MEMORANDUM:INTERVIEW BY SENATE COMMITTEE INVESTIGATORS
Originator: CIA
From: FORD,CHARLES D. OTR
To: THE RECORD
Document date: 09/19/1975
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

1104-10310-10119

2022 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

(4)

INTERVIEW FORM

FORD, Charles

NAME:

ALIAS

OTR

OFFICE

OFFICE APPROVAL

DATE OF INTERVIEW

LOCATION OF INTERVIEW.

Signature

18 Sept 75

•."

Carrol Arms

TRANSPORTATION REQUIRED:

YES

FROM HEADQUARTERS

TELEPHONE

Date

TIME 120-1315

NO

(time)

OTHER

INTERVIEWED BY:

Postal, Gordon Rhea, Rhett Dawson,

Fred Baron, Robert Kelly.

SUBJECT:

Cuban Operations - 'Task Force W

Assässination of Castro - Mafia connections.

COMMENTS:

Under oath. This was second meeting.

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD:

Attached.

---

## Page 2

13-00000

Interview by Senate Committee Investigators

Director of Training

1°28 c

3245

DDTR

DTR

Chlef, Division D

YB-44 Has.

Assistant to the Director

6D-15 Has.

19 September 1975

ShEP

marge.

no fil

UcT

3 17 PM '75

---

## Page 3

13-00000

CUNHDENTIAL.

• 10 Sopteaber 1975

FLE RANDOM FOR THE RECORD

SUBJECT: Intervier by Senate Cormittee Investigators

1. On Thursday, 18 September 1975, I was interviewed for the second

tinse by investigators from the Senate Comittee.

The interview lasted fron

approximately 11:20 a.m. until 1:15 p.m. My testimony was recorued and will

be transcribed.

When the transcription is ready I will be required to rcad

it and swear to the truthfulness of the statcients I made. Under ordinary

circunstances, a Senator would have been present to scar me in at this in-

terview. nonever, because of the televised public hearings, no senators were

available. An unidentified wonan operated the equipment which consistor of a

Sony casette recorder ali dictanhone casette recorder.

The prinary questioning

was by Mr. Postal and fir. Gordon Rhes, the same investigators with whom I spoke

on the earlier occassion. At one point or another during the prosecdings three

other men joined us for various perious of timo.

NI. Rhott Dawson appeared

shortly after the interview began and remained for about an hour. dir. Fred

Behren (I can't vouch for the spelling) arrived after about half an hour and

renaina for approximately twenty minutes, having received a phone call which

took him away.

Mr. bob xelly arrived shortly after Mr. Behren and stayed for

about 10 minutes longer than Mr. Behren.

The intervict was conducted in a room

in tho Carroll Arus a fomer hotel across the street from the Senate Office

Building.

...Ti an

2. The meeting began with a reminder that I could have an attorney present

and that I could refuse to answer any question which might tend to incriminate

I was asked to describe in general tems my work with CIA. I told thea

that I joined in 1949; that I was and an now a nember of the Office of Training;

that in 1960 or thereabouts I had a short tour of duty with the Economic Action

Group in the DDP, and that I went directly fron that assigment to Mv4 in

Septenber of 1961.

3.

I was asked to recall ny major activities while with the Cuban operation

and I did so. I reported that my first assigment was the handling of a Cuban

agent, one we were using to build a nucleus of an organization for eventual

oporations into Cuba.

I identified tus msn as Ir. Rojas (it. Rhea, having

heard ay description of this activity at our earlier session, did not pursue

this matter any further).

CONROEITA!

---

## Page 4

13-00000

- CONFIDENTIAI

4. The investigators were interested in when I was assignod the code

nave Fiscalini; tho circumstances. under which the name was assignod, and who

had assigned it. I tolithem I had scon a Xerox copy of the memorandun (I

saw this during a neeting with ill Sturbits last Friday in Bili's office)

which requested that identification in the nure of Fiscalini be assigned to me.

I explained the circunstances, which "ir. Postal and Mr. Rnea had heard at our

earlier meeting, and said that I thought the date was the end of larch, 1962.

The ciramstances involved a contact by a New York lawyer, thru the L'epartment

• of Justice, concerning a client who had access to Cuba and wanted to visit

Castro to put in a special ploa on behalf of the Bay of figs prisonors.

identifiod the individual concerned (I still can't remember his name) as the

manager of the Toresa Hotel in Now York.

I did not identify the lawyer and

was not asked for his nane. I identified & nan I met at a second mecting in

New York as "Bubbles" Abdallah. I explained that the latter individual pro-

posed to accompany the manager of the leresa to cuba, the manager being an

elderly gentlanan with sone difficulty in walking.

I explained to the investi-

gators that I had no further contacts with these people after I discovered that

Abdallah was wanted, or under indictnent - I forget which - by Texas authorities

for smuggling drugs

fran Mexico. Mr. Robert Kelly was clearly interosted in

pursuing the matter of who assigned my "Code Nane." I indicated that the docu-

mentation that I received came fron the Office of Security but that I did not

know whether that Office sclected the nano of not.

5. He went over again the story of my contact with a Canadian named "Joe"

(I know this man's last name but have not been asked for it and have not volun-

teered it). I described one meeting and a telephone call involving Joe. In the

meoting ho clained that he could travel back and forth from Canada to Cuba; revealed

to me that he was interested in starting a suuggling activity involving zoods

on the proscribed list; that he wanted United States citizenship and & great

deal of money in exchange for allowing us to send naterials or tamper with sone

of the shiments if we could get the proscribed goods to Canada.

I explained to

the investigators that my interest lay in the fact that Joe clained he could

speak with Che Guevara and that I had attempted to get Joo to serve as a neans

of commication between us and Che, which Joe refused to do. As for the tele-

phone call, I told them that when Joe returned fron his trip to Cuba he called

to say that big things were going on in Cuba and we should meet right away.

Being aware that at that point we in the Agency were deep into what would later

be called the Cuban Missile Crists, I told Joe I could not see him and that we

probably already knew what he had to tell me. That was the last I heard of Joe.

6. He sperit a great deal of time going over uy meetings with the Attorney

General and his interest in a small group of Cubans who clainod to have supporters

In cuba realy to create an uprising in santiago Province. Tus is tho caso de-

scribed in paragraph 3 of my earlier nemorandum. The investigators were quite

interested in the identity of the man wios I saw at the request of the attorney

General.

I went over this again in as such detail'ns I could reneuber but with-

out being able to recall who this man was. I was askod if I could describe the

CONFIDENTIAL

---

## Page 5

13-00000

• CUNHIDENIAL

man anil I said that I recalled him as a fairly tall man of average build with

black hair, black cyebrows and glasses. Ci considerable interest is the fact

that peria;s 15 to 20 minutes later I was shown an 3 X 10 glossy plotograph of

several people walking in front of what appeared to le a public building and

or. asked whether I could lientify amy of the people in the picture. I cold

ir. Postal pointed to tho central figure and aslied if I could identify him.

I said I could rot. (The picture was of a man probably in his mid-sixtics with

floring white hair - songwhat on the order of Senator keating - a large down.-

curving nose, whito, straight eye brows behind dark glasses, a soncwhat lined,

puffy face, and a slightly receding forchead accentuated by the fact that his

hair was combed straight fron front to back. The man was wearing a dark blue

or black suit, and one man appeared to be accompanying him to his lett and

slightly ahead, and another man slightly to his right and rear. Without hav

ing any reference points by which to juugc, my best guess would be tiat the

subject was about 5'10" tall. lie appeared to be rather heavy, perhaps in the

range of 220 pounds.

There sconed to be a caption of some sort at the bottom

of the picture but this was hidden from my view.) Mr. Postal asked whether

the main figure in the photosraph could have been the man the Attorney General

directod me to sec. I replied that, even allowing for the difference in years,

the man in the photograph in no wajurescabled the man I saw on behalf of the

Attorney General.

Nessts. Postal and Rhea again brought up the subject of assassination

and asked whether I had engaged in or had heard mention of, in Task Force W

or SAs, discussions on the subject of assassination either in gencral or

specifically with respect to Castro. I told the investigators that the subject

came up repeatedly when we were speaking with Cubans, many of whom, having been

forced to flee Cuba, sincerely wished for Castro's innediate demise.

I said

that I had never heard of or engaged in conversations with Agency officors about

any plan the direct and only aspect of which was the assassination of Fidel

Castro. I pointed out that on a rumber of occasions I dealt with Cubans who

wantod to kill Castro, but that iy job was simply to attempt to extract fro

these contacts the names of people in Cuba who might be of potential use to s

in intelligence operations.

I said that I had never engaged in plotting with

Cubans regarling assassination but that I had many conversations with Cibans

regarding their desiro to conduct paranilitary ac tivities which, as a by-projuct,

night well result in Castro's death. I pointed out emphatically that the Agency's

policy prolibits political assassination.

8. I was asked if I knew Bill Wainkright) and Nestor Sanchez. I told then

that I knew then both and that Nestor and I shared an office for a short period

near the end of my attachment with SAS. I was asked if "ASIASH"' meant anything

to me and I roplied in tho nogative.

This was followed by whether Bill and

Nestor had discussed with me or mentioned an operation of theirs involving a

high level officer of the Cuban goverment, a nilitary nan who made frequent

trips out of cuua. Again 1 could only roply in the negative. I added the

juxtaposition of Bill and Nestor in the context of a single operation surprised

CONFIDENTIAl

---

## Page 6

13-00000

CONFIDENTIAL

ne jiasmuch as I holioved Nestor to have been involved only in psychological

operations and (RalD working at collecting foreign intelligence.

I was then

asked if the word "NOTS" acant anything to me and I said it did but that all

I could say was that it had to do with counterintelligence activities. M.

Rhea asked me wether I could say that the "1:0IS" activity was concerned with

coitncting Cuban exiles in the Miuni area and I indicated that this was my

wulerstanding. The subject was not pursued further.

9.

I was astied about my visit to New Orleans (which I had mentioned during

the previous session) and I explained that these two trips were for the purpose

of attcapting to find ways of establishing chamels of commication between the

exile! Cubans in New Orleans und their friends in Cuba. I indicated that I hau

been able to come un with a very fine prospect, a Cuban, and that I haul turnou

him over to one of our FI Case Officers.

I also said that I had several dis-

cussiorswith an inerican wiom I doclined to identify under the general grounc

rule relating to sources of information. liessrs.

Postal and Rhea asked if I

would respond affimatively if they were to suggest sone initials which night

correspond to the nane of my American contact. I agreed to do this but the

initials which they mentioned neant nothing.

(Unfortunately, I cannot recall

I volunteered the initials of my contact, "FJ", and this produced a blank

expression on the part of both investigators and a shrug of it. Rhea's shoulders.

The final question

I was asked was whether I had any knowledge of the "Ponchar-

train Operation'.

I told then that I knew where Lake Ponchartrain was, and

thnt's as far as it went.

10.

We spont a little tine on the subject of Ceneral Landsdale. I ad-

mitied I had attended one mecting in Gencral Landsdalo's office in the Pentagon.

I was assed whether anyone else was there and said that I could recall only one

nanie, cornelius Roosevelt, but that there were two other people at the useting.

In response to a series of questions about what was discussed at that meeting,

I said that Goneral Landsuale was intorested in various paranilitary possibilities

and that my role was linited to giving a quick assessment of whether we had the

agent assots to assist in carrying out the various possible operations that

General Liaisdalo suggested.

11. I was asked whether the tenn "Mongoose" meant anything to me and I

indicatol that it was a general tern used to refer to a composite of planned

operational activitics.

I said that I had no knowledye of any specific activity

boing planned under this nane and further explained that it as possible that

some of my Cuban contacts might have been taken over by other Case Officers for

uso under "Mongoose" but that I had no direct linowledge of such having been done.

12. Mr. Robert Kelly expressed considerable interest in the organization of

Task force N. At one point he asked how liny echclons there were betwcen me and

Mr. Helios.

I told them that I reported to Bill Harvey; that my title was Special

Assistant; that vir. Harvey reported to it. liens; that I froquently received

CONFIDENTIAI -

---

## Page 7

13-00000

CONFIDENTIAl:

assigment and reported to San lalpem; and that occasionally I undertook

tasts for truce Cheever, Harvey's deputy, although these tasks were concerned

with the korkings of lask force h and did not involve contact with the Cubans.

I was asked if there kere any Special Assistant other tian me in Task Force W

and I replicd that it. Logby, C/ul/4 prior to lit. Harvey's arrival on tho scene,

had been retained as a menber of Task Force Win an SA status. I said that

tlicre way well nave been otiers bocause people would show up

• Iron time to tino for

short tours of duty for several conths or so and then depart to carry on

their work elsewhere, but that I could not recall anyone by name at the present

time.

13. I was asked whether I used the nare Fiscalini in circunstances other

than those described.

I said that I frequently carricd identification in

that nave and used it on several occasions. I described one occasion which was

an amusing one-time contact with no bearing on any iten of interest to the commit-

tCC.

The investigator askod whether I had ever contacted Cubans in Miani anú I

replied in the negative.

14.

I was asked if I had ever made contacts with people in New York City

other than those described.

I said that indeed I had but that in one case, al-

though the man in question lived in er York, the nceting took place in Newark,

New Jersey.

In response to a question I said that the lead was provided by the

FBI.

I declined to identify the man involved on the grounds of the sensitivity

ot nis position at that time and the tact that 1 do not know at present miere he

is or what he is doing. (Wiis was the beginning of the unsuccessful tao opera-

tion which should be recoried santhere in the Task Force W or Miami Station

files.)

15. I was asked whether I had any Inoiledge of a neeting of the Attorney

General and Cuban exile leaders in the sumer of 1962.

I said that such a

neeting would not lave been unusual, in my opinion, but that 1 id no knowleüge

ot. such a nesting. I pointed out that it was comson practice among nany Cuban

leaders to try to acquire the support, or at least the appearance of sumport, of

U.S. agencies and prominent U.S. political figures. I further stated that

numerous attempts vera nade to get the U.S. to support a Cuban governnent-in-

• exile and that I had had one neeting in hashington with a Cuban leader who was

constantly atompting to get us to support him as head of such an arrangenent.

I identifieu tis ran as Mario Garcia-kohly and aulei that he was sentenced to

prison some years later for counterfeiting Cuban pesos.

The name "kohly" ob-

viously rang a bell with MI. Postal as he repeated it aloud in a surprised tore

of voice, ¡onever, iiI. Postal did not pursue the matter.

16. Soie of the other topics which were surfaced in cornection with the

above major items: I was askod whether I lnow the following people or recognized

the names.

Gy responses are sumarized in the parentheses and I can't vouch for

all the spellings):

CONFIDENTIAL

---

## Page 8

13-00000

* CONFIDENTIAl

(1)

(2)

(3)

(4)

(5)

(6)

(7)

Carlos Teppedino (never heard of him)

Jose Orta (never heard of him)

Sam Giancana (read about him in newspaper; never met him)

Poselli (rcad about hin in the newspaper; never met him)

Trafficante (read about him in newspaper; never met him)

Manuel Artime (a prominent member of Cuban brigade; never met him)

Big Jim O'Connell (heard about him in the newspaper; never met him)

I was asked whether "No Name Key"meant anything to me and

I gave a negative response.

I was asked if I had visited Chicago in the course of my work

and I told them I had not.

17. This is probably the appropriate point to underline my conviction that the

main, if not the only, point of concern to the investigators is whether 1 was

directed to sally forth and initiate contact with members of the underwordd in

the U.S. and who directed me to do so. Their interest is even more pointedly

focussed on whether I had anything to do with the Rosselli, Giancana, et al,

"operations".

Once again, I explained that my job was broader thanithis by a

long shot,

and that I was never directed to take the initiative in establishing

contacts with the underworld. I said that several, probably no more than five

or six, of the people with whom I dealt were somewhat "shady" characters, in

some cases with recorded run-ins with law enforcement agencies.

Charles D. Ford

Chief, Training Services Staff, OTR

CONFIDENTIAL

---