UNTITLED AND UNSIGNED DRAFT MEMORANDUM: IT WAS THE INTENTION OF THE UNDERSIGNED TO ATTEND EVERY SESSION CONDUCTED BY THE DOCTOR
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
From: NONE
To: WITHHELD
Document date: 05/24/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

546401

Date: 02/13/01

Page: 1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

eleased under

the

John

F.

kennedy Assassination Records

Collection Aet of 1992 144 USC

2107 Notel.

Case#:NU 53216

ate: 06-14-2017

AGENCY : CIA

RECORD NUMBER

: 104-10534-10198

RECORD

SERIES

: JFK

AGENCY FILE

NUMBER

.: NOSENKO RECORDS

DOCUMENT

INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR

FROM

TO

TITLE

CIA

DATE :

PAGES

SUBJECTS

DOCUMENT TYPE

CLASSIFICATION

RESTRICTIONS

CURRENT STATUS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS

:

UNTITLED AND UNSIGNED DRAFT MEMORANDUM: IT WAS THE

INTENTION OF

THE UNDERSIGNED TO ATTEND EVERY SESSION

CONDUCTED BY THE DOCTOR

05/24/65

16

NOSENKO

NBR

PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SECRET

_POSTPONED IN FULL

02/09/01

JFK-M-24:F55 2001.02.09.14:35:16:470084: NOT BELIEVED

RELEVANT

(NBR)

-------------------

[R]

ITEM IS RESTRICTED

HH 53216

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Nar 1965

l. It vas tho :ntenti a of the undersigned to attend every sessiun conducted

by the dictor in hope to gain sonething new and useful for our future

interrogations. During these sessions, I managed only to refrash my

menory of things NOSENKO had proviously aald. lothing now or significant

developed during these sessions except for a fow minor facts which have no

great value. It should be centioned that many of the facts that NCSENKO

stated about his past life were noro mixed up than the story he had

proviously related.

2. It

Is not the intent of th a paper to criticize the work which tha

roctor hus done because the sessiuns have alreadly taken place ana

the work is conulated. My main objoction to this type of interrogation

1s that the doctor tried to mintain a noutral attitudo and nover

my opinion that

challanged any of NOSENKO's statements. It is/ the doctor made a mistako

in the lust session when he told NiSENKO "Y ou are NOSENKO." Thia leads

NOSENKO to balieve we accepted his life story and family backgrouna, and

it would bo vory hard to question him agahn on this subject. It is uy

opinin that we did not have enough infornation to make a definite

c.nclusin that he is NOSENKO. What NOSENKO told us could bo obtained

or Learned by another person very well briggon these netiers. los of

the infornation that lOSENKO gave to us about his parents is stillnst

convincing to make corclusiong. Most of the questing during the recent

sessions were of a leading nature and NuSENiO's answerug appared to

bo of the type that the doctor wanted.

SECRET

Cicadied by 011 6223

Exempt from general

declarication sat cite of 5Q, 11652

axasicion schoduie iB 11IC (24 (3)

Autositizatly declosallied on

Date Inpossible to Determine

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## In sy opinion, NOSENKO did not say nore about his father, and in many

instanco loss, than the newspaper Pravda said in 1956.

3. In the doctor's opinion, NOSENKO sentioned to us quito a fow family

frionds who were around the NOSENKO family and at the first look 1t 1g

c nvincing that he ig NiSENKO. In uy opinion, NOSEKO gave to us

associated

only hases who logically would be auscratad with NOSENKO or NOSENKO's

rovealing

lather, and nothing aaazzliny about their activatios or privato lives.

Significantly, most of the information NOSENKO has given us is about

people who are rotar sither dead

or ne longer in authority. For examplo,

MALYSHEY, (fortor doputy chairnan of the Council of Ministers, d1od);

VAKHRUSIEY, (died); SABURCH, (ne longer a VIP); KABULOV

BULGANIN, ( no longot

(VIP)) KUZNEISOV, #O., (shot); SCiERBAKOY,

(died);

axia

others,

40 Ho

mentioned a fow nates who are ViPs now, but did not say anything

nterest. ng about them. For examplo, ho sentioned SHVERNIK who liveson

with KOSYGIN • He knaw nuch nore about KOSYGIN from PENKOVSKIY •

alroady

Lately he nentioned Marshal ZHUKOV's ca ghter who he knew we/have

a good picture of Rina

¿HUKOVA ¡rom one of our employees as wall as a good

description of ZHUKOV'g apartient.

5.

The only cinclusion ve can cone to from the foregoing is that NOSNEKO

has been alloved to say liitle or nothing about the lives of important

Soviet officialsa, or this nan is not NOSElIKO and ail he knows is the

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is the legend which has been provided him or or answers which ho could: figure

out hirself.

6. Withr regard to his rother, he did not sention anything of importanco to

us. He did not mention any of his rother's friends anung Soviet VIPB, and

tried to avoid or obange the subject when this matter was kanught up.

7a I am not convincos that NOSENKO lived on Serimovicha and Granavelly

Streets because he gave so littlo information about these areas that

It is Impossi: lo to judgo 1f he actually lived there. Although ha

gave correct inforcation about a fow VIPs who lived in housesin that*

area, other details are lacking which would confirm his residence there.

8. NOSENKO's latost infornation on his educational background 18 so

nixed up and be nade so Iany mistakes regarding Saviot realities that it

is impossible to believe titor any part of his aducation.

9. I don't believe any part of NOSEliKO's story about his mil tary sorvico,

"The laval Preparatory School in Beku and Loningrad:" According to Saviot

regulation; a persen was usually called in the army when he is 19 (those

calied be culled at ago 18:

who have graduated fron high school or otherwise have a higher education/)

NSENKO joIx was born on thax 30 October 1927, then he would be 18 years

old on 30 October 1945. llo could be cal od into the arry at this tine, 10o.,

the fall of 1945, although he should have been 18 by September of that year.

Ordinarily, he loula be callod to service in 1946. In ly opinion, everything

NOSENKO said abput his nilitary background in any kind of service scheal

prior to tho fall of 1945 1s a lio. NOSENKO, then did not attend the Higher

Naval Schools in Leningrad and Baku because he was too young to attend these.

JLOILI

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schoals sind the schools only accepted studonts who were ready fer regular

for accoptance in those schools was

military servico, and the lowest ago/santsode 18 years. Then we still have

unansweree quastions on where, when, and how licstilo finished high

schcol. NOSENKOls story that he took sure courses in l'oscow Evening High

Gorayy

Sch: ol Attached to Sacoly Institute and his atteniance at the Loningrad

Shipbutle ng Technicum, I consider as a complete lie, because it doas

not

logical

f'it any/patern of Seviet reality.

10. It is ny belief that NOSENKO probably never was in

astual nilitary

tho

servico and dofinitely did not tajd/ulitary oath the way ho desertbed 1t,

1.0., that he bistan took the

path at the age of 15 or 16 f4 Baku.

Itlis not

conduct

nocessary to mate any &

beds rossarca

since an individual liad to

be 18 and on active duty in

the service in order to bo eligibes to take

the military oath. If we bolieve that NiSENKO was aanitiod to the!

Leningrad Higher Military Preparatory School in 1944 with 9 grados of

; however,

education

6 be

would not

be udni:ted to the school because of his age and

because he could not take

The oath until October 1945.

11. Diring the last interrogation, there was sore confusion on NOSENKO's

part about his militaty ranks. And now we have three different stories' about

his ranks. Jr. Lto - June 1947

It.

spring of 1951

Sr. Lt -

end of 53 or oar to so haa stated that he was promoted to

It. In 7980jast interview, he siated that he was proseted to Sr lt in April

or May 1953.

SEUNET

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Capt - July 1956

Major — Aug/ Sept 1959

He not statos that he never was a major.

Lt Cal-Not 1963

He said his

prenotion had to be approvad by the Central Connittee because of his

jouth. These stories about his military raaks shauld not be taken

should be

seriously and/considered as a complete 1i0.

SOLE POINI'S FROM THE DOCTOR'S INTERVIEW

1. NOSENRCIAX stated (7 Miy 1965) that hs took the cath in Baku

In 1943 when he was 15 years old, but ho did not rorember how he enrolled

in the B aru school. In the sare reoting, he stated that while he was in

the Baku school he was konandir otdelentya • Also in the same interview he

stated that ho was in the loskovskly Flotskly Elipash. It should be said that

the Moskovskly Fiotskly Ekipazh was only for naval personnel who were called

in the regular naval service. All of this should be considoredas a lio.

2. On 10 May 1965, NGSENKO stated that sorewhere he was arrested

when he was l6 years old and was nox put under hose arrest. If this nizart

Incident really took place, 1t 1s nor a likoly that papa helped him to

got out of the arrest of it is possible to think that after this arrest

for some crime unknown to us he was put in jail and then in a corcentration or

Labor camo. This is why NCSENSO tells us a story that in 1944, in the fall,

ha was working for two or three sonths in the forest, where he got sick

and cunditions were very bad. As NCSENKO described it, the enditio s

were nore joix like a labor camp than a regular idlitary unit.

SECHET

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3a Accord. og to NOSENKO's latest story, ho voluntarily wont to

the naval proparatory school of Frunze in 1944 but he didn't start any

studies until November or Decembor 1944, because the wholo school was

24407÷

working in the forest.. Then in February of Varch 1945, the shooting

accident took place and he spent some tibe in the hospital and in May

ho onrolled in a shipbuilding tochicur. NOSENKO tried to mako us

bolievo that whilo ba was in the naval preparatory school he studied

Loth grade subjoats, but as we can see, in actual fact, he did not stuay

anything because he had no time. Intors he stated that sian he enrolled

and

In the shipbuilding technicun in May , the next sonth ho graduated

and rocolved his cortificate as 1f he graduated fron a bigh school,

and got the right to go to a higher institution. only a crazy person

could believe this story.

Lo During all tho interrogations, we never got a clear picturo

internal

how he received his first/passport in Leningrad and how he received his

first silitary ticket. If he really wus denoblized and put in the reservo

1t should take place somewhero later than October 1945 when he became

18 years old. Dofinitoly there will be no talk about any military ticket

beforo you reach 18 years old. And nore likoly at that time he should have

been 19 years dad to have been called into the service or posted to the

reservo. It bhould be noted here if NOSKEIlO really was in the naval

preparatory schoal in 1944 and 1915 and recoired his military ticket in

1945 then he definitely should be two years older than he claims.

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...^...<

• .

SEGRET

On 5 May, NOSENKO naked wore friends. He nonticned again SABUROV®s

sons. Uno of then killed his vilo (Valya lefrinoval, the daughter of

dejuty minister YEPRIVOV). Ho killed her because he found her in bed with

another ran. De uty Minister V. V. YEIRIMOV was deputy to NuSENKO's father.

I o was at his funeral and delivered a spech in Red Square during the

funeral coresony. It was notigublo that thaolixadusexha when lie questioned

Al 8e

him about friends ho always senti nod SABUROY, OSENSC only ventioned

YEFR.NOV by name and did not give a y details. If N SENKO 1s the person 13

this person ho is suppased to lo, he would known much more about tho

life and background of the deputy to his father. And here ag ain we have

an example of a person isocosoentieied who is no longer a VIP.

6. On 6 May NOSBNKO told us stories about the oldest san of SABUROV who per

married the daughter of the forrer Minister of Railroads KOVALEV • It

should be noted here that the full story of KOVALEV wis published in my

book The Secrot World, KOVALEV was punished and lost his ViP status in

1950.

7.. On 21 May, In answering the doctor's questions# about his first work in

the KGB , NOSENKO told us a story hit ho received an order to writo a statement

lo arrest a Soviet citizen who was connected with foreigners. (XXXsaX The

Soviet citizen wrote a lotter to the American Enbassy) According to NOSERKO

he rejected this type of work althuugh there was BERlYA's resolution for

felt

arrest (Russian word is raznotat!). Further, NCSENKO extricia that the

man was not guilty. The point of this story was to prove that he was working

in the SCD.

8. On 20 May NOSENKO ones again randinned that the barking hours of the

KCB were from 10:30 in the morning until I o'clock in the corning, with a

SECRET

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break between 5 and 8 in the evening. As I already said befcro loscow Houdquarters

until later July or August 1953 working hours wore fron ll AM to 12 PM

with a roak frous to & in the evening. Il oblast KGB, 1nc uding Moscow

city, working hours vero fron 10:30 in the vorning to 1 o'clock in tho

sorning Sorenhore at the endles i jay and the beginning of August 2952,

working hours were changed and were from 9 All to 6 PM with a lunch busdox!

break of 1/2 to 1 hour taken between

the hours of 1 PM to 3 PH# for

all the offices of the KGB Incluain, heaaquarters and the oblast'.

Thea st sa possiblo to think uhat paybco sonenhero in Xiancov oblesti,

loningrad, or sene other city;

NO/ENKO used to work as a cage officer

or was closely con octed with th

oblast? KGB. That is where he learned the

working hours. That is why bo race:

the mistake if rogaraing the working

hours in headguarters

9. When the doct

bey is writing in the surmary of NCSENKO's psychological

assessment,

Fe called him a bright sociopath. Maybo he is, but in my opanion

he ip

(a very well trained agent with great ingenulty and barigoaan proparation.

ab: lutely disagrree with the doctor's statement thath "He has been essentially

c nvincing and accurate in general if not always truthful in dotell." In

ono point it do poasiblo to agree with tho doctor that NOSe does not

prosent to us the complote legend. In my optalon,, Nostalo developod

his own story or legend hirself in response to leading questions

, especially

about his early life and schooling up to 1953. Andfrom 1952-1953 and on,

to his defection, we should believe that it was a legera develo ed for

NOSENKO by he KGB, of course, with his help.

SEGKE

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"SUGESTIONS

1. It is suggested that I participate in the next hostile, needling

Interrogativa. It would be helpful for ne to have a disguse during the

next interrogation, although he will probably kniwa who I an regardless

of the any disguise I use. His also suggested that I Interrogate him .

alone in theinterrogation room, although I prefer that sanene be present

in the room . But if I am alonelt will givo me greaior authority In

NISENSO's eyes, and this nay be a psychological factor werking to ny

benefit. B ut If NOSENKO 1s takon to another placo, then it is possible to

interrogate him uncor KBSR flag to represent mysolf as a member of XESR

who

ta asked CiA authorities tax for a long time to talk to NiSENKC. In the

evont of ty participation in the interrogation to avid mistakes and

misunderstandings, the interrogation should be held in Russian. It is not

possiblo to nako the interrogation as hostilo as it might bo and to needle

him if the interrogatin is held in English, as NOSKEKO does not understand

strong words in English as well as he does in Rursinn. During the interrogation

I will not speak fast in order to rake it understandablo. It is understood

that I am going to be correct; but not polito. I would iry to avold getting

into uny arguzents with NOSENKO. In case of arguments, I would ask him to be seated

and to answer the questions. In the event he recognizos and tels me who I

am, It 1s possible to give two answers: 1. I am not he but he is coning soon

to talk to you, and you are mistaken. 2. Yes, I aM D and you are going to

give se proof that you are N. You have to givo no proof that you did work

for the KCB.

SECRET

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In caso of sy participation, I would lika to bo able to use all the information

tha t NUSENKO has previously told us. In utilizing this inforration, I would

like to have a free hand to press him on certain points which I feel would

be of value to usa in gaining a confession from hin. I need pormission to

use the names of Bagley, Big Georgo, and Murphy, of courso, only in the

proper way and when it is necessary. The use of the changes in the

Soviet governmont could be discussed having in mind thauso those events

is at the proper tiro when it 1s apparent that 1t will help hin to cinfess

(the use of only the fall of KHRUSHCHEV without revealing the rise of

SHELE IN and SEMICHASINII.) It could ba used in vari us ways, for example,

a newspajor on the tridex table with inly the headline showing. He could be

allaved to seo the paper inadvertantly and we could seo what his reaction

19. Or, the Inforcation could be brought out at a point in the interrogation

when we are srying to sttees that he must confess since we know he is

tolling lies, and furtheriore, his bosses are no longer in authority in the

S.viot Union and all is lost for him anyhow.

2. During the interrogatin stress should constantly be given to the fact

that NOSENKO 1s be ng used as a tool of the KGB without proper training

of American realitios, and that his missi: n was doned fron the start because

of this.

3. Il it is deciced tu give hin sone drugs, fitshould be given prior to trio hos-

tilo interrogatlun, so that we can use any 88 the nformation gadned from

the use of these drugs arainst hin. The first matter which should bo stax

determined if arugs are used is whether he is NOSENKO or not.

SESRET

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4o I would not hestitate to continuethe intorrogations to the point where

perhaps

NOSENKO would bo extremely tired und papades less able to resist hostilo.

enough

questioning. If thero is uet ratugueta personnel for extended periods of

interrogation, then he chould be left In the intetrogation room during

breaks in the interrogailon

VULNERABLE

38XXXXXXB8XHXE AREAS IO BS EX LCITED DURING THE NEXT HOSTICE INTERROGATION

I. Everything about NOSENKO's education start:ng fren Leningrad elonentary

the

the

school, note to Mascow, Moscow schooling, should be examined. And special

attention shpula be devoted to the schoola ho attended in September 1941,

Kubyshov, alku, Moscow, Leningrad, and back to Moscow agail. During the

interrogatdon of this period, lie should challenge NOSENKO by the facts

that he could not be at any military school prior to tho fall of 1945. Then

so do not bolievo his story. This in errogation should include detalled

questening about his travel to Kubyshov, Baku, to find out where he 112!

really was at that period. At the same tino, NOSENKO should be questioned

abou t where his parents lived fron October 1941 tara 1942. Also he should

be questicned about his first passport which he is supposed to receivo not

earlier than too Novenbor 1943 and not lat I than the beginning of 1944-

The same can bo said about his military tickot, 1.9., liken and how ho

received his first military tickot, through what military comissariat,

because he could not roceive his uilitary tickot earlior than November 1945.

His story that he received his military ticket in the sumer of 1945 1s falso.

What redical commission her was he exanined by before he got his cilitary

ticket should bo ascortained. It is impossible that NOSENKO was on activo

military service prior to 1945 Including any military schools because of his

B68ta: 3248h9412

have

been called to ictive duty in the fall of 1945 or core

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likoly in 1946. If he was postodin activo roserve in 1945 or 1946 then the

question is why he was not called into the ainy.

Tegother with this gies the question of N SENKO's education # in the

Institute of International Relations. The story he told us is

unbellovablo. First he siates that it was a four year course and that

he giaduated in 1949 and later on he changed hisstory and

baid that it was

a fivo year courso and that he graduated in 1950.

2. NOSENKO's first narriago io TELEGIN's daughter and divorce. On this

subject, NCSENKO should be quastioned about his registration of the

nar lago, assports, what district was the narriage registered in, about

apartments on the First leshchanskaya Street, Including his military

status at this tine, what kind of nilitary ticket he bad, when it way

registered. More dafinito questions should be asked about dhp divorco

announcement in the newspapors and full procedure of the divorce including

the two court sossions (district and oblast' courts). Alimony - the exact

amount of alimony, reninding to him

that carilier he told us that he said to

his first wifo 190,000 rublos form his money which ho earned serving in the

Far East. According to the latest NOSENKO staterents ho spent in the Far East

less. than 20 months. If this is the case, then lOSENKO 39323 received more

than 5,0:0 reubles a month. To make during the 20 souths the ICC, C0O

• rubles

Even if ICSENKO was in the Far East and geceived there a double salarty

as a jr. It.

the first year of service inthe GRU, he could not rake nore than

3,000 rubies a month (I gave here the highest possible salary for a funfor

officor)

Both if the subjects contioned above shoutd bo success invositgated

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along with the matter of where NiSENKO was living at that tine, raying

special a:tontion to Serifonicha, Granovskogo and First Meshchanskaya

Streats, keeping in mind that these subjecte will really show if he is

NOSENKO. If we do not got proper answeres on hhe first twe subjects,

If ho continues to lie or fivo unsatisfactory answers, then in my

opinion it is not necessary to question him about his study in the

foreig relations Institute. Il the answers are satisfactery or naro

realistic then we would move to the Institute of International Relations.

4. NOSENKO's Entry to tho KGB. Because we have 4 or 5 different dates

on his ontry into the KGB I think it would be a good idea to start goustioning

his froi: the point when he said that once prior to 1952 he bad*

"complete

interview vith the KGB zaparnatta representative about his employment

in the KCB, but he rejected their proposal because he did not like 1t.

From this point we would go on fron the beginning somewhere in 1952 when he

first talkod with KABULOV and so on. And he should be challenged all the tina

that KGB did not work he way he described to us. Then sorewhere during

the interrogation ho should be reminded or asked questions could a person

be in KGB service if he:Xi&

ay reconnend: to the KGB by a porson who was that to death as an enemy of

the jeople.

bo whose

(other's background is noble (avoryan), and whose graddiethor was

A Trotskiyite and who was arrested and died in jall.

c. whose filther of first wifo was arrosted and was in jail the day ha

entered tho

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do Who divorced his first wile not in the proper way and probably vas

guilty and question about towas his Inmorality was discussed in the

party cormission of the CPSU

& who entered the KGBX, when he was already overage menber of the

Komsonol without any desire to bocome ray a member of the Conmnist Party

fa whould a person with such background mentioned abovo be taken

to work in tho SCD American Department

Go who was lost his Komsonel nembership because of his nisuse of

operational documents and Imnorality.

ho who was arrested for 15 days for the reasons centiond abova.

1. who was withoug Konsonol and party membership for 2 years.

Jo who rejected the order of the Minister to write a staterent for.

arrest in the course of his work .

otc.

It 1s very hard now to develoy questions about his entry into the KGB but he

should be challenged all the time about his answers.

5. I did not vention about his being in the Far East and how he was

transferred from GRU to KGB. The line of questions on this matter would

depend or connected whith answeras to about his education and how he entered

the KGB. Questions about his to transfer from the GiU to the KGB

could be

put together when ve will question him about his entry into the KCB, his

personal file, and military ranks.

6. I would definitoly utilize and show to him iho number 7, what 13

' connected wih it, andjust ask him for an explanation.

7. NOSENKO's trip to Gorkly in search of CHEREPANOV. This question should

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stabted fron the point where he first heard of CHEREPANOVig defection from

Moscow, NOSENKO's irip to Gorliy and how long he studied the CHEREPANOV

papers. Here all the NOSENKO docurents should be at hand.

8 NOSENKO's operational and social activities on Red Square during the

holi-ays and father's funeral also adaa NOSENKO's presence at the fronlin

not as

should be clusely investigated because it is my belief ho|was often in

Red Square as ho chatred. If ho was there, it was only once or twice

and 1t would be aisy to mix him up about these matterg. Questions on

this subjeit could be developed according to his answers.

.9o I io: Ià like to take liCSEliKO on a trip fron Kurskly Station In Moscow

to his apartient on Narodnaya Strestalong Chkalovskaya Streat and

Taganica • Also on a trip along Dzorzhinskly StreetSretenka Street and

First leshchanskaya Street to his apartient building where ha lived with

his first wife. This is necossary to be sure that he real y lived in those

places. I still do not believe that he really lived at these addresses,

except for the fact that he may have lived nearby in safehouses.

10. Interrogation on operational questions such as his work with agents

and his use of safehouse, etc. could be held later. It depends how the

precions interrogation goes.

Note: I have no special suguestions how to exploit NOSENNO's inforcation,

it depends on the next stage of the interrogaiion, but I am against

ting taraing him back to the Soviets, whether he confesses of not.

We have have toyetorything in our pover to make him confess in order to

win this big game.

If we publish his story even with our changes without his confession

SECRET

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## Page 17

SECRET

genonstarte

we uill do on the losing side. There is no room to take hagali that.

defection is

the aot of an honorable notivated man without his

confession

SEORET

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