Agency: FBI
Originator: FBI
From: CG
To: HQ
Document date: 06/27/1967
Document type: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY: FBI

RECORD NUMBER: 124-10251-10249

RECORD_SERIES:

NO

AGENCY FILE NUMBER:

89-69-3252. 3253. 3254

AGENCY INFORMATION

Released under the John

'. Kennedy

Assassination Records

Collection Act of 1992

144 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 54462 Date:

10-04-2017

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR: FBI

FROM:

CG

TO: HO

TITLE:

DATE: 06/27/1967

PAGES: 13

SUBJECT: SEE FBI 62-109060-5483

DOCUMENT TYPE:

ORIGINAL

CLASSIFICATION:

PAPER. TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

Unclassified

REVIEW DATE:

STATUS

11/05/1998

Redact

NEW

CLASSIFICATION:

UPDATE DATE:

02/14/2001

RESTRICTIONS:

JFK Act 6 (4)

COMMENTS:

INC 2 CIT MEMOS, A/T

NH 54462 DocId:32190039 Page 1

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## Page 2

C

# 9816-67

June Zl,

1967

Ler Hawkins,

Attorney at Law

836-842 Fifth Avenue

Dés, Moines, Iowa

ARRANGEMENTS:

At your request, LILLIE MAE NC

MAINES was examined on the polygraph, a

detection of deception technique.

PROCEDURE:

Standard polygraph procedure was exercised throughout this examination.

RESULTS:

Subject was examined in this office on June 19, 1967.

She was given a Relevant

and Irrelevant type examination for the purpose of ascertaining if she possessed

any knowledge of an alleged meeting in Dave Ferrid's home wherein there was

verbal intercourse relating to a plot to assassinate the late John F. Kennedy.

During the pre-test interview, the Subject stated that she was born Lillie Mae

Soilett on Ostober 22, 1991, in Lucedale, Mississippi.. She stated that her real

mother died when her younger sister was born and that she was raised by one of

her father's cousins, James Moliett, and his wite Ethel. She referred to these

people as her parents. She stated that she was raised near Mobile, Alabama.

She said that she does not know whether or not James and Ethel Moffett ever

adopted her.

Subject stated that she

is presently married to Harold MeVaines, aged 38 years.

She said that he does not have a regular job and works out of an "employment

office" in Omaha, Nebraska, as a truck driver and as a'furniture mover.

The Subject stated that ever since she wes old enough to understand and remember,

her "mother" constantly told her that her older sister Gertrude, who lived in Naw/

Orleans, Louisiana, was

"a tramp and no good." She stated that these statemente

SEARCHED

SERIALIZED-

.....INDEXED.*

FILED,

JUN 2 9 196>V

89-69-3252

VEN OPENS

HH 54462

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Page 2

Mi. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae iicMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

finally caused her to run away from home in 1962 and proceed to New Orleans

to locate her sister Gertrude. She said that she just had to find out if her

sister was really "bad."

During six hours of interview and interrogation, the Subject gave the following

information regarding ber stay in New Orleans, her return to Mobile, Alabama,

then on to San Bernadino, California, then back to New Orleans, then to Omaha,

Nebraska, and finally to Des Moines, Iowa.

Subject stated that when she first went to New Orleans she decided to use the

name Sandra Notfett. She explained that she had been in New Orleans ior appro:-

imately three weeks beiore her sister permitted her to go out "on the town" by

herself.

She said that the first night she went out alone she met Perry Russo.

She said that the mecting occurred about 10:30 P.M. as she was walking down

Mourbon Street and that Perry Russo, "Ken, " Leity Peterson and "Timmy" were

also walking along Bourbon Street. She related that as they passed on the street,

Timmy winked at her and she smiled. She continued that they all stopped on the

sidewalk and talked. She said that during this conversation, Perry Russo volun-

eered to drive her home.

She continued that she, Perry Russo, Leity, Ken and Timmy all gut into Perry'3

car and proceeded to drive toward her sister's home where she was staying but

they stopped on the way for coffee and gasoline. She said that Perry Russo asked

her if she would go to school with him the following morning and she replied to him

that she would go with him provided her sister would permit her to do so.

(She continued that Perry Russo stopped by the house the following morning but her

sister would not perinit her to go with him but her sister did agree that she could

attend a party that was being given for Ken Winl: that night.

Subject stated that that party was held at a place called the Frenchman's Inn. She

said that Perry was supposed to pick her up at 8:00 P.M. but he was late because

it was raining hard. She said that ahe and Perry arrived at the party at appro: i-

mately 9:00 P.M.

The Subject stated that she and Perry continued to date until the early part of 1963.

She said that she became pregnant and aiter she told Periy that she was pregnant

" he told her to "get lost" until aiter the baby was born and then she should look him

"* up again.

HH 54462

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## Page 4

Page 3

Mi. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'¢):

The Subject stated that when she first told Persy Russo that she was pregnant,

a man (unknown to her) placed Perry in a hypnotic trance and questioned him.

She said that while in the trance, Perry acknowledged that he was the lather of

her yet unborn baby. She said that Percy later denied that he was the father.

She went on to explain that she, Perry, and the unknown "hypnotist" (she des-

(cribed his age as between 40 and 50 years) went to a place called the Royal

Castle and, while there, this unknown "hypnotist" again placed Perry in a

hypnotic trance. She said that he did not question Perry at this time but gave

Shim a post-hypnotic suggestion, "When I snap my lingers you will awaken, got

oft the stool, walk to the door and then return to the stool where you will freeze

in your tracks and will be unable to move." She said that when the man snapped

his fingers, Perry opened his eyes, got off the stool, walked to the coor and

then turned and walked back so the stool. She said that Perry stood by the stool

and went through what appeared to be atterpts at moving his body but he did not

actually move. She added that, in her opinion, Perry was faking his inability to

move while standing by the stoot..

Subject said that the next time she saw Perry (after telling hiro that she was

pregnant) was a very short tire later and she spent about one-hals hour talking

with him in his home. She said that when she departed his home, a friend of his

named "Fido" knocked her down on the lawn, hit her in the stomach with his fist,

and made the comment, "Why don't you leave him alone?" She explained that she

screamned loudly when struck by Fido hoping that Perry Would come outside but

Me did not. She said that Fido went into Perry's home aiter knocking her down

and striking her. She said that as soon as she regained her sense of direction,

she got up and went home.

The Subject stated that when she was about three months pregnant, she attempted

suicide by taking 175 aspirin. She said that a girl friend named Kathy found her

and took her to the Charity Hospital in New Orleans by taxicab. She said that her

stomach was pumped at the hospital and she said that the hospital notified the

police department but her girl iriend Kathy talked the oificer out of taking her to

jail.

NW 54462 DooId: 32190039 Page 4

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## Page 5

Page 4

Mr. Hawkins

June 21, 1907

RE: Illlie Mac McMaines

RESULT'S (cont'd):

Subject stated that when she was about four months pregnant, she married a

Frank: Adams in Dallas, Texas. She did not tell the circumstances surrounding

a divorce from Adams.

The Subject stated that when sho was between 15 and 16 years of age, her

"mother" took her to a psychiatrist because she had run away from home.

She

Laid that she visited the psychiatrist about four times but she did not know what

he reported about her.

Subject related that she gave birth prematurely on August 30, 1963. She said

that she was released from the hospital on September 3rd or 4th, 1963., She said

that she went to Perry Russo's house the day following hei release from the

Hospital but she did not see or talk with him again until June or July of 1964.

Subject then related how Perry Russo photographed her on several occasions

while she was engaging in the act of coitus with difierent men.

She explained

that Perry had his own dark room and developed the pictures himself.

Subject then related that she and a girl named Ann visited her baby in the hospital

frequently.

She further

stated that her "parents" came from Alabama to New

Orleans and also visited the baby in the hospital.

Subject continued that her baby was released from the hospital on September, 20,

1963, and on this same date she leit New Orleans with a James Robert Divin

(Russo had introduced her to him). She said that the two of them and the baby

went by bus to her "parents'" home. She gave her "parents" address as Dox 326

in Eight Mile, Alabama and she said that this town is located near irobile.

She went on to explain that James Robert Ervin was unable to find employment

in Mobile ánd so he went to New Orleans and obtained a job in an establishment

called Little Crystal Cafe. She said that this establishment is located on Royal

Street in New Orleans. She said that Jimmy worked and stayed in New Orleans

during the week and he would hitchhike to her "parents" home in Light Mile,

Alabama, over the weekends.

NH 54462 DooId: 32190039 Page 5

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## Page 6

Page 5

MI:

liawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mac Nichaines

RESULTS (cont'¿):

Subject stated that she and Jimmy leit Eight Mile in February of 1961 (leaving

the baby with her "mother"') and they went to San Bernadino, Caliiornia, where

they stayed with an aunt of hers.

She said that from the time she left New

Orleans to go to Eight Mile and then to California, she did not make one trip

to New Orleans.

Subject related that she and Jimmy went through a wedding ceremony in Tiajuana,

Mexico, in June of 196%. She continued that Jimmy left her the latter part of

ahis same month. She said that the day aiter immy left her, she went to ivew

arleans by bus.

Subject related that when she arrived in New Orleans, she called Perry Russo

and he came to the bus depot and drove her and her personal belongings to his

Plome. She said that she spent the night in Perry's apartnient and then the follow-

ung day she rented a room for herself.. She said that alter she rented the room,

she went job hunting and she met James Robert Ervin on the street. She said

that they decided to live together again.

She said that she did obtein a job as a

barmaid. She said that she and Jimmy lived together for only one week and he

Again walked out on her. She said that he left on July 3, 1904.

The Subject said that she then turned to prostitution as a means of supporting

herself and in order to save up enough money to get hes baby back from her

"mother." She further explained that she gave. Persy Russo "around a hundred

dollars! to keep for her but he never gave it back to her.. She said that on one

other occasion, she loaned Perry $20. 00 to use to pay his insurance but he did

not repay this money either.

The Subject stated that the first time she met Dave Ferrie was in either the latter

part of Innuary of the first part of February of 1965. She explained that she was

with Perry Russo and he wanted to see Dave Ferrie about something and se the

two of thom went to Dave's apartment. She said that Perry introduced her to

Ferrio and his two roommateg.

She said that they stayed at Dave's apartment

for only a few minutes and they lett.

HH 54462 DooId: 32190039 Page 6

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## Page 7

Page 6

MI. Hawkins

June 21, 1907

RE: Lillio Mae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

cron

The Subject said that the next time she saw Dave F'errie was less than a weel:

after first mecting him and was on a Sunday. She explained that Dave invited

her to his apartment for lunch with him and his two roommates. She said that

Dave picked her up at her place in a blue Ford station wagon and they arrived at

Dave's apartment at approximately 12:30 or 1:00 F.M. She said that she stayed

at this apartment until about 5:30 P.M. at which time he drove her

' back to her

Wlace.

Subject said that she next saw Dave ferrie on the following Wednesday or

Thursday when he came by Sam's place where she was employed. She said that

Dave asked ber if she would go out with hin; the

following Friday night.

Tubject said that on this Friday night, Dave picked her up at hor apartment

about 6:00 or 0:30 P.M. and they first proceeded to Dave's apartment where one

Is Daves roommates and his date were waiting. She said the four of them then

went to several places to dance and drink but they did not have dinner.

The Subject emphatically denied ever mecting Shaw or Oswald. She said that she

never attended a party at Dave Terrie's house. She stated that she had never been

to a football game but she did attend basketball and baseball gomes with Perry

Russo and Lefty Peterson.

The Subject stated that Perry Russo was extremely interested in polities. She

said that he was a Republican and a strong advocate and backer of Goldwater.

The Subject stated that she attended a political meeting with Perry Russo and

three other men but she could not be sure of their names. She related that the

meeting was held in a big house on Canal Street in either April or May of 1965.

She said that she and three on stayed in a back room of the house and watched

television. She said that she did not see all of the people at the meeting. She said

that she did not heat anyone speaking Spanich nor did she

see any Spanish, Cubans

or Puerto Ricans at this mecting.

The Subject commented that Lefty Peterson is "off upstairs" but is a good guy

otherwise.

HH 54462

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## Page 8

Page 7

Me. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mao McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

The Subject explained that Perry Russo habitually made notes about everything.

Sho said that he made notes of things he bad to do, the times he was supposed to

be somowhere, and places he had to go. She said that Perry told her he made

notes of everything because he was so busy that he did not want to forget anything.

The Subjeci explained that on one occacion she went to Perry's house and Mike

LEitegorald was there.

She said that Mike told her that he had just found Perry

in the bathroot with his wrists all slashed up and that he had tried to commit

suicide. She said that she then left and did not see Perry.

The Subject stated that when Perry first introduced her to Jimmy Ervin, he

suggested they all go to Jimmy's apartment and he would like to male photographs

of her and Jimmy engaging in coitus.. She said that a girl friond of hers named

Jeannie became very angry with Perry when he made this suggestion. She said

they dis not go.

The Subject stated that the most men sho ever engaged in serual intercourse with,

one linmediately following the other, would be two. She said that these were

two

men she hustled when she was working as a prostitute. She related that she

hustled one man one night and he went into the bathroom after undressing. She

said that she locked him in the bathroom, tool: $120. 00 from his pocket and ran

out of the room.

Sho stated that on one occasion Periy wanted to photograph her

and a girl named Kathy engaged in a son act together but she said that someone

came in unexpectedly and the act was never consummated.

The Subject related that two investigators from Districi Attorney Garrison's

office came to her home in the middle o: the night of March 8, 1967, in Omaha.

She said that they requested her to leave immediately with them and return to

New Orleans for the purpose of looking at some photographs. She said that they

told her that they did not know what the photographs were.

She continued toat she

told them that she could not leave then because she had a coat and other clothing

In the cleaners. She said that these two men, Simms and Jonah, told her not to

worry---they would buy her some new clothes. She said that they further told her

that she would stay in the finest hotels and eat the finest foods.

74 54462

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Page 8

Mi. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillic Mac McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

She continued that hos husband (Enrold McMaines) spoke up and stated that he

did not want to let her go and that he wanted to consult with an attorney. She

said that the two investigators then offered to buy a tichet for ber husband

also. She said that after her husband insisted on talking with an attorney first,

the two investigators told her husband not to consult with an attorney because

she might get hurt if he did and they wanted to keep everything quiet. She said

that they did leave however.

¡The Subject explained that she told this entire story to a repories named

Zimmerman with the World-Horald in Omaha. She said that after the story.

appeared in print she and her husband both lost their jobs. She went on to rclate

that the reporter Zimmerman told her that she needed an attorney and arranged

10s her to meet attorney Lex Hawkins.

The Subject was given four separate tests and was asked the following relovant

questions and gave the answers indicated:

First Test:

Q.

Do you have any intention oi trying to lie to me during this test? A. No.

Have you told me the complote truth since we have been talking? A. Yes.

Did you attend the party at Ferrie's home that Perry claims you attended?

A. No.

Did you ever meet Shaw? A. No.

Are you deliberately trying to withhold any information from me regarding

the party? A. No.

Second Test:

Q. Have you told me the complete truth here today? A. Yes.

Q. Did you attend the party Perry says you did? A. No.

Q. Are you trying to withhold any information from me regarding this case?

A. No.

HH 54462

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Page 9

Nir.

dawking

June 21, 1957

RE: Lillie Mae MoMaines

RESUL'IS (cont'a):

Third Test:

Did you llo to Mr. Hawkins at all? A. Yes.

Did Perry ever tell you that the President was going to be assassinated?

A. No.

Did you go to the party at Dave's house that Perry says you did? A. No.

Are you attempting to

protect or cover up for anyone? A. No.

Are you trying to hold back any information from me now? A. No.

"ourth Test:

2.

Nave you told mo the complete truth hore today? A. Yes.

Would you lie if it would help you stay out of jail? A. Yes.

Were you ever present when any people talked about assassinating the

President? A. No.

Is Perry tolling the truth about you attending the party? A. No.

Are you attempting to withhold any information frora ne now? A. No.

Have you purposely lied to any of my questioas? A. No.

Daring the first these tests, her polygrams contained reactions to the relevant

question: "Are you trying to withhold or conceal any information from me?"

Following the third test, she explained that she suspects Perry Russo might be

"a little queer" for Mike Fitzgerald.

There was not a reaction to the question

On the test following this esplanation.

The Subject was asked by this examiner why she thought Perry Russo was telling

this story. She explained that the last time she saw him, which was in June of

July of 1905, he asked her it she would marry him. Sho stated that he said that

he wanted to marry her so that he wouldn't have to go into the military service.

She stated that she told him she would not marry him. She then quoted him as

saying, "You have got-to marry me and help keep me out of the sarvico." She

stated that she again told him she would not marry him and then further quoted

him ad saying, "Il you won't marry me, I'll have to find someone else who will. "

She added that she believes he is telling this story in an endeavor to avoid going

Into the inilitary aervice.

NH 54462 DocId: 32190039 Page 10

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Page 10

Mr. Hawkins

Juse 21, 1967

RE: Willie Mae McMaines

CONCLUSION:

Aftos careful analysis of this Subject's polygrams, it is the opinion of the

examiner that she told substantially the truth during her examination and

interrogation.

C

Lepnard H. Harrelson

LEONARDE KEELER, INC.

MH/mad

HH 54462

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## Page 12

On June 22, 1967, I. H. Harrelson, in a telephone conversation with a con-

fidential source in New Orleans,

Louisiana, obtained the following iniormation

with regard to Perry Russo.

This informant, who is well known to'L. H.fi. and who is a polygraph examiner

having been trained at the Keeler Polygraph Institute, stated thai Perry Russo was

Examined by another polygraph examiner with the Sherill's Office In New Orleans

and that he had heard that the Sheriff's Office examine, stated that Russo was lying

regarding the story of the plut to assassinate the late John F. Kennedy.

This informant also advised L.H.H. that Perry Russo had been subjected to

narco-interrogation, using sodium pentathol and that he had further been subjected

to hypno-interrogation. He stated that a local psychiatrist subsequently blasted

District Attorney Garrison for using these two techniques and suggested that fusso

should be examined on the polygraph which should be more reliable.

This informant

stated that he received

a call requesting him to examine Russo in regard to his

story.

He stated that he was told that Russo wanted to meet him first to see what

kind of a person he was.

Fie stated that he made an appointment and met Russo for the first time Friday,

June 16, 1967. He stated that at this time he talked for a while and Russo requested

that he be given a trial run on the polygraph and that he wanted to be asked 10 or 20

questions and intended to lie to some of them to see if the examiner could detect

The source stated that he instead had Russo write down a number on a piece of

paper and place it in his pocket. He stated that he then made Russo a bet of $5.00

that he could pick out the number. He further stated that Russo called the bet, the

test was run and the examiner picked out the number.

He stated that Russo appeared in his office on June 19, 1967 to be examined in re-

gard to his story reporting the plot to assassinate the late John E. Kennedy. He

stated that he attempted to examine Russo but that his neumo tracing (breathing)

was so erratic that he reported to D.A. Garrison that he felt Russo was an unfit

subject for polygraph testing at this time.

He further stated that he did talk with

Russo about his tracing and explained to him that he obviously had something

bothering hir. He stated Russo told him that he told the story in court because he

was getting so much pressure from D.A. Garrison and also NBC. He stated thát

Russo further made the statement to him that he did not knowshichay SiDE ED?

"present at the meeting or not. He stated that Russo added thaRite hacte say

"yes" or "no" that he would have to say "no" that Clay Shaw

was notheres py

89:69-3243

Walt

NH 54462 DocId: 32190039 Page 12

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Page 2

This examiner stated that he asked Russo why he went into court and under oath

stated that Shaw was present at the alleged meeting. He stated that Russo replied

that he fully intended to go into court and testify that he did not know if Shaw was

present or not but became angered by Shaw's attorney's question, "Do you believe

This informant stated that Russo admitted having undergone psychiatric treatment

for one and one-halí years. He stated that Russo admitted to homosexual acts.

This informant stated that he fully believes that he would have been able to break

Russo had he continued. He stated that after giving a verbal report to Mr. Garrison

that Mi. Garrison told him in no uncertain terms to keep his mouth shut and not to

say anything about the test or what Russo said. This informant further stated that

his oíficial written report to Mi. Garrison is going to indicate that in his opinion

Russo was an unfit subject on Vonday, June 19, 1967.

NOTE:

The erratic breathing pattern that was described by this informant can indicate

claustrophobia, however, in all of the experience that I have had in conducting

polygraph examinations, an erratic breathing pattern as a general gule is an indica-

tion that the sub ject is being deceptive.

I.. H.H.

mad

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HH 54462

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