"HEARINGS BEFORE THE SELECT COMM. ON ASSASSINATIONS: HOUSE OF REP'S...
Originator: HSCA
From: STURGIS, FRANK A.
Document date: 03/20/1978
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

2/23/201

AGENCY:

HSCA

RECORD NUMBER :

180-10088-10087

RECORD SERIES:

NUMBERED FILES.

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 006649 (PT 1.)

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

HSCA

STURGIS, FRANK A.

TITLE: "HEARINGS BEFORE THE SELECT COMM. ON ASSASSINATIONS: HOUSE OF REP'S...

DATE :

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

03/20/1978

191

DOCUMENT TYPE :

CLASSIFICATION:

RESTRICTIONS :

CURRENT STATUS :

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

CIA.

CUBA.

STURGIS, FRANK A; TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE.

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES.

CASTRO, FIDEL:

DEPOSITION.

Unclassified

3

Redact

01/01/2003

Duplicate deposition follows in next folder. Box 128.

""i"

• Cutt

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WASHINGTON, D.6. 20024

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

House of Representatives,

Select Committee on

Assassinations

INTERROGATORIES OF:

Frank A. Sturgis

Miami, Florida

March 20, 1978

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INTERROGATORIES

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MONDAY, MARCH 20, 1978

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House of Representatives,

Select Committee on

Assassinations,

Miami, Florida.

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The committee met at 10:20 a.m., pursuant to

notice, in the Grand Jury Room, U.S. Attorney's

Office, Federal Court House, 300 Northeast Ist

Avenue, Miami, Florida, William K. Iriplett, Esq.,

Staff Counsel, presiding.

Present: Albert Gonzales and Gaeton Fonzi,

Investigators; and Edwin Lopez, Researcher.

Also present: Frank A. Sturgis, the witness;

and Ellis Rubin, Esq., Attorney for the witness.

Mr. Triplett. We will come to order.

Mr. Shapiro.

Sir, I am Herbert S. Shapiro,

United States Magistrate. I'm a Federal Judge.

Would you please raise your right hand?

(Thereupon, the witness, Frank A. Sturgis was sworn.)

INTERROGATORIES OF THE WITNESS, FRANK A. STURGIS

MI. Rubin. Before we begin, Mr. Sturgis has

a number of friends out there, members of the press.

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He has no objections. They've asked if they could

be in attendance at this. I thought that I would ask,

if it is permissible.

The Witness. I would like to correct my Attorney.

I'm sorry to do this to you. They're not my friends

because the press is not my friends.

MI. Rubin. Personal acquaintances.

Mr. Triplett. We full understand that.

Mr. Sturgis, it has been the custom and the

habit of this committee to conduct closed hearings.

And for that reason, I would point out to you that

it is not within the purview of this committee to

conduct open hearings at this time, and the press

would be excluded.

The Witness. Well, one reason why I suggested

that to my Attorney is to show that -- to give me

some credibility that I'm openly and honestly, even

in the past, where it pertains to the United States

Government, I have nothing to hide naturally. And

that's one of the reasons why my. Attorney and myself

asked that question.

Mr. Triplett.

We understand that. However, just

for the orderly conduct of the hearings we prefer to

have the

press excluded at this time.

Now as you are aware this proceeding is being

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transcribed and the transcript will be prepared of

the proceedings and it's my duty to advise you that

my name is William Triplett.

Pursuant to House Resolution 222 and Committee

Rule 4, I have been designated Counsel on behalf of

the committee to take statements under oath and

that's what we will be doing today.

For the record, you are Frank A. Sturgis.:

I S

that correct?

The Witness.' Yes, sir. My name is Frank Anthony

Sturgis legally. When I was born in Norfolk, Virginia,

I

was bornhwith the name Frank Angelo Fiorini. My

father's name was Angelo Anthony Fiorini.

My mother's

name was Mary Vona, V-o-n-a.

My mother remarried at

a later date which in turn, legally through the

courts in Norfolk, Virginia, my name was changed to

her new husband's name; to Frank Anthony Sturgis.

I kept my family name as much as I possibly coula.

Mr. Triplett. very good

And for the record, you are here to make a

statement of your own volition.

This is voluntary

and not under any compulsion. Is that right?

The Witness. Yes, sir, as I have done before

in the Senate Watergate Committee -- well; the Grand

Jury -- the Rockefeller Committee and any committee

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pertaining to anything, I have always went voluntairly.

I was not subpoenaed nor was it necessary to subpoena

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Mr. Triplett. That's right.

That was my next

question.

You're not here under subpoena, are you?

The Witness. No, sir.

Mr. Triplett.

And you do have Counsel present.

And for the record, would Counsel identify himself?

Mr. Rubin. Ellis Rubin, Miami, Florida.

member of the Florida and the Federal Bars.

MI. Triplett. Now at this time I'm going to hand

you a copy of the rules of the House Select Committee

on Assassinations, House Resolution 222, 433 and 760.

Mr. Rubin. Are we allowed to keep these?

Mr. Triplett.

YeS •

At this time I would request you, Mr. Sturgis,

and your Counsel, to read Rule Number 4 in the top

pamphlet in that package.

Mr. Rubin. Rule Number 4 is entitled, "Statements

Under Oath by Designated

Counsel."

Mr. Triplett. That's correct.

Mr. Rubin. Fine.

We've read Rule 4 and Mr.

Sturgis is aware of its contents.

Mr. Triplett. Very good.

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Now as I mentioned earlier, this entire

deposition will be transcribed and you, Mi. Sturgis,

and your Attorney, will be sent the original of this

deposition, the original transcription, and asked to

sign and verify it. And at that time we request you

return the signed and verified copy to the House

Select Committee on Assassinations.

If you have any changes in the transcript or

desire to make any changes, you should get in touch

with myself and we will make arrangements for you to

make the

changes and initial those changes that you so

desire to make, and that will have to be done before

a Federal Magistrate.

I would suggest at this time, possibly, Mr. Rubin,

that you might inform the press that it is a closed

hearing, since they're waiting outside.

Mr. Rubin. All right.

MI. Triplett. Now that the press has been

advised, one further matter.

Mr. Sturgis, I'm

n going to hand you a Xerox copy

of our Committee Document No. 06327. It's a letter

to the Chief Counsel and Stäff Director of the

Select Committee on Assassinations from the Legislative

Counsel of the Director of Central Intelligence regarding

your testimony:

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The Witness.

Fine. Can we have a copy of this

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Mr. Triplett.

We have a copy of this

for you.

Do you understand that letter? Do you have any

problems with it?

The Witness. No. I understand it..

As far

as I'm concerned there is no reason why I shouldn't

appear to testify.

MI. Triplett. That's correct.

MI. Sturgis, just a few clarifying questions.

What was the date and place of your birth?

The Witness. I was born December 9th, 1924 at

Norfolk, Virginia.

Mr. Triplett. And I believe you've already

stated your parents full names on the record.

The Witness. Yes.

Mr. Rubin. Don't volunteer anything. Just answer

his questions. It'll go faster.

Mr. Triplett. And again, I don't know if you

told us what was the date you changed your name?

The Witness. I don't recall, but the Government

does have the records of when my name was changed in

Norfolk, Virginia.

Ms. Triplett. And what was the purpose for

changing your name?

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The Witness.

Well, two. One, because my mother

remarried a Sturgis; and secondly, I thought it was

convenient at that time because there were so many

Frank Firoini's in my family.

MI. Triplett. Just to make it very clear, I

believe on the official court records your former

name was listed as Frank Firoinio, ending in an "O".

Was that a clerical error?

The Witness. Well, I've always, since the day

I was

born, signed my name and knew my name

F-i-I-o-i-n-i.

Mr. Triplett. Where did you attend grammar

school?

The Witness. Holy Rosary Catholic School,

Germantown Philadelphia; Roosevelt Junior High,

Germantown Philadelphia; Germantown High School,

Germantown Philadelphia; later I went to William

and Mary College in Norfolk, Virginia, which is the

extension of William and Mary College.

Mr. Triplett:

And when did you attend William

and

Mary?

The Witness.

years.

Oh, again we're going back so many

It would be on record. The Government would

have that on record.

MI. Triplett. Well just roughly the year, if you

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can recall?

The Witness. I would say in the '40's, the

late '40's I would think, yeah, the late '40's.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

When were you first married?

The Witness. I got out of the Marine Corps in

1945.

I believe I was married in 1946.

Mx. Triplett.

And what was the maiden name

of your first wife?

The Witness. I forget off-hand.

Mr. Triplett. What was her first name?

The Witness.

You've got me in a blank moment.

MI.: Rubin.

It will come to him.

The Witness."' It'll come to me. I'm sorry.

Mr. Triplett.

How many times have you been

married?

The Witness. This is my third time.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

What was

the maiden name of your second wife?

The Witness. These experiences have been,

because of the particular time, were very unhappy

experiences with me. Like I say now, it's a complete

blank to me.

Mr. Triplett. Do you recall when and where you

married your second wife?

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The Witness. At Norfolk, Virginia. My second

wife at Norfolk, Virginia and my first wife I think

was in Carolina. South Hill, North Carolina, I believe

it was.

Mr. Triplett. And your first wife. Did you

divorce her?

The witness. My first wife? She died. My

second wife, we divorced. As a matter of fact I was

here and she applied for a divorce and I did not

contest it.

Mr. Triplett. And do you know where your second

Wife is presently located?

1002

The Witness.' No, I don't. I assume Norfolk,

Virginia.

MI. Triplett. And you remarried a third time?

The Witness.

Yes.

Mr. Triplett. And what was the maiden name of

your third wife?

The Witness. Hunt, H-ü-n-t.

Mr. Triplett.

And what is her first name?

The Witness...I call her Janet.

She calls

herself Jan Hunt.

Mr. Triplett., And when and where did you marry

her?

The Witness.

Here

in Miami, Florida.

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Mr. Triplett.

Approximately when?

The Witness. Oh, it's 15 years, I think. These

things are very minor things.

MI. Triplett. So that would be approximately

1963 you married her?

The Witness.

'63. Possibly '62. Sixteen,. 17

years.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

And you're still married to her?

The Witness. Oh, yes, sir, certainly. Very

happily married.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

When did you first enter the military service?

The Witness. I joined the United States Marine

Corps, volunteered, when I turned 17. Well, I was

17 years old, in Germantown Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

MI. Triplett. And

going back, approximately what

year was that when you were 17?

The Witness.

It would be 19 what, '42 I believe.

Yeah, 1942.

MI. Triplett. And what units were you in? Do

you recall?

The Witness. I believe so.

I took about seven weeks of basic training in

the Marine Corps at Paris Island, South Carolina. I

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got on the H. I. Allen, they sent me through the

Panama Canal; went to American Samoa. I was in a

training outfit there and I volunteered for the First.

Raider Battalion which was on Guadocanal. I was

sent to Guadocanal

to join the First Battalion, and I

stayed with the same Company until the end of the war.

So First Raider Battalion and then we increased.

We were losing the war then.. Our actions was commando

type activities.

The First Marine Battalion, the First Marine

Regiment to the First Marine Brigade to the Sixth

Marine Division, to the Tenth Army under the commana

of General Buckner, who was Army Commander of the

Tenth Army, which we made the invasion of Okinawa.

Mr. Triplett.

what rank did you attain in the

Marines?

The Witness.: Corporal. I was discharged -- well,

my rank fluctuated. And when I was discharged I

really forget.. I was a Corporal.

I think I was a

Corporal when I was discharged:

Mr. Triplett. You say Your rank fluctuated.

were you higher than a Corporal during times?

The Witness. Well, during the times you had

acting Sergeants and so forth. And being out in the

jungles and out in the islands there, like one time

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I went on a bombing raid over Bouganville that

was not supposed to go from Guadocanal, and when I

came back I, you know, lost my rank.. But these are

the fluctuations:

MI. Triplett.' What types of training did you

receive'in the Marines?

Did you receive any special

type of training?

The Witness

Well, the Marine Corps was a highly

specialized, well, a highly trained organization as

a whole.

But when I joined the Raider Battalion, we

were trained specifically to do behind the lines

activities.

For instances, assassinations, infiltrating

enemy encampments.

These are the types that we

did

because

we were such a small

outfit.

We only had

500

is and:

some men In

the batallion at a particular time,

and most of our activities were done by submarines

and destroyers, First world war destroyers., Because

we were losing the war, so we had to operate behind

the enemy lines.

MI. Triplett.

Okay.

Where did you receive this raider training?

The Witness.

On American Samoa:

"And the

training continually, naturally, as we went from

operation to operation. It was continuous

training

out in the Pacific.

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MI. Triplett. What type of discharge did you

receive from the Marines?

The Witness. Honorable discharge.

Mr. Triplett. What did you do after you were

discharged from the Marines as far as an occupation?

The Witness. I came home and because of the

influence of my family, the Fiorini family in

Norfolk, Virginia, I got on the Norfolk Police

Department.

I spent -- not at the beginning - but

I was a plain clothes police officer.. I did go

through training that we had which they called the

Police Academy training.

And from then I was working as manager of several

bars there in Norfolk, Virginia..

Mr. Triplett. Did you subsequently enter the

military service, any other military service?

The Witness. Yes. I was in the United States

Naval Air Reserve, stationed at Norfolk Naval Air

Station as a Radio Gunner there.

And eventually I

did receive an honorable discharge.

Mr. Triplett. When did you enter the Naval

Reserve?

The Witness. Oh, that was, I would say after

I got off the Police Department. I would think it

might have been in

'46 or '47. I'm not too sure of

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the date.

Mr. Triplett. Did I understand you correctly,

you were a radio gunner?

The Witness.. Yeah, in a PBY Squadron on the

Naval Air Station.

Mr. Triplett. What was your function as a

radio gunner?

The Witness. Well, we took our training with

the PBY's.

We learned radio. And weapons was no

problem because I had my basic training with the

Marines

as

far as weapons were concerned.

Mr. Triplett. And did you receive any special

training in the Naval Reserve?

The Witness: No, sir.. I was already prior

trained.

Mr. Triplett. What rank did you attain in the

Naval Reserve?

The Witness:

seaman, or whatever.

Mr. Triplett. Again, approximately when did

you enlist in the Naval Reserve and when were you

discharged?

i.f.

The Witness.

Honest, it's a complete blank.

You'd have to check with them, you know, the military

records.

Mr.

Triplett.

Okay:

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Roughly, how many years were you in the Naval

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Reserve?

The Witness. Oh, I would say I stayed with them

a couple of years. Maybe more, maybe less.

Mr. Triplett. And what type of discharge did

you receive?

The Witness. Honorable discharge.

Mr. Triplett. Did you subsequently enlist in

the Merchant Marine?

The

Witness.

Yes.

Mr. Triplett. And when did you enroll, or enlist

in the Merchant Marine?

The Witness. Again, it's so many years back.

Mr. Triplett.

Early '50's; late '50's; early

'60's?

The Witness.

It could be, yes. I would say

Could be the late '40's maybe, or

in the '50's:

early '50's.

Mr. Triplett:

And what kind of training, if

any, did you receive in the Merchant Marines?

The Witness.

Actually no training at

all. Because

I did join the union.: In order to get in the Merchant

Marine you had to be cleared.

You had to get a U.s.

Customs clearance, a security clearance, which I

did get that security clearance. And I was part of

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the union, the Maritime Union in Norfolk, Virginia.

And through them I naturally received certain jobs

on Merchant ships.

MI. Triplett. Okay:

In line with those jobs, did you have occasion

to travel?

The Witness. Yes,

sir.

Mr. Triplett. And do you recall, or can you

list some of the ports you traveled to during that

period?

The Witness. Well, I'll give you one in particular.

I went to theone up in Greenland, which was one of our

biggest air bases that we had, about 200 miles this

side of the North Pole. I'm trying to remember the

name of it. I forget the name

of it, but it's one

of our biggest bases we had, military bases we had

in Greenland.

MI. Triplett. And did you have occasion to

travel back and forth between this country and Europe

in the Merchant Marine?

The

Witness.

Yes.

Mr. Triplett. Approximately how long were

you in the Merchant Marine?

The Witness. Not too long. I'd say possibly

a year, a year and a half, approximately.

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Mr. Triplett. And what was your reason for

leaving the Merchant Marine?

The Witness. The situation, international

situation with the United States Government as far

as shipping was concerned, was getting very bad. They

were doing it more with foreign carriers than they

were with American carriers, and naturally American

unions were a little upset with that. So I could

not make a living really, by staying with the Merchant

Marine.

Mx. Triplett. I see.

And after you left the Merchant Marine, what

did you do as far as an occupation is concerned?

The Witness. Well, I had a night club that

I was involved with called the Top Hat Night Club

on Virginia Beach, Virginia. I also was part owner

in that. MI. Arthur Bass was my patron and also my

partner. I had a bar on Main Street in Norfolk called

the -- I was part owner in that.

It's been so many

years ago.

Anyway, before I went with him to the night club

I was part owner at this bar and then when we sold

the bar that's when I started to

go to the Merchant

Marine thing.

And one of the reasons why I quit the Merchant

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Marine was because he

convinced me to go into the

business of the night club. Now it's coming back.

Mr. Arthur Bass.

So I went into the night club business with him.

This was another reason why I discontinued going with

the Merchant Marine.

MI. Triplett. And how long were you in the night

club business with Mr. Bass?

The Witness. I imagine a good couple of years.

Mr. Triplett. And following that, did? you

subsequently enlist in the United States Army?

The Witness. les, I did.

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Mr. Triplett. Approximately when, if you recall.

did you enlistein the United States Army?

The Witness. I imagine it would be in the

50' s.

This was at the time of the russian blockade of Berlin.

When I joined the Army, I signed up in Norfolk,

Virginia. I believe it was Norfolk, Virginia.

SNI

went to Fort Dix, New Jersey. I passed my OCs

test

and they were going to send me to Officer Candidate

school, and I asked

if they had one in Europe and

they said yes, they did. And they lied to me.

So when I went to Europe I found out that the

Army lied to me and they did not have an Officer

Candidate School there. That I would have to

stay in

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you know, à year in order to come back to the States

and go to the Officer Candidate School back here.

So I immediately asked to go overseas and a few

weeks later - I did not have to get training because

of my prior training and because of my combat experience,

I was sent to, I believe it was Marburg (phonetic),

Germany; which was a repo depot there, a replacement

outfit there, where they sent me to Berlin, Germany,

and I was with the Fourth Regiment there, and I was

with General Clay's Honor Guard.

Mr. Triplett. What was your purpose in asking

to be sent to Europe?

The Witness.

• To

go through Officer Candidate

School.

Mr. Triplett. Well, Officer Candidate School

was available here, but you said you wanted to go to

OCS in Europe. What was your purpose in wanting to

go to Europe?

The Witness. Well, I wanted to go back to Europe

because I had been to. Europe before and I liked

Europe. And I felt well, I'd prefer to go to Europe

and I was having problems with my first wife at that

time and I just wanted to get away from the United

States.

Mr. Triplett. What rank did you attain in the Army?

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The witness. I was discharged a PFC in the Army.

Oh, when I left Berlin, Germany, I was having

a very close affair with a young lady there who happened

to be going with a Colonel on General Clay's Staff,

so I was immediately sent out of Berlin back to Marburg.

which in turn they sent me to Heidleburg, Germany,

which was headquarters, UCOM Headquarters, and I was

assigned to Armed Security Agency, which I had the

clearance for.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

Besides Marburg, Heidleburg and Berlin, were

you stationed in any other places in Europe?

The Witness. Not that I recall. I went other

places in Europe, but these were the places that I

was actually stationed.

Mr. Triplett.

Now will you again describe, you

say you had security clearance at Heidleburg?

The Witness. Oh, you would have to have security

clearance with the Armed Service Security Agency.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

Exactly what were your functions there?

The Witness. Well my functions were, I was

under command of, I believe he was a First Sergeant,

who was directly in command of a Colonel and my

functions was typing, which if you asked me to type

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today I couldn't do because I haven't typed in so

many years. I received training for typing

at that

time before I went there. And one of my duties was

to type the "C" numbers on all classified and top

secret documents that we burned in the incinerator.

And this stuff naturally was activities concerning

our headquarters, the UCOM Headguarters in Europe.

Mr. Triplett. What functions did you have

besides typing?

The Witness. That's it.

Mr. Triplett. Did you receive any specialized

training in the Army?

The Witness.

My

training in the Army, as I

went along, was being trained again. Basic military

training was not necessary because of my past military

training, but specialized training. For instance

like Army Security. Agency. As you went along you

received that particular type of training.

Mr. Triplett. Well, I presume you were trained

in something other than typing. What, if anything,

were you trained in within the confines of Army

security?

The Witness. Just to

type these "C" numbers

of the classified documents and top secret documents

that were going to be destroyed by fire in the

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incinerator.

That was my particular job and that was

it.: I don't think anybody needed specialized training

to do

that.

Mr. Triplett.

General Clay's Honor Guard?

You also mentioned you were in

The Witness.. Yes.

MI. Triplett.

What exactly was the Honor Guard

and what was your function in it?

The Witness.

Well, the function of the Honor

Guard was a specialized group of military personnel

that was trained specifically that when any high

ranking officer or political VIP that came into the

area, at the airport to military bases, the Honor

Guard would perform for these particular people.

Mr. Triplett.

So it was more a show function

rather

than a military function?

The Witness. Military, right. You would call

it a military function if a General came in lyou know.

That would be a show military function for them.

It

looked good.

MI. Triplett.

Okay. Let's get into another

area:

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any United States Government Intelligence Agency, whether

it be FBI, CIA, Military Intelligence or whatever.

Have

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you had any relationships with any of those agencies

I enumerated, or any other Federal Government

intelligence agencies?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

MI. Triplett. And what was your first contact

with any?

The Witness.

Well, I was in the mountains in

Cuba with Fidel Castro. My first contact with any

was with the Vice-Consul in Santiago, Cuba. One

of my missions when I came out of

the mountains was

to deliver

some secret messages to the underground

in Santiago.

When I was in Santiago I always went to the

Casa Grande Hotel, which was the biggest hotel there,

and one evening, which was on a Friday, I sat down

to play bingo and an American came to my table and made

contact with me and was playing bingo, and he identified

himself as we went along. in a few hours, he told me

was the Vice-Consul. Also, he was the Chief of the

CIA stationed there in Santiago.

And he questioned me and so forth. This is where

first started to spy on Castron forces for the .

United

States Government.

Mr. Triplett. So that was your first contact?

The Witness.. Yes, sir.

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And that would have been what,

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The Witness.

I would say it was 1958,

approximately. Yes. Now what month I don't know,

sir.

Mr. Triplett. And this was while Batista was

still in power in Cuba?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett. Do you recall the name of the

Vice-Consul?

The Witness. I did have the name of the vice-

Consul. It's on record. His name is on record.

MI. Triplett. Would

it be Clark Wollen?

The Witness. No, sir. No. MI. Wollen, I

believe, was the Consul, but the Vice-Consul -- as

a matter of fact this gentleman is retired today.

It'll come to me. Unfortunately I didn't know what

questions you were going to ask me, otherwise I would

have written it down because I have it at home. I

would have written down his name.

Mr. Triplett. But in any event you could provide

that name later to MI. Fonzi or myself?

The Witness.

Oh, certainly. As a matter of

fact I think I spoke to Mr. Fonzi before, spoke to

him about him. I

gave him the name. But I could

give Mr. Fonzi his name. No problem.

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Mr. Triplett.. Okay.

While you were gathering this information

presumably in 1958, were you paid for these services?

The Witness. I was offered money, but I refused

it and the reason why I refused it was the fact that

I felt that in helping my country at that particular

time, I had my own resources which was with Castro.

Money was

3 no problem, so I didn't feel that I needed

to take money from my own Government who I voluntarily;

when he asked, to go ahead and spy for the United

States Government there.

Mr. Triplett. So you rejected any money at

that time?

The Witness.: Actually, yes.

Mr. Triplett.: When did you first arrive in

Cuba? *

The Witness. Well, my connection with the --

oh, my uncle, after I got out of the Marine Corps,

I came to Miami to live and my uncle married a Cuban

lady, a young lady, at that time, whose family was

here in exile. This is how I had

l a source -- naturally

I had a family, or married into my family. This

was on the Vona side.

'My uncle's name was Angelo

Vona. He married this young lady, which he's still

married to today. I have not been in contact with them

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for a number of years.

I don't know where he's at.

And my connection with the Cuban colony was through

his family.

Fidel left Mexico, came to the United States,

and I met Fidel here in the United States. This

is how I got involved in the Cuban --

Mr. Triplett.

(Interposing) This was after you

got out of the Marines?

The Witness

Yeah.

Mr. Triplett. Would that' be before you went

into the..Army?

The Witness. Yeah. The first contact with the

Cuban exile people.

Then I met Carlos Prio, the ex-President of

Cuba and I had an association with him.

As time went

on, I believe it was, it might have been '56, or '57,

as :

time went

on I tried to convince President Carlos

prio that the people, his gorilla force in the

mountains of Cuba was not very active. That I felt

that it might be a good idea for me to go there to

help in the training of the gorillas and to step up

the military actions there.

He agreed, but that wasn't the question.

The

question that he

needed was naturally the arms that

the gorilla forces needed to fight against the Batista

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the Castro forces because he wanted to know what was

going on with the Castro forces because he was, at

times,

helping finance Fidel Castro.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

This was a decision between you and. Carlos Prio?

The Witness.

yes.

Mr. Triplett. So when did you finally go to

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The Witness. Well, let's make it 1957. Within

that range.

MI. Tripiett. And where did you reside then

when you arrived in Cuba?

The Witness. I made contact directly with the

Catholic Church. I went to Santiago and I was in

touch with certain people in the Church there who

took me personally - I'm sorry, they didn't take

me personally -- they toid me to go to Motonzos.

TO

90: to the Catholic Church there, which I made contact

with a priest there who took me out in the countryside

to meet a Cuban fellow who was the manager of the

coca cola plant there in Montonzo. And I stayed at

his place where he took me to a farm house this side

of the mountains where I waited for a cuban patrol:

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When I say Cuban, I mean a gorilla patrol, to pick

me up and take me into the mountains to see Fidel.

•So I did not see Fidel for a period of about

oh, I would say seven or eight days later, that I came

across Fidel. I forget the name of the small -- in

the mountains -- a small

conglomerate of houses that

were along the mountain side and this is where I

met Fidel again. Because remember, I met Fidel in

Miami, Florida before he went to Cuba.

MI.

Triplett. All right.

Once you met Fidel, I presume you joined up

with him, or stayed with him?

The Witness.

Well, not exactly joined with

him because my sympathies were with the Cuban exiles

against the Dictator Batista.

It was decided later with Prio that I would

go ahead and join Fidel's group of people.

Mr. Triplett. And prior to Fidel taking over

and throwing out Batista, what functions did you

perform for Mr. Castro?

The Witness. Helped train the gorillas in the

mountains; went on missions, secret missions for

messages; bought guns and equipment for the Castro

forces; delivered these guns and equipment to the

Castro forces.

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When the revolution was finished, I went to

Havana about a

week later.

MI. Triplett. Let me interrupt and back up

here.

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You say you went on secret missions.

Were these

the secret missions you referred to earlier as being

directed by the Vice-Consul, of were these

missions on behalf of Fidel Castro?

secret

The Witness.. Yeah, these secret missions on

behalf of the gorilla forces. But they were aware

of most of my activities.

Mr. Triplett.

All right.

And once Fidel Castro was victorious, what

functions did you perform at that time?

The Witness. Well, I went a week later

to

Havana and I changed over from the Cuban Army --

rather the Rebel Army -- to the Cuban Air Force.

My friend, Pedro Diez Leaz, who on one of

the other missions during this period of time, him

and I left Santiago and came over.

That's how we

made contact and we

got to be very friendly.

Pedro was nominated Commander-in-Chief of the

«Cuban Air Force. I was made the Director of Security,

which is a high ranking intelligence position.

Now - go ahead -- this was my position at that

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Mr. Triplett. When you say Director of

secutiry --

The Witness.

(Interposing) For the Cuban Air

Force, or the FAR which is the Revolutionary Air Force.

Mr. Triplett. And what were your functions as

Director of Security for the Air Force?

The Witness. I maintained all of the security

all the military bases inside of Cuba.. I set up

an intelligence

apparatus for Castro outside of Cuba,

namely in the United States

which in turn I notified

the Government of the Agents that were being set up

here.

Set up an intelligence apparatus

here in the

United States through the Cuban Air Force.

At the same time the American Government was

advised of these Cuban agents working in the south

Florida area.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

So that was not clandestine as far as

the

American Government was concerned?

The Witness.

Certainly it was clandestine.

Mr. Triplett. Well, was the American Government

aware of the names and activities of these Cubans?

The Witness. Sure.

Igave them the names of

the agents that was being formed and sent here to spy

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'for the Cuban Government.

Mr. Triplett. And was Fidel Castro or Pedro

Diez Lanz aware that you were providing this information

to the United States Government?

The Witness. I'm not sure whether they were.

No, I don't think so because they did not know of

my contact with the Embassy at that time.

I was advised to make contact with Colonel

Nichols. Colonel Nichols was the military attache

for the Cuban Air Force.

Mr. Triplett. And is he the one to whom you

provided the names of these agents?

The Witness. Not only provided the names of

these agents but also the various conspiracies that

were taking place within Havana, of people from

Costa Rica, from Panama, people from the Dominican

Republic, people from Hati. The various central

and South American countries came there trying to

make

contact directly with Fidel or members of the

hierachy, which I was part of this. But they themselves

could not get direct contact with Fidel which was

very very difficult because of the turmoil that was

going on there.

I was contacted and I was involved in the

"conspiracies to overthrow and send gorilla forces into

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the Central American countries and these Caribbean

things which again the American Government was being

advised through me.

Mr. Triplett. Were any Castro agents arrested

as a result of this information you were giving the

American Government?

The Witness. No, sir, and I'll tell you the

reason why. Because I didn't find out until years

later that through many of the meetings that we had

had in Havana at the very beginning, many of us

suspected that the American Embassy was

helping in

guiding Fidel Castro, especially CIA.

At one of the meetings I was asked to bypass

"the Embassy and

go directly to Washington, D.C. to

make contact with Mr. Hoover because being that we

were strongly anti-communist and because of the

information that many of our people had and the

contacts that they had pertaining to the Embassy,

had the sympathies of many of the Embassy personnel

and also of the CIA personnel assisting Castro which,

at that time, we didn't know this definitely. But

we suspected it. Later we found it was a true fact.

So I did bypass with information pertaining to

the Castro brothers and

pertaining to many of the

Communists who were being put in various positions by

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the Castro brothers, which we were définitely against.

So I went on a special mission to Washington.

Made contact with

the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

I believe - I did not speak with Mr. Hoover personally

but I believe I spoke to his right-hand man.

Mr. Triplett.

Do you recall his name?

The Witness. No, sir, I don't.

But it should

be on record.

MI. Triplett. Would it be Sullivan of DeLoach

(phonetic)? Do those names --

The Witness. (Interposing) No, sir. It's been

so many years I don't recall.

Mr. Triplett. Olsen?

The Witness.. I don't recall.

But later on Pedro Diez and Marcus Diez Lanz

themselves had, either one of them had contact,

personal contact with Mr. Hoover.

MI. Triplett. Now when was this you went to

Washington?

The Witness.

oh,

gee, I'm not sure whether

it was February of 1959 or not.

•I'm not sure.

January, February or March. One of those three months.

But I'm sure it was immediately in February.

Mr. Triplett. And still at this time you were

at least outwardly working with and for the Fidel

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The Witness. Right. At the same time working

with the Embassy and trying to go ahead and find out

who you could trust and who you couldn't trust.

But that particular time when I went to Washington,

nobody at the Embassy knew that I went directly to

Washington•

Mr. Triplett. Now when you say you were working

for the Embassy, who precisely at that time were you

working with?

The Witness. Well let me say I had an

association.

I'm sorry, because sometimes I

get overt.

My association with the Embassy was through Colonel

Nichols who was the military attache at the Embassy.

Mr. Triplett. And was there anybody else also?

The Witness... I beg your pardon?

Mr. Triplett. Was there anybody else you

were associating with in your capacity?

The Witness. The only one I had contact with

was Colonel Nichols

MI. Triplett. All right.

The Witness. I went to the Embassy several

times. A document, which I'm sure Pedro oI Marcus

Diez Lanz has, in order to cover my association with

the Embassy, named me -- I forget how it is again --

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named me. the contact between the Cuban Air Force and

the American Embassy, in order to protect me being at

the Embassy if Cuban Intelligence found out.

Mr. Triplett. But this document was merely a

subterfuge, is that what you're telling us?

The Witness.

Yes. So in case the Cuban

Intelligence Service wanted to know what I, as

Director of Security; was doing at the Embassy, I

had a document that it was an official visit because

of the Air Force and the American Air Force mission

that was there at the time.

Mr. Triplett. As a matter of fact, at that

time, what was

the nature of your association with

Clark Wollen?

The Witness. Well, Clark Wollen was down in

Santiago.

When I left Santiago, that was it. I

finished with them.

Then my contact was with Nichols

in Havana.

And to be honest with you, the Chief of Station,

which was

the Vice-Consul, because Clark wollen was

the Consul, the American Consul there, and I don't

believe -- again I'm going back so many years -- I

don't believe my contact was with wollen.

I believe

my contact

was with the Vice-Consul and again I'm

trying to remember his name. Anderson comes to my mina,

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but I don't know whether that was his name or not.

Again, I have it at home and I can turn it over to

MI. Fonzi.

Mr. Triplett. Could it have been Jim Knowles?

The Witness.

No, sir. Jim Knowles worked out

•of the American Embassy.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

DOES

the name Stewart ring a bell?

The Witness. Jack Stewart? No, sir. I know

who you're talking about. He worked out of the

Embassy.

MI. Triplett. Did you have occasion to recruit

or enlist the support of other people in this

intelligence gathering activity?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett. And what would be the correct

designation? Recruiting? Enlisting support? Asking

for help? How would you describe it?

The Witness. Well, I would describe it as

making contact with people within the Cuban military,

the Cuban political and even the American colony that

was there.

Naturally my friends Pedro and Marcus Diez Lanz

are. very pro-American and they had the right contacts

with a number of people in the American Embassy

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including the Ambassador. And I would say -- well,

can't speak for them because I'm not sure whether

they had direct contact through me or to themselves

with the Chief of Station at the American Embassy.

Mr. Triplett. Any other people besides Pedro.

and Marcus Diez Lanz that you recall?

The Witness.

That I asked for help in the

intelligence gathering?

Mr. Triplett. Yes. Geraldine Shamma.

She

lives in Hollywood, Florida. She was turned over

to Major Van Horne (phonetic). She worked with

Major Van Horne in the American Embassy.

As a matter of fact this woman here had a close

contact with me when she was working in Havana. We

had the Brickell House here on Brickell: Avenue that

the MRR was using. We all gathered there. She had

a small apartment in the back of the Brickell House,

a safe house. And she was traveling back and forth

"to Havana. And she was later arrested and given a

ten year sentence for spying.

Served three and a

half years in Guandhi (Phonetic) prison, came over

here to the United States.

Geraldine and I have been very very close. And

unfortunately, physically, this prison sentence that

she received hurt her very bad both mentally and

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physically.

She was of good service to this country:

Mr.: Triplett.

In the

same line, regarding your

contacts with the American Embassy, did you have any.

contacts with Colonel Kail?

The Witness. I don't recall. I spoke to a

number of people, you know, who were attached to

the Embassy and I honestly don't recall certain agents:

You must understand one thing. When I was

associated myself with Colonel Nichols, I received

bits and pieces from Colonel Nichols that many of

the people -- not many -- his words were somewhat like;

you can't trust some of the people in CIA there.

• AS

went along I found out that CIA did help Fidel, guide

him into power. The Communists,: Cuban Communists Party

did make a couple of attempts to kill Fidel and I

believe that CIA'was advising Fidel of what was going

on and so forth. They were very pro-communist, these

agents. Jim Knowles, to me, was one of them. The

"Station Chief.

As a matter of fact Ambassador Smith accused,

you know; the Chief of

Station

at

a meeting with

• the

other agents of, you know, being pro-communist by

having a close association with the Castro brothers.

Mr. Triplett.

When you're talking about

Ambassador Smith, are you referring to Ewing Smith?

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The Witness. Yes.

MI. Triplett. Did you have any contacts with

him directly?

The Witness. No, sir.

Mr. Triplett. Were you aware that Colonel Kail

was in the CIA?

The Witness.

No, sir. Like I say the name

doesn't, you know, you must understand in intelligence

people use code names.

Mr. Triplett. Right. Likewise from other

resources you do learn their real names.

The Witness. Sometimes. And sometimes you

don't, you know. You know, like people down here,

over a period of years, if you still maintain contact,

you know, you do recall because something will come

up and you say oh, I remember you, you were working

this particular thing because they'll come up with

a story and then you'll know that they have worked

in

that particular position.

MI. Triplett. Other than providing information

for Colonel Nichols, or the CIA or what have you"at

that time, were you performing any other functions

on behalf of the American Government or Colonel Nichols?

The Witness. Just that.

Notifying the Government

of the

conspiracies." For instances, there were forces

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being prepared, the Air Force was involved in it,

where there were aircraft on our ramp with no

designation, you know, no number, insignias and so

forth. They were just plain aircraft. The numbers

were taken off, the insignias were taken off these

"aircraft that were going to be involved in certain

invasions

of certain countries. For instance, the

• Dominican Republic and also Panama.

And these invasions did occur and they did

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Bill Morgan, who I tried to recruit for the

American Government, which I gave a list to Nichols

of people that I felt would be in sympathy with the

American

Government, would help intelligence wise.

Naturally they have their own means of making contact.

If it isn't directly through me, they make their own

contact of these assets that would be assets to,

you know, American Intelligence. And Bill wanted

me to be involved in several of these conspiracies.

And one was the Panama Canal. I told him I thought

he was crazy and he said look, I'll be the overall

commander and I want you to be the second in command

of this expedition that is being formed to invade

Panama.

And if I'm not mistaken, later the invasion was

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sent to

Panama which naturally failed..

But this is the type of things that I was doing.

MI. Triplett. You say you tried to recruit :

William Morgan?

The Witness. Well, I told Nichols that William

Morgan, I

thought at that time, would be an asset to

intelligence.

Mr. Triplett. Were you involved, or aware of

any attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro while you

were

still in Cuba?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett.

The Witness.

Were you involved in any?

Yes, sir.

MI. Triplett.

And when did those occur?

The Witness. Well, I don't recall the exact

month because of the confusion.

It was very

difficult at that time because I had to stay alive,

number one.

• C:

Marita Lorenz, I made contact with, I think

maybe in February of the beginning of March. She

was Fidel's mistress.

And I thought, you know, like

well she's an American and I didn't know too much of

her background at that time because I was hearing some

information through my people, through Fidel's people

that Fidel was living with her. She went to work

as

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his secretary.. I knew that she was an American,

not knowing her background. Her mother was American

and her father was German working for the Commodore,

I think, but the German Government, but this cruise

ship bit.

But I made an approach to Marita and the

approach was successful. I had to be very very

careful. She could have gotten

me killed. And in

making an approach to her; I did recruit her to go

ahead and do some spying for me, like I did

Geraldine

Shamma.

And also

some of my friends in Cuba, who

naturally we were all against Castro because we knew

about the Communist infiltration and what was going

on before I went to Washington. There were some

conspiracies going on to kill Fidel and I was

involved in the conspiracies... And I told Colonel

Nichols, you know, about this.: I said hey, you know,

like this guy here is a Communist and he's even tried

to put Communist people into the Air Force, and I'm

trying to keep them out under orders of Marcus

Diez Lanz. And I almost got myself killed one

day

because a Jimmy Gentry (phonetic), who was very close

to Raul Castro and who was a pilot, made some very

derrogatory remarks against Pedro Diez Lanz, and said

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he would kill Pedro because Pedro was very anti-

communist, and he pulled his gun on me and I in turn

took his .45

away from him and marched him to the

Air Force office of Pedro. And naturally I ran him

off the base.

So there was friction there against

Raul Castro. But Fidel was more diplomatic and

against us, many of the military commanders who helped

him, who was in high positions,

so Fidel had to go

ahead and smooth things over. But he knew who was

"against him.

MI. Triplett. Okay.

On how many occasions were you aware of -- well,

strike that.

On how many occasions were you involved in plans

or attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro?

The Witness. Well, I would say -- well, there

were numerous plots that I was involved in. And I

would say the most serious plots -- I'm talking about

the real

serious ones that I was involved in -- was

about three.

Mr. Triplett. Now you mentioned Geraldine

Shamma and Marita Lorenz. Other than those

two,

were other people involved in these plots?

The Witness... Well; Geraldine Shamma was not

involved in any plots in particular to kill Fidel Castro.

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She was strictly intelligence. Strictly intelligence.

I've asked Marita Lorenz to be involved with

me if and when the time came.

I was told, well okay, unless we get the word

from Washington, don't do anything. But at the same

time I had meetings with military commanders who

wanted to kill him.

Mr. Triplett. These were Cuban military

commanders, or American?

The Witness.

No. They were Cuban military

commanders who wanted to kill Fidel and who were

trying to, you know, devise a way. And I offered

like, hey, I've got command of the military police,

which I was personally training these people. See,

at the same time being Director of Security, same

time spying over here, same time being involved in

all these damn conspiracies, you know, so I had a

hell of a time being involved in all of these things.

And so I suggested, you know, like hey, Fidel

comes to the Air Force Base.

If he goes someplace

in the country he flies in with a helicopter. He

comes over, he sees me, he hugs me, you know, and

he has meetings on the second floor of the headquarters

Air Force Headquarters. Hey, supply me with plastic

explosives. I'll kill him right there, you know,

on

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the second floor.. Or if you want me to stop him

outside the gate I'll stop him outside the gate.

Mr. Triplett. Now who are you making these

suggestions to?

The Witness:

Colonel Nichols.

Mr. Triplett.. Colonel Nichols?

The Witness. Yeah.

Mr. Triplett. And this again, just to

clarify it and make sure we have a good record,

this was all during the period you were an officer

in the Cuban Air Force?

The Witness. Yes. This was the early part of

1959.

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MI. Triplett. Okay.

And you mentioned a little earlier I believe

that you discussed this possibility of killing Fidel

Castro with Marita Lorenz in February of 1959?

The Witness.

well, that's when I first met

her, in February.

So it might have been in March

because I had to get, you know, I don't just come

out when I just meet her, you know, I

had to gain

her confidence.

Because it was a very ticklish

situation, and she was

crazy about Fidel. This is

the thing.

Mr. Triplett. Putting all this in context though,

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Fidel Castro took over in Cuba January Ist, 1959.

In

relation to that date, when did you first become

disenchanted with Fidel Castro and when did you first

have a suspicion that he was a Communist?

The Witness. All of us -- I'm talking about

my friends like Commander Ricardo Lauria (phonetic),

Commander Hubamartis (phonetic):, Commander Pedro

Diez Lanz, Commander Marcus Diez Lanz, myself and

other commanders, had various meetings all over

Havana secretly. And I would say that by the time

of February, 1959, it was definitely decided, because

"of all the activities that was

going on with the

various top Communist people, that Raul was trying

to get into the military. And so far he couldn!t

get them into the Air force because I was running

them off, you

see. But we suspected and damn well

knew that Fidel was a Communist

and working with

the Communist Party.

Also by February we suspected that CIA was

guiding Fidel also in this thing.

This is why I was sent -- it might have been

February or March -- I was sent directly to Washington.

To bypass the Embassy.

Mr. Triplett. You were sent there by whom?

The Witness. By Pedro Diez Lanz and Marcus and

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Ricardo Lauria, to go to Washington and give a list

of

names of all the Communist agents directly to the

FBI. Bypass that damn Embassy.

Mr. Triplett. If you could give a reason, what

would be the reason for the failure of any attempts

on Fidel Castro's life at that time?

The Witness. Well, I would say that the

individual persons that were being used in order to

go ahead and kill him. I was in the best position in

the world to go ahead and really kill him, if I was

in charge of killing Fidel. I was in

the best

position because I could have stopped him right at

that gate there. Every time Fidel would come in, he

would come in in a convoy. I would stop the convoy

because I was out there one day when I was inspecting

and I could have killed everybody. Because

I had

people and I trained people, you know, to check the

roofs, the main street, the main entrance of the Air

Force Base.

We checked the roofs out, and

I could

have had machine gunners up there with hand grenades

and machine guns and i could have wiped that whole

god-damned convoy out. Could have killed everybody.

Mr. Triplett. But you apparently were not

in charge: You did not have

the green light.

who,

if anybody, was in charge?

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The Witness. Right. Absolutely I did not

have the green light.

See, my loyalities were divided. To be very

honest with you, my loyalities at that time were

divided and I'm sorry they were divided because I

would have spit at the American Embassy, believe

me.

If I knew

then what I know today I would have

spit at the American Embassy and I would have said

the hell with the American Embassy and everybody

there, see. And I would have listened to my friends

and I would have killed Fidel.

But because I was an American, my decision

was more toward the Americans than my own friends,

which I should have went along with my friends. I

would have killed that dirty bastard.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

But who specifically told you not to, if

anybody?

The Witness. Nichols said don't do anything.

Leave him alone until we

get word from Washington,

and that's it.

So trying to be a

good American, forget it.

Mr. Triplett. When did you finally leave

Cuba?

The Witness.

June the 30th of 1959, because of

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a meeting that

I had secretly with the Second Chief

of the Cuban Intelligence, Army Cuban Intelligence.

His name was Sangenis. I have been friends with the

Sangenis family for years. And he asked to speak

with me:

He sent

someone over to speak with me. And

I went across the street - I forget the name of

the restaurant across the street, I believe it was

across the street from the Havana Hilton. . It was at

night time because we sat in a dark corner of the

restaurant and he

said,

"Frank, Raul Castro suspects

you're working with American Intelligence.

So me

a favor.

When you leave here, pretend you don't know

me

That's it. Get your ass out of Cuba tonight,

now..

Because if he picks you up he's going to kill

you."

Mr. Triplett.

And as a result of that you

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The Witness.

I dian't leave until days later.

I went against what he said.

I didn't leave for days

later. As a matter of fact, Pedro Diez Lanz, with

al1

the troubles he was having with the castro brothers,

he was hiding, secretly the

last month. This

was in

June.

And I went to the American Embassy to try to

get him, to get, what do you call it in the American

Embassy when a person goes in the Embassy to protect

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themselves, santuary, asylum in the American Embassy.

You know they refused? They refused Pedro Diez Lanz

going into the Embassy. Here's a guy that respected

this country, respected this Government.

At that

time the guy was risking his life, like we all were,

for the American Government, we thought.

But there was a betrayal and the betrayal came

out of that God-damn Embassy right there. And here

like the dummy that we were at that time, trying to

go ahead and

notify the American Government, trying

to go ahead and help the American Government,

•all

the American Government was doing to us was

screwing

uS.

Believe me.

Mr. Triplett. When you say there was a betrayal,

are you able to pinpoint any specific person?

The Witness.

I would say the CIA Station Chief

in the American Embassy

MI. Triplett. And do you know who that was at

that time?

The Witness.

to be honest with yoU.

That was " I didn't know

the man

I've got his name. I can

turn it over. I'm

n getting a mental block again. I

can turn it over to Mr. Fonzi who the Station Chief

was.

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People like this God-damn David Phillips who was

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there,, that pro bastard son-of-a-bitch. Excuse me.

That pro Communist bastard son-of-a-bitch.. I dislike

these people very much for what they did to us in

Cuba and which they continued to do in the Bay of

Pigs invasion. They're the same people that got

involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion and betrayed us

again, you know, which cost people's lives: And oh,

my mind sometime's gets screwed up. But where were we

anyway?

Mr. Triplett.: I was asking you if you knew

who specifically, but apparently you don't have a

name at the moment. Let's move along now.

Once you returned to

the United States '-

The Witness. (Interposing) That was June the

30th, yeah.*

Mr. Triplett. Were you contacted by any

representative of the CIA or the Federal Government

for a debriefing or anything of that nature?

The Witness.

No, sit. No; sir.

MI. Triplett. After you left Cuba, did anybody

approach you to perform services or gather information

on behalf of the CIA?

The Witness.

After I left Cuba?

Mr. Triplett.

Yes.

The Witness.

No, sir.

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Well, let me tell you what happened there.

I

had to arrange the escape óf Pedro Diez Lanz because

of the Embassy because they refused him aslyum, which

I resented bitterly. Marcus Diez Lanz also. All right

Meantime, at that time we thought CIA was still

all right, but we had our suspicions within the

Embassy.

Marcus Diez Lanz was helped by CIA later to get

out. This was, I would say, a month later. But when

I came over on June the 30th, I took two aircraft from

Cuba over here. One was a C-46D, that was in my name,

and a B-25 bomber that was in my name. Okay?

Now, so I had

to arrange to

get those airplanes

over here before I defected. I had meetings over there

with Pedro and so forth and I wanted to cause an

uprising there. I said look, I have command of

1,000 troops here at the Air Force Base. Let's get

hold of President Arukia (phonetic). I'll put 500

men around the Capital, the Presidential Palace, if

President Arukia will denounce Castro, you know, and

the Communists.

President Arukia said no. That Castro was

misguided and said no. Well, he was saving his own

ass is what he was doing.

But also I wanted to go ahead and destroy much

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of the Air Force Base. Because I asked Pedro, send

our pilots up in the air, get every airplane

we can

up in the air, get all our troops that we can, put

them in the transport planes that we have and

send

them over to the Isle of Pine. We grab the Isle of

Pine. We get the Batista prisoners that Fidel had

in the Isle of Pine prison. That would be the nucleolus

Of an army there. Because we could have took the island

and destroyed the base and our fighters and bombers

would attack Camp Columbia, try to get Arukia out

of the Palace and try to kill Fidel. By having a

military coup there, starting with us in the Aif Force

because we did have some manpower. But they turned

it down.

MI. Triplett. Again, these were the

people

at the Embassy that turned it down?

The Witness. I'm not sure the Embassy was

aware. At least they were not aware of this

particular operation that I wanted to do. They

were not aware through me.

Mr. Triplett. Okay..

Getting back to after

you returned to the United States.

To your knowledge, were you ever contacted by

any representatives of the CIA for any purpose?

The Witness.

Iwas contacted by an official of

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the Government because I was making arrangements here

to get a boat to go into Cuba and get Pedro out and

get Marcus out and his family.

I was told, Frank, leave it alone.

Don't touch

it because arrangements are being made by CIA to

get

them out.

MI. Triplett. Who approached you and told you

that?

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see..

The Witness. Oh, God, I don't know. Let me.

One possibility was -- I can't remember his

name.

He's in

Washington. No, it couldn't be him.

Shakter, Schenley (phonetic).

Mr. Triplett.

Schaklee (phonetic)?

The Witness.

It might have been Schenley,

Shackler. One of the two. Told me, stay here, don't

go anyplace:

Because I was arranging with Pedro.

Diez. Lanz'

half brother,

surgio Diez, to get a ship,

to get a boat at one of the yacht companies here..

yacht

brokers, because I went with him to get the

boat:

surgio got in the boat with somebody else, went

over to cuba and got Pedro and his wife out, smuggled

them here. The Government knew about it because

•this. was

the arrangements that we were

making to get

Pedro out, but they didn't want me personally to go.

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So what the half brother did with the boat, we

used it, they allowed Surgio to go but didn't want me

to go because I was an American and they knew Castro

would catch me.

Then CIA did make arrangements to get Marcus Diez

Lanz out because Marcus was in touch with an agent in

Cuba, a CIA agent.

And that agent, if you'd like to

know who he is, that was Bernard Barker.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

Now after you returned to the United States,

did you have any contact with any Castro Intelligence

Agents?

Here in the United States?

The Witness. No. At least not to my knowledge.

Because

some of the people we didn't know. No.

You would assume that Castro, with what people

we knew over here. If they were agents, would change

them around.

so no.:

We kept to ourselves.

The reison for that is, remember, we were

Cuban revolutionaries, all right? We helped overthrow

the Batista Government.

so the first group of

refugees that come over here were the Batista people,

or at least the people that were very sympathetic,

which they had

l reason to. leave there because Castro

was shooting everybody, which was wrong on his part.

So naturally when we came here we more or less 'kept

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to ourselves.

But as time went by we did start to associate

ourselves with certain, at least not myself, but

Pedro and Marcus, with certain people who were, you

know, of the Batista faction. And then myself later

on.

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Mr. Triplett. Did you receive any money or

"any pay from the CIA prior to the Bay of Pigs?

The Witness. I received -- well, not myself

personally.

But before the Bay of Pigs invasion, we

had a special flying group.

Mr. Triplett. When you say we, who?

The Witness.

Pedro Diez

Lanz, Marcus Diez Lanz

and myself, using my B-25. Now this is the same --

Mr. Triplett. (Interposing) how about the C-46?

The Witness. Well, that was not used. We

sold that eventually. That was not used in the Bay

of Pigs.

Mr. Triplett. This was your B-25?

The Witness.

Well let's say the B-25 was in

my name. Registered with the FAA in my name.

Mr. Triplett. Well, whose was it if it wasn't

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yours?

The Witness. Well, it was money that was paid

for by the revolution, you see, and naturally being

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part of the revolution

and being that the other

people were Cuban revolutionaries, they used my

name in order to be on the license. My name was

used because you couldn't get somebody that wasn't

an American citizen.

Mr. Triplett. Who else was there?

The Witness..

Just 'us.

Mr. Triplett. The three of you.

MarCUS Diez

Lanze, Pedro and --

The Witness. (Interposing) And myself.

well,

the money, before the Bay of Pigs invasion,

the monies that went to the repairs of the B-25, was

CIA money:

As a matter of fact 'I was told later while I

was in prison, by Howard, that Howard -- Howard Hunt

I'm talking about -- Howard Hunt said he did give

Barker $10,000 to turn over to Pedro to pay the

bills of the B-25.

I think we had an L. B: Smith

over here at 36th Street Airport being repaired.

And one of the things that the B-25 was going

to be used, which we were fixing the airplane up

because we were going to put on the tail of the B-25,

a long antennea that would be stretched out while

the aircraft was in flight with tape recordings and

radio equipment in the B-25 to broadcast propaganda

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in Cuba while the B-25 was in flight... This was one

of the operations. And the monies did come from CIA

for the repairs and the bill to the B-25.

Mr. Triplett. And did you know at that time it

came from the CIA?

The Witness. Certainly.

Sure. I didn't know

who it came from because the money

came from Barker.

Because I didn't know who Barker's boss was.

You must understand that a week before -- this

I found out through Howard Hunt while I was in prison --

a week before the invasion, Bernard Barker was the

assistant to Howard.

Howard, from what Howard told me, that he

disagreed with the policies of what was happening,

the change that was happening within, you know, the

groups, the CIA and the Revolutionary Council, because

he was

the political officer of the Revolutionary

Council. I had no contact with Howard Hunt. I never

knew Howard Hunti at all. I knew there was an Eduardo

and Eduardo was Barker's boss.

But he left the outfit and Barker was turned

over to a new CIA control Officer, I believe. And

Barker would not tell me.

I believe his new boss

was Jim Knowles.

Mr. Triplett. And what led you to believe that?

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I'm not sure really. I'll be

very honest with you, I'm not sure. I'm not sure

whether Howard Hunt told me that Barker's new boss

was Jim Knowles or not. Because you know, sometimes

you don't say things, you know.

I'm not sure.

But

Barker never told me who his new control officer was.

But I believe it was Jim Knowles.

Again, this B-25 was the same B-25 that Pedro

Diez Lanz and myself as pilots and Marcus

Diez Lanz

and another Cuban fellow by the name of Itchgoia

(phonetic) flew over on october the 21st of 1959,

over the City of Havana, and dropped several hundred

thousands of leaflets over that City. And several

•Cubans; I think maybe 31 or 33 Cuban people were

killed and wounded on that air raid that we did.

Mr.

Triplett. Dropping leaflets?

The Witness. Leaflets, yeah. Well, you see

we were 1,000 foot off the ground over the City and

the gunners from Cabana Fortress and the three B-26

fighter bombers tried to shoot us down and the shells

exploding killed or wounded 31 or 33 people. And

Fidel raised a lot of hell about it.

And as a matter of fact, charges were brought

against Pedro Diez Lanz in Federal Court here about

these things and it was thrown out a half hour later

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in court. A fact that they could not prove because

there was 2,000 Americans there at that time and

they watched us throw these leaflets out.

Mr. Triplett. Did you have occasion to purchase

any other B-25's other than this one?

The Witness.

No. That's the only B-25, and

the B-26 that was ever purchased. And that was in

my name, registered with the FAA, or at that time

I think it was the CAA, or whatever.

Mr. Triplett. Did you have any contact, or

have you had any contact with Rafeal Hanscomb?

The Witness. I don't know the man.

MI. Triplett. How about Ray Sanstrom?

The Witness. Yes.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

When was your contact and what was the nature

with Ray Sanstrom?

The Witness. Well, Ray Sanstrom is an Attorney

up in Fort Lauderdale:

Ray Sanstrom is also a pilot.

Ray Sanstrom, I believe, worked for CIA.

Mr. Triplett. What was the nature of your

contact?

The Witness. He was a lawyer. He still is a

lawyer:

MI. Triplett. Was he your lawyer? Did you

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to him for legal advice?

The Witness. Yes, I went to him for legal advice.

That's the type of association I had with Ray, for

legal advice.

Things that I would do and Cuba and

so forth.

MI •

Triplett.

Regarding your activities against

Castro?

The Witness.

Yes. That's right.

Mr. Triplett: Did you ever have any contact.

with Carlos Blanco?

(phonetic)

The witness..

Carlos Blanco?: That

sounds

like that Communist Carlos Blanco in Cuba. Carlos

Blanco.

The name sounds very familiar. I don't

recall.

You see many people that knew us in those days,

If you never had a close

association with them over

a period of time, you would forget. But the name

sounds familiar. I don't recall.

Mr. Triplett. How about Paul Bethel? (phonetic)

The Witness. I know Paul Bethel, yes.

Mr. Triplett. And what type dealings have you

had with Mr. Bethel?

The Witness.

None whatsoever.

But I know

Paul. I've spoken to Paul several times.

Mr. Triplett. Anything other than social

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conversations?

The Witness:: Cuba. Nothing social at any time.

It was strictly about Cuba.

MI. Triplett. Has he sought information from

you, or have you provided information to him?

The Witness.

No.

NO.

MI. Triplett. Your planned activities?

The Witness.

No.. Not with Paul, no.

Mr. Triplett. How about Manola Rebozo? (phonetic)

The Witness.

Oh, yes. Manola and I, I trained

him before the Bay of Pigs.:

Mr. Triplett. You trained him?

The Witness.

sure.

MI. Triplett. And have you been on any raids

with him or any other activities with him?

The Witness.

No. He was involved in the Bay

of. Pigs naturally: After that he went his

way and

I went my way, and he

got to be the Vice Mayor of

Miami.

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Mr. Iriplett. When did you first meet him?

The Witness.

well again, before the Bay of Pigs.

I imagine he came over to my house on 60th Court that

I had at that particular time, or the

group had. And

that's how "I met him and many other people that

eventually got to work for the agency.

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Mr Triplett.

How about Bernard Barker?

The Witness.

Yes, I met Barker.

Mr. Triplett. When?

The Witness. I've known him for many years.

Not in Cuba. Here in the United States.

Mr. Triplett. What was the nature of your

association with Mr. Barker?

The Witness. Strictly with Pedro and Marcus.

The association with the B-25.

MI. Triplett.: Providing you the money? Anything

other than that?

The Witness.

He didn't provide me.

He gave the

money to Pedro.

Mr. Triplett. How about Eugeno Martinez? (phonetic):

When did you first meet him?

The Witness. Eugeno Martinez? In Cuba. He

was working at that time, I believe -- well, he owned

several businesses in Cuba 'and I met him once or

several times

during my inspection of the casinos.

Because one of my other jobs for Castro at one time,

he wanted me to take charge of the casinos for Pasternita

Nunez, who was in the mountains with me and with Fidel.

And if I'm not mistaken, I met Martinez.

He was

working for the Havana Hilton at that time.

Mr. Triplett.:

And what was the nature of your

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association with him?

The Witness. At that time there was no

association at all.

Mr. Triplett. How about after arriving in the

United States?

in i

The Witness.

Oh, yeah, when we arrived in the

United States. Because of the Bay of Pigs many of

us got together. Many people we didn't know, you

know.

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Mr. Triplett. Are you talking about because

of the planning for the invasion or the aftermath?

The Witness. No.. Because of the planning

before the invasion. We came in contact with many

people we didn't know and some people we did know

from Cuba. Like, you know, Nino Diez I knew from

Cuba.

And Nino was involved in the Bay of Pigs.

And Artime.

I didn't know Artime in Cuba, but I

met Artime here, you know. As a matter of fact the

people I was with didn't like Artime:

Mr. Triplett. By the way, when and where did

you first meet Bernard Barker?

The Witness. I met him when he lived in the

Northwest section. I met him, I believe, either

with Marcus or Pedro Diez Lanz. We went over to

his house.

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Mr. Triplett." And when was this?

'The

Witness. Oh, like I say - let's see, the

invasion was what,

1961 or '62?'61 I think it was.

Mr. Triplett.

'61:

The Witness.

April,

$61.

So it had to be

sometime in '61.

Mr. Triplett. Before the invasion?

The Witness.

oh, yeah.

Mi. Triplett. All right.

Either '60 or '61.

Yes.

By the way, did you ever meet and know. Jose

Sangenis?

The Witness.

You're talking about Sangenis?

Mr. Triplett.

Sangenis.

The Witness.

Oh, I know the Sangenis family

very well since, I believe, 1956 I've known them.

I know Roger Sangenis. And I believe that's who

you're probably talking about.

knew Louie: Sangenis.

Mr. Triplett. How about Jose?

The Witness.

You're talking about Sam Jenis?

Mr. Triplett., Yes?

The Witness.

Yeah.

Mr. Triplett.

You knew him by the name Sam

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Jenis?

The Witness: I knew him, yeah.

Mr. Triplett.

And what was the nature of your

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association with him?

The Witness.:

Well, Sam Jenis is a code name

that he used.

Sangenis is one name.

So what he did

is cut the name in half and said Sam Jenis.

So that

was his code name.

Mr. Triplett. Code name for what purpose?

The Witness. CIA. He was the head of Operation

40.

One of my Watergate associates, Phillipe Diego

(phonetic) was also Operation 40.

Mr. Triplett.. Now just for the record, what

exactly was Operation 40?

The Witness. It was an intelligence operation.

Understand, before the Bay of Pigs invasion, you

had three different

groups that the CIA controlled.

CIA controlled the Revolutionary Council, which was

political.

This was where Howard Hunt was in the

political end of it. Okay, I had nothing to do with

the political end of it, even though I knew. Tony

Lahone (phonetic) and some of the people in the

-political:

Mr. Triplett.

You're talking about the CRC?

The Witness.

Yeah. Cuban Revolutionary Council.

Thenyou had the Brigade, which another person

controlled that.

Then you had Operation 40 which Sam Jenis

controlled.

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So I had my associations in between really because

here we had a special air group that we were

associated with, Pedro Diez Lanz and myself, various

pilots and myself, towards this special air group.

At the

same time I had, naturally, association with

the Sangenis family.,

Operation 40; the primary job was intelligence.

In other words once a beach head was made inside

of Cuba, the people to follow the beach head would.

be intelligence, which would be Operation 40, which

already had contact inside Cuba through the CIA

naturally. The Cuban CIA agents would immediately

have direct contact with Operation 40.

And being an intelligence organization

going

into Cuba, in other words, to maintain contact with

the local populace, the political and the military

connections. That both CIA and members of this

whole invasion

group, whether it was the Revolutionary

Council or the Brigade

or from

Operation 40 or CIA,

make contact. And it's understandable that you have

an organization like Operation 40 to make contact

with certain people. If there's any betrayal with

the people you make contact with in Cuba, well

naturally it's logical, in order to fend your

intelligence

operation you would eventually start

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spreading out and you'd have to

go ahead and kill

people, both political or military. That's part of

fighting a war, you know.

Mr. Triplett. Well, you mentioned Antonio

DeVarona (phonetic). Tony Varona.

The Witness. Yeah, Tony.

Mr. Triplett. When did you first meet him?

The Witness. I met Tony here in exile before

the Bay of Pigs. Because we all

got together trying

to get the Cubans together to organize a resistance

movement in exile against the Castro Government.

Mr. Triplett. When you say get together. Did

you have brief meetings with Tony and the rest of

the people?

The Witness. Myself? No. I went with various

other people. For instance I went with Pedro, Marcus.

We even went to New York with Marcus Sterling up

there. We spoke with ex Presidents, you know.:

Mr. Triplett. You did have one or more meetings

with Tony Varona at the time?

The Witness. Not too many. I'll be very honest

with you. Not too many.

Mr. Triplett. Three, four, half a dozen?

The Witness. Yeah, maybe a couple of

meetings.

Because again I'm not politics and my friends would be

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the ones. Because 'I'm American remember. I'm not

a Cuban. So it's better for them to make the

contact and talk and talk politics.

Mr. Triplett.. Up to this point while we've

been talking about intelligence, we've been talking

primarily about the

CIA.

Did you have any contacts with representatives

of Army Intelligence?

The Witness.

well, it's possible. Again, CIA.

draws from all intelligence services, both Naval,

Army, Air Force Intelligence, and takes them away

from their own service and then uses

them as CIA

agents.

Mr. Triplett.'

Okay.

To your knowledge, did you provide any

information or perform

any activities on behalf of

Army, Air Force or Naval Intelligence?

The Witness. Yes.

Alex Roark (phonetic) went on a mission to

Central America and I did secure, or I did ask for

Naval Intelligence, to ask for help, you know, to

locate where MI. Roark and his pilot -- Sullivan

was his pilot who made this trip to Central America --

Mr. Triplett. (Interposing) This was the time

that Mr. Roark turned up missing?

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The Witness. Yeah.

Jeffrey Sullivan and

Alex Roark.

Mr. Triplett. And to your knowledge, did Naval

Intelligence provide any assistance?

The Witness.

Yes, they did. They immediately

sent

out, I believe, Coast Guard aircraft and'I

believe possibly Naval Air Force:

I'm not sure, you

know, what they did, but I know they did go out and

provide the necessary search mission for locating the

aircraft.

Mr.. Triplett. And was this because Mr. Roark

was a member of Naval Intelligence, or an associate?

The Witness.

I didn't know too much of Alex's

background. Alex was a friend of mine.

Very strongly

anti-communist. Alex did have an association in the

past with the FBI. His association, I would say that

he worked for them, not as an informant.

but for them.

In what position, I don't know.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

What was your purpose in approaching Naval

Intelligence on his behalf, as opposed to State

Department, Coast Guard, Navy in general, Army?

The Witness. I'll be very honest with you.

that particular time I didn't know.

I wanted some

quick action and I got on the phone and I made the call

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to Naval

Intelligence.

Mr. Triplett. It was your assumption that the

quick action would come from Naval Intelligence as

opposed to any other source?

The Witness.

Yes.

As a matter of fact I did have a meeting with

Alex the day before he left on this mission, on this

trip, at opa locka airport.

Mr. Triplett. You say he was on a mission.

On whose behalf was

that mission?

The Witness. I don't know at that particular

time. All I know is, we had the meeting at opa locka

airport. He told us he was on his way to Central

America and then he completely disappeared.

Mr. Triplett. Have you had occasion on other

occasions to phone Naval Intelligence and ask for

assistance?

The Witness. No.

Mr. Triplett. Or to provide information?

The Witness.

NO :

Mr. Triplett. Have you been involved with

organizations that have raised funds privately to

perform anti-Castro

activities?

Raids, propaganda

or whatever?

The Witness. Can you repeat the beginning of

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Mr. Triplett. Okay.

Have you been involved in any organizations

that have raised private money for the purpose of

fịghting Fidel Castro or providing propaganda against

him?

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The Witness.

Yes.

Pedro Diez Lanz, Marcus Diez Lanz and myself.

Again, they made the connections with various people

for funds in order to, you know, operate against

Castro.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

When you say with various people, could you be

more specific? How did they raise the funds and from

whom?

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The Witness. Personal contact. I will

go ahead

and tell you one of the

groups, because most of the

people I don't know who they got the funds from

because it was not my position to do that. From

Bacardi Rum Company, which the Vice-Consul, the

Station Chief in Santiago works for the Rum Company

after his retirement.

Mr. Triplett. And as a result of raising this

money, did you personally make any trips into and

out

of Cuba?

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The Witness.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett: On how many occasions?

The Witness.

Well -- oh, I'll give you another

name. DI. Louie Conte Aguerro, which is separate

of the Bacardi Rum. Company.

DI. Louie Conte Aguerro was being trained and

being financed by the United States Government, went

over to Europe -=-

Mr. Triplett.

(Interposing) Okay.

So this

wasn't privately financed. This was again

Government

money?

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The Witness. I can not exactly tell you that

he received the money directly from the Government.

But he contacted me at a meeting at the Miami Springs

Villa one time with a whole room full of Cubans there

who knew me, many of them knew me.

One of the

persons that was with him was Oscar Mastre (phonetic).

They owned like GMQ in Cuba, his family. Which these

people

naturally had very close CIA connections

and

had their own financing. You've

got to understand

a lot of these people, they have their own financing.

They would give money and the Government would

reimburse them. so it isn't like it's coming directly

from the Government. That's how they work. Go through

I their fronts.

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And they asked me to do a series of air raids

in Cuba, but to drop nothing but leaflets, which I

agreed.

I felt that -- there were five operations

and they asked me what the operations were,

how much

money it would cost to do the

operations, and I told

them approximately about $5,000 per operation. That

would lease the plane, the pilots

involved and so

forth. And I would obtain the pilots because they

wanted

me to stay out of it.

But unfortunately, because some of the pilots

couldn't find

their way in the daytime, as well as

at night time, I had to go ahead and do them myself.

Perform the operation myself personally.

Mi. Triplett. By the way, when and where did

you receive your flight training?

The Witness. In Norfolk, Virginia.

Mr. Triplett. Through the military or privately?

The Witness.: No, sir, privately.: I took it

through the GI Bill of Rights, my pilot training and

so forth, through CAP. I was operations officer for

a Civil Air Patrol Squadron Number 1 in Norfolk, and

started to get my hours in in single engine

aircraft

and so forth.

Mr. Triplett.

During what period of time were

yọu in the CAP?

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The Witness.

I guess in the '40's or the '50's.

MI. Triplett. All right. Getting back

to

missions into Cuba.

About how many missions in and out of Cuba did

you make?

of

them.

The Witness. I would safely say a great number

Mr. Triplett. Well, ten, 50, or 100?

The

Witness.

No, I did over 100. Over 100

missions.

Mr. Triplett.

Were these all by plane, or

some by boat?

The Witness. Boat and aircraft.

Mr. Triplett.

were the majority aircraft or

the majority boat?

The Witness.

The majority aircraft.

Mr. Triplett. And how again, precisely, were

these missions financed?

The witness. Some with the knowledge of the

Governmenttand some without the knowledge of the

Government.

Mr. Triplett. When you say with the knowledge,

did you receive money from a representative of the

Government, or was there a cut out like you described

to where some private funds were replaced by the

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Government?

The Witness: I would say that I myself personally

did not receive the money directly from the Government.

It was done through other people, which other people

got me to do it. For instance, DI. Louie Conte

Aguerro.

He directly said, "Frank, what's the

operation cost? Here's the money." And I got it.

Mr. Triplett. And what was the average cost

of each operation?

The Witness.

About $5,000. $5,000 period.

Mr. Triplett. And that -- did that include

money or reimbursement for you and the other people

involved to support your families?

The Witness. No. That was money for the

particular operation.

MI. Triplett. Well like you say, flying in

and out of Cuba, one flight, dropping leaflets, would

have cost $5,000?

The Witness. Right. Sure.

You've

got an

aircraft. You've got to pay the pilots. You had

"to give the pilots like $1,500 each to do this mission.

This was a mission that was a naturally dangerous

mission.

Yes, as a matter of fact Alex went on several

of these missions with me, taking pictures of the

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operations and so forth.

Mr. Triplett.

But you were the pilot frequently?

The Witness. Sometimes I was the pilot, yes.

Mi. Triplett: Who else went on these missions

with you besides Alex?

The Witness. Bill Johnson was one of the

pilots that I hired to work with me. Alex, naturally.

Jeffrey, Jeffrey Sullivan. If I think of any more

pilots I'll give it to Mr. Fonzi.

Mr. Triplett:

We will recess for lunch until

1:00 o'clock.

(The committee;

at 12:05 p.m., recessed, to

reconvene at 1:00 p.m.

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(The committee reconvened

at 1:30 p.m., Staff

Counsel William K. Triplett, presiding.

MI. Triplett. Let's go back on the record.

Mr. Sturgis advises that he has now recalled

a

couple of names that he couldn't recall this

morning.

The name of your second wife?

The Witness. Juanita Terrell (phonetic) is

her maiden name.

Mr. Triplett. And your first wife?

The Witness.

Maiden name was Thompson.

I'11

remember the first name.

The Vice-Consul of Santiago, his name was

Patterson.

Mr. Triplett.

Patterson, the last name?

The Witness.

Patterson. The Chief of Station

and Vice-Consul of Santiago.

Mr. Triplett.

Patterson•

The Witness. The Chief of Station in Havana,

at the American Embassy, was William Caldwell (phonetic)

MI. Triplett.. Okay:

This morning we were talking about money coming

either from or through the auspices of Bernard Barker

during your activities after your return from Cuba.

Now exactly when and where did you meet Mr. Barker?

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The Witness. At his home in the Northwest

section and I believe when I met him I was with Pedro.

Mr. Triplett. Okay. Who introduced you?

The Witness. Pedro.

Mr. Triplett.

So Pedro Diez Lanz knew him prior

to that time?

The Witness.

Right.

Mr. Triplett. And how many meetings did you

have with Mr. Barker?

The Witness. Oh, numerous.

Mr. Triplett. All at his home?

The Witness. No. I had meetings at restaurants,

at his home.

MI. Triplett. At how many of these meetings did

money actually change hands at the meeting?

The Witness.

Never with me personally. As

a matter of fact I received

I gifts from him, from his

boss.

Either going out to the Ranch House which was

on, close to 36th Street near LeJuene Road. There

used to be a Ranch House there. He took me there.

He took me to dinner and said the boss told me to take

you to dinner.

Another time for a Christmas holiday he

gave

me a bottle of booze.

MI. Triplett.

Okay.

You received

gifts from his

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boss?

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But through

time?

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The Witness., Again I've never met his boss.

Like I say it's possibly one of several agents that

was his control officer.

Naturally the first one that I know of, who.

I had never met personally, was

Eduardo. The second

one naturally I believe it was Jim Knowles, and I

think Jack Stewart comes in there somewhere.

MI. Triplett. You had never personally met

Eduardo?

The Witness. No. We'd all heard in the Cuban

colony of Eduardo because he was political. Belonged

to the political sector of CIA. And I had nothing

to do with the political sector. And that had to

be done with the Cuban Revolutionary Council.

Mr. Triplett.

Do you know who Eduardo was?

The Witness. Personally, no. But I knew who

Eduardo was: It was Barker's CIA control officer.

Mr. Triplett. I mean his actual full name?

The Witness. No, I did not know his actual full

name.

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Mr. Triplett. Do you know now?

The Witness. Oh, certainly.

MI. Triplett. And who is that?

The Witness. Eduardo was E. Howard Hunt.

Mr.

Triplett.

And you say you've never met

him?

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The Witness.

To the best of my knowledge.

Because remember at that time you run across a lot

of people and unless you actually know who they are,

you know, or --.

Mr. Triplett. (Interposing) Pardon me. Let's

..

clarify this.

You have met E. Howard Hunt?

The Witness. Oh, yeah. Certainly.

Mr. Triplett.. And you have, after the fact,

learned that Eduardo was in fact E. Howard Hunt?

The Witness. Right.

Mr. Triplett. So you have met Eduardo?

The Witness.

Oh, certainly. Yes.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

When did you first meet him?

The Witness. I believe it was Barker's office.

He introduced me to him when I was

going into the

office

and I think he was

going. out of the office.

Mr. Triplett: When?

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The Witness.

I'm not sure of the exact month,

but I believe it was 1972. Before, you know, I

got involved with the Plumbers. Unit. The special

intelligence

unit formed by the President of the

United States.

Mr. Triplett. You never met him before 1972?

The Witness.

To the best of my knowledge I

had never met this man before 1972. The name I knew,

Eduardo. I did not know E. Howard Hunt was Eduardo.

Never personally met this

man to the best of my

knowledge. Never at all: I

don't ever recall meeting

E. Howard Hunt, nor did I know that Eduardo was E.

Howard Hunt before 1972. Never knew the connection

between

them.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

What was your role with respect to the

International Anti-Communist Brigade?

The Witness. Well, going back, understand,

my role was at one time this was a group that I formed

which were one of many many groups that was formed

in the Miami area. I'm talking about Cuban

groups

who were anti-Castro

groups.

And Jerry Patrick Heming (phonetic) had a group

of Americans from the United States or from Canada

in the area, that these boys were associated with

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Rolando Masferer. And we, because we were trying to

do operations against. Cuba we more or less got these

fellows incorporated with us. But we have never done

anything with them because it was a raunchy group of

men.

Believe me.

Real raunchy. And they just more

or less shifted away.

Mr. Triplett. You mentioned Heming and

Rolando Masferer. Who else was involved?

The Witness. Well, I have never had any

dealings

with Rolando Masferer. Because you must

understand that Rolando Masferer was a Senator in

Cuba who, under the Batista regime, had a terrible

name for torture and killing and so forth.

Mr. Triplett. His nickname was El Tigere

wasn't it?

The Witness. El Tigere, little tiger.

But he was in exile. And we more or less -- when

•I say we, I talk about people like the Diez Lanz

brothers and myself and other Cubans who more or less

were anti-Batista, naturally. And so even

as the

years went by we integrated with certain people in

the Cuban colony that had dealings with Batista in

the past, but only certain people. And Masferer was

not one of these people.

MI :

Triplett.

Okay.

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When did you form the International Anti-

Communist Brigade?

The Witness.

oh, I don't know.

It was, I

Imagine, in the early '60's, the Brigade was formed.

And then. I gave up with it really.

And then the

person who took over the Brigade was Bucanhan, Jim

Bucanhan.

Mr. Triplett. Jim Bucanhan?

The Witness. Who was a newspaper man from

the sun Sentinel in Fort Lauderdale:

Mr. Triplett. Well, did you form it all on

your own, or were other people involved in the

formation?

The Witness. I more or less formed it on my

own.

I had, I think, Ray Sanstrom take care of the

legal aspects of it and

any letters or correspondence

that would come in would

go to his office and so forth,.

and that was it.

Mr. Triplett. Were the Diez Lanz brothers

involved with the formation of it; or the operation of

it?

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The Witness. No. : No, not really.

Bụt again my friends, the Diez Lanz brothers,

are my friends and anything I would do

naturally. I

would do with them or without them.

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Mr. Triplett. How about Loren Hall?

The Witness. That name, until I started to get

all this information pertaining to the JFK assassination,

I never really, and truthfully never thought that I

had met this man, nor did I know this man.

But as I came out, people like Jerry Patrick

'reminded me well, he was with my group and this and

that and you met him and so forth. And then there

was somethings that I read in various books that

Loren Hall did leave the Miami area, did go out

there and wanted to raise money for the Brigade and

so forth, and then I recollected that probably he

was one of the persons that I did know here that was.

with the Jerry Patrick group.

Mr. Triplett. Is it possible you knew him by

the name of Lorenzo Bassilio (phonetic)?

The Witness. I don't think so. Hall is more,

•you know: --

Mr. Triplett. (Interposing) How about Lawrence

Howard, or Lorenzo Howard? Did you know him? Was

he involved?

The Witness. No.

The only Howard I know was a David Howard. He

was a pilot.

Mr. Triplett.

would that be Howard Davis?

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The Witness. Howard Davis.

Mr. Triplett. That everybody. called Howard?

The Witness. That's it. Well, they called

him, yeah --

Mr. Triplett. (Interposing) Howard Davie?

The Witness. Howard Davie, right.

Mr. Triplett. What was his relationship with

the

group?

The Witness.. Well, he was one of the people

that I met through Jerry Patrick. There was a

parachute group, you know, that he was trying to form.

A parachute school

group. And they had been

associated or involved with various other Cuban

organizations to try

to get tied up with, and it all

boiled down to one thing. The money. Who had the

money to do operations, who didn't have the money.

Mr. Triplett. Was Howard Davis connected with

the CIA?

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The Witness. At that time, I don't believe so.

"As a matter of fact I don't know, at that particular

time.

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Mr. Triplett. How about William Seymore? Did

you know him? Or was he involved?

The Witness. I don't think I know Seymore:

Remember, Jerry Patrick had a number of people,

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a number of Americans

with him and I didn't personally

know every one individually, you know. Only certain

ones that I did recall and some I didn't recall.

Mr. Triplett. Well, at that time Jerry Patrick

also formed a group called Interpen, or Intercontinental

Penetration Force?

The Witness.

Right.

Mr. Triplett. Was that a subsidiary of your

group, or were they more or less in tandum, or what

was the relationship?

The Witness.' I don't think there was

any

relationship because they went off and did their own

thing, really. You know, after that they did their

own thing.

And I personally, like I say, I don't recall

when Bucanhan decided well, go ahead and use the

Brigade, because I didn't care at that particular

time.

So I disassociated myself, you know, with them.

And Bucanhan took. over the group.

As

a matter of fact Bucanhan also can verify

that I was here until around November the 22nd.

Mr. Triplett. We'll get to that a little

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What other things were you doing at that time?

The Witness. I was doing air and boat operations

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time with Bill Johnson.

Mr. Triplett:

mean into Cuba?

Air and boat operations? You

The Witness.

Right.

Mr. Triplett. What was the funding of the

International Anti-Communist Brigade?

The Witness. No funding at all. Completely

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MI. Triplett. Just a paper organization?

The Witness. Just a paper organization.

Just

to have an organization to try to do something.

Mr. Triplett.

Were there any activities beyond

a

beer party?

I

The Witness. I never went to any beer parties.

don't drink.: I'm a teetotaler.

Mr. Triplett.

I probably said that a little

flippedly:

Were there any activities of the Brigade

conducted whatsoever?

The Witness. As an organization at that

time,

no.

MI. Triplett. Well, what was the purpose of

the Brigade?.

The Witness. As I said before, the purpose of

the Brigade was to get a group of Cubans and at that

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particular time

to get these Americans to be available

for any operation.

But I decided that I couldn't handle these

people and I disassociated myself with Patrick and

his

group. They were uncontrolable.

Mr. Triplett.

Was it a corporation? You mentioned

Mr.

Sanstrom was involved in it.

The Witness..: It's very easy to find out. I

think possibly it was formed as a corporation to try

to arrange money legally. And like. I said before,

there was no money to be raised.

MI. Triplett. Okay.

If it was a corporation or even if it was a

partnership, it would require more than one person

as the organizer, Who else organized it with you?

Whose names were on it?

The Witness. To be honest with you, my mind

is blank on that. If it was a corporation and

legally incorporated, Tallahassee would have the

papers and the people's names on it.

Mr. Triplett. How long were you with the

organization before you turned it over to. Bucanhan?

The Witness. Well I didn't exactly turn it

over. I just let it ride and told Bucanhan, oh,

forget it. So he more or less started it up himself

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and made himself the Secretary General of the

organization and so forth.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

For how long were you involved with it? weeks,

months, years?

The Witness. No. Not that long. The Brigade,

it may have been a year possibly, that I wanted to

go ahead and be involved with it. But like I say,

I just lost interest in

the whole thing because of

a lack of funding.

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever been contacted by

any person for the purpose of killing somebody in

this country?

The Witness.

Yes,

sir.

Mr. Triplett. By whom?

•The Witness. At that time, a CIA agent.

Mr. Triplett. And who was the agent?

The Witness. Do I have to tell you? well, I've

got nothing to hide. I'm sorry I even said that.

The year, I don't recall the year, but I don't

know whether I called this party or the party called

me. Anyway we

got together and in getting together,

I was either asked at his home or at a restaurant,

whether I would be interested in doing a domestic

assassination. And that surprised me.

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MI. Triplett.

Who was this person?

The Witness.

Barker.

MI. Triplett. And approximately when?

you recall?

The Witness.

NO:

I don't recall:

Mr. Triplett.

Can you put it in a frame of

reference, after you returned from Cuba? Before

or after the Bay of Pigs?

The Witness. This is the problem. It was after

I came from Cuba.: I don't recall what year. Whether

it was before of after the Bay of Pigs.

I honestly

don't recall.

I did tell Sam Jenis about this and he kind of

laughed and

he

said really, you've got to be kidding.

Well, find out:

So, I pursued it. . I told Barker, I said yes, I

would do it, a domestic assassination. But first I've

got to find out who the person is. Then he started

questioning me, well how would you go about it and

SO

forth. And I said hey, you know, it all depends

on who the party is.

SO

we went from there and I had à couple of

meetings with him pertaining to that. Then finally

I was told to pin him down and say hey, I will not

do it unless I get word from his control office.: And

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that's. what

I did. I said, until your control officer

sits down with me and tells me

that he wants a domestic

assassination done, then I would do it. But through

you, no.. I want another verification from your control

officer.

He never came back.

Mr. Triplett. Did he ever talk to his control

officer?

The. Witness. Evidently he must have, because

he never mentioned it after that particular incident.

And I'd been in touch

with him up until the day of

Watergate, our problems with Watergate. And he never

came back and told me whether or not he wanted me to

go ahead and continue, you know, whatever the domestic

assassination was.. Because I said I want to know who

the party is, depending on how I would do it. If it's

going to be domestic, it's pretty hot stuff, you know.

So I told Barker, well, go to the Everglades,

you dig a hole, put lye in there and buryithe guy

or we!ll get an airplane of boat and do it out here

in the Gulf, you know, blow the boat up and so forth.

But I said before I actually do it, I want your

control officer to sit down with me and I want it

from his mouth that this is national security business.

And I would want to know who the party is, depending.

on how I would do this particular operation, you know.

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Because you've got to kidnap the

guy.

Mr. Triplett.. And who was the party he wanted

killed?

The Witness. I don't know. He never told me.

MI. Triplett. Did he offer you any money of

any facilities for the purpose of doing this?

The Witness. No... It never

got to that point.

In other words, after I told him, you know, that I

would have to sit down with his control officer, the

thing never developed into anything else.

MI. Triplett. Have you ever been contacted by

anyone else, or by Mr. Barker, for the purpose of

killing anybody else domestically?

The Witness.

: No:

Mr. Triplett. Only thät one time?

The Witness.

Yes"

Just that one time.

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever been contacted by

anybody for the purpose of killing somebody outside

of the country?

The Witness. Since I came from Cuba?

No.

Mr. Triplett. Specifically Fidel Castro?

The Witness. Oh, with Fidel, yes. Yes.

Mr. Triplett. well, that's killing somebody.

The Witness. I'm sorry. I'm awfully sorry.

Well, Marita Lorenz, but naturally we're

going

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back I think what, about '60 or '61. That's about it.

Mr. Triplett. Just one occasion, or more than

one occasion?

The Witness. One occasion. That's poison.

MI. Triplett. And again, who contacted you

•for that purpose?

The Witness. For that particular purpose who

contacted me to

go ahead and set this thing up? No

one at

all.

Just the Cuban

groups, you know, here

ourselves, trying to

go ahead and do penetration work

inside of Cuba. We were

going to try tó kill Fidel

naturally.

MI. Triplett. So it was a joint decision of

which you were a part?

The Witness. A joint decision.

MI. Triplett. Well, whose idea was it?

The Witness. Yeah, it was a joint decision to

go ahead and try to kill Castro naturally. Which

continues until this day. The only exception is

that I'm not involved today and haven't been for the

last number of years to do anything like that against

Castro.

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Mr. Triplett. How many times since you came back

from Cuba have you been involved in planning or

attempting an assassination on Castro?

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The Witness:

How many times? Well, going

back many years ago, I would think that after the

Bay of Pigs

invasion, maybe shortly after that, I

more or less lost interest because of not having

the proper financing

In order to do that you have

to have proper financing, to kill Fidel.

I'd say, the Bay of Pigs failed, and I may

have tried after 1963 because of the President's

assassination, because I was very bitter about that.

And I felt, from as early 1964, that the

President was assassinated, that Castro's intelligence

service was one of others that was behind the killing

of the President./And naturally my feeling was

continuous revenge against the friends that he

executed and would be feeling that he was involved

in the killing of the President.

Mr Triplett. So how many times did you attempt;

or plan to kill Castro?

The Witness. Oh, I would say about, not counting

the Marita Lorenz thing at

the very beginning. I would

say here in the United States, probably about two

times, two or three times, approximately.

Mr. Triplett.

And who else was involved with

you on these two or three occasions?

The Witness.

Myself and a number of Cuban groups

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here in town that eventually left, or probably are

living in Venezuela, are Venezuelan citizens, or

Mexico and Central America.

MI.

Triplett. Again you mentioned groups.

had to be individual people:

It

The Witness.

Well, individual people who had

their own groups.

Mr. Triplett.

people? I want their names.

Who were these individual

The Witness..

Oh? Well, that's pretty tough

because of the years that went by and the connections

that we have had. My goodness.

Mr. Triplett. How about Orlando Bosch?

The Witness. Orlando Bosch, yeah.

Mr.. Triplett. : How about Louise Posada?

The Witness.

Louise Posada? I don't know

whether I know Louise Posada. Louise Posada? But

Orlando Bosch, yes.

Mr. Triplett. Dia you ever discuss the

assassination of Fidel Castro or plan the

assassination of Fidel Castro with any official

of the United States Government?

The Witness.

No, sir.

Not here.

When I

left Cuba and came here, no.

MI. Triplett: How about an FBI Agent named

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Frank O'Brien?

The Witness. O'Brien? I don't recall Frank

O'Brien. But more or less, over the past years,

the FBI has been in touch with me. But I don't

recall me discussing anything about killing Fidel

with any FBI agents.

MI. Triplett. You say you don't recall, or

never did?

The Witness.. I don't recall.

Mr. Triplett. So you may have?

The Witness. It's

possible. Again I will say

that I've been involved in so many things in the

past years that I could not say, you know, yes or

no. You know, straight out.

MI. Triplett. Have you ever planned, or been

contacted by other people for the purpose of

assassinating somebody outside this country other

than Fidel Castro?

The Witness. Other than Fidel Castro? No.

MI. Iriplett. Like maybe a Central or South

American President or Dictator, or Raul Castro?

The Witness. Well, the Castro brothers, including|

Chang, I have naturally went to various countries

and naturally there are always conspiracies going

on with some of the Cuban exiles that would like to

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really nail these people.

MI. Triplett.

I'm talkingaabout you

specifically?

The witness. Myself specifically? Well, I

have heard through

my associations with

various

cubans in the past of wanting to go ahead and try

to, you know, kill them on certain visits that they

had taken from Cuba to certain other countries. But

for myself specifically to be involved in trying to

do it, I don't

recall that me myself did any planning

stage, you know, trying to kill Castro.

And to be honest with you, if there was a plan

to do it, I would certainly get myself involved because

I hate the man.

I would have no hesitation.

Mr. Triplett. In other words you're not

adverse. to that sort of plan? Even today? Is that

what you're saying?

The Witness.

Well, let me say this. I won't

say that because I'm much older today. Much older

and much wiser and you can't buck the system. And

if Uncle Sam

says don't touch the man, well then you

don't touch the man.

So I dón't touch him.:

Mr. Iriplett.

Okay.

Let's get back to the time when you were in

Cuba.

What relationships did you have, if any, with

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the casinos, or the casino owners?

The Witness.: I believe at one of the Staff

meetings that I had with Castro, it was either at

the Air Force Base or the Prime Minister's office,

and it might have been as early as February, Castro

wanted me to help Pasternita Nunez, who was a woman

that was in the mountains with me, or I was with them

in the mountains.

She was a minister and all this

control came under her. So Fidel wanted me to help

her because of the confusion in Government that was

going on as early as February.

So I, representing the Cuban Government, assisted

Pasternita in the, well say control for the Government,

of the casinos.

I believe there was approximately,

maybe 22 casinos at that particular time.

My job

was, for Castro, to make sure, as he

was changing everything around, to make sure that

only a set amount of tables in each casino would be

operational and that each one of these tables had

to have the Government tax stamp on the tables. And

my job was to make sure that for instance, the Havana

Hilton was a big room there and they had X amount

of tables, roulette, black jack, this, that and so

forth, that they would have to have each table with

a

tax stamp, and my job was to make sure: that that was

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Mr. Triplett. And this was at the same time

that you were with the Air Force in Cuba?

The Witness. Yeah. Right.

Mr. Triplett: Had you, previous to that time,

ever worked in any of the casinos?

.*;

The Witness. I have never worked, nor have I

owned any gambling casinos in my whole life.

Mr. Triplett.. Had you ever worked for any

of the people who owned casinos at that time?

The Witness.

No. Never in my whole life. No.

None whatsoever. The only contact I ever had with

either casino operators or the management

is when I

would go on an inspection tour to inspect the tables

in the rooms and so forth for the Government. And

that wasn't too many times because I had my other

duties.

MI. Triplett:

so you're saying you were

essentially an inspector and tax regulator?

The Witness.

Yeah. To make

sure they keep

everything honest.

Mr. Triplett. Did you have any personal or

social connections with any of the people that were

involved with the

casinos?

The Witness.

Social, no. But I've had personal

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contact with them because as I went to the casinos I

introduced myself, who I was. Naturally had to have

• my identification. I used to have my uniform on,

but after awhile Fidel said that anybody who would

go to the casinos -- that was one of the rules that

anybody in uniform had to keep out of the casinos

area, the gambling area.

They could go to the clubs.

but not in the gambling area. So I had to change

my clothes from my military uniform to my civilian

clothes and then I went and identified myself. Because

used to

go to the casinos and go up to the crap

table and I'd grab, if somebody would roll the dice,

I would grab the dice and I would look

at the dice

and I would say excuse me, I'm just checking the dice

and so forth. These are things I would do. They would

be very angry at me for doing it.

MI. Triplett.

How did you go about checking

the dice?

The Witness. Well, I know something, a little

bit.

With the dice, you know, they could be shaved

and have mercury in them where they would fall a certain

way and so forth and they could switch dice and so

forth, and I wasn't really up to that. Because Fidel

asked

me to come to the United States, if possible,

to

go ahead and get some people who knew about

gambling

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and who knew about how to do the roulette wheel, you

know, electronically and so forth. So I was going to

go ahead and do that, but unfortunately I didn't have

time to do that, to

get the proper people to work for

the Cuban Government in order that the tables would be,

you know, operated in a legal manner.

And naturally there came a day where Fidel

ordered me to go ahead and close the casinos for ten

days, which he wanted to put them out of business,

which he did do for ten days.

Mr. Triplett. And you personally closed the

casinos for ten days?

The Witness. Well, I notified the casino -- I

did not notify the casino operators -- but I notified

the inspectors that the casinos were going to be

closed on a certain day. So naturally, Pasternita

Nunez, who was the minister,

sent out the memorandum

form to the casino operators that the casinos were

going to be closed. And they

got furious about it.

When the order came about, that day it was

closed, naturally inspectors with troops went to the

casinos and made sure that the doors were locked and

nobody could enter the casino rooms to do

gambling.

Then the next thing that followed that actually,

was big demonstrations of the families of the casino

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operators -- not operators - but the casino workers

because they had a union there.

So. they had a

peaceful demonstration and Fidel was forced, ten

days later, to reopen the casinos.

MI. Triplett. Did any of the casino owners

personally complain to you?

The Witness. No.

During this period of time

I had no contact with the casino operators because

again I was involved in these other things that I

was doing for the Cuban Government.

MI. Triplett. But you were occasionally at

the casinos inspecting?

The Witness. Oh, yeah.

Mr. Triplett.: So you at least knew them?

The Witness. I knew some of them, yeah. Because

there were so many, people who had pieces of the operation

or whatever.

MI. Triplett. So did any of them ever complain

to you of this ten day closing?

The Witness. Well: I, at one time, had a

meeting with Fidel, a Staff meeting, and Fidel told

me that he was going to close the casinos. He was

going to run the God-Damned gangsters out of Cuba.

This

is what he told me.

So during the process of the times that I

went

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to do my inspections, I told a number of the people,

whether it was an operator of the casino or whether

it was the management, you know, that was there, that

hey, Fidel is going to go ahead and close the casinos

and so forth. They didn't believe it.

Mr. Triplett. Who did you tell?

The Witness

Well,.I can say one of them wa's

Santos Trafficante one time.. I was at the -- what

the hell

casino was

Iat "- and Fidel's

sister was

there with this movie actor, John -- the one who

played Wild Bill Hickcock -- so she called me over.

The younger sister:

Fidel's younger sister. And

I sat down and Trafficante came over and I got up

because I knew he was one of the operators of this

particular casino. And so I got aside with him and

•I told him, I said, Mr. Trafficante, I had a meeting

with Castro and he said he was going to go ahead and

nationalize all American business interests and he

was going to run the God-Damned gangsters, or the

gambling operators out of Cuba.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

Who else did you tell this to, if you recall?

The Witness.

well, I told a Mr. Hymie Levine

(phonetic). He was there. And I believe that's about

all because very shortly, a few days later,

naturally

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the things were closed.

Mr. Triplett.. When they were closed, did any

of the owners or operators complain to you about the

closing?

The Witness.

No. Because I had no further

contact with them. When they were reopened again

I was seeing to my duties elsewhere. They were so

heavy on me, that my inspectors continually worked

throughout the casinos, all the different casinos.

Mr. Triplett.. How long were you actually a

casino inspector?

The Witness. Well I would say from February

üntil June when I left.

That was it. Because I

left the 30th of June, 1959.

Mr. Triplett. When you left the 30th of

June, that was

sometime after the ten day closing

you previously described?

The Witness: Oh, yeah, sure.

Mr. Triplett. During this period of five

or so months that you were

a casino inspector, did

you have occasion to make any deals with any of

the operators or owners of the casinos?

The Witness. I never made any deals whatsoever

with anyone. None whatsoever. Because when I came

over here, you must understand, my activities here did

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not include doing anything with those people.

no interest in those people.

Mr. Triplett. Did you receive

any favors

or

presents from any?

The Witness.

NO.

Never.

Mr. Triplett. Did anybody offer you any favors

or presents?

The Witness.

NO.

I would not be in this situation today, the

way I am, if I did. Because I understand that people

who deal with them have

good connections and I am,

throughout this whole thing with Watergate, in a

very very bad financial situation. All this publicity

since Watergate, with the JFK situation, have left

me at a very very bad situation financially.

Otherwise, I have had tremendous positions

offered me, but unfortunately because of the exposure

that I have received throughout all of this, it has

denied me really to earn a decent living. And if I

had mob connections, believe me, then I would be all

right.

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever heard of somebody

called Stretch Rubin?

The Witness. Oh, yeah. Sure.

- .

Mr. Triplett. Did you have occasion at one time

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to save his life?

The Witness. Oh, yes. In Santiago. Yes.

MI. Triplett.. How

did that happen?

The Witness. Well, I was in my jeep with some

of my bodyguards and i

saw a commotion right near

the Casa Grande Hotel.

I stopped because.I

heard

this American raising a lot of hell and so förth;

and I stopped and I jumped out of my jeep between

my bodyguards.

These were. Barbudas (phonetic).

I asked them what's happening here? They said

well, he's one of these gangsters here and so forth

and Rubin is hollering, you know, "They are going

to kill me, they are going to shoot me."

•^.

So I went over and says wait a minute, like

what's the problem here?

And he

said look I just left the business

over here, and he had two bags of money.: I said!

did you steal anything, or what? He said, no. He

said I checked the slot machines.

They had a

gambling .room at the Casa Grande Hotel.

So I told the Barbudas, I says look --

told

him, look, these

people. are not going

• to kill you. I

says as a matter of fact I am going to take you with me,

you know, so you will be all right.

So I told the Barbudas, leave him alone.: I am

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going to take him with me.

And I told him to.come

with me

Whether I walked with him someplace, or

took him into the jeep with me:

That is what I did.

Mr. Triplett. By the way, I presume Stretch

would be a nickname. What was Mr. Rubin's actual name?

The witness.

I do not know.

Mr. Triplett. All you know is Stretch rubin?

The Witness. Stretch Rubin, right.

Mr. Triplett. Did you subseguently see Mr.

Rubin on occasion after that?

The Witness;

Yes."

Mr. Triplett. Did he introduce you to any of

his friends?

The Witness:

• Yes.'

Remember, this is santiago, Cuba. The next time

I saw him was when I

got to Havana and they came over

to the Air Force to see me because I toldöthem I was

going to Havana, I was going to the Air Force.

they came over to the Air Force to see me.

SO

And he

brought another person over to the Air Force, which

was a Hymie Levine.

Mr. Triplett. Did he introduce you to Mr.

Levine at that time?

The Witness.

Yes:

Mr. Triplett.

was there any purpose for the

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introduction

1 of Mr. Levine?

The Witness. Yes. He was facinated with the

fact that I washan American officer with the Rebel

forces, especially with Fidel. That day they came

out to see me, Fidel came in with a helicopter and

he landed and Fidel saw me at a distance, and

naturally they were there to see me; and Fidel

walked over with his entourage and saw me and

gave

me

an embrazo, you know.

So they were highly

impressed.

The fact, you know, Fidel and here's

this American, a Rebel officer. And Fidel left

after that.

Mr. Triplett. Did Stretch Rubin introduce

you to anybody else?

The Witness.

Well, from that time -- let's

see.

this was in January. Then remember I didn't

have anything to do with -- no, I did not have anything

to do with the gambling at that time. Because it

came later.. In February.

But in February, what Hymie did, and stretch

both, they said I am going to introduce you to some

of the operators when you identify yourself to them,

which

I did because I saw them at casinos.

So I am

not sure which casino it was. I saw them at one

casino and naturally they introduced me to one of the

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managers who was operating the place.

MI. Triplett. Who was that?

The Witness. I forget off-hand who it was.

So they mentioned, this is Frank Fiorini. He

is Fidel's right-hand man. In charge of this. I mean,

this is how this thing went around.

so I got to know

who was who, you know, and

I made my report when I

got back to my office with Pasternita, because they

really didn't know who was who and so forth. Because

many of the documents that they had concerning, you

know the ministry concerning the casinos, many of them

were missing. So we had to

go ahead and find out

who was involved in the Hilton operation, who was

involved in the Nationale, who was involved in the

Capri, who was involved in the thing. You know, we

had to go in and try to

make a list of these things,

lof the people involved in the operation of the

gambling

casinos.

Mr. Triplett.

Well, who were some of these

people that you do recall that Stretch Rubin and Hymie

Levine introduced you to?

The Witness. I think one of them was Santos

Trafficante. Let's see, at the Nationale I think

the introduced me -- who was the operator of the

Nationale -- McLeaney (phonetic) I think was the one

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at the Nationale.

Mr. Triplett. Which McLeaney?

The Witness. Mike McLeaney. He introduced me.

to Mike McLeaney and told Mike who I was.

And I

told Mike, if you don't mind telling your people

that if I come here, or my inspectors. come here, be

courteous with them because this is the way it has

got to be with Fidel: It has got to be strictly

legit and we are going to find out whether your

slot machines -- well, there was no slot machines --

but whether your roulette machines are working properly,

whether your dice tables, there is no loaded dice.

All these other things that I instructed the people

I was introduced to, if I was introduced

by them.

But they

were impressing their people that they

Especially. Stretch telling them that I saved

knew me.

his life, you know. It's one of those things.

Mr. Triplett.: Did he introduce you to anybody

else that you recall?

The Witness.

He introduced me to a number of

people.

23

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MI. Triplett. Considering these people you

were introduced to, other than telling them that they

had

to keep their slot machines straight --

The Witness. (Interposing) No slot machines now.

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Because Fidel never told them they could do the

slot machines.

Mr. Triplett. Okay, that their games had to

be legitimate, whatever they were.

The

Witness Right.

Mr. Triplett.

Other than that, what other

services, if any, did

you perform for these people?

The Witness.. For what people?

Mr. Triplett. These people, Stretch Rubin,

Hymie Levine and the people they introduced you to?

The Witness.

Well, I never performed any

services, for them because I represented the Cuban.

Government.

Everything had to be a set way for

the Cuban Government and that was it.

Mr. Triplett. How did you first meet Norman

Rothman?

The Witness.

There in Havana.

Mr. Triplett. How did you meet him?

The Witness. Introduced by either Stretch

Rubin or Hymie Levine.

Mr. Triplett. What was the nature of your

associatiion with Mr. Rothman?

The Witness.

The same thing.

Introduction,

you know.. I was

going to inspect the casino and

so forth.

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Mr. Triplett. Did you ever perform services

for him at that time, or later?

The Witness.

Perform services

for Norman

Rothman?

Mr. Triplett.

Yes:

The Witness. I never worked for these people.

MI. Triplett. Have you ever met Joseph

Shi lmon?

The Witness. I don't know Joseph

Shilmon.

Mr. Triplett. Shilmon?

The Witness. You mean Commandant: Schmone?

Mr. Triplett. No, that's not the man we are

talking about.

How about Robert McKewon (phonetic)?

The Witness. I don't know. The name sounds

familiar. I might have read it in books or something

about Mckewon.

But I do not recall personally ever

meeting him:

Mr. Triplett.

Have you ever met Dominic

Bartone?

The Witness.

oh, yes.

Yes.

Mr. Triplett. When and where did you first

meet him?

The Witness. At the Air Force Base.: He came

to

the Air Force Base..

I think his people flew in

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in an experimental aircraft and landed at the Air

Force Base and they were trying to sell this aircraft

to the Air Force.

And I put more or less a clout to

it because I said hey, what the hell are we

going to

do with this big aircraft, you know.

They wanted

some ridiculous amount for it.. I think it was a four.

engine aircraft. And that is how I met Bartone.

MI. Triplett. "And have you had any associations

with Bartone since then?

The Witness.

No. . I met Bartone one other time

in exile, through the exile movement.

Mr.

Triplett. When you say in exile, you mean

here in the United States?

The Witness

Here in the United States:

Pertaining to equipment necessary to fight against

Castro:

Mr. Triplett. You may have met him?

The Witness. I think I did one time, with

Hymie Levine. I'm not sure. I am pretty sure that

is the only way because otherwise on my own I never

had any connection with him.

Mr. Triplett.

So you were associating with

Hymie Levine after your return to the United States?

The Witness.

Oh, when I came over here I ran

across Hymie Levine one time, yes.. Hymie Levine at

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one

time said this

Dominic Bartone was, I forget,

some office he had downtown or something, and I went

with him at his office.

Mr. Triplett. Let me make sure I have this

straight.

You have seen Hymie Levine one time since you

came back and on that one time he probably took you

to see Dominic Bartone?

The Witness... I am almost sure it was Hymie

Levine that took me to see

Dominic Bartone. But

now Hymie Levine, over the past years, I have been

in touch with Hymie Levine and the reason for that

is, Hymie came here from Cuba himself and stayed

here all these years.

And as

a matter of fact Hymie Levine did have

a..stroke.

•As a matter of fact I took Hymie Levine

to my home. Hymie Levine had dinner in my home and

I liked Hymie Levine: I liked him. He was a nice

fellow. A nice old fellow.

MI. Triplett. Did you ever meet Sam Benton?

The Witness. I don't recall Sam Benton.

Mr. Triplett. By the way, did Norman Rothman

ever offer you money to assassinate Fidel Castro?

The Witness.

No.

Mr. Triplett.

Never?

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The Witness:

No. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Triplett.. Have you ever met Charles Tourine?

The Witness.: Charles Tourine? Yes, one of

my inspections of the Capri. Yes.

Mr. Triplett.

• Once, or more than once? What

was the nature of your association with him?

The Witness: Strictly casinos.

Mr. Triplett. Have you seen him since you

returned to the United States, or talked to him on

the phone?

The Witness. No.

Mr. Triplett.

"How about Dino Cellini over there

in

Havana?

The Witness. I ran into Dino one time on 36th

Street when he was buying some bread, and this is

going back a few years.

Mr. Triplett. So you've only seen him once:

since you have been back in the United States?

The Witness.

Once that I know of.

Mr. Triplett. Have you talked

to him on the

phone?

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The Witness. Have I spoke to him on the phone?

Dino Cellini? I don't recall.

Mr. Triplett.

How about Santos Trafficante?

Have you seen or heard from him since you returned to

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the United States?

The Witness. All of these years I may have

run into him again on 36th Street one time.

Mr. Triplett. Was that an accidental meeting,

or did you plan to meet him there?

The Witness. Accidental.

Mr. Triplett. Have you talked to him on the

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phone?

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The Witness. Not that I recall.

Mr. Triplett. Approximately when was it that

you ran into Santo Trafficante?

The Witness.. Oh, this was years ago. I don't

recall just about what year it was. Going back many

years. ago.

Mr. Triplett. How about Donald Edward Browder?

The Witness. I don't recall Browder.

Mr. Triplett. Joe Marola (phonetic)?

The Witness. I ran into Marola two or three

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times.

Mr. Triplett. When did you first meet him and

how?

The Witness. I don't recall, really, when I

'first met Joe Marola.

Mr. Triplett. You do not recall when you met

him?

Did you meet him in Cuba or did you meet him in

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the United States?

The Witness. Possibly I met him in Cuba. If

not

in Cuba, it had

to be here in the United States,

in the Miami area.

Mr. Triplett. How about Carlos Marcella (phonetic)?

The Witness: No. I never met Carlos Marcella.

Mr. Triplett. You

never met him?

The Witness. Not that I know of.

Mr. Triplett:

Never talked to him over the

10

phone?

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The Witness. No.

Mr. Triplett. How about Sam Giocana (phonetic)?

The Witness.

NO.

Mr. Triplett. You've never met him?

The Witness. Never met him

MI:

Triplett.: John Rozelli" (phonetic)?

The Witness. No, never met him.

Again I will say if these people were ever

in Cuba, went back during the time I was inspecting

the casinos, I was introduced to several people, you

know. And who knows?

I may have met these people,

hello and goodby, and that was the end of it. But

to my knowledge, today, I don't believe I ever met

these people.

Mr. Triplett..

How about Joe Rivers? When and

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how did you meet him?

The Witness.

In: Cuba.

Mr. Triplett. And have you seen or talked to

him since you returned to the United States?

The Witness.

I think I run into him one time,

possibly:

Mr. Triplett. About when was that?

The Witness. On the Beach, I guess. I don't

know. I'm going back many years ago now.

....

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

The Witness. Ánd that was accidental.:

Mr. Triplett. This last approximately it or

13 people we talked about -- it might be more, I

do not have the

exact count -- this last group of

people that we have been discussing, when is the

last

time you saw of talked to any of them?

The Witness. Years. Believe me. And I don't

recall what year, where at or what. It has been years.

I, go to the Beach quite often and that is where they

stay at. And. if you run out to the Beach you are

Ilable to run into them accidently, you know. a

Mr. Triplett. You, go to the Beach quite, often?

The Witness.

I haven't been at the Beach for

awhile, you know, but I used to

go quite often to

the Beach.

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MI. Triplett. Have you ever had any associations

with the Drug Enforcement Administration?

The Witness.

yes.

Mr. Triplett. And what type of

associations?

The Witness. Well, while I was in jail, just

before I

got out of jail on the watergate thing, I

was in the Dade County jail, where

I got released here.

A friend of mine came to see me and wanted to get in

touch with the CIA. And I looked at him and I said,

you got to be crazy. I am in jail. How am I going

to get in touch with the CIA for you? I said, tell

me what it is about?

He said well, Frank, it is National security

business

outside the country.

I said well, you are going to have to wait

until I get out. Which, in a few days I dia

get out

here. So when I did get out he made contact with me

over at my home. His name was Jerry Bucanhan.

MI. Triplett. Jim Bucanhan's brother?

The Witness.

Yes. Jim Bucanhan's brother.

Jerry Bucanhan®

So I made contact with a Mi. McVaine (phonetic) •

MI. Triplett.

What was his first name? Do you

recall?

The Witness.

No.: I forget his first name.

There

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is only one MoVaine because

that's a code name that

they use. There's only one agent that uses that

particular code name.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

The Witness. And in the process

of that,

making contact with McVaine, I

got a call from the

Senate Watergate Committee, which I had to go to

Washington, D.C. and I was questioned again over

the same thing just like I am

going over the same

thing here, the Rockerfeller Committee and so forth

questioned me. And then finally the punch line came,

have you been in touch with CIA since you have been

out of jail? And I said, yes, I have. Who? And I

said well, it pertained to National security business.

So why don't you get in touch with these people and

find out, you know,: because I do not even know what

kind of National security business it is. I have

not even had time to make the personal contact, you

know.

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SO I

was instructed by the CIA stationed here

that any of the Watergate people could not have any

personal contact with the local CIA stationed here.

Any contact with CIA would have to be done through

Langley, Virginia. So they slamed the door in my

face here.

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So then I had to

go through a friend of mine

who I knew had direct contact with CIA. So I turned

my friend over to another intelligence organization

to make contact with them.

Mr. Triplett. What other intelligence

organization?

The Witness. U.S. Customs Investigations.

Mr. Triplett. Well; this is very interesting,

MI. Sturgis.: My question was, have you ever had any

contact with the Drug. Enforcement Administration?

The Witness.

Yes. This is what leads up to

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Mr. Triplett.

All right. Keep going then.

The Witness. So we had a meeting with the

agent in the car, which was

tape recorded and Mr.

Bucanhan was with me..

And Mr. Bucanhan spelled out

everything.",It had to do with international drụg

smuggling.

So I told them, I says, well, I am turning him

over to you people because that is out of my line,

which I did.

So a meeting was set up with U.s. Customs and

the DEA for Jerry Bucanhan to do what he had to do

with

.. them. And that is it.

Mr. Triplett. And is that the only contact you

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personally have had with DEA?

The

Witness

Yes.

well, that and a few other

things.

But that is it more of less.

Mr.

tripiett. well, a few other things. what

few other things? Have you been investigated?

The Witness. No, not' as an informant because

I am not registered with those people. But there are

other people that I did, have made contact with these

people, to work with these people.

Mr. Triplett.: Are you familiar with the name

Kenneth Bernstein?

The Witness.

Yes.

Mr. Triplett.

And what is your association

with him?

The Witness. I have no personal association

with him. This is where Jerry Bucanhan comes in

because he worked on that case.

Mr. Triplett.

Bernstein was with DEA?

The Witness

Bernstein, at the beginning, was

not with DEA, but because of the investigation that

Jerry Bucanhan was doing as an undercover agent for

DEA and U.S. Customs, this is where Bernstein at a

later date

was

recruited by DEA and so forth. You

would have to look at the record on that because I

wa's not too much involved in that.

This was a Jerry

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Bucanhan situation.

Mr. Triplett.

Are you familiar with the name

Steve Czukas?

The Witness. Certainly.

Yes:

Mr. Triplett. And what is. your association

of knowledge of him?

The Witness.

Steve Czukas is a U.S. Customs

investigator:

Mr. Triplett. Is that also the person you

contacted with respect to Customs?

The Witness.

Yes:

Mr. Triplett. "Have

you had any other dealings

with Mr. Czukas other than this one you related?

The Witness:

Any time that any information --

yes,

I have, pertaining to information concerning

Cuban terrorists, that I felt a lot of it was

done

by cuban intelligence and so forth, in order

that

CIA would have a hand in it.

This was international.

That they would be advised of it through Steve Czukas.

Mr. Triplett. Now when you talk about Cuban

terrorists, are you talking about any Cuban

terrorist,

or just pro-Castro Cuban terrorists?

The Witness. I am talking about the pro-Castro

Cuban

terrorists because I am not aware of all the

terrorists activity that's going on in this area.

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Because. I am not in that business

'I am not in the

business of investigations of anything like that at

the present time. But any time I would gather some

information through friends of mine, like CIA fellows

who were 'Cubans, this information, if I felt that it

was essential to the Government, then I would turn

certain people over, make introductions to certain

people to steve Crukas who in turn, if they had to

go ahead and take them to either the DEA or U.S.

Customs or FBI Or CIA.

He

was. my "contact with the

Federal Agencies to turn these people and the

information over to them and I kept out of it.

Because I maintained to them that much of the drụg

smuggling in this country here, which is slowly;

Castro is behind it. A lot of the drug smuggling

has something to do with the terrorist activities

that has been going on here.

So these things I am concerned of, which I

consider National

security to this country.

And

because I, myself, would not want to be directly

involved in any of these things as far as, you know,

being the informant of

anything like that. I made

the connection for these people to go see steve, go

see this, go see that. Get in touch with him, and

then they were,

on their own. I kept out of it.

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Mr. Triplett. Okay:

•Again, why did you use Steve Czukas as a go-

between?

The Witness. Because he had contacts with CIA.

MI. Triplett. To your knowledge was he a CIA

agent or employee?

The Witness.

Steve. Czukas? To my knowledge,

I do not know.

The only thing I know about Steve

Czukas, he is a very influential man with the U.s.

Customs for many years and even though his capacity

is not as an official of that, but he holds great

influence and personally I like him. Tremendous man.

Mr. Triplett.. Are you familiar with Cesar

Diosdado?

The Witness. I have heard of him.: I am not

sure if I am familiar with him or not.

MI. Triplett. Have you had any dealings with

the Immigration and Naturalization Service?

The Witness.

Yes.

Mr Triplett. What type of dealings was that?

The Witness. I had my citizenship taken away

from me in the early '60's when I came from Cuba.

It was because of all the attempts against Castro and

my activities against Castro, which I did not know at

that time the American Government did not want these

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activities to persist.

so naturally, not knowing

this, the Government put pressure on me.

I went with Marcus Diez Lanz to go to Guatemala

to speak with President: yaigoras in Guatemala. And

evidently the Cuban Intelligence service found out

that Diez Lanz and myself were there and we were

eating dinner and here it comes over the television

in the dining room, it

showed my picture and Diez

Lanz' picture, that we were there for the United

States, which was not true, for the United States

Government, arranging for bases in Guatemala to invade

Cuba.

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So that evening at our hotel; the Chief

Intelligence Officer of President Ydigoras told

us that for all. concerned, it would be much better

that we leave Guatemala because of the international

pressure that was

going on by our presence there and

us talking with President Ydigoras. So naturally

we left.

Marcus Diez Lanz decided on his return trip

to the United States we would

go by way of Mexico

in order to arrange for his reentry, or whatever

he had to do, and people he had to see in Mexico,

and I would leave Guatemala directly to Miami.

When I got to Miami I was detained going through

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the gate at Customs and Immigration and they told

me that

I would have to prove -- evidently my name

was on the black list there, and they grabbed me,

took me to a side room and they said you are going

to have to prove that you are an Amercian citizen.

I said, you have got to be kidding. This is my

passport:

Well, we can not accept it. They were

busting my ass. Excuse my language. That is exactly

what they were doing: And I got very angry at them..

Because there was some shit in Washington

going on

because of me and Diez Lanz being in Guatemala with

President Ydigoras.

So they told me, they said, we are

going to

send you back to Guatemala. I says look, I am an

American citizen, I have my passport. In order for

me to

get a passport I have to have my birth certificate.

I

was born in this country and you bastards are not

going tó deport me anyplace because if you deport me

bạck to Guatemala, I

will sneak in the country. What

are you going to do?: You are

going to have to put

me in prison.

Well, they locked my ass up.

Would you believe

it? They did. They locked my ass up.

Right here

in this Post Office here. I got out 30 minutes later.

Then I had a series of things I had to go to on

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Biscayne Boulevard at the Immigration there with Mr.

White who is the presiding officer for the Immigration,

not knowingly every time I had to go there, the

Government, with the Federal Attorney, popped it out,

he says well, Mr. Sturgis is no longer a citizen of

the United States. Here is a paper, a document signed

by the Secretary of State taking away MI. Sturgis'

citizenship.

Well, this little Guinnie (phonetic) here blew

his stack.' And I said,:

all you queers up in

Washington, D.C. in the State Department -- believe

me, on record, on tape there. And I apologized to

Mr. White. And I looked at that Federal prosecutor

and I says, you, and I said if you fall into it with

those queers up there that

you represent, and believe

me, I was

so upset that my lawyer was holding me down.

And I used every filthy word in the language. Take

my citizenship away? Illegal.

I, contacted Mr. George Smathers, Senator Smathers.

Mr.

Smathers contacted the State Department and wrote

a lettey saying you mean to tell me, at the stroke

of a pen, that you took the citizenship of this World

War II hero -- I don't know if I'm a hero or not --

at a stroke of your pen?

He says, well, you know, documents are put in

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front of me and I just sign them. He says, is that

right? He says then I, as a Senator, somebody can

put a document in front of you and you will take my

citizenship away from me. He said well, no, it's

not like that.

And he said, bull shit it is not like

that.

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That is exactly what happened. Well Senator

Smathers told me, he says, Frank - cooked steak for

me at his house with his apron on, and cooked steak

for me and Pedro Diez Lanz -- he says don't worry

about it. He says, if they do not give you your

citizenship back, Frank, I will put a special order

in to the Congress or the Senate and you will get your

citizenship back. And I

got it back eventually.

But can you imagine

the secretary of State

signing my citizenship away and that dirty bastard,

when the war was going, was out screwing while I was

fighting and giving.my blood for this country?

Mr. Rubin.. Okay. Now let's just answer the

questions.

The Witness. Good. But I want it on record

because I am still hot at the State Department.

MI.

Rubin.. Cool off and let's

.90 .

The Witness.

I got hot about it.. The more

I think about it.

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Mr. Triplett. Was that early 1960's or late

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The Witness. I don't know. : It had to be early

1960.

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Mr. Triplett.

All right.

The Witness: This was before the Bay of Pigs.

Before everybody got the bases in Guatemala and

Nicaragua.

You know what I mean? So it had to be --

I would say exactly 1960.

Mr. Triplett. Have you had any other

associations with the Immigration and Naturalization

Service?

The Witness.

I do not think so.

Not that I

recall.

Mr. Triplett. How about the United States

Secret Service?

The Witness.

No.

Not that I recall.

Mr. Triplett. Alcohol,: Tobacco and Firearms?

The Witness: Not that I recall. I mean they

used to run'after me years ago, you know, "the ATA --

Alcohol, Tobacco -F

Mr. Triplett. And Firearms.

Firearms.

The ATF. Years ago,

The witness:

you know, because of my activities against Castro.

But otherwise not that I remember. If I did it was

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years ago and I do not recall.

MI. Triplett. Aside from you

being a police

officer in Norfolk, Virginia, have you had

any

associations with any local law enforcement agencies?

The Witness. Here?

Mr. Triplett. Here, of anywhere in the country?

The Witness.

Well here, organized crime -- I

have Cuban friends of mine haturally; and we want to

know whát 1s going on. And in order to know what is

going on, we have contact with everybody, you know.

Because that is how we pick up information.

For instance this WFC Corporation, what is

going on now, this big investigation that is going

on now.

Naturally the people, I received information

that these people were behind certain killings here

and we

suspect them of being Castro agents. As a

matter of fact this Salvadore, however you pronounce

his last name, either his brother or his first cousin

is a top Cuban General in Cuba. And this guy --

look at me:

look at my bank account, and here this

dirty bastard come in from Cuba into exile and the

guy is a millionaire, see..

In exile, coming here;

playing footsies. He's a millionaire. Me, I am

dying to make a living around here. You know. But

that is the way do, you know:

They want to play spy

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and they want to play their little games. And I

get angry at the Government because the Government

knows all this and the Government don't do a God-

Damned thing about it. And they run around with

their big yachts and their Cadillacs and people

like me

got to struggle in this world.

MI. Triplett. Let's take a five minute

break.

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(A short recess was taken.)

Mr. Triplett.. Okay, let's

get started again.

At this point, Mr. Sturgis, we would like

to just make a record of your employment history

from the time of 1952 when you got a discharge. from

the

United

States Army to date.

Do you have a record of that available?

The Witness. To date -- let me make this

recora, if my Attorney will look at this also -- I

have this newspaper card signed by the Sheriff of

Dade County. Show it to Mr. Fonzi.

Mr. Triplett.

Let the record reflect that

Mr. Sturgis is showing us a Dade County Public

Safety Department News Media Card indicating he

is a news reporter for Elexpresso, which is a

newspaper.

The Witness:

Spanish newspaper, yes.

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Mr. Triplett.

Okay.

Why don't I advise you

of; what we know.

You

got out of the Army in 1952?

The Witness.

Yes.

Mr. Triplett. And from

152 to 1954 you were

part owner and manager of the Top Hat night club

in Virginia Beach?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett. Did you have any other employment

during that period of '52 to '54?

The Witness.

Well, before that I owned a bar

ön East Main Street. And I am trying to remember the

name of the bar.

But it is there because I had to

be registered, you know, with the City, in order to

have the license.

Mr. Triplett.

All right.

After 1954 what did you do for employment?

The Witness.: I think I worked with a steel

company building a gasoline storage tank, Bethlehem

Steel, building storage tanks.

I worked real

estate.

I was a real estate salesman in Norfolk.

Mr. Triplett.

Were you on salaried employment

in these jobs?

The Witness. I believe so, yes:

Mr. Triplett. During the

year 1955, did you have

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occasion to be in Panama?

The Witness: 1955? I am not sure, sir..

In

1955?

I don't believe so.

Mr. Triplett. Did you happen to be in Panama

at the time that President Ramon was assassinated?

The Witness.

No, sir.

MI. Triplett.

"You were not?

The Witness. No.' I did know --

Mr. Rubin.

(Interposing) Now Frank, that is

what I mean. Why don't you just answer the questions.

The Witness

No, I

was not.

Mr. Triplett. Well, my next question is, what.

did you know?

The Witness. Again, the Panamanian exiles:

contacted many of us in the Cuban Government in 1959.

One of the persons who contact me, which I found out

later supposedly was involved in the

assassination

of the President of Panama rea

MI. Triplett. (Interposing) And who was that?

The Witness. I forget his name right now.

I

did have his name.

Mr. Triplett. ' Could:I suggest Rubin Mirrow?

(phonetic) •

The Witness.

Right. That is the man.

Mr. Triplett. Where did you meet Rubin Mirrow?

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The Witness.

I met Rubin Mirrow in Havana.

And I am not sure whether it was the Air Force Base

or not. Or maybe in one of the restaurants. I am:

not sure specifically the place where I met him.

Mr. Triplett.. Did you have occasion to visit

Rubin Mirrow while he was in prison?

The Witness. No. But I knew him before he

got in prison. As a matter of fact he sent somebody

out to contact me to help him get out of prison.

Mr. Triplett. Who was that person?

The Witness.

I do not remember who it was.

Mr. Triplett. Was it a man or woman?

The Witness. A man. I think it was a man.

Mr. Triplett: During this same period of time

did you have occasion to meet a Judith Campbell?

The Witness.

•NO.

Mr. Triplett. Okay:

Going back to 1956, is that when you first

arrived in Cuba?

The Witness.

Approximately, yes.

Mr. Triplett. And you remained in Cuba

through --

The Witness. (Interposing) No. I was traveling

back and forth.

Mr. Triplett. Who financed this travel?

The Witness. These were

like Prio.: Prio's

group.

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Some was my own personal finance, but others were.

on monies, you know, from the group itself.

MI. Triplett. Did you ever have occasion to

manage a night club in Cuba?

The Witness.

Never worked with no night club

in Cuba. Never worked for anybody in Cuba but the

Cuban Government.

Mr. Triplett.

Okay:

And in traveling back and forth, what was

your purpose in traveling?

The

Witness.

Strictly to maintain

contact with

the underground organization. With their officials.

MI. Triplett. Now in the course of these travels

you were in Florida, Mexico, Venezuela, Costa Rica,

Guatemala, Panama, Hondouras, Mexico, the Bahamas?

The Witness.

YeS.

Mr. Triplett. Any other places that you

traveled during that time?

The Witness.

New York, Washington.

Mr. Triplett.: And

then you were still working

in or out of Cuba through the middle of 1959.

Is

that correct?

The Witness.

sir.

Mr. Triplett.. When you left Cuba and came back

to the United States, where did you go to work? Or

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what was your employment?

The Witness.

I had a company that was formed

called Hampton Roads Salvage Company.

MI. Triplett. Hampton Roads Salvage Company?

The Witness: Yes.

MI. Triplett. And was that

a corporation?

The Witness: Yes, sir. It

was a Florida

corporation.

Mr. Triplett. Who were the incorporators?

The Witness.. I am not sure. It is going back

so many years ago. But it is on.

record in Tallahassee.

Mr. Triplett. Well as a mattér of fact, MI.

Sturgis, wasnot that Hampton Roads Salvage Company

incorporated in 1961?

The Witness.

was it '61? Possibly, yes.

MI. Triplett. When you first came out of Cuba,

what did you do for a living?

The Witness. I think we opened up a business:

Mr. Triplett.

Who is we?

The Witness.

Marcus; Pedro and myself.

Mr. Triplett. What kind of business?

The Witness.

I think it was on 17th. Avenue.*

We had an office on 17th Avenue..

Oh, wait a minute.

I had an office in Coral Gables, import-export

business.

That is

Fight. I forgot all

about that.

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business?

The Witness.

Not too long. Because naturally

when I had lost my contacts inside. of Cuba -- because

I was going back and forth - naturally that was the

end of the business.:

Because of my. connections in

Cuba. The

fact that my position in Cuba was totally

disconnected. So I had to

go ahead and close up

that office and close up that business.

MI. Triplett. What did you do

after you closed

that business?

The Witness. Well, Marcus and Pedro Diez Lanz

naturally were in exile here. And being in exile

here, we contacted - when I say we, sometimes I

was with them, sometimes I was not with them -- they

were in touch with various business interests in the

Cuban colony. Cuban business interests.

be Barcardi. And then there were other --

One would

Mr. Triplett. (Interposing) One would be who?

The Witness. Barcardi Rum. And they naturally

gave us money.

Mr. Triplett.

You say a corporation. Who were

the people who gave you the money? The corporation

doesn't give you the money.

The Witness.

That would be Bosch himself

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personally. The owner of Barcardi. Other people

who gave money, they had an office here and their

main office was in New York, was this Cuban newspaper.

It was one of the biggest newspapers in Havana at

that time and they came into exile. And, what's

the name of this magazine, Spanish magazine? The

biggest one in Cuba. And they gave money to the

Diez Lanz'.

And these are the monies that we more or less

lived on in order to continue our resistence, you know,

against the Castro Government.

MI. Triplett.

So essentially you were

supporting

yourself by either planning or carrying out raids

against Cuba at that time? That was your source of

support?

The Witness.

Yes. From the Cuban colony itself.

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Yes:

Mr. Triplett. The Spanish magazine. Would that

be Bohemia? (phonetic).

The Witness.

Bohemia. Right.

MI. Triplett. Did you ever receive any funds

from the Catherwood Foundation?

The Witness:' Who?

Mr. Triplett. The Catherwood Foundation?

The Witness.

Myself, no

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Mr. Triplett. Well, your organization, or

were you aware of any support received from them?

The Witness. Iwas not aware of it.

No.

Mr. Triplett. Then in september, 1961, you.

incorporated the Hampton Roads Salvage

Company?

The Witness.

Of Florida.

Mr. Triplett.

With Pedro and Marcus Diez Lanz.

What was the nature of that business?

The Witness.: Well, we tried to do some salvage

work. Buying and selling of boats and so forth.

At the same time it was to be used in the

operations against Cuba.

Funding for that corporation came from the exile

community who did have contact with the Government.

I,

myself directly, had nothing to do with receiving

the funds personally, but the Diez Lanz brothers did

receive the funds which was put in the account for

Hampton Roads Salvage Company.

Four boats were bought. A PC boat wäs bought.

Another boat called the lusa was bought. Two moppies

(phonetic) were bought from Bertrum's Yacht Company

and these boats were used -- primarily the idea of

the company, was to be used in CIA operations.

My boat -- well, our boat -- this one moppy, went

on numerous operations where another friend gf mine, a

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Cuban, his name is Salvador Garcia who worked for

the Central Intelligence Agency, went on infiltration

supply missions: to Cuba and so forth. This primarily

was what the company was used for.

Mr. Triplett. Primarily for CIA operations?

The Witness. Well, let me say, primarily for

us to make a living. Even though it was funded by

the Cuban business community, but CIA had use of these

boats.

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Mr. Triplett. On a contract basis?

The Witness. Anytime they wanted, the boat

was available.

Plus we were available also to do

the operations.

MI. Triplett. Oh, they paid for it then? Is

that yes

Or

nO?

Did you receive pay. for it?

The Witness.

I have never received

any pay

from CIA.

MI. Triplett. Did the company -- not the

company meaning CIA, but the company meaning Hampton

Roads$Salvage Company of Florida -- receive funds

for these

-

The Witness.

(Interposing) From the Cuban

business colony.

Mr. Triplett. In other words, it wasn't

contributing the services?

There was some sort of

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pay. from somebody?

The Witness.

Yes.

Right.

Mr.

Triplett.

Now you mentioned a boat named

the lusa?

The Witness

Yes.

Mr. Triplett. How did it get that name?

The Witness.

Well, this is the name, when

Hampton Roads Salvage Company bought the boat. I

believe Bertrums was the seller of the boat and

Hampton Roads Salvage Company bought it from Bertrums.

Mr. Triplett.

well, Bertrums is a boat dealer,

isn't

it?

The Witness.

Broker.

Mr. Triplett.

Broker. So who was the previous

owner?

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The Witness. I don't know. They would have

the records.

Mr. Triplett. And it had that name when you

gọt it?

The Witness. I think so:

Yes.

Mr. Triplett.. What did that name mean to you,

if anything?

The Witness. Nothing. The boat meant something

but the name does not mean anything to me.

Mr. Triplett.

Qusa being spelled?

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The Witness. Q-ü-s-a.

lusa.

Mr. Triplett.. How long did the Hampton Roads

Company exist?

The Witness. A couple of years, I imagine,

approximately. More or less.

MI. Triplett. And were you involved with this

operation in day to day activities during that period?

The Witness. Part of it, yes.

Part of it, yes.

Part of it, no.

Mr. Triplett. Did you have any other gources

of income at that time?

The Witness. Just what I told you.

Mr. Triplett.

What, from the raids?

The Witness. From monies received

from the

business

community in order to do operations. Which

in particular this is one type of operation that we

did.

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Mr. Triplett. Well now to make it very clear,

you received money from the Cuban business community.

To your knowledge, either then or now, was the

source of that money somehow from some other place

than the Cuban business community?

The Witness.

Yes. Because the Cuban business

community had an association with the United States

Government on a very very high level. With the

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President of the United States which was President

Kennedy; directly with Bobby Kennedy himself, because

Bobby Kennedy did take a direct hand in controlling

the Cuban operations before and after the Bay of Pigs

operation.

Oh, wait a minute. Before, yeah, and

after the Bay of Pigs operation, right.

My friends, many of the Cuban leaders, had

personal contact with both Robert Kennedy and the

President.

Mr. Triplett., And who were these friends that

you are speaking of?

The Witness:

, Well,' I am sure Diez Lanz and

others besides them.

Mr. Triplett. Pedro and Marcus?

The Witness.

Yes. And others besides them.

Marlona Artime who naturally I know.

The Diez Lanz

brothers.

DI. Louie Conte Aguerro.

Ricardo Lauri

(phonetic). Nino Diez.

Mr. Triplett. Did you know Minola Rye (phonetic)

at that time?

The Witness.

Minola Rye? Yes.

Mr. Triplett. Could he be one of those that

was in contact?

The Witness.". Yes. Sure.

Mr. Triplett. How about Tony Varona?

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The Witness. Yes. Certainly.

These people had contact

on a very high level,

which I did not. Even though I did meet the President

later myself. But they more or less, as far as

operational procedures with Cuba, they were on that

level. I was not.

Mr. Triplett. After the Hampton Roads Company

dissolved, or whatever --

The Witness. (Interposing) Just faded away.

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Mr. Triplett.

Faded away around 1963 - if my

figuring is correct, some two years after it was

started -- what was your employment of source of

income after that?

si

The Witness: :

Same thing.

With

the Cuban business

colony..

"Mr.

Triplett.

How long did that relationship

continue?

The Witness. For a number of years. Myself,

with the Diez Lanz brothers, more or less.

He had

other things to do.

Pedro, I think went on a

lecture tour. And we were struggling when we were not

getting financial assistance from the Cuban colony. It

was a struggle, you know.

Mr. Triplett.

Did you have any other employment

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that time?

The Witness.: I probably did. But I don't

recall specifically.

It,

is going back so many years,

you know. I could not nail down the specific

employment I had at that particular time.

But I was

continually doing, I know, operations and again

receiving financing from the Cuban business colony.

Mr. Triplett. During that period of time did

you have occasion to sell stories to newspapers and

magazines?

The Witness. At that time, yes.

Yes.

Mr. Triplett. Do you recall

• which newspapers

and magazines?

The Witness. Not off-hand, no.

Mr. Triplett. Have you maintained any income

records for the period of say 1950 to the present?

The Witness. Well naturally, when I did go to

work I paid my taxes when I did work. I paid my

taxes. So I would have some records when I did work.

You know, I paid my taxes.

MI. Triplett.

So those would undoubtedly "indicate

from W-2 forms where and when you had worked, wouldn't

they?

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The Witness. Yes.

Mr. Triplett. Would you have those available, say

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for Mr. Fonzi at sometime to review and just check

with you where you were working?

The Witness.

Yes.

Certainly.

Yes: I would

think my wife does keep our records for the last five

years.

We may even have them longer than five years.

Oh, yes.

Mr. Triplett. Or Mr. Gonzales, if he is a

better accountant.

The Witness. Certainly. Well, I worked

for Pan American, Pan American Aluminum Corporation

for a great number of years.

Mr. Triplett. In what capacity?

The Witness. I was a window and door installer

for them.

Then I went into the sales end of the department.

This is before Watergate, naturally. And then ca!

Watergate, you know.

Mr. Triplett.

Who owned the Pan American

Company that you worked for?

B

- .÷

The Witness.

oh, I don't know.

Some Jewish

fellow: It is a very large company.. Pan American

Aluminum Corporation? Yes. They're off of Biscayne

Boulevard and 183rd Street. As a matter of fact

they sent my work record up to the Watergate

investigators during the watergate trials. §o they

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have a record.

Plus when I got out of prison I worked for a

friend of mine who had an equipment outfit. His

name was Pedro Martinez. I worked for him a short

period of time until he sold his equipment.

Then I went to work with a friend of mine called

Alfredo Navro (phonetic) who had, whose brother and

him had their business at Dodge Island here, called

Dodge Island Repairs..

And I, worked for him for

awhile and then they sold their business.

Then I

went to work again for my friend Pedro

'Martinez. When he sold his equipment he went into

the egg business and I was working with him in the

sales department of his egg business.. Then he sold

that.

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And from the egg business - that is all down

there, you know, in the income tax file.

Mr. Triplett. Then that will be available

• for

us to check?

The Witness.

Yes.

Sure.

And if you can't

get them from me -- I am sure

I have those

records because my wife does keep. the

records year after year.

So there is no problem there.

Mr. Triplett.: Very good.

You mentioned Manuel Artime --

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The Witness. (Interposing) That is Marlona.

Mr. Triplett. Marlona Artime.

The

Witness. Right.

Mr. Triplett. You mentioned Marlona Artime as

one of those that had contact with high people in

the government.

The

Witness.

Yes.

MI. Triplett. What exactly was your relationship

during the early 1960's with Marlona Artime?

The Witness. Well, I knew Marlona Artime.

Marlona Artime came out of Cuba working with the CIA.

He went into South America and then he came up to --

because we more or less

founded here in exile, the

MrR movement and with the funds that, the MRR movement

was getting from Central Intelligence Agency, one

of the

safe houses that we had was on Brickell Avenue,

and Marlona occasionally came there to Brickell Avenue

because we used that as an office.

And many of the

Cuban exiles

who worked for the Agency and did not

work for the Agency, coming out of Cuba, this was the

first place they would come to, the Brickell Avenue

safe house.

Mr. Triplett. Now you say Marlona Artime came

out of Cuba working for the CIA.

To your knowledge,

was he working

for the CIA before he left Cuba?

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The

Witness. I am not sure really. Because

again I will say I did not know Mariona Artime in

Cuba. I

only met Marlona after he came out of Cuba.

when he came out of Cuba, I do not know

where

he made his contact with CIA or they made contact

with him. Either in South America or here in Miami.

When he came to Miami he was under the control

of CIA.

MI. Triplett.

"I see.

And the Brickell Avenue -- you would refer to

that as a safe house, at Brickell Avenue?

The Witness.

Yes.

That is what it was:

This is where Geraldine Shamma had her little

apartment in the back up on the second floor. Because

downstairs

was

the garage.. I do not know whether it

was a double or triple garage.

It is still there on

Brickell Avenue today.

Mr. Triplett. You had,. I presume, various

meetings there?

The Witness.

•yes..

All there, yes.

Mr. Triplett.. And that included yourself and

the Diez Lanz brothers?

The Witness:

Yes. And many others.

Mr. Triplett. Eduardo?

The Witness:

NO.

Eduardo never came there.

At

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least not to my knowledge. Eduardo never came there.

Because he did not have direct contact with us.

Mr. Triplett. Well, he did in

a sense have

control, did he not?

The Witness.

Well, the political.

Again the

political aspects of the thing. Remember, I was

military.

•Mr. Triplett. But the financing too, was

dependent upon the political aspects, were they not?

The Witness. Yes.

Mr. Triplett.

So in that sense he did have

a

• fairly important control over the operations?

The Witness.

Yes.

But that is people other than myself. For

instance like Artime and other people. They had

direct control with him.

I did not.

Mr. Triplett. I see.

You, I am sure in many interviews, both

official and unofficial, have been questioned as to

where you were on November 22nd, 1963.

The Witness.

Yes.

Mr. Triplett. My first question in this area,

is where were you on the evening of November 21st, 1963?

The Witness. I am quite sure that I was here

in Miami.

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Mr. Triplett.

On what do you base that assurance?

The Witness: I really can not say. I was here

on the 22nđ.

Mr. Triplett. (Interposing) The 22nd is the

day of the assassination. I am talking about the

evening prior.

The Witness. I had to be

here.

I had to be

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Mr. Triplett.

Again,-I know in your own mind

it is clear, but if you can verbalize it, how do

you know you had to be here?

The Witness. Well, the only thing I can say

is

the witnesses who have told me, for instance, my

mother-in-law, my nephew. He lived with me.

My

wife, myself and I believe Jim Bucanhan, I believe

Bill Johnson, because we were involved in air

operations at that time.

Mr. Triplett. Are you saying you later discussed

it with all of these people?

The Witness:

Oh, when this thing started

coming out, naturally, certainly I discussed it with

them.. Because I had to put clear in my mind where

Iwas before.

I knew where I was that day because

I

saw it on television.

I saw it on television.

MI. Triplett. Did you see it when it occurred, or

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on

reruns?

The Witness. I imagine it was reruns on.

television that day.

As a matter of fact when Marita Lorenz made

these accusations. and I went to New York and I was

ärrested by the New York Police Department, and I

was released on bond, I immediately told my Attorney,

that I wanted to take a polygraph examination.

In the past, I volunteered to take á polygraph

examination with the Watergate Committee, with the

Rockerfeller Committee, and volunteered with every

committee to take a polygraph.

Now here, with this mess that Marita Lorenz

created, I

asked my lawyer, I want to take a polygraph.

And I did take a polygraph and i passed the polygraph.

Mr. Triplett. Well, when you say you passed,

you are telling us that the finding

was that you were

not deceptive in your answers?

The Witness:

That is right. And if you would

like to ask me questions of what I was asked and what

my answers

were, I would be very happy to tell you.

MI. Triplett. Frankly I do not want to get

into a second hand account of some other polygraph.

The Witness. All right.

Mr. Triplett.

And

again, just to make our record

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clean, I know you have been asked and answered these

questions many times before:

But where exactly where

were you on November 22nd when President Kennedy was

assassinated?

The Witness. At my home at 2515 Northwest 122

Street, Miami, Florida, zip code 33167.

21-77

Mr. Triplett.

And that is still your home today?

The Witness. Yes.

MI. Triplett. .

What were you doing at that time

at your home?

The Witness.

Possibly: I was sleeping or I

was in the bedroom. • And I believe my mother-in-law

came, you know, and said that

there was some news

on the television that the President was assassinated.

Mr. Triplett. . I believe there is two hours

time difference between Florida and Texas.

So that

would have made it about 2:30 in the afternoon, on

a Friday afternoon.

Were you unemployed at that time?

Why were not

you at work?

The Witness. I was again doing operations,

before, during and after that particular time.

Mr. Triplett.

I see.

And who else was at your home at that time?:

The Witness. Just the people I mentioned. It

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was my mother-in-law, my nephew. my wife, myself.

And as a matter of fact, Jim Bucanhan did mention to.

me during all this exposure over the JFK assassination

that he came over, he tola me that he came over to

the house that afternoon and that I left with him that

afternoon.

• So there is a possible outside witness

other than my family who knew that I was there that

particular.day.

Mr. Triplett. Jim Bucanhan?

The Witness.

Jim Bucanhan, yes.

Also a William Johnson, who was doing a series

of operations with me.

• I believe that he can verify

that I was in town before and after the assassination.

MI. Triplett. Do you know where William Johnson

is currently located?

•₫ .

The Witness.

Yes, sir. He lives in. Miami today

and he lives off of Brickell Avenue in Sansusi Estates.

I do have his phone number.. His phone number is

893-6013.

His address I don't know because I know

how to get there; you know. But I do have his

address

in my address book in my automobile.: It is no problem.

If he wishes to have it,, I will give it to Mr. Fonzi.

Mr. Triplett. Now you have mentioned a couple

of times in other answers, the allegations recently

made by Marita Lorenz.

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Let me ask you specifically, did you, in the

company of Marita Lorenz, Leon Oswald and others,.

drive to Dallas a day or two before the assassination?

The Witness. Sir, that is an absolute lie. I

have never been with Marita lorenz and Osie, as she

calls him, or with Pedro Diez Lanz, of Marcus Diez

Lanz, or "Dy: Orlando Bosch, or Jerry Patrick, which

she claimed all of us besides some other Cubans, were

in two automobiles and left Miami, Florida two days

before the assassination of the President of the

United

States.

She is a liar. I took a polygraph

examination to that effect that I have never been

involved in any conspiracy to kill the president of

the United States, nor did

I kill the President of

the United States, not was I with her at any

time

conspiring to kill the President of the United States,

nor was I with her in any automobile with these people

Of any other people going to Dallas to plot to kill

the President of the United States.

She is an absolute

liar

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Mi. Triplett. Well, not getting into her

character, which I am certain you have very strong

emotions about, it is your testimony then that that

is not true? You never made such à trip?

The Witness.

Not only not true, she is. a liar,

13:.

lid.

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and I believe

Mr. Rubin. (Interposing) No.

Just tell him,

did you make the trip?

The Witness.

No.

I did not make the trip, sir.

Mi. Triplett. Very good:

Thank you.

At any time during the year 1963, were you in

Dallas, Texas?

The witness. I have went, because of operations

that I had been doing and so forth, traveled through

Texas into Mexico, into Central America, in and out.

And I would say yes, sir, I probably have been through

nöt only Dallas, but other cities in Texas.

Mr. Triplett. Now specifically around June

Yes, sir.

or July of '63, dia you go to Dallas: for the purpose

of purchasing weapons?

The Witness. I have never been to Dallas where

•I stayed at any particular instance in order to buy

any weapons or anything in Dallas or anyplace in Texas.

Anytime I went through Têxas it was strictly

transient.

Mr. Triplett.

Your answer begs a question a

little bit.

Whether or not you stayed in Dallas for

the purpose of buying weapons. Did you ever go to

Dallas to buy weapons around June or July of '63?

The Witness.

No, sir.

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Mr." Triplett.

Were you ever in an automobile

with Heming, Bosch and Marita Lorenz in the Florida

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The Witness.

• No, sir.

Mr.

Triplett. Never?

The Witness. No, sir. With Marita Lorenz, DI.

•Orlando Bosch and Jerry Patrick Heming?

Mr..Triplett. Correct?

The Witness.

No, sir:

Mr Triplett. Now: you have mentioned both

Jerry and Jim Bucanhan in a lot of your other answers.

And it is correct,

is it not, that they are primarily

journalists by trade?

Newspaper men?

The Witness. Primarily..-Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett. And have you, on occasion,

provided them with information to incorporate into

articles, or which they did in fact incorporate into

articles?

The

Witness:

Some.. Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett. And could you give us some

estimate on how many occasions this may have occurred?

The Witness.

No, sir. I couldn't give you a

correct estimate.. No.

Mr. Triplett. But would it be a fair statement

to say that you have provided them with information

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that they have used in articles on numerous occasions?

The Witness. Some.

Some of the articles they

used. Some. Yes. I won't go into details. Some

of it, yes.

Mr. Triplett. And this would be both about --

well first -- some of this information would have been

about your anti-Castro activities?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

MI. Triplett. And some of the information

would have been your views, or reactions regarding

the numerous allegations concerning the assassination

of President Kennedy?

The Witness.

Some, yes.

Because I do not

agree with everything the newspaper reporters write.

' Mr. Triplett. Well, I am sure we all understand

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that.

But you have provided them on occasions with

information regarding your views as to the assassination?

The Witness.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett. And the allegations?

The Witness.

That is right.

Mr. Triplett. Would it be fair to say the

same regarding Paul Mescal (phonetic)?

The Witness.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett.

You have provided him with such

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information on occasion and has subsequently been used

in articles?

The Witness.

Yes, sir. Even though I do not

agree with everything he writes, yes,

sir.

Mr. Triplett. And how about Andrew St. George?

The Witness. He is a lying son-of-a-bitch.

Mr. Triplett. I did not ask about his

character.

The Witness.. It is not his character. He is

a 'liar.

Mr. Triplett.: Have you had occasion to be

interviewed by him, or have him ask you for information

that

has subsequently been used either for or against

you in articles and publications?

The Witness. I have never

given this man

information during the watergate trials, and what

he has written about his association with me pertaining

to a number of things, this is why I say he is a

lying son-of-a-bitch.

But in the past, yes. Because in Cuba, he was

there as a

free-lance photographer, reporter and so

forth and he was in touch with me.

Yes.

But I have

nột seen him after we left Cuba. The last time I

saw him was just before the watergate thing.

This man is typical of some of the news media

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reporting.

And I say some of them, because not all

of them are that way.

Mr. Triplett.

So, you are saying that from

at least June 1960 until, the early 1970's, you did

not see Andrew St. George?

The Witness: Not to my knowledge. In all those

years I have not seen Andrew St. George.

piu:

Mr. Triplett. Has he ever tape recorded an

interview with you?

The Witness. It is possible. I don't know.

I'm not sure. I do not think so. At least I am not

aware of it.:

Mr. Triplett.

Have you talked with him over

the phone during that same period?

The Witness. Yes.

MI.

Triplett. How many occasions?

The Witness.

On a number of occasions. He was

trying to get me to sign a contract to write a book.

And because of my feelings of his underhanded ways of

going about it and with him not wanting to

have my

Attorney look over the contract, i did not

sign a

contract with him. So I blew the deal.

Mr. Triplett. Now have you personally had

occasion to investigate the various allegations

regarding the assassination of John F. Kennedy?

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The Witness. As much as I could financially.

.Because again, my financial -- this thing has not

come about until after the watergate situation and

my financial situation since Watergate has completely

destroyed

me. + But what monies I did have and so

forth, in buying certain books and researching them,

and also obtaining from friends of mine who at one

time did have a connection with CIA and documents that

these people have shown me and given me, I have: tried

by best to show that there was a link between Ruby

and Oswald, which would show that there was a

conspiracy to kill the President of the United States.

MI. Triplett. Have you worked with, or

cooperated with Jack Anderson in any of these

investigative efforts?

The Witness.

Well, when

you say worked, no.

I have never worked for Jack Anderson.

Mr. Triplett. Have you provided information

to him; possibly the results of your own investigative

efforts?

The

Witness. Well I would say Jack and I have

been in touch over the period of years since I came

from Cuba. I met Jack in Washington, D.C. with

Pedro Diez Lanz, and he was trying to help us. He

was one of the first newspaper people in this country

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to denounce Fidel Castro as a Communist. Especially

with

an

interview, that he had with Pedro Diez Lanz

and myself.

And also the fact that Pedro Diez Lanz, myself

and his brother drove from Miami to washington to

the Senate Committee on --I forget the correct name

of the Committee -- but pertaining to the Communist

infiltration in the Cuban Government and military,

notifying the American Government of the Communist

infiltration, you know, naturally, in Cuba.

Jack Anderson, over the period of years has

been in touch with me where it pertains"to anything

that goes on in Latin America because I am aware of

it, because of my close connection in the Cuban colony.

I am aware of a number of things that goes on in a

number of the countries, especially in Cuba.

Where it comes that Cuba is involved in many

things,. I will go out to see my friends who give me

information because we try to keep up. to date on the

Cuban situation in this hemisphere.

And Jack has

asked me certain things which I will not give Jack,

as a néwspaper man, a lot of information that I feel

he should not have.

Mr. Triplett.

Have you ever given, or passed

on information to Jack Anderson at the request or

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suggestion of any Government Intelligence Agency?

The Witness. No, sir, I have not.

As a matter of fact when I came from Cuba years

ago, Jack Anderson thought I might be a good asset

to the CIA and wanted me to be introduced to an Admiral

who at the time was a high ranking CIA official, and

I refused.

Because of my involvement here naturally.

Mr. Triplett. Now wait, I do not understand

that.

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You refused to be introduced --

The Witness.: (Interposing) To a high ranking

CIA official who was an Admiral. Had the rank of

Admiral at that time.

Mr. Triplett. And why?

The Witness. Because of my work that I was doing

here that I did not want to tell Jack of my association

with my friends with the United States Government in

this area.

Mr. Triplett. And your, friends.

You are talking

about CIA assets here, or the anti-Castro Cubans?

The Witness. I am talking about my Cuban friends

who had close connections with the American Government

from the President all the way down, and the Agencies

that were involved.

Mr. Triplett.

Now I believe I asked you this

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already, but I just want to make it very clear.

Did you ever

conduct an investigation into

the assassination of John F. Kennedy?

The Witness.

As much as I could on my own,

you know, my own financial status in the last number

of years. Naturally, by talking with friends of

mine who have past CIA connections.

Mr. Triplett. Was any of this ever in

neonjunction with E. Howard Hunt?

The

Witness. No. No, sir.

MI. Triplett. Did you ever do any investigation

into the assassination as far back as 1964?

•The Witness. Well, as far back as 1964, this

turmoil of the President being assassinated naturally,

you know, had a

great effect on us here in the Cuban

exile colony. So naturally we tried to go ahead and

get all the information that we possibly could.

And the information that I have received was

that Castro's Intelligence Service was involved in

the

assassination.

Mr. Triplett. And did you turn that information

over to the Warren Commission

at that time?

The Witness. No, sir. The information that

was turned over by my friends were turned over to a

MI. Al Tarabuchia here in the South Florida area,

and

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also to the FBI through friends of mine.

Mr. Triplett. What is MI. Al Tarabuchia's

position, or what was it at that time?

The Witness.

I forget. I think he worked --

I couldn't exactly tell you the correct name because

I could be wrong and you know, I

don't know, but he

did work with

the Government.

Whether it was

internal security, but we did know that he had

somewhat of

an involvement eyen before the Bay of

Pigs invasion, you know. He was a conduit, let's

say, for the

Government in this

area here.

And I could possibly go as far as saying that

Mi. Tarabuchi also was a person who might have been

in touch with the Dade County, you know, the local

law enforcement agencies for the Federal Government

at that time.

MI. Triplett.. You say there was an involvement

by Cuban Intelligence in the assassination? Is that

what you said?

The Witness.

• Yes, sir..

Mr. Triplett.

On what evidence do'you base

that?

The Witness.

Most of it hearsay evidence, sir.

MI. Triplett. Okay.. What is the nature of the

hearsay evidence, other than the conclusion that it

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was somehow involved with Cuban intelligence? In

what way?

The Witness.

Well, when' I say it was mostly

hearsay, for instance, Oswald left the United States

so easily to

go into Russia, when at that particular

time it was so difficult for any foreigner to get

into Russia, and difficult for any Russians to leave

Russia. Here, Oswald had an easy entry into Russia;

Oswald spent approximately two, two and a half years

in Russia; he spent his time in Minsk where there

was an intelligence school there for Cuban intelligence

officers.

We believed at that particular time, and

I believe until this present day, that Oswald's

contact was with the Cuban Intelligence Service because

of this school that was there.

He left Russia so easily! taking a Russian wife

whose uncle was a high ranking intelligence officer.

Took his child. that was born in Russia so easily and

came back:

One or two people who had an association with

the

American Embassy made contact with Oswald in

Russia, which I believe either work for the Central

Intelligence Agency, or they were briefed before

talking with Oswald, or briefed after the interview

with Oswald. Again, Oswald coming into the United

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States, into the area of Dallas and New Orleans and

so. forth, the Mohrenschildt's close relationship

with him, which I suspected the Mohrenschildts was

working or had an association with Central Intelligence

Agency.

Oswald's contact with Cuban Intelligence Agency

in that area.

Oswald

I going to Mexico City, making

contactiwith the Russian and Cuban Embassy, spending

five days there. And if anybody has been to Mexico

City,

you know that you just

don't lay around Mexico

City. It costs

?

lot of money.

A great deal of money.

And all these, with some evidence pertaining

to this association and the connection between Ruby

and oswald, with the evidence that was turned over

tö the FBI in Dallas by individuals who had physical

control of this evidence, the FBI sent it to headquarters

in Washington, getting a receipt that this evidence

was put in the National Archives. And that eventually

when the FBI returned, and other people investigating

the assassination finding out about this evidence,

went to the Archives to find this evidence which

linked Oswald and Ruby, this evidence completely

disappeared.

So systematically over the years, many people

investigating the National Archives have found that

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there is evidence that. has been systematically lost

or stolen or destroyed.

But there, is record that

this evidence was there.

Mr. Triplett.

Iunderstand what you're saying,

MI.

Sturgis, what you related. Now the basic

evidence which has been discussed in virtually

hundreds of books to date, and which is used for

the premise of at least half a dozen theories on who

was or may have been involved, and I still don't

understand the connection you use to put this evidence,

to say okay, that indicates to me, Frank Sturgis,

that there was involvement of Cuban

Intelligence as

opposed to

any of a half-dozen other potential groups.

., I think my question is, is there anything

specific that indicates to you, above and beyond what

we

already

have in the books, that yes, Cuban Intelligence

was involved as opposed to other possible -- well, I'll

admit I am asking you to speculate..

The Witness.. Only what I have turned over to

the Government

in the past. Information

and documents

that I have turned over in the past, which they have

and which is on record.

That is the only thing I can go

by.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

There are just a

few more names that I want to ask you about to see if

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you have any knowledge of them or had any associations

with them.

Are you familiar with a Rich Lauchli, spelled

L'-a-u-c-h-l-i?

The Witness.

YeS.

MI. Triplett.'

When and how did you first meet

him?

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The Witness. I do not know how I met him, but

I know at one time another friend of mine who has

been a newspaper man -- his name is Yamas Montez

(phonetic) :- Yamas Montez is a person who was in

close contact with General Wesson in the Dominican

Republic, but I won't go into that because it has

nothing to do with this.

Mr. Triplett. Your association with Rich

Läuchli.

The Witness.. And him and I took a trip over

to Rich Lauchli.

I think it was in Chicago. He

had a farm, or at his home, or something in Chicago,

where we bought a number of equipment from him. And

he

belonged to an organization.

: I'm: trying to remember

the name of the organization. "

The Minute Men

organization. And somehow we found out, because

evidently they must have sent people into this area

here. And it is possible

that. I met him down here in

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this area here, trying to

go ahead and sell the

Cuban revolutionaries guns and equipment that we

would need to fight against Castro..

Now I do not know how I met this man, but I

did meet the man and I did

go get some minor equipment

from him. From this Richard Lauchli. And after

that I never had any more contact with him.

Mr. Triplett. That was during the early 1960's

you were talking about?

The Witness. Yes.

MI. Triplett. Did you ever have an occasion

to meet a Mitch Warbell?

The Witness. I do not recall ever personally:

meeting Mitch Warbell, but I have spoken with Mitch

Warbell. And Mitch Warbell says he knew me 15 years

ago, and I do not recall.

Mr. Triplett. Well, if you spoke with him,

sometime or another you met him. Correct?

The Witness.

telephone

Well, not personally.

Over the

Mr. Triplett. I see.

The Witness. I don't ever recall meeting the

man personally.

MI. Triplett. Are you familiar with a

man

named Bernardo DiToros (phonetic)?

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The Witness.

No. I do

"not

How do you pronounce that name again?

MI. Triplett. DiToros?

recall the name.

The Witness.

NO.

Mr. Iriplett. How about a man named Doug

Gupton (phonetic)?

The Witness.

No.

Mr. Triplett. David Phillips?

The Witness.. He is another son-of-a-bitch.

Chief of Western Hemisphere Division, CIA.

Mr. Triplett. Did you ever have any

association with him at

any time?

**':

The Witness. I honestly do not know whether

I met him at the Embassy in Havana.:

But he was

stationed at the Embassy in Havana. And if he was

stationed there, which supposedly he was when I was

there, he is nothing but a pro-communist bastard.

You will have to excuse my language, but this is

what I think of people. I am so strongly anti-

communist and so strongly anti-castro, that these

are the type of people that made a lot of my friends

get killed in Cuba for nothing.

Mr. Triplett. But to the best of your recollection

at this point, you do not recall any meetings with him?

The Witness.

With Phillips? No.

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Mr. Triplett. All right:

Have you ever met with

John Martino?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett. When and where have you met with

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The

Witness.: In Havana, Cuba.

Mr.

Triplett. And would you please relate what

occurred at that meeting, or those meetings?

; &

The Witness. Well, he came to meet me because

he heard about me being with the Castro forces and

he introduced himself to me and that was it, really.

Then

I think he got in some trouble in Havana.

And the reason why he got in trouble in Havana was

because he was black marketing, selling Cuban money.

Buying

and selling Cuban money. That is why he was

arrested.

And that is all I know about Martino except

he came to the United States and I believe he did come

over to my house at 60th court at another time and

so forth.

That is the only thing I remember.

Mr. Triplett. What happened when he came to

your house?

The Witness. I don't know. I said I believe

that he probably came over to my house. Because I

had a lot of people come

over to see Pedro and myself.

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My home on 60th Court was like, you know,

the

headquarters for our organization.

Mr. Triplett. Okay. John Martino got arrested

in Cuba.

You said you met with him?

The Witness.

He met me in Cuba. Under what

circumstances I forget really, where I first met Martino

in Cuba.

Mr. Triplétt.. You do not recall any, purpose

for meeting with him?

The Witness. : NO.

He came to meet me.

There

is a lot of people that came to Cuba wanted to meet me

because I was one of several Americans who were with

the Castro Gorilla Forces:

MI. Triplett. Okay., But you do not recall

the purpose? Why he came to meet you?

The Witness.

No. Not really: He just wanted

to meet me. I do not recall the purpose.

No.

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever had any association

with Opus Dei?

The Witness. No:

Not that I fecall. I don't

know the man

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever been involved in

an assassination attempt on, Fidel Castro in company

with Lionel Gomez?

The Witness.

I know Lionel Gomez. Myself personally

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no.

An assassination attempt with him? No.

Mr. Triplett.., Have you ever planned an

assassination with him?

The Witness. He discussed it with me, you know,

and all that.

Again, you can talk about something and unless

you have got the funding, you can't do nothing.

Mr. Triplett:

Okay. So he discussed it with

you and so you discussed it with him, right?

The Witness..

Well, he discussed it with me.

I told him to forget about it. No possible way..

MI. Triplett. Have you ever been involved in

any operations with Joe Rabell?

• ja

The Witness. I don't know Joe Rabell.

Mr. Triplett. You never met a Joe Rabell?

• The Witness. Unless he come under a

different

name.

No Joe Rabell.

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever had any associations

with Cliff Childress (phonetic)?

The Witness

I don't think I know him. The

name is not familiar.

Mr. Triplett. How about Norman Diez (phonetic)?

The

Witness.

That name is not familiar.

Mr. Triplett. Now you already clarified your

response to the allegations of Marita Lorenz.

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The Witness. Yes.

Mr. Triplett. At any time, to your knowledge,

prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, dia

you ever have any contact with Lee Harvey Oswald or

have any knowledge of his attempting to contact you

or your organization?

The Witness.

Well, before the assassination

of the President of the United States -- this is

where the confusion comes

in because Jeiry Bucanhan

told me -- Jerry Bucanhan, how I met him was part

of the Jerry Patrick group of many Americans

and

Canadians that was in this area.

• T.

Mr. Triplett. The Jerry: Patrick group.

For

the

record, are you talking about the Interpen

organization?

annh

The

Witness.

well, the group before he had

Interpen.

There was a group of Americans that lived

Öff of 17th Avenue in some woman's house, a nice:

woman's house and so forth.

And Jerry Patrick was -- I mean rather, Jerry

Bucanhan was part of this group with the Masferer

people.

And Jerry Bucanhan seemed to be a real nice

kid.

He was a young kid. And I used to tell him,

L00k, Rolando Masferer is not the type of people

for you to be with because if this man ever goes to

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Cuba, you have the Cuban people that don't like him

and naturally they are not going to like you because

of his reputation under the Batista regime.

So this is how I got to meet Jerry Bucanhan:

Now I forgot what the question was.

Mr. Triplett. Whether or not there was any

approach to you or your organization by Lee Harvey

Oswald.

The Witness.

oh. So with his brother, Jim

Bucanhan being a newspaper man up there at the

Sun Sentinenallin Fort Lauderdale, Jerry spoke to

me one day and mentioned the fact, after the

assassination, he

mentioned the

fact to me, he says

well, he says there is a possibility that Oswald was

down here in this area trying to infiltrate the Cuban

exile groups here before the assassination. But there

was nothing definite.

Because I found out through

my own connections and so forth that Oswald was not

down in this area, at least that I knew of. That he

was not down in this area and

I that he tried to go

ahead and infiltrate our group and other Cuban groups.

There was a student directorate group that was

operating

here also and they have made statements to

the effect, and also to us, that there was a possibility

that Oswald -- now there might have been a communication

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gap there because they had their group also down

there in New Orleans, you know, and that Oswald

possibly would have been in this area here.

So this is where it came about that oswald was

possibly in this area trying to infiltrate the Cuban

exile groups:

MI. Triplett: Well, aside from the word that

was essentially just around that he might have been

in the area trying to infiltrate, do you know of

anybody that said yeah, I saw him trying to infiltrate,

ör saw him in the area?

The Witness®

well Jerry told me

that he thought

he had a fight with him.

MI. Triplett. Jerry Bucanhan?

The Witness.

Jerry Bucanhan.

Mr. Triplett.:: Or Jerry Patrick?

The Witness.

No. Jerry Bucanhan. That is

what he told me.

Mr. Triplett. Upon what did he base that?

The withessI don't know;

Maybe because of

the times and with the possibility of the information

going in the Cuban colony, that there was a possibility

that Oswald was in this area.

But we found out later

that it was not so.

Mr. Triplett:

And how did you find that out?

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The Witness. Through word of mouth.. Through

our people in the Cuban colony.

Not only that, the Federal Agents in this area.

You know, when the assassination occurred, you could

imagine, everybody in this area, from the local police

department to the Dade County Sheriff's Department,

to

every Federal Agency in this area here, was on

alert doing their own investigation into, you know,

this assassination. Doing their own private

investigation. And we could find nothing in this

area.

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And I think the CIA boys in this area at that

time were asked about Oswald being in this area and

so forth.

Because many of my friends again, for

instance line Salvadore Garcia, who worked

for the

Agency and who gave me certain documents to turn

over to the committees and so forth that tried to

show the link between oswald and Ruby, also -- like

say, there was no way to find out. No proof.

You

know, strong proof that Oswald was in the area.

Mr. Triplett.

Let me ask you, you know, I have

run through a lot of names and I have got a few more.

The Witness. Go ahead.

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever had any association

ever met David Moralez (phonetic)?

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The Witness. David Moralez? That sounds

familiar.' I don't recall off-hand. It

sounds

familiar.

Mr. Triplett. It is our understanding that he

also was known as Elino (phonetic). He was a Mexian

American.

The Witness. Like I say, it sounds very familiar.

There is a possibility. I'm not sure and I can't

put in my mind where I heard the name, or if I met

this person.

Mr. Triplett. All right.

How about a Giffrey Pinchot?

The Witness. Is that how you pronounce it?

How do you spell that last name?

Mr. Triplett. P-i-n-c-h-o-t.

The Witness.' p-i-n-c-h-o-t? I'm not sure.

I'm thinking again with Alex Roark introducing me

to somebody in New York that had some name that

started with a "p" on the end of that. And I'm not

sure of the phrasing of the name. An elderly man.

At that time he was an elderly man.

Mr. Triplett. Who was this person you were

introduced to in New York?

The Witness.

I'm not sure really who he was.

I, am not sure, really.

Mr. Triplett.

Well, was there a purpose for

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the introduction?

The

Witness. Not really

Because Alex

introduced me to a lot of people in New York. Not

a"lot, but a number of people in New York. Because

he wanted to introduce them

to me because of my

being a Rebel officer in Cuba.

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever met a Ricardo

Moralez?

The Witness.. I'm not sure of the name. I'm

not sure of it.

Mr. Triplett.

Ricardo Moralez. The nickname

would have been Elmono?

1t inch

The Witness.

'Elmono?. Oh, the monkey? Moralez

the monkey? I'm not sure. Believe me, I'm not sure.

But I know who he is. I think maybe I did meet the

monkey.

Moralez is the one who is in Venezuela. He

was the one that got in a fight with another friend,

not a friend, an acquaintence that I know by the name

of Mavaretti (phonetic). As a

matter of fact he

shot

Mavaretti: Mavaretti is in prison today.

Moralez is the guy that is in Cuba today. I

think he is Chief of Airport Security there. All the

Cubans know who he is.

Mr. Triplett. What, if any, association did you

have with him?

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The Witness.

I don't know really, if I had

any association with this man or not. I'll be

honest with you.

Because he has been involved in so

many things.

And again, you know, unless I'm close

with them, you know, if they're friends of mine.

Büt this man here, I may have run across him in the

past, met him in the past.

Mr. Triplett. Have you ever had occasion to

form a church?

The Witness. Yes. Right. Independent Church

of God.

Mr. Triplett. When was this?

The Witness. This was before Watergate. My

intentions

of this church, because of the nature of

me being with the special intelligence unit, I felt

that once I would be, you know, after these particular

operations, I

wanted, to go

ahead and raise funds and

put missions in certain Central American countries

ör South American countries

for the purpose of helping

the poor people in that area.

ButsI never. got around

to it because I went to jail and that flopped.

MI. Triplett. So the purpose of this church

was to raise money?

The Witness.

Yes. I would have to go ahead

and have a fund raising campaign. And I wanted Jim

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McCord to help me on that because of his contacts

in Washington.

MI. Triplett. Well, with respect to this church,

were you or any of your friends ever

ordained as

ministers?

The Witness.

well, the church charter had,

now do you say, it was formed where if you wanted to

ordain ministers, you can ordain ministers for the

purpose of, you know, doing exactly what I

said.

Mr. Triplett. Who chartered the church?

is *

The Witness. I did.

I formed the charter

and chartered it with Tallahassee. Anybody can do

that.

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Mr. Triplett. I understand that.

But was there any affiliation with any other

organization?

The Witness. No. Strictly on my own. Strictly

on my own.

It was my personal thing.

As a matter of fact, if I ever get in the

financial situation, I wish to formia new organization

to either do the same thing, if the money can

be

raised through professional advertising and professional

fünd raisers, to do the same thing. You know, helping

people having missions, to help people.

MI. Triplett. Now when I first asked you the

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question about the church you said because of my

relationship with the special intelligence unit.

What unit were you referring to?

119

The Witness. The unit that was formed by the

President of the United, States and the unit I belonged

to, and my other three companions. The so-called

Plumbers.

Mr. Triplett. Let's take a five minute break.

(A short recess was taken.)

Mr. Triplett: 'All right. Just a few more

questions and we'll be done, Mi. Sturgis.

Let me

throw one more name at you.

The Witness. All right.

MI. Triplett.. Do you know, or have you ever

met a Francisco Rodriguez Tomio (phonetic), his

nickname is El Mexicano?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

Mr. Triplett. When and where did you first

meet him?

The Witness.

I believe I met him probably one

time in Cuba and in exile here one time. And that's

about it.

MI.

Triplett. And what occurred, if anything,

at

those meetings.

The Witness.

Well, he was in a Cuban restaurant

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when I came by dressed in his Rebel uniform. He was

here in exile, with his beard and I ran across him,

and hi, and so forth. That's it. No conversation

That's it.

Mr. Triplett. Okay.

Who is Janet Mann?

The Witness.. My wife. Her name was Janet Hunt.

She married a Mann, divorced and naturally I married

her.

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Mr. Triplett. And who is Lora Norris?

The Witness. Who? Lora Norris?

Mr. Triplett. Yes?

The Witness.,

I believe you are talking about

my sister-in-law.

Mr. Triplett. I see.

The Witness. Who is the sister of my wife.

MI. Triplett. And did the three of you have

occasion to form a corporation at' some time?

73.

The Witness:

oh, yes. If I'm not mistaken

it was the church. I put them as officers of the

church.

MI. Triplett.

I see.:

So the three of you

formed the church, at least on paper?

Were either of them active at all in the

formation other than being incorporators?

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Mr. Triplett. I see.

Was this prior to your

märrying your wife Janet?.

The Witness. I don't know.

You will have to

check the dates really.

Mr. Triplett. Well, I think you said you have

been married for quite some time. When did you form

the church?

The Witness.

I förget.

No, I think I was

married at that time.

Mr. Triplett. Well, if I told you that on

the incorporation papers the name is Janet Mann rather

than Janet Sturgis?

The Witness.

well then, it had

to be before

I was married.

Mr.

Triplett.

All right. Let me get this

correct.

Lora Norris is Janet's sister?

The Witness: Yes.

Mr. Triplett. So the two sisters and yourself

incorporated the church before you married Janet?

The Witness...Yes.

MI. Triplett. Did you have any -- let me

change that a little:

Have you ever met or had any

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dealings with a General Biddle?

The Witness. No, sir.

Mr. Triplett. All right. I don't think I have

any further questions at this time. You have been

very helpful in answering the questions so far and

I know you have brought some information with you.

Rather than putting that into the record, I would

suggest, could you make it available to my.

investigators for copying and analysis for use in

our investigation?

And also it is customary when we have hearings

before the committee, at

the conclusion of the

questioning. of a witness, for the Chairman of the

Committee to tell the witness that he has five minutes

if he wishes, to make any statement on the record.

While this isn't a hearing, I think it is a

fair custom to follow and if you have any brief

statement you want incorporated into the record at

this time, feel free to state it.

The Witness.

No:

Satisfied with all the

questions.

I would like

to give copies to Mr. Gaeton Fonzi

OF MI. Al Gonzales

pertaining to this' information

which is about Marita Lorenz.

Mr. Triplett. Fine.

We appreciat it.

Thank

Said:

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yồu very much.

This record is now closed.

(Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m." the record was closed.)

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5

12

19.

20

22

23

2.4

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INS

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