Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
From: SHAW, ROBERT T.
Document date: 16/5/78 00:00
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Date:

4/16/201

Agency Information

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER :

HSCA

180-10110-10017

RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014727

Document Information

ORIGINATOR :

FROM:

TO :

TITLE :

HSCA

[Restricted]

DATE: 05/16/1978

PAGES:

78

SUBJECTS :

CIA, FILES

CIA, METHODOLOGY

[Restricted]

[Restricted]

MEXICO

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Secret

RESTRICTIONS: 1B

CURRENT STATUS : Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 04/05/2017

OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS:

Includes index and two duplicates.Box 5.

v9.1

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• 206 a

CASCIONE: amt

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EXECUTIVE SESSION

TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978:

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U.S. House of Representatives,

Subcommittee on the Assassina-

tion of John F. Kennedy of

the Select Committee on

Assassinations,

Washington, D.C.

• The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:40 p.M.

in room 3370, House Annex No. 2, 2nd and D Streets, S.W.

Present: Michael Goldsmith and Dan Hardway.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Reporter, would you please swear

in the witness?

The Reporter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony

which you are about to give will be the truth, the whole

truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Shaw.

I do.

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TESTIMONY OF ROBERT T. SHAW

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you state your name and address

for the record?

Mr. Shaw.

Robert T. Shaw,

Fairfax,

Virginia, 22031.

Mr. Goldsmith.

What is your present occupation, Mr.

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MI. Shaw. I am I

with the Department of State,

but my actual occupation is Inspector, Officé of the Inspector

General, Central Intelligence Agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I handed you earlier a copy

of a letter from the Acting Director of the Central Intelli-

gence, Mr. Carlucci, to the Chairman of this Committee. It

corresponds to JFK Exhibit No. 94 in the Committee's hearing

record.

Have you had a chance to read that letter?

Mr. Shaw.. I read. it justinow.

MI. Goldsmith. Do you: understand it?

Mr. Shaw. I understand it.

Mr. Goldsmith. I also would like to hand you the

Committee's rules and resolutions and ask you at this time

to read Rule No. 4 to yourself.

• (Pause)

Mr. Shaw. I read it over.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that?

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Mr. Shaw. I understand it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that you have a right

to counsel?

Mr.. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you waive that right to counsel?

Mr. Shaw. I do not need counsel.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do your understand that, under the

Committee rules, that you have a right to receive a copy of

the statement you are going to give us at this deposition?

Mr. Shaw. I should hope so, to check it for accuracy.

Mr. Goldsmith. However, by virtue of the arrangement

that the Committee has worked out with the Central Intelligence

Agency, we have been asked

to request of Agency employees that

they waive their right to receive a copy of the deposition

for their own retention. By that, I mean we would certainly

be willing to grant you access to the deposition, to correct

it in any way necessary, but the Agency has requested that

we ask you to waive your right to receive an actualy copy of

the deposition.

Mr. Shaw. I have no problem with that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you.

For the record, I would like to say that the Committee's

mandate is to investigate the assassination of the President.

The scope of the mandate includes who killed the President,

was there a conspiracy? We are also required to evaluate

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the performance of the investigative agencies, specifically

the FBI and the CIA and to evaluate the work of the Warren

Commission.

Do you understand that as well?

Mr. Shäw. Yes.

Mr. Goldmsith. Prior to coming here today, have you

discussed what your tesimony is going to be with any CIA

employee?

Mr. Shaw. I have not, except-to tell them that I was

going to tellithe truth when I got over here.

Mr. Goldsmith. In terms of discussing the substance of

your testimony?

Mr. Shaw. None whatever.

Mr.. Goldsmith. Have you discussed with any CIA employee,

past or present, who either has been interviewed by the

Committee or has given a

statement under oath, to the Committee,

what questions were asked of him or her?

Mr. Shaw. I have not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you here today voluntarily and

without subpoena?

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, how long have you been working

under State Department cover?

Mr. Shaw. Since approximately the date I came aboard,

because I was promptly sent to the Department of State for

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training. That would be March, 1948.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would your State Department file, if

reviewed by a member of this Committee, indicate that you were

actually a CIA employee?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.

Mr. Goldsmith. You do not understand how the cover

arrangement would work between the Agency and the Department

of State?

Mr. Shaw.. I have never had anything to do with the

setting up of such cover. It would well be that there might

be some sort of an indicator of flag, or something in that

file that would indicate to a person who knew the ropes that

I was not bona fide.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would there be a personnel file on you

at the Central Intelligence Agency?

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of procédure, in terms of

how you get paid, do you get paid by the Department of State?

Mr. Shaw.

No. I am under, at the present time, nominal

state cover.. I actually, as. far as the Department of State

is concerned, resigned over there in 1973, I believe. At

the present time, I am paid by the. Agency.

Mr. "Goldsmith. When you were working under cover, were

you being paid by State at that time?

Mr. Shaw. Yes, I was.

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Mr: Goldsmith. Are you familiar at all with the

literature that has been generated by the assassination of

the President and the work done by the Warren Commission?

Mr. Shaw. Very little. I just noticed that green book

there a minute ago. I have never read that thing.

Mr. Goldsmith. Book 5, for the record, of the Senate

Committee Report.

Mr. Shaw. I have seen copies of the Warren Commission

Report in various places around the government, but I never

read it.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you were working with the State

Department in other than a nominal capacity, what was your

title?

Mr. Shaw. My last title was Special Assistant to the

Ambassador and First Secretary of Embassy

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work as a consular officer?

Mr. Shaw. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you worked as a consular officer,

were you required to fulfill both responsibilities as a con-

sular officer and as a CIA employee?

Mr. Shaw.

To a certain extent.

For example, I have never issued a visa.. I have issued

a passport for another consular officer who accepted the

application and I would be on the road in northwestern Mexico

and issued the passport to the American citizen concerned.

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I have done a modicum of what we call protection and

welfare work.

This would usually involve being again on the

road, stopping in, for example, in a prison to see if there

was an American citizen there, to find out what the story

was, why he was there, how he was being treated and that sort

of thing, and relay that information to the consular when I

got back.

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I think that it has to do basically with the permissive-

ness, or lack thereof, of the operational environment that.

you are in. In Mexico, it was not necessary to spend much

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time, at least not for me, on cover duties.

Mr. Goldsmith.

How long have you been working for the

Office of the Inspector General?

Mr. Shaw. Since August of 1976.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any responsibility in the

writing of the 1977 Inspector General Report pertaining to

the CIA's handling of the investigation of the Kennedy

assassination?

Mr. Shaw. None whatever.

• Mr. Goldsmith.

Has anyone ever interviewed you before

pertaining to the Mexico City situation as far as it pertained

to Oswald?

Mr. Shaw.

Yes.

It was about that time of '76, some-

body interviewed me in the CIA Headquarters building, and I

think it was a Senate Committee, but I aminot sure.

They had

some files.

MI. Goldsmith. Did you give your testimony under oath

at that time?

Mr. Shaw. No, not that I remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did any CIA person ever interview you

concerning Lee Harvey Oswäld's activities in Mexico City and

the operations of the Mexico City station?

Mr. Shaw. I would have to qualify that. We discussed

the subject, of course, in Mexico City at the time of the

assassination, or immediately after the assassination.

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But I cannot recall that I was ever called in anywhere

and asked for my account of what transpired after the assassina-

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Mr. Goldsmith. Headquarters never asked you to come in

and give a description, for example, of Oswald's activities,

to

your knowledge, in Mexico City in 1963?

Mr. Shaw. No. I would not have known anything about

Oswald's activities anyway.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you familiar with the photograph

that was taken in 1963 that was reportedly linked to Oswald

and which subsequently turned out not to be a picture of

Oswald?

Mr. Shaw.

I am familiar with a photograph that was

identified by people

at the station in Mexico City as possibly!

being an American-appearing person. I do not know that it

-was every considered to be Oswald.

I think, if I remember correctly, what they were doing

Mr. Goldsmith. We will get into that. My question is,

did anybody from Headquarters ever ask you about that parti-

cular photograph or the circumstances surrounding it?

Mr. Shaw. Negative.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did anybody from Headquarters ever ask

you to give a statement or report as to the manner in which

the surveillance operation in Mexico City were underatken in

1963?

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Mr: Shaw.

No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Where were you serving in 1963?

Mr. Shaw. From about the middle of April, I was serving

in Mexico City in our station.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long did you stay in Mexico City?

Mr. Shaw. I stayed there until September of 1966.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Station Chief in Mexico

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Mr. Shaw. Winston Scott.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give us your assessment of

his competence?

Mr. Shaw. Competence. It is difficult, because I was

not looking from on high. He was a brilliant man. He was

reputed to have a doctorate in mathematics. He had an uncanny

ability to remember numbers and he carried in his head the

file numbers of what we

called P-files in Mexico City. P

stood, I think, for personality. A P number usually was four

digits or so, maybe five digits.

And he carried all these numbers in his head and he could

mark something for such and such a file in black ink -- he

always wrote in black ink -- putting the number down. He had

a very good memory for numbers.

Winn and I were friendly.

We were not close.

We were

not on the same level at all.

I considered him to be, from my standpoint, a competent,

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effective, Chief of Station.

Mr. Goldsmith. What type of file-keeping system did

he have in effect, without asking you to describe it in detail?

By that, my question is directed towards his thoroughness and

comprehensiveness.

Mr. Shaw. I would say that he probably had one of the

most -- let me see -- complete file systems in being in the

Agency. I think that he, my personal opinion is that he went

overboard, and we had so much stuff back in our files, it

was hard to believe the amount of paper we had in there.

His tendency was

not to rely on cross-indexing. If

you have a document, this piece of paper means something to

you and you want to keep it and it has 15 names on it, he

was quite capablé of setting up 15 files for the same piece

of paper. And we had a tremendous file room.

I often wondered if we needed that much paper. It was

very thorough. I am not a technician as far as managing

files, but I do know that the people who worked in the file

room were kept very, very busy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who were Mr.. Scott's chief deputies?

Let me rephrase the question. Upon which individuals did he

tend to rely the most?

Mr. Shaw. He had one Deputy who was Allen White. As

far as reliance on other people, I would say he relied very

heavily on Annie Goodpasture -- not in any way in a command

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function, but as a Girl Friday.

He also seemed to

think. rather highly of a former one-timel

FBI agent named George Monroe.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about David Phillips?

Mr. Shaw. Yes.: Dave Phillips ran the, what we called the

CA side of the shop, covert action, mostly propaganda. I came

to Mexico City with the understanding that I was going to head

up the Cuban shop. Very soon after I arrived there, Dave

Phillips was tapped -- it was while we were still in the old

Embassy building.

He was tapped and named the new Cuban Office Chief.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did that happen in October '63?

Mr. Shaw.. I don't know. I do not remember.. But it was

not too long after I was there, and I was asked, I think by

Dave; I don't remember -* if I had any objections to continuing

to serve in Cuba.

I liked Dave, I respected him. I did not feel that I

was being hurt, hurt careerwise, to step back and I was very

interested in Cuban operations, so I did willingly, let us say,

relinquish command, if you want to, of Cuban Ops and I served

Dave as one more officer.

Later on, after Dave left, a year or two later, I once

lagain took over the Cuban Ops group.

Mr. Goldsmith. You were in charge of Cuban Operations at

¡the beginning. Then Phillips took it over at some point and

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then, after Phillips left, you went back to that position?

Mr Shaw.

That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Our review of Agency records indicates

that Phillips would have assumed that position on October of

'63. Would that be consistent with your recollection?

Mr. Shaw. My recollection would have been, had you not

told me this based on your review of the files, that it took

place earlier than October, but I do not. know. I really do not

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Mr. Goldsmith. My questions are going to be confined,

unless I indicate to the contrary, to the period up to the

end of 1963.

So, from the time of your arrival in Mexico City

until the end of 1963, prior to the time that Mr. Phillips

assumed the position of Cuban operations --

Mr. Shaw. Chief.

Mr. Goldsmith. Chief would be the word, and you had those

responsibilities, what did those responsibilities include?

Mr. " Shaw.:.

Since it was not ratified to me upon my

arrival that. I was, indeed, Chief of Cuban Ops, I simply con-

sidered myself to be one more case officer working against

the Cuban target. Our basic interest was in effecting pene-

trations of the Cuban government.

What we wanted most of all were effective penetrations

of the Cuban Embassy, the Cuban Intelligence Service, and some

possible line-in to their communications set-up.

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Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963, did you manage to place any

penetration agents in the Cuban Embassy of consulate?

Mr. Shaw. Did I?

Mr. Goldsmith. Did the station?

Mr. Shaw. There were two. I did not place either one,

and I think they both pre-dated 1963.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were those two penetration agents within

the Cuban consulate or Embassy at the time of the President's

assassination?

Mr.. Shaw.

Yes. One was in the consulate -- LITAMIL-7

was the cryptonym. L-I-T-A-M-I-L-7. And the other one was

in the Embassy -- LAI-T-A-M-I-L-9.

Mr. Goldsmith. What information did these people give

¡ you afted the assassination pertaining to the possible involve-

ment of the Cuban government?

Mr. Shaw.

I did not handle LITAMIL-7,and LITAMIL-9. I

did handle,

Mr. Goldsmith. Who handled LITAMIL-7?

Mr. Shaw. I think that it. was

but I am not

sure. I did not meet LITAMIL-7 until

left the

country•

Mr. Goldsmith. You nevertheless have had access to the

information that this individual gave to Swider?

Mr. Shaw. I would normally have seen copies of contact

reports which were reports that we wrote.-- any of us who were

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case officers wrote -- after station meetings, and it would

have been normal for me, for example, to see any information

of consequence that LITAMIL-7 produced, just like it would

have been normal for any other case officer in the Cuban sec-

tion to see my contact reports on meetings with LITAMIL-9.

Mr. Goldsmith. In light of that, do you know what infor-

mation LITAMIL-Z'/gave concerning the Cuban government's reac-

tion to the death of the President?

Mr. Shaw. I do not recall, and I do not recall the

specifics of anything. You may have something in your files

with my name on it; I do not know what LITAMIL-9 produced.

I do have the recollection of the sense of feeling on the

part of those people that there was no exultation or jubila-

tion or happiness whatsoever inside the Cuban Embassy at the

assassination of President Kennedy:

Mr: Goldsmith. Did the penetration agents ever indicate

that Oswald. had been to the Embassy and had stated that he was

going to attempt to kill the President?

Mr. Shaw. No, not that I know of.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of those agents ever indicate that

Oswald had had contact with the Agency - with the Embassy,

rather?

Mr. Shaw. I whould imagine that LITAMIL-7 probably did

I do not recall it. But since she was in the consulate, and

-since it was my understanding that Oswald's contact with the

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consular field rather than with the Embassy field, I should

imagine, given the discussions that undoubtedly took place in

the Cuban Embassy after this assassination, that she probably

spoke about it. I do not know.

- Mr. Goldsmith. What was the name of LITAMIL-7?

Mr. Shaw. I'd rather not give names.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, in light of your response, I am

certainly aware of the sensitivity of this issue and of your

concern for sources and methods, and I would also make two

points. One is that under the letter, you are free of your

secrecy obligation. At the same time, I am not about to rely

upon that letter to compel an answer out of you, because you

are here voluntarily today to help us. And, as I said, because

I understand your concern for a sensitive source in this case,

I

am not going to ask you to state for the record the name of

either one of these individuals.

Mr. Shaw. May I say something at this point?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

MI. Shaw., It is my understanding that both of these

people are, if they are still alive, are living in Mexico and

I do not want to be in a position of revealing a name which

could harm either of those people. I notice here that it says

Mr. Goldsmith. You are referring now to the letter from

Mr. Carlucci?

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receive quidance from me or my designees on the applicability

of this authorization, particularly to questions which are

asked."

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I would like to get Frank Carlucci to tell me that I would!

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reveal two names of agents, if it is necessary -- or you can

find out from the file, probably, who they are.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I understand your position.

I want to make sure you understand mine. I am in no way

forcing you to reveal a name. Once you had demonstrated a

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reluctance to, then, as far as I was concerned, then the

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matter was terminated.

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Mr. Shaw. No problem?

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Mr. Goldsmith. I will say that we will pursue this by

contacting the appropriate people at the Agency.

Mr. Shaw. I think if you requested the Agency for those

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two names, it would probably produce them. I wouldn't want to!

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be the quy, to say it.

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Mr. Goldsmith. I understand your position perfectly.

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I hope you understand mine.

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Mr. Shaw. I do.

Mx. Goldsmith. I would not want you to go back to the

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Mr. Shaw. I will not say any such thing.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine.

For the record, would you spell the cryptonyms of these

penetration agents?

Mr. Shaw. One of them was LITAMIL-7 -- L-I-T-A-M-I-L - 7.

The other was LITAMIL-9.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are these two agents still active?

Mr. Shaw. Neither one is active. I am quite sure that

neither one is active.

Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, LITAMIL-7,

was that agent working out of the consulate?

Mr. Shaw. That agent was an employee of the consular

section of the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. LITAMIL-9 was an

officer of the Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, on the question of the identity

of these two agents, when you go back to the Agency, could you

raise this question with the appropriate individual, appropri-

ate superior authority, and we will do the same so that some

time this week we can get together on that?

Mr. Shaw. I do not see any reason for us to get together.

You can get it from them, I am sure. It is just that I have

a

rather strong feeling about protecting anybody who has

¡cooperated with us.

It is not that I consider you do not have a right to that

information, if you feel that you need it. It is just that I

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cannot bring myself to reveal the true name of an agent unless

I am required to do so.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that concern. I certainly

respect it.

(Pause)

I have been informed by my researcher, Dan Hardway, that

the Agency is in the process of looking into this issue.

Mr. Shaw. Okay.

Mr. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like to get into

the area of the telephone taps that were in operation in 1963

against the Cuban Embassy and consulate. My first question is,

what responsibility, if any, did you have with regard to the

telephone tap operation?

Mr. Shaw. No responsibility. I saw the product,

usually:

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who was in charge

of that tap?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know whose responsibility it was.

rather suspect that it may have been Ann Goodpasture's, but

I do not know for sure. I do not remember.

There were two telephone operations, two tap operations.

One of them was unilateral and one of them was joint with the

Mexican government.

Mr. Goldsmith. Which one was the unilateral one? By

that, I mean which phones were covered by the unilateral one?

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Mr. Shaw. There was a mix, and I cannot recall which

were which. It may well have been that we were tapping some

Cuban Embassy phones unilaterally, and some of them were being

tapped jointly.. I know that there was coverage on the joint tap

operation, which I believe was called LIENVOY. I am not sure.

Mr. Goldsmith. That is correct.

You indicated that you think Ann Goodpasture may have been

responsible for the telephone tap operation against the Cuban

operation. What basis do you have for that?

Mr. Shaw.

Responsible in the sense of picking up the take.

I am not sure of that, because I know she did some of that kind

of work. I am not sure who did it. We used to get copies of

the transcripts and I remember - I am sure I saw some of the

Cuban stuff on joint taps. And then, of course, taps that

were run by the Mexican government.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review the-transcripts that came

in as a matter of regular routine?

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you read all of them?

Mr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Which ones would you read?

Mr. Shaw. I would have been interested primarily in the

Cuban ones, and what they called the resuma -- it was sort of

a Spanish word for resume - the resuma was a distillation,

if you will, of the digest of the joint tap that was prepared,

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You look at the resuma,

which may be two pages, and you may have the gist of what might

be a whole bunch of pages of tap.

Mr. Goldsmith. Normally, you read transcripts of conver-

sations that took place on telephones of the Cuban Embassy,

is that correct?

Mr: Shaw. Normally, I read some of that stuff. I do not

remember whether I saw it all or not, because quite a bit of

it was processed by other people. I do not know who they were,

people on the outside, I suppose. And I read summaries of

what appeared on these things, but I remember also, at times,

==

seeing the verbatim -- Man Outside says

so and so; Person

Inside, Woman Inside, says such and such.

Mr. Goldsmith. Sometimes you would get summary trans-

criptions.of: the summary conversations or English and sometimes

you would get verbatim translations, is that correct?

Mr. Shaw. Yes. I would see them, I would not get them.

They would go past me. I would see them.

MI. Goldsmith. Was it more likely that what you would see

in verbatim form, conversations. that took place, for example,

in Russian and had to be translated before you received them?

Mr. Shaw.

I certainly would not see any conversations

in Russian, because the Cuban Embassy did not have any Russian

conversations. I cannot readly answer that question. I am

not

really sure I fully understand it. I do remember seeing

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• variety of take, what we call take, from the various tap

operations. This take sometimes was processed into English.

The stuff that appeared in the resuma was in Spanish. Sometimes

the conversations were typed out in Spanish and translated into

English. I prefer them in Spanish, because I am at home in

Spanish.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people reviewed the take from

the surveillance operation of the Cuban Embassy and consular

telephones?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. I assume there were quite a

few.

The stuff was widely passed around.'

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, how many people

would review them?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people were in Cuban operations?

Mr. Shaw. I would quess five or six.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who were they?

Mr. Shaw. Däve Phillips:

Mr. Goldsmith. We are talking now about the period 1963?

Mr. Shaw.

That is right. Dave Phillips, myself

I am trying to think of the girl's name.

We had

various secretaries in there. I do not know who was the secre-

tary in '63.

I'm not sure she was there at

that time.

Of course, Allen White would see it. Winn Scott would see

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Mr. Goldsmith. They would not review every transcript

or summary that came in, would then? Allen White or Winn Scott?

Mr. Shaw. I imagine Winn Scott; I do not know about

Allen White. Winn was pretty much, he tended to review almost

all of the paper that came in and out of the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying that there was no routine

procedure established for who was to review the take from the

Cuban telephone surveillance operations?

Mr. Shaw. I am saying that, when I got there, the case

officers in Cuban Ops saw this stuff that was routed around

through the station and that persisted during the time that

I was there.

Mr. Goldsmith.

I am not sure that the answer --

Mr. Shaw. How that was routed, I am not sure.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you customarily see every conversa-

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Mr. Shaw. I doubt it. I doubt it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have seen the conversation and

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Mr. Shaw. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who brought in the take from these opera-

tions to the station?

Mr. Shaw.

I do not know that either, but it was my

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understanding that non-official cover people on the outside

picked up the tapes -- don't consider this gospel, but this

is my understanding -- picked up tapes from the various listen-

ing posts, some of which had been processed by people in the

listening post; some of which had not. But they, in turn,

either processed those tapes or took them to people to continue

the processing in case they had a foreign lanquage in them, or

something, and then turn them over to the station.

Somebody went out from the station, probably with a little

attache case or something, and picked up takes again. It is

my understanding that the person primarily involved in that

was Ann Goodpasture, but I do not know for sure.

Mr. Goldsmith.

" Who was the first person that the trans-

cripts would go to upon their arrival at the Embassy?

Mr: Shaw. I rather suspect Winn Scott, because I remember

great numbers of those white pages that came across our desk:

had P numbers written on them in black ink by Winn Scott.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how many lines were being

tapped at the Cuban consulate?and Embassy?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. You reviewed the transcripts and summaries

of these conversations for two years and you have no idea how

many lines were tapped?

Mr. Shaw. No. This was fifteen years ago. I can give

you a quess.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Sure. A best quess would be helpful.

Mr. Shaw. I would quess three of four lines. The primary

interest was in the Soviets. You had far more converage.

That is a quess.

Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.

Mr. Shaw. I would quess, off-hand, two lines in the

Embassy, one line in the consulate.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the Cuban consul's telephone

was tapped?

Mr. Shaw.

If the consulate line was tapped --

Mr. Goldsmith. It would have been his?

Mr. Shaw.

Probably it would have been his, but they may

have had a direct line in there. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. How would a telephone tap actually work?

I am talking now about the actual mechanics of the tap.

Mr. Shaw.

I do not know. I never had anything do do

with them. I know they used to take some of their taps at

what. they call the junction boxes. These would be the boxes

out in the street where lines came in to be fed into this

central -- I would rather suspect that the joint operations

were mostly done at the central, since the Mexican government

simply could have issued orders, you will tap such and such a

phone.

Mr. Goldsmith. My question is oriented towards the

following. Once a tap has been placed on a line, would that

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mean that all calls, ingoing or outgoing, on that phone would

be picked up, so long as the tap is in effect?

Mr. Shaw. So long as it is in effect, yes. Whether those

would appear in the transcripts is another matter. If it

was like a wrong number, or somebody saying pick up three rolls

and bring them home for lunch, probably it would not appear on

the transcript.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make that decision?

Mr. Shaw:

Whoever transcribed the tapes.

Mr. Goldsmith. How much time would pass from the moment

that a call came in until the transcription passed across your

desk?

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Mr. Shaw. I cannot answer your question with any preci-

sion. There was a system in the Embassy whereby if you had

fast-breaking situation, or something like that, you could --

I sure would like to get the transcripts of such and such a

line fast, and that information would be processed and funneled

back in to the Embassy or into the station on a priority

basis.

I would quess, offhand, that it ran -- again, this is a

guess -- five, six, seven days.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about the high priority cases?

Mr. Shaw.

Sometimes you can get that pretty fast.

Mr. Goldsmith. Within a day?

Mr. Shaw. Yes. We could have somebody looking for a

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certain call, and I do not recall ever doing that. But it

was my understanding that if you expected some situation, that

you could levy a requirement -- for example, let me give you

a for instance here.

Let us suppose that we, the station, someone in the sta-

tion was going to make a recruitment pitch to a Soviet officer.

It would have been possible for the station to have organized

things so that there was a live body and not just a machine

hanging over phone calls coming in to the Soviet Embassy in

case the guy called up and said, let me tell you the discus-

sion I just had, or something like that.

This would be a little far-fetched, because a Soviet

would not be likely to handle it by phone. But in a case

where you are looking for something fast-breaking to protect

yourself, being on top of the situation -- it would not apply

much to Mexico, but if you had a revolutionary situation

breaking out someplace, surely there is a possibility of

getting information very quickly off any given line.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would the transcripts be reviewed by

you in chronological order?

Mr. Shaw. I got them in batches and I would review them

just in the oider in which they came. I might have shuffled

them in chronological order, yes. Quite often they came in

four or five or six pages stapled together.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would they tend to come in chrolological

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order so you read a transcript from the 15th before the 16th?

2

Mr. Shaw. Generally yes, right.

3

Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to the transcripts after

they were reviewed by you?

5

- ó

Mr. Shaw. They were usually routed. They had a routing

sheet on it, and they would go on to somewhere else.

Where

they went, I do not know. Sometimes we would mark them for

files. Of course, if there were a transcript in there that

9

11

i had specific information on somebody that we were interested

in, we would mark a copy for the files and it would go into

that person's -- either their P-file, which was their personnel

12

file, or into any operational self-file that would we make,

| building up background information on a person, the little

i things like whether an officer's wife was unhappy with the maid

15

or with living conditions or the cost or what. have you of the

drugstore. These little bits and pieces were built up and

17

those came from transcripts.

ia

Mr. Goldsmith. Would these transcripts eventually get

19 sent to headquarters?

29

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I will say that it was unlikely!

21

that Winn Scott ever threw anything away. It was somewhere,

23

probably, in the file room.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about the tapes? What would happen

24

with the tapes after a conversation had been transcribed?

23

Mr. Shaw. Again, you are getting into an area where I

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never had any personal experience. It is my understanding

2

that tapes were erased and reused, and they were used over

3

and over again. Otherwise, we would have ended up with a room

4

full of tapes and there really was no reason to keep them.

5

Now, I would also assume that if there was something

important on a tape that they might have held it. I do not

7

know. I do not recall ever saying, hold that tape for me.

===-

The transcript usually sufficed as the record.

9

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if, at the time of the assassina-

tion, that the station had a tape recording of Lee Harvey

11

Oswald's voice?

12

Mr. Shaw. No, I do not know if they did. I think they

13

did not. It was my understanding that what they had was a

14

transcript of some quy calling, again, it is my understanding.

15

I believe he called the Soviet Embassy from the Cuban Embassy,

15

or the Cubans called the Soviet Embassy, I am not sure. But

17

as far as having the tape with Oswald's voice on it, I seriously

i8

doubt it.

19

(Discussion off the record.)

20

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you now what was

21

marked here as CIA No. 197 and, for purposes of the record

and for your information, the Agency has provided us with its

23

documents. Each page has been assigned a number. The reason

24

it has been assigned a number is so that the Agency can make

23

sure that everything given to the Committee is returned. For

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reference purposes, we simply use those numbers for a witness

when we are going through this pile of materials.

Now I would like you to take a look at CIA No. 197, the

second paragraph.

(Pause)

Mr.. Shaw. Okay.

:

Mr. Goldsmith. The second paragraph indicates that the

===

station is unable to compare the voices, as the first tape was

erased prior to the receipt of the second call.

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that at least

one tape was still in existence on November 23rd, the date

¡that this cable was sent? Otherwise, the second paragraph would

have said the tapes had been erased, routinely, whatever.

Mr. Shaw.

It could indicate that. It does not definitely

state that. That is an interpretation, certainly.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does that refresh your memory as to whether

or not there was a taping system?

Mr. Shaw. I do not have anything in writing. This did

not refresh my memory at all. This probably would have been

considered. Was this

after the assassination?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. Shaw.

No, I do not think it necessarily indicates,

but. I am surppised that it does not say that they were both

destroyed, or both erased.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Please take a look at CIA 208.

Mr. Shaw•

208.

Mr. Goldsmith. And read paragraph number four. Read it

to yourself, please.

(Pause)

Mr. Shaw.

Yes.

Mr.. Goldsmith. According to paragraph number four, it

i indicates that it seems a voice comparison of some kind was

i made.

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Mr. Shaw.

Yes, or it could well be that this guy, Fine-

glass --

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Tarasoff?

MI. Shaw. Remembered the poor Russian of the first tape

and the poor Russian of the second tape and figured that it

was the same quy.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long were tapes normally retained

prior to being erased?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. It would seem to me if you had!

a very productive tape, you probably would not keep it very

"long, once you transcribed it.

(Pause)

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you to read the CS comment on

CIA 239.

Mr. Shaw. I have read it.

Mr. Goldsmith. According to that, it indicates that the

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normal time lag would be two weeks.

In other words, the tapes

would normally be retained for a two-week period.

Mr. Shaw. That is what it seems to say, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is that consistent with your memory now,

at the time?

Mr. Shaw. No, I do not have any idea. I was not invölved

in tape pick-ups or tape erasures.

Mr. Goldsmith. The Oswald telephone calls, as we will see

later on, came in within approximately four days of each other,

if, las CIA 239 indicates, the tapes were normally retained for

two weeks prior to being routinely erased. Does that suggest

to you that the Oswald tape was, for some reason, treated in

an unusual manner, because either the first call came in, let's

say September 27th. By the time the second call came in, the

first tape had already been erased..

Mr, Shaw.: No, it does not suggest that to me. - what is this nu

ber here: - because thismessage came out 9 December 63. What it

suggests to me is that, subsequent to the assassination, is

that the station was to hold tapes for a minimum of two weeks.

Mr. Goldsmith. Please read into the record what 239 says.

Mr. Shaw. CS comment:..station to erase routine tapes,

Soviet. Embassy, keeping normal two week lag.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that the normal

lag would not be two weeks?

Mr. Shaw. This was not addressed. to me.

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Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.

Mr. Shaw. There is no reason for me to read this anymore

than there is reason for you to read that. The words stand

by themselves.

Mr. Goldsmith. That is right, and you have just given an

interpretation of those words, suggesting that that the mean-

ing is prospective in intent. In other words, after December

9,

1963, the timelag for retention of tapes prior to erasure

would be two weeks.

Mr. Shaw. I think it could read that, yes. I do not know

what went on between Winn and the station as far as periods

for keeping these, but I think what you are trying to do is lead

me into a situation of pointing out that. the station was remiss

in destroying tapes, and I do not believe that is the case.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to indicate to you, and also

for the record, that what I am trying to do here is go over

¡questions that are raised by the documents and the Committee

has no predisposition, one way or the other, to reach any

particular

conclusions.

The truth is that unless these questions are asked of

you, both the Agency and the Committee will be criticized by

people in the future who review these documents and say, why

iwere not. these questions asked of you.

Mr. Shaw. I can understand why you are asking the ques-

¡tions. I am simply not in a position to tell you, from memory

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or anything else what the normal station procedure was regard-

ing retention of tapes, although, as I did indicate earlier,

that the tapes were routinely erásed and used over again. As

far as the time lag, you know as much about it, and probably

more than I do, by now.

Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibility, if any, did you have

with regard to the photo-surveillance operation against the

Cuban Embassy and consulate?

Mr. Shaw. I had no responsibility for that operation

until after. Iyreassumed the Cuban Ops section which would have

been the day Phillips left for Mexico, probably a year or

two down the road. I do know, however, that the operation --

there was a Cuban photo, or a photo operation against the

Cuban Embassy •

I do not remember why, but I think that observation was

not active in the period when Oswald was in Mexico. If I

remember correctly, the man, to the best of my knowledge who

handled that, who was actually the inside case officer, if

you will, was the little guy who was snapping the pictures,

was a fellow by the name of Robert Zambarnadi, and I believe

he is retired and living in Mexico. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the station case officer responsible

for running the photo-surveillance operation against: the

Cubans?

Mr. Shaw.

As far as. I know, it was Robert. Zambarnardi,

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who was the technical officer of the station. He was a

technically qualified man.

Mr. Goldsmith. There was no one overseeing him?

Mr. Shaw. I do not believe so, but maybe Dave was. I

do not know.

We used to get batches of pictures. One of the

things that' I would do with the agent that I mentioned earlier

was that I handled was take batches of these pictures to him

and sit down with him and say, did you ever see this quy, or

who was that?' And he'alsay, that's a courier, or that's the

new officer

who just arrived, or I do not know who this quy

was, but he came in and talked to so and so, that sort of

thing.

We used to try to identify people with those pictures.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many. photo bases were there taking

pictures of the Cuban consulate and Embassy?

Mr. Shaw. To the best of my knowledge, there was only

¡one photo base. At times, the consulate was not covered and

the Embassy was. If I may draw you a picture, this would be

the block, the compound block. The Cuban Embassy was the

big building up here, and there was a little gatehouse down

here. I do not remember whether it was in or out.

This was the consulate, on the corner. People who would

want to get visas would routinely appear here and they would

send them down the street and they would

go into the consulate.

Sometimes they knew where they were going and they came in here,

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or they asked a cab, take me to the Cuban consulate, they

would probably be delivered here.

This is a block, a city block. The house from which the

photographs were taken is over here on this corner. The

photographs were taken long distance down here and here. This

was not always covered. This was considered more important,

because it was routine - either there was a lot of routine

visa stuff here.

Later on, subsequent -- gosh, it must have been a year

later. I do not remember just when -- we developed a system,

or somebody up here in the states who developed a system

whereby the camera would be triggered automatically. That is

movement -- sort of like a photo-electric cell or something.--

movement up here in the picture that the camera was to cover

would cause a series of photos to be taken, maybe four or

five, zap, zap, zap, something like that.

But I believe that, at the time. Oswald was in Mexico City,

not only was this down for some reason and not functioning,

but I believe, had it been functioning, that it would have

been individual picture snapping. I do not think that autos

matic equipment was in Mexico at that time. I could be

wrong.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not going to be able to introduce

this diagram into the record, so I am just going to describe

it as best as I can.

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You indicated that on one block, on: one corner of that

block was a consulate building for the Cubans. The other side

lof the block was the Embassy building.

Across the street was the photo base.

Mr. Shaw. This was all wall. This was a compound.

Excuse me, if I may interject. There was another building back

here that had a theatre downstairs and had offices upstairs.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was that within the compound also?

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Three buildings within the Cuban compound?

Mr. Shaw. Yes.

: Mr. Goldsmith. The photo base was located across the

"streets It was closer to the consulate than it was to the

entrance of the Embassy?

Mr. Shaw. That is correct.

Mr. Goldsmith. From the diagram that you drew, it would

seem that the location of the camera was. closer to the consulate

than it was to the Embassy entrance, yet you also indicated

that most of the people of interest would have been entering

the Embassy, not the consulate?

That is correct

Mr. Shaw.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was not the placement of that camera in

an inappropriate position?

Mr. Shaw. I imagine that camera was placed wherever we

could get it. Getting real straight across from one, of those

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embassies was very difficult.

I

know, had we had our druthers, we would have placed

that camera closer up here and the Soviet Embassy had a similar

sort of situation, a camera over here and one down here. I

believe thei:closer the better, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many photo bases were there operating

against the Soviet compound, without drawing a diagram?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know, but I think there must have

been two or three.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you sure you were not the case officer

overseeing the surveillance operation against the Cubans?

Mr. Shaw. I certainly am.

Mr. Goldsmith. So Mr. Zambernardi was not working under

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Mr. Shaw. I did not consider him working under me, at

that time. Later on, when he was replaced and I am not sure

whether Dave Phillips was there or not, I did move into this

operation. I am trying to think of the cryptonym for the

operation.

I cannot. recall.

And the chap who then handled it was Zambernardi's

replacement, I think his name was Humphrey. That was the

surname.

Lou Humphrey, I think. I am not sure.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was the purpose of the photo-surveil-

lance operation?

Mr. Shaw. Primarily to identify people in touch with the

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foreign embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would everyone's picture be taken?

Mr. Shaw.

No, no way.

Mr. Goldsmith. Whose picture would be taken?

Mr. Shaw. For example, that you would normally in an

operation like this be limited by time available for the

photographer. You would be limited by daylight. You would

not photograph a milkman, or a mailman or somebody who would

be

there repeatedly. You would not photograph a staffer of

the Embassy if once you knew who he was, unless he was walking

with somebody.

You would not photograph a regular visitor to the Embassy,

if

you knew who he was.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you photograph all foreigners?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would have to say the answer

is no. I never photographed any of them. Do you nean would

all foreigners be photographed? I would say, given the

limitations that I have enumerated, namely how long a person

can sit there and watch, and they have to take a break now

and then, daylight, Sundays. they probably did not photograph

because there is little activity.. I am sure there were consider-

able down periods in this sort of operation.

No, I would say all foreigners were not photographed.

Ideally, you would like to have a picture of anybody who went

lin and out of there, surely.

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Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.

My question is, while surveillance base was in operation,

¡would a primary purpose of it be to take pictures of foreigners?

Mr. Shaw.::". Yes. That would have been a primary

purpose. Not necessarily foreigners, but people you do not

recognize. Foreigners or Mexicans; Mexicans are foreigners

to

us, of course.

Another thing they did, by the way, was they tried to

photograph the license plates of automobiles that came to these

embassies.

Mr. Goldsmith. During what hours were these photo bases

in operation?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would say most likely during

business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the

photographer was available to do the job.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read back that answer?

The Reporter:

"Question: "During what hours were these

photo bases in operation?"

Answer: "I do not know. I would say most likely during

business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the

photographer was available to do the job."

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, when would

¡photographers have been available to do the job?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know.

I was not involved in these

operations: I used to see quite a bit of coverage.

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Mr. Goldsmith. What were your primary responsibilities

"when you were down there? You were not involved in the photo-

surveillance operation; you were not involved -- excuse me

for interrupting you.

Mr. Shaw. Go ahead.

Mr. Goldsmith. You were not involved in the photo-

surveillance operation and you were not involved in the wire

tap operation, so, my question is, what was your primary

responsibility?

Mr. Shaw. My primary responsibility was to try to

effect penetrations of the Cuban government. I spent a good

bit of time with Cubans of the non-Castro persuasion, attempt-

ing to identify Cubans of the. Castro persuasion that we might

90

after.

By "go after," I mean attempt to recruit.

I spent a lot of time collecting information from the

Cuban asset on the outside to process into the intelligence

reports on what was happening in Cuba.

We had a system set up in Mexico City under an agent

called AMSAIE who was

the representative of the exile commun-

ity.

He would arrange to meet, hebp, debrief, Cubans who were

arriving constantly from Cuba on the way to the United States

or to Mexico or to somewhere else in the world, people who.

were exiting Cuba.

Mexico did not break relations with Cuba as did the other

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countries of the Hemisphere. The OAS recommended that;

Mexico did not do it.

So, when the refugee flow dried up in Florida, we probably

hađ

one of the most productive operations there in Mexico

City regarding information on what was going on in Cuba.

I spent a lot of time with AMSAIL on that.

•Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever try to recruit Eusbio Ascue?

Mr. Shaw. His name is Eusbio Ascue.

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. Shaw. A-s-c-u-e. Fist name, E-u-s-b-i-o.

I did not try to recruit Ascue. That may have been

attempted prior to my arrival, in which the man who would know

about it, if it had been attempted, would be MI.

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Mr. Goldsmith. What about. Teresa Proenza?

Mr. Shaw.

No, I never made any attempt to recruit

i Teresa

Proenza?

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if anyone ever did?

Mr. Shaw. I know we had an officer in Washington who

had formerly served in Mexico City who was very interested

in

Teresa Proenza. That officer's name. was

Mr. Goldsmith. Is he still with the Agency?

Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he is.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about Guillermo Ruiz?

Mr. Shaw.

That does not even ring a bell. Ruiz is a

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very common Spanish name. Do you want to tell me who he is

or if you häve anything on him? Maybe

it might ring a'bell.

Mr. Goldsmith. Apparently, Mr. Ruiz was a Cuban intelli-

gence officer at the Embassy, Cuban Embassy:

Mr.. Shaw. I do not recall him there when I was there.

Mr. Goldsmith. What did you say that Mr.

--

responsibilities were, if you said?

Mr. Shaw. I did not say. I used his name -- he was

another officer, like I was, in Cuban operations.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether he had anything to

do with the photo operation.

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. He may have; I do not know.

I do not think he did.

He may have.

Mr. Goldsmith. After your arrival in Mexico City, did

anyone attempt to recruit Ascue?

Mr. Shaw. As far as I know, there was no attempt made

to recruit Ascue after my arrival. My memory could be playing

tricks on me. I know I never went after him.

(A brief recess was taken.)

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to

get into the number of

people who were in Cuban Operations in October of '63, September,

October of '63. Could you tell me again how many?

Mr. Shaw. If you could show me a list of the people at

the American Embassy at that time, I think I could pretty well

quickly, in the station - if you have such a list, I probably

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could very quickly identify those that had some connection

with Cuban Ops.

Mr. Goldsmith. The Agency has not given us that list

today to have for this purpose.

Mr. Shaw. Do you have one lying around?

Mr. Goldsmith. No.

So far, according to my recollection of appearances,

we have Mr. Phillips, yourself and I

Mr. Shaw.. When I arrived there,

Tould have

been there. He would have been goneby that time.:

John Zambernardi would have been involved in the technical

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Mr. Goldsmith. How many case officers were there? in

¡Cuban operations?

Mr. Shaw. Probably just three, three or four, I am not

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sure.

Mr. Goldsmith. There were three case officers, probably

four?

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Mr. Shaw. At. least three, yes. Dave and Ray and myself.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was thereaffourth?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I cannot recall, offhand, who

else was there.

Wait a minute.

what. was it called?

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was there, as a researcher --

Research analyst.

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Mr. Goldsmith. I am interested now only in case officers

I do have a list. here, referred to-as CIAr 169-70, which

has a list of Agency employees. Would you please examine that

list?

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(Pause)

Mr. Shaw. Okay.

Perhaps there would have been myself,

Dave

I Phillips and™

Mr. Goldsmith.

Was

a case officer?

Mr. Shaw.

was not considered - yes, I guess

she was a case officer. I do not know what cases she handled.

She did more of what we call INTEL analyst work. She had

officer rank, I believe. I believe she was a GS-9 or -11 or

something. I do not remember.

But Pegay,, the girl I mentioned awhile ago, was not there

until 1965. That was about it.

The ranking would have been David Phillips, myself,

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MI. Goldsmith. How did you divide up your responsibilities?

Mr. Shaw. Let me interject.. Jack Stewart was there, but

he was not in Mexico City.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine.

How did you four divide up your responsibilities?

Mr. Shaw. We were given certain agents to handle and we

handled those agents, and Dave Phillips would decide what

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other activities he would pass around. I notice --

Mr. Goldsmith. Which were those other activitiés?

Mr. Shaw. Anything that might come to light that Dave

would -- an ad hoc requirement;, or something like that, he

might ask any of us to help out, or somebody else might ask

us to do something. I went out and helped surveil a meeting

one time for one of these guys down here. It had nothing to

do with Cuban Ops.

Mr. Goldsmith. What procedures did the four of you

establish for reviewing photographs?

Mr. Shaw. The only procedure that was established was

route the photographs and show them to any agent, personnel,

who might be in a position to identify the persons in the

photographs.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of you identify all the photographs

in the Cuban Operation Branch?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a system to this?

Mr. Shaw. If there was, I did not set it up. When I got

photographs, I would show them to LITAMIL-9 and have him teil

me who they were and I would write a contact report and submit

it to my Chief, who was Dave Phillips.

I would assume that

probably did the same

thing with his agents.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, unless there was a system for

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reviewing the photographs, you had no way of knowing that

all of the photographs were being reviewed by you and other

Cuban Operations case officers?

Mr. Shaw. I had no way of knowing. I was seeing all the

photographs, that is true. I assumed I did.

- Mr. Goldsmith. You had no way of knowing that?

Mr. Shaw. Not unless I would have gone to pick them up

from the man who took them and developed them, which I did not

do.

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Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the transcripts, did you

have any procedure for insuring that alloof the transcripts

were being reviewed?

Mr. Shaw. Did I have a procedure? No. The station

routed the transcripts to the various officers. Winn Scott

quite often routed them. I notice you had a transcript some-

where here --

Mr. Goldsmith. We will look at the transcripts later on.

Mr. Shaw. Winn Scott quite often routed those to a

specific officer.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were all of the transcripts pertaining to

Cuban operations that were sent to the station reviewed by at

least one of the Cuban operations case officers?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Scott a very demanding man?

Mr. Shaw.

What do you mean by "demanding"?

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Mr. Goldsmith. Did he expect his employees to work hard

and to perform thorough, competent work?

Mr.

Shaw. I assume he did. He never said so in so many

words.

It was my understanding that until he was remarried he

worked long hours in the Embassy, before I got there..

Sometimes

he had people in there at 9:00 o'clock at night.

Mr. Goldsmith. Compared to other station chiefs that

you had worked under, was he more demanding or less?

Mr. Shaw.

I would not say he was any more. He expected

work out of his people and got it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that the Mexico City

station had one of the biggest telephone surveillance opera-

tions in existence?

Mr. Shaw. Certainly in Latin America.

Mr. Goldsmith. Any CIA station?

Mr. Shaw. I don't know about any CIA station. Certainly

in Latin America.. It ate up a lot of man hours.

Mr. Goldsmith. In light of the fact that Mr. Scott

apparently was a demanding man and that you had one of the

largest surveillance operations in effect in Latin America,

your testimony today is that you do not know whether the Cuban

operations case officers reviewed all of the transcripts?

Mr. Shaw. I do not think that the prefacing was necessary.

The latter part of that, in which you asked me if I am aware

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that all of the transcripts of the Cuban Ops were examined

by the Cuban Ops section, I would have to, again, say I do

not know.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Goldsmith. We just went off the record for a moment

because Mr. Shaw had a question about where his car was parked

and whether there would be any problem about that, and I

indicated that I did not think there would be a problem.

Mr. Shaw, do you recall who delivered the photographs

to the station, the tape from the surveillance openation?

Mr. Shaw. It was my understanding that the technician

picked them up.

Bob Zambernardi would have picked them up

from the agent.

You are talking of the Cuban Embassy now?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, and consulate.

Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he would have

picked them up from the agent who took the photographs. The

agent who took the photographs developed them, printed them,

and turned the prints over to Mr. Zambernardi. That is the way

I think it worked.

Mr. Goldsmith. How would you actually

get to review the

photographs?

Who would bring them to you?

Mr. Shaw. Usually I do not remember who brought them to

me. I have the impression it. may have been

but

I could be wrong: Maybe Bob brought them to me.

I do not know.

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Mr: Goldsmith. Who had reporting responsibility for

passing along the information that had been obtained from the

photographs and the transcripts?

Mr. Shaw. There was little reporting that came out of

the photographs. Usually, it yielded what we called operational

information rather than intelligence information, to enable us

to develop a better understanding of who was in the area, of

who was in the Cuban Embassy, and what they were up to.

As far as reporting intelligence that came from those,

it probably was reported by the reports section of the Embassy!

Next to Winn Scott's office was the CA Chief's office and,

next to that -- I'm getting in the new embassy now. I don

not remember where the report section was in the old embassy.

We had reports officers who actually repaired most of the

reports from raw reports, if you will, reported by the case

officers.

Again, I would like to point out that these photographs

yielded very little reportable intelligence. It was mostly

operational intelligence.

Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.

Who was George Monroe?

was a former agent, Special Agent?

Mr. Shaw.

of the Federal Bureau of Investigation who retired or resigned,

I do not know how he left the Bureau, and worked in Mexico

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City on the outside, as a non-official cover asset for Winn

Scott. Ann Goodpasture, I believe, had a lot of contact with

I very seldom saw

I had nothing!

to do with him operationally.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what his responsibilities

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were?

Mr. Shaw. I believe his responsibilities had to do with

dealings with the Mexican government, liaison responsibilities.

I think George was used by Winn because George had good contacts

in the Ministry of Interior, which would have been

sort of the

equivalent of the Department of Justice here and out of that

Ministry came, for example, the man who became President of

Mexico. He was the station asset, contact, not agent.

Mr. Goldsmith. You mentioned

earlier, Mr.

is that correct?

Mr. Shaw.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know. whyl

had an inter-

===

est in Eusbio Ascue?

Mr. Shaw. No, I do not believe it was. I think it was

Teresa Proenza. I do not think he had any interest in Ascue.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who had the

interest in Ascue?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I said if it had been before

my arrival, I would suspect it was

He was carrying

the ball down there and was responsible for that sort of

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activity. I do not know that he did, but if it happened in,

say, late

'62 or somewhere in there, it probably would have

been Tom who would have done that.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was

position at the

Embassy?

Mr. Shaw. He was not at the Embassy then. He was at

the Embassy back in 1965.. I do not know, for a number of years.

At that time, Charlie had gone back to Headquarters and he

was involved in Cuban operations from Headquarters, the details

of which were notmmade known to me. Whether they were made

known to Winn Scott or Dave Phillips or others, I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. When would he have made an effort, if

he did, to recruit Teresa Proenza?

Mr. Shaw. I am not sure that he ever tried to recruit.

I am merely saying that he had a lot of interest. •I do not

think anybody ever tried to recruit her. If they did, they

were wasting their time.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why were they wasting their time?

Mr. Shaw. She was a pretty tough nut. I never saw --

if

I canwremember -- I do not remember any vulnerability of

Teresa Proenza.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was the nature of Mr.

interest in her?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Some Cuban operational interest,

maybe trying to get some information from her through a third

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party. I have no idea.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did he spend time in Mexico City that

he would have had an opportunity?.

Mr. Shaw. He visited Mexico City quite often.

Mx. Goldsmith. Even though he was not stationed down

there, he visited often?

Mr. Shaw.

That is correct. He madé trips in and out of

Mexico City•

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Teresa Proenza's position

was at the Cuban Embassy or Consulate?

MI. Shaw. I think by that time she was out of the Embassy,

¡was she not? I do not remember. She left.

Teresa Proenza was a Mexican. She was not a Cuban. And

I am under the impression that by the time I got there,

Teresa had left the Embassy.

I may be wrong. I think that

she was involved in cultural activities.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Mexican intelligence

would have had any penetration agents at the Cuban Embassy or

consulate?

Mr. Shaw. I think they would have tried. I do not know

how effective Mexican intelligence was. I did not deal with

it.

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Cubans were gradually removing Mexicans from their employee,

from the Cuban Embassy. I think it highly unlikely that the

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Mexican government, given its position, was the only government

in the Western Hemisphere which maintained relations with

Cuba, would have been - it would have been highly unlikely for

them to have tried to pitch a Cuban national.

On the other hand, I think it would have been likely,

and would have been expected of them, to have tried to find

out from any Mexican working in the Cuban Embassy what was going

on.

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What this comes down to, of course, is

gardeners and

secretaries.

Mr. Golasmith. Why do you make that distinction between

a Cuban national and a Mexican? •

Mr. Shaw. I make that distinction because of the flap

!

potential If the Mexicans had attempted to pitch a Cuban and

the Cuban had not accepted that pitch and had reported it

to his superiors, the Mexican Foreign Office then would have

had a problem with the Cuban Foreign Ministry.

Mr. Goldsmith. Of course, the Mexican government was

also taking a risk by being involved in the liaison operation

or the Agency as well.

Mr. Shaw. One could assume that they had measured their

risk, yes, certainly. There is an element of risk in every

operation. Do not get me wrong. I do not know whether they

had anything going or not. I would assume, just based on my

experience, that they would not have tried to pitch Cubans,

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that they would have tried to exert subtle coercion on

Mexicans working there to report in the interest of Mexican

national security on what is going on in that Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have been in a position to know

if the Mexican government successfully penetrated the Cuban

Embassy or consulate?

Mr. Shaw.

The chief of chiefs of the Mexican service or services.

Mr. Goldsmith. Any American?

Mr. Shaw. Not that I know of.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether there was any coordina-

tion between the telephone tap operations and the photo

operations.,. For example, if a conversation of interest came

up on the tap operation, would the people monitoring the call

i be able to contact through an intermediary the photo bases

to warn them or indicate to them that someone is coming of

interest?

Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that such a system did

not exist, and I do not believe that the quys monitoring the

telephone tap intercept bases were made aware of photograph

coverage.

However, I would assume that a man running a technical

operation, if he heard something exciting on the line, as

opposed to a tape several days later, would notify his case

officer right away and then it might be possible for the case

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officer, assuming a quick reaction capability, to crank up

the people at the photo house to take pictures. This was in

the most perfect of all worlds. Usually things did not work

that way and you end up out on the street, in the middle of

the night two days later, contacting whoever it is taking

photographs.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the Mexico City

station ever obtained a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Shaw. To my understanding, they did not. I never

saw anything down there that looked like Lee Harvey Oswala.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever hear an allegation that

Charlotte Bustos, at CIA Headquarters in Washington, found a

photograph of Oswald, or someöne she thought to be Oswald,

in the Headquarters files shortly after the assassination?

Mr. Shaw. No, I have never heard such a story. Knowing

Charlotte -- not knowing her well, but having known her over

the years, I would assume that had she found such a thing

she would have rung a big loud bell and say, hey, look what

I found.

Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the photo operation, let

us assume, for a moment that you come across a picture of

interest. Did you have any way of determining on what day and

approximately what time the picture would have been taken?

Mr. Shaw. Very definitely.

Mr. Goldsmith. How would you have done that?

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Mr. Shaw. The photographs were squared off and were

annotated. We knew the day. We knew, usually, morning or

afternoon, a.m. or p.m.

Sometimes you could judge by the

sequence.

Furthermore, sometimes the actual time of the person going

in and going out was actually annotated, if the person operating

was operating manually, he would no doubt, the quy with the

red-checkered Hawaiian shirt went in at 10:05. He would note

that in a little log.

I do not know whether he would note it on the photograph

or submit the log with the number keyed to the log in the

photograph. Quite often we knew to the minute when a person

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Mr. Goldsmith. I see.

So, to your knowledge, there were photo-production loạs

that could be checked?

Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, such logs did exist, yes.

Whether the logs were kept after the information was noted on

the. photograph, on the back of the photograph or wherever it

was noted, I have no idea.

The photographs, quite often came in the form of 35 mm.

contact strip prints and then blow-ups of a number of those.

I recall 4- I had not thought about it all these years,

but usually you knew when a quy, you certainly knew when he went

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Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make the notations on the back of

the photograph or contact print as to the time?

Mr. Shaw. In our case, I believe it was the man taking

the photographs because he took the photographs, developed

the photographs, printed them and turned them over.

Mr. Goldsmith. If he were to put the time on, he would

have to go to his log and see what the time was and then make

the entry?

Mr. Shaw. Right. He probably made a little notation to

himself like I mentioned, the bright shirt or something. Then

he would recognize that person in the photograph and make that

notation.

(Pause)

Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that the name

Lee Harvey Oswald came to your attention?

Mr. Shaw. It would have been the evening of the day of

the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did that; happen?

Mr. Shaw. We listened. We had a radio. I think it was

one of those Zenith Trans-Oceanics in one of the Embassy

offices.

I was out at an agent meeting when I heard about the

assassination and I came back to the Embassy and went upstairs

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and we sat and stood around that radio and I believe it was

in Pat Johnson's office -- her name was something else in

those days.

I can't remember her married name.

And they said something about the police said it was Lee

Harvey Oswald, or something. I do not remember. That was the

first time that it came to my attention.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you now to take a look at .

CIA No. 13 which is a transcript of the conversation allegedly

involving Oswald, a conversation taking place on 1 October '63.

Would you please read through that?

(Pause)

When was the first time that you saw that transcript, if

you have ever seen it before?

MI. Shaw. I do not know whether I have ever seen it or

not, but I may well have. I was aware that he had called the

Soviet Embassy, was made aware after the notoriety of the man

was established, but I do not recall ever seeing this before

that.

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Normally, I would not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Prior to the assassination, did you see

it?

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Mr. Shaw. No. If I did, I did not pay any attention.

I do not believe that it was on a Cuban line.

Mr. Goldsmith. No, it was not.

Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can tell who saw these things by

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the initials up top.

Mr. Goldsmith.

There are notwritings or notations on that

one, however.

Would you please readil CIA 177, which is a cable from

Mexico City station dated October 8th?

(Pause)

Mr. Shaw.

Yes, this is typical where they try to identify

somebody that was in the Embassy at the same time. Of course,

that does not sound like it.

Mr. Goldsmith. This was the famous cable that has given

rise to some of the issues that the Committee was concerned

with.

My first question is, did you have anything to do with

the writing of this cable?

Mr. Shaw. No, I did not. I would not have had.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how the photograph referred

to in paragraph number two of that cable was in some way linked

to Oswald?

Mr. Shaw.. I would assume, my answer to your question is

no. I would assume that this was an effort on the patt of

the person drafting the cable to help Headquarters identify.

Lee Oswald, the man who had made the call.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how she made that conclusion

that the photograph reflected Oswald?

Mr. Shaw. No. I do not think she did. I think she

merely says that we got a quy who looks like he might be an

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American going in, and maybe this is the fellow. I do not

see from this cable any conclusion that that is Oswald. I

rather suspect they never got a picture of Oswald. This is

the one that appeared there, that looked like it could be

an American. Therefore, an effort was made to help Headquarters

by saying a man who looked like he might be an American

entered the Soviet Embassy at that time.

Mr. Goldsmith. I agree with you, Mr. Shaw. Certainly,

the cable does not say that the photograph is a photograph of

il Oswald. At the same time, though, it gives the information

in

paragraph 1 on Oswald and the second paragraph makes.

+ -

reference to a photograph taken of someone who appears to be

North American.

Certainly they woüld not have sent to Headquarters simply

a cable indicating the existence of a photograph, so by putting

the photograph in paragraph 2 immediately below the information

on Oswald, although the cable

does not say that the photograph

jis one of Oswald, it does in some way suggest that they are

related.

Mr. Shaw. It suggests to me that they know an American

who claimed to be Lee Oswald called at a certain time, and

then they went to the photographs to see if they could find

anybody who looked like he might be an American, and the

photo they

found was of a man apparently 35, athletic build,

about 6 feet tall, receding hair line and so forth; and they

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submitted this on the off-chance that this might have beeni the

man who made the call.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand your answer. I am hopeful

that you understand that I am not suggesting that the cable

definitely says the photograph is one of Oswald.

Mr. Shaw. No, I do not see that it does at all.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please take a look, now, at

CIA 183?

(Pause)

Mr. Shaw. All right, I have read it.

Mr. Goldsmith. This is a cable, lis it not, from CIA

Headquarters back to the Mexico City station responding to the

earlier cable from the station reporting Oswald's contact?

Mr. Shaw. That is what it looks like to me.

Mr. Goldsmith. The fifth paragraph of that cable requests

that the station keep Headquarters advised of any further

contacts or positive identification of Oswald?

Mr. Shaw.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the station ever sent

any additional information to Headquarters concerning Oswald?

Mr. Shaw. No, I do not, and I do not recall ever seeing

this cable, either.

Mr. Goldsmith. Today is possibly the first time that you

have seen that cable?

Mr. Shaw. It could well be, yes. You may have one with

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my initials on it, but I doubt it.

• Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA 183, there is an arrow

pointed to the word "Henry", "Lee Henry Oswald." Adjacent to

the arrow it says "sic," s-i-c.

What do you think Mr. Scott was intending to indicate

when he wrote "sic" next to the "Henry" in "Lee Henry Oswald"?

Mr. Shaw. I would rather suspect that he wrote this on

I here subsequent to the

assassination when the word came out it was

"Harvey Oswald" rather than

• "Henry Oswald" unless there is

something in here that says "Harvey." Is there any?

Mr. Goldsmith. No, there is none.

Mr. Shaw. I would imagine that is something he wrote

on later so that they would get the file in the right name.

That would be my quess.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you now take a look at CIA No. 14.

You may also want to take a look at CIANo. 15 at the same

time.

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(Pause)

Would you identify the document that you just reviewed?

Mr. Shaw. What it. looks like is a normal LIENVOY trans-

cription. I see my name up here, but I don't see anything

that indicates that I ever saw it. It looks like Scott and

Goodpasture made checks ön it. There is my name, but there

is no indication, no initial on my: part. Probably I did not

see it.

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Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript?

Mr. Shaw.

28 September 1963 is what is listed on here.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall whether you ever saw that

transcript before?

Mr. Shaw. I do not recall. I must have seen it after-

wards, because I know Sylvia Duran was a person who had dealt

with Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that this trans-

cript was linked to Oswald?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us backstep for a moment.. The

transcript that appears at CIA No. 13 contains a notation in

brackets by the transcriber that this is the same person who

called a day or so ago.

Mr. Shaw.

To the Soviet Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Oswald also said I was there last Saturday. The trans-

cript you just looked at, September 28th, was for a Saturday.

Do you recall whether anyone ever came to you and asked

you whether you were aware of a contact by Oswald?

MI. Shaw. I do not recall that anybody ever came to me,

and I do not think that they did. This sounds familiar. I

would have heard about this after the assassination, because

I remember Sylvia Duran was the person being a Mexican citizen

inside the Cuban Embassy who I dealt with.

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Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, the point I was making

on the October lst transcript, it refers back to something

that happened a day or two earlier, possibly Saturday, and

I wondered if Herb Minnell, when they were discussing this,

came to you to discuss

this matter?

Mr. Shaw. I do not believe they did. Barbara probably

would have processed this, but I do not recall that anybody

ever came to me about it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine.

Would you please now take a look

at CIA Nos. 16, 17, 18,:19 and 20?

(Pause)

Mr. Shaw. Here you have one that I saw.

Those are my

initials -- No. 19. I did not see this one.

Let me see what we have got here.

(Pause)

I have read it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, you have read through CIA

document No. 22.

Mr. Shaw. Yes, I have not read them carefully, but I

have looked them over.

Mr. Goldsmith. Taking a look at CIA No. 16, could you

identify that document?

Mr. Shaw. This is a LIENVOY transcript:

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it a summary or a verbatim transcript?

Mr. Shaw. It is a summary.

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Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript?

Mr. Shaw. According to the thing in the margin, 27

September '63, 1963. This is really the same darned thing

here.

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Mr. Goldsmith. The same as the transcript that appears

on CIA No. .17?

Mr. Shaw. It appears to be:

Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately what time was this phone

call received?

Mr. Shaw. It looks like something put on by pen, "Five

minutes after 4:00 in the afternoon." MF means a woman --

is that MF?

Mr. Goldsmith. Do not worry about that.

When was the first time you sawithis transcript?

Mr. Shaw. I do not remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you see it before the assassination?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.

Mr. Goldsmith. Youriname appears in the right-hand

corner.

Mr. Shaw. My name appears there. However, it is not

crossed out. If you turn over a couple of pages, you will see

my initials on another thing which deals with the same period.

Mr. Goldsmith. I will do that in a minute.

Do you know whether this transcript was linked to Oswald

prior to the assassination?

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Mr. Shaw. I do not know whether it was or not. I

gather it was not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that?

Mr. Shaw. It does not say. There is no mark on it,

Oswald on here anywhere.

Mr. Goldsmith. What are these numbers on the bottom

right-hand 7-

Mr. Shaw. That is the file number.

Mr. Goldsmith.

What file would that be?

MI. Shaw. That says subject file. 50-8-10-6. I do not

know off-hand what that is. I think the 50 stands for

Mexico. 8-10-6 would be a subject file.

Probablyy possibly someplace where they put i information

on people where they are trying. to travel to the Soviet Union.

I do not know; that is a guess.:

Mr. Goldsmith. Let's take a look at CIA No. 19.

Mr. Shaw.

Okay. CIA No. 19, 27 September, that looks

like my initial. It is very similar.

Mr. Goldsmith. In the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. Shaw. I cannot imagine anyone else putting it there.

Mr. Goldsmith. This is the conversation that took place

"later in the day, is that correct?

Mr. Shaw. 27 September 63, right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that this conversation

took place sometime around 4:26 in the afternoon, according to

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the documents?

Mr. Shaw. There is an indication there.

Mr. Goldsmith! When did this document first come to your

attention?

Mr. Shaw. I havenno idea, because there is no date up

there. I do not know when it was circulated or anything.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know when it was first linked to

Oswald?

Mr. Shaw. I do not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Dial

Jever come to

you to discuss this transcript or conversation with you in

reference to the transcript. dated October Ist?

Mr. Shaw. Not that I remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. At the bottom of CIA No. 19, it says

copy Oswald P-file. Essentially, do you know when that nota-

tion was put on?

Mr. Shaw.

I do not know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning back to CIA-177, there is a

notation on the left-hand side of the page. It says, D:200-5-41.

Do you know what that would refer to?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea what the D stands for. The

200-5-41 sounds like a file number.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know for what?

Mr. Shaw. No, I do not, but I would assume, again, that

maybe that would be -- if it is in the 50 series, it would be

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a Mexico City file. But it may be a Headquarters -- is this

a Mexico City document, or a Headquarters document?

Mr. Goldsmith. This is a Headquarters document.

Mr. Shaw. That is a Headquarters file number. I have no

idea what the D stands for. It does not look right.

Mr. Goldsmith. I have asked this question before, but

for the record and purposes of clarification, I would like to

ask you again, to your knowledge, after the Mexico City sta-

tion received the cable from Headquarters dated October 10th

of 1lth, did the Mexico City Station ever send any additional

information concerning Oswald to Headquarters?

Mr. Shaw.

To my knowledge, they did not, but I would

have no way of knowing.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever speak to

about

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Mr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. L

Mr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Dave Phillips?

Mr. Shaw. No. *

Mr. Goldsmith.

What, if anything, do you know about the

arrest of Sylvia Duran shortly after the assassination?

Mr. Shaw. I remember that Sylvia Duran was arrested.

I do not know why. I could have suggested that myself, but I

do not remember.

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I do remember sending a message to Winn Scott suggesting

that, right after the assassination, that the Mexicans put in

a ring of quards around the Cuban Embassy and question everybody

going in and out. I remember that idea coming out of my

head.

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Inknow that Sylvia Duran was arrested.. She was fair game

because she was a Mexican national and the Cubans -- she did

not have any Cuban diplomatic immunity.

I would have thought it would have been a good idea to

question here very closely. As to whether I said that she

should be arrested or I had anything to do with that, I do

not know.

I was perfectly capable of making such a suggestion.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters was upset

about that arrest?

Mr. Shaw. I have no idea":

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters did not want

any Americans to confront

her or to interview her?

Mr. Shaw.

NO.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that

Oswald may have been an agent of the KGB?

MI. Shaw. I have no reason to believe it.

Mr. Goldsmith. How about an agent, asset or source of

the CIA?

Mr. Shaw. I would think that that would be completely

out of the question.

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Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of the record, could you

explain why you think that would be out of the question?

Mr. Shaw. Because I thihk it would have come to light

immediately had he had any CIA connections.

Mr. Goldsmith. In what manner?

Mr. Shaw:

Somebody would have revealed this fact.

Mr. Goldsmith. Had he been an agent of the CIA, asset

OI

employee, is it possible that someone would have been able to

cover that fact up?

Mr. Shaw. I do not think anyone could have covered up.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why not?

Mr. Shaw. Had he been an agent, then it would have been

on the record somewhere.

Mr. Goidsmith. Is it possible that the record could have

been erased or purged in some way?

Mr. Shaw.

I seriously doubt it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give a reason?

MI. Shaw. Just my belief in the integrity of the organiza-

tion. It stands on that, and the people in it.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Does the Agency, to your knowledge, have

any safeguards to prevent records from being erased or purged?

Mr. Shaw. Nowadays, of course, we have laws which say

Iyou can't destroy material. I would say that the safeguards

lagain come back to the basic integrity of the people in the

organization. When you lose a President, you do not mess

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around, and I think everybody would have turned over every

possible stone to find out anything they could that would be

useful in determining the responsibility for that assassina-

tion.

I know I would have. I was a Kennedy man, and I imagine

there were a lot of us in the outfit who identified very

closely with the President.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever know anybody by the name of

Maurice Bishop?

Mr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether David Phillips, or

anyone else, ever used the name Maurice Bishop as an operational

alias of some kind?

MI.. Shaw. I am not aware

that they did, but I would

have to answer your question no. Dave Phillips does not seem

like a Maurice type, somehow.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did Headquarters ever criticize the

Mexico City station in any way for its handling of the Oswald

matter prior to the assassination?

Mr. Shaw. Not

that I am aware of.

Mr. Goldsmith. For that matter, after the assassination?

Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. I must add that

criticism would have been conveyed to the Chief of Station

rather than to the case officers.

Mr. Goldsmith. When Oswald returned to the United states

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from the Soviet Union, would it have been standard operating

procedure for the Agency to have interviewed him or debriefed

him in some way?

Mr. Shaw. No. I think that it would have been more

likely for the FBI to interview him.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Why is that?

Mr. Shaw.

Because he was an American citizen in the

United States. That was the FBI's territory.

Mr. Goldsmith. Even though Oswald worked for several

years - not for several years, but for sometime -- in a

radio factory while he was in Russia?

Mr. Shaw.. I was not aware that he worked in a radio

factory, but the fact that he had been in the Soviet Union,

the fact that he had been in the United States Marine Corps,

would indicate to me that if he had been interviewed, he

would have been interviewed by the FBI.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does not the Agency have a Domestic

Contacts Division, or service, which customarily interviews

people who have been abroad in Communist countries?

Mr. Shaw. The Agency has the

Domestic Contacts Division.

It used to be called O/O Contacts. I never worked with those

people.

It is my understanding that what they do is routinely

debrief, if the person is willing, businessmen -- in the old

days, tourists -- who had visited the Soviet Union, or to

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debrief a man who might have other involvement in the Soviets

would not, I believe, have fallen within the purview of the

0/0 Contacts Branch.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any knowledge of the opera-

tional activity of the CI/SIG Branch of the CIA?

Mr. Shaw. No. I do not know what SIG means. I have

never heard of CI/SIG.

CI is Counterintelligence staff. I don't know what SIG

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Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I would like to thank you for

your testimony today. I especially would like to thank you

for spending all of this time with us. I know that you have

been here since approximately 3:00 o'clock or so and it is

now about 7:30. You have been very patient.

Customarily, whenever a witness testifies before the

Committee, the witness is

given an opportunity to make a

statement for the record. This is not a hearing, but I would

like to give you the same opportunity, if you would like to

take advantage of it.

MI. Shaw. Well, I might take advantage of it. I had not

thought about it until you mentioned it, but harkening back

to what I said a little while ago, I do believe that our

organization was made up of, like Bill Colby has on the cover

of his book over there on the next table, of honorable men,

and I do not think that anyone in the organization would have

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allowed any cover-up or any destruction of evidence which might

shed some light on the assassination of President Kennedy.

I might add a little vignette. We had what it called a

Libra: Pecima which is a book that the people signed when

they come to a funeral or something. You may have run into

something like this in the states, when you go in and sign

in at the funeral parlor that you were there or something.

You express your regrets --: pecima, in Spanish, means regrets,

or sorrow.

We had a book down in the lobby of the Embassy building

and when I came out one day shortly after the assassination

somebody in the crowd yelled Spanish for Bob, and I went over

and:, it., = was the Governor of the State of Sonora, which is

a big state up in northwestern Mexico. I had known him some

years earlier. He was the son of the General who was the

outstanding military leader of the Mexican Revolution from

about 1913 to about 1920.

His father had been President of Mexico.. His father was

assassinated, having been elected to a second term. He was

already elected; he had not taken office.

I was profoundly touched by the presence of this son of

an assassinated President in the lobby of our Embassy to, in

turn, express his sorrow to us for the assassination of our

President.

That does not prove

anything one way or another, but it

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made a tremendous effect on me.

As

I mentioned very early in our session today, I am not

aware that there was any exultation, satisfaction, or happi-

ness inside the Cuban Embassy over the assassination of the

President. And I think, and my personal belief is, that

everything points to Lee Harvey Oswald having done it, and

done it alone.

There is nothing I have ever seen or heard which would

lead me to accept, for one moment, any complicity on the part

of my Agency or any other agency of the United States

government.

Mr. Golasmith. Thank you, Mr. Shaw.

I would like to add that as soon as the transcript of

this deposition is available, we will be in touch with you

so that you can have an opportunity to review it for accuracy

and again, I would like to thank you for your time and help

today•

Mr. Shaw. I thank you, gentlemen.

(Thereupon, at 7330 p.m. the

• Executive Session recessed.)

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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

I, Rosemary C. Tascione, the officer before whom the

foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the

witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition

was duly sworn by the Notary; that the testimony of said wit-

ness was

taken by myself, stenomask reporter, and thereafter

reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am neither

counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties

to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further,

that I am not. a relative of employee of any attorney or

counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially

or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.

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Rosemay C. Jasousse

REPORTER

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