TRANSCRIPT:REEL #5. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN, 29/30 JULY 1965.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/29/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Date: 02/12/01

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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY

RECORD NUMBER

RECORD SERIES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER

CIA

104-10534-10037

JFK

NOSENKO RECORDS

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

Released under the John

Masassination Recorda

Collection Act of 1992

i44 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 53216 Date:

06-14-2017

ORIGINATOR

FROM

TO

CIA

TITLE : TRANSCRIPT:REEL #5. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN,

29/30 JULY 1965.

DATE :

07/29/65

PAGES : 78

SUBJECTS : NOSENKO

DERYABIN

NBR

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER,

TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION : SECRET

RESTRICTIONS

CURRENT STATUS

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OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS :. JFK-M-24: F38. 2001.01.31.14:50:14:570084: NOSENKO NOT

BELIEVED RELEVANT

(NBR) . ATTACHED IS HSCA STAFF REVIEW

FORM DATED 9 MAY 1978. SEE F34 FOR KEY TO TRANSCRIPT.

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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TRANSCRIPT

NOSENKO Interrogation

29 July 1965

30 July

1965

Reel #5

JOB

81 - 00175R

BOX-2

- FOLDER 6

DESENSINIZED

por 001 70-17

RETIRED FILE

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TRANSCRIPT

NOSENKO INTORROGATION

REEL #5

29 JULY 1965-30 JULY 1965

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SECRET

Reel #5

29 July

1965

TRANSLATION

.....:)

A.

... ((If)) you had it.

And when we come to your education we will add it to what I have said

((about parents, background, etc.)) - your education in high school,

the Navy school, and the Institute of International Relations.

B. I do not know what you want to say.

A. I want to say that ((since)) you have found the ((in English)) excuse

of "taking into account my higher education," we will return to this

question; I just want to remind you so that you will not forget.

I will put this all together....

B. (*Please? or ?too bad?)

A. ...In time....

B. Of course, of course.

A. I would like you to find something better....

B. I cannot find anything better, because I did not decide the question

about myself; I do not know how the question was decided....

A. I am asking you, from the point of view

of a counterintelligence

officer, how do you ('revaluate?) ((this))?

B. And I do not intend to resolve the question of my life on ((to conform

with)) one date.

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A. Place yourself in the place of SHUBNYAKOV Or FEDOTOV, having in mind

the position of ((some)) IVANOV as if it were yours

—- what would be

your decision?

B. I do not know; if I were in his place, then it would be another thing

(XG) .

A. Because you told us at one time that you were a worthy counter-

intelligence officer.

But now you modestly say that you were such a simple, little....

B.

In 1953, in 1954....

A. ...A little case officer.

B. Now, why are you turning things around?

That is not right.

In 1953, 1954, 1955 and 1956, I really was nothing; I was only a case

officer.

If you are talking about 1954, you are right.

A. Yes.

B. Right; what do you want me to tell you -- that in 1954 they valued me

and liked me and respected me?

A. Oh, do you remember, in

the beginning, in

the beginning, when you

had just established contact with us, how ((you said)) you had worked

against the journalists, against military attaches, and that you had

recruited dozens of Americans, and so forth.

B. Not at all, not at all; you do not have to... you do not have to paint

things

that way....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time) )

SENDI

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A. I can simply remind you of that which you said earlier; nothing more.

B. You do not have to paint things that way.

A. Anyway let us think about where the bones lie hidden.

B. ((Long pause)) I do not know, I do not know.

What kind of bones?

Where'?

I do not know.

((Long pause)) I do not know.

What kind of bones?

I do not know anything.

I never said that I was an ideal and outstanding worker.

I worked as I could and as I had to.

I never said that I had recruited dozens.

If I participated, I participated.

I have told how they treated me.

A. As if you were the best man, they sent you to Geneva... as the best

counterintelligence officer.

B. How "as the best"?

In 1962, it was necessary for them to send not a senior case officer,

nor a case officer, but someone higher.

A. Well, that you were bigger does not fit - I do not see it.

You understand -- if you somewhere somewhat....

B. ((Interrupts)) You know, this will not kill me, because I already have

heard this 482 ((times)) -- I have heard that I was not a good employee

that I am nothing.

I have heard this more than once; please continue in the same spirit.

A. I do not think that anyone told you that you are nothing.

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B. Well, they did not say "nothing" - that is right; it would be rude....

It is right that I have exaggerted; absolutely right.

How many times has it been said, "Well, what kind offa worker were you?

What kind?"

A. We still do not have the KGB here - we have not come to that yet.

B.

Right, right; yes - you have not come to that but... somewhat...

something I did not expect from American intelligence or counterintelli-

gence.

A .

What, for example?

B. Let us not talk about it - this is a

stage that already has been

passed; it is behind.

A.

Well, I am interested in knowing.

B. You know everything very well.

You know every letter, every stage; you know everything

A. If I knew everything, then we would not have to be talking.

B. No, I say, what was, was; you know.

A. I do not know what you have in mind; I do not think that we did

anything unusual; I do not think there was anything out of the

ordinary; it was just everyday life.

B. That is not life; it was a sad existence.

A. Well, let us see, let us talk about it - whose fault is it?

B. Well, how is it my fault?

Tell me why it is my fault; tell me why I am doing time, tell me why

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I am doing time.

You tell me, "We do not believe you" ((but)) this is not a reason for

• a man to do time.

A. Do not look for the entire fault in yourself; I am not blaming only you..

B. No, I understand - that over there ((the KGB))....

A. Yes, "over there"....

B.

...Excuse me, they are crapping on me.....

A. ...Yes, "over there", "over there".

B.

I understand that, over

there, they.

A. What -- "over there"?

B.

Well... that they - through the agent network and through trusted

persons, etc. -- they are "giving it to"me.

I know how it is done, how a man can be turned into nothing, into

nothing!

I know this.

Whether you want it or not, there is something coming from over there;

I know about this very well.

A. We will talk about what is coming ((from over there)) and what is not

coming.

Of course, you are interested in knowing what is coming; but I would

like to know what you think is going on there.

B. What do I think?

What do I think?

I think, I know, that, of course, a decision already has been made

about me, and they have sentenced me

to death;

and some kind

of case

has been opened against me, just as a case was opened against GOLITSYN,

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as I heard.

Measures are taken and the relatives are put under control.

A .

But why control them?

B. Well, perhaps a letter might go through.

A. Well, anyway ((it is said that)) the KGB has changed; they

and likeable....

are so good

B. Who told you that.

A.

That is what they write.

B. "They

write"....

A. They simply are so kind that they are kissing the Soviet people's asses.

B.

Oh, yes.

A. Well, if they are not so good, in your opinion, then....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

...What is holding you back from opening your heart and forgetting your

past?

They ((the KGB)) are entirely to blame, etc.;. why do you not make up

your mind to say, "Screw them", and begin from the very beginning and

tell the truth.

B. I am telling you only the truth; if there were some small....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. Well, I have been talking with you for 3 days, and I do not see any

SEGRET

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confirmation of what you call the truth.

B. Iran telling you only the truth, absolutely.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. Well, you are forgetting that we have just finished talking for the

last hour about the anketa, and you could not answer the simplest things.

B. I am telling you what I remember.

A. One cannot believe that you worked there; I to not know what keeps you

from talking sense, as they

say.

B.

Well, why do you say that?

A. ((Pause)) Well, one more question - what do you know about the

Personnel record sheet (lichnyy listok po uchetu kadrov).

B. What Personnel record sheet?

A. What is the Personnel record sheet?

What kind of document is it?

B. I do not know; I do not know the Personnel record sheet, I do not know.

A. Well, on every Party member and every Komsomol member working in the

organs of the MVD or in government work, or even a non-Party member

having some higher education or qualifications and on whom there is a

personnel file in the KGB or the Council of Ministers or the CC CPSU

and so forth... the CPSU Central Committee issues this Personnel record

sheet; it is some sort of anketa.

B. I do not know it.

A. It is completed by everyone.

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B. I never completed it; I do not know what it is; I do not know.

A. It is not very important to the MVD, but - in accordance with a CC CPSU

decision - every employee fills it out.

B. I do not know, I do not know

A. It represents a true picture of the educated employees.

B. What goes into it?

A. There is the usual information in it, but I do not want to explain

what there is.

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. It begins with the questions - surname, first name, patronymic; date

and place of birth; social background; duration of Party membership;

Party identification card number.

This sheet is, as they say, a Party-Komsomol record; it is completed

by each employee; it is included in the Personnel file before the

anketa.

B. I absolutely do not remember this sheet or its completion, absolutely.

A. This, again, is one of the proofs that forces the conclusion that....

B. Honest, I absolutely do not remember this sheet or its completion inithe

Personal

files into which I looked.

I looked

into Personnel

files.

Because in 1962, 1963, we hired for the Third Section, restaurants and

hotels, a large number

of

former KGB employees as non-staffers; only

former employees.

And I do not remember this ((sheet)) .

SEANT

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A. You probably saw their fersonnel files, because -- when a man is

released - his file is sent to the Archives; then anyone can take the

file if he wants to make use of this employee.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

B. I absolutely do not remember this sheet.

A. How do you explain that you do not remember your Party card number?

B. I do not remember it, I do not remember.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

Look -- hear me out, please; you asked me why I do not remember it --

I will tell you: you pay your dues; you go to a meeting

and you know

you have to show your card, so you take it with you; I did not have to

give the number; I take it along; you keep it in the safe.....

A. I am not asking because anyone wants to know this number; but there

is a procedure in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union -- every

member öf the Party is obliged to know the number of his Party card.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

It is not written ((in the Regulations)), but there is a procedure and

the Party Secretary always asks.

A. I do not want to exaggerate, but I simply want to say that the

Secretary always asks when a man pays his dues -- particularly new

members, if they remember the number of their Party card.

B.

Well, they could ask; absolutely right.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. It is, as they say, in the blood stream

of every Party member --

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except, of course, some stupid person who does not have any memory at

all; he does not remember - but all the rest remember.

B. ((In English)) Thank you very much.

A. Well, I did not have ((you)) in mind....

B.

No, no, no, I understand, I understand.

A. But it is logical to remember.

I was a member of the Party but long ago.

B. And do you remember the number?

A. I remember the number quite well; it has stayed in my memory, and I

still remember it.

I do not recall my Komsomol card number.

I do not know whether I knew it well; probably I did.

But I remember my Party card number -- tand that was more than 20 years

ago.

B. Look -- just a minute; there is another number - every employee has

a serial number (lichnyy nomer); it is a metal plate.

You keep it in the safe.

This number is indicated in the identification card which you carry

with you every day, day and night.

I do not remember it, but I know it had four digits:

"Yeo"', and then

the number.

A. Of course, no one ever asked you to remember the number of your

identification card.

B. No, this is not the identification card number; this is a serial number.

A. What kind of a serial number?

For what purpose is it?

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B. It is for use in case of war, if you should die.

A. When did they introduce this serial number?

B. I do not remember; I do not remember.

A. Well, you see, you contradict yourself - on one hand, you try to

prove that you were there, that you worked, but you cannot answer the

simplest question about the number, and you do not know it.

Well, very well; let us take this line -- how many Party cards have you

had altogether?

B. A candidate membership card in 1956;

when I was accepted in

membership card; that is all.

1957, a

A. When was the Party card exchange?

B. That was before I was accepted, in 1955 or 1954.

A. At that time, did you receive a new Party card?

B. Well, this was before my time.

In 1956, I received a candidate membership card and in 1957, a member-

ship card; it was before my acceptance into the Party, in 1955 or 1954.

A. Were there any other circumstances under which you exchanged....?

B. The card?

No.

A. Where did you leave your card when you left?

B. In the safe... no, no; I lied - I left it with the Secretary of the

Party organization.

A. What - does every one have to turn them in when going abroad?

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B. Not only when going abroad.

You

see, I went abroad on TDY; I knew that I would be gone a month or

two; the rule was to give it to the Secretary, and I left. it with the

Secretary.

I entrust the receipt of pay for February and March to an employee --

SHINGAREV -- to take out the dues, and pay the loan cashier;

the rest

of

it - to my wife.

And the Party card goes to the Secretary.

If you go on a trip, and you know that you will be gone for 15 days and

you will be paid in the meantime, you leave the money and also the

Party card with the Secretary.

A. Well, alright (XG) .

We will stop for today; we will continue our talk another time.

I want to say once more - think about what

we

have been

discussing.

B. (XG)

End of 29 July 1965 Session.

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30 July 1965 Session

A. Well, what is new today?

B. The old day has passed; a new day - the 483rd -- has begun.

A.

483rd?

B. 483rd.

May I have a cigarette:

A. You still have not forgotten how to count the days?

B. I count on my fingers;

besides that,

I take threads from my blanket and

make numbers.

For instance, the first of July; the next day is the second of July;

From the preceding number, I make

a new number every day;

that

is how

I count.

A. What other means of counting do you have?

You can lose yourself that way.

B.

No; there is a whole number of ways.

I save every day, every month.

The guard detail changes every Friday - that is exactly a week; new

guards come.

I am telling you -- I do not count: one, two, etc.

When I get to 365, it makes a year, and I begin again.

When I get to 400 -- it was on the 8th of May - and I began again,

because on the 8th of May it was exactly 400 days.

And, besides that, there are these numbers that I make from the threads.

A. But do you not make any other marks?

B. No; well, I did one time - I put scratches on the door: the lst of

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December, etc....

1/65 equals 272 days; and then, there was another date: 3/4/65 -- it

equals 65 days.

That is how.

A .

Well, perhaps we should return to our discussion about the Komsomol.

I do not think that we have covered everything;

we did not agree with

each other everywhere.

Do you still insist that you were Secretary of the Komsomol organization

of the Second Chief Division?

Tell me, as a friend to friend,

where you were.

B. What would I get out of it ((to tell lies))?

Neither a minus, nor a plus.

A. I would not get anything out of it.

B. No, me, not you -- I am talking about myself, about my biography, my

activities; this would give me neither a plus, nor a minus.

A. You know, we have spoken about the Komsomol - we have spoken about

this matter twice; and I want to talk about this subject for the last

time.

The Komsomol does not operate the way you described it.

If a person were Secretary of a Komsomol organization, he would know

more than the rank-and-file Komsomol member; ((but)) I am not asking

to answer as a Secretary of a ((Komsomol)) Committee.

B. I do not remember the name of the Committee Secretary.

A. Well, let us say, the Secretary of a Komsomol organization in the most

important directorate in the MVD -- in counterintelligence, or the

Second Directorate, as you want to call it -- if

he were the Secretary,

as you say, for approximately a year, he would have had some kind of

contact with the Secretary of the ((Komsomol)) Committee of the MVD,

simply because of his Komsomol work.

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B. I tell you contact is maintained with the Second Directorate by KOZMIN

and SOKOLOV -- those two men.

A. During the time you were Secretary of the Komsomol organization, how

many Komsomol conferences were held in the MVD?

There probably were at least one during the year.

B. There was, there was, there was... because I....

A. You probably selected delegates from your Komsomol organization, and

you yourself as Secretary should have attended it.

B. Of course, of course.

A. Well, tell me about this conference; you probably saw the Secretary and

gave him documents on those whom you had selected to be delegates to

this conference, and so forth; a great deal of preparatory work had to

be carried out.

B. I do not remember; I do not even remember what was discussed at the

conferences; of course, there were conferences or meetings of the aktiv,:

something…..

A. Well, I am not asking what was discussed; I am just asking about the

procedure.

You say you do not remember the name of the Secretary of the MVD

Komsomol Committee; in my opinion, you should know; if you were the

Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate

you had to know.

B. I do not know; why do not I know?

Because, after all, he was not a star in the sky.

I simply fulfilled social obligation; I just had to....

A. No one said that he was

and you had to know him.

a star in the sky, but you were the Secretary,

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B. I do not remember his name; I do not remember.

A. For this reason alone, it is difficult for me to believe that you were

a Secretary.

Very

well, I will help you; we will begin with this -- what important

event -- which you could

in no way forget or overlook -- took place in

the Komsomol in 1953-1954 at the time you were Secretary?

B.

I do not remember.

A. I ask you again; if you were the Secretary, you must remember this

great event.

B.

I do not remember it.

A. Well, I will remind you about this great event - it was just at the

time when you were Secretary, and it was quite important - it was the

Moscow City Komsomol Conference in February 1954, when delegates were

elected from all Komsomol organizations, including the MiD or the KGB,

whatever you want to call it; and you, of course, as a Secretary had

to take an active part in it -- to be at the aktiv meetings of the NVD

Komsomol, to

select candidates, and perhaps even to make a speech.

Even

if you did not deliver a speech at least you had to be there and

to vote, etc.

B. I do not remember.

A. This was your last Komsomol position while you were working, in the

MVD or anywhere else, and I think you should remember it.

Well, as you told me last time, a Komsomol member can be any person

of

what age?

B. I will tell you right now - from the age of 14 they can be taken into

the Komsomol.

A. And to the age of?...

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B. To the age of 27.

A. Are you sure of this?

B. Yes.

A. Well, you can imagine that a Secretary must know.

B. Until the age of 27.

A. 27?

((Pause)) I will read you a paragraph from the Komsomol Regulations

for 1949.

B.

Why 19492

This

was

in 1953-1954.... 1949.

hat

A. Just before this, I asked you want important event took place in

March 1954.

B. I do not remember this.

A. There was a Komsomol Congress....

B. There were such... it was not the only one.

A.

...At which new regulations were adopted.

It was not the only one, but it was the next one after 1949, the next

one.

From 1949 until this Congress, they lived according to these regulations

but from 1954 they began to live differently.

None of the regulations before 1949, after 1949, or after 1954 said

anything about "up to 27 years of age".

From Komsomol'skaya Pravda, 7 April 1949:

"Anyone from the age

to 26 can be a member of the VLKSM...."

Another Congress took place, 30 March 1954: "Anyone from the age of 14

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to 26 can be a member of the VLKSM...." -- this was in 1954.

Further, here are other Regulations, published in Moscow in 1958:

"Anyone from the age of 15 to 28 can be a member of the VLKSM...."

this was when they changed the Regulations.

Never in the history of the Komsomol, beginning in 1919, have the

Regulations anywhere said anything about "up to 27 years of age"; it

always was "up to 26" and then they changed it to "up to 28".

B. (3G) I left for reason of age in 1956. (54?)

A. I do not want to argue.

You could have left for reason of age when you were 27 years old; I

do not at all deny this - I only am reminding you that yesterday you

insisted that the Regulations say "up to 27, and that is all"

I did not argue with you then; I simply told you that it never was "up

to 27"; it was "up to 26".

And now... I do not know what reason you had, etc.; I have only one

question - did they make some sort of exception for you?

B. They did not make-any kind of exception for me.

A. Then what is the matter?

A secretary has to know - right?

What do you think -- the Secretary of the Komsomol Organization of the

Second Chief Directorate; all of Soviet counterintelligence was working

there, and he does not know that, at the time when he was Secretary,

a Komsomol Congress took place, and new Regulations were adopted?

B. I do not remember.

A. It was a big event; a Congress does not take place every year.

By the way, how often are Komsomol Congresses held?

B. I do not remember.

A. Well, just between us, do you think there is basis for me to believe

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that you were a Secretary?'

B. I cannot tell you anything more about this; I simply do not remember.

A. "I do not remember" - this is not the answer of a counterintelligence

officer; one can answer "I do not remember" to all questions.

B. A counterintelligence officer is not God.

He is just like any other man -- IVANOV, PETROV, SIDOROV -- working in

shop or somewhere else; the only difference is that he is working in

counterintelligence, and the other, in a shop.

A. You know,

if you were a Secretary of the Komsomol organization of a

crutch factory, I would not ask you such questions, because the

Secretary of the Komsomol organization of a crutch factory could forget

but an employee of counterintelligence, of the Second Chief Directorate,

could not forget this, not because he was Secretary or a Komsomol

member, but because this is the daily work of a counterintelligence

officer: to know all of the Regulations, because he is working with

people; he recruits, he develops, he arrests, etc.; he has business with

the Komsomol and with the Party every day.

B. Right.

A. Well, he comes in contact with the Regulations and with other documents

and instructions -- this is why I told you, "This is not the answer

of a counterintelligence officer"; he should know more than a simple

kolkhoz worker or a member of a feather shop.

B. Ah, ah. ...

A. The same thing goes for the matter of membership dues.

On what basis did you say, "Two percent, and that is all"?

B. Just as I remember it.

I am telling you and answering you just as I remember.

QUET

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A. Let us talk as friend to friend; today you are saying, "Just as I

remember it"; yesterday you did not say, "Just as I remember

it";

yesterday you said, "I know ((it was)) two percent exactly".

B. I said, "Two percent for the highest paid"; there was no one who paid

20 kopecks.

A. This is not true; there never was a single scale.

The Komsomol ((member)) always pays the same as the Party, with the

exception that in the latest new komsomol Regulations,

a new scale is

provided.

I will read it to you now.

B. This, again, is since

1958.

In 1958, I was not in the Komsomol; I was nowhere.

A. Before this, the scale was not written up in the Komsomol Regulations;

they paid the same way they paid

in the Party - the same percentage,

regardless of how much ((pay)) they received, the same percentage, but

they did not "cut their hair with the same comb" ((i.e., the percentages.

varied within the scale, although the scales were the same for both

Komsomol and Party)).

B. Do you have the pre-1958 ((Komsomol)) Regulations?

Do you have the Regulations for 1954?

A. A scale is written out there.

B. No scale was written out there.

Without a scale, how much do they take?

A. Only the entrance dues are written up there.

What is the difference between entrance and membership dues?

Explain it to me.

B. The very same amount; absolutely the same amount for both entrance and

LADE

LON

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membership dues.

The entrance ((dues)) - these are the first dues ((paid)); you pay

this when you enter ((the organization)).

A. ((Reads:)) "The financial resources of the Komsomol consist of member-

ship dues and other income.

A Komsomol member who is at the same time a candidate Party member is

excused from payment of the dues...."

B.

They pay to the Party.

A. ((Continues to read:)) "...Entrance dues in the amount of

two

percent

are required of each person upon entrance into the VLKSM..."

B.

so....

A. "...Of his monthly pay."

B. Two percent from the others also.

A. ((In English)) No, no.

B. Two percent a month... honestly... one minute....

Why entrance dues?

As soon as I was accepted in the Komsomol, my first dues -- not for

the month, but for entrance - was two percent, just as I would pay per

month.

A. Now I will show you were the scale is written.

B. The scale?

two percent.

Maybe, in the new ((Regulations)), but I am telling you — two percent,

A. I do not deny that the entrance dues was two percent.

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B. And the monthly, the monthly....

A. Not true, not true.

B. And the monthly, two percent.

But that is the new, the New Regulations, new currency....

A. New currency.

In the old Regulations, they took ((dues)) the

same as for Party members

B. This is new currency; before that, they paid two percent - the same as

for the entrance dues; please believe me.

A. Why are you declaring something that is untrue.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

Do you want me to find the booklet ((Regulations)) and bring it to you?

B. No; the entrance dues were the same as the monthly dues -- two percent

of the pay.

A. What are entrance dues?

The first dues you pay upon entering the Komsomol.

You pay it once; the usual you pay every month.

A. There were special instruction of the CC VLKSM on the collection of

membership dues, which were sent to all Komsomol organizations, and

until the most

recent Regulations the scale was not given, except the

entrance

dues -- two

percent.

Here, in one ((set of)) Regulations, it is written: "Entrance dues are

taken upon entrance into the Komsomol - two percent of the monthly

salary.

From Komsomol members

who do not receive a monthly salary, entrance dues

are taken in accordance with the instructions of the CC VLKSM."

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B.

20 kopecks; 20 kopecks, as for military personnel.

A. (IG) .

B. Just as the entrance dues, the membership dues -- two percent.

A. I even would not want to insist on ((I should not have to press)) this

question, becuase the Secretary of a Komsomol organization should know

this

as he knows his five fingers.

Of course, he could forget something, but it

is nonsense to insist upon

"27 years of age" and some other things ((such as this)).

You know that even the lowest Komsomol member knows such things.

((Pause)) Let us go back and talk further about the Komsomol.

How and where were you actually removed from the Komsomol rolls before

you were enrolled in the Konsomol in the MVD?

B. I did not get off the Komsomol rolls anywhere, because I was on leave;

I was on the rolls of the Komsomol organization of the MRP, in Sovetsk.

A. What was the Komsomol organization of the MRP in the city of Sovetsk

called?

B.

I told you that I do not remember exactly, but it should have been

called the primary Komsomol organization of such-and-such a military

unit.

A. To whom was the organization subordinate?

((Pause)) Perhaps I should give you some leading questions so that you

can better remember.

Let us start with this

-- you came to the Baltic area

or Sovetsk; as

you said before, when did you get there?

B. 1952, Summer 1952.

A.

Summer 1952; what month?

QCODI

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B. About August.

A. About August.

B. Yes.

A. And to what kind of work were you assigned right away?

B. I was assigned as a senior translator-interpreter of the MRP.

A. Senior translator-interpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point.

B. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

A. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

And what precisely was the Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet called?

B. It was called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

A. It could not have been called that.

Please call things by their own names.

What was it called?

It could not have been called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet;

It was not called that.

It could have' been called that among the intelligence officers there.

B. No, well, military unit, official, the military unit.

A. Well, what is the official name?

B. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; the Chief of Intelligence of the

Fourth Navy Fleet; the Chief of Intelligence of the Seventh Navy Fleet.

A. What was the Directorate in Moscow called?

B. GRU VMF.

SECRET

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A. What does GRU mean?

B. Chief Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of the Navy.

A. Ministry of the Navy.

What is Intelligence called in the Fleet?

It could not be called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; there is

another name.

B. Of the Fourth Navy Fleet; nothing else - not the ministry, nothing:

A. Well, for example, imagine yourself in Intelligence of the Fifth Navy

Fleet, and you are writing a request or letter to the Chief of the

Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; what is his title?

He has a certain position.

B. Position?

Chief of Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, Captain Ist Rank or

Captain 2nd Rank such-and-such, and you give his position.

A. Be more precise.

B. This is the most precise way.

officially, if you are corresponding him through open channels, you

address him as Chief of Military Unit such-and-such; this, by means of

open channels.

A. We are not talking about the military unit.

For what does the military unit have a number?

Well, this is for secrecy.

A. No; well, for what other reason?

((Pause)) Well, we will return to this; how is the Chief of Intelligenc

addressed?

SEBRET

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B. The Chief of Intelligence - that is what he was called.

A. You said that you arrived in August 1952; on orders to whom?

B. To Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

A. To whom did you report when you arrived there?

B. I arrived at Baltiysk; I found the military unit - that is, Intelligenc

of the Fourth Navy Fleet; I presented my orders.

A. Well, how did you get there?

How did you find it?

Someone probably told you how to get there.

B. Well, I asked people where the military unit was; it is a closed zone

there were patrols:

A. Well, you did not ask on the street - right?

B. Where else?

I was looking for Military Unit such-and-such.

I was going to the Headquarters of the Fleet in Baltiysk.

I arrived at Baltiysk; there was the Commandant's Office; there I asked

where Military Unit such-and-such was.

A. Just a minute; at the beginning, I asked you how you found the place;

you answered that you asked, etc.

Now, where did you arrive?

When you arrived in the city, where was the first place you went?

B. I went to the Commandant's Office.

A. First, you went to the Commandant's Office.

B. You know, you ask such questions which I answer according to how it is

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supposed to be; but, how it was, I do not remember; how it was, how I

got there, whom I asked...

First of all, I arrived in Kaliningrad; the train goes to Kaliningrad

from Moscow.

A. Well, let us dwell on this a little - then, you arrived from Moscow

not in Baltiysk, but....

B. Kaliningrad; in Kaliningrad, I transferred.

A. Let us begin from the beginning; alright?

You arrived in Kaliningrad, not in Baltiysk.

For a counterintelligence officer, it is also important where he arrived-

either he arrived in Baltiysk or Kaliningrad.

There are two different cities; right?

B. Right.

The sact is that a a it every Paster the to adits ina

there.

A. Then, practically, you could not have arrived in Baltiysk...

B.

By train?

No, no.

A. Did you arrived in Kaliningrad?

((In English)) Alright.

B. Oh, you see how you judge.

A. Well, how else can I?

B. I arrived at the city of my designation, the

city of Baltiysk,

orders to Intelligence of the Fourth Fleet.

And how did I travel there - this....

SECRET

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A. Listen, dear fellow, I do not want to ask you a second question; I can

tell you -- you could not have arrived in Baltiysk, period.

Tell me why.

B. Because the train does not go there, on that spot.

A. Then why do you have to wait until I tell you that you did not arrive

in Baltiysk, but in Kaliningrad:

B.

I arrived at Baltiysk; Kaliningrad is a transfer point.

Very well, I have arrived in the Far East... just a minute... in the

Far East, I made a stop at Khabarovsk, then

at Komsomolsk-na-Amur, then

I made another stop

in

Pivan'; finally, via Sikhote-Alin', we get to

Pyatisotka.

A. One minute... about Sikhote-Alin' - we will return to this question.

B. Well, alright; you ask me questions, and I am answering you; do you

want to hear my answers (XG) you are knocking me down.

A. I am not knocking you down at all.

Is it logical or not to

ask a man, if the train does not arrive

at

Baltiysk, but arrives at Kaliningrad.

Very well; you arrived in Kaliningrad.

How did you get to Baltiysk?

Did you go on foot of by car?

B. Well, I got there by car by hitch-hiking.

I asked how to get to Baltiysk, how to get to Baltiysk.

A. Alright, you arrived.

B. I do not know who I asked, but somewhere I asked how I could get to

the headquarters in Baltiysk.

A. Well, there you are - you answered me; you asked someone in the station.

SECRET,

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B. You asked me whom I asked; and I said I do not know.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. Maybe you asked a passerby, or perhaps you asked at the Commandant's

Office in Kaliningrad.

Who knows?

You should know better.

Of course, when you left Moscow, they must have told you where the

intelligence headquarters were situated.

B.

Baltiysk; I knew that I had to get to Baltiysk.

I had to take the train to kaliningrad, and then from there it was

only several kilometers to Baltiysk.

A. Then, they must have explained to you that you would arrive at

Kaliningrad, and then you would have to go to Baltiysk where the

headquarters are;

and they were sure that you would get there.

B. Well, I could talk, and I had an outline.

A.

This is what I am talking about.

You place me in a difficult position, also, when you say, "Well, I

arrived in Baltiysk."

B. Right; I did not have to go to Kaliningrad, but to Baltiysk; and I

got to Baltiysk.

A. If a person is going there by train, he has to stop before getting to

Baltiysk.

spacistere

A. If a person is going there by train, he has to stop

, before getting to

Baltiysk.

B. In Kaliningrad, in Kaliningrad.

SECRET

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A. Are you sure of that?

B. Yep; I made a stop in Kaliningrad.

A. And a train does not go to Baltiysk?

B. A train does not go to Baltiysk.

A. Does not go there; we, the two of us, will remember this.

From Kaliningrad to Baltiysk - you got there by hitchhiking.

To whom did you turn when you arrived at the Headquarters of the Baltic

Fleet?

How did you find the Intelligence Headquarters?

B. I was not at the Headquarters of the Baltic Fleet, the Headquarters of

the Fourth Baltic Fleet.

I got to Baltiysk, found the First Commandant's Office, and asked how

I could get to Military Unit such-and-such; I was told on what street

it was: After all, it is not a large town.

A. Well, what was the name of the street?

B. I do not remember, I absolutely do not remember.

A. How many months were you on duty with Intelligence of the fourth Nayy

Fleet?

B. Four months; somewhat over four months -- until the end of December.

A.

Were you in Baltiysk all the time?

B. No, in Sovetsk; the MRP was in Sovetsk, not in Baltiysk.

A. Then, what was at Baltiysk, the Headquarters?

B. The Headquarters of the whole Fourth Navy Fleet, including Intelligence

TECRET

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of the Fourth Navy Fleet was at Baltiysk.

The main base and Headquarters of the Fourth Navy Fleet was in Baltiysk.

A. Well, how long were you in Baltiysk when you arrived there and reported

in; how much time did you spend there until you left for the MRP?

B. Well, perhaps it took an hour while they arranged for transportation;

the auto took me to the MRP; this is several kilometers away - from

Baltiysk to Sovetsk.

A. Approximately how many kilometers?

B. Well, look; Baltiysk is on a spit, at the center of the spit.

You come down from the spit to the mainland, where Sovetsk is located.

A. Well, is it about 10-20 kilometers away?

B. No, its about 6 or 8 kilometers away; 10, not more.

A. You are sure that you worked in Sovetsk?

B. Yes; I know that I worked in Sovetsk, I worked in Sovetsk.

A. Maybe you have confused this with another city.

• B. No, no.

A. Because I do not want you to say to me again later that you made some

kind of an error.

B. Well, let us take a look at the map;

I am not sure of anything right

now; I am not sure of anything.

Why?

Because you are twisting me around.

You are twisting everything around; you are twisting everything around.

SEGRST

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A. I am not twisting anything around.

B. Give me a map

of the Soviet Union, and I will show you -- here, here

is Baltiysk; here, here is Sovetsk; and this is the place where I was.

A. Well, I will show you

a map right now.

B. Very well; I will point out right away where I was.

A. Here is Volume 19 of the Bol'shaya Sovetskaya Entsiklopediya; this

volume was approved for publication, 16 June 1953, approximately one

year after you were there.

B. Just a minute... the spit, Baltiysk... and Primorsk, not Sovetsk.

Here it is - Primor'ye, Primorsk... just a minute.... Primorsk, Primorsl

A. Just a minute.

B. This is Sovetsk.

A. Then, why - in the past and today - have you insisted on Sovetsk?

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

B.

Why I said Sovetsk, I do not know -- Primorsk.

A. Answer me - why did you say Sovetsk?

B. Why did I say

So?

In my memory, Sovetsk... the city of Primorsk.

A. Well, what do you think - a man who has worked in the GRU, in

Intelligence, went to the Baltic Fleet, to Intelligence of the Fourth

Navy Fleet, worked there for several months... and confused everything

(("'confused God's gift with scrambled eggs")).

SECHEX

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B. Primorsk, Primorsk, Primorsk, Primorsk; why did I say Sovetsk?

A. Do you know where Sovetsks is?

B. I do not know; Primorsk is at the beginning of the spit.

A. Well, I think you should answer my question - where is Sovetsk?

For two years you have always said Sovetsk, Sovetsk.

B. Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; Primorsk.

A. Well, one more question -- from where did you get "Primorskiy Kray'?

B. Well, this is a kray by the sea, by the sea - Primorskiy Kray; it is

by the sea -- Primorskiy Kray.

A. How was it, as you told me the last time, that you received letters

addressed to you?

B. Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; well, it means, the city... of Primorsk,

primorskiy Kray... something....

A. The last time, I intentionally asked why Kaliningrad was called

Kaliningrad; I asked and answered the question.

The question I asked, every schoolboy knows -- there is no Primorskiy

Kray there and there never was.

And then, an intelligence officer - and besides that, a counterin-

telligence officer -- a man who has graduated from the Institute of

International Relations, cannot...

B.

Well, alright; why are you always pushing, pushing, pushing me on this

I do not remember.

Well, I mixed it up... well, Primorsk....

I told you right away, that is the place.

What can I do?

SECK T

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A.

Well, I do not understand how a man who has always lived in the Soviet

Union, in Moscow, and has -- as I mentioned - all of your merits --

on the basis of which you should know - does not know where he was and

how he could receive letters in the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray....

B. Primorsk, Primorsk.

A .

..When he did not work in Sovetsk, and there never was a Primorskiy Kray

((A gives B Volume 19 of the Bol'shaya Sovetskaya Entsiklopediya and

asks him to read from page 425, on Kaliningrad.))

B. ((Reads:)) "Kaliningrad, (until 1946, Konigsberg) -- a

city, capital

of Kaliningrad Oblast RSFSR.... Kaliningrad became a part of the USSR

on the basis of the Berlin Conference of 1945.... On 4 July 1946,

the

city was given the name of M. I. KALININ, one of the leaders

of the

Communist Party in the Soviet state.".

A. KALININ, Kaliningrad;

well?

B. Kaliningrad.

A. Kaliningrad; right?

B. Right.

A. Now, read about kaliningrad Oblast.

B.

( (Reads:)) "Kaliningrad Oblast -- an oblast of the RSESR.

Established, Y April 1946, on the ancestral lands of the true Baltic

Slavs...."

A. That is enough; we do not need any more; it is only general information.

B. Make any conclusions you wish.

I was in the place which I showed you

- Primorsk; why I said Sovetsk,

SIESET

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primorskiy Kray, I do not know.

A. Do you know how many settlements and tans called Primorsk there

in the Soviet Union?

B. I do not know.

A. You do not know?

B. No.

A. I have counted them.

B. Well?

A. There are more than 70 in the Soviet Union; which Primorsk were you in?

B. That which... that, that which, where the MRP of the Fourth Fleet was...

not far from Baltiysk.

I can show you were it is right away.

A. You told me that you were in that Primorsk and in that Sovetsk which is

located in Primorskiy Kray; now I do not understand, because there is no

Primorskiy Kray.

B. Right.

I told you, the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; why, I do not know.

I have in mind this Primorsk, here; that is all.

A. Let us talk logically.

Every

Soviet man - we will not mention counterintelligence, higher

education, etc. - who has

graduated from high

school probably will

know

that

there

never

was a Primorskiy Kray in

the West and that

Kaliningrad Oblast was formed from Konigsberg; and

everyone knows

why,

and in whose honor it was named.

I just want

to understand - are you playing around with me, or do you

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really not know and not know even the ABCs?

B. Why should I play around with you when you have enough documents and

you always can find out and check it?

Why should I play around?

What a strange question that is!

A. I think that perhaps I made a great error in giving you the documents --

maybe we could have talked without them -- because last time you said

the same thing; you denied everything and insisted..

B. Well, what can I do, if it was in my memory

-- as I said - Sovetsk

Primorskiy Kray.

I have in mind the Primorsk in which the MRP was located.

A. Well, in what other cities were you while you were serving there?

B.

((Pause)) I was in Baltiysk.

A. Others.

B. Kaliningrad; that is all.

A .

How many times were you in kaliningrad, before your permanent assignment

there?

B. One time; I flew in, in 1945; it was not Kaliningrad at that time - it

was Konigsberg.

A. Konigsberg; when you worked in Baltiysk, how often did you visit

Kaliningrad?

B. Well, perhaps I went there one time.

A. How much time did you spend in Baltiysk itself?

Or how often were you there?

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B. I was in Baltiysk when I arrived there for the first time; and aside

from that I went over twice to see Commander-in-Chief GOLOVKO; that is

all!

A. And after that, where were you all the time?

B. I was in Primorsk all the time, at the MRP.

A. Well, tell me - what is primorsk; how big is the town?

B. It is an absolutely wrecked, absolutely wrecked town.

It is

a very small, small town.

It was a small settlement (naselennyy punkt); its people - I have in

mind Germans - were fishermen.

A. Explain to me why, the last time, you argued with me --

"What are you

telling me?

I received letters

at the city of Sovetsk,

Primorskiy

Kray! "

B. Well, look -- in my memory, I have "the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy

Kray"; that is all.

Why?

A. Well, we will return to this letter.

Like the rest of the military personnel, you received letters at the

military unit; how were the letters addressed to you by your friends,

relatives, parents?

B. In different ways, to the Far East and here.

A. Well, how did they address them... well, "here ((Sovetsk))"?

Well, "here" - according to my memory,

as I told you in my memory...

I do not remember.

My memory retains "City of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray, Military Unit

such-and-such, ((B's full name))" -- well, I made a mistake here; I am

SEGRET

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telling you I had Primorsk in mind.

A. Why did you say?...

B. I do not know, because I do not remember; I remember it as I said.

A. You do not remember which military unit?

B. I do not remember.

A. You yourself told me that you made an error; you do not....

в.

Well, why?

Because I immediately showed you that place; I had in mind "City of

Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray" -- the city of Primorsk.

A. There are many cities

on the map, and you can point out a lot of things.

I told you that, in the Soviet Union, there are more than 70 places

named Primorsk.

((In English)) You see,

there is a Primorsk on the Baltic, one near Arkhangelsk, one near

Mirmansk, one on the Black Sea, one on the Kzov Sea, one on the Caspian

Sea, one on the Pacific Ocean... there are Primorsks everywhere near

the sea.

B. In 1952, there was one Headquarters of the Fourth Navy Fleet, which was

in one city, in Baltiysk; and the MRP, which was subordinate to

Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, also was only one and was in

Primorsk....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. You are smart enough to make up a premise and imagine how it was -- no

one can take this away from you.

((Pause)) Well, give me one example when you received a letter, let us

say, in Primorsk, and so forth - a letter from your parents or your

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girl friend; how did they address the letter to you?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. What address did you give them?'

B. City, then military unit; it is possible to write just "Military Unit

so-and-so", then to so-and-so.

A. Well, we have come to the question that I wanted

to ask you - the

Far East.

B. And the same goes for Sovetskaya Gavan' -- "Sovetskaya Gavan', or just

"military Unit 90176".

A. There is a certain rule - there is no "either... or".

((Which was it --)) Both the city and the military unit were indicated,

or only the military unit without the city?

B. I received letters addressed both to the city and the military unit, and

simply to the military unit.

A. And what regulations were in force?

B. During the war, during the war....

A. We are not talking about war time, but....

B. Oh, no....

A.

We are talking about 1952, when you were in the Baltic area.

If you want to talk about the war, we can go back to the war at anoter

time, and I am sure you will not be able to answer me if we talk about

the war.

B. I did not take part ((in the war)); I do not know what kind of a questio!

you would put to me.

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A. Now you are saying that you did not take part in the war; but earlier,

you said that near Tuapu, you had such a fight, that the Germans....

B. Well, I was not in contact, I was not in contact....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A.

...In this instance, I am simply talking without any particular sense of

anger or offense.

B. Well, why be angry?

You are doing your job; you are working.

It is another thing that you are putting out hooks; that is another

thing.

A. I do not think there are any hooks.

B. Oh, yes; my God! =

Look at your questions.

A. Just a minute; for two days, I have been listening to you, and you

always insist upon "Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray."

I think that one of us is crazy.

B. I am not crazy, but maybe I soon will be; I have been imprisoned for

483 days....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

I have read nothing; the brain needs training, exercise.

A.

When I asks a question, you listen.

Of course, if you are going to sit there and think up new stories --

what to answer to a question and so forth - of course, you will be at

your wit's end.

SECRET

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B: But when I do not remember, I try to remember (XG).

A. You said earlier that the distance from Baltiysk to Sovetsk is 10-15

kilometers, right?

But when Sovetsk is not near Baltiysk at all...

B. Well, Primorsk, Primorsk!

A. How can one believe you'?

What is the matter?

B.

Well, look -- if you are going to count 10-15 kilometers, and if it is

25... you will ask, "how

is that?"

A. I have not the slightest intention of arguing about two, ten or five

kilometers, absolutely none.

This

is not my problem, because I...

B. I understand; you are looking at it from the point of view that I said

Sovetsk, and you look for Sovetsk, but there is no Sovetsk; so, you

say, "What is he saying?"

A. I do not have to look - I know where Sovetsk is.

This is my

next question - there is a Sovetsk in Kalingrad Oblast; now,

you tell me where it is; you should know and there was an intelligence

point there.

Tell me about it. ((Pause))

B. I do not know.

A. A man who has worked in the Intelligence of the Fleet, in Kalingradsk

Oblast, if he insists that he was in Baltiysk, Kaliningrad, Sovetsk,

although he changed it from Sovetsk to Primorsk....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

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A. He would know... where Sovetsk is, also, because there is a Sovetsk in

Kalingrad Oblast.

B. Then why do you confuse me, why are you confusing me?

A. I am not confusing you; you are confusing yourself.

B. I do not know, I do not know.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. ...There

is

a Sovetsk; if you worked there, then you must know; now,

explain to me where it

is.

B. I do not know.

I am telling you that, in my memory... Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

Why do not I see Sovetsk there?

Well, I had Primorsk in mind.

There... there... this place... here it is - not on the spit, but

before the spit....

A. If we consider that you were working... or that you held the position

of senior translator-interpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point... well,

I even will imagine for a moment that you were in Primorsk... then you

should know precisely that there is a Sovetsk and there was also a Navy

Intelligence Point there.

Even if you were not there, you should know this through correspondence-

because these points are connected somehow.

B. You do not have to tell memy fairy tales; please do not tell me tales.

Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, in August 1952 -- when I arrived,

had only one single point; if there were any others before that, then

they were eliminated.

There was one in Rostock, Sassnith, Sv inemunde

-- all of them were

shut down.

LUNT

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A. We will talk about Svinemunde and Sassnite -- you were there and then

you said that you had not been there.

If we have to, we can return to that question, also.

I cannot understand why you should be nervous.

B. Why nervous?

Because I am in prison; because all I can see is hooks, hooks, hooks,

hooks, hooks, hooks, and a great desire to make me out as guilty; Lord

knows, great accusations are being levied against me.

A. I do not want to make you out guilty; no one wants to -- you yourself

do this.

B. Only that way, only that way....

A. Well, how can it be believed, when for two years you were saying --

Sovetsk, Sovetsk, Sovetsk; 10 or 15 kilometers from Baltiysk; that is

all.

B. Very well; show me that map once more.

A.

I do not see any reason to do so; I do not want to show you Sovetsk.

We will come to it, and I will show you; I will bring you a large map.

Your statement that these intelligence points were eliminated -- even if

they had been eliminated, they were there, and it is an established

fact, and no one makes a secret of it.

B. What was there?

Where were they?

They had only one point.

A.

You tell me where.

If you say that there was one point, then you were not there - that is

what the question is about.

B. I have nothing to say to you, because I am telling you the way I

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remember it, the way it was left in my head.

A. Well, you see, perhaps again you will say that I am putting out hooks

for you -- today you say, ... "The way I remember"; yesterday, you

insisted, that. "It was Sovetsk! that

is final!"

, and that you received

letters, "Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray".

B.

Right, right.

A.

Today, we know that there is no Primorskiy Kray, and you were not in

Sovetsk.

Then, how am I to....

B. For me, for me... even though you showed me the map... for me --

"Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray"; why?

I do not know, I do not know.

A. You know very well that in Moscow Oblast - ((there is)) Moscow City,

in Leningrad Oblast -- Leningrad, in Krasnodar Kray -- Krasnodar, in

Ryzan' Oblast - Ryazan', in Kaliningrad Oblast -- Kaliningrad;

there

never was a Primorskiy Kray there.

B. And maybe you are confusing me on purpose?

A. How?

How for example?

B. Well, give me that map; I will show you now -- because Sovetsk is near,

close to the sea.

A. ((Close)) to what?

B. Well, Sovetsk... well, where our MRP was situated, on the shore of the

sea... ((Pause))

Well, why are you smiling?

A. What else can I do?

SECHER

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B. You have completely mixed me up - alright; think what you wish; I

cannot, I cannot, I cannot do anything.

A.. I think that if we willitalk it over together and try to find a common

language, I think that....

B. I am applying all of the strength that I have left, although there is

only a little left.

A. (1G)

B. Well, yes, here I have lost 30, 40, 50 pounds at a

time.

A. Well, I do not think that you think that I am to blame.

B. No, no, no; in no case do. I blame you personally.

A. Then, one of the reasons you have lost ((weight)) -- ((although)) you

((may)) have not lost - is that you have been saying that you were in

places where you were not:

B.

This is one of the wonderful reasons -- ((in English)) attitude.

A. I think it is much better than there,

in the Motherland.

B. I have not done time there; of course ((it is worse there)).... ((laughs)

A. Are you sure that you have not done time?

B. ((Pause)) This

is the strangest question.

A. For me, it

is not strange at all -- becuase, when you speak with

someone, and he cannot say where he was and so forth... he was somewhere

right?

B. I am telling where I was; a man

is

free, free to make a mistake.

SECREY

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A. Free to make a big mistake (1G) .

B. And to remember... as you wish... oh... I do not remember anything --

neither the Regulations, nor the Party.

I do not want to remember any Regulations.

A. I told you the last time that, if you do not remember your Party card

number, I would question where you were a Party member -- that is true;

I am telling you openly, and I am not hiding it.

B. Right, right -- becuase I have no proof; I cannot show my Party card.

If I showed you my

Party card, you would say, "Oh, you can write

whatever

you need" - that is why I never can prove anything to you,

if you do not want to believe...

A. I want to believe, but I cannot.

B. I never can prove it to you.

A. I want to believe...

Listen; do you really think that I only brought the Bol'shovt sovetside

Intsiklopediya to put you in a difficult position - for example, with

Sovetsk or Baltiysk?

I brought it for one purpose, and that was - to show you that you were

making an error; it is not the way you are saying it is.

If you had been in Primorskiy Kray, then my question would have been --

in the Far East, or somewhere else:

((XG; A and B speak at the Same time))

There was never a Primorskiy Kray in the Baltic area.

If you had made an error about some village (("Shory-Yery" -- i.e., an

imaginary "somewhere")), then I would not question it; but when it

comes to talking about a whole oblast -- which everyone knows about,

which was German territory, wich since 1946 after the death of KALININ

has been called Kaliningrad Oblast, but you call it Primorskiy Kray --

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then,

for this reason alone, I have returned to this question three

times, and I brought the encyclopedia to show it to you; I did not

compile it ((the encyclopedia)).

B. One minute, one minute... maybe -- I do not remember - well, maybe

the letters were addressed, "Sovetsk By the Sea (Sovetsk primorskiy)"

or the devil knows what.

A. I do not know; you were there; I was not; but, wherever I was, I know

how I received letters.

B. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember; think what

you will - I do not remember, as I told you.

A. It cannot be

so.

Again, you... perhaps you tried -- I do not know - perhaps you really

think that that is the way you wrote it -- "Sovetsk By the Sea"

like that; but if you look at the map, there is another Sovetsk.

Near Arkhlangelsk there is another Sovetsk, also, by the sea.

If you write "Sovetsk By the Sea", the post office will never find it;

there has to be something other ((than that)).

B.

I do not remember, I do not remember.

I do not know why I remember,

as I told you,

"Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray"

I do not know.

A. One more little question - I want you to tell me more or less precisely

if you really were in the Baltic area, and for how long.

B.

I told you that I arrived there in August, and at

I went on leave.

the end of December

A. Do you remember what you said earlier -- how long were you there, and

how you were there?

How do you explain the discrepancies.

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B. I do not remember how much I said, what I said -- I do not remember.

A. Earlier, at one time, you said you were there more than a year; then,

you said you were there almost a year; then, 6 months; now, you say

you were there four and half months.

I want you to tell me for the last time whether you were there or not.

I was there, in the summer; I arrived approximately in August and was

there until the end of December; at the end of December, to my thinking,

I left for Moscow, in 1952... at the end of December 1952.

A. Well, what was interesting there, when you were in Kaliningrad?

What do you remember about Kaliningrad?

What kind of life was there at that time in 1952?

B. Well, I did not live there.

A. Surely you were there?

B.

Well, I passed through.

Perhaps one time I went there with the fellows for a drink on Sunday...

and when I was leaving.

A. Well, if you went for a drink, what particular thing might you remember?

What do the sailors usually recommend to drink in Kaliningrad?

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A. What is there?...

B. I drank vodka.

A. Did you ever go to the movies?

B. No, I never went to the movies.

A. Well, what - you just went to Primorsk and did not go anywhere?

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B. What -- do you think I was there in Sovetsk for years?

A. Well, if one is to believe that you were there for four and a half

months, you could not have spent all of your time at the base.

B. Well, I did spend all of my time there.

A. You were there day and night:

B. Yes, that is where we lived.

A. I understand that you lived there; on your days off, you must have

gone somewhere,

right?

You

just cannot

sit around like that all the time.

B. I do not remember; well, maybe... it seems we went to Zelenogradsk,

a resort town on

the coast.

We. stayed there ((at the base)) all the time.

Buy, anyway, you know - I think that I was right when I said Sovetsk.

Why?

Because this little town could not even be on the map, on that map; it

could not be; it is too small for this - there is no population there;

there is a little settlement.

I do not know why it was called "the city of Sovetsk,"

a settlement.

A. For your information - of course, there is in Kalingrad Oblast a city

called Sovetsk, but it is not a settlement and it is not a small town;

there are no other settlements by the name, Sovetsk.

B. I have in mind that Sovetsk which lies on the approach to the spit.

There is none -- that is my answer to that question, without even

thinking it over.

B. May I see that map once again?

This map -- I will show you.

SECRET

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A. I will bring you a bigger one.

B. No, that one - I want to show you the place.

A. I do not want to show it to you, because

-- every time - you tell me.

for example, today you said, "Oh, not Sovetsk, ((but))

Primorsk."

B. No;

one minute -- do not say that, do not say that.

A.

Well, if I show you the map, you will say, "Ah, that was it; I made

mistake again -- it was not Primorsk", but you will say it is something

else.

Let us leave it just as it is.

B. You see... you see how you approach this question.

A. Well, how else can I approach this question?

You are smart enough!

As soon as I showed you; you immediately said, "I am sorry; I do not

know how I made the mistake. Primorsk."

When I told you that there is a Sovetsk and a Primorsk in Kaliningrad

Oblast, then later -- after 15 minutes -- you begin to think: "Neverthe-

less, this place is Sovetsk.

Such a little place -- I do not know why it is called a city.

Not another."

B. You show me a map; on this may this Sovetsk is not to be found; I

point out - here, here is the spit... Baltiysk; right there...

this

is Primorsk; if it is not Sovetsk; it means I was mistaken, that is all.

A. There is a Sovetsk.

B. Then, I was right; you are confusing me.

A. There is

a Sovetsk.

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B.

Then, I am right; then, I am right; you are confusing me.

A. I am not confusing you at all.

I did not ask you to look at the map and say, "I am sorry; it was not

Sovetsk, but Primorsk."

I did not ask you about that.

If you were there, you should know; you should know Sovetsk, Primorsk,

Baltiysk, and Zelenogradsk.

B. As if, for the four months that I was there, I was traveling all over

the place, studying the map!...

It absolutely was not that kind of work.

A. Just for that reason alone, you should know that... if one is to

believe what you said, you were in Intelligence of the Fourth Navy

Fleet... for this reason alone, you must know.

If you had said another reason - that you were doing something else --

I would not even ask; perhaps you might not even have heard of these

towns.

But if you worked there, you must know - because all of these cities

had and have a direct relation to Navy Intelligence.

B. Why do you say that?

Intelligence is not counterintelligence; it isn't counterintelligence;

is not concerned with questions....

i

A. This is daily work, daily work; you do not necessarily have to be there

((to know about these places))... because you are sitting and working...

today, someone or other comes from a Navy unit; tomorrow, someone comes

from some other place... you go some other place for a couple of days,

and so on and so on..:

B. The fellows did not go anywhere except to Baltiysk; they did not go

anywhere.

A. Then it must have been a poor Navy Intelligence Point, that they

SECRET

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were not doing anything.

B. But the tasks were changed, absolutely; there was only one task --

the preparation of agent-manned observation posts against the event

of war; that is all; there was nothing more; there was no agent work

at all.

A .

Well, if you are talking about work, I think we will return to it

in

little while.

If we are to believe what you said before, then you did not even say

anything about what you did in Intelligence there,

that you were

occupied with entirely different matters there.

B.

Well, and it was because I was occupied with this, that I decided to

get out of the GRU.

A. Let us take a little break.

B. May I smoke!

A. Well, think it over a little... after our rather loud talk of today.

B. I only ask that you forgive me; maybe I... you must understand me as

man to man... maybe sometimes I get aroused, perhaps raise the tone of

my voice; well, please, do not pay any attention to it....

A. As I told you -- I am not angry at all.

B.

...Because this does not relate to you personally... ((it is my))

nerves, or the devil knows what.

A. I fully understand that.

Maybe sometimes I ask "interesting" questions and I try to get the

answers.

It is not my task to make you nervous.

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B. No, no, no.

A. If you get nervous yourself, this depends only on you.

It is very difficult, even for me, to talk with you, because you make

such mistakes in answering questions which any schoolboy can answer.

I still cannot get it in my mind, how such a person as you, with such

position and status, does not know Primorskiy Kray and Kaliningrad

Oblast.

Why?

Explain to me?

B. Well, I do not know, I do not know.

I am telling you

as I remember it -- Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray - the

devil knows

why.

Right ((you are right) ).

A. Well, let me ask one more small question before you finish your

cigarette.

KALININ died....

B.

Well, if they ask me in what year KALININ died…..

A. I am not asking when KALININ died.

It is not necessary to remember, I would not ask another man this

question.

Inasmuch as you said that your father was a Minister, who held a high

position, etc., apparently he respected "grandfather" KALININ.

B. Yes.

A. Without doubt; whenKALININ died, were you at the funeral - you yourself

B. I do not remember, I do not remember,. I do not remember.

A. Your father probably was at the funeral....

SENSET

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B. Yes, of course.

A.

.:.Because his position requires it so.

It is not necessary; maybe he was not, but more likely he was.

B. Yes, yes.

A.

As you said, your father had many awards, etc.

You know that all people in high places in the Soviet Union, especially

in Moscow, and especially Ministers, receive their awards from the

hands of the President.

And before KALININ, Mikhail Ivanovich, died he, of course, shook hands

with your father.

And probably, when KALININ dies, your father said: "I am sorry etc...

the man died... He was President for a long time;

he was respected by

all, by those who like the Soviet Union and by those who do not like

the Soviet Union."

B. He was from peasant stock, a simple worker.

A. Well, if we look at it even from this point of view, it is possible

that there was a family conversation: "Thanks, that at least one thing

was done -- they named Kaliningrad Oblast in memory of KALININ".

B. I do not remember.

A. Well, I do not insist that it was that way, but it might have been.

B. I can tell you more - I knew his niece very well.

A. Then the more so; in that case, there may have been discussions, perhaps

on this subject.

B. No, there was no discussion on this subject.

A. Well, I do not insist that there was; but there could have been, right?

SEGRET

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B. Yes, yes.

A .

And, of course, as I said, it is difficult for me to understand why

you do not know about such a simple thing as Kaliningrad Oblast and

Primorskiy Kray.

I cannot understand it at all.

You told us that you traveled over the Soviet Union extensively, going

on TDY's and so forth.

You know that counterintelligence officers know the territory very well,

even if they do not work in it.

Then, Kaliningrad Oblast is

a good place for agent training and for

everything.

It is former German territory.

One

can bring those people, put them

in German houses or something

like that.

B.

((XG) )

A.

We will have a break for a few minutes.

( (BREAK) )

There; I have just obtained the Administrativno-Territorial'noye

Deleniye Soyuznykh Respublik, published in 1954.

There is Kaliningrad Oblast and it also is written that there is a

city of Sovetsk and a Sovetskiy Rayon.

If you are still uncertain where it was etc., read, starting from the

top.

B. ((Reads)) "Kaliningrad. Oblast -- capital -- Kaliningrad... Name of

Rayon -- Sovetskiy...."

A. Further, further; look down below....

B. Here is the "city of Sovetsk".

SEGRET

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A. A city of oblast subordination.

B. Of oblast subordination.

It is subordinate to Kaliningrad.

A. To the Kaliningrad Oblast Soviet.

B. Sovetsk....

A. And what there is of rayon subordination?

• B. These are "town types (gorodskogo tipa)".

A. Further, there are small towns which

are

in Kaliningrad Oblast.

B. Please show me that map again.

((After looking at the map:)) Here is

Baltiysk, right?

And Sovetsk was from Baltiysk... this was on the spit... before the

spit.

It was here somewhere..:

But it could be...

I tell you I remember Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

Because... what is it...

For what... I do not know.

A. Here is Sovetsk? ((A shows Sovetsk on the map))

B. No, no, no, no; in no case ((not that Sovetsk)).

Here, right here.

Here, here, here ((shows another location))

Directly...

see...

at the beginning of the spit, at the very beginning

of the spit;

here, right here.

Maybe I have Primorsk in mind... Lord knows... in my memory, it is

Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

Why?

The devil knows.

SEBRET

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Maybe, about this Primorsk... I do not know.

This is where our MRP was.

Here is a small, small... it is not even a city; it is a small, small

settlement.

A. There is no other Sovetsk.

B. Well, well, it was there.

Why in my memory -- Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; I do not know.

In no case (XG) Sovetsk.

A. I think that....

B. No, no, no; in no case, this Sovetsk.

It is at the very beginning of the spit.

Baltiysk is on the spit, and this is at the beginning of the spit.

A. What do you think -- it is difficult to make a mistake between Sovetsk

and Primorsk?

Right?

B. Well, why?

• Look, here also is a Primorsk.

Well, I do not know why it stayed in my memory that it was Sovetsk,

Primorskiy Kray.

The devil knows.

A. I make the conclusion that it is possible that at one time you could

have visited there....

B. There was no reason -- only when I was at that MP.

A.

...Kaliningrad Oblast and so forth...

But everything adds up to ((the conclusion)) that your knowledge is so

small and you cannot confirm in any way that you had worked there.

You know absolutely nothing about it, even about the existence of

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of Kaliningrad Oblast; I cannot understand this at all.

I can only say, speaking with a man who lived all of his life in the

Soviet Union, in Moscow and in other cities... and the ((Kaliningrad))

Oblast has been in existence since 1946... he makes such a mistake --

Primorskiy Kray - when it never was called that.

B. I do not know why in my memory...

I tell you that I remember:

Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

But why?

The devil knows.

But I have in mind that little place at the very

beginning of the

spit, at the very beginning of the spit.

A. Of course, the spit is there; it has

not wandered off anywhere.

It still has not washed away; it was there, and it is still there.

But, of course, you must understand, it is difficult, quite difficult,

to believe that you were there, when you cannot say for sure where you

were.

B.

Well, I am

telling you where I

was.

A. You remember, of course, that you mentioned to me that Baltiysk formerly

was called Pillau....

B. Pillau - "this is the former Pillau."

A.

..And Sovetsk; you did not say exactly how....

B. I even do not know what it was called.

It was a German name.

A. Well, you did not tell me exactly what this was called.

You thought that formerly it was called so and so;

this means you have

in mind some town.

B. This Sovetsk had a German name.

SEGRET

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It was a small, small fishing settlement, nothing more, aithough there

were several buildings.

The ton itself was ravaged.

Judging by everything, it was a large fishing settlement.

A. Well, after the death of Mikhail Ivanovich KALININ, the city of

Konigsberg was renamed Kaliningrad, on 4 July 1946.

The city, of course, is quite large.

But, of course, in 1945, there was almost nothing there.

B. It was wrecked - I remember the city

well - but the plant remained.

A. Do you remember - when you were there, what kind of newspapers

were

published there, and what kind of newspapers did you read

there?

B. Well, we read

our own paper, which was the Fleet newspaper.

A. What was it called?

B. I do not even remember the name.

In the Far last, it was called Na Strazha Rodiny (On Guard of the

Fatherland), but I do not know what it was called here.

A .

That, too, is quite strange.

B.

Well, I do not remember the name; I do not remember.

A. Well, what kind of newspapers did the Oblast Party Committee and the

Oblast Soviet publish?

B. I do not know, I do not know; I do not remember.

A. Well, I think that if you were there, you should remember something;

right?

B. Understand me, I do not remember; I do not remember.

SECRET

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First of all, it was long ago, and secondly, I was there for a very

short while; I did not live in kaliningrad.

A. I did not say that you lived there.

It is not necessary to live in Kaliningrad.

They send the newspaper all over the oblast,

to the military, to

everyone.

B. We received the military newspaper.

We did not have to subscribe in order to receive the newspaper.

A.

Even if you go to the "Lenin Room", it could be there, on the tables;

it is not necessary to read it.

B. Pravda, Izvestiya, laying there... and the Fleet newspaper.

A. What kind of Fleet newspaper?

B. I do not remember what it was called; I do not remember.

A. You were in the Far East earlier, but you remember that name -- Na

Strazhe Rodiny.

B. Well, I was there for a long time; Na Strazhe Rodiny.

A. ...But this was later, and you do not remember.

B. I do not remember.

A. Believe me; it is difficult for me to believe that you were there, in

that situation and in that position, at the Intelligence Point, in

Intelligence, etc....

B. A man arrives; he never was there ((before)); should he bother about

the oblast, about what kind of newspapers are published there.

I did not know anyone in the group; I absolutely did not know anyone,

SEGRET

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not one man.

A. And, again, your statement that you did not know anyone in the group

indicates that you were not there.

B. I said that, before that, I did not know anyone; it was an absolutely

new group for me.

A. Who was the Chief of Intelligence:

B. I do not remember; a colonel... I do not remember his name.

A. Whom do you remember from when you were there, from among the counter-

intelligence officers?

B. I did not know any of the counterintelligence officers; I did not know

one of them.

A. But you knew that they existed... or did you?

B. Well, in general, I knew -- there has to be a Special Department

(Osobyy Otdel), how else?

A .

When you were there, did you ever have occasion to meet counterintelli-

gence officers?

B. No.

A. You know that most of the employees of the organs of the KGB... ((they

are)) specially ((from among)) those who are more or less faithful

Komsomol members or Communists....

They have been, frankly, put on the hook — that is to say, recruited

into work for or cooperation with the organs - and then, many of them

became staffers of the organs; I have ((this)) in mind ((when I ask

you)) -- when you were in the Baltic, while working in Navy Intelligence:

did you have any connection with counterintelligence?

SEGRET

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B. Absolutely none; and in the Far East, where I was for a long time, I

had absolutely no connections.

A. Well, if you did not, you did not have; but I think it would be logical

for you to remember the name of the Chief of Intelligence.

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. And what about the Deputy Chief?

B. I also do not remember.

A. Well, name

someone with whom you worked.

B. I remember... whom?

There was Capt 3d Rank DEMCHENKO; there was an officer named BULAKH.

A. What was his rank?

B. Senior Lieutenant; there was also a captain-lieutenant... I remember

his face very well, but I do not remember his name -- it seems ((it was)

YELISEYEV, but there is a big question ((about this)) ...

I do not remember; but I remember those two names.

A. You remember DENCHENKO, BULAKH, and you are not sure about YELISEYEV.

B. Yes.

A. Did you have any friends with whom you were pals while you were there?

B. Well, what kind of friendship?...

I was there only four months.

A. Well, when you went to eat with someone...

or you tälked with him on a

day off or had a drink with him...

There must have been some such person.

SEENET

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B. One minute... BULAKH did not live with us; he lived separately because

he brought his wife.

And this one -- Capt-Lt YELISEYEV - also brought his wife with him.

DEMCHENKO was a bachelor, and lived at the base, as I did; then, there

was a lieutenant, a dark fellow -- he looked like a gypsy -- I do not

remember his name; we lived in the same room -- DEMCHENKO, the lieutenan

and I.

I remember no other names.

A. Did you live alone, or with someone?"

B. No, there were several of us living in

a room right there

at the base.

A. With whom were you living?

B. DEMCHENKO was in the same room; then, this lieutenant....

A. Well, did you live with them in the same room?

B. In the same room.

A. DENCHENKO and who else?

B. The lieutenant, also; I do not remember his name.

A. Well, then, it is as if to say you had no special friends.

B. I did not have any, because it was for a

short time.

A. Well, did not they give the son of a Minister a separate room?

B. There were none; there was no possibility.

We lived right there where our work room was... it looked like it was

an attic... you could say it was the third floor; the building was a

Mansard-type.

SECRET

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A. Let us begin with that - when you came there, you reported that you

had arrive; what kind of work were you assigned?

B. Senior translator-interpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point.

A. You came to the MRP; where was it - Sovetsk or Primorsk?

B. Sovetsk, Sovetsk; it is Sovetsk.

A. You should think of something else, because there is no Sovetsk.

B. Well, I cannot tell you the name, but I remember it was Sovetsk, right

there at the end of the spit.

A. There is no Sovetsk at the end of the spit.

No Sovetsk is written near Baltiysk, or anywhere else there.

The old name could not be Sovetsk; and as its new name, it was never

called that.

B. The new name was Sovetsk.

A. I understand that it could be Sovetsk only under the new name -- because

it could not have been Sovetsk under the Germans.

But now I am faced with a dilemma, and there is a great question - let

us say that you came to this place, that you were assigned as a senior

intelligence officer....

B. A senior translator-interpreter.

A.

...Translator-interpreter at the MRP in the city of Sovetsk, several

kilometers from Baltiysk.

But on the spit, there is no Sovetsk.

B. At the beginning of the spit, there was some kind of Sovetsk.

A. There was no such place.

SORRET

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B. Well, I do not know.

It is such a small place, that perhaps it is not on the map, not on this

map; this map....

A. Of course, I do not want to declare, or I do not want to say, that we

have a map with all of the points, especially of this place; you

understand?

There is no such place there; there is nothing else there.

B. I cannot tell you anything more; I absolutely cannot tell you anything

more.

I tell you -- it is there, at the very beginning of the spit, a small,

small settlement called Sovetsk; that is what is

stuck

in my

memory

— m

Sovetsk; what can I do?

I do not know why "Sovetsk"; I do not know.

A. Well, I have to know exactly - what was the address

written on the

letters you received?

B.

Well, maybe I am not telling you the truth; perhaps I am in error here -

but I tell you again that I remember "Sovetsk", and --. for some reason -

"Primorskiy Kray".

Why?

I have in mind this pace right at

the beginning of the spit, or

"Sovetsk By the Sea".

I do not know, I do not know.

Sovetsk, there, Sovetsk.

A. How was it written - "City of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray" -- and what

else was written?

B. I do not remember exactly.

I told you, but you insist on putting the dot over the i's; I cannot

insist.

A. Well, you see... it should be "Military Unit" or something.

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в.

Military Unit number so-and-so.

A. "Military Unit number so-and-so", then, probably the mail went through

the military field post office.

B. Well, because ((it was a)) military unit.

A. I suspect that it could not have been addressed to give the city, the.

street number, etc....

B. No street, nothing; no, no, no.

A .

If, let us say, there were other circumstances....

If you were an intelligence officer under civilian cover there, you

could have received

mail at a civilian address.

But, if ((you were)) at the MRP, I do not think ((the mail)) would

show. "City of Sovetsk, such-and-such a kray".

Probably there was only "Military

Unit..." and nothing

else.

B. I do not know why this is "Sovetsk" in my memory; I do not know.

A. Well, what were your duties?

You

arrived there as

a senior translator-interpreter of the MRP.

Imagine that

it was located somewhere on the spit, and you were there.

What was your job?

B. The point was set up just before I got there, before my arrival...

literally.

Before this, they were in Germany.

A. So.

B. I arrived, and the work here was purely of such... for everyone, officer

and all the soldiers….. the work was. simply outfitting the living

quarters...

Here and... that... the soldiers' mess-hall... the officers' mess...

-SECHET

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everything taken together....

We were concerned with purely housekeeping problems.

A. How much time did this take?

B. I do not know; I cannot answer outright; I do not know.

From the beginning, the point was faced with the usual problems.

In German, the permit was concerned with agent work; that is, they had

agents on commercial ships -- they had Soviet agents and also agents

from among the foreigners.

But here, there was absolutely no agent work; it was a new mission.

The point, Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, and probably the GRU

was changed with the creation, the preparation... rather, you could

say... the preparation of ANPS - Agent((-manned)) Observation Posts

(Agenturno-Nablyudatel'nyyeposty) against the event of war.

What was it, and how was it organized?

I personally did not do this kind of work, because I never had done

that kind of work; I had had no experience.

Furthermore, I had had no experience with agents.

I will tell you now, briefly, what it is and what I did.

Well, the officers -- BULAKH, YELISEYEV, and the others....

A .

Tell me only what you did; do not tell me what the other officers were

doing.

Tell only about your self, because we do not want to lose time talking

about other persons.

B.

But it was connected with what I did.

A.

Well, if it is connected with you, that is alright.

B. They selected people, from among the NCOs, the officers, sailors,

specialists, radiomen; then they organized groups of two and three men;

they checked the men who were ready to be discharged within six months

from the Navy.

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A: Alright; let them select the people; let us return to your work.

B. ((Nervously:)) My tasks were, my tasks were; I held lectures about

the foreign policy of the Soviet State... about the fundamentals of

Marxism....

Besides that, when the mail was delivered to the military unit...

then,

the litters were delivered to our point....

I was, so to say, an administrative officer; I had such additional

functions - I brought the letters over, and asked what was needed --

razors, shaving cream,

etc.

So, so, so, so, so... I mean, supply.... because they were housed in

what

you might call safehouses.

A. And where were these apartments located?

B.

There were a couple in Sovetsk; there were... on the approach to

Baltiysk, in Baltiysk, in several places.

A. How were the men whom you supported dressed?

You brought them their letters, their personal effects, such as socks,

smoker's supplies...

B. They were dressed in civilian clothes; and they did not go anywhere -

they lived there for two or three months at a time without leaving.

A. And what were they doing there?

B. The officers - let us say, BULAKH -- ah... trained them in explosives.

YELISEYEV taught them how to collect intelligence data.

That lieutenant who was with me -- the tall, dark fellow who lived

with me - taught radio.

These were short 2-3 month courses.

A. What else did you do while you were there?

B. Nothing else.

SEGRET

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A. Practically to say - you were assigned a senior translator-interpreter,

but you did not work with translations.

B.

No, no, no; there was no such translation work there.

A. And did they assign you as senior translator-interpreter of English?

B. I only have English.

A. Well, who knows?

Maybe you know another one.

B. Russian.

A. Anything else.

B. No other language; I understand a little bit in Ukrainian.

A. Do you know how they say, "Proletariat of all countries, unite!", in

Ukrainian?

B. No.

A. "Ragamuffins of the world, pile up!"

Where did you learn Ukrainian?

B. I was born in the Ukraine.

A. Who in your family speaks Ukrainian?.

B. My father knew Ukrainian, and my mother knew it; they forgot it.

Of course, they understood it very well.

A. Did you hear of the Ukrainian, TIKHOPZDENKO?

B. ((Laughs)) No, I never heard such a ((name)) .

SECRET

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A. And GOLOPUPENKO?

B. I have heard "GOLOPUPENKO" .

A. Listen, what is the matter?

Let us stop our talk for a moment.

Of course, it is possible that - for some reason -- you went to the

Baltic... bit it is impossible to believe that a

man,

military

intelligence Point, did not do any intelligence work, did

nothing.

B. Only this work, only this work.

A. What -- to hold lectures on foreign policy or Marxism-Leninism -- this

was not ((i.e., could not have been)) your task.

B. This is the work they gave me; that is why I was disenchanted with the

work.

What could I do there?

A. In the first instance, you seem to have been a political worker, but

when you say you delivered letters it looks as if you were Assistant

Chief of the Intelligence Point for Supply.

B.

...Not the point, not the point - for those people that were being

trained.

A.

Someone was responsible for them.

B. Well, the whole point was responsible for them.

For

each

group,

there was

a plan: what kind of lectures to give and

how many

hours,

including

mine - in foreign policy and Marxism.

Besides

that, there were

aids (posobiye)... just a minute...

there were

aids... these were supplied by the GRU;

they were

printed - not on a

press,

but typed.

For

example -- "The Agent Situation in Norway, Denmark, Sweden"; but

it was

not the agent network that they had in mind -- it was the cities,

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the description of the cities, what there is in the cities, what

sights there are there, the streets, stores, etc., because each group...

each group was trained there precisely for dispatch to Denmark, Sweden,

Norway, in case of war.

A. Of course, the conclusion can be made that these groups were very

important and that the MRP was very important, inasmuch as they were

preparing agents.

B. Please understand me -- it is just a big title.

A. To dispatch?..

B. I will explain to you right now; hear me out.

May I have a cigarette?

A. Yes.

HH

53216

B. Look how it goes - these officers, the officers who were instructing...

they said that, as work, this was a joke.

This was absolutely new work; they had never done such work before.

As work, it was

a joke.

Why?

They trained these fellows for two or three months -- they do not

know anyone else - only these three.

One was the chief of the group; one was the radioman; and the other

was the explosives man.

After two or three months they returned to their military units.

The commander does not know where they

were.

The impression is

given that they have

been on

trip, and the

commander does not know

where they have

been for two or three months.

Then, they

return and

complete their service

two

or three months.

And thus

they already

have been trained;

then

they are demobilized

this is their regular

service.

They are demobilized, and they

leave for home.

Their training is a big secret.

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There is nothing in their Personnel file about this; nothing is noted.

And what happened?

In case of war, they are mobilized by

the local military commissariat;

for example, in the city of Pivan', they took Sgt POPONDOPULO -- he had

been trained, and they send him in some military unit.

Now, how and where can they find him?

This is a joke.

A.

I am

sure that their names were on the rolls somewhere.

B. No;

of course, on the rolls of the GRU; when they are trained, they

are on the rolls of the GRU.

But, actually, they do not find half of them.

A. Let us go back a little.

BULAKH taught explosives; the lieutenant....

B. Because he knew that...

A.

...Radio work, etc., and you....

B. I do not know explosives; I do not know radio work.

How to collect intelligence data in that region, I also do not know.

That is why they gave me such work.

Could it be satisfying?

Of course not, absolutely not.

When

worked in the Far East, at least I felt it was intelligence

work.

Information collection - there was intelligence work, but it was far

from that ((in the Baltic)).

I told you why I went on leave.

I was not entitled to it

in January; it was too soon.

But I spoke with GOLOVKO, and I told him, "Arseniy Nikolayevich, this

work does not satisfy me

at all.

A. Are you sure that during that time about which you are talking, GOLOVKO

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was there?

B. I not only am sure; but I saw him - the commander-in-chief of the

Fourth Navy Fleet.

A. When you visited him, are you sure he was there, at that time?

B. I saw him at Baltiysk.

A. I ask you again....

B. Absolutely; I saw him - he gave the orders, and that is why they let

me go on leave.

A. We will return to GOLOVKO.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

Dead?

B. He died while Chief of Staff of the Navy of the Ministry of Defense.

A. From what you told me yesterday and day before about your Komsomol

work, about the Fourth Navy Fleet, and what you told me about your

duties there, with maps, etc., my only conclusion is that I cannot

believe your story.

I would like you to think about it and tell a more plausible story ....

B. It is not a story; this is how it was.

A.

..About where you were at that time, because there is no proof that

you were there and worked there:

I do not exclude the possibility that you were there under other

circumstances, but I am sure that you did not work there at the time

about which ve are talking.

BRET.

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B. I was not there at any

time other than until December 1952.

A. You

yourself

understand that you must give a more accurate picture.

Do you remember - that

in April 1964, when they talked

to

you here,

you said that you had been

there longer - and that you told a different

story

about your marriage

and how you came from there to Moscow?

Now, of course, ((it is))

a different

story ((you are

telling)), and

it

is difficult

to make

a conclusion about where

the truth lies -

whether you were

there four months, or six, or nine,

or....

B. But I could not have been there... I arrived... I arrived in the

beginning of... on leave from Sovetskaya Gavan'

A. Well, you, of course, remember that at one time you said that you

arrived from Sovetskaya Gavan' at the beginning of the year, and then

you said in the spring; I want to talk about this, also.

B. Well, I am telling you - in the beginning of the summer; I know

exactly, I arrived just before the May holidays;

I was hurrying because

of May ((First of May)).

A. This was the last version of your story; in

the beginning, you told a

different story.

B. First of May 1952, my father reached fifty years of age, and I wanted...

A. You told the doctor the last time how you arrived,

but before this

you told a somewhat different story.

If it is necessary, I can

read to you what you said; anyway, this is

what I want to get at -- if you really were there ((in the Baltic)),

then you have to tell me more than what you have.

B. I did not do anything else there.

And I was not there more ((at any other time)).

A. You can see yourself that what you did was not intelligence work.

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B.

But it was!

But I do not know....

This is why I left there, and why I did not want to be there.

A. One cannot believe this -- a man was there, but does not know the name

of the Chief or the Deputy ((Chief)) and can only give the names of

two people....

B. There was no Deputy at the point; there was a Chief, but I do not

remember his name, I do not remember him.

A: The man was in the Baltic Fleet, but does not even

remember the name

of the newspaper published there, does not know the address, does not

know the field post office....

B. Icdo not remember the fidd post office.

A. ...Does not know the Komsomol organization....

B. Well... the Komsomol organization....

A. You, of course, understand what I am talking about; that story which

you have tried several times to - so to speak -- sell, one cannot

in any way buy; I want you to understand this, as

friend to friend,

because this is very serious.

B. Would I really suck it out of my thumband make up stories for you?

A. I do not want you to make up stories - this is exactly what I do not

want.

B. Well, just as I say - why should I; why do I have to?

A. All the same, as they say, even though you say, "Why should I suck it

out of my thumb?", you still do it sometimes, and sometimes you are

not so bad at it -- I give you a few "credits" for that!

CRET

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But I do not want you to continue to do so in the future.

B. You ask me; I answer as I remember.

I did not do anything more there - only this absolutely futile work.

A. I am trying with leading questions, to remind you if you have forgotten;

but nothing comes of it.

B.

You want... I do not know....

But I cannot tell you anything more, if I do not remember and I do not

know.

A. I think we will finish on this ((point)) today; I hope

that we will

meet again -- and not only once; each time we stop, I ask you or warn

you that I think that the time has come for you to tell

something

different so we can believe you....

((End of Reel #5))

TEGRET

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