INTERVIEW WITH JOSEPH BURKHOLDER SMITH
Originator: HSCA
From: FONZI, GAETON
To: BLAKEY, G. ROBERT
Document date: 05/08/1978
Document type: LETTER

## Page 1

180-10070-10404

2022 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

JFK Assassination System

Date:

Identification Form

Agency Information

9/21/201

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER:

RECORD SERIES :

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

HSCA

180-10070-10404

NUMBERED FILES

008279

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: HSCA

FROM:

FONZI, GAETON

TO :

BLAKEY, G. ROBERT

TITLE:

INTERVIEW WITH JOSEPH BURKHOLDER SMITH

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

05/08/1978

9

SMITH, JOSEPH BURKHOLDER

CIA

DOCUMENT TYPE : LETTER

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: 3

CURRENT STATUS :

Redact

DATE OF. LAST REVIEW:

12/17/1996

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

Box 152.

NH 50955

DooId: 32244346

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JFK Routing Slip

008279

NO. 0082011

Intermen DATE 7

15/78

Jocument I.D. INCOMING CORRESPONDENGE

INDEX

1

mith

peps 3.

CiA

Anditon, Ganes

COPY TO

Robert Blakey

Gary Cornwell

Kenneth Klein

Charlie Mathews

Jim Wolf

Pink Rillings

Jackie Hess

Cliff Fenton

Mike Ewing

Team #1

button, Henri

Team #2

Team #3

reantf

Special Instructions:

Reach, ParL

Doodpasture, An

Bustas, Charlacle

Form #2

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MEMORANDUM -

TO :

FROM:

RE :

May 8, 1978

G. Robert Blakey

Gaeton Fonzi

Interview with JOSEPH BURKHOLDER SMITH

008279

Background:

Joseph Burkholder Smith is a retired officer

who served 22 years

as a covert action specialist in the

Clandestine

Services of the Central Intelligence Agency.

His duties included service in the

Far East Division,

stationed in Singapore and Manila, and on the Malaysian

desk.

He also served in the WesterntHemisphere Division

as desk chief for Venezuela, as a covert operations

officer in Argentina and as

chief of the Propaganda

Guidance Section of the Covert Action Staff, where he

directed David Phillips, chief of the Propaganda Branch

of the Cuban task force for the Bay of Pigs operation.

Smith has published

a book titled: Portrait of a Cold

Warrior, subtitled "Second Thoughts of a Top CIA Agent."

(G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York, 1976)

Smith was

interviewed relative to Team Five's ClA Issue.

A preliminary background

interview with Smith was conducted

by Fonzi

and Hardway on

October 20, 1977. See Hardway

working memorandum

that date.)

Smith was interviewed on April 20, 1978 in his condominium

at 1301 S. First Street, Jacksonville, Beach, Florida.

Smith was shown the letter executed by ClA Acting Director

Frank C. Carlucci to Committee Chairman Stokes indicating

access to information within the secrecy agreement and

authorizing individuals bound by such agreements to cooperate

with the Committee.

Smith was asked what significance he thought such a letter

had in terms of total access

it had a lot of significance if the Committee were truly getting

access to project files. "That's where all the information

is, " he said.

He said, however, that many files may

been destroyed in the ClA's reaction to previous critical

attacks on its operations.

He said the Agency had a "flap

mentality" to criticism

and took to organizing "task forces"

to protect itself against Congressional investigations.

being asked to do a book review

of it, he has had advance

copies of former ClA Director William

Colby's new book. "The

interesting thing to me," he

said, "was

the beating he was taking

inside the Agency for being as

-more-

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Smith

interview

frank as he was." Smith said that one former chief of station

was so upset at

He even goes that ne saged to e triestat

"He's

a goddamn 'Jesuit! He even goes to confession!"

smith

said that Colby's problems

within the Agency stemmed

largely from the conflict he had with James Angleton, former

longtime head

of the Agency's Counter-Intelligence Division.

Smith said that Colby says in his book: "I frankly didn't

know what Angleton

was doing."

Colby, Smith said, doesn't

reveal that he ever found

out.

Smith said that despite the stated cooperation expressed

by the top administrators

CIA, there

is still the

possibility of the committee's efforts to akkarkaxta gather

information

being blocked at lower levels without the

knowledge of higher echelons.

"But," he said, "if you

have access to project files,

you have access to the

guts of the thing."

He suggested

reading the cable

traffic very carefully, taking note of the euphemistic

language employed.

It was pointed out to smith that there were two possibly

conflicting statements in his book.

On page 15 he wrote:

"One question I could not swallow

_- the one about the ClA's

killing President Kennedy -- probably because it was part

of a romantic myth in American politics I deplored." Later

in the book, on page 400, following the death of Martin Luther

King, he notes telling a

class he

is teaching: "What's happening

in the United States these days makes us worse than a banana

republic.... We're turning into a government by assassination. "

Smith was

asked if he has any second thoughts about the

assassination of President Kennedy.

He said

no, and, as he said in his

book, he

had notinside

information about it.

"The only thing that bothers me now, "

he said,

to come back to what

staff.

1* Salby can make a statement like this - and after

I said before, is Angleton's

all he was the Director -- it makes you wonder."

Smith said that Angleton's

staff

dild "strange things."

Despite

ihe fact

he only had counter-intelligence jurisdictioribased

Angleton,

said Smith, handled

all Israeli operations,

on contacts he

had made when

he was a young OSS officer in

Italy. "

Smith

who or what these contacts were.

said he never knew'"this, " said Smith,

and Colby doesn't say,

"had

a strange effect on our activities in the Middle East,

" because

unlike

in other Divisions where

station chiefs kept each

other informed, Angleton

wouldn't pass information to other

stations in the Arab countries unless "he felt like it."

_more-

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smith said he didn't know how Angleton "got all his power,"

he knew that many of the people who worked

for him

shared his political views and were "confirmed

believers

in the world Communist conspiracy theory."

He said, "These

guys actually believed that the split between the Russians

and Chinese was a great deceptive operation.

Colby even

says something more amazing.

He claims that Angleton absolutely

believed that all ClA operations were run by the KGB. He

says Angleton

believed

that every top

Soviet defector we

took in was a plant.

I think that's incredible.

I know there were some guys on his

staff were his true believers."

As far as the Kennedy assassination goes, said Smith, "The

only thing I can say now,

and, again l'm quoting Colby,

there could

have been operations that Angleton staff was

running that he wouldn't even tell the Director.

Angleton

did,

however, have a special

relationship with Allen Dulles

when

he was

running the Agency."

It was pointed out to smith that Frank Sturgis has worked

with

Israeli Intelligence

and that

Stugis and E. Howard

Hunt were associated.

Smith was asked of the relationship

between Hunt and

Angleton.

smith said he thought that Hunt

never worked on Angleton's staff, but that Hunt's last job

at the Agency as chief of covert operations in the European

Division probably put him in

contact with Angleton.

Smith brought up the fact that in our previous interview we

the information in his book relating

Frank Fiorini Sturgis to E. Howard Hunt before the Bay of

Pigs operation.

He said at the time that he couldn't recall

where he got the information but felt it was from a printed

source and that he would

let us know as soon

as he discovered

it. Now he said he recalled that he got the information

from Hunt's book, Give Us This Day.

smith pointed out that

says that Pedro Diaz Lanz and

Frank Fiorini dropped

leaflets together over Cuba.

It was pointed out to Smith, however,

specifically avoids mentioning ever meeting Fiorini

that time

although he specifically seeks out Diaz Lanz as

a result of that operation, but he, smith, says in his book:

"Hunt relied heavily in his liaison with the exile political

leaders on an ex-Marine, Frank Fiorini."

And: "Fiorini worked

for Hunt in Coral Gables under the name of Frank Sturgis."

Smith appeared confused, said he thought he had gotten it

from his "old Cuban

notes,"

is "pretty sure" that David

Phillips didn't tell him,

but now, again, doesn't remember

where he got that specific information.

It was pointed out

to smith that writer Andrew St. George, in an early Argosy

article, quoted sturgis as saying he met Hunt before the

Bay of Pigs. Smith said he didn't recall that article.

-more.

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Smith

was shown

newspaper clipping

from the Miami Herald

dated October 2nd, 1976 and headlined: "Despite Denial by

Helms,

CIA Eyed Oswald as Source."

He was asked for a

comment about that.

He said, "Well, I gather that a lot

of secrecy agreements were honored in the Warren Commission

days, but I don't know

anything about that."

Smith

was asked to be speculative about the situation within

the ClA if Oswald had been

deep cover agent for the Agency.

Smith said: "If he had been any kind of an asset, obviously

he would have worked either for the soviet Division, which

ran operations in the Soviet Union, or the Counter Intelligence

staff. He was obviously targeted at the Russians and the

Cubans. And there's a

possibility he could have been

working

for the people who handled Cuban matters, too. Because this

was the hay-day for the JM/WAVE station

those raids on Cuba

in Miami, running

and a whole

host of other things.

1

guess this was called WH-4.

Western Hemisphere.

WH-I was

Mexico, WH-2 was the West Coast and WH-4 was Cuba, before

JM/WAVE. "

Smith pointed out that the

assumption was that all of

Cuban Intelligence's operations

are being

run by the Soviets.

was very interested

"I know," said smithin the

"that the

Counter Intelligence staff

Fair Play for Cuba Committee

getting

a penetration into it would have been

a high priority

effort."

Smith was asked if he knew anything relative to the fact that

the leaflets Oswald distributed in New

Orleans had the address

of a building that appeared to house some kind of intelligence

operation run by Guy Banister, a former FBl agent.

smith said he didn't know anything specific, but there were

a lot of

former FBl men on Angleton's staff

and in the old

WH Division, run by J.C. King.

Smith was asked

about his reference in

his

jbook to J.c. King's

relationship to "old Batista

interests! and

"business interests,"

and whether there was a possibility that the New Orleans

intelligence operation headed by Banister was funded by right-wing

groups through J.c. King.

Smith

said: "Oh yes, I should think

50.

And I do know that

the WH Division did have some activities

operating out of New Orleans and

I think some of these were

used

fronts for funding. King's friends were mostly

right-wing, certainly."

Asked for specifics, Smith

"I do know that throughout the

Bay of Pigs period,

King did run

and fund some Batista types.

I didn't know their true

names and I can't remember their

cryptograms now."

Smith said he learned thafolenry Sutton

La false name] and Dave Phillips when he worked with them.

-more-

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Smith said that lthe fact that King was funding Batista types]

bothered

some people, including Phillips, since the ClA was

supposed

to be taking the broad

front approach as far as

working with Cubans went.

In speaking of some of the false names he used in the book

telloutee described ssly as "paul," the chiet of Covert

one of the tal smith poin

Smith pointed out that the

Action on the WH Division staff level, the one who got him

to come into the

Division, his true name was Paul Oberst.

He thinks he retired and may be in California or Arizona.

"Henry" is Henry Sutton, real name unknown.

"Curly" iss Foster Collins.)

(Paul Oberst became deputy to David Phillips in Cuban Operations

in

1968; in 170 or 171, Phillips went to Brazil and Paul

retired.)

Smith

said that many of the ClA officers with right-wing

political leanings,

men such as J.C. King and Howard Hunt,

were truly very bitter over

the Bay of Pigs operation, even

though they may have a part

of the

responsibility for its

failure.

And that didn't prevent them

from advancing in

the Agency because the attitude at the time was that it was

best to keep them

happy and quiet.

smith said, "Besides,

Hunt was very bright in this kind

of business, he always

had

lots of ideas.

He was a

this kind of ty triester che could

real

always be counted on to come

up with some clever scheme."

Smith was asked about the relationship between King, Phillips

and ClA station chief in Cuba,

Caldwell.

they fit

in the same mold? "Yeah," said Smith. "I guess so."

said the last he heard of Caldwell was that he was in Florida

perhaps involved in some

business with the Tandy Company.

Besides being chief of station in Cuba at one time,

said Smith,

Caldwell had also been deputy chief of the WH Division under

J.C. King.

He was known as

"one of J.C.'s guys."

He said

King, Phillips and Caldwell

were all fairly close.

It was pointed out to smith that Hunt, in his book, gives

the name of "Knight" to Phillips, yet from the information

the name Hunt himself used

"Yeah,

I think I might have heard

that, too, about Phillips

and Bishop."

Smith said

he couldn't recall where he heard that.

smith wasn't familiar with the name "Doug Gupton," but thinks

he might have heard of George Witwer.

-more-

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Smith

was

asked about his knowledge of the Swan

Island

operation.

He said he didn't know much about it because

set up by the time he got involved in the Cuban

operation.

He didn't remember the name of the case officer

handling it but knew that its operation came under the

command of David Phillips.

Smith was asked about Justin McCarthy.

He said the name

familiar but he couldi't recall it specifically.

He believes he was "in the task force somewhere."

In discussing the career of David Phillips and his switch

to Cuban Operations in Mexico City in 1963, taking the place

of Robert Shaw, Smith said

he didn't know precisely what

the situation was there at the time.

He recalled that

Phillips brought up a guy from Bolivia with whom he was

very close,

a fellow named James Flannery, who took the

job as chief of covert action, which Phillips had when he

first went to Mexico City.

During the Bay of Pigs operation,

Flannery was "special assistant" to Richard Bissell.

He

then became chief of station

in Bolivia.

Then Phillips

went on to be chief of station in Santo Domingo during the

Dominican crisis. Flannery

later was chief of Dominican

operations also.

When Phillips

became chief of WH Division,

he made Flannery his deputy, Smith said he doesn't know

where Flannery

is now.

Smith was shown the sketch of Maurice Bishop and asked if

it reminded him of anyone.

He said: "Well, the nose is

too thin, but otherwise it reminds me of Dave Phillips. "The

eyes are definitely Dave's, and the mouth."

Smith was asked about his recollection during the previous

interview when he mentioned a women who found the photo of

Oswald.

He said he doesn't recall when he heard the story,

whether it was when he got to Mexico City or when he was

still in Argentina. He does recall that the discovery of

the picture was supposed to have greatly pleased President

Johnson and made Mexico City station chief Win Scott "his

number one boy." He said the story was that someone remembered

seeing Oswald's face somewhere in the photo coverage of the

Cuban or Russian

embassy, went back through the files and

found the picture.

Smith said he heard that story certainly more than once, at

least, when he got to Mexico City

and perhaps when he first

got into the WH Division.

The earliest he could have possibly

heard that story, he said, was when he was still in Argentina,

not too

long after the

assassination,

from someone "coming

through."

He said, "Des Fitzgerald]"might have even mentione

it when

he came through, which was In early '64, or Gerry Drollerr

-тОБЕ-

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might have mentioned it when he came through, talking about

the Mexico City station

investigation."

was helping out

during the

Smith was

asked if the name

of Charlotte Bustos was familiar.

He said yes, that she was at the Mexico City station when

he was there.

She was a Counter Intelligence research

analyst, under WH Division.

He described her as a "very

severe person

and very diligent and very much the

Counter Intelligence mentality l mentioned before."

He was also asked about Ann Goodpasture.

Smith said he knew

her, too.

"Annie was another one of Win Scott's case officers.

She was in Mexico City for about 14 years. Annie was what

we called the

'resource person.' Annie knew everything."

Smith said Scott also had

another very knowledgeable woman

worked with Goodpasture whose name was Leach or Lynch.

She was the woman,

Smith said, who was associated with

discovering the photo of Oswald.

Smith

was asked if

he had

any recollection of Bustos

being

associated with finding the photo of Oswald.

said,

could

very well have been, and Annie,

too.

But I thought it

was this other girl, Lynch.

But no, I don't think l ever

heard

specifically

who found the damn picture.

I guess by

the time I got there l didn't care."

Smith

said that he heard Leach or Lynch might be in Acapulco,

but a directory of

Federal employees he had

didn't have

her listed, he said.

It was pointed out to smith that

in his book (page 337), he

writes of Phillips telling him of assets he had "for his

own direct use. "

Smith said he had, for instance, the use

of Radio Swan

and three

or four people who had been radio

or newspaper men in Cuba.

He couldn't recall their names,

said, the Wise and Ross book (The Invisible Government)

mentioned the name of a public relations man who helped him

in New York.

He did confirm that Conte-Aquerra, when mentioned,

was one of Phillips' assets.

smith was asked if he was

familiar

with a ClA agent named

David Morales, known

as

"El Indio, "

who was training

guerilla warfare troops in the Florida Keys. He said he

never heard the name.

Neither did

he ever hear the name

of Cesar Diosdato.

was asked

again about the nature of "unvouchered funds."

He said that all of the funds destined for clandestine operations

are unvouchered funds.

The salary of clandestine officers,

he said, come from such unvouchered funds. Such funds, he

said,

-more-

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- Smith interview

are not

really "unvouchered"

in the true sense of the word,

since they are

strictly accounted

for within

the Agency,

but that term is meant only

to differentiate them from

funds spent on overt operations.

The moneys that paid

project activities, he said, are

unvouchered funds.

However, he pointed out, the Division chiefs had their own

funds from which they could

finance what he called "hip

usually only were accounted

pocket operatels on hifet and the Deputy Director of Plans.

between the

Smith was asked about the allegation in Hunt's book that

William Harvey got transterred

and

demoted by Robert Kennedy

because he had a poster on his wall which said.

"The tree. of

liberty is watered with the blood of patriots.

Smith said

he had never heard that and didn't know much about Harvey, had

never met him, knew only that Ted Shackley had replaced him

in the JM/WAVE station in Miami. He remembered that he heard

that Harvey was a short guy who had his desk elevated on a

platform so he could look down on his visitors.

Smith

said

he also didn't know

much about the John Planck,

nentioned in Hunt's book, from Harvard, only that he was

considered

the top Latin

affairs expert

at one time.

Smith

recalled that Des Fitsgerald replaced J.C. King as

chief

of the WH Division in

early 1964.

"They sort of ganged

up on King, formed this special Cuban Group and put Fitzgerald

in charge of it.

Left old J.C. sitting there with the most

important

activity in his areanno longer his responsibility."

Smith said, however, when

Fitzgerald visited

him

in Argentiaa

he expressed disappointment that President Johnson wasn't

as interested in Cuba

Kennedy had been.

Smith expressed anuunfamiliarity with "back channel" communications,

but said

that highly classified messages could have a

sensitivity indicator which could be limited to as few as

five people.

Whether such communications would be retained

for the

record in the message center, he wouldn't know.

He said he is unfamiliar with the organization known as CUSA.

When told of the details of it, he said:"In

the early

1505

there were quite a few ties with the professional anti-communist

Types, but,

again, given

the kind of thinking that Angleton

and some of hic

people did about those things, they could have

organized something like that without any problem."

Smith

said he wouldn't be surprised if Angleton knew of

Frank Sturgis's operations with Israeli Intelligence, "if it

wasn't one

of his operations. "

smith said

hadn't heard of the association of Manuel Artime

-more-

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He said he first heard of

City and it was

as a world wide organization of super-liberal Catholics

perhaps

being controlled by the Communists.

#

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