Originator: SSCSGO
From: WANNELL, W. RAYMOND
Document date: 5/11/76
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

157-10014-10010

Date:

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08/06/95

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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER

: 157-10014-10010

RECORDS SERIES

HEARINGS

AGENCY FILE NUMBER

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DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : SSCSGO

FROM

TO

: WANNELL, W. RAYMOND

TITLE :

DATE : 05/11/76

PAGES

85

SUBJECTS

: WANNELL, W. RAYMOND

CIA

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE

FBI

WC

COUNTERINTELLIGENCE

DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS

: 1A, 1B

CURRENT STATUS

RELEASED WITH DELETIONS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW

: 09/25/98

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS : Box

' 1

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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14'61

• Phua

Driat

to: C

Uhr anitro Statra Bri

Report of Proceedinge Me 1h7

Hearing held before

Senate Select Cömmittee to Study Governmental

Operations With Respect to Intelligence Actlvities

CIA NAS NO EJECTION TO

DECLAUSIFICATION AND/OR

RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT

88|98

Tuesday, May 11, 1976

Washingron, D. C

(Stenotypa Tape and Wagte turned over

to the Committee for destruccion)

WARD & PAUL

3017 WILSON BOULEVARD

ARLINGTON, VA 22201

(703) 841-0800

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ORIGIRALE

ATION

subject

to Criminal Sanct Lond

R3028

Uhr Suitro Statre Briate

Report of Proceedinge

2378071

Hearing held before

Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental

Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activitles

FBI INFO

CLASSIFIED BY: 5668 SLO/GaL

REASON:

1.5

DECLASSIFY ON: X 0X6/

JFIC):

9/23/97

Tuesday, May 11, 1976

lists information

Washingron, D. C

usEs

REVIEWED BY REJFK VASK FoRuetype lape

and Waste turned over

the Committee for destruction

ON 9/18/57 da

REVIEWED BY FBJFK TASK

I RELEASE IN FULL

Ca!

RELEASE IN PART

TOTAL DENIAL

WARD & PAUL

3019 WILSON BOULEYARD

ARLINGTON, VA 22201

(703) 841-0800

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ON

71/98 claf

RELEASE IN FULL

O AELEASE IN PART

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TOLS CRET

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SON TENTS

TESTIMONY OF:

W. Raymond Wannall

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STAFF INTERVIEW

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Tuesday, May 11, 1976

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United States Senate,

Select Committee to Study Governmental

Operations with Respect to

Intelligence Activities

Washington, D. C

The Conmittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 o'clock

aim. in Room 608, The Carroll Arms

Hotel,

Staff: Paul Wallach, Michael lipstein and Jim Johnston,

Professional Staff Members.

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PROCERDINGS

TESTIMONY OF W. RAYMOND WANNALL

Mr. Wallach. Would the witness please state his full

name and address for the record?

MI. Wannall.h. W. Raymond Wannall, W-a-n-n-a-1-1, 305

Southwest Drive, Silver Spring, Maryland.

MI. Wallach. Mi. Wannall, you have testified before the

Conmittee before.

Mr. Wannall.

Yes, I have.

Mx. Wallach.

Under

oath?

Mr. Wannall. Yes.

Mr. Wallach. In any event, as I explained to you

earlier this morning, the Senator will not be able to be here

because of a conflict in his schedule, and I take

it from what

you have said you have no objection to proceeding in their

absence, although you do have the right to have them

present.

Mr. Wannall. I have no objections to proceeding.

MI. Wallach. Additionally, you are presently, recently

retired from the Bureau, and you do understand that you do

have the right to come before

us with counsel.

Mr. Wannall. Yes, I understand that.

Mr. Wallach. And it at any time you want to adjourn

tnese proceedings until you cay secure counsel, we will

do that at your convenience..

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Mr. Wannall. Thank you:

Mr. Wallach. Before we went on the record, you discussed

with us or traced very briefly your positions with the Bureau

since 1968.

Mr. Wannall. 1958.

Mr. Wallach. 1958, I'm aorry. In 1958 you were the

number one man in the Nationalities Intelligence Section, is

that right?

Mr. Wannall. That's right.

Mr. Wallach. Could you just very succinctly describe

what the function of that section is?

MI. Wannall: Well, the Nationalities Intelligence

Section was

in the Counterintelligence Branch of the Division

and handled matters relating to countries other than the

Soviet Union, the Soviet Bloc, Communist China.

The matters

were under various statutes, including espionage statutes,

Foreign Agents Negistration Act, and related statutes.

Mr. Wallach. If someone, say, if you suspected a

Chinese Communist agent or had attempted to or had in fact

killed

someone in this country, would that be within your

jurisdiction to investigate?

Mr. Wannall. A Chinese Communist agent?

Mr. Wallach. Someone you believed to be -- I am being

very theoretical, I ayree. I have no specific case in mind.

MI: Wannall. Us course, China was not always under thi

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area of my responsibility

Mr. Wallach, Taking a country that was, say, Brazil,

for example, would you investigate that type of thing for the

Criminal Division?

Mr. Wannall. If it were a Federal violation or a potential

Federal violation, that would have been handled under the

Criminal Division.

Mr. Wallach. So even though the Agent might have been of

was believed to be involved in a foreign intelligence service,

the Criminal Division -

Mr. Wannall.. The actual assassination would be handled

by the Criminal Division, yes.

We would not disregard the

agent. We would continue to

follow and

report on his-activiti

but any investigation of the assassination as

such would have

been a criminal violation and under the pivision 6; the Genera:

Criminal Division.

Mr. Wallach. In March of 1962 you replaced sterling

Donahoe as

Section Chief of Nationalities Intelligence

Section, is that right?

Mr. Wannall. That is correct.

Mr. Wallach. And

you continued in that position at leusi

up until the time of -- through May of 1965.

Mr. Wannall. Yes.

Mr. Wallach. A couple of questions I would like to asi.

you about. At that time I realize that it may have been tou

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POТM

on either in a meeting that we had over in your office at

the Bureau or in possible other testimony, but I would like

to put them together here for the record today.

At any time while you were - and again I'm talking from

the period 1958 through May 1965 -- at any time during this

period were you aware of the fact that the CIA was using the

Mafia or underworld figures in attempts to kill Fidel Castro?

Mr. Wannall. You are going back & long time, but to the

best of my recollection I didn't become

aware of that until

after that period, and I think my knowledge was acquired as

a result of reviewing information in our files for the purpose

of reporting material to the Attorney General. A memorandun

was

prepared which I think you possibly have access to, and the

date of that memo would probably

coincide pretty much with

my knowledge.

Mr. Wallach. I think the memo you speak about is a March

6.

1967 memorandum which we basically discussed at your office

the day I was there.

Mr. Wannall. That's right.

Mr. Wallach. There were two. One was an internal

memorandum, the other was from the Director to the Attorney

General.

I would like to get to that a little bit later and get

your knowledye as to what precipitated that and what review

was actually conducted, but I will get to that matter.

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Mr. Wannall: All right.

Mr. Wallach. Do you know Vince Nasca?

MI. Wannall. Yes.

I have known him since about 1951 when

reported to the Division.

Mr. Wallach, What essentially was Mr. Nasca's area of

expertise within the Nationalities Intelligence Section?

MI. Wannall. Well, he had numerous countries prior to

the Fidel Castro takeover of Cuba, Including matters relating

to Cuba.

After that, I think he probably devoted quite a

bit of his time principally to the Cuban

situation, more

especially the anti-Castro situation in the United States.

Mr. Wallach. One of the documants, as I mentioned to you

before, that we still have not gotten from the FBI, although ti

request has been long outstanding,

is

memorandum dated

July 29, 1964, from the SAC in Miami

to the Director,

and

focusing on the period 1964, do you recall becoming aware

that

the CIA was attempting to use a highly placed Cuban to

assassi-

nate Fidel Castro, or had been using, prior to 1964, a highiy

placed Cuban to eliminate Fidel Castro whose code name

was

AMLASH.

Mr. Wannall. AMLASH?

Mr. Wallach. MILASH.

Mr. Wannall. That code name does not strike a note wit

me, and neither does the information that you are calling ti

my attention. I don't recall any information of that nature

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coming to my attention.

That was in 1964 you say?

Mr. Wallach. Right.

I will read to you - we had access to the memorandum

altbough we have not had delivered, a portion of it. It says -

have you ever heard the name Tepedino? Does that name

ring any belt?

Mr. Wannall. I can't say that it does.

MI. Wallach.

I may state to you, and it really doesn't

need to be stated, that the information we are discussing

here is classified, and I know from your experience, you will

treat it as such. But I just wanted to reiterate

that.

Mr. Wannall. I will respect that.

MI. Wallach. The quote - and this was taken down by

one of the people on our staff, so I can't say it is 100

percent accurate: "He (Tepedino) cautioned the informant

to say nothing concerning

their conversation which would

permit the information to reach CIA of any other source

through which it might become public inasmuch as to do so

might result in the death of persons

in cuba as well as himsci:

repedino thereby confided that he had been acting

as contact

man between CIA and AMLASH.. AMLASH has been contantly com-

plaining to him that CIA refused to furnish him with certain

necessary

equipment

with which he could take effective action

in Cuba."

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And then it goes on to talk about they had furnished

effective equipment at certain points in time.

Mr. Wannall. Irfective?

: Mr. Wallach. Effective eguipment for the purpose of

eliminating Fidel Castro, and it says there is now discussion

under way with the CIA on attempts to kill Fidel Castro.

Do you recall any of that coming to your attention?

Mr. Wannall. It is possible it did, but I don't have any

recollection of it. If it was in a memorandum

from our Miami

office to headquarters -- and I think that's what you said it

was -- that would not necessarily come across my desk. It is

quite possible the supervisor, however, could have called it

to my attention. I can only say I cannot recall it and the

name Tepedino does not strike a note with me at all.

Mr. Wallach. Was there any special - again the period

1958 through

1965 -- was there any

special operations being

run out of the Miami field office vis-a-vis Cuba?

Mr. Wannall. By the FBI?

MI. Wallach. Right.

Mr. Wannall. No, in the way of special operations I

think we'd have to define the term. Of course, we had a

very intensive informant development program down there among

the anti-castro Cubans, and during the period when Castro

beyain releusing individuals and permitting them to come

the United states, we had

a program down there for the purpos

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trying to identity Castro agents coning in both by Ship and by

plane.

Now, I don't recall the dates of that right now. It could

have been within that time period.

Mr. Wallach. Did the Bureau to your knowledge at that

time have, without identifying them, any sources inside Cuba?

Mr. Wannall. Inside Cuba?

Mr. Wallach. Yes.

MI. Wannall: Not to my recollection. There were

sources

that I -- I shouldn't use the word "sources" . there were

individuals who on occasion made forays into Cuba and we

learned about information and conditions inside Cuba as a

result of people inside this country, but not agents inside

Cuba, no.

Mr. Wallach. Have you ever heard the name Rolando

Cubela?

Mr. Wannall. That name

strikes

a note with me somewhere,

yes. Orlando Cubela?

MI. Wallach. Rolando Cubela.

Mr. Wannall. I recognize the name. In what context I

can't recall.

Mr. Wallach, Let's yo off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Wallach. Let the record reflect that I just noted su

Mr. Wannall off the record certain facts about Mr. Cubela.

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In any event, do you recall

at any time whether he was

a source?

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall that he was or was not.

I can't even remember in what context I recall the name Cubela,

but it does hit me as someone that I had heard about before.

Mr. Wallach. Did you know General Laisdale?

MI. Wannall. No, I never met the gentleman.

Where was he?

Mr. Wallach. General Lansdale was - have you ever heard

about a person MONGOOSE of the operations the U.S. was running

against Cuba in '62 and '63?

Mr. Wannall. I have read the term MONGOOSE in the press

recently, I have heard it in that context, but I don't recall

hearing about it in connection with my official duties.

Mr. Wallach. Did you at any time attend meetings at the

Pentagon at which Cuban affairs were discussed?

Mr. Wannall. During that particular period?

Mr. Wallach. Yes, '58 through

'G5.

Mr. Wannall: No, I did not. I don't recall altending lui

nicetings at the Pentagon on Cuban affairs. In fact, I don'e

recall any meetings at the Pentagon during that period at all.

MI. Wallach. There was a meeting, we've had testimony,

that Mr. Donahoe and Mi. Cotter went out to in, I believe

it

was in the spring uf '62.

Do you have any recollection of them going out

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to a meeting?

Mr. Wannall. No specific recollection, but I think Cotter

at the time was probably head of the unit which handled

Castro affairs, and Donahoe - in the spring of '62, Donahoe .

of course up untilaabout the first of March of '62 was

chief of the Nationalities Intelligence Section. So I wouldn't

be surprised if they had gone. I can't say I can recall

specifically a meeting that they attended, or their having

gone to a meeting

at the Pentagon.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall any meeting - and I have

identified General Lansdale as a person who we have been

told was close

to Bobby Kennedy at that time and who was

heavily involved in all types of Cuban operations, operations

targeted against Cuba - ever coming to a meeting with Mr.

Belmont -- I'm asking you in an attempt to refresh your

recollection.

Mr. Wannall.

Well, as I say, I don't know Lansdale.

Is that his name?

Mr. Wallach. Right.

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall a General Lansdale. I have,

now

that you have refreshed my recollection, some vague recol-

lection of a meeting with belmont by some General. It may havi:

been Lanidale. I don't know the name -- whore there was a

discussion of cuban matters.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall anyone bringing up the subjer

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of assassinating Castro?

Mr. Wannall. I think the subject was taken up, and I

probably learned that from Donahoe. He may have been at the

meeting.

Mr. Wallach. Do you remember how Mr. Donahoe told you

that it was taken up? Did he say it was taken up jokingly

by Belmont, does that

ring a bell? Was it brought up by

Lansdale?

Mr. Wannall. I would be teaching to try to say in what

context. I have a recollection of a conversation with Donahoe

where he said --now, let's

see - I think the way that bonahor

said it was someone brought it up, some General, and my

impression was that belmont was about to throw him out of the

office. So I would

assume that it would have been the General

that brought.up the

conversation.

MI. Wallach.

Brought up assassinating Castro with the

use of Mafia figures?

• Mr. Wannall.

No, not with the use uf Mafia figures, I

can't recall that, just the assassination of Castro.

Mr: Epstein. Do you recall reading a memo or a documen:

relating to that meeting?

Mr. Wannall. I am more

inclined to think that I learne

this from word of mouth from Donahoe.

It is possible if the

document was written -- I think if I read such a

document th

had Mafia in it, I believe I would remember that.

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Mr. Epstein.

Well, apart from the Mafia issue, do you

remember reading any document reflecting a meeting between

Belmont

and Lansdale in which the assassination of Castro was

raised?

Mr. Wannall. I cannot say, Mr. Epstein. I recall reading

the memo.. I know I have this knowledge.. I think I acquired

it orally. It is possible I read

a memo. I just cannot say

positively yes or no on that.

Mr. Epstein. The knowledge that you are recollecting now

is knowledge that came to you that you had in and around the

time of the meeting as opposed to within the last few weeks or

months.

Mr. Wannall. Yes. It was about the time of the meetiny

which I recollect as having been in Belmont's office as opposeu

to the Pentagon.

Mr. Epstein. How do you recall it as having come about?

What was the purpose, as you understood, of the

issue

coming up in Pelmont's office? Why was Lansdale even mentionin;

that to Belmont?

Mr. Wannall. Well, I don't know that it was even Landler.

I can't remember at all. A General, an Army General I think

was the way it was told to me, or perhaps the name

was

mentioned. I don't know. It could be the name was given

to me and I don't

remember the nane.

But In the context,

just the matter of a discussion of the Cuban situation, ani

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as I can recollect It/ the General himself probably brought up

the matter of attempted assassination of Castro, and Belmont's

reaction against it.

Mr. Epstein. Was it your understanding that it was an

assassination attempt that had taken place or a proposai?

Mr. Wannall. A proposal, not any assassination attempt

that had taken place.

Mr. Epstein. Was it your assessment, then, that the Generdl

was seeking Belmont's reaction to the idea, or what?

Mr. Wannall. I don't know, just the subject had come up,

but for what purpose I can't recall if that was explained to

me, or if it was, I don't remember.

He are going back a lot of years.

Mr. Epstein.

I understand.

Do you recall any discussion between yourself and

Donahoe on the subject of whether anyone outside the Bureau

ought to be notified that someone in the military was proposiny

such an idea?

Mr. Wannall. I can't recall any such discussion.

MI. Epstein. Do you recall whether anyone was in fact i

fied by the Bureau?

Ms. Wannall. I don't know. I was

not privy to the

conversation.

Mr. Wallach. You don't recall being in Belmont's offic

during this, do you?

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Mr: Wannall. ohiff, definitely do noth

WI think I would

have remembered if I had been.

Mr. Epstein. Can you relate it. in point of time to any

events, so we can get the benefit of the date, of month or

year when it might have occurred, even to the Bay of Pigs or

the cuban missile crisis?;

Mr. Wannall. I wish I could be helpful to you on that, buc

I just can't. It was a conversation, as I remember -

MI. Wallach. Do you recall -- I'm sorry.

Mr. Wannall. It was a conversation, I know. It was

certainly during that time period we were having our difficulli;

with Castro, but whether it was during the Bay of pigs, which

I think was May of '61, the Cuban missile crisis, which was

October '62, I would be stretching. I don't think I can really

tie it down as to the time.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall if it was before or after you

replaced Donahoe?

MI. Wannall. My recollection is that it was before.

That would help because I think Donahoe was the section chiei

at the time.

Mr. Wallach. I might say I think it was Donahoe's

recollection that it was soon after of after you replaced hill,

and that he asked - this night refresh your recollection

further, if you had any discussions with him - he asked

Richard Cotter to also come to the meeting with him,: and he 'i

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Mr. Cotter went to Mr. Belmont'a offico and met with a General,

General Lansdale:

Now, do you remember having had any discussions with Mr.

Cotter about this subject?

Mr. Wannall.: No. I am pretty sure that my knowledge

came from Donahoe. And it is quite possible it was during

that transitional stage, because Donahoe went over - he was

working as an assistant to Belmont when he left the section

Chief's position, and there were some things. he had to eave

undone. I was just acting for him, and suddenly he was

appointed, and the same day I was appointed Section Chief. Anu

so we did have discussions between

then and about the middle

of April for, among other things, the preparation of performance

ratings, for example, of the men who were in the Division.

had several discussions with him

before preparing the ratings

that year.

But I said, as I did before, my

recollection was

it was while Donahoe was still section chief, but it could

possibly have been

in that period immediately following March

which is the date

of my

appointinent as Section Chief.

Mr. Wallach. Let me ask you this.'

Is your recollection

that Donahoe discussed

a meeting with you in Belmont's office,

or he discussed plans or suggestions that were being made, lic

had

attended

at the Pentagon?

Mr. Wannall. My recollection is it was

a mecting in

Belmont's office.

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Mr. Wallach:

Let mo, show you a mémorandum dated May 10,

1962, prepared'hy Mr. Hoover." It was disseminated to apparent-

ly disseminated to six persons within the Bureau, and it discusses

a variety.of subject matters. Iwouldilike.you.to./read.over

just the last page and a half of the memorandum, the last

paragraph on page 6, and the remainder of page 7, and tell me

If the facts described in there ring any bell or were dincussed

with you.

Mr. Wannald.

Do you mind if I make a note of the memo

and what it is?

Mr. Wallach.

No, surely.

I think it is a May 10, '62 memo.

Mr. Wannall. Well, I was going to put down to whom it

was addressed.

Now, you would like for me to read -

Mr. Wallach. The last paragraph on that page, and

the

next page.

(l'he Witness reads the docunent.)

Mr. Wallach. I realize it is not the cleanest of

coyies.

Were you able to get through it?

Mr. Wannall. I think I have the sense of it.

Mr. Wallach. Was any of this information ever called

to your

attention back

in 1962 or '63?

Mr. Wannall. No. I have seen that memo in recent months,

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but not at the time it was written.

Mr. Wallach. As a matter of fact, I think this is one

ot the memos we discussed that you said, I believe, that I

think you said you saw in 1967 in your review.

MI. Wannall. I think it wag the basis of the memorandum

I put together; the memorandum to the AG that was put together

in my section back in '67.

MI. Wallach. Do you know of any reason why this informa-

tion would not have been brought to your attention as

a person,

I guess you would say, responsible for Bureau policy vis-a-

vis Cuba?

Mr. Wannall, Well, I can't say except that it was proball:

very high level, closely held information, handled onaa

need to know basis, and a decision must have been made that I

did not need to know. In May of '62, Donahoe, who was fully

cognizant of the activities with respect to Cuba, was working

directly in Mr. Belnont's front office from which you said

belore, I was passed over to go to the unit chief who would

have to be involved in the thing. I can only say that

that

probably was the reason for its not having been.

Mr. Wallach. I might say that Mr. Donahoe has testified

he did not know at this time.

Were you ever in contact directly with anyone out at

CIA about Cuban matters at any time, '61, '62, or '63?

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall being in contact. I was in

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very close contact with our liaison man who frequently took up

Cuban matters with CIA. I don't recall having had any direct

contact with any other officers during that perlod, nor on

Cuban matters at any time that I cán remember.

Mr. Wallach. " Were you aware that the CIA had a station

that they were operating down in Florida?

Mr. Wannall. Yes, I was very much aware of that.

Mr. Wallach. Was there a liaison set up betweenthe FBI

and that station?

Mr. Wannall. Yes.

It was rather shaky to start with,

but the Attorney General sent about 16 of us down to Miami

in about March of 1963, to the best of my recollection, and

while!I was there, I learned that the liaison between our

office and the CIA operational office there was not the best.

Mr. Wallach. Why were you sent down?

Why were the 16

men sent down?

Mr. Wannall. It was at the time that some anti-Castro

Cubans took

a vessele

a mother vessel with some smaller

vessels aboard, to cuba, and they put a detonation charge in the

bow of a smaller vessel, anu set it off so it would go into

Havana Harbor, and this small ship with the detonation charye

in the nose struck

Soviet vessel, and it almost brought aboul

an international incident, and the Attorney General had

about 16 officials from Washington go to Miami on a Friday

evening - I think we arrived about midnight -- and the next

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morning we had a conference there for the purpose of discus-

sing what action might be taken to restrain the anti-Castro

Cubans from engaging in such type activities.

Mr. Wallach. Were they officials other than FBI personnel?

Mr. Wannall® Yes.

Mr.. Wallach. Can you recall who was there? I realize

you probably won't recall everyone.

• Mr. Wannall. Well, I remember from

the Department,

Walter Yeagley was there because I roomed with him that night.

I think from CIA the gentleman was Desmond Fitzgerald, if I

recall correctly. There were representatives also whose names

I don't recall from INS, a couple of the military agencies,

I think probably the Army, perhaps Air Force.

It was a group

made up of representatives of various Federal agencies, and

I was the only representative from

the FBI.

Mr. Wallach. Was the Attorney General there?

Mr. Wannall. No, he did not go down. General Carroll

of the Air force arranged for the transportation down and

back.

Nr. Wallach. Did you meet with the Attorney General ver

you went down?

Mr. Wannall. Yes.

Mr. Wallach, Did you receive instructions from the Attit.

General?

• Mr. Wannall. Yes.

He had representatives of these

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various agencies In, more than the 16 who went Mandisaid he

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wanted a group to go down, one representing each of the

organizations, at least one, and that the President was quite

concerned over the problem that had been generated by this

bombing of a Soviet vessel in Havana Harbor, and he wanted the

group to go down on the site and try to make some decisions

as to what action could

be taken for the perpose of eliminating

this type of activity on the part of the anti-Castro Cubans.

Mr. Wallach. At that meeting with the

Attorney General,

do you recall who else besides the persons you mentioned

were present? For example, was Mr. Helms there?

Mr. Wannall. I can't say for sure that llelms was there:

I don't think I knew him it the time. I would not have

recognize him. There must have been 40 people at the meeting.

It was a very large meeting.

Mr. Wallach. Did you know Desmond Fitzgerald before you

met him in Florida?

MI. Wannall. No, I met him on the plane.

MI. Wallach. How was he identified, or what was your

understanding as to the area he was involved in with CIA?

MI. Wannall. Well, CIA did have a post in the Miami

area which, as I understand it, was for the purpose of carryiny

out intelligence gathering activities directed against

Cuba.

Mr. Wallach.

Ins other words, you are saying that they

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used that post to gather intelligence Information from inside

Cuba?

Mr. Wannall.

From what I was told by our liaison man -

and I had no discussions directly with CIA on this, was that

the CIA station in Miami operated just the same as any CIA

station abroad, but it was not able to be located in Cuba, and

therefore it was

located in the Miami area.

Mr. Wallach. Was it your understanding that they had the

capability to gather intelligence information from inside

Cuba, that they had sources, aggets, etc:, inside Cuba?

MI. Wannall: Well, I wouldn't say my understanding. I

feel, from

some of the information that came from CIA, it must

have originated inside Cuba, so I would assume they did have

sources there.

Mr. Wallach. And that was your understanding in '62 ani

1963.

Mr. Wannall. I would say yes.

Mr. Wallach. What

was

the outcome of the meeting? Can

you tell us what transpired at the meetiny?

Mr. Kannall.. I think the principal thing that wis

accomplished was that the anti-castro Cubans that time were i

an alien status in this country, and they were

issued

notiii-

cations that if they should leave the United States for the

purpose of enyaying in forays of this type, they would bo

excluded

from re-entering.

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Mr. Wallach, was it your understanding that any of the

government agencies, governmental agencios had backed this

Cuban group, be it the military of the CIA?

Mr. Wannall. No. I would say it was my understanding that

the Government was very upset over the activities of this group.

(Pause)

Ms. Wallach. At any time that you were at the Bureau,

did you have any knowledge of the fact that the military was

running operations

targeted at Cuba aside from the Bay of

Pigs?

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Mr. Wannall. The military?

Mr. Wallach. Yes.

Mr. Wannall. I can't recallaany

such knowledge coming to

Iny attention.

Mr. Epstein.

Did the bureau ever run any counterintellige

operations directed

at Cuba, counterintelligence, in the early

' 60s?

MI: Wannall. Well, your term counterintelligence, Mr.

Epstein.

Mr. Epstein.

Defensive action.

Mr. Wannall.

n the way of trying to

develop defectors.

devoseptis double agencie

against the Cuban U.N. mission,

preventing the sabotage

some department stores. in New

York in November 1962, yes. We engaged in counterintelligene:

operations of the same type that we would engage in with splu)

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56

the period in 1963, without getting into specific identities.

Did the Bureau have sources within the Cuban congulate

In Mexico City in '62 or '63, do you recall?

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall whether we did or not, not

to my knowledge.

Mr.. Wallach. Do you recall the name Silva Duran?:

Mr. Wannall. Yes, I have heard that name.

Mr. Wallach. She was the person in the Cuban congulate

I believe who met with Oswald.

I'm asking you if you have a recollection as to whether

or not she was

ever a Bureau source or asset?

Mr. Wannall.' I don't have any recollection that she was

a source or an asset. I wouldn't necessarily know the name,

because from reviewing our material you know that we mention

our sources normally by serial number and the names are kept

in one place.

So I don't connect Silva. Duran

as having been

an FBI source.

Mr. Wallach. Before, when

we were talking about the

meeting that you had in March of 1963 down in Miami that

related to the anti-castro group incident, is there a reason

why Vince Nasca did not go to that meeting

since it was my

understanding that he was on top of the anti-Castro groups?

Mr. Wannall. Well, the decision was

not made by me or

in consultation with me. Iwas at lunch one day, and they

sent out about ten clerks to find me, and I was told to repor

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to Mr. Sullivan's office. And when I got back he told me to

be in the AG's office that afternoon. And from there it

snowballed.

Mr. Wallach. You mentioned also before that at that

meeting I think you said you became awars of a liaison relation,

ship between the field office in Miami and the CIA station in

Florida?

Mr. Wannall. Oh, ho. I was aware that we had liaison

with the office down there. I learned at that meeting that

it wasn't all it should be.. In fact, the FBI was criticized

very severely because the Miami office was

precluded from

disseminating reports directly to the CIA office down there.

All of it came through headquarters, as a result of which ther

was a time lag in information being exchanged.

Mr. Wallach. Criticized by whom?

Pr. Wannall. By representatives of the CIA down at

that meeting.

Mr. Wallach. Who else was there besides Mr. Fitzgerald,.

do you recall, from the CIA?

Mr. Wannall. Well, their local man was there. I don't

recall who he was. As was the SAC of our Miami office.

MI. Epstein. Who was he, do you recall?

Mr. Hannall. I think he was Wes Grapp.

MI. Epstein. Do you recall who the Cuban desk chief wi

in Miani, of the Bureau?

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respect to the sovlet Bood Interests:

Peru)

Mr. Epstein, (Ola some of that counterinteliigence involve

disruptive actions taken against cuban --Flu)

Mr. Wannall. Well, I think - this is a classified

interview?

Mr. Epstein.

Yes.

MI. Wannall. LE believe that one of the counterintelligence

programs was Cuban, was it not, so in that respect, yes. J4)

Mr. Wallach.

Let's go off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

M

Mr. Epstein. Did any of those operations ever involve

Bureau agents going into Cuba or Bureau sources or assets

going anto Cuba at the Bureau's request?

(80 4)

Mr. Wannally Weti, definitely no with respect to

Bureau ayents.

think there may have been Some. Bureau

assets who did in fact get, into cuba, not extensive?

I

Cuban Foreign Mnister

was a lony term thing where we had assets in this country wi

were

either related to him or friends of his family, ayainst

whom we made those etforts

4)

MI. Epstein. And that was for the purpose of developin:

intelligence as opposed to disruption.

Mi. Wannall. That's right.

Mr. Wallach. Just a couple of more questions dealing vi.

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Mr. Wannalli- It was probably Howard Albaugh, A-1-b-a-u-g-h.

He had the desk for many years.

Mr. Epstein. Is he still with the Bureau?

Mr. Wannall. No, he's retired.

Mr. Epstein. Was he at the meeting?

Mr. Wannall. Ican't recall that he was. I remember

Wes, the SAC that I remember, Wes Grapp was there.

Mr. Wallach. Does the name red Shackley ring a bell?

Mr. Wannall. Shackley, the name rings a bell because

I had seen letters with the name on it coming in from the Miami

office, but whether he was the one at the meeting, I can't

be sure.

Mr. Wallach. Was your understanding of the liaison

relationship with the CIA down in Miami that it was a one

way street in the sense that they wanted information from the

Bureau only, or was

it that they were providing information

obtained from inside Cuba to the Bureau?

Mr. Wannall.

Well, the information that they obtaine

came through headquarters, and I think that was

the reason

why at the outset the information going to CIA was sercened

through headquarters, but at that time there was a lot of

emphasis by the NItorney General to try tu yot the anci-cuss:.

situation under control. As a matter ol lace, the morniny

after we had the meetiny

in dions, it was headlines in tho

press down there

that

youp of high lovel officinle fron:

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Washington had been on:

the spot, and that may have been one

reason for the meeting, to show an interest and an effort to

do something that would eliminate the problem.

Mr. Epstein.

Were there any policy discussions relative

to the possibility that some of the anti-Castro people or

groups might have been running U.s. Government operations and

how they were to be dealt with, or how that was to be determine!

before any restraining actions were taken?

MI. Wannall. At that meeting?

Mr. Epstein. Correct.

Mr. Wannall. Or otherwise. I don't recall any discussions

There were certainly none at that meeting.

Mr. Epstein. Not at the Attorney General's meeting.

Mr. Wannall. No.

Mr. Epstein. Do you recall that issue ever arising

with the anti-Castro groups?

Mr. Kannall. As I have said, I don't recall any

discussions of this kind.

Mr. Epstein.

Not just at this meeting, but at any time.

Mr. Wannall. Not at any time.

Mr. Epstein. Were there occasions when there were cases

that the Bureau began running, where at some point the Burea!!

becane aware that it was indeed a CIA operation?

Mr. Wannall. I chink there were cases where we came ui

with an individual in whom we developed

an interest later, an:

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229

Mater learned that there was a CIA Interest.

That was usually

worked out by our liaison section.

Mr. Wallach. Do you have any knowledge, Mr. Wannall,

in the time period 1962 and 1963, as to whether or not -- the

first question is whether or not the FBI was running any sort

of what 1s called a COINTELPRO activly against the Fair

Play for Cuba Committee.

Mr. Wannall: Well, we had a COINTELPRO operation, and

we did target in on the Fair Play

for Cuva Committee.

It was

one of only about two organizations in the country that were

openly pro-Castro.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall the nature of that COINTELl'K

operation and the approximate date?

Mr. Wannall. Well, COINTELPRO operation, I wouldn't

say it was a COINTELPRO operation.

As I recall, we did do

a bag. job on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New

York, and

it may have been after they moved

out of their premises.

I am not sure of the facts, it seems to me that the idea

While

originated with somebody on the Hill. I can't recall who

it was.

No. Epstein. When was that?

Mr. Wannall. Well, it was within this timeframe, I would

SuY •

fir. Bostein. What idea are you talking

about?

Mr. Wannall. Of taking some action that would neutrali.

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the efforts of the rair play for Cuba Committee

Mr. Wallach. Well, insofar as we have no documents relatim

to the actual black bag job, we do have documents showing

that mailing lists and photographs and other documents were

obtained from Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which indicates

they were obtained in that manner. Additionally, I think

we do have documents which relates to some sending of letters

to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee to try to divide the two

groups.

Mr. Wannall. It is possible. I don't remember

those, but

it is quite possible.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall whether the Bureau had any

high level assets or informants within the Fair Play for,

Cuba Committee, and by thatll mean

very high level.

Mr. Wannall. I cannot recall any.

Mr. Wallach. What was your perception - this is

prior to the assassination of President. Kennedy -- if you coul!

categorize the Fair Play

for Cuba Committee, what type of god!'

was it?

Mr. Wannall.

Well, it was openly a pro-castio group. 1

think they were engaged in collection of funds to send down

Cuba for the purchase, reportedly, of farm equipment and thin

of that sort. They supported Castro openly. There wasn't a.!

question about their sympathies.

Mr. Wallach. Do you know if the CIA was conducting any

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nort of operations against the Fair Play for Cuba Committee,

either in the United States: or worldwide?

Mr. Wannall. I don't know. If I had found that they

were conducting against the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here,

I think we would have been in touch with them about it.

Mr. Wallach,. Let me get into one or two operational

things, and let's just use the period September-October 1963.

If the Bureau was conducting an investigation and it

turned out that they needed some information that the CIA

was likely to have by virtue of its overseas operations, how

would that information be requested, or would it be requested?

MI. Wannall. Oh, I think so.

We would

send

an indication

and ask for it.

Mr. Wallach. Through Papich?

Mr. Wannall. It would be a letter.. If it would be

sensitive, he would probably deliver it, we would mark it by

liaison so it would get in the right hands over there.

Mr. Wallach, Would you have authority.to

send the

communication yourself, or would you have to get approval for

any communications that went to CIA?

MI. Wannall. No, all conmunications went up the line as

I recall. There was a period when some name checks and

routine sort of things were initialled out at the

section chi.

level, but I would say that information of that nature would

go up through channels: That would be the normal procedure.

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Mr. Wallachs Let me show you an article dated September 9.

1963, which appeared in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, among

some other newspapers, and ask you just to take a look at it.

It 13 captioned Castro Blasts Raids on Cuba.

MI. Wannald. The Times-Picayune?

•(The Witness reads the document.)

MI. Wallach. And supplementing that, let me show you a

cablegram from Legat Mexico City signed by Clark Anderson

to the Bureau on 11/27/63. It is Cable No. 196, with specific

attention on the last paragraph on the first page, and which

continues on to the second

page. And I might note for the

redord that there Clark Anderson is essentially giving a

similar version of Castro's speech or interview that is

referred to in the Times-Picayune article.

(The Witness reads the document.)

Mr. Wallach. Looking at first of all the cablegram, can

you tell if -- the initials are not the clearest, but do you

have any reoollection of seeing this cablegram?

Mr. Wannall. My initials are not on it. I don't recall

having seen it.

Mr. Wallach. Can you tell from that if unyone in your

section saw it?

Ms. Wannall. Well, the five here would indicate someon:

in Division 5 did in fact see it.

Mr. Wallach. Which was Domestic Intelligence Division.

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Mr. Wannall, Right.

It could have been a section other: than the one

that I

headed at the time.

I will try to make out the name.

ME. Wallach, Well, don't speculate if you really can't --

Mr: Wannall. It would be speculation.

ME. Wallach. Who in the period September-October 1963 was

most familiar I will say with Cuba, Cuban activities, Cuban

counterintelligence activities and with all the aspects of

Cuba within the Bureau?

Mr. Wannall. Well, those two phases were on different

desks as I recall. Nasca would

have been

familiar with the

anti-Castro Cuban activities, and I would guess it was Ray

Mullens who would have handled the pro-Castro Cuban activities,

although I am not certain.

Cotter was probably the unit chief and would have been the

one through whom most of this material flowed, at least on its

way up the line, not the incoming material.

Mr. Wallach. Did you also have an extensive knowledge of

Cuban

activities?

Mr. Wannall. I had a pretty jood knowledge of it, yes,

as

section chief.

Mr. Wallach. At any time, referriny back to the New

Orleans fimes-Picayune article where Castro, among other. than:

states we are

prepared to fight and answer in kind. United

States

leaders should think that if they are aiding terrorist

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plans to eliminate Cuban leaders, they themselves will not

be safe. And I stress the words "eliminate Cuban leaders."

Were you aware at that time that the CIA was meeting

with a high level Cuban official and plotting an attempt to

assassinate Fidel Castro?

MI. Wannall. I have no recollection of being aware of that.

nor at any other time, to my knowledge.

Mr. Wallach. I take it that you also would not have been

aware that on November 22nd, 1963, that a poison pen was passed

to a high level Cuban official by the CIA.

Mr. Wannall. I read that in the paper recently, but I

was not aware of that at

the time.

Mr. Wallach. Did you have the type of expertise with

respect to Castro that would lead you one way or

the other

to be able to render an expert opinion as to whether ur not

his granting an interview by an iP reporter at a particular

location, the Brazilian embassy, had any particular significanco?

Mr. Wannall. I don't know that my expertise is very

extensive in that regard. However, I do recall his granting

interviews to a New York Times correspondent rather frequentl

after his ascension to power. I think the Times correspondent'

name had the name Matthews in it. I don't recall whether thi

was the name, the first name or the last name, but he did

grant interviews..

HI. Wallach. One reason I asked the question is because

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shortly before this

you wouldn't have knowledge of 1t.

article came out/-

Are 11

that/d all right,

What do you recall, may I ask this, what you recall

happening at the Bureau on the day of the assassination of

President Kennedy on November 22nd, 1963, besides everyone

42.04

being upset and etc.

What instructions. do you recall being

given that you overheard, what instructions were given to you,

what meetings were held, that type of thing, that day and the

day after?

Mr. Wannall. Was that on a Friday do you recall?

•Mr. Wallach. Yes.

I realize again -- and I will stress for the record -- we

are talking about obviously a time period some 13 years ago,

and I am only

asking for the best uf your recollection.

I am

not trying to pin you down as to any facts.

Mr. Wannall. Well, the reason I asked the day of the week

is I have a recollection, we were probably in that weekend

working on file reviews information. I was also on duty the

day of the funeral, which was probably

a Monday, because I

recall seeing the funeral procession pass the corner of the

building where I was working.

So we were involved in reviewing

material, probably name checks, but what names they were I

cannot recall. But a good portion of the manpower was hand!!"

that during the weekend

and the day after that.

Mi. Wallach.

Have you ever heard the name Carlos Lechaa!

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Mr. Wannall. It strikes a note with me outy? don't know

in what context right away.

MI. Wallach. Do you know whether he was a suspected DGI

in the Cuban consulate in New York or the Unitad Nationa?

Mr. Wannall. It's possible. I can't remember. The name

does mean something to me, but I have difficultyldredging up

the background.

Mr. Wallach. What do you recall in terms of meetings

and

strategy discussions as to how the investigation would go

forward?taking place, or were you

involved in any?

Mr. Wannall: Which investigation?

Mr. Wallach. • The investigation. of the assassination of

President Kennedy.

Mr. Wannall. No, the investigation of the assassination

was not in the Division and I wasn't privy to any of the

discussions.

Mr. Wallach. Were you at any tine tasked with any

requirements in that investigation or any people under you

tasked?

Mr. Wannall. I can't recall that we were, because even

the phases of it that spilled over into our Division

were hand

in another section.

MI. Wallach, Which section was that?

Mr. Wannall. That was the Espionage Section.

MI. Wallach. Was that Branigan's

section?

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* Me i Wannall.

Yes

MI. Wallach. : That had primarily: to do with the Soviets,

is that not the case?

Mr. Wannall. Well, thereewas an Oswald aspect in the

assassination. You'd have to say that there were interests

overlapping because Branigan did have the Oswald case, and he

handled the Soviet aspects of it, yes.

Mr. Wallach. I understand that, but in ME. Branigan's

section; in Mr. Branigan's shop, the persons there, their

area of expertise was the Soviets, is that. correct?

MI. Wannall. Right. We had in our section at that time

a case which had been opened about five or six months before,

perhaps more recently than that, on the Fair Play for Cuba

Committee which appeared to have been Oswald himeelf down in

New Orleans.

So that aspect of it was handled by one of the

supervisors.

Mr. Wallach. What I'm asking, really, Mr. Wannall, is

whether at any time during the assassination investigation your

unit or your section, the section that was most familiar with

Cuba

and Cuban matters within the FBI was ever tasked to conduc

certain aspects of the

investigation, or certain operations o

tasked to yo to certain informants during the course of the

investigation?

Mr. Wannall. I think we probably were.

I feel we probat:

were, but I cannot recall any specific guide when you mention

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Mr. Wallach. Do you recail anything else other than

pinning down details with respect to Oswald? I mean, do you

recall ever receiving instructions to conduct an investigation

to determine whether or nottthere was. Cuban Involvement in the

assassination of President Kennedy?

MI. Wannall. I think we probably did, but what it was

I can't recall. Let me see if I can give you a few thoughts

on it.

(Pause)

Mr. Wannall. Whilell can't say specifically, it is quite

possible we may have been tasked to contact Cuban informants

because there were indications

of a connection betweeb Oswald

and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

Mr. Wallach. Let me read you a portion of a cablegram

fIOm Mexico City dated 11/25/63, No. 182 and 183. It is from

Legat to the Director. It says "Ambassador here" -- and that'

Ambassador Mahan to Mexico -- "feels Soviets much too

sophisticated to participate in direction of assassination i

President by subject, but thinks Cubans stupid enough to havi

participated in such direction, even to extent uf hiring

subject. If this should

be the case, it would appear likely

that contract would have been made with subject in U.s. an

purpose of his trip to Mexico was to set up getaway

route.

Bureau may desire to give consideration to polling all Cubai:

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sources in b.s.

In ettore to confirm or rerute this thegry."

Now, beneath that is the notation "Not desirable.

Would

serve to promote Iumors." And that: notation was by Mr. Cotter.

Do you recall whether or not the Bureau ever - and I'm

not asking whether it was your bellef. do you recall whether

the Bureau ever went out and contacted its Cuban sources, either

in this respect or to see if there was Cuban involvement in the

assassination of Presiden t Kennedy?

Mr. Wahhall. I can't recall that they did. When I

answered your question before, I said I couldn't recall if it

was done.

It would be a normal atep. That is why I used that

as an example. I can't recall that:the sources were polled.

Ms. Wallach. Who, if that requirement had been levied,

who in your section would have handled? That would have had

to have been made through your section, would

it not?

Mr. Wannall. Yes, I think we would have been given that

assignment by the agent who would have been coordinating the

investigation of the

assassination. It would have come to thi

section and gone back to the Cuban unit, possibly Cotter or

Owens or Cotter. Most of our infornants were in the anti-castr

field, and Nasca would have been most knowledgeable about thar..

Mr. Wallach. Where

is ME: Mullens

' now?

Is he still at

the Bureau?

Mr. Wannall. No, he passed away two years ago.

Mr. Wallach. Insofar as the other gentlemen you mentioner,

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your testimony is that they were never akked and so farjaa:

your recollection is, there was never any polling of Cuban sourdes

Mr. Wannall. No, they would have the best knowledge of

it.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall ever discussing with anyone

whether or not a separate Investigation should be conducted

to determine whether or not there was Cuban involvement in the

assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Wannall. No, I don't recall any such discussions.

Mr. Wallach. Do you know why immediately after the

assassination of President Kennedy

persons like Al Belmont and

Bill Sullivan

never told you about the assassination plots that

CIA had been running against Castro?

Mr. Wannall. No, I con't know that.

MI. Wallach. Were you at any time aware of any queries

to the CIA for them to conduct an investigation to determine

whether or not the Cubans had

been involved

in the assassinativ

of President Kennedy?

MI. Wannall. Not that I can recall, and those probably

would have been handled over in the division handliny the

assassination. Anytime

you have a case of that importance,

it would take precedance over anything else.

Mr. Wallach. Well, the division that was actually handl!:

the assassination case

was Al

Rosen's division, the Criminal

Investigation Division.

They

did not, as I understand it, h.:

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expertise in security cases and counterintelligence matters, is

that correct?

Mr. Wannall. That is correct, but if they should make

aadecision that there should be a polling of sources of a

contact with CIA, they would have handled that themselves. They

would probably have consulted with the agents on the desk 1f

they had any guestions about it.

Mr. WAllach. Do you recall ever learning that anyone in

the Criminal Investigative Division had been told that the

United States had attempted to assassinate Fidel Castro?

Mr.. Wannall.

I don't know.

I don't think I had any knowledge of that myself at the

time.

Mr. Johnston. Mr. Wannall, let me show you a letter to

Mr. Rankin from Mr. Hoover, Mr. Rankin being General Counsel of

the Warren Commission -- and I don't see a date on our copy

of this letter. There it is, June lith, 1964, and it marks

you on distribution of the letter, and let me ask you if you

recall receiving that letter, a copy of that letter?

(The Witness

reads the document.)

Mr. Wannall. This letter was prepared in my section, am!

I am certain that I either saw the letter going out, or a copy

of the letter which was designated for me. I do not see thit

I - yes, my initials are on here as having

approved the

outgoing letter.

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Mr. gohnstore. Does that mean that you approved It prior

214S:

to its being sent?

Mr. Wannall. That's right.

ME. Johnston. This letter deals with a Warren Commission

request on data on Fair Play for Cuba, an organization called

Jure, the DRE, Alpha 66, and the 30th of November movement.

All of those groups would have been within your Jurisdiction:

Mr. Wannall. They were handled in the section I headed,

yes.

WAHD

REVIEWED

SEIFK TASK FORCE

dal

RELEASE IN FULL

ON

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Mr. Johnston, Do you know who was the author of this

letter, who drafted it for Mr. Hoover?

Mr. Wannall. Well, I can tell from theiinitials, are the;

not LLA?

Mr. Johnston. Yes.

Mr. Wannall. Lambert Anderson.

Mr. Johnston. He was -

Mr. Wannall.

He was a supervisor who was handling as I

recall the Fair Play for Cuba Conmittee.

Mr. Johnston, First of all, reading this letter, would ju:

have also seen the note on it?

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RELEASE IN PART

TOTAL DENT

to

Mr. Wannall. Oh, yes.

Mr. Johnston. And let me call your attention to one

sentence in the note which is, "The Conmission is being referie:

CIl and the Department of the Army.. CIA has or has had

operational interest in the DRE, Jure, and the 30th of

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November Movement and/or inalvidual.connected wherewith, and

the Department of the Army has operational interent With

51S003

certain individuals in the SNFE.

Now, you previously testified this morning that you did

not know of the Army interest in Cuban groups.

Does this refresh your recollection about

Mr. Wannall. Does that say an interest in the group? I'm

sure the Army had an interest in individuals because they were

training some of these people.

Mr. Johnston. Itm sorry, interest in certain Individuals

connectert with SNFE.

Mr. Wannall. I will have to say it doesn't do anything

for my recollection. I answered the question the best I

could. Having had that read to me by you doesn't give me the

benefit of any more material. It is obviouslfrom that that the

Army did have an interest in the SNFE.

M

Mr. Johnston. SNFE.

Mr. Wannall. I'm not even sure what that is.

Mr. Johnston. The Second National Front of Escambray.

Nir. Wannall. I've heard

of that. Now, we probably had

something on it in tle section.

Mr. Johnston. And indeed, this correspondence mentions

nameg of individuals as members of SNFE. In fact, those

individuals mentioned here were in Dallas, Texas. They were

residents of Dallas, Texas, and I ask you, given that fact, docs

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that refresh your recollection as to interest your section may

have taken in this correspondence?

Mr. Wannall. In what context?

Mr. Johnston.. In the context of, in connection with the

Investigation of President Kennedy's assassination, the names

of these Individuals in Dallas who were members of SNE rad

come out.

Mr. Wannall. No, it doesn't because this is az reply

to the Commission for information from our files. Now,

we, as I said before, I'm pretty sure we would have had a case

on the Second National Front of Escambray, Fair Play for Cuba

Committee and others mentioned in there which undoubtedly would

have preceded the Investigation, per se. I don't have any

recollection of any specific person connected with that grouy

or any other whose identity came to our attention as à result

of the assassination.

Is that your question?

Mr. Johnston. Yes.

But I'm saying

in this correspondence, these individuals

did come up in connection with the assassination investigation.

Mr. Wannall. It would seem so, and the Conmission obvious

expressed an interest in them and asked us for what we had on

them.

Mr. Johnston. Let me also ask, attached to this letter.

are 224 pages of reports from the field on these groups, and

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supporting the statements made in the letter. Again, all of

these deal with Cuban groups; either pro-oor anti-Castro groups,

and my question is, would you have reviewed these reports

prior to sending them to the Warren Commission?

Mr. Wannall. Not necessarily because the notecon-the

yellow indicates that the reports had been reviewed by Belmont

and Rosen, and Rosen's division had the case, and Belmont, of

course, was guite interested in the entire matter and was

coordinating it. And I knew that. I can't say yes or no. It

is unlikely that I did, simply because it had been reviewed on

a high level and a decision had been made they should get it.

That would be the only reason for my reviewing it, to make a

decision against its being furnished.

Mr. Johnston. You would not receive that correspondence ani

be asked whether it was an accurate or fair portrayal of these

groups.

Mr. Wannall. No, because this correspondence would have

been the results of investigations we had conducted, regularly

submitted by investigative reports or by letterhead memos, and

there would be no need for me to review that and say this was

a fair portrayal of the investigation. It would be

submitted

by the field, and then sometime prior to the date of this lette:

would have been reviewed by a desk man, put in a file, and

possibly, almost

assuredly, disseminated to various branches

within the Executive Department.

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Mr. Connston. YokayLet/me.justptake.youryanswer

:1n

two parts. First of all, as far as these being regular reports

from the field, with regard to that, individuals whöse names

came up in the Dallas area apparently were contacted by the

FBI specifically about the Kennedy assassination i ask you as

to whether you would have reviewed the submissions from the

field to determine whether they were consistent with the FBI

#iew of those groups and possibly of those individuals.

Mr. Wannall. I would not have personally reviewed that.

Mr. Johnston.. Would your section have done that?

Mr. Wannall. POssibly.

MI. Johnston. Under your overall jurisdictional responsi

bility.

Mr. Wannall. Normally if a division is handling something

and another division has an interest, the handling division

would take the responsibility for review, but would surely put

my name or the name of my section or 5 or the Division name

on it in order that the supervisor in our division would have

an opportunity to look it over.

Mr. Johnston.

Do you interpret - we do not have the

Warren Commission request, but do you interpret this response

to the Warren Commission -- I'm sorry •

(Pause)

Mr. Johnston. That references

a May 20, 1964 letter Ero.

the Warren Commission to Mr. Hoover, and let me read to you

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paragraph 3 of that

lottery whichtts a request tor a general

sunmary of activities of such groups, being the Bame groups

that we named, "outside of Texas during the year 1963 with

particular reference to activities in Chicago, Michigan,

Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, New York, Puerto

Rico and San Francisco."

In other words, the Commission is specifically requesting

the FBI to furnish information on these named groups and a

general sunmary of their activitles during the year 1963, and

I ask you whether you would have been

consulted

as to whether.

this response met

the request, in your knowledge of Cuban groupt.

Mr. Wannall. I will have to explain the possibility that

these - in fact, it says, there is a list identifying 46

memoranda and 15 reports. Now, if the memoranda were typed

in my section, I would have reviewed the memoranda as the

function in cunnection with sending mail up the line. The

reports I would not have reviewed.

I would

not have been

personally.consulted as towwhat should go in there, but I

would have the opportunity of anything that was actually typed

of

looking it over, and chances are I did on those 46. But

you understand from what you have said there, this was a

request for information on these individuals and groups in

areas outside of Dallas.

Mr. Johnston. I'm

sorry, I read only paragraph 3. Para-

graph 2 is a summy of activities throughout Texas.

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Mr. wannail. Then we possibly would have had a single

memo on that.: I don't know.I would have to see the enclosures

to try to give you the specifics.

Mr. Johnston. Well, the document inffront of you is

the entire enclosures to the letter, that whole, file folder.

Mr. Wannall, Well, let me may I take a look at it?

I'm talking bbout something and speculating.

Yes, in fact all of these are dated from May 27 up through

June 4. They were prepared, however, by our various offices.

They were apparently not prepared by our Division. I would

not have reviewed these.

Mr. Johnston. Would you have had anybody in your section

review these?

MI. Wannall. Yes, they would have been reviewed by the

man who prepared this memorandum..

Mr. Johnston. Lambert Anderson?

Mr. Wannall.

Yes.

In fact, the mechanics would be this.

The request would come in from the Comnission. Our supervisor

would have gotten the request.

It could have come down throw;!:

me.

And he obviously sent out to the Field Offices, conveyed

to them the nature of the request and asked for letterhead

memos responsive to it. These memos would have all gone baci

to him. He would organize.

them, review them

for typographic!

erIors, for substance, for contents, and

attach them all to

outgoiny letter.

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I originally, as I sala, would probably not have reviewed

them since they had been reviewed for approval by Messrs.

Belmont and Rosen.

Mr. Johnston. Then I guess what I'm asking ultimately is

do you know of any steps of of any procedures that were taken

to ensure that this information being provided to the Warren

Commission was in fact a true representation of the FBI holdings

on these groups?

Mr. Wannall. Well, I think the responsibility was fixed

on the field offices to furnish the infornation

that they had

in their files. I don't know of any other procedures that coul

have been invoked for that purpose, there being no reason for

taking any special precautions, in

that regard, to my knowledy:

Mr. Johnston. Are you saying that headguarters of FBI

had no responsibility for assuring that the Warren Commission

got an accurate portrayal of these groups?

Mr. Wannall. No, I'm saying that the men who would have

reviewed them would have been knowledgeable of these organiza-

tions.. Now, I can't say that Anderson was the expert on all

these organizations, but I see that he went through his

supervisor in charge, who was

Ray Mullens, and he initialled

it as having been a fair rendition or a

correct rendition oi

what knowledye there wes at headquarters on the thiny. I wi

have no reason

to believe that this was just taken and put

togetter without someona having gone over it knowledeably,

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TO SCHT

the fact that only Multens initials are on there doesn't

mean necessarily that somebody else didn't look them over.

For example, some of the groups mould have been handled by

Nasca. It is quite possible, le was in the unit, he may

have looked over the -- the way to find out for sure would be

to look at the incoming communications by which these

letterhead memos were transmitted, and the initials on there

would show who actually reviewed it.

Mr. Johnston. Let me ask specifically in the case of

Tampa, Florida. There is a report on Tampa, Florida, Fair

Play for Cuba Committee activities.. That report which originatuu

from the Miami office does not mention other activities of

Fair Play for Cuba Committee

in

Tampa which

were in FBI files

at the time this report was prepared.

Who made the final decision as to whether to include or

exclude other information in the Bureau files?

Mr. Wannall, I don't know.

Mr. Johnston. Did you take steps to assure that somebody

made those decisions?

Mr. Wannall. I rather doubt it, since they were reviewer

by Mr. Belmont and Mr. Rosen, it was handled on a pretty high

level. I'can't recall having had any specific discussions

on this particular piece of mail with anybody. I can't say

I didn't, but I

don't remenber any where I did.

Mr. Johnston. And if Mr. Belmont and Rosen wanted the

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advice of your section?

Me. Wannall. Yes

Mr. Johnston. Would they have bypassed you and gone

directly to your subordinates to get that advice?

Mr. Wannall. Well, Mr. Belmont had the prerogative of

talking with anyone he saw fit, yes.

Mr. Wallach. Where was Donale E. Moore?. What was his

position at this time?,. November of '63?

Mr. Wannall. Branch ChiefeInspector, Inspector-Branch

Chief.

Mr. Wallach. So he was below you?

Mr. Wannall. • No, that's above.

Mr. Wallach. That's above you.

Mr. Wannall. Yes, he initialled this on the way up.

His initials are on here.

Mr. Wallach.

He was number one man to the number two

man to the Inspector, whatever they call it?

Mr. Wannall. No, actually they didn't delineate between

the

two branch chiefs. at the time, the number one and number

two. lle would have been

responsible directly to the Assistant

Director.

Mr. Wallach. Which would have been whom, sullivan?

MI. Wannall. '64, that would have been Sullivan.

Mx. Wallach.

All right. Let me again read to you froil

a document that we haven't gotten a .copy of, and August docunch!

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1n.

164 which was written by Mr. Naca

-Itvatates.

18 18

noted at the request of Attorney General we are conducting

Investigation of allegations that U.S. Moodlum element and

Cuban exiles are involved in plan to assassinate Castro and

other Cuban leaders."

Now; stopping there, do you recall that investigation

or anything about that investigation in '64?

Mr. Wannall. I should because I would have been section

chief at the time and Nasca would have been working under

me, but I can't say that I can independently recall it.

Mr. Wallach. Do you ever recall any discussions about

"houdlum element" being involved in plans to assassinate

Fidel Castro at all, up until '67?

Mr. Wannall. No, during this timeframe I cannot recall

any discussions.

Mr. Wallach. Continuing on in this document it says "lie

are aware, in addition, that Attorney General reportedly

discussed this matter with White House, which reportedly

concurred with requested investigation. It is possible that

above-mentioned plan to assassinate Castro is identical with

one we have under investigation." The above-mentioned plan

was

the use of the high level Cuban.

Now, MI: Nasca obviously in 1964 knew about all this.

Do you recall knowing about it?

Mr. Wannall. Yes, now, yes, and you know, we had nume:.

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Investigations offalleged plane to assasslnate Castro.

The

20 702

hoodlum element aspect of it doesn't stick with me in my

memory, but it was probably one of several that we had.

Mr. Wallach. This is referring to above-mentioned plan

is the plan that he mentioned that CIA was using, AMLASil,

and I take it that in '64

we have him again, later in '64,

referencing it, and your best recollection is that you do not

recall ever being informed of it.

Mr. Wannall, I can't recall it. I can't say that I was

not.

410 First Street, S.E., Washingion, D.C. 20003

OR SECRET

Mr. Wallabh. Aside from such requests as MI. Johnston has

showed you, specific requests from the Warren Commission, were

you yourself personally involved in any aspects of the

investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Wannall. Personally involved in the investigation?

Mr. Wallach. Right. Asise from possibly reviewing name

checks or anything like that.

Mr. Wannall. My personal involvement, of course, would

have had to have been supervision of something. This is what

you have reference.to.

Mr. Wallach. Right. I realize you wouldn't have been ou:

in the field.

M5. Wannall. You

are reaching back so for, I would have

to honestly say I can't recall. I can't discount the possivi!.

that there was something, but I have no recollection of anythi

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Mr. Wallach. Do you ever recall generically of specifically

giving instructions that something be done in the Cuban area

to determine if there was Cuban involvement in the asgassinatior

of President Kennedy?

Mr. Wannall. I can't call up anything of that nature.

Mr. Wallach. We know from the documentation that certain

senior Bureau officials were aware of the fact that the CIA

had been attempting to assassinate Fidel Castro. Additionally,

1t would

Beem

from the documents that we have

reviewed over

there and requested further backup documentation on, that

certainly the same Bureau officials,. and in '64 even Mr. Nasca,

were aware that the CIA was on the very day of the asgassinatio

passing a poison pen.

I don't know if he was aware in that

great detail, but they were aware that in November of '63 the

CIA was actively attempting to assassinate Fidel Castro.

Can you give me any explanation as to why this

information would not have been made available to you as the

person charged with responsibility in the Nationalities

Intelligence Section, and

one of the persons who was most

familiar with Cuban

activities?

Mr. Wannall. No, I can't give you any explanation. I

would say it should have been called to my attention and possi:

was, but I just can't recall if it was. It would be normal

for a man in the division in my section to have called

information of that nature to my attention.

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Mr • Wallach

Based upon -

"accepting the tact right

now that I've told you about the CiA's efforts, andaaccepting

for a fact that it was learned that Castro was aware in detail

of each step in the CIA's plots against him, and, -in fact, there

was: some evidence developed, intelligence evidence that

Indicated that he might have attempted some sort of retaliation,

be it absolutely not factual, not concrete - I want to

stress that - would you in any way, looking back, have directed

any different type of investigation, or would you have felt

that that type of an investigation could

have been only con-

ducted by the CIA and have gone to them to ask them to conduct

the

investigation?

I'm going - what I'm getting at very frankly, Mr. Wannall.

is that we have an investigation where a heck of a lot of

Bureau

evidence, your agents did thousands of manhours of work

tracing down every possible piece of physical evidence, every

possible ramification in certain areas, whereas

the Cuban

area

it seems very frankly that almost nothing was

done,

and

what I'm

trying to get a grasp on, what the Senators are

concerned about, is why.

Really, I'm asking if you can shed any light on that at

all.

Mr. Wannall. You asked me if I had known about this

would I have directed something be done.

It's difficult sitting here now to tell you what was goin:

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through my mind at the time.

While you were talking, I do recall a alcuation I don't

know when I learned about it, where some Hoodlums from

Chicago, I think it was, were allegedly going down to Florida,

possibly to Miami, and I think that was checked out and found

to be without foundation, so the hoodlum alement ala come In

to there. Whether there was an allegation they were going

down to assassinate Castro, I can't recall, and I think that

was handled on the Cuban desk. So there must have been an

allegation that would tie in with the cubans.

To my knowledge, anything that seemed

should be checked out

was checked out.. As an example, everyone who had any connec-

tions whatsoever, either direct or indirectly with cases

which came to the attention of the Bureau as a result of the

assassination was interviewed, and during the course of that,

one of my men was asked why he didn't have Oswald on the

Security Index, and

I made it very clear to him that in my

opinion if he thought he

should have been on there, he should

have called it to the attentic, of the supervisor handling the

case.

So we weren't sitting in a removed area unconcerned. ve

were trying to do whatever seemed logical.

Mr. Wallach. I don't mean to argue, and I don't mean ti

try to look back with hindsight, and I realize that a lot of .:

knowledge that I'm talking about you obviously did not have a:

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Dron SeCRu

that time period. But,for example, given the tacts.

that

ERAS AN

certain senior Bureau officials, including Allen Belmont and

William Sullivan knew, just be it the fact: that the Mafia

was used because they had high level sources inside Cuba to

try to kIll Fidel Castro, and the fact that sullivan and

Belmont knew the names of those Mafia figures, and the fact

that these articles were at least called, these threats were

called to Sullivan!s attention, and certainly the attention --

we can't speak to Mr. Belmont, he is 111 -- an explanation as

to why, for example, the Bureau did not go out and talk to any

of these people or talk to the later, identified in '64, Cuban

personages who were involved in the CIA's attempts to

assassinate Castro, particularly because they did have access

to Castro -- one of them was a member of his entourage, immediate

entourage - to determine if there was any Cuban

involvement

in the assassination.

In other words, it appears to. me as

a layman that we

have this huge counterintelligence machinery that was never

called into play in the Cuban area, and what I'm trying

to

make, and what we're trying to make here is a determination

as to why it wasn't called into play, and maybe at the time

there was no evidence that was called to your attention that

would lead you to believe that it should have been, but the

investigation that was conducted

appears to have been sort oi

a backtracking of Oswald, I mean, as to where he was, what he

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aia, etc.y and pinning that down, land almostiam hot saying

that he didn't kill the president, but almost proving that

fact rather than going out and pressing a button and conducting

a separate and independent investigation as best you could.

And maybe it wasn't possible to see 1f Cuba had actually

partioipated or attempted to assasainate the president of the

United States. That just doesn't appear to have been done

from the records, and while you say you have a bellet that

some sources were contacted and other things were done in the

Cuban area, the records seem to belie that.

And I'm really asking, do you have any - I would like

to have it for the record, any

specific recollection of anythir

like that being done.

Mr. Wannall. What I said was not that I had the belief

that the sources were contacted. I said that

would have

been

a normal thing to do, and you have a notation that consideration

was given, and obviously it was turned down.

Now, you have mentioned to me that the knowledge that

Belmont and Sullivan had -

Me. Wallach. Hell, you can see that for example -- and

we have other documents; but I just showed you the May 10,

'62 Hoover memorandum as one example to show you that they

were at least aware of that at that early date.

There is

extensive documentation and followup that shows that they had

a continued awareness of it. Those Mafia "plots" terminated

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In early 163) and the other plots began taking place after

that, one of which we have referred to earlier.

Until recently we did not know that the Bureau was aware

of that plot... But some documents; which we don't have here

yet which I would be glad to show you if we had them, indicate

that the Bureau was aware. of that plot and in all likelihood

It was aware of it in the fall of 1963 before the assassination.

Mr. Wannall. Was that the one out of Chicago that I have

a recollection of?

Mr. Wallach. No, this is the one of using the high level

Cuban to assassinate Castro, the CIA's -- I want to be careful

the CIA's using a high level Cuban official, and if that is in

fact the case, the Bureau could very easily have put together

what we have put together and seen that there are some very

coincidental remarks by Castro after meets with that agent,

and I'd rather not go into the whole thing here, but that

there would be some reason to believe -- I want to be clear

I have

no evidence that in fact it was such the case, but

I'm just asking, based upon the information, I don't have al:

understanding of why a separate button wasn't pushed. Even

in the Soviet area it appears that a lot more was done than

in

the Cuban

area.

And what I'm trying to yet at, whether -- was there

any

reason for that that you can recall.

Mr. Wannall. No, I can't. I don't -- my recollection 1

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don't have knowledge of the Intornation, and don tihave

knowledge of what other information was available that might have

explained some of the allegations that were made.l Some of the

material could very well have gone to different desks.

There

isn't necessarily one place where everything goes together,

although there Is supposed to be a cross-routing of these things.

I can't give you any explanation as to why, if it was

not done, or there wasn't some reason for not doing it.

You

said Belmont and Sullivan had knowledge of these things, but

I don't know whether they were also knowledgeable that somethin

hadn't been pursued

and specifically resolved.

Mr. Wallach.

Well, we have not seen that from the

documents.

Mr. Wannall. Well, I don't know either. I have to say

that there is a possibility of that.

Mr. Wallach. And the CIA has told us that they didn't

conduct the investigation because it was the FBI's job.

Mr. Wannall. Well, I am not too familiar with the

operations of the Commission, but it is my understanding at

least that the Conmission itself got material and

sent leads

to our Division 6 to pursue.. Wasn't all of this, the CIA,

the FBI and any

other

aspects

all funneled through the

Conmission?

Mr. Wallach. Well, dearly in the evidence we have

developed, there is no evidence that the assassination plots

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against Fidel Castro ever reached the CommienIon

They would make requests like Mr. Johnston showed you

Sor

information on certain Cuban groups. They would be supplled

with documents which, in retrospect, when we look at the

documentation, appears not to be adequate, but it's not

purposely misleading, I want to be clear about that.

But Me. Johnston knows more about the Cuban situation

than I do.

What was your understanding of - or let me ask you this.

Did you in any way participate in a supervisory capacity in the

Bureau's investigation in Mexico City.. You are aware that

Oswald had contact with the Cuban consulate down there about

some five and a half, six weeks before the assassination.

Mr. Wannall. I didn't participate in the supervision

of that.

Mr. Wallach. Were you at any time made aware of the

fact that -- I'm sorry, strike that.

Do you know what Department 13, Line V of the KGB is?

MI. Wannall. My recollection is, it is the sabotage and

assassination section, is it not?

Mr. Wallach. Yes.

Were

you at any time informed that one of the persons witn

whom Oswald

had contact at the Soviet embassy was their chief

man

in that department?

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall hearing that. That was prob!

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pursued, 1f lt was in our division, in the esplonage section.

Mr. Wallach, Sure, I understand that. I'm asking

whether or not -

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall that, 'no.

Mr. Wallach. This is a memorandum dated 11/27/63 from

yourself to sullivan - I realize that someone else wrote it.

here. I don't even know if your initials are on it.

My question really doesn't go to the substance of it

except for the fact that it appears that initially you were

somewhat tangentially, at least, involved in the Mexico City

investigation

and then your name doesn't appear in any subsequent

correspondence or documentation.

I was wondering if you recall

any reasons why that might have been the case.

(The Witness reads the document.)

Mr. Wannall. I probably saw a copy of this. I didn't

see the original. It would be unlikely that I didn't read the

tickler that would come in.

MI. Wallach. Do you recall at any time having discussions

as to what would happen if it was determined that there

was Cuban involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy

or what would happen if the Bureau had missed something

in its

handling of the Oswald case

prior to the

assassination?

Mr. Wannall.

What would happen if we had missed sonethin;

or if Cuba had been involved in the assassination?

Mr. Wallach. Yes. By way of background, the

fact is mise

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show that the Buread had been derelice intes handling of the

pre-assassination Oswald security case, most pointedly in the

fact that the investigation was not stepped up after Oswald

was in contact with certain foreign establishments in Mexico

City, but it aiso goes to other questions, such as security

Index, etc., and he stressed continually through his memorandums

the embarrassment that had been caused to the Bureau by this,

and in one memórandum to Mr. Deloach, there was a possibility

of the fact that the Bureau was going to be blamed for the

death of President Kennedy.

Now, with that sort of background, and my very limited

knowledge of the Bureau, I was wondering if you recall any

discussions as to what would have happened if indeed the Bureau

had missed a very salient point about Oswald that was turned

up during the investigation.

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall any discussions of that naturi.

I do know that Mr. Hoover was very upset with about a dozen

and a half men who had any connections with the cases that

had ramifications on

the assassination investigation, and toon

disciplinary action

in

several cases against the men. But th

had nothing to do with having missed a salient point. It hau

to do with the

handling of the Oswald case principally.

Mr. Wallach, Well, we have Mr. Gale's memorandums to

Mr. Tolson in which

he talks about disciplinary action.

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I understand that the alsalbithasy, action had nothing to

do with missing a sallent point) it had really

antalture to

follow up internally on Bureau procedures in terms of wire

information was available, for example, putting Oswald on the

security index; when everyone who touched the Oswald case

felt he should not have been on the security index, and in

any event, under the then current dissemination procedures, it

is my understanding that that would not have led:to the notifi-

cation of the Secret Service in any event.

Mr. Wannall. Not then.

Mr. Wallach. Right.

What I'm talking about is really whether or not the Bureau

had in its two interviews of Oswald after he returned from the

Soviet Union, or in not putting more emphasis on the Oswald

case, had missed, for example, a meet that he might have had

with a known KGB or DGI agent in New York City, or had missed

a lot of what happened in Mexico City while he was down there.

It seems the only evidence they have of what happened when

he was down there was from the tapes received

from CIA and fr

its follow-up

investigation.

But what I'm saying

is that since you had oswald the sub!':

of a security case and Mr. Hoover having demonstrated his

dislike of having the Bureau embarrassed, whether there were

any discussions in the Bureau about what would happen if it

turned up that something had been missed, that the

Bureju shoui:

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have, during the course of enewsecurity Investigationy known

about

Mr. Wannall. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Wallach. Kare you yourself awaro of any occasions

in which: the Bureau misrepresented anything to the Warren

Commission?

Mr.. Wannall. (Nods in the negative)

Mr. Wallach. Let me read you one example that is stated

In a memorandum and ask you if this was ever discussed with

you.

The Bureau by letter to the Commission indicated that

"the facts did not warrant placing a stop on Oswald's passport

as our investigatio disclosed no evidence that Oswald

was

acting under the instructions or on behalf of any foreign

government or instrumentality thereof.

"Although it is proper at this time to take this public

position, it is felt that with Oswald's background, we should

have had a stop on his passport, particularly since we did

not know definitely whether or not he had any intelligence

assignments at that time."

So, in other words, we have internally senior Bureau

officials saying that while we took this public position and

represented this to the Warren Commission, I don't feel like

this, and this memorandum was signed off on by four or five

other senior Bureau officials.

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JOR SECRET

Now do you recall

that factor any other facto tike it

where the Bureau took a public position but really had another

position on how it should have handled the case?

Mi. Wannall.: Well, I wouldn't have seen that memo because

I was probably written up, in there for consideration of

administrative action.

I don't have any knowledge of it. I

think you probably regognize from your extensive Inguiries

into Bureau procedures:

and policies at the time Mr. Hoover was

there, it was the thing to do to tell him, well, this is the

public position that you're looking for in something, and this

is something that you can be criticized for.

Mr. Wallach. I just have a couple more questions.

Turning now to 1967, we have been informed by the Bureau

officially that the assassination case is still open, that it

has been open, and any significant leads, or any leads that

come in are still followed up.

Is that your understanding?

Mr. Wannall. I was not aware of that.

When were you informed of that, Mr. Wallach?

Mr. Wallach.. Oh, at

all times it has been my understand.:

in fact, there is still an agent assigned to the case. His

nane escapes me now. I remember he struck me as a very capaii.

young ayent,

and that the case is still open, the assassinat!.:

case itself.

MI. Wannall. I was not aware of that.

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In any eventy in february and Maron or 1967 awhat

was your

position within the Bureau?

MI. Wannall. Chief, I don't know 1f it was Latin

American or Nationalities Intelligence, but one of the two

sections, at which time Cuban matters were handled in that

section.

Mr. Wallach. Well, Bureau records I'm sure would reflect

which section you were chief of.

But within elther

section you would have had responsibility

for Cuban matters in 1967?

Mr. Wannall. It's my recollection they were returned to

the section, having been removed in May of '65, returned about

August of '66.

MI. Wallach. Were you at any time - well, let me read

you - briefly go over a couple of documents with you.

By letter dated February 13, 1967, MI. Rowley of the

Secret Service informed the Director that he had met with

Justice Warren, and that Justice Warren told him that Drew

Pearson's friend, Edward Pierpont Morgan, who was a former

Bureau agent, reported to him that Bobby Kennedy

had organize

a group that went to Cuba to kill Castro, and that all the

group were killed or imprisoned, except one person who escaped,

and that

subsequently Castro decided to utilize the same

procedure to kill President

Kennedy.

In any event, Rowley came into the picture because Morgan

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was on the no contact 1st, which t m auro you have heard of.

Mr. Wannall Wi've heard about lthyes.

Mr. Wallach, And was reluctant to go to the Bureau.

In

any event, Mr. Morgan and Mr. Rowley never got together, for

reasons that we have not yet been able to determine why Mr.

Rowley did not get in contact with Me. Morgan, and chla letter

of February 13, 1967; reported the facts to the Bureau essen-

tially as I have stated them to you..

This is the Bureau's response some two days later to

Mr. Rowley.

(The Witness reads the document.)

Mr. Wallach. Let me

also

ask you this.. In the February

13, 1967 letter, which is just an incoming letter from Mr.

Rowley, the Bureau stamped it Secret, and then it used this

form

of dissemination slip, and I ask you if you during your

years at the Bureau have ever

seen a slip that uses the term

"eyes only" on it for internal Bureau memorandum where no

information was provided by a third agent or a third agency

file, or at any time, really.

MI. Wannall. Eyes only was not normally used by the

Bureau. I can't say it was never used

in cases other than

this, but normal procedure would not be to use that as an

indication of the fact that this should be handled on a

very confined basis.

MI. Wallach. I'm sorry, your understanding of eyes only

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1d: what?.

Wannall. That it is to go to the individual to whom

It is addressed, to be opened by him.

Now, we have used communications in double envelopes, to

be opened by addressee only, but even on the inside communication

we would not put eyes only.

Is that responsive to the question?

Mr. Wallach.

Yes, 1t 18. I mean, well, it would indicate

to you that it was a very sensitive matter of some sort?

Mr. Wannall. Well, from having received communications

with that legend on it from other agencies, I would asgume it

to be a very sensitive matter, yes.

Mr. Wallach. Well, this eyes only was put on a routing

slip internally in the FBI, emanating from Mr. Hoover's office.

Do you ever at any

time recall -- and I realize you've

seen thousands, in fact millions of documents, but do you ever

recall seeing an eyes only document emanating from Mr. Hoover's

office?

Mr. Wannall. I would

say that there have been other docu-

ments of that nature, but very infrequently.

Mr. Wallach. Generally are they extremely sensitive

security matters or

extremely sensitive matters?

Mr. Wannall. You're asking an opinion. I would say

in my opinion yes.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall ever being informed of the

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Morgan allegation abirelayedlto Drew Peirion and warren

Mr. Wannall®

Isn't that tied in with the same information

which was used as a basis for my letter?

Mr. Wallach.

Well, I was going to ask you that; but I

mean, separately, independently, before we get to that, this

1s In February. Your memorandum is a March memorandum that

we're talking about.

•Mr. Wannall. Well, no, I didn't see this particular

information that came in, to my best recollection, and I don't

recall having heard the information prior to my preparation of

the letter.

MI. Wallach. Do you have

any information as to why - and

I now show you a memorandum dated February 15, 1967, from

Rosen to DeLoach, information relating to Cuba, possible

assassination attempts against Castro, retaliations by Cubans

against the President Kennedy would not have been referred to you,

to your unit?

Mr. Wannall.. I can only say it looks as though it was

handled on a very discrete, limited basis, and that possibly

is the reason I didn't.

Mi. Wallach. Let me show you who else had knowledge of

it, of this February

memo, February 13, '67.

('The Witness reads

the document.)

MI. Wannall. Well, Deloach, of course, his position was

such

that he would be knowledgeable. Rosen did have the

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assassination, which Le

he captLomon chi. communicatlon.

Mr. Wallach. * Aside from Mr. Suillvan, was anyone else

involved in the Domestic Intelligence Division?

Mr. Wannall. I can't tell that anyone else was involved

from this. Wait a minute, yes, I can, Branigan's name 18 on

here, and there is a name, and I don't recognize what it is.

It starts with a l, but it's not initialled by me, at least

to the best of my being able to make this out. If you have

a clearer copy

Mr. Wallach. No, that's it.

Mr. Wannall. It looks as though it was initialled for

someone whose name began with a W. Now, whether that is Wannal

I can't really say.

Mr. Wallach. Would it be wick?

Mr. Wannall. It could ke Wick. In fact, it looks more

as though it is Wick. It's a shorter name than Wannall would

be.

Mr. Wallach. Right.

Mr. Wannall. Well, Wick, of course, received a copy oi

the communication itself.

Mr. Wallach.

Well, this in essence rehashes it, but what

I would like to get

some understanding of is internally

within the Bureau why this matter would have

been

referred for

response to the General Investigative Division or into

the Criminal Division, Mr. Rosen's division as compared to th

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as contrasted to the Domestle Intelligence Divisione

Mr. Wannall. I think I earlier explained that an ans

investigation of the importance of the Kennedy Assassination

would take precedence over anything else, and the caption on

the communication, as I recall, which you have there, 1s

Assassination of Kennedy, and he was the one who was - Rosen's

division was the one where the investigation itself was

being coordinated and handled. I don't think it was unusua' that

it went to Rosen.

Mr. Wallach. Well, do you recall anybody ever making

Inquiries of you

as to whether or not this information that

Morgan was alleging was true or not?

Mr. Wannall. I have no recollection of anyhody making

any such inguiries.

Mr. Wannall. Let me give you two memorandums dated March.

6, and let you just review them along with an article that

was

written by Drew Pearson, the Washington MerryGoRound which

appeared on I think it was March 6 or 7, I'm sorry, I'm

not positive. Additionally, I don't believe it appeared in the

Washington newspapers.

Let me just give you these three documents and ask you ti

take a l00k at them.

I think those are the ones that we reviewed when we were

talking at your office, or the first two memorandums were.

(The Witness reads the documents.)

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Mr. Wannall

I think I have

Masteroe

Mx. Wallach.

Would you take a look at the Pearson article

just briefly, please.

(The witness reads the document.

Mr. Wallach. I realize that might be difficult for you

to make out.: I just want you to get the gist of it.

Mr. Wannall. All right.. If you have questions that

I haven't covered, I'1l refer to it.

MI. Wallach, What I would like to get from you, Mr.

Wannall, on the record, is an explanation as to what precipitatod

this March 6, 1967 memorandum.

Mr. Wannall. That is shown by a notation at the bottom

of the second page, I think, by Mr. DeLoach, the Attorney.

General had requested this information.

Mr. Wallach. Is that Mr. DeLoach's handwriting, as best

as you can tell?

Mr. Wannall. Yes, I think it is, I think it is Deloach's

handwriting.

MI. Wallach. Do you recall Deloach coming to you?

MI. Wannall. No, the normal way for this to come down

would he through the Assistant Director, probably a call, and

then a call to me by the Assistant Director, or by Don Moore,

or by sonieone over me.

ir. Wallach. Do you recall how it did come about?

Mr. Wannall. No, I don't. As a matter of fact, when 1

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got to the noters wondered myself why it came about:

It says

pursuant to the request, so I have to rely on the note as being

a request from the AG which was conveyed to us.

Mr. Wallach. Were you ever told why the AG wanted the

information?:

Mr. Wannall: No.

Mr. Wallach. I take it you were never told what precipi

tated his request.

MI. Wannall. No. As a matter of fact, the way that it is

worded in the first paragraph, in accordance with instructions,

would indicate that we just had instructions to gather this.

stuff together, in communication with the AG, and this was put

on to explain to the Director or to remind the Director

Mr. Hoover why this communication had been put together.

MI. Wallach. Now, the subject is Central Intelligence

Agency's intentions

to send hoodlums to Cuba to assassinate

Castro.

Do you recall receiving

any broader instructions than that.

that the President, through the Attorney General, actually

wanted to know what if

anything the Bureau had on U.s. attemy;

to

assassinate Castro?

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall any

such.

Mr. Wallach.

Do you recall your instructions as beina

linited to the use of hoodlums to assassinate Castro, or you

really don't know..

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Mr. Wannail. it Is very alfricults cor mento tecall the

specific instruction. I can only draw conclusions from what is

in the memorandum:

Mr. Wallach.. What I'm getting at la from the recent

documents we've seen but have not yetrireceived, and all of

which we have not yet seen there appears extensive documentation

In Bureau files that the Bureau had knowledge of other CIA

attempts to assassinate Castro than those that made use of the

Mafia, and I wonder if you recall any discussions at this time

as to just limiting this request to the Mafia.

Mr. Wannall. I don't recall any discussions of that

nature.

Mr. Wallach: Can you recount for us as best you can what you

did in order to respond to this reguest?

Mr. Wannall.

Well, I signed it out to one of the

supervisors who prepared the communication.

Mr. Wallach. GCM?

Mr. Wannall. Yes.

• Mr. Wallach, Whose name is what?

Mr. Wannall. George C. Mohr.

Mr. Wallach. Now, do you know how he went about preparing

the communication, just from reviewing files?

Mr. Wannall. That would be the only means that he would

have of doing it.

Mr. Wallach. Do you know if Mr. Nasca was

involved in tic

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preparation?:

It is my understanding, and I can't remember who explained

it to me, that this took place over a weekend. The Attorney

General requested it on a Friday and over the weekend there

were Bureau agents within your section revlewing files all

weekend..

Mr. Wannall.

THat information was passed on to me by

Nasca. He recalled it, before I retired. That, may be where

it originated.

Mr. Wallach. Was there a reason why there was

nothing

included in this memorandum about the fact that a suggestion

was

made in Belmont's presence by some general that the Mafia

I'm sorry, I think you didn't know if it was the Mafia.

Mr. Wannall.

No, I did not.

Mr. Wallach.

well, I withdraw the question then.

Was there any discussion in your section amongst the peoul?

who, including yourself, about whether of not the CIA attempts.

to assassinate Castro using the Mafia were related in any way

to the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Wannall. I can't recall any such discussions.

Mr. Wallach: Do you recall any connection at all. between

or any mention now of whether or not Morgan's statementa and

inquiries precipitated this review?

Does that ring a bell together? Do you recall Morgan

said certain people in the underworld?

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TORS RI

Mr Wannall

NO eally whiloss cannot toil you

posItIvely, I am fairly convinced, in my mind that we would not

have known the basis for the Attorney General's request.

It is

possible, it looks as though DeLoach may have gotten the

request from the Attorney General since he put the notation on

It, but we would have had instructions to compile the information

and get it out.

I think had we known that, we would put right in the flrst

paragraph, based on the Attorney General's indication the

President was interested in this, of something of this nature.

Mr. Wallach. Let me just give you a little scenario of

what happened after this memorandum was prepared, and I take

it, disseminated on or about March 6, 1967.

On March 17,

1967, according to a memorandum from Deboach to Tolson,

DeLoach was instructed through Marvin Watson that the Bureau

had to interview Edward Morgan.

Mr. Wannall. He was instructed by Marvin Watson?

MI. Wallach. The Bureau had no inclination on its own

to interview Mr. Morgan, and no one has been

able to tell us

why.

In any event, Mr. Watson indicated that the President

wanted Mr. Morgan interviewed.

He was subsequently interviewer!

by two agents from the Washington field office. The whole

process was run out of Mr. Rosen's division, none of which

persons had any knowledge of the validity of the claims that the:

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TOP OLORE

G.s. Government had used Maflat gured non attemplato x111

Fidel Castro. Mr. Morgan was Interviewed on March 21, 1967,

and stated, among other things, that his cilents were underworla

figures. It was a matter of public record at that time that

he was representing Maheu and Rosselll. It goes on to say,

Mr. Morgan further explained that his clients - he had noted

that he, Morgan, was employed by more than one of those involved

obtained this information concerning Castro's dispatch of these

assassins from feedback furnished by sources. in place close to

Castro who had been initially placed there in effecting the

purpose of the original project.

Now, going back, the feedback that he went on to say was

that -- well, he went on to say that his clients were involved

in the project that had as its purpose the assassination of

Fidel Castro. Elaborate plans were made, including the

infiltration of the Cuban government, placing informants in

key

posts within cuba.

The project almost reached fruition when Castro became

aware of it and arrested a number of suspects. By pressuring

captured suspects, he was able to learn fully of the plots

against him, and decided, "if that was the way President Kennic:

wanted it, he too would engage in the

same

tactics."

Castio

thereafter employed teams of individuals who were dispatched

to the U.S. for the purpose of assassinating President Kennedy.

And then it went on to say that Morgan further explained

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that his cilents obtained this ntormaton concering Castro's

dispatch of the assassins fron feedback grun shed by sources

In place close to Castro who had been Initially placed there

in effecting the purpose of the original project, 1.e., the

U.S. Government's attempts against Fidel Castro.

So at that point you have Morgan making an allegation

that Castro retaliated, making an allegation that there were

high level sources in the Cuban government, around Castro, who

were placed there by government agencies, and that they had

gotten feedback that Castro had sent out teams to retaliate

in kind against President Kennedy.

He even stated in the interview that his clients were

aware of the identity of some of the individuale who came to

the United States for this purpose, and they understood that

two such individuals were now living

in the State of New Jersey

and then he went on to say

he knew where in New Jersey they

were living.

The Bureau did absolutely nothing with this information.

It was never followed up, and it was passed on to the Presido:

and to the Attorney. General. So I'm not saying that the Presli

or the Attorney General did nothing with the information

also.

Was this ever made known to you, I mean these

facts in

1967?

At least Morgan's allegations ever made known to you?

Mr. Wannall. I saw Horgan's allegations during the

course of the collection of this material, I think, by Cassid:.

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Mr. Wallacht Jack Cassidy?

Mr. Wannall. Fred. Cassidy.

Mr. Wallach:...I think I met him in your office that day.

Mr. Wannall. That's right.

I don't recall having seen it at that time.. In transmit-

ting it to the President or the AGi was there any indication

that we would do nothing more unless requested, or do you know?

I ask that because normally that is what the Bureau would do.

We were responding to a request of an official in the White

House to conduct an interview.

Mr. Wallach.: Mrs. Stiegal, who was the President's secretary, enclosei

information which I believe would be.of interest to Mr. Watson, Informatio::

containing enclosure which is revealed on page 4, has been furished by CLA

on a strictly highly confidential,. need to know basis. That

is information that was added on to the Morgan

interview

saying yes, indeed, we know there were

assassination plots

against Castro.

In view of this, it was requested that it be handled on i

most restricted basis. This information has

also been furnis

to the Attorney General

and the U.S. Secret Service.

After taken

away from the classified enclosure, this

document becomes unclassified.

So, in answer to your question, no, and the letter to

Rowley and the Attorney General, no, and from what we lookes:

at in the Department of Justice files, it

apparently went ti

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Tend drui

013

yagrey and there vas no tollowipion

chat

I don't know why, but in any event

what I was asking was

whether -I take it from your answer that you in 1967 were

never made aware of the Morgan allegations at all:

Mr. Wannall. I cannot recall that I was.

Mr. Wallach. Well, I don't think I have any further

questions. I thank you very much for baing fully cooperative.

I realize that in some of these questions it's been 12 to 15

years, and I understand that. It 15, of course, a given. I

sometimes can't. remember: two.or.three months back.

And I think you have been most cooperative with us throughout

the course of our Committee.

Mr. Wannall. Well, at the time we had the Fair Play for

Cuba Committee, case in the section, it was one of 2700, and

if you interviewed

me on the others, I would have the same

difficulty, but I have done the best I can in trying to

remember this for you.

Mr. Wallach.

Thank you very

much.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 o'clock p.m., the interview

in the

above-entitled matter was concluded.)

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## Page 86

is line 2y impelling.

began releasing

10002020530

That I have

heard about

this by word

- from

-Donahoe It is passible if the

land 3:

One tas

I think was Aprel of oh, the

•Cuban missile erisis i which was.

-any

contact with a ClA efficers duxing

tbat parady nor en

accomplished was that the anti- Castra

-Cubassist that Mime were int.

Playe

line-i5:

sources normally by symbol number

_and the names are

-Kept

Gage 31 line 1:..

Bage 31. line 1s

were conducting them zgainst the im.

Play for Cute Commuttee here,.

Mr. Warnal!

.. Oh, I thaks so. he's

wuld send = communicating

w. Raym

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## Page 87

werent but T

any-

specifies aspelt

ừ han tay cu men dien

120

Mulline

To SAKS

ofanix

in ferment were in that ante Castro

Misspelling.

- Mulling

Gage 19. linh -21

Cage 0o line ti

ge b0 line 1:

milling - Ray Milline

Messalling - Mullins 310

would shew who actually

renewed them

Mr wannall No, I cants I dest

Itis my recollectiner

Baguao line I1: had been prissied and spreifically

reselved..

Gage 74 line 12 :

stuff tonihir, in a communication li

the AG, and this was -put

apa 15 tire 20 :

Mr. Wannal!: George C, Morra

W) Reymond Men!

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