BUSINESS MEETING
Originator: HSCA
From: SPRAGUE, RICHARD
Document date: 1976-12-09 00:00:00
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

# DOCID-32266459

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JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10116-10104

RECORD SERIES:

NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014697

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

HSCA

FROM:

SPRAGUE, RICHARD

TO :

TITLE:

BUSINESS MEETING

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

12/09/1976

50

CIA

HSCA, ADMINISTRATION

FBI

CONSPIRACY THEORY, SINGLE BULLET

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS :

3

CURRENT STATUS :

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

09/27/1996

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

MLK material withdrawn, pp. 386-412. Box 279.

v9.1

NW 66000 Docld:32266459 Page 1

Date:

10/13/20

Released under the John F. Kennedy

Accassination Records Collection Act of

1992 (44 USC 2107 Note). Case#:NW

BROOO Date: 11-04-2021

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EXECUTIVE SESSION

ORIGINAL

EXECUTIVE SESSION

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE COMMITTEE

on

14697

014697

SELECI CONMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

Thursday, December 9, 1976

Washington, D. C.

Official Reporters to Committees

SPO

16-75107-1

EXECUTIVE SESSION

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cars

EXECUTIVE SESSION

COMMITTEE

(BUSINESS" MEETING

-

12L8

Thursday, December 9, 1976

4.SHouse of Representatives. L

Select Committee on Assassinations,

Washington, D.C. L

4 The committee met at 2:45 p.m., in Room 2247, Raybum

House Office Building, the Honorable Thomas N. Downing

tronairman presiding.

Present: Representatives Downing (presiding), Gonzalez,

McKinney, Preyer, Thone, Stokes, Anderson, and Fauntroy.

Also Present: Richard A. Sprague, éhiel counsel and

Director; Thomas Howarth, Budget Officer, and Donovan I. Gay,

Chief Researcher.

EXECUTIVE SESSION

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If chairman dorning. The comnittee will come to order..

Mr. Sprague, the next time we have one of these

executive meetings, Mr. McKinney made what I think is an

excellent suggestion i

• that when we go into executive session

we find some suitable room that we can adjourn to, to carry on

the executive session, and we won't have this delay.

Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be a great

idea to try to have an alternate room to move to.

Chairman Downing. Now, will everybody in the room not

a member of this committee staff identify themselves?

Mr. Hutton. E. M. Hutton, the Chairman's staff.

Mr. Levin. Jay B. Levin, Congressman Dodd's staff.

Ms. Caldwell. Bonnie Caldwell, Congressman Gonzalez'

staff.

Mr. Burgess. Quentin Burgess from Congresswoman Yvonne

Burke's office.

Mr. Harvey. Percy Harvey, from Congressman Ford's staff.

Mr. Spring. Hank Spring, from Mr. Mckinney's staff.

Chairman Downing. All right. Close the doors:

Mr. Sprague, suppose you begin your presentation.

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STATEMENT OF RICHARD A. SPRAGUE, CHIEF COUNSEL AND

DIRECTOR

Spague.

Mr. Chairman, before I commence that, may

bring up two other matters, first, on which I would like

to get some direction from the committee.

As I understand it, there is going to be another meeting

of this committee for purposes

of presentation of the report

that will be submitted to the Congress, this Congress.

Chairman Downing. That meeting will be next Friday, at

10L00

a.m., that is the 17th of December, at a place to be

decided.

Mr. McKinney. Mr. Chairman, could we have it at

1500 o'clock? Would anybody object? Is it going to be a long

meeting?

Mr. Sprague. I would not think so.

Mr. McKinney. I find myself in an embarrassing position i

being ranking member of the Economic Stabilization, Committees

Bill Moorhead has moved the steel price meetings three

times to accommodate the Minority side of the aisle.

Chairman Downing. I certainly have no objection to

14010 o'clock. Anybody else?

The committee will then meet at 1a00 o'clock.

"That is

Friday, December 17.

Mr. Sprague. What I would like to bring to the

attention of the committee, if I may, there is a question

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in my mind, as your chief counsel, with regard to the present

resolution that exists concerning the authrity as the base

for this committee to operate on. There is in my opinion

a grave question of constitutionality, not with regard to

the ability of the Congress to be investigating, but with

regard to the way in which the resolution that presently.

exists is worded.

4/ Frankly, because of that, I have seen that no subppena

was issued that was other than what I call a friendly

subppena, because I did not want to get in the posture where

someone was attacking it, and taking us into court on the

constitutional base that exists.

And what

I am seeking guidance on M

I would like to

be able to present to the committee, at the next session,

a sort of preamble to the resolution stating what I submit

would be the appropriate basis for this investigation, so that

if and when the matter of the constitutionality arises, we

are properly and fully bottomed. But I would not do that unless

given such direction by the committee.

Chairman Downing. Well, I think if any question exists

in your mind as to the constitutionality of the section of

the resolution, certainly you should draft a preamble, along with

a proposed resolution, which will, of course, have to be

submitted in the next session of Congress.

Mr. Sprague. At the next session I would like to present

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what I think will be a preamble there which I think would

then save this resolution, the wording of it, from subsequent

attack.

Mr.

Thone.

resolution directs itselfshon

Does this come down to whether or not that

Saty

enough to

a legislative purpose?

Mr.

Sprague. Legislative and oversight purposes, because

I think there would be problems the way it is presently

worded.

Mr. Gonzalez. Mr. Chairman, let me give you a_little

history, because this is something that bothered me at

the very beginning.

The wording that finally resulted in this resolution

was very hastily prepared, presented to me by the clerk of

the Rules Committee. I raised the point immediately, and he

said, "This is what I have

been ordered to arrange.

Do you have any suggestions?"

Well, there was one sentence that I knew was at first

blush violative it "So scratch that out." And I said,

"The rest I have my doubts, but my gosh, you want this in

today; so you can have something to meet on tomorrow." And that

is the way it got submitted.

Now, I didn't ask him what the history of the drafting

had been when he presented it.

But since then, I have been

going into that. And I for one would be very grateful if you

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would, because we may wish to think of the procedure we

may want

to follow on in January.

4) This was a simple House resolution.

We may wish

to file another for the sake of having immediate full House

consideration, so as to not lose too much time. And in that

respect, I am trying toget the picture from the Parliamentarian.

So I for one would be very grateful if you would, and we

could look it over next week.

Chairman Downing. Without objection, counsel is

directed to draft a preamble and/or a resolution for presenta-

tion at the next meeting of the committee.

Mr. McKinney. Mr. Chairman, Congressman Dodd could not

be here today, because he had to go back to Connecticut.

He asked me if I would make sure the counsel please keep in

retained the aption

the wording which left theravailability of looking into the other

assassinations. He is not suggesting we should, but he feels

perhaps we might want to as arcommittee at least put

a protective hold on materials pertaining to other political

assassinations.

Mr. Sprague. Mr. Dodd so advised me. And the other

matter that I would want to bring to the attention of the

committee

I although we are reviewing it i there has been

a letter submitted by the Civil Liberties Union in Chicago

requesting that we look into what they allege is the assassina-

tion of two people of the Black Panthers.

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380

Mr.

Anderson. Is that the Fred Hampton case?

Mr. Sprague. Yes, it is, sir. We are in the process of

at least looking that material over. And if I may at the

next session I will at least prepare a summarization

with a recommendation to the committee.

Chairman Downing. All right. That will be fine.

Mr. Sprague. The next housekeeping chore that I

just want to bring to the attention of the committee is this:

It has been suggested that assuming this investigation:

proceeds, and that there are hearings, that they are on such

a historical, note that either we arrange for a videotaping

of them, just the keeping of them as a permanent record,

or make arrangements with the news media, who undoubtedly

will be televising them, for obtaining their records.

2D5 4

I just throw that out, because I do not know what your

thoughts are on that.

Chairman Downing. Are you talking about a videotaping

of the entire session?

Mr. Sprague. Of what is our public hearings, where

witnesses are presented.

Chairman Downing. All right.

Mr. Sprague. I am not making any recommendation. I

am just bringing it to your attention.

Chairman Downing. That is not a matter we have to resolve

right now.

All right.

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Sprague. Mr. Chairman, with regard to the investiga-

tion in more detail than we have gone into, I would start with

the Kennedy assassination.

It has come to our attention that in the area of the

finding of the bullet which allegedly went through President

Kennedy and through Governor Connally, the following situation

at least had existed:

The bullet was found on a stretcher in the Parkland

Hospital..: The sequence of events was that upon the shooting,

the bodies of President Kennedy and Governor Connally were

rushed to the Parkland Hospital.

President Kennedy was on

a stretcher wheeled into what is called trauma Room No. 1,

Governor Connally into a room right across from that;

Trauma Room No. 2.

President Kennedy's condition was such that there was

nothing further that would or could be done. However, Governor

Connally was within a short space of time wheeled out of

prauma foom No. 2 down a hallway to an elevator and up two

flights to a holding room for subsequent operation.

Now, the stretcher that President Kennedy had been on

at some point was taken from frauma Room No. 1, and taken

down this same hallway, and placed against the wall, really

just before this elevator that goes from the basement to

the second floor.

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382

I An elevator operator, called an engineer, was given the

assignment of operating that elevator on this particular day.

That operator took the stretcher of Governor Connally which

is said somebody had wheeled back there to the elevator after

Governor Connally had been taken to the second floor M the

stretcher was brought back to the elevator. That operator

said he then took the elevator with the stretcher down to the

basement floor where President Kennedy's stretcher was against

the wall, and the operator said he took the Connally stretcher,

wheeled it out and placed it next to the Kennedy stretcher.

So you had, as he testified, the Kennedy stretcher next to

the wall, outwardly of the Governor Connally stretcher. That

witness testified before the Warren Commission and he testi-

fied that the bullet he found, which was the bullet that was

/

at least alleged to be this one bullet i I think you remem-

ber the pictures in terms of the condition of that bullet

M

allegedly went through President Kennedy and Governor Connally•

That bullet this witness said he found on the stretcher that

was next to the wall which would be President Kennedy's

stretcher, and there were bloody sheets there. He so testi-

fied before the Warren Commission.

Obviously if that testimony in fact is true, it does cre-

ate a problem as to how this bullet which allegedly went from

Kennedy to Connally ends up on President Kennedy's stretcher

The Warren Commission in their examination of this witness

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383

drew the conclusion that, yes, he did find this bullet, but

he was mistaken as to which stretcher he found it on. He

drew that conclusion because in the questioning of that wit-

ness they describe these stretchers as Stretcher A, Stretcher

B and perhaps could Stretcher B have been in a certain posi-

tion and the testimony was generally presented.

four reading of it is there is an indication of the with.

ness getting confused. In any event, the witness ended up

saying he was not sure on which stretcher it was found and

there are other people who said the mass of bloody sheets

were not on the Kennedy stretcher against the wall but on

the Connally stretcher outwards, so the warren Commission con-

cluded this bullet had to be found on the Connally stretcher.

I say this because obviously the question as to what

bullet where, whose stretcher could be of some importance.

A nurse came forward and told us that she was a student

nurse there on that particular day along with another person

she named as well, and she relates how they had been in the

prauma room No. I with President Kennedy and then coming out

in the hallway to go up this elevator upstairs at a point

after Governor Connally had been wheeled out of Trauma Room

No. 2.

This lady, another young lady who we have found out where

she is i unfortunately this gets into locating witnesses; she.

is over in Africa somewhere

neither of these two people had

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ever been questioned by anybody from the day of the event

until this young lady came forth to us.

# Her explanation - I did ask her, "What is it that moti-

vated you to come forth to us after 13 years?" " her response

and we have talked to her directly, I have as well, and

there is nothing kooky about this person i is she frankly

thought initially some agency of law enforcement would get

to her at some point because she is on the record as working

that day; there is nothing secret, and in the course of

time when nobody did she just kind of felt that guilt that

she hadn't said anything, and that has bothered her ever since.

In any event what she relates to us is important from

two standpoints, in our review of the thoroughness of the in-

vestigative effort that existed previously, it is certainly.

I would say surprising that since the importance of that one

bullet and where it was found becomes such an issue if it

was an issue even back then y there would not have been an

effort to find out each and every person that was present at

the hospital who perhaps saw this and interview them for

whatever they would say. It does raise some question in terms

of thoroughness in the rush to get the prior investigation

done .

She relates as she came down the hallway with her stu-

dent nurse friend to go to the elevator there was at that

time only one stretcher, and that was the stretcher next to

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385

the wall. Whether this means that Governor Connally's stretcher

had not yet been brought back or there was a later period in

time we are in the course of investigating, but she relates

that the one stretcher that was there with bloody sheets on

that stretcher was the stretcher against the wall, and on

that stretcher she does see a single bullet.

Obviously if in fact this is the same bullet that she

has spoken about, if in fact it is the Kennedy stretcher, raises

a question. This is an area we are in the process of investi-

gating at the moment.

The second area that at the moment we have been doing some

looking into involves an allegation that concerns wiretapping

by the CIA in Mexico where they picked up conversations of

Oswald. Suffice it to say

here again, I guess we have to

put it in context

)

- the CIA had testified before the Warren

Commission of no prior contact with Oswald known to them prior

to the assassination until they then checked the records after

the assassination and stated that they found a conversation

that Oswald had had in Mexico with the Russian Embassy prior

to the assassination, and they dug this out post-assassination.

That has been their position ever since.. The contention

here is that in fact there was more contact by the CIA with

Oswald than what they have disclosed.

A former CIA agent named Phillips was reported in the

press to have made some statements which if true were contrary

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to what the CIA had publicly said before the Warren Commis-

sion. We brought that former CIA agent Phillips before an

executive session of the Kennedy Subcommittee, and it was

chaired by Mr. Preyer, and Mr. Thone, and took Mr. Phillips'

testimony under oath.

I The substance of the testimony by Mr. Phillips.

and we

have the transcript; it is available

is as follows. This

could perhaps be of some importance. Mr. Phillips said that

prior to the assassination of President Kennedy the CIA main-

tained a surveillance operation in Mexico City of the Cuban

and Russian

Embassies. The unit that was responsible for

surveillance of knowing what was going on in the Cuban Embassy

Manel

was headed by Mr. Phillips, a Mr. Manate was responsible for

Mane/:

knowing what was going on in the Soviet Embassy, Marale be-

ing a CIA agent.

In addition, the CIA maintained a wiretap operation and

they were wiretapping what calls were coming into the Cuban

and Russian

Embassies, and they also had bugs in the cuban

Embassy and

were picking up some conversations in the Cuban

Embassy.

The way in which this operation ran was that the inter-

cept unit, if I can use that word, would monitor these conver-

sations. They would have a recording going on of these conver-

sations going into the Cuban and Russian

Embassies. There would

be a person listening to them as they were being recorded,

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that after these conversations were recorded they were then

taken to either a Spanish or a Russian interpretor who would

then translate these recordings and they would be typed up.

I upon being typed up, these transcripts would be sent to a

Win

Mr. Myan Scott, who though not in a technical sense in command

of that operation in fact was the person who was running the

CIA operation in Mexico. Mr. Scott would review the tran-

script and if it was a wiretap of a call into the Russian

Manela:

Embassy, he would forward that transcript to Mr. Mamalen

If

it were a wiretap going into the Cuban Embassy, he would send

that to Mr. Phillips. If it involved both, it would go from

Manel,

Phillips to Mamakes or vice versa.

The procedure upon the transcript going to Phillips at

the Cuban unit and Manale at the Russian was then to advise

other agencies of government, such as the FBI, State Depart-

ment, concerning that information if it was significant.

In matters that were more unique, a cablegram would be

Manel

prepared by either Mr.

Marrate or Mr. Phillips, which would be

routed back to Mr. Scott, and if he approved it that cablegram

would then be sent advising CIA Headquarters in Washington as

to that particular intercept, that being done in the more

unusual situation.

He also testified that these transcripts, the recordings

themselves, normally were destroyed not by just a destruc-

tion

nothing ulterior in that sense

• but by a reuse of

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these records after they had been transcribed.

Ain response to a question, would there not be a period

of time to hold a recording for the transcript to be reviewed

and perhaps a decision being made, that there might be a need

to keep that recording itself, Mr. Phillips said, yes, but

what that period of time would be and whether there was any

formal order, directive, he was not prepared to say. I sug-

gested to him, "What if we picked up a conversation in which

someone was calling and threatening to, say, assassinate a

congressman, would there not be a decision somewhere to hold

that tape, you might want to use that for evidence, maybe to

identify a voice or something?"

He said, "Yes, we would."

"What was the criteria that you would use if you heard

that an American was trying to get out of the 'country?

that be a matter to keep?"

Would

He was not prepared to say.

In any event, what Mr. Phillips said happened specifically

in regard to Oswald was there was an intercept of a conversa-

tion by Oswald to the Russian Embassy, and Oswald was in fact

calling from the Cuban Embassy. Mr. Phillips said that to the

best of his recollection

-- and there is no doubt as to the

first part of this i one part of that conversation was Oswald

advising the Russians that he wanted to get out of this coun

try, that he wanted to get to Cuba, and then to Russia.

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389

I MI. Phillips stated what I would consider in an unsatis-.

factory fashion, a rambling fashion, that it was his feeling

from the way in which the words appeared in the transcript

that Oswald was indicating that the Russians perhaps ought to

be talking to him and that they perhaps ought to give him some

aid in getting out of the country. I say to you I feel that

Mr. Phillips said it without any degree from my standpoint of

authority but that this was an attempt to get out of the coun-

try is clear.

Mr. Phillips states that as a result of that

and that

Manel

transcript came to him first and then went on to Mr. Manate

there were two things that he noted, that in this transcript it

referred to the fact that Oswald was speaking poor Russian

and there were notations typed on here of the poor quality of

the Russian that was being spoken, typed on the transcript,

and some other comments.

As a result, Phillips testified that a cablegram was pre-

Manel,

: Ha ne ly

pared by Mr. Mamalien signed by MI. Manates submitted to Mr.

Phillips and signed by Mr. Phillips, to then be given to Mr.

Scott to be sent to CIA Headquarters in Washington because

this information put it in a more unusual category.

That cablegram states Mr. Phillips specifically stated

that they had picked up this information that swald was trying

to get out of the country, seeking a visa to go to Cuba and

then on to Russia. That becomes of some significance because

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390

the cablegram that in fact was sent by the Mexican station

to

Washington omits that and the cablegram that in fact was

sent from the Mexican station to Washington merely states that

Oswald was contacting the Soviet Embassy and was inquiring

whether they had received a response to a telegram that he

had sent, whether the intercepted messages of Oswald calling

the Soviet Embassy was his inquiry about a telegram, but that

is in addition to the transcript to which I have made refer-

ence.

We have asked Mr. Phillips, "Are you positive that the

cablegram that you prepared was alerting Washington that this

supposed American was trying to get out of the country?" he

said, "Yes," He is absolutely sure as to that.

"Do you have any explanation for the cablegram that was

in fact sent?"

His response was that it seems to him it would be acts

of negligence by a number of people or a deliberate decision

by a person not to have that information conveyed.

The second aspect of Mr. Phillips' testimony that is of

some signicance

" these are areas that were investigated bring-

ing up to date this is what we are doing i in this same cable-

gram that Mr. Phillips said was prepared was a description of

an American seen going into the Russian Embassy on the date

of this intercept. This description

- we thought the liter-

ature has caused numerous problems because it is conceded by

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everybody that the photograph that the CIA used in the descrip-

tion is of a person who is not Oswald. The CIA has since said

gave

they made a mistake. The person who

pet the description thought

this was Oswald. What is important here, however, is that the

CIA records

even this transcript, Mr. Phillips' testimony

is that the person was not in any way related to Oswald going

into the Russian Embassy that day but he was in the Cuban

Embassy and the question has arisen if they are sending a

description of the person that day who made that call, why

did they give a description which in fact turns out not to be

an accurate description of somebody who is entering the

Soviet Embassy when their information is he is entering the

Cuban Embassy in which they had a surveillance operation.

9 I did ask Mr. Phillips, "Well, did you make any attempt

to ask your people who made the surveillance on the Cuban

Embassy at that time? What pictures did they take of people

going into the Cuban Embassy? What were your surveillance re-

ports?"

And he said, "No, we did not."

"Why not?"

He had no response.

The sequel to that, of course, is apparently after the

assassination when the CIA was asked to furnish what photo-

graphs they had of Americans entering the Cuban Embassy on

that day, the response was that their equipment did not work

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on that day and they have no such photographs.

4' But we did get back to the fact that under Phillips'

testimony you have a cablegram conveying information of an

American trying to get out of the country. When asked by us

whether the FBI or other authorities were notified as to that

information, he did not know. In fact, it appears that they

were not notified.. The information that appears in the cable-

gram to Washington, i.e., that Oswald was merely asking about a

telegram, that is the extent of the information that was con-

veyed to the other agencies.

When the CIA responded from Washington they of course

alerted Mexico that Oswald had prior defected to Russia and

had married a Russian wife. And I asked Mr. Phillips upon

getting that response, "Knowing this is an American trying

to get out of the country going to Cuba, which it was a vio-

lation of the law for Americans to do at that time, what

would you do?"

He said, "We would commence a surveillance of Oswald."

I said, "Did you?"

His response was, "No; we didn't."

"Well, why not?"

"Because we got word that Oswald had left Mexico and he

was back in the United States."

If this was of sufficient importance, tying in this man

trying to get out of the country, who is a prior defector, that

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393

you would have commenced a surveillance while he was still in

Mexico, what did you do to alert other agencies of the Fed-

eral Government. Whefever he was back in the United States

they should now commence a surveillance.

4/Mr. Phillips said he did not.

"Why not?"

"Because we assumed the other agencies of government

would do whatever was appropriate for them to do," but he

conceded that was only an assumption; they were told this

American was trying to get out of the country and we have

gotten access to those documents of notification to the FBI, :

the Department of State, and Immigration. None of them were

told about this part of the intercept.

What makes the area more complex at the moment, after

interviewing Mr. Phillips we dispatched two of our staff to

Mexico to contact the person who was the transcriber, the

interpreter of the wiretap, and the person who typed it, who

in fact is the wife of that translator.

We have interviewed them and they are both available at

some point to come before this committee and testify, as well

as Mr. Phillips, publicly. They have stated that, yes,

they

remember the conversation and they took it down, but no part

of it was in Russian. In fact, the translator says? RI

didn't have to translate because it was in English and that

is the reason my wife took it and typed it, and we did not

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type any notes

to

this thing that the man spoke in poor Rus-

slan or any such

thing.*

I there definitely was a part of the transcript that the

wife remembers vividly which included Oswald stating that he

wanted financial assistance from the Russians to get out of

this country.

We have obtained the typewriter that this lady says per-

haps she used in the typing here of the transcript. We went

to get the documents and submit them to these people, our

people, for them to look at, determine whether these are the

transcripts; are these different transcripts. We want to

find out what were the original cablegrams that existed and

find out why the change.

I might say this in addition. This area is apparently

sensitive enough to the CIA that although I have not yet

been

cleared, none of our staff in the security classifications,

the CIA contacted me and on an ad hoc basis granted an immedi-

ate clearance to have me look at what they submitted were

the transcripts of these conversations in their reports con-

cerning the Mexican operation.

I must say that what appears in their transcripts is

at variance with what Mr. Phillips has said and what the

translator and typist in Mexico have said in their transcripts.

There are markings about the person speaking in Russian,

regular writings in there of this being from a Russian trans-

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lation, which of course would be at variance with what is

there :

We are investigating this matter. That brings you up to

date as to this particular area.

Passing on for a moment, we in the Martin Luther King

case have been in touch with a lawyer, a person who was for-

merly head of the Department of Corrections in Tennessee who

has advised us of personal conversations he has had with

James Earl Ray where in one of those conversations Ray told

him that when Ray was over in Portugal, Ray, pursuant to ar-

rangements, contacted somebody to get his further instructions

as to what to do, and pursuant to those instructions he was

directed to go on to Belgium to where he was headed when he

was arrested.

Again, these are areas that we are working in.

The other area in DI. King's case at the moment, it does

appear that a police officer who had been assigned for secur-

ity for Dr. King

- had been requested as a matter of fact

by DI. King's staff to supply security in Memphis M

- named

Reddie

was called off the detail just about two hours prior

to the assassination of Dr. King.. The stories that we are

obtaining from the various individuals who appear to sponsor the

calling off are contradictory stories, one story being that

there is information of a plot to kill Reddiet and therefore

there is a need to get him out for his own security and take

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396

him away.

But the source of that plot, because

I one of the

things we are trying to do is pin down these people if there is

a plot to kill Reddieke

who is the source of that information

and see how bona fide this was, or was this merely an attempt

to get the officer away who might have been in a position to

observe and stop something.

I as I say, the stories we are getting are conflicting at

the moment and we are investigating back to find out in as

much detail as we can to then present them in a hearing be-

fore this committee.

I would say in the main that represents the limited

amount of investigative work that we are in the process

of

doing.

Chairman Downing. You did examine the guilty plea of Ray.

Have you told the committee about that?

Mr. Sprague. I believe I did, Mr. Chairman, at the earl-

ier presentation.

Chairman Downing. Mr. Gonzalez.

Mr. Gonzalez. The CIA had surveillance on both fémbas-

sies and presumably they would have two sets of conversations

because he called both, didn't he? Did Phillips know, or has

this been brought out, about the existence of two or only the

one that he might have known about?

Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman and Mr. Gonzalez, Mr. Phillips

knew of both and as a matter of fact that is one of the ques-

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tions that has arisen here, ought there not be two tran-

scripts since there were two wiretaps if the call is from

the Cuban to the Russian Embassy•

Gonzalez. Apparently they also had some type. of sur-

veillance that was taken, photographs of the people enter-

ing and leaving, and I would assume they matched. Here is

the monitor, and he has the machine going. I guess he would

be in contact with whoever was also handling the photo-taking

so they would probably i what would be the chances for an

error of that nature, because I know that the Warren Commis-

sion had been given instructions they were to be picked from

an individual to be Oswald, and obviously it wasn't Oswald.

There it would seem to me the question would be, how easy

would it be to make that kind of mistake?

MI. Sprague. Mr. Chairman and Mr. Gonzalez, one of the

Maniel

Mane /'s

things we want to do is get hold of Namale and Mums wife

because they are the ones that gave this description from.

the obvious

incorrect picture. When I say obvious incor-

rect picture, you understand it is a picture of someone enter-

ing the Soviet Embassy when the information was Oswald went

into the Cuban, so that makes no sense.

Mr. Gonzalez.. Phillips doesn't know who was operating

the photograph operation?

Mr. Sprague. As far as I recall, he does not.

Mr. Gonzalez. Is there any way that could be ascertained?

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398

Mr.

Sprague.

Yes. We are seeking to identify each and

every individual. I may say in another area that slipped my

mind, in dealing with the translator and the typist in Mex-

ico, contrary to again what the CIA has indicated at least to

the Warren Commission, not any real knowledge here, nothing

that alerted them, the typist and the translator in Mexico

acknowledged when they picked up the first intercept that

their CIA contact whom they named to us was alarmed about this

sufficiently to say to them this is very important. The

moment you pick up another intercept we have to know about

it, expressing grave concern about this matter.

Mr. Gonzalez.: For years it has been known for instance

that the Russians in Mexico have had four or five times the

number of personnel in their embassy than, say, the American

and the British combined. Do the CIA officials know of any

kind of counterintelligence where they might be taking pictures

of our people taking pictures of theirs? Because there has

been no doubt that for years they have had a vast army of

personnel, way beyond what the picture is of commercial and

other interchange between. Obviously there has been intelli-

gence here but the figure is astounding, for our five times

more.

So it would seem perhaps our intelligence efforts could

have been outdone in the case of the Russians.

Would there be any possibility of some transposing there

of information?

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Spraque. I just could not say.

Mr. McKinney. The typists you talk about, were these

Mexican of American citizens, CIA agents or just people?

What is their background?

Mr. Sprague. The background: The typist is a Mexican

and the translator, if I recall, is a former Russian.

Mr. McKinney. In other words, is it the CIA practice to

hire people like that from a foreign country and not use their

own service?

Mr. Sprague. I do not feel qualified to speak on the

practice on this point. I am advised that the head of the

Mane/

area dealing with the Russian Embassy Mr. Manale was formerly

from Russia as well.

Mr. McKinney. That was going to be my next question.

Manel

You said you wanted to talk to Mr. and Mrs. Manake; is that

correct? Where are they?

Mr. Sprague. We do not yet know.

Mr. McKinney. The CIA does not know?

Mr. Sprague. I have not pressed this inquiry with them.

Mr. McKinney. Is this one of the areas you don't really

want to press unless there is a better resolution?.: There

could be a fringe area?

Mr. Sprague. I guess what I want to do is go over their

documents in more detail because it they have eliminated any

documents, if there are materials in there that are contra-

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400

dicted by what has been established by witnesses, I want to

see what is there without going into the substance of the

area of inquiry.

McKinney. Did the Warren Commission have any knowledge

of what Oswald's financial condition was?. I have never seen

people travel around that had less financial resources in my

life.

They make me envious. Innother weds Here is this man

in Mexico. You just don't go to Mexico casually, wander across

the border; and how did he get there?

Mr. Sprague. In this area I only know what I was ad-

vised in the Warren Commission report. I do not feel I am

expert in it. They do say they went into his finances.

They

have stated the evidence indicates he took a bus to Mexico.

It may be of some interest

- again I am told i that when

we get to what was it that Oswald said when he was being

interrogated, one of the areas he made statements profably

untrue is his being in Mexico, raises some question as to his

feeling of a need to cover up having even been down there.

Another area that arises in these transcripts as a mat-

ter of fact is in one of the conversations by Oswald with the

Russian Embassy they asked Oswald, "Where can we get in touch

with you?"

And Oswald response is in effect, "I don't know; the

Cubans have my address, the Cuban Embassy has it." Which

raises some questions why they would have it and he just ain't

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401

remember or what.

We are really at the threshold. One of

our problems is we can only go in to pinpoint some areas and

even in doing this it really reemphasizes my point as to the

kind of staff to do an adequate job here.

Al ur. Mckinnex. As fax as you can tell from what phillips

said, the CIA made no effort to inform anyone, including the

Immigration Service or the guards at the Mexican border, that

Oswald had left?

Mr. Sprague. That is from what we have to this point

apparently clear. They made no attempt to notify anyone he

was out of Mexico and they made no attempt to notify that

this person was seeking to get out of the country and go to

Cuba and Russia.

Mr. McKinney. So they just sort of took down informa-

hurried

tion about aguy who would hu

y off to Russia, had a Rus-

sian wife and said he is going outrof Mexico so we won't worry

about it?

Mr. Sprague. If they sent a cablegram in some way at

least alerting Washington this person was trying to get out

of the country and changed it to omit that specific informa-

tion, whether that was done on anybody's orders or not.

Mr. McKinney. Is anyone still alive?

Mr. Sprague.

Scott is dead. I wouldn't say everybody.

I do not know.

Mr. McKinney. In the context.

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402

9) Mr.

Hane /

Sprague. I am advised that Marabe and his wife are

alive, the typist and translator of course are. There is a

whole raft of people. We have to find out the people in that

intercept unit and hear what it is they say occurred.

There is a question in my mind even on the destruction

of the tape. For example, if this situation was unusual

enough to warrant a cablegram being sent to CIA Headquarters

in Washington, would not there at least be a thought to main-

tain that tape until you get a response from Washington?

These are areas of inquiry.

Mr. McKinney. One last question. I wondered semewh

what your timetable was.

Mr. Sprague.. I do not mean to be facetious in response.

I think it would be wrong to have Ray feel as, feels this mo-

ment that he is in the driver's seat and everybody is going

to come scrounging and begging to him. You know in the

Yablonski case they were trying to get me to question Tony

Boyle right off the bat, if I came to him, "What makes you

think I am going to tell you everything?"

There is a psychological timing to get to someone. In

my view there are a couple of things that are important before

we get to Ray. I want to be in a much stronger position in

terms of knowledge of activities in terms of the whole ques-

tion of aliases, the phone calls.

Secondlay

I am interested in finding out just little tid-

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bits from anybody who may have been contacted, like this

person from the corrections department that we have referred

tO.

4 Finally, and in all good course, Ray has been in corres-

pondence with us. He has written and we have responded. Ray

is represented at the moment by a lawyer named James Lesar.

He was represented by an attorney named Fensterwald, who we

did find.. The appellate courts in Tennessee have ordered

Lesar to remain in the case, which he is doing. Ray also has

an investigator, one of the critics of the Warren Commission

named Weisberg, and there is some sort of problem existing

not only between them and us but between Ray and these people.

Frankly, one of the things from the psychological standpoint,

I am hoping that at some point Ray kind of does not continue

to have these people representing him and may want to be in-

itiating some contacts on his part.

It is a long way to answer, but I can not be prepared

at this point to answer except that a lot more groundwork

has to be laid before we get to that stage.

reguest

Mr - Mckinney:

There is no way at all we can ever as

obtain

Mr.

for of ever getmany information about what Ray told his

first attorney

fied because that is privileged.

Mr. Sprague. I am glad you asked that, because I apologize.

that is another area we should take up. One of the things we

are doing is attempting to get what it is that Ray has told

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4 04

each of his attorneys as well as what information was conveyed,

and

so forth. As a matter of fact, there are subagenas on

each of them at the moment. However, trying to hand out a

carrot at the same time, I have been talking with Mr. Ray's

present lawyer, Mr. Lesar, with regard to obtaining from Ray

a waiver of attorney-client relationship as to all of his

prior counsel, and if I can get that, I would rather proceed

in that vein.

I/ the probabilities are we can still get it because Ray

in his various legal proceedings has attacked his prior coun-

sel and that has probably achieved a waiver of attorney-

client privilege, but I would rather not get to that step if

I could proceed in the first way of getting this waiver of

attorney-client relationship.

McKinney: I apologize for taking so long.

Chairman Downing. Mr. Preyer.

Mr, Preyer. I just have two brief factual questions

and one general question. You mentioned the CIA transcripts,

documents which you have had a chance to see recently, and

you say they differ from those of the translator and from

Mr. Phillips' recollection.

Do those documents indicate that Oswald was seeking to

get out of the country?

Mr. Sprague. Those documents, even their own documents

that are there, indicate that Oswald was attempting to get, a

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405

visa to go to Cuba and Russia. The part of those documents

that I say has that in part is a Soviet call with Oswald

speaking to the Russian Embassy, and it could be a little

unclear from the transcript as to who is making the state-

ment but it is clear it is referring to Oswald being the one

to go out of the country.

Mr.

Preyer.

On the bullet, the two stretchers, was

the Warren Commission clear that of the two stretchers against

the wall in the basement, one was Kennedy's stretcher and one

was Governor Connally's? I had a recollection that the

President had remained on the stretcher during the entire time

and I didn't recall that was clear in the report. Is it clear

of the two stretchers one was Kennedy's and one was Connal-

ly's?

Mr. Sprague. I have been advised of that. I have been

told by a member of the staff who has read that but I will

check that.

Mr. Preyer. I was just wondering generally how much of

any of this you thought might go into the report which I

guess

we will have next week.

# 6 ½

The mention of six and a half million dollars has made me

feel we should try to put as much strong medicine in that re-

port as possible.

I wonder how much you think of what you have told us may

be addressed to the point where we wouldn't be compromising

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any future leads to put it in the report?

Mr -

Sprague. I recognize what you say. The trouble is

that each of these matters merits and calls for intensive in-

vestigation and I feel that disclosure would be premature at

this point.

It would be very difficult when we have yet to be compar-

ing typing with documents, when the questioner is speaking to

Mane/

Manate,

to have this kind of information out.

Mr. Preyer. So you probably wouldn't be able to complete

that in one line of this inquiry by January!e

Mr. Sprague. I will try to wrack my brain to see if there

can be some allusion without disclosure, but I am afraid

that the allusion that doesn't disclose, doesn't achieve what

you say.

Maniels

Mr. Preyer. I can see the witnesses like the Manates

and so forth might take some time to track down and you

wouldn't want to go into that until you have them.

Mr. Sprague. I also have the additional problem.

would like to show these transcripts to this typist and to

the translator as well. There are notations there and I

would like them to see those notations and see if they say

they are theirs.

Mr. Preyer. Thank you.

Chairman Downing.

Mr. Anderson.

Mr. Anderson. I couldn't be present at the hearing that

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was held I guess a week ago Friday or Saturday because I was

out of the country when Mr. Phillips came in, so I am not aware

of how his testimony developed. Did he come in voluntarily

before the committee?

Mr. Spraque. As a result of a story that appeared in

The Washington Post we immediately interviewed Phillips. I

thought this was merely involving what was reported in the

paper as to what someone was orally stating and I thought we

ought to get from him directly what it is he has to say.

What in fact he told us was not quite as it appeared in the

paper. Then we thought we ought to get what he said under

oath as promptly as possible.

Mr. Anderson. He seemed to be totally cooperative?

Mr. Sprague. He appeared to be, although I must say that

I found there was a selective ability to recall and not recall

during the questioning process....I had some questionsat some

points as to how forthright he was being with us.

Mr. Anderson. I am not familiar with what the statutes

Are there any prohibitionson former CIA people as to

what they can or can not disclose to someone like yourself

or a committee of Congress with respect to the activities of

the agency for which they once worked?

Mr. Sprague. I am not in a position to give you a

definitive answer. My belief at the moment is the only pro-

hibition is what they are obligated to pursuant to a contract

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they signed with the CIA. I am advised that the CIA advised

Mr. Phillips prior to his responding to our subpfena under

oath that he was technically bound by that contract. Mr.

Phillips chose to appear and testify anyway. Mr. Thone was

very concerned about the CIA telling him that he was technically

bound by contract.

Gonzalez. May I interrupt?

In the Marchetti case where you actually had a hearing:

the court upheld the CIA contract.

Mr. Sprague. That is my understanding.

Mr. Anderson. Just one final question. You have actually

seen or someone on the staff has actually seen the transcript

of what the station chiefs got and did send back to CIA Head-

quarters in Washington with reference to this wiretap on the

Oswald conversation between the Cuban and Soviet Embassy, the

transcript that differs from the recollection of the tran-

scriber and the interpreter? You have seen that physically?

Mr. Sprague.

The way you said it, Mr. Anderson is not

quite accurate. What Mr. Scott sent to Washington was a

cablegram

Mr. Anderson. It contained no reference?

Mr. Sprague.

Right. He did not at any time send a

transcript of the conversation. There are two areas: One is

the transcript and the other is the cablegram. I have seen a

copy of the cablegram that they say was sent by the Mexican

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station to CIA Headquarters in Washington and I have seen

what they say are the transcripts of the taped conversation

that was picked up.

Mr. Anderson. And they are as different as you have

described them?

Mr. Sprangue. Yes, they are.

Mr. Anderson. Both of those documents were turned over

to you by CIA?

Mr. Sprague. They were furnished to me to look at. I

frankly did not want to, at that time not having a

security

clearance, have them remain in my possession because I did

not want to take the chance of something happening and the

staff or me being accused of any leak or loss of the documents,

so I looked at them and had them taken back.

Mr. Anderson. Thank you.

Mr. Gonzalez. One further matter. In the Gonzalez case

the question was with respect to the publication of a book

and this is a congressional subppena, so we have an interest

ing situation there in case there were pressing points.

Mr. Sprague. I want to say to get to that point, sec-

that Marchetti case is a different context..

That had

to do with their enjoining him from the publication of a book.

The area that might apply here might have to do with executive

orders, but the President of the United States, it turns out

that the executive order in terms of classification and dis-

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closure that the CIA operates under was the executive order

issue, there is a question as to that limitation, and I

frankly would think that the power of subpoena and investi-

gation by this committee overrules that.

I Chairman Downing.

Mr. Stokes.

Mr. Stokes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This morning during the presentation, Mr. Sprague, You

which

mentioned to us a rather voluminous file that you have which

representing

sepresents

an inventory of the Memphis Police Department rec-

ords from which you will ascertain what records you ultimately

would like to have in your possession.

With reference to that Memphis police recora file, does

the

that relate to just

thes day of the assassination and subse-

quent investigation or does it cover a period of surveillance

of King prior to the assassination?

What period of time are

we talking about there in terms of that file in your posses-

sion?

Mr. Sprague. There are indications here in the indexing

of parts of the files that go into surveillance operations

and Dr. King prior to the assassination as well as

the inves-

tigation thereafter. There are indications of surveillance

action by the Memphis police as well as the Federal Bureau

of Investigation prior to the assassination.

There is an appearance here also of a representative of

the Department of Justice being at the Lorraine Motel at the

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very same time Dr. King was assassinated, and allegedly it

says they had a meeting with Dr. King, so there is some

appearance of information concerning that person being there

and the reasons therefor, which would have existed prior to

the assassination as well. How far back in time. I can not

say.

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Mr.

Stokes.

Have we had any further information or follow-

up with reference to the historic files that came up at our

last executive committee meeting?

Mr. Sprague. We have spoken to a police officer who has

advised us that some of the files that have been destroyed

by the Memphis police were surveillance materials on Dr.

King prior to the assassination. We have not yet gone further

on that particular area, although we are in operation to

defer that to the coming week.

Mr. Stokes. I think I have just one further question.

#

At our lastexecutive committee meeting, you provided

us with some information with reference to a former FBI

relative

agent who gave information to the type of heavy surveillance

on DI. King in the Atlanta area, and in the Memphis area,

and the fact that when he left one jurisdiction he was

picked up in the other jurisdiction, et cetera. Have you

been able to follow up on that line of surveillance activity

by the FBI?

Mr. Sprague. We are in the process, as I think I said

previously, of trying to obtain from the House its other

documents that they alread have on the COINTELPRO operation,

which was the FBI surveillance of Dr. King.

We have not

yet succeeded in getting those documents. We have learned

the names of two other former FBI agents who were part of

the surveillance of Dr. King, and we are advised they have

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information they are desirous of giving us. We have not yet

gotten to that.

McKinney. Can I interrupt for a moment?

Why are you having so much trouble getting things in

the same building we are sitting in right now?

Mr. Sprague. Well, the technical side of it is that

through the chairman we have contacted I guess it was the

Speaker's office. As to the other, we were referred to.

the Clerk. We were told we would have to contact someone

who is in a position of being a representative for the committee.

It has just been a long drawn-out process. And I may throw

in we have had the same thing with regard to the Senate

intelligence area, where we go from one to the next, and then

we go to getahold of the chief counsel, and we are told he is

not going to be back in town for a couple of weeks. It is

that kind of thing. I am not saying we are not going to

get them. But frankly, at this moment it has not been

breaking my heart that we have not gotten them, because I

do not know that we can do much about them.

We are now getting

in the process where I would like to get them. Rather than

any thought for the committee now, at our next meeting if we

do not have them and we are in the process to go ahead then,

I would get back to you on that.

Mr. Stokes. If I could have just one

further inquiry:

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In light of the lead that you now have that a member of the

Department of Justice was perhaps registered at the same hotel

as DI. King, have you proceeded to attempt to get ahold of the

record of all persons registered at or about that time?

Mr.

Sprague. Yes. And one of the other things we are

trying to do is find out, in the interviewing of witnesses,

what interviews existed even of this person, if he was

allegedly there, and if none, then why none?

Mr. Stokes. Thank you, Mr: Chairman.

Chairman Downing.

Mr. Fauntroy.

Mr. Fauntroy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am interested in the handwriting, or the notes on the

transcripts of the conversations in the Kennedy case.

Do I understand you to say that the records which appear

in Washington had notation in handwriting that the subject

spoke poor Russian?

Mr. Sprague. That part is typed in.

Mr. Fauntroy.

It was typed in.

Mr. Sprague. Typed in. On the side there is handwriting

that this is the translation from the Russian, and that:

is in handwriting.

Mr. Anderson. Could I interject at that point?

Does that raise the possibility that we are talking in

fact about a couple of conversations, one where he spoke

English and one where he did speak poor Russian?

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Spraque. It certainly raises that possibility. And

that is one of the things that we are examining i the totality,

and whether one is talking about one, and someone else is

talking about another.

The problem with that is, though, that in looking at

what are the total transcripts, at least the CIA advised me

what they showed, there is nothing there that conforms to

what the people, the typist down in Mexico is saying, from

that standpoint.

Mr. Fauntroy. The typist in Mexico indicates that she

had no trouble typing the transcript because what she heard

was in English.

Mr. Sprague. That is right. And I might also say,

in response to Mr. Anderson as well, these two people, this

translator and typist, state that on all calls to the Russian

Embassies, they would be the ones to type and translate i

there would not have been anyone else.

MI. Fauntroy. May I

M quickly go to the:

King matter?

Do I understand that the index of files available in

Memphis includes both local police records and FBI records

of all surveillance undertaken by the FBI in Memphis?

Mr. Sprague. I cannot say all surveillance. I can

only say that the index indicates that there are surveillance

records by FBI and local police here. But I would not say

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that is all that there is.

Mr.

Fauntroy. Is there any indication of informants

which either the

consising a *BI or the local polica had.

among the

Invaders

fa group of young people who had been active in

demonstrations and on whom they blamed the violence in the

first demonstration?

Mr. Sprague. I do not see anything in the index that

would indicate that. But we have not yet read and digested

this material in any detail. All we have done is just go through

and itemize what was there.

Mr. Fauntroy.: But there is no indication of the source

of what surveillance information they have on hand?

Mr. Sprague. I cannot even say that, Mr. Fauntroy,

because we have not read what is there. All we have done is

take what are the items that appear there. The analysis

and reading of it is yet to be done.

Mr. Fauntroy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Downing. Mr. Sprague, I would be interested

in knowing how you set priorities on your leads. Now, I think

we all understand the need for immediate investigation of

Mr. Phillips, as that broke suddenly. The bullet theory is

an important one. But you take the numerous irregularities

in each case i taking Kennedy for a moment now. There is

information that there were two rifles in the Texas Depository,

and that there is a deputy down there someplace in Dallas

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that saw the other rifle. Have you got a list of irregularities,

and then you have a list of priorities? Just how do you

work it?

Mr.

Sprague. well, the basic approach

and of course

again I have to repeat

i the basic investigation here cannot

get underway until we get the staff to do the job.

In the interim, it is finding out all of the material

that exists and where it exists. That seems to me to be one

of the first steps i

- what investigative reports there are,

where are they, what is there, so that something doesn't

then disappear. And that is one of the essentials that

I think have to be undertaken and is being undertaken.

To the extent that we get some matters of information i

Phillips, I think we would be derelict in waiting there. The

nurse and the Parkland bullet, she contacted us.

I do not

thinky as a matter of fact, I could not very well say to her,

"Thank you for the call, we will see you six months trom now."

So I think that calls for that kind of immediate response.

And I may say the person with the information on Dr. King

was someone who contacted us, willing to give this information.

Again, I think we have an obligation there to respond

immediately. I don't think I should say, "We will get to you

a month from now."

But aside from these areas that I call of immediacy, I do

not want to see us jumping off and just being like a little

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jack-in-the-box jumping to any stimuli that occurs, because

somebody in the Press wants to push a button here, someone wants

to push a button there. The real way to proceed is to get

everything that exists up to now, to know where it is, to get

it reviewed, analyzed, every bit of physical evidence, what

are the weaknesses there, where are the avenues that then have

to be explored, where are the witnesses, what witnesses apparently

were never followed through on. That seems to me the

approach.

And that is the best I can respond.

/ chairman gowning. I was thinking of this.

If you could prove or disprove an irregularity, and

then perhaps make that public, to not only show the American

people that you are making progress, but show the Congress

that you are making progress

M is that possible? For

instance, if you came up with startling news, "Yes, indeed, there

were two rifles in that Texas Depository"

- I don't think

you would have any problem with any of those people down

on the floor. On the other hand, if you came up with only

one rifle in the Depository, then we would go on to the next

one.

Mr. Sprague. The problem there, Mr. Chairman, if I

may say

M I am conscious of what you are saying.

I guess

in trying to keep this at a professional tone, and do a

thorough job, just like I have felt it is not up to me to

give any fictitious or padded figures

I really don't even

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want to be in a posture of pump priming with the Congress.

I want to do a thorough job.

I I think in the long run the evaluation and the

analysis of what this committee does i

because I think it is

going to be examined with a fine tooth comb, as it ought to

be:

i ought not even to be tarnished with the thought that

we just went out and shot in and tried to create something for

an immediate effect. I guess that is my best response..

Mr. Preyer. Would the gentleman yield?

I was

wondering on one point along that line, which would not be

sensationalizing it, but which you have given some substance

to here, that could be made in a report, is the incompleteness

of the other investigation. You have mentioned the two'

student nurses who had not been seen by any investigator.

And I understand these translators in Mexico, the ones who

translated the intercept, have never been talked to by

anyone.

Mr. Sprague. That is correct.

Mr. Preyer..

Which is a rather startling commentary on

the quality of the investigation.

Mr. Sprague. Mr. Preyer, isn't that amazing, that

even the CIA, with the questions that have been raised

about their own transcript, have never themselves gone back

to the primary source as to who did it. That I find

amazing.

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I Mr. Anderson. Mr. Chairman, following, I think, the trend

of your question, and also Mr. Preyer's thought, and in my

question I betray my ignorance of computer technology

is it possible, because you will have some computer capability,

as I understand it, tied into the House computer, to program

a computer in such a way that you can somehow highlight

and pinpoint the discrepancies that admittedly do exist in

the papers that are now extant on this whole investigation, both

investigations?

Mr. Sprague. Yes, Mr. Anderson.

Mr. Anderson.

Is that one way of proceeding, in which

you could rather quickly highlight a whole series of things that

are questionable, and that deserve the amount of time and money

and attention that will be given in this investigation?

Mr. Sprague.. It is a way of proceeding. As a matter

of fact, that is one of the reasons we are going to be using

the computer. It is broader based. In fact, it could be

doing exactly that in terms of discrepancies and corroboration.

It works both ways. The problem at the moment is it

would

be impossible in the time frame between now and frankly the

end of this year to be able to program and do that.

Mr. Gonzalez. Also financially, isn't that correct?

Mr. Sprague. Oh, yes.

We do not even have the

money •

Mr. Gonzalez. You don't have the $100,000 for that:

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Mr. Sprague.

We are down to just about $25,000 at.

this moment.

Mr. Gonzalez. We have a Catch-22 proposition here.

Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman, pursuant to the point which

you raised, and which Mr. Anderson mentions, I admired the

thoroughness and ground work, the approach you have been

taking, to the investigation. But I have been in a

sort of

a dilemma, personally, about how to proceed. In the first

instance, I recognize we do need a little something to

the

take to fat

Floor, and we need public interest stimulated

if we are in fact to be able to do the thorough job that you

outline here.

I have wondered whether or not it might be useful

to have someone on the staff, or a small group on the staff,

to go over thoroughly much of the research, many of the

books that have been written i some of them positing theories

about how the assassinations were carried out and by whom,

and that sort of thing, with a view to arriving at one, two

or three propositions that have been made

by some of those

some have seemed to be very thorough in their investigations

as a starting point, to see if there is in fact anything

there.

Mr. Sprague. Well, my problem is, Mr. Fauntroy,

that

Mr. Fauntroy. Let me first say I have read so much

now,

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and I am so confused by the many, many theories, that I welcome

what I call the grate-laying you are now doing in terms

of finding out the sequenceso

What in fact happened, when, and

where M

we are going to need that to straighten it out.

Mr. Spraque. That is the problem.

I am looking at it, maybe improbably in the long

road, because maybe we will never get to travel that long road.

But assuming we do, I do not think

it would do us well

if in that long travel, we put ourselves in the position at

the beginning of giving the indication, now that we are

on the road, started the investigation, of just shooting

off in terms of somebody's theory here and there. I really

think total impartiality is what is essential for our own

investigation.

Chairman Downing. Are you now or would you next week be

in a position Eo say that the warren investigation was not

a

complete investigation?

Mr. Gonzalez. Excuse me for interrupting before

you answer. Let me say this, Mr. Chairman. I don't think

that we should have to try to reach for the sensational, or

the tantalizing thing, to dangle before the Members of the

House, in order for us to get the approval for this. we have

to confront each and every Member of the House, as if it

were

that is assuming that they are men of good reason

and all.

Because just as many of the critiques and the theories

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and the hypotheses that you have in both homicides, you

have almost an equal number of apologias

in that is people

writing books sustaining those findings. So I think if

we get into that, we are going to be chasing rabbits right off

at the beginning and we will get lost.

"I think we have got to look at it this way. And the

reason I interrupted before I even gave him a chance to answer

his M

the Warren Commission -

i I have even seen members

of the Congress say, "We are reopening that." We are not reopen-

ing anything. This is the first time it has ever been done.

The Congress has never undertaken this.

I had a reporter argue, "Well, you had the Church

Committee, you had the Pike Committee." It is not the same thing

They never had a grant of authority to look into this.

They stumbled upon some peripheral matters in looking into

the intelligence agencies of the Federal Government that had

to do with Kennedy, that had to do with Martin Leuther King.

But they were peripheral.

They never had the authority,

they never had the resources to go into this.

Now, what we are saying is M

- /Look, "Mr

House', you

gave us $150,000 to start. We are doing the best thing

we know how, which is to get the best expertise available

on a professional basis, here is the consensus, it was being

given to us first, we have had a chance to shoot at it, and

we have got to take that risk.

I think if we try to say

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we know now, and we can tell even at this point the Warren

Commission was defective partially or in toto, I think, Mr.

Chairman, we might be really flirting with trouble, even if

we got the $6 million.

Mr.

Spraque. Mr. Chairman, I didn't get to answer, but

I really feel Mr. Gonzales answered for me.

Chairman Downing. I think that is a pretty good answer.

I think we all admire your thoroughness.

You just bring in a report next week.

Mr. Gonzalez. Let me say this: We cannot minimize.

This is sensational, just what has been done thus far.

well, what is this? Well, one, none of these witnesses, including

Marie Niles, has ever testified under oath. We cannot expect

of the Warren Commission a power that could rise and be inherent

in the pxecutive Branch of the Government. It was an ad

hoc situation, to try to address itself to the nation at a time

of trauma and high emotionalism, and where all kinds of

theories were batted around. We had a similar thing in the

case of the murder of Martin Iguther King, Jr. You had rioting,

you had emotions

it people said, "Aha, we know it.". But now

we have a brilliant opportunity to look at this in retrospecti

and not so far off where you don't have more living witnesses

than those dead, where we still have available somedocumentation

Our task is going to really be big, and that is to talk

to those who voted for it who are still with us, those who

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didn't, and somehow convince them. This is the reason I

asked the question earlier this morning. Maybe even on an initial

fragmentary basis

maybe they will say, "We can't give

you $6 million for the whole year, but we will give you one-

third of that for one-quarter of the year."

I. I don't know whether that is feasible or not. But at least

we have got the flow of resources on the level we feel are

required.

But I don't know " I have faith it is going to be.

sold.

We will have to call on you, Mr. Chairman, even though

you won't be here after January 3. But I think the influence

is still there.

Chairman Downing. I have faith in the manner in which

the staff is proceeding.

Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman, may I just ask in that

regard i could a part of this report be the listing of the

unanswered questions that we have with respect to the plea of

guilty by Ray?

Mr. Sprague. Yes. And in making the report, I will be

conscious of the thoughts that are suggested here.. But I would

also like to respond with one comment to Mr. Gonzalez.

You cannot have funding for a third of the year or

half of the year. There is no way that we can get the

competence and the kind of staff that we need, and say

to them, "We can only tell you you are going to be employed

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from now to March,' or now to June! It is problem enough.

The other would make it impossible. The other would makes

it impossibless

I Chairman Downing.

Okay. Any further questions of this

witness? If not, the committee is adjourned, and we will meet

again on Friday, December 17, at the call of the Chair.

whereupon, at 4:25 05

ock p.m. , the committee

adjourned to reconvene on Friday, December 17, at the call

of the Chair

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