## Page 1

157-10011-10024

2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

7/30/201

Agency Information

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER :

157-10011-10024

RECORD SERIES: TRANSCRIPT

AGENCY FILE NUMBER:

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE:

SSCIA

COLBY, WILLIAM E.

SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

05/21/1975

113

CASTRO

SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY

OPERATION MONGOOSE

CUBA

DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: Consulted; IB; Donor Restricted

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 05/04/1994

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS : SSCI Box 239, Folder 14

v9.1

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Vol. 1

Unauthorized Disclosure Subjec=

to Criminal Sanctions

Whyr Auiten Statre Sriate R 119

colby.

INVENTORIES:

4 of

CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO

DN 5/1877

DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR

RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT

BY

AS SANITIZED

Report of Proceedings

8f4119194

2/100/07

BC

Hearing held before

selece Cormittee to Study Governmental Operations

with Respec: co Intelligence Activities

-

Record Number 157-10011-10024

COMHITTEE HEARING

-

SSCI Box 239, Folder 14

Wednesday, May 21, 1975

Washington, D. C.

(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over

to the Committee for destruction)

WARD & PAUL

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WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003

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the first man contacted by MI. Maheu, worked through a

Cuban exile leader. And he offered -- and he said that he

could do something of this nature provided he got some funds

and the assistance. And he was supported in this regard.

And I think again we have some doubts as to the accuracy of

his reporting..

Mr. Schwarz.

In November 1961 did MI. Bissell inästruct

a William Harvey to take charge of the gambling syndicate

operation designed to kill Fidel Castro? Page 3 of Mr. Greer's

report, which is at the beginning of your report.

Mr. Colby. I believe so, yes.

Yes. That is what our evidence says, the summary

sais, "of the evidence available". And this is the evidence

available in 1963. And there

have been some minor changes in

some of the details of this summary, very minor changes.

But the essence of this report is still roughly accurate, I

believe.

Mr. Schwarz.

Mr. Harvey -- was Mr. Harvey the man that

had hired an agent in order to kill Imumba?

Mr. Colby. Mr. Harvey was the head of Staff D, Staff D

of the Operations directorate

was resoons ible for communica

tions inte nigence work on

the secret level. A substantial

portion of this. starsus work ivolves attempts to

penetsate

Fembassies» pa

ciculasly

wab road

os totally abroad, I dont

thin

ave

ev

ei done

one here, Le ordes to get at thei

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codes

ainio

1(B)

31

and in the process, you obviously work up

some people who are able to do this kind of work, which is

quite different from the normal life style of most of us.

Mr. Harvey had been a very venturesome officer in the

past. He was responsible for the Berlin tunnel.. And he was

sent down, to take this job. And he assumed as part of it the

capability of -- he was given by Mi. Bissel this chore of

carrying

on this particular operation as well.

Mr.

Schwarz. Had he been the person who had, in

connection with the abortive effort to kill Mr. Lmumba,

hired

an agent for that purpose?

MI. Colby. I have forgotten whether hehired him. He

I (B)

hired a foreigner. And this foreigner's job -four secoras

indicate that

this foreigner as

job was tied su

the pene-

Lesation of codes rooms

and the

safe. cracking and things of thus

mature, for

that parpos

• And there are some very obscure

references that an additional assignment was to look into the

possible assassination of MI. Lmumba.

The evidence is

that he went down to what is now Kinshasa, Elizabethville in

1960, stayed there a few weeks, and left in October, I

believe. And then Mr. Lmumba was killed thereafter in a totally

separate set of circumstances in which we had nothing to do.

There is some indication that a CIA officer who was asked

to have something to do with this particular job said he did

not want to do it.

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was not advised of the assassination activities. Quite likely

•I cannot say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation

system was such.

Chairman Church. What was the name of the CIA agent who

was given the responsibility for liaison betwaen the CIA and

the Warren Commission?

MI. Colby. To my knowledge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca.

Chairman Church. Where is it now?

Mr. Colby. He retired at the end of December of last year.

He remained working for us for a few months. I think he is

retired. I think he is retired. I believe he is still in

the Washington area.

Mr. Knoche. Yes, he is still working with us.

Mr. Colby. Still working with us to help on the transi-

tion of the whole counter intelligence program.

Chairman Church. Why did he retire?

MI. Colby.

That was the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, and

the facts of that case were that I had had some professional

differences in the organization with MI. Angleton as to the

way the counterintelligence business was run ana thel mey elenll)

Israeli

account

vas handled. I believed that it required

higher degree of coordination of the other elements of the

Directorate and of the Agency. We had debated this on various

occasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973

and

took a number of functions away from it. The liaison with che

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for instance, and a couple of other things.

gradually

endeavored to open up the foraels account to a better.

53 ation

Lship

thio

Oft

WS.

debared. t

over many

and on

several occasions. we could neve

rea1l

ag

insisted on the importance of

retaining

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2.5

here. it

was

Angleton had doneral

Liaison

yeass

ery soa job ot establ

ot of the semor Iscaniti wher

Iwere

involved

it.

areas.

leved there, was inadequate

Coordination vin the Asale

1 (b)

Also, I believed that there was a undue degree of compart-

mentation of that staff, that it needed more interchange with

our other divisions.

We debated this and discussed it and I

set as my time limit for this discussion the end of December:

because there were some very substantial retirement benefits

that people would loose if they stayed after that point. Then

unfortunately the Seymour Hirsh article of December 22nd came

to our attention before it was actually published, and so I

brought Mr. Angleton up and said that I was going to make tio

basic decisions.

i was going to toverthe Israeli accoun

101

I was going to put some sucessor leadership

into the Head of the Counterintelligence Staff. I said I would

offer him a post of tying together some counterintelligence

doctrine, he could stay working with us. He did not have to

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Chinese Communists subsequently blamed the Chinssa Nationalists

and the US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft employee

had fled to Taiwan.

We had nothing to do with that incident

and frankly heard about it after it occurred. '

In the fall of 1956, a

senior Chinese Nationalist official

informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National planned to

assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in

November '56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest of

the Chinese Nationalist officer sent to Phnom Penh to supervise

the attempt. We learned of this after it had happened and we

had nothing to do with it.

We bad a relationsbip with ther Chineser

Natronalists

Intelligence Service over the years and

they clearly navercon.

ings without

our kowledge or tavolvementn ana in a numb

we bave also worked together on so

areas

1ib4

These are two that were separate.

Also I was asked to look at the photographs of Howard Hunt

and Sturgis that appeared in Nawsweek some years ago. We

obtained this photograph from the FBI last night about 5 o'clock.

We had not had it before.

We had a copy of the Newsweek

edition.

These are photographs of Howard Hunt in 1919, 1950 and

1961. This is the only photograph we have of Mr. Sturgis.

It is taken out of the Newsweek.

We nave had no connection with Mr. Sturgis and so ve have

TO

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Sanator Schweiker. Did you get the other photograph, the

supposed oswald photograph leaving the Embassy?

Mr. Colby. I don't have that with me. It is in the

Warren Commission published report. It is in there.

Senator Schweiker. It is in there?

Mr. Colby.

Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to

conceal where it was taken but it was --

Senator Schweiker. It is in the Warren Commission?

Mr. Colby. Yes, it is in the Warren Commission.

Just one additional matter.

Chairman Church. Just one thing I would like to say to

you, Mr. Colby, before I forget it.

You have, made reference

che

Israeli accountand the special.

that it bad been?

band.l

under Mr. Angleton.

Before we

tinish our review

yOU

ations we wouldn

have a more detailed

statemente

that matter,

1(t)

Mr. Colby. Right.

Chairman Church. And I think you should prepare to

discuss it with us and we will have further questions to ask

you ir connection with it.

I just wanted to give you notice.

Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a

covert action but that is all right, no problem, I will cover

it.

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them.

Me. Harvey was given the resporsibility of this by Mr:

Bissel and originally it continued as a separate action from

the Castro operation, but Mr. Harvey was also given that

responsibility, and for all interts and purposas they became

wedded.

Mr. Helms was the person who formally approved 7R Rifle

as a project.

ZR Rifle had a dual purpose that has not been

clarified by our inquiry. It apparently was in fact

used for

the stated purposes, as far as organizational activities went

along, which

was

to steal

codes

and Mr. Helms, when he

approved

the project, authorized accountirg

on certification,

which meant that rather than the usual vouchers supporting

expenditures, that the officer involved would simply certify

that the money had been spent and this would be accepted.

It had a project amount of some dollars, 57500 - 510,009-

some of it to include the salary of an agent, some to inclus

operating expenses.

So Mr. Helms' main appearance in the approval of ZR Pifla

doas not necessarily equate with the date when he became

faniliar with the Castro operation.

Me. Schwarz. Because of the dual purpose of Rifle, Riêle

means both, rifle files and used iifles?

Mr. Sreckirridge.

It may mean either or boch.

Me. Colby.

It is supposed to disassociate but sometimes

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Mr. Schwarz. November 1961?

Mr. Breckinridge.

I think that is probably correct.

It

was in the fall of 1961 that Mr. Harvey was given this assignment

by MI. Eissel. I think MI. Bisse- left in 1962. I am avi sure

of the dates, So MI. Bissel would have known at that time.

But I am not sure after that.

Chairman Church. Helms succeeded Mr. Bissel as chief

of operations?

Mr. Colby. Deputy Director of Plans.

Chairman Church. Deputy Director for Plans.

Your record shows that Helms had knowledge of the ZR Rifle

operation, which, among other things, was to develop an executive

capability - whatever that means. Presumably that means a

capability to conduct an assassination if and when authorized

by proper authority?

Mr. Breckinridge. That is my understanding.

Chairman Church. Is that your understanding?

Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir.

Chairman Church. Do your records show that, or is that

based upon what has been revealed through your interrogation?

MI. Breckinridge. First, let me go back and clarify, then

I will answer this question, if I may.

Mr. Helms approved ZR Rifle, Which the

Gosa

Si essenat

Showshas The

1(b)

My understanding, from my interviews, is that z?. Rifle had

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Chairman Church. Senator Hart.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Mi... Colby, in connection with

ZR Rifle, I think you testified or your associate said this was

1(B)

a multi-purpose operation,

inciuaing stealing codes. and the

development of the capability of what euphemistically is called

executive action.

In your professional judgment, and with your history of

your background in the Agency, does it make any sense to you that

a major operation, a major intelligence gathering operation

the

sost

Ling codes

itch. i assume means tzon othes

1(13

goveruments"

would be mounted under the direction of a man

about whom all I know is that Mr. Harvey has a background of

something like a soldier of fortune, and funded at the level,

I should say, of $7500 to $10,000?

Does

it not suggest to you that stealing codes was in

1(BJ

fact an internal cover for what was explicitly an assassination

operation with unlimited, non-voucher financial capability?

Mr. Colby. No, not that it is purely a cover.

In the first place, Mr. Harvey had a very successful tour

in Berlin where he ran the Berlin tunnel operation, which was

one of our major successful intelligence operations.

Mr. Harvey was a

very colorful figure who had his lifestyle.!

which is different than some others, but he had been very

effective at that,

ano

covertunesone un

that category

signals

1ate

igence

and a very venturesome icea of that nacure.

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He was in the assignment of Chief of the FI Division staff.

that, Status maiormation isntonconduct the smals intelligenc

workwich must be

done in sche clandestine service.

1 (B)

it a nates our efforts today to peretrate into foreig

Gode

rooms abroad,

and things of that nature,

and it. involves

the

breaking into of safes and thines, all that compt stoated

material

1(B)

Now, the thing that puts it together with this "capability"

executive action, is the high degree of compartmentation of

this matezial, that kind of a project.

other

words, a.

code-brea

saling operation, obvious I yastha

kept

secret

geticaughtin

sorts offery bad ai olonate ampinicacions phand.so

1 (B)

Therefore, there is a system of very sharp compartmentation of

the work of that particular group.

You also are dealing with some very venturesome peopie

who

aze willing

ato

somebody else's code room and

1(B)

take abelchence olgetting: cangie

So, given you have a man who had some good technica

experience, who is a venturesome type himself and is running a

program which is not too far off the requirements of higr

compartmentation, and a very high risk kind of operation;

and

therefore, for fir. Bissel to have selected Harvey to carry out

this projact seems to me that it is compatible chas be cere

be sunaig code-breaking projects.

code stealing proj

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92

as well as this other activity.

Now, in the lifestyle at the time, not mentioning the second

one, this gets back into the recordkeeping that we have been

discussing. It was not to be put on the record although to be

done. That is a perfectly proper hypothesis, it seems to me,

but to say that

the code stealing was only a cover I think is

1

probably an unwarranted conclusion.

Senator Hart of Colorado. What about the level of funding

of $7,500 to $10,000?

Mr. Colby. That is not

very much money for that kind of

an operation.

Senator Hart of Colorado. Precisely. I think it is too

little.

Mr. Colby. No. For a capability of that nature, it is

largely a staff operation. In other words, you use your own

staff officers. You may hire an agent of something, but I don't

think you can draw much conclusion from the actual number on

the figure one way or the other.

This might not have been the only such project. You know,

assassination project would cost you more money than that,

too.

Senator Hart of Colorado.

Absolutely.

Mr. Colby. I find it hard to say that that is the only

amount of money involved. I think you get into a situation

where additional money would be out into either of those kinds

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Chairman Church. Before you do, would you just explain

exactly what the relationship between CIA and Giancana aná

Maheu was because that is not clear in my mind.

Would you develop for the Committee that whole relationshipe

MI. Breckinridge. Robert Maheu used to work for tbe

FBI and he resigned from the FBi ard opened a private investiga-

tive firm here in Washington and CIA used him from time to

time for certain kinds of support activities.

Chairman Church.

That kind of support activities?

Ir. Breckinridge.

On One occasion

he obtained a female

companion

eade

1(B)

Chairman Church.

What other kind of support?

Mr. Sreckinridge. In the early days -- and this becomes

ambarrassment. As nearly as I can reconstruct, the people

who knew him decided to put him on a rotainer in the Office

of Security, which they did for awhile, until he was so

successful he said he no longer added the retainer, which he

didn'‡ do much to earn. He later got involved zapsesasting

one of the Greek shipping interests and we were given the

results of some of the information that he obtained from thas

where there was a fight between Niarchos aad Onassis. We

think he may have had some involvement in another

Lead

companionship when he was in this country.

I dorit

have the detaiis. I think we can probably reconstruct it for

you.

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smn 1

Thomas t. 9

MI. Schwarz. I would like to pick up on the discussion

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we had.

Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz has five minutes more, and

we will include, and I would lik to ask the Committee io stay

on for ten more minutes for an executive session.

MI. Schwarz. In the discussion we had on the use of

criminal elements, we have dealt with the Castro operation.

In the middle of the book sipplied to us by Mr. Breckinridge

earlier this week, there is a discussion about the Lumumba

operation, and the Agent l. J. Win.

Now, is it a fact that l. j. Win was the agent, or asset,

however you would refer to him, who apparently was considered

for the effort to assassinate Lumumba, which never took place;

is that right?

Mr. Colby. Yes, sir.

Mr. Schwarz. Now, is it accurate that l. J. Win operated

rope

Spot

and

assess

individuals whom

gene

could

use

in safecracking operations?

1(B)

Mr. Colby. This is what is reported, and it is quite

possible.

Mr. Breckinridge. The recora indicates that.

Mr. Schwarz. And is it further so that one of the CIA

officers who first met l. J. Winfe

sousga wes

to Bind galeerackers and documene

Supplers?

I (B)

Mr. ColDy.

Yes, that is what it says.

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