TRANSCRIPT:REEL #2. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN, 26 JULY 1965.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/26/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Date: 01/31/01

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RECORD SERIES : JFK

• AGENCY FILE NUMBER : NOSENKO RECORDS

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

Released under the John

F. Kennedy

Assassination Records

Collection

Act of 1992

144 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 53216 Date:

06-14-2017

ORIGINATOR

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TITLE :

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TRANSCRIPT: REEL #2. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN,

26 JULY 1965.

DATE:

PAGES

07/26/65

91

SUBJECTS

NOSENKO

DERYABIN

NBR

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CLASSIFICATION

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DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 01/31/01

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JFK-M-24: F35 2001.01.31.10:58:56: 353084: NOSENKO NOT

BELIEVED RELEVANT (NBR) : ATTACHED IS HSCA STAFF REVIEW

FORM DATED 3 MAY 1978. SEE F34 FOR KEY TO TRANSCRIPT.

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-SECT

TRANSCRIPT

NOSENKO Interrogation

26 July 1965

RETIRED FILE

JOB

81-00/75R

BOX- 2 FOLDER 3

DESENSITIZED

per 001 70-17.

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MATERIAL REVIEWED AT CIA HEADQUARTERS BY

HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS STAFF MEMBERS

FILE TITLE /NUMBER/ VOLUME:

TRANSCRIPT

NOSENKO INTERROGATION

REEL #E

86 JULY 1965

INCLUSIVE DATES:

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ROOM:

DELETIONS, IF ANY:

DATE

RECEIVED

4/24/78

May 3,78

DATE

RETURNED

4/26/78

REVIEWED BY (PRINT NAME )

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SECRET

Reel # 2°

26 July 1965

( (Reels #1 and #2 "overlap"))

TRANSLATION

B. SAVCHENKO (A SAVCHENKO) ((was)) Chairman of the KGB in Mondavia

( (the Moldavian SSR)) .

He was in Moldavia.

A. You are certain?

B. Yes, absolutely.

A. You know his first name (imya)?

B. No, I do not remember.

I know -- ((he is a)) general.

SAVCHENKO - he was in Moldavia.

He was, ((wait)) one minute, SAVCHENKO was after BERIYA; SAVCHENKO

was at one time Deputy ((Minister)), here, after BERIYA, he was a

Deputy ((Minister)) for us ((MVD)).

A.

Where?

B. In the MVD, in the MVD, the MVD, he was a Deputy ((Minister)).

And, to my thinking, there even

was

some period, when SEROV came,

he was under SEROV, and then he removed him and he was for

many

years, in recent years he has worked all of the time in Moldavia, as

Chairman of the KGB ((there)), yes.

A. You know this exactly?

B.

Yes; that SAVCHENKO has been in Moldavia all these years, exactly.

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A. Let us suppose that there was still another (yeshche odin) SAVCHENKO.

B. Precisely this SAVCHENKO, who at one time was Chief of the First

Directorate, Chairman of the KGB in Moldavia.

And I do not know any other SAVCHENKO.

A. Do you know some other SAVCHENKO?

B. I do not know.

I think that this is that one who at

((the Ukrainian SSR)), a Minister.

one time was

in the Ukraine

A. Now we are talking about that one who was in the Ukraine and that one

who was chief of Intelligence, and so forth.

B.

This one; he is in Moldavia, until recently (do poslednego vremeni)

in Moldavia.

A. I simply am asking, in a friendly way, are you certain of this or not?

B. It is precisely this SAVCHENKO ((whom)) I have in mind.

A. I now am asking: Is there another SAVCHENKO there?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Have you ever heard of another Lit Gen (General-leytenant) SAVCHENKO?

B. I not (ne)... this one who ((is)) in Moldavia, Chairman of the KGB.

A. I simply am asking, have you ever heard of another Lt Gen SAVCHENKO?

B. I do not know.

I do not remember.

A. Let us assume that the SAVCHENKO who was chief of Intelligence and

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worked in the Ukraine and, in your opinion, ((is)) Minister in

Moldavia, ((that)) his true first name (nastoyashcheye imya) ((is))

Sergey Romanovich....

B. I do not know.

A.

...Lieutenant General....

B. Lieutenant General...•

A.

All the trouble ((is)) in the following, you understand -- you

already have repoeated (povtoryayete) this several times and you

say

that he was Minister in the Ukraine, and so forth.

You know

that in Moldavia, the Minister for State Security or the

Chairman of

the Committee for State Security, in your time and now

to the present day - is (sidit), or, in any case, last year, was:

Lt Gen SAVCHENKO, Ivan Tikhonovich.

B. (IG) ... SAVCHENKO, what his first name ((is)) I do not know.

But I do not know his first name.

A., You see, I want to say, when you are not certain or do not know....

B. ((Interrupts)) So, but more I do not know the first name;

I am

saying, SAVCHENKO....

A. You say that that SAVCHENKO who previously was in the Ukraine ((and))

then was chief of Intelligence, now he is Minister in Moldavia....

B. In Moldavia, yes, this one.

A. But I want to tell you that there is another Lt Gen ((SAVCHENKO)) and

not this SAVCHENKO, but ((another)) SAVCHENKO; I have given (nazval)

you both correct first names; in Moldavia, the Chairman of the KGB

whom you know as this one, the other SAVCHENKO, whose name ((is))

Ivan Tikhonovich, who also at one time was a KGB employee and at

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one time, an employee of the CPSU Central Committee (Ts K KPSS).

Therefore, I am asking you whether you have heard something interesting

with regard....

B. ((Interrupts)) SAVCHENKO -- that is the last name (familiya), and

that is what I said.

The question is (stoit) in the following: that - you see

-- it is

hard

to believe that

a person

—- as they say

- who worked there 11

years

either tries to say that he does not know something or

wants

to show that he knows.

B.

No, what I know, I tell, only what I know.

A. Between us, the SAVCHENKO who was in the Ukraine, in Intelligence

and so forth and so forth, Sergey Romanovich, everyone (vse sobaki)

in the whole world knows him.

B. Well, tell ((me, if it is)) no secret.

A. Everyone also knows that SAVCHENKO whom you do not know - or wish

to say that you do not know - because his name is everywhere in the

newspapers, without any cover; the question is (stoit) in the

following: that, you understand, if you do not know what happened

with the SAVCHENKO who was chief of Intelligence, etc., if you do

not know that it is precisely he in Moldavia, then please do not

say....

B. ((Interrupts)) I am telling you what I know, as (kak) I know.

Why do you pose the question so?

A. I pose the question so, because there are two SAVCHENKOs, and

((it was)) not that SAVCHENKO of whom you

speak

that was

in Moldavia,

but quite another, and I want to pin down (podvesti)

here that you as

an employee of ll years must know the other, who also is a lieutenant

general, ((and)) why you do not know him.

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B. I do not know this.

I heard the last name (familiya), and ((that is)) all.

A. If you have heard this last name (familiya), then you must have

heard the last name (familiya)

of that one a hundred times more.

B. Maybe I did hear ((it)), but I do not know.

I am telling you that I do not know and that neither one of (ni odin

iz) the SAVCHENKOs ever was my chief, ever.

A. He stood closer, closer to the Second Chief Directorate than this one.

B. Not one of my, of these SAVCHENKOs was my chief.

My chief was FEDOTOV, SHUBNYAKOV, GRIBANOV; I am saying ((that))

these ((were)) the big chiefs.

A. I do not think that you are trying to understand me well.

B. I am trying to understand you well.

How is this - I am not trying to understand you well?

It is in my interests (Eto v moikh interesakh).

A.

I am trying to explain to you that if you, as an employee who worked

((there)) for ll years, know the SAVCHENKO who was in the Ukraine,

who was chief of Intelligence, who then found himself with neither

business nor position, what happened to him, then you name him,

((say)) that he ((is a)) Minister in Moldavia.

I am telling you -- and this ((is)) established by

the facts,

even

Soviet newspapers, including the names, etc. etc....

B. Of course.

Deputies are elected, there ((are)) Soviets (tam sovety) ....

A. ... Another person, but not this person.

My question: What do you know happened to the SAVCHENKO who was

chief of Intelligence?

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B. I do not know.

I know, as I told you, that there was a SAVCHENKO... in the KGB,

the MVD, that there was a SAVCHENKO, the name SAVCHENKO, General

SAVCHENKO was chief of Intelligence and then SAVCHENKO, before this

SAVCHENKO, supposedly, was, well, a Minister in the Ukraine, that

this SAVCHENKO ((is)) Chairman of the KGB in Moldavia.

That is all I know about SAVCHENKO.

Which SAVCHENKO?

A. You made this conclusion yourself, or you knew ((this)) when you

were

working?

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, when I was working, I knew;

here I heard a

little bit, here

a

little bit of something.

A. From where (1G) .

Because each person, Soviet, who works in intelligence, in counter-

intelligence, especially in recent times, he knows the difference

exactly and he knows both SAVCHENKOs from top to bottom (kak

obluplennyye)..

B. I think not (Ya ne dumayu), because....

A. Both of them are lieutenant generals, both are lieutenant generals,

both are connected with intelligence and counterintelligence.

So, the question is (stoit): either you were there and must know

exactly, or you were not there and do not know.

B. I said what I know.

A. We will say this: that I am saying what I know...:

B. Of course....

A. I certainly am not trying to contradict the facts, to tell you

something superfluous or to wring out something unusual; I am saying

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only that which in fact....

B. In fact, facts.

And I am telling you that I did not know this....

((XG - A and B speak at the same time))

A.

...To explain these facts articulately.

B. You may (mozhete) know millions of other things which I do not know.

But I know millions of things which you do not know.

Well, what do you want from me?

A. Tell ((me)), please, that

a person

knows GOGLIDZE, MASLENNIKOV ....

-- if he had worked 1l years,

B. ((Interrupts)) I heard.

I do not know, I do not know, but I have heard the name.

A. ... Must know SAVCHENKO, Ivan Tikhonovich, also.

Working in the Second Chief Directorate, even if you did not write

any kind of reports (('letters" - pis'ma)) to him, probably some

kind of papers (bumagi) came from him every week.

I do not want to tell you....

B. ((Interrupts)) ((I did not see any)) papers over SAVCHENKO'S

signature (za podpis'yu SAVCHENKO) .

A. If you did not see ((such papers)), then again there is (stoit) a

big question:

were you there at this time?

The whole question lies in this.

I am not trying to go into something deeply (zalazit' kuda-to gluboko);

I

simply am taking those persons and figues who are so outstanding

(kotoryye prosto

s nog

sshibatel'nyy) ((that)) one cannot be mis-

taken; a person who....

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B. ((Interrupts)) As it is said, we are talking in different languages,

although ((we both are speaking)) Russian.

We are talking initwo different languages.

You want me to understand, you want me to go by the same method of

thought as you do.

I cannot; I am going as I can.

That which I have here ((B points to his head)), that which I

remember, that which I know.

A. Let us return again to one small question.

You affirmed (utverzhdayete), only several minutes ago, ((that))

having gone to work in the MGB or the MVD in March 1953, you received

for some time (nekotoroye vremya) a basic pay (oklad) of 1,700 rubles,

plus, ((for)) rank - 500 rubles.

I do not want to accuse you of lying or of lies or of something else,

but all of this contradicts the facts.

In the KGB - on, the MVD, at that time - they already were not

receiving ((pay)) for rank in March, and therefore you could not have

received money ((ikh: den'gi)) for rank when you started work (postupil

B. I know that they did not receive ((pay)) for rank fôr a year (v

techeniye goda) and ((then)) they began

to receive ((Pay)) for rank

again, and ((that is)) all.

When, what dates, I do not remember.

A.

Understand ((me)); this is no explanation:

not remember...."

"When, what dates, I do

B. ((Angrily)) But I cannot give you ((the dates)) .

And if I do not know, I do not know,

I do not know.

A.

Nowyou have said that you do not know.

Five minutes ago....

B. ((Interrupts)) I said

that they gave ((pay)) for rank, then they

stopped giving ((pay)) for rank, and then again

it was returned

(vernulos') anew.

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A. If you say that they accepted you in March, then you could not

have received ((pay)) for rank, because at this time they already

were not paying ((for rank)).

They already were not paying.

Well, then, they did not pay for a year, and then they began again

to pay for rank.

A. You told me that you received 1,700 ((rubles)), plus 500 for rank.

I asked you three times:

"Are you certain?"

Yés.

Exactly.

B. Of course, I am certain... later ((they began to give)) me again

1,700 and 500..

A. We are not talking of later, now.

I am saying that

in March you began work and you told me that your

first pay was, as a case officer, 1,700, plus 500, for rank.

In March and April, etc. - I do not want to say until when -- they

were not paying ((for rank)).

B. But how strange you are (No, kakoy zhe Vy strannyy)!

But I do not want to deceive you - I received ((pay)) for rank,

they receive 1,700 for position (za dolzhnost') and 500 for rank;

((wait)) one minute; I am not deceiving you, 1,700 for rank as a

case officer, that is, 1,700 for position, basic pay; 500 -- ((for))

rank (pogony).

For a period of about a year I did not receive this 500 for rank;

I received only the 1,700 plus longevity pay (vysluzhnyye) -- this

longevity (vysluzhnyye) ((pay)), secrecy ((pay)), and so forth.

I have no intention of

deceiving you.

A. We were saying that you started (postupili) in March. and immediately

they

paid

you 1,700; I am not posing a question about this money;

1,700 rubles was

the basic pay of a case officer.

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В.

It is.

It was and is.

A.

True.

It was; and, at one time, they were paying for rank.

They paid a lieutenant 500; everyone knows this; and ((they did so))

in the Army, also.

в.

For

a senior ((lieutenant)), 600.

This ((was)) usual (Eto kak obychno), yes, yes.

A .

But the question is (stoit) ((in that)): they already were not

paying ((for rank)) in March.

B. But, you see, you... such hooks you put out (takiye kryuchoki stavite).

A. This is not a hook....

B. ((Interrupts)) It is a hook.

A.

...It is a fact which, you understand, you could in no way get around.

B: But the important fact is ((only)) in that they did not pay me

for

rank for

a year and ((then)) again ((paid me)) 1,700, 500 and

longevity pay (vysluzhnyye).

Well, but when, what, well, I do not remember.

A. In any case,

received....

a person

-- if he really came from the Navy, where he

B. ((Interrupts)) there, for rank, yes....

A. ... And now he had come here, perhaps his ((pay)) for position ((is))

higher, but he will remember very well ((that)) they do not pay him

for rank.

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B. Understand

me; you again do not want me, you do not want, neither

you nor your colleagues before you, here are questions ((which))

somehow ((are)) not what you want, to me such questions....

((XG - A and B speak at the same time))

...Well, I did not even pay attention to money.

You asked me - ((wait)) one minute, excuse me - you asked me: but

you asked me how much is (budet) the basic pay (oklad)?

I said: no.

Why?

A. I did not ask more.

B. No, ((wait)) one minute, buy why?

And do you know why?

Because at that time

it was not (ne stoyal) a question of money.

At that time,

it was not important (("did not play a role" - roli ne

igral)) for me.

A. I certainly am not posing a question about

money.

Whether it was or was not important.

I asked you two or three times and you repeated.

B. 1,700, 500, plus ((pay for)) secrecy, there, etc.

A.

If you began (postupili) in March you could not have received ((pay))

for rank.

Well, then. well, if they were not giving it from the time (s

momenta) of STALIN's death, then I began to receive ((it)) after a

year.

For a year they did not pay it.

1,700, 500 and ((pay for)) secrecy, longevity.

A. Let us

say so!

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If you really were working there, and I am trying to make it so that

everything you are saying looks like the truth ((i.e., I am trying

to make sense and truth out of your statements)) .

B. Yes, and I ((am trying)) to say only the truth (eye).

A. Ah, you are trying?

B. Well, I am trying.

A. It does not turn out that way; they stopped paying not only after

STALIN, but at some other time.

You, having worked there, must know this.

One can in no way disregard this.

I certainly do not deny the fact, we will not speak with exactitude

(tochno), ((of)) how much they were paying and to whom for secrecy,

for language, for longevity, etc.

It is not so important; a person can forget, ((whether)) they paid

him 10 or 15% and some kind of increment (nadbavka) for language,

for secrecy or for longevity, etc.; but when they took away ((the

pay)) for rank -- so - this is very sensitive (chuvstvitel'no).

B. For the officer it was very sensitive and very important....

((XG - A and B speak at the same time))

A.

For you, this, you say that this had no significance; O.K., so;

but for the ordinary mortal officer, you know, if a person

is a

colonel, this right away…..

в. 1,300....

A .

... 1,300 rubles.

B. Of course; with longevity ((pay)) (s vysluzhnymi)....

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A. With longevity ((pay))...

B.

...This then runs to 1,600... well, 1,600.

A .

Therefore, for ((this)) one reason only, I have posed this question.

B. I do not remember when.

I tell you that they paid me 1,700 as

a case officer, 500

rank.

Was it a year?

In the beginning, a year, whether at the end of 1953 or the beginning

of 1954, but perhaps you

are right, from the beginning of 1953,

right from the moment, for approximately a year they were not paying

for rank.

Then again they began to pay

for rank. ((Pauses))

Look, you are building

on this

some kind of (1G) that I did not

exactly say this, this.

A. Well, you see, they do not forget such things...

In this question ((there is)) no exactness, because I am trying to

get at only the fact itself: you said that when you went to work

you received ((pay)) for rank, but at this time they were not paying

((for rank)).

I can in no way understand how you could have received ((it)).

That is my question (Vot moy vopros).

I think that this, such a simple....

B. For a year (Na protyazhenii goda) I did not receive ((pay)) for rank

((Laughs)); the rest ((of the time)), I received ((it)).

When did

I not receive ((it))?

I do not remember.

But all ((personnel)) did not receive ((it)), not only I.

A. The same question.

Of course, in common life ((and)) work, perhaps it is not so

important about SAVCHENKO.

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But, you understand, for me -- who worked there more than you - and

for you -- who, as

is said, worked there -- ((to know that there are))

two SAVCHENKOs is the same, everyone knows, it is the same as knowing

GRIBANOV - the same, the same.

B. ((In a low voice)) No.

A. Absolutely the same.

B. ((In a low voice)) No.

A. And you, when you are talking about one and you make a mistake - let

us say, you mistake the name and so forth, you do not know another,

"ate creas

but you do not know another - it is in no way possible to believe

that a person who had worked ((there)) 11 years would not know, '

because he also ((i.e., the other SAVCHENKO)) is a lieutenant general

and a big wheel (bol'shaya shishka).

One can in no way disregard ((this)).

B. Excuse me; may I tell you one thing: I began to work, I came as

a case officer, I worked (rabotayu) as a case officer in 1953, 1954,

1955, 1956, and -- excuse me for the vulgar expression - I needed

to know SAVCHENKO, Marshal TIMOSHENKO and someone ((else, like them))

as I needed to know my ass (mne do zhopy bylo SAVCHENKO...) ((i.e.,

it was absolutely unnecessary)).

For me, I came, I began (nachinayu)

to work.

Later, later, I became deputy chief of

section (otdeleniye); when

((?)); from

1958, it was important for me here

to whom, in what

name, to write a paper (bumagu pisat'), to

whom, something

else.

But working as a rank and file employee, for me

it was, ah....

A. I agree.

That you had no great interest....

B. Yes, and not only ((no great)) interest; even....

Well, it was remote (nedosyagayemo) .

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Well, you understand, an ordinary employee.

Inaccessible (nedosyagayemo) •

A.

The problem is in that he of whom you are speaking is not ((there)),

but the one (tot) who is working there 25 years and who is there

today you do not know.

This is the problem (Vot v chem vopros).

You understand.

Because if you were working there, you would tell me now exactly

what the second SAVCHENKO did and, immediately, the difference

between

them, because everyone (kazhdaya sobaka) knows.

B. I know one SAVCHENKO, to my thinking, this is ((the only)) one,

perhaps, perhaps I

am mistaken here ((when)) I give you the positions

(dolzhnosti) in which both worked, perhaps.

A. ((in English)) No, no.

They both were working all of the time in different ((positions))

and ((in English)) no connections.

Of course, by way of work there were ((in English)) connections,

but this SAVCHENKO of whom I am speaking had, had more business with

the Second Chief Directorate than with the First.

We will return to this in due time.

B.

Good.

As you wish.

A. I want, I want now (kak raz)....

B. ((Interrupts)) I did not write to anyone, I did not read papers

over the signature of SAVCHENKO....

One minute, one minute, one minute,

one minute....

A. ((Tries to speak,

but B interrupts))

B. May ((I)) say?

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One minute.

A. Yes.

B. ((He is thinking hard.)) I think ((that)) under (u) SEROV, under

Ivan SEROV, a deputy was... SAVCHENKO... ((he thinks again))

SAVCHENKO.

Well, you understand, it did not happen that I (ne prikhodilos' mne)

associated ((with him)).

No.

I do not know, I do not know, I do not know, I do not remember, I

do not remember.

I

afraid to say anything (Boyus' chto-to skazat'); I do not

remember.

I do not want ((to)).

A. You see, this question ((is)) so -- as it were -- simple, when

everyone (kazhdaya sobaka) knows these two people, especially in

the KGB, beginning from the small ((i.e., lowly)) and up to the

great; they have beenworking (rabotayut) there a long time now,

and they have the same names - only different ((first names and))

patronymics;

they have the same rank (zvaniya), they have the same

rank.

And, of course, when you as a person, you have come here, etc., and

you talk about one - let us say, they made a mistake, they put

simply SAVCHENKO in this place, where the other ((is)); but, not

knowing about the other - it certainly is almost impossible to

believe that you worked there such a long time, ll years.

Because without knowing this person (bez znaniya etogo cheloveka),

it is in no way possible.

B.

Well, I do not know.

I am telling you what I know.

( (That is)) all.

A. He was not under some kind of great (velikaya) cover at that (v svoye).

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B. Yes, he ( (was)) not (Da, net) .

A. ... Time he was... in the Central Committee of the Communist Party

of the Soviet Union (TSK KPSS), which everyone also knew there, and

he came here, ((where)) also everyone knew him.

Now, he is the Chairman of the KGB of the Moldavian SSR.

In any event, he was ((there)), a year ago, as far as we know.

B. He has been (sidit) there in Moldavia many years.

And it is thought (schitayetsya) that he soon will leave.

He ((is)) in such a trap (zagon), a trap ((i.e., he has been "stuck

away" or "pigeon-holed")).

We1l, (Vot, vot); he must ((go)) on pension.

A. You are saying this about your (o svoyem) SAVCHENKO; I am talking....

B. About the Moldavian.

A. About the Moldavian, of whom I am speaking, but not that one of whom

you are speaking....

B. But I do not know the first name, patronymic.

SAYCHENKO, General SAVCHENKO.

A. ...And therefore it is rather difficult to say ((whether he is)) in

a trap or not in a trap; perhaps that SAVCHENKO who was in intelligence

is in a trap, or maybe they threw him out long ago.

You must know better about this.

B. I have in mind the Moldavian ( (SAVCHENKO)) .

A. I have in mind that one who was in intelligence and was in the

Ukraine.

But that SAVCHENKO, of whom you know absolutely nothing -- he ((is))

Chairman in Moldavia, but not that one

of whom you were speaking in

the beginning and several times later.

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But of course it is hard to say; put yourself in the position of

those people who were talking with you,

when it is known as a

certainty, it is 100% clear as in broad daylight that it is not

that SAVCHENKO, but the other you do not know; it is hard to believe

that you yourself were there.

((in English)) You see?

B. Well, see,.

see.

I am saying ((it)) as I remember and that which I know.

A. I am trying to see and to find a common language so that you begin

more or less to

speak more plausibly, but,

we take one question,

another question, ((and)) there ((appear)) small, but in some cases

quite large, mistakes which one cannot in any way believe.

I want to repeat this thing again - you told me straight out that

you received ((pay)) for rank when they did not pay for rank at

this time.

How can I believe that you were there at this time?

B. Ha, ha, ha, ha; you know, in general, you are a fine fellow,

telling

jokes (anekdoty rasskazyvat')....

But why, for what?

You do not know when I was there or was not there; well, you are

saying funny things; well, really, we are grown men (vzroslyye lyudi).

I do not know.

Well, ((if)) you do not believe, then you do not believe me.

Why, then, talk with me; why, then, talk with me, in general, and

drag

this out (tyanut' etu lyamku) ((when)) once you do not believe

me?

((If)) you do not believe, then you do not believe.

I cannot jump higher than my head.

A. You are trying.

B.

No, no; I see that you are trying -- as your colleagues before you

expressed ((it)) - to

find some kind of hooks (kryuchochki)

and to

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create a base (sozdavat' bazu) on them.

Well, ((it is)) not this ((which is)) important.

Well, ((it is)) important not that ((B's surname)), this ((B's

surname)), who sits here, said that from March ((onward)) he received

500 ((rubles)) for rank, 1,700 for, ah, basic pay for position

(dolzhnostnoy oklad).

"But in March of 1953 they were not giving ((pay)) for rank.

"Ha! We have caught him."

Well, you catch me; let us discuss ((this as it is)) in reality

(po-zhiteyski), as it is in life.

I tell you: I received 1,700 as a case officer,for rank -- 500.

For a year (V techeniye goda) they were not giving ((pay)) for rank.

Which?

About, it seems to me, I think, '50, at the end of 1953, the

beginning of 1954, they

were not giving ((pay)) for rank.

But, again, I do not remember.

A. In my opinion, so, in my opinion, you know exactly when they were

not giving ((pay for rank)).

I want you to dig up this dog (Ci.e., tell the truth - etu sobaku

razryt')).

You yourself know....

B. Understand (Poymite), if, so, you do not give me ((a chance) to

say, I told you that from such-and-such a time until such-and-such

they were not giving us ((pay)) for rank, and we now would have

(ne stoyalo...) by no questions of any kind and we would not be

dwelling on this, if I had known ((when)) .

A.

A KGB employee would say ((it)) so,

that they were paying from

such-and-such a time until such-and-such ((a time)) and from such-

and-such ((a time)) they did not pay.

B. Yes; why are you laughing (Vy chto smeyetes')?

( (B laughs))

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You want to say that I ((did not serve, was not working, there))....

A. One must ((i.e., I have to say so)).

B. Well, this is a joke (anekdot).

A. ((in English)) Well.

Understand ((it)) as you wish ((i.e.,

take it however you like)).

Understand ((it)) as you wish.

B. You are a man of great humor ((i.e., you have a great sense of

humor - Vy s bol'shim yumorom chelovek)).

Honestly, of great humor.

A. We will talk more about humor (My yeshche ob yumorom pogovor im).

We have time enough.

B. Of course. ((Pauses) )

Well, if I knew exactly, I would tell you: exactly from this month,

until such-and-such a month, they were not giving ((pay)) for rank.

A. I will remind ((you)) only one time more: the point is not that I

am questioning you, that you must know exactly, that they stopped

((paying for rank)) in that month, but they began again to give

((pay for rank)) in this ((month)); this certainly is not the point.

Even if you were in error by 5 months on this, screw it (khuy s nim),

I certainly would not bother (ya sovershenno ne bespokoyus') about

this....

B. Yes, right.

A.

...One thing bothers me; you say you started ((work)) (postupili)

in March....

B. In March.

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... ((That)) they began to pay you 1,700 ((rubles)) and 500, when --

in this time - they were not paying ((for rank)).

This is the problem (Vot vopros).

B. (IG) what, I said that they began to pay, even if (puskay) they

began to pay me later... both... both 1,700 and 500; well, anyway,

I began in March (nu, ya to nachal s Marta).

I am telling you that they did not pay for a year, approximately;

for rank (za pogony), for rank, for a year; then,

again, thank the

Lord (slave tebe Gospodi), they returned ((the pay)) for rank.

Everyone took a good breath (Ves' narod vzdokhnul) and said (1G).

A. If we take ((this)) further, there are many - I do not want to say

that perhaps this

was forgotten, etc. -- there

are many

other

documents which can remind ((us)) when they were paying, when they

were not paying....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

...The Komsomol card (bilet), Party card, TDY (komadirovochniye),

leave (otpuska) ((documents))....

B. Right.

A. ... And so forth and so forth.

Even if a person is not interested in money, but this for him (no

eto u nego) ....

B. In the Komsomol card....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

It is obvious (vidno), obvious, right.

A.

..Everywhere it is obvious.

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B. Well, for a year they did not pay.

They were not paying somewhere there in the beginning of my work.

((That is)) all.

Now, you, of course, are trying somehow to tell me what I am seeking,

some kind of trick (kaverznoye) word, etc.;

but just a few minutes

ago you said that they stopped ((paying for rank)) somewhere in the

end of 1953 and began again in 1954....

B. ((Interrupts)) (?In my time (Pri mne), in my time,

I do not remember?)

A. ...In the beginning of my ((i.e., B's)) work, they stopped paying

((for rank)).

B. Yes; you are not telling me; I am saying: perhaps, I do not know,

I suppose that for a year they did not pay ((for rank)), as I am

telling you.

A. I know exactly that, not in March, not in April, but still sometime

before this, they stopped paying.

This is exact.

B. They did not pay for a year, and then it ((i.e., the pay for rank))

was returned, and everything... went (i vse... poshlo).

Well, I have not the slightest wish to hide ((anything)), or to tell

other than the truth (ne pravdu), or to deceive.

Well, not the slightest.

On the contrary, only on the contrary.

-A. You, of course, do not want to say that you cannot control your

tongue with your head.

You can do this well.

You already have proven this.

And no one questions this, you understand?

You said that you do not want to deceive anyone, etc., etc., but I

am not saying that your tongue deceives, but the head

-- 10....

THET

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B. Ha, ha.

A. ((in English)) You see,

because they work together.

B. A single whole.

A .

It certainly does not enter into my assignment to somehow

(stavit' Vam kakiye-to) ....

give you

((interrupts)) No, your assignment is simply to clear up the

questions which are not clear for you, and ((that is)) all.

A.

...The needle (shpil'ki) or still....

B.

No, no, no.

I do not feel ((it to be so)), in any case.

A.

We certainly are grown men (vzrosliyye lyudi).

B. Absolutely; по, по, по.

I ask you to continue as you consider necessary.

((That is)) all.

I answer as I remember, as I remember.

A. Alright.

We will take a break (sdelayem pereryv).

Let's go to the toilet, etc. (Poydem nemnozhko possym, posmotrim).

B. I have a great request ((to make)) of you; if it is possible, if it

is possible to resolve this question,

possible, perhaps,

during

our breaks to smoke a little, ha, ha,

ha.

A. ((in English)) Alright.

think we will resolve this question favorably.

When we return after the break, I think we will give ((you)) a

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cigarette.

B.

(? Thanks?)

A. Please.

( (BREAK))

A. My cigarettes are very weak.

I always am trying to quit smoking.

They have established that ((it is)) very harmful for the health,

but they all smoke.

B. Everyone (Vse) continues to smoke.

A. I think that you have been thinking during these (za eti) few

minutes.

Perhaps you will tell me something new about that of which we have

been talking.

B. I was thinking.

You know,

at one moment it seems there was a SAVCHENKO... no... no...

It was BEL'CHENKO as Deputy.

I said that the Deputy under SEROV was It Gen BEL'CHENKO.

I do not remember a second SAVCHENKO, no.

A. If we return to the question: when did they stop paying for rank,

when did they begin to pay again, etc., do you not think that it

would be better for you to return to that story which you told

earlier - that you started work in the organs of the MGB, not in

1953, but in 1952....

B. In 1953.

A. Because this question of pay for rank, etc., it is connected with

the year 1952, and therefore when you said earlier that you began

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((to work)) in 1952, etc., it looked, it more or less resembled

((actual)) history ((i.e., reality, the truth)), but when you switched

and began to insist on 1953, then it is very difficult to put that

which you have said in such order that, well, for example, ((that is))

that one believes everything that you have said.

I am

not in the least pushing (ne nastraivayu) you....

B. ((Interrupts)) I do not want to tell you a lie (nepravda).

A .

... In some

-- as you say - in some unnecessary direction.

For me, all directions are the same.

B. For you, the truth is necessary.

I am trying to say...; well, you understand, at times, of course,

I am telling what I imagine to have been the case (to, chto ya

predstavlyuyu, kak eto bylo).

And, perhaps, I make mistakes.

But I cannot pull out (poddernut' ) what is not ((there))....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

'In March 1953.

A.

Here again is the question, by the very same, ((pay)) for rank,

as you said, I have not forced you to say anything (ya ne tyanul

Vas za yazyk) and so forth, you yourself said that....

B. ((Interrupts)) Simply in my imagination (v moyem predstavleniy) --

you understand, in my imagination -- that it was soon (v skorosti) --

in my imagination, I again emphasize this:

in my imagination -- that

soon after I (v skorosti kak ya) began work, well, perhaps in the

end of 1953 - in my imagination, you understand me -- they took

away ((the pay)) for rank

and they did not pay us ((for rank)) for

approximately a year.

Then they brought it back (Zatem obratno vernuli).

After this - it was later - several times there were (khodili)

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persistent reumors that they would again take away (opyat' snimut)

((the pay))

for rank.

FURTSEVA, a member, as a member of the Presidium, came out with the

suggestion to take away ((the pay)) for rank, both in the Army

and among us (u nas).

ZHUKOV, who was a member of the Presidium at that time, was categoricall

against this.

It is not possible to do this in the Army.

Not possible.

And there were persistent rumors that they again would take away

((the pay)) for rank.

A. How did they answer FURTSEVA on this?

B. I simply am saying that this was FURTSEVA's suggestion, when she

was a member of the Presidium.

A.

What - was she responsible (otvechala) for the work of the KGB or

the Army as

a member of the Presidium?

B. No.

As a member of the Presidium, in all probability a question was

posed (stoyal vopros) in the Presidium about the economy of resources,

about finding additional (dopolnitel'nyye) money, somewhere, somehow,

and they resolved the question, the problem was resolved; in part

she suggested, as one of the forms, cutting this money.

The Army ((is)) huge, has many people (mnogochislennaya) .

If ((pay)) for rank ((were)) cut, then huge amounts of money

(ogromnyye. den'gi) ((would)) be received.

In the organs ((of State Security)) and the Army.

A. Is it true that one of the members of the Presidium answered her:

"Do you want (Vy chto khotite) to leave the Army without pants (bez

shtanov)?"

B. I do not know.

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I did not hear this phrase, "without pants", but I heard that ZHUKOV,

invery categorical and coarse language (forma), dismissed this

question, ((saying)) that one cannot in any case take away ((pay for

rank)) in the Army.

Because in the Army the pay rates for officers ((are)) not large,

having in mind company commanders, etc.

A .

Speaking to the point, when you were working in... in the Baltic

Fleet or where you were -- in the GRU, you say - how much were you

paid (skol'ko Vam platili)?

What was the basic pay (oklad)?

B. I began as an interpreter-translator (perevodchik), my position

(dolzhnost') was

- interpreter-translator of Intelligence (razvedki)

of the Seventh Naval Fleet.

A. Where ((was)) this Seventh Fleet?

B. It was in the Pacific Ocean, two fleets:

the Fifth and the Seventh.

At that time, there were two fleets.

A. Interpreter-translator of the Seventh....

B. Interpreter-translator of Intelligence of the Seventh Naval Fleet.

And how much were you paid?

At that time (Togda)?

B. ((After a long pause, B speaks, with uncertainty)) The basic pay

for the position (Dolzhnostnoy oklad) was, as an interpreter-

translator, it seems, 1,200 ((rubles)), plus -- I began ((as)) a

junior lieutenant -- 400; now, all of this has been doubled.

A. 1,200 and 400, this is 1,600, and....

B. Double.

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A. ... Multiply by two, it equals 3,200.

B. ' And, ((wait)) one minute... they also added (nabegali) here ((pay for))

secrecy.

Then... additional, for us... well... officers received... well, as

you know, there is a finance certificate (denezhnyy attestat), a

clothing

and equipment supplý (veshchevoy) certificate, a rations

supply (prodovol'stvennyy) certificate, so we received rations

(payek), gave a certificate, ((even)) those who did not have their

family ((with them)) ate ((on this certificate)), but then no one

had (vse ne imeli) ((these certificates)), ((excepting)) only a few.

persons ((who)) had their family ((with them)), ((to whom)) rations

supply certificates were given; we ate in the mess (stolovaya) of

the submarine base

in Postovaya Harbor (v bukhte Postovoy), and

for us

still (i nam

yeshche)....

This

is

considered

a remote area (otdalennoye mesto), plus ((there

are)) hardship conditions (tyazhelyye usloviya), additional rations;

we did not take the additional rations, but received more money.

In general, a large sum was accumulated (nabegala).

Because this ((was)) double ((pay)).

A. Well, this was in the Far East, but how much did you receive in

the Baltic?

B. I worked in the Baltic ((Fleet, area)) a few (neskol'ko) months,

here I already, when I arrived in the Baltic in 1952, to me there,

there they made me ((a)) senior interpreter-translator of the MAS MRP,

of Intelligence of the Fourth Naval Fleet in the Baltic; again,

there were two fleets: the Second and the Fourth.

The fourth Fleet, the base of the Fourth Fleet - Baltiysk.....

Here was... senior ((B thinks hard, speaks with uncertainty))

something... 1,500... I do not remember.

Then, of course, less money, because here ((there is)) no double

(nikakikh dvoynykh) ((pay)), nothing... here, plus, ((for)) the

rank of lieutenant - 500, plus, then, ((for)) secrecy; yes, ((and))

for language, of course, both in the Far East and here, 10%, there and

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there.

And ((that is)) all.

There was no double ((pay)).

But here, a few (neskol'ko) months, until the end of 1952.

A. Well, anyway, for you... it was a great blow ((to lose the pay))

by ranks, there was much talk about this, and so forth, and I would

try or wish that you would recall, anyway, when they cut off ((the

pay)) for ranks.

B. I do not remember; I do not remember.

For a year they did not pay, or my work, in the beginning of my work

in the MVD, they did not pay for ranks for a year.

A. Well, in the beginning of your work, as you said....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, the beginning of my work, this ((was in))

1953-54, this ((was the)) beginning....

In my imagination, that they cut this off, to my thinking... ((B

speaks with uncertainty)) at the end of 1953:

But I do not remember exactly.

They did not pay for ranks and....

A. This ((is)) a very important moment, and imagination, this is one

thing, but the facts, another thing.

It does not matter how you turn and twist, if you say that in March

they appointed you as a case officer and paid 1,700 ((rubles)) and,

for rank, 500, when in fact they were not paying ((for rank then)).

How can you make things connect up (("join ends'" - svesti kontsy s-

kontsami)) here?

B.

But there is nothing difficult here ((about this)).

They did not pay me ((for rank)) for a year; I do not remember the

period exactly.

Whether it was the end of 1953 or the beginning of 1953, from the

beginning of my work, for a year I did not receive ((pay)) for rank --

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I do not remember.

For a year I did not receive ((pay)) for rank in the beginning of my

work.

A.

Well, then, you already were working; by whose order and how was it

established (ustanovleno) to pay for ranks again; when was this?

в.

They did not pay anyone (vsem) ((for rank)) for exactly a year; ((that

is)) all.

A. Alright; you do not remember when they cut off the pay ((for rank));

perhaps you remember when they restored ((it)).

B. It seems to me that they restored ((it)) at the end of 1954.

It seems ((so)) to me, but again I cannot say exactly.

In my imagination, they returned ((it)) at the end of 1954.

A.

What -- and they paid the back-pay (zaplatili za vse staroye)?

B. No, no, no, no; not a kopeck; nothing.

They simply began again.

A.

Well, here again, I wish to repeat -- do you consider it possible

to believe a person who worked ((there)) for 11 years, etc., ((and))

who does not remember exactly and does not know or does not want to tel

such a fact, very important in the life of all officers, ((as)) when

they took away and when they restored ((the pay for rank)); how must

I, what conclusion must I draw (dolzhen vyvod delat') from this?

B. I cannot tell you what conclusion you must draw.

You are drawing the conclusion....

A. You are sitting in my place and talking with such a person as yourself,

who will tell you this ((just)) so; what kind of conclusion: would

you draw?

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B. I would draw ((the conclusion)): the devil with this 1953-54; well,

alright is this really so important?

A .

But what do we get (chto poluchitsya) if we go to "1952-53 -- the

devil with it", then we come to 1954-55 -- "the devil with it";

then at what ((point)) will we arrive (k chemu my priydem)?

B. ((Pauses, sighs)) I do not know.

I am telling what (kak) I remember.

A. It seems that each and any living man ((must draw the same conclusion))

if you remember such a thing as that FURTSEVA objected and they

opposed her, and so forth -- you know, as they say in English,

((in English)) background....

B. Well, because I... and father was alive, I heard these rumors which

((were heard)) by father, as roughly happens in life (kak idet

zhizn' priblizitel'no); what ((was))

there, what kind

of question

was discussed there, or something was decided there, or some such

thing was started there.

A. But what (kak) do you think -- you have said much about various

events in the period of these two-three years, what happened in

the Presidium or what you heard from father, and so forth; have you

said many such things, in your opinion (po vashemu mneniyu), or not?

B.

Where did I say ((them))?

To whom?

A. Here (Zdes'), here.

To all (Vsem litsam) who have worked with you.

B. Of course, I have said that which I heard, which I remember, which I

remember.

That which I remember.

Let us suppose, some kind of question has arisen about something we

are discussing: "Aha! This is how it was (Aga, vot eto vot)."

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I could have said this.

A .

Let us return once more to the question - perhaps it upsets you

a little, but I think ((there is)) nothing to be upset about here;

if you know, say ((so)); if you do not know, say that you do not

know.

Well, let us move (davaite poidem) to Building 12 on Dzerzhinskiy

Street.

B.

So.

A .

Where, according to your words and as far as I know, this is part

of the whole Committee for State Security; there ((is)) a number

(ryad)

of directorates (upravleniye) and depts (otdel), etc.

We will begin from the first entrance (pod"yezd) and go through all

((of them)) in order.

We will begin from the Central Entrance (Tsentral'nyy Vkhod) to

the Club.

B. So.

A. You know, of course, where it is located....

B. Yes, yes,

on Dzerzhinskiy (na Dzerzhinskoy)....

A. On Dzerzhinskiy.

What ((is)) there, what kind of sign hangs there?

B. There is no sign of any kind.

Absolutely none.

A. What kind of sign hung there, if none hangs there today (yesli ne

visit segodnya)?

B. I do not remember ((that)) any kind of sign ( (hung there)) in all

my years ((there)), there ((is)) none.

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Next to the Club, close by, you see: here ((is)) Building 12 -- how

((can)) I show you - Building 2, here, so; this is how they are

(vot kak oni).

A. Well, I understand; I see how Building 12 is situated (raspolozhen).

B. Here, here ((is)) the entrance (vkhod), so, here, from Dzerzhinskiy,

from Dzerzhinskiy Street, ((there is)) no sign of any kind here,

absolutely nothing.

But here, here ((is)) the Gastronom, here ((is)) the sign, "Gastronom",

in this building; this ((is)) Building 12, first floor.

A .

Let us imagine that you, you understand...

when did they open the

Gastronom there?

B. The name (nazvaniye): Gastronom 40th ((i.e., Gastronom No. 40)) ...

when did they open...?

((When)) I began work, the Gastronom already was ((there)).

A.

Well, when, approximately?

B. In 1953, there already was a Gastronom ((there)).

A. ((in English)) Well.

You see, of course, we can go on like this endlessly, etc: neither

in 1953 nor in 1954 was a Gastronom there.

And there was no reform (I ne bylo reform).

B. There was no what (Ne bylo, chto)?

A. There was none before 1953.

B. Well, when ((did they open the Gastronom))?

A. It was not in 1953 or 1954.

This is what I want to know - were you there before the opening?

-COREF

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When did they open this Gastronom?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

I do not know when it opened.

A .

Well, if you were there in 1953-54, as you say, and you tell me that

the Gastronom was there, I can in no way buy this, well, I cannot in

any way, because....

((XG; B interrupts))

B.

..Well, alright.

In my imagination, the Gastronom ((was there)) from 1953 as far as

I remember.

((Laughs nervously, unhappily))

A. I again want to say, simply in comradely fashion, that imagination,

this is one thing, but the fact -- completely another thing.

B. You may know ((some)) facts, but I may not know ((these same)) facts.

I may know facts, but you may not know a number (ryad) of facts.

A. A person who worked ((there)) ll years must, and probably does, know

when they opened the Gastronom there and must also know what was

there before the Gastronom.

B. ((After two minutes' silence:)) I do not know.

A. Here again ((is)) a question.

It is, of course, difficult for me, and for all of my colleagues who

were here before this, to believe that you were there, from 1953

until ((your)) last day, in the Second Chief Directorate of the KGB.

Because you even do not know the simplest thing:

the building next

to Building 2 (sleduyushcheye zdaniye dlya Doma 2), ((and)) what was

in it there?

Even such a big thing as

the Gastronom - you do not know when they

SEGRET

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opened it.

'I even do not ask ((which)) month, but simply the year, the year.

•B. I do not know.

I was not interested, I do not know, such a question did not come

up (ne stavil takogo voprosa)....

In my

imagination, it was ((there)).

A .

Therefore, of course, however you may try to put your case more or

less in order, etc., it is hard, it is in no way possible to sew it

up (ni kak ne vozmozhno podshit').

B. But ((it is)) very sad.

((It is)) very sad that this is so.

A. And one cannot believe that you, for example, you insist that

"I was ((there))", "I know ((this))."

((Even)) if it was not ((so)) with someone else (s kem), it was

((so)) with me.

It turns out so: a thousand soldiers are out of step, and ((only))

one is in step.

B. I do not insist (utverzhdayu) ((that)) this, ((is so)).

A. I know that you do not insist....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

B. I answer you what was ((or, "that it was" - chto bylo)) there.

God knows!

If I began to visit (poseshchat') Building 12, then I visited

Building 12, then from the very beginning of my life (s samogo

nachala moyey zhizni), 1953, from the very beginning, 1953,

I went

to Personnel (kadry) these 2-3 times, then I began to work.

Where only could I go in Building 12?

To the Club and... well, to meetings (sobraniye) in the Club.

SESRET

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What else?

Then, yes.

Run in to the Second Special Department (Spetsotdel), at the fourth

entrance (pod"yezd) .

This ((is)) the fourth entrance, and FINO (Finansovyy Otdel - Finance

Department)) -- the ((is)) the sixth entrance.

These ((are)) all of the entrances which I visited for approximately

a year, until 1958, until 195_..., yes, 1958.

A. Let us return again to the question:

Here ((is)) the door to the Club of the KGB.

What ((is)) written there or was written...?

B.. Nothing.

Well, nothing ((is)) written on these doors.

There are a few (neskol'ko) doors, you remember.

The entrance (Vkhod), well, not as the usual entrance (pod"yezd) in

Building 12 or in Building 2, this ((is)) not the usual entrance

(pod"yezd) to the Club.

This ((is)), a few glass doors, a few.

You go in one (Vkhodite Vy v odnu).

You see (Smotrite)

Here, let us suppose, ((is)) one glass door,

a second glass ((door)),

a third.

You enter at this ((one)) and, here you go through at this door, so,

you go through the next entrance (vihod) and there already you show

your pass (propusk) and you pass through into the Club (v pomeshcheniye

Kluba) .

A. ((in English)) Alright.

B. There ((is)) no sign (nadpis') of any kind.

Absolutely nothing.

((It is)) another thing that when you go in this one glass door here,

there may be signs inside, in this

SEGRET

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small doakroom (("dressing-room" - predbannichka)): ((in)) summer,

let us say, ((there may be signs)) about camps (lager'), that there

are a number of camps to which the employees send their children,

or there may be, let us say, ((a sign concerning)) a trip for

mushrooms, and something else there (yeshche tam), the devil knows

where (kuda).

A .

But, you do not remember, from the moment ((of the beginning)) of

your work there, how long the sign (vyveska) -- "Club of Employees

of the Ministry for State Security USSR (Klub Sotrudnikov Ministerstva

Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti SSSR)" -- hung. ((there)) .

B. And... I did not see this sign,

I did not see ((it)).

A. Too bad (Ochen' zhal'), too bad.

Let us return again to

one question:

As you said, and this also is known to all, in March, after STALIN's

death, the MVD and the MGB combined (ob"yedinili vmeste), and BERIYA

became

the Minister of Internal Affairs; KOBULOV was his First

Deputy .

What club did the MVD employees use after they joined (kogda oni

soyedinilis' s) the MGB?

B. The thing is that on Dzerzhinskiy Street, if you go just a little

further along there, ((there is)) the Club of the KGB -- that which

is there now -- on the right side, but ((if)) you go further along

Dzerzhinskiy Street, on the left side, on the left side, where at

one time there vas

a store, the so-called "Arrow (Strela)" or

something in that vein, closed, there was the club of the MVD.

A. What happened to it?

B. It also remained in the system as a club after 1953-54, because

I remember that KLYUCHAREV, an employee of the First Department

(Otdel), died in 1953 and there was a question (vopros

stoyal) of

whether to show the coffin with his body

in this Club of the KGB --

SERIE

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the present-day ((club)) -- or in ((the club of)) the MVD.

Because it was necessary to find a place (pomeshcheniye), they

wanted to use either this or this building.

And I wanted to say ((that)) they used both clubs.

A.

What is there in this building at present?

On the day you were there for the last time in Moscow, or the last

2-3

years?

B.

There is no club as such there now.

It is further along the street, where the former "Arrow" ((store

was)); there is no club as such, but there is some kind of construction

organization (stroitel'noye khozyaystvo) from the KhOZU (("House-

keeping" Directorate -- Khozyaystvennoye Upravleniye)) of the KGB,

a construction, well... section (otdeleniye) or department (otdel)

or something, the devil knows, but something is there (no chto-to

tam sidyat).

That is ((to say, then)), the building as such continues to belong

to the KGB, not the MVD.

A. Let us return, further, to our mutual friend, ROZHENKO.

Earlier, you said that you completed (zapolnyali) a questionnaire

(anketa) and an autobiography for his section (otdeleniye), for

him and for his employee.

What other steps (Chto yeshche... predprinimalo) did the MVD or the

MGB -- call it whatever

you wish - take in order to accept you?

B. I absolutely do not know what they did (prinimali); I absolutely

do not know, because

there were only these 2-3 conversations with

me and I 100% cannot tell you.

I cannot tell you; I filled out the questionnaire (anketa) for

ROZHENKO and

for his man, for his case officer who talked

with me,

or ((it happened that)) when I had just started work, SAKHAROV, the

Personnel man (kadrovik) of the Second Chief (Kirectorate), gave

me two questionnaires, two autobiographies to fill out.

I cannot say exactly.

-SECRET

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Well, in the very beginning I completed ((them)).

A.

But do you remember the name of the Chief of the Personnel Section

(Otdeleniye Kadrov) of the Second Chief Directorate at that time or

later?

B. There was none (Ne bylo), there was none.

There was one Personnel man in the Second Chief Directorate.

((There was)) not a Personnel group (gruppa), there was nothing.

One Personnel man -- SAKHAROV, Nikolay Grigor'yevich.

A .

Are you sure of this?

B. Ho, ho; not just certain - we were on the same floor (my sideli na

odnom

etazhe).

And his office was here, literally ((just)) a few steps from the

First Department (Otdel).

A. But who was responsible for (zanimalsya) personnel of the Surveillance

Department (Otdel Naruzhnogo Nablyudeniya) of the Second Chief

Directorate at that time?

B. UODK?

UODK... Central Personnel (Tsentral'nyye Kadry).

((Wait)) one minute, UODK, they also had, like the Second Chief

((Directorate)) had its own Personnel man in the system.

Not in Personnel, but, like the Second Chief ((Directorate)), they

had -- I think -- their ((own Personnel)) Department (Otdel).

A. But what - you do not know more exactly?

You worked so many years there, you must probably know.

That

is how it is, to speak in a comradely way (Vot tak, po-tovarishch-

eski).

B. But I am answering you.

In a comradely

way .

I am answering you, as I remember ((it)), as I know ((it)).

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A. It is impossible to believe that if you worked ((there)) ll years

you do not know who headed (zavedoval) Personnel and who headed

(vedal) Surveillance.

B.

One minute.

How ((was)) it, who headed ((them))?

Surveillance, in my time, as soon as I had begun to work, the UODK,

the Directorate for the Protection of the Diplomatic Corps (Upravleniye

Okhrany Diplomaticheskogo

Korpusa), surveillance of foreigners

(slezhka za inostrantsami) was under (byla podchinena) the Second

Chief Directorate, under (vo glave s) BOYKO ((or, ? BOYKOV?)),

Nikolay Vasil'yevich,

who also was (yavlyalsya) Chief of the UODK and

he was a Deputy Chief

of

the Second Chief Directorate.

But neither he nor

someone from his, so to say, staff (shtab) was

(ne sidel) in Building 2 (v zdannii Doma 2) .

A. Do you know something

about their safe apartments (konspirativnaya

kvartira), where the Surveillance employees lived, where they went

to work in the morning, from which they moved about, etc., etc., in tha

period, the period of the beginning of your work in the Second

Chief Directorate -- ((I ask)) because there were so many of them

in Moscow (ikh v Moskve do chertovoy materi).

B. P-s-s ((An explosive sigh, through nearly closed lips))

A.

Well, name for me a few safe apartments where they do not take agents,

but it is called a safe apartment where employees come in the

morning, from which they move about at work, ((and to which)) they

then come back after work.

B. I have given the whole plan (skhema vsya) for (po) the First

Department (Otdel).

A. I am interested... I have seen this whole plan;

((In English))

It's alright; we still will come back to this plan

if it is (budet) necessary.

SESBET

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As you know, these safe apartments, as far as ((those where) ) you

worked so long, and so forth....

You must know many of them.

Name a few for me.

B. ((Long pause)). I cannot tell you the main (osnovnaya) safe

apartment, the surveillance base (baza slezhki) of the First

Department (Otdel), of the former UODK, in 1953-54 I ((He laughs) )

do not remember, I was not even here.

A.

In 1955?

B. In 1955, I was not even with them (u nikh) at these bases.

A.

Do you imagine that

a person who has worked as a case officer and

higher in the Second Chief Directorate, connected with operational

matters, either finishes off ((maintains, "sews up" - podshivayet))

files (papki) or something, but a person sits near him, who meets

agents, conducts surveillance, requires it, writes assignments, etc....

B. So.

A .

... And in the course of three years you did not once hear and see

and you do not know anything about these safe apartments?

B. Well, why

do you put the question thus?

A. Because you have answered thus.

Otherwise, I cannot put ((the question so)).

You have said that in this time you were not working there and you

do not know.

In another instance, this morning or at the beginning of our con-

versation, you tried to convince me that (chto

u...)...

"I heard one thing there, there a thing," but

in the end I cannot

confirm how

this happened.

I am saying that this thing also could have been heard;

true?

SECRET

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Even if you yourself were not directly ((involved)), did not work

in this Surveillance Department or in the Directorate for Affairs

(Po Delam) of the Diplomatic Corps, etc., I am not putting a question

to you of all the details of this, I simply am asking where were

the safe apartments of the Second Chief Directorate, where all of

their surveillants were (vsya ikh naruzhka sidela).

B. UODK, all of the UODK was (sidelo), all the chiefs of departments

and the department (otdel) were in

the area (v rayone) of either

Second or Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)), in 1953-54, when BOYKO

headed, well, surveillance (slezhka) of foreigners.

Well, I never

went there.

How does

the work with

this surveillance usually shape up?

Let us suppose, (IG) worker (rabotnik), I am running (vot ya vedu),

I have a few cases, I write out an assignment for surveillance

(slezhka); the chief of the section (otdeleniye) signs, the chief

of the department (otdel)

signs, with regard to foreigners.

And it goes by its own route (svoim kanalom)....

A. We will return to this.

I understand how, by what route it goes, etc.

I have, as they say, the most routine, the most trifling, question,

which an employee who worked there must know.

Name for me a few of the safe apartments where employees of ((the

department of)) Surveillance of the Second Chief Directorate had

their headquarters apartments (shtab-kvartira).

To which they go in the morning and from which they move about at

work and ((to which)) they return.

Do they not go to Building 2?

B. NO.

They.

Each division (otdel) has its ((own)) base, its ((own)) base.

I do not know

the base 1953, 1954, 1955, where the base of the

First Department (Otdel) was.

The main (osnovnaya) base from which they moved about.

SEGRET

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The small (melkiy) bases, I remember these, I know.

I was in these at that time.

A. It is difficult, of course, to believe, especially for me, that a

person who has worked there, etc., does not know such a simple thing.

B. How ((is)) this, he doesnot remember such a thing?

Simple?

A.

Well, name these safe apartments.

Even one, two.

B. Well, Vosstaniye Square (ploshchad' Vosstaniya), Vosstaniye Square

I told of (daval) ((earlier)); now it has been made secret

(zakonspirirovana) ((B apparently said this in error and then

corrected himself:))... put aside (zakonservirovana), ((the safe

apartment)) on Vosstaniye Square.

A. Good; Vosstaniye Square, then (yeshche)?

B. Then (Zatem); but this, not, this... when

they move about to their,

so to speak, places; then, in the area

. of kropotkinskaya, near the.

bridge, please, well, ((there are)) the surveillance points

(nablyudatel'nyy punkt): opposite the Embassy and on the sides

(po bokam), in the rear (pozadi).

A. Well, these surveillance points, this is known to

everyone....

But who was the Chief of Surveillance, at that

time

or

another, of

the Second Chief

Directorate; who headed (vedal) the surveillance

(naruzhka) of foreigners?

B. The Chief was 'BOYKOV, Nikolay Vasil'yevich, Maj Gen BOYKOV.

A. Where did he come from?

WW 53216 DocId:32404700 Page 46

B. I do not know where he came from.

YORET

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((When)) I began to work, he was Chief of the UODK and Deputy

Chief of the Second ((Chief)) Directorate.

A.

Who else among their employees do you know?

B. Now, let us say, I know.

A. Not the Seventh ((Directorate)), as now; who, for example, was

BOYKO's deputy or the senior officers and so forth.

I am

not asking ((about)) the lower-level (malen'kiy) ((officers));

we will return to this later.

B. There was his SINEL'SHCHIKOV there, at that time.... ((Long pause) )

A.

Where ((was)) this, in the Vosstaniye Square area?

What kind of more or less outstanding, striking (kotoroy v glaza

brositsya) building (ob"yekt) is there?

In order to identify the place (Chtoby mozhno bylo opoznat').

B. (2G) ...

"Taxi (taksi)" stand in this place.

You see: two streets run into (vykhodit na) Vosstaniye Square,

Vorovskiy Street (vykhodit ulitsa Vorovskogo) and Gertsen Street;

they end in Vosstaniye Square.

Here, here... ((is)) Vosstaniye Square; here is (vykhodit) Gertsen

((Street)), here is Vorovskiy.

Well, here, across Vosstaniye Square -- this ((is)) a tall building,

so, here - between Gertsen

and Vorovskiy; here is a small, such a,

you know, a little building (domishko), and here in this little

building ((is)) a taxi

stand; so, here,

on

the first floor, there

was a safe apartment, it

is now, but it has been put aside

(zakonservirovana)... put aside, they do not work in it.

A. How far was

this from BERIYA's building (dom)?

B. BERIYA's building (dom), further, along Sadovaya, further, on the

right, further, the first cross-street (pereulok).

SEGRET

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A. Let us return again to the Club, so we will not waste our attention

(ne razbrasyvat'sya) on various sites (ob'yekt), etc.

Of course, it is very hard for me to believe that you worked there

for such a long time and could not even notice that a sign hung at

the Club.

B. No, no, no.

sign; no.

Perhaps there was a sign before my time, but I do not remember a

A.

Or, for example, the fact:

everyone knows that ((there is)) a

Gastronom there now, but there was no Gastronom ((there)) either

in 1953 or 1954.

B.

Well, maybe not in 1954, perhaps the Gastronom was made in 1955.

((Possibly, XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. ...And you cannot say.

How many times were you personally in this Gastronom?

B.

Again, it is hard to say how many times, I was ((there))....

I cannot tell you.

A.

...Did you drop in either every day or every other day?

B.

Well, no, no....

Once a month, or once a year?

I think this is not hard ((to answer)) ....

B. Perhaps...

once (1G).

A. ...Because if you were working there, you are working, etc., well,

did you not have to buy all the groceries (produkt) there,

and so

forth?

SECRET

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B. Well, I ran in for cigarettes....

A.

For some reason or other…...

What was the talk in the KGB?

Is it a good neighborhood?

(Is it

good)) That a Gastronom is located there?

Can everyone drop

in at the Gastronom?

B. Of course, the neighborhood ((is)) not very good ((i.e.,

it is not

good that the Gastronom is there)).

Because, for example, a person drops in; he can stand

there, inside

the big windows, carry.on a surveillance, ((seeing)) who... who

enters, who leaves.

A. What did the employees - for example, your Counterintelligence

friends - say of such a neighborhood?

((Was)) it good for the KGB, bad for the KGB?

B.

Bad, of course, for the KGB.

A. Did anyone say this?

At a conference,

at a meeting?

Or somewhere ((else))?

That "we

do not need such a neighborhood'?

B. I do not remember that, I would have

heard some such thing

at a

conference and somewhere ((else)) there....

A .

Well,

since....

B. ((Interrupts, speaking loudly)) Well, there

was talk that this

((is)) not much

of a place (nevazhnoye... mesto)

for the Gastronom.

A. Probably there was talk: someone decided to open the Gastronom there.

B.

Well, this was decided in the Mossovet ((Moscow Soviet - Moskovskiy

SECRET

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Soyet Deputatov Trudyashchikhsya)).

A. You were working there; perhaps you heard something, on the basis

of which....

B. I do not know.

I do not know how it was decided.

But I am telling you that ((it was)) the opinion of the operational

employees that this, of course, ((is)) not much of a neighborhood.

Very much so.

A. It even could happen that, while all Soviet citizens are going

there, foreigners also can drop

in.

B.

Of course.

A. And the tourists and so forth, well, perhaps ((persons)) from the

American Embassy will not ((i.e., will they not)) begin to go there

every day....

B. They will notice ((them)).

A. They will notice them, yes.

But, of the others--perhaps a person simply is going ((along)) and

sees (i vot uvidel) the Gastronom, runs in (zaskochil) for a

minute, etc.

Of course, it is hard - again, I repeat my earlier words: as you

wish, whether you like it or not, it is of course hard to believe

that you would work ((there)) so much time and would not know when

they opened the Gastronom.

B. I do not remember when they opened ((it)).

A. Or, for example, you cannot say more or less exactly how often you

dropped in there or ((if)) you never

were there.

SECRET

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Well, the Gastronom, well, of course, well, I dropped in, but how

often?

It is difficult to say....

((XG; A and B talk at the same time))

... You never dropped in there (... Nikogda tuda ne zakhodili)?

Well, no, without doubt (bezuslovno) I dropped in, I thing (po-

moyemu), sometimes I even dropped in after work to do some shopping.

A. ( (This is)) for me also not understandable.

You understand, of course, that when ABAKUMOV was ((there)),

IGNAT'YEV was ((there)), and so forth, KOBULOV of course was not in

power (ne u vlasti byl) in the MGB or the MVD, he was working in

GUS IMZ.

B. (?Yes, but?)

A. I am saying ((that)) when....

B. (?KOBULOV?) was working with ABAKUMOV, he was working, KOBULOV

A .

When't

B. Well... after the war... in these years.

A. If he was an acquaintance (znakomyy) of your family, do you know

approximately when he went to work in GUSIMZ?

B.

No, no; I do not know exactly when he went to work in GuSIMz.

A.

And ((on)) what basis they took him and transferred him there, to

GUS IMZ?

**-

B. ((It is)) my opinion, my opinion - I emphasize ((this)) again --

SEGRET

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GUSIMZ, this is the Chief Directorate of Soviet Property Abroad,

which was organized immediately after the war.

In connection with "Bismuth", so-called, the uranium mines

(uranoviye razrabotki), it ((was)) necessary to put (otnesti) them

also under GUSIMZ, but....

A. This ((is)) understandable.

I want to say, we will not go into these details, ((about)) "Bismuth",

GUSIMZ, etc.; perhaps we will return to them later; approximately

when, do you think, KOBULOV began working there?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Who was he there, Chief or Deputy?

B. Deputy Chief of GUSIMZ.

A. But who was the Chief; do you not know?

B. There were a few of them; there was SERGEYEV at one time, who

worked as Deputy, was Chief, there was someone else there, a few

times....

A. It is a little hard for me to believe that, for example, as far as

I know, KOBULOV was working in GUSIMZ, he began approximately in

1947 or perhaps from the beginning of 1948; he did not have, then,

any relation to

the Ministry for State Security

where ABAKUMOV was

Minister, and

... that KOBULOV would phone the MGB and recommend you

for work.

He must have, probably, ((connections with)) some big man who (2G) ...

B. You are forgetting about another ((thing)).

Excuse me, ((but)) you

are forgetting another thing there

-- that

GUSIMZ ((was)) a cover (krysha) for KOBULOV.

Because, in such

an enterprise as "Bismuth", the people working there

were only from

the MGB.

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A. This ((is)) known and....

B. Only people from the MGB were working ((there)).

A.

... That GUSIMZ was used as a cover also is known.

I do not want to get into an argument (v polemiku vdavat'sya).

But we will say, not wholly correctly, that GUSIMZ was only

•a cover

for KOBULOV.

B. He was a (byl kak) lieutenant general in Germany, KOBULOV.

A. What do you know about relations (vzaimootnosheniye) between

KOBULOV and ABAKUMOV?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. So we ((will)) not have a falling out (Chtoby nam ne ssorit'sya),

do you not remember whom KOBULOV rang up in the MGB?

B. No; absolutely ((not)), absolutely.

There even was no talk of this, to whom he would phone (pozvonit),

with whom he would talk.

Absolutely not even a word was said.

A. What do you think - were you telling the truth (pravil'no govorili),

((about)) when you went in at the fourth entrance (pod"yezd),

((about)) when you went to see KOBULOV, that they told you what

room and so forth and you went there alone?

B. Absolutely the truth.

No one told me which room.

I received

a pass (propusk) downstairs (vnizu) where they check the

pass.

An officer gave

me the pass when I arrived and ((I)) said: "Please,

look; there

must be a pass in my name here, at this entrance"

They looked, ((said)) "Yes ((there is a pass) ); you go".

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And room such-and-such was indicated on the pass; I went.

A.

Someone showed you where to go?

B. Well, I asked: "Where ((is)) this three... three hundred...?"; some

such room ((was indicated)) there.

They told me, "Now here at.... You go to the right.

There are a few steps; go in at the fourth ((entrance)), to the right,

but then you go over and go up one of the stairways to the third

floor, and you will find this room on the third floor".

A. And no one accompanied you?

B. Absolutely no one.

A.. No one met you?

B.

No, по, по.

A. Alright; let us accept that it was so.

In fact, it could not have been ((so)).

After you completed the questionnaires (anketa), you submitted them

to the Personnel Department (Otdel); then the MGB phoned again.

Let us suppose ((that)) they had received your file (delo) from the

Navy, and so forth.

Did they send you to the Medical Commission (Meditsinskaya Kommissiya)?

В.

I did not go to any Medical Commission when beginning ((work at the

MGB) ) •

A. How ((do you)) explain this, that you did not go?

B. I do not know how.

They did not send me to any Medical Commission.

Nothing.

In general, my

acceptance (priyem) for work was, so to speak, not

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usual (ne obychnyy) .

((It was)) an unusual (Ne obychnyy) acceptance (priyem).

Neither this case officer nor ROZHENKO, whom I saw only once, mentioned

one word, though, that they were taking me (prinimayut), so to speak,

on influence (po blatu) or on ((the strength of)) a phone call from

higher up (po bol' shomu zvonku)..

No one asked how I know KOBULOV, from where I know ((him)), and no

one said a word about KOBULOV had sent me.

Absolutely.

But the acceptance (priyem) itself was unusual (ne obychen).

A. I think ((that)) when ROZHENKO or the other employee, when he talked

with you, he probably asked about the state of your health.

B. But... I... said... normal health....

I had served... in... in... the Navy.

A. You understand, of course, a person may be fit (goden), for example,

to be a pilot, but sometimes may not be fit to be an operations

employee.

B. Well... I went through ((a medical examination)) when I began... uh,

uh... in the Navy.

A. I am not speaking of this, because work in the Navy -- even in ((Navy))

intelligence -- ((is)) one ((thing)), and work in the State Security

organs ((is)) another.

When they take a person, no matter from where - whether he comes

from the Army or is a civilian, anyone, always the routine is fixed

(poryadok ustanovlen), if one may so express it, the law (zakon)

((is that)) the person must go through the Medical Commission, not

because they want to throw him out or to find something ((wrong)),

((but because)) it is necessary for the future, when the person

completed his service (otsluzhit svoy srok), or ((they give)) him a.

pension or something; or, for example, they accept (prinyali) you as

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healthy; but then it happens (sluchilos') that you fall ill; so it

is necessary to establish that you entered the ((State Security))

organs as a healthy person ((and)) fell ill there.

For me this is not understandable: why, there must be some kind of...

B. ((Interrupts)) I think (( that it was)) only because, coming from,

(that it was only)) that, so to speak, on such a level - KOBULOV

gave someone a phone call, and ((said)) something, of something --

and on such a level, therefore, it happened quite easily.

And there were no special, so to speak, conversations with me.

There were

no commissions, negotiations - nothing special.

A.

But, anyway, they must have asked about the state

of your health.

B. Well, probably they asked.

But I did not go through the Commission.

A. You know, if you worked there long.

The routine exists, that a person must go through the Commission and

when they accept him for work, the Commission's decision is attached.

If they accept you, for example, for the Second Chief Directorate,

for operational work....

B.

But, you see, in fact...

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

... Taking into attention these phone calls, they simply proceeded,

it seems to me -- again, it seems to me, it is my impression -- they

proceeded from that position that, "Alright; here is this veteran

(veteran) ((B's surname)); he is on regular service in the Navy.

Has he gone through the Commission?

He has.

Is he healthy?

He is healthy."

And they saw the conclusions of the Commission in my personnel file

SEGREX

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(("'personal file" - lichnoye delo)) .

A. Well, of course, in the Personnel file....

B.

There is the Commission's report (raport)....

A.

... Of course, there was the decision of some commission, and so forth,

but you are explaining one ((way)), and as far as it is known

to me

personally, ((it is)) completely another.

((It is)) not important whence a person has come, whether he was a

pilot or an engineer, whether he is a civilian

or a military man

or

whatever, when entering on duty in the ((State Security)) organs,

he must go through the Medical Commission.

This depends upon the doctors: will they look at him through a

magnifying glass or he simply will go and....

B. I understand.

But I absolutely did not go through any commission.

They did not send me when ((I was)) entering....

Later, I went through the Commission as all the employees do; that

is, there were a few times during the entire term of my service

(za vsyu moyu rabotu), but ((this was)), so to speak, a medical re-

examination.

All of the employees went through the Commission.

A.

But where did you go through this Commission?

B. On Kisel'nyy Street (pereulok)... it was....

I gave blood, ((specimens for))

analyses....

But on Varsonof'yevskiy ((Street - pereulok)), I went through the

doctors....

In the Polyclinic on Varsonof'yevskiy.

A. On what basis were you sent to the Commission?

B. Not ((just)) me... but... the whole chief directorate (glavka) went....

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All of the officers.

A .

What - did they determine fitness for work in the ((State Security))

organs or simply look at the state of health?

B. They were looking at the state of health, so to speak; the medical

re-examination of how((ever)) it is called.

A. If ((it was)) a medical re-examination, then why the ((specimens

for)) analyses, when there are no....

B. ((Interrupts)) No, but there, here, you see, I went through two or

three times; here it was necessary to go through a series of doctors

and to give ((specimens for)) analyses, blood, urine, etc.

A .

Approximately when was this?

Fir first time you went through this....

B. I do not remember.

This was

two or three times during my years of service.

The last time, this was... to my thinking... the last time I went

through the Medical Commission ((was in)) 1959

or 1960, sometime

around then (chto-to v etom rode).

A. But you do not remember the name of the chief of the polyclinic or

of the doctor who examined you?

B. Well, a whole series of doctors examined me.

A. Which doctor whom you know, to which one did you go most often?

B. But I never went to ((anyone)), I did not receive treatment there.

Neither I nor my wife received treatment there.

Because we always received treatment in the Kremlevka.

A. But when you went through the Medical Commission in the KGB in

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Varsonof'yevskiy Street (pereulok)?

Bol'shoy Kisel'nyy Street (pereulok)?

B. Yes.

A. You do not remember one doctor?

B. No; I absolutely do not remember one doctor.

Well, we went into the reception office (("registration office" -

registratura)), you go into the reception office, you say:

"My name.

is" so-and-so, in... for... the Medical Commission.

They give you a check-list (('runner" - begunok)) according to which

you go to

the doctors.

You begin.

To whom you are to go is indicated there.

You begin to go through.

You

go to... this... very... there in the reception office.

I have been to one doctor; you go to the reception office -- ((you are

told)) to whom next to go; they lo0k

there, which turn,

to which

doctor.

Ah?

You go to this one, you go to this one.

In the course of a few days.

Do you not remember when this was?

When was the first time you went through ((the Medical Commission))?

B. I do not remember.

It was two or three times.

A. ... In 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957?

B. I am telling you:

I went through the Medical Commission two or three

times.

Two or three times.

I do not remember the

years.

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I remember the last time, why I had a medical re-examination...

The problem was resolved ((Laughs)) that everyone would engage in

physical culture, and it was necessary to divide the employees into

groups.

The first group, second group, and third group.

What does the "first", "second"', and "third" mean?

B. You understand, the first group, for this, running is involved and...

like real sportsmen, young people....

A. You wanted to receive a certificate (spravka) that ((you were)) not

fit....

B. Yes, not ((just)) I wanted to receive ((such a certificate)); it is

thus, so to say, you know, all the employees try to avoid the

physical culture somehow.

It was necessary to come to the physical culture exercises two

times a week.

Twice a week.

An hour before work, and an hour on working time (chas za schet

raboty).

A. At the same time, how many times do the employees of the Second

Chief Directorate engage in firing with their own weapons?

B. Once a year.

A. Where do they hold these shoots?

B. ((Pauses)) There is a firing range in Building 12, in the basement,

and there were shoots also, I remember, in the beginning of 1954-55,

in the basement ((of the building)) on Markhlevskiy Street.

Such a small building, very shabby....

It ((was)) in the beginning....

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A. How much time passed before you received your identification

udostovereniye lichnosti)?

B. Oh, yes, this ((Happened)) soon.

I think, perhaps, well... ((after a)) week, a week and a half; I

do not remember exactly.

I was going through, ((on)) a pass,

every day; they wrote out a

pass.

But then I received ((it)) immediately.

A.

What kind of identification (udostovereniye) was ((it))?

Can you describe ((it)) for me?

B. The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR.

A red booklet (knizhechka).

The seal (gerb).

The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR.

You open ((it)); on the left, a photo (kartochka); a stamp (pechat')

on the right... but (a)... the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the

certificate, then, ((that so-and-so)) holds the position of case

(sostoit v dolzhnosti oper)... yes... rank... Lieutenant ((B's full

name)) holds the position of case officer.

Neither the department (otdel), nor the chief directorate (glavk),

absolutely nothing ((else is indicated therein))... ((that is)) all.

What else was written in the identification?

B. Below, below, before the stamp and the signature, on the right, is

written in small type: "The holder of the identification is permitted

to keep and bear firearms (Vladel' tsu Udostovereniya Jazresheno

khraneniye i nosheniye ognestrel'nogo oruzhiya)".

A. But when you came to the KGB; did you bring some kind of weapon

(oruzhiye) from the Navy?

в. No, по, по.

SECTER

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A. But when did you receive the weapon, when you were working in the

Second Chief Directorate?

B. I think I received ((it)) in 1953.

A.

How, under what circumstances, and where?

((After a long pause, B speaks, with uncertainty))... The weapon,

the weapon, where did I receive the weapon?

I received the weapon on ((Dzerzhinskiy)) street, here on Dzerzhinskiy

Street.

Approximately, approximately, opposite Kisel'nyy Street (pereulok).

Also, such

a run-down little building.

On the

outside there is

no identification (Vneshne ni chem ne

ob"yasnish'), no siga

of any kind, nothing....

A small building

of two or three stories; I was there....

I received

a weapon;

someone else of the boys from the department

(otdel) received a weapon.

A. What was needed in order to receive

a weapon?

B. ((Pauses)) To my thinking, we received ((something)), as... a

receipt for forwarding (dlya napravleniya)... to... well... to this

section (otdeleniye), from our supply man (khozyaystvennik), SAMARIN.

A. You remember what kind ((of weapon)) they gave you?

B. I will tell you now... to my thinking, I had... the last time, this...

((2G; B speaks very softly; then, a long pause))

...It seems I had a Walther Number 2... yes, in the beginning, a

Walther Number 2.

Then it was changed.

No, a "TI", a "T'T" .

And the Walther I had was mine (A Val'ter eto u menya byl lichnyy)...

A "TT"... correct.

SEGRET

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A. A "TT'"?

B. Yes; a big one (zdorovyy).

A. Did they give cartridges for it?

B. Two clips (oboyma).

A. Could you take it home?

B. No... a weapon... the idea is that we must keep ((it)) in a safe.

It was this way in the beginning.

They kept the weapon in the safe.

Then, they thought it up;

they gave the weapons over to ((the keeping

of)) the duty officer (dezhurnyy).

There was a room where they put (kuda sdavali) all the weapons by

departments (po otdelam).

One fellow

of some sort ((was)) responsible forcthe weapons.

He issued it, received it, when it was needed for firing, for the

range; they cleaned it.

(2G) then, in the safe; then back; this room was eliminated, along

with the duty officer, and again they issued ((them)) and kept ((them))

in the safes.

Now, for example, in recent years, they laid in the safes until 1963.

In 1963, again ((they were stored)) by departments and even from

each section (otdeleniye); there was a single responsible person

in the department and he collected, he collects the weapons for all

sections, he gives you a little receipt-coupon (talonchik); you

have a receipt-coupon which ((indicates that)) we are holding ((the

weapon)) in the safe, such a little yellow ((receipt-coupon) ).

Because your number is shown there, etc.

And when it is necessary to go to the range, you receive it.

A. But, if you go somewhere on an operational assignment, etc.,

then

what?

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B. ((Speaks with uncertainty)) You can receive ((the weapon)), drop

in and get ((it)); you present this yellow coupon-receipt (kvitochek).

A .

What -- was there an officer in each department, who was responsible

for the weapons?

B. Responsible for the weapons?

A .

Of the department (otdel)?

B. Yes.

A. Are you certain of this?

B. Absolutely....

But, again, I say ((that)) in the beginning we kept, in 1953-54,

we kept ((them)) right in the safe.

Each man held ( (his weapon)) in the safe.

A. But was it permitted to take ((the weapons)) home?

B. No...

no, no.

A. Why?

B.

Well, anything... a person may get drunk... can happen....

A. Here again...

you confirm this absolutely exactly... but this ((is))

not wholly so.

B. That is, what ((is)) not so?

A. I do not want to explain everything.

B. No.

Will you tell me where I am saying ((something that is) ) not so.

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They kept ((the weapons)) in the safes.

A .

There is no objection to this.

The question ((is)), why were they not permitted to take ((the

weapons) ) home?

It is written in the ((identification)) certificate:

"It is permitted

to keep and bear...."

B.

Well, the idea ((is)), this is what, a weapon.

You go to

a meet (yavka), you return from the meet, you (?have?)

documents, you must have a weapon....

The idea ((is)) ....

But an employee could take ((a weapon)).

Please, take it; he could take ((it)) home.

But if something happens... children play there and... there are

grown children

and....

A. The employees also ((is)) a grown person.

I think he is responsible for his actions.

If he gets pretty drunk or over-drinks, what has happened is without

doubt his business ((i.e., responsibility)).

When you came to the KGB, did you have some kind of uniform?

Clothing:

B. My Navy uniform.

A. The Navy uniform also ((is)) different?

There are various ((uniforms)), you know.

B. ((After a long pause, B speaks, with uncertainty.)) Lieutenant....

A.

Further?

B.

Middle ((Higher School, or tight-fitting -?VUzkaya? or ?uzkaya?))...

shoulder straps (pogon), tunic (kitel'), trousers.

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A. Tunic, trousers.

What kind of shoulder straps did you have?

B.

Sea duty personnel (Plavsostav).

A. Why ((the shoulder straps of)) sea duty personnel?

B. I wore both the shore duty (beregovaya) ((uniform)) and ((that)) of

sea duty personnel.

Of sea duty personnel, as....

A.

Which must you wear?

If, so to speak, ((dressed)) correctly?

B. Of shore duty (Beregovoy) ((personnel)), of shore duty.

A. Of shore duty (Beregovoy sluzhby) ((personnel))?

B. Of shore duty personnel, because we did not sail aboard ships.

A. You came to the KGB; how did they have you dress (kak Vas stali

odevat' ) here?

Or, what happened to the old uniform?

B. Absolutely nothing happened.

I... came... I presented the clothing and equipment supply certificate

(veshchevoy attestat) at Rybnyy Street (pereulok), this ((is)) near

Kuybyshev Street (ulitsa), where they received... stores ((or

supplies - imushchestvo)).

There I received material for a uniform of the MVD, KGB.

But I did not have any uniform made.

So the material lay at home.

((But I received)) money for the tailoring ((of a uniform)).

Then... when... around 1956, from 1956 I did not receive (ya ne

stal poluchat') clothing (obmunidirovaniye), because the problem was

resolved - the employees repeatedly

raised the question: "We are

SEL

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agent operations personnel (agenturist); we do not wear a uniform;

we absolutely do not go about in uniform; why do we receive a

uniform?

Could one ((instead)) receive civilian clothes?"

After this... a number (ryad)... in a number of departments (otdel),

not in a number of departments, but in all departments, the problem

((of)) who would (budet) receive was resolved; department chiefs,

the leaders (rukovodstvo) of the departments will decide who will

receive civilian clothes, who will receive military clothing.

Let us suppose ((that)) a section ((is)) peripheral, is responsible

(zanimayetsya) ((for functions concerning)) the periphery ((i.e.

outlying

areas in the Soviet Union)).

((It was decided that "You will)) receive only military clothing;

civilian clothes are nothing for you; you do not work with agents

(agentura), and if you do work ((with agents)), you go ((for such

work)) only rarely"

Those who work against foreigners, against an embassy, those fellows

were permitted to receive civilian clothing.

We received civilian clothes - one time, on Rybnyy ((Street -

pereulok)), but then we were attached (prikrepili) ((for this

purpose)) to the surveillance departments (po otdelam slezhki).

And I received ((civilian clothes)) together with surveillance

((personnel))... but, for me... here, across from Dzerzhinskiy

((Street)), here, near Cherkasskiy Street (pereulok); I received

civilian clothes here.

Then, since 1958 or 1959, the question - may one receive, not

civilian clothes, but money? - has been resolved.

But here, the percentage ((of the increase of pay for clothing))

was small.

Here they decided... they gave ((it)) only to the fellows who know

a ((foreign)) language.

A. They had in mind that they would dress as....

B. ((That they would dress)) a little better, a little better.

Because, here, you understand, you go to receive civilian clothes;

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you receive the material; the quality of the material depends upon

your rank, not on the position (dolzhnost'), but the rank, and...

in fact, the material which the colonels, lieutenant colonels

received ((was)) good, but ((for persons of ranks)) up to ((lieutenant

colonel and colonel))... the material ((was)) not very good.

When we received the material, it was proposed, a suit every year,

shoes, a shirt every year, a coat (pal'to) every two years.

But the material you receive, you would not wear it, the quality is

so poor.

Usually, they sold it.

They put ((it)) in the commission store (v Komissionku) and sold ((it))

And

so you sell ((it)) and have clothing made, of course, of better

material of better quality.

But since about 1958 I

received only money.

A. Approximately how much did they pay ((for clothing)) for a year?

B. Oh, this

depends upon, you see, let us suppose ((that)) I received...

when.. the last time... something, I was working in the Seventh

Department (Otdel) in later (poslednyye) years... 1962 or 1963; I

could have received, for the coat, for both suits, altogether, but

this ((would have been)) approximately 500 rubles, in new currency.

A. 500 rubles?

B. 450-460 rubles.

A.

Approximately when did they change the identifications (udostovereniye)

of the MVD to ((those of)) the KGB?

When did they begin to change them?

B. But the KGB... was organized in 1955 or the end of 1954.

I also do not remember ((this)) date exactly.

And they began gradually to change the identifications.

A .

On this point (Zdes'), how did they ((i.e., the new identifications))

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100k (kak stalo vygladet' ono)?

B. Red.

Again, the seal (gerb), ((the inscription:)) Committee for State

Security under the CM USSR ((SM SSSR - Soviet Ministrov SSSR -

Council of Ministers of the USSR)).

Inside, ((it is)) the same, but ((the inscription is)) not the MVD,

but the Ministry for State Security (Ministerstvo Gosbezopasnosti) .

A. And it is written the same?

B. With the exception only that the words ((were)) not "Ministry of

Internal Affairs", but "Committee for State Security under the

Council of Ministers

of the USSR".

A. It also permitted the bearing of weapons?

B. Yes, weapons, also.

A.

Who signs the identifications?

B. Here, you see, it depends then on ((one's)) official position

(dolzhnostnoye polozheniye).

A. Take ((as an example)): a junior, senior....

B. Case officer.

The chief of a department (otdel)..., of the Directorate (upravleniye)

now,... of Personnel signs, or the Deputy Chief of the Personnel

Directorate signs.

A. so.

B. ((For)) a section (otdeleniye) Chief, a section chief signs, the

Chief of the Directorate, yes, the Chief of the Personnel Directorate

((signs) ) for

the chief of a section.

But a section chief has a better identification, such, ... up to ((the

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position of)) section chief -- ((one has a)) Morocco ((-bound

identification)), then from ((the position of)) section chief ((up)) --

( (one. has a)) leather ((-bound identification)).

Better quality.

A section chief, the deputy chief of a department, a department

chief, etc., ((have)) such identifications certificates, sturdy-

looking, but little darker red.

If it is of Morocco - ((it is)) poor, a bright red; but this ((other

one is)) darker ((red)).

Well, it looks more sturdy, the identification itself, more durable,

the leather ((is)) good.

Then: for the section chief, the directorate chief ((signs)) for

the deputy chief of a department - the Deputy Chairman signs.

A.

But, when you entered -- you say, in 1953 -- by whom was your

identification signed?

B. ((Pause)) I do not remember, the Chief or the Deputy Chief of the

Personnel Directorate.

Or, then, it was the Personnel Department, and not Directorate,

the Personnel Department.

A.

Well, if you received it in the beginning of your work -- say, in

March or April?

B. It seems that....

I remember, I remember, I remember - ((it was)) ZABOLOTNYY.

A.

Who ((is)) this ZABOLOTNYY?

B.

Colonel ZABOLOTNYY; he worked in Personnel.

Deputy Chief of the Personnel Directorate or Department, ZABOLOTNYY.

In 1954, they made him chief of the Second Special Department

(Spetsotdel) in place of KARASEV.

They removed KARASEY, who had been Chief of the Second Special

Department - audio penetration (podslushivaniye)

for many years.

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And he, ZABOLOTNYY, was Chief of the Second Special Department, until

about 1960.

From 1960 ((onward)), he worked (rabotayet) in the Border Troops,

as Chief of the Political Directorate.

A. But why did they transfer him to political work?

What -- he ((is)) a political worker (politrabotnik)?

B. In general, he ((is)) a political worker.

He had worked, generally speaking, somewhere in the Central Committee

((TSK - Tsentral'nyy Komitet)); a Party worker.

Grigoriy Ivanovich ZABOLOTNYY.

A. And the identification was signed by him at this time?

B. By ZABOLOTNYY .

A.

And you had this identification until what time?

B. Well, they changed ((them)).

They changed this first identification, then they changed ((them))

to the KGB.

Then, it, this identification was changed a few times in the KGB.

A. For what reason was it changed?

B. For a period... 'it ((was)) given (ukazan) a definite period

(opredelennyy srok).

The certificate ((was)) valid for such-and-such a period.

That it was given for two years, so.

A. But what if a person were a lieutenant and ((then)) a senior

lieutenant, then a colonel?

B. In this case, you have the right: you give your Personnel man, who

is in the Second Chief Directorate (Glavk), the usual necessary

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photos for the identification, and you say: "Here, please change

((this)) -- I was a case officer; now I ((am)) a senior case officer".

A .

And did you change ((your identification))?

B.

Well, there, after a month, two months, a month and a half, two

weeks, it is changed.

((This is)) also ((the case with changes of)) rank."

When your rank changes, you go to the Personnel man, give ((him)) a

photo.

Well, another time, you do not hurry there -- ((it is changed))

after several months; so.

A. When you were leaving there, let us say, in 1962 or 1964, who was

Deputy Chief of the Personnel Directorate or Chief of the Personnel

Directorate?

B. I have written the whole layout... to my thinking... ((it was)) VA...

VASIL'YEV ((Speaks with uncertainty.)).

A. But where did this ((person)) come from (ottuda payavilsya)?

B. I know only this thing about VASIL'YEV: he then was working, he

was for some years, he was Secretary of the Party organization of

the Third Directorate.

That is, he worked in the Third Directorate, and I do not know what

he was doing.

Then they elected him Secretary of the Party organization of the

Third Directorate.

He worked as Secretary of the Party organization of the Third

Directorate.

Whether he was in the re-elections for two or three years, I do

not know.

From the Third Directorate Party work, he received a promotion, and

they took him, well, into Personnel, into Personnel of the First

Chief Directorate, in the intelligence line, not into Central

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Personnel (v Tsentral'nyye Kadry), but ((Personnel)) under the

((First Chief)) Directorate; he headed the Personnel Group (gruppa)

under the Directorate... of the First ((Chief)) Directorate.

A.

What kind of promotion is this?

((To head)) a Personnel Group?

B. I do not know.

A. The Party organization of such a large directorate, but then Chief

of the Personnel Section (Otdeleniye) or Group.

B.

Well, in the First ((Chief)) Directorate, greater significance

attaches to Personnel.

A. Whatever great significance would attach....

B. Well, I know that he was taken from the Third Directorate, from ((the

position)) of Secretary of the Party organization of the Third

Directorate, he was taken into Personnel in the First ((Chief))

Directorate.

From Personnel of the First ((chief)) Directorate, he was trans-

ferred soon to Central Personnel as Deputy Chief of the ((Personnel))

Directorate, but then they made him Chief of the ((Personnel))

Directorate.

A. But who was his deputy?

B. Now... his deputy now ((is)) KUZ'MIN.

He became First Deputy ((Chief)) KUZ'MIN not long ago.

He became First Deputy ((Chief)) around 1962.

Before this, he -- KUZ'MIN -- was chief

of a

department (otdel) in

Central Personnel.

Yes, about 1962.

The Chief of the First Department of Personnel took his place (Vmesto

nego stal).

TEARET

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The First Department of Personnel is ((responsible for)) leadership

(rukovodyashchiye), Central Personnel, Central Personnel.

But another department there - ((responsible for)) let us say,

the peripheral personnel (periferiynyye kadry) ((i.e., personnel

assigned to outlying districts in the USSR)) -- was ((headed by))

this KUZ'MIN.

Maj Gen NAYMUSHIN was for a time, before VASIL'YEV, Chief of the

Personnel Directorate....

SVETLICHNYY, present Chief of the Directorate ((of the KGB)) for

Moscow and Moscow Oblast, worked in Personnel at one time.

A. But from where did he come in Moscow?

B. I do not know where he came from.

I know, the first

time I heard about him ((it was)) that SVETLICHNYY

(had worked)) in Personnel, as a Personnel man.

Yes, and ((that)) he was NAYMUSHIN's chief, to my thinking... he,

NAYMUSHIN was Chief, and he was Deputy ((Chief)).

NAYMUSHIN went to Central Asia, as Chairman of the KGB in Uzbekistan;

here, SVETLICHNYY became ((Chief)) for some time.

Then, SVETLICHNYY was taken into the Directorate ((of the KGB))...

for Moscow City and Moscow Oblast -- there were two: for Moscow City,

and for Moscow Oblast; he received ((the rank of)) major general

while in Personnel.

I do not know where he worked before this.

A. Let us return for a minute, again, to the entrances (pod"yezd) to

Building 12.

Well, is there one entrance on Dzerzhinskiy Street (ulitsa); or how

many of them are there on Dzerzhinskiy Street?

B. On Dzerzhinskiy Street, ((there is)) only the entrance (vkhod) to

the Club.

There are no more entrances (pod"yezd) ((on Dzerzhinskiy Street)).

A. And then, where ((are they))?

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B. Then, you turn the corner; here, across from Building 2, the second

entrance (pod"yezd) ((is)) there.

A. The second entrance?

Which, what

— it leads to the Gastronom?

B. No; the second entrance ((is)) next to the Gastronom.

Next to the Gastronom.

A. But where

is the

entrance (vkhod) to the Gastronom?

B. This ((is)) the entrance (vkhod), separate (samo soboy), and there,

next to the Gastronom...

The entrance to the Gastronom, see... from Dzerzhinskiy Street, and

the entrance to the Gastronom is from... here, this, here ((is))

the through-street (proyezd), as it is called, between Building 12

and Building 2, ((there is)) also an entrance (vkhod).

Two entrances.

From Dzerzhinskiy Street and an entrance from here.

A. ((In affirmation of understanding)) Uhuh.

But what was (nakhodilos') at Entrance No. 2 (pod'yezd nomer 2)? .

B.

At Entrance No. 2?

Which departments (otdel), which elements (podrazdeleniye) were

there (sideli)?

The Border Troops -- on which floor I do not know; I was at Entrance

No. 2 only in the section (otdeleniye) concerning

the Archives

(arkhiv).

When

I went abroad, before the trip abroad, I looked at the exit

files (vyyezdnoye delo) on the members of the group with which I

was going.

A. Since when have the Archives been located there?

B. I know that it is located there, right there, now.

This ((is)) a part (chast') of the Archives.

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It ((is)) not all of the Archives (ne vse Arkhivnoye).

A part of the Archives.

Specifically, I personally was only... in... I looked at the exit

files.

And I saw Border Troops (pogranichnik) there, in Border Troops

uniform.

A. Let us go ((on)) to the third entrance (pod"yezd) .

B. I never was at ((i.e., used)) the third entrance.

I do not know what

is there.

A. Well, how...?

B. No; ((wait)) one minute.

I was (byl) at the third entrance, I was (sidel) at the third

entrance, I went a few times; Lt Gen BEL'CHENKO was ((there)), he

headed, Lt Gen BEL'CHENKO was Chief of the Third Special Department

(Spetsotdel), now, the Third Special Department, yes.

This ((is)) the department which prepared various documents.

Well, ((if)) you need some kind of cover (krysha), cover (prikrytiye)

or to have a document ((showing)) that you ((are)) a member of the

Organization of Journalists or that you work in the Ministry of

Culture, and... a false passport (pasport fal'shivyy), this

department prepared everything.

A.

What was this department called earlier?

B. The Third Special Department.

A. Well, let us take ((for example)), in 1953?

B. The Third Special Department in 1953.

This ((is)) the Third Special Department.

I wrote a paper addressed to (na imya) the Chief of the Third

Special Department, It Gen BEL'CHENKO, to the Chief of the Third

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Special Department.

A .

But until it became ((the Third Special Department))..

what was it

called?

B.

I do not know.

I do not know what it was called.

Now it is part of (("'in the system" - v sisteme)) the OTU

- the

Operational-Technical Directorate (Operativno-Tekhnicheskoye

Upravleniye).

A. Let us go ((on)) to the fourth ((entrance)).

B. The fourth?

At this entrance, then, ((there are)) the chiefs (rukovodstvo), the

chiefs of the Second Special Department and a part of the Second

Special Department; telephones -- "Marusya" -- it all ((i.e., the

whole part)) is (sidit) here, audio penetration (podslushivaniye).

Then, here, now, now, the chiefs of the Operational-Technical

Directorate, the OTU, are here.

Here ((is)) the Sixth Special Department, formerly the Sixth

(Special Department)), now, also the Sixth Department of the OTU;

this ((is for)) censorship ((perlustration - perlustratsiya)) of

correspondence....

Here....

A. Let us

go ((on)) to the fifth ((entrance)).

B. I never was at the fifth ((entrance)) .

To my thinking, ((it is)) closed, and...

there

is not entrance

(vkhod)

there.

The fifth, this, see... just as you go in from Malaya Lubyanka

((Street)), Malaya Lubyanka, you

go through a little courtyard

here - which I have said already, closed off (ogorozhen) so, by

a high iron grille, ((there is)) a free entry ((i.e., a pass

is not

necessary in

order

to gain access to the courtyard through the small

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door in the grille)).

So, the fifth, here, around the corner, ((is)) closed and,

to my

thinking, I never went there.

The sixth ((entrance)), there, straight-away the sixth (pryamo

shestoy)... the sixth entrance, then; the FINO ((Finance Department --

Finansovyy Otdel)) ((is)) here.

A. And the seventh ((entrance))?

B. The seventh; to my thinking, a part of Personnel also is (sidit)

here, a part of Personnel is at the seventh; the Planning Department

(Planovyy Otdel) is there..; yes, ((and)) the MOB Department is

somewhere here, here is the Mobilization Department

(Mobilizatsionnyy

Otdel), not all ((of it)).

The chiefs (rukovodstvo) ((are)) in the New Building now....

And that is all.

A. Well, and the eighth ((entrance)) .

B. ((At)) the eighth, as I say, ((is)) the Party Committee (Partkom) .

A. You always insist that you saw ROZHENKO there, at the eighth?

B. At the eighth, yes.

A. For your information, he never was (ne sidel) there.

B. He was.

((It is)) another matter, what ((came)) later; later - I do not

remember the year - he was taken into Personnel of the First

Directorate.

A. Where he was taken is not important.

But the Personnel Department (Otdel Kadrov) was never at the eighth

entrance.

SEGREN

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B. ((in contradiction:)) No; I was ((there)); only at the eighth.

A.

Especially in 1953, ((when)) they invited you there, etc., none of

the Personnel people were at the eighth entrance.

B. On the sixth floor, on the sixth floor.

A .

It is interesting for me, of course, to hear that you insist ((upon

this)), but it is impossible for me to believe this, ((since)) it

was not ((so)).

B. I do not know, I do not know.

I am telling you what (kak) I remember and where I was.

A. Perhaps it was at another entrance?

You simply have forgotten?

В. No, no, по, по.

This cannot be.

This is the farthermost (krayniy) entrance, the very farthest

entrance, there where the dietetic restaurant (Dietstolovaya) ((is)),

where the library ((is)).

A. Where is the ninth entrance?

B. The ninth, I do not know where.

The ninth entrance?

Is there a ninth?

A. There is.

B. I do not know the ninth.

I do not know.

A. What (kak) do you think?

You have worked there so much time, and so

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Why do you not know the ninth entrance?

B. I do not know why I do not know.

Is there one ((i.e., a ninth entrance))?

A. There is.

B. I do not know, I do not know; I was not ((there)).

A. You must know where it ((is)) and what ((is)) there.

B. I do not know.

Is it that you consider the ninth entrance ((to be that of)) the

Directorate ((of

the KGB)) for Moscow and Moscow Oblast more

currently?

A. This building ((of that Directorate is)) under a completely different

number, and they are next to....

B. They are near ((each other)), they are attached.

A. Nearby, but it has another number.

And it has its ((own)) entrance.

The entrance from Lubyanka ((Street)).

From Malaya Lubyanka.

A. Where the ninth ( (is located)), or....

B. I do not know, I do not know; the ninth I do not know.

A. If you know all the rest, the others, what reason, why can you not

tell ((about)) the ninth?

B. Because I do not know if it exists, whether there is one; and if

there is one, then I never was there, and I do not know where it is

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located.

A. A person who has worked ((there)) ll years can in no way miss it...

B. I do not know.

I do not know more.

((There are)) no entrances of any kind here.

A. You could not in any way have missed....

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. However it goes, however it twists, you willdo nothing ((i.e., you

cannot

change the facts)), because it exists and people go there

every day.

B. ((Laughs)) Well, where is it?

Where is it?

A. In Building 12.

B. In Building 12, 1o0k!

Here are four ((entrances)): it ends with the fourth; around the

corner, the entrance (vkhod) from the courtyard -- here ((also))

are four: the fifth is closed -- I never was there - the sixth,

seventh, eighth; there, that is all.

A. We can talk this way for a long time, but I am inclined to say again

that you must think up seomthing more substantial or more truthful.

B. Do you want me to think up something for you, or to tell the truth

as I know ((it))?

A. Speaking of the eighth entrance, speaking

of the seventh entrance,

speaking of the ninth entrance and speaking of the fifth entrance,

if you worked ((there)) Il years, you must know ((them)) as ((you

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do your)) five fingers, because in no way can you not know this.

B. I am telling you what I know, when and what entrances I used

(vkhodil... vykhodil).

I do not know another entrance.

A. What do you think (Kak Vy schitayete); what conclusion must I make,

when the ninth entrance exists...?

B. ((Interrupts)) I do not know where it is.

A. ...And a number of elements (podrazdeleniye) which work very closely

with the Second Chief Directorate are there, and an employee who

worked there ll years does not know about this?

B.

I have

enumerated for you all entrances of Building 12 which....

A. The problem is that that is not all ((of the entrances)) .

And I see no basis, if you know

all the rest, more or less, ((for))

why you do not tell ((about)) the ninth.

B. I do not know the ninth.

I told you that I do not know.

Well, how can you pose the question so?

A. I certainly am not ((just)) posing ((a question)) .

It exists.

One can in no way (ni kak, ni kuda) throw it out.

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A .

There it is written, in white on black or black on white, "Entrance

No. 9".

B. I do not know Entrance 9.

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A .

How many times, during your time while you were working there, were

you in the Moscow Oblast ((KGB building))?

In the building itself?

B. About two times, probably,

or three.

A .

In the whole ill years, only about two or three times?

B. Yes.

A. And how many times during your ll years of work did you pass by along

Malaya Lubyanka ((Street))?

From its ((the street's)) beginning to its end?

B. It would seem (Kak budto by) I did so (prokhodil) a few times, of

course.

A. Well, "a few times", this is a loose idea (ponyatoye rastyazhimoye).

After 1l years, to say "a few times", this is almost ((as if to say

you)) were not ((there)) at all.

B. I passed by a few times, but I did not count how many times.

I did not have to, there was no need to pass along the whole of

Malaya Lubyanka ((Street)) often.

I went, by the way, in 1953, I often went to Lubyanka, but...

went via Malaya Lubyanka.

Why?

I had

a certain safe apartment (konspirativnaya kvartira) when I

began to work in 1953; this K/K No. Y was on Markhlevskiy Street

(ulitsa); it is parallel to Lubyanka.

One could go along

Markhlevskiy Street then, but I went along....

A. ((Interrupts)) Well, we have enough time ((to talk)) about this

apartment No. 7 and Markhlevskiy Street.

Can you briefly explain to me - begin from Malaya Lubyanka, straight

from Building 12 and up -- what

was there?

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B. At the beginning of Malaya Lubyanka, then, is located....

A. Let us finish with Building 12; further, the Moscow Oblast ((KGB

building)), begins....

B. Opposite, opposite, ((is)) a noteworthy place, here, opposite the

Catholic church (kostel).

A. So; what is before (pered) the church?

B. Some kind of low building - two floors, to my thinking.

A.

What is located there in it, what special ((thing))?

B.

I do not know of anything special.

I never was there.

Io my thinking, our housekeeping and supply offices (khozyaystvo)

were there: of the MVD-KGB.

A. Further, let us go ((on)) beyond the church.

B. The usual buildings (Obychnyy dom); I never went there to even one

of them....

A. On the left, on the right?

B.

... Either on the left, ((or)) on the right.

A. Nothing special.

B. Nothing special, noteworthy.

A.

... There is nothing noteworthy.

B. No.

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A. Here again, of course, we cannot, in any way, we cannot agree.

You know, if I worked there for quite a length of time and you worked

((there)) 11 years, I also had no special reason to go along this

street -- let us say I did ((this)) two times less, so -- but, on

the basis of what I saw and what I know, it seems to me ((that))

you must know more than I, especially ((concerning)) more recent

times.

Because in ll years, not only in the way of work and cases, but

simply because it happened so (tak mozhet byt'), I rode along,

walked along ((this street)).

B. Not necessarily.

It ((is just)) an alley (("dead end" - tupichek)), a little

through-street (pereulochek), Malaya Lubyanka; if

one has to go on

Malaya Lubyanka, then only (XG) .

A. ... This alley, etc.; it is alongside the KGB and Building 2 and

Building 12 and ((the building of the KGB for)) Moscow Oblast and....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, and what of such (chto zh takogo) (XG) ... it

is not necessary for you....

A. Each KGB employee knows all of these buildings as ((he knows his own))

fingers.

What ((they are)), for what, where.

B.

What I needed to know, I knew.

A.

Why can you not explain this?

B. I have explained to you.

What I needed to know, I knew; I am explaining to you.

A. And again the question: how ((do you)) explain

why (chto) you

cannot correctly say where the Personnel Directorate is situated,

((why)) you cannot say that it is at the filth entrance (pod"yezd),

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((why)) you cannot say clearly what is at the sixth entrance, but

((can do)) so about other entrances?

I must say that a part of what you have said is the truth, as it

concerns 1953, approximately.

B.

Understand ((me)); how ((is it that)) you do not understand; you

are working in Central (Tsentral'nyy) Building 2, I am working in

Building 2, so, there in the Old Building; do I go much, often, to

the New

Building?

Oy, oy, oy, oy, oy!

Very rarely.

For

what is it necessary for me to go to Building 12?

If it was necessary for me to go to the Party Committee (Partkom),

I went to the Party Committee; if it was necessary for me ((to go))

to Personnel - it was not necessary for me to go to Personnel, no

one phoned me; there was no need whatsoever for me to go to Personnel.

Where did I go?

I went to the sixth entrance in Building 12 -- this is FINO; there,

they receive money and they write out travel documents there -- I

went there.

Now.

But, there is the eighth

- the Party Committee of the Komsomol

(Ci.e., the Komsomol Committee, although B says, "Partkom Komsomola")),

when I went in 1953-54, then, the Party Party Committee ((i.e., the

Party Committee; B thus distinguishes it -- "Partkom Komsomol")) .

So, now, ((I went)) to the fourth entrance most often, because ((I))

had (prikhodilos') to give assignments (zadaniye) to the Second

Special Department, to the Sixth Special Department -- ((I went))

here often.

I was at the second entrance a few times - this ((was)) about two

or three before ((my)) departure abroad; ((that is)) all.

There was no further necessity ((for me)) to go to Building 12.

Absolutely none.

A. You say that you went to the Operational Equipment Directorate

(Upravleniye Operativnoy

Tekhniki) ((i.e., the Operational-Technical

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((i.e., the Operational-Technical Directorate, OTU)), and so on?

B. Yes.

A .

If you went there, often gave ((them)) assignments, etc., then how

do you explain that you do not know General SAVCHENKO, Ivan

Tikhonovich; how do you explain this?

B. I do not know, I do not know SAVCHENKO.

A. I do not see any basis, if you know, there is no sense and no basis

((for you)) not to talk about this.

B. I do not know.

I ((just)) now said:

I went....

A. He is not dead; he was there, he is there.

B. ((Wait)) one minute.

I am telling you ((that)) I went to the Second Special Department;

to whom did I give assignments?

Well, the first year, 1953 -- to KARASEV, personally to the Chief

of the Second Special Department; then, later, to ZABOLOTNYY.

To the Sixth Special Department -- to SHCHIKOCHIKHIN, to SHCHIKOCHIKHIN

To whom else... well, you go, in the Second Special Department,

to

"Marusya", YANICHEV, BORISENKO, you go to these ((persons)).

( (That is)) all.

In 1962-63, I went a few times to PATRUKHIN... from the chiefs of

the OTU; ((that is)) all.

To whom

else did I go?

(2G)

A. For our next conversation, I want you to think a little about

these questions of which we have talked today.

I consider it a direct necessity to return again to them.

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B. Please.

But I have told you only that which I remember.

A. I think that we tried very hard to introduce order in the questions

and answers, but I do not see that you ((In English:)) clear up

everything.

B.

Too bad (Naprasno), too bad.

A. I consider that you - despite some truthfulness in your statements,

in the testimony which you give, etc.

- are inclined, anyway, for

some reason unknown to me ((not to tell the truth)) -- either you

are not telling the truth or you do not know ((the answers to))

those questions which one would know ((how to)) answer just like

that ((Snaps fingers))....

B. ((Interrupts)) That which I know, I answer.

A. ... Without any hesitation.

In addition, you make ((what)), in your view, perhaps, it seems,

((are)) small mistakes, but in my view -- very large ((ones)) --

when, for example, you say ((that)) ROZHENKO ((was)) at the eighth

entrance, where he never was (gde on nikogda ne sidel).

B. I do not know.

I saw the Personnel man (kadrovik) only at the eighth ((entrance)) .

A. I would not want our more or less friendly conversation to change to

a stronger course (rusio).

I would consider it useful that you think ((about this)).

B. I have told you that, you see what -- you already put the question

so (taks)... absolutely not believing....

Well, I cannot....

What I know, I tell (XG) .

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A. As I said earlier, when I had just arrived here, my job (zadacha)

is to help you and to help my colleagues in some measure, though

they are fully convinced and have their ((own)) correct opinion.

I think (schitat') that you should think in general about that

position in which you find yourself (nakhodit'sya).

And when we talk about ((some)) questions, if they ((i.e., the

answers)) are not known to you, it will be much simpler to say that

"I was not there and I do not know' than to drag in, or to do

something like that, your ((own)) conclusions, such

as: "I imagine"

or "I think".

Everyone can imagine and can lie....

B. But that is the

reason; you ask me, but I tell you that I do not

know, but I imagine so... thus.

A .

Because

imagination

sometimes

can misinform (dezinformirovat')....

So, I emphasized to you: "It is my imagination" (2G)... ((at))

this moment, when I have explained it to you, I have said that I

do not know exactly, I can only say "imagination".

A.

One cannot, for example, believe - if a person has worked ((there))

11 years and knows that he began ((work)) in 1953; a person who has

worked there cannot say that, at the eighth entrance, he was in the

Personnel Department, which never was there ((at the eighth entrance)).

B.

Well, if I went, ((if)) I had these conversations there....

Before my entrance (postupleniye) ((on duty)), precisely ((at that

time of entrance on duty)), and ((even)) now a part (chast') of

Personnel is there, it is (sidyat) ((there)).

A .

What - they did not want to let you in the Personnel Department

and a Personnel man went to the Party Committee (Partkom) or the

Komsomol..?

B. ((Interrupts)) Lord, deliver ((me)); Lord, deliver ((me)); I even

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had no such idea (predstavleniye) ((that such was the case)),

because I saw the office (rabochaya obstanovka), I saw ((that))

4 or 3 officers sit in the office, they have papers on the desk...

what.

No ((that was not the case)) .

A. I think that we will stop on this ((point)) today.

I think we will meet again.

B. I would like to say only one ((thing)).

That my, it was,

it was my sincere wish to say, hiding nothing…...

A .

((In English)) Well,

between us, it seems not completely so to me.

But for me... there is no reason of any kind to hide something or

to conceal something such.

((XG -- A and B speak at the same time))

A. ...If one has absolutely no reason of any kind, or if there are such

reasons, I would like to hear these reasons.

• B.

Really, for me there is absolutely no reason of any kind, no wish

of any kind to tell you lies (nepravdu) and to hide something.

A .

But after our conversation of today, the first, I can tell you

straight

out ((that it is)) my impression that you probably must

think very, very much before we really will come to a common

agreemen't and find a common language.

Because I have come. not ((just)) to spend time and not to busy myself

with nonsense.

I do not want to say that what you said today is nonsense or lies,

etc.;

part of what you said today, etc.,

is the truth and

absolutely

no one will deny it.

But a number of moments of which you have spoken, etc., one cannot

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let pass.

B. You are free to have any opinion.

A. I want to say that if you say, "You are free"

, etc., of course,

am free, but I do not want to think this way (tak),.

as I want....

B. ((Interrupts)) I do not want you to

think....

((3G; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. If we ((have)), for example, somewhere a question arises, a question

arises, etc., some kind of misunderstanding, as, say, with regard

to the Personnel Department or with SAVCHENKO there

and

others, etc.,

I would wish that the person who has worked in Moscow in the Organs

of the KGB, as he says, for 1l years, would give me a more or less

plausible explanation, ((other)) that that which he has given me.

B. We are at the greatest impasse.

A. As I said, it ((is)) so simple.

We can continue our conversation for quite a long time and I can

tell you directly that I am here, really, I want to establish the

truth.

Where there is a lie or for some reason you have found it necessary

to say other than what you wish or ((other than)) what is ((so))

in fact, you can, without any fear, say that....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

...Where you are inclined to be in such a position, as ((that in

which)) you began today, and not give more or less plausible

explanations on a number of questions, I think that....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.) )

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B.

...You think (schitat') that I have lied to you, that I am not

telling you the truth, then why do you talk with me?

If you think so?

A. I already have emphasized that much of what you have said is

plausible.

B. Well, so -- I have not lied (sovrat') to you, I have not lied

(solgat'); not at all.

Too bad you are this way (Naprasno Vy tak).

Well, what, then.

A. I think it is not necessary to be upset (nervnichat'), to take

offense, etc.

B.

What offense.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. I you really are inclined....

B. I really ((am so)) inclined, and I really wanted....

A. ...Some kind of help, that I would help clean up this case (delo),

in which there is so much dirt, etc.

I think that you must think ((about this)) today and decide.

Perhaps you yourself will begin to tell another story (tema)

tomorrow.

B.

Good-by.

A. Good-by.

((End of Reel #2;

End of Session #1))

'REN

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