TRANSCRIPT:REEL #1. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN, 26 JULY 1965.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/26/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

Date: 01/31/01

Page: 1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : CIA

RECORD NUMBER

: 104-10534-10033

RECORD SERIES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER

JFK

NOSENKO RECORDS

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

Released under the John

F. Kennedy

Assassination Records

Collection

Act of 1992

444 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NU 53216 Date:

D6-14-2017

ORIGINATOR:

FROM

TO

CIA

TITLE : TRANSCRIPT :REEL #1. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN,

26 JULY 1965.

DATE: 07/26/65

PAGES

: 95

SUBJECTS : NOSENKO

DERYABIN

NBR

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION : SECRET

RESTRICTIONS :

CURRENT STATUS

: POSTPONED IN FULL

DATE OF LAST REVIEW

: 01/31/01

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS : JFK-M-24: F34 2001.01.31.10:36:40:913084: NOSENKO NOT

BELIEVED RELEVANT

(NBR) . ATTACHED ARE 2-PAGE UNSIGNED

MEMORANDUM WITH A KEY TO THE TRANSCRIPTS AND HSCA STAFF

REVIEW FORM DATED 3 MAY 1978.

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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STORIT

1. Attached are 15 folders containing English-language

translations of the 15 transcripts of the interrogations

Of NOSENKO by DERYABIN during the period 26 July 1965

13 August 1965.

2. The following is a key to the transcripts:

a. A = DERYABIN.

b. B = NOSENKO.

c. ( ) = Single sets of parentheses enclose

transliterations.

d. (1G), (2G), (XG) , (XM) = Indicate a number

of missing or garbled or otherwise unreadable words.

e. (( )) = Double sets of parentheses enclose

transcriber/translator remarks, explanations, etc.,

and additional information supplied by interrogator,

but not included in the interrogation.

f. (? ?) = Queried transcriptions are thus

indicated.

g. .... = Ellipses indicated either a brief pause.

in speech or an unfinished sentence.

h .

= Underlining, except in cases of book

and periodical titles, indicate emphasis in speech.

WARNING NOTICE - SENSITIVE INTELLIGENCE SOURCES AND METHODS

INVOLVED

EZ IMPDET CL BY 011340

SECRET

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STICKST

C

C

2

3. We request return of these transcripts when

your review has been completed.

Attachments:

15 Folders

SECRET

53216

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MATERIAL REVIEWED AT CIA HFADQUARTERS BY

HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS STAFF MEMBERS

FILE TITLE/NUMBER/VOLUME: TRANSCRIPT

NOSENKO INTEDREGATION

REET

#/

INCLUSIVE DATES:

CUSTODIAL UNIT/LOCATION:

26 JULY 15

ROOM:

DELETIONS, IF ANY:

DATE

RECEIVED

4-20

4/25/78

3 Men 28

DATE

RETURNED

4-20

4/25/78

REVIEWED BY (PRINT NAME)

Ken Klen

SURELL BRAOY

Johanna Smith

SIGNATURE OF.

REVIEWING OFFICIA!

emil

Surer Brad

Ishanno

with

NO DOCUMENTS MAY BE COPIED OR REMOVED FROM THIS FILE

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Reel #

1

26 July 1965

Following is the complete translation of the verbatim transcript.

TRANSLATION

A. I think we will speak in Russian.

You do not object?

B. No.

On the contrary, better in Russian, because in English I ((am))

no so ((sure of)) myself....

A. Over

the last three years, together with my colleagues whom you

already know and who have worked with you here -- ((those who))

questioned (doprashivali) ((you)), ((and those with whom)) you met

and became friendly, I also have taken an active part in your case.

B.

Yes.

A.

From the very beginning, as soon as your case had begun.

B. Unhunh ((affirmation of understanding)).

A.. And,

as you already have been told during the discussions and

the

investigation,

large part of what you have said cannot be accepted

as true (za chistuyu monetu) .

And one cannot accept that which you said in your statements

(pokazaniya), etc, in just the way that (tak kak) you said or

testified (rasskazyvali ili pokazyvali).

I think, therefore, that you understand this perfectly.

But, as far as the people who worked with you, questioned you, and

met with you ((are concerned)), all of them to some degree speak

Russian - some well, some not so well - ((but)) some do not know

the Russian language at all; it is the same in your case (tozhe

samoye s Vashey storony): although your English language is good,

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still - quite understandably - there are some expressions and

words which are difficult to understand.

And, as for as all of the persons who worked with you before this

((are concerned)), perhaps they do not know or understand Soviet

reality very well....

B. That is correct.

A. ... And therefore, perhaps, for them

in some ((cases

it was))....

B. ((Interrupts)) Not understood what I am explaining.

A. Not wholly understood; perhaps it was understandable to them, but....

B. ((interrupts)) But not in detail.

A. Not in detail.

I am here only for that reason - in order to clear up all of

these misunderstandings which have arisen and existed.

I can tell you beforehand that at one time I worked in the KGB, in

Moscow, and lived there.

And I think that we, as former colleagues and former Soviets, will

try to find a common language in our discussion and to clear up

everything that was not understandable to us and everything that

was not understandable to you.

If you have sufficient courage and understanding of what I will say,

I think that we will find a common language and

finally we will

arrive at some common denominator; we will not leave a

single

puzzling question which would not have been answered or incorrectly

interpreted.

B. I agree with you absolutely.

I am wholly at your disposal.

A. Could you be precise?

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B. I am ready to answer all questions.

It is another affair that everything I say, everything, is understood

((is viewed or treated)) from the position that it

is incorrect and

that I... so to speak, ((am)) false (fal'shiv.) and came with

definite assignment (opredelennoye zadaniye).

A. But how do you think - since, so to speak, you yourself have

already raised this question:

"They think that ((I am)) false, that

((I was)) sent with a definite assignment", etc. - how can you

yourself

answer:

Why

are you in such a position?

HOW

can you explain this yourself?

B. Absolute distrust... absolute distrust, and then I already have

been thinking to myself very much; it already ((has been)) a long

time (bol'shoy srok): 479 days today.

179 days - this is neither ((479)) hours nor minutes....

Here ((there is)) quite simply the deliberate - so, perhaps, to

speak - desire... the deliberate desire of the people (u lyudey):

to make a case that...

"Well, here a double agent (dvoynik) sits'

before us".

As if this were ((their)) aim, ((their)) task.

((It is)) not ((their)) aim-task (tsel' -zadacha) actually to know

the truth; but ((instead, it is)) their aim-task to make such a case.

A. Well, speaking in a friendly way, how do you consider ((this)) as a

counterintelligence (kontrrazvedka) officer?

Do you think

that

all of the people who worked with you have mis-

understood

you, etc., so much that - without reason and without

any basis (osnovaniye) -- they have held (("are holding" - derzhat))

you for more than 400 days?

As a counterintelligence officer, tell ((me)).

B. I can say only one thing: that I have said, I say, and I will say

until the end that I have conferred with absolutely no one; I have

not heard a single word from anyone regarding ((my)) travel (poyezdka;

here, ((and)) I shared with no one ((the thought)) that I want to

SECHET

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stay abroad and not return to the Soviet Union.

No one knew about this.

A.

Well, anyway, I think you still have not completely understood what

I said....

B. ((Interrupts)) About what?

A.

... About what I asked you.

What ("how" - kak) do you think?

There was and is some basis - do you consider

- for ((the fact))

that you were in such a position as you are now?

B. ... As I understood - the confusion of my explanations and....

Here, these moments, perhaps....

Then...

I do not know, I do not know.

I have, strictly speaking - I cannot say why, why, what is the

reason (("main point"

- sut')) .

I only know one thing - that they do not believe me.

A. You yourself mentioned the word:

"confusion of explanations"

(zaputannost' ob"yasneniy).

How do you explain this "confusion of explanations",

if you see such

a "confusion of explanations"?

B. I do not see special....

((you)) see - when I... and your colleagues who preceded you (s

predydyshchimi Vashimi kollegami) were talking together,

even they

said to me:

"This here is a lie (vot zdes' nepravdu); this here is

a lie".

But the point is not in how I said ((it)) (A, ne v etom delo, kak ya

skazal).

I said that "I took part"... "I did not participate".

The point is in that this fact took place or did not take place.

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In this; I absolutely nowere, nowhere, made any mistake or lie.

A. As accounterintelligence officer, I think, you understand perfectly

that, having given (("said" - skazavshi)) one fact, a person must

say whence he knows this ((fact)), how this occurred....

B. Correct, correct.

Well, so you understand what (("thus, as" -- tak kak)) I say ((to you)

but how does it turn

out

(a chto poluchayetsya)?

For example, this Paris case; I tell them what (("as" - kak)) I know.

"From where do I know ((this", they ask me))?

"Nonsense, nonsense" ((they say)).

( (Laughs) )

How do I know?

"But these fellows... from IONOV's section (otdeleniye) told me

((I say)) .

"No. Not so" ((they reply)).

Well, I cannot say anything more.

I heard ((about this case)) only from them.

Or they supposed (predpolozhili) such a fact: From whom did I first

find out about DE JEAN?

So, believe me, believe me; I do not remember who ((was)) first,.

from where ((I)) first ((found out about this)).

First of all, working in the KGB - here, if you please, is the

problem: they do not believe me ((when I say)) that rumors, gossip,

etc., pass (khodyat) among the workers there.

You have worked ((there)); you know, if you worked ((there)), how

it is:

the First Department (otdel) has (('makes" - delayet)) a

case, but 10 departments (otdel) know that the First department is

doing something, something, ((although)) they do not know exactly

((what it is)).

But friends, those who have friends in the First Department, they

know a little more: that, ahah! ((there is)) a case against an

American, but they do not know the name ((of the American)).

A. I think that in this respect they understood you perfectly, and I do

not think....

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B. ((Interrupts)) "No," they tell me, "This cannot be.

What you are telling us is nonsense."

A. Not in all cases was ((this)) so stated - that....

B. ((Interrupts)) And... believe me . well, how?

What kind of trust or distrust can ((there)) be, if they say to my

face: "You did not work in the First Section (otdel) of the First

Otdel ((during)) these years"?

I cannot say anything.

True (pravil'no), in the ABIDIAN Case, I did not look very good,

but I said so ((myself)), that I did not work on

it, did not conduct

his development (razrabotka); the file was charged

to me (delo za

mnoy chislilos').s

But how

was

it run?

So they surveilled ((him)), waited for ABIDIAN to show his tail

(khvost) .

They

do not believe me.

A. Well, about this....

We still will return to the case of ABIDIAN.

I know everything that you have said about ABIDIAN and so forth;

and, of course, as a former employee of the KGB, I never

in any way

can believe that you were the case officer for ABIDIAN.

B. I was not the case officer, I was deputy chief of the section....

A. The more so....

B.

((Interrupts)) And they thrust the case upon me, but this was

terrible mistake (("gross error" -- grubaya oshibka)), a terrible

mistake of the department, because it ((is)) necessary to sit and

work on ((a)) case.

A .

Well, if.... Earlier you said that ((youfare)) prepared to discuss

SENNET

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(razgovarivat') and....

B. Yes.

A.

And possibly to clear up everything that...

B.

Everything which has not been understood there....

A :

Everything which has not been understood and so forth.

Let us suppose ((that there)) were very many questions ((about)) how

you began to work in the KGB, under what circumstances, etc.

I wish that we begin with (("from" --s etogo voprosa)) this question,

starting - for example - from the end of 1952 or the beginning

of

1953.

B. Good.

A. Thus we slowly will move further.

I have only one thing to discuss here; I hope that you will tell .

the truth: you will explain, corroborate everything that you say,

and so forth.

B. ((Interrupts)) I ask that you put the questions to me.

I will try to answer for you everything that you will ask.

A.

Also, ((be))

sufficiently accurate in your questions, etc., so that

there will be no misunderstandings of any kind....

B. ((Interrupts, repeating)) Misunderstandings.

A. To me, for example, ((this is)) not wholly understandable -- you

yourself know that in the course of

the long time you have been here

you

have said

several times that you went to work in the KGB - or,

as

it

was

called then, the MGB; one time you said ((this took place))

in 1952, sometime in the autumn or winter; then you said ((this took

place)) in the beginning of 1953; then you said ((it was)) after the

SEN

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death of STALIN; and so forth.

B. (1G)

A.

Let us begin, even from the end of 1952;

we will not go into details

((about)) what was before 1952.

Let us begin from 1952.

Whence

and how did you show up (poyavilis') in the city of Moscow?

B. At the end of 1952 I arrived in Moscow from the city of Sovetsk,

Primorskiy Kray; this ((city)) is 10-15 kilometers from the city of

Baltiysk, formerly ((known as)) Pillau, ((a)) German ((city)) -= the

base of the Fourth Naval Fleet on the Baltic.

10-15 kilometers from this Baltiysk ((is)) the city of Sovetsk, where

my MRP - the Navy Intelligence Point (Morskoy Razvedyvatel'nyy

Punkt), at which I worked for several months in 1952 -- was located.

A. Good.

You arrived in Moscow from there.

When was this, and under what circumstances?

For what was it necessary for you to go to Moscow at this time?

B.

I had a purpose (tsel').

A purpose stood before me: having come to Moscow, having come to

Moscow, to try - either through the Ministry of the Navy, because

there still were twoministries at that time, ((the Ministry)) of

the Navy and the Military ((Army - Voyennoye - Ministry)), separately,

not together.

A. So.

B. To try to get out of (uvil'nut') the work at this MRP and to think

of something new to transfer (pereyti) ((to)) from ((this)) work.

Because this work absolutely did not suit me; I did not like it, I

did not receive any moral or other kind of satisfaction from this

work.

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Here, at this point, I worked only several months in all.

A.

So.

B. I absolutely did not like this work.

And

I went to Moscow, went to Moscow;

I took leave (("got leave" --

dobilsya otpuska)) and went to Moscow.

I just took leave, so:

the MRP commander did not permit me ((leave)).

A. Well, in what, when was this, in what month did you arrive ((in

Moscow))?

B. In December, I arrived at the end of December 1952.

A. At the end of December?

B. Yes.

A. At the end of December 1952 you came to Moscow from

Sovetsk?

B. ((In a low voice, not confidently)) From Sovetsk, yes.

A. In plain language (prostym yazykov), explain to me what you did

(chem Vy zanimalis') ((during)) the first 3-4 days, when you had

arrived.

B. Well, I just cannot tell you this.

I have forgotten now.

I rested; I did not do anything.

A. I have in mind ((what you did)) as any officer ((does)); you were an

officer - I made ((this)) conclusion on the basis of your statements

(pokazaniya).

You came to Moscow, and so forth; well, alright (nu khorosho) -

you did not do anything, but the officer's duty demands ((that you))

come to someone and report that you have arrived in Moscow.

SNORET

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B. ((Interrupts)) Well, I did not come on ((an assigned)) business

trip (komandirovka) .

A. Upon instruction of some (V ch'ye-to rasporyazheniye)...?

B. ((Interrupts)) No.

A. ...On some kind of problems, etc.

You cannot just come, spit on everything and simply sit at home for

several months.

B. It is when you, ((when)) a person goes to Moscow on an ((assigned))

business trip (komandirovka), it is one case, but when a person goes

on leave (s otpusknym svidetel'stvom), on leave I can -- not having

reported to anyone - spend ((my)) leave, return on time and report

to the unit (chast') commander, to whom I reported ((when)) leaving,

report that I have arrived ((i.e., returned)).

A. Let us assume you went to Moscow; how much time was given ((for)).

your leave, a month or how much?

B. A month.

A. You went to Moscow; you do not report to anyone; you can live at

home, ((or)) wherever you wish, and so forth.

Good.

After three days, they announced a universal mobilization; what must

you do?

B. I must.

Here, in this case, I must quickly, quickly - well, here, taking

into account the work at the MRP, ((the fact)) that I am in Moscow

and ((that)) the Ministry of the Navy is located in Moscow -- I

quickly must telephone and say that

I am on leave: I am to go back

to the unit or there will be some kind of instructions from you.

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A .

But, upon arrival in Moscow,

do you not have to register someplace?

And, if you wished to be a deserter and did not want - there is a

war, and you do not want to go to war, then how must they find you?

Here is the most simple routine question.

B. Well, in these events, you see, all military units immediately, you

know very well, in the

presence (v nalichii) (1G).

Say (('Give" - Davay)), he says, who of us is present, who is not....

Such and such officers

are not present.

Where

are they?

(CB; i.e.,

Subject's family name)) is in Moscow.

A. Please, we will not go into such details.

B.

You ((yourself)) asked for such details (("so" - tak)).

A. I think the question was completely clear: you have come to Moscow

on a month's leave; what must you do, who must know that you are on

leave?

The affair is not set up so that you,you understand, have come, and

you hang around for a month, and if there had been war, ((you would

have said)) I will go to report.

If it were so, there would have been a million deserters.

Because people are on the register somewhere, and they know them

and that he is here on leave, ((that)) this officer is here, and

so forth, and if he is needed, one can call him.

B. So, according to the regulations (po ustavu), any officer - in the

event of a declaration of war, in the event

of some kind

of critical

situation - quickly interrupts his leave and returns to ((his)) unit.

A. According to the regulations, it is that which is said in the

regulations which also will be written up in the plan for mobilizatior

and so forth....

B. ((Interrupts)) (XG - ?

He quickly interrupts his leave ?)

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A.

...But apart from this, something else exists: some kind of rules,

which require that an officer do something upon arrival on leave in

any city of the Soviet Union, ((whether)) he goes home or he goes to

the Caucasus.

B. About this, where I will be on leave is known to the commander of

the unit, the military unit from which I departed,

and....

A. This is understood....

B.

Leave (otpusk), leave, and one goes

where?

Such

((and

such)) a city.

The Travel

documents (proyezdnyye dokumenty) are written out in

the railway ((travel)) order (trebovaniye na zheleznuyu dorogu),

again to that city where you are going.

A. Let us stop here on this, the most simple question.

Even here,

this little question: how did you go on leave (priyekhali

v otpusk)?

And what did you do ((during)) the first days?

With your documents, etc., where did you go, to whom did you report..?

B. ((Interrupts)) I did not report to anyone.

A. You have not explained articulately even to me.

B.

am explaining to you that I reported to no one.

A. The very same ((thing)) happened with all of the officers with whom

you have spoken previously (ran'she).

Sometimes

they

did not stop you, they gave you an opportunity, you

talked and

talked

and

talked.

But, believe

((me)), no one can buy ((it)) the way you say, that now

this

is how it

is.

Soviet reality does not work that way, and the registration (uchet)

is not carried

on (ne vedetsya) in this way, and people do

not travel

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this way.

It is for this reason (Vot poetomu) that I am here....

B. ((Interrupts)) But I am

from there.

And I went.

I was there, then I came, and I was located there.

You understand me; you say that it is

not this way (tak i ne byvayet),

but I went through (perezhil) this, had ((this experience)).

A. For me, what you are saying is only conversation.

You can say as much as you wish....

B. I understand you, I understand.

A. But for me it is important and wholly necessary that you tell me

how this was.

You went to Moscow, and you say that you lived at home a month and

did not report anywhere to anyone....

B. ((With sarcasm)) You asked me what I did ((during)) the first days,

the first days.

A. You do not remember?

B. I told you, well, where - at home; I spent ((the time)) at home.

A.

Well, to whom ((did)) you - as soon as you had arrived from Sovetsk,

where did you go, to whom did you report?

B. I absolutely did not report to anyone.

B. We will stop on this ((point))....

How much time did you spend on leave, if you arrived ((in Moscow))

at the end of December?

How much time were you on leave, approximately, until what time?

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B. I here... just.... it is hard to say.

Whether

my leave was finished, or maybe it was interrupted....

On leave in Moscow....

The business arose that I would be taken to work in the MGB.

Through KOBULOV, Bogdan... Zakharovich, and I in turn announced in

the Ministry of the Navy, in Personnel, to Colonel KALOSHIN, Chief

of Personnel of Navy

GRU, that I was processing (("am processing" -

oformlyayus')) and I would be (("will be" - budu)) processed (XG)

into the MGB:

"I am

announcing this to you."

A. Alright (khorosho).

Let us begin from here, since - I make my own conclusion - you were

not of a mind (ne v sostoyanii) or did not wish or do not wish to

explain

truly and correctly how you came to Moscow, to whom you

reported, etc.

Because there is no way to worm out of this (ni kak eto ni v kakiye

vorota), there is no way to get around it ((same expression)); do

not think, you, that you are the only person who has come here.

Many Soviet defectors come, many officers, and the rules which a .

person - a Soviet officer - must observe on leave are written in

his officer's identification (ofitserskaya knizhka).

Rule (("point" - punkt)) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

I even can imagine ((that it is)) not compulsory - and no one

insists - that one would come to Moscow and right away on the

second day must run ((to report)).

It happens (Byvayet) a person sits for three days, and....

B. Yes.

But (XG) ((A and B talk at the same time))

Or the military commissariat (voyenkomat), or the military commissaria

if this is a simple officer....

A. I do not want to put (postavit') "someone" ('kto-libo"), who did

you put when....

B. I did not put anyone.

STOREI

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When I had arrived, just after New Year's, after several days, I

went to (poyavilsya) the Ministry of the Navy.

Maybe after about ten days, seven, eight, and announced that I was

processing (("'am processing" - oformlyayus')); the problem of my

transfer from the system of the Navy to the system of the Ministry

for State Security was resolved (("'is resolved" - reshayetsya)).

A. Good.

Let us leave this question....

We still can return to this ((later)).

B. As you wish (pozhaluysta).

A. How, under what circumstances, and where did the conversation first

come up that you expressed the desire - or that someone proposed --

that you transfer to work in the organs....

B. Of the MGB.

A. Of the MGB.

B. It was at KOBULOV's dacha ((country house)) .

Prior to this, father knew - I had spoken with father previously

that I did not like this work.

More than that, when I left Baltiysk - I told you -- the unit

commander, the commander of our Navy Point, he of course did not

want to let me

go on leave, and I turned (obratilsya) - at a

reception to Commander of the Fleet Arseniy Grigor'yevich GOLOVKO,

father's pal (priyatel'), and said.....

A. We will return to this.

And we will come back to GOLOVKO and to the Chief of your Intelligence

Point, and

so forth...

B. No, as I....

A. We have begun now to talk ((of)) how and under what circumstances --

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so, not upset, calmly, simply - they found you, you found a person

with whom

to

talk of

going to work in the MGB.

B. While a guest, with my father and mother, at KOBULOV's - it was on

the first or second of January at his dacha.

The conversation was brought up: "And what are you doing?"

I said what I was doing (("am doing" - delayu)), where I was working

(("am working" - rabotayu)).

A. One minute.

"The conversation was brought up: 'What are you doing?!"

I have one question here.

Why did you and your family happen to be at KOBULOV's dacha?

B. ((Smiling)) There was a phone call.

At this time, KOBULOV was working in the GUSIMZ, GUSIMZ system.

But maybe it was as cover ((that)) he was registered with (chislilsya)

GUSIMZ, as Deputy Chairman.

GUSIMZ -- that is, the Chief Directorate of Soviet Property Abroad

(Glavnoye Upravleniye Sovetskim Imushchestvom Zagranitsey).

But he had been in Berlin, as chief of "BISMUTH" ((Soviet mining and

development concession, "Wismut"; in Russian, Sovetskoye aktsionernoye

obshchestvo 'Vismut')) -- all uranium extraction (("development" -

razrabotka; mining and

processing)).

And he was in Moscow.

He knew father.

Well, they, many knew.

He rang up father; for what, why, I do not know; in any event, he.

invited ((us)); or maybe father invited him to ((visit)) us at our

dacha, but he ((KOBULOV)) said: "I cannot; no, better, perhaps,

((if you come)) to me".

Well, all in all, we went as guests,

for a few hours (1G), to

KOBULOV's dacha.

A .

((In English)) Well.

I think you must say a little more:

SESHET

what - had ((your)) father

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and KOBULOV known each other long, or had you and KOBULOV known each

other long?

It does

not happen

so simply; if I, for example, do not know KOBULOv,

I cannot ring him up:

"Please come to ((visit)) me!"

B. (?One minute; I will explain to you now?)

Father had

worked, so to say, in such posts since 1938.

He knew the Minister or Deputy ((Minister)) from any Ministry.

KOBULOV also had worked for many years as a Deputy Minister and

also was among the "higher-ups" all the time.

But they know each other ((2G - A and B speak at the same time.))

A. You understand that it is not important that your father had worked

in the Ministry of Ship-building or some other Industry; specifically,

this - I would say - had no relation of any kind to the NKVD, where

KOBULOV at one time was Deputy Minister.

Here there must be something linking their friendship, something

further on which it was built, either a simple acquaintance or as...

B. ((Interrupts)) I understand.

A. It could not have heppened just so, that he phoned and (i vot)....

B. ((Interrupts)) They meet at receptions, they meet at conferences, thes

know each other, then perhaps they run into each other on problems;

so to say; there were some kinds of common problems.

Let us assume, for very many years the MVD carried on construction;

the most secretsand most complex ((construction work)) they carried

out with the MVD troops (silami voysk MVD›: SPETSSTROY .

Perhaps on this ground; I do not know on what ground they are

acquainted, but they are acquainted, and they have known each other

for a long time.

And not only ((that)); father knew many, many, just as

those who

were working "at the top (naverkhu)" knew him.

A. Let us begin from this.

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They knew many, etc. -- this is another question.

I wish to establish here only what mutual relations there were between

your family and the KOBULOVs and why it happened....

B. ((Interrupts)) Before this....

A.

...that you happened to be at KOBULOV's dacha, at a party and at

dinner or who-knows -what.

B.

Before this ((period)), I do not remember that our families were

associated,

so to say.

KOBULOV's family or our family - I do not remember

such a question.

They knew each other:

KOBULOV and father.

Well, they addressed each other by first name: ((father addressed

KOBULOV as)) Bogdan, ((and)) he addressed father -- Ivan.

Such ((was their form of)) address.

But by families I do not remember; there was no such event before

this.

Maybe, maybe, before New Year's they saw each other somewhere: in

the Kremlin, at a meeting, somewhere; and maybe therefore Bogdan

KOBULOV telephoned to congratulate ((father on New Year's)).

It is customary, you see: ((for)) New Year's, some congratulate on

the thirty-first, ((those who)) who are not visiting (kto ne v

gostyakh), who are at home; some send telegrams, but this is to

((those in)) other cities; but some call even on the first, phone

around to

their acquaintances.

Well (Vot), perhaps KOBULOV phoned, because I remember that there was

a call, namely, from KOBULOV.

KOBULOV himself phoned and congratulated father: "((I congratulate))

you on the New Year, Ivan; well, what are you doing?"

"Nothing much; the family is ((just)) sitting here; maybe we can get

together and have a drink."

A. But are you saying exactly how it was, or are you imagining and

presenting....

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B. No.

A.

... ((it)) as it must have been (('"must be" - dolzhno byt')).

... I was not a witness

((as to)) how father talked with him

the telephone; I am speaking ((of)) how it is

in life, how

it is and

how it

was, judging by

that meeting which took place (proshla).

A. In short, you were not present during this conversation....

B. ((Interrupts)) During father's telephone conversation, that (to chto).

A.

... ((That which)) you are telling me about phone calls, etc. - it.

is only, so to speak, ((that which)) you offer or imagine....

B. ((Interrupts)) That Bogdan phoned....

A. (IG)

B. That KOBULOV phoned - exactly ((as it happened)) .

He spoke with father - exactly.

But that he invited ((us)) - exactly, since we

went

A. How many times before this meeting, before this meeting, did your

family and KOBULOV's family meet as families.

B. I am telling you that I do not know of one instance (ni odnogo fakta)

((in

which)) they

met (vstrechat'sya) as families, visited

(naveshchat' sya) each

other at their apartments (po kvartire) or

dachas.

Despite the fact that mother also knew KOBULOV's wife, exchanged

greetings with her - "Good day (Zdravstvuyte)".

She saw ((her)) at a parade or reception or in a shop of the Council

of Ministers or another place.

A. But did you yourself see personally that they exchanged greetings,

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or are you again imagining and offering ((that which you have

imagined))?

I myself have exchanged greetings ((with her)), I know her -- KOBULOV'

wife

- by face.

Then, you see, the fact is that my acquaintance, VAKHRUSHEV, was

married to KOBULOV's daughter, and ((Pauses)) ....

A. We will return to VAKHRUSHEV, also.

Today, I want only one thing - ( (that it be made)) clear and

understood what kind of mutual relations there were at that time

((between)) KOBULOV's family and your family and ((between)) you

personally and Bogdan KOBULOV

B. At that time I personally had none ((no mutual relationship)) with

Bogdan.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A.

Personally met before this meeting?

B.

There was no one time, either at his apartment or at his dacha.

I could have seen (("could

see"

- mog viden')) him at a parade,

((or)) somewhere else (IG) .

A. But you never talked ((with him))?

B. No, no, по.

A. You did not talk ((with him))?

B. No.

A. Now let us go to the second stage of our talk.

How did the conversation come about that -- there was a conversation

about work in the MGB; ((was it)) at this party at Bogdan's?

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B. Well, there was a real dinner (deystvitel'nyy obed).

Who was

present: KOBULOV himself, his wife, daughter, and the

daughter's husbad, Vasiliy VAKHRUSHEV .

Also

there with

them - I have in mind Vasiliy and the daughter

((was)) a son, six or seven years old.

And there was also....

A. Which VAKHRUSHEV, the elder or the younger (("the father or the son" -

otets ili syn))?

B.

The younger (("the son" - syn)).

VAKHRUSHEV elder died long ago.

A. Unhunh ((affirmation of understanding)) .

B. And Bogdan KOBULOV's brother, Amayak KOBULOV, was there.

Lieutenant General Amayak Zakharovich KOBULOV .

There was no one else.

A. But, on your part?

On your family's side?

B. I, mother, father.

A. The three ((of you))?

B. Yes.

A. Please continue.

B. Well, how did the conversation come up?

Well, it was after dinner.

We were sitting, laughing, joking.

Well, let us suppose then that mother was talking (("is talking" -

razgovarivayet)) with the wife, I was talking with Vasiliy or with

them.

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Well, you do something.

I was - I do not remember - I had come in either civilian clothes

or

uniform; I do not even remember.

The conversation about

me simply arose (zashel):

What was 'I doing?

Where

was

I working?

Perhaps

Vasiliy raised the question, because Vasiliy had studied at

the same institute as I, only he - VAKHRUSHEV - had graduated two

years

earlier.

I said

that I was working in the GRU system of the Ministry of the

Navy.

In the beginning, my work (pervonachal'naya moya rabota) - work in

the Far East - satisfied me.

The work here - several months on the Baltic - absolutely did not

satisfy (("'does not satisfy")) me, and I have, I came here not so

much for the sake of leave, but took leave in order to think of

something, to find something, a place for work to which to go.

Well, Bogdan Zakharovich was interested.

There father and I were sitting (("sit")); there sat Vasiliy and

Amayak; I do not remember whether or not mother was listening.

I said this and that, this and that (to, to, to, to).

"But what are you doing?"

I told what kind of work, the preparation of so-called ANPS --

Agent-Surveillance Posts (Agenturno-Nablyudatel'nyye Posty) -

against the event

of war in the future.

"Well, that's

all.

"My role, speaking generally, comes down to nothing, because I have

absolutely no experience in this work, and, as a matter of fact, I

am - in crude language - a second tail sewed on a mare ((unnecessary

"This work absolutely does not satisfy, me, does not please me.

"To where?' ((Where to go?))

"I even do not know to where.

"To the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to ((the Ministry of)) Foreign

Trade, I absolutely do not know where ((to go)) .

"I absolutely do not know." ((Pauses))

A. Please (?continue?)

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B. Well, when Bogdan Zakharovich KOBULOV found out that I had had the

same

education (obrazovaniye) as Vasiliy VAKHRUSHEV, ((he said))

"Well, where do you wish? Do you wish?"

Well, I even do not know exactly how he said ((it)).

I cannot tell you word for word.

I cannot tell you word for word.

He suggested to me: "How do you view work in the organs ((with

uncertainty)) of Security?"

((I replied,)) "Excuse me, I do not know this work, and ((Pauses))

I have not worked ((there))."

A. Do you remember exactly how and what he said or not?

B. No, I do not remember word for word; no, no, no.

The conversation came up; he said to me: "How do you view work here?"

I said to him that "I do not know; if it is interesting work, then

((I will accept it)) with pleasure."

A. He said the word, "here", or....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, in the Ministry for State Security, in the

Ministry for State Security.

A. I do not wish to "hook" you (byt' zakoryuchkoy), but....

B. ((Interrupts)) The Ministry for State Security was what was meant

(imelos' vvidu) .

A. How did he say it: In the organs of State Security, or how?

B. This I, I absolutely do not ramember this.

Whether he said in the Ministry for State Security (Gosbezopasnosti)

or in the organs of State Security, or he simply said in State

Security - I do not remember this.

A. Perhaps he said in Counterintelligence (Kontrrazvedka)?

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B.

No.

There was no talk of intelligence or counterintelligence, absolutely

none (absolyutno ne bylo), and I -- until the beginning, until I

began work in March - I did not even know where I would (("will"

budu)) work.

I did not know.

A .

I, of course, would not have wanted to remind you that, for example,

earlier you said, for example, that when they questioned you in 1964

you

explained about KOBULOV a couple or three times before this, etc.;

at two points (("'in two places" -- v dvukh mestakh)) you emphasized

straight out that KOBULOV had said to you:

"And how about work in

counterintelligence,

in the organs of counterintelligence?"

B. I do not remember the word, "counterintelligence"; I do not remember

the word, "counterintelligence".

He could have said only one ((thing)):

work on foreigners,

Or

against foreigners, or on foreigners.

He could have said that.

But the word, "counterintelligence", I do not remember.

But, you understand, working in counterintelligence, I of course

could have said this.

A. You must understand that this is a very important moment.

B. I absolutely do not understand this.

It means I am so

stupid that I consider this absolutely not the

important moment you say it to be (kak bylo skazano) .

It is absolutely not important ((whether)) it was

said "in the

Ministry of State Security (V Ministerstve Gosbezopasnosti)",

because ((B's family name)) wished to work, or "you will work in

the organs

of State Security (v organakh gosbezopasnosti)," or "you

will work in State Security (v gosbezopasnosti)".

It is, you know, one ((and the same)) Ministry.

A. The point is not in how it was said ((to you)), but in how you have

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told (skazali) ((about it))....

B.

But I....

A.

... Until today....

B. I do not remember how it was.

It was

better for me, then, to say straight out:

simply was

working

in the organs, I was working in the organs, I was working

in the organs (rabotal v

organakh).

A. As far as I know, you at one time emphasized that ((it was)) "How

about work in counterintelligence?"

B. Understand me - I did not know where I would (("will" - budu)

work, in intelligence or in counterintelligence.

I did not know

— this I remember exactly.

I did not know.

A. Now you say that Bogdan said to you or asked you,

"How about work...."

B. ((Interrupts)) What do I think (Chto ya dumayu) ....

A. "... In State Security, or what do you think...!"

B. Well, "in the organs of State Security", "in the Ministry for State

Security", "in the MGB" or how((ever)) it was said.

A. Alright (khorosho).

Continue.

What else (("'further" - dal'she))?

B. Well, I understood him, that he has broad connections at his disposal

and that he will help me in this problem.

I told him that I was on (("am on" - nakhozhus')) leave.

When ((it would be)) necessary for him either to somehow ((one word

SECHEL

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omitted in conversation; probably meant "contact")) me, in order to --

I, well, I do not know -- in order to put me in some kind of official

position.

He said:

"Do not worry about this.

They will do it; this will be the work of Personnel ((Department)),

and they will put your Ministry in the know."

I asked: "But will you set it for me

or

not?"

I do not

remember what he answered, but

to my mind he said,

"It is not your affair; they will handle this without you."

For all that, I soon, soon - well, maybe after several days

-- in

the Ministry of the Navy, I told about this (ob etom fakte).

A. This conversation, then, took place on the first or second of

January 1953, with KOBULOV at his dacha?

B. ((Without certainty)) Yes.

A. What more (Chto dal'she bylo)?

The party ended, KOBULOV left or you left them.

What more did you do during the month of January?

B.

I do not remember when it was, but there was a phone call, at the

apartment on Gor'kiy Street, (ulitsa Gor'kogo); there was a phone

call, ((and)) they asked me ((to come)) to the telephone; they said

that they were talking (("are talking" - govoryat)) with me from the

Ministry for State Security.

A. Approximately when was this?

B. In January.

A. In January.

B. In January.

A. How, approximately, was ((this)) said to you?

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B. I was told that they were talking with me from the Ministry

for

State Security, that I should come to the Pass Bureau (Byuro

Propuskov)

on Kuznetskiy

Most.

There I would receive a pass

and go to the building where - the

room ((number)) was

indicated on the pass where they would

(("'wil]" - budut)) talk with me.

A .

When was this?

B. In January.

A. In January?

B. In January.

A. When did you go there?

B.

They told me the date, and.

Let us suppose that the phone call was today - I do not remember --

today I went, or on

the following ((day)) - when ((ever)) they told

me -- I went to Kuznetskiy Most.

I received a pass, appeared at Building (Dom) 12, Building 12,

((there is)) an entrance (pod"yezd) there; now, ((wait)) one minute,

Building 12.

This is

an entrance (vkhod) not across from Building 2, but from

Malaya Lubyanka... an entrance (vkhod)... around the corner.

On Malaya Lubyanka, there is a courtyard (dvorik) and here is the

entrance (pod"yezd), then, to FINO ((Finance Department)) ... ((Counts

on his fingers:)) one, two, three... the eighth or ninth entrance

(pod"yezd) .

The Party Committee (('Partkon")) is located at this entrance

(pod"yezd), and at this same entrance the Komsomol organization of

the Committee ((for State Security)) is located.

At this same entrance is a dietetic restaurant.

At the same entrance

is (("site" - sidyat)) Personnel (Kadry).

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A.

Well, let us stop on this ((point)).

Let us speak frankly (pryamo): if you know to what entrance (pod"yeze

you came, then please say ((so)); if you do not know exactly,

please

say ((so))....

B. I said the eighth or ninth entrance (pod"yezd) of Building (Dom) 12.

A. You have explained to me almost exactly what is located at the

eighth entrance.

Let us stop for a minute on the ninth, the ninth entrance.

Where is this entrance, and what was located there?

B. I told (skazal) what was located there.

A. What was located ((there))?

'At the ninth entrance?

B. At this entrance, on the second floor (na vtorom etazhe) -- a

restaurant, a dietetic restaurant.

A. This is at what entrance?

B. This is the eighth or ninth entrance.

A.

But more exactly?

B. I can draw for you ((a picture of)) what entrance I have in mind,

but I do not remember the numbering (numeratsiya).

A. Let us stop.

It is not necessary to draw ((a picture)) for me, because I see

all entrances (pod"yezdy) so very well.

B. Well, alright (khorosho).

The fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth.

No, there is no ninth, then, ((but an)) eighth.

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The eighth entrance.

A.

What is located at the eighth entrance.

B.

At the eighth entrance,

the dietetic restaurant on the second floor;

at the

eighth entrance - ((there is)) the library.

A..So.

B. At the eighth entrance on the seventh floor;

the seventh, it seems,

either the seventh or the eighth there - the Party Committee

(Partkom) of the Committee ((for State Security)); one floor up

(etazhom vyshe) - the Komsomol organization of the Committee ((for

State Security)), and here, at this same entrance, Personnel (Kadry):

the sixth or eighth or ninth - these floors; I do not remember.

A. Again.

As a former KGB employee to a former KGB employee, I wish simply

to remind ((you)) that if you know exactly what was located at the

eighth entrance and you went to the eighth entrance, then please say s

B. But I have told you what was located ((there)) and where I went.

A. For your information, no one from the Personnel Department ever

was located at the eighth entrance.

B. I was

a ROZHENKO's ((office)), chief of the Personnel Section

(otdeleniye Kadrov), if you want to know.

At ROZHENKO's (IG), surname (familiya) I know.

A. I do not want now to pose the question that you never saw ROZHENKO.

Probably you even saw him and talked ((with him)), but ((the question

concerns the fact)) that at that time ROZHENKO never sat at the

eighth entrance.

B. It was precisely he who was sitting (Imenno on sidel) ((there)) as

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as chief, being chief of the section (otdelentye), in 1953.

He was chief of the section, and he was sitting ((there)), and I

talked with him in 1953, before the beginning of ((my)) work there.

Or, one time he saw me, ((and)) I talked with him.

((XG --

A and B talk at the same time))

A.

Here ((is)) Building 12.

You worked there - if

one is to believe what you have told us

before this — quite a long time (dovol'no prodolzhitel'noye vremya) .

B. In Building 2.

A. In Building 2.

It is nearby (Eto ryadom), you yourself know.

Well, let us begin in order - what, after 10 years ((there)),

must you most likely know approximately, what entrances there are

in Building 12 and even what directorates (upravleniye) or departments

(otdel):

were there?

Imagine that you still - until the present time - are in the MGB

or KGB, and you simply and in a friendly way are telling and

explaining what you know.

I not at all pose the question that you never talked with ROZHENKO,

that you never saw ((him)), etc., but that

you said that

a restaurant

is there and library is there....

B. ((Interrupts)) All on the eighth (Vse na 8-om) .

A. ...And the Party Committee (Partkom) is there -- all of this is

correct, but one ((thing)) that I want to say....

B. ((Interrupts)) The Personnel Department.

... The Personnel Department was not situated on this eighth floor

(etash) at that time when you went to work in the organs of the MGB,

and it never was (i ne byl).

SECRET

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B. I cannot tell you that the whole Personnel in its entirety was

((" sat"

- sidel)) at this entrance (pod"yezd) -- no, not in any

case - because Personnel was scattered (Kadry byli razbrosani), but

those, those with whom I talked, the people -- to my thinking, I

was on the sixth floor (etazh).

?To my thinking?), they talked with me on the sixth floor.

On the sixth

floor.

ROZHENKO's employee, from ROZHENKO's section (otdeleniye), talked

with me.

I do not even remember his name.

So both (?ROZHENKO?) and everything, everything ((is)) at this same

entrance (pod"yezd) .

A. Yoursee, the question stands before us - either we will continue

the conversation and - as they say -- put your case in order, as

you promised from the very beginning, or we will move on to a

completely different subject.

B. Please.

A.

I am here only in order to help you and to have a correct presenta-

tion and to give my friends who have worked with you here some

information.

Because they cannot believe what you say.

I even more cannot; even more, I cannot.

B. Unfortunately.

A. Well, alright, if you were there for 10 years, let us stop here:

what was at the ninth entrance (pod"yezd)?

B. I have told you what was at the ninth entrance.

I do not know more ((of)) what was there.

A. You explained the eighth to me.

ACCRET

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B. Well, the eighth entrance, well, I have in mind this last entrance

(konechnyy pod"yezd); generally speaking, there was no ninth in .

Building 12.

Because, you see, from this, the front, side of Building 2, Building

2, so, Building 2, opposite Building 12, from this side, then, the

last

entrance (pod"yezd) ((is)) the fourth, the fourth, where the

Second Department (otdel) of the OTU was located (("sat" - sidel));

the Sixth Special Department (Spetsotdel); the Sixth, well, now this

is the OTU, the Sixth, the Sixth Special Department, part (chast')

of the Second Special Department, not all.

Now, you go around the corner, around the corner, no, Malaya

Lubyanka Street (ulitsa), here

it is -- Malaya Lubyanka, around

the corner there is not one entrance (pod"yezd), but a small doorway

to the courtyard (a vkhodik vo-dvor), a grille (reshetka), an iron

grille; you enter the courtyard, here ((is)) the fifth ((entrance)) --

I never (("not once" - ni razu)) entered the fifth; the sixth

entrance - I went in the sixth, it ((is)) FINO, there, concerning

money and travel documents; the seventh entrance - whether I was

there or not I do not even remember; the eighth entrance - this

here is the last.

Well, then, here ((are)) the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth - the

last - ((that is)) all.

There are no more.

This is in one small courtyard (dvorik).

That ((is)) all of the entrances of Builging 12.

A. Well, where is the ninth?

B. There is no ninth.

I simply said (("say" - govoryu)) the eighth or the ninth.

This entrance is the eighth.

Because here from this

side the fourth ((is the)) last, opposite

Building 2, but here i around the corner -- there is the entrance

to the courtyard and these entrances: fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth.

( (That is)) all.

SEGRET

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A.

We will return....

B. ((Interrupts)) We will return....

((XG = A and B speak at the same time.))

A.

... ((Wait)) One minute; we will return to these

entrances.

I cannot in any way imagine that a person who has worked for 10 years

in counterintelligence can say, could try to state to a person who

worked at the ninth entrance that there is no ninth entrance.

I cannot in any way understand this.

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

I am telling (Ya govoryu) ((you)) what I know....

A. Listen, a person who has worked so many years probably knows how

many entrances ((there are)) in Building 2 and in Building 12.

B. I say that ((there)) is not.

There cannot be a ninth entrance there, because further on behind

this building is (('goes" - idet}) the Moscow Oblast and Moscow City

Directorate (Upravleniye Moskovskoy Oblasti i Goroda Moskvy) ((of

State Security)).

((That is)) all, and there is nothing more.

A. Correct, but where is the ninth entrance.

B. I do not know where the ninth ((is)).

There is no ninth.

I do not know the ninth entrance, because, right away, you see,

this small courtyard, so, the iron grille, the end, this little

courtyard ends here, here a part - the restaurant comes out here

onto Lubyanka

and just (srazu zhe) after the restaurant, it comes

up nearby, here it is as Building 12, a continuation of Building 12,

the Directorate of the City of Moscow and of Moscow Oblast.

((That is)) all, ((that is)) all.

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A. I agree, I agree.

B. ((That is)) all.

But ((there is)) the entrance from Lubyanka, of course.

A. Alright (khorosho).

Let us suppose for a minute that you have arrived in the Personnel

Department (Otdel Kadrov); whom did you first meet there?

Let us begin a little further back (nemnozhko nazad), with the

Pass Bureau (Byuro Propuskov): you have arrived in the Pass Bureau;

((In English)) what next?

B. There is (Vot) a little window (okoshechko).

I gave ((them my)) officer's identification (("officer's booklet" -

ofitserskaya knizhka)).

I said that there is a pass (propusk) for me.

They

said, "Wait."

But, as usual, they take your document, close the little window, and

you wait.

The little window opens, the officer's identification is returned

with the pass, the pass.

In the pass it is indicated, then, Building 12, the entrance, such-

and-such a room.

A. But do you now remember which entrance and which room this ((was))?

B. No, no, no.

A.

Do you still insist (Vy vse nastaivayete) that this place was at the

eighth entrance (pod"yezd)?

B. At the eighth; yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

I went (khodil) to this entrance, only to this entrance.

And when I talked with ROZHENKO and with this person

—- to my

thinking, I talked with him two times.

SEGRET

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A. Who ((was)) this person?

B. I do not know ((his)) surname.

In my opinion, ((he was)) a case officer or senior case officer.

A. You went there.

To whom was ((your)) pass made out (byl vypisan)?

TO ROZHENKO:

B. No, no.

The pass was made out, room such-and-such six hundred... there, to

my thinking, six hundred... to my thinking, the sixth floor, but I

do not remember exactly.

Whether there was shown (ukazano) a name (familiya) - ((it)) must

be shown, but I do not remember - I do not remember, I do not

remember, I do not remember.

I came to this - I remember, then, that when I came to this room,

I went up; I went in the eighth entrance, went up... wait, where did

I remove ((my coat))?

I took off ((my coat)) here, downstairs (vnizu); correct.

Below (Vnizu), at the eighth ((entrance)), I removed ((my coat)),

went up, knocked at ((the door to)) this room, and there sat several

people: three or four, all in civilian clothes.

They said, "Wait."

Alright (khorosho), I wait.

A. Let us begin from when

you came in the entrance.

You said that

you removed ((your coat)).

Where did you remove ((your coat))?

B. Here,

downstairs (Zdes' zhe vnizu),

at the eighth ((entrance)).

A. What - ((is)) there enough space (("place" - mesta)) for the

removal

of outerwear (("undressing" - razdevaniye))?

B. You see, it is this way (Videte-li v chem delo): there they remove

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((their coats)) downstairs - on the first and second floors.

((There are)) two places . two cloak-rooms.

And when you go to eat at the dietetic restaurant (dietstolovaya),

you wear your coat to the second floor, where you remove ((it)).

If you go up

"(above the

second floor)) - well, on business

then

you remove ((your coat)) here, below.

I removed ((my coat)) below, on the first floor, as I entered.

A. What ((was)) there, cloak-room attendants, man and woman (garderob-

shchik byl i garderobshchitsa)?

B. Yes, there was

a woman, a cloak-room attendant.

A. You went up.

Then (Dal' she)?

B. I went up to the floor indicated in the pass,

found this room,

knocked, opened ((the door to)) the room; there, I, well -- as far

as I remember, three or four officers were sitting there.

A .

To whom did you speak (obratilis')?

B. I don't remember.

I said:

to come here."

But one of them said:

"Here is the pass; my name is ((B's surname)); I was told

"Wait; I will call you."

A. How do you think - I would not have wanted to remind ((you)) again

that a person who has worked so many years must know exactly - is

the name of the person who is visiting (("going" - idet)) and whom

shown on the pass or not?

B. But I am explaining to you.

A. You could not....

SECRET

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B. ((Interrupts)) But I will explain to you.

I will tell you - why?

Because I do not remember, I do not remember.

But usually it is shown

who orders the pass.

An ordinary case officer or a senior case officer cannot order a

pass; that is, he can write out the pass, but someone among

his

superiors (iz rukovodstva) signs ((it)).

Now, you have issued it, but still you must confirm if the deputy

chief

of Department (otdel), the chief of Department, signs it by

hand (v pis mennon vide) - that is how it is (vot tak).

Now, orally (v ustnom vide), the officer, now, here now....

A. We will come back to this: the pass procedure (Is poryakok propuskov),

etc.; we will talk more of this.

B. That is why I am here (Dak i ya).

You ask me; I explain to you.

A.

I am talking to you about this case.

I cannot believe that a person has worked for so many years and

does not know exactly whether the name of

the employee whom

he was

visiting

(k kotoromi on idet) was shown on the pass

He goes up to the sixth

floor and says:

Or

not.

"Who needs ((B's surname? ))'

B. No, not to the sixth floor, but to room six hundred... such-and-such

and there

some room six hundred (XG) ... I ((am)) ((B's surname)) and..

I have appeared (yavilsya), I do not know to whom to speak (obratit'sy

who was sitting there, I do not know who, to whom must I turn

(obratit' sya) .

To my thinking, tomy thinking, to my thinking, a name was shown

there in the pass... I do not remember; let us suppose ((that the

name)) there ( (was)) PUSTYSHKIN, PODUSHKIN.

I could have opened ((the door to)) the room and said: "My name is

((B's surname)); who here is Comrade PODUSHKIN or PUSTYSHKIN?"

He ((would have)) said: "I ((am he)); you wait for me; I will call

you."

SECrET

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((And that would have been)) all.

A. An employee who had worked 10 years in the organs of the KGB - he

immediately can say that a name is shown there or is not shown.

He will not hesitate, think up ((something)), and say: to my thinking,

it was, or it was not; because the regulations (pravila)....

B. ((Interrupts; XG - A and B speak at the same time)) ... I know what

is shown and not

shown

and I myself

made out passes and I myself

signed ((them)), as...

deputy chief

of department, and now one can

simply order ((passes)) by telephone, well, from the chief of a

section (otdeleniye).

An ordinary employee orders ((the pass)), but a

chief of section

and higher confirms ((the order)), and it is both with a name and

without a name.

A. You have arrived at the Pass Bureau (Byuro propuskov); you will

submit (otdayete) your document.

What did you say to them?

B. I said that there is a pass here for me; it must be a pass to

Building 12.

((That is)) all.

I gave my officer's identification (("officer's booklet" - ofitser-

skaya knizhka)).

A. What else did he ask you in the Pass Office?

в.

I don't remember.

I do not remember what he asked.

I do not remember what (kak) I said, ((or)) what he asked.

A. You see, as they say, these are such small things on the face of

it;

when a person has worked so many years and can not say exactly, but

how it is in fact (kak na samom dele byvayet), of course, comes

under question (stavit pod vopros) .

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B. I am telling exactly how it is.

But how, what I said, what was said, this, of course - if this is

the basis for the decision of the question about me, then excuse it...

A.

This is not the basis for a decision, but...

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, so you base ((a decision)) on such things as

this, you understand me....

A. ... But one of the hooks (zatsepka) which....

B. Precisely so, a hook....

A. ... Brings us to a stop and again forces us to speak....

B. ... You yourself can wholly ((understand)) that a person cannot

remember what (kak) he said while talking at the little window

(obrashchayas' v okoshko) of the Pass Bureau ((and)) what he was

asked.

((XG -- A and B speak at the same time))

A .

... Anything, however small, is essential (sushchestvennaya) .

B. We, intelligence officers and counterintelligence officers, we daily

pass

by thousands of small points (melochi) which we do not notice.

I, or I notice, on which our memory fixes, it leaves no traces (ne

ostavlyayet sled).

We remember what

it was.

If we will see ((it again)) -- ((we say)) "yes, I saw this", if I

had noticed this, but it does not leave a deep impression (("trace" -

sled)).

A. We will come back ((to this)).

You are in six hundred... the room, whatever ((number)).

What more (dal'she) took place?

SECRET

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B. Only that which I remember; only that which I remember, and then

you judge, please, as you wish.

A .

Please.

B. I remember, then, he talked with me - this, this Personnel man

(kadrovik), whether

a case officer

or a senior case officer; what

kind of questions he posed, I absolutely do not remember, and even...

There was

a talk, doubtless

about where I had served, well... about

myself, who are you, what, where did you graduate, what institute,

what kind of education, language, where have you worked since

graduation from the institute, there and there, ((your)) last place,

there and there - I told everything.

Questions concerning the biography.

A. So.

You had a conversation, etc.; what then?

B.

And he gave me, then, he said to me, yes, he gave me several pages

((Not with certainty)), then there is one, such a sheet ((page)),

one word on it: autobiography; it says, for the autobiography, in

two copies, and he gave me a questionnaire (anketa), also two

copies, there were some four or six pages, the deuce knows how

many .

It ((was)) necessary to fill out the questionnaires, all of this,

and submit ((it)) to them.

To my thinking, yes, I filled ((them)) out at home, yes, at home I

filled ((them)) out.

The questionnaire, the autobiography, and I

attached small photos of

myself.

A. They gave you two copies of the questionnaire....

B. Of the questionnaire and two of the autobiography.

One and the other in two copies.

SESHET

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A. What was on this page which was intended for the autobiography?

B. Only one word:

"Autobiography".

A .

What is outstanding about the questionnaire?

B. The questionnaire (anketa) ((is)) a routine questionnaire (voprosnik).

Well, the first question, well, surname, given name, patronymic,

place of birth, where born, well... routine... but... the expanded

questionnaire (rasshirennaya anketa), that is, I have in mind...

you understand, I filled out the questionnaires, and later, when

working I filled out a questionnaire again; it was an abbreviated

(sokrashchennaya) questionnaire, not so large -- (?six?) pages, less.

A questionnaire.

A. What size was this?

How many pages were there?

B. Four or six pages.

A. Four or six pages.

What was this questionnaire called?

B. Questionnaire (anketa).

((That is)) all, nothing more.

A. After the talk, after the conversation in the Personnel Depar tment,

except for the autobiography and questionnaire, what else did they

ask you to do or to submit (predstavit'), or what further step had

to be taken?

B. I, then... when I had filled out the questionnaire and the autobio-

graphy....

A. Where did you fill out the questionnaire and the biography?

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B. At home, it seems, at home.

At home.

A.

Can you say more exactly?

B. No, I cannot say more exactly.

A. You cannot say more exactly where you filled out the questionnaire?

B. I received the questionnaire there, to my thinking, I filled it out

at home; yes, at home.

And they gave me on the following day, they gave me a pass, I went

up and turned ((the questionnaire, etc.)) in (otdel).

Ox, no, I did not drop in ((at the room itself)), but this ((person))

gave me a telephone ((number)), I phoned, he came down and took my

autobiography and questionnaire... it means, I called on the telephone

this employee came down and took ((the questionnaire, etc.)). ((Pauses

Yes, I filled out the autobiography and questionnaire at home, I

filled ((them)) out at home, because I did not have photos with me

and I submitted the photo at the same time on the following, on

the following, approximately, day, I phoned... went to, went to

the eighth entrance, waited, this employee came down, I gave him

((the questionnaire, etc.)).

He said: "Well, alright, we will phone you."

A. Then, you submitted (predstavili) an

autobiography....

B. Two copies....

A. Two copies....

B. Two copies

of the questionnaire....

A. Two copies of the questionnaire....

B. Photos.

SECRET

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A .

What kind of photos?

B. Small photos, I did not have any others.

They wanted to receive 9 x 12, a large and small ((ones)), as usual,

you know, it ((was)) 4 x 9 or 4 x 6 or 3 x 4; to my thinking, (Cit

was)) 3 cm. by 4.

And they asked me for one 9 x 12; I said that I have none, this is

large.

A. But then later you submitted a 9 x 12 to them.

B.

No, no, no.

Later I submitted ((one)), when I already was working,

it was in

approximately 1955, 1956, that they asked me.

I submitted a 9 x 12 about two times.

A. Then (Dal'she)?

You filled out the questionnaire, submitted ((it)), a person came

down, took these questionnaires, what then?

, B. There was nothing more.

Further I was told that there will be a phone call for me, they will

phone me again, I will go.

A. When was this phone call?

This all was sometime in January?

B. It was in January, yes.

A. In January?

B. In January, yes.

A. When did the phone call come (("follow" - posledoval))?

B. I do not remember.

I do not remember.

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Again I talked with this ((person)) briefly; I was with this

employee about 30 minutes, then I was with ROZHENKO for the third

time.

The third time with ROZHENKO.

With this, everything

was completed, and I received a phone call,

the last phone call I received from

them... in March, after STALIN

was buried.

After STALIN's burial they asked me to come, not to Building 12,

but to Building 2.

The pass

was ordered for the fourth entrance straight out, for the

principle, central entrance.

A. But when, then, from January to March, what were you doing in Moscow?

B. Nothing.

I was, I was, this period of time, you understand, all January -- I

still ((had)) leave, February and this part of March before working,

this ((was)), so, at the disposal of Personnel; that is, until the

moment, until the appearance of the order that I was enrolled to

work in the MGB, I was, this period of time, period of time, but I

do not know, from the middle of January, from what

time, I was

at

the disposal of Navy (VMF) Personnel, of the Ministry of the Navy,

but how it was here, no one explained to me.

I know only one ((thing)) - that Personnel of GRU, GRU of the

Ministry of the Navy, knew that it will be handled (provoditsya)

that... the problem of my enrollment in the MGB is resolved; they

knew

that this question

is decided and therefore put me

at the

disposal of Personnel; that is, this so useless (boltayushcheyesya)

position which is before the moment

of

assignment (naznacheniye).

It can be two and three

months or a month

or a half-month or four

months.

A. How did the Personnel Department of Navy GRU find out that you were

processing (("'are processing" • Oformlyayetes')) for work in the MGB?

B. KALOSHIN, whom I told, first heard ((it)) from me.

OSCAR

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A. When was this?

B.

In January.

I told ((him)) in January.

Maybe on the 10th, maybe on the 8th;

I do not remember when

I was

there first.

I told them that I was processing... the question of my, of my

enrollment, of taking me to work in the Ministry for State

Security

is decided..

Because that work to which you sent me last time in Sovetsk, at the

Fourth... at the MRP of the Fourth Naval Fleet, does not suit me at

all, because this work (eto rabota) (1G) .

A. And what did you do for KALOSHIN at that time, when you stated

that....

B. I did not do anything.

I said that, in all probability, as far as I understood, they will

put you in the know officially somehow.

This they themselves already ((had done)) .

And, really, no one had told me, and, really, they already had put --

I have in mind the MGB Personnel (kadry MGB) - they officially had

put the GRU Personnel of the Ministry of the Navy in the know, but

they quickly asked about this, "give ((us)) the personal file

(lichnoye delo)", that no one had explained to ((or)) showed ((or))

told me, but GRU Personnel (kadry GRU), KALOSHIN, knew officially,

KALOSHIN

already knew, not from me, but GRU Personnel knew officially

that the question

about me is resolved in MGB Personnel (v kadrakh

MGB), and

they put me officially at the disp((osal))..., I became,

then, not as an officer of the MRP of the Fourth Naval

Fleet in

Baltiysk, in Sovetsk, but ((an officer)) at the disposal of

Personnel (v rasporyazheniyem kadrov), at the disposal of Personnel..

A. But you remember that... I again return to the old problem that

obscurities arise, of course more, not from ((our)) understanding

each other, but you said earlier what you are saying now,

it is

SCRET

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true that

earlier - one or two times - you said that you had

filled out the questionnaire (anketa) at ROZHENKO's, etc.,

but

there was a time (moment) when you said that they told you

in the

Personnel Department (otdel) of the MGB that "it ((is)) not necessary

fill out any kind of questionnaire (anketa), we have requested

your personal file (lichnoye delo)."

B. And wholly understandably; it may be that I ((did)) precisely ((that))

the second time, because - I am sitting and thinking, but why ((did))

I ((do so)) the second time - perhaps they gave me a questionnaire

the second time....

I do not remember, do not remember.

A.

Understand me; Counterintelligence (Kontrrazvedka) does not work

that way.

When a person has worked in Counterintelligence and tries to explain

and state that white is black and black, white, of course it is

difficult for the people who have been talking with you -- including

me - to believe that you are telling how in fact it was.

When a person once has said that "it ((is)) not necessary to fill

out anything, we have requested your personal file", and that is all

(i konets); now, in order to find an answer, you are trying somehow

to explain: "Maybe it was so the first time, but perhaps, the

second time."

I want to know the truth, in order that it be clear and definite

that you went to ROZHENKO, that you filled out a questionnaire, what

you did, etc., or it was that they requested your file from the GRU

and you did absolutely nothing there.

Because you told ((it)) one time thus, and then two times in another

way.

The truth must be somewhere, because it cannot be this way.

B. I am telling you the truth as it is; I was ((there)), I talked in

Personnel two or three times, I filled out a questionnaire, I filled

out a questionnaire; when did I fill out the questionnaire?

God knows!

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Whether they gave it to me right away or gave it to me later,

Or

perhaps they gave it to me when I already had

gone to work,

Personnel man (kadrovik) sitting in the Second Chief Directorate

(vo Vtoroy Glavke) -- ((chief -=)) SAKHAROV, Nikolay Grigor'yevich --

gave it to me - I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not

remember.

Absolutely.

I know

I filled out two

autobiographies, two questionnaires,

submitted

photos.

A. But why (("for

what" - k chemu)) fill out two autobiographies and

two questionnaires?

B. Uh, two copies.

A. Why?

B. I do not know.

A. Here, of course, in this event....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, then, where;

it is in the personal file

(lichnoye delo); look: here is a personal file on him, on him, on

him, but what is there; a personal file, but there is also an

insert

(vlozheniye) in the personal file, the special check (spetsproverka)

file,

which also is kept (khranit'sya) here

in the personal file, but

it ((can

be)) taken out.

It is, there is such

a folder (korochka), the special check file is

sewn into the folder.

Probably here (Navernoye syuda) .

A. To you, of course, every mortal man knows that there is a special

check file in the personal file, because without a special check they

do not take you into

the MGB, but it also is true that even when new

employees are taken on (dazhe pri postuplenii vnov' prinimayemykh)

they do not fill out two copies of the questionnaire.

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B.

..And later I filled out two more copies.

It may be that you could have filled out one copy later, one more

after a year, perhaps another after five years, and so forth, but

the Personnel Department needs only one good copy and absolutely

nothing more is needed.

B. Two copies.

I married, my wife, they gave two copies again

for completion on

my wife (dlya zapolneniya zheny).

A. We will be talking about this when we come to this marriage, and

we will return to this questionnaire.

I want you to understand what I am saying.

The next question - of which I had not wanted to remind you -

((concerns the fact)) that the questionnaire both for new employees

(vnov' prinimayemyye) and for KGB employees (sotrudniki KGB) is not

given to ((be taken)) home.

The biography, yes; you can write as much as you wish, even ten. "

The questionnaire is not given . and not because of distrust of a

Communist or of an employee - but only because it may be lost.

This is the only reason.

B. It may be.

It all may be.

But I took ((it)) home, and not ((just)) one time -- ((my)) wife

also filled ((it)) out at home.

A. When

you had begun work, later, this also must not be, but the

possibility is not excluded, that ((then)) you took ((it home)) -

I do not object to this so much; but when you had come for the first

time only and that they would have given ((it)) to you ((to take))

home - this question is completely ruled out.

Here is what I want to understand - you have told me that you took

((it)) or you did not take ((it))?

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B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

Maybe I took ((it)).

A. It is necessary

then to say:

I do not remember, and I do not know.

B. But I know that I filled out a questionnaire... and wrote an auto-

biography... to my thinking, I wrote this

at home, because I had,

I could not give the photos.

A. I want to remind ((you of)) one ((thing)): that if we will talk in

this way we will go slowly, we will go very slowly.

B. I cannot help you - forgive me, please, forgive me - I cannot

help you, because I answer thus as I know, what I know, but you

want....

A. ... I do not at all need anyone's help....

B. I understand.

You know your business.

A. I need only the truth.

The fact was and is that the questionnaire is not given ((to be

taken)) home.

You told me that you took it home.

I can in no way understand this.

I simply want to hear only one ((thing)) from you -- that you tell

me that "I filled ((it)) out" either here or not here; if "I took

((it)) home" - ((then you)) took ((it)) home; but they do not give

((it to be taken)) home; then you wrote it somewhere else?

B. In that or another event, I filled it out immediately, or, after I

was accepted, I filled it out at home.

In that or another event.

Only at home; the first questionnaire which was completed by me for

the MGB ((wife filled out)) only at home.

SESHET

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A. I do not want to do it so that you, you understand, knowing exactly,

I think, not knowing where you filled ((it)) out, you insist now,

as far as they try to obtain from me, where was this? - at home?

and I say that ((it was)) at home.

If we will work this way, we will not find a common language very

soon.

I only want one ((thing)) . that you answer just as it was.

If you do not know....

B. ((Interrupts)) I answer as I remember; the questionnaire was completec

at home.

Whether it was filled out immediately or later, I do not remember

this, but I filled it out at home.

A. ... It could not have been completed at home.

B. Well, it ((matters)) little that it could not.

But I filled it out at home.

A. This answer will satisfy no one.

B. I cannot sit and lie to you, no, only for the sake of satisfying you.

A. I certainly do not want you to lie to me....

B. (XG)... I believe that you want only the truth....

I am

answering you that, yes, I completed the questionnaire, I do not

know when, ((either)) immediately ((when)) they gave ((it to me)) or

later, but only

at home, at home.

A. My only reply to this can be only

one....

B. ((Interrupts)) And later I completed ((one)), also at home, at home..

A. At home, in that year when you entered, you could not have filled

((it)) out.

3RET

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That, afterward ((you completed a questionnaire)), as you said, when

you married, and so forth - it

goes without saying that this is

possible.

B. It goes without saying.

It was later, when....

A. I even allow for (dopuskayu)

an exception to the regulations or

if the discussion is of such a case (esli rech' idet) - if

a person

is working, then sometimes such a thing ((happens)), or the possibilit

((that)) it is given to employees whom they trust.

B. Understand; you were working ((there)); now you put the dots over

the "i"s with such a funny question.

A. It is

not a funny question.

B. It is

a funny question.

Funny.

Well, what; you know the regulation (polozheniye) that an employee,

an operational worker (operativnyy rabotnik), let us say, must not

in any event take home

a

single document.

You know in real life they take ((them))?

They take ((them)).

I have finished work; I ((have)) two meets (yavka) in the evening;

met the agent, but I have finished the last meet at' 10 o'clock in

the evening, at

9

o'clock in the evening; I am ((too)) lazy to go

such

a distance to put in the report (polozhit' doneseniye); I go

home and ((keep the report)) in my pocket; right?

((XG - A and B speak at the same time))

A. There must be some kind

of foundations for this, true?

But you have not given them to me.

You

say:

"I really (tochno) completed ((it)) at home."

SHET

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B. At home, at home, at home.

A. It does not happen so (("It is not so" - Ne byvayet tak)).

Imagine - in no way ((does it happen so)).

There must be some kind of foundations for your having filled it out

at home.

B. Well, what kind of foundation?

Well, what kind of foundation can ((there)) be?

A. I do not know.

I want

to understand, but I do not find ((any foundation)).

I would say to you even more....

B. Look here; if we continue further on this question I am afraid that

I myself will become confused; you will see ((this)) and say:

"Listen, ((B's surname)), what are you saying?

Now you told me one ((thing)); now you are telling me another, but

earlier, you told my colleagues -- a third."

You understand (vy poymite) that I will become confused.

A. As soon as I came here today, I said that my task, together with

you . :..

B. To untangle....

A.

..To straighten out everything.

B. Right.

But, you see, you... me.

You, say "untangle", and at the same time you ask me such details

which I do not remember:

"So, tell ((me)), and how was this?"

But I do not remember....

A. When I first asked you about the questionnaire and so on, you

said,

"I do not remember", but then you said: "At home."

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I waited a little and then I decided simply to say that it does not

happen so (ne byvayet tak).

You could have answered

me: "Perhaps at home, perhaps in the office,'

etc., but you are trying to state that ((it was)) definitely at

home.

Then I, knowing that this is not done at home, you must give me some

kind of foundation ((for)) why, why

this was so.

B. Why at home?

I can give the grounds

- because I even do not remember, mother,

this about relatives, and my mother, she was studying in the courses,

in the courses, in the period when she met father, in the courses,

but for the life of me; and then I do not remember what years she

was studying, where, what.

As concerns father, I know where he worked, there in Leningrad, the

street, the plant, such and such years, but I do not remember the

details about mother; therefore, I, I remember well that I filled

out the questionnaire at home.

I asked mother, "But how ((shall I)) put ((about)) you here?"

... "

A. I agree with this completely.

More, I can tell you - if you do not know or, perhaps, do not wish

to say; there is no secret about this, the whole world knows about

it - for the person

who fills out a questionnaire for the first

time for the KGB, it is rather difficult:

there is quite a number

of questions about both mother and father, etc., ((the answers to))

which the son perhaps does not know at all....

B. And absolutely does not know.

And therefore I say....

A. This is done in the majority of ((such)) cases - the person sits,

reads the questionnaire, ((sees)) approximately what kind of questions

((there are)), and then collects the information from his father,

mother, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, or ((about)) who ((ever))

else there was or was not, and then he comes the next time and

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finishes ((the questionnaire)), and so forth.

B. And finishes ((it)), I understand this.

I filled ((it)) out at home, filled ((it)) out at home.

A .

What then..?

B. ((Interrupts)) One minute; I do not remember, but I do not remember

exactly whether this Personnel man (kadrovik) gave me the questionnair

to fill

out.

((But)) then what did I hand over to him?

I remember I went over, rang him up, I gave him some documents.

And at that time, you understand, I have recalled another detail,

when I already had begun work in March, on the first day I came

SHUBNYAKOV talked with me; SHUBNYAKOV rang up GORBATENKO; GORBATENKO -

acting chief of the department (otdel) - took me tó his office, and

that day or the next the Personnel man (kadrovik) who previously was

in the Second Chief Directorate (vo Vtorom Glavke) - the one, the

Personnel man, who previously had been assigned (chislilsya) as an

officer of the Second Directorate (Vtoroye Upravleniye) - phoned me.

He called me ((to come)) to his office (("to himself" - k sebe)),

here on the sixth floor in Building 2, the corridor, and gave me

the questionnaires and ((Without certainty)) the biographies to fill

out.

It may be that I am confused here; maybe I did not fill out anything

for Personnel there, but what I filled out - what I am remembering -

is that which I received from SAKHAROV .

Well, I cannot say.

I am afraid of tangling myself up, etc.

A. Of course, it is possible to believe what you have said -- that it

happened the second time, etc. - but, you see, I do not want to

make any assumptions; you are a smart enough fellow and, having

thought for some time and with some leading questions, I think ((you

are)) of a condition to give a more or less satisfactory answer.

SEGRET

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B. No, no.

A.

I would wish that you would avoid such cases;

then we will find a

common language far more simply.

B. Then it will be better if I say straight out that I do not remember

this, I do not remember.

If I will say that I suppose that it must be so, ((then)) it must be

so, because I do not remember in detail ((the answer to)) this

question.

A. We are talking about the questionnaire.

Of course, each KGB employee who has written it several times cannot,

of course, say that he does not remember.

You understand that a person who has filled it out several times

cannot say that "I do not remember".

B. I do not remember how many times I filled it out.

((XG - A and B speak at the same time.))

A.

...I am speaking in general about the questionnaire and what the

questionnaire of an employee....

B.

...I am saying that I filled ((it)) out several times over my period

of work (na protyazhenii raboty) .

I filled ((it)) out several times.

A. One more question... a question of the questionnaire; you say, then,

that only "Questionnaire (Anketa)", and nothing more, is written on

the questionnaire; please....

B. No.... Each question (IG) .

A. What is the questionnaire itself called?

Here ((is)) a questionnaire; this word, "Questionnaire (Anketa)" ((is)

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there; that is not all; there is something else.

B. The questionnaire.

Well, there

at the top ((there)) is, at the top, the word, some kind

of form, the deuce knows, Form (forma)... 2 a, 21 or 2 b, but I do

not remember.

A. O.K. ((in English))

I am not even thinking about trying to remember what kind of form,

although I know this, etc.

No one is asking you whether this was form 27 or 26, 2b or 2d, or

whatever; no one pays attention to this.

B. It is (Eto idet) as if ruled (graflenaya), well, as if ruled, the

question....

A. Understand me.

A KGB employee who has completed the questionnaire several times

will know the name (nazvaniye) of this questionnaire.

B. "Questionnaire (Anketa)", and ((that is)) all.

A.

NO.

I have no intention of telling you.

B. ((It is)) not necessary to tell.

A. I think the day will come ((when)) I simply will show you.

B.

((It is)) not necessary.

A. I will show ((you)).

B. I know that I filled ((it)) out more than once (ne raz):

"Questionna:

(Anketa)", ((and that is)) all.

SEGRET

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A.

It certainly is not all (Vot imenno chto ne vse).

I want to understand: what is the main point

of this (("where is

the dog buried?" - gde zhe sobaka zaryta))?

B. I do not know what it is (gde ona zaryta).

A. If you filled ((it)) out several times, if you worked there ll years,.

then you will tell exactly what this questionnaire is called,

because this....

B. ((Interrupts)) You (XG) because of one form.

The form is ((number)) 21 or, let us assume, ((it is)) the fifteenth,

and a number (kolichestvo) of questions depend upon this.

A. We understand what we are talking about and of which questionnaire

(anketa) we are speaking.

Do we understand each other?

B. It is the comprehensive ((or "expanded" - rasshirennaya)), it is

the comprehensive questionnaire, and ((that is)) all.

A. Well ((in English) ).

And therefore, of

course, when you were talking with the other

people, I want to believe everything you are talking about, but

when you stop in the middle of a sentence, ((then)) it raises a

question

with

me of whether you do not want to tell me ((something)),

when

the whole world already knows this questionnaire, from the first

question to the last, and how many pages are in it; but when I am

talking with a former

employee, one who was the same as I and worked

((there)) 1l years, and he cannot tell me its name (nazvaniye eye),

this must, of course, raise some kind of question with me.

B. I do not know what it raises with you.

((It is called)) "Questionnaire (Anketa)".

((That is)) all.

01V

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A. Let us assume that there were two (?questionnaires?), but not

complete (polnyye), and - as they say - not ((wholly)) satisfying,

and it has not cleared up our question of....

B.

Excuse me, I cannot help you....

A. Our question of what business you had (o tom, kak Vy imeli delo)

with these questionnaires, when you started ((work)) or even after

you had been working?

B. I filled out the questionnaire in two copies, I filled out the

biography, ((that is)) I did not fill ((it)) out, but wrote the

biography in two copies.

A. After you talked with ROZHENKO - in Building 12, you said -- how

much time passed before you found yourself in Building 2 for the

first time?

B. In March.

A. When, approximately; do you remember?

B. ((Long pause)) (?Ah?) The middle of March.

((XG - B speaks in low, "unreadable" voice))

A. We will return

I would like to

to ((talk about)) the middle of March.

talk with you -- inasmuch as I was at STALIN'S

funeral and, if one may say so, took an active part at that time --

I would like to know where you were, well, for example, several days

before STALIN's death.

And after STALIN's death us announced and at the time of (vo vremya)

the funeral?

This is such a moment which....

B. Well, at the time of (vo vremya) the funeral I was in Moscow.

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A. Well, let us begin before the beginning (pred nachalom), when you

say that your father was a Minister and, of course, was in the

Kremlin many times, etc., and probably was at conferences (soveshchani

ye) of the Politbyuro.

STALIN's death, as they say, ((was)) a very great moment in the life

of the whole Russian or Soviet people.

They remember all of this well, how it happened, etc.

Let us

take

starting point before the death and at the time of

the death ((of STALIN)).

When

did

you first hear that STALIN ((was)) ill or that he ((was))

dead?

B. No.

((In an agitated voice)) It was announced that he ((was)) seriously

ill, that, it was announced even in the press and by radio that he

((was) ) ill....

A. ... Had you heard before this; for example, had you heard from

your father or from someone in higher circles that he ((was)) ill.

or something in this regard?

B. You understand how it ((was)) (Vy ponimayete v chem delo), literally

several hours, then they announced ((it)) immediately.

It happened at night.

It happened at night with him, as far as I remember the details, I

heard ((of it)) from father, well, then from father's circle

(okruzheniye) there and...:

A.

I am asking only that question; we will not talk ((of)) then ((when)),

of course, there were many conversations afterward: of when he

became ill, of when his stroke (udar) seized him, and so forth.

This was after everything already had become known; I am speaking

now of

before STALIN's illness; let us take ((for example)) the end

of February or the beginning

of March.

What

did you as a member of the family of a highly-placed person,

etc.,

what did you hear of the death of STALIN from someone - from

SECRET

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your father or mother or from someone else among your acquaintances

on s

that, something ((was)) not wholly in order (ne sovsem v poryadke),

with STALIN, in this line?

B. Well, could we not have heard ((of this)) from anyone.

It happened with him at night.

In the morning it already had been announced by radio that he had

a stroke (udar).

A.

Then I must make the conclusion that, before it was announced by

radio or in the newspapers, you had not heard from anyone of his

illness?

B.

No.

No, but I heard of his illness of some kind (o yego kakoy bolezni),

of this illness -- no.

I had heard that he ((had been)) rather (kakoy-to) strange of late,

((that)) he did not receive anyone; I had heard this.

A. Alright.

Let us come back to this: he was rather strange, he did not receive

anyone.

Approximately when did this happen?

B. It last was ((in)) 1952 and 1953.

A. Let us return again to one moment: the XIX Party Congress was in

October 1952, the last during his lifetime and...

B. Yes, yes.

A.

..And the first after the war...

B. Since 1938, after a long interval (bol'shoy pereryv).

A. And STALIN attended this Congress....

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B.

He made a speech, not big, brief.

A.

...He gave

a small brief speech, etc.

You yourself personally

had

heard something before this,

that he

had some kind of strangeness, etc.

This is my own (Eto u menya) ((interest))

I

am

not

examining you...

B.

No, no.

You see how it was, from where I had heard?

Well, I had heard such things from father, from father and from

father's group (okruzheniye otsa) -- MALYSHEV, VANNIKOV, KHRUNICHEv,

OKOPOV - "Of late, 'The Boss (Khozyain)' is not receiving anyone;

he is a little strange, he has changed, he has changed extremely

in recent years".

Well, here was in mind, I have in mind 1952, 1953, because in 1950 -

1951 I was not ((there)), I do not know, I was gone (ya byl v

ot'yezde), I arrived in 1952.

(1G) I have heard of strangeness (strannosti) of such a type, that

he was working (perenes rabotu) all night and in the morning, but

during the day, generally, they rarely see him, and he does not

permit ((anyone)) to approach him, and it is rare that one sees him.

At that, from my pal - Leonid PETROV, that is - I heard

a little,

other details of ((STALIN's)) personal life, how he acts.

A. But who is this PETROV?

B. His father, PETROV - Lieutenant Colonel PETROV

-- was working in

STALIN's guard (okhrana STALINA) .

A. In the guard around STALIN (V okhrane u STALINA)?

B. Yes.

And it was from him, from this Leonid I heard other details.

But this ((was)), he, let us say (predpolozhim), he ((i.e., STALIN))

spent time in such a way.

SEGRET

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A.

Where was Leonid himself working?

B.

Leonid himself, then he was a student, in general he is working six

months somewhere

at

one address (("'at one postal box address" -

implying, at a factory

which uses no publicly known address, but a

numbered post office

box address only)), then he works somewhere

else; he has

a lawyer's

education (obrazovaniye yurista) (2G).

A.

But, anyway, he did something ((did he not))?

You know, in the Soviet Union ((it is) ) difficult ((just)) to sit

( (and)) do nothing.

B. He graduated from Juridical Institute (yuridicheskiy institut) when

he was about 30.

A. He was a permanent student?

B. Yes.

He graduated from the Institute when he was about 30 years old.

He worked for a short time in various organizations.

((He is)) a pal who absolutely does not like to work, does not want

to work.

A. If he ((is)) a lawyer (yurist) in what kind of organization (vakakoy

organizatsii)?

Do you remember even one organization in which he was working?

B. No:

Why?

Because in the early years (osnovnyye gody) when he began work, I

graduated from the Institute in 1950, he graduated from the Institute

a little later (popozzhe), he is older than I, I was born in 1927, he,

in 1924.

He graduated a little later.

He began work, as a matter of fact, when I began in the MGB.

SECRE

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((The guard enters; everyone talks of cold tea and ice.))

A .

How long did his father work in the guard (okhrana), do you know?

B. Until his death.

He worked for many years.

He worked until his death.

A.

Where did they live, do you know.

B. He lived on Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)) .

A. On Third Meshchanskaya?

B. Yes.

The usual house, a communally-owned ((as compared with the Ministry-

owned houses; zhaktovskiy dom)) house.

A.

What number, do you not remember?

B. I do not remember.

A. You do not remember the number?

B. I remember it - this house.

A. And what was the father's name, do you remember?

B. Sergey, Sergey, because his Leonid ((is)) Leonid Sergeyevich;

Sergey PETROV.

A. The father ((is)) Sergey, and the son, Leonid?

B. Leonid Sergeich.

A. What, approximately, did Leonid tell you of STALIN's last days or

SEGRET

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of the next to last ((days))?

B. But that he there.... what he eats (kushayet), what he eats (yest)

there,

but

such questions.

He, you understand, was

working there in the household (v khozyaystve)

or ((some))where there - I do not know - in the guard, he saw how

and what... he

told details of ((how)) "The Boss (khozyain)" spends

time

in the hot-house (oranzhereya), that he is strange.

Let us say, there in the hot-house at Blizhnyaya Dacha in the

Vorob'yevyye Gory, there were several lemon trees.

Fruit appeared on these lemon trees ((and)) he ((STALIN)) counted

up how many.

Well, on one there ((were)) perhaps four, on another, six, I do not

know how many, and one lemon (("fruit" - plod)) fell.

A. It fell, yes.

Do not tell ((me)) about this, this is an old joke (anekdot) which

has been around (sushchestvuyte uzhe) for 20 years.

It is true, this happened, there was such athing, but this....

B. ((Interrupts))... He eats, how he (IG) ALLILUYEVA's sister - that

is, of the former, ALLILUYEVA was STALIN's wife, but her older

sister, of the wife, she was ((there)) as the housekeeper (ekonomka)

for many years...

Nadezhda, Nadezhda, it seems, ((was)) her name; he told about her.

A. But what did he say about ALLILUYEVA; what happened to STALIN's wife?

B. But this was not from PETROV; there were in general rumors about her;

I heard that she, that is ALLILUYEVA was killed by STALIN himself.

A.

How many persons, let us say, in your father's or your family's

position, how many knew about this?

Were there many people, or in general did everyone know about this?

B. No, no, no, no; that is, it was passed from person to person (('from

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ear to ear" - s ukho na ukho)) and (XG) he killed her out of (no

pochve)

jealousy.

A .

But what - he liked to chase the women (za babskimi yubkami

gonyat'sya)... out of jealousy.

Or he did something

else (Ili chem-to drugim zanimalsya).

B. No.

Well, for what there, out of jealousy (XG) .

A. What does it mean: she was with someone,

or he was with someone?

B. Supposedly, supposedly; there was even a rumor that VOROSHILOV

supposedly had made advances (priukhazhival) ((to her)).

How true this is I do not know, but.

((The guard has brought cold tea))

A. Please ((Offers tea.)).

B.

Thanks.

Well, he said that he ((STALIN)) often went at night (po nocham) to

the cemetery at Novo-Devichiy Monastyr', to her grave, at night.

At night (Noch'yu), he sat there for several hours when it was warm

(v teploye vremya).

Apparently, he had great feeling for ALLILUYEVA in his soul, if -

in spite of the many years . this was

after the war, and he

continued to go to the cemetery, to the grave, to ALLILuYEVA.

I have heard - you talk of women - I have heard that there were

some women.

A. For example.

B. Marina SEMENOVA, then, who?

A ballerina, she also went, went directly, to him; then,

then -

they talk, I do not know how much is true, about the singer, SHPILLER

SEGRET

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SHPILLER, I do not know how much is

true.

A. She is an old woman.

B.

So, ((wait)) one minute, this was not in later years, ((but in))

1946 - 1947, in these years.

Old woman, what kind of old woman;

she was about 40 years old, no

more.

A. And you yourself visited the PETROVS' apartment?

B. I was, I was not in the PETROVs' apartment, I was at the house, I

know the entrance to it (("where" - gde)), but I was not in his,

in Leonid's, apartment.

A. Where ((is)) this on Meshchanskaya ((Street))?

B. This ((is)) the middle of Meshchanskaya ((Street)).

A tall gray building, about six stories, it stands out, next to a.

somewhat smaller building.

Butthis ((is)) a communally-owned ((zhaktovskiy - see above)), not

an institutionally-owned (vedomstvennyy), building.

A. But do you yourself know Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)) well?

B.

No.

off Leonid.

I do not know ((it)) well, but have driven along it when dropping

A. We will return to the old question.

Approximately how much time did it take, after ROZHENKO had talked

with you and said, then, "please, now you will come to work"?

Who first made the suggestion that you go to counterintelligence;

how did this happen?

B. So, listen.

SEGRET

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I said that I was with this employee . he was a case officer (oper)

or a ((senior)) case officer (upolnomochennyy) .. two times, and

the third time, with ROZHENKO.

And

I did not know what, how, where it will be; the last phone call

was in the middle of March, come to my office (("me")) in Building 2,

at the fourthe entrance, and not to the Pass Bureau, but directly

at the fourth entrance there will be a pass for me.

A. Further, we stopped and began to talk of STALIN's attitudes

(otnosheniya).

When did you first hear that STALIN ((was)) dead; when did this

happen?

B. Officially, this ((was)) the second of March, the second, it seems,

of March, yes.

It was announced officially that at night, today, it was announced

in such form, tonight (segodnya noch'yu) it took place, but in

general the meaning was such that, you know, there is a stroke, a

state of shock, a brain hemorrhage occurred, well, there ahead of

the word, that serious a-a....

A. Well, this is not important.

A brain hemorrhage....

B. And that he is unconscious.

A. Unconscious.

B. Unconscious.

He was unconscious on the second and third ((of March)), and he

died

at night on the fourth.

A. Where were you at this time?

B. In Moscow.

"CHET

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A. Where in Moscow?

At your parents', or?

B.

At home with my parents, on Gor'kiy Street.

A.

But who first found out about this: your father, or you, or your

mother?

Who was the first, who heard ((about it)), what?

B. But I do not remember.

I do not remember how it was.

Who first: this one ((was)) first, that one ((was)) first (vot etot

pervyy, vot etot pervyy).

I remember that it was the first thing in the morning (bylo srazu

zhe utrom), to my thinking, of the second ((of March)) I found out

about this.

A. Can you tell me, approximately, what kind of conversation there was

at home when you learned that STALIN ((was)) dead?

What was your father's reaction?

B. Father was terribly depressed; mother, of course, was upset.

Father was terribly upset, depressed and shaken by this.

A. Further, after they had put STALIN....

B. In the Hall of Columns (Kolonnyy Zal)?

A. In the Hall of Columns of the House of Unions; how many times dia'

you visit the Hall of Columns of the House of Unions, while his

body was there?

B. ((Long pause; then, without certainty and in a low voice:)) I was

there only one time.

A. How did you get there?

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Under what circumstances did you make the visit (posetili)?

B. ((Long pause)) I went with father, because there was no other way

to get through (inache tam bylo ne proyti).

((It was)) awful, what had happened.

But they approached

(pod'yezhali) from what is now Marx ((Street)

(so storony

seychas Marksa), this is the government entrance (vkhod),

and the

Ministers

passed through here.

went

with father

straight here, but it ((was)) closed here, they

did not

permit cars

to pass; only a government vehicle could go

there (pod"yekhat').

I went with him here, he went up, I went, well, there ((was)) a

room where they could drink water, smoke, sit, rest, there ((was))

the hall, and I went through here, going with them, took off ((coats))

here, I already had gone through, I joined the whole crowd which was

going in from Pushkin ((Street)), but just outside the building I

joined ((the crowd)) and went through; ((Pause)) that is what I did.

A. Do you not remember who stood in the Honor Guard at this time?

B. No, I do not remember.

I do not remember.

A. How much time was STALIN there, in this Hall of Columns of the

House of Unions?

What unusual ((thing)) happened in Moscow during these days?

B. Well,

in Moscow there was... with the people... terrible... the

people

tried

to go

through... very many people, the streets ((were))

jammed

(perekryty), they crushed the crowd (massa) of people.

A. In what way did they

crush ((them))?

B. Well, a crowd (tolpa) gathers, let us suppose, in the by-streets

(pereulki); here a by-street is jammed with vehicles; they press

((those in)) the rear against ((those in)) the front; well, then,

13021

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the mounted Militia, in general, nightmarish....

A. What was the reaction of the Moscow citizens (moskvichi) to this

crushing

- so many people were killed, etc.?

B.

NO

one announced ((anything)) about this.

A. But all the same they know.

B. But there was the rumor that those bastards (svolochi takiye) are

crushing the people, they cannot get through (ne mogut pustit').

As if, so to speak, they are doing ((it)) especially, ((there was))

simply the fear that something can come up (('arise" -- vozniknut')).

A. How many ((times)) did your father go to the House ((of Unions))?

B. He was there every day.

Every day.

He went several days; they went several times a day; they went in.

the morning, during the day, in the evening, several times a day.

A .

He stood in the Honor Guard?

B. Yes.

A. Do you not remember on what day?

B. No.

He stood several times.

To my thinking, he stood each day.

Because they stood there only three to five minutes in all ((at one

time)).

And he could stand several times a

day.

A. But were you present at the funeral?'

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B. No, no, по.

A.

What -- you did not want to, or how ((was it))?

B. ((Long pause)) A pass was not written for me.

Only because, usually, when I was at home, before my departure for

the Far East, before my departure for the Far East, all holidays,

any holidays, ((observed)) in Red Square or at Tushino Airfield,

there

was always a pass for all the family, mother separately, and

for me.

for father, it goes without saying, ((a pass was prepared)) separately

But in this case (("here" - zdes')) apparently I had been absent,

you see, part of 1950, 1951, 1952, and when, at the beginning of 1953,

I was not registered (("am not registered" - ne chislyus')) in

Moscow, ((a pass)) was not prepared (ne vypisan) for me, to that

place (tuda) it was not again necessary, a pass for Red Square,

well, as ((is)) usual, if one goes with his family (yesli poyti

s sem'yami).

A. Then, you went?

B. I did not receive a pass.

A then you were not at the funeral?

B. No, no.

A. In what way were the funeral banquets, as they say in Russian,

organized at home after STALIN's death?

After the funeral?

What did they do in your home?

Was there some kind of special get-together (vecherinka)?

B. No, no.

Absolutely nothing.

Monk

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A.

Was your father invited somewhere with

someone?

the family, or did he invite

B. No, no, no; no one was a guest at our place, and ((there was)) no

funeral banquet; there was nothing at our home.

A. Nothing.

B. No.

A. Now,

we will return to that moment that you, then, ((when)) ROZHENKO

sent you to ((the Second Chief Directorate)).

B. No.

ROZHENKO did not send ((me)).

ROZHENKO only talked with me, but everything remained unclear for me.

Then what?

"You will be put in the know; you will be at the disposal; you will

be put in the know.

"As soon as there will be an order (prikaz) on you, you - they will

phone you - will be informed (Vam ob'yavyat)'.

And there was a phone call for me in the middle of March - it was

just after STALIN's funeral - that I should

come to

the fourth

entrance of Building 2, where - not in the Pass

Bureau,

but

directly at the entrance -- there will be a pass for me.

A. You went to the fourth

entrance of Building 2; what did you find ther

B. There

there was for me, at

the fourth entrance - you go in, they

check the pass

here; I said that there must be a pass for me here.

Now, one minute - ((said)) the duty officer (vakhter ofitser);

then the duty officers were officers, checking passes - later, they

were replaced

with sergeants-petty officers (serzhanty-starshiny);

I went up; yes, ((he said)) there is (yest'), please go in

(pozhaluysta, prokhodite).

(IG) to the reception room, to KOBULOV, Bogdan Zakharovich,

who

SECRET

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from the moment after STALIN's death

-- when the Ministries, the

MVD ((and)) the MGB, were combined in one MVD -- he was then

appointed First Deputy.

They took him from Germany, from GUSIMZ ( (Chief Directorate of

Soviet Property Abroad)), as First Deputy.

A. You do not remember until what time he was in Germany?

B. Until (('until the moment of" - do momenta)) STALIN's death; he

returned ((Pause)), he returned to the Ministry for State Security

(Ministerstvo Gosbezopasnosti), to the MVD.

A. You are sure, and you know ((this)) exactly?

B. Exactly, exactly; absolutely, because the new Ministry:

they

combined the MVD and the MGB; the Minister -- BERIYA; the First

Deputy - Bogdan KOBULOV .

A. But I am saying, do you know exactly that he came from Germany at-

this time?

B. No, he came as soon as it happened with STALIN.

A. But before this time, you had met him in January; he,

what

back to Germany?

- went

B. In January, when I saw him - as far as I remember

-- he was for a

time, for a short time - either they called him to

Moscow or he had

come for New Year's, a short period, but he had to go back to Germany.

To his "BISMUTH'' (V Vismut svoy) .

A. At the fourth entrance they gave you a pass, and you yourself went

to l00k ((for the office))?

B. No, ((it was)) indicated there, the office ((was)) indicated, room

such-and-such; this was the third floor, on the third floor.

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390... I do not remember which room (kakaya eto komnata).

The third floor, ((it was)) indicated.

I went there.

I took off ((my coat)).

You go in, here

sits some sort of secretary (vrode sekretar'), on

- the left ((is)) the reception room - several

persons were sitting.

Then, still another office (yeshche odin kabinet) - this was not a

secretary, but KOBULOV's assistant (pomoshchnik), SAVITSKIY.

They directed me to him.

SAVITSKIY said:

"Wait, take off ((your coat)), sit down."

I sat for an hour or an hour and a half, here in the reception room.

SAVITSKIY again called me and says: "You know what: Go to six

hundred... six hundred... six hundred forty... seven, Room 647 of

Building 2.

"Bogdan Zakharovich ((is)) very busy; ((go)) directly to Comrade

SHUBNY AKOV."

Who is this, who is this; he told me absolutely nothing.

And I left this SAVITSKIY; I had spent the time sitting in the

reception room, and no one had received me, but according to. ((my))

idea ((of things)), KOBULOV, Bogdan, should have received

me; I

went to the sixth floor, to Room 647, to SHUBNYAKOV -- First Deputy

of FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich, Chief of the Second Chief Directorate -

SHUBNYAKOV .

I went to this Room 647.

The secretary, I said to the secretary that he ((SAVITSKIY)) had

sent me to Comrade SHUBNYAKOV, ((that)) Comrade SAVITSKIY had sent

((me)) from Comrade KOBULOV's reception room.

"One minute" ((he said)).

He went to him, reported; "Now, go in" ((he said)).

I went in, to Comrade SHUBNYAKOV .

SHUBNYAKOV is sitting alone.

And here I found out that I will be working -- and that there already

is an order - and that I am assigned (chislyus') in the Second

Chief Directorate and that I will be working in the First Department

(otdel), the First Section (otdeleniye).

He rang up Acting (("I.0.": ispolnyayushchiy obyazannosti)) Chief of

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the First Department GORBATENKO.

A.

Who is this (kto takoy) GORBATENKO?

B. At the moment of my arrival, he was Acting Chief of the First

Department.

Soon after, at the end of March or in the beginning of April, he was

assigned as Chief of the Department, of the First Department.

He ((SHUBNYAKOV)) rang up GORBATENKO, introduced ((me)), "Here is

your new employee, Comrade ((B's surname)); the order on his

assignment to the First Department, First Section as a case officer

already has been signed; ((that is)) all;

go".

I went, talked with GORBATENKO.

GORBATENKO rang up KOZLOV, Chief of the Section, and on the following

day I went to work.

A. Well, what, practically, did SHUBNYAKOV tell you?

Explain to me.

About what did you talk with SHUBNYAKOV?

B. I arrived.

He said

-- again, I will not tell you word for word; I do not

remember word for word; I will give the sense of that conversation,

as it was.

But again, briefly, I told him about myself, briefly, in several

words.

I told that I was born there (tam-to), I graduated from the Institute

of International Relations and began work in the GRU line (po linii

GRU), I had worked in the Far East and on the Baltic, everything.

"What language did you study?"

English.

Well, briefly, about myself.

"Well, here, there is an order on you, on your assignment to the

First Department, a counterintelligence Department, working against

American intelligence, against the American Embassy; you will be

working in the First Section, as a case officer".

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A.

But did you know at that time what a case officer is?

B. I did not know anything.

And I had absolutely no understanding of what a case officer ((is)),

of what a senior case officer ((is)).

A. Probably they explained to you?

B. ((They explained)) that

it is an officer's position (dolzhnost'),

that

it

is a beginning

(pervonachal' naya) ((position)), that we

have the junior (mladshiy) case officer the... ((one)) minute...

was he called "junior" then?

Assistant case officer (Pom. opera)?

I do not remember: junior or assistant case officer.

It means - first, then case officer, senior case officer.

Well, you understand, you have not been working with us, you are

only beginning, we cannot give you "senior", but "junior" also is

not for you (Vam ne dayet), because you have graduated from the

Institute and you already have even some kind of work experience, "

some kind of experience of work in the GRU.

Alright (khorosho), I do not know how much this paid (skol'ko eto

zarplaty), that, nothing, absolutely nothing....

For me, this absolutely....

A.

But were you interested?

What kind of pay, what?

В. No, по, по, по.

I did not even ask..

A .

When they assigned (chislili) you

there,

assigned?

with

what

rank were

yOu

B. As a lieutenant.

It was as a lieutenant.

CRET

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A. Lieutenant?

B. Lieutenant.

A.

And what did they do for you; ((did they make)) some kind of tag

((or "addition" - pripiska)) to the rank, lieutenant,

or not?

B. Absolutely none.

Absolutely.

I understand of what you are asking.

Absolutely.

A. Was it said from what date you would be assigned (zachislyayetes')?

B. It was said that the order ((had been)) signed, the order on me ( (had

been)) signed; he rang up GORBATENKO; GORBATENKOsaid the order

regarding (v otnoshenii) ((B's surname)) ((has been)) signed; let

him take ((his)) place, define ((his duties)), begin work.

A. Do you not remember exactly on what date the order ((was)) signed?

B. But I do not remember - the twelfth, the fifteenth, well, the

middle of March.

A.

The order was ((effective)) from that day on which you began work or

earlier?

B. No, as far as I understood, I think that on this very day when they

phoned me, probably the order had been

signed in

the morning.

Whether on the twelfth

or the fifteenth, but the order already had

been signed, ((and)) therefore they called me.

A. You were working there.

What kind of pay did you receive?

B. It means, so:

The basic pay (oklad) was 1,700 ((rubles)) plus 500

SECRET

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((for)) rank (zvaniye), and then I got another (i zatem mne shlo

uzhe) 5%; plus, yes, 10%, 10% -- this ((was for)) language, well and

this, after about two or three months, 10% for secrecy (sekretnost'),

after two-three months, ((for)) language, because it was

necessary

for me to pass an examination, here, at the courses (na

kursakh) on Kisel'nyy (v Kisel'nom) ((Bol'shoy Kisel'nyy pereulok --

where the Higher School of the KGB is located)); I passed the

examination, and ((received)) another 10%; in all, then, 25%.

2,200 ((rubles)),: plus 25%.

A. This 5% ((was)) for what?

B. Length ((in years)) of service (vysluga).

A. For length of service?

B. Yes.

A. You remember this exactly - that the basic pay was 1,700?

B. 1,700, yes.

1,700, ((and)) 500.

Then, soon afterward, soon afterward, literally, whether

at the

end of 1953, to my thinking, they took

away ((the pay)) for rank

(za pogony); we received only the basic pay, ((the pay for))

secrecy, and they did not pay for rank.

A. When did this begin?

B. To my thinking, the end of 1953, the beginning of 1954; I do not

remember.

Then, this was, it continued approximately a year, then again they

returned ((to paying)) for rank (za zvaniye).

A. Well, approximately; you must know exactly the pay (zarplata), etc.

When did they stop (srezali) paying for rank?

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B. I remember that over the period of a year (v techeniye goda), this...

whether in the end of 1953,

in

the beginning of 1954, they stopped

paying for rank. ((Pauses))

They did not pay for approximately a year (primerno

y techeniye goda).

A.

And then in what year did they begin again to pay?

B. Well, after a year.

A.

Is it that you are saying that at the end of 1953

or in the beginning

of 1954 they stopped paying?

B. Yes.

Well, then, in 1954, they were not paying; in 1955, they already

were paying again.

A. In 1955, they had begun to pay again?

B. Yes. ((Pauses))

I do not remember the date exactly.

A. Why did they take away ((the pay)) for rank?

B. The economy struggle (Bor'ba za ekonomiyu)... In the Council of

Ministers (v SovMine), in the Council of Ministers (v Sovets

Ministrov).

A. This probably was somehow explained to the employees?

B. It was explained that we consider that we

alone of (1G) of the

Ministry, we ((are)) the most highly paid.

A. So.

B. The most (naiboleye) highly paid, and ((they)) were the most (samyye)

highly paid.

SEGRET

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A.

Upon whose suggestion (predlozheniye) was this done?

It was the suggestion of someone in the Presidium.

I do not remember whose suggestion; a resolution (resheniye) was

adopted in the Presidium.

But it did not continue long.

It continued...

for

a year.

The

problem was resolved

anew.

A.

But why did they begin to pay again?

Who made this suggestion?

B. I do not know.

They began to consider the work of the MVD - the Ministry, this was

the former MVD; there still was no KGB then

-- they compared ((it))

to the Army.

A. They were compared to the Army before this.

B. You even asked me whether they made a tag ((or "addition" - pripiska))

to my rank; I say no.

There, they were, you see, Major of State Security (Mayor Gosbezo-

pasnosti), Senior Lieutenant of State Security, and so forth.

This was not the Army.

A. When was this?

B. Well, this was before the war and during the war (v gody voiny),

during the war and even after the war.

A. Until approximately what time?

B. I do not know until what time approximately.

I... did not have such a tag (pripiska) to my rank; I began to work

in 1953.

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A. But someone among those working at this time had such tags?

B. ((Long

pause)) Well, I do not remember, I do not remember.

Because ((when)) I came, then there was no State Security; then,

there was

the

Ministry

of Internal Affairs.

Colonels, lieutenants, without the addition (bez dobavleniya) of

"GB

((State Security - Gosbezopasnosti))"

, without the addition.

A. But how

did they unite the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the

Ministry for State Security?

What ranks did they have -- those who were working in the MGB and

those who were working in the MVD?

B. ((Long pause; talks to himself in a low voice, repeating the

question:) It means, what ranks?

A. What kind?

What difference in ranks was there between the MVD and the MGB?

B. But in the MVD -- this ((is)) the Militia (eto Militsiya): Colonel

of Militia, Lieutenant of Militia, or Commissar of Militia.

A. But what else did they have?

They had, you see, not only the Militia alone (ne tol ko odna

Militsiya) before the time when they were joined (prisoyedinilis').

B. Well, there were the Convoy Troops, there were the camps, the

Construction Troops, there were...

A. What kind of ranks did they have?

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A. You began work when the MVD already had begun (stalo), when BERIYA

had taken over (vzyal verkh) and they had combined the MVD and the

MGB.

ACCRET.

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People from the MVD and the MGB began to work together; what kind

of difference in ranks was there ((between)) those who had worked

previously in the MVD and those who had worked previously in the

MGB; now, they ((were)) together; what kind of difference in ranks

existed between them?

B. I do not know, I do not know what kind of difference.

A. What -- one was called (odni nazyvalis') Major of Internal Affairs;

the other, Major of State Security, or how?

B. The point is that there was no tag (pripiska) ((like)) this "State

Security (Gosbezopasnosti)"

((When)) I began work, there was no such tag (ne bylo etoy pripiski).

A. But, in the MVD, what kind of tag was

there?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Are you exactly certain that they paid you the basic pay (oklad) as

a case officer?

B. I began

as

a case officer, as a case officer.

A. 1,700 rubles?

в. 1,700.

A. And 500?

B.

500 for rank (za zvaniye).

A. For rank?

B. They took away ((the pay for)) rank and... there was left -- the

basic pay for position (dolzhnostnoy oklad) plus,

then, ((for))

SECRET

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secrecy, plus ((for)) language, percentages only (protsentnyye tol'ko)

A. You are saying, anyway (vse), that they took away the pay for rank

(za

zvaniye snyali platit')

at the end of 1953.

B.

In fifty-... I think... I do not know exactly, I think that ((it was))

at the end of 1953.

A. You remember exactly that you received ((pay)) for rank, but then

began not to receive (ne stali poluchat') ((such pay))?

B. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

A. Then began not to receive ((this pay))?

B. Did not receive, yes.

A. But then again began (stal)?

B. But then again I began to receive ((it)).

A. Let us go back a little, to....

B.

This was, you see, a very short period, to my thinking, when the

MGB and the MVD were combined under one Ministry and they were in

one Ministry, a short period.

A.

.. When, officially, did they organize the KGB?

B. In 1955, or 1954; 1954, it seems, or 1955.

((Wait a)) minute.... ((Pauses))

We were even in 1954 or 1953; at one time the Second Directorate

was called. for approximately six or eight months . the First

Directorate.

But the First Directorate was the Second Directorate. ((Pauses))

I do not remember... I do not remember.

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A. You remember, approximately, when they arrested ABAKUMOV?

B. Uhhh, ABAKUMOV, oho, they arrested before my time of service

(("'before me" - do menya)) .

A.

But approximately when?

You worked there so many years, there were conversations....

B.

ABAKUMOV was arrested when IGNAT'YEV was Minister.

A. When was IGNAT'YEV Minister?

B. IGNAT'YEV was Minister until STALIN's death.

A. You remember who were his Deputies?

B. I was not working ((then)), I do not remember.

I know,

I heard that GOGLIDZE was a Deputy ((Minister)); he was

( (Deputy Minister)) under both ABAKUMOV and IGNAT'YEV.

A .

Who else?

B. ((Long pause)) MASLENNIKOV, to my thinking, was at one time, yes.

One of the Deputies was SV INELUPOV .

Who was not there (Kogo tam tol'ko ne bylo)?!

BLINOV and RYASNOY and SAVCHENKO and... they all changed... and

OGOL ' TSOV .

A. I have in mind only that period when -- as you began to say --

IGNAT'YEV was Minister; who were his...?

B. I do not know; I do not know.

Because I was not working in this period (2G)....

A. I understand.

You say that you were not working ((then)), but after this ((period))

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you were working there for a long time; you probably, when you

arrived there,

there were conversations:

that ((one)) was,

that

( (one)) was....

B.

I say:

there was RYASNOY, SAVCHENKO; they were Deputies.

A. To IGNAT'YEV?

B. To IGNAT'YEV, yes.

A. You are certain of this?

B. No, no, no; I am not certain, not certain.

I do not want to tell you, because I do not know exactly; I am not

certain.

I know that they were working; at what time - to my thinking,

under IGNAT'YEV (u IGNAT'YEVA).

A. Think about this a little; who else were IGNAT'YEV's Deputies?

B. ((Pauses)) I do not know.

I was not working ((there, then)).

I was not working during IGNAT'YEV's time, no.

A. But what happened with GOGLIDZE?

B. Well, GOGLIDZE was arrested when BERIYA was arrested.

A. And MASLENNIKOV?

B. MASLENNIKOV?

This one shot himself.

It is not known why.

They say that he left a letter for the government (pravitel'stvo).

But the reasons - no one announced anything.

But this was after STALIN's death, later, MASLENNIKOV.

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A. And what of SVINELUPOV?

B. He was removed (("These were removed" - Eti byli snyati)).

SVINELUPOV, he had been removed previously (eto byli snyati ran' she) .

He (Eto) was the Personnel man (kadrovik) under ABAKUMOV.

A. When, previously?

You are saying that he was under MASLENNIKOV... under IGNAT'YEV?

B. I do not know exactly.

I am saying that they worked in ABAKUMOV's IGNAT'YEV's time, such

people.

But when they, what years, when they were removed,

were appointed -

I do not know this.

A. I do not want to drag you back to ABAKUMOV, etc.;

I simply asked

how you knew who was ((there))?

You said that IGNAT'YEV was Minister....

B. ... IGNAT'YEV was Minister....

A. ... And my question was, who were his Deputies?

You said: GOGLIDZE, MASLENNIKOV, SVINELUPOV, SAVCHENKO, RYASNOY . ...

B. No.

I am saying that ((they)) were, but who was, I am not certain.

Because I do not know

exactly who were IGNAT!YEV's Deputies, who

were ABAKUMOV 's;

I do not know, I do not know.

I know that at one time ((they)) were Deputies in this Ministry...

I gave his name (Ya nazval yego familiyu).

A. Of course,

in each Ministry there are Deputies.

B. No.

((It is)) simply that I heard the names;

it could have been

OGOL 'TSOV, RYASNOY, SAVCHENKO, SVINELUPOV, BLINOV; who else?

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This one (Eto) I call MGB, MGB, this one ((was)) MGB, this one ((was))

MGB.

A. Do you remember anyone else who was under IGNAT'YEV?

B. Oh, oh, oh; this very, a "climber" (bylez), a phenomenal career,

((one)) of the investigators (sledovatel'), a "comer" (brosok)...

how ((was)) his...?

He was

a senior investigator and up to (do) Deputy Minister....

A. Who?

RYUMIN?

B. Yes, yes, yes;

exactly.

A. What happened with RYUMIN?

B. Together.

When they removed IGNAT'YEV, they removed him, also.

RYUMIN was on the Doctors' Plot ((''Case" - po delu vrachey)) .

This ((was)) the Doctors' Plot; this ((was)) RYUMIN.

A. And what happened with IGNAT'YEV after they had removed him?

B. IGNAT'YEV went to the Tatar ((Autonomous Oblat)), as First

Secretary, to the Tatar ((Autonomous Oblast)); it was surprising that

IGNAT'YEV remained in such a big post, having the Doctors' Plot on

his back.

As First Secretary in the Tatar ASSR, the Autonomous Oblast.

A. Did you hear from anyone what part the Second Chief Directorate

took in this Doctors' Plot and ((the case of)) the

letters of Lidiya

TIMASHUK?

B. I do not know the details.

I only know only one interesting detail.

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I do not know ((whether)) it is interesting or not interesting.

When I came, when I had

arrived - here is what is interesting -

SHUBNYAKOV phonedne, he talked with me, he phoned GORBATENKO,

GORBATENKO talked with me, and

this very day I saw the Chief of the

First Department - that is, you understand, he still was assigned

((chislilsya), but was not working, then was not working, as Chief

of the First Department - Colonel KOZLOV, Anatoliy Sergeyevich.

A. Everyone in the world knows him (Yego vse znayut, vo vsem mire);

we do not need to talk about him (ne sleduyet o nem razgovarivat').

B. No, here, he took part on the Doctors' Plot (v dele vrachey) ; he

took part; they sent (brosili) him to the Special Investigative,

Investigative Unit (chast') for Especially Important Cases; they

sent (brosili) him for (na) the Doctor's Plot, and he took what

part?

They called up all these doctors who had been arrested and persuaded

them to give testimony (pokazaniya) that everything that they had

said before this was untrue, that this was taken only by beating "

(tol'ko bitvem), that they had told

lies (nepravda).

And the poor doctors did not know whether to tell lies now or to

tell the truth.

A. But finally they agreed to tell the truth.

B. In general, they convinced the doctors to admit that the previous

testimony had been incorrect.

It was in

this that KOZLOV took part.

And therefore I

said, when GORBATENKO, his Chief of Department

(yego nachal'nik otdela), because KOZLOV continued to be assigned

(chislit'sya) as Chief of the Department....

But, TIMASHUK, then, I heard that they took back the Order of Lenin,

that it ((the case)) was "manufactured (dutoye)".

TIMASHUK was an agent.

A.

But not only heard.

ARET

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It was announced in the newspapers.

B. In the newspapers, it was announced only that the Order

of Lenin

had been taken away from her.

A.

But that... you mentioned SAVCHENKO; what was

During

IGNAT' YEV's time.

he doing at this time?

B. They were, in order, in IGNAT'YEV's time, they were, in order,

SAVCHENKO, RYASNOY, Chiefs of the First Directorate, the Intelligence

Directorate (Upravleniye Razvedki).

SAVCHENKO was ((Chief)) at one time; before this, SAVCHENKO had

worked in the Ukraine, but here, in Moscow, in Moscow, he was Chief

of the first Directorate (Upravleniye Pervoye).

He was ((Chief)) at one time; then, one time, RYASNOY.

Then RYASNOY was Deputy, then RYASNOY was Chief of the Moscow

Directorate (Moskovskoye Upravleniye).

That is what I heard (Vot takoye, takoye, slyshal).

A.

What happened to RYASNOY later?

B. He was retired (V otstavke on).

He was retired, on pension, and did not work anywhere.

Why do I know?

Because I was living at the dacha of one of the colleagues with

whom KOVSHUK worked; the dacha was

near RYASNOY's (dacha byla ryadom

S RYASNYM) .

A. But what of SAVCHENKO?

B. SAVCHENKO (A SAVCHENKO) ....

( (End of Reel #1; Reels #1 and #2 "overlap"))

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