COMMITTEE BUSINESS - EXECUTIVE SESSION
Originator: HSCA
Document date: 07/13/1978
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/14/20

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER :

RECORD SERIES :

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

HSCA

180-10116-10327

TRANSCRIPTS OF EXECUTIVE SESSION HEARINGS

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE:

HSCA

COMMITTEE BUSINESS - EXECUTIVE SESSION

DATE: 07/13/1978

PAGES:

29

SUBJECTS :

HSCA, MESTHODOLOGY

HSCA, ADMINISTRATION

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: Open in Full

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 08/17/1993

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS: Box 1. Folder title: Executive session committee business.

v9.1

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12L8

CAPS

CTR

EXECUTIVE SESSION

-(COMMITTEE BUSINESS MEETING

5

-M

Thursday, July 13, 1978

House of Representatives, att

Select Committee on

Assassinations, mu

washington 2

Al The dommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:50 ederock a.m.

in Room 1310, Longworth House Office Building, the Hongmatte

Louis stokes (Chairman of the dommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Stokes (presiding), Fauntroy,

Dodd, Ford, Fithian, Edgar, Mckinney and Sawyer.

R.

Also present: G. Robert: Blakey, T. Howarth, E. Berning and

Morrison, Professional Staff Members.

§tokes

we chairman

:..→

The committee will come to order.

The Chair will recognize Mr. Blakey for a statement.

Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, the subject to be brought before

the Committee this morning basically deals with the nature of the

investigation. It would be appropriate to go into executive

session.

Stokes

The Chairman The Chair will entertain a motion.

Mr. Fauntroy. So move.

The Chairman. It has been properly moved that the committee

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go into executive session at this time for the reasons stated.

I The flerk will call the roll.

Berning. Mr. Stokes.

MI •

stokes. Aye:

Ms. Berning. Mr. Devine.

No response l

Ms. Berning. Mr. Preyer.

No response.]

Ms. Berning.:

Mr. Mckinney:

No response,

Ms. Berning.

Mr. Fauntroy:

Mr. Fauntroy.

Aye..

Ms. Berning.

Mr. Thone.

No response.]

Ms. Berning.

Mrs. Burke.

No response.

Ms.

Berning.

MI.

Sawyer.

Mr. Sawyer. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Dodd.

Mr. Dodd. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Ford.

Mr. Ford.

Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian.

Aye.

Ms. Berning:

MI. Edgar.

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Mr:

Edgar. . Aye.

Ms. Berning. Seven ayes, Mr. Chairman.

Stakes

the Chairman

Seven members having voted in the affirmative,

this meeting is now in executive session and all members of the

are

public

she asked

to exclude themselves.

Whereupon, unauthorized persons left the hearing: room, and the

Committee proceeded in executive session

Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, the first issue that the committee

ought to address itself to is two immunities on the King side.

The Committee has before it a resolution asking for staff permis-

sion to go to court to secure immunity for clarence Hanes and

Naomi Denny.

I note that it will be required that we have eight committee

members present during this. Might I suggest the parliamentary

procedure that the matter be considered and a slow vote be

undertaken.

I understand that a proxy from ehotcas

a Preyer 1s

on the way to the fommittee at this time.

[Pause]

Mr. Blakey.

My suggestion was that after the fommittee has

considered the suggestion for immunity for these two individuals,

it might be appropriate to undertake a slow vote. I understand

that Mr. Preyer's proxy is under way, and we need eight votes on

the issue.

We have seven people present now.

I would be glad to answer any questions about either of the

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two immunities.

Tre

Chairman

"Any, questions?

We may move on to something else and then come back to

this?

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Do we have a motion?

Mr. Fithian. I so move, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. It has been properly moved, then, that the

Committee authorize the requested immunity order.

The Clerk will call the roll.

Ms. Berning.

Mr. Stokes.

The Chairman. Aye.

Ms.. Berning.

Mr. Devine.

(No response.)

A poo Berningo Mo Preyero

A [No response o]

Ms. Berning.

No response.]

MI. McKinney•

Ms. Berning. Mr. Fauntroy•

Mr. Fauntroy. Aye.

Ms. Berning. MI. Thone.

No response.

Ms. Berning. Ms. Burke.

No response.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Sawyer.

Mr. Sawyer. Aye.

Ms. Berning. MI. Dodd.

Mr. Dodd. Aye.

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Ms.

Berning.

Mr. Ford.

Mr. Ford. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar.

Aye.

I Chairman stasea o

Ms, Berning We will suspend the counting of the told

call until a subsequent time, and we will come back to the

roll call.

Mr. Blakey:

MI. Chairman, the next and probably most

important item on the agenda is the Committee's supplemental

funding request.

The committee has before it a memorandum outlining the

nature of that request, coupled with a number of supporting

pages. Basically the outline is where we have been and where

we can reasonably expect to go between now and December 31g

The budget has been cut by the staff really about as deep

as

we can. I think it is fair to say that it is razor thin

with the expectation that we go through December 31s continuing

both investigations, frankly, or at least keeping the options

open to continue them both right through December. It is

particularly important on the King side that that option be

kept open.

I note that over the

two-year period what had been

estimated as a $5 million budget, would be, if this supplemental

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were adopted, be only 1.8 percent off the original estimate.

In fact, I would commend on the record Tom Howarth for having

estimated the budget so well on all occasions. If the House

had given us the money we had originally asked for, of $500,000,

the only amount that we really would have been off was the

value of the basic scientific projects, and that, indeed, was

a matter brought to their attention at the time. We didn't

include it in the original budget because we did not know in

January and February exactly what those figures would be?

I/ we did, I remember specifically Mr. Preyer indicated to them

that we would probably come back for a supplemental on that.

So in effect, what we are doing is coming back for a supplemental

on the scientific projects, and the relatively minor cost

overrun which is primarily attributable to the cost of travel

and telephones •

Stokes

Chairman.

Questions of any members?

MI. Fithian?

ME. Fithian.. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just ask that Mr. Blakey and MI. Howarth provide

us with some information as to what happens in December. I

haven't gotten all the way through the budget, but obviously

our whole investigation will be done and public hearings will

be done. We will still have the need for staff to do the

et cetera,

reporting, eter but I would trust that the phase out

Mr. Blakey. In the best of all possible worlds, which

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this is not, we will end on December 3155

hand in our report;

and quit.

Because this is not the best of all possible worlds,

the likely result will be is that the lommittee will have to go

back to the Congress for probably 90 days extension into the

next Congress and spend an as yet undetermined amount of money.

certainly a relatively small figure to maintain a skeleton

force, to process the report through the agencies, through

the Government Printing Office, and to transfer its files

to wherever they will ultimately be transferred. This buaget

aims to end us at the end of this Congress when technically

our life is over with anyway.

I If, in fact, we determine in December when it will

be appropriate to determine that there is a need for a wind-up

time, this is a practice virtually universally followed by

conmittees. For example, all of our bills won't come in

in December for the month of December.

I there will have to

be the skeleton force around for 6ó d90 days just to process

the bills, but what we are talking about is a relatively routine

process of cleanup in the next Congress, certainly no hearings,

certainly no investigation after December

SToles

chattman

-Mr. Fithian?

Mr. Fithian. And one further question.

Might it be possible to never have to go back to the

House for that final mopping up operation if we could get

House Administration simply to take on the responsibility of

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payment of the remainder of the staff to finish out the

purely routine?

Blakey

No; I think what happens is that all

committees of the House die at the end of the Congress, and

technically every committee around here doesn't exist for one

day, and then you must be reauthorized in the new Congress.

This Congress cannot bind anything beyond the 31st.

Mr. Fithian.

No; I understand that. : I didn't make my

question clear, obviously.

The House Administration Committee sometimes lumps in

a whole series of little incidental type expenditures, rather

than to retain of ask that this fommittee be reconstituted

for

any part of the next Congress, do you follow me.

In other

words, whoever was doing the mopping up-exercises would be

employees of the House Administration Committee.

Mr. Blakey.

I suppose that could be done. It would

probably be just as simple to have the continuing resolution

and put us in, and having explained at the time this was

mop-up.. It would be appropriate to have our life continued fox

legal purposes so that the staff could represent the committee

in negotiations with the agencies. That is what I think may

happen. The commitment has always been from the agencies. to

disclose the information to us subject to a review before

final declassification. The memorandums of understanding are

between this committee and the Department of Justice, this

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Committee and the CIA. It would be appropriate to have this

Committee finally negotiate those positions.

Edgar

Mr. Chairman.

Stokes

Fre Chairman.

Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar. Just a point following up on Mr. Fithian's

comments I would hope that some research has been done on

exactly how to do what you are talking about. beause

I

remember the last two congresses, we took the first to

weeks

of January off, and the first legislative day was not until

mid-January at the earliest, 18th, 19th, 20thg ana There is a

great deal of organizational work that is done there, and I

would hope that we wouldn't find ourselves in a position where

we die on the 3lst and have to ask our staff to be volunteers

for a month.

Mr. Blakey. It is unlikely that the staff would, given

the history of the last similar request. Nevertheless, there

has to be a resolution introduced by House Administration for

all Committees, Judiciary on, and it would be appropriate to

put us in there, and it would be extremely unusual for us to

be taken out. It would require a vote for us to be taken

out. And if it is put simply as clean-up, which is what it would

be, I doubt that it would present an issue of controversy.

Stokes

The Chairman.

I think maybe what Mr. Edgar has in mind

is a pay lag system that occurs in January.

Mr. Blakey. It is only a day and every committee suffers

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it.

This committee would be no afferent than any of the

others.

StoKes

(/ me

Chairman

well, we would undergo a period where in

the Democratic Caucus we go through the process of electing

Chairmen of committees, etc., and so forth, and until such

time as you haveapproval of that, there are no fommittees,

I don't believe, in operation.

Mr. Blakey. The staffs continue from year to year, though.

They are paid continuous from year to year.

Mr. Edgar. But the staff continues because the jurisdiction

and the authority for the staff, for the committee, goes from

Congress to Congress.

Mr. Blakey. No. At the beginning of each Congress

there must be a

new, in the House, a new resolution creating

each committee anew, including the Judiciary Conmittee. It

does not continue.

sue ChalIman:

STores

That is the first order of business?

MI. Blakey. Yes.

pass

Mr. Howarth. Also of course, they have to put a

resolution to finance the committees on a temporary basis,

which covers all fommittees that are in existence. If you

recall, the resolution continues the fommittees more or less

at the same level of expenditure that they had the previous

year until the House acts on their funding resolution for the

current year.

so all committees have to be extended

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financially. Tameans do Committee has any funds until this

general resolution is passed.

Stokes.

Chairman

As that applies to select.committees,

standing committees I can understand having to be funded in that

way, but how about select committees?

The resolution applies to all committees.

MI. Howarth.

well-it is-in-the-resolutron. It has

happened each year that is how we had a problem,

you will

problem we had

remember the first year,

last year, when we were restricted

our level of expenditure, until we received our

to about $83,000

Imeanit.does-coverralruconmist.tees.

permanent funding. Of course we would have to be re-created,

the.thingais.werwouldrhave.to.be.created.againlikenanywother

that is done;

committee, but once wenwerencreated, we would come under the

general funding resolution.

Stokes

The Chairman, Anything further?

MI. Fauntroy?

MI. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman, I am not sure that this is

the point at which you would want to consider some amendments;

but I have now had an opportunity to look over this budget

and I would agree with counsel that it is razor thin, but in

that regard, we certainly have to commend the staff for the

very tasteful way it handled the very difficult task of reducing

staff so that we come in at this level, but I think that it

is perhaps too razor thin a budget to take forth at this time,

and particularly in light of some of the things that I am

concerned about in the King investigation. I feel we need

a little more latitude for some contingencies, and therefore I

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would simply recommend and will make a motion at the appropriate

time to add, oh, a $60,000 contingency fund, that would bring

it up to $750,000 and would afford us

some latitude to carry

out what appeared to me to be potentially productive follow-up

leads that we are now continuing to pursue.

Mr. Blakey:

That would be very useful, Mr. Fauntroy.

Obviously what we don't spend we will give back.

This

committee has a unique history of, in fact, not spending money

back

given to it.

We turned beet $450,000 the first session, and

if there is a little flexibility in the budget, that shouldn't

cause any trouble.

MI. Sawyer.

Why not make it $100,000 so we go $790,000?

I don't like those round figures like $750,000. You never bill

legal bills that way. It always looks too arbitrary.

Mr. Fauntroy. I would have no objection to that.

I suspect

that once our submission is made, those of our detractors in

the press will say it is more than a halfmillion dollar

reguest. If it got up to $750, 000, they would say three-quarters

of a million:

So $790,000 wouldn't make much difference.

STokes

The Chairman, And they are probably going to cut us some

anyway, so I think that whatever the committee feels is appro-

priate ought to be entered as the budget figure.

Mr. Blakey. I might add, Mr. Chairman, this budget was

not framed with a notion that there was need to cut it, as

indeed, the last budget was not framed with the notion that there

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was room to cut it.

StaKes

Chairman

-As I say, with the realization that this is

a barebones budget, your figure of $690,000, I think Mr. Fauntroy

is right and Mr. Sawyer, we ought to have some leeway for

some contingencies.

MI. Fauntroy. If it is therefore appropriate, Mr. Chairman,

I will move that we add the contingency item of $100,000 to

the budget proposed by staff.

Stokes

he Chairman You are talking about a total figure of

$790,000?

Mr. Fauntroy. We are talking about a total figure of

$790,000.

Stakes

The Chairman. Is there any discussion?

If not, then the clerk will call the roll.

Mr. Ford. This is on the $790,000? It is on the

$790,000 rather than the additional?

Stokes

she Chairman

The motion is for a total figure of

$790,000 for the submission of the budget.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Stokes.

Stokes

The Chairman,

Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Devine.

(No response.!

MA •

Berning. Mr. Preyer.

[No response.]

Ms. Berning. MI. McKinney.

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I. Eno response.l

Ms. Berning: Mr. Fauntroy.

Mr. Fauntroy. Aye.

Ms. Berning. MI. Thone.

No response.]

Ms. Berning. Mrs. Burke.

No response

Ms. Berning. Mr. Sawyer.

Mr. Sawyer.

Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Dodd.

No response.

Ms. Berning. MI. Ford.

Mr. Ford. Pass.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar. No.

Ms. Berning. Four yeas,

one no, and one pass.

MI. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest it might be

appropriate to take that vote over.

Stokes

chairman. All right, then without objection, the

previous vote will be expunged from the record, and the clerk

will call the roll.

MS. Berning. Mr. Stokes.

Stokes

The Chairman Aye.

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9) Ms. Berning. Mr. Devine.

No response.)

Ms. Berning. Mr. Preyer.

No response.

Ms. Berning. Mr. McKinney.

No response

Ms. Berning. MI. Fauntroy.

Mr. Fauntroy. : Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr.

Thone.

No response.]

Ms. Berning.

Mrs. Burke.

No response,]

Ms. Berning. Mr. Sawyer.

MI. Sawyer. Aye.

Ms. Berning: Mr. Dodd.

Mr. Dodd. Aye.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Ford.

Mr. Ford. Pass.

Ms. Berning. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Aye.

Ms. Berning, Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar. No.

ME. Berning. Five ayes, one no, and one pass, r Chairmans

The Chairman.

What is te parliamentary situation?

Mr. Blakey.

That is sufficient, Mr. Chairman.

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I Now, we have one vote in process waiting for i

Chaizman!.

On this, also?

Mr. Blakey.

I am sorry. It would be appropriate to

state that the resolution passes:

Stokes

The Chairman All right, then, five nembers having voted

in the affirmative, the resolution is adopted.

Professor Blakey?

Mr. Blakey Mr. Chairman, we have one vote in process

awaiting the arrival of Mr. Preyer's proxy. In that interim

it might

be appropriate for me to note for the benefit of

the fommittee several items. One, Charlie Mathews will be by

to see each of the Members individually to discuss the question

of

specialization for the upcoming King and Kennedy hearings.

The hearings have been outlined by subject matter. I made an

effort myself to specialize people and I found it just simply

wasn't appropriate for me to do it without getting your judg-

ments first about the areas where you would like to specialize,

and with a clear idea & when that material may come up in the

hearings.

By the end of this week or certainly the middle of next,

MI.

Mathews will certainly be around for you and he will ask

you to

set out your preferences oge through 17. I will come

back and shuffle them to try to maximize your preferences, and

then come back to you with a tentative list of specialization,

land then you people can work among yourselves to make sure

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everybody gets basi ally what they are most interested in.

I second, you ought to be aware that yesterday the committee

secured a write of habeas corpus ad testificandum for James

Earl Ray to appear in the August hearings. It was done over

the objections of Mark

Lane. Fortunately, Judge Bryan ruled

in favor of the committee. What you ought to be aware of is

the end of

next week, with the Chairman and a small delegation

of the committee will go down to Brushy Mountain to speak with

Mr. Ray, in an effort to secure his cooperation in the hearings

and perhaps to take a polygraph.

You also ought to be aware that we will try to schedule

next week probably on Monday night an optional briefing for

all the membership to bring you up to date exactly where the

investigations are on both King and Kennedy: Outlines of the

final reports have been prepared in both. Summaries of the

investigations have been prepared on both sides. The King case

is in a very dynamic situation, and the Chairman has said

it is appropriate that all of you ought to be brought up to

date, and we will try to do that, as I said, Monday night at

the briefing. It is optional. There won't be any business

discussed, but you may'want to hear exactly where we are.

Mr. Edgar. Would counsel yield?

Mr. Blakey. Yes.

MI. Edgar. The briefing is this Monday night?

At whatshi me?

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Blakey.

It would be after Congress goes out of

Р. н.

session, about 5 set, and we will find an appropriate room.

you ought to also be aware that the committee is moving

to a situation where there may

be a confrontation between

it and the Department of Justice. The committee has asked

for and not received access to certain informant files in

Memphis. It has

M well, Mr. Chairman, I was just reminded

by the clerk that that amendment was an amendment to the

budget. but not an adoption of the budget itself.

Stokes.

Faa Chairman, Well, it is a question of interpretation.

The motion, as I understood it, by MI. Fauntroy was that we

submit the büdget in the amount of $790,000 rather than

amending it as such.

Mr. Blakey. All right, then we are okay:

To go back, it is likely that the Department of Justice

will deny us access to those informant files, and it may be

necessary for the fommittee to subpgena them. You will

probably receive that subpfena application sometime next week.

There will be a detailed justification on it. I simply draw

it to your attention at this time.

You ought also to be made aware that the committee has

mäde an effort to interveiw a man named Maxie, Dr. Maxie in

Missouri who apparently was one of James Earl Ray's physicians

inside the prison and who we have information that leads us

to believe that he was involved in the drug traffic in the

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prison.. Dr. Maxie's doctor has told us now that he is too

old and too senile to talk to us. This comes after his family

had first told us that he is bright and chipper and would be

glad to talk to us. We will make an effort to secure an

independent doctor's examination of DI. Maxie.

I I do not think we need a specific resolution for that, but

since this moves us into a potential confrontation, I thought

it would be appropriate to bring it to the attention of the

committee.

The committee also ought to be aware that the discussion

of what to do about the Russians, any possible resolution being

introduced in the House calling on their cooperation is

proceeding at pace. A meeting is to be set up between the

Department of State and the committee to secure their help

in going to the Russian embassy as a kind of a one last

effort before a resolution is introduced.

Stokes

we Chairman Let me interrupt, counsel. I just had

a thought with reference to the possibility of a subppena

for thenfiles of the Department of Justice. What would the

legal situation be in that event?

MI. Blakey. If we subpferaed them on a day certain, the

Department would either have to produce them or have an

adequate legal reason for not doing so.

And it would be my judgment that they have none, in which

case, the committee would be in a posture much like the United

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States District Judge in the Southern District. We would be

facing a situation where the Attorney General might well be held

in contempt, this time in contempt of Congress as opposed to contempt

of court in the Southern District.

Stokes

Chairman!

seei

Mr. Blakey. It would be a very interesting contempt.

We

would have one or two choices. We could either recommend to him

that he prosecute himself for contempt, or that he appoint a

special prosecutor to prosecute him for contempt, of that we

bring him before the bar of the House for a hearing on contempt.

I add, at this point, that this suggestion is notmalicious

on my part, as much as I have indicated on the record that I

would like to see this committee have an inherent contempt, this

isn't one being pressed by me for personal reasons.

Mr. Ford. Mr. Chairman, while weare waiting while we

are waiting I would like to know if it would be all right for.

this connittee to move in a direction where starting Monday

night with the briefing of the full Committee and. the fommittee

members, that we would be able to bring at least one of our

people, a staff person connected with our office, inasmuch as

we are moving into

the August, you know, the public hearings,

if we are going to do that, I personally would like to have a

staff person that I could work constantly with, younknars here

in Washington while I'm back home in the district.

Mr. Blakey. There would be two elements, Mr. Ford, inasmuch

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as we talk about the hearings and the plans to use unclassified

material, there would be no problem with the staff person being

present. If we wanted to summarize the investigations as

they actually are in both King and Kennedy, and we got into

classified material, the staff person would not be permitted to

be present.

Mr.

Ford.

Well, we could ask him to leave, but I think

at some point we ought to bring them in now. For my sake, you

know, I need a staff person working with us to be briefed on

certain issues and certain things that are going to be brought

out. If it is all right with the chief counsel along with the

given

chairman, I would like to see us next week some time toshave the

permission to bring staff people in.

Mr. Blakey. Except for one area, apart from the classified

question, which we could reveal, except for one area on King,

it might beappropriate. I would be most reluctant to, at the

delicate current stage of the investigation on the King side,

to increase the number of staff people aware of that investigation.

For example, the entire committee staff will not be there, the

entire dommittee staff has not been made aware of, indeed, the

entire King staff has not been made aware of our pursuit of

certain conspiracy allegations. We have not had a leak up until

this point.

Mr. Ford. I don't see any problem with that. We can tell

the staff a younknos when they have to step outreyouknow or

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certain information they are not privy of or what have you.

Stokes

Othe

Chairman. I think MI. Fithian is seeking recognition.

Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to strongly support Mr. Ford, and I want to say

this. It seems to me as we prepare, Mr

Blakey, for the public

hearings, that segregation of material f

that which can and

which cannot be made public is incumbent upon you and the

staff in any event. That has to be carefully done, and done in a

timely fashion, and all I would want, quite honestly, a

be able

obvously for my staff person is to work

to help me coordinate

and prepare for the public hearingo and theretore;

we go

along, you will have to segregate the information and the material,

in any event, and as you segregate by section, by parts of inquiries,

by parts of the investigation, it seems to me that we could hav

oustaston permit our staff to have access to that which is

no doubt going to be used in the public hearing.

And I am only concerned about the public hearing at this point.

All of us have carried the classified section ourselves on the

Committee. I am only concerned about the public hearing anyway.

Mr. Blakey. Insofar as we talk about the hearings, there

is no problem. Insofar as we talk about the full investigation,

the personal staff people would probably have to be on a revolving

door; in and out, in and out, and what I am questioning here is

the utility for them coming and asking them to leave over major

portions of the briefing. It might be more appropriate to bring

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the staff people in when we focus squarely on the hearings, as

indeed we will, as soon as specialization is fully completea.

Mr.

Fithian.

session might not be the

So you

are saying that this Monday night

best

session.

Mx. Blakey.

It might not be the best time to begin.

Mr. Fithian. I am not quarreling with that, but I just want

to join in or saying I want to move a staff person in soon.

don't want it to be to days before we begin public hearings.

Mr. Dodd. Will the gentleman yield on that point?

Mir. Sawyer

I would,

Mr. Chairman,

like to support what Harote is

suggesting hererandtton

informanky We have all discussed with

each other here the necessity to have some sort of help, particularly

during the public hearing process. I think most of us had a

staff person assigned in our own offices some time ago to this

area, amdthem In my own case, that staff person has left my

employment, and I don't even know what they are doing, but I think

in the case of everyone else, trean they haven't done anything

yousknow, for a long time because of the nature of our hearings.

I was curious myself about trying to bring someone on to

work with me over the next thige of for months, and it raised

through the. Connitteesthesstaft the possibility of going back

and maybe getting some of those people that we no longer have

with us. I realize there are particular special problems involved

with that, issues that Mr. Blakey raised that I think are entirely

legitimate.

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I would like to add as a request hered dince I would like to

be able to have someone work with me,

If there is a

possibility

of getting someone fromsthe Committeesthat the Committee is aware

Who

helpful someone

of, that would be a good person to have, that they may have dealt

with or someonesthey would have brought on, at didn't, because they

where

reached a level, they couldn't bring anyone else on, and I just

would like

to be able to have someone, and I don't know what pool

of resources to go to, to get someone who would have a good working

knowledge of the thing before we begin.

Mr. Sawyer's

Bur I would like to endorse Haroldus concept. I think we

are absolutely going to have to have it.

Mr. Blakey. One of the things that is going to happen or

is happening is that senior staff counsel are being assigned

precisely the areas in which each of you will be specializing,

and you will be directly, personally briefed by the senior staff

people.

Mr. Dodd. It gets more complicated than that, Bob. We

to deal with

are going to have, you know, werare goingato have our own local

press an addition to what goes on here, anglere willoming into

the office,

concerning

and what are yon doing, and we, as individual members,

handle

have

do all of that in terms of what was actually said and

get some. help

what wasn't, and we have to providesnot to be hit with it.

I think we are being awfully shortsighted, in terms of the demands

that are being placed on us as individuals, during that time period.

And I think as much knowledge as these people are going to

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have, without encroaching on the very sensitive areas you have

outlined, than is really stainy at this point.

Fath inkswe

Mr. Sawyer's

are.probably.going.torhavertorhaverrand I would support Haroldes

help

idea, and I would add only tothat that I would like some personal.

from

the committee,coming up with someone who could be helpful to

me

personally that I would put on my own payroll during this period.

Stakes

" The chairman, I see no problem in working that out.

Mr. Dodd, I have a request, Mr. Chairman.

How about

duringthese-orreringsessions,

ou are talking about having

informal briefing sessions beginning on Monday, or at least

having one on Monday about where things are.

Weat about

S

we

when

kinow

eventually pull the thing together, when we havergotten the

why nots

areas of specificity where we are going to be working,

to have some

sort of cell meetings with that staff person from

Baät committee?

Mr. Blakey. Let me outline what will happen. We have

outlined August and September, into 17 subject matters, covering

the entire Kennedy hearings and the first phase of the King

hearings. They have been assigned to senior staff people to

outline in detail. Those outlines will include the suggested

text of the narration, the suggested witness lists, and the questions

to be asked of the witness, our recommendation as to whether

cross=examination would be appropriate of that witness, and if

cross-examination is appropriate, what it should sound like, the

specialization of at least two Members of Congress on that witness,

what areas those two fembers of Congress might want to raise with

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this witness, all of the exhibits and demonstrable evidence that

might be introduced on that day. When all of that is outlined

and the backup material that supports it is put together and

the specialization has been cranked into it, a senior staff person

will come and

work with the Congressman or the Congressman and

his staff in that area.

I The books will be prepared on each of the areas so that it

will be possible for any member of congress to come and read.

directly through all the books, in effect, preview the entire

set of hearings. Once it gets outlined with that kind of specificity,

it will then be possible for the entire committee to sit in a

strategy session on exactly what the hearings look like , what

questions should be asked, what questions should be done on

certain days. By specializing like that, it should be possible

for a member of Congress to choose not

to be present on a certaing

day because he knows what is coming up and probably in the context

of the hearings, not necessarily missed, because major roles will

be played by different people on different days, although sme time

will be reserved for, probably under the Effeminate rule, los

each fember to ask any questions any day.

Well, I am sure you can remember in the hearing involving

Mr. Nosenko, how frustrating and ineffectual questioning of a

significant witness is under the filesminute rule. You get your

first question in and it goes on to the next person. The defector

really was wiped out by direct and cross-examination and then

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totally regained his posture and composure, and frankly began

to give the top level, he gained the upper hand in dealing with

the Committee because he talked all the time and the fommittee only

talked Elge minutes.

I so that if we can avoid that kind of situation in our hearings,

we would be much better off.

Mr. Chairman, it might be appropriate at this time to

resume the roll call on the immunity question.

Stakes

Chairman,

The Clerk will inform Mr. Mckinney at this

time of the motion.

Ms. Berning. There is a resolution to confer the immunity

Mr. McKinney

hat you have before you, Mr. Fithian made the motion.

We have

a vote.

Have you had a chance to l00k at

it?

Mr. McKinney •

Yes.

The Chairman,

stokes a right,

All right, continue the count.

Berning. Mr. McKinney. Aye.

Mr. MSKINNEY, p

Ms. Berning. And Mr. Preyer.

¿NO

response.

Ms. Berning.

Eight ayes, Mr. Chairman.

Stukes

The Chairman,

All right. Eight members having voted in the

affirmative, the immunity order is granted.

Mr. Blakey. There is nothing else to bring before the

committee at this time, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dodd.

You will let us know about the meeting on Monday

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night?

Пуг.

Blakey•

The Chairman, All right, if there is nothing further to

come before the committee at this time, the chair will adjourn

the meeting subject to the call of the Chair.

Whereupon, at i1:35 ededeek a.n., the fommittee recessed

subject to the call of the Chair.

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