Originator: HSCA
From: [RESTRICTED]
Document date: 05/18/1978
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

## Page 1

180-10131-10332

2022 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

JFK Assassination: System

Identification orm

Agency Inform ition

Date:

10/19/20

AGENCY: HSCA

RECORD NUMBER:

180-10131-10332

RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY

AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014730

Document Infoi mation

ORIGINATOR: HSCA

FROM: [Restricted]

TO :

TITLE:

DATE: 05/18/1978

PAGES:

64

SUBJECTS :

CIA, METHODOLOGY

CIA, STAFF

[Restricted]

OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN I'ERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO

MEXICO

MEXICO CITY

DOCUMENT TYPE:

TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION:

Declassified

RESTRICTIONS :

IA; 1B

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 01/01/2003

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS:

Box 7

v9.1

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Nur drines

TABLE' O1' CONTENTS

Testimony of Alan B. Whitr:

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LAF RANCE : mS 1

10r SLonel

ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F.

KENNEDY

1

Thursda!,

May 18, 1978

U. S. House of Representatives,

John F. Kennedy Subcommittee of

Select Committee on Assassinations!,

Washington; D. C.

Deposition of:

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ALAN B. WHITE

called for examination by staff counsel for the subcommittee,

pursuant to notice, in the offices of House Anney. II, Room

3370, Second and D Streets:, Southwest, Washington, D. C.,

beginning at 10:00 a.m., before Albert Joseph LaFrance, a

Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, when were

present on behalf of the : espective parties:

For the Subcommittee:

MICHAEL GOLDSMITH, ESQ.,

staff Counsel

For the Deponent:

(There was no representat on by counsel)

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Whereupon,

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ALAN 3. WHITE

having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as

follows:

Mr. Goldsmith. Please state your name and occupation

for the recora.

involved in real estate.

Mr. White. My name is Alan B. White. I am presently

Mr. Goldsmith. In wiat state do you live, Mr. White?

Mr. White.. In Virginia.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you here voluntarily today and with-

out subpoena?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you received a copy of the Committee

Rules and supporting resolution?

Mr. White. I have.

Mx. Goldsmith. Have you had a chance to read Committee

Rule Number 4?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that rule?

Mr. White. Yes sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do yu understand you have a right to

counsel?

Mr. White.. I do.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Do you waive that right?

Mr. White. I do.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. White, under the Committee Rules the

witness has a right to receive a copy of the deposition tran=-

script. However, by virtue of the arrangement that the

Committee has worked out with the Central Intelligence Agency

in situations where we are interviewing present or former

Agency employees, I have been requested to ask those witnesses

to waive the right actually

to receive a copy of the deposi-

tion statement.

The waiver goes only to the right to receive

a copy. We would naturally give you full access to review

the copy and to evaluate it for accuracy, what have you, and

eventually to sign it and verify it.

Mr. White. That would be my only concern.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are willing to waive the right to

receive a copy?

Mr. White. To have it, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. You are content simply to review it and

evaluate it for accuracy?

Mr. White. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. Have you had a chance to ead the letter

which is labeled J.F. K Doc ument 96837?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let the record note that correspondence

with JFK Exhibit 94 used at the Committee hearings, a letter

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from acting DCIA to the Chairman of the Committee. Do you

understand that letter?

Mr. White. Yes, I de.

Mr. Goldsmith. The mandate of this Committee is to

investigage the assassination of the President, to determine

whether or not there was a conspiracy, to evaluate the per-

formance of the investigative agencies including the Bureau,

the CIA, and finally to evaluate the performance of the

Warren Commission. Do you understand that?

Mr. White. Yes:

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you had any discussion with any

present or former Agency employees in reference to testimomy

that they may have given before this Committee?

MI. White. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you had any discussion or contact

with the Agency in reference to the testimony that you are

going to give here today?

Mr. White. Only as to my legal rights, not as to sub-

stance.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. White,, where were you employed in

1963?

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Mr. White.

As. of June 1963 I was Deputy Chief of the CIA

Station in Mexico City.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many years were you employed with the

CIA overall?

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Mr. White. From August 1946 until 31 July, 1976.

Mr. Goldsmith. I dirl not catch the first date. August

of what year?

Mr. White. August 1!46.

Mr. Goldsmith. For the record I will state I am staff

counsel for the Committee and I am designated to take this

deposition.

What were your resporsibilities as Deputy Chief of Statioh

in Mexico City?

Mr. White. My responsibilities were whatever the Chief

of Station decided to have: me do. I would like to be more

specific than that but it was a very peculiar relationship.

I honestly cannot be more specific than that. I was required

to keep myself up to date to the extent I was permitted on

everything that was going on.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did our work involved actualy contact

with agents?

Mr. White. Yes, it ilid.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did 'ou work involve. contact with the

various surveillance operitions that the Agency had?

Mr. White. No direc:, not direct, "önly through staff

personnel who were directy involved in it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you aware of the nature of the

surveillance operations tat were in effect?

Mr. White. . Yes, I wIS.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Who vas the Station Chief in Mexico City?

Mr. White. Winston icott.

Mr. Goldsmith. Can :ou give us your evaluation as to

his competence as Station Chief?

Mr. White. He had bren there for 13 years. He knew and

was known by anybody who ras of any importance in Mexico.

He

was left there by the Dirctor for that length of time. I

assume he was thought to le highly competent.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about the nature of the files

maintained by the Mexico l'ity Station? Were they thorough?

Mr. White. They werr incredible. They were exhaustive

and duplicative in every

conceivable way.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you were in Mexico City did you know

Herbert Manell?

Mr. White. I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was his responsibility?

Mr. White. He was Chief of the Soviet Operations Section

at the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about David Phillips?

Mr. White. David Ph: Ilips was Chief of the CA Section,

Covert Action Section.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did It. Phillips work at any time in

charge of the Cuban Opera ions?

MI. White.

In the litter part of his tour he was in

charge of Cuban Operation;.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Did ou know Bob Shaw?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was his responsibility?

Mr. White. He was Chief of the Cuban Operations as well

subsequent to David Phillips' departure.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did !ou know Ann Goodpasture?

Mr. White. I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. What were her responsibilities?

Mr. White. She was i Special Assistant to Win Scott and

her main responsibilitite: were to handle the surveillance

operations.

Mr. Goldsmith. By sirveillance operations do you mean

both the wire tap and the photosurveillance operations?

Mr. White.

Yes, I do. Principally the wire taps, how-

ever.": She did not have - well, she didn't have normal,

regular contact with the leople in the phto operation.

That was handled out of the Soviet Section.

Mr. Goldsmith. When you asy that she had responsibility

for the wiretap operations, was that for both the operations

against the Cuban and the Soviet Embassies?

Mr. White. Yes. Thit responsibility was shared, however!

She dealt with the outsidt: contract agent, who worked with the

Mexican security represeni tives who were actually manning the

phone taps.

Mr. Goldsmith. I ha'e a document here which is referred

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to as CIA Document Numbe:: 170 which was prepared by Ann

Goodpasture. I would lik: to have you look at it where it

says "Unilateral photo Soviets." It lists Ann Good pasture,

alternate CO and internal routing. Does that in any way help

you remember what her responsibilities were with regard to the

photo operation?

Mr. White.' I didn't arrive until June 1963. I don't

understand what this was. What was the purpose of these names?

Mr. Goldsmith. Appajently Ms. Goodpasture was asked to

complie a list of people :n the Mexico City Station and their

responsibilities. What you are looking at is that list.

Mr. White. I knew none of these people. If I knew them

at all I knew them by cryl'tonums or transcribers.

Mr. Goldsmith. Please don't concern yourself with the

other individuals.

Mr. White. Okay, a ist of unilateral photos, Soviets.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Ms. Good pasture's

responsibilities were with regard to the photo operations?

MI. White. As near is I can recollect she picked up the

film periodically from th agent who manned the photo.

Mr. Goldsmith: That was Mr. Sam Bernardi?

Mr. White.

No. He was a station technician. There was

an automatic camera set up across the street from the entrance

to the Soviet Embassy. We had agents living in there whom I

knew only by crytonym. I am not sure whether she met those

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people directly or whether Bob Bernardi, who had been the

Station Technician and then resigned in Mexico, who lived with

his Mexican

wife there, miy have done the direct picking up

and then passed them to her.

Mr. Goldsmith. What ibout Thomas Keenan. Do you know what

his responsibilities were:

Mr. White. Tom Keenin mainly handled the outside sur-

veillance team. That was his principal responsibility. He

did help. Annie with some of the pickup." Io what degree, I

really don't know. But his main responsibility was running

the unilateral surveillance team.

Mr. Goldsmith. That was the unilateral surveillance team

with regard to the photographs?

Mr. White. No, itmas for everything. It may have

included the photographs. This was a physical surveillance

team.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

For the record, I should say that is

consistent with the documint which Ms. Good pasture prepared,

CIA Number 170 lists Mr. "'homas Keenan as being both with the

unilateral taps and with he unilateral photosurveillance.

How many different t'pes of wiretap operations were in

effect in 1963.

Mr. White. • Types?

Mr. Goldsmith. My understanding is that there was a

unilateral operation and 1 liaison operation.

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Mr. White. That is ight.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was here any other operation?

Mr. White. Not tele; hone, to the best of my knowledge.

MI. Goldsmith. What phones did you focus on in regard

to the unilateral operatin?

• Mr. White. The uniliteral operations were -- they changed

all the time. The only ole who determined what they would be

was Win Scott. I have to say again to the best of my recollec

tion, that the unilateral taps were those that we felt we

could not discretely ask he Mexicans to do.

Mr. Goldsmith. The iaison operation was one that you

did jointly with the Mexi:ans?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turnng to the liaison operation against

the soviet compound, do you recall how many phones were being

tapped?

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Mr. White. You are inly concerned with the Soviet target

now?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

We will get to the Cuban later.

Mr. White. I honestly do not know numbers.

MI. Goldsmith: What abuot the Cuban operation?

Mr. White. I can't jive you numbers there either.

Mr. Goldsmith. Coull you give some sort of an estimate?

Mr. White. My recollection is that there was a total of

30 lines at any one time and that half of those were given

to

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the Mexican Government airl the other half were reserved to us.

The ones that were reserved to us the product was shared with

the Mexicans on almost al of them. I think where it wasn't

shared it was because the Mexicans didn't want to receive it.

I can't put my hands in the fire for the fact that all the

Soviet or all the Cuban tirgets were on the joint tap. I think

some of them may have beer: on the unilateral tap. So, I would!

have to ssy that there were probably more than -- well, the

Embassy itself, the Embas y phones were clearly joint.

Where home phones wee tapped there may have been some

unilateral, some phones that we kept only for ourselves...

There were because anything that was on the unilateral system

we did not share with, the Mexicans. I am trying to think how

many

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Mr. Goldsmith. Spec: fically liaison taps against the

Cuban target?

Mr. White. It is

aquess. Three or four maximum.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read CIA Number 160 through to

the end of the paragraph ilt the tope of the page of CIA

Number 162 starting where it says "Liaison: Coverage"?

Mr. White. May I as: what this document is?

Mr. Goldsnith. Certainly. That is an excerpt from the

Inspector General's repor: of 1977.

Mr. White.

All righ

Mr. Goldsmith. My f rst question is, does that refresh

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your memory in any way as to the'number of phones at the Cuban

Embassy that were being e ectronically tapped?

Mr. White. I see it says five. I would not have any

recollection of that because when we got the transcripts we

just got them in a batch nd I never paid any attention to

what came from what phone

The mechanics of this thing were

'not part of my responsibi.ity.

Mr. Goldsmith. I wait you to understand I was not ques-

tioning the accuracy of your earlier answer.

Mr. White. I got the 30 right anyway:

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, you did. I was not making any repre-

sentation as to the accur..oy of this particular document.

"Mr. White. I can't fault any part of it as far as I can

see. There are a couple of subjective remarks about Mexican

officers about being brutil and corrupt but you can say that

about a lot of Mexicans.

Mr. Goldsmith. This paragraph here in CIA Number 161 say$

that mid-1962 "The Mexical officer in charge of the LIENVOY

asked the American office: at LIENVOY listening, post for the

telephone numbers of the luban and satellite Embassies in.

anticipation of possible coverage. The station immediately

disconnected all of the unilateral telephone taps on these

Embassies so that they would not be discovered when the

Mexicans hooked up their taps."

I am sure you understand

that. Prior to mid-'62 was the

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liaison operation such thit both the Mexican and the Americans;

were jointly tapping the soviet, Cuban and satellite Embassies?

Mr. White. The impl cation here is that the Mexicans

were not but wanted to. You see, this thing did not get

started until

I apparently, according to this, until mid-1958.

There are a lot of mechan cal type bugs to work out of an

operation of that sort be ore it begins to function properly.

So, I have no reason to bulieve that the Mexicans were tapping.

It was before my time thee so I was only dimly aware

of what

we had been doing against the Soviets and satellites at that

time.

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That succession of erents would have been logical because

we kept. our unilateral ta's away from the Mexicans at all

times.

Mr. Goldsmith. What would the station have been working

on jointly with the Mexicins prior to 1962?

Mr. White. Probably communists.

Mr. Goldsmith. Indi ridual persons?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. As opposed to the Embassy Compound?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to the transcript that were

made of the conversations that were the subject of electronic

surveillance?

Mr. White. The transcripts came in several days after

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the conversation took plare. As I recall we got either the

following morning or the rext morning -- I am sorry, the

morning after the conversition took place or two mornings

later we got a summary of what had been said, depending upon

the interest, and that sumary was routed to specified officers

in the station. Not eversbody saw everything, as far as I

know, other than the people who processed the material like

Ann Goodpasture and maybe in her absence Tom Keenan, the people

who saw it were section chiefs and myself and of course the

station chief. Anybody wio wanted anything broken out further

would mark the passage, send a note to Annie or go to her

with it an- say "get a conplete transcription of this conver-

sation."

I always found the simmaries ample for my purposes.

Since I was not working ir detail with any of the operational

targets, since I had to kind of oversee all the operations

in the station it was seliom that I myself, asked to go back!.

for something. So to ansver your question with regard to tran-

scriptions, what was done with them, I can only say that if

they were in Russian they weould have to go back to Boris and

get him to run a complete transcription or if they were in

some other language we har. a Polish-Czechoslavakian to break

it down.

Mr. Goldsmith. It would take a few days from the time

conversation came in unti: the transcript came to the station?

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MI. White. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. Was inn Good pasture the person who

brought the transcript to the station?

Mr. White. I think ::o. The reason I am hesitating is

because I keep thinking that somebody out of the Soviet

Section, I think it was He:'b Manell's wife, who was handling

it, going back anf forthw.th Tarasoff.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was inn Good Pasture acting in a super-

visory capacity with regajd to the liaison operations?

Mr. White. That is very difficult to say. That is very

difficult to say. She cairied with her a lot of invisible.

authority that devolved upon her because of her operational

relationship with the Chitf of Station, who had absolute

confidence in her. She hid

a marvelous memory. She was

meticulous in detail. I think he had every reason to put

that kind of trust in her

She

reported directl! to him. While she may not have

been invested with any colmand authority by virtue of her

position at the station, vertainly she was

a kind of unofficial

deputy for the purposes o the operations that whe was involved

in.

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For example, we had his old ex-FBI guy on the outside

who worked with the Mexicins with the taps. When Ann spoke

to George Monroe and said something to him George knew damn

well it had the backing o: the Chief of Station. If he didn't

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he could go around and chick it out. By and large there wasn't

much question in George's mind that when Annie said "The

boss wants this", that it came from Win. To that extent she

has supervisory responsib lity.

Mr. Goldsmith. It wils more of an unofficial type respon-

sibility?

Mr. White. Yes. She was not in the hierarchy, let me

put it that way. Does thit make it clear?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. White. Okay.

Mr. Goldsmith. When the transcripts came in who would

be the first person that hey would be sent to?

Mr. White. Scott.

Mr. Goldsmith. Then Scott would route them to the

respective sections?

Mr. White. Yes. They came in in two or three copies,

I believe. She would seni them directly to him and he would

underline them for indexiig. It did not matter how many times

the name appeared it was inderlined for indexing. That is

why we had a room the size of the building for a card file.

Anyway, the other copy was then routed around to me and

to the various sections criefs.

Mr. Goldsmith. Afte: you people had reviewed these

copies the transcripts wold be stored?

Mr. White. Yes.

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Mr. Goldsmith. At the Mexico City Station?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would the transcripts be sent to

headquarters?

Mr. White.

When you are talking transcripts, I am

talking summaries.

we se dom saw transcripts. When I say

we, I seldome

saw transcr:.pts. Ilknow some of the section

chiefs did.: People working on the Soviet target would call

for transcripts occasionaly and I have seen them from time to

time.

But usually they were asked for in order to get the

flavor of a total conversition or to attempt to see if there

was any substance. to something that the summary had alludea

to.

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More often than not hey were then either filed.or

destroyed. If they were hought to be. of significance they

were sent home to Washing on. My feeling is that by and large

we did not clutter

up the mails back to Washington with a lot

of the detailed transcrip:ions.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were most of the trasncriptions summarized

and stored in Mexico City'

Mr. White. The summitries were, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about the transcripts? Do you know

about them?

Mr. White. No. I would have to defer to each section

chief on that.

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Mr. Goldsmith... Do you know whether there was any coordi-

nation between the wireta! operation and the photosurveillance

operation so that if, for example, one of the persons monitor-

Ing the wiretap came across an interesting conversation he

could in some way apprise the photosurveillance people that a

particular individual might be coming to the Embassy?.

Mr. White. To the best of my knowledge it was not. The

wiretap operation was concucted by a mexican and the photo-

surveillance was conducter as a unilateral operation. Anything

coming from the tap operation would have to come back from

the station and any directions would then have to go out --

Mr. Goldsmith. I am not suggesting that would have been

direct contact bwtween the: two.

Mr. White. Coordination certainly at the station end.

Mr. Goldsmith. So the wiretap people would contact some-

one at the station whose esponsibility it wouid then be to

contact in some way the plotosurveillance people?

MI. White. well, thuy didn't have to because the wiretap

people themselves were merhanics. All they did was process the

stuff. Now, that is not o say that maybe a conversation of

interest wasn't flagged fom time to time. In the main, the

interpretation of what wa:; said was the job of the case officer

around the station whö then would coordinate on directions to

the photographer.

By and large the camura was pretty much automatic. The

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principal thing they woul. have to do would be maybe to pick

up more often than usual :f they were interested in a visit

that was signaled in a te. ephone call.

Mr. Goldsmith. You ire saying that there wasn't any

procedure for the persons manning the liaison operation if

they came across a conversation that was particularly signifi-

cant, you are saying there was not procedure for them immed-

iately to contact someone at the station to approse the photo-

surveillance people of the fact that someone of interest might

be coming?

MI.. White. No, I colldn't say that because that would be

saying more than I know. I don't know that there was or was

not. I assume there were means of emergency contact but I

never got involved in that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did the people at the wiretap operation

even know that there was i photosurveillance operation?

Mr. White. Not to the best of my knowledge. Not to the

best of my knowledge. They certainly shouldn't have.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Do you know whether at the time of the

assassination the Mexico ity station had a tape recording of

Oswald's voice?

Mr. White. At the t me of the assassination?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. White. I do not.

Mr. Goldsmith. You lon't know one way of the other?

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Mr. White.

I do not. no. I tell you my problem frankly

is, and is one that I hav: always had a problem with, is

remembering things in the sequence that "they occurred.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the station ever had a tape

recording of Oswald's voire?

Mr. White. There wa:; a conversation that was picked up

-- I don't remember which tap it was now, I guess it was the

joint tap -- which referred to Oswald. My recollection is that

it was him talking to the Soviets and trying to make an

appointment with them.

Mr. Goldsmith. We w. ll show you those transcripts later

on.

How long would a tap routinely be retained?

Mr. White.

The tape:: themselves?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. White. I don't now that there was any routine figure

because we were always in need of tapes. There was always a

lot of pressure. Although these things were voice activated

they were running all the time. The machines were running 24

hours a day. So there wa: always a great deal of need for

tapes.

So as soon as they were judged to be no longer needed they

were erased and put back into the center again. I don't know,

two or three weeks maximun, I would aay. By that time cer-

tainly one would know whether in most cases the conversations

were needed of the tapes vere needed to back up the transcripts.

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MI. Goldsmith. Do you recall ever listening to tape

recordings of Oswald's voice?

Mr. White. I do not. Did I ever?

Mr. Goldsmith. My record does not indicate one way of

another.

I would like you now to look at CIA dumber 197, the

second paragraph.

Mr. White. Yes sir. This then is the second call?

Mr. Goldsmith: We w.ll go over the trasncript later-on.

Please don't worry about hat.

Mr. White. I was just trying to understand the paragraph.

Mr. Goldsmith. The juestion I have with regard to the

second paragraph is does. his suggest to you that at the time

of the assassination the station still had one tape recording

of

Oswald's voice or what they thought to be Oswald's voice?

Mr. White.

This one, maybe.

..

Mr. Goldsmith. You say this one, you ae referring to

the conversation of Septenber 28?

Mr. White. This whole thing is 28 September, that is

right.

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Mr. Goldsmith. That is right: I should point out for

your information that was actually the third call that has been

attributed to Oswald.

Mr. White. I don't snow what the second call was.

Mr. Goldsmith. There were a total of four calls, at least

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four calls, at least four calls any way. The questien I have

for you is in regard to the second paragraph. By the way

that paragraph is phrased does it suggest to you that at the

time of the assassination the station still had one tape of

Oswald's voice? In other words, that particular paragraph

does not say that all tapus of Oswald's voice have been erased?

All the phone calls with (swald's voice recorded came in

between September 27th and October Ist.

Mr. White. At the time of the assassination there was

still one recording with "swald's voice on it is your question?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. White. I couldn t get that out of this paragraph.

could not get. that out of this paragraph.. I don't know who

wrote that cable.

Mr. Goldsmith. Ann 'joodpasture.

Mr. White. I was going to say it sounds like Annie

Goodpasture cable.

I would not get that out of that paragraph necessarily.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let 1s look at CIA Number 208.

will you

read paragraph 4?

MI. White. That is farasoff, isn't it?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. Does that suggest to you thät after

the assassination Tarasoft dia a voice comparison?

Mr. White.

Not necessarily because he was kind of a

legend in the station beause of his -- he had been listening

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Soviet Branch continually told me was a marvelous gift for

being able: to analyze the voices.

He had a fantastic memory

for the voices that he heird over those lines, or he heard on

those tapes, I should say It would not surprise me at all

that he could say that from memory.

Mr. Goldsmith. Turning now to the photosurveillance

operation against the Cubin target, do you know what the scope

of the coverage was in teims of time? How many hours per day

were they taking pictures of the Cuban target?.

Mr. White.

I don't think I ever knew that. I don't

think I ever knew that.

Mr. Goldsmith. How lany years did you work in Mexico

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City?

Mr. White. Four. The usual practice was to start coverage

from the time the consulale target being covered opened until

the time it closed. I am not sure about the camera in the

Cuban Embassy but in the soviets Embassy that I was more

familiar with -

Mr. Goldsmith.. Let us talk about the Cuban first and

then we will get to the Russian one.

Mr. White. I can't inswer the question. I am not even

sure there was a photo optration against the Cuban Embassy at

that time.

Mr. Goldsmith.

What is your best recollection when there

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was

a photo operation against the Cubans?

Mr. White. That is right, there was one, but I can't

tell you the hours, I am sorry.

Mr. Goldsmith. What about with regard to the Soviet

target?

What were the hours of that photo operation?

Mr. White. From the time their office opened, which was

about 10 o'clock in the morning, until it closed. They

varied their closing times from 2 to 4 in the afternoon.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was there weekend coverage?

Mr. White. Normally not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why rot?

Mr. White. Because there was no traffic in and out of

the Embassy.

• Mr. Goldsmith. What was the purpose of the phtosurveil-

lance operation? By that. I mean what targets were you trying

to obtain pictures of?

Mr. White.

Persons (f operational interest who would

visit the Soviet Embassy really, regardless of rationality.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that those individuals:

would visit the Embassy or a weekend?

Mr. White. It is

possible that they might have. This

decision was made before ny arrival down there and was based

on a considerable experierce of almost total inactivity on

weekends.

So any weekend coverage would have been pretty

unempressive I think. Mo:t meetings I think were conducted

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with individual officers, either at their homes or meeting

places around the city.

MI. Goldsmith. How horough was the coverage when the

camera was in operation?

Mr. White. Allowing for minor outages,

as you always

suffer in those mechanica! operations, it was pretty thorough

during the working hours.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall how long it took for the

photograph to arrive at tie station? In other words, from

the time the picture was aken, how many days

would it take

for it to arrive at the sation?

Mr. White. Film, I hink the photographs were processed

in the station, I am not sure. I think it was about every

three days. It depended on the traffic in the Embassy because;

when the film was used up then a meeting would be set up.

There were also normal rotine pickup types which I think were

twice a week, I am not suce.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did shey ever adopt the practice of send-

ing the film to the station at the end of every working day:

to cut down on the delay time?

Mr. White. I can't say for sure but it would not surprise

me after the assassination if that had been done for a while.

Mr. Goldsmith. But efore the assassination?

Mr. White. I don't relieve so.. That could have been

arranged at the behest of either the station chief or the chief

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of facility section.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did he Mexico City station ever öbtain

a photograph of Oswald?

Mr. White. Through hat operation?

Mr. Goldsmith. Throigh any surveillance operation?

Mr. White.. Not that I know of.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether a woman named

Charlotte Bustos ever fould a photograph of Oswald at CIA

headguarters?

Mr. White. I know Carlotte Bustos but I don't know what

she was in CIA for. She vas up there and I was in Mexico.

Mr. Goldsmith. You lever heard a

story

after the assassi

nation she was looking for a file at headquarters and found a

photograph of Oswald that had been taken by the surveillance

operation in Mexico City?

Mx. White. I never eard that story, no.

Mr. Goldsmith. What would be the procedure for contact-

ing headquarters with information? In other words, how is

information communicated to headquarters?

MI. White. By cable or by dispatch.

Mr. Goldsmith. What would be: the criterion deciding

whether to send something by cable or dispatch?

Mr. Whiate. The normal criterion would be the urgency

attached to that information, the perishability of the infor-

mation, not its importance necessarily. The perishability

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was the criterion.

Mr. Goldsmith. What do you mean by perishability?

Mr. White. If it was something that concerned an event

that was going to happen in the next two or three days you did

not want to use a medium which was going to take a week to get.

to Washington.

Mr. Goldsmith. Then you would and a cable?

Mr. White. Sure.

Mr. Goldsmith. When did the name Lee Harvey Oswald first

come to your attention?

Mr. White. Obviousl! during this cable 'exchange sometime

but I can't give you a dae.

I can't relate it to a particular

date.

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MI. Goldsmith. Was "swald's contact at the Embassies

in Mexico City considered to be important?

Mr. White. At the time it first occurred?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. White. I would have to conclude that it wasn't

recognized as anything ex:raordinary at the time it first

occurried.

MI. Goldsmith. Why lo you conclude that?

Mr. White. Because lad it been, it would have been pulled

out and sent to Washingto, either with a complete. transcription,

a complete excerpt out of the transcription, of the entire tape

and transcript would have been sent to washington by the first

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available pouch, probably by special courier.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does the fact that Mexico City station

sent to headquarters a cable reporting Oswald's contact

suggest that the station considered the contact to be important?

Mr. White. I can't l'emem-er when that cable was.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let us take a look at that now.

Mr. White. If that was before the assassination or after

Mr. Goldsmith. Let is take a look at that cable now.

Mr. White. All right:.

Mr. Goldsmith. Plea::e read CIA Number 178.

Mr. White. You are sking what is the significance of

the cable?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. White. Well, opirational, that is all. Her is an

American citizen, at leas: a man who appeared to be an American

citzen, speaking broken Rissian and in contact with the

Embassy. This is of oper tional interest. This is the kind

of information that we wer directed among others, to get back

to Washington because the passed htat kian of thing to the

Bureau.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were contacts by Americans with the Soviet

Embassy considered to be musual?

Mr. White. Well, we were 1963 then. They were considered

worthy of note, let me pu= it that way. Of course, from an

operational point of view we were looking for any way we could

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exploit a contact with the Soviet Embassy.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were

such contacts by Americans frequent?

Mr. White. Not terribly frequent.

Not terribly fregeunt.

There were members of the American exile colony in Mexico City

who were in kind of reoutine

contact with the Soviets, usually

on cultural matters. No, I would say they were relatively

infrequent. That is why .-

Mr. Goldsmith. -- the cable was sent?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. I reilize that the cable does not say that

is

a photograph of the person mentioned in paragraph 1 but

the cable suggests thät this may be a photograph of the person

mentioned in paragraph 1?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how that photograph was linked

tò: the person mentiöned?

Mr. White.

By date. It was taken entering the Soviet

Embassy and leaving on thr same date this conversation. took

place. I remember that poceeding because we were combing.

through the takes of that day to determine any person who

looked like an American mile. I believe this was the only onei.

Mr. Goldsmith. So the first paragraph indicates there

was a telephone conversat.on?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr.. Goldsmith. And by virtue of that reference to the

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telephone conversation yo1 would have gone to look for the

photograph on October lst'

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did ou at that time look through the

photograph take from othe:: days, in other words, before and

after October lst?

Mr. White.. I

didn't I couldn't say.

Mr. Goldsmith, Were you involved at all in looking

for this particular photo raph?

Mr. White. No. I wis involved in looking at it once::

that had been isolated:

Mr. Goldsmith. You iust said you could recall the pro-

ceeding where there was a search for this photograph?

Mr. White. Yes, I di remember that and of course later

events made that time staid out a lot more.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who vere the people involved in the review

of the photograph take, tying to find a photograph of Oswala?

Mr. White.

Bear in mind this is the date of 8 October.

This was perfectly routin:, nothing to get excited about on

that day.. Here is an apprent American, fine. Now it becomes

a little bit of an exercise, a little bit of a game to see if

we can match a photograph with that telephone call. That is

all it was.

Mr. Goldsmith. I unierstand.

Mr. White. The person involved would have been the

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analyst, probably the ana yst of the Soviet Section of which

Herbert Manell's wife was one.

Mr. Goldsmith. Anyone else?

Mr. White. I can't remember whether Cynthia Houseman was

there at that time. I dor't think she was there at that time.

I don't think she had comt: yet. I know she hadn't. Herb

and his wife and one youn, male case officer.

That would have

been it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is il: your testimony that you think this

photograph was selected br cause on that day that was the

only individual who could be identified as an American?

Mr. White.

Who appeired to be an American. I don't know

what time the telephone conversation was.. But the time of the

telephone conversation ma! have had something to do with the

eliminating other possible: American appearing pepole on

photographs that day. I don't remember whether there were.

Mr. Goldsmith. The iming of the conversation would not

have anything to do reall! with the time that persons were

were at the Embassy, esperially since the conversation did not

say "I am coming over."

Mr. White. No, the conversation did not say he was coming

over, so let us scratch that qualification.

Mr. Goldsmith. Will you take a look now at CIA Number

177 which is the headquar ers copy of that cable? I hve one

question about that document. I am pointing to where someone

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wrote in D: 200-5-41: Do you know what that means?

Mr. White. That is the file reference. That is where

it was to be filed:

• Mr. Goldsmith. To which type of file does that refer?

Mr. White. That is the, subject file, 200-5 but I don't

know, I never dealt with he Mexico Desk files at headquarters

so I don't know how they broke that down.

Mr.. Goldsmith. Let is examine some of these transcripts

now. Will you please rear! CIA Number 13, which is a tran-

script of a conversation :hat took place on October 1, 1963.

Mr. White. Okay.

MI. Goldsmith. When was the first time that you saw this

transcript, if you have ever seen it before?

Mr. White. t: I doil't know. I really don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall if you saw this transcript

before the assassination?

Mr. White. I could lave, I could have but not necessarily.

If I did it was just part of my routine reading. Some days I

had time to read this stu:f, somedays i didin't.

Mx. Goldsmith.. Do you know whether this transsript was

the one which prompted the cable to be sent to headquarters

supporting Oswald's contast with the Soviets?

Mr. White. That first cable we saw was 1 October?

MI. Goldsmith.. Yes. The cable was dated 8 October büt

it referred to a contact on l October.

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Mr. White. Very likely.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, in this cable the transcriber

indicates the same

person phoned a day or so ago and spoke

in broken Russian. Then he person identified as Oswald

says

"I was here last Saturday at your place." Do you recall whether

upon reviewing this transcript and checking the photo produc-

tion take whether the ind: viduals: doing that check went back

as far as the preceding Sturday?

Mr. White. I would lave to assume that they did. : As I

said, I don't think there was any photo coverage on the week-

ends. Have you found pho: coverage on weekends? Am I wrong

about that?

Mr. Goldsmith. I reilly can't answer that.. The Committee

rules prohibit me from discussing that kind of matter.

Now, will you please read CIA Numbers 14 and 15?

Mr. White. Okay. Wiat is the question?

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you read 15 also?

Mr. White. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. That is the transcription.

MI. White. All right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever seen that transcript before,

the transcript from the conversation involving Oswald?

Although Oswald is not identified by name it was linked to

Oswald, and the date of it is September 29, 1963.

Mr. White.

I very likely have.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Do yu know when this transcript was

linked to Oswald? By that I mean do you know if it was linked

to Oswald prior to the assassination?

Mr. White. I do not know that, no. I wouldn't know it

becausé it wouldn't have lad any significance in the station

before the assassination except perhaps in an operational

context or counterintelligence context when they were trying

to find out who this guy vas.

Mr. Goldsmith.

I hare the same question for you in regard

to two other transcripts. They appear starting on CIA Number

16 through the CIA Number 18. Please read them and my question

is have you seen them befere and when were the transcripts

linked to Oswald?

Mr. White. All right. You asked the same question?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.'

Mr. White. I don't now when that first came to my

attention. Undoubtedly alter the assassmination. I would not

have formally concerned miself with this in a routine operation.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know at what point your subordinates

would have linked those cunversations to Oswald?

Mr. White. At what point they would have linked?

Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, prior to the assassination

or after the assassination?

Mr. White. They werr vesy bright people. I assume they

would have had Oswald at east as one possibility and probably

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the most likely possibili:y as being the speaker to whom

Sylvia Duran was referrin; in her conversation with the Soviets.

So, probably before the assassination.

MI. Goldsmith. Did 'ou have personal knowledge prior to

the assassination that Oswald had been to both the Cuban and

the Russians Embassies?

Mr. White. I don't hink so. Unless I read this conver-

sation but, as I said, it would not have registered on me.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let 'is take a look at CIA Number 183.

Would you please read tha: cable?

MI. White. Yes sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. When would win Scott have put those

marginal notations in?

Mr. White. As he reid it probably.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, turning to the marginal notation on

the left where it says "sic" and underlines and points to the

word Henry. Do you know why win Scott would have written "sic"

Henry Oswald?

Mr. White. If that is what that is. Is it "sic"?

another.

Mr. Goldsmith. I do not want to influence you one way of

We have had tes imony previously that that is "sic"

Mr. White. Then it nay well be.

Mr. Goldsmith. The term "sic" is commonly used to point

out that there is a error made.

Mr. White. It would have had to have been äfter the

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assassination or after it became apparent that the person we

were all interested in wa:; Lee Harvey Oswald. I say that

because it is perfectly Ingical to me because Win had the

files right on his desk e'eryday for the Oswald investigation.

Mr. Goldsmith:: Thi:; is after the assassination?

Mr. White. Yes, aftur the asassination. He would have

been perusing them contin iously.

Mr. Goldsmith. Now, this paragraph contains a more

accurate description -- I am pointing to the first paragraph,

- contains a more accura:e description of Oswald, does it

not?

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Mr. White. Than wha:?

MI. Goldsmith. Than the description contained in the

•cable & October from the lexico City station to headguarters?

Mr. White. Because they were not the same guy. This

was Oswald and the other

juy wasn't.

Mr. Goldsmith. Once this cable was received was the

station aware that the person they had referred to in the first

cable was in all likelihood not Oswald?

Mr. White. I think so. I would think so. I have to

repeat again at this point in time this guy was nothing other

than of reoutine coun-erintelligence interest, you see.

Mr. Goldsmith. I understand. Woudl you read paragraph

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MI. White. I did.

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Mr. Goldsmith. It asks for further information to be

sent to headguarters repoiting any contact for positive

identification. Do you krow if the Mexico City station ever

sent any additional inforation to headguarters on Oswald?

For example, did they evel indicate to headquarters that

Oswald had been to the Culian Embassy as well as to the Soviet

Embassy

and that he wanter! a visa?

Mr. White. I would lave to assume that they did. I

realize that "assume" is i bad word.

MI. Goldsmith. You son't have personal knowledge one way

or another?

Mr. White. No, prio:: to the assassination I would not.

Mr. Goldsmith. CIA lumber 181 is the headquarters copy

of the 1/10 cab le from hradquarters to Mexico City which

was just reviewed. I notr: in the bottom left hand corner that

Thomas Karamessines was ruleasing officer. Why would someone

that high in the organiza ion be the releasing officer on a

cable like this?

Mr. White. Can I reid the first page?

Mr. Goldsmith. Certainly.

Mr. White. The reason would have been -- I don't know

what the ground rules at the DO level were at that time but

the reason would have been in all likelihood that any cable

concerning the attention :o coverage of an American overseas

would require the knowledje and approval of the DDP.

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Mr. Goldsmith. What would be the reason for that?

Mr. White. The question of CIA involvement on the

coverage of Americans. Ilis was a very goosey matter, even

then. As you can see it involved coordination with the FBI and

State and Immigration and so forth.

Mr. Goldsmith. That was my next question. Why would

this information have beer passed

along to these many agencies?

In other words, why was the dissemination so wide?

Mr. White. You woul have to ask Tomm Karamessines.

I can't answer that question. That depends on agreements that

were valid at the time between agencies. I would have no

knowledge of that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Aftel the Mexico City station received

the cable from headguarter's which gave the background on

Oswald. and indicated that Oswald had been a defector to the

Soviet Union, to your knowledge did that in any way enhance

the importances of Oswald s contact with the Soviet Embassy?

Mr. White. Oh, yes, sure, it did. The fact that he had

that kind of background. Sure, he became someone of con-

siderable operational interest. Again, there was nothing

other than operational in erest.

MI. Goldsmith. In a l likelihood that cable would have

prompted the people at t-: station to go back and look at the

earlier transcript?

Mr. White. Yes, I would think so.

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Mr. Goldsmith. And ilso to look for the photograph?

Mr. White. I would think so.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Do you know whether prior to the assassi

nation tere was any additional action by the Mexico City

station in reference to the Oswald case?

Mr. White. Other thin analytical action and probably

reviewing files to determine whether there was anything else

that. they might dig out or him and tie to him as a result of

those phone calls.. I am rot

aware -- I really couldn't say.

Mr. Goldsmith.

If Oswald had been an agent of the KGB,

would headquarters have notified you of that?

Mr. White.. If they had known it they certainly would

have. You don't normally expect an agent of the KGB to be

turning up in broad daylight at the main gate of the Embassy

or telephoning around tow.

Mr. Goldsmith. If Oswald had been an agent of the CIA,

hypothetically now, would the cable from headquarters have

indicated that to you?

Mi. White. Well, we would like to hope it would have

but it needn't necessaril! have.

Mr. Goldsmith. They might have let the Mexico City

station just proceed to e aluate and analyze the Oswald case

without giving them that : nformation?

Mr. White. That is ilways a possibility in the intelli-

gence world. The principil need to know applies pretty widely,

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you know..

Mr. Goldsmith. Afte: the assassination what was the :

scene in Mexico City? By that I mean what was the atmosphere?

Mr. White. Crisis. The effort to run down clues on the

Oswald thing took priorit! over anything else.

Mr. Goldsmith. How lany people were sending cables back

and forth between the station and headquarters?

Mr. White. Well, thr: Cuban Section was originating

cables concerning Cuban involvement. The Soviet Section was

sending cables concerning the Soviet involvement. Win Scott

was sending back "think" pieces.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is "think" pieces?

Mr. White. His own inalysis of what probably happened.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did ou ever see any of those think

pieces?

MI. White. I probaby did. I say this was happening.

It was typical of the kind of thing that happens. All I am

saying is that anybody why, had a piece of the pie was origi-

nating traffic on it. They

all funneled through Win.

Mr. Goldsmith. The raffic did not go out simultaneously

each section would have originated the cable and eventually

it would have gone to Sco:t, who would send the cable to

Washington?

Mr. White. That is ight. Neither can one assume that

the cables went out in the same sequence that the events with

which they dealt occurred.

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Mr. Goldsmith. I uncerstand. Io your knowledge was

Mr. Scott upset at the failure of the Mexico City.

station to

obtain a photograph of Os ald during his visit to Mexico.

City?

Mr. White. Win was i very flegmatic fellow. He occa-

sionally blew his top but normally you didn't know when he

was upset by something. sure, I think we were all concerned

that we didn't have any specific identifiable photograph of

Oswald. I cannot recall the specific reaction at the time,

but I am pretty sure that it would have had to do with our

inability to keep the cam ra going 24 hours a day, seven days

a week.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall if, the coverage was modi-

fied after the assassinat:.on?

Mr. White. I don't :ecall that it was but it probably

was, for a while anyway. In fact. it. could have been even

before, I don't know, as 1 result of this Washington cable

that showed Washington wa; concerned.

It seems to me that the photographic circumstances were

rather bad.

There was one guy and his wife who manned that

camera. They were in a little confined space. I can't

remember whether they had kids or not, a child. But there is

a question, it was partially a question of pressure on them,

too. '

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Mr. Goldsmith. We could establish by reviewing the trans-

cript that Oswald visited the Embassies

a total of at least

four times and possibly as many as six times. In fact the IGR

states he may have visitel as many as six times.

Mr. White.. What is IGR?

Mr. Goldsmith. Inspector General's Report. Do you

think that it is unusual that Oswald having made six visits

to the Embassy would still manage to avoid being photographed?

In other words, the Station went o for 6 on Oswald.

Mr. White. You say that the transcript indicates that he

visited the Embassy as may as six times?

Mr. Goldsmith.. We san go over the transcript piece by

piece and you would see tat if you make the appropriate infer-

ences he went to the Embassy five times. For example, the

con-

versation on September 27 between Oswald at the Cuban Embassy

and the Soviet Embassy, he says -- he is clearly at the Soviet

Embassy

and he indicates "I was there," he clearly at the Cuban

Embassy says "I was there," at the Soviet Embassy earlier.

That is two days.

I he next day, the ?8th, he is calling again from one.

Embassy to another and he says "I will be right over. I was

there earlier and I am coming back again." There is three times.

We have five times in twe days. My recollection is that the

Inspector General's report indicates he was there six times

although. I don't know what basis they had for saying that.

In

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any event if he was there five or six times -- my question

is not directed toward criticism of the Agency - 1 am won-

dering in light of the fat he went there five or six times.

that it is likely that a shotograph was taken of him.

Mr. White. I think he answer to your first question is

yes, it would seen to be nost unlikely that he could go there

five or six times and escipe being photographed if he did it

during normal hours. Is here anything in the transcript that

would indicate that all tiese visits were during normal working

hours?

Mr. Goldsmith. Three of the visits wluld have been on a

Saturday. One of the other visits would have been late in the

afternoon, Friday afternon, abaut four o'clock.. The earlier

one on Friday, you can't :ell by looking at the transcript

what time he had been there.

Mr. White. Then we could possibly eliminate four of those

visits, three on Saturday and the one at four o'clock if the

Consulate was closed. I lo longer remember what hours the

Consulate kept. I do remember that we were always in light

mood saying how great it vould be to work for the soviet

Embassy because they only seem to work about two hours a day.

So that would have lift only once or maybe twice when

we should have

gotten him and didn't. I just don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let is take a look at CIA No. 197.

The reason for showing yor this at this time is that this

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reports Oswald's contact if 28 September, 1963.

Is that

correct?

Mr. White.

Yes. An! this is 23 November. This had

previously been sent, had it not?

Mr.. Goldsmith. No. This was the first time that that

was being sent.

Mr. White. Really?

Mr.. Goldsmith. To hradguarters.

Mr. White. What was the date of that last sable from

headguarters that said send everything?

Mr. Goldsmith. : That was dated October 10 or .1l.

Mr. White. It wasn': until the 23rd that this thing came?

Mr. Goldsmith. That is right.

Mr. White. Wow.. I in sorry, your question was?

Mr. Goldsmith. My only question was this cable reports

the contact of September 18, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. White. Yes. This is the one you asked me about before

with respect to paragraph. 2?

Mx. Goldsmith. That is right.

In paragraph 2 it maies reference to Oswald's October lst

contact, is that correct?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. Let is turn to CIA No. 202, which is a

cable. Would you read pa:agraph 6 of that cable.

Mr. White. Do you mind if I read the rest in order to

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get it in context?

Mr: Goldsmith. Sure.

Mr. White. Okay.

Mr. Goldsmith. Parajraph 6 indicates "other than infor-

mation already sent re Osvald's connection with Soviet and

Cuban embassies no other nformation available." My question

is, it seems that the onl! information sent so far was on the

September 28 contact and he October I contact, and there were

two contacts on September 27. Do you know why headguarters

wasn't told about those o her contacts at that time?

Mr. White: No, I doll't. Somebody must have simply.

overlooked them. I tell ou the volume of paper that was being

handled by a small number of people just boggles the mind.

Win was a very fast reade:: and a couple of other people were.

But the processing of all this detailed paper was a terrible

time-consuming affair. I can only explain it that it must have

gotten lost in the furor «'f processing what was deemed to be

higher priority stuff. I was going to say did it not emerge

later that during this corbing of all available materials that

they overlooked those two days?

Mr. Goldsmith. Late on headquarters was apprised of the

September 27 contact. Whi, sent out this cable?

Mr. White. Herb Mant 11 and it was released by win Scott.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who is the authenticating officer?

Mr. White. That is (HG. That is Manell.

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Mr. Goldsmith. What is above Manell?

Mr. White. Those are the initials GHG. It is G. H.

Gestetner. The same as G.H.G. here. But that Rybat is a

sensitive indicator. It was not at all unusual in cases

that were regarded as sen;itive that the originating officer

would send them just to the Station Chief for release.

Mr.. Goldsmith. Pleas: look at CIA No. 225.

Mr. White. Okay.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did 'ou write that cable?

Mi. White. I had to. I am sure.

Mr. Goldsmith. My giestion is, that cable indicates that

Oswald's only known contast was the 9-28 contact with the Cubah

Embassy?

Mr. White. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. At tie time you sent that cable were you

aware that. Oswald had als, visited the Soviet Embassy?

Mr. White. I was no=. I clearly was not aware. I don't

even know why I wrote that, how I got into the business of

writing the cale. What lay was the 23rd of November?

Mr. Goldsmith. It was a Saturday.

Mr. White. That may be why .

Mr. Goldsmith. What do you mean, that may be why?

Mr. White. There was an outstanding requirement on

photos left over from the day before and somebody wasn't in

from the Soviet Section to bounce it off of.

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MI. Goldsmith. Are "'ou saying on that day you would

have checked with anyone hat was available and perhaps the

Soviet people were not arjund?

Mr. White.

That is what I am saying.

Mr. Goldsmith. Woulin't you think on the 23rd of Novem-

ber, the date after the Pesident had been killed, everyone ini

the Station would have been around?

Mr. White. Yes. It really doesn't make sense. As I

recall it was about noon, Mexico time, was it not?

Mr. Goldsmith. When what?

Mr.. White. When he vas killed. What time of the day?

I remember I was in the. cir

-

Mr. Goldsmith. He

wils killed at approximately 12:30

central standard time. I don't know how that relates to Mexican

time.

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Mr. White. I think ve were an hour off.

MI. Goldsmith. This cable was sent the day

after the

assassination.

Mr: White. The 23r1 of November?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr.. White. In other words, why didn't I know what the

Station knew before this is what you are asking?

Mr. Goldsmith. Righ=.

MI. White. I can't explain it. I can't explain it except

either I had not seen all

the traffic -- I assume I should

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have before I wrote this.

Mr. Goldsmith. Afte: the assassination did the Mexico

City Station

• conduct an investigation into Oswald's activities

while he was in Mexico?

Mr. White. Yes, we lad a continuously ongoing search of

files and all possible sources that we thought would contri-

bute.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Who vas connected with the investigation

in Mexico City, thefFBI o: the CIA?

Mr. White. I had no knowledge of what the FBI was doing,

only what the

Station was doing.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did. he Station contact its sources?

Did it contact sources o: assets to find out what Oswald's

visits with the Embassy may have been about?

Mr. White. We certainly contacted any sources that we

thought would have anythiig to contribute. The funny thing

about this cable is that here are no signatures on it. I

don't understand why it dies not have any signatures on it.

Mr. Goldsmith. Does the cable normally have signatures

on it?

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Mr. White. Sure. I see, this was the headquarter's

copy.

Mr. Goldsmith. There is nothing unusual about the cable

itself?

Mr. White. No.

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48..

MI. Goldsmith. When did you first realize that Oswald

had been to both embassies? Do you recall?

Mr. White: No, I do not. It must have been soon after

this though.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did the CIA investigate Sylvia Duran

after the assassination?

Mr. White. What do jou mean by investigate Sulvia Duran?

MI:: Goldsmith. Did you talk to any of her associates?

Did you interview her?

Mr. White. I can!'t remember who was

in charge of the Cuban

Section at that time.

Mr. Goldsmith. Dave Philipps.

Mr. White. It would have been someone in his shop who

would have done it if it lad been done. I believe she was

interviewed.

Mr. Goldsmith. At ole point the CIA headquarters cabled

theStation and indicated that headquarters did not want to have

duran arrested by the Mexican. Do you know why that instruc-

tion would have been sent to the Station?

Mr. White. No, offhind I couldn't say.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that

Oswald may have been a KG agent?

Mr. White. I have no reason to believe. You can always

speculate. I don't beliere so. If he was he was a very poor

one the way. he handled hinself.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have reason to believe he worked

in some capacity for the cIA?

MI. White. I have no reason to believe that.

MI. Goldsmith.. Do you know what the term CI/SIG stands

for?

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MI. White. Special ntelligence.

Mr. Goldsmith.. Of the Counterintelligence

Mr. White. -- staf:.

Mr.. Goldsmith. What was the work of the CI/SIG unit?

units.

Mx. White. I don't linow. They had a couple of special

One of them dealt with very sensitive operations. I he

CI Staff was strictly a piper-pushing out-it. They had one or

two branches or groups.

"IG was one which did engage in actual

physical contact operatiois, agent operations.

Mr. Goldsmith. Would it have been unusual for CI/SIG

to have been the group thit opened up Oswald's 201 file?

Mr. White. Initiall'?

Mr.. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. White. I can't inswer that. I don't know what was

usual or unusual for them. The CI Staff was a highly unusual

outfit.

Mr. Goldsmith. Woull it have been standard CIA procedurei

for an Agency employee to have interviewed or debriefed

Oswald upon his return frm the Soviet Union to the United

States?

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Mr. White. It depens on what was known about him at

the

time. If he were a scurity suspect it would have been

unusual. The Bureau wou d have done it at our behest. The

Bureau would have done it routinely anyway. But if he

were a

routine visitor to the Soviet Union we might have done it through

our Overt Division.

Mr. Goldsmith. That is the distinction you would draw.

If Oswald had been a secuity suspect of sone kina it would

have been the Bureau's joi). If he were a visitor or a business-

man, then CIA may have dole it?

Mr. White. Yes, but through one of its overt domestic

contacts.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is a 201 file?

Mr. White. A 201 file is a biographic file that contains

information about one pe:son.

Mr. Goldsmith. Woull a 201 file indicate whether or not

a person was

an agent, asset, source of the CIA?

MI. White. Yes, mos: likely. But there were other kinds

of 201 files. The 201 file would not necessarily deal only

with people who were agen=s.

Mr. Goldsmith. What other kinds would there be?

Mr. White. Anyone of whom -- let us say we had liaison

with a German police formation. We would have 201 files

on the principal officers with whom we dealt. All the infor-

mation about that individial would go into that 201 file.

ALCERSO ! REPORTS COMPANY. INC.

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Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying then that the mere fact

that à 201 file exists does not necessarily mean that the per-

son for whom the file has been taken out was an asset, agent

or source of the Agency?

Mr. White. Yes, that is what I am saying.

MI. Goldsmith. Would a 201 file be opened on someone if

he were perceived as a count erintelligence threat?

Mr. White. It could be.

Mr. Goldsmith. If in fact someone were an agent for the

CIA would that automatically be noted in the 201 file?

Mr. White. Not necessarily. Actually it would be in

the 201 file, in the case of an agent would be a sort of barel

biographic data. All operations data would be in the opera-

tions file.

Mr. Goläsmith. It is possible that the 201 file would

indicate the Agency relationship but it is also possible that

it would not?

MI. White. Yes. It would be kind of hard if a m an were

an agent for there not to be some hint in there that he was.

It might not have specifics. A 201 file was really a file

designed to enable Agency namecheck procedures to be conducted

and be accurate but not recessarily reveal to unauthorized

members of the Agency thit there was an operational relation-

ship with that person. Im I making the distinction clear?

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, I understana.

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If you wanted to fini out what operations that a par-

ticular agent had been involved in how would you go about get-

ting that information?

Mr. White. The agen: has a cryptonym. The cryptonyms

in a case file would he b:oken down into four parts. The

first part of which is the biographic information. That would!

be the 201. The second part would.

l be the administrative

information. The third part would be operations and the

fourth part would be prodiction. In part three there would

ordinarily be a monthly progress report or at least a quarterly

progress report on that operation would be summarized in that.

Mr. Goldsmith. For each agent there would be an opera-

tional file you could turn to?

Mr. White. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. You would not have to know the name of

every operation that the agent was involved in in advance and

go to that particular operatkons file? You could just go to

the operations file for that particular agent and it would

list the information.

Mr. White. It should list all the cryptonyms and all the

operations he was involved in.

Mr. Goldsmith. Are you certain of that.

Mr. White. I am certain that is the way it was meant to

be. I am certain it was not always done that way.

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine procedure that is

the way it is done?

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Mr. White. Or was done.

Mr. Goldsmith. You jeft in 1976?

Mr. White. I left oferations in '70.

Mr. Goldsmith. What did you do between '70 and '76?

Mr. White. I was in training and I was head of the Anti-

terrorist Group.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the Agency.

ever. con-

sidered recruiting Oswald:

Mr. White. No, I celtain do not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Oswald had any contact

with Agency personnel whie he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. White. I do not know that either.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you ever interviewed by anyone

from

the Inspector General's ofice concerning the surveillance

operations in Mexico City:

Mr. White. When?

Mr. Goldsmith.

Dur: ng 1963. Let me rephrase the ques-

tion. Were you ever inte: viewed by anyone from the Inspector

General's office concerning the surveillance operations in

Mexico City during the tine that Oswald was there?

Mr. White. Not to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever been interviewed by the

Inspector General's Offic: in regard to any matter?

MI. White. Oh, yes. Sure, they used to make

routine.

inspections of Stations aid so forth and I am sure I have been!.

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Mr. Goldsmith. If they had asked you questions about

Oswald in Mexico City wou d you have remembered that?

Mr. White. Gee, I don't know. That is a kind of funny

question. If they asked lie questions would I remember?

Mr. Goldsmith. The e-son I ask is that your answer to

my question was

"no, not :o the best of my recollection." I

guess I am looking for a nore definite answer.

Mr. White. I would ike to be able to give it to you.

If they did interview me t must be a matter of record. I

would rather say I can't emember than make a stao at it. and

give you a wrong answer because your work must be difficult

enough without trying to jet

people to back up on statements

they have already made "will, it says here in the record."

Mr. Göldsmith. Did 'ou

ever know a CIA officer named

Maurice Bishop?

Mr. White. Is that lis real name?

Mr. Goldsmith.. I don't know.

Mr. White. I don't hink I ever knew anyone under

that name.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Dave Philipps ever

used that as an operational

alias?

Mr. White. I don't snow if he ever did or not.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever use any operational aliases?

Mr. White. Yes.

MI. Goldsmith. How nany would you use?

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Mr: White.

As few as possible because you can trip

yourself up that way very easily.

Mr. Goldsmith. It would be very unusual for a case officer

over a period of years le: us say to have used hunüreds of

operational aliases?

Mr. White. Hundreds?

I would term it most unusual.

Mr. Goldsmith. For he reason you stated, it would be

tough to remember which ole you used with whom?

Mr. White... Exactly.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is your opinion as to the manner

in which the Agency handled the Oswald case prior to the

assassination?

Mr. White.,

Prior to the assassination?

MI. Goldsmith. Yes.

MI. White. From wha: I knew about it I would say they

handled it in about the way that was to be expected, gave it

about the degree of impor :ance that it merited.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did leadquarters ever criticize the

Agency for not having a protograph of Oswald?

Mr. White.

The Station?"

Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.

Mr. White. They may have. That really would have been

the spilt milk department wouldn't it? So it would not have

made much

sense to use the communications chanrel for that.

I would have expected, if it were a criticism, if it did come

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as a criticism, to come more in a personal letter to win or

during one of his visits to. Washington.

Mr. Goldsmith. Woulr. he have told you about that?

Mr. White. He might have. He might not have. He was

a strange guy.

MI. Goldsmith. Do you recall one way or another whether

headgaurters ever did cri icize the Station?

Mr. White. I don't emember any criticism for that.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is your opinion of the manner in

which the Station conducted itself after the assassination?

Mr. White. Everybody was flat out, I tell ylu that, doing

whatever it was he was doing to take care of his part of the

affair. Whatever role had been assigned him to play, every-

body was doing it without any regard to hours of: work or

anything else. That went on for a number of weeks. The

recollection that I retain is one of continuously grinding out

the same material over aid over again saying it in different

ways. I can honestly sa! that I have never, since leaving the

Mexico City Station, reruad any of those files until this materia

I have seen today.

A lot of stuff has seen superimposed on my memory of those

events. The principal fict that concerned me was that, yes,

we did get transcripts o: Oswald's telephone calls and, no,

we did not isolate a photograph of him and that was a damn

shame, but I personally san't fault anybody in the station

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for what he did or didn't do with respect to that investi-

gation.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Did you or anyone else at the Station

have knowledge of the CIA's anti-Castro. assassination plots?

Mr. White. No. I can only speak for myself. I don't

know what knowledge other people had. It was not discussed

with me.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. white, I would like to thankiyou

very much for being here today. You ha-e been very patient.

You have been generous with your time. Customarily the com-

mittee gives the witness who appears before us at a hearing

the opportunity to make a statement.. Although this is not

a hearing if you would like to make a statement at this time,

feel

free.':

Mr. White. I don't have any statement I would like to

make on the record. Let me say that I apologize for my faulty

memory. I wish it weren't that way but it always has been.

It must be frustrating fcr you.. Perhaps I am not the first bad

memory you have encountered.

Mr. Goldsmith. Thark you. Let me state the entire record

•of this deposition will be transcribed. You will be given an

opportunity to review it, will be asked to sign it and to

verify it. The court reporter will be requested to certify

that the transcript is a complete, accurate and true record

IH 48331. DocId: 32277217 Page 60

of all the testinony given.

, Mr. White.

So you will want me down here again?

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Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, simply to read through the testi-

mony. We will do whatever: we can to accommodate you in terms

of

your time constraints.

Mr. White. All right..

Mr. Goldsmith. You sould waive that if you want to but

I would want

to put it on the record.

Mr. White. I won't lave any chance to amend anything?

Mr. Goldsmith. You von't have an opportunity to amend.

You will have an opportun: ty to correct. However, if upon

reviewing the deposition ou would like to make an additional

statement I would certainy give you that opportunity.

Mr. White. It might not be a bad idea. Inevitably I am

going to be thinking now ibout what we have been talking about.

It is possible that there might be some more light along the

line.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why don't you get in touch with us when the

transcript. is completed?

Mr. White. All righ:.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m. the taking of the deposition

was concluded.

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59

I have read the foregoing pages

1 through 58, inclusive, which

contain a correct transcript of

the answers made by me

to the

questions therein recorded.

Signature is subject to

corrections.

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(Deponent's signature_

I,

, Notary Public in and for the

•District of Columbia, do lereby certify that I am notarizing

and witnessing signature or the Deposition of Mr. Alan B.

White on this

day of_

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Notary Public in and for the

District of Columbia

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CERTIFICAT OF NOTARY PUBLIC

I, Alfred Joseph LaFrance, the officer before whom

the foregoing deposition vas taken, do hereby certify that

the witness whose testimoly appears in the foregoing deposition

was duly sworn by me; tha: the testimony of said witness was

taken by me in shorthand o the best of my ability and there-

after reduced to typewritng under my direction, that said

deposition is a true reco:d of the testimony given by said

witness; that I am neithe: counsel for, related to, nor

employed by any of the pa:ties to the action in which this

deposition was taken; and further that I am not a relative or

employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties

thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the out-

come of the

action.

Notary Public in and for

the District of Columbia

is ends:

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My Commission expires November 14, 1980.

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