Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
From: ESPINOSA, VICTOR
Document date: 6/7/78
Document type: DEPOSITION

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/8/201

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER:

180-10078-10271

RECORD SERIES:

NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 013151

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

HSCA

FROM:

ESPINOSA, VICTOR

TO :

TITLE :

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

06/07/1978

123

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

BAY OF PIGS

PRO-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

ESPIHOSA, VICTOR

GUEVARA, CHE

CIA

DOCUMENT TYPE :

DEPOSITION

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: 1A; 1B

CURRENT STATUS : Redact

DATE OF' LAST REVIEW:

12/17/1996

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

Index summary & copies attached. Box 230.

Released under the John

F. Kennedy

Assassination Records

Collection Act of 1992

(44 USC 2107 Notel.

Case:NU 53080 Date:

05-30-2017

V9.1

HW 53080

DocId: 32248213

Page 1

1

---

## Page 2

MEMORANDUM

TO:

FROM:

G. Robert Blakey

Chief Counsel

S. Jonathan Blackmer

Staff Counsel,

JEK

June 28, 1978

Index of Victor Espinosa Deposition

DATE:

RE :

Aleman, Jose

p.

101

Alliegro, Anselmo

p. 52

American Embassy, Havana pp. 32, 33

Amores, Acelo Pedro

P. 13

Artime,

Manuel

40,

82, 83, 84, 85

Banister, Guy

p. 27

Batista:

, pp. 4, 7,:9, 46,.47, 48, 50, 55

Bay of Pigs

• pp. 14, 15,

35,36,38,42,58,60,

71,89,90

Bayo, Eddie aka Eduardo Perez

pp. 41, 42

Bender, Frank

p. 32

Benton,

pp. 18, 19, 23, 93

Bernardino, Frank

p. 14

Blanco, Alberto

op. 67, 68, 72, 76, 77, 78

3ongo, Raphael Garcia pp. 103, 104, 105

Bosch,

Dr. Orlando

p. 86

Callejas

P. 9

p. 50

Carbo, Pedro

Carol, Alphonzo

p. 41

Castro, Fidel

pp. 4, 6,7,9, 22, 33, 36, 37, 42,.

46, 47,

51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57,59,.60;

62, 64,78, 79, 81, 83, 84, 96, 107,

108, 109

Castro,

Raul

Chaumon, Porton

C.I.A.

p. 55

p. 5

pp. 10, 11, 15, 17, 33, 34, 35, 37, 38,

39,41,63,

65,

66, 67, 70, 71,74,

75,

76, 78, 81, 82, 83, 85, 86, 93, 103

Coscaya, General Bayo p. 42

44,46; 47,

Rolando

pp. 5,

6, 32,

40, 42, 43,

58,

Cubela,

48,

49 ,

50, 52,

53,

54, 55,

56,

57,

59,

60, 62, 63,

64,

65, 66,

68, 71,11,

78, 79,80, 83,

84, 86, 102

Customs, U.S.

pp. 17,

90

DRE

p. 30

Echeverria, Jose Antonio pp. 5, 43, 44, 46, 47, 48, 50

F.B.I.

pp. 17, 27,28, 29,70,71,72,94

HW 53080

Doc1d:32248213 Page 2

---

## Page 3

Index of Victor Espinosa Deposition

Page 2.

Ferrie, David

Gene, John Koch

Gill, Fred

p. 27

p. 13

p. 28

Gonzalez, Alfred

Guevara, Che

pp. 54,

55

Hemming, Gerald Patrick

p.

34

Hernandez, Carlos

pp. 13, 18, 23, 24, 28, 30, 84

Hunt, Howard

p. 11

Irco,

Colonel Blanco pp. 47,

48, 49

Javitis, Senator

p.

73

Gener, Raphael

p. 100

Jiminez, Mario

pp. 10, 14

Jiminez, Miquel Alvarez

PP •

13, 14, 18, 20, 23, 93

Lansky, Meyer

p. 97

Lanz,

Pedro Diaz

pp. 7,

8

Lauchli, Rich Albert pp.

24, 25

Lobo, Julio

pp. 86, 87

Machado, FNU (aka Machaletto)

pp. 6, 48

Machin, ENU

p. 48

Marcello, Carlos

p. 28

McLaney,

Mike

0p. 9, 10, 18, 19, 21, 24,

28, 29, 32,

76, 91, 92, 93, 95, 96, 97, 106

McLaney, William

Menoyo

pp. 54, 55 22, 26-

Morales, Ricardo Nauarette p. 87

Morgan, William

p. 54

Nacional, Hotel

pp. 9, 95, 107, 108

Naranjo

p.

6

Nundez, Calcie

p. 14

Paris Cuban Consulate p. 62, 63, 67

Phillips, David

p. 33

Pontchartrain, Lake (Bombing Raid) pp. 23, 26, 28, 91, 92

Popich, Nick

p. 28

Pujol, Jorge Alonzo p. 101

Raminda

p. 6

•Rodriquez, Nutosa

pp. 48, 49

Rothman, "Cappy"

pp.

31,

97,99

Rothman, Norman

pp. 31, 32,

98,

99,

101

Robreno, George (Jorge) pp. 63, 68, 75, 77,

78,

82, 83, 84, 86,

(El Maga)

Salvat, Manuel

p. 30

Shell Oil Refinery, Havana

pp. 20, 21

Siva, ENU

p. 41

Smith, Jose

p. 7

Snow, Larry

p. 95

Soccaras, Carlos Prio

p.

46

State Department

p. 74

Sturgis, Frank

pp. 8,

33, 89

Taberinalla, FNU

p.

49

(Army Chief under Batista)

HH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 3

---

## Page 4

Index of Victor Espinosa Deposition

Page 3.

Tepedino, Carlos

p. 33

Trafficante, Santo

pp. 96,

97,

104, 105

Trasancos

pp. 68,

69,

80

Ugarte, FNU

p. 15

-Usalase,

FNU

p. 49

: Vallejo, Colonel

P. 13

Vasquez, Antonio

Veciana, Antonio

Soto

p. 23

p. 88

Westbrook, Joe

pp. 6, 49

Whitehouse, Teddy

Pp. 100, 101

Williamson

(CIA-Madrid) p. 66

NY :53080 - DoeId: 32218213

Page 4

---

## Page 5

MEMORANDUM

SUMMARY OF DEPOSITION

01315/

TO :

FROM:

DATE:

RE:

G. Robert Blakey, Chief Counsel

S. Jonathan Blackmer, Staff Counsel, JFK

S/СB

July 18, 1978

Summary of Victor Espinosa Deposition Taken June 7,

1978 in Washington, D. C.

I.

Background: Association with the Revolutionary.

Council of the University of Havana, 1954-1959.

Victor Dominador Espinosa Hernandez was born to a

wealthy, landholding family in Cuba. In 1954, he entered

the University of Havana, joining two of his childhood

friends Jose Antonio Echeverria and Rolando Cubela in the

student political movement. Cubela and Echeverria, some-

what older than Espinosa, were at the time already firmly

established as the leaders of the Revolutionary Council of

the University of Havana, primarily directing their efforts

against the Batista regime.

Numerous clashes with the

police and general inattentiveness to studies prompted

Espinosa's father to send Espinosa to Louisiana State

University in Baton Rouge in 1955. (pp. 3-6, 43-47)

When Espinosa became eighteen years of age in ap-

proximately 1956, he left L.S.U. and returned to Cuba to

manage the ranch-estate left to him by

the death of his

grandfather.

Upon

his return, his political fervor some-

what tempered, Espinosa was content to go about his business,

and spend long weekends in Havana once a month pursuing less

idealistic endeavors such as gambling and women.. (p. 47)

During one of these sojourns in Havana, Espinosa received

a

telephone call from Cubela advising him that Echeverria had

just returned from

a meeting in Mexico with Castro, and

wanted to assemble the "old" group, as Castro wanted them

to step up their activities against Batista.

As a result of the meeting, action groups were

formed under the direction of Cubela and Echeverria. Each

group consisting of approximately four men was given the

task of assassinating a designated high ranking official of

the Batista Government.

Among the targets were Blanco Irco,

head of military intelligence;

Taberinalla, head of the

army; Usalace, chief of police. (pp. 47, 48, 49, 50)

HH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 5

---

## Page 6

Summary of Deposition

Victor Espinosa

Page Two

Espinosa's group, with Cubela and Pedro Carbo, was

immediately successful, killing Blanco Irco within the

week of their assignment.

Although not suspected at

first, Cubela nevertheless fled to Miami, while Espinosa,

the youngest and least suspect, remained

in Cuba.

Cubela

eventually returned in 1957, and fought Batista from the

Sierra Maestra Mountains, independently of Castro. (pp. 51, 52)

Thus by late 1957, there were three groups fighting

Batista: Castro's group in Oriente Province, William

Morgan's group and Cubela's group.. Castro wanted control

over all the groups, and having Morgan under control, sent

Che Guevara to consolidate the other "fronts". Guevara's

mission was first to assassinate Rolando Menoyo, then Cubela.

By October of 1958, Guevara had taken Menoyo and Cubela into

custody, but released them after four days. (pp. 54, 55)

When Batista abdicated in January of 1959, Castro's

group was

the only one left intact as the others had been

decimated by fighting, especially Cubela's after an assault

on the Presidential Palace. As Espinosa described the scene,

"no one knew what to do; we were fighting a war and the war

was over; we didn;t have any ambition of power. Our aim was

to get the guy (Batista), when these people's (Castro's) aims

were very well planned for far ahead."

(p. 56)

Thus by late 1959, with Castro in power, Espinosa,

seeing

the student movement ending, left for the United States

and exile, (p. 58) (especially after Espinosa had been ar-

rested by Castro for attempting to smuggle the entire contents

of an army arsenal to Panama and was released only after

Cubela's intervention).

(pp. 57-59)

II.

Espinosa's Relationship with Mike MCLaney

A. 1954-1959

Espinosa often frequented the gambling casinos in

Havana while a student at the University of Havana.

Through

a social friend, FNU Callejas, who was the manager of the

Hotel Nacional,

Espinosa was

introduced to Bil1 McLaney,

brother of Mike, and then through Bill,. to

Mike.

Their

relationship, according to Espinosa, was purely social during

the remainder of their years in Cuba, not involving any

clandestine activities directed at either Batista or Castro.

Espinosa is not aware of any activities of that nature by

either of the McLaneys during this time.

(pp. 9, 10)

IT 53080 DacId:32218213 Paqe 6

---

## Page 7

Summary of Deposition

Victor Espinosa

Page Three

B. 1959-1963

Under

the sponsorship of McLaney, Espinosa left Cuba

in 1959

for Miami.

While he may have initially stayed at

McLaney's

home, he soon began

living with his family in

Miami.

It is not known why Espinosa moved to New York in

1960, but his return to Miami later in 1960 was occasioned

by his desire to join his former colleagues in training for

the Bay of Pigs invasion. (pp. 9-12)

Espinosa left the "employ" of the CIA in August of

1961* (See Section III, P. 4); he returned to Miami.

In

Juné of 1963 Espinosa was detained by FBI and Customs agents

in Miami for an attempted bombing raid on Cuba. According

to Espinosa, McLaney sponsored Espinosa and a few of his

associates in a plan to bomb the Shell Oil refineries in

Havana.

In this group were Sam Benton, Carlos Hernandez

Sanchez, John Koch Gene, Acleo Pedrosa Amores, Miguel Al-

varez and Richard Albert Lauchli.

Benton procured an air-

plane, Espinosa the explosives from Lauchli, and McLaney

supplied the financing.

(pp. 16-22) An informant within

the group alerted the FBI which was waiting with Customs

officials as the group rendezvoused for the mission.

When

this mission failed, another one was immediately put into

operation.

The oil refineries were again the targets, but

the plan

was to leave from

a deserted airstrip in the

vicinity of Lake Ponchartrain, Louisiana, using either a

B-25 or

a B-26 bomber, fully operational.

Again Espinosa

planned the operation and secured the explosives through

Lauchli. This time, McLaney was to provide the airplane,

and only inform the

group of its location once the bombs

were ready for loading.

(pp. 23-29, 91, 92)

As was the case for the June 15th mission, this one

was also a failure.

One

member of the group was recalled

to Miami due to a death in the family, the remaining members,

feeling this would breach their security, disbanded, re-

turning to Miami with Espinosa going to New York to report

to Mike McLaney.

On July 31, 1963, the FBI discovered the

cache of explosives to be used on the mission at a farm house

at Lake Ponchartrain owned by Mike McLaney's brother Bill,

Espinosa remained in New York until approximately

1967, when he moved to France.

He remained there until 1969,

53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 7

---

## Page 8

Summary of Deposition

Victor Espinosa

Page Four

then went into business in Spain and England. He stated he

has had no contact with McLaney since 1965, his last anti-

Castro involvement with McLaney being the aborted July 1963

raid on the oil refineries in Havana. (p. 29)

III.

Espinosa's Contact With the CIA

During his anti-batista activity in Cuba from 1954

through 1959, Espinosa was aware that certain persons in his

"group" had some contact with the American Embassy in Havana,

and that a number of individuals working in Castro's or-

ganization had similar contacts with the CIA. Espinosa had

no contact with the CIA until he reached Miami in 1959 and

joined the Bay of Pigs training force.

Espinosa was

made

aware of training being conducted

to invade Cuba upon his arrival. He left word with friends

to keep him informed and went to New York to work. A short

while later he was contacted, and immediately returned to

enlist.

Espinosa was sent to Guatemala in June or July of

1960 to begin the training. (pp. 10, 11)

In Guatemala and later Panama and New Orleans,

Espinosa was trained in conventional military warfare,

guerrilla warfare, explosives and clandestine operations.

As a result of this training, Espinosa did partici-

pate in various raids into Cuba, some of which were aimed

at the destruction of military targets, others with:the

purpose of gathering information and bringing individuals

out. These activities began before the Bay of Pigs invasion

and continued through the following summer of 1961.

(pp.

14-16) *It should be noted that Espinosa stated that he

was able to obtain from a friend in the government his file

which details each of these operations and the participants;

however, in our review of files on Espinosa, we find records

showing

that Espinosa was terminated from involvement in

March of 1961 and taken off the payroll.)

IV.

Espinosa's Involvement With the AMLASH Operation

Espinosa's activities with the CIA ceased as of late

summer 1961. (p. 62)

In approximately June of 1965, while

NH 53080

Doo1d:32246213 Page 8

---

## Page 9

Summary of Deposition

Victor Espinosa

Page Five

on a pleasure excursion to Paris from his residence in

New York, Espinósa contacted an old acquaintance, Jose

Trasancos

who was at the time working for the Cuban

Consulate in Paris, having been in a position there since

approximately 1962 or 1963.

Trasancos

spoke of having seen Cubela in Paris and

"something was going on...Rolando (Cubela) is involved with

the CIA and there is something happening." (p. 63) Tras-

ancos wanted Espinosa to get the complete story from

George Robreno, a former member of the Student Revolu-

tionary Movement in Havana, and long-time friend of

Cubela. Robreno at one time had been with the Castro

government as the head of the revolutionary tribunals which

out many death sentences.

(p. 64) Originally,

Espinosa intended to meet with Robreno in Madrid, but after

encountering difficulties obtaining a visa, was forced at

his

own

expense to send Robreno an airline ticket for

Paris.

(p. 65)

In Paris, Robreno told Espinosa that Cubela had been

talking

with certain CIA people about an uprising in Cuba

against Castro that was to be led by Cubela and others of-

ficials in the government and the army.

Cubela had been in

contact with an individual named williamson who was the

head of the CIA in Spain.

Cubela was most concerned about

Williamson's trustworthiness, expressing as a basis, Wil-

liamson's apparent alcoholism and the fact that he had had

as a mistress a Cuban female who had taken certain important

documents from Williamson's apartment to Castro.

had wanted

his old associate Espinosa to contact his "CIA

colleagues", still believing Espinosa was with the CIA.

Espinosa was to explain Cubela's position to them viz-a-viz

Cubela's contact with Williamson.

In addition.to this con-

versation with Robreno, Espinosa

met with (Alberto) Blanco,

"El Loco", also involved in the plot with Cubela. Blanco, en

route to Cuba from Russia via Czechoslovakia, mentioned

the

presence of Russian technicians in Cuba, stating that he

wanted the CIA to know that if they were thinking of double-

crossing Cubela, "They (Cubela and his associates in the

plot) would take care of these Russian technicians".

(pp.

67, 68)

It was Espinosa's understanding that Cubela had come

to Madrid sometime earlier to meet with Artime and william-

son.

According to Robreno, Artime was soliciting Cubela's

aid

in a different coup.

Cubela could not trust Artime,

feeling he was working both sides with the CIA and Castro.

Espinosa returned to New York the week following

his meeting with Robreno in Paris and went directly to

HN 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 9

---

## Page 10

Summary of Deposition

Victor

Espinosa

Page Six

Cavasantos of Immigration and Naturalization to be put in

contact with someone in the CIA.

Cavasantos sent Espinosa

to the FBI in New York, where they were joined by someone

from the CIA, whom Espinosa felt was aware of the individuals

mentioned in the AMLASH operation.

(pp. 70-72, 76) Espinosa

related Cubela's message and was told he would

be contacted

within a few days.

(p. 73)

After two weeks, Espinosa con-

tacted a friend who worked for Senator Javits who arranged

for a meeting in Washington with a State Department

official involved with Cuban affairs.

Feeling that he had done all he could do, Espinosa

returned to New York, where he worked for the next two

years before moving to France and Spain. (pp. 77, 78)

Sometime later, Espinosa learned of Cubela's

arrest and imprisonment in Cuba and was most surprised that

Cubela was not executed. (p. 79)

V.

Individuals of Interest Known to Espinosa

A.

Norman Rothman: Espinosa met Rothman in Havana

sometime in the late 1950's, possibly in the casino at the

Hotel Nacional, and later in approximately 1960 or 1961 in

Miami at the Biltmore Hotel.

Espinosa was a social acquaintance of "Cappy"

Rothman, Norman's son, in Miami from approximately 1960-

1963.

(pp. 31, 32, 98-101)

B.

Meyer Lansky: While Espinosa did not know

Meyer Lansky, he did see him at the Rivera Casino in

Havana. (p.

97)

Raphael Garcia Bongo: Trafficante's attorney.

Espinosa knew Jorta Bongo, the brother of Raphael, and

through him met Raphael.

While not first-hand, it was common

knowledge that Raphael was Trafficante's attorney in Cuba.

Approximately five years ago, Espinosa

• learned that Raphael

had been arrested in Spain for passing counterfeit money.

Espinosa heard that the counterfeit money was linked to

Trafficante. (pp. 103-105)

Sam Benton: Knew him through McLaney. Benton

was supplier for the aircraft used on the two aborted oil

refinery raids in 1963. (pp. 18, 19, 23, 93)

E.

Raul Castro: Espinosa met Raul on two occasions

in Havana soon after Castro's takeover.

Espinosa

was present

in Cubela's hospital room when Raul Castro visited Cubela.

(p. 55)

1N 33080 Do01d:32246213 Page 10

---

## Page 11

Summary of Deposition

Victor Espinosa

Page Seven

Jerry Patrick Hemming: Met him on a few

Hemming was always trying to get involved in

exile activities.

The general opinion among Espinosa's

associates was that Hemming was not to be trusted.

G.

friendship.

Rolando Cubela: (AMLASH) Long and involved

HH

53080

DocId: 32248213

Page 11

---

## Page 12

Stenographic Transcript O1

ORIGINAL

HEARINGS

Before The

John. F Kennedy Subcommittee

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EXECUT

SESSION

Washington, D.C.

June 7,

1978

Alderson Reporting

. Сотрапу, Inc.

Official Riporters

300 Seventh St., S. W. Washington, D..C.

554-2345

yw 53080 DocId:32218213 Paye 12

---

## Page 13

EXECUTIVE SESSION

2

DEPOSITION OF VICTORES ESPINOSA

4

-

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 7, 1978

--

House of Representatives,

8

9

President John F. Kennedy.

Subcommittee of the Seleet

Committee on Assassinations,

10

Washington, D. C.

11

The deposition of Victores Espinosa was taken at.

12 8:40 pom., in the office of the select committee on

13

Assassinations in Room 3370 of the office of the Committee,

14 Second and D Streets, S.W., in Washington, D. C.

15 ..

Present: Jonathan Blackmer and John Hornbeck, Counsel to

16- the Select Committee.

17.

present also: Mas. Elizabeth Berning, Chief Clerk to the

18 Select Committee.

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

53080

DocId: 32248213 : Page 1300:7th STREET, S.W REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 14

2

1 Whereupon,

2

VICTORES ESPINOSA

3 having been duly sworn by the Chief Clerk to

the Select

4 Committee, was examined under the rules of the Select

5 Committee and testified as follows:

6

Mr. Blackmer. We are present in the Select Committee's

7 offices to depose you. My name is Jonathan Blackmer and I am

•8 an

attorney with the Select Committee on Assassinations.

9

By virtue of Rule 4 of House Resolution 222, I am im-

10 powered to take statements under oath. Shortly, Mr. John

11 Hornbeck will join us, who is the senior staff counsel on this

12 committee, to further ask questions of the witness.

13

What is your

full name, Sir?

14 Mr. Espinosa. Victores Espinosa.

15:..

: Mr. Blackmer. And you are here for the purpose of giving

16 a voluntary statement before this committee?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

18:::

Mr. Blackmer. I have given you a copy of the committee

19 rules, House Resolution 222, 460 and 760. You are nothunder

20

subpoena, are.you?1f

21

Mr. Espinosa. No.

22

Mr. Blackmer. You are here voluntarily.

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

24

Mr. Blackmer. You have the right to have counsel present

25 if you wish. There is no counsel here and I assume that is of

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

AWW 53080 DocId:32248213 Page bob zthistREET. S:W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 15

3

your own choice.

2

Mr. Espinosa.

I don't see it is necessary, anyway.

3

Mr. Blackmer.

The entire record of this deposition will

4 be transcribed.

We will send you a copy for you to read, ame

and REtURN

to the select Coman, HeR

5 verify;

after which we will send you your own personal copy.

6. Should you wish to make any changes in the substance of the

must

transcript,

this nasato be done before a federal magistrate.

I know you are residing in London and if it is necessary

9 to make any changes, if you feel corrections are necessary,

10 you would please call us, we will try to make arrangements

11 over there for that to be done.

12

I would like to begin the questioning with a little back-

13. ground. You were born in Cuba, is that correct?

14

Mr. Espinosa.

That is right.

15.

Mr. Blackmer.

And you resided there until when?

16

Mr. Espinosa.

Until 1959.

17

Mr. Blackmer.

And at that time you came to the United

18 States.

19

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes..

20

Mr. Blackmer.

Approximately in 1957 or 1958, were you a

21 student at the University of Havana.

. 22

23

Mr. Espinosa.

Mr. Blackmer.

Yes, I was.

And as a student at the University. of

24 Havana, were you engaged in any underground activities with

25 either anti-Batista or later anti-Castro?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

HH: 53080

DocId: 32218213 Page 48 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING; WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 16

1

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, both.

2

Mr. Blackmer. And could you tell us the nature of the

3 activities which were directed against the Batista regime?

4

Mr. Espinosa. Wel, different kinds of clandestine

5 activities.

6

Mr. Blackmer. Would that be in the nature of raising

7 explosives or arms for paramilitary use?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, mainly.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Were you involved in any individual sabo-

: 10- tage operations?

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

12

Mr. Blackmer. What specific activities were those?

Was

13 there anything that comes to mind?

14 : Mr. Espinosa. No, not really.

"$15

Mr. Blackmer. Was it aimed at the economy more than

16 individual members of the Batista regime?

• 17. Mr. Espinosa. Not so much the economy, but

at an

18 individual member.

19

Mr. Blackmer. High level officials?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

21

Mr. Blackmer. A

rest change

22

so Here

you involved with Fidel Castro andscividuals

23. these

anti-batista activities?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25

Mr. Blackmer. Who were you working with?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY; INC,

WH 53080 DocId:32248213 Paye b§o 7th STREET,.S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING: WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 17

5

Mr. Espinosa. !

With students, the Revolutionary Council

2 Of the University of Havana.

3

Mr. Blackmer.

Who are the particular leaders?

4

Mr. Espinosa.

There was Echverrea. (EcheveRRIA.)

5

6

Mr. Blackmer. 1

Do you have a first name?

Mr. Espinosa..

Hosea Antonio, and Cubela,

Porton Chaumon

7

and a few others.

8

Mr. Blackmer. 1

How were vour activities financed?:

9

Mr. Espinosa. Mainly by bonds that were being sold to

10 sympathizers of the revolutionary party.

11 Mr. Blackmer. Were there any large contributors that you

12 can think of?

13

Mr. Espinosa.

I am sure there were, but not that I had

14 any knowledge of.

15 ?

Mr. Blackmer.

you'r famely wee

anthranswer landauners. ware

16 they not, in Cuba?

17

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

18

Mr. Blackmer.

And were they part of the upper class:

•19

20

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

Mr. Blackmer. Were they at all sponsoring your.

21

activities?

22

Mr. Espinosa.

Not that I know of.

23

"Mr. Blackmer. Could you tell us when you first mat

24 Rolando Cubela, the first time you recall havin met aim?

25

Mr. Espinosa. It was a long time ago.

We were children

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

HH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 17

ANTINOTREET: C iM REDORTERS RIMI MING WASHINGTON DR. 20001.12071 554-2315

---

## Page 18

6

1 and he used

to go to school in the same town in which I'was"

2 born in Cuba.

3

Mr. Blackmer. So you had known him many years before

4 your activities started.

5

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

6

Mr. Blackmer.

At the University?

7

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

8

Mr. Blackmer. Who were some of his associates in the

g underground activities?

10

Mr. Espinosa. For example, one Cubela and Machado

11

Mr. Blackmer. Do you have the first names?

12

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot remember the first names because

13 we used to call him "Machaletto" and Joe westbrook.

14

Mr. Blackmer. Is that an American?

15 ..

• Mr. Espinosa. No, he was a Cuban.

16-

17

• 18

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know what any of these individuals

19 are doing now, especially

Lar

20

21

Mr. Espinosa. They are dead.

individuals

Mr. Blackmer. Are any of these

people now with the

22 Castro government?

23

Mr. Espinosa. I think chaumon is with the Castro

24 government, and I think Raminda--and it has been so many

25 years--and Naranjo and the rest of the people I mentioned

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

HW 53080 DocId: 32218213 Page 187th STREET SW. REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 12021 554-2345

---

## Page 19

1 there are dead.

2

Mr. Blackmer.

When did your interest change from being

PRO

3 anti-Batista to

marge Castro?

4

Mr. Espinosa.

I was never pro-Castro; being against

5. Batista does not mean you are pro-Castro. I think very.

6 shortly after Castro took over I began to be anti-Castro.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know any good about Castro before

8 he took over? Did you ever meet hame CAstRo?

9:

Mr. Espinosa. No.

10

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know of any people who were closely

11 associated with him?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Only one person.

13

Mr. Blackmer. And that

was whom?

14

Mr. Espinosa.: That was Jose Smith, and he landed in Cuba

15 when Castro landed and he was killed at that time. That is

16.

the only person whom I knew was close to him.

17

Mr. Blackmer. When Castro landed in Cuba, was that in

18 1956?

19

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, 1956.

20

Mr. Blackmer. So your activities began approximately in

21

1957.

22.

Mr. Espinosa. No, I would say 1955.

23

Mr. Blackmer. During this period of time, did you know

24. Pedro Deaslos? DIAZ LANZ

25

Mr. Espinosa. No, I did not.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

IT 53080

DocId:32248213 Page 19

san 7th

---

## Page 20

8

1

Mr. Blackmer. Have you subsequently known about Pedro

2 Deastos? DIAZ LANE.

3

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Did you have any personal knowledge of

5 him?

6

Mr. Espinosa. What do you mean by "personal knowledge?"

7

Mr. Blackner. " Did you ever have any contact

with him?

8

9

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I did.

Mr. Blackmer. And what period of time was that?

10

Mr. Espinosa. It was, I would say, in 1959 and 1960 in

11 Miami.

12

Mr. Blackmer. Do you recall who he was with when you saw

13 him?

14

Mr. Espinosa. No, I do not recall really, and I only met

15 him once or twice.

16

Mr.

Blackmer. Do you know an individual by the name of

17 Frank Sturgis?

18

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

19

Mr. Blackmer.

Where did you meet this individual?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

In Miami.

21

Mr. Blackmer.

In what time?

22

Mr. Espinosa.

23

Mr. Blackmer.

1959 or 1960.

was he with best lazn you met him'

24

Mr. Espinosa.

I can't recall.

25

Mr. Blackmer.

When you were living in Havana in 1958 and

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

HW 53080

DocId: 32248213

Page, 20

Sitali

---

## Page 21

2

1959, did you

remember frequenting the Hotel Nacional.

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I did.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know an individual there by the

4 name of Michael MeLaney?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

6

Mr. Blackmer:: Would you explain how you first met Mr

7 McLaney and the nature of your relationship?

8

Mr. Espinosa. I met him first because the manager of the

9 hotel, the social manager of the hotel was a friend of mine.

10

Mr. Blackmer. And his name was what?

11

Mr. Espinosa. It was Callejas, and he subsequently

12 introduced me to Bill MeLaney who ultimately introduced me to

13 Mike McLaney.

:14

Mr. Blackmer. And what was the nature of your

15 relationship?

16

Mr. Espinosa. It was just social in Cuba.

17

Mr. Blackmer. Did you go out with them to dinner?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes, sometimes.

19

Mr. Blackmer. Were either of the MeLaney brothers

20 involved in any clandestine activities against either, Batista

21 or Castro to your knowledge at that time?

22

..Mr. Espinosa. Not that I know of.

23

Mr. Blackmer.

when you came to the United States, you

24 say you came in December of 1959.

25

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I think so.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

MY 53080 DogId: PaUe PaUe SW SW REPORTERS RIDING DO DO ARE INDI FEARLE

---

## Page 22

10

1

Mr. Blackmer. Were you sponsored by Mike MeLaney?

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I was.

3

Mr. Blackmer. And did he help you in getting over here

4 financially?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No.

6

Mr.. Blackmer. Were you trained by the Central:

7 Intelligence Agency in any clandestine paramilitary training

8 of any kind?

9

Mr. Espinosa: Yes, I believe it was then:

10

Blackmer. Iwill rephrase-that. Could you tell us

11 your first contact with the Central Intelligence Agency and

12 your role in the Cuban exile movement prior to the Bay of Pigs

13. in the United States?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Well, I heard when I came to the States

15 they were forming some kind of a brigade or something to

16 invade Cuba and I told different friends of mine in Miami

.to

17. let me know when the thing was happening. I went to New York

18. to work and they contacted me at one point, and they were

19 recruiting people to take part in this activity and I went

20 back to Miami and I enlisted myself.

21

Mr. Blackmer. Could you tell us who it was that.

22 contacted.you?

23

MARIO

Jimede 3

Mr. Espinosa.. I think it was

Modert Jimenez.

24

Mr. Blackmer. He contacted you and came back to Miami

25 and where did you go to enlist?

53080 DooId: 32248213 Page 22

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

EDMOTEDE DIl MINE MACHINATON AP. 20024112021 554-2345

---

## Page 23

11

Mr. Espinosa.

I went to one of the enlisting houses, and

2 I think there was one house where you go over there and

3

enlist.

4

Mr. Blackmer. And do you recall any particulars about

5

that house, who was running it and who was there?

6

Mr. Espinosa. No.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know an individual by the name of

8 Howard Hunt?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Well, I have heard about him.

10

Mr. Blackmer. Have you seen photographs of him?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

12

Mr: Blackmer. Was this individual involved in any of

13 this early contact you had with

the Central Intelligence

14 Agency?

15

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know.

16

Mr. Blackmer. After you enlisted in Miami, where were

17 you then sent?

18

Mr. Espinosa. I was sent to Guatemala.

19

Mr. Blackmer. And this would have been approximately

20 when?

21

Mr. Espinosa. This would have been approximately ---

22

Mr. Blackmer. Could it possibly have been in the

23 beginning of 1960?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No, it was not the beginning of 1.960.

25 would say

it was the toward the end of 1960, the third quarter

ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY, INC.

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Paye 2700 7th STREET. S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON; D:C: 20024 1202) 554-2345

---

## Page 24

12

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

• 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

of 1960.

Guatemala?

Panama.

It was

june or July, approximately.

Mr. Blackmer. Did you first go to Panama or first:

Mr. Espinosa.

I went to Guatemala and then went to

14 53080

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

DocId:32218213 Page 30 7th STREET, S.W. PÉPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 25

13

Mr. Blackmer. What type of activities were you trained

2 in?

:3

Mr. Espinosa. Just general activities, general,

4 conventional military warfare and guerrilla warfare and

5 training in explosives and munitions and clandestine

organizations)et cetera.

chest to see

Beration "

7

Mr. Blackmer. Do you recall any of the people who

8 trained you?

were they

Americans?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, there were some Americans and some

10 Europeans too.

11:

Mr. Blackmer. Do you recall the names of these

•12 individuals?

13 Mr. Espinosa. I cannot recall the names. I know one:

14 person, an American of Philippine origin, and he was known to

15 us as colonel Vallejo.

16

Mr. Blackmer. During this training, did you know an

17 individual by the name of Carlos Hernandez?

18

Mr. Espinosa.' Yes, I did.

19

20

Mr. Blackmer.

Koch Gene

John Cochgen

involved with you?

was there an individual by the name of

21

Mr. Espinosa.

I do not recall that name.

22

Mr. Blackmer.

How about Acelo Pedro

Mora's?

23

24

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

JimiNeza

Mr. Blackmer. l

How about Miguel

AlvarezCHermanes?

25.

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WH 53080. DocId:32248213 Page 25

---

## Page 26

14

Mr. Blackmer. Is this the same man who contacted you or

DImINez

2 à different Hermanes?

3

4

J-ImiNez

Mr. Espinosa. This is a different Hermanes.

Mr. Blackmer. Any relation to Mario?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No.

6

Mr. Blackmer. Was there anyone else that you later had

acquaintances with that you trained with?

8

Mr. Espinosa. There were a dozen; there were many.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever go in any infiltration raids

10 into Cuba as part of this?

17

12

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

Mr. Blackmer. Can you recall any of the specific details

13 of any of the particular raids?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. One time we went to a raid about 20

15 kilometers in Havana and we were supposed to knock out this

16 Navy installation somewhere, and all of the raids were a

17 different nature, like if we went into the country, and

18 getting information of the country and bringing people out of

19 the country.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Do you recall any specific individuals

21 that you went on these raids with?

22

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I recall a few.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Could you give us their names?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Miguel Alvarez; Calcie Nundez was another,

25

and Frank--and I can't remember Frank's last name.-

[Frank BeRNaRdinos

see p. 40

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

HW 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 26/7L

COLET CIA

DEDAOTEDE BII MING MAA GWINGTON DE PANDA CONDI FEA DRAE

---

## Page 27

15

1

Mr. Blackmer. Was he American?

2

UgArte

Mr. Espinosa. No, Cuban. It was

Mgorte,

and I cantt

3 remember his first name.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Approximately when were these raids,

before or after the Bay of Pigs?

Mr. Espinosa. They were before and after the Bay of

6

7

Pigs.

8

Mr. Blackmer. How many raids did you go on after the Bay

9 of Pigs?

10

Mr. Espinosa. After the Bay of Pigs, I think I went in

11 two or three times.

12

Mr. Blackmer. And do you recall the last raid that you

13 went on that was sponsored by the CIA, approximately what date

14: that was?

.15

Mr. Espinosa. Possibly it was four or five months after

16 the invasion.

17

Mr. Blackmer. Sometime in the summer of 1961?

•18

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

19

Mr. Blackmer. Were you involved in the Bay of Pig's

20 invasion itself?

21

Mr. Espinosa. Not directly.

22. Mr. Blackmer. Were you infiltrated into Cuba before the

23 Bay of Pigs?

24

Mr. Espinosa. I was being infiltrated at the same time

25 that the Bay of Pigs was taking place, and we were ordered to

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

HH 53080 DocId: 32248213. Page

27

---

## Page 28

16

go back to Miami and then when we got back to Miami, we found

2. out that they had landed.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Did they then try to send you back?

4

Mr. Espinosa. There was a little hustle at that time,

5 everything was very much in the air and we were on stand-by

6 but we were not sent back.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Do you

recall whether or not any members

8 Of Customs or. Immigration in the Miami area were made aware of

9 any of your particular raids so as not to

-tostop you?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Would you rephrase that again?

11

Mr. Blackmer. The various raids that you went on, I

12 assume many of them were from the Miami area.

13•

Mr. Espinosa. They were from the keys, down toward key

14 West.

15

Mr. Blackmer. Were you aware of any monitoring by.

16 Customs or Immigration officials of the United States Govern-

17 ment?

18

Mr. Espinosa..

Would--what do you mean by "monitoring?"

19

Mr. Blackmer, These arenaied

They are charged with the responsibility

20 of enforcing neutrality acts. and They try to limit any hostile

acts emanating from this country. Were you aware that they

OpERAtIONS

22 were told specifically about your organizations so that they

23 did not stop you?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25

Mr. Blackmer.

were you ever stopped?

HW. 53080

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

DocId: 32248213: Page 38, 7th STREET: S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON: D.C. 20024 202) 554-2345

---

## Page 29

17

1

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I was stopped.

2

Mr. Blackmer. While you were working for the CIA?

3

4

5

Mr. Espinosa. No, never.

Mr. Blackmer. When were you stopped?

Mr. Espinosa. After I stopped activities with the CIA.

6

Mr. Blackmer. Approximately when

was this?

7

Mr. Espinosa.: One time was in June of 1963.

8

9

Mr. Blackmer.

That was in Miami?

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, in Miami, and I had been served by

10 Customs agents two different times and I don't know the legal

11 name for it, notification. If I was caught in a boat or in a

12 plane or trying to go somwhere, related to any kind of

13 anti-Castro activity, I will get five years in jail or $5,000

14°

fine or 10 years in jail.

15

15

Mr .

Blackmer. You were in fact stopped once on June g

16 1963?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes:

•18

Mr.. Blackmer. Were you subsequently fined or any charges.

19 brought against

you?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No. I was taken to a prison and anyway I

21 was released the next day.

22

Mr. Blackmer.

Let us, if we can, deal with that incident

23 specifically. Our records indicate that on June 1A of 1963,

24 outside of Miami, you and four other individuals were stopped

25 by Customs and FBI agents with a twin-engine beach craft

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

HH 53080 DooId:32248213 Page. 29

---

## Page 30

18

1 airplane that you were attempting to load with explosives.codid

a bombs, foR

your intended

mission, which was to bomb an oil

3 refinery in Havana.

4

Could you tell us whose idea that operation emanated

5 from?

6

7

8

Mr. Espinosa. From me.

Mr. Blackier. It was your idea?

Mr.. Espinosa. Yes.

Mr. Blackmer. Did you get any assistance from any other

10 individual for the raid?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I got assistance from Carlos

HeRnandez

12 Hermanes, from Miguel Alvarez and that is the other kind of

13 assistance you are asking for?

14

Mr. Blackmer. Financial or other?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Financial assistance from McLaney.

16

Mr. Blackmer. How much money did McLaney give you for

17 this project?

18

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot recall. He gave us whatever we

19 needed to buy the explosives and so on.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Who got the airplanes?

21

Mr. Espinosa. It was Sam Benton.

22

Mr. Blackmer. And how did you know Sam Benton?

23

Mr. Espinosa. I met him at MoLaney's house several

24 times.

25

Mr. Blackmer. How was he introduced?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY; INC.

74 53080

DocId: 32248213 Page 3017th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BÜILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 31

19

1

Mr. Espinosa.. You mean in what ---

2

Mr. Blackmer. What you understood to be his particular

3 role.

4

Mr. Espinosa. He was like a friend of mine and a friend

5. of Mike's and I guess Mike wanted him to front for him or be

6 the one who got the airplane.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Did he

have any specific knowledge of

8 planes or munitions or anything of that nature to where he

9 would be a person that you would go to get these

things?

10

Mr. Espinosa. I wouldn't know that but I don't think so,

11 and I wouldn't think

.50.

12 Mr. Blackmer. So, you think it was really Mike who

13 secured

the planes and used Sam as the front man.

14 Mr. Espinosa. No, I think Mike told him to get üs what

15 we wanted more or less and he got it.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Was it your understanding that Benton was

17 connected with the government in any way, the U.s. government?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

No, at no time did I believe he was

19 connected with the U.S. Government.

20 .

Mr. Blackmer.

And had Mike at any time to your knowledge

21. been connected with the U.S. Government?

22

Mr. Espinosa.

Not that I know of.

23.

Mr. Blackmer. Where did you get the explosives that you

24 were going to use?

25

Mr. Espinosa.

I think we got them in Fort Lauderdale.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NW 53080 DoCId:32248213 Page 31

---

## Page 32

20

Mr. Blackmer. Did you personally get them or someone

2

else got them?

3

Mr. Espinosa. I think Miguel Alvarez got them.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Can you tell us a little bit about what

5 the plan was for this bombing raid?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Well, the plan was to try to get the

7 refinery out of

service or out of production so instead of

8 bringing crude oil into the country and be refined in Cuba,

9 they would have to bring in the gasoline. So, that would have

10 made a very easy target for us in order to blow up the tankers

11 or whatever vessels were used to bring in the gasoline.

12.

Mr. Blackmer. Were you aware that any of these vessels

13 that were carrying oil to Cuba may have been flying a Russian

14 flag?

15

Mr. Espinosa. No, this was a hypothetical thing at the

16 time.

17

Mr. Blackmer. It was not your intention at that time to

18 provoke an incident between the U.S. and Russia?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

No, that would have stopped us from

20 blowing up the Russian ship.

21

Mr. Blackmer. So, you had some knowledge, I understand,

22 of the particular oil refinery that you were going after?

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

24

Mr. Blackmer. How did you acquire that knowledge?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Well, through a family busineses:

53080

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

DooId:32248213 Page 32

ann ThaTREET SW. REPORTERS BUILDING. WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 33

21

1

Mr. Blackmer. And what specifically was that business?

2

Mr. Espinosa. It was--there were industrial inspectors

3 who used to inspect sugar refineries, alcohol and places where

4 alcohol was being made and gasoline refineries, or oil

5. refineries, et cetera.

6

Mr. Blackmer. And you had personally gone over this

7 particular refinery?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, as a younger man I used to go there

with inspectors sometimes to make some pocket money or

10 something.

11

•Mr.. Blackmer. A part-time job?

12

Mr. Espinosa.: A part time job, yes.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Did you talk McLaney into financing this

14 operation?

15.

Mr: Espinosa. Yes.

16

Mr. Blackmer. And did you know what his particular

17 interest was in seeing this operation successfully. completed?

18

Mr.: Espinosa. Well, I mean, first we have to say that if

19 the operation was successful, perhaps we had a chance to

20 economically cripple the country and consequently bring about

21 a change in the politics. Of course, a change in the

22 political situation at the time would have been a favorable

23 change for Mr. McLaney's economics or business out there.

24

Mr. Blackmer. So, McLaney was personally interested in

25 regaining some of his possessions in Cuba.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 307th STREFT SW REPORTERS SininiAn iNc.

---

## Page 34

22

1

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, exactly like that.

2

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know if he was involved in any of

3 the internal politics in Cuba in the sense--do you know if he

4 was sponsoring any particular exile leaders who could possibly

5 in the foreseeable future go back to Cuba and take over once

6 Castro was eliminated?

7

Mr. Espinosa. I don't

know that.. I don't think so.

8

Mr. Blackmer. So, is it your opinion that Mr. McLaney

9 was doing what little he could and hoping that others would do

10 a little and add to the possible fall of the Castro regime?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Exactly.

12

Mr. Blackmer. In July of 1963 outside of New Orleans,

13 Louisianna, a large catch of dynamite and home-made bombs were

14 found in the home of Bill MeLaney. Could you tell us what you

15 know about that catch of arms that was discovered?

16

Mr. Espinosa. It was taken there by me and it was to be.

17

used in other raids.

18

19

Mr. Blackmer. A similar raid?

Mr. Espinosa. As the one that was in Cuba.

20

Mr. Blackmer. I understand that some of the people that

21 participated with you in the June 15 attempt also participated

22 with you in the July attempt.

23

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

24.

Mr. Blackmer. First of all, it is my understanding that

25 you planned on using a B-25 or B-26 bomber.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NW 53080

Doold: 32248213. Page

34

---

## Page 35

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

2

Mr. Blackmer. Was it the B-25 or B-26?

3

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot remember, one or the other.

4

Mr. Blackmer. Who was it that was to get the plane?

5

Mr.

Espinosa. The plane was to be delivered to us over

6

there.

7

Mr. Blackmer. At Pontchartrain?

8

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes, and we were to go over there on the

9

plane and take off.

10

Mr. Blackmer. Specifically, who was going to go on the

11 actual flight?

12

': Mr. Espinosa.: It was going to be a pilot, whose name I

13 can't remember right now.

SoTO

14

Mr. Blackmer. Was it Äntonio

Basquez?

15

Mr. Espinosa. I am not sure; it could be.

16

Mr. Blackmer.

Who else was to go on the plane?

17

Mr. Espinosa.

There were only three people to go on the

18 plane. It was going to be Antonio, if it was--I am not sure,

19 and Miguel and myself or either Migual or Carlos Hernandez..

20

Mr. Blackmer. Was Sam Benton, once again, going to get

21: you the plane?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Who was going to get you the plane?"

24

Mr. Espinosa. I have no idea. We were tried; the whole

25 thing was departmentalized.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

NH: 53080: DocId: 32248213. Page: 35

---

## Page 36

24

Mr. Blackmer. Whose responsibility was it to your

2 knowledge--was it to get the plane?

3

Mr. Espinosa. Financial responsibility, you mean?

4

Mr. Blackmer. Financial responsibility.

5

Mr. Espinosa. It was Mike MeLaney.

6

Mr. Blackmer. And to the best of your knowledge, Mike

7 was going to make sure that the plane was at a specified

8 location?

9

Mr. Espinosa. That is right.

10

Mr. Blackmer. And

as to the pilot, did you take the

11 pilot with you or was the pilot supposed to be there with the

12 plane?

13

Mr. Espinosa. No, I went there first to that place, and

14 then the guy who was going to go with the plane, Carlos

15 Hernandez, came from Miami, and the pilot was supposed to meet

16 us. there once the plane was there or we knew the plane was

17 coming and he was going to fly from Miami to New Orleans.

The pilot

Mr. Blackmer. #9

didn't come

Carlos Hernandez?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No.

Lauchli

20

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know an individual named Luchli

21 from Colesville, Illinois?

22

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

Lauchl:

Mr. Blackmer. How did you come to know Luchti?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Someone gave me his phone number and I

25 can't recall who did it by now, and I called him and I

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY; INC

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213. Page 3006th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BÜILDING, WASHINGTON; D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 37

25

1 inquired if I could go and see him and get some explosives and

2 get some special detonators made for the bomb's we were going

3 to drop in the raid.

4

Mr. Blackmer. This individual that told you about him,

5. What did the

individual tell you about Luchli?

6

Mr. Espinosa. It was just the John Birch society who had

7 helped some

of the Cubans and different officials before.

8

Mr. Blackmer. You telephoned this individual and met

9 him, I assume, where?

10

11

Mr. Espinosa. At his place, at his house.

Mr. Blackmer. That was where?

12

Mr. Espinosa. In Colesville, Illinois.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Did you then go with him to pick up

14 explosives?

15

Mr. Espinosa. First, we picked up the explosives but we

16 left them at the place where he had them and then we went on

17 for three or four days making the detonators which were made

18 from the heads of 61 millimeter mortar shells or 60 millimeter

19 mortar shells.

Lauchl,

20

Mr. Blackmer. I assume Mr. Lachli supplied all of the

the bernts.

21 individual parts and you and Luchli together made them?

22: Mr. Espinosa. We put them together and he had a very

23 nice working room.

24

25

Mr. Blackmer.

This was in Colesville, Illinois?

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

WH 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 3zh STREET SW REPORTERS RINDING MACHINATANi dO AnnA

---

## Page 38

26

Mr. Blackmer.. And then did you subsequently take the

2 bombs and

munitions with you to New Orleans?

3

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

4

Mr. Blackmer. When you went to New Orleans, where did

5 you stay?

6

Mr. Espinosa. I stayed at McLaney's house.

7

Mr. Blackmer. The same cottage at Lake Pontchartrain?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes but let me say something first. I

9 stayed the first night in a motel, and the next day I drove

10 because I wasn't sure I could find a place at night and then

11 the next day I drove over there.

12

Mr. Blackmer.

Did you at any time contact Bill MeLaney?

:13

• Mr. Espinosa.

I can't recall if I did or not, I probably

14 did.

15

recall if

Mr. Blackmer. Do you have any idea how someone else may

16 have given you a key or was the door left open? In other

17 words, what I am trying to establish is: Did Bill know about

18 the whole operation?

19

Mr. Espinosa. I can't say for certain.

20

Mr. Blackmer. And you do not recall whether or not he

21 physically came to the cottage where you were?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Blackmer.

Did you know anyone else in New Orleans at

24 the zine that you might have been in contact with?

25.

Mr. Espinosa. No.

ALDERSON, REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WH 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 308 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 12021 554.2245

---

## Page 39

27

of

3

4

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know an incividual by the name

2 Guy Bannister?

Mr. Espinosa. Not that I know of.

Mr.

Blackmer. A former FBI agent and active at the time

5 in New Orleans.

Mr. Espinosa. No.

Did ups kwow oR have you euce

heard d

Mr. Blackmer.

DAvid FeRRIe?

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

HH 53080

DooId: 32240213 Page 39

---

## Page 40

Select Committee on Assassinations

M.S. House of Representatives

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20515

Recrew stero Notes for p.a8 rei

Fred Gil.?

HH 53080

isi

DocId: 32248213

Page

40

---

## Page 41

28

1

Mr. Blackmer. Are you familiar with an individual by the

2. name of Carlos Marcelle?

3

4

5

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

Nick

Mr. Blackmer. An cam Popicap

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

6

Mr. Blackmer.

GARISCO

Peter Gaurasco?

7

Mr. Espinosa. No.

Mr. Blackmer. After you arrived at Lake Pontchartrain, a

9 day or so later, I assume Carlos Hernandez came and met you

10 and I assume you went over the plan of the operation.

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

12 Mr. Blackmer. Could you tell us at what point you

13 decided against going on the operation?

• 14

Mr. Espinosa. Well, somehow the father of Fred Gill, who

15 was going to arm the plane, died and subsequently we had to

16 restructure and

the guy had to go to Miani and shortly after

17 the burial or something we found out he had been picked up by

18 the FBI, so we had to call

the operation off.

19

Mr. Blackmer. And at any time did you see the planes?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No.

21

Mr. Blackmer. After the operation was cancelled, where

22 did you go?

23

Mr. Espinosa. I came to New York.

24

Mr. Blackmer. Did you contact McLaney?

25

Mr: Espinosa. Yes, I did.

NH 53080

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC:

DocId: 32248213 Page 3007th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON; D.C. 20024 202) 554-2345

---

## Page 42

29

Mr. Blackmer., And did you explain to him that the

2 operation had been cancelled?

3

4

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, for the time being.

Mr. Blackmer.

What was his reaction?

5

Mr. Espinosa: I explained it to him and i thought he was

6 reasonable.

7

Mr. Blackmer. How about After the June 15 raid was

3. stopped by the FBI! did you contact Mike MeLaney?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Of course.

10

Mr. Blackmer. What was his reaction to that?

11

Mr. Espinosa. He was always a good gambler and he took

12 things very philosophically.

13

Mr. Blackmer.

Was he upset that the Federal Bureau of

14 Investigationg had in

essence infiltrated the operation?

15

Mr. Espinosa. No.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Was he aware that someone in the operation

17 had leaked the information to the FBI?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes, we told him.

19

Mr. Blackmer. What was his reaction to that?

20

Mr. Espinosa. We told him we wanted to kill the guy but

21 he said, "No, you shouldn't do that."

22

Mr. Blackmer.: After your trip to New York and your

23 contact with Mike MeLaney, did you ever again propose a

24 similar operation?

25

Mr. Espinosa. No.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

HH 53080

DocId:32218213 Payesod3th STREETS.W REPORTERS dinInC

---

## Page 43

30

Mr. Blackmer.

why was that?

2

Mr. Espinosa.

well, you get tired of failure.

3

Mr. Blackiner.

Well, it ts only twice, at this tine -

4

Mr. Espinosa. It is only twice but up to five or six.

5 years

doing the same thing.

6

Mr. Blackmer. In

1962, there was a raid on a hotel in

→ Havanã, a shelling of a hotel in ilavana sy membera so le b.Re.

8

Mr. Espinosa. It was 1966.

9

Mr. Blackmer.: No, 1962, by members of the DRE, which was

10 à student directorate and an anti-castro exile organization at

11 the time.

12

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Were you familiar with that raidy and di

14

youknowanything.about that?

15

Mr. Espinosa. No.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know that Carlos Hernandez was on.

17. that raid?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

I have heard that he was but I wasn't

19 sure.

20

MANUel

Mr. Blackmer.

Did

you know Emanual Salvat?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

I can't recall.

22

Mr. Blackmer. Also on that raid was an individual named

23 Udalia Mayar? Did you ever hear of that individual?

24

Mr. Espinosa. I think so, yes.

25

Mr. Blackmer. And do you recall what you have heard

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY; INC,

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Paye3009th STREET S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON DC ODA INDI GRADIRE

---

## Page 44

31

1 about that individual?

2

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Were you aware at any time of any

4 organized crime efforts. to sponsor similar raids similar to

5 the one that you were on?

6

Mr. Espinosa. No.

7

Mr. Blackmer. When you were living in Havana and

8 frequently in the Hotel Nacional, did you ever know an

9 individual named Norman Rothman?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

1.1

Mr. Blackmer. What was the nature of your relationship

12 with him?

13

Mr. Espinosa.

I just saw him a couple of times; that is

14 all.

7

15

Mr. Blackmer. Did you not in fact know his sone a

16€

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

18

Mr.

Blackmer. And did you know his son self in Havana or

19 Miami?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

I met him in Miami.

21

Mr. Blackmer.

Was there a particular hotel or bar that

22 you used to meet?

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, there was a bar in a hotel in Miami

24 Beach. He used to have this bar, and I think we called him

25 "Cappy," his nick-nane, and we used to go quite often to his

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

i. "

MH 53080 DocId: 32248213. Paye 300th STREFT SW REDNOTEDS OUT MIND

---

## Page 45

32

1 bar.

2

Mr. Blackmer. And was the elder Rothman there on

3 occasion?

4

Mr. Espinosa.

Maybe a couple of times, yes.

5

Mr. Blackmer. But you had no specific association with

6 the elder Rothman?

7

Mr. Espinosa. No.

8

Mr. Blackmer. And at no time did Norman Rothman have

9 need of your services as far

as implementing any clandestine

10 activities?

11

Mr. Espinosa. No.

12

13

Mr. Blackiner. So, it was just Mike McLaney.

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know an individual named Frank

15 Bender?

16

Mr. Espinosa. I don't think so.

17

Mr. Blackmer. In Havana once again, did you have any

18 contact with the American Embassy with respect to your

19 underground activities?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No.

21

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know any individuals in your group

22 who had connections with the American Embassy?

23

Mr. Espinosa. No.

24

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know whether or not your friend,

25 Rolando Cubela, had any contact with the American Embassy?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

H 53080 DocId: 32248213' Pae3095th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BÜILDING, WASHINGTON Mr Ass inniEr.

---

## Page 46

33

1

Mr. Espinosa. No.

2

Mr. Blackmer. Did you have any contact with the Central

3 Intelligence Agency in Havana?

4

Mr. Espinosa. Not many, but from a good friend of mine,

5 yes.

6

7

Mr. Blackmer. Who was that?

Mr. Espinosa. Carlos Tepedino. I don't know for sure he

was an agent.

Mr. Blackmer. Tepedino was a friend of Cubela, and he

10 had contact with the. CIA?

1.1

Mr. Espinosa. I cannot tell you for sure if he had

12 contact with the CIA but this is what we all believed at the

13 time.

14

Mr. Blackmer. Is there any individual that you may have

15 suspected that he had contact with?

16

Mr. Espinosa. No.

17

Mr. Blackmer.

Have you heard of an individual named

18 David Phillips?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No:

20

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever see Frank Sturgis at any of

21 the gambling casinos in Havana?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Were you aware of any of Frank Sturgis'

24 activities with Fidel Castro prior to Castro's take-over?:

25

Mr. Espinosa. No.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

j#W 53080. DocId:32248213 Paye30d@h STREET, SW. REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTOA DiA insA

---

## Page 47

34

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know an individual named Gerald

2. Patrick Hemming?

3

Mr. Espinosa. I think I met him once or twice in Miani

4

Mr. Blackmer. And did you have any dealings with

5 Hemming?

6

7

Mr. Espinosa. Nothing at all.

Mr. Blackmer. What did you know about Hemming?

Mr. Espinosa. Nothing. What we thought we knew about

9 him is that he was always mixing with the Cubans that were

10 trying to do something but the word was he was working for the

11: FBI or CIA or somebody, and no one ever took him very

12 seriously about anything or confided in him for anything.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Where were you on November 22, 1963?

14

Mr. Espinosa. That was the assassination?

15

Mr. Blackner. Yes.

16

Mr. Espinosa. In New York.

17

Mr. Blackmer. When you learned of the assassination--and

18 I assume you saw newspaper articles and television coverage of

19 the assassination--did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald as

20 having seen him before?

21

Mr. Espinosa. No.

22

Mr. Blackmer. Had you heard anything after the

23 assassination from any of your friends in the Cuban exile

24 community that may have implicated any one of the öld Cüban

25 exiles in the assassination?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

MW 53080 Docid: 32218213 Payese Tith STREET, S.W. REPORTERS SUILDING WASHINGTON DR ANANA

---

## Page 48

35

1

Mr. Espinosa. No, never.

2

Mr. Blackmer. After the Bay of Pigs, what was

the

3 reaction to him of the cuban exiles that you knew? I am sure

4 they were very disappointed and were many of them violently

5 angry against Kennedy himself or the U.S. Government?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Not really against him, against

the CIA

7 mainly or against the government and not against Kennedy.

8

Mr. Blackmer. What was their general feeling as the

9. cause of the failure of the Bay of Pigs?

10

Mr.

Espinosa. The CIA.

11

Mr. Blackmer. How do you mean?

12

13

1.4

Mr. Espinosa. Well, should I go into this a little?

Mr. Blackmer. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Espinosa. When the question was risen by the pilots

15 in Guatemala, if you are going to go to the Bay, go in with a

16 B-25 or B-26. B-26, let us say, is a tactical bomber plane

17 and now this kind of plane, if I remember, it has eight

18 50-caliber machine guns in the nose and two in the tail and so

19

on .

• 20

And in order for this plane to fly from Guatemala to Cuba

21. and be able to have a feeder for 30 minutes operation in the

22 area and bomb or machine gun for 30 minutes and come back to

23 Guatemala, all of this ammunition and all of the machine guns

have to be taken from the plane and put additional gasoline

25 tanks in.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

WW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Payed STALeT ci

---

## Page 49

36

So, the question was aroused--and how do you say in

2 English--it was raised of what happens when we get there

3 without any fighter protection and the planes are going to be

4 in the air and they are going to be knocked down?

5.

So, the answer to that was that there were going to be

6 two or three bombing raids and one in San Antonio Bay in

7 Havana and another one in another place and another one in

8 Valdo Beach at the airport and just destroy it and make it a

9 pretentious strike and destroy Castro's air force

on the

10 ground.

11

So, everybody was very content with this explanation and

12 the strike took over and Roa, who was a Cuban ambassador to

13 the United Nations, made a big fuss at the time.

So, there

14 was a big fuss in the United Nations and they came up with the

15 pictures of the planes, and..then it was found that this story

16 that the air force had been bombed by Cuban pilots belonging

17: to Fidel Castro's army who had defected, it was a lie because

•18 the models of the Cuban planes were a different model, liké

19 you have a DC-9B or Dc-9c.or is that rightz

20

So, when Stevenson, who was ambassador to the United

21. Nations--when he went to Kennedy and the third strike was

22 called off, which left Castro with about two-

23

ME, Blackmer We werestalkin

24

Mr, Espinosa or three planes were left as a consequence.

25 of the Stevenson convincing the president at a

time to cali of

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

IN 53080 DocId: 32240213 Pate3089th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BÜILDING WASHINGTON DO MAMA TONIGELORAR

---

## Page 50

37

1 the third raid, so consequently we lost all of the planes.

2

Mr. Blackmer. Is that one of the specific reasons why

3 the invasion failed?

4

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I would think so.

5

Mr. Blackmer. Because Castro's air force was able to

6 annihilate the bombers and also the supply ships?

7

Mr. Espinosa. As long as we had a boat we could really

8 take and maintain a piece of land over there until the forces

9: of the Organization of American States would come in, and as I-

WeRe

10 understood by friends of mine who

wee there,

all of the ships,

11 the battle ships were right there and the carrier and the

12: whole thing.

13

So, I guess the whole thing was that somehow people

14 thought it was

as usual, the usual CIA screwed up thing, and

15 they thought it was. Stevenson who really precipitated the

16 whole thing. But nobody--maybe because they were sympathetic,

but nobody bothered about blaming Kennedy for it.

18

Mr. Blackmer. So, it was your feeling at the time that

19 the CIA was noted for inefficient operationspend In your

20 training, did you feel like you were given imadequate and ima

21 sufficient training-and did you feet like that

22

Mr. Espinosa. As I said to you the other day, I did, and

23 300 guys did, but not the whole force that invaded Cuba.

And

24 then this might not have been a CIA decision and might have

25 been a decision saying you have to get the guys over there and

HH 53080. DOCId: 32248213 Page 50

anir

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC,

---

## Page 51

38

1 it is now or never.

2

So, what I am saying is, as I said to you the other day,

3 it is the fault of the Cubans.

If we had gotten in there in

4 the beginning and so on and so on.

Mr. Blackmer.

Did many Cubans understand this to be the

the pollene

6 situation that should fall on their shoulders and

the

7 againto your knowled

8•

Mr. Espinosa, They wage all heroes, even if they never

9 saw a gun in their lives.

They are all heroes and so you have

10 to blame things on other people and not on yourselves and the

11 main reason why we failed should fall upon our shoulders to

12 begin with.

÷13

Mr. Blackmer.

It is your testimony: then that you

14 participated in an infiltration before the Bay of Pigs and

15 after the Bay of Pigs you were on three or four more

16 infiltrations into Cuba?

17: : Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

18

Mr. Blackmer.

And as I recall, what we are trying to do

19 today is get on the record all of the things we had discussed

20 in our interview with your and so you betieve at that former

21 interview you stated

22

Mr. Espinosa. Let me tell you something.

There was a

23. file somewhere with the days and the people that went into

24. this infiltration and you didn't do that because I have seen

25 it many, many years ago.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Paged in STREET, S:W. REPORTERS RUDING WASHINGTON DN

---

## Page 52

39

1

Mr. Blackmer.

Where exactly did you see this file?

2

Mr. Espinosa. I saw it and I was going with

somebody who

3 was a civil servant and he showed it to me as a favor but I

4 know there is a file.

5.

Mr. Blackmer. And this file you saw, where was it, in

6 Miami?

7

8

Mr. Espinosa. No, I didn't see it in Miami.

Mr. Blackmer. Would you like to tell us where you saw

9 it?

10

Mr. Espinosa. No.

11

Mr. Blackmer. And to your knowledge it details each one

12 of the operations that you personally were involved in?

13

Mr. Espinosa.. Yes, and the persons involved and friends

14 of mine and people, involved in the other operations with me

15 from the CIA and the whole thing.

'16

Mr. Blackmer. Is it your feeling that, as you expressed

17 the other day, that these subsequent operations were merely

18 done by the CIA just to keep control or taps on sómé of the

19 tra? Cubans?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Either that or to get us killed, one thing

21 or the other.

22

Mr. Blackmer. And you felt that the operations them-

23 selves were meaningless?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Not only that; you two have been in the

25 army, is that right? And you know, you can understand that.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

MN 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 3th STREET S.W. REPORTERS RIDING MAGUININTON O

---

## Page 53

40

1 Anyway, if you have a box of 30 caliber machine gun

2 ammunition, you know exactly, you know when you open the

3 ammunition box you are going to find the required ammunition

4 and when you start going on the operation and you open up a 30

5 caliber munitions box and you start finding 45 caliber

6 ammunition, you start wondering because these things come: like

7 that.

8.

After a few years they take them away because it is like

9 a prescription in a pharmacy and they deliver them to you from

10 an army camp or from an army depot or something, and what it

11 says outside, believe me, you will find inside.

12

If you do not find inside what is outside, if you do not

13. find it, you wonder who changed it and why was it changed?

14

Mr. Blackmer. How large were the groups that you

15 infiltrated with?

16

Mr. Espinosa. Small groups, three or four.

17

19

Mr. Blackmer.

And were you parachuted in or were you

brought ac laken by sea?

Mr. Espinosa. We were always taken in by séa.

The name

20 of that Frank I mentioned before it Frank Bernardino.

* 21

22

Mr. Blackmer.

This was an individual you knew?

Mr. Espinosa.

He was a good friend of artime.

23

Mr. Blackmer. And Cubela?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25.

- Mr Blackmer.

Ihave forgotten where this man was.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC..

MH 53080 Docid: 32248213 Page anstReet sw Deonorenan

---

## Page 54

41

1 mentioned

2

Mr. Espinosa Inne the raids

3

Mr Blackmer nef the raids you werein?

4

Mr. Espinosa. You asked me who-was with meandI

5 mentioned.afew.others andcouldn-tremembe...

6

Mr. Blackmer. In February of 1963 there was a story

7 circulated that certain Russian technicians were hiding in the

8 hills in Cuba and that they wanted to defectuamlas a result

9 of this a man by the name of Eddie Bayo or Edkardo Perez with

10 10 other men were infiltrated into Cubanand

they were never

11 seen

again. Had you heard during the time that here toey about

the

12 Russian technicians?

13

Mr. Espinosa. It is the first time that I heard of it at

14 the time, yes.

15

Mr. Blackmer. That the Russians were in Cuba, büt had

16 you heard

any of them were hiding and ready to defect?

17

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

18

Mr. Blackmer. What had you heard about the Russian

19 technicians at the time?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Well, what I heard at the time was that

21. 10ng before that time, long before 1963, there was Alphonzo

22 Carol and there was Siva--the last name and I cannot remember

23 the first name, and they were in a CIA mission in cuba and

24 they reported to the CIA of at least they said they were

25 technicians or they were putting things together and they

HH 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 54

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC:

---

## Page 55

42

1 didn't know exactly what it was, so they were not briefed for

2 that particular mission and so I have heard.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Was this before 1962?

4

Mr. Espinosa. Before 1962, yes.

5

Mr. Blackmer. Was it before the Bay of Pigs?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Before the Bay of Pigs.

Mr. Blackmer. But you had not heard of that other story.

Mr. Espinosa. The first time I heard about this story

9 about the Russians in the hills is now.

BAYO.

Coscaya

10

Mr. Blackmer. And you were aware of General Bio Coscoya,

11 the general who trained Castro?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I have heard about the old mán, yes.

13

14

Mr. Blackmer. Did you personally know him?

Mr. Espinosa. No.

•15

Mr. Blackmer. Dia you ever see him?

16

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

17

Mr. Blackmer.

Were you aware of any children he may have

18 had?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No.

20

Mr. Blackmer. And you do not know Eddie Bayo or

Edwardo

21

Perez?

22

23

Mr. Espinosa. No.

Mr. Blackmer. Al

ght, I think John Hornbeck would:

24 like to ask a few questions, especially about Cubela and your

with himo

25 relationship there and so I can turnthe

questioning over tó

ALDERSON REPORTING.COMPANY ING

NY 53080 DocId: 32248213 Paye305th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON: D:C: 20024 12021 554-0245

---

## Page 56

mberk.

43

2

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you state the first time that you met

3 Rolando Cubela and what your relationship was with him in

4

Cuba?

5

Mr. Espinosa. I must have met Rolando when I was about

12 or 13 years old because he used to go, or we used to have a

very good protestant school in the city in which I was, born.

8 And a lot of people from all over Cuba used to

go there to get

9 an education.

10

He was going to this school and I met him at that time;

11 and I was 12 or 13 and he must have been 15 or 16 years old

at

12 that tine.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Were you friendly with any of his

14 relatives and was he friendly with any of your relatives?

15

Mr. Espinosa.

I was friendly with his father and with

16 his mother and mainly

with his brother, and his father, I saw

17 him and he was always lost somewhere and I was very friendly

18 with his mother and with his sister, Cari.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. After this first schooling with Rolando,

20 did you continue to stay in contact with him?

21.

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, mainly because he was a very good

Jose

22 friend of Hosea Antonio Echeverria.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. And I take it. Echeverria was a good friend

24 of yours?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, we used to live about 20 minutes from

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,:

1H 53080* DocId:32248213 Page 56'

---

## Page 57

44

1 each other.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. Did the three of you attend

any schools of

3 higher education?

4

Mr. Espinosa. We all went to the University of Havana.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. Were all three of you there at

6 approximately the same time?

7

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, they were there before I was there

8 and by the time I got there they were big shots already.

9

Mr. Hornbeck, What was Cubela's course of study at the

10 University and what political activities at the University was

11 he engaged in?

12

Mr. Espinosa. It is funny, Rolando started to be a

13 doctor and he was studying to be a doctor.

14.

Mr. Hornbeck. You are speaking of a medical doctor?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, and I do not know whether he:

16 graduated or not and his political activities were very, very

17 limited in the sense that he would sort of follow the

18 activities of Antonio mainly.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. And was this their pattern at the

20 University when you arrived, that Echeverria was a real leader

21 and Cubela was associated with him?

22

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. What year did you first enter the

24 University?

25

Mr. Espinosa. 1954.

HN 53080 DocId:32240213 Page: 57

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

---

## Page 58

45

Mr. Hornbeck. And was the University a strongly

2 political kind of institution?

3

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, very much.

4

Mr. Hornbeck.: And you graduated from the University?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No, I was there one year and it was that

6 we had a lot of fights with the police and

shoot-outs and the

7 like.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. What was the main contention between the

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 59, crocer eur

pinnation

---

## Page 59

45

1 students and the police regime at that time?

2

Mr. Espinosa. Dictatorship, democracy and the trouble we

3 were having with a dictator. you don't like and the Cubans have

4. Castro now.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. Who was the dictator at that time?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Batista.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. And who were the students supporting if

there was anyone candidate?

9

Mr. Espinosa. What is that?

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Who did the students support or was it

11 just against Batista?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Mainly the last president, Prio. There

13 was a lot of good nature and idealogical politicking in the

14 University, and there was a lot of politicking done by other

15 guys who had been in the University for a long time and the

16 kind of students who never graduated, professional students,

17 and I think prio was to butter them up and keep them flaming,

18 and there were different sections.

19

But in general, everybody liked prio and there was a

20 democratic government and here came Castro and he screwed it

21 up.

Mr. Hornbeck. When you left the University, were Cubela

23 and Echeverria still at the University?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Did there come a time when you joined them

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

MH 53080 DocId: 32210213 Page3009th STREETS.W. REPORTERS BUNDING WASHINATAN NO

---

## Page 60

47

1 in any anti-castro activity or anti-Batista activities?

2

Mr. Espinosa. I will explain to you. I was

in the

3 University for one year and I didn't study, and

all we did the

4 whole time was just trying to get something going against

5 Batista. There were so many clashes with the police and

6 people shot and this and that.

7

And my father took me out and sent me to LSU. I stayed

8 there one year and then I became of age, 18, and my grand-

9 father died, and so I decided to quit and go on and take over

10 the ranch that my grandfather had left me at the time.

11

So, I went over there

and minding my own business and

12 working and not messing in politics and I used to spend three

13 or four weeks over there or 40 days and then go to Havana for

14 a weekend or three or four days. And then one time I went to

15 Havana and Rolando called me and he had just--or Antonio had

16 just been to Mexico to see Castro and they had a meeting in

17 Mexico.

18

So, he said, "we are going to have a meeting with about

Jose ANtONiO

19.10 or 12 guys in the University and Hosanna told me to call

20: you."

21

Mr. Hornbeck.

Can you tell us approximately what year

22

this was?

1956

23

Mr. Espinosa.

This was the day before Colonel

24 Blanco was shot, the day before he was shot.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you identify what position he held?

' 53080 DocId:32248213 ^ Page 60

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

DeDnOTERE RUInING WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 61

48

Mr. Espinosa. Who is that?

2

Mr. Hornbeck. Blanco.

3

Mr. Espinosa.. He was head of military intelligence.

4

Mr. Hornbeck: Under the Batista regime?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

6

Mr. Hornbeck.: And

that day, what ---

7

Mr. Espinosa. That day Rolando called me and he said, i.

"We are going to meet at the square in the University àt 1:10

Dose aNtONIo

9 o'clock, and Hosanna told me to call you." And so I got over

10 there and we were

about 10 or 12 guys, and Castro was going to

11 come and he sent me regards from the guy who was killed and we

12 had to start really cracking and getting things done over

13 there, like shooting the big guys or chief of police and so on

14 and military intelligence and all of that.

15

So, we made three groups of four people each

and I can

16 remember who was there in case you want the names but I don't,

17 think it is of interest to you because most of them are dead,

18 and maybe except for Rolando.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. If you can remember the groups and what

20 targets those particular groups had.

21

Mr. Espinosa. The people who were there were Rolando,

22 Antonio, Machin and Machado.

23

• Mr. Hornbeck.

Was that his first name?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No, it was his last name and I can't

25 remember his first name. There was Roderiques

Rodriguer

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WW 53080 Docia:32248213 Page 6o7th STREET; S:W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 62

49

1

2

Mr. Hornbeck. What was the first name?

Mr. Espinosa. Nutosa. There was Joe Westbrook and there

3 was--I cannot remember his name now and he is dead anyway, and

4 all of the people that were there.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. So, did the groups divide into these four

6 areas with specific targets in mind?

7

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, one group was going to take care of

8 Usalace who was chief of police and we were the youngest ones

9 and we got the easiest one, who was Blanco Irco, and then the

10 others were together going to take care of Taberinalla.

11

Mr. Hornbeck, What position did he hold?

12.

Mr. Espinosa. The army chief.

13

• Mr. Hornbeck. Were any of these groups successful in

14 carrying out their targets?

15 Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. Of the groups, which ones were successful?

17.

Mr. Espinosa. Our group; we were the one who got lucky

18 first.

19.

Mr. Hornbeck. What was to be your particular role in the

20 assassination of Blanco Irco?

21

Mr. Espinosa. Just to stay in the car and worked with a

22 gun over there to see if someone was coming.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you describe just briefly what

24 occurred the day he was killed?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Rolando called me and I was. not at home.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WW 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 63i07th STREET, S.W REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D:C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 63

50

1 I was at my girlfriend's, and it was a Saturday, and he called

2 me over there and he wanted to pick me up and we took my car

3

and we picked up two guys and a hand grenade.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Rifles or pistols?

• 5

Mr. Espinosa. Two pistols, one 45 and one a Spanish

6 Start, and

then we went

to pick up Carbo, Pedro Carbo--that is

7 the last name and we gave each other a rendezvous at 10:00

:8 o'clock. I left Rolando at his home and I went home and I

9 took a nap and I took a shower and I went there at: 10:00

10 o'clock and they were not there.

11

So, I went to three or four different places where we

12 were supposed to be because the guy was supposed to be there,

13 and I thought maybe I was late or they were early. I thought

14 it was my fault and I couldn't find him and about half past 12

15 or 10:00 o'clock, I said, "Well, nothing happened," and I

16 don't know what happened and I went to sleep. The next

17 morning I just heard on the radio that they got the guy.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. After that particular event, what kind of

19 activities against the Batista regine did you engage in with

20 Rolando and Echeverria?

21

Mr. Espinosa. Let me try to synchronize because then I

22 had to leave the country.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. He was immediately suspected?

24

Mr. Espinosa. He was not immediately suspected.: At the

25 time we were so young and I don't think they would suspect us

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NH: 53080

DocId: 32248213 Page 63207th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 64

51

1 and they were thinking of old gangsters, and some of his

2 professional students that were there.

Actually, I think that

3 they got Cubela but anyway. at that time he was out of the

4 country.

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you know where he went?

6

Mr. Espinosa. He went to Miami. I think for a long time

7:I didn't see him and the other people were trying to carry on

8 with their targets, and I wasn't in contact with Antonio for

9 about a year. Then, he called me one day and we had a meeting

10 and we were talking about making an assault on the Presi-

11: dential Palace and that is the last time that I saw him.

12..

Mr. Hornbeck.: Approximately what was the plan date of

13: the assault on the palace?

14

Mr. Espinosa.. I think he got a letter--I am sure--from

15 Castro that he showed to all of us who were there at that

16 meeting that day, and the letter was saying, "Well, after 120

17 days or 90 days or 200 days that I have been in the Sierra

18 Mastros, in the hills, you haven't done anything yet.".

19

It was a kind of a letter that was really trying to make

20 him

feel like a shit, and I know this was a much more

21 complicated thing and it was only going to be the students who

22 were going to do it.

23

Then, in came people from other organizations and.

24 relatives in the other organizations, the far right, and

25 ex-politicians like Sandro and people like that and I saw him

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

MW. 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 6907th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 65

5.2

that day and he said,. "I will be in touch with you," and h

2

never got in touch with me.

3

Mr. Hornbeck. Did there come a time when Cubela returned

4 to Miami?

5

Mr: Espinosa. Yes.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us approximately when that

7 was?

8

Mr. Espinosa. It must have been the end of 1957.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. And from the period?

10.

Mr. Espinosa. It was the middle of '57, three or four

11 months after that time of the Presidential Palace.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. From the period of mid '57 through the

13 first part of 1959, what was your association with Cubela?

14

Mr.. Espinosa. You see, everybody was so burned up all of

15 the time in Havana, everybody had to go to the hills and I had

16 a very good relationship with the son of the actual president

17 of the senate in Cuba at the time, and he was a very good

18 friend of mine.

19

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Who was that?

Mr. Espinosa. Alfred Gonzales.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. Would you tell us about the old man first?

22

Mr. Espinosa. The old man was Anselmo Alliegro and he

23. was president of the Senate at the time, and he was one of the:

24 big shots.

I met his step-son when I was in Louisianna State

25 and we were close friends.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

MH 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page Esto 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024(202) 554-2345

---

## Page 66

dog fols

edm ends

53

So, I was somebody who could be in Havana all of the time

2 and more or less protected and I could have the liberty to go

3 places and meet people and pass messages and go back to the

4 hills and so on

without nuch risk of anything happening tome.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. So, where was Rolando Cubela during this

6 period then up until the time when Batista left the first of

7 January?

8

Mr. Espinosa. He was in the hills all of the time.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. What was his group and what relation did

10 they

have with the Castro group?

11

Mr. Espinosa. They had no relation at all..

12

13

14

15

16

17

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

I ww 53080 DocId: 32248213 Paye 660 7thSTREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON; D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 67

54

1

2

Mr. Hornbeck. They were fighting independently?

Mr. spinosa.

Independently, and trying to get to Havana

3 before Castro did, and so you have an idea

what the realities

4. were at the time, when Castro sent Che Guevara from Oriente

Province to the Province of Santa Clara. And I think that he

6 had 150 or 160 men.

7

In Santa Clara there were plenty of people fighting,

8 because this was not

such an isolated place as Oriente was,

9 and it was not only the student group; there was also the

10 people of the william Morgan group which were the

third front,

11 and they alone with 2,500 people. But Castro

wanted to have a

12 chair over there somehow to control the situation, and one.of

13 the things, or the orders was to dispose of Rolando Menoya.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. You are saying one of the missions of Che

15 Guevara was to eliminate or kill both Menoya and Cubela so

16 thät Castro would be the only leader?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. How do you have that information?

19

Mr. Espinosa. From Cubela and from other people who were

20 there at the time, because the thing is that somenow they

found out by some of the students from the University of

22 Oriente who were with Castro.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Was there any confrontation with either

24. Che Guevara or Castro?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Che arrived there and took him and put him

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

NH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 6360 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON; D.C: 20024. (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 68

55

1 under custody. So there was another thing back and forth from

2 Oriente to Santa Clara until the suy was relieved, but he was

3 three or four days under custody.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately what time period was this;

5 can you pinpoint that for us?

6

Mr. Espinosa. This would have been October, September or

7 October of 1958.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. Batista leaves lavana approximately the

9 first of January of 1959?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

11.

Mr. Hornbeck. What arrangements, if any, were made

12 between the various groups then?

13

Mr. Espinosa. : Nothing.

14

• Mr. Hornbeck. How did it come about that Fidel Castro

15 then came to power and Cubela and Menoya and some of the other

16

leaders did not come to power?

17

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know. I always wondered about

18. that myself. And as I said to you, I used to be in the

19 hospital room with Rolando at the time when he was wounded,

20 when he

was going through the operation with the arm, and I

21 was there when Castro came to see him, and when che came to

22 see him and Raul Castro came to see him, and when the other

23 leaders from the student groups came to see him... They had

24 discussions about this and, first of all, they were all.

of the

25 people, wiser people, better trained by the Communists of

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY; INC

WW 53080. DocId: 32248213 Paye 69n7hSTAFFT SW REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON D.C: 20024 202) 554:2345

---

## Page 69

55

1 course, and they knew exactly what we were doing and we didn't

2 know exactly what we were doing. We were fighting

a war and

3 once the war was over, we didn't know what. to do and we didn't

4 have any ambition of power.

And when I say "we," I don't count and I am talking about

6 the people who were there; mostly I am talking about Rolando,

7 and there was no ambition of power or any of that. There was

8 just to get the guy out and that is it. Our aim was to stop,

9 when these people's aims were very well planned for far ahead.

10

Mr. Hornbeck.. Did there come

a time when you and Cubela.

11 split as to your views of Castro?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

13

Mr. Hornbeck.: Can you tell us approximately when that

14 happened, and can you describe how you came apart?

15

Mr. Espinosa. well, as I said at the beginning, when he

16 came into lavana, immediately they called me and they said,

17 "Rolando is going to be here in about one hour and they want

18 you to be at the University. "

19

He came in 15 or 20 minutes late, and he said to me, I

20 think we are going to have a lot of problems with Castro and

21 the 26th of July as a symbolic thing, because so many of our

22 friends got killed on the attack of the Presidential Palace,

23 and Antonio was killed that day, and not there out another

24 part of Havana, and we went and took the Presidential Palace

25 as a gesture and a symbolic thing.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

HH 53080 DocId: 32218213 Page 69o 7th STREET, S:W. REPORTERS BUILDING; WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 70

57

The first two or three months we were together all of the

2 time. Then I started disagreeing with him on things, and I

3

guess I was a wise ass at the time, especially about the

4 things that we were letting Castro get away with, especially

where he had to take

absolute power over everything and we

6 were getting bull shit in return. And the fact was ! never

I liked the guy; and as a matter of fact, I hated him, and I

8 never knew his politics because I don't know.

9

Some people find

out their wives or girls are fooling

10 around with somebody else for two or three years, and jüst

11 from the beginning I thought this was going the wrong way.

SO

12 I started having arguments with Rolando and asking for

13 explanations from him, because this was not what we fought for

14 and not what our friends died for, and "So you are becoming an

15 accomplice of Castro and I cannot understand this."

16

He said, "Why do you say. that, and why are you putting up

17 with this?"

18

I said, "And they are taking land away from people and

19 they are shooting soldiers who never shot in the whole war and

20 just shooting them and there was no trial, and. I have seen the

21 trials and they were mockeries, and whether they were guilty

22: or not guilty, they got shot and that is it."

23

So he wouldn't give me the right answers,

and he would

24 say, "well, there is a revolution." And I said, "I don't

25 understand that, Rolando, and I don't understand it, and I

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 70

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

---

## Page 71

58

I don't understand the things that are happening, and you are

2 being an accomplice because you are in a position to do

3 something and you are not doing anything, and you are playing

4 his ball game."

5

In the beginning we discussed these matters, and then we

started getting

very close in, and I really didn't understand

7 it. And to the point one day we had a discussion in my house

8. and he told my mother, "When your son goes to jail, then call

9 me," and I said, "I won't call you."

10

11

Mr. Hornbeck. Rolando said that to your mother?

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately when did you leave Havana?

13

•Mr. Espinosa. I left Havana in 1959.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. When in 1959?

15

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know if it was October or

16 September or November; somewhere between October and Decenber.

•17

Mr. Hornbeck. During the period of time that you came to

18 the United States

and went to train in the Bay of Pigs and

19 came back to the United States; did you have any contact with

20 Cubela?

21

Mr. Espinosa. Well, some guys and myself, we thought at

22. the time we were allowed to go to South America and I and some

23 others were

going to Panama or Nicaragua, and so we got the

24 idea -- and there is one thing I forgot to tell you.

25

At the beginning when things began, there was a lot of

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY: INC;

HH 53080 DOOId:32248213 Page 71

---

## Page 72

59

1 friction with the 2oth of July, and we took all of the weapons

2 from an arsenal in

some base outside of Havana, and it must

3 have been 500M-1 rifles and a few 50-caliber machine guns and

4 copule of hundred of Thompson submachine guns, and some

5 mortars, a 190 tank gun, and somehow all of the things were

6 hidden by me.

7

Rolando told me to hide it in a place, that we were going

8 to need it one day. So I hid it in my house, and we had a

9 very big house, so big that when they came looking for these

they couldn't find it because it was like an old castle and

11

there were like hidden doors, hidden panels and things like

12 that.

13

They came looking for it and they didn't find it, and so

14 about two or three weeks after that I put the whole thing in a

15 truck and took it to a resort very near to where I was born,

16 in Varadero.

17

So I took it over there and we decided, a few guys who

18 were going to do something, go to the hills or do something,

19 and we came out with this idea. to go to some other country and

20

do something so we could get away and cover our activities.

21

We got caught.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. By whom?

23

Mr. Espinosa. By Castro.

24

Ne got caught, and we were taken to Military

25 Intelligence, and there were about six or seven of us,

änd

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC,

HH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page

72

---

## Page 73

60

1 they got all the weapons. Someone squealed and they

2 infiltrated somebody in the group.

And I don't know what was

3 going to happen, but it was a little bit scary at the time,

4 and so we were uncommunicated

for several days and we were

5 questioned, and we were sticking to our story we going to

6 Guatemala or someplace else.

And I can't remember now, and

7 Rolando was in Spain and my mother called him and he came over

8 and he got us out.

9

• Mr. Hornbeck. Was there any particular reason he was in

10 Spain at that time?

11

Mr. Espinosa. He was a playboy.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. It had nothing to do with Castro?

13

Mr. Espinosa. No. He went over there to have a good

14 time, and so actually the threat that he made,. "Call me and I

15 will help you," and my mother called him and he came

over and

• 16 he got us out.

17

, Mr. Hornbeck.

After your period in the United States,

18 did you have any contreet with him?

19

•Mr. Espinosa. No. The only time I had contact was when

20. I told you that I went to Paris and these people contacted me.

21 Mr. Hornbeck. I am going to get to that,

and I want to

22 establish. whether or not, during the years that you were

in

23 the United States and training for the Bay of Pigs and were in

24 New York, that you had no direct contact with him and did you

25. have any indirect contact through mutual friends?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

HH 53080 DooId: 32248213 Page 73

Barten Orbeet

---

## Page 74

6.1

Mr. Espinosa. lever.

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately what year did you do to

2

3

Spain?

4

Mr. Espinosa. I went to Spain -- you mean now, in the

5 last few

years?

6

Mir. Hornbeck. No.

7

Mr. Espinosa. I

never went to spain. I told you the

8

other day.

9

Mir. Hornbeck. Approximately what

year did you go to

10

Paris?

11

Mr. Espinosa. I went to Paris in 1964 or 1965.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. Would it help you to know --

13

Mr. Espinosa. I think it was 1964 or :65.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. would it refresh your nemory that,

15 according to government records, you came to New York and

16 first contacted Immigration sometime approximately in June or

17 thereabouts in 1965?

18

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Now would your New York trip then help

20 your memory as to when you first went to paris?

21. Mr. Espinosa. Well, I came back to New York from Paris

22 and I contacted them immediately, and so this must have been

23. five days before or six days before.

24

Mr: Hornbeck. Can you tell us why you went to Paris?

25

Mr. Espinosa. No. It was just a trip and. I went to

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY; INC

HH 53080

DocId:32248213 Page ThathctreeT&

---

## Page 75

62

1 Paris.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. You were engaged at that time in no anti-

3 Castro activities?

4

Mir. Espinosa.

Nothing.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. You were not working for the CIA at that

6

time?

7

Mr. Espinosa. No.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately when did you end your

9 services or employment with the CIA?

10

Mr. Espinosa. I would say in the end of 1951.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. When you arrived in Paris, did you have a

12 contact who gave you some information about Cubela?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14:

Mr. Hornbeck. What was the name of that contact?.

15

Mr. Espinosa. Jose Irasancos.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. How long had you known Jose Irascancos?

17

Mr. Espinosa. All of my life.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. What was his position in Paris at the time

19 that you met him in 1965?

20

Mr. Espinosa. He was working at the Cuban Consulate:

Mr. Hornbeck. How long had he been with the Cuban

22 Consulate in Paris, if you know?

23

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know, but for a couple of years or

24 three at the time.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. I assume by the fact that he was working

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

N 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 357hSTREFT SW REPORTERS RIDING WASHINGTON ME AND INDIRE DONE

---

## Page 76

53

abroad in the Cuban Consulate that he enjoyed some confidence

2 with the Castro government?

3

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know about that. I think at the

4 time the government wasn't established enough to really clamp

5 down on the people that they should or should not have in

their consulates, and there were so many things to put

I together over there and it was a very bad situation, and

8: otherwise, he wouldn't have been there and they hadn't clamped

9 down.

10 Mr. Hornbeck. What information did he relate to you that

11 involved Rolando Cubela?

12

Mr. Espinosa. He told me that he had seen Cubela in

13 Paris; that there was something going on but he didn't want to

14 tell me, and he wanted

somebody else to tell me the whole

15 thing.

16. Mr. Hornbeck. Is there some reason why he didn't want to

17 relate the

story to you?

18

Mir. Espinosa. Because he didn't know much about it but

19. he knew they had tried to get ahold of me but le said,

20 "Rolando is involved with the CIA and there is something

21 happening, and I think you should see Robreno. "

22

Mir. Hornbeck.

could you identify Robreno for us,

as to

23 who he is and where he was from and what was your relationship

24 with him.

25

Mr. Espinosa. His name is George Robreno and he is a

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC,

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Paye: 3607th STREET, SW. REPORTERS BUILDING: WASHINGTON: D.C. 20024 1202) 554-2345

---

## Page 77

54

1 punk.

ir. Hornbeck, When you say "punk," do you mean he had

3 some criminal background?

4

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know, but he is a delinquent, let

5 us put it that way. I am not a full-time delinquent as he is.

6 He was involved with the student movement in Havana and he

7 knew Rolando very well.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. When you were describing him as a

9 delinquent, do you mean he would engage in crime or do

anything for money; or what is it?

11

Mr. Espinosa. He was a bad boy; and do you know what a

12 bad boy is? He was a bad boy. When he used to be a kid, if

13. there was a blind man crossing a street with a stick, he would

14 take the stick from the

blind man, is that right? That is the

15 kind of thing he would do when he was a kid and man, what he

16 grew up to be.

17

He was with Castro's government and he was at one point

18 the head of sone revolutionary tribunals and he carried. out a

19 lot of death sentences.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. What was he doing at the time that you

21 heard his name in 1965?

22

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know what he was doing in Madrid,

23 but I know that he had gotten into so many problens with the

24 government in Cuba that they just said, "Okay," and they put

25 him into prison for something, and I don't know exactly what

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

---

## Page 78

65

1 it was, and they said, "Okay, either you stay here forever. or.

2 you leave the country and we don't want you here anymore.

3

Mr. Hornbeck.

He was living in Madrid at the time you

4 were in Paris?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

And when Rolando started his thing

with the CIA, I guess he was talking to him, too.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. How

were you going to meet him? were you

going to do to Spain?

9

Mr. Espinosa. I

was going to go to Spain. At the time I

10

had one of his alien American

passports, since I never had my

11 own passport because the Spanish government, it would take

12 them a month --

13

Mr. Hornbeck.

So the CIA originally took your passport

14 from you?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. Here you in touch with the cIa

at all when

17 you were in Paris?

18

Mr. Espinosa. No.

19

20

Mr. Hornbeck. All right. So you did not get to Spain?

Mr. Espinosa. I didn't get to Spain. And I called him

21 on the telephone and I said "I am sending you a ticket.

Come

22 over and see me in Paris." And he was the first one who told

23 me the story.

24

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you just relate to us, in summary,

25. what he told you about this particular involvement of Cubela?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

14 53080 DocId:32240213 Page 78

---

## Page 79

66

Mr. Espinosa. That Cubela had been talking to some CIA

2 people; that there was goind to be an uprising or a coup or

3 something down in Cuba led by Cubela and a few other people

4 who were in the

government at the time, or in the army, and

that for some reason Cubela didn't trust williamson in Spain.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you identify who williamson was?

7

Mr. Espinosa. What I had been led to believe, williamson

8 was head of the CIA in Spain at the time.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Was there

a reason given to you as to why

10: Cubela did not trust him?

11

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.. He said to me that he was living --

12 first he was an alcoholic and living with this Cuban: girl who

13. had taken information from him, taken files with her and went

14 back to Cuba.

*15

Mr. Hornbeck. This is information that you heard?

16

Mr. Espinosa. This is what they told me; why rolando

17 didn't want to speak to williamson any longer.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. You are getting this information fron

19 Cubela?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. And how much truth is involved in

21. this I can't say. So that. Rolando didn't want to talk to him

22. anymore and that I should come over here as a good CIA man,

23

and I said "I am no longer with the CIA," and they said "we

24 want you to get in touch with them and tell them all of this."

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Now, had your original contact in Paris

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

WH 53080 DecId: 32248213 PAGE AWESTREET EW SCOReTERS RINGING MARCHINGTANd a an ances man

---

## Page 80

67

mentioned to you he thought you were

in the CIA?

2

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

3

Mr. Hornbeck. Had he called you to come to Paris or you

4 just came to Paris independently?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Mo. It was somebody that if I ever went

6

to Paris I was

going to call.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. So Paris was entirely your idea?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Entirely a pleasure trip.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Was there any particular reason why you

10 would spend your own personal money to have Cubela come to

11. Paris from Spain?

12

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Still, you know, I think $150 or

sonething, for something as important as this, I could send my

14 friend and

my country, it wasn't going to make such a big hole

15. in iny pocket.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. Did Cubela say anything about any Soviets

17 in Cuba during this conversation?

18

Mir. Espinosa. lo. They didn't say anything about

19 Soviets in Cuba, but Blanco -- I cannot remember his first

20

name; we

used to call him the crazy Blanco -- I met him and

21 he was on his way to Cuba from Prague, Czechoslovakia,

and he

22 was on his way from Russia to Cuba via Czechoslovakia and

23 Paris and he was the one who mentioned about the Russian

24 technicians; to make sure and to make sure to tell the CIA

25 that if there was going to be any kind of doublecrossing of

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 80

---

## Page 81

68

this operation, they

were going to take care of these Russian

technicians who were

advisors, or whatever they were, who were

3

in their particular place.

4

Mr. Hornbeck.. All right. How did you know Blanco?

5

iir. Espinosa. I knew him from Cuba.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. And was it just coincidence that blanco

was coming through Paris at the same time that you were there?

8

Mr. Espinosa.. I don't know.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. How did he know how to contact you?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Because anybody who would come to Paris.

will always contact this guy Trasancos; at least this kind of

12 people because we all knew each other from Cuba.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Had Blanco been with you and Cubela in

14 activities prior to 1959?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. When Blanco gave you this particular

17 information about the soviet technicians, was there anyone

18 else present during the conversation?

19

Mir. Espinosa. No, it was only he and I.

• 20

Mr. Hornbeck. Were there any conversations between you,

21. Blanco and Robreno in Paris?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. And no conversations between you, Blanco,

24

and Irasancos?

25

Mr. Espinosa.

No. But there were conversations between

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

WW 53080 DOCId:32248213 Paye BEN THATREET EW REPORTERS RIDING WASHINATAN DIE MORA INDISEA DRAS

---

## Page 82

69

1

Cubela, Trasancos and myself.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us what the conversation is?

3

Mr. Espinosa. The one I mentioned before, everything

4. that Cubela told me about the

CIA and Williamson in Spain he

5 said to me

in

front of Trasancos.

6

"r. Hornbeck.

Is your

testimony that there was then an

7 agreement between the three of you that cubela needed to

8 change his CIA contact?

9

Mr. Espinosa. I didn't agree to anything. All I said,

10 was they landed the story on me in

the middle of my Parisian

11 vacation, and

because it was Rolando and it was something that

12 I could have some importance or sense in the future, I came

•13 over here and I contacted them the best way I could.

14

fir. Hornbeck. In other words, you were going to be the

15 messenger for the contacts they felt that they didn't have?

16

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, more or less, that was the idea.

Mr. Hornbeck. And you then traveled from Paris to Mew

18 York?

19

Mr. Espinosa. That

is right.

20

Mir. Hornbeck. And who pays for your ticket?

21

Mr. Espinosa. If I go to Paris and I live in the States,

22 I have to have a round-trip ticket.

23 Mr. Hornbeck. What I am getting at, so you understand

24 the purpose of the deposition, we have to ask as much detail

25

as possible, and what I am really getting at is whether ör not

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

HH 53080 : DocId: 32248213: Page. 82

---

## Page 83

70

1 the cIA paid for any part of this operation.

2

Mr. Espinosa. Ho. I went to London and then to Paris

3

and then to come back to New York 15 days later, and this

4 happened

when I was there, and I

came back to new York on my

5 ticket originally purchased by me, and I was never refunded by

6 CIA or any other government agency.

7

got to New York and I contacted Mr. Cavasantos.

8

Mr. Hornbeck.. He was an officer with the Immigration

9 Service?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. And you had some previous relationship; is

12 that true?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us briefly what that was?

15

Mr. Espinosa. He lifted two bans against traveling, and

16 all the things that I mentioned before.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. You first contacted him, and what did you

18

tell him?

19

Mr. Espinosa. I said, "I have to contact someone in the

20 CIA, and of course I have no idea how to contact anybody."

21

So he said, "Okay." He picked up the telephone and he

22 called somebody in the FBI office in New York and he sent me

23

to see this fellow.

•24

Mr. Hornbeck. This is first the FbI?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 83

---

## Page 84

71

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you so to the FBI office or did the

2

agents come to see you?

3

4

Mr. Espinosa. I went to the FBI office.

Mr. Hornbeck. How many agents did you talk to?

5

Mr. Espinosa. I talked to one fellow.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. How much of the cubela's story that you

7.. learned in Paris did you relate to him?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Nothing.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. What did you tell him, basically?

10

Mr. Espinosa. I told hin, I guess he must have spoken to

11

Cavasantos before, and I said, "Look, I just came from Europe;

there is something happening and I would have to contact

13 someone in the CIA, and I used to work for them and I was

14 involved in the Bay of Pigs. Anything you want to check what

15 I am telling you, you can check with that."

16

ir. Hornbeck. Did you mention Cubela's name to either

17 Cavasantos or to the FBI?

18

Mr. Espinosa. Maybe; I can't say for sure, but maybe.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Your best memory is that you did not

20 discuss much of the details?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. At some point were you put in contact with

23

the CIA?

24

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us where the meeting took.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

HH 53080 • DocId:32248213 Page 84

---

## Page 85

:72

place and how many people were present?

2

Mr. Espinosa. The meeting took place at the FBI office

in New York, and there was only one person present.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. This is someone from the Agency?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Again, I assume he was.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Could you physically describe this

7

individual?

8

Mir. Espinosa. Yes. He was a man in the late forties or

9 early fifties, gray hair, and he must have been

blond, but

10 very heavy gray at the time, and blue eyes.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. Glasses?

12

Mr.

Espinosa. No glasses. Very well fit and very

13 handsome guy.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately how tall and how much did'he

15 weigh?

16

Mr. Espinosa. He was, I would say, about 5'10 or 5'11

17 170 pounds.

18

Mir. Hornbeck. During your conversation with this

19

individual, did you relate all of the details of the

20 information that you had learned in Paris?

21

Mr. Espinosa. I did.

22

r. Hornbeck. Did you include the portion told you by

23 Blanco about the alternative plan with the soviet technicians?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. What reaction, if any, did you get from

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

MY 53080 DocId:32218213 Page &dozhSTREET:S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 12021, 554-2345 :

---

## Page 86

73

1

this particular individual?

2

Mr. Espinosa. He was a very cool, composed man, and he

3 said "I am going to washington and I will contact you

In the

next couple of days or three, maybe, and maybe we will go to

5 Spain together or somebody will go with you."

6

I was so upset about this that I

got a friend of mine in

7 New York, through Senator Javits, to get me a meeting in

8

washington here with some sub-secretary of foreign affairs in

9 charge of the cuban thing, and I never heard from this guy and

10 time was

going by, and I told this friend of mine and through

11 Javits he got me to come here and see this guy, and I came

12 here and I told him the whole story. And he said, "We will

13

get in touch with you. "

and they never did.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you have any idea who it was that you

15 met with in washington?

16

Mr. Espinosa. No.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever keep a diary or on a card?

18

Mr. Espinosa. I could

find out eventually if I wanted

19

to.

20

• Mr. Hornbeck. Do you think that you might be able to do

21 that?

22

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes. I would have to call this guy and

23

have him call Javits and trace the thing back to the time when

24 it happened, but I am sure it can be traced.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you remember the building where you

ALDERSON RÉPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Paye 890 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS. BUILDING, WASHINGTON; D.C: 20024: (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 87

1 came to in Nashington

to speak with this particular

2 individual?

3

Mr. Espinosa. Mo.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Your best memory is that it was some

5 official in the State Department?

6

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, it was some official in the State

7 Departient; some kind of sub-secretary or something in charge

8. of Cuban affairs. But I was there and he didn't put me on to

9 some monkey room.

I know I saw somebody, the right person.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. I assume that you did.wait. the. two or

11 three

days in New York before you contacted your friend to

12 reach Senator Javits?

13

Mr. Espinosa. I waited longer than that. I

waited a

14 couple of weeks and nothing happened, and then I got in touch

15. with this guy because I knew he is very friendly with javits,.

and I said, "I know you have friends in washington, and all of

17 that, and there is something that I have to discuss."

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever think about contacting the

19 CIA directly through one ai your old contacts?

20

Mr. Espinosa. I never had any contacts.

What contacts?

21

They are guys living in Miami for two or three or four months,

22 and one day they disappear, and "Freddy Gomez," and you never.

23 see him again, and maybe he is sent to Guatemala or Central

24 Europe, or whatever, and then you see another guy and you

25 don't call them. They call you.

ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY, INC;

HH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 8507th STREET, S.W. REPÖRTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345.

---

## Page 88

75.

Mr. Hornbeck. was there any bad

feeling between you and

2 the Agency when

you terminated your relationship with them in

1961?

3

4

Mir. Espinosa.

I don't know. From my part it was a lot

5 of bad feeling.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. You felt you had not been treated fairly

7 by the Agency?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Not me. I felt a lot of people got killed

9 for nothing.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. All right. After you came to washington

"1 and discussed this particular situation, what was the next

12 thing that you did?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Let me make a parenthesis now.

This guy,

14 one of the reasons why I assumed he must have been from the

15 CIA, is when I touched the thing about George Robreno,

16 immediately he said to me, "El Maga," this is like

a' name that

17 only people that are close to him or that know

him very well

18 or from the Agency would know his name.

19

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Could you spell that?

Mr. Espinosa. M-a-g-a. It is magician in English.

And

21

he didn't have any accent when he said "El Maga."

22.

Mr. Hornbeck: You are discussing the conversation with

23 the fellow you

assumed

to be from the Agency in New York when

24 you first arrived?

25

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.. And he was saying to me, "How much

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 8807th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 89

7:6

1 do you trust what he said?" and I said You know how he is!

2 And he said, "Yes, I know how he is," but the guy knew the

3 background of him.

4

Mr. Mornbeck.: When you mentioned Blanco, did the

individual you assumed to have been from the Agency come up

6 with his nickname?

7

Mr. Espinosa.. No.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. Did he act as though he knew who you were

9 talking about?

10

Mr. Espinosa. No.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. Did he ask you for any identifying

• 12 information about Blanco?

13

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. During this time then that you were in

15 Washington in 1965, did you ever contact Mike NoLaney to see

16 if he could help in some fashion?

17 .

Mr. Espinosa. I would have contacted Mike McLaney to

18 help me in other things, but not to get me in contact with the

19 CIA.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you contact Mike MoLaney for any

21 social or personal reasons?

-22

Mr. Espinosa. At that time, no. For sure, every time I

23 went to Miami, and all of the time I lived in the States,

•24 every time I went to Miami I contacted Mike; every time. But

25 I contacted him socially to have a drink or go whoring around.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

MH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page B90.7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345 :

---

## Page 90

7.7

1 or something; nothing to do up to that

second attempt with the

2 plane, and that was

it.

3

Mr. Hornbeck.

Dia you return to lew York then after your

4

washington trip?

5

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

6

Mr. Hornbeck.. Did you receive any contact fron any

7

government agency?

8

Mr. Espinosa. No.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. And that includes the FBI?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

11

Mr. Hornbeck. So you did not hear from the FBI?.

12

Mr. Espinosa. No.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. How long did you stay in New York, if you

14 can estimate?

15

Mr. Espinosa. I left lew York in 1967.

•16

Mr. Hornbeck. So jou spent the next approximately two

17 and a half years in New York?

18

Mr. Espinosa. No. I would say the next two years in New

i9 York, because this was June or July of 1965, and I left in

20. March or Arpil of 1967; so a little bit less than a year.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you have any contact directly or

22 indirectly with Cubela during the time that you were in New

23 York?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you hear from Blanco or Robreno or

HH 53080. DoOId:32248213: Pade 90

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

AthenT CIA. ÖEOnOTERC RIDING WASHINATON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 91

78

1 your contact in Paris?

2

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

Robreno wrote me a

letter one.time

3 asking me to put my name

to a document, and ne. wanted to get a

4. visa to come to the States and he wanted me to sponsor hin and

5 he needed two sponsors.

And he wrote me a letter

on a paper,

6 and I signed my name to the sponsorship, and that is the only

7 time.

8

ir. Hornbeck. Did he actually arrive, to your knowledge?

9

Mr. Espinosa. No, they never gave him a visa.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Until the time that Cubela was arrested,

11 did you have any information about him personally or about the

12 particular plot person?

13

Mr. Espinosa. Nothing whatsoever. In my mind I thought,

14 well, probably he dot wise to the whole thing and just dropped

15 it, because sonie time elapsed between

the time

that I spoke to

16 his people in Paris and until the CIA

and the time he got

17 caught in Cuba.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Was your first knowledge that he was

19 arrested from

some public source or from a parsonal source?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Public source.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell what that was?

22

Mr.

Espinosa. It was a newspaper.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you recognize the names of other

24 persons arrested with him?

25

Mr. Espinosa. I recognized the name of Blanco,

and there

HH 53080

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

DocId: 32248213 Page 91uo 7h STREET: S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 92

79.

1

was somebody else arrested.

And

the first thing I read about

2 it, there were four people arrested, and I knew Blanco and I

3 didn't know the others.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. I am sure then if you have the

public

accounts of that trial, you know that cubela was not executed,

and

did you

rind

that a strange event?

7

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes and no.

8

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us why "yes" and "no"?

Mr. Espinosa. "Yes, " because, to my knowledge, Castro

10

had never commuted anybody's death sentence in Cuba yet, and

11 on the other hand, I knew he liked the guy very much.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. It was a

personal relationship.between

13 Cubela and Castro?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Whatever it was, love, hate, or the

15 faggots --I don't know what it was -- but they had a

16 relationship, an especial relationship between them.

17

Mir. Hornbeck. Can you give us any examples of a special

18 relationship between the two?

19

Mir. Espinosa. Well, I remember one time when Rolando

20 pulled a gun on Castro in

front of his bodyguards and

21 everything and called him every name in the book, and of

22 course nobody moved or said anything, but I thought when this

23

is over, he is going to go to the can forever, and

nothing

24 happened to him.

25

Mir. Hornbeck. I take it this is sometime still in 1959?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

IN 53080 DocId: 32248213- Page 92

---

## Page 93

80

Mr. Espinosa. This was at that time, and he just put his

2 arm on him and he said "You have such a temper" and talked him

3 out of everything.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Would you describe Cubela as an individual

5 having a very quick temper or very emotional person?.

6

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, extremely.

7

8

Mr. Hornbeck: Nould you describe him as unstable?

Mr. Espinosa: Yes.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Have you directly or indirectly received

10 any information about Cubela since the time that he was sent

11 to prison in Cuba?

12

Mr. Espinosa.. No.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you have any information whether or not

14 he is still alive or anything?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. What I hear is that he is alive and

16 he is working

as a doctor and he is not having such a bad

17 life.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. How would you get this kind of

19

information?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Because I can't remember now, I think I

21 had this from Trasancos in Paris, but there is some kind of -

22 I don't know if he was a diplomat or if he is a French

23

engineer who is working in some kind of project in Cuba or was

24. working in some kind of a project in Cuba, and I know that

25 this person knew Cubela

s mother and

somehow news. of him has

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC.

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 980 7th STREET S.W. REPORTERS BÜILDING WASHINGTON DC 20024 /2531 554.2245.

---

## Page 94

8.1

1 gone back and forth to Europe from Cuba. I hear he is working

2 as a doctor and the beginning was very tough, and then heis

3 working as a doctor and he is not having it so bad; but he is

4 alive and he is in prison.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. Were you told of the method by which

6 Cubela was supposed to assassinate Castro?

7

Mr. Espinosa. No. I heard the story about the rifle and

8 the telescopic site, and I had a story that he had met Artine,

9 which of course I thought was stupid of him, and I had a story

10: that Artime had promised him some boats through the cIA to get

11 him out.

12

I repeat to you today what I said the other day, the

13 whole thing doesn't make sense to me. And on one hand I hear

14 this, and of course it is very difficult to judge something

15 when you are being told by third parties, and on the one hand

16 I hear that there is

going to be an insurrection, let others

17 call it that way, or a military uprising of certain people in

18 the country, and on the other hand I hear that Cubela is going

19 to shoot the guy. And if you are going to shoot the guy and

20 there is going to be an insurrection, why do you need some

21 boats to take you out?

22

once you do that you have to stay in and see it through.

23 And you follow me, if there is going to be an insurrection and

24 you are going

to be a leader, how the hell are you going to

25 shoot the guy and tanks are going through the streets and

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

WW 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 94

---

## Page 95

$2

1 you are going to take a boat and leave the country?

2

There are

a number of things that I tried to be very

3 logical about, and I try to be a very logical person all of

4 the time, but especially when they are logical, I try to be

5 more logical and I am objective about things. I don't

6. understand it.

7

Mr. Hornbeck.

When you heard these stories about Artime

8 being involved, or a rifle with a scope being involved, what

9 was the source of that information?

10

Mr. Espinosa. This I heard from Robreno.

: 11

Mr. Hornbeck. Was this during the same discussions

in

12 Paris before New York?

13 : Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Did Rubreno know Artime, to your

15 knowledge?

16 Mir. Espinosa. I don't know. I think maybe he was with

.17 Rolando when he had the meeting with

Artime; maybe, but I

am

18 not sure. But I know they had never been friends before.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Are you saying your information from

20: Rubreno was that Artime met in Madrid with Cubela?

21 Mr. Espinosa. I can't remember if it was Madrid, but

22 positively that he had met cubela.

23

Mr. Hornbeck, Nas your information that the CIA ad

24 arranged this meeting, or did you have any knowledge of the

25 CIA at that time?

NH 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 95

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

---

## Page 96

8.3

1

Mr. Espinosa. No. He told me that he had been in touen

2 with the CIA and he had been in touch with Artime, but at the

3

moment I

was led to believe it was the CIA who had arranged

4 the meeting, and I would have been surprised if that was so:

5

Mr. Hornbeck. I want to be very specific as to the

6 information

that you

are getting from Rooreno and from any

7 other source.

8

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. So just getting back to what he told you,

10 Robreno says to you, on the one hand Cubela has been in touch

11 with williamson from the CIA, and he also tells you Cubela has

12 met with Artime,

and you are not sure whether Rubreno tells

13 you that Cubela and Artime met in Madrid. Is that a correct

14 summary?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes. He told me that they met; but I

16 can't remember whether it was in Madrid or another place.

17

Mr. Hornbeck, Was there anything about the use of a

18 rifle and a silencer by Cubela that you would have found

19. strange in an assassination plot to kill Castro?

20

Mr. Espinosa. I would have found it very strange because

21 Castro is a touch guy and you can never hunt him with a rifle

22 in the sense you never know where he is going to be or which

23 street he is going to be passing through. So I would think it

24

is very, very uniakely, and especially Reiando knows this very

25 well, better than I do, that this is a kind of a

guy that

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

HH 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 96

---

## Page 97

:8:4

1

is practically impossible to

hunt with a rifle.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. would the special relationship you

3. discussed

vefore between Castro and Cubela have presented some

special opportunities for Cubela?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Incredibly special opportunities;

6 exceptionally special.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you give us something on that?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Let us say one day Rolando could find out

9 that Castro was in his home outside Havana, and he could have

10 gone over there at a day or night, and even at 5:00 o'clock in

11 the morning and tell the guards "I am going to see Castro,"

12 and they would have let him in without objection.

13

Nandez

Mr. Blackmer. You were friends with Carlos Hermanes?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

15

Mr. Blackmer. You went on two raids with

him

them that were

16 aborted and you trained with him in Panama and Guatemala. Did

17 you recognize that he had a special relationship with Manuel

18 Artime?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

20

Mr. Blackmer.

Do you know the extent of that?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

22

Mr. Blackmer. You personally disliked Artime; is that

23 correct?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mr. Blackmer. Did you personally know him?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WH 53080 DocId: 32218213 Page 97

---

## Page 98

85

vir. Espinosa. Not very much, I know him. I trained him,

2 in away.

3

vir. Blackmer. You were training in Guatemala, I

4

understand?

5

Mr. Espinosa. And in Panama. And he came to Panama, and

I was assigned

to give him the demolition training, a crash

7 course in demolition. So I was in touch with him for a few

8 days, closely, and I didn't think much of him, really. And do

9 you want me to tell you the story about that?

10

Mr. Blackmer. I don't think that that will be necessary.

11

What was the feeling generally among the exiles that you

12 had contact with about Artime and his position with the CIA?

13

Mr. Espinosa. It was about the same.

14

Mr. Blackmer. what is

that?

15

Mr. Espinosa. They disliked the idea that a puppet was

16 being imposed on them.

17

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever discuss this with carlos, his

18 relationship with Artime?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No, not really.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Did

you ever talk to Robreno about your

21

dislike or distrust for Artime?

22

Mr. Espinosa. Mo.

23

Mr. Blackmer. Did you distrust Artime also?

24

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

25

Mr. Blackmer. Do you think he was personally motivated

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NH 53080

DocId:32248213 Page 98

---

## Page 99

änd not patriotically motivated?

2

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

3

Mr. Blackmer. Did you trust Hobreno?

4

Mr. Espinosa. When it comes to something I had to do

with Cubela, I would trust him.

6

Mr. Blackmer. You think he would not have told Fidel

7 about Rolando's working with the CIA?

8

ir. Espinosa. He was very loyal to Cubela.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Where were his loyalties with respect to

10

Castro?

11

12

Mr. Espinosa. No, he is not by nature a very loyal

person or very legal person, but Cubela was

like his hero.

13

Mr. Blackner. Are you familiar with an individual named

14 Orlando Bosch?

15

Mr. Espinosa..No.

16

Mr. Blackmer. Dr. Orländo Bosch?

17

Mr. Espinosa. No. I have heard about him.

18

Mr. Blackmer.

lave you had any contact with him at all?

19

Mr. Espinosa.. No.

20

Mr. Blackmer. Had you heard that he might have been

nuthing

21 operating in this country during 1963

youtheard

22 about any of his activities in this country at that time?

23

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

JulIo

Mr. Blackmer. Did you know an individual named euro

25 Lobo in Havana?

NH 53080: DocId:32248213 Page 99

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY "INC.

---

## Page 100

87

1

Nr. Espinosa.

Yes.

2

Mr. Blackmer.

what is the extent of your knowledge of

3

him?

4

Mr. Espinosa.. A friend of mine was married to a niece of

5 his, and I have

seen the guy three or four times in my life.

6

Mr. Blackmer, Was he active in any of the groups in

7

Havana?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Not that I linow of.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know if he was active in any of the

10 Cuban exile

movements?

11 Mr. Espinosa. I heard that the guy is giving money, but

12 personally I was never involved with anything that he

13 contributed to or anything like that.

14 Mr. Blackmer. Have you ever heard of an individual named

15 Ricardo KlavarRereMorales?

16

Mr. Espinosa. It sounds familiar, but I can't see, the

17 face. But it sounds familiar.

18

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know what you would have heard him

19 in connection with?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No.

21

Have you got a picture of hin or anything?

22

Mr. Blackmer. No:

23

24

would he have been a hired killergand assassin?

Mr. Espinosa.

When you mentioned the name,

it is not so

25 much Morales, but the first name, it rings a bell, but i can't

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

14 53080

DocId: 32248213 Page 100

annsa 10071.551-2215

---

## Page 101

88

see it.

2

tir. Blackmer. Could he have been active with you in the

3

anti-Batista movement with you or with someone else?

4

Nr. Espinosa. I don't know. I can't place the guy, and

5

SO

if I can't place the guy --

6

Mr. Blackmer. How about David Morales?

7

Mir. Espinosa. lo.

8

vir. Blackmer. Monkey Morales?

9

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

10

11

Mr. Blackmer. Have you ever heard of an individual named

Antonio Vassa

VeCIANA:

12

Mr. Espinosa. No.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Are you familiar with Alhpa 66?

14

Mr. Espinosa. I have heard of it.

15

ir. Blackmer. Do you have any information about one of

16 the founders or leaders?

17

Mir. Espinosa. No.

18

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know an individual or have you

19 heard of an individual named Morris Bishop?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No.

21

Mr. Blackmer. When you were in Cuba in 1957, 153, and

22 '59, have you had any contact with Santiago, Cuba, or did you

23.

ever go there?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25

Mr. Blackmer. Are you familiar with a corporation named

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

WW 53080 DocId:32248213. Page IRTHSTREET SW REPORTERS RIDINE MASHINCTAN DIE MASA IANDICERDAIE

---

## Page 102

8.9

Mausay Mining Company?

2

ir. Espinosa. lio.

3

Mr. Blackner. Once again, you did meet Frank Sturgis in

4. Miami.

were you

aware of Frank Sturgis at all in Havana right

5 around the time Castro took over?

6

Mr. Espinosa. No:

7

Mr. Blackner. You mentioned that you are familiar

with

8 Pedro Diaz Lanz.

Did you know in 195ö he was appointed head

9 of the cuban Air Force by Castro?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

11

Mr. Blackmer. And at the same time and somewhat later,

12 he appointed Sturgis as a director of security for the air

13 force?

14

Mr: Espinosa. I didn't know that.

15

Mr. Blackmer. You were not aware of that at

all?

16

Mr. Espinosa. Not until just right now.

17

Mr. Blackner. Sturgis also had a relationship with some

18 of the casinos in Havana and was frequently seen at these

19 casinos. Do you recall, if you think back, whether you might

20 have seen him?

21

Mr. Espinosa. No.

22

Mr. Blackmer. Not whatsoever?

23

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

24

Mr. Blackmer. When you were going on these various raids

Fronthe

Keys, as we discussed, three or four raids after the Bay

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPÁNY, INC;

IN 53080 DOcId: 32248213 Page 102

---

## Page 103

90

1 of Pigs, did you ever come in contact with an individual named

2 wallace Shanley?

3

Mr. Espinosa. No.

4

Mr. Blacker. He would nave

been with the government,

5 either Imnigration or Custons?

6

Mir. Espinosa. No.

7

Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever come in contact with any

8 Americans with Customs or Immigration and Naturalization?

9

Mr. Espinosa. No.

10

Mir. Blackmer. When you were in the June 15th detention

11 from the attempted raid, I understand they seized a 1957

12 Thunderbird belonging to your aunt.

13

Nr. Espinosa. Yes.

14

Mr. Blackmer. And you took legal action against customs.

15

Mr. Espinosa. No, they got the car two years later.

16

Mr. Blackmer. You did not go through an attorney?

17

Mr. Espinosa. Maybe they did, I don't know.

18

Mr. Blackmer. You don't recall that?

19

20

Mr. Espinosa.

No, I didn't.

Mr. Blackmer. When we were talking the other day about

the two raids, we were talking about the June 15th raid,

22 whether it was just an aborted

attempt, but you are dealing

23 with a twin engine Beachcraft airplane where you were going to

24 make these homemade bombs and you were using dynamite.

25

Mr. Espinosa. No, we were using --

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WH 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 0@7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 104

-

9.1

Mr. Blackmer. TNT?

2

Mr. Espinosa. 1o.

He were using napalm.

3

Mr. Blackmer. You had just run special wires out on the

wings of the plane and you were going over there, and didn't

5: that seem kind of a gumshoe operation, rather a shoddy.

6 operation?

7

Mr. Espinosa. I agree with you.

8

Mr. Blackmer. Did you feel that someone planning it

9 never meant it to be made?

10

Mr. Espinosa. Because the person who was sponsoring it :

11

was Mike, and he gave us a means to do it and he didn't get

12 the right bombs and we didn't get the right things; he is not

13

an expert in explosives or in planes.

14.

• Mr. Blackmer. But you are?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

16

Mr. Blackmer. And you couldn't do any better than

a twin

17 engine Beachcraft?

18

Mr. Espinosa. Well, we didn't ask for any better and we

19 were afraid to ask for a B-25 or B-26.

20

Mr. Blackmer. On the first one, but on the second one

21 you did?

22

Mr: Espinosa. Yes, because he warmed up to the idea.

23

Mr. Blackmer. You are talking about the cost.

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, it was a lot of money.

25

Mr. Blackmer. Quite a lot more for the é-25 than the

HH 53080 DocId:32248213

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

Pave 104

MAMMeTOCT CH GEOReTIRE RIGG MAGHINGTON DiP DANA 12021.554-2245

---

## Page 105

9.2

Beachcraft.

2

Mir. Espinosa. You have to buy it, and it.is not very

3 easy to rent a B-25, especially the ones with the right bombs

4 and

the whole thing.

5

Mr. Blackmer. The plane you were going to take, the Ba25

6 at Ponchartrain, to your knowledge, was @ fully operational with

7 bomb bay doors?

8

Mr. Espinosa. I insisted that the bonb racks were in

9 there or I wasn't going to do anything with it.

10

Mr. Blackmer. To your knowledge, you do not know where

11 this plane was going to be obtained or who was going to get

12 it?

13

Mr. Espinosa. No. I heard things about Arizona and I

14 heard they were flying the plane from Canada, and I heard that

15 the plane was going to be flown from south America, and I

16 heard

all of this.

17

I told Mike, "I don't want to hear anything; we don't

18 want to know, we don't want to know."

19

Mr. Blackmer. You just told Mike to get the plane?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

21

Mr. Blackmer. Do you assume he went through Sam Benton

22

to get the plane?

23

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

24

Mr. Blackmer. That was the first time?

25

Mir. Espinosa. And I wouldn't be surprised if he went

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

WW 53080 DocId: 32218213 Page 4857h STREET,S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 106

:93

1

through nim the second time.

2

Mr. Blackmer. Who else was

aware of these

operations

3 aside fron the group participating, Benton and MoLarey and

4 yourself?

5

Mr. Espinosa. Nell, I imagine their wives

or girl

6 friends and

everybody in the operation.

7

8

Mr.

Blackmer. Specifically, any Americans?

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

9

Mr. Blackmer. Any members of the CIA?

10

11

Mr. Espinosa.

No, for Christ's sake, of course not

Mr. Blackmer. But no other Americans other than Benton?

12

Mr. Espinosa. I wouldn't say Benton.. I knew Mike, and

13

if he used Benton, I don't know.

14

Mr. Blackmer. Did you have a meeting in June at the home

15 of Mike MeLaney and yourself and say you were discussing this

16 operation, and was there someone present?

17

Mir. Espinosa. Miguel Alvarez.

18

19

Mr. Blackmer. Nas Benton

present?

Mr. Espinosa. I can't remember. I am not trying to --

20

Mr. Blackmer. Our files indicate that Benton gave the

21 story that he was just there to take pictures and he was there

22 for publicity, and after the raid was successiul you weré

23 going to play up the publicity aspect of it. Was there

any

24 truth of sit to that story?

25

•Mr. Espinosa.. The first raid or the second one?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

NW 53080 DocId:32248213 Page ⅓Afth STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202:554-2345

---

## Page 107

9:4

Mr. Blackmer. The first one.

2

Nr. Espinosa. I was

never aware they were going to take

3

any pictures.

4

Mr. Blackmer.

what was his role?

5

Mir. Espinosa. As

far as I know, the first time he was to

• 6

rent the plane.

7

Mr. Blackmer. That is

all?

8

Mr. Espinosa. That is all.

No

9

Mr. Blackmer. And when you were detained by the FBI

10 Customs at the

site, where were you coning from and how were

11 you to meet?

12

Mr. Espinosa. You mean over there, in that strip where

13. the Beachcraft was? I was coming from my aunt's house in that

14 Thunderbird, with the napalm, or whatever it was, and I was

15 getting there

to be with the rest of the guys and to take

16

over.

17

Mr. Blackmer. You were to meet the plane?

18

Mr. Espinosa.. Yes.

19

Mr. Blackmer. And who was bringing the plane?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Alpizar.

21

Mr. Blackmer. Do you know a person named William Pawley?

22 You never heard of William Pawley?

23

Mr. Espinosa. An American?

24

Mr. Blackmer. Living in Miami, and he is a war hero

25 from world war II and worked with the Flying Tigers and'

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

NH 53080 DocId:32218213 Page 1477h STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024-(202) 554-2345

---

## Page 108

95

1 General Chenault, and also had a business in cuba, head of a

2 bus system

in cuba and then in Miami, and he was very active

3

in the anti-castro activities.

4

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

5

Mr. Blackmer. You never heard of him?

6

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

7

Mr. Blackmer. I have no further questions.

8

Mr: Hornbeck. You mentioned the casino industry in'

9. Havana pre-1959. I believe that you frequented some casinos

10

11

and that is now you met Mike McLaney; is that correct?

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

12,

Mr. Hornbeck. In addition to the Nacional, did you

13 frequent any of the other casinos?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.: I used to go out in the evening; all

15 of the guys. He would go to one and then to another one;

16 especially because of the showgirls, really.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. During the time that you were going to the

18 various casinos,.did.you come to know some of the casino

19

owners?

20

:Mir. Espinosa. I was pointed out, like I told you the

21 other day, for example, George Raft was there, 'and then I saw

22 one guy, I think it was white or snow.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Larry Snow?

24

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

25

Mr. Hornback.

Did you know Dino Cellini?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

MY 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 4897hSTREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTÓN, D.C. 20024. (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 109

96

Mir. Espinosa.

lio.

2

ir. Hornbeck. Eddie Cellini?

3

Mr. Espinosa. No.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. Charles Tourine?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Martin Fox Zamora, at the Iropicana?

7

Mr. Espinosa. This is one that I never went to. I was

there once, but because it was so far away I never went over

9 there.

10

Mr. Hornbeck.

Santos Trafficante?

11

Mr. Espinosa. I have heard of him, but I never met hin.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. Was he ever pointed out to you?

13

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever hear of Santos Trafficante

15 being involved in Miami with any anti-castro activities?

16

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I have heard about that.

17

Mr. Hornbeck. would you tell us what you heard, first of

all, and then perhaps tell us the source of your information?

19

Mr. Espinosa.. Okay. What I have heard is that he

was

20 helping and trying to do something to help some people like.

21 Mike helped me to overthrow Castro.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. When you say helping Mike --

23

Mr. Espinosa. No.

24

Mr. Hornbeck. Do you know of a relationship between

25 Trafficante and Mike McLaney?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 309 STREET, S.W REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON; D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 110

97

1

Mr. Espinosa. No.

2

Mr. Hornbeck. Did Mike NcLaney ever mention Trafficante

3

to you?

4.

Mr. Espinosa.. No.

5

Mr. Hornbeck. Did he ever mention any other American

gambling interests who were

doing the same kind of activity as

7 he was doing with you?

8

Mr. Espinosa. No.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Other people who you may have seen in

10 Cuba; Jake Lansky?

11

Mr. Espinosa. No.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. At the Riviera?

13

Mr. Espinosa. I don't know his first name. And I:

14 remember Lansky, and I remember the name. One time in the

15 Riviera someone saying "That is Meyer Lansky."

16

Mir. Hornbeck. Meyer Lansky?

17

Nr. Espinosa. Yes.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever meet an individual in. Cuba by

19

the name of John Martino? Martino was later arrested by the

20 Castro government and spent several years in jail, and I

21

believe he was released

sometime around 1961.

22

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Guiseppe DeGeorge?

24

Mr. Espinosa. No.

25

Mr. Hornbeck. Reuben Miro?

53080

DocId: 32218213 Page 110

ALDERSON REPORTING.COMPANY, INC;

CHi DEOnOTEOC RINDING WASHINGTON: D.C: 20024. (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 111

93

1

Mr. Espinosa. No.

2

iir. Hornbeck. Mercar Bondo?

3

Mr. Espinosa. We all know him.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. You personally were acquainted with him?

5

Mr. Espinosa. I met him a number of times.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Norman Rothman?

7

Mr. Espinosa. I told john that I sawhim a couple of

8 times in Cuba, and I saw him a couple of times in Miani.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Here you friendly with him personally?

10

Mr. Espinosa. No, I was friendly with his son, with

11. Cappy. Rothman.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. What relationship did you have with Cappy

13

Rothman?

14

Mr. Espinosa. Just the relationship of a man who goes to

15 the bar and has a few drinks, and sometimes

we dated girls

16 together or something.

17

Mr.

Hornbeck. Did you have conversations with his father

18 Norman?

19

Mr. Espinosa. No, never.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever see Cappy Rothman in Miami?

21

Mr. Espinosa. In Miami; I always saw him in Miami.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. Where did you see him?

23

Mr. Espinosa. At the bar that he used to have.

24

• Mr: Hornbeck. That was the Biltmore?

25

Mr. Espinosa. It was some hotel in Miami Beach

HH 53080

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

DocId: 32248213 Page 15d07th STREET,S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 202) 554-2345

---

## Page 112

Mr. Hornbeck. Could that have been the Biltmore Terrace?

2

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

3

Mir. Hornbeck.

Was that the same hotel that Roberto

4. Fernandos Miranda was associated with?

5

Mr. Espinosa. That I don't know.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. When you saw Cappy Rothman in Miami, did

7 you ever discuss

with him any anti-Castro activities?

8

Mr. Espinosa. Never.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Did he ever solicit your aid in any kind

10 of cuban adventure?

11.

Mr. Espinosa. Never.

12

Mr. Hornbeck. Did he ever discuss the castro regime;

13 what it has. cost his father and what it had cost him?

: 14.

Mr. Espinosa. Maybe he might have made a comment about

15 that sometime or other. But it was not any depth or anything

16 like that.

17

Mr: Hornbeck. Did you ever hear of or did you ever meet

18 Kelly or San Manarino, from Pittsburgh?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever hear their names mentioned by

21 Cappy or Norman Rothman?

22

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever meet in Cuba or Miami Henry

24

Savaradra and he had a nickname of "Kiki?

25

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC

HH: 53080 DocId: 32248213

---

## Page 113

100

Mr. Hornbeck.

Did you know a Raphael

TENeR

Gener?

2

Mr. Espinosa.

You äsked me, and I told you the name

3 sounded

familiar.

4

Mr. tiornbeck.: He had a nickname of Macho, M-a-c-h-o.

5

Mr. Espinosa. No, I remember that much I never did.

6

Mr. Hornbeck.: Did you ever meet any individual in the

7 United States or in Europe by the name of Macho?

8

Mr:

Espinosa. No.

9

Hir. Hornbeck. During the time that you were in Paris,

10. did you ever run

across any ex-members of the OAS?

11

Mr. Espinosa.

No. I didn't even know the OAS existed.

12. You are talking about the French organization?

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Yes.

Mr. Espinosa. No, I never did.

15

Mr. Hornbeck. Again, while you were in Europe, did you

16 meet any Soldier of fortune people who were fighting or going

17 to fight in the congo?

18

Mr. Espinosa. No. The only people I have known go to

19 the congo with the cubans that went with the clA.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. Were those people that you knew in Cuba?

21

Mir. Espinosa. That I knew in Cuba or that I knew from

22

the invasion or from revolutionary activities in Miami. They

23 are the only people that have been in the congo that I ever

24 met.

25

Mr. Hornbeck, Was Teddy Whitehouse one of those people

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

WW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page hansTREET sin beonotenc

---

## Page 114

10.1

1 that you knew?

2

Mir. Espinosa. I know Teddy whitehouse, but I would like

3 you

to tell me who he is.

4

Mr. Hornbeck. He is a pilot.

5

tir. Espinosa. He is a pilot?

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Yes.

7

Mr. Espinosa. I know the name and I know the guy for

8 sure.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. He was very friendly with Norman Rothman?

10

Mr. Espinosa. I can't even picture the guy, but I know I

11 met the guy.

12

13

Mr. Hornbeck.: Did you, in Cuba, meet a Joseph Merola?

Mr. Espinosa. No.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know a Jorge Alonso Pujol?:

15

Mr: Espinosa. The old man or the son?

16

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know the family?

17

Mr. Espinosa. I know the old man was vice president of

18 Cuba during the prio time.

19

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know his son, Jorge?

20

Mr. Espinosa. No. I have heard of him but I have

never

21

met him.

22

Mr. Hornbeck. Juan Restoy, Cesar Restoy?

23

24

Mr. Espinosa. Again I think the name tells me something.

Mr. Hornbeck. Jose Aleman?

25

Mr. Espinosa. I met him once.

NH 53080

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

DocId:32248213 Page botth STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON D.C: 20024 (O02) SEANAE

---

## Page 115

1.02

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us whether that was in cuba

2 or the United States?

3

•Mr. Espinosa. No, it was in the United States... I went

4 with Cubela, and. I know Najor Paez. I went to the

5. Fountainbleau and we stayed in one hotel owned by jose Aleman,

6. and he had a nickname, and. I

only met hii once.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us approximately what

year

8 that was?

9

Mr: Espinosa. It. was 1959, March of 1959.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Were you traveling during the 1959 year.

11 between Cuba and the United States?

12

Mr. Espinosa: Yes. I went to Miami then and I went to

13 . Miami another time, and two times or three times before I

:14 finally took off.

15

Mr. Hornbeck. Are these all pleasure trios or was there

•16 some business?

:17

Mr. Espinosa. Just pleasure trips.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know Orlando Bosch?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

20

Mr. Hornbeck.

Have you ever heard of Orlando Bosch?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

Is he related to Pippin Bosen?

22

Mr. Hornbeck.

Pippin Bosch was president of Bicardi

23 Rums.

24

Mir. Espinosa.

There was a Bosch when the whole thing

25

started with the invasion and the training of the Cubans,

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NW 53080 DocId:32218213 Page 3005h STREET, S.W: REPORTERS BÜLDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 116

103

1 although he was under the auspices of the CIA, he was supposed

2 to be fighting for a croup called "The Front," and The Front

3 were five different people, representing five different

4 organizations, who were united in order to get enough people

5 to do it, and Bosch

was one of then.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. This is the Pippin Bosch?

7

Mr. Espinosa. He is not the one that you are talking

8. about.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Luis Pasado?

10

Mr. Espinosa. No.

11

Mir. Fiornbeck. Luis Balbuena?

12

Mr. Espinosa. No.

13

Mr. Hornbeck.. Dominick Bartone?

14

Mr. Espinosa... No.

15

Mr. Hornbeck. The record will reflect that the witness

16 is shaking his head negatively for all of this.

17

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Raphael Garcia Bongo?

19

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

20

Mr. Hornbeck. How did you know him and when did you

21 first meet him and what was your relationship?

22

Mr. Espinosa. There are two brothers; that is Raphael

23 and there is Jorta.

24

• I used to have a girl friend when I was very young in

25. Cuba and her cousin was the girl friend of Jorta. Jorta had

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

No 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 4bf7t STREET: S.W. REPORTERS BUIEDING WASHINGTON DO DANNA iNNOT FELINRAS

---

## Page 117

104

1 very bad German shepherd he wanted to get rid of, and he gave

2 it to me, and I säid, "Okay,. I will take it." And I had this

3 dog for many years, and that was the extent of my friendship

4. with him. Through him I met his brother, Raphael, who used to

5 be a lawyer in cuba, a ton Santos Trafficante

6

Mr. Hornbeck. Is this just common knowledge, or did you

7. know this personally?

8

Mr. Espinosa. It was common knowledge. I think he is

9 doing some time in jail right now.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. He is doing time in Spain now?

11

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, for passing false dollars.

12

Mr. Hornbeck.. Counterfeit money?

13

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

14

Mr. Hornbeck. When did you hear that information?

15

Mr. Espinosa.

Many years ago; five or six years ago, or

16 maybe more.

"17

Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us how you heard the

18

information and any details you may have heard?

19

Mr. Espinosa. I can't recall who told me the story. And

20 this was at the beginning when I went to Spain.

21

• Mr. Hornbeck. Which would have been approximately when?

22

Mr. Espinosa. That would be 1972.

23

Mr. Hornbeck. And you heard the story then?

24.

Mr. Espinosa. That Raphael had been there and that he

25. had ten or fifteen thousand dollars in one hundred dollar

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

NW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 3007th STREET, S.W: REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024: (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 118

105

notes and he

was passing them for two or three days and then

2 they got him and then he sot a bunch of years in jail.

3

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you hear whether. or not trafficante

4. had ever tried to help him in Spain?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No, but I heard that he had something to

6 do with. Irafficante.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. That the counterfeiting had

something to

8 do with Trafficante?

9

Mr. Espinosa. This is what I heard, but you know how

10 people talk to me. It is not very. difficult to figure out if

11 Raphael was Trafficante's lawyer in Cuba; now he gets caught

12 in Spain with counterfeit money. There is a likely

13

possibility of the money came from the guy and this is what

14

people are speculating about, or told me at the time.

•15

Mr. Hornbeck. When Trafficante was in Cuba, he was

16 arrested sometime in mid-1959, and did you ever hear

that?

17

Mr. Espinosa. No.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever hear that Mike MoLäney was

19 arrested in Cuba?

• 20

Mr. Espinosa. Yes.

21

Mr. Hornbeck.

can you tell us what you heard and from

22 What source?

23

Mr. Espinosa.

All I know is that he was living in the

24 country and he was going back to Miami and he was living and

25 they took him and they put him in jail for two or three days.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

IN 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 189h STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON: D:C. 20024: 1200) 554.2245

---

## Page 119

• 106

Mr. Hornbeck. Did Mike ever contact you?

2

Mr. Espinosa. lo.

3

Mr. Hornbeck. Did

he ever discuss how he got arrested

4 with you?

5

Mr. Espinosa. No.

6

Mr. Hornbeck. He never told you?

7

Mr. Espinosa. I am sure that I have heard the story, but

things don't really register after some years.

9

Mr. Hornbeck. Dia you know Marcos Perez Jiminez?

10

Mr. Espinosa. I never met the suy, although I know he

11

used to live very close to Mike's house in Pine Tree Drive in

12 Mani Beach; two or three houses away from Mike.

13

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever have a chance to meet him?

:14

Mr. Espinosa...No.

15

Mr.

Hornbeck. Did you ever hear whether or not he was

:16: involved in any kind of Cuban activities?

17

Mr. Espinosa. I never have.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Jorge Soto Martinez?

19

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

20

Mr. Hornbeck.

Evaristo Garcia Vidal?

21

Mr. Espinosa.

22

Mr. Hornbeck.

23

Mir. Espinosa.

No.

Miguel farez?

Yes, I know him.

24

Mr. Hornbeck.

How do you know him; under what

25 circumstances?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

NW 53080 DocId: 32218213 Paye 36d In STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BÜILDING WASHINGTON DO MARA ON SEA.DAE

---

## Page 120

107

Mr. Espinosa. He used to be

either the manager or the

2 owner of the 21 club in Havana, and he was alrays mixing with

3 big people somehow.

4

Mr. Hornbeck.

Did he have any relationship.with.any.of

5 the American gambling interests, if you know?

6

Mr. Espinosa. I am

sure he did.

7

Mr. Hornbeck. Anyone you ever saw

him with?

Mr. Espinosa. No, but he was always hanging around with

9 these people.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Eugenio Leal Pozo?

11

Mr. Espinosa.. No.

12

Mr. Hornbeck, Joe Rogers or joe Stassi?

13

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

"14

Mr. Hornbeck. Sam Mannarino?

15

Mr. Espinosa. No.

16

Mr. Hornbeck. Benito Fernandez?

.17

vir. Espinosa. No.

18

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever go to the commodore

at

19 Doville?

20

Mr. Espinosa. Maybe once or twice in my life.

21

Mr. Hornbeck. At some point you or someone had mentioned

22 that Fidel had a mistress at the Nacional.

23

Mr. Espinosa.

Yes.

24

Mr. Hornbeck. What can you tell us about her, who

she

25 was, and when he used to visit her and when you saw them

HH 53080

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

DooId:32248213

Page 120300 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 121

108

1 there.

Mr. Espinosa. I can't tell you who she was, because

3 saw her a couple of times. She was a colored girl, very light

in color, and

she was there, and on two oaccsions, it misht

5. have been April or May of 1959, I saw Fidel Castro in the car

6 outside waiting for ner..

ne and a chauffeur. I don't knöw who

7. she was and I can't remember her name or anything.

8

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you ever meet or hear of a woman by

9 the name of Marita Lorenz?

10

11

Mr. Espinosa. No.

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know or ever neet Larry DeJoseph?

12

13

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

Mr. Hornbeck. That name is not familiar to you?

14

15

Mr. Espinosa. No.

Mr. Hornbeck. When you had discussed earlier in your

16. testimony today seeing a file, were you referring to a ClA

17 file or an FBI file, do you linow?

18

Mir. Espinosa.

I don't know if it was CIA or FBI.

I

19 assume maybe it was a Customs file. But I looked through it

20 for about half an hour, and it was very well documented

and

21 there were many things that I don't remember that are there.

22

Mr. Blackmer. Were there code names in it; crypto names?

23

Mir. Espinosa. No. It was all straight names, full

24

names, and the whole thing, and the nicknames and friends and

25

so on.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

IT 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 121500 7th STREET, S.W REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON, D. C 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 122

109

1

Mr. Hornback. I don't want to dwell on Fidel Castro's

2 personal life, but

auring the period that you were in Havana

3 and then for a few years after that when you nay have had

4. contacts there, did he have a number of mistreses or was he

5

basically

with one woman?

6

vir. Espinosa. No, he always and a nunber of them around.

7

Mr. Hornbeck.

were they fairly well known?

8

Mr. Espinosa. I guess some of them were.

There was this

9. Lily Gowdy, and I don't know if he was screwing her or not,

10 but he was cetainly taking her out. I think this is what I

knew, but I was a kid at the time, and I am sure the people

12 older than me knew more.

13 Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know a person who worked at the

14 Tropicana casino by the name of Lewis Mowillie?

15

16

Mr. Espinosa. No.

Mr. Hornbeck. Did you know an Aldo Vena Serfin?

17

Mr. Espinosa..Mo.

18.

Mr.

19

Did you know Sergio Acacia Smith?

20

Mr. Espinosa.

No.

21

BLACKMeR

Mr.

Hornbeek. Did you have any relationship with any of

22 the anti-Castro Cuban forces in New Orleans?

23

Mr. Espinosa.

NO.

24

ir. horroeek

Or any of the particular groups. that were

25 in New Orleans?

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

NY 53080 DocId: 32218213 Page 122300 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 123

1.10

Mr. Espinosa.

I dian't know there was an anti-castro

2

force

in lew

orleans.

3

Mr. Blackmer. You did train in lew Orleans at one time?

4

Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I trained in lew orleans.

Ididn't

5 really train over there. We were taken from Panama and

in

6 order to send us to cuba

first we

were taken to New Orleans,

7 to an old Marine base or what had been closed for 200r ,30

8 years, and from there we were taken to Biloxi, Mississippi, to

9 a security house.

10

Mr. Blackner. This is 1960 or 1961?

11

Mr. Espinosa. This is 1961. This is just two or three

12 months before the invasion.

13

Mr. Blackmer. Kyou were

garrisoned on the base amer

14 boarded on the base in Biloxi?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Not in Biloxi; in New Orleans.

16

Mir. Blackner. How about when you went to biloxi?

17

Mr. Espinosa. They split the guys.

There

were about 80

18 guys, and they split them different ways, and I was there with

19 about eight or nine guys in a security house with a couple of

20 agents.

Mr. Blackmer. On the base?

22

Mr. Espinosa. No, no.

23

Mr. Blackmer. In the town?

24

Mr. Espinosa.

It was a security house. Thät is a house

25 that is used

for clandestine oprations, and so a security.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

IN 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 1233007th STREET, SW. REPORTERS BUILDING WASHINGTON D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 124

1.11

sobe

1

house was a "b

"ten house" in Biloxi, and we lived there, seven

2

or eight guys and one

or two cIA guys for about two weeks.

3

Mr. Blackmer.

lad you had any contact with

Bernard

4

Barker in Havana?

5

Mir. Espinosa.

6

Mr. Hornüeck.

NO.

Eugeno

Jurio Martinez?

7

Mr. Espinosa.

8

Mr. Hornbeck.

No.

VIRgIllO

Martino Gonzales?

9

Mr. Espinosa. Ho.

10

Mr. Hornbeck. Cueto?

11

Mr. Espinosa. No.

12

Mr. Blackmer. We appreciate your coming. Could you

13

pssibly give us

a telephone number where we can contact you,

14 should the need arise, in London?

15

Mr. Espinosa. Surely. I can give you my home number.

16

Mr. Blackmer. If; in the future, toward the end of the

17 summer, we should like to have you at a hearing, would you

18 have any predisposition against appearing before this

19 committee at a hearing and going over the things that we have

20 just discussed?

21

Mr. Espinosa. Of course not. Count on me.

22

Mr. Blackmer. If you could leave us with the number,

23 then we will be in contact with you.

24

Thank you very much for your cooperation.

25

(whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the deposition was concluded.)

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

MY 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 124,00 7th STREET; S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2345

---

## Page 125

112

CERTIFICATE OF SHORTRAND REPORTER

2

I, Harold B. Alderson, shorthand reporter, do hereby

3 certify that the testimony of the witness which appears

in the

foregoing deposition was taken by me in shorthand and

thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that

said deposition is a true record of the testimony given

by

said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor

8 employed by any of the parties to the action in which this.

9 deposition was taken, and further, that I an not a relative or

10 employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties

thereto, or financially or otherwise interested in the

outcome

12 of the action.

13

14

15

16

17

Harves B

Shorthand Reporter

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

MW 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 125300 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554:2345.

---

## Page 126

113

1

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUSLIC

2

I, Elizabeth Berning, the officer whom the foregoing

3 deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose

4 testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly sworn

5 by me; that the testimony of said

witness was taken by

6 Harold b. Alderson, shorthand reporter, and thereafter reduced

7 to typewriting under his direction; that I am neither counsel

8. for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the

9 action in which this deposition was taken, and further, that I

10 ain not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel

11 employed by the parties thereto, nor financial or otherwise

12 interested in the outcome of the action.

13

14

15

Notary Public

in and "for

the District of Columbia

16

17

My Commission Expires:

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,

MY 53080 DocId:32248213 Page 126300 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

---