Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
From: BLAKEY, G. ROBERT
Document date: 12/12/78
Document type: SUMMARY

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/6/201

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10109-10342

RECORD SERIES: NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014214

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: HSCA

FROM: BLAKEY, G. ROBERT

TO:

TITLE:

DATE: 12/12/1978

PAGES:

54

SUBJECTS :

MULE, PETER

OSWALD, LEE HARVEY; POST RUSSIAN PERIOD;

RESIDENCES

VINCENT, HAROLD

SHAW, CLAY

RUBY, JACK

DOCUMENT TYPE: SUMMARY

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: Consulted

CURRENT STATUS: Withhold

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

08/10/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS:

Box 252.

v9.1

HH 50529

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## Page 2

LOUTS STORES, OHIO, ClAI

RICHARDSON PRIVER, NG.

SAMUELL, DEVINE, CHO

WALTER E. FAUNTROY, D.C.

STIWART B. MCKINNEY, CONAL.

YVOAME BRATHMAITE BUTORE, CALIT. !

CHARLES THONE, NEBA.

CHRISTOPHER J. DODD, CONA

HAROLD &, SAWYER, MICH.

HAROLD L, FORD, TENN.

FLOYD J. PITHIAM, IND.

ROBERT W. HODAR, PA.

(202) 273-6828

Select Committee on Assassinations

1.%. House of Representatites

8969 HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING, ANNEX 3

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20518

December 26, 1978

The Honorable Griffin B. Bell

Attorney General of the United States

Department of Justice

Washington, D. C. 20530

Attention:

Mr. Robert I. Keuch

Deputy Assistant Attorney General

Criminal Division, Room 2113

Dear Mr. Attorney General:

In further reference to my letter dated today, Decem-

ber 26, 1978, the Select Committee also requests any and

all information concerning the following individuals:

Harold Joseph Vincent, FBI No. 560 761 F

Peter Mule, FBI No. 572 281 F

It is my understanding that this confirms an oral

communication.

There may also be another letter in the mail

requesting this same

information.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

GRB: đm

cc: Ron Heller

G.

Robert Blakey

Chief Counsel and Director

1-3.78

Last weeks FBI

called. Said their

agend, noted i

hansaugt, was hot

i Pureau : 1963

1Н 50529 DooId:32263247

Page 2

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## Page 3

Resistuned

61650

WILLIAM J. GUSTE, JR.

ATTORNEY GENERAL

State ot Ionisiana

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

CRIMINAL DIVISION

Batart Konge

70808

1885 WOODDALE BLVD.

SUITE iOIO

December 15, 1978

S. A. John I. McCarthy

FBI Headquarters

Ninth and Pennsylvania Avenue, N.E.

Washington, D. C.

20535

Re: Inmate Harold J. Vincent, PMB #73128

Louisiana State

Penitentiary

Dear Sir:

Pursuant to our conversation on December 14, 1978,

in Washington, D. C., I am forwarding with this letter two

(2) tapes reflecting an interview with the captioned subject,

by two (2) of my Investigators, Glen Bullard and Al Millican.

I am also enclosing a memorandum from Investigator

Bullard, to Chief Investigator Ruggiero, explaining how this

interview developed, and all pertinent rap sheets in our

possession.

If we can be of any further assistance to the

Bureau or the House Assassinations Committee please contact

Yours very truary

Walter L. Smith,

Chief, Criminal Division

Louisiana Department of Justice

WLS: ams

Enclosures

HH 50529

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## Page 4

STATE OF LOUISIANA

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

CRIMINAL DIVISION

INTELLIGENCE

CONFIDENTIAL

DATE: December 15, 1978

FILE NO.: 36-004

TO:

FROM:

RE::

A. G. RUGGIERO, CHIEF INVESTIGATOR

GLEN BULLARD, INVESTIGATOR

TAPE RECORDED STATEMENT OF HAROLD J. VINCENT

December 11, 1978, Investigators BULLARD and MILLICAN contacted

inmate HAROLD J. VINCENT for an interview regarding allegations

of inmate abuse at Angola (file #5-005), and which VINCENT might

have firsthand knowledge of.

During the interview, VINCENT made numerous statements alledging

acts of violence upon prisoners by guards:

VINCENT also advised

Investigators he possessed firsthand knowledge about the

assassinati

murder"

arrange

Pit ANd Keyy and aT contract

Information

ceceived

from VINCENT about the inmate abuse was

placed in a report filed in case file #5-005.

Statements

regarding the assassination and "contract murder" were classified

as STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL, NOT TO BE DISSEMINATED, and were not

placed therein.

As VINCENT led Investigators to believe he would speak freely

regarding the assassination and contract murder, Investigators

returned to Baton Rouge and advised Chief Investigator RUGGIERO

of the situation. It was subsequently decided Investigators

BULLARD and MILLICAN would return the following day, December

12, 1978 and completely debreif VINCENT regarding any information

he might possess. The interview was to be tape recorded.

December 12, 1978, VINCENT was debriefed, and VINCENt was

cooperative.: VINCENT did request he be transferred to a

"protection status" and was advised if the information he

provided was found to be truthful, the necessary arrangements

would be made.

The tape recorded interview of VINCENT is attached hereto,

with all related documents to be placed in the safe.

G. L. B.

GLB: ans

CONFIDENTIAL

ITH 50529 DocId: 32263247 Page 4

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## Page 5

()/

STATE OF LOUISiANA

DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

DIVISION OF STATE FOLICE. QUISIANA STATE POLI

CRIMINAL RECORDS UN

BUREAU OF IDENTIFICATIONA O. TRUDE, LOUISI

BATON ROUGE

594 281

The following is the record of Store Police No.

F.B.1. No.560 741 F

; •ERTANT NOTICE

DISSEMINATION OF INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM LOUISIANA STATE POLICE

RAP SHEET AND LOUISIANA STATE POLICE CRIMINAL RECORDS FILES TO

AGENCIES OTHER THAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE AGENCIES IS NOT AUTHORIZED

BY THE STATE POLICE AND THAT PERSON AND AGENCY MAKING SUCH DIS.

SEMINATION MUST ASSUME FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY UNAUTHORIZED

DISSEMINATION.

LA. PEN FILE

NO. 73-128

CONTRIBUTOR

OF FINGERPRINTS

NAME AND NUMBER

ARREST OR

RECEIVED

CHARGE

DISPOSITION

SO Lake Charles, La.

Harold Joseph Vincent 9-20-67

ST (theft)

SPOL Leesville, La.

Harold J. Vincent

2-12-68

auto theft

SO Lake Charles; La.

Harold Joseph Vincent 3-1-68

#SO 83800

auto theft

SPen Angola, La.

Calcasieu Parish

Harold Joseph Vincent 3-12-68

#66383

T

2 yrs. disch. 2-6-70

SO Lake Charles, La.

Harold Joseph Vincent 9-4-70

#SO 83800

att. rape,

agg.

assault; & unauth.

use.

Since neither fingerprints nor ai

identifying numher which is

in

1'01.

dex."

•'•1

re:"';.

manner the sis man dad linders

the individual in whom you di

interested.

For completion of our records, please supply disposition to this Department in any of the foregoing cases where it does not appear

• Represents notations unsupported by fingerprints

DPSSP 3709

N# 50529 DocId: 32263247 Page 5

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## Page 6

STATE OF LOUISIANA

DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

DIVISION OF STATE POLICE

BUREAU OF IDENTIFICATION

BATON ROUGE

The following is the record of Slove Police No.

594 281

F.B.I. No._ 560 741 F

SERTANT NOTICE

DISSEMINATION OF INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM LOUISIANA STATE POLICE

RAP SHEET AND LOUISIANA STATE POLICE CRIMINAL RECORDS FILES TO

AGENCIES OTHER THAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE AGENCIES IS NOT AUTHORIZED

BY THE STATE POLICE AND THAT PERSON AND AGENCY MAKING SUCH DIS-

¡EMINATION MUST ASSUME FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY UNAUTHORIZED

DISSEMINATION.

LOUISIANA STATE POLICE

CRIMINAL RECORDS UNT

BATON ROUSE, LOUISIANA

OF ON GERPRON

FINGERPRINTS

NAME AND NUMBER

ARREST OR

RECEIVED

CHARGE

DISPOSITION

SO Lake Charles, La.

Harold Joseph Vincent 12-9-70

#83800

agg. assault

SO Las Cruces, NNex.

Harold Joseph Vincent 9-3-71

#4122

fug. from la. Ist.

degree murder

FD Las Cruces, NMex.

Harold Joseph Vincent9-3-71

#71-9210

SO Leesville, La.

Harold J. Vincent

#--

inq.9-13-71

SO Lake Charles, La.

Poss. stin. prop.

Since neither fingerprints nor to

identifying number which is in

dexed in our hles accompanied you

request, Louisians Mr:

manner that this material concerns

the individual in whom you are

interested.

murder.

Harold Joseph Vincent9-9-71

#83800

SPen Angola, La.

Calcasieu Parish

Harold Joseph Vincent 44-72

#73-128

armed robbery

15 yrs.

vor compion of our record, please supil, aprestion no lon reported by i er the foregoing cases where i does not apier.

OPSP 3709

No 70529 DocId: 32263247_ Page 6.

---

## Page 7

FORM SP 3-5

STATE OF LOUISIANA

DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

DIVISION OF STATE POLICE

BUREAU OF IDENTIFICATION

BATON ROUGE

594 281

LOUISIANA STATE POLICE

CRIMINAL RECORDS UNIT: •

BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA

The following is the record of State Police No.

F. B. I. No.

560 741 F

CONTRIBUTOR

OF

FINGERPRINTS

NAME AND NUMBER

ARREST OR

RECEIVED

CHARGE

DISPOSITION

WANTED: Harold Vincent for Auto theft warr.

iss. 8-30-71

Notify SO LAke Charles La. inf. rec. 9-1-71 in custody per

print No. 83800 So Lake Charles, La.

since neither tigerprints nor

identifying number which is

in.

dexed in our iles accor panel yous

request, tossini sureau of iden.

rificaton cannot

guarantre in any

manner that this material concerns

the individual in whom vou arr

interested.

+997871789

NOTICE

DISSEMINATION OF INFORMATION QBTAINED FROM

LOUISIANA STATE POLICE RAP SHEETS AND LOU-

SIANA STATE. POLICE CRI: INAL RECORDS FILES

TO AGENCIES OTHER THAN CRIMAL JUSTICE

AGENCIES iS NOT AUTHORIED BY THE STATE

POLICE AND THAT PERSON AND ASSNCY MAKING

SUCH DISSE... NATION MUST ASSUME FULL RES

PONSIBILITY. FOR ANY UNAUTHORIZED DISSEMA

NATION.

For completion of our records, please supply Represents notations unsupported by fingerprints.

disposition to this Department in any of the foregoing cases where it does not appear.

HH

50529

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Page

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## Page 8

SPJ-21

NAME

ALIAS

NO.

VINCENT

LAST

73128

1. THUMB

HAROLD

FIRST -

W

RACE

2. INDEX FINGER

NOTICE

DISSEMIVATION OF INFORMATION OBTAIMED FROM

LOUISIA A STATE POLICE RAP SHEETS AND LOU.

SIANA

LATE POLICE CH INAL RECORDS FILES

LEAVE THIS SPACETPLANK CIES OTHER TIAN CRITAL JUSTICE

JOSEPH

AGENCIES IS NOT AUTWORZED BY THE STITE

MIDDLE

POLICE ARE PERSON AND DOCTOR MALING

SUCH DISSE: LATION MUST ASSUME FULL RES:

PONSIBILITY FOR ANY UNAUTHORIZED DISSEMI

SEX

NATION.

RIGHT HAND

3. MIDDLE FINGER

4. RING FINGER

5. LITTLE FINGER

6. THUMB

7. INDEX FINGER

LEFT HAND

8. MIDDLE FINGER

9. RING FINGER

10. LITTLE FINGER

HAIR BIN

EYES

LSP NO. 73128

FINGERPRINTS TAKEN BY:

Lablo GRESi AM

BLUe

_ HEIGHT. 5-6

FBI NO.

560 741 F

DATE PRINTS TAKEN

LORENAMEL

4-4-72

_ WEIGHTLE

LEFT

FOUR FINGERS TAKEN SIMULTANEOUSLY

- AGE 22

_DATE OF BIRTH 28-49

PRISONER'S SIGNATURE

Parald o vincent

RIGHT

POUR FINGERS TAKEN SIMULTANEOUSLY

FILL OUT OTHER SIDE

LOUISIANA STATE POLICE

CRIMINAL RECORDS UNIT

BATON ROUGE, LO ICIAMA

NN 50529 DocId:32263247 Page 8

neither fingerprints

entifying number

whis

dexed in our hles accompa

requese Louisiana Bureãu ri

rihuation cannoi guarante:

manner that this material

the individual in whom

jwh

interested

---

## Page 9

-"1.

IDENTIFICATION AND CRIMINAL RECORDS DIVISION

LOUISIANA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

-.--

BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA

LOUISIANA STATE FONTENTIAR.

RECORD FROM-

_ ADDRESS

DATE OF ARREST _

47-72

_CHARGE -

Armed Robbery

DISPOSITION_

Fifteen (15), Years

RESIDENCE.

1507 Denaret St. Jake Charles, La.

STREET ADDRESS

CITY

PLACE OF BIRTHLake Charles, IZ.

CITIZENSHIP

OCCUPATION.

Laborer

STATE

TATTS:H.V. lft wrst, Cross rt him.

SCARS AND MARKS

NAME AND ADDRESS OF NEAREST RELATIVEDella Vincent (Mother) Same as above

Do Not Write In This Space

IDENTIFYING NUMBERS

Class

Searched

Checked

Verified.

Remarks

SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER

SELECTIVE SERVICE NUMBER

ARMED SERVICES SERIAL NUMBER

DRIVERS LICENSE INFORMATION

DLA

STATE ISSUED

TYPE OF DL

PLEASE TYPE OR PRINT ALL OF THE INFORMATION ABOVE

NH 50529 DocId: 32263247

Page 9

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## Page 10

STATE OF LOUISIANA

NOTICE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

DI.

N OF INFORMATION OBTAINED DINGION OF STATE POLICE

TE

GATE POLICE RAP SHEETS A BUREAU OF IDENTIFICATIOA. MEN SILE

POLICE CRIMINAL RECOR

DPS

-10

..SS

OTHER THAN CRIMINAL

• BATON ROUGE

IS NOT. AUTHORIZED BY THE

NO. 23-082

iND. JHAT PERSON AND AGENCY

MiSSEMINATION MUST ASSUME F

7.9.

The followingTys FoRreddyd of state Police

665 735

F. B.MATION.

572 281 F

CONTRIBUTOR

OF FINGERPRINTS

NAME AND NUMBER

30 Crthse

New Braunfels

Texas

Peter Mule

# 17860

PD New Orleans, La.

Peter

Frank Mule

# 125 328

30 Evergreen, Ala.

Peter F. Mule

#

"D New Orleans, La.

Peter Frank

Mule

# 125 328

PD Dallas, Texas

Peter Frank Mule

# 90567

30 Gretna, La.

Peter Frank Mule

# 28114

PD, New Orleans,

La.

SPen Angola. La

Orleans Parish

Peter Frank

[Mule #125328

Peter Frank

Mule #73082

ARREST OR

RECEIVED

3-21-66

2-24-67

5-5-69

10-17-69

11-7-70

1-26-71

4-27÷71

3-21-72

LOUISIANA STATE POLICE

CRIMINAL RECORDS UNIT

BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA

CHARGE

DISPOSITION

burglary

Gambling

Forgery

Agg. Burg.

Inv. VSNL Burg

Gambling by

handbook

Murder

18-15-73 No record

in clerks office.

Murder

Natural Life

since neither fingerprims, nor

ir!

!

fring number

ix!

In our files accon:

Louisiana Bürest !:

cannot guaranter

it this material

sual in whom you

ira.

are

• For completion of our records, please supply

disposition

to this Départment in

any of the foregoing cases where it does not appear.

• Represents notations unsupported by fingerprints.

DPS 11-10

1

HW 50529 Docid: 32263247 Page 10

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## Page 11

December 12, 1978

Louisiana State Penitentiary

Angolas, Louisiana

11:00 a.M.

Present:

Harold J. Vincent, Investigators Al Mullican and

Glen Bullard

Vincent:

This is concerning when President Kennedy got killed,

in 1972, I went to New Orleans, me and a friend

to go to Bourbon Street and look at it, we had never

seen it before, and all this is.

Investigator: Now is this 1972 or 62?

Vincent:

'62, excuse me.

It was during the winter time, about

September or October, something like that, and we were

down on Bourbon Street and we met a man who turned out

to be Clay Shaw. As, I'd like to say that he turned

out to be

a homosexual, that's the reason he picked

us up and brought us to his house, and other reasons,

we had sex and everything else.

Well, me and him got

to be pretty good friends, I wasn't but twelve years

old, and he would send me money to south Louisiana

where I was living at the time and to take a bus back

and forth to New Orleans to meet him every now and

then.

Well, in the progress of us getting acquainted and

becoming pretty together and everything, he started

taking me out and stuff. Well, one night we were

sitting

at his house watching television, and he

said

"let's got to the airport, I've got to pick up

a friend." So we went to the airport, and he picked

up a sort of a short, not too short, about my height,

about 5'8", 5'9", guy, wore glasses, had a hat on.

Later on I found out he was bald-headed. So we went

to the house.

I went in the bedroom to go to bea,

this was about 12:30, 1:00 in the morning. So I went

in and went to bed and they started talking and stuff.

I really didn't pick up too much of the conversation,

I know they had a movie projector running, and this

and that, looking at films and sturi.

So the next

day he sent me home. About two weeks later he sent

me some more money to come back and visit him, so 1

went, and the same man was there, and this time the

man really got mad about him having me at the house

at this time, because there was some more people there.

HH 50529

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## Page 12

2

Mr. Shaw asked me to just go to a movie, or something,

until they could leave, so I did.. I come back about

6:00 that evening, the

people were gone, and I asked

why the man got mad and made me leave and stuff. He

just wouldn't answer me, he was acting very suspicious

you know, like something was wrong with him or some-

thing.

so, I went about three weeks without seeing

him again, and he wrote me a letter and asked me the

next time

I come down to bring some clothes, cause

we were go on a little trip.

So I brought couple

extra suits of clothes and stuff.

Told my parents

that I was going to stay with a

friend and stuff.

This was about November at this time.:

First of

November, I believe.

So we went to Florida, Miami, Florida, and the same

man that was at Clay Shaw's

house that night picked

us up at the airport and took us to a motel room, and

that's where we were staying. That night he came to

pick us up, brought us to his house, we ate supper

there.

They took me and asked me to go with this

other guy and we left, went shopping, brought some

clothes and

did some other things.

Clay Shaw stayed

at this guy's house.

Which later on I found out to

be a man named, I don't know if I can pronounce his

name right, Terracoti, or something like this. So

we stayed there for two days and we flew back to New

Orleans, and I went back home.

So then, about four days later, I went back to Shaw's

house again, I skipped school on a Thursday evening

and went to his house. I stayed there from Thursday

to Sunday.

Well, in the progress of me staying there,

ne got numerous phone calls,

a couple of them from

and as, serent other place tone vet one the phone.

He got a lot more that I didn't even get to answer

ne Erothe phone.

the phone to.

And, there was pictures, you know, like

there was pictures

in his room and stuff and the pro-

jector was still set up, movie screen.

They had a

picture of where Kennedy was actually killed at, you

know like they'd stop the picture and put x's on the

screen and different other things.

He got kinda mad at me, noticing, messing around with

the projector and everything else, so that night we

went out and we went uptown to go eat and Shaw had a

big brown envelope, sorta like thing, and there was

some money in it.

There was two people there, and

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## Page 13

3

later on we went to another place. He gave them two

people some money, and then later on we went to another

place, and he gave another man some money, which later

on turned out to be, to my knowledge, Oswald and this

other man, and Jack

Ruby•

Then first part of 1963, I started getting in trouble.

and stuff, stealing.

was stealing cars and stuff

and

selling them to a place for money in Bomont,

Texas.

And that was nothing but, sort of, pocket

money and stuff. So, he let me come down

and stay

for

a while with him. I stayed about two weeks with hin

and there was a lot of conversation.

Terraconti came

over and they started talking and stuff, and I'm in

the kitchen, eating a sandwich, and I could hear them

start yelling at each other.

Terraconti was telling

Shaw that he was gonna do what he tells him to do or

else. Don't worry about the other people, that he's

got them covered, that they won't say nothing, and

different other things.

I really couldn't understand what he was really talking

about, about he's gonna have to do what he tells him

to do,

or else, and stuff. So they went on and Kennedy

got killed and

the pictures that was marked off on

the screen and different other things; and Oswald

was

in the book store,

but the second man was on the ground from the x's

on the screen of the movie projector, was on the

tot the

ground in between the tree and the fence and after

Kennedy was shot, the guy on the ground left, he

jumped over the fence into a car which somebody was

waiting for him and left, and went to Houston, Texas

where he stayed for a while.

B.02

understand, he went back to Cuba or someplace, and

Shaw just sorta laid low, as they call it. The other

guy stayed in Houston for about three weeks after

I was in I.T.I. at the time he

was killed for different things and I run off from

I.I.I. and I went to Shaw's house, and this second

individual who was implicated in shooting Kennedy was

there..

So Shaw gave him some more money, and told him to

leave the state and leave the country, if possible,

HH 50529

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## Page 14

4

don't worry about nothing, that Ruby would be taken

care of.

There was some conversation whenever Terra

cotti was there concerning Ruby and a nightclub in

Dallas, I don't even know the name of it, from what

I understand, from what I've been reading about it,

it was a topless place.

l'erracotti was, Ruby was dealing pretty much drugs

for Terracotti in Dallas, and this was when Kennedy

cracked down on organized crime, in the early 60's,

him and his brother, gambling,

drugs, prostitution,

different other things, and this was what triggered

the whole thing off.

Now, one time I was at Shaw's house and there was two

FBI agents there talking to him and I didn't really

hear the whole conversation, they were saying, Shaw

would tell them look, just don't worry about it, just

get the information

that we need, what route he's

gonna take, who's going to be in

the car, different

other things, what time is he gonna come through,

what time is he gonna get there, how many people are

gonna be around him.

Shaw noticed that I was over-

hearing the conversation so he told me I would have

to leave.

Well, in the process of leaving, I guess

he was the one that called the police and got me

busted. I didn't get actually caught in New Orleans,

I made it back to Lake Charles, to where I got caught

there.

They said I stole a car and

they sent me back

to L.T.I.

So, While I'm in L.T.I., he'd write me letters and

things and send me a few things.

I stayed there

until 1967 and I got sent to Quincy for running off.

He fixed it up with some people to get me discharged

out of Quincy, after I had stayed there for a year.

After I had stayed there for a year, to the exact day,

I got out and I went back and lived

in S

for

a while and I'd go see him every now and then, and

he'd give me money and stuff and he'a question me

about different things I'd heard in the past, and

seen, and stuff, and told me that I could be

taken

care of real good if I'd just mind my own business,

don't say nothing, don't say nothing about what I

seen, or who I seen at his house, and different other

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## Page 15

5

things, so I told him "okay". Then I got, he intro-

duced me to

some people from New Orleans, and I got

implicated in another car theft ring around Lake

Charles, stealing cars and that.

Now, I'd like to backtrack a minute, to the times

when I was at his house. One time I was there that

it wasn't actually Carlos, Carlos Marcello that

come to his house, it was

his son, I think it was

Vincent Marcello that they call him.

He come there

and he gave Shaw some money and stuff and told him

to see to it that it gets to the right people and •

that they take care of their jobs the way it was

+ d the t

supposed to go and stuff and everything would be

They had a little argument and stuff and they

asked Shaw was he trying to back out of the deal.

He told them no, but he was too far implicated in the

thing now to back out now, so that's where some of

the money come from to pay Oswald and this other

individual, I'd rather not say his name at this time,

if it's okay. He paid them.

That's the night that

we went out to eat that some of the money come from

Marcello and some of it come from this guy from

Florida. You know like they were constantly on him

to take

get paid, to see to it that all of the arrangements

were made that they have what they needed, seemed

like that they had a lot of pressure going on at the

time. Lotta arguments was happening.

There was, like the two FBI agents that was there,

one of them is still working in New Orleans now, he's

been up here to see me a couple of times, but I don't

believe that he really knows who I am. They were

there, and they had a lot of pressure on him. I don't

know if they had anything on him, or what it was, if

they were getting paid, or what, but they had a lot

of pressure on them to get certain information for

them.

Whenever they were supposed to kill Kennedy or

something, he was, they was supposed to really happen

in Louisiana, if I'm not mistaken, he was supposed to

come to Baton Rouge, or New Orleans, or something

and that's whenever they were supposed to have shot

him.

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Something happened, something, I don't know really

it ended up that he got shot in

what it wain the preparation of them making the

Dallas and

plan to shoot him and stuff, they were

making the

change their plans to Dallas.

You know the FBI

come across, you know they gave them folders of

papers and they'd come over, talk, sit there for

three or four hours talking about different things,

there were some heated conversations and arguments

that went on with Shaw and this guy Marcello,

the FBI agents, little short,

kind of dude,

not real fat,

about 180, 190 pounds. It was just

a real heated thing that was going down between

them.

Like they wanted to do it, but then it seemed

like they were being forced to do it, or whatever.

I got out of Quincy, and like I said, I got implicated

in a car theft ring

there, selling cars to the same

guy in Bomont, Texas, and stuff, and I went to see

Shaw couple times after that.

He questioned me, you

know, about what I've seen and what I've heard, like

he'd

give me a photo album with pictures, you know,

to a page, he'd ask me,

here?" and I'd say "no, I don't."

And he'd say

"well, that's the one that you met in Baton Rouge",

or something like that, he wouldn't tell me that it

was really like Terracotti or Marcello, or something

like this, but I just wouldn't really own up to

letting him know that I knew who it was, because at

this time I started to realize more and

more what he

was really off into and what really happened.

I kept my mouth shut, and I got implicated, after the

car-ring, I got implicated with some other people that

worked for Marcello, they're here in Angola now, and

there was a few killings that happened. Like they

would hold this over my head, and stuff.

Shaw would tell me, "look, we know that you were in

on this killing here" you know, that "you shot the

guy or that you were with him whenever he got shot,.

so you're with us now, you know, so just watch your

p's and q's and keep quiet about everything."

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An I went along with them for a long time, now I'm

up here, they keep on promising this, that they're

gonna get me out, that they're gonna hire a lawyer

to do this.

Every now and then I hear from them,

one of the

Marcello brothers, Vincent mostly,

telling me to be cool, that they've got this working

in my case and they've got that working, and do I

need anything, or for me to contact this individual

in Angola if I need anything. Stuff like this.

Well, I was laying in my cell one night reading the

Newsweek about the assassination and that's when it

finally dawned on

dawned on.

me that they were just actually

using me and that's whenever I decided to tell what

I know about it and let the truth come out if it

can.

Investigator: Have you been in contact with anyone else about

this information that you're giving us at this time?

Vincent:

Yes, I was, I've been in contact with a lady that

works for Newsweek magazine, Miss Susan, I can't

pronounce her last name, F-a-r-k-e-r, Farker, or

something like that.

Investigator: Have you heard from her?

Vincent: Yes, she said that they have forwarded information

that I have gaven to her to the House Assassination

Committee because they are more equipped to deal with

the information that I have sent them.

Investigator: How long ago was this?

Vincent: I got that letter from her on the 14th.

Investigator: Of this month?

Vincent: Yes sir, and, no excuse me, she wrote the letter on

the l4th of last month and

I got the letter a couple

of weeks ago, the first of December.

Investigator: What did you tell her in your letter to her?

Vincent: Uh, I told her that I appreciate her trying to help

me and I'm ready to reveal the information that I do

know about the Kennedy assassination and the people

that I know of that was involved in it. But, that

I do not want to talk to no FBI or CIA agents from

Louisiana, and if at all possible, I wouldn't want

to talk to nobody here in the prison about it, and

that I be given some type of protection concerning

this after I do reveal the information. That I will

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testify in front of the House Assassinations Committee

if they would like, and if charges are brought against

individuals, I would be willing to testify against

them in a trial and try to obtain a conviction, if I

could.

Investigator: Let's go back to the beginning. There's some

questions that I had.. In the fall of 1962, you

were twelve at that time?

Vincent: I was twelve years of age.

Investigator: And you and a friend decided to go to New

Orleans.

Vincent:

Yes.

Investigator:

Who was the friend that went with you?

Vincent: He's dead now.

Investigator: Could you tell us what his name was?

Vincent: David Lovitt.

Investigator: Is he any kin to Donald Lovitt?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: How did he die?

Vincent: He got shot in the head with a .22 rifle.

Investigator: Was it a murder?

Vincent:

Yes, sir.

Investigator: Has anyone been arrested on that murder?

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Was the correct person arrested on that murder?

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Did the truth come out about his murder?

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: You and David Lovitt, was he approximately the

same age as you were?

Vincent: He was I'd say four or five years older than I was.

Something like that.

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Investigator:

Were you in school at that time?

Vincent:

Yes, sir.

Investigator:

What school did you attend?

Vincent: W. W. Lewis Junior High School.

Investigator: Was that in Sulta?

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator:

Were you living with your parents at that time?

Vincent: I was living with my mother. My father is deceased.

Investigator: What was your father's name?

Vincent: Lavrence Bensen + ?

Investigator: Your mother's name?

Vincent?

Vincent: Della Benson.

Investigator: Does she still reside in Sulta?

Vincent:

No sir,

She resides in Lake Charles, Louisiana now.

She's living with a man named Joe Bicata.

Investigator: You and David Levitt went there. How did you

all

go to New Orleans?

Vincent: We hitch-hiked.

Investigator: How long did you stay there?

Vincent: Well we got there that evening, pretty late, it was

We had trouble crossing the brlage

going into New Orleans and we stayed there aftei

he picked us up we stayed there all that night anc

Investigator:

Was it a school day that you all went down

on?

Vincent: I believe it was, Yes, I believe it was a Thursday

or Friday or something like that.

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Investigator: So you decided you just wanted to go to New

Orleans to see the sights. Mostly see Bourbon Street,

Vincent: Mostly see Bourbon Street.

Investigator: You hitchhiked down there. Did you have any

place to stay the first night you were there?

Vincent: We stayed at Clay Shaw's house.

Investigator: Where did you all run into Clay Shaw?

Vincent: They got, if I remember correctly, there in the

French Quarter it was about - I remember we just

passed a Playboy Club or whatever it is on some

street and we were walking uptown or whatever direction

it is and he was coming out of a place there on Bourbon

Street, whatever, and he started talking to us and

asked us if we would like to make a little money. We

stopped and told him sure.

Investigator: Was anyone with him?

Vincent: No sir. He was by himself.

Investigator: O.K. And he came out of a place near the

Playboy Club?

Vincent: If I remember correctly it was.

Investigator: And this was Clay Shaw you saw?

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator:

He asked you if you wanted to make some money.

What else did he say?

Vincent: And we told him sure. And he said well come on and

get in the car so we

got into the car and started

driving around and I was

sitting by the door and Shaw

was ariving, Davie was sitting in the middle. Him

and Davie I

guess they didn't hit it off too well or

whatever but he come out and told us that for us to

make the money and stuff that we would have to have

sex with him and different other things so Davie

wouldn't go along with him so I went along with him

and I guess that's why our relationship got to be as

good as it was cause I sort of liked him and I felt

ma cause t

that he liked me pretty much too.

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Investigator:. Can you describe Clay Shaw for us?

was

Vincent:

He/about six one six two.

He weighs about 210 - 215,

something like that. He had gray hair.

Just a normal

build. He wasn't fat.

He wasn't all that skinny at

Had a part in his hair and combed it to the

that time don't know if it was glasses or sunglasses

that

• he had on.

They looked like sunglasses to me.

I don't know whether they were perscription or not,

but he had on a pair of glasses.

Normal tongued. man, talke

kind of slow, sort of, and easy going.

Investigator:

Did he have any peculiar sexual habits that you

found to be peculiar, now seem to think were peculiar?

Vincent:

Uh... Just that you know, he would like

he

liked oral sex more than he did the other type of

sex and he was more of a freak in watching people have

sex than anything else. And he got off on that watching

two men or two women together having sex and he would

do, to you all, I would say, would be strange things like

you know let people masturbate on him or something like

this, you know. I would say it was abnormal, yes.

Investigator: Would he bring other men and other women in?

You say he liked to observe them. Would he bring

them in while you were present?

Vincent:

He did a couple of times, yes. He brought one little

homosexual in where me and this boy had sex together while he

was sitting in a chair masturbating and watching us and

stuff.

Investigator: Do you recall the names of any of the people he

brought in?

Vincent: No sir, I don't.

Invesitgator: You mentioned he took you all in a car, do you

recall what kind of

car it was?

Vincent: If I'm not mistaken, it was a Buick.

Investigatonter fo you recall what color of anything about the

Vincent: Nothing unusual about the inside, it was a pretty big

car, for that time of year, I guess, nothing really

unusual about it, it was sort of a green Buick, I

would say it was, green on the outside.

Wasn't

nothing really unusual about it.

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Investigator: How did David get back to Lake Charles?

Vincent: We caught the bus.

Investigator: He stayed with you, but he did not engage in

any . .

Vincent: He stayed with us, but he stayed off in another bed-

room, more to himself.

• he didn't participate at

all in the sexual part or anything else.

Investigator: And, the money for the bus was provided by Shaw? .

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: How would he carry his money, do you recall

if he carried a wallet or a money clip?

Vincent: He carried it, some of it he carried, you know like

the small bills, you know, ones, and fives and tens

like that, he'd carry it in a money clip in his front

pocket.

Investigator: On the right side? You're gesturing to your right.

Vicent: I'd say the right, yes, because if I'm not mistaken, he

was right-handed. But then he had a sort of a check

book, at that time he had a sort of a tri-fold deal

that had the checks and the money together in it with

the credit cards and he would sometimes carry it in his

coat pocket, and other times he would put it in his

right back pocket - I mean it just depends on where he

was going and what he was gonna do.

Investigator: And he provided this money to you and David to

get back to Lake Charles?

Vincent: Yes sir.

Investigator: Approximately how long after you returned to Lake

Charles did you next hear from him?

Vincent: I'd say about a week and a half. Something like that.

Investigator: How'd he contact you?

Vincent: He called me.

Investigator: Did anyone else talk to him, or just you?

Vincent: He called at my aunt's house. We didn't have a phone

at the time.

She come and got me. She lived across

the street and I went and talked to him.

He said that

he had a money order coming for me to catch the bus

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to New Orleans and I went and I got the money order

at the bus. station and caught the bus to New Orleans

that Friday evening after school, told my parents

that I was going to stay with a guy named David ...

uh wow... his first name was David and we had another

friend

named Dickey Hopkins and each one of us told

our parents that we were gonna go stay with him and

he went told his parents that he was gonna stay with

me and I told my parents I was gonna go stay with him

and we'd just go and stay gone two or three days and

tell them, you know, like that time I told them I was

going to

stay with David's parents and him to go to

Alexandria, and I went to New Orleans.

Investigator: You say your aunt's house. Who was your aunt?

Vincent: Miss Wilferd Reshaw?

(sp.)

Investigator:

Wilferd Reshaw.

Does she still reside in the

Lake Charles area?

Vincent: In Sulfa.

Investigator: Where did David live?

Vincent:

He lived in Lake Charles.

Investigator: You recall the street?

Vincent:

It was out on 171, somewheres out on highway 171 going

towards Durittick (sp).

INvestigator: So, he sent you a money order and it was at the

bus station?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator:

Was it made out to you?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator:

You cashed the money order, bought you a ticket,

went to New Orleans?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: He picked you up at the bus station?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: O.K. What happened that time?

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Vincent:

We went to his house, we just went to his house, he

bought me some clothes...

Investigator: Where did he buy your clothes?

Vincent:

At a, some place on Canal Street. It was, I know I

kept on bugging him about buying me a pair of Italian

shoes and he finally said, "alright come on, we're

gonna

go get you some shoes and some clothes, and

He went and he bought me that pair of Italian shoes

cause I remember at that time my foot was cut and

he was complaining about me wearing a shoe that might

be too tight because of my toe being cut, and I told

him well don't worry about it. We went on ahead and

got the shoes and the clothes and stuff and we went

back to the house, had sex a couple of times, and

went out,

and we ate that night.

Investigator: Do you recall where you ate?

Vincent: MMMM, no sir, I don't.

Investigator: Was it near his home?

Vincent:

No, sir, it was near the Ponchatrain Beach, if I'm not

mistaken, somewheres in that, by Ponchatrain Beach. Yeah,

I remember that we was driving by Ponchatrain Beach and

I asked him what was that, and he told me that was

Ponchatrain Beach, and I told him I ain't never been

there before and he said that we would go there some-

time.

Investigator: You stayed with him the weekend?

Vincent:

Yes, I stayed with him until Sunday morning.

Investigator: How did you get back home?

Vincent: I took the bus.

Investigator: Did anyone else come to the house while you were

there that weekend?

Vincent: The first weekend I was there, that's whenever we went

to the airport, if I'm not mistaken and picked up that

guy from Miami, and he stayed there Saturday night

and he left Sunday because I remember he dropped me

off at the bus station and the guy was with him, said

he was going to take him to the airport, somewheres

to see somebody or something, but they dropped me

off at the Greyhound Bus Station and took me on to,

I took the bus on home.

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Investigator:

Do you always use Greyhound?

Vincent:

Yes.

Investigator: Could you describe this man again from Miami?

Vincent: He was about 5'6", 5'7", maybe a little taller,he was

medium build, about 170, 180 pounds, maybe 190 pounds,

то но 412, 200

he wore glasses, he had a hat on, he was bald-headed,

not completely bald-headed, he was more or less bald

down the middle of his head. He had, I would say, an

accent in his voice, a sort of, I'a say, I really

don't know what kind of accent, French or something,

kind of a harsh-toned voice, he was always demanding

stuff, you know, hollering you got to do this, take

care of your business the way it's supposed to be

taken care of or else, or other things. Very well

dressed man, wore suits, dressed real good.

Investigator: During the time that he was there that weekend,

were any women brought in, were any other men brought

in?

Vincent: No sir, not that I remember.

Investigator: Did he accompany you and Mr. Shaw to the Poncha-

train Beach area for dinner?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Do you recall what was discussed during the time

that you were present when they were talking?

Vincent: Construction work, you know, how's his business going,

...

Investigator:

Whose business is this?

Vincent: Shaw's business.

Investigator: Shaw had a construction business?

Vincent: From what they were talking about, he was working on

some type of construction job or something, building

some kind of building or something, and, you know,

just some normal

kind of conversation, they never

you know, uh, he'd ask him has he seen somebody, and

he would

a name, I don't really remember what

names he would say, but he would call a name, and

you know like Shaw

wouldn't even answer him.

Terra-

cotti would get kind of mad and demand an answer,

slap the table and tell him you're not taking care of

your business the way you're supposed to. Stuff like

this.

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Investigator:

And this man, you arrived in New Orleans on

Friday, is that correct?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: When did he arrive?

Vincent: He arrived Saturday morning.

Investigator: Do you recall what airline he flew?

Vincent: No sir, I don't. We picked him up at the airport in

New Orleans, I don't really remember what airlines

it was.

Investigator: When you left Sunday, did Shaw take you to the

Greyhound terminal?

Vincent: Yes, sir. Shaw and Terracotti both.

Investigator: They were both present?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Do you know if Terracotti was going to leave that

day, or ..

Vincent:

Yes sir. He dropped me off at the bus station and put

me on the bus back to my home, and they were, he was

bringing Terracotti back to the airport to catch a

plane back to Miami.

Investigator: You mentioned, what was the next time you went

down there?

Vincent: Oh, about two, three weeks later.

Investigator: And this was still '62?

Vincent: Yes..162.

Investigator: Two or three weeks later you returned to New

Orleans, how were the arrangements made for you to

return?

Vincent: The same way.

Investigator: He would call you at your aunt's phone?

Vincent: He would call me and tell me that he had a money order

coming and for me to go pick it up and come on down.

Investigator: When you say a money order, it would be at the

Greyhound station in Lake Charles?

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Vincent: No sir, it would be at the Greyhound bus station in

Sulfa.

Investigator: Sulfa? And would you have to endorse this and

cash it.

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Endorse it and cash it and then you would purchase

your ticket with the cash (unintelligible)

Vincent: Yes. He would always send me something like three or

four dollars, maybe five dollars over, to buy me some-

thing to eat on the way down and stuff.

Investigator: Were the money orders made out in your name?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Did they bear your home address or anything?

Vincent:

No, sir. Not that I remember. He'd just make it out

in my name and Greyhound bus station in Sulfa. That's

where I picked it up at.

Investigator: Do you recall what kind of money order it was?

What company?

Vincent: I never noticed it that well.

Investigator: So, approximately three weeks later, you returned.

to New Orleans, what happened that time?

Vincent:

We, that's whenever he was given, if I'm not mistaken,

that's whenever he was giving the people the money.

had some money in a brown envelope and we went out that

night to eat and before we left there was some people

there, and they were showing some movies or something.

If I remember correctly, they were showing sone movies

• that night and some pictures, and different other

things.

Investigator: What kind of movies?

Vincent:

They were some movies of some buildings on the inter-

state, you know, they were to my knowledge now, it was

the movie of the route that Kennedy was supposed to have

taken and stuff, cause they were discussing if he gets

here he ain't gonna be able to get out fast enough:

cause of this is in his way, and stuff, and they'd put

x's on the screen and different other things.

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Investigator:

Was it a big film or a small film?

Vincent: It was about the size of this table, something like

that, maybe a little bit bigger.

Investigator: The screen?

Is that what you're saying. The

size of this table, about four feet by four feet?

Vincent: Yes sir, something like that. The projector was

I guess 8 mm, whatever they call them.

big projector. You know, like they'a run the film for

a little while, it was a little roll of film about the

size of this ash tray here.

Investigator: About three inches in diameter?

Vincent:

Yes, and they'd get to a certain spot on the film and

they'd stop the projector and they'd go, you know,

they'd put an x on it, show, they'd talk, and they d

put another x on it and stuff.

Investigator: How many men were present when this was taking

place?

Vincent:

There was Shaw, this Marcello guy, me and Terracotti

was there, cause that's the night

he got really by

him having me there and noticing all this.

I believe

the two FBI agents were there that night, too, if I'm

not mistaken. Somebody brought Shaw a folder with

some papers and some other things in it.

Investigator: This Marcello. You say his name was Vincent?

Vincent: If I'm not mistaken. I know he was one of Carlos

Marcello's sons.

INvestigator:

Could you describe him for us please?

Vincent:

He's about 5'g", 5'8"

something like that, he

weighed about 180, 190, good dressed man, he had

black hair, combed it

straight back. Had on a pair

smoked. That's about

we about le fl not mistaken. He

Investigator: You mention smoke, did Shaw smoke?

Vincent: I never seen him smoke.

Investigator: Did he drink?

Vincent:

No, sir.

Investigator: Did not smoke or drink in your presence?

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Vincent: I don't know if he smoked or not, but I know he

didn't never drink in my presence. He never smoked

in my presence.

Investigator: Did he use any type of narcotics?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: What kind of narcotics?

Vincent:

Speed.

Investigator: He used speed?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Were they pharmaceutical speed?

Vincent: Yes, at that time I think they were called "mollies"

or whatever they were. Black caps . • •

(Switch to side two of tape)

Investigator: I believe you said that these were pharmaceutical

speed, they referred to them as "mollies", they were

black capsules. Did he ever utilize any other type

of narcotics?

Vincent: No sir, not that I know of.

Investigator: Did he ever tell you where he was obtaining the

narcotics?

Vincent: He just said that his doctor would give it to him.

Investigator: Did he ever say who his doctor was?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: So it was yourself, Marcello, Shaw, Terracotti,

and the two FBI agents?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Was there anyone else present?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Could you describe the two FBI agents?

Vincent: One of them weighs about 210, 220, something like that.

He's

got brown hair, glasses.

Demanding type of man.

His face was kind of bumped. Sort of a fat face, sorta

like.

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Investigator: How tall was he.

Vincent: He was about, uh, I'd say about 5'10", 5'l]", something

like that.

Investigator: Sort of fat, then?

Vincent: Yes sir.

Investigator:

Anything else you can recall about him?

Vincent:

Mmmmm, no, sir.

Investigator: Did you ever know his name? Can you recall his

name?

Vincent: I know his name, yes, sir. Uh, I say I know his name,

I can't remember it right now, uh, he's been up here to

see me a couple of times, and, he come up here and talked

to me one time about this gun incident that happened up

here, and I refused to talk to him, and he come up here

to see me another time concerning something else, and I

refused to talk to him again.

And, uh, I can't even

think of his name right now. Starts with a "p", I know

that.

Investigator: Petley? (sp)

Vincent: Petley, if I'm not mistaken. That's his name.

Investigator: What. color hair did he have?

Vincent: Brown hair, about the color of yours.

Investigator: About the color of mine?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Did, uh, what part did he take in this?

Vincent: He was one of them that brought some papers and stuff

over to Shaw's house that night. He had a folder with

some papers and stuff in it, and they kept on telling

him that they needed the rest of the information and

stuff, and, you know, he just told them, yeah, well,

I'll get it, and just don't rush me, and stuff. They

got in, not an argument, but sorta like demanding that

he get it and all that, and . •

Investigator: Can you describe the other FBI agent?

Vincent: He was, uh, about the same built, but he was a little

shorter than this other man was. He didn't wear glasses

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or nothing. He had sort of blond hair.

He weighed

about 180, 190.

About 5'6", 5'7", something like

that. He smoked a cigar. Uh, he had sort

of a flat

nose, about hisself, big eyes. He just...he drunk

you know, he drunk a lot.

Investigator: What was he drinking?

Vincent: Whiskey, mostly, vodka and stuff like this. And, uh,

he wouldn't talk too much, he'd just listen, you know,

and he wouldn't talk unless they would talk to him.

He was more or less in the background, sorta like.

(Investigator stops tape to verify recording.)

Investigator: Did you ever know what the name of the second

FBI agent was?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Did they have any nicknames they used in this

group?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Anybody have any peculiar sayings that they would

use?

Vincent:

Just that un, like un, you know like Marcello he would

talk about his father a"lot, you know, Daddy said this

or father said this, uh, things like that.

Investigator: Did you ever have occasion to meet Carlos Marcello?

Vincent: One time, yes.

Investigator: Where was that?

Vincent: We were going out that one night, to go to a movie and

stuff, me and Shaw and another boy that he picked up,

and we were partying and stuff, and I met him there,

he was in a car.

Investigator: That was parked?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: He was in a car, do you recall where?

Vincent: It was at a movie house, it was on Canal Street, I

guess they call it, it was going out towards the

where the bridge is at, somewheres around there, on

Canal Street.

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Investigator: Did you overhear any conversation between him and

Shaw?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Going back to when Shaw took this money and passed

it out, did he state that the money was brought by

vincent Marcello?

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. What date was this, was it a monday or a

tuesday. ..?

Vincent: It was on a weekend, because that was the only time that

I was there in New Orleans was on a weekend.

Investigator: Vincent brought the money to Shaw?

Vincent:

vincent:

Yes.

Investigator: And then that night it was passed out?

Yes.

Investigator: Okay. Could you tell us about that again, please?

Vincent:

We went out that night, and, uh, we went uptown, and he

had two envelopes on the car seat, and we got to a place

there on some street, Canal Street, or whatever street

by it, or something.

He got out, and gave the two men

you know,

one of them each and envelope of money. One

of them that I know now was Oswald, and the other guy

that I'm speaking of, he gave him the envelope and we

left and later on, Terracotti gave him some money, and

he gave that to Ruoy.

That was out by Ponchatrain

Beach. It was a place that they eat, it was like a

seafood place...: got fishing nets hanging on it, and

uh, stuff like that.

They got a roller coaster deal

right in back of it, or by it, if I'm not mistaken,

cause we were sitting there eating and that's where

they, where Shaw gave Ruby the money.

Investigator: Was this on the same night?

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, was Terracotti present when this was taking

place?

Vincent: No, sir. Terracotti left and went back to Miami. He

was there. That was on a Saturday night. He got there

that Friday night and gave Shaw the money. He gave him

some papers and a roll of film and the money, of course,

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and then he went in and took a nap, and went to sleep

or something, and he woke up about, mumm about 1:30

2:00 Saturday evening.

We brought him to the airport

and he took a plane out.

Investigator: And, so he had money from Marcello and Terracotti?

Vincent: Yes.

INvestigator: The money was delivered to Oswald and the second

man, and to Ruby?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Did any of those three men ever come to Shaw's

house?

Vincent:

One of them did, yes.

Investigator: Which one?

Vincent:

Ruby.

Investigator:

Ruby came to his house?

Vincent:

Yes.

Investigator: That same weekend?

Vincent: Not that same weekend.

He come back on another occasion,

it was just before Christmas time, he come back com-

plaining about the police really harrassing his dancers,

and you know, they really coming down on him pretty hard

in Dallas.

One of his pushers got busted and, uh, you

know, he can't get the right stuff to uh, back

the people

off, and could he talk to some people about backing him

We took him to the airport and he took a plane to

Miami, and, uh, I don't know who he really went to see

would presume he went to see Terracotti or some-

thing, he did take a place to Miami, and, uh, he come

back the next day.

Investigator: He came back to Shaw's house?

Vincent: Yes,

stuff like this, would Shaw talk to the people? Shaw

said he'd see what he could do, and stuff, and Ter.. I

mean Ruby was

really upset, he was really mad, you

know, like, he said I do all this for them and they

won't give me no kinda help and they think I'm crazy,

and stuff like

that.

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Investigator: How soon after you first met Shaw did this meeting

take place wherein the money was transferred to the

individuals?

vincent: moaths. • I'd say about, oh about a moath, maybe two

Investigator: Two months after you first met Shaw?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Did you ever know the name of this second individual

with Oswald?

Vincent: Yes, I did.

nvestigator: Can you describe him

Vincent:

He's about 5'6", 5'7", he's got black curly hair, combs

it back, uh, he's got a nice..eyes, uh, he's got a

problem with his eyes. He don't wear glasses or

nothing, he's just got a problem with his eyes. Uh,

Investigator: How does he have a problem, does he squint, or ..?

Vincent: No, sir, like you talk to him about his eyes, say some-.

thing about eyes, or something, and they'd start running

and burning, turn

real red and

stuff, his eyes were

very, very sensitive and stuff. He's a well-built guy,

he works for Marcello, he still works for Marcello to

this day.

uh, he's got a, he's got a few gunshot wounds

on him, where he's been shot, uh, he was running tele-

phones, they call them telephones, in some bookie joint

to where he'd hook up the telephones to a race track and

get the results and stuff and you could

call your bets

in to him and he'd, stuff like this.

He had a, you know,

he'd run slot machines, cigarette machines, and vending

machines, stuff like this, for Marcello.

killed a couple of people

" for Marcello, uh, heis he

s got a

deep voice, sorta like, uh, he's friendly but dangerous,

you know.

Investigator: Has he ever done any time?

Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Where?

Vincent: I think, uh, he got time in, I think he got five years

in a federal joint one time, but they overturned his

conviction and let him out, or something, on some type

They overturned his con-

o charged a de bit a in yor woned his con-

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Investigator:

Is he here, in Angola?

Vincent: Uh, yes, sir, he is.

Investigator: Do you recall, when he transferred the money to

Oswald and that second man, you stated some street off

Canal, you think uptown?

Vincent: It was not a whole block away. It was sort of a side

street, or on Canal Street,

I don't really know that

much about New Orleans, but it was, it was either on

Canal or a street leading off of Canal Street, but it

wasn't a whole block away.

Investigator: Were they walking down the street?

Vincent:

No, sir. They were parked in a parking lot, and if I

remember correctly, it was like Canal Street goes east

and west in New Orleans, and there's a drugstore on

the corner where they met at and if you follow the

street that the drugstore's on, the drugstore sits on

a corner on Canal Street, actually, it's a, the door

faces the corner on Canal Street, like that, and you

take the street going north for a couple of

blocks,

you'll end up at, I think it's the Irailway bus station,

and they were parked in a parking lot across the street,

a little ways down the block, because I remember going

into the drugstore and getting me some cigarettes while

they talked and whenever I was coming back Shaw got out

of the car, he was out of the car, he got in the car,

got the envelopes and stuff, I went on ahead an got in

the car and the two guys was out of their car.

Oswald

and

this other guy. And he handed them the envelope

and told them that was half of their payment for the

job and they took the envelopes and just tossed them in

their car and, not Oswald, but this other guy started

hollering "well, we don't want no tricks, set up jobs

or nothing else"

e188, and

and that they'd do it their way and

use what they wanted to use to shoot him with, and

stuff like that.

Shaw just said okay, and left. You

know, we got in the car and

left.

Investigator: Did you ever hear any reference to the upcoming

assassination of the President?

Vincent:

Uh, I didn't actually hear them say "gonna kill the

President", un they would talk like "the jog", "we'll

use the guns we want in the job", uh, one time Terra-

cotti was talking to Marcello, Vincent Marcello and

you know, like Marcello would say "somethings got to

be done about it, uh, him and his brother's really

about this stuff". Terracotti

gettingyeah, well! it's in the making, uh, he's gonna

be taken care of,

him and his brother." Uh..

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Investigator: Referring to the second man, or referring to who?

Vincent: This was Marcello talking to Terracotti.

Investigator: Who did you think they were referring to, when

they talk about him and his brother?

Vincent: At that time I didn't have no idea who they were really

talking about.

Now, I can I almost positively say they

were talking about President Kennedy and Robert Kennedy,

Investigator:

So this money changed hands, do you recall what

kind of car Oswald and this second man were in?

Vincent:

Yes, sir. They were in a, if I'm not mistaken now, it

was a Rambler, or a Studebaker, something like that,

it was an old beat up car.

It didn't belong to Oswald,

it belonged to the other guy. Uh, brown, if I'm not

mistaken.

It was either a Ramber or a Studebaker,

something like that, and, uh, two-door car, it was

beat up pretty well...

Investigator: When you say two to a car...?

Vincent: Two door.

Investigator: Oh, I see. Was this at night when this took place?

Vincent: It was during the evening.

Investigator: Did you all leave there and then got meet Ruby, or

had you already met Ruby?

Vincent:

No, sir, we left there, we drove out to Ponchatrain

Beach,

they call it. or whatever.

We sat down and

started to eat and Ruby come in and they started talking

like they was business partners, or whatever. Shaw gave

Ruby his part of the money, or whatever he gave him the

envelope with the money in it, and we sat down and we

ate, cause I remember Shaw started hollering

about the

crabs, he didn't like to eat crabs, and that's what I

They kept on talking.

Ruby got up and

was eatin just sat there for about 15 or 20 more minutes

and then we got up and left.

Investigator: You state this was near the roller coaster ride?

• Vincent: If I'm not mistaken, this roller coaster sits off to the

side of it, towards

the north of it.

Investigator: How long after this was it that you all went to

Miami?

Vincent: The next time I went and seen him.

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Investigator: Was this after Christmas?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Before Christmas.

Vincent: I believe it was, yes it was before Christmas, if I'm

not mistaken.

Investigator: Who went to Miami?

Vincent: Me and Oswald, I mean, uh Shaw.

Investigator: You and Shaw.

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator:

Was it on a weekend?

Vincent:

Yes.

Investigator: And, how had you got to New Orleans?

Vincent: By bus.

Investigator: By the bus.

The same way, he sent a money order?

Vincent:

Yes.

Investigator: Do you recall what day you all left?

Vincent: (pause) Thursday, or a Friday, something like that.

Investigator: How had you gotten away from home?

Vincent: The same way I always did, tell my parents that I was

going to stay with a friend for the weekend, and stuff.

Investigator gout way at to the latter part of the week then,

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Do you reall what airplane you flew down there on?

Vincent:

No, sir. Not really. Texas something, or whatever.

Some plane.

Investigator: You think it had Texas in it, though?

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Vincent: I believe it did, yes.

Investigator: Did you have to make any stopovers?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Flew straight into Miami?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Did anyone meet you at the airport?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Who was that?

Vincent:

Terracotti and some other man driving his car. They

had another man sitting in the front seat with him,

I don't know who he was.

Investigator: Where did you all go after they picked you up at

the airport?

Vincent: He took us to a motel, you know, that's where me and

Shaw stayed at. That night, they came and picked us

up and we went to Terracotti's house.

Investigator: Do you recall the name of the motel?

Vincent: No sir, I don't.

Investigator: Tell us anything about it?

Vincent:

Well, it was two stories, had one bed in it, carpet,

television, uh . . you had to go up a staircase at the

end of the building, walk all the way down to it,

get to the room. Uh, had a big picture window in it,

it was nothing spectacular. Just an ordinary motel.

Investigator: Was it a "name" motel, like a Howard Johnson's

or a Holiday Inn?

Vincent: No, sir. No.

Investigator: Did Shaw have to sign in?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Do you know if he used his real name?

Vincent: I don't know if he did or not.

Investigator: Did they have a bar or anything there?

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Vincent: No sir, they had a restaurant where you could eat and

stuff.

Investigator: Was it on the ocean, of •

.?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Was it near the airport, or near any....?

Vincent:

It was five or six miles, I would say, from the airport.

You know, something like that.

Investigator: Was it relatively close to Terracotti's house?

Vincent: Uh, about 10 miles, yes, sir. I say this was his house,

now, that's where they took us to meet him, and whenever

I asked Shaw where we were going, he'd say well we're

going to see Mr. Terracotti, I've got a business meeting

I've got to attend, and I say his house cause that's

what I was told, it was his house, and if it wasn't,

I don't really know.

Investigator: Can you describe the house and grounds?

Vincent: It was a brick home, one story. Had about four bed-

rooms in it, if I'm not mistaken. Had a pretty big

living room, kitchen. The bedroom that I went into

had double beds in it, bathroom and a swimning pool

in the back yard, two-car garage deal. Flowers and

stuff in the front yard. Just a normal brick home,

I would say.

Investigator: Nothing out of the ordinary, not a big ritzy...?

Vincent: Oh, no sir. Nothing real big and spectacular.

Investigator: Who all was present?

Vincent:

There was me, Shaw, Terracotti, the man that drove the

car, the other man

that was with him.

Investigator: This other man, did you, and the driver, did vou

ever hear their names mentioned?

Vincent: No sir, I didn't.

Investigator: Did you stay there with them?

Vincent: Not the whole time, no sir. They got the driver to take

me uptown and we went up there shopping and different

other things.

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Investigator: Do you recall any particular places you all went?

Vincent: Nothing spectacular. Just walking around shopping,

Christmas shopping, different other things, you know.

Investigator: Who paid for it?

Vincent: He did.

Investigator: Could you describe this driver for us?

Vincent:

He was kind of big, dark complected. Big, I say, about

220, 230. About six foot, six foot one, that's about

INvestigator: What about this other individual that was present.

Could you describe him?

Vincent:

He was about my size, little bit bigger.

He weighed,

I don't know, about 180, 170 pounds.

Had a tattoo on

his hand, left hand if I'm not mistaken. He smoked a

cigar, uh, brownish blond hair, something like that,

combed it straight back.

He did n't really say too

much. Kept quiet pretty much, the whole time.

Investigator: (Suggests they take a break)

(Later)

Investigator: I believe you stated that during the period of time

that you were with Shaw, he would receive phone calls

there, you would answer the phone at his house?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator i1 you

Investigator: Did the people that were calling, did they ever

tell you who they were, like I'm Mr. So and So, I want

to speak to Mr. Shaw, or where they were calling from,

anything of this nature?

Vincent:

Well, not exactly where they were calling from, uh,

the majority of the time, not all the time, they would

say, "would you tell Mr. Shaw such and such is calling

and I need to speak to him" uh, if, MI. Shaw was some-

wheres, in the bathroom, or outside, or something, they

would tell me to go get him that such and such was

calling, and stuff.

Investigator:

Do you recall the names of any of the persons

that were calling?

Vincent:

Uh, Mr. Terracotti called quite a few times, Ruby

called four or five times from Dallas. Marcello.

Investigator: Which Marcello?

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Vincent:

Carlos called a couple of times. Vincent called a

couple of times.

Uh, this other guy that was with

Oswald, he called once, from Marcello's house in

Jefferson Parish. And

they just tell me to go get him,

it was urgent and they needed to talk to him, and stuff.

Investigator: I believe you said in 1963, uh, you started stealing

some cars and selling them over

in Bomont, Texas.

many times, uh, when did you get in trouble in '63, get

picked up?

Vincent: That was September of '63.

Investigator: When did they send you to LTI?

Vincent: In September of '63.

Investigator: During the first eight months of '63, did you have

occasion to go to Shaw's ?

Vincent: Oh, yeah, I'd go once or twice a month.

Investigator: By this time, you were what, 13?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Were you ever going down there in stolen cars, or

would you always go by bus, or fly, or now?

Vincent: I'd always go by bus.

Investigator: And he'd always send you the money?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: How many times would you estimate you were there

during these first few months of '63?

Vincent: Mmmm, about 15, 16 different times.

Investigator: So you were going at least once a month, and would

you go and stay the weekend?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: On these trips down there, would Terracotti,

Vincent or Carlos Marcello, Ruby, Oswald, were any of

those persons present during your trips down there?

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Vincent: You mean during the trip itself, at his house, or .

Investigator: Right, would you come in contact with them while

you were there?

Vincent: Oh, yeah, practically every time, I'd come in contact

with one or the other, at his house or we'd be out

eating, or we'd go meet them someplace, or they'd come

meet us someplace, or they would call and tell us to

meet them at such and such place, different thinas

like this.

Investigator: Would you come in contact Oswald very much?

Vincent:

I've seen him three times.

Investigator: What were the three times?

Vincent:

One time was for the money that was passed on to him,

another time he come down complaining about the guy that

was gonna help him kill Kennedy, that they wasn't gettinc

along too well.

Investigator: Where did he come to complain?

Vincent: In New Orleans.

Investigator: Came to Shaw's house?

Vincent:

Yes.

Investigator: Did he say where he was coming from?

Vincent:

hert, not all the time. One time, he come though to

s house, the other times we met him at a different

place. Uh, he didn't actually say what he was coming

for, but him and Shaw and Vincent Marcello got in a

real, real big argument concerning the individual that

was going to help him kill the President, that they

didn't get along, he didn't trust him, and this and that.

Investigator: You mentioned there was a third time, what was the

third time?

VIncent: The third time he come down and he was complaining about

the location

was gonna happen, different

things like this, and he didn't like the set-up and stuff.

Investigator: Did Oswald ever give you any indication of what he

was doing for a living or where he was living?

Vincent: No, sir, he didn't. One time I noticed that he was com-

plaining about the FBI men following him , you know, .

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things like this, he talked, you know, to Vincent Marcello one

Sunday while I was there about taking a trip, I don't

know where, I didn't really catch the whole conversation,

that he was

going to take a trip and they wouldn't let

him. FBI kept following him and different things.

Investigator: How would he arrive?

Vincent:

One time he came down in a car and the other two times

he flew down.

Investigator: Would you all pick him up at the airport?

Vincent:

Yes.

Well, one time, no. We never did pick him up at

the airport. He would rent a car, or whateyer, He was

always in a car.

One time he was in this other guy's

car, Rambler or Studebaker, whatever it was, and ther

the next time he was in a different car that whenever

we seen him he was complaining about the guy and stuff

like this.

Investigator: When you got in trouble on these stolen cars,

where did they pick you up?

Vincent: In Sulfa.

Investigator: Were you in a stolen car then?

Vincent:

No sir, I was at a service station buying some

cigarettes.

Investigator: What, had they conducted an investigation and

identified you as being responsible for stolen cars

or ..?

Vincent:

Well, we didn't actually get busted for the car theft

• itself, in that, I didn't get busted for car theft

and stealing the cars and stuff until 1975, actually.

uh, in 1965, in 1963, me and another boy got busted

for participating in

went home and told his parents and they sent

Investigator: Who was the other boy?

Vincent: I don't really know his name?

Investigator: What did they do, file charges on you?

Vincent: His father did, yeah, against me and my

Investigator: Okay, who was your

?

Vincent: Charles Bertram.

Investigator: Charles Bertram?

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Vincent: Yes

Investigator: Did Bertram ever go to Shaw's with you?

Vincent:

No, sir.

Investigator: Did he ever know anything about Shaw?

Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Did anybody in Sulfa know about Shaw?

Vincent: Not that I know of, no.

Investigator: You were taking these cars over to Bomont, Texas?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Who were you selling them to over there?

Vincent:

To a used car dealer in Bomont, Texas.

Investigator: Do you recall his name?

Vincent: No, sir. That's all I'd do was take them there at

night time and park them. ..

Investigator: How would you be paid?

Vincent:

They'd just send me the money, by mail.

Invesitgator: It would come to you through the mail.

Vincent: Every car I'd get, they'a give me a hundred dollars:

Investigator: Who set you up in it?

Vincent: Stealing the cars and everything else? This come

through with Shaw and his friends and different other

things, I mean, he introduced me to this guy. Shaw

really didn't know about me stealing the cars and

that, but he introduced me to some people and that led

to this and pretty soon I was stealing cars.

Investigator: Do you recall the used car dealership?

Vincent: No, sir, I don't.

Investigator: You stated that at the time Kennedy was killed, you

were in LTI.

Vincent: Yes

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Investigator: Approximately how long after the assassination

was it that you escaped?

Vincent: MMmmmm, I'd say about, 3 or 4 months.

Investigator:

Three or four months thereafter? So this would

have been into '64 then?

Vincent: Right.

Investigator: Now you escaped, where did you go?

Vincent: I went to New Orleans to see Mr. Shaw, I stayed there

for awhile. He kept on talking, if I'd turn myself ir

he'd get me out, different other things, and I didn't

want to go back. So, I left, stole a car in New Orleans,

went back to Sulfa where I got busted and they sent me

back to ITI.

Investigator: How did they bust you there, just as an

escapee

or did they catch you in a stolen car?

Vincent: They caught me in a stolen car.

Investigator: In a stolen car. Who caught you?

Vincent: The Sulfa City police. No. I take that back. It was a

policeman from Texas, coming from Lake Charles, going

back to Texas. He'd just got finished going to a con-

vention or some sort of thing and I was going towards

Vinton (sp) Louisiana, and me being so young and really

didn't know how to drive that well, I was sagging all

over the road and he pulled me over and that whenever

I got busted.

Investigator: And he turned you over to, uh . ..?

Vincent: Sulfa City Police.

Investigator: How long were you out?

Vincent: On escape? Uh, let' see... about two days, three days.

Investigator: Two to three days. During that period of time you

were in New Orleans?

vincent:. About, I got there about, I'a say about 8:0 left " that

morning. I stayed until that night, then I

Investigator: How did you get there?

Vincent: New Orleans? I stole a car in Monroe, Louisiana, at the

bowling alley and drove it to New Orleans.

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Investigator:

You in ITI at Monroe?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: I believe you stated that when you arrived there,

there was a second, the second man who had been with

Oswald, was present?

Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Was he already there when you got there? Did he

appear to be staying there?

Vincent: No, sir, he was there talking to Shaw and stuff, you

know, he was complaining about Oswald getting killed,

and, you know, different other things, and that he

told him just to lay low, leave the state, leave the

country if possible, different other things.

For him

to see his boss, and just a normal conversation about

him trying to get away.

Investigator: Did, at any time while you were there, did they

discuss

the assassination of the President?

Vincent:

He talked a little bit about, he was saying he didn't

know if he had really hit him or not, and that he was

off, you know, and uh, he was scared, and, uh, that he

didn't think nobody seen him, you know, jump over the

fence and different other things, he said he got rid of

the gun going to Houston, and stuff, nothing really

about the President himself, he was

just talking about

his gettaway mostly.

Investigator: Did he say anything about how he fired his shots?

Vincent: Not actually, no, you know, that he shot once from what

he said, from what I understood, he did shoot one time.

Investigator: Did he think he hit anybody?

Vincent:

He said that he thought that he'd missed him, speaking

of the President. He didn't really say if he'd hit

anybody or not.

He mentioned Connally's name, that

Connally got in his way, or something like that.

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Investigator: What did he say about Connally?

Vincent: He said Connally was hit, but that he didn't know if

he hit him or not, and he didn't know if he actually

hit the President or not, cause Connally got in his way.

Cause whenever Connally was shot, he said, after Con-

nally was shot, Connally fell forward in the path of

him and the President, to where it made it difficult for

him to shoot, I guess, or whatever.

Investigator: Did he give any indication of what type of weapon

he was using?

Vincent:

A rifle of some type, I don't really know what make of

nothing else.

Investigator: And, where did he say he was?

Vincent:

Where he said he was? He was in between the tree, a

tree, and a wooden fence by the building, away from the

building that Oswald was in. After he shot, he jumped

over the fence and got into a car that somebody was

waiting in for him and they left and went to Houston.

Investigator: Did he say who was driving the car?

Vincent: No sir, he didn't.

Investigator: Do you have any idea who was driving the car?

Vincent: I wouldn't have no slightest idea.

Investigator: Did he give you any indication who he met with in

Houston, or how he got rid of the gun?

Vincent: No sir, he didn't.

Investigator: How was it that they happened to talk about this as

openly as they did in front of you?

Vincent:

Well, they actually didn't talk all that openly in front

of me because, like, I'd be in the bedroom, or I'd be in

the kitchen, or something, and I could just, you could

say, eavesdrop on them, because, like I said, you know,

I was, they'd call it getting involved, or whatever:

with Shaw. You could say I cared for him a little bit.

I know he cared for me.. And, uh, I was more or less,

• red cours

I really was young, too young, to really know what

was really going on, but I was curious, you could say,

for being that young, just sneaking around, trying to

listen to what they were saying.

Investigator: I believe you mentioned that Terracotti allegedly

went to Cuba?

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Vincent: He went somewheres, I'd said Cuba, I don't really know

where he went.

He

wheres around there, un

left, it was June, May, June, some-

Investigator: This was before the shooting?

Vincent:

Yes sir, He left and I don't really know where he went.

I know that Ruby was looking for him and that's how I

found out that he took a trip, cause Ruby was complaining

about how he couldn't get in touch with Terracotti

because he was out of the country and stuff.

Investigator: At any time during these visits you would make to

Shaw's house, was there ever any mention made of Shaw,

Terracotti, Cella (sp) Oswald, any of them taking a trip

on a boat?

Vincent: No sir, not that I know of.

Investigati, No mention of going on a boat of any kind, or a

Vincent: No sir.

Investigator: On how many occasions did you see these FBI agents?

Vincent: Just once.

Investigator: Just one time? Did it appear to you that they were

assisting Shaw, or were they there questioning Shaw?

Vincent:

I'd say that they were assisting him, because they kept

on telling to get the information that they needed, and

they brought him some paper work, folder, and different

other things, telling him to take care of the business

they way they supposed to or else, and uh, things like

this, you know, that nature.

Investigator: How long after you were picked up that second time

in the stolen car that you got in New Orleans, was it

that you went to Quincy.

Vincent:

Uh, let's see, that was in '65, I went to Quincy in '66,

in May, I believe, May 12 of '66.

Investigator: So this is couple or three years after you had

first met Shaw. Had you and Shaw continued your rela-

tionship over these years?

Vincent:

Right. We would write to each other and he would send

me things and different other things. Whenever I would

run off or after I got out in '65, I went back to see

him a couple of times. Nothing really big but I went

back, I didn't really see nobody or talk to nobody, but

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we kept out relationship up until about '67, '68,

something like that.

Investigator: I believe you said that Shaw attempted to get you

out of Deguincy?

Vincent:

Right.

He told me that he was

going to get me out, and

which I believed he did get me out, cause I stayed

exactly

one year like he told me I would.

I remember the Warden

called me in his office and told me that he would like to

send me home for a Christmas visit, and things, but there

wasn't nowheres for me to go, you know, to stay with

anybody, at that, you know, me and my parents we really

don't get along all that well, and I tried to talk him

into sending me to New Orleans to Mr. Shaw's house, and

they wouldn't let me cause he wasn't a relative or

Investigator: Did you mention Shaw by name?

Vincent: Right, and, uh . .

Investigator: Who was the warden?

Vincent: I think there was Cormyay (sp) right, Mr. Cormyay was

warden.

Investigator: This was at Dequincy?

Vincent:

Right, and, uh, they denied, the judge and them wouldn't

let me go home for à visit and stuff.

(Investigator changes tape)

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Investigator:

So they denied your request to visit with

....

Mr. Vincent: Right. They wouldn't let me go home or

visit or nothing. It wasn't that they denied my request

to go home for Christmas directly to him or anything.

They just denied me going home at all because I said

I didn't have nowheres to go for Christmas furlow. so.

I didn't go. You know I asked them to let me go but they

wouldn't let me.

Investigator: How long did you and

maintain your

contact'with each other?

Mr. Vincent: 'Till after I got out of the quincey in

'67. I just quit going down there any everything. He

would keep calling and stuff but I wouldn't go back down.

Investigator: What caused the breakup in the relationship?

Mr. Vincent: I guess staying away from him for so long.

You know. I don't really know. I just lost interest.

Investigator: Did you ever have any contact with him

during the period of time that he was on trial by former

District Attorney Garrison?

Mr. Vincent: Yes sir. I was. contacted by him.

Investigator: By Shaw?

Mr. Vincent: By Shaw and Mr. Vincent Marcello. Telling

me to just be cool and don't say nothing. That they don't

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have nothing on Shaw concerning the conspiracy of anything

else and that they got something working and they were

going to get me out and they promised me all kinds of things

just to keep quiet.

Investigator: Where were you at the time?

Mr. Vincent: I was locked up.

Investigator: Where?

Mr. Vincent: Up here.

Investigator: Here at Angola?

Mr. Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: And they would call you here at Angola?

Mr. Vincent: They wouldn't realy call here like whenever

I first got the phonecall I was in jail in Lake Charles

waiting to come here.

Investigator: How would you get to a telephone?

Mr. Vincent: They would bring me down. They would call

it an emergency phonecall and I got one phonecall from

him while I was here and as a matter of fact, right after

I got finished talking to him they locked me up in a cell

block, you know, because I was running my head to a premium

and said I'd like to run off from here and never come back,

you know, that I hated this place, so they locked me up

for security reasons.

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Investigator: You mentioned that one thing that you

were fearful of here being here in Angola was the fact

that there were I believe you said three men who were

associates of Carlos Marcello who are now here at Angola

and seemingly seem to run the show. Is that correct?

Mr. Vincent: That is correct.

Investigator: Who are they?

Mr. Vincent: One of them is Peter Mule, Kirksey McCard

Nix, JI., and John Falser.

Investigator: What are they here for?

Mr. Vincent: They were the ones that got time for the

Carso killing..

Investigator: Where did that happen?

Mr. Vincent: In New Orleans.

Investigator: Was it a hit?

Mr. Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And they're now here and they pretty well

run their own show.

Mr. Vincent: Yes.

Investigator: Have you ever had any contact with the

three of them?

Mr. Vincent: I don't really talk to John Falser too nuch.

He has been telling on a lot of people since he's been here

so Pete. and Jr. cut him loose and they don't talk to him

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no more. I stay in the dormatory in Oak Four in the main

prison for a year with Pete and JI. I come through AU

with Pete and we're pretty - or may I say we used to be

pretty close 'till the incident with the gun and everything

else come about.

Investigator: Were they the three that were involved with

the gun?

Mr. Vincent: Yes, sir. I was the one that brought the

gun into the prison and gave it to Pete Mule and from there

he done whatever he done with it. I don't really know,

but he gave it or sold it to somebody.

Investigator:

Let me check this tape and make sure it is...

O.K. You brought a gun in for them?

Mr. Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Where did you bring it in from?

MI. Vincent: The rodeo grounds.

Investigator: O.K. Was it dropped there for you to pick

up?

Mr. Vincent: Yes, sir. A lady brought it up here and left

it in the bleachers for us.

Investigator: O.K. And you picked it up and took it to

them and then subsequently decided that you should advise

the prison authorities of...

Mr. Vincent: I advised them of it. I even tried to help

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them find it. I went and shook down the boiler room with

the warden and everything else. I sat down and talked to

them for about two weeks. I revealed all the drug traffic

that is taking place in here, who's bringing it, who is

dealing drugs up here, who's running the strong-arm operations

up here, who's doing the killings for such and such people

and I told them everything I knew. That's all that happened.

They didn't do nothing about it. They turned around and

locked me up in Camp Jay and left me at Camp Jay for nine

months and didn't do nothing about the rest.

Investigator: Did they ever find the gun?

Mr. Vincent: No sir. They never did really look for it.

Investigator: You stated that you were implicated along

with some of Marcello's people in some possible murders?

Mr. Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Is it involved this Carso thing?

Mr. Vincent: That's one of them.

Investigator: One of them. Would you care to tell us about

any of the others?

Mr. Vincent: Well one guy this happened right outside of

Dallas in Ft. Worth. A guy from there come down and took

a girl from one of Vincent Marcello's places. She was

a prostitute. So he sent me and Mule - Pete Mule - to

Ft. Worth to get the guy and get the girl back and we got

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down there and Pete had a shootout with a guy at the

trailer park. He was behind some trash cans and they

had a racoon in the trash can eating at night and the

guy drove up and there were lights coming over the trash

can as the coon jumped out of the can and scared the coon.

The dude snapped. He seen Pete. Pete shot the dude.

Investigator: Did he kill him?

Mr. Vincent: We put him in the car in the trunk and drove

by Jasper, Texas, I believe it was. Got out and walked out

to a field and dug a hole out there and threw the guy in

it and poured a sack of lime over him and buried him alive.

Investigator: Was the body ever found?

Mr. Vincent: Not that I know of.

Investigator: Do you recall the name of the fellow.

Mr. Vincent: No sir. It was just a job.

Investigator: Do you think you could find the body?

Mr. Vincent: If it's still there. Yeh. I believe I could.

Investigator: Was it off

a main highway.

Mr. Vincent: It was off a highway going from Ft. Worth/Dallas

to Jasper, Texas. You know, we got right outside of Jasper

and we turned off on a road and went out in the woods out

there and buried him.

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Investigator: About what time did this occur. In terms

of month and year?

Mr. Vincent: You mean when did it happen?

Investigator: Yeh.

Mr. Vincent: This was in 1970. I think it was July.

It was right after I got out of here my first time.

About March - no it was about July of '70, something like

that.

Investigator: How was it that you came to be connected

with those guys?

Mr. Vincent: Well, I met them whenever I was going back

and forth to Clay Shaw's house.

Investigator: You came in contact with them then and just

kept the relationship going?

Mr. Vincent: Well, I knew sooner of later that they would

want to know who the other guy is that shot kennedy and

I know in order for you all to help me to get this protection

and possibly noved away from here for my safety and to--

you all can't do nothing without this man. The second man

was Peter Mule that was implicated in the killing.

Investigator: He was the man and came in and described

being on the hill between the fence and the ..

Mr. Vincent:

Right.

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Investigator: As you said. We're going to have to check

it out. Because you've been around long enough and

we've been shoot with you and I think you've been shooting

straight with us. We're going to have to check it out

so you know anything that comes to mind - any little details

or anything. That's the reason we go over a lot of this

stuff more than once. Just so we can get the little details

that we can check and then they come back, you know, yeh -

this happened, and this happened and this happened and

we're in good shape. Were there any other murders that you

were aware of?

Mr. Vincent: Yeh. There was a murder that happened in

Mississippi. A guy down there, they called him Big Red.

Got in contact with Pete and there were some people that

robbed a polker game that he was running there in Mississippi.

Investigator: What town?

Mr. Vincent: Biloxi, I believe it was, if I'm not mistaken.

And we went and got the guy killed. Buried him.

Investigator: And Big Red was running the game?

Mr. Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And what did he do. Just call on Mule

to come and take care of the problem for him.

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Mr. Vincent: Well. He paid us. Don't think that all

we really do was drive the car. There was only two

people that I have killed on a contract basis. One of them

was not even implicated with these people or they didn't

really know nothing about and the other killing was a contract

killing because he called up on Pete and told about his

telephones and stuff and got his telephones and stuff.

Investigator: This one occurred in Mississippi. Where did

you all have to go to get the fellow.

Mr. Vincent: We went into Mississippi.

Investigator: Do you recall where?

Mr. Vincent: Biloxi.

Investigator: Did you have to go to his house or how...

Mr. Vincent: No sir. We got him in a lounge. He was in

a lounge with a lady and we got him there when he was

coming out. We threw down on him and put him in the car,

tied him up any everything. Drove him out and it was

I don't know it was about fifteen miles outside of Biloxi

they got some swamps or something out there because I

remember we had to walk in mud and water and stuff to get

to dry land to bury him and stuff. Pete shot him on the

way for us to go bury him there in the back seat and we

took him and buried him and left and got rid of the car.

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Investigator: Just you and Pete?

Mr. Vincent:

Right.

Investigator: Were there any other murders that you were

implicated in while you were running for these guys?

Mr. Vincent: "No sir. Like they wanted me to go with them

in the Carso killing and I wouldn't go because I had another

job to do in Lake Charles that I knew to take care of at

that time.

Investigator: You said you were involved in two. One of

them I assume is the one that you told us about yesterday.

Mr. Vincent: Yes, sir.

Investigator: O.K. We'll get into that later. What was

the other one?

Mr. Vincent: That's the one in Mississippi.

Investigator: O.R. The fellow that had ripped Mule off

that told where his phones were. ....:.

Mr. Vincent: He didn't rip him off. He's the one that

Red called and killed and stuff.

Investigator: When was the last time you had any contact

with anyone associated with the Marcello family?

Mr. Vincent: I talk to Pete about once a week. I'll meet

him at the hospital or here in the A building or something

and we'll talk and stuff you know about different other

things. I remember one time we were sitting in the dining

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hall and a dietitian, I don't know his name, black headed

guy wears glasses come up and started talking to me and

Pete and he told Pete he says you know Carlos heard that

you were about to get out and he put a stop to it because

he don't want you out and Pete got really mad about it.

You know like wanted to know why Carlos Marcello blocked

him from getting out and we talk about a lot of things

whenever we were in the dormatory about how they were

supposed to be cracking down on this so-called Dixie Mafia

stuff and this and that that they were implicated or running

the Dixie Mafia which is not really true. The past, you

know. Robberies and burglaries and other things that have

been happening.

Investigator: Let's get back to Clay Shaw for a few minutes.

You say that you have written him. Do you recall what

his address was?

Mr. Vincent: No sir. I don't.

Investigator: Do you recall what street his house was on?

Mr. Vincent: No, sir.

Investigator: Could you describe his house for us?

Mr. Vincent: At that time, it was a one-story brick home,

three bedrooms, kitchen, living room and den, two-car

garage trees and a yara.

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Investigator: Could you tell us the color of the

interior? About the bedrooms, the bathrooms?

Mr. Vincent: Just different colors. You know, ordinary

colors that would be in a house, blue and things like this.

I know his room was red, solid red, except the walls that

were white and he wouldn't let too many people go in the

room, like I've been in it one or two times, but besides

that, he wouldn't let anybody go in it. I don't know

what was in it or why but he wouldn't let anybody go in it.

Investigator: Did you ever by chance know his phone number?

MX. Vincent: I knew it but I don't recall.

Investigator: And you don't recall anything about his

house where it was located.

Mr. Vincent: Now I'm saying this was his house because

this is where I would stay with him and everything else.

It was about il blocks from the beach or whatever it was

out there. It was in a pretty high-class neighborhood.

Investigator: About 1l blocks from the lake shore was it?

Mr. Vincent: Something like that. I say the lake shore

and presume that's what it was.

Investigator: Did he live on a corner or the middle of the

street?

Mr. Vincent: He lived I think it was about three houses

down from the corner.

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Investigator: Did you ever go there on your own. Did

you drive to his house.

Mr. Vincent: He'd always come and pick me up.

Investigator: What about the time when you had escaped

from LII? Did you drive yourself there that time?

Mr. Vincent: Right.

Investigator: Can you recall approximately how you got

there?

MI. Vincent: To tell you the truth, no. I remember going

over a big bridge coming off of the - it's about I'd say

two blocks from Bourbon Street or whatever, I'd say a big

bridge going over the Mississippi coming in from I guess

it's Jefferson Parish.

Investigator: Do you think you could find your way back

to the house?

Mr. Vincent: I'm not certain sir. I could sure give it

a try. I couldn't guarantee nothing. It's been quite

a while now.

Investigator: Al, do you have any questions along this

line?

: No.

Investigator: Is there anything else that you can think

of in regard to Clay Shaw and the Kennedy assassination

that you haven't gone into up to this point, that you'd

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like to go into with us?

MI. Vincent: No sir, not that I can think of.

Investigator: At this time we'll end this side A of

tape 2.

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