INTERVIEW WITH JAMES P. O'CONNELL
Originator: ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION
From: BELIN, DAVID
To: THE FILE
Document date: 05/17/1975
Document type: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

178-10002-10214

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Agency Information

AGENCY: ROCKCOM

RECORD NUMBER:

178-10002-10214

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Document Information

ORIGINATOR: ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION

FROM: BELIN, DAVID

TO: THE FILE

TITLE:

INTERVIEW WITH JAMES P. O'CONNELL

DATE: 05/17/1975

PAGES:

19

SUBJECTS :

CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

CUBAN EXILES

ROSELLI, JOHNNY

ORGANIZED CRIME

MIAMI

MAHEU, ROBERT

GIANCANA, SAM

DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: Consulted; 1A; Other Work Copies

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 05/24/1995

OPENING CRITERIA: WHEN CIA NAME CAN BE RELEASED

COMMENTS:

Attached to 1781000210213.

v9.l

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COMMISSION ON CIA ACTIVITIES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES

Washington, DC 20500

178-10002-10214

May 17, 1975

MEMORANDUM

TO

FROM

SUBJECT

: The File

: David W.

Belin

: Interview with James P. O'Connell

Belin:

This is a memorandum of an interview with James P.

O'Connell, who resides at--

O'Connell: 1333 Elsinore Avenue, McLean, Virginia

B :

And what's your zip code there?

0:

22101

B:

And what's your 'phone number?

0:

356-9666

PHOTOCOPY

FROM

THE GERALD

B:

The date of this interview is May 17, 1975, and Mason ?

Cargill of the Commission staff is also present. I

reviewed with Mr. O'Connell matters pertainina

to an alm

plot to assassinate Fidel Castro of Cuba.

Mr. O'Connell says

is not certain now concerning particular dates when

might or might not have taken place because they in-

volve situations that took place approximately fifteen years

says that he believes that he made some

notes which the last time he knew the notes were in the

personal safe of Howard Osborne who was then Director of the

Office of Security, and he indicates that with regard to

particular matters of this interview that the best recollection

he could make would be if he had the notes in front of him.

He is goingandtry to see if he can get those notes but the

interview is going to be based on his best recollection now

in the absence of his notes. Is that accurate, Mr. O'Connell?

0:

Correct.

B:

Mr. O'Connell I believe that you said that you came

to the CIA from the FBI approximately in 1951. Is

that correct?

UNMARKED

MAY CONTAIN NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION

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Ai: Mada?

0:

December 1951.

B:

And when you came to the CIA, what did you do?

0:

I was assigned to the Office of Security and ini-

tially my

first assignment was a desk chief, the

title of--at that time, I believe was Covert Security

Clearance Branch, or Desk.

B:

And then what did you do?

0:

well, I progressed through the years in the Office

of Security--it's the only office I ever worked with

in the CIA, and eventually when

I retired two years

ago, I

was Deputy Director of Security for Physical, Technical, and

Overseas Affairs.

B:

I believe you said that you were in the metropolitan

Washington area during the latter part of the 1950s

until approximately June of 19623

0:

That's correct, I was assigned in the Washington

area

until I went overseas--the Far East--in June

of '62.

B:

During the 1950s, did you ever have an opportunity

to become acquainted with Robert Maheu?

0:

Yes, I did.

B:

And what was the occasion of that?

0:

The occasion was about 1952 or '53. He was at that

time working independently as

a security consultant

and he had just left the job with Small Business Administra-

tion where he was

the Security Officer and he was striking

out for himself. Robert Cunningham, who was my boss at that

time, knew Maheu and the FBI had high regard for his capa-

bilities and abilities, and we were looking for a covert

he hong

asset in the Office of Security and Mr. Maheu was struggling

in the sense that he didn't have very much capital.

We gave

him a retainer

so he could open up an office and in return

he did

certain

assignments for us.

B:

In the Office of Security.

0:

For the Office of Security.

B:

For the Office of Security. Maheu had been an FBI

agent at one time. Is that correct?

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0:

Right.

B:

And do you remember off-hand what the retainer was?

0:

B:

I believe we gave him $500 a month.

Subseguently, did you have contact with him from

time to time over the latter part of the 1950s?

0:

Well, from the time I

was assigned as his case offi-

cer, which was approximately 1953-54, again I'm not

too sure of the dates, I

handled him, if you

want to call

ituthat; until 1962 when I went overseas.

B:

You were his case officer?

0:

Right.

B:

Now, I want to ask you whether or not you ever heard

inside the Agency of any plans or schemes which might

have involved the assassination of any foreign leader other

than Fidel Castro?

0: . I can say categorically no.

B :

been involved name de me me me ene

any plots involving murder or assas

sination of anyone in this

country?

0:

Not to my knowledge.

B:

Now, Mr. O'Connell, some time in the latter part of

1960, according to our interview before we started

making this tape, you said that Shef Edwards came to you

with regard to a

particular matter.

Is that correct?

0:

That's correct.

B: .

Could you just relate what Edwards said to the best.

of your recollection and what you said.

0:

Yes.

He indicated that he had gotten the--the office

had gotten--the

assignment to come up with somebody

or some organization that could take on the assassination of

Fidel Castro, and he thought perhaps Bob Maheu might know

somebody that we could contact or he could contact, and I was

told to talk to Bob, which I did.

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B :

0:

Did Edwards state to you who gave him the

-

assignment?

Well, as far as

I

recall he said it was Bissell.

B:

Did he ever state whether or not the Director of

Central Intelligence, Mr. Dulles, knew

about the

matter?

0:

Yes, he did.

B:

And what did he say?

0:

B:

He said it had the approval of Mr. Dulles.

All right.

when such

Do you have any idea approximately

a conversation would have taken place

between you and Edwards?

0:

No.

Not at all.

I say--I think I have or I

have

some sort of material that may give the approximate

dates, but I don't know at this point.

B:

Do you know whether it would have been in 1960 or in

1961?

0:

My guess would be probably 1960, but again I just can't

be sure.

B:

Do you know if it would have been in 1960 if it would

have been in the first part or the last part of 19603

0:

Well, I do recall that I think it was October that I

met: Roselli for the first time, and that was at the

Plaza Hotel in New York, and my guess is it was probably

October 1960, but again

I don't--it could have been 1961.

B:

Al1 right.

Really, what you're saying is that you

nave no exact recollection as to when it was except

your best recollection right now was that it was in the Fall

of 1960.

Is that correct?

0:

That's right.

B :

Now you

mentioned: Roselli. Before we get to MI.

- Roselli, did you

get in touch with

Maheu?

0:

I didn't know *Roselli. Maheu was the man

that con-

tacted

PRoselli.

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B:

All right. After Edwards talked to you to get in

touch with Maheu. Did you get in touch with Maheu?

0:

Yes.

B:

And what did you say to Maheu, and what did he say

to you, if you remember?

0:

Well, I

explained what the project was

all about.

He wasn't particularly happy about taking on the

assignment, primarily, I guess, because he was.getting very

Hughes people and they were demanding a lot

of his time and he didn't feel he could spend too much time

also recognize the fact that we had in

the past subsidized him, and he felt that he owed us the

-he was committed to a

degree, and he took it on on that

basis.

B:

And then what happened?

0:

Well, he said he knew a fellow out in Las Vegas,

because at that point that's where Hughes was operat-

He didn't know his background but he figured he

must be somewhere involved with organized groups out there

because he--as he understood it he had the ice machine con-

cession of all the casinos out there, and he identified him

as a fellow by the name of "Roselli. I met Roselli--he came

in to New York--

(End of tape 1, begin tape 2)

B :

Now you mention that you met Roselli in New York.

Was

that pursuant to a pre-arranged plan with Maheu?

0;

That's correct.

He asked "Roselli to come to New

York and that he had something he wanted to talk with

him about.

I was introduced to.: Roselli as an associate of

Bob Maheu--the discussion pretty much on the basis of Maheu

having several international clients who had interests down

in Cuba.

They were concerned about losing their investments,

and they were pooling together a sum of money

that they could

offer if

somebody could eliminate Fidel Castro. Initially

Roselli didn't want any part of it.

We did appeal to him

on the basis that this was in the best interest of national

security--at that time of course we were aware of the fact

that the Cubans--the Russians were bringing in missiles, and

so forth and that they were threatening the country.

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B:

Wells et me backtrack a minute he cuieve missile

said that

you left for the Far East in

June of 1962, but of

course,

did

you mean that this conversation took place when

the Soviets were

they had Soviet influence there?

bringing missiles in there, or just that

0:

It was the Soviet influence.

I now withdraw that

because I guess we really didn't know that there

were missile there but we knew there was a potential for

it

there.

B :

Were you introduced as being a person fron the CIA?

0 :

No, I was introduced as being an associate of Bob

Maheu-who worked for Bob Maheu.

B:

And what name did you use?

0:

B :

0:

At that time I used my true name, O'Connell.

When you met with Roselli for the first time?

Right.

B :

All right, then what happened?

0:

Well, he eventually decided he would try to help us

but he made it quite clear, if it was in the interest

of national security and so forth, that he would do it.

He

didn't want to do it for any compensation - he never did

take any money, pald his. own way, not only his hotel fees,

but

he also pald for his air flights and so forth and

SO

on.

I don't think that I was fooling him, I think he knew

who

I was.

B:

You mean by that that you were a CIA agent?

0 :

That's right.

B :

Did you ever mention any particular sum involved

that might be paid?

0:

Yes, we said that this syndicate, these groups,

were willing to pay I think it was a $100,000.

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B:

0:

B:

It was a figure that you think right now was a

$100.000?

I think it was, right.

It could have been more - it could have been less?

0:

Right.

B:

And when you say this syndicate you are referring

to the ostensible group of international businesses

that supposedly were trying to arrange this? Is that

correct?

0:

Right.

B :

Now, what happened after this conversation?

0:

Well, Bob Mheu and I went down to Miami, we met

Roselli and he was staying at the time at the

Fontainebleau

and he said that he would work out some deal

where he could

get in touch with people in Cuba that could

handle the assignment.

Bob was being pressed by Hughes and

he was sort of commuting back and forth from L.A. to Miami-

subsequently I was sort of left with Roselli as sort of his

hand-holder and Bob was spending more and more time out in

the West Coast.

He did get in touch with these people who

I didn't know who they were, he said that they were types

that had contacts in Cuba and they could handle the assign-

ment.

Eventually I did meet a fellow by the name of Sam

Gold who I later

found out was Sam Giancana.

I didn't

know it at the time.

I met a fellow who was identified as

Joe who was considered a claims courier - I found out he

was Trafficante who was one of the too Mafia ficures

and

this all came out when we

saw their pictures in the Sunday

newspaper.

Up to that point neither Bob Maheu nor myself

knew really who we were dealing with.

B :

Now, do you remember about when this first meeting

in Miami

took place?

Nell, again, I say 1f I met Roselli in October which

I'm just staking as the starting point in uctober

probably sometime in

February of

'61.

'60, it was

B:

Now, at that particular time the Bay of Pigs

operation was being planned. Do you know if there

was any relationship between what you were doing and the

Bay of Pigs operation?

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-citater

0:

As a matter of fact

There was absolutely nonBay of pigs had absolutely

the project handling the

no idea of what

Ne had no

was an entirely separate operation.

B :

The only relationship might have been the fact

that Bissell knew what you were doing and Bissell

was involved with the direction of the Bay of Pigs.

from that relationship you don't know of any other?

Apart

0:

There wasn't any other. Of course, Colonel King,

who was the W.H. Division Chief, naturally was

involved with

the Bay of Pigs project and he knew about

this, but that's where we were cut off.

B :

I believe you said that the knowledge of this

particular project at the time you were involved

was kept to a very few people, is that correct?

0:

That's correct.

B :

Who knew besides you and Colonel Edwards?

0:

Well, starting from the top I assume, I only can

assume, that Mr. Dulles and certainly Mr. Bisseli

because

1 sat in Mr. Bissell's office when we discussed

it so at a later

time, not at the inception of it but I,

at one point, we had sort of a reporting situation where

we brought him up to date on it.

J.C. King

- Colonel

J. C. King, W. H. Division, the Chief of T.S.D. who I

think at the time was

either corney or Archie, I don't know which ons, the

one of the Roosevelts,

people in T.S.D.

at the lower echelon as far as

I know

were never officially briefed on it. There was a Dra

Treicher and a Dr. Gunn, but I don't - they may have known

what was going on but they were not as far as I know ever

officially briefed.

B:

0:

B:

Gunn is G-U-N-N and Treicher is T-R-E-I-C-H-L-È-R

I believe, is that correct?

Right.

Did Banneman Edwards'

assistant know at the time?

0:

No.

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B :

Now, you mentioned T.S.D. how did they get involved?

0:

Well, they got involved in the determining whether

they could come up with some sort of esoteric

materials to

take care of the assignment.

B:

This was rather than using a gun, is that correct?

• 0:

Nead the, I guess this was discussed beyond me.

I don't know.

I think they

thought

that they'd

use something a little bit more exotic than just having

an out-and-out shoot-out. I don't know who made that

decision.

B:

0:

B:

0:

B:

0:

B:

0:

B:

0:

B:

0:

B:

Well, to the best of your knowledge were pills

developed

inside the Technical Services Division?

Yes.

And these were pills designed to poison and kill

someone?

That's right.

Do you know what kind of pills they were? The

technical names that were used for them?

No.

All I know is that it had a very lethal

amount of botulism.

And the pills were supposedly going to dissolve

in liquid.

That's right.

Now,

did you ever obtain any of these pills?

Yes.

And when you got them to whom did you give them?

To :Roselli.

Do you know approximately whether this took place

In 1960 or 1961?

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0:

Again, I'd say it was probably '61 because I have

to

back to the, and if I'm wrong on the starting

date, then I'm going to be wrong on all of my dates.

I

would say it was October

'60 that I first met

'Roselli so

it would have to be

161.

B :

0:

B :

0:

B:

0 :

B:

0:

B:

0:

B :

0:

B:

0:

You said it would have to be in 1961, is that

correct?

I say

if my starting figure is October '60.

Right, now approximately how many pills did you

turn

over, if you remember?

I know - it probably was either three or four..

And where did you get the pills?

They were delivered to me in Colonel Edwards'

office by Dr: Treichler.

Was

Colonel Edwards there?

Yes.

• (End of tape 2, begin tape 3)

When you got the pills in Colonel Edwards office,

then what did you do with them?

Well, I don't know exactly how it came about but

I eventually gave them to Roselli.

And do you know to whom Roselli gave them?

Well, again, I'm a little vague on the sequence, but

I think he eventually turned them over to Sam Gold

as we knew him who in turn turned them over to Juan

Orta but I don't know whether anything in

that chain whether San got it directly from

Roselli or there was some intermediate derson

there or what the sequence was I don't know.

Juan Orta was a person inside Cuba.

As far as I know, yeah.

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You never had any personal knowledge that the pills

actually got there?

NO.

It was hearsay so far as you were concerned?

That's right.

Did anyone tell you the pills were there?

Roselli said that they were delivered into Cuba

but I'm only taking his word.

And Orta was the person that supposedly had access

to Castro?

That was my understanding.

Then what happened to the best of your knowledge?

Well, things dragged

on a bit. I returned to

washington and then we got the word that orta got

cold

feet.

He didn't want to get involved.

The

pills apparently were returned to Gold, back to

Roselli

and to the best of my knowledge - brought

them back to washington and they were kept in the

Agency until they worked up another deal with Tony

Verona.

When you say they worked up another deal, who do

you mean by they?

Roselli

and his people down there.

And what was the substance of the deal with Tony

Verona?

Well, Tony Verona was one of the leaders of the

Junta who became apparently discouraged with

the

way the Agency was handling their operations

down

there.

Was Verona an exile of Cuba?

Yes and he.:.

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B:

He lived in the Miami

‚area?

He lived in Miami and he became disanchanted with-

apparently became impatient with the way the Agency

was handling things and the word was out that he

wanted to start his own little show, and how they

knew that I don't know, but they did and so they

approached Verona and

asked if he would take on

the assignment, which he did with certain stipula

tions.

He wanted

$10,000 worth of gear and an

amount of money, which

I think could vary between

$50 and $100,000, I really don't know:

There was

money involved upon delivery of the assignment.

Did you assist in

getting the gear?

res, we went down - we had a man from our Commo

Division who really didn't know what he was buying

or what was involved but I had to use him as an

expert

not knowing too much about the Commo gear

and we were told specifically what Verona wanted

so we had a shopping list and we went down and this

Commo man bought the equipment.

By Commo, you mean communications?

Communications, right.

And,

that equipment was turned over to Verona?

That was delivered to Verona.

Who delivered it?

Seems to me that, now here's where I get real big.

I'm not so

sure

that this wasn't at the time that

I was turning this whole project over to Bill

Harvey...

Pardon me, go ahead.

Because I remember one of the last things I was

involved in was

turning over some equipment.

Roselli

and I delivered the material.

By material, you mean the pills?

"...

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No.

The equipment?

And I think that was probably the last act I was

involved in.

When did you turn the project over to Bill Harvey,

if you remember?

It would be April of '62, that I can pinpoint that.

Now with regard to Verona, did you turn the pills

over to Verona too?

No.

As far as I know, I didn't.

Well, you mentioned in our interview that there was

then going to be a chef who was going to put the

pills in Castro's beverages at a restaurant?

Yes, well that was before Harvey got involved as

I recall.

We brought back the pills the second

time.

This should be somewhere in here, we're

getting a little beyona

our story at this point.

Well, let me go back - the first stage was to

deliver some pills to Juan Orta who supposedly

had access to Castro, is that correct?

That's right.

And then Orta either lost the access or in your

phrase "got cold feet" and the pills were delivered

Right.

Then were they redelivered again?

They were redelivered again because they had this

new asset or somebody that had access to the kitchen

where Castro used to frequent • the restaurant.

By access supposedly a chef or someone.

A chef, yes, I would assume.

* Please refer to the attached memorandum dated 20 June 1975.

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You don't know whether

waitress?

it was a chef or waiter or

I can't be sure.

And, then what happened so far as the delivery of

the pills the second time?

This again I'm very vague, I have a recollection

and I may be wrong.

I think we got the pills back

again and

. I think when I left the pills were back

at headquarters.

So, what happened is that either. the person didn't

nave access in the restaurant or if the person did

have access

Castro stopped frequenting the restaurant

I

assume it was one of those two possibiliites.

I don't know.

You don't know whether it was either one of those?

Well, the pills eventually got back and some time

after they got back and you aren't quite sure of

these dates, but you do know that eventually you

turned the whole matter over to Bill Harvey, is

that correct?

In April of '62, that is something I can say with

quite

a bit of positiveness.

And then Bill Harvey became Roselli's case officer,

is that correct?

Right.

Now, do you believe that before you turned the

matter over to Harvey that

Roselli knew that you

were a CIA employee?

He told me he knew.

I never admitted it, but he

knew. He told me

SO.

I think you said he referred to you as "Big Jim?"

That's right.

And that at times he introduced you not under your

correct name, is that correct?

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When he introduced me to his friends the name

Olds was used.

By his friends do you mean Sam...

Sam and Trafficante and -I only met them on two

occasions.

Do you know where that was?

Yes, first time I met them was

in a clothing store

which obviously was one of their headquarters. It

was down on Miami Beach.

I don't know what street

It was but it was a sort of an arcade type thing

and he wanted to buy me

a shirt.

He said I looked

a little seedy which, of course as government

employees, you know,

well.

sometimes you don't dress that

But, anyway, he insisted on buying me a shirt

but we went into this place, which I thought was

just walking off

the street, and in there we met

all his friends.

They had a big office in the back.

But I couldn't

tell you what street it was or where

it was. It

was in Miami Beach.

Would this have been in the first part of '61?

I don't know.

It was during the winter of 1960-61?

Probably.

When was the second time you met the people?

I met them at the Fontainebleau, Bob Maheu, and

Johnnie

and I went to dinner there one night and

we ran into Sam - Sam Gold (Giancanno). It was

just a shake-hand type of thing.

We didn't spend

much time with

That's the only two times I've

ever met the man.

Do you know when that second occassion was,

approximately?

No.

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Was it before or after the delivery of the pills to

Roselli?

I don't know.

I really don't.

How did you find out Sam Gold was Giancanno?

Well, as I explained the first time we knew that

was

when

we saw his picture in the supplement of

Parade, it was a Sunday supplement in the Miami

newspaper and they had the ten

most wanted men on

the Attorney General's list and we saw Trafficante

and

Giancanno's picture.

I was in one hotel...

Go ahead, we have another 30 seconds on this tape.

I was in one hotel, Bob Maheu was in the other - he

spotted it before I did.

He called me and said, do

you know who we're

dealing with? And that's the

first time we knew.

Do you think that's the first time Maheu knew also?

Absolutely.

lend of tape

3, begin tape 4)

Now Mr. O'Connell, were there any other attempts

to assassinate Castro that vou know of other than

these involving the delivery of the pills?

Not to my knowledge. No.

Were there any other attempts to assassinate anyone

else

that you know of?

I don't know of any other.

To your own personal knowledge, did you have any

information as to whether or not any people outside

of the Agency, such as people in the White House,

knew of

chis project while it was going on?

As far as I know, I have no information along that

line.

Now,

we also discussed prior to this recording of

the interview an

incident that happened out of Las

Vegas concerning. Sam Gold

and a wiretap.

would you

please relate that to the best of your information

or recollection?

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Yeah.

Bob got a call from Sam saying that he was

disturbed from reports he was getting from las

Vegas that his girlfriend, who is Phyliss MeGuire,

Dan Rowan, who they were

night clubs

there.

And he was going to go back to Las Vegas

to straighten this thing out to his satisfaction.

This would have interuppted the project at a very

critical time and the only alternative was if Bob

would run a tap on Rowan's

room to determine what

was going on. ' I say Rowan's room, it may have been

McGuire's room, I'm not sure one way or another.

But in any event this was one of the conditions

that he would stay on and continue on the project.

Maheu told him that he did not have the facilities

or the assets to do such a thing but when Gold said

that he was going to leave, Bob agreed to get

somebody to do the job and he got a former friend,

or an FBI-former FBI man that he knew in Miami to

send a crew out and they did, in effect, instead of

bugging. the room they bugged

the telephone, which

was not what they were supposed to do and they

eventually were caught.

Now this resulted in some disclosures that had to be

made

to the FBI or Department of Justice as I under-

stand it, is that correct?

As I understand it, that is correct. It occurred

while I was out of

the country.

You mean the meeting with the Attorney General?

That's right.

Do you know whether or not the request for help

trom Sam Gold came at a time that you were in the

process o trying to get the pills delivered over

there to Cuba?

Well, it certainly must of been because as I recall

it was a

critical time and so I can just put things

together.

I assume that that was when we were

trying to do it.

And so basically again you stated you aren't quite

sure of dates but if your original

date of October

1960 of your first conversations with Roselli are

correct,

this would have placed the Sam Gold

incident sometime in the

first part of 1961, so far

as the Phyliss McGuire bugging, is that

correct?

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I. could have been, I couldn't be sure. It could

have

been later than that.

Okay.

Now, I've asked you whether of not you know

of any CIA files on this matter and I wish you

would respond to that for the record.

-Well, as I mentioned to you it was a very closely

held

project.

There was nothing as far as formal

files

were concerned.

I did periodically write

memoranda

for the record. I don't know where

they are now.

They were at one time kept in Howard

Osborn's office.

I assume thev're still there ne mashe

they've been destroyed.

I don't know,

I have no

access to them.

Any other facts that you might want to add that

you think

might in any way be relevant to our

inquiries

here?

I don't have any.

Any other facts which relate in any manner whatsoever

Any other legete

alleged assassination plots against Castro?

No, this

is

the only - as I say, I was assigned

as case officer to Bob Maheu. I

got my instrue-

tions

and I contacted Bob and my involvement was

as I stated right now, that's about it.

1r. O'Connell, John Mccone took over

the position

is Director of Central Intelligence in late 1961.

do you have any knowledge as to whether or not he

was ever briefed about this project?

I don't - his name never came up. All I know is

that Mr. Dulles was aware of it. Mr. McCone's

name never came up.

You went over to the Far East in June of 1962,

when did you come back to the country then?

I came back in July of 1965.

Do you hear any information as to what took place

with the project after you turned Roselli over

to Harvey?

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I never have, I don't think I ever met Harvey

of saw Harvey from the time

Roselli

over.

I did see

Roselll once.

We had a social luncheon

but nothing was ever discussed. I have no idea

what transpired after I left.

When was that social luncheon, approximately, if

you remember?

Probably sometime in 1966.

Anything else you can think of that might in any

way be relevent to the inquiries of this Commission:

I don't have anything.

I have one more question, Mr. O'Connell. You

indicated that you knew the people that you quently

be dealing with, at least

Sam Gold, might

be what you called in an interview

"tough guys" or "Mobsters" but when you first met

them did you know that they were involved with the

Mafia.

No, we had no idea. Maybe we should have but we,

neither Bob Maheu or myself were aware that they

were in the Mafia

and

that came out eventually by

seeing

a Miam their

pictures in the Parade supplement in

newspaper

and that's the first time we knew

we were dealing with Sam Giancanno

and a fellow, I

forget his first name, trafficante who we knew under

a different name.

And, after you knew that"

these people were Mafia

people, did that change your plans at all?

well, at that point it was sort of beyond doing

anything me could change.

We were into this thing

so deeply we figured we

may as well go along but

we were both a little bit, quite a bit, surprised

that who we were

dealing with.

Anything else that you wish to add?

No.

Thank you very much for coming sir.

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