[RESTRICTED]
Originator: SSCIA
Document date: 06/02/1975
Document type: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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157-10011-10019

2022 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

Date: 08/15/92

Page: 1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER : 157-10011-10019

RECORDS SERIES :

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : SSCIA

FROM :

TO :

TITLE :

SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF D. BRECKINRIDGE, DEPUTY IG, CIA

DATE : 06/02/75

PAGES : 161

SUBJECTS :

TESTIMONY OF SCOTT D. BRECKINRIDGE, JR., DEPUTY I.G. /CIA

PARTICIPANTS: SENATORS SCHWEIKER, HUDDLESTON, HART & BAKER

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION : T

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS : P

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 09/29/93

OPENING CRITERIA :

IRS]

COMMENTS :

SSCI Box 231, Folder 11

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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in to discuss what llarvey referrs to as an executive action

capability, i.e, a general standby capability to carry out

assassinations when required.

Harvey's notes quote Bissell as

saying

• 'the White House has twice urged me to create such

a capability'." Bissell recalls discussing the question of

developing a general capability with Harvey. Then there is fur-

there discussion of dates, but not of substance. And at the

bottom of the page the substance continues as follows:

"After some discussion of the problems involved in develop-

ing an executive action capability, Bissell placed Harvey in

charge of the effort. Harvey says that Bissell had already

discussed certain aspects of the problem with" -- now, we

hav some blank outs here in our copy.

Are they not names which we have already seen?

Mr. Breckenridge. You have seen those names.

--you

have seen one of them, I am not sure you have seen

the other.

Senator Schweiker. In view of the fact that we need

this at this point, would you furnish us with that? Otherwise,

we can't very well understand that statement without those two

names.

Mr. Breckenridge. Yes. Let me give you the names.

I have given you one of those names as someone we inter-

viewed.. And we didn't give it in this context.

The names of the two people are Arnola silyer and sidney

Gottlieb.

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Mr. Schwarz.

And Mi. Gottlieb was a person who worked

in the Iechnical Services Division, was he?

Mr. Breckenriage.

Yes.

Mr. Schwarz. And he was the kind of person who made

exploding cigars and poison and syringes and that sort of thing?

Mr. Breckenridge.

That organization could do this sort

of thing.

The next one is, since Silver was already cut in.

Mr. Schwarz.

What was Silver's/function?

Mr. Breckenridge. Silver? where silver was at this time

I don't recall - silver is a man who was primarily a case officer

in the European area.

He had earlier recruited an asset, an

agent, who came to be considered for use in the Imumba instance.

Mr. Schwarz. Was that the person we already have on the

record called l.J. Winn?

Mr. Breckenridge. l. J. Winn.

Mr. Schwarz. And that recruting had taken place sometime

in 1960, is that right?

Mr. Breckenridge.

The exact place I don't recall now.

Q. J. Winn was recruited separately from this later activity.

So he was someone that already existed.

Mr. Bader. Excuse me.

was Salver fun tuxemburg?

Mr. Breckenridge. At one time he was.

He spent many

years in Europe. And it was because of his service there that

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"Since (Silverwas already cut in, liarvey used him in

developing executive capability, although never with respect to

Castro".

And then

after that:

"We did not question Silver on his knowledge"

MI.

Breckinridge.

No, we did not question Gottlieb.

Mr. Schwarz.

Where is Mr. Gottlieb today?

Mr. Breckinridge.

He is retired, and I understand

he is living overseas.

Mr. Schwarz. Is he living in India today?

Mr. Breckinridge. I am not sure whether it is India

or Africa.

MI. Schwarz. Going along, there is a notation by

that Harvey instructed

to discuss techniques with

without associating the discussion with the Castro

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operation.

Mr. Breckinridge. All right. Harvey's mention of him

in this connection may explain a notation by DI. Gunn that

Harvey instructed Gunn to discuss techniques with Gottlies,

without associating the discussion with the Castio operation.

Mr. Schwarz. And Gunn is the final person. And who is he,

or what was his function?

Mr. Breckinridge. Gunn was a doctor who provided

various kinds of operational support.

(Discussion off the record.)

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took place between the White House and Mr. Bissell,

do you

know whether Mr. Bissell disclosed to the White House that the

CIA was already engaged in a plan to kill at least one foreign

leader, to wit, Fidel Castro?

Mr. Breckinridge. I don't know.

Mr. Schwarz.

Is there anything else about executive

action capability which you do know based upon your conversations

with these persons or otherwise?

Mr. Breckinridge. It is our understandint that as establihe:

in this special project

that was never used, the project had

two purposes, one that appears on the record, which is to

steal

paodes

and the other one, which was developed by jour interviews,

which is to have this capability for assassination. The

best that we have been able to get out of the files is that the

code aspect became the controlling character of the

project.

And eventually, and as far as l.J. Winn was concerned, the

record indicates that he was paid off a couple of years

later. And whether or not he has ever been used I don't know.

Senator Schweiker. When did your investigation show

that the Executive Act phase of a project was in essence

phased out?

Mr. Breckinridge.

As Harvey got ready for a new assign-

ment -- I will have to check it here -- he decided to have the

agent paid off, and as nearly as I can reconstruct -- and I

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think this is correct - the project, rather than being

terminated formally, simply became dormant. And the record is not

too conclusive as to what happened to it, because

the other

thing

that was in it was this agent. And when Mr. Colby took action in

August of 1973 he instructed that if it had not already been

terminated it would be terminated then. But there

is

this uncertain element as to the normal administrative action

taken on the termination of the project itself.

Senator Schweiker. Which date was that?

Mr.

Breckinridge.

Well, formerly by Mr Colby's

instruction years later. It just went dormant and nothing

happened.

Mr. Schwarz. Doesn't page 41 of the record show that Mr.

2.J. Winn was

terminated in April 1964?

Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. The agent who was the only asset

in the project, the agent was paid off. But the administra-

tive vehicle, which is the project, just simply became dormant

without normal bureaucratic conclusion.

Mr. Schwarz. And on the face of things the project was

only a project to steal

so that it is only through

talking to people that youhave an idea that it also

had something to do with assassinations, is that right?

Mr. Breckinridge. That is correct. It is

only through

Harvey that we have this aspect of it.

Mr. Schwarz. "Now, is it Mr. Harvey's testimony that

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Mr. Breckinridge.

That is correct.

That was the judgment of the people who intended to

use him.

Senator Schweiker. Whether he knew it, in view of the

fact that he had a criminal record and the Agency hired him, how

could he not know that he was being retained on that asset basis?

What other assets did they have?

Mr. Breckinridge. The records on this man indicates that

every attempt was made to use him to (steal codes?

and recruit

Other men -

Senator Schweiker. Did he in fact (stealicodes?

Mr. Breckinridge. I don't know that he did:

Senator Schweiker. The record isn't clear on that?

Mr. Breckinridge. No.

Mr. Schwarz.

But you know that the Agency frequently

has

stolen codes?

Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, it has.

Mr. Schwarz. Has anybody ever discussed whether that was

a proper thing or that was not a proper thing to! do?

MI. Breckinridge. I have.

Mr. Schwarz. Has anybody said that was not proper?

Mr. Kirbow. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Breckinriage. I think that is an abstract question.

And there are both abstract answers and specific answers. And

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I think that the discussion is more public than it is an

issue that is raised within the Agency: The Agency, operating

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overseas, violates the laws of the country on occasion in which

it operates. It recruits people to give information on their

own country, which is against the laws of that country. And on

those occasions when it does acquire such things

as Secret,

codes.

if it does not do so by bribery, it does

so through

prople who break and enter.

Mr. Kirbow. Or by any other means available to them to

obtain such secret, codes?

Mr. Breckinridge.

well, by bribery and by taking poss-

ession of itself -- in theory you could kidnap, and in theory

you could intercept a courier. I don't know of any instances.

where that has been done.

Mr. Schwarz.

Getting back to what we are trying to do,

which is authorization, knowledge or concealment with respect

to high officials in the Agency or persons outside of the

Agency, would you turn to page 41. And I will read into the recora

the following; this is under the heading April 1962:

"Edwards recalls Harvey contacting him in April and

asking to be put in touch with Roselli. Edwards said that

he verified Helms'approval and then made the arrangements.

Harvey states that he briefed Helms before his first meeting

with Roselli, explaining its purpose, and he also reported to

Helms the result of his meeting with Roselli. Harvey states that

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