INTERVIEW WITH SAM PAPICH
Agency: SSCIA
Originator: SSCIA
Document date: 08/22/1975
Document type: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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JFK Assassination Systemi

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

9/22/201

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER.:

SSCIA

157-10002-10151

RECORD SERIES: INTERVIEW SUMMARY

AGENCY EILE NUMBER:

Released under the John

. Kennedy

Assassination Recorda

Collection Act of 1992

$44 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 54545 Date:

10-12-2017

Document Infornation

ORIGINATOR:

FROM

TO:

SSCIA

TITLE: INTERVIEW WITH SAM PAPICH

PAGES:

08/22/1975

4

SUBJECTS:

ASSASSINATION

BISSELL

CASTRO

CIA

CUBA

GIANCANA, SAM

HARVEY, WILLIAM

HELMS

KENNDY, ROBERT F.

MAFIA

PAPICH

ROSELLI, JOHNNY

DOCUMENT TYPE:

PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: Consulted

CURRENT STATUS:

Withhold

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

09/30/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS:

Box 256Folder 4

19,1

96

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Released under the John

Kennedy

Assassination Records

Collection act of 1992

144 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 54545 Date:

10-12-2017

INTERVIEW AND MEETING SUMMARY

51427

INTERVIEW WITH:

SAM PAPPICH

REGARDING:

Assassination Plots

DATE-TIME-LOCATION: August 22, 1975, Mr. Pappich's Home in

Albuquerque, New Mexico

PRESENT: Andrew Postal

HAS OR SHOULD BE DIGESTED:

FOLLOW UP REQUIRED: -

MATERIALS SUBMITTED BY INTERVIEWEE(s) :

EXECUTIVE SESSION:

_YES

_ NO

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_TERVIEW AND MEETING SUMMARY

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INTERVIEW WITH SAM PAPPICH

FILE:

Interview with Sam Pappich was conducted by Andrew Postal on

Friday, August 22, 1975 at Mr. Pappich's home in Albuquerque, New

Mexico.

Mr. Pappich stated that he became the liaison between the FBI

and the CIA in 1952.

He was part of a liaison section at the Bureau.

He worked closely with Mef Khurtz. Khurtz handled relations with the

various intelligence subcommittees, and also handled much of the

relations with the Office of Security at the CIA.

Pappich stated that he had broad access to Agency personnel:

Pappich would file his reports with the espionage section of the

domestic intelligence branch

the Bureau.

These reports, in turn

would be forwarded

the organized crime section of the Bureau when

information related to the activities of the underworld. In the

Office of Security, Pappich knew and had dealings with Edwards, 0'

Connell, Bannerman, and Osborn.

In a directorate of plans, his con-

tacts included Fissell, Helms, and Harvey.

Pappich stated that he was aware,

in general, of the CIA's anti-

Castro activities in Miami, but not of specific operations.

He knew

the chiefs of the Miami

operations, but was only interested in the

domestic aspects of that operation.

Pappich heard that Attorney General Kennedy had direct communi-

cation with the Central Intelligence Agency.

He described the Attorney

General's involvement in the intelligence community as beginning almost

immediately upon the commencement of the Kennedy Administration.

He

stated that Attorney General Kennedy was involved in, and aware of,

the whole range of intelligence activities..

le stated that the

Attorney General would put pressure on the intelligence community for

results.

He stated that while the Attorney General's involvement with

the intelligence comnunity began prior to the Bay of Pigs, his involve-

ment increased after this operation.

When shown the Bureau's meno of October I8, 1960, Pappich stated

that

anyone in the Bureau would know the significance of the mention

of Giancana•

Ile stated that he would have seen this memo in the normal

course of business, but wouldn't swear to having seen it.

He stated

that he did not discuss this matter with Bissell. He also stated that

he doesn't remember discussing this matter with Dulles.

He stated that

at the time he would have communicated with Edwards or Bannerman in the

Office of Security. He further stated that Mr. Belmont would have been

his superior in the, intelligence division of

the FBI.

Pappich stated that when the wiretap was discovered in Las Vegas

He stated that when the tap was found, the

intelligence of the Bureau would have been on top of the situation.

He

stated that he would have talked to a Mr. Andrews in the organized

crime section after discovering the involvement of the underworld in

this operation. He stated that Courtney Evans'

interest in this

operation would have been fiancana's relationship to the wiretap, and

not to the CIA's involvement.

He stated that Courtney Bans' reports

would have reflected this involvement as a potential impediment to

prosecution. He did state that when the Eureau learned of the wiretap

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and its relation to the CIA, everyone at the Bureau was really upset.

He also stated that the Attorney General didn't want this connection

surfaced.

Pappich stated that with respect to the CIA underworld connection,

he would monitor agency contact with these people. He would report

these contacts to the domestic intelligence section of the Bureau and

they in turn would relate this information to Courtney Evans.

stated that he would file a memo of every contact as reported to him

by personnel at the CIA. He stated that he was briefed

on every

meeting with Roselli and the other underworld figures.

He stated he

vas told the nature of the talks.

While the Office of Security handled

this operation, Edwards was the individual at the CIA who kept Fappich

briefed. He stated that at this time he believed there were two or

three meetings with the Attorney General about this operation, but

doesn't know the specifics, nor was he present at any of these meetings

He stated that his reports would go to the intelligence division,

the

organized crime section and the Director of the FbI.

Pappich stated that the Bureau first became aware of the CIA's in-

volvement with the underworld at the time the Las Vegas wiretap was

discovered. He stated that reports of this connection might have been

made orally. He stated that Edwards and Bannerman kept himself and

Mef Khurtz informed in a general way.

Harvey; formalized the arrange-

ment. He stated that the May 3, 1961 interview with Edwards was pro-

bably handled by either himself or Mef Khurtz. Courtney Evans' division

would have seen the May 22, 1961 memorandum.

As to whether, or what,

was told to the Attorney General, Pappich stated he wouldn't have known

of any meetings with the Attorney General. The CIA kept the FBI well

advised after the tap was discovered.

Pappich stated that the Attorney General would not have gone to the

Bureau in order to find the object of this operation.

The Attorney

General would have found out the nature of the operation by contacting

the DCI directly.

He found it difficult to believe that McCone would

not have known of this operation.. However, he never discussed this

operation with McCone.

He did state that he had ready access to Mr.

McCone and that they discussed many subjects. He stated that the Bureaul's

arrangement with the CIA was worked out prior to the McCone administra~

tion.

He also stated that the Bureau had no pre-wiretap information

on this operation.

After the wiretap was discovered, the Bureau was

aware of the CIA's involvement, and the Attorney General was kept in-

formed

When shown the May 22, 1961 memoranda, Pappich stated that this

clearly indicated that by this time, at least, the particulars of this

operation were known.

He stated that when the Bureau became aware of

the CIA/Giancana involvement, an informal arrangement was worked out.

He stated that Harvey always

told him of contacts with the underworld,

usually in advance.

Information he received concerning Roselli was

incorporated in reports he made to the Bureau.

Harvey would tell him

all of Roselli's movements, and of all associations with Giancana. He

stated that to the best of

his knowledge the CIA alvays got authority

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from either the President, the Attorney General, or the Special Group..

He further stated, that it was especially important to get the Attorney

General's approval. He

stated that Mr. Dulles had direct access to

President Eisenhower. However, he doesn't know whether Eisenhower was

told of this operation. He stated that Robert Kennedy would have

known

of the nature of this operation from the May 22, 1961 memorandun, or

would have found out from the CIA the nature of this operation.

qualified this, however: by stating this is his belief and nothing he

knows as a fact.

le did state that he got feedback from his people

regarding the Attorney General's concern with this operation's potential

flap.

He found it strange that the Attorney General would be shocked

by the news of CIA involvement with the underworld in May of 1962.

Courtney Evans would have walked the May 22, 1961 memoranda over to

the Attorney General, or had someone in his office deliver it.

With respect to the interview of February 7, 1962, he statec

that it he interviewed Edwards, it probably would have been at

Courtney Evans!

request.

He also stated that if he interviewed Edwards,

he was absolutely certain that the Attorney General would not have been

present. He emphatically stated that neither he, nor to the best of

his knowledge anyone at the Bureau, ever knew of

any assassination plot

He stated that the nature of this operation wasn't the Bureau's concern,

it was a foreign intelligence matter.

Pappich was quite certain that he would have filed a memorandum

of every contact with underworld figures as related to him by llarvey.

Ile also was certain he would have done the same with information given

him by Edwards. Pappich stated that he told Harvey from the beginning

of the stupidity of using underworld figures.

He stated that he

believed when Harvey took over the contact with the underworld figures,

he was only doing so because they were strapped with these people. As

far as the FBI was concerned, the damage had already been done with

respect to the problems of prosecuting these underworld figures.

He

stated that the FBI would not have been privy to much of what the

Attorney General would have known about this and other foreign intel-

ligence matters.

The agreement between the Central Intelligence Agency and the FBI

was an understanding that the FBI would be informed by the CIA of any

contacts with underworld people, of their movements, and any intelli

gence which directly or indirectly related to organized crime in the

United States.

This information would include the movement of these

figures, their activities, their travel, and

any meetings.

He again stated that everyone in the

Bureau was madder than hell

about the Agency's involvement with these underworld figures. Io the

best of his knowledge, he never heard that the Attorney General was mad

about this contact.

It was his understanding,

that the underworld

figures were not being used operationally.

When shown the references

in the May 22, 1961

memoranda to this operation as involving anti-

Castro activities and dirty business, Pappich

stated he didn't ask what

the operationally use of these figures was, or get clearance from above

for staying out of this operation. He did

state that the Bureau kept

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the Attorney General advised on what it learned of this operation. Ile

stated that the Attorney General was concerned that this operation

would become known, and didn't want it to get out. Finally, Mr. Pappich

was most concerned that people at the Committee understand what the

nature of the times were.

lle stated that everyone's primary. concern

were with actions directed against the Soviet Union. That actions

directed against Castro's Cuba were an extension of this policy.

primary concern,

as a member of the Bureau's domestic intelligence

section, was with Soviet operations in this country. He feels it is

very important to have an intelligence community in this country, and

feels that the Committee's work perhaps is jeopardizing this important

resource.

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