Agency: HSCA
Originator: CHICAGO CRIME COMMISSION
Document date: 03/29/1951
Document type: OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

9/21/201

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER :

RECORD SERIES :

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

HSCA

180-10065-10407

NUMBERED FILES

008754

Document Information

CHICAGO CRIME COMMISSION

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE:

DATE:

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

03/29/1951

78

DALLAZ, TX, RACKETEERING AND SUBVERSIVE

ACTIVITIES

GUNS

ORGANIZED CRIME

KNAPP, JACK

MEXICO, RACKETEERING AND SUBVERISVIE ACTIVITIES

GUTHRIE, STEVE

DOCUMENT TYPE:

OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT

CLASSIFICATION:

Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: 3

CURRENT STATUS :

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

Redact

10/16/1996

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

159-1. Box 159.

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The first seven recordings of this meeting are not transcribed in detail inasmuch

as they are. not pertinent to this letter out the for hing heful pie fris, Crunce,

I Buter or 11/1/46 at

Record 1

Discussion of the ner home which GutHRiE has purchased at cost of

ниже и Винне

JONES stated that he had built a house on Blanch Circle which nome cost him $6, 500.

It is to be noted that this home was purchased from Foilara-simnons.

Record 2

Discussion of GUTHRit's German Shephera dog 22 months old.

Recora 3

JONES discussion of the pover of money relating that a few years ago $50 a week

was good money but now was nothing

Record 4

GUTHRiE stated that he had chance to buy a .357 Magnum revolver and he described

to JONES the penetrating power of the weapon stating it would shoot completely

through a Packard automobile. PAUL advised GutHRIE not to buy any kind of gun.

He stated friends will give him guns and guns he will confiscate at the Sheriff's

Office will more than satisfy his needs. JONES aiscusses the relative merits of

various firearms stating that in his estimation a 32.20 is a gun he believes best

suited for his purpose as it will penetrate a bullet-proof vest, hovever, JONES

stated this sun nad no snocking power, that it would go through a men aná

much damage. He advised GÜTHRIE to carry a firearm tith the most shocking force.

PAuL says his gun is a Colt 45 automatic with hammer and trigger guard sawed off.

Recora 5

He described this gun as being loaded with a clip containing three shells, which

clip nolds the ejected cartriäge case after the bullet has been firea. He re-

lates that this gun is extremely handy inasmuch as it is difficult on a rainy

night to crawl arouna on your hand and knees looking for ejected cartriage cases.

He states he knows a man who smuggled in 100 gunds from Germany and they are

perfect. JONES stated that he never hit a nan with a gun in his life and never

wants to be hit by one. The only time he had ever taken a gun irom his pocket,

or rould ever take it from si pocket would be for one purpose and that would

be to kill someone. A gun to him is a weapmonly to be used for mufäer. CRIME CCMIMSSION

spraise - 10c to now. lille- mcClean snam.

MAR 20 1951

Go 15.

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2

Record 6

JONES relates again, my epople do not like automatic guns because they eject the

shells.

If you ever stop in the rain on a dark night and try to pick those things

up you will understand what I mean.

experience speaking, to which he made no reply.

Record 7

Further discussion by JONES, BUTLER, and GUTHRIE of the value of a :357 Magnum

and Jones agrees he will give both GUTHRiE and BÜILER a magnum waich he till

purchase on his trip to Chicago in a few days.

GUTHRIE:

Dallas, Texas is the

hottest spot in the country and George knows

it. I con't have to tell George.. I'll bet ballas is the hottest

spot in the Unitea States today, the hottest spot. Not only that,

but

JONES:

Go

J.

Why is it hot?

Because they let this vice get out of control. I know there is

going to be dice ganes, bookie joints, and -

Why not control it?

That's what they should have done, but they let it get out and the

only way to control it is this way now,

J.

G.

It can be controlled.

Is tell yet fa Dalton have to ten yeo Bene none

dollars a year, one flat million. On policy alone.

J.

G.

What does he get

Probably two thousand dollars a week peak.

They offered the thing to me when the blow up came and Binion and

all of them got scared when some of these people were identified

here in town, right after Miryard was bit ana they came to me and

offered me the thing for $5000 dollars a week. I told them if the

town wasn't worth more than $5000 a week i didn't want it.

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G.

J.

G.

Go

Jo

C.

J.

G.

Jo

Go

J.

J.

Why, that's chicken feed.

They said well, we'll let you have everything for $5000 a veek. I

said I don't want it for $5000 a veeri said because you can't: do

They said how about 74000.

I said you are going the wrong way.

for money what I

would want you to do or you would want a hell of a

lot more than $5000 a week.

Well,

Because

I can show you. I knor what they make and that is the reason

you laugh about it.

I know it is.

Because they hang out with each other. I can show you Binion and

Caulain in the Century room together.

You mean Dean Cauldin the istrict Attorney goes with Binion the big

gambler.

"woula"I be seen on the street with that bastard; would I

be seen on the street with one of those Son-öf-a-bitches,

fell no.

Here is the deal faul, Everybody knows the city, the mayor i guess,

the Sheriff's uffice I don't know I guess that they are paid off, we

know they are paid off but what I want to know is this, bow in the

hell they get all the way to Austin and get a pay off down there.

You can't pay off a Ranger.

No they tell me they arepretty good.

I have turned down a pretty good offer. I told you what I turned

hoos whos would be bucking, I would be bucking will wilson,

istrict Attorney, Conzaullas the Ranger, I mould be bucking every-

body.

How could I get on a tIcket like that without knowing sonething.

How in the tell would I know.

I'll show you how you can do that. here's what i propose. As 1 toid

ir. Butler, ve are not interested in you for two years. I'll tell how

we can control Binion. I'll show you.

There would be no trial. Ne

won't have to shoot nobody and you won't have to shoot nobody.

Well, now that shooting in Dallas county. I'll tell you right now,

I'm fed up with that shooting. i don't care if a man is a gambler he

don't have any right to be shot up.

We don't shoot nobody. We don't shoot nobody. There won't be no

sbooting.

Ve're not going to bring no more people in here. Tie need no more

than we already have. I propose to use this man as example because

he says he is a good friend of yours. turing the campaign he came

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G.

J.

Go

P.

Go

Jo

G.

J.

G.

J.

G.

J.

to me and asked me to support you and he told me he was a very

good friend of yours and asked me to make a statement concerning

a little action smoot chmid took to get a little publicity. He

took some pictures and put In the paper saying we ran them out

of tow, done run them out of torn; Benny Goodwin ran them out

of town.

A publicity stunt for his campaign.

I raised "ell about it, and this friend of yours saia will you tell

a couple of people about it.

I saia not oniy will 1 tell

them but

I'm going to tell the Federal Judge about it. Before I go any further

you tell me whether he is a good friend of yours, no LANCAStER.

Chick is a fair friena of nine.

I went to school with him. Played

football with him. We were good friends and Chicago vas a good boy.

There is no shooting. No shooting. But here is what I want to do,

just like we opened in Charleston,

West Virginia the first of the

month.

Same set up thet I propose to you. We operate all over the

country, understand.

Dian't you all take New Ürleans.

we put Morrison in town there and paid his father-in-lam and supportea

him in Mexico City.

His dad has control of something big in Mexico lity äoesn't he?

That's right.

Is that Dean morrison.

Yes.

Is be the Chief of Police of -

-- no he is mayor of New Ürleans

isn't he.

That's right. In ilexico City we did something even Capone failed to

do. I went down there and there was a little heat on, and I wanted

to go to Mexico City for vacation.

I met people 1 had never been able

to meet before. If you will live like they live and become one of

them, I will grant you they offer you anything. Friendship, that's

what i like. I'll show you a carà from Chief of Federal Police in

Mexico. It's in Spanish.

He is Chief of the Federal Highway Patrol.

He let me haul anything in lexico and let me alone.

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•G.

J.

C.

J.

Go

J.

C.

J.

• G.

J.

J.

G.

J.

Is he a German Paul. You don't have to answer this if you don't want

Isn't ary Bastard Communist or Nazis or those crappie guys tied

to this deal are they.

With me? No.

I fought for this country and if i take anything or make any deal with

anyboay --

Look, you want me to tell you sonething. We have had more men in

service than any one company in the United States. You know Frit

always wanted Marty Ochs but could never find him because he had no

You know Trite

lou know the thing 1 am burned up'about is these

people that sit and holler about the Chicago hoodlums. The last three

had never been arrested before in their life. I was the only one in

the group, two were Masons and Shriners and the other a 22 year old

kid.

They were held in jail two days and two nights without even

being asked their names.

When the lawyer came in with writs they re-

leased them and ran them out of town; that is they took their pictures

and said they ran them out, and I am raising iell because they didn't

nave any record.

Who is TamayOwn

He is chief of the Federal Highway Patrol.

I can speak Spanish a little. Eugenial Amellie lamayo.

If you can

pronounce that after I spell it I'll kiss your nose..

Tamayo.

If you think this suy is not a lernan listen to this name. "Maus", vino

'in the tell is he.

He used to be plant superintendent.

Zassenhaus, that is a pure dee German.

Here it is Jonn latterman, New

Urleans, Walnut 4769.

Casino, I've heard the name.

Mayor's private telephone number, Boco 10 (other numbers not icentifiable),

Watternan don't live there,

he lives in Mexico City.

Well i'll tell

you what. There was a lot of trouble started down there when Luck

Luciano came out.

He left Italy headed for Kentucky.

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Go

J.

C.

J.

Go

J.

J.

G.

J.

G.

J.

j.

G.

J.

Go

He's still there isn't he?

Vie didn't help bring Lucky Luciano to lexico although ü. S. Innigration

gets the idea that we

are responsible for Luciano coming here so

they tried to put the heat on us. The Trade Department came down

and 1 had & long talk with them. 1 explained to them, I told them

I'll take your people and show you what our interest is. lie operate

nearly 100% legitimately. We have a distillery in Mexico. We

control nearly 80% of the textile incustry.

Are you all the ones that have a controlling interest in the Ice

Cream business in Mexico?

We have nearly all the ice cream business in Mexico.

I heard something about that, let's see, if they wouldn't buy their

milk from someboäy, soneboay didn't get sonething.

Didn't get the machines.

he had the machines that made the ice

crEam.

You aon't have to pick him up, ve pick him up. Or if anyboäy robs

a filling station in a district, ve control.

There are districts

you do and districts you don't.

Oh,

sure.

We understand that. He do that ourselves because if we have a man

in office who is co-operating with us it is to our advantage to

re-elect him.

We have got to keep him in office. "e've got to

protect him.

Monterrey®

Monterrey, Mexico.

How do you pronounce this, Sutcliff.

Sutcliff, he is an Englishman.

That is the name of our company

down there, the Textile Company.

Are they Englishmen or -----

All Mexican.

This is a comfortable chair.

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so wane ..

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G.

B.

J.

• B.

J.

B.

Do you remember one of the fellows who was in your line-up at Dallas.

You remember Breakstone.

sere George you can tell me. Supposing,

and you dann good and well who controls ballas now, supposing

Binnie Binion and ail this bunch, you knor they control it, and

suppose somebody else comes in here and they happen to buy me off

or not buy me off but happen to taxe care of me,

what's going to

happen to Binion and them.

They are going to do lots of shooting.

There ain't going to be no shooting.

Hell, there would have to be.

In friction like that Paul --

In the first place those people are pretty smart and in the second

place they are not as rough as they claim to be. Don't let nobody

ever kid you that he wants to invite trouble.. Don't nobody want to

invite trouble. Now let me tell you something. It is like a lavyer

that came to me one time and saia he mantea to advise me that there

He says course i want you to know that if

you get into any trouble I'm a lawyer and if any of your boys get

into any trouble I'll kelp defend them. I knew he sent for me and

I told him that you go back and tell them that for every hair

that is harned on the head of my people I will put 10 stiffs in

your door every morning. Every morning there will be l0 stiffs

packed in your door. You can go back and tell then that.

ire operate

awfully funny. In first place we are armed.

We are honest. People

cannot understand that. We are very very honest. : I mean, in other

words suppose Butler is with us and we sent him somewhere to see

somebody.

üe tells me who he is to see and who he sees.. If any-

thing happens to him we go to see and get the person whom we went to

see:

Suppose me sent him somewhere to take some money and he don't

come back with the money.

It may take one month or 6 months but

we will eventually know what happened to Butler and what happened

to the money, and if öutler was in therong, that's all, but if

Butler was in the right re mill see that butler's people are taken

care of and the people who were on Butler are taken care of. Let me

tell you something.

Let me show you how we operate as a syndicate.

we O.K. a lot of people, peope who are in no way at all connectea

mith us.

They come to us wanting to know if we will Uk them

operating place.

We investigate them and ii Ok we let them operate

for a piece of the operation.

he OK'd Lipski down here. We did not

OK him for some things that he said he would like to do and as soon

as we knew those things we immediately took our Of off Lipski and

ran Lipski out of here.

I though Lipski was the head chief.

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J.

Go

J.

G.

You know how we get mixed up with Lipski. He was a dairyman in

Chicago. Lipski startea the Farmers Co-operative Association and

he wanted the Jairyman Union, of which we are interested in; and he

manted us to Of him and his Cooperative Union.

After while Lipski

He went into the black market

whiskey business with a fellor named louis Isharo (phonetic) and they

made about one million dollars quick. Lipski and Isharo bought the

Lockheed factory in Los Angeles. The Internal Revenue moves in on

him and he loses everything. Lipski goes to Mick DeJohns and said I

am broke.

I want to leave Chicago and would like a little help. He

had never been to ballas, Texas in his life.

I got him a room and he

came to Dallas and just drove around and told me he would like the li-

quor.

"anted to know the law on beer here. He said he haâ an opening

for 5,000 gallons of bondea whiskey in kegs.

5,000.

Yes, he said t would like to have a store to put it through. I said

vinat's the deal. He told me. He said i have already talked to Nick.

I said why don't you go back to Chicago anà talk to Nick and I'll

call Nick and tel him you'll be down.. We opened a store, then a

bigger store as the first one wasn't big enough.

He said send me

two

clerks from Chicago. I ask why he didn't hire local clerks and

he said he had rather have somebody he knew and could trust. I said

OK. He sent 2 fellows whom 1 aid not know. da told them to come to

me.

Iney called me and told me they vere in room so and so at the

Aaolphus, so i went down to see them. I look at them and they tell me

that lipski sent them cown.

They continued living at the golphus.

Next time I talk to Nick i told him these 2 licuor clerks sent from

Chicago were still living at the Adolphus, eating at big places, and

opened charge account at weinans. I said how about it, a little nigh

note at he at desal novel

isn't-it.:

de said move them. I moved them to the Scott Hotel. They

didn't like it.

One of them said that is a hell of a way to treat me

after what my

dad did for you.

Vinat your daà dia for ne.. He saia, yes.

I said, who is your dad.

he said lago langano. I said sure your dac

was a good friend of minue, but what are you and Jimmie doing clerking

in a liquor store. He said, clerking in a liquor store, we are going

to take over all the whiskey places with lipski. 1 call wick and said

come to dallas and bring Lipski with you. "They came that night. I

said before I tell you anything i said tell Nick what you tolà me.. He

sure I will tell him.

Ve are going to take over all the retail

wbiskey stores in Dallas with Lipski, Marty Ochs, Jimmie (the) Bee.

Nick says, Lipski, you are out of the whiskey business in ¡exas.

"you

are out":

that store closed dor as quickly as possible,

liquidatea, ana you ana Jimmie come on back to Chicago. inen you

arrested them there wasn't a bottle of whiskey in the store.

But they had their orders in.

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J.

I want to explain how that happened, because that stinks to high heaven.

Lipski said he was going to lose lots of money liquidating the store. He

said he would stay here if Nick would let him.

Nick said Faul is there

nim. I said there is a distributorship that can

oe bought. Lipski said t'11 buy it. 1 sald where are you going to get

your $70,000. He said I'll get it from Paul. raul's night club, Chicago.

Sgt. Akard from the Chicago Folice brought $60, 000 and he bought one balf

interest in Southwestern Amusement Co.

G.

Is Lou Schneider one of nis men.

J.

Yes, you was one of his men but lou came later, he was in the irmy at this

time. Lou says to me I want to operate in Dallas.. Lipski says to me,

look I'll guy in in tallas.

I say, now marcus if you want to get in

Dallas I'll go to Chicago with you and we'll sit down with the man in

Chicago and get their OK.

Aîter ne did this they said, look Paul what-

ever you say is UK, we'll hold you responsible you've been at Dallas 6

years and you know how things are.

Go

Paul I thought you were a Dallas man.

J. No I have been here 6 years.

G. Are you from Chicago?

J.

Yes, but 1 have lived here t years. My epople are from l'exas; my cousin

is a mechanical engineer in Gainesville. The Chicago people said they

woula hold me responsible for lipski's activities in lexas. Lipski says,

I want to take over all slot machines.

I say, all right you tell me how you vant to do and we'll see what we can

Lipsal says to me, raul we'll grab minion, miller, Dalton,

and Bennie,

Bickers, those four, and park them in a car in front of the police station.dead.

I put a stop to that. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life in the "stir".

I told him that I have livea with these people, I have worked with them ano

olayed with them and I think I knor their reaction. That would be the

wrong thing to do.. In the first place you're not going to take them over.

If the opportunity ever presents itself I'll take them over, not you.

We argued for several days.

He said well' Paul what about the slot machines,

hor about me taking over all them.

I said all right I'll give you the

slot machines but you are going to have to buy them and at their terms.

I'll get them all together and find out how much money it will take if

they want to sell. So i bought out the slot machines and juke boxes in

Shreveport, Monroe, duston, Louisiana, Ft. Smith, Arkansas, Mineral Wells

and first oen place anä another. I then left for mexico lity and Nick

called me in Mexico Üity and told me to come to lallas. He had gotten some

reports from Dallas and they veren't very good. So I came back and the first

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person I ran into was Danny Lardinen So I called lark. I said Mars

I want you to come out to see me, what are you going with vanny

Lardino down here.

He said Danny Lardino is with ne. I said, Danny

Lardino is with you, what are you trying to ao show power down here.

he said, why not, why not.

i have all the slot machines and

juice boxes down dere and miles to de cleans, thy not show a little

power down here.

I said I an going to show you a little power Mark.

I pick up telephone in his presence and 1 called Wick and 1 told

Nick,

1 want Mark and "everyboäy connected with him out, not only

in lallas but in the South.

I want them out quick.

Just so there

won't be any trouble and that they pack and pack quickly you had

better send me some men down here.

Nick says who do you want Paul

and I say so aná so and so and so. Mark says no Paul, wait Faul, wait

raul, l'll bet out. I said to Nick, wait a minute Nick haybe it

Nick said he would call Danny Lardino's brother

to have Danny to return to Chicago immediately. So they called all

G.

Is that why they left town?

J.0N47

That's when they left town. sere's what happened to me.

My people

called me and told me to come here and straighten out this matter.

I

called Captain Fritz when I came into town, and I found out that every-

boay had been picked up and questioned and I ask then what they had

They said nothing Paul, ve ain't done nothing. I said to Lioski,

what have you been aoing. Nothing, not a thing Paul. I said if you

are not doing nothing there is not going to be any trouble., But I

found he was trying to buy a big building in town they were building

for nim across from the ranger Hotel where he was going to open a big

called Fritz, Dallas Police Department.

at rite cause tet need to get me like a don,

Cuba anà saia, Paul, Bill Decker wants to talk to you. I caught the

first plane out and

went to see Bill.

Inat's the way

we work.

I con't

care who you want of my people regardless of where he is. he will. come:

in immediately. I called Captain Fritz. I said, Captain Fritz this is

Paul Jones.

He saia, yes now are you.

i an a little tired I just flew

I said Captain Fritz I want to talk to you.: He said yes Paul come

on down. I said OK I'll be down in a few minutes.

-i go down and he

says sit down.

while'd am waiting there i kept waiting and waiting

and pretty soon I say Captain what is this a small time frane. Pretty

soon he says come on in here Paul. He takes me in another room and

locks me up and goes out and picks up everybody in town and throws

then in jail. "e stay in jail until my attorney goes to Lake dallas ana

gets the juage to sign a writ to get us out early Sunday morning, and

Fritz hasn't talked to me yet.

G. That's pretty damn cheap.

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J.

This is what I wanted to tell Fritz. Look Fritz we OK'd some people

down here and made a mistake, it was the understanäing that they were

not to bother anybody and did

not want anything other then business

they were already in.: I'll have them all out of tow in a couple of

days.

I'll send them back to Chicago. I am sorry it happened and

promise it will not happen again.

B.

Jo

Who dia they put in Paul.

Vieinberg, Labriola, Breakstone, "ou Schneider, Jinny Barcella and

some others.

G. Is Schneider still living?

J. Yes.

G. I heara he got inocked off.

J.

No, one of Lipski's boys,

Conklin, in Houston.

Yes it was Conklin.

Here is whet vonklin tried to ão.

He went back to Houston and tried

to cross us. He beat it from here to Houston.

Here is my idea that

I am very much interested in. I am going to ask a question.. Are you

opposed to Joe Cunningham being my laryer?

G. I don't know I would have to think it over.

J. Let me tell you this

6. I like doe Cunningham.

J.

If I told you Joe Cunningham was my lawyer would Joe lunningham have your

whole-hearted interest.

G. Well, before you go any further let me tell you something first.. I

been a poor man all my life.

i know there is going to be gambling

in Dallas.. I'm not goint to be a fool, I don't care who I play ball

with regardless of who it is 1 am not going to be anyboay's fool, but

l. K. Ixin and Joe lunningham offered me the measley sun of. 7, 500

to buy me out of this race when it is worth one half million dollars

year to a man if he plays it right and I knor it.

has been paid, and I know what Bill Decker has been paid.

I don't

know exactly what they have been paid but if he wanted me to get out why

diän't he offer me some money.

J. I mention Joe Cunningham because I trust Joe Cunningnam to the (nth)

degree.

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Well I wouldn't trust anybody in that office if they just offered me

$7500.

run tr.neoe

Here is my proposition to you. You pick a man, a local man, we will

put him in business. We will rent him a building but we will finance

He will put in some juke boxes, some marble tables, some slot

machines.

• will get nim a mechanic and a pick-up truck. He will

no muscles

attached. Somebody that you trust. If you trust him,

start hustline settine ale sume locations, logitinatel trust aim.

We will furnish nim all the slot machines, marble tables, punch boards,

etc., te will operate and there will be only one gambling house in the

CoNCOUNTY.

And you will open the Southland and the Blue bonnet and —

vait a minute, let me finish. I am talking about when you take

office.

I.. The county is all you have;you can't mess with the city to begin with.

Go That's what you think

J. Vell, I mean to be a good sheriff.

Go

Now wait a minute. To be a good sheriff i an over every man in

Dallas. I can come in any time I want to.

J.

No, but wait a minute. But if you do without having it properly set

up everything is going down and nobody will be coming up.

Go

In other vords, I can close town, I mean the whole town.

J. Yet, you cannot Of somebody to run the town.

C. You are right there it has to come from other sources.

Let me get the other sources before you start anything in town. ' I am

going to show you how to get the other sources. Let's just think in

terns of the county now. We will immediately open a club.. We!ll

use local men.

You want bring in any "hicago men.

J.

Iwill have only one man there who is capable of stopping the money.

Put he looks like a preacher, he is quite, he is not a Dago, be is

not a Jew, and even your man won't know who he is.

Put he will be

there every night shooting dice.. He'll lose.

He'll win.

He'll lose

and be'll win. He protects the game.

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Go

J.

G.

J.

While we are on this subject I want to get a few things straight. I

an a young man at this thing... You know the church people put me on.

You know yourself that nobody was behind me. What would they say if

I opened up a joint out in the county.

You're not going to open the joint.

Well I mean if a joint is openea. linat about tonzaullas, he'll can

my ass off.

You have nothing to do with this joint.

G. I know, I ron!'t even know it is out there.

J:

Tae man that you get, ti's local wan, has a place of buginess inollar

He will hire local men to run it.

In other words

go with me tonight.

mean, they are all local men.

will be the ones that se running it, yet your man will handle the

money.

All I am going to have out there is a man to protect the geme

to see that the "deals" don't throw the money away.

Your man is there

to handle the money, and I am going to have a man there to protect

him because he is not going to be smart enough, because all he can do

is to keep sonebody from taking it out of his pocket.

And if ferra

New Yorker, Clint Matheson or some of those boys come in, and they will

be in with a couple hundred thousand in their pocket to shoot at.

you, you want to be able to protect yourself.

G:. I think that is out of the question as to the county.

J/ Why?

G: Well you know way, they haven't had it so far.

J: Why?

G: The damn state would get on their ass,

man/

J: Why doesn't the state get on "Jöp of the üill".

G:

Because Amel Carter, takes care of that I imagine. You take Gonzawles.

I don't now whether he has anythine to do with this or not but he is

rough.

J:

They take care of Gonzaulles in the City why not in the county.

Gi Yes, but do they take care of him in the city, do they?

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Here is what I am trying to get straight. you know you are my

friend.

I can trust you. how in the hell are we going to open a

place when there hasn't been a place in the county.

That is one reason why the syndicate has no complaint to make,: that 15

why I want to open in the county.

B¢ The County, virgin territory.

Go I know it is virgin territory.

Jo I an not stepping on no bodys toes if we open in the county.

Ob, shit man, you don't know. I am telling you boy, I am scared of

thos Rangers. They can get me.

J.

How?

They say, Guthrie, come here we are going out here and put a pad-lock

on this joint.. Then there goes all the money..

All right, suppose they come out and are caused to close the place.

Before they do that, before they come in don't you think it would be

smart for you to raid the place once in a while.

Jo.

But Paul you can

t get by those boys.. They slip in here without anybody

knowing 1t.

Well maybe lf the Rangers get too active, maybe they might be transferred

to El Paso or some place like that for their bealth.

G. How about Gonzales?

J. Gonzaulles gets along here allright. He has not bothered anybody.. Has

he bothered anybody?

Go

Well I don't know that he has bothered anybody but I know he is here

24 hours a day, six days a week.

J.. There is only one man I am not sure of and that is Will Wilson.

G. Well, I tell you one thing, Will is rough.

J.. I would like to know how we can handle Will Wilson.

Go Well he is a little rough, Paul.

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^?..

J.

Go

015-

Your man

handles all the noney.: He hires the people he wants to

work. All I can do is give him the facts from the background. I'll

advise him. io body is going to know that I am going to have anything

to do with it. I am going to show bim how to make money.:: We are

going to finance everything 100%.

All right you say you are going to finance everything 100%, how much

are you going to put out for will Wilson?

J. 1 would offer Will Wilson -

Go 1 mean an initial proposition. de has got a little money.

J. i would offer Will Wilson a percentage.

Go 10 Initial?

Jo

Do, 1'11 tell you why. I want you people to see how it is.

You have

You have your

payroll, your mechanic, office help, that all comes off the top. You

have got to take care of Gonzaulles, you have got to take care of this

Vice Squad, that all comes off the top. Then you arrive at the profit.

He will divide the profits 50-50. All profits fron the gambling, marble

tables, slot machines, punch boards, go into the company. When we

later take over the city of Dallas it will al go into this company.

I will guarantee you that you will have noopposition for re-election.

G. How much would my take for a week be, give me an idea.

Jo.

I'll tall you what it should amount for a month.: it will take some-

time to get it organized.

Go no body else but mine.

J.

You should have $40,000 a month.

a month.

Forty or forty-five thousand dollars

Go

I have a question to ask.

See my salary is $7700 a year. I could take

$40,000 a month but where in the Hell would I put It.

Jo

I'll show you.

Go

You have to pay the tax.

J.

Jes you do, you can't beat it.

The best way to do it 1s, I'll tell you

how we operate. Now 1f I didn't feel we are going to make & deal I

wouldn't tell you.

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J.

You wouldn't want me to go around town saying I an negotiating with

you. Even after 1 make this offer if anybody says I said it, it is

a damn 1ie.

G. Sure.

Bo That's right.

J.

Just let me tell you thatthen time comes for you to make. your income

tax out a man will take you to the Income Tax Department and your

money but they will settle with you bach return is a compromise

settlement. See what I mean. It is like this, you walk in and say,

Ilsten, I made a lot of money, didn't keep no records and don't know

where lots of it came from, but my man does the talking.. He takes

you to the man who knows what it is all about.

G.

You know Paul yourself that you can't spend a pocket full of money.

J.

He are going to worry about you more than you are going to worry about

yourself.

G. I don't know about that.

J.

They are not going to let you do anything that will embarrass you because

it is our interest to protect you, we have got to. He do everything

possible to keep crime down in the county.

You know that when crime

is committed the heat is put on you. he can't keep kids from stealing

autonobiles, but we can keep any known criminal from operating in the

county.

G. I don't think you can get to Will Wilson without an initial offering.

Jo

that do you mean an initial offering.

G. I mean he will have to have some money in advance..

Jo

Let me tell you something.: From Wilson's stanapoint, It would be a

mistake for him to do that. Because Wilson is not sure what he can

do for us.

Go

You know what he can do for me.

J.

Look, 1f I go down and give Wilson $5000 to protect me, but 1f WIlson

is a partner in something all he can do is the best he can. "e want you

to be a good Sheriff. All we want to know is when this and that is

going to happen.

inen you are going to raid the dice games so fe want

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have our good equipment out.: Come on in and chop up the tables, just let

me know.. He want Will Wilson to be a good District Attorney.

We own in

the United States today all the plane enamel wire, that is why there is no

more available.: We have nearly all the out put of the steel nills tied

See what I mean.

You see all 1 do for my people is organize the

territory. I organize the territory but anything I tell you, only tell

you what I can do.

See what I mean.: You can't see me.

can't be active.

I have other business to do. Someone will advise them constantly, and train

The mechanics will come with the machines. They just aren

t avallable

down here.

Go

How will i get tied in. You know there is going to be a new city

election in April.

J. I want you to recommend, Now

i tell you one thing about Joe Cunningham :—

G. So, 1 Ilke Joe personally, but I a

I. io you don't have to worry about Erwin.

G. You say you don't have to..

J. No. I. K. #ill do just what I tell him.

Go. He will?

J.: The reason we use T.K.

Go Did you all run Joe?

Jo He tried to keep him from running and he wanted to run.

Go You all didn't have anybody in the DA race?

J. Not no body. Priest offered me for $10,000 campaign expenses that, that

was all I would have to give him for two years.

Go Now

tell me, no you don't have to tell me unless you want to. Did you

get tied up in the Sheriff's race?

J. No, not at all.

S.

I don't think Snoot Schmid is getting anything out of the city of.

sowd tell you where he is getting all. that money. : His two

Deputies who are uniform cruisers in the Sheriff's office, that operate

on the Northwest dighray. I know the fellows with slot machines around

White Rock Lake, and Roff's hicken Shack. They pay these men $25 a week

a piece.

Now they are cheating on Smoot.

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You mean these uniforn men take the money.

J. Yes, $25 a week each for leaving those machines alone.

B. How many machines would you say he had 'in all.

Go

He must have about 30 in all going.: Don't you know somebody in the

Sheriff's office is operating machines. "You know who is operating

them too, Al Meadows.

J.

But all this can't be done in a day. or a week, it has to be done

gradually, Here is what I want to do. I could have come to you and

offered you so much a week or month and get a protecting account.

You want to be Sheriff.

B.

Didn't you mention being in Charleston and operating there. Is that

a new Sheriff?

I believe they run their city and county together.

J.

Yes, everybody works together.

Now that 1s what I want, definitely

we want to cooperate. "e want to be interested in this new city.

ticket that is coming. We will pour some money into that election and

we'll have a favorable ministration in the city, one that will

be the city administration that you people: want. - We will go down the

line with them.

Go

You know you are awful big, but I still wonder If It would be worth

the $40,000 a month, about one half million a year.

J.

You are very conservative.

G. Do you think I could make the one half million a year for six or 8 years?

J. . As long as you want to be Sheriff.

Go

I know big money is being paid in Dallas but still - d know

they could cover the money up but hell what good is going to do me,

don't make but $7700 a year, you can't hide lt under your house.

J.

Ion are not going to have to hide it. You are going to pay incone tax

on it.

Go

But suppose somebody went down to the Income Tex Bureau and say we want

to check on

Guthrie's Income, some of my opponents, and they see where

I cleared nearly one half million dollars. Suppose some of my opponents

do that, well man 1 am whipped.

Mr. Guthrie, we'll let our worrying Department worry about that.

Go: Ies, but I have got to know about these things. I don't want to get

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In that Federal pen.. I want to go on in there and make myself some

money•

I want to be honest, but I want to make sone money because it

is there to make.

Jo

He have never beat a man who where. No where. I don't know of an

Incident where we were responsible for a man being beat. Take

Tucson, Arizona, during election this year. There was 16 people

running for Sheriff; but when all was over the man was elected without

opposition.. You mention the churches.

We contribute to them: too.

He don't forget them. You can be Sheriff of this County as long as

you want to Steve.

Go' Is that why Smoot has been Sheriff so long?

Un, " don't know, of course they took pretty good care of me. I got

everything out of the Sheriff's Office I ever ask for.

Vie all know that Bilbecker is a pay off man with Binnie Binion. You

know it don't you?: You know that George.

B. Yes.

J. Look, I have got to make a call or the lawyer will be calling.. I'n

going to call Chicago collect. (Jones calls Haymarket 1427)

J.

Fest Virginia is a monopoly state. No whiskey during 0.P.A. Governor

of West Virginia said my people want whiskey. He said. I want to make a

deal with you. You furnish us enough whiskey for West Virginta, d'll

give you exclusive gambling privileges in the entire state. I said, it's

a deal. He started shipping whiskey in the State.

In next record Jones relates about Bob Minyard getting killed. States

It was done by sonebody who was mad at Bob for some personal reason such

as jealousy, rather than being gangland killing, the only justification

WaS

that Minyard was shot with a shot gun.

Next record Paul Jones relates conversation in which resulted in his

contacting Bob Minyard, local deceased gambler, on occasion in which Paul

had requested his wife to contact Mingard to obtain $1000 to send to him

in Kest Virginia.. Minyard allegedly becane fresh with his wife and

apologized to Jones when Jones contacted him.

On this record Jones relates his association mith a negro Doctor in

Dallas whom he names as Dr. Keys, a negro Dentist which Dentist recognized

him on the streets in Dallas and told Paul that he would give him anything

he wanted in negro town if he would get negro Policemen on the Dallas

Police force.

de relates that Dr. Keys took him to negro. Chamber of

Commerce meetingi and introduced him to many influential negroes throughout

Dallas.

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Jones relates that through this association his organization will have

no trouble in taking over policy ganes among negroes in lllas.

In the next record Jones relates an amusing incident regarding his meeting

a former negro maid. of theirs on streets of Dallas while he was accompanied

by his wife.

Jones says this business I am in is organized business. We fight a lot

of those.

Dope; we are not interested. We know who sells dope in a town

and we have nothing to do with 1t.. He don't handle it; we don't touch it.

Only horse bookles, dice, slots, etc.

G. Isn't slots the main idea.

Jo.

I'Il tell you, "ere is why we like slots... Slots sit there and grind all

day and all night. They make a lot of money. A slot will last 25 years.

It is not cheating, you know what It will pay off.

This thing is such a big organization Paul is there any chance: for anyone

else to come in?

Jo No chance.

Is "apone boys still living?

J. Yes.

G. Ralph?

J. Yes.

Go Is he operating the main thing?

J.

1o. He is not the main man but he has done an awful lot of good work.

Ralph was never a big man. Guzik. Jack Guzik is the main man.

G.

J.

He is head of the whole thing.

They call him Greasy Thumb. I'il tell you one thing we are trying to

do. He would like. to. do it down here through the next legislature, that

is to operate a currency exchange.. Jones relates how currency exchange

operates.: States they control all exchanges in Chicago and that for small

service charge they will pay all the persons bills or cash their checks.

He points out that this is an aid to gambling inasmuch as an influential

person who drops a lot of money at a crap game may need to cash a check

to pay off his debt although he would not desire to have a check made

payable to a dice table or a known gambler. Therefore he. can passa

check through a money exchange which is a respectable organization.

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In these

exchanges Jones relates that they are ideal for cashing black

market checks.

First part of record forty-one Jones continues to

describe. the working

of money exchanges and other casual conversation.

Go Paul what about the Internal Revenue Department on this deal?

J. They have never at any time prosecuted

anyone without first offering to

settle. They want your money, that is all they want.

Go

i.

How about Capone?. He got sent up on Tax evasion.

They tried to use him for an example and that was the only thing they

could ever convict Capone on. They knew he was guilty of lot of things

but that was all they could make a case on.

B. Where is Capone now?

J. Jones did not reply.

Jones states that an example of Internal Revenue's operation was

Steinberg case.

That Internal Revenue offered to make a settlement but

Steinberg refused.

Reason being if he made settlement with then he would

admit his black market activities and mas afraid of prosecution. Jones

said if he had been Steinberg he would have settled with Internal Revenue

and taken his chance with O.P.A.

G. Paul did you ever pull any time.

J. Yes.

G. How many?

J. 9 years 7 months 5 days altogether.

G. Federal case.

J. No, State, for killing a State witnesss.

G. For killing a state witness....

J.

I got two life terms to run concurrently. I was pardoned.. My record shows

released expiration of sentence.

Gi.

There did you get your time.

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J. Kansas

G. Leavenworth?

J. Yes.

Go Paul you know how storles go around but I heard that while you were in prison

you entertained and traveled around with. the Governor and other people a

lot of time.

J.. Yes, I spent lot of time in Indiana, New Orleans,

Minneapolis and St. Paul.

The Governor should have taken me hunting with him we elected: him. Nobody

ever heard of the man till we elected him and later made him Secretary of

War.

Wino was the Democratic Secretary of War?

J. Did you ever hear of a fellow by name of Harry Woodrun?

Go Sure, I'll be darn.

Jo

I'll show you what we did, and they left that up to me. I was out on appeal

bond at time I figured out höw I could get out.

They put me in a coal mine

digging coal, and I got to figuring that they had only had 3 Democrat

history of the G-D state and that it was always Republi-

* got to thinking bow we could elect a Democrat Governor.. If I could

get one elected he would be so obligated to me that he would have to pardon

me the first thing he did, his first Official act. Not even my people

thought of this, nobody but me. I was the only one that thought. I had a

chance to get out, because there was a State Senator involved in it.

He

was the Speaker of the State Senate who was afraid if I ever got out I

mould either Involve him or kill him one or the other and I used to read

his letters of protest in which he would beg and plead that the prison

authorities place me in solitary confinement.: I contected my people and got

them to get the mall service to send out material to all precincts and con-

mitteemen.

Á11 the Committeemen in State of Kansas would get letters each

week from different people mailed fron this post office.

We contributed :

large amount of money for Democratic campaign to further the cause of the

Democratic candidacy in State elections..

He contributed to this year after

year and there was no known connection between me and this movement. Fin-

ally after building up this organization elected Moodring as Governor of

the State. We later elected Euxnuth. I was handling this while in the

prison office. I aid the buying for the prison. I opened a business in

the prison of loaning money to prisoners. hould loan $10 taking off inter-

est given them $9.

Tie can even elect. Smoot Schmid but two Centenniels, one State Fair and a

üarvey. Bailey is enough for any one Sheriff. Harvey Bailey was a nice

pay off deal.

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G. How much did he make off Belley.

Jo

It was a nice pay off but I don't remember how much. Bailey was a nice

fellow.

Go He didn't get very far on that break did he?

J. Did you ever see Bailey?

G. Never did.

J. He was a nice fellow.. Looks like a businessman. Mice, quiet, gentleman

acting fellow, nice and quiet, scholarly gentleman appearance. After

they took the

warden they opened the gates and invited everybody to get

out. it must have been a half hour after they got the warden that they got

out. Bailey was the one they brought the guns to.

Go

Paul do you remember the Urschel kidnapping case?

J. Oh, yes, well. We engineered it all.

G. Where did he go on that case?

J.

First to Leavenworth then on the Rock. Here is what I couldn't under-

stand, the fact that Bailey shot his way out the Känsas State Prison 1s

the reason he went to the Rock.

But Bailey would be a prisoner until he

got an opportunity to go out..

de was a model prisoner.

Hept a clean

cell and abided by every rule and regulation. Hould ask for nothings

didn't want to see a lawyer, use a telephone, just sit down and do his

time.

Go Was he ever the big boss?

J.

job, but nobody can do anything; about it.

G:

look wouldn't it be better for me to go with some gang not so well known,

they are liable to tie Capone right on my "butt".

J. Nobody is going to know you have made a deal.

G: They are going to know

something is going on.

J. It will be local.

G: All of them?

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J. Every one of then.. Everybody will be.

G. There won't be any outsiders?

J.

Not a one.

The only outsider will be a slot machine mechanic.. Every

slot machine in Dallas at present time, I sent from Chicago. ' :If you

don't want one from Chicago, I

have one in Buffalo, N.Y. I can send.: This

will betall local man, and won't be anybody come in.

come down here will be ones who come only for a visit, they won't go ar-

ound the place. See what I mean. Nobody will know they have anything to

do with it.

There wont be man one down bere.: You pick the man. All we

are going to do is train him.. The man you pick. I will take him to Chi-

cago with me for couple of weeks or maybe to New Jork. Let him stay

there. Let him see everything, then I will put him in business. I'll

rent the building in his name, nothing will be in my name, will be 1o-

cal, the only man we have here will be that one crap shooter. He will

never speak to us on the street.

Nobody will ever know him.

All I want

to do is train and finance.

Put its got to be local.

Let him find the

building, put in his office, and the equipment will start coming to him

marked paid. Everything paid. He bought and paid for it.

In other; words if we made a deal then I fould not have to worry about

Will Wilson, District Attorney, or anybody else.

J.. I an going to get to Will filson. My man may come to you.

I mean

my lawyer, and believe me you have got to tell my lawyer everything.

Go Inat's right.

That's why I say if you are opposed to Joe Cunningham, then I have got.

to take who you tell me to take. I mould like for it to be Joe lunning-

hall.

In other words it will all be off of me. You will take care of the DA,

Fangers, and everybody.

I. I won't, tho ever is in charge of the thing will, my lawyer.

G: How you know he can do it?

J. he are going to do it but my lawyer is going to do that.

hiy lanyer is

going to do what I tell him. Hould you go with my lawyer to Will wilson

or would you talk to Will filson first.

G. I might do it after he has been felt out.

j. He has already been felt out.

G. He has?

J.

Yes, he has already been felt out. After I make my deal with you I am

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I don't want to discuss it with

you any more.

crawling out of the picture.

G.

Is the FBI

J.

They are all right.

Don't worry about the Government. I don't worry

about any of them, they are not going to bother us, in any shape form or

fashion.

C. They are kindly rough.

J.

I don'

t care how rough they are they are not going to bother us.

They

are not going to bother us.

Let me tell you something about Joe lunningham. Joe lunningham knows to

win. In fact we had Dean Gauldin in Unicego at the last World series,

not this last time the one before.

G. You had Smoot Schmid?

J. Yes, they all came to Chicago and sit in our boxes.

G. That's right.

J.

The whole crew, end they know who we are.

We also sent them on to hashington.

Vie had the unusual case to come up.

vie had Tom lark too.

Tom Vlark knows

who we are. We had the unusual case to come up.

Jones tells about a kid boy associated with them who got in trouble over

The first It. was paid $500 by this

kid for a 6 months deferment. The ut. gets knocked off in California and

de squawks and tells who has paid him and how much..

They

immediately grab the kid. Jones made them defend him. He goes before Judge

B. But two days before the trial Juage B. loses 3 sons overseas. • The only

3 children in his family. He hears the trial and finds the kid guilty and

the judge gives him 15 years.

I'he Judge gave him all he could to run con-

secutively. The kid had no record.. Good kid.

We went to bat for him to

try to do something for him.

le went to offering money fron lom Clark up

on down.

the Juige was so prejudiced, so bitter that he gave him an un-

reasonable sentence.

Tie have had no luck, the kid 1s still in.

G. Looks like somebody like Clark or Mannegan could get him out.

J..

They wont buage an inch now, they eventually will but they won't yet.

(Remaining part of record casual conversation).

Majority of conversation inaudible, concerns discussion of slot machines.

losing remarks by Guthrie that if arrangements could be made with big

boys in thicago to start as they have arranged it, they could start in the county

al make big money.

THLEPHONE CALL FROM PAUL JONES IN CHICAGO TO GEORGE BUTLER,

NOVEMBER 3, 1946, OPERATOR 6440 In CHICAGO

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Stating they will be in Dallas Tuesday with "top" people.. Fants Governor's Suite

to adolphus for several days.

Three from Chicago; two from Las Vegas. Make re-

servations Paul Jones & party Has Gun ordered.

Guns are hard to get.

Wants

room big enough where they can have conference and there will not have to be

any going out and in.

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MEETING BETWEEN PAUL R. JONES, JACK KNAPP,

PAT WANNING, SHERIFF-ELECT SIEVE GUTHRIE,

COONIT, AND DETECTIVE GEORGE BUTLER, DALLAS PO-

LICE DEPARTMENT, HELD AT HOME OF STEVE GUTHRIE,

DALLAS, TEXAS, NOVEMBER 7, 1946.

P:

We have told STEVE that he's going to have a clean administration and that we're

going to guide him and not embarrass him in any way, shape, or form.

The pro-

gram is just this, norse booking, slot machines, dice, numbers, everything.

We're going to keeplit clean. Tie're going to take over quietly.

He're not

going to embarrass him.

We've got about a month and a half left before he

takes office, and it will take a month and a half to get things set up.

S:

Nov, on that starting immediately, I've got something to say about that.

start immediately you're gonna immediately have trouble with some of these

people.

P :

We've got a month and a nalf.

We've got to get a building to service and house

these machines, these slots and marble tables and all.

S:

P:

Prell, that may be true.

he'll pick a local man who will be the front man for that. So far as everybody

knows, he's the man who's putting these machines in, the local man.

We put the

money up and train him and advise him and shon him now to set up.

M:

Have you got that man?

KNAPP: Well, re've got a lot of prospects. We have got a half dozen.

M: You can't go out on the street.. Then it leaks out and he's preparing and ar-

ranging. You know what I mean?

K:

He got a half dozen.

M: I'de rather wait.

S: I'd rather wait too.

You can't be too hasty about these things.

I'd rather wait and sacrifice.

rather sacrifice

two or three months.

P:

fell, my idea in starting, and this is the only reason. When he goes in, he's

gonna close everything.

K:

He's got a pretty good point there.

I want him to close this men too.

See what I mean? Nov, this man's not gonna

get active.

Maybe he's oni going to have a haif dozen machines going by the

time this man takes office. When this man takes office, he closes

everything.

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This man too.

will

Everything goes down.

He closes all the operators.

This man

stop, too, which

he actually will be stopped.

Then he starts out again.

K: He's gonna start first.

P: He starts first.

See what I mean?

M: I don't think it exposes

you so if you throw a man in business who hasn't been

in business before as soon as he takes office.

But could you come out now with four or a half dozen machines under this pre-

sent system.

P:

Yes, under this present administration. I can come out with eight or ten mach-

ines.

I can get the county Judge to go to BILL DECKER and tell BILL DECKER.

"t go to BIlt DECKER myself and tell him I want to run a few machines.

ne's goine out: he's got two more months.

want to get you a little money,

BILI." You see, then theyr'e gonna be spotting for the machines,

M: I see

P: When I talk to the County Judge, I'm not promising for nothing. I talk to the

County Judge just like I do the Sheriff.

M:

These machines that

are approved by the county or State, now do they go about it?

How do they access?

Who do they see? Is there any kind of county charge or tex.

K: $100 tax on each one and the Council allows the machines.

P: Oh no, it's fixed with the Vice Squad.

M: For the machine, in other nords. It isn't a thing that's legitimately open or

anything?

P: It's open but -

GEORGE: It's over-looked.

P: It's protected.

M: Tnat's what I mean. It's over-looked.

G: I understand when they call in down there, they go out and pick up.

S: Pick up a fer..

N: When they've got a drive

newspapers.

When they've got the neat on?

rublicized by the

S; That's right. Then they pick up a few and they take pictures of them breaking

'em up, you know.

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M: I see.

G: One thing I'ä like to ask PAUl here. He's pretty much a planner from what I

hear him

say and pretty wise in the way of politicians, etc.

Horking for the

city like I do and knowing

how more or less vicious some of these boys are in

the local set-up, I just wonder how he would go about moving in. I know

almost in my mind thet he has plans already made within the organization

that they have. How are you going about moving in?

P: There'll be no gun-play because I

can take BURNS.

S: Hell, now,

there's

some rough boys.

P:

I know but BURNS will go with me.

All right, when BURNs goes with me, that

eliminates AL MEADOWS and those fellows.

Well, I know AL MEADOWS and all them. They're three times losers and all

They've got the wrong kind of people hooked up in some of their busi-

nesses, but -

P: MEADOWS is the head of the slot machines.

S:

Hell, there's been four killings here, and you know it yourself - Paul,

there's four boys here that'll kill anybody when they get ready, and all they

have to do is get $10,000, $20,000 or $30,000, and they'll do it. And that's

the boys that l'm worried about, those four.

I'm not worried. I mean I can

take care of myself. I can shoot 'em and they're paid for.

But they're going

to make it rough on me by shooting somebody else, I'm afraia.

G:

The thing we're getting into -

M: They've been here and have the thing?

P: No, they don't have it.

S: No, they don't have It. They're the trigger men.

P: The muscle man. They're thieves.

They even steal slot machines from the

Syndicate and sell 'em back to them.

M: That can be eliminated. That you'll find anywhere.

S: Oh, i don't care how re eliminate 'em.

M:

Regardless of where you go, you find that in small and big counties. A cer-

tain amount of petty thieves, you know that's all they are.

They should he run

out of town anyway.

S: I know and I intend to run them out.

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K: That's where you come in.

S: I really want to run them out.

M: The Chiei of Police and everybody else, that's their business. If they are

undesirable characters, they have no business in the city.

s:. No, and I don't want them here.

M: So we see to it that they are run out of town ourselves.

S: MR. MANNING, bere's the deal.

M: Call me Pat.

S:. O.F. Pat, this set-uo here.

There's a boy named LOIS GREEN." There's a boy

named JOHNNE GRASSATTI, JUNIOR THOMAS, WAG BARNES, and who else?

G:

Monk wright.

S: MOnK WRIGHT. Now, those boys are all up in the money now.

M: They should be run out of town.

S:

I know they ought. Now, I feel like I can get rià of these boys.

I would like

to get rid of 'em for good. I would like to take them out here and get ria of

them, that's what I want to do, ana if I possibly can, I will.

But I just

have to run them out, they're gonna make it awful miserable for me. They

hit.

They go either to San Antonio or Houston.

They've got tie-ups all ov-

er Texas.

I'm just telling you this because it's a thought.

They go out

here and get these boys, and they'll meke them come in here

and hit me and then

run.

Hit and run. Blow a safe,

shoot somebody, take out. "ell, it's hard to

Keep those guys out when you don't know who they are.. In other words, they

to Houston, anà pick up a boy and say "Come on, we got a place cased. Go

and knock it off and run."

So what do you think of that deal?

M:

well, Sheriff, it's like I told you in the beginning on that. Nobody in their

right

mind is going to come in here:

S: I think you got something there, too.

P:

Because I know all these boys.

I've had AL MEADOWS and all of them come to me.

They come to me with all kinds of propositions, and I told them I don't want

no part of it.

"Some guy's selling slot machines, "they come tell me. "We'll

go get

all of his machines. How much will you give us for it?" I tell them

I don't want these machines.

M:

Where do they get these machines?

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P:

Some other operator. They tell us, "We'll go -" In fact they did go out here

to old lady SNYDER'S place, you know.

Backed a truck up there and took all

of her equipment out. look it all.

An operator here in town backed a truck

up and took all of the equipment.

But AL MEADOWS and JOHNNIE and DELOIS GREEN

and those people are not going to bother you in no shape or form.

But here's what I really had on my mind, is the local gambling syndicate,

BINTON and MILLER and those fellows.

S: That's right. They tie up.

G: They make a big lot of cash, you see, and they might not want to take this

lying down. They might want to fight, you see?

S: The take right now - I know this, the take now - net

for one man out of the

policy game is one million a year net. That's his net.

M:

"ell, have you no such thing as a

mouthpiece for this syndicate:

S: Yes, but he's gone.

he don't stay here. There's about 25 or 30 people trying

to getrim, and he stays up in Montana.

P: He left here when the town kent down before, when they had

a little trouble

down here.

They all run out of town. They closed

everything dorn. He ain't

come back here end as long as I'm here, he won't come back.

S: but he's still running the town.

P: He's still running the town.

S: From Montana.

P: He won't come back because his number two man got killed here.

Ni:

What's his name,

BINYON?

P: BINYON.

S: BENNIE BINYON.

G: Have you ever heard about him up there?

ill: io, never have.

S: He's a pretty big man.

M: I'a like to make notes. Do you mind?

s: No, have you got somethine to male them

on?

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Go let's get him a plece of paper.

S& Here you are.

M: Jot these names down. I can write on this.

P: Bennie Binyon, B-I-N-I-O-N.

You mentioned one of the present fellows here.

What was his name, ANGELOTTI?

S: JOHNNIE GRASSAFFI.

I: Is he an Italian boy?

S: Yes, Boy, be's a killer.

M: What's his last name?

& GRASSAFFI

P: This JOHNNIE, tough, is just a locel boy.

S: Yes, but he's in he money.

": He's the one who does the killing for lem.

s: He's the trigger man.

P:

He handles dope.. Hels got three or four whores working for him.

He's

got three Cadillacs that cruise up and down

the

streets with gals in 'em.

M:

Where are the city police? Where do you come in?

is this is a different phase of the work tha n I'm in. I'm on vacation now.

5: I'm gonna have him transferred to the Vice Squad.

G: I don't know. They pick these girls up.. Theyive a policy here of picking. them

up regularly and letting them pay fines and suggesting to them to discontinue.

It's a regular set-up.

There's 1400 of them a month go through there.

M:

A situation like that a nonth certainly departs the law. I mean, that's the

time you should go right on through and prosecute, because they are a menace

to society. When you get in office, you should go out and bring them in.

After all, you got. a law here. Iou don't have to take things like that fron

those petty hoodluns.

For that? They only embarrass you again while you're

in office. Maybe the sheriff, ridicules him going out in the street and shoot

ing up ilain Street, whatever your main street is here.

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S:

Oh, they do it too.

so very long ago?

They do it.

walked up here - You know what happened

no

This LOIS GREEN, he's power crazy.

P. That's the one I ras telling you about. Let me tell it; it's a funny story.

S:: About the street car deal? Is that what you mean?

P: No, I'm

gonne tell about shooting this guy through the house.

S: Let me tell him about this street car deal.

M: it home they get caught every time they walk the street. We have certain squad.

over there, you know. They come out and get some of these certain fellows

Every time they walk, they won't let them walk the street.

Put 'en right

in their car, right to the bureau. Keep 'em there for two or three nights,

unless they get sprung before. Every time they walk the street.

S:

I'll show you how tough this GREEN thinks he is, and he is tough. He gets on

the front on the car track, street car track, and the street car man rings his

bell for him to get off, and he just sits right on it.

So the street car man

just keeps ringing his bell for him to get off, and he wouldn't get off.

So finally LOIS stopped his car right on

the track, got out, pulled his gun

out, and went up and broke the window and said "If

that bell again,

I'll blow your head off".

M: Well, he's not tough; he's crazy.

S: He's been tough. I mean. He know what he's done.

M: He's probably out of his mind. He belongs in a cell. That's right.

S: That's right.

M: The toughest guys I knot, you never get a word out of then for four hours.

Those are the tough guys that I knon.

The guy that you just described as a

tough guy, he's no tough guy.

G: Now here'n what's -

M: They should be driven out of town or kept in the can, and you can tell them

that you'll see to it that he is.

G:

Here's what STEVE don't want and here's what's happened. The reason this guy

is running around like he is.

He does that promiscuously, yousee. Like PAUL

was fixing to tell you about him shooting up a house with a machine-gun down

Well, he didn't do 1t, but had it done.

He'll come up and say, "Yeah,

I did it, MR. BUTLER.

I''n not a bit sorry. You would have done it yourself

if he had done you that way."

Well, he can go right down there and get those

indictnents quashed. They don't want to have to put up with that kind of

deal. In other words, you and the District Attorney have been elected on a

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more or less clean up ticket.

To get rid

of the gang, and it's been

a source

of embarrassment to the Police

Department.

We file on them and they go down

there and you say "bingo" -

S:

They never put one in the penitentiary.

P: You remember we had a new District Attorney elected. All right,

so you bring

in a murder indictnent against GREEN, or you bring in any kind of a warrant

on Green that you want on him, and he's not going to get quashed in that

grand jury, not under WILL.

S: I don't think

SO.

P: i Enow he's not.

S: I don't think so either, not under WILL.

P: He's not going to get it.

G:

Tell iT. MANNING about this bird shooting up the house Paul, you had some

story there you wanted to tell.

¡PEE JONES tells the SEUry Of GRUENS Join in tae hone ai a dove pedalar,

sitting out in front in the

car waiting until the man comes home.

doesn't see the man until he's going right in the door, so they go around to

the side of the house and get a view through one window of about where the

He then shoots the

the house.)

man through the wall clear through the side of

$:

What does that sound like to the Police

Department?

The next day they see what

has happened here.

K: Something wrong with the Police Department.

S: Yes, where are they?

M: This is all so petty, so small.

P: The lay, they don't go at night. The only man you got to worry about, STEVE,

is the fellow who goes to church every Sunday and vou don't know mho he kill-

ed. That's the guy you got to worry about, and you don't know that he killed

anybody.

S: You know yourself how many have been killed this year. I don't want any of

that stuff on me.

P: Ordinarily when two people like that tangle, like LOIS GREEN kills POOLE or

POOLE kills LOIS GREEN, they don't even mention it in the paper. Why should

they mention it? Here's a cöuple of dope fiends.

One killed the other.

M:

Well, they encourage it in Chicago, because that's the only way you can do it.

Let

them take care of themselves.

Let them kill each other.

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P: But that has nothing to do with it: Those things are petty.

M:

Now, when you get in office, you know all of the prominent and most popular

petty thieves.

S: I know them all.

M:

You can call them in immediately and lay the law down to them. You know how

to talk to them.

It's

your business.

S: I sure do. I know how to talk to them.

M: That's all.

G: Hell, let's let him alone. STEVE can tend to them.

M: Oh, I know. That's his business.

G:

Really the only thing you men are interested in is a legitimate go?

M: That's right. It's just

a matter of our business is all it 1s.

Well, you've branched out, I understand, a little bit.

M:

What do you mean?

G:

Well, some of these other towns, like New Orleans, maybe. The same type of

organization in other words that he's proposing to us.

M: "ell, they all get along.

G: Yes, that'w what I mean. If it works, it should work.

M: One hand watches the other, and it keeps business in the family. That way

things are done, whether it's in

"ew York, Chicago, or New Urleans.

G: "ell, you see, there may be some difference in the temperament of the people

in Chicago and down here.

M: No.

S:

Something else, here as it is, and I don't like the set-up, the District

Attorney is tied up with the Sheriff and the council, etc., and you cant'

indict anybody in Dallas County for anything.

G: If they've got the money.

S: In other words, there's a fix for any indictment in Dallas, Texas. All you

got to do is have the money.

I don't want to tie myself down as to

where--- In other words, if PAUL keeps himself clean and if his men keep

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themselves clean and don't get into any trouble, everything's all right.

But if they get into trouble, I'll indict them as quick as I will anybody, and

I want them to know that. But, in other words, I want that clear.

M: I told you STEVE that I wouldn't tolerate it myself.

M:

I know we don't in Chicago. We don't have that kind of people around.

P: There's one thing we won't tolerate at all, and that's thieves, murierers, dope

peddlers.

Those things are out.

He don't have nobody around us, nor will

let anybody be around us that are connected with it in any way, shape, or form.

S: I understand. Oh, I understand that.

**********

P: As we are to keep

our slot machines going, because we absolutely have no love

for them

at all.

S:

What do you think about that firm?

M: I don't know anything about it.

S: You don't know anything about it?

M: I just met MR. JONES not so long ago.

G: Well, you've kinda sold us, Paul has, on his know here. In other words, his

knowledge of the town and

political

set-up.

S: He does. He knows everything that's going on.

M: That's what I had heerd.

s: Yeah, he knows.

M: Particularly the last couple of days.

G: He's a pretty good fellow.

Ke know ourselves that, being a law enforcement officer ana a good one, i feel

like I am, I know I am.

He know that the money is going to be going somewhere.

We know there's going

to be dice games, and so I don't feel badly about talking

about it, because I like to play cards, maybe shoot a little dice myself, and,

you know,

at the right time and right place. But we have got - Another thing

you might be able to helo PAuL on.

Naturally, I'm interested in a good offer.

I want to know approximately what it would be worth to me to out this thing

over, because I malked

my feet off and I worked like a dog, ano it's worth an

awful lot to me to take a chance, for it's taking a chance in a sort of way.

In other words, I want to know what it's going to be worth to me.

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M: Hell, you can't say. But I'm sure it'll be worth your thile.

G:

As you can see from STEVE'S house, he needs a little furniture and how much

it's going to take to get it.

All the ready cash he had went into his cam-

paign.

s:

You can get all of the furniture you want, but you can't get that long green.

I spent

everything I had.

I know that it has been more or less of an embarrassment to him to have to

around here.

I, 'he stays around us, he'll be doing well in ten or fifteen years, I'll say.

Everybody's happy. Everybody's got beautiful homes, living comfortably, go

away a month or two at a time.

That's all i could tell you. Like i say, I

won't lie to you or tell you what you can look for or expect; - Because I

woaldn't want to lie to you. I don't like to do business that way.

s:

Nor, look. bet me tell you this.

I want to get this straight with you, PAll.

In other words, the only thing

that you are going to expect from me is pro-

tection, that's all?

P: That's all.

S: But wait, you can go a little further. The only thing you expect from me is

protection on gambling, nothing else. That's all?

P: That's all.

S: jothing else. I want to get that streight.

M: Something I'm against, that's dope pedalers, pickpockets, hired killers.

That's one thing I cant stomach and that's the one thing the fellows up there

won't stand for, things like that. They even go to headquarters and ask them

why they don't do something about it. It they don't, they say a change will

be made and it will be done.

Oh, we're against things like that. It really

don't help the office. It doesn't help you out on the street.

S:

Well, now, I'm going to be offered a big sun of money here in a few days by the

local people, by somebody uno's not "exactly one of the local boys but who can

take up where the local boys left off.

you it's way up in the money.

Now, personally, i don

good organizers or not.

I don't know whether they can organize this thing.

I want somebody that's

businesss.

M: It don't mean it'll last longer. The most money it comes but don't last long.

P: It's like I tola you.

Nor this is what I told him. I said first, he's not.

going to be in want.

Even it we are six nonths getting started, we're not

going to let him be in want.

I mean like furniture and things like that,

STEVE, and your incidentals. These are minor things.

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S: Well, I know.

I told STEVE, I said, we may be so slow that he may wonder when are they going

to get all of these things started?

When is PAUL going to do all of these

things, that he said he was going to do?

We are only going to do them as fast

as we can and not jeopardize you and ourselves, and if we can make a million

dollers a month in a business-like manner, we are going to make it.

If we can

only make a hundred dollars a month, if that's the way it is, then it's a

hundred, and that's all it is.

But your're not going to be jeopardized nor

are we going to jeopardize ourselves because we're not money hungry. Now, if

1 come in here like I told you and suppose i get you a flat proposition that

strength isn't here. Suppose I!m having a lot of trouble getting these things

because you've got to do this in a business-like menner.

I've got $50,000

I've got to get.

Nor, I'm going to get it if I have to sacrifice you to get

it. I've elready given you $50, 000.

S: You're right.

P: And when you lay down at night, that pillow is going to feel like it's got bricks

in it because you're not going

to be able to sleep.

You've got that pressure

on you. Because I'm going to be at that front door.

Sure, Once you get organized, you don't have to worry about money. iverything

roll in a nice quiet manner, in a business-like way.

You don't, he don't

nave to worry about it personally. Everybody will be happy, I'm sure.

Do you think that there's any way that they can find out that there's a tie-up

between here and up there in Chicago?

P: No.

M: So far as we're concerned, we don't want it. Naturally: we don't want it, I'm

sure.

K: There'll be nobody know.

Mi: We're not going to come from Chicaga down here.

s: In other words, they'll all be local boys?

M: All local fellows.

He're leaving that to him. He's representing us.

S: All right, now. I've talked to PlUL.

M: "1l we're doing is trying to keep then, like he calls, the muscle men, those

petty - These people can be called in, you know.

S: You've heard of the Texas Rangers?

M: Yes

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S:

Well, look. PAUL thinks or says that he can take care of them. I've got to

be sure of

that because if they think that I'm crooked.

They think if I'm

taking any money they can go to the Attorney üeneral and have me impeached.

P:

STEVE,

as I told you before, i don't even want you to admit to yourself, let

alone anybody else. I don'

t want you to even admit to yourself that you're

taking any money.

M: Then, the langers didn't do nothing about it?

to, but what i'm trying to get at, can Paul taice care of the langers? That's

M: He tola me that. Put without all of these promises and assurances that he would

take care of these boys, I wouldn't even think about comine here.

thig is as, and it should be, that you wouldn't worry about a thing. Now, whan

I come down here, I can't go back and tell my group all of these thugs go back

and lie to 'em, and say he's all right, he's going to take care of everything.

back, so i know what I'm talking about.

jon, that's just it.

Another thing, the ner Dol. that's going in, PAT. He's

a young boy, GI, conscientious, got money, a lot, above the average, well

above the average.

He don't cere about being District Attorney,

de wante to

be Governor. Now he's going to try to make a name for himself, you can see

What do you think about the possibilities? PAUL says he can get him.

what do you think about the possibilities of getting to a man like that?

Do you think it can be done?

M: Oh, certainly. Yes.

G: he'll have to play ball with someone.

#: Do you know him?

P: Thy,

sure. He knows him. People you know, you dan't come out in the cold.

K: As a matter of fact, FAT only supports me.

S: I know that, but I was just asking.

M: All of these people have to be talked to. It don't matter who they are, they

have to be approached by certain people.

There are certain ways of doing it.

S:

We'll see, I've never been in politics before.

so i'm as ignorant as that

piece of cactus out there about politics, and Ilva got to know a little bit

about them. In other vords, I don't want to get my head out off, and you don't.

P:. It's like I tola you.

ion don't want me - Maybe I spent last nignt with the

District Attorney.

Iou don

't want me to go to the District attorney and say

I got the Sheriff fixed.

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S: i0.

Po: So don't ask meif I got the District Attorney fixed.

s: Oh, I'm not trying to ask that.

But, see, I'm always afraid of GONZAULLAS.

Long "olf GONZAULLAS. Tou've beard of him.

P:

STEVE, listen, if I didn't' have - let me tell you something.. If I didn't have

the District Attorney, it's common sense I wouldn't want you. What good would

the Sheriff be? He wouldn't be here, because what good are you if you haven't

got the others happy.

S: I say that I'm just ignorant.

H: That's the way it is up in Chicago.

iverybody's happy. If the District

Attorney indicts you, you never even contact certain people. You never even

see him.

if you see them out on the street, you wouldn't even know them.

I wouldn't make an attempt even to come down here if I didn't think for a min-

ute that he knew what he was doing.

G:

well, you know PAUl has been here for sometime.. He's been active and

quietly getting around.. But l've made some checks about PAUL here a while back

myself.. I think he's told you about it, and I know that he hasn't done. any-

thing outside, you know, that we could pin on him. You know there's some good

people here.

M: You're not through checking him yet?

G: Well; we can't afford to. JACK'S recommended him very highly, and that's good

enough for me.

S: Oh, JACK'S a good boy, I can tell that.

,But snother thing, too, this grou

that I just beat.. They hate me. I don't know why. Decause they were beat, I

guess. I slipped.upon.'em, end I chiselle@ them and everythings and they hate

me and they'reigoing to be after me. I know they are. They're gonna be bit

Ing, so I'n going to have to be doubly careful.

everthe and to te

G:

That STEVE was telling you about that bunch hating him, and that they were gonna

set every kind of trap.

M:

They know he is the boss and they all have to respect him.. He don't have to

worry about that. You shouldn't worry about none of them.. All of those you

worry about, I'll guarantee you they've got sleepless nights already just wor-

rying about what you're going to do already.

P: Just like GARRETT calling you and telling you what a Buddy he was of yours.

I'll guarantee you they'll all be your buddies.

M: They'll all be on your side and fight to be on your side. They'll give you

deals and offer you things. They'll all come to you.

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G: People have been here from all over the country. lord got around, you know,

that STEVE don't like this local crowd and is gonna run them out.

G: Low much money is spent for dice in your corporation?

M:

I don't know what the set-up is. I haven't talked to Paul. I don't know what

he had in mind.

We up there, we don't believe in it.. One thing ' 'I against,

always was against. I don't Ilke, like 1 was telling you last night, five or

six joints in the radius of six blocks, a joint every block.. That's one thing

• have always talked against.: I like one: big spot and that's all.. Out in th

ountry, out of the city entirely. In the city maybe you have a dice game 1

one block and two blocks maybe you have another dice game in one block and two

blocks maybe you have another dice game, horse betting, what you call the book

parlors, or whatever you call them.

S:

• S:

S:

The way it has looked here,

the Sheriff who is the present Sheriff, SMOOT SCHMID,

made an agreenent with the city and with the City Council: and the menager 1f

he rould stey out of the city, they would stay out of the county. So the

Sherifi never comes in the city and the city never goes in the county. But

he is paid, the sherlff is paid out of the city, that he will have no dice

games in the county.

Now, how about that?

well, that's under the present set-up.

leah, now, what do you think? Do you think somebody's gonna start hollering

when we think we'll put some places in the county?

P: Vie're only gonna put one place in.

S: Fell, I know.

M: All we need is one spot.. That's allo: I'm in favor of one big spot and that's

all.

S: sorta like the Top of the Hill. Have you ever heard of the Top of the Hill.

M: No, i'm not acquainted with this country at all.

•¿ Oh, I guess there's a $10,000 or $20,000 Iimit. ROGER LAUY and all of these. big

people go out there. It's the biggest game.

ia: 1n the county?

P: No, out of the county. It's 20 feet out of the county, but all dallas goes

there because there's no place.

There's no such thing as a big joint place in town at ell. There was one place

In Cook and Lee County and you could throw a stone over there. : The place is

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there and they all wind up with the City of Chicago.: The Loop, all Chicago

and all surrounding suburbs wind up right in this Lee County. There's just

one place and there they all wind up every night.: The lty's closed, 'it's

quiet, and there's nothing going there.

S:

They're all in the city.: All the hotels have got dice games in them. Maybe

there's about six or eight hotels running every day.

M: You got no jurisdiction in the city, do you?

S:. Oh, yeah; I'm over the entire county. I'm over the city and the county.

Go you put the heat on those.

S: All I've got to do is tell them to run off, if 1 want to, in the city or the

county. But the way the thing has been run, there's no dice games in the

county, they're all in the city. But your idea is to get in the county to

get the city.

P: You take the Chicken Bar out here. If that was the only big dice game.

S: Where?

P: The Uhicken Bar.

s: Oh, man, that

would be a set-up.

P: Take that Chicken Bar there and put you a dice game in there.

S: Oh, man!

M: We don't want his pitty patter. He don't want nobody in there unless they can

afford to lose, unless they can afford to gamble.

s; However, Pally that's a little close in, that place there, don!t you think?

P: It's in the county.

S: Yeah, I know it 1s.

P: And it's on an intersection.

G: It's gonna be a good set up.

the city boys, the Dallas Syndicate nuscled a Fort Worth man out somehow.

BROWNING, a fellow by the name of BROWNING who is way up in the money..

P:

EARL DALTON got a piece of that game. That's the one I mas telling you about.

S:. They had it just in Tarrant County, which is fort forth, just across the road,

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P:

just 30 or 40 feet from the Dallas lounty line, and the Dallas boys muscled in

somehow.: I don't know how they did it in his county and pushed him out, and

now the Dallas boys have the biggest percentage of the take of that game.

"ell, the

reason for that, FRED has gone broke and many times out there.

FRED, every night after they close, he brings all of the money in and bets 1t

on the horses the next day.

S° Oh, I see.

P: He's probably the biggest individual horse better in the country. It!s one of

the first games I ever heard of that they'll take his check.. There's been times

out there when he couldn't pay off in cash, but they take his check because he

was capable of raising it in the next morning and he's paid off a lot of times

out there with a check.

S: But it's a big, big game.

P: And he had to take this man in for money.

S: DALTON? well, I wanted to try. to explain that you so you would know that the

county has never had any dice games.

They've had some sneak games.

M: You see, I try to be frank and honest with you. •I came here; I want to listen

to you. I really want to be honest and frank.. That's what you want, Isn't it?

S: Sure.

#: I don't run any of those places up there, gembling or anything Ilke that.

got my own territory. I got certain business: that I take care of for the last

16 or 17 years. I do very well, living comfortably worry about nothing: As

far as the set-up; these places like dice rooms or horse rooms and things like

that, that's like another department I would call it. I have a fellow sitting

here with me that runs a certain gane.: He could just give it to you in a min-

ute.

He could tell you what to expect and all that sort of stuff, you see.

But I have my own concession, and that's the end.

li: I see.

M: That's why I'n Ilstening. They send me here and say, "Well go on and see what

they have and come back'.

and might be if youre happy with the thing and all,

I come back and talk turkey, tell you what to expect, that the dice mill be

best for you and what should be done in that deal.

S: That's righto: He's got to because I don't know.

G: PAUL knows more about. the set-up than we do.

M: Of course, I know the things they're doing up north and all of that. Instead

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of having ten or twelve like they used to have years ago, every other block.

It was like a fine dress show, and none of them do any good, just a lot of.

noise, a lot of racket and that's all. So they eliminated all of that.. The

City of Chicago has been so clean the last ten or twelve: jears you couldn't

buy a book in Chicago..

You have. got to go to New York also.. You can't walk

the street with a scratch in your pocket. If your cops would see the scratch

sheet in your pocket, they could put you in jail.

S: That do they file on them for?

M: Pardon? .

S: That do they charge lem with.

i ambling. Disorderly conduct.

s: Oh, 1s that right?

# Disorderly conduct, not gambling. They see four or five fellows on the corner

of a news-stand in New York, they'll put them all in jail, all four of them.

s: I dian't know that.

Ms Oh, sure. Laluardia cleaned that up pretty good.

i? The fellow was pretty good.

Mi: Sure.: Lot of the fellows had one big spot out of the city. They had a Riviera

there and they would make seven million or ten million a yeary only on one spot,

and the city's nice and clean.

-G: Yeah.

S: They booked it all there too?

Yes, all.. One spot. That's what you should have here to keep the town nice and

clean.

$: Grand Prairie, Grand Prairie, GEORGE.

" Grand Prairie, rouldn't that be a spot

for them.

G: Leah.

M: You get out in the outskirts.. You get yourself a nice spot, and that's what you

want, one spot.. You got nothing to contend with.: You got that one spot. lou

got 1t going good, you got a place going.

S: You got a club.

i: Oh, yeah, The place I had reference to. They have about thirty slots around

there.

They have seven dice tables and a huge room for booking. It used to be

a country club, golf course, you know. They bought that out. It's a huge

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S:

building. Now they have their own dining room, have three cooks up there.

That's the only place.: So far as Chicago is concerned, that's out. There's

nothing going in Chicago. The only thing we have in Chicago, there is what e

call a Commission office. We have a room maybe about three times this size.

They go in there and bet on the baseball. They have a ticker and the basket

ball anâ football. That's a big thing all over in Chicago.

Hell, it's trying to get big here, but nobody knows how to run it.. They got

football cards and a few things.

We have some very good, men on that in Chicago.: They're the tops in that field.

ss. "hat do you think about the policy here?. Or do you know anything: about 1t?

M:: Well, that's my business. Policy.

S: Is it? Well, now, they've got about eight wheels here.

M:: Policy is my business. I've been doing that for 17 years.

s: It's awful big here.

G: There are some of the wheels here that are running two dranings a day.

i: I told you that last night.

but two a day. A.l. and P.M.

S:. That's right; 7.00. in the morning and 7.00 at night.

He said four or five, and:I said they can't run

M: Not 7.00 in the morning?

S: Yes, they do.

I: hell, it might pay.

i: Well, in Chicago they run at 2.00 o'clock in the afternoon.. They have their

first drawing, then they go out and give the people the results. Then they come

back at 8.30 and have the second drawing.

S:. I think they play a day behind here all the time.

G: They run $3,000 or 74,000 a day.

N: ihat?

G: Policy.

#: That's all? You mean all the wheels?

G: Uh, yeah. : One man. dust one man makes $3,000 or $4,000 a day on that.

it You mean they handle -

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sandward eradditio?

1-45

G. Oh no, that's just the percentage this one man gets.

He gets about 45 or 50

per cent.

S:: This man we're talking about draws around a million in a year, that one we're

talking about.

M: In eight wheels?

S: Ten.

M: Ten wheels.

li: Close to $60, 000 a year.

M: $60, 000.

G:... Maybe more.

S: White people don't play the policy.

M:

live t00.

S: It's always two bits here, mostly.

Mi: Two bits?

S: You play two bits.

G: You can play a nickel.

S:

Can you play a nickel?

G: Yeah, a nickel or a dime.

N: How big are the tickets?

G: well, it's a regular policy ticket about that long and about that wlde.:

M: How many numbers on it?

S: Three rows.

G; There's two rows on one end and three -

i: From what number to what? One to seventy-eight or ninety.

S: I don't have any idea about the numbers... Here's the only thing.

ile don't know

a whole lot because they won't let us close enough.

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M:

I'd like to see a drawing. They use operators?

S: Ies, they do.

P: You mean you would like to see a sheet?

M: Yeah, I'd like to see the results.

P: I'll get you one.

S; You cen get all you want down on Hall Street.

M: Do you have stations here?

S: Ies.

I: They have writers who go around the whole neighborhood.

S:

When I was a patrolman, I saw a bunch of policy writers with tickets sticking

out of their pockets, picked them all up, picked about eight of them up.: Charged

then with - What did I charge them with? 'Ganing? Oh, I don't remember what

the charge was.. I think it was gaming and vag. I vagged them; and they kept

outting it off and putting it off, and you know how hard 'it is to remember nig-

jers, the next time they came in I didn't remember a one of them. But come to

find out, not only dion't I remember then, but they had changed niggers: and

social security cards. But it's a big thing. This policy. Very big.

G: Don't they have big front boys in Chicago?

M: There're never any front boys. Never were.

(There followed further general discussion of the policy game in Chicago sim-

1lar to above.)

That's one thing, since I have been with the Department, there's never been

anything done about policy.

Se.. It's never been closed.

There's never been a policy wheel raided and they

have the drawings right out in the open.

M: "on't you think something should be done about that?

i: Yes, I do. I really do. I sure do.

Find out where the ten wheels are and

take all of their equipment, and they're in bad shape. Printing press and

everything.

P: Close her down.

it Naturally, when you take the machines, just hide them.

S: They have different color slips. link, yellow, green, white. They have

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different names for

each nunber. I don't know a whole lot about it other than

just what I've seen. because in the Department. they keep pretty. cool on those

things.

P: Iou see,

here the D.A. could keep one or two, then you would have something.

S:

"ell, now the reason there's so many. They're a greedy bunch of people. Some

body will get something on somebody else.

Well, we'll give them a wheel and

let him hush up. Do this FRIEDMAN killing here about ten years ago.: BENNIE

VICKERS killed Mr. FRIEDMAN. Do, in order. to keep Mrs. FRIEDMAN happy, they-.

give her a wheel, and now I think she's got two of three wheels.

¿ do far as I know, BENNIE has them all but one.

S: Is that right. I didn't know that.

G:

He has a couple of wheels in fort north, maybe more..

You see, the niggers down

here go for that policy in a big way.

S:.

That

and dice.

That's another thing. There're about fifty nigger dice games

here and some of them are big. They're not controlled by anybody, Anybody.

P:

fell, I tell you what we can do with those niggers. I can - They cleaned

out nigger town one time. You remember, I told you.

S: You mean: North Dallas?

P: I gt a nigger doctor over there. I've known him for years. He had three things

that he wanted to do. He's a very wealthy nigger, and there!s a lot of wealtby

niggers here, but it's a restricted town. --There's no place they can go. : There's

nothing they can do, the stores don't allow them 1n. Neimen Marcus don't let

then in, t don't care who they are.. He wanted me to open a nigger night club.

In fact

he took me over there and met the owner of Roseland. He wanted a swanky

nigger club.: He brought ETHEL HORN. She was going to open.

(further discussion by JONES followed regarding arrangements made for the negro

Central and Hall)

G:

lice force.)

The negro business here, it's a pretty big racket. They're a club out here now

called Cocoanut in the county.

51 :

#s I understand it from the conversation we had this morning, you and the boys

are going to look it over and then bring this other man back

here.

What I want to know is can we take your word?

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S:

We're negotiating. Now, do you think it would be a good idea for me to do busi-

ness with PAUL or anyone else, or do you think it would be better to do busi-

ness with my lawyer.

Is I think It would be best for you. Who 1s your lawyer?

S:

"ell, I'd rather not say. Unless we're going to do business. I'd rather not

mention his name.

i: "ell, that's your business.. If you'd do business with PAul or personally.

s: Hell, I'll think it over. He's a good boy.

i: "ell, he must be.

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ong

notes suade

further, DRO

<1946

10-9-46

-=+-

Pat.

Contacted Paul Jones.

He is leaving Dallas at 12.55 tonight for Chicago.

He said his life

had been threatened several times lately. There is some friction be-

tween the Lipky and the wineberg factions. The Fed. Gov't has put a stop

to his activities in Mexico, temporarily, at least until Aleman gets in.

The syndicate he is connected with operates from coast to coast and in

Canaada and Spain.

He is göing. to be sent to Spain in the near iuture.

From Chicago he will go to N.Y. get his wife and return to Dallas in ab

out a week or 10 days.

His outfit always keeps up with his local doings.

He only goes places where his outfit will know who he goes with. He could

go into any fairly large city in the U.S. and his syndicate would have

some connection there.

In case he ran into any local trouble he would call

his office long distance and they would send him the money he needed, or

all the men he needed, or he could get help from Naxey Gordon whose phone

number he had in his pocket.

While he was in Mex. City someone broke into his apt. and stole his

snub-nose 38 pistol & he wanted to know if he would find out if it was an

officer or a thief who took it.

That Labriola was a stepson of Mangane, a big time Chicago criminal.

Labriola was ne of the men at large wno was called in to settle differ-

ences for the syndicate.

That Lipsky was one of the greatest connen in the country.

That his outfit was buying lots of sugar for $20 and $21 dollars a

100# and re-selling it for $27.00 per 100#•

That generally when they went into a town they operate through a fix,

who was powerful enough to run things.

In return his outfit did every-

thing they could to keep the heat off the town.

That Wichita Falls would

be an unusual opportunity for them to make lots of money.

That in Dallas he was authorized to offer the new D.A. & Sheriff

1000.00 per week each plus 123% each for complete protection.

That the Jones boys, colored policy operators in

#200,000. for the snatch there end thet toes ate not coil cOmeSiON

MAR 29 1951

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trainered. on

sion

That his outfit was making every effort to take over the wire service

whose headquarters are in Chicago and whose take is approximately $1,000,000.00

per week over the country.

That should his syndicate get a fix in the county and in the new City

Government, that they are sure will move

in in May, his outfit will see to

it personally that much local crime is eliminated by persuasion.

Most of the

black market handled by his outfit got to Spain via Vera Cruz Mexico and are

packed for shipment in Mahogany crates.

That the Dallas people who operate for his syndicate are well known.

one of the operations are ever operated anywhere by people brought in from

the outside, but by local people who front for them.

"is outfit has a large number of slot machines they can and will move

into this areawhen they get the go ahead signal.

Wineberg put a lot of heat on Lipsky by his crude methods.

Wineberg

and Lipsky are on the outs.

Paul jones seemed to go out of his way to emphasize the idea his people

did not want to stir up any trouble among local gamblers, but he had been

approached by some of them to bring in a non-limit crap game for the Fair.

10-29-46 - 10.30 P.M.

Paul Jones called my house

and after

some casual conversation asked if

i had seen Steve G. lately.

I told him I had played golf with Steve the day

before and would play golf with him again tomorrow.

That i had been on my

vacation for the past 2 days and had not been around the house much. He

said he would consider it a favor if I could make some arrangements for him

to talk to Steve.

Paul will call again tomorrow night at 6.15 P.M. Cali-

ed the office to report conversation but It. Daniel & Capt. Fritz were both

gone.

10-30

Re: Paul Jones

After the golf game today I asked Steve if he had ever heard of faul

Jones. He laughed and said "Are you kidding?"

"Wonder why someone hasn't

all ready killed him?" Then i explained the police dept. was very much

interested in Paul's local connections and activities and that Paul want-

ed to talk to him and we would appreciate it if he would help us out as it

may add to our information about Paul's methods of operating. Steve

agreed to do this and mentioned Col. Garrison at Austin - who Steve had met

while attending school.

That he would like for his own protection to make

recordings of what was said for future reference.

Steve said to tell Paul

to come over tomorrow night at 8 P.W. if he called.

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Called the office to report this and find out how and if to proceed.

It. Daniels off.

Capt. Fritz working on the liquor store killings and

not able to contact him.

Thoned Chief Hansson and toid him the setup, explaining that setup

and my inability to

tind capt. Fritz or van - that I wasn't going over

their head but thought some one ought to know what the deal

what hours I was working and I told him I vas on vacation.

Said to go on

with the deal - that when my vacation was over I rould be transferred with

Cannaway into the vice squad.

11-23

Paul Jones returned to Chicago this A.M. "e got into Dallas some time

Monday

rith his wife.

It was unexpected for him - the quick return to

Chicago.

Some local jew already has the bond racket sewed up in Dallas under the

new administration.

Thought to be Bill

a totters who is reported to have

sold his parn shop to set enough money to operate on. Sam Passman is said

to have engineered this

"monopoly" for a nice consideration.

The jews are

attempting to tie Dallas up politically, and this gravy train is one of

their first.

Jack Darhy and Bill Holcomb had a drunken brawl. Two of Jack's friends

grabbed Bill and held his arms.

Jack then slipped behind Holconb and hit

him in the head several times.

They split up and Bill Holcomb is now work-

ing for Herbert Noble. Said Fill was going to work for an insurance com-

pany and would receive an unusual good income.

Paul Jones is back in town.

10-25

Contacted Paul Jones who said -

De was questioned becore he left Chicago about the Kelly killing.

Too tire ope the le ome ei e to the nake

He, Kelly, would go into

the owner of the joint

Chicego.

on tore me the kid t befrest a bot or the hearth in

He would then

Jones has been celebrating his wedding anniversary today. de is tak-

ing his wife on a shopping trip this f.M.

KILLED

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He pulled out a roll of $100.00 bills and told me that he wanted me

to have a good time on him - that 1 wasn't always putting him in jail.

re also wanted me to contact some of the big boys for him and see if 1

could arrange a fix.

He said his syndicate would be willing to put in slot

machines for any one who could make a fix.

After all expenses were paid out

his outfit and the siad fix would divide 50 - 50.

Said he was sure some

one would take him up as he could furnish the latest equipment, which in-

cluded some of the electric slot machines.

I.. Bankston has two airplanes now. He has a howard 5 passenger

i noplane paintea

ea Creme" with a black stripe. This plane has some of the

best equipment. it is storea in the Dallas Aero Service Hanger #5A.

re also has a twin engine Beachcraft, all metal, silver colored with a

lightning stripe down the side.

This ship is also a well equipped job.

It carries about 7 or 9 passengers. It took off today with some -

Again contacted Faul Jones who said -

Starting the first of the year his people were really coming into their

The nationwide wire service formerly operated by Ragen would be oper-

ated by his syndicate under the name of Mid-lest Wire Service. By having

control of this service they would have a good lever with with to pry fur-

ther into other profitable sources of income. That they were going to ex-

pand their liquor interests in Dallas.

That Steve could really do himself

a lot of good when he goes in by operating through their set up. That af-

ter Steve had held office one term and wanted to run again his outfit would

buy off all competition and pay all his campaign expenses out of their end

of the profit.

Also that come election time, Steve would get letters from

his good (?) friends Bob Hannegan and President Truman, congratulating him

on his wonderful record and expressing the hope the good people of Dallas

would. see fit to re-elect him.

Under the new systen which his syndicate operates, the Sheriff or the

I. A. (whichever one they make their ded with) enters into a 50-50 partner-

ship with each other.

Steve could pick out any friend of his that he liked

and trusted.

The Chicago outfit would set this friend up in the coin mach-

ine business, furnishing him with all the capital and equipment necessary.

'his friend would operate the business on a purely business basis, keeping

track of every cent coming in and going out.

The syndicate would furnish

this lucky operator with a machine mechanic and a good well coached accoun-

tant to handle the books for Uncle Sam's sake. Utherwise deve's man rould

be on his own. In addition, should any slot machine thief, or rival op-

erator, steal a machine or cause any trouble to the new operation, they

would be broke of the habit (in due and ancient form).

On the big crap game they would like to open, the same kind of deal

would be made.

Their syndicate would furnish expert operators working

under the supervision of local people. After all expenditures and pay

offs to other grafters, his outfit and Steve vill divide the net profits.

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Also, Steve would get 50-50 on wire service, footbell and baseball service,

political races and all like income.

This super-dooper crap game will play for the big boys. It will be a

non-limit game and will be fair and square. Of course, he says his outfit

will furnish dice experts to keep some dice sharp from cheating them. There

will be no set up to contend with Ilke the recently publicized Freddi

Merell e the o ake annahen mess winere it was a frame up and they met later

In order to keep the rest of the court house grafters pacifled each would

be paid a weekly fee,

all of which to come out of the gross profits.

re estimated that Steve could make a150, 000. per year, meybe more.

When

asked him who, in his opinion, mas locally qualified enough to

handle a big set up like this he suggested - front men for the rackets Chick

Lancaster, Olin Lancaster for the unlimited crape game. Clint urchison,

Todd Lee

Wynne.

The above two multi-millionaires and capable or bringing

big money into

the gambling tables.

These men are well known, not only

locally, but nationally to the sporting and gambling world.

Jones has a great deal of contempt for what he called "chicken feed"

that the local grafters were getting.

This hesitation on the part of local

rackets and vice to fatten up the nut when times were good is the reason

his syndicate is having such an easy time in most cities they are organi-

zing.

He said the pay outs for a city the size of Dallas should be 10 times

what they are.

When I asked Jones how strong his outfit was tied in with

the Federal Government, he said they were fixed and mentioned Truman and

Hannegan.

His people, he said, had no fear of government intervention.

He said StoLouis, Kansas City, New Orleans, Ilttle Rock, to name a

few, were well oiled and everybody was making money. Lipsky was recalled

to Chicago and pulled down off his high horse. His group made a mistake

man do all the active work.

He said I.K. was doing some ground work for them but would not make

any proposition to anyone until he gave the word.

He also admitted that his syndicate was willing and ready to finen-

cially back any strong local group in the city elections, where a pre-

arranged deal justified the confidence end expense.

He also stressed the strong (to him) point that in cities controlled

by his crowd, major crimes had deceased. The boys had an effective police

force of their own.

-5-

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Then asked if he felt any fear of the local set up he replied that he had

gone to their lawyer, alter he had received some threats, and passed the

should any of his group be harmed they would demand a return

That is, ten local dead to one of his syndicate. There were sev-

eral of

his boys in town that were active and ready to go. They kept track

each other and if one was out of pocket the others "knew where to start

This brings back the incident of the first arrest of the Chicago

group by local people.

Al Bo was talking to bill D. when the 'phone rang. It was ivy Millet.

miller wanted to know who and what the addresses were of the hicago boys..

Bill turned to Al and asked him what to do. Al sala "Tell him" so Bill

did.

Twenty minutes later Fritz, Gaday and Smart arrested them. Some

connections.

The local nut, both lity & county, is thought to be about $17,000.00

per month.

Jones is fairly well informed on the local set up. He lound aut what

Dean's percentage was and it was very low. He said the police captains

in other towns did lots better.

re could almost tell a man how many white faced cattle and Palamino

horses a certain local thug had on his ranches, where the ranches were,

how

many employees, the pay roll, etc.

de said I would be very muchly surprised if I were thoroughly in

the know about my own department. A petty larceny bunch of "begsars", he

called them.

The man McWillie killed McBride, was killed by accident. The man

he should have killed that might has been taken care of as has one more

man. They have simply disappeared.

Names will be furnished later. Archer

and Fletcher will soon join them.

Noble is still the hottest thing around

Dallas.

Paul Jones met Steve Guthrie "and Butler at Steve's house at about &

P.M., and stayed until about 1.30 P.M. All conversation was recorded by

Dub. Naylor of the Dept. of Public Safety (Ranger)

Fresent at the meeting were Paul Jones, Steve Guthrie and Geo. Butler.

Naylor and his helper recorded all meeting from back bedroom.

Jones car-

ried home by Butler and expressed himself as pleased with Guthrie's possi-

bilities, telling me I would be well taken care of for my troubles.

11-3-46

Paul Jones called me at Steve's house tonight, long distance, operator

6440, Chicago, and said he will be in Dallas Tuesday with his top people.

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Rants me to reserve Governor's Suite at the Adolphus Motel for a few days.

That there would be 3 from Chicago and 2 from Las Vegas. Made reserva-

tions through Jack Lestey at the Adolphus Hotel.

Said he has guns order-

ed but they are hard to get.

Wants big room where they can hold a con-

ference and n ot be going in and out all the time. "all was recorded.

Paul B. Jones and Jack Knapp arrived today from Uhicago via Kansas

City aboard Braniff Airliner.

Ship was about 2 or 3 hours late, due to

bad weather. (9.30 A.M.) They are now registered in room 831 Adolphus

"otel. Paul Jones was contacted by Butler shortly after his arrival at the

Rex Liquor Store, C1419 Commerce and Akard. This was approximately 11.45

A.M. After eating, getting a hair cut and changing clothes they contacted

Butler at his home, 4251 Cedar springs. They arrived at Butler's house

about 2.45 P.M. at which time Paul Jones introduced his man as Jack Knapp.

Room 831 Adolphus.

Various phases of the local set up were discussed and the following

plans were made.

Jones would probably have his other men here by 3 P.i, tomorrow

(11-6-46) and he would be most happy to be at steve's house by that time.

He would also like to have Steve's chief deputy on hand at the meeting so

they would thoroughly understand each other from the start. Present

would be their big lawyer from Chicago who is supposed to be the best in

the whole country.

At this meeting further plans would be made to set things in action

to move in gradually.

Jones talked about buying the Chicken Pat at It. North cut off and

Industriel Blud. for $185,:000.00 The money to come from his people and

the place to be converted into a gambling club and night spot. ne said

other locations were discussed but this was the perfect location.

In regard to the new club at Lobello's, Jones had the following to

say.

It was not operated by his people. It was a

"key" club with a very

select, limited membership of 300 keys.

It was being changed over to a

very high class "joint".

sowever, there was nothing to worry about. His

people would cut off his wiskey, beer, gaming equipment, have the place

raided and before you knew it, Mr. Lobello would have to close. His se-

Jection of some of the most prominent people was primarily for political

protection.

Jack Knapp did not have much to say. He dia comment that things would

be so gradually opened

and all by local people that no one could trace or

put any heat on the D.A. or Sheriff's office. That no violence would re-

sult from their nethod

of operation, no one would be killed, sna every

one would make lots of money.

Anapp said his home was in Fort Smith, Ark. and that he had operated

a lot in Little Rock.

He saia he and l'aul registered as being from Buffalo,

N.Y.

Anapp talked more like a southerner. te said he had been in the army

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during the war, going over seas with

an armored outfit, but failed to name

his organization.

Knapp is apparently smooth, well educated and obser-

vant.

My personal impression

was that he was

& Federal man working under

cover.

He seems to be about 27 years old, 5'8 or 9"

, ruddy complexion, gray

eyes, full face, brown hair, about 160" very well dressed but not flashy.

He was all

and ears and let Jones do most of the talking, varifying

what jones said by a shake of his head.

Jones

also sala he would have plenty of help in getting things rolling.

ation in the hands of an equally experienced man who has been here for

some time.

(Harry Hornstein).

se said his people had some of the largest beer distribution in Dallas

and the same applied to whiskey. They could use these things to get things

done without any actual force.

Jones said he knew the local syndicate was very muchly interested in

him and his activities and that was one reason he registered as being from

Buffalo. Apparently this was his idea.

He hinted that the local people

would be surprised to know just how much their supposedly hiaden activities

were known.

Both men thought it was

a swell idea to meet at Steve's house. It would

do no one any good for any of them to be seen together.

In the morning,

they are going to rent a car to use. This is better and less noticeable

a texi, so they said.

Jones indicated that 3 more men were due in Dallas tonight or tom-

it the same time he said it was important that all be present.

de said he was sure that I, Butler, would be handsomely taken care of.

Due to the heavy rain and their inability to get a cab took them to

their hotel. 'e went by way of Industrial Blvd. and Commerce where Jones

showed the hicken Bar to Knapp

and pointed out the advantages of the 1o-

Anapp said it looked O.K, to him.

1 let them out of my car ir

front of the Marques at 1404 Main about 4-30 P.M.

In regard to the guns Jones said that they sent out a man in Chicago

to get one.

He had never heard anything about this type of pistol before.

When he came back, empty handed, he told all the boys he was going to get

one of the dann things for himself. After the explanation was made, by

their "messenger" Jones said he wanted one personally, too.

Just before they left Chicago they heard where one could be obtained.

Is it is still there it will be brought in by his man in the morning.

Jones gave me at

$20.00 bill, Serial #J27964065. They are going to be

at Steve's house

at 3 P.M. tomorrot.

NW 50529 DocId: 32241873 Page 58

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11-6

Paul R. Jones and Jack Knapp met Guthrie and Butler at Steve's house,

6263 Malcolm, about 3.10 fi. All conversation and negotiations were

recorded.

About 6 F.M. hoth men remembered they had to meet he big man

Chicago at the airport.

nable to get a cab, Butler carried them to

Love field in Steve's old coupe.

water Jones called and made a date to

them at Steve's house at 8.30 A.ii. - 11-7-46.

11-7-46.

Paul Jones,

Jack Knapp and a man introduced to us as fat Manning..,

arrived at steve's house in a yellow cab #46, at about 8.40 A.

Camera set up by T.H.P. man named Iiscale

Cap't waylor of State

Rangers recorded conversation which took place

in Steve's study at home

Present at these negotiations were Steve Guthrie, Pat Manning, Paul

Jones, Jack Knapp and George Butler.

Various problems in connection with fixing the various people in-

volved were discussed. It was indicated that already in the bag were:

Al fempleton, Gonzales, hill filson and that the city would be an easy

change over, come the April elections.

Manning commented that he had been doing business for thepast 15

years and, as yet, had not run into any serious trouble.

That he was here

to bankroll the local operation..

That he had a section of Chicago and

everyone there was making money and happy.

That other operations over the

country were run in the same set up and no one was any wiser.

That he was

very muchly interested in the numbers or policy wheels, and the crap games.

He wanted it understood, though, that the deal covered all forms of busi-

ness and named slot machines, horse joints, policy, punch boards, crap

games, wire service, football selections and other forms of legitimate take.

He was not interested in dope, whores, thieves, or any grand jury or D.A.

fix or any form of crime other than gambling.

His people would cooperate

with the Sheriff in every way to discourage the more violent and serious

crimes.

That they were going to send down a man right away to make a sur-

vey of

every local set up, and this would be in such a way that no one would

become wise.

the Snowden Dist. Co. 1311 Ross Avenue, one of their connections. Un the

ride down Manning made the comment that he was leaving town this Pail. but

Knapp said something to him about staying over and his leaving is now un-

certain. Butler commented that he was on his vacation and wanted to take

his wife on a nice little trip. Knapp said no, you stay here and help

us with Steve and yu won't be sorry.

So, Butler agreed to stay. most of

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the time spent at Steve's was spent by the boys in selling the Sheriff a

sweet smelling set of goods.

Pat Manning in Roon 104L, Adolphus Hotel.

Manning caught the 4.45 F.M. Braniff Plane out of Dallas, bound for

Chicago. Jack Knapp is still in town.

Both inapp and Paul Jones are going to Chicago in the next few

days.

Paul Jones called tonight about 6.30 P.ii, with above info.

Jones said that everything went off U.K. but he wants to get together

• with me and let our hair down.

That he wanted us to confide in each other.

He wanted me to meet the big boys, both locally and the ones who would

come in, on a social basis. Jones asked if I thought Steve had given the

go ahead in good faith.

Today, at the meeting at Guthries, Manning accidentally pulled out of

his pocket

a roll of large bills, $1, 000.00. The roll was bent in the mid-

dle and folded over. It was about as thick as a package of cigarettes.

When he sawn me looking at it he hurriedly stuck it back in his pocket.

"ater, when we got into my car, I saw Manning hand Paul Jones some-

thing i was sure was the roll of bills. Jones ment bäck into the house and

came out shortly with Steve.

After a short conversation on the porch,

Jones got in the car and we left.

I called Steve later and asked him if Jones hadn't offered him some

money. He said "Yes, it was a roll of large bills, which he estimated as

being around $15,000.00..

My own estimate would be approximately $25 -

$50,000.00 if all were $1,000.00 notes.

Steve said he rejected the money

and to tell Jones when I saw him that he thought it was a poor may to give

a man a "hand-out".

Juôge Al Templeton and his wife Allie, were the guests of Paul Jones in

their recent trip to Mexico City, according to Paul.

Shortly aiter Manning, Knapp and Paul Jones left the Snowden Dist. lo.

they returned to the hotel, had dinner and then Manning, called on Earl Dalton

at the Southland. He told Dalton he understood Dalton was formerlv connect-

ed with some people in Chicago. That he, Manning was in the beer racket

and wanted to move to Dallas.

That the elections in thicago put a lot of

heat on his business and they were going to have to lay low for a while.

Manning was very curious about the local racket set up, local politics, how

much power the Texas Rangers has, if the Rangers could go over a Sheriff's

head, how the city was fixed, how the city and county got along together,

in short, he tried to find out as much as he could about the local syndi-

cates method of operation. He told Dalton he was leaving on the 4.45 F.M.

plane for Chicago.

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11-8

Paul Jones called at 6.15 P.M. tonight, to say he was leaving town

via plane in the next few minutes.

He said

Knapp was still with him and

both were leaving together.

They will be back monday.

He is going to try

and make arrangements with Titche Goettinger to get two magnun pistols.

He said he had been with his local people all day today and they were

ready.

There is

some rumor going around that Kessman is making all the ap-

pointments

for Steve and Frank

s. is going to be left out in the cola.

Noble is going to be the head man in the new set up. The local

syndicate seems to be for him.

Apparently one big reason Ñoble has not been killed as per previous

orders is that some of the toughest west Dallas boys put the word in the

right places That should joble be killed, so would all the Southlana

group, including Lois and Johnny."

There is absolutely no doubt that "recky miller killed Eadie (1111lano.-

Archie Archer struck him a time or two but -

11-11-46

Paul Jones called long distance from Chicago to Butler J588392 about

1.05 I.M.

When operator was notified Butler was not at home he left in-

structions for Butler to call Operator 63 at Chicago when he arrived.

Butler called Duh Iadler, who had already left for Austin. Acting as per

instructions, Butler then called Chicago 63 and was almost immediately

connected with Paul Jones.

This contact made at 1.15 P.M. Conversa-

Paul: "nos is everything?"

B: "O.K.*

Paul:

"Did you get those guns at Titchels?"

B:

"ivo, i've been mighty busy

this morning. I had to go to work today and

haven't had time."

Paul:

"I have one here, but I would like to get two more in case we want

to give one to someone

else."

"Hell, they are handy little gadgets to have around".

Paul:

"They sure are - see if you can get two more at Titche's and i will

be in a lew days and take care

of everything."

"I'Il see what I can do."

Paul:

"How is the other party?"

B: "He is alright. I talked to him yesterday and he is mighty interested

in the deal. However, he is going to Austin and won't be back until the

week

end.

Chences are, he is already gone."

Paul:

"That's fine, everything depends on you George, and I will see you

in a few days.

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b: "Say, my transfer that we were talking about went through today."

"Congratulations!

Paulirhanks, when you get here let me hear fron you."

• know you will make a good man."

Paul: "I will."

B: way, Paul, when you phone me, call my

wife and have her get in

touch with me.

Don't call the department."

Paul: "i sure won't. I'll see you in a few days, joodbye."

B: Hoodbye. "

11-14-46

5.50 P.M.

a gone ho into per tor is at raced e

He

a couple of days.

Monday the boys were going to have a meeting in Chicago

to discuss further the set up in Dallas.

Everything was alright. He had

located one wagnum with a 31" barrell and was going to buy all he could

thought maybe he could get some in N.Y.

iveryone wanted one now

that they knew what they could do and it would be hard to get here with

too many.

wash is reported as saying he is the man who is hiring steve's

deputies.

So says dam Passman about himself.

Contrary to what the local

syndicate has said they definitely intend

to set tight and try to hold what they have.

moble really has a swanky set up at the San Pauls Hotel.

11-20-46

Faul Jones called from i. I. Üity at 3.30 A.M. today. He said that he

had been to Chicago but had returned to N. I. That he was leaving i. i.

today (led) for Chicago and would be in Dallas either Thursday night or

Friday morning. That everytning was U. K. That his wlfe was coming to

Dallas Monday to be with him.

That he had on 357 Magnun pistol and woula

try to get more in Chicego ans Kansas City.

Tuffx Nelson from all indications has been going around in the county

"feeling out" the slot machine operators.

He is going to be the head of

the new vice squad in the county.

Mean me cars be teached through the bull serica

r., next to the show on Singleton Blva. The rangers have heen giving

his machines hell the past few days. He lost 4 today plus fines.

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Billy Butter recently seen with mick Cascio in san Antonio.

Charley Radar is going to be Dalton's front man at the new "Sirango

Clubron Cedar

*t cost Delber and Bowers $1, 000.00 to get out of the Texas City

Deal.

Monk Wright is now in Med. Arts rospital with an infected kidney.

recently broke his lez

The murder of the jute box man lound in Denton county stinks. Roy

¡ore made a statement that this was his last go around and he was going

to make it.

There is no doubt about the man having been beat over the

Paul Jones at Adolphus Century Room with Jack Knappe

They arrived at

7.30 I li, and

are registered in room 1036. Jones talked to Butler on the

dance floor, said he had the magnum upstairs and to come by later and get

Later, Butler, his wife, Mr. & Mrs. Macy went to Jones room where Jones

showed the party the pistol, saying it cost in excess of $110.00 which

ceiling price.

Jones said he got the gun from a collector at Mershall

Fields in Chicago and at this time had six more ordered.

The wagnum had

an oversized wooden grip special sights and Jones asked Butler if he want-

ed to give the gun to Steve or would it be better to have Jones giverit to

him. Butler said it would be better if Jones made the presentation him-

self. Jones agreed to call Butler the next day. While in Jones room

the phone rang, Jones answered it and told whoever it was calling that he

would call them back right away.

Knapp watched Jones like a hawk during

this conversation.

11-25-

Re: Dalton's lay out on Ceder Springs.

Pernit taken out on 10-24-46 for remodel private dwelling into private

club at 2925 Cedar Springs owner of land - Lewis and Lambert-3728 it.

Manier contractor J. Edward Smith total cost $24,000.00.

Club supposed to take care of parties and overflow of Dallas Athletic

ülub and Glenn Lake C. C. Especially designed for private parties and gumb

11ng°

Contacted room 1036 Adolphus and talked to Jack Knapp who said Jones

had tried to get in touch with me yesterday (sunday) and wanted to see me,

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right away. That Jones was at R. 4489 which i called and talked to Jones.

He said he was leaving at 12.55 tonight for Chicago and was due in buffalo,

N.Y. tomorrow.

That he wanted to get in touch with Steve and not only

give him his gun but to get the go ahead word to tell his people. I told

him Steve was out of town

and I would make some arrangements for tonight

and would call Paul at his hotel about 4.30 P.M. or 5 and let him know

what Steve said about seeing him tonight.

This conversation took place to-

day at 12.40 F.. between my phone J. 88392 and R4489. R4487 is Iisted to

Barrows Barber Shop, wercantile Bank Building.

Paul Jones arrived at my house at 10.45 P.l. by himsel:, in a cab

which waited for him.

He stayed until 12.10 A.M.

The first thing he said was: That two Dallas men named Pete Strance

and Bit, Bundy were recently in Chicago and talked to. Eddie Voget

They

told Vogel that they had Dallas and asked if he would be interested in com-

ing in.

Be at a super and and,

Vogel was surprised and asked them if they knew Paul Jones.

They

said Paul had been run out of Dallas.

Vogel called in Jones and asked him

if he, Jones, knew what he was talking about..

Jones said that tonight he

and Knapp had dinner with Bundy and Strance and were told they could start

operating this coming Monday.. Jones wanted to know what the score was.

I

told him that as far as I knew it was settled when Manning, Knapp, Jones,

Guthrie and myselt had the meeting at Steve's house. Strance and

Bundy

are good friends of Boy Coffey and Gay Ballon.

Jones wanted to know If Guthrie would reassure this people over long

distance phone about the deal still being 0.K.

I told him if there was any

doubt he would talk to them personally. He suggested Steve fly to Chicago

but I told him that would be out of the question.

Jones said the man sitting at the table with him Sat. night at the Cen-

Andrews, Chilton,

to a beton tale on testate time

Manning was in Dallas and offered him the town saying; the local group was

"out".

Jones said he understood the local syndicate

was out after the first

of the year.

Jones said also that Samaris claimed he had everything after

Jones also seid that Niem Nate and abomt 20 of his boys were

here from Pittsburgh and Niger and 4 of his boys were staying at the Baker.

All could be picked up at San's Place.

Jones used the phone several times. He called the Adolphus Hotel and

asked to be connected to 1036.

The line was busy and he got the operator

to cut him in on the conversation.

Later he called back and talked to Jack

Anapp.

Whatever the conversation

Jones immediately called the Bruniff

Airlines and cancelled his reservations to tonights flight, making reser-

vations on the 4•45 P.M. flight 11-20-46, for Mr. and Mrs. Donald Baske

814 W. 26th Place, Chicago, Illinois, Jack Knapp and himself.

Jones wants some assurance from Steve before he leaves. Jones mill

call me in the morning to see what Steve is willing to do.

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"÷...

Jones said that if I want him for anything while he is in Chicago to

call him collect at the Bismark

Hotel.

te offered no excuses for Knapp not coming along.

He said he had dinner with Waxey Gordon

on at the Madison Square Club room

and that berty e

Uchs was there.

Taul said he called Chicago later about

this boy.

They asked him to check and see what was brewing. They found

Labriola and Vineberg there, called the cops and had them run out of town.

Jones left me ai 357 Magnum 43830 S.  W. with ling sights and a leather

holster with U. S. Court House,

Chicago, written on it in baol ink. äol-

ster made by reiser, Denver and has a $804 stamped in the leather. Also

cut in the leather was NS 218.

Apparently some ones name had been scratch-

ed off the holster. Grips of pistol were oversized red cedar and he had an

extra pair of handles for the gun, which had number 52846 stamped on the in-

side.

Calls made from Jones room 1036, Adolphus:

T

74904

J 88392

C 1419

T

70344

C 2255

# 3516

T 32565

C 9296

T 1120

L 9602

L 65039

$50.00 bill from Jones serial ED1047838.

Pete Strance and Bill Bundy

are supposed to be the men who financed the Rotolett; the new electric slot

machine that pays off in stamped tickets which are cashed in.

11-26-

Called Steve at 9 A.M. he was reluctant to make any arrests before he

went into office but agreed to talk to Chief Hansson on the aspects of the

case via long distance phone today.

Paul Jones came by my house on the way to the airport where he left

on the 1.30 Fil, ship for Chicago, saying he would be at the Bismark Hotel

tonight and would call Steve from

there late tonight.

He wants more con-

firmation on his deal with Steve, Jack Knapp, lir. & irs. Don Blaski were

supposed to go with him. Jones was reluctant to talk about Niger Nate and

all the boys hanging around, Sam Yaris' place. is going to return to Dal-

las Friday. Said for me to keep the gun as he had a new one for Steve.

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sit ones

11-26

Manning reported to be the vice president of the Joliet Chicago brew

Tre Is the real head of the numbers racket in Chicago.

brother named "Jeff"

cago. e nas

who earns $1,000.00 per week as manager of one of

the biggest wheels.

Pat Manning, Jeff Manning, Faul Jones and & man

hamed Willie own a large tavern in Chicago.

ilannings home valued in ex-

cess of $100,000.00.

To all external appearances Manning is a legitimate

business man and is not closely associated in any way that can be traced

with any of the rackets.

Sam saris owes many of his troubles to the Chicago syndicate. It

Looks as though Sam is going to be called to Chicago real soon to have a

talk with his brother Dave about the company he is keeping here in Dallas.

The crowd hanging around

Sans is not officially connected with Paul Jones

people, according to Jones.

On commenting that Jack Knapp seemed to be a very smart boy Jones

offered the information that Knapp formerly had the whole state of Wis. for

the syndicate, that he was a college man,

and was a nephew of the 5th men in

the syndicate.

He is 31 years old, doesn't do much drinking.

Earl Dalton will soon be called to Chicago anà notified that he is

through in Dallas as are the rest of the boys, unless they want to play

On being asked how much money Steve was offered Jones would not say.

He did say that Steve's refusal to take the roll make his people wonder

if they had a deal or not.

11-27

Paul Jones called my home from Chicago at 1.15 A.M. today.

He said

he had been unable to get an answer to Steve's phone.

He wanted to have me

say hello to some of his friends.

He said - come on Eddie say hello to

this man.

Some one else sald say hello, Vogel! Finally, Pat Manning cane

to the phone and said hello - He said Paul would be in tomorrow to start

the ball to rolling and that he would be seeing me soon. Goodbye!

BARON CHRISTIAN BENDTSEN - Christian Bendson, Christian Warner Bendt -

Benätsen and,

Christian N.

. Benat - Bendtsen. inv. on security matter, N.Y.

botn July 8, 1897 - Copenhagen, Denmark.

wived S. Africa from 1898-1895 when he entered the U.S. Norked in numer-

ous hotels throughout the U.s. and he was a head waiter.

Convicted and sentenced in 1930 for counterfeiting in N. i. Olty.

Passing money.

iNo un-Amer. tendencies.

Forged numerous checks on wife at

gambling ganes in diani, Fla. no prosecution.

NW 50529 DocId:32241873 Page 66

-16-

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## Page 67

in an a incide a '

Niger Nate.

"ate Raymona, allas Diger Nata tanett, Niger Nate Linnett, white, Jew,

5'6""164-170"" dark hair streaked vith gray, unusual

•Ta Tade protruaing jaw

line, wears expensive clothes, never a hat.

Rutland:

NH 50529

county to operate. This will do away with the pay off to the city hall gang

and give the county more money to divide. Passsman reported to be very friendly

Says that Miller told him (R) that the town would be closed down after

the first and that if anyone ran it would be on their own. When asked about the

policy end of the business he had not beard what is going to happen to that.

Kutiand still does not like steve and commented that the bunch oi men he nired

would do nothing but cause trouble, especially Jack medford.

raul Jones arrived with Mrs. Jones via braniff last night. He called

Butler about 1.30 F.M. at his home.

water he came to Butler's home in yellow

cab $78, about 2 i.i.

Gutler informed Jones that there was a pick up on all

the out of town boys in Dallas

at this time and it would be advisable for Jones

to leave or lie low for a while. Inasmuch as Jones had some dental work he had

to have done and also had his wife here he seid he would have to take a chance

by staying.

he asked Butler to take himto the washington Apts. where B. met

ürs. J.ürs. J. made some coffee and during the conversation Mrs. jones asked

Paul when Roby was coming in, and Paul said, tomorrow evening.

Jones. had already told Eutler that J: ack Knapp would be in tomorrow so Roby

and Jack are probably one and the same.

In discussing Ramon and Madden Jones

advised me to go ahead and arrest then - run them out of town, that they and

San Yaris were nothing but trouble makers..

That he, Jones, could not arzord to

ask eny questions about them but they all hung around Sam Yaris' place and coula

be picked up there.

On being questioned about Bundy and Strance, Jones stated that they had;

pointment to meet Eddie Vogel

statement to Voget" that they 1

"had put up $168, 000 to élect Jester for lovernor

and Guthrie for Sheriff and they had been given Dallas County.

They would be

willing go give Vogel a nice piece of the take if he would finance the deal but

they wanted their $168,000. they had spent for campaign expenses right off the

top, first.

This declaration by these men was made at about the same time Paul

Jones made his. Paul was with Vogel and Manning at the time he last called

Butler from Chicago.

As a result of this other proposition, coming from a

fairly reliable source, Paul says his people are a little cold and willing to

wait until steve gets set before they start moving.

Jones stated that aiter he talked to me he went to iv.Y.city - to mexico

City - to Chicago anâ so to Dallas.

If it were not or his urgent need to

see a dentist he would take his wife on to Mexico for a short vacation while

things are cooling off here.

DooId: 32241873

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## Page 68

While at Jones apartment he showed me a letter from the Streamaster Co. in

N.Y. City dated 11-16-46 and addressed to Paul Jones c/o Jacobson Co. 324 Halsted

Street, Chicago, Illinois and signed by S. Vernon Mann, JI.

The letter was for an

order of specified steel sheeting 325,625 pounds for which Jones had been given a

check for $325.00 by Mr. Mann, who told Jones that the rest of the money would be

paid by a sight draft on delivery. The letter mentioned the writer having met

wirs. Jones, a very charming person, and hoped that she was feeling fine. Apparently

the deal was made at the Syracuse Hotel and was of the black market variety.

Is going to keep in touch with me and let me know when Knapp arrives but will not

let Knapp go to the Adolphus Hotel.

While at Jones Apt. he gave me an Akron fountainpen in a box number 743.

said these pens were nationally known and were given to him by a friend who had

ordered a large bunch of them when pens were hard to get.

Jones had an appointment with his lawyer T. K. at 3 P.M. I drove him from

the apartment to the Irwin - Kessler Bldg. in my car.

Jones seemed to be very sincere about Samaria being his enemy and wanting

to cause him all the trouble possible. He said Sam had already got a call from

Chicago to keep his big mouth shut.

He said, in all probability Ramon and Madden

with the other boys had already moved from the Baker Hotel and that Sam's was the

ideal place to pick them uo.

City by La Guardia for personal reasons, that they were not so tough.

According to

Jones, Yaris is a very crude sort of person and is always causing trouble.

Sussman of the S. & Co. Coin Machine Co. gave the orner of Lucky's Tavern

$400.00 to take out a competitors Seaburg machine and put in his Wurlitzer phono-

graph.

Jimmie Mills is going arouna telling people he is Steve's first cousin and

can fix the county for a price.

Ben Musick is saying the same thing and has made a

statement that he was going to put ta. Harvey out of business.

Sam Varis has a big phone connection in the construction Blds. thought to be

in the name of S. H. Novelty Co

Some Ft. Worth man runs that end of it.

In talking to Paul Jones he made the confidential remark that if ever I made

a really big narcotic haul and wanted to get well that all I had to do was to call

him. He knew a man who would take it off my hands without any risk or embarrassment

and pay top prices.

12-4

Niges Note - Nathan i. Maymond record 10-23-09 Nathan Sedlow, Seattle, wash-

ington - gaming fined 350. 8=20-23.

firearms as alien.

10-26-23 John marris, Vancouver, B.C. vag. fined. 1-9-12 Har-

ry Cohen, Sacramento, lal. using shaved dice, given hours to leave town. 12-19-25

222212

Raymond "athan san trancisco, val. veg. aischarged 11-26-29 iathan L. raymond, iN.y.

City material witness nomiciäe discharged 4-26-30 Nathan L. raymond H.X. lity tor-

gery, 2nd degree 5 to 10 years State prison.

-18-

NW 50529 DocId: 32241873 Page 68

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## Page 69

Re: Roy Sistrunk

M.0. File

11-22-46 Capt. Fritz, furnished list of knob knockers,

cars etc. to Chief Will

Johns.

12-4

Ater trying unsuccess.ully all day to contact Paul Jones in order to get him out

of town, I finally went by his house

about 6.45 P.M. He told me that he was ex-

pecting Bill Decker to come by ana

see him - that someone had told Bill some hard

things Paul was supposed to have said about him. I told him thet i had telked to

and Steve asked me to have Paul leave town until after the round up of the

outside racketeers in Dallas.

Paul seid Jack Knapp was going to come in from Chicago on the 7.55 p.n. plane

and asked me if I would take him and Mrs. Jones out to meet the plane.

agreed to do and we met the plane, zoing directly from the airport to Paul's house.

Paul sent Mrs. Jones in the house and I explained again to Jack what was about to

happen, cretending that San Yaris was the man who put all the heat on the outsid-

Jack asked me what they should ao.

I said leave before everyone gets locked

He said to Paul that he thought it was a good idea and that he had plenty of

things in the next two weeks for him and Paul to be busy doing.

On being questioned about the bundy - strance deal Jack said that was a lot

of pop corn and had finally been straightened out.

Knapp said he and Paul had several things to discuss but that they would leave

tonight via plane.

Knapp asked me if I had any confidence in Steve Guthrie.

I

said - "Yes, why?"

He said - "Well, if you have, alright; because we have plenty

of confidence in you.

Apparently they had been hearing lots about Sam Yaris, big mouth in Chicago,

because Knapp said he has not the least surprised that it was laris who brought on

the heat.

Paul said he thought fritz was under the impression that he and Sem Yaris

worked together.

Knapp asked me if I would mina takire them to the airport and I seid I wouldn't

mind.

he told Paul to tell his wile to pack and they got out of the car about

8.55 p.M. They

are to call me later to go to the airport.

At 11.00 p.m. Paul Jones called and asked me to meet him at his apartment.

On arrival there,

he said he and Jack had talked it over and decided that it would

be best for Steve, Butler, and

everyone else concerned if he, Paul, were errested

with the other boys.

After some argument and to keep them from becoming

suspicious

of me I agreed it was the most reasonable thing to do. Paul Jones will he in the

Van Horn care next to the Rex Liquor Store on Commerce Street. Jack Knaon to

take

the 7.45 all. Elane to Chicero. Mrs Jones again called Knapp "Rohy'.

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NW 50529 DocId: 32241873 Page 69

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## Page 70

i see torn don"

incide me ot

12-5

I Dicked up Jack Knapp at Jones apartment at 6e45 a.m. and carried him to the

airport where he checked out on Braniff 7.45 a.m. plane for Chicago; Knapp insisted

I take a $100.00 bill from him for an Xmas present. Money recovered from these

people to date:

11-5-46 from Paul Jones (7) a 20.00 bill "J" - Serial number J27964-65.

11-25-46 a $50.00 bill from Paul Jones on 11-25-46 serial #K01047838A.

A $100.00 bill from Jack Knapp on 12-5-46 (Xmas present) Seriel #C00493145A.

Lou Schneider is now at shreveport, La. In with buddy Satcher with Shreveport

Novelty cow, valued at $169,000.00

vipsky has a piece of this deal.

Dick Dejohn has been dead since May. He simply disappeared.

a11

gun fight today. They may show up in Dallas.

Lipsky is nor in Los Angeles, Cal. He is not working. He is staying with his

girl friend.

12-6-47 Paul's Apt.

George Letendre is still in Dallas.

Villiam messina is now in Chicago and will stay in Chicago. He operates a sel-

oon.

Leo Goldsand is working with Sam laris and at last accounting was living with

Sam at his house.

Harry Hornstein is now in San Francisco. He is leaving tomorrow for Chicago

and minter. City

Monday.

Labriola and his boys are sure to

contact Redinck, 2903 Elm St.

Also given me were about & box 38 shells and about là lbs.

of "Dago"

sausage.

with the magnum this includes all gifts made to me by these people to date.

Due to Steve's turning down a big wad of bills and my "obvious" financial con-

dition, it would, in my opinion

be suspicious to reject even small change like this.

Honey will be accounted for.

Call made by Lipsky to Satcher from Los Angeles to the Starr Night Club, Dallas,

7998+794500001

12=3-46

Satcher is going back to Shreveport, La. (he lives at the Jefferson Hotel) and

HH 50529 DocId:32241873

Page 70

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## Page 71

Sixs 5.11.

wine titude ret

back through Dallas Saturday on his way to Los Angeles to see Lipsky.

Is going to bring bou snyder with him when he comes.

San Yaris keeps a room at the Baker Hotel.

12-6-46 Paul's Apt.

Breakstore now running a raper shop in Chicago located at 702 F. Roosevelt d

listed as Jullan

R. Breakstone, textile jobber, Phone:

Haymarket 0579.

as a bank robber end Tence: Is a brother-in-law of multi-millionaire Keeshin - who

operates nationwide truck line.

Jones again said that if I should run into a big done haul that he could dispose

of it right away for casho, at the highest price.

Un being asked to explain the remark about me trusting Steve Jones said that so

many people cleimed to have the county that lots of people were wondering just what

the score was. He said he saw Steve today working in his yard.

sata add Satcher end tou serene 2 the man named B111 Durkee 20% Tarantelle

Met McDowell at the FBI office 2 p.m. and discussed different phases of the

case of the Chicago outfit up to this date.

Machowell would like to have another

meeting after he has had a chance to coach Steve on what to say and what to do.

Contacted Paul Jones at nis apartment. He and Mrs. Jones were there. Paul

injured his right knee and ankle while trying to ride a horse Sunday. He walks

with a bad limp.

Paul said that he heard that Liosky was on his way back to Dallas to meet some

some people. I told him I understood Lipsky was to meet satcher. Our information

must have come from the same source.

I told him that my info. was that Satcher

ano Lou Schneider had made an agreement to collect from Lipsky the money he owed

Satcher. (or else). Paul said the "or else" may depend on whether Danny Lardine was

with Lipsky. Paul Jones said Lipsky had bought out Buddy satcher's Interest st

S.W. Amusement Co. for $50,000.00. Lipsky gave Buddy $5,000.00 down and a note for

$45,000.00, also 5% in several routes running out of La.

At the present time Lipsky

still owes him $40,000.00.

Lou ichneider is now living with Mittie *lice Satcher

in Shreveport.

Jones said he was going to fix it so that Lipsky would never come

back to Dallas.

That Danny Lardino had been with Liosky for 17 years more or less

acting as his bodyguard - Danny got married in March 146. lie seid now that the men

had died in Chicago as a result of the machine gunning the beat was really on.

Not oniy vere the Ühicago police looking for Labriola, Ochs, Baralla, Russo, and

ineberg but "his" (Paul's people) were looking for them, too. It would not be

hard to guess what would happen when the boys found them. Jones promised me that

if they hit tallas I rould be notified so that I could pick them up. They might

"writ out" but when they did his people would take over.

NW 50529 DocId: 32241873 Page 71

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## Page 72

Jones still very interested in making some money out of dope.

says he has a

friend who will buy large lots running up as much as $800,000.00.

This friend buys

it at the border in kilos 35 oz. for $8,000.00.

He will take all i can get and I can

pick us a little change.

Also Paul says that he can get me all the 100" sugar couons I want for $8.00 esch.

I can turn around and get $12.50 per hundred for the coupons.

He says the people

dealing with the coupons are wildcats and should they walk into a trap could shoot to

kill. But, he says, we would make plenty of money as rationing is going on another

year.

Paul wants to have another meeting with Steve and his chief dept. this weekend.

se can get his people here and they can be personally convinced of the deal.

Some of the boy boys are due in Dallas tomorrow. He is going to call me at

noon.

Maybe he will introduce me.

12-11

Fay wood wife Fay Industrial Blvd. Houston, Texas truck driver - fence for bonds,

jenelry.

Ear tanetin Beaumont same type.

Paul Jones said that Lipsky Rave & Dallas business man $2, 500. 00 hot check to be

appliea on canveign expenses for Joe Cunningham.

The business man turned $2,500.00

cash into Joe's fund but when the check was run through the bank it bounced.

says Lipsky woulâ love to come back to Dallas and become a big shot. However, if he

does come back the check will be held over his head.

Contacted

Paul Jones who said he was expecting Buddy Satcher in from Shreveport

any minute, so I did not stay long. He did not know what Satcher wanted. Jones

said three big timers were coming into Dallas tonight from Chicago and he wanted to

have a meeting with Steve as soon as it could be arranged..

names.

know the latest about them. Contacted Mildred Sis - trunk.

She said she had heard about some Dallas character running off with $9,000.

that was supposed to have been used to get Roy out of jail but had not been able to

verify it.

She claims Roy's deal is just a shakedown on the part of the DA in

"orman Ukla. That it cost her $2,500.00 to get

Roy out of Okmulgee Ukla. whenhe was

caught in a joint there.

It cost her $200.00 tine when Roy was caught in front of the

wholesale drug company in Ft. Smith, Ark.

That should Roy be convicted he would be

willing to clear up all his business in Dallas.

Jr. Thomas married Patty Little in Pockwell about 6 weeks ago and is now in i.

Texas.

male on one to ease seeing ero do on one oat darner,

JI. Thomas, and Roy.

-22-

NW 50529 DooId:32241873 Page 72

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## Page 73

ZiE.

dina Maria:

Mildred said some of the local boys want to help out Roy now. She says herself

that Roy is dangerous when he is doped up.

Roy had a very bad dope habit be ore he

got caught.

She said that Roy went to the police prop. room to get back some of his stuff

that they returned to him, emong his other

things some cocaine and that foy came home

higher than a kite.

Dago ferns is now selling dope at his cleaning shop on Harwood.

12-12

Paul Jones called my house at 12.15 p.m. and said the his people would be avail-

te he would be hone right atter milnisht and for ne ta tune brend let blinor

either friday or Pat. to see Steve. In giving his wife a birthday party tonight.

about the aprointment.

Buddy satcher is now registered at the Adolphus Hotel.

Leon fulbrisht is hauling lots of wood in from san Antonio. I.K. reportza to be

furnishing negroes Money to buy marijuana.

Contacted Paul Jones at his apartment about 12.20 a.m. 12-13-46. Present were

Paul Jones, Jeck KnaDD, two men introduced to me as Murrar Humphies end Jack Guzik

All were drinking, heving attended Paul's wife's birthday party.

Also present at Ene

party, according to Paul, were the biggest lawyers in this man's town.

was sober.

55#, black hair, combed straight back, brown, very bright eyes, full oval face with

Murray Humphries description: age about 40-45, ht. 516 or 79, st. 145UWR

tapering chin, dressed in dark blue double breasted very expensive styled suit,

brown shoes, hand painted tie.

Wore a large diamond ring on left ring finger.

Very

observant, apparently well educated, suave, sophisticated appearance, quiet.

Jack uzik description:

age about

ht 5 tall" or 6, wt. 175-90#, square

built, brown hair parted on left side,

Gray eyes wide set, fair complexion, broad

face,

dead pan expression, penetrating look, dressed in sport shirt with gray ex-

pensive looking suit.

Apparently carried two pistols, one shoulder houlster and one bUllY

rt. bip holster. - coat was bulky. Did not talk much, always kept his eyes on me. D!

I had a drink with them to help celebrate Paul's birthday.

After introducions had been made Paul had several gick drinks and tried to act

drunk.

ie told the others he had the town.

explained that Steve wanted to see who

he was dealing with personally and I wanted to make a date for 2.30 p.m. 12-13-46.

They insisted that Paul do all their talking and it would be O.K. But if it were

absolutely necessary that they would return to Dallas Tuesday or Wednesday.

Faul said that he had a long distance call from lavana, Cuba from a man named

Emanuel Busto, who wanted him to come there and take over the huge night club (Coco-

cabana). He also pulled out of an envelope some honorary police association cards

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HH 50529 DocId:32241873 Page 73

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## Page 74

the Police Dept. at Wheeling, W.Ve. Yaul gave each of his out of

town guests

a card. Paul also pulled out an envelope containing the names, addresses, and phone

numbers of some national known criminals.

After about 30 min. Paul pulled out a very large roll of 91, 000.00 bills and said

if hs friend the sheriff wanted anything to let him know.

Then he reached into his

pocket and pulled out another wad of bills.

From ths roll he gave every one present

except me a $500.00 bill for his wife's birthday present. Paul acted very silly and

the others acted disgusted with him and wanted to call a cab.

I carried them to the

Akard St. side of the Baker Hotel and let them out. They claimed they had to be in

Chicago tonight and were leaving this morning via plane.

Jack Knapp said he would

call me when he left. I let them out about 1.30 A i.

Would let me know anything he

heard that might help me. Also that he had a recent visit to the detective office and

some of the boys told him I had asked to be transferred.

He mentioned Jim Welch's

part in the tar & feather job on the labor organizer several years ago.

Fickeâ up Peul jones at the Med. Arts Blag. about 3.20 P.l. and carried him to

Steve's house.

Faul said Lipsky was

staying at the Wilshire Hotel in Los Angeles.

He arrived at steve's house at 3.40 P.N. Present at the session vere Steve,

Paul & Butler.

Conversation covered

a few generalities, then Paul got iown to busi-

ness going over what ras expected of Steve, how he was to let his people know in aà-

vent of a raid, how to take care of grand jury evidence, and some other angles that

his people were interested in.

Paul discussed a very recent indictment against him which ne claims vas an effort

to get him in the pen. The whole thing was a frame up by the local syndicate and was

put through by Bill Decker at the insistence of Binions group.

He said Dean Gauldin at first knew nothing about his indictment but that men he

found out about it Gauldin got mad

as hell. Dean has already taken care of faul's

case so that Paul won't go to the pen.

Jones said that Pat Menning's real neme was Pat Manno and that he only went under

the name of Manning for business

He said for the same reasons Jack Knapp had changed his name from

Ni tattoo

and that Jack's father was Fellt Witti or Nappie

Both Knapp's and

Jack Happy or

parents were born in Italy.

Jones claimed he could get Al Capone to come to Dallas if Steve wanted them, but

it was very bad business for Steve to bring people like that into Dallas as it caused

lots of heat.

Jones very pointedly gave me a hint that I should leave the room. He apparently

gave

Steve quite a roll, amount to be verified later.

Jones said Knapp and some of the other boys were coming in next week and we would

all get together for one last meeting. He also said that things were bound to come up

to change everyone's plans (if he only knew).

HW 50529 DocId: 32241873

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## Page 75

artard, cattier daissa do die anamed diminis !

de is going

to call me tomorrow.

Buddy satcher came in led. night late, ie is at the Adolphus. Lem Mehnelder

took buddy's car to Chicago and got $6,400.00 for it.

Lipsky supposed to be on his way to Dallas. The man thought to be Shetsky was

not Shetsky (Sam Winkler).

The resemblance was so close that me had the man fingerprinted. Don't think

it aroused any suspicion.

office.

Glynn Byrd and Dale Sedgwick are the special investigators. for the D. A. 's

Runor is that they

were deputized by Roby Love.

They did not want to have

Buster Karns has been put back on the pawnshop detail. jugh Graham is - - -

12-15

Talked to Steve and he said he was ready-not only to tear up the Chicago outfit

but the Soutnland and Herb Noble as well.

He feels like he has been double crossed

on all sides by people he thought he could trust. Has had to refinance his cars and

make arrangements to take care of some other incidentals. He told me to make the

final arrangements to close out the case with the Chicago people. After leaving

Steve 1 contacted Paul Jones. He and his wife were home getting ready for bed.

his conversation Jones said he dian't quite understand Steve. He, Paul, was ready

to go any time Steve gave the word Jones went over his last conversation with Steve.

te offered Steve enough money to take care of his immediate needs and the needs of

his deputies.

Also, he said he wanted to see that I got enough cash to handle any-

thing I needed at this time.

Jones says he can't see any occasion tor bringing any more people here. He says

Steve should be careful

about talking to lots of people, about a fix. That when 2

or more talked it over it was a conspiracy and the Federal could handle the set uo.

I assured him that Steve only wanted a definite understanding not only with Jones but

the man back of him.

Jones went to a dresser drawer and took out a large roll of bills. He said he

had all the money he could ever use, that he had money in every drawer in the house,

and when Steve gave the word he could get all he needed.

se told Steve about now he could make some extra money after he got into office

by sending some of his men out to meet his trucks when they got to the county line.

By excorting the trucks through the county to keep them from being hi-jacked he could

pick up some honest money.

Jones also said he was planning à trip to Havana to take over a club there for

the winter season.

12-16

Steve contacted Paul via Phone at 11 All. from pay station at Skillerno Abrams &

NH 50529 DocId: 32241873 Page 75

-25

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## Page 76

mi....

...

Gaston. Final arrangements are to be finished with wed. when Knepp, Manning

and may-

be some more people will come in. Details later.

There was a shooting at the Melba Hotel about 10 days ago involving a gambler

and a pimp. One of the men involved was Jack Hunnasucker.

Details not know but

will be furnished later.

Roy Parker, Packy Miller, Charley Archer and another character recently got

into a big argunent at the Merchants Club but were separated in time to prevent a

shooting.

Ity Miller seems to be very interested in the activities of Ganns-vay & Butler.

Lois treen reported as saying he had a fight with Butler and Ganneway and kick-

ed the hell out of both of them.

Herbert Noble lost 24,000.00 over the week end. He was closed up by Sgt. Lump-

kin who took 3 slot machines in the raid.

As soon as one game is raided calls keep

coming in on others.

Benny Binion is still in torn ano is going to stay until alter the first.

or is strong now that he will puil out entirely.

Reported as common gossip among

the gamblers that Miller and Dalton will also quit. Udds are against them closing.

Pecky Miller will have to be disposed of. In all probability Ivy Miller will go ov-

er to H. N. 's side since Miller has helped Noble with money in the past.

Dorothy, Ralph King's girl, who was a syndicate stool working in jobles place

does not work there any more.

heat

put on Noble is ribbec up by some people outside the rackets to bring

about some killings.

Pea farris has movea to Richita Falls.

Freddie Marrant is back in Dallas.

Contacted Paul Jones at his apt. about 7.05 p.n. Stayed until 7.30 PN. Me

said he was ready to make his deal

Fith steve at 2 P.M. Fednesday. I

an to pick him

and 2 more Chicago men up at that time'at his apt. He said Knapp would he one of the

boys and both would continue to work in Dallas.

Paul said he was contacted by a dope

seller a wholesale man, who offered him $105,000.00 worth of. bottlea, taxed narco-

+ ics out of wolesale drug stores, government and local hospitals, for $70,000.00

each. He is to get a complete inventory tomorrow. He says he may he able to put

the guys on the spot and if it is a not necessary to kill them, which may be the

case that he will personally take care of the deal.. There are two men involvea.

He is to call my house tonight at 5 P.M. with a windy story cooked up to mislead any-

one who might be listening in on the phone.

Paul asked me to come over and take a picture of his Xmas tree.

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He said he had some information about 2 local gamblers who were due to be kill-

ed by competitors right away.

Jones was feeling very good about the way things

are going. He intends to buy a country place right away where his people can stay

when they are in town and Steve can have a visit with them without being seen by

people who would be glad to cause him trouble.

Jones is also going to have Knapp end the others stay in Tourist Courts untll

they

are better

settled.

Contacted S.M.

Merschel Walker

was in town this past triday night.

borise Campbell, wife of

Bill Campbell is living with marge Daniels.

Also living it large's house on Travis

are "Slim" and Milared Hayes. Slim is supposed to be big time stuff.

Last week Marge caught Dave Jarvis out with another girl. Louise was with

Louise pulled hair of the girl with Dave.

Dave got madand slapped hell out

of Louise. Louise got mad then and is supposed to have gone dom to Bill Decker and

told Bill all she knew about lave, Marge & Co.

Marge and Dave left, thinking maybe there would be some gun play.

Indications are that miller will tie in with ioble if and when voble gets some

assurance from Steve. Reportea that Penny has already left town.

After driving away from Elm & Ervay Lois went to the Embessy Club, his downtown

headquarters.

Received a tip that a big dope delivery was to be made at the Embassy Club at

8 P.M. but we are sure this is just another false alarm.

Every night most of Lois Green's gang can be found at the Embassy lub on Elm

Street. He does not have an alarm system set up yet.

12-18-46

Contacted Faul Jones at his apartment at 7.30 Pil. He was just getting up.

On being asked if he haa noticed

any activity on the part of Cept. Fritz, or

Bill Decker, he said no.

Jones stated that Jack Knapp was here,.

as well asanother

man from Chicago. That he was bringing along with Knapp this P.M. his local re-

presentative, Jessie Chilton. He wanted Steve to meet this man and later on the

other man from Chicago.

Appointment set for 2 P,M. this afternoon. All to be picked up at Paul's apart-

ment in my car.

Dagger Adams and fied Harris have gone to irichita Falls.

Picked up Paul Jones, Jack Knapp and Jessie Chilton at Jones Apt. et 2.05 F.M.

Steve did not invite us in but got into the car with us. We drove to 6144 Anita St.

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## Page 78

isn-t. it

where Paul Jones got out and rang the doorbell. No one answered.

Paul's ex-wife

is supposed to live there.

From there we drove back to steve's house. Very little

discussion went on during

the drive.

We were gone from Steve's approximately 20

minutes. Jones wants me to call by his apt. at 10 Pii. tonight.

Present were trickman of the Baker.

sotel, Capt. Brogaon, It. Preston, Mckinney, Lumpkin Wiggins, Gannaway end Butler.

McKinney, Gannaway and Butler then went to Paul Jones apt. at 3901 Junius and

arrested Paul Jones.

re stayed at the apt. until about midnight when we brought

Jones to the lity fall for questioning.

Don Blaski is the man introduced to me as murray Humphries.

Jessie Snelton arrested by Wiggins and Lumpkin.

Cases filed on all except

Blaski. Chilton made a statement that he had notified lank Santerre before going

out

with Jones & 0o.

will make the States case stronger.

Property taken from Paul R. Jones turned in to property room.

Following

connections listed for future reference.

Charles Morrison

c/o Davidson Meat Co.

1831 E. Olympic

Los Angeles, Callf.

Harry Hornstein

Mayflower Hotel, Seattle, lash.

Room 2103 - 295 Macison Ave. N.Y.Üity

Paul Jones, 4406 Broadway, Chicago

Paul Jones, 324 S. Halsted St. Chicago

Western Dist.Co.

2710 Live Oak

J. A: Steadman & J. A. Valder

2115 Cadiz, Dallas

Monarch Lumber Co., Pempa, Tex.

W. Va. State Loage

Fraternal Order Police

Fraternal Order Police #38

Fraternal Urder Police Ürand Lodge

Mrs. Paul R. Jones

334 Potomac, Buffelo, N.Y.

HH 50529

DocId: 32241873 Page 78

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## Page 79

Social Secury 511-18-6049

407 Fi. Lth Pittsburg. Kan

Draft Board 4th & Pine

Pittsburg,

Kan

Apt. 505 Latino Americano

Mexico City,

Mex.

Al Holzman

3921 Lincoln Chicago

Marcus Lipsky

2842 Sheridan, Chicago

Clinton J. Chrisman

5048 Horse Shoe

Guernsly D 4 1741

HH 50529

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