NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPT, REEL #1.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/26/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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MATERIAL. REVIENED AT CIA HFADQUARTERS BY

HOUSE SELECT CO:MITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS STAFF MEMBERS

Released under the John F. Kennedy Assassination

Records Collection Act of 1992

(44 USC 2107 Note)

FILE TITLE/NUMBER/VOLUNE: TrANSCRIPT

NW 532166/17/17

Per/ 11

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DELETIONS, IF ANY:

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+- 10

4/25/78

DATE

RETURNED

4/25/78

REVIEWED BY (PRINT NAME)

Ken Ken

SURELL BRIOT

Silene South

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Kinite

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NO DOCUNENTS MAY BE COPIED OR REMOVED FROM THIS FILE

ISONED FOR LELEASE 1994

CHA LISTONCAL LOVE EN RIOGRAM

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i. Attached are 15 folders

containing English-language

translations of the 15 transcripts of the interrogations

of NOSENtO by DERYABIN during the period 26 July 1965 -

13 August 1965.

2. The following is a key to the transcripts:

a. A = DERYABIN.

b. B = NOSENKO.

c. ( ) = Single sets of parentheses enclose

transliterations.

d. (1G), (2G), (XG), (XM) = Indicate a number

of missing or garbled or otherwise unreadable words.

e. (( )) = Double sets of parentheses enclose

transcriber/translator remarks, explanations, etc.,

and additional information supplied by interrogator,

but not included in the interrogation.

i. (? ?) = Queried transcriptions are thus

indicated.

g.

.... = Ellipses indicated either a brief pause

in speech or an unfinished sentence.

h.

= Underlining, except in cases of book

and periodical titles, indicate emphasis in speech.

WARNING NOTICE - SENSITIVE INTELLIGENCE SOURCES AND METHODS

INVOLVED

E2 I'SPDET CL BY 011340

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- 2 .

3. We

request return of these transcripts when

your review

has been

completed.

Attachments:

15 Folders

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Reel # 1

26 July 1965

Following is the conplete translation of the verhatin transcript

TRANSLATION

!

A. I thin': we will speal: in Russian

You do not object:

B. No.

On the contrary, better in Russian, because in English I ((am))

no so ((sure of)) nyself....

A.

Over the last three years, toyether with my colleaques wom you

already know and who have vorised with you here -- ((those who))

questioned (doprashivall) ((you)), ((and those with whom)) you net

and became friendly, I also have taken an active part in your case

B. J'es.

A. Fron the very beginning, as soon as your case had begun

B. Unhunh ((affirmation of understanding))

A. And, as you already have been told during the discussions and the

investigation, a large part of what you have said cannot be accepted

ag true (za chistuyu

nonetu).

And one cannot accept that which you sald in your statenents

(pokazaniya), etc , in just the way that (tais kak) you said or

testified (rasskazyvali ili pokazyvall).

I think, therefore, that you understand this perfectly.

But, as far as the people wo worked with you, questioned you, and

met with you ((are concerned)), all of them to some degree speak

Russian - sone well, some not so well - ((but)) some do not know

the Russian. language at all; it is the same in your case (tozhe

samoye s Vashey storony): although your English language is good,

SEGREI

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still - quite understandably - there are sone expressions and

words which are difficult to understand.

And, as for as all of the persons no worked with you before this

((are concerned)), perhaps they do not know or understand Soviet

reality very well....

B. That is correct.

A.

... And therefore, perhaps, for then in some ((cases it was))....

B. ((Interrupts)) Not understood what I an explaining.

A. Not wholly understood; perhaps it was understandable to them, but....

B. ((interrupts)) But not in detail.

• - .

A. Not in detail.

I am here only for that reason -- in order to clear up all of

these misunderstandings which have arisen and existed.

I can tell you beforehand that at one time I worked in the KGB, 1n

Moscow, and lived there.

And I think that we, as forner colleagues and former Soviets, will

try to find a common language in our discussion and to clear up

everything that was not understandable to us and everything that

was not understandable to you.

If you have sufficient courage and understanding of what I will say,

I think that we will find a common language and finally we will

arrive at some conmon denoninator; we will not leave a single

puzzling question which would not have been answered or incorrectly

interpreted.

B. I agree with you absolutely.

I am wholly at your disposal.

A. Could you be precise:

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B. I am ready to answer all questions.

It is another affair that everything

• I say, everything, is understood

((is viewed or treated)) from the position that it is incorrect and

that I... so to speas, ((am)) false (fal'shiv) and came with a

definite assignment (opredelennoye zadaniye).

A. But how do you

think -- since, so to speak, you yourself have

already raised this question:

"They think that ((I an)) false, that

((1 was)) sent with a definite assignment", ete. -- how can you

yourself answer: Why are you in such a position

How can you explain this yourself.

B. Absolute distrust... absolute distrust, and then I already have

been thinking to myself very much; it already ((has been)) a long

time (bol'shoy srok): 479 days today.

479 days - this is neither ((179)) hours nor minutes....

Here ((there is)) quite simply the deliberate -- so, perhaps, to

speak - desire... the deliberate desire of the people (u lyudey) :

to make a case that... "Well, here a double agent (dvoynik) sits

before us"

As if this were ((their)) alm, ((their)) task.

((It 1s)) not ((their)) aim-task (tsel' -zadacha) actually to know

the truth; but ((instead, it is)) their ain-task to make such a case.

A. Hell, speaking in a friendly way, how do you consider ((this)) as a

counterintelligence (kontrrazvedka) officer:

Do you think that all of the people who worked with you have mis-

understood you, etc., so much that - without reason and without

any basis (osnovaniye) - they have held (("are holding" - derzhat))

you for more than 400 days:

As a counterintelligence officer, tell ((me)).

B. I can say only one thing: that I have said, I say, and I will say

until the end that I have conferred with absolutely no one; I have

not heard a single word from anyone regarding ((my)) travel (poyezdka)

here, '(and)) I shared with no one ((the thought)) that I want to

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stay abroad and not return to the Soviet tnion.

No one kinew about this.

A. Vell, anyway, I think you still have not completely understood what

I said....

B. ((Interrupts)) About what:

A.

.. About what I asked you.

What ("how" - kak) do you think:

There was and is sone basis - do you consider - for ((the fact))

that you were in such a position as you are now.

E. ... As I understood - the confusion of ny explanations and....

Hore, these monents, perhaps....

Ten....

I do not know, I do not know.

I have, strictly speaking - I cannot say why, why, what is the

reason ({'main point" - sut')).

I only know one thing -- that they do not believe me.

A. You yourself nentioned the word: "confusion of explanations"

(zaputannost' ob"yasneniy).

How do you explain this "confusion of explanations", if you see such

a "confusion of explanations"?

B. I do not see special:...

((you)) see -- when I... and your colleagues who preceded you (s

predydy shchini Vashimi kollegami) were talking together, even they

said to me: -"This here is a lie (vot zdes' nepravdu); this here is

a lie".

But the point is not in how I said ((it)) (A, ne v etom delo, kak ya

skazal).

I sald that "I took part"... "I did not participate".

The point is in that this fact took place or did not take place.

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framel

In this, I absolutely nowhere, nowhere, made any mistake or 11e.

A. As a counterintelligence officer, I think, you understand perfectly

that, having

given (('said" - skazavshi)) one fact, a person must

say whence he knows this ((fact)), how this occurred....

B. Correct, correct.

Well, so you understand

vhat. (( thus, as" - ta's kal:)) I say ((to you))

but how does it turn out (a chto poluchayetsya):

For

exasple, this Paris

case; I tell them what ((as" - kak)) I know.

"From

where do I know ((chis", they ask me)).

"Nonsense, nonsense" ( (they say)).

((Laughs))

How do I know:

"But these fellows... from IONOV's section (otdeleniye) told me

((I say)).

"No. Not so" ((they reply)).

Hell, I cannot say anything more.

• I heard ((about this case)) only from them.

Or they supposed (predpolozhili) such a fact: From whom did I first

find out about DE JEAN?

So, believe me, believe me; I do not remember vio ((was)) first,

from where ((I)) first ((found out about this)).

First of all, working in the KGB - here, if you please, is the

problen: they do not believe me ((when I say)) that rumors, gossip,

etc., pass (khodyat) among the workers there.

You have worked !(there)); you know, if you worked ((there)), how

it is: the First Department (otdel) has (('makes" - delayet)) a

case, but 10 departments (otdel) know that the First department is

doing something, something, ((although)) they do not know exactly

((what it is)).

But friends, those who have friends in the First Department, they

know a little more:

that, ahah! ((there is)) a case against an

American, but they do not know the name ((of the American)).

A. I think that in this respect they understood you perfectly, and I do

not think....

GENRET

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+4443460455 445i

wwwer@@sinests/.wnatyttan@teatisinetne@@onapresegtodytheciresnajpse/sese/czoherh-cate.totiing/st.tcomoe5a,./e.a.om2se

B. ((Interrupts)) "Xo," they tell

me, "This cannot ie.

What you are telling us is nonsense."

A. Not in all cases was ((this)) so stated -- that....

B. ((Interrupts)) And... believe me -- well, how:

What kind of trust or distrust can ((there)) be, if they say to my

face: "You did not, work in the First Section (otdel) of the First

Otdel ((during)) these years":

I cannot say anything.

True (pravil'no), in the ABIDIAN Case, I did not look very good,

but I said so ((myself)), that I did not work on it, did not conduct

his development (razrabotka); the file was charged to me (delo za

mnoy chislilos').

But how was it run:

So they surveilled ((him)), waited for ABIDIAN to show his ta:l

(khvost).

They do not believe me.

A. Well, about this....

We still will return to the case of ABIDIAN.

I know everything that you nave said about ABIDIAN and so fortb;

and, of course, as a forner employee of the KGB, I never in any way

can believe that you were the case officer for ABIDIAN.

B. I was not the case officer, I was deputy chief of the section....

A. The more so....

в.

((Interrupts)) And they thrust the case upon me, but this was a

terrible nistake (('gross error" -- grubaya oshibka)), a terrible

mistake of the department, because it ((is)) necessary to sit and

work on ((a)) case.

A.

Well, 11.... Farlier you said that ((you ire)) prepared to discuss

vidi

SECDET

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(razgovarivat') and....

B.

Yes.

A. And possibly to clear up everything

that....

B. Everything which has not been understood there....

A.

Everything which has not been understood

and so forth.

Let us suppose ((that there)) were very many questions ((about)) how

you began to work in the KGB, under what circumstances, etc.

I wish that we begin with (('fron" - s etogo voprosa)) this question,

starting - for example -- from the end of 1952 or the beginning. of

1953.

B. Good.

A. Thus we slowly will move further.

I have only one thing to discuss here; I hope that you will tell

the truth: you will explain, corroborate everything that you say,

and so forth.

B. ((Interrupts)) I ask that you put the questions to me.

I will try to answer for you everything that you will ask.

A. Also, ((be)) sufficiently accurate in your questions, etc., so that

there will be no misunderstandings of any kind....

B. ((Interrupts, repeating)) Misunderstandings.

• A. To me, for example, ((this is)) not wholly understandable -= you

yourself know that in the course of the long time you have been here

you have said several times that you went to work in the KGB - or,

as it was called then, the MGB; one time you said ((this took place))

in 1952, sometime in the autumn of winter; then you said ((this too!:

place)) in the beginning of 1953; then you said ((it was)) after the

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deatn of STALIN; and so forth.

T1X14

B

( 1G)

A.

Let us begin, even from the end of 1952; we will not go into details

((about)) what was before 1952.

Let us begin from 1952.

Whence and how did you show up (poyavilis') in the city of Moscow:

B. At the end of 1952 I arrived in Moscow from the city of Sovetsk,

Primorskiy Kray: this ((city)) is 10-15 kilometers from the city of

Baltiysk, formerly ((known as)) Pillau, ((a)) German ((city)) -- the

base of the Fourth Naval Fleet on the Baltic.

10-15 kilometers from this Baltiysk ((is)) the city of Sovetsk, where

my MRP - the Navy Intelligence Point (Horskoy Razvedyvatel'nyy

Punkst), at which I worked for several months in 1952 -- was located.

A. Good.

You arrived in Moscow from there.

When was this, and under what circumstances:

for what was it necessary for you to go to Moscow at this time:

B. I had a purpose (tsel').

A purpose stood before me: having come to Moscow, having come to

Moscow, to try - elther through the Ministry of the Navy, because

there still were woministries at that time, ((the Ministry)) of

the Navy and the Military ((Army - Voyennoye - Ministry)), separately,

not together.

A.

So.

B.

To try to get out of (uvil'nut') the work at this MRP and to think

of something new to transfer (pereyt1) ((to)) from ((this)) work.

Because this work absolutely did not suit me; I did not like it, I

did not receive any noral or other kind of satisfaction fron this

work.

SES

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Here, at this point, I worked only several months in all.

A .

So.

B. I absolutely did not like this work.

And I went to Noscow, went to lloscow; I took leave (("got leave" --

dobilsya otpuska)) and went to hoscow.

I just took leave, so:

the MRP commander did not pernit me ((leave)).

A. Well, in what, when

was this, in what month did you arrive ((in

Moscow)):

D. In December, I arrived at the end of December 1952.

A. At the end of December:

B. Yes.

A. At the end of December 1952 you came to Moscow fron- Sovetsk:

B. ((In a low voice, not confidently)) From Sovetsk, yes..

A. In plain language (prostym yazykov), explain to ne wat you did

(chen Vy zanimalis') ((during)) the first 3-4 days, when you had

arrived.

B. Well, I just cannot tell you this.

I have forgotten now.

I rested; I did not do anything.

A. I have in mind ((what you did)) as any officer ((does)); you were an

officer - I made ((this)) conclusion on the basis of your statements

(pokazaniya).

You came to Moscow, and so forth; well, alright (nu khorosho) -

you did not do anything, but the officer's duty demands ((that you))

come to someone and report that you have arrived in Moscow.

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. B.

((Interrupts)) Well, I did not come on ((an assigned)) business

trip (komandirovka) .

!

A. Upon

instruction

of

some (V ch'ye-to rasporyazhenlye)...:

B. ((Interrupts)) No.

A.

...On some kind of problems, etc.

You cannot just come, spit on everything and simply sit at home for

several

months.

B.

It is when you, ((when)) a person goes to Moscow on an ((assigned))

business trip (komandirovka), it is one case, but when a person goes

on leave (s otpusknyn svidetel'stvom), on leave I can -- not having

reported to anyone - spend ((my)) leave, return on time and report

to the unit (chast') commander, to whom I reported ((when)) leaving,

report that I have arrived ((i.e., returned)).

A.

Let. us assume you went to Moscow; how much time was given ((for))

your leave, a month or how much:

B. A month.

A. You went to Moscow; you do not report to anyone; you can live at

home, ((or)) wherever you wish, and so forth.

Good.

After three days, they announced a universal mobilization; what must

you do:

B. I must.

Here, in this case, I nust quickly, quickly - well, here, taking

into account the work at the MRP, ((tbe fact)) that I an in Moscow

and ((that)) the Ministry of the Navy is located in Moscow - I

quickly must telephone and say that I an en leave: I am to go back

to the unit or there will be some kind of instructions from you.

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A. But, unon arrival in Moscow, do you not have to register suneplace:

And,

il you wished to be a deserter and did not want -- there

is a

war, and you do not want to go to war, then how must they find you:

Here is the most simple routine question.

B. Well, in these events, you ses, all military units imediately, you

know very well, in the presence (v nalichii) (1G).

Say (('Give" -- Davay)), he says, who of us is present, who is not....

Such and such officers are not present.

There are they:

((B; i.c., Subject's fanily name)) is in loscow.

A. Please, we will not 50

into such details.

B. You ((yourself)) asked for such details (('so" - tak)).

A. I think the question was completely clear: you have come to koscow

on a month's leave; what must you do, who must know that you are on

leave:

The affair is not set up so that you ,you understand, have come, and

you hang around for a month, and if there had been war, ((you would

have said)) I will go to report.

If 1t were so, there would have been a million deserters.

Because people are on the register somewhere, and they know them

and that he is here on leave, ((that)) this officer is here, and

so forth, and if he is needed, one can call him.

B. So, according to the regulations (po ustavu), any officer - In the

event of a declaration of war, in the event of some kind of critical

situation - quickly interrupts his leave and returns to ((his)) unit.

A. according to the regulations, it is that which is said in the

regulations which also will be written up in the plan for mobilization,

and so forth....

B. ((Interrupts)) (XG - ? He quickly interrupts his leave :)

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1.

•..But apart from this, sonething else exists: some kind of rules,

which reguire that an officer do something upon arrival on leave in

any city of the Soviet Union, ((wether)) he goes home or he goes to

the Caucasus.

B.

About this, where I will be on leave is known to the commander of

the unit, the nilitary unit from which I departed, and....

This is understood...

B. Leave (otpusk), leave, and one goes where:

Such ((and such)) a city.

The Travel documents (proyezdnyye dokumenty) are written out in

the railway ((travel)) order (trebovaniye na zheleznuyu dorogu),

again to that city where you are going.

A. Let us stop here on this, the most simple question.

Even here, this little question: how did you go on leave (priyekhali

v otpusk):

And what did you do ((during)) the first days:

With your documents, etc., where ald you go, to tion did you report..?

B. ((Interrupts)) I did not report to anyone.

A. You have not explained articulately even to me.

B. I am explaining to you that I reported to no one.

A. The very same ((thing)) happened with all of the officers with whom

you have spoken previously (ran'she).

Sometines they did not stop yor:, they gave you an opportunity, you

talked and talked and talked.

But, believe ((me)), no one can buy ((it)) the way you say, that now

this is how it is.

Sovlet reality does not work that way, and the registration (uchet)

1s not carried on (ne vedetsya) in this way, and people do not travel

pains

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this way.

It is for this reason (Vot poetonu)

that I an here....

B. ((Interrupts)) But I au from there.

And I went.

I was

there, then

I cane, and I was located there.

You understand me; you say that

It is not this way (tak i ne byvayet),

but I went through (perezhil) this, had ((this experience)).

A. For me, what you are saying is only conversation.

You can say as

much as you wish....

B. I understand you, I understand.

A. But

for me it is important and wholly necessary that you tell me

how this was.

You went to Moscow, and you say that you lived at home a month and

did not report anywherc to anyone....

B. ((With sarcasm)) You asked me what I did ((during)) the first days,

the first days.

A. You do not rememberi

B. I told you, well, where - at home; I spent ((the time)) at home.

..*..

A. Well, to whon ((did)) you - as soon as you had arrived from Sovetsk,

where did you go, to whom did you report:

B. I absolutely did not report to anyone.

coho create abhushar

B. We will stop on this ((point))....

How much time did you spend on leave, if you arrived ((in Moscow))

at the end of December:

How much time were you on leave, approxinately, until what time:

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B. I here... just..: it is hard to say.

Whether my leave was finished, or mayhe it vas interrupted....

On leave in Hoscow....:

The business arose that I would be taken to work in the MGB.

Through KOBULOV, Bogdan... Zakharovich, and I la turn announced in

the Ministry of the Navy, in Personnel, to Colonel KALOSHIN, Chief

of Personnel of Navy GRU, that I was processing (( an processing" -

oformlyayus')) and I would be (("will be" - budu)) processed (XG)

into the MGB: "I an announcing this to you."

A. Alright (khorosno) .

Let us begin from here, since -- I make my own conclusion -- you were

not of

a mind (ne v sostoyanii) or did not wish or ar. not wish to

explain truly and correctly how you came to Moscow, to whom you

reported, etc.

Because there is no way to worn out of this (ni kak eto ni v kakiye

vorota), there is no way to get around it ((same expression)); do

not think, you, that you are the only person who has come here.

Many Soviet defectors come, many officers, and the rules which a

person - a Soviet officer - must observe on leave are written in

his officer's identification (ofitserskaya: knizhka):

Rule (("point" - punkt)) l, 2, 3, 4, 5.

I even can imagine ((that it is)) not compulsory - and no one

insists - that one would come to Moscow and right away on the

second day must run ((to report)).

It happens (Byvayet) a person sits for three days, and....

B.

Yes.

But (XG) ((A and B talk at the same time))

Or the military commissariat (voyenkomat), or the military comnissariat,

1f this is a simple officer......

A. I do not want to put (postavit') "someone" ("kto-libo"), who did

you put when....

B. I did not put anyone.

STORET

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When I had arrived, just after New Year's, after several days, I

went to (poyavilsya) the Ministry of the Navy.

Maybe after about ten days, seven, eight, and announced that I was

processing (("am

processing"' - ofornlyayus')); the problem of my

transfer from the system of the Navy to the system of the Ministry

for State Security was

resolved (("'is resolved" - reshayetsya)).

A. Good.

Let us leave this question....

He stili can return to

this ((later)).

.B. As you wish (pozhaluysta).

A. How, under what circumstances, and where did the conversation first

come up that you expressed the desire - or that someone proposed --

that you transfer to work in the organs....

B. 01 the MGB.

A. Of the MGB.

B. It was at KOBULOV's dacha ((country house)) .

Prior to this, father knew - I had spoken with father previously -

that I did not like this work.

More than that, when I left Baltiysk - I told you - the unit

commander, the conmander of our Navy Point, he of course did not

want to let me go on leave, and I turned (obratilsya) - at a

reception to Connander of the Fleet Arsenly Grigor'yevich GOLOVKO,

father's pal (priyatel'), and said.....

A. He will return to this.

And we will come back to GOLOVKO and to the Chief of your Intelligence

Point, and so forth....

B. No, as I....

A.

We have begun now to talk ((of)) how and under what circumstances -

time ti

..-.

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## Page 19

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so, not upset, calmly, simply -- they found yos, you found a person

sith whon to talk of coing to work in the MGB.

B. Thile a guest, with ny father and mother, at KOBULOV's -- it was on

the first or second of January at his dacha.

The conversation was hrought up: "And what are you doing."

I said what I was doing (('an doing" - delayu)), where I was working

(("am working" - rabotayu)).

A. One minute.

"The conversation was brought up: 'What are you doing: '"

I have one question here.

Why did you and your family happen to be at KODULO's dacha:

B. ((Smiling)) There was a phone call.

At this time, KOBULOV was working in the GUSIMZ, GUSIMZ system.

But maybe it was as cover ((that)) he was registered with (chislilsya)

GUSIMZ, as Deputy Chairman.

GUSIMZ -- that is, the Chief Directorate-of Soviet Property Abroad

(Glavnoye Upravleniye Sovetskim Imushchestvom Zagranitsey).

But he had been in Berlin, as chief of "BISIUTH". ((Soviet mining and

development concession, "Visnut"'; in Russian, Sovetskoye aktsionernoye

obshchestvo 'Vismut')) -- all uranium extraction. (("developuent" -

razrabotka; mining and processing)).

And he was in Moscow.

He knew father.

Hell, they, many knew.

He rang up father;

for what, why, I do not know; in any event, he

invited ((us)); or maybe father invited him to ((visit)) us at our

dacha, but he ((KOBULOV)) said: "I cannot; no, better, perhaps,

((1f you cone)) to me".

well, all in all, we went as guests, for a few hours (1G), to

KOBULOV's dacha.

A. ((In English)) Well.

I think you must say a little more:

what - had ((your)) father

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and KOBULOY known

other long.

It does not nappeil.so

I cannot ring him up:

each

other long, or had you and kOBULO! known each

simply; if I, for example, do not know KOBULOV,

"Please come to ((visit)) ne!"

B. (: One minute; I will explain to you now.)

Father had orked, so to say, in such posts since 1933.

He knew the Minister

or Deputy ((Minister)) fron any Ministry.

KOBULOV also had worked

for nany years as a Deputy Minister and

also was anong the "higher-ups" all the time.

But they krow each other ((2G - A

and B speak at the same time.))

A. You understand that it is not important that your father had worked

in the Ministry of Ship-building or sone other Industry; specifically,

this -- I would say - had no relation of any kind to the NKVD, where

KOBULOV at one time was Deputy Minister.

Here there must be something linking their friendship, something

further on which it was built, either a simple acquaintance or as....

B. ((Interrupts)) I understand.

A. It could not have heppend just so, that he phoned and (1 vot)....

B. ((Interrupts)) They meet at receptions, they meet at conferences, they

know each other, then perhaps they run into each other on problems;

so to say; there were some kinds of common problems.

Let us assume, for very many years the MVD carried on construction;

the most secret and most complex ((construction work)) they carried

out with the bVD troops (silani voysk AVD': SPETSSTROY.

Perhaps on this ground; I do not know on what ground they are

acquainted, but they are acquainted,

and they have know each other

for a long time.

And not only ((that)); father knew many, many, just as those who-

were working "at the top (naverkhu)" knew him.

A. Let us begin from this.

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They knew many, etc. - this is another question.

I wish to establish here only what mutual relations there were between

your fanily and the kODULOVs and thy it happened....

B. ((Interrupts)) Before this....

A .

... that you happened to be at KOBULOV's dacha, at a party and at

dinner or who-knovs-what.

B. Before this ((period)), I do not remember that our families were

associated, so to say.

KOBULOV's family or our family - I do not remember such a question.

They knew each other: KOBULOV and father.

Well, they addressed

each other by first nare: ((father addressed

KOBULOV as)) Bogdan, ((and)) he addressed father - Ivan.

Such ((was their form of)) address.

But by families I do not remember; there was no such event before

this.

Maybe, maybe, before New Year's they saw each other somewhere: in

the Krenlin, at a meeting, somewhere; and maybe therefore Bogdan

KOBULOV telephoned to congratulate ((father on New Year's)).

It is customary, you see: ((for)) New Year's, sone congratulate on

the thirty-first, ((those who)) who are not visiting (kto ne v

gostyakh), tho are at home; some send telegrams, but this is to

((those in)) other cities; but some call even on the first, phone

around to their acquaintances.

Hell (Vot), perhaps KOBULOV phoned, because I remember that there was

a call, namely, from KOBULOV.

KOBULOY himself phoned and congratulated father: "((I congratulate))

you on the New Year, Ivan; well, what are you doing?"

"Nothing nuch; the family is ((just)) sitting here; naybe we can get

together and have a drink."

A. But are you saing exactly how it was, or are you imagining and

presenting....

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B.

NO.

... ((it)) as it nust have been (("must be" - dolchno byt')).

... I was not a witness ((as to)) how father talked with him on

the telephona; I an speaking ((of)) how it is in life, how it is and

how it was, judging by that meeting which took place (proshla).

A. In short, you were not present during this conversation....

B. ((Interrupts)) During father's telephone conversation, that (to chto)..

A.

... ((Mat which)) you are telling me about phone calls, etc. -- it

is only, so to speak, ((that which)) you offer or imagine....

B. ((Interrupts)) That Bogdan phoned....

A. (IG)

B. That KOBULOV phoned - exactly ((as it happened)).

He spoke with father - exactly.

But that he invited ((us)) - exactly, since we went.

A. How many times before this meeting, before this meeting, did your

family and KOBULOV's famiiy meet as families.

B. I am telling you that I do not know of one instance (ni odnogo fakta)

((in which)) they met (vstrechat'sya) as families, visited

(navashchat'sya) each other at their apartments (po kvartire) or

dachas.

Despite the fact that mother aiso knew KOBULOV's wife, exchanged

greetings with her - "Good day (Zdravstvuyte)

She saw ((her)) at a parade or reception or in a shop of the Council

of Ministers or another place.

A. But did you yourself see personally that they exchanged greetings,

TT.N

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## Page 23

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or are you again imagining and offering ((that which you have

1Jagined) ).

B.

I myself have exchanged greetings ((with her)), I know her — KOBULOV's

wife - by face.

Then, you see, the fact is that my acquaintance, VAKHRUSHEV, was

married to KOCULOV's daughter, and ((Pauses))....

A. lie will return to VAKHRUSHEV, also.

Today, I want only one thing - ((that it be made)) clear and

understood what kind of mutual relations there were at that time

((between)) KOBULOV's family and your family and ((between)) you

personally and Bogdan KOPULOY

=*-"

-

B. At that time I personally had none ((no mutual relationship)) with

Bogdan.

((XG; A and B speak at the sane time))

A. Personally met before this meeting?

B. There was no one time, either at his partment or at his dacha.

I could have seen (("could see" - mog viden')) him at a parade,

((or)) sonewhere else (1G) .

A. But you never talked ((with hin)):

В. Ло, по, по.

A. You did not calk ((with him)):

B. No.

A. Now let us go to the second stage of our talk.

How did the conversation come about that - there was a conversation

about work in the MGB; ((was it)) at this party at Bogdan's.

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B.

Nell, there was a real dinner (deystvitel'nyy obed).

Who was present: KOZULOV himself, his wife, daughter, and the

daughter's husbad, Vasiliy VA'ARUSHEV •

Also

there with them - I have in mind Vasilly and the daughter -

((was)) a son, six or seven years old.

And there was

also ...•

A. Which VAHRUSIEV, the elder or the younger (("the lather or the son" -

otets ili syn)):

B. The younger (('the son" - syn)).

VAKRUSTEV elder died 1ong

ago.

A. Unhunh ((affirmation of understanding)).

+. 0 ..

B. And Bogdan KOBULOV's brother, Amayal KOBULOV, vas there.

Lieutenant General Amaya'‹ Zakharovich KOBULOV.

There was no one else.

A. But, on your part:

On your family's side:

B. I, mother, father.

A. The three ((of you)):

B.

Yes.

A .

Please continue.

B.

fell, how did the conversation come up?

Hell, it was afte: dinner.

He were sitting, laughing, Joking..

Well, let us suppose then that nother was talking (f'is talking" -

razgovarivayet)) with the wife, I was talking with Vasilly or with

them.

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## Page 25

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Well, you do soncthing.

I vas - I do not ronember - I had come in cither civilian clothes

or uniform; I do not even remember.

The conversation about me simply arose (<ashel): What was I doing.

Where

was I

working:

Perhaps Vasilly raised the question, because Vasiliy had studied at

the same institute as I, only he -- VAKIRUSIIEV -- had graduated two

years earlier.

I said that I was working in the GRU system of the Ministry of the

Navy.

In the beginning, my work (pervonachal'naya moya rabota) -- vork in

the Far East - satisfied me.

The work here - several months on the Baltic - absolutely did not

satisty (('does not satisfy")) me, and I have, I came here not so

nuch for the sake of leave, but took leave in order to think of

something, to find something, a place for work to which to go.

Hell, Bogdan Zakharovich was interested.

There father and I were sitting (( sit")); there sat Vasiliy and

Amayak; I do not remember whether or not mother was listening.

I said this and that, this and that (to, to, to, to).

"But what are you doing:'

I told what kind of vork, the preparation of so-called ANPS --

Agent-Surveillance Posts (Agenturno-Nablyudatel'nyye Posty) --

against the event of war in the future.

"Nell, that's all.

"by role, speaking generally, comes down to nothing, because I have

absolutely no experience in this work, and, as a matter of fact, I

am . in crude language - a second tail sewed ou a mare ((unnecessary)

"This work absolutely does not satisfy me, does not please me.

"To where: ((Where to go. ))

"I even do not know to where.

"To the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to ((the Ministry of)) Foreign

Trade, I absolutely do not know where. ((to go)).

"I absolutely do not know." ((Pauses))

-. .

A. • Please (: continue:)

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B. Nell, when Bogdan Zalharovich KOBULOV found out that I had had the

same education (obrazovanlye) as Vasilly VAISIRUSHEV, ((he said))

"Yell, where do you wish. Do you wish."

lell, I even do not know exactly how he said ((it)).

I cannot tell you word for word.

I cannot tell you word for word.

He suggested to me:

"How do you view work in the organs ((with

uncertainty)) of Security:"

((I replied,)) "Excuse me, i do not know this work, and ((Pauses) )

I have not worked ((there))."

-. :.

A. Do you remember exactly how and

what he said or not?

B. No, I do not remember word for word; no, no, до.

The conversation came up; he said to me: "How do you view work here:"

I sald to him that "I do not know; if it is interesting work, then

((I will accept 1t)) with pleasure."

A. He said the word, "here", or....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, In the Ministry for State Security, ia the

linistry for State Security.

A. I do not wish to "hook" you (byt 'zakoryuchkoy), but....

B. ((Interrupts)) The Ministry for State Security was what was meant

(imelos' vvidu).

A: How did he say it: In the organs of State Security, or how.

B. This I, I absolutely do not ramember this.

Whether he said in the Hinistry for State Security (Gosbezopasnostl)

or in the organs of State Security, or he simply said in State

Security - I do not remember this.

Perhaps he said in Counterintelligence (Kontrrazvedka):

SEAIFT

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## Page 27

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B. No.

There was no talk of intelligence or counterintelligence, absolutely

none (absolyutno ne bylo), and I - until the beginning, until I

began vorl: in March - I did not even know where I would (('will"

budu) work.

I did not know.

A. I, of course, would dot have wanted to remind you that, for example,

earlier you

said, for exanple, that when they questioned you in 1364

you explained

about KODULOV a couple or three tines

before this, etc.;

at two points (("'in two places" - v rivukh mestakh)) you emphasized

straight out that KOBULOV had said to you: "And how about work in

counterintelligence, in the organs of counterintelligence."

B. I do not remember the word, "counterintelligence"; I do not remember

the vord, "counterintelligence".

He could have said only one ((thing;): work on foreigners, or

against foreigners, or on foreigners.

He could have said that.

But the word, "counterintelligence", I do not remember.

But, you understand, working in counterintelligence, I of course

could have said this.

A. You must understand that this is a very inportant moment.

i.

B. I absolutely do not understand this.

It means I an so stupid that I consider this absolutely not the

important moment you say it to be (kak bylo skazano).

• It is absolutely not important ((whether)) it was said "in the

Ministry of State Security (v Ministerstve Gosbezopasnost1)",

because ((B's family nane)) wished to work, or "you will work in

the organs o! State Security (v organakh gosbezopasnosti)," or "you

will work in State Security (v gosbezopasnosti)".

It is, you know, one ((and the same)) Ministry.

A. The point is not in how it was said ((to you)), but in how you have

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## Page 28

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told (stazali) ((about it))....

B. Dut I....

... Untii loday…...

B. I do not remenber how it was.

It was better for me, then, to say straight out: I sinply vas

working in the organs, I vas working in the organs, I tas working

in the organs (rabotal v organakh).

A. As far as I know, you at one tine enphasized that ((it was)) "ilow

about work in counterintelligence."

B. Understand me = I did not know there I would (("will" - budu)

works, in intelligence or in counterintelligerce.

I did not know - this I remember exactly.

I did not know.

A. Now you say that Bogdan sald to you or asked you, "How about vork...."

B. ((Interrupts)) Yhat do I think (Chto ya dunayu)....

A.

... In State Security, or what do you think...."

B. Well, "in the organs of State Security", "in the Ministry for State

Security", "in the MGB" or how((ever)) it was said.

A. Alright (khorosho) •

Continue.

that else (("'further" - dal'she)) :

B. Nell, I understood him, that he has broad connections at his disposal

and that he will help me in this problen.

I told him that I was on (("am on" - nakhozhus')) leave.

Then ((it would be)) necessary for him either to sonehow ((one word

SECRET

: Aarpiet

....isa.

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## Page 29

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eraserin

omitted in conversation; probably neant "contact')) me, in order to --

I, well, I do not know - in order to put me in sone kind of official

position.

He said: "Do not worry about this.

They will do it; this will be the worl of Personnel ((Department)),

and they will. put your linistry in the know."

I asked: "But will you

set it for me or not. "

I do not remember what he answered, but to my mind he said,

"It is not your affair; they will handle this without you."

For all that, I soon, soon - well, maybe after several days - in

the Ministry of the Navy, I told about this (ob etom falte).

A. This conversation, then, took place on the first or second of

January 1953, with KOBULOV at his dacha.

B. ((Without certainty)) Yes.

A. What more (Chto dal'she bylo):

The party ended, KOBULOV left or you left then.

What more did you do during the month of January:

- *-

E. I do not remember whea it was, but there was a phone call, at the

apartment on Gor'kiy Street (ulitsa Gor'kogo); there was a phone

call, ((and)) they asked me ((to come)) to the telephone; they said

that they were talking (('are talking" - govoryat)) with me from the

Ministry for State Security.

A. Approximately when was this:

B. In January.

A. In January.

B. In January.

A. How, approximately, was ((this)) said toyou!

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## Page 30

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B. I as told that they were talking with me from the llinistry for

State Sccurity, that I

should come to the Pass Bureau (Eyuro

Propuskov) on Kuznetsily Most.

There I would receive a nass and go to the building where -- the

roon ((number)) was indicated on the pass - where they would

(('will" - budut)) tall with ne.

A. When was this:

B. In Jaruary.

A.. In January:

B. In January.

A. Then did you go there:

B. They told me the date, and....

Let us suppose that the phone call was today. -- I do not remember -

today I went, or on the following ((day)) -- when ((ever)) they told

me - I went to Kuznetskiy Most.

I received a pass, appeared at Building (Dom) 12, Building 12,

((there is)) an entrance (pod"yezd) there; now, ((wait)) one minute,

Building 12.

This is an entrance (khod) not across fron Building 2, but from

Malaya Lubyanka... an entrance (vihod)... around the corner.

Ca Malaya Lubyanka, there is a courtyard (dvorik) and here is the

entrance (pod"yezd), then, to FINO ((Finance Departnent))... ((Counts

on his fingers:)) one, two, three... the eighth or ninth entrance

(pod"yezd) •

The Party Committee ((''Partkom")) is located at this entrance

(pod"yezd), and at this sane entrance the Komsonol organization of

the Committee ((for State Security)) is located.

At this same entrance is a dietetic restaurant.

At the same entrance is (("site" - sidyat)) Personnel (Kadry).

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## Page 31

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1. Hell, lot us stop on this ((point)).

Let us speal frankly (pryano): if you know to what entrance (pod"yezd)

you cane, then please say ((so)); 1f you do not know exactly, please

say ((so))....

B. I sald the eighth or ninth entrance (pod"yezd) of Building (Don) 12.

A. You have explained to me alnost exactly what is located at the

eighth entrance.

Let us stop for a minute on the ninth, the ninth entrance.

There is this entrance, and what was located there.

B. I told (skazal) what ras located there.

A. What was located ((there)):

At the ninth entrance:

B. At this entrance, on the seccad floor (na "toron etazhe)

restaurant, a dietetic restaurant.

A. This is at what entrance:

B. This is the eighth or ninth entrance.

A. But more exactly:

B. I can draw for you ((a picture of)) what entrance I have in mind,

but I do not remember the numbering (numeratsiya).

A. Let us stop:

It is not necessary to draw ((a picture)) for me, because I see

all entrances (pod"yezdy) so very well.

B. Hell, alright (khorosho).

The fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth.

No, there is no ninth, then, ((but an)) eighth.

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## Page 32

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raghazithe

In mete

The eighth entrance.

A. That is located at the eighth entrance.

B. At the eighth entrance, the dietetic restaurant on the secord floor;

at the eighth entrance - ((there is)) the library.

A. So.

!

B. At the eighth entrance on the seventh floor; the seventh, it seens,

either the seventh or the eighth

there -- the Party Connittee

(Partkon) of the Committee ((for State Security)); one f100r up

(etazhom vyshe) - the Konsonol organization of the Committee ((for

State Security)), and here, at this same entrance, Personnel (kadry) :

the sixth or eighth or ninth - these floors; I do not remember.

A. Again.

As a forner KGB employee to a former KGB employee, I wish simply

to remind ((you)) that if you know exactly what was located at the

eighth entrance and you went to the eighth entrance, then please say so

B. But I have told you what was located ((there)) and where I went.

A. For your information, no one from the Personnel Department ever

was located at the eighth entrance.

B. I was a ROZHENKO's ((office)), chief of the Personnel Section

(otdeleniye Kadrov), if you want to know.

At ROZHENKO's (IG), surnane (faniliya) I know.

A. I do not want nor to pose the question that you never saw ROZHENKO..

Probably you even

saw him and talked ((with him)), but ((the question

concerns the fact)) that at that time ROZHENKO never sat at the

eighth entrance.

.B. It was precisely he who was sitting (Inenno on sidel) ((there)) as

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## Page 33

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not renteres

as chief, being chief of the section (oticleniye), in 1953.

He was chicl of the section, and he was sittins ((there)), and I

talked with him in 1953, before the beginning of ((my)) work there.

Or, one tine he saw me, ((and)) I talked with him.

((XG - A and B tall. at the same tine))

A. Here ((is)) Building 12.

You worked there - if one is to believe what you have told us

before this - quite a long time (dovol'no prodolzhitel' noye vremya).

B. In Building 2.

A. In Building 2.

It is nearby (Eto ryadon), you yourself know.

Well, let us begin in order - what, after 10 years ((there)),

must you cost likely know approxinately, what entrances there are

in Building 12 and even what directorates (upravleniye) or departments

(otdel) were there:

Imagine that you still - until the present time - are in the MGB

or KGB, and you sinply and in a friendly way are telling and

explaining what you know.

I not at all pose the question that you never talked with ROZHENKO,

that you never saw ((bin)), etc., but that you said that a restaurant

is there and library is there....

B. ((Interrupts)) All on the eighth (Vse na 8-om).

A. ...And the Party Comittee (Partkon) is there - all of this is

correct, but one ((thing)) that I want to say....

B. ((Interrupts)) . The Personnel Departnent.

A. ... The Personnel Department ras not situated on this eighth floor

(etach) at that time when you went to work in the organs of the GB,

and it never was (1 ne byl).

SECRET

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## Page 34

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B. I cannot tell you that the wole Personnel in its entirety vas

(('sat" - sidel)) at this entrance (pod"yezd) -- no, not in any

case - because Personnel wis scattered (ifairy byli razbrosani), but

those, those with whom I tallied, the people - to my thinking, I

was on the sixth

floor (etash).

(i To my thinking:), they talked with me on the si:th floor.

Un the sixth floor.

ROZENKO's employee, fron NOMIENKO's section (otdeleniy.), talked

with me.

I do not even remember his me.

So both (. ROZHENKO:) and

evcrything, everything ((is)) at this same

entrance (pod"yezd).

A. You see, the question stands before ns -- either we will continue

the conversation and - as they say -- put your case in order, as

you pronised from the very leginning, or we will move on to a

completely different subject.

B. Please.

A. I an here only in order to help you and to have a correct presenta

tion and to give my friends mo have worked with you here some

information.

Because they cannot believe what you say.

I even nore cannot; even more, I cannot.

B. Unfortunately.

A. Well, alright, if you were there for 10 years, let us stop here:

what was at the ninth entrance (pod"yezd) :

B. I have told you what was at the ninth entrance.

I do not know more ((of)) what was there.

A. You explained the eigäth to me.

.. 1

**:

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## Page 35

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B. Well, the eighth entrance, well, I have in mind this last entrance

(konechnyy pod"yerd); generally speaking, there was no ninth in

Building 12.

Because, you see, from this, the front, side of Buiiding 2, Building

2, so, Building 2, opposite Building 12, from this side, then, the

last entrance (pod"yezd)

((is)) the fourth, the fourth, were the

Second Departnent (otdel) of the OrU was located (('sat" - sidel));

the Sixth Spocial Department (Spetsotdel); the Sixth, well, now this

Is the OTU, the Sisth, the Sixth Special Department, part (chast'!

of the Second Special Department, not all.

Now, you go around the corner, around the corner, no, Malaya

Lubyanka Street (ulitsa), here it is -- Malaya Lubyanka, around

the corner there is not one entrance (pod"yezd), but a small doorway

to the courtyard (a khodiks vo-dvor), a grille (reshetka), an iron

grille; you enter the courtyard, here ((is)) the fifth ((entrance)) --

I never ((''not once" - ni razu)) entered the fifth; the sixth

entrance - I ront in the sixth, it ((is)) FINO, there, concerning

money and travel documents; the seventh entrance -- whether I was

there or not I do not even remember; the eighth entrance - this

here is the last.

Well, then, here ((are)) the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth - the

last - ((that is)) all.

There are no more.

This is in one snall courtyard (dvoril:).

That ((is)) all of the entrances of Builging 12.

A. Hell, where is the ninth:*

B. There is no ninth.

I simply said (('say" - govoryu)) the eighth or the ninth.

This entrance is the eighth.

Because here from this side the fourth ((is the)) last, opposite

Building 2, but here -- around the corner -- there is the entrance

to the courtyard and these entrances: fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth.

((That is)) all..

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## Page 36

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A.

"e will return....

B. ((Interrupts)) We will return....

((XG - A and B speal: at the same time.))

... ((salt)) One minute; we will return to these entrances.

I cannot in any way imagine that a person who has worked for 10 years

in counterintelligence can say, could try to state to a person

sorked at the ninth entrance that there is no ninth entrance.

I cannot in any way understand this.

B. I do not trow, I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

I am telling (Ya bovoryu) ((you)) wat I know....

A. Listen, a person who has worked so many years probably knows how

many entrances ((there are)) in Building 2 and in Building 12.

B. I say that ((there)) is not.

There cannot be a ninth entrance there, because further on behind

this building is (( goes" - idetI) the Moscow Oblast and Moscow City

Directorate (Upravleniye Moskovskoy Oblasti i Goroda Moskvy) ((of

State Security)).

((That is)) all, and there is nothing more.

• .

A. Correct, but where is the ninth entrance.

B. I do not know where the ninth ((is)).

There is no ninth.

I do not know the ninth entrance, because, right away, you see,

this small courtyard, so, the iron grille, the end, this little

courtyard ends here, here a part - the restaurant comes out here

onto Lubyanka and just (srazu zhe) after the restaurant, it comes

up nearby, here it is as Building 12, a continuation of Building 12,

the Directorate of the City of Moscow and of Moscow Oblast.

((That 1s)) all, ((that is)) all.

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## Page 37

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A. I agree, l agree.

B. ((That is)) all.

But ((there is)) the eatrance from Lubyanka, of course.

A. Alright (khorosho).

Let us suppose for a minute that you have arrived in the Personnel

Departnent (Otdel Kadrov); whom did you first meet there:

Let us begin a little further back (nennozhko nazad), with the

Pass Bureau (Byuro Propuskov): you have arrived in the Pass Bureau;

((In English)) what next:

B. There is (Vot) a little window (oloshechko) .

I gave ((them my)) officer's identification (('officer's booklet" --

ofitserskaya knizhka)) .

I said that there is a pass (propusk) ior me.

They said, "Vait."

But, as usual, they take your document, close the little window, and

you wait.

The little vindow opens, the officer's identification is returned

with the pass, the pass.

In the pass it is indicated, then, Building 12, the entrance, such-

and-such a room.

A. But do you now remember. which entrance and which room this ((was))?

в. No, по, ко.

A. Do you still insist (Vy use nastaivayete) that this place was at the

eighth entrance (pod"yezd):

B. At the eighth; yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

I went (khodil) to this entrance, only to this entrance.

And when I talked with ROZENKO and with this person - to my

thinking, I talked with him two times.

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## Page 38

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A. Who ((was)) this person.

B. I do not know ((his)) surnane.

In my opinion, ((he was)) a case officer or senior case officer.

-i.-

A. You went there.

To whom was ((your)) pass made out (byl vypisan):

TO ROZIENKO.

B.

No, no.

The pass was

nade out, roon such-and-such six hundred... there, to

my thinking, six hundred... to my thinking, the sixth floor, but I

do not remember exactly.

Whether there was shown (ukazano) a name (faniliya) - ((it)) must

be show, but I do not remember - I do not remember, I do not

remember, I do not remember.

I cane to this - I remember, then, that when I came to this room,

I went up; I went in the eighth entranca, vent up... wait, where cid

I remove ((my coat)):'

I took off ((my coat)) here, downstairs (vnizu); correct.

Below (Vnizu), at the eighth ((entrance)), I renoved ((my coat)),

went up, knocked at ((the door to)) this room, and there sat several

people: three or four, all in civilian clothes.

They said, "Wait."

Alright (khorosho), I wait.

A. Let us begin from when you cane in the entrance.

You said that you removed ((your coat)).

Where did you remove ((your coat)):

B. Here, downstairs (Zdes' zhe vnizu), at the eighth ((entrance)).

A. What - ((is)) there enough space ((''place" - nesta)) for the

removal of outerwear (('undressing" - razdevaniye)):

B. You see, it is this way (Videte-ll v chem

delo): there they remove

- SECRET

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((their coats)) dowstairs - on the first and second floors.

((There arc)) two places - tro cloak-rooms.

And when you go to eat at the dietetic restaurant (dietstolovaya),

you wear your coat to the second floor, where you remove ((it)).

If you go up ((above the second floor)) -- well, on business - then

you renove ((your coat)) here, below.

I removed ((iny coat)) belon, on the first floor, as I entered.

A. That ((ras)) there, cloa';-room attendants, nan and wonan (garderob-

shchik byl i garderobshchitsa).

B. Yes, there was a vonan, a cloal-oon attendant.

A. You went up.

Then (Dal'she)?

B. I went up to the floor indicated in the pass, found this room,

knocked, opened ((the door to)) the room; there, I, well - as far

as I remember, three or four officers were sitting there..

A. To thon did you speak (obratilis"):

B. I don't renember.

I said: "Here is the pass; my nant is ((B's surname)); I vas told

to come here."

But one of them said: "Tait; I will call you."

A. How do you think - I would not have wanted to remind ((you)) again

that a person who has worked so many years must know exactly - is

the name of the person who is visiting (("going" - idet)) and whom

show on the pass or not:

B. But I am explaining to you.

A. You could not....

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## Page 40

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B. ((Interrupts)) But I will explain to you.

I will tell you - thy.

Because I do not remember, I do not ronenber.

But usually it is shown

who orders the pass.

An ordinary case officer or a senior case officer cannot order a

pass; that is, he can wite out the pass, but soneone anong his

superiors (iz r'ukovodstva) signs ((it)).

Now, you have issued it, but still you must confirm if the deputy

chief of Department (otdel), the chief of Departnent, signs it by

hand (v pis mennon vide) - that is how it is (vot tak).

Now, orally (v ustion vide), the officer, now, here now....

A. We will come bacl: to this: the pass procedure (is poryalois propustion),

etc.; we will talk sore of this.

B. That is why I am here (Dals i ya).

You asks me; I explain to you.

A. I am talking to you about this case...

I cannot believe that a person has worked for so many years and

does not know exactly whether the name of the employee whom he was

visiting (k kotoroni on idet) was shown on the pass or not.

He goes up to the sixth floor and says:

"Who needs ((B's surname: ))

B. No, not to the sixth floor, but to room six hundred... such-and-such

and there some roon six hundred (XG›... I ((am)) ((B's surname)) and...:

I have appeared (yavilsya), I do not know to whon to speak (obratit'sya

who was sitting there, I do not know who, to whon must I turn

(obratit'sya).

To my thinking, to my thinking, to my thinking, a name was showa

there in the pass... I do not remember; let us suppose ((that the

name)) there ((was)) PUSTYSaKIN, PODUSHKIN.

I could have opened ((the door to)) the room and said: "My name is

((B's surname)); who here is Conrade PODUSHKIN or PUSTYSHKIN: •

He ((would have)) said: "I ((am he)); you wait for me; I will call

you. "

934

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## Page 41

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(And that would have been)) all.

A. An employee who had worked 10 years in the organs of the KGB -= ho

Isediately can say that a name is shown there or is not shown.

He will not hesitate, think up ((sonething)), and say: to ny thinking,

it was, or it was not; because the regulations (pravila)....

B. ((Interrupts; XG -- A and B speak at the same tine)) ... I know what

is shown and not shorn and I myself made out passes and I myself

signed ((thes)), as... deputy chief of departnent, and now one can

simply order ((passes)? by telephone, well, fron the chief rea

section (otdeleniye).

An ordinary enployee orders ((the pass)), but a chief of section

and higher confirms ((the order)), and it is loth with a nane and

without a nare.

A. You have arrived at the Pass Bureau (Byuro propuskov); you will

submit (otdayete) your document.

That did you say to then:

B. I said that there is a pass here for me; it must be a pass to

Building 12.

((That 1s)) all.

I gave my officer's identification (("officer's bocklet" - ofitser-

skaya knizhka)).

A. That else did he ask you in the Pass Office:

B. I don't remenber.

I do not remember what he asked.

I do not remember what (kak) I said, ((or)) what he asked.

A. You see, as they say, these are such small things on the face of it;

when a person has worked so many years and can not say exactly, but

how it is in

fact (kak na samon dele byvayet), of course, cones

under question (stavit pod vopros) .

-SECRET

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## Page 42

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I an telling exactly how it is.

But how, what I said, what was said, this, of course - if this is

the tasis for the decision of the question about re, tien excuse it...

A. This is not the basis for a decision, but....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, so you base ((a decision)) on such things as

this, you understand me....

A.

...

But one of the hooks (zatsepka) which....

B. Precisely so, a hook....

A.

... Brings us to a stop and again forces us to speas....

B.

... You yourself can wholly ((understand)) that a person cannot

renember what (kak) he said while talking at the little window

(obrashchayas' v okoshko) of the Pass Bureau ((and)) what he was

asked.

((XG - A and B speak at the same time))

A.

•.. Anything, however small, is essential (sushchestvennaya).

B.

We, intelligence officers and counterintelligence officers, we dally

pass by thousands of small points (melochi) which we do not notice.

I, or I notice, on which our menory fixes, it leaves no traces (ne

ostavlyayet sled).

Me remember what it was.

If ve will see ((it again)) - ((we say)) "yes, I saw this", if I

had noticed this, but it does not leave a deep inpression (("trace" -

sled)).

A. He will come back ((to this)) .

You are. in six hundred... the room, whatever ((number)).

That nore (dal'she) took place:

SECRET

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B. Only that which I remember; only that which I renenher, and then

you judge, please,

as you wish.

A. Please.

B. I renenber, then, he talked with ne - this, this Personnel man

(kadrovi:), whether a case

officer or a senior case officer; what

kind of questions he posed, I absolutely do not remember, and even....

There was a talk, doubtless about where I had served, vell... about

nyself, who are you, what, where did you graduate, what institute,

mat kind of education, language, where have you worked since

graduation fron the institute, there and there, ((your)) Inst place,

there and there - I told everything.

Questions concerning the biography.

-•

A. So.

You had a conversation, etc.; what then:

B. And he gave ne, then, he said to me, yes, he gave me several pages

((Not with certainty)), then there is one, such a sheet ((paze)),

one word on it: autobiography; it says, for the autobiography, in

two copies, and he gave me a questionnaire (anketa), also to

copies, there were some four or six pages, the deuce knows how

many .

It ((was)) necessary to fill out the questionnaires, all of this,

and submit ((it)) to them.

To my thinking, yes, I filled ((then)) out at home, yes, at home I

filled ((then)) out.

The questionnaire, the autobiography, and I attached small photos of

myself.

A. They gave you two copies of the questionnaire....

B. Of the questionnaire and two of the autoblorraphy.

One and the other in two copies.

SECRET

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A. What was on this page which

ras intended for the autobiography:

B. Only one vord: "Autobiography".

A. What is

outstanding about the questionnaire:

B. The questionnaire (anieta) ((is)) a routine questionnaire (voprosnik).

Viell, the first question, well, surnane, fiven nane, patrinynic,

place of birth, were born, vell... routine...

but... the expanded

questionnaire (rasshirennaya anketa), that is, I have in nind...

you understand, I filled out the questionnaires, and later, when

vorking I filled out a questionnaire again; 1t was au abbreviated

(solsrashchennaya) questionnaire, not so large -- (.six. ) pages, less.

A questionnaire.

A. That size was this:

How many pages were there:

B. Four or sis pages.

^. Four or sir pages.

What was this questionnaire called:

....

B. Questionnaire (anketa).

( (That is)) all, nothing nore.

A. After the talk, alter the conversation in the Personnel Department,

except for the autobiography and questionnaire, what else did they

ask you to do or to submit (predstavit'), or what further step had

to be taken?

B. I, then... when I had filled out the questionnaire and the autobio-

graphy....

A. There did you fill out the questionnaire and the blography:

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## Page 45

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B. At home, it seems, at home.

At hone.

A.

Can you say nore exactly.

B.

No, I cannot say more exactly.

A. You cannot say more exactly where you filled out the questionnaire.

B. I received the questionnaire there, to my thinking, I filled it out

at hore; yes, at home.

And they gave me on the following day, they gave me a pass,

I went

up and turned ((the questionnaire, etc.)) in (otdel).

Or, no, I did not drop in ((at the room itself)), but this ((person))

gave me a telephone ((number)), I phoned, he came down and took my

autobiography and questionnaire... it means, I called on the telephone,

this employee cane down and took ((the questionnaire, etc.)). ((Pauses):

Yes, I filled out the autobiography and questionnaire at home, I

filled ((them)) out at home, because I did not have photos with me

and I submitted the photo at the same time on the following, on

the following, approximately, day, I phoned... went to, went to

the eighth entrance, waited, this employee came down, I gave him

((the questionnaire, etc.)).

He said:

"Well, alright, we will phone you."

A. Then, you submitted (predstavili) an autobiography....

B. Two copies....

A. Two copies....

B. Two copies of the questionnaire....

A. Two copies

of the questionnaire....

B. Photos.

- SECRET

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## Page 46

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A.

What kind of photos:

B. Small photos, I did not have any others.

They wanted to receive 9 x 12, a large and snall ((ones)), as usual,

you know, it ((was)) 4 x 9 or 4 x 6 or

3 x 4; to my thinking, ((it

was)) 3 cm. by 4.

And they asked me for one 3 x 12; I said that I have none, this is

large.

A. But then later you subuitted a 9

x 12 to them.

В. По, по, до.

Later I submitted ((one)), when I aiready was working, it was in

approxinately 1955, 1956, that they asked me.

I submitted a 9 x 12 about two times.

A. Then (Dal'she):

You filled out the questionnaire, submitted ((it)), a person came

down, took these questionnaires, what then:

B. There was nothing more.

Further I was told that there will be a phone call for me, they will

phone me again, I will go.

A. When was this phone call:

This all was sometime in January:

B. It was in January, yes.

A. In January?

B. In January, yes.

A. When did the phone call come (("follor" - posledoval)):

B. I do not remember.

I do not remember.

510780

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## Page 47

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Again I talked with this ((person)) briefly; I was with this -

employce about 30 minutes, then I vas with ROZHENKO for the third

tine.

The third time with ROZIENKO.

With this, everything was completed, and I received a phone call,

the last phone call I received from them... in March, after STALIN

was buried.

After STALIN's burial they asked me to come, not to Building 12,

but to Building 2.

The pass was ordered for the

fourth entrance straight out, for the

principle, central entrance.

A. But when, then, from January to larch, what were you doing in Moscow:

B. Nothing.

I was, I was, this period of time, you understand, all January := I

still ((had)) leave, February and this

part of March before working,

this ((was)), so, at the disposal of Personnel; that is, until the

moment, until the apparance of the order that I was enrolled to

work in the MGB, I was, this period of time, period of time, but I

do not know, fron

the middle of January, from what time, I wag at

the disposal of Navy (VMF) Personnel, of the Ministry of the Navy,

but how it was here, no one explained to me.

I know only one ((thing)) - that Personnel of GRU, GRU of the

Ministry of the Navy, knew that it will be handled (provoditsya)

that... the problen of my enrollment in the MGB is resolved; they

knew that this question is decided and therefore put me at the

disposal of Porsonnel; that is, this so useless (boltayushcheyesya)

position which

is before the noment of assignment (naznacheniye).

It can be two and three months or

a month or a half-month or. four

months..

A. How did the Personnel Department of Navy GRU find out that you were

processing (('are processing" - oformlyayetes')) for work in the MGB:

B. KALOSHIN, whom I told, first heard ((it)) from me.

SCAREF

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## Page 48

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When

was this.

B. In January.

I told ((hin)) in January.

Maybe on the l0th, maybe on the 8th; I do not remember when I was

there first.

I told them that I was processing... the question of my, of my

enrollment, of taking me to work in the Ministry for State Security

is decided.

Because that work to which you sent me last time in Sovetsk, at the

Fourth... at the MRP of the Fourth Naval Fleet, does

not suit

me

at

all, because this work leto rabota) (1G).

- $

A. And what did you do for KALOSHIN at that time, when you stated

thet....

B. I did not do anything.

I said that, in all probability, as far as I understood, they will

put you in the know officially somehow.

This they themselves already ((had done)).

And, really, no one had told me, and, really, they already had put -

I have in mind the MGB Personnel (kadry NGB) -- they officially had

put the GRU Personnel of the Ministry of the Navy in the know, but

they quickly asked about this, "give ((us)) the personal file

(lichnoye delo)", that no one had explained to ((or)) showed ((or))

told me, but GRU Personnel (kadry GRU), KALOSHIN, knew officially,

KALOSHIN already knew, not from me, but GRU Personnel knew officially

that the question about me is resolved in MGB Personnel (v kadrakh

MGB), and they put me officially at the disp((osal))..., I became,

then, not as an officer of the MRP of the Fourth Naval Fleet in

Baltiysk, in Sovetsk, but ((an officer)) at the disposal of

Personnel (y rasporyazheniyem kadrov), at the disposal of Personnel.

A. But you rementer that... I again return to the old problem that

obscurities arise, of course more, not from ((our)) understanding

each other, but you said earlier what you are saying now, it is

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## Page 49

104-10210-10033

true that earlier -- one or two times -- you said

that you

hao

filled out the questionnaire (anketa) at ROGIENKO's, etc., but

there ras a time (moment) when you said that they: told you in the

Personnel Department (otdel; of the MGB that "it ((is)) not necessary

to fill out any kind of questionnaire (anketa), we have requested

your personal file (lichnoye delo)."

B. And wholly understandably; it nay be that i ((did)) precisely ((that))

the second time, because - I am sitting and thinking, but why ((did))

I ((do so)) the second tine - perhaps they gave me a questionnaire

the second time....

I do not recember, do not r'emember.

A. Understand me; Counterintelligence (Kontrrazvedka) does not work

that way.

When a person has worked in Counterintelligence and tries "o explain

and state that white is black and black, white, of course it is

difficult for the pcople who have been talking with you -- including

me - to believe that you are telling how in fact it ras.

When a person once has sald that "it ((is)) not necessary to fill

out anything, we have requested your personal file"', and that is all

(1 konets); now, in order to find an answer, you are trying somehow

to explain: "Saybe it was so the first time, but perhaps, the

second iime."

I want to know the truth, in order that it be clear and definite --

that you went to ROZHENKO, that you filled out a questionnaire, what

you did, etc., or it was

that they requested your file from the GRU

and you did absolutely nothing there.

Because you told ((it)) one time thus, and then two times in another

way.

The truth must be somewhere, because: it cannot be this way.

B. I am telling you the truth as it is; I was ((there)), I talked in

Personnel two or three times, I filled out a questionnaire, I filled

out a questionnaire; when did I fill out the questionnaire:

God knows:

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## Page 50

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• ~

whether they gave it to me right away or gave it to me later, or

perhaps they gave it to me wen I already had gone to work, a

Personnel man (kadrovil) sitting in the Second Chief Directorate

(no Vtoroy Glarke) -- ((chief -=)) SAKHAROV, likolay Grigor'yevich

-

gave it to me - I do not remember, I do not resenher, I do not

remember.

Absolutely.

I know I filled out to autobiographies, two questionnaires, submitted

photos.

A. But why (("for what" - k chenu)) fill out two autobiographies and

two questionnaires:

B. Uh, two copies.

A. Why:

B. I do not know.

A. Here, of course, in this event....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, then, where; it is in the personal file

(lichnoye delo); look: here is a personal file in him, on him, on

him, but what is there; a personal file, but there is also an insert

(vlozheniye) in the personal file, the special check (spetsproverka)

file, which also is kept (khranit'sya) here in the personal file, but

it ((can be)) taken out.

It 15, there is such a folder (korochka), the special check file is

sewn into the folder.

Probably here (Navernoye syuda).

A. To you, of course, every mortal man knows that there is a special

check file in the personal file, because without a special check they

do not take you into the MGB, but it also is true that even when now

employees are taken

on (dazhe pri postuplenil vnov' prinimayemykh)

they do not fill out two copies of the questionnaire.

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## Page 51

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B.

...And later

I filled out two more copies.

A.. It may be that you could have filled out one copy later, one more

after a year, perhaps anotier alter five years, and so forth, but

the Personnel Defartment needs only one good copy and absolutely

nothing more is

needed.

B. Two coples.

I married, my wife, they gave two copies again for completion on

my wife (dlya zapolneniya zheny).

A. We will be talking about this when we cose to this marriage, and

ve will return to this questionnaire.

I want you to understand what I am saying.

The next question - of which I had not wanted to remind you

((concerns the fact)) that the questionnaire both for new employees

(vnov' prininayemyye) and for KGB employees (sotrudniki FGB) is not

given to ((be taken)) home.

The biography, yes; you can write as much as you wish, even ten..

The questionnaire 1s

not given - and not because of distrust of a

Communist or of an employee - but only because it may be lost.

This is the only reason.

B. It may be.

It all may be.

But I took ((it)) home, and not ((just)) one time - ((my)! wife.

also filled ((it)) out at home.

A. Then you had begun work, later, this also must not be, but the

possibility is not excluded, that ((then)) you took ((it home)) --

I do not object to this so much; but when you had come for the first

time only and that they would have given ((it)) to you ((to take))

bome - this

question is completely ruled out.

Here is what

I want to understand -- you have told me that you took

((it)) or you did not take ((it))!

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## Page 52

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B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

Maybe I took ((1t)) .

A.

It is necessary then to say: I do not remenber, and I do not know.

B. But I know that I filled out a questionnaire... and wrote an auto-

biography... to my thinking, I wrote this at home, because I had,

I could not give the photos.

1.. I want to remind ((you of)) one ((thing)): that if ve will talk in

this way we will go slowly, we will go very slowly.

B. I cannot help you - forgive ne, please, forgive me - I cannot

help you, because I answer thus as I know, what I know, but you

want.

A. ... I do not at all need anyone's help....

B. I understand.

You know your business.

A. I need only the truth.

The fact was and is that the questionnaire is not given ((to be

taken)) home.

You told me that you took it houe.

I can in no way understand this.

I simply want to bear only one ‹(thing)) from you - that you tell

me that "I filled ((it)) out" either here or not here; if "I took

((1t)) home" - ((then you)) took ((it)) home; but they do not give

((it to be taken)) home; then you wrote it sonewhere else:

B. In that or another event, I filled it out immediately, or, after I

wag accepted, I filled it out at home.

In that or another event.

Only at home; the first questionnaire which was completed by me for

the MGB ((wife filled out)) only at home.

SECRE

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## Page 53

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A. I do not vast to do it so that you, you understand, knowing exactly,

I think, not knowing where you filled ((it)) out, you insist now,

as far as they try to obtain from me, where vas this: - at home. -

and I say that ((it was)) at home.

If we will work this way, we will not find a common language very

soon.

I only want one ((thing)) -- that you answer just as it was.

If you do not know....

B. ((Interrupts)) I answer as I remember; the questionnaire was completed

at home.

Whether it was filled out immediately or later, I do not remember

this, but I filied it out at home.

... ..

A. ... It could not have been completed at home.

B. Hell, it ((matters)) Ilttle that it could not.

But I filled it out at home.

A. This answer will satisfy no one.

B. I cannot sit and lie to you, no, only for the sake of satisfying you.

A. I certainly do not want you to lie to me....

B. (XG)... I believe that you nant only the truth....

I am answering you that, yes, I completed the questionnaire, I do not

know wher, ((either)) immediately ((when)) they gave ((it to me)) or

later, but only at home, at home.

A. My only reply to this can be only one....

B. ((Interrupts)) And later I completed ((one)), also at hone, at home.

A. At home, in that year when you entered, you could not have filled

((it)) out.

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## Page 54

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That, aftervard ((you completed a questionnaire)), as you said, hen

you narrled, and so forth -- it goes without saying that this is

possible:

-...

B. It goes without saying.

It was later, when....

A. I even allow for (dopuskayu) an exception to the

regulations or

if the discussion is of such a case (esli rech idet) -- if a person

is working, then

sometimes such a

thing ((happens)), or lne possibility

((that)) it is given to employees whom they trust.

B. Understand; you were working ((there)); now you put the dots over

the "i"'s with such a funny question.

A. It is not a funny question.

B. It is a funny question.

Funny -

Fell, what; you know the regulation (polozhenlye) that an employee,

an operational worker (operativnyy rabotnik), let us say, must not

in any event take home a single document.

You know in real life they take ((them)):

They take ((them;).

I have finished work; I ((have)) two meets (yavka) in the evening; I

net the agent, but I have finished the last meet at 10 o'clock in

the evening, at 9 o'clock in the evening; I am ((too)) lazy to go

slich a distance to put in the report (polozhit' doneseniye); I go

home and ((keep the report)) in my pocket; right.

((XG - A and B speak at the sane time))

A. There must be some kind of foundations for this, true:

But you have not given them to me.

You say: "I really (tochno) completed ((it)) at home."

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## Page 55

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D. At home, at hone, at hone.

A. It does not happen so (('It is not so" - No byvayet tal:)).

Imagine - in no way ((docs it happen so)).

There must be some kind of foundations for your having filled it out

at home.

well, what kind of foundation.

Well, what kind of foundation can ((there)) be.

1. I do not know.

I want to understand, but I do not find ((any foundation)).

I would say to you even more....

B. Look here; if we continue further on this question I am afraid that

I myself will become confused; you will see ((this!) and say:

"Listen, ((B's surname)), what are you saying:

Now you told me one ((thing)); now you are telling me another, but

earlier, you told my colleagues -- a third."

You understand (vy poynite) that I will become confused.

• A. As soon as I came here today, I said that my task, together with

you....

B. To untangle....

A.

...To straighten out everything.

B. Right.

But, you see, you... me.

You say. "untangle", and at the sane tine you ask me such details

which I do not remember:

"So, tell ((me)), and how was this?" .

But I do not renember....

A. When I first asked you about the questionnaire and so on, you said,

"I de not remember", but then you said: "At home."

- SEGRET

---

## Page 56

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I saited a little and then I decided simply to say that it does not

happen so (ne byvayet tais) .

You could have answered me:

"Perhaps it hone, perhaps in the office,"

etc., but you are trying to stato that ((it vas)) definitely at

home.

Then I, knowing that this is not done at home, you must live me sone

kind of foundation ((for)) why, why this was so.

B. Why at home.

I can give the grounds -- because I even do not remember, mother,

this about relatives, and my nother, she was studying in the courses,

in the courses, in the period when she met father, in the courses,

but for the life of me; and then I do not remember what years she

was studying, where, what.

As concerns father, I know where he worked, there in Leningrad, the

street, the plant, such and such yea's, but I do not remember the

details about mother; therefore: I, I remember well that 1 filled

out the

questionnaire at home.

I asked mother, "But how ((shall I)) put ((about)) you here:"...

A. I agree with this completely.

More, I can tell you - if you do not know or, perhaps, do not wish

to say; there is no secret about this, the whole world knows about

It - for the person who fills out a questionnaire for the first

time for the KGB, it is rather difficult: there is quite a number

of questions about both nother and father, etc., ((the answers to))

which the son perhaps does not know at ajl....

B. And absolutely does not know.

And thererore I say....

A. This is done in the majority of ((such)) cases - the person sits.

reads the questionnaire, ((sees)) approximately what kind of questions

((there are)), and then collects the information from his father,

mother, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, or ((about)) who((ever))

else there was or was not, and then he

comes the next time and

WHET

• asia raises i

---

## Page 57

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finishes ((the questionnaire)), and so forth.

B.

And finishes ((it)), I understand this.

I filled ((it)) out at hone,

filled ((1t)) out at home.

A. What then...:

B. ((interrupts)) One minute; I do not renember, but I do not remenber

exactly whether this Personnel man (kadrovik) gave ne the questionnaire

to fill out.

((But) ) then what did I hand over to him.

I remember I vent over, rang him up, I gave hin some documents.

And at that time, you understand, I have recalled another detall,

when I already had begun work in March, on the first day I came

SHUENYAKOV talked with ne; SHUENYAKOV rang up GORBATENKO; GORBATENKO --

acting chief of the department (otdel) - took ne to his office, and

that day or the next the Personnel nan (kadrovik) who previously was

in the Second Chief Directorate (vo Vtorom Glavke) - the one, the.

Personnel man, who previously had been assigned (chislilsya) as an

officer of the Sccond Directorate (Vtoroye Upravleniye) - phoned me.

He called me ((to come)) to his office (('to hinself" - k sebe)),

here on the sixth floor in Building 2, the corridor, and gave me

the questionnaires and ((Without certainty)) the biographies to fill

out.

It may be that I am confused here; maybe I did not fill out anything

for Personnel there, but what I filled out -- what I am remembering --

is that which I received fron SAKHAROV.

Well, I cannot say.

I am afraid of tangling myself up, etc.

A. Of course, it is possible to believe what you have said - that it

happened the second time, etc, -- bit, you see, I do not want to

make any assumptions; you are a smart enough fellow and, having

thought for some time and with sone leading questions, I think ((you

are)) of a condition to give a more or less satisiactory answer.

---

## Page 58

104-10210-10033

в. По, по.

I would wish that you rould avoid such cases; then we will find a

connon language far more simply.

B.

Then it will be better if I say straight out that I do not remember

this, I do not remember.

Il I will say that I suppose that it must be so, ((then)) it must be

so, because I do not renember in detail ((the answer to)) this •

question.

A.

We are talking about the questionaire.

Of course, each KGB employee who has written it several times cannot,

of course, say that he doug not remember.

You understand that a person who has filled it out several times

cannot say that "I do not remember".

B. I do not remember how many times I filled it out.

((XG - A and B speak at the same time.))

A. ...I am speaking in general about the questionnaire and what the

questionnaire of an employee....

B. ...I am saying that I filled ((1t)) out several times over my period

of work (na protyazhenii raboty).

I filled ((it) > out several times.

A. One more question... a question of the questionnaire; you say, then,

that only "Questionnaire (Anketa)", and nothing more, is written on

the questionnaire; please....

B.

No....

Each question (IG).

A. That is the questionnaire itself called:

Here ((is)) a questionnaire; this word, "Questionnaire (Anketa)" ((1s))

-SECRET

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## Page 59

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there; that is not all; there is soncthing else.

B.

The questionaire.

Well, there at the top ((there)) is, at the top,

the word, some kind

of form, the deuce knows, form (forna)... 2 a, 21 or 2 b, but I do

not remember.

A. O.K. ((in Englisi))

I an not even thinking about trying to renember what kind of form,

although

I know this, etc.

No one is

asking you whether this

was form 27 or 26, 2b or 2d, or

whatever; no one pays attention to this.

B. It is (Eto idet) as if ruled (graflenaya), well, as if ruled, the

question....

A. Understand me.

A KGB employee who kas completed the questionnaire several times.

will know the name (nazvaniye) of this questionnaire.

B.

"Questionnaire (Anketa)

, and ((that is)) all.

A.

No.

I have no intention of telling you.

B. ((It is)) not necessary to tell.

A. I think the day will come ((when)) I simply will show you.

B. ((It is)) not necessary.

A. I will show ((you)).

B. I know that I filled ((lt)) out more than once (ne raz): "Questionnair

(Anketa)", ((and that is)) all.

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## Page 60

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A, It cortainly is not all (Vot imenno chto no vs:.

I want to understand: what is the nain point of this (& where is

tho doy; buried." - gde zhe

sobaka zaryta))

11, I do not know what it is (gde ona zaryta).

A, If you filled ((it)) out several tines, if you worised there ll years,

thon you will tell exactly that this questionnaire is called,

because this....

....

II, ((Interrupts)) You (XG) because of one form.

Tho form is ((number)) 21 or, let us assume, ((it is)) the fifteeuth,

and a number (kolichestvo) of questions depend upon this.

---.

A. We understand what we are talking about and of wich questionnaire

(anketa) we are speaking.

Do we understand each other:

1. It is the coaprehensive ((or "expanded" - rasshirennaya)), It 1s

the comprehensive questionnaire, and ((that is)) all.

1. Well ((in English)).

And therefore, of course, when you were talkiag with the other

people, I want to believe everything you are talking about, but

when you stop in the middle of a sentence, ((then)) it raises a

question with me of whether you do not want to tell me ((something)),

when the whole world already knows this questionnaire, from the first

question to the last, and how many pages are in it; but when I am

talking with a former employee, one who was the same as I and worked

((there)) ll years, and he cannot tell me its name (nazyaniye eye),

this must, of course, raise some kind of question with me.

B. I do not know what it raises with you.

((It is called)) "Questionnaire (Anketa)'.

( (That 1s)) all.

220E7

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## Page 61

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A. Inti la nssume that there vere two (questionnaires:), but not

emplate (polnyye), and - 1s

they uly - not ((wholly)) satistyinz,

mel ll has not cleared up our questlon of....

13,

Estine me, I cannot help you....

A: "we meation of what business you had (o tom, ka's Vy incli delo)

witle these questionnaires, when you started ((work)) or even

after

you had been working:

1S,

I Pilled out the questionnaire in two copies, I filled out the

Milesiraply, ((that ts)) I did not fill ((it)) out, but wrote the

1curapiay in two copies.

A, Astor you talked with ROZIENKO -- in Building 12, you said - how

much time passed before you lound yourself in Building 2 for the

Irat time:

B.

In March.

Vilion, approxinately; do you remember:

B, ((Long pause)) ( Ah: ) The middle of larch.

((8G - B speaks in 1ow, "unreadable" voice))

A, Mo will return to ((talk about)) the aiddle of larch.

I would like to talk with you -- inasnuch as I was at STALIN's

funoral and, if one may say so, touk an active part at that time -

I would like to know where you were, well, for example, several days

boloro STALIN's death.

And Aftor STALIN's death us announced and at the time of (vo vremya)

tho funeral:

1h18 ls such a monent which....

37300000 to pistent

B, Holl, at the time of (vo vrenya) the funeral I was in Moscow.

a inalia..

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## Page 62

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• . •

• •-

1. Well, let us begin lefore the berinning (pred nachalo:), when you

say

that your father ras a llinister and, of course, was in the

Kremlin many tines, etc., and procably was at conferences (soveshchani-

ye) of the Politbyure.

STALI''s death, as they say, ((was)) a very great rosent in the life

of the whole Russian or Soviet people.

They remenber all of this well, now it happened, etc.

Let us take a starting point before the death and at the time of

the death ((of STALIN)).

When did you first hear that STALTN ((was)) ill or that he ((was))

dead.

B. No.

((In an agitated voice)) It was announced that he ((was)) seriously

ill, that, it was announced even in the press and by radio that he

‹(was)) i1l....

A.

... Had you heard before this; for example, had you heard from

your father or irom someone in higher circles that he ((was)) 1ll

or sonething in this regard:

B. You understand how it ((was)) (Vy ponimayete v chen delo), literally

several hours, then they announced ((it)) inmediately.

It happened at night.

It happened at night with him, as far as I remember the details, I

heard ((of it)) fron father, well, then from father's circle

(okruzheniye) there and....

A. I an asking only that question; ve will not talk ((of)) then ((when)),

of course, there were many conversations afterward: of when he

becane ill, of wen his stroke (udar) seized him, and so forth.

This was

after everything already had becone known; I an speaking

now of before STALiN's illness; let us take ((for example)) the end

of February or the beginning of March.

that did you as a member of the family of a highly-placed person,

etc., wat did you hear of the death of STALIN from soneone - from

-SEAR

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## Page 63

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- 60 -

your father or nother or froy soneone else anong your acquaintances --

that, sonething ((was)) not wholly in

order (ne sovses y poryadie),

with STALIN, in this line:

B. Well, could we not have heard ((of this)) fros anyone.

It happened with his at night.

In the norning it already had been announced by radio that he had

a stroke (udar).

A. Then I must make the conclusion that, before it was announced by

radio or in the newspapers, you had not heard fron aryone of his

illness.

B. No.

No, but I heard of his illness of some kind (o yego kakoy bolezai),

•of this illness - no.

I had heard that be ((had been)) rather (kakoy-to) strange of late,

((that)) he did not receive anyone; I had heard this:

A. Alright.

Let us cone back to this: he was rather strange, he did not receive

anyone.

Approximately when did this happen:

-in

B. It last was ( (in)) 1952 and 1953.

A. Let us return again to one moment: the XIX Party Corgress was in

October 1952, the last during his lifetime and....

B. Yes, yes.

A.

...And the first after the war....

....

B. Since 1938, after a long inierval (tol'shoy pereryv).

A. And STALIN attended this Congress....

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## Page 64

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- 61 -

B.

He made a speech, not big, brief.

A.

...lle gave a small brief speeris, etc.

You yourself personally had heard sonething before this, that he

had some kind of strangeness, etc.

This is ny own (Eto u menya) ((interest)) -

I am not exanining you....

Le da dia ponder re

в. Но, до.

You see how it was, fron where I had heard.

Well, I had heard such things fron father, from father and from

father's group (obruzheniye otsa) -- HALESHEV, VINIKOV, KHRUNICTIEV,

OKOPOV - "Of late, 'The Boss (ihozyain)' is not receiving anyone;

he is a little strange, he has changed, he has changed extremely

in recent years"

Well, here was in mird. I kave in mind 1952, 1953, because in 1950 -

1951 I was not ((there)), I de not know, I was gone (ya byl v

ot'yezde), I arrived in 1952.

(1G) I have heard of strangeness (strannosti) of such a type, that

he was working (perenes rabotu) all night and in the morning, but

during the day, generally, they rarely see him, and he does not

permit ((anyone)) to approach him, ard it is rare that one sees him.

At that, fron my pal - Leonid PETROV, that is - I heard a little,

other details of ((STALIN's)) personal life, how he acts.

A.

But who is this PETROV?

B. His father, PETROV - Lieutenant Colonel PETROV - was Forking in

STALIN's guard (okhrana STALINA) .

A. In the guard around STALIN (V okhrane u STALINA):!

B. Yes.

And it was from him, from this Leonid I heard other details.

But this ((vas)), he, let us say (predpolozhim), he ((1.o., STALIN))

spent time in such a way.

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## Page 65

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A .

Where was Leonid hinself forking.

B.

Leoald hinself, then he vas a student, in general he is working six

months sonewere at one address (('at one postal box address" -

implying, at a factory which uses no publicly known address, but a

numbered post office box audress only)), then he works somewhere

else; he has

a lawyer's

education (obrazovaniye yurista) (2G).

A.

But, anyway, he did sonsthing ((did he not));

You know, in the Soviet Union ((it is)) difficult ((just)) to sit

( (and)) do nothing.

B. He graduated from Juridical Institute (junidicheskiy institut) when

he was about 30.

A. He was a permanent student.

B. Yes.

He graduated fron the Institute when he was about 30 years old.

He vorked for a short tine in various organizations.

( (He is)) a pal who absolutely does not like to works, does not want

to work:

A. Il he ((1s)) a lawyer (yurist) in what kind of organizaticn (vakakoy

organizatsii):

Do you remenber even one organization in which he was working:

B. No.

rby:

Because in the early years (osnovnyye gody) when he began work, I

graduated from the Institute in 1950, he graduated from the Institute

a little later (popozzhe), he is older than I, I was born in 1927, he,

in 1924.

He graduated a little later.

He began work, as a matier of fact, when

I began in the MGB.

...

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## Page 66

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((The guard enters; everyone talks of cold tea and ice.))

A. How long did his father work in the

guard (okhrana),

do you know.

. . .

B. Until his death.

le worked for many years.

He worked until his death.

A. There did they live, do you know:

B. He lived on Third keshchanskaya ((Street)).

A. On Third Weshchanskaya:

B. Yes.

The usual house, a communally-owned ((as compared with the Ministry-

owned houses; zhaktovsisly don)) house.

A. That number, do you not remember:

B.

I do not remember.

A. You do not remember the number:

B. I remember it - this house.

A. And what was the father's name, do you remember:

B. Sergey, Sergey, because his Leonid ((is); Leonid Sergeyevich;

Sergey PETROV.

A. The father ((is)) Sergey, and the son, Leonid:

B. Leonid Sergeich.

A. That, approximately, did Leonid tell you of STALIN's last days or

---

## Page 67

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be 64-506997

of the next to last ((days)).

3. But that he thore.... vant he eats (kushayet), what he cats (yest)

there, hut such questions.

He, you understand, was vorting there in the houschold (v khozyaystve)

or ((some)) where there -I do not know - in the guard, he saw how

and what... he told details of ((hor)) "The Boss (khozyain) spends

time in the hot-house (oranzhereya), that he is strange.

Let us say, there in the hot nouse at Blizhnyaya Dacha in the

Vorob'yevyye Gory, there were several lomon trees

Fruit appeared on these lenon trees ((and)) he ((STALIN)) counted

up how many.

Well, on one there ((wese)) perhaps four, on another, sis, I do not

know how many, and one lenon (('fruit" - plod)) fell.

A. It fell, yes.

Do not tell ((me)) about this, this is an old joke (aneldot) which

has been around (sushchestvuyte uzhe) for 20 years.

It is true, this happened, there was such athing, but this....

: B. ((Interrupts))... He eats, how he (1G) ALLILUYEVA's sister -- tbat

is, of the forner, ALLILUYEVA was STALIN's wife, but her oider

sister, of the wife, she was ((there)) as the housekeeper (ekononka)

for many years...

Nadezhda, Nadezhda, it seems, ((was)) her nane; he told about her.

A. But what did he say about ALLILUYEVA; what happened to STALIN's wife:

B.

But this was not from PETROV; there were in general runors about her;

I heard that she, that is ALLILUYEVA was killed by STALIN himself.

A. How many persons, let us say, in your father's or your family's

position, how many knew about this:

Were there many people, or in general did everyone know about this:

P31S.

В. N, по, по, до;

that is, it was passed fron person to person (&"fron

---

## Page 68

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- 63 -

ear to ear" -s ukho na ucho)) and (XG) he killed her out of (no.

pochve) jealousy.

A.

But what -- he liked to chase the women (za babskimi yubkami

gonyat'sya)... out of jealousy.

Or he did sonething else (Ili chem-to drusin zanimalsya).

B. No.

Well, for what there, out of jealousy (XG) .

A.

What does it mean: she was with someone, or he was with someone:

Supposedly, supposedly; there vas even a runor that VOROSHILOV

supposedly had made advances (priukhachival) ((to her)).

How true this is I do not know, but.

(The guard has brought cold tra))

A. Please ((Offers tea.)).

B. Thanks.

Well, he said that he ((STALIN)) often went at night (po nocham) to

the cenetery at Novo-Devichly Monastyr', to her grave, at night.

At night (Noch'yu), he sat there for several hours when it was warm

(• teploye vremya).

Apparently, he had great feeling for ALLILUYEVA in his soul, 1f -

In spite of the many years - this was after the war, and he

continued to go to the cemetery, to the grave, to ALLILUYEVA.

I have heard - you talk of women - I have heard that there were

Some women.

A. For example.

B. Marina SEMENOVA, then, who:

A ballerina; she also went, went directly, to him; then, then --

they talk, I do not know how nuch is true, about the singer, SPILLER,

eura

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## Page 69

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SHPILLER, I do not know how nuch is true.

A.

She is an

old wonan.

B. So, ((wait)) one minute, this was not in later years, ((but 10))

1916 - 1947, in these years.

Old woman, what lind of old woman; she was about 40 years old, no

more.

A. And you yourself visited the PETROVS' apartment:

B. I was,

I was not in the PETROVs' apartment, I vas at the house, I

know the entrance to it (('whore" - gde)), but I was uot in his,

in Loonid's, apartment.

A. Ihere ((1s)) this on Meshchanskaya ((Street)):

B. This ((1s)) the middle of Meshchanskaya ((Street)).

A tall gray

building, about six stories, it stands out, next to a

somowhat smaller building.

But this ((1s)) a comnunally-owned ((zhaktovskly - see above)), not

an institutionally-owned (vedomstvennyy), building.

A. But do you yourself know Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)) well?

B. No.

I do not know ((1t)) well, but have driven along it when dropping

off Loonid.

A. He will return to the old question.

Approximately how much time did it take, after ROZHENKO had talked

with you and said, then, "please, now you will come to work";

Who first made the suggestion that you go to counterintelligence;

how did this happon:

B. So, Iisten.

_ SECRET

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## Page 70

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I said that I ime with thin orployee - he was a case officer (oper)

or a ((sentor)) inny offleer (upolnonochennyy) - two times, and

the third time, with BoatiNko.

And I did not know mint, ior, where it will be; the last phone call

was in the ndole of Murill, como to ny office (('me")) in Building 2,

at the fourth ontrancs, and not to the Pass Bureau, but directly

at the fourth entence thore will be a pass for me.

A.

Further, vo atopped and lounn to talk of STALIN's attitudes

(otnoshonlyn) .

When did you clint lond that STALIN ((was)) dead; when did this

happen:

B. Officially, Cold ((war)) the nocond of Marci, the second, it seems,

of March, yor.

It was announeed offlointly that at night, today, it was announced

In such form, luntilt (newornyn noch' yu) it tools place, but in

general the moandur win such that, you know, there is a stroke, a

state of ahock, " lintn honorrhage occurred, well, there ahead of

the word, that

A. Woll, tila

do not Important.

A brain Homosrlane. "

B. And that he da uncondolous,

3.. it.

A. Unconsolour,

B. Unconsoloud,

He was undonadtote on the nocond and third ((of March)), and he died

at night. on the fourth,

A. Tero wore you at thie time:

B.. In Mosoow.

---

## Page 71

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...

uro in Moscow?

At your parents', or:

11. At homo with my parents, on Gor'kiy Street.

A, Mut mo first found out about this: your father, or you, or your

mother.

1710

was

the first, who heard ((about it)), what:

11.

Int I do not remember.

I do not renember how it was.

mo flist: this one ((was)) first, that one ((was)) first (vot etot

poivyy, "ot etot pervyy).

I remembor

that it was the first thing in the norning (bylo srazu

who utrons, to my thinking, of the second ((of March)) I found out

about this.

A, Can you toll me, approximately, what kind of conversation there was

it hono whon you learned that STALIN ((was)) dead:

What was your father's reaction.

11, l'ather vas terribly depressed; nother, of course, was upset.

l'athor ms terribly upset, depressed and shaisen by this.

A, lurthor, after they had put STALIN....

D. In the liall of Columns (Kolonayy Lal):

A, In the liall of Columns of the House of Unions; how many times did

you vialt the Hall of Columns of the House of Unions, walie his

Body was there?

D. ((long pruso; then, without certainty and in a low voice:)) I was

thore only one time.

•....

•..•

A. How did you get there:

ES2: 2610 3800c0-31

-EGRET

---

## Page 72

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ndcr-that.cixcunstances.did.you.nake.-the.uisit-(poset1l))

B. ((Long pause) I went with father, because there was no other way

to get through (inache tan bylo ne proyti).

((It vas)) awful, what had happened.

But they approached (pod"yechali) from what is now lary. ((Street)

(so storony seychas Marksa), this is the governnent entrance (vichod),

and the Ministers

passed through here.

I weat with

father straight here, but it ((vas)) closed here, they

did

not permit cars to pass; only a governent vehicle could to

there (pod"yeirhat').

I vent with hin here, he went up, I went, vell, there ((was)) a

roon where they could drink vater, smoke, sit, rest, there ((ras))

the hall, and I went through here, going with them, too! off ((coats))

here, I already had gone through, I joined the whole croud mich

was

going in from Pushkin ((Street)), but just outside the building I

joined f(the crowd)) and went through; ((Pause)) that Is what I did.

A. Do you not remember who stood in the Honor Guard at this time.

B. No, I do not remember.

I do not remenber.

A. How nuch time vas STALIN there, in this Hall of Columns of the

House of Unions:

What unusual ((thing)) happened in Moscow during these days?

B. Well, in Moscow there was... with the people... terrible... the

people tried to go through... very many people, the streets ((were))

jammed (perekryty), they crushed the crowd (massa) of people.

A. In what way did they crush ((them))i

B. Nell, a crowd (tolpa) gathers, let us suppose, in the by-streets

(pereulki); here a by-street is jammed with vehicles; they press

((those in)) the rear against ((those in)) the front; well, then,

---

## Page 73

104-10210-10033

he nounted Militia, in seneral, AshtarSen

A. What was the reaction of the losco: citizens (nos!vichi) to this

crushing - so many people were killed, etc.

B. No one announced ((anything)) alout this.

A. But all the same they know.

B. Jut there was the rumor that those bastards (solochi takiye) are

crushing the people, they cannot get through (ne mogut pustit').

As 1f, so to speak, they arc coing ((it)) especially, ((there vas)).

simply the fear that something can come up ((arise" - vozniknut )).

A. How many ((times)) did your father go to the House ((of Unions)):

+ .

B. He was there every day.

Every day.

He went several days; they went several times a day; they went in

the morning, during the day, in the evening, several times a day.

A. He stood in the Honor Guard.

B. Yes.

• A. Do you not remenber on what day:

B. No.

He stood several times.

To my thinking, he stood each day.

Recause they stood there only three to five minutes in all ((at one

time)).

, And he could stand several times a day.

A. But were you present at the funeral?

SEGE!

---

## Page 74

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A. That -- you did not want to, or how (íras it)).

B. ((Long pause)) A pass was not written for me.

Only because, usually, when I vas at zone, before ny departure for

the Far East, before ny departure for tue Far East, all holidays,

any holidays, ((observed)) in Red Square or at Tushino Airfield,

there vas always a pass for all the fanily, mother separately, and

for ne.

For father, it goes without saying, ((a pass vas prepared)) separately.

But in this case (( here" - zdes')) apparently I had been absent,

you

see, part of 1950, 1951, 1952, and when, at the beginning of 1953,

I was not registered (('au not registered" - ne chislyus')) in

Moscow, ((a pass)) was not prepared (ne vypisan) for ne, to that

place (tuda) it was not again necessary, a pass for Red Square,

well, as ((is)) usual, if one goes with his family (yesll poyti

s sen yani).

A. Then, you went?

B.

I did not reccive a pass.

A then you were not at the funeral:

В. No, по.

A. In what way were the funeral banquets, as they say in Russian,

organized at home after STALIN's death:

After the funeral?

That did they do in your home:

Was there some kind of special get-together (vecherinka)?

в. No, по.

Absolutely nothing.

Pinhood antanato

---

## Page 75

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rin, +74961371

soneone.

B. No, no, no; no one tas a guest at our place, and ((there vas)) no

funeral banquet; there was nothing at our home.

:

A. Nothing.

B. No.

A. Now, we will return to that rosent that you, then, ((when)) ROZHENKO

sent you to ((the Second Chief Directorate>).

D. No.

ROZHENKO did not send ((me)).

ROZHENKO only talked with me, but everything renained unclear for me.

Then what

"You will be put in the know; you will be at the disposal; you will

be put in the know.

"As soon as there will te an order (prikaz) on you, you -- they will

phoue you - will be inforned (Vam oh"yavyat)'.

And there was a phone call for me in the middle of larch — it was

just after STALIN's funeral - that I should conc. to the fourth

entrance of Building 2, where - not in the Pass Bureau, but

directly at the entrance - there will be a pass for me.

A. You went to the fourth entrance of Building 2;

what did you find there?

B. There there was for me, at the fourth entrance -- you go in, they

check the pass here; I said that there must be a pass for me here.

Now, one ninute - ((said)) the duty officer (valhter ofitser);

then the duty officers were officers, checking passes — later, they

sere replaced with sergeants-petty officeis (serzhanty-starshiny);

I went up; yes, ((he said)) there is (yest'), please go in

(pozhaluysta, prokhodite).

(1G) to the reception room, to KOBULOV, Bogdan Zakharovich, who

SEGRET

harassment

52,1

---

## Page 76

104-10210-10033 VD"((and)) the MGB, were conbined In one uvD - he was then

appointed First Deputy.

They too': hin fron Germany, fron GUSISZ ((Chief Directorate of

Soviet Property Abroad)), as First Deputy.

apons pits insines

A. You do not remember until mat time he was in Germany:

3. Until (( until the nonent of" - do momenta)) STALIN's death; he

returned ((Pause)), he returned to the Ministry for State Security

(Ministerstvo Gosbezopasnosti), to the MVD.

A. You are

sure, and you know ((this)) exactly:

B. Exactly, Cractly; ab lutely, because the new ilinistry: they

contined the MVD and the UGB; the hinister - DERIYA; the First

Deputy - Bogdan KOBULOV .

A. But I am saying, do you know exactly that he came from Germany at

this time:

B. No, he came as soon as it happened with STALIN.

A. But icfore this time, you had met hin in January; he, what — vent

back to Germany:

P. In January, when I saw hin - as far as I renember - he was for a

time, for a short time - either they called biu to Moscow or he had

cone for New Year's, a short period, but he had to go back to Germany.

To his "BISHUTH" (V Visnut svoy).

A. At the fourth entrance they gave you a pass, and you youself vent

to look ((for the office)). •

B. No, ((it was)) indicated there, the office ((vas)) indicated, room

such-and-such; this was the third floor, on the third floor.

•SORET

---

## Page 77

Kakaya eto komnata).

104-10210-10033

e third floor, ((it vas)) indicated.

I went there.

I too!: off ((ny coat)).

You go in, hore sits sone sort

of secretary (vrode secretar'), on

the left ((is)) the reception room -- several persons were sitting.

Then, still another office (yeshche odin kabinet) - this was not a

secretary, but KOBULOV's assistant (ponoshchnil:), SAVITSKIY.

They directed me to hin.

SAVITSKIY said: "Wait, take off ((your coat)), sit down."

I sat for an hour or an hour and a half, here in the reception roon.

SAVITSKIY again called ne and says:

"You know what: Go to six

hundred... six hundred... si: hundred iorty... seven, Room 647 of

Building 2.

"Bogdan Zakharovich ((is)) very busy; ((go)) directly to Comrade

SHUENY AKOV."

Who is this, who is this; he told ne absolutely nothing.

And I left this SAVITSKIY; I had spent the time sitting in the

reception room, and no one had received me, but according to ((my))

1dea ((of things)), KOBULOV, Bogdan, should have received me; I

went to the sixt floor, to Room 647, to SHUBNYAKOV - First Deputy

O1 FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich, Chief of the Second Chief Directorate -

SHUBNYAKOV .

I went to this Room 647.

The secretary, I said to the secretary that he ((SAVITSKIY)) had

sent ne to Comrade SHUBIYAKOV, ((that)) Conrade SAVITSKIY had sent

((ne)) from Comrade KOBULOV's reception room.

"One minute" ((be said)).

He went to him, reported; "Now, go in" ((he said)).

I vent in, to Comrade SHURNYAiOV.

SHUBNYAKOV is sitting alone.

And here I found out that I will be working - and that there already

.-:

is an order - and that I am assigned (chiglyus') in the Second

Chief Directorate and that I will be working in the First Departneat

(otdol), the First Section (otdeleniye).

He rang up Acting (( I.0,': ispolnyayushchly obyazannosti)) Chief of

-REF

---

## Page 78

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mo is this i!:to tai:oy) GORDATSIRO

B. At the noment of my arrival, he was Actin? Chief of the First

Department.

Soon after, at the end of March or in the beginning of April, he vas

assigned as Chief of the Departnent, of the First Department.

He ((SHURYAKOV)) L'ang up GORBITENKO, introduced ((me)), "llere is

your new employee, Conrade ((D's surnane)); the order on his

assignment io the First Department, First Section as a case officer

already has leen signed; ((that is)) all; 50".

I vent, talled with GORBATENiO.

GORDATUNKO rang Up KOLLOV, Chick of the Section, and on the following

day I sent to work.

A. Nell, that, practically, did SHURNYAKOV tell you:

Explain to ne.

About that did you talk with SHUBNYAKOV.

B. I arrived.

He said - again, I will not tell you word for vord; I do not

remenber word for word; I will give the sense of that conversation,

as it was.

But again, briefly, I told hin about myself, briefly, in several

Fords.

I told that I was brin there (tam-to), I graduated from the Institute

of International Relations and began work in the GRU line (Do linii

GRU), I bad worked in the Far Last and on the Baltic, everything.

"That language did you study."

English.

Well, briefly, about myself.

"Well, here, there is an order on you, on your assignent to the

First Departent, a counterintelligence Departnent, working against

American intelligence, against the American Embassy; you will be

working in the First Section, as a case officer".

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## Page 79

104-10210-10033

B. I did not know anything.

And I had a:solutely no understanding of that a case officer ((1s)),

of that a senior case officer ((is)).

A. Probably they explained to you.

B. ((Iney e:plained)) that it is an officer's position (dolzhnost ),

that it is a beginning (pervonachal'naya) ((position)), that we

have the junior (mladshly) case officer the... ((one)) minute...

was he called "junior" then.

Assistant case officer (Po:1. opera).

I do not remember: junior or assistant case officer.

It means - first, then case ofticer, senior case officer.

Veil, you understand, you have not been working with us, you are

only beginning, ve cannot give you "senior", but "junior" also is

not for you (Yam ne dayet), because you have graduated from the

Institute and you already have even sone kind of work experience,

sone kind of experience of work in the GRu.

Alright, (horosho), I do not know how nuch this paid (skol'to eto

zarplaty), that, nothing, absolutely nothing....

For -e, this aosolutely....

A. But were you interested:

What kind oi pay, what:

В. N, по, по, по.

I did not even ask.

A.

When they assigned (chislili) you there, with what rank were you

assigned!

B. As a lieutenant.

It vas. as a lieutenant.

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## Page 80

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iB. Ileutenant.

A.

And that did they do for you; ((did they nuke)) some kind of tag

((or "acidition" - pripisia)) to the rank, lieutenant, or not:

B.

Absolutely none.

Absolutely.

I understand of what you are asking.

Absolutely..

A. Was it said from what date you rould be assigned (zachislyayetes'):

B. It was said that the order ((had hecn)) signed, the ordes on me ((had

been)) signod; he rang up GORBATENSO; GORBATENKOsa l'd the order

regarding (v otnoshenti) ((B's surname)) ((has been)) signed; let

him take ((his)) place, define ((his duties)), begin work.

A. Do you not remember exactly on what date the order ((nas)) 'signed:

B. But I do not remember - the twelfth, the fifteenth, well, the

middle of March.

f.. The order was ((effective)) from that day on which you began work or

earlier:

B. No, as far as I understood, I think that on this very day when they

phoned me, probably the order had been signed in the norning.

Whether on the twelfth or the fifteenth, but the order already had

been signed, ((and)) therefore they called na.

A. You were rorking there.

That kind

of pay did you receive?

B. It means, so: The basic pay (oklad) vas 1,700 ((rubles)) plus

500

SECRET

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## Page 81

104-10210-10033

che) J%; plus, yes, 10%, 10% -- this ((was for)) language, well and

this, after about two or three months, 10% for secrecy (sekretnost ),

and after two-three months, ((for)) language, because it was

necessary for me to pass an examination, here, at the courses (na

kursakh) on Kisel nyy (v Kisel'non) ((Bol'shoy kisel'nyy pereulo!. --

where the lligher School of the KGB is located)); I passed the

examination, and ((received)) another 10%; in all, then, 25%.

2,200 ((rubles)), plus 25%.. T.

A. This 56 ((vas) ) for what:

B. Length ((in years)) of service (vysluga).

A. For length of service:

B. Yes.

A. You remember this exactly - that the basic pay vas 1,700:

B. 1,700, yes.

1,700, ( (and)) 500.

Then, soon afterward; soon afterward, literally, wether at the

end of 1953, to my thinking, they too!: away ((the pay)) for rank

(za pogony); ve received only the basic pay, ((the pay for))

secrecy, and they did not pay for rank.

A. Then did this begin:

B. To my thinking, the end of 1953, the beginning of 1954; I do not

remember.

men, this vas, it continued approxinately a year, then again they

returned ((to paying)) for rank (za zvaniye).

A. Nell, approximately; you must know exactly the pay (zarplata), etc.

Then did they stop (srezali) paying for rank:

-CEr

---

## Page 82

104-10210-10033

remeaker that over the period of a ycar (y techeniye gode the n

mether in the end of 1953, in the beginning of 1951, they stopped

paying for ranl:. ((Pauses))

They did not pay for approximatoly a year (primerno v techeniye goda).

And then in what year did they bogin again to pay:

, B.

Well, after a year.

'A. Is it that you are saying that at the end of 1953 or in the beginning

of 1954 they stopped paying.

B. Yes.

Well, then, in 1954, they were not paying; in 19Jo, they already

vere paying again.

A. In 1955, they had begun to pay again:

B. Yes. ((Pauses))

I do not remember the date exactly.

A. Why did they take away ((the pay)) for rank:

B. The economy struggle (Bor'ba za elonomiyu)... In the Council of

Ministers (v Sovline), in the Council of Ministers (v Sovets

Ministrov).

A. This probably was somehow explained to the employees?

B. It was explained that ve consider that we alone of (IG) of the

Ministry, we ((are)) the nost

highly paid.

A .

So.

B. The nost (raiboleye) highly paid, and ((they.)) were the most (sanyye)

highly paid.

SECRET

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## Page 83

104-10210-10033

B. It ins the suggestion of soncone in the Presidium.

I do not remenber shose suggestion; a resolution (resheniyc) was

adopted in the Presidiu.

But it did not continue long:

It continued... for a year.

The problem was resolved anew.

A.

Bu': why did they begin to pay again.

Who made this suggestion.

...

B. I do not know.

They began to consider the work of the WVD - the Ministry, this vas

the forner MVD; there still vas no GB then -- they compared ((1t))

to the Army.

A. They vere compared to the Arny before this

B. You even asked me whether they made a tag ((or "addition" - pripiska))

to my rank; I say no.

There, they vere, you see, lajor of State Security (layor Gosbezo-

pasnosti), Senior Lieutenant of State Security, and so forth.

This was not the Army.

A.. Then was this:

B. Well, this was befcre the war and during the war (v gody voiuy),

during the var and even after the war.

A. Until approximately what time:

B. I do not know until what time approsimately.

I... did not have such

a tag (pripiska) to ny rank; I began to work

in 1953.

SEARE

---

## Page 84

104-10210-10033

B. ((Long pause)) Well, I do not reuember, I do not remember.

Because ((shen)) I cane, then there vas no State Sccurity; then,

there was

the Ministry of Internal iffairs.

Colonels, licutenants, without

the addition (hes dohavleniya) of

"GB ((State Sccurity - Gosbezopasnosti)) , without the addition.

A. But how did they unite the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the

Ministry for State Security.

What ranks did they have - those who were worting in the MGB and

those wio vere working in the ID.

B. ((Long pause; talks to hinself in a low voico, repeating the

question:)) It means, what ranks.

A. That kind.

lihat difference in ranks was there between the VD and the MGB.

B. But in the HIVD - this ((15)) the Mil'tia (eto Militsiya): Colonel

of Militia, Lieutenant of Militia, or Commissar of Militia.

A. But what else did they have?

They had, you see, not only the lilltia alone (ne tol ko odna

Militsiya) before the time when they vere joined (prisoyedinilis').

B. Well, there were the Convoy Troops, there were the camps, the

Construction Troops, there were....

A. What kind of ranks did they havei

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A. You began work when the ilVD already had begun (stalo), when BERIYA

had taken over (vzyal verkh) and they had combined the MVD and the

MGB.

---

## Page 85

104-10210-10033 difference in ranks "

was there ((betteen) those who had sored

previously in the ID and those sho had tored previously in the

NGD; now, they ((were)) tosether; what kind of difference in rants

existed botween

them.

B. I do not know, I do not know what kind of difference.

A. That - one vas called (odni nazyvalis') Major of Internal lifairs;

the other, Major of State Security, or how:

B. The point is that there las no tag (pripisia) ((like)) this "State

Security (Gosbezopasnosti)'.

((ihen)) I began work, there vas no such tag (ne lylo etoy pripisil).

1. But, in the IVD, what kind of tag vas there.

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Are you exactly certain that they paid you the basic pay (oslad) as

a case officer.-

B. I began as a case officer, as a case officer.

A. 1,700 rubles:

...

в. 1,700.

A. And 500?

B.

500 for rank (za zvaniye).

A. For rank:

B. They took away ((the pay for)) rank and... there was left - the

basic pay for position (dolzhnostnoy oklad) plus, tben, ((for))

---

## Page 86

104-10210-10033

ranguage, percentages only (protsentnige tol'ko).

A. You are saying, anyway (vse), that they too: away the pay for ran:

(za zvaniye snyall platit') at the end of 1953.

B. In fifty-... I think... I do not know exactly, I think that ((1t was))

at the end of 1953.

A. You renember exactly that you received ((pay)) for rank, but then

began not to receive (ne stali poluchat') ((such pay)):

B. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

A. Then began not to receive ((this pay)).

B. Did not receive, yes.

A. But then again began (stal)?

B. But then again I began to receive ((it)›.

A. Let us go bask a little, to....

B. This was, you see, a very short period, to my thinking, when the

MGB and the MVD were combined

under one Ministry and they

Fere in

one Ministry, a short period.

1. ... When, officially, did they organize the XGB:

B. In 1955, or 1954; 1954, l seems, or 1955.

((Wait a)) ninute.... ((Pauses))

He were even in 1954 or 1953; at one time the Second Directorate

was called - for approxinately six or eight nonths - the First

"Directorate.

But the First Directorate was the Second Directorate. ((Pauses))

I do not renenber... I do not renember.

CRET

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## Page 87

104-10210-10033

reenber, approx lately, wen they arrested ABAKUNOV

B.

Uhhh, ARIKUNOV, oho, they arrested before my tine of service

(("'before me" - do menya)).

A.

But approxinately when:

You worked there so many years, there were conversations

B. ABAKULOV was arrested when IGNAT'YEV was Kirister

A. When was IGNAT'YLY Minister.

B. IGNAT YEV was Minister until STALIN's death.

A. You remember who were his Deputies.

B. I was not working ((then)), I do not remember.

I know, I heard that GOGLIDZE ras a Deputy ((Minister)); he was

((Deputy Minister)) under both ABAKUMOV and IGNAT'YEV

A. Who else:

B. ((Long pause)) ASLENNIKOV, to my thinking, was at one time, yes.

One of the Deputies was SV INELUPOV •

Who was not there (Kogo tam tol'ko ne bylo):!

BLINOV and RYASNOY and SAYCHENKO and... they all charged... and

OGOL 'ISOV.

A. I have in mind only that period when -- as you began to say --

IGNAT'YEY was Minister; who were his...?

B. I do not know; I do not know.

Because I was not working in this period (2G) .

A. I understand.

You say that you were not working ((then)), but after this ((period))

EGRET

---

## Page 88

104-10210-10033

In more elone time you probably when you t

rived there, there were conversations: that ((one)) was, that

((one) ) was....

B.-I say:

there was RYASNOY, SAVCHENKO, they were Deputies.

A. To IGNAT'YEV.

B. TO IGNAT'YEV, yes.

A. You are certain of this.

B.

No, no, no; I am not certain, not certain.

I do not want to tell you, because i do not know exactly; I am not

certain.

I know that they were working; at what time - to my thinking,

under IGNAT'YEV (U IGNAT'YEVA).

A. Think about this a little; who else were IGNAT'YEV's Deputies!

B. ((Pauses)) I do not know.

I was not working ((there, then)).

I was not working

during IGNAT'YEV's tine, no.

1. But what happened

with GOGLIDZE:

B. Well, GOGLIDZE was arrested when BERIYA was arrested.

A. And HASLENNIKOV!

B. MASLENNIKOV:

This one shot himself.

It is not known why.

They say that he left a letter for the government (pravitel'stvo).

But the reasons - no one announced anything.

But this was after STALIN's death, later, MASLENNIKOY.

EGRET

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## Page 89

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B. He was removed (('These were removed" - Eti byll snyati)).

SVINELUPOV, he had been renoved previously (eto byli snyati ran'she).

He (Eto) was the Personnel nan (kadrovil) under ABARUMOV.

A. When, previously:

You are saying that he was under JASLENNIKOV... under IGNAT'YEV:

B. I do not know exactly.

I am saying that they worked in ABAKOV'S IGNAT'YEV's tine, such

people.

But when they, what years, when they were removed, were appointed --

I do not know this.

A. I do not want to drag you back to ABAKUMOV, etc.; I simply asked

how you knew who was ((there)):

You said that IGNAT'YEV was Minister....

B.

... IGNAT'YEY was Minister..

A. ... And my question was, who were his Deputies!

You said: GOGLIDZE, MASLENNIKOY, SVINELUPOV, SAVCHENKO, RYASNOY ....

B. No.

I am saying that ((they)) were, but who was, I am not certain.

Because I do not know exactly who were IGNAT'YEV's Deputies, who

were ABAKUNOV's; I do not know, I do nut know.

I know that at one time ((they)! were Deputies in this Ministry...

I gave his name (Ya nazval yego familiyu).

A. Of course, in each Ministry there are Deputies.

B. No.

((It is)) simply that I heard the names; it could have been

OGOL TSOV, RYASNOY, SAVCHENKO, SVINELUPOY, BLINOV; mao else:

SEGRET

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## Page 90

104-10210-10033

auL.

A. Do you remember anyone else who was under IGNAT'YEV:

B.

Ch, oh, oh; this very, a "climber" (bylez), a phenomenal career,

((one)) of the investigators (sledovatel'), a 'coner" (brosok) ...

how ((was)) his...:

He was a senior investigator and up to (do) Deputy Minister....

A. Who:

RYUMIN.

B. Yes, yes, yes; exactly.

A. What happened with RYUMIN:

B. Together.

Warn they removed IGNAT'YEV, they removed him, also.

RYUMIN was on the Doctors' Plot (( Case" - po delu vrachey)).

This ((was)) the Doctors' Plot; this ((vas)) RYUMIN.

A. And what happened with IGNAT'YEV after they had removed him

B. IGNAT'YEV went to the Tatar ((Autononous Oblat)), as First

Secretary, to the Tatar ((Autonomous Oblast)); it was surprising that

IGNAT'YSV remained in such a big post, having the Doctors' Plot on

his back.

As First Secretary in the Tatar ASSR, the Autonomous Oblast.

A. Did you hear

from anyone what part the Second Chief Directorate

took in this Doctors' Plot and ((the case of)) the letters of Lidiya

TINASHUK:

B. I do not know the details.

I only know only one interesting detail.

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do.not.know.((retheryyt1ginteresting.ornotInteresting.o

when I cane, when I had arrived -- here is what r intcresting -

SHUBYYAKOY phonedme, he talkcd with me, he phoned CoRBATENKO,

GOREATENÃO talked with me, and this very day I saw the Chief of the

First Dopärtnert -- that is, you understand, he still was assigaed

((chislilsya), but was not vorking, chen was not working, as Chief

of the First Departnent -- Colonel &OZLOV, Anatolly Serceyevich.

1.

Everyone in the world knows him (Yego vse znayut, vo vsen wire);

ve do not need to talk about hin (ne sleduyet o nem razgorarivat').

B. No, here, he took part on the Docto!s' Plot (v dele vrachey); he

took part; they sent (brosill) hin to the Special Investigative,

Investigative Unit (chast') for Especially Important Cases; they

sent (biosili) him for (na) the Doctor's Plot, and he took what

part:

They cailed up all these doctors who had been arrested and persuaded

them to give testinony (pokazanly.:) thai everything that they had

said before this was untrue, that this was taken only by beating

(tol'ko hitven), that they had told lies (nepravda) .

And the poor doctors did not know whether to tell lies now or to

tell the truth.

A. But finally they agreed to tell the truth.

B. In general, they convinced the doctors to adait that the previous

testimony had been incorrect.

It was in this that XOZLOY took part.

And therefore I said, when GORBATENKO, bis Chief of Department

(yego nachal'nik otdela), because KOZLOV continued to be assigned

(chislit'sya) as Chief of the Departnent....

But, TIMASHUK, then, I heard that they took back the Order of Lenin,

that it ((the case)) was "manufactured (dutoye)".

TIMASHUK was an agent.

A. But not only heard.

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B. In the newspapers, it was announced only that the Order of Lenin

had been taken away from her.

A. But that... you mentioned SAVCHENKO; what was he doing at this time.

During IGNAT'YEV's time.

B. They were, in order, in IGNAT'YEV's time, they were, in order,

SAVCHENKO, RYASIO, Chiefs of the First Directorace, the Intelligence

Directorate (Upravioniye Razvedki).

SAVCHENKS was ((Chief)) at one time; before this, SAVCHENKO had

worked in the Ukraine, but here, in Moscow, in loscow, he was Chief

of the First Directorate (Upravleniye Pervoye).

He was ( (Chief)) at one time;

then, one time, RYASNOY.

Then RYASNOY was Deputy, then RYASNOY was Chief of the Hoscow

Directorate (Moskovskoye Upravleniye).

That is what I heard (Vot takoye, takoye, slyshal).

A. What happened to RYASNOY later.

B. He was retired (Y otstavke on).

He was retired, on pension, and did not work anywhere.

Why do I know:

Because I was living at the dacha of one of the colleagues with

Whom KOVSHUK worked; the dacha was near RYASNOY's (dacha byla ryadom

s RYASNYH) .

A. But what of SAVCHENKO:

B. SAVCHENKO (A SAVCHENKO) ....

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