TRANSCRIPT:REEL #6. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN, 31 JULY/3 AUGUST 1965.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/31/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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AGENCY FILE NUMBER : NOSENKO RECORDS

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Assassination Records

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(44 USC 2107 Notel.

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TITLE : TRANSCRIPT :REEL #6. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN,

31 JULY/3 AUGUST 1965.

DATE : 07/31/65

PAGES

61

SUBJECTS : NOSENKO

DERYABIN

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BELIEVED RELEVANT (NBR). ATTACHED IS HSCA STAFF REVIEW

FORM DATED 9 MAY 1978. SEE F34 FOR KEY TO TRANSCRIPT.

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TRANSCRIPT

NOSENKO Interrogation

31. July 1965

3 August 1965

Reel #6

RETIRED FILE

JOB-81 - 00175R

BOX 2 FOLDER 7

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per 001 70-17

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SECRET

REEL # 6

30 July 1965

3 August 1965

TRANSLATION

A.

... So that we can find a common language.

No matter how much we have talked today, it is impossible to believe that

you were there, in the Baltic, etc.

B. I told you how I was.

A. I want to understand what 1s the matter; it is in no way understandable

to me - you can imagine that 1f a man were a counterintelligence officer,

or -- at that time -- an intelligence officer, if he was there, he would

remember something.

B. I told you what I did.

What else could I have done if I did not do that?

What else can I tell you?

I did not do anything else there.

A.

Perhaps it would be better to say, "I was not there".

B. I had not been there, I would say, "I never was there".

Why do I need this - to get confused here?

A. If "I was not there", then, of course, "I" did not do anything there.

B. I told you what I did.

A. Well, the last question for the day - how do you explain that earlier you

said you were there for quite a long time?

Earlier, you said that you had been on Rugen Island and somewhere else.

B. No; I ... just a minute... I did not say it that way.

A. This is a fact; but then, you said that you were not there.

You see?

SEGRET

B. Way, why?

I told you.

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-2.

A. That is not a justification.

This is not the talk of an intelligence officer.

A man can make a mistake; but you cannot say

at the beginning that you

were there and there and there, and then when they ask you about it, find

some difficulties in answering; and then you say that you do not know why

you said it and that you were not there.

B. Again, in this case, they will not believe ....

((XG; A and B' speak at the same time.))

The question about me was resolved while I was

in Moscow on leave in June

1952.

Even the question of my study was discussed.

I refused to take training.

Then the decision was made to send me to the ((Navy Intelligence)) point.

At that period of time, at that time, at that time when the decision was

made and it was decided to send me to that point in Sovetsk, the point was

in Rostock, and the idea was to send me to Berlin and from there to Rostock.

A. I know about that and the rest.

My question was from this field, but was not posed that way.

B. I did not get there; why?

Because the base was moved, was moving ....

A. ((In the beginning)) ... you said that you had been there, but then you said

you had not been there and you said that you did not know why you had said

you had been there -- "I was not there".

B. Because, actually, it happened that I was directed to

to Rostock;

I did

not go there; why did I not go there?

Because the base had been moved, and they did not know where it was to move

from Rostock.

A. In life, it goes this way -- If a man was there ....

SECRET

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B. And I said that I would not go there -- "why should I go from one city to

another?

Make a decision on where I am to go, and I will go there".

A. ((Signals end of meeting. ))

I do not want you to become upset.

((End of 30 July 1965 Session))

SEGRET

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( (3 August 1965 Session))

B. ((Asks for a cigarette;

speaks in a very low voice.)) You know, I want

to say a word

about Sovetsk, Proimorskiy Kray.

You know, it is not just my memory

It is another thing -- perhaps I am confused about the kray, but there is

somthing connected with "Sovetsk by the see (primorskly)" -- either

Primorskiy Rayon or Sovetsk By the Sea.

And why?

You know, I was thinking - "What is it?"

Somehow I have connected Sovetsk with Primorskiy.

The thing is that yourself

said, "Here is Sovetsk" …..

There are many Sovetsks

"Here is Sovetsk."

-- apparently, in all probability, to differentiate this

Sovetsk from another .. this Sovetsk.

I have in mind the Sovetsk "by the sea (primorskly)", in order to differentiate

it from another - this is why, in my memory, Sovetsk is something connected

with "primorskly (by the sea)"... either "Sovetsk Primorskly" or "Sovetsk of

Primorskiy Rayon" ... well, Sovetsk by the sea.

Now, another thing - this Sovetsk is a very small place; it is not even a

city; there was no raykom there ... nothing.

Well, precisely, "Sovetsk by the sea", in my memory ....

A. Well, if "Sovetsk by the sea", what else?

B. It could be this way... it could be this way

I do not remember, I do not remember.

It could be this... "Kaliningrad Oblast, City of Sovetsk by the sea" or

"of Primorekly Rayon"

... I do not know.

I, how ... well, Sovetsk by the sea... It pointed out

"Sovetsk -- by the sea".

In my memory, it is "Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray".

I myself understand: you have

reproached me for my ignorance -- that I do

not know geography, although I graduated from an institute

.. * .

I know very well that there Is only one Primorskly Kray -- in the Far East;

there is no Primorskiy Kray here.

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Why?

I have thought about It -- why "Primorskly Kray"?

It could be that during the war this was

one of the fronts... "primorskiy

rayon (a rayon by the sea)"….. "morskoy kray (a coastal kray)" ...

"primor'ye (coastal area)".

On the map, you yourself see that there is a "Primorsk" and a "Primor'ye"

I had not seen the map before this; they did

not show it to me

... .

Everything Indicates that there is something ... "primorskiy"

... Sovetsk.

1. What there is ... there is no Sovetsk in Kaliningrad Oblast which is located

on a spit.

B. Well, look, one minute... not on the spit, before you go out on the spit.

I will tell you even more -- Sovetsk is just a little place ... Sovetsk ...

there is ... a narrow-gauge railway ... but it does not go onto the spit.

The narrow-gauge railway went to Baltiysk ... Sovetsk... there was a check-point

(shlagbaum) before the spit... they checked passes

... Sovetsk ... before

going out on the spit.

A. Inasmuch as you have raised this question, I wanted to remind you that again

you were wrong.

B. About what?

A. When you said that there was no railway.

I intentionally listened to you and did not interrupt.

B. There

is

no railway;

there is a narrow-gauge track.

A. I am talking

about

the railway from Kaliningrad to Baltiysk.

B. There

absolutely no railway to Baltiysk, and there

is no railway on the spit.

A.. The railway was there before the war, during the war, and after the war;

It

was built by the Germans

the devil knows

when, and it exists to the

present day.

Stoned

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A. We cannot contradict the facts;

it was not even destroyed when the Germans

got out of there.

B.

There

15 ... I am telling you ... you can look at the map... to Kaliningrad.

You cannot get to Sovetsk from Moscow through Kaliningrad by railway, no.

You can go from Kaliningrad to Sovetsk on a local train, because there is

the narrow-gauge railway from Sovetsk to Zelenogradsk -- it is the former

German town of ((Grants?); this is a resort area in North Prussia.

A. We are talking about Baltiysk.

B. There was no road to Baltlysk, on the spit.

There was only a highway.

A.

There was, and it is there to the present time;

during the war and after the war.

it was there before the war,

B. Well, I travelled

... it is a narrow place.

A. I do not know how you travelled; if you did not go by train, it is

something else.

B. No, no, no.

A. Another question -- that there 1s a railroad; last time, you told me that

you remember very well that... when you arrived in Kaliningrad, there was

no railroad... you got there by hitch-hiking.

B.

There is no way you can get to Baltiysk by railroad.

A.

Perhaps you went by car, not by rail; but there 1s a railroad.

B. You go this way -- Moscow - Kaliningrad.

A. Railroads go in all directions from Kaliningrad, including to Baltiysk.

B. No.

Well, then it would have been most easy for me

to have transferred at the

station to go to Baltiyok.

SEGRET

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-7-

A. Well, let us go back.

You have tried to correct yourself ((by)) saying, "Sovetsk by the sea".

Let us

say

so -- it could be;

but, all the same, a person in the Army -- and,

especially, in intelligence -- they do not address letters to him in the way

you said; they address

them to the military unit (li.e., using the field

post office number)).

No... even ... for ... the Far East -- "Sovetskaya Gavan', Military Unit

such-and-such" ... although we were not in Sovetskaya Gavan'.

And, you know, why?

A. I do not know.

B. Because it takes the letters a few months to get there.

A. Why a few months?

B. Well, not a few months, but.

a long time, If one will write to the military

unit, as -- during WW II -- "Field Post Office No. such-and-such".

A. Do you know how the Army field postal system was organized?

B. I do not know.

A. If you do not know, then it is not necessary to say

"It will take a few months"!

B. Well, not a few months; it will take a long time.

And in the far Fast, they wrote, "City of Sovetskaya Gavan', Military Unit

such-and-such".

A. And did they also write which oblast or kray?

B. No, simply "City of Sovetskaya Gavan'".

A. There is only one city of Sovetskaya Gavan';

It is a large city.

Perhaps you are confused.

B. No, no.

Sovetsk, Primorskiy.. Primorskiy Primorskiy... in my memory, Sovetsk, Primorskly Kray -

although I understand very well that there

is no kray there

... well, I ...I

do not know.

SEGRET

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-8-

A. What would you say to "There is a Sovetsk by the sea (Sovetsk primorskiy),

in Leningrad Oblast"?

B. What?

A. There is a Sovetsk by the sea, in Leningrad Oblast.

B. No.

Well, what are you saying -- "In Leningrad Oblast"?!

This is the Fourth Navy Fleet.

A. Were you ever in the Sovetsk in Leningrad Oblast?

B. Never.

A. Are you sure of this?

B. I do not remember a Sovetsk in Leningrad

Oblast.

A. Do you remember & Primorsk in Leningrad Oblast?

B. No.

Leningrad Oblast?

No, no.

I know, in Leningrad Oblast... what kind of places?

Before the war ... Sestroretsk, Vartyshkino ... this is near Leningrad.

There is a Lisiy Nos ...

A. Lysyy or Lisiy?

B. Lisiy; Lisiy Nos ... a place heavily infested with mosquitoes.

A. Are you sure that you never were in a Sovetsk in Leningrad Oblast?

B. I never was.

A. In a Primorsk in Leningrad Oblast?

В. No, по, по, по.

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A. Very well;

we will return to this question in time.

This does not explain what you have been trying to explain to me.

There is no Sovetsk in the place you are talking

about.

And no one ever wrote "Sovetsk primorskiy".

B. With the indication that this is Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray, Primorskly Rayon

((or "Sovetsk of a coastal kray, or a coastal rayon" )).

A. There was no Primorskly Rayon in Kaliningrad Oblast, and Kaliningrad Oblast

was

not called Primorskly Kray ((or "a coastal kray")).

All of this, of course, forces me to think that your knowledge 1s too little

for one who has worked and served there.

B. I have told you how it was.

A. The last time, I told you to think about this question; I think you have

thought very well and now you are trying to insist upon this or to find

some sort of justification.

B. No; I am trying only to prove to you that I was there.

A. But this does not prove anything; and your words -- "I was, I was" --

as proof, do not say anything.

B. You understand -- I cannot give proof.

A. Well, let us go back a little.

If one is to believe what you said about the last date, the date of your

entry into the organs of

the MVD, in March 1953

....

•B. Yes.

A. Every officer knows exactly the date on which he

entered, because

it

is

necessary to know it in many cases; but - although you talk about your

poor memory -- could you recall the exact date

on which you were

accepted

for work?

Because this is of great and important significance for promotion, for rank,

for longevity, etc., etc.; every officer knows this.

I would like for you to recall it; you should know on what date you were

accepted.

SEG

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B. I do not remember.

In the middle of March.

A. Let us talk a little about the structure and organization of the MVD when

BERIYA was in power and

In the tine immediately after him;

name for me the

directorates that existed

at that time in the MVD.

B. ((Pause.)) The First Directorate, Second

Directorate

the First Chief ...

the Second Chief ....

A. Well, what did the First Chief Directorate do?

B. ((Pause.)) Intelligence.

A. The Second Chief Directorate?

B. Counterintelligence.

A. Let us pause on this -- are you sure?

B. About what?

A. That the First Chief Directorate was intelligence, and the Second Chief

Directorate, counterintelligence?

B. Sure.

There was one change between 1953 until January 1964 ((probably meant "1954")),

after BERIYA, when KRUGLOV was Minister of the MVD ... after BERIYA.

For a short period of time, the First Chief Directorate was called the Second,

and the Second was called the First.

This was the one change -- for a short time.

A. First of all, your information is not correct.

If the First was called the Second, and the Second, the First, why was this done?

B. I do not know why it was done.

A. It was announced to all employees, and it was explained why such & change

had taken place.

SEGRET

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B. I do not remember any such explanations.

Why?

I tell you -- for a short period of time, the Second Directorate

was the First,

and the First was the Second.

A. Well, that is right.

B. But this was not under BERIYA; it was under KRUGLOV.

A.

That Is not right.

This 1s another one of those confirmations that it is highly unlikely that

you worked with the MVD.

A man who has worked there knows exactly when the change was made.

You are mistaken by a mile (("Kilometer")):

B.

This was under KRUGLOV ..

There was something

A. What other directorates?

B. The Third Directorate.

A. What did the Third Directorate do?

B. Military counterintelligence.

Then, the Fourth Directorate

A. What did it do?

B. The intelligentsia.

A. Be more

precise -- the

one

word, "Intelligentsia", covers a lot of grouna.

B. Work among writers, artists ... all counterintelligence work ....

If we take counterintelligence work as

a whole ... work against foreigners ..

A..

No, no;

we

are talking about

the Fourth Directorate, nothing else.

B. The work among the Intelligentsia of all types, excluding, of course, ((those

1n)) Industry; work against nationalists (XG).

The Fourth Department -- why do I remember the Fourth?

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Because employee ZVEZDENKOV, of the First Department, when I came

on duty

in March 1953 ... he left and worked

' . . .

A. And the next directorate?

B. The Fifth Directorate.

What did it do?

B. Industry, all industry.

A. What else was the Fifth Directorate called?

B. It was the former EKU, EKU; and the Fourth was called

'SPU.

This was before my time.

A. The next directorate?

B.

The Sixth; transportation.

A. The next?

B. The Seventh.

A. What did it do?

B. Checking; Installations - the investigative apparatus, and surveillance of

Soviet citizens.

A. And the next directorate?

B. The Eighth.

A. What did It do?

B. Coding and decoding.

A. The next?

B. The Ninth; the Guards Directorate.

A. The next?

The Tenth;

the Kremlin Directorat',

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A. The next?

B. That is all of the directorates, except for the Special Departments r.. ob,

yes, the Investigations Department ...

A. What else?

B. The Special Departments.

A. What Special Departments do you know?

B. The First Special Department.

A. What did it do?

B. The First Special Department - I think it is what is now called the Records-

Archives Department - (Vehetno-arkhionyy otdol) -- VAO.

A. The Records-Archives Department?

B. At present.

A. What did the First Special Department do before?

B. The same -- archives, records.

I am telling you as I remember

it.

I am afraid here ....

Maybe the First Special Department did something else;

I do not remember.

A. Next?

B. The Second Special Department.

A. What did it do?

B. This is audio intercept -- "Marusya", "Nadyusha".

A. The next?

B. The Third Special Department and the Fourth Special Department.

The Third, I know, is where the documents were made -- cover documents.

SEGRET

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The Fifth, I do not remember.

The Sixth Special Department -- perlustration of

correspondence.

A. Well, what other departments?

B.

The Komesdant Department.

Oh, yes, the Administrative-Supply Department, KhozU; the Medical Department

was part of it.

A. What other departments and directorates?

B. The Komesdant

... yes ....

Yes, the department - I will tell you now... what was it called?

Department "K" -- this department handled counterintelligence in atomic

industry and at all enterprises connected with uranium mining.

A. What other departments?

B. ((Pause.)) That is all; I do not remember more.

A. We are talking about the time when the MVD already had been organized, after

STALIN's death.

B. Yes, yes, yes.

A. Well, let us repeat -- what did the First Special Department do?

B. I think... I do not insist... to my thinking, that was "Records", because

now it is called the Records-Archives Department.

A. What was the First Special Department called under the MGB, before the

death

of STALIN?

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

Department "A"?

No... I do not remember.

Look; why do I say Department "A"?

Because -- look; you fill out requests for checks or agents, and there were

old requests, where it was written, "Department 'A'", with a red stripe across

SEG

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A.

And the Second Special Department -- what

was it called?

B. That is what it was called -- the Second

Special Department.

A. Well, in the MGB.

B. I do not know this;

I do not know.

A. The Third?

B. I do not know;

A .

The Fourth?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A.

The Fifth?

B. I also do not know.

A. The Sixth?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Well, what other directorates were there?

B. There were no other directorates.

A. And to what did GULAG belong at that time?

B. (?I understand you?)

The Convoy Troops (Konvoynyye Voyska); but when I came in there was none.

GULAG -- Chief Directorate

of Camps.

I do not know.

There was none.

I do not know.

A. And what happened to the Border Troops?

B. Ah ... That is right -- the Border Troops!

exactly!

For a period of time, they were in the MVD.

A. We are talking

now of that period, and it is not important where they were.

.B.

Both of them ... Chief Directorate

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A. The Border Troops?

B. Right..

A.

What happened to the Internal Iroops?

B. ((Iong pause.)) I have not heard about them since 1953.

A. Well, where were they in 1953?

B. Well, they were

in the MGB system, but I do not know where.

A. What - you have not heard about then since 19537

They and their decorations were written up

in the newspapers.

B. Well, I do not know.

When I was working, there were none of these ....

A. How is it you do not know?

They exist even now.

They write about them openly in the newspapers.

B. Not in the KGB, not in the KGB.

I do not know... in the MVD, but not in the KGB.

A. Well, where were they in 1953?

What happened to them?

B. I do not insist upon this, but I think, I think that GUlAG and the Convoy Troops

were given over to the MVD

after the MGB -- to my thinking, but I am not sure.

A. But we are talking about 1953;

everything in the MVD was lumped together.

There

was no place to which to transfer them there was no KGB as yet.

B. I do not know, I do not know; I do not

remember; I do not know.

A. What happened to the Prisons Directorate (Iyuremnoye Upravleniye), where your

friend, Amayak ((KOBULOV)), was Chief?

SECHE

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B. ((Pause.)) I do not know.

There was no Prisons Directorate during my time.

((Pause.)) You see how you are talking... "When Amayak was Chief" --

well, when was this?

If Amayak in January 1953, also was working in GUSIMZ?

It means it was in 1950

...maybe in 1949, 1948, 1945, 1946.

A. For your information, Amayak was Chief of the Prisons Directorate up to the

time BERIYA was arrested.

If you worked there, you must know.

B. I know that he was arrested ... Amayak.

A.

Everyone knows that he was the Chief of the Prisons Directorate.

Every dog knows that; there was no secret about it.

B. I do not know.

A. And it is nonsense that he last worked in GUSIM.

B. My friend?

I saw him only once.

A. You tried to prove ....

B. No, I was not proving... I simply was saying that I had seen him.

A. Well, do you remember any other directorates?

B.

I do not know.

A. What happened to GUSHOSDOR?

Do you know what GUSHOSDOR is?

B. I have heard

of GUSHOSDOR, but it was not there in my tiem.

A. If it was not there in your time, where is it now?

B. ((Long pause.)) I do not know, I do not know.

In the system of ... I know that in the Militia system... right now ....

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A. We w1ll talk about the Militia as the next question.

Where was the Militia when you started working in the MVD?

B. (?It was combined?) it was in the MVD.

The MGB was combined.

A. Where was the Militia?

B.

In the MVD.

A. Where was the Chief Directorate of Militia located at that time?

B. ((Long pause.)) I do not know exactly; I do not know, I do not know.

I only know that there is a huge building on the street where the telegraph

office is.

A. Well, everyone knows that - it is in the telephone directory; I am asking

where it was in 1953.

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. ((Pause.)) Well, you worked there.

When did the Militia move to Ogarev Street?

B. It was there, on Ogarev, in 1953.

A. For your information; no.

Do you remember any other directorates there?

B. No.

A. Must. I always remind you?

B. I do not know; I told you what I know.

A. This again, shows that your knowledge is too scanty.

B. I cannot help you here; I am telling you what I know.

((Pause.)) There is only one thing I have not yet mentioned: in 1953, there

was -- during BERIYA's time -- there was the Inspectorate (Inspektsiya).

Well, we will write "Inspectiorate" -- there was such a thing.

B. Yes, yes; headed by RAYKHMAN.

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A. What happened to RAYKHMAN?

B. He was arrested.

A. Is he alive, or was he executed?

B. Well, he is alive, alive.

A. What else was there?

B. I do not know any more.

A. What happened to the Directorate of the Safekeeping of

State Treasures;

what number was it, and what did it do?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Was there a Secretariat?

under

B. Yes, there was the Secretariat.

A. Who was the Chief of the Secretariat?

B. I do not know.

A. During BERIYA's time?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Before BERIYA?

B. I also do not know.

A. After BERIYA?

B. ((Pause.) ) I know only DOBROKHOTOV.

What year was it - 1955, 1954?

There was DOBROKHOTOV.

A. Was there also a Party Committee?

B. This

is not

a directorate.

1. But this also is in the MVD;

right?

SEC

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B.

No, no; I do not remember.

If you will let me, I will begin from this end, from the most recent years.

Approximately from 1962 -- VLASENKO.

From 1959 to 1962 -- MARFUNIN.

There were two men before MARFUNIN, I know:

SERGEYEV, YARISEV.

That is all.

In what years they were there, I do not know.

There were two men before 1959 -- YARISEV

and SERGEYEV.

In 1959 -- MARFUNIN, and In 1962 -- VIASENKO.

A. MARFUNIN?

B. MARFUNIN; he formerly was the Deputy Chief of the Fourth Directorate.

A. But was there a Komsomol Committee?

B. There was a Komsomol Committee.

A. Who were the Secretaries?

B. I do not remember, I do not know.

A. What other directorates were there?

B. I do not know.

A. Who was Chief of the First Chief Directorate when you entered?

B. I do not know, I do not know; I do not remember.

A. Well, whom do you remember to have been a Chief of the First Chief Directorate?

B. SAKHAROVSKIY, when he became ((Chief)).

A. And when did he become Chief?

B. I do not know, I do not know; I have no idea (XG);

he was not in in 1953, but

who was,

I do not know.

A. Who was his Deputy at that time when he was Chief?

SECHER

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B. ((Long pause.)) I remember one name for those years; It must have been

KOROTKOV ....

FEDOSEYEV was a Deputy, until the arrest of BERIYA.

A. For your information ....

You know exactly that SAKHAROVSKIY was not Chief at that time.

B. I tell you that I do not remember when he was; I do not know.

I told you that I do not know who was the Chief of the First Directorate In 1953.

A. Neither FEDOSEYEV nor KOROIKOV were Deputies at that time.

B. FEDOSEYEV -- before the arrest of BERIYA -- was the Deputy Chief of the First

Directorate.

A. He was not - he was there, but he was not the Deputy.

Further, who was the Chief of the Second Chief Directorate?

B. FEDOTOV.

A. Who was his Deputy?

B. SHUBNYAKOV, GRIBANOV, LYALIN.

A. The Chief of the Third Directorate?

B. I do not remember.

I remember, from GUSKOV's time;

GUSKOV became... when?

Later, later; who the chief was,

I do not know, I do not remember.

A. The Fourth Directorate?

B. I also do not know who was the Chief;

I do not know.

A. The Fifth Directorate?

B. I also do not know.

A. The Sixth Directorate.

B. I know that MIL'SHTEYN was Chief of the Sixth before

the

arrest of BERIYA.

A. A real Russian name!

SECRET

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B. He is a Jew.

A.

The Seventh Directorate?

B. Around 1954, it was DOBRYNIN, DOBRYNIN.

A. Well, who was, when you came to work?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

When I came to work ....

Please understand me ....

How could I be interested at that time?

I was a new employee; I was introduced

to new work ....

..I could not figure It out.

A. Well, if you had been there only one year, I would not ask;

but because you

insist you worked there for 11 years …...

You do not have to study these things - it comes by Itself; you look through

documents, and even if you do not know you nevertheless would find out.

B. You worked there, and you know how many changes took place there.

A. Who was the Chief of the Eighth Directorate?

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A. The Ninth?

B. After BERTYA's death, USTINOV.

A. After BERIYA's death or his arrest?

B. After the arrest, after BERIYA's arrest -- USTINOV.

A. The Tenth?

B. Kremlin Commandant It. Gen. VEDENIN.

A. When did he become ((Chief))?

B. I do not know.

A. Are you sure it was the Tenth Directorate?

SEGRET

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B. It seems, the Tenth.

Later, not too long ago... a few years, it came under the Ninth Directorate --

this Komendant Directorate.

A. It was never the Tenth.

B. The Tenth; it was the Tenth; maybe, of course, somewhat later than 1953,

but I remember this directorate.

A. Who was Chief of Investigations?

B. I do not remember;

I do not know.

A. Who was Chief of the First Special Department?

B. I do not know.

A. Of the Second?

B. Before BERIYA's arrest, KARASEV.

A. Then?

B. Then, ZABOLOTNYY.

A. Then?

B. And most recently, ZAKHIARCHENKO

A. Of the Third?

B. At one time, it was

It Gen BEL'CHENKO.

A. In 1953?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Of the Fourth?

B. I do not know.

A. The Fifth?

B. I do not knöw.

A. The Sixth?

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B. From the end of 1953, SHCHIKOCHIKHIN; from the end of 1953.

A. And when you came in?

B. I do not remember, I do not know.

Most recently, SHCHIKOCHIKHIN.

A. Where did he come from?

B. He was in the Second Chief Directorate in 1953 -- Secretary of the Party

organization.

A. Who was head of the Secretariat?

B. I do not remember,

I do

not know.

A. You said RAYKHMAN was Chief of the Inspectorate:

B. RAYKHMAN.

A. Who was Chief of KhozU?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. Chief of the Komandant Department?

B. I think it was always BROVKIN, COl BROVKIN.

A. Department "K"?

B. It was General ... it was Colonel IVANOV, IVANOV.

Later, he became a major general.

A. Who was Chief of GULAG?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Who was Chief of the Border Iroops?

B. MASLENNIKOV.

A. What happened to MASLENNIKOV?

B. He shot himself.

A. And then who became Chief?

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B. I cannot say for sure, but after MASLENNIKOV, it was ZYRYANOV.

A. Who was the Chief of the Internal Troops?

B. I do not know.

A. The Chief of the Prisons Directorate?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. GUSHOSDOR?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Who was the Chief of the Militia?

B. I do not know, I do not remember.

A. You still cannot say who was the Chief of

the Secretariat?

В. No, no.

A. When did DOBROKHOTOV become ((Chief))?

B. I think, in 1954, at the beginning of 1955.

A. Where did he come from?

B. From the CC ( ( CC CPSU)).

A. Did he come directly from the CC?

B. I heard that he had worked in the CC.

A. Well, when did he work there?

B. Before coming to the organs ((of State Security)).

A. Of course, he was working before the organs.

But if he came to be head of the Secretariat in 1954 or 1955, where was be

before that?

B. In the CC.

SEGRET

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A. Well, that is not correct.

((Pause.)) You have named the Secretary of the Party Committee for me.

Do you not remember the Secretary of the Komsomol Committee?

B. I do not remember.

A. Who was chief of the Medical Department?

B. Maj Gen Med Serv NOVIKOV, NOVIKOV.

A. Then?

B. I think, then and up to now, KHITROVO, KHITROVO.

A. Who was chief of the Transportation Directorate, Department?

B. Up to the arrest of BERIYA It was MIL'SHTEYN.

A. I am talking about the Transportation Department of the Khozu.

B. Oh, I do not know this; I do not know, I do not know.

A. Into what departments was KhozU divided?

B. I do not know, I do not know; I cannot... I know the Finance Department,

the Medical Department ....

I do not know.

A. Who was Chief of the Judicial Bureau under the Minister at that time?

B. I do not know.

A. Did you ever hear of it?

B. I do not remember.

A. Think of some other department.

((Pause.)) Who was Chief of the Special Court (Osoboye Soveshchaniye)?

B. I do not know.

A. What did they do with Special Bureau No. 1 (("Spetsbyuro" -- Executive Action))

in 1953?

SECRET

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B. I do not know what the "Special Bureau" is.

A. Did you never hear

of it?

5. Special Bureau No. 1?

No, I do not know it.

A.

What happened to the Search (Rozyakhore) Directorate?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. Perhaps you can remember some

other departments and directorates.

B. No, I told you what I know.

A. Well, if we are to believe you, the first Special Department handled

archives, etc.; where was it located?

B. I used to have to go to the First Special Department, on Kirov Street ... for

a check.

This check is - so to say, not for an agent, but a check of the records.

A. What kind

of record?

B. If there are any files or compromising materials on someone or other.

And it still is on Kirov Street.

A. Where on Kirov Street?

B. At the very beginning of Kirov Street, if you go from Dzherzhinskiy Square

on Kirov Street, on the left side of the street

on which Building No. 2 1s.

A. Well, please tell me, if you know - where was

the First

#pecial Department

located?

Give me an answer; if you do not know, say

SO.

B. I told you what I know.

A. It is not entirely right.

B. How -- not entirely right?

SECRET

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This is where the checks were made

on everyone.

On Kirov Street, through the First Special Department.

On the agent, in Building No. 2, downstairs;

room 101, in the basement.

Now, the exit files were at Entrance No. 2, Building 12 ....

A.

A case is being examined; well, let us say you have a man

B. Yes.

A. ... Whom you are supposed to check on whether there are any compromising

materials on him - he was born in Moscow; he lived In the Soviet Union;

he went abroad several times on business, and he is not a KGB employee,

but an ordinary Soviet government employee.

Where would you check him out?

You have to find out all the compromising materials on him.

B. Well, on Kirov Street, you request a check.

A. Well, I say -- he was born in the Soviet Union, in Moscow; he went abroad.

several times; he 1s a loyal Soviet citizen.

For some reason, you have to check ....

B. All of the checks and indices in the Archives were made on Kirov Street,

with the exception of those on the agents, having a red band, which were

checked in the basement of Building No. 2.

A. And where else could a check be made?

B. In the Militia.

A. Why in the Militia?

For what?

B. I do not know.

111 Made d man dad been serined.

44h, Whad a delue Aelilies ill All the convicts Located?

SECRET

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A. Well; how could you work, to check people, if you did not know where the

Archives on the convicts were?

B. I do not know.

I will tell you only that, until 1953, when I came in, there were so many

checks, different checks, that -- God knows.

From 1953, until most recently I wrote out only one check.

Well, later... well... to check through the First Special Department of

the MVD and the UAO of the KGB.

That is all; that is the only check.

On one sheet, if you want to, you can write out two at one time; one to the

First Special Department and to the UAO.

And the second check, on agents.

Earlier, there had been many checks, different checks; many.

Because when you look through the old files on agents - God knows what kind

of checks there were ....

A. Please -- let us not make things up; what you are saying was so, up to

1947; this is not the way it was in 1953, for your information.

You worked there for ll years; you handled checks, particularly, in the

early days; earlier, you said that you were doing only checks, and so forth.

I gave you the example of a man, a Moscow resident, who was born in Moscow

and who went abroad several times, sent by the Soviet government; it is not

important to which countries -- the United States, England, or Austria, Germany,

Sweden;

anywhere -- and you had to check him, check him out.

B. I wrote out

a check, one copy, to the First Special Department, and to

the

Records-Archives Department;

this is one check, one sheet.

The

second ((kind of check)) is in the agent network.

You yourself do not carry

this check; you give it to the secretary, and for

the

agents ....

A. The second, for the

agents;

well, further?

B.

That is all.

You can make a check like this, also -- we

checked in another way; we called

the Seventh Directorate

KUDEYSV Or DEYEV ... they had a big card file.

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Well, you can phone the Address Bureau, if you do not know the address,

but know the surname, first name and patronymic and the year of birth ....

A.

Well, I do not want to

go into such detail.

Let us say that you know the address, you know the day of birth.

B. Then I write out the check.

A. I cannot understand in any way -- do you not want to say, or do you Indeed

not know the simplest things; you cannot even check the most simple person

alive.

B. I told you how I did it.

A. It just cannot be the way you told me, and it never was, there is an

entirely different procedure.

The one thing you said was about the First Special Department, and you mixed

up even that.

The way you explained it, a man who does not know about it would not under

stand a thing ....

((Pause.)) I will give you another problem -- to check Mr. SMITH who works

in the American Embassy; he received a visa and arrived to take up the

permanent position of first, Second, or Third Secretary or whatever you wish.

Now, check him out.

B. I write out a check to the UAO -- that is one; and I write out a second,

because perhaps he had been in the Soviet Union earlier and had worked here;

and the second, I write to the PGU ((Pervoye Glavnoye Upravlaniye, the First

Chief Directorate)).

A. Well, what 1s in the PGU?

B. It is called the Operational Records Department; the First Chief Directorate

has its own archives.

A. Well, what do you get from there?

B. Perhaps there is some data on him in the Archives, In the records of the

First Chief Directorate.

SEGRET

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A. What kind of data is there?

B. Well, perhaps he was put under surveillance somewhere, or maybe his name

is in some files.

A. Well, in 1953, you were working on checking; you worked with the files

most of the time, etc.; where were the Archives of the PGU at that time --

let us say in 1953, 1954?

B.

I cannot say for sure -- in 1953 the Archives were near the Exhibition;

they had a building there near the Exhibition.

Later -- I cannot aay which year for sure:

in 1955

... they were at

Kisel'nyy Street (pereulok); and, most recently, on Kisel'ayy Street in

the same building as the Higher School.

A. Well, who was the chief of this department?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

From what time, I do not know -- the chief was ZAYTSEV.

A. Continue further, you checked him in the First Special Department and the

PGU; what next?

B. That is the entire check.

A. Please -- I do not want to give you a lecture about checking;

if you know,

tell me.

If you do not know, do not say anything.

B. I told you what I know.

Well, alright - you ask me, and I answer what I know.

A. We will go back a little -- when BERIYA took over the Ministry of Internal

Affairs and the MGB and the KGB were combined, what were the First and

Second Chief Directorates?

B. I do not know what they were.

There was and existed, before the First Chief Directorate, the Cormittee for

Information; I know that FEDOIOV was Chief of the Conmittee for Information.

A. Well, he never was Chief.

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B. Well, he worked in the Committee for Information.

A. There

is

difference.

B.

He worked

in the Committee for Information, but in what position...?

A. You do not know exactly what the First and Second Chief Directorates were

before the death of STALIN?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. You do not have any idea; have you never heard ...

B. I know there was a Second Directorate, but, before the death of STALIN,

in 1950, 1951, 1952, it had departments:

2-z, 2-1, 2-Zh, 2-4, 2-B, 2-Ye,

2-G

I have heard that.

A. Later, I would like to - I want to asks you about this, later ... I want to

know from where you know this.

If you know about this, then you must know about what I am asking you --

what were the First and Second Chief Directorates before the death of STALIN?

Well, BERIYA took power.

If you know about 2-I, 2-2, etc. ....

B. No, I simply heard that there were such departments -- 2-z ....

A. I am talking about what was just before the death of STALIN.

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. I can say that it is impossible for me to believe that you worked for the

MVD in 1953, 1954, because you cannot explain to me the simplest things

which one ran into every day.

B. I told you what I know, and how I knew it.

Of course, if you take a man -- for example, me - who worked there in 1953,

1954, or one who already had worked there for ten years and who had experienced

all of the reorganizations, etc.

SECRET

A. Well, you worked there for 10-11 years, also.

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B. What?

A. You also worked there for 10-11 years.

B. Well, since 1953.

A. Well, I am asking about 1953.

B.

I told you what I remember, what I know.

A. But, when I ask you some questions, I do not delve so deeply as you shoula

know if you were a case officer in the Anerican Department.

One could put a thousand questions, and I am simply touching the high spots.

B. I am replying just the way I remember.

A. Well, what you have said - although there is

a percentage of truth in it --

does not confirm that you were a real employee who was working there.

(Pause; A signals the guards and asks B: )) Do you want coffee or

something else?

B. Thank you.

A. Do you drink it black?

B. Black.

A. Of course, if we are going to continue like this, it will take us a very long

time.

I do not think that you will be very happy, If I begin to ask every question

In detail; and, you answer "I do not know" or "I do not remember"

, of course,

this will confirm the more that you were not there.

I want all the talk to lead to the following, when I remind you to think over

one question or another - I seriously want you yourself to come to some

conclusion and begin to speak about the way it really was.

B. How strangely you put it!

A. I am not putting it strangely.

I am a very patient and calm person in this respect and, of course, when a

person does not know what he is talking about or knows only the superficialities -

not as a former employee should know I do not have any particular desire to

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delve deeper into these questions, because your answers do not

give proof,

since you do not know the ABC's.

Even if you did not work there, ((you should know that)) then all of the

employees of the First and Second Chief Directorates - of course, after

STALIN died -- were happy with what had been done at that time with the

First and Second Chief Directorates -- you understand: this is a question

that everyone knows

about.

B.

I do not know this.

A. After that, there was discussion of it for an entire year, for a whole year.

Now, what

... what happened?

B. I do not know.

A. You mentioned once that IGNAT'YEV had been Minister ....

B. Yes, yes.

A. Well, let us begin with IGNAT'YEV -- who were his deputies?

B. Well, I was not working then;

I do not know who were his deputies ....

A. Well, then, listen -- you worked there 1l years after IGNAT'YEV.

He left, and BERIYA came in, and you began to work.

B. Yes.

A. Of course, you read the papers - there were orders, instructions, discussions;

this man was imprisoned, that man was fired, and so on and so on.

B. I am telling you absolutely honestly what I remember and how I remember it.

Maybe if ... maybe I could remember something else, something more ... but I

do not know now what more to tell you.

((Guard brings coffee.))

A. You know that after BERIYA took power, as usual, meetings were held in each

directorate, department, and they criticized IGNAT'YEV and his Deputies, etc.;

they were called all kinds of names.

SECRET

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These are things that you should know; this was logical, and It was so.

You cannot even tell about these simple things - what it was, and what kind

of explanation was given.

I am not asking you why they removed IGNAT'YEV; this was not, so to say,

our

or your business.

B. Well, I heard -- there was RYUMIN, GOGLIDZE; but I do not know, I do not know.

A. Did they also execute GOGLIDZE?

B. Yes.

A. Did they also shoot RYUMIN?

B. He was arrested, not with BERIYA's group -- he was arrested before.

A. They shot him, also?

B. Yes.

A. Well, who else?

GOGLIDZE never was Deputy Minister.

B. He was in the Third Directorate.

I heard there was such a person -- ISANAVA; he was a Minister of the MGB in

Belorussia; at one time he had worked in Moscow.

Whether he was there in IGNAT'YEV's time, I do not know.

But the most powerful man, of course, was It Gen VIASIK.

A. Why VLASIK?

B. The Guards Directorate.

A. Why VIASIK, here?

B. Why?

Well, you are asking me; I am answering, telling you what names I heard.

A. We are talking about IGNAI'YEV and his deputies; VLASIK never was a Deputy.

B. He was not a Deputy, but he was Chief of the Guards (Okhrana).

A. What did they

do with him?

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B. ((No answer.))

A. ISANAVA, what happened to him?

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. What happened to VLASIK?

B. He was removed right after the death of STALIN.

A. Please, if you do not know, do not make up

something.

B. I am telling you what I heard.

A. Well, who else?

B. ((Long pause.) ) No answer.

A. Did you ever hear of the GRU MGB?

B. Yes, in the old files, there is "GRU MGB".

A. What does that mean?

B. Most likely it was what you have in mind -- the First and Second Directorates

work against foreigners.

A. Who was the chief of the GRU ((MGB))?

B. I do not know.

A. Can you not explain what the GRU is?

B. I do not know; it was before my time.

A. What -- you cannot explain to me?

This took place right at that time... why was the First Directorate called the

Second Directorate; and the Second, the First?

B. This was a very short period of time ....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A.

... Not correct; you are mistaken.

SECRE

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Inis is another confirmation that you were not working there at that time.

B. ((No reply.))

A. Let us begin with the following.

B. Yes.

A. BERIYA was arrested; all of his lieutenants were arrested.

Who became Minister?

B. KRUGLOV.

A. Are you sure of that?

B. KRUGLOV.

A. What happened to him?

B. Io KRUGLOV?

A. Yes.

B. Later?

He again went to the MVD ... then, he was removed as Minister;

and, later, I

heard that he was not working anywhere and even had been kicked out of the Party.

A. Well, why did they throw him out?

B. I do not know; I have no Idea.

A. Well, there was a special letter from the CC CPSU when KRUGLOV was relieved;

this letter was for the information of Communists and employees of the MVD

and the KGB; did you hear about it?

B. No; I do not remember this letter;

no.

A. When KRUGLOV was Minister, who were his Deputies?

B. I also do not know.

A. Well, it is very difficult to believe that you worked there, when you do not

remember the Deputies.

SECHET

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B. I do not remember.

A. Think about It.

B. ((Long pause.)) I think SEROV was a Deputy.

A. You could know more exactly: SEROV ... who else?

B. ((Long pause.)) I heard the name, ROMASHKOV.

A. What?

B. ROMASHKOV.

A. Who was ROMASHKOV?

B. He was a deputy to KRUGLOV.

A.

ROMASHKOV?

B. Yes.

A.

How long was he there?

B. Well, during KRUGLOV's time.

A. Well, how long was KRUGLOV Minister?

After BERIYA's arrest, how long was he Minister?

B. About a year.

A. Well, when was BERIYA arrested?

B. In June 1953, the 27th ... no, he ((was arrested)) on the 26th ....

1. ((In English)) OK; well, the 26th, 27th.

KRUGLOV became the Minister.

For how long?

B.

To the end of 1954, when SEROV became Chairman of the Committee ((for Btate

Security)).

A. Well, when was the Committee organized?

B. At the end of 1954, at the end of 1954, or at the beginning

of 1955.

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A. I cannot accept

as valid coin... you must know these simple things, such

as when the KGB was organized.

B. I do not remember.

I am telling you the way I remember it.

Now really, would I hide something from you or make some

....?

Io make such a mistake - by an entire year - is stupid; right?

I am not asking when the Fifth Section of the Seventh Department in the

Seventh Directorate was organized: I do not ask a question like that.

B. I do not know that at all.,

A. You worked there, and yet you say that you do not remember when KGB was

organized?....

B. ... In 1954, at the end of 1954, the beginning of 1955 ....

A. ... Io make mistake of a whole year ... this ((1955)) 18 not correct, you know.

Well, who else was Deputy to KRUGLOV?

B. I do not remember.

If you asked me who was in the First Department, that would be another matter;

that is something I know very well, because I ran into these people, and ....

A. One also should know the names of the chiefs; right?

B. Of the chiefs, I knew ... who there?

FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich, ((and)) SHUBNYAKOV.

A. Oh, FEDOIOV, Petr Vasil'yevich... poor old man;

no doubt he

is turning over

in his grave.

B.

Do you know he is dead?

1. Well, between us, what do you know that is unusual, which all of the employees

knew about FEDOTOV?

B. Petr Vasil'yevich?

A. Yes; something that was unusual.

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B. Well, what unusual thing do I know about FEDOTOV?

I know that MOLOTOV thought well of him; apparently, this was

A. This is not unusual.

B.

Something unusual;

he was married more than once - he was married

to a

young blonde; I never saw her.

He has two grown children -- a daughter and a son - but this is not unusual.

A. Many people, high officials, divorced their wives and married

others, and so

forth; in Soviet society, this is not news.

At the same time here ((in the USSR)), particularly when there are 20 million

women more, it is easy to choose.

Well, what others ((Deputies) ) were there?

You should know.

Some people you cannot avoid.

Well, BERIYA was arrested; KRUGLOV became Minister; you named, as his

Deputies, SEROV, ROMASHKOV; who else was there?

B. I do not remember; honestly, I do not remember.

A. How many Armenians were fired after the arrest of KOBULOW?

B. I do not know how many; but, in 1953, when I had

just come in, there were

some people fired -- they were firing people.

In the First Department, so many women were working, all of the women were fired.

Then, there were all kinds of AYVOZOVs ((typical Armenian name)), and so on,

and so on; none of them were left.

Jews were fired.

A. Well, in 1953, there already were no Jews;

if there were, they were only those

Whom BERIYA took in.

B. No, there were

still Jews around; they were in the Second Directorate.

A. Well, anyway, who else was a Deputy Minister?

B. I do not remember.

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A. Well, It is interesting for me to know what force is preventing you from

talking about what really was there.

B. Well, I am telling you what was really there, what I remember.

Well, maybe. I can remember some other things, but they do not come to mind,

they do not come to mind.

You see -- perhaps I have such a strange memory.

I can tell so many things

about what they talk about at the top, what I heard

about so many people; but, right now, I cannot.

If we take the newspapers for those years

... about such-and-such, about

so-and-so ... you understand.

A. I think you see... I am asking you... not all of this was written in the

newspapers.

B. Well, uh

... yes

... no... You see a name in a newspaper, and right away

you can ....

A. The names of KRUGLOV and SEROV are known to thw whole world.

Of course, in intelligence circles FEDOTOV is known very well;

he means nothing.

to others,

B. Absolutely.

((Pause.)) Well, just as the question was

- "Well, had you heard, before you

worked for the MVD, did you hear the name

... let us say ... GRIBANOV?"

I never heard it.

"FEDOTOV?"

I never knew about him and never heard of him.

A. I believe that.

If you did not work there, it could be that you never heard of him.

But, if ... you were their agent, you might have heard of him.

Who knows?

It happens that way.

((Pause.)) Well, who else was there?

KRUGLOV, SEROV, ROMASHKOV; who else?

B. I do not remember.

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A. Well, today we began to speak of the Internal Troops.

To whom are the Internal Troops now subordinate?

You were there not too long ago.

B.

No; they are not in the KGB.

A.

Where are they, if not ((in the KGB)).

B. I do not know if they exist now, if they exist now.

A. Every employee, of the Second Chief Directorate

B.

No, not Convoy ((Iroops)), but Internal, Internal ... most likely, they are

in the MVD.

A. There is no MVD.

B. MOOP -- Ministry for Preservation of Public Order.

A. Well, and the Convoy Troops?

B. Also in the MVD, because all the camps are there, in the MVD.

There are only two prisons in the KGB.

A. Well, when BERIYA took power, to whom did the camps belong?

B. I do not know these details, I do not know.

Of course, they belong to the MVD.

A. An employee who worked in the Second Chief Directorate must know this.

And if I ask, you the question, and you even have not heard or do not know of

the Directorate for the

Protection of State Ireasures, which also works very

closely with the

Second Chief Directorate

. . .

If you know Department "K", then you must know this -- you cannot get around it.

((Long pause.)) Well, think about it again.

KRUGLOV

was Minister;

SEROV, a Deputy; ROMASHKOV, a Deputy;

who else?

I do not remember.

B. I do not know;

1. Well, very well; KRUGIOV became Minister;

Chief Directorate at that time?

who was the Chief of the First

SEERS

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B. I do not know.

A. Of the Second Chief Directorate?

B. FEDOTOV.

A. Of the Third?

B. I do not remember.

A. Of the Fourth?

B. I also do not remember.

A. Of the Fifth?

B. I also do not remember.

A.

Of the Sixth?

B. The Sixth -- YEGOROV; YEGOROV was there until the

end, up to 1959 -- YEGOROV.

A. We have in mind Transportation?

B. Yes, yes, yes;

A. ((In English.))

Of the Seventh?

YEGOROV.

OK.

B. DOBRYNIN.

A. Of the Eighth?

B. I do not know.

A. Of the Ninth?

A general was; then, since 1955, 1956; LYALIN was.

B.

USTINOV.

A. Where did he come from?

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B.

From the Party; he was a Party worker.

After BERIYA's arrest, they put him in the Guards;

later, he again

was taken

to do Party work, and then they sent him to be an Ambassador to one of the

people's democratic countries.

A. Well, further -- who was Chief of KhozU?

B. I do not remember.

A. Of Investigations?

B. I do not remember.

A. Of the Inspectorate?

B. It ceased to exist after the arrest of BERIYA.

A. The Border Troops?

B. MASLENNIKOV; after MASLENNIKOV, ZYRYANOV.

A. The Internal Troops?

B. I do not know.

A. The Militia?

B. There were many in the Militia -- ABRAMOV, IOSIFOV, many.

A. Well, many, many;

who was Chief of Militia when KRUGLOV was Minister?

B. I do not remember.

I know that, in the Militia, ABRAMOV, IOSIFOV, and

STAKHANOV were working.

A. What have we left out so far?

Who was Chief of the Kommendant Department?

B. I only remember BROVKIN.

A. Who was Chief of Department "K"?

B. IVANOV.

He was, until the end, when the department was

combined.

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A. And GULAG?

B. There already was no GULAG.

A. Well, it was there;

it did not disappear.

B. If it was there, then it was in the MVD; I do not know.

A. Well, at that time, there was only one Ministry.

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A. The Prisons Directorate?

B. I do not know.

A. The First Special Department?

B. I do not know.

A. The Second?

B. ZABOLOTNYY became ((Chief)).

A. The Third?

B.

There was BEL'CHENKO.

A. The Fourth?

B. I do not know.

A. The Fifth?

B. I do not know.

The Sixth -- SHCHIKOCHIKHIN.

A. The Chief of the Secretariat?

B. After KRUGLOV, DOBROKHOTOV.

A. Well, under KRUGLOV?

B. I do not know.

A. The Judicial Bureau?

B. I do not know.

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A.

The Special Court?

B. There was none.

A. Why not?

B. There was,

at one time....

A. Well, what else was there under KRUGLOV?

((Long pause;

no reply.)) You understand yourself how little you know, for

one to believe that you worked there.

B. ... For a case officer who had just come to work there, who had just begun ....

A. He would come across all the names;

he writes papers, works with files, meets

agents; he reports to the chiefs, attends operational, Komsomol and Party '

meetings and conferences;

every day, he goes to work in Building No. 2,

No. 12, and others; he must know something.

But your knowledge Is not that of a case officer, but of a man who simply

dropped in there and came out.

((Long pause; no reply.)) I would like to find the explanation for this

problem.

Who held the meeting in the Second Chief Directorate after the arrest of

BERIYA, when they explained why he had been arrested?

B. I do not remember.

I do not remember that such a meeting was held for the whole directorate.

A. Can you give me a version which you heard or know

of how BERIYA was arrested?

B. Yes, what I know.

A. I said "version" because there were

so many runors, and there still are.

B. BERIYA was arrested

at

a meeting of the Presidium CC, formerly the Politbyuro.

It was

entirely unexpected

for him.

The meeting was on a Friday, and he

was arrested by the military.

Marshal KONEV took part; I do not know who

else.

(XG) I heard ... I only heard that KHRUSHCHEV, BULGANIN and others

were afraid

to talk about BERIYA in their offices, fearing "bugs" (tekhnika).

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A. Probably they were right.

B. And I also heard that "bugs" were set up

in BERIYA's place by Army men,

Army specialists, not from the Second special Department, of

course.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

But I do not know where -- in his office or somewhere else -- but the "bugs"

were used.

On the same night -- it already was in the evening on Friday -- the KOBULOVs,

DEKANOZOV, GOGLIDZE and others were arrested.

A. Have you heard the name, MAMULOV?

B. Yes, yes.

He was also a Deputy; he worked in the MGB.

He was from Georgia ((the Georgion SSR)), BERIYA's man.

A. Where was he at that time?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. And what wad DEKANOZOV doing at that time?

B. DEKANOZOV was working in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

A. Are you sure?

B. No, I am not sure; I know that he worked, but

. ..

A. Well, he was working ....

Under BERIYA, he did not work there;

he did something else.

B. I cannot say exactly.

And DEKANOZOV -- they even arrested him -- he flew in, and they arrested him

right at the airport; well, I heard such details.

From where did he fly, from Georgia, or? ... I do not know.

A. Well, if you know, tell me.

B. I am telling you that DEKANOZOV was arrested right at the airport, as he

came off the plane.

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A.

Do you know who, from the Second Chief Directorate

.. do you remember when

there was

an uprising in East Germany?

B. 1956.

A.

No.

B. Oh ... you have Germany in mind;

In 1956, it was In Hungary, Poland.

it was earlier, earlier.

A.

Very well, I will tell you - it was in 1953, on 17 June.

B. So.

A. Who, from the Second Chief Directorate, went to Berlin at that time?

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A. Well, I do not insist on this question, if you do not know, you do not know.

B.

No one went from the First Department.

A. If you worked there, you would know exactly.

B. I know exactly that no one went from First Department.

A. Well, we have to go further -- KRUGLOV, SEROV, ROMASHKOV ....

B. There is an interesting detail about ROMASHKOV.

He later -- this was in 1957 ...no, In 1958... - he was ... he worked at

one time in the CC; he is a CC worker.

But, he worked in the CC at one time; then again, in the organs;

the CC; then, in the organs, all his life.

again, in

And, in the latter period, he worked in the MVD, in the MVD.

He made appearances on television.

It seems he was some kind of Deputy Minister;

maybe, of the MVD.

This is not a rumor; it is a fact.

And someone saw him, someone whom he had interrogated and who had been convicted,

although not guilty; and he ((this person)) sent a letter to

some big man in the

CC, and this. letter served to have ROMASHKOV fired.

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No one could help ROMASHKOV; no one could save him.

I have in mind Minister of the MVD TIKUNOV, who was there in 1960.

They could not help him in any way, and he was removed from all his posts.

Who else was there?

I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. And what happened to STAKHANOV?

B. He was Minister of Internal Affairs, after KRUGLOV.

Then - as you know

-- the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the

USSR was

abolished, and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the RSFSR remained.

A. Yes.

B. STAKHANOV was Minister for the RSFSR.

A. So.

B. Then he was removed and SHELEPIN's Deputy from the KGB -- TIKUNOV -- replaced

him.

He was Deputy to SHELEPIN in the KGB;

he also was from the CC of the Party.

TIKUNOV, Vadim .. Vadim, was Minister of the MVD and this Ministry was

reorganized under TIKUMOV as the Ministry for the Preservation of Public

Order.

A.

And who else was there between them?

B. I think, after SIAKHANOV, there was TIKUNOV.

STANKHANOV was after KRUGLOV.

A. Did you ever hear of DUDOROV?

B. DUDOROV, DUDOROV - you are right; DUDOROV, yes.

After KRUGLOV, it was DUDORoV.

And, after that, it was STAKHANDOV; right.

A. Well, what did they do with DUDOROV?

B. He was removed.

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A. Well, where did they put him?

B. I do not know where they put him; I do not know where he worked.

A. And you do not know about STAKHANOV?

B. No, I do not know.

A. Probably there was talk in the KGB about what had happened to them.

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. And KRUGLOV - did they put him on pension or something?

B. At the beginning, they put him on pension, and then, after he was on pension,

the deprived him of the pension and put him out of the Party.

A. Of what did they accuse him?

B.

For old

deeds, for old deeds, when they reviewed all the old files.

A. But he helped to remove BERIYA.

B. SEROV helped to remove BERIYA.

A. KRUGLOV also was there.

If KRUGLOV had not helped, he would not have become Minister after BERIYA.

B. ((Long Pause.)) I do not know why KRUGIOV was removed; they even took away

his pension and put him out of the Party.

A: Well, we will take a short break.

( (BREAKS) )

A. You cannot answer anything

I. ask of you.

B. Well, understand

me;

I answer your questions as I

can.

I was thinking this way -- "Who, what kind of names did I know, not working

in KGB

...."

Let us say, I heard the name of the Chief of Convoy Iroops -- I heard it when

I was a student -- there was Lt Gen BOCHKOV.

From where ((did I hear this))?

His son, Boris BOCHKOV, lived in the same house as I, on Granovskly Street.

This BOCHKOV, at one time before the war, was the Chief Prosecutor.

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I know, when I was

a student in 1947-1948, this BOCHKOV was Chief of the

Convoy Troops.

Now, I heard

... I knew a Gennadiy NAGORNYY-NASEDKIN.

NASEDKIN-NAGORNYY.

He

once worked with GULAG.

I knew this young

fellow.

A. NASEDKIN -NAGORNY!?

B. This is a double name: NAGORITY-NASEDKIN, Or NASEDKIN-VAGORNYX.

A.

What was his rank?

B. I do not know -- a general, but I do not know.

This young fellow, Gennadiy, was in school with me ... in Baku

It seems he was ... yes.

A. Who is this NASEDKIN?

B. Well, the son of this NAGORNYY-NASEDKIN.

A. Did BOCHKOV also have a son?

B. Yes, Boris BOCHKOV;

we lived in the same building.

NASEDKIN had two sons; I did not know the other, I knew only Gennadiy.

BOCHOV had only one son, Boris, a pilot.

A. What else do you remember?

B. I am simply saying.. I am trying to answer what I recall, that which I

remember, as it was.

A. Well, there is very little, very little.

I doubt you have such a poor memory ....

B. Well, you know how the memory is - you read something... you look at it ...

oh, this, this, this, this, I know ... when (XG).

Can you describe the first identification (udostovereniye lichnost1) which

you received when you first began to work in the MVD?

B. It was a red book;

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Beneath the

seal, "Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR" or !.. of the

Union of SSR" was printed.

A. Well, you can forget such details;

tell me more.

B. That is all; there 1s absolutely nothing more printed on it.

A. Well, you know, there was

an interesting period

after the death

of STALIN

and before BERIYA's arrest, and then, after BERIYA's arrest and before they

organized the KGB.

What peculiarities were there about the identification which were noted

and which everyone knew about?

B. I do not know, I do not know.

I do not know what peculiarities there were, I do not know.

1. This is still another confirmation that you were not there at that time.

B. Well, what ... how (XG)?

A. If you cannot answer this question and say that youdo not know in any way ....

B. I do not know what there was that was so noticeable.

Up to that time, I had no identification.

I do not know, I am telling you.:

A. But you received it as soon as you began working.

B. Right; and I received ((that one with the inscription of)) the "Ministry of

Internal Affairs".

A. Are you sure that you received the identification for the Ministry of Internal

Affairs, or did you receive one for the Ministry of State Security at that time?

B. (Long pause; then, speaks with uncertainty, in a low voice:))

No ... Internal Affairs ....

A. Anyway, what was printed on it?

B. I do not know what you have in mind as a characteristic feature which was

noted by everyone.

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A.

I will tell you -- I have in mind

a special stamp that was put in the

identification at that time.

What kind

of stamp was it?

B.

((Pause; no answer.))

A. As soon as the MVD and MGB were combined, after the death of STALIN, they

put in a stamp, because the two Ministries began to run together.

B. I do not know; I do not remember, I do not remember, i danet remember.

A. And, after BERIYA was arrested, another stamp was put in.

B. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. This cannot be forgotten in any way.

B. I do not know.

A. Because, without that stamp, you could not get into a building.

The identification might have been an identification, but they would not

let you in.

No stamp, no entry.

B. I do not remember.

A. It was like this -- there were IVANOV and PETROV; they were working together

in the same directorate, etc.; well, it was like a great transmigration of the

people -- but, for one, they put in the stamp and he could freely enter; but

the other had no stamp

and

no entry at all.

If it was

necessary, one had

to order a one-time pass, despite the

fact that

they had

an indentification

for the MVD or the MGB.

B. No;

I do not remember the

stamp;

I do not remember.

A.

There were many jokes about this stamp; if you were there, you would never

forget them.

Mate I had it;

I la not remenia. "do wot smancer.

maybe not -- I do not renerber.

SECRET

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A. Again, this is one of the reasons that it

cannot be believed that you worked

there at that time.

Well, explain to me in detail -- what does the serial number (lichniy Znak) --

which you mentioned, mean?

When did they

introduce the serial number?

B. I do not remember when they introduced it.

They introduced

it ... it was made from a white metal, a plate.

There was a hole in it, on the left side ... "VS SSSR" -- this meant "Armed

Forces (Vooruzhennyye Sily) of the USSR" -- was cut in ((1.e. Into the metal)).

A. Cut in; what else?

B. "SSSR"; and, at the bottom, was "Ye ((E))", two zeros, and the number

(i.e.,

"Eoo....")).

A. Two zeros?

B. And the number;

that is all, nothing else.

A. What was the approximate size of this plate?

B. Like this ((illustrates.)).

A. Well, in centimeters, approximately.

B. The width -- 2 ems., and here, It will be 4-5; 2 ((cms.)) by 4, or 2 by 5.

A. Well, approximately 2 by 4?

B. Yes, by 4, by 4.

A. Or 2 by 5?

B. Yes.

A. Is the name printed on it?

glin M. 100t 11 10i

Te "soo"

SESRET,

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A. Was it' a simple aluminum plate?

B. At the top, there is "VS SSSR" then ... it is cut in, in black or blue ...

cut in there;

and, at the bottom, there is

the letter, "Ye", and the number

A.

What does

"Ye" stand for?

B. That signifies the series; I had a "Ye" serial number .. I do not know ...

perhaps this series was for the KGB.

A.

Series "Ye";

what do the two zeros stand for?

B. That was the beginning of the number.

A. What was your number?

B. Two zeros and then... I do not remember ... 1033 ... or 1020 ... I do not

remember ....

Iwo zeros and four more numbers.

((Pause.)) This serial number is printed in the KGB identification on the

left side, where the photo was; it is written in in India ink when you

receive the Identificiation. your serial number is already written in.

A. This is not the number of the identification?

B. No, this is not the number of the identification; this is the serial number.

No, no, no; the number of the identification is on the right.

Before I was Deputy Chief of the section, it was "OS", and ((for those)) from

((the position of)) chief of section, or, so

to

say, deputy chief of department,

here was "NS", "NS", that is right.

A. Well, and the identification?

B. And the number of the identification... it was "OS" and the number of the

identification, and then, later, from chief of

section and deputy chief

department,

NS" and the number of the identification.

A. Well, what does

"OS" stand for?

B. Well, probably "officer personnel (ofitserskiy Sostav)"; and "NS", probably

"executive personnel".

A. And "KS"?

SEGRET

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... I do not remember; I think it was "NS"

B. Well... I say "KS" or "NS"

"executive personnel".

A. Well, when and

why did they introduce these numbers?

What is it called -- the serial number?

B. Serial number.

A. "Serial number" or "personal tag" ("Lichniy nomer ili lichniy znak?")

B. This is a plate.

You are right:-- it is personal tag", but on it, there is the serial number,

your personal number.

And then, in the identification, it is written that this is not a "personal

tag", but a serial number, such and such.

A. Well, think it over -- when did they introduce them?

B. ((Pause.)) I do not remember; In any case, not earlier than 1956 ... not

earlier, not earlier, no, no.

A. Not earlier than 1956?

B. No, this plate ... not earlier

((Pause.)) I received

it when I was working in the Seventh Department; this

means in the period ... I was there from 1955 to 1959, something like that, in

this period, but in which year -- I do not know, I do not remember.

A. Why were these numbers introduced?

How was this explained?

For what were they needed?

B. Well, they did not explain; they gave them to us -- that is all; each of

us signed for his number; a Personnel officer gave them out.

A. Where were you instructed to keep them?

B. Well, I kept it in my safe, but -- in general' -- the idea was you had to keep

It somewhere on your person with your personal documents; you had to have It

with you; you might lose it.

But most of the time, it was in the safe.

look -- so many, as I, did the following: you have a little chain; then what?

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You have the key from the safe, a key to the room, the

seal with which

you seal the safe ...

At one time, I wore it here ....

A. What kind of a seal did you have?

What was the number on it?

B.

The seal was an old one, but it had "MGB" written on it.

An old seal.

It seems ... 325 ....

SAMARIN, the Supply man, issued it.

You had to

sign out for it, too.

There were instances in which they were lost.

A. Well, If you lose it, do they punish you and give you a new one?

B. They give you a

new one.

A. Did everyone have a seal?

B. ((Pause.)) You see, the idea was that everyone had to have this seal to

seal his safe; but, in practice... let us say you work in the Seventh

Department -- there are four - five people in a room; everyone tried to

have his own safe, but there was a shortage of small safes (dvoyka).

Because there were not enough small safes, there were large safes, taller

ones .. two or three people could use them.

One worker or another would seal the safe.

Anyone who might not have

one ((a seal)) would make excused not to get

one because he feared losing it.

A. But did every

seal

have

a number?

B. ((Pause.)) Well, I do not know; I did not check.

Of course, the seal has

& number; in the

center, there is a number.

A.

Was there anything else on these

seals?

B. There is writing around ((the edge of it)).

A. Well, what was written there?

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B. There

... I had an old seal

"Ministry of State Security USSR" or

"MGB"

... "MGB SSSR",

"MGB", yes, and, in the center, in the center,

number.

A. I asked

-- were there seals without numbers?

(END

OF REEL # 6 (3 August 1965 Session continued on Reel # 7) NO OVERLAP))

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