NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPT, REEL #2.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/26/1965
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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SE JULY 1945

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Reel # 2

26 July 1305

((Reels #1 and #2 "overlap"))

TRANSLATION

B. SAVCICHKO (A SAVCIENKO) ((vas)) Chairman of the KGB in Mondavi?.

((the :loldavian SSR)).

He was in Moldavia.

A. You are certain.

B. Yes, absolutely.

A. You know his first name (irya):

B. No, I do not remember.

I know . ( (he is a)) general.

SAVCHENKO - he was in Moldavia.

He was, ((ra1t)) one minute, SAVCHENKO was after BERIYA; SAVCHENKO

was at one time Deputy ((Minister)), here, after BERIYA, he was a

Deputy ((Minister)) for us ((WVD)) .

A. Where:

B. In the WVD, in the MVD, the WIVD, he was a Deputy ((Minister)).

And, to my thinking, there even was some period, when SERor came,

he was under SEROV, and then he removed him and he was for many

years, in recent years he has worked all of the time in Moldavia, as

Chairman of the XGB ((there)), yes.

A. You know this exactly:

aunts

B. Yes; that SAVCHENKO has been in Moldavia all these years, exactly.

APPROVED FOR RELEASE 1994

CLA HISTORICAL DEMEN FOOGRAM

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A. Let us suppose that there was still another (yeshche odia) SAYCHENO.

I. Preciscly this SAVCilENO, tho at one time was Chief of the First

Directorate, Chairan of the KGP in oldavia.

And I do not now any other SAcilario.

A. Do you know sone other SAVCIIENKO:

B. I do not know.

I think that this is that one wo at one tine vas in the Ukraine

((the Virainian SSR)), a illnister.

A. Now ve are talking about that one who was in the Ukraine and that one

who was chief of Intelligence, and so forth.

B. This one; he is in Moldavia, until recently (do poslednego vrenent)

in Moldavia.

•A. I simply an asking, in a friendly way, are you certain of this or not.

B. It is precisely this SAVCHENKO ((whom)) I have in mind.

A. I now am asking: Is there another SAVCHENKO there.

:

B. I do not know, I do not know.

....

A. Have you ever heard of another Lt Gen (General-leytenant) SAYCHENKO?

B. I not (ne)... this one vio. ((is)) in Moldavia, Chairman of the KGB.

A.

I simply an asking, have you ever heard of another It Gen SAVCHENKO:

B. I do not know.

I do not remember.

A. Let us assune that the SAVCHENKO who was chief of Intelligence and.

≤ SEGRET

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Moldavia, ((that)) his true first name (nastoyashcheye inya) ((1s))

Sergey Ronanovich....

B. I do not know.

A.

...Licutenant General....

B. Lleutenant General....

A. All the trouble ((is)) in the following, you understand - you

already have repeated (povtoryayete) this several times and

you

say that he was Minister in the Ukraine, and so forth.

You know that in lioldavia, the Minister for State Security or the

Chairnan of the Comittee for State Security, in your time and now -

to the present day - 1s (sidit), or, in any case, last year, was:

Lt Gen SAVCHENKO, Ivan Tikhonovich.

B. (1G) ... SAVCHENKO, what his first name ((15)) I do not know.

But I do not know his first name.

A. You see, I want to say, when you are not certain or do not know....

B. ((Interrupts)) So, but nore I do not know the first name; I am

saying, SAVCIENKO....

A. You say that that SAVCILMNKO who previously was in the Ukraine ((and) )

then was chief of Intelligence, now he is Minister in Moldavia....

B. In Moldavia, yes, this one.

A. But I want to tell you that there is another Lt Gen ((SAVCHENKO)) and

not this SAVCHENKO, but ((another)) SAVCHENKO; I have given (nazval)

you both correct first names; in Moldavia, the Chairman of the KGB

whom you know as this one, the other SAVCHENKO, whose name ((ls))

Ivan Tikhonovich, tho also at one time was a KGB employee and at

-SEGRET

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Terefore, I an asiiing you ether you have beard sonethiny interesting;

with regard....

B. ((Interrupts)) SAYCiaNKO - that is the last nase (familiga), and

that is what I said.

A. The question is (stoit) in the following: that - you see - it is

hard to believe that a person - as they say - who worled there ll

jears either tries to say that he does not know sonething or tants

to show that he knows.

B. No, vhat I know, I tell, only shat. I know.

A. Betricen us, the SAVCHDNiO mo tas in the Ukraine, in Intelligence

and so forth and so forth, Sergey Romanovich, everyone (vse sobal1)

in the whole world inows hi.

B. Well, tell ((ne, 1f it 15)) no secret.

A. Everyone also knows that SAVCHENSO whon you do not know - or wish

to say that you do not know . because his nane is everywhere in the

newspapers, without any cover; the questior is (stoit). in the

following: that, you understand, if you do not snow that happened

with the SAVCHENKO who ras chief of Intelligence, etc., lf you do

not know that it is precisely he in Moldavia, then please do not

say....

B. ((Interrupts)) I am telling you what I know, as (kal) I know.

Why do you pose the question so.

150165,397

A. I pose the question so, because there are two SAYCHENKOS, and

((it was)) not that SAVCHENKO of vhom you speak that was in Moldavia,

but quite another, and I want to pin down (podvesti) here that you as

an employee of ll years must know the other, tho also is a lleutenant

general, (fand)) why you do not know his.

-SECRET

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15.

1 0O DOL KROM 5018.

I heard the last nane (fanillya), and ((that is)) a11.

A. II you have heard this last nane (faniliya), then you must have

heard the last nane (faniliya) of that one a hundred tines nore.

B. Maybe I did hear ((1t)), but I do not inow.

I am telling you that I do not inow and that neither one of (ni odin

1z) the SAVCHEilOs ever was my chief, ever.

A. He stood closer, closer to the Second Chief Directorate than this one.

B. Not one of sy, of these SIVCIlElOs was ny chief.

ly chief was FEDOTOV, SIUBYAKOV, GRILANOV; I an saying ((that))

these ((vere)) the big chiefs.

A. I do not thin! that you are trying to understand me well.

B. I am trying to understand you well.

How is this - I am not trying to understand you well:

It 1s in my interests (Eto v molih interesal:h).

A. I am trying to explain to you that if you, as an enployee who worked

((there)) for 11 years, know the SAVCHENKO tho was in the Ukraine,

who was chief of Intelligence, who then found hinself with neither

business nor position, what happened to him, then you näne him,

^=.

((say)) that be ((is a)) Minister in Moldavia.

I an telling you - and this ((is)) established by the facts, even

Soviet newspapers, including the names, etc. etc....

B. Of course.

Deputies

are elected, there ((are)) Soviets (tam sovety) ...

A. .. Another person, but not this person.

My question: What do you know happened to the SAYCHENKO who was

chief of Intelligence:

SECRET

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I know, as I told you, that there was a SAVCHENKO... in the KGB,.

the LIVD, that there was a SAVCHENKO, the naze SAYCHENKO, General

SAVCHENKO was chief of Intelligence and then SAVCHINKO, before this

SAVCHNIKO, supposedly, ras, toll, & Minister in the traine, that

this SAVCIENKO ((is)) Chairnan of the KGB in Moldavia.

That is all I know about SAYClENKO.

Which SAVCHENKO: !

A. You made this cor:lusion yoursolf, or you knew ((this)) when you

were vorking.

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, when I was working, I knew; here I heard a

little bit, here a little bit of something.

•A. From there (1G) .

Because each person, Soviet, tho works in intelligence, in counter-

intelligence, especially in recent times, he knows the difference

exactly and he knows both SAVCHENKOs from top to bottom (kak

obluplennyye).

B. I think not (Ya ne dumayu), because....

A. Both of them are lieutenant generals, both are lieutenant generals,

both are connected with intelligence and counterintelligence.

So, the question is (stoit): either you were there and must know

exactly, or you were not there and do not know.

B. I said what I know.

A. He will say this: that I am saying what I koow....

B. 0f course....

A. I certainly am not trying to contradict the facts, to tell you

something superfluous of to wing out something unusual; I au saying

SECRET

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B. In fact, facts.

And I an telling you that I did not know this....

((XG = A and B speak at the sane tine))

A.

...To explain these facts articulately.

B. You may (nozhete) know millions of other things which I do not inow.

But I know nillions of things wich you do not !:now.

Hell, what do you rant fron me.

A. Tell ((ne)), please, that a person - if he had worked ll years,

InOWS GOGLIDZE, MASLENVIKOY....

B. ((Interrupts)) I heard.

I do not know, I do not know, but I have heard the name.

A.

... Must Know SAVCHENKO, Ivan Tikhonovich, also.

Working in the Second Chief Directorate, even if you did not wilte

any kind of reports (( letters" - pis'na)) to him, probably some

kind of papers

(bunagl) came from him every wees.

I do not want to tell you....

B. ((Interrupts)) ((I did not see any)) papers over SAVCHENKO's

signature (za podpis' yu SAVCHENKO) .

A. If you did not see ((such papers)), then again there is (stoit) a

big question: were you there at this time:

The whole question lies in

this . ....

I am not trying to go into sonething deeply (zalazit' kuda-to gluboko);

I simply an taking those persons and figues tho are so outstanding

(sotoryye prosto s nog sshibatel'nyy) ((that)) one cannot be mis-

taken; a person who....

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although ((Ge both are speaking)) Russian.

Me are talkin? in two different lanquages.

You want de to understand, you rant me to jo ly the sane nethod of

thought as you do.

I cannot; I an going as I can.

That which I have here ((D points to his head)), that which I

renember, that which I know.

A. Let us rcturn again to onc suall question.

You affirned (utverzhdayete), only several minutes ago, ((that))

having gone to work in the MIGB or the MVD in March 1953, you reccived

for some tize (nekotoroye vrenya) a basic pay (oilad) of 1,700 rubles,

plus, ((for)) rank - 500 rubles.

I do not rant to accuse you of lying or of lies or of something cise,

but all of this contradicts the facts.

In the KGB - on, the WVD, at that time - they already were not

receiving ((pay)) for ranis in March, and therefore you could not have

received money ((ikh: den'si)) for rant when you started work (postupil:

B. I know that they did not receive ((pay)) for rank for a year (v

techeniye goda)

and ((then)) they began to receive ((Pay)) for rank

again, and ((that 1s)) all.

Wen, what dates, I do not remember.

A. Understand ((me)); this is no explanation: "When, what dates, I do.

not remember...."

B. ((Angrily)) But I cannot give you ((the dates)).

And if I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A: Nowyou have said that you do not know.

Five minutes ago....

B. ((Interrupts)) I said that they gave ((pay)) for rank, then they

stopped giving ((pay)) for ink, and then again it was returned

(vernulos' ) anew:

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were not paying ((for rank)).

They already were not pajing.

B. Nell, then, they did not pay for a year, and then they began again

to pay for rani.

A. You told ne that you received 1,700 ((rubles)), plus 500 for rani.

I aslied you three times: "Are you certain."

Ycs.

Exactly.

B. Of course, I am certain... later ((they began to give)) me again

1,700 and 500..

A. He are not talking of later, now.

I an saying that in llarch you began work and you told me that your

¿irst pay was, as a case officer, 1,700, plus 500, for rank.

In Narch and April, etc. - I do not want to say until when - they

were not paying ((for ranl:)).

B. . But how strange you are (No, kakoy zhe Vy strannyy)!

But I do not vant to deceive you - I received ((pay)) for rank,

they receive 1,700 for position (za dolzhnost') and 500 for rank;

((walt)) one minute; I az not deceiving you, 1,700 for rank as a

case officer, that is, 1,700 for position, basic pay; 500 - ((for))

rank (pogony).

For a period of about a year I did not receive this 500 for rank;

I received only the 1,700 plus longevity pay (vysluzhnyye) - this

longevity (vysluzhnyye) ((pay)), secrecy ((pay)), and so forth.

I have no intention of deceiving you.

A. We were saying that you started (postupill) in March and immediately

they paid you 1,700; I as not posing a question about this money;

1,700 rubles was the basic pay of a case officer.

SEME

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It was and is.

A. True.

It was; and, at one tine, they were paying for ran':.

They paid

a licutcnant

600; everyone knows this; and ((they did so))

in the Arny, also.

B. For a senior ((licutenant)), 600.

•This ((ras)) usual (Eto ka: obychno), yes, yes.

A. But the question is (stoit) ((in that)): they already •ere not

paying ((for rank)) in March.

B. But, you see, you... such hooks you put out (taliye kryucholl stavite).

A. This is not a hook....

B. ((Interrupts)) It is a hoo:.

A.

...It is a fact which, you understand, you could in no way get around.

B.: But the important fact is ((only)) in that they did not pay me for

rank for a year and ((then)) again ((paid me)) 1,700, 500 and

longevity pay (vysluchnyye).

Well, but when, what, well, I do not remember.

A. In any case, a person . if he really came fron the Nary, where he

received...

B. ((Interrupts)) there, for rank, yes....

A. ...And now he had come here, perhaps his ((pay)) for position ((1s))

higher, but he will remember very well ((that)) they do not pay hin

for rank.

→ SECRE

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you nor your colleagues before you, here are questions "(visca))

sonchor ((are)) not shat you want, to se such questions....

((XG - 1 and & speak at the sane tine))

...Fell, I did not even pay attention to money.

You asked ne - ((wait)) one minute, excuse ue - you asked ne: but

you asked ne how nuch is (budet) the basic pay (oklad).

I said: no.

Why:

A. I did not as!: nore.

B. No, ((walt)) one minute, buy why.

And do you inow why.

Because at that time It was not (ne stoyal) a question of money.

At that time, it was not important (( did not play a rolc" - roll no

igral)) for ne.

A. I certainly an not posing a question about noney.

Whether it was or was not important.

I asked you two or three times and you repeated.

B. 1,700, 500, plus ((pay for)) secrecy, there, etc.

A. If you began (postupili) in larch you could not have received (fpay))

for rank.

B. Well, then... well, if they were not giving it from the time (s

momenta) of STALIN's death, then I began to receive ((1t)) alter a

year.

For a year they did not pay it.

1,700, 500 and ((pay for)) secrecy, longevity.

A. Let us say so!

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everything you reyng looks 11ke the cattle tr

to make sense and truth out of your statements)).

B. Yes, and I ((an trying)) to say only the truth (eye).

A. Ah, you are trying.

B. Hell, I an trying.

A. It does not turn out that way; they stoppod paying aut only aiter

STALI%, but at some other tine.

You, having orised there, must know this.

One can in no way disregard this.

I certainly do not deny the fact, we will not speal. with exactitude

(tochno), ((of)) how nuch they were paying and to whon for secrecy,

for language, for longevity, etc.

It is not so important; a person can forget, ((whether)) they paid

him 10 or 15% and some kind of increnent (nadbavia) for language,

for secrecy or for longevity, etc.; but then they took away ((the

pay)) for rani - so - this is very sensitive (chuvstvitel'no).

B. For the officer it was very sensitive and very important....

((XG - A and B speak at the sane time))

A. For you, this, you say that this had no significance; O.K., so;

but for the ordinary nortal officer, you know, if a person is a

colonel, this right aray....

в. 1,300....

A.

1,300 rubles.

B. Of course; with longevity ((pay)) (s vysluzhnyml)....

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"I'" VEn" longevIty "(pay)).....

B.

...This then rurs to 1,600... Fell, 1,600.

A. Therefore, for ((this)) one reason only, I have posed this question.

B. I do not renember shen.

I tell you that they paid ne 1,700 as a case officer, 500 - fOr

ranl:.

lias it a year.

In the beginning, a year, whether at the end of 1053 or the beginning

of 1951, but perhaps you are right, from tie beginning of 1953,

right fron the sonent, for approxinately a year they were not paying

for rani.

Then again they began to pay for rani. ((Pauses))

look, you are building on this sone kind of (1G) that I did not

exactly say this, this.

A. Tell, you see, they do not forget such things...

In this question ((there ls)) no exactaoss, because I am trying to

get at only the fact itself: you said that shen you went to work

you received ((pay)) for rank, but at this time they were not paying

((for rank)).

I can in no way understand how you could have received ((it)).

That is my question (Vot moy vopros).

I think that this, such a simple...:

B. For a year (Na protyazhenii goda) I did not receive ((pay)) for rank

((Laughs)); the rest ((of the tine)), I received ((it)).

When did I not receive ((it))?

I do not remenber.

But all ((personnel)) did not receive ((It)), not only I.

A. The same question.

of course, In connon life ((and)) work, perhaps it is not so

Important about SAYCHENKO.

la, doe..

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for you - ho, as is said, forked there - ((to know that there are))

two sAvciekos is the sane, everyone inous, it is the same as knowing

GRIDANUY - the sanc, the same.

B.

((In a 10w voice)) No.

:A.

Absolutely the sane.

B. ((In a low voice)) No.

A. And you, when you are talking about one and you nalie a mistake - let

us say, you nistake the name and so forth, you do not know another,

but you do not know another - it is in no way possible to believe

that a person wno had worked ((there)) Il jears would not know,

because he also ((i.e., the other SAVCiENiO)) is a lieutenant general

and a big wheel (bol'shaya shishka).

One can in no way disregard ((this)).

B. Excuse me; may I tell you one thing: I began to work, I came as

a case officer, I vorked (rabotayu) as a case officer in 1953, 1954,

1955, 1956, and - excuse me for the vulgar expression - I needed

to know SAYCHENKO, Marshal TIlOSHENKO and someone ((else, like them))

as I needed to know my ass (me do zhopy bylo SAVCHENKO...) ((1.e.,

it was absolutely unnecessary)).

For me, I came, I began (nachinayu) to vork.

Later, later, I became deputy chief of a section (otdeleniye); vhen

(8:)); from 1958, it was important for me here to vhom, in waat

name, to write a paper (bumagu pisat'), to whom, something else.

But working as a rank and file employee, for me it was, ah....

A.

I agree.

That you had no great interest....

B. Yes, and not only ((no great)) interest; even....

"ell, It vas remote (nedosyagayeno).

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## Page 18

td-nnon

Inaccessible (nedosyagayemo).

1. The probles is in that he of thon you are speaking is not ((there)),

but the one (tot) who is vorking there 25 years and who is there

today you do not know.

This is the problem (Vot, v chen vopros).

You understand.

Recause if you vere porting there, you would tell se now cactly

what the second SAVCHENKO did and, innediately, the difference

between then, because everyone (kazhdaya sobaka) knows.

B. I know one SAYCHENKO, to ay thinking, this is ((the only)) one,

perhaps, perhaps I an istaisen here ((when)) I give you the positions

(dolzhnosti) in which both worked, perhaps.

A. ((1n English)) No, nо.

They both vere working all of the time in different ((positions) )

and ((in English)) no connections.

Of course, by way of woris there were ((in English)) connections,

but this SAVCIaNO of saon I ain speaking had, had nore business with

the Second Chief Directorate than with the First.

We will return to this in due time.

B. Good.

As you wish.

if..

A. I want, I want now (kak raz) ....

B. ((Interrupts)) I did not write to anyone, I did not read papers

over the signature of SAVCHANKO....

One minute, one minute, one minute, one minute....

A. ((Tries to speak, but B interrupts))

B. May ((I)) say?

-SE

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## Page 19

A. Yes.

B. ((le is thinkinr, hard.)) I thin: ((that)) under (u) SEROV, UD30r

Ivan SEROV, a deputy ras... SAVCiaco... ((he thinks again))

SAVCILITO.

Well, you understand, it did not hagpen that I (ne prikhodilos' ene)

associated ((with hia)).

I do not know, I do not inow, I do not inor, I do not ronenher, I

do not remenber.

I an afraid to say anythia? (Pojus' chto-to siarat'); I do not

rencater.

I do not vant ((to)).

A. You sec, this question ((1s)) so -- as it tere - sinple, when

everyone (kachdaya sobaia) nows these to people, especially in

the KGB, beginning fros the saall ((1.c., lovly)) and up to the

great; they have becniori.ing (ratotayut) there a long time now,

and they have the same naues - only different ((first nanes and))

patronynics; they have the sane ran'. (avaniga), they have the sane

rank.

And, of course, when you as a person, you have come here, etc., and

you talis about one - let us say, they made a mistale, they put

simply SAVCHENKO in this place, where the other ((15)); but, not

knoring about the other - it certainly is almost iupossible to

believe that you worked there such a long tine, ll years.

Because without knowing this person (bez znaniya etogo chelovesa),

it is in no way possible.

Fini reian end sad

... $

B. Well, I do not know.

I am telling you what I know.

( (That 1s)) all.

A. He was not under sone kind of great (vellkaya) cover at that (y svoye).

SECRE

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## Page 20

A. ...Tiue he ras... In the Coatral Comittee of the Communist Party

of the Soviet Union (Isi KPSS), which everyone also knew there, and

he cane here, ((were)) also everyone knew hin.

How, he is the Chairnan of the KGB of the Moldavian SSR.

In any cvent, he vas ((there)), a year ago, as far as we know.

B. He has boen (sidit) there in Moldavia nany years.

And it is thourht (schitayetsya) that he soon will leave.

ile ((is)) in such a trap (zagon), a trap (!l.c., he has been "stuck

away" or "pigeon-holed")).

fell, (Vot, vot), he nust ((50)) on pension.

A. You are saying this about your (o svoyen) SAVCHENKO; I an taliing....

B. About the Moldavian.

A. About the loldavian, of whon I am spealing, but not that une of thom

you are speal: ing....

B. But I do not know the first name, patronymic.

SAYCHENKO, General SAVCHENKO.

A. .. And therefore it is rather difficult to say ((rhether he ls)) in

a trap or not in a trap; perhaps that SAVCHENKO tho vas in intelligence

is in a tray, or maybe they threw him out long ago.

You must know better about this.

B. I have in mind the Moldavian ( (SAVCHENKO)) .

A. I have in mind that one who was in Intelligence and was in the

But that SAYCHENKO, of whos you know absolutely nothing - he ((is))

Chairnan in Moldavia, but not that one of whon you were speaking in

the beginning and several times later.

- SECRET

testers

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## Page 21

those people to fere talzing with you, when It 1s known as

certainty, it is 100o clear as in broad daylight that it 1s not

that SAVCIEO, but the other you do not know; it is hard to belleve

that you yourself vere there.

((in English)) You see.

5. Well, see, see.

I an saying ((it)) as I renenber and that which I now.

A. I an trying to see and to find a connor language so that you begin

nore or less to speal. nore plausibly, but, ve taie one question,

another question, ((and)) there ((appear)) snall, but in sone cases

quite large, nistakes which one cannot in any way believe.

I want to repeat this thing again - you told me straight out that

you received ((pay)) for rank then they did not pay for rank at

this tine.

How can I belleve that you were there at this tine.

B. Ha, ha, ha, ha; you know, in general, you are a fine fellow, telling

jokes (anekdoty rasslazyvat')....

But why, for mat:

You do not know wen I was there or was not there; well, you are

saying funny things; well, really, we are grown nen (vzroslyye lyudl).

I do not know.

Fiell, ((if)) you do not believe, then you do not believe me.

"fri

Thy, then, tali with me; way, then, tall with me, in general, and

drag this out (tyanut' etu lyanku) ((men)) once you do not believe

ne:

((II)) you do not belleve, then you do not believe.

I cannot junp higher than my head.

A. You are trying.

B. No, no; I see that you are trying - as your colleagues before you

expressed ((It)) - to find sone kind of hooss (kryuchochki) and to

---

## Page 22

Fell, ((1t is)) not this ((mich is)) Important.

Fell, ((it 1s)) important not that ((D's surnane)), this ((B's

surnaze)), no sits here, said tat fron larch ((onvard)) he received

500 ((rubles)) for rank, 1,700 for, ah, basic pay for position

(dolzhnostnoy oiclad) .

"But in larch of 1953 they vere not givinr ((pay)) for rank.

"Ha! We have caught hin."

Kell, you catch me; let us discuss ((this as it is)) in rcality

(po-chiteysti), as it 15 in 1i.e.

I tell you: I received 1,700 as a case officer, to ran: - 500.

For a year (V techeniye soda) the; vore not giving ((pay)) for rank:.

Walch:

About, it scens to ne, I thin!,

•50, at the end of 1053, the

beginning of 1751, they were not giving ((pay)) for ran'.

But, again, I do not renenber.

A. In my opinion, so, in my opinion, you know exactly when they were

not giving ((pay for ranis)).

I want you to dig up this dog (ll.e., tell the truth - etu sobaku

raaryt')).

You yourself know....

B. Understand (Poynite), 11, so, you do not give me ((a chance)) to

say, I told you that from such-and-such a time until such-and-such

they were not giving us ((pay)) for rank, and we now would have

(ne stoyalo...) by no questions of any kind and ve would not be

dwelling on this, 1f I had know ((then)).

A. A KiB employee would say ((it)) so, that they were paying fron

such-and-such a time until such-and-such ((a time)) and from such-

and-such ((a time)) they did not pay.

B. Yes; why are you laughing (Vy chto sneyetes'):

((B laughs))

.....

---

## Page 23

A. One must ((1.e.,

I have to say so)).

B. Vell, this is a jolie (anelidot) .

1. ((1n English))

"ell.

Understand ((it)) as

you tish ((i.c., take it however you like)).

Understand ((it)) as you wish.

B. You are a man of great hunor ((i.c., you have a arcat sense of

humor - Vy s bol'shin yumoron chelovck)).

Honestly, of great humor.

A. We will tali nore about hunor (ily yeshche ob yumoron pogovor im).

lie have tine enough.

...

B. Of course. ((Pauses))

Tell, If I knew exactly, I rould tell you: exactly from this nonth,

until such-and-such a month, they vere not giving ((pay)) for rank.

ie moongin

A. I will remind ((you)) only one time nore: the point is not that I

am questioning you, that you must know exactly, that they stopped

((paying for rank)) in that month, but they began again to give

((pay for rank)) in this ((nonth)); this certainly is not the point.

Even if you were in error by 5 months on this, screw it (khuy s nin),

I certainly would not bother (ya sovershenno ne bespokoyus') about

this....

B. Yes, right.

A.

...One thing bothers me; you say you started ((vorls)) (postupili)

In March...•

B. In March.

---

## Page 24

What Titia

In this the they vere not paying ((for rania)).

This is the probles (Vot vopros).

B. (1G) what, I said that they began to pay, even if (puskay) tacy

bogan to pay ne later... both... both 1,700 and 500; vell, anyway,

I began in larch (nu, ya to nachal s ilarta).

I am telling you that they did not pay for a year, appro:inately,

for ran': (za pogony), for ran', for a year; then, again, thank the

Lord (slave tche Gospodi), they returned ((the pay)) for ran!:.

Evcryone too!:

a food breath (Ves' narod vzdohnul) and said (1G) .

A. If ve take ((this)) further, there are many - I do not iant to say

that perhaps this was forgotton, etc. - there are many other

docuents thich can renind (us)) when they vore paying, hen they

vere not paying....

((8G; A and B speak at the sane tine.))

...The Konsonol card (bilct), Party card, TDY (ionadirovochniye),

leave (otpuska) ((docunents))....

B. Right.

A. ...And so forth and so forth.

Even if a person is not interested in money, but this for bin (no

eto u nego)....

-=....

B. In the Konsonol card....

((XG; A and B speak at the sane time))

It is obvious (vidno), obvious, right.

A.

...Every aere it is obvious.

SOIL

---

## Page 25

But to Bet

They zere not payiar sorehere there In the beginning of ay work.

‹(Taet 1s) ) all.

Nor, you, of course, are tryin, soschow to tell ue want I an socila.

sose kind of tric! (kaverznoyc) word, etc.; but just a few minutes

ago you said that they stopped ((paying for rant:)) sorewhere in the

ond of 1053 and logan again in 1051....

B. ((Interrupts)) (.In ny tine (Pri ne), 1: ny tine, I do not roacmber. ›

A.

B's)) work, they stopped paying

...In the leginnin: of my ((i.c.,

((for ran:)) .

B. Yes; you are not tellin; ne; I an sajing: perhaps, I do not know,

I supposo that for a year they did not pay ((for rants)), as I an

telling you.

A. I know exactly that, not in larch, not in April, but still sometine

before this, they stopped paying.

This is exact.

B. They did not pay for a year, and then it ((i.e., the pay for ran::))

was returned, and everything... went (1 vse... poshlo).

"ell, I have not the slightest wish to hide ((anything)), or to tell

other than the truth (ne pravdu), or to deceive.

Well, not the slightest.

On the contrary, only on the contrary.

A. You, of course, do not want to say that you cannot control your

tongue with your head.

You can do this well.

You already have proven this:

And no one questions this, you understand:

You said that you do not want to deceive anyone, etc.,

etc., but I

am not saying that your tongue deceives; but the head - no....

---

## Page 26

1. 43.13

A. ((in Eaglish)) You see,

because they work together.

B. A single mole.

A. It certainly does not cuter into my assignnent to sonehow sive you

istavit' Van kaliyc-to)....

B. ((intcrrupts)) No, your assignent is simply to clear up the

questions thich are not clear for you, and ((that ls)) all.

A.

..The needle (shpil'kl) or still....

в. Но, по, до.

I do not jecl ((it to be so)), in any case.

A. He certainly are grown men (vzrosllyye lyudl).

.........

B. Absolutely; по, по, по.

I ask you to continue as you consider necessary.

((That 1s)) all.

I answer as I remember, as I remember.

A. Alright.

He will take a break (sdelayen pereryv).

Let's go to the toilet, etc. (Poyden nemnozhko possyn, posnotrin).

B. I have a great request ((to make)) of you; 1f it is possible, 1f 1t

is possible to resolve this

question, if possible, perhaps, during

our breaks to snoke a little, ha, ha, ha.

A. ((1n English)) Alright.

I think we will resolve this question favorably.

When ve return after the break, I think we will give ((you)) a

SEGRET

---

## Page 27

B.

(: Thanks.)

A.

Please.

( (RIEA:) )

A.

My cigarettes arc very weak.

I always an trying to quit snoking.

They have established that ((it is)) very harmful for the health,

but they all snoke.

B. Everyone (Vse) continues to snoke.

A. I think that you have been thinking during these (za eti) few

minutes.

Perhaps you will tell me something new about that of which we have

been talking.

B. I was thinking.

You know, at one moment it seens there vas a SAVCHENKO... по... по...

It was BEL'CHENKO as Deputy.

I said that the Deputy under SEROV vas Lt Gen BEL' CHINKO.

I do not remember a second SAVCHENKO, д0.

A. If we return to the question: when did they stop paying for rans, '

when did they begin to pay again, ete., do you not think that it

would be better for you to return to that story wich you told

earlier . that you started work in the organs of the NGB, not in

1953, but in 1952....

B. In 1953.

A. Because this question of pay for rank, etc., It is connected with

the year 1952, and therefore when you said earlier that you began

SEGRET

---

## Page 28

((actual)) history ((1.e., reality, the truth)), but then you suitched

and bejan to insist on 1033, taen it is very diffleult to put that

wich you have said in suen ories that, well, for enample, ((that is))

that one believes crerythin. that you have said.

T an not in the least pushing (ne nastraivayu) you....

B. ((Interrupts)) I do not vant to tell jou a lie (nepravda).

A. ... In some - as you say . in some unnecessary dircction.

For me, all directions are the sane.

B. For you, tic truth is necessary.

I am trying to say...; vell, you understand, at tizes, of course,

I an telling vhat I imagine to nave been the case (to, cito ya

predstavlyuyu, sai eto bylo).

And, pernaps, I maise mistakes.

But I cannot pull out (poddernut' ) what is not ((there))....

((XG; A and B speak at the sane tine))

In March 1953.

A. Here again is the question, by the very same, ((pay)) for rank,

as you said, I have not forced you to say anything (ya ne tyanul

Vas za yazyli) and so forth, you yourself said that....

B. ((Interrupts)) Simply in my inagination (y noyen predstavlenly) -

you understand, in my inagination - that it was soon (v skorosti) .

in my imagination, I again emphasize this: in my imagination • that

soon after I (v skorosti kak ga) began work, well, perhaps in the

end of 1953 - in my imagination, you understand me m they took

away ((the pay)) for rank and they did not pay us ((for rans)) for

approximately a year.

Then they brought it back (Zaten obratno vernull).

After this - it was later . several tines there vere (khodill)

- SECRE

..we ..,..

---

## Page 29

FURTSIVA, & sonher, as a seaber of the Presidium, case out uith the."

sugrestion to take aray ((the pay)) for rant, both in the Aray

and anong us (u nas).

#UsOV, who vas a member of the Presidium at that tine, vas catesoricall!

against this.

It is not possible to do this in the Army.

Not possible.

And there vere persistent runors that they again would take away

((the pay)) for rank.

A. How did they ansver FURTSEVA on this:

B. I simply an saying that this vas FURTSIVA's suggestion, when she

was a nember of the Presidium.

A. What - was she responsible (otvechala) for the work of the KGB or

the Army as a nember of the Presidium:

B. No.

As a member of the Presidiun, in all probability a question ras

posed (stoyal vopros) in the Presidium about the economy of resources,

about finding additional (dopolnitel'nyye) noney, sonewhere, sochow,

and they resolved the question, the problen ras resolved; in part

she suggested, as one of the forns, cutting this money.

The Army ((is)) huge, has nany people (nnogochislennaya) .

It ((pay)) for rank ((were)) cut, then huge anounts of noney

(ogronnyye den'gi) ((would)) be reccived.

In the organs ((of State

Security)) and the Army.

A. Is it true that one of the members of the Presidiun answered ber:

"Do you want (fy chto khotite) to leave the Army without pants (bez

shtanov): "

B. I do not know.

SLINET

..-

---

## Page 30

Invery Categor leaT aid coarse language (forma), AIsalssed tais

question, ((saying)) that one cannot in any case tale aray ((pay for

ranl:)) in the Army.

Because in the Arny the pay rates for officers ((are)) not laric,

having in mind conpany commanders, etc.

A. Speaking to the point, when you were working in... in the Baltic

Fleet or where you were - in the GRU, you say - how nuch were you

paid (skol'ko Van platili).

What vas the basic pay (oclad).

B. I bogan as an interpreter-translator (perevodchi), ay position

(dolchnost' ) was - interpreter-translator of Intelligence (ravedici)

of the Seventh Naval Fleet.

A. There ((was)) this Seventh Fleet:

B. It was in the Pacific Ocean, two fleets: the Fifth and the Seventh.

At that tine, there vere tro fleets.

A. Interpreter-translator of the Seventh....

B. Interpreter-translator of Intelligence of the Seventa Naval Fleet.

A. And how nuch were you paid:

At that tine (Togda):

B. ((After a long pause, B speaks, with uncertainty)) The basic pay

for the position (Dolzhnostnoy oklad) was, as an interpreter-

translator, it seems, 1,200 ((rubles)), plus . I began ((as)) a

junior lieutenant - 400; now, all of this has been doubled.

A. 1,200 and 100, this is 1,600, and....

B. Double.

SECRET

---

## Page 31

B. And, ((rait)) one minute...

secrecy:

Then...

they also added (naberall) here ((pay for))

acuitional, for us... vell... officers roccived... well, as

jou know, there is a finance certificate (denchnyy attestat), a

clothing abd equipment supply (veshchevoy) certificate, a rations

supply (prodovol'stvennyy) cortificate, so we received rations

(pajes), gave a certificato, ((oven)) those who did not have their

family ((with them)) ate ((on this certificate)), but then no one

had (vse ne incli) ((these certificates)), ((excepting)) only a few

persons ((who)) had their fanily ((with them)), ((to whon)) rations

supply certificates were given; we ate in the mess (stolovaya) of

the submarine base in Postovaya Harbor (v bukhte Postovoy), and

for us still (i nam yeshche)....

This is considered a renote area (otdalennoye nesto), plus ((there

are)) hardship conditions (tyazhelyye usloviya), additional rations;

we did not take the additional rations, but received more money.

In general, a large sun was accumulated (nabegala).

Because this ((was)) double ((pay)) .

A. Nell, this was in the Far East, but how much did you receive in

the Baltic.

B. I worked in the Baltic ((Fleet, area)) a few (neskol'ko) months,

here I alrezdy, when I arrived in the Baltic in 1952, to me there,

there they made me ((a)) senior interpreter-translator of the NAS URP,

of Intelligence of the Fourth Naval Fleet in the Baltic; again,

there were two fleets: the Second and the Fourth.

The fourth Fleet, the base of the Fourth Fleet - Baltlysk.....

Here was... senior ((B thinks hard, speaks with uncertainty))

something... 1,500... I do not remember.

Then, of course, less money, because here ((there is)) no double

(nikakikh dvoynykh) ((pay)), nothing... here, plus, ((for)) the

rank of lieutenant - 500, plus, then, ((for)) secrecy; yes, ((and))

for language, of course, both in the Far East and here, 10%, there and

---

## Page 32

P5090099980

And ((that 1s)) all.

There was no double ((nay)).

But here, a fer (neskol'to) months, until the end of 1952.

A. lell, anyway, for you... It was a great blow ((to lose the pay))

by ranks, there was much talk about this, and so forth, and I would

try or wish that you would recall, anyway, when they cut off ((the

pay)) for ranks.

B. I do not remember; I do not remember.

For a year they did not pay, or by work, in the beginning of ay work

in the dVD, they did cot pay for ranks for a year.

'A. Viell, in the beginning of your fork, as you said....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, the beginning of my work, this ((was in))

1953-54, this ((was the)) beginning....

In sy imagination, that they cut this off, to my thinking... (B

speaks with uncertainty)) at the end of 1953.

But I do not remember exactly.

They did not pay for ranks and....

A. This ((ls)) a very important moment, and inagination, this is one

thing, but the facts, another thing.

It does not matter how you turn and twist, if you say that in March

they appointed you as a case officer and paid 1,700 ((rubles)) and,

for rank, 500, when in fact they were not paying ((for rank then)).

How can you make things connect up (("join ends' - svestl kontsy s

kontsami)) here:

B. But there is nothing difficult here ((about this)).

They did not pay me ((for rank)) for a year; I do not remember the

period exactly.

Whether it was the end of 1953 or the beglaning of 1953, fron the

beginning of my vork, for a year I did not receive ((pay)) for rank -

---

## Page 33

so Year SeCeLe 410311 10554054 406 926139688 8407

work.

A.

Well, then, you already were working; by whose order and how was it

established (ustanovleno) to pay for ranks again; when was this.

B.

They did not pay anyone (vsem) ((for rank)) for exactly

a year; ((that

1s)) all.

A. Alrighs; you do not remenber when they cut off the pay ((for ranl.));

perhaps you remember when they restored ((it)).

B.

It scens to me that they restores ((it)) at the end of 1951.

It seems ((so)) to me, but again I cannot say exactly.

In my imagination, they roturned ((it)) at the end of 1934.

A. What - and they paid the back-pay (zaplatili za vse staroye):

В. No, по, по, no; not a kopeck; nothing.

They simply began again.

A. Well, here again, I wish to repeat - do you consider it possible

to believe a person who worked ((there)) for 1l years, etc., ((and))

who does not remember exactly and does not know or does not want to tel!

such a fact, very important in the life of all officers, ((as)) when

they took away and when they restored ((the pay for rank)); how must"

I, what conclusion must I draw (dolzhen vyvod delat') fron this:

B. I

cannot tell you what conclusion you must draw.

• You are drawing the conclusion....

A. You are sitting in my place and talking with such a person as yourself,

who will tell you this ((just)) so; what kind of conclusion would

you draw:

---

## Page 34

Hutn

DO A WILL MEIT IS SUITAB

alright is this really so important:

65W5812 -1666 6610 1700037

A. But what do we get (chto poluchitsya) if we go to "1952-53 - the

devil with it, then-we cone to 1951-55 -- "tie devil with It";

then at what ((point)) will we arrive (i chenu my priydem):

B. ((Pauses, sighs)) I do not know.

I am telling what (kak) I remember.

A. It seems that each and any living man ((must draw the same conclusion) ).

if you remember such

a thing as that FURTSEVA objected and they

opposed her, and so forth - you know, as they say in English,

((in Engllsh)) background....

B. Well, because I... and father was alive, I heard these rumors which

((were heard)) by father, as roughly happens in life (kak idet

zhizn' priblizitel'no); what ((was)) there, what kind of question

was discussed there, or something was decided there, or some such

thing was started there.

A.

But what (kak) do you think . you have said much about various

events in the period of these two-three years, what happened in

the Presidium or what you heard from father, and so forth; have you

said many such things, in your opinion (po vashenu anenlyu), or not.

B. There did I say ((then)):

To whom:*

A. Here (Zdes'), here.

To all (Vsen litsam) who have worked with you. i:

B. Of course, I have said that which I heard, which I remember, which I

remember.

That which I remember.

Let us suppose, some kind of question has arisen about something re

are discussing: "Aha! This is how it vas (Aga, vot oto vot)."

-SEGRET

t...-

---

## Page 35

A. Let us return once nore to the question - perhaps it upsets you

a little, but I think ((there is)) nothing to be upset about here;

1I you know, say ((so)); if you do not inor, say that you do not

know.

Well, let us move (davalte poldem) to Building 12 on Dzerchinskly

Street.

B. So.

..:

A. Where, according to your words and as far as I know, this is part

of the wole Committce for State Security; there ((is)) a number

(rjad) of directorates (upravleniye) and depts (otiel), etc.

Tie will begin from the first entrance (pod"yead) and go through all

((of then)) in order.

We will begin from the Central Entrance (Isentral'nyy Vkhod) to

the Club.

B. So.

A. You know, of course, where it is located....

B. Yes, yes, on Dzerzhinskiy (na Dzerzhinskoy) ....

A. On Dzerzhinskiy.

What ((is)) there, what kind of sign hangs there.

B. There is no sign of any kind.

Absolutely none.

A. That kind of sign hung there, if none hangs there today (yesli ne

visit segodaya) :

B. I do not remember ((that)) any kind of sign ((bung there)) in all

my years ((there)), there ((15)) допе.

---

## Page 36

9a. i means..

(can)) I show you - Building 2, here, so; this is how they are!

(vot kak oni).

A.

well,

I understand; I see how building 12 is situated (raspolochen).

B. ilere, here ((is)) the entrance (vhiod), so, here, fron Dzerchinskiy,

from Dzerzhinskiy Street, ((there is)) no sion of any kind here,

absolutely nothing.

But here, hore ((is)) the Gastronon, here ((is)) the sign, 'Gastronos",

In this building; this ((is)) Building 12, first floor.

I. Let us inagine that you, you understand... when did they open the

Gastronom there.

B. The nane (nazvaniye):

Gastronos 10th ((i.e., Gastronon No. 10))...

when did they opes...:

( (When)) I began work,

the Gastronon already was ((there)).

A. Hell, when, approsimately.

B. In 1953, there already was a Gastronom ((there)).

A. ((in English)) Kell.

You see, of course, we can go on like this endlessly, etc: neither

in 1953 nor in 1954 was a Gastronon there..

And there was no reform (I ne bylo reform).

8. There was no what (Ne bylo, chto):

A. There was none before 1953.

B. Tell, when ((did they open the Gastronom)):

A. It was not in 1953 or 1954.

This is what I want to know. were you there before the opening!

---

## Page 37

mie

B. I do not knon, I do not know.

I do not know when it opened:

A. Hell, if you were there in 1953-51, as you say, and you tell me that

the Gastrosoa was there, I can. in no way buy this, rell, I cannot in

any way, because....

((NG; B intorrupts))

B. ...well, alright.

In ay inagination, the Gastronon ((was there)) fron 1953 as far as

I rchember.

((Laughs nervously, unhappily))

A. I again rant to say, simply in conradely fashion, that inagination,

this is one thing, but the fact - completely another thing.

B. You may know ((sone)) facts, but I may not know ((these same)) facts.

I may know facts, but you may not know a number (ryad) of facts.

A. A person wo worked ((there)) Il years must, and probably does, snow

when they opened the Gastronom there and must also know what was

there before the Gastronom.

f..

B. ((After tro minutes' silence:)) I do not know.

A. Here again ((is)) a question.

It 18, of course, difficult for we, and for all of my colleagues who

were here before this, to believe that you were there, from 1953

until ((your)) last day, in the Second Chief Directorate of the KGB.

Because you even do not know the simplest thing: the building next

to Building 2 (sleduyushcheye zdaniye dlya Doma 2), ((and)) what was

In it there:

Even such a big thing as the Gastronom - you do not know when they

---

## Page 38

I even do not ask ((wich)) month, but simply the year, the year

B. I do not know.

I was not interested, I do not know, such a question did not come

up (se stavil taicogo voprosa)....

In my isagination, it was ((there)).

1. Therefore, of course, horever you may try to put your case nore or

less in order, etc., it is hard, it is in no may possihle to sew it

up (si tak se voznozhno podshit').

B. But ((it is) ) very sad.

((It is)) very sad that this is so.

A. And one cannot believe that you, for example, you insist that

"I was ((there))", "I know ((this) )."

((Even)) If It was not ((so)) with someone else (s kem), it was

((50)) with ae.

It turns out so: a thousand soldiers are out of step, and ((only))

one is in step.

B. I do not insist (utverzhdayu) ((that)) this ((is so)).

A. I know that you do not insist....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time))

B. . I answer you what was ((or, "that it was" - chito bylo)) there.

God knows!

If I began to visit (poseshchat') Building 12, then I visited

Building 12, then frow the very beginning of my life (s samogo

nachala moyey chizni), 1953, from the very beginning, 1953, I went

to Personnel (kadry) these 2-3 times, then I began to work.

Where only could I go in Building 12:

To the Club and... well, to meetings (sobraniye) in the Club.

- SEGRET

:

"4,.

---

## Page 39

Then, yes.

Run in to the Second Special Departneat (Spetsotdel), at the fourth

entrance (pod"yead).

This ((is)) the fourth entrance, and PINO (Finansovyy Otdel - Finance

Departuent)) - the ((ls)) the sixth entrance.

These ((are)) all of the entrances wich I visited for approximately

a year, until 1958, until 195..., yes, 1958.

A. Let us return again to the question:

Here ((is)) the door to the Club of the KGB.

What ((is)) written

there or vas written...:

D. Nothing.

liell, nothing ((is)) written on these doors.

There

are a few (neskol'ko) doors, you renenber.

The entrance (Vihod), well, not as the usual entrance (pod"yezd) in

Building 12 or in Building 2, this ((is)) not the usual entrance

(pod"yezd) to the Club.

This ((is)), a few glass doors, a few.

You go in one (Vkhodite Vy v odnu).

You see (Smotrite).

Here, let us suppose, ((1s)) one glass door, a second glass ((door)),

a third.

You enter at this ((one)) and, here you go through at this door, so,

you go through the next entrance (vinod) and there already you show..

your pass (propush) and you pass through into the Club (v pomeshcheniye

Kluba).

A. ((in English)) Alright.

B. There ((is)) no sign (nadpis') of any kind.

Absolutely nothing.

((It is)) another thing that when you go in this one glass door here,

there may be signs inside, in this

SEGHET

---

## Page 40

let us say, ((there may be strus)) "about camps (lager'), that there m

are a number of canps to thica the erployees send their children,

or there nay be, let us saj, ((a sign concerning)) a trip for

mushroons, and sonething else there (yeshche tan), the devil knos

where (suda).

A. But, you do not renember, fion the nosent ((of the beginning)) of

your work there, how long the sign (vyveska) . "Club of Employees

of the llinistry for State Security ISSP. (Klub Sotrudnikov Ministerstva

Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti SSSli)' -- hung ((there)).

B. And... I did

not see this sign, I did not see ((it)).

A. Too bad (Ochen' zhal'), too bad.

Let us return again to one question:

As you said, and this also is known to all, in March, after STALIN's

death, the MVD and the MIGB combined (ob"yedinili neste), and BERIYA

became the Minister of Internal Affairs; KOBULOV was his First

Deputy.

That club did the SIVD employees use after they joined (kogda onl

soyedinilis' s) the MGB:

B. The thing is that on Dzerzhinskiy Street, if you go just a little

further along there, ((there is)) the Club of the KGB - that which

is there now - on the right side, but ((1f)) you 50.

further along

Dzerzhinskiy Street, on the left side, on the left side, where at

one time there ms a store, the so-called "Arrow (Strela)" or

something in that vein, closed, there was the club of the MVD.

A.. What happened to It:

B. It also remained in the systen as a club after 1953-51, because

I remember that KLYUCHAREY, an employee of the First Department

(Otdel), died in 1953 and there was a question (vopros stoyal) of

whether to show the coffin with his body in this Club of the KGB -

12. 1P. 512009909

---

## Page 41

The present-day ((Clüb)) = or In ((the club of)T the Ivo.

Because it was necessary to find a place (poneshcheniye), they

ranted to use either this or this building.

And I wanted to say ((that)) they used both clubs.

A. That is there in this building at present.

On the day you were there for the last tine in loscow, or the last

2-3 years.

B. There is no club as such there

nOw.

It is

further

along the street, were the former "irrow" ((store

was)); there is no

club as

such, but there is sose kind of construction

organization (stroitel'noye khozjaystvo) from the KhOZU ((House

keeping' Directorate - hozya stvennoye Upravlenive)) of the KGS,

a construction, vell... section (otdeleniye) or departnent (otdel)

or something, the devil knows,

but sonething is there (no chto-to

tam sidyat).

That is ((to say, then)), the buildiag as such continues to belong

to the KGB, not the 3VD.

A. Let us return, further, to our autual friend, ROZENKO.

Earlier, you said that you completed (zapolnyall) a questionnaire

(anketa) and an autobiography for his section (otdelenlye), for

him and for his employee.

What other steps (Chto yeshche... predprinimalo) did the livD or the is

MGB - call it whatever you wish - take in order to accept you.

B. I absolutely do not know what they did (prinimali); I absolutely

do not know, because there were only these 2-3 conversations with

me and I 100% cannot tell you.

I cannot tell you; I filled out the questionnalre (anketa) for

ROTHENKO and for his man, for his case officer wo talked with me,

or ((it happened that)) when I had just started work, SAHAROV, the

Personnel man (kadrovik) of the Second Chief (Kirectorate), gave.

me two questionnaires, two autobiographies to fill out.

I cannot say exactly.

---

## Page 42

A.

But do you rezeaber the name of the Calel of the Personnel Section

(Otdeleniye Kadrov) of the Sccond Chief Directorate at that tire or

later.

D. There was none (se bylo), there was none.

There ins one Personnel san in the Second Chief Directorate.

((Tere vas)) not a Personnel group (gruppa), there was nothing.

One Personnel nan -- SHAROV, Nikolay Grigor'yevich.

A. Are you surc of this.

Ba Ilo, ho; not just certaiu ... we vere on the sane floor (my sidell na

odnom etazhe) .

And his office was here, literally ((just)) a fer steps from the

First Departuent (Otdel) •

A. But who is responsible for (zanimalsya) personnel of the Surveillance

Departnent (Otdel Naruzhnogo Nablyudenlya) of the Second Chief

Directorate at that tine.

B. UODK:

UODK... Central Personnel (Tsentral'ngye Kadry).

((fait)) one minute, UODK, they also had, like the Second Chief

((Directorate)) had its own Personnel nan in the system.

Not in Personnel, but, lile the Second Chief ((Directorate)), they

had - I think - their ((own Personnel)) Department (Otdel).

A. But what - you do not know more exactly:

You worked so many years there, you must probably know.

That is how it is, to speak in a conradely way (Vot tak, po-tovarishch-

eski).

B. But I an answering you.

In a comradely way.

I am answering you, as I remember ((1t)), as I know ((It)).

---

## Page 43

1E 18 IBPOSS1D1O TO DELLOVE IRAT LI YOU POSKER CARSAL LL KRZE

you do not know who headed (cavedoval) Personnel and who headed

(vedal) Surveillance.

B. One minute.

How. ((was)) it, uno headed ((ther)).

Surveillance, in my tine, as soou as I had begun to work, the vODK,

the Directorate for the Protoction of the Diplomatic Corps (Upravleniye

Okhrany Diplomaticheskoko korpusa), surveillance of foreignors

(slezhka sa inostrantsand) ins under (byla podchinena) the Second

Chief Directorate, under (vo glave s) BOYKO ((or, BOYKOV:)),

Nikolay Vasil'yevich, mo also was (yavlyalsya) Chief of the UODK and

he was a Deputy Chief of the Sccond Chief Directorate.

But neither he nor someone fron his, so to say, staff (shtab) vas

(ne sidel) in Building 2 (v zdannii Dona 2).

A. Do you know something about their safe apartrents (konspirativnaya

kvartira), there the Surveillance enployees lived, where they went

to work in the morning, fron which they moved about, etc., etc., In tha

period, the period of the beginning of your work in the Second

Chief Directorate - ((I ask)) because there were so many of them

in Moscow (ikh v Hoskve do chertovoy materi).

-

B. Pass ((An explosive sigh, through nearly closed lips))

A. Fell, name for me a few safe apartments where they do not take agents,

but it is called a safe apartnent there enployees come in the

morning, from which they move about at work, ((and to which)) they

then cone back after work.

B. I have given the whole plan (skhema vsya) for (po) the First

Department (Otdel).

A. I am interested... I have seen this whole plan;

((In English)) It's alright; we still will come back to this plan

1f lt is (budet) necessary.

---

## Page 44

worked so long, and so forth....

You nust know nany of then.

•asc a fer for me.

B. ((Long pause)) I cannot tell you the sain (osnovnaya) safe

apartnent, the surveillance base (baza slochki) of the first

Departnent (Otdel), of the forner UOD:, in 1953-54 I (Ge laughs))

do not renenber, I ras not even here.

A. In 1355'

B. In 1955, I was not even with then (u nikh) at these bases.

A. Do jo: inagine that a person who has worked as a case officer and

higher in the Second Chief Directorate, connucted with operational

natters, either finishes off ((naintains, "sews up" - podshivayet))

files (papk1) or something, but a person sits zear him, who neets

agents, conducts survelllance, requires it, writes assignents, etc....

B. So.

A. ... And in the course of three years you did not once hear and see

and you do not know anything about these safe apartments:

B. Well, why do you put the question thus.

A. Because you have answered thus.

Otherwise, I cannot put ((the question so)) .

You have said that in this time you were not working there and you

do not know.

In another instance, this morning or at the beginning of our con-

versation, you tried to convince me that (chto u...)...

"I heard one thing there, there a thing, but in the end I cannot

confirm how this happened.

I am saying that this thing also could have been heard; true:

→ SEGRET

---

## Page 45

in this Surveillance Department or in the Directorate for Affairs

(Po Delan) of the Diplonatic Corps, etc., I am not putting a question

to you of all the details of this, I simply am asking sherc fere

the saie apartments of the Scord Chief Diroctorate, where all of

their surveillants were (vsya ikh naruzhka sidela).

B. UOD:, all of the VODK was (sidelo), all tie chiefs of departments

and

the department (otdel) were in the arca (v rayone) of either

Sccond or Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)), in 1053-51, then BOYKO

neaded, well, surveillance (slezhka) of forcigners.

Vell, I never went there.

Hov does the work with this surveillance usually shape up.

Let us suppose, (1G) worker (rabotnik), I am running (vot ja vedu),

I have

a few cases, I mite out

assignsent for surveillance

(slezhka); the chief of the section (otdelenlye) signs, the chief

of the department (otdel) signs, with regard to foreigners.

And it goes by its own route (svoim kanalon) ....

A. We will return to this.

I understand how, by what route it goes, etc.

I have, as they say, the most routine, the most trifling, question,

which an employee who worked there must know.

Nase for me a few of the safe apartments where employecs of ((the

department of)) Survelllance of the Second Chief Directorate had

their headquarters apartments (shtab-kvartira).

To thich they go in the norning and fron thich they nove about at

work and ((to which)) they return.

Do they nọt go to Building 2:

B. No:

They.

Each division (otdel) has its ((own)) base, 1ts ((own)) base.

I do not know the base 1953, 1954, 1955, where the base of the

First Department (Otdel) was.

The main (osnovnaya) base fron wich they moved about.

_SECRET

..

---

## Page 46

data dudes to a 100048000

I was in these at that tine.

A. It Is difficult, of course, to believe, espectally for ne, that a

person who has worked there, ete., does not linow such a simple thing.

B. Hor ((is)) this, he doesnot remember such a thing.

Simple.

A. Well, nane these safe apartients.

Even one, two.

B. Well, Vosstaniye Square (ploshchad' Vosstaniya), Vosstaniye Squarc

I told of (daval) ((earlier)); now it has been made sceret

(zalonspirirovana) ((B apparently said this in error and then

corrected hinself:))... put aside (zakonservirovana), ((the safe

apartient)) on Vosstaniye Square.

A. Good; Vosstaniye Square, then (yeshche).

B. Then (Zaten); but this, not, this... when they nove about to their,

so to spea:, places; then, in the area of Kropotkinskaya, near the

bridge, please, well, ((there are)) the survelllance points

(nablyudatel'nyy punkt): opposite the Embassy and on the sides

(po bokam), in the rear (pozadi).

A. Hell, these surveillance points, this is known to everyone....

But who was

the Chief of Surveillance, at that tine or another, of

the Second Chief Directorate; who headed (vedal) the surveillance

(naruzhka) of foreigners.

B. The Chief was BOYKOV, Nikolay Vasil'yevich, Maj Gen BOYKOV.

A. There did he come from?

B. I do not know where he came from.

-SECRE

---

## Page 47

Chief of the Second Chlel) DIrectorate.

A, Who else anong their employces do you now.

B. Now, let us say, I know.

A. Not the Seventh ((Dircctorate)), as now;

tho, for crample, vas

BOYKO's deputy or the senior officers and so forti.

I am not asking ((about)) the lover-lovel (nalen kij) ((officers));

ve will return to this later.

B. There was his SINEL'SiICilliOV there, at that tire....

((Lors pause) )

A.

ihere ((was)) this, in the Vosstaniye Square area.

What kind of more or less outstanding, striking (kotoroy v glaza

brositsya) building (ob"yelst) is there.

In order to identify the place (Chtoby sochno bylo opoznat').

B. (2G) ...

"Taxi (taksi)" stand in this place.

You see: two streets run into (vykhodit na) Vosstaniye Squaie,

Vorovsisty Street (vykhodit ulitsa Vorovskogo) and Gertsen Street;

they

end in Vosstaniye Square.

Here, here... ((is)) Vosstaniye Square; here is (vykhodit) Gertsen

((Street)), here is Vorovskly.

Vell, here, across Vosstaniye Square • this ((is)) a tall building,

so, here - between Gertsen and Vorovskaly; bere is a small, such a,

you know, a little building (domishko), and here in this little

building ((is)) a taxi stand; so, here, on the first floor, there

was a safe apartment, it is now, but it has been put aside

(zakonservirovana)... put aside, they do not work in it.

A. How far was this from BERIYA's building (don):

afia les

B. BERIYA's building (dom), further, along Sadovaya, further, on the.:

right, further, the first cross-street (pereulos).

---

## Page 48

(ne razbrasyvat" sya) on varlous sites (ob"yert), etc.

Of course, it is very hard for me to believe that you worked there

for such a long tine and could not even notice that a sign hung at

the Club.

в. No, по, по.

sign; no.

Perhaps there was a sign before ny tine, but I do not remenber a

A. Or, for crample, the fact: everyone knows that ((there is)) a

Gastronon there now, but there was no Gastronon ((there)) either

in 1953 or 1954.

B. Well, maybe not in 1954, perhaps the Gastronon as made in 1955.

((Possibly, XG; A and B speal: at the sane tine.))

A. ...And you cannot say.

How many tines were you personally in this Gastronom:

B. Again, it is hard to say how many times, I was ((there))....

I cannot tell you.

A.

...Did you drop in either every da, or every other day:

...is.

B. Well, no, no....

A. Once a month, or once a year:

I think this is not hard ((to answer))....

B. Perhaps...

once (IG) •

A. ¿ Because if you were working there, you are working, etc., well,

did you not have to buy all the groceries (produkt) there, and sos..

forth:

---

## Page 49

A. For sose reason or otacr....

hhat sas the talk in the KGB.

Is it a good

neighborhood

((Is it 500d)) That a Gastronon is located there.

Can everyone drop in at the Castronor:

B. Of course, the neighborhood ((is)) not very good (li.e., It is not

good that the Gastrono

is there)).

Because, for example, &

porson drops in; he can stand therc, inside

the big windows, carry on a surveillance, ((secing)) who...

tho

enters, vao leaves.

i. Inat did the employces - foi example, your Countorintelligence

friends - say of such a neighborhood.

((las)) it good for the KGB, bad for the iGs.

B. Bad, of course, for the KGB.

A. Did anyone say this.

At a conference, at a neeting.

Or sonewhere ((else)):

That "ve do not need such a neighborhood

B. I do not renember that, I would have heard some such thing at a

conference and somewhere ((else)) there....

A. Vell, since....

B." ((Interrupts, speaking loudly)) Well, there was talk that this

((is)) not much of a place (nevazhnoye... mesto) for the Gastronom.

A. Probably there was talk:

someone decided to open the Gastronon there.

B. Nell, this was decided in the Mossovet ((loscow Soviet - Moskovskly

---

## Page 50

A. You were torting there; perhaps you heard sonething, on the basis.

of rnics....

B. I do not know.

I do not enor how it was decided.

But I as telling you that ((it vas)) the opinion of the operational

employees that this, of course, ((is)) not much of a neighborhood.

Very nuc's so.

A. It even could happen that, while all Soviet citizens are going

there, foreigners also can drop in.

B. Of course.

A. And the tourists and so forth, well, perhaps ((persons)) from the

American Embassy will not ((i.e., will they not)) begin to so there

every day....

B. They will notice ((then)).

A. They will notice them, yes.

But, of the others--perhaps a person simply is goins ((along)) and

sees (i vot uvidel) the Gastronon, runs in (zaskochil) for a

minute, etc.

Of course, It is hard - again, I repeat my earlier words: as you

wish, whether you llke it or not, it is of course hard to believe

that you would work ((there)) so much time and would not know when

they opened the Gastronon.

B.. I do not remember when they opened ((it)).

A. Or, for example, you cannot say nore or less exactly how often you

dropped in there or ((if)) you never were there.

---

## Page 51

often:

It is difficult to say....

((XG; A and B talk at the sane tine))

A.

... You never dropped in there (... Mikogda tuda ne zakhodill):

Б.

Well, no, without doubt (bezusiovno) I dropped in, I thing (po-

noyenu), soretimes I even dropped in after vor! to do sone shopping.

A. ( (This is)) for ne also

not understandable.

You understand, of course, that

when APAKUMOV was ((there)),

IGNAT'YEY was ((there)), and

so forth, KODULOV of course was not in

power (ne u vlasti byl) in the MGe or the WVD, he was vorking in

GUSIZ.

B. (: Yes, but:)

A. I am saying ((that)) when....

B. (: KOBULOV:) was working with ABAKINOV, he was working, KOBULOV

A. When:

B. lell... after the sar... in these years.

...-:

A. If he was an acquaintance (znakomyy) of your family, do you know

approximately shen he went to work in GUSIaL:

"Fire

B. No, no; I do not know exactly when he went to work in GUSIN.

A. And ((on)) that basis they took him and transferred him there, to

GUSINZ:

B. ((It is)) my opinion, my opinion - I emphasize ((this)) again .

EGRET

---

## Page 52

which ras organized inmediately after the var.

In connection with 'Bisyuth", so-called, the uraniun mines

(uranovlyc razrabotil), it ((ras)) necessary to put (otnesti) them

also under GUSIuz, but....

A. This ((is)) understandabie.

I sant to say, ve will not to into these details, ((about)) "Bisnuth',

GESIlz, etc.; perhaps ve vili return to them later; approxinately

when, do you think, "OBULov began working there.

B. I lo not inow, I do not lnow.

A. Who was he there, Chiei or Deputy.

B. Deputy Chief of GUSINZ.

A. But tho was the Chief; do you not know.

B. There were a few of then; there was SERGEXEY at one time, liho

worked as Deputy, was Chief, there was someone else there, a few

tines....

A. It is a little hard for me to believe that, for example, as far as

•I know, KODULOV was vorking in GUSIlZ, he began approximately in

''''it"

1947 or perhaps fron the beginning of 1943; he did not have, then,

any relation to the Ministry for State Security where ABAXUMOV was

Minister, and... that KOBULOV rould phone the NGB and recommend you

for work.

He must have, probably, ((connections with)) sone big man who (2G)....

B. You are forgetting about another ((thing)).

Excuse me, ((but)) you are forgetting another thing there - that

GUSINZ ((was)) a cover (krysha) for KOBULOV.

Because, in such an enterprise as "Bismuth", the people working there

were only from the MGB.

SECRET

---

## Page 53

A.

This ((15)) known and....

B. Unly people from the HG3 were working ((there)).

... That GUSIlZ was used as a cover also is know.

I do not want to get into an argument (v polemiku viavat'sya).

But we will say, not wholly correctly, that GUSlulz was only a cover

fOr KOBULOV .

B. Ile was a (byl kak) licutenant general in Germany, KOBULOV.

A. that do you know about relations (vzaimootnosheniye) betreen

KOBULOV and ABAKUNOV:

B. I do not know, I do not know.

A. So we ((will)) not have a falling out (Chtoby nan ne ssorit'sya),

do you not remember whom KOBULOV rang up in the NGB.

B. No; absolutely ((not)), absolutely.

There even was no talk of this, to whom he would phone (pozvonit),

with whom he would talk.

Absolutely not even a word was said.

...

A. That do you think - were you telling the truth (pravil'no govorill):

((about)) when you went in at the fourth entrance (pod"gezd),

((about)) when you went to see KOBULOV, that they told you what

room and so forth and you went there alone:

B. Absolutely the truth.

No one told me which room.

I received a pass (propusk) downstairs (vnizu) where they check the

pass.

An officer gave me the pass when I arrived and ((I)) sald: "please,

look; there must be a pass in my name here, at this entrance".

They looked, ((sald)) "Yes ((there is a pass)); you gO".

---

## Page 54

A. Someone showed you where to go.

B. Fell, I asked: "Where ((1s)) this three... three hundred...

"; sone

such room ((was indicated)) there.

They told ne, "Now here at.... You no to the right.

There are-a foy steps; 80 in-at the fourth ((entrance)), to the right,

but then

you so over and go up one of the stal-mys to the third

floor, and you will find this room on the third floor".

A. And no one accompanied you.

B. Absolutely no one.

A. No one met you.

В. No, по, по.

A. Alright; let us accept that it was so.

In fact, it could not have been ((so)).

After you completed the questionnaires (anketa), you subnitted them

to the Personnel Department (Otdel); then the UGB phoned again.

Let us suppose ((that)) they had received your file (delo) from the

Navy, and so forth.

Did they send you to the Medical Commission (seditsinskaya Kommissiya):

B. I did not go to any Medical Commission when beginning ((work at the

NGB)) .

A. How ((do you)) explain this, that you did not go.

B. I do not know bow.

They did not send me to any ledical Commisslor.

Kothing.

In general, my acceptance (priyen) for work was, so to speak, not

---

## Page 55

((It was)) an unusual (lie obychayy) acceptance (priyem).

Nelther this case officer nor ROZIENKO, whon I saw only once, mentioned

one word, though, that they were taking -e (prini-ayut), so to speak,

on influence (po blatu) or on ((the strength of)) a phone call fros

higher up (po bol'shonu zonku) .

No one asked how

I know KODULOV, froin where

I know ((hin)), and no

one said a zord

about KoBULOV had sent me.

Absolutely.

But the acceptance (priyen) itself was unusual (ne obychen).

......

A. I think ((that)) when ROZHENKO or the other employee, when he talked

with you, he probably asked about the state of your health.

B.

But... I... said... noral health....

I had served... in... in... the Navy.

A. You understand, of course, a person may be fit (goden), for example,

to be a pilot,

but sonetimes may not be fit to be an operations

employee.

B. Nell... I went through ((a medical examination)) when I began... uh,

uh... In the Navy.

A .

I am not speaking of this, because work in the Navy - even in ((Navy>)

intelligence -- ((is)) one ((thing)), and work in the State Security..

organs ((is))

another.

When they take a person, no natter from where - whether he comes

from the Army or is a civilian, anyone, always the routine is fixed

(poryadok ustanovlen), if one may so express it, the law (zakon)

((is that)) the person must go through the Medical Commission, not

because they want to throw him out or to find something ((wrong)),

((but because)) it is necessary for the future, when the person

completed his service (otsluzhit svoy srok), or ((they give)) him &

pension or something; or, for example, they accept (prinyali) you as

---

## Page 56

Is necessary to establish that you entered the ((State Security))

organs as a healthy person ((and)) fell ill there.

For me this is not understandable: why, there must be some kind of...

B. ((Interrupts)) I think (( that it was)) only because, coming from,

((that it was only)) that, so to speak, on such a level — KOBULOV

Gave

soneone a phone call, and ((said)) sonething, of sonething -

and on

such a

level, therefore, it happened quite casily.

And there were no special, so to speak, conversations with me.

There were no consissions, negotiations - nothing special.

A. But, anyway, they must have asked about the state of your healt.

B. Hell, probably they asked.

But I did not go through the Connission.

A. You know, If you worked there long.

The routine exists, that a person nust go through the Commission and

when they accept him for work, the Conmission's decision is attached.

If they accept you, for example, for the Second Chief Directorate,

for operational work....

B. But, you see, in fact...

((XG; A and B speak at the sane tine))

... Taking into attention these phone calls, they simply proceeded,

It seems to me . again, it seens to me, it is my impression . they

proceeded

from that position that, "Alright; here is this veteran

(veteran) ((B's surname)); he is on regular service in the Navy.

Has he gone through the Commission:

He has.

Is he healthy:

He 15 healthy."

And they saw the conclusions of the Commission in my personnel file

FARET

---

## Page 57

A. Well, of course, in the Personnel file....

B. There is the Cosuission's report (raport)....

A. ... Of course, there was the decision of some comnission, and so forth,

but you are explaining one ((ray)), and as far as it is know to re

personally, ((it is)) coupletely another.

((It is)) not important thence a porson has come, whether he was a

pilot or an engineer, whether he is a civilian or a nilitary man or

whatever, when entering on duty in the ((State Security)) organs,

he nust so through the ledical Connission.

This depends upon the doctors: will they loo's at his through a

magnifying glass or he sinply will 5o and....

B. I understand.

But I absolutely did not go through any connission.

They did not send me when ((I was)) entering....

Later, I went through the Cormission as all the employees do; that

1s, there were a few times during the entire term of my service

(za vsyu noyu rabotu), but ((this was)), so to speak, a medical re-

examination.

All of the employees went through the Connission.

A. But where did you go through this Conmission:

B. On Kisel'nyy Street (pereulok)... it was....

I gave blood, ((specimens for)) analyses....

But on Varsono!'yevskly ((Street - pereulok)), I went through the

doctors....

In the Polyclinic on Varsonof'yevskly.

A. On what basis were you sent to the Commission:

B. Not ((just)) me... but... the whole chief directorate (glavka) vent...

---

## Page 58

A. That = did they deternine fitness for sork in the ((State Security))

organs or sinply look at the state of health.

I. They

were looking at the state of health, so to speak; the sedical

re-examination of houf (ever)) it is called.

1. II ((it ms)) a medical re-cranination, then my the ((specieons

for)) analyses, when there are no....

B. ((Interrupts)) io, but there, here

you see, I rent throuth two or

three times; here

it was necessary to go throuch a series of doctors

and to sive ((specirions for)) analyses, luod, trine, etc.

A. Approximately when was this:

Fir first tise you went through this....

B. I do not remember.

This tas two or three tines during my years of service.

The last time, this ras... to my thinking... the last time I went

through the Medical Connission ((was in)) 1959 or 1960, sonetime

around then (chto-to y etor rode).

A.

But you do not remember the name of the chief of the polyclinic or

of the doctor who examined you:

B.

Well, a whole series of doctors examined me.

Which doctor whon you know, to which one did you go most often:

B. But I never went to ((anyone)), I did not receive treatment there.

Neither I nor my wife received treatment there.

Because we always received treatment in the Kremlevka.

A.

But then you went through the ledical Connission in the KGB in

---

## Page 59

Bol'shoy Kisel'nyy Street (pereulok):

B. Yes.

A. You do not remember one doctor.

D. No; I absolutely do not remember one doctor.

Vell, te went into the reception office (("registration office" -

registratura)), you go into the reception office, you say: "sy name

1s" so-and-so, in... for... the Medical Coumission.

They five you a check-list (( runner" - begunols)) according to which

you go to the doctors.

You begiu.

To whon you are to so is indicated there.

You begin to go through.

You go to... this... very... there in the reception office.

I have been to one doctor; you go to the reception office -- (fyou are

told)) to whos rext to go; they look there, which turn, to which

doctor.

Ah:

You go to this one, you go to this one.

In the course of a few days.

A. Do you not renember when this was

When was the first time you went through ((the Medical Connission))?

B. I do not remember.

It was two or three times.

A.

... In 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957:

B. I am telling you: I went through the Medical Comnission two or three

times.

Two or three times.

I do not remember the years....

SECRET.

---

## Page 60

The problem was resolved ((Laughs)) that everyone would engage la

physical culture, and it was necessary to divide the employees into

groups.

The first group, second group, and third group.

A. What does the "first", "second", and "third' mean:

B. You understand, the first group, for this, running is involved anu...

like real sportsnes, young people....

A. You wanted to receive a certificate (spravka) that ((you were)) nut

I1t....

B. Yes, not ((just)) I ranted to receive ((such a certificate)); it 1s

thus, so to say, you know, all the employees try to avoid the

physical culture sonehow.

It was necessary to cone to the physical culture exercises two

times a week.

Twice a week.

An hour before work, and an hour on working time (chas za schet

raboty).

;

A. At the sane time, how many times do the employees of the Second

Chief Directorate engage in firing with their own weapons:

B. Once a year.

A.

There do they hold these shoots:

B. ((Pauses)) There is a firing range in Building 12, in the basement,

and there were shoots also, I remember, in the beginning of 1951-55,

in the basement ((of the building)) on Markhlevskly Street.

Such a small building, very shabby....

It ((was)) in the beginning....

---

## Page 61

udostoverenlye lichnosti):

B. Oh, yes, this ((Happened)) soon.

I think, perhaps, vell... ((after a)) weei, a week and a half;

I

do not rcmenter exactly.

I was going through, ((on)) a pass, every day; they vote out a

pass.

But then I roccived ((it)) innediately.

A.

What kind of identification (udostovereniye)

was ((it)).

Can you describe ((it)) for ae.

B. The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the L'SSR.

A red booklet (knizhechka) .

The seal (gerb).

The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR.

You open ((it)); on the left, a photo (kartocika); a staip (pechat')

on the right... but (a)... the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the

certificate, then, ((that so-and-so)) holds the position of case

(sostoit v dolzhnosti oper)... yes... rank... Lleutenant ((B's full

name)) holds the position of case officer.

Neither the department (otdel), nor the chief directorate (glavk),

absolutely nothing ((else is indicated therein))... ((tbat is)) all.

A. What else was written in the identification.

B. Below, below, before the stamp and the signature, on the right, is

written in small type: "The holder of the identification is permitted

to keep and bear firearms (Vladel tsu Udostovereniya pazresheno

khraneniye 1 nosheniye ognestrel' nogo oruzhiya)'.

A.

But when you came to the KGB, did you bring some kind of weapon

(oruzhiye) from the

Navy:

в. No, по, по.

---

## Page 62

sachet Directorate

* A WAN

B.

Ithink I received ((it)) in 1953.

A .

How, under

what circumstances,

and where

B.

((After a long pause, I speaks, with uncertainty);

... The weapon,

the weapon, where did I receive the weapon

I received the weapon on ((Dzerzhinskly)) street, here on izerzhinskiy

Street.

Approstnately, approxinately, opposite lisel'nyy Street (vereulok).

Also,

such a run-town little building.

On the outside there is no identification (Vneshne ni cicm ne

ob"yasnish'), no sign of any kind, nothing....

A small building of two or three stories; I was there....

I received a weapon; someone else of the boys fron the department

(otdel) recelved a weapon.

A. What was needed in order to receive a weapon.

B. ((Pauses)) To my thinking, we received ((something)), as... a

receipt for forwardiag (dlya napravleniya)... to... well... to this

section (otdeleniye), fron our supply man (khozyaystvennik), SAMARIN.

A. You remember what kind ((of weapon)) they gave you?

B. I will tell you now... to my thinking, I had... the last tine, this...

((2G; B speaks very softly; then, a long pause))

...It seems I had a Walther Number 2... yes, in the beginning, a

Walther Number 2.

Then it was changed.

No, a "''", a "IT"

And the Walther I had was mine (A Val'ter eto u menya byl lichnyy)...

A "TT"... correct.

---

## Page 63

meet Scie

B. Yes; a big one (zdorovyy).

A. Did they rive cartridges for it.

B. Two clips (oboyna):

1. Could you take it home.

B. No... a veapon... the idea is that we nust keep ((it)) in a safe.

It was this way in the beginning.

They kept the weapon in the safe.

Tach, they thought it up; they rave the reapons over to ((the reeping

of)) the duty officer (dezhurayy) .

There was a roos where they put (suda sdavali) all the weapons by

departsents (po otdelam).

One fellow of sone sort ((was)) responsible for the reapons.

He Issued it, received it, when it was needed for firing, for the

range; they cleaned it.

(2G) then, in the safe; then back; this roos was eliminated, along

with the duty officer, and again they issued ((them)) and kept ((tben))

in the safes.

Now, for example, in recent years, they laid in the safes until 1963.

In 1963, again ((they were stored)) by departments and even fron

each section (otdelenlye); there was a single responsible person

in the departnent and he collected, he collects the reapons for all

sections, he gives you a little receipt-coupon (talonchik); you

have a receipt coupon which ((indicates that)) we are holding ((the

weapon)) in the safe, such a little yellow ((receipt coupon)) .

Because your number is shown there, etc.

And when it is necessary to go to the range, you receive it.

A. But, if you go somewhere on an operational assigment, ete., then

what.

---

## Page 64

A dean so to de

in and get ((1t)); you present this yellow coupon-receipt (kultochek)...

1. What - as tore an officer in

each department, tho ras responsible

for the scapons

B. Responsible for the weapons.

1. Of the department (otdel).

B. Yes.

1. Are you certain of this.

B. Absolutely....

But, again, I say ((that)) in the beginning ve kept, in 1053-51,

ve kept ((them)) right in the safe.

Each man held ((his weapon)) in the safe.

A. But was it permitted to take ((the weapons)) home.

В. Nо... по, по.

A. Yby:

B. Well, anything...

a person may get drunk... can happen....

A. Here again... you confirn this absolutely exactly... but this ((is))

not wholly so.

B. That is, that ((1s)) not so.

A. I do not want to explain everything.

B. No.

Will you tell me where I an saying ((sonething that 1s)) not so.

$ 59774197

- SECRET

---

## Page 65

Tacy kept ((the weapons? In the witer.

A.

There is no objection to this.

The question ((is)), my vere they not permitted to take ((the

reapons) ) hone.

It is written in the ((identification)) certificate:

"It is pernitted

to keep and bear...."

B. Vell, the idea ((is)), this is what, a weapon.

You

so to a ncet (vavla), you return fron the neet, you f.hava :

documents, you must have a veapon....

The idea ((is)) ....

But an enployee could take ((a weapon)).

Please, take it; he could take ((it)) home.

Dut if sonething happens….. children play there and... there are

grow children and....

A. The employees also ((1s)) a grom person.

I think he is responsible for his actions.

If he gets pretty drunt: or over-drinks, what has happened is without

doubt his business ((1.e., responsibility)).

When you came to the KGB, did you have some kind of uniform:

Clothing!

B. Hy Navy uniform.

A. The Navy uniforn also ((is)) different:

There are various ((uniforms)), you know.

B. ((After a long pause, B speaks, with uncertainty.)) Lleutenant....

A. Further?

B. Middle ((Higher School, or tight-fitting - VUzkaya: Or uzkaya:)) «ease

shoulder straps (pogon), tunic (kitel'), trousers.

nicest si,

---

## Page 66

14-00000

at thud or shoulder strape dha you have?

B. Sea duty personnel (Plavsostav).

A. Why ((the shoulder straps of)) sea duty personnel.

B. I wore both the shore duty (beregovaya) ((uniforn)) and ((that)) of

sea duty personnel.

ol sea duty personnel, 25....

A. Which must you wear.

I:, so to speal, ((dressed)) correctly.

B. of shore duty (Berogovoy) ((personnel)), of shore duty.

A. Of shore duty (Beregovoy sluzhby) ((personnel)).

B. Of shore duty personnel, because fie did not sail aboard ships.

A. You cane to the KGB; how did they have you dress (kak Vas stall

odevat' ) here:

Or, what happened to the old uniform?

B. Absolutely nothing happened.

I... came... I presented the clothing and equipment supply certificate

(veshchevoy attestat) at Rybnyy Street (pereulols), this ((1S)) near

Kuybyshev Street (ulitsa), where they received... stores (or

supplies - imushchestvo)).

There I received material for a uniform of the VD, KGB.

But I did not have any uniforn made.

So the material lay at hone.

((But I received)) money for the tailoring ((of a uniform)).

Then... When... around 1956, from 1956 I did not receive (ya ne

stal poluchat') clothing (obmunidirovaniye), because the problem was.

resolved . the employees repeatedly raised the question: "We are

---

## Page 67

!

we absolutely do not go about in untform; why do we receive a

unifor

Could one ((instead)) receive civilian clothes "

After this... a nunder (ryad)... in a nunber of departments (otdel),

not in a number of departents, but in all departuents, the problem

((ot)) who would (budet) receive was resolved; department chicis,

the leaders (rukovodstvo) of the departments will decide tho will

reccive civilian clothes, to will recelve military clothing.

• Let us suppose ((that)) a

section ((is)) peripheral, is responsible

(zanimayetsya) ((for functions concerning)) the periphery (fi.e.

outljing areas in the Soviet Union)).

((It was decided that You will)) receive only military clothing;

civilian clothes are nothing for you; you do not vork with agents

(agentura), and if you do work ((with agents)), you go ((for such

work)) only rarely"

Those tho work against foreigners, against an embassy, those fellows

were pernitted to receive civilian clothing.

Ne received civilian clothes -- one time, on Rybnyy ((Street -

pereulok)), but then we were attached (prikrepill) ((for this

purpose)) to the surveillance departments (po otdelan slezhki).

And I received ((civilian clothes)) together with surveillance

((personnel))... but, for ne... here, across fron Dzerzhinskly

((Street)), here, near Cherkasskiy Street (pereulok), I received

civilian clothes here.

Then, since 1953 or 1959, the question - may one receive, not.

civilian clothes, but money: - has been resolved.

But here, the percentage ((of the increase of pay for clothing)).

was small.

Here they decided... they gave ((it)) only to the fellows who know

a ( (foreign)) language.

A.

They had in mind that they would dress as...

B. ((That they would dress)) a little better, & little better.

Because, here, you understand, you go to receive civilian clothes;

---

## Page 68

your rank, not on the position (dolzhnost'), but the rank, and...

in fact, the naterial which the colonels, lieutenant colonels

received ((was) ) 500d, but ((for persons of ranks)) up to ((lieutenant

coloncl and colonel))... the material ((ras)) not very good.

When se received the naterial, it was proposed, a suit every year,

shoes, a shirt every ycar, a coat (pal'to) every tro years.

But the material you receive, you would not wear it, the quality is

so poor.

Usually, they sold it.

They put ((it)) in the commission store (v Komissionku) and sold ((it))

And so you sell ((it)) and have clothing made, of course, of hetter

material of better quality.

But since about 1958 I rcceived only noney.

A. Approximately how nuch did they pay ((for clothing)) for a yoar.

B. Oh, this depends upon, you see, let us suppose ((that)) I received...

when... the last time... something, I was working in the Seventh

Departnent (Otdel) In later (posleúnyye) years... 1962 or 1953; I

could have received, for the coat, for both suits, altogether, but

this ((would have been)) approxinately 500 rubles, in new currency.

A. 500 rubles:

B.

450-160 rubles.

iri:

A. Approximately then did they change the identifications (udostovereniye)

of the MVD to ((those of)) the KGB:

When did they begin to change them:

B. But the KGB... was organized in 1955 or the end of 1954.

I also do not remenber ((this)) date exactly.

And they began gradually to change the identifications.

A. On this point (Zdes'), how did they ((1.e., the new identifications))

-SEONET

---

## Page 69

B. Red.

Again, the seal (gerb), ((the Inscription:)) Committee for State

Security under the CH USSR (SM SSSR - Sovict Ministrov SSSR =

Council of Ministers of the USSR)).

Inside, ((it is)) the sage,

but ((the inscription is)) not the ND,

but the Ministry for Statc Security (Ministerstvo Goste:opasnostl).

A. And it is written the same:

B. With the exception only that the words ((vere)) not "linistry of

Internal Aifairs", but 'Connitiec for State Sccurity under the

Council of Ministers

of the USSR.

A. It also per.itted the bearing of reapons.

B. Yes, weapons, also.

A. Who signs the identifications.

B. Here, you see, it depends then on ((one's)) official position

(dolzhnostnoye polozheniye).

A. Take ((as an example)): a junior, senior....

B. Case officer.

The chief of a department (otdel)..., of the Directorate (upravleniye)

now,... Of Personnel signs, or the Deputy Chief of the Personnel

Directorate signs.

A. So.

ti

B. ((For)) a section (otdeleniye) Chief, a section chief signs, the

Chief of the Directorate, yes,

the Chief of the Personnel Directorate

((signs)) for the chief of a section.

But a section chief has a better identification, such,... up to ((the

- SE

---

## Page 70

Identification)), then fron (the position of)) section chlet (ap)) m

((one nas a)) leather ((-sound identification)).

Fetter cuality.

l section chief, the deputy chief of a department, a departacat

chief, etc., ((havo)) such identifications certifieates, sturdy-

1001:1n5, sut little darker red.

If it is of ilorocco - ((it is)) poor, a bright red; but this ((other

one is)) darker ((red)).

Hell, it

looks sore sturdy, the identification itself, more durable,

the loathor ((is)) good.

Then: for the section chief, the directorate chief ((signs)) for

the deputy chief of a department - the Deputy Chairnan signs.

A. But, lien you entered - you say, in 1953 - hy hon was jour

identification signed.

B. ((Pause)) I do not remember, the Chief or the Deputy Chief of the

Personnel Directorate.

Or, thes, it was the Personnel Department, and not Directo ate,

the Personnel Departnent.

A. Fell, if you received it in the beginning of your work - say, in

March or April:

B. It seess that....

I renesber, I renember, I remenber - ((it was)) ZABOLOTNYY.

A.

Who ((is)) this ZABOLOTNYY:

B. Colonel ZABOLOTNYY; he worked in Personnel.

Deputy Chief of the Personnel Directorate or Department, ZABOLOTNYY.

In 1954, they made him chief of the Second Special Departnent

(Spetsotdel) in place of KARASEV •

They renoved KARASIV, who had been Chief of the Second Special

Departent - audio penetration (podslushivaniye) for many years.

---

## Page 71

about 1960.

Pros 1960 ((onward)), he forced (rabotayet) in the Border Troops,

as Chief of the Political Directorate.

A. But why did they transfer his to political work.

What he ((is)) a political worker (politrabotnil.).

B. In gencral, he ((is)) a political worker.

He had worked, generally speaking, somewhere in the Central Conmittee

((Ts" - Tsentral'nyy Konitet)); a Party worker.

Grigorly Ivanovich ZABOLOMMY.

A. And the identification was signed by him at this tine.

B. By ZABOLOTNYY.

A. And you had this identification until that time.

B. Nell, they changed ((them)) .

They changed this first identification, then they changed ((ther))

to the KGB.

Then, it, this identification was changed a few tines in the KGB.

A. For what reason was it changed:

B. For a period... It ((ras)) given (ukazan) a definite period

(opredelennyy srok).

The certificate ((was)) valid for such-and-such a period.

That it was given for two years, so.

A. But what if a person were a lieutenant and ((then)) a senior

lieutenant, then a colonel?

B. In this case, you have the right: you give your Personnel man, wily,

Is in the Second Chief Directorate (Glavk), the usual necessary

- SEGRET

---

## Page 72

((th15)) - I was a case officer; not I ((an)) a senlor case officer.

A. Anddid you change ((jour identification)).

B.

Kell, there, after a onth, two aouths, a sonth and a half, two

weeks, it is changed.

( (This is)) also ((tbe case rith changos of)) ran:.

Ten your ranks changes, you so to the Personnel san, zive ((hin)) a

photo.

l'ell, another tine, you do not hurry there -- ((it is changed))

after several nonths; so.

A .

lihen you vore leaving there, let us say, in 1052 or 1961, wo was

Deputy Chief of the Personnel Directorate or Chick of the Personnel

Directorate:

B. I have written the whole layout... to sy thinking... ((lt was)) VA...

VASIL'YEV ((Speaks with uncertainty.)).

A. But where did this ((person)) cose fros (ottuda payavilsya):

B. I know only this thing about VASILYEV: he then was working, he

vas for some years, he was secretary of the Party organization of

the Third Directorate.

That is, he vorked in the Third Directorate, and I do not know what

he was doing.

Then they elected him Secretary of the Party organization of the

Third Directorate.

He worked as Secretary of the Party organization of the Third

Directorate.

Whether he was in the re-elections for two or three years, I do

not know.

Frow the Third Directorate Party work, he received a promotion, and

they took him, well, into Personnel, into Personnel of the First

Chief Directorate, In the Intelligence line, not into Central

---

## Page 73

A.

((First Chief)) Directorate; he headed the Personnel Group (gruppa)

under the Directorate... of the First ((Chief); Dircctorate.

that lind of pronotion is this.

( (To head)) a Personnel Group.

P. I do not know.

A. The Party organiz. tion of such a large directorate, but then Chief

of the Personnel Section (Otdeleniye) or Group.

B. Well, in the First ((Chief)) Directorate, greater significance

attaches to Personnel.

A. Whatever great significance would attach....

B. Yell, I know that he was taken from the Third Directorate, froz ((the

position)) of Secretary of the Party organization of the Third

Directorats, he was taken into Personnel in the First ((Chief))

Directorate.

From Personnel of the First ((chief)) Directorate, he was trans-

ferred soon to Central Personnel as Deputy Calef of the ((Personnel))

Directorate, but then they made him Chief of the ((Personnel))

Directorate.

A. But who was his deputy.

B. Now... his deputy now ((is)) KUZ'MIN.

He became First Deputy ((Chief)) EUZ'MIN not long ago.

He becane First Deputy ( (Chief)) around 1962.

Before this, he - KUZ'MIN - was chief of a department (otdel) in

Central Personnel.

Yes, about 1962.

The Chief of the First Departnent of Personnel took his place (Vesto

nego stal).

---

## Page 74

(rukovodyashchiye), Central Personnel, Central Personnel.

But another departuent there - ((responsible for)) let us say,

the peripheral personnel (perlierlynyse sadry) ((i.0., personnel

assigned to outlying districts in the ISSR)) - vas ((headed by))

this KUZ'MIN.

Maj Gen MAYMUSHIN was for a tine; lefore VASILYEV, Chief of the

Personnel Directorate....

SVETLICITY, present Chief of the Directorate ((of the KGB)) for

Moscow and luscow Oblast, worked in Personnel at one time.

i.

But fron where did he come in doscow.

B. I do not know where he cane fron.

I know, the first tine I heard about his (fit was)) that SVETLIChY

((bad worked)) in Persornel, as a Personnel man.

Yes, and ((tnat)) he las NAYlUSHIN's chiel, to sy thinking... he,

NAYHUSHIN was Chief, and be ras Deputy ((Chief)).

NAYHUSIIIN went to Central Asia, as Chairaan of the KGB in Uzbekistan;

here, SVETLICIIWVY becane ((Chief)) for some time.

Then, SVETLICINYY was taisen into the Directorate ((of the KGB)) ...

for Hoscot City and Moscow Oblast - there were two: for Moscow City,

and for Moscow Oblast; he recoived ((the rank of)) major general

while in Personnel.

I do not know where he worled before this.

A. Let us return for a minute, again, to the entrances (pod"yezd) to

Building 12.

Well, 1s there one entrance on Dzerzhinskly Street (ulitsa); or how

many of them are there on Dzerzhins:ly Street:

B. On Dzerzhinskiy Street, ((there Is)) only the entrance (vkhod) to

the Club.

there are no more entrances (pod"yezd) ((on Dzerzhinskly Street))...m

A. And then, where (fare they))?

—SEGNET

---

## Page 75

entrance (pod"yezd) ((1s)) there.

A. The seconú entrance.

Which, what - it leais to the Gastrono

D. No; the second entrance ((is)) next to the Gastrono:.

Next to the Castrono..

i. But wacre is the entrance (vihod) to the Gastronon

P. mis ((is)) tho entrance (vizhod), separate (sauo soioy), and there,

next to the Gastronon...

The entranes to the Gastronon, sec...

iron Dzerchinskiy Street, and

the entrance to the Gastronon is froz... nore, this, here ((is))

the through-street (proycad), as it is called, ictween building 12

and Building 2, ((there is)) also an entrance (vichod).

Two entrances.

Fros Dzerzhinsisly Street and an entrance fron here.

A. ((In affirnation of understanding)) lub.

But what was (nakhodilos') at Entrance No. 2 (pod"yezd noner 2):

B. At Intrance No. 2:

Which departsents (otdel), which eleneats (podrazdelenlye) were

there (sideli):

The Border Troops - on which floor I do not know; I was at Entrance...

No. 2 only in the section (otdeleniye) concerning the Archives

(arkhiv).

When I went abroad, before the trip abroad, I looked at the exit

files (vyyezinoye delo) on the members of the group with which I

was going.

A. Since when have the Archives been located there?

B. I know that it is located there, right there, now.

This ((15)) a part (chast') of the Archives.

---

## Page 76

A part of the Archives.

Spechlically, I personally was only... In... I loosed at the exit

filcs.

And I saw Border Troops (nogranichnil:) there, in forder Troops

unifors.

A. Let us 5o ((on)) to the third entrance (pod"yezd).

B. I never vas at ((i.e., used)) the third entrance.

I do not know that is there.

A. Hell, 3or...

B. No; ((rait)) one minute.

I was (by]) at the third entrance, I was (sidel) at the third

entrance, I went a few tines; Lt Gen BEL'CHENKO sas ((there)), he

headed, Lt Gen BEL'CIEN:O was Chief of the Third Special Department

(Spetsotdel), now, the Third Special Department, yes.

This ((is)) the department wich prepared various documents.

Well, ((if)) you need sone kind of cover (krysha), cover (prikrytlye)

or to have a document ((showing)) that you ((are)) a member of the

Organization of Journalists or that you work in the Ministry of

Culture, and... a false passport (pasport fal shivyy), this

departuent prepared everything.

A. That mas this department called earlier:

B. The Third Special Department.

A. Hell, let us take ((for example)), In 1953%

B. The Third Special Department in 1953.

This ((is)) the Third Special Department.

I wrote a paper addressed to (na inya) the Chief of the Third

Spocial Department, Lt Gen BEL'CHENKO, to the Chief of the Third

..^. •.

- SEGRET

---

## Page 77

Doctal Department.

A. But until it becane ((the Third Special Department) )

That was 1t

called:

B. I do not know.

I do not know what it ras called.

Now it is part of (('in the systen" - v sistene)) the OTU - the

Operational-Technical Directorate (Operativno-Jekhnicheskoye

Upiavlenlye).

A. Let us go ((on)) to the fourth ((entrance)).

B. The fourth.

At this entrance, then, ((there are)) the chiefs (ruiovodstvo), the

chiefs of the Second Special Departnent and a part of the Second

Special Department;

telephones - "Marusya" - it all ((1.e., the

whole part)) is (sidit) here, audio penetration (podslushivaniye).

Then, here, now, now, ibe chiefs of the Operational-Technical

Directorate, the OTU, are here.

Here ((1s)) the Sixth Special Departnent, formerly the Sixth

((Special Department)), now, also the Sixth Departent of the OTU;

this ((is for)) censorship ((perlustration - parlustratsiya)) oi

correspondence....

Here...•

A. Let us go ((on)) to the fifth ((entrance)) •

B. I never was at the fifth ((entrance)).

To my thinking, ((lt is)) closed, and... there is not entrance

(wkhod) there.

The filth, this, see.:. just as you go in fron Malaya Lubyanka

((Street)), Malaya Lubyanka, you go through a little courtyard

here - which I have said already, closed off (ogorozhen) so, by

a high iron grille, ((there is)) a free entry ((1.e., a pass is not

necessary in order to gain access to the courtyard through the snall

SEGRET

---

## Page 78

sco did dubai too.

So, the fifth, here, around the corner, ((15)) closed and, to my

thinking, I never went there.

The slith ((entrance)), there, straightaway the si:th (pryazo

shestoy)... the siith entrance, then; the FINO ((Finance Departzent -

Finansovyy Otdel)) ((is)) here.

A.

And the seventh ((entrance)).

B. The seventh; to my thinking, a part of Personnel also is (sidit)

here, a part of Personnel is at the seventh; the Planning Departzent

(Planovyy Utdel) is therc..; yos, ((and)) the HOB Departient is

sonewhere here, here is the Hobilization Departnent (lobilizatsionny!

Otiel), not all ((of it)).

The chiefs (rukovodstvo) ((are)) in the New Building now....

And that is all.

A. Well, and the eighth ((entrance)).

B. ((At)) the eighth, as I say, ((is)) the Party Coamittee (Partion).

A. You always insist that you saw ROZHENKO there, at the eighth

B. At the eighth, yes.

A. For your information, he never was (ne sidel) there.

B. He was.

((It is)) another matter, mhat ((cane)) later; later - I do not

remember the year . he was taken into Personnel of the First

Directorate.

A. There he was taken is not important.

But the Personnel Department (Otdel Fadrov) was never at the eighth

entrance.

SECRET

---

## Page 79

A. Especially in 1953, ((then)) they invited you there, etc., none of

the Personnel people were at the eighth entrance.

B. On the sixth floor, on the sixth floor.

A. It is interesting for me, of course, to hear that you insist ((upon

this)), but it is impossiblo for se to believe this, '(since)) It

vas not ((so)).

B. I dio not inow, I do not inow.

I an telling you what (int) I renember and where I vas.

A. Perhaps it was at another entrance.

You simply have forgotten:

В. No, по, по, по.

This cannot be.

This is the farthermost (kraynly) entrance, the very farthest

entrance, there where the dietetic restaurant (Dietstolovaya) ((1s)),

where the library ((1s)).

A. Where is the ninth entrance:

- ...

B. The ninth, I do not know where.

The ninth entrance:

Is there a ninth?

A. There 1s.

B. I do not know the ninth.

I do not know.

A. What (kak) do you think.

Yor have worked there so nuch tine, and so forth.

- SECT

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## Page 80

I. I do not lnow taj I do not ino:.

Is there one ((i.e., a ninth entrance)).

Therc is.

B.

I do not know, I do not know; I vas not ((there)).

A. You aust know there it ((is)) and what ((is)) there.

B. I do not know.

Is it that you consider the ninth entrance ((to be that of)) the

Dircctorate ((of the KGD)) for lloscow and Moscow Oblast norc

currently.

A. This building ((of that Directorate 1s)) under a completely different

number, and they are next to....

B. They are near ((each other)), they are attached.

A. Nearby, but it has another number.

And it has its ((own)) entrance.

B. The entrance from Lubyanka ((Street)).

From Malaya Lubyanka.

A. There the ninth ((1s located)), or....

B.. I do not know, I do not know; the ninth I do not know.

A. If you know all the rest, the others, that reason, why can you not

tell ((about)) the ninth.

B. Because I do not know if it exists, whether there is one; and 11

there is one, then I never was there, and I do not know were it is

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## Page 81

A. A person tho has vorked ((there)) 11 jears can in no say miss it...

B.

I do not inow.

I do not "now nore.

( (There are)) no entrances of any wind here.

1. You could not in any way have missec....

B. I do not inor, I do not iino..

A. However it coes, however it twists, you willio nothine (li.c., you

cannot ciange the facts)), recause it exists and people no there

every day.

B. ((Laughs)) Nell, here 1s it.

There is it.

A. In Suilding 12.

B. In Building 12, 1001!

Here are four ((entrances)): it ends with the fourth; around the

corner, the entrance (vihod) fron the courtyard - here ((also))

are four: the fifth is closed - I never was there

- the sixth,

sevents, eighta; there, that is all.

•...

A. Te can talk this way for a long time, but I an inclined to say agaia

that you nust think up seomthing nore substantial or more truthful.

B. Do you want me to think up sonething for you, or to tell the truth

as I know ((1t)):

A. Speaking of the eighth entrance, speasing of the seventh entrance,

speaking of the ninth entrance and speaking of the fifth entrance,

11 you worked ((there)) ll years, you must know ((then)) as ((you

" no bite.

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## Page 82

B. I as tolling you what I know, when and what entrances I used

(vi hodil... vykhodil) •

I do not know another entrance.

A. lihat do you thin': (ia: Vy schitayete); mat conclusion aust I nake,

when the ninta entrance erists....

D. ((Interrupts)) I do not linow where it is.

A.

...And a number of clenents (podrazdeleniye) shich vort very closel:

with the Second Chief Directorate are thore, and an eaployee tho

vorked there ll years does not know about this.

B. I have enurerated for you all entrances of Building 12 wich....

A. The problem is that that is not all ((of the entrances)).

And I see no basis, if you know all the rest, more or less, ((for))

why you do not tell ((about)) the ninth.

B. I do not know the ninth.

I told you that I do not know.

Niell, how can you pose the question so

A. I certainly an not ((just))posing ((a question)). =

It exists.

One can in no way (ni kak, ni kuda) throw it out.

B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know.

A. There it 1s written, in white on black or black on white, "Entrance

No. 9".

B. I do not know Entrance 9.

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## Page 83

You In the !loscow Oblast ((XGB building)):

In the luildint itsclf.

B. About too tines, probably, or three.

A. In the shole ll years, only about two or three times:

B. Yes.

1. And how sany times during your ll years of work did you pass by along

Malaya Lubyanka ((Street)):

Fron its ((the street's)) beginning to its end.

..la:" ...:r.

B. It rould seen (ial: budto by) I did so (prothodil) a few tines, of

course.

A. Nell, "a few tines", this is a loose idea (ponyatoye rastyazhimoye).

After 11 years, to say "a few times", this is alnost (las if to say

you)) were not ((there)) at all.

B. I passed by a few times, but I did not count how many times.

I did not have to, there was no need to pass along the whole of

Malaya Lubyanka ((Street)) often.

I went, by the way, in 1953, 1 often went to Lubyanka, but... I

vent via Malaya Lubyanka.

Why:

I had a certain safe apartment (konspirativnaya kvartira) when I

began to work in 1953; this K/K No. 7 was on Markhlevskly Street

- (ulitsa); it is parallel to Lubyanka.

One could go along Markhlevskly Street then, but I went along....

A. ((Interrupts)) fell, ve have enough time ((to talk)) about this

apartment No. Y and Markhlevskly Street.

Can you briefly explain to ne - begin fron Malaya Lubyanka, straight

from Building 12 and up what was there:

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## Page 84

A. Let us finish sith Buildinr, 12; further, the loscow Oblast ((KGB

building)), begins....

B. Opposite, opposite, ((1s)) a noteworthy place, here, opposito the

Catholic church (kostel).

A. So; what is before (pered) the church

B. Some kind of low building - to floors, to ay thinking.

A. That is located there in it, that special ((thing)).

B. I do not know of anything special.

I never ras there.

To my thinking, our houserteping and supply offices (lhozyaystvo)

were there: of the LiVD-iGB.

A. Further, let us go ((on)) beyond the church.

3. The usual buildings (Obycanyy dom); I never rent there to even one

of then....

A. On the left, on the right.

B. ... Either on the left, ((or)) on the right.

A. Nothing special.

B. Nothing special, noteworthy.

A. ... There is nothing noteworthy.

B. NO.

1999.

---

## Page 85

You know, if I worked there for quite a length of tine and you

worked

((thore)) 11 years, I also had so special reasor to go alon. this

street - let us say I did ((this)) tus tines less, 50 - but, on

the basis of what I saw and nat I know, it secs to me ((that))

you aust inow nore than I, especially ((concerning)) more recent

tiges.

Because in ll years, not only in the way of worl: and cases, but

simply iccause it happeneà so (tal: nozhut byt'), I rode along,

walked along ((this street)).

B. Not necessarily.

It ((is just)) an alley (( dead end" - tupicho!)), a littic

through-street (poreulochek), lalaya Lubyanka; if one has to go on

Malaya Lubyania, tien only (*G).

A. ... This alley, etc.; it is alongside the KGB and Building 2 and

Building 12 and ((the building of the KG3 for)) lloscow Oblast and....

B. ((Interrupts)) Well, and what of such (chto zh taisogo) (XG) ... it

is not necessary for you....

1. Each KGB employee knows all of these buildings as ((he knows his own))

fingers.

that ((they are)), for what, where.

B. What I needed to know, I kne.

A. Why can you not explain this.

B. I have explained to you.

What I needed to know, I knew; I am explaining to you.

A. And again the question: how ((do you)) explain way (chto) you

cannot correctly say where the Personnel Directorate is situated,

((wir)) you cannot say that it is at the lifth entrance (pod"yezd),

---

## Page 86

((can do)) so about other entrances:

I must say that a part of that you have said is the truth, as it

concerns 1953, approxinately.

B. Understand ((se)); how ((is it that)) you do not understand; you

are working in Central (Iscntral'nyy) Building 2, I an rorking in

Duilding 2, so, there in the Old Building; do I 50 nuch, often, to

the New Building.

0y, 0y, 0y, o4, oy:

Very rarely.

For what is it necessary for me to 8o to zuilding 12.

If it was necessary for no to go to the Party Conmittee (Partloi),

I went to the Party Conmittee; if it vas recessary for me ((to so))

to Personnel - it vas not necessary for se to do to Personnel, no

one phoned me; there was no need whatsoever for me to go to Personnel..

There did I go.

I went to the sixth entrance in Building 12 - this is FINO; there,

they reccive money and they write out travel documents there - I

went there.

Now.

But, there is the eighth - the Party ConJittee of the Komsomol

(f1.c., the Sonsonol Connittee, although 5 says, "Parthon Konsonola")),

when I sent in 1953-51, then, the Party Party Committee (fi.e., the

Party Comnittee; B thus distinguishes it - "Partkon Komsonol")).

So, now, ((I vent)) to the fourth entrance aost often, because ((I))

had (prikhodilos') to give assignments (zadaniye) to the Second

Special Department, to the Sixth Special Department • ((I went))

here often.

I was at the second entrance

a few times - tais ((was)) about two

or three before ((my)) departure abroad; ((that is)) all.

There was no further necessity ((for me)) to go to Building 12.

Absolutely none.

A. You say that you went to the Operational Equipment Directorate

(Upravleniye Operativnoy Tekhniki) ((1.e., the Operational-Technical

fre.

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## Page 87

Ww: ((1.0. the Operational-Technical Directorate, OTU) , and 80: Only

B. Yes.

A.

If you vert there, ofton save ((tion)) assignaents, otc., then low

do you caplain that you do not know General StVCIO, Ivan

Tikhonovich; how do you ciplain this

E. I do not inow, I do not lino: sAvcitatio.

A. I do not see any basis, if jou know, theic is no sense and no basis

((for j0u)) not to tal': about this.

B. I do not linow.

I ((just)) now said: I vort....

A. He is not dead; he was there, he is there.

B. ((T'ait)) one minute.

I am

talling you ((that)) I went to the Second Special Departnent;

to whom did I give assignments.

Fell, the first year, 1953 - to KARISEV, personally to the Chief

of the Second Special Department; then, later, to alBOLOTTY.

To the Sixth Special Departuent -- to SHCHIKOCHISHIN, tO SHCHINOCHIHIL

To who else... well, you go, in the Second Special Department, to

"Marusya", YANICHEV, BORISENKO, you go to these ((persons)).

( (That is)) ali.

In 1962-63, I went a few times to PATRUKHIN... from the chiefs of

the OTU; ((that is)) all.

To whom else did

I go.

(2G)

A. For our next conversation, I want you to think a little about

these questions of which we have talked today.

I consider 1t a direct necessity to return again to them.

- SEGRET

---

## Page 88

Please.

But I have told you only that which I renember.

A. I think that we tried very hard to introduce order in the questions

and answers, but I do not see that you ((In inglish:)) clear up

everything.

B. too bad (taprasno), too bad.

A. I consider that you - despite some truthiulness in your stateuents,

In the testinony which you vive, etc. - are inclinod, anyway, for

some reason unknown to me ((not to tell the luth)) • cither you

are not telling the truth or you do not know ((the answers to))

those questions which one would know ((how to)) answer just like

tnat ((Snaps fingers))....

B. ((Interrupts)) That which I know, I answer.

• .

A.

... Without any hesitation.

In addition, you make ((what)), in your vlew, perhaps, it seems,

((are)) snall mistakes, but in my view - very large ((ones)) -

when, for example, you say ((that)) ROZHENKO ((was)) at the eighth

entrance, where he never was (gde on nikogda ne sidel).

B. I do not know.

I saw the Personnel nan (kadrovlk) only at the eighth (entrance)).

A. I would not want our more or less friendly conversation to change to

a stronger course (rusio).

I would consider it useful that you think ((about this)).

B. I have told you that, you see what = you already put the question

so (tak)... absolutely not believing....

Well, I cannot....

What I know, I tell (XG) .

---

## Page 89

Is to help you and to help my colleagues in sone measure, though

they are fully convinced and have their ((own)) correct opinion.

I think (schitat') that you should think in general about that

position in thich you find yoursslf (nakhodit'sya).

And when

we talk about ((some)) questions, if they ((1.c., the

answers)) are not known to you, it will be nuch sinpler to say that

"I was not there and I do not now

than to drag in, or to do

sonething like that, your ((own)) conclusions, such as: "I imagine"

or "I think'.

Everyone can imagine and can lie....

B. But that is the reason; you asi. ne, but I tell you that I do not

know, but I inagine so... thus.

A. Because imagination sonetines can misinform (dezinfornirovat')....

B. So, I emphasized to you: "It is my imagination' (2G)... ((at))

this noment, when I have explained it to you, I have said that I

do not know exactly, I can only say "imagination".

A. One cannot, for example, belleve - i1 a person has worked ((there))

I' years and knows that be began ((work)) in 1953; a person who has

worked there cannot say that, at the eighth entrance, he was in the

Personnel Department, which never was there ((at the eighth entrance)).

•====

B. Well, 11 I went, ((11)) I had these conversations there....

Before my entrance (postupleniye) ((on duty)), precisely (fat that

time of entrance on duty)), and ((even)) now a part (chast') of

Personnel is there, it is (sidyat) ((there)).

A. What - they did not want to let you in the Personnel Department

and a Personnel man went to the Party Committee (Partkom) or the

Konsomo…...

B. ((Interrupts)) Lord, deliver ((ne)); Lord, deliver ((me)); I even

ta: +13835 +0114441-299

---

## Page 90

wwdao.such-ldes(predstarlenige)-dfthat-such_nee-the-ensottmm

• because I saw the office (rabochaya obstanovka), I saw ((that)).!"

4 or 3 officers sit in the office, they have mpers

on the desk...

what.

No ( (that was no: the case)).

A. I think that we will stop on this ((point)) today.

I think ve will neet again.

B. I would like to

say only one ((thing)).

That my, it was, it ras

my sincere wish to say, hiding nothing....

A. ((In English)) Well,

between us, it seens not completely so to me.

B. Dut for me... there is no reason oi any kind to hide something or

to conceal something such.

((86 - A and B speak at the same time))

A. ...If one has absolutely no reason of any kind, or 1l there are such

reasons, I would like to hear these reasons.

B. Really, for me there is absolutely no reason of any kind, no wish

of any kind to tell you lies (nepravdu) and to hide something.

- m-

A. But after our conversation of today, the first, I can tell you

straight out ((that it 1s)) my

Impression that you probably must

think very, very much before we really will come

to a common..

agreement and find a common language:

Because I have come not ((just)) to spend time and not to busy myself

with nonsense.

I do not want to say that what you said today is nonsense or Iles,

etc.; a part of what you said today, etc., Is the truth and

absolutely no one will deny it.

But a mumber of moments of which you have spoken,

etc.,

one cannot

---

## Page 91

Let pass.

B. You are free to have any opinion.

A. I want to say that if you say, 'You are free", etc., of course, I

an frce, but I do not sant to think this way (tak), as I want....

B. ((Interrupts)) I do not want you to think....

((3G; A and B speak at the same tine.))

A. If we ((have)), for exauple, sonethere a question arises, a question

arises, etc., sone kind of nisunderstanding, as, say, with regard

to the Personnel Department or with SCHEMiO there and others, etc.,

I would wish that the person who has worked in lloscow in the Organs

of the KGB, as he says, for ll years, would give ne a nore or less

plausible explanation, ((other)) that that which he has given we.

.?:%

........

.:.

B. We are at the greatest impasse.

A. As I sald, 1t ((1s)) so simple.

We can continue our conversation for quite a long time and I can

tell you directly that I am here, really, I vant to establish the

truth.

Where there is a lle of for some reason you have found it necessary

to say other than what you wish or ((other than)) what is ((so))

In fact, you can, without any fear, say that....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

...Where you are inclined to be in such a position, as ((that in

which)) you began today, and not give more or less plausible

explanations on a number of questions, I think that....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

---

## Page 92

telling you the truth, then why do you talk with ze.

If you think so.

A. I already have emphasized that nuch of that you have said is

plausible.

B. Well, so - I have not lied (sovrat') to you, I have not lied

(solgat'); not at all.

Too bad you are this way (raprasno Vy tak).

Well, what, then.

....

A. I think it is not necessary to be upset (nervnichat'), to take

offense, etc.

B. that offense.

((XG; A and B speak at tie sane time.))

A. I you really are inclined....

B. I really ((am so)) inclined, and I really wanted....

A. ...Sone kind of help, that I would help clean up this case (delo),

in which there is so much dirt, etc.

I thinl: that you must this ((about this)) today and decide.

Perhaps you yourself will begin to tell another story (tema) tonorrow. :

B. Good-by.

A. Good-by.

((End

of Reel #2; End of Session #1))

---