Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
From: PHILLIPS, DAVID ATLEE
Document date: 25/4/78 00:00
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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180-10131-10327

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/19/20

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER: 180-10131-10327

RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014726

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: HSCA

FROM:

PHILLIPS, DAVID ATLEE

TO:

TITLE :

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

04/25/1978

105

..DESCRIPTION

CIA, METHODOLOGY

PHILLIPS, DAVID A., TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE

OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, INDENTIFICATION

AND...

OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO

MEXICO

DURAN, SYLVIA

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Secret

RESTRICTIONS: 1A; 1B

CURRENT STATUS:

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

01/01/2003

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

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Stenographic Transcript Of

HEARINGS

Before The

Executive Session

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Tuesday, April 25, 1978

Witness - David Atlee Phillips

Washington.D.C.

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc.

Official Reporters

300 Seventh St., S. W. Washington, D. C.

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House of Representatives

Subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy

of the Select Committee on Assassinations

Washington, D. C.

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Tuesday, April 25, 1978

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TUESDAY, APRIL 25, 1978

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House of Representatives,

Subcommittee on the Assassina-

tion of John F. Kennedy of:

the Select Committee on.

Assassinations,

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• The subcommittèe met, pursuant to notice, at 11:05 a.m.,

in room 2200, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Richardson

Preyer (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Preyer, Dodd and Devine.

Staff Members Present: M. Goldsmith, E. Berning,

D. Hardway, J. Blackmer, W. Triplett, E. Lopez and G. Fonzi.

Mr. Preyer. The committee will resume its hearing.

Mr. Phillips, thank you for being here today.. I know

that it was an inconvenience to you and we appreciate your

working out your schedule so you could be here.

MI. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Preyer. :

We will ask you to be sworn, sir.

Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you will give to

the committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing

but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Phillips. I do.

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TESTIMONY OF DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS

Mr. Preyer.. Thank you, Mr. Phillips.

'I believe you have been given a copy of the rules of the

committee.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. Preyer. At this time I will give a brief statement

concerning the subject of the investigation which we give to

every witness.

House Resolution 222 mandates the committee to conduct

a full and complete investigation and study of the circum

stances surrounding the assassination and death of President

John F. Kennedy in determining whether the existing laws of

the United States concerning the protection of the President

and the investigatory jurisdiction and capability of agencies

and departments

are adequate in their provisions and

enforce-

ment and whether there was full disclosure of evidence and

information among the agencies and departments of the United

States Government and whether any evidence or information not

in the possession of an agency or department would have been

of assistance in investigating the assassination and why such

information was not provided or collected by that agency of

department and to make recommendations to the House if the

Select Committee deems it appropriate for the amendment of

existing legislation and the enactment of new legislation.

The Chair will recognize Mr. Goldsmith for the beginning

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of the questioning.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Phillips, for the record would you state your full

name and address, please.

Mr. Phillips. David Atlee Phillips,

Bethesda, Maryland, 20034.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, are you a former employee

of the CIA?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I am.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give the committee a summary

of the positions that you held while you were at the agency?

Mr. Phillips. I was recruited by the CIA as a part time

assistant in 1950 in Chile where I was a newspaperman. I

continued in that capacity for some four years and became a

full time intelligence officer in 1954

In 1955 and 1956

I was in Cuba.

In 1957 and 1958

In 1959 and 1960 I was in Cuba again.

During the remainder of 1960 and 1961 I was in the

Washington task force which worked on the Bay of Pigs opera-

tion.

In late 1961 I was assigned to Mexico City.

In early 1965 I became the Chief of Station

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I returned to Washington in 1967 and became the Chief of

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Cuban Operations for the CIA through 1969.

In 1970 I was the Chief of Station in

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In 1971 I went to

where I was Chief of Station.

In mid 1973 I was returned to Washington to become the

Chief of the Western Hemisphere Division of the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did you retire from the agency?

Mr. Phillips.

On the 9th of May 1975.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you affiliated with the Retired

Intelligence Officers Association?

Mr. Phillips. Yes:

I am the founder of that organiza-

tion.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Are you the president of that organiza-

tion?

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Phillips.: I am

sorry; sir.

MI Goldsmith. Are you presently the president of that

organization?

Mr. Phillips. No, I am not the president. I am a member

of the board of directors.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you explain to the committee what

the purpose of that association is?

MI. Phillips. In 1975 I was personally concerned about

what I thought was happening to the U.S. intelligence

community.

The clandestine operator is perhaps the only

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American that does

not have a constituency and so I decided

to form an organization of former intelligence men and women

from all services to try. to play some sort of constructive

role in the deliberations of intelligence in the future.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, have you spoken to anyone

at the agency in reference to your testimony today?

Mr. Phillips.. Have I spoken about my testimony today

with anyone at the agency? One person, Mr. Robert Shaw.,

because before I knew I was going to be asked here we had

plans to have lunch together and I told him that I had been

asked to come down here and we decided that we would not have

on the agenda any discussion of what we talk about down here

and we did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. So you in no way discussed what you

thought might have been the substance of your testimony here

today?

Mr. Phillips. Absolutely not.

Mr. Goldsmith. And other than Mr. Shaw there was no one

at the agency that you spoke to in reference to your testimony?

Mr. Phillips. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. At this time I would ask the clerk to

show Mr. Phillips Exhibit 94. This is a letter from the

Acting Director of this committee to the chairman of this

committee. Would you please read.

that exhibit.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

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Mr. Goldsmith. You have read the letter?

Mr. Phillips. I have, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. And do you understand the letter?

Mr. Phillips. I understand it. It gives me complete

freedom to discuss things despite my secrecy with the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. So that you would be obliged to testify

fully and truthfully before this committee.

Mr. Phillips. Absolutely.

MI. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, is it true that, it is

agency policy for case officers, for example, to have

pseudonyms?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Of course all case officers have

a pseudonym.

Mr. Goldsmith. Will you explain to the committee what

the purpose of that pseudonym would be?

MI. Phillips. A pseudonym is used so that on records

such as pay papers, all sorts of records that go back and

"forth in a pouch in cable traffic you can refer to a person

(without actually using his true name. It is a registered

thing that a person keeps throughout his career unless for

some reason it is blown, unless it becomes known publicly,

in which case the pseudonym is changed.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would the pseudonym also be used by a

case officer when the case officer contacts an agent?.

MI. Phillips. Very rarely. I don't know that anyone

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ever did it. Case officers would not use a pseudonym. A

pseudonym is always a first name, a middle initial and a last

name.

A pseudonym can be Jim Smith.

Mr. Goldsmith. So you would distinguish between a

pseudonym and an operational alias, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. Absolutely.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was your pseudonym while you were

at the agency?

Mr. Phillips. I havé two. My last one was Michael C.

Choaden.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what was your earlier one?

Mr. Phillips. Paul D. Langevin.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did you assume the second one, if

you recall?

Mr. Phillips. Oh, I am going to take a stab at this.

I don't really recall.

Mr

• Goldsmith. - Fine.: Do you recall which operational

aliases you have used in the past?

Mr. Phillips. ' No, because I would guess that in 25 years

that I may have used 200 - a hundred, say.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would it be agency policy for an opera-

tional alias to be registered?

MI. Phillips. Not necessarily formally. A pseudonym,

yes, is registered and you push the buttons and it comes out

¡of a machine. An alias might just go in the files, it might

on a dau

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not necessarily be registered formally.

Mr. Goldsmith. In which files would an alias go into?

Mr. Phillips. In the operational files. An officer

might use an alias on a one time basis and use the name Jim

Smith on a one time basis and it would only be in that one

file.

Some officers have a habit of using an alias over a

period of time because it is something that they can remember.

I remember that I had one alias I used on more than one occa-

sion which was the first name of one of my good friends in high

school and the last name of one of my good friends in high

school so that I could remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. So your testimony then is that the agency

does not have essentially a registered index of operational

aliases, is

that correct?

Mr. Phillips. If they do, I was not aware of it.

Mr. Goldsmith. And your testimony would be that to the

extent that there was any record of these aliases it would be

in the files. By files do you mean files that were located in

the local station or at headquarters?

Mr. Phillips. Both. I think I should make it clear that.

in the cases of aliases used by foreigners that probably those

aliases go into a central file. AKA, also known as, and there

might be a number but in the case of American staff officers

it might be in the file in the station, it might be in a file

at the headquarters because the paper was duplicated. It might

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be in both places.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, did you previously give

testimony before this committee?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was that in November?

November 27, 1976?

Mr. Phillips. The formal testimony before the chairman

I believe was on a Saturday. I am not sure of the date. I

also talked to the staff the day before. I remember it was

the Thanksgiving holidays.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was that in 1976?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, it was.

Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of review I would like to

go over with you and with the committee the substance of your

testimony that day.

First you gave testimony pertaining to the nature of the

CIA's Mexico City station's surveillance and operations

against the Soviet and Cuban embassies and consulates specif-

ically with regard to their photo surveillance operation and

the wiretapping operations. Do you recall giving testimony

to this effect?

Mr. Phillips. I did to the extent that I was aware of

the details but certainly I didn't talk about it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Understood. And at that time you also

gave testimony regarding the procedures for delivering tapes

from the outside surveillance unit to the Mexico City station,

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for getting tapes transcribed, for erasing and reusing tapes,

for dealing with conversations of special interests, for

routing transcripts of conversations contained on the tapes

to appropriate officers at the Mexico City station. Do you

recall giving testimony to this effect?

ME. Phillips. I do, to the degree that I knew the

detail, and I recall at the same time that I gave the names

of persons who knew better than I what the details were, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. At that time you also gave testi-

mony regarding the criteria that is applied for when an

intercepted conversation was considered sufficiently important

to warrant sending a cable to Washington, D. C.

Mr. Phillips. I

don't recall that but I am sure that I

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Mr. Goldsmith. And then specifically there was a discus-

sion in reference to the oswald visit to Mexico City. Do you

recall that?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I do.

Mr. Goldsmith. For the purposes of further clarification,

you gave testimony regarding the substance of a transcript that

you reviewed and it pertained to an intercept of an Oswald

conversation. Specifically, the intercept was linked to Oswald

prior to the assassination and the particular time involved was

early October, late September of 1963. Do you recall giving

testimony to that effect?

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Mr. Phillips. Yes, and I believe that then I finally

came down in that testimony on the fact that I believe I

recall seeing a transcript after the assassination which

substantiated the story told by

a Mr. Celia Duran from the

Cuban embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith, We will try to work this step by step.

I will get to that.

Mx. Phillips. Okay.

Mr. Goldsmith. My recollection is that you discussed

two intercepts and two transcripts but first was the transcript

that you reviewed in early October of 1963 and the substance

of that and the thrust of that conversation was more or less

as follows: Oswala: was saying to the Célia that he, spoke to

at the embassy, What have you heard about my visa? What news

do you have?

3r.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, I recall.

Mr. Goldsmith.

You also made the statement to the effect

What's wrong? Why don't.you do this?. That should be a state-

ment to Oswald. Do you recall making that statement?

Mr. Phillips. Sif, I don't.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall indicating that your opinion

was that Oswald intimated to the Soviets, well, you really

should talk to me?

Mr. Phillips.. Yes, I recall that.

Mr. Goldsmith.

I see that you are hesitating somewhat.

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For purposes of refreshing your memory I would like briefly

to review that portion of the transcript with you.

Will the clerk hand the witness a copy.

Specifically I wöuld ask you to refer to page 51, line 12.

- Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Read that paragraph.

Mr. Phillips.

At the beginning of line 12?

Mr. Goldsmith. Starting with line 12 to line 21.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall giving that testimony?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. If I may mention the context

and the circumstances under which it was given, the reason that

I was called on that holiday weekend is that there was a story

in the Washington-Post by Mr. Ron Kessler and that story came

out in effect saying that I confirmed the fact that oswald

had offered something to the Soviets and that information

about that first message was not passed to the Warren Commis-

sion, so those are the circumstances under which I was called

out.

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I was working under the fact that I didn't think Mr.

Kessler's report without our various conversations on the

subject was an accurate reflection of what I thought and so

that paragraph was saying in trying to recall these things

that perhaps it was my total perception in looking back one

Lee Harvey Oswald was there trying to get a visa and my

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feeling that he was saying to them, Yes, you should give me

one. Thinking about that - and I think I might have mentioned

this -- some of that may very well have come from the fact

that afterwards I read that when he went to Mexico City he

went with some papers to show them that he was a member of

the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and so forth.

MI. Goldsmith. I believe, Mr. Phillips, that you did

at that time make a distinction between your recollection that

was based upon the transcript that you reviewed in October of

1963 and events subsequent to the assassination. We will get

into that distinction later on.

Mr. Phillips. All right.

Mr. Goldsmith. In addition you also testified before

the committee about an intercept that came to your attention

after the assassination; specifically it was a conversation

between Silla Duran and somebody else and it was about Oswald.

Do you recall that?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I do.

Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the transcript, the sub

stance of your testimony was that it was treated in the normal

way; the transcript was routed to a Mr. Manell who was in

charge of Soviet operations in Mexico City and then later to

you, and the reason it was routed to you was because of the

Cuban mention in it. Do you recall giving testimony to that

effect?

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Mr. Phillips: Yes. I am not sure that I said I was

absolutely positive of that but that is the way it should

have happened and I had that recollection.

Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of further clarification

why don't we take a look at page 57, line 6, and have you

read that section. Read through to line 10, please.

Mr: Phillips. All right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you read that? Do you recall

giving testimony to the effect of the substance that I just

summarized for you?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I do.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine.

Mr. Phillips. If I may add something there.

Mr. Goldsmith, You will get a chance to go into the

details later in the hearing.

This is primarily for back

ground purposes.

Mr. Phillips. I see. Very good.

Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the transcript, you also

gave testimony regarding a transcriber's note that the person

speaking spoke in very bad Russian and you had the understand-

ing that the person speaking was an American. Do you recall

giving testimony to that effect?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I do.

Mr. Goldsmith:: You also gave testimony with regard to

the cable that was sent from Mexico City to CIA headquarters

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and you indicated that this cable was sent approximately three

days after you first saw the intercept. Do you recall giving

testimony to that effect?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I do.

Mr. Goldsmith. And you also indicated that in fact you

signed off on the cable bedause of the reference to a Cuban

situation. Do you recall that?

Mr. Phillips. I recall that I said I probably signed off

on it. It would have been part of my job and so forth, yes,

but I recall it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. At that time you also gave testi-

mony explaining to the committee why the cable was sent out

several days after the intercept came in.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. And specifically you indicated that

Mr. Manell was busy, he sometimes procrastinated, and in fact

you considered the cable important and for this reason you

made some inquiries of him as to whether the cable had been

sent. Do you recall that?

Mx. Phillips. Something along that line, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the contents of the cable

the substance of your testimony was that it referred to Lee

Henry Oswald, it gave the physical description that did not

fit Mr. Oswald and it

indicated that a contact with the Soviet

embassy had been made in reference to a visa.. Do you recall

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giving testimony to that effect?

Mr. Phillips. I do. At a later date I decided that I

was wrong about the Henry originating in that cable.

Mr. Goldsmith. We will get into that later on.

Mr. Phillips. All right.

Mr. Goldemith. I would like to indicate for the record

that in the event that I do not cover a question or raise a

question that permits you to answer what is on your mind, at

the end of the hearing you will be given five minutes to

address the committee to raise any additional points.

Mr. Phillips. Very good

Mr. Goldsmith: Similarly, at the time of your testimony

you gave testimony to the effect that the cable made reference

to a photograph, it gave an incorrect description of Oswald

and that the reason for this was that either

or

had put together a transcript of a man calling

the Soviet embassy about a visa with a picture of that man

who had been to the Soviet embassy so that a transcript and

a picture had been put together and I believe your testimony

was that in this case 1 and l did not equal 2.

Mr. Phillips.: That is correct.

Mr. Goldsmith. You also gave testimony regarding the

cable that came from headquarters

to the Mexico City station

on or about October l6 and that cable had the correct name of

Oswald according to your testimony. It gave the background

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of Oswald, his marriage to a Soviet citizen, his military

background. Further, it gave a correct description of Oswald.

I believe you indicated that the cable originated before

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Oswald's contact with the Soviet embassy. Do you recall

giving testimony to that effect?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I do.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like at this point to go into

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First turning to the area of tapes, how long were tapes

retained as a matter of routine procedure in Mexico City in

1963 prior to the tapes beingerased for reuse, if you know?

Mr. Phillips.' All right. I must tell you that my

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doing. I was never involved in the business of handling the

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tapes per se, I never visited the place where the transcribing

was done and so forth but my recollection was that they were

usually kept for a couple of weeks or so and then they were

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and reused again. I did not actually deal with the tapes.

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Mr. Goldsmith. After the assassination did the Mexico

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City station have in its possession a tape of Lee Harvey

Oswald's voice?

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Mr. Phillips. Not to my knowledge.

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to give to Mr. Phillips a stack of materials that we received

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from the CIA.

I would ask you to refer to CIA document. No. 198.

For

the record I will indicate that these are materials that you

received from the Central Intelligence Agency yesterday and

the agency has made an effort to provide us with the documents

that we need. At the same time they have asked that we make

every effort to keep these documents secure and account for

them. In that regard they have numbered every document that

they have given to us and rather than introduce these documents

into the record I will simply be referring to the document by

the number that the agency has assigned to it. So in this

case we are referring to CIA No. 198.

Mr. Phillips. This is a cable, yes.

Am I correct that this is a cable?

Mr. Goldsmith: Yes.

Mr. Phillips. And it is the red number 198 that you are

referring to at the bottom.of the page.

Mr. Goldsmith. That is correct. I ask if you would

please read through this cable.

Mr. Phillips. All right, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now I believe you have identified this as

a cable. What is the date of the cable?

Mr. Phillips. 23 November 1963.

Mr. Goldsmith.: I

would like to refer your attention to

the second paragraph, specifically the second sentence of that

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paragraph, and ask you to reread that, please.

Mr. Phillips. All right, sir.

MI. Goldsmith. Now according to the sentence it indicates

that the station is unable to compare voices because the first

tape was erased prior to the receipt of the second call. Does

this suggest to you that one tape was still in existence at

the time that the cable was sent? In other words, the cable

does not say all tapes re Oswald have been erased, it indicates

we are unable to compare voices because the first tape was

erased prior to the receipt of the second call.

Mr. Phillips. Yes. Obviously it means we cannot compare

voices because we do not have two.

Mr. Goldsmith. Therefore implying that there may still

be one.

MI. Phillips.

That reading could be put in there, I

..."

suppose, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Based upon this, to your knowledge did the

Mexico City station after the assassination have in its posses-

sion a tape of Lee: Harvey Oswald's voice or someone whom they

thought to be Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Phillips: "Not

to my knowledge.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now I believe paragraph 1 of this cable

makes reference to a conversation involving delia Duran on

September 28 and also two unidentified North Americans and

the

cable suggests that the person who contacted the Cuban

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and Soviet embassies on September 28 is Oswald. What I would

like to ask you is; do you think it was unusual for the first

tape to be erased quite so soon? In other words, one contact

is made on September 28, another is made on 1 October and

within four days the first tape is erased. Is there anything

unusual about that?

Mr. Phillips. well, it is a question of judgment of the

people who are handling the case how important something is.

I do know that it was routine to erase tapes so that they

could be used again and I do know that the Soviet and Cuban

embassies, there were a number of unusual visitors over the

years.

Some of them seemed to be sort of kooky, some of them

you didn't quite understand. Looking back I certainly agree

with this.

This is the kind of thing that should not have

been erased.

I don't think it was highly unusual, no.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to refer you now to CIA

document No. 239 and specifically in the middle of the page

I believe it says CS Comment and there is an asterisk and a

sentence after that. Would you please read

that sentence.

Mr. Phillips. * "Station to erase routine tapes. Soviet

embassy keeping normal two week lag."

Mr. Goldsmith. So according to this cable and also to

your testimony, the normal lag would be two weeks and yet we

have an erasure of cable, the Oswald tape, within several days

l after its receipt. Based on that do you regard the erasure

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of the first Oswald tape as unusual; not in keeping with

routine procedure?

Mr. Phillips. No, it is not. The routine procedure I

now read here was a normal two week lag so doing it earlier

was certainly not keeping within the routine procedure.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know who the person would be that

the committee might address regarding the specific tape?

Mr. Phillips. I believe in my previous -- either in my

testimony before the committee or in my day long session with

the staff members before I gave them the names of people who

I thought would be knowledgeable of that. They were a Mr.

Miss Ann Goodpasture and possibly Mr. Robert

Shaw.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Turning for a moment to Miss Goodpasture,

what were her responsibilities at the Mexico City station?

Mr. Phillips. Well, she was an experienced CIA officer

and so she had a number of responsibilities across the board

as I recall them. Without making a deprication she was sort

of the Girl Friday to the Chief of the Station in the sense

that he often called on her to handle a lot of things.

Specifically though, however, I do recall that she did have

the job of some sort of liaison with the outside unit where

these tapes were done. I believe I recall her coming in and

out of our office with suitcases - not suitcases but brief-

cases that might have had tapes or transcripts or something

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Mr. Golasmith." Is it fait to say that Winn Scott, the

Station Chief, relied on Ann Goodpasture a great deal?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I think that is an accurate state-

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Mr. Goldsmith. Was she in any way given more responsi-

bilities than the case officers at the Mexico City station?

Mr. Phillips. I certainly don't believe that she was

given operational responsibility -- that is, with cases that

were being run and that sort of thing. Since she enjoyed the

confidence of the Chief of Station, perhaps he did give her

some assignments non-operational in aspect that might be more

important than some of the case officers, yes, but

she herself

of course was at that time certainly a middle grade officer.

Mr. Goldsmith. ' I would like now to refer you to CIA

document. No. 206 which is a cable dated 23 November 1963 and

I ask you to read paragraph 4 which can be found on page 208.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. First of all, Douglas J. Fineglass, that

was the pseudonym for Mr. Boris Teredoff, was it not?

Mr. Phillips. I do not recall that it was. I remember

the last time I testified I thought it might have been a man

ramed George something.

Mr. Goldsmith. Misco?

Mr. Phillips. Misco. I do recall the name that you are

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mentioning but I canno- say definitely that that is his

pseudonym.

Mr. Goldsmith." Fine. In any event the cable here is

dated after the assassination and it indicates that Mr.

Fineglass, whoever he is; says that Oswald is identical with

the person in paragraph 1 speaking broken Russian, a call

from the Cuban embassy, 28 September, to the Soviet embassy.

There again we have another suggestion in the CB cable chapter

that after the assassination the agency in fact did have a

tape of Oswald's voice. Based upon paragraph 4, would that

be your judgment? **:

Mr. Phillips. *No, simply because of my firm recollection

that a tape did not exist after the assassination.

I am not

sure in my mind, counselor. I cannot remember whether the h

reason that we had Oswald on tape was because we were covering

a Cuban phone and he happened to call the Soviet embassy or

whether we were covering a soviet phone and picked him up that

way but I do go back to a very, very brief early message of

his contacts, not the one about celia Duran, so a tape would

have existed at one time of that I would think.

Mr. Goldsmith Would that tape have been in existence

after the

assassination?

Mr. Phillips. My recollection is that it was not in

existence.

Mr. Goldsmith.. I would like now to ask you to refer to

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CIA document No. 177. Please read that cable.

MI. Phillips. Yes, sir.

MI. Goldsmith.: What is the date on this cable?

Mr. Phillips.: The date of the cable seems to be 9 october.

Mr. Goldsmith. 9 October would be the day that this

cable arrived at the CIA headquarters, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, and since it is a routine cable it

might have been sent the day before or the same day.

Mr. Goldsmith: Fine.

Mr. Phillips. Probably the day before, I guess.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is this the cable that Mexico City station

sent to CIA headquarters in reference to Oswald?

Mr. Phillips. It is the one I recall being two pieces

that turned out not to fit, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: Is this the cable that you more of less

prompted

¡to send?

MI. Phillips. Yes. I would not like to over-emphasize

my role in prompting them to do it though but it 1s the one

that I recall that was delayed in going and as I recall finally

went out.

actually put the cable together as I

recall it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Okay. I would like now for you to lo0k

at CIA document No. "10 that is about to be handed to you. It

is in the brown folder.

Would you read through that cable?

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Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. The language in the two cables appears

to be identical, however the date in cable and CIA document

No. 10 is 8 October. Would you explain to the committee the

difference between the

copy that appears in CIA No. 10 and

the copy that appears in No. 177?

Mr. Phillips. This message of 8 October appears to be

one leaving the Mexico City station going to headquarters and

dated 8 October. Since it is a routine cable it would have

been processed during the evening by the communications people

and sent on to Washington in the next day or late that night,

so this appears to be the Mexico City copy of the cable we

looked at a moment ago.

Mr. Goldsmith.. And the other would be the copy as it was

received by headquarters?

Mr. Phillips. That is correct.

Mr. Goldsmith. First drawing your attention to the names

that appear on the cable in the upper left hand corner of CIA

|No. 10, it says L. A. Dillinger. I believe that refers to

At the bottom of the page authenticating also

indicates I. A. Dillinger and the right hand portion of the

page indicates W..C. Curtis. I believe that was Mr. Scott.

Mr. Phillips."*Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: And according to your testimony you

indicated signing off on this cable. Does your name appear

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anywhere on this cable?

Phillips.

It does not.

Mr. Goldsmith, Is there any way you could explain that

to the committee?

Mr. Phillips. Well, obviously I didn't sign off on it.

When I was giving that previous testimony I was saying that

under routine circumstances a cable that had to do with Cuba

might have gone to me. This cable here has to do with Soviet

matters rather than the Cuban aspect of it and so for that

reason it would not have necessarily been necessary for me to

be interested in Cuba to sign it off.. I do recall seeing this

cable before it was sent and perhaps that is the reason that

I thought I signed off. I recall seeing it in its typed form

before it went to

the conmunications people but I obviously

did not sign it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does the cable in any way refer to Oswald

as Lee Henry Oswald?

Mr. Phillips. No, it does not.

Mx. Goldsmith. Is there any reference in there specifi-

cally to a contact by Oswald with the soviet embassy of

consulate in reference to a visa?

Mr. Phillips. No, there is not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now I believe in your testimony before

the committee in November of 1976 you indicated that you had

signed the cable, that it referred to Oswald as Lee Henry

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Oswald and that it indicated that he contacted the Soviet

embassy in reference to a visa.

"Tr.

Mr. Phillips. In light of that I am quite sure that my

memory was inaccurate when I said that and that in looking at

this now certainly it is the cable that I had in mind when I

talked about that, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. But you are certain that this cable was

shown to you or if not this cable, the contents of the draft

cable that

wrote up prior to sending this one - you

are certain that that was shown to you?

Mr. Phillips.""I think I testified before that I think

that

actually prepared the cable and my recollec-

tion was that she left it on his desk and he was her superior

and husband and then out it went. I see by this not only did

she prepare it but she was the authenticating author as well

so it might have gone out to the station.

was out

of the office or something because his name does not seem to

be on it.

Mr. Goldsmith. But in any event this is the cable that

you

read?

Mr. Phillips.' I am convinced that it is.

Mr. Goldsmith. A draft of it prior to the cable going

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Mr. Phillips. I am convinced it is.

_Goldsmith. „Would you please refer now to CIA No. 183.

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Mr. Phillips. Should I read it, sir?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, please do.

Mr. Phillips. All right, sir. I have not read it

thoroughly but I do recall this message.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is this the cable that CIA headquarters

sent to Mexico City station responding to the cable of 10/9

from Mexico City station?

Mr. Phillips.' It is my understanding that that is

correct, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now reading the first paragraph of this

cable which is dated 11 October 1963 it refers to Oswald as

Lee Henry Oswald.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Your testimony in November of 1976, as

you have indicated before, is that the cable that came back

from headquarters corrected Oswald's name as that name was

sent up from the Mexico City station to headquarters yet this

====

cable from CIA headquarters refers to Oswald as Lee Henry

Oswald in fact, not using his proper name. In light of that

is there any way that you can explain the inconsistency

between your testimony and the cable?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I feel quite sure about

it now.

I

have the recollection Lee Henry Oswald and I somehow came up

with the idea that in Mexico City we had decided Henry Oswald.

Later I saw a copy of this or something very close

e. to It.

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believe I might have been shown a copy during my testimony

but even before that in any. event I saw this cable. I am

now absolutely convinced that I made that error remembering

this cable which described.

Lee Harvey Oswald. I wrote a book

and a portion of that had to do with Mexico City and Oswald

and in that book I said Lee Henry Oswald and I believe that

is where that Henry came from and I was incorrect in saying

it came from Mexico and doing

a disservice about

it because I indicated that she or whoever was listening to

this - and it must have been this Boris fellow - but that

is the way it was. Now I am sure it was this message that

gave me the Lee Henry Oswald.

Mr, Goldsmith. Referring your attention to document

No. 183, there is an arrow pointing to the Henry and the

word "sic" underscored right next to the arrow. That is

Winn Scott's handwriting, is it not?

Mr. Phillips. It is such a small word I would hate to

say for sure but it looks to me like it was, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. So apparently Mr. Scott recognized the

middle name Henry being incorrect and wrote down "sic" next

to it. What does the term "sic" mean as you know it, as that

term is customarily used?

Mr. Phillips. "Certainly it meant this the way the

message arrived, this is the way it was written, but from what

I gather from there is - well, the normal usage by putting

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that down this is the way they said it but it certainly does

indicate that he feels that it is not correct.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Right.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Scott was a man with a near photo-

graphic memory. He was a stickler for detail.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that

when this cable was received in October of 1963 Mr. Scott.

knew that cable's reference to Lee Henry Oswald was incorrect?

Mr. Phillips. No, I don't recall that, but reading this

obviously at whatever time he wrote that "sic" on there he

felt it was incorrect or he would not have spotlighted it that

way. But I don't have any recollection. I don't have any

recollection that we knew before this cable came back down

that it was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was your relationship like with

Mr. Scott?

Mr. Phillips. Quite close. I think he trusted me,

trusted my judgment, and so it was a relatively close

professional relationship. Mr. Scott is a man who if he likes

someone and it is obvious that he likes them, and I felt that

he liked me. He is an unusual man. I admired him in many

ways and in some ways I didn't but it was a close relationship.

MI. Goldsmith. Is it true that he was a very competent

and demanding station chief?

Mr. Phillips. "Absolutely.

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MI. Goldsmith. Before we leave this cable I would like

to refer you to your testimony before the committee, specif-

ically page 84 of that testimony, line 4.

Mr. Phillips." Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Having read that, is it true that in your

testimony before the committee in November of 1976 you indicated

that you recall that the cable from headquarters straightened

out the record about Oswald's name?

Mr. Phillips: Yes, that is what I said. Having since

had a chance to review those documents I believe that my

recollection was false.

Mr. Goldsmith. when did you review the documents?

Mr. Phillips. well, just now during my last testimony

recall being shown that first brief cable.

MI. Goldsmith: In sanitized form?

MI. Phillips."

Yes, in sanitized form.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please now refer to CIA No. 13

which is in that folder?

Mr. Phillips. "All right, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith:: Can you identify this document?

MI. Phillips. This is an example of the transcripts which

were made from tapes from this telephone coverage.

MI. Goldsmith. What is the date of this particular docu-

ment in the upper right hand corner?

Mr. Phillips. "1 October 63.

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Mr. Goldsmith. so is it fair to say that this is a

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Mr. Phillips. Yes, undoubtedly.

Mr. Goldsmith. And that the conversation came into the

Soviet embassy sometime after 0955 in the morning?

Mr. Phillips. "Yes, I would say close to 9:55.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you now read the transcript itself?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is this the transcript that you read which

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Mr. Phillips. I am not positive but I think so. I must

say for the record there is a line in there that surprises me.

13

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was at your place indicating

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Mr. Goldsmith.' Fine. But in substance that is the

intercept that you recall or rather that is the transcript

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21

Mr. Phillips. *I cannot be positive. I see here it says

the same person who phoned a day or so ago and spoke in broken

23

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23

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or so ago and spoke in broken Russian speaks to Obyedkov.

Mr. Goldsmith. This cable does identify Lee Oswald,

does it not, or rather he identifies himself?

Mr. Phillips. This is a transcript.

Mr. Goldsmith." I am sorry. You are right, a transcript.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, it does identify Lee Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith.* Is there any reference in this transcript

to a visa?

Mr. Phillips. No, there is not. He says that he spoke

to the consular. One might gather that he was speaking about

visa matters but he does not say that.

MI. Goldsmith. Is there any indication in here that

Oswald is saying "Why don't you do this" or intimating that

the Soviets should talk to him?

Mr. Phillips. No, there is not.."

MI. Goldsmith. Let's take a look again at that cable

that was sent by the

to headquarters.

It is No. 177, CIA number 177.

Mr. Phillips. All right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it accurate to say that this transcript,

the one that appears in the CIA No. 13, can be tied into the

cable that was sent onOctober I that appears in CIA No. 177?

Mr. Phillips." Yes, I would say that that transcript is

the basis for the first paragraph of this.

Mr. Goldsmith, Let's look now to CIA No. 14. YOU might

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want to read both 14 and 15. No. 15 is a translation.

However,: I take it you are familiar with the Spanish.

Mr. Phillips. I do speak Spanish, yes.

All right, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Can you identify this transcript?

Mr. Phillips.

yes. This is obviously a transcript of

conversation in which Spanish was spoken from the Cuban

embassy and consequently I would presume it was an intercept

from phones in the Cuban embassy but of course it could have

been on Soviet phones picking up a call if it was coming in

from the Cuban embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date on which this conver-

sation took place?

Mr. Phillips. 28 September 63.

Mr. Goldsmith. At approximately 1151 hours?

MI. Phillips. I don't see that, counselor.

Oh, yes, I

see that now. Yes, 1151 hours.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is this the transcript that you read

which triggered the cable to Washington, D. C., CIA head-

quarters?

Mr. Phillips. No, I don't think it was.

It seems to me

this is the one which became important after the assassination

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Are you testifying that this

transcript was not reviewed by anyone at the Mexico City

station until after the assassination?

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Mr. Phillips: Oh, no. No, absolutely not.

Mr. Goldsmith. please clarify the record.

Mr. Phillips. " Oh, all right. As a matter of fact, I can

see by the notes here that it was reviewed by people and so

forth.

There is one thing that I would like to insert at this

moment for the record, something that I can't recall exactly

which might have a bearing. I was in Mexico City doing one

job when I first arrived in 1961. Later I was tola that I

was going to leave that job and assume Cuban responsibilities

in the station. I don't recall the precise time ilformally

changed from my old job to the Cuban one. I did know there

was a long period when I was wearing both hats'-- not

officially to Cuba. So some of the Cuban documents, even

though I was very much interested at that time, I yould not

have reviewed and it would appear from this, for instance,

that I didn't necessarily review this one because I

see other

people's names on it.

MI. Goldsmith. All right. For purposes of clarification

is your testimony then that your testimony is not that this

was not reviewed until after the assassination but simply that

it was not linked to Oswald until after the assassination?

Mr. Phillips. That is right, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. These refer to CIA No. 17. Can you read

that again? I believe this is a translation on the next page.

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Mr. Phillips:

All right.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Can you identify this transcript?

Mr. Phillips. ' Yes. This transcript would be one of the

Soviet embassy regarding an incoming call from the Cuban

consulate on the 27th of September.

Mr. Goldsmith. At approximately 1605 hours, is that

correct? •

Mr. Phillips. Yes, and I notice in the English trans-

lation at least it does mention something about a visa.

Mr. Goldsmith." Is this the transcript that you read

which resulted in a cable being sent to Washington, D. C.?

Mr. Phillips. "I don't believe so because I don't believe

this says this is Lee Harvey Oswald whereas the other one did

so. This might have been a part of the reason why it was

sent by the Soviet people and so forth, but I don't recall

that this particularly was it, no.

Mr. Goldsmith. And there is also no indication in here,

is there, of Oswald saying "Why don't we do this" or intimating

that the Soviets should talk to him?

Mr. Phillips. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please refer now to CIA No. 19

and read that one?

MI. Phillips: Yes, I have gone through it rapidly.

I do recall this.

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Mr. Goldsmith.

would you identify this particular

transcript?

Mr. Phillips.....This is a transcript of coverage of the

Cuban embassy and apparently what has happened here is that

there was coverage at both ends and it looks to me like it is

double tapping of a telephone possibly but this apparently

originated in the Cuban embassy and was tapped there. It is

in Spanish so it was the Spanish working on the translator.

Mr. Goldsmith. No, this tap would have been off the

phone from the Soviet embassy, would it not?

Mr. Phillips." Yes, I can see now that it was.

Um hum.

Mr. Goldsmith. The reason for that is that it indicates

on page 20 IV meaning. Individual Voice. Ask Serpa.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I see that now.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is this the transcript that you read

which resulted in the cable being sent to washington in

reference to Oswald?

Mr. Phillips.: I don't recall.

Mr. Goldsmith. There is no mention here of Oswald saying.

"Why don't you do this" or intimating that they should talk tol

him?

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Mr. Phillips. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. How soon after the first intercept did

you receive a transcript of Oswald's voice or rather Oswald's

conversation?

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Mr. Phillips. I am not sure that I received after the

conversation a copy of the transcript. What I am sure is that

the cable that went out as a result so I am not sure that i

saw these things until after the assassination at which time

of course going back but I don't recall that I actually saw

them. I may have but I don't recall them.

Mr. Goldsmith.' Let's refer to page 75 of your transcript

testimony -- I am sorry, of your testimony.

Mr. Phillips.

I am sorry.

Mr. Goldsmith. Specifically line 18.

Mr. Phillips.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read from line. 18 through to

line 23?

MI. Phillips... "Mr. Sprague, do you know approximately"

Mr. Goldsmith.' Oh, no, read it to yourself, please.

Mr. Phillips. I am sorry.

All right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does this refresh your recollection as

to - well, first of all whether or not you actually saw the

intercept after it came in? By intercept I am referring to

transcript.

Mr. Phillips. Reading from this it makes it clear that

I thought that I had seen the transcript and the cable which

resulted from it but I cannot be positive despite that state-

ment that I

actually saw that transcript itself until after

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the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you indicate to the committee at that

time that you were not sure whether of not you had seen the

transcript?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall.

Mr. Goldsmith. But according to your testimony here you

did receive the transcript three days after the intercept came

in.

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Mr. Phillips. Obviously that is the inference to be

drawn from the transcript, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I have been told by the

clerk that we are going to be having a vote in a few minutes

so if you want to recess for lunch this might be an appropriate

time.

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MI. Preyer. I suggest that we recess until two o'clock

today if that is all right with you. will you be able to be

back then?

Mr. Phillips. I certainly can, sir.

Miss Berning. I don't know if we have a room at two.

If you give me a moment, I will call and see if the room is

available that early but I scheduled that for four.

Mr. Preyer. Scheduled at four.

Miss Berning. Yes.

Mr. Preyer. 'I think that four is not going to work so

well in the future but I can be here at four today, so we

Chit

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will just recess' until four.

Mr. Dodd. Why don't you wait until you see if she gets

a IOOm.

MI. Preyer. We will be in session anyway so I don't

think that is going to make much difference.

Miss Berning.

We can have the room at three but it will

take a while to get it ready so we could not do it much before

four.

WASHINGTON, D. C

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Mr. Dodd:

No chance of meeting in the other room?

Mr. Preyer. Where is the room at four?

Miss Berning. 2212, Armed Services.

MI. Preyer. We will recess until four o'clock today.

I am going to have to leave close to six o'clock so I

hope we can finish 'in a couple of hours.

Mr. Goldsmith. I think we can do that.

(Whereupon, at 12:17 p.m., the subcommittee recessed,

to reconvene at 4:00 p.i., the same day.)

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Mr. Preyer. The Committee will resume.

Mr. Phillips, if you will be seated, I recognize Mr.

Goldsmith.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MR. DAVID PHILLIPS -- Resumed

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, during the afternoon

recess, have you had the opportunity to read the transcript

that was prepared of your testimony before the Committee in

November of 1976?

Mr. Phillips.

Yes, I have.

Mr. Goldsmith. And during the afternoon recess, did you

at any time discuss your testimony before the Committee

this morning with anyone?

Mr. Phillips. I did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Or contact anyone in any way?

Mr. Phillips. I did not. I did. not.

Mr. Goldsmith. For background purposes I would like

to indicate to you that the allegations of the issues

before

this Committee are indeed very serious ones. The Committee

is trying to determine who killed the President, whether there

was a conspiracy, Specifically, in the area of Mexico City,

the Committee is trying to determine what Oswald was doing

there, if he was there at all. The Committee is also looking

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into allegations that Oswald was in some way connected

with the U.S. intelligence agency, whether or not Oswald

was an agent, whether the Agency was in some way involved

in: the assassination. It is an allegation that has been

made, although the Committee is not predisposed in any way

towards resolving that issue.

The specific question of the cable traffic, the tran--

scripts, the tapes, the photos bear directly upon these issues.

Can you see that?

Mr. Phillips. I understand that.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to raise a couple of

questions with you pertaining to your testimony this morning.

First, do you recall whether or not you actually signed

off on the cable of October 8th from Mexico City Station to

CIA headquarters?

Mr. Phillips. I believe now that I did not since I

saw a copy of the cable, which I believe is the one you are

referring to, and I did not see my signature on it.

Mr. Goldsmith. But would you concede that a fair reading

of the record of your testimony in November would suggest that

in fact you did sign off on that cable?

Mr. Phillips. That either I signed off on it or certainly

was aware of its going, yes. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Based upon the transcripts that we

reviewed this morning, I think if we were to review each

one

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it would be possible to establish that Oswald visited the

Cuban embassy and Russian embassy or consulates a total of

five times.

We could go through each one if you would

like but are you willing to accept my word for that?

Mr. Phillips. Certainly

Mr. Goldsmith. In light of the fact that Oswald

visited these embassies and consulates a total of five

times, is there any explanation for how the Agency failed

to obtain a photograph of him?

Mr. Phillips. First, concerning his visits to the Soviet

embassy, until I saw those messages this morning in which Oswald

was saying I have paid a visit to your place, I had thought

until this morning that Oswald never -- that we didn't have

any record of the fact that he actually visited the Soviet

embassy in person, which of course would explain why there

was no photograph of him.

the

The explanation as far as the Cuban embassy was concerned

was that there was photographic coverage of the consulated

and as I recall it, he visited on a Friday when that camera

was not in -- was not working.

The explanation for the following day, the Saturday, would

be. that at that time we didn't photograph people who went in

on weekends. Afterwards I think Saturday coverage was instituted

because of the Oswald thing.

MI. Goldsmith. Okay.

tas 12 1215. As 8

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I don't -- I aminot sure that your answer was completely

responsive to my question. The first part of your answer was

that until you reviewed the cable traffic or transcripts, you

were not aware of the visit to the Soviet embassy.

Mx. Phillips. That's correct. I-

Mr. Goldsmith. But that doesn't indicate, that doesn't

explain why, if there was surveillance of the Soviet embassy,

Oswald's picture was not obtained.

Do you follow what I am saying?

Mr. Phillips. Yes. The only - what I am trying to

say is that in my mind the only explanation was that he

indeed did not visit the Soviet embassy in person. I thought

that he did not:

Mr. Goldsmith. But assuming that he did, as I believe

the transcripts demonstrate --

Mr. Phillips. There should have been a picture.

Mr. Goldsmith. And to your knowledge was there such à

picture?

Mr. Phillips. No, I never saw a picture of Lee Harvey

Oswald, and I -- it was my -- I have always believed that.

no picture. of him existed.

Mr. Goldsmith. After the

assassination, was. Win Scott

upset about the failure of the photo surveillance units to

obtain photographs of Oswald?

Mr. Phillips. I am sure I can say that he was disappointed.

Та ва.

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I don't recall - I don't think that I would recall that he

was upset in the sense that he was berating anyone or anything.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did he discuss it with you at all?

Mr. Phillips. Mm-mm, not that I recall. And I think

it would be unlikely that he would since I was not involved

in the mechanical business of that photography.

Mr. Goldsmith. And I believe in your testimony of

November of '76 you indicated. that the photograph that was

obtaindd. that was mistakenly linked to Oswald was linked

to him because

had a transcript before. her.

The transcript indicated someone was going to the Soviet

embassy to obtain a visa, and she had a picture of a man

who left. the embassy at about that time, okay?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, that was my understanding of why

this message went out in sort of two parts.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the Agency made any

effort to identify other non-Latins whom it saw either entering

or leaving the Soviet or Cuban consulates or embassies?

Mr. Phillips. You mean generally or in the specific

case of this unidentified. -

Mr. Goldsmith. In the specific case of the Oswald.

issue.

Mr. Phillips. I obviously, I don't know what might have

been done at headguarters, and I don't recall specifically

of an effort made in Mexico, but answering your question in

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the general sense, yes, you always tried to find out who

it was, and what steps were actually taken, I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith.

For purposes of clarification, by my

question I meant when they made reference to that picture in

the cable that was sent to headquarters on October 8th, prior

to coming up with the conclusion that this picture was

Oswald, did they attempt to identify every other non-Latin

who visited those embassies?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, that was pretty standard procedure.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to get back and deal with

another matter that was raised this morning.

How soon after the first intercept did you receive the

transscript of Oswald's conversation?

i sat in

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall precisely. Generally it

was a matter of - they came pretty rapidly. It seems to me,

the next day or say within two days, something like that

was the normal time, but you will recall my previous

testimony that that transcript concerning his visit to the

Cuban embassy only was really important to us after the

assassination, so. I can't recall the date that I first saw

it.

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Mr. Goldsmith. However, you do recall receiving that

transcript prior to the time that the cable was sent out,

the cable I am referring to, the cable of October 9th, 1963?

Mr. Phillips. I am sure I saw it because I read every

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piece of paper that came from that monitoring establishment.

which was in Spanish, in other words, coming from the Cuban

embassy, so I am sure that I saw it. But I also have the

recollection that it didn't mean anything to me, I am sorry

to say; until after the assassination when it was tied in with

previous conversations.

(Pause)

Mr. Goldsmith. For summary purposes, then, it would

appear that if standard procedure was followed, you would

have received that transcript within a few days of the

intercept having been made?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And your recollection, I guess, based

both upon the testimony from November of 176 that you read

this afternoon, and any further thoughts that you had, is

that you did in fact receive this transcript prior to the

time. that the cable went out October 9th, '63.

Mr. Phillips. I am sure I must have. I don't recall

specifically that I dids. As I explained before, I was in

the process in Mexico City of changing from one job to another,

doing two jobs, and Mr. Robert Shaw was the man who really

was sort of the detail man on these cuban operations at

that time.

Mr. Goldsmith? You also indicated this morning that.

your testimony, based upon the transcript, the testimony that

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you gave to the Committee in November '76 was based upon

information acquired after the assassination.

Is that an accurate statement, or is that a statement you

would now like to qualify?

Mr. Phillips. Well, what I said, counselor, was that

after that number of years, there are so many things that I

had read in magazines and heard on television talk shows and

that sort of thing, that it sometimes has been very difficult

for me, as it continues to be today, to remember when some-

thing comes up about the Oswald visit to Mexico whether I

have read that in the National Inquirer, or whether it is

something from my own memory.

Mr. Goldsmith. In the specific context of your testimony

before the: Committee in November of '76, is it accurate to

say that the only time you ever indicated to Mr. Sprague, who

was the lawyer that was questioning you, that you were basing

statement upon after acquired information was in references

to a quotation that appeared in a Washington newspaper quoting

you, and other than that you never indicated to Mr. Sprague.

that your testimony before the committee that day was based

upon after acquired information?

Is that an accurate summary?

Mr. Phillips. I think that is accurate. That testimony

was

preceded the previous day -- I think that testimony was

some three and a half hours

It was preceded by a day of

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questioning by staff members which lasted I believe six

hours, and/during that time I may have made some reference,

but yes, I didn't make a great point of saying that I was telling

him things that I might have gotten somewhere else. I was trying

ing to tell him things that I remembered to the best of my

ability

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, are you certain that

prior to the 10/8, the October 8 cable being sent to CIA

headquarters, that you discussed this with

in

Mexico City? By discussed.

this, I am referring specifically

to. Oswald's contact with the Soviet embassy?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I believe we did discuss it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Doyou remember where you were when you

discussed it?

Mr. Phillips. Either

walked into my office

or I walked into his office.

I think it may have been the

latter, and we discussed -- I believe he said have you seen this

or vice versa, or I brought up the subject some way, but I

definitely remember reading it in its typed draft before it

was a telegraphic message.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you certain, Mr. Phillips, that at

that time, which would be on or about October 8th, 1963, you

were in Mexico City?

Mr. Phillips. I left Mexico City at one time during that

period to

go to the funeral of a nephew who had been killed

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in an automobile accident, but. I certainly don't recall that it

was at that time.

No, I. believe I was there. I can't be

absolutely positive. I may have - often we went back and

forth to headquarters for consultation, and I made that trip,

but I don't remember being out of Mexico City at that time.

Mr.. Goldsmith. I would like to ask you now to refer to

CIA Document No. 11.

Mr. Phillips. All right, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. This is a cable to the Mexico City

station and others from the Director, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And the date is September 30, '63?

Mr. Phillips. I see here something that looks -

Mr. Goldsmith. Upper left hand corner, 30 September '63.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, 30 September '63.

Mx. Goldsmith. Without reading through the entire cable,

[would you please take a look at page 12, CIA No. 12, and read

what is written there.

(Whereupon, the witness read the document.)

Mr. Goldsmith. Michael D. Choaden refers to you, does

it not?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, that is I.

Mr. Goldsmith. And it indicated that at least at that time

September 30th, you were presently TDY Headquarters. What does

TDY mean?

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Mr. Phillips. Temporary duty.

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

So we know now that September 30th,

according to this cable, you were in headquarters.

Is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, that's correct, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, before you indicated that you

thought you were in Mexico City. Do you have any basis for

being able to explain why you thought you were in Mexiço

City at that time?

Mr. Phillips. Only that I don't recall even now why I

was in headquarters on this TDY.

Mr. Goldsmith. I only have one copy of the next document

I

am going to show you.

Mr. Preyer. May I just ask, where is headquarters?

that Washington. or --

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, that would be in Washington.

Is.-

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I only have one dopy

of this Agency document, so I will have the witness read it.

I am referring now to CIA document 252. It is not a

good

quality copy, but could you try to read to the Committee

this?section?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. David Phillips, newly assigned chief,

PB room in Ops - that means Cuban operations -- in Mexico

will arrive. 7 October Eastern Air Lines for two days consultation.

This is to the station in Miami:

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Mr. Goldsmith. Right.

Does that - go ahead.

Mr. Phillips. Not necessary meet or make reservations for

Mexico. Mr. Phillips ETA 9. October on Guest Air Lines.:

So this would be a cable from headquarters saying that I

was stopping by in Miami for two days.

Mr. Goldsmith. My first question is, the cable refers

to you in your true name, does it not?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would thatibe in keeping with Agency

procedure, sending a cable referring to a case officer by his

true name?

Mr. Phillips. It would be done in a case like this where

lin

Mexico, of course, they would know my pseudonym, and in

headquarters they would know my pseudonym, but not necessarily

in

a third station such as Miami.

Mr. Goldsmith.

And my next question is, according to the

cable, it indicates that your return in Mexico City was estimated

to be October 9th --.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. 1963.

So it seems to indicate that at the very least, from

September 30th, '63 until October 9th, 1963, you were not in

Mexico City-

Mr. Phillips.

It certainly does.

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Mr. Phillips. It was düring this period that I learned

that I was going to be shifted from one job to another and

go to Cuban operations, so I obviously went back to headquarters

to discuss Cuban operations, and on the way stopped because

Miami was concerned with Cuba, on the way back.

Mr. Goldsmith. Well, it would seem that the more

fundamental question is not even so much do you recall where

you were, but on what basis you gave testimony to the

Committee in November of '76 and earlier today describing

conversation that you had with

and the cable that

was to be sent out when in fact you weren't even there.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, it does:

Mr. Goldsmith. Is there any way that you could explain

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Mr. Phillips. No, sir; I cannot.

The only explanation. that I can give is that I was

suddenly involved in this Cuban business at a time when a

lot was happening, and that when I was asked to testify in

1976, so many years later, my recollection of the events was

that I was involved in Cuban matters, as indeed I would have

been during that temporary duty in headquarters. I did not

know -- I did not recall that I was at headquarters during

that time.

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with

Mr. Goldsmith. So at the very least, the conversation

never took place:

Mr. Phillips. If that cable went out on the 10th, and

I didn't --

Mr. Goldsmith. It went out on the 8th --

Mr. Phillips. On the 8th.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mexico City Station, to headquarters.

Mr. Phillips. No, not before it went. I obviously was

mistaken.

Mr. Goldsmith. There were also conflicts between your

description of the cables and the cables that we went over

this morning..

Without going over the conflict again, is there a way

that you can explain the discrepancies?

Mr. Phillips. The best explanation for the discrepancies

I have is what I was referring to this morning saying that

I would like to talk about the background under which I

gave

that testimony in 1976, what instigated it, and you said that

"I would have five minutes later to explain that, and it is,

to me, the explanation of discrepancies in that testimony of

1976.

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Mr. Goldsmith. I think now might be an appropriate time

to give you a chance to discuss that.

Mr. Phillips. All right.

I retired from the CIA in 1975 to form this organization.

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One of the things that I did frequently, on a daily basis, was

talk to newspaper people. Our organization is sort of active

as a clearing house for the press on intelligence matters.

As a former newspaper man; I felt I knew how to talk. to

newspaper people, and so I talked to them, and during when a

period. when. I literally have

now talked to several hundred

newspaper people, only on two occasions did I think that I

was. taken, and one of them was by an article in the Washington

Post by Mr. Ron Kessler which came out the day before my

testimony and was the reason that I was called down to

téstify.

Mr. Kessler contacted me. We had a long lunch. We had

a second lunch.

He talked to me on the phone a number of

times.

A number of weeks went by, and he was talking about

Mexico City at the time of the Kennedy assassination, and

trying to get me to tell him everything he could. I didnt:

realize until after the story came. out, really, or towards

the very end of my conversations. with him, that apparently Mr.

Kessler had talked to two other people who were in Mexico, a

translator and a secretary, and he told me that they said that

Lee Harvey Oswald told the Soviets that he wanted his ticket

paid for and he had lots of fabulous information to give them

and this, that and the other.

When a newspaper man talks long enough, sometimes you

find yourselfsagreeing with him on the basis of facts that

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don't really exist. For instance, during those conversations

he said, well, I already know the whole story. Here I have

all the documents. I received under the Freedom of Information

Act, the cables and that sort of thing.

So I half came away from my conversations with Mr.

Kessler having absorbed some of the things that he was saying.

The second part of that thing was that. I hadea book that

was about to be published. I was engaged in the business of

trying to make a living by lecturing. I was on television

shows and that sort of thing, and I don't think there is

any question in my mind that at that time I tended to perhaps

overdramatize a little bit my role. After all, if you write

a book and spend a year doing it, you hope it will be sold

and all that sort of thing.

Since that time, although I have continued this public

activity, I have tried to be very, very careful, and I am

not especially proud of the accuracy of that testimony, and

| I certainly am really surprised to realize that I was out

of town for that period, even though it was stillson Cuban

matters. That is the best explanation I can give you, sir.

Mr. Preyer. We have a vote on the floor, if you are at

a convenient breaking point here.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am.

Mr. Preyer. Would that suit you gentlemen?

We. will take a ten minute recess to vote at this time.

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(A brief recess was taken.)

Mr. Preyer: The Committee will resume.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, we have just had a brief

recess, so for purposes of summarizing, I would like to review

your last statement...

First, we have a situation here where there are conflicts

between your version of the cables as described in your

testimony in 1976 and the cables we showed you today. We

also have conflicts between the transcripts that you talked

about, or the one transcript in particular that you discussed,

and those that we showed you today, and we have a situation

where you were absent from Mexico City, and yet you told the

Committee in November of '76 that you had signed off on a

cable, that you had had a conversation with

and

also that you had in fact seen the transcript when you couldn't

have seen it until sometime. after that.

Your explanation I believe in part is that you attributec

this to a conversation that you had with a newspaper man, and

also that before the Committee you overdramatized your

role.

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Is that an accurate statement?

Mr. Phillips. I hope

that I didn't do it before the

Committee. I think what you have said is accurate. I do

not recall, did I say that I remembered distinctly signing

off on the cable, or that under the dircumstances I would?

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In any event, I accept what you have said as a valid

summary of what happened.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did anyone at the Agency -- and by Agency

I am referring to the CIA -- instruct you or ask you to give

that testimony in November of '76?

Mr. Phillips. Absolutely not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Having read that testimony during the

afternoon recess, were there any other parts of it that you

found to be untrue?:

Mr. Phillips. Well, in reading it this afternoon and

looking back, I felt that I certainly had exaggerated the

extent to which I was pushing

and I now know why

I wasn't there to push him and so forth. But I don't recall

any specific thing that was untrue, no.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, any questions?

Mr. Preyer.

Mr. Sawyer?

Mr. Sawyer.

I'll pass.

Mr. Preyer.

Mr. Fithian?

Mr. Fithian.

I have no questions on this part.

We are

going on with some others.

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, we are.

Mr. Dodd. This is the questioning you are completing

here regarding what we were on this morning, Counselor?

Is

that correct?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

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Mr. Dodd. Did you have any questions, Mr. Chairman,

that you were

going to ask?

Mr. Preyer. Well, if you have a further area to go

into, I will withhold my questions until such time as you may

have finished.

Mr. Goldsmith. I do have another area:

Mr. Preyer. I will withhold at this time.

Mr. Dodd. I will withhold as well.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Thank you.

Mr. Phillips, when you were in Mexico City in 1963,

were you at one time Chief of Covert Action?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I was.

Mx. Goldsmith. When?

Mr. Phillips. From the time of my arrival, which was

the fall of 1961 untilasometime in 1963.

Mr. Goldsmith. 'What does the term "covert action" mean?

Mr. Phillips.

In its broadest sense, it is the propaganda,

political action type thing. In this case, primarily it

had to do with Cuba because the Cuban embassy in Mexico City

was. a focal point for their propaganda activities, and throughout

Latin America they were sending couriers through and that

sort of thing.

So in effect, as opposed to regular intelligence operations;

running agents and getting information, I was more concerned

with the media, not only in Mexico, but in Latin America,

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providing materials for it; and trying to counter Cuban

influence.

Mr. Goldsmith.

so your major target then was Cuba, is

that correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes

Mr.. Goldsmith. And your

goal would be to counter Cuban

influence.

Mr. Phillips: Yes, and part of my job was Soviet influence

as well, but it was largely Cuban, some Soviet.

Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.

Would you define for the Committee what the term "asset"

means in Agency jargon?

Mr. Phillips. Well, generally speaking -- a lot of

people use different definitions, but to me an asset is

someone who isn't necessarily an agent, isn't necessarily

on your payroll, someone who is cooperative with you, someone

who on a witting basis knows they are helping you get a

job. done.

Sometimes that can sort of spill over and. say

our assets include this agent. who we pay and so forth.

So often it is used in the sense of someone who simply

is either manipulable or someone who is helping you because

they believe in the same things that you believe in or

that sort of thing, and it can on some occasions refer to

an agent.

Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of consistency, now, if you

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were working with a journalist - this is by way of an

example - on a propaganda operation, assuming all this is

on a witting level, would you characterize him as an agent or

as an

asset?

Mr. Phillips. Generally as an agent. I think it would

depend on the audience you were talking to.. If you were

in a group here in Washington with people from different

agencies, you might say we have an asset who can arrange this;

but certainly in-house you would be more inclined to say

"agent" than "asset", but it could be used both ways.

Mr. Goldsmith. How specifically would you carry out a

particular: propaganda operation? For example, if you wanted

togenerate a particular story, what ways would you

9o. about

doing that?

Mr. Phillips. Well, often the stories you wanted to

generate were the result of some sort of instructions from.

headquarters, perhaps just from Mexico, perhaps worldwide,

perhaps for Latin Americar, in which we have the following

points that we want to make, and specifically, you would go

out and you would meet your agent or your asset, but generally

your agent, and say look, what do you think about this, and

he would usually agree with you and write, say, an editorial

oranews. story which made that point.

Mx. Goldsmith. Did you work with your agents personally

for did you direct their work through one of your CIA &

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subordinates?

Mr. Phillips. In a few cases I worked with them personally.

However, there were other people who were subordinate who.

handled more people than I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. Well, when you say in a few cases, how

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Mr. Phillips. On a regular basis, I think I really

probably met with about two at a time, perhaps, something like

that, of foreigners, of Mexicans, of foreigners. Then I

might go out and see an American who in turn was working

with them, but usually two or three, something like that.

Not

much more.

Mr. Goldsmith.. I am not sure that I understand the answer.

Two or three meaning what, during a particular time perioa,

a month or a week you might see two or three agents directly?

Mr. Phillips. I might see them once or twicesa week.

What I am referring to is that I felt that I was the case

officer for, I was the guy who went out and talked with, say,

two or three of these agents at a time.

Mr. Goldsmith.

so as a matter of routine, you would work

directly with your agents, on some occasions.

On other

occasions you would work through subordinates.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith.

To what extent did you use one technique

more than another?

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Mr. Phillips. I used the -- I did more sort of management

than I did case officer work: That is, Mr. Shaw and someone

working with Mr. Shaw would go out to meet people more frequently

than I would. Then I would also go out and I would meet with

an outside American who

was not attached to the embassy who

had agents working for him, and I would meet with him and

plan what those agents would do at his direction.

But I would never meet those agents, or very seldoma

Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of the Cuban exile organizations

that were in existence during the time you were in Mexico:

City have representatives in Mexico City?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I believe that all have representatives

in Mexico City:

Mr. Goldsmith. And did you use any of them in your

covert action operations?

Mr. 'Phillips. We had contact with them and this and

that and the other. We used one group of Cubans which

was not really, so much an exile organization but a group of

Cubans who worked together at our direction. But in speaking

of the different political groups, at different times from

Mexico, a lot of them were met by people there, but I don't

recall of any particular group that we worked with on a

consistent basis:

I noticed in one of these cables. I just read that it

had to do with a groupcalled the JURE and so forth. Obviously

they bad

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they had made contact with us.

But I do not recall specific groups that we worked with

from Mexico City:

Mr. Goldsmith.

And you mentioned before that you did

work with a specific group of Cubans.

Was that your own developed group?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, because -- one of the things they

did, for instance was they had a reception center where.

people coming out of Cuba would be debriefed, and they would

meet them just after they had come out and they would ask

them questions that we prepared for them to gather information.

The sort of cover for the operation was the humanitarian.

one of telling these people where to go to find a place to

stay and this and that and the other. Our primary interest,

however, was to gather intelligence from them by debriefing

them

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Mr. Goldsmith. While you were in Mexico City, and after

the assassination of the President, did you ever undertake

any propaganda operation that pertained tor the assassination

of Mr. Kennedy?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that I did. I recall at

a later date a message coming out from headquarters which

went to a number of stations which talked about steps whiche

could be taken to counter the stories going around saying

that: the CIA was involved, but I recall that as being after

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I don't recall any such undertaking in Mexico.

It could have been, but I don't think so.

Mr. Goldsmith. Okay.

After you left Mexico, what specific propaganda operation

were you involved in with regard to the assassination?

Mr. Phillips. I don't

recall that I was. I, do recall

thatathere was what is known as a

book message that went to a

number of stations which said, look, here is another viewpoint

about the stories that are going around. It specifically

referred to Mr Mark Lane and said try and do this.

Now, I don't - I was asked this once in a public debate

and I believe I thought at the time it was

It was

more likely now, I think, when I was in the

and when we were so busy in the

that we

noted that message, but I am not sure if we did anything about

it.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Okay.

While you were in Cuba, were you also involved in covert.

action as you just described that term?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I was.

Mr. Goldsmith. And was your job description there similar

to the one that you just gave us in Mexico City?

MI. Phillips. No, it was not.

The reason was that when I wenttto -- and I was in Cuba

on two occasions. The first -- on the first occasion I was

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there as a staff officer of the CIA, under cover, using the

cover of my lectures. I had been lecturing on Latin America

previously, and so I was a covert action officer then.

I returned to Cuba in 1958 after having resigned from

the Agency, to establish a public relations firm. I was going

to make a million dollars type thing. I did retain, however,

an association with the Agency because they asked me if I

would work on a contract basis, and they gave me a much

smaller amount of money, and I worked. However, I concentrated --

I didn't do the -- the covert action was almost purely

propaganda type work and working with groups that weren't

revolutionary groups, such as students and labor and that sort

of thing, but not political

groups.

Mr. Goldsmith. During the time that you were in Cuba

did you ever use the operational alias Mr. Abbott?

Mr. Phillips. I think I -- that sounds familiar. I.

might very well have used that.

Mr. Goldsmith. And while you were in Cuba, did you tend

to have more direct personal contact with your agents or

assets than you did in Mexico City?

Mr. Phillips. I would say less, because it seems to me.

there were a lot less agents.

Mr. Goldsmith. But on a relative basis, did you tend to

have more --

Mr. Phillips. The first time, when I was in Chile, 1955,

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'56, more or less the same; the second time greatly reduced.

Mr. Goldsmith. You just said Chile. You mean Cuba?

MI: Phillips. I meant Cuba, of course.

The second time greatly reduced$because that was when I

was starting a public relations firm and was only spending

literally part time on that.

Mr. Goldsmith. While you were in Cuba in I believe 1958

through 1960, was it, did you ever start spending full time

activity on covert action operations?

Mr. Phillips. In the sense that I was working, yes,

because the public relations business went out of - there was

no public relations business, so when I was -- before I

left Cuba, there simply was none of that. So any work I did

was for the CIA, but it wasn't full time.

Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to your agents in Cuba

"it me ite

after you left, do you know?

Mr. Phillips. I think generally the answer is that they

went into exilein.

Mr. Goldsmith. So most of them went to the States?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I would guess so.

Mr. Goldsmith. And did you ever use any of them again?

Mr. Phillips. Yes. Now, wait a minute. I certainly used

some of my assets, people I had known there, especially people

who were in the newspaper business, and who then I would

approach. - I approached in Miami at the time of preparations

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for the Bay of Pigs, and saw to it that they got out exile

editions of their newspapers.

Mx. Goldsmith. Were any of these assets involved in

propaganda activities pertaining to the assassination?

Mr. Phillips. Not that I recall.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know a man known Salvatore Diaz

Verson? Salvatore Diaz Verson?

I believele was a Cuban journalist.

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall. I might have, but I don't

recall him.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have any operational involve-

ment with him for the CIA?

Mr. Phillips. 'I knew

so many Cuban newspaper men, I was

associated with a newspaper there in the sense that I wrote a

column for it.

I knew a lot of them. I was in the public

relations business, or I tried to when I first got there.

I might very well have but I don't recall. any specifics of

That,

it.

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Mx. Goldsmith. So you might have had operational activity

or involvement with him but you don't recall the specifics.

Mr. Phillips. I might have, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning to your --

Mr. Phillips. I am sorry, what was the matrinymic, the

third name?

Mr. Goldsmith. Verson, V-e-r-s-o-n.

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Mr.. Phillips. The name seems familiar to me, but I

don't recall the operational activity.

Mr. Goldsmith. He was an individual who was the source

of a story that Oswald was seen with Sylvia Duran and a Cuban

government official in a cafe sometime in October of '63?

Mr. Phillips. (The Witness nods in the negative.)

Mr. Goldsmith. You are shaking your head so I take it

it doesn't ring a bell.

Mr. Phillips. No, it doesn't -- it is not ringing bells.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning to your work -

Mr. Phillips. Salvadore Diaz Verson.

Mr. Goldsmith. Right.

Mx. Phillips. The name is familiar. It seems to me that

I am now recalling that name in an extremely right wing Cuban

editor or something like that?

Mr.. Goldsmith. If you determine who that individual is

after you leave the hearing room today, would you contact the

Committee and give us that information?

Mr. Phillips. Of course I will.

Mr.. 'Goldsmith. Thank you.

Mr. Phillips. I do now - the bell is ringing that that

is the name of an extremely right wing, conservative Cuban

journalist of some kind.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall now whether you had any

operational involvement with him?

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Mr. Phillips. NO, I don't recall that I was connected

with him. I may have been.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning now to your work with the CIA

in regard to the Bay of Pigs operation; did you also work on

the covert action area in this particular regard?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, in a limited sense. I did not work.

on the political side, talking with the political groups.

That was the job shared by two other people, at one time

Howard Hunt did it.. My work was propaganda primarily, the

construction of a large radio station in the Caribbean, financing

of exile newspapers so it was more propaganda type work, groups

of doctors who would. make statements and that sort of thing.

It concentrated on the propaganda.

Mr. Goldsmith. In this particular case, did you have

direct contact with your agents and assets?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. On a frequent basis?

Mr: Phillips. Not frequently because I was stationed

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regular basis. But I flew to Miami frequently and would meet

with them and would see them.

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Mr. Goldsmith. During your experience with the CIA,.

did you ever train any assets or agents in "psychological

"warfare"?

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Mr. Phillips, Certainly not in a formal sense.: I would

in talking with them about radio broadcasts and things like

that, I tried to give them the lessons of my experience, don't

be too obvious with this point. If you think that you are

going to defend Batista and be welcome back in Cuba, you are

crazy, that sort of thing.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have any type of training

sessions at the Berlitz Language School in Cuba?

Mr. Phillips. Training sessions at the Berlitz Language

School. No. As a public relations client, when things weren't

going very well with my public relations firm and I was

taking French lessons, and I -- how did this - I had French

lessons from a Berlitz teacher, and I didn't pay them fori

the French lessons and they didn't pay me. for some propaganda

advice.

There was an American who was running that office,

but no, I don't recall using their school. I had an office

and the French teacher came to my office.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work in Havana with a persona

whose name was Melton?

Mr. Phillips.. That may have been the name of the man

at the Berlitz school, but I am not -- I can't recall for

sure.

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Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to your agents and assets

whom you worked with in the Bay of Pigs operation after the

operationfailed?

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Mr. Phillips. Some continued in the Miami exile

community: They went into radio stations and started their

own programs. Some went into business, a number of different

things.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were any of them involved in propaganda

activities pertaining to the assassination of the President?

Mr. Phillips. If they were, I don't recall it. I am not

aware of it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know a man named Emilio. Nunez

Portuondo?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was he?

Mr. Phillips. Emilio -- was he not at one time the, not

the President of Cuba but the Chief of the Supreme Court or

something very, very importante and perhaps had something to

do with, Ambassador tó the United Nations; something like

that?

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I recall that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work with him in any operational

sense?

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Mr. Phillips. I think I met him in Cuba. I can't recall

that I worked with him in an operational sense.

Mr. Preyer. We have a vote on, I am sorry to say, but

we will recess for approximately ten minutes.

(A brief recess was taken.)

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Mr. Preyer. The Committee will resume.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work with a man who was

referred to as Douglas Gupton, G-up-t-o-n?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I did.

Mx. Goldsmith. Was that his true name?

Mr Phillips.

NO o

Mr. Goldsmith. What was his true name?

Mr. Phillips: Douglas Gupton was the alias, not the

pseudonym. but the alias that I always used for him and that

he picked up from me because my two best friends in high

school

were a fellow named Douglas something and a fellow named

Billy Gupton; and that is what I was referring to this morning.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what was his true name?

Mr. Phillips. Bill Kent.

Mr. Goldsmith. Bill?

Mr. Phillips. Kent, K-e-n-t.

Mr. Goldsmith. What kind of working relationship did

you have with Douglas Gupton?

Mr. Phillips. Very close because he was the officer whö

went to Miami who in effect worked for me during the Bay of

Pigs business in the Miami locale.

So he met lots of those people.:

Mr. Goldsmith. So you were in Washington, D. C.--

Mr. Phillips. That's correct.

Mr. Goldsmith. And Gupton was in Miami.

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Mr. Phillips. Miami.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was he a reliable and competent person?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, quite.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you sure that his last name was

Kent?

Mr. Phillips. I think so, William Kent.

Is it something like that? But I think it is William

Kent.

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Mr. Goldsmith. And he was an Agency case officer?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, he was a staff officer for the Agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. Getting back for a moment to the question

of propaganda or psychohogical training sessions in Cuba,

to

your knowledge did such sessions take place not necessarily.

in the offices of the Berlitz School in Havana, but in an office?

in the building in which the Berlitz School was located?

Mr. Phillips. I have no recollection of that.

Mr. Goldsmith. I asked you earlier about a man named

Melton.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have any operational involve-

ment. for the CIA with this man Melton?

Mr. Phillips. I am not sure. If Mr. Melton was the man

who ran the Berlitz School, I did not, unless there was one

of those casual things of he was one of the friendly Americans

who passed you information, and to that degree I might very

a is

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well have because we became fairly friendly, but I don't

recall that he was, had any - that we asked him to provide

cover or he ran a group. Idon't recall that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did he ever run any of these training

sessions, propaganda or psychological warfare training sessions?

Mr. Phillips. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have an office in the building in

which the Berlitz School was located?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall where - I don't recall

exactly where the Berlitz School was, whether it was in the

same building. I was in. I was in the building directly

behind the Hotel Nacional, and I can't recall whether the

Berlitz School was there or not. I didn't go to -- I went

there once or twice to that thing, but I didn't go there

for my classes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know a person named Delphine

Campanada?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that.

Mr. Goldsmith. To refresh your memory, would Delphine

Campanada have been a person with whom Douglas Gupton

worked?

Mr. Phillips. Very well could have been. He saw an

awful lot of people. It is not ringing any bells with me

right now.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about Ross Crozier, C-r-o-z-i-e-r?

i am.

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Mx. Phillips. That name is familiar.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it true that for purposessof refreshing

your memory. that Ross Crozier was a CIA case officer who

worked with the leaders of a Cuban group known as the DRE,

Directorio Revolucionario Estudiantil?

Mr. Phillips. Are we talking about Miami or in Cuba?

Mr. Goldsmith. No we are talking about Miami now.

Mr. Phillips. While I think of it, there was an

American who worked for me in Cuba, an elderly gentleman,

and I have been trying to think of his

name. I don't think

it is Melton.. It could have been but anyway, back to

Cuba, to Miami:

That may very well have been, but I don't recall

meeting with him. - I may have during my trips to Miami.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you work with this group, the

DRE through Mr. Gupton?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.:

Mr.. Goldsmith. And this would be in propaganda related

activities?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mc. Goldsmith. So basically Mr. Gupton worked with the

DRE under your direction.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, and he also met with a number of

other people, people who were running radio stations and

newspaper - radio programs and exile newspapers.

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But the DRE was a very important student group, both in

Cuba and later in Miami.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning to another area. I believe at

the beginning of your testimony today we first raisedethe

question of your pseudonyms, and one of them was Michael

Choaden?

Mr. Phillips. Choaden.

Mr. Goldsmith. Choaden, and what was the other one?

Mr.. Phillips. Paul Langevin, Paul D. Langevin,

L-a-n-g-e-v-i-n, something very close, but I think that is

correcti

MI. Goldsmith. Now, when you dealt with one of your

assets or agents; what name did you use?

Mr. Phillips. I never used my pseudonym. The pseudonym

was for internal CIA use, and I always used an alias except

in those some cases when I used a true name, but I. always

used an alias.

Mr. Goldsmith. And how many operational aliases did you

say that you may have had?

Mr. Phillips. Well, over a period of 25 years I suppose

a hundred.

Mr. Goldsmith. And how would that work? You would have

one alias that you would use with one individual and another

alias that you would use with a second individual?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Sometimes you would -if you moved

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from one country to another and you might use. the same

alias you had used before simply because it was something you

could remember, so you might use it with more than one agent.

Often you would try and choose something that started at

least with your initials, and that sort of thing, and I

just used countless and different ones over the years.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was that standard practice for case officers

to use that many operational aliases?

Mr. Phillips. Yes. I think it generally would be

considered sloppy case officer work to use the same one for

a long, long time with a number of different people. So

often people would change them.

Mr. Goldsmith. But if you used as many as a hundred,

wouldn't that make it difficult to remember which alias you

used with a particular individual?

Mr. Phillips. Certainly it would. I certainly don't

remember all the names that I used.

==

Mr. Goldsmith. Referring your attention now again to the

'"time that you were in Cuba from 1958 to '60, did you ever

¡know a man named Julio Lobo?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And in what connection did you know Mr.

Lobo?

Mr. Phillips. The connection began because Mr. Lobo's.

nephew, a man named Carlos Todd, was in a little theater group

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in which I was active. Julio Lobo was known to everyone in

Cuba. He was the sugar tsar.

I remember on one occasion

I actually met

with him. I believe it was in Cuba. It might

have been later in Miami, but I actually met with Mr. Lobo.

At that time he had gone to Spain to live, and it was either

in - it could have been in Washington but I believe it was

in Cuba, but. I do remember that on one occasion I actually

met Mr. Lobo, I think only one time.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have any involvement. with

him in reference to your CIA activities?

Mr. Phillips. M. Lobo was considered an asset. He

certainly was not a paid agent or anything like that. But

yes, there - I

don't remember, an operation with him, whether

we were just talking with him about propaganda or what, but

what the specific was for that reason, whether we were asking:

him to cover some funds, pretend to be the source of some funds,

I don't remember the exact reason.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any operational activity.

with his nephew?

Mr. Phillips. Carlos Todd?

Mr. Goldsmith. Right.

Mr. Phillips. No. Carlos Todd was a very, very bright

man, and I think he figured out very early in the game that

I probably -- there was something funny about the fact that

I was still living in Cuba without much public relations

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business,

and this and that and the other, and I think he

suspected that I was Agency, but I don't recall ever using

him in an operational sense.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever use Mr. Lobo for recruitment

purposes, to recruit an agent??

Mr. Phillips: Now that you say that, it seems. to me.

that perhaps that meeting with him had to do with something

that was

going on in Spain with some agent that we wanted to

approach in Spain that he knew, possibly something like that.

I don't recall the details.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did he ever suggest people to you to

contacts to use as agents?

Mr. Phillips. I am sure he did. I don't recall that he

did to me specifically that one time we met.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever heard of a person named

Rufo Lopez: F'resquet?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I have.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who is that person?

Mr. Phillips.

He was a government minister under Castro,

of Fidel Castro's original cabinet members who, like all

the others, became disillusioned with Castro and came to this

country. He was a very close friend of some friends of mine

in the embassy, not connected with CIA, and I met him at some

parties.

I didn't have any personal relationship with him

myself and never used him.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Did he ever assist the Agency in any way

with regard to recruitment?

Mr. Phillips. Well, remember that I was on the outside.

in Cuba, so I can't say precisely what the people in the

station did. They may have dealt with him. It was my under-

standing that he was a very close friend of the chief of USIA

in Cuba, and if the Agency used him, I don't know it.. I .

did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about a person named Mariada Arensburg?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you tell the Committee who this

person is?

Mr. Phillips. My children were going to a school, and

Mariada Arensburg, an American woman, was the number two or

three person running that school, the vice principal or

something like that. I got to know her because of the school.

I later found out -- I did not know it then - that she was

politically active in trying to help some of the school who

were trying to leave Cuba and that sort of thing, and I

remember that she was a particular friend of Rufo Lopez:

Fresquet.

Then Mrs. Arensburg came to the United States, and I.

did have operational contact with her there

Mr. Goldsmith. And when specifically was this incident?

Mr. Phillips. This was during the preparations for the

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Bay of Pigs, and we were looking for someone who spoke perfect

Spanish and knew Cuba to head a committee to cover-some

broadcasting activities, and she was hired for that purpose.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was that the only time that you used her?

Mr. Phillips. Well, I didn't use her at all in Cuba.

It was within -- that association was - she stayed there for

some time in that job. Yes, that is the only time I recall

using her.

MI. Goldsmith. Did you ever use her for recruitment

purposes?

contact?

Mr. Phillips. No, I don't recall ever doing that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did she ever suggest people to you to

Mr. Phillips. Undoubtedly. We became very, very close

friends, and we have seen each other frequently since those

years, so undoubtedly she might have done some.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about a man named Jack Cogswell?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, an American businessman in Havana.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever use him as a

go-between

between you and one of your agents or assets?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that I did. He might very

well have been used by the station.

Can you do something to refresh my memory? That name

is very familiar to me, an American businessman in Cuba.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am afraid I can't help you out on that.

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Mr. Phillips. Okay:

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall whether he may have helped

you in your recruitment efforts?

Mr. Phillips. He may have because that name is very, very

familiar to me.

I can't recall the instance if it is true.

Mr. Goldsmith.: You will contact the Committee if you--

Mr. Phillips. I certainly shall.

Mr. Goldsmith. The name Samuel Kell, is that familiar?

Mr. Phillips. Vaguely.

Mr. Goldsmith. Could that person have been a military

attache at the Havana /embassy?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work with Mr. Kell?

Mr. Phillips. 'I did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about Ewing Smith?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that name.

Mr. Goldsmith. A politicäl advisor at the embassy.

Mr. Phillips. Ewing Smith? I think that Ewing Smith

must have not called himself Ewing but something else. I

thought I rememberedaa man named David Smith who was a

political advisor, but Ewing Smith I don't recall. But there

was a man in the embassy named Smith.:

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever heard of an organization

called the Celula Fantasma?

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Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall ever attempting to penetrate

that, organization with an asset or agent?

Mr. Phillips. No, I don't.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, you testified earlier that

you were initially recruited by the Agency in Chile.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did you leave Chile?

Mr. Phillips. On the 14th of March of 1954.

Mr. Goldsmith. And after leaving Chile, were you ever?

involved in any CIA operations there again?

Mr. Phillips. In Chile?

Mr. Goldsmith. Right.:

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Posada?

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MI. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who is Mr. Posada?

Mr. Phillips. I believe that he was a Cuban in Mexico

City who ran this complex I was telling you about, the Cuban

refugee center.:: I am not positive, but I know I worked --

that name is -- yes, I did work with him, and I think I

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recall that he was the man in Mexico City. I am not absolutely

sure about that

Mr. Goldsmith. What about a man named Lucillo Pena?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that one.

Mr. Goldsmith, Is it possible that you may have worked

with Mr. Posada in reference to any Chile operations?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, it is quite possible.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work on any Castro assassina-

tion plots?

Mr. Phillips. I did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. In any manner whatsoever?.

Mr. Phillips. No manner whatsoever. I didn't. know about

them until much later.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know a man named Victör Fernandez?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that name.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about Victor Ocarlos?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir. I don't recall that.

Mr. Goldsmith: What about a man named. Antonio Veciana?

Mr. Phillips. Antonio Veciana?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. Phillips. The only thing. I know about Mr. Veciana

is what I read in Jack Anderson's column and New Times Magazine.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what is that.

Mr. Phillips. I believe that Antonio Veciana was a man

that I have met twice in my life, the first time under unusual

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circumstances, and the second time this morning when I -- I

presume that that was Antonio Veciana who came out of the

hearings this morning while I was waiting in the hall.

Mr. Goldsmith. And when was the first time that you met

Mr. Veciana?

Mr. Phillips. If the man I am talking about, the man who

was there this morning, is Mr. Veciana, I first met him on

the 18th of September of 1976. when the Association of Former

Intelligence Officers was having a convention at the Reston

Convention Center, on a Thursday and Friday. On Friday the

l8th in the morning, there was a telephone call and they said

they were calling from Senator Schweiker's office, and they

wanted to know whether three représentatives from Senator

Schweiker's office could come to our convention, and so of

course I said yes, we would be delighted to have them.

They arrived for lunch and so I had them sit at my table.

One was a Mr. Fonzi.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fonzi?

Mr. Phillips. Fonzi. One was a young lady whose name

I don't recall, and one was a man who was introduced to me only

as "the driver."

We had lunch and then I was asked by MI. Fonzi, I believe

jit was Mr. Fonzi, if I would mind answering some questions

about the Kennedy assassination, and I said fine, how long

will it take?

And he said, it will take a couple of hours.

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And I said really, that is very difficult for me because

I was in charge of the convention and we were trying to make our

schedule, but I did step into the hall, and at that time the

man I believed

to be Antonio Veciana put questions to me in

Spanish, and we chatted for a while in Spanish. They left and

I called Senator Schweiker's office.

and said I have just

been asked questions about the assassination in Spanish. IS

this man a member of your staff, because after we went in the

hall he was introduced not - no longer as the driver but as.

a member of Senator Schweiker's staff.

So I called Senator

Schweiker's office and said is this man, with whom I was

speaking only Spanish,

a member of your staff, and they said

yes, he is.

I am putting together some things here. A story came

out in New Times Magazine which would indicate that Mr. Veciana

was taken to that meeting, as it said in that magazine, to

find out whether or not I was a man called Morris Bishop.

The

man who I thinkiis Veciana I saw againathis morning.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did Mr. Veciana identify himself at that

time?

Mr. Phillips. No, he did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did anyone identify him as Veciana?

Mr. Phillips. No one identified him, gave him any, name

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at all.

Mr. Goldsmith. Maybe I missed your answer, but how

did

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you determine if that was Veciana?

Mr. Phillips. Because after I saw the magazine, in June.

of last year, a year later, the circumstances related in the

magazine story were obviously describing the incident where

this gentleman came out to see me.... Then I read an exact - the

name.was not used there. He was identified only as a Cuban

exile known as Carlos. Then I read in Jack Anderson's

column almost precisely the same story, that the man said --

the story that he gave about being given a large sum of

money by the CIA for termination pay and this and that and

the other, was the identical story, and in Jack Anderson's.

column it identified him as Antonio Veciana.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever used the named Firgault,

F-i-I-g-a-u₴l-t?

Mr. Phillips. As I -- I have already said I have used

so many names I don't remember, but I feel positive that

I didn't use that name.

I just can't see myself dreaming

that one up

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever used a Belgian passport??

Mr. Phillips. Never.

Mr. Goldsmith, Did Jullo Lobo ever suggest to you that

Veciana would be a good asset?

Mr. Phillips. Not that I recall. It could have been but

I certainly don't recall it.

Mr. Goldsmith. I think these are important questions

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We should try to be as precise as we can so that we don't have

the same situation with you coming back again.

Mr. Phillips. Right.

Mr. Golasmith. I'll ask the question again.

Did Julio Lobo ever suggest to you that Veciana would be

good asset?

Mr. Phillips. I have no recollection.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about. Rufo Lopez. Fresquet, did he

ever suggest to you that Veciana would be a good asset?

Mr. Phillips. He did not. He never - I don't think that

I have ever had a conversation with him except meeting?

him at a party. No, he did not..

Mr. Goldsmith. And what about Mariada Arensburg?

Mr. Phillips. No, I don't recall that she did.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Have you ever used the name John Bishop?

Mr. Phillips. Not to my knowledge. I don't think so,

no:

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Mr. Goldsmith. Jim Bishop?

Mr. Phillips. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Maurice Bishop?

Mr. Phillips. Definitely not.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are certain that you have never used

the name Maurice Bishop?

Mr. Phillips. I have thought about that a lot since I

have seen it in the public print, and I am sure that I never

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used the name Morris or Maurice Bishop.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you a picture at

this time or a sketch, and Mr. Chairman, there is a copy of

that sketch in the briefing book in the section pertaining

to the previous witness, and I would like to ask you if you

can identify that person.

Mr. Phillips. No, I cannot.

It looks like me. It looks more like my brother, but it

looks like me:

Mr. Goldsmith. Has your brother ever worked for the

CIA?

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Mr. Phillips. No, he has not. He is an attorney. And he

has stayed at his law firm in Fort Worth, Texas.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know of anyone in the CIA who has

üsed the name Maurice or Morris Bishop?

Mr. Phillips. No, I do not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded with this.

section of my questioning.

Mr. Preyer. Do you have some further questions?

Mr. Goldsmith. Some, yes, but I could use a few moments

if you are going to be asking some questions.:

Mr. Preyer. All right.

Mr. Fithian, any questions?

Mr. Fithian. No questions.

Mr. Preyer. Mr. Sawyer?

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Mr.Sawyer. I'll pass.

?

• Mr. Preyer. Mr. Dodd?

Mr. Dodd. Well, I was

going to take it back, if I could,

Mr. Phillips, to your response to the questions regarding the

cable traffic, and I wonder if you might just briefly explain

again for us how it was, according Sto your assessment,

based on the cable traffic that you had before you, the copies

9

of the cable traffic, anyway, and your own recollection; how.

"it was that the word "Henry", "Lee Henry Oswald" happened

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to appear in the cable traffic, and then, of course, the

indication off the word "Henry" of sic, indicating that someone

12

knew at that particular time that that was not the correct

.13

middle name of the individual?

Mr. Phillips. Well, sir, obviously in my earlier

15

testimony my recollection was that the message that went

from Mexico to the United States said we have a fellow down

17

here named Lee Henry Oswald. After that testimony and

18

after having seen the messages, I realize now, I am convinced

!. now that my recollection of the Henry came not from Mexico

but from that message from the United States. What the origin

21

of it was, why someone thought it was Henry and why someone

22

put the "sic" on it, I do not know, sir. I do not know

23

why it appeared in that cable Lee Henry Oswald.

24

Mr. Dodd. Would the indication of that, of the "sic"

25 have been a notation that would have been made in Mexico or

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in Washington?

Mr. Phillips. As I recall it, it was on a copy of

the cable which arrived in Mexico. That would be the answer

to your question.

But it seems to me, as I recall the indicators, but I am

not positive about that.

Mr.. Dodd. Normally you wouldn't make an annotation like

that before sending a cable?

Mr. Phillips. NO.

Mr. Dodd. You would retype the cable.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, you are probably right.

Mr. Dodd. So the conclusion one would reach was that

that was an annotation made in Washington.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I think you would, but I don't

know, sir. I really don't know.

Mr. Dodd.

Thank you. That is all.

Well, let me just - one other point. Was there ever in

your experience, knowing the chief there, what is his name --

Mr. Phillips. Winston Scott.

Mr. Dodd. Win Scott.

Was he the kind of individual

that would have: interchanged or used interchangeably the words,

the letters "aka" and "sic" interchangeably as having the

same

meaning?

Do you appreciate that?

Mr. Phillips. Yes. I don't think so. He was an

Coot

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intellectual. His great secret was that he wrote poetry. He

didn't want anyone else to know that. He was very well educated,

extremely well read, and no, he is not the kind of man --

Mr. Dodd. He would appreciate the distinction.

Mr. Phillips. He would appreciate the distinction between

the two.

Mr. Dodd. Thank you.

Mr. Preyer. bu were Chief of Covert. Actions in Mexico

City in 1963.

Had you been in Mexico City in some other capacity for

some time before that?

MI. Phillips. Yes, sir, from the fall of 1961.

Mr.. Preyer. From the fall of '61?

Mr. Phillips. That was the period I was Chief of Covert

Action, until 1963, when I then was told that my new job

would be chief of Cuban Operations. But in many aspects, those

jobs sort of overlapped in a way because so much of my work.

in covert action in the first, in '61-'62; had to do with

Cuba.

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Mr. Preyer. Still related to Cuba, did the reporter

Ron Kessler contact you originally about the story?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, he cälled me.

Mr. Preyer. All right, I have no further questions at

this time.:

Mr. Phillips. Counselor, is it out of line for me to

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make one other remark about Morris Bishop ascliknow the case,

or should I just let that one

go?

Mr. Goldsmith. Please do.

Mr. Phillips. If the stories which I have read in the

Jack Anderson column are accurate, and that Mr. Veciana's

story is that he workeds for many years for the CIA and this

and that and the other, and then was later given a large payment

of $150,000 or something to reward him for his service, I

can't say about all the time that I was in

and so forth, but as I recall it, those newspaper stories,

if they are accurate, said that he says he received this

large payment after I became the Chief of the Western Hemisphere

Division back in Washington. I believe it said it was in

September of '73. I became the chief in the summer of '73.

It is almost inconceivable to me that a payment of that

sum could be made to a Cuban exile without my being aware of

it. I certainly never signed off on that kind of payment, and

as I recall the dates, I was sitting in that seat. So that

meant that if he indeed did receive that kind of termination

pay - I have never heard of such a payment - during that

period, that Bill Colby must have done it, and I don't believe

Bill Colby would have done it because he would have told me

about it and kept me out of trouble.

But that one aspect I can say for the record quite surely,

¡I really don't believe that anyone at CIA made a large payment

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in I think it was September of

'73.

Mr.. Goldsmith. Are you aware of any payments by anyone

at the CIA to Veciana?

Mr. Phillips. None. Could have been.

Mr. Goldsmith. You said that you had a conversation with

Veciana when you met him the first time.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr.. Goldsmith. What wastthe.substance of:that conversat

tion?

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Mr. Phillips. I was simply answering questions. He was

asking me questions in Spanish.

Mr. Goldsmith. What were the questions?

Mr. Phillips. Oh, I don't know. I just -- I had the

funny feeling when he was asking the questions that what he

really wanted was: to listen to my accent in Spanish. I was

thought the whole thing was strange because when he sat at

the luncheon table, he didn't really eat very much. He spent

all of his time looking around this room with some 275 former

CIA people in it, as if he were looking for people. The

questions had to do with, what were you doing in Miami,

in Havana when you were there, this and that and the other.

I was quite, frankly quite surprised that I was being.

questioned in Spanish.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever had any operational activity

with a man named Gordon McClindon?

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Mx. Phillips. Operational activity?

No. Unusual social activity, including the time when

I was going to school at William and Mary and I came to.

Washington to a now defunct girls! school in Silver Spring

called National Park College, and when the prom was over I

accepted a ride back to school with a convivial fellow.

Unfortunately his school turned out to be Yale, and I went

the wrong way, and it was Gordon McClindon who took me.

Since then we have become, close friends and associates,

but. I have never had any operational activity with him whatso=

ever.

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Mr. Goldsmith.

And where does he work now?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. McClindon manages his investments..

He is an extremely, extremely wealthy man. Some of the

Congressmen may remember the man known on radio known as the

old Scotchman, who was the first man who recreated ballgames

with sound effects records, and he became very, very wealthy,

and I am now engaged with him in a television venture.

But

I have never hadi any CIA activity with him at all.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does Mr. McClindön do any work with your

brother in Texas?

Mr. Phillips. No. I think not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do they know each other?

Mr. Phillips. I am sure they have met because Mr.

McClindon ran at one time for the U.S. Senate. He has been

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well known in that Dallas-Fort Worth area.

I am sure they

have met. each other. Whether they are friends or not, I

don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith.

We chatted earlier during the recess,

and I asked you some questions about Howard Hunt.

To your knowledge, did Howard. Hunt and Frank Sturgis

know each other during the time that the Bay of Pigs operation

was under way?

Mr. Phillips. My -- I am not real sure about this, but

I believe that Howard. Hunt certainly met him during that

period before the Bay of Pigs. Howard for a time was living

in Miami and he met a lot of Cubans when he was down there, and

I think in a previous conversation we had, we were, discussing

the fact that Sturgis was connected with Pedro Diaz Lunz.

I believe that it was at that time that Howard first met him.

I am not positive.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall a conversation with Howard

in which he mentioned Sturgis?

Mr. Phillips. No, I don't. I had so many conversations

with Howard Hunt and I don't remember the name Sturgis coming

up; no. It was only after the Watergate business that it

really meant anything to me.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about the name Frank Fiorini?

Mr. Phillips- Yes, that name meant more because that

was the one that you heard more. Certainly I have heard

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of sturgis, and this and that and the other, but I don't

recall specifically Howard bringing it up. He might very well

have.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Is it your feeling, nevertheless, that

Hunt and Sturgis knew each other in '61?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, but I can't be positive that that is

true. It is possible that Howard met him afterwards, but I

am not -- I have a feeling that they knew each other before.

But I just can't be sure.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever see them together?

Mr. Phillips. Not to my knowledge. I could have.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am

going to read you a list of names

very quickly. The names are Jerry Buchanan, Hal Hendrix,

Lonnie Hudkins, Jeremiah O'Leary.

Have any of these people ever served as your assets or

agents?

Mr. Phillips. First of all, Jerry Buchanan is very

familiar. One of the names you mentioned doesn't strike any

bells. The two newspaper men, Hal Hendrix and Jerry O'Leary

certainly do. Jerry O'Leary happens to be a very close personal

friend of mine.

In neither case did either of these two newsmen ever work

"for me or work for the CIA to my knowledge. They certainly

and I know that they didn't work for me. They were both

newspaper men, perhaps, but the two of them were the two top

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experts.

Mr. Goldsmith. Which two are you referring to now?

Bucharan and O'Leary?

Mr. Phillips. No, not Buchanan. That's - I just

say that is familiar to me, but O'Leary and Hendrix.

Mr. Goldsmith. Hendrix.

Mr. Phillips. But when Hendrix, before he went to work

first for Intercontinental Hotels and then ITT, was a top

notch Latin American correspondent as Jerry O'Leary has

continued to be, and so they did not fit in the category

of assets or agents or anything else. They were certainly

friendly newspaper people we exchanged information with. And

one result of that is Jerry O'Leary is a olose personal

friend of mine. But he did not work for the Agency in any

way.

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As.you know, Hal Hendrix later became involved in the

Chile-ITT business and he was not an employee of the Agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever given any of these

individuals information pertaining to the assassination of

the President?

Mr. Phillips: Oh, yes, certainly. I don't know about

Hendrix, I don't know whether I have him, but I have known

Jerry so very well for so -- we have dinner together and our

wives, and this and that and the other. He has been on the

intelligence: beat. He has followed up and I have told him

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my side of things, told him what I knew and this that and

the other.

Mr. Goldsmith. Could you be more specific in terms of

the information that you gave him?

Mr. Phillips. Only in the sense that. I have known

Jerry O'Leary for so many years that when we get together

at dinnertime we talk about what is going on in Washington.

I don't recall specifically.

I do recall specifically that I haven't talked to him

about details of my testimony before this Committee in 1976,

for instance, not that, but. I certainly have talked with him

about the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And you don't recall the substance, right

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Mr. Phillips. No. The general substance.: I think I

for the record should say that I have talked to a number of

newspapermen generally about the assassination. I have been

on the David Suskind? talk show about it, etc., etc., etéc

Mr. Goldsmith.

What about Jerry Buchanan?

Mr. Phillips: That name is familiar. I don't place it

iight now.

Mr. Goldsmith. You indicated that there were two people

that you discussed the assassination with. O'Leary was one.

Who was the other?

Mr. Phillips. I suppose that I would say that I--I

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would havesto say that I discussed it with Hendrix because when

I used to see Hendrix on many occasions we would talk about

everything that had to do with Latin America and I just, I

think it is inevitable that we must have talked about the

Kennedy Assassination. He knew I was in Mexico City and

so forth.

I certainly don't recall any specifics.

Mr. Goldsmith. Finally, did Howard Hunt or Frank. Bender

ever ask you to help finance the repair of an airplane, a

B-25 owned by Frank Sturgis?

Mr. Phillips. Well, if it was

Mr. Goldsmith. I will give you more background. The

purpose of this would have been to have had Pedro Diaz Lunz

fly leaflet missions over Cuba.

Mr. Phillips. Xes, I recall that Howard -- I don't

believe it was Bender because Howard and Bender hardlyyever.

got together. They weren't getting along very well in those

days, but. I do have the recollection of Howard coming to

me and talking about the airplane, and I sort of had the idea

that I gave them some money so that this man could drop some

leaflets or something like that, but now that you refresh.

my memory, I think it was to repair the plane aso that they

could do it.

Yes, I recall that, but I recall it being Howard Hunt

and not Bender.

Mr. Goldsmith. So it was Howard Hunt, and would this be

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an example of a situation which leads you to believe that

Hunt and Sturgis in fact knew each other?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I think so. I recall that Howard

Hunt's book mentioned the fact that he had come to me and

I said sure, you can have some money for the plane or something

like that.

Mr. Goldsmith., I have nothing further.

Mr. Preyer. Have you written a book or are you writing

a

book? Did I get that from the testimony?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I have written a book which has

now been published, and during - in 1976 when I appeared

before you I submitted for the record at that time the pages

of the book which had to do with the Kennedy assassination.

Since then I have written another book which is

going to be

published in October, but it is fiction and it does not have

to do with assassination, with the Kennedy assassination.

Mr. Preyer. For the record,. I will ask, have you ever

i seen or ever met Lee Harvey. Oswald?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I havenot.:

Mr. Preyer. Are there any other questions that anyone

has at this time?

Mr. Fithian. I would like to ask two very sweeping

questions just to satisfy my own curiosity.

You have been pretty close to this whole story of the

assassination and were on the scene where part of it was

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played out.:

Is it your judgment that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone

assassin?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, it is obvious that I don't have

the information that you do, especially about Dallas.

But it is my belief that until I see some other evidence

to the contrary; God knows I would like for it to come out

that Fidel Castro was responsible or that the Soviets were

responsible because there are so many people, especially on

college campuses who are convinced the CIA did it. I found

myself being accused publicly of perjury before the Congress

by Mark. Lane during debates on college campuses, so I would

like for something like this to come out, büt I know of no

evidence to show that the Cubans or the Soviets put him up to

it, and I just have to go along on the side that he was. a

kind of a loony fellow who decided to shoot the President, and

he did. I just have to come down on that.

In a caseion the west coast, two women tried separately

to assassinate President Ford within a very short time of

each other. We never hear the slightest suggestion that there

was a conspiracy, and the reason, I believe, is that they

missed. Lee Harvey. Oswald didn't miss, and the American public

doesn't want to believe that one man could murder Camelot.

And. so I comé down on that side but that is justropinion..

Mr. Fithian. And you have no inkling that anyone in

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Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not.

The Chairman asked me a minute ago if I had known Lee

Harvey Oswald. I have a number of children yet to go through

college, and I am in the lecturing business, and I could

quadrupleemy income overnight if I could change the title

to the CIA Man Who Knew Oswald. I would make half a million

dollars next year. But I don't know of any such connections.

Mx. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Phillips.

Mr. Preyer. Thank you, Mr. Phillips.:

As was indicated earlier, when we complete the testimony,

we do, make availabletto the witness an opportunity to make a

statement for five minutes. If you have a further statement.

that you would like to make at this time we will be happy to

heariit.

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I think I just made more statement

than you would want to hear.

I would like to say I would be delighted to come back to

this Committee any time and try to be as useful as I can.

Mr. Preyer. Thank you, Mr. Phillips. We appreciate

that:

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May I ask you for one thing. Could you provide us with

a picture of yourself about the year 1963? If you are like

Ime, you probably only have those high school pictures available?

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Mr. Phillips. Generally speaking, sir, spies don't

keep a lot of pictures of themselves, but I have one of them

in a Navy üniform in Mexico City about that time when I was

ina play, and. I was playing the part of a Naval officer, and

it is about 1963, and I can provide the Committee with that.

Mr. Preyer. Thank you.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, excuse me. I would like to

interrupt. Before I forget, I would like to have the

photograph we showed Mr. Phillips marked as JFK Exhibit 104

and introduced into the record.

Mr. Preyer. Without objection, that is ordered, admitted

in the record.

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(The document referred to was marked

as JFK Exhibit No. 104 for

identification.)

Mr: Preyer. We appreciate very much your appearing here

today, Mr. Phillips, and at this time we will excuse you,

and I hope we haven't inconvénienced you too much.

We

appreciateyyouraarranging your schedule to be here today."

The Committee will recess at this time until 9:00 o'clock

tomorrow morning in room 1310 of the Longworth Building.

(Whereupon, at 6:08 o'clock p.m., the Subcommittee recessed,

to reconvene at 9:00 o'clock a.m.,,Wednesday; April 26, 1978.)

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