NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPT.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 01/01/0000
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Keel 621

Plant

Naurust 196-

(conttnued fron deed #to))

TIAGSLITTON

I8.

Mien, the Tenti Vopartient le... Mat does It do now

jost recently, unn been inault, catablishlar, and securing

comunicationg in the hosols and roBtaurants, in connection

with

tho foroigners.

men, they had communications with a motor pool, and thoy hnd a

number of volicien nnd tails for the employecs' usc -- ((tint 1s)) -

by officers ((working)) acainst foreteners.

1. Do you think thie is logical for tho Seventh Directornto to bo

located in the bulldlag of the ligher School:

B. Roll, It 1s noxt door..: (5G)

1. Is this logical or not - that the covert personnol of the Soventh

Directorate bo stunted la building. #2 or in the lligher School of

KGB.'

• ..".

B. I do not know whother it is logical or not, but, most recently, they

mere thero...

A. Alright, we will flulsh the discussion on this until the next no.

B. They absolutely aro there even now.

dell, I have in mind, until January.

They vero there in January 1061.

The Tenth Department.

Tell, what do you think -- can

I bellove you, that you do not know

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merc

the coatttoo of Inforalen (il)) maosituated

1:.

I never mis

there, not once.

A .

And then you confused cverytalni.

•So 1hat 18 ((to say)):

A. How could thero be a Comaltteo of Information In 10:13-1951, sen

there ins not any.

B. The thing is that the employcos camo to us, later, when tho Comittoo

of Inforantion had boon liquidatod.

I think they camo later, around 1937.

more was BELINOV, STAROTOLAISKIY - they worked in the Soventh

Department.

A.

You.do not know those simplest things about tho orcantention of kGB.

B.

(XG)

A:

there vas the First Chlof Directorate:

You sald it was around the Agricultural Exhibition.

therei

E. I never mas there onco;. I did not do thero.

lear tho Agricultural Exhibition, thore

is a buro building.

A.

What ms there before:

B. I do not know; I nover went thero.

Sonewhere there, neur the studio, the motion picture studio.

A.

Hell, what sas 1r

this building carlier:

B. I do not know; I

was not thoro.

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-:-

You would not have to have been there; all the

know about it.

((Pause)) Mat do you know about PAdYUSHKIr.

motow reildents

B. ((Paus0)) 1 licard that, in the past, he bad been on copioyco of aGi.

A. Emplojoo of the AGR.

B. An ambassador in the USA.

But upon roturning fron Amorica ho workod in Ts%..

In January 1964, he was working in tho CC CPSU; is boadod tho Exite

Commission ((Commission on Exits From tho Country)), which in 1902,

or 1961, becamo a dopartment.

A. A Dopartment for Exits Abraod.

B. Yes.

A :

What kind of rosponsibilitios, what kind of rolationship. doos

the

Second Chiot Directorato have with this dopartment:

The 1lth Department, the Ixits Department, maintaine close contact

with tho Exits. Departuent, the forner Commission.

A. When did PAYUSKIN work in KGB:, or In MGB, Of HYD, or....

в. In MGB;

I do not know when he worked; I heard that earlier ho had

worked at one time in McB.

After that, he became Ambassador

to America.

when ho returned fron laerica, he vorked In the CC of the Party.

A. ((Pruse)) Hell, you do not know that he uns the Asbassador to

China: ((Pause))

You do not. Pnow.

((Pauso)) that was his position under RUGLOV and SEBOY:

W...

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ii.

(Pines) do worked in de under Matched and SEROv.

A. ((Paur0)) 110

mars Cited of Intollluence at that time:

Bo I do not inow, 1 de not now.

A. Do you inow dio it was undor klUGLoY:

3. I also do not know.

A. Moll, who sas Chlot of tho First Directorato:

B. I do not renember.

•A. And, under SEROV?

B. (IG) SAISLAROUSKIY.

A. In what year did SAOIAROVSKIY become Chief:

B. I cannot tell you in what year.

A. ((Pause)) Very well; you do not know who was Chief of intellicenco

under laUGLor

lind under SEROV:

B. SAKAROVSKIY.

A.

mo ras Chief undor BERIYA:

B. I do not znow.

A. Namo at least one Deputy - lor

1953, or 1954, 1955, or 1956.

-;

B.

((Pause)) Before the arrest, there vas one FEDOSEYEV, before BORIYA's

arrest.

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• N..

licil, & an asician undor BiTYA".

B. Well, I nean -- during trira's timo:

A. I told you carlier that FeDOStEl did not servo then as Deputy.

But we will put him down.

110 else:

B. ((Pauso)) I do not romenher sho clue; I do not remember. ((Long pausc))

I Bald that RYASNOY was Chief of Intelligenco at one time, and

SAVCiLENKO was.

And FEDOTOV was, at

one tino...

prior to....

A. I have heard about

this.

"((Pause)) Who

followed then:

You know thoso mio wore chiefs prior to you ((your employment)).

B. Yes; I hoard ((of them)).

A..

..•But, when you

worked there, when you were working there, who was

there?

B. I did not havo to

go there, and I, I do not know.

I heard; starting with SAaAROVSKIY.

When he was appointed, I cannot tell you.

A.

But approximately wion?

((Long pauso)) If you woried there in 1953-54, then did they

complete the new annox to the ligher School of the sd or the KGB,

however you want to call it:

B. I worled on tourist fron 1955... Bo'-- se caecked the records,

and here there was tho Operational Records Departmont, a part of it.

And we checked then on ilsel'nyy Street, in the files of the PGU

((First Chief Diroctorate)), the archives of the PGU.

And, at that tine, still -- la 1955 -- the work still was going on.

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It-rilll had not been completed.

mans othor schools do you know alout.

You have mentloned ilsol'iyy Streut, Leningrad Highway, -- shat

others do you know.

B. And then 1 hoard about tho existence of School 101.

A. Mint is this, the School 101:

B. This is a school of the First Chiof Directorate?

A. What kind of a school 18 it:

B.. A typo of intelligonco school.

A. And what else:

B: Then thoro ls a school for deputy rosidorts and residents; I heard

about this.

A.

Where is this school?

B.

The ond school and the other are outside of Moscow.

A. And where is the School 101:

B.

Somowhere on Minsk Illghway.

A. And what other schools

are there, that you know about?

B. I do not know any more.

1. And, in the Second Chief Directorate, what kind of schools does it

have.

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B.

There

vere not any schools.

A. Are you sure.

D. There vere not any.

A .

We will call it quits for today.

(End of 9 August 1965

sesston))

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$

(110 Audist 1080))

(ilost of the "XG" in the transcript are the result of the poor

readabiltty of the recording)).

( The munrus tall wile arranging furniture, etc., In the room.))

B. Hello.

A. Good siny:

Well, how are you fecling:

B.

siot so good and not especially bad.

Of thoso quistions which you asked me yosterday..

((Xa; poor recording. ))

.. SAIOLAROVSKIY... PITOVRANOV.. deputtes... (1G) KOROTKOV

Then, lf I am not mistaken, PANYUSIKIN vas Chief of Intolligence

at one timo.

A.

When?

B. I do not know; it vas bofore my vork ((began)) in 1953.

A: ((1n English)) That's irong.

((XG; poor recording.))

PITOVRANOV was there, for your infornation, when you vere not...

1f

you told the truth when you said you began work in 1053

D. I heard that PITOVRANOV at one time roiked in the Second Chief

Directorate - he was Deputy and also Chief.

A. And Deputy Minister.

B. And Deputy Minister, and he was in prison (1 sidel), with SHUrAYASOv.

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ite man ta prtoon atti subranaror

A.

But tile in no way conchma ((the statement)) that you vorted thero;

bocause such mistakes in you have made (X6) does not rit.

And I almply want to realne you onco anin, wille ve still aro

tallIn: In n friendly wy, that you still havo thas to be a ropular

porson.

I am talling nhout leading a normal life and to continue to do so.

But timo 18 running out..

B. I honestly ((an tollin::) ) you..

(1-2G) I am vory mucn afraid that you will bo

(in English) very sorry for yoursoll

we already havo talked about this, and I linve repeated it severnl

tucs; and today I an ropcatin: again (2-3G).

I certainly nin not playing with you; I am apenlin. very seriously

to you -= I do not decelve anyone, and I do not intend to decalvo

you.

And fron such a situation in wich you have put yourself... and in

which you find yoursell... there is no way out crcept for you to

toll the truth.

B. I am tolling you the truth...

only you do not want to understand mo.

You understand -- you (XG) .

You do not want to understand me.

You want... well, let us say, 1953... for you, this (XG).

"How does he not know this:"

But I do not know, perhaps because I had just arilved there (XG).

Nell, please, 1f you will say, "iho vas ((there)) in 1958, 1959,

1960. ", then hore I ((can)) speal: freely

((NG; poor recordine))

But In 1953, I had just arrived, and you ((as!:)) such quastions!

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.l.

1í you becan to vock an sac Borer the MoB ta lord, 10rt, or 1966,

then say so.

Б.

tell, so, no, no; I becau in Marci 1953.

but, mo: understand:

A man has juat nirivec...:

8rid: 1 and 1l apeak at the sase tino))

cut at did you bay chiller that you bognn works in 1052.

to dranges thils out of you.

B. I do not know why 1052; 1 began in 1053.

I do not know.

¿!. "I do not linow"; I also do not know.

You do not wint to understand -- noither you nor your colleayues:

A...

There is nothing to undorstand.

Ivery thing

Is as clear as inite snow; I hava told you scuoral tinos.

P. You do not want to understand.

(NG; A and. B spoak at tha same tine))

A. You tere not there; that is all.

You do not know which of the Secretaries of tho CC CPSU was Doputy

Minister.

5. I told you I do not know.

¿. Then you vere not there.

5. How can you say I las not there.

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A. Vory

almyle.

B. (XG) After all, one can check this sonchol.

Bay.

B. One can check this -- wothor I worked thore or not, etc.

This 1s not n lift accrot.

(2G) ono can chocks.

1.

Hc know;

we can check,. ((wo)) know what to chock and now

to chock..

B. I am not tolling you how to chock...

(I know my nano is thoro: )

A. Wo know that your namo la there; wo told you this carlor, won

(you talkod nhout how)) you registered the ABIDIAN filo.

Porhaps you roristorod it, but it doos not moan you wore working

thoro!

B. - Dut, I worked thoro from 1053:

A. You yoursolf said that you did not look so rood, on tho ABIDIAN Case.

and all the rest.

: And

not only in the oporntional cases, but in your own porsonal

history, as voll.

B. Agaln, again, you vent... like this, like this... you take everything;

a man's whole life has been overturned.

A man's wholo life.

A man Is Imprisoned; he is arrested -- for what:

Only for lack of knowledge... uf different versions.

A.

He know "for what";

there is no kind of version, only single facts.

((Pauso)) Do you want to say anything more:

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no; jou wolls reject tery thin

You wolly refect everything.

inatever i any, you molly roject It.

You clearly are postme questions in a tendontloun manner -- "Aha;

he does not know this:"

(65G; 1 and D spenk at tho name tine) )

1. I am not dinccing this out of you -- you jourself said that PAYUSHKIN

mas thoro beforo 1953.

This 1g nonsunso.

B. I told you as I renchored.

. Myone, can say i rene el

You insist that you were there, but you do not know ahsolutoly.

B. I was thore from March 1953 until Janunry 1961.

A. (XG) .

B. (XG) Thoro 18':: excuso ne -- a vory crudo capression -- shy does

a priest nood a..

Thy do I nced thisi

Toll mo - why:

A. That 1s correct. (XG)

E. The question is nlout ny Ilfe.

"'ell, how so:

Alsolutely right; the question is ahout your life; and I already

told you -- there is still the opportunity, but soon these 400 days

will turn into 1,000.

Mari: ny words.

You will remenber me.

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B. 1 can tell you only one rido! - honestly.

Do not to offenons, please at do not want to say anytaln, but --

these 4,000 days: bocaune i cannot stand 1,000 days here.

A. Very will; we will bury you.

P. Kliht; rleht.

But, 1 have brosen coplutoly; I loft there for cood; may should I

toll tall foiry tales.

A. (1-2G) In order to spea:: the truth.

Well, what is holding you back.

B. Nothing la holding re hack.

I have nothing, and there is nothing there.,

My family Is broken up; I have nothing and nood nothing.

A. And there will be no voing back.

B. Thoro will be none and cannot bo.

Nor any thought of it.

A.

If you do not thin, about it and thero will bo no boing back, thon

what 1s the matter.

Lot us talk as man to man.

B. But I am talling as nan to man.

A. You sald that you santed to answer my question; what is keeping you

from telling the truth:

B. I tell you, and you say, "That is not the truth".

I cannot turn cverything upside down to show you;

I cannot do that.

1.

Wher a man does not know there

Sovetskaya Gavan' is locatod.…..

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D.

Tell, shero le Sovotringa Cavan: located.

I vas there, and

I know where It 15.

A. You listst on ((holm: In)) the Baltic area, but you cannot any

any thing.

B. (NG) Sovotsi.

A. ((Pauso))

But I still have ond scrious question..

B. Plenso.

"Refore you answor, think soriously; do not make any uistakes, and

do not mako up sonothiny which does not fit or which was not in fact.

To flist question - Von and under That circunstancce, as thsy say

In Russian, dld you at any tino enlist lor active military servico!

B. I havo forgotten; you soo..: (XG) .

I was... 1n... (XG) school, but one cannot consider it notivo

military servico, becauso I was not l? years old yet; I was not

A. Yes; vory vell, lot us bogin with this.

If you do not know, thon I will renind you; at that timo, won your

age YAs..

On the basis' of tho Soviot Constitution.

B. I understand, I undorstand.

A. All must serve in the Army, except invalids and those who aro in the

reserve.

tho -- and at what age - are called into the Army and the Navy:

B. Every yoar it is announced....

A. I an spcaling of

age... of age.

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- ... -

D. from

the are of lii....

A. ilt, nore

spcclfleally... ((Muse))

There is some trutit In wat you said.

13. 13 ycars old.

A. It Is not so, you linow; it is not so.

B. It ls announced by an

age croup as called into the army.

order of the Minister that such-and-such an

A. So -- lagreo; it 1s announced by tho Ministor that such-and-such

an age group is called to active milltary service.

B. Such-and-such an ago group is called Into the Army - for esample,..

1927, my yenr ((of b1rth)).

A .

Well, let us bogin with this.

In wint year did they announce that the 1027 group ins called to

the Army:

B. Uh... I do not know, I do not renember:

A. All right; I agrec' - one can forget.

On the basis of the law...

Let us begin with this - it is carded out, and it ins carried out

at the time when you had to serve in accordance with the law.

For active nilitary service persons of 10 years of ace, and persons

having a high school education or the equivalent -- l5 jears old.

B. 13 years old. '

A. ((10 English)) O.K., that's right.

liell, let us begin fron here -- when vere you officially enlisted

for actual military service.

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Under Mint ciremstancds and were

n. I was not chlisted for mility scitoe:

• 1.

((Pausc)) It means you vre not enlisted anywiere for netlve milltary

scrvice.

B.

niell, Just a atnute..

Do you not have

In nind those years spent at the willtary school

( (uchilishche)):

PrC-draft-gers; pre-draft-agcrs.

A. Well, you have to understand that persons entering into n military

school, military acadenios, and so forth are accepted ilscwise

according to their age.

And in these military schools, they are enlisted for actual military.

scrvico.

It is another thing that there are a number of schools which. they enter

beforo they have turned 13, and they study in these schools -- for

example, the

Nathluoy and Suvorov Schools, etc. -- they study milltary

mattors, ticy complete their hich school education, and then they go

so nuilitary school or a military academy, or somewhere cise; then

they are chlisted for actual military service.

Wile one still is in a Nalhinov or Suvoroy school, he still is not.

in military scruice..:

That you were in a preparatory school and too!: the oath -- that is

nonsense.

I vant to begin frow here.

B. Everyone too!: thc oath; not only I.

A. That is nonsense.

((XG; A and B spea: at the sane tine))

B. They did not call me into the iray, lecause I studied at the

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Incottute of International Brintions.

ly your ma caller and the studente recetre di etenpeion (oterochin).

1. An chemption -- norced; then, it beans that you never ture called

for actlue military service, you did not serve. in the Arty during

this time you were in the Institute.

What year did you enter the Institute.

B. In the sunner of 1916.

A. In tie sunnor of 1015, you entered the Institute of Internsitionnl

Rolations.

I. Ic Moscow Stato Institute of International Rolations.

A. How old were you nt thrt time:

B: Vell, in the summer.

.. Ict us calculato -- July, lugust; right:

I was 17 years old, plus 7-3 months.

I had not yet turned 13.

A. You were 17 years old, i-d months; and you voro is.

B. When I began studying in the Institute.

A.

You were ((18))..

B. In October.

A :

...18 years old in October 1915.

Now, we have established once and for all that you did not have

actual military service..

B. I was not called.

A .

... You vore not called; and the reason ras that jou ture attending

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the institute; you reic a student at that that.

This In

underataniaile to everyone, locaust there are no reasona

to have a call up at tha instltute; (hord) at that tune, the wit

una couln! to an end....

D. The var had coded already.

1. Viell, there was still, with Japan....

B. Oh, yeв..:wlth Japan.

1. (610 En11181)) OK.

We will tako this as the basis -- and in Octobor, you voro 13 years

old

At that timo you were nt tho Ingtitute of International Relatlons.

Did you ever havo a military rant. of sergeant or mastor sorgeant.

D.: No, по:

A :

Novor!

B. | No.

A .

Mich did you first get your officer's rank!

в.

In 1947, all of the students in my course vero given tho rank of

¡Junlor lleutenant in tho reserve.

In what month was this.

((Pause)) I cannot tell you for sure; I think It vas upon completion

of the second year, the second yeat.

Л:

In 1917, you were fiven

the ran!:

of junior licutenant in tho

reservo.

In what service:

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-

at vas your malttary spocalty fiermen of sorrted))

vell, jou sere made a dunlor lleutenant....

•B. All students vere rtren....

1. I linow "to all of the students"; you see -- there do thuJunior

lloutenant (XG).

В. Но, по, по;

Juntor lleutenant of the rescive.

A.

Junlor Iicutenant In tho resorve; of mich tranch of sorvico:

B. ((Pause)). I do not remember which tranch of service; juntor first,

licutonant of the reservo; that is

all.

1. N011, Juntor first Ileutenant -- this is the rant for lali ((scrvices)).

Thoro is a Juntor lieutenant In the Army, dir Forcos, In the Navy,

In the Artillory, In tho Tanks Troops - overywhero.

What was your nilitary spocialty;

I have in mind -- how must the Ministry of Defensa take account of

you:

Say, a war hag begun, and you are called up; iliero would thoy put you:

Nothing wns indicated thero were they vould take us in caso of mr.

They take into account in what institute you are studying, what ..

you know.

Л.

Let us begin from hore;

so -- you becane a first lieutenant in tho

rescrve in 1917, at the end of the school year.

Let us agree on this.

E. Yes, yes.

A. liten, appro:imately:

B.

Well, June, June.

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A.

((in inalini))

2.

It could have boon in June..

There 18 & gorlod men you are waltin: for ordore.

Well, wo aro talkin, nhout shen you leenno....

Bo. At the ond of the second courso.

•A.

...At tho ond of the sccond coursc, in tho summor of 1017.

B.

Sunnor of 1917.

•1. Fine; through nich military comtsearlat in tho city of Moscow

did this commission to.

How ins this formalisod:

Throurk wich rayon military commissariat of the City of Noscow

was tho rani: Elven to you and the stidents:

B. Tho rant was elven by order of tho Ministry.

1. 11 thout fornalization through the miltary commissariat..

Be Dut in tho ailitary conmissarlat they recolvod ((the military

Identification papors)) In vich It was written juntor first llcutenant

1n

, the resorve.

1. Woll, toll no, how was this forrall ation actually carried throuh -

to maic you & junior first lleutenant in the reserve:

Througk which nilitary connissarint did it go, and how was this dono?

B. I do not renenber theso details, lut I thin's that it vas ((done)).

according to onc's placo of residence, through the nilitary

conuissarint where

I was on the rolls.

1.

Well, wien did you reccive your first nilitary identification tho

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tis flict flat.

I recelved the military identiciention prior to (receling no))

rank, as being subject to part.

1. Tiell, litten.

b. lien I ras studying in tie instituto.

A .

lell, whon.

D. At tho borinning of 1040, or the ond of 1945, in the first course.

1.. What did you havo before you got tho nilitary identification.

B. ((Pause)) Nothing.

A. And wnt must overy mortal man have:

B. (XG) Passport and student identification.

A. Agreed -- tho passport and the student identification; we will

return to it another tine.

What doos ono have, what lasts

does he have so that he can receive

the military identification

That clso must you have:

( (Pause)). We will begin from hero.

Despite the fact you are a student and so fortis, Mich you become

10 yenrs old, you must so into the arny; a student is riven a

defciment.

B. You subalt the certificate fros the institute, that. you are studying

there, tho cortificate fros the place of residenco...

I think we went through a camission there, a medienl coumission.

niell, litore.

---

## Page 23

104-10227-10012

- 12.

more ild you to throud the nedlcal conntasion.

incro.

I thin': that 1t 1s

at the military connlenariat for the placo of

residence; to lived on Granovs::ly.

But wore ((in anten rayon)) is Grancsily:

Let us sco -- Grancsily; ail... liragnaya Presnya or somo such.

A. Hell, in which rayon was Granovsily Street.

E. Hell, I do not rosenber.

A. Then I will recall that you do not know in inich rayon your homo vas,

on Granovstly Street and you do not know the rayon in wilch you rent

through the medical cou:lation when the tius cans for..

B. Is placo of reslience; in plaço of residence..

A. Toll, I an asting in vaich rayon.

3.: I do not renenber, I do not remenber.

A. You vent through the nedical commisslos; siat cise

B.. (1-2G)

A. Yes.

B. (XG)

A .

Hoy did they place you on the rostor in the rayon nilitary counissar-

iate:

(XG)

B. A ceierent in connection 1th the fact that I was studying at tho

irstituto.

---

## Page 24

- 18.

104-10227-10012

A. (raune)) mon, jou do not nos at you had tefore jor ot

the

multiney tientiotentton card, which overgone anows, tr you vent

throwl much a procedurs.

D. I do not inow.

1. ((Prune)) Lot us rio on;

ve silll leave this.

You went throuth the nudenl commission; you preoented the certiflente

fron the Institute, that you vore studying in the inatitute, that

your reaidunco la thoro. : (XG)

Toy lavo you nilitary identification.

Was thore any rank: in this milltary dcntification.

B.

Thoro the no ran!:.

Л. Того млы попо.

Mant was written

thero:

"I now will road the questiong inich are (fin this Idontification)).

Thoro was n rongon that I showed you the Lichnyy listol. po uchetu

Hadrov: I hnd a reason for thir.

Bochuse in tils lichn Ilstol and the military identification,

thore no

tho very sano questions.

It 1s dono fox rodistration of military personnoi.

B. .(1G) •

1. Furthey, Mint.

B. (1G) .

A. There la a question there ahout your ailitary status.

B. "Suitect to draft:"

do that lo rhunt, lut how "sulject to draft"

Further, llon eaterory

---

## Page 25

104-10227-10012

do tot now.

Tunt sists; voll, anoin in mind, officer or

not.

r..

foll, officers, sho

were In the inabllute.

A. Do jou anue in mind a

private, a scricant....

B3. I vas a soluter (sulunt).

1. Militaig rank:

B.

Nono.

1.

Mllitary ran'

You had nono.

further, military specialty?

((Pause)) Everyone is rogistered in

tho

reserve on tho basis of

their education..

D.. No cducntion.

A. And so forth.

B. High schoöl:

I understand:

It 18 given for aiiltary speclalty, you understand.

-B.

well, what liud of

milltary spocialty

can a man have

It he has only

a hiel school education?

That 15, (KG)....

It is another thing that they unve ne officer's ran:; then, probablya

I do not knot if they wrote it in or not -- they trote la "inter-

proter-translator'.

11y.

iccause tu had passed an casination in military translation in

---

## Page 26

104-10227-10012

Inclish.

Mit, here, no silltary spectalty or day kind.

d. well, you do not know.

I so nic mi to toie son, but i anon that

there wils.

Furthor, there is the question of

the dustination of the military

registration des:: for the place of residence of the person subjoct

to draft.

icro, it is ritten - "Wlich military connissarlat. "

Б.

"Of which rayon.""

A.

litch rayon was it:

B. : I do not reneuber

-- ((The onc)) for the place of rcsidence on

Granovstly Street.

(2-3G)

A. Further - tills is the flist: the nilitary registration desk.

Where is the military

ronistration des: located

B. In the Military Cormissariat.

1. You do not know where the milltary renistration dos!: is located.

Firther, there is the military connissarlat - "The nilitary

conmissariat for the place of residence

B. liell, sone ragon.

..:..

A. Sono lind of rayon; but which rayon, you do not know.

Further -- the nest question: "Have you tech removed fron the

milttary rolls or not."

Then, "No!".

B. (XG)... If you are sit, then for inden servico.

---

## Page 27

104-10227-10012

-?.

A: for hat scrileo were you doclared fit (6 vas it intrten In )).

B. Line (stregoroy).

A.

"Fit for ling troops".

B. Yes, absolutely.

A. Next queation: "as

a draft deferment cranted:"

B.

"In connection with study at an instituto."

A.

"Until shat time:"

I do not knou shonar

80322

A deferent was granted' for study at tho Institute in recordanco

with a decree of the Council of Peoplo's Comissars.

(1G) ...

A

Now we have cose to the military identification.

You do not know that they wrote for you thore.

(XG) •

в.

(NG)..

A. Now, rtion the silitary iucntifiention... (NG) MVD....

B. I do not reucaber, I do not remembor.

(XG)

A. liell, approximately:

B. At tie cod of 1945 or the begloning of 101G; I renember that it vag

at this thee;

I do not remember ((cinctly)).

A. Then jou received tho military identification, bore suliject to the

dra?t - you are on the ailitary rolla in the nilitary coolssariat

---

## Page 28

- 17 -

104-10227-10012

at your place

of restience, and you have a docemont

In connortten

xi tit

studies; further

-- dorinn;

itmos sore you called to the

allitary

comoonilat beforo they made you in

officor

Do I do not sendaber.

1. Then ild they open an officer's file on you in the milltary

conmissariat:

B. Nell, probably, von they ravo the now nilitary identification.

In the military comissarlnt it vas written officer in tho roborve.

A. So a shen did they issue the now military duentirication?

EDE-

In 1947, 1n- the sumner.

In 1917, in the sumer, they lasued you a now military Icontification.

That was the difference betveen tho old and the new luontification:

B.

The color of the cover. was difforent.

cut the basic difference as that you vere an officer, not a

soldier,

a Junlor licutenant in the resorve.

are catac?

Tut there.

was nothing relatod to lavy servico.

B. Absolutely nothing; nothing, nothint.

A. And uhnt ras there on the military identification

anchor:

....-

• .'

-= a

star

or an

B.

No, no - a star, of course.

A .

then, there ras no connection whatsoever sith your lavy seryice, or

which you have tallied.

B.

(1G) lio,

none, absolutely.

---

## Page 29

104-10227-10012

d. ((l julion)) 0.r.

Ten a allitary

rant ins

riven to you: juntor lloutonnnt in tho

reSeric;

jou do not thor

In which

retrier. rou were annition.

Wint Ing

viltten there, for cample a chrineers

personnel, coamand

personnel, pulltient personch, (1l) personnel, or somethlmr oldo.

Every

mar, oven 1f he has not served ta the dira, sho has recelved

•officer rant, must te asslined to some ((sertee)).

If there 15 n vai tomorrow, the milltars coumissariat must nilso

some sort of conclusion.

-B.

I had nothlar - neither political nor anything olso...

Л..

Vell, 1f thore ins not nnything, then it Is difficult to bellovo

that you had a military dontifieation.

Docnuse it was thore, and itutili ts theroe

-09 69-09

Woll; no will assume that in tho sunmer of 19i17 thoy tave you tho

rank of juntor lleutenant.

Well, how long were you a Junlor licutchant in the reservo:

B. Until formalization in tho Peoplo's Commissariat of Dorenso.

Tuat 1s, tho Ministry of Dolonso; that Is, the Ministry of the Navy.

Yes, when vero?

when verg you procossed in

thoro

B

A: In which month:

B. The jormallantion began in the spring of 1050; it degan In tho

spring; prior to the stato examinations began at the instituto.

A.

Alright; nevertheless you vero not in the willtary servico as yot.

в. No, по,

no, no.

A. (iG) You aro on the

rolls of the nilitary coonissariat until tho

---

## Page 30

104-10227-10012

tine they accept you:

13. Blant, rocht.

A. Mische: won did they trio you Into GiU, If so nio to bollove thnt

you said.

In Octolici 1950.

So, in Octolor 1950, you voro talion Into GRU.

B. Yes; they could havo placed no in GRU considerally carltor, but I

too! the stato exams, locauso I Inilod in Mar: lan-Loninlem.

Л.

((1n Inclis)) That's oll richt.

• That happens.

B3.

No, I an saying that the procossod no carlor - they even could

havo put me in carlior; porhaps, coon at the end of July - but

this uns not dono, becauso I ro-tool the state oans.

A. ((in English)) That's alricht -- could bo.

((xG;

A nna l sponi: nt tho sano. timo))

You camo Into GRU ns a Junior licutcnant.

B. And, thon, Intor, thero vere discussions -- I found out about this

later, vhen I arrived in the Far Enst...

Peoplo nalied, "thy are you only a junlor lleutenant:

They

made you

a juntor lleutenant in the reserve in 1917; It is

a long tine since you vore liven a promotion in rank.

(XG) You aro an interpretcr-translator; you could be a llcutenant."

1. That is possible.

---

## Page 31

....

104-10227-10012

1:.

Told not crow that:

1

Intollineneo

1. Giu 1s to Mano, they could do that.

13.

ter, correct.

A. Or the milltary coumissarint could do it, lechuse you

vere point on

permancht servico.

Approxlntoly mon vero you removed fron

the soils of tho uilitary

commissarint at your place of residenco:

B. (NG) 1t tho ond of Inll, I thinic.

full, could we say Octher, doventer.

B. No, no; I had already loft in October.

Toto ins on order and I loft; i'lilt nitor the orders, I loft.

A. In Septembor:

B. 'Iu Septembor; I cannot say exactly.

I do not romenbor exactly.

1. ((1n English)) Alricht;

in September In tho fall.

You vero taken off tho lists of the nilitnry connissariat.

One wore question -- wich you were on the list beginning with 1017,

now many. times and wen and for what reason did they call you to

the milttary comnissarint.

B. I do not rencher hos many tines, lut no doult they called

ric;

do not remenber.

mhen you coupleted the institute, did you inform the ailitary

conissariat that you and had nicher education or not:

---

## Page 32

104-10227-10012

lin, l sit not, abcolutely.

^ .

((1u ballah)) alrliht.

13.

The only talne vas that, upon instruction of 6ib Ferronnel, I

turned in

tie nilliary ldonticleatson to tarelltary coulsaarint.

I did not turn the enro into GRU, but to thc nilitaly conmissariat;

right.

A. To wilci rayon nilitary connissarint:

2. At my placo of residenco.

havo caven you officorn ran, they cailed you and processiod your

personal file as an officer.

?. It was in 1'197 shch tiey cave me the ran!: of junior lloutonant.

A. Do you renonber how this batter too!: placo!

You know, military coumissariat is divided Into soveral soctiong -

like divistong.

moro 1s tho first section, the second section, the third, fourth,

fifth, and so forth.

There is a person no is responsible epressly for officer pursonnol,

ie tases care of their porsonal files, and talke to the officers in

the resorvo.

P. I taliced sith them, and they told me to come to such-and-such a room.

You drop in to that roon but what, lino, what section I do not inow.

Questionnaires also are filled out at the military comissariat.

A. (XG) officers ino carry on this business.

Because many vere liven ran!:, but sonethint else is done heforchand.

They must know the person befor. ho is given ran.

((Pause)) Well, you turned

your nilitary Identification to the

---

## Page 33

104-10227-10012

mlitary contamorint you cont to cort ln tre cab ta Cetoter 1950,

with the rani: of

infor itentenant.

MICH

thcy

too: you, the rord,

rescue", no dount was crooned

out.

B. Uf courtie; (NG) Identification.

1. Bccause you'alrendy vore not in the resurve, iut

on active duty.

P. It nlso 1a Interosting that 1 eld not rocelve tho officer's Identi-

Prention in Moscow; I recolved 1t In tho lad Fast.

1. ((1n Enlish)) O.li. .

With kind of documont did you travol to tho Far East:

B.

Travor ordor (prodplannlyo)

Л.

So.:

B3. They cevo no a clothing and caulpment supply cortificato, a rationg

cortificate - thioy ravo me this in Personnol.

Travol orders and a transportation requisition.

• So.

B.

They Issuod mo somo sum of moncy - for travol.

As soon as you legin to vor!, you recelve,, for examplo... I do not

remomber.

A.

there did you recoive thu military undform!….:

B. I recolved everything in tho far East.

I was supposed to co... but I went In civilian clothes; only, in •

Moscow I had had my untfor made, knowing that it would fit.

A. Do not bale this business up.

Lot us talk nore rcalistically.

o...

---

## Page 34

104-10227-10012

- 1:

I did not recciven mitors in Moscow:

Thad an overcont made

for

1y101s, il tunle and a

jacint In

iloscow.

mly did I have It unde

lechuse my father got the material.

is received material for uniforn annunlly.

And this matorial was saved and piled

up at.liomn.

I had a

Hood overcoat, a tunic and a

inchet, with trousers made

of rood material.

A, How did you travel to the Far East:

B.

I travelod in civilinn clothes; but I had tho uniforn with me;

travolod by train.

(xG) vith (train)) transters and so forth

P. Inero vore no train transiera at all, all of tho may to khabarovsk;

not onc train transfer; there vere no translers

from hoscow to

Khabarovsk.

A. Is It Wavy procedure that an officer can travel in civilian clothes.

You woro travolin" to your nilitary unit.

B.

2064000-5776248990360

I rocolved nothing olsc with that clothiny and equipmont supply

certificato.

When I arrivod, I presented the cortiiicato, and I receivod a whole

unt form.

A. If you dld not rocoivo anything in loscow, viat vas written in the

cortificate:

F. This cortificate vas Issued so that ren I vas placed on the rolls

after I had arrived, it would sho that I had not reculied anything.

(::G) .

They Issued n returns certificate and a clothin and equipment

supply certificate.

---

## Page 35

104-10227-10012

do hill, alrint; I thing cant wick every ann is enlisted

In the Gi"',

the targe

or any other military init, ic recolves a indford, wien

reing Inducted, etc.

5.

ThC;

I did not pot ag uniform.

(NG)

Б.

(.NG)

A. You cau insist as much as jou vant, but there is

no basis for bellor,

that you camo to the Far East in civilian clothes.

B. I arrived in civilian clothes; ve vore civilian clothes in the Far

Bast

A.

That can be.

B. And, ly regulation, an officer can vear civilian clothes, if ho vorks

only with... he can work in civilian clothes.

A. It con bo, but not everymere.

It is not permitted to rear civillan clothes: (1G)

it is not permitted to scar civillan clothes.

No doubt there are reasons.

--+T4-17

We will not tall: about this.

That was written in the finance certificate:

You had received nothing set.

I. I recoived clothing and equipment supply ((and)) rations ((certificate)

I received only per dies.

A. And that - was it indicated in the finance certificate how much

you received per dien

B. I do not renember, I do not rencuber; I resenber that I recelver por

---

## Page 36

104-10227-10012

don.

Cut,

was there a finance certificate.

?.

I do not renonker.

The clatte and equipent supply and ration (loertlelcates) e

remember.

A. Vell, at the enu of 1950 you vere a junior licutenant;

when did you

receive the no::t ran!: and were:

E. In the military unt 00176, Intolligence of the Soventh Flooot.

A.

The military unit..: 90176, Inteligence of tho Seventh Floot.

D.

les.

A. When vas this:

B. I will tell you now

-- I was promoted in ranl: in 1951...

Now, let

us see -- what month vas that.

Only si: months passed by.... (1G).

A.

Well, if six months had passed, when was it?

B. April 1951.

A. In April 1951, you were promoted to lleutenant; here, you already

had your officer's identification:

B. I received the officer's idertification ns suon as I arrived.

•A. You cannot five me the exact date

-- when you vere given the rank

of a junior lieuterant and then you were made

a licutenant:

B. I ras made a junior licutenant in Octoher of 1030, and Ileutenant -

---

## Page 37

104-10227-10012

In April 1001.

Teen one any say that for the dirst time in yow llie you regan to

serve

In the Army in October 1950, wen you vere offlelally inllsted

for worl: in the liavy GIU, with the rank of funfor Iloutenant.

B. So.

A. ((Pauso))

mion did you beconc a senior lieutenant:

в.

'I became a

sonior licutenant -- I began working In March 1953 -- in

1pr1l 1953, yes, lamediately =- only a month had pausod ly, because.

my tine la prade alrcady was up.

Thon, or April iom, you lecano arsontor licutonant, well,

was this

B. ((Spoals with uncertainty)) This was in lD USSR... In the Socond

Directorato.

A.

в.

Well, very vell, In the MVD USSR; but there was no Second Directorato

- at that timo.

605.25157

5 Mon

pant to

There was a

Socond Dircctorato (1G).

A.

Thero vas no Second Directorate In April 1053, for your information.

B. I have thought ahout this question; there vas a Second Diroctornte.

A. It 1s established by all facts that there was none; please....

B.

Thore was a Second Dircctorate; there was a Second Directointe.

Why do you insist on sonething that did not e:ist?

Why

Tiho necds it.

---

## Page 38

104-10227-10012

U.

N.

trian vort there, for chow in the serond pirerora.

aloned the orders for your procotion in rant

P. ? do ret rinchier.

lell,

wo moto tho reconnondation (kinra:turistlin).

The Chlofs of tho dopartment rote it; the Chlof of ny Soction

was

KOHLOV.

((Long pauso))

What part did Personnel play in this mattor.

В.

I do not remember.

TE F

A. What rolo, in promoting you to senior lloutenant

D. This all zoes through the Personnel Dopartment.

Л.

Well, what part did Personnel play:

What did thoy do.

((Lon: pause)) Personnal prepares all references. (kharasturisti:a),

prepares the prosontation of the papers for the rant.

•.53

((Lon!; pauso)) Do you know that -- during the perlod ((of the months))

..of Marci, Apill, May, June -- not one nan In ND vas prosoted:

I. I am are that I accelved a pronotion to senior licutenant.

А.

Tuls 18 just your caplanation --

I did":

No one ins pronoted at that tine.

Do one received a procation, but

D.

why are you tolling me then, then I ins prosoted.

---

## Page 39

104-10227-10012

do Ten, toll

iron to dagone in b

And when dild they comin

tiring

tire:

If you soried thore..

Intil

wint

13. ((Pruse)) I do not ronenber this

problem: this lis my busestion:

could hnve beon... olthier lauGlov... wen they die not

pay' us

for

rani: -- that In how lt could have been:

it

1:

1. Do not roturn to that bocause that inforantion of yours

le not truo,

and I do not tiko a hase on

assurptions.

I want only tho clear and olenentars truth.

B.

Л.

I do not know oxnctly; I do not know exactly.

107-

eresteden

And hero in my question - no onc in Narch, April, bay, and Juno,

oto. - I do not want to continue, you must know -- notia promotion.

B. But I kot a promotion - my timo in grade was up 1n... 1955, at tho

end or 1955 yot... that 1s,

at the end of 1952.

It Is of no importanct that your time in grade vas up -- many

thousands of pooplo wore ovorduo for promotions; and not only

ilcutenants,

" But maJore, Iroutonant colonols,

wi do tie

colonels

ono rot promotions.

There was not one ((promotion)) order.

67902

no

B. But I am tolling you the way it was.

"..

1. This 1s agaln sonething that just does not fit in any way.

B. Why can it not bo:

I had boon mado a sendor lieutenant in 1959.

((XG; 1 and B speak at the same time),

---

## Page 40

.....

104-10227-10012

A. (lone panse)) let us co Curtaor a ca did ther mire you the neat

ranis.

In one way or anotier, you must have recelved the rank of iloutenant

In Aps 11 1953.

Mich did

you rot your next dank:

B..

I was put in for the next rank at the ond of 1955

of 1956; but It did not

no through -- miy.

the beinning,

1: I am asisine... my question 18 - when did you receive your noxt

promotion, to the rank of captain:

B. ((AnGS'lly)) In 1959.

- Whion?

B. In autumn 1959.

I do not romombor exactly, but I think it was at that timo.

A. Dy miom was it conferred.

B. I do not remember wio signed it.

Someono among the Deputios ((Deputy Chairman)) signed It.

* Tho Efficioncy Reports Commission (Attestats tonnayn

yn Socisslyn)

What has the Efficlency Reports Comaission to do with it:

B.

Because when Personnel had prepared the prosentation for promotion,

they then prosented it to the Efflciency Reports Commission.

A. (1G)

B. Not (IG) ;

well, the rank... there is also a commission headed by

each Deputy..

1. You have heard the bell, but you do not know there it is rloging.

---

## Page 41

104-10227-10012

liell, who

B. I do nut inow.

л.

but do you ronomber who slined for you to ben licutenant, when

you tere In the Far Enst.

B. I also do not remember who alined for

the rant of lleutenant;

probably this

was slined ly the sinister or one of the Deputies.

Holl - ne a man tho workod thero for l1 years, as you say -- you

must havo hoard or know what ranks a Ministor can confor with his

signature and wich ranka can he conferred by a Doputy.

B.

In KGB:

The Doputy slens for rante up to ma Includin lieutonant colonel,

Fand tho Chalman of KGB stune for the rank of colonol.

1. ((Pauso)) Woll, then wero you promoted to the next rank -- major:

B. I was not a major, but was nado a licutenant colonel directly.

A.

When did thoy nake you a lleutenant colonel:

the end of 1963

•=».

A. When's

B. When wo (2G) in the

west.

A. ((Pausc)) Tho signed tho order.

B.. I did not seo the slgned order, and I did not road the signed order;

I do not know

who signed it.

The procedure is announced by the Chlef of the Directorate.

In 1959, GRIBANOV announced it to ue, but in 1963 - I do not

SECRET

---

## Page 42

... -

104-10227-10012

ta..

rehenier.

In 1959, he announced to all, int to me a- no se and he called ne

out of the troup; men everyone left, he spolin with me, because wich

1n 1052 I was put up to be promoted to malor, and le tallied it over

with fersonnel an a presentation was urltten up for promotion to

ran jor.

But there le the Fflictency Roports Conntaslon, and It ls tho

Efficloney Roports Conlasion wilch makes the promotious in rank.

Probably the Chlof of Porsonnel reports out the promotions, so tho

employces will know.

In any caso, thero vas a prosentation to promote me to major, but I

was promoted to captain.

A. Why dld this happon:

They could not put you up for major, when you wore only a schlor

Iscutenant.

B. You see low it was - I started tolling you but you interrupted mo --

I was put up for captain at tho end of 1935 or tho beginning of 1056.

Thore vas one LYALIN on tho Commission:

He was Deputy Chief of tho Sccond Directorate in 1051-1955:

At tho end of 1955 or tho heinning of 1055, ho becamo SEROV'g

doputy.

And he was on this commission on ranis.

Ilo hoard -- "Oh! He made a mistake!"; he does not allow it, 'Let

him walt; let him wait:"

And then, later, they bogan to sot my affairs in ordor -- hore, in

the Directorato -- "How doos this happen." -- that I have received

two ponallties, punishments for errors; I had been arrested -- then

I was punished; and it turns out that there was a second penalty -

the postponement of my promotion.

This cannot be; even, according, to the statutes, a person cannot

be punished twice for onc error.

A.

But they do not five promotions to those tho have been punished until

the punishment has been lifted.

SECRET

---

## Page 43

104-10227-10012

It wir

1955

It me liftod a there inn none a they liflod It in

Л.

Vory woll; we will return to your puntennent.

When dle they imposo this penalty on you, and

for Mat

13.

In 1954

л.

When

B. In tho sunner of 1054; do you sant me to toll you how it happened -

why, how:

1. ((Pause)) Briorly.

B. I bocano Infected with a venereal discano.

Hell... you know... I had never had such a thing... I had heard...

from friends... and....

A. Well, I know the story ...

about the infection... as you told it.

B. It bocame known that I showed a passport, a cover ((passport)).

A. ((Pause)) In those name was the cover passport:

B. I think it was in the nane, SPPGRYEV; It ((the address)) was an

apartnent on Vakhtangov Street.

A. Tho Elven name, patronynic of SERGEYEY.

B. I do not rencmber.

1. Very sell.

Let us take a break ((in English)) for lunch. •

( (LUNCH IRENK))

---

## Page 44

-

104-10227-10012

i..

iii, how was (fin Earlion)) lines

(frause)) Is there anytaln You kant to way

S.

it is hard to sit there.

Tun see; I will tell you now.

I had threo docents in 1953-1164 -- three passports.

1s soon ns I began -- I do not even

remenher the name ((on the

rissport))...lt uns the ((safe)) npartnent on lariblerskly Street....

it ras at the end of 1053 or the beginnin of 1951 --I gave up tils

apartmcnt.

for ((no:t)) -- after the arrest of BERIYA - the departuent obtained

an apartment on krasnyye Vorota Squaro, in a tall luilding.

Here I vas as elther. YAKUSilIN or AS YAKOVLEV... and, tuls tas

((1.0.. I wAS AS)) SERGEYEV, on Vashtangov ((Stroet))=

°11, thoso docunents - so you undurstand me properly, My C(B'se

surnano)) docs not renember cactly now it was -- these

docurents

alrays nio kept in the apartment.

You use them only (1-3G) :

And, thon you to to the apartient, you take them with you.

That is why you did not understand me

oxactly.

The Sano with SERGEYEV.

Jordor to cler this up. let us bosin math this digit

Tell me in order all of

the names. which you used shile you worked

In the kop organs or when you vere connected with them, or even

tefore then -- all of the nancs that you used, beginning with the

first.

07-43

B.

(1-3G) I used no other nanes bosore I forked in the organs.

--

A .

tell, very well; you ild not use any other names heiore you started

nor: in the organs.

B. l'es.

A. ((in Inglish)) Alrirht;

---

## Page 45

104-10227-10012

Those nahes

which you used in the orrand, in connection cith gon

operational tor:

Mien I Chuc to Hoi

I recolved a file on saie apartaent lumier 7,

marilorily Sticot.

(Edato-partsent)).

B. liumber 7;

A. Hunter 7 Harthlorstly Street.

Shat name did you use there.

D. "I do not reacher; there ras alrcady a passport and cverything.

1. 5o.

B. After IMIYA's arrest in 1952, and when the Inspectorate had icen

abolissed - this is an interesting detail:: there was a shole

number of apartments which eIRIYA... ah...

Which the Inspectorate had.

(%G) One apartment fell to the Eastern Dapartment, and one -- I know --

to us in the First Departient; both of then, in the tall building on

Krasayye Vorota Square. (XG).

A. Airight; let us not screw around.

Is you are roins to tall about it, toll it as it 18.

I give you my honest word - specifically, this apartment which ve

reccived....

1. The Inspectorate as such did not have such an apartment, they did not

need then.

B. How not.

I reccived this nyartment from the Inspectorato....

A. You do not even know with that the Inspectornte is concerned.

---

## Page 46

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Alatnt, in this, after chitals arrest, wat

D,

I old not isa it; l recoivod in apartient, and 1 recelved a paseport

in the mane of cithor YAKUsilli

on TaoVLlY, thore won a passport in

((itch used tho adircss of)) the

tall bulling.

A. Thon the passport was in the name of YarusiN....

B. Or YAKOVLEV.

1. YAKOVIEV; the next nano was SERGEYEV.

B. SERGEYEV - that was on Vashtangov ((Stroet)) .

A. SERGEYEV;- tie not namo.

77

B. In the first Department, I did not sirn for any documents -- nelther

(IG) nor anything elso.

When I bogan working in the Seventh Department -- whether it was in

---

1955 or 1956 - I had a passport, and I had it until the end, in

tho namo of NIKOLAYEV.

A: And NIKOLAYEV's slven nane und patronyaic:

13,44

B.

Yurly Ivanovich.

A.

what other names did you have:

You used...

B. I uscd them in my

contacts, with the tourists.

A.

Which names:

G. SERCEYEY....

And I used nancs without docents. - lovricov, sERGEYs,

IVANOV.

SEG

---

## Page 47

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SERGHT, MANOr, NOtION; Curther.

D. I do not conenter. (iG)

Л.

you lind a document in the name of yarositin, in the nane of saigiyst....

B. There

"ate names for the apartments, you underntand.

A. NIKOLAYEV:

B. NIKOLAYEY -- that was anothor thing.

This one was not for an apartment; thie one I unod for cover.

A.

((in English)) Alright; you had venorl disordo.

Sone firl caine

nround...

B. From Loningrad.

A. From Loningrad.

Who conducted tho investigation of this mattori

B. SHUENYAKO! callod me.

A. I am asi:ing - nio conducted the investiontion of this mattor:

B. I am tolliny, you the my it happened —- SHUriAiov enlled mo:

"That

• 18 going on: "

I told him, "That do you nean "

"That's going

on with...:"

I told him, word by word, not pointing out this birl, I did not ilve

her nano.

A. You could not help but rive her name; she had been in a safe-

apartnent.

B. She is never at the safe apartment.

---

## Page 48

104-10227-10012

int de pon soon

A. But you used the docent when with her.

mit a 1ld dui nde ine dement -- wy can ; ou not undoratand me:

I nut er-ronorrhoea fron tila woman.

It la mother thing that Masod thia document (iG).

((NG; A and B spent: at the suno timo.))

(XG) illdo tho facts nhout io sho 16 fron SuUmyAkov or anyono else.

D. I snid she ung an acquaintanco fron Leningrad and I did not know

hor nano; and that was all.

2645, 3

Now,

listen.

B. Honost.

1. That is not tho way it happons, and

what 1f sho is a forcignor:

B..

Woll, how, no.

A. Why not

You aro working in tho Second Chief Diroctorato:

It Is not so simplo to say that you do not know who sho is.

This 18 not a crutch factory - I have told you many tines; thoy

operato differently over thero.

B. I said that she is a loose toman tho came from Leningrad, that I

Inew hor in 1015, and I really did know here In 1915.

A. I an taliing about whether you new her in 1945; I ag talking about

tho fact that you could not leep her nane from then, because thay

have to know.

SEGRET

---

## Page 49

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1. Put not tell the nano, i said that 1 did not leno don none.

Л.

Toy must know cinctly

fren won you not the ulricase and sant the

whole tilng dis arout.

11.

I sald that I did not !now.

1.

Ticy do not oporato that lay.

B.

I troto an o:planation.

A. Hero, I am aBi:inE -- SHUNTAiON was tho chiof, with hom perhaps,

you spolo, but I doubt it; who conducted tho invostication of this

mattor?

=.=

Only SiTURNYAKOV -ánd CORTATENKO spoko with mo; no one olse.

Then to whai did you write the caplanation!

B. To SIlUENYAKOV.

A:.

What happonod later?

ThOR GORBATiNKO reportod aboutiny. oplanation to shumyAKov

SHUINYAKOV told hin to put no under arrest lor five days

A. Fivo days under arrest.

I. And on that sane day, FEDOTOV -- who did not know about SHUENYAKOV's

decision -- rave no 15 days' arrest.

A.

Vell, is & KGB employoc, tell me -- how many days can a chief of a

department, a deputy chief of Dircctorate, a chief of a chief

directorate, or a Deputy

Chatrean of the KGB and the Chairman of

the KGD put a man under arrest.

---

## Page 50

104-10227-10012

11.

I do ant domenior; I know tint FADore nave me as many days as he

could a ho could

rive me

li days, and ho ald.

A. I am asking now mary. ...

B. FEDOTOV could livo 15 days - as i chief of a dircctornto.

1. You aro suro of this:

D. No; I am not suro.

1. ((Pruso)) That was the trentost

ponalty the Chalrman of tho KGB,

or tho linistor could divo at that timo?.

B. Tho crontost

penalty -- ho could sond you to court.

A. Noll, without taking you to court.

B. Firo you.

A. Yell, that, too, ls a

That measure

B.

Well, up to 30. day

A. ((Pauso)): That happogod later on:

You got 15 days fron FEDoToV; did ho call you:

B. No; lie did not even speak with ne.

STUDYAKOY spoke with mo;

SIUNYAROV settied this matter.

A. Then did you say this happened.

B.

In 1951.

A. When:

---

## Page 51

104-10227-10012

In the sunnel,

A.

in the

suance of 1051.

Was this at the time you wore Secrataly of the komsomol ortantzation.

В. Уов.

A.

Vell, mint nunsuros did tho VD lionsomol Committco thie on thie

mattor:

B. They removed mo no Socrotary.

A.

How did this happon:

B. Thoy renoved-mous Scerotary during my arrest, immodiatoly; and

when i was trood, tho committco ravo men severo reprimand with a

warning, with a noto In my Komsonol rile.

The konsomol Committoo did thie.

A. In shich Konsomol Connitteor

B. In the MVD.

well, who was Socrotary"

"B. I do not remember.

A.

How was the quostion judged nt tho Konsomol meeting

of the Second

Chief Directorate:

B. They did not discuss my removal thore.

A. ((Pause)) How old vere you at that time:

в.

I was in my trenty-seventh year.

---

## Page 52

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why did they not take auny jous tomsonol identification at that tine:

B. Tcy tools ainy ny Identification (NG).

A. Tell no how and under

that circustances they too: your consomol

identification.

B.. I do not remomber; I turned it tn... ah...

to the forsonol orcani-

zation or to tho rodsono). Coumitteo.

A. How was this dono:

B. Yos, just a minuto.

They Ilftod my punlahment In October; the Konsonal Comittee Ilitod

the punishment

For how long do they penalizo a man, particularly for a sovore

reprimand with a warning!

B. I do not know for how long.

A. You could know.

в.

(x) so that I left the konsonol without punishnent.

A. That you are saying is utter rot.

B. I am telling you the truth, the way it vas.

A.

Lios!

D. Why should I lie:

A. My 11ft a punishment shen the san is leaving ((the cossaol)) for

700d:

Ile alrcady is not a omsonol member.

---

## Page 53

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- 3.:

E. Then, on oruce thnt it not be in

the records.

the conn tins))

A. Thy remove It.

He is not un the rolls. (XG)

B.

They lifted it; they lifted It.

A. That is not the way it happens. ((Pause))

Well, toll ne how they ictually removed you frow the komsomol rolls.

B: I do not remembor./

L turned in my identricntion, a that was ait:

I ms out because of age.

A.

Yell, how did you turn it in:

To whom did you give it?.

B. I. do not remember; I do not remember.

• ((Pause)) I do not want to make this up; I do not want to make up .

to mom I gave stin

I came to the Konsomol Comnittce, turned it in, and that was all.

Filedata 52.

A. That is not the way it happens.

It is not that simplo to turn in

a Komsomol identification.

Then, in October 1954, you were out of the Konsonol.

B. No, they lifted the punishment in October.

A. That cannot be.

B. I wote a statement....

((XG; A and B speak at the same tlme.))

---

## Page 54

104-10227-10012

- 53

-

A. ... you reccived 15 days, and a severe reprimand with a warning, and

they alnost put you but of the kousomol... and that they should lift

the punistment in a fow montha.

That is not the my it sappong.

B.

They lifted the punishment because I was leaving the Komsomol.

Thacy went half-way, because I was leaving.

A. Now, listen, what are you sayingi.

B. Thy should I talk nonsense:

A. Even if a simple reprimand is given, it is not lifted until a year

has passed.

и aн6d

P. It Is lifted; Well, they lifted it.

A. Not one Committee Secretary will raise his hand to sign this,

because he cannot do that.

B. They met me half-way.

They met me half-way, because I wag leaving the Konsomol.

Disit Porar

That has nothing to do with it

B. Way not:

It does.

A. You know that to leave the Konsomol is a greater punishment than to

be given a severe reprimand.

B. That is not a punishment -- that a man leaves the Konsomol; that 1s

no punishment.

That is

a very great punishment -- because you renain out of both

the Party and the Konsonol.

---

## Page 55

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- :1.

((Pause)) Esen did you turn In your identification card

li. Later; in ditober, Novenber, I turnod the identification in.

d. ((Pausc)) for how long wore jou without membershlp in the komsonol:

B.

In June 1256 = at the end of June or perhaps, in the beginning of

• July - I mas elven

candlunto menbership in the party.

A. At the end of Juno, or.

B. Tho beginning of July.

= 1. In the beginning of July you wore taken..

B. As a Candidate member of the Party.

A. Where:

B. The Party organization... tho Party organization accepted -- I

submitted a paper.... an announcement was mado, ah..:

Party organ1-

zatlon of

the Seventh Dopartmont of the Second Chlof Directorate --

the Party Conalttee of the Socond Chief Directorate confirmed:

-cop 200043-20267 25en

accepted.

So = the Party organization of the Seventh Department, the Party

Connittee of the Sccond Chlol Directorate -- the final decision on

acceptance by the Party Committee of the Committee ((for State

Security)).

A .

Who gave you the Party identification - the candidate's identification.

B. YARTSEV, PASTSEV.

Yes, YARISSY.

A.. In which rayon Party Committee did the KGB belong at that time:

- 1

---

## Page 56

104-10227-10012

B. You see how lt was a the Party Comittee of KGB has the rile or

n rayon Party Committoo.

A. Since when:

B.

I do not know since wen, but itly the raghts of a rayon Party

Committeo.

A. Noll, since whon:

B.

I do not know.

1. To which rayon committoo does the Party Committco of KGB bolong:

B.

y do not know it la Drophinskly Bayon, but the Party organtzation

of the violo KGB =- the Sccrotnry of tho Party. Conmittoo of the KGB

has the rights of a Socretary of a rayon Party Connlttee.

A. What changes in this respoct were mado undor BERIYA and KRUGLOV,

and what changod did KiRUSICHEV make, with regard to tho Party

organization of the organs of KGBi

B.

I do not know; I cannot say.

2-25744

You cannot say that YARISE gave you a party Identification.

A.

-et price

в.

No, no, no; YARTSEV gavo mo the tientification; the Party Committeo

of KGB have

1t to me.

((Pause)) I did not 60 anywhero to fet it, neither to the rayon

Committee nor anywere else.

A. Again, a question - why you did not to to the rayon committee:

B. Because it was fiven to no here, in the Party Committoo of KGB.

A. There was a time when they gave them; then, they stopped.

---

## Page 57

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-

The full tarts

membershly, to 100r, nhun ins arceired in the

Committco.

A. That to possiblo.

((Pause)) Now, toll me how you nan non-Party weater could remain

unt woris In the Scoond Calor Directornte done operational work.

Who made such a decision so that you, bein: neither in the Komsomol

nor in the Party....

B. I do not know who.

I left the Komsomol becruso of age.

ilo who has time for preparation, that ono later till como into tho

Party.

A. Woll, wio mado tho decision to koop you on the job in tho organs?

B. I do not know; I do not know.

A. Thoro ls a procoduro --a inn mio leaves the Party or tho Komsomol,

or is excludod, or leavos nutomatically bocause of ago or for sono

othor roason - a question is raisod about his continuance in the

organs of the KGB. (1-3G) in oporational work:

в.

But, I was, for a year and a half (1-2G).

A. :

•In the Sccond Dircctorate.

A spocial decision must be made.

B.

No ono callod me; no one spole with me.

A.

Imagine - a man who had just been taken Into the organs of KGB, who

'(1-2G), to misused service documents', who got a venereal disease,

who was

arrastod for 15 days, who left the Konsool because of age --

what basis is there to continue him in his work:

B.

But they thought, "It sas his first infractlon", "me man will

---

## Page 58

104-10227-10012

stricton up, people mate niotales."

o made tho decluton:

B.

I cannot say no a probably tho chiola of the Chief Dircetoraro:

probably sHutryakoy.

A. But, anyway, you must know precisoly:

B.

Well, I toll you no one spoke to me on this subjoct.

: A..

You do not know how (1G) actually opcrates, what is done; how many

pooplo In tho Sccond Chlot Diroctorato vero not Party members:

B. Thoro wore Konsonol members.

A. Thore voro komsonol mombers, of course.

but thoro wore no non-Party mombors.

All of thon woro In thio Party or In the Komsomol -- you wore the

only ono who

was not.

B. Host probably, the chiefs of the department spoko up for me (2G).

A. There was no reason for them to speak up for you.

B. I do not know why it was that way; I am telling you the way it ls.

A. Then

why cannot you toll the truth about how It was:

Whero is tho dor buried:

B.

I am tolling the truth, and no dog lles buried.

A. That is not the way things are donc.

B. But I am tolllag you how things

are.

---

## Page 59

104-10227-10012

A. You hove sald quite a lot.

((Pause)) Well, in Apoll this, althouth they wire not promotin:

anyone at that tine, they

pave l8 to you.

When

were you supposed to bore

captain.

В. In 1956.

A. Well, you did not set it:

B. But I told you that they had recommonded me for a captain, but Mion

the rocommondation camo to the Commission... to the Personnol

Dopartnont.: yes, when porsonnel makes. the decision, they tako 1t

to tho Commission for tho promotion.

•LYALIN was on this commission.

A: Vory woll; he snid that you have somo shortcomings.

B. Yes, thoro vero shortcomings and that It is necogsary to walt.

A. To walt... LYALIN as an orocutive worlor In tho Second Chiof

Dircctorato..

Ho was not in the Second Chlot Directorate; he was already a Deputy

‹ (Chairman)).

A. ((1n English)) O.K.

Ho told you to wait;

((1n English)) alright;

Anyway, as you say, you became a Party candidato in 1956.

B. Yes:

1. The whole punishment alrcady

had been forgotten.

B.

That is the thin!: --LYALIN at that time did not act properly.

it was not necessary to punish me, because this 1s a punishment.

---

## Page 60

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Also, there ma a chief of my departart at that tine

of the Gorenth Department.

MILe sald, "Alricht, ve will calt; so mll mite a recommenda-

tion again in a year."

I told hin, likolay Aleksandrovlen, how can it be so.

I would lose

a yoar".

ile untd he ruin iod; into It.

Soon, In 1077, PeRFIL'TiV becane Deputy Chlor of the Socond Chief

Directorats, supcovising the Soventh Department.

And then, in 1957, thero alrcady vore discussions.

Alright; we will not recommend you now; lut we will recommend you

right avay to be a major."

1. Nowshy are you tollina no falry tales:

B. I an tellin: you the may it happened.

In 1059, they recommended me to be a major.

A lotter of recommendation vas written.

A.

Listen, cuen GAGARIN did not juap a rank. (2-3G) :

Why would they skip you a rank!

You - with such investigations, and so forth?

How, shy are you telling me fairy talos?

3. Just a minute; in

1956.

.. even in 1955, I had no ponalties (XG).

A:

They could not have given it to you because you were a non-Party

member.

You are not pronoted

you aro not in the Party or the komsomol.

How will you pronote a

uan who is not in the Party or in the Komsomol?

B.

Mell, they let ny propotion ride.

A.

That was in 1956; you aircady vere a candidate member of the Party.

B. It was before that

-- I became a candidate in the Party only in the

SECRET

---

## Page 61

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You did not start processing in June, 1f you bochne i candidato li

sung or ruly.

You Bunt have procensed corler soncwhere; there has to be a cortain

Bo IScht, right.

A. Beforo you speai.,

think it over a little, fIrst;

B. (XG)

A. Calculato the debite against the crodits ((1.o., lino up the datos

and facts)); then explain.

I. I an not twisting it around; it is probably that you want to confuse

A.

You have confused yoursolf without me; and you do not know how to

disentange yourself.

B. Hell, why are you doing it this wayi

A. You know

that neither in the Army nor in the organs - nomoro -- do

they silp rants in promotions, while they do rivo oarly promotions sor

outstanding service.

B. There are cases of jumping two ranks; I will cive. you examples.

A.

I do not vant any examples; no are talking about you personally, with

such references as a

person like you has.

B. Very tell; it was in 1959 that they recommended me to be major.

In 1956 I reccived a mention (blagadarnost') from SEROV.

And I sag a candidate nonver in the CPSU.

---

## Page 62

- :1 .

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That may be.

Do ind at tho end of 1036, or in the fall, I becane a senior caso

officer.

A. Then my did. they not promote you in 1950 or in 1907, in 1959....

B. I will toll you shy -- well, that I want to toil you you do not vant

to hoar - because thoro vas a discussion sith PERFIL'YSY.

PERFIL'YEV told GRIBANOV what = 'Very woll; when the tiue comes to

promoto hin from captain to major then we will send it 1n."

A. But you bald they made you captain in 1959:

B. Thoy mado me a captain in 1959, but they roconnended me to bo a major.

Tho rocommendation vas to bo a rajor.

Undorstand me.

A. Holl, thoy nade you a captain.

:B. Thoy mado me a captain, but they had recommended mo to be a major:

A. How long do you have to be a captain before you lecono a najor?

B. Throo years..

A. Sinco then:

Three yoars.

A. Since then.

B. From major

to licutenant coloncl it takes four years; froz lieutenant

colonol to colonel it takes four years; ol, yes, frou captain to

major - four years.

It takes four ycars for a captain to beconc

a najor.

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## Page 63

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A. Alright; then, when sere you supponed to lecoic a major a dr tineg

made you a captain in 1959:

.B. In 1952, they recomnended ne to bon major.

A. Well, thcy could not do that.

B. I an tellin; you the vay It sas.

May do you..

We will forget about this.

B. In 1959, I was promotod to captain; thus, frou 1053 until 1959, 1

was a senior lleutenant.

A.

Yell, how long docs it take for a senior licutenant to becone a

captan:

B. Three years.

A. And captain to major:

B. Four years.

A. How many years is that in all?

B.

Seven years:

A .

Seven years; 53 plus seven — how nany years

is that?

B.

G0.

A. Then, in no ray could they have reconmended you for major in 1959.

в.

Well, they reconnended ne for major -- wil, perhaps he wanted it

earlier - in 1953.

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- 03 -

A. Wis carlier.

Because there you reic

punished and you vere riven li dayo' arrest.

B. Dut mlch did that happen.

In 1951.

A. And you vere not in the Party or the Konsonol:

B. Fell, shy aro you so... to punishment vas in 1951.

1. Nell, it dous not come out that way in any case.

II, from 1953 to 1960, 1t 1s scych jcars in order to bocomo a major,

and they gavo you a promotion a year carlier - for what servicos:

To slip you a gride, and then to promoto you a year earlior:

B.. I did. not sl:1p (XG).

Hear me out!

((XG; A and B sponk at the same tino.))

A .

But it is not donc tint way.

B. It is, it is - I am telling you the vay it happons.

And GRIBANOV oven cane to an agrecent with Personnel.:

A. There was nothine for hin to come to an agreenent about, with them

or anyone else.

They are not responsible for signing orders.

Personnel does not sign an ordor.

I want to find out what all this is about.

B. ((Pause)) Hell, from 1956, I began to crow.

A. I

know all of that story — about how you began to grow.

B. In 1959, I was rocoumended to bo a major.

SECAFT

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They could not do that because the necessary time in trace had not

clapsed.

B3.

I am tollin: you tho way it vas.

A. This ngain, la your rescruntion - How 1t Is -- that 15

the my lt

wns®

It could not have boon that vay, "but that is the vay it happenod

with me."

Th1s 15 your only "u:planation".

You lave nothing nore.

You cannot rivo confirantion of anything.

B. Nevertheless, I was promotod to captain.

A. Then you could not have boch promoted to lleutonant colonel without

having boon a major.

B. And I was promotod to loutenant colonel without having been a

major

A. Do not explain to me; this docs not happen, and it nover happenod..

And, 11 It happened, then - under somo ((spectal)) circustancos,

and for sonothing ((speclal)).

B. ((Pause)) I am telling you the way It happened, absolutely.

A.

Because, 11 you talio from captain to major, how many years is that:

((Pruse)) Fron Major to lieutenant colonel, how many years does 1t

take:

Then, how many years

is this in all:

B. Eight.

A.

59 plus cirht - how many years is that

SEGRET

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1. may do yon count that way.

-icll...

I do not vant to count in ang diner wary.

B. It Is anothur thing a and you do not eas to.

CriG; A and i spenis at the same time. ))

л.

Tee 18 n docree of the Connell of Ministers witch tolls low ((a

man 15 promotod)) -- In var timo, 1f a man tore in combat for threo

months;

and ho would. he promoted routinel.

And, hosides that, thoro was nothing.

B. I even can alvo na crimplos the namos of pople mio vero givon a

double promotion and promotions alead of time.

л.

I do not want to heni about soncone ((clse)):

Re

are talising only about you.

B. In 1959, I was a captain; la 1003, a licutenant colonol

A. If you inglet on this, then it is stupid of you.

B. Nell... I...

I can salt on this.

woll..:

I... even though for. rou I may be a privato,

I am tolling It tho way lt is and was, absolutely.

A. It does not turn out that way.

I even doubt mothor you noro a private, because you do not even

know what the situation of a private was when you received your

military identification.

( (Long pause))

You have not given no the name of one persou who signed the ordor

for your promotion in rank, tho date of your promotion, etc.

Every porson serving in the nray or working in the KGB tries for

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## Page 67

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nonetalng: le he vorite toere te in his specially, lie career, ind

no, of course, sees that as receives its pronotions on time -- not

because he sants more money, out locouge everyone also le promoted.

Everyone knows this, no matter 10 he 13:

Even SUVOROV

sold,

"Ho is a poor soldier mo doss not thinl of beli

a veneral'.

Of course, there are people sio do not cant to serve in the limy,

but onco it happens, thers 15 nothing to be donc a lt is lie cargor.

Ile must... He cannot stay a llcutenant oon captain all the timo,

and thon he has reached the age of 30, 10, lio should be at least a

-lIcutent coloncl....

((XG; A and B speak at the gane tinc.))

B. Sell, now, many follon stay...

1. soryone knows that it is very hard to no from colonel to roneral.

B.

Icll, now thoy take Into consiucration the officer's duty position;

Is ho is a caso officer, then he is ((1.o., can be)) a captain, and

that 1s n1l.

You cannot bo hicher; they a1ll not rivo him (la higher ronl in that

position)) :

For a senior caso officer - rajor; that is the limit.

He can sit thoro for cluht, nine, or ten years; they will not tivo

him a hleher ((rank unless he goes to a laliher position)).

A. Nell, you yourself say this...

but how did thoy five it to you

D. But, one sinute, one minute; ly position, I alrcady could have

((been promoted)) long ago.

A.

Stop talling this nonschse alout your positions!

You cannot oven explain the dutles of a case officer, not to spoak

of that of a deputy chlot of department.

ir

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ten bave been tealth this nongonse Calageston) for too goars.

¡inarine:) A man Is deputy ciled of a dpartacht and docs not

Anor vo made bla i colonel a wint kind of nonsenne (thuynyn) 18

this !

3.

The Deputy, the Deputy Cantuman lave 1t.

A.

B. I did not read mio aloned; wether lt vas alinod by...

I did not road to signod.

A deputy chief of a department roads this.

Perhaps a case dficer would not road it.

в.

Tell, tho order did not rench no:

Nell, I did not seo this ordor.

A.

Noll, then you did not roach ((tho position of)) deputy chief of

dopartment.

B. Why aro you

talkins this way:

A. It is becauso -- botwon us - you do not at all know even the

staplest things which a deputy chief of dopartment would know.

B. Nell, why so:

A. You cannot even pass for a ciso officer or a deputy chief of

section, much less a deputy chief of department.

You can tell this only to some child in the street - and even he

will not believe you.

I can say oven more -- who will bellove that you were

a deputy chief

of department when you do not even know were Sovetslaya Gavan' and

Kalininyrad Oblast aro located:

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## Page 69

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1!.

It les not neconsary to tall tite say.

I know well were kalininrad Oblast

and sroctanga Gavan' aro

lucnted.

Л.

If you know well, then miy do you not tell:

B.

lell, what did I bot say, my did I not say:

I havo said.

whore Sovetskaya Gavan' Is.

There Is and was no Sovctakayn Gavan' In Prisorslily Kray.

I know how much you know shout Sovotskaya Gayan'.

Thoy told you overythine, but they forgot one thing.

•You know, one can turn everything upssde down as nuch ns nocossary

- (ugouno) .

As much as 1a usclul (urolno), one nay turn everythini upside down.

A. Il I boglo to turn cverything upside down, probably. thore will not

Do a Ilvint scrap loft of you.

в.

But do you thin. thoro is still any llvins scrap loft of mor

A. Thoro still is - you do not leol so bad..

((Pauso))

Well, tell no about the procodure of your acceptanco into tho Party,

ag a momber or candidate menher -- it does not matter ((wilch)); tell

about either case.

B.

Candidato members of the Party (XG)....

Thoy rave mo reierences (kharalteristika), three reicrences....

If you were a memher of the Komsomol....

A. Call then by their names -- they are not called reforences (kharakter-

1stika); they are called sonothing else.

If you know, say so.

I do not have to remiud you of all kinds of nonsense.

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## Page 70

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no lad are tacy called.

•Ol:, reconarnintions (rehonenuntalya).

Tree recoumendattong, for CISU

neahere,

They have to know me. not lour tian nycar.

(b) ooventh Department.

A. Very well, you recolved thico

reconmendations, 'Bron Party

menbers.

.By won sore the threo roconmondationg verified:

No verifies thom:

Tho Secretnry of the Party Committco

of

the Sccond Directornte.

1. So. ((Pausc)) Mat olso.

B. Tho applicaton (zayavloniyo).

It is revioved at tho buronu, by the Party Bureau of the primary

Party orcanization::

Then.

A. Besides tho application, what olsor

B. Thoro

is tho application and tho threo recommondations:

A. That else:

B. That 1s all.

A. That is not all.

B. ((Pause)) I do not remember.

A.. You have not naned the basic docuent.

((pause)) What is the rest of the procedure:

B. 1h18 matter 1s esauined In the Party Bureau of the Soventh Departnert.

The Party Bureau makes a decision - It nade the decision to recorichu

SEGRET

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## Page 71

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Ton It In presented at the Party neatint of the l'arty orcaniaation

of the departuent.

The Party nectim: conflend the decloton of the Party Bureau.

Then tils macter

Is cranince hy the boity buread of the Party

• Committec of

the chief Directorato.

1. Is 16 30:

B.

(XG) It scens at

tho

Party. Purcau of the chief Dircctorate.

A.

Is it sor

IS. (XG)

.A.. Ihat olso:

B.

And thes, to tho Party Connittoo of tho KGB -- tie Partion; this

Committoo makes the final decision.

A .

Woll, how does the Party Committoo actually put this matter.

B.. Tho Secrotary of the Party organization of tho departmont went with

me, and the socrotary of the Party orcanization of tho Directorate

was present at the Burcau of the Party Comnittee of the Committee

((for Stato Security»).

A.

Was he a momber of the Burcau

В. Усв, уев.

A. What cise:

B. Hell, the Party Comnittec confirmed ((the decision)) and congratu-

lateú ((me)) upon my acceptance as a candidato menter.

In a low day's I was called and I recelved the candidate seaber's

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## Page 72

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Mentification.

Л.

men I asted you about Party rajon connittee (ragkon), I had a

basis

for this.

77118 all is talen into account in the Konsonol

record.

В.

Yes, yes.

A. You were placed

on the Komsonol list in 1953, you incre supposed to.

have been not only on the list of the komsomol Conmittco of NVD,

but also in the konsonol raylom.

B. No, I was not; I was not.

A. Then you wore not on it.

B. Well, how was I not on it?

A. Very simplo.

B. No, no; I do not remember; I do not remembor.

A. It is bad that you do not remember.

( (Long, pause)) Nell, maybe you will arrive at the truth, if 1t is

your wish.

B. Honestly, honestly -- it is just as I told you.

There is no....

A. Thy throw yourself away with "honestly", if it is not so.

Remember that earlier you told an entirely different story.

You were a major, and anything else you wanted.

Do you renenber that:

B. I said that I tas a major, because they would not belleve me that I

jumped through the ranks like that.

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## Page 73

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A .

Mint a do you think:

they will beliove this

Bo nut that to the say lt was, i toll you.

A

The Tal I! "99

- that is say they cannot bellove you.

Once a man ((says he)) was, and the

second

tinc -ho was not.

B. But I toll you that I vas not.

Why:

Because they would not believe ne - that I....

A. Alright - If they tave it to you, then for what services did thay

civo 1t.

I told you that oven GAGARIN was not promoted 11l:0 that.

What aro you:

ercater hero than a cosmonaut of the Soviet Union:

Il you becamo. ((a hero)), then for what?

B.

Well, I will isivo you an example.

In 1960, TOPTYGIN came to our deputment as chiol; they gave bim a

rank -- a primary rank - of sentor licutenant.

"In 1961, he wis made a major; he sas novor a captain, but became

a major directly.

In 1902, after a year, he becane n

Ilcutenant colonel, because ho

vas chlof of a department.

A. Because there was a reason - they came in without rank.

B.

Well, they rave them ran!: innediately.

Well, they were laughing -- when SIFLEPIN care in, the chief of

the Sccretariat - Immediately after DOBROIOIOTOV - he at once

becane a colorel., (XG)

A young fellow, and they inmedintely made hin a colonel.

A. liell, my not. (2-3G)

Tell me why they gave it to you.

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## Page 74

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::.

They tood le love, locats:

au: not was a captain at tac Clus i

TAS

cupponed to.

I had spent a long period of time as a senior lieutenant until o

becane a captain.

(2-30) en 1009 sor major.

1. Tint he had been infeeted with conortoch,

that he had misused

oporational docinents - there were

his treat soirices.

B. But that was In 1954.

If a man has mado a slip, an error.

A. In 1951, you also left the Komsomol.

•B. I left because of ngo: Lecruso of age

I loft.

..You did not work; you did not preparc yoursclf to enter the

Patty :

B..

I prepared myself; I worked in the department; I prepared mysolf

to .cotcr

the Party.

I tool: an activo part in the farty voris of the department:

A. Well, you will nover prove it to me, no mattor how hard you try.

D. I am not provlie....

л.

Not only to me, but to anyone.

Betreen us, if you were to tell this to GRIBANOV, he would say,

"Vot, nuca!", 1f 10 1s still alive.

((Pauso)) Do you renenter wat Party dues you paid:

I have the Regulations (Ustav) iere; (XG).

•B. (NG) percent.

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## Page 75

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three

parent: not clar

Nothin olde a thied perccut.

D. Fron evorything, Including ((pay)) for ronli, for lonceulty, for

Innunco - ior the entire sun pald.

Л. iion сії

thay (fre-) )introduce the pay for

rank:

B.

In 1955.

Mon thoy logan prying for ran! again, thoro ins a frent problem.

For many of tho fellons, they becan to cut tho rank.

Tant Is, to allin (rilullahat') -- lot us say, a senior ense officer;

ho 10 a loutenant colonol; he boorie a major.

Nonsongo.

Do not talk nonsenso.

B. What aro you tolline no?.

Many of our follows suffered fron these cuts ((in ran!:)).

mo can mako a denotion in raal or to renove a rants.

Who:

B. Just a minuto; that is what happened.

What aro you telling no:

A.

No.

B. In tho Soventh Departnient -- (2-3G) was a lieutenant colonol, ho

became a major; GUSIV vas a lieutenant colonel, he

las made a unjor;

SUKILANOV

was a colonel....

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## Page 76

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no not mate tate up.

mind a dild ticy otnrt gloth; then other ianr

(1G) .

( (End

of Ricol #11))

SECRET

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