Originator: HSCA
Document date: 4/6/78
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/8/201,

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10117-10137

RECORD SERIES: NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER:

014673

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: HSCA

FROM:

TO:

TITLE:

DATE :

04/06/1978

PAGES:

33

SUBJECTS :

CIA

RUSSIA

MEXICO CITY

HSCA; METHODOLOGY

DOCUMENT TYPE :

TRANSCIPT

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS : Open in Full

CURRENT STATUS : Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

08/17/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS:

MLK material withdrawn pp. 21-28.

Box 274.

DoDId: 32266912

Page

---

## Page 2

Stenographic Transcript Of

HEARINGS

Before The

014673

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EXECUTIVE SESSION

Washington,D.C.

April 6, 1978

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc.

Official Réporters

300 Seventh Sur SW Washington. D.C.

554-2345

DocIl 32266912 Paqe 2

---

## Page 3

1-1

2

3

5

EXECUTIVE SESSION

CONSIDERATION OF AN AMENDMENT TO THE RULES

OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

WEDNESDAY

April 6,1978

-APRIL 5, 1978-

-

House of Representatives,

Select Committee on

Assassinations,

washington, D. C.

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

15

ló

17.

18

19

20

23

24

• 25

The committee met, pursuant to notice at d:00 .f.m., in

room 304 of the Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Louis

Stokes, chairman of the committee, presiding.

Present: Representatives Stokes (presiding), Preyer,

Pauntroy, Dodd, Ford, Fithian, Edgar, Dévine and Sawyer.

Present also: G. Röbert Blakey, Chief Counsel and

Director; Gary Cornwell, Deputy Chief Counsel; I. C. Mathews,

Special Counsel; William Cross, Security Officer; Elizabeth

Berning, Chief Clerk; and Marion Wills, Deputy Chief Clerk.

Chairman Stokes. A quorum of the committee being present

at this time, the committee is called to order. I recognize

Mr. Blakey for a statement with reference to this.

Mr. Blakey. There are several matters that could be.

brought up. One of them, I suppose, technically shoula be

considered in public session about the deals with the change

DocId: 32266912 Pagel

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 4

1--3.

5

( 202)

REPORTERS BUILDING,

HASHINGTON,

13

300 PTH STREET,

Mr. Ford. Aye.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Aye.

Berning. Mr. Eogar.

Mr. Edgar. Aye.

Mrs. Berning. There are nine ayes, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Stokes. Nine members having voted in the

affirmative, this meeting is now declared in executive session

and all members of the public are asked to excuse themselves

from the room.

MI. Blakey. Let me see if I can

present the problem to

as succinctly as

I can, although perhaps I should begin

with an apology to the committee for bringing about a meeting

of the full committee on such short notice.

Obviously, there has been'

a recess and some of the

membership has been gone for the last week and this is really

first opportunity that we have had.

The problem has come up during the

recess in our efforts

to work with the Central Intelligence Agency in preparing

hearings. The problem really goes as follows: In the central

case study is the Mexico City issue. .

The Agency has given us

complete access to everything in this area and this includes

the nature of the surveillance that the Agency had of the

Russian and Cuban Embassies.

They had photographic and electronic surveillance of both

24

25.

DocId: 32266912 Pagel 4

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

---

## Page 5

1-2

2

3

$

7

REPORTERS BUILDING,.

WASHINGTON,

D.C.

20024

10

11

12

13

14

15

1ó

17.

•19

•20

21

22

23

24

•25

in the rules. Nevertheless, the reasons for the change in the

rules goes to the heart of the nature of our current

investigation and conseguently, I think it would be

appropriate for a motion to be made to close the meeting.

Chairman Stokes. The chair will entertain such a motion

Mr. Fauntroy. I so move.

Chairman Stokes. It is moved that the meeting go

into

executive session.

The clerk will call the roll.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. Stokes.

Chairman Stokes. Aye.

Mrs. Berning.

Mr. Devine.

Mr. Devine. Aye.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer.

Aye.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. McKinney.

(There was no response.)

Mrs. Berning.

Mr. Fauntroy.

MI. Fauntroy. Aye...

Mrs. Berning.

Mrs. Burke.

(There was no response.)

Mrs. Berning.

Mr. Sawyer.

Mr. Sawyer. Aye.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. Dodd.

Mr. Dodd. Aye.

Mrs. Berning,

Mr. Ford.

DocId: 32266912 Pagel 5

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 6

1-4

2

3

5

REPORTERS BUILDING, HASHINGTON,

D.C. 20024

(202)

7

8

ITH STREET

10

!

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

23

24

25

places. This covered

the crucial periods of time, more or

less, and that is a big question, more or less. And I now

have to say that the

person alleged to have been

Oswald went

in the embassy.

Nevertheless, the Agency never came up with a photograph

of Oswald coming in and out of the Agency. Indeed they sent

back up to washington the wrong photograph. This has given

rise to the whole problem of the mysterious plan.

The significance of the issue of the investigation

literally speaks for itself. If Oswald did not go in and

apply for that visa, and someone else did, then it is obvious

that Oswald had an associate. If he had an associate, the

single assassin theory is in real serious trouble.

What we need to do is to pursue in our hearings for your

benefit our ability to understand what went on down in Mexico

We have witnesses scheduled for the hearings and we now asked

the Central Intelligence Agency to make available to us those

materials dealing with the surveillance, which are hill-sensit

tive and they go right to the heart of sensitive sources and

methods. But the Agency prefers not to disclose them.

Now, they have no objection to the staff looking at them

and they frankly have no objection to this committee looking

at

them and they have no objection to us, at least in dealing

with Agency employees, using or pursuing these matters in

the

hearings, but then they say to us the following:: "But what do

DocId/32266912 Fagel 6

ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

---

## Page 7

1 5.

2

3

HASHINGTON, D.C.

20024

(202) 554-2345

5

10

12

3

14

15

REPORTERS

=

in

17

18

19

20

21

23

24

25

you do about Rule 11?"

Rule ll of the House says that all committee

documents

are property of the House and as such all members of the House

have access to them.

We say, well, our response to them is a$

follows:

"What do you want me to do about the rules öf the

House of Representatives? I cannot change them."

Ana their response is: "well, why don't you adopt,

meaning the committee adopt, a rule that looks like the House

Intelligence Committee's rule on member access?"

So, we looked at that very carefully and the rule of the

House Intelligence Committee provides roughly as follows:

Members can have access to documents in the posession of the

House Intelligence Committee under terms and conditions

set

forth by the House Intelligence Committee up to and including

denial of access. That is, we can set out the exact language

for you but the House Intelligence Committee's rule explicitly

authorizes the House Intelligence Committèe to deny access to

a

member.

And I said, or our response to the Agency is as follows:

"You cannot seriously expect me to suggest to my committee the

adoption of a rule that is on its face inconsistent with Rule

11, can you?"

And they said, "Yes, we know that it is inconsistent but

it you give us at least as much protection as the House

Intelligence Committee gives us, we would hve no problem.

with

DocId: 32266912 Page

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 8

1-6

2

3

5

REPORTERS BUILDING,

HASHINGTON, D.

C. 20024 (202)

8

9

10

12

13

14

17.

:18

19

20

21

22

23

24

turning it over to you."

My response is that "I cannot do that."

I cannot suggest to this committee that you adopt a rule

that is on its face inconsistent with Rule 1l. The House

Rule, after all--I am talking as a lawyer, your lawyer I

guess--the rules of the House are

explicit. The rules of this

committee are explicit. The resolution of this committee

explicitly says

that your rules must be consistent with the

rules of the House.

So, I cannot suggest to you a rule like that rule of the

House Intelligence Committee.

I played around with language with Jim wolfe and we came

up with the following suggestion that may meet the needs of

the Central Intelligence Agency. The rule does not deny

access to any member but it conditions that access to the

time, place and manner by the following procedure:..

That a

member would have to request access in writing and the request

would be taken up by the full committee and, if the full

committee voted to give the member access, he would get it

then and there and, if the committee decided that under the

circumstances the committee member or the members should not

have access, it would cause the question to be taken back up

on the House Floor.

Of course, if the House Floor in effect reaffirms Rule l

in this case, then our rules would permit the member to have

ALGERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32266912 Page

---

## Page 9

1-7

2

3

5

in

REPORTERS

LDING

HASHINGTON,

D. C.:

20024

9

10

!1

12

13

14

15

17

18

19

20

23

24

25

access. If the House Floor says that the members should not

nave access, then of course it would be the resolution of the

Floor that would deny the member access and not our own rules

Basically, what it would do is that it would cause the

House of Representatives to take a second look at the scope

and impact of Rule 11, not as an abstract question of

principle, but as a concrete instance

where if what the member

wanted access to was something that could be fairly described

as the "family jewels," then it would be the burden of the

full committee to say that it is too risky to turn over this

material to this member.

It would then provide a mechanism for transferring that

decision to the Full House Floor and the Full House Floor

would then be in a posture of debating the issue in the

concrete context, that is, the specific request of a specific

member to see a specific document, and you could bring to the

attention of the House the nature of that document without

actually revealing it.

If, of course, the House votes to reaffirm Rule: ll in

this instance, access would be granted. It is my judgment

that the Agency would buy this rule as giving them the maximum

protection of the disclosure, or the routine and automatic

disclosure of the more sensitive methods, to 435 people simply

on

request.

The choices are hara. If we do not adopt it, I think the

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANŸ. INC.

DocId: 32266912 Page 9

---

## Page 10

1-8

2

3

HASHINGTON, D.C.

20024 (202) 554-2385

8

9

10

REPORTERS

• 12

13

14

15

Agency simply will not permit us to explore sensitive sources

and methods like the Mexico issue in our hearings and the only

way we will get the information out of the Agency is by a very

sensitive declassification process in the Agency fiist. We

need to have the information over here to work with it.

If we bring it over here to work with it and cannot give

them some protection in the context of Rule 11, they will not

give it to us. That is the ailemma you are in.

I am prepared to discuss with you the exact language of

Rule 11 and the exact language of the Intelligence Committee'$

rule, and Mrs. Berning has for you the text of the rule

change.

Mr. Sawyer. Would it be feasible to enter into an

agreement with the Agency that gave them the right to recall

at any time they want the documents covered by the agrement,

if they were advised that there was now a request to review

them, we would get a binding agreement and give it back to

them?

7T1 STREET,

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Mr. Blakey. We discussed that with them and the kind of

feeling that they had, and that we had, was that once they

give us the documents to work with over here, including our

own

transcripts--in other words, if we have a closed order

examination of an Agency employee over what was going on in

Mexico, it is hard to argue that our transcript of that.

hearing is a document that they gave to us and they can

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32266912 Page

10

---

## Page 11

1-9

1

2

3

7

8

REPORTERS. BUILDING,

10

!

12

13

14

15

17

18

19

: 20

21

22

23

24

25

recall. And I think we just have to bite the bullet and say

that once we put it in our hearings, it is ours.

Then Rule ll is explicit that what is ours belongs to the

House and that is every member of the House.

We tried that, Mr. Sawyer.

Mr. Sawyer. I just threw it out.

Mr. Fithian. well, then, Eob, what you are saying is

that if we get a document that shows

some very, very sensitive

aspects of surveillance and we make that a part of our record,

when we get ready to fold up shop, in our records is this

document where we require the maximum security, and the

inability then of the Assassination Committee to make:

available to the public our record falls seriously into

question first.

Mr. Blakey. I think that is true. There are certain

things, and in other words when we are dealing with

what

happened in the assassination, everything cannot be made

public. If we begin dealing with the way in which certain

things were learned, I think we have to recognize that that

probably, unless we can convince the Executive Department to

in effect declassify it, it will not come out.

Mr. Fithian. It will not what?

Mr. Blakey. It will not be made public.

Mr. Fithian. What physically happens to it then?

Mr. Blakey. Well, it would be part of our record and it

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

DocId: 32266912 Pagé

11

---

## Page 12

1-10

2

3

5

6

20024 (202)

8

HASHINGTON,

10

12

13

S

REPORTERS

15

17

18

19

20

will be in effect classified in our records and our records

will probably be turned over to--I suspect the best repository

would be the House Intelligence Committee.

For example, the Agency had a surveillance on the Russian

Embassy, that is a wire tap, and the physical surveilance, a

photographing surveillance, a sensitive surveillance to the

highest degree, and it poses potential problems for the

existing Mexican Government.

Mr. Fithian.

I am in full support of the proposition and

I want to see, once you go back to cornell and we go back to

our committees, what actually happens to that?

Mr. Blakey. Those documents will go to the Intelligence

Committee who will look them up like the other documents that

they have. The other answer is, to the degree that a

question comes up, who was the person who applied for the visa

application in Mexico City, and can we believe what the Agency

tells us, which calls immediately into question the nature of

their surveillance, the wire taps and the photographs and as

we can talk in a minute about what came out in Cuba.

The Cuban Government has provided to us as a witness

the

man who filled out the visa application.

Mr. Devine. Those are free from the Freedom of

Information Act, and they are in the custody. of

the

Intelligence Committee?

Mr. Blakey. Because it is in the possession of Congress

24

25

DocId: 32266912 Page 12

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC..

---

## Page 13

REPORTERS BUILDING

HASHINCTON, D.C.

DocId: 32266912

1-11

2

3

5

7

10

!1

12

13

14

1.

ló:

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

which is exempted from that. The witness given to us. in

Mexico, who was in Mexico at the time, says that his memory is

that the person who filled out the application was not

the

same

person who Jack Ruby shot in Dallas.

Now, there is a lot of corroboration that we have to do

and verification of that, and he gave it as his best memory

and "I am not saying this is what happened, but it is my

memory of what happened; the person who dealt with me, is not

the person that I remember," and the ages were different

and

the weights were different and the heights were different and

the facial

shape was different.

If there were two people in Mexico City, one of which was

Oswald and one which was not, there were two people for a

conspiracy.

whatever else we have seriously undermined, if we believe

that testimony we have undermined the single assassin theory.

so, it is right at the heart of what we have to do now, to get

access and be able to use the photographs. the Agency took of

the people who walked in and out of the building.

For us to get it, they have to either declassify it or

they have to give it to us in such a way that they are

reasonably assured that some exercise of discretion will be

made before every member of the House gets immediate access ta

it.

Mr. Fauntroy. I have two questions. It is my

Pagell 13

- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

---

## Page 14

1-12

2

3

20024

(202)

554-2345

7

12

13

REPORTERS

15

lá

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

23

understanding that CIA is willing to risk a Floor procedure?

Mr. BLaKey. Yes.

Mr. Fauntroy. My second question, therefore, is: How ¿o

you distinguish the House Intelligence Committee and its rules

from that of our Select Committee?

Mr. Blakey. Well, I think the House Intelligence

Committee rule is in opposition to Rule 11. They have adopted

a rule in contradiction to the Rules of the House.: As a

lawyer, I say tat and I cannot suggest to you that you adopt

their rule. Their rule explicitly says that the House

Intelligence Committee can deny you access to a document in

their possession.

Rule ll of the House says that if it is in possession,

they can condition your access, time place and manner but this

cannot deny it.

Mr. Fauntroy. My only concern, Mr. Chairman,:

therefore

is that we get access. Now, if we can get access

through this

means, that is fine. but if we cannot, if the Höuse

Intelligence Committee can do it, for the sake of

our mandate,

I have no objection to adopting their rule.

Mr. Sawyer. That is the way I feel about it, too.

Chairman Stokes. Do we have a copy of the House

Intelligence Committee Rule?

Mr. Fithian. May I come in here? I am not the careful

stickler on this, Mr. Blakey, but it would seem to me that we

DocId: 32266912 Page| 14

---

## Page 15

1-13

2.

3

5

7

8

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024

10

2.0

7TW STREET,

312

13

-14

15

Tớ

17

18

419

20

21

22

23

24

25

might be able to adopt a rule just simply saying that in the

handling and for security purposes in the handling of

documents from the Intelligence Committee, they shall be

handled in accordance with the Intelligence Committee rules

for the House of Representatives.

Mr. Blakey. Of course, then you go and read that and you

go to Rule 1l and Rule ll controls the detail.

Mr. Dodd. Could I ask one question there? I am

concerned about really one aspect of this. I would like to

see us do whatever can be done to gain access immediately to

this information. My real concern comes here, that all of us

here have made a pledge that at the conclusion of these

hearings next year, that we would make public all and any

information that helped us arrive at the results we have.

that information would be available to the public.

And

•I am torn, myself, over the desire to get at this, and

then faced with the dilemma of having to renege on a

commitment that we felt was important. I do not think we

anticipated this kind of a thing facing us, and that is my

principal concern at that particular juncture.

Mr. Blakey. The issue arises like this.:

The process

that we have been going through is a two-step process.,

First

it is access and second it is disclosure. When it comes time

to write the final report, suppose we wanted to tell the

American people about Oswald in Mexico, and the only way to da

DocId: 32266912

Pagel:15

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 16

1-14

3

5

8

10

12

13

MUTT

303100038

17

20

it is to tell them about the photographs and the wire taps.

We have been right up front with the Agency and to say "You

guys may have to bite the bullet when we get down to the end,

the nature of the surveillance goes to the heart of the

information and we cannot make a conclusion without indicating

the heart of the information, and at that time we will make

the appropriate request of you for not access but disclosure."

And the Agency says, "Well, we recognize that problem and!

we will see if we cannot develop words that let us disclose

enough in the final report to protect our sensitive sources

and

methods."

Mr. Doad. 'What you are telling me is that we are not

being asked at this juncture to make a commitment as to what

ultimately

we will do with the information at the time we make

the final report.

Mr. Blakey. Yes, the agreement reserves all

Constitutional rights to both sides at the final stage.

the Agency, that is disclosure. The only question now is

With

access.

If we need it to tell the American people, I think we

fight for disclosure.

Chairman Stokes. Having read the Intelligence

Committee's provision, you are lucky if CIA is willing to take

this provision here that you have drafted, because this is not

anywhere near as stringent as the one of the Intelligence

23

24

25.

DocId: 32266912 Page 16

ALDERSON REPORTING COMFANY. INC

---

## Page 17

1-15

2

3

7

10

12

13

14

5

• 15

17.

18

20

Committee.

I am

Mr. Blakey. The Intelligence Committee actually says, and

reading now from subparagraph 2, when it says, "Such

action as the committee may take including but not limited

to

approving the request in whole or in part or denying the

reguest."

How can the House Intelligence Committee deny the request

when you have Rule l1 which is explicit and it says and I

quote now from Rule 1l, "All members of the House shall have

access thereto." It is explicit.

Our resolution says our rules have to be consistent with

the rules of the house and the rules of the house do not leave

any: if's and's or but's. But the requested rule is that it

brings into operation the Floor of the House prior to the

members access and thus they will take their chances on the

Floor of the House denying a member access, if we think it is

worth fighting over.

Mr. Fauntroy. And your fear is that were we to operate

under this rule that we would run the risk of being overruled

by the House and

there we would have to give it.

Mr. Blakey. But the Agency says they are willing to risk!

a

Floor confrontation over an individual access

and if they

lose that, they lose. But they are unwilling to run the risk

of having the

decision automatically flow from the rule of the

House itself.

23

•24

25

DocId: 32266912 Page 17

ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

---

## Page 18

1-16

2

3

30024 (202) 554-2145

5

6

7

9

MACHINCTON,

!!

12

3

REPORTERS

15

Mr. Preyer. You do not want to release it because the

man's conscience tells him that this should be made available

to the public. I think at least they have a crack

at that

public opinion mob elicited by them.

Mr. Blakey. And I would say in a routine matter that the

rule ought to be

absolutely construed in favor of a member's

access.

There is very little over there now that could not be

turned over to every single member of the House, if he was

adeguately briefed before hand, but the deeper we get into

some of this, the more sensitive it becomes and the more it is

depending on who makes the request and what he announces

before he makes the request, which you might want

to

reconsider.

Mr. Preyer. When he makes the reguest to the committee,

we would have the right to impose conditions on access at that

time?

17

18

19

20

Mr. Blakey. Our rules now provide a very stringent

situation, only he, and only written, and only in a designated

room and no notes taken, and of course subseguent disclosure

is a violation unless he does it with your majority opinion.

In other words, he cannot come in and look at something

and

then disclose it against the will of the full committee

publically and all he can get is access to it.: But I think

that they have a fear that the ethical violation by a member

23

24

25

DocId: 32266912

Page 18

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 19

1-17

3

5

6

7

9

10

12

13

S

17.

18

19

20

of not living up to your majority rule might not be

sufficient deterrent to the disclosure.

Chairman Stokes. I have a question and maybe Jim wolfe

is

the proper person to answer the question, büt each time we

amend the rules, do we then again republish our

rules?

Mr. Wolfe. All we have to do is add an amendment to the

end, and we now have our pamphlet with one glued amendment on

it and

we will have to glue the new amendment

on at the end

and we will not have to republish them.

Chairman Stokes. Also previously--and I do not know

whether it is required by the House Rules or

not--but we did

put our rules into the Congressional Record, and are

amendments required?

MI. Wolfe.

Not necessarily. I do not think we are

necessarily required, and they are public in the sense that

every person who gets a copy of our rules will get a copy of

this provision with it.

Chairman Stokes. What about House members?

Mr. Wolfe. If the House member wants access, it has

not

happened yet, bit they have asked us sometimes on the phone

how to do it, and we would send them a copy of the rules and

the rule dealing with access would be at the end. In the same

way the Intelligence Committee's rules are public, our rules

obviously would be public.

Chairman Stokes. Are there any further questions?

"If

23

24

25

DocId:32266912 Page

19

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

---

## Page 20

1-18

2

3

(202). 554-2345

7

• 8

10

11

12

13

REFORTERS

ini

15

17

18

19

20.

21

22

23

24

25

DocId: 32266912 Page 20

not, the chair will entertain a motion.

Mr. Preyer. I move the adoption of this rule amendment,

Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Stokes. It has been properly moved that the

rules of the committee be amended as per the rules amenament

now before the members. The amendment is as follows:

13.11. Members who desire access to restricted.

including classified and confidential, or sensitive.

information that has in addition been designated by the

Chairman

as primary information, shall be required to request

such access in writing to the Committee. Each

such request by

a member must be considered by the committee, a majority being

present, at the

earliest opportunity.

The committee may, by record vote, grant the member's

request. If the member's request is not granted, the

committee shall forward the member's reguest, together with a

recommendation anã report of the committee, to the House. If

the committee did not grant the member's request, the member

shall have access to the primary information only subseguent

to a determination by the House that the member's request

should be granted.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. Stokes.

Chairman Stokes. Aye.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. Devine.

Mr. Devine. Aye.

Full Commigree Exhib, i * 16.

"entered as

see Hipg.—

-.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

---

## Page 21

1-19

2

3

=

REPORTERS BUILDING, MASHTNOTON,

0. C. 20024 (202)

554-294.5

.19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Mrs. Berning. Mo. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer. Aye.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. McKinney.

Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy.

Mrs. Berning.

Mr .

Fauntroy.

Mr. Fauntroy. Aye.

Mrs. Berning.

Mr. Thone.

«There was no response.)

Mrs. Berning. Mrs. Burke.

(There was no response.)

Mrs. Berning.

Mr. Dodd.

Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy.

Mrs. Berning.

Mr. Ford.

Mr. Ford. Aye.

MIS. Berning.

Mr . Fithian.

MI. Fithian. Aye.

Mrs. Berning. Mr. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar. Aye.

Mrs. Berning. There are ten "ayes," Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Stokes.

Ten members having voted in the

affirmative, the rules amendment is adopted.

Mr. Blakey. There is one other matter which it may be -

appropriate to raise, particularly while everybody is here.

It is a very sensitive matter, and we ought to get some feel

from it.

DooId: 32266912

Page:

21'

ALDERSON REPORTING CEMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 22

1-20

2

3

7

MACHINCTON, D.С. 20024

9

10

11

1.2

13

REPORTERS

19

16

17

19

20

21

You will recall while we were in Cuba, Mr. Chairman, we

discussed on the beach one issue and this deals with an issue

that is important. The Central Intelligence Agency suggested

the only way we could have conversations in private was to

stand on the beach and face the United States, that is out to

the ocean.

So, at certain times we went to the beach and faced the

ocean to have conversations.

Chairman

Stokes. I am glad that you clarified that. you

can get the wrong impression.

MI. Fauntroy. I was about to become very disgusted with

that and the rested look that you had when you returned.

MI. Blakey. The tan covers the bags under my eyes •

Chairman Stokes. While he was watching the United

States, you saw the latest maneuvers of the latest MIG fighter

200 yards off the beach.

Mr. Blakey. It was 200 yards.

Chairman Stokes. It was some display of its agility.

MI. Edgar. Did they know you were there?

Chairman Stokes. Yes.

Mr. Blakey. The issue raises as follows:

our rules are

explicit for no electronic surveillance and by that I mean not

even the wire tapping which is obviously beyond the pale, but

no central recording either.

As all of you now know, there are two informänts in the

23

24

25

DocId: 32266912 Pagel

• 22

MINGSAN SEPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 23

RG: 233

ENTRY:

BOX:

TAB #:

COPIES/ PPS. /CLASS.

11710/37

014678

pp. 21-28

ACCESS RESTRICTED

The item identified below has been withdrawn from this file:

File Designation

Date

From

• To

In the review of this file this item was removed because access to itris

restricted.

Restrictions on records in the National Archives are stated

in generaland specific record group restriction statements which are

available for examination. The item identified above has been withdrawn

because" it contains:

WITHDRAWAL NOTICE

Security-Classified Information

Otherwise Restricted Information

MLK

Authority

08/22/93

Date

Withdrawn by NSCA

John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992 (P.L: 102-526)

NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION

NA FORM 14000 11 86)

DocId: 32266912 Page 23

---

## Page 24

1-29

2

3

5

7

₴

07

REPORTERS

BUI

IDI

WASHINGTON,

10

11.

12

13

15.

1ó

17

19

20

Mr. Blakey. The Supreme Court has decided a case on this

and they have set up the rules that should be followed in this

kind of a situation and it would be possible for us to follow

those rules and not invade the attorney-client privilege.

Chairman Stokes. I was aware of that general principle.

Mr. Edgar. Given the information that we have so far, I

think we ought to put this in our thinking and think about it

very seriously before we get involved in any kind of action at

this point. So, I would suggest

taht we mill it over in our

minds and keep it within the committee structure and deal with

it at some future time, because I think that there are some

very, very serious questions.:

Mr. Blakey. They are extremely serious, no matter what

decision you take.

Mr. Edgar.. If I would have an opportunity to vote now,

would vote "no."

Mr. Blakey. Whatever decision you make you run

risks and

it is not something tat has to be decided today, but it is

something that has to be decided next week.

Chairman Stokes

• I think the gentleman is absolutely

right, that this is something that the committee needs to

think about, and have further dialogue with one another on;

and then we can entertain it at some later date.

a

Mr. Edgar. Before we adjourn, I would like to reiterate

comment I made to you, that it seems to me it would be

23

24

25

DocId: 32266912 Page 24

ALDEASON REPORTING COMPANY. INC

---

## Page 25

1-30

2

3

5

7

9

10

REPORTERS

BULL DING, WASHINGTON,

helpful in the next week or two to have at least an hour

meeting of our committee to bring together all of us to get a

summary report of where we are in terms of status with each of

the investigations, the foreign contacts, the process of where

we are going, and I think we are in need of that at this

point.

Chairman Stokes. Your comments to me were brought to the

attention of Mr. Blakey today and he is going to follow

through with that.

Mr. Blakey. There are a number of dramatic developments

that are occuring day by day, and I am finding it a problem

being brief, but I have obviously no problem with keeping you

people up to date and we can certainly do that within the next

week.

Chairman Stokes. There being nothing further at this

time, the meeting is adjourned subject to the call of the

chair.

13

17.

18

19

..20

*Whereupon at 4:55, the committee adjourned subject to

the call of the chair.)

23

24

25

DocId: 32266912 Page

25

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

---

## Page 26

RULES AMENDMENT

(a majority must be present)

RESOLVED:

The Rules are hereby amended, by adding a new

section 13.11 to provide as follows:

13.11

Members who desire access to restricted

(including classified

and confidential)

or sensitive information that has in

addition been designated by the Chairman

as primary information, shall be required

to request such access in writing to the

Committee.

Each such request by a Member

must be considered by the Committee, a

majority being present, at the earliest

opportunity.

The Committee may, by record

vote, grant the Member's request. If the

Member's request is not granted, the

Committee shall forward the Member's re-

quest, together with a recommendation and

report of the Committee, to the House.

If the Committee did not grant the Member's

request, the Member shall have access to the

primary information only subsequent to a

determination by the House that the Member's

request should be granted.

DocId: 32266912

Page 26

Full Commirice Exhibir *16

---