FILE ON FORD, CHARLES/RFK-MAFIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 01/01/0000
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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AAAA

1104-10303-10001

2022 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

Mr Waller

Shepanet

Malice

John,

O chocked with

Walt Elder (35p7)

and the says that

IG has achion an

this (Charlie Ford is

the OTR man I mentioned.)

I'll hold this memo

on case there is

hange splan.

te retapes her

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SECRET

Review Staff::

75/2723

Date

28 August 1975

TO

• :

CIA Task Force

FROM

: The Review Staff,

SUBJECT :

SSC/HSC Request

RECEIVED: Date

Walter Elder v

Time

shep

Mike Madigan, SSC staff, reports that Mr. Helms

and Mr. Halpern have testified that in response to a

request by Attorney-General Robert Kennedy, the Agency

assigned an officer to establish contacts with the under-

world to look for possible assets for use against Castro.

Sam Halpern says the officer was Charles Ford who

used the name, Rocky Siscalini.

Madigan wants any information we have on this and

would like to interview the Agency officer.

Comments:

Track down

Action

Info

SC/DCI

A/DDA

A/DDI

A/ DDO

A/DDS&T

OGC

OLC

IG

SA PRO

C57700

Enseat tian general

Hestion schodote el 8.O. 11852

catacule

:÷ 611, 188. (3)

M:.4ak 6h

.....?2

SERRET

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INTERVIEW FORM

NAME:

FORD,

Charles

ALIAS

OTR

OFFICE

OFFICE APPROVAL

Signature

DATE OF INTERVIEW

18 Sept 75

LOCATION OF INTERVIEW. Carrol Arms

TRANSPORTATION REQUIRED:

YES

FROM HEADQUARTERS

(time)

OTHER

INTERVIEWVED BY:

TELEPHONE

Date

TIMEl 120-1315

NO

Postal, Gordon Rhea, Rhett Dawson,

Fred Baron, Robert Kelly.

SUBJECT:

Cuban Operations - Task Force

Assássination of Castro - Mafia connections.

COMMENTS:

Under oath. This was second meeting.

Attached.

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD:

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Interview by Senate Committee Investigators

Director of Training

10fc

3245

19 September 1975

DDTR

Shep

marge

DTR

Chief, Division D

7B-44 Hgs.

Assistant to the Director

6D-15 Has.

ligge!

12o

Ucr 1 3 17 PH'75

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CONFIDENTIAl.

• 19 Sopteaber 1975

ME DRANDUM FOR THE RECORD

SUBJECT: Interview by Senate Cornittee Invostigators

do

On Thursday, 18 September 1975, I was interviewed for the second

time by investigators from the Senate Camittee.

The interview lasted from

approxinately 11:20 a.m. until 1:15 p.u. My testimony was recorued ard will

be transcribed.

When the transcription is ready I will be requirei to rcad

it and swear to the truthfulness of the statesients I made. Under ordinary

circunstances, a Senator would have been present to scar me in at this in-

terview. lonever, because of the televised public hearings, no senators were

available.

An unidentified wonan operated the equipment which consisted of a

Sony casette recorder and dictanhone casette recorder.

The prinary questioning

was by Mr. Postal and Mr. Gorion Rhes, the same investigators with whom I spoke

on the earlier occassion. At one point of another during the prossedings three

other nen joined us for various perious of time.

Mr. Rhott Dawson appeared

shortly after the interview began and renained for about an hour. Mr. Fred

Behren (I can't vouch for the spelling) arrived after about half an hour and

remained for ayproximately twenty minutes, having received a phone call which

took him away. Mr. bob kelly arrived shortly after Mr. Behren and stayed for

about 10 ninutes longer than hit. Behren.

The intervick was conducted in a roou

in the Carroll Arus a fomer hotel across the street from the Schate Office

Building.

The neeting began with a reminder that I could have m attorney present

and that I could refuse to answer any question which night tend to incriminate

13.

I was asted to describe in general terms my work with CLA. I told them

that I joined in 1949; that I was and an now a nember of the Office of Training;

that in 1960 or thereabouts I had a short tour of duty with the Econonic Action

Grouy in the DDP, and that I went directly fron that assigment to M1/4 in ...

Septenver of 1961.

I was asked to recall ny major activities while with the Cuban operation

and I did so. I reported that my first assigment was the handling of a Cuban

agent, one wo were using to build a nucleus of an organization for eventual

oporations into Cuba. I identified tils man as r' (Rojag] Ar. Rhea, having

hoard ay description of this activity at our earlier session, did sot pursue

this matter any further).

CONODENTIAL

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• CONFIDENTIAI

4. The investigators were interested in when I was assigned the code

nane Fiscalini; the circustances under which the name was assignat, and who

had assigned it. I tojithem I had seon a Xerox copy of the memorandun (I

saw this during a necting with lill Sturbits last Friday in Bill's office)

which requested that identification in the nane of fiscalini be assigned to me.

I explained the circunstances, which or. Postal and it. Rhea had heard at our

earlier meeting, and said that I thought the date was the end of larch, 1962.

The ciramstances involveil a contact by a New York lawyer, thru the Lepartment

• of Justice, concerning & client who had access to luba and wanted to visit

Castro to put in a special plea on behalf of the Bay of Pigs prisonors.

identifiol the individual concerned (I still can't rencber his name) as the

manager of the Toresa Hotel in New York. I did not identify the lawyer and

was not asked for his nare.

I identified a nan I met at a second mecting in

New York as "Bubbles" Abdallah. I explained that the latter individual pro-

posed to accompany the manager of the Teresa to Cuba, the manager being an

elderly gentlenan with sone difficulty in walking..

. I explained to the investi-

gators that I had no further contacts with these people after I discovered that

Abdallah was wanted, or under indictnent - I forget which - by Texas authorities

for smuggling drugs fran Mexico. Mr. Robert Kolly was clearly intorosted in

pursuing the matter of who assigned my "Code Name." I indicated that the docu-

mentation that I received came fron the office of Security but that I did not

know whether that Office sclected the nane of not.

• 5.

We went over again the story of uy contact with a Canadian named "Joe"

(I know this man's last name but have not been asked for it and have not volun-

tered it). I cescribed one meeting and a telephone call involving Joe. In the

meoting he clained that he could travel back and forth from Canada to Cuba; revealed

to me that he was interested in starting a snuggling activity involving zoods

on the proscribed list; that he kanted United States citizenship and a great

deal of money in exchange for allowing us to send naterials or tamper with sore

of the shiments if we could get the proscribed goods to Canada.

I explained to

the investigators that my interest lay in the fact that Joe clained he could

speak with Che Guevara and that I had attempted to get Joo to serve as a means

of comunication between us and Che, which Joe refused to do. As for the tele-

phone call, I told then that when Joe returned from his trip to Cuba he called

to say that bis things were going on in Cuba and we should meet right away.

Being aware that at that point we in the Agency were deep into what would later

be called the Cuban Missile Crisis, I told Joe I could not see him and that we

probably already knew what he had to tell me. That was the last I heard of Joe.

ke spent a great deal of tine going over my meetings with the ittorney

General and his interest in a small group of Cubans who clained to have sumorters

in cuba reauy to create an uprising in santiago Province. Muis is tho caso de-

scribed in paragraph 3 of my earlier nemorandum. The investigators were quite

interested in the identity of the man won I saw at the request of the Attorney

General. I went over this again in as such detail'as I could reneuber but with-

out being able to recall who this man was. I was askad if I could describe the

CONFIDENTIAS

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•CONFIDENTIAL

man and I said that I recalled him as a fairly tall man of average build with

black hair, black eyebrows and glasses. Of considerable interest is the fact

that perhays 15 to 20 minutes later I was shown an 3x 10 glossy photograph of

several people walking in front of what appeared to lie a public building and

was asked wether I could luentlly amy of the people in the picture. I could

iot. Mr. Postal pointed to tho central figure and asked if I could identify him.

I said I could rot. (The picture was of a min probably in his mid-sixtics with

floving white hair - somewhat on the order of Senator Keating - a large dowr.-

curviny nose, white, straight eye brows behind dark glasses, a sonewhat lined,

puffy face, and a slightly receding forchead accentuated by the fact that his

hair was combed straight fron front to back. The nan was wearing a dark blue

or black suit, ard one nan appeared to be accompanying him to his lett and

slightly. ahead, and another man slightly to his right and rear.

without hav

ing any reference points by which to judge, my best guess would be that the

subject was about 5'10" tall.

lie appeared to be rather heavy, perhaps in the

range of 220 pounds.

There scened to be a cantion of some sort at the bottom

of the picture but this was hidden from ny vick.) HI. Postal asked whether

the main figure in the photorraph could have been the man the Attorney General

directed ne to sec. I replied that, even allowing for the difference in years,

the man in the photograph in no wayurescabled the man I saw on behalf of thie

Attorney General.

7. Nessrs. Postal and Rhea again brought up the subject of assassination

six asked whether I had engaged in of had heard mention of, in Task Force W

or SAs, discussions on the subject of assassination either in general or

spocifically with respect to Castro. I told the investigators that the subject

came up repeatedly when we were speaking with Cubans, many of whom, having been

I said

that I had never heard of of engaged in conversations with Agency officers about

any plan the direct and only aspect of wach was the assassination of Fidel

Castro. I pointed out that on a number of occasions I dealt with Cubans who

wanted to kill Castro, but that my job was simply to attempt to extract fron

these cantucts the names or people in cuba tno might be of potential use to lis

in intelligence operations.

"I said that I had never engaged in plotting with

Cubans reganting assassination but that I had mary conversations with Cubans

regarding their desire co conduct paramilitary ac uvities nuich, as a by-product,

night well result in Castro's death.. I pointed out emphatically that the Agency's

policy prohibits political assassinstion.

I was asked if I knew Bill Hainwright and Nestor Sanchez. I told then

that I knew then both and that estor and I shared an office for a short period

near the end of my attachment with Sus. I was asked if "ARASH"' meant anything

to me and I replied in tho nogative.

This was follored by whether (Bill and 3

Nestor had discussed with me or mentioned an operation of theirs involving a

high level officer of the Cuban soverment, a nilitary ran who made frequent

trips out of cuba.

Again I could only reply in the negative. I ailed the

Juxtaposition of Bill/and N'estor in the context of a single oporation surprised

CONFIDENTIAl:

3/mc

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CONFIDENTIAL

ne inasnuch as Ishelioved Nestor to have been involved only in psychological

oncrations and B311/working at collecting foreign intelligence.

asked if the wofd "NOTS" acant anything to me and I said it did but that all

I could say was that it had to do with counterintelligence activities. Mr.

Rhea aster me wiether I could say that tho "ADIS" activity was concerned with

contacting Cuban ciles in the jiani area and l indicated that this was my

understanding. The subject was not pursued further.

9. I was asted about my visit to Now Orleans (which I had mentioned during

the previous session) and I explained that these two trips were for the purpose

of attcruting to find ways of establishing chamels of commication between the

exilei Cubans in Now Orleans and their friends in Cuba. I indicated that I hau

been able to come up with a very fine prospect, a Cuban, and that I had turnod

him over to one of our FI Case Officors. I also said that I had several dis-

cussiorswith an incrican whom I doclined to identify under the general ground

rule relating to sources of infornation. lessrs. Postal and Rhea asked if I

would respond atfimatively if they were to suggest sone initials which night

correspond to the name of my American contact. I agreed to do this but the

initials which they mentioned meant nothing.

then!) I volunteered the initials of my contact, "FJ"

, and this produced a blank

expression on the part of both investigators and a shrug of Mr. Phea's shoulders.

The final question I was asked was whether I had any knowledge of the "Ponchar-

train Operation". I told them that I knew where Lake Ponchartrain was, and

that's as far as it went.

10.

Ne spent a little tine on the subject of General Landsdale. I ad-

mitted I had attended one meeting in Gencral Landsdale's office in the Pentagon.

I was asked whether anyone else was there and said that I could recall only one

name, cornelius koosevelt, but that there were two other poople at the noeting.

In response to a series of questions about what was discussed at that meeting,

I said that General Landsuale was interested in various paranilitary possibilities

and that my role was linitod to giving a quick assessment of whether ve had the

agent assets to assist in carrying out the various possible operations that

General Lindsdalo suggested.

11. I was asted whether the term "Mongoose" meant anything to me and I

initicatail that it was a general tern used to refer to a composite of planned

operational activitics.

I said that I had no knowledye of any specific activity

being planned under this nane and further explained that it was possible that

some of iny Cuban contacts night have been taken over by other Case Officers for

usc under "Mongoose"' but that I had no direct knowleilge of such having been done.

12. Mr. Robert Kelly exprossed considerable interest in the organization of

Task Force li. It one point he asked how tuny echclons there were betwcen me and

Mr. Heles. I told them that I reported to Bill Marvey; that my title was Special

Assistant; that Nr. Harvey reported to MI. liels; that I frequently received

CONFIDENTIAI -

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CONFIDENTIAl:

assigment and reported to San lialpern; and that occasionally I undertook

tass 1or truce Cheever, tarvey's deputy, although. trese tasis t'ere concema

with tha workings of lask force i and did not involvo contact with the Cubans.

I was asked if there here any Special Assistant other than me in Task Force W

Hand I replicd that it. Zogby, C/ul/4 prior to Nr. Harvey's arrival on tho scene,

had been retained as a menber of Task Force W.in an SA status. I said that

there may well have been others bocause people would show up fron time to tine for

short tours of duty for several conths or so and then depart to carry on

their work elsewhere, but that I could not recall anyone by name at the present

time.

13. I was asked whether I used the name Fiscalini in circuustances other

than those described. I said that I frequently carricd identification in

that nure and used it on several occasions. I lescribed one occasion which was

an amusing one-time contact with no bearing on any iten of interest to the commit-

toc.

The investigator asked whether I had ever contacted Cubans in Miani ani I

replieil in the negative.

14. I was asked if I had ever made contacts with people in New York City

other than those described. I said that indeed I had but that in one case, al-.

though the man in question lived in er York, the meeting took place in Newark,

New Jersey.

In response to a question I said that the leal was provided by the

I declined to identify the man involved on the grounds of the sensitivity

of his position at that time and the fact that I do not nor at present where he

is or what he is oing.

(This was the beginning of the unsuccessful ECO Opera-

tion which should be recoried somewhere in the Task Force W or Mani Station

files.)

15. I was asked wliether I had any Inowledge of a neeting of the Attorney

General and Cuban exile leaders in the sumer of 1962. I said that such a

meeting would not lave been unusual, in my opinion, but that I had no knowledge.

of. such a seotingeI pointed out that it was conson practice among many cuban

leaders to try to acquire the support, or at lcast the appcarance of support, of

U.S. agencies and prominent U.S. political figures. I further stated that

nuserous attempts were nade to set the U.S. to support a Cuban governnent-in-

• exile and that I had had one necting in Washington with a Cuban leader who was

constantly attampting to got us to support him as head of such an arrangement.

I identified tis lan as liario Garcia-kohly and adlel that he was sentenced to

prison soue ycars later for counterfeiting Cuban pesos.

viously rang a bell with Mr. Postal as he repeated it aloud in a surprised tone

of voice, ¡lowever, iir. Postal did not pursue the natter.

16. Some of the other topics which were surfaced in comection with the

above major itons: I was asked wether I nor the following people or recognized

the nanes.. fiy responses are sumarized in the parentheses and I can't vouch for

all the spellings):

CONFIDENTIAL.

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(1) Carlos Teppedino (never heard of him)

Jose Orta (never heard of him)

(3)

Sam Giancana (read about him in newspaper; never met him)

(4)

Roselli (read about him in the newspaper; never met him)

(5)

Trafficante (read about him in newspaper; never met him)

(6)

Manuel Artime (a prominent member of Cuban brigade; never met him)

(7)

Big Jim O'Connell (heard about him in the newspaper; never met him)

I was asked whether "No Name Key"meant anything to me and

I gave a negative response.

I was asked if I had visited Chicago in the course of my work

and I told then I had not.

17.

This is probably the appropriate point to underline my conviction that the

main, if not the only,

point of concern to the investigators is whether I was

directed to sally forth and initiate contact with members of the underwordd in

the U.S. and who directed me to do so.

Their interest is even more pointedly

focussed on whether I had anything to do with the Rosselli, Giancana, et al,

"operations". Once again, I explained that my job was broader thanithis by a

long shot, and that I was never directed to take the initiative in establishing

contacts with the underworld. I said that several, probably no more than five

or six, of the people with whom I dealt were somewhat "shady" characters, in

some cases with recorded run-ins with law enforcement agencies.

Charles D. Ford

Chief, Training Services Staff, OTR

CONFIDENTIAL

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