Agency: HSCA
Originator: HSCA
From: BLAKEY, G. ROBERT
To: BRECKINRIDGE, SCOTT
Document date: 09/19/1978
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

180-10140-10381

JFK9

Fler 39

0.1. 3

ls: 5705985696600, CHOASTIAN

MA 5D7544

84.5.

DUNKS, CAlLi.

co::4.

ASHOLI D. DAVISED, MICH.

(202) 225-8929

L0683445

Belce Committee on assassinations

Ele. louse of siepresentaliurs

9331 HOUSE OFFICE DUILDING, ANNEX 2

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20515

September 19, 1978

Mr. Scott Breckinridge

Principal Coordinator/HSCA

Office of the legislative counsel

Central Intelligence Agency

Washington, D.C.

20505

Dear Mr. Breckinridge:

In connection with its investigation into the circum

surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy,

the Select Committee on

Assassinations requests that the enclosed

two pages of John McCone's testimony before this Committee and the

enclosed eleven pages of Barney Hidalgo's executive session testi-

mony. before this Committee both be declassified. Subject to the

Agency's doclassification of this material, it will be entered into

Committee's public hearings rocord on Tuesday, September 26,

Regarding public disclosure of MI. Hidalgo's name, please

note that the Committee does not intend to refer to or disclose

in any way Mr. Hidalgo's identity.

Since some of the information cited in this letter is derived

from classified information, consideration

should be given to as

signing this letter an appropriate classification indicator.

Thank you for your continued cooperation.

Sincerely,

S. Robes Blising

G. Robert Blakey

Chief Counsel and Director

Enclosures

GRB:

cmb

Girlier 109 1331 88?

19221

Hey', 1...

04261

CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO

DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR

RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT

AS SANITIZED

1801014010381

---

## Page 2

2

3

5

ó

5

?0

• li

iS

is

i7

13

20

21

22

A

Yes..

Was

he'an

agency employee?

xes.

Do you know where

he worked in 1963?

A

NO.

Did you know Ann Egerter?

A

No, not that I recall.

Imay have known here but I

not recall her.

Do you know whether she was an Agency employee?

I do not know.

Did you know Charlotte Bustos?

Not that I recall.

Do you know whether she was an Agency employee?

-No.

Do you know or did you know Maurice Bishop?

Yes.

Was he an agency employee?

A

I believe

SO.

I Do you know what his duties were in 1963?

A NO.

I Do you know whether any of these people worked at

headquarters in 1963 or worked in the field in 1963?

A

Well, they move back and forth and it is pretty hard

to tell just where they were in 1963, but the records will show

and you can get it from the Office of the present Director.

25

---

## Page 3

2.

3

5

6

8

9

il

12

13

.17

12

20

21

22

?3

24

==

... a

He will have records where they were, or the personnel depart-

ment.

Do you know what positions were held by these

people?

•No.

What positions they held--let me rephrase that

questions. Do you know the highest position that each of

these individuals held in the CIA?

A ÑO, I do not.

l. For instance, do you know whether Maurice Bishop

worked in the Western Hemisphere Division or whether he worked

in some other division of the CIA?

A I do not know.. I do not recall. I knew at that time,

but I do not recall..

I Do you know whether Maurice Bishop used any pseudo-

nyms.

No, I would not know that.

I Do you know whether the name, laurice Bishop, was in.

fact a pseudonym?

A

No, I do not know that.

Ckay. Did you know Ann Goodpasture?

A

NO.

Mr. McCone, I have no further questions at this point

It is the policy of the Committee to grant to the vitness at

the end of a deposition five minutes or free time to either

tandicinkie.lig

---

## Page 4

2

3

5

6

$

10

11

12

13

15

15

.17

13

19

20

21

22

24

25

MI. Goldsmith:

llow often have you had personal contact

mith Mi

Phillips

Mx. Hidal

Then?

MI. Goldsmith

Through the years.

Mr. Hidalgo. Through the yeas after he retired I called

nim, we belonged to the same

associacion. Ne are doch retrieo

and I talk to him frequently.

Me. Goldsrith

Was you relationship

ith him boch a

business relationship as well as a personal friendship rela-

tlonship?

Tix. Hidalgo. Yes.

Nore or actually friendship thar

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know an individual named Maurice

Bishop?

MI. Escala

Again Mi. Bishop was in the organization but

I had no personal day-to-day open relationship vith him..:

Phillips, yes; Bishop, no. I knew them both and Phillips I

knew.

I know Mx. Berk is over: there and i know Mr. Hardway is

over there but I have no relationships with them. Do you

follow me?

Ir. Goldsmith. Yes. I believe you indicated that vich)

Ar. Philllps your relationship vas both husiness and personall

Mx. Hidalgo, yes.

Mr. Goldemith. Now with Mi. Bishop • was this Mr. Mauric

BIshop?

---

## Page 5

3

5

6

8

10

11

12

13

1S

15

.17

12

19

20

21

22

?3

24

25

1o. 2404

i baline that dia

sexicely & business knoriedgs.

yeb

Nzo Goldumich. lo, Jong hap it been siace you bave be:

Mansice Bichop?

No. Layod

tess Chan tuice

or chroe Lines in the

ha

way somewhere.

Mi. Goldemish.

When was the last time that you saw hi.

Mr. Elderer!

It would have to balbafoce 1970 sonavier:

Mr. Golelsnith. Do you know what posicion, it any, he.

with the agency?

He held a position higher than nine buc

did not know, you know.

Mx. Goldomich, Did you ever have any personal contaci

with Mx. Bishop?

I don'¿ believe so. Il it was, it vas.

that impoxtani that ic vould impress itself upon me.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did he work in the Western Hemisphexe

Division?

six-Lidelyal I think so but ayain I annot suce of al.

the details.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know any ocher individuals who

were faniliar with Mr. Bishop who have known him?

Mr. Ledale,

I don't know. Perhaps Mix. LSwencon

perh

Dave Phillips.:

Mr. Coldomith.: Was Mit. Bishop's office located ai CIA

---

## Page 6

2

3

5

6

8

9

10

11

12

13

Pig

15

16

17

18

:9

20

21

22

*3

21

25

headguacters in denyloy?

& believe so.

Mr. Goldsmith, Do you recall mich floor hir orries vis

located on?

Mix. Falcon No, sir.

Mx. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Mr. Bishop ever went

My any other name?

Mr. Endanga, No, sir, I have no linorledge of acy of his

othet names.

Mi. Goldsmith. Would you nake your best effost, please,

to describe Mi. Bishop's fiscal description? What did he 100k

•like?

Mr. Madalga?

I could not even make a mental image of

vi. Bishop righc now.

Nx. Goldsmich. Approximately how old is he today?

I don't know. This must seem strange to

Mr. 22da:00.

you, it really must, I know but, you see - How can I say it?

The relationship of one agent to another is a thing that you

try your best not to -- not to know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mi. Bishop an administrator or a case

officer?

MI. Earlos

I would say his position was higher thar

mine.

A little honcho against a chief.

Mt. Goldsmith. Where did you generally see him on those

occasions when you dia see him?

1=5.

---

## Page 7

2

3

5

8

10

1!

12

13

15

17

13

29

21

22

*3

24

25

Mir. Eidi

•I imagina in the agency

Mir. Coldsnith. for example, in the hallyay, in the

cafeteria?

Mr. BEanier In the hallways or cafeteria.

i Nevar cori

tainly at my desk.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is your best recollection as to the

number of times that you saw him?

MI. Lidal40 A couple of times, two of three.

Mi. Goldsmith. When you saw this individual and you knew

that he was Maurice Bishop, how did you know that the gentlema

that you had in mind.was not that Maurice Bishop?

Mr. Edato

Someone night have said,

"That is Mauzice

Bishop," and it was different from Dava Philips or lal Swenso

guys that I know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know a man named Firgault?

Mr. Lidaigon

I don't think so.

Mr. Goldsmith. At this tina I would like to show you an

exhibit, I believe it is JFK Exhibit No. 104, and I vould likc

to ask you. to examine that and to tell the committee whether s

recognize that individual.

Mr. Hidalgal I don'i believe so, sir.

Mx. Goldsmith. Thank you. You can put that aside now.

Did you know an individual named Antonio Veciana Blanc?

Mr. Fealga, Now this nane sounds familiar to me in my

Cuban operation, I don't know where. It may have been with:

---

## Page 8

2

3

5

6

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

• 15

• 16

.17

18

19

20

22

*3

24

25

tit: brigade or

may have been an agent

literally hundreds i hundreds - of the Cubans.

an agent. if Jinaw

Mr. Goldsmith. Did MI. Bishop have any involvement in t

affairs of the brigade? By brigade I am not reicrring to the

Bay of pigs operation.

Mr daigo. I don't know if he did. ' I was not avare of

everyone.

He might very well have been involved in this thin

Mr. Goldsmich. Getting back to Mr. Bishop, when was the

first time you saw him to the best of your memory?

I would think about the early Sixties.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you ever formally introduced to him?

Mr. Eiderigo No.

Mx. Goldsmith. And from the time that you first saw him

in the early Sixties until the last time that you saw him,:

which I believe you said would have been about 1969 or 1970,

approximately how many tines did you actually see this man?

Mr. Hidalgo! It would not have been that late because ir.

late 1964 or early 1965 I left the Cuban operations and went t

another country of interest, so in those times, say 1950 to

1964, it might have been two or three times.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say in light of your last

comment that once you stopped working in Cuban operations, you

left that particular area, you no longer saw Mt. Bishop?

Mr. Elidaigo It I did, it would be just in the hallway

and I don't think so. I was now in another pait of the agency

---

## Page 9

2

3

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

IS

16

12

19

20

21

22

"3

21

25

...

huhing IDy trips fox that bare of the agency.

ME. Goldsmit

so by that, in otherw

that would

infer thac Me Bishop vorked in the area of Cuban aparations

No, not necessarily. He might have worked

there ate so many operations.

He mighs have

been transferred to somewhere elsa, I don'? know. You see;

where in the case of fal Swenson and Dava Phillips I concinuad

to seck them out and say, "How are you, Dave? How ate you

doing?" Go to lunch, play some poker. In the case of Bishop

this is noi so.

Hz. Goldsmith. Did you ever see Mi. Bishop at the lom

wave station?

Mr. Badaigo

No. In theM wave station you have to

understand that i was assigned to the EM wave scation but I

stayed away from the JM wavestation. It sounds peculiar.

was assigned there and yet I was not there. I was assigned

I

there shortly after i went there and met my own cover and did

my own operations. So when i did go to the l wavel station,

it was just a matter of just quickly in and get it ovex with.

Mr. Goldsmith, Did you ever see Mt. Bishop's picture in

the newspaper?

Mr. Bridalto

I may have, I don't recall, There was

time there arter early 1961 where you could have asked me to

Identify my children and I could not have done it. That is

winan I had my second stroke and that was when I leit JM wave.

porT scientist tur

---

## Page 10

3

9

10

11

12

13

1S

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

24

25

Mx. Goldsmill. But you are certain n

ertheless. that

during your stay at the agency on at least two or tea, ocea

;.

sions you saw an individual whom you knew to be Maurice Bishop:

Mr. Pictatgo, Whom someone tola me, "that is Mauzice

Bishop."

.. Mr. Goldsmith. Mr, Chairman, I have no turther questions

at this time.

I may have & few. follow-up questions., If the

committee has questions, I will yield at this time.

• MI. Preyer. All right.

MI. Fithlan.

Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Do you get any feel for whethet other people that you get

see just casually at the CIA are - I don't know how to pui

this - higher of lower on the pecking order?

MI.

idating

Pardon?

Mx. Fithian. Do you have a

feel for an individual that

you see casually over at the agency as to whether or not they

are higher up in the structure?

Mx. redatgo A feeling? =

Mr. Fithian: Yes.

Mr. Escahge] You mean when I was working at the agency

if I saw someone .

• Mx. Fithian. You didn't see them, you were not working

with them every day, you just see them from time to time, do:

FORB

PD

---

## Page 11

2

3

5

6

10

11

12

13

IS

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

25

you get a feel, whether by eating lunch of that they are doing

23

say.

to nether they are abova you in rani or equal or vatovar?

MI. Zurichga xes, I think I know what you are trying to

Essentially, yes, six.

Mr. Fithian. Do you have an impression that Biship

higher?

Mr. Ericalso] I vould say he was a higher grade than i wa

• MI. Fithian. Higher grade than you were?

Mr. Cidalga of course I was not a very high grade.

Mr. Fithian. That is the only question I had, Mr. Chair-

mail.

Mr. Preyer. Was your office in Langley in the CIA head-

quarters?

Mx. idolga

yes. At the time I was in headquarters.

That is where I went.

MI. Preyer. And Dava Phillips' offica was also there?

Mr. Escatga] Yes, six.

Mx. Preyer, And you would 9o out occasionally on mission

such as going down to Mexico?

MI. Hidalga

yes, six.

Mr. Preyer. But you would be working for the CIA in

washington and not for win Scott, the chief of the Mexican

station?

Bragon

That is correct, sir. When I went to

someone's area on an operation, they would be advised that.

sentencilind Yees

---

## Page 12

2

3

₴

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

there

13

19

20

21

22

*3

26

25

would be coming

Dio the country. Meeting

al then, no.

I need any contaci, it i got into trouble and needed something.

I mould alyays be able to call and they roula rocogrize the

fame and they would-assist-me if they-could.

• Preyer. You say you knew Dave Phillips well but you

didn't havenan operation relationship with him, you didn't wor

with hin on operations.

Mr. Fatain.

Thats is correct, sir

It is just, you knoi

two guys that met and happened to

Like eaca other.

MI. Preyer. Was his pirica

hear yours?

was on the same

f200x

MI. Preys

Was he higher in tank or lover in rank than

you?

Mr. Haargs, Higher, sir.

MI. Preyet. And :: Maurice Bishop's office was not on

the same floor as yours in Langley?

Mr. Liaiso I don't know. It was a very large floor

and there were many people on the floor that had nothing to:

do with what I had to do.

Mr. Preyer. Did Bishop have some relationship in his

appearance and age to Phillips?

Mx. (iaa290] Again I cannot recall Bishop's appaarance

at all.

Mx. Preyer. Do you recall more on the name when people

said, "That is Maurice Bishop"?

---

## Page 13

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

.17

13

19

20

22

24

25

Mc. EidatsoMaurice Mishop, right.

secretary or a icllow case officet of someone.

AS .

might have bean

Mr. Preyer. All right. Thank you.

Well, ict me just ask one other quescion. State nigit

answer this.

Who is AMMUG? Do we know him by any other name?

Mr. tidalgon xes, sir. At one time I could give you lis

name, etc. Right now I can only give you his first name.

ні

first name I believe was Vladimer and the name. I used confi

dentially was laddie.

Mr. Preyer.

Ila was a Cuban defector?

Mr. 11463770

Yes, sir.

Mr. Preyer. Who was connected wich Cuban intelligence?

Mr. Irdalgo, Yes, sir.

Mr. Goldsmith. : Mr. Chairmar,

I state for the record the:

committee does have this individual's true name but just for

sake of security we are not referring to it.

Mx. Pieyer. All right.

MI. stirdarayo.. I appreciate thai.

er.

Mr. Goldsmith

Thank you.

Mx. Preyex

Thank you. I have no further questions.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I have just a few more

questions if I may proceed. How much time do I have?

Mr,

• Preyer.

Mx. Fithian andI will have to leave you in

a couple of minutes hete. Will it take you more than a tew

minutes or so? We have got to go and vote.

---

## Page 14

10

12

13

14

15

15

. 17

1a

19

20

21

22

24

25

Mr. PIoyEte.

se committee will stand i

ten minutes.

(whereupon, at k:1l p.m..

the cormittee recessed until

4:24. p.m.)

Mr. Preyer. The committee will resume its session.

Mi. Goldsmith, •

Goldsmith. Thank you, Mc. Chairman. I will try to

brief.

Mr. Goldsmitis.

I have a few mose questions for you, Mr ltdalgo]

Do you know whether David Phillips Jinew Maurice Bishop?

Mr. Hidalgo! I don't know that. He may hava known him

but I don't know that.

Mr. Goldsmich. Is it possible that the name Maurice

Biship may have been an alias?

Mr. [lidalgo] Very possible.

Mx. Goldsmith. Why do you say that?

Mr. Hidalgo] Because others in the agency thought chat

they knew me by X name and they called me by that name when in

fact it was not.

Mr. Goldsmith. So the use of aliases even at agency

headquarters was not at all uncommon, is that true, to your

Knowledge?

Mr. Llidalgo.?

That is true.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you knot whacher Haurice-Bishes sias

---

## Page 15

. Ti

it

13

19

20

21

2?

=3

25

Do you know or did you know Maurice Bishop?

Yes.

Was he an agency employee?

I believe so.

Do you know what his duties were in 1963?

A

No.

I. Do you know whether any of these people worked at

headquarters in 1963 or worked in the field in 1963?.

A

well, they move back and forth and it is pretty hard

to tell just where they were in 1963, but the records will shoi

and you can get it from the office of the present Director.

---

## Page 16

2

3

6

10

il

12

13

15

16

.17

18

19

20

21

22

24

25

He will have records where they were, or the personnel derart-

nent.

Do you know what positions were held by these

people?

A • No.

2. What positions they held--let me rephrase that

questions. Do you know the highest position that each o

these individuals held in the CIA?

A No, I do not.

I. For instance, do you know whether Maurice Bishop

worked in the Western Henisphere Division or whether he worked

in some other division of the CIA?

A I do not know:. I do not recall. I knew at that time

but I do not recall. .

Do you know whether Maurice Bishop used any pseudo-

nyms.

No, I would not know that.

I. Do you know whether the

name, Maurice Bishop, was in

fact a pseudonym?

A

No, I do not know that.

---

## Page 17

10

. 11

12

13

15

15

17

19

20

21

22

24

25

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know an Individual named Maurice

Bishop?

Mr.

Again Mi. Bishop was in the organization bui

I had no personal day-to-day open relationship with him...

Phillips, yes; Bishop, no. I knew them both and Phillips I

knew. I know Mt. Beck is over there and I know Mi. Hardway is

over there but I have no relationships with them. Do you

follow me?

Mr. Goldsmith. Now with Mt. Bishop -i was this Mr. Mauri.

Bishop?

---

## Page 18

2

3

5

8

10

17

12

13

15

16

.17

12

19

20

21

22

?3

24

25

Six.

i balieve that woo tha

nane, yes. Hid yas

stricily a business inowiengs.

Mr. Goldsmith. How long has it been since you have been

Mautice Bishop?

ME.

Less than itwice or chice times in the hall

way somewnere.

Ms. Golasmith. When was the last tima that you saw hin?

Mr.

It would have to betbafore 1970 somewhere.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what position, if any, he held!

with the agency?

MiX:

He held a position higher than mine but I

did not know, you know.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have any personal contaci

with Mr. Bishoo?

I don't believe so. If it was, it was. not

that impoxtant that it would impress itself upon me.

• Mx. Goldsmith. Did he work in the Western Hemisphere

Division?

MI.

I think so but again I an not sure of all

the details.

Mr. Goldsmith, Do you know any other individuals who

were familiar with Mr. Bishop who have known him?

MI.

I don't know. Perhaps Mt.

perhaps

Dave Phillips.'

Mr. Goldsmith:: Was MI. Bishop's office located at CIA

---

## Page 19

2

3

5

6

8

9

10

• 11

12

13

15

16

17

20

21

22

=3

24

headquactors in banyley?

Fix.

i believe 50.

rix. Goldsmich. Do you recall wich floor his office tas

located on?

No, SIT.

Mx. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Mr. Bishop ever went

•by any other name?

Mt.

No, six, I have no krovledge of ary of his

other names.

Mx. Goldsmith. Would you make you, vest effort, please,

to describe Mi. Bishop's fiscal description?. What did he 100k

like?

Mx -

I could not even make a mental image of

Na. Bishop right now.

Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately how old is he coday?

I don't know. This musc seem strange to

you, it really must, t know but, you see How can I say it?

The relationship of one agent to another is a thing that you

try your best not to - not to know.

Mr. Goldsmith.

Was Mt, Bishop an administrator oz a Case

officer?

I would say his position was higher than

mine. A little honcho against a chief.

Mt. Goldsmith. Where did you generally see him on those

occasions when you did see him?

---

## Page 20

2

3

5

6

10

11

12

13

1.0

15

15

17

.13

29

21

22

"*3

21

25

ME.

I inagina in tha s

Mr. Coldsmith. for erample, in the hally, in the

cafeteria?

Mx.

In the hallways of cafeteria.

• Nevar cer

tainly at my desk.

lix. Goldsnith. What is your best recollection as to the

number of times that you saw him?

MI.

• A couple of times, two of three.

Mi. Goldsnith. When you saw this individual and you knew

that he was Maurice Bishop, how did you know that the gentlema:

that you had in mind was not that Maurice Bishop?

• MI.

Someone might have said, "That is Maucice

Bishop," and it was different from Dava Phillips oz

guys that I know.

M. Goldomith.. Did you know a man named Firgault:

Mr.

* I don't think so.

Mr. Goldsmith.. At this time I would like to show you an

exhibit, I believe it is JrK Exhibit No: 104, and I vould like

to ask you. to examine that and to tell the committee whether s

recognize that individual.

Mr.

• I don'i believe so, sir.

Mt. Goldsmith. Thank you. You can put that aside now.

Did you know an individual named Antonio Veciana Blanc?

Mr.

• Now this name sounds familiar to me in my

Cuban operation, I don't know where. It may have been with

---

## Page 21

2

3

5

6

8

9

10

. 11

12

13

• 15

16

.17

18

19

20

21

22

24

25

tire brigade

or he may have been an cy

at of an ajent. ; I linew

literally hundreds - hundreds - of tie Cubans.

MI. Goldsmith. Did Mr. Bishop have any involvement in t

affairs of the brigade? By brigade I am not referring to the

Bay of pigs operation.

MI.

I don't know if he did.: I was not aware

evexyone. He might very well have been involved in this thin:

Mr. Goldsmith. Getting back to Mt. Bishop, when was the

first time you saw him to the best of your memory?

Mr.

I would think about the early Sixties.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were you ever formally introduced to him:

ME.

NO.

Mr. Goldsmith. And from the time that you firsc saw him

in the early Sixties until the last time that you saw him,

which I believe you said would have baen about 1969 ox 1970,

approximately how many times did you actually see this man?

Mr.

.. It would not have been that late because ir

Late 1964 or early 1965 I left the Cuban operations and want t

another country of interest, so in those times, say 1250 to

1964, it might have been two or three times.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say in light of your last

comnent that once you stopped working in Cuban operations, you

left that particular area, you no longer saw Mi. Bishop?

MI.

If I did, it would be just in the hallway

and I don't think so. I was now in another pait of the agency

---

## Page 22

...

:

2

3

5.

ó

8

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

13

19

20

2]

22

21

25

Liking IDy trips for that part of the agency.

Me, Goldsmith, So by thac, in oches vords that vorld

infer that Me: Bishop vorked in ina aren of Cuban opaticion?

Mr.

No, not necessarily. ue night have vorked

in so you know, there ate so many operations.

He mighs have

been transferred to somewharo else, & don'? Junior. You sea;

where in the case of

and Dava Phillips I continued

to seck them out and say, "How are you, dave? How are you

doing?" Go to lunch, play some poket. In the case of bishop

this is not so.

Mi. Coldsmith. Did you ever see Me. Dishop at che

station?

Mx.

No. In the

understand that I was assigned to the

station you have to

scation but I

stayed away from the -

station. It sounds peculiar.

was-assigned there and yet I was not there. I was assigned

I

there shortly after I went there and met my own cover and did

my oim operations, So when I did go to the

station,

it was just a matter of just quickly in and gat it over with.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever see Mi. Bishop's picture in

the newspaper?

MX.:

• I may have, I don't recall, There was a

time there after early 1961 where you could have asked me. to

Identify my children and I could not have done it. That is

sinEn I had my second stroke and that was when i leit

---

## Page 23

3

4

5

6

₴

9

10

11

12

13

• 14

• 15

16

.17

18.

19

20

27

22

?3

24

25

I was evacuated actually out.

Mix. Go

smith. But you are certa

nevertheless that

during your stay at the agency on at loast two or thice occa-

sions you saw an individual whom you knew to be Maurice Bishop:

MI.

Whom someone told me, "That is Maurice

Bishop."

•. Mr. Goldsmith. Mx. Chairnan, I have no further questions

at this time. I may have a few, follow-up questions. If the

cormittee has questions, I will yield at this time.

MI. Preyer. All right.

Mt. Fithian.

Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Do you get any feel for whether other people that you get

to see just casually at the CIA are - I don't know how to put

this -- higher or lower on the pecking order?

Mt.

Pardon?

• Mx. Fithian. Do you have a feel for an individual that

you see casually over at the agency as to whether or not they

are higher up in the structure?

MI.

A feeling? =

Mr. Fithian. Xes.

MI.

You mean when I was working at the agency

if I saw someone

Mt. Fithian. You didn't see them, you were not working

with them every day, you just see them from time to time, do

---

## Page 24

2

3

5

10

11

12

13

1$

16

.17

20

21

22

you set a fcel, whether by rating luach or that they are doing

as to whether they are above you in tank or equal or wateres?

MI.

Yes, I think i know what you are trying to

say. Essentially, yes, sir.

Mr. Fithian.. Do you have an impression that Bichip

WaS

higher?

MI.

I would say he was a higher grade than I wa

•Mr. Fithian. Higher grade than you vere?

MI:

Of course I was not a very high grade.

Mr. rithian. That is the only question I had, Mt. Chair-

inars.

Mr. Preyer. Was your office in tangley in the CIA head-

quarters?

MI.

• Yes. At the time I was in headquarters.

That is where I went.

MI. Preyer. And Dave Phillips' office was also there?

MI.:

yes, six.

---

## Page 25

10

11

12

13

15

16

17

13

19

20

21

22

33

25

Mr. Preyer.

And i: Maurice Bishop's office was not on

the same floor as yours in langley?

Mt.

I don't know.

It was a very large floor

and there were many people on the floor that had nothing to

do with what I had to do.

Mr. Pteyer. Did Bishop have some relationship in his

appearance and age to Phillips?

MI.

Again I cannot recall Bishop's appearance

at all.

Mr. Preyer. Do you recall more on the name when people

said, "That is Maurice Bishop"?

---

## Page 26

salt

3

Me -

Maurice Rishop, rive

sacretasy or a fcllow case officer or someons..

BI. Preyer. All right. Thank you.

1.0.

He might jave boun

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

.17

18

19

20

2

22

*3

26

25

---

## Page 27

3

5

6

8

10

12

13

14

15

15

.17

18

19

29

21

22

24

Mk. Goldsmith.

I have a few more questions for you, Me.

Do you know whether David Phillips Knew Maurica Bisho

I don'" know that. He may have known h

Mx.-

but I don't know that.

Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the nana Maurice

Biship may have been an alias?

MI.

Very possible.

Mx. Goldsmith. Why do you say that?

• Because others in the agency thought th

they knew me by X name and they called me by that name whe

fact it was not.

Mr. Goldsmith. So the use af aliases even at agency

headquarters was not at all unconnon, is that true, to you

knowledge?

Mx.

That is true.

---