Originator: FBI
From: SAC, CG
To: DIRECTOR, FBI
Document date: 02/05/1964
Document type: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

4/21/201

AGENCY: FBI

RECORD NUMBER :

124-10302-10035

RECORD SERIES: HQ

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 29-31889-217

Document Information

ORIGINATOR: FBI

FROM: SAC, CG

TO: DIRECTOR, FBI

TITLE :

Released under the John F. Kennedy

Assassination Records Collection Act of

1992 (44 USC 2107 Note]. Case#:NW

64578 Date: 12-14-2022

DATE:

02/05/1964

PAGES:

11

SUBJECTS :

DOCUMENT TYPE :

CLASSIFICATION:

RESTRICTIONS :

CURRENT STATUS :

DATE OF LAST REVIEW :

[Restricted]

PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

Unclassified

4

Redact

05/16/1998

OPENING CRITERIA:

INDEFINITE

COMMENTS: INC LHM

v9.1

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 1

56

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## Page 2

TO

Aleon

:

SUBJECT:

ST

OPTIONAL FORM NO. 10

5010-106-03

MAY 1962 EDITION

CESA GEN. REG. NO. 27

UNITED STATES GC

NMENT

Memorandum

R.

DIRECTOR, FBI (29-31889)

SAC, CHICAGO (29-1999) (RUC)

JAMES RIDDLE

HOFF A.;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE, aka.;

ET AL

FRA; Etc.

00 :

DETROIT

DATE: February 5, 1964

ALL INFORMATION CONTAINED

HEREIN IS UNCLASSIFIED

DATE 10-18-948Y Sp8 MAC/KSR

ReBulet 1/27/64.

Enclosed for the Bureau, Detroit and

Memphis are

a letterhead memorandum

recorder worn by ROBERT C. MEISSNER during his meeting with

JOSEPH VERHELLE in Detroit on January 10, 1964. This

supplemental transcript resulted from several reviews of

tapestprepared by Chicago and the FBI Laboratory.

No

further tapegreviews are contemplated by Chicago.

FDetroit

and Memphis should disseminate a copy

of-therenclosed letterhead memorandum to WILLIAM FRENCH

and WALTER J, SHERIDAN respectively.

ão The original tape, plus the 2 dub tapes prepared

by Chicago and the 2 tapes prepared by the Laboratory will

be sent to Detroit under separate cover.

34

ENCLOSURE

Bureau

(Encls.

4)

-

Detroit

(29-1432) (Encls.

2

- Memphis

(72-43) (Encls.

2)

- Chicago

GTJ : MAQ

(7)

29.31889-219

2-17

10 FEB TO 1964

1: DEOL OE INCLICE

53 FEB 1 9 1964

= 8!

siblised

AAs Criminal Division

віо-60

Attention:

Mr. Walter J.

sheridad"

Noem 2609

BECEIT

- retained

2-13:61

Pickles dester

3-2-65

7к St 10 3.....

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 2

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## Page 3

In Reply, Please Refer to

File No.

UNITED

• STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Chicago, Illinois

February 5, 1964

ALL INFORMATION CONTAINED

HERCINES UNCLASSITILU

DATE MAC MACKSe

(JFIL)

JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE;

ET AL

The following is the transcription of a tape made

by an Edwards binaural pocket tape recorder worn by Robert

C. Meissner during his meeting with Joseph Verhelle in Detroit,

Michigan, on January 10, 1964:

"This is Special Agent William F. Hood, Federal

Bureau of Investigation, Chicago, Illinois. I have just

installed a tape recording device on the person of Mr. Robert

C. Meissner at his residence in Hinsdale, Illinois, and this

Long inaudible conversation

(V)

• . . . that $200,000 a year is a hell of a lot of money to

pay out for taxes.

Inaudible

(M)

...• to a charity?

(M) Did he actually misappropriate

(V)

• to my way of thinking

Inaudible

(V)

I have an attorney, who is probably the best attorney in

town.

I sent him a letter.

Inaudible

(V)

• They don't own it

shareholders

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 3

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JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE;

ET AL

(M) Uh huh

(V)

And there's a shareholder's meeting on the 20th.

There is in

every bank all over

the

country.

• Uh huh . . .

(V) . . So they have

gone away and put in a million dollars.

Inaudible

(V)

• . . theoretically I'm not supposed to know this

(M) Do the shareholder's know what's goin on?

(V)

No, I told them yesterday.

(V)

• • Hoffa's in jail

•(V)

They met..'

and they were still in session about 3:35

Hm

. hm

(V)

(V)

the commissioner's coming in.

catch hold of him. . . he doesn't know I've come

down

Inaudible

(M)

again?

(V) Yeah, • •

(M) Oh, really:

(V)

Put it in

(M)

• if those guys get out could you take the bank over

I can get $5,000,000 if I telephone • •

• as equity or deposit?

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 4

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## Page 5

(V)

(V)

(V)

JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE;

ET AL

As

no, no

as

capital

Inaudible

• equity has been cancelled because •

That's the only way to keep that thing going.

Now

what they can do is trick the stockholders into believing

• discredit

:. along Michigan that as . .

Senator Mansfield ... it slander of creditor

Inaudible

• privileged anyway ..

"r,

(V)

(M)

(M)

Yeah

•

• Jimmy . .

(M)

Yeah, sure • •

• . He'd put in the $5,000,000

Inaudible

(M)

Well, that's a wonderful bank

Inaudible

(M) Oh, is that the one they gave this big line of credit to? •

(V) An unlimited line

...

(l) Oh, did they do a favor for somebody or something?

(V) No, they goofed . .

(M) It wasn't where they owed somebody a favor and they had to

give

(V)

they were just stupid.

- 3-

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 5

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## Page 6

JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE;

ET AL

(M)

(V)

the kind of bank director not to have.

• everything about it.

give them the money...

• make them continue to

Inaudible

(V).

• stuff they put on windows to keep the sun out

and these people make a hell of a lot of that stuff. They

probably.... and that would be pretty bad

SO

I said fine and everything was lovely until they got

money so these guys didn't want to pay until 90 days after they

collect their money.

(V)

Inaudible

So I think they're in trouble too

• not in trouble,

what they're doing is taking the dough outta there and

stickin' it in their pocket . ..

Inaudible

(M) Is it a well known family or just some fellows who are

comin fast?

Inaudible

(M) How can Hoffa help on a thing like that?

(M) Does he have that kind of money lyin around

one of the welfare funds?

come from.

(V) Through the welfare funds sure

(M) No payments till fall. Good golly

the Public Bank has to live with

• •

•and that's what

(V) . . they made an agreement to pick up all the .

regardless

of what and..

(M) • . they have no control over the terms that these people put

on their . ..

- 4 -

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 6

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## Page 7

JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE;

ET AL

Inaudible

(M) Well, whoever heard of something like this taking five

years ...

(V) Well, it can only happen in Detroit

More inaudible conversation

(M) Do they have that kind of money?

(V)

They don't have that kind of money which is

to the hilt

•up

Inaudible conversation

(M) As a director you're not liable

•

double, are you?

(V) No, as a director you're liable for everything . .

(M)

in other words by giving them this letter you're

putting them on notice.

(V)

We're putting them on notice.

they don't have to be

put on notice to become liable

Inaudible

(V) I knew what their game was .

(V) I had the unfortunate

experience of getting caught here

in

Detroit with a lot of people I know and I had to collect the

money from them . . $100,000 I got •

• I had to go over there

and tell them that

...

• I collected money from all these

so-called socialites here in this town.

(M) You haven't been to Chicago in the last couple of weeks •

(V) Inaudible

(M) I just wondered

you know if

-5 -

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 7

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## Page 8

JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE;

ET AL

(V)

had

• Sully Sherone our attorney, he told me that he

seen Jimmy, of course they were on this negotiation and

he was the one

who told me about

• this was actually

before it was in the paper that they're moving down to

Chattanooga and that

• tough one

.. I know from the

work we've done in that state and knowing

that state, they

don't like outsiders.

I don't see how he's gonna come out unless

they get a fix in there. I just don't know how. This is

the toughest one he's ever had.

Inaudible

(V).... Jimmy's head attorney

(M) Whose, Jimmy's head attorney? Which one is that?

(V) That's the fellow

from

town here.

(M) Oh, he's from Detroit . . .

Inaudible

(V)

• . . I happened to walk in his office

... and he had

just come back

•.. this was before they got the move

and he says you know this thing happened . . . there isn't

an attorney who can tackle this.

They're all

scared to

death and this guy's staying down in Washington.

(M) Well, I'm not so sure that that isn't actually gonna be the

route, that, they can

get some help down there cause ...

working as we did

• . . that's a practical state

•. • and on

the other hand I've never seen, you know you talk about

clannishness up in New Hampshire or the clannishness out on

the North Shore in Chicago.

Those people are all related to

each other and unless you're in, you're out and they don't

like anybody from the outside.

Now that would be true ..

they wouldn't like Jimmy but on the other hand, they're not

gonna like Bobby either . ..

(M) One thing that concerns me though is when we talked' in Washington

and talked about the possibility of Chicago and so on . ..

-6 -

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 8

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## Page 9

JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARIONE;

ET AL

(M)

(V)

I can't see how it's gonna do one darn bit of good to have the

fix in Chicago.

If he gets convicted in Tennessee, because

if he's convicted in Tennessee and comes to Chicago with a

recent felon, he's had it.

No matter how much your Judge might

help . . . because under

those circumstances.

•.. it's-just too soon . . .

(M)

Inaudible

• At least we can keep track of it in Chicago because

we'll be in a position to help... apparently they're just

gonna

make sure that the one down South is ...

I don't know why .

Inaudible

(V) I don't think it's helped him a lot to get it moved.

(M)

Well, I think as a matter of fact, it's probably hurt because

this is a little town...

(M)

Sort of a home town type thing where everybody knows everybody

and

there is certainly no industry there compared tọ Nashville.

• in an industrial community. why he might just on the

law of averages get friendlier

(M) . . . . that bothers me because you surely think that ..

(V) He's the fellow I met before

....

(M)

They have, they have. .

(M)

his and we've worked with Clements and we've worked with

• and these are practical guys

(V). Well, Clements is . . . I understand a practical

(M)

.. and anybody that's on the bench down there is gonna

listen

•• • which is from

that point of view a practical thing

but it bothers me cause he's gotta come out of Tennessee I

think without a conviction otherwise when he comes to Chicago

-7-

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 9

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## Page 10

JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE ;

ET AL

Inaudible

(M)

I think that it could be done,

I really do .

•ah .

• and it

can be done

fast but . . ah

if they're

gonna move, they're

gonna have to move and move

fast.

(V) .... true ....

(V) It can't be done by Jimmy, it's got to be done by somebody

else .

(M)

I agree absolutely, it's gotta be somebody in an entirely different

industry, you as a

banker or somebody like myself as an engineer

that can, that has other business down there, other reason

to be talking

to these people... can have nothing to do with

the situation' down in Chattanooga

at

all but. . ah . . I think

it can be done but it costs money.

(V) Like, any idea?

(M) Well, I would just guess, I would think that . . ah . . to

delude the top guy is gonna cost a quarter of a million bucks.

Maybe even

half a million.

Campaign contributions I don't

think they're interested in.

I think they'd be interested

in

real money.

• Maybe

.. • deposited out of the United States on

a COD basis, that way you know somebody doesn't get paid before

they get through.. ah. cause they work on the honor

they always have. but that the

oys madow her reason i know is that even though we have this

bankruptcy in . . all kinds of interstate highway stuff and

you have to be qualified

and say we i okay

• • • qualified

just to do a the count or out of they re doking on cash y

that's it. No hitches, no problems.

Inaudible

(M) Do you think you can get them to come up with that money . . :

(M) Did you ever talk to Jimmy about me, you told me you were going

to ...

-

-

NW 64578 Docld:32310091 Page 10

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## Page 11

JAMES RIDDLE HOFFA;

DOMINICK EDWARD BARTONE;

ET AL

Inaudible

(M) You wouldn't tell him ah who I am

(V) No, I wouldn't . .

(M) You'd work with him period

(M):

• that makes sense . . .

(M)

at all '

Well, as a matter of fact, I don't want to know anything

about it either but I wouldn't want to know about it.

All I'd want to do is . . .

Inaudible

(M)

(V)

Is that right

- .

sometimes its

•

(M) Well, I suppose so

Long inaudible conversation"

The tape recorder was concealed on Meissner's person

by Special Agent William F. Hood prior to Meissner flying to

Detroit and was removed immediately upon his return to O 'Hare

International Airport where he was met by Special Agents William

во at арок

F. Hood and Gale T. Johnson at approximately 2:40 P.M., CST,

January 10, 1964. Upon removal of the recorder, it was noted

that the supply reel of the recorder had been completely emptied.

The prefix (M), for Meissner, and (V), for Verhelle,

vere used to identify the person speaking wherever identification

was possible.

This document contains neither recommendations nor

conclusions of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. It is the

-9-

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