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157-10002-10148

' 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992]

Date: 10/08/93

Page: 1

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IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10148

RECORDS SERIES :

TRANSCRIPT

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : SSCIA

FROM :

TO :

TITLE :

TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL

DAIt: 05/30//5

PAGES. : 168

SUBJECTS:

MAHEU, ROBERT

CASTRO

ASSASSINATION

CUBA

HUGHES

BISSELL

VERONA

VARONA

HARVEY, WILLIAM

ROSSELLI

GIANCANA

MAFIA

TRAFFICANTE

CIA

ROWAN, DAN

MCGUIRE, PHYLLIS -

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

CLASSIFICATION : T

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS : P

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 09/30/93

OPENING CRITERIA :

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

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• 2.

Chairman Church.

Would you please take the oath?

Do you swear that everything you will testify to in

these proceedings shall be the truth, the whole truth and

nothing but the truth, so help you God?

MI. O'Connell. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL

Mr. Schwarz.

would you state your name?

MI. O'Connell. My name is James P. O'Connell.

MI. Schwarz. And what is your address?

Mr. O'Connell. 1333 Disinore Avenue, Matrean.

22101,0

Mr. Schwarz. Before we proceed substantively let me

just put on the record some matters.

First, you understand that you have a right to counsel?

Mr. O'Connell. I understand that. I just read it.

Mr. Schwarz.

And you should also be advised that you

have your rights under the Constitution, including your

rights under the Fifth Amendment, if at any point you wish

to assert whatever rights that you do have that are under those

Constitutional provisions.

Do you understand that?

Mr. O'Connell. Yes.

MI. Schwarz.

And if at any time you feel that you

need an attorney you have the right to ask for an

attorney, do you understand that?

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43

410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003

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pills?

Mr. O'Connell.

Trichier.

The man that created them is Des

Raymond

Mr. Schwarz.:.

Did he hand the pills to you?

Mr.

O'Connell. Yes.

Mr. Schwarz. Did he know what the pills were for?

Mr. O'Connell.

I don't think so.

Mr. Schwarz. But he knew they were illegal?

Mr. O'Connell. He knew they were illegal.

Mr. Schwarz. And were the pills not tried out on some

experimental subjects in the u.s.?

Mr. O'Connell. Yes.

Mr. Schwarz. And proven to be lethal?

Mr. O'Connell. Well, to the extent -- I will tell you

that, we used them on hamsters.

Mr. Schwarz. And. also monkeys?

Mr. O'Connell. No, as far as I know, just the hamsters.

Mr. Schwarz. But anyway, you knew they were lethal.

Mr. O'Connell.

Yes.

Mr. Schwarz. And you handed them over to Rosselli?

Mr. O'Connell. Yes.

/ Mr. Schwarz. And had the Technical Services made poison

pills before as far as you know?

Mr. O'Connell. As far as I know. I have no idea.

This was my first experience with that sort of thing.

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98

your possession, that might give you a more accurate timing than

I am giving to you now.

Mr. Madigan.

We don't have it presently.

Mr. O'Connell. I am sure it is over there.

Mr. Wides. With regard to the discussion of

authorization,

would it have been following on Mr. Madigan's point, that this

was a fairly serious

and unusual operation that you were given,

and that you would have asked, is this authorized? Or how dia

the question of MI. Dulles authorizing it come up, as best you

recall?

Mr. O'Conhell. I told you, I knew that Mr. Dulles -- I was

told that Mr. Dulles had authorized it, I can't say quite when

it happened, but I know I was told.

MI. Wides. You testified this morning -- I don't want

to put words in your mouth -- I thought you testified that you

were sure that Mr. Edwards told you at this meeting when he first

gave you the assignment that you were not sure that Mr. Bissell's

also mentioned that when you later met in your office.

Mr. O'Connell. I would stick with that, yes. I think it

probably was when I -- when Colonel Edwards called me he

said, this probably has the blessing of the DCI. '

Mr. Wides. Do you know if br. V. SiRoosevelts who

was head of the Technical Services Division at the 'time, was

witnessing about this?

Mr. O'Connell. I wouldn't want to bet my life that he

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wasn't. But he was at a meeting when the bills were delivered,

and

Ri came over to Colonel Edwards'office.

Mr. Wides.

But you don't recall whether you ever knew

that

dosevelt knew what it was in connection with as distinct

from merely knowing it was a lethal pill, is that right?

Mr. O'Connell. I can't say -- to my personal knowledge,

the discussion never came up when I was there.

I don't think

he is a dummy, and I don't think pretchles is any dummy, and

I think they had a general idea.

But as far as I know they were never officially told.

Mr. Wides. To your knowledge, before you went overseas

no one else in the office of Security, Mr. Bannerman, Mr.

White or Mr. Hall, none of those men of anyone else knew about

the project, only yourself and Mr. Edwards?

Mr. O'Connell. Well, I would say this, to my knowledge

they were never briefed. However, I think I brought up an

incident this morning where Colonel Edwards was on leave and

Colonel King called Mr. Bannerman, who was his

deputy, and assumed that Bannerman knew all about it and started

talking about it, what are we going to do about

this - I don't know what the conversation was about.

And

Bannerman called in and said, what was this all about?

Mr. Wides.

This was in 1962 before you left?

Mr. O'Connell. Yes. It was while I was up in the office.

And I said, I don't have the authority to brief you on it.

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127

Mr. Wides.

Were you ever aware, whether you were formally

notified of just got a rumble or heard through the grapevine,

that the CIA was getting some information about these threats,

or some information about groups who might pose a threat in the

Washington area, not

from Bureau sources or military sources,

but from CIA sources, did you ever hear any rumble of that kind?

MI. O'Connell.

Yes.

Mr. Wides. What did you hear?

Mr. O'Connell. The only way I got involved in it was that!

Howard Osborn would have a nine o'clock meeting every

morning with his deputies.

And they had a proprietary organization in the Office of

Security which I think had informants.

Now, I don't know their identities, but it would come out

in the meeting, and they would have some names for them.

I

couldn't tell you what they were.

Mr. Madigan. What was the proprietary called?

MI. O'Connell. The name that strikes me -- and I

know part of it, but I couldn't tell you exactly -- I think it

was

Anderson --

Mr. Madigan.

Anderson Stuart?

Mr. O'Connell. Anderson Stuast, something like that.

Mr. Wides. You say you think they had informants?

Mr. O'Connell. They obviously did, I guess, because the

way this would come out, so-and-so advised at a meeting last

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night.

Mr. Wides.

If you associate that with andersoned

you must have been told more than just, we have an informant.

How would it be discussed at the meeting, through this

proprietary we have access to information?

Mr. O'Connell.

No, it usually would be the Deputy

Director. that that was under. And that was under OIS.

Mr. Wides. Victor White?

MI. O'Connell. Victor White.

Mr. Wides. And what would he say about how Anderson!

fitted into the picture?

Mr. O'Connell. That never came up. I just drew that

conclusion, that they had potential.

MI. Wides. Why would you assume that they used a proprie-

tary as opposed to just having some agents penetrate a group?

Why would you think in terms of their using the Andorion

no on

Mr. O'Connell. I can tell you what I think.

First of all, I wouldn't want to use government employees.

Mr. Wides.

Why couldn't the CIA personnel just run

agents who would be --

Mr. O'Connell.

That is in fact what they were doing.

These people that were proprietary were not CIA employees.

were

Montract teams.

They

Mr. Wides.

Why would you have thought that they would have

gone the route of using the proprietary people as opposed to

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143

Did you have any knowledge during the 1970-1971 time frame

of any effort outside of Florida with regard to Cubans to fire

on the Keys or on the Florida area there with a boat that

would be disguised as a Russian boat, which was really a

group of people, some of whom were assets of the Agency?

MI. O'Connell. No.

Mr. Madigan. You

never heard of anything like that?

Mr. O'Connell. Nothing of that, no.

Mr. Madigan. Did you ever run across a fellow by

the name of Jerry Henning in your dealing with Roselli

and Maheu?

Mr. O'Connell. No.

Mr. Madigan. You never heard of the name?

Mr. O'Connell. I never heard of the name.

MI. Madigan. Did you handle the Agency contact with Mr.

Maheu about having him coordinate or set up or be involved

in

uppl

emale

ore his for dign leader back no 1950?

Mr. O'Connelll. A couple of them,

as

a matter of fact.

Mr. Madigan.

A couple lot

foreign leaders?

Mr. O'Connell.

Yes.

Mr. Madigan. What was your involvement in that? Am I

right about 1959?

Mr. O'Connell. It could be. There were two different

occasions.

Mr. Madigan. What is your recollection as to the dates?

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Well, the first one was

144

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Mr. O'Connell.

1959.

Mr. Madigan. And how did that come about? Why did it go to

you in the Office of Security as opposed to --

Mr. O'Connell. Just like this other one came down from the

DDP, it came from the

I recall it. And

Division, as

was coming into the --

MI. Wides. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Madigan. What did your first contact with Maheu

with regard to this project involve?

Mr. O'Connell. Well, the request came to the Security.

Mr. Madigan. It came down to you?

Mr. O'Connell. It came through Colonel Edwards.

Mr. Madigan. To you?

Mr. O'Connell. Yes.

Cua

con pan

Mr. Madigan.

The

ender.

Mx. O'Connell. AThe

Tender

hids

Mr. Madigan. So did you contact Maheu directly?

Mr. O'Connell. Yes.

Mr. Wides. In this instance you were talking about

oul a

Compan tonsh

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145

Mr. O'Connell.

e

was visiting New York,, and it was

proposed

state visit, and so.forthyand he/really

wanted some female companionship. And his case officer, the

Agency's case officer that was handling the leader, said,

let's stick to business while you are

in New York. And we will

take you out to the west Coast

and

that is going to be a

pleasure trip, and we will see

tha

you meet the right people.

So Maneu Lined up ehis young ladý›

who was a starlet, a

little cutie, and

they knew the type he liked

size and

everything

they threwa cocktail

par

normal

talI

Mr. Madigan.

Maheu did?

Mr. O'Connell.

was a fellow named Gregg Ba

He

used to, be

to some

verytamous actress,

and he knows

just

out anything and everything that walks

Skirts in L.A.

and Hollywoo

So Maheu called Gregg and asked.

Thim if he could come up

with something according.

to:

ntain specs. And he did. And' she

was placed in the rig

leader went

atmosphere,

the fight time and the

head over heels in love with

her,

he.

extent

was beyonas

named

Norman Pal

OLve

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Mr. O'Connell. No. Nocal Paul.

at one

ime was the

head

Division that 1 menti

ago,

But

he

wasn't involved in it

SO

wh

we thought was going to be a passing fancy, he

decided he had

LO

go back to New York,

he insisted that she

go back with him.

Well, this was getting

ittle embarrassing, because here

he is the head of his country,

and he has got this gal on the

strings.

So, we agreed

to it and she agreed

it, but we had to keep

her in one

ho

2e1

- she was staying at the Waldorf-

Astoria

rana

he was staying in another place. And

e

got a

house

out

ise

Long Island so they conid, have their sendevouz.

they

would

some time, together

Mr. Madigan.

s that an

Agency house?

Mr. O'Connell.

ented: the house esom a

Ivate

Who was a

somebody

was

the

Agency

Mr. Madigan.

Did you handle that?

Mr. O'Connell.

field

office handled

that

the

Oir

Mr. Madigan.

the 0

1 ce

Mr. O'Connell

They handled procuring

house out in

Long

Island.

oung lady "

And then they alfo supplied people to stay with

she was in New York

because they didn"t

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147

want to havethes running around so it wasn't bolding, her

against her

wallo

It was just

to give her somebody

that could

aSSa

LSt ber 10

any sequirements she had while

she was waiting to

the leades,

Mr. Madigan.

And

was that the end of that particular

project that you recall?

Mr. O'Connell. That was the end of it,

except

that we had?

"some repercussions; where he went back, to-bus

Countisy

and

was. lovesick, and he was going to give up

the throne,

which would have caused all sorts of consternation in the Agency,

because that was the last, guy

that the Agency wanted to leave.

But he was communicating with her for a while, and then

eventually we

got her a job in a local musical - that is

all eras. she

was interested in, tying to make it in the.

neates.

And.

they asifted off, and the subsequently married.

Mr. Wides. Upid the Agency monitor

the mail

between him

and the lady. either

betore she got

it or

LeM

arter she got

st?

Mr. O'Connell.

Yes.

MI. Wides. Before?

Did they intescept the malia os how was

the, main, hanailed, through special chanels?

Mr. O'Connell. We.

set.

up a post office box at

his request.

and we serviced the bos

Mr. Wides.

na would you look at the mail, before it was

passed on?

MI. O'Connell. &

wouldn't

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Mr. Wides.

Mr. O'Connell.

Did, the Agency?

The

agency

Mr. Wides. Da

the leader

know that

Mr. O'Connell.

Mr. Wides.

how aid the

Letters

go back and forth?

Mr. O'Connell.!

sion!

don-

would just turn it ove

Mr. Wides.

bid she

understand that the Agency. was sone

alow.

Involved in the passage of return mail. from the lady

to

the

world, leader

that she just didn't drop

it on the

mailbox

on the corner?

ofitce,

awas

Mr. O'Connell.

She delivered it

somebody

up in the stolla

recall

don"t hold me to that, but I think that

it

Mr. Wides.

and

then it

was sent

do

your impres

to beadguarters.

Was

on that the Agency

read

that

mail,

too g

on its way

back?

Mr. O'Connell.

woul

imagine so. because it got out of

our control!

Mr. Wides.

Let me

go: back.

with regard

the mail coming

in

is it Your

imagi

nation

have information

that the agency

Wals

100k i

sat the letters?

Mr. O'Connell. &

knew that was being done.

Mr.

wides.

ou know from personal, knowledge.

you were

told by people

involved?

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was

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the peogle that

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Mr. O'Connell.

were doing

told

me.

Mr. Wides.

That

actually reading, t

the mail

and then

t, to the lady

Mr. O'Connell.

Mr. Wides.

And a

ou.

Khow

Wal

"ther pasty. bei

aware

the fac

Mr. O'Connell.

Mr. Madigän. Yousaid there was a second instance.

there a second instance watch involved a femaile

this country.

swas it, sending one overseasp

Mr. O'Connell:

The girl was recruited in this

country,

brat

was: sent

overseas.

Mr. Madigan.

And that was

the leades. you had

told

us about

earlier off the second,

Mr. O'Connell.

Mr. Madigan.

And

was that

entire sitation bandied

you onge

got over there?

oversea

Mr. O'Connell

Yes

Mr. Madigan.

was there any business of the leader

coming back here with her?

Mr. O'Connell. Not with her

- He

came back sometime, mayb

year Later o

and, wanted to know whether he could see her

again. And ve made arrangements fox her to attend the part

that was given by kay star, the singer. And they threw

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150

little coc

rty for him, I think it was in San Francisco.

And we had.

gal, ve got in touch with her again," and she el

attend the party.

But'

it was a'social affair, and there

was

no operation involved in at

Mr. Madigan. Did Maheu set that up?

Mr. O'Connelll. Yes.

Mr. Mdigan. Both the original contact and the later party

in San Francisco?

Mr. O'Connell. Yes.

Mr. Madigan. And were those the only two times now that

he was involved in the operations field?

Mr. O'Connelll. Oh, no. He did a lot of other things.

Mr. Madigan. Let me ask you this question.

When Maheu was having his problems with the authorities,

was there any reference back to his involvement in those kind of

activities, or was the only discussion about his role in

the so-called assassination plot?

Mr. O'Connell. Well, I am not even so sure that they got

into that aspect of it. It was just that he was involved

to the extent that he had set up the operation against Rowan,

or he was the one that got in touch with Dubois to do it.

Mr. Wides. When did you come back from overseas?

Mr. O'Connell. July of 1965.

Mr. Wides. After you came back did you learn of a time,

either after you came back or very shortly before you came

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veillance?

Mr. O'Connell.

Never, to my knowledge he never got

involved in that, officially or otherwise.

Mr. Wides. Or surreptitious entry?

Mr. O'Connell. He did one surreptitious entry for us once.

MI. Wides. What were the specifics of that?

Mr. O'Connell.

There were a group of tranian

students.

the Agency, wask"sponsoringthem, and they were going to they

Georgetown School ot minguisesles:" And they were staying

in a rooming house up there right outside of Georgetown some-

here. And one of the students Came to the case officen

tand

said that one of the group was acting very suspiciously,

taking a lot of notes where they were not supposed to be taking

notes, or certainly after operational briefings, and he would go

back to his room and he would write voluminous notes. And

he thought that was very strange that this guy was not acting

as he should.

And that aroused the suspicion othercase officersa

And they wanted to know whether we would get in and photo-

graph what he was writing to see whether he was really

violating his agreement.

So I called Maheu and he went up to the rooming house, and

he went to the people who owned the house and asked if they

had a room to rent and she had one. And he did know where the

students were staying. And she showed him one room. And

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he said, anything up on thenext floor? And as luck would

have it, she had the adjacent room.

So he brought what would appear to be a suitcase up there,

which was his photographic equipment. And we knew the students

were in school, and the case officer;was going to alert us if

they came back, so he wouldn't get caught in the act.

And he went in, it was a very simple matter. It was

a tin box that he could open with a paper clip and he took it out

and photographed it, and put the case back in the drawer and

locked up and left.

But the, case officer was a gal, a woman. And" she was

looking at one part of the school over there. And this guy

comes out the back door. And as Maheu was coming down the

stairs the students were coming up, with amatter of maybe

a split second timing.

MI. Madigan. This wasn't Mendoz?

Mr. O'Connell. No. this was a DoP case officer.

Mr. Wides. What period was this that we are talking

about?

Mr. O'Connell. This would have been about 1955.

Mr. Wides. And other than that, and the two incidents

involving female companioship, what other kinds of sensitive

things would he undertake?

Was that in the period that you

were paying him 500 a month?

Mr. O'Connell. We stopped paying the 500 way back when he

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nature as opposed to routine?

Mr. O'Connell. We had word that they wanted to --

apparent ly: th iseforeign leader had visited the Kremlin, andave

were reasonably certain - he was quite a lady's man, and he d

liked just about any time, to be accommodated?

1S0:

knew. that he"went to the Kremlin and stayed

sem.

Division wanted os

come up

thra singateà

Photograph

im that chowed him going through

thenaet ot?

taking

on

imulated a

back, dhop

that

Looked

like

o Kthe

Kremlin

and outside"

you could seen the

wers

nay

evesything. and the furniture, was

according to what. they ha

And this was all done by people that knew generally what

they looked like.

Now, we got Bob to make that film.

Mr. Wides.

thatche agency

knew

that the

had:

made a film of thelforeign leader when he was ind

Russia and was hoping to have a counterfeit film which they would

Circulate in the country, thereby making the foreign leader

angry at the

Soviets,

was that the purpose?

Mr. O'Connell. I don't know whether they knew that the

Soviets had made: the film. But the purpose of the exercise

was to have a film circulated

in his own country,or &

neighboring countries, that would make him quite upset with

the Soviets

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Mr. Wides. You mean they thought that the Russians

film?

(had made a

MI. O'Connell Exes, to embarrass him:

Mr. Madigan.

And that was accomplished as far as you know?

Mr. O'Connell. The film was made, but they never did

release it, because things started to get better with the

leader, and they felt that they wouldn't use it.

Mr. Madigan.

the production of this thing?

Were Agency facilities used by Maheu for

Mr. O'Connell. No. I hired a small independent studio in

Los Angeles.

Mr. Madigan. And did Agency officials fly out there,

the ones that knew about the backdrop and all that? How was

that done??

Mr. O'Connell. It seems to me that they were just --

at this point I am not too sure whether they superimposed it,

I guess is the word, with that background. I am not so

sure at this point, it has been so long ago. That was away in

the mid-fifties.

Mr. Wides. Could we get back to the question that we had

started on, which was the files and where they would exist?

You said that the operational files from all of your dealing

with him would be in the Family Jewels, because they were

all

sensitive admissions.

Mr. O'Connell. Yes.

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Mr. O'Connell. No.

Mr. Wides.

Or Max Gonzales.

Mr. O'Connell. No.

Mr. Wides.

While you were down there - and this

may overlap the question that. Mr. Madigan asked before, but

I think it is a little more -- did you have any awareness of

any other efforts apart from Mr. Verona by Cubans in connec-

tion with the Agency to try and assassinate Castro?

Mr. O'Connell. No, none whatsoever.

MI. Wides. I don't have any other questions.

Mr. Madigan. In your operational activities with Mr.

Maheu, particularly in the New York area, did you ever have con-

tact with a private investigator by the name of A. J.

Woolston-Smith?

Mr. O'Connell. No, I never heard of him.

Mr. Wides. Do you know why there were two field

offices in New York, two iffices in Manhatten?

What was the difference?

MI. O'Connell. The cover. one was under Treasury cover

and the other under Defense.

Mr. Wides. Were there two offices?

Mr. O'Connell. Why, they had them, it just grew like

Topsy. They had two offices in Washington, and they had two

offices in New York. And really the basis - it was that that

was the way they started, they figured they needed two

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different type covers because of the type of work they were

doing.

Mr. Wides. What would the New York offices do as dis

tinct from the Manhattan offices, or vice versa?

Mr. O'Connell. Nothing. They were basically investigative

offices.

Mr. Wides. They just happened to have two?

Mr. O'Connell.

They had two.Onexwas.downtowataghtoff

wan aStreets and the other tone: athe timet wasnatina, street.

The Manhattan field office. And then they eventually merged.

Now they are over on Madison Avenues I think.

Mr. Wides. Thank you very much. That concludes the session.

And we appreciate your staying so long.

(Whereupon, at 1:25 p.m., the hearing was concluded.)

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