

18

19

20

23™

24

25

would have to have filled that boat. It probably would have

involved Mr. Trafficante.

So we

are beginning a step by step move in on a very

serious allegation, the Roselli matter, and we begin moving

in on it with Mr. Trafficante.

We are also in the process of continuing the contacts

initiated by your letter to Senator Inouye. We hope to have

available to us before Mr. Trafficante's appearance the

Roeselli testimony from the Senate, also the Maheu testimony

before the Senate. We can then evaluate whether we wanted to

hear from Mr. Maheu ourselves.

Obviously Mr. Roselli is no longer available for

Congressional subpoenas anyway.

If MI. Trafficante does not cooperate with us -- we

really do not know whether he will or not. If he does, there

ia a lot we can talk to him about now and perhaps even more

so we could talk to him about down the road. If he does not

cooperate with us, this is probably as good a time and place

to find

out what happens if a witness does not cooperate after

having taken the Fifth Amendment.

I expect that after the first of the year it will be a

more common occurrence that witnesses will not cooperate with

us and it may be a good idea for us to have a little practice

before the first of the year. So MI. Trafficante is really a

witness before the Committee designed to do a number of things.

ALDERSON REPORTINE COMPANY. INC

DocId: 32262407: Page 10

---

## Page 11

15

2

3

4

5:

6

7

₴

9

10

07.

REPORTERS

BUILDING

12

13

14

15

: 16

:17

118

19

20

21

22

23

24

Mr. McKinney. I just have one question, Bob. You talked

about the worst of all worlds or the best. If some guy comes

in and says I am Raoul, the population control experiment

going on in this Kennedy assassination, it has leveled off the

population rapidly. If we get into many executive sessions and

give him immunity, what is going to make sure he is ever around

to appear again? The traffic death rate in this thing is

extreme. He is the last of the Mohicans as I understand it.

Mr. Blakey. He is certainly one of the last of the

Mohicans. I don't know I would state he is the last of the

Mohicans. That is a risk we are going to increasingly run

into not only with our organized crime witnesses but our Cuban

witnesses and the best I can say for Santo Trafficante, Jr.,

is perhaps to a little less degree, it certainly is true of

Giancana, the remarkable thing is that he is not dead now but

that he wasn't dead a long time ago.

There are an awfül lot of people who had reasons to have

killed both his father and him for a number of years and they

have survived, and I think that is just a risk we have to run

for him. If he doen't want to cooperate with us --

Mr. McKinney. I for one wouldn't go to the funeral

anyway, but I don't want to see our witnesses bumped off.

Mr. Blakey. We have already given him the dubious: status

of being one of our witnesses when we called him..

He was also

a witness before the Church Committee and of the three people

AlpeRSON RepoRTiNG COMPANY. INC.

Docid: 32262407 Page 11

---

## Page 12

16

1

2

3

who testifed before the Church Committee only he is alive.

Mr. Sawyer. Did he take the Fifth before the Church

5

20024 (202)

.7

8

BUILDING,

HASHINGTON,

10

11

12

13

14

15

• ló

17

18

19

20

21

23

24

25

Committee?

MI. Blakey. Yes.

Mr. Sawyer. He took the Fifth before the Church Com-

mittee?

Mr. Blakey. My indications is he dia not, he testified.

Mr. Devine. Wasn't his willingness to appear before us

and take the Fifth to show the war lords out there he was

going to stand up?

Mr. Blakey. I have heard conflicting stories as to why

he did. I think that is probably something we ought to find

out now when we are in a position to do some very serious

questioning of him. It is a predicate in our record to inter-

rogate him.

Mr. Mckinney. He certainly wouldn't like the D.C. jail.

Mr. Fithian. Have we reviewed the Trafficante testimony

in the Senate?

Mr. Blakey. I am in the process of delicate negotiations

which will get us access to that now and my expectation is

that we will have reviewed it by that time.

Mr. Fithian. I am wondering, Mr. Blakey, if your

strategy might not possibly need modifying depending upon what

you find out if the man has already testified.

Mr. Blakey. It is my understanding of what he has

DocId: 32262407. Page 12

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

---

## Page 13

2

3

554÷2345

5

7

20024

9

10

BUILDING,

12

13

!

4

15

1ớ

17

18.

19

20

:23

24

16 A

testified about, it is unrelated to what we are talking about

but it is not squarely on all fours and the major focus of the

Senate Committee's investigation was the CIA-Mafia plots and

Mr. Trafficante and Mr. Roselli and Mr. Giacano played a major

roll in them.

The major focus on the Senate Committee was on

the adequacy of the responses the intelligence agencies made

to the Warren Commission.

Our focus is really on the neither of those but on what

happened, actually happened on November 22nd. The witnesses

related but he has not yet been I think full and fairly

explored on Dallas as opposed to Miami and Havana.

Mr. Fithian. What happens to the House, if Mr.

Trafficante asks to have his session before us in open session?

Mr. Blakey. He can ask for that but it is an option he

doesn't have..

Under the House Rules he should go into execu-

tive session because the kind of questions we would want to

ask him would tend to defame and incriminate clearly and

degrade.

Mr. Fithian. I am wondering somewhat about the members

In the House who really took us to task on that Trafficante

appearance and those who would say that unless you are willing

to permit a man to testify in open court you have violated his

civil liberties.

Mr. Blakey. Well, the House Rules are square, that the

House Rules say if a witness is going to testify in a manner to

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32262407

Page 13

---

## Page 14

17

2

3

554-2345

5

7

9

BUILDING, WASHINGTON

11

1.2.

13

14

15

17

18

20

23

24

25

defame, degrade or incriminate, you are supposed to go into

executive session. Our rules reflect that.. In the context of

granting a person immunity, where you are going to pursue

investigative leads off what he said, hopefully says, it should

be in executive session.

The Chairman. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. Fithian.

Yes, I have finished.

The Chairman. On that point, wouldn't the gentleman

really agree that what shocked the consciences of some of the

members of the House was what they felt was a resort to

McCarthyism in terms of posing questions to the witness while

having a knowledge in advance that the witness would assert

his

constitutional rights?

Mr. Fithian. I think that was certainly a pretty good

argument.

Mr. Blakey. I might say, Mr. Chairman, the staff has

discussed this and I will go on the record as saying that Mr.

Trafficante is not being called simply because of his alleged

associations with organized crime and there is no effort to

treat him as a guineapig or a Mafia witness. There is a

genuine bonified predicate in our record, and frankly while

no one can say they love organized crime, of all the things

that they can say about me, I don't think a person should be

called simply because he is a member of organized crime and

asked questions, if someone knows he is going to take the Fifth

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId:32262407 Page 14

---

## Page 15

18

2

3

S.

REPORTERS BUILDING,

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024

(202)

7

9

10

12

13

14

15

• lá

÷17

18

19

20

23

24

25

Amendment and take advantage of that.

If there was not a legitimate investigative predicate

in our record, in our files, I would have no part of bringing

him in here. He is a central figure in this investigation.

both sides, in the sense in which some of the very serious

allegations that have been made involving primarily Castro

turning a group around and sending them back. If that is false

and Mr. Trafficante can lay that out, I think we have a duty

to destroy the false information, and if there is some indica-

tion that organized crime or anti-Castro groups had a part in

the assassination and Trafficante can help us move in that

direction, he has a legal duty to do it.

I think we should ask him whether he is going to live up

to his legal duty.

Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Yes.

I have one further follow up question on that. Since

you have mentioned going into just one facet of the investiga-

tive information which has come to your attention, has the staff

discussed from the viewpoint of whether you ought to be ready

to go into other facets with Mr. Trafficante rather than to

confine yourself to anj statement?

Mr. Blakey. This witness, if he is going to talk, is not

one or two day witness. This witness may be two days now and

another six months down the road another two days, another 30

ALGERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC:

DocId: 32262407

Page 15

---

## Page 16

19

2

3

MASHINGTON,

10

17

.12

13

14

15

REPORTERS

1.7

 18

1.9

:20

21

days down the road, another three or four days. If he is going

to talk and cooperate

with us this is merely a beginning and

it might as well begin now. We have enough: to hold him for

two full days and our proposal is we do it on the second and

third of November. We could wait six months and give you five

days worth of testimony from him.

My feeling is there is a time pressure that is moving

us and that we should move as soon as possible.

Mr. McKinney. Mr. Chairman, evidently the Speaker

formally announced we would leave here on the 4th and go into

proforma sessions until theEnergy conferrees

come back at

which point he will call the House back in session. I was

going to say when you said the 3rd and 4th --

Mr. Blakey. 2nd and 3Id.

Mr. Mckinney. I would suggest that the week before the

4th we will probably be in until 1 o'clock every morning, full

roll call votes, maybe we can slip it over. The 3ra is what?

Mr. Blakey. Thursday•

Mr. Devine. Either that or borrow a room off the House

floor like the House Administration.

The Chairman. We will be extremely busy at that time.

Mr. Mckinney •

That will be a crazy week around this

23

24

25

place.

Mr. Blakey, We have scheduled for the Warren Commission

on the 8th, 9th and lOth and 15, l6th and 1lth.

• ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

DocId: 32262403. Page 16

---

## Page 17

20

2

3

Let me suggest that we tentatively schedule Trafficante

for the 2nd and 3rd and if everything collapses and we can't

make it, maybe we can move into Friday the 4th or Monday the

7th.

554-2345

5

7

8

10

STREET

12

13

14

15

1á

17.

18

•19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Mr. Mckinney, We could do it if we could get a room over

in the Capitol. That is really a crazy time around here when

we are getting ready to go out.

Mr. Blakey. I think, frankly there is a real possibility,

assuming you vote today to grant him immunity, the Justice

Department is going to ask for 20 days after we go to cour

anyway, and in which case we may not have Trafficante until the

end of November.

Mr. Fauntroy. I simply have a point of information to

raise. That is as to the kind of immunity that is requested

here.

You gave us a distinction between use immunity and

transaction immunity and I am wondering what would be the case

given the immunity that we are presenting, or offering, were

he to, what would you callhim, were he to be the person at

which the buck stops

and he says "look fellows, Giancana, well,

I was afraid they were going to get me, I am the fellow, what

does this immunity that we are granting do with respect to

that?

Mr. Blakey. This is use immunity, not transaction

immunity, which means if anybody else could prove it indepen-

Ident of our obtaining his confession, they could still prosecute

DocId: 32262107

Page 17

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 18

21

• 2

3

(202)

5548-2345

5

7

8

.9

10

11.

him, and this is going to be the reoccurring nature of every

witness

that we call, the closer we get to the heart of the

possible conspiracy, one of them is going to walk in here, as

Mr. McKinney said earlier, either the best of all possible

worlds or the worst of all possible worlds, I am not sure

which, and say I did do it. As to some of these people maybe

we should recommend perjury prosecutions because they are

probably liars. As to the others, we are going to have to

make a judgment when that happens or how we isolate the infor-

mation, so it does not interfere with our investigation ana

the possible prosecutions of those people at a later point in

time.

13

14

17

18

19

20

23

24

23

In other words, we are not giving him immunity from

prosecution.

He does not get a pardon like Richard Nixon got,

because he testifies before this Committee, all we do is in

effect take an illegally obtained confession from him.

It

is like, legally, in quotation marks, beating a confession.

out of him. That means that confession cannot be used against

him and nothing obtained from that confession can be used

against him. It is an inadmissible confession, is what it

amounts to. If we can get evidence independent of it we can

prosecute him.

Mr. Fauntroy. My view is that I am not interested in

prosecuting anybody, I simply want to know, and we can't really

operate on that basis, I take it?

ALDERSON REPORTING CEMPANY. INC

DocId:32262407

Page 18

---

## Page 19

22

2

3

8

BUILDING,

VASHINGTON.

10

11

12

13

14

5

07

18

19

20

21

23

24

25

Mr. Blakey. No, we cannot. We should operate on the

basis the function of this Committee is to find out what

happened, not to prosecute. We have a legislative function to

find out the facts and circumstances and the Congress has

given us the immunity from the use of testimony, not prosecu-

tion.

we are not a prosecutive agency and if we handled the

immunized testimony carefully with the security procedures we

have set up we will not interfere with any prosecutive agency.

consequently we should not be inhibited as prosecutors tradi-

tionally are in granting immunity.

That is the significance and the hope that this Committee

has, that none of the investigative agencies in the past have

had in pursuing these issues both in the king and Kennedy side.

Mr. Edgar. I just have a couple of questions. Can you

tell me the status of the two murder cases of the other two

witnesses who appeared before the Senate Committee?

Mr. Blakey. Both Giancana and Roselli are technically

open cases. I will tell you that a confidential informant

has told me that Trafficante is a suspect in the Giancana case,

I am sorry, the Roselli case.

Mr. Edgar. That was my next question, is Trafficante

suspect? I guess my third question is in light of that

speculation, does our granting immunity at this point at all

interfere with any of those investigations of the two murders?

Mr. Blakey. No. In other words, we will do it in

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

DocId: 32262407

Page 19

---

## Page 20

23

3

(202)

554-2345

7

8

REPORTERS

BUILDING,

10

11

12

13

?4

15

15

17

18

19

• 20

21-

22

23

24

25

executive session and the immunized testimony will be treated

literally as top secret material. It will not be disclosed

to people on the Committee who do not have a need to know and

it will not be disclosed outside of this Committee without

literally the full vote of this Committee and the Justice

Department will be given an opportunity to segregate

its

evidence now over a 20 day period if they want it, so that

they can show the independent character of their investigations.

They can date

taking everything that they have and that, they

had the day before we granted him immunity and thus show the

independence of their investigation over any

testimony that

we might take up here.

The Chairman. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I presume that you are operating on the assumption that

the likelihood of his not cooperating is very great?

Mr. Blakey. Well, John Hornbeck, who is prepareing the

interrogation, said in jest, this won't take long. His

estimate, frankly in his estimation, John's background is that

of an organized crime prosecutor, he was once involved in

prosecuting Roselli -- is Mr. Trafficante will not cooperate

with us.

I don't know what it is. Those kind of witnesses I

believe when they take the stand and begin talking, I think

there is a substantial chance they will not, in which case we

will have a hearing for more than ten or 15 minutes on either

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32262407

Page 20

---

## Page 21

24

2

3

1

5

6

10

: 12

3

15

en

17

18

19

20

22

23

24

25

the 2nd or the 3rd, there is also I believe substantial chance

he will come in and start talling us what happened.

I am

dying to find out.

Mr. McKinney. So are we.

The Chairman. On that point, let's discuss the scenario

of it firstly, political implications also fo that spect of the

investigation.

That is a morning, in which firstly the presence will

be entitled to know who the witness is that is being called.

Mr. Blakey. We won't tell them. If Mr. Trafficante

wants to he is free to do so. His appearance would not be

announced. What would be announced, we would have a meeting

and if they recognized Trafficante in the hall, they would

find out about it, but there would be no duty on our part to

announce it.

We would begin it in open session and then we would close

it, then the witness would appear.

Mrs. Burke. He would have a right to oppose it being

closed?

Mr. Blakey. No.

Mrs. Blake. He would not?

Mr. Blakey. He couls ask that it be open but that is a

decision that is entirely up to the Committee. He does not

have the right to have it open and indeed the House Rules say

that it should be closed beause it would defame, degrae and.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32262407

Page 21

---

## Page 22

25

2

3

5

6

20024

10

11

12

13

14

15

lớ

17

18

19

20

21

23

24

25

incriminate.

The Chairman. Assuming, let's say, the scenario con-

tinues as you indicated a little while ago, that in five, ten

at the most 15 minutes, there is nothing to prevent his :

attorney from going outside saying to the press that my client

said nothing,

asserted his constitutional rights and so forth.

In that vein are you prépared at this point to go to the mat

with him in terms of immunity?

Mr. Blakey. Yes.

The Chairman. And is the issue that important in terms

of the investigation that we would look right and proper when

the matter comes out in court?

Mr. Blakey. Yes. There are two levels on it. We

clearly have an investigative predicate for calling him.

This

is not a sham or a circus

witness. We have honest: questions

to ask him, that we would ask him honest questions.... If he

claims his privilege of self-incrimination and then it is

served on him, a valid immunity order is no longer privileged

to answer.

If he insists on not answering, it will indeed become

public because the scenario would involved a decision on the

Committee's part at that point to take him down to the District

Court for civil contempt and he would be ordered to testify and

if he did not testify he would be immediately remanded to

custody of the Attorney General. That means we would then be

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId:32262407 Page

22

---

## Page 23

26

1

2

3

6

10

12

13

14

15

1á

18

19

: 20

22

23

*24

25

in the Court of Appeals within 30 to 60 days and the Supreme

Court at least on a right of certiorari within 60 to 90 days.

The Chairman. On that point, I guess this is my concern.

At the point where we engage in that process with the

courts, the court will ascertain from us at this point what

it is you are attempting to elicit from this witness and so

forth and I guess I am concerned about the political ramifica-

tions that was referred to by Floyd as it relates to this

witness here in the House at that point.

I just want to be sure that when they read it in the

newspapers that it would be so very relevant that this Committee

would have been negligent had we done anything other than that.

Mr. Blakey. That is precisely it. If this is the

witness that we must test our legal processes on, they will

be well tested. It will be useful for us to have tested: and

had them sustained before

January or February.

If he wants to go to the mat with us we are going to have

to go to the mat with somebody soon anyway, I think. I would

prefer that we don't. I would prefer that all witnesses

cooperate with us. I cannot believe that that will happen.

If we are going to go to the mat with any witness, this is as

good a one as any and better sooner than later.

We are probably now as prepared for this witness as we

will be for any, both legally in terms of taking it all the

way through the courts and factually in terms of interrogating

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

DocId: 32262407

Page 23

---

## Page 24

27

2

: 3

5

6

7

9

10

•W. REPORTERS BUILDING,

12

13

15

lá

17

19

20

22

23

24

25

at this time.

The Chairman. I just have one other question. I would

like to go off the record for this question.

(Discussion off the record)

Mr. Blakey. The question has arisen as to whether there

was any previous conversation with Mr. Trafficante about

possible cooperation. It is my understanding that there was

and I think that when the letter is given to Mr. Irafficante

returning him before the full Committee pursuant to the last

subpoena that then will be the occasion for the lawyer to sit

down and talk with us.

My experience has been in the past that lawyers talk

an awful lot aboutwhat a witness is going to do, and that

gives them delay. It is like a motion for a continuation.

And I think what we need to do is to give him a point in time,

focus in which he can decide to cooperate with us. If his

response might be look, I will sit down and talk with you,

we don't need to do this publicly, we won't have a hearing

on

November 2nd or 3rd, we will indeed arrange to sit down and

get his testimony fully, although ultimately it is not adequate

for him just to sit down with John Hornbeck and me and the

Chairman, I think this Committee has got to hear from him

under oath, and we might as well find that out sooner rather

than later.

The Chairman. Mr. Fithian.

DocId: 32262407

Page 24

ALDersON REporTiNg COMpaNY. ING.

---

## Page 25

28

2

3

5

8

9

10

11.

REPORTERS BUTIDING

=

13

14

15

*15

17

i pr

300

19

9'20

21

22

23

24

25

Mr. Fithian. I guess I would raise an objection to

proceeding at all were we to fail in getting to see his testi-

mony from the Senate. I substantiate that feeling on the

following grounds.

To the average citizen, let alone Mr. Trafficante, the

Congress is the Congress, it is made up of two bodies but

it is still the Congress of the United States.

I think we would look awfully silly as a part of that.

process were we to have to proceed without knowing what the

other part of Congress had already done. So I would like to

inject at this time a rather serious reservation about the

process, about what you outline here, what you propose, unless

we are successful in dealing with our counterparts.

Mr. Blakey. I share your reservations. It was out of

that common concern that we are making an effort to get the

material from the Senate now and I would want to talk with

you assuming we can't get it from them ever, or we can get it

from them, but at a later point of time whether at that time

we should decide to postpone this.

Mr. Fithian. I think, if I may continue, I think I would

come on very strong in saying that the timing would be very

bad if in the hustle and bustle to get the emergy package out

Senate Chairman Inouye said we will sit down and negotiate

this but we are not going to get around to it right now, I

think then the timing of the interrogation of the witness, I

DocId: 32262407 Page 25

AIRESSON REFORTING COMPANY, INC.

---

## Page 26

29

2

3

7

8

# REPORTERS BUILDING,

WASHINGTON, D. C

•10.

11

12

14

17

18

1.9

20

21

22

24

I would find it difficult to justify the timing of the

interrogation if at, say, sometime later the Senate were

willing to make available to us what the testimony was.

Mr. Fithiany. I think it is clear, it seems clear to me,

we are headed in a different direction than the Senate

Com-

mittee was. I certainly would share the reservations of the

gentleman and would like to see if before you had Trafficante

here, but I am getting very concerned about us getting with-

helt

to death and when it comes to this damn Senate 'Committee

I think I have expressed my opinion on both the floor and to

the Chairman before that I cannot believe thatve are having

a hrder time from other bodies, which to me stands for corpse,

than we did with the FBI, CIA, Secret Service of anybody else

who have a clearly constitutional differentiation in their

establishment.

(Discussion off the record)

Mr. Fithiant. I also feel great concern that we get a

case under our belts so that when we come down to the end,

which happens to be in an election year and everything else,

that we have the machinery greased and working in fairly

orderly fashion.

Mr. Blakey. You have really only got about 12 months to

do this in. Any postponement takes a month.

Mr. Fithian. I understand that.

Mr. Blakey. It takes one-half of what we have available

DooId: 32262407 Page 26

ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

---

## Page 27

30

2

: 3

1

5

: 7.

10

12

13

15

S.V:

17

18

.19

20

21

23

24

23

to us.

MI. Fithian. I understand but I would personally object

if we had not utilized every possible lever to get at the

Senate information and clearly I don't think we have used

every possible lever.

Mr. Blakey. I have had dinner already twice with people

related to the Senate.

Mr. Fithian. They are higher stakes than trading in

that matter between Tip O'Neill and Bob Byrd. That is what

I am saying.

Mr. McKinney. I would suggest to the gentleman under

the previous counsel and previous Chairman and this Chairman

we have used some, and our temporary Chairman, I think Ritch

is not here unfortunately to speak for himself, I think he

got about as touch as an individual could get with the Senate

and we got nothing.

Mr. Blakey. I think I know a couple of quys over there.

I think if I talk to a couple of people right I will get it

and it is only a question of a matter of time.

Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman, again, may I just aski

what possible objection would the Senate Committee have to

making available to us testimony in executive session or

otherwise that may bear on our investigation?

Mr. Blakey. I think two. One, political, they are the

other body, and, two, I don't think they trust us.

I think

DocId: 32262407 Page 27

ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 28

31

1

2

3

5

6

REPORTERS BUILDING,

10

11

12

13

14

they believe in giving it to the Committee, I am being very

candid, giving it to this Committee is like not giving it to

the New York Times but the National Inquirer and they have

developed a real shield with the CIA over there where they

don't leak and to give it to us would be tantamount to leaking

it, so I think they finally decided they are not going to

give us the time of day and that process of convincing them

that that judgment was premature is going to take a little

bit of work.

Mr. Devine. Is that a staff decision or member decision?

Mr. Blakey. You really want me to answer that?

The Chairman. Have we had some cooperation though on

some things you needed over there?

Mr. Blakey. No a lot yet. This is the test case for

that.

17

7TH

STREET,

19

20

23

24

25

The Chairman. Sometime ago, as I recall, pursuant to

the same problem, I contacted Senator Inouye and it seems to

me he had designated someone there to sit down and work the

matter out.

Mr. Blakey. That is right. Now we are going to find.

out what work the matter out means. We have some specific

things we are asking for.

The Chairman. I think whatever point you feel is

necessary though we can talk with the Senator about them.

Mr. Blakey. All right.

DocId: 32262407.

Page 28

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 29

32

2

3

5

20024

ó

7

8

REPORTERS BUILDING,

MASHINGTON,

The Chairman. If you feel this is necessary.

Anything further?

Mr. Fithian. Other than my clear recording of my posi-

tion which will be to object at the appropriate time if we

have not seen the Senate testimony.

The Chairman. I think that is clearly on the record,

Mr. Fithian.

All right, can we have a motion with reference to

Trafficante?

Mr. Blakey. That is correct, the second motion on the

ist you have.

Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman, I move the Select Committee

authorize and direct Chief Counsel to apply to the court

pursuant to 18-USC-6002, et ceg, for an order conferring

immunity and compelling testimony from Santos Trafficante,

3r.

10

11

12

13

14

15

• 16

17

18

19.

20

21

22

23

24

The Chairman. I would suggest in all probability the

gentleman from the District is more familiar with reading

psalms.

Mr. Fauntroy. Amen.

(Laughter)

The Chairman. All right, properly moved that this reso-

lution be adopted. The Clerk will call the roll.

The Clerk. Mr. Stokes.

Mr. Stokes. Aye:

DocId: 32262407

Page 29

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

---

## Page 30

33

3

ITH STREET

. V.

REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINCTON, D: C. 20024 (202)

554-2345

5

10

12

13

14

15

•16

•17

18:

19

20

21

23

24

25

The Clerk.

Mr. Devine.

Mr. Devine. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Preyer.

The Chairman. Aye by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. McKinney•

Mr. McKinney. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy•

Mr. Fauntroy. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Thone.

(No response)

The Clerk. Mrs. Burke.

The Chairman. Aye by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Sawyer.

Mr. Sawyer. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Dodd.

(No response)

The Clerk. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Present.

The Clerk. Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar. No.

The Clerk. Seven ayes, one nay, one present.

Mr. Blakey.. We needed a two-thirds vote. It didn't pass.

The Chairman. Well, do proxies count?

Mr. Blakey. Proxies count but we need a two-thirds

vote.

You needed eight.

DocId: 32262407

Page) 30

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 31

34

2

3

5

6

•7:

ITH STREET, .

S.H. REPORTERS BUILDING,

10

11:

12

13

14

15

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Mr. Fithian. How am I recorded, Mr. Chairman?

The Chairman. How is Mr. Fithian recorded?

The Clerk. Mr. Fithian is recorded as present.

Mr. Fithian. I request unanimous consent to have my vote

recorded as aye:

The Chairman. Without objection, the gentleman's vote

is changed.

The Clerk. We have eight ayes and one nay.

The Chairman. Two-thirds having voted in the affirmative

the resolution is adopted.

Mr. Devine. Let the record show the reservations of the

gentleman.

The Chairman.

A clear reservation.

Anything further, Mr. Blakey?

Mr. Blakey. Let me add that this is a decision that

lets

us go to court, but even after we come back from court

the decision is not effective, that is immunity is not con-

ferred until it is communicated to the witness, so there are

still a lot of points of no return well beyond this one and

no decision ought to be final until you have passed the point

of no return which we have not yet passed.

The Chairman.

Is this procedure available to the public

once you have gone and gotten --

Mr. Blakey. No.

The Chairman. This is a secret procedure?

DocId: 32262407

Page 31

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC."

---

## Page 32

RG: 233

ENTRY:

BOX:

TAB #:

COPIEST

PPS.

/CLASS.

1010710476

file

614663

PP. 35-3

ACCESS RESTRICTED

The item identified below has been withdrawn from this file:

File Designation

Date

From

• .

To

In the review of this file this item was removed because access to it is

restricted. Restrictions on records in the National Archives are stated

in general and specific record group restriction statements which are:

available for examination. The item identified above has been withdrawn

because it contains:

WITHDRAWAL

Security-Classified Information

Otherwise Restricted Information

MLK

Authority

08/22/93

Date

Withdrawn by NSCA

John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992 (P.L. 102-526)

NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION

NA FORM 14PDO (1-8B)

DocId: 32262407 Page 32

---

## Page 33

BUILDING

12

13

14

÷15

17

18

19

20

23

24

25

Mr. Devine. Mr. Chairman, this gets to an issue that was

brought up very early in the creation of the rules of this

Committee. I don't even recall which of our Chairmen we had

or counsel at that time. But I think we are talking about an

investigative technique. It seems to me the development of

confidential informants by whatever device may be necessary,

is a matter of investigative technique that must be pretty

well left to the discretion and good judgment of our Chief

Counsel and our staff.

If, however, on the other hand, the issue before the

Committee here

today is whether or not we will authorize

payment of compensation for this man, I think it is a different

matter, but it seems to me primarily investigative technique

is one that should be left pretty well to the Chief Counsel

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32262407

Page 33

---

## Page 34

38

1

2

3

• 5

7

8

9

REPORTERS BUILDING:

HASHINGTON

11

72

13

14

15.

STREET

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

and the staff, rather than having us make a decision whether

such an such can be a confidential information, whether he

can follow a close surveillance or what. I think that is

administrative detail we shouldn't be concerned with as long

as it won't be embarrassing to the Committee.

Mr. Blakey. Mr. Devine, in the weekend conference we

explored much earlier on with the Committee some of the

investigative techniques that were open to us and we talked

about close surveillance as one of the possible techniques

and many of the Committee members at that time felt that the

conversation was too abstract and said let's don't ask me to

give you a yes or no now, bring us back a case in point.

Also under our rule, 7.5, this was included in our rules

I think by Congressman Dodd, it says prior to utilization

of any investigative techniques not otherwise covered by these

rules, such techniques will be discussed and voted upon by

the full Committee. So it is pursuant to our rules and

informal advice given by a number of Committee members that

this incident is being brought to the attention of the

Committee.

Mr. Devine. Okay.

Mr. McKinney. It seems to me on that weekend we

questioned giving you blanket authority to do this and

several members withheld and said bring us a specific example.

Mr. Devine. I apologize for not having been here for the

DocId:32262407

Page 34

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.".

---

## Page 35

39

2

3

5

6

TTH STREET, S

REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINCTON, D. C.

9

10

weekend conference.

MI. McKinney. I would entertain a move from the gentle-

man from Ohio to give this blanket authority which we weren't

prepared to do that weekend that would be legal under our

rules as I understand it.

Mr. Blakey. Yes.

Mr. Devine. With the admonition we will rely on the

good judgment of Chief Counsel and staff not to engage in

any conduct that might be embarrassing to the Committee and

if they have any question about it come to the Committee with

it.

12

13

14

15

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Mr. Fauntroy. I agree.

The Chairman. Let me ask a question. That weekend we

discussed the matter, the reference at that time was made to

a gentleman who in all réspects had a red neck type of

appearance and can fit right into a certain situation, is

this the same situation?"

Mr. Blakey. Yes. Am I right?

Mr. Lehner. Yes sir. This is a 34 year veteran of the

Atlanta Police Department.

Mr. Fauntroy. Move:

Mr. Devine. He speaks that Yankee dialect, does he?

The Chairman. The Chair will entertain a motion.

Mr. Lehner. I just wanted to add that we will have a

backup investigator by the name of Hack. We didn't put his

DocId: 32262407 • Page 35

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 36

40

2

3

5

name in the investigative technique resolution, so I would ask

that we amend the proposed resolution to include staff inves-

tigators Walker and Hack and Morris Davis.

Mr. Blakey. If the Committee feels that we do this on

a general basis, the language should be modified to make it

blanket authority and I leave that to the Committee's discre-

tion.

3.

REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON,

10.

12

: 13

15

17

19

20

23

24

25

The Chairman. I would think the indication here is that

you ought to have some general leeway in terms of this type of

investigative technique and I think the bottom line as Mr.

Devine says, so long as it is not in any manner that will

embarrass this Committee you ought to feel free to pursue

standard investigative technique.

MI. McKinney. Or obligates this Committee to any

exchange of monetary funds.

The Chairman. You would certainly have to come back to

the Committee for any type of monetary consideration.

MI. Blakey. Could I suggest the resolution read resolved,

"that pursuant to Committee Rule 7.5, the Committee approves

the close surveillance and investigative technique,"

and well

understands in the matter of legislative history if it

involves paying money we will come back to you, if it involves

a danger of embarrassment because it might be considered to

be illegal or immoral or fattening, that we will bring it to

your attention.

DoeId: 32262407 Page 36;

ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 37

41

2

3

5

7

7TH

STREET

01.

.N. REPORTERS BUILDING,

WASHINGTON, D.C.

10

12

13

14

15

17

18

19

20

21

23

24

25

The Chairman. Yes. Any objection to that language?

If not, can we have someone move it?

Mr. Edgar.

so move.

The Chairman. Properly moved that this resolution as

amendmed be adopted and the Clerk will call the roll.

The Clerk.

Mr. Stokes.

Mr. Stokes. Aye.

The Clerk.

Mr. Devine.

Mr. Devine. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Preyer.

The Chairman. Aye by proxy.

Mr. Blakey. I think the proxy was specific to the

previous language.

The Chairman. You are right, it does.

Mr. Blakey. It is probably no longer valid.

The Chairman. Or motions pertaining thereto.

Mr. Blakey. I stand corrected.

Mx. Fauntroy. Thank you.

The Chairman. Okay, Aye by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. McKinney.

Mr. McKinney. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy.

MI. Fauntroy. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Thone.

(No response)

DocId:32262407

Page 37

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 38

42

2

3

20028 (202) 554-2345

=

10

REPORTERS BUILDING,

1.12

13

4

1S

15

117.

18

19

20

21

23

24

25

The Clerk. Mrs. Burke.

The Chairman. Aye by proxy.

The Clerk.

Mr. Sawyer.

Mr. Sawyer. Aye.

The Clerk.

Mr. Dodd.

(No response)

The Clerk.

Mr. Ford.

(No response)

The Clerk.: Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian.

Aye.

The Clerk.

Mr. Edgar.

MI. Edgar., Aye.

The Clerk. Nine ayes.

The Chairman. The motion, therefore, is adopted.

Anything furhter?

Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, only one simple item of

information. That the staff has under consideration, and I

bring it simply to the Committee's attention, that we have

been discussing the probable or perhaps best strategy to

employ in subpoening some of the organized crime offenders

and it may well be what we might want to do before you go home

is give you the total list of all the people that we think we

will want to hear from and subpoena them all at one time.

•It

may also be, and this is a matter still of staff discussion,

we might want to get authorization for all of the immunities

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING

DocId: 32262407 Page 38

---

## Page 39

43

2

3

#

20024

(202)

7

8

STREET,

•N. REPORTERS BUILDING,

HASHINCTON,

10

12

13

14

5

• 1á

18

19

20

at one time and then make the actual execution of them con-

tingent upon subsequent events.

One of the problems. we have with this 20 day delay by

the Department of Justice is if we get up in close investiga-

tive work up here and they can put a 20 day delay on us at

any time, it may well impede our work, so this is just some-

thing that we are thinking abot now that I want to bring to

your attention. We may have for you a large list of possible

subpoenas and a large list of possible immunities in the

organized crime area even before you go home. I don't know

that is the wise thing to suggest to you, it is still some-

thing we are thinking about.

Other than that there is no further business to bring

before the Committee at this time.

The Chairman. Okay, there being nothing further, this

meeting is then adjourned, subject to the call of the chair.

Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the Committee was adjourned,

subject to the call of the Chair.)

23

24

25

DocId: 32262407

Page 39

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

---

## Page 40

K

10/20/1?

RESOLUTION TO DESIGNATE COUNSEL

RESOLVED:

That the following counsel are, pursuant

to Committee Rule 4 and H. Res. 222, designated

counsel to take statements under oath relating to

the investigation into the death of Martin Luther

King; and are the only counsel so designated:

Robert Lehner

Gene Johnson

Michael Eberhardt

Melvin Kreidman

Alan Hausman

G. Robert Blakey

I. Charles Mathews

James Wolf

MAK Exhibit *2 -

DocId: 32262407 Page 40

---

## Page 41

10/20/17

JFK

ROSENSON IMMUNITY RESOLUTION

RESOLVED:

That the Select Committee authorizes and

directs the Chief Counsel to apply to court pursuant

to 18 U.S.C. $6002 et. seg. for an order conferring

immunity and compelling testimony from Randolph Rosenson.

TRAFFICANTE IMMUNITY RESOLUTION

RESOLVED:

That the Select Committee authorizes and directs

the Chief Counsel to apply to court pursuant to 18 U.S.C.

$6002 et. seg. for an order conferring immunity and

compelling testimony from Santos Trafficante, Jr.

INVESTIGATIVE TECHNIQUE RESOLUTION

RESOLVED:

That pursuant to Committee Rule 7.5, the

Committee approves the close.

surveillance involving

Staff Investigator Walker and Morris Davis.

investigatie technique.

DocId: 32262407 Page 41

-JFK Exhibir *10 -

---