SUMMARY OF DEBRIEFING OF (SUBJECT)
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 02/19/1969
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Date: 10/18/00

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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

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AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : CIA

RECORD NUMBER

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RECORD SERIES : JFK

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

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TO :

TITLE : SUMMARY OF DEBRIEFING OF (SUBJECT)

DATE

: 02/19/69

PAGES : 10

SUBJECTS : NBR

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION : SECRET

RESTRICTIONS : 1B, 3

CURRENT STATUS : POSTPONED IN FULL

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 04/07/94

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

JFK38: F9 1994.04.07.15:45:01: 680006: NOT BELIEVED

RELEVANT (NBR) .

DECLARED NBR BY ARRB.

DIF

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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Summary of Debriefing of Thomas L. Roberts

(19 - 21 February 1969)

1949

Feb 1950

July 1950

1950-1953

Oct 1953

While an undergraduate student at Harvard, Roberts on

his own initiative contacted the Boston office of the FBI

when he became aware that the student movement was a

highly sophisticated

and organized one under outside

direction.

Roberts' contact with the FBI was an agent

named McLaughlin. At one point Roberts planned a trip

to Paris and was

requested to take a written message to

some leftist students in Paris, which activity was approved

by the FBI.

Roberts had completed his courses at Harvard but had

not

written his thesis and had some disagreement with the

school authorities as to the subject of his thesis required

for receiving honors. Therefore, Roberts went to Paris in

February 1950 and remained there for three months returning

in June for his graduation. While in Paris Roberts contacted

French student organizations which had received invitations

from the Yugoslavian students to send a delegation of students

to visit Yugoslavia. Roberts was invited to visit Yugoslavia

with the group. He did report this to the legal attache at

the American Embassy in Paris.

The FBI contacted Roberts who was working with tree crews

in Bangor, Maine, and outlined to Roberts a program of

targets, namely the Labor Youth League and the Student

Division of the National Lawyers Guild, since Roberts had

been accepted by Harvard Law School.

While a student at Harvard Law School Roberts became a

national

co-director of the Student Division, National

Lawyers Guild, and, as such, was a member of the

National Board of the Lawyers Guild reporting his

activities to the FBI throughout his student years.

Roberts was admitted to the Massachusetts bar and took

a job with a Boston law firm of Dodd & Greenberg, which

firm was engaged principally in admiralty matters,

and

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Aug 1955

Roberts did quite a bit of trial work. Greenberg

was a

member of the National Lawyers Guild and Roberts dis-

cussed his joining the firm with the FBI who expressed

no objection. Roberts' initial salary was $20.00 per

week although they did pay a bonus.

Roberts felt that his career opportunities in Boston were

limited and went to New York City and contacted a lawyer

by the name of Clarence Ferguson who had been in law

school at the same time Roberts was. Ferguson suggested

that Roberts approach the firm of Delson, Levin & Gordon.

It was at this time that Roberts met Herbert Itkin who was

considered the fair-haired boy of the firm. In addition,

Itkin's mother was the firm's bookkeeper.

Max Delson was

the senior partner of the firm and Itkin

reported directly to

Max Delson.

Cyrus Gordon engaged in legal work for the

building trade unions. Harold Levin was the third partner.

Some of the associates of the firm at that time were Carl

Slater, Louis Bial, Ernest Kaufman, Mario Procopio,

Joshua Greenbaum, and Roger Wilkins, a nephew of Roy

Wilkins.

The law firm represented the Government of

Indonesia, and all members and associates were registered

with the Department of Justice.

In the firm's business,

Itkin was considered excellent in developing client relation-

ships but was not considered a law technician by Roberts,

and Itkin frequently relied on Roberts to assist him with the

legal matters.

Roberts stated the normal working hours of

the law firm were 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., and it was his

recollection that Itkin did work much longer hours.

There

was available a copying machine since many times it was

necessary to send documents related to cases to other

members of the firm or to file papers with the court, etc.

This point was asked specifically to determine if in fact

Itkin could have copied files and turned them over to

Philip Harbin (sic) as he has claimed to have done.

Roberts' contacts with the FBI were lessened at this time

and to his knowledge no members of the law firm were

members of the National Lawyers Guild, nor was there

any indication that any member of the firm knew Roberts

was affiliated with the Guild at this time.

Roberts bought

a cooperative apartment on West 82nd Street from a Carl

Marzani who was of interest to the FBI. Another target

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1956-1957

Apr 1957

1958

of the FBI was Dan Watts, a Negro architect and Black

Nationalist editor. Herbert Itkin's father-in-law, E. Kent

Kane, used to frequent the law offices with proposals to

invest sums of

money in oil exploration schemes.. Kane's

financial status was described as vacillating from being

very wealthy to being wiped out.

It should be noted that during this period Roberts was

Chairman of the New York City's chapter of CORE. The

FBI was interested in the activities of CORE at this time

and Roberts reported to them on certain aspects. Indi-

cations were that the younger associates at Delson, Levin &

Gordon, namely Herbert Itkin, Walter Hertz, Mario Procopio,

Joshua Greenbaum and Thomas Roberts submitted to the firm

a profit-sharing plan for fees on personal injury cases which

these associates brought into the firm. After six months,

the firm had not taken any action on the plan, and Itkin,

Roberts and Greenbaum decided to leave and

set up their

own firm.

Each partner contributed $5,000 to the establishment of the

firm.

They were all equal partners on a share and share

alike basis. The three partners then leased offices at

270 Madison Avenue and Mario Procopio came to work. full

time with

the firm as an associate. A Professor John

Calameria

from Fordham Law School was a part-time

employee as was Professor Ray O'Keefe, also from

Fordham Law School.

An unusual occurrence was that the law firm of Itkin,

Roberts & Greenbaum invested about $100,000 in a bowling

alley operation in the vicinity of Columbia University. The

significance was that the firm lost their investment when

the Mafia decided they were going to assume control of

the bowling alley operations and squeezed the firm out of

this venture.

It was later understood that as remuneration

for their $100, 000 loss, the firm was subsequently engaged

as counsel for a group of tavern owners who were organized

in Greenwich Village.

The obvious relationship to the

Mafia was indicated when Roberts one day stopped in at

one of the taverns for lunch and was introduced as a

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1959

June 1960

Late 1960

OF°

Early 1961

Apr 1961

member of the law firm who represented the tavern

owners' association at which time he was advised of

the name of the individual who had shot Costello, the

Mafia leader.

Roberts could not recall the name and

did not report this information to the FBI.

Roberts went to the Communist Youth Festival in Vienna

and the FBI paid part of his expenses. He was accom-

panied by his brother, Alfred Roberts, a Dr. W. Godfrey

Cobrenner, an associate professor of sociology, and a

Varda Rozowsky, an Israeli who taught at the Wiltbert

School for Boys.

The Itkin, Roberts & Greenbaum firm moved to 103 Park

Avenue and took on expanded office space, and three

accountants joined in renting office space from the firm.

It was at this time that Roberts' FBI activities picked up

because of their increased interest in CORE, and at the

same time Roberts became affiliated with African political

refugees. Some of the people with whom he had contact

were

Barumba Karena, Oliver Tambo, Sam Njoma and

Jararetunde Kozanguize. The principal aspects were the

United Nations trusteeship related to Southwest Africa and

the problems that arose when South Africa took over control

of Southwest Africa.

Roberts became more dissatisfied with the slipshod method

of operations by which the firm's business was being carried

on, specifically, that dates for filing court papers were

ignored, statutes of limitations on claims were expiring,

and generally it was a poorly run office. Roberts was

faced with a dilemma of whether to remain practicing law

or pursue some government employment.

He was inter-

ested in possible Peace Corps work and had received ar

offer from Lester Granger, Director of the Urban League,

to accept a job with either

the Treasury Department or

the Justice Department.

Roberts made an appointment and came to Washington to

talk to Robert Amory, the then DDI, who had previously

taught Roberts at Harvard. After talking with Mr. Amory,

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July 1962

Roberts decided to apply for employment with CIA and,

as far as he recalls, he was never overtly processed.

Roberts was under cover during his processing and

training. After deciding to work for CIA, he then made

a decision to take a leave of absence from the law firm.

He talked with his partners and reached an agreement

whereby the firm would pay him $100 a week for two

years as a means of retrieving

his capital from the firm.

Roberts indicated that his cover for coming to Washington

was a general statement of being involved in work for the

Peace Corps.

This was never questioned by any member

of the firm, and none of them

were advised of his true

employment. Prior to Roberts' entering the training

program at Isolation, he was instructed to make one

member of his family witting and he chose to advise his

brother, Alfred.

Roberts recounted the fact that while

in training at Isolation he spent most of the time on the

base, but when he did have to leave he traveled only by

plane.

A rather humorous note,

however, was Roberts'

description of some of the operational exercises he went

on in Norfolk and Richmond.

While involved in this

training program Roberts indicated to his various contacts

in New York City, other than those with the law firm, that

he was actually spending time in the Midwest doing some

work for CORE but was attempting to recruit people for

the Peace Corps.

This story appears to have been

plausible because at one point Sargent Shriver, then head

of the Peace Corps, did try to contact Roberts through

his old firm. It should be noted that Roberts' record of

monies received from his former law firm are as follows:

15 September 1961

• December 1961

10 January 1962

1 June 1962

18 June 1962

-

-

$200.00

100. 00

100.00

100.00

500.00

Roberts went to Paris and there became a charter member

of the American Society for African Culture (AMSAC). The

Executive Director of AMSAC was John Davis, professor of

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May 1963

July 1963

Dec 1963

& Jan 1964

political science, New York University, who was a

member of the New York State. Commission Against

Segregation.

He remained in Paris until January 1963,

studied French speaking courses, and made contact with

the Society for African Culture.

He was interested in

this organization since their head office was located in

Lagos, Nigeria.

Roberts submitted written notice of his withdrawal from

the partnership of Itkin, Roberts & Greenbaum, effective

1 June 1963.

Roberts received a grant from the J. Frederick Brown

Institute of Public Administration to study the legal

profession and judicial system in West Africa. He traveled

with the following itinerary: Paris - one week; Dakar - two

weeks; Conakry - one week; Freetown - four weeks; Monrovia -

one week; Abidjan - two weeks; Accra - two weeks; Lome -

two weeks; Cotonou - one week; Lagos - four weeks; Upper

Volta and Ouagadougou.

Roberts was in Bamako, Mali, spent two weeks at Dakar,

went to Paris for ten days, went skiing in France for three

weeks, spent one week in London, and returned to New York

in April 1964. He wrote a book entitled "Judicial Organi-

zations and Institutions of Contemporary West Africa" on

the ten countries visited, and it was his opinion that Ghana

was pretty far out because they had already nationalized

the legal profession. Two of Roberts! contacts who are

co-chairmen of the Africa Law Association are D. N. Allot,

who is a member of the African Law Department, London

School of Oriental and African Studies, and Michelle Alliot,

head of the Department of African and Malagasian Law,

University of Paris, and now Minister of Education.

Spring 1964 Roberts saw Itkin, met his new wife, Jane, and visited

them in their Greenwich Village apartment where the two

boys (the children of Jane's first marriage) lived with

them.

Roberts discussed the money that was owed to

him from the law firm, and Itkin explained that he was

prevented from making the payments because of the.

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demands of his first wife, the cost of the divorce, etc.

Itkin mentioned that he was attorney for the Haitian

Government in Exile, that the leader was living in New

York, and that Itkin had made several trips to the

Caribbean on behalf of this client. (NOTE: Roberts

claims to have reported this to the Agency.) Roberts

commented that in his opinion Itkin would not be a good

observer since he was egocentric and would only look

upon things in the light of how they would affect Itkin.

Roberts felt that Itkin talked entirely too much and

Roberts had virtually no contact with any of Itkin's

friends.

Dec 1964 - Roberts worked on the legal staff, International Division,

Mar 1965

Radio Corporation of America, working on African problems.

This was a cover assignment arranged for him by CCS.

When he departed for Africa, he had a stand-by retainer

with RCA to represent them in Dakar. In addition, he had

retainers from Pan Am and Pepsi Cola:

May 1965

Itkin gave Roberts a check for $2,500 and said that $1,250

was to be applied to the firm's debt to Roberts. Itkin asked

Roberts to hold $1,250 for him to be payable to Itkin's wife

when needed. Itkin explained this by saying that his first

wife was attempting to get hold of all of Itkin's money.

June 1965

Roberts wrote to Itkin about sending the desk and swivel

chair to him indicating this was the only furniture that

could be used in Dakar since IBM typewriters were not

appropriate. It was at this time that Roberts sent a. $500

check to London to Mrs. Itkin. This came from the $1,250

Roberts was holding for Itkin. The address was

51 London

Road, Daventry, England.

19 July 1965 Itkin wrote back and said the desk and chair had been sent

to the forwarding agent.

8 Oct 1965

Desk and chair not delivered. Roberts again asked Itkin;

no reply.

19 Nov 1965 Roberts wrote Itkin about the desk and chair which letter

crossed in the mail with one written by Itkin to Roberts

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asking that $100 be sent to Adah Itkin at Daventry,

England.

Roberts sent the $100 check to England.

27 Dec 1965 Roberts

again wrote about the desk.

Jan 1966

Roberts, in Dakar, received a telephone call from Itkin

in New York in which the transmission was very bad and

Roberts could not fully understand the conversation.

10 Jan 1966 Itkin wrote recounting the conversation which in fact

described some of the activities of Conestoga Investments,

Limited.

1 Feb 1966

Itkin wrote Roberts a letter stating that Roberts was to be

retained by Conestoga, Ltd., as their African counsel.

Roberts made no monetary contribution to Conestoga.

Mar 1966

Roberts went to Austria for a ski vacation and subsequent

to his departure his office received a letter indicating that

people interested in Conestoga would be visiting Dakar.

The secretary wrote back and stated that Roberts was not

there and could be reached in

Austria.

Roberts received

word in Austria to meet Itkin at the Beau Rivage (phonetic)

Hotel in Geneva on 15 March 1966.

15 Mar 66

Roberts met the following people to discuss Conestoga

Investments, Ltd: Mr. and Mrs. Itkin, Jim Marcus, and

Mr. and Mrs. Littman.

The meetings lasted for three

days in which a great deal of background material was

discussed about the potential of combining English and

American financiers to invest in underdeveloped countries.

There were a great many investment opportunities examined.

One of the specific proposals was the use of trunk line

helicopter service in association with Olympic Airways.

It should be noted that the names of Ambassador John

Lodge (Marcus's father-in-law) and Henry Cabot Lodge

were frequently mentioned as being interested in the

program.

Roberts felt that he needed cover work and

therefore this appeared like a legitimate enterprise for

him. (NOTE: Itkin told Roberts while in Geneva that the

furniture had not been shipped because the storage company

refused to send it to the forwarding agents until the storage

bills were paid by Itkin.

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22 Mar

1966

Nov 1966

3 Jan 1967

6 Apr 1967

Nov 1967

Roberts met his LPGLOBE case officer "Gary" in Rome

on Roberts' return trip to Dakar. Roberts gave a

rundown on Conestoga, Ltd., to

the case officer in the

general context of cover business. • Roberts recalls that

upon his return to Dakar there was

an exchange of letters

with Itkin asking for information on mineral deposits

located in Mauritania and Ghana.

Roberts was in New York City and contacted Marcus and

Itkin. He attended a dinner at the Marcus apartment

along with Itkin, Mr. and Mrs. Marcus and Marcus's

father. During this same trip to New York Roberts

accompanied Itkin to a dinner party given by Mario Brod.

Roberts had earlier met Brod through Itkin, and Brod

introduced Roberts to a Mr. Thompson who was in a

senior position with Pfizer Drug Company.

Roberts received a letter from Howard English of the New

York office of the Internal Revenue Service asking for

information about Itkin's taxes for the years 1963, 1964

and 1965.

Roberts replied to IRS indicating that he had no financial

transactions with Itkin since withdrawing from the law firm

in June 1963, except to receive a small payment against a

sizeable debt from that law firm.

Roberts was again in New York City and had lunch with

Itkin and Mario Brod. Brod stated that he was working on

a trust agreement attempting to bail Itkin out of his financial

problems.

Roberts was interviewed by a New York Times

correspondent in a telephone call from Paris to Dakar about

his association with Itkin after Itkin had been indicted.

A more detailed review of Roberts' finances was made, and

he then explained that while he was a member of the firm of Itkin,

Roberts & Greenbaum he never received a salary, but in fact only

had a drawing account. All fees were plowed back into the firm

which somehow allowed them, on the advice of their accountants,

to pay taxes on capital gains rather than on income at quite a

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saving to each of the partners. Roberts was asked to explain

what bank accounts he maintained. He indicated that he had a

personal banking account with Chase Manhattan Bank in New

York City. He had professional accounts in Dakar and New

York City, and an anonymous account at the Bank Popular Swiss

in Geneva, Switzerland.

This latter account was established at

the end of 1967 on the advice of his girl friend in Dakar who

maintained her own business account in this Swiss bank. Roberts

felt that the Swiss bank account afforded him additional cover to

explain why larger sums of money were not available in Dakar.

Roberts stated that he had not been in touch with Itkin since

opening his Swiss bank account.

Roberts does not feel that Itkin knows of Roberts' CIA

employment from anything Roberts has ever said to Itkin.

Roberts did not know of Mario Brod's affiliation with CIA.

OGC: JKGreaney:bt(11 Mar 69)

Distribution:

Orig. - OGC

1 - D/Security

1 - CCS/LPGLOBE

1 - C/CI/R&A

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