DEPOSITION OF BARBARA MURPHY
Originator: HSCA
From: MANELL, BARBARA MURPHY
Document date: 04/28/1978
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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180-10131-10334|

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/19/20

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10131-10334

RECORD SERIES :

SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014732

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE :

HSCA

(Restricted]

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

04/28/1978

107

CIA, FILES

CIA, METHODOLOGY

(Restricted]

PHOTOGRAPHS AND FILMS

OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret

RESTRICTIONS: 1A

CURRENT STATUS : Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 02/26/1998

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS:

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Stehographic Transcript

HEARINGS

ORIGINAD

014732

Before: The:

subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy

of the

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

DEPOSITION OF BARBARA MURPHY MANELD

Washington, D.C

Apr 11 285 1978

Alderson Reporting company.

Official Reporters

AnC.

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CONTENTS

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TESTIMONY OF:

Barbara Murphy Manell

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LAFRANCEEms 1

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Friday, April 28, 1978

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U.S. House.of Representatives..vos

Subcömmittee on the Assassination

Of John F: Kennedy of the

Select Committee on Assassinations,

Washington, D. C.

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Deposition. of

BARBARA MURPHY MANELL

called

for examination by counsel for the subcommittee,

pursant to notice, in the offices of the Select Committee on

Assassinations, Room 3370, House Office Building Annex II,

2nd and D Street, S.W

., Washington, D. C., beginning

at 9:00

a.m., before Albert Joseph LaFrance, a

Notary Public in and

for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of

the respective parties:

MICHAEL GOLDSMITH, Counsel,

DAN HARDWAY, Committee Staff Member

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MI •

Goldsmithy

The First witness

MRA

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Barbara

TESTIMONY OF BARBARA MANELI

Manell.

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BARBARA MURPHY MANELL,

having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified as

follows:

Mr. Goldsmith. State your name for the record.

MEss Manèll. Barbara Murphy Manell, Mrs. Herbet Manell.

Mr. Goldsmith.'

Are you presently employed?

Mrs. Manell. No:.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are not presently employed now?

Mrs. Manell.. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you formerly employed with the

Central Intelligence Agency?

Mrs. Manell. Yes:

Mr. Goldsmith.

For how many years did you work with the

Agency?

Mrs. Manell: From 1952 until:the summer. of 1959 as

an

employee.

From the summer of 1959 until 1965 as a contract

employee at the Mexco City station.

Mr. Goldsmith. Since: 1965?. with the

Mrs. Manell.

No connection with the CIA. I have not

worked since 1965.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, I want to explain to you

that under: the Committee Rules the witness has the right to

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receive a copy of his deposition statement. However, by virtue

of the understanding that the Committee has reached with the

Central Intelligence

Agency, I would like to ask you to waive

that right. Are you willing to wive that right?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. At the same time, I would like to

explain to you even though you have waived the right to actual?

actually receive a copy of the deposition you may none the

less come here and read the deposition statement at our ei

offices. Do you understand that?

Mrs.. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you a copy of a

letter that was sent to the Committee Chairmän, Mr. Stokes,

by Mr. Carlucci, who was atethe timesthe Acting Director of

Central Intelligence. The letter for the record corresponds

with JFK Exhibit Number 94. I would like to ask you to

examine the latter.

Have you done that?

Mrs. Manell: I have looked at this, yes.

Mr. Goldsamith. Do you understand the letter?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsamith. Do you understand by virtue of the

letter you are released from your secrecy obligation insofar

as answering questions that are relevant to this Committee's

investigation?

Mrs. Manell.

Yes, I understand that.

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Mr. Goldsmith. For further background purposes, I

want to explain to you the mandate of the Committee, in other

words; the scope of the investigation.

We are charged with

investigating the death of President Kennedy and that ercom-

passes who killed President Kennedy, was there a conspiracy,

what was the effectivenessef the investigative agencies,.

specifically the FBI and the CIA, what relationship did the

FBI and CIA have with the Warren Commission.

So the mandate, itself, is quite broad.. Do you under-

stand that?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, I understand that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you discussed the testimony that

you are about to give today with anyone from the Central

Intelligence Agency?

Mrs. Manell. With no one except my husgand the day we

were all together. Since then I have

not discussed it with

him.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are referring to the time you met

with three Committee staff members and conducted a fairly

in-depth interview?,

Mrs. Manell. Yes, at the Central Intelligence Agency.

• Mr. Goldsmith: Other than at that time, you have not

discussed the Committee's investigation or your testimony in

any way?

Mrs. Manell. No, I have not discussed that with anyone.

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Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963 where were you working for the

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Mr's. Manell. In the Mexico City station.

Mr. Goldsmith. What were your responsibilities at that

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time?

Mrs. Manell. 'I was Assistant to the Head of the Soviet

Section and I was not a full time employee. We had small

children thatswere born there through the period that I was

stationed there and I would say that I gave

four to five hours

a day in the Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Head of the Soviet Section?

Mrs. Manell: Herbert Manell.

Mr. Goldsmith. He is your husband?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. "Specifically what responsibilities did

you have in 1963 when you were working for him?

Mrs. Manell., Well, our job was, I would say,. was deunter

counter-espionage and FI, meaning that we were responsibile for

trying to identify and mitigate any efforts on the part of

the Soviets to work against American officials, American

businessmen, Mexican personalities, and also to identify the

Soviet intelligence persons at the Soviet Embassy, KGB and GRU

and to mount operations against them.

We had many support functions in operation at the

Embassy and part of my job wastto assist..

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Mr. Goldsmith. Before we go on, I may have left out one

other important question. For the record, are you testifying

here today voluntarily?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Under no compuslion whatsoever?

Mrs. Manell. None.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did your work in Mexico City involve

responsibility. for various survelliance operations against

the Soviet Embassy and Consulate?

Mrs: Manell. I would say that I looked at the tape from

the telephone surveillance thatwe had.

Mr. Goldsmith. In addition to that, what other type

of surveillance operations were there, to your knowledge?

•Mrs. Manell. I had nothing to do with them but I am

aware of them. Is that what you want to know, what they were?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mrs. Manell. We had photographic surveillance. That

was unilateral.

we had unilateral physical surveillance in

terms of two teams Ifbelieve we had at

that time, which was

unilateral.

Mr. Goldsmith. By unilateral you mean that the opera:

tion was controlled by the station as opposed to a joint effort

by the Mexican Government?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. The telephone operations were joint

except that occasionally we would have unilateral

setups.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Your specific responsibility with

regard to these surveillance operations

was what?

Mrs. Manell. Was to review

the tape of the telephone

tap. I did not have to do with photograhic surveillänce.or

nothing to do with running the teams.

Mr. Goldsmith. By tape, what are you referring to?

Mrs. Manell. The trasncripts

of the tapes.

Mr. Goldsmith. The

transcript and the

tapes?

Mrs. Manell. No. I had nothing to do with the tapes.

I only received the transcripts.

I would review them for

information that we would need for our work there.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Chief of Station in Mexico

City at that time?

Mrs. Manell. Winston MooScott.

Mr. Goldsmith. And the Deputy Chief?

Mrs. Manell. Warren Dean at one point.

He was there

and then Alan White. I think Tex Puckett was also a Deputy

in between in the interim,cas I recall. I could be wrong

about who was

there

specifically at this time because we were

there six years. As I say, I haven't refreshed my memory by

looking at any files.

Mr. Goldsmith.,

Was Ann Goodpasture an employee at the

Mexico City station at that time?

Mrs. Manell.: Yes, she was..

Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibilities, if any, did she

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she have with regard to the telephone tap operation?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know the mechanics of that, of

who logistically got the materials, just how it worked out.

But usually she was the

one who delivered them to our section

Mr. Goldsmith. You say she delivered them. You mean

she came into the station and delivered the transcripts to

you?

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Mrs: Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. How often did she do that?

Mrs. Manell. Every morning, I believe. I did not want

to get into the whole business because I am not clear on it,

just what the cutouts were and who met whom. and all that.

Mr. Goldsmith. For the record again, I would like to

tell you

that all my questions will be asked only for personal

knowledge. If you don't have personal knowledge, just say so.

Mrs. Manell. I mean I have vague ideas but I never asked

anyone, is that so or is this so? So I will just say then

if I don't actually know.' 'I will 'say I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine: As for Ms. 'Goodpasture, did she

have other responsibilities in the Mexico City station?

Mrs. Manell. She had to do with the photographic sur-

veillance. She supervised the development of the photographs

whichvere done in the station. She had several things that

she did for Mr. Scott of which I am not aware.

She always

had various cases.. I never discussed them with her.

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Mr: Goldsmith. To your knowledge, was Ann Goodpasture

Winston Scott's right hand person?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, she was..

Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a good relationship? "hey. wed

0100e Mrs. Manellie:Yes; they]were close personal firends as

well. - Goldenea

Mr. Goldsmith. Was she closer to Winston Scott than

other employees at the station?

Mrs. Manell. I think another fairly close friend of

Scott was Dave Phillips. I would say he had a close personal

relationship with him.

Mr: Goldsmith. Phillips and Goodpasture had the closes

personal working relationships?

Mrs. Manell: Also I think Puckett at one time did and

EstaniCona. I think they were, it may be exaggerated -- I

am not sure, I know Estan Cona used to drive Mr. Scott to

various things. I had the feeling that they were closer than

some of the rest of us:

Mr. Goldsmith. So there was a handful of people who were

significantly closer to Mr. Scott and it is fair to say thât

Ms. Goodpasture was among that group?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Continuing with Ms. Goodpasture, was shei

involved in supervising the tap operation?

Mrs. Manell. Logistically you mean?. She had nothing

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to do

with supervising what we did.

If you mean logistically

supervising it, yes.

Mrs Goldsmith. How do you know that?

Mrs. Manell. Because she is the one who delivered the

transcript to us and I know that she had to do with obtaining

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them:

Mr. Goldsmith. Di you know Tom Keenan?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was his responsibility?

Mrs. Manell. He worked with Annie and with -- I don't

know whether he actually worked with Estan Cona but they did

the same kind of things.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did Tom Keenan" work'in the tap operation?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith.: Was he in charge of that operation or

was Ann Goodpasture his supervisor?

Mrs. Manell:. You see, I am not clear as to who replaced.

I associate. Tom with Annie Simply because she was senior to

him and they were doing the same kind of work. I had the

feeling that she took him under her wing. He was new. He was

a new JOT, a Junior Officer Trainee, type when he came. to

us:

Mr. Goldsmith... The Soviet operation was an extremely

sensitive operation, was it not, I mean the tap against the

Soviet Embassy?

Mrs. Manell.: The telephone

. tap?

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Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. So it is unlikely that Keenan would have

been given responsibility for suerpvising that operation as

he was just a new officer?

Mrs. Manell. Well, he was being broken incto do a

number of different things, as I recall, and I thought he

worked with her. Now, I could be mistaken..

Mr. Goldsmith. Who actually made the policy decisions

regarding the operation of the tap against the Soviet Embassy

Which phones would be covered?

Mrs. Manell. Those were already made before we arrived

I am sure. it was Mr.. Scott who made those decisions. Our

predecessors might have suggested which sections of the

Embassy would be the best ones to tap.

For example, the

commercial office was one of the taps we had. The Consular

Office.

There were several others.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Was Ms. Goodpasture also involved in a

supervisory role with regard to the photo-surveillance opera-

tion?

Mrs. Manell. Whenever I wanted to see anything that

had to do with that I always sent to her and asked her about

it. She - that was not something -- they were kept in the

file room in Registry but it was not something that one went

into and dipped your hands into it. We checked with her

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Mr. Goldsmith. She was the person who controlled access

to those photographs?

Mrs. Manell. As far

as I was concerned she was..

I

did not go in there and look for things. If I wanted to see

something or I needed an opportunity to try to identify

something, I would go to her and ask her about it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if she was designated

formally as supervisor of the surveillance operation, photo-

surveillance operating against the Soviets?

Mrs. Manell. I am trying to think if she wasn't, who

was.'

As far as I know, I would say she was, yes.

But. I am

still not clear as to. what Puckett did at that point. Was he

here during this period or am I confused? Was he there

earlier?.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Who?

Mrs. Manell. Puckett.

Mr. Goldsmith. Will you spell the last name?

Mrs. Manell. P-U-C-K-E-T-T. I don't know whether Annie

-- whether they overlapped or what. •I served there. from 1959

to 1965. As I told you, I haven't looked at the files now.

I may have misplaced him in the history of this thing.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to stress again that the

time period we are talking about now is 1953.

Mrs. Manell. You see, I am just trying to think. I am

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all that clear.:

Mr. Goldsmith. Either Goodpasture or Puckett was in

charge of the photo-surveillance operation.

Mrs. Manell. I would say it was Goodpasture because I

can't think of anyone else who would have more responsibility

than she.

Mr. Goldsmith. To refresh your memorny now I am going

to show you a CIA document. For the purpose of the record,

I would like to state that this is CIA Document Number 170.

The procedure that has been adopted for identifying CIA docu-

ments has been to efer to them by the number which has been

assigned to each document by the CIA and to' refer to the

document by any particular exhibit number. For the future

I will be referring to CIA document numbers and I will not

be referring to any

particular JFK exhibit number. The CIA

numbers correspond with the numbers of any CIA documents that

have been used at the Committee's hearings."

Referring your attention to CIA number 170, the middled

of the page, it says: "Unilateral photo, Soviets.". Why

don't you read that section for the relevant years. Accord-

ing to this document it seems that -

Mrs. Manell. You mean these people fall in this cate-

gory?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, labeled "Unilateral Photo, Soviet.

Mrs. Manell. We had nothing to do with it.

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Mr. Goldsmith. You didn't think Widliam Bogg had any-

thing to do with it?

Mrs. Manell: No, because he became my husband's

assistant.

I don't see why he would have any special --

any more than I did, just go in and ask to look at some things.

But that is not right.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about THomas Keenan?

Mrs. Manell: That is what I mean. He fits in there

but I never knew how that was broken down.'' I would not

object

: to thạt.

He was here much before us.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are referring to Harry Mahoney?

Mrs.: Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. According to this, it indi-ates that

Ann Goodpasture was charged or involved in this project from

May 1957 to August 1964. It would indicate' she was the

alternat CO and internal routing. During that time period

roughly corresponding we have Louis Pickett and Thomas Keenan.

Mrs. Manell. That is why you see, I am confused bout

which of these, you see.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are not sure if it was Goodpasture

or Puckett that was the supervisor?

Mrs. Manell. I would have to see "how else they 'cate-"

gorized Puckett and then I could maybe tell which was his

primary function. That is why I am not clear on that.

know they all had to do with that. I wouldn't say that he was

es

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especially because he did the work, some of the type work of

my husband.

Mr. Goldsmith. You

are referring to Mr. Mahoney?

Mrs.(Manell. Yes. Perhaps in Mr. Mahoney's time he

perhaps had more to do with itebut we had nothing to do with

it except to ask to look at various and sundry -

Mr. Goldsmith. And Goodpasture was actually involved

in the photo-surveillance operation, to your knowledge?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. Could I say something without itat

being written down?

Mr. Goldsmith.. Off the record.

(Off the record discussion)

Mr. Goldsmith. On the record.

We just had a 30 second off the record discussion •

during which the witness asked me whether I had any table

listing Agency employees in Mexico City and what their respon-

sibilities were during the period involved. Inindicated to

Mrs. Manell. that CIA number 170 is the closest thing that we

have to a table.

Let us go into a bit more detail on the telephone tap

operation.

First, with the unilateral operation. What telephones

were the subject of taps?

Mrs. Manell. I couldn't remember that specifically ät

this time.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Not the specific telephones tapped --

Mrs. Manell. Perhaps some Soviet that we had targeted,

you mean that we thought might be vulnerable, we might try. to

set up a tap on him?

I couldn't tell you any of the numbers,

who the people were.

Mr. Goldsmith. I don't want the specific numbers.

But there was a unilateral operation and liaison operation,.

is that right?

Mrs. Manel1.. Yes:

Mr. Goldsmith. Did they cover the same phones?

Mrs. Manell. No.'

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know in what way they were

different?

Mrs. Manell. The bilateral covered the Embassy,

Consulate and the Commercial Office.

It was all located in

one building. I think there were four or five. I am not sure

of that either.

The unilateral -- I am not clear on this but as I recall,

we would occasionally work out these unilateral telephones

taps on Soviets who became of interest to the station. In

other words, those that we had targeted as

possibly being

vulnerable or we were trying to identify whether they were

KGB Or GRU.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would the office telephones be tapped or

home phone?

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Mrs. Manell. They could be sitting in the office where

we had the tap or it could be that they didn't: I don't

remember..

Mr. Goldsmith. Staying with the unilateral operation

what was the scope of

the operation? By that I mean with

regard to each phone that was being tapped, was

the tap

constantly in effect or in effect. just during working hours?

Mrs. Manell. I don't remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall wether it was an autos

matic kind of tap? Whenever the phone call' came in it woüld

trigger the tap?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, it would go something like that,

yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. How thorough was the unilateral opera-

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Mrs. Manell. I couldn't say.. "I think we would put it

on sporadically. We would put it on for a certain period

of time and I'can't tell you how long, maybe three or four

months. If something came of it we might continue it. Other-

wise we would cut it out.

Mr. Goldsmith. And change to another target?

Mrs. Manell. Possibly, or just not have anything for

awhile.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning now to the liaison operation,

I believe you indicated before that the subjects of both taps

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were. the Soviet Embassy and Consulate offices?

Mrs. Manell.: And Commercial Offices?

Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately how many phones were being

tapped?

Mrs. Manell. I thinkthere were about four or five.

I could be wrong. I am sure there was onesintthe Commerical

office.

I am sure there was one in the Consular office.

am not sure whether there were one or two in the Embassy.

•So, let us cut that back then to four at the most.

Mr. Goldsmith. To your knowledge, this operation was

supervised by Ann Goodpasture?

Mrs. Manell.. It is just that I am not clear about Ann

Goodpasture and Estan Kona. I just don't know, did she have

that responsibility, because that is what I am not clear about!

I nureMterGoldsmith. I have been informed that Estan Cona

left in 1962.

Mrs. Manell. Well, I would say yes, that Ann Goodpasture

had that responsibility.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did she make the decisions regarding

which phones would be tapped?

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make that decision?

Mrs.GMänell. Win Scott would make that decision.

would assume he would check with the Soviet Section. However,

as I explained to you, these were

all

set up before our a

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arrival.

Mr. Goldsmith. I presume that this tap operated in the

same manner as the unilateral one in that a phone call would

come in and the tap would automatically be triggered?

; '::

Mrs. Manell. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did the product of the tap get to

the station? What was the procedure, in other words?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know the procedure.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying then that all you know

is that you got the transcript?

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. You don't know --

Mrs. Manell. I have vague ideas but I never asked any-

one about it. So I would rather not be specific since I

can't be.

• зї".

Mr. Goldsmith. No problem, fine. Do you know approxi-

mately how much time it took from the moment that a call was

intercepted until you received the transcript?

Mrs. Manell. I never looked at it from that standpoint.

I just took the tape each day as I got it and handled it. It

never occurred to me to look and see what date is this. I

would say within two to three days, perhaps earlier than that.

If Goodpasture says it was earlier than that, then she would

know.

MI. Goldsmith. I don't want you to think that I am

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looking for any particular answer one way or another:

Mrs. Manell. All I did was when it came in I knew it

was the latest and I knew I had to take carè of it and I dia.

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine it would be two

or three days?

Mrs. Manell. I would say so but if someone else who

handled it said it was one day; I am not disputing that. I

don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many years were you involved in

reviewing the transcript?

Mrs. Manell. From the time of my arrival in the summer

of 1959 until we left and I think it was the summer of 1965.

I know it was 1965. I believe it was the summer.

Mr. Goldsmith. During those years you reviewed the

transcripts from these various tap operations?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. You would have a fairly good idea then

on the average amount of time that would pass from the moment

of a call coming in until you received a transcript? It seems

to me after working on that for that many years you should be

familiar with it.

Mrs. Manell. I was more interested in the tape

than I was in the logistics of it allt. As I say, I never

looked at the date and said "Oh my goodness, today we missed,

there are two or three days passed, it should have been

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yesterday." I never looked at it from that standpoint. I

was only concerned with what was of interest to the Soviet

Section in the tape and that is all I looked at. I was nöt

conscious of looking at dates.

Mr. Goldsmith. 'As a general rule though, you felt that

wyou were reviewing recent materials?

Mrs. Manell. Exactly, as they came in I received them,

in other words.

Mr. Goldsmith.

To the best of your memory, it would have

been two or three days?

Mrs. Manell.: I would think so. It could have been

shorter than that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if you would receive Spanish

transcriptions faster than you would receive English trans-

criptions?

Mrs. Manell. Yes: we did

Mr. Goldsmith. Why was that?

Mrs. Manell. Because the Russian part of the tape

would have to be transcribed after the Spanish translations

were done by our Russian translator.

Mr. Goldsmith. To clarify, if a call' came into one of

the tapped phones and the conversation wastin Spanish, all

that would happen with that conversation

is that it.would be

immediately transcribed in Spanish?

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

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Mr. Goldsmith. You were familiar with Spanish?

Mrs. Manell. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. So that conversation did not need to

be translated from Spanish into English?

Mrs.

Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Therefore that could go to you right

away?

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Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. As opposed to a call coming in in

Russian, that would have to go to the Russian translator who

would translate itafrom Russian into English?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. It would take somewhat more time for him

to get the transcript to you?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. As I understand it, the Spanish

transcriber would mark in some fashion that' part of the tape

that had the Russian section on it.. When the Russian trans-

lator got that he would just have to move to those various

sections. That would help him considerably. So that there

might be then a day elapse there or a half day elapse.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were most of the conversations that you

read Spanish or English; in other words, percentage-wise how

many of the transcripts had to go to the Russian translator?

Mrs. Manell. I am trying to recall, I am trying to think

of the batches of papers that came in and assI would see

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something --

Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, do you recall whether

you spent most of your time reading Spanish transcripts or

Englishhones? If you read English ones that meant either that

the person was speaking in English or it had been transcribed

from another foreign language.

Mrs. Manell. I would say that I would look quickly

through the Spanish.: My Spanish is good enough for me to

quickly look through it. If it was just legitimate business

between the Embassy and someone on the öutside in Spanish I

would scan it. When I got to something transcribed into

English from Russian I would take more pains with it because

I. wanted to establish relationships and I would want to check

files and that sort of thing, to whom they were speaking.

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that responds to the :

question. The question is were most of the

transcripts that

you read Spanish or were they English that had been translated

from

Russian or was itsevenly distributed?

Mrs. Manell. If I had them the same day I would have

seen piles, you see, and then I would know this one was thick,

this was was thin.: But I did not get them both at the same

time. I took more pains, as I

say, with that translated into

English. I would say that I spent more time with that trans-

lated into English.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you received a transcript did you

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receive the original?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know.

I received, 'I think they

were yellow copies.

Mr. Goldsmith. Carbon copies?

Mrs. Manell.

I did not receive the original. The

original I guess would have been put in a regular file with

only the

originals in it. I would have gotten carbon copies.

yello carbone copies. as I recall.

Mr. Goldsmith. " Were the English translations literal

translations?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Theyvere not summaries; lother words?

Mrs. Manell. No, they were literal translations.

Mr. Goldsmith..

What abot the Spanish transcripts you

saw?

Mrs. Manell..

Ithink some of those might have been

summaries,

as I recall.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did the transcript contain marginal

notations? In other words, comments by the person transcrib-

ing or translating?

Mrs. Manell. I think we discussed this when I saw you

the first time.

At that time, I said no. But I do remember

that the Soviet Section asked the Russian translator to

indicate, when he could, the tone of voice, the attitude of the

person toward the other person, that sort of thing. As I

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recall in parentheses there was a commend made by the trans-

lator.. But he would never summarize, he would be literal in.

the transcription but he would have parenthetical expressions.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Like

"he sounds angry"?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. : Who was the Russian translator?

Mrs. Manell. Boris.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Tarasoff

Mrs. Manell.: Yes.

Mrs Goldsmith.

Was he generally competent and reltable?

Mrs. Manell.

Yes:

My husband put him in for promotiong

as I recall, because he was much better than the usual trans-

cribers. He was very, very accurate and I think he had a real

feel for it.

MI. Goldsmith. After you reveiwed the transcripts whät

did

you do with them?

Mrs. Manell. I would route them to Mr. Scott and to any

others who would have need of knowing about them. I would

have them sent to Registry and I would indicate where they

were to be filed in Registry.

Mr. Goldsmith. By Registry you are referring to the

place where the transcripts were generally stored?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, to our whole storage area, the area

for all the files of the station were kept there. We were

not to have our own little files. We would: keep some little

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things but everything was to be put in the general files.

We were not to have any of our own little squirrel files.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that Mr. Scott was

meticulous about the files at the Mexico City station?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. In fact it is said of him that he would

not throw out a single piece of paper?

Mrs. Manell. 'That is certainly true. " Many times I wo!

would not indicate, for example, on somes of these transcrip-i

tions we might have to card names. 'If I did not indicate

that a certain name should be carded because I thought it was

unimportant, for example, Rosteopovich's name, the fact he

gave a concert in Mexico City, if I did not do that, Mr.

Scott would marke it and he would send it back to me so i:

could see that he had marked it for carding and for retention

and that I should have done that.! Because he kept every scrap

of information it was very, very useful when we did any CE

studies as you can imagine, because it is easy to have lots

of material and then discard what you don't need rather than

to have summaries of various and sundry things made by other

people.

Mr. Goldsmith. By CE summary what are you referring to?

Just tell us what the term stands for.

Mrs. Manell. If we were doing a study on one of the

Soviets I would rather have a batch of material that I could*

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then discard.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand. I am just trying to &

clarify for the record what does the term CE study mean?

Mrs. Manell. Counterespionagestudy

Mr. Goldsmith: What happened to the Mexico City files

after Mr. Scott died?

Mrs. Manell.: I

have no idea.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were the files intact when you left?

Mrs. Manell. When was that?

Mrs. Manell. I think it was in August, in the summer

of 1965.

Mr. Goldsmith. Getting back ot the transcript now

what would happen if you came across a conversation that you

regarded as being particularly interesting or significant?

Was there any special procedure you would follow?

Mrs. Manell. My husband usually, the Head of the Soviet

Section, usually reviewed the transcript as well. He probably

would have seen what 'I saw but if I thought he hadn't I would

bring it to his attention and I would take any action that was

appropriate, whether it was just filing or whether it was

bringing some information to a reports officer, for example,

or showing it

to another section within the station, something

of interest to him.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is a reports officer?

Mrs. Manell. Someone who writes up the office intelli

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gence of the station.

Mr.. Goldsmith. Where do his reports go?. To head-

quarters?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, Some might be disseminated locally.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if

there was any special

procedure in effect for getting a tape to the translator,.

Mr. Tarasoff, for example, if the person monitoring the tap

operation considered that conversation to be, considered a

particular conversation to be very significant? Was there

any special procedure for him to get the tape or the trans-

cript to Mr. Tarasoff immediately for translation?

Mrs. Manell.: I presume there was, yes, but I don't

know.

Sometimes we would teil him to be on' the lookout for

something.

There was contact between Tarasoff and my husband

and he might say, watch out for so and so.

Mr. Goldsmith.

There would be similar contacts then

between yourhhüsband and the person who was actually monitor-

ing the tap?

Mrs. Manell. The Russian translator, yes, but not any

of the Spanish transcribers.

Mr. Goldsmith. Your husband would. not

ask any of the

Spanish transcribers?

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Because he did not trust them?

Mrs. Manell.. No.

We had no connection with them.

They

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were the bilateral. group .and we wouldn't - I mean they

would be the Mexicans and they would be cut out between them

and, I presume, and Goodpasture. We did not have any direct

contact with those people. The only people we were in touch

with were Boris and his wife.

Mr. Goldsmith. If there was any special procedure then

for asking the Spanish transcribers to expedite something it

would be an arrangement worked out between the Spanish trans

cribers and Goodpasture or whoever the Spanish transcribers'

contact was?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. There was no need to expose anyone

at the station to those people except through the designated

person.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning now to the photo-surveillance

operation, do you know what buildings were the subject of that

operation?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. The Soviet Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. And the Conulate building also? Was

there a difference between the Embassy and the Consulate?

Mrs. Manell. I have seen photographs but I am not clear

now whether that was separate or whether it was

a section of

the building.

I am

not sure now whether it was just one huge

building on Tacaubya. I am not sure whether that was one

building or whether it was a building with a separate consulate.

I know. that the Commercial office was located there, the

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Consulate and the residence.

Mr. Goldsmith. Basically there was

a Soviet compound?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Which consisted of their various

offices?

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. It was essentially the compound that was

under photosurveillance?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how many cameras or photo-

sites there were surveying the Soviet compound?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know the number.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a similar photosurveillance

operation in effect against the Cuban Embassy and Consulate?

Mrs. Manell. I would presume so but I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review photographs from the

surveillance operation?

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have occasion to see any

of them?

Mrs. Manell. If I ever saw them they were ones that had

been selected and. shown to me by Ann Goodpasture for some

reason or other.

Mr. Goldsmith.. As a matter of routine you would not be

reviewing those materials.?

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Mrs. Manell. No. I don't believe any case officer at

the station could just go in and

rifle through those files.

They were considered very sensitive.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Was Ann Goodpasture's responsibility

to review those photographs for the purpose of evaluating

their technical quality or for the purpose of determining

whether a person of interest, of significance, had been

photographed?

Mrs. Manell. I would think it would be both. She

was

a photographer then. She supervised the development of the

films. that were done right inthe station. I would say both.

Mr. Goldsmith. Her responsibility was not just a tech-

nical nature?

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, my

understanding is that you reviewed the transcript as a matter

of routine every day?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. But the photographs' you did not review

as a matter of routine?

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. By everyday, seven days a week or just

working days?

Mrs. Manell: Working days, give days a week.

Mr. Goldsmith. Monday through Friday?

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Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was the photosurveillance operation

against the Soviet compound in effect 24 hours adday?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know.

I don't think they had

capability of shooting at night.

Mr. Goldsmith. During all daylight hours?

Mrs. Manell. I am not specifically clear on this but I

think they had some time off.. I am not sure whether they were

on on weekends.. I don't know. I had better not say, I am

not sure, I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about working days, was the opera-

tion in effect only during the hours that the Embassy and

Consulate were open?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know. I really know next to

nothing about the photographic surveildänce. There is no

point in my trying to dredge up vague ideas that I have b

because I was

never told.

Mr. Goldsmith. You can see I am notepressing you.

Mrs. Manell. I will just confuse the issue, it is not

clear in my mind so there is no point in my just rambling on

and trying to dredge up something. I was never told.

Mr. Goldsmith. Right. For that reason, I am not press-

ing you. Youstell me if you don't know. and that will be fine.

Do you know whether there was coordination between the photo-

surveillance operation and the wiretap operation?

Mr Bo

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Mrs. Manell. I don't quite follow the question.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us say the person monitoring the

tap operation picks up a conversation that is very interesting.

Wouldnhe be able to contact the photosurveillance people and

say, hey, something is up.

Mrs. Manell. I would presume that is the purpose.

I

would presume that one would have to, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would they do that directly or would the

they do it through an intermediary?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. How much coordination was there between

the Soviet operationnand the Cuban operation?at the Mexico

City station?

Mrs. Manell. I would think that if our interests coudd

coincided there would be, but in general we worked within our

own shops.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did your husband meet as a matter of

routine once a week or everyday with Dave Phillips?

Mrs. Manell. I don't think so but you will have to

ask him.

As I recall, I think Mr. Scott held weekly meetings

which might be the answer to the question but I was never

present at those. The heads of sections, as I recall were

there.

Mr. Goldsmith. ' Would Ann Goodpasture typically be there,

too?

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Mrs. Manell. I would think so, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were reports frequently sent from

Mexico City station to CIA headguarters?

Mrs. Manell: Yes:

Mr. Goldsmith. That is something that was done as a

matter of routine?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What form would the report take? Would

they be sent be cable?

Mrs. Manell. They could be sent by cable or dispatched

depending on the urgency.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is a dispatch?

Mrs. Manell. Dispatch is a letter form, the way the

information is sent out. The cable form is the brief, the

brief version of whta the subject is and then it is usually

followed by a dispatch.

Mr. Goldsmith. How is a dispatch' actually communicated

to headguarters? Is it teletyped?

Mrs. Manell. No. In a diplomatic pouch?.

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Before a report would be sent to head-

quarters what procedure would the person writing the

report follow? To be more specific, you have hypothetically

now a piece of information that you think is worthwhile"

communicating to headquarters. What steps, if any, would the

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person writing the report: take to make sure that the informa-

tion he had was complete and there was nothing else to add?

Mrs. Manell. "It depends on the type of report. If it

concerned personalities or categorized subjects, one would

check with the Registry files and dredge up all information

available on the subject. In addition to 'the particular

piece of information, one would dredge up all information

about that subject and then it might or might not be handled

by the reports officer.

If it was an original type of cable it would be handled

by the section. If it was strictly an intelligence cable,

while we might initiate it, still it would have to be handled

by the reports officer because there was a certain way it had

to be sent, certain designations and that sort of thing.

MrS Goldsmith. Most reports would be sent by the

reports officer?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, except that now and again she would

be overburdened by reports and periodically we would have tö be

sort of retrained by her in order to put all these various

designations on the cable. In general, it was done by the

reports officer.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the reports officer?

Mrs. Manell. Rose Offenbacher.

Mr. Goldsmith. Before a report would be sent, would

you, for example, ehck previous transcripts and the photo-

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production materials to make sure that in the case of tran-

scripts there wasn't additional relevant material and in case

of production materials to make sure --

Mrs. Manell. That would be more of an operational type

of cable. That would not be an intelligence cable. It would

not involve the surveillance group:

Mr. Goldsmith. What is the difference between an opera-

tional cable and aneintelligence cable?

Mrs. Manell: Well, the intelligence cable would be

something that could be disseminated within the intelligence

community and the operational cable would have to do with

operations within our own agency, I méan within what we were

working on. It would not be of any value to anyone outside:

Mr. Goldsmith. In which case would you go to check the

transcripts and photos?

Mrs. Manell. In the case of the operational cable we

would be more likely to check telephone and photos and ask

someone to check the phtos for us.

Mr. Goldsmith. What would be the purpose in having

them check that?

Mrs. Manell. To clarify the situation.

Mr. Goldsmith. Just to make sure the information you

were sending was complete?

Mrs. Manell.

That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. By an operational cable to you mean a

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cable that pertains to an operation that Mexico City station

has in effect?

Has

Mrs. Manell. Or thinking of developing. ' In other words,

it is not of interest to the general intelligence community.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were most of the cables that you sent

to headquarters intelligence type cables or operational cables

if you know?

Mrs. Manell. Operational cables because they would be

information on various cases that we were working on, that

our section would be working on. Dispatches would be sent.

The intelligence cables would be much rarer where we would have

a piece of information of general interest to the intelligence

community.

Mr. Goldsmith. In most cases, since most of the cables

were operational cases in most cases it was a matter of

routine, you would check the transcripts; the photo-production.

materials and anything else you thought was relevant before

sending the cable?

Mrs. Manëll. Yes.

I am trying to think.

I really

can't. think of too many: instances when I would be checking on

the telephone taps and the phtosurveillance. Really, what I am

thinking of in terms of -- say we are interested in a particu-!

lar identified Soviet intelligence officer who perhaps is

making a trip to the States; to the border. That would be an

operational cable. We would want to make people aware of that.

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We would want to mount something to have him watched if he

crossed the border, who he saw, what he did.

That would not

be of interest to the intelligence community. I would not

be checking the photosurveillance or telephone taps particu-

larly about that.

Mr. Goldsmith. What would you be checking in that

example?

Mrs. Manell. Perhaps I would have checked there, yes.

Yes, I would have had to to know that he was doing that. We

could have heard about it through other means but I think that

I most probably would check that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you have done that personally or

would the reports officer have done that?

Mrs. Manell. She would not have been involved in the

operational cable. That was done within the section." The

reports officer had to do only with the intelligence cables,

not with the operational cables. They were handled within

the various sections in the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. In that case, the person who would

check

up on the transcripts, for example, would be the

particular person who was in the section sending the cable?

Mrs. Manell. I would think so, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall doing that yourself on

occasion?

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Mrs. Manell: Oh yes, that, but not checking, I did not

just check photographs when I wanted to, I would go to Annie

on photographs. The rest of it, the

telephone materials,

would find already filed in the various files that they

belonged in, in "p" files, subject files or whatever, or I

could go

to the runs, the chronological runs that were kept,

of the bilateral telephone operation.

Mr. Goldsmith.. By runs, what do you mean, the trans

scripts?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. I am sorry.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is a P file?

Mrs. Manell. A P file is a personall file.

Mr. Goldsmith. . That is a local file kept at the st

station?

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Its counterpart at headquarters would

ge the 201 file?

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do all CIA stations maintain P files

or is that

really a procedure that was instituted by Win Scott

in Mexico City?

Mrs. Manell.: They have their own terminology for it

but everyone would have personal files, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Every station as a matter of routine

would have ==

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Mrs. Manell. The equivalent of a 201 file.

Mr. Goldsmith. They may not necessarily refer to it as

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a P file?

Mrs. Manell. No, I think they wouldn't. I have served

in other stations and theyndid not call them

• P files there.

We did in Mexico City.

Mr. Goldsmith. What criteria were there for deciding

whether a report should be sent to headquarters? How did you

decide in other words, that something was sufficiently signi-

ficant to send

a report?

Mrs. Manell. A lot of times we didn't decide becäuse

the reports officer had access to a lot of the material that

we would have and she would have already made a decision about

what was appropriate and what wasnit. It would be things that

we developed that she would not be aware of that we would

bring to her attention.

Mr. Goldsmith. Even so, I am sure there was a lot of

information you had both of an intelligence nature and an

operational nature. Did you send a cable for each particular

items f information to headquarters?

Mrs. Manell: It would depend on whether it was a matter

of urgency of not.. I would say we sent him more dispatches

than we sent cables.

Mr. Göldsmith. Cables suggests that the information is

more important =-

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Mrs. Manell.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Than dispatch?

Mrs. Manell.: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Would a cable reflect the particular

item being urgent?.

Mrs. Manell.. Yes. I can think of instances where it

might not. I would think in general that is the method. that

one would use, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. In general if something was of routine

significance it would ge sent to headquarters by means of

dispatch?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Iffit was non-routine, it would be sent

by cable?

Mrs. Mänell.'.Yes. Are you leading up to anything

specific? I may not be on the same wave length that you are

on.

Mr. Goldsmith. In response, I really can't tell you what

I am leading up to if anything. However, I want to assure you

that I will give you an opportunity to clarify any answer you

have given to me.

Mrs. Manell. It is just that I thought you would have

known about cables and dispatches.. I am wondering, you know,

why

non, one

Mrs Goldsmith. I have to state first that by means of

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this procedure I am not really authorized to answer questions

asked by a witness but I will certainly give you an opportunity

to clarify or expand on any answer you have given.

Secondly, to answer your question in part, although we

have had

an interview before, the purpose of the deposition i$

to put all of this on the record. In fact, many of the

questions I have asked you I know what the answer is but the

purpose is still to put it on the record..

Where would the cable go, once it reached headquarters?

Mrs. Manell. That would be up to headquarters to decide.

Mr. Goldsmith. You would send it to the central office

• in headquarters or central desk?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. The person at-that desk would -

Mrs. Manell. We might decide at the station that it

should go to other stations as well. We could make that

decision locally.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that most of the 1

information that you and your husband sent to headquarters

would have gone to the Soviet RussiacCounterintelligence

Section?

Mrs. Manell. It would have gone first to the Western

Hemisphere Division because we were under them. That was

their bailiwick. We were under them geographically.

It is true that my husband was in the Soviet Section.

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It was carried that way not for that reason, because it was

of interest to the Soviet Section they would be automatically

made aware of it, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would it also go to the Mexican

desk?

Mrs. Manell. Within "WH"?

Mr. Goldsmith. To your knowledge, was information also

transmitted to headquarters by means of

"telephone?

Mrs. Manell. I would guess it could be but I would

think it would be rather rare.:

Mr. Goldsmith. Why do you think it would be rare?

Mrs. Manell. For security reasons and also - you know,

for a matter of record generally things want to be put on

record.

Mr. Goldsmith. If someone wanted to aovid@putting

something on the record, would he make a telephone call?

Mrs. Mänell.l:. I guess anybody could always pick up

the phone.

Mr. Goldsmith.:

Have you ever heard of the term wun

"Unaccountable Bough?"

Mrs. Manell. I have heard the term, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what that means?

Mrs. Manell. I guess unnumbered pouch. I don't speci-

fically know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what it was used for?

Mrs. Manell. No, I don't.

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Mr. Goldsmith.. Did you ever use one yourself?

Mrs. Manell. No:

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you

aware of any other manner in

which

a non-record communication could have been done?

Mrs. Manell. No. As I said before, anyone could pick

up a

telephone

I mean obviously there were rules, we would

not just pick up a telephone and call headquarters about

anything. We were not permitted to do that.

We would not

do that. What I mean was that, well, I mean if the Chief öf

Station, for example, wanted to call someone in headquarters,

I am sure he could pick up the phone and

call them.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if he ever did that?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know.:

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know Charlotte Bustof?

Mrs. Manell: No. The name is familiar to me and I

understand she works in WH Division but I was never in WH

Division so I don't know her.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know that in 1963 she worked on

the Mexico Desk?

Mrs. Manell. I have heard that said, yes. I think the

last time we were together, when I was interviewed the first

time, here

name was mentioned.. But other than that, I don't

know of her.

Mr. Goldsmith.

What would be standard operating procedure

at headquarters upon receiving a cable? How would they respond?

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Mrs. Manell. I don't know how to answer that question.

I don't know what you mean.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would they typically respond to a cable?

Mrs. Manell. Oh, yes.

I thought you meant within head-

quarters what was their movement.

Mr. Goldsmith. I may get to that later on.

A cablessent to headquarters.

Mrs. Manell. If it was something specific and we wanted

an answer, yes, they would answer, mostyprobably by cable,

since we had sent it

that way. Saying "Dispatch follows" is

how they would normally do it because there would be probably

more than they wanted to put in the dispatch.

Mr. Goldsmith.

How long. did it generally take to get a

response from headquarters?

Mrs. Manell. I think there is a rule, I don't know,

thinking back many years ago when I was first in that, a cable

had to: be answered within a certain set amount of time.

I

don't know what that is. In other words, "it would require

a fast response, as fast as possible.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like now to get into the

procedure

at headquarters to the extent that you are aware of

it. Once the cable came in who would make the decision as to

where it would be routed?

Mrs. Manell. The person could tell by the designator

at the top who the responsible officer was for it. There

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would be designators. for area division and then for projects

and so forth. By the tone of it one could tell who was

responsible for that.

Mr. Goldsmith. The cable itself would have indications

as to who should receive it?

Mrs. Manell. If there was enough put on the tope.

"I

am getting into detail now and I am not answering your ques

tion. If it came from our section, if it came from Mexico

City station it would go to the Mexico City desk and that

would be WH Division.

Could we just wait for just one minute without putting

this all down?

Mr. Goldsmith. Sure, go ahead.

(Off the record discussion)

Mr. Goldsmith. On the record.

Who would decide whether someone high up in the Agency

should receive a particular cable?

I imagine the person

sending itein Mexico City station would be able to designate

someone high up, DCI, for example, to see it.

Mrs. Manell. Yes, they probably could, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about at the receiving end? Who

would decide that a cable is sufficiently important to go

relatively high up? By high up I mean the DCI or the head

of a particular division or the assistant to the head of a

particular division. Who would make that decision?

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Mrs. Manell. Well, the case officer certainly would

not. Youmean on the headquarters level who would

decide on

the headquarters

level who higher up in headquarters should

see

it?

• Mr: Goldsmith.& Right.

Mrs. Manell.

I would guess the head of the WH Division

the head of the division.

I mean a case officer would work

within his own section, his section head,dand depending on

what they decided together most probably - I am not sure

whether the head of the division sees every cable. : I would

suspect not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Basically it would be up to the person"

receiving the cable to bring it to the attention of the head

of the division who would then make the decision to send it

further up?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. There might be some interim discus-

sion about it. The case officer would not go to the head of

the division.

He would go to the sectión chief and from there

it would go up. It is just that GS-9s don't talk to 17s.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning now, specifically to the area

. of

Lee Harvy Oswald, do you know whether the Tärasoffs or anyone

else at the Mexico City station ever attempted to do a voice

identification of Oswald's voice?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, listening to a tape of

the

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the conversation and deciding whether or not the voice on the

tape was. Oswaldls?

Mrs. Manell.

You mean because they had something to

compare it with?

Mr. Goldsmith.

You might have something to compare

It with, you might, not.

Mrs. Manell.

I don't see how they could.

Mr. Goldsmith.

For

example, you might have one tape.

Iffyou had Oswald's voice on TV you cöuld obtain that tape

recording and you could -

Mrs. Manell:

That is what I say, if you are compring

it with something else.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if any type of voicé compari

son was ever made?

Mrs. Manell.: I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith.

If it had been done would you have known?

Mrs. Manell. Maybe not.

I was not there full time as

you recall. i don't know:

Mr Goldsmith.

I would like to refer your attention now

to. CIA document number 208 which is cable number 7025 and I

would like to ask you to read paragraph number 4.

Mrs. Manell.

That is 42

Mr. Goldsmith. It says W. J. Feinglass.

I think it

refers to Boris. According to that it suggest that a voice

comparison was made.

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Mrs. Manell. If he says so, it was.

Mr. Goldsmith. But you don't have personal knowledge

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of that?

Mrs. Manell. No.

You could ask my husband about that.

I

am sure he knows.

Mr. Golasmith. Before we move on, W. J. Feinglass would

be a pseudonym for Boris?

Mrs. Manell. I presume it was.

Mr. Goldsmith. W. J. Feinglass would be a pseudonym?*

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Pseudonyms. are routinely used by the

Agency?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What would be the purpose of using the

pseudonums?

Mrs. Manell. To conceal their real identity in traffic

Mr. Goldsmith. So if this cable were --

Mrs. Manell. - wereintercepted -=

Mr. Goldsmith.

- no one would know who w. J. Feinglass

refers to?

Mrs. Manell.: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does the Agency have a practice of

having its employees, specifically case officers, use opera-

tional aliases?

Mrs. Manell. I wouldn'tysay,so,

. no..

"It is done in

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specific instances.

Mr. Goldsmith. If a case officer has a contact with an

agent would he use his own name or would he use his pseudonym?

Mrs. Manell. He would never use a pseudonym. This was

strictly for cable traffic. He would not use that at all.

That was for cable and dispatch traffic only within the Agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would he use his own name then?

Mrs. Manell. He would use an operational alias in that

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Mr. Goldsmith. Would an operational alias be listed

anywhere at the Agency?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. It would be listed in the contact

reports which would be made routinely and would be well docu-

mented.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the Agency has any

central files indicating which operational aliases were being

used by its officers?.

Mrs. Manell. Well, they could check back to the station.

I don't know. I would think that if they got the contract

reports, at one point I know earlier we did not always send

contact reports when I was at other places. "But I think

that

for quite sometime in this period, contactereports were

required to be forwarded on a monthly or tri-monthlybasis.

Mr, Göldsmith. You don't know whether they maintained

any kind of centralized file?

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Mrs. GManell.

It would be recorded, it would always

be recorded in some fashion or form either in'a contact report

- I don't know that there was a file as such maintained in

the Embassy listing the aliases. But 'it could be carded

most probably and then

retrievable.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Getting gack to our friend Mr. Oswald;

when was he first drawn to your attention?

Mrs. Manell. Through the bilateral transcriptions.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, you read a transcript involving

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Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith., Do you remember what that transcript

said?

We will give you a chance to look at the transcript

in a moment. Do you remember offhand whatethe substänce of

it was?

Mrs. Manell. I know he was in touch with the Soviet

Embassy by telephone and he was asking about a letter, a visa

as I recall.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was the Oswald contact with the

Soviet Embassy considered to be unusual?

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why not?

Mrs. Manell.:

Well, there were cases of other Americans

who contacted the Embassy for various reasons:

We were only

obliged to report the contact of any American with the Soviet

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Embassy .:

Mr. Goldsmith. So in Oswald's case it was just a

routine contact by an American as far as you were concerned?.

Mrs. Manell. 'Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. If that is the case, then why was the

case sent concerning Oswald?

Mrs. Manell. That is why I asked you that earlier,

because in the case of Americans we were reguired to send it

by cable and not by dispatch.

Mr. Goldsmith. " Was that a written regulation?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know if it was written but it

was

understood at our station that any Americans who were in touch

with the Soviet Embassy that that fact had to be known to

headquarters by cable. It was always sent that way, whether

we considered it very unimportant or routine or not. So

there must have been a regulation but I am not aware of it.

Mr. Goldsmith. I guess then if we were to review the

Mexico City station cable traffic to CIAeheadquarters we

would find a lot of cables reporting contact by Americans?

Mrs. Manell. You would find others, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Each case the person identified himeslef

or you had established identification?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. In Oswald's cases how did you know he

was an American?

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Mrs. Manell. I guess the person listening. to the tape.

-- I don't recall whether it was in Spanish or Russian or

what.: I don't recall. As I recall, I saw it in English.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us take a look at that transcript

now ..

I would like to refer you to CIA

document number 13.

Please take a look at this.

Te wee 1s

Mrs. Manell. It was in Russian.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are looking at an English transla-

tion of a Russian conversation?

Mrs. Manell.. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is thê. date of the transcript?

Mrs. Manell. I October 1963.

Mr. Goldsmith. That means that the converstation was

had on 1 October 1963?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. It took place according to the tran-

script sometime after 9:55 in the morning, is that correct?

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. In that transcript the person talking

identifies himself as Lee Oswald, is that correct?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. Based upon that transcript, is this the

transcript that prompted the cable to be sent to CIA head-

quarters?

Mrs. Manell.: I presume it was.

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Mr. Goldsmith. We will give you a chance to look at all

the transcripts.

Mrs. Manell.

I am sure this must be it, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What indications if any are there on

this transcript that Oswald was an American?

• Mrs. Manell. Well, he says he speaks in broken Russian

He could tell from that probably what "nationality the person"

was and the name Lee Oswald sounds American. It is not a

Mexican name certainly.

He says "and spoke in broken ssiant. If it were a

Spanish person speaking broke Russian or English person

speaking broken Russians the transcribers would know. The

accents are different..

Mr. Goldsmith. The transcriber does not indicate

whether it is an American speaking broke Russian or a Spanish

person speaking broken Russian.

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. It indicates whoever was talking was --

Mrs. Manell. = speaking in broken Russian, right.

Mr. Goldsmith. I notice that there is some writing

on the bottom of the page.

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is that?

Mrs. Manell. It means that this came from the Russian

Embassy. This I presume is the telephone. This is theadate.

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These are -- I am not sure whether that would be the lines

whereethat occurred.

Mr. Goldsmith. On the tape?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. "I don't know..

Mr. Goldsmith. The last line would be the time?

Mrs. Manell. Is that it?

MresGoldsmith. 0921 to 1320.. I hotice there is no

routing indication on this transcript. Is there any reason

why that would be the case?

Mrs. Manell. I am wondering if this was the original

one.

I worked from the copy. It would have to be.

Mr. Goldsmith. In part it would seem this is the

original because it has the handwriting on the bottom of the

page..

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Whose handwriting is that? Can you

tell?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why there are no routing

indications on the transcript?

Mrs. Manell. I have to say this must be the reason, that

htis was the original of the transcript and that this would

be what would be in the files, the chronological files that

were kept.

Mr. Goldsmith. The routing indications would normally

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go on one of the copies?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, the original would not typically

be

marked up at all?

Mrs. Manell.

That would be my guess from seeing this,

yes.

You see, tit says page l; copy number li so that must

be what it is. You see, the kind that went through the

station that were routed around would have various people's

names and filed so and so at the bottom.

Mr.. Goldsmith. What you are referring to here as the

bottom, it says HSCA in caps. That refers to this Committee,

House Select Committee on Assassinations, that was put on

later.. What action did you take after seeing this transcript?

Mrs. Manell. I think I was the third of beyond person

who saw it. It was broguht to my attention by the Chief, the

Head of the Soviet Section; and by Ann Goodpasture who was

discussing this and who was going to notify headquarters and

do the memorandum. I think there was a bit of discussion äbout

whose responsibility it was. As I recall, I was told

to write

it up.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why was there discussion about whose

responsibility it was. " rin

15aB

Mrs. Manell. I think because when it was an American

itesorttofffell between whether we should have to do it,

whether it was our responsibility to send this up because it

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had to be accompanied by a memo and it took time, or whether

it was Ann's responsibility. It was just a little, not argu-

ment, but a discussion about, well, "you do it, I don't want

to. do

it, you handle it", and I had to do it.

Mr. Goldsmith. This would have been accompanied by a

memo?

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Mrs. Manell. Yes. This type of thing, the cable would

be written and at the same time the internal memo would be

given to the Ambassador and whoever else should be notified

about this.. In this ase the legal attache at the Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would a dispatch with more information

follow?

Mrs. Manell. No, I don't think so. There was enough

to make this -- that he was an American --'it was enough to

make it a matter of record that he as"an American was in

touch with the Soviet: Embassy and to give the gist of the

conversation.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did Dave Phillips have anything to do

with this cable, with this transcript at that time, in October

1963?

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Mrs. Manell. I thought at that time that he had, that

he was head of propaganda, covert action as they called it,

propaganda type responsibility. I know later he became head

of the Cuban Section but: I am not sure just what timing there

was

there. I thought at this time he was. head of

the Covert

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Action.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember ever discussing the

cable with hime?

Mrs. Manell. I did not.

Mr. Goldsmith. What action did you take after seeing

this transcript?

Mrs. Manell. I wrote the cables for headquarters and at

the same time I attached the cable, I wrote the meo to be

distributed&to the Embassy and sent them both forward to

Mr. Scott. That is the way we had to do it. You could nót

send the cable first and memo later. They had to go out

attached. So he saw that there was a complete package:

Mr. Goldsmith. I recall from the interview that we had

that you basically reviewed transcripts in'a chronological

order, is that right?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

t. ....

Mr. Goldsmith. So you reviewed the transcript from the

20th, the conversation that took place on the 20th before

you reviewed transcripts of conversations that took place on

21st?

Mrs. Manell. I would say so.

Mr. Goldsmith. Here we have a conversation that took

place on 1 October 1963 but presumably by then you have seen

transcripts from September 1963?

Mrs. Manell. I would think so.' It would not have to

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be but I would say so, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Based on the routine procedure you

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followed?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, prior to sending the cable did you

check earlier transcripts to see if Oswald's name had come

up earlier?

Mrs. Manell. I don't think we did that. I have a very

good memory and I have a trained memory and I would remember

if his name had come up previously and it had not. However,

I did do a check of our files, a thorough check of the files.

I also inquired of the Chief of Registry about whether he had

seen this name recently, whether he was making up a P file

or whatever. I might have looked into the Soviet contact

file.

Mr. Goldsmith. You said you did a thorough check of

your files. What would you be looking for?

Mrs. Manell. I would be looking at the card index to

see if we had a card on him which would indicate what files

you could find the information in.

Mr. Goldsmith. P file or subject file?

MrS. Manell: P file or subject file, yes.:

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you link Oswäld to any --

Mrs. Manell. And I looked at unfiled stuff too, as I

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recall.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Did you link Oswald to any earlier

contact to either the Soviet or Cuban Embassy or Consulate?

'Mrs. Manell. No.

There was nothing to indicate that

when I did make my check.' I did a thorough check as I always

did. There was nothing to indicate that.

I looked in the

unfiled pile of things to be filed which could be quite.

considerable since Mr.. Scott did keep almost every scrap of

paper that went through the station and there was nothing on

him at that time.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you check the photo production

materials?

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. This was an operational cable was it

not?

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Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. I thought earlier you said that el

Mrs. Manell. I did not look at those files, no.

we sent cables, I know that we said that we did look at a

When

photograph but I did not get that photograph out. Ann got

the photograph. I told you before that we jut did not riffle

through those photographic files. They were very sensitive.

Mr. Goldsmith. You also said before, however, as I

recall, that as a matter of procedure with regard to opera-

tional cables

you would check transcripts.

Mrs. Manell. Yes. But since I was reviewing these on a

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constant basis and since my memory was excellent then, I had

a trained memory for dredging up information about people,

I would have remembered if his name had come up.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about if his name had not come up

but if there had been a contact by someone else, a contact

by someone with either the Cuban or Soviet Embassy in which the

person was seeking a visa?

Mrs. Manell. I would not see the Cuban transcript.

However, Mr. Scott saw all transcripts.' I don't know how

many Annie saw. I don't know what she had to do with the

Cuban transcript. But Mr. Scott definitely and I presume. some

other people in reading them would have seen the relationship.

I did not see it because I did not read their transcript.

As I say; I did a thorough check of the files and there was

no indication of any other information on Oswald at that time

including infuled material.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us take a look at that cable now.

I would like to refer you now to CIA 178. I believe this is a

cable dated 8 October 1963. Is that correct?

Mrs. Manell. Yes:

Mr. Goldsmith.'

Is this the cable that you sent?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, that is the cable 'I sent.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, reading the first paragraph of this

cable it does appear that the transcript you had in mind was

this InOctober transcript which is CIA number 13, is that

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Mrs. Manell. Right. This first section would

have been

done on the basis of the transcript. The second section would

have been öffered to me by my husband and Annie. '

They would

have worked on that.

Mr. Goddsmith. Now, turning from the cable back to the

transcript here it says in brackets, comment by the trans-

lator, the same who phoned a day or so ago and spoke

in broken

Russian.

Mrs. Manell. Right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Despite this indication here I believe:

your testimony is that you did not go back to check the

transcript because by virtue of your memory you knew that

Oswald's name had not come up in any earlier conversation,

is that correct?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr: Goldsmith. Turning to the second paragraph of the

cable it says "have photos of a male who appears to be an

American entering SOVEMB 1216 hours, leaving 1222 on 1

October. Apparent age 35, athletic büild, circa feet,

receding ahirline. balding top, wore khakis and sport shirt."

Can you explain how that photograph was obtained and

why reference to it was made in the cable?

Mrs. Manell. It was dredged up from the files by Ann

Goodpasture.

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Mrs Goldsmith. Not by you?

Mrs. Manell. No.

I did not have access, neither did

anyone else at the station, to go indiscriminately in those

files.

They were very sensitive.

She and

the head of the

Soviet Section discussed this and gave me these particulars

to include in the cable. She was very good at figuring out

height because she would compare them with other things.

knew the specific heights of people and she had really

developed quite an ability to do that, so I relied on here

information and put that in the cable.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did Ann think that that photo showed

Oswald?

She

Mrs. Manell. We say "appears to be". What we are

trying to do was just correlate anything that

we had.

Mr. Goldsmith. That does not quite answer

the question

Did Ann think that the photo --

Mrs. Manell. I don't know what she thought.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you talk to here about the photo-

graph?

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Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. She gave you a photo and she gave you

the information contained in paragraph 2?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know whether she gave it to me.

I know she discussed it with my husband. Which one gave it

to me I don't know..

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Mr. Goldsmith.

250:

• De

Basically you were given this informa-

tion and --

Mrs. Manell. Yes, because I did not know anything

about any of this.

Mr. Goldsmith. You were basically given this informatic

tion and you sent it to Washington and at least with regard

to the information contained in paragraph 2 you did not.

analytical work, you were just given that information?

Mrs: Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, Oswald's contract with the Soviet

Embassy, according to the cable, was on laoctober, or at least

he spoke to the Embassy on 1 October. Why did it take one

week for the cable to go out to headquarters?

Mrs. Manell. What day was 1 October and what day was

8

October?

Mr. Goldsmith. 1 October was a Tuesday.

Mrs. Manell. Wednesday, Thursday, by Friday probably

:I had it. I don't know this was the case. I can only assume

nOW.

Saturday and Sunday, we did not work Saturday and

Sunday unless we were working on something special that we

wanted to come in. Probably did not consider it that

important. It was one American. A numbereof others had been

at the Soviet Embassy throughout thee summer. I just didn't

think it was that important.

Colon

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Mr. Goldsmith. When did Ann give you the photograph

or the information?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know.

Presumably I got it the day

I wrote the cable. She probably came in -- it was really a

matter of here is another one of these things again and we

were having a little gabble about. who should sent it up

because it was a pain to do these. I pröbably, I think I

handled it as soon as I got itebut I think there was a

discussion, as I say maybe a half a day, "about who was going

to do it. It was done because it was required but it was

considered unimportant.

Mr. Goldsmith.: In his book "Night Watch", Dave

Phillips --

Mrs. Manell.. I have not read his book.

Mr. Goldsmith: Well, you should read 'it. You are

mentioned in the book.

MrS.

Manell. Really?

Mr. Goldsmith. Not by name but mention is made of you.

The gist of it was that the cable that linked the photo to

Oswald was sent out because you had read the transcript, you

had in front of you the photograph of this man, and Mr.

Phillips' words were "you put one and one together and did not

really get two."

Mrs. Manell. That may be. We say that right in here.

Mr. Goldsmith. I know, but what he said is that you

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actually had the photo.

Mrs. Manell. Well, I am not saying that the photo was

not in our shop but I don't remember specifically looking

at the photo. It could have been there. I don't know.

I

wasn't one who sat down and said I had nothing to do with

the hours or deciding the date or saying he looks 35 and

has an athletic build. I did not say any of that. I

probably saw the photograph at sometime but I did not see the

photograph when I was writing this second paragraph. Ask

Ann Goodpasture and my husband about that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Anyway, Mr. Phillips is incorrect when

he attributes any analytical work to you?

Mrs. Manell. No, I wouldn't say so. The work I did was

all analytical.

Mr. Goldsmith. Only with regard to this particular

cable?

Mrs. Manell. You mean having to do with photographs?

Mr. Goldsmith.

With this particular cable.

Mrs. Manell. Having to do with the second paragraph

of this cable about the physical description of the person

and when he entered and left, I had nothing to do with that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you read pages 140 and 141 of

"Night Watch"?

Mrs. Manell. No. I just looked at this part up here.

Mr. Goldsmith. You read page 141?

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Mrs. Manell. Yes. He does not have the facts straight:

I presume he has not seen this file.

He is doing it from

memory. I don't get excited about this at all.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Do you agree or disagree with his version

of the facts?

Mrs. Manell.. I don't agree with it... I can see -- if

you did not have this cable in front of you -- we are getting

down to the phonetics and everything else.

No, he doesn't

present the facts as they occurred there. He is doing it from

, memory obviously.

Mr. Goldsmith. It says here, "Craig's wife, " referring

to you, "incorrectly surmised that contact was made by another

person, photographed

as an individual of interest because, he

had frequented the Soviet Embassy. She was describing the

the mysterious stranger and not, as found later, the person.

making the contact. She put one (Oswald seeking visa from:

the Soviet) and one. (an unknown visit or to the Russian

Embassyl together and come up with an incorrect two..

The

assumption that the two men were the

same."

Mrs. Manell. We never said they were the same. It says

so right here. The first paragraph describes this person's

contact with the Embassy. The second section merely says,

"have photos of a male. Appears to be American", and describes

him..

We are not saying that this person is the person in the

first paragraph at all.

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Mr. Goldsmith.

Fine.

I understand that point. I think

the cable speaks for itself as you indicated.

The second. point Mr. Phillips made, however, was that

you had done the

analytical work here, you had put the tran

script together with the photograph. In fact, the photograph

•was given to you.

Mrs. Manell. That is right. The photograph was reviewed

-- I don't think, I don't see anything to be upset about this

really.

Mr. Goldsmith. There may not be antying to be upset

about but it is not accurate, is it?

Mrs. Manell. Well, it makes good reading.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it accurate?

Mrs.

Manell. None of it is accurate because there

is

no. such person as Craig or this or

that. When you get down

to this kind of thing it is not going to be accurate anyway.

Mr. Goldsmith.

There is not any such person as Craig

but we know Craig refers to your husband, Mrs. Manell, and

"his: wife": refers to you. Is his story accurate or inaccu-

rate?

Mrs. Manell. It is inaccurate.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why is, it inaccurate?

Mrs. Manell. Because we never said one and one makes

two.

We never said the subject of the cable was the same as

the person described in the second paragraph of the cable.

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We said maybe. That is all we said.

Mr. Goldsmith. I undestand that. He also said that you

were the person responsible for putting the two together.

Mrs. Manell.. In his mind. In no one else's mind were

they ever put together.

Mr. Goldsmith. So that aspect

Of it is not correct,

you were not responsible for analytical work regarding the

transcripts and the photographs, is that correct?

Mrs. Manell. I wrote the first paragraph and. I did. not

write the second paragraph.

The information in the second

@paragraph was given to me because I did not have access to

the photographs.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let me rephrase the question. Did you

in any way link

the photograph to Oswald based upon analysis

which you yourself had done?

Mrs. Manell. I never did analytical work as concerned

the photographs, never..

Mr. Goldsmith.: This particular photograph?

Mrs. Manell. This photograph or any other photograph.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to refer your attention. now

to CIA number 14 and 15. Will you please read that?

Mrs. Manell. What is the date 'of-this? The 28th?

Mr. Goldsmith. The date is September 28, 1963.

Mrs.. Manell. I did not see this at the time I wrote the

cable.

That is definite because I would have included this

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in it.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date on the transcript?

Mrs. Manell. The date on the transcript is 28 September.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are indicating that you did not see

this transcript beforehand? Is that correct?

Mrs. Manell. Wait a minute. Is this our stuff? Is

this the

Cuban stuff?

Mr. Goldsmith. Whic is it, yours or the Cuban? We need

an answer for the record.

Mrs. Manell. I know you do but I am trying to

see.

am looking at this.

This is the basis that I wrote the cable.

Therefore I could not have seen this or I would have put more

information in. Maybe I decided it was not that vital anyway.

I am not clear on it at this minute. I would say I must have

seen this after I wrote the cable and then I sent it as I

indicated here over to Shaw who was responsible for the Cuban

section of the station because I did not indicate in the cable

any connection with the Cuban Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us take it step by step and slowly.

First of all, that is the conversation that was received off

the Lienvoy type operation, that is the liaison tap operation

is that correct?

Mrs. Manell.

Wait a minute. Let me go back and let me

'think this thing over. I have not seen these files for 14 or

15 years. I know I sent here in this cable that we

are

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discussing is the information that I had then.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Mrs. Manell, we will: get to that question

later on.

Let us

do this step by step.

The first question I have is. whether this is Lienvoy type

operation?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. I thought you were trying to ask me

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Mr. Goldsmith. You are anticipating me. I may well ask

it but I have something to ask before then.

Mr. :Goldsmith.: You have to remember that I haven't

looked at these files in 15 years and I don't want to be

tricked into anything either. I want to be very forthright

and Iwant to try to remember to the best of my ability, but

I could be wrong. That is all I want to say.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.

You just indicated

that you have not seen these files in 15 years. It is true,

however, is it not, that you reviewed these files and the

specific transcript with Dan Hardway and Betsy Wolf and myself

and your husband.

Mrs. Manell. At the time. you showed me because you were

specific about showing me specific pieces of paper in the file

I.

never had access to look at the file. You pointed out

certain things.to me. This cable, for example, I remember

• seeing.

Mr. Goldsmith.

I believe at that time we showed you all

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the

transcripts. There are four or five transcripts and I

believe we showed you all of. them at that time.

Mrs. Manell. I don't remember if I saw all of them.

If

you say I did =- I am trying to put this back in chronological

order to see if this first paragraph here was complete or

incomplete. That is what I am trying to see.

Mr. Goldsmith. There

are routing indications on CIA

document number 14, is that correct, opposite Goodpasture,

Shaw? 4

Mrs. Manell. That is my handwriting.

Mr. Goldsmith: Above that?

Mrs. Manell.

That is my handwriting; Scott, Goodpasture

and Shaw.

Mr. Goldsmith.

When would you put those routing on

there?

Mrs. Manell. I am not sure. I don't know what date I

got these. I would have put them on as soon as I saw it.

As soon as 'I had seen it and did whatever I had to do with it,

then I sent. it onward to Scott, Goodpasture and. Shaw

and. to

• file.

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Mr. Goldsmith. First of all, I would like to say I

am

not attempting

to trick you here: Earlier you said that

according to routine procedure you would receive the tran-

script in chronological order?

Mrs. Manell.

Yes.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Therefore, if routine procedure were

followed in this case the transcript dated 28 September you

would have seen before the transcript dated. 1 October.

Mrs. Manell. I would say in general that would be so,

yes.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether that was the case in

this particular instance?

Mrs. Manell.

I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let me put it this way. If you received

this transcript after the October Ist one it would seem to me

that you still would have received it prior to October 8, the

date that the

cable was sent to headquarters.

Mrs. Manell. You would think so, yes, that seem logical,

but I don't know why unless I thought that wasn't that impor-

tant in the first place, that. I just wanted to get his name:

on the record. I am not clear whether I saw this because I

am generally quite thorough when I do something.

Mr. Goldsmith.: I understand.

Mrs. Manell. I just can't recall this;. I mean the

sequence of when I saw each piece. It talks here about how

he went to the Cuban Embassy. I don't mention that in here

That is why. I think I didn't see. it.

Mr. Goldsmith. If you saw this after October 8, the date

the cable was

sent?

Mrs. Manell. I would not necessarily; send a cable follow-

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up if that is what you mean. To my way of lookingat it, this

is an American citizen, yes, in contact with the Soviets, true,

not of interest to us really. He was in overt contact with

the Soviet Embassy, We sould not be terribly interested in

him except for the fact that he is an American.

Mr. Goldsmith. It does not strike you as more signifi-

cant that the American contacts the Soviet Embassy and he also

contacts the Cuban Embassy? To me that would make him seem

more significant and therefore, if you found out about this

after the time the cable was sent you would have sent another

cable.

Mrs. Manell. I did not sent another cable but I know

another cable was sent.

I didn't send it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Another cable concerning Oswald was sent?

Mrs. Manell. I think so.

Where is the whole file?

Wasn't there a cable saying he was in touch with the Cuban

' Embassy?

Mr. Goldsmith. We have not seen one.

Mrs. Manell. I am pretty sure there was.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you send that cable?

Mrs. Manell. No, I did not send the cable. When I found

out

about it I remember this, I said how come?

Mr. Goldsmith.

Who did? Do you know?

'Mrs. Manell. I don't know who sent it. I think Ann

might have. She might have sent a follow-up one with this

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information.

I know I didn't have this because I would have

been more thorough in the first paragraph. Why not put

it

all in?

If I got this later I did not handle it.:

I know

I

did not send any cable of that.

Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, will you indicate what

information is contained in that transcript that is not

inciuded in the cable?

Mrs: Maneli.

This indicates that --

wait a minute, there

is no name mentioned here, is that right?

Mr. Goldsmith. Right. That is a good point. Does this

transcript, dated 28 September, refer. to the person speaking

in broken Russian by name?

Mrs. Manell. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is Oswald's name mentioned at all?

Mrs.

Manell

No.

Mr. Goldsmith.,

Essentially it indicates a contact with

the Cuban Embassy,

the fact that he had been at the Cuban.

Embassy?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith.' That is essentially all, isn't that it?.

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Wait a minute now. Don't we say some

where there -- it could be that I did see this first.

Mr. Goldsmith. By this you are referring to the tran-

script?

Mrs. Manell. Yes:

And there was no name mentioned.

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am trying to see when Boris said that it seems as though, if

he tried to. link up the two. Let me say this:

I know, at

least I am quite sure, that there was a cable sent after this

first cable that I sent that showed that he was in touch with

the Cuban Embassy: I did not send the cable.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us move on to some of these other

transcripts.

I would like to refer your attention now to

CIA number 17 and 18, which is a transcript dated 27 September

1963, the time is 1605 hours.

Will you please read that?

There is a translation on the next page if you would like to

look at that, too.

Mrs. Manell..

. I don't remember ever seeing this.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember seeing the transcript

before?

Mrs. Manell.

I don't remember seeing it but I could be

wrong.

Mr. Goldsmith.: whose handwriting is on the lefthand

side of the page?

Mr. Scott's.

Mr. Goldsmith. To the best of your memory, prior to the

time that the cable of October 8 was sent you did not see this

transcript dated 9/27/63?

Mrs. Manell. I just don't remember. Unless I skimmed

over

it and I did not see anything, because the real meat of

the information is 1 October and this is 27 September and it

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is unnamed. I may not have. connected. them.

I don't know whether I didn't see it or I saw it and

didn't connect them.

•I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Moving back to the transcript dated

September 28, 1963, are you certain

nevertheless that

certainly before the assassination this transcript was linked

to Oswald?

Mrs. Manell. This has to be the one that was sent, that

there was a follow-up cable that was sent that showed that

Oswald was in touch with the Cuban Embassy as well as the

Soviet Embassy.:' I don't know if there is anything else that

you don't have. I don't know if the cable was sent on the

basis of this specific piece of information here or not, 'I

don't know:

Mr. Goldsmith. My question is this. The September 28

transcript you clearly saw

at some time?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. I wrote on it.

Mr. Goldsmith. My specific question, forgetting about

whether another cable was sent tó CIA headquarters, my

specific question is whether this transcript was linked to

Oswald prior to the assassination?

Mrs. Manell. What does the transcriber say about this

voice? Does he link it with - this transcript or a similar

one must have been a basis for the cable that was sent

linking --

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Mr. Goldsmith.. I really don't want you, to focus or be

concerned now about the other cable that was sent.

My ques-

tion is whether this transcript was linked to Oswald prior

to the assassination, and I am referring now to the 28

September 1963 transcript.

Mrs. Manell. I can't tell you. Is there anything here

that you see that says that this person speaking broken

Russian is the same as -- I don't see anything about the

Cuban Embassy. 'I don't understand this. I must have seen.

this after I sent this cable. I did not send a subsequent

cable.

Mr. Goldsmith.. You are certain one was sent?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. : My question really still has not been

answered. Prior to the assassination was the transcript

dated September 28, 1963, linked to Oswald?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know that!

There was some informa-

tion that was linked because a cable was sent daying that

Oswald had not only appeared at the SovietEmbassy but had a

connection with the Cuban Embassy. That is all I know.

Mr. Goldsmith.

According to the Agency's records there

was

only this one cable dated October 8, 1863.

Mrs. Manell.

I don't understand

this. I know. that there

was a link, I know that it was reported that there was a cable

sent after this. It was a cable that was sent after this

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that indicated that he was in touch with the Cubans as well

as with Soviets. I did not send the cable.

Mr. Goldsmith. Based upon that, you are saying that

Oswald was linked to this transcript of September 28?

Mrs. Manell. This or some other transcript, I don't

know. I mean this is not a complete run of the transcripts

for this period that we were covering.. You see, if you had

that

Mr. Goldsmith. You are correct, the transcripts that

we have here are those that the Agency has provided us and

said have been

linked to Oswald.

Mrs. Manell. Then this must have been the one. If that

is the case, then I am sure this is the one if that is what

they told you.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you say this is the one?

Mrs. Manell. Because this is the one that refers to the

Cuban Embassy. If they say that this is the piece of informat

tion that links Oswald to the Cuban Embassy, then this is

the piece of information.

Mr. Goldsmith. They don't say that. They have given

us all of the transcripts that they say are linked to Oswald.

Mrs. Manell.. I don't have any reason to think that there

would be more except I can't pin down and say this was the

specific one that was used as the basis for linking the two.

That is all I am saying.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Let us move on to CIA numbers 19 and.

20:: Number 19 is the transcript dated September 27, 1963,

the time is 1626 hours. Would you please read that?

Mrs. Manell. I don't understand this time sequence on

this at

- all beacuse I did not see

all of this about a wife,

about four to five months, about any of this.: It is a mystery

to me. I don't understand it. It is not that I don't under-

stand the transcript when I am looking at it. I am saying

I don't understand how these things could ante-date my cable

and not be put in the cable. That is what I am saying.. I

don't know when I saw

these. I did see this because that

is my writing there.

Mr. Goldsmith. What we have here is the situation under

which according to the standard operating procedure you

would have reviewed everything in chronological order.

We

have transcripts from September: 27 and 28, which you are now

saying you perhaps did not receive until after October Ist

or after October. 8th when you sent' the cable to headquarters.

Mrs. Manell. Yes, because there would be no reason --

why not show this? why would I not

want. to show it? It

would add more information that I wanted to send about him

even though we thought he was an unemportant: American. If

he would in touch with the Cuban Embassy I would' have said

SO:

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Mr. Goldsmith. If you sent the first cable to CIA

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headquarters why woüld the responsibility for sending another

cable be delegated to anybody else but, you?

Mrs. Manell. Maybe I wasn't there because I worked part

time. Perhaps I wasn't there. I see here he gives her

some action to take.

Mr. Goldsmith.: Who wrote that?

Mrs. Manell. That is Mr. Scott's writing.

Mr. Goldsmith. He gave it to whom?

Mrs. Manell. To Annie. That is. why I think the second

cable was written. I can't say for a certitude that Annie

wrote. it but I think she did. I know there was a cable that

was

sent that linked him to the Cubans, to the Cuban Embassy.

He is still unidentified.

Mr. Goldsmith.

It says copy to Oswald P file. This is

on CIA number 19. When would that P file have been opened?

Mrs. Manell. I would think with the cable, the first

cable that I

sent, and then all the information that häd to

do with it would be put in that file, subsequent information.

I say here "Soviet contacts.". At that point there was no

P. file established for him.. This

is where we put anyone in

touch with the Soviet Embassy including Americans.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Who wrote reference to P files?

Mrs. Manell. This is my writing here." I think that is

Herb's writing. This is' not either of our writings here.

It

is not Scott's writing,. it is not anybody's here.

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Mr. Goldsmith.

Here is the point,. that the transcript

is. dated September 27, 1963. It indicates that a copy is to

go to Oswald's P files.

Mrs. Manell. Yes, but I have "file Soviet contact"

and

somebody else put this in. I didn't know that this was a

P file, maybe I would have, I could have put it in both

places.

Mr. Goldsmith. When would this have gotten into his

P file?

Mrs. Manell. Immediately. As I told you before, when

I went into Registry I did a thorough check.:

I would have

checked all P files. I would have. checked the Soviet contact

file.

I also checked, I remember, the unfiled stuff because

we sometimes got a pile of that..

• I. found no reference to

Oswald.

Now, this of course is not definitely. Oswald at this

time. It is about an unknown person who talks about going

to Russia, about his wife and all of that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Oswald is not mentioned by name in any

of these others, is he?

Mrs. Manell. No. In any of the ones we are dicussing

now he is not mentioned by name.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Mrs. Manell, do you recall the interview

that you had with Dan Hardway, Betsy Wolf and myself?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. In that interview Dan and Betsy were

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taking notes.

Based upon the notes of what you said that day

their best

recollection was that in fact these transcripts

had been linked to Oswald prior to the assassination. Today

you are unclear about that.

Mrs. Manell. I am not talking about prior to the assas-

sination. I am talking in

terms of the cable that I wrote.

Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give me the answer in terms

of

the

assassination in particular?

Mrs. Manell. I think if the transcriber says it is the

same person speaking in broken Russian, then it must be. I

am not doubting what he is saying.

Mr. Goldsmith. I agree that it must be the same person

or it may be the same person. That still does not answer the

question whether these transcripts were all linked to Oswald

prior to the assassination.

Mrs. Manell. I am sure they must have been, yes, but I

didn't do it; that is all' I am saying. I had nothing to do

with the rest of it. I did the one thing and that is all

did on Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have made that link and put

everything in the P files?

Mrs. Manell. The rest of the information? If it came

over my desk I would have sent it to his P file. I did not

do a roundup after all of this was over with. I only wrote

the original thing.

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Mr. Goldsmith..

Who would have made the link to Oswald?

Would it have been Herbert Manell, your husband?

Mrs. Manell

I would think he and I together most -

probably because some of this is unclear.

Boris would have

had to do with

it in connecting the broken Russian with the

unidentified person.

Mr. Goldsmith. By the time of the assassination all

of these materials would have been in his p file?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. To clarify, again, to the best of your

memory, you don't recall seeing the 27th and 28th transcripts

prior to the time you sent the cable, the 10-8 cable?

Mrs. Manell. Let us put it this way, that

I did not

link them if I did see

them.

He was unnamed in it, in both

of these transcripts..

He was not named.

If I saw them I

did not think at that time that'it was the person that I

described in the cable or I would have put it in.

It is

either that or I didn't see it at the time I wrote the cable.

Then I wouldn't have written a followup because he was on

record. He was an American. I put him on record and that

is all I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you have written a followup if

headquarters had requested to be kept apprised?

Mrs. Manell. I am just trying to think if the Cubans

would have sent this. I don't understand this, that it just

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came through on our lines. I just don't think that I could

have seen these, is all. I can think of.

I was always trying

to connect this one with that one whenever possible. If I

had seen this I am sure I would have raised a lot of questions

Mr. Goldsmith. This clearly came in on' a Soviet phone?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. It would have been one of your lines?

Mrs: Manell: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith..

I am referring now to the 28 September

1963. transcript. Now, at the time of our interview, Mrs.

Manell, according to the notes taken by Dan Hardway and Betsy

Wolf you did not indicate to us at that time that you did not

see the transcripts.

Mr's. Manell. I don't think you ever asked me that

question.

Mr. Goldsmith. We certainly did.

Mrs.

Manell. You did not ask me if there was a

description. You did not suggest I was incomplete in sending

the cable or raise any question like that at all that I

remember. I mean, I am saying: that I sent everything that was

available to me when I sent that cable and I did not mention

the Cuban Embassy. I would have mentioned the Cuban Embassy

if I had seen it.' It is a point of when it was recognized,

when it was decided that these two unknowns were connected

with Oswald. That is the point;

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Mr. Goldsmith. That

is exactly the issue.

Mrs. Manell. I am just not sure. I don't know. . When

did

Boris link this up?

Mr. Goldsmith. One moment, Mrs.

Manell.

Mrs. Manell: I remember those. .

There was something

about this, the Cuban relationship becuase I remember being a

bit annoyed, the more I think this thing through, about how

come I didn't know about that. So there is something about

either I didn't get this for some unknown reason -- perhaps

they were holding it out to see if they could identify the

person. I don't know. But there is something --

Mr. Goldsmith. Why don't you wait a moment. We are

going to look up our notes, read. them to you and have you

comment on them.

I am going to read you the notes that were taken. They

refer to you by your Agency pseudonym. "Dillinger was asked

what action she took after receiving this transcript.

She

said she had already seen the prior transcripts and may have

rechecked.them. Because of the absence of information from

prior transcripts in the cable, Gestetner -- Mr. Manell

suggested that some of the prior transcripts may have been

unavailable because. they were being routed around the station.

"An examination of some of the prior transcripts revealed

routing indications that Dillinger acknowledged writing."

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

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Mr. Goldsmith. "After checking the station's files for

further information on Oswald, she said she wrote the cable

Mexico 6453"-- that is the cable dated October 8 -- "and at

the same time wrote a memo to the Legat. Dillinger ..:

acknowledged that the routing notation would have been written

on the transcripts when she first received them. Gestetner

acknowledged that a filing instruction directing one of the

9/27 conversations to the Oswald P file was in his handwriting:

He indicated that this notation would have been made at the

time the P file was opened.

"Both Gestetner and Dillinger acknowledged that the

connection between the conversations was noted prior to the

assassination."

Are those notes accurate?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. I don't believe I am contradicting

myself. It is a little confusing, I can see. I am trying

to answer to the best of my ability but all I am saying is

that when I sent the first cable, if I had known about the

connection with the Cubans or I had associated it -- I may

not have associated it because he was not named, that is the

only thing.

Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to stress again, the aim

here is not to catch you in contradictions. Please don't

misunderstand me.

We are trying to review the record and

have you explain it to us.

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Mrs. Manell. I understand. I

- will try.

Mr. Goldsmith.: Let us move on to CIA 183.

Mrs. Manell. It isn't that I am saying now that I did

not see these in sequence.

Mr. Goldsmith. You mean you may not have made the

connection?

Mrs. Manell: That is right. That is all I am saying

now in looking at this because I am thorough when I do some-

thing, you: can bet on it, and I did not see or connect these

things because he is not named in these transcripts. It is

possible I saw them in sequence but because he wasn't named

I did not think that' I could present it factually in the

cable. So I sent the cablé as I did.

It can go around and around, that is all.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, your explanation is per-

fectly undestandable.

Mrs. Manell. I am not trying to obscure anything.

Mr.. Goldsmith. Let me see if I can summarize

the

explanation for you very briefly. I don't want to put words

in your mouth. Tell me if this is accurate.

When we first went over these transcripts your first

regponse was that "I couldn't have seen these because there

is no mention made to them in the cable dated October 8.'

After we reviewed the transcript a bit more you reconsidered

somewhat and testified that you may have seen the earlier

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transcripts in sequence but that because none of those

transcripts referred specifically to Oswald by name, for that

reason there was

no reference made in the October 8 cable to

these earlier transcripts.

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith..: Is that accurate?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. In any event prior to the assassi

nation all.of the transcripts were tied to Oswald?

Mrs: Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us move on to CIA number 183. This

is a cable dated 11 October 1963 from CIA headquarters to

Mexico City station. Would you read through that?

Mrs. Manell: Do I have know the content or are you

just establishing this is the one I saw?

Mr. Goldsmith. I think you can skim it. If I have a

specific question about, the content I will draw your attention

to it. Do you remember reading that cable when it came into

Mexico City station?

Mrs. Manell. 'Yes!

Mr. Goldsmith:

whose handwriting is this in the upper

left hand portion of the page which says "sic" underscored?

Mrs. Manell: Thät is Mr. Scott's handwriting. This is

his.

Mr. Goldsmith., Also his check mark?

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Mrs. Manell.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would he have

put these marks in at the

time the cable arrived at the

Mexico City station?

Mrs. Manell.

Yes, before.

he routed

it he put those in.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, the cable refers to Oswald as Lee

Henry Oswald?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, that is why he put

"sic" because

.,had it. as Lee Oswald. He is .saying.it is Lee Henry Oswald.

It is the full name which may or may not be our man. That "is'

the way I interpret it when he put "sic"

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you interpreting the term "sic"

to mean. AKA, also known as? :

Mrs. Manell.: Not necessarily.

Iam saying this is the

way headquarters has information on Lee Henry Oswald who

may or may not be our Lee Oswald.

That

is why he put "sic".

Mr. Goldsmith. Generally the term "sic" is used to refer

to a word or a subject and indicating that an error has been

committed.

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith.

When he refers to Lee Henry Oswald and

sic is pointing to Henry do you think Scott is indicating there

was an error here, that it was not Henry, it was Harvey?

Mrs. Manell. The first time I saw this I interpreted it

to mean, and I am sure he meant that, this is headquarters

information on a Lee Henry Oswald: We reported on a Lee

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oswald. So he is saying this could or could not be.

Mr. Goldsmith. Headquarters might be mistaken, it is a

possibility?

Mrs. Manell. It is a possibility, yes. That is how I

interpreted what he wrote. Not that he couldn't be our man,

he could be, but it is just that the name is different.

Mr. Goldsmith. Paragraph 5 indicates, "Please keep

headquarters advised of any further contact or positive

identification of Oswald."

Mrs. Manell. Right. That would suggest that if there

was linage in all of that through here, I would think someone

would have written another cab le about all of this.

From

here on it was not in my hands.

Mr. Goldsmith. Please refer to CIA number 182.

This is

a routing sheet -

Mrs. Manell. Here is the date for the P file setup right

here.

Mr. Goldsmith. Whose handwriting is that?

Mrs. Manell. That is Mr. Scott's.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Mr. Scott is indicating here that a P

file should be opened up, is that correct?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. A P file would have been opened up on

Oswand shortly after October 11, 1963?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. Prior to that we would have had no

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Soviet contact

information on him.

Mr. Goldsmith.. I would like to show you now CIA number

181 which is the headquarters copy of the October 1l cable.

It indicates that Thomas Karamassines was the releasing

officer.

Mrs. Manell.

Yes:

Mr. Goldsmith. Why would Mr. Karamassines be the releas

ing officer?

Mrs. Manell.

I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Do you regard that as unusual, someone

high up in the organization "being a releasing officer?

Mrs. Manell. Perhaps because all, of the other agencies

are involved. I don't know. You would have to know what

the rules and regulations are.

Maybe because these various

people were involved.

That may have something to do with

why he released it.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, those other agencies would not as

a matter of routine be notified when an ordinary American

contacts the Soviet Embassy?

Mrs. Manell: No. We would routinely notify the Attache,

our headquarters would. have been notifed by cable and it would

have been their responsibility. to notify appropriate authority

Mr. Goldsmith. By the time this cable reached Mexico

City. it was clear that CIA headquarters anyway considered

Oswald's contact to be fairly significant, perhaps. by virtue

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of his background as a defector. Is that an accurate

state-

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ment?

Mrs. Manell.

I guess so.

I wasn't involved in all of

this.

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Mr. Goldsmith. They certainly considered it sufficiently

important to notify all these other agencies?

Mrs. Manell: Yes. Looking at his background, the fact

that he had been in the Soviet Union and married a Soviet

woman, there was something strange about him.

Mr. Goldsmith. This particular cable, referring to 183,

the first paragraph, contains a correct. "description of Oswald,

does it not?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know. I don't know, I never did

read how tall he was or anything else.

Mr. Goldsmith. It contains a description that the

Agency had on file for Oswald?

Mrs. Manell. For a Lee Henry Oswald, right..

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether at that time anyone

at Mexico City station "went back to" the photograph to see

whether they matched?

Mrs. Manell.. I couldn't answer that.

I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith.

on number 183, in the margin it says

24 years old.

Mrs. Manell. I don't know whose writing that is.

I was

looking at that.

This is the same writing. I don't know who

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wrote that.

Mr: Goldsmith. Is it possible that it is Ann Goodpasture?

Mrs. Manell. I don't think white wrote like that. It:

is not Scott's writing, it could have been white's, it could

have been Good pasture's.'" It is not mine. It is not Herb's

beacuse I know his writing. It could have been someone in

files.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, number 182 asks about photos.

Mr.

Scott indicated -

Mrs. Manell. Yes, and put all data we have into it and

then he has a question mark, photo.

This goes to the file.

That is me.

Mr. Goldsmith.

This is action per paragraph 5 taken

October 1963?

Mrs. Manell. It looks like 15, it is 15 or 13.

Mr. Goldsmith. I believe Ann Goodpasture wrote "we

should ask headquarters for photo." She is in paragraph 4?

Mrs. Manell. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. This says action was taken?

Mrs. Manell. I took that. That is my writing. So we

wrote up memos.

Mr. Goldsmith. This here were it says "action per

paragraph 4 taken'. does that refer to number 4 over here?

Mrs. Manell. Action per para 4 means down here:

Mr. Goldsmith.

The cable?

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Mrs. Manell. Yes.

I wrote that. That is my writing.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, I am referring you to CIA 185.

This is a cable to the Director.

Mrs. Manell.

I don't know. I imagine Ann wrote that,

or Herb.

Mr. Goldsmith. This is a cable asking for the photo?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

I didn't send it. I think Ann did

because she was told to by Mr. Scott, he put "photos

question mark.". So that would have been her job.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who wrote this over here?

Mrs. Manell: That is my handwriting.

Mr. Goldsmith. Referring to action taken?

Mrs. Manell. Yes. This paragraph here in the cable

which means the dissemination.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us look at CIA number 187. Please

read through that and tell us what it is.

Would you identify

this document?

Mrs. Manell. • It is a memornadum from Mr. Scott to the

Ambassador, to the U.S. Ambassador.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who is actually the author of the memo?

Mrs. Manell. I was.

Mr. Goldsmith.

This was prepared for Mr. Scott?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. This is in reference to the Oswald

contract, is that right?

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Mr. Goldsmith. At the bottom

of the page it indicates

who else was to receive a copy?

Mrs: Manell... That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why were so many people given copies

of this memo, do you know?

Mrs. Manell. Because it was requested that we send it

to them.

Mr. Goldsmith: In other words, the cable requested that?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. .

So, the cable indicated that headquarters

was going

to be routing this to the centrally located head-

quarters of the Agency in Washington, D. C., for example,

and

that Mexico City station was to contact the agency's

local offices in Mexico City?

Mrs. Manell: Through memo, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, this memo is dated 16 October.

It

also makes no reference to the contact with the Cuban Embassy.

Mrs. Manell. Well, because we were just following and

-

doing what they told us to do. which is send this informationi

Mr. Goldsmith. Will you read paragraph 4 of the 183?

Mrs. Manell. "Station should pass info ref in para 1

to those various places."

Mr. Goldsmith..

What does that mean when it says "info

ref"?

Mrs. Manell.

Any information contained in the reference,

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which was our original cable.

Mr. Goldsmith:: Basically you, felt that your obligation

was to tell them only about the

Mrs. Manell. We sent everything but we did not put in

height, weight and all of that. Why did they need to know

that? We gave them the basic information for indentifying

the person by name.

We tole them what headquarters asked us

to tell them.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if a memo was sent to the:

other agencies when you found out that Oswald had been to the

Cuban Embassy?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were. any of these other agencies ever

notified that

Oswald was seeking a visa?

Mrs. Manell. We notified them as indicated here.

Mr. Goldsmith. This does not really say he is going to

get a visa though, referring to number 197.

Mrs. Manell. What do we say in the cable? Did we say

it was a visa?

Mr. Goldsmith.

to a telegram.

Here is the cable, it makes reference

so the cable does not refer to a visa.

Mrs. Manell:

Except we talk about consul.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Would a consul be responsible for grant-

ing a visa?.

• Mrs: Manell. You:might think that. I think the logical

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thing would be to think that.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Essentially your memo to the Ambassador

gave in

substance the information that you had sent to head-

quarters in your cable with some additional information?

Mrs. Manell. Yes, the information that headquarters

asked us to send in addition.

Mr: Goldsmith. Paragraph 3 says. "This office will.

advise

you if additional information on this matter is received."

Do you know whether that information was ever sent?

Mrs. Manell. I don't know. I don't remember sending

anything, I know.

.:'..

Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, if at the time the P file

had been opened up all the transcripts had been tied into

Oswald, by then it was known that Oswald was requesting a

visa; wouldn't that be a

fair statement?

Mrs. Manell: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Yet the memo to the Ambassador does not

refer to that. Is there any particular reason why?

Mrs. Manell. Because we handled it and we were very

careful in what se sent people. We sent them factual infor-.

mation.

We were told what to send and that is what ve sent

based on

the original cable and the additional information.

did not reword it, in other words.

Mr. Goldsmith. You made an affirmative statement that

you have no clarifying information.

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Mrs. Manell. That is the way we decided to send it out.

I don't know whether it is oversight on my part. Whether we

just wanted to get it on the record or what, or did we want to

give a whole grocery list about this man, I don't remember

what went through our minds. I don't remember discussing it

with anyone. Maybe I made the decision not to include the

grocery list but give a bare outline. I did what headquarters

asked me to, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Goldsmith. The paragraph also indicates that you

determined that Oswald had been in contact with Kostikov.

Mrs. Manell. That is mentioned in the transcript.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did you determine that?

Mrs. Manell. It said so in the transcript. I just

finished reading it awhile ago. He is identified here.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are looking at the transcript of

October lst?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA number 13, which is the

transcript from October lst, is there a reference there to

Kostikov?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Referring to CIA number 177, the cable

dated October 8, here it reports that Oswald contacted the

Soviet Embassy on 29 September. He spoke with consul whom he

believed to be Kostikov. My question is; how would you get

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from someone whom you believed -

Mrs.. Manell. We

knew it was Kostikov.

He was in the

Consulate Section.

That is a description of him.

Mr: Goldsmith. How did you know that? You knew that

Kostikov was in the Consulate Section?

Mrs. Manell. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Weren't there any other people in the

Consulate Section that Oswald talked to?.

Mrs. Manell. 'I don't remember the physical

description

•of Kostikov. But I knew a whole lot about him. I probably

decided that it was Kostikov.

Mr. Goldsmith. • I have no further questions.

I thank you for cooperating with us.

Mrs. Manell. Is there anything that is unclear that

I can help

in any way?

Mr. Goldsmith. Was there any additional action taken on

this matter prior to the assassination other than the cable

that you think was sent to CIA headquarters?

Mrs. Manell. I am sure there was, but I didn't do it.

I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you assist your husband with this

case after the assassination?

Mrs. Manell.. Yes, in terms of following Soviet movements

Yes, we did considerable work on that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was that the only aspect of your

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involvement?

Mrs: Manell..

As I recall, that is what ve concerned

ourselves with.:

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know anything about the 1977.

Inspector General report?

Mrs. Manell. No:

Mr. Goldsmith. Did anyone from the Inspector General's

office of the CIA ever contact you?

Mrs. Manell: I have never been contacted, never.

Mr. Goldsmith. You have been very patient, Mrs. Manell.

want to thank you for your time.

Normally when we have a hearing, we give the witness an

opportunity to make a statement. If you would like that

opportunity now, please feel free.

Mrs. Manell: I can't think of anything. I have tried

to be as forthright as possible.

Are there any contradictions

in your mind?. I can see where we had difficulty over these

transcripts. I am just not clear, I am just not clear about

time sequence.. But Iknow If I realized that this unnamed

person was Oswald andwas. in touch with the Cuban Embassy

that would have been made a part of the original cable.

There

is no question about my not including it. If I had had that

information it would have been included.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Thank you very much

Mrs: Manell. You are welcome.

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Mr: Goldsmith.. If your husband would like to come in

here, I can do a marathon, but if you would like to break for

lunch, that is fine:

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the hearing was concludea.)

I have read the foregoing pages

through

• inclusive,

which contain a correct transcript

of the answers made by me to the

• *1

questions therein recorded.

Signature is subject to corrections.

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(Deponent's signature).

I,

; Notary Public in. and

for the District of Columbia, do hereby certify that I am

notarizing and witnessing signature for the deposition of

Mrs. Barbara Murphy Manell on this

_day of

Notary Public in and for the

District of Columbia

My Commission expires

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CERTIFICAT OF NOTARY PUBLIC

I, Alfred Joseph LaFrance, the officer before whom the

foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the

witness

whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition

was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was

taken by me in shorthand to the best of my ability and there-

after reduced to typewriting under my direction, that said

deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said

witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor

employed by any of the parties to the action in which this

deposition was taken; and further that I am not a relative or

employeed of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties

thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the out-

come of the action.

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Notary Public in and for the

• District of Columbia

My Commission expires November 14, 1980

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