Originator: SSCIA
From: RICHARD, ERIC
Document date: 07/25/1975
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

157-10014-10188

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Date:

7/7/2015

Agency Information

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER :

RECORD SERIES :

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

SSCIA

157-10014-10188

MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTEE

07-M-93

Document Information

ORIGINATOR :

FROM:

TO :

TITLE:

SSCIA

RICHARD, ERIC

DATE: 07/25/1975

PAGES:

4

SUBJECTS :

CIA

WATCH LIST

NSA

DOCUMENT TYPE: SUMMARY

CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret

RESTRICTIONS: 1C

CURRENT STATUS:

Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW :

03/22/2000

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

v9.1

7095J

DocId: 32423576

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## Page 2

Date:

08/07/95

Page :

1

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER

: 157-10014-10188

RECORDS

:MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTEE

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 07-M-93

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR

FROM

TO

TITLE

DATE

PAGES

SUBJECTS

: SSCIA

RICHARD, ERIC

07/25/75

:

4

:

NSA

WATCH LIST

CIA

DOCUMENT TYPE : SUMMARY

CLASSIFICATION

: TOP SECRET

RESTRICTIONS

: REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS

: POSTPONED IN

FULL

DATE OF LAST REVIEW

01/19/99

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS :

[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED

HW 50955

DocId: 32423576

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## Page 3

INTERVIEW AND MEETING SUMMARY

Page

1

of

R1283

FILE:

INTERVIEW WITH:

Mabel Hoover and Ervan Kuhnke.

Office of Security, CIA

DATE-TIME-LOCATION: Offices of the Committee on

July 25, 1975 at 10:00 AM

PRESENT: Hoover, Kuhnke, and Eric Richard (SSC)

INVENTORIED:

ON_

15/14/22

The main purpose of this interview was

EY.

originally to speak with Hoover, who from November

1960 until June 1973 worked full time at the

National Security Agency in the files maintained

by the part of that organization known as C-5.

However, since she was accompanied by her immediate

superior, Kuhnke, who has been her supervisor since

1970, he was also asked and responded to a number

of questions.

Hoover stated that her job at NSA had been to

conduct name checks using the biographic files.

From 1960 to 1964, Hoover was on the payroll of

DDP, now DDO, of the CIA.

Specifically, she was

employed by Staff (now Division) D.

1964,

Hoover was

to the payroll of the Office

of Security.

in the 1960-1964 period she

spent about half her time doing work for DDP and about

half for the Office of Security.

After 1964, she spent

most of her time doing Office of Security work, but did

occasionally handle a request from DDP. The work done for

DDP was a

Both before and after 1964, Hoover was

occasionally asked to compile biographic information

on U.s. citizens.

She was never given the reasons

why the information was needed.

Occasionally, these

lists would include more than just names: they

would specifically ask for information concerning

United States.

Before 1964, Hoover's immediate superior was

at first one Frances Sherman, who has since married

and no longer is employed by

Later in the pre-

1964 period, Sherman was replaced by one Daniel J.B.

working

and who

until 1970, Hoover's

superior was one Adele Iulianna

(spelling uncertain). In 1970 Kuhnke took over.

Hoover stated that when she first began work

for CIA at NSA, three other CIA personnel were already

working there.

In 1964, this number was reduced to

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INTERVIEW AND MEETING SUMMARY

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4

one (Hoover). Hoover did not know the reason

why the number of personnel working at NSA had been

reduced, but

stated that she had been told that it

was because

"there were now other means of doing the

same operation at CIA."

Hoover stated that she had totally free access

to all the C-5 files, except for a couple of

cabinets that were kept locked.

She recalled these

as relating

; to movements of East Germans,

and to

mainland Chinese matters.

However, Hoover stated

that the key to these files would usually be left

lying around in an

ashtray, or otherwise be available

on an informal basis.

simply had to tell someone

she was going to use

FILE:

NSA exercised absolutely no supervision over

Hoover's access to, or use of the information in,

the biographic files.

The information that she

retrieved was sent back to CIA by armed courier.

No one at NSA cleared its release before it left

NSA.

Hoover stated that no one even asked her why

she needed any particular information. The materials

sent out to ClA by Hoover might consist of copies,

summaries, or just reference to document numbers

appearing

on documents in the biographic files.

Hoover also

prepared short biographies in her own words on the

asis of the intormation she retrieved

Hoover was asked whether she remembered seeing

any FBI documents in the biographic files.

She

said that she did, and that these were generally

reports on individuals. However, she did not think

that they included any arrest records.

Hoover seemed to have an astonishingly good

memory of the names that she had checked, once

specitic possibilitles were suggested to her.

She

seemed to have no doubt whatsoever that she had

conducted checks on the following names:

1.

Stokley Carmichael

William Sloane Coffin

3. Rennie Davis

4. Jerry Rubin

5. Abe Hoffman

6.

Leslie Bacon ( and persons associated with her)

7.

Sirhan Sirhan

8. James Earl Ray

9.

Benjamin Spock

10. Roy Wilkins

11. Whitney Young

i made did ai eddies

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IVIERVIEW AND MEETING SUMARY

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or 4

12. Ramsey Clark

13. George Wallace

14. George McGovern

15. Bishop James Pike

Hoover had no memory of ever checking the

names of the following individuals:

1. Lee Harvey Oswald

2. Richard Nixon

3. Frank Church

4. Howard Baker

Hoover stated that occasionally she was also

asked to conduct checks on organizations.

specifically remembered conducting checks on CORE

and SDS.

She doesn't think she ever did a check

on the Black Panther Party.

Hoover and Kuhnke were then asked whether,

to their knowledge,

any information taken from the

biographic files at NSA had ever been supplied to

any person involved with operation CHAOS at the CIA.

Hoover stated that she did not know what operation

CHAOS was.

Kuhnke stated that he did know

the general nature of this operation.

He stated

that he could not give a definite yes or no as to

whether this information had been supplied to

that

operation, but that he "wouldn't be surprised" if

it had.

He stated that he did not believe that any

research at NSA had specifically been initiated

because of operation CHAOS, but he believed that

he Counterintelligence Staft at NSA, which was

responsible for operation CHAOS, had

levied certain

requests

on the Office of Security at CIA for

information as to particular individuals.

In

supplying this information,

probably also

supplied

the

the Office of Security

information

it had

received from

NSA.

Kuhnke stated that shortly after he had

taken over in 1910, he began to feel that the

biographic files at NSA were not a valuable resourde

and he therefore issued informal instructions to

his staff that they should no longer bother using

them.

what procedures were to be used in checking parti-

cular names. He believe it was highly possible that

some of the supervisors continued to ask for

information

from NSA.

FILE:

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INTERVIEW AND MEETING SUMMARY

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et sad ted cates led

Hoover and Kuhnke were asked why the CIA had

not decided to take NSA's US files when it took over

the rest of the central

information function for

the intelligence community. Hoover and Kuhnke said

they had participated in a meeting between various

persons from CIA and Robert Tracy and another person

from NSA, where the conclusion was reached that these

files were simply not of much value.

Since CIA itselt

was cramped for

storage space, CIA decided not to

take these Illes. Kuhnke stated, however,

that CIA

would have made room for them if they hand't been

so old and basically

useless.

Hoover said that she

had been told "It was too much sand to sift for the

Kuhnke then stated that after these files

Had been offered to the office of security at GIA,

she li tha

they were offered to Division D.

He said that it

was his understanding that Division D had refused

the files for the same reasons as the Office of

Security.

FILE:

Both Hoover and Kuhnke both stated that absolutely

no information from NSA's files had ever been supplied

to any agency outside CIA.

They said that this would

have violated the third agency rule.

WATCH LIST

Hoover stated that she had been asked "a couple.

of times" by someone at CIA, whose name she could

not remember, whether she knew anything about a

watch list at NSA.

In fact,

Hoover said that she spoke with Robert Tracy of

C-5, and Tracy told her whom

she should call to

put the name on a watch list.

However, Hoover cannot

remember who the person was that she was told to call

perational side of NSA

never heard of project MINARET, but that she had

heard about NSA watch lists while working in DDP.

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