TRANSCRIPT:REEL #3. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN, 28 JULY 1965.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/28/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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TITLE : TRANSCRIPT: REEL #3. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN,

28 JULY 1965.

DATE: 07/28/65

PAGES

: 871

SUBJECTS :

NOSENKO

DERYABIN

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JFK-M-24:F36 2001.01.31.11:29:41:417084: NOSENKO NOT

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(NBR) • ATTACHED IS HSCA STAFF REVIEW

FORM DATED 26 APRIL 1978. SEE F34 FOR KEY TO TRANSCRIPT.

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NOSENKO Interrogation

28 July 1965

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NOSENKO INTORROGATION

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28 JULY 1965

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Reel #3

28 July 1965

TRANSLATION

A.

How are things today?

B.

(: Concerning what?)

A. In general; condition; mood.

B. What kind of good mood can I be in?

I have been sitting here 481 days -- that is, 16 months; one year

plus four months of a second year.

(2G)

A. Is it a secret or not, how you are counting?

Why do you think it has been 481; why do you think that you are not

mistaken?

B. No, it is no secret; no, no, absolutely.

You understand; it already, so to speak, has been developed, as is

said, I have acquired some kind of prison experience.

The habit of counting, etc., has been developed, and it has changed.

Well, you understand, if I had counted from the very beginning, day by

day, and each day, I would have become confused, but having come to a

definite date, you throw out this date, but here you know: exactly a

year has been completed, let us say, the third of April completes a

year exactly.

A. I am judging by myself; I would have been lost, of course, being in

such a situation, I think; I would not know how to calculate accurately.

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B. No, so I have, this is my only occupation....

Then, you see, there is a whole series of ways (prichina) by which it

is possible to check.

A. But what did you have in mind when you said "prison experience", that

you had....

B. I had in mind that....

A.

...At some time had prison experience?

B. Never in my life, with the exception of the time I was in the guard

house.

I....

I have in mind that I... have developed... prison experience, therefore

((XG)) ((A and B speak at the same time))

A. ...A long time is necessary to develop and....

B. This is not 10ng?

What do you mean?

It has been a great length of time.

A .

There are people who sit in prison 10, 15, 20, 25 years, and even their

whole life; then, I understand, one will gain prison experience; it

develops; a person learns some other... but for you it has been only

a little more than a year.

B. One can serve time in different ways, one can serve time in different

ways.

You know, (XG) you yourself raised this question.

One can do time in different ways.

I understand it thus: a person is doing time; he knows why; let ug say -

a criminal, he has killed someone, or he has robbed a bank, he has

robbed a person, he has raped someone; he knows why he is doing time.

DEONEL

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Alright; a political offender, he knows why he is doing time, he knows

why he is doing time, and he has been given a sentence of 8, 10, 15, 20,

3 or 4 years, he counts off the time.

While I do not know why I am doing time, absolutely; when on the basis

of suspicion alone, when precisely only in my position, a person who

has lost absolutely, absolutely everything; I absolutely have nothing,

and I do not have anyone, neither friends nor, well, I absolutely am

alone, quite alone.

There am I -- a finished foul traitor, the most foul, who certainly has

already been sentenced to death; here I sit.

A. What are you thinking -- that the hangman's rope has been waiting for

you for a long time?

B. I do not doubt this; of this, I have no doubt.

A. Do you still think that... you will not find an answer to the question:

"Why are you here"?

B. Because they do not believe me.

It is the only reason.

A. If the question stands thus, I think that we might continue our

conversation; perhaps, finally, anyway, we will find, as I said in our

last meeting, we will find a common language.

Perhaps you will give me supporting information (podtverzhdeniye),

something other than what you said earlier.

The last time we began to speak of your arrival in Moscow in 1952, when

you said that you had arrived there from the Baltic.

I think that perhaps we will go back a little bit and throw some light

on one more question.

I wanted to ask you - before this, how many years were you in the

Komsomol?

B. From 1943 to 1954.

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A. From 1943 to 1954.

During this period while you were in the komsomol, did you receive any

Komsomol punishments?

B. For the whole period in the Komsomol, I had only one punishment,

received in the KGB in 1954 -- a severe reprimand and warning.

A. How was this written up?

For what was it given?

B. You see how it was....

A. We do not need an explanation; I know what you

said earlier....

B. In the Komsomol, no... I just want to say one thing - that the Komsomol

did not go into detail.

Apparently, such instructions had been given the Komsomol.

For using a cover document, an operational cover document,

for

personal purposes....

A. For the use of....

B. Operational documents for personal purposes.

A.

...Operational documents for personal purposes.

B. Yes.

A. And nothing more was said.

B. No.

A. And you remember this wording exactly?

B. Yes absolutely.

And the same wording was used when an administrative punishment was

SERRER

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given.

Nothing was said to me.

Only orally, several times at meetings, we were reminded of "moral

faults", "moral faults".

A. Why did the Komsomol not work it so -- "for immoral conduct and for

moral faults"....

B. Likewise, there was no such working in the administrative decree;

instead, it said simply for the use of an operational document or dover

document... Administrative punishment of 15 days arrest was given me by

FEDOTOV .

Exactly the same kind of wording was used in the Komsomol.

And Komsomol did not deal with.... the idea is that the Komsomol must

take this up with me in detail... how this came about... who...

what..

but they did not take this up.

A. Well, if you were a Komsomol member from 1953 to 1954....

B. Since 1943...

A. From 1943 to 1954... do you remember the month in which you became a

member?

B. I entered the Komsomol in 1943; I do not remember the month; I do not

remember.

It was in 1943 in Baku in the preparatory school, yes.

A. You do not remember the month?

B. I do not remember.

A. Was it in winter, summer, spring, or fall?

B. No, I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember.

I am afraid to say.

C00C

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I can make a mistake, because I will be guessing, and I am afraid to

say.

I do not remember, I remember exactly that it was in 1943.

A. And when did you leave the Komsomol?

In what year?

B. I left the Komsomol at the end of 1954.

I had to leave; you understand - you can be in the Komsomol until you

are 27 yeard old, no older, if you are not elected to a high elective

post in the Komsomol.

A. so.

B. Just a minute.

I received a double punishment.

I was Secretary of a Komsomol organization, and I was relieved.

Well, this was not a punishment.

A. Where were you a Komsomol Secretary?

B. In the Second Chief Directorate (glavka), in the Second Chief Directorat

A. Of the entire Second Chief Directorate?

B. Yes.

There were only 13 or 15 Komsomol members, together with the typists.

A. From what time were you ((secretary)) there?

B. From 1943... 1953; to my thinking, in 1953, at the end of 1953, I was

elected Secretary of the Party organization of the Second Chief

Directorate.

A. Well, was this the Party ((organization)) or the Komsomol ((organization

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B. The Komsomol organization.

A. You say that this was approximately at the end of 1953?

B. The reason I say approximately is because usually the elections are

held at the end of the year -- September, October, August....

A. What served as the basis for electing you Secretary?

You had just begun working there.

B. Well, I began working in March.

I think, you see why - the Komsomol organization was very small -- in

the main there were only 4 or 5 from among the operational employees,

the rest were not operational but support people - secretaries,

typists.

A. Approximately how many Komsomol members were there at that time in the

Second Chief Directorate?

B. About 15 people there.

A. But you must....

B. Well, the UODK is not included here; I have in mind that surveillance

does not enter in here -- in this Komsomol organization.

A. How do you say it - UODK?

B. VODK - Directorat for the Protection of the Diplomatic Corps.

Earlier it was called... this is surveillance over foreigners.

A. Earlier it was called what, and what is it now?

B. And now this UODK has been combined with the Seventh Directorate.

A. What was the department of the Second Chief Directorate called which

SEGRET

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serviced foreigners at the time when you began working?

B. Which foreigners?

A. Servicing all foreigners.

B. The First Department,

the Second Department, the Third Department…

A. No, I have in mind, from the administrative point

of view,

operational point of view.

not the

Oh... this was MID UPDK BYUROBIN, formerly BYUROBIN; now it is called

UPDK.

This is MID.

A. BYUROBIN, and what do you say it now is called?...

B. UPDK.

A. UPDK -- what does it mean?

B. Directorate for Servicing the Diplomatic Corps.

There, the chief is ZHUKOV, the former ambassador to Indonesia.

There was always an employee in charge.

There was always one employee in charge under UPDK cover, from the

Second Chief Directorate.

A. Well, then, if we put everything into place, when you began to work in

the Second Chief Directorate, it was called UODK.

B. UODK - this was the Directorate for the Protection of the Diplomatic

Corps.

This is surveillance over foreigners, headed by General BOYKOV.

He was a colonel at the time, but soon after, about two years later, he

became a general.

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A. When did they combine with the Seventh Directorate?

Only give me the date.

B. In approximately 1958, approximately 1958; it was given over to the

Seventh Directorate.

A. Do you know approximately when the UODK was organized?

B. I know that it was the former Department 2-Z or 2-1 -- I do not

remember exactly; I do not remember -- headed by Colonel KoReTSkIY.

There was such a Colonel KORETSKIY and there were the Departments 2-Z,

2-I, 27h in the Second Chief Directorate, which were responsible for

surveillance over foreigners.

It was before my time.

When I came in, it was UODK, and it was headed by BOYKOV.

A. And when did they organize BYUROBIN?

B.

BYUROBIN also was before I came in.

BYUROBIN - it was the bureau for servicing foreigners.

But it was subordinate to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and it is

still subordinate to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but it is not

BYUROBIN - it is the UPDK.

A. Practically speaking, there are now two organizations which are respon-

sible for foreigners... servicing them.

B. What two organizations?

A. Well, you said - the UODK, which combined with the Seventh Directorate.

B. Well, it is not for servicing; the UODK is for surveillance of

foreigners.

A. Well, the name itself?

SECHET

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B. The name itself - the Directorate of the Protection of the Diplomatic

Corps; abbreviated, it was called VODK -- the Directorate for the

Preotection of the Diplomatic Corps.

A. And parallel with this, there is the UPDK?

B. Just a minute, just a minute; you are somewhat confused.

In 1953 -- BYUROBIN -- this is the Directorate for the Servicing the

Diplomatic Corps.

You are absolutely right.

And this belongs to MID, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

But the UODK -- that is the KGB.

This is the surveillance over foreigners.

Now

it does not exist, since this work has been turned over entirely --

with all of the equipment, all of the surveillance personnel, chiefs -

all have been turned over to the Seventh Directorate.

Because the Seventh Directorate -- for what was it responsible earlier?

Only the investigative personnel and the surveillance of Soviet citizens

that is all.

A. And, then, from 1958, the UODK was incorporated in the Seventh

Directorate?

B. Then, the Seventh Directorate is in charge of surveillance now.

Moreover, two years later, from 1958, or approximately in 1960, the

Seventh Directorate gave all of its investigative personnel, the investi

ative

personnel - earlier, it was their main work -- gave them to the

KGB Directorate for Moscow City

and Moscow Oblast.

And

now they are not responsible

for investigative work as such.

You know, it is requested that they check a citizen's way of life, colle

references

and

so forth and so forth.

If this work was carried out

earlier, the entire work, by the Seventh

Directorate -- this is a huge apparatus - then,

it was turned over,

the entire work, to the Directorate for Moscow Oblast.

A. Then, on the day you left Moscow - if I understand you correctly --

CHET

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surveillance of foreigners was carried on by the Seventh Directorate.

B. The Seventh Directorate.

A. And parallel to this, there existed the UPDK.

B. No.

This is not the KGB, this is the MID.

The UPDK - this is the Directorate for Servicing the Diplomatic Corps.

What are the tasks of this UPDK?

The Embassy, any embassy wishing….. getting workers, cooks, charwomen,

chauffeurs -- these

people were gotten through the UPDK.

Tickets - railway, theater, etc. -- were ordered through the UPDK.

Everything was done through

the UPDK.

This directorate works entirely for the embassies, all the embassies --

both the so-called democratic ones, such as Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and

others, of the Western countries.

All the embassies.

Repairs were made - electrical, plumbing - everything was done through

the UPDK.

This directorate -- a MID directorate - was established for the

servicing of the diplomatic corps.

A. Were there many Second Chief Directorate employees with UPDK?

B. In the UPDK, there was one staff employee there for many years, he was

BYUROBIN - FILATOV.

FILATOV was in charge for many years, approximately, approximately...

When did FILATOV go on pension?

He went on pension approximately... (2-3G) in 1961.

And they put there Mikhail Mikhalovich SUMSKOY, who,

as of January

1964, was in the UPDK.

He has an office in the UPDK.

True, if FILATOV was chief of a directorate... Chief of the Personnel

Department of the UPDK... then SUMSKOY... they promoted him to deputy

chief of the directorate.

SEGRET

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The Chief of Directorate of this UPDR iS ZHUKOV.

And SUMSKOY is from the KGB; he is the deputy.

A. As far as I understand you, the Directorate for the Affairs of the

Diplomatic Corps is in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and there is a

single operational employee....

B. Staff man.

A.

..of the Second Chief Directorate.

B. It is another thing

that there are fellows ((KGB)) who have retired,

have retired and were looking for work....

I know that (IG) worked there for several months....

A.

Well, we will not....

B. SUKHANOV worked there for several months.

A. Approximately, what is the total staff of this UPDK, the total staff?

((Pause)) They occupied... in 1962-1963, they moved to another place;

they occupied during all of the years -- as far as I know - from 1953

to 1962 a three-story building on Stanislavskiy Street, the entrance

from Herzen Street, and foreigners went there.

How many people could be housed there?

There was a Personnel Section....

A. Well, approximately, how many?

B. I am afraid to say.

A. Well, two hundred, three hundred?

B. Not more, not more.

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A. Four hundred?

B. Just a minute; here is an interesting thing; just a minute.

Let us assume that all of the workers in the UPDK in the entire

building amount to 200 -- 150-200.

Yes?

But not all of the workers - the Soviet citizens who work in all of

the embassies -- are housed in the UPDK.

They work at the embassies as chauffeurs, gardeners, charwomen, cooks.

But they are UPDK workers.

A. Well, I am asking how many in all, including....

B. Oh, with these.

This I do not know.

A.

Well, how many?

Two thousand, three throusand?

B. I do not know.

A .

Well, if we consider that there are 70

embassies in Moscow...?

B. 70 embassies?

Well....

A. Well, how many will the UPDK have, approximately?

B. Well, the American Embassy, the largest Embassy, has a hundred or

hundred twenty Soviet citizens working there.

The rest of the embassies are small, and they have few people.

I would say that there are approximately 1,000 people working.

A. Well, I proceed from the following - if you worked there for such a

long time in the Second Chief Directorate, and you had close contact on

the basis of information from the Seventh Directorate and, furthermore,

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that the surveillance of the Second Chief Directorate now is in the

Seventh Directorate - I take it that you had frequent contact with

both these and those - with the people of the Seventh Directorate and

the Directorate for the Affairs of the Diplomatic Corps -- because

without them you could not take a step.

B. Right, right.

A. Therefore, my question is -- and I think there is a basis for me to

aks - well, the total staff of the UPDK, the numerical complement.

I am not assing for the exact number; one can make an estimate.

B. My estimate is

1,000 employees, Soviet citizens working in the embassies

approximately.

A. Approximately a thousand?

B. Soviet citizens who are working in the embassies.

A. Does this also include all of those on the staff of the UPDK in the

directorate, and those which....

B: No, I am taking into account those who are ((on staff)) in the direc-

torate.

There are 150 people on the staff and 1,000 in the embassies.

A. A thousand in the embassies..

Well, we will say there are approximately 1,200.

B. Yes, yes, approximately.

A. Approximately.

Well, we will drop this question for the time being.

B. Well, this figure could be questioned - it is not exact.

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A. Well, I do not ask you to give me or know the exact number.

B. It is not possible.

A. We will return to the initial theme of our conversation - about the

Komsomol.

As you said, you were in the Komsomol from 1943 until 1954; you entered,

and somewhere in 1954....

B. I left the Komsomol for reason of age.

A. For reason of age.

And, for some time, you were the Secretary of the Komsomol organization.

What was the Komsomol organization called?

What was it called?

B. Komsomol Organization No. 2.

A .

Komsomol Organization....

B. Well, of Collective No. 2.

A. Collective No. 2.

Well, what did you have a Committee?

B. We had no Committee; it was a small organization.

A. Well, what was it called?

B. Komsomol organization.

A. And nothing....

B. There was only a Secretary, a small bureau of 3 people.

A. We will return to 1952, with regard to the Komsomol.

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You arrived in Moscow as you say, from the Baltic area in December 1952;

and then you began working in the KGB - in the MVD, as it then was

called - in March 1953.

Where were you enrolled in the Komsomol at that time?

B. Up to March?

A. During the time that you left the Baltic area and when you began

working..

B. Where?

I continued to be enrolled in the Baltic area.

At Sovetsk.

A. And when you left there forca period of time you were not taken off

the list?

B. No, of course not.

A. Where did you pay your dues?

B. I was not paying dues anywhere.

I paid the dues for the several months I did not pay as soon as I

started working.

I paid for January, February, for March.

A. And where did you pay for December.

B. Well, I left Sovetsk in December.

A. When did you leave in December?

B. At the end of December.

Around New Year's.

At the very end of December.

SEBRET

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A. When are membership dues usually paid?

B. Well, when you get paid -around the 22nd or 23rd of the month.

A. Then for December you paid there.

' B. I paid.

A. And when you got into the KGB?

Then you paid at one time?

B. I paid for January, February and March.

A .

When you came into the KGB - tell me, briefly, the whole procedure of

your Komsomol business.

When did you first visit the Komsomol Committee in the KGB to be re-

enrolled?

B. I do not remember.

I am afraid to say, I am afraid to say.

Of course, it was about the time I began working.

I asked about the Komsomol organization.

I spoke with the Secretary of the Komsomol organization and introduced

myself.

A.

What Secretary?

B. In the Second Directorate, but I do not remember who he was.

A. You replaced him in this position?

B. Yes, yes.

A. Well, who was the Secretary?

After all, you took his place and I think you should remember his name.

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B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. He must have continued working in the Second Chief Directorate.

B. Yes, he entered the Party; he was accepted as a candidate Party member,

but who?

One of the fellows.

A. Very well, you met him....

B. I remember who took over from me, but I do not remember from whom I

took over.

A. Very well, you came to see him, and you were accepted into the KGB.

By the way, when you spoke with SHUBNYAKOV, did he speak with 'you about

belonging to the Party?

B. I do not remember.

Of course, he must have asked.

Of course, he asked.

A. Figure out the age at which you were when you came to Moscar and began

to work in the KGB.

B. Twenty-five.

A. Can you be a bit more precise?

B. I had passed my twenty-fifth birthday at the end of 1952.

A. In 1952.

B. In October, October 30.

Then here - November, December, January, February, and the beginning

of March -- I was 4½ months past my twenty-fifth birthday.

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A. You told me earlier, that, in the Komsomol, members are enrolled until

they are 27 years old.

B. Until they are 27.

A. From what date, were members allowed to remain members until they were

27%

B. This is indicated in the Regulations; I do not know from what time.

It is indicated in the Regulations, that one can remain a Komsomol member

until 27 years of age.

A.

What Regulations establish this?

B. The Komsomol Regulations.

A. Of what year?

B. I do not remember.

It is established in the Komsomol Regulations.

A. Well, I think that if you were a Secretary of a Komsomol organization,

you should remember accurately whether it was the Regulations of 1953

or 1954 - I will not insist on the year it changed -- Komsomol members

could remain in until they were 26.

B.

27.

A .

The Regulations now state that you can remain until you are 27, but,

at that time....

B. No, no, no; that cannot be.

When the question about my Komsomol reprimand arose - whether to

remove it - when they removed me as a Komsomol Secretary... in 1954, I

was not yet 27.

Then,

in October, or in the beginning of October - that is, when I

SECTER

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reached 27 -- after that, I was to leave the Komsomol because of age.

A.

Of course, I cannot accept what you are explaining to me now.

It does not fit.

Because the new Regulations... it is true that Komsomol members may

remain as Komsomol members until they are 27....

B. That is the way it was in 1954....

A.

...But in 1953, 1954,

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

Until the age of 26....

B. It was the same way in 1954 -- 27 years

of age.

A. I am not going to bring you the Regulations and show them to you.

B. You do not have to.

Because, otherwise, I would not have been able to get out of that

difficult situation.

A .

Furthermore, you said that you got out of the komsomol because of age

and - correction with the punishment in 1954; you got out at the end

of the year.

B. So.

A. There is no reason to talk about the age, 27; It already was 26 ((in

the Regulations))

в. 27.

In October of 1954, I was 27 years old.

A. Well, there are members who remain after they are 27.

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B. You can remain for several months.

I reached the age in October, and I got out in December. (XG)

It is not half a year, if you please.

After your talk with the Secretary of the Komsomol organization -

whose name you do not remember - of course, it is difficult for me to

believe that you took up the duties of Secretary of the Komsomol

organization and became the Secretary for the Second Chief Directorate,

and you cannot remember who he was.

B.. I do not remember.

A. I presume that, if they elected you Secretary of the organization, that

you were an active Komsomol member.

Apparently, you must have had good qualifications, since you had worked

there for a short time; and I think you should know from whom you took

over.

Let us talk logically.

B. Now, you see, you yourself worked in KGB -- but, even if not in the

KGB, but just in the Soviet Union - you suggest logically discussing

this, but you tell me such a strange thing.

You know how things are run.

This is not ((a big)) committee.

What kind of files are there?

You keep a list of the members - these 20 poor souls - there are no

enrollment documents.

When they pay the dues, you put down their names and Komsomol card

numbers.

Then you take this list and the money to the Komsomol organization.

What kind of files are there?

None at all.

A work plan, for example, for a month -- what measures are taken,

what meetings and discussions are held on such and such

theme.

That is all.

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A. One minute.

B. What files are there?

A. No matter what files there might have been - even if you had only a

file box or two sheets of paper, you nevertheless became the Secretary.

of a Komsomol organization.

B. Right, right.

A. Furthermore, before you can become the Secretary for the Komsomol

organization of the Second Chief Directorate, before they give you

complete authority, what precedes this?

B.

This is not a powerful organization.

I told you it consists of secretaries and typists.

There were in all two, three - four operational members, and the rest

were technical support personnel.

A. And you were the Secretary of the Komsomol organization, so?.

B. Yes.

A. It is not just that a man takes a file box containing the files and

that is all -- what precedes this, so that you are, and have the

authority, of a Secretary of a Komsomol organization?

B. ((Pause)) You are right about what you have in mind; but the organiza-

tion of a huge plant or of a large collective....

A. Let us not talk about a plant or another big organization; we are

talking now about the Second Chief Directorate, the Komsomol organiza-

tion of the KGB.

B. I am telling you the way it was.

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Well, I want to know how you became the Secretary of a Komsomol

organization.

You said that you took over the files.

What preceded this event and your becoming a real Secretary of a

Komsomol organization?

B. To become a real one, I do not know, but I know how I became one.

A .

The way you put it -- you simply took over the files, and that was all.

If you were the Secretary of a Komsomol organization, you must know.

This is even printed in the Regulations -- what the procedure is.

B. First of all, there was a report and elections meeting; the old

Secretary delivered the report; then a representative of the KGB

Komsomol Committee attended the meeting; when the report had been

delivered, it was pronounced that the work had been satisfactory.

A. Just a minute; why must I ask you ten times before you begin answering

me?

B. Now, really, are such as meetings so important?

A. I want to find out how you became a Secretary.

B. If you please, if you please... the Secretary delivered the report;

for example, that eight meetings were held during the tenure.

There was an evaluation of the work.

Then, the KGB Komsomol Committee representative speaks - they already

had decided that there would be a proposal by the Komsomol Committee

to put Comrade ((B's surname)) up as a candidate for Secretary.

And that is all.

A. Who was the Komsomol Committee representative?

B. I also do not remember.

SESRET

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A .

Well, what do you think?

It

is quite difficult for me to believe that the Secretary of the

Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate at that time

does not remember from whom he took over and likewise does not know

the name of the man who worked in the KGB Komsomol Committee.

B. Well, I do not remember who was there.

I knew several people who had contact with the Second Chief Directorate.

Marat SOKOLOV and KALININ, Anatoliy.

Who was there?

Perhaps one of them or someone else; I do not remember.

A. Well, if it was Marat, then it was Marat.

B. I do not remember.

It was these two men who maintained contact with the Second Directorate,

both of them.

A. Well, what, after the results of the election meeting?

You were elected; what then?

B. We then elected a bureau of three people for our Komsomol organization.

A. What else?

Who were the members of the bureau?

B. I do not remember; a girl, the typist, a secretary - I do not remember.

A. What -- three, with you, or were there four?

B. Three, with me, because this was a very small Komsomol organization.

A. What else?

B. The meeting ended after this.

On the following day, we got together, made a tentative work plan -

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who would do what work.

A. Well, how were you personally elected Secretary?

B. Well, right there at the Komsomol meeting; you see, at that time...

Why am I telling you about a large Komsomol organization?

The large organizations elect a bureau; then the bureau gets together

and selects a Secretary.

But this was a small organization - 12-15 persons.

A. You said that there was a bureau composed of three people.

B. Well, in all;

with me included.

A. Along with you.

Well, did they

elect a bureau, or did they elect you alone?

B. They elected three of

us, but they immediately elected me Secretary.

You understand - this was an unusual method, because this was a small

Komsomol organization.

I have said that this is not the way it really happens in large

Komsomol organizations, or in the Party organizations, where first a

bureau is elected, and then the bureau on the following day gets

together to select and elect a Secretary.

A. Well, as a former Secretary, tell me - on the basis of the Regulations,

how are the elections carried out in a Komsomol organizations consisting

of 15 people.

You said there were approximately 15 people; how are the elections

carried out?

Who is elected, and how is he elected?

B. ((Pause)) I do not remember; who, how, how the elections are held --

I do not remember anything.

A. Is it logical or not, as a Secretary who knows the procedures well --

-3AST

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because he was elected -- at least to know the Regulations?

((Pause)) Is it so difficult?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. Well, you know it is very easy to say that you do not remember.

B. Well, I really do not remember.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. A person who was elected Secretary must know how he was elected.

B. They elected me at a meeting.

They elected two other members. from our Party ... Komsomol organization.

A .

Well, who were they?

B. I do not remember; I think they were two girls, and both were typists.

A. You do not remember the names?

How were the elections held?

How actually were the three of you elected?

B. No; I lied to you - one was a typist and the second one was a

secretary of the German Department -- Nina... right.

A. Well, that is not important; what is her surname?

B. Nina, Nina, Nina...

do not remember.

A. By the way, you mentioned the German Department; in 1953, who was the

Chief of the German Department of the Second Chief Directorate?

B. I do not remember now; I wrote it down.

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A. I know that you wrote it down.

B. ((Thinking aloud)) First Department, then GORBATENKO; the Second --

KONDRASHIN; the third... I do not remember.

A. And you are sure that in 1953 in the Second Chief Directorate, there was

a German Department, that a secretary of the German Department was

elected to the bureau?

B.

( (Pause))

Yes.

Well,

it was not responsible for embassy work, but for Germans who left

in the territory... well, it was the German Department, for

immigrant

organizations, and likewise

a level with PERETUGOV's department,

which handled the Sixth... the

Third - Germans - but how else?

A. I will ask you again

if you are sure that there was

a German Department.

B. Yes, the German Department ((speaks with uncertainty)) was there.

A.

Think about it.

•B. (XG) I do not remember.

I know that there was a German Department.

A. I am asking if there was a German Department in 1953, and if you are

sure of this.

B. I do not remember; I do not remember.

A. Well, if you do not remember, then probably you do not remember very

well that the person who was elected a member of the Komsomol organi-

zation bureau was not from the German Department.

B. Well, she was from the Third Department; she was there and is now a

secretary in the Third Department.

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A. Perhaps she is working there, but if you....

B. And she was working there when I was in the Komsomol organization; she

was a Komsomol member.

A. If you do not remember whether there was or was not a German Department,

how could a person from the German Department have been elected?

B. The German Department, the German Department.

A.

Well, I will ask again - are you sure there was a German Department?

B. ((Pause)) I am not absolutely sure of anything; but I know it was the

German Department from which this Nina was a member of the Komsomol

organization of the Second Chief Directorate, and she was elected to

the bureau.

A. I am asking for the third time whether or not you are sure, whether

you know exactly or do not know, was there a German Department in 1953

or not?

B. There was a German Department in 1953; there was.

A. If there was a German Department in 1953, where were you at the time?

Because there was no German Department.

B. I was in the First Department.

A. How can you say there was a German Department when there was no such

Department in the Second Chief Directorate in 1953?

How can you say that?

B. ((Pause)) To my thinking, there was.

A. You see, I am not insisting that you make up something.

I am simply asking whether there was a department or not, whether you

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know or you do not know.

B. To my thinking, there was a German Department, because Nina was a

secretary of the German Department...

A. A man who worked there in 1953, 1954, and who worked there until 1964,

and who was a Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second

Chief Directorate probably will know exactly whether there was a

German Department or not, and he will not say "to my thinking" or

"probably".

He will only answer precisely whether there was or was not one there.

B. Why do I tell it to you this way

— "to my thinking"there was" -- and

do not tell you

for sure?

Because I do

not remember exactly the name of the Chief of the Depart-

ment.

A. You cannot remember it because there was no such Department.

B. ((Pause)) To my thinking there was.

I do not remember.

I will think, I will think (XG)

A. ((Pause)) Well, we will return to the same question - howwre the

members of the bureau elected?

B. I do not remember; I do not remember this.

A. Am I right in concluding that you were not a Secretary of the Komsomol

organization of the Second Chief Directorate?

B. (?An incorrect conclusion?)

A. If the conclusion is not right, you were an active Komsomol member,

you were elected Secretary...

SEGRET

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((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

B.

...You see what the matter was?

I do not remember.

You can draw that conclusion on the basis of that.

I do not remember; I do not remember.

A. Very well, let us assume that the bureau was elected - three people;

you and two girls.

Let us assume that.

What else?

((Pause)) What else?

I already have

mentioned twice in the form of a leading question -- at

what

time does a person become a Secretary in a Komsomol organization?

B. At what time?

Well, the bureau is elected.... In large organizations...

A. We are talking about the organization of the Second Chief Directorate,

where there were approximately 15 Komsomol members.

Do not tell me about big organizations, because I know about them very

well - about both the large ones and the small ones.

I am talking only about the one in which you were.

B. I answered you.

A. Because I do not want to talk about large ones, etc., because in doing

so, we will get to the raykom and the Komsomol CC.

When we have time, we will talk about this.

Right now, I want to know about the Second Chief Directorate, in which

you were a Secretary, where there were approximately 15 people, where

a bureau of three people was elected, although you do not remember the

names of two.

What else?

How does an elected Secretary become a Secretary?

What else follows?

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What precedes?

B. There is a meeting of this bureau immediately after the Komsomol

meeting, a meeting of this bureau.

A. What does this bureau do?

B. This bureau elects the Secretary.

Oh, my God!

Well, what do you want?

A. ((Pause)) This still is not all; there is something

else.

What

is the Secretary supposed to know?

I want to find this out and know exactly; if you tell me, then perhaps

I will believe that you were a Secretary.

If you

do not tell me, then you were not, just between

us.

B. Why "between us"?

A. Even I, for example... it was very, very interesting - and sad --

for me, of course, to hear you say that, at that time ((one could

remain in the Komsomol)) up to 27 years of age....

B. Up to 27 years of age; absolutely.

A. Now ((it is)) up to 27 years of age; the Regulations have been

amended - then, it was up to 26, and now,

it is up to 27.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

B. I was up to 27 years of age.

A. If you were a Secretary, you must know.

B. In accordance with the Regulations, I was in the Komsomol up to 27 years

of age.

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A. Do you remember the number of your Komsomol identification?

B. No.

A. Not one digit?

B. The first was 19, and then... 19 and then... well, a 6-digit number.

A. Well, I do not insist that you remember this number, although you know

that a komsomol member has to know his number just as a soldier knows

his rifle number.

Well, we will assume that this matter took place long ago.

I do not insist that you know the number, although this number is

repeatedly asked for by the Secretary of the Komsomol organization.

B. I do not remember; I do not remember the number of my Party identificatic

and you ask me about the Komsomol number, when I left in 1954.

A. If you do not remember your Party card number, then we will return

again to this, and I will pose a great question of whether or not you

were a Party member.

That is another question.

B. I simply told you as

an example that I do not even recall my Party

card number.

A. And I say that if you do not even remember the number of your Party

card, I then raise the great question of whether you were in the Party

at all, or not.

B. You see what your approach is?

A. Because there can be no other.

How can I approach this question otherwise -- a man is elected

Secretary, and he does not know how he assumes his duties?

SEGRET

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B.

I told you how.

I told you how!

A.

The most simple and common procedures.

At the beginning, you told me it was simply a Komsomol organization,

but then it was a bureau.

B. But there was only one Komsomol organization in the Second Directorate;

how can you not understand?

A. If you were the Secretary, you must know that there is a raykom that

there is a committee, that there is a bureau, that there is a primary

Komsomol organization, and there is a lower Komsomol organization...

B. It is the only one in the Second Chief Directorate.

A. Well, what was yours?

Was it a raykom, a committee, or a primary?

B. The primary Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate, and.

there was no other.

A. Very well, it was a primary organization.

Further, you told me that a bureau of three people was elected.

The bureau got together.

But how did the bureau elect you as Secretary?

You told me that at a meeting they elected you a Secretary and two

members of the bureau.

That is not the way it is done.

In no way.

If you were the Secretary, then you must know.

B. Yes, precisely.

I have told you, keeping in mind, the small size of the organization,

the Komsomol organization.

Now, keeping in mind....

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A. Let us stop here for a minute.

Do you want to discuss the question, that in the Second Chief

Directorate, there were 15, 13, or 16 members or....

B. No, no, not in any case.

Why so?

A. Well, let us have a number - you told me that there were approximately

15 members.

I willproceed from this -- that there were 15 members.

You told me that they elected you Secretary at the Komsomol meeting

along with two other members of the bureau.

That is not the way it is done.

If you

were the

Secretary, you must know and tell me the way it is

done

and

how

it happened.

Even if this Komsomol organization never even worked, as often

happened.

B. Do you want me to give the formalities?

They formalized it, they formalized it.

A representative of the Komsomol Committee was there; the bureau was

formalized; it was formalized on a piece of paper that a bureau had

elected ((B's surname)) as Secretary of the Party organization.

A. Then why did you say that you were elected at a meeting of the

Komsomol organization to be the Secretary, but then you thought about

it and said that two more members were elected to the bureau at the

same meeting.

B. No, at the bureau ((meeting)) how else?

A. Then, you were elected Secretary at a meeting of the bureau?

B. ((Pause)) Yes;

at a formal bureau meeting.

A. Formal or not; this is the protocol, written down, and so forth.

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B. Yes, so, so, so.

A. ((In English)) Alright, let us go on.

What next?

You still are not Secretary; what next?

B. The Komsomol Committee must confirm me as the Secretary of the organi-

zation.

A. Well, let us go to the Komsomol Committee.

B. I do not remember, but after a day or two they confirmed me

as Secretary.

A. Alright, you come to a session of the Komsomol Committee in

two... well... for the whole Ministry of Internal Affairs.

day

B. Yes.

A. What went on there?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

They confirmed as a Secretary.

They spoke with me, told me what to do.

A. How did they speak with you?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. This was the one time in your life.

B.

Why "one time"?

I was a secretary of a Komsomol organization in the Far Last, in

Sovetskaya Gavan.

A. We are speaking now of 1953, the KGB, and the Second Chief Directorate.

You had been working only a few months in the KGB; you were a new man;

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they showed their trust in you; they accepted you in the KGB, and

they elected you Secretary of the komsomol organization of the Second

Chief Directorate.

Now, they summon you to a session of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD.

Now, tell me the procedure.

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

I absolutely do not remember.

They talked with me.

A.

What did they talk to you about.

B. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. Do you remember who was Secretary of the Komsomol Committee?

B. I also do not remember.

I remember those two fellows because they later worked in the Second

Chief Directorate - Marat SOKOLOV and Anatoliy KALININ.

A. Very well, you come to the session of the Committee of the MVD -- as

it was called at that time - you come to the room where the session

is, or into the office of the Secretary of the Committee, where it

meets.

Well, do you remember who was there?

What did they ask you?

B. Both of those young fellows were there - KALININ and SOKOLOV.

I do not remember which one of them was present or if someone else

was present; this man stated how the Komsomol meeting of the Party

Organization No. 2 went.

They informed.

A. The Party or Komsomol organization?

B. The Komsomol organization; No. 2.

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A. Well, what did they talk to you about?

B. I do not remember what they talled about.

A.

We will return to the Month of March.

You said that you went on duty in the KGB in the middle of March.

Tell how you were placed on the rolls of the Komsonol, in the Komsomol

organization of the MVD.

B. I do not remember.

I reported to the Secretary of the Komsomol organization.

A. Well, you appeared before the Secretary of the Komsomol organization....

B.

I was sent to the Komsomol Committee.

I said, so....

There they asked me for the so-called registration check (prikrepitel'nyy

talon).

I told how it was in my case.

A. What is this registration check?

B. Well, when you are removed from the rolls in one komsomol organization...

( (Pause) )

A. You left the Baltic.

B. I was not removed from the rolls (2G).

A. Then, you cannot talk about a registration

check.:

B. No, there was none.

A. How, practically, you....

B. I showed my Komsomol identification card.

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A. So?

B.

Well, they talked with me.

I do not remember what they said.

Probably they asked me how and when I was accepted in the Komsomol;

what kind of Komsomol assignments I had had - such questions....

A. Well, very well.

B. I paid the dues.

They could have asked me why I had not paid the dues for January and

February - because I had been left hanging; I was waiting for them to

accept me for work.

A. This was already what - almost three months?...

B. Yes.

A. ... That you had not paid the dues?

B. I had not paid for two months.

A. January, February, March.

B. Well, I paid for March, when the time came to pay.

A. Then not for two months, but for three.

B. I paid for three months.

A. But what do the Regulations say about not paying dues?

B. I think that after six months you automatically are out.

A. Please - as a Secretary, you must know more precisely.

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B. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. What explanation did you give the Committee for not paying for three

months?

B. I explained that I had come on leave for January, but, while on leave,

the question of my new assignment or transfer from the Navy to the MVD

was being resolved; that is all.

A. Do you know whether there was a Political Department of the Navy

Intelligence Directorate at that time?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

I do not remember any department, because I

never was there; I did not

speak with anyone.

A. Well, what was the Navy GRU called at that time?

B. GRU; GRU of the Ministry of the Navy.

A. GRU or RU?

B. GRU -- Chief.

And the chief was Vice-Admiral VORONTSOV.

A. You do not remember whether there was a political department in this

GRU?

B. There was none, because I never was there, and I never spoke with

anyone.

I was in Personnel several times and left.

I did not work one day there in the Ministry.

When I started working, it was right in Sovetskaya Gavan.

A. Well, let us proceed further with the procedure -- you were with the

Secretary of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD; you are talking with

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the Secretary of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD; you are talking

with the Committee about being in the process of enrolling.

When did this occur -- when younalready were on duty?"

B. Yes, when I was already on duty.

A. You already had begun working.

Well, tell me the approximate procedure -- what did they talk to you

about?

What questions did they ask you?

B. I do not remember.

I absolutely do not remember, I do not remember.

The Secretary of the Komsomol Committee did not speak with me when I

was enrolling.

There were two girls there.

I gave them the information.

A. To whom did you pay the dues?

B. I paid the dues to the organization of the Second Chief Directorate.

A. After the girls spoke to you, they asked you where you had been

enrolled.

B. Well, precisely - when I started working in the Second Chief Directorate

and reported to the secretary, they told me that, before they

officially would put me on the rolls they would send me to the

Komsomol Committee; the Komsomol Committee was to direct me.

The Party Secretary could not put me on the rolls...

Now that I had begun working;

"I will put you on the rolls, ((B's

surname))";

where?

On the Komsomol Committee rolls of the MVD, which directs me where?

To the Komsomol organization where I work; you understand?

A. I have a question - how did you get on the rolls of the Komsomol

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Committee of MVD?

B. I spoke with the Secretary, and he told me....

A. With the Secretary or with the girl?

B. With the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief

Directorate.

A. Where did he send you?

B. He sent me to the Komsomol Committee.

A. With whom did you speak over there?

B. There, they put me on the rolls.

They took the number of my Komsomol card; there were girs

registration.

They asked me where I worked.

in

I said in the Second Chief Directorate; I said I had begun working

in March.

They did not give me any paper or anything, but I was enrolled

officially in the Komsomol Committee of the MVD.

After that, the Secretary of the Party... Komsomol organization of the

Second Chief Directorate could place me on its rolls.

I was officially enrolled by the Komsomol Committee of the Second

Chief Directorate.

A .

How do you explain that we have been talking about this business for

half an hour, and five times, instead of Komsomol organization or

Komsomol Committee, you have said Party Committee, the Committee of

the Party, etc.

Are you explaing to me what took place in the Party organization or in

Komsomol?

B. ((In a low voice))

the Komsomol organization only.

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A. How do you explain that frequently you make mistakes -- instead of

Komsomol you say Party?

B. Because this was long ago.

Well, I was in the Komsomol long ago and I have become accustomed,

instead of the Komsomol organization, to the Party.

A. Now, what was the practical procedure for putting you officially on

the rolls of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD?

You spoke with those gins, they took the number of your Komsomol card.

What next?

B. To my thinking... I do not remember, I do not remember.

To my thinking... I am not able to give the details.

The girls told me to go and speak with so-and-so in such and such a

room - either SOKOLOV or KALININ or someone else; with one of the

fellows.

Why?

Because these fellows supervise the Komsomol organization No. 2.

A. What was their position?

B. They were members of the bureau, of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD.

A. Be more exact.

What was their position in the Komsomol Committee.

B. I do not remember what their position was.

They were just in the komsomol Committee; they did not work ((in

operations)).

A. There are many people working there, and every one of them occupies a

certain position.

B. I do not remember.

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A. You know, in the Komsomol Committee, as in any directorate, there are

positions, and they have certain responsibilities.

B. Right,. but I do not remember.

A. What were the positions of SOKOLOV and this other fellow?

B. I do not remember.

A. Do you think it is logical to say that a Secretary of a Komsomol organ-

ization of the Second Chief Directorate must know approximately who

works on the Komsomol Committee, what their positions are, who comes

to the meetings, and who supervises them?

B. I said that these two fellows - KALININ and SOKOLOV - supervised the

organization.

A. What were their positions?

B. Members of the Bureau of the Komsomol Committee.

A. Anyone can be a member of the bureau, even one who does not work

there - for your information.

But they have a certain functional position, which is written down on

paper - these are identified.

B. I do not remember.

A. We will return again to the following - if you were the Secretary,

you must know this, because it is very simple; not only do the

Secretaries know it, but everyone who was in the Komsomol does.

B. No, I do not remember, and I do not even know.

A. You can imagine that it is quite difficult for me to believe that

you were a Secretary.

TEGRET

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B. I do not imagine ((so)), I do not imagine ((so)) .

A. Well, we will return to an old question -- how and when did you

practically get on the permanent rolls of the Komsomol Committee of

the MVD?

B. In March 1953.

A. Well, explain how this was done.

B. I said that we talked.

A. You said you spoke with a girl about the rolls, with

a member of the

Bureau, as you say, with one or

the other

whom

you do not remember.

What next?

B. ((Pause)) That is all.

A. That is all?

If you were in the Komsomol, if you were a Secretary, you must know.

B. I said what I remember.

A. You understand - this is not an answer.

B. I cannot do anything.

I cannot jump higher than my head.

I do not remember.

You want me to think up something for you, but I will not.

A. I said, of course, practically speaking, if you had been Secretary,

you must know this.

Because it is not possible for a former Secretary not to know.

Even if you were not a Secretary, every Komsomol member knows how he

is placed on the rolls and how he is removed from the rolls.

I simply want to find out where the bones lie hidden.

SEBRET

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Because I came here to speak with you and to help you to clear out all

of this rubbish, and....

B. This is a thing that I can not answer.

A. How is it possible to believe you 100 percent after such a discussion?

It is not possible.

B. What can I do if I do not remember.

Do you want me to (?lie?) to you?

A. I do not know what you are supposed to do, but I want to know precisely -

were you a Secretary, and were you in the Komsomol?

But since you cannot tell the simplest things, I can make only one

conclusion - that you never were a Secretary of the Komsomol organi-

zation of the Second Chief Directorate, and I will question whether

you were in the Komsomol at all, if you cannot relate the simplest

things.

B. I told you what I remember.

A. The same thing happened with those with whom you spoke earlier, about

other questions, etc.

It always goes that way.

B. Well, what can I do if I have such a memory?

I can do nothing.

A. It is not a matter of memory.

B. If I have such a memory....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. I imagine that you had a very good memory -- you were a very good

worker.

SEGRET

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Because they do not select jerks (khuyevyy) to be Secretary of a

Komsomol organization, even though the organization might not work.

B. Well, there was no one else to elect.

There were only typists, secretaries and 2-3 ((operational)) workers

in all.

A. Listen; it is not important.

Why did they select you and not IVANOV?

B.

Well, maybe IVANOV got caught drunk - they found out and they....

A. Anyway, there were 15 people.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

You were a new man....

B. Typists and stenographers - they would not select them.

A. Perhaps it would be better to select a stenographer, because she has

been there all the time.

B. Well, probably they considered that they needed an operational man

as Secretary.

A. Well, if they considered that the Secretary had to be from among

operational personnel, then I conclude that there were not only typists

and stenographers, but also operational employees.

A.

Well, there was RAKOVSKIY, Feliks.

Who else was there?

Then, there was... later... he came later - I think he came in 1953.

(?KOTS?)

And there was someone else.

And, by the way, I gave the Secretary business to this KOTS.

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A. Well, we will return to this - to whom you turned over the business

and how.

What interests me is from whom you took over.

B. I do not remember.

A. Well, let us proceed further.

How actually did you get on the rolls?

B. I told you how it happened.

I do not remember anything else.

A. Then I make the only conclusion I can, and that is - that you never

were on the rolls of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD.

B. I told you how I was placed on them.

A. You did not say anything.

You just told me that you saw a girl there, and then you spoke with a

fellow whom you, the Secretary of the Komsomol organization did not

know and you did not know what his position was in the Komsomol.

B. Member of the bureau of the Party... Komsomol Committee.

A. He could have been a member of the bureau.

This does not indicate what his position was on the Komsomol Committee

of the MVD.

B. I do not know whether he was responsible for agitation or propoganda

or some other matter; I do not remember.

A. Well, we will return to another question.

You said that you were a Secretary somewhere else in a Komsomol

organization.

Where was that?

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B. Sovetskaya Gavan - that is, where I worked in the Far East in

intelligence in the Seventh Navy Fleet.

A. How many Komsomol members were there?

((Long pause)) Approximately how many?

B. ((Long pause; then, in a low voice:)) About 25; something like that.

A. As Secretary of a Komsomol organization, to whom in your Komsomol work

were you subordinate?

B. To one man; in Komsomol work I was subordinate to no one.

I was

subordinate to the Deputy Chief of Intelligence for Political

Affairs, Col BURCHENKO; no

one else.

A. And

to whom was Col BURCHENKO

subordinate?

B. BURCHENKO - to the Political Department of the Fleet.

A.

There must have been someone who guided the Komsomol work of the Fleet.

B.

No one ever came to me....

A .

He might not have come ((to you)).

B. BURCHENKO, yes, BURCHENKO looked after the work of the Komsomol

organization.

A. There must have been someone above you, if he never came to see you.

You must surely know.

If you - as the Secretary - handled all of the works, you must have

made reports to someone else besides BURCHENKO.

B. All the reporting that we did we turned into BURCHENKO.

And he participated in all the meetings.

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A. He could have participated as a Party organizer.

But with regard to what you said about not turning in anything to

anyone other than BURCHENKO, only one conclusion can be made, and that

is that you do not know the simplest thing about how the Komsomol

organization works, to whom it is subordinate, how it is composed,

and you do not know the Regulations, etc.

The conclusion can be made that you were not a Secretary, and the

question is raised of whether you were in the Komsomol at

all.

It is as simple as that.

B. Very well, leave it at that.

A. "Very well, leave it at that" - that is one question.

B. I cannot... understand me... excuse me... you are

shoving

me, shoving,

shoving me on this nonsense... on nonsense.

I do not remember.

But no, you know that I do not remember and you continue this....

A. I absolutely am not interested in raising questions ((of things)) which

you do not remember.

B

I do not remember.

I answer you as it was with me.

A. A person who was in the Komsomol for 11 years and was twice a

Secretary must know the simplest things which every Komsomol member

knows.

It is not a matter of shoving; it is simply that I want to know if

you were a Secretary or not.

B. I have told you.

Yes, I was.

A. You answer: "Yes, I was."

But this absolutely confirms nothing, because you do not know the

SECRET

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simplest things.

Let us take a break, and have something to eat.

( (LUNCH) )

B.

((Speaking in a low voice, asks for a cigarette))

A. Please; you did not ask in the morning..

B. I have been thinking and I have remembered something for confirmation

(utochneniye) .

First, that there was a German Department precisely in 1953.

And why "precisely"?

Because Nikolay YEGOROV, a case officer, was the Secretary of the

Party organization

from whom I took over.

He worked in the German Department, the Third Department.

Therefore, that Nina was from the same department.

I am telling you exactly -- the Secretary.

A. Well, again, you have said that you remember for sure that YEGOROV

was

Secretary of the Party....

B. Well, the Komsomol organization -- that is what I have in mind.

I made a slip.

A. Then you took over....

B. From Nikolay VEGOROV, who was accepted at that time as a candidate

member of the CPSU.

A. Well, did he become a candidate right away?

B. No, not at once; of course not.

Once he was accepted as a candidate member, he requested the Komsomol

Committee to relieve him as Secretary -- "I already am a candidate

member of the Party"....

SECRET

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A.

Well, you know that there are candidate members and Party members who

continue to be Secretaries of Komsomol organizations.

B. And sometimes they are elected to be Secretaries.

A.

By the way, did you hear one of the Soviet jokes when you were there

in regard to America?

"We have caught up with America in milk"

B. There was something "scabrous"

A.

But we have not caught up in meat"....

B.

"The bull's phallus (khren) was broken."

A. Well, a good joke; I heard it not long age.

Well, let us return to the question of how... or, to put it briefly,

are you going to continue to insist that you were Secretary of the

bureau of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate?

B. Secretary of the Komsomol organization.

A: Well, if the bureau was elected, then you were Secretary of the

bureau.

Well, he is not called the Secretary of the bureau, but the Secretary

of the primary Komsomol organization.

A.

Well, if he has a bureau, he is called the Secretary of the bureau.

On the basis of the Regulations, it is written what is meant by

"primary organization", by "bureau", etc..

B. There is a bureau in any organization, both in the Committee and in

the primary organization; but he is called Secretary of a Komsomol

Committee or Secretary of a Party organization.

A. Let us not get mixed up.

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B. Oh... Komsomol organization... Secretary of a Komsomol organization;

you understand.

He is not called Secretary of the komsomol Bureau of the MVD, no; he

is called Secretary of the primary Komsomol organization of the

Second Chief Directorate.

Now, the Secretary of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD -- that is

another thing.

But, here and there, there is a bureau in any organization.

A. Well, let us take 1953.

How did you get there and so forth?

Today, you gave me the name, KORETSKIY.

B. Yes, I have heard this.

He was the Chief of Surveillance when there were Departments 2-Z, 2-I.

A. Approximately how many people were there in surveillance?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Well, if you are talking about Komsomol work, I assume that you must

tell me that there was a Komsomol Secretary in the Second Chief

Directorate.

To whom did the Komsomol members of KORETSKIY(('s office)) belong?

B. KORETSKIY was not there when I was.

There was the UODK, headed by BOYKOv.

They had Komsomol organizations in the departments of the UODK.

Then there was a Komsomol organization for the entire UODK and this

Komsomol organization of the UODK was subordinate to the Party Committee

of the MVD.

A. Again, to the Party Committee...

B. The Komsomol Committee of the MVD.

- SEGRET

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A. And it had no relation to yours at all?

B. No, no, absolutely; and, likewise, the Party organization.

A. Well, how many departments were there in the Second Chief Directorate

in 19532

B. There were nine departments, and the tenth was the UOdk.

A. Alright; we will take nine departments.

Besides the departments,

there were other units.

B. Well, the Secretariat, the enrollment group....

A. Well, if you presume that each of the departments has one Komsomol

member, then there are already nine of them.

There was at least one member for each department.

B. No, in the English Department there was not one.

I can count them....

A. You do not have to for the time being.

We will return to this.

I want to determine more or less accurately the number...:

I think your number, 15, is not right.

B. 15, 15 absolutely right Komsomol members; a small organization.

A. Well, we will return to our old question - how did you really get on

the rolls of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD?

As soon as you came to work in the Second Chief Directorate, you came

to the Komsomol Committee of the MVD; you spoke with the girls; then

you spoke with

someone else; when did you become permanently enrolled?

B. Well, at the time I spoke with the girl of the enrollment group of

the Komsomol Committee.

SECRET

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A.

This is not all; that you spoke with the girl and that you showed your

Komsomol card does not mean that you are on their rolls.

B. They put me on the rolls; they issued me a card.

I do not remember.

I do not remember.

I am simply telling how it was.

A.

((Asks B to describe how the Komsomol organization is organized,

because

-- as a Secretary - he should know this.))

What are the responsibilities of the Secretary of the Komsomol

organization of the Second Chief Directorate?

B. To manage the works of the Komsomol organization.

A. This is general

-- "to manage the work of the Komsomol organization".

B. He collects dues, organizes Komsomol meetings, conducts the work of

the bureau of the Komsomol organization.

A. What is included in this work?:

B. Conduct lectures, discussions, verifies the members' participation in

their departments and in the units, controls political training.

A. Well, here - you are the Secretary of a Komsomol organization, and

you should have political instruction too.

What did you personally study as a Komsomol member in 1953 and 1954,

as Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate

B. You do not pose the question quite properly - not as Secretary,

although elected, I studied like all of the employees of the first

Department.

I studied in the department.

All of the Komsomol members studied in their own departments.

The girls from the typing pool studied in the Secretariat.

SECRET

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A. I am asking what you were studying.

B. In 1953 and 1954, I was studying foreign policy.

A. And what were the other people of the First Department studying?

B. We had two or three groups.

The Party Organization of the Department decided what subject would

be studied.

They would decide how many groups were to be established - one group

would study the foreign policy of the Soviet Government; the second

group might study one of the works of LENIN; for example, Materialism

and Imperio-Criticism.

Every year they decided what was to be studied and what groups would be

organized.

A. You said that you had a foreign policy course.

B. Yes.

A. You yourself studied?

B. Yes.

A. Would it not be proper to assume that you would study something else.

You had just completed the Institute of International Relations; what

new thing could you learn in a foreign policy group?

Who will teach you?

You had just recently completed the Institute of International Relations

B. No... you understand... foreign policy - you are studying current

problems which arise, current problems; you study what is going on in

a country now.

A. Well, I think there were also groups that studied current politics,

but you had outgrown this kind of group....

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B. Foreign policy.

A .

...You are saying "foreign policy", but you are explaing it as

"current events", "current events".

There is a big

difference.

B. I have in mind, "foreign policy", "foreign policy".

A. I want to know -- who in the First Department could teach you -- you

who had just recently come from the Institute of International

Relations; who could tell you something about foreign policy which

you yourself did not understand?

B. ((XG; B speaks in a very low, mumbling voice))

A. I think I understand you correctly.

There is no logic.

It would be the same as if a person who had graduated the Higher

Party School under the CC CPSU would come to the Second Chief

Directorate and say, "I will take the short course in the history of

the CPSU."

B. It is not the history of the CPSU; this is foreign policy.

The history of the CPSU is studied.

A. What can you learn in this group, and what can you get, just to pass

the time away?

B. Forcexample, the German question; there were several other questions.

A. A man who was working in the American Department and was studying

foreign policy would study the German question?

B. This was the foreign policy course; not everything was connected with

the United States.

The whole foreign policy of the Soviet state.

SECRET

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A. How large was the foreign policy group?

B. There were about 20 persons -- 15, 16 employees of the Department.

A. Who was in charge of the group?

B. One year it was ALESHIN, chief of a section, ALESHIN.

A. What were his particular qualifications to teach a foreign policy

group?

B.

Well, he was an educated man.

A. He was an educated man; what - a graduate of the Higher School of

the KGB?

B. In the past, he was a Komsomol worker.

He came from Party work.

He came in 1952.

A. Well, this is one of the responsibilities -- to study foreign policy

and to control what the Komsomol members study.

Further, you said that you collected dues - what procedure was there

for the payment of dues?

B. They received their pay in MVD and KGB on the 20th of every month,

with the exception -- if the 20th fell on Sunday, they would pay on

the twenty-first.

Two or three days later, I would collect the dues.

A. Tell me in detail what you did; how is it actually carried out?

B. A Komsomol member comes in; he presents his Komsomol card, and you

already have an alphabetical list of all Komsomol members…...

A girl usually types this list.

This list gives the name and the number of the Komsomol card; in the

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next column, the last month in which the dues were paid is indicated --

for example, "9"....

The next column indicates the month for which the dues are to be paid,

for example, in this case, it would be "10".

Then you ask the komsomol member what his basic pay is - for example,

say, "250 rubles"; you put the total of two percent....

In the Komsomol organization, two percent; in the Party, three percent...

two percent....

Well, you see, at that time, it was not 250, but 2,500 or 2,000....

You receive the money, and you mark down the amount that he paid;

for example, 40 rubles, if his basic pay were 2,000... 40 rubles... so.

You mark in his Komsomol card the amoung

his

salary and there is

a column in which you mark down the dues -- "40 rubles".

And then there is a column for the signature and a stamp.

But, on the list, you mark down how much money you received from him

and ask the Komsomol member for his signature, and he signs it.

A. Further?

B. That is all.

You are finished with him, and he leaves.

Two percent.

A. Let us

assume he receives 1,000 rubles in old currency

B.

((Speaks with uncertainty)) 20 rubles, 20 rubles.

A. ((In English)) Are you sure about that?

B. Two percent.

A. I am asking if you are sure of that?

B. Twenty rubles, absolutely.

A. You are sure?

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B. Two percent.

A .

I, of course, do not want to have any arguments.

The Regulations state a certain scale - who pays how much; how much

he receives, and how much he pasy.

And that scale shows that some people pay two percent, but not all of

them.

B. All of our members paid two percent.

A. That cannot be.

No one has the right to violate the Komsomol Regulations - to take

more from a man than he is supposed to.

B. There was no one who received 500 rubles, no one.

A. That is why I asked -- if someone receives one thousand rubles, how

much does he pay?

B. Two percent - 20 rubles.

A. I ask again - are you sure?

B. Two percent.

A. This is not true.

Because the Regulations explicitly state how much a man pays according

to what he earns.

Everyone is not covered the same way.

B. You understand; we had no one who received less than 1,000 rubles.

A. This answer does not satisfy me.

We are talking about the Regulations, which clearly state how much a

man pays, according to how much he is paid.

SECRET

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B. All my Komsomol members paid two percent.

A. This is not true; how much did you pay?

B. Two percent, also.

A. That, too, is not true.

Again, there is a big question here.

You do not know the simplest thing about the Secretary of a Komsomol

organization.

You do not even know how much dues the Komsomol members pay.

в.

When I was a student, I paid 20 kopeks.

A. Everyone knows that students pay 20 kopeks.

Because you mention 20 kopeks, it shows that the scale indicates how

much students pay and how much the others ((do)) .

It could not be that you yourself paid two percent; you paid something

other than two percent.

If you insist on telling me that you paid two percent, my only con-

clusion is that you were not a Secretary of a Komsomol organization.

That is the only conclusion.

В.

I do not know; as I remember....

A. I do not want to insist and argue further on this question, but this

is a fact, clear as black on white.

B. Right!

Right!

rubles.

But we did not have any low-paid personnel, ((receiving)) 200 or 300

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. I know that there was not anyone receiving 500 rubles in the Second

SEGRET

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Chief Directorate, if you are talking about the old currency.

Everyone was receiving more than 1,000.

B. Yes, right.

A. And no one of them was paying two percent, including you.

B.

Two percent, two percent.

The Party organization - three percent, regardless of who he was -

Chief of Department, case officer - three percent.

A. Again you are wrong.

Also in the Party organization, not everyone pays three percent.

B. Of course, if a Party

member receives up to 100 rubles, you will pay

less,

but no one in the KGB receives less than 100 rubles.

A.

This is absolutely not true, and it is absolutely not right when you

say

that you paid two percent.

It is not true, it is not true.

((XG; A and B speak at

the same time))

Well, very well, you collected the dues, the dues.

Who is entered on the list for the dues?

What is that list called?

B. I do not remember, but all the Komsomol members were on this list.

A. It has a name.

B.

I do not remember, I do not remember.

List (vedomost') -- that is what I remember.

It is ruled; you put down the surname and initials.

A. A list for what - for pay?

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B. No, for the collection....

A. What is its name?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. Very well, I will assume, I will believe, that this was in 1953 when

you collected dues, and you have forgotten.

But since 1956, when you entered the Party, until 1964, you paid Party

dues.

B. Right.

A .

Every month....

B.

Three percent every month.

A. You see, and every month you came to the Secretary of the Party

organization and every time you saw this list.

B.

Right.

A. From this experience, you should know what this list is called.

How is it called?

B. The devil knows - a list; that is all.

A. It is the same in both Komsomol and Party; the only difference is that

one says "VLKSM" and the other "KPSS" .

B. Absolutely the same list.

A. Well, what is the name.

B. I do not know; list, list.

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A. Now, listen; it is foolish that the Komsomol organization Secretary

who collected the dues does not know the name of the list....

B.

Well, list; that is all.

I do not remember anything more.

A. That

is not all; that is not all.

This is the same as yesterday, when you told me

and nothing else".

"It is the anketa

B. Anketa, and then the questions.

A. Rubbish.

Well, like it or not, that is rubbish; because there is

more written on the sheet, and there

is a name

for

it.

something

B. No!

Anketa; that is all.

What kind of anketa?

What?

What about?

There is nothing else written on it.

It is not stamped secret, or top secret.

A. We will return to the matter of how it is stamped and the heading.

What interests me right now is why the Secretary of a Komsomol

organization does not know what this list is called.

B. I do not remember; list.

A. Well, alright; let us go further.

How do you record the Komsomol members in this list?

B. ((B's surname and initials)); then the column in which the Komsomol

card number is recorded.

Then, the last month is recorded... well, the first column -- the

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name; the second column - card number; third column -- the last

month of payment of dues; fourth column - the month for which the

dues are being paid; (XG) and the sixth column - the signatures of

those who have paid.

Alright; you have made the record, and you have the money and signatures

in hand.

What do you do then?

B. I turn the money in to the nearest collection cashier.

The cashier's office was on Kuznetskiy Most'.

A. Well, what else?

B. I receive a receipt from the cashier for having turned in a certain

amount of money.

A. What else?

B. Then I turn the receipt and the list in to the Komsomol Committee.

A.

What then?

B. That is all for the dues.

A. Where was this collection cashier office located?

B. On Kuznetskiy Most'.

Kuznetskiy Most' crosses Zhdanov Street.

It was on the corner of Zhdanov Street and Kuznetskiy Most'.

You enter from the corner.

This was a savings bank or a branch of a rayon bank.

A. Well, what do you do if a member has not paid his dues?

B. I do not do anything; when he pays the next time, I find out the

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reason.

Of course, if he is around, I will find him; but if he is not around...

on leave... he will pay when he returns.

Of course, Komsomol and Party members usually pay in advance if they

know that they are going on leave.

He leaves his Komsomol or Party card with the Secretary of the Komsomol

or Party organization, together with the money which he is supposed

to pay for the next month while he is on leave.

A .

While you were a Secretary of a Komsomol organization -- if you were

one - how many times, at Komsomol meetings, did you give recommendations

for entering the Party?

B. I do not remember.

I do not remember; perhaps one or two times.

A. Do you remember for whom it was?

B. I do not remember.

I think... there was in our First Department, Feliks RAKOVSKIY.

A .

Well, this Feliks RAKOVSKIY makes me sick;

do not mention him again.

B. Why?

A. Because you mention this Feliks RAKOVSKIY, Feliks RAKOVSKIY everywhere.

в.

Well, this was the First Department, where I began working.

A. Is there anyone else?

Because, other than Feliks RAKOVSKIY, I see

no

one

else.

B. Of the girls - I do not remember who, I do not remember.

A. We will return to the old question.

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Inasmuch you could not explain how you got on the rolls of the

Komsomol Committee of the MVD when you began working, where were you

on the Komsomol rolls before entering on duty in the MVD?

B. In a military unit, in Sovetsk.

A. In which military unit?

B. The Navy Intelligence Point -- Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

A. In the city of Sovetsk:

B. Sovetsk of Primorskiy Kray.

A. And why do you say Primorskiy Kray?

B. It is called Primorskiy Kray, formerly Konigsberg, Kaliningrad,

Baltiysk -- this is all Primorskiy Kray.

A. Since when did they start calling it Primorskiy

Kray?

B. I do not know since when; but they called it that, when I was there

for a few months in 1952 -- Primorskiy Kray.

A. There is an official name for the region.

B. Primorskiy Kray; city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy

Kray.

A. What are the big towns in Primorskiy Kray.

B. .

Baltiysk, the former Pillau.

A. Baltiysk, what else?

Is that the only big city?

B. I do not know any more there.

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A .

Well, when first was there a Primorskiy Kray?

B. After the war, of course, because this was a German zone; this was

German territory.

A. Since when did they start calling it Primorskiy Kray?

B. I do not know; I do not know anything more.

A. Is there no other name for this region?

B. City of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

That is how the letters were addressed.

A .

What

is the capital of this Primorskiy Kray?

B.

Kaliningrad; Konigsberg, the former Konigsberg, Kaliningrad.

A. Since when did they

start calling

it Primorskiy

Kray?

B. I do not know since when.

A. Well, I think you should know, if you were there.

B. I do not know.

A. It is difficult for me to believe a man who was there would hot know

what this place was called.

B. I told you -- city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

A. There is no primorskiy Kray there and was none.

B. I even received letters addressed to Primorskiy Kray.

A. Perhaps, in the Far East.

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B. I know that, I know, I know.

I know the Primorskiy Kray itself... Vladivostok.

A. Well, since when was it called....

B. Well, since when, since when?

This territory was incorporated into the Soviet Union when it was

captured from Germany.

This territory is close to Lithuania, Kaliningrad, Baltiysk, Sovetsk,

but since when it has been called Primorskiy Kray,

I do not know.

I was there for several months in 1952.

In Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

A. What was the capital of Primorskiy Kray.

B. Kaliningrad, the former Konigsberg.

A. Why was it called Kaliningrad?

B. They simply renamed the city.

Konigsberg was the German name;

then

it was called Kaliningrad.

B. They simply renamed the city.

Konigsberg was the German name; then

it

was

called Kaliningrad.

A. Just between us, did you really serve there?

B. ((In a low voice)) Yes.

A. Well, I do not insist, and I do not want to repeat it a hundred times --

tell me frankly if you served there or not.

B. Of course!

What should I say?

A. Well, if you served there, then why say such a thing?

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B. What thing?

A. In 1952 and even earlier - but I do not want to say from when --

it

never was called Primorskiy Kray.

B. The city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

What do you mean?

I was there; I know.

A. I want to say that you perhaps are still confusing this with something

else.

B. I am not confusing this with anything.

A. There is no Primorskiy Kray.

B. I know that Primorskiy Kray is in the Far East; I know

that.

A. There never was any here.

It is quite sad that a man who has completed the Institute of Inter-

national Relations does not know the simplest things about Soviet

geography.

((Long Pause)) Well, you worked for a long time in the Second Chief

Directorate; did you ever send an operational letter to this Primorskiy

Kray?

B. No, no; not once.

A. Of course not; there never was such a place.

((Pause)) What is keeping from telling that you never were there?

B. I say that I was there.

How can I say that I was not?

A. How can it be that a man who was there and worked there says that

this is Primorskiy Kray, even though there never…...

SEGRET

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B. The city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray, precisely; precisly, precisely.

A. I ask again - perhaps you are confusing it with something.

B. I am not confusing it with anything.

A. I would like to help you because there never was any Primorskiy Kray

there.

B. Primorskiy Kray; city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

A. Yesterday, I thought well, perhaps the man just made

slip.

В. No, по, по.

such and such.

I remember, even in letters - Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray, military unit

A. What military unit was it?

Do you remember?

B. I do not remember.

A .

While there, in which Komsomol organization were you on the rolls?

B. The only one that we had - in the MRP.

A. The Navy Intelligence Point?

B.

Yes.

A. Approximately how many Komsomol members were there?

B. I am afraid to say - not less than 30.

We had many enlisted men; the officer

component was not large.

There were many enlisted men and petty officers.

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A .

What -- were the enlisted men not Komsomol members?

Well?

B. Well, I say... that is why I say that there were about 30 members.

We had about 15 officers in all.

All of the officers were members of the Party organization.

A. I think it would be logical to say that in such a responsible place

as the Navy Intelligence Point, most of the enlisted mendand petty

officers would be Komsomol members, there they would have been selected

and checked.

Therefore, surely there must have been more than 30 men.

B. Well, understand - there were the members of the Party organization.

A. That is quite understandable... and there were non-Party members.

B. There were those who were not Party members.

A. Well, what was that Komsomol organization called?

B. The Komsomol organization of such and such a military unit.

A .

What military unit?

B. I do not remember the number of the military unit.

A. Well, what was it - Komsomol organization of the military unit?

What kind of a Komsomol organization:

B. A primary Komsomol organization; primary Komsomol organization of

military unit such and such.

A. Who was the Secretary?

B. I do not remember.

SEGRET

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A .

Was he an officer, an enlisted man, a petty officer (serzhant)

B. ((Speaks with uncertainty)) No... he was...

chief petty officer.

a warrant officer... a

A. To whom was this organization subordinate?

B. To the Deputy Chief of Intelligence for Political affairs.

A. To the Deputy Chief....

B. Deputy Chief of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

A. Who was he?

B. I also do not remember.

A. Well, to whom was the Deputy Chief of Intelligence subordinate?

B. To the Political Department, the Political Directorate

of

the Fleet.

A. Political Directorate of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

B. Yes.

A. Well, anyway, you can be more precise -- what was the Komsomol

organization called, and to whom it was subordinate?

Because what you said is not entirely accurate; that is not the way it is

B. I am taking the last point.

The Secretary of the Komsomol organization is subordinate to whom?

To the Deputy….. to the deputy commander of the military unit for

political work.

A. Let us express this more precisely.

If one is an officer in the Navy -- whether in Intelligence or not --

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in the Army, there is a definite Komsomol and Party organization

structure.

B. Right, right.

A. And they have their own titles and names.

You see, when you say that....

B. The primary Party organization of military units....

A. ...For political or political affairs, etc., there is a difference, but

this....

B. I have in mind "for political affairs", "for political affairs" --

deputy commander for political affairs; but this is not political

Why bother with such hair-splitting?

work!

A. This is not hair splitting.

An officer who was there would never say "for political work", because

it will be thought of as low-level.

B. For political affairs.

A. Let us call things by their owa names.

What kind of Komsomol workedid you do there?

What were your responsibilities as a Komsomol member when you were at

the MRP?

B. I was a rank and file Komsomol member.

I could have carried out some separate tasks for the Secretary of the

Komsomol organization.

A. For example?

B. I do not remember.

Perhaps I gave a speech or two; that is all.

SEGRET

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I was there for a short time only.

A. Well, what kind of speech, for example?"

B. I do not remember; well, I do not remember.

A. Well, again, I am inclined to help you.

A man with a higher education, a language,

etc., could do many things

there.

B. I could not do many things, because I was there for a short time.

A. How long were you there?

B. Four months, four and a half months.

A. Let us go back now to the old question - although you are not giving

me the name of the Komsomol organization to which it was subordinate,

how finally did you get on the rolls of the Komsomol Committee of

the MVD?

B. I told you how.

A. But saying that tells me nothing; what you said about speaking with

someone there, but what should go before and after that?

B. Well, I went to the registration group of the Komsomol Committee and

said that I had come

to

be

put on the rolls -- "I am a new

employee

of the Second Chief Directorate"; they asked for my Komsomol card --

"Here is my "Komsomol card"; then they asked me where I had been -- I

told them

I had been there

and there; well, they opened a personnel

card (litsevaya uchetnaya kartochka) on me and put me on the rolls.

A. What else?

B. Nothing

else.

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A. Of course, I can stop here and not ask you any more about it, but my

conclusion is that you, as Secretary of a Komsomol organization and

as a Komsomol member, do not know the Regulations concerning how a

person is put on the rolls in a komsomol organization, not only in

the Komsomol Committee, but in any military unit -- because you could

not even give me the correct name of your Komsomol organization in

the Navy.

B. The Komsomol organization of military unit such and such.

What else?

A. We talked with you earlier about the fact that the Regulations state

how and where the Komsomol organizations are organized....

B. The primary Komsomol organization of military unit such and such.

A. Further, to whom is it subordinate?

B. It is subordinate to the deputy commander for political affairs.

A. Every political worker, deputy commander for political affairs,

according to the Regulations, should supervise the work of the

Komsomol organization.

B. Both the Party and the Komsomol.

A. There is someone who is higher than the primary Komsomol organization,

who is responsible for this.

Who is it to whom this organization is subordinate?

Everyone knows, and it is written in the Regulations, that the Party

guides the Komsomol; and it is true that the "Party god" always sticks

his nose into the Komsomol work - it is his duty.

But there is, above the primary organization, some office to whom it

is subordinate and upon whose instructions the primary organization

works.

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B.

Well, the instructions come from the Political Department; in the

Political Department or the Political Directorate of the Fleet, there

is a Komsomol Committee ((Laughs))

A. I do not intend to explain it to you, but

((In English)) you are completely wrong.

B. I

am telling it the way I know it, but you want....

A. One cannot accept what you say as valid coin when it is not right.

I am trying, with leading questions, to help you....

B. Forgive me; I am not a political worker, but you ask me for such

details.

A. If you were a political worker, I could ask you a thousand other

questions.

I am asking you only what any Komsomol member and the Secretary of

the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate must know.

B. I am answering everything as I know it.

A. You do not know - that is the problem.

B. I answer

as

I personally know it.

A. I make the direct conclusion that you were not a Secretary of a

Komsomol

organization and that you do not know the simplest things

about the Regulations of

the Komsomol.

You know nothing

about the collection of Komsomol dues, except that

there is a list - but you do not know

the name of the list.

B. What do you mean -- I do not know about the dues -- when I have said

how it was done and how I did it?

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A .

That is very simple; we will return to that, also.

I want you yourself to make the explanations.

What did you actually do?

Where were you?

B. I am telling you.

A. How could it happen that a man does not even know....

He came to Moscow, came into the organs of

the KGB - this is not the

crutch factory or the "Do not take me

from

under the

warm

blanket"

Kolkhoz; this is the KGB.

B. ((In a low voice)) Yes.

A. There are certain rules, regulations and other things which you must

know as soon as you enter on duty there, but you cannot explain the

simplest things.

I want to understand; I give you leading questions and others, but

you cannot answer; how is this to be explained?

How is it to be explained?

B. What do you want:

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

A. I want to know this simple thing -- how did you get on the rolls?

B. I told you; I told you how I got on the roils.

A. You said only one thing

-- which anyone could say: that you went to

the Komsomol Committee.

What next?

B. I went to the registration group and said,

"I am a new employee; I am

working in the Second Chief Directorate."

They asked for my Komsomol card; I said, "If you please...."

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They asked me where I had been on the rolls and if I had been de-

registered - I said,

"No".

They asked where - I said I had worked there, I was on the rolls there.

A.. Further?

B. I told them what had happened with me - that I had come on leave and,

while on leave, the question of my transfer from the Navy to the MVD

arose.

So I began to work in the MVD.

They wrote down my Komsomol card number and opened a personnel card

on me....

By the way, komsomol reprimands are recorded on

this personnel card

such things as a severe reprimand with warning and a reprimand.

A. We will get to that when we talk about your punishments.

I think by that time you will be better prepared.

B. What do you mean -- "better prepared"?

A. You will ((speak)) more believably.

A.

Well, what do you mean -- "more believably'?

I am telling you what I have (2G) ((Laughs))

A. You see - you are laughing yourself.

B. Well... I am not laughing; I cannot tell you anything more.

A. I have to laugh because you talk, you explain, but it does not fit -

in any way, you understand.

I try to stick this in ((in order)), but I cannot, in any way.

B. Why can you not?

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A. Because this is nonsense.

B. What - nonsense?

This is life.

A. You yourself are laughing.

B. I laugh because this is quite simply

an

absurd situation.

I tell you ((something, but)) you tell

me I do not know.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

I tell you how it was; you tell me I do not know.

A. How can a person say, "I paid 2%"?

No;

this cannot be, in any way.

Or, for example, the

last hour we were talking,

0...

of age"

"up to 27 years

B. Yes, up to 27.

A. It was 26 the whole time.

They changed it much later, but not 1953, 1954.

B. It ((was)) precisely

so, precisely to 27 inclusive, precisely -

because....

A. You understand... up to 26 inclusive.

But they changed it much later, when you already were in the Party --

if you were ((in the Party)).

B. Well, no; no, no.

A. What are you saying - that I am trying (?to deceive?) you?

B. No, No.

You are mistaken, you are mistaken.

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No, no; you....

A.

When I make a mistake, I admit it immediately.

((Pause)) Well, let us go back to Primorskiy Kray for a minute.

Where did yougget it that this place is called Primorskiy Kray?

B. From where did I get it?

From the fact that they wrote letters to me ((there)).

A. Screw them, these letters!

There is the Administrative-Territorial Division of the Soviet Union

(Administrativno-territorial'noye deleniye Sovetskogo Soyuza), and

there never was a Primorskiy Kray there.

From where did you get this?

B.

But who knows (khren yego znayet) from where I got it... the city of

Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

A. That is what I want to say - from where?

If there was none there, then how, from where?

You made it up.

B. Here is from where.

They told me so (tak skazali mne) .

Letters came

to me ((addressed)) thus... city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy

Kray, military unit

such

and such.

am telling you, but as if I made it up, as if

I made it up....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

Why do I need it, this Primorskiy Kray; I am telling you how it was,

how it was.

Here, a letter

devil knows why!

- ((addressed to)) Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray -- the

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A. Let us not get upset....

There was no....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

B. There was.

A. How can you say there was, when there was none.

B. But I, when, I received letters; but how -- "there was none"?

A. Then were you in some other place?...

B. I was

in no other place....

A. ... ((When)) you received these letters?

B. No, I was not.

A. Think how it must be.

B. Why should I think about it?

A. I do not know why.

I do not know why it was necessary for you to say:

Sovetsk, Primorskiy

Kray; Baltiysk, Primorskiy Kray; Konigsberg, Primorskiy Kray.

A second-grader would laugh.

B. ((In a very low voice)) Primorskiy Kray, from Primorskiy Kray,

myself gave the address ((to someone, the name "unreadable"))....

A. Take, for example, Krasnodar; ((it is)) the center of what kray?

B. Of Krasnodarskiy ((Kray)).

A. So.

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What did you say -- Konigsberg, now Kalinigrad, etc.; ((it is)) of

what kray?

B. To my thinking, now, now kalinigradskiy, Kalinigrad Oblast, now,

Kaliningrad Oblast.

A. Let us proceed from the following - when did KALININ die?

B. Well, why ((talk about)) KALININ here?

Why KALININ here?'

Right after the war, they called it, Konigsberg...

they soon, immediatels

named it Kaliningrad.

A. Again, this is nonsense.

Listen, I simply want that if you do not know, youcdo not say

((anything)); if you know, tell the truth.

I am asking when KALININ died.

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. For your information, I will not say when, you yourself will thing

((of this)) .

Kaliningrad was renamed to honor KALININ after his death.

And Kaliningrad was not Kaliningrad right after the war.

Therefore, for me, there is a legitimate question: Were you ((there))

in 1952?

'How did a person in Sovetsk in 1952 receive letters ((addressed to))

the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray?

This is utter rot (khuynya) .

B.

(XG) I will tell you what; you say Konigsberg - right.

In 1945, I flew from Moscow to Konigsberg, to Konigsberg with father;

here, right away....

A. This already was after the war.

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B. 1945, 1945....

This was when?

July, July-August.

A. This already was after the war.

B. No, this, well, the war had just ended.

This was Konigsberg.

A. I do not contradict this.

B. I do not know when they gave Konigsberg a name.

In 1952, I arrived... in Sovetsk... Baltiysk, Sovetsk....

This was Kaliningrad.

That is all, that is all.

When, I do not know.

A. Since when has there been a Primorskiy Kray in the Far East?

B. I do not know since when.

For a long, long, long time, because you still read books about the

Civil War, the partisans of Primorskiy Kray.

A. And there is such a Primorskiy Kray ((there)), right?

B. There is, there is; right.

A. And the center there?

B. Vladivostok.

A. But it would not be logical to have two Primorskiy Krays in the

Soviet Union.

B. I give you my honest word

-- there is a second Primorskiy Kray.

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I myself was surprised, because I, I have been in Sovetskaya Gavan',

but Sovetskaya Gavan' is also ((in)) Primorskiy Kray, by the way.

A. No one will deny it.

B. Two fleets based in one kray.

The Fifth Fleet -- Vladivostok; our Seventh -- Sovetskaya Gavan' .

A. Think well -- perhaps there is a Sovetsk in that Primorskiy Kray.

B. No, no, no, no;

Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.

Well, what are you saying?

What

are you talking about?

There is no

Sovetsk in that one.

A.

But there is.

By the way, there is.

B. No, No.

A. Again; if you do not know, please, do not say ((anything)).

B. Well, look; I worked there, I had the map, I looked at the map; I do

not remember a city, Sovetsk, there in Primorskiy Kray in the Far

East.

A. If you had worked well there, then you would remember.

We will come back to the map again.

Well, anyway, do you still reckon that you were working as Secretary

of the Komsomol organization?

B. I am not reckoning; why should I reckon?

It was ((so)).

A. Well, how so - when you cannot even answer the simplest things about

the Komsomol?

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SECRET

- 85 -

B. I have said what I remember; how, what I remember, I have said.

You understand what I see - we have been talking,

for the second time,

the second day; I have in mind (XM) ....

((End of Reel #3))

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