Agency: FBI
Originator: CIT
Document date: 06/21/1967
Document type: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY:

RECORD NUMBER:

RECORD SERIES:

AGENCY FILE NUMBER:

FBI

124-10144-10133

DL

89-43-7034, 7035

Released

under the John

F. Kennedy

issassination Records

Collection Act of 1992

144 USC 2107 Notel.

Case#:NW 54462 Date:

10-04-2017

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR: CIT

FROM:

TO:

TITLE:

DATE: 06/21/1967

PAGES: 26

SUBJECT:

SEE FBI 62-109060-5483

DOCUMENT TYPE:

ORIGINAL

CLASSIFICATION:

PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

Unclassified

REVIEW DATE:

STATUS

10/29/1998

Redact

NEW

CLASSIFICATION:

UPDATE DATE:

02/09/2001

RESTRICTIONS:

JFK Act 6 (4)

COMMENTS:

INC 2 CIT RPT

HH 54462 DocId: 32161772

Page 1

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## Page 2

# 9816-67

June 21, 196%

Les Hajkinse

Attorgey at Law

836-812 Filth Aveaue

Des Moines, Iowa

ARRANGEMENTS:

At your request, LILLIE MALA

detection oi deception technique

MAINES was examined on the polygraph, a

PROCEDURE:

Standard polygraph procedure was exercised throughout this examination.

ILSULTS:

Subject was examined in this office on June 19, 196%. She was given a Relevant

and Irrelevant type examination for the purpose of ascertaining if she possessed

any krowledge of an alleged meeting in Dave Ferric's home wherein there was

verbal intercourse relating to a plot to assassinate the late John F.

Kennedy.

During the pre-test interview, the Subject stated that she was boin Lillie

Mae

Spoilet on October 22, 1941, in Lucedale, Mississippi. She stated that/her real

mother uled when her younger sister was

born and that she was raisedy one of

hot father's cousins, Jarnes Molfeti, and his wife Ethel. She referred to these

people as her parents. She stated thät she was raised near Mobile, Alabama.

She said that she does not know whethor or not James and Ethel Moffett ever

adopted her.

Subjoct stated that she is presently married to larold ic Maines, aged 38 years.

She said that he does not bave a regular job and works/out of an "employmeni

office" in Omaha, Nebraska, as a truci: driver and as a furniture mover.

The Subject stated that ever

since she was old enough to underatand and remember,

her "mother" constantly told her that her older sister Gertrude, who lived in New

Orleans, Louisiana, was "a tramp and no good." She stated that these statements

'gio

74 54462

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## Page 3

Page 2

Mr. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae MicMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

finally caused her to run away from home in 1962 and proceed to New Orleans

to locate her sister Certrude.. She said that she just had to find out if her

vister was really "bad."

During six hours of interview and interrogation,

the Subject gave the folloxing

information regarding her stay in New Orleans, her returnto Mobile, Alabama,

then on to San Bernadino, California, then back to New Orleans, then to Omaha,

Nebraska, and finally to Des Moines, Iowa.

Subject stated toat when the first went to New Orleans she decided to use the

same sandra Moitett. She explained that she had been in New Oxleans for appro: •

mately three/weeks before her sister permitted her to go out "on the town" bi

herseli. She said that the first night she went out alone shermet Perry Suaso.

She said that the mecting occurred about 10:30 P.M. as she was walking down

bourbon Street and that Perry Russo, "Ken," Leity Peforson and "Timmy" wers

Also walking along Bourbon Strect. She related that is they passed on the street,

Timmy winked at her and she smiled. She continued that they all stopped on the

sidewall and talked. She said that during this conversation, Perry Russo volun-

veered to drive her home.

She continued that she, Perry Russo, leity, Ken and Timmy all gut into Perry's

car and proceeded to drive toward her sister's bome where she was staying but

they stopped on the way for cotfee and gasoline. She said that Perry Russo asked

her if she would go to school with him the following morning and she replied to him

That she would go with him provided her sister would permit her to do so.

She continued that Perry Russo stopped by the hodse the following morning but her

sister would not permit her to go with him but ber sister did agree that she could

attend a party that was being given for Ken Wink that night.

Subject stated that that party was held at a

place called the Frenchman's Inn. She

said that Perry was supposed to pick her up at 8:00.P.M. but he was late because

it was raining hard. She said that she and Perry arrived at the party at agoro i-

mately 9:00 P.M.

The Subject stated that she and Perry continued to dote until the early part of 1963.

She said that she became pregnant and after she told Perry that she was pregnant

" he told her to "get lost" until aiter the baby was born and then she should look him

.. up again.

74 54462

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## Page 4

Page 3

Mr. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RL: Lillie Mae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

The Subject stated that when she first told Perry Russo that she was pregnant,

a man (unknown to her) placed Perry in a hypnotic trance and questioned hir.

She said that while in the trance, Perry ackaowledged that he was the lather of

her yet unborn baby. She said that Perry later denied that he was the sather.

She went on to explain that she, Perry, and the unknown "hypnotist" (she des-

cribed his age as between 40 and 50 years) went to a place called the Royal

Castle and, while there, this unknown "hypnotist" again placed Perry in a

hypnotic trance. She said that he did not question Perry at this time but gave

hima a post-hypnotic suggestion, "When I snap my fingers you will awaken, get

off the stool, walk to the door and then return to the stool where you wili freeze

in your tracks and will be unable to move. " She said that wher the man snapped

pis fingers, Perry opened his eyes, got off the stool, walked to the door and

then turned and walked back to the stool. She said that Perry stood by the stool

and went through what appeared to be attempts at moving his body but he did not

actually move. She added that, in her opinion, Perry was faking his inability to

move while standing by the stool.

Subject said that the next time she saw Perry (after telling him that she was

pregnant) was a very short time later and she spent about one-hali hour talking

with him in his home. She said that when she departed his home, a friend of his

named "Fido" knocked her down on the lawn, hit her in the stomach with hie list,

and made the comment, "Why don't you leave him alone?" She explained that she

screamed loudly when atruck by Fido hoping that Perry Would come outside but

he did not. She said that Fido went into Perry's home alter knocking her down

and striking her. She said that as soon as she régained ber sense of direction,

she got up and went home.

The Subject stated that when she was about three months pregrant, she attempted

suicide by taking 175 aspirin. She said that a girl friend named Kathy found hes

and tool: her to the Charity Hospital in New Orleans by taxicab. She said that her

stomach was pumped at the hospital and she said that the hospital notified the

police department but her girl friend Kathy talked the officer out of taking her to

NW 54462 DooId: 32161772 Page 4

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## Page 5

Page &

Mi. Hawkins

June 21, 1907

RE: Lillie Mae Mcmaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

Subject stated that when she was about four months pregnant, she married a

Frank agems in Dallas, Texas. She did not tut the circumstances surrounding

a divorce trom Adama.

The Subject stated that when she was between 15 and 16 years of age, her

"mother" took her to a psychiatrist because she had run away from home.

She

Said that she visited the psychiatrist about four times but she did not know what

he reported about hes.

Subject related that she gave birth prematurely on August 30, 1063. She said

that she was released from the hospital on September 3rd or 4th, 1963. She said

that she went to Perzy Russo's house the day following her release from the

hospital but she did not see or talk with him again until June of July of 1954.

Subject then related how Perry Russo photographed her on several occasions

while she was engaging in the act of coitus with different men.

She explained

that. Perry had his own dark room and developed the pictures himself.

Subject then related that she and a girl named Ann visited her baby in the hospital

frequently. She further stated that her "parents" came from Alabama to New

Orleans and also visited the baby in the hospital.

Subject continued that her baby was released from the hospital on September 20,

1963, and on this saine date she leit Now: Orleans with a James Robert Ervin

(Russo had introduced her to him). She said that the two of them and the baby

went by bus to her "parents''' home. She gave her "parents" addrbus as Box 326

in Eight Mile, Alabama and she said that this town is located near Mobile.

She weat on to explain that James Robert Ervin was unable to find employment

in Mobile and so he went to New Orleans and obtained a job in an establishment

called Little Crystal Cafe. She said that this establishment is located on Royal

Street in New Orleans. She

said that dimmy worked and stayed in New Orleans

during the week and he would hitchhike to her "parenta" home in Eight Mile,

Alabama, over the weekends.

NW 54462

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## Page 6

Page 5.

Me. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'o):

Subject stated that she and Jimmy leit Eight Mile in February of 1904 (leaving

the baby with her "mother") and they went to San Bernadino, California, where

they stayed with an aunt of hers. She said that from the time she left New

Orleans to go to Eight Mile and then to California, she did not make one trip

to New Orleans.

Lubject relnted that she and Jlamy went through a wedding ceremony in Tisjuana,

Mexico, in June of 1964. She continued that Jimmy left her the latter part of

this same month.. She said that the day aiter sammy leit her, she went to ivew

Arleans by bus.

Subject related that when she arrived in New Orleans, she called Perry Russo

and he came to the bus depot and drove her and hei personal belonzines to his

lome. She said that she spent the night in Perry's apartment and then the follow

ing day she rented a room 10r hersell.

She said that alter she rented the room,

she went job hunting and she met James Robert Ervin on the street. She said

that they decided to live together again. She said that she did obtain a job as a

parmaid. She said that she and Jimmy lived together for only one week and he

again walked out on her. She said that he left on July 3, 1964.

The Subject said that she then turned to prostitution as a means of supporting

herscli and in order to save up enough money to get hes baby back from her

"mother. " She further esplained that sho gave Perry Rusdo "around a hundred

dollars" to keep for her. but he never gave it back to her,

She said that on one

other occasion, she loaned Perry $20. 00 to use to pay fis insurance but he did

not repay this money either.

The Subject stated that the first time sha mei Dave Certie was in either the latter

part of January of the first part of February of 1906. She explained that she was

with Perry Russo and he wanted to see Dave bezzie about something and so the

two of them went to Dave's apartment.

Ferrie and his two roommates. She said that they stayed at Dave's apartment

for only a few minutes and they lett.

74 54462

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## Page 7

Page 6

Mi, Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

The Subject said that the next timo she saw Dave F'errie was less than a weel:

after firat meeting him and was on a Sunday. She explained that Dave invited

her to his apartment for lunch with hir and his two roommates. She said that

Dave picked her up at her place in a blue Ford station wagon and they arrived at

Dave's apartment at approximately 12:30 or 1:00 P.M. She said that she stayed

at this apartment until about 5:30 P.Mí. at which time he drove her back to her

Wlace.

Subject said that she next saw Dave berrie on the following Wednesday or

Thursday when be care by Sam's place where she was employed.: She said that

Dave asked her if she would go out with him the following Friday night.

fubject said that on this Friday night, Dave picked her up at her apartment

¿bout 6:00 or 6:30 P.M. and they first proceeded to Davo's apartmeni where one

di Devo's 100mmates and his date

were waiting. She said the jour of them then

went to several places to dance and drinl. but they did not have dinner.

The Subject emplatical

denied ever meeting Shaw or Oswald.

She said that she

never ettended a party

at Dave Ferric's house. She stated that she had never been

to a football gaine but she did attend basketball and baseball games with Periy

Russo and Leity Peterson.

The Subject stated/that Perry Russo was extremely interested in politics. She

said that he was a Republican and a strong advocate and backer of Goldwater.

The Subject stated that she attended a political meeting with Perry Russo and

three other men but she could not be sure of their names. She related that the

meeting was held in a big house on Canal Street in cither April or May of 1965.

She said that she and three men stayed in a back room of the house and watched

television. She said that she did not see all of the people at the meeting. She said

that she did not hear anyone speaking Spanish nor did she see any Spanish, Cubans

or Puerto Ricans at this inecting.

The Subject commented that Lefty Peterson is "all upstairs" but is a good guy

otherwise.

54462

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## Page 8

Page i

Me. Hawkins.

June 21, 1907

RE: Lillie Mae Mclaines

RESULTS (cont'4):

The Subject explained that Perry Russo habitually made notes about everything.

She said that he made notes of things lie had to do, the times he was supposed to

be somewhere, and places he had to go. She said that Perry told her he made

notes of everything because he was so busy that he did not waul to forget anything.

The Subject explained that on one occasion she went to Perry's house and Mike.

gitagerald was there.

She said that Mike told her that he had juot found Periy

in the bathroom with his wrists all slashed up and thet he had tried to commit

suicide. She said that she then left and did not see Perry.

The Subject stated that when Perry first intsoduced her to Jimmy Ervin, he

susgested they all go to Jimmy's apartment and he would like to make photographs

of her and Jimmy engaging in coitus.

She said that a girl friend of hers named

Jeannie became very angry with Perry when he made this suggestion.. She said

they did not go.

The Subject stated that the most inen she ever

engaged in sexual intercourse with,

onc immediately following the other, would be two. She said that these were two'

men she hustled when she was working as a prostitute. She related that she

hustled one man one night and he went into the bathroom aiter undressing. She

said that she locked him in the bathroom, tool: $120. 00 from his pocket and ran

out of the room. She stated that on one occasion Perry wanted to photograph ber

and a girl named Kathy engaged in a sox act together but she said that someone

came in unexpectedly and the act was never consummated.

The Subject related that two investigators from District Attorney Garrison'

office came to her home in the midolo oi the night of March 8, 1907, in Omaha.

She said that they requested her to leave immediately with them and return to

New Orleans for the purpose of looking at some photographs. She said that they

told hor that they did not know what the photographa were.

She continued that she

told them that she could not leave then because she had a coat and other clothing

in the cleaners. The said that these two men, Simms and Jonah, told her not to

worty---they would buy her some new clothes.. She said that they further told her

that she would stay in the finest hotels and eat the linest foods.

74 54462

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## Page 9

Page S

Mi.

Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillic Mac McMaines

RESULTS (cont'a):

She continued that her husband (Harold McMaines) spoke up and stated that ho

did not want to let her go and that he wanted to consult with an attorney. She

said that the two investigators then offered to buy a ticket for ber husband

also. She said that after her husband insisted on talking with an attorney first,

the two investigators told her husband not to consuli with an attorney beceuse

she might get hurt if he did and they wanted to keep everything quiet. She said

Lehat they did leave howevei.

M The Subject esplained that she fold this entice stary to a reporter nairied

Zimmerman with the World-Ülerald in Omaha. Ohe said that after the story

appeared in print she and her husband both lost their jobs. She went on to rolate

that the reporter Zimmerman told her that she needed an attorney and arranged

los her to meet attorney Lex Hawkins.

Va:

The Subject was givea four separate tests and was asked the following relevant

questions and gave the answers indicated:

First Test:

Q. Do you have any intention of trying to lie to me during this test? A. No.

Ilave you told me the complote truth since we have been talking? A. Yes.

Did you attend the party at Ferrie's home that Perry claims you attended?

A. No.

Did you ever meet Shaw? A. No.

Are you doliberately trydag to withhold any information from me regarding

the party? A. No.

Second Test:

Have you told nie the complete truth here todny? A. Yes.

Did you attend the party Perry says you did? A.

No.

Are you trying to withhold any information from me regarding this case?

A. No.

54462

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## Page 10

Page 9

Mr.

Hawkins

June 21, 1957

RE: Lillie Mae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'a):

Third Tost:

Q.

Did you lic to Mr. Hawkios at all? A. Yes.

2. Did Perry over tell you that the President was going to be assassinated?

A. No.

Did you go to the party at Dave's house that Perry says you did? A. No.

Are you attempting to protect or cover up for anyone? A. No.

Are you trying to hold back any information from me now? A. No.

Lourth Test:

Have you told me the complete truth here today? A. Yes.

Would you lic is it would help you stay out of jail? A. Yes.

Were you over present when any people talkod about assassinating the

Psesident? A.

No.

Is Perry telling the truth about you attending the party? A. No.

Are you attenpting to withbold any information from me now? A. No.

have you purposely lied to any of my questions? A. io.

During the first thace teste, her polygrams contained reactions to the relevant

question: "Are you trying to withhold or conceal any information from me?"

Following the third test, she explained that she suspects Perry Russo might be

"a little queer" for Mike Fitzgerald.. There was not a reaction to the question

In the test following this explanation.

The Subject was asked by this examiner why she thought Perry Russo was telling

this story. She esploined that the last time she saw him, which was in June or

July of 1965, he asked hor it she would marry him. She stated that he said that

he wanted to marry her so that he wouldn't have to go into the military service.

She stated that she told him she would not marry hini. She then quoted him as

saying, "You have got to marry me and help keep me out of the service." She

stated that she again told him she would not marry him and then further quoted

him as saying, "Il you won't marry me, I'll have to find someone else who will. "

She added that she believes he is telling thia story in an endeavor to avoid going

Into the military service.

NW 54462 DocId: 32161772 Page 10

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## Page 11

Page 10

Mr. Hawking

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae McMaines

CONCLUSION:

After careful analysis of this Subject's polygrams, it is the opinion of the

examiner that she told substantially the truth during her exarcination and

interrogation.

Leonard It. Harrelson

LEONARDE

(ELEN INC.

DHH/mad

74 54462

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## Page 12

# 9816-67

June 21, 1967

CONE

1e= Hawkins,

Attorney at Law

836-842 Fifth Avenue

Des Moines, Iowa

ARRANCEMENTS:

It your request, LILLIE MAE MC MAINES was examined on the polygraph, a

detection of deception technique.

PROCEDURE:

Standard polygraph procedure was exercised throughout this examination.

RESULTS:

Subject was examined in this office on June 19, 1967. She was given a Relevant

and Irrelevant type examination for the purpose of ascertaining if she possessed

any knowledge of an alleged meeting in Dave Ferrie's home wherein there was

verbal intercourse relating to a plot to assassinate the late John F. Kennedy.

During the pre-test interview, the Subject stated that she was born Lillie Mae

¿policit on October 22, 1914, in Lucedale, Mississippi. She stated that her real

mother died when her younger

sister was born and that she was raised by one of

ber father's cousins, James Moffett, and his wife Ethel. She reierred to these

people as her parents. She stated that she was raised ncar Nobile, Alabama.

She said that she does not know whether or not James and Ethel Moffett ever

adopted her.

Subject stated that she is presently married to Harold McMaines, aged 38 years.

She said that he does not bave a regular job and works out of an "employment

office"' in Omaha, Nebraska, as a truck driver and as a furniture mover.

The Subject stated that ever since she was old enough to underatand and remember,

her "mother" constantly told her that her older sister Cerirude, who lived in Ne

Orleans, Louisiana, was "a trap and no good. " She stated that these statements

74 54462

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## Page 13

Page 2

Nir. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

finally caused her to run away from home in 1962 and proceed to New Orleans

to locate her sister Gertrude. She said that she just had to find out if her

sister was really "bad."

During six hours of interview and interrogation, the Subject gave the following

information regarding her stay in New Orleans, her return to Mobile, Alabama,

then on to San Bernadino, California, then back to New Orleans, then to Omaha,

Nebraska, and finally to Des Moines, Iowa.

Subject stated that when she first went to New Orleans she decided to use the

name Sandra Molfett. She explained that she had been in New Orleans for appro: -

imately three weeks before her sister permitted her to go out "on the town" by

herself. She said that the first night she went out alone she met Perry Russo.

She said thot the mecting occurred about 10:30 P.M. as she was walking down

Mourbon Street and that Perry Russo, "Ken, " Leity Peterson and "Timmy" were

also. walking along Bourbon Street. She related that as they passed on the street,

Timmy winked at her and she smiled. She continued that they all stopped on the

sidewall. and talked. She said thot cusing this conversation, Perry Russo volun

seered to drive her home.

She continued tlat she, Perry Russo, Lefty, Ken and Timmy all gut into Perry's

car and proceeded to drive toward hor sister's home where she was staying but

they stopped on the way for coffee and gasoline. She said that Perry Russo asked

her if she rould go to school with him the following morning and she replied to him

that she would go with him provided her sister would permit her to do so.

/She continued that Perry Russo stopped by the house the following morning but her

sister would not permit her to go with him but her sister did agree that she could

attend a party that was being given for Ken Wink that night.

Subject stated that that party was held at a place called the Frenchman's Inn. She

said that Perry was supposed to pick ber up at 8:00 P.M. but he was late because

it was raining hard. She said that she and Perry arrived at the party at appro.i-

mately 9:00 P.M.

The Subject stated that she and Perry continued to date until the early pari of 1963.

She said that'

she became pregnant and aiter she told Perry that she was pregaant

he told her to "get lost" until alter the baby was born and then she should look him

' up again.

74 54462

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## Page 14

Page 3

Mr. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

The Subjeet stated that when she first told Perry Russo that she was pregnant,

a man (unknown to her) placed Perry in a hypnotic trance and questioned him.

She said that while in the trance, Periy acknowledged that he was the father of

her yet unborn baby. She said that Perry later denied that he was the father.

She went on to explain that she, Perry, and the unknown "hypnotist" (she des-

cribed his age as between 40 and 50 years) weat to a place called the Royal

Castle and, while there, this unknown "hypnotist" again placed Perry in a

hypnotic trance. She said that he did not question Perry al this time but gave

Jim a post-hypnotic suggestion, "When I snap my fingers you will awaken, get

oif the stood, walk to the door and then return to the stool where you will freeze

in your tracks and will be unable to move." She said that when the man snapped

his fingers, Perry opened his eyes, got off the stool, walked to the door and

then turned and walked back to the stool. She said that Perry stood by the stool

and went through what appeared to be attempts at moving his body but he did not

actually move.

She added that, in her opinion, Perry was faking his inability to

move while standing by the stool.

Subject said that the next time she saw Perry (after telling him that she was

pregnant) was a very short time later and she spent about one-halt hour talking

wit's him in his home. She said that when she departed his home, a friend of his

named "Fido" knocked her down on the lawn, hit her in the etomach with his fist,

and made the comment, "Why don't you leave him alone?" She explained that she

screamed loudly when struck by Fido hoping that Perry would come outside but

Me did not. She said that Fido went into Perry's home after knocking her down

and striking heI.

She said that as soon as she regained her sense of direction,

she got up and went home.

The Subject stated that when she was about three months pregnant, she attempted

suicide by taking 175 aspirin. She said that a girl friend named Kathy found her

and tool: her to the Charity Hospital in New Orleans by taxicab. She said that her

stomach was pumped at the hospital and she said that the hospital notified the

police departinent but her girl friend Kathy talked the officer out of taling her to

jail.

74 54462

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## Page 15

Page 4

Ids. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mac McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

Subject stated that when she was about four months pregnant, she married a

Frank Adams in Dallas, Texas. She did not tell the circumstances surrounding

a divorce from Adams.

The Subject stated that when she was between 15 and 16 years of age, her

"mother"

took her to a psychiatrist because she had run away from home. She

said that she visited the psychiatrist about four times but she did not know what

he reported about her.

Lubject related that she gave birth prematurely on August 30, 1963. She said

that she was released from the hospital on September 3rd or 4il, 1963. She said

that she went to Perry Russo's house the day following her release from the

hoopital but she did not seo or talk with him again until June or July of 196%.

Subject then related how Perry Russo photographed her on several occasions

while she was engaging in the act of coitus wita different men.

She explained

that Perry had his owa dark room and developed the pictures himself.

Subject then related that she and a girl named Ann visited her baby in the hospital

trequently. She further stated that her "parents" came from Alabama to New

Orleans and also visited the baby in the hospital.

Subject continued that her baby was released from the hospital on September 20,

1963, and on this same date she leit New Orleans with a James Robert Ervin

Russo had introduced her to him). She said that the two of them and the baby

went by bus to her "parents'" home. She gave her "parents" address as Dox 326

Ia Eight Mile, Alabama and she said that this town is located near Mobile.

She went on to explain that Jarnes Robert Ervin was unable to find employment

in Mobile and so he went to New Orleans and obtained a job in an establishment

called Little Crystal Cafe. She said that this establishment is located on Royal

Street in New Orleans. She said that Jimmy worked and stayed in New Orleans

during the week and he would hitchhike to her "parents" home in Fight Mile.

Alabama, over the weekends.

74 54462

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## Page 16

Page 5.

ME. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Mac Mclaines

RESULTS (cont'o):

Subject stated that she and Jimmy leit Eight Mile in February of 1961 (leaving

the baby with her "mother") and they went to San Bernadino, California, where

they stayed with an aunt of hers.

She said that from the time she left New

Orleans to go to Eight Mile and then to California, she did not make one trip

to New Orleans.

Subject related that she and Jimmy went through a wedding ceremony in Tiajuana,

Mexico, in June of 1964. She continued that Jimmy left her the latter part of

his same month. She said that the day after Jimmy left her, she went to New

Drleans by bus.

Subject related that when she arrived in New Orleans, she called Perry Russo

and he came to the bus depot and drove her and her personal belongings to his

Plone. She said that she spent the night in Perry's apartment and then the follow-

ing day she rented a room fox herself. She said that aiter she rented the room,

she went job hunting and she met James Robert Ervin on the strect. She said

that they decided to live together again. She said that she did obtain a job as a

barmaid. She said that she and Jimmy lived together for only one week and he

gain walked out on her.. She said that he left on July 3, 1964.

The

Subject said that she then turned to prostitution as a means of supporting

herself and in order to save up enough money to get her baby back from her

"mothes." She further explained that she gave Perry Russo "around a hundred

dollars" to keep for her but he never gave it back to her., She gaid that on one

Other occasion, she loaned Perry $20. 00 to use to pay his inaurance but he did

not repay this money either.

The Subject stated that the first time she met Dave Ferrie was in either the latter

part of January of the first part of February of 1965. She explained that she was

with Perry Russo and he wanted to see Dave Ferrie about something and so the

two of them went to Dave's apartment. She said that Perry introduced her to

Ferrie and his two roommates. She said that they stayed at Dave's apartment

for only a few minutes and they leit.

NW 54462 DocId: 32161772 Page 16

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## Page 17

Page 6

Mr. Fawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillie Ivae McMaines

RESULTS (cont'e):

The Subject said that the next time she saw Dave l'errie was less than a weel.

after first meeting him and was on a Suaday. She explained that Dave invited

her to his apartient for lunch with him and his two r00mmates.

She said that

Dave picked her up at her place in a blue Ford station wagon and they arrived at

Dave's epartment at approximately 12:30 or 1:00 P.M. She said that she stayed

subject said that she next saw bave certie on the tollowing Wednesday or

Thursday when he came by San's place where she was employed. She said that

Dave asked her it she would go out with him the following Friday night.

Fubject said that on this friday night, Dave picked hot up at hot apartment

Kout 6:00 or 6:30 P.M. and they first proceeded to Dave's apartment where one

di Davels roommates and his date were waiting. She said the four of them then

went to several places to dance and drink but they did not have dinner.

The Subject emphatically denied ever mecting Shaw or Oswald. She said that she

never attended a party at Dave Ferrie's house. She stated that she had never been

to & football gaine but she did attend basketball and baseball games with Perry

Russo and Lefty Peterson.

The Subject stated that Perry Russo was extremely interestod in politics. She

said that he was a Republican and a strong advocate and backer of Goldwater.

The Subject stated that she attended a political meeting with Perry Russo and

three other men but she could not be sure of their names. She related that the

meeting was held in a big house on Canal Street in either April or May of 1965.

She said that she and three men atayed in a back room of the house and watched

telovision. She said that she did not see all of the people at the meeting. She said

that she did not heaï anyone speaking Spanish nor did she see any Spanish, Cubans

or Puerto Ricans at this meeting.

The Subject commented that Lefty Peterson is 'off upstairs" but is a good guy

otherwise.

HH

54462

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## Page 18

• Page 7

Ni. Hawkins

June 21, 1908

RE: Lillie Mao McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

The Subject explained that Perry Russo habitually made notos about everything.

She said that he made notes of things he bad to do, the times he was supposed to

be somewhere, and places he had to go. She said that Perry told lei he made

notes of everything because he was so busy that he did not went to forget anything.

The Subject explained that on one occasion she went to Perry's house and Mike

Fitagerald was tacre.

She said that Mile told her that he had just found Pesry

in the bathroom with his wrists all slashed un and that he had tried to commit

suicide. She said that she thon left and did not see Perry.

The Subject stated that when Perry first introduced her to Jimmy Ervit, he

suggested they all go to Jimmy's apartment and he would like to make photographs

of hor and Jirmy engaging in coitus. She said that a girl friend of hers named

Jeannie became very angry with Perry when he made this suggestion. She said

choy did not go.

The Subject stated that the most men she ever engaged in serual intercourse with,

one immediately following the othes, would be two. She said that these were two

men she hustled when she was working as a prostitute. She related that she

hustled one man one night and he went into the bathroom niter undressing. She

said that she locked him in the bathroom, took $120. 00 from his pocket and ran

out of the room. Sho stated that on one occasion Perry wanted to photograph her

and a girl named Kathy engaged in a ser act together but she said that someone

came in unexpectedly and the act was never consummated.

The Subject related that two investigators from District Attorney Garrison'e

office came to her home in the middle o: the night of March 8, 1967, in Omaha.

She said that they requested her to leave immediately with there and return to

New Orleans for the purpose of looking at some photographs. She said that they

told her that they did not know what the photographs were. She continued that she

told them that she could not leave then because she had a coat and other clothing

in the cleaners. She said that these two men, Simms and Jonah, told her not to

worry--they would buy her some new clothes. She said that they further told her

that she would stay in the finest hotels and eat the finest foods.

NH 54462

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## Page 19

Page 8

Nie. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RE: Lillic Mac McMaines

RESULTS (cont'd):

She continued that her husband (Harold McMaines) spoke up and stated that he

did not want to let her go and that he wanted to consult with an altorney. She

said that the two investigators then offered to buy a ticket for hez husband

also. She sald that alter her husband insisted on taliing with an attorney first,

the two investigators told her husband not to consult with an attorney because

she might get hurt li he did and they wanted to keep everything quiet. She said

Joes they did leave however.

Tho Subject explained that she told this entire story to a reporter named

Jatanarcan win the World lorald in Orane. She sal that aise the story.

appeared in print she and hez husband both lost their jobs. She went on to relate

that the reporter Zimmerman told her that she needed an attorney and arranged

for hor to mect attornoy Lex Hawkins.

The Subject was given four separate tests and was asked the following relevant

questions and gave the anowers indicated:

First Teat:

Q. Do you have any intention oi trying to lie to me during this test? A. No.

Liave you told me the complote truth since we have been talking? A. Yes.

Q.

Did you attend the party at E'crrie's home that Perry claims you attended?

A.

No.

Did you ever meet Shaw? A. No.

Are you deliberately trying to withhold any information from me regarding

the party? A. No.

Second Test:

Q. Have you told me the complete truth here today? A. Yes.

Q. Did you attand the party Perry says you did? A. No.

Q. Are you trying to withhold any information from me regarding this case?

A. No.

NH 54462

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## Page 20

Page 9

Mr.

Hawkins

June 21, 1957

KC: Lillie biao Niciviaines

RESULTS (cont'a):

Ikird Test:

S. Did you lie to Mr. Hawkins at all? A. Yes.

Did Perry evor tell you that the President was going to be assassinated?

A. No.

Did you go to the party at Dave's house that Perry says you did? A. No.

Are you attempting to protect or cover up for anyone? A. No..

Are you trying to hold back any information from me now? A.

No.

Fourth Test:

Q.

tie.

Mave you told me the complete truth here today? A. Yes.

Would you lie if it would help you stay out of jail? A. Yes.

Were you ever present when any people talked about assassinating the

President? A. No.

Is Perry telling the truth about you attending the party? A. No.

Are you attempting to withhold any iaformation from ine now? A. No.

Have you purposely lied to any oi my questions? A. No.

During the first three tests, hes polygrams contained reactions to the relevant

question: "Are you trying to withhold or conceal any information from me?"

Following the third test, she explained that she suspects' Perry Russo might be

"a little queer" for Mike Fitzgerald.

There was not a reaction to the question

On the test following this esplanation.

The Subject was asked by this oxaminer why she thought Perry Russo was telling

this story. She explained that the last time she saw him, which was in June os

July of 1965, he asked her is she would marry him. She stated that he said that

he wanted to marry her so that he wouldn't have to go into the military seivice.

She stated that she told him she would not marry him. She then quoted him as

saying, "You have got to murry me and help keep me out of the service." She

stated that she agoin told him she would not marry him and then lurther quoted

him as saying,

"'It you won't marry me, I'll have to lind someone else who will. "

She added that she believes he is telling this story in an endeavor to avoid going.

into the military service.

NW 54462 DooId: 32161772 Page 20

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## Page 21

Page 10

Mr. Hawkins

June 21, 1967

RD: Lillie Mae McMaines

CONCLUSION:

Altos careful analysis of thie Subject's polygrams, it is the opinion of the

examiner that she told substantially the truth during her examination and

interrogation.

canards titanelso

sonard 1. Harrelson

LEONARDE KEELER, INC.

HH/mad

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## Page 22

On June 22, 1967,

L. H.

Hayrelson, in a telephone conversation with a con-

fidential source in New Orleans, Louisiana, obtained the following iniormation

with regard to Perry Russo.

This informant, who is well known to L.H.H. and who is a polygraph examiner

having been trained at/the Keeler Polygraph Institute, stated that Perry Russo was

examined by another polygraph examiner with the Sheriff's Office in New Orleans

and that he had heard that the Sheriff's Office examiner stated that Russo was lying

regarding the story of the plot to assassinate the late John E. Kennedy.

Jhis informant also advised L. HI.H. that Perry Russo had been subjected to

narco-interrogation, using sodium pentathol and that he had further been subjected

to hypno-interrogation. He stated that a local psychiatrist subsequently blasted

District Attorney Garrison for using these two techniques and suggested that Russo

should be examined on the polygraph which should be more reliable. This informant

stated that he received a call requesting him to examine Russo in regard to his

story. He stated that he was told that Russo wanted to meet him first to see what

kind of a person he was.

He stated that he made an appointment and met Russo for the first time Friday,

June 16, 1967. He stated that at this time he talked for a while and Russo requested

that he be given a trial run on the polygraph and that he wanted to be asked 10 or 20

questions and intended to lie to some of them to see if the examiner could detect

fit.

The source stated that he instead had Russo write down a number on a piece of

paper and place it in his pocket. He stated that he then made Russo a bet of $5.00

that he could pick out the number. He further stated that Russo called the bet, the

test was run and the examiner picked out the number.

He stated that Russo appeared in his office on June 19, 1967 to be examired in re-

gard to his story reporting the plot to assassinate the late John F. Kennedy.

stated that he attempted to exarnine Russo but that his neumo tracing (breathing)

was so erratic that he reported to D.A. Garrison that he felt Russo was an unfit

subject for polygraph testing at this time. He further stated that he did talk with

Russo about his tracing and explained to him that he obviously had something

bothering him. He stated Russo told him that he told the story in court because he

was getting so much pressure from D.A. Garrison and also NBC. He stated that

Russo further made the statement to him that he did not know if Clay shaw was.

present at the meeting or not. He stated that Russo added that if he had to say

"yes" or "no" that he would have to say "no." that Clay Shaw was not present.

NW 54462 DooId: 32161772 Page 22

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## Page 23

Page 2

This examiner stated that he asked Russo why he went into court and under oath

stated that Shaw was present at the alleged meeting. He stated that Russo replied

that he fully intended to go into court and testify that he did not know if Shaw was

present or not but became angered by Shaw's attorney's question, "Do you believe

in God" and afterwards did testify that Shaw was definitely present.

This informant stated that Russo admitted having undergone psychiatric treatment

for one and one-half years. He stated that Russo admitted to homosexual acts.

This informant stated that he fully believes that he would have been able to break

Russo had he continued. He stated that after giving a verbal report to Mr. Garrison

that Mr. Garrison told him in no uncertain terms to keep his mouth shut and not to

say anything about the test or what Russo said. This informant further stated that

kis official written report to Mr. Garrison is going to indicate that in his opinion

Russo was an unfit subject on Monday, June 19, 1967.

OTE:

The erratic breathing pattern that was described by this informant can indicate

claustrophobia, however, in all of the experience that I have had in conducting

polygraph examinations, an erratic breathing pattern as a general gule is an indica-

tion that the subject is being deceptive.

L.H.H.

mad

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## Page 24

On June 22, 1967, L. H. Harrelson, in a telephone conversation with a con-

fidential source in New Orleans, Louisiana, obtained the following information

with regard to Perry Russo.

This informant, who is well known to L.H.H. and who is a polygraph examiner

having been trained at the Keeler Polygraph Institute, stated that Perry Russo was

examined by another polygraph examiner with the Sheriff's Office in New Orleans

and that he had heard that the Sheriff's Office examiner stated that Russo was lying

regarding the story of the plot to assassinate the late John F. Kennedy.

This informant also advised L. H.H. that Perry Russo had been subjected to

narco-interrogation, using sodium pentathol and that he had further been subjected

the paying tee entries a dent a tee

stated that he received a call requesting him to examine Russo in regard to his

story. He stated that he was told that Russo wanted to meet him first to see what

-kind

of a person he was.

He stated that he made an appointment and met Russo for the first time Friday,

June 16, 1967.

He stated that at this time he talked for a while and Russo requested

that he be given a trial run on the polygraph and that he wanted to be ashed 10 or 20

questions and intended to lie to some of them to see if the examiner could detect

't.

The source stated that he instead had Russo write down a number on a piece of

paper and place it in his pocket. He stated that he then made Russo a bet of $5.00

that he could pick out the number. He further stated that Russo called the bet, the

test was run and the examiner picked out the nuber.

He stated that Russo appeared in his office on June 19, 1967 to be examined in re-

gard to his story reporting the plot to assassinate the late John F. Kennedy. He

stated that he attempted to examine Russo but that his neumo tracing (breathing)

was so erratic that he reported to D.A. Garrison that he felt Russo was an unfit

subject for polygraph testing at this time.. He further stated that he did talk with

Russo about his tracing and explained to him that he obviously had something

bothering him. He stated Russo told him that he told the story in court because he

was getting so much pressure from D.A. Garrison and also NBC. He stated that

"Russo further made the statement to him that he did not know if Clay Shaw was

'present at the meeting or not. He stated that Russo added that if he had to say

"yes" or "no" that he would have to say "no" that Clay Shaw was not presant.

NW 54462 DooId: 32161772 Page 24

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## Page 25

Page 2

This examiner stated that he asked Russo why he went into court and under oath

alleged meeting. He stated that Russo replied

that he fully intended to go into court and testify that he did not know if Shaw was

present or not but became angered by Shaw's attorney's question, "Do you believe

in God" and afterwards did testify that Shaw was definitely present.

This informant stated that Russo admitted having undergone psychiatric treatment

for one and one-half years. He stated that Russo admitted to homosexual acts.

This informant stated that he fully believes that he would have been able to break

Russo had he continued.

He stated that after giving a verbal report to Mr. Garrison

that ir. Garrison told him in no uncertain terms to keep his mouth shut and not to

say anything about the test or what Russo said. This informant further stated that

His oíficial written report to Mi. Garrison is going to indicate that in his opinion

Russo was an unfit subject on Monday, June 19, 1967.

NOTE:

The erratic breathing pattern that was described by this informant can indicate

claustrophobia, however, in all of the experience that I have had in conducting

polygraph examinations, an erratic breathing pattern as a general gule is an indica-

tion that the sub ject is being deceptive.

L. H. H.

mad

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