NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPT.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 01/01/0000
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Karl #14

I august 1205 and

13 AUgIE 1565

posite

TEUSLATION

B. Beforo BUnG! arrivod along with KOzLov, there was the chief of

the Dirertorate; his friend, ZHIVAGA, Chlof of the Second Director?

((an Klev):) nt that timo.

A. I linow that you runenberod that name vory wull; ve also inos him:

-I an asking what you did with nuiGI for the poriod of 3-1 days.

whan you were thore:

Your activity during this. time, dircetly with BunGI..

R. Oh, directly with DINGI

- after talking with him; on the following

day.

A.

Who was talklogi

B.

KO21,0v; ((B's surnare)).

What specifically did you talk avout sith him:

GIve no one example.

B. I do not renember;

I do not ronenber

1. ((Pause)) Mat did IndOV tall: about

B. I do not remember; I do not rencuber

He talked about many

things.

They began with how he llied his stay in the Soviet Union, how he

enjoyed the Soviet Union, then about tourist servlco.

Then, gradually they went over to: it may be disagrecable, but

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interation has been moired about has sapropey conduct, that

about lin conduct in doscow.

1. roll, mat conctly las he told about his conduct in losco.

B. Tellaho tag told that lils honosexunl contacts were town, that ti

is punishable under Sovlet law, by such-and-such an article, ctc..

that ho is not a diploint, did not have aiplomatic lununtty and eir

be sentenced under soviet lnw for the violation.

i.

hell, wint was his answer to this:

B.

Nell, I do not ronember; I cannot tell you.

2 .

riell, ho sald sonothini.

B3. Of course, he tas frlintoned, and upset; he did not feel good:

jut after that ve gradunlly rent over to saying that this could to

• **

anothed over; you understand - the loundation was laid meroby

the man said, "Very woll, I agrce to help.

A.

llow. exactly was this sald to him; how was it proposed that he

cooperato!

B. Well, It was sald that the Soviet Union is fighting for peace, and

so forth - sojo sort of political side.

A. Yes.

B. And that there are

people in the linited States rio mnt to unlorg

a nor war - tali. of that nature.

A. And did he believe this.

B. Of course, no.

well, I an slaply telling you that the approach mas such....

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ind d1d you son din moids

13. Ye!.

1: And how did no road to cirls.

B. Holl, how -- very unpleasant.

Wag hig ass scen:

D. Nell, of course, it was lare ((coughs)).

((Pauso)) Toll, mat ciso

Well, no led up to the loudition that, you eco, you anve a nolle

nasion; you teach; you have students, students uno are spocinlint-

and perhaps will do so ou Russia, vill be diploants, and so fort.

"Dit many of there studonts could be uscd... these students could

be used in Intollisence... intelltience.. they may be talen for

work in intolligence, they nas be sent with various assichments,

and so forth.

well, here, let us say, that you are teachine. an... proparind

students who lu the future could he usud in coverament cor."

l'ell, he could tell us ahout the usstement of stucents and so fort

tire linds of questions, man; little tulnes... ¡ camot toll you.

1. Yell, this ves. the flist comersation, the ilest conversation, jos

B. No, well, In this conversatton, the first conversation, re dotted

the l's.

In the first conversation, to dotted the l's.

Ic did not arree, in anying men he ras told to help Sortet

Intelligence.

ile was told = "You understand, it is a broad tern - to help

Soviet Intelllrience, of courso."

I renesher I sald to him, "Understand; no one will as!: you that 5o::

SH

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thare, or that pou do coothing stupid or cotcchang calverior.

nade explostone, de atti son one,

No, no cao lill aunt live con much a tast

"We even sillinot lali chont this.

"Stoply, there will lo cone tire of help from jou, if you de: sor

"well, porhaps you all dsclose, det un say, that jou have li got

faculty people mo we untremely anti-soviet, against the sortat

Union, and to forth" - In that spirit.

alright.

В. .

Tho talls touched upon the lact that ho was, yes, supposed to do to:

Italy aftor loavins the Soviet Union; he mas supposed to cp to tta!.

In Italy ho was suppoued to volt the rushil; he said... now tha

conversation caso un..: In this school of the Vatican.

Of courso, KOzLoy solzed upon this -- Mnt kind uf school is tits

how, that, that it alco to known about the work of the vatienn's

intolligonco.

And tho name, PUSIKUl, aircady says much.

he told us so lethiny or other about the RUSIul.

Ilo was asked to vrite about the RusIkul.

We asked him to vrite also ahout... he rote a number of names frow.

Yale University, of professors teaching courses on Russia:

A signed statement was taken from him that day.

A.

What did it say?

5.

That, "I, surGI, then auree to help the organs of soviet intellicen

d.. Well, what else was written la this staterent

в.

Well, I say, It sas a very shout statenent, but it directly stated

"organs of Soviet Intollienee."

A.. Mint was written at the end of the statement:

SECRET

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i. ((Pause))

More was no pookme; there was none there was non:

d. But he says thiere was.

B. It simply son that Inter a code word ras worked out rit talm, l

to contact him.

i.

hat pscudonym was he alven

R.

((walspers)). Mint psoudonyn:

Now.:

You sald that thero vag none.

B.: Hell, it is wo who ravo it to him, me did not tall with bla about

1. Ho says that you spolse with hli about it.

B. jos, a password was decidod upon.

A .

He said that ho was givon a pecudonym that ho nereed.:

n. ((Pruso)) I do not renenber, I do not remember.

1. Tho took the stateuent:

B. I took the statement, KOLLOV, niBo

A. Well, who -- you.

or 40%LOV.

B. You undorstand, it is not possible to draw such a line.

A. It is possiblo.

B.

Both.

SE&.

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time.

11.

both of un tout the statement; lots conduetra the tal

1

lield, co on.

13.

on tio following das..

llow.dld ho high the statement:

Mint was writton at the und of the statement:

Both of you took it fiw him, both of you spoke to kin -- you must

know.

I du not romenber.

( (TREAK))

The none of the worker who net in Klov was MIODOKOVSKIY

KODOKOYSKIY.

D.

YCs.

1. ((Pause)) Woll, # 1i00d 101101,

a

good nanc.

Б. (XG)

A. And mat did you call tint parado, you said.

B3.

Vlndlatr... Vladials.

1. Vindiair Stepanovich

B.

It seens it las Stepanovich.

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-?.-

:.

((in analian)) Well, dino.

sumar, or are you stoply coins to say that jou, as a caco offless.

B. No, l participatod, a partlétpated; l nover nas an agent.

i. You linor, ten know due allerone botsoen the varleus aents, that

soud, like you, tain part.

You sce a- jou can five neither coufirmation nor sour of your

information that you handled the caso, that you tire the case offr

responsiblo for this ento.

It does not matter how auch wo talk nbout it.

You sco how you swan about.

13.

No.

Л.

Mint do you muni -= no.

18.

No, no

With this ansior of no, you bury yoursolf even desper.

I do not inow how you are ruint to get out.

((Pause)) Toll; very tell - how many tines did you neet BUlGI in

Klov:

B. Every day that he vas there.

A. Evory day that he was.

there.

Inere were you torether with nuiGI, in lilev!

3. Then, at the vory moment of tho recruitment, of our recruitment

discussion, nice we touched on this unplcasant....

A.

Tell, let us differintlate.

sly do you cention thi ricruitment and the recruise:: talli.

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recause it to the none taini.

.. .

we:l1, 1t ls the sane thing;

re have nlear estillshed tat a conclundon is mitten abont w

recruitment, but not on the recruitache alecuasion.

And second, you bejan

the rerultient diacussion, then you trio li

recruitment.

Is this so:

The recruitment discussion. Ii the rocruttment Itself.

d. ...A recruitnent discusstos does

not mean that the person hac. hes::

recrulted.

B. Richt, right.

1. Pousibly, you recruit him, and possibly you do not recrust lim

B. He can say "jes" or "l0 to hoil."

X2M1:

Then probably the recruitment discussion Is conducted first, and

then tho recruitment follows; or does this nil do toother:

B. It ises torother, of course.

A. Il the person agrees, then eurything roes smoothly.

B. If everything foes soothly.

1. Then let us start fron here.

Fro: the first aceting in ife, ven you met in the safe-louss. on

Freshchatlk, you net

DURGI every day.

-You finished on the first-day, there was a mocting you spole for

several hours; then fungI went to the hotel, and you jourself live

1n this hotel, ono floor alove.

row the folluriog. day - brictly, chat did jou do with BURGI, In

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well, ali of thru dogs follower a that ded to do

a virated a cadicoral in too alone with bir.

A. Which cathedral?

B. I do not runeher mint It l8 called; It is an old cathedrai, elose

by tio Bogcan kanel nitsily Mesortal... ou tho squaro.

A. Alriht; you vialted the enthedral alone with him.

On what day was this - the sacond, third, or fourth day.

To my thin!:in::,

the second day.

1.

On the second day

Then, you were with him alonc noly one time:

B. no, I not hin alone also one thus toward the ond.

Whoro:

Boforo... on the eve of his coparture:

No visited soveral stores; lie was makin: purchasos; ho was buyin:

souvenirs, and I purchased souvenirs for hin' together with ida.

I bourt him an enbroidered. Ukratnian shirt.

1.. Ок.

D. Besides thnt, iChlow, I, and PaTREDO wore ((with him)) at tie ilo!

pocherslaya Lavra, vutstia of tier, on the outskirts of ilov.

A .

tho uns there -- kozloN..and.

B. PITIENiO.

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i. The chaufrour did noe tee in wttle ws; lo lued dooes !s

• 3

A. Dut de tas with jou; sou ilt do not inon teo the chandfous ar

Or is it Goncone clse.

Ho: thc one wau net jou at tie atrport?

B. It san a KGB vchielc.

1. Do e thoro clse diil you co...

B. ..No vore at tho klev Pechersinja lavra, that cathodial, then ve

went... yos, ve showed hi. a tolihos outside of klov.

K0Z1я, ((0'в surnano)) 2n1

IC'TIKO vent.

lo taz snoini cous and pian;

also, carlier at thie kolthor te morord

on tisiss Icforchnnd turato arringed for a dinner.

It ons arranped that a iilinaid or a ssinoherd rould Invite us io

her nouse.

It mas a ble roon; thure cas a table, and in. the corace tiere cory

1cois, thore voré many tcons.

He ins scated dircetl; balor the icons:

sic had an Intorest in leons:

Thcre tas a cumptuohie in':le.

of iinsero, tirey shouci it: tir bast.

It 18 tac usunl talo, to shog the sovict reality in the lost 1ioit.

1. ((1n Eegl1sh) ) Alrlpiat. •

Phcce else vuro you hortdes the tol!inz.

B. Then, ae espicisud a iuniroic- i bare just reucaloreil ee praslaat..

uc iag an assistant jrofcsaoi

o: lltcinturo.

eay.

I 51ll tell jou -- bocausc...

1. (oor Eaclisa)) Phallove ou.

that's all rtht.

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• *

rest on Stencisite.

Tre taln is, for foistracte,-tir

110-200 Blooters fron Aust fordionors are not allowd to to tie:

No tuo a 3in a- a01l0i, ((0'e Surnamo)), PETRINEO And CLACI: *3

I veronter nor the nuto oile not stuck wien appronchtn tamar:

ovicusly there had ben rain the cy before; there mas suen cia.

and the cutomobilo vas sturi in to the windows.

We were pulled out.

die showd his the

grave of silveimmo, on a hill ovcrlooking the

inepr.

Tuls took several hours, more thnn half a day.

You did not tr to push him into the Depr.

B. No, all of the followu as, the Intention was to smooth ouci tie

unplensant discussions which voic the basts, with tho conproptsin:

nature, for the recruitrent tal':, to

shooth it over alsolutely ind

not touch on this question at all.

1:

You did not thicaten his with anything; you ild not frichton hin

B. lio, with notitue, With nothing:

In the first conversation, se couched upon, ve spore about, about

his tendcneics....

A. That 1s understandable.:

B.. And, other than that, nothine, nothing, not one vas coutlored anyt:

A.

kell, vory vell.

B: Tell, besides this, in this thys ve ato trice at this apartsent.

Both after and lefore a ate, te continued to tali about tale

University, shout the fistil.

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intail the teaching statt mi the Rustli, pornogs the people ra

are utudging in thin school.

1p01:30!) Mow o1 lnvo corcotton to tell sou thie driall -I

just nos renendered i thin von before alleft doscow; ne rein int

First Departmont, with GuS'rov; ve asked FaKLISOY wiere to doriti

the nooting: place.

lic-agreed on a public library.

And there thoy would dentdo with him on the placo for later scoting

( (Pauso)) And FERLISUV

asled that arrangenents be nado for nore tini

one scotin: placo, for soveral of them -- that is, control meetlars:

you understand -- they ald not in to the first une; but they

ranted to uce if he would sho: up or not, and le thero was surcill-i

1f there vere surveillants; perhaps he had told about it, and chcy

want to catch us.

Thercfore, the contact was to le nic abroad, later -- lu Sentenic?

or in August, the flist ((contact))..:

only after the second or

third.

Л.

In New Yor!:

Yes.

A.. How do you know that'

B. Well, that was when le spole with KOZLOV... oh... with GUS'kov then

we were with FEKLISO! about nore to designate the neeting place.

1. liell, what -- did FElLISOY linself sa; were, or

Tas

there, also:

soncone cisc

В. І

do not conenber how it ins, tut ve established that the neetire

place vas to lo at a public litrary; this was decided in FaRLISO's

office.

1. Wher. ras this.

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a.!, 1l0009

done door prodie gods.

Mat a to would le connictin: the recrustent clocussion, lit

Micro to cut the recting place?

1..

You havo not killed the duck, and you are already vashlay it.

B.

Mell, you preparo to destanato tha ncoting placo; becauso thes ill

hold tho mooting, not the Second Directorato, richt.

1. How can ono prepare crerything, is the man lo not yet rocrulted

now aro you going to pure it out:

B.: Loo::

..

lio will say that a public limony is not gultable, for this or. tant

caron; ho knovs Nor Jor: Illic his five fingers, and ho will say,

"I cannot to there."

B.

kell, here, wat -- look; he is

a teacher

1.

I undcistand, I

understand.

((NG; A and B spoal: nt the sano tine))

Until tho duck is killed you cannot roast it.

B. Nel1, there was speculation, and it was decided that it would be in

a public library.

A. Tiell, 1f he said, "I canot to

rcason for this.....

in a publie library" and he has a

B. Then no would agrec wich ilm; then...

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- i:

But curryone alicady anore

1:.

11t, then he mould in agent where he would thn it dotees cris

nent)), te would come so an

"recacht with him sonchor; we soul:

till han, Very well; vory

...

How could you con tu an aproment with liln.

¿ou could not Immedttely trust lau and to for a meeting sacre is

блув..

n..

Just a minuto; listen to no -- te it turned out that no would not

aurcc... very well, theu. Mint placo do you surrest "

"Very woll, ve will thirt: nbout it."

"Perhaps we would letter det in touch with raiso with osco::

and say that this Is the way the cituntion 1o.

((Pauso)) I vant to nor -- ton" moro did you loarn that the

uceting vas sot for a pablle lirary.

Bocauso you could not tale mout this mocttng, until the man lad

recrulted.

riveryone knows this:

D.

He went to kiev,

with the idea that, is overything turned out

successfully and he aword to cooperate, it would lo set that the

meeting would take place in a public library.

A. liell, let us say, he rejrets this plan, the Illary; then wint.

D. Then find out what he proposes, and then, of course, contact losco.

1. You understand that not one Sulet intelligence ((organs)) woul

arco to this - that a han cho has

just been recruited proposc

that the necting le toll solesaere; they nover rould agree. with to.:

• Citin

B. liell, you are roing deep into theory.

I an tellin! you....

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Ins not talling about ang tacory;

Ine in the vory practior.

B. liel!, that lo tho say ll mas lo peartico

1. How no you colni: to no out to neet the man woom you have int

recrulted - tonocroy in will arrive and adules tho fri

Mell, that des may not only one meetlor, but threo control (opti:

aru held..

л. Ihero

B. Mll of then at the library, all of the at the llbzary; only on

difforont day's, nt Interruls of timo.

1. WOll, (811)) 10 days lo cannot (Ceo)) In the Lubeary. ni

"Well, 18 ho cannot, tich ve ulll roach each other l plonc... and

then arrange for sonetyly olsc.

No11, 1 insiust tliat....

There vero absolituly no other altornativos.

..soro other alternatlves must have been worked out....

B.

There wore sin othor niternatives.

A. "..You had not recruited hin yet.

B. The alternativo vas in the cvent of an afflinative rosult, cople::

of tho case, decide, with hlin on a public library.

A. Besidos that, what was with FELISOl:

Did he have only one joh - to five you addresses.

Did he have no other vorters

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The discusaton vas with I.n1.150%.

The sort In ller mo copleted; mint nost:

Men did BuG leave the Soviet inton ond mero did hu io.

D. He loft norond innedlatoly sin: ülev, lt seems.

1. He did not return to Homew

В. 10, по.

Л.

reli, what unusundetrenitonces vere thero in lie depnotuse too.

KIcv.

3. I do not rohember.

A. Well, you wore the ched ofileer.

p. Hell, I do not renchher.

1. ((Pauso)) Plense - Viat vas there that ts unusual

B. I Bald that I do not concaii.

A. Miat was unusunt about his docucuts.

B. I do not remember; I do not remember.

1. ((Pause)) but you still continue to insist that you fore his casi

officer:

В.

I an not insisting; I an sajin so.

A. You are sayint, but you do not insist:

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tes, o tnatot that immiled the developent.

Too bad.

((Causo)) Perhapa you partialpated du thu developent; derrit

handle 1t, and you could not inve handled it.

You should cry, not suite.

((Pauso)) Go on - wint happened in Now Yori::

lint ciso happoned vita BulGt.

5.

The ono thin: i know further in that, at the firet nectin: 11j

cheated him; lie actually annie.

Joy approachod lin on the becond or third (nocting)) - 1 in not

know - but not at the clint.

ruitor, they mot ito teresal. thies and they contlnued to tat

up lo, un 10, up lo, up to tar eventr in hungry in Sabotes

Dil you per, the thim to tiat thore le still a tendency lot the

cortero us tan Plane toe moctorato, tho employoes, the ploy

uf thơ

Rcelucncy... thor try ln thete discusslons; In their aranc

nectlms.., thoy conunt molittenl alscussiong and to forts wy

tino.

They vant a linn to loo: nt all crunts from the Couuntsts' stradgo:

throuch the cyon of a Sivlet Coumuntst.

1. Tell, It ts i bad assimont to cultivato a profeasor of Pussian

11 teraturo..

D. It is not. a proper ta::

do not agree titl it.

.1. (C-2G).

A. I do not agroo with it;

a person is recruited on compronisin.

natorial; a man has nicod... ua... so that... on comprocising

unterlal.

They try to convent ala into a Sovlet citizen; that is, into a

Connunist.

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## Page 19

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- !..

with those pless that be (almady)

hao, the close of ductican couldty.

1. Alright; lit us glop ou this.

Hos do you linen that i cal lo: the first neotine, that tr.

other ncotings up to the corne lu Hungry.

Frut thoro did you know tals

1. Nell, fron the First departnent.

1.

Well, how?

In that way.

B. Woll, wo stmply vere litrrested.

1.

Fron vison.

:B.

Well, ve wire inturunted in It through the same FEELiSOV:

Well, how van this, minetlenlly:

B.

I do not reueber how it as, practically.

A. ((Pause)) That a in those such a procedure to report to people.

B. No, no; it was sluply...

tiley in very rare cases tall....

sinply thus... I do not !nos.

cus ko? had fatrly coul relations with friLISoy.

I do not linow.

It ing

rea,so wanted to lotove contact with the Seventh Repartment,

because they needed aronts.

Hell, In sonoral, they are roguired not to talk, and they must not.

1. Mon did you send them al! o? the matertals!

B. Hell, I retu:ned

fron tilev:..

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J. !

1 tini, withn too or more days; no... aftor elve days a decora

klev port sone rohinin: materlal; thoro sag the curveillance.

A.

surveillanco did rut tve mything

10; nevertheleys, so is not to loave any matoriala tiero..

л.

mant arards and conundacions: uld you recolvo for this recruitiont

you, Kozlov and the others.

B:

ty ordor of sinor, solid audI vero given a conti's pay and

conmendation.

thon vas this

B. At the borinning of July

" PetroWD rocoived a coundation and half a month's pay: nastim.

a crunchdation:

Why vas it necessary cog

GAVe CASTrAYTE a commendation.

Well, so vere lauming.

kOLL insisted.

1. She was just there, just lic

yOu.

Sic probably vorked rore than you did..

She linous more about nin and this operation than you do.

RAS'T KAYTE. ((Pause)).

That kind of procedure in that.

What vould have happened - here, you would recoive thanlis a

contendation and then he would to back and report... and you had

not cone any vor, after ill.

Why the corneroation.

B. Vell, that is the raj it vas.

It vas the first iccruit icht in the Seventh Tourists Departzent.

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d. 108 It a0111 lad not stelad any remales.

1::: Oli, finas....

i. ile serocd, won in the Soviet Union; but as soon no he had on

said, "rnodbye"

There were many such cason, many such cases.

A. Violl, anymy, I sant to find out hos did you nor how tho mactns

were hold in New York, and particularly in a f(in English)) Libery

D. From the First Departuent, fron the First Department

1. From sirom.

From FIKJ.ISOV

Л.

kell, did you yoursel; no ovcr and ask him, asi. him how tulags wore

coing and how aro you vortin! with curdt."

(old you tell rentIsor) that you vere the case offteer, and tir

you had thien part in the case

в.

of course, I did not to over alone; i vent. with cus'nor to iind out

hoi things were coint, ounov, of course, as intercsted.

It simply was interesting.

A. Icll, what:

You all came, the wole section, and..

B. Do not ((tall:)) that way,

do not ((talls)) that say...

..ile made a conplete report on how they now vere operating viti

BURGI

D: No, there was no such full report.

---

## Page 22

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..:!

A. ill, nos did you find out any me

1 want to know.

B.

1an not.nole to insur you; lag tes you but the quortion -:

not know.

1. You nie not able, or you do not mut to:

i. No, I cannot.

scenuso. ((you 8ay) )"tie mole coction cane; EDiLISo made a speoci:..

Hell, of courts, wisy nit

Wint - lILISOV reportod to margone fron the second Chle?

Dircctorats that tiny mnd rocrulted ain and are torting

slth nte in

Ancrica; and then he advisod cocryone as to nor things vere coln

B. I have told you - there was no such rule; tint they toll,

in rare

cascs...

Well, that 1s how it vs.

Л.

Hell, you nontioned this carlier.

Anyway, I want

to know leon where you

found out.

B. Fron the First Departuent, the First Chief Directorate.

A. Iron where did you learn

that is refused to cooperate:

B.. Nico, fron the First Department.

1. Then did you find this out

B. Later, of course.

1. then, "later" -- in 196-1:

B. No; mostly Illicly at the end of 1956.

apart

---

## Page 23

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1.

hison and l vor

troyob intoried about this casc

I ..

No one inforced he.

1. ((Long pause)) you said tint tie BuRGI case as closed - how !:

you knew that the case ins closod:

B. Agnin, fro the First Depuitrient.

Hell, he had contact with the First Department; KOSOLIPOV worked ti

ic frequently came over.

Other esployees care ovcr,

KOSOLAPYInew this case.

cll, KOSOLATOY knous very little, although he probably instructed

you on a number of questious.

B. KOSOLApor did not instruct no.

Л.

You remenber how you wre confused over KOsOLpov in Finiand

((Pause)) Then, was it OSOLAPOV who inforned you that the case var

closed

B. That they had stopped

A.

Tion, all that you inow cane fron FOSOLAPOV

ith him, and he had refused to roch.

B. From the First Department; I cannot say for sure wether KOSOLAPOV

or FRISOV said this.

All I am saying is that ve had contast and that KOSOLIPOV niso lnem

about this case - because he vorted on the New York direction

(aaprayleniye).

A. Mon else do you know to corked on this case:

B.

Ido not know.

SEC.E

---

## Page 24

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to dot preter,fit not porthor

.i..

What eo mere tou not thir

I do not rentar.

well, ve tili conslur ie the Whol caso la closed: and gurr! i

position of the man the trutted Midt, did not cart and a

not in the positir thet you due trel, to soll jonesole no tarr

in - the facts coaplotoly contrndlet this.

You do not cron mat to tolt the truth about how lt happenee.

and tho sane thin does for the deat of lt -- 90 percent of rint

happonod and of nor it ocurred, you do not rant to say or jou

not know, tron the la tung of the caso until hunGls departur.

You do not know open the singlect thing -- con whore you got tr

inforantion about want happened In New York.

B. Froii

the First Donartient

1, I alroady havo told you that racerso rould not rive you lecturs

about that they fore dotnt with ln In New York.

n. I do not know mist a could or vould not do a tliat la you ovinto:

but - that he spoke out it - that is anothor thini:.

1.

Do not talli nonsense.

You once mentioned in your talk... then you were worklur in the w

what wore the fork in lous.

1s a case officer, how did the enployees work in the Sicond Cilef

Dircutorate and the KG!

3. From 10... 10:30 it spous to l? ((mianicht)) with a break; there in:

a three-hour "break" fron s to 3 ((in the evening)).

A. From 10, or fraz 10:30.

---

## Page 25

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that bore the workin house don

13o

ivertone worked until i or 6a1 do not resember now.

They started to word until d.

But there me an under to conduct work with the agents duri;

ovening hours.

From shat hour until 6

B. - From nine o'clock.

1.

Pros nine o'clock in the morning to otx in the evening; now lor

the lunch

"bronk".

B.

100 lunes "brook"

fron ono o'elock..

1. And until whon

1s. Until ?.

A.

Wint - for lunch

В. Усв.

Whore did you usually cat

B. Oh..•

1. Well, please -- you now the restrurants.

B.

Well, I ato there, at the lib, in the dinise roon, dowstairs, "

on the eighth floor in lullding a?, and soretires in the summer

home in the car.

Well, It is hard tu srj..

somutimos I sent sith the follows.

A.

How many restaurants are there in the old Building, #2:

---

## Page 26

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Pring I will toll you an on the loser level, there to one itoon.

then, thero in ero in the batment to that sales eso..

One on the eletich. Moor a that matus thres.

• And tie one ius renesis

no tel::..

...

moro in the thrgt an

u. On tho olghth floor.

A: Noxt:

B. Thon, you ho down to tho socond floor, at the third entraner on tr

second flocr.

moro 18 a lorgo dining room on tho firat floor.

A. Wart kind of a dintn, room is that.

c. It la a largo dining 1001.

Л..

Moll, thon, botwen tir firat and socond floors

No, this le on tho first floor.

OK; on the first floor, thoro is a largo dining room.

B. And the one on the olihth floor also in largo.

Thon, thoro is (fone In)) the basement - that is inside, tastile ju

tho courtyard.

1. Go on.

L. On the second flour, thre wiere you to down to the first floor, o

lstile furtlice dom the cprridor on the right sido is the dining

roon for kenerals - will, I began eating there only lo 1962.

A. and you went to the rint of them nli of the time

---

## Page 27

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n. No. 1 wood to to around In luin.

riceting on agent...

to snack shopg.:

11:

•A :

I an inliton about tron the time you started for!:ln?.

B. On tho elghth floor,

Thid on the flist floor.

I was on the bosoment mly oner or trice or

throo tines all it fr

Bo rood thero.

No How many dining room are thore in the new luilding.

B. I do not know; I novor meu nte at one of them, not once:

Л.

roll, porhaps you stopped by there once.

3.. No.

1: How many lunch counters aro there lu the old building

D. Everyono of the dining rooms that

I montloned has a lunch counter

How many lunch counters are there in the new building

B. I do not know.

How many dining roomn are there in Butlding #12:

B. I only know about the dietetic ono, the dietetic.

1.

since whon dild they stard calling it "dletetic":

B. I do not know; I also nover ate there, because it wis a dietctic

dining roon.

A. You never ate theie onc

B. Not once.

---

## Page 28

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A .

Miy..

13. Hull, because you cal whore sou nori, or in tom;

N. (XG) 1n milding 112, in order to run over there.

" dust to cat thoro

No.

Look, you try to 10 nut to cat with some of your on fcllows, fro

the dupartment, the suctlon.

A. You wont to the forty Comtttce, the Kongonol Comittco; you ren:

:to cat....

B.: No, not onco.

A. You did not do there once

I. No.

A.

Well, what

other dining yoon are there

B. I do not know.

A. Restaurante?

B.

He used to sonetines run over quickly to the place across fron the

GASTRONOM •

You can get sonething to drink; there is a place where you stand up.

You could get sandwiches, cofice, particularly in the sumner.

It takes only ten minutes.

A. Apparently, they let you po there: frequently.

You could to there freely.

well, you do not know how many lunch counters and dining roons ther

are in the old buildin:, or in the nes bullding, in Bulldini: iie..

---

## Page 29

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1. I named thun for jou..

in the old buildin.

No but not correctly - tiere le one on the cachth; there du one l la

baserent; there is a dining room for senerals..

B. Dut ahlch one is not there.

1. You should know better ((than 1)).

B. I nanod four of them for you - there are four of them.

1. Since whon vere there four dining rooms.

B. "I cannot toll you

1. How can one bellove a man wig vorted thore for ll yours and doeg o

know whero the restaurant in the new building is, and how mary ticr

are.

B. I never once ate in tlic now building; I cannot tell you.

A. Well, did you ever take the clovator up In the new building.

B. I also did not go on the clcvator; we went there vla the seventh fi,

there Is also a passageuny on the fourth floor.

A .

What - did they not lot you into the new building

B. Thy noti.

When they checked our passes, they let us in.

Later, they adnitted us without checking passes.

A. Mat do you nean - they did not check passes later:

B. At the passageray.

---

## Page 30

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H.. Into tho not building

1.

llow.

B.. On the fourth and the scenth floors of the old and new hurldle

A. Alright • that is true.

That -- not once in ll yonis did you never do un in the clerntor

the new building.

B. No, I went vin the scent floor:

A. And you do not know wore the dining roon er the lusch counter la

B.: I never once wont thir to cat.

A. And you nevcr once air in childing #12

B. Not once:

Allave you rencaherod wiere the ninth entrance to cutlding vi? is

B. No.

A. Too bad; pornaps you micat recali there the entrance for tue Cit

Directorate of lories Troops sas - the headquarters in Pullulas

B. I know that the Border loops wore nt the second and third entranc

A.. there

mas their min hindeurters - at which entrance.

B. I do not enon; I did not i in the border Troogs; I vent to the

corder Tong only suit thaus in 1952-63, to tho new building.

---

## Page 31

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d..

Pid you co to the Clah Locamntly

so - Alio no.

1.

Well, now many tinee did you to there in il goars

1. Then locturch vero piron, lu the inity education system.

Hell, that kled of cormontes ale you attend thoro.

Givo mo one eranple.

8.: I do not rononber..

neuta bose Cholidst Day.

nich Chellat Days vero you there

111 of thon or not.

Do No, to my thulene, only cue this.

A. You were theru one tha. on Choctat Day:

B: Ono timo, to my thinking.

A• .

How often did your wic to

D.. I remember sho also uns there ouly once or trice.

A. During the miole tine you cor. married

In the solo tiar, yes.

л.

then did you process ict mass

I do not romenbur; to ny thlu:ing I even did not process Club pass

for her.

A. How did she do there, then

---

## Page 32

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1. You conlil not

vell, sithout o posE.

do My aro you rindug tale nonserse

B. I ma not tolling you nonsense, l a tolling you hor it can i to

Socrotary of tho Party orcantiation, SiriN'rov, not taen and toot

then 10.

1. Do not toll ma suminion. ((lou pauso))

How is it that you do not oven inow tho worklon hours of the

umployoes in tho contral apparatus of the do and the aGo ("0)

That is not-richt.

((Pauso)) You aro not right noout the working hours and mion they

chancod thom.

((Pause)) How can one esplain that you do not know

You vorkod thiero for 1i years nu you do not know the worktus toure

Bo I told you the working hours.

A.. It is not richt:

B. And in Intor yoars, untul o; with the introciotion of the seven-luti

day, until 5.

1. For whom was the sovin hour sing introduced.

Bo. It was another thin; tint l were required to nect the agcats in t::

ovcdings.

л.

I an asking you about the wor!lug day.

And that about the arents, 1 do not dispute.

You neot them at niht, and in daytine, and cvontaes...

---

## Page 33

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- 1=

13. It tho

later fears, me cocted forD antil 6; on Saturdose y

until 3.

A..

Men a "In intre your"

I8.

Appro:tatoly.

d not

remembor; 1 in not retaher.

1 de not coaber exnctl!...

tron 1.00

17/1

Mach dld thoy ntat vorilm: frou 10, 10:30

B. 1 bian working in narch 1913; it was that way thon.

it was that way botore no.

For your information the central apparatus of the lVD, the or.

the UGB novor startod at 10 or 10:30; thore never was such i sot i

splain why you do not know thnt.

B. I do nột know:

I tell you that we becan at 10 or 10:30 unt11 12

imat wore the vorktry hours in Moskovskaya Oblast ((Gh))

1. They bogan vort an how later, when we began working at o, they i

at 10 -and they finished on hour later.

N..

well then - how:

When thoy introduced the now working hours, they beenn at 10 and!

((thoy vocked)) until G.

B. No - until?, one hour later.

A. Hell, did you work from ? to

". In later years - now they works lntll 6.

You sco, jou aro confusing

CoUn

---

## Page 34

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1311

-

lun not confusins anytilny.

The workhr day mas liht hours; then it bochue goven louis

110w

A. licil, what ms the wortin: day for loakostyn Oblast prior to

1.14.

now not up:

13. from 10 until 7; and tion it was fron 10 until 8, in later tua:.:

A. Very voll; wint was the sot-up in 1953:

13. Noll, that I do not know;

I cannot say; I do not remomber.

1. In 1951

B. I cannot say: I do not tanow.

A.: 1955, 1050, 1957, 1913,

1059

B.. 10, 10, 10, no; I do not know.

A. Mat - nre you roing to continur to stato that you worked there

B.I vorked frun 1910 til January 1907.

1. Yeah, that is apparent:

You do not evea know at what time you went to dork of then you le:

B. Oh, we loft.

A, How do you oxpinin that you do not even know what the working ou:

Bero, what the hours are in the KGB:

B. I told you.

-SECRET

1. It 18 not right.

---

## Page 35

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B. What in you menn a lt li

not tient

I worend there and you wor lane je so not risit.

You sit nure, but I tal lordlor

Laird.

(XG) :

B.

Tell, s0e 1t sin you winti.

A.

I worked thoro niao.

I know how thoy worked and how lon: they worked.

I even remembur oxactly sirat up to now wion tho working hours were

changed - to visat, lins, miy, and ly mon.

( (Paurs) )

mo introduced tho shorter day:

no changed the working hours

on what bagis:

B...

It was the decision of the Gossciment.

^.

Whoso:

B. The Council fo Ministors.

Well, all of the cmployoon bran to say, "Woll, thante."

B. It vas the decision of the Council of Ministors, the docision of thr

Chairnan of Council of linisters.

A.: Who

B. Voll, I was not at the

meeting of the Council of ilinisters.

OK, thanks.

the KGB.

The samo thing oes to your sorl -- you vore not in the orrans of

You could find only ond ansrer - "I was not at tha mooting of thu

---

## Page 36

104-10227-10006

Conell of Mlulatous."

il. Pal nok Me a "Mari".

"Dy declalon of thie Comall of ilintstern."

1l1 of the employces still say tians to this nan.

It 18 intcrestiny -- a man so worked there doos not even knot wit

the working hours nic, at what tine the peoplo worked; he docs not

know the usputy linister, and does not know tho CISU Secretary #'

was Doputy Minister.

What do you uny to tint.

((rauso) Well, whnt - are you stili coing to continue to toll te

Iairy talo.

13. I nu not tolling you fairy tolos.

is.: About tho vlto cult:

B.

Noithor walte nor kiny.

1. Do you renchber your mandanthor telling you the tale about the

«hito calli

Thoro was neithor a heginning nor an ending.

Do you know this Russian talo.

B. I havo hoard it.

A. Well, It is the sane thing with you. ((Pause))

You already have becoic so iccustoned to lying and not tellin: tic

truth, that it has hecond a habit and makes no difforonco to you.

•I congidered you to be smarter.

B. ((Pauso)) I know thnt you can throw sharp words at mo.

---

## Page 37

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- 1.1

You ask for it to there ls nottitar cino to do.

Whai can 1 nag Mion dou do not know want the worktnd lours

the KGB:

What olso can a say.

Ment'

2.

In Intor yoars, fron" to i; botore tunt, they worked until ?. anni

in the becanning, shen t beian sorter, we worked until lo, sta?

tince hour "broak'

That mich you havo told he is utter nonsense and llos.

And you do not know.

It you had over boon there, you would nover hnve said such nonsons:

I purposoly assed about Moskoustinya Oblast, and you cot ta still

doopor...

1º o:

Tivy begin, they bust, at 10; thoy begin at 1000; they finlan one

hour lator.

((Pnuso)) Mion you comploted the Instituto of International rolati

mat kind of an enhica did you recolve.

On finishing.

Bo: I recelved the em lem constrerably later, considerably later; then

I returned - in 1957 -- 1 reccived it.

A. What kind of an coblem vas it

B. It was rho bic-shaped, ray-colorcd; thore sas the seal of the

soviet Union -- hrone; and on It was "I:10" - not "GIAO," but "Tro

three lettors: Institute of Internatlonal Rolations.

A. Won did they bentu riving these oblems?

B. Mion I Iinished the Institute, they nore not being riven.

They began to give the later, ta 1057, 1953:

---

## Page 38

104-10227-10006

A. More precisely:

n. In 1007 or 1050--1 an abal to tell you conctly, maybe in lo

• 1 conenbre tant i went lin

" tallow employec of the Sout

Departoont, Subtior to ret it:

mat 1s the ifference betroon the onblon of a person cho o

finished the Univorsity ad that of one who has finisied the Inati

B. Nell, that ta the diffcrence.

mere is n difference in the color, and on it will he printed

and tho color.

Of courso, "AGU' will be on It; but I have in mind.

?. Tho color is different, but i do not remombor shat color the dous

And (the Institute)) callen to tray, like a diplot's untcol

the color of a mousc.

1:

When did you complete the Institute.

B. 1050.

A. 1050; and did you recute au enhlem

B.

I recolved it in 100' -- whon they rave me the enbien, they put

stamp in the diploma, Indicating that an cablon has been taven.

A. There must be.

B. (16) .

1. Again - how do jou inin tiat jou are not tolling the truth.

B. I do not know what you have in mind that is not the truth:

---

## Page 39

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1 In ted these do you peerine did cablen.

M the Guruth Anpartent, In 110.cd 111

J351, 1os.

"Tae Procedure for decolelue dendente Ainblons for Persons Mis Sarr

ta.,

Genduated Iron Soviet Institutions of Higher raucation: Streal

January 1061... Since I January 1051, a uniforn sendenle calist Ans

brun introduced for all condunter sinco 1017 of Sortet Institutter

of ligher. education.

"Thoy aro given with the diplom, in corenonles, to maduates of

the institutions of higher equention by the rectors of, upon thot:

instructions, by other connies.

Porsons who graduated fron institutions. of higher crucation heror:

1061 rocolvn the aendente cubions in those institutions tron tater

they nt ono tino craduated, or lu a sintlar acadente institution,'

tho institution of kleher education fron which they gradanted 1a ne

in operntion:

Persons who live far away froil tho Institutions fron which tiey

rancuatod may receive the cubles at the nearest siuilar lustitutli

in which the unform acadente cabion has been introduced, on the

basis of a declaration vitliout instructions fron the institute now

in opcration.

In all casas, acadcite cublcus are issued only to citirens tho

havo tho original documents of their graduation fron au instituttor

of higher education (dunlon, cortificates).

"No other documents of any kind may be accepted as the basis for

Issuance of the eublens."

Thu Academy of Scionces of the Verainlan SSR, 1963:

B.

I received it men I was working in the Seventh Department; I went

with a follow worker, with DirIKOV; in 1033, approsinately.

A. They still wore not in elstence.

B. They were, they vure.

---

## Page 40

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How can we continue tal.in.

?. I tell you hoy it de, and

toll me it was not.

i. It l's a statuto.

Do Well, 3o vat

That it is a statute.

A. Tiero lt la said then they vere lutroducod.

B. Well, wiat:

that'

And you say somethine introly diffcront.

B. I rocolvod it carlier, not ln loot; no, no, no.

"A. How could you have accelved it carllor.

3..

Becauso I nlrendy vas sorting in the First Department In 1001, s

I recoivod it men I vass workint in tho Seventh Dopartment, worn

in the Seventh Dopartient, prior to going over to the First

Department; appro-inatoly 100s.

A. I would agree with this lf you had completed univeralty or i mill.

acadeny; they gavo them there.

And for all the rest of the institutes, It was introduced in 1961

As you sco hero....

D. Instituto of International ficiations.

A. Do not norry - we live people to vero at the Institute of

International Relations, and tucy now when and how they gave thor.

?. That is good; that is very wood.

---

## Page 41

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Ton nam note to too, rang do 196a.

I correctly told jon that li vas approstantols 1006.

A. You Inalst ou soar momscho that nover existed.

11. Mo, tunt do the way it tia.

No If you mun an cror, it youdscried i: in T0Gt, thon say so.

B. No, no, no, n0 --bienise I recator: to voro sitting in a inn

room: right, rtiht, ilott:

Vell, of courso, you vero foolinr around with tourists the mote

ting, and now you hare forcatten that you havo to say that min:

•wero

working th tho Firat Depirtient.

And that Is Miy you have to "pusi" the Tourist Dopartment, to ma:

It in, to confiin..

1131

B. No, I only sald that bueause ((Laughs)) I went thore sith a fellati

worker fron our section.

A. It is not important to ne with mo you vent; it is important to

know wich they vre introduced ani men theycould have been mire.

P. I. sald, yes, I rocolved it prtor to 1901, approsimatoly in 10g

1. ((Pauso)) Now we will talk nhout how and wat school you enters.:

In Leningine - no did not eintsh that conversation.

To last thic re spoke in tallied about how you coupleted the

Gestornnt, st tho mining Institure.

Well, with God's help, you received a certifieate or a docurent

that you had completed the ninth trade there -- you told now,

PiCt

sonicond's help:

You vent to Leningrad to study; to mich school did you ro.

3. To the Wary Preparatory School.

---

## Page 42

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•i .

The conplute mino.

the beningrad linvy breparatory school; were ras lt altuates! In

LenIngrad.

c. I do not renember.

Mant lind of a school was it, and to sas necopter ly the school

D..They could accept pouplo to had comploted the seventh crade, tic

olflath, and the ntnth.

Upon eraduation fio the school, the student could ofther loajo for

civilian lifo or no to tho Deer hinaily or Frunse schools.

1. In what year tao that then.

B. In 1911.

1. In 1914; how old vero you?

B..

I was not quite 17.

1. You were not yot 17.

B.. About 17.

A. Well, to sent you there.

How was this done.

B. Mien I arrived fron Balu, the question of my schuoling vas decided

by fathor, his asaistant, and the sinistry of the Navy.

Ten, it vas decided that after my escape, that I would complete

thr oth grade and then they would accept me in the last clnse.

---

## Page 43

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d. In lentnerad a you could line rose there to too mdnti aris

They bad, as you said, tho son, ate, and loch rindes.

33. Mo school had not yet bech ormatred.

you say that a docision was'nnde; that a you yoursele d

rant to no there'

No. No, I wanted to, I santod to, but

1. Nell, how did you not thoro:

You alrcady lind a possport at that tlae.

13. No, I had turned it ovir to the Ministry.

.. To which Ministsy:

N. To tho Peoples Countssarlat of the Nay; I ravo it..

1. To whomi

•Do I do not roncuber; it was dons through an assistant, secrotirtes

I went from loscow, I had in my possession.. woll, like inetruct.

11k0 a conmandor's orders.

A..

well, wint other document were you supposed to have.

1. Nothing more.

A. (XG); you alrendy vero moro than 16 years old.

B. I had turnod in the passport; I eld not have a document.

I lad something like a connander's orders, directing a student to

the leningrad invy Picparatory School.

A. You had nothing wore.

---

## Page 44

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P. Nothin: morn.

A. Did you havo a birth certiflente with you

TB.

No, I did not take: it alon:.

N. Then when you went in fantasend you hau only an order to thia in

school.

Who isoued this order.

B. Soncone from the peoples Coulosartat of the ravy.

A .

who signod it.

13.

I do not remonber.

A.

well, you arrived in lentagrad at the rallway station; p'obably

tho ploco of paper that you had cavo the addreas to salch you le:

supposed to 1o, how, and smon to soo:

B. I sought out tho lavy Ixcparatory School.

I showed up, told then I hal arrivod.

1. In what montli was tits.

B.

This was at the end of starr.

1. Well, tho end of suwer - again, this stretches our understand!!

of the time.

Ble I cannot tell you fur sure, because I do not reneuier.

A. The ond of surmer; wat is that - lugust.

D. August, Septenber.

---

## Page 45

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1. Doninrad had just dorcally ben Albernted foo tie blockade.

N. Very voll; then yeu began to study

B. No.

I went with a group of rindento to cut lumber.

A. moro:

B. Outalde of Longand, lordid liaren.

A. How far was this front lionthern:

B. I do not rencabor.

1. Ung It 300 kiloucters may, 209, 100

B. I thine lt wan more thnn 100 kilooters.

A. How did you do:

B. They son't us in trucks.

1. In trucks.

Whnt also did you hire with you:

п.

1 took... I loft the rood unifoin behind... took an old onc.

Furthermore, I receded a vor: uniford there.

A. Mint a did you hare tro uniforms:

3. I had the one that as tarued at the school ta Bau.

I. had tho one that I had had mado.

SECRET

---

## Page 46

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Mine "aroma thorn"

caber

then there mis anotice

there tag also - aloat

To monitore asay and little ctarton: t

station vas complotely dunoltshed.

But there were you stayin;

when jou wore in the forcest.

Nọ lived in tonts.

Hot wore thes honted

Do They absolutely Here not bented.

ii a

Toll, what a- you vere took for three wonths, ond you ute mot

any licatin

to te core not there thirve months, anonth and a half or two.

" ::

%.

carlier you said you vore there for moro than three nonths. (frus

Ten, you lived in tunts, and they voro not heated.

To 380.

1. Ho: long sere you tharg

B. A monti and a half - two.

1. mat.

You told the doctor you word

ticic for nore than three noutls.

B. I do not rosenber.

•1.

Wat -- (8io you want we)) to road to you - that you sald to it.

SEGMET

---

## Page 47

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This was only a month acros gost.

2. Ims there a month and a hole two.

1. You said three-four montas.

Bo dor you will say st::

1. No; I ar ropeating tant you sald -- you sald that you tore more

two and a hall, three, three and a half, and four montis.

Tien, you were there one and a inlf-two months.

mon did the studies in the school borln -- at the one tiler you.

entered:

3: Classos starled later.

.1.

then vere they supposed to stait.

3. They voro to start in October

1. nell, they vere to start in octobor

B. Thy began them,.. at the beginning of Novembor, because secool

not

facilities vere/ready, there wns no wood.

A.

Miat did you study at the borinning. ((Pauso))

Nell, tell he that you vere studying in tho third course at this

school.

B. ((Pause)) Litcrature, russian.

A. That elso.

B. Several special alicloltres.

---

## Page 48

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mant kind

1l at houses, the llstory of the Rusalan Nary.

a Mint la the difference betwoon a crulser and battleshir

B.

Thee nic tro diffcront chlos, tuo of the birrest.

( (Truso)) That 13

the alfference.

May tu ono callou a battleshiy and the other, a cruiser

I. That is tho way they are nanod.

is thore aro the cutter, tie patrol bont, the torpedo bont, tu

travolor....

I am not talking about cutters, tinvolers, etc. - I am asili

wiat is tho differonce botricon a battleship and a cruise:

((Pause)) Why is one called ono thing, and the other, another.

B. ( (Laughs)) I cannot answer you.

What - aro you still rota? to insist that you studied at a tary

school:

B. Yes.

1. ((in Engllsh)) Mank you.

i3:

That did you say.

i. Thank you.

((Pause)) Did you ever car "palundra: Na polubase sheatra for!:

(Mara! A mop in burning on the prow:)".

B.. I have heard "Palundra"; I have leard "shuabra".

---

## Page 49

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Л.

My have you huyer met thi

(61.0., tie words))

tant does it nean a "Palunds! in polulate bitera fort.

13.

"palundra" -- that le "plundra".

A.

Ncl2, what is "palundr?"

B. An mlaria (trevora):

1. Furthori

What does tho exprossion, Palundra! Na potubake sivnbra ortt

mean?

B. I do not know la polubale hvabra gorit!"

I know "Dak", "polubal, Jut" (acar decl)", poluyut (artoreue!)

1. You also know "shvalza"?

B. ((lnughs) I know "shivabra" also.

1. Nell, wint doos this exprossion - which overy sallor knors to nor

B. I do not know; I do not Inow what this

shvabra norit" Is.

d. That - are you still toins to insist that you vere in a lavy

preparatory school:

B.

i was.

1.. Miat is tie difference between a crutser and a battleshin

B. Tio most powerful comint untt Is the battleship.

The next one 1s the cruiser.

The cruteer uny be a light one oi a heavy orn.

A. This Is one difference.

---

## Page 50

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i:.

In dio ship's cooplement, de dron, da mapons, the callie di

tlandr runs.

1. tell, mot olse dio jou sing. (frause))

Too bad that thes did not coplain the dittorenco betroon tis

ships to you.

They explain the alfferchee lu the clest joar at tho sakhter sere

((Pauso)) Mint other dectrilnes did you study in the titor tea.

the Ioningrad Novy Preparatory Sehool.

B. No studiod the coapass, tho sestant, well!

A. Tic coupaso 18 not a sepante disciplino.

B. This in navigation.

1. Then ono should say so.

Tho compasa is only an instrument

B. Right.

((Pruso)) Mint also did you study.

((Pruso)) Melt, the third yonr of study will be tho tonth craúo.

You nanod Russian, Ilterature, suveral spoctal disciplinos:

navigation, wat kind of ships

Yoll, what elso:

B. Astronomy, psycholony, nell, nuncat to God.

1. Astronomy, psycholory.., that olse

((Pauso)) How long did you study at this school.

Novenbor, December, Jariaty.

SECRET

---

## Page 51

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1.

80:

13.

fobruory: yon, 1 tours it haposned do, February

1.

Is It trus

Did you toll correctly how this happoned

B, Xes, I tas rounded.

A. Who Investirnted this mattor:

D. You soo how it was - In tho morning, Mion I camö to, I had n

tomporature, and I...

1. No conducted it aftor you viro woll:

B. I do not ronomber: none officer cano to soo no at thn hounttal oi

timo.

1. Who handlei and conploted thie Inveatigation.

B. An officer came to tho hospital to sco mo only ono time nt the

hospital.

A. How did they find this offleer to shot you in tho hand.

B. Toy did not find lin; they did not find him - I did not toll (e:

nano)) .:

A. That cannot bo.

B. I told thea that 1 found In the attle... I found....

A. Cust tollio: ne mairy tales an that they conductod an Investiat:

Is a military solino! In such a manner.

you sound in the atlir..." int

SECRET

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micro mere gon

In n: comp:

Or in prison

Colly they not cuplain anything to you:

1s; May do you tall that vay.:

A. Bienues things Is nothin: clse s ran say.

You know ton order of thines in the soviet Unlon -- and, partleilari

mon the son of a Ministor has boch shot in the hand...:

1. I told them that & found in the attte... the thine is that mony o

tho follows rought runs from the work ((in the rooes))

A Lot us borin fron hors.

Thoy would not ass about tho attle; thoy yould ask wacre vere you

that ovoning.

And, then, the investination would bogin from there:

moro, with Men, how, want, ton

"((D's surpanc)) as not here today", if you vore ((n's surnano)):

"Ho was not in

school'

"And with maor did le ro"

"IVANOV, PETROY."

Then they wild ask their then they would find out more you were

and that you vere doing, and wo ras thore.

You do not ever. know this licutcuant, this girl, nothing and no on:

Mnt.wore.you trinitor at this party?

B. He were drink tas vodka

A. Mint elso:

B. I do not rencuber sat also there sais to drink.

Probably no uado our ora leer (braga.

A. Miere diú you hug the vortia

---

## Page 53

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- 71

B. In a storn

and on the blast market 6 underrand), becauso voti

vas rationed.

A. The thing that you see llttice all of theme sterles,.

itt.

I do not want to hear angriero.

vell, you de not have in.

1. Well, Bocaino it does not "it in mugway.

If you accidintly shot yourseta, then say so.

B. Woll, I would say; but cat differcoco doss it sace for us one iny

or tho other.

A.I de not know.

moro i8 a dliference.

D. Absolutoly nono.

2.1

Iwould like to know wat tho differenco is.

po not try to prove to no that it happened that notains, tiat vor

just found it to the nitle and that vas all.

B. The thing is that the heado of the school mado a search of the

school, of personal belon intes thy voro scarentng for vernons...

((XG)) ((A and I spea: at the sase tice.))

1. I as not sayin, anything amins: that, but t could not mauren ton.

they would carry on an tirestlation and not cariy it thou tr

tho cnd.

B. I did not even Bion li ai tis school -- en officer spots to

thae and titl that, the attor is cloud.

---

## Page 54

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1. mat hospital tire you li

it the bars longing underteent hare (araga Still on peel

juritals lutand.

4.

How long were you tha

Do I sas there alone tire wood, shout a aonti..

ho Did your nother ond rather cone to see you.;

П. Но, по:

1..

well, wint diu thor not vant to sco you; porhaps you rare near

death.

1. Holl, t wroto thon a letter that I had hurt my hand a littlo bit

A. Wat happennd aftor you loft the hospttal

b. When I ms ottil in the liospltal, I prote a roport roquostiny that

I bo trion off the rotin of the-achool, and -- through father'o

frionds = talke vere hotd I think throuch MInuTS, the command?

In-chief -- nud an order varuent to the school to tato me off the

rolls and to rive mo a dorticicato.

put they ilinot live no a ccrtificate, but sent it to tho clty

--

Militory comissartat, and the city military conniesarint sont it

to tho rayon military consentat -- at my place of residense -

whoro I vas mpposed to livu.

A cortificate, even tro cortlicates.

May I snoko.

...

Y0s.

Whore was the cits milltary comissarlat located:

B.. I do not remember.

---

## Page 55

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oh. lilitin....

of Me cilitary coatssarint

name did you have to do there.

le mihool; I received the doris:

fron the school.

My the outh

the nilltily Coonissarint, and

not directly fron the

school,

Ment does the military commissariate have to do with it

You wore not being called into the Arny - you were still too you:

B. fiell, that is the way they sent about it officially.

1. Tien, officially, they sent the documents fom the school to thu

milttary comissariat

B.

To the Clty milittry countssarlat, and the city military commissar

aftor I showed up there -- sald that. 1..I showed the certifieate

that I was furnished with living quarters on Tolmacher; they selle.

certificate to the kayon military commissariate where Tolunelicy st

was situated.

1. Moat did you recold at the rayon military commissariat.

mant did the rayon milltary conmissariat five you.

B. ((Pause)) They Have me a document saying that I had gone through

the 8th, Oth, and loth mrades of the school -- this was onc

docusent.

And the sarond docunent was on what kind of grades I got on. the

subjects I studied in tue lota rrade.

A. How could they alve you a cocuent that you had been in the ath,?.

and loth trades.

You were not in

the oth tride there.

---

## Page 56

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".

well, I began studyle ti.ot...

tell they save it to mi.

A. Tuen tho rayon military coalesariat losted cou

iniltented

you ind been taüy lay.

In wich school!

D. In tho Baku davy Preparatory school and In tho leningrad Peschoolly

A.

hant olse tas written in this cortificato.

B. ((PRusO)) I do not romembor, I do not remembor.

A. What else did military commissarlat cive you:'

B. I do not remember, l in not rehember.

A.: I do not see any basis for the nilitary commissarlat to do anytair?

You wore not being taken into the Army -- you were not of age.

You had nothing to de with the military commissarint

The school could have sent it to you at home or you could have conc

there and gotton a cortificate that you had studied there; that is

all:

Very well -- you very at military commissariate, and you recelved

a certificate that you had studicd at this school.

Nothing more.

B. There was wother Jocuncht - on my marks in the 10th grade.

A .

well... in the loth grade.

low, tell me how you ircried your passport, and

how you were

registered.

B.

That wonnn tho was the residence nanager for the domitory -- she

processed it through the militta.

And then, I recolved a passpurt.

---

## Page 57

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Si!.

mat Hind of documents did you prosent a 1f you did not present

then to the Malltin, then to thile mand ee in order to recotic

passporti

B. A copy of

the barth certiftonte. the errilfleates fron the school,

the cortifiente tron cue telshutleta.

A. A copy 18 not ncceptable.

Only. the gonulne birth certificats may be sulnitted at the Passport

Desk:

If it 1s lost, you have to have a ducunent stating that it has bern

lost.

B. I am telling you as I

remomber It; 1 an telling you ag I renonher

1. 1

And these documcnts, plus the cortificates fron the tethnkun.

A. The birth certificate, the cortificate fron the tolhntim - that

you

are studying therr or that you have entored therg as a studant.

B. ..Thnt. I lind entered there, and then, the second -- fron the

tekhnium, that I have quarters in a dormitory of tho tokhalun, or

Tolnacher Strcct....

A. This will be considered

the place of residence.

B.

Ycs.

A. What olso:

B. ((Inuso)) That was all.

A.

((Pause)) will, you had to present a photo.

---

## Page 58

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- so.

IS .

I filled out some stud of n

tora, of course.

A. los how many prars la the prosport issued.

B. For Gluo yours.

A. In approxinately wat month g

pansport?

It that you recolved this flve-yon

B. I think lt was at the cid of larch... approximately...

80...

A. Ho will write down "larch 1945".

• ((Pauso)) My dld they ilvo lt to you for flvo years.

D. I do not know why; I did not not them.

1. Aro you sure it ung for live years

I. I think that it was for five ycars, yes, bucauso after I had

comploted the Institute, I exchanged tho passport ono thue:

A. Thoy did not give five your passports as first passports at that

timo.

Now they do - in accordance with the new decroc ((rivinr)) elve-

yoor ((passports)) to persons 16 years old and older..

Then they give 1D-yenr passports, and then 20-yeai passports, and

then, unlinited ones.

B. I never once hard ((of a passport)) for 20 ycars...

for 10 years,

and then

an unlialted me.

A. At that time, they were not alvin §-ycar passports.

B. ((Pauso)) Mie only thiny: I can gay is that shen I ras at the

instituto I once crchanned

the

passport, tho perlod ran out at the

end of my tino at the Institute.

---

## Page 59

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Meredora

1. woll, do you cemeador too man the cator of the schest

lie Too not racember

Do you cencaber the chied do the director of the totarter

8.. I reneuter it vorg woll; do emion a pipe; let us see de wat war

he called

I have forgotten, I have for otten.

1.

what was the tatamtand called:

Mar Rentegrad Salbull in 1222131m.

....

what kind of courses were niver

How many courses

??.

It was a foix-joar school.

What do they teach ticer, lu the firet, second, third and

Courty

They recept students at the technllum after siven arides.

Tho first and

second emises a for two years -- comblete the cor::

for the toath grade; aud then in the second course the spectal

disciplines -- for example, streugth of materials -- already beca

And then there was nity hull destgn, In the second course:

then,

theoretical nechantes.

There vere several disciplines.

Bit the basic special ulschlines mere taught in the third and

fourtin courses.

---

## Page 60

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::.

Mirz

Tall, what dis set

2228 15"

;:.

A.. Mt 18 cudled in thlo disciplln

1. TiraTed)) It is connectou with ligher mathcantics, higher wtiri

It In connucted with Micher unthuatics; I do not remenber.

A. Do you romenber the lewton binontal formulas

13.

I do not rencaber.

Do you remember anything about triponomotry

What kind of a sclonco is tint

il.

Maturnaties.

A. that 18 trisonometry

r. Mathematics.

1. vell, what is trigonomutry -- Miat Is studled.

((Pause)) Have you ever huard "stnus".

B. Sino, costhe, tangent, co-tanent.

Well, secants.

B. Sicants.

bore.

---

## Page 61

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tanton, rector cil..o

d. Hell, anyway, what do tary stade do "strenth of uateral

Do l de not trainer, 1 sio not remator, l do not reneabor.

1.

well, eill you rchether mold cant jou stuated ta internaton! lar

the institute, le you are circe a number of nuctitions.

B. I will try.

1.. Ills you remember.

B. I do not snow.

1. Wiat lu international la: concerned with.

what kind of problems nre studied.

What 18 Included In the field of Internatlonal law - bristly

((Pause)) Noll, tony we will take up the study of a new eclone.:

a flold in which there are

a great numbor of spcclalists, called

In tornational law.

"nut doss interentional lay cral oith:

B. International lonl rolations.

A. But this araln... Intornational relations, intornational iny - t:

1g the sams thine.

B. Juriediction on an international scalo, betweon states.

Or. between -- let us saj -- a private person and a state.

r, lot use ray, alpacallo lanunity a this also 1s rolated to.

international law.

A. Just a minute.

It is possible to

talk about this more briefly a nithout bringi:

un all of these detalls;

sat does tho science of International

---

## Page 62

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• 1.

10::0.

A. Thaen, 10:30, d0r jure

I ldo not remunbor exa.dly -- 10:30, 1t. 1800ins.

A .

maon, 10:30, lt Recos.

1i.

YCg:

it secms ((50.)) .

1.:

"It seong" - cross jourseli vaen "It scens".

And unt1l 12. ((inlundent)).

If you are not dethined...

1. Is one 1s uitalned, hi eon slt tioro all narht; 1t dependi men tir

opcrationad. work.

rut, the workin hoursi,

ng such.

B.. Noll, the workini, hours were until i2.

But how was 1t.

.. .

reoplo... at i or 10 heiore 12... "Let us so now."

At 5 bofore 12, Venlauin KOHLOY calls - "Come over."

Ho calln the mole soction and alscusans sone questions.

.

A. At whnt thac was the

breat:".

B. It scong it vas fron j until i.

1. Then, when you bennn wr: in the orrans, there wore such vorkln!

hours.

When did they chande the vorstng bours.

1. Y do not renenbri exnctly.

To my thinitng, a yenr later, in 1954.

---

## Page 63

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deal clin:

((P9190))

Mell, ver will.

for laternattonal 1n%

B. Standards, cuntons,

aunts.

A. Yes: want elro.

B. . Convontions.

A. Go on.

D. Doglelone of International orcaulzations.

A. Furthor

B. Lays; the laws of countrios, of states.

A. On 25 January 1901, curtas questloning, you sald, I cane

there:

fInlahod the Institute of Internattonal Helationg In 1949°.

Well, I nu saying it just as you did - word for vord, with arters;

etc. -- do not pay nttention to this; this is what you said, not

just southin!; that vas written down e it is what you sald.

"I was in the Juridient faculty there; a speciallet on Internationa

law, and I Epecialized on the United Statos"

...

i. Thero is already an error there -- shun I cuterod ((the school)),

thero still vere not any laculties.

The facally began wich I was in the f. third. ) year.

1. I am tollins you wat you said -- It ls not my creation.

B. Noll, alright.

A. "Mell, bow, fron the Institute, I stuelled at the lavy school and s

forth.

---

## Page 64

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•..

i to

• to the Inathlute.

1. I'c:.

I any that tan readted dust no you sale it, word for word.

Bernuvo It nay do that you started to say "hos I studlod, (fuse.

palor to the Institute aid so forth.

I do not intond lo cittlelie this conversation as a convermatt.

For ic, how, before toc. Instltute I stucled at the Nary. nesosi

so forth.

"In tho borinning I was at the special school, after the acronti

crado.

Tien I studled in laku, In the preparatory school; I wan traasa..

to n Frunze school.

1. That was the lenturad Reparatory School.

Л.

W'cll, Ilston

"The war ended; we did not yet a chance to to

batto.

"To only thing is that they threw us (flato battlo)) when ve goes:

Baku.

"rhero woro difficult battles near Tuapso"....

B. That 19 not true.

((Laughs)) Hell, I did not vant to (1G) that I ran aray.

1. Ck; Ilsten -- "They throw us, the students, (finto battin)) near

Novorosslysk"

....

B. Kalt, just a minute.

Fron the senior class.

A. I know that; I know

that.

B. Yes.

Then, "thcy throw us ((into battle)) near kos...

near Novorosstys!:

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I ra Bajing that la rat

"Minne word!

diffiailt battles:

"We tool: part in tree battlog there.

"Tin

badly on thcre were lots

ist wint iou said.

sari Bald of us left."

B. Exactly. ((laughs))

and the tollons... you luor wint.., sinco that thre, this practic.

was stopped -- because tie, students to were to be future officers

porished like flles.

A. "One third of the students ms returned to the school."

B. Right, one third of the mole proup that was sent from the merci

1. Now it 1s funny for you.

B. Well, well, & ran away.

1. Well, why did you say (itunt you tous part in the battlus)), You

should think about how old you fore and start from hero ((ty toll

the truth)).

"To dar ended.

And I did not finish the Frunze School; after (1G), I was denob:!

What do you acan a demobillied.

B. Well, fron the school; I ins de-registered; this is a demobillantli

1. Well, you understand...

B. My denobilization.

Because we had triien the onth.

^.

Tint could not ho; we alread; have spoien about this.

B. Ne took the oath - balieve no.

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## Page 66

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- 07 -

A. ie are not rotan do rotara to that subject.

"sell, saint was 1 to 10.

"To be in the nilitary

"I dad not want that.

To study.

"Where:

"I sent to the Instituto of International Kolationg.

In 1015 I ontorod it and cinished In 1910, at the end. o! 1912.

"And then, the asstinents Connission nsied me there do you wan

work: '

"To Commission must ask.

"I sald. 'I as a military man; civo no sonothint closer to tie rii

'The MID duns not interest no'.

'Very well, we will soo.

B.. hy did HID not interest me.

I s111 tell you - because fron the second eraduating cings sin

only 10 porcont.... Pol the second graduating class.

A. Alright; liston - HID docs not interest no.

•Very well, ve will see; te will call you.'

"They called ne - thoy called me to tho MGB, to Personnel

"ARAXUNOV still' was in.

"Personnel called no; they talked with me."

i.;

B. Right.

A.

They called ne to Personnal of MGh; they began to talk with me aù:

"this and that.

"Ir. the MGB.

"I said that i was not very enthusinstic."

One sord was not understood a it wis either the gord, "agiro",

!!•

"not very cutiusiastie to entor."

"liell, I salu, "You see..."

"Ne talked, and than they lit

no to.

"Altur that, astor a day of too, l tas callod to the Giu.

---

## Page 67

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"Cond and vo% ln the find co information', ducy said.

"And then they said, "Do you went to be here in the Center of do for

sant to study in our solool cr co to a peripherni aron.

"I said that sos stile gear can i let me start lia morta

aren; that is, not in. tar fentor... not in Moscow.

• 1

B. Right.

A.

"At the sane tlo..

I do not know what those words mean; mayhe you vere going to say sor

thing olse.

"Well, they said to me, Well, we can now offer you leningmd or tie

Far Last.'"

B. Richt, absolutely right.

A.: "And 1 ((chosc)) the Far Bast.

"I went to work in the Far East.

"Thy have "I

told you this

"Because I did not worl directly in the Conter."

R. Right:

A:.

"Thoy vero very surprised that I nriced to co to the far last."

B. To the Far East.

A. "Thero, the conditions are very severe.

"I worked there... I came to "loscow on leave.

"Here, they proposed that I fo to the Initic area.

"I went to the Baltic nroa."

"In the begluning, to Goruauy."

1110.19

D. The; said "to Cerang", lut tri (5G) ..

A. "To the susnits, tasnite maso

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b. Sasanit: Isini.

A .

"On kneen Istrid, tuch ot Thy? latelligence Solat there Me

abandonod."

C. High:; evorgthin tortst.

cut I did not is too.

is "plut nored to baltle:

•. "Troy transferrod to abar herniad; it is called Soretse

D. Well, no - not Lentmand

It is an obvious cryor of yours-I could not anve maid betri

1. Mat is not so gror.

an obvious cror - hecure.

1.: moro 1s a bie diffcrence...:

i3, Ho, no, no; I could but inse said Leningrad.

I could not have sald tuningand.

It 1o an Divous: crror.

A. I have mado no error of any lind here - because aftor you sali. !s.

co --I cheated lt not mly by syscll, but with all tho otacrs.

3. No, no, no; there lu ai dirious crror, an olvlous error.:

1. Furthoraore, - tiere in still anothor error hore =- "taey tiner:

ferred no to near lunlucrad; It la called Soveta':."

B. Not Leniorrad, not Lintu rad.,. no -- Baltlys!::

1. Listen = I do not nut to....

B. tell, I could not hav: sold Leningrad.

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Understand a that lard.

*;:?

D. I au sellian you - homostly:

I could not hare sald... this is a ble question.

1. I pused the questlon, it menuse you did not say it -o you ate

it; that is for sure.

But then you say now tute ls a ble question, then 1 ((rcally)) 1111

Tuestion it.

"It is called Suvets.."

further, you sald -", the formor plilnu."

3. Baltlysk - this la the forior pillau.

Sovotsk is near Baltlyst.

1. I understand that you do talking nbout, but you said "Leningri"

not inliningrad.

Tell, woll, sell -- "Leniugrad"

should be noar ioningrad.

It is obvious that tacre is hore

why Loningrad that fillau

A. "And then, from there, at the lieginning of 1959*

B. I could not have..I arrived there in the summer of 1952.

1. Well, I ao mying ((readlog)) what you said:

I am not mal:ing

this up.

This is nord for turil.

I said, "vith all oi the criors etc., ctc.; perhays I did not put

In the punctuation here ma there

And they called me to toscow anu told nec. and fron thore it the

borinains of 100,. i vas callou to doscores and they told no tha:

"To NGB is calilar"... and they sald...

*Er now are taking a nunher

---

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B. lin, no, absolutely no.

I told ioü told i Care it 110

the to

CAtalier: 19+3

1. lan tollin: jon wint joe ald.

Liston further -- "Imid, 'Len:, 1 an

a soldier a Matever go:

order.

•Well, since 19d, I have been worklnd in these organs.

'And bofore tint, I me a mailor.

"But may do I tell all or thin

"Tant, at the Conter, 1 lnow... well, whoa:

"I "nOw VORONTSOY, DENMENIN; I knOw LOOSIN tho hondod Porsonnel:

I linow thero"....

B. TISlOV -- Ic licaded Intornation... a Viccaldniral....

A. "I know the chiofs of Intelligence of a number of fleets a on the

Clacl: Son, "AC\LAD-F; In the Far Enst, Capt First Rank MEL'HIKOy"

mat 1a tho pait of your discussion wilch concerns leningrad, you.

entrance on duty in the organs, your education, and so forti.

Of course, you have to draw your own conclusion.

There sas n basis, for all the porgone to spote with you carltoi

B. They did not bellove no, doing on...

A.

..And thoro is basta also for lu not only not to bollovo you, but

to talk about this question, in order -ons they say - to put

everything In ordor.

But you, in speakiag lth me, have gotten furthor in than out.

B. With you I

absolutely au sayin: (XG)....

i. And last.

B. To Saj low (1-2G)....

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...ine last tata: did 10d lig0r on 10d iricadly was one

I still have tae lurnme aptilt ee lt would lie better for juite jat

made the right concludon for paracle dron the conversatle 11?:

vero beld with you carter and thode converoattons watch fret

with you: tint you would mill playthe wille you still hast

opportunit;, althoul ll is does smaller:

Or you till have jonri to ltano...

". I can answor you that

absolutely....

I na tasand to renonber overytain: as 1t

wis.

want.

I have mald in all those dr:

1. 111 of theso days I have houn trylne to tall to you so voll ru

politoly....

1. Correct; I cannot say nuptuls against this; it 1s absolutely

tans

1. ...So that you undcrstand that I have no knife hidden agalot you !:

my coat and nove, did.

B. I cannot tell about that -- rout whether you have a tille.

Dut you havo an obvious tendeney to deccivo no into thinint tiri

+ ,

I nus not tolling the tenths,

tant I an playing a canc -- this is felt

in rycry conversation, in every conversation....

1. This speech you have just cald, your commentary, agatn convinees an

that you have no desire to tell the truth.

B.

I an tolline you only the tritis.

Misulutely, surely, 1 can lell jou that I an telling you the truti ..

I place my

hand on my hcart.

I have absolutely

no reason, no desic, not to tell the truth.

A. Quit raving this opinion of you's.

•-.. ..

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## Page 72

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-.

=. i

-.T0-

... Goodlys.

Cont la doguit 196% desiston) )

---

## Page 73

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- 7:

(013 104088 1005))

1. Hell, mat l8 ney ton;

•B. Mhnt 1s now today.

1. Yes.

B.

One or two more days 1lis yertcruay, and one can atg his rimoc, e3

the Ukrainians say.

A. A bravo:

B. A cravo; that is, a trave.

A. Well, I think that 11 you are loiny to continue lie this, that lo

tho way it will bo.

I am tolling you quite scriously.

That 18 the vay 1t w1l1 to.

Woll, aslde from that, are you a suporstitlous porson or not.

Today is Friday.

B. Ah... you mean the thirtcenth

A. And the thirteenth.

Some people consider this a lucky day; sono do not..

Well, with all of the conversattons I have had with you and those

In wilch they tallied with you carlton fer over a year, I cannot so:

that any fortune has mailalion you..

B. Yos, it has not smiled on mo

for 117 days; fortune has turned aray

fron me and shous its back lo ac.

A.

How long aro it turnid avay.

SEt.

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B. Fron the colet men tre tot ne to thie intel":

A. Nell, l thin's fortun tremoi aray to you long, lon: ago. -tof.

yois contacted is.

B. I cannot say that - l never had any unplensantness at wri oi al:

Home •

A. Well, I ranted to tall; with you about your rife and cilldier.

I do not think that this has ny essential significance • tie qu.a.

15 quite clear mithout this.

And, thcrofore, I du nut think ve nood' lose time on this question.

There aro a number oi questions

wo still could talls about, but tro-

what you snid before, during the interrogation, and later, viti ,

the ansvors to these questions have boch received; and there is no

reason to root around - Locause from all of these conversations t

have had, you havy dnt draw the nucessary conclusions, nud

"ou i.at:

displayed absolutely no desire to tell the truth...:

B. (XG) .

A. ...And borin a normal rolationsilp...

Furthor, the problen stands thus - I see no nood to continue tic

conversation further.

Today, I just have a fuw questions to asis.

Tell me. - 1s it true o" not =- and why did they call you to tho

CC CPSU:

B. LEGINA, the nother; tute a letter.

A. I have the followin in

wind you vere not a nember of tilo marty:

B. I think -- because of my father ((positon)) (1G).

A. Yell, your father - that is one thing; but there was the corsorol.

Secretary of the lonsool CC lso could have decided.

---

## Page 75

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3o Mo, ale wate the de no law do wuld sorow lofluence fatar an

condidate nenter of the Ce CloU; or, if It did not incluonce it:,

at lagt would speak to bin, and then facher could Influon.

1. Did your father tal; it over with you:

:3. Father knew everythtun, everything, and he sent....

The first thio he wont - ho vent to the Central Committer, it :

do not know with imom le spoke; perhaps cvon SHKILYATOV spo:. sit i

and the second tine,

someone callod him - not SilkINYATOY, ai cou

He told him to c0 screw hinsolf.

A. Uho told hin to go screw hlns.ll:

n. Father.

1. TO SAKIRYATOY:

B.

No, not SIlKIlYATOV - I said, unt SilCIRYATOY..

Soncone from the iP: (Contiol'naya partlynaya Tonisslyn --

Control Comuission)) and thoy sumonod me trico.

A. I do not thin!: that a candidnto member of tuc CC will toll an:

onployce to to screw ilnsell.

B. Toll, you sco, fathsi was sounthing of a short-tempered ran; sour-

tines wieh ic flared up...

once called VOROSilILOY; called his:^

provocateur in the Presidiu.

You know, when he flared up....

May I saoke.

¿. I do not thin': that in on! do aLRITOr that ray.

2.

well, not siluytror; mis tant the cirst perhape perhape it.-

SLIMATOr to son will site first tie; the first tier to

to tal!: vi!ti CC.

Tay snored him the letter watch TELEGIM srote.

33: 06 .

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## Page 76

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- ?:

They photod

it.

He rain

that there took tr

e" thines that sore trie, turtl

the ront mao dirt.

No well, want won theed that a lite

B. Well, At ves true that i man not lirthn with iser, tine I ai lost i:

and so on and so on.

A..

Tiell, whom did you scent the CC.

B. 1 Party invostintos, a Party Invustirator - CHITOV; sucl a nano 1.

renchbor.

Even tho follous used to sec it -- thero ung Party somber ren

ORLOY, ...

va... Vadin du not do because he uns not i Party Mont?:

And Vitally MINNOV, wo ines de and Augustina, vent.

A. Voll, in hich bullding vas this

D. Tals was... I will toll you now - I vont directly. to the Pass inver.

tic nain CC buildine.

1.

Whore.

B. I accolved a pass tu the main CC building.

A. Were at the main CC bulldin

B. You go cow to Nogin Square, boyond Kuybyshov Street, on the right

sidc.

The main building is on the right sido..

N.

Well, wheis is the Cl luented -- on thieh strcoti

B. From Dzherchins!:ly

Staret, itsoes dorn to login Squaro, leyond

Kuybysher Strect,

on titlet side.

SECRET

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## Page 77

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A. Well, tiere de: thee KD.

Do. I crunct toll you for sure is? told you that I only recoler

pans on my possport and mint tiere, two thnes.

1. Well, 1f you vunt thore too thus, probably you could rouette.

to tri la situated.

13. I do not renchlor.

A. Anú voro you over: in the pt at any other the.

Bo.

Ho, I vas not.

I was only at the exlts Comlesion Miich le not balond inylyster

Stcot, but beforo tuyhyshev Strect - Inside here is the kist

Abroad Comission.

One can no through the throughiy court or fron kujiyshov Strect.

A. Well, anymy, you do not indy wiero KPK 18:

You went to such a place of authority for the first the - you

must remember sonothing.

B. I tell you I rocoivod a pass on the first floor 1a tho main buile:

and went there.

May I smoke.

A. Yes.

B.

Well, they spole rudoly with mr the first tine.

I wrote down a nuber of questions.

And the socond time I went over I answered then in iriting.

A. Did you over toll. us about the hulletin of the KG3.

B. I d1d.

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## Page 78

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...i

A.

mon did tag booin to late dr bullaten

1I.

kell, there is she one nd another lullotli..

there are tro

builotins.

ard lssued ly dao second Chief Directorato.

Toy began Insuing 1d lu 1039-1000.

Hant ls it callod.

B. Thus are printed on a niacopapa, stampod top accret;

the bailctin

numbor....

1. Mint - you know of the bulletins losued by the second Chlot

nircetornto.

B. 805; ono

bulletta vich ls distributed to the Chalrin, tho nogue:

Chalitinn, the Chiefs of Directorntos, and the Chiefn of Departen:

of tho socond Chler Dirictorntes... only - neither to the frat no

the Third, witle the crooption of tho Chlofs of tho Directorates.

A. And tho second bulletin

-—-

B. And the socond bulletin tas also issued by the Second Chlos Direct.

for all opcrational personnel of the Second Chief Dirccturate.

•----

I co not thin: 'it ins read in the other chief directorntos.

And 1t wis sent to the WAGB; the KGB in the outlyin areas.

And they In tiwn... to the Chiefs of Directorates and Chiefs of

Serond Departnents - that uns the idea; lnter, it ras decido to

inform the oprintional personnel of the Second Departnents..

A. Well, to vorted on thi stait... No issued tho bulletin.

B. At the beginning it vas coustaco, the Analysis Departnont -- that

mas the Fiftenth Dopartnt.

Dut, In 1000, 1n tho contining of 1002, fros January, It ias in ?

scivice of the sloventh Diretion (magravleniyo).

SEGRET

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And, 1n addition, the mallo Degortrent enro then matertal.

Tonthor.., tho Eliltl Inalysis Dopartreut....

Л.

Do jou know to too: a direct ard actloo part in iscutor the hull::

and did nothing

olre

B. Well, in the Dlicitina there tre soveral enplojocu...

((19:150)) Id0 not renonher tie nanos.:

And thoy collceted anterial: througolt the Chief Directorato.

A.. How many tinus did you seo or road thu KGB tullotin:

B. Untll 1962, I road only that whlch was for the ontiro start of the

Sccoud Chlof Diroctorato.

1. Moll, I said tho KGll Bullottn, nut that of the Second Chlor

Diroctorato.

B. Ol, you havo in mind tic Colluction (Snornik) - that le anothor

thing; that 1o not a bullotin, the Collection.

A.

"oll, what 1g 1t callod:

B. It is called the Collection; tho illuhor School Issues it.

1. Well, what la this colloctlon callod.

B. Collecton; that is vint it lo callod - the Collection.

A. Thoro is sonothing. olse vitten on it.

B. Well, I do not remeuber.

Colloction is written on it in hold lotters.

This la printod in hoot foim.

A. Well, mat isind of a colloction is it?

SECRET

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## Page 80

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Tea tard

3.

1 to mit rounder Me incil? 113226402, Collectten.

it le printoo du loo dog to da Mirace School.

Give at least an ed! "'i Callection volch you coad co.*:

Frittun In lt'

D. The watertal Halng duto li Collectlon -e well, of course, 1t l4

sometaing different; wally care la an Introcuction ly the Chatsar;

or a Deputy.

Then tacro le au cichanto of curionces a ly a chlof of a directora:

or the Chiof of the Second Department in which thoy raiso one oi

another quostion, mhout cases, miout planting agonta, they rl'e

oranples..

1. Hell, SIvo me an example of an introduction tich you road.

B. Well, I do not renenber, i do not remombor... a politienl overton?.

A. Foll, for cramplo, that lind of case did the Chlof of tho VIndlir

Obinst KGB Diloctorate wite alout.

B. I do not romenbor. ((Pause))

Besides that, the Scenth Directorate, also issües... oven the

Seventh Dircctoratç... on questions of survolllanco, techniel

equipaent..

A, dau there 15 one issued ly the flist Directorato.

Bo. This does not to to the unerational porsonnel, but probably orly to

the Chief of the Dirt rate o the sario as the bullotin of the

Seconú ((Chief Dircetornic))... oly to the Chief of the First Chloe

Directorato. ((Pause) )

And that Collection... Ci tho cover of the Collection - under tir

sord, Collection tier. is the ladie of the Chekist.

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A. Dle you evor relor the tilat hadge.

il. No.

1. Well, you invo montlend thin ladge a how ald lt inpoon tiat you

pormitted such ar crier when you sald that, at the Inseltito of

Internationnl Relattons, you recolood the onblon in 1379

Honestly

In 105: ae that Is exnet.

A. Thero vore not any yot, and they mere not civior tlien to agrono.

В. In 1950.

1. Hell, how can you anilset

B. I inslat, lecause I rceakr.:. I remembor how I prepaied to go til:

BELIKOV waD Hong tine; dirst, and... and.., yes... No paid -- yc i

to pay for tho cables,

No had to havo the none: to pay -- I do not renenber tie arount.

A. But no one got then, rattace in 1953 nor in 1059..

в. По, по, по - 1n 1933.

Mandwin

A. I read you the decree

3. I do not inow there ars many decrces.

1. Very many of thei

B. lany.

A. You alroady linow that a sari rui

tin:c.

12ale car studied those at tir

B.11.241

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## Page 82

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the institute.

A. lin one la nailne a secret of til!.

is. Tils 18 absolutely no secrot:

The crason I am tollin! you me bocause

I acmcaior tint I ins sitt

In nilnigo dom -- 177 - 1 icienter....

1. That 1s not the liln on 1 do not

Care thee you mie sleilar;

simple quention is: how could a man tave Iccelvedan cmilen riten

did not jot calat

1. Well, they dild not wise any...

B. loll, thoy unvo... it tho maginules, they did not clo any : I

finishod In 1050; ties were not siring then; they did not gie

then lu 1051, 1000, 1909, 19540 10850 1959010 10 1959 tact tve

n. I'e1l, I do not tillu: la unu continue the conversation, bechuse get

nic contindletino, not only yourself, but the facts that hava in.

establisncd with 100 percent

cortainty - facts ve now like ou.

on fingeis..

You are trying -- for wat ruanon, I do sot understand, I do not

understand; and unl! for tile icases, caly for thin reasor, the

doctor talland with jou lor tro socies or sore.

Do you know way in ture with you:

B. lio.

A. To ustablish tr yo! m a inlf-ult o: sortal - only for that

reason did to tall tith ot

And no concluige thit you sore noraal.

SECRET

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d. мот во.

1. les- Recause le lu not rule for ce, lue too all of thie purres ti

nave corked till jou...

Joy have told such consen do jon think that ve will lot 21! o

thisinse throug, and tat gon san lo, kore as nuch as fou mant, as

much no

you rant.

You inve absolutely no conerpisor of mat te knor and how nuch we

know.

D. Of courbo, I do not inow -- that la nbsolutely richt.

I haun no couception di rug lind of what you low.

A. You cannot understand...

icll, lot us talk au man to ran - you flopped the very first day

you not with us in Genova, the first day; the first day you not us

in Genova, you

flopped.

((In Enclish)) Mint's nll.

I thought that you werc much

nore sharp-witted and intclligent ani

could havo understood this

long ago.

Thon you were just on your my here, I thourt that "in a couplu

of days ho will catch un to what is going on and everything will .?

difforontly"

:..•

B. But hore, the miole question is wrong fron the beginning f'at the

root"))...

You consider nc....

You do not understand the shilost things and do not rant to unders:

then.

(008i 08 iCel =14))

SECRET

---