DEPOSITION OF RICHARD HELMS
Agency: ROCKCOM
Originator: ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION
Document date: 04/24/1975
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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178-10002-10093

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

8/27/201

AGENCY: ROCKCOM

RECORD NUMBER:

178-10002-10093

RECORD SERIES: SCHWARZER-MANFREDI FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : S-M (IV-EE) RICHARD HELMS (3 OF 3) -

Document Information

ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE: DEPOSITION OF RICHARD HELMS

DATE:

04/24/1975

PAGES:

35

SUBJECTS :

WARREN COMMISSION

SHAW, CLAY

OSWALD, LEE, TRIP TO MEXICO

OSWALD, LEE, FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE

OPERATION MONGOOSE

NOSENKO

NEW ORLEANS

JOHNSON, LYNDON

GARRISON, JIM

FERRIE, DAVID

CUBAN EXILES

CIA

ASSASSINATIONS, DIEM

WARREN, EARL

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

DOCUMENT TYPE: DEPOSITION

CLASSIFICATION :

Top Secret

RESTRICTIONS: 1B

CURRENT STATUS : Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW :

07/01/1993

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS

Pages 371-403, plus cover and contents page, of longer deposition.

v9.1

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ORIGINAL

178-10002-10093

S-M

PRESIDENTS COMMESSION

ON CIA ACTIVITIES

1 of 2

Deposicion of: RICHARD MOGARRAN

FIR INS

Thursday,

April 24, 19%5

langley, Virginta

PHOTOCOPY FROM THE GERALD R.

FORD LIBPARY

MONORATIT

WAKU& AlI

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colant.

wards fly-

scripta

written

manent

wards endure

WASHINGTON, D.C.

410 First Street, S.E., 20003

Phone

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TM

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FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA

4055 Chain Bridge Rd., 22030

Phone

(703) 273-2400

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10009109(207 eat. anne

CONTENTS

Deposition of:

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE

COMMISSION

194

Richard McGarrah Helms

(Resumed)

(AFTERNOON SESSION - 297)

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NUMBER

Helms 1

Helms 2

Helms 3

Helms 4

Helms 5

Helms 6

Helms 7

Helms 8

Helms 9

Helms 10

Helms 11

Helms 12

Helms 13

FILIBITS

FOR IDENTIFICATION

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had done by having the liaison officer come back and forth.

and my recollection is that I advocated that we just sort

of wait it out and see what happened.

MR. OLSEN: Did it enter into your thinking in

that connection, Ambassador, that little could be done by

attempting to compel MI. Hoover to do anything in any event?

THE WITNESS: I didn't think there was a chance of

Attorneys General being able to persuade him to reverse

himself.

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MR. ROETHE: Do you want to go into a different

area now?

MR. OLSEN: Yes.

MR. ROETHE: I will sort of rest my thought here

for a few minutes.

BY MR. OLSEN:

Are you acquainted with the general subject of the

handling of a defector by the name of Nosenko?

Yes.

Did Nosenko defect. to the United States at the

time you were the DCI?

A

I have forgotten exactly what my job was when he

defected. Could you give me the date when he defected?

MR. ROETHE: I believe it was in 1965. I think it

was just before you --

THE WITNESS:

Became Deputy Director?

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MR. ROETHE: Yes.

THE WITNESS:

Because I didn't become Director until

1966, I believe.

MR. ROETHE: This was in 1965.

BY MR. OLSEN:

When was it that you became Deputy Director?

I think it was in April 1965.

In any event, you are acquanted with that whole

situation -

A

Yes.

--are you not?

Yes, I am.

Who specifically within the Agency had charge of the

initial handling of Nosenko?

A

Normally, defectors were handled by the Domestic

Contact Division of the Office of Operations, but it seems

to me that this fellow was given a special treatment all his

own and I don't recall who it was that did have him in

custody, whether it was the Security Office, the Counter-

intelligence Staff. I just honestly don't recall.

Well, would it be of any help if I suggested

to you that the Office of Security was actually in charge of

his confinement?

A

That is what I was wondering.

But that the Counterintelligence Staff was the

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Agency that directed what was to be done with him and

conducted the interrogations of him and specified the condi-

tions under which he was to be kept, and so on?

A

Right.

Does that refresh your recollection?.

A

That helps a great deal because he was held down in

the installation we have here some miles from Washington

for

quite some months while an effort was being made to find

out whether he was

bona fide defector or not a bona

fide defector and one of the complicating factors as I

recall it was that he had made some sort of statement to

the

FBI when he arrived in this country that he

was going to

become a part of the Warren Commission report and we could

not seem to ascertain clearly enough that the fellow was what

he claimed to be and, therefore, the statement might have been

contaminated and might have affected the conclusions of the

Warren Commission. So I think this case went on for a long

time in our efforts to get all of this sorted out. But I

remember this was important enough that I sought a conversa-

tion with the Chief Justice who was Chairman of the Warren

Commission and talked to him, you know, one afternoon -- I

don't know if it was morning or afternoon but I talked to

him in some detail about this matter privately so that the

Warren Commission would

not necessarily

be misled by this

man's testimony which we were not able to vouch

for.

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What was it that Nosenko testified about of told

the FBI that he had a relationship with the Warren Commission?

A

I have forgotten. I am sure it is all in the

Warren Commission records and I have forgotten the precise

details of it. It had something to do with Oswald's time in

the Soviet Union.

MR. ROETHE: Isn't it true that the material was

never put into the Warren Commission, that you were successful

in convincing them to leave it out?

THE WITNESS: That was my impression.

MR. ROETHE: This is in fact a memorandum you

prepared for the records, isn't it, on your talk with the

Chief Justice and that is dated June 24, 1964?

THE WITNESS: Well, if it was June 1964, then

Nosenko must have defected before that.

MR. ROETHE:

I guess you are right. You are right.

BY 'MR. OLSEN:

I. In June of 1964 your position with the Agency was

what?

A

Plans.

I would have been then the Deputy Director for

A

Did you immediately succeed Richard Bissell?

Yes. I was his Deputy and then I succeeded him.

Yes. That is certainly my signature and it confirms that-

ever I can recall about this.

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Can you tell us what your impressions were as to

the justification of the Agency in retaining for such an

extended period of time the physical custody and person of

Mr. Nosenko?

A

We were simply trying to establish his bona fides

one way or the other. We took a very long time and had a

very hard time doing it for reasons, detailed reasons which

I don't recall, but I certainly remember that this was a

very difficult case for us. I even believe we went down to

talk to Mr. Katzenbach when he was the. Deputy Attorney General

in an effort to see if there was any way we could get assist-

ance from the Department of Justice about what our responsi-

bilities or our authorities or anything else where in the

case of a defector who put himself in our hands who might be

a spy on the United States and what we could do to somehow

get this whole thing sorted out. Needless to say, the

Department of Justice wasn't able to help us. Since we had

the responsibilities for handling defectors in this country

and we also had the responsibilities for establishing their

bona fides, this was the reason that he was held for so long.

We tried various things. I remember that I asked one of my

Deputies who was then Admiral Rufus Taylor who had been

Director of Naval Intelligence before, to spend full time

attempting

to sort out this case, see what we should do next

about it, how we could get it regularized, et cetera. It

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just turned out to be a very difficult thing and I agree that

he was kept an inordinate amount of time.

Was it your feeling that there was just simply no

satisfactory provision of American law to handle this kind

of case?

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There really is not, sir.

And that was your feeling at that time?

A

Yes. And I don't know of any even now.

I Did you feel that the Agency had in good faith

exhausted all alternatives that appeared to be open to it?

A

Yes. I really thought so. We spent

a lot of time

on this case.

To try to find a legal or proper way to handle it?

That is right. Proper solution to it.

Was it the conclusion of the Agency that Mr.

Nosenko just simply could not be released?

A.

That is right. If he was a Russian spy then we

just found ourselves

not in a position to be able to certify

that he was not.

Wasn't there some procedure that was available to

the Government of the United States with respect to deporting

him if his bona fides couldn't be determined in a reasonable

period of time?

I don't know whether this device has ever been

used. I am not familiar with it.

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I take it, if you deported him you would be placing

his life in considerable danger.

A

There

was always that problem. You know, I don't

think we have ever deported any defectors no matter how much

of a nuisance and pain in the neck they have been.. The only

ones that have gone back are the ones that asked to go back.

Do you recall who was made privy to this particular

arrangement under which Mr. Nosenko was being held? Was the

White House privy to this?

- A

Oh, I couldn't --

Was the Congress privy to it?

A

I wouldn't have thought so. I don't remember ever

discussing it with the Congress.

You do recall discussing it with the Attorney

General?

A

Yes, the Deputy Attorney General, he was at that

time.

Was he told of the specific conditions under which

Mr. Nosenko was being held?

A

I really don't remember all the details of the

session at that time, whether there were some other gentlemen

with me and we had just a general discussion of this case.

Were you aware of the specific conditions under

which he was being held?

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Yes.

BY MR. OLSEN:

What was the purpose of specifying such extremely

Spartan conditions for his confinement?

A

I believe

the feeling was being a Russian intelli-

gence officer that the fact that it was not going to be all

that comfortable might lead him over a period of time to be

more honest with us than he had apparently been up to that

time. This was a very difficult case. I think there were

two of three people who had the most intimate knowledge of

it on an almost daily basis and I would have no trouble with

whatever testimony they gave you. I just don't remember all

these details.

So that the reason as you understood it and the

reason you approved these highly Spartan conditions under which

he was held in solitary confinement, with no communications

with whatever, no radio, no television, no newspapers,

nothing to read, one bare light bulb in a very small cell,

with almost no opportunity to see outside, all of these con-

ditions were designed for the purpose of exerting mental

pressure on him to come clean?

A

That was my understanding of the reasons it was

done this way.

Have there been, to your knowledge, Ambassador,

any other instances in which defectors or others have been

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accorded similar treatment by the Agency?

A ' Well, there was one bad case, I don't know when

it was, many, many years ago, when some Agency interrogator

was

interrogating, I think it was some Russian or I think it

was

-- I don't know whether it was a Russian or a Balt. or

somebody who got carried away and actually was physically

abusive to this individual. And as soon as that came to my

attention, that was not only stopped but the fellow who was

responsible for it was fired. And it was -

Was this at a period of time when you were DDP?

A

It must have been or even before that. Maybe I

was Chief of Operations. I can't remember. But it was a

long

time ago.

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Did this occur inside the United States?

Yes, and it was made abundantly clear at that time

to everybody that nobody was going to be manhandled any

more forever.

Is that the only instance --

A

Only instance.

-- instance in which you know that happened?

That I recall, yes, and I don't even recall the

year it happened.

Do you remember the name of the person involved?

A

No, I do not. I think it could be ascertained

without toọ much difficult.

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Was any personal injury inflicted on the individual?

No. He didn't die of it, wasn't crippled, but it

was just they manhandled him some.

Was it a matter of losing one's temper or systematic

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torture?

A

I don't know. I think this fellow just exceeded

himself and exceeded his authority and thought by using some

force he would get some kind of confession out of this fellow.

Anyhow, I disapproved

it and I don't remember the details.

Has there been any instance that you know of in

your entire career with

the Agency, Ambassador, in which

a defector,

an employee, an agent, an operative connected with

the Agency, has been killed?

A

I know of none.

By the Agency?

I know of none. I recall none.

Or at the behest of the Agency because of his being

a security risk or a traitor?

Non, sir. I know of none.

Are you acquainted with a former employee of the

CIA by the name of Copeland?

Who?

Copeland.

A

Miles Copeland?

Miles Copeland.

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How could I have avoided him.

In a fairly recent book called "Without Cloak

and Dagger", Mr. Copeland describes a category of situations

in which penetrators, defectors, that is, defectors from

the United States, people who have furnished sensitive

information to foreign governments, disposed of with extreme

prejudice, the implication being that they are killed, and

that this is a practice that is employed by the Agency from

time to time.

I do not believe Mr. Copeland.

Do you know of any such instance occurring within

the Government of the United States?

A

I do not.

I. What is your impression as to the source of such

information and representations by Mr. Copeland?

Mr. Copeland is a fancifier. What is more, he is

a liar. What's more, he is one of the most dishonest son

of

a bitches I know.

Is it your impression, then, that this matter

is

just a figment of his imagination?

A .

That is my distinct impression.

Was his departure from the Agency anything that you

had something to do with?

A

No. I think he quit to go to work for some oil

oil company in the Middle East. It is only in recent years

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that he has become a novelizer, fancifier, a general expert

in London on the BBC on intelligence. And he is just full

of baloney.

You aren't equivocating on that subject at all

with us, are you?

A

Not at all. Sometime privately I will tell you about

a passage at arms I had with him at dinner in Georgetown

some years ago.

I must say - can we go off the record

just one second?

Sure.

FROM

(Discussion off the record.)

BY MR. OLSEN:

I would like now to turn to the matter of the relation

ships between the Agency and the Warren Commission in

connection with this study of the assassination of President

FORD

Kennedy. I take it that the Nosenko case was at least one

instance in which the Chief Justice was briefed on a matter

that was not covered in a general briefing or presentation to

the Warren Commission as a whole, is that true?

Yes.

Was the Nosenko matter also one that was not presented

of investigated by the staff of the Warren Commission?

A

I don't remember any more but I don't think it

was. I just don't know. I just honestly don't remember.

What was the --

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I mean, they must have had something to do with

it because

the statements made that the FBI had to come to

the Commission in some form or other must have gone through

the staff some way.

What I am asking about was did the staff of the

Warren Commission ever have access to CIA personnel or

records relating to the Nosenko matter?

A

I don't think so. I don't - it is not my impression

but this is sometime ago now and for the record -- if the

records show differently I would like to be corrected but I

don't know.

I am just asking for your best recollection.

A . I don't recall it.

Were there other matters, Ambassador, relating to

the work of the Warren Commission which were of a similar

nature, that is, where the Chief Justice was briefed on a

matter but it was not revealed to the Warren Commission as

a whole or the staff?

A I don't know, Mr. Olsen, of any others. I don't

know whether John McCone ever talked to him privately about

something or anybody else from the Agency. I don't recall

talking to him about any other matters. That is Chief

Justice Warren. 'I don't believe I ever saw him on another

occasion privately.

What position did you occupy within the Agency

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during the period of 1960 and 1961?

A

1960 and 1961 --

MR. ROETHE: That is leading up to the Bay of Pigs.

THE WITNESS: 1960, 1961. I would have been the

Chief of Operations. In other words, sort of the No. 2 man

in the Deputy Directorate for Plans.

BY MR. OLSEN:

This was immediately behind Richard Bissell?

A

Yes.

And you stayed in that position, then, until 1964,

did you say?

A

No.

Or 1965.

A

I thought that Bissell

left in 1962.

Oh, he did. About February 1962.

A

Then, I would have become the Deputy Director for

Plans at that time.

You were: then in those two positions as Director

of Operations?

A

Chief of Operations it was called.

Chief of Operations, and the Deputy Director for.

Plans was well acquainted with the entire operation on a

broad basis involving the Bay of Pigs, the planning leading

up to it?

No, not necessarily. The Bay of Pigs was Mr.

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Bissell's work on that.. I didn't have hardly anything to do

with the Bay of Pigs. There were other things to be done in

the Directorate for Plans besides the Bay of Pigs and that

was his particular baby and

I stayed out of it.

8. I see. So that . was. this true, then, all the way

up until the time he left the Agency?

•A-

Well, after the Bay of Pigs was over, I don't

know what -- how long it was

that he stayed on after that.

Let's see. The Bay of Pigs was in what, the spring?

April 1961.

A

And how long did he stay on?

About ten months.

MR. ROETHE: Not quite a year.

BY MR. OLSEN:

Did you take over any role from Mr. Bissell with

respect to the followup to the Bay of Pigs after that

disaster?

A

Well, after I became Deputy Director for Plans

there were all these ongoing operations about Cuba which

we covered yesterday with - who was it . Mr. Belin went

into this in great detail about the Mongoose Operation and

all that business, the assassination theories and how this

might be done and that might be done. We spent a long time

OCOPY FROM THE GERALD R.

FORD LIBPARY

on that yesterday afternoon.

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well, you were acquainted, then, with the fact that

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after the Bay of Pigs venture there continued to be a very

substantial amount of CIA activity among the Cuban exiles and

other Cuban emigres in the southern part of the United

States?

A

Oh, yes. We had a big station in Miami and there

was big pressure from the Kennedy Administration, from

President Kennedy himself and the Attorney General, et cetera,

to upset the Castro regime. No question about that. I mean

the records are just copious on that. The Government records

should be. I don't know where all the Mongoose records are,.

whether they were kept in the Department of Defense or here,

but there were certainly lots of records.

l. Well, the. Agency was very much involved, then,

in that effort of the Kennedy Administration?

Yes.

l. And the Agency continued to sponsor and finance and

help organize Cuban groups, revolutionary groups, anti-Castro

groups in the southern United States?

A

Yes, certainly.

Were you at that time acquainted, then, with the

fact that a great many Cubans or Cuban-Americans were

involved in these CIA organizations?

Was I aware of this?

Yes.

Yes.

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Were you aware of the fact that these Cuban groups

and individuals largely became aware of the fact that these

were CIA operations?

A

Well, the way you put the question --

Answer the question any way you would like,

qualify it or

sure. I just was - what I was trying to get at was

that this effort at the time that I believe you are referring

to was almost a Government-wide. effort. The FBI was involved.

The Immigration and Naturalization Service was involved.

The Customs was involved. The Coast Guard was involved. The

Army was involved. I believe the head of the Mongoose Task

Force was sitting over in the Pentagon.. In other words, it

was such a coordinated Government effort on this problem that

I don't know what the impression of the Cuban emigres in

Miami was in those days, whether they thought --

Was the State Department also involved?

-A.

Yes, sir. I think they helped out with an interro-

gation center down there, and so forth.

So you don't have any impression as to whether the

Cuban-Americans were invovled in these organizations, were

identifying themselves with the United States Government in

general or the CIA specifically?

A

No, I really don't know. I think they were almost

all Cuban emigres, weren't they? They hadn't had time to

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become U.s. citizens. Most of them were pretty fresh out

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Most ofthem had left Cuba in 1959 or 1960?

A

Somewhere, or were even coming out at the time this

was all going on.

Were you acquainted at that time - I am talking

from the time you took over

as Deputy Director for Plans in

1962 -- with the fact that there was among these Cuban emigres

a high level of hostility to Fidel Castro and the Castro

government?

That was my impression.

Were you also aware of the fact that there was a

high degree of interest in disposing of Castro and his

administration among these people?

A I think there was a high degree of interest on the

part of the U.S. Government for changing the Government of

Cuba. No doubt about it.

Was there also a high degree of interest in that

same objective on the part of the Cuban emigres?

A

Well, I had always thought so because most of the

emigres that were in Florida at the time had fled from

Cuba because they were anti-Castro. They obviously would like

to have gotten back under a more benevolent government and

resumed their life in their own country, so I think most of

them were rather dedicated to the cause of upsetting the

Castro

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government:

Do you know whether there was during this period

of 1962 and thereafter a great deal of talk among the Cuban

emigres of plans to assassinate Castro?

A: I don't know about plans to assassinate him. An

awful lot of suggestions were made all through this Governmen

about how one got rid of Castro, how one got rid of his

government. Whether the Cuban exiles in Miami were talking

about assassination plots or were trying to work things out

I don't recall specifically. I just recall that during this

period there was a major effort made to carry out sabotage

in Cuba, to do what we could to agitate the Castro. government,

and all kinds of plans and theories and options were put

down and discarded or tried or whatever the case might be.

A lot of theories were enunciated which weren't practical.

There was a great deal of effort being put into this. I

believe they showed me a memorandum yesterday which I wrote

after talking to the Attorney General at one point which

indicated very clearly the dissatisfaction of the President

and the Attorney General with the success of the efforts

up to that point. I mean, that is one of the exhibits in

yesterday's testimony when Mr.Belin was here.

Now, after President Kennedy was assassinated in

November 1963, and after it became known to you that the

individual, Lee Harvey Oswald, was believed very broadly to

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have done the shooting, that Oswald had had some activity

in the

Fair Play for. Cuba Committee or one-man operation in

New. Orleans, in that direction, that there were at least

reports that he had attempted to penetrate

the anti-Castro

groups in New Orleans and possibly elsewhere, did anything

get suggested to you - did you hold any conversations with

anybody about the possibility that the assassination of

President Kennedy was

a retaliation by Oswald against the

activity, the talks and plans to assassinate Castro?

A No. I don't recall discussing that with anybody.

I don't recall the thought ever having occurred to me at the

SHT

time. The first time I ever heard such theory as that

enunciated was in a very peculiar way by President Johnson.

I don't even remember what time it was. I heard him say in

my presence -- I don't know that the comment was even directed?

at me -- that because President Kennedy had been responsible

va

for the death of the President Diem of Vietnam that this was

why President Kennedy had been shot himself, and I couldn't

see how the two things

were even remotely connected, plus

the fact that I think it would be pretty hard to demonstrate

that President Kennedy assassinated Diem or shot him or

anything like that. Maybe he put into effect the course of

events but that is the only connection with the assassination

I ever heard but I never heard of retaliation by attempts

on Castro's life.

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I am not asking you about a story, Ambassador. I

am asking you whether you ever had thoughts run through your

mind as to whether or not there was a relationship between

Oswald's contacts with the Cubans and his support for the

Castro government, his attempts in September 1963 to get a

passport to Cuba, to travel to Cuba, his attempts to penetrate

anti-Castro groups. Did the connection ever enter your

mind?

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PHOTOCOPY

FROM THE

'I don't recall its having done so.

Was this matter of the Agency's of the United

States Government's plans and efforts and attempts to

assassinate Castro ever discussed with anybody. from the

Warren Commission?

A

You say attempts to assassinate Castro?

Yes.

...A

Which attempts were these that you are referring

to?

Well, I assume that the matter was gone into at some

length yesterday, that you indicated that you didn't.

A

There was some indication, et cetera, but it is

not clear to me from the question you are asking me -- I am

not fencing with you. I am just trying to answer your

question. I am just trying to find out what you are saying.

that these - there were attempts to

assassinate Castro.

Castro

still seems to be alive and well even today and what I am not

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clear about is that having. said that there were these attempts!

that they were ever carried out to the extent; or even

attempted or did they ever get any place that they would have

attracted Castro's attention. I have no evidence of this.

At least, it was never brought to my attention. Maybe it

was brought to other's attention but not to my attention.

I take it, then, that you never felt that it was

necessary of desirable that anybody from the warren Commission

ever be advised, told, about the fact that there had been

any plans developed of efforts undertaken to assassinate

Castro.

A : I didn't discuss it with the Warren Commission.

@ Did you ever participate in any conversation with

any other official within the Agency concerning the desira-

bility or non-desirability of revealing that matter to the

Warren Commission?

A Nobody ever mentioned it to me. And I wasn't:

Director of the Agency. I wasn't deciding what was going to

the Warren Commission and what wasn't. I was just answering

inquiries from the Warren Commission.

Did you ever hold some conversations with either

Mr. Harvey or Mr. Bissell about the desirability of briefing

Mr. McCone on what was going on?

We covered that yesterday. I don't recall this

conversation that is alleged to have

taken place. I don't

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recall it at all.

O In any event, to the best of your knowledge,

nobody from the Warren Commission was ever advised that

there had ever been any plans of the Agency or the U.s.

Government to assassinate Castro?

A

I didn't talk to the Warren Commission about it.

I don't know whether anybody else in the Agency might have.

The prosecution that was undertaken in New Orleans

by District Attorney Jim Garrison of a man by the name of

Clay Shaw --

A

Yes.

-- was a matter which was of some interest to the

Agency, was it not?

A

Well, my recollection of Garrison is that Garrison

was trying to subpoena me to come and testify in some trial

in New Orleans. This is what attracted my attention to

Garrison, plus his reiterated statements that the CIA was

responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy, and

that was how I knew about Jim Garrison. I obviously followed

in the papers about the Clay Shaw trial, and so forth, which

I gather finally ran its course. I forget what happened.

Was

Shaw exonerated?

Yes. I believe he was

acquitted,' if my memory

serves me correctly.

Now, was there anything beyond the attempts of Mr.

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Garrison to subpoena you that was of interest to the Agency

in connection with that case?

A

Well, I don't --

And the general statements and allegations?

A

I thought the man was sick, Garrison. I always

have thought he was sick.

He alleged, did he not, that the Agency had connec-

tions with a number of different people, including

somebody

by the name of David Ferrir and Oswald and Shaw?

A

I guess so, yes.

And others.

I guess so. Now that you mention them, these names

are familiar to me.

You undertook in connection with that case, did you

not, to have the matter checked out thoroughly within the

Agency?

PHOTOCOPY FROM

THE

GERA

EQRD

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Yes, sir.

To determine whether there were any such connections.

'I believe so. I believe so.

Had the. Agency ever had any contacts with Clay

Shaw of any nature at all?

A

'My recollection was that'at one time or other

he was approached by the Domestic Contact Service for some

purpose. Was this correct? Somehow - this will be in the

records. Somehow I had the impression that - you know what

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the --

I do know the Domestic Contact Service is --

A

Yes, and it seemed to me that at one time the

records showed he had been approached by them in some

connection or other.

Shaw was engaged in the import-export business,

was

he?

I don't remember what his business was. I remember*

he was a homosexual or something.

Was the Agency interested in preserving from dis-

closure the fact that he had been contacted by the Domestic

Contacts Service?

A

I don't recall, sir. I don't recall whether this

ever became an issue one way or the other. :

Did Garrison ever succeed in subpoenaing you?

A

No.

FORD

LIBRARY

Was anybody from the Agency ever called to testify

in that case?

A

Not that I recall.

Did the matter of the Garrison prosecution of Shaw

interest the top officials of the Agency sufficient tohave

it be the subject matter of morning conferences?

A

It might have been mentioned.. I don't really

remember whether it was in a morning conference or where it

was but it certainly would have been a topic with the wild

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..396:

assertions he was making. I remember even watching him once

on the television with my mother and he was such a convincing

son of a gun that I thought by the time it was over I had

better straighten my mother out about my life, and I have had

conversations with various people from New Orleans about

Garrison, through the years, like Eddie Hebert and Moon

Landrieu, and so forth, so I have a pretty good fix on what

kind of a character Garrison is.

Did the Agency have any contacts, according to the

studies you caused to be made within the Agency on that case,

did the Agency have connections of any nature whatever at any

time with Lee. Harvey Oswald?

A

Not that I ever heard of. I don't think that

any examination that was made ever indicated that anybody

from the Agency had been in touch with Oswald. I have never

seen one piece of paper to this effect.

And did Mr. Belin go over with you yesterday the

matter of the Agency's role in reporting on aspects of

Oswald's trip to Mexico City in September 1963?

A

I don't recall that he did yesterday.

MR. HARDY: No, we didn't go into that.

THE WITNESS: But isn't that exhaustively covered

in the Warren Commission report?

BY MR. OLSEN:

There are aspects of 'it that are not covered in

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Warren Commission report.

A

Are there? I didn't realize that.

As I gather kind of second-hand here within the

Commission's staff, the Agency had a bug in the Cuban Consulate

in Mexico City.

A

I don't think that was true.

Didn't the Agency pick up a telephone conversation

A I thought that what happened was -- I mean, look,

AdO:

this is a long time ago, and I am sure that somebody would

be delighted to pull out the records on this but my recollech

tion is that the Agency in connection with the Mexicans had

camera which photographed people going in and out of the

Cuban Embassy and that they had in connection with our over

all operations in Mexico City a centralized telephone. tap whic

tapped all kinds of lines, and one of them was the Cuban

Embassy but there was no bug in the Cuban Embassy that I

ever recall.

I see. Well, then, I appreciate your straighten-

ing me out.

A

That is my best recollection.

OK. This was a generalized telephone tap?

A

This is a pretty sensitive item but for years the

Mexicans and the: Americans have been working on the Soviets,

the Chinese, the Cubans, and so

forth, through a very large

maze of telephone taps done at a central place. I mean,

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these aren't lines put on right there at the Embassy. They

are way back in a central location.

Q And was

it this that accounted for the fact that

there was some later attempt to pick out a person who

appeared to be an American going into the Soviet Embassy?

A

Yes. There was some photographs of a man who has

never been identified. Nobody has ever figured out who it

was as far as I know. Time was spent endlessly figuring

out who this man might be. The FBI went over it, we went over

it, everybody you can think of went over it and as far as I

know, he has never been identified.

How did it happen, as you recall now from the

investigations conducted at that time, how did it happen

that his picture got picked out of all the pictures that

had been taken of people going into the Soviet Embassy and

have it accompany this report to the FBI?

A

I'm sorry. I have really forgotten what -- I think

it was an FBI photograph, too, wasn't it?

Weren't they the

ones that made the photograph of picked it out or something,

because they have an operation in Mexico, but I don't remember

now just what the division of labor between the two organi-

zations was. But in any event, let me get on with this. I

don't know why the photograph was picked out. I have no

recollection any more.

Ambassador, was there anything whatever relating

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to Agency actions in Mexico City or elsewhere in Mexico and

connected with the trip by Lee Harvey Oswald there that was

not revealed to the Warren Commission?

A

....Not that I am aware of, sir. Not that I am aware

of.

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Was there information that had been obtained from

highly sensitive sources within the Soviet Union relating

to any involvement about Lee Harvey Oswald with the KGB

of any other instrumentality of the Soviet Union that was

not revealed to the Warren Commission?

A

Not that I am aware.

Is there anything at all, Ambassador, that you know

of today relating to the investigation of the assassination

of President Kennedy that was not fully and openly revealed

to the Warren Commission except the Nosenko matter which

was a matter on which

the Chief Justice alone was briefed?

A

Sir, I would like to answer your question by saying

that I was not the Director of the Agency at that time. I

was the Deputy Director for Plans and I was, therefore, the

recipient of

many inquiries from the Commission to check

out information overseas and do a variety of things in

connection with the Commission's work. I thought we were

enormously conscientious in helping the Commission and I

thought when it was all over we had done an absolutely first-

rate job and I do not recall any of these things that you

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^ 400.

mention having been held back. I thought we were very forth-

coming with the Commission because the President, President

Johnson at the time, wanted the Commission helped in every

way possible. We did all kinds of things to help them in

their work that we probably ordinarily would not have done.

Then,

do I take it that your answer would be that

far as you are now aware, there was nothing that was held

back from the Warren Commission except the details of the

Nosenko matter as to which the Chief Justice alone was

briefed?

A

That is right. That was my distinct impression.

Are you aware of any particular, Ambassador,

in which the Warren Commission did not fairly present

to the

American public the results of its investigation that had

CIA aspects to it?

A

Not that I know of, sir. You know, I have been one

of the ones that as these

various books have come out and

allegations made, and so forth, thought to myself, my

God, how could the Warren Commission have done much more

than it did? It seemed to me they had a very good staff of

lawyers and they were very conscientious and hardworking and

the FBI helped, CIA helped, and everybody helped as far as

I know, and I always thought the Warren Commission report

was probably first class.

I haven't read it all, it is too

long.

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ia. 401

Do I take it that your answer would be that you

know of no matter that was not fairly revealed to the American

public by the Warren Commission insofar as CIA aspects of

that investigation are concerned?

A

Sir, if there was I am not aware of any..

& There are, Ambassador, certain matters of this

on this subject which we feel obliged to have made a matter

of record. It isn't that we are cross-examinng you from the

standpoint of believing something different than you believe

necessarily.

Ob, I accept that. I want to give you the best

answer I can.

I Did you ever encounter of know of any information

being turned up of Oswald having been in contact with an

organization in New Orleans or elsewhere that was in effect

being sponsored by the CIA?

A

I don't know.

A

Such as the Cuban Revolutionary Front?

I don't recall anything about this matter.

And no records of any kinds were ever turned up

indicating Oswald had contact with an Agency sponsored Cuban

group?

A

I don't know, Mr. Olsen. It may have been. It may

have been in the records. I just don't recall it.

There has been some testimony that has been received

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by the Commission --

A

Is this the Rockefeller Commission?

Yes. The Rockefeller Commission, in which an Agency,

past. Agency official, has expressed the opinion that Premier

Castro had a pretty effective intelligence operation going in

this country among the Cuban emigres. Would that accord

with your own impression?

A

I really don't know. I do know that the Russians

have done what they can to improve the Cuban Intelligence

Service but how effective the Cuban Intelligence Service has

been in its work in the United States I have no way of knowing

Has this Agency within your knowledge, Ambassador,

ever been penetrated by a foreign intelligence agent?

A

I don't know, sir. I hope not. We recognize that

we are target number 1 for the KGB. That has been told us

by various defectors. Over the years we have done our level

best to fend off efforts. We have identified what we thought

were a couple of probes in this direction at various times.

But if the Agency has ever been penetrated I am not aware of

it, although I have to say that anybody who is Director of

the Agency every day when he walks into the building wonders

whether if that is the day that somebody will be turned out

that might be a penetration of the Agency, but I know of none

Have there been any instances that you know of in

whatever capacity you have had with the Agency in which a

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debate has raged within the Agency as to whether a particular

employee is an agent of a foreign government?

A Well, I think that, you know, as we were saying

earlier, just this afternoon, from time to time there has

been

a feeling that maybe that fellow might have been a recruiter

or this individual might have been, investigation is conducted,

in an effort to see if this is the case. One hopes that the

investigation is good and adequate enough to clear the

individual. We have used the polygraph wherein there was

some question about these things. We have used all the

techniques that were reasonably available to us to try to

prevent this happening and I don't know. There we are.

MR. ROETHE: Were there occasions when you terminated

employees under your authority to terminate without any

question because you thought there may be some suspicion that

could not be eliminated?

THE WITNESS: I can't remember during my time as

Director this happening. I believe that before I became

Director there were a couple of cases that were of dubious

validity about individuals who were thought possibly to

have had some unsatisfactory connections and were terminated,

but the case was never proved against them as far as I was

aware. And I don't know of any cases that as Director I

terminated that way. At least I can't think of any. It would

be very easy to ascertain this, though, and I wish you would.

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