Originator: HSCI
Document date: 11/18/1975
Document type: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

File #:

62-110-116464

Serial Scope:

EBF

307

54980 Doerd: 32909727-Page 1

---

## Page 2

w. k

and basal

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVEO

• HEARINGS

BEFORE THE COMMITTEE

on.

SELECI COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE

FBI SURVEILIANCE

ACTIVITIES

Tuesday, November 18, 1975

Washington, D. C.

• .

Volute 27

= )

Official Reporters to Committees

GRO

10-75107-1

ENGLOSURE 62-116464-

301

AW 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 2

---

## Page 3

CRIESIS

3

7

B

30

12

13

STATEMENT OF

James B. Adams,

Assistant to the Director, FBI,

accompanied by

W. Raymond Wannall,

Assistant Directos,

FBI Intelligence Division,

Ro L. Shackelford,

Section Chief

David Ryan:

Special. Agent

Hugh Mallet,

Speciai. Agent

Archur Murtagh,

Retired FBI. Special Agent

Robect Hardy,

Former FBI Informat

Peter Camejo

Representative of the

Socialist Workers

Party

Kathy Sledge-Lougren,

Member of the Socialist Workers

Party

Robert Ceorge' Silverman,

President, Peer Interprises, Ith.

15

i6

17

78

19

20

21

22

23

2.44

2215

Further testimony of:

W. Raymond Wannall,

Assistant DirectOra

FBI Intalligence Division

-.

MH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 3

PAGE

4120.

4177

4190

4205

4214

4218

4242

---

## Page 4

4116

FBI SURVEILLANCE ACTIVITIES

Rudolph

Tuesday, November 18, 1975

12

12

14

$5

16

House of Representacives,

Select "Committee on

Intelligence,

washingion, D. C.

The connittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 120:00

aulie, in Room 2151 Rayburn House Office Building, the Fonorable

Otis C. Pike (Chairman), presiding.

Present:

Represertatives Pike (Chairman), Dellons,

Stanton; Murphy, Milfosa, Heyes, Lehnan, McClory, Ireen,

Raster, and Johnson.

Also Present. A. Searle Field, Staff Directos;

Aaron B. Donner, Counsel: and Peter Hughes, Committee staff.

18

19

70

28

22

23

2A

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 4

---

## Page 5

4717

$

: 3

30

11

84

15

16

17

18

19

80

21

22

23

25

Chairman Pike. The

committee will come to order.

Today we have a rather interesting hearing in the realm

of risk. We are interested, all of us, of course, in preserving

our

national

security.

One of che agencies greatly responsible for that is

che Faderal Bureau of Inrestigation.

In the cousse of doing

5o, the role of government sometimes lays a rather heavy hand

on the lives of citizens.

So what. we are going to be looking

at today is what the FBI does, wnat its cole is,

Then we will be looking at some of the people whose lives

It has touched. I think we have a largs number of witnesses

today: Mi, james B. Adams, che Assistant to che Diredtor

of the FBI, Mc. W. Raymond Wannall, the Assistant Disector

for FBI Intelligence, will be the FBI witnesses. I propose we

the fBi tescimony firsc and ask them any questions chat

wish to ask the FBI. We will probably not complete any

more than that in the morning session.

In the afternoon I propose we go to some of the testimony

from the individuals. I vould simply asl: that the fBI people

do stay around during the afternoon session so that in the

event they want to offer any rebuttal o1: in the eveni

that other questions arise which should be addresged to

them, that would be possible. Is that a reasonable request?

Mr. Adans. We do have one problem.. We have testimony

scheduled all day tomorrow before the Senate and both of

WH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 5

---

## Page 6

1

3

10

$1

18

18

{4

16

18

18

18

20

7.

. 22

23

24

25

4118

these coming

so close together does pui somewhat of a burden

on us in preparing for both. I think we can work something

or'i

where we will have somaone

available.

Chairman Pike. I would simply request that somebody

responsible and inowleâgeable from the FBI be here this

afternoon in order to respond to the questions of the

Members

and if they desire, to the statements of the other witnesses

and the statements of the other witnesses will be made.

available to you

-..

Mr. McClory. Will the Chairman yield?

Chairman Pike. Cercainly, NI. McClory.

Mc. McClosy, I want to state, Mr. Chatsman, that I

certainly welcome the testimony we are to receive here

from the FBI and from che others that are scheduled to

appeas before the comittee and to state very affirmatively

that in my opinion ve have a great Federal Bureau of

Investigation which does an excremely important job for us.

while we may be touching'upon some abuses or excesses in the

course of this hearing, I don't want that to be interpreted

as any diminution of my respaci for this law enforcenent.

agency.

I do vant to say, too, that I feel that the staff

has put together a very important bit of testimony here

this norning, has organized a very good hearing for us.

I have encouraged this. I have wanted it. It has taken

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 6

---

## Page 7

4119

• little while to

schedule it. But I welcome a review

of this aspect of our intelligence activity-and hope thac

3

out of it we can in this

area

as well as ocher areas oi

the intelligence activity:

find

some means by which we can

improve the efficiency, the effectiveness, the coordination

and other aspects of the entire incelligence community fo:

the benefit of our nation.

S

thank you very much.

Chaimman Pike. The

• Fbi statement will be presented

10

by fir. Janes B. Adams. Fou may proceeê.

10

12

13

84

15

17

18

19

20.

21

22

23

'24

HH 54980

DocId:32989727 Page 7

---

## Page 8

4320

4

10

18.

13

15

18

18

19

20

STATEMENT Or

JARIES B. ADAMS, ASSISTANT TO THE

DIRECTOR, ISI: ACCOPAHIED BY W. FAYHOND WANNALE,

ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI INTCLLIGENCE DIVISION:

R. Is SEACKELFORD, SECTION CRIEF; DAVID REAN,

SPECIAL, AGENT, AND KOCH MALLET, SPECIAL ACENT

Mi. Adams. Mc. Chairnan and Members of the Committee:

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today

to disouss the FBI's domestic intelligence responsibilities.

I chink that it woula ba appcopriate for me to begin

my precentation by outlining in genera. terms the purposes of

FBi domestic intelligence investigations. To ada che

historical perspective necessary to fully understand the FBI's

role in this field over the years, I will briafly describe

for you the ciscumstancas under which the FBI was assigned its

present domestic intelligence responsibilities and how the

Bureau, in response to ever-changing threats to internal.

security, has fulfilled these responsibilities.

It must be recognized thai the FBI's domestic intelli

gence function, as it exists today, derives from the Attorney

General's dual responsibility to enforce congressional enactments

and perform other auties which have been delegated to him by

the President These ther

•âutles inciude rendering policy

.22

23

24

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 8

---

## Page 9

4121

recommendations to the President with respect to matters

affecting internal security, administering aspects

of the

Government's employee security program, and making determinations

relative to the deployment of the military by the President,

should such

action be necessary to quell civil disturbances.

Because

the. FBI's investigative responsibilities

follow the contours of those entrusted to the Attorney General,

the Bureau's domestic intelligence investigations are, of

necessity, broader than investigations strictly designed to

collect evidence for criminal proceedings. The FBI's domestic

intelligence responsibilities have a distinct anticipatory, or

preventive, purpose, requiring continuing investigative activity

in cases wherein criminal conduct remains a future possibility.

Thus, the objective of FBI domestic intelligence

investigations is to obtain information concerning activities

which are intended to undermine or overthrow the

Government

of the United States, incite domestic violence or rioting,

or deprive individuals of their civil rights. The FBI investi-

gates these threats to domestic security both to develop

evidence for legal proceedings and to provide the Attorney

General with information upon which to make assessments and

policy recommendations pertaining to specific, nonpenal

aspects of the Nation's domestic security program which are

administered by the Department of Justice.

- 2 -

-...

HN 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 9•

---

## Page 10

4122

The FBI's domestic intelligence function today has

its origin in instructions issued by President Franklin D.

• Roosevelt as early as 1934.

On May 8, 1934, President Roosevelt ordered the FBI

to conduct an intelligence-type investigation to determine

whether there was a connection between the Nazi movement in

the United States and German diplomatic and other official

representatives in

this country. This investigation of the

Nazi movemen: was conducted along the specified guidelines set

by the President and was not expanded to include other groups

or movements.

However, on August 24 and August 25, 1936, President

Roosevelt instructed former FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to

obtain what Mr. Hoover characterized as "general intelligence

information" concerning "subversive activities in the

United States, particularly Fascism and Communism."

In response to President Roosevelt's request, FBI

Director Hoover issued instructions for the development of an

investigative program which would be responsive to the require-

ment imposed upon the Bureau by the President. The investigative

program undertaken by the FBI pursuant to these instructions

is being continued today in accordance with directives embodied

in Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 0.85, which.

sets forth the general functions of the FBI.

HN 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 10

---

## Page 11

By 1938, the FBI had developed the broad outlines of

a domestic intelligence investigative program to fulfill the

President's request for information about subversive activities

in. the United States. By letter, dated October 20, 1938,

then Attorney General Homer Cummings forwarded to President

Roosevelt a memorandum from FBI Director Hoover, outlining

how the President's 1936 instructions were being implemented

by the Bureau.

this time, President Roosevelt was informed

that the FBI was investigating subversive activities and

that the results of its investigations were being broken

down for ready reference by subject matter, including,

"Maritime; government; industry (steel, automobile, coal

..mining, and miscellaneous) ; general strike; armed forces:

educational institutions; Fascisti; Nazi; organized labor;

Negroes, youth; strikes; newspaper field; and miscellaneous."

On November 2, 1938, President Roosevelt advised

that he approved of Director Hoover's plan. The investigative

program in the field of domestic intelligence which President

Roosevelt had instructed the FBI to begin in 1936, and the

general scope of which he approved in 1938, was reaffirmed

in subsequent years by succeeding Presidents.

- 4

• 1*4*

1H 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 11

---

## Page 12

4124

Almost from its inception, the FlI's domestic

intelligence role was recognized as a functional element

in the overall United States national security effort, and

appropriate mechanisms were devised to integrate the FBI's

investigations in this field with the activities of the military

services. Pursuant to a Presidential Directive, dated

• June 26, 1939, the Interdepartmental Intelligence Conference

was formed as an independent committee with FBI Director Hoover

as its Chairnan. The purpose of the Interdepartmental Intel-

ligence Conference was to coordinate the FBI's foreign and

domestic security investigations with the activities of the

military intelligence agencies and to facilitate the exchange

of information of mutual interest.

When the Congress established the National Security

Council to achieve national policy-level coordination of

United States security programs, overall policy supervision

of intelligence investigations conducted by the FBI as a

member agency of the Interdepartmental Intelligence

Conference was transferred to the National Security Council.

The National Security Council retained policy-level

supervisory responsibility for FBI domestic intelligence

programs until President Kennedy ordered this responsibility

transferred to the office of the Attorney General, where it

has remained since 1964.

- 5 -

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 12

---

## Page 13

4125

With the historical origins of the FBI's domestic

intelligence responsibilities in mind, let us review how

the FBI has fulfilled these responsibilities over the years

in response to ever-changing threats to the domestic security

of the United States.

Between 1936 and 1938, as the FBI moved to develop

a domestic intelligence investigative program in response to

the President's 1936 instructions, the world situation

steadily worsened as Adolf Hitler rose to power in Germany,

Italy turned to Fascism, and Japan moved toward an expansionist

policy in the Pacific. In the United States concern was growing

over the danger of potential espionage, sabotage, and subversion.

In 1940, the Congress passed the Smith Act, which

was directed against communist subversion. During World War

II, of course, the main priorities of the FBI were directed

towards thwarting espionage and sabotage efforts intended to

undermine the war effort.

After World War II, as the Iron Curtain descended

across Europe and the wartime alliance with the Soviet Union

changed to cold war, the problem of domestic communism

became of grave concern to the American people. Passage of

the Labor-Management Relations Act of 1947, the Internal

Security Act of 1950, and the Communist Control Act of 1954,

represented congressional expressions of this concern.

- 6 -

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 13

---

## Page 14

4126

The FBI reacted too, and the Bureau's investigation

of communist activity in this country led to the exposure of

the conspiratorial nature of international communism.

The decade of the 1950's brought new threats to

our free society as night riders of the Ku Klux Klan sought

to terrorize citizens through bombings, burnings, and other

acts of violence.

As the Klan's threat to the national welfare grew

to a general patten of organized violence, the FBI moved

to provide all-out assistance, including close checks on the

activities of Klan members suspected of involvement in criminal

activities.

The FBI's intensive investigation of the activities

of the Ku Klux Klan echoed the strong determination of our

Nation's elected representatives to oppose the type of

discrimination that the Klan practiced in its most violent

form. During this period Congress enacted the Civil Rights

Acts of 1948, 1964, and 1968..

The 1960's brought other forms of threats to the

Nation to which both the FBI and the Congress reacted. Rioting

in our cities was described as the most difficult intelligence

problem in the Department of Justice by the Attorney General

in 1968. Congress responded to this wave of violence in that

year with the passage of Antiriot Laws.

The President of the

- 7

-.. .

HW 54980

DocId:32989727 Page 14

---

## Page 15

4127

United States; in appointing a Special Advisory Commission

on Civil Disorder, stated that public officials had "an

immediate" obligation "to end disorder" using every means

at.:

• (their). command."

The President warned "if your

response to these tragic events is only business-as-usual,

you invite not only disaster but dishonor."

In response to this new threat to public order,

the FBI conducted extensive investigations of extremist

activities, which had, by 1967, become a severe national

problem. During the first nine months of 1967, racial

violence in

67 cities cost 85 lives, injured 3,200 Americans,

and resulted in property damage of over $100,000,000.

During the late 1960's, college campuses also

experienced a "rising tide of intimidation and violence,"

in the words of University of Wisconsin faculty members.

College and university activities were frequently halted by

seizures of buildings, detention of faculty and administrative

officials, and other outrages. During the 1968-1969 academic

year, there were demonstrations on over 200 college campuses,

many involving arson, bombings, and other violence.

In 1970, the Congress passed a

series of laws

aimed at the control of bombings across the country. In

September of that year, the President's Commission on Campus

- 8

HH 54980 DocId:32989727

Page 15

---

## Page 16

4128

Unrest, noted, "It is an undoubted fact that on some campuses

there are men and women who plot, all too often

successfully,

to burn and bomb, and sometimes to maim and kill. The police

must attempt to determine

whether of not such a plot is in

progress, and, if it is, they must attempt to thwart it."

In response to these threats, FBI Special Agents

were already conducting investigations to identify individuals

and organizations posing a threat of violence. Organizations

whose members' activities were exceytionally violent were

the subjects of intensive investigations.

New forms of violence which represent threats to our

domestic security have emerged as others pass into obscurity.

Today, the FBI faces new, complex, challenges in combating

such activities.

For example, the Bureau must face the problem

of terrorism, or violent criminal activity designed to intimidate

for political purposes. From 1971 through 1974 there were

641 reported terrorist incidents, including such acts as

bombings, firebombings, ambushes, and police killings.

Violence of this kind has confronted the FBI with

the task of investigating small, highly secret and mobile

groups of criminals styling themselves in the image of the

guerrilla soldier, who have adopted his jargon of urban warfare

and his revolutionary political ideology.

- 9

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 16

---

## Page 17

4129

Some of these groups have become expert in fashioning

• false identifications. Their tactics include kidnapings,

hijackings, bombings, assassinations, and armed robberies to

finance further revolutionary activities. Unfortunately,

the law enforcement officer, our first line of defense against

such groups and the most visible symbol of Government, is

frequently the first target of their violence. Self-styled

urban guerrillas

have been linked to the murder of 43 police

officers in this country since 1971; and another 152 officers

have been wounded in related incidents.

You should be aware that terrorists have vowed to

"bring the fireworks". to our Nation's Bicentennial celebration

next year. I believe some will try who are perfectly capable

of fulfilling this threat.

Last January, 4 persons died and 53 others were

injured in

a bomb explosion at the historic Fraunces Tavern

in New York City. Responsibility for this explosion was claimed

by a group calling itself the Armed Forces of Puerto Rican

Liberation.

Many feel that this savage act in New York could be

a prelude to more devastation as July 4, 1976, approaches.

The American people may rightfully expect their public officials

to anticipate and prevent such violence.

- 10 -

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 17

---

## Page 18

4130

The FBI has no desire to oppose. legitimate dissent.

Nevertheless, it is our grave responsibility to investigate

domestic violence of this kind. It is a difficult assignment,

• but one which the FBI will continue to perform vigorously with

-whatever lawful resources are available to it.

Most Americans are genuinely concerned with such

threats to our domestic security and recognize the need of

their Government, through the exercise of its law enforcement

power, to respond. You should also be aware, however, that

there are others who have as their ultimate goal' the overthrow

of our political institutions and economic system. These

individuals publicly state that they consider terrorist

activity (quote) counterproductive (quote) in today's

political climate. Nevertheless, they by no means renounce

its use at the right moment to attain their objective.

As I indicated to you at the beginning of my remarks,

we in the FBI appreciate the opportunity to offer our

observations concerning intelligence investigations by the

Bureau designed to protect the domestic security of the Nation.

It is our hope that out of the current congressional assessment

of the FBI and its proper role, the American people will be

assured that their Nation's law enforcement and domestic security

interests will be protected effectively and in a manner consistent

with the policies declared by their elected officials.

1.

11 -

1N 54980 D001d:32989727 Page 18

---

## Page 19

4131

Permit me to conclude my remarks by stating my hope

that out of improved communications between the FBI and, the

Congress,. a balanced picture of the Bureau's domestic

intelligence role will amerge which, in addition to identifying

any weaknesses in its past performance, also recognizes its

accomplishments and preserves for the FBI the necessary

flexibility to successfully fulfill domestic security

responsibilities.of ever-increasing complexity.

In this connection, I should reiterate our willingness

to report to the Congress concerning our performance in this

field and adherence to rules established for us. . It is our

view that establishment of a joint Senate-House oversight

committee would greatly facilitate this process and avoid

duplication of testimony and the proliferation of highly

sensitive information.

Nevertheless, whatever mechanism is eventually

established to maintain communications between the FBI and

the Congressi: I am sure that we can all agree on the necessity

of preserving the Bureau's ability to function effectively as

a deterrent to criminal violence by those who seek to undermine

our Constitution.

Mx. Chairman, that concludes my statement. I would

be happy to answer your questions.

...

-12 -

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 19

---

## Page 20

4132

3

6

9÷23

Đ

10

13

12

14

13

$6

17

18

19

29

21

.22

22

21

Chairan Pike. Thank you very much, Mc. Adams.

I think we can all. agree on the necessity of preserving the

Bureau's ability to function effectively as a deterrent

to

criminal violence. I think we can alas all agree on the

desirability of having a balanced picture of the Bureau's

domestic activities. I think at this time our next

witnees would be in order, a retired FBI man who spent 20

years with the Bureau. I vould like to ask Me. Archus

Mustagh to tole the stand ac this particular point

and give his teacimony.

ME. MCClOsy. Mr. Chairmas, may I suggest that we conclude

with the enamination or questioning of these witnesses and

excuse then?

Nov I undarstand cheze vas sone effort earlies to effect

@ panel here of representatives of the FBI and dissenters

an persons that were subjected to investigation and so on.

Chairman Pike. Ire gentlenan is correct. There was

an effort to establish sich a panal.

ME. IcCloty. Yes, and the FBI expressed their

unwillingness. to participate in a pacel.

Chairman Pike. That is correct.

Mr. Mociory. I think if ve now proceed to call other

witnesses that we will be violating the basis upon which

the FBI has come here this norning.

Chairman Pike. Do you have any objection to having

WH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 20

---

## Page 21

4133

2.

a recired FBI.

man

testify at this pariicular point, Mr.

Adams, before ve go into che questioning? I will do it your

wey.

пал 330-28

4

.5

G

10

$1

12

13

14

35

16

87

$8

19

20

27

22

23

24

25

Me. Adams.

Yes,

I do.

Chairman Pike. Then we will not have the retired FBI man

testify ai this tine.

Mr. Adams, you refer to the ever changing threats.

I would agree with you that the threate are indeed ever changing.

The question is how nuch our tec"niques change and how much our

procedures change to neet these ever changing threats. You

have been investigating the Socialist Horkers Parcy of the

United States of America, as I understand it, fox 30 years, now.

Do you find thac their threat is today the same threat chai

it was 30 years ago?

Mio Adans. Yes, sira

Chairman Pike. What is chai threat?

ME. Adans. Well, the threat is in an organizacion chat

advocates the overthron of the goverment by revolutionary

means and that basic philosophy is one that brings it within

the investigative purview of the IBI.

Chalman Pike. The FBI position is thai this paciy ad-

vocates the overthrow of the United States of America by

revolutionary means, is that correct?

Mr. Adams, Yes.

Chairman Pike. During that 30 years of surveillance

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 21

---

## Page 22

4

10

18

$3

14

15

1G

18

19

20

21

2222

23

24

25

4134

and investigation, how many menbers of the socialist workere

Party have evas been indicted and tried for advocating

che revolutionary overchrow of che United Scates or America?

Mi. Adams. There were some earlier in 1940 under the

Smith Act.

Thore were 18 under the Smith Act.of 1940.

Their trials would have been in 1941 or somewhere in that

period.

Chairman Pike. So, siace 1941 there have been 20

indicinents or prosecutions of members of this party, is that

socceet?

KI. Adams.

to my knowledge.

Chairman Pike. Now, in the course of invescigating the

IPS-how long did you investigate chen?

Mi. Adamse

About five years.

Chairnan Pike, In the course of that investigation, if I

had made a phone call to the IPS, woulá my phone cali to the

IPS have losen recorded?

Just for the benefit of anybody

who might not know, this is a very liberal group known

as the Institute for Policy Scudies, a relatively liberal group.

I hate to characterize people..

Nov, would my phoid call to this group have been

intercepted?

Mr. Adams. Mr. Chairman, I would say no to that question.

I believe this is a matter of a statement that tas been made

Dy us publicly. I do have one problen, according to guidelines

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 22

---

## Page 23

4135

given to us by the Department in connection with public

testinony, ron va get into activities. specific accivities

of specific organizationg or individuals where ve co have

matters in litigation or under crininal investigation chat-

Chairman Pike. I'm not aware of any matter under

investigation, or under criminal investigation in connection with

10.

18

19

14

15

17

19

20

28

•22

23

220

25

the question wich I am going to ack you next, but it is very

specific. Mas a pione call fron my Administrative Assistanc

to the institute for Bolicy Scudies intercepted and recorded

by the FBI?

Ms. Adams. I have no inowledge of any such interception.

Chairan Pike. If I had knowledge of such -- 30, I

will withdraw that. Was a communication which was not necessarily

a phone call . I believe it was a phone call, but not.

necessarily a phone call - from my Administrativa Assistant

to the Insticute for POlicy Siudies intercepted?

Mir, adams. I don't have any information of such.

Do You?

Ns. Shackelford. Noc to my inowledge.

Mr. Adams. I have never haard the allegation. It has

never been presented to me prior to this hearing by staft or

anybody else.

Chairman. Pike. I read to you. from a document labeled

:

"WEO-ID0-16784; WEI-4" and I don't know what WrT 4 means,

you probably do . "Advised that Mis. Roberi Gale Woolbert,

Administrative Assistant to Congressman Otis G. Pike (D)

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 23

---

## Page 24

3

30

23

13

Fast

58.

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

• 4136

of the Congressional District of New York, was asked by Byron

Johnson, who is another former Congressman,- to call Marcus.

Raskin and did so

on 7:26-72. Johnson was running

for the

Fifth Congressional District of New York and wondered if

Raskin would the willing to go around and round up a group of

liberal anti-war folks for the evening of August & or 12.1"

Is ii possible that the document from which I read does

in faci represent an incerception of a phone call from my

Congressional office to the IPS?

Me. Adams. It certainly doesn': sound like i to me.

The

"y" would be a means of concealing the identity of

an individua?

who furnished us information.. It could refe

some other type of means, but nonally not;

Chairman Pike. It was sone other form of surveillance,

is thai what you are saying?

ser. Adans. It sounds like a live individual who has furnished

that information. Had I been aware of it, I coula have

checked and I will be glad to check at the request of the

committee.

Chairman Pike. I have soms mild interest in the subject.

MI. MCCiOIT•

Vr. MeCiory, Thank you, Mi. Chairman.

First of all, I wish to say I appreciate the cooperation

which the FBI has given this comnittee in providing us with

information that ve require in order to carry on this investigation

WH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 21

---

## Page 25

4137

- 44

8

3

10

11

12

15

16

17

18

10

20

28

22

23

25

I personally visited down at the FBI. I know that in

addition to the information you provided at that tine, much

of the classified information, that you have cooperated

subsequent to that time with additional material for the benefit

of our committee and for this hearing.

The thing that concerned me then and concems me now

is whether or not in addition to the activities abouc which

you have testified . are there any private, sort of ad hoc

activities which are carried on by the Directos of the FrI,

or any other personnel?

Iknow that there were private files

that were kept by a former Director of the FbI. Are there

any such private files about individuals being kept now?

Mi. Adams• Sinilar to the official confidential files

maintained by Mi. Hcover?

ME. MCCLOLY. Yes.

Mir. Adams. No, sir, noc in chat context.

MI. MCCLOLY. How about the release of information of the

FBI?

For instance, for a long tims there existed a sort of

arrangenent whereby a President of the United States or others

in the

• White House, just by a telephone call, could receive

detailed information about whatever individual they sought

information from the private files of the FBI, Has that

practice been discontinued?.

Mc. Adams.

Yes, sit. We testified in February concerning

various abuses about the FBI. One was concerning certai

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 25

---

## Page 26

4138

10

19

52

15

:

17

78

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Instances where the Precident or individuals acting

for the Presideni hed requested informacion which on its

face would appear to be improper although we did not

know the full reason for the request.

I would say that the cleansing

i effect of. Wareigate has

discontinued sach practices. I know

I have calked wich Mr.

Relleyand the other members of the executive staîf of the

FBI. He collectively know of no such inproper overtures

having been made on the FBI since fir. lelley has been Director.

Me. McCiouy. It is a basic policy now of the FBI

that any material in IBI files will not be used for political

Furposes, is that cocrect?

Nr. Adams. Absolutely.

Me, McClony. I want to inquize about the Internai

Security Index or the ADEX, how meny people's names are on that

Jist, hon do they get there, and how do you get your name

off that list?

ME. Adams Basically-the ADEX or Administrative Index

is an index to investigations currently being conducted

by the rel where a determination has been made within the

FBI that thai individual is a threat to the incernal security.

a curient threat ac the present time. It is a very small

list, relatively small. It involves approximately 1,250

names at the present cima.

ME. MoCIOnY•

what is the longest length of tine that

NW 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 26

---

## Page 27

4139

10

11

1%

13

84

15

16

877

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

a name has been on thät list?

Do you have nanes that have been on there for 30 or 40

years?

ME. Adans, No, sir.

The Administzativa Index did

not come into play until 1971. Prior to thac. time we had the

Security Indes, which vas a listing which had a different

purpose.

Ms. McClory. Does membership in the Socialist voskers

Party just aucomatically put you on the Indez?

Mr. Adams. No, sit, it does not.

Mc. McClory. About how many members of that parcy wculd

you have on the list, do you suppose?

Ms. Adams. i can give you that figure.. I would prefer

that any detailed description of targets and individuals

be done in executive session.

Nr. McClory. Have you furnished that information already

to the staff?

Mr. Adams. I do not know that we have a request.

Mr. Nicclory. If not, would you furnish that?

I would like to have the number. I don't have to know the

names.

Mi. Adans. Yes, sir, I have no objection to furnishing

ic to then.

ME. MCClOrY. You mentioned in your statement that you

are not only interested in subversive accivity which implied

NH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 27

! 1

---

## Page 28

G

20

21

72

13

14

15

35

17

18

19

290

23

22

23

24

23

4140

violence but also "undermining." What is the difference

between the violent overthrow of the United States and

undermining the United States?

have you got two groups that

you are interested in?

Mr. Adans. No, sir, they are both vorking toward

the same enã. It is ali inherent in the same idea of

activity with the intent or design to overchrow the governnent

of the United States or any subdivision by force and violence.

Mr. Moclory. My time is up.

Thank you very much.

Chaizman Pike. Mr. Stanion.

Mr. Stanton, Thank you, Mc. Chairman.

Me. Wannall, has the FBI ever participated in

burglaries in order in obtrin infornation for their purposes

of investigation?

Mr. Wannall. I think Mr. Kelley at a news confejence

in July acinowledged that the FBI had parcicipated in

surreptitious entries to obtain information.

Mc. Stanton. Were chey illegal activities?

it. Wannall. I'm not in a position to render an opinion.

The whole thing, as a matter of faci, is under study by the

Deparinent of justice at this tine.

Mr. Stanton. Could you tell me, from 1945 until the

present, how many instances occurred?

Mr. Wannall. We have made a very thorough study and have

WH 51980 DocId:32989727 Page 28

---

## Page 29

4140-A

2

4

10

81

$2

18

34

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

• 24

25

intervioned numerous individuals who might have been

the figure that I recall

knowledgeable in that area.

that we have come up with is aboui a dozen and a half

targets. However, there had been numercus entries againsi

some of those targets. I thinis we have accounted for something

in the neighborhood of 240 entries, none of which have taken

place since Apzil of 1968.

Mr. Stanton. Since April of 1963?

Mr. Wannall. In our comestic area.

Mi. Stanton. Do you know what illegal entry is under

the law? Are you a lawyex?

MI. Wannali. I think I understand what an illegal

entry is, yes, sit.

Mr. Scanton. Do any of these fit that definition?

Ix. Wannall. I think in che definition, intent to

comic a crime within the premises would be includea. The

entries that were made -

Mr. Stanton. Do you know what breaking and entering

is under the State law of Maryland or Chio?

Mi. Wannall. Yes, sir.

Mc. Stanton. Do you have to have the intent to commit

a crime to break and enter?

Mr. Wannall. I would say you probably do not have

to have an intent to conmit the crime on the premises.

Mr. Scanton. Intent is not an important element. In

HH 54980 DocId:32989727

Page 29

---

## Page 30

4140-B

3

$

HUFINENTТИЕ

30

12

38

14

$5

16

17

39

20

21

23

22

25

other words, is you had the noblest intent in the world

but if you are breaking and optering it is still a violation

of the state law, corract?

Mr. Wannall. I would take your definition of it,

Ma. Congressman.

Me. Scanton. I would like to have your definicion. I

would lite co know what a prominent person in the FBi. thinks

of breaking and entering.

Mr. Wannall. I can assure you there are no such

circumstances today.

Ne. Stanton, That is not the queation. The question is

do you understand what breaking and entering 153

Mr. Wannallo Tes.

Mx. Stanton. Has the EBI illegally entered premises

in terms of secking information?

Mc. Wannail. The FBI has entered premises without che

Inculedge of the owners of the prenises for the pazpose of

seaking informacion, yes, six.

Mi. Stanton. In other words, they are guilty of

brealing and entering and

violating the law of the states

this Union, is thai correct?

Me. Wannall. Again, I am noc going to render an opinion

that is in the hands où the Deparement of justice at this cime.

Mr. Stanton. Why did they gst involved in breaking

and entering?

NH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 30

---

## Page 31

{

5

10

13

18

4140-C

Mr. Wannall. I think basically it had to do wich che passage

of the Incernal security taw of 1950, Title II.

Congress direched the Justice Department to place itsalf

in a posicion, in the event of a national emergency, is take

off che streets indivicuals who might be placed in detention

caups

Mx. Stanton. is there anything is that act that allows

the FBI to break and encer a awelling?

• Mea Wannalli, No, sir.

Me. Stanton. Then that is not justification for chose

Illegal entries, is it?

Mr. Wannall.

the Act itself did not provide for such

breaking and enteringe

it pericà relier than yesterd

Nso Scanton.

So the fact of the matter is that the FBI

carrot use that as a basis fos illegally breaking and

entering an inhabited welling.

Mr. Wannall. I know of no law which would permit the

¡FBi to do chei.

15

16

17.

18

19

20.

21

- 228.

23

.24,

25

IW 54980 DocId: 32/89727 Page 31

---

## Page 32

Els ma

2

5

5

10

13

120.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22.

29

24

4141

MI. Scanton.

Then the FBI has been involved in illegal

aotivities?

Mr. Wannall. The FBI has been involved in breaking

and entering.

Nx. Stanton. Have they ever sought the Attorney

General's permission prior to 1972 for breaking and entering?

MI. Wannall. Not to my knowledge.

Me. Scanton. Who was the person responsible prior to

1972 for approving a breaking and entering?

Mr. Wannall. These were approved at the highest levei

of the Bureau, normally the Directos of the FBI.

Mr. Stanton. Then Me. Hoover directed the activities

He did not sack appaoval, from the Astorney General?

Mx. Wannall. To my knowledge,

hs did not.

Mr. Stanton. In other words, Mr. Hoover felt that he

had the power to violate the law of a State or of this

country?

opinion was?

Mr. Wannall. Are you asking me what ir. Hoover's

Mr. Stanton. Yes.

I am asking you if he approved

illegal activities.

Mr. Wannall. He approved the breaking and entering,

yes, six.

-..

Mx. Stanton. Do you think that in terms of the United

States Government that for the purposes of the bureau and for

HH 51980

DocId: 32989727 Page 32

7=7

---

## Page 33

3

"4

9

10

11

12

18

18

$5

18

17

18

19

20

28

• 22

23

:

25

4142

purposes of this governnent that the activities of the Bureau

are going to be improved by virtue of the fact that we have

had exposure of some of the illegal activities of the Buceau?

In other words, do you feel that the esamination of

these questions publicly is going to be therapeutic for the

Bureau?

kir. Wannall. I thins they will be, yes, siz.

Me. Stanton.

Thank you.

Chairman Pike. Mr. Murphy-

Mic. Murphy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mi. Adams, one of the problems we have, I think, with

the FBI with regard to wiretapping

and it is a practice

that the FaI has not admitted to but about which we have some

information thai leads un to believe that it went on in the

past and I am wondering if it has been stopped - is this

business of reliable informants.

We understand that the FBI will go into a town, say.

Chicago where I an from; and they will get a local policeman

or some local police force to do viretapping for them. They

pass this information on to a strike force then made up of

FBI agent, Justice representative, IRS agent. Then, when

they go to court and they are asked where the evidence came

from they can properly say we did not have anyching to do

with the wiretap.

Do you get any infornation that way that you classify

NH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 33

---

## Page 34

41-13

1.

€

8

10

18

14

i8

19

21

2%

23

21

25

as reliable informanto?

Mx a dams.

Not that parcicular situation. If the

Chicago Police Deparinent is engaged in illegal wiretaps

and

It cane to ous attention, we would oper an investigacion under

the

interception-o-communication statute.

!

Mr. Musphy. We have been advised by Illinois Bell and

they have admitted to the President's Commission on Wiretapping

that they nevor reported in the

last three or four years any

illegal wiretap they came abouc except as to the customer

wose line they found it on. They said they haù no duty to

report it to the rederal authoricies.

I am wondering what your interpretation of theix

position woulÂ be?

Mc. Adams.

You are calking about the telephone company?

Mr. Musphy. I am talking about the Illinois Bell

Telephone Company, the only subsidiary of AIst which does not

report virataps to l'ederal authosities or any authorities.

The rest of the system all does.

I am under the opinion that a citizen in he sees a

crime or knows of a crime being comnitted, he has a duty to

report it to the proper authorities.

MX. Adams.

I, an a little hesitant to conment on theis

testimony not having read it or being familiar with the exact

wording of the statement. But I do agree with you that when

information comes to the attention.of a citizen - ve loge this

..

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 34

---

## Page 35

inde

4144

3

10

8 1

12

13

82

16

i7

19

20

2.%

22.

23

25

of anyone - that this should be reporced to proper law

enforcement authorities.

Mi. Murphy. Let me ask you a queacion, Mi. Adams.

There vas an inordinate number of ez-FBI agents working

for the ATir and ste subsidiries throughout the countsy.

Is there any purposeful connection there?

Ms. Adams. No.

I think you will. find in any rajor

segment of industry that securicy officers; FBI agents, are

employed in many industries as security officers. I think

they have demonstrated over the years their qualifications.

they do gravitate to good positions in privace industry:

But these is no concerted effori to penetrate or io

control or dominate or do anything of this sort on the part

of IBI agents collectively or individually.

Mr. Murphy. Was it a practice of your department that

when you are summoned before a congressional committee and

queries are presented to you as to how many wiretaps are

existing today in the United Stases, was it your practice

to then, before the Director came down, to send out a

notification, "Take the wiretaps off for a weeit of two so

when I go to the committee I can testify thät as of this day

there are oniy 10 or only 4 domestic wiretaps existing"?

Mt. Adams. Absolutoly not. I triieve the information we

furnished to this commitice, and to the senate Comnittee state

would clearly show by checking against appropriations

HW 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 35

---

## Page 36

&

20

11

$2

24

17

4145

testimony, information of that type.

There was no such

activity.

Mr. Boover Frankly inposed restzaints on

wiretapping in the FBI, considerable restraints on wiretapping.

In fact, sone of the material we made available shows that he

was one of the loudest voiced urging some type of auchozity

and approval in the Attorney General, not only of oues but

other agencies.

Ms. Murphy, All right. I only have five minuces.

Did the FBI ever get infurnacion that. the IRS was

conducting schools on wiretapping?

Mr. Adams. I don't recall whather we had any such

specitie information.

Me. Murphy, We bad a former U.S. Atcorney General tell

us that he acnowledged that the IRs was conquoting informal

schools on wiretap. They bought the equipment and tire

Directoz of the IRS came in and told the agents, "If you get

caught, y0n ace on your own but if you bring in good

information, we will make a scrong case out of it."

Are you possessed of that infomation?

MI. Adams. NO, SiT.

That would be IRS and not the

20

22

22

23

FB]..

Mc. Musphy. This was a

former U.S. Attorney General

who was in charge of your departuent.

Nr. Adams. Any wiretaps requested today, security or

under Title III Of the Onnibus Crime Control Act would require

25

WW 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 36

---

## Page 37

4146

3

'5

8

10

12

14

19

18

89

........mi

21

22.

23

24,

25

the approval of the Attorney General.

Bisc, Murphy. It is interesting thac you bring up thac

Act. There is a Title XIT tO that lot and this Administration

and the last Administration have totally ignored Title XII to

that Aot. That title requires the Attorney General, the

Director of che FBI, and all the agencies that we, the

congress, gavo, antraordinasy powers to - entries into hones.

special grand juries . they were to convene a special panel

to sae how these laws were working and if there vere abuses.

Since tha? law has been on the books, Title kit has never been

acted on.

The Speaker of the House has appointed his designates.

four wenbers of the House, to this Commission, the Presidents

of the senate has agpointed three

Members of she Senate to

that Commission.

The lasi two Administrations have never

commenced with that Commission.

Mx. Adams. The wiretapping commission?

Mr. Murphy, This is Iitle KII of the Omnibus Street

Crine Act. It has nothing to do with the wiretapping

commission. Title XIt has

never been implemented. i find

that awiul strange when Title XII required it.

That is what Chairman Emanuel Celler extracted from the

polico agencies of the Federal

Government for passage of that

bill.

We gave you people extraordinary powers. Yet the

Speaker of the House has appointed is Members and so has the

HW 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 37

---

## Page 38

3

6

8

18.

18

$5

86

17

18

59

22

21

- 22.

23

25

4347

President of the Senate and the President has never appointed

public menbers or the chairman. they have cone up and talked

about it before the Appropriations Cormittee but chat panel

has never been implenented.

Ms. Adams. it is my understanding that the Commission.

which was instituted eariler this year was in furtherance

of Picle XII. I way be mistaken but ic is reprosentacive on

both souses of Congress and does have Presidential appointees

and we have been appearing bofore that Commission.

Chairmas Pike.

ar. freen.

Mc. Treed.

Mr. Chairmans

I ask to reserve my time.

Chairman Pike.

Hit. Kasten.

Mr. Fasten. Thank you, MI. Chairman.

Mr. Wannall, how many years have you or the TBI been

keeping tha Socialist Workers Party under surveillance, for how

many years?

Mr. Wannall. We have been investigating the Party, I

would say, since 1940, since about 1940-

Nc.. Fasten. Since 1945, how many violations of law have

you in this surveillance discoverad?

1x. Wannall. The only ones of which I am familiar are

the ones that have been addressed earlier today.

Mi. Kasten. If my understanding is correci, those were

priOr tO 1915. In the last 30' years how many violations or

law have you through this investigation discovered?

NW 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 38

---

## Page 39

Taw?

4148

".

5

8

Mr. Wannall. I can recall. none at this time.

Mt. Kasten. For how many years have you kept the

Institute of Policy Studies under surveillance?

Mr. Waanall. He had an investigation on it which I think

74

war opened in 1968 and closed in eacly 1978.

Mc. Rasten. So foi a total of 5-1/2 years, how nany

violationa of lay were discovered by your agents during that

time?

10

11

18

13

14

10

16

18

19

20

28

_222.

23

24

25

Mr: Wannall. I have no knowledge of any suck

violations.

Mr. Kasten. What about the cost of these kinds of

operations, 30 years with the Socialist Workers

Party; 5-1/2

years wich the Institute for Policy Studles.

He have the

material here of 5-1/2 years of studies

for the Institute

polloy Studies.

How many agents were involved in this?

Ms. Wannali.

I cannot give you an estimate of agents.

Mr. Kaster. Or Informants?

Mr. Warnall. I would like to say to you that our

investigations in the internal security or domestic intelligende

area, as Mr. Adans indicated in his opening statement, are

not devoted entirely to the collection of evidence with regard

to possible violacions of the law. There is an intelligence

function shich se do perfomi.

Mr: Rasten. Through your 5-1/2 years of study and

surveillance of the Institute of Policy Studies, whai

Nw 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 39

---

## Page 40

10

13

33

IS

16

18

^19

20

22

23

2:8

25

$149

particular pieces of intelligence did you find that would be

valuable io our country?

ME. Wannall. I have some examples here. Would you

Care

For me to include those in the recora?

Mr. Rasten. Could you briefly summarize?

Pir. Wannall. Yes. I have been reminded that some of

the infomation ve have here is of a classified nature and

also there is litigation involving the FBI and the Institute

of Policy Studies.

Mr. Kasten. Could you quickly just summarize it as to

the sype of information that is there? If you would prefez

not to, that would be all right, ico.

Ms. Wannall. I will be happy io summarize it, but I

request that it be considered in executive session.

Nt. Kasten. All right.

How many people were involved in the invastigation or

the surveillance of the Instituce of Policy Studies over that

5-1/2 year period?

Ms. Wannall. Are you able to give any estimate on that?

lic. Shackelford.

I would puc it in the vicinity of

two or three at the nost.

ME. Rascen.

Two to three people? How many informers

would be involved? In other words, in order to get all this

information, it all cane through two or three people?

Nt. Wannall. I will ask MI. Schackelford if you don't

NW 51980 DocId: 32989727 Page 40

---

## Page 41

4150

3

..t..

10

81

82.

12

14

15

16

mind, who had direct suparvisory responsibilicies on the case

to attempt to give you an estimate on that.

Nr. Shackelford. I think you would have a situation

where the case would be assigned to one agent along with a

120' ax of othes case matters.

At one time or another he may

have another agent helping, another agent. may contaci a source

of intormation he has. But I doubt that any one agent would

devote his full time and actencion to a particular case such

as thai.

N5. Kasten. Our information shows that you have eight

agents and that you have ai leasi 52 informants. Is that

simply incorreci?

Me. Shacitelforà. ¿ vould say it would have to be.

may have had eight different agents at different times handling

that case.

I am speaking in terns of a continuing pattern

of activity.

You would not have had eight agents assigned

to it.

18

19

20

21

22

23

225,

25

Mr. Rasten.

What about the 52 informants?

Me. Shackelfox&.

that does not sound proper. I don't

think so.

Me. Kasten. How much would an informant cost?

lix. Shackelford. I would not have any way of answering

any question like that.

Mr. Kasten. About $100,'$500, about $1,000?

MI. shackelford. I would not attempt to answer that

WH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 41

---

## Page 42

4151

2.

5

10

12

13

15

10

17

38

19

20

. 22

23

25

question.

Mc. Fasten. What I am trying io determine is how much

that. 5-1/2 years cost the caxpayers. Eow much money that is

thai particular operation, the invastigation of the Institute

u1 Polloy Studies, cost the United States taxpayer?

Mr. Shaciselford. Wa don't have figures put together

anster a quescion like that. I could not ansver that

question accurately or even estimate ii.

Me.. Kaston.

$5,000, $10,000, hurdreds of thousani of

dollars?

Mr. Shackelford. I would not attempt to answer that

question.

MI. Raster, is. Choirman, my tire is up.

Chaiman Pike.

the gentlenan's tine has expired.

ME. Milford.

Hi. Milford, Thank you,

Nix. Chaisnan

Mr. Adams, it is time to bring some of the matiers we

are discussing into another perspective rather than looking

at then in linbo. Civil rights have two different

perspectives that should be considered. There have been

numerous press and public adverse criticisms again the YBI

and the seczei Service for their failure to locate and detain

individuals who have secantly allegealy threatened the life

• of the President of the uniced States.

Isn'' it a fact, sis, that discovery of thesa individuals

HH 54980

DocId:32989727 Page 42

---

## Page 43

Copeland

Follows

Rudolph

21:05

11/18/75

4256

5

10

11

12

+ **

14

15

.16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Mr. Adams: Well, what we are seeking is io obtain a

proper balance, and li is a purpose, I think, that these hear

ings do provide, as well as the hearings in the Senate, that

ve do have to balance the interest of the couniry and try to

satisfy the overall incerests of the Uriced States coupled with

the least intrusion possible into the rights of che individnal.

It is true chere are twenty chouserd people a year murderes

in the United States, and there ace all sorts of brutal crimes

of violence iating piace, and ic times va sometimes wonder who

is the enemy. Are we establishing nore rescrictive safeguarãs

against the law enfoscement agencies to make sure that we don't

repeat abuses nich have taken place in the past, or are we

giving equal concern to the rights of the individuals that are

viotims of the crime. Is the public afraid of us or the

• fact

that they can't walk the strests, at night; they can'e enjoy the

parks, engage in business without being vickins of crime.

That is why guidelines wich congress will derive ouc of

hearings such as this will give us a more clear shot ai what

our role is supposed to be in this area.

Chairman Pike. Ax. Hayes........

Mc. Eayes. Me. Milford would like me to yield a half a

minute, and I will be glad to do it...

Mr. Milford. I wanted

to finalize in this particular

colloquy by stating that violations of civil righes is a

relative matter so far as I am concerned. It would appear that

25

w DocId: DocId:32989727 Page 43

---

## Page 44

415%

7

₴

11

52

13

84

15

i6

17

18

19

20

21

32.

25

:

25

this nati

has a choise.

se can vio

te a few civil sights

to apprehend a few violators

of our law or allow millions of

our cicizens' civil rights to be violated.

I feel this is a perspective that should be considered as

we go through this.

Thank you for yielding.

lis. Hayes. Mi. Alams, the develoyment of confidential

informonts, I thint, was che of tha tasks, you outlined to

Mr. Milford.

.. :...

Do you think that the fBi has a problem when among those

developments that they have conjured, va find Jack Ruby and

Sara Jane Moore? Do you think there night be something wrong

with the developnent techniques in the FBI?.

It, raans. I don't think thore in anything wrong with

the development technique.. It is such that me develop

individuals, try to verify the informacion they furnish; wa

try to ensure their stability. he are dealing with human

beings, and when you deal with human beings, they, don't always

go according to plan.

. ...

Mt. Hayes. Fron your experience and your carrying out of

your particular responsibilities with the rBI,. would you say

that there is sonething that happens to the stability of the

Rubys and the Moores in the course of being confidential

informants? In other

words, you have ensured their stability

and something cracks them later on.

• .

NN 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 41

---

## Page 45

4158

2

3

5

G

8

10

12

13

14

i5

16

38

19

20

21•

22.

* 23

25

Mr.

This happens.: I WOUI

like to make a point

that Mir. Ruby was not an informant of the fBi.

We are hung

up on an issue on thai point, but he was contacted on nine

occasions, which we did duly report to the Warren Conmission,

for the purpose of furnishing information, because we thought

he would be in a position to furkish sich, but all of the

reccids show that on none of, chose occasions did he ever

furnish any information.

So he was being contacted as a potential in that regara,

buc actually va were correct. in saying he was not an actual

informant.

...

Sut chings do happen to informants chat we try to guarantee,

we try to ensure, and we constantly renind them not to engage

in excesses, not to sonmit illegal accs.

Mir. Hayes. What happens that & Sara Jane Moore kind of

gets away fron all of chat care and affection?

Mx. Adams. You are dealing with people and -

Mr. Hayes. Just ordinary, folks?.

Mx. Adans. Right; and in the criminal field the informanti

you develop are not recruited from the Sunday schools. They

are recruited from individuals who have knowledge of criminal

activity, and they do sometimas presen: personality problems.

But over the years informants are the backbone of obtaining

information today. Last year, over 5,000 fugitives, FBI:

fugitives, were apprehended, and as a result of informants.

HH 51980

DocId: 32989727 Page 15

---

## Page 46

4159

5

13

**

18

883

85:

16

17

39

19

20

21

22.

23

21

25

Anocher thousand of subjects were arrested in cases as a

resulc of informants' information.. Over $86 million in contra-

band and stolen property was secovered through informants.

Information furnishad the local police depariments resulced in

another sir thousand fugicives or subjacts being arrested.

They are valuable. They are essential.

Mr. Hayes. Nc. Adans, on page 11 of your testimony, che

riddle paragraph is a call to awareness to us, I assume, be

cause the second sentence begins, "You should also be aware,

however, there

are others who, nave as their ultimate goal the

overthrou of our political insticutions aná econcmic systems."

Then you go on to make a quote that some of these just

don't like the use of sone cercorist techniques at this

point; they think they are counter-productive.

But they

haven't renounced anything.

Does that mean that the FBI will. through its polloy

formation

and activities, continue to watch these pecple to see

hi they do sometime change their mind in the future about how

they would like to bring about economis and political dif

ferences in this country?

Mx. Adans.

res, sir; ve feel when an organization states

maybe perhaps publicly, don't engage, in violence, but yec che

organization also states co its members and has as a program

that we don't want to do anyching that might be counter

productive, wait until the time is right to try to overthrow

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 46

---

## Page 47

10

.

12

t3

15

18

89

20

21

27

"23

224

25

4160

the government, ve feel that wa have to monitor the activities

of that organization to be on top of the situation when they

do determine that because of, say, a hostile attack on the

United states by the soviet Union, or some other foreign coun

try, chai this group at that time will say, now is the time.

It wasn't productive to engage in an acc to overthrow the

government. and stom tha capital in 1975, but in 1977, if the

aime is right, we will act,. and those are the groups that we

find no way of ignoring and also discharging our responsibili

ties in comection with providing the necessary domestic

intelligence to the President:. the Attorney General, the Execu-

tive Branch, in order to make chess decisions they are required

to make.

Chaizman Pike. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mt. Johnson.

Ms. fohnson. Thank you, Mr,., Chairman.

Mr. Adams, I am an ez-District Attorney, and I have

probably experienced the sane kind of frustracions you have

in crying to deal with crimes that have been commitied in the

context of Supreme Court decisions that seem to law enforcers

sometimes not to make a shole lot of sense.. So I can sympa

thize and conniserate with you with the aspects of honest-to

God crime, so I will defend you from that point of view.

But when you start talking, about the lori laton case,

the Canden, New versay entrapment case, then I don't think that

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 47

---

## Page 48

4161

3

Di

5

6

10

12

13

14

15

16

18

19

20

22

23

25

you hare say justicication for chet kind of accivity.

And it seens to m that, there may ho an atticide on you.

pert - and I voulé liho to have you samant on this - par

ticalarly with coapact te sha socialisi. Horsers Party, that

membarship autonatically moans advocary of revolution even

though the indivional night not advocuts revolution.

In othes words, you have said for, tainty years you have

followad chose people.

Thors has hoon so conviosions in tha

lant charty yoars. Oblonely. In they were advocating revolu

tion and you vere following them, you would have acne convie-

tians, but you continus to folles than bacause you think shey

are advocating it and that dosan'" mate any sense. My de you

stay after thez ii we don's have any. convistions, uny evidence

chai Trii rosule in conviction.

"• =

I man understand an investigation for & short persed of

time and then titudra, buca thiny year investigation does

that rake sense to you?

- 4

II. Adams. Hell, ve have no evidence of a statutory viola

tion of ano of the crimes of sedition, insucreation, rebellion.

Ñoão have an incelligence function to pertorm 16 & group 1s

saying an beliering and prncticing, & tolies that when sie time

Is right, unan we can combine our cotivity with ochor activities

such as an attack on the United Stateg

Mr. johnson. fre sley advocating an overthrow of the

governent? It chey are, ii in a violation of ino law aod

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 48

---

## Page 49

4362

?

3

6

10

38

12

14.

15

16

57

18

-

20

21

22

24

25

subject to penalty.

Mr: Adams.

Getting into questions of-the smich Act,

advocary pi the overchion of, the goveriment and the court

deci..

sions rendered interpreting it, the statute is still on the

books.

It is a valla statute, but tho purpose and the inter

precacions os certain provisions do reruire far more than

mere advocacy.

they get into questions of imminency, and

actual overt acts. set when people knowingly belong to an

organization which says, when the time is right, we are going

to serike, and they never deviate from this policy, and they

wori towarde it, ii Congress. feels thai we should not investi

gate that organization, out of these deliberacions I am sure wé

will get a mandate that it is not necessacy to follow this

type of an organization.

But under the Presidential, directives, and the interpreta-

tions of the Attorey General,, ve have the lawful authority to

conduct these intelligence investigacions, and chis is what

guidelines will result, I a sure, it ve should not investigate

people that say ve are going to do something at a given time;

when that cime comes, we should wait until it happens. Even

the Suprene Courc has said you don't have to wait until

Mr. Johnson. It seems to me you are searching after a

straw man. Maybe you aren'"..

How old was this little girl when she writes to the

socialist workers Party for informacion?

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 49

---

## Page 50

10

18:

28

$5

16

:

18

19.

20

21

22.

23

242

25

4163

Ms. Adams.

I don't want to, gei into the lawsuit exactly,

but basically what chis boils down to is we had a mail cover

on the Socialist Workers Party, a lawful mail cover provided

Ior in the poscal

regalations..

In reviewing

the outside of the envelope, the lost office

Furnished us the nome and address of this person writing we

don"t know whose vriting - to the Socialist Workers Party.

An investigation was opened to determine. They checked, find

out she is a school student:, thay close the case. No further

investigation was

conducted,. but should we have stopped and

never detemined, vell, is this a legicinate contact or a 308-

legitimate contact - 10, 1i stepped right there.

Mr. Johnson. It stopped right mares.

Mix. Adams.

At the point where it was decesmined that

this was a high school student writing to che Socialisi Workers

Party.

From that point on, it is evidently.

Mi. Johnson. It stopped right ai thac high-sonool level?

Mr. Adams. Right; wa did not continue an investigation

of her to follow her activities, determine her bellets and

faiths. It was stopped right there..

On the encrapment sicuation ...

Mc. Johnson. I would like to know how long did that take

and 15 the Chairman will inqulge me, ve can go on io the

entrapment sicuation, since my time is y.

How long did that take to establisit that with respect to

H4 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 50

---

## Page 51

4164

B

10

11

12.

13

15

16

18

10

20

.22

• 24.

2256

Miss Paton?

Mc. Adams.

Perhaps we have the time linit here and would

be glad to give it io you...

Mir. Johnson. Then, wich the Chairmans permission, would

you go on to the entrapment?

Chaiman Pike. You nay respond to the encrapment.

Vis. Adams. While he is looking, entrapment is a very

difficult legal quescion, but fion our standpoint and from the

law, when an Individual, as in this case, comes in and says he

has been asked to participate in activities against the drafc

boards of an illagal nature -- we didn't contact him; we didn't

direct him. He came to ss voluntarily.

Me. Johnson.

Have you seen his statenents?

ME. Adams. NO, I haven't. I haven't been provided any

stacements.

Mr- Johnsor. I suggest sonebody he here this afteroon,

because when that

statenent is made public, you may. want to

refute it.

Chairman Pike. All of the statenents will be made avail-

able. I thought they had been made available, and you certainly

should have them, Mr. Adans.

Mr. Adams. There is going. to be testimony scheduled on

this at a later date involving our agent tho actually handled

the informant. I am not familiar with all the details, but

in public session this will be fully explored, but in

I 54980 DocId-32989727 Paule 51

---

## Page 52

4165

8

22

12.

13

84

35

16

77

18

entrapment you are in i situation where it you don't induce

someone to go out and connit

an ast he was not otherwise intend

ing to do, prepared to do, or

willing to do legally, it is

not entrapmenc, and we have lost lausuits bafore on informancs.

whether it did constitute entrapment, but i woulá like to gec

on the record a statement that we don't use agent provocateurs,

ve don't tolerate inducing a person to connit a crime who would

soè ocherwine do it, but if he is willing ie do it, the law

says we can provide him the oppostunicy....

And we consult daily wich United States Attorneys on this

because we foal it is a legal question and wa want to abide by

the lay as much as wa can.

Chairman Pike. MI. Johnson's time has amired, but are you

able so answer the ocher half on the question he asked earlier.

about how long it took to determine this high-school student

ME. Adams •

We don't have it here, but we will be glad co

make it available to the conmittee...

(The information is to be supplied.)...

20

22

23

24

25

NH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 52

---

## Page 53

4165

5

10

12

13

14

15

16

18

19

20

21

.22

22

25

Chairuan Pike. Mr. Lehman,

Me. Letan.

Than's you, Mr.. Chairman.

In 1972, as Chairman of ine Dade County School Board, I

was included as pari of a lind of leadership coalition to deal

with and perhaps prevent any. kind of violence that we, had

anticipated at the Republican Convention, especially on the

beach that year, and in our conversationg with the public

safety people from the beach and from ine county, wa at that

time were more concerned with provocateurs

leading the siolence

and causing the violence than accually the people in the

various organizations that many people thought would be the

problems.

.. ...

One of the indications was that sone aintgistrativa paople

or something was going on that would do the kind of provocateur

work chat vould turn public opixion strongly. against anti-mar

groups, especially the group such as the Viet Nam Veterans

Against the War.

Actually. the Viet, Kum Veterans seemed, 1o

bo at that time on the beach ong of the primary. targets to

focus anti-public opinion.

...

Not related to the beach, but I have heard from reliable

sources that in she VAW that in New Orleans most of the people

In that chapter were people on the FBI payrolls.

Now the Florida chapter of the VAl In Gainesville was

certainly a major target, and this resulted in the wall-

known trial of the Gainesville Eight,. and according to the

WH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 53

---

## Page 54

416%

9

..đ8

12

18

85

16

trial infornation, the chief goverrment witness. was

; an agent

provocateur and

apparently the jury fouad out that the

provocateur was the source of most of the probiems. and not

the Gainesville Eight, which resulted, of course, in finding

chen not guilty.

Now my problem is I have i0 guarcel wich informers, but I

do have a problem with the possible use of provocateurs, which

are certainly counter-productive. and " would like to ask two

questiona.

The question I would like to ask is, you mentioned before

that you do not use them, but from the infozuation I have

there has been use of provocateurs in different federal agenciel,

and I would like to know whether you have used them and whethex

you are continuing to use them. ande. 16 so. I would like some

ching in this final report of this Connitice that would condemn

the use of provocateurs and to make the necessary legislation

so prevent the further use of provocateurs..

My question to you is, did you use them, and do you use

them?

18

39

20

21

222

23

20

2.5

Mis. - Adams.

1o, sir; it has never been a policy of the FBI

to use provocateurs. We do use

infesmants.. We don't use then

coday. I would have no objection to this Cormittee going

strongly on record in thai rogard, because. it coincides with

our policy.

Mr. Lohman. Mould the gentleman yield? What would you

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 54

---

## Page 55

2

)

10

11

12

13

$5

16

17

18

19

20

21

23.

23

24

25

4168

call the chief government witness at the Cainesville trial?

Would you call him an infosner, or what?

Mr. Adams. I believe, and I an calling on this fron

recollection, but I bolieve the goverment's position in that

was that be was not a provocateus, and i think it was a factual

situation, and mere you do gec into these,. that is what

justes are for, but in cur view, ve did not use him in an

agent provocateus relacionship, to my inowledge.

Kr. Lehman. Thank you, Mrs. Adems.. I Yield back the ast

of my time.

Charan Pike. Me. Treen....

..

MI, rreen. I vould llke to riel co minutes to Me. Rasten

and two minutes so the Chair, and reserve one minute until

alter Mr. Field's questione.

Chairman Pike. Mi. Fasten.....

Mr. Kasten. Than's you, Mc.. Chairman.

I want to follow up

on a question Ns. johnoon had.. It seens that the testimony of

hore Paton indicates that in February of 1973 you originally

began … and she is sitting right hese in the room . and

¿i wasn't until July that you, according to a letter we have

From Juage Wallase Ia Prade,. that you vere still working on it,

so it took you from february. until Juls to say whether or not

this person was a high-achool student.

The letter reads: "After, carefully reviewing the facts

In this natter, I have concluded there was no proprietary .

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 55

---

## Page 56

4169

10

18

18

39

14

15

16

17

38

19

20

21

22

23

26,

25

You may be assured Miss Paton is not the subject of investiga

tion. you deny net celera a … you were even involved

wich her."

What is the fack here? does ii take you fren February

until July to find out whether she is & student or not, ad

you deny you even had a mail cover on hes.

ke. idans. We did not have a mail cover on her, but on

the Socialist Workers Party. Her name came to our atiention

ther

througi: that. We did not investigate her in the sease of

going out and conducting

neighbochoed inquities and asking

people what do you knox about. Miss Paton.

Mr. Kasten, How can it care you sis months to find out

whether this parson was & high-school student in New jersey?

Me. Adams. I would have to loon at the particular file,

Jui I would also like to suare

se. don't have one case per

one ageni and when a violation or quescion comes io our atter

tion, a matter within our jurisdiccion. that an agent starts

out of the door handling that.. Each agent in the Eat carries

about thirty to thirty-five investigative malcers at any one

time, and they are handled in ordess of priority.

So what the actual time limic vas. I would have to refex

to the file. I vould he glad'to mare ii available to the

Conmittee subsequently, but we jusc don't have people waiting.

and this is the only case you have, you go out and handle it.

Thank You, Mi.. Chaizuan.

IN 54980 DocId:32989727

Page 56

---

## Page 57

4170

1

2

4

30

18

18

13

14

$5

16

19

20

21

23

225

Chairman Pike.

Thank you., Mt.. Treen, I appreciate your

violding a couple oi minutes to me.

Mr. Adams, I vant to get back to this report in which

I have a particular intereat, because it involves my ora

oftice, In this seport Ron Jonnson was, ached to call Marcus

Raskin and did so on 1/26/12. I didn'c read all of it. I am

going to read some more of it now.

"Rassia was expected to

return the call when he returned to IPS."

Nor to me that sounds like, telephone calls, buc I don't

know, and I do ask you to check exactly how thai report got

into this file.

Now I read, further:

"Infornation copies of

this repore are

bainy designated fox, Atlante,, Boston and San

Francisco, inasmuch as those officas each have offshcor

institutes in their territories and since this report under

the IPS attack on the FBI."

Now. I am sorc of interested vior I become a part of

report alleging as attack by. the IPS. on the FBI.

I know what the FBI, was doing to the teS, but would you

tell me what the nature was of the attack by the IPS in which

I am somehow involved, on the FEI?

Mi. Adams. First, fron the reading as you gave it to me,

there doesn't appear to be any allegation that you vere part

of any attack on the FBI.

Chairman Pike. Well, what is the nature of the attack

by the IPS on the FBI?

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 57

---

## Page 58

4171

Mr. Adams. Could I consult wich one of the gentlemen who

3

may kaow?

• He is unable to be of assiscance in that regazd. I

would have to check and see thai that parcicular statement was

referring co.

Chaiman Pike. I yield back Mc.. Treen his renaining

time.

10.

21

33

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

21

25

Mc. Iceen.

I would like to reserve the last minute until

after Mr.. Field's questions.

• Chalman Pike.

Fine.

fix. Field?

Mr. Field. Thank you, Me. Chairman,

Mr. Wannall, I would like to ask you a few questions, and

I would like to begin with some of the statements nace in

Mr. Adans: opening statement.

In the opening statement he refess to instruezions

issued by President Roosevelt in 193%. He refers- to 1936

inscruotions conceining the activities of che Fascisn and

Connunism, wich a capital "C".. He refers to & 1938 approval

by President Roosavelt of a Hoover Plan.

He refers to a

Presidential directive dated in 1939. And he goes on in that

tone.

..

In your view, have the subversive threats to the United

States, and your authoricy for investigating them, changed

• since the wartime climate of the 1940's? Have they changed in

che lasi quarter of a century?

IN 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 58

---

## Page 59

41.72

1

%

5

6

$

$!

12

14

13

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

25

Mi. Wannall. Yes,

siz; in my view they have.

Mr. Elold. Do you think that the FBi should have a

policical philosophy?

Ms. Wennall. ¿ don't think the iDi does have a political

philosophy.

. .

1r. rielê. You don'¿ hava a political pallosophy. so,

in ocher words, your rationale for invescigating the Socialist

Workers Party would be based either upon some violacion of

law or upon sons threat to the united States.

Hould that be

correct?

Ms. Hannall. Or for the incelligence needs of roe

Executiva, yes, sir.

Ms. Fields And che

Icelligence needs would be based

upon a threat to che united States; is that noc correct?

Nt. Wannall. A potential threat, I would say.

Mr. Field. A potential chceac to the Uniced States.

In thirty years you have never. Lound a violation of any

redaral law by the Socialiat Woriers whom you have susveilled

artensively. Could you say the sane about the Republican and

Democratic Parcles?

Mr. Wannall. May I, in ansves to your question, quoce fron

a special insuo of the "International Socialtst Review"!

daced November 7, 1975, This is a monthly magazine supplement

to the "Milltant", which is the official soclalist workers

Party nowspapar, and this special issue is devoted to a single

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 59

---

## Page 60

. 5

8

9

•10

88

12

13.

14

15

16

18

19

20

28

3222

23

24

25

4173

docurent, a resolution approved by the 26th Nacional Convention

of the Socialist Workers Party, entitled "The Decline of

American Capitalism, Prospecis for a Socialist Revolution".

It includes the following stacements of the Socialist

Workers Party policy: "the world crisis of capitalisa doas

n0t

favor extensive and effeccive long-tern capitalism reforn in

the United States but developnent of the requisites for a

revolution."

That is at page 5, paragraph J.

Mr. Field. Mi. Wannall, are you aware revolution can

take place in nonviolent ways?. Are you aware that the

Socialist Workers Party has never arvocated a violeni revolu

tion and vitnesses will, testify to that this ascernoon?

You were unresponsive to the quastion, which was.

have

you such a record with respect to the Repunlican and Democratic

Parties?

Mx. Wannall. No, sir.

. . .

Mr. Fiold. Are you aware that the violations of law that

you cited back in 1941 were declared unconstitutional, the

portions of the Smith

act which you prosecuted socialist

worisers on, were declared unconstitutional subsequently?

Mr. Wannall. There were portions of it in 1969 in the

Ohio case which were declared to be unconstitutional.

Ni. Field. And the Suprone Court upheld that?

Mx. Wannall. That is correct.

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 60

---

## Page 61

€

&

23

.. 38

13

84

10

777

18

29

21

28

23

272

23

4174

Mr. Field. Mr. Adame cited that as one of the bases on

which we continue to surveil them, because even though there

may lot be any specific statuce any more, there had been viola

ions of the snith Act. Is. chat corcect?.

Mr. Wannali. le raised that, question with the Department

of Justica and in Norenbes of 1974 wichin the past year, ve

were advised that the snith Act of portions of it have been

declared ve

Mr. Fiold. Mr. Adams spectfically said something to the

effect whereas they had not caken any positive steps

Me. Wannall. Hould you repeas your question, please?

Me. Field. Mr. Adans said songthing to the effect whereas

they had takes no overt acts to violently overthrow the govern-

ment of the united states, that the aâvocasy of these which had

been a basis of the snith Act violaiions were the reason why

you were continuing to survail.

You are concinuing to surveil on something scat has now

been declared unconstitutional.. Is that correct?

Mr. Wannall. No, Sir, it is not sorrect.

Me. Field.. Why ace you continuing co surveil?

Ex. Wannall. The Smith Ack.. I all lts parts, nas not

been declared unconsticutional. .

Nir. Exeld. The pact you refer to and the part that

refers only io the nonactivity, advocady of views, has been

declared unconsticutional. Is that the basis on which you

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 61

---

## Page 62

4175

•3

8

10

18

52.

surveil this party?

Mc. Wannail. No,

sit.

Ar. rield. On what basis do you surveil it?

Mr. Wannall. On the basis of the activity in which it

is engaged.

Ms. Field. Has li engaged in any vioient activities or

advocated violent activicies, not the word revolution?

No. Wannall. Not violent.,.

Mr. Field. Thank you, Mr.: Chairman.

Chairman Pike. Mr. Freel,...

Ec. Treet. I think I have just one minute.

let me ask you this, sir:.. Do any of you have information

that either the National Republican or Nacional Democracie

Parties have ever advocated the violent overchrow of the

United Stares Governnent?

Fir. Harnall. No, sir.

Nx. Treen. What is the status of morale within the FBI

today as compared to, let's, say, five, years ago and ten years

ago?

14

$5

86

17

18

19

20

28

22

20

24

25

Mr, Adams. I think morale in the FBi over the years has

beer fairly high. There have been highs and lows, of course,

but based on my contact wich fBI employees, I chink wa gen-

erally run a fairly high norale in the rBi..

Mr. Treen. Is thai true today?

Me, Adams.

Yes, sit.

...

NH 54980

DocId:32989727

Page 62

---

## Page 63

43.76

€

10

14

16

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ME. Treen.

ment of agents?

Are you having any diftienlcies with recruit-

-..

Mir. Adans. Absolutely nois, Only in certain areas. Over

all, we have more applicants than we can possibly consider.

Mr. Ireer.

What areas are you having disticulcy in?

MEo• Adans-

We still have difficulcy recruiting in the

minorities, Blacks, Spanish-speaking, and nonen. Those are

the only caregories we encounter, diffionlty in recruicing.

ME. Treeha

Thank you. that is all.

Chairman File. Thank you, gentlene. I realize that

some of the questioning today ras sort of adversary in nacure,

but I can only say shas we tend to be adversary. in nature with

paople vinom we agree with as. wall as with people whom we dis

agree wich cometimes, and I do reiterate ny request that some-

one ba available, and I would particularly request, I tnink.

ME, Wannall to be available for rebuttal lator on or for addi

zional questions later on, because we me now going to some

other witnesses, and I thanks, you very nuch for your tessimony.

Our next witness sill be a former FBi, agent, Mix. Archur

Murtagh, and, Mr. Murtagh, when the present witresses have

vacated the table, I would appreciate li l you vould go up and

take the kable.

Just far the benefic of the members of the Committee,

aftor Mc. Murcagh, our nect witness will be ir. Hardy, a former

FBI informant.

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 63

---

## Page 64

4177

2.

3

5

&

7

9

10

12

$4

15

16

17

88

19

20

21

22.

!

• 84

25

Go ahead, Mr. Murtagh, and we thank you for your presence

here today.

STATERENE OF ARIHUR MURTAGH.,. RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT

MI. Hurtagh. ME. Chaiman and Menners of the Committee:

I welcome this opportunity to testlly before you as a retired

special agent of the FBI who loyally sered the Bureau foc

twenty years and who was assigned to the FBI's Internal

Security Intelligence squad In Atlanta for ten years, from 1960

approximacely until 1971. I would hopu i could give thir

Committee insight into the Bureau's intelligence practices not

from the theorecical vievpoint of a policy maker but from the

pracrical vienpoint of a field agent....

the inrusi of my comments. will be to attempt to have you

see thai it is possibla for the structure of an organization

such as the bureau to be responsible fur much wronggoing

without any measurable culpability on the part of individuals

working in the lower levels of the organization. For example,

I was at one time asked to obtain through my informants

handuriting samples of a gentleman who is now a member of your

body, the Eonorable Andrew Young of Atlanta.. I was also asked

to obtain handwriting samples of several of his associates

In

DI. Martin Luther King's Southern Christian Leadership

Conference. I was an agent with a lot of experience at the

time this request came to me from my superior.. I was aware

thac the manner in which the request was made was such that

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 61

---

## Page 65

4178

7

10

1G

17

10

29

20

21

22

23

24

25

the information was to be used for one af the illegal purposes

of the bureau.

the request was made after, regular working hours orally

to me in private. I turned to my supervisor who was known

among the agents as "Colonel Klink" and told him that I flatly

refused to comply with his request and that he could tell his

counterpart at the Buceau

sho, had called him on the watchiine

seeking the informacion that. & knew dam vell it was going

be usil in an unrecorded counterintelligence operacion to

descroy Ni. Young's chances, of getting alected to the House of

Representasives.

The request came oniy a fer days after

Mt. Young had announced that he was seeking a seat in the fouse.

My eupervisor's reaccion vas.

"Row don't get excited.

Art, we wili make some other arrangenent."

.. And. " responded,

•I suppose you will. And I cold him chai le hia coustespast

at the Bureau wanted to force the issue, we would do it in

the open with lots of pablicity. That was the last I heard of

thai reguest icon my supervisos,, and I noticed later that

Mr. Young made it to your august body so I must assume that

my supervisor had no other source ai that time chat could get

the infomation for him. You, of course, will find no record

of the above incident in the bureau files.

I am cognizant of your mandate to investigate the intelli-

gence

operations of the Bureau and of the great mass of

information inat has already been uncovered regarding these

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 65

---

## Page 66

4179

rs.

3

5

10

11

18

19

15

16

-17

18

20

22

23

:

255

operations.

I believe, however, that a clear, precise

picture of the Bureau's intelligence praccicas can only be

seen

by analyzing the Administrative structure, the entrenched

biases and the pesvasive indocicinated FBI mentality that

command and control their intelligence practices.

In the incident involving. Hepresentative Andrew Young, is

the same request bad been nade to most agents who had reached

the level in the Bureas that I was at chas time, and wich most

of the agents I came in contact, with during the period chat

the loung incident cook place, for that matter, they would

have coucinely complied with their suparvitor's request,

simply because they would have gone through a process which

would have eliminated all those who saw anything wrong with

the type of activity contemplated by their, supervisor.

The oft-tines expressed feelings of all of the parsonnel vork-

ing in conjunction with me on the intelligence squad in

Aclanta during the period

that the Young incident too place

accounts for the fact that the information requesced would

have been routinely obtained. The feeling was that the racial

movaments in which Me. Young was engaged, although not illegal

per se, was inimicable to the value standaris that the squad

members subscribed to.

If it took a little illegal activity

to compromise the movement, then so be it... Past experience

had made it clear to all agents that Mi. Hoover had no sympathy

with any racial novement.

...

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 66

---

## Page 67

1

8

₴

12.

13

14

$5

16

37

13

210

22

23

24

25

4180

you may justly inquire at this juncture how I happened

to survive in the Bareau it thege selection processes weeded

chase in opposicion out..

The answer. was and is that I was

both stubborn and smart erough to keep my rocord good and

clear and chose azound me knew ic.. As an accorney and someone

who balieved in the zule of la. I houldn'e.conforn if it re-

quired me to be dishonest ox, to violace the law, and I knew

the law. I can sorrowfully. say that my views were not shared

by my neers universally in the Bureau. At this point, I rould

• like to interject a note that is not in the written seccion here

and say chac greas nubers of the agents that i worked with

were of the highest calibre,. fine gentionen that I have great

respect for, and ic is not with any. pleasure that i come

here

to relate to you circumstances

that. I think should be correctea.

It is wich a seated. embarrasement that I have to say that

I waS

a member of this organization for as nany years as

• I was

and was unable to come to you during that period.

And back to the transcript.. I joined the FBI as an agent

in 1952 and retired in 1971.

By 1957, the weaknesses in the structure de the Bureau

, hađ

become all too obvious to me... In 1960,, as a result of

adminiscrative action taken against me by Mr. Hoover, on

account of an alleged problen of overweight, I found myself in

& YMCA Ioch in Macon, Georgia, away from my family for a period

of about flve months. During that time, I did a great deal of

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 67

---

## Page 68

fin.

6

9

80

10

12.

13

14

15

777

iB

20

21

22

23

224

25

4181

soul-searching and reading in an effore to make a decision as

to whecher I should leave the Bureau anú atienpi to expose the

weaknesses in structure, and, I underscore structure at every

point, because it is the structure that is wrong. with the

Bureau and not the agent personnel,. whether I should empose

the weainess in the structure or stay in the Bureau and wait

for a more opportune iime when the prchability of success in

corzecting these wealmesses would be greater. I decided to

remain and obsarve, but I resolzed that I vould under no circu

stances parcicipate in any of the mathical or. illagal activi-

tiAS

that were by then so

prevalent in the Bureau

I was able to obsarve fron ny vantage point in the FBI

that the Bureau was on a collision couise, of collapse which

would result in Congressional investigation, and I said so

openly among agent associates. from 1960 onward until the time

I left the Bureau in 1971... I. counseled with many, yes,

practically all, of the agent-persorel with whom I came in

contact at this time and for the remaining eleven years that

I spent in the Bureau, and found that they were vaguely aware

in 1960 of the process of which I spoak, and they were acutely

awace of it in 1971.

The inherent administrative processes within the Bureau

which I have alluded to before, which advarsely affect the

Bureau's intelligence

functions can be summarized as follows:

Nuber one is secrecy. Mr.. Hoover threw a veil. of secrecy

| HH 51980

DocId: 32989727 Page 68

---

## Page 69

1550

4182

&

6

17

38.

89

86

18

20

20

222.

29

222

26

over the Bureau ac its very inception, though the sreat mass

of information handlod by the Bureau could-be placed on bill.-

boards in the middle of times Square and the public interest

would not block the sidewalks, bui secrecy served many useful

purposes to the Bureau.

It made it impossible for the public

or Congress to know anything. about what was going on inter

nally. It gave the Bureau, oparation an aura of mystery and

croaced a cype of fear and respect for the Bureau which I per

sonally. feel is unnoalthy in a ociety that strives to be, both

democratic and open.

Number two: Complete unfettered control of the process

of selecting personnel. Centlemen, I subnic this is the most

imporeant thing that I will say to you today. complete and

unfectered control of the process of selecting personne..

This is an area to which your Committee should direct its

greatost efforts, for it was, through a selection process eremot

Eron Civil. Service under the sole control of the Director thai

Mr. Hoover was able over' a perlod of nearly Lifty years to

bring in thousands of carefully, salected agent-pecsonnel.who

vere politically disposed to, the righi as he was and then

through a pessonnol system, which offered no possibility at all

for an agent to question Hoover's ethics os methods, to force

thousands of those selected to leave the Bureau in utter aisgust

simply because they had no avenue through which they could alr

grlevancas involving unethical or illegal conduct.. For example,

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 69

---

## Page 70

4

6

10

72

18

14

15

1G

17

18

59

243

21

22.

23

222

25

4783

and I have many, buc I will give you one, a young agent whom

I 3c20w was sent io Albany, Georgia for his First office. Fis

wife was a sociologist. She was oifezed a posicion in the

Head Start Project in Albany. Georgia that was under the diree

tion os a black accorny named hing.. I think his inicials were

A. Bo, but I know his last name was Ring: The agent reported

this infornation to his superior. in Albany.. He was immediately

amoned to tiante by the Agent in Charge and told that his

wife could not tale the job because they did not want FBI

personnel or their wives associated witk Blacks who were active

in the civil rights novenents..

this agent subsequently

resigned in disgusi.

The

third area I want you to cale note of is manipulation

and concrol of the press.

The examples of this subject are legior.

The one that

an most familiar with was the concaries effort to get what was

always

referred co in the Bureav, as "our friends in the media"

to publish personal and very private information taken from

the

wiretay which itself vas of questionable legal validity on

DI. Martin luther King. Of course, the day co-day manipulation

was

accomplished by leaking choice items to our "friends"

It was not at all unconnon. to learn of some politically

damaging information about some leading figure in politics as

having been developed by the. Bureau and then always ac a time

when it would be most damaging to the individual, the information

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 70

---

## Page 71

4184

3

Д

5

g

10

82:

13

14

•16

17

18

20

21

22

23

2A,

25

would some way show up in the Chicago 'Iribune or some other

friond of the Bureau. It the information was more valuable

Fox puzuoses of policical blacknall by holding ii, than by

giving it to the press, it was withheld. The leaked infozma

cion always seaned to involve persons of liberal persuasion.

From my years in the bureau, I can only assume that the Bureau

had deduced that persons of liberal parsuasion are somehow

apc to sleep with aomebody else's wife, drink too much

liquor, on be sexually perverted than ase solid conservatives.

The fourt point in absoluce authoricy at the cop and blind

Loyalcy at the bottom alded by. the selection process.

This question of loyalty is interesting since, of course,

we all like our friends to be loyal to us and ve respect it as

a quality in man. The Watargase hearings vere particularly

infornative on this polnt, as you all recall. Each of the

WitnesseS who

were implicated in wrong-doing in Wacergate

opened their statements with a bit on loyalty and went on io

tell eventually how in the name of loyalty they had violated

the law. The Bureau has lis, parallel in ints concept of blind

loyalty.

I might interject hare I think I saw sone of it a few

mizutes ago.

Personnel have been willing is forego their

own integrity to allow improper, unethical, or illegal activity

by the Bureau to go on unchallenged racher than injure the

Bureau by a public attack which many regard as disloyal to the

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 71

---

## Page 72

4185

20

13

14

15

16

IY

18

19

20

21.

22

-23

. 24

25

Bureau.

Nunber five is the harsh disciplinary measures, and I

understand these way have been

changed somewhat under Mr.

Kelley. The harsh disciplinacy. measures which were the hall-

mar's of Me. Hoover's personnel policy are too extonsive to

go into at lengch here. They somecimes resulted in humorous

Bicuations but very often in very cragic sicuations.

As an lilustration of that, I night say when coming down

here from northern New York, my wife bazame terribly distraught

and she turned it me and said, "Do you tnink they will take

your pension away fron you?". And I assured her, *o, honey,

they won't."

By the nid-1960's these harsh dissiplinary neasures

had

eroded confidence in Hooves among the agent personnel thas the

policy of "tell the man noching" had reached a point where

information could actually get inco the hands of Bureau super

visors, and it still would not get to hoover because the harsh-

ness of the disciplinary, action made, the integrity of all

agents very pliable.

. . .

In a denocracy, domination of a powerful organization

such as the Federal Bureau of Investigation by any segment of

the political spectrum threatens the very existence of

demoszacy.

The process results in the organization being used io aid

the policical and philosophical friends or causns of the leader

WH 51980 DocId:32989727 Page 72

1

---

## Page 73

4186

7

70

$ 8

12

14

15

16

38

19

20

21

22

23

241

25

and to neutralize any opposition.

Ex. Hoover's vendetca against Dr. Mariin luther Ring

Illustrates this process in a graphic manner...

I submit that the FEI now consticutes a degenerate

dictatorship in which the scructure still remains but from

which public support is rapidly. being withdrawn. I furcher

subnit that such a dictatosship is inompatible wich the

Constitutional. concepts upos which this nation was founded.

I feel that this can be historically paralleled wich the ascen-!

sion of ochar dictatorships chroughout the world.

I make the following reconnindationg.

I recommend that any resom which you consider deal

directly with each of the points I nentioned in the establish-

ment of the process, but I urge you to give particularly

careful attention to the process of agent selection.

In order to insure againsi re-establishment of uncontrol-

lable pover within the Bureau I would suggest the following:

seek the removal of all entrenched personnel. including the

Director, as quickly as is practical, not in a vindictive way,

but for the good of the service... These gentlemen have been

crapped into the system; they have been unculturalized; and

they cantt act differently. chan they act, but they are a

serious threat to the freedom and security of the United

States under our Constitation.

The second thing: Establish a system by which line-level

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 73

---

## Page 74

€

30

13

12

13

14

16

$7

13

20

22:

-23

• 23

4187

personnel can repori unethical or illegal activity within the

Barean to an curside control agency... Incidentally, I was

vary happy to hear fir. Adans say this morning that the Bureau

would be willing ic suomit io an outside control agency.

is only a sad thing they didn't do it twency. years ago and

we worlon"t's here today.

Although there ara some Constitutional quescions involved,

I would reccumend that the control agency be under the

judiciary, time excending the concept of checks, and balences.

and that the cine nesessary. for setting up hearings and resolv

ing difficuities be extremely shost, mayos as listle as seven

days so snat corruptive processes could aot get started.

Number thrse: That all personnel working within the

agency and all new personnel vorking within the agency be se

quired to attend instructional classes given by various educa

cional insticutions throughout the country in which the rights

and duties of Bureau employees would be thoroughly caught so

that ve would not have people like sin MoCora in the Nacezgate

aituation telling the Senate or the House in years to come

that he thought that what was obviously, illegal could be made

legal by the flick of a pen by the Attorney. General or the

Director. This concept was very. prevalent in the Bureau then

I was there. If i. Hoover evar said something, no one ever

questioned whether he was right or wrong, legal or ethical,

Illegal or otherwise. There was never anything taught in the

NH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 74

---

## Page 75

4188

2.

10

18

15

• 16

18

19

20

21•

22

*23

25

Bureau schools to equip agencs to make decisions they made in

this area.

...

Number four:, Legislate the process of agent selection in

such a way thai future personnel would represent the full

spectrun of. American society lustead of only. a narrow segment

as it now does. Either reduce the pay of agent personnel or

escabilah educational sequirements for admission that would

justify the current high-pay. scandards. I would prefer chat

the standards be made higher and leave the pay where it is.

Number five: Legisiate controls regarding the release

Information from the Bureau which will prevent the Bureau

3 Exon

using the wealth of information ii collects at government

expense as a neans of pregs. manipulation. il Quinn Martin

Produccions san examine Bureau records and produce a television

play, as they did in the Philadelphia-lississippi case, and,

Incidentally, I worked on that case at great length and I

kaor the circumstances, and they produced this cro hour movie

which was on NBC last spring, and the picture of what actually

happened dors there, from my viewpoint, was very badly dis

torted.

the novie was made in such a way as to protect the

Bureau image and procect the Bureau's relationship with the

Mississippi State Police. ...

...

And it had many things in there that I would not have put

Ile and I thins anyone of a moderate liberal persuasion would

not have put in.

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 75

---

## Page 76

4

10

11

13

16,

$5

16

18

89

20

21

72.

23

25

4189

So che

legislacion should provide if anybody can l00% at

the

Bureau records and write a book, it any special person

anybody can. tE we

are going to have a free press, let's

have Ic free

all the way, in other nords, and I think this

roscreint the Bureau has used in making the recocas available

to writers and to the pross, in a sort of cevarse or inverse

abridgmeni of the Firsi Amandment of those who veran't able to

got to Enose records.

...

I think, gentlemon, that if those recommendations, or

song like it, are pus inco effect, chat the Bureau can be se

eatablisized as an organization in the instice Department

which is a service body for the united States Coverment,

which belongs to the peoples. and the Bureas can be brought back

into perspective and do an excellent job, and it has a big job

co. do.

Thank you very much.

Charman Pile. Thank you very much, Mr. Murtagh. Obvi

ously, you feal very strongly. on this subject, and it took a

certain amoune of concuge on your part to be here.

Rather than accompt to question at this time, ve do

have one ocher statement by, a former sometime employee of the

PB3, Me. Robert Hardy. It is a very short statement, and i

thinis perhaps we san got that in before we breai for lunch.

It Mr. Hardy would take the table. Bring the microphone

alose to you and go right ahead.

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 76

---

## Page 77

4190

jh 1.

4

.'

5

9

10

72.

33

85

16

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

STATEMENT OF ROBERT HARDY

FORMER FBI INFOREANT

Ne: Handy. Mi. Chairman and cornittee members, my name

is Robert Hardy. I am 37 years old and I live in Cander.

New

versay.

I an married and

the father of four children.

I support mysels and my family as & general contractri. I

have served my country in the U.S. Marine Corps and on

Jane 25, 1971 I becane an FBI informer.

I am not proud that I was an FBI Informer. I am noc

proud of wat happened as a result of my being an infomer.

I only hope and pray that by cominy here soday I can right

some of the wrong that was conmitted. Ferhaps we all can

learn & lesson fron what has happened in my case so that it can

nevar happen again.

On. June 24, 1971, a long tine friend of mine was having

dinner at my house. Ha was upsec.

He had been active in the

anti-war movement in ous area.

He related to me that a plan

to entex the Camden draft board had been discovered by the

FBI and had fallen through. I told him that such a plan was

senseless and I discouraged him from considering any such

action. I was concerned, however, that a group of people,

some of whom I had known for years and considered good,

law abiding Americans, would consider such action in order to

protest the war.

The following day I went to the FBI office in Camden

and asked than for advice. I taid them that I did not want my

WH 51980 DocId:32989727 Page 77

---

## Page 78

4191

2

6.:1

€

70

13•

15

16

13

18

20

21•

22

-23

• 24

25

friends to go to jall. They told me, at chat time, just co

keep them posted on developments. I then weni to the group of

people I have jusc mentioned and in & shoct time they had

taken me into cheir confidence as a nember and fellow

sympathiser.

At first the I'Bi instructed me not to present any new

choughis or ideas to the group.

However; alter a while they

encouraged me to suggesi to the group the exact illegal accivity

about which I had originally cone to then. They told ne that

all shey wanteû was enough evidence oi a conspicacy io raid

the draft boaré.

they cold me that this would be a lot

better than if sone of my Exiends vere charged wiüh the accual

erine itself. I uas groatly contused at this time, buc I

trusced the rsI and eventually I carrica out their wishes.

By nid-July I had gained a strong leadership posicion

within the group. I told the FBI, wich whou I was in daily

contact ai this tine, that this was not quite right. I was no

longer a meze informei, but was zou a promoter or provocataur.

They told na to continue.

Il I may Intesject in the s'caterent here, the vosê

inforner and provocateur was not in iy vocabulary at the

time. These were words that were put on me by the press and

by the FBI aicer the actual crime had taken place, or the

break-iso

In the course of the nexc monch, upon the instructione

NH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 78

---

## Page 79

4192

&

3

10

2 2

58.

13

24,

16

17

18

29

20

22.

23

24

25

of my FBI ageuts, my leadership zole increased to the point

that it became absurd. I was not only encouraging the groug

to raid the camden drait board; I was initiating all che plaar

to do so. The way I did this was very simple. I provided

then with constant noral encouragement. I provided them with

che tools they needed - ladders, copes, drills, bite,

hanners and so forth. I provided then with food to sustain

chem during the course of the preparation. All this was

paid

by the FBI. They paid me also, on a regular basis, for my

services.

As a man who had been in the general contracting

business nost of my adult life I provided invaluable technical

assistance to ine group. de chaizzar, you would

not bedreys

what an inept band of bungling burglars these people were.

There were about 30 persons in the gicup. It was a loose-init

anti-war group composed of college professors, clergy.

students, and concerned riiizens. They were dreamers, who

talked a lot buc did nothing.

On instructions I once tried to give them guns, but they

refusad.

Mr. Johnsoze. Me. Chairmen?

Chairman Pike. Mr. Johnson.

Mix. Johnson.

May I interrupt at this point, because the

gentleman says "on instructions" and I believe that in view

of the testimony that came fcom Mx. Aucis that that should be

WH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 79

---

## Page 80

4193

3

4

6

10

12

18

18

85

36

18

19

20

22

23

225

nore clearly elucidated.

On lastructions from wio?

Mr. Hardy. At the time ke were having riots in the

City of Camden and the FBI was concerned Eux the safety of

their ayents, myself and the people involved in whai became

known as the Camden 28. They asked me to check to see if they

had weapons or a tendency fos violence and i offered one of

their monbers & gun which I did not have and vould not have

provided to then. It was in check out whether they were

Mr, Johnson. You didn't make this clear. You said "on

instruccions, I once tried to give them guns."

Mx. Hardy. Tes, my agent chat I had been in contact

wäch asked me or suggested that I ask them if there would be

any guns for self protection since there was a rioting condition

in the Caty of Canden.

Chairman Pike. Go ahead.

Mr. Hardy. They were the most non-violent, well-

intentioned people I ever met in my life. But most of chem

couidn't even tle a knot properly. I am not proud to say that,

with respect to breaking into the drait board, I taught them

everything they knew.

Again breaking from the statement, every draft board

that had been broken into within the United States had been

broken into fron the inside. This was the first draft board

that was to be brokan into from the outside. They had no

• •

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 80

---

## Page 81

4194

•5

10

13

82

13

33

16

17

18

89

20

28

23

2221,

2S

experience in this area.

I laught they how is out glass and open windows wichout

making any noise. I taught them how to open file cabinets

is thout a key.

I rented trucks for them. I obtained a floor

plan of the draft board building for then. I taught them how

to climb ladders easily and walk on the edge of a roof without

falzing, My neighbors bagas to wondes why i had this crowd

of people climbing up the side df ny house and parading along

the edge of my coot everyday.

I" began to feel like the Pied

Piper.

I had cominced the group to break into the draft board

OxI

either August 21st or August 222d. A week before the

appointed

time I vent to the FEI numerous times and told chen

thai my job hau been accomplished. The conspiracy had taken

place and i wanted to be stopped. It was not stopped. I ras

told there were 100 FBI agents in the

area for the occasion.

I protested vigosously that I had been double-crossed.

the

IBI apologized to me and told me that the new orders had come

directiy from the licule White House in Calliornia.

Membors of the cormittee, the rest is history. In the

early hours of August 22nd a group of people were caught anâ

arrested for breaking into the Canden draft board. Viclence

and lawless conduct by the radical left had been averted.

the

FBI, again, had gotten its nan.. The country could now see

positive proof that the Aninistration was corcect in warning

NH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 81

---

## Page 82

Ruäolpn

Intel

2:00 P.Iil

4200

2:00

4

5

€

AFTERNOON SESSION

Chairman Pike. The committee wili come to

order.

Our procedure, because of the time constraints we have,

is going to be just to go through the prepared scatements

of all of the witnesses whom we have remaining, and we have

live of them, after which ve will go into questions.

I understand that some of the witnesses do have to leave.

We will understand ii they really have to get out of here.

Our firsi witness will be i's. Lori. Paton, who I understand

is not a member of the

Socialist Workers

Party. Please

proceed with your scotement.

10

18

12

13

14

16

17

78

19

20

21

22

23

220.

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 82

---

## Page 83

4195-4199

4

$

7

the country about the threat from the left.

I will never forget the role I played in this abuse of

American justice. I an sure such things have happened before,

but I am here to try and prevant them fron happening again.

Chairman Pike.

Thank you very much.

The counicise wili stand in recess until 2:00 this

afteroon.

(Whereupon, at 12:10 pun. the committee was recessed,

€0

190039930

a: 2:00 tre

same eay.)

10

73

.

.!

13

14

$5

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

22%

25

-

!

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 83

---

## Page 84

STATEMENT OF LOT

PATON, STUDENT, UNIVERSI

OF VIRGINIA

Ms. Paton.

• My name is Lori Paton.

I am now a sophomore at the University.

of Virginia. I am here today to talk with you about something

that happened to me when I was a student at West Morris Mendham

High School in Mendham, New Jersey.

In February of 1973, I was one of about 25

students enrolled

in a social studies course called "Left to Right." As the

title suggests, this course involved the study of the spectrum

of the contemporary American political scene. For a class

assignment, I wrote a letter to what' I thought to be the socialist

Labor Party i requesting information about its programs and

policies. However, I had inadvertently addressed the letter to

the Socialist Worker's Party. At that time, -as I later learned,

the FBI was conducting surveillance of all mail addressed to the

Socialist Workers' Party. Thus, unknown to me, the FBI acquired

my name from the letter.I sent and began a criminal investi-

gation to determine if I was engaged in "subversive activities."

(I have submitted Exhibit A, the FBI memorandum directing that

Investigation.) The FBI contacted the Morris County Credit Bureau

and the Police Chief of Chester, New Jersey and made inquiries

about my family and me. The FBI next appeared at my high school

and told the principal that I was under investigation because

of contact with the Socialist workers'

Party. After the agent

left, my parents and I were notified by a school official of the

investigation. That was when I first became aware that my letter

had been intercepted and that I was the subject of an FBI

NW 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 84

---

## Page 85

-2-

investigation.. My first reaction was anger because I had been

investigated without my knowledge and I felt that at least I should

have been contacted by the agent.

Shortly after .that, our high

school newspaper learned of the FBI's investigation and wrote an

article about it.

This public exposure that I was the subject

of an FBI investigation caused me a great deal of embarrassment

among my fellow students and townspeople. I was subjected to

remarks by other students and I felt I was an object of ridicule.

I was no longer known for myself but instead I became known as

a person who was investigated by the FBI.

I. later became

notorious among townspeople, many of whom felt that I should not

rock the boat. by

making an issue of this incident.

When I became aware of the investigation, I was concerned

about its possible effects on my career plans. I

was approaching

my senior year in high school and was looking forward to college.

My plans were to major in Chinese and to find employment in

government service.

I knew that the fact that I had been

investigated by the FBI might adversely affect my career plans,

particularly if I wanted to work for the government.

I found

this possibility very distressing.

Because of the above concerns, my teacher in the "Left

to Right" course, Mr. Gabrielson, suggested that we ask the

ACLU for advice.

My pacents said that they would support me in

anything I dia, so Mi. Gabrielson contacted the ACLU. At

that time, I wanted to find out what was in my file and

НН 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 85

---

## Page 86

-3 -

4203

whether it could have an effect on my later life. My lawyer,

Professor Frank Askin of Rutgers Law School, who is with me

today, sent a letter to the FBI. asking why they had investigated

me and if there were any FBI files concerning me. I was shocked

when FBI Director La Prade wrote back denying that I had been

the subject of an investigation. (I attach as Exhibit B

Director La Prade's reply letter.) I realized that the FBI's

denial was false because I obviously had been investigated. At

this point I was very upset over the conduct of the FBI. 'I was

initially surprised to find that I had been the subject of an

FBI investigation but I found it even more incredible that a

representative

of my government would lie to me in this way.

The possibility that I had an FBI file and my disillusionmeni

with the

government's conduct led me to bring a lawsuit seeking

expungement of my file and damages for the violation of my

constitutional rights. That suit is still pending. The

United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit ruled

recently that I was entitled to sue the FBI agents involved

• for damages and injunctive relief.

MY 51980 DOcId: 32989727 -Page-B6----

---

## Page 87

4204

Chairman Fike. Thank you very much, Lori.

The next winess will be Mr. Peter Canejo, who, as

I understand ii, is a member of the Socialist Mockers Party.

I would like to nake it very clear at this point that noboôy

on this commitcee has, nor do they intend, to asts any questions

that sound like "are you now or have you ever jeen a member

Of man?

Please proceed.

10

17

12

13

14

$5

1G

18

39

20

28

22

23

24

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 87

---

## Page 88

4205

12.

12

12,

16

37

58

39

20

21

22.

24

25

STATI

NE' ON PETER CAMEJO, REFRESENTATIVIS OF THE

SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY

Ms. Camejo.

I ma 2200

and I have beer.

My nome is Peter Camajo.. As the Presidential candidate

of the Socialist Workers Party, I would like co thank the

conmiicce for this opportunity, to testify. I realize that

you disagree with many of my views. Until today, the investi

gations of FBI and CIA activitias have not given those of us

uno have been the viccims of shnue agencies an opporcunity

to be heard. Of course, there are many other victins of

these FBI and CIA activities

in addition to the SiP.

Because the FBI speuds so much tire and money crying

so discupt the SWe, I think it's important that I explain

briefly exactly who we are and what we stand fos.

We believe that this society needs to be recognized

on the basio of produccion for humar uceds, noc for private

profit. We think that a political party basea on the working clussi

is nesded. That is why ve are offering candidates in the 1976

elociions.

sot; by vote and the number of scares for which we

have gained ballot acacus in recent yours, we are the fourch

Larges: political pasty in the Unitod States . after

the Democratic, Republican and American Independent Parties.

In 1974 our vote rose to 440, 000 in just ten states.

In 1976 ve hope to be on the ballot in 30 to 40 scates.

IN 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 88

---

## Page 89

4206

10

81

12

18

15

16

17

$8

19

20

21

222

23

25

On many issues our views are shared by many, it not

nosts

americans. These are

issues such as the right of every

wontec to a job, the right of Blacks to attend desegregaced

schools, the importance of organizing massive support for the

Equal Rights

Anenmen't for women, and apposition to sending

American soldiers to prop reactionary governments asound the

world.

On the question of establishing socialisi, however, we are

in a minority, Our goal is to win a majority to our point

Of VieN.

We run in elections to explain our ideas and win suppor

for our program.

In addition, our menters participate in

oxganization demonstrations, such as the large peaceful antimar

marches that helped force so end is the Viatnam war. Many

Of our members are active in the labor novement and the

struggle to desegregate the schools. We hold public meetings

and discribute leaflets, books and neuspapers.

These are all activicies protected by the Bill of Rights.

the Socialist Workers

Party doasn't advocate or engage

in violent or illegal activity. The FeI has never produced any

evidence to the contrary. But, in spire of iri, they admit

that they began wiretapping us in 1945. They've burglarized

us, "investigated" us, bugged our offices, "covered" our

mail, visited our members, gotten them fired from jobs, harassed

our election campaigns and generally made efforts to prevent

NW 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 89

---

## Page 90

4207

2

10

11

14

i .

10

18

• 89

20

21

22

29

226

us from getzing a hearing fox our views.

Bus sicce the exposure of the illegal and unconscitucional

FBI COIUTETPRO taccies, the BI has been crying to fool the

public with a clain that it stopped disrupting political ac

civities basi in April 1971. But we know that's not the

I'm curning over to the commitise a list of some 225 incidents

Of FBI harassment that. have

caken place since April 1971.

Theée inalade ThI visics to landloras, enployers, and parents

of members and supporters of my party and visits to

members and supporters thonselves.

Tus of the witnesses with me, Rachy Siedge and loft Patos

will describe iso incidents from thai list. cs 225.

In the fei's ver, the she continues to ba a lagitimate

target for discuption. they have been attenting it for decades

and they are continuins ti right now.

In their public explanations, sometines they say this is

because we are terrorists, or because we are "subversives,"

or because we advocate violence. I would lise to respond to

these charges.

First, the rst itself has provided us vith proof that

theis charges are false. let's 100k at the record. The FBI

admits it began wiretapping our parcy in 1945. Since then

the rBI has not brought a single indictrent against & single

member of the SWe, Noi one indietment against a single

member in thirty years of the tightest imeginable surveillance.

NH 51980 DocId: 32989727 Page 90

---

## Page 91

420.8

3

10

18

12

13

14

15

76

17

18

20

21

28

23

24

25

As. was pointed out earlier today, the Democratic and

Republican parties, on the other hand, cannot point to suci

a record.

Secondly: I call your attention to the 1961 FBI memorandum

that launched the "SW Disruption Progran." Here they give

the FBI's seal reason for this war of disruption. this document,

which was never intended for public view, sands in sharp

contrast io cheir public charges of viclent and illegal acts.

I was astonished this norning that the FBi failed to make a

single reference to the COINTELPRO Progran in their

statements-

The new said: "the she has... been openly espousing

is line ... enrough running candidates for pubiic office

and strongly direcsing ansjor supporting such causes as

Castro's Cuba and integration problems arising in the south."

They don't charge us with violence, not assassinationg, not

kidnapping. Our crimes, to the FBi, were cunning candidates.

supporting the fight against segregation, and opposing this

government's criminal. atsanpts to overthrow the Castro regime.

what about the public charges that the FBi makes? Is

the SWP terrorisc? Absolutely

not. We believe, as Marxists

have always believed, that the philosoghy and mechods of

terrorism are damaging to the workers' novement. We believe

that society can only be changed through the effocts of millions,

chrough broad social. forces representing the overwhelming

majority, noi through acts of terror.

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 91

---

## Page 92

F. :

10

12

{'3

84

$5

19

80

25°

25

4209

Adrocacy of terrorism is incompatible with membership

in the sir.

22d, I repeat, no evidence has ever been

produced by the goverment that the SWP a@vocates or engages in

terrorism or other illegal acts of violence.

To cale up another charge:

Is the sup run by a foreign

pover or organization? No. We are intemationalists. We work

for the release of political prisoners in Chile, in Spain,

in the soviet union and in China. We are opposed to totalitazianis.

everywhere in the world, whether in the USSR or in Spain. We

meet with socialists from other countries is exchange ideas

and to discuss majos world political developments. But

these are not illegal nots.

We maintain a relationship of fraternai solidarity with

the Fourch interacional. Does this violate the voorhis Act?

No.

We decide ontour own policies and principles thusagi our

own convencions and eledted bodies. And although we

strongly

disagree with the Voochis Act, since it was passed in 1940

we have not been affiliated to the fourth Incernational. No

government agency has over producad any evidence to the

contrary

In a recent editorial condemning the continuing FBI

harassment of the Sociaiist Workers Party, the New York Tines

pointed out that "the SWP is a lagal American political

organization. "

The BI has no evidence to dispuce that. What they ara

HN 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 92

---

## Page 93

4210

3

$

10

12

13

• 15

16

17

18.

i9

2B

22.

23

trying to do is to effectively outlaw

our ideas.

In their

defense against our suit, in place of evidence of illegal

swP activity they are

raduced

to quoting fron books written

by Mars and lenin.

The nocion that some ideas

are "subversive" is dangerous

for evecyone who may disagree wich an administration in power.

If it can be applied to our ideas today, it will be applied

to ochers tomorrow.

Of course, it is already clear that many dissenting

groups other than SWP have been the targets of FBI harassment

and attempted discuption, especially Black individuals and

organizations, To help force an end to all political spying.

the Socialist Workers Parsy plans to continue with its landmark

suit againsi the FBI, CIA and similar agencies.

In our opinion, only a tiny corner has been lifted

on the shroud of secrecy behind which the FBi, CIA and other

seccer police agencies operate. Ending this secrecy would be

a big step in the direction of bringing their crimes

to a halt.

The Amezican people need. and deserve all' the facts about

the past and present secter-police operations carried out

behind their backs. I hope this connittee will help bring the

full truch to light and take steps to bring ebout the full

disclosure of the secret files on the FBI and CIA crimes.

Only such

I steps can give the American people the facts necessary

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 93

---

## Page 94

4211

3

70

12

14

10

16

38

18

80

25°

28

to decide the

important issues posed by the actions of the

NET SnO CIA.

Thank you, Ms. Chairman.

i vould lite, with the permission of Chairman Pike,

io respond extremely briefly to the one contention nade by

the FiT against us today. That was

they aunticed and conceded,

and I chink it is eztremely important, that

we have not

engaged.

in any illegal activity. They have

admitted that we

are not engaging in any illegal activity or advocating

ricience. Instead they presented. the

"ripe" theory. thai 1s

chac although we do not ds eo now, at some later date when

things are ripe you nighs call it the rocten-ripe theosy

we will turn sothes and then engage in illegal acts and

violence. the FBI knovs whas our position a probably bettes

than anyone else in this roon because they are present in our

organization. They have sent infosness and agent-provocateurs

For: decades.

They know very well that sur goal is to try

win the majority df the Anerican people to establish

sone basic change. That la whac the Declaracion of Independence

says we have

a right to 2o.

The Anarican people have the righi to alter the government.

the econcmy os anything else thay wani to do. It is up to

then to do that.

We don't belisve any such social change can

come about unless we win the majority. After we win the

majority: we do not intend to uce violence or carry out illogal

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 94

---

## Page 95

and i

10

32

12

....... ...

14

13

16

97

18

20

21

.22

24.

25

4212

activities.

All we state is that the majority. have a right

to camy out their activiciesand should a small group inter-

fere? That is what wa mean ly revolution, the sighi of the

American people to make basic change, as we did in 1776 and as

aid in 1863.

her we had a majority in this country during the anti-yar

movement, did we win a majoricy? Did the SWP engage in 1jlags1

activities? On the contrary, the FBI knows we sentinue to

advocate only legal and peaceful means to get the policies

of the niced states altered.

Now, I an believe that this "ripe" theory, however,

does apply to the rBI. When they sound it ripe, thay did

engage in illegal activities and when they see the moment

is ripe, they are willing so canty out illegal asts, inolading

violence.

That has bean the case also for other agencies.

I wonder when I lision io them here. They say they must continue

to have informants in our party. Are they waiting for the moment

when it will be ripe, when the majority of the American people

turn to our position and they will turn so violence? We will

certainly not. Our position is well established in oves 30

vears in action befoce you and by endiess evidence and by their

own adnission. What noze can

be asked than that we be treated

like any other party and that the Macergacing of my campaign

and other activities be ended and the full treatment of the

FBI and CIA be brought to light:

Thank You.

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 95

---

## Page 96

4213

Chairan Pike. The House is currently undertaking a

vote. The comnitice will stand in recess until. 20 minutes

before 3:00, at which time we will resume.

(Brief recess.)

vi, Stanton (presiding) The Select Connittee on intelli

gence is now reconvened.

He will continue the restimony.

At this time we would like to hear from Kathy Sledge-Lovgren:

who is

=.

member of the Socialist Workers Party and who has

iseen

the subject of an investigation.

20

13

18

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 96

---

## Page 97

4214

€

7

8

.30

81

• 1%

18

14,

15

98

20

2:1

22

23

24,

25

STATEMENT OF: KATHY STEDGE-LOVGREN, MEMBER OF THE

SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY

Mã. Sledge-lougren. My name is Kathy Sledge-Lougien.

I was born in Spokane, and after attending high school there,

graduated from the University of Washington in 1973 with &

degree in zoology. I am employed by che Vetcrans Administration

Fospital in Cardiological. Reseaich as 1 suigical technician.

I first became acquainicd with, and later joined, the

Young Socialist Alliance while at che University of Washington,

because I, like many other Amezicans at the time, vas very

much against the war in Vietnam, I felt the YSA was an

organization I could agree with. Other organizations were

involved in civil disobedience and acts of viclence, like

"crashing," a cern meaning throwing rocks and breaking

windows,

et cetera, which I did not ther and do not now agree

with. Neither, incidentally, des the SVP.

Also, the YSA and SWP were organizations respected

for their unyielding demand to keep anti-vas demonscrations

peaceful and legal. Accordingly, they were able to organize

large demonstrations which were boch affective and in abiding.

In 1974 a number of things happened to me as a resuit of

an intense FBI Investigation of mo, allegedit for a job

clearance. First, I received a detailed letter from

the Civil Service Connission asked me to answer questions

about my political views and associations, about my marital

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 97

---

## Page 98

4215

1

%

$

30

. 22

12

18

84

35

16

18

30

20

28

28

23

24

25

status, and whether or not I was still marriea to one person

while living with anotizer.

I was shocked, and upset, over theateri to which the

FBI had gone to find out if I vas suicable to pectorm dog

surgery. My job was ic assist doctors

; in medical sesearch

by doing che surgical preparations on animals - not a job

warranting

securicy precaucions.

My supervisors vars concerned because, to their knowledge,

similar FEI investigation had ever been undercaken regarding

an

employee of the research

state.

Second, the fer. care to my work unit, callod in my fellow

workers (one at a tine), and asked quastions about my loyalty

to nte goverment, rnether i advocated the violent overthrow

of the governmont, is i vas a communist, and whether or not

I hed iried to sell or haná ouc subversive literature.

co-workers vere upset that they had been brought into she

NAY

matter at all.

-.

My boss, Dr. Tramann, was outraged and disgusted with the

FBi for this disrupcion, Not only had they caused me a lot of

worry and fear for my job, but they also managed to anger my

chief supervisor, bacause

they had ordered individuals in

my work unit to come up and answer questions vichout first

informing the Director of the hospital.

Third, the FBI questioned aji of the tenants in the

apactment complex I was managing at

the time, asking them

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 98

---

## Page 99

. 5

6

19

11

12

15

16

38

19

20

21

22

23

25

42] 6.

if I had had meetings there, or if they had noticed people

coming and going, and what my political viewe were. They

also questioned

tenants about who I was living with.

My best

personal voman friend was called down to an faI

office to answer questions.

so, too, vas my formar boss, who

1785

than living in Chicago. Both were angered by the intrusion.

Worst of all, the fbI embarrassed my family in Spokane.

My father is a wall respected and conscuvative dostos.

They came to his office and quertionad hin aboui my political

¿deas and associations.

He bacame greatly worried about the

effect on his practice and reputation.

They questioned my mother at nome, extensively. As a

cesult,

she almost had a nervous breakcow.. Both my parents

begged me so quit the organization. They feared that I would

lose my job.

Until then, my fanily and I had maraged to avoid talking

about my politics, and maintain & close knit relacionship,

including my unole la Circuit Court Judge of the Fifth District.

We did so, that is, until the tai caused

a breech, which only

now is beginning to heal.

Sometime after i auswered the questions in the civil

Service commission letter, i found out that my case had been

dropped, at least for the time being. Since then, as I have

continued to work at the vecerans Hospital, I have received

two promotions. I believe

I an considerca to be an excellent

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 99

---

## Page 100

4227

12

19

employee by the management.

I have no police rccord. I have never committed a crime

or any act of violence. I keep my policical ideas to myself

when with my fellow emploiees, who have racently honored

me by elecicing me co be their shop steward for the American

Federation of Government Employees.

Thank you, Mr. Chairnan.

Thank you very much for alloring me to come here and

hearing what I have to

say.

Chaiman Pike. Thank you,

Kathy.

We deeply appreciate your descimony.

The next witness will be Roberc Silverman, a

Former

employer of Sodial Workers Pazty membez wo was investigated

by the FBI.

36

17/

18

19

28

28.

23

23

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 100

---

## Page 101

4218

2

3

STATELINT OE ROBERI GEORGE SILVERMIN,

PRESIDENT, PEER ENTORPRISES, LTD.

Me. Silverman.

5

10

12.

35

16

$7

13

20

22.

203

26,

25

NN 54980

Doc10: 32989727

Page 101

---

## Page 102

STE

CHENT OF ROBERT GEORGE SILVER IAN

BEFORE THE SELECT CO:MITTEE

ON INTELLIGENCE

November 18,1975

4219

Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, my name :.

is Robert George Silverman, President of Peei Enterprises

Ita. This is my best recollection of a visit to my offices

at Pèer Enterprises Lta. during the fall of 1972 by two

men who identified themselves as agents of the EBI.

I was called in our sixth floor production office

• on

that day, and told the two agents were present and

wished to inquire

about an employee. After they pro-

duced FBI identification for my father and me, they inquired

about Bruce Bloj--and I believe one other employee. I.

wanted to know the purpose of their inguiry; their response

was vague. They asked what kind of employee Bruce was,

and, after I again asked what the investigation was all

about, indicated that Bruce--and this other employee--were

members of a political party the FBI was interested in.

My father at this point wanted to know if this meant

that his employees were members of the Connunist Party,

that they were "reds." One of the agents responded by

saying he couldn't go into that. My father reacted by

expressing his desixe to fire both of these people.

By now the exchange between my father and one of

the FBI agents had become heated. I interrupted, said that

I thought my father was not thinking clearly, that there

would be no irrings that das., and that I deeply resented

HH 54980

DocId:32989727 Page 102

---

## Page 103

- 2

4220

the impression that the ayents were creating about Bloy

and our other employee by iefusing to answer our questions

while at the same time indicating by inference that the

investigation had to do with their political affiliations.

Clearly: any reasonabla person would conclude that there

must be sonething inacceptable, uidesirable, or illegal

abont my employees conduct.

I tola the FiI agents that these employees were

desirable ones fion my standpoint, that they had never given

me calise to beliere otherwise, and that until such time

as they did, Bruce and the other person could remain with

my company.

I said further that as an employer, I had no interest

in the political belies of my employees, and felt that

the FBI had no. right to raise such things at an individual's

place of employ.

However regrettable my father's response to these

FBI questions, it is exactly the sort of response that can

he expected from employers approached in this manner by

IBI Agents--and I told the agents as much.

I would characterize the approach of the agents

as presumptive, mysterious, and in this instance aggressive.

What was most distressing to me, was the presumption on the

agents' part that we would necessarily share their point

of view.

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 103

---

## Page 104

4221

I would like to be specific with respect to.

Bruce Bloy and the other employee (who remains nameless

out of respect for her privacy).. May I state emphatically

that I viewed them both as desirable employees with good

work habits, and I would be pleased to re-employ them a:

any time. It is in my view something more than

regrettable that these two people should be

subjected to

such embarrassment, for what third parties suspect they

might do, rather than what they have actually done.

Thank you, Mir. Chairman.

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page

104

---

## Page 105

4222

3

Mro Scanton.

Thank you, vir. Silvernan.

The hext witness we will have testimony from is Marcus

Rastin, Co-Director of the Insticute for Policy Studies, which

has been the subject of a five and a half year FSI investigacion.

Mix. Raskin.

STATEMENT CE MARCUS

Go

RASRIN, CO-DIRECTOR, OF THE INSTITUTE

FOR POLICY STUDIES

Mit. Raskin.

23

10

19

20

81

23

23

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 105

---

## Page 106

4223

I count it as a disti

privilege to appear before

today and to

answer any questions which vill help you in your difficult and important task.

My name is Marcus G. Raskin. I am Co-Director of the Institute for

Policy Studies in Washington, D.C. I am a graduate of the University of Chicago

and its Taw School. I have served in the United States government for five

years as an advisor to a group of Congressmen and then as a member of the

Special Staff of the National Security Council under President Kennedy. -I-

also served as a member of the. Presidential Panel on Educational Research and

• Development and an education advisor in the Bureau of the Budget. I have

written half a dozen books in the area of foreign and national security policy,

political philosophy and politics, as well as numerous articles which have

appeared in scholarly jousnals, newspapers and magazines.

Since 1963 I have served as the Co-Diréctor of the Institute for Policy

Studies with Richard I. Barnet, a leading scholar in foreign and economic affairs.

In 1963 the Institute. for Policy Studies was established as an independent

center of research and education in public policy.. Its mandate was to pursue

inquiry and truth about those mattèrs which were central to a free and democratic

society.. The Institute grew out of a belief that the great universities were

too closely identified with ongoing policies of the federal government in the

area of public policy. We believed that it was necessary to develop an institution

which would be financially independent of the government. Consequently, the

Institute does not accept government contracts and grants.

We also believe that

the major questions of our time are moral and political ones. Those of us tho

_in the government found that the fundamental questions about policies were

irtually never asked. Thus, moral questions, or even questions about consequences,

were almost never addressed.

The emphasis was on "getting it done" without

much concern with what the "it"' was. I might add that this unwillingness in

government, difficult in all cases, to ask fundamental moral and political

questions. culminated in the Nixon period of government, although as you are

MH 54980

DocId:32989727 Page 106

---

## Page 107

Page 2

Testinony before House Inte

4224'

gence Committee

avare, the seeds of the Nixon era have been present in American government

for many years.

Since 1963, fellows of the Insi.. ute have published books, studies, reports

and articles on a wide variety of issues and quastions. These studies include

analysis of the

university system, the media, health care, the defense system,

military budget, education, multinational corporations, political theory, problems

of econonics, bureaucratic-aecountability, problems of religion the neighborhood,

as well as worker dissatisfaction and participation in the decisions of the work

place. Books by Institute fellows are used in many universities. As you might

have guessed from the subject matter. considered, Institute fellows have been

trained in

various disciplines. They have received their degrees in law,

economics, physics, psychology, sociology, history and political science.

•We have also been

fortunate in developing a PhD program in conjunction with

the Union Graduate School. Seminars and tas!: force discussions are held at the

Institute.. Membership in such study groups usually includes members

from

the government, the Congress, educators from universities, people from the

different citizen's movements which

developed over the last decade, and

fellows of the Institute. These sessions are open and informal, indeed too

informal, as recent revelations suggest. In this regard, Institute fellows

see themselves as as practicing public scholarship. They are "scholars of the

people", available to any and all for discussion. They are not on contract

to any group or corporation, In this basic sense they are independent of party.

From time to time, following the principles of the best social science, the

Institute has undertaken certain social invantions and projects. For example;

we have begun and studied.

such social inventions as mini-schools, new towns

for people leaving agricultural life as tenant farmers, neighborhood science

"laboratories and community technology labs. He have helped communities begin

neighborhood governments.

Recently ve have initiated a clearing house of policy

TH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page

107

---

## Page 108

Testimony before House Intelligence Cormittee

alternatives for people interested in local and state governments.

During this last thirteen year period where so many values have been.

questioned, and where authority has been seen to be unwise and insensitive,

People have reacted through the development of movements which they hoped

would make real the ideals of American civilization. Movements concerning

civil rights, worker participation, ecology, anti-war, consurerism, and wonen'

liberation shaped and reflected a new consciousness on American life. These

impulses

set the tersm of what equality, freedom and democracy should be.

•We at the Institute attempted to relate our intellectual studies to this

new consciousness. Ohe reason was that people at the Institute balieve that

there was a congruence of the high ideals of these movements to those qualities

necessary to make this society a decent and humane one. This point of view

was not shared by the various police and intelligence agencies of the government

who feared public scholarship and the kind of scholarship which gave information

to anyone who cared to listen or read. For our troubles we have found ourselves

harrassed, bugged, tailed, broken-into, eavesdropped, wiretapped and burgled.

We know the following, but I am sure that now you know much nore.

Every agency which has responded to FOIA requests: the FBI, the CIA,

the Office of Naval Intelligence, Arny Intelligence - have indicated that they

have files on IPS and its fellows.

: Reliable testimony indicated that:

I) The "special services" squad of IRS, the Service's political"

"hit" squad, collected information on IPS in a special room of the IRS: Ihe

IPS tax status underwent special audit for about six years. A spurious challenge

to this status was finally made; it was overruled upon appeal within the IRS

In 1974, as the Watergate scandal began to unravel the Nixon Administration's

plans to quash domestic discussion.

4225

HN 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 108

---

## Page 109

I44U

Testimony before House Intelligence Committee

2) The FBI targeted informers to infiltrate and report upon IPS

meetings and seminars. Informers also attempted to gain unemployment at

IPS, but without success. The bureau also rifled IPS garbage, reviewing papers

involved, reconstructing typewriter tapes which were thrown out, and presumably

dispensing with the coffee grounds, tissue papers, paper towels, and other garbage

generally thrown o't each day. The Bureau files on the Institute and its

fellows run to several feet of papers already, and only the barest minimum

have been revealed.

3) IPS fellows were targets of the Boston grand jury investigation

of the Pentagon Papers, an investigation which never resulted in indictments.

Several had supoenas issued against them, but these were dropped rather than

reveal tapes of converations which had been overheard on warantless wiretpes.

4) It is clear that IPS fellows have had their conversations intercepted

by many varrartless -wirctaps, although it is not yet known on whom the taps were

placed. It is clear that the IPS files varu created by each of_the federal

agencies: the CIA, the F3I, the Office of Naval Intelligence, military intelligence

agencies in general. It is not known if IPS or its fellows were targets of the

special "vatch lists" which were distributed to various intelligence agencies,

including NSA, the FRI, CIA, IRS, and military intelligence, but it rould be

surprising if it ware not. The Institute, Richard Barnet and I were on President

Nixon's Enenies list. And various IPS trustees were given special auditing

treatment

5) As if federal attention vere not sufficient, IPS came to the

attention of the DC Police and their political intelligence unit. The DC

police employed the same inforner used by the FBI against IPS, and perhaps several

others.. Several mysterious break-ins took place at IPs over a course of two

years.

The powerful and the state are never very comfortable with open scholarship

and with the willingness to pursue questions whose answers may not serve the status

HTH

54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 109

---

## Page 110

4227

¡quo. This problem is one

goes with

the territory fo

he public scholat,

the scholar for the people. Ideas are indeed frightening things.. They cannot be

seen, but they can be felt, they represent the accumulated wisdom of people,

and yet they seem ivory towered and remote; they challenge the status quo and

undermine the powerful, but they can be tested and evaluated publicly and

honestly. This can be done through debate, not through wiretapping or burglary.

It can be done not through imprisonment, indictrent; impugning the patriotism

or honesty. Of another person, but by stating directly one's interests, arguments

and purposes. The value of this hearing is that it will encourage the police

-agencies to think again about who they are and what they serve. It might even

encourage them to come to discussions of the Institute not as spies, sneaks

• and informers, but as participants who are open to having their dearest assumptions

challenged,

WH 54980

DocId:32989727

Page 110

---

## Page 111

Copeland

fOllowS

Rudolph

3:00 p.M.

•11/18/75

4228

4

9

10

Mix. Stanton.

Thank you, le. Raskin. I an delighted to

have your iestimony, and my colleague, Congressman Dellums,

: delighted to welcome you as à co-member of the Presideni's

Enemy list, on which he is happy to join you. we would like

at this tine for Mr. Muztogh and Mi. Hardy to pull chairs up

to the table.

We will begin the questioning of nenbers of the panel.

Any menher who wants to question any particular person who

has testified can do it now..

Hit. llcClory. I don't want. to get the ansver right now.

but the lasi withess, lu. Rastin, I guess, you mentioned wire-

taps in a very general way and inlauful acts and chings like

that.

14

15

16

17

18

ES

20

21

22

29

23

25

We are investigating the fBI codal, and i would like you

to, at an appropriate tine,. delineate the precise time and

place whes unlawful wiretaps were piaced on you and any

members of your organisation. of any other illeyal acts

WEre

performed by them which 've could invertigate with them.

Mr. Stanton. Fine; Me. Ragkin; do you nanc to respond?

MI. Raskin. Mr. Congressman, may I submit the file to you"

MI. MoCIosy. Yes, thai is what I want you to do.

Mr. Raskin.

I don't have it with me, buc i will submit

it.

(The information is to be supplier.)

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 111

---

## Page 112

4229

F

$

9

30

{?

12.

13

14

16

17

18

19

20

28

22.

28

24

26

ME. MOCLOrY.

I want to ast Me. Muirtagh, you mentioned

unlanêul virataps and especially a vizita?

on Martin Luther

King. As a matter of face,, that was a wiretap whieh was piacea

on Marcin Luther Ring by direct authority of the Aciorey

Genaral Roberc Kennedy, was it not?

Mr. Markagi. As I understand it I guess you have been

through this before, and I said, "os questionable legality",

and i am not concernad

No. McClory. Just answer he question.

Mt. Stanton, Do you know uno placed the wisetap oi

authorized 12?

NE. Murcagha

No, I don't know whe authorized it.

Mi, Stanton.

that answers. the question.

Ms. Murtagh, May I make a coscection la my orisinal

statement, Mr. Chairnan?

...

Me. Stanton. We would be happy to have any corrections.

Mr. Muntagi. This is juat & shori: cocrestion and will

only take a minute, I spid that I had known thousands of

agents who had resigned in disgust, and I guess thai would be

incorrect, t probably have known hundseds who did.

Mx. McClory. Would you give us the names of five oi ken

you can chink oft

ISt. Murcagh, No, sir, I couldn't give you the names

of

five or ten agents. I don't recall naves chat rapidly.

think I could

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 112

---

## Page 113

4230

2.

30

12.

15

86

17

18

29

20

23

22

*23

25

Me. Mcclory, Do you know the tames of ion?

vix, hurtagh: "es; I could go bacis and review them.

the bureau would want to give me & list of the agents that

went through the offices i was in, I could pick out many.

Me. McClory.

Get sex foz.me. I would like to have the

names.

.....

Every former fBi agent

I met until you come along was

very proud of his service, of the sai, and felt a sense of

loyalty sight up until today. and didn't feal any nead fr

bring such loyalcy as you have coday.

Ma, Mustagho Tos anô I age tallisg to differant agesta.

ti. Scaatoas

Me. Noclork. I don'i thins you ought to

characcorize the wiress" testinory.

Please continue.

....

MI, MCClOry. I want to ask Mr. Canejo, Fron 1938, I.

chirl: it vas, until 1940 the Soclalist Workers Jarty did, and

originally did advocate the overtiror of the gorenuent by

foxce of violenco, did ic not?.

Mc. Camejo. No, it did not.

Mr. MoClory. It never did?.

ME. Comejo.

Never did.

....

Mr. Meclory. Are you talling about never since you

became affiliated wich it or never in its history?

it. Camajo. Never in its history.

ME. RcClory. Now, when you talk about that, you want io

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 113

---

## Page 114

4232

23

{8

14

35

16

1Y

18

19

20

23

22

20

24

25

assert sighcs such as those that were

siercised in 1776 and

1861, chose were violent revolutions, vere they not?

Vix, Canejo.

The American, people chose in 1776 that they

wanted no taxation vithout representation; they vanised a

republic; they wanted a democracy; and there was a

that would not allow then is have that,.

tyranny

I don'i know if you are acquainted with chis type of his-

tory, bus thece. was a revolution ai chit time which most

Americans supported. The entire nation is colescating it next

fear. You might have heara of shai.

Me. nichlory, Was lt a riolent revclution?

Ne. Camejo, Yes, It was quite violent.

Mr. MeClory, In that the kind you advocate now?

Mi. Canejo. I support the revolucion of 1776.

ME. VCClory. Is that the kinô you advocate now?

Mi. Carejo. No; I think we don't need io repeat that

revolution.

We are independent from England nosy s0 2: 19

unnecessary to cry that one again. It would be rather foolish.

Ne. McClory. Me. Mustagh, in addition to the wiretap that

you say was illegal, will you give me the

Mr. Murtagh. Conccessman, I did not say the wiretay was

illegal.

Mi. McClory. lou used the expression illegal activicy

throughout your testimony.. I want to know what they were.

Is. Murtagh, The illegal.

activity consisted of a series

NN 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 114

---

## Page 115

4232

z...

the

of things

es care

Mo. McClory. I want you

to delineate. then,

Mr. Hurtagh. It you will give me an opportunity, i will

answer them.

Mr. NcClozy. We won't have tine soday, because I am sure

there are too many you want to delineace. I want you to fur

nish the Connittee with a complete lis. of all the illegal

activity you wore called on to perform when you were in the

FBI.

10

12

18

14

15

77

88

18

. 20

21

22

25

222

25

My sine is up. That is why I am asking you so subnit it.

So if you mili do that, I would appreciste it.

Mr. Muzüagh. All right, Mx.. NoClory, let me tell you

this.

I will not bocher to sucmit it for this reason: I have

been through this thing. My wife has jeon suffering

MC. MCCIOrY. I just rant.

Ma. Murtagh. Can i make my statement or, not?

HE. McClony. You are not responding to my question any more

than Mr: Camejo responded. I want ansvers to questions. I

den't want speeches and performances here. This isn't a

spectacle. It is an investigation, and you are refusing to

respond to my question whel you refuse to tum oves in

delineaced form the illegal

• activities which you referred to

In a general way in your statement.

No. Stanton. I think we will give you one nomant to

expiain, is. Murtagh, if you rould like to explain why you are

HN 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 115

---

## Page 116

4233

G

30

38

13

15

16

17

18

89

20

21

22.

23

21

25

not going to submic the tescimony.

Mr. Murtagh, I an not going to continue any longer in

this business. If the Committee hasn": by this time collected

enough information to see the need for reform of the fBi, then

I think that the cause is lost and the country is lost ií ve

can'e do it wich whai we nave now... ..

Mi. Scanton, Thank you. The Chair would like to ask

Mc. Raskin if cheze has ever oben a tie when the Instituce

for Polidy Scudies has ever adurcated change by violent means.

Me. Baskin. NO,

sar.

. ....

Me. Stanton.

Was the IPS ever engaged in training ses

sions or stratogy sessions for individuals who advocated

violente to achieve their goal?

Mr. Raskin, No, nic.

..

Mr. Stanton. Have they ever provided refuge for fugitives

Ecom justice?

Ms. Raskin. No, siE.

Nr. Stanton. Thanis you.

......

....

the Chair vill giold so Mc. Delluis.

NE. Bellums, Thank you, Me. Chairman.

Mx. Narcagh, unformately, I was n0c able to be here this

morning,-and I would like to take the opportunity to ask you

a low questions, perhaps in a different ione and certainly in

a different sacuze than ine distinguished tanking minority

member.

NH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 116

---

## Page 117

4231

3

5

7

10

13

82

15

$6

17

18

19

20

21

22.

23

24

25

Has the FbI tended to screen ouc certain racial

groups and religious groupss..

Mr. Martagh. I am

sorry:. I didn', hear the question.

Mio Balluns. Has the Eat, tended, over the years, to

sareen out certain racial groups and roligious groups?

Mr. Murkagh. Racial and religious groups. i don't

understand that you nean by, screen out.. In hising?

Mr. Dellams, Tes.

1. Burtogh, There is no question about it, that the

selection process has been designed in such a way inat a per

son could not be hired in an agent capacity unless he could get

by an interview wich a person who was already in the position

of, says ar

SAC and the screening has bean done along the

Ines of if you lock the part.. if you are the type of person

that I am, then we will

take your and if you are not, we

won't.

.... .

I have versonal experience in a situazion where an

11. Force captain was coming. into the Bureau I mean was

asking for employment and the assistant in charge in Atlanta

called me in. I had been assisting in screening some of these

people. He asked me so go qui

and take a look at this fellow,

and i wont out and looked at pin and i went back in and he

said, "Do you see anything wrong wich him?" I said, "No, I

can't see anything wrong."

He said, "Didn't you notice thac he has eyes like Robart

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 117

---

## Page 118

4235

3

30

13

$5

iG

20

28

23

• 24

25

Mitchum? His eyalids fail down over his eyes." I said,

"Jes, I noticed that." Me said, "Well, I vorld be afraid io

recommend him,"

He said, "I got iransiocred one time foi

recornanding somebody chat had dore on their face."

I give chat as as illustracion of the sort of qualifica-

cions chas they looseô into....

.... ..

Mr. Dolluns. Thaak you, Ne. Martagi.

My next question, has this polloy of exclusion had con

seques ces or astected the resulta or policies of the reI?

Nc. Muctagh, I think it is the wole problem hecause

the

direction and the atiitudes, chat control the thinking in the

FEr are che acticudes of chose that are mired.

Now, lc, Adame hers this nozning was mentioning that they

were having trouble reomicing minority agents. I happaned to

snow of a situation where i recruiced minority people in

#clanta los slorical rosicions ac she request of the SAC,

several hired of them over a period of four years, and I

recruited then very vigorously.

My job was mereis to get

then, approve them for investi

jacion, and then other agents conducted the investigations.

We got to the point where ve had a hundred or more finished

invescigations at the Buzean....

the boss at that

time was joe Fonder. the boss in

Aclania.

He came to the Bureau for his yearly conference and

came back to me, cane up to my dess, sat down and said, "Arc,

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 118

---

## Page 119

4236

6

10

21

12

14

16

17

19

20

2,$

23

25

I was at the Bureau last week, and i went arcund the horn

and talkad to all the supervisors until i got to Adams, and

Adams spole. to me and he said, "One way of anochet: you have

got to stop Murtagh's norewent" • Neaning Murtagh's Blacks

"coning up to the Buzeau to wotk.*

and he says, "if you don't

stop it, you are going to get those niggers hack down south

to work in your office."

2E. Deliums. Thank you, Mi. Murtagh. My next question

Is, does the FBI have a political philosophy, and, if so, does

the agency's polisical views affect its invescigacion of

Blacks, browns, suds; tallows, Sociallst Workers Party,

anti"ar novement and ocher so-called dissident groups?

Ir. Muztagh. The emphasie, on all. the intelligence investi

gation is to hit the left hari and to ignore the right uncil

they do enough damage as they did in she sixties in the Klan

sicuation, to do enough damage so that the Bureau is forced

Into investigating by the press....

I went into Birmingham in the Birmingham bombing sicuation!

and the trouble in Birminghan srich a group of agents in the

early sixties and the Bureay at that tine - the Brown deci

sion cane down in 1954 and bs. 1962 they had nothing on the Klan

in Alabana other than a list of first nanes and that sori of

thing, no penetration whatsoever, and if you contrast that

with the intensive investigations that they made of the Black

untes - and I did then myself, so 1 know what I am talking

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 119

---

## Page 120

4237

1

3

11

12

13

$5

16

19

20

2?

23

21

25

about . the Black units in the Atlanta area during the

sisties when certain Blacks became militant, there is no com

parison whatsoever of the effort put in, the agent time, tho

amount of agents assigned to the job, the thoroughness wich

which the savescigations were rocked in conneccion with Black

militants as opposed to che Rlu. Klux Rlan.

The only time they investigated the Klan was when there

was actual murder and the press forced them into it.

Nr. Dellums. Thank you very nich for that illuminating

testimony, Me. Huccagh.

...

Me. Stanton. The Chair zecognizes the gentlenan fion

colosado.

Mix, Johnson. thank you, Mr. Chaixmai.

Mr. Murtagh, this noming, you said with respect to the

call that you had from a Colonel Klink about the Andrew Young

election, that you thought that the information, his hand.

wilting sample, I believe it was, was going to be used in an

unrecorded counterintelligence operation to destroy Mr. Young's

chances

of being elected.

....

Was that anyching thac you knew about, or is that a

speculacion on your part?

....

Do you know of any kind of counterintelligence operation

against Mir. Young or any other candidate for Congress?

Nix. Murtagh. That I know, of pessonally, mygelf?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; that you know of.

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 120

---

## Page 121

1238

•3

6

10

12

12

15

36

17

18

19

• 20

28

22.

23

24

25

Me. Muctagh.

No, I know at anothes situation Involving

Information chat vas used in thai manner or at least. Arthur

Deltach told us ic was, in which they picked up some informa

tion on a midwestern - I voulän't mention his name, but a

midwestern senator who was in a hitand-run accident situacion.

He told us this in a class, with fifty agents present here

in Washingion on the weel that Kennedy was killed.

Mir. Johnson. Was that used by the FBI in operacion

againsi sonabody's election?.

Mix. Kurtagh, Hers is what, Deirach: said. Somebody asked

him, "What do we use all this memorandum stuff va pui la about

things ve see, what do you do with 1b?" Deloach said, *You

fellous have been in the Bureau for note than ten years, so

guess I can talk to you off the record."

He said, "The other

night we picked up a sicuation where this Senator was seen

drunk, in a hit-and-sun accident, and ecle goodlooking bread

was

wich hin." He sala, "We got the information, reported it

in memorandum", and Datoach. and this is an exact quote

he said, "By noon the texc day the good. Senator was

aware that

we had the intormation

and

we never have had any crouble with

him on appropriations since."

Ms. Johnson. Anything olse, any other operationg that

you might know about?

Mr. Murcagh. I an only one agent.

Mr. Johnson. I understand that.

i an just asking you if

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 121

---

## Page 122

2

. 5

10

18

$4

15

is

17

18

19

21

22

23

2.4

25

4239

are going

to lind out about this, we have to know what our

winosses can coll us. I would like in know what you thought

mighic be the kind of counterintelligence operation that could

he used to destroy Me. Young's chances by getting a hande

Writing Sample?

Mc. Martogh, Wall, I didn't put it all in the scatemert.

supervisor in that case said sometling to the etfest that

chey vanced it no dismpt the celacionship between Andrew

Young and his co workers in the SOIc unit by a couter-

intelligence operation which I knew to mean writing lechers and

seeing that they got into Scic indicating chac hosea Williams

F528

saying sonething about loung os, something of that sature

and having them aurceptitiously deliverad to the individuals

causing internal difeiozies.......

Mr. ichnson. Doen the Cormictee know who Colonel Klink

is and who called him wich this idea and on whose orders that

was initlaced?

Mc. Nurtagh, Eis name is Charias Harding. He is retired

from the Bureau nich.

Nir. Johnson.

He is the one. you identified as Colonel

......

Mc.-Murtagh. The last I heard, he was working as z fund

raiser for SCIC.

Nx. Johason. Do se know who initiated that contact with

Colonel Klini?

H 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 122

---

## Page 123

4240

3

30

11

12

13

18,

18

19

22

23

24

23

Hustagh.

who initiaced it

Mr. cohnson. Yes, you said he received a call. You

don't know vhose orders chis allegedly originated vich; 1s

that correct?

Me. Muccagh. All I know 15 Kiink called me in after

hours, and he sald, *Ari, the Bureau called. Can your boy

get? - apologies for the reference to boY, but . "can you

boy"

no mea.1320

my Negro informant. "can your boy get hand

vriting samples and lecterhead material, and envelopes from

ScIS?"

I responded, "Yes, he san, but he won':, and I know what

you want them fox." I said.. "you, and your crowâ are going to

run a counterintelligence opezation, and you can tell that

guy at che Bureau I won't do is."

Mr, Johnson. Did Colonel. Illak confirm whai

Mr. Scanton. Your time 15, up.

Me. Johnson.

"aiE BOriy....

Hit. Scanton. Thank you.

The chair recognizes the gentlemar fron florida,

Bit.

Lehman.

. .

Nr. Lehman.

Just a couble, of brief questions on provoca-

teurs and che information i receivad was that there were no

provocateurs used previousir. to now or in the present time

acting as provocateurs.

This is contradiciory to some information that I had

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 123

pyra.

---

## Page 124

6

70

$3

32

15

45

17°

$8

39

20

21

22.

4241

received.

En3.

I Just wonder, I have no quarrel with informers,

but how do you keep informers from beconing provocateurs, and

did you have knowledge of any provocateurs when you were in

the FIT?

Mr. Muccagn. I spoke to Mr. Hardy this morning when the

question of provocateurs came up and said it is my judgment

that the sicuacion that he cold von cboac is probably a rarity

in the Bureau. I think that, is was acobably. the accions of

an indiridual agent.

The Burean, to my knoledge, never indicated they wanted

you to develop a provocateur, buce of, course, it in aleo my

feeling that chis unbalanced policical membersity of agents,

that is, the fact that they are all rightringers racher than

having a libaral here and there, this creates an abnosphere

in which provocazzure develor...

If you were in the bureau and you were a radisc, you

vere s strong supporter of the Viet Man War; you hated all the

minority groups; you could be very popular, because most of the

agents felt that way.

Ic. Lehuan-

That was a

Jittle disterent I was trying

find out is you had any information as to

Mr.- Murtagh. No; frankly. I think the Bureau did not want

cho agents to devalop provocateurs...

ME. I07inaa2.

I am just trying, to lund out the facts, that

24

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 124

---

## Page 125

4242

2

4

3:50

10

11

12

13

14

$5

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

2A3

24

25

is all. thank you.

ur. Stanton, I would like to thank the witnesses for

soming. We are going to adjourn the Select Committee uncil

trenty io four, at wich time we will have quescions for the

early noring vitnesses from the rBI.

Than't you very much for coming. le appreciate it.

(the Committed stands recessed until iwenty to four.)

ordere

Mr. Delluns (presiding) . . The Connittee will come to

Ney ve have the FBI, Witnesses cocun to the table,

please?

May i ask che gentlemon who, axe witnessos if you have

opening stacements? Il you don"s, we will proceed to the

questioning.

Me. Wannall. Mr. Chaiman, we appeared earlier today

and there was an opening statemenc. I vould appreciate just

a couple of minutes to make a few remacks, if I way.

Me. Dellums, You may proceed.

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF W. RAMOND WANNALI, ON FBI

Mc. Wannall, Chaiman Pike asked that I remain this after

noon and listen to the testimony, which has been given by the

witnesses who appeared.

T. ...

Prios to ous arrival here this norning, we had not receivell

the stateuenca which vere utilized by those witnesses in making

their presentations. Me are not in a position to discuss in

detail the various allegations which have been made. We

HH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 125

---

## Page 126

4243

30

13

36

28

20

23

22

23

25

cercainly are in

a position to talk about our policies and

procedures, and from the allegations wich-I have heard today,

I can assure you that they do not represent the policy of the

FBi at chis cime, and. to my knowledge, not at any time in

the past.

There were some questions which Congressaan Delluns posed

regarding ou. policy wich

respect to employnent of minority

groups. I had the opportunity. during she secess, fron which

we have just zocurned, to have i call placed to our office,

and I do have figures

with raspect to employment of minorities

as of Ooteber 31, 1975.

....

May I say before I pui thare sigures on the recoza.

Mr. Adams addressed himsel

chis morning to the efforts which

are being nade to build up our complement among the minority

groups.

.....

As of October 31, we bad among ou: special agent comple

ment 103 agents who are Blacks, 119 with Spanish inericar

surnanes, fourteen of Amesican-Indian hackground, twenty one

od Oriental backgrouna.,

• =

We do have on our rolls to dete 3l Female agenis, and a

very great need for additional ones among the fonale agence and

anong the others which i have delineated.

Chairman Pike. Io put those Liquins in perspective, can

you teil us ouc of how many. agents?.

Me. Wannall. Our total ageni complement is in the

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 126

---

## Page 127

4

G

7

10

8000 40 84099

4244

neighborhood of 8,382.

Among our clerical complement we lave-1, 863 Blacks, 263

wic Spanish-American surnames, thirtoan American Indians, and

36 Orientals. Very many of there are females. I have not

cried to delineate betweon the maies and fonales of our

clerical complement.

It is the charies of this commitive to check into ou

operations, and I hope that chat also, Chairman Elke, Will be

put into perspective.

We have bean discussing only the domes

cio intelligence operacions, of the 131. May 1 give you an

idea of whac percantage of ou ovesall operatious that repre

12

$3

$5

36

17

18

19

20

2?

22.

29

24

25

The FbI does have investigative zesponsibility under sone

135 statutes.

The agent complomest of ths 8,38% agents we

have, there

are less than ten percent tho are engaged in our

donestic intelligence operations. The most up-ro-date figure

I have at my fingertips was as the result of a survey made in

April last year, and the precise number. was 788, and that nun

bez has been reduced since that time.

some three yeare ago, that, number was over 1,200. The

trend has heen deward, as

a result of our requirements to

place on higher priority wock additional manpewer.

There have been stateuents, made or questions asked, per-

haps I should say: with regara to the FBI utilization of agent

provocateurs.

then we speak of agent provocatours, I am sure

WH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 127

---

## Page 128

4245

1

are spoaking abouc activities which would amount to entrap

:3

. 5

g

30

383

13

$4

18

16

$7

19

20

21

22

23

25

5v2x

since I have been in the FBI, and that has been

about a third of a century, there has been in our nanual a

very specitic prohibition against any agent engaging in entrap

Any agent whe was lound to have cagaged in chat would

be subject to severe disciolinary action.

wich regard to the nilizacion of infosmarte: Ac the

present time in our domestic intelligence area, ve are investi

gating & certain munber of

organizations, each of which has

numerous chapters, districts, clubs.. If you put all of those

cogether, including the segments of the organizations as well

as the priacipal organizations, we would sons up wich & figure

of over 1, 100 organizacions or subdivisions of organizacions

that to some extent would receive investigative attention.

Our total numbes of informanis 12 our cmestic inteïligence

ares is less than that nunper, less than 1,100. The extent of

our use of informants night be beat represented . and i might

explain hare that I an taling about informants not only in ouci

domestic intelligence

areas. I am caiking about those we use la

our torsign comterincelligence operations... I am also talking

about those individuals whom ve have under inquiry for the pur

pose of determining whether or not they may be utilized

Informants.

The total amount of money. paid for all of thase things

• in

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 128

---

## Page 129

4246

2

4

5

$

* 10

81

18

i .

14

$5

18

-17

38

19

20

25

22

23

1974 was one-half of one percent of the

FbI's budget. In no

year in the lage twenty has i, exceeded. 1..2 percent of the

budget. And that figure was attained it a time when our activi-

ties were particularly concentrated in par foreign counter-

intelligence areas.

...

the witnesses who have anneared this afternoon are con-

nected wich organisations not all of them, the majority

organizacions which ase caccently involved in litigation lavolu

ing also che FBX as well as other agencies and officials o

our governent. The Socialist Workers Party. presencly has a

suit pending for some $27 million agalust numerous officials

axi agencies of the govanauenũ..

I ofter to you, Mr. Chairman, that in connection with that

suit wa have, of course, loon reguired to file pleadings

papsre indicating the basis for investigatios, and is the Con-

mittee would be intesested in having a copy of that varticular

papar, we would be very happy. to submit it for the Committae

records.

Chairman Pike. I don't have any idea bow volumincus chese

documents are, but vichoui cojection, they will be made part of

the Committee records.

MI. Wannall. I spoke particularly of the docuents shoving

the basis for our investigation, Mr. Chaiman..

Chairman bike. Can you tell me roughly the size of that

document, that is all I am asking.

25

NW 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 129

---

## Page 130

4247

3

Mr. Wannall.

I am told it is about five pages.

Chairman Pike. That is fine.. Without objection, 16 will

be made paci of the recorã...

(the information is to be supplied.)..

6

13

93

16

18

89

20

2!

22.

23

23

35

HH 51980 DocId:32989727 Page 130

---

## Page 131

4248

5

6

7

i

10

12

15

16

18

10

20

21

22

23

24

25

Mr. Wannail. There was one stacenent made by Miss Lori

Paton this altarnoon that I would like to comment upon.

There is litigation Invoiving Miss Paton at the present time,

also, so I do not want to go extensivey into it, but she did

make a scatement that when she wrote su the Director of the

FBI to inquire as to whether tere was an FBI investigation of

hes, she received a reply in the negative, and I am auze that

1s the case.

.. .

she has explained there were, three contacts which were

made, and I think this noming. it was pointed out that it took

us six nonths really to get arcund to doing this, buù three

contacts that were made and establiched chai she was a high-

school scudent and in connection with i civics class, I think

1é was, bad prepared and sent a lectes.

When that information was developud, it was considered by

our fiold office as completely insignificant, not of suffi-

cient significance to send to headguarters, so when Miss

• Paton

wrote to headquariers and made this inquiry, we had absolutely

no secorê in the files of our headquarters division wich

respact to Miss Paton, and that was, the basis for her having

received the reply which she aid...

Thank you, Mx. Chairman.. I, did vant to make these few

remarks; and it I an able to reply to masters of a policy or

procedure nature, I would certainly be nost happy to attempi

to.

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 131

---

## Page 132

$

19

55

26

i3

19

20

21

22

23

2.4

25

4249

Chairmon Pike. I an interested in your last comment that

there was no record at headquarters involving this Paion case.

Are you saying there was no record ac all ac headquarters"

involving this Pason case?

...

Ne. Wannall. At our headquarters here in Washington.

Chaiman Pike. Now, are you aaying that this mail cover

aurvaillance under which king. Paton's name got picked up was

not operated qui of Waslingion but was operaced on a regional

basis?

Mix. Wannall. No,

sir.

Chaizman, Pike, How did the regional office get Miss

Pacon'& name?

ME. Wannall. Through the mail cover concerning .

Chairman Pile. So there was some record in Washingion

. of

Mies Paton's investigation,, ac least that her nane had baen

sent fran washingion to the regional office; is chat not.

correct?

ME. Wannall. No, 92X.

the mail cover in order to be

establishot - and i think li ran for a pariod of some 120

days - had to be approved at hcadquarters.

Ic could not have

been put on vichow headquastess approval. In tact, it could

noï heve been pai on wichout the approval of the chief poscal

inspector of the Fost Office, Depaziment..

The mail cover chen was operated in a regional oftice

covering the Socialist Wockers Party.

HH 54980

DocId:32989727

Page 132

---

## Page 133

4250-14259

F.

3

8

10

13

'isi

'23

13

16

::

Chaimman fike. You mean thai once the headquarters says

go ahead and run a mail cover, they no longer get any recosâs

as so the result of the mail cover?

• .

Mr. Mannall, We get complete records of signitican:

information

chairman Pike. Wall, here is a situation in which a kid

In a high school class wrote so a political party and, as a

result, got investigaied by the PBI., That is really what it

boils dera se.

Then when she found she was being investigated by the fBI,

she coce to the Fix and asiced shem whether she was being in-

vestigated by the fBI and they said no.

Nor, I don't really thins that you van avoto responsi

bility for this sort of misinfornation by the bland statement

that are didn't have any records about her in Washington."

Do you neat the FBi every time that anybody asks chem

whether they are being investigated doesn't bother to check

in the region?

19

20

21

22

Rudolph

Followe

3:59 D.M.

24

23

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 133

---

## Page 134

4260

"dolph

Mic. Wannall. No, sir. What I am trying to coavey

to you is that our manual, which provices the guidelines for

investigation, in chis area,

a copy of which has been sent

$

...

11

12.

13

14

15

36

18

39

20

22

23

25

Chairman Pike. Well, the letter which was sent to Mr.

Frank

askin on July 6, 1973, was fron the Neverks, New Jersey.

office and was signed by j. Wallace in rade, Special

Agent in Charge, and flatly denied that there was any

investigation by the Bureau. That didn't come fron Washington;

that come from the Regional Office and from the man who

purported or alleged that he was in charge of the investigation

Ne. Hannall. I an not familiar with the letter, but

I was basing my remarks

on Mies: Daton's statement chat the

Directos of the FBI had lisa co hec.

I assuned from that she had written to Headquarters.

Chaisman Pike. I don't kapu whether sha said the

Director had lied zo

ber, she said the FBI had lied to her.

Mr. Wannall. Then I-took my notes down incorrecily,

Mx. Chairman,

• Chaisman Pike, It is possible that you are right.

But the man in charge, I. Nallace Laprade, is a real name,

he was the one in charge of this and here is che language

of the letter: "After carefully reviewing the faces in this

matter, I have concluded therwas no impropriety on the part

of investigative personnel of this bureau and that the FBI

HY 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 134

---

## Page 135

4261

..i

10

32

18.

13

14

15

has no knowledge of any letter Ms. Paton may have sent

to the socialist labor Party., You may be sure that Ms.

Paton is not the subject of an investication by this Bureau

and that the FBi doas not maintain a general policy of surveil

lance of correspondence of political groups such as the

SocialisE Labor Party."

We are now talking about the socialist Labor Parcy

opposed. to the Socialist Workers Party. But other chan

thak, it seems to me a rather straightforward mis assertion

of the faces as chey actually were.

Mr. Wannali. Mc. Chairman, I will be rory hapey to pursue

this, get the laces and subnit them to you. I was endearoring

to address myself to the policias and procedures that we

have.

17

18

19

20

28

22

23

25

Chairuan Pike: Me. NoClory.

Mi. Meclozy. Thank you, Mc. Chairman

With respect to the employment of fBI agents, Mr. Murtagh

stated that there were thousands who have been forced to

leave the FBI service In utter disgust. Now you state that

you save 8300 agents. How many were asked to resign last year

or how many resigned voluntarily last year?

Mr. Stanton. lould the gentlemn field for a second?

He anended his siatement.

Mr. McClory. I know, but I am just asking how many.

I am not asking whether he made a diraci statement or not.

NH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 135

---

## Page 136

4262

Mr. Stanton. You would not want to misrepresent what

2,

30

18

18.

13

14

16

77

19

28

23

24

he said.

Mr. Mcclory. That is his written statenent. A11 I

want to know is how many wanted to resion or how many requested

to resign. Would you furnish us wich chac information for che

last two or three years so we vill know how many are resigning

in disgust or war?

Mr. Wannall. Ne. Moclory, the best way i can ansver

that is to tell

you that the turnover rate anong agents,

if you exclude those who retire, is less than 3. percent.

Mr. MoClory, With respect to informants, thar is a

legitimate and very vital way of securing infoznation

and intelligence, isn't 1t?

Me. Wannaid:

JeB, Sit.

You aze not going to discontinue that

because ve have some intelligence excessas or failures or abuses,

I hope.

Now also, Mir. Hurragh, of course, came to work fos you

In 1951. That vas before the Civil Rights Act of °64 and before

the Voting Rights Act of '65.

We have had & chunge, have ve not, during these later

years with respect o rights of minorities, espocially the

righte of blaciss to vote and unemployment and things like

that and they have been reflected in the FBI as wall as in

all segments of our society. I trust. I chat rigit?

• НЫ 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 136

---

## Page 137

42.63

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

19

28

123

22

23

24

25

Mr. Wannall! I think that is a corcect statenent, sir.

Mr. McClory. Mr. Murtogh also testified about the wireta?

o Martin lucher ling, Jr., but he didn't seem to know

whether it was authorized or unasthorized, actually.

Actially, that was authorizad by a former Attorney Ganeral

Roberi Rennedy, was 1+ not?

Ne. BanalI. It was anchorized, 199, air.

ME. Mectory.

Now, with respecc to scate wiretaps,

you don't have anyching to do wish that, viether they are

authorized or mauthorized, do you?

Mt. Wasanall. No.

Me. Mccloty, Have you had any kind of wizetapa on this

organizacion which is the IIS Institute of Policy Studies, do

y0U. 170W3

Mr. Wannall. Mr. MClory, that case is in licigation

and we would be very glad to answer that in execucive

SeSSION.

Nr, McClosy, Vich respect to the Socialint Workers

Party, did they at one tine, according to your information,

advocate the overthrow. of the government by force and

violence?

Nr. Wannal1. Yes, 31X.

Mr. MCCloty, When was that's

Mi. Wannall, It is my reccliection that leon Trotsky

established the Fourth International in 1938 and the Party

HH 51980 DocId:32989727 Page 137

---

## Page 138

4264

%

10

.22

12

:

15

70

29

21

23

24

3%

here in the United Staine was established at che same cime.

Ms. NoClory. Do you regard them as a revolucionary

parcy now that is advocating overchrow of the U. S. Government

by force and violence?

15. Wannall. I would have to say i regard them as

a party chas follows the doctrine of Marxism leninisn as inter

preted by leon Trotsky.

Hi. McClory. How about she Insticute of policy Scudies,

do they advocate any violent overchrow de che Government?

Ni. Wannallo i have no inowledge to that effect.

ME. MCCLOSY•

He have quite a large file here. This is

the FBI file on the IPS. Why do we keep such a large file

on that?

Vico Wannall. As vas pointed out thie morning, we had

investigation, I think it was for about five und a hale

years+

Me. NoClors. Do they pose some threat to the united

States Government?

Me. Wannall. I think our inveacigation principally

was based on the individuals who were involved in the

organization as opposed to the organization itself.

ME. LoClory, no the individuals who belong to the

organization belong to some other organizations that advocate

the overchrow of che government by fosce and violence?

Me. Wannall, I think tho principal basis for our opening

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 138

---

## Page 139

4265

.."

F

10

19

12

83

88,

$5

16

59

20

228

22

23

21,

25

active investigation was the association or connections,

at least, with an organization which was know as the Students

for a Democratic Society which ultinately evolved into two or

3

three organizations, one of which is the Weathermen underground

coday.

Mc. HoClory. My cime is up.

Chairman. Pike. It is my understanding, Mr. Hayes,

that because of the bells. you got counted out of youc

questioning period. The gentleman is recognired..

Mr. Hayes, The feeling that I get is chai somehow i am

plunged baci into a very murly ideological svanpland.

I didn': really realize that anybody was still cramping

around discussing at the kind of level chat has been discussed

today and in the testimony particularly, the ideological

postuzings of groups in America. I think it is really quite

strange and to me quite disturbing. i want to simply comment

on some views that were placed in the record by Mr. McClory,

particularly, some views I think probably ought co be taken

into account considering the testimony we have had here

this morning and considesing sone of the explanations

that you have given.

The question of how long wa should stay witi an

investigation of someone is answered, I think, basically

by the EBT. and the other

• witnesses representing the FBI

as being incorminably until

such a time as they might renounce

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 139

---

## Page 140

4266

10

23

22

.16

17

18

39

20

21

22.

233

24

25

the use of force or ihe use pe terrocion or any device

In carrying out what their and sesulc rdght be, what they

desire. That might be i change in the econonic or political

atruoture of this country. Bui as i urdaretand it, this

particular group here today is just surply saying that there

is going to be a revolucion, economio ci political, and

there is noching they can do to sither start di or siop it.

and not muen ve can do to start it or stop it, but ic is

simply souething that is going to happer.

the renunciation of sonething reaily is not in our

Jays. I do not know of anyplace we have s requirement. in the

Smith Act, which has been

cited ad infinitum coday, or any

othor act. So wo do not reguira the renunciation of any

course of action. If acmebody is silent, they stay silont.

If you pussue

these people because of their regard for Procaly

have you heard of lax bastman, because if you haven't heard

of him, he was rowed reading the Reader's Digest. But he

aid happen to ba trotsty's secretary at one time. I thials

it is an expensive chore

that you

are gusting the Goverment

irite if you are

suggesting to policy makers that te pursue

these investigations to some degree.

This is where I think Mr. McClory in mistaken when he

Lauds loyalty and this fastening down and makes

2l1 Kinds

of inquirios abour whac

You found out about what sonebody

believes. You said you do not investigate organizations, bui

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Paye 140

---

## Page 141

4267

6

10

13

18

•16

17

18

80

20

28

2a2

223

242

25

rather individuals in crganizations. That is rather a

sophistical way of looling at it. I don't believe it washes

out a12I don't lonow of any legislative charge that vould allow

you to do thac. I think quite properiy we shoula not be

heaping coo nuch blame on the IBI because it does cast

with the Attorney Generals and ultimately with the fresidents

and with the Congress to a great degsec.

We have allowed monuments to ba bidit to the FEi in

the form of the office buiiding you are now working at and we

allow even sone kind of admiracion to gros up by saying we

know most of the agents

are sealy loya: to ths organization.

I don't hear of anybody talking about loyalty to the Fairfax

county, Police Departmont:

It seems to ne

, this is an joatance.

where our ministerial cificers, whether they are police

officers or whatever, really have one jos to do, and thai

is

carry out with resonableness the laus of this country.

Mr. McClory is also interested in the use of informants

and now swell they are, and I think they probably are, in the

case of voiviag the enorous amount of byey act cases

In che United States.. But & think most of as who have

hung around in the courts systen for ary amount of time linow

what sype of informants we are talking about. We are taikrig

aboutthe people you ask, "Did you see & yellon Plymouth convertibl

in your neighborhood and if they die, you have to pick it up.

That is how me use infornants. You are

not. cracking any

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 141

---

## Page 142

42,68

22

₴

10

10

13

16

17

13

99

222

24

23

big cases using

then. Ro.I think it is important that

we begin. in some manner or other to quality the kind of

testizony chat we have here from Mr. Ademe at page il, which

I covered this noming, about how or where te ought co be

and chat there are those who have as an ultimace goat cbe

ovarthrow of this country. that is a broad misstatenent

and a misunderstanding of the ideological philosophy of those

groups which is a particulas misunderstanding of your group being

intelligence officars of this country.

Chairman Pike. The gentlenan's tire has expired.

If you would like to comment ai all you are walcome to.

Mr. Wannall. I gould only say chac we ao, or course,

provide all our matarial to the Departient for review

I thinks you are aware that the Attomey Genezal is adaressing

himself to the matters Congressman Hayes brought up in

the preparation of a series of guidelinos at the present time.

Chalrnan Pike.

Mi. Stanton,

Mr, Stanton. Mr. Warnall, You have had

an opportunity, in your position with the FBI, to examine

in 1975 and 1974 whac I would call the socialist workers

Party modern structure.

Do you consider any of the modern structuce of the Socialist

Workars Party a threat to his country?

Mr. Wannall. Congressman, I think we are trying

to resolve in this forn a matter which is before the courts

at the present tima.

HH 54980

DocId:32989727 Page 142

---

## Page 143

4269

5

6

30

3.4

$5

38

18

19

20

22

23

24

25

I would be reluctant to try to give you a reply to that.

I think the Conite thenselves

are going to make the decision

in connection with the currenc litigation.

Mr.. Stanton. You seiy, apparently, upor your investi

gation of the Socialist Workers Party ch the predication

that Mi. Trotsky vas the founder of this organization.

You stated or inferred

that Mr. Trotsiy advocated the

overthrow of the Government of the United Siates. Do you

believe that scatement?

Ms. Wannall. I don't know that I inferred that he specifi

cally advocated the overthrow of the Governent of the United

Scates, Io my knowledon he vas never here. But I have offered, andi

certainly will follow througis on the offer, to provide to che

conmittee a five-page document which sious the basis

for the invescigation.

Mr. Stanton. A five-page document? I will be happy

to look at chat.

Can you juscity now, after the face, in your own mind,

Illegal entries by the FBI as a practice, historically?

Do you think it is justified that the Goverment should ever

authorize, whether it is illegal or noi. an agency of the

Government that has a police jurisdiction io be involved in

violation of the law?

Mr. Wannall. Congressman Stanton, that matter is under

review by the Attorney General. I think the reason it is

NH 54980 DocId: 32989727

Page 143

---

## Page 144

4270

10

17.

18

14

35

$8

20

23

26

undex revier, I heard soneona cite an example, lf a

law

enforcement agency knew thac a grouo hid an atonic bonb in

the basement of the building and had at opporcunity to prevent

its going off, should the agency go in or not? there are

ramifications to this.

Hiro Scanton-

shat would not be a violation of che law

Hi. Wannail. Weli, tale something, then, that ie not

Fissionable natorial, which does not specifically rest

in the Aconic Anergy Act.

Mir. Stanton. IE you are an FBI agent and you have

knotledge of somebody who has nuclear material and 1f you had

knowledge that they might use that nuclear nacerial in &

way that might damage the rights of ocher people of damage

them physically, then you have a duty. Would j0?

Er. Wannall. I'm sure this is the rationalization which

is baing followad by the Department in connection wit

consideration of the problem.

Mic. Scancoa.

there in & provision under the law which

allows for search and seizure by goverumental agencies.

Wazrant for search and seizure is auchorized under the law.

But i thini as a matter oi philosophy and policy that is

important. You have a high position in the FBI. You have

a high responsibllily to insuce that fcom this day forward cherel

15 not a violation of the law in terms of the conquer of the

United States Governnent.

I think ic i3 imporsant to get fron

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 144

---

## Page 145

42771

10

39

32

13

14

15

18

18

20

22

23

24

25

you somE Ideas

to whether you would justify in

your own mind

an illegal act such as must have been justified

at sone poini in time by Mr.

Hoover as head of the idI.

can you see any chance whore you would act at some point the

way ME. Hoover acted?

Mr. Wannall. I cannot see any sircunstances where I.

would eithex authoráre or engage in an illegal act.

• Ma, Stanton, i think thet is portant. You are going

to aîfact the dacisions of the Bureau and affart the carters

of young men was will be coning in cue Bureau in the future.

I think your actitude in how you thrust these questions

In terms of the disciplines richin the buroau itself are

Important for the Fucure of the Burcau. There are many of us

here who abhor the face that you get involved in what we

sonsidar frivolous invescigations at tines or illegal

investigations. We want to correct chose abasee buc at the

sae

time we wanc a bureau which represents the best part of the

American people and the Amezican public,

Pro Wannall, I an sure ou: Directur does, 100, and I can

assure you i do, Ni. Stanton.

Chairmar Pike.

Johnsor.

MI. Johnson, Mi. Wannall, did you bave a chance to

hear or see the testimony presented by lix. Rardy with respect

¡to the Camden operation?

Mr. Wannall. I was not here during his testimony this

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 145

---

## Page 146

1272

3

5

6

20

12

24

15

10

12

18

!

20

21

22.

25

morting-

Mro Johnson. Have you seen that?

lix. Wannall. I glanced over it at lunch time.

Fir. johnson.

in reply to chat?

is there anyching you would care to say

Nr. Waanall, NO, 81F.

I cannot comment on it. The case in fact vas not

even handied in the Division of which i am the issistant

Diractor.. It was in another division. I have no first hand.

knowledge which would lend any information to the deliberations

of thus commitcee.

Meo Johnson.

Hell, I thin: that in the event chac

anybody at the Buceau chooses ko, the cormiccee mould be pleased

to hear any roply which you might care to offer.

I would ast: the Chairman, withou objection, that that opporcunity

may be made available.

Chairman Pile. Cercainly.

Mi. Johnson. If they choose to, There may be. At

this point the statement stands unrebucted. We are offering you

this opporcunity.

Mr. Wannall. I can certainly say what I read in that

statemenc does not represent the polley of the fst..

Mr. Johnson. I understand it lu not the polloy. It

night be an aberration. That is what we are trying to find

•

out. Abersations can happen. We would like io have verification

ITH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 146

---

## Page 147

4273

• 5

10

12

83

14

15

16

17

$8

20

21

22

23

20

25

or your statement that it is or is not the truth, it

you care to male it.

Chairman Pike. Is the gentleman vill yield for just a

moment, I would simply say chat that request which you made

with regard to Mr. Hardy's statement, vould hold forth to any

of the statements which you would like to coment on, any

statenent made during the course of the day.

Mr. Wannall Thank you.

Fix. Johnson. I would like so pursue in che brief time

I haveremaining your response to Mr. HicClory's question

about whether or not the Socialist Packy poses a threat chrough

violence to chis country. Your answer was evasive. I under-

stand you don't make policy, necessarily. But your answer

was

evasive,

based on the fact of adherence to the Fourth Internationall

but in essance according to the testinny as I heard it,

and

as I say, I am an old Discciot Abicuney and I am

prosecution minded. you havebeen surveilling people for 30

years on the basis that they mighi commit a crime somecime

in the fucure. I vould like to know ai unose direction

this process was started, how often it was revieved, if

it was reviewed? is it something that jusi got staried

and goes on forever without anybody corsidering whether

it should be stopped or whether it vas re-evaluated. We do not

have any testimony justing this kine of conduct.

I also know you said that wasn't your policy, yet

HH 54980

DocId:32989727 Page 147

---

## Page 148

• 4274

7

3

20

-

12

$8

15

11098 t

3*7

IS

289

28

22

28

24

25

it has gone

on. 1

Ne. Wannali. i an not able

to tell you who

started

3is Ic started before I did in the bursau. Buc ve do have

the regular practive and procedure oi sending out reports

to & section at the Criminal Division of the Deparcment of

Justice with the understanding that if there is objection

to ous continuing wich an investigacion, it wiil be called

co our attention.

Mx. Johnson, If anybody objects?

Mc. Wannali. If a decision is made that ve should

discontinue, we vould be notified, may I put it in that

sense?

Hir. Johnson.

And that would be made by the Department

cE justice.

Mr. Wannall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Johnson. By the Accorney General?

Mr. Wannali, By a section in the Criminal Division which

of course is under the Attorney General:

N:, Johnson. I suppose there is an Aasistant Atcorney

General involved?.

NE. Wancall, Chose is an Assistant Attorney General

in charge-of the Criminal Division.

fix, nichnson. Is thai an appointed office? is chai

one of thosa oftices where you have people that are serving

for a while and then they go ouc and another le appointed

WH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 148

---

## Page 149

4275

1

5

6

9

30

11

12

18

84

15

16

18

19

20

21

22:

24

25

and he goes

out? It looks to me this is probably what

happaned; that they started the investigacion 30 years ago

and nobody ever challenged it or stopped it.

Me. Wannaila

It ia an appointed office, but I'm sure

the reports aro not personally zeviewed by hit, they ace

probably reviewed by someono under him, who would certainly

have

SOIRE

degree of continuity in his position.

Mr. Johason.

What kind of oversight in the Congress

do we have to check these things?.

Mc. Wannall. Oversight by Congress?

Mr. Johnson. Yas, has anybody lue Congrese ever said

"Why are you doing

this and why have you contiaued for

30 years wher

you have not found there is any danger?"

Mr. Wannail.

I den't know whether it would be kerned

oversight as such, but I think during the entire period os

rime the Direcior of the FBI testified in connection with

the appropriations of

che FBL.

Nir. Johnson. We have had testimony abouc what that

kind oftestimony involved. If that is what it was, it is

understandable as to how it wenc on so long.

Chairman Pike. Hire DelIuns.

Nix. Dellum. Bofore going into questions, I would like

to say I appreciato your going into statisties with respect

to minoritios enployed by the FBi. But in appropriate terms

your employment of blacks is 1.? percent and in a nacion

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 149

---

## Page 150

4276

₴

€.

23

18

i%

3G

21

28

29

where 51.2 percent of the population is women, you have

•1 percent women agents,

Now with respect to your statement about the rourth

Inseratzonal, as & understond it, the Socirlist Workers

Party vas affiliaied wich the Foucch Intemational back in

the

late '30c which was not illegai. As a rasult of the passage

or the Voorhis Aoi the Socialist Workere Party discontinued

any affiliation fron that day so the Fcurth International

which in my opinion flies in the face of yous justificacion

tor 30 years of incimláation, burglarising, varrantless vizetaps

and other programs you have ased to juicify under the absurd

nomenolature of counter-intelligence progzan. With resuec

to the Socialist Forkers Party specifically, as i understand

chin morning you testified thac cue TBi hos noc ongaged in

surreptitious encry or burglary since 1965.

In the fall of 1971 the Office of the Michigan Socialist

Party was burglarined and file materials were taken. In

April, 1973, the Civil, Service Coumission confronted & former

Swe member with a copy of a lecter of resignation from sue.

The lettor had been in the burglarined file.

My quentions are tvofold. Has che for burglarised Swi

offices and specifically have you burglarized Michigan offices

of the swe?

Mr. Wannall. Congramsman Dollums, this moring the

date

I mentioned was 1958 as opposed to 1965. & have no knowledge

chat the FBI has burglarined the Socialist Workers Party

HH 54980 DocId: 32989727 Page 150

---

## Page 151

• 4277

i."

€

10

18

18

18

15

16

19

28

21

22

24

25

in that or other

instances you are talking about slice then.

195n Dellums.

You say you have no crowledge. Let me

put it this way.

I would like to suggett that you checis

the files and if there is any material inading to any facts

cha: you bugtarized the sut oi the hichigan Cifice, would

you suyply that in writing to this comintee?

Nt. Wannall. The files have been checked, and i assure

you there lu noching in the files to indicate that in 1971 the

Michigan office was burglarized*

Hx. Dellums. Thank you.

FBI Manual. Section 122, encibled "Extromist Matters

and Civil Unrest" says in part: "In adileion to the three

principal stacutes outlinea above the fallowing statute vould

porcain co investigations of Klan and other wite hace groups.

(4) Civil Rights Roc of 1968 (1.8, OSC, (247)

In sunmazy, this scacute makes it unlawful for two or

more persons to conspire to injure, oppross, threaten, or

Intimidate any altizen in the free exercise on enjoyment of

any right or privilove secured to hin by the Conscitution

or laws of the United States. Addicionally, it prohibits

or mora: persons going in disguise on che highway or on the

premises of another with intent to prevent or hinder his

free exercise or enjoyment. of any rights secured by the

Constitution or the laws of the united icates."

Doeun't this in fact describe the usjor part of the FBI's

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 151

---

## Page 152

4278

3

?.

...

18

18

19

14

19

20

£3

25

intelligence

activities against so-called dissent groups

in this country?

Mr. Wannall. The entire natter relating to the so-called

COINTELPRO has boes reviewed and is under consideration

in the Civil Righes Division of the Derariment of justice.

We icol: our entire file

on the COIraL RO and made it available

to the Assistant Actorney Ceneral and two of his deputies to

review the metor. While it was not possible for him to 100k

at every serial, he did lous at all socials and in fact Mr.

Ryan, who is'at the cable wich me, tried is direct his

attention to spacific itens that might ba croablesome.

Following the revier, he said based on his revier there

was no indication of a violation o the statute. he dia say

that lã any infornation iscalled to hid attention in the future,

he certainly would consider it.

Mi, bellume, You indicated in cestimony this morning that

you no longer have a security index file. You have an ADEX

Ele, does the FBI still maintain at some locacion cards

which have nanes of 13,900 porsong who were on this

security indes?

My point is: Yousy you don't have it, but don'c you in

fact still have those names and you can call then forward

ac any time?

Iz. Wannall. We have cards on 13,000. I will accept

chat figure. I think it is probably in that neighborhood.

WH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 152

---

## Page 153

0.279

1

4

6

7

g

10

12.

18

$5

18

37

iS

20

When the security index was discontinued by legislation

of this congress in September, of 1971,. we had a program

regularly of destroying cards. They were maintained for

a cercas

period of time and then destroyed. However, Senator Mansfield

issued instruccions in January of this year that no

records should be destroyed pending the outcome of the investi-

gations by the Senate Commitcoe.

We have made no destruction

of any records since that time.

Chairman Pike, The time of the gentlenan has expired.

ME. Milora.

ME. Milfordo Thank you, liz. Chairman.

First, I would like to cleas up for the record the

colloquy you had with the Chalrman concerning)this lori Paton

statenent. According to the wisten statement the appropriate

words of the statement were: "I was shocked

when FBI Dizector

IaPrade wrote back denying I had been the subject of

investigacion."

Now the record is clear on ic.

Mc, Wannall; Thank.you. I picked up FBI Director.

I did noi pick up laprade. In that instance, I have read

the letter signed by Mr. Intrade. He was nos the Direrior.

He was Special Agent in Charge of our Newark Office.

MC

RA

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 153

..I

---

## Page 154

Copeland

11S. Ruäolph

•1: 30

: $

27

14

13

-27

73

19

29

29

4280-1283

Mr. Milford.

Mr. Wannall, on the sucface it would seen

that several witnesses have appeared before this committee

and have given some very disturbing testinany agains. the

rEI.

Soms of these accucations and aliegations are very

serious.

Under our system of justice whether in our couscs os

before our jules os even in Congressional investigations

there exists the right of rebuctal by the accused or maligned.

Without a doubt the FBI has been ascused os some serious

aberracion and violations of our laws. there are actually

two hearings going on here today.

One is the official hearing being conducted by this

conmittee on behalf of the House of Representatives. The

other is a public hearing chat in effest is a form of trial

by television and socociety by newspapers.

With lictle doubt tonight's television and comorcow's

newspapers will decail the sensacional statements made by the

witnesaes that appeared before this committee coday.

Unlike our legal system of justice the props in hoc

required to plod through painstaking investigations to assuse

that all legitinate facts are. known and presented to the jury

oi: to the public.

They are legally free to print or broadcast any icem

of infomation as long as someone will simoly say it,

particulacly if lt conveniently fitg a one-minute IV blurb or

!

54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 154

---

## Page 155

2

4284

1

6

$

10

11

12

18

.-. •

• 84

15

18

19

20

22

223

24

25

three hundred word newspaper iten, and particularly if the

quoten are sensational, controversial or scandalous.

while the FBI is probably going to flunk out as a TV

star in tonight's news or as a celebriy in conorrow's news-

papar,

I think it is entremely important for this committee's

record to have the enmolece and detailed information concerning

the allegations

and accusations that have been made by witnesses

befose us today.

You have rebutted portions of thai testimony. Mr. Wannall

I realise chat you may not be able to fully comment on each

and every allegation thai has been mado today. The time

remaining for this committee to finish its investigation will

probably not allow us to call you or ocher FBI octicials back

before the commiucee in dormal hearingu.

Therefore, I will ask you, as an official of the FBI

take the

statements ofteach and every witness that have

y...

appeared here today in each case where the fBI has been charged

with the connission of an, illegal acc or allegations of

improper actions have been made,

and I would ask you to supply

for tha committee's record

the-following information:

I. All evidentiary information contained in FBI files

chat will elther substantiate or rahut each allegation.

2. Written and sworn statements, if any, from other

individuals who can give testimony to the fact that either rebut

or substantiate each allegation that has been made by the abova

HH 54980 DocId:32989727

Page 155

---

## Page 156

3

".. 4285

=.?

10

12

list of wicnessed.

3. Any ocher documence or evidence that will tend to

rebut or substantiate each allegation that has been made by

the above-listed wicheses.

Will you supply that inforation for the committee

record, sir?

Mr. Wannall, We will do our best to reply to you

reguests.

Ni. Milforä. Me. Chairman, I asis mamamove consent that

NI. Wannall's zeply and all documentars inclusion attached to

his reply be made part of the committer zacord when received.

Chairman Pike. I frankly

thought we had already covered

that.

nuthout objection it is so ordared.

(The above-referred to information follows:)

15

20

18

19

20

21

82.

23

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 156

---

## Page 157

4286

3

10

12

13

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

He. Milford.

thank you, sir. I wield back my time.

MI. Dellums. Would the gantlenan yield to me?

ME. MILIONG. YES.

Mc. Deliums.

I would like to as this question: From

your records wasn't the real reason for the IPS investigation

theit relationship with

Ramparis Magazine and your perception

Ji. Ramparts Magazine?

ME. Wannall. Of the IPS?

Ns. Dellums.

Yes

ME. Wannall.

Not to my knowledge.

No. Dellume. That was che justification?

Ms. Wannall.

I think I previously stated that the act

*i investigacion, to the best of my recallection, was opened

in 1968 based upon contacts with an organization unich was

then nown as Students for Denocratic Society...

Ms. Delluns. Do you have documentation that indicates

that your records will show that there were contacts with the

Weatherment You montioned that very specifleally.

Mi. Wannall, We have infosmation that there were, as I

recall, contacts with at least two Weathermen, yes, six.

Mr. Dellums. Would you supply that to this committee,

please? -

Ax. Wannall, Yes, gir.

Me. Dellums. thask you. .

(the above-referred to information follows:)

WH 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 157

---

## Page 158

10

12

15

14

15

16

19

20

21

.22

23

1287

Chairman Fike. the time of the gentlenan has espirad.

Mr. Field?

Ni. Field, Mr. Wannall, do agents of the FBI rummage.

chrough people's trash in order to collect intelligence, sor

called trash covers?

hir. Wandali. I tiins thore have been isolated incidents

where that nas been done.

The policy ot the FBI since the

middle of 1966 has been aot to condot so-called trash covers.

Mx. Field. Since 1966 that has been their policy and

did you testify under oath before our comitiee that since

cher to your knowledge thai has not been done?

Mi. Wannali. I did so testily. I have since leamed

of one occasion where trash which was discarded by an organi-

zation was in fact recovered by an agent. It was not done

with paloz knowledge of fBI headquarters.

Ric. Field. Is. Wannall, is it a policy oi the FbI to

report on sonebody's

seczat. life if it has no relevance to the

jnvestigation?

Ms. Wannall. No, sir.

ME. Field. In other words, they would not report on ic?

Mix. Wannall. No,

SiT.

Mr. Field. Mi. Wannall, are you aware of the nemo of

Augusi: 29, 1972 - and I will read from it since it is not

classified - saying, "On August 2318. last, Special Agent

Robert Fever observed the private trash truck picking up trash

25

HH 54980 DocId:32989727

Page 158

---

## Page 159

4283

$

from the institure of Policy Studies.

The truck proceeded

to a burning dump where the trash was abandoned. special

Agent Feier obtained the IPS trash and information obtained

from this source is being a signed symol number WI 4868-S."

Is that the incident you are referzing i0?

Me, Wannall. That is the incident: i am referring to

concerning which I have bacone acquainted sinca my deposition

the fiith day of this monich.

Chairman Pike. Would the gontlern yield?

You did get some information about son trash recovared

from the House Select Conmittee on Intelligenca, too, didn't

you?

••.

...

10

11

12

13

14

15

10

1'2

18

19

20

22.

23

24

25

If the gentieman doesn't kacw the answer -

MI MCClOTy. Il the gentleman will field, i chlak what

happened is that someone in the building reported that to

the FBI and

ME. Ryan.

of an

The superintendent and apartment building

fumished certain classified documents to the FbI that were

found in the trash of that

apartment.

Chairman Pike, Weren't the so-called classified documents

the envelopes in which classifled documnes had once been

contained?

MI. Ryan.

They were primarily envelopes. I understand,

and I was not personally involved with this, that there was

one document which had comunications, intelligenca coded

• •

NW 54980 DocId:32989727 Page 159

---

## Page 160

10

11

13

14

1S

19

20

23

532

23

21

$239

vords on it which was classified cop secrat. I could be wrong

in that.

Chalman Pike. There was one dooment which was

classified confidential. And I did Have

tr. McClory. IE the gentlenan will yield.

chairman Pike, Curtainly, ic is I. Field's time we

are arguing over. Mr. McClOry.

Me. McClory. Tai was reported to the fat by someche

oz you got information about that?

ron are not carrying of

an investination of all of tha trash of all of the staft and

nembers of the comittee, are you?

Me. Ryan, No, Sir, 2s I understand this was reported io

the FBI by the supezincendent of an apartusat building where

siest nember of this commistce resided.

Me. Milos. Mr. Chairman, I ask unaninous consent that

Mc. Field's full time be rescored to him.

Chairman Pike. Without objeccion,

Mc. Field. Thank you very much, Mc. Milford and Mi.

Chairman•

This trash cover, was it raferred to in latar documents

and again I quote Exon a non-classified docurent: "On August

23, 1972, WE 4868-5-

which we now know is plain IPS trash -

who has furnished reliable information in the past, gave the

following information and/or material to special Agent Robert

N. Feuer. "

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 160

---

## Page 161

4290

1

*:

6

10

12

13

15

.16

10

20

22,

25

Are you aware of that kind of docurent and why would

crash be rsferred to as a parson vno has furnished reliable

information in the past?

kx. Mannall. Does it say a person?

Mr. Field. It says who. Who usually rafeus to people.

Mr. Wannall. I think it is a matter of the way the agent

sets it up in the report.

Mr. Field, Are you aware in the course of rummaging

througs the trash your special

- agent came across a typewaiter

ribbon whinh the FBI reconstituted and it contained a letter

exclusively involving the sex life of some employees of the

Institute of Policy Scudies?

Are you aware of that letter

and was that letter kept in

your files aud

if so where?

Nr. Wannall. I an not aware of the letter. I knew as

renult of a reconstruction of a typewritter ribbon some

doctmen't

was prodicad. I have not seen the document. I was

not

aware of the contents of it.

Mx. Field.

Peshaps the state could provide you a copy

of that lotter and you could parhaps explain why a lecter like

chat, which is almost totally serval goosip vould be in the

FBI files on the Institute of Palicy Studies.

Mr. Wannail. Mi. Field, I have previously indicated i

was

in a position to try to addresa myself to policies and

procedures and my kucwledge with regard to specifics, te any,

25

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 161

---

## Page 162

4291

11

18

•15

16

18

20

21

22

24

of these

028e5

would be very vague. I don't usually get

as 10 1e

Mc. Field. Mc. Wannall, You cestified under oath last

week that the policy of the FBI was no. to report on somebody's

sex Life

Ji it had no relevance to the case.

Did this person's

ser autivities have any relation to this case?

Ne. Wannall. What is this document, Me. Field? I don'e

have the first page.

Mr. Field. I believe thai is all that was provided to

the committee when we received the docimants from the FBI.

Mr- Wannali. This is not in the form of a documeni

prepazed for dissemination. in fact is is a mamorandum from

the agent to his superviso: in the washington field office

setting forth the sesuits of the so-called trasi cover in

this instance.

At least that is that it appears to me io be.

Ni. Field. That is correct. In osher words, ic is not

saw inteiligence. This is now a finished product, ofcen

referrad to as an analyzed produce.

Why would this information make ic througn the analysis

procedurs if it was the policy of the FBI to screen out

intornation about people's sez lives i1 they had no relevance

to the investigation!

Ex. Wannall. I think, tr. Field, if you will check my

deposition you will establish that I indicated that information

HW 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 162

---

## Page 163

3

5

10

18

18

14

15

1G

19

20

28

Firs

23

24

25

1292

of this type

could well be recorded in our files but certainly

not reported in a disseminative document. .

Mr. Field. I took that to nean i: obviously could be

collected in raw form but it would not be isported further

inless it had sone relevance to the investigation.

We now see a mens in which sone ajent has analyzed chis

infoxmation, has included

excerpts fron it and avery single

excerpt pertains only to sexual intormation.

Is that a correci analysis of that memo?

Ms. Wannall. I have not read it. Do you want me to

taie & reading of it?

Chairman Pike. I think my answer would be 20. You have

never seen this msno before?

M5. Wannall. No, 3i2.

Chairman Pike. I thinl: what Mi. Field is trying to puc

forth is that it certainly doesn't seem to comply with what

you have stated your policy to be and i think that sacher

than ask you to read it at this time and analyze it, we will

drop that.

Mr. Field, Thank you, Mr. Chairman. i have no further

questions.

Chairman Pike.

I want to thank you, fix. Wannall, and

I do recognize the fact that when we deal in the policies of

an

organization ve frequently find that we gat surprised by

some

of the specifics that come up.

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727

Page 163

---

## Page 164

10

1i2

12

{4

15

25

17

18

20

21

22

23

24

23

4293

I appreciate the fact that you did seturn this afternoon

and that you did commant on some of these issues on rather

short notice.

Mis. Delians?

Mr. Dollene. Mr. Chairman, my veisy last question that

I asked of the gentleman wich respect to ips, and "Ramparts

Magazine," the state has

given me different information.

Can I just a5i: mue question before ve adjour?

Chairman Pike. You may ast one question before we adjourn

Nic. Dallung.

whank you,

In response to my question, wasn't the real reason for

the IPS invescigation their relationshly with ramparts

Magaxine" your response was ao, it was primarily concerned

with eDS.

Now the ataif has provided ne with information that says

that ino initial menorandun which is dated Novenber 1968 fcom

your office dealing with ips, was exclusively devoted to

"Ramparts Maganine" and that it wasn't until a venorandur

written ia March of 1969 that there wasay reference to SDS

and that chere is in faci no evidence pi Sp$ concacts wlih

this organisation.

Now that contradicts your testimony before we leave and

I wanted to give you an opporcunity to address that.

NI. Wannall. Congressman Dellums, I gave you the best

information I could, bared on my having seen naterial. It seems

HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 164

---

## Page 165

2

*.

4

i0

12

13

15

19

- 30

20

22

20

25

4294

that there yas a meting in Chicago sometime hefora we

opened the investigation on that and during the couse of

bleting sessions

which I have had over the last three or four:

days, including Saturday and Sunday: My recollection was

that

the principal. Interest that we had in the Ips at the cine

the case was opened, at least, was contact with the sps.

I did noc try to minlead you or give you false informacion

I was erring my bost so call up the facts as I recalled then

fron the bristing sessions.

Chaisuan Plke. Before I adjoum, I want to announce one

thing. àu the time of our next meeting which will be on

Thursday, we will have ready the repor. which it is necessary

for us to provide to the floor of the louse is accompany our

action on certain subpoenas.

That saport will be available

for the nembers to approve at our next meeting which will be

at 10:00 @'clock shursday morning.

Mr. Mcclozy. And the opportunity for presenting

additional or Minority views will expise when?

Charman Pike. Ii will expire one weck fron Friday

becausa our committee cules appear co be in soma confliot

with the House rules and I am girlag the broadest possible

interpretation which is the connittee rules which give five

days after the approval of che report. that is actually sis

days, but Thankogiving comes in there and chat is a holiday

so a week fron friday will be the last day for Minority,

HH 54980

DocId:32989727 Page 165

---

## Page 166

4295

2

3

additionar,

concurring or whatever you want to call them,

views.

Thuraday noming.

5

The Committee stands in recess mnill 10:00 o'clock

(Wherewpon, at 4:45 pall. Che Committee adjourned.)

.ao.oo.com

10

12

12

-====

34

35

16

17

19

20

21

22

23

2.4

25

. •

• HH 54980

DocId: 32989727 Page 166

---