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From: PHILLIPS, DAVID ATLEE
Document date: 11/27/1976
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

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11/27/1976

135

CIA, METHODOLOGY

PHILLIPS, DAVID A., TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE

OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO

MEXICO

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS: 1A; 1B

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW:

01/01/2003

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS :

Box 5

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

U.S. House of Representatives

Select Committee on Assassinations,

Subcommittee on the Assassination

John F. Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF :

MI. David A. Phillips

Washington, D. C.

November 27, 1976

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EXHIBITS:

Phillips Exhibit No. 1

Phillips Exhibit No.

2

Phillips Exhibit No. 3

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WARD/ smnd

EXECUTIVE SESSION

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SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 1976

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House of Representatives,

Select Committee

On

Assassinations

Subcommittee on the Assassi-

nation of John F. Kennedy

Washington, D. C.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:14

o'clock a.m., in Room 3342, House Annex No. 2, 2nd and D

Streets, N.W., Washington, D. C., the Honorable Richardson

Preyer (Chairman of the

subcommittee presiding.

Present: Representatives Preyer (presiding) and Thone.

Also present: Richard A. Sprague, Chief Counsel and

Director; Kenneth Brooten, Counsel; Donovan L. Gay, Chief

Researcher; Richard Feeney, Jonathan Blackner, Jeremy Akers,

Linda Conners, Jackie Hess and Robert Ozer, Committee Staff.

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Mx. Preyer. The Subcommittee on the Kennedy Assassination

of the House Select Committee on Assassinations will come to

order.

Congressman Thone and myself, Congressman Preyer, we have

a quorum that satisfies the rules to take testimony.

This session will be an executive session; it will be a

closed session. The Chair notes that Mr. Thone disagrees with

executive sessions in principle and the court respects his

opinions on those. Chairman Downing, however, has requested

that this be a closed session, and therefore the Chair

declares this session closed.

The purpose of this session is to receive the testimony

of Mr. David Phillips, and Mr. Sprague, if

there are no other

preliminary matters, I will swear the Witness at this time.

Mr. Sprague. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Preyer. Mr. Phillips, would you put your left hand

on the Bible and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to

give before the House Select Committee on Assassinations will

be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so

help you God?

Mr.. Phillips. I do.

MI. Preyer. Thank you, sir.

If you will have your seat, and MI. Sprague, I will turn

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the questioning over to you.

MI. Sprague. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Will you state your full name.

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TESTIMONY OF DAVID APPLEY PHILLIPS

Mr. Phillips. David Appley Phillips.

Mr. Sprague. And your present address.

MI. Phillips. 8224 Stonetraile Drive, Bethesda,

Maryland, 20034.

Mr. Sprague. Mr. Phillips, you understand that the laws

of perjury will encompass

all testimony given by you under

oath at this hearing.

Mr. Phillips. I do, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Have you ever been a member of the

Central Intelligence Agency?

Mr. Phillips. I have, sir.

MI. Sprague. And when did you commence as an agent of

that Agency?

Mr. Phillips. In 1950.

Mr. Sprague.

And how long did you remain an agent of

the CIA?

Nr. Phillips. Twenty-five years.

Mr. Sprague. And your departure, was that a retirement?

MI. Phillips. I retired in May of 1975, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Now, during the period of time that you

were an agent for the CIA, were you at any time assigned to

work on their behalf in Mexico?

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Mr. Phillips. I was, sir.

Mr. Sprague.

And what year did you commence working in

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Mexico?

Mr. Phillips. The assignment was in September of

1961. I arrived in September or early August, as I recall.

Mr. Sprague. And how long did you remain on assignment

with the CIA in Mexico?

Mr. Phillips. Until early 1965.

Mx. Sprague. Now, commencing with your assignment in

1961 by the CIA to Mexico, what were your initial duties?

Mr. Phillips. During the first part of that four years,

roughly, my job was that which involves propaganda and that

sort of business.

Mr. Sprague. Could you explain what you mean by that?

Mr. Phillips. Mexico City has: the Cuban embassy there

which was active during the 1960s in attempting to assist

Fidel Castro in exporting his ideas of revolution in Latin

America, and it was the U.S. Government's policy and CIA's

practice to counter that when they could. That was largely

the extent of that.

Mr. Sprague. When you say counter that, what were the

nature of the things that you did to counter it?

Mr. Phillips. By arranging, assisting journalists, for

instance, to write the right kind of things about the United

States, supporting groups who were in effect groups which

might -- which were anti-Castro.

MI. Sprague. Did any of that support involve those

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groups committing acts of violence against the Castro regime?

Mr. Phillips. They did not, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Now, how long did you remain with this kind

of duty that you have just described?

Mr. Phillips. Roughly two years, until about mid-1973.

Mr. Sprague.

'63.

Mr. Phillips. I'm sorry, sir, '63.

Mr. Sprague.

When you say approximately mid-1963, to the

best of your recollection, what months are you talking about?

Mr. Phillips. I believe it was July or August. I'm

not absolutely positive about that.

Mr. Sprague. Now, at that time you were given a different

assignment?

Mr. Phillips. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And what was the nature of the new assign-

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Mr. Phillips. I was asked to take over what were known

as the Cuban operations of Mexico City Station.

MI. Sprague. Now, how long did you remain in charge

of the Cuban operation in the Mexican Station of the CIa?

Mr. Phillips. Until my departure in early 1965.

Mr. Sprague. Now, when you say you were asked in mid-1963

to take over the Cuban operation, who was it that made that

assignment of you?

Mr. Phillips. A CIA officer who had recently been appointed

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as the Chief of CIA Operations based with his headquarters in

Washington, visited Mexico City, spoke to the Station Chief in

Mexico, recommended that I be changed to the new job.

Mr. Sprague. And who was that?

Mr. Phillips. His name was Desmond FitzGerald, the

Chief of Station was Win Scott.

Mr. Sprague. And would you explain what the nature of the

new assignment was which, as I take it, then had -- you then

had for the remainder of your tour in Mexico.

Mr. Phillips. It was to know what the Cubans were doing

in Mexico City, specifically in their embassy, to try to

obtain as much information as possible about their intentions

in Mexico and Latin America, specifically, to know what was

going on in and around the Cuban Embassy.

Mr. Sprague. Now, where was the Cuban embassy located?

Mr. Phillips. I believe I recall the name of the street

as Calle Insurgantes, which was several blocks off of the

main street in Mexico City.

Mr. Sprague. And what was its proximity to the Russian

embassy?

Ms. Phillips. Rather close.

Mr. Sprague. When you say rather close, what do you mean?

Mr. Phillips. A few blocks, as I recall, though not

many.

Mr. Sprague. Now, when you were put in charge of the

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Cuban operation, who was your immediate supervisor?

Mr. Phillips. In the normal chain of command itwould have

been the Deputy Chief of Station and then the Chief of Station

In practice, it was more the Chief of Station himself.

MI. Sprague. Who was the Chief of Station?

Mr. Phillips. Winston Scott.

Mr. Sprague. And who was the Deputy Chief who ought to

have been the head man over you?

Mr. Phillips. When I was there, there was a man named

Warren Dean, and I believe he was still there at the time of

Oswald's visit.

He was replaced by a man named Allen White, and it is

possible White was there, but I am almost sure it was Warren

Dean.

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MI. Sprague. All right, but during your period of time

on the Cuban operation, was it Dean and White who were

nominally your supervisors?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, yes, nominally.

MI. Sprague. And who in fact was the supervisor?

Mr. Phillips. The Chief of Station.

Mr. Sprague.

Which was who again?

Mr. Phillips. Winston Scott.

Mr. Sprague. And was he the actual supervisor over you

during the entire period you were in the Cuban operation?

Mr. Phillips. Yes. He dealt pretty much directly with

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Mr. Sprague.

Now, when you were assigned to this

Cuban operation, was there anybody else who was assigned with

you at that same time?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr.

Sprague.

Who?

Mr. Phillips. Mr.

Robert Shaw,

a Mr. Joseph Picolo, a

Mr. Raymond Swider.

Mr. Sprague. Now, were they all assigned to that operation

at the same time you were?

Mr. Phillips. No.

No, there were three of us as a rule, and I believe that

it was Mr. Swider who replaced Mr. Picolo.

Mr. Sprague. Well, let's take this in order.

When you were first assigned to the Cuban operation,

did you succeed somebody who had been in charge of that?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I did.

MI. Sprague. Who did you succeed?

Mr. Phillips. A man named Tom Haslett, who went to

another post overseas.

• Mr. Sprague. And when you commenced this assignment,

the Cuban operation, were there any aides or subordinates

already on that station?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, and as I recall, at the time

that I took over, it was Mr. Shaw ana Mr. Picolo. Then to

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the best of my recollection, Mr. Swider replaced Mr. Picolo

when he went out of town.

Mr. Shaw remained and was there

when I left.

Mr. Sprague. And how long was it, as best you can recall,

that Mr. Picolo remained in that assignment until he was

replaced by Mr. Shaw?

Mr. Phillips. I am sure that Mr. Shaw was there all the

time and was there when I left. And I believe Mr. Picolo

was there and left sometime when I was the Chief and was

replaced by Mr. Swider, but I cannot remember when, but they

were not there simultaneously.

Mr. Sprague. Was there anybody else on the assignment

in the Cuban station under you other than the people that

you have mentioned during the time that that was your

assignment?

Mr. Phillips. There was a secretary I believe we shared

with some other offices.

MI. Sprague. What was her name?

MI. Phillips. I don't recall.

Mr. Sprague. Do you have any recollection as to nick-

name, first name, last name?

Mr. Phillips. Not at the moment, sir.

Mr. Sprague.

Now, would you first just explain to us

the way in which your operation worked?

Mr. Phillips. The Cuban embassy had in it diplomats,

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intelligence officers, consular officers. We had priorities;

the intelligence officers, for instance, were at the top

of the list, and the senior diplomats, and we tried to obtain

information in every way that we could. That was by using

the traditional techniques of espionage, which include, when you

can, having an agent in place inside, which included knowledge

of what was said on telephones, which includes knowledge of

correspondence, and having people who worked for you who have

reason to go in at those embassies and make observations, that

sort of thing.

Mr. Sprague. Now, when you say intercept telephone

conversations, were there wiretaps on the Cuban consul and

embassy offices?

Mr. Phillips. There were, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And who was it that maintained those taps?

Was it your operation?

Mr. Phillips. It was not my operation. It was an outside

operation.

Mr. Sprague. Now, when you say an outside operation, you

mean another assignment area of the CIA?

Mr. Phillips. Another physical area outside of the U.s.

embassy.

Mr. Sprague. And who was in charge of that particular

area?

Mr. Phillips. I believe the senior man in charge of

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that was named George Monroe, In discussing this with your

staff last night, I remembered George, but now I remember the

full name was George Monroe.

MI. Sprague. And would you just explain to us the way in

which that operation worked?

Mr. Phillips. All right, sir. I never visited or

saw it, but as I understood, telephone conversations were

listened to.. There was some

selection there-because there

were so many phones in the embassy, and the attempt to get

them on the important lines, the ones where most information

would be available. They were listened to and put on tape.

Someone would have the responsibility of listening to that

and deciding whether it was worth putting into a transcript,

that is, if there was a telephone call about someone asking

their wife about shopping, that might be something that would

not be on there, but if there was anything that might be

interesting -

Mr. Sprague.

You say wouldn't be on there. You mean

it would be a decision not to transcribe that portion of the

tape.

Mr. Phillips. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Sprague. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Phillips. Otherwise, a transcription was made which

was an effort to reproduce word for word what had been on that

tape. The transcription then came into the station. In the

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case of the Cuban embassy, in Spanish.

MI. Sprague. And who was it that would make the decision

in that particular area whether to transcribe a conversation or

not?

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Mr. Phillips. The person in that outside unit or the

persons there in the outside unit. I do not know because

I didn't visit it and didn't know people who were working.

there.

Mr. Sprague. Approximately how many people were on that

assignment?

Mr. Phillips. I don't have any idea. I would guess a

dozen, but I really don't know.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know the names;of any of the people

who were involved in that assignment?

Mr. Phillips. I do not, sir.

MI. Sprague. Did you not tell us last night the names

of some other people?

Mr. Phillips. I mentioned the name of Ms. Anne Goodpasture,

an officer in the station, and the name of Mr. Monroe.

Mr. Sprague. And were they connected with that assign-

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Mr. Phillips. That is true, sir.

Mr. Sprague. well, why did you just now say you didn't

know anybody else?

Mr. Phillips. I'm SOIry, sir, I thought you meant in the

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itself.

Mr. Sprague.

Well, what is their connection with that

particular unit?

Mr. Phillips. Ms. Goodpasture, for instance, I remember

actually went out and brought back tapes, and remembering our

conversation last night, I remembered during the night last

night that she came sometimes with suitcases that were heavy

and really had tapes in them. So I am not positive where the

Russian translations were made, but she brought them in, and

I don't think they were probably in the station, but not out

in that outside unit in any event.

Mr. Sprague. Are you saying it was up to her to go

and pick up the tapes themselves?

MI. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And where would the tapes be transported to?

Mr. Phillips. To the CIA office.

Mr. Sprague. And that was located where?

Mr. Phillips. In the U.S. embassy.

Mr. Sprague. Now, at the time that this lady picked

up the tapes, had they already been transcribed, do you know?

Mr. Phillips. I believe the situation was she was picking

up only the ones in the Soviet language, and that she would

be picking up transcripts of the ones in Spanish language.

MI. Sprague. Now, when you say she was picking up only

those in the soviet language, do you mean she was picking up

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those on another intercept on the Russian embassy?

Mr. Phillips. As I understand it, it was an intercept from

the outside

unit on the Russian embassy simultaneous with the

one on the Cuban embassy, but the outside unit had Mexican

nationals in it and not people who had, as far as I understood

it. They did the work out there in Spanish, but not, as I

recall the work, in the Russian language.

MI. Sprague. After these tapes were transcribed, what

would happen with the transcriptions?

Mr. Phillips. They would go to the desk of Mr. Win

Scott, the Chief of Station.

Mr. Sprague. And what then would happen?

Mr. Phillips. He would decide how they should be routed,

to what officers, generally what action should be taken, and

then they would be distributed and filed.

Mr. Sprague. Can you give us just the normal process of

what would occur when something in fact was transcribed?

Mr. Phillips. Yes. If there was a transcript and it

had only and solely to do with Cuban matters, it would generally

come to me or to someone in my shop there for the action, if

some was to be taken, or for an information before it went to

the files. If it was something that involved more than one

thing such as a combination of Cuban and Soviet matters, it

would be routed through both persons involved, and sometimes

three persons, depending upon what it was.

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And so they would go to the officers who were concerned

with these particular areas, and then they would also go to

another officer that - I didn't mention last night, the

CIA station generally has a person called a Reports Officer.

That is a person who is not assigned to Cuban things or anything

but put together reports which are disseminated, and there was

such a thing in Mexico, and

some of the time, even a

Reports Officer and assistant, because it was a large station,

relatively speaking. So they would get nearly everything as

well.

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Mr. Sprague. When you say nearly everything, does

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mean they did not get everything?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, because the Chief of Station at his

discretion, if there was something he felt was very, very

sensitive, and that some people did not need to know, in that

case there were occasions when he would cut out one transcript

or send it only to one person.

MI. Sprague. You mean if it was perhaps extremely

sensitive, it would not

" go just to the reports section?

MI. Phillips. That is right.

Mr. Thone. Why did you report directly to Win Scott

and not the Deputy, which was normal procedure?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, it was because of the personality

of Mr. Scott. He was a very strong man, and he did not

delegate, so I did have the obligation according to the system,

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and the second man was my superior, but in fact, Mr. Scott

would call me and say, Phillips, do this and do that.

Mr. Sprague. When these memos or the transcriptions were

processed around, what would then occur with them, and what

action would be taken?

Mr. Phillips. In some cases it was for information only

and it went to the files. In other cases, there was action

often indicated by Mr. Scott by writing on a piece of paper,

please advise so and so, or to the reports officer, I believe

this should be disseminated, a formal dissemination would be

sent to the intelligence community, or any one of a number

of instructions as a result of that.. There might be a query

of what information do we have on this subject or this person,

and then they would go around and someone would usually have

a specific responsibility to do that action.

Mr. Sprague. What was the procedure with regard to

notification of other agencies of government?

Mr. Phillips. A report that is formally disseminated is

one which is written in a certain manner to give the reader

some idea of the validity of the source. It is then sent out

to other agencies, locally as would be appropriate. That is

that almost everything would go to the Ambassador's office,

something that had to do with narcotics or smuggling or

something like that, Immigration and Naturalization, the

military attache's office sometimes would get them, the FBI

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would get them. They always in the case of an American

citizen.

Those reports also would come to Washington and on

occasion would be sent to other countries if there was another

country -- something about an Equadorian who came to Mexico

City and was doing so and so, and sent to other agencies in

Washington.

Mr. Sprague.

Who would make the determination as to what

agencies were to be notified, or whether agencies were to be

notified?

Mr. Phillips. The Chief of Station.

Mr. Sprague. Which was who again?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. Scott. He would generally depend

on the recommendation of the reports officer preparing - I

am speaking now, sir, of formal intelligence reports as opposed

to just sending some messages back and forth, and he would

depend generally on the reports officer's suggestions.

He

might change it.

Mr. Sprague. But it was up to Mr. Scott to make the final

decision whether other agencies of the Federal Government should

be notified about information that had been obtained.

Mr. Phillips. Absolutely, sir.

Mr. Sprague. You mentioned notification to Washington.

Mr. Phillips. Uh-huh.

MI. Sprague.

By Washington you mean CIA headquarters in

Washington?

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Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. Sprague. What would motivate, as far as you know, the

decision to notify CIA headquarters in Washington?

Mx. Phillips. Because this was information of the kind

that might be valuable, say, to policymakers or something

like that. In nearly every one of these things, for instance,

the formal disseminations would be sent to the Department of

State here in Washington for their information.

Mr. Sprague.. No, but I am talking about the decision to

notify CIA headquarters in Washington, would it be a routine

of each of these intercepts?

Mr. Phillips. No, not each of the intercepts. This is

only a formal intelligence report, not in the case of the

intercepts.

Mr. Sprague. What would occasion a decision to notify

CIA headguarters in Washington with regard to an intercept?

Mr. Phillips. In the first case, something of enough

importance that it would be turned into a formal report and

would reach Washington not recognizeable as coming from a

transcript. Secondly, if it had information which was very

useful to washington of to some other country, in which case

it would be sent not as a formal dissemination but simply

for your information, here is what we have learned. And

finally, if there were names that it looked like they should

go in the record, or things that didn't seem terribly important,

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they might come up in an informal manner

' in the diplomatic

pouch in the form of papers themselves being

sent up.

Mr. Sprague. Would you

say of the total number of

intercepts, that it would be a very small number where notifica-

tion would be made to CIA headguarters in Washington?

Mr. Phillips. Relatively speaking, small,

sir, quite

small.

Mr. Sprague. Would it be accurate to describe those

small numbers as being something more involved than the normal

intercept, something of a little more importance?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, that is true.

Mr. Sprague. Now, with regard to these tapes that were

recordings of conversations, what was the procedure with

regards to the tapes themselves?

You have said that there was the transcription, and I

have heard you say that they were then carried from one place

to another. What would end up, what would happen with these

tapes?

Mr. Phillips. All right, sir, remembering last night,

and the fact that these tapes were coming in, it is my

best recollection now that Soviet tapes would come in to be

translated actually in the station somewhere, and that there was

a translator in the station for the Soviet business. I recall

thinking last night, I remember the name of the translator,

and we used to be in a poker club together, and I remember

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he worked in the embassy office.

Mr. Sprague. And what was his name?

Mr. Phillips. His name was George Misco.

Mr. Sprague. Misco?

MI. Phillips. Uh-huh.

Mr. Sprague. Do you remember whether Misco was married or

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Mr. Phillips. I know that he was married. I understand

that he was not in Mexico that Oswald was there, but I believe

he was married, yes. I'm not positive.

Mr. Sprague. What gave you to understand that he was not

in Mexico at the time that Oswald was there?

Mr. Phillips. Because I received a telephone call on

the appearance of the Post story from the CIA asking me what

I knew about the source of the information and so forth, and

the translator and the secretary, and I said the only trans-

lator I can remember was George Misco. In a subsequent

conversation, the fellow I talked to said by the way, we

understand George was not in Mexico at the time.

That's why

I remember.

Mr. Sprague.

Who was it that called you?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. John Waller.

Mr. Sprague. Would you spell that last name?

Mr. Phillips. W-a-1-1-e-I.

Mr. Sprague. And who is John Waller?

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MI. Phillips. He is an officer at the CIA, and I talked

to him the same day about telling him that I was planning to come

down and testify and that consequently I considered myself release

from my security oath. He is now the Inspector General of CIA.

Mr. Sprague. John Waller is?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Sprague.

And did Waller ask you questions with

regard to the information in the Post story?

Mr. Phillips. He wanted to know if I knew where the

information came from.

Mr. Sprague. Well, first answer my question. Did he

ask you for information concerning what was in the Post story?

Mr. Phillips. Yes,

sir, the first --

Mr. Sprague.

What did he ask you?

Mr. Phislips.'

The first question was, is that story the

testimony which you gave to the Senate Subcommittee of

Senators Schwieker and Hart, and I said no, sir, and he said,

do you know who the translator might be, and I said, the only

name I remember of a translator is George Misco.

Mr. Sprague. What else did he ask you or say to you?

Mr. Phillips. That was it, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Were you advised by anyone from the CIA

that the secrecy agreement was still binding on you?

Mr. Phillips. I was told that technically --

Mr. Sprague.

Well, answer my question. Were you advised

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by anyone from the CIA that the secrecy agreement was still

binding you?

MI. Phillips. No, sir.

Mr. Sprague. What were you advised?

Mr. Phillips. I was told that technically it was, but

they left it up to me. And I said, well, I know what I

considered, but I was not told that it was -

Mr. Sprague. Now, when you say they, who else from the

CIA was in touch with you other than Mr. Waller?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. Lyle Miller. He is an attorney.

Mr. Sprague. And what is Mr. Miller's role with the

CIA?

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Mr. Phillips. He is in the Office of the Legal Counsel,

I believe, or Legislative Counsel, one of the two, but he is

a lawyer.

Mr. Sprague. What happened thereafter with regard to

contacts by the CIA?

Mr. Thone: Mr. Sprague, I am very interested.

What do they mean when

they say technically?

Mr. Phillips. The explanation was that technically,

because staff had not formally received security clearances,

that was the technicality.

Mr. Thone. I still don't understand.

Is there an implied threat when they say technically?

Mr. Phillips. Oh, no, sir.

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Mr. Thone. None whatsoever.

Mr. Phillips. I had informed them of my intention to

come down, and the answer was well, technically you are not to be

released from your secrecy oath, but you do what you want to.

I am not going to tell you what to do.

MI. Thone. Why would they bring up the word "technically"

if they did not have sone concern?

Mr. Phillips. I don't know, sir, but I didn't feel that

it was a threat or asking me not to speak or anything.

Mr. Thone. Why would it be mentioned at all, in your

opinion? You are a veteran here. Were they cautioning you?

MI. Phillips. I did not see it as caution. I just

think, sir, that it was because I had said that I was going

to go down and testify freely, and so they were responding

as bureaucrats do, but I really don't know, sir.

Mr. Sprague. After these conversations with these two

CIA agents, what occasioned the next conversation with a

CIA agent?

Mr. Phillips. Are we speaking of yesterday, sir?

Mr. Sprague. Yes

Mr. Phillips. There were two conversations, I believe.

Mr. Sprague. Didn't you say that the first person subse-

quently called you back to tell you that that person that you

named was not there at the time?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

I made the first call to Mr. WAller.

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A call came back from Mr. Waller, and there was the third and

subsequent call from Mr. Miller who had been advised by

Mr. Waller that I had called and said that I was coming down,

Mr. Miller, the lawyer, made the third call to me.

Mr. Sprague. You have got me mixed up. Now, let's take

these in order. When was the first contact by anyone from the

CIA with you with regard to the story in the Post and your

testifying before the Subcommittee?

Mr. Phillips. I called the Subcommittee.

Mr. Sprague. When?

Mr. Phillips. Shortly before lunch, and asked for Mr.

Mr. Sprague. When?

Mr. Phillips. On the day the story appeared.

MI. Sprague. Yesterday.

Mr. Phillips. Yesterday.

Mr. Sprague. And who did you ask for?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. Waller.

Mr. Sprague. And why were you calling him?

Mr. Phillips. Because he is an old personal friend.

Mr. Sprague. And did you want to discuss with him the

story and your possible appearance?

Mr. Phillips. No, I wanted to go onto the record that

I, as I understood my duties, before a duly constituted

Committee, that I was to come down, and that my secrecy

oath did not apply in this case. And so I advised that to Mr.

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Waller. He later contacted Mr. Miller, and that presumably

triggered Mr. Miller's call to me to talk about the secrecy

agreement.

MI. Sprague. And who was it that said to you that this

technically applies?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. Miller.

Mr. Sprague. And what else was covered in that conversa-

tion, if anything?

Mr. Phillips. That was it, sir, it was very brief.

Mr. Sprague. Well, that is what my question is. Was

the whole content of that conversation Mr. Miller's telling

you that technically that agreement still was binding on you?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, and also to tell me something

like they weren't going to tell me what to do or anything like

that.

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Mr. Thone. Excuse me, MI. Sprague, but when they tell

you technically, again, you are a thirty-year veteran of

the CIA, aren't they cautioning you to be very careful in your

choice of - my language. Why would he bring up the language

well, no, it doesn't apply, but technically it does apply?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I don't know, but it was in the

context of letting me know that they were not saying to me

don't go down and testify, and so that is why I did not see it

as a threat.

Mr. Thone. I don't want to be argumentative, sir,

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but if they were going to be freely telling you to come down

and testify, why would they bring up that word, which frankly

concerns me?

MI. Phillips. Sir, I don't know.

Mr. Thone. To me it is a veiled caution that the secrecy

technically still does apply to the testimony you are giving

us this morning. Wouldn't that be a reasonable interpretation?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I didn't take it that way, and I

intend to testify fully, so I didn't read it that way.

MI. Thone. Well, that of course, is all-important.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Thone. And in no way, form, or shape is that

admonition influencing anything you are telling us here today.

Mr. Phillips. Absolutely not, sir.

Mr. Sprague. How long after the call that you had with

the first person was it before the call came from Mr. Miller?

Mr. Phillips. The first time I called for MI. Waller,

I asked for him and he was at lunch, and I asked for him to

call me.

Mr. Sprague. How long after you spoke to Mr. Waller

was it before you then spoke to Mr.Miller?

Mr. Phillips. I recall it being about 30 minutes.

Mr. Sprague. And when you spoke to Mr. Miller, did

he at that time advise you that Mr. Waller had said that

the person you thought was the translator or interpretor was

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not the person, or was that yet another call?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, that was Mr. Waller in the

conversation advising that.

Mr. Sprague. And that was in a third call.

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, that was the second call with

Mr. Waller.

MI. Sprague. All right, now, when was the second call?

As I understand what you said, you called Mr. Waller. He was

not in. You left word and Mr. Waller then called you back.

Mr. Phillips. After lunch, I would say about a quarter of

3:00, 2:30, quarter of 3:00.

Mr. Sprague. And at that time you discussed this story

with Mr. Waller.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And he asked you at that time who did you

think was the interpretor?

Mr. Phillips. THat is right, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And you gave him the name.

Mr. Phillips. That's right, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Now, was it in that same conversation that

he told you that they had checked and that person was not

down in Mexico then?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir. It was about 20 or 30 minutes

later.

MI. Sprague. All right, that was my --

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Mr. Phillips. He called, he called back to me.

Mr. Sprague. Well, that is what I want to find out.

After that conversation with Mr. Waller --

Mr. Phillips. Uh-huh --

Mr. Sprague. And prior to your conversation with Mr.

Miller, had Mr. Waller called you back again?

MI. Phillips. Yes, sir, he called twice.

Mr. Sprague.

So after the first conversation with Mr.

Waller, then in approximately 20 minutes Mr. Waller calls

you again.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And what did. Mr. Waller tell you at that

time, and what was that conversation about?

Mr. Phillips. He called me to tell me - during that

conversation he mentioned a man's name that I had gathered

was not stationed in Mexico, and he told me that he had

passed on, I believe he said to Mr. Miller, the fact that

I had called and said that I intended to testify because Mr.

Waller was not necessarily the man that I would have called

if I had known just the person

to call, but I had known him.

That person whom he notified, MI. Miller, who is either the

Legislative or Legal Counsel's office, called me, which was

the third call in the series,

and this all occurred in about

an hour.

MI. Sprague. All right, let's take now the second call

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to Mr. Waller. Other than Mr. Waller stating to you that the

person you were naming he has checked on and that person was

not working in Mexico at that time -

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And other than stating that he has referred!

this matter or turned it over to Mr. Miller, was anything else

said by Mr. Waller in that conversation?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall anything else, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Well, was he saying anything about not

mentioning another party, since he has just checked on one

name that you mentioned and found that that person you said

wasn't working there?

Was there anything along that line?

Mr. Phillips. He did say one other thing, to continue

on that, which was we don't think he was working there. It

was another fellow but I won't say who that is because I don't

want to confuse you, or something like that. But I won't tell

you who that is, and he didn't.

MI. Sprague. And was anything said about their

attempting to contact any of these other people?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

Mr. Sprague. When he said to you in effect that your

information was incorrect, that he was not going to tell you

who the other person is, or another name, because it might

confuse you or would confuse you --

Mr. Phillips. I am not sure, sir, he used the word

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"confuse"

• I do recall he said, but I won't tell you the

other person's name.

No. Sprague.

well, didn't you justr say that he said he

didn't want to confuse you?

Mr. Phillips. I am not sure that is an accurate quote

for that word.

Mr. Sprague. Well, let me ask you this. Did his call

to you in the context of indicating that they had checked the

name and that person appears not to have worked there, make you

a little more questioning about your own recollection?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, because my original thinking of

the man's name was simply a translator who I knew in

Mexico, not in the context of the translator who -- not in the

context of the Oswald translator.

MI. Sprague. But did his call have any effect in making

you a little more questioning about your entire recollection

of this matter?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I think no.

Mr. Sprague. All right.

What else was then said in that call other than what

you have just said?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall anything else, sir.

Mr. Sprague. With regard to the Miller call, have you

related it in its entirety?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, it was brief.

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Mr. Sprague. Well, I know what you have said. Is there

anything you omitted from that call?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, there is another thing. He said

something about contacting your staff.

Mr. Sprague. He said who was contacting the staff?

Mr. Phillips. He said something about he would be calling

your staff or something like that.

Mx. Sprague. Did he say for what purpose?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir. He said he would be calling -

I don't think he mentioned a name, someone on your staff, and

I presumed he was going to say, I spoke to Mr. Phillips and

we know he is coming down. He said if I have anything else

to tell you, I will call you before 4:00 o'clock, and he did

not call.

Mr. Thone. You hesitated just a minute on that name of

the staff member here. Can you give that a little bit more

thought? Did he mention a name?

Mr. Phillips. I think he did, sir.

Mr. Thone. Can you give that

a little thought?

Mr. Phillips. I had just shortly been contacted by

MI. Feeney. Mr. Feeney's name was the only one I knew.

Sir,

I will try to. I can't think of it. I am not positive that

he did mention a name, but he said I will be contacting the

staff.

Nir. Sprague.

Other than news media, did anyone else

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attempt to contact you and in fact contact you once this

story broke in the post, regarding the story and your appear-

ance before this Subcommittee other than these people from

the CIA?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, other than the news media.

Mr. Sprague. Now, going back, when these intercepts

occurred, who was it that was responsible for making the

transcripts from the tapes?

Was it the same unit that was responsible for the

intercepts?

MI. Phillips. Certainly in the case of the Spanish

ones, they were made in the unit where they were received,

and those transcripts then came into the station, and in the

case of conversations in the Russian language, as best as I

can recall it, they came into the station, and I was wondering

last night whether it was a little unit outside, but I don't

recall that there was. There may have been a translator outside,

and then they were once again taken out of the station to the

Soviet translator, but as I understood it, there were no

Soviet language experts in that unit outside, but in the

• station, yes.

MI. Sprague. Just so I understand this, when you

distinguish between Spanish and Russian --

MI. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. You are not distinguishing in terms of the

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place that is intercepted, but the conversation that is on

that interception, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And this intercept operation, if I can

use that word, was that not only intercepting the conversations

that were at the Cuban embassy and consul, was that operation

also intercepting conversations at the Russian embassy and

consul?

Mr. Phillips. THat is correct, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And so I understand it, in either situation,

Spanish conversation would be translated and typed right

there where that intercept operation was, wherever that may have

been.

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Mr. Phillips. '

That is what I understood it, but I

never visited it.

Mr. Sprague. And the Russian conversation that was

picked up, whether at the Cuban or the Russian embassies, was

taken to somewhere in the embassy itself where it was then

translated and typed up, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. That is correct. It may have been that

some of those Russian things then went out to a Russian

translator who actually worked outside. I don't know that that

was the case.

Mr. Sprague. All right, let's deal right at the moment

with the Russian part of that.

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Do you know who was the translator in the embassy to

translate those intercepts that involved the Russian language?

Mr. Phillips. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Is that the name that you were stating

yesterday, to whom Mr. -- the CIA agent --

Mr. Phillips.. The name of Mr. George Misco I was

stating was the only name of a Russian translator I remembered

Mr. Sprague. Was that the name you were thinking, though?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. When you were talking about the translator

for the Russian conversation?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And what is that person's name?

Mr. Phillips. George Misco. That is the phonetic.

am not sure how it is pronounced.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know who was the typist for whoever

was the translator of the Russian conversations?

First, do you know?

Mr. Phillips. The translator?

Mr. Sprague. Do you know who was the typist for that

translator of those intercepts?

MI. Phillips. I don't recall the names. I recall two

women, American women who were local employees. That is, they

were not sent from Washington but were hired locally. I

didn't know them personally, but perhaps their husband was in

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business or something like that, and since foreign nationals

were not allowed into this office, they did come in and work

on a contract basis, but not a regular U.S. Government

employee, and I can't remember their names, but I recall two

of them.

Mr. Sprague. Do you have any recollection of first names,

nicknames, last names of any of these typists of the intercepts?

Mr. Phillips. Not at this time. I could recognize

photographs, but I can't remember their names. I will try

to.

Mr. Sprague. All right, now, going back to the Spanish

intercepts, do you know who was the translator of the Spanish

intercepts?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know who any of the typists were

there?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

MI. Sprague. Now, let me ask you this. When a

conversation is intercepted, was there any procedure for

dealing more immediately with a conversation that the listener

that was listening at the same time thought was a little

more important than just the normal intercept?

Just answer first yes or no.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Sprague. And what was that procedure?

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MI. Phillips. As I recall it, a telephone call to someone

in the CIA station from that place saying hey, we have something

terribly interesting here.

Mr. Sprague. Now, would that be made by the monitor

himself, or would he report that to somebody else who would

then make the decision as to do something for more immediacy?

MI. Phillips. Sir, I don't know.

Mr. Sprague. When the telephone call that you have

alluded to was made, as far as you know, to whom would that

be made?

Mr. Phillips. Customarily it would be made to Ms.

Anne Goodpasture.

MI. Sprague. And she again is whom?

Mr. Phillips. She was the woman inside the station who

had the primary responsibility for this outside unit. Mr.

Monroe didn't come every morning to the CIA station but stayed

outside.

MI. Sprague.

Now, you have talked about your Cuban

assignment.

Was there similarly a Russian assignment?

Mr. Phillips. There was.

Mr. Sprague. And in 1963, while you were, let us say,

on this Cuban assignment from mid-1963, who was the individual

that was in charge of the counterpart to you with the Russian

embassy assignment?

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Mr. Phillips. MI. Herbert Manel.

Mr. Sprague. And do you know who were the people at that

time who were working under Mr. Manel?

First, do you?

Mr. Phillips. I know immediately one, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And what is that person's name? •

Mr. Phillips. Barbara Manel.

MI. Sprague. Barbara Manel is Mr. Manel's wife?

Mr. Phillips. That is true, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And was she also an employee working on

that assignment with Mr. Manel?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. She was a former staff employee

of the CIA who had specialized in Soviet matters, and I

believe was hired in Mexico I believe on a part time basis, but

as the other locals were. In other words, she did not enjoy

her staff - she had resigned from CIA but was then hired

again to work inside and to assist her own husband in Soviet

matters, because she knew the Soviet language, and had the

background and so forth.

Mr. Sprague. Now, do you know anyone else who was working

in the Soviet assignment other than Mr. and Mrs. Manel, and

I take it Mr. Manel was the supervisor in charge of that.

Mr. Phillips. He was, sir.

There was -- I recall a man named MI. Benjamin Pepper

who worked for Mr. Manel and had responsibility for not

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necessarily for - not necessarily where Mr. Manel was concerned

with Soviet matters. Mr. Pepper was concerned with Czechos1o-

vakian matters, Polish matters and so forth, and then would

assist Mr. Manel in the Soviet thing and that part of the

shop.

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Mr. Sprague.

The United Press has a specific quotation

of a statement which they say you made to a United Press

International reporter named Daniel F. Gillmore, quoting in

part as follows: "I have the recollection hazy after fourteen

years that Oswald intimated that he had information that

might be useful to the Soviets and Cuba, and that he hoped

to be provided with free transportation to Russia via Cuba."

Did you make that statement to Mr. Daniel F. Gillmore

of United Press International?

MI. Phillips. I did, sir.

MI. Sprague. Is that statement accurate?

Mr. Phillips. I think it is, sir, yes, it is.

Mr. Sprague. There is, in the Washington Post of

yesterday's date, a story by Ronald Kessler in which he

quotes you in part stating that you recall from a transcript

Oswald telling the Soviet embassy, "I have information you

would be interested in, and I know you can pay my way" into

Russia, but that is not part of the quote.

Is that what you said in part to Mr. Kessler?

Mr. Phillips. I feel that I cannot answer that yes or

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no without explaining that I met with Mr. Kessler on two

occasions, once for a long lunch, once in a coffee shop, and

he called me two or three times on the phone.

In these discussions with Mr. Kessler, I did -- he

raised the subject of whether or not Oswald was offering

information, was being paid, wanted to be paid to go to the

Soviet Union, and wanted to know whether or not I could confirm

that. I did confirm in the sense --

Mr. Sprague. My question is, I have read a specific

quotation, MI. Phillips. You are under oath at this time.

Mr. Phillips. I understand.

Mx. Sprague. And I will reread the quotation, because

I do want to know, did you make this statement in part.

I understand that there were other parts to the conversation,

but did you make this statement to Mr. Kessler --' I'm not-

talking about you, I am talking about what Oswald allegedly

said: "I have information you would be interested in, and

I know you can pay my way. "

Mr. Phillips. I think I may have said that or something

near to it, but what I intended to convey was that Mr. Kessler

was saying, well, is that the idea, and I said yes, that was

the idea that we gathered.

Mr. Sprague. Okay.

MI. Phillips. That was what I was trying to --

Mr. Sprague. I'm sorry. I did not mean to cut you off.

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Is there something else you wanted to say on that?

Mr. Phillips. No,

sir.

Mr. Sprague. All right, now, dealing specifically with

these calls, were there intercepts

made of telephone calls by

Lee Harvey Oswald while in Mexico to the Russian embassy?

MI. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And do you know where the tapes of those

conversations

are?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Sprague. Now, let me back up if I may, a second.

When we were talking earlier about the taping and these

intercepts, and then transcriptions being made, what was the

procedure with regard to the tapes themselves?

Mr. Phillips. The procedure was that a transcript was

to be made from them, and then the tapes would be erased.

the case.

Mr. Sprague. Now, let me ask you here, was that always

For example, let me throw out one. Let's suppose

a conversation was picked up indicating that someone perhaps

might be engaged in spying activity -

Mr. Phillips. Uh-huh.

Mr. Sprague. Would there not be anyone who would then

want to keep that tape as possible evidence?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague Who would that go to for the decision

making with regard to not destroying the tape?

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MI. Phillips. If a tape - the first decision would be

made by Mr. Scott when he saw the transcript. I don't

recall a particular case, but he would write "Hold this tape"

meaning don't destroy this tape, something like.

Mr. Sprague. Do I take it from that that the orders were

to destroy or to reuse the tapes, if I can use that instead

of the word "destroy tapes", to use them over and over I take

it is what you mean.

Is that right?

Mr. Phillips. As I understood, sir, unless the people

in the unit were so advised, they understood that they were to

erase them and use them again.

Mr. Sprague. In other words, the basic order was that

the tapes are not maintained after they are transcribed unless

there was a specific directive order to the contrary.

Mr. Phillips. That is right, sir, and that might be

by someone other than Mr. Scott. If it were a Cuban matter, I

might say to someone, please have them hold that tape

for a while, and I might speak directly to Ms. Goodpasture.

Mr. Sprague. Now, how long a time would normally occur

before tapes were, let's say, destroyed, to allow for the

decisionmaking process that somebody might decide that they

want to keep the tape?

Mr. Phillips. To my personal knowledge, I don't know,

sir. I heard other people's accounts of it, but to my

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personal knowledge, I don't know how long.

MI. Sprague.*

Well, let me press that a little further.

Obviously if there is an area that is going to involve

somebody having the opportunity to make a decision not to

destroy tapes, there has to be some timespan after a

transcript is made, the minimal, whatever that length of

time is, before any tape is destroyed. Otherwise you might

have a tape destroyed and somebody, Mr. Scott or you, seeing

the transcript maybe a couple of days thereafter and wanting

the tape, and it would be destroyed.

That did not exist, did it?

Mr. Phillips. I understood it to exist in the form of,

if I wanted a tape, that I had better ask for it before a

week, say, had passed. A week is the time period that I

recall. If you were to call up 13 days later that - call

Ms. Goodpasture and say hey, give me that tape, she would

say, oh, it is

gone, and that if you wanted to keep it, you

should do it sooner, and roughly a week is the time.

MI. Sprague. Well, let me ask you this. I mean, you

are dealing with a spy, intelligence agency. Was there some

set directive order of some type stating that tapes are not

to be destroyed until a certain length of time, so that was

definite policy, and that was not?

Mr. Phillips. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And who was it that would destroy the tape?

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Mr. Phillips. The tape, as I -- this would be in this

outside unite - as I understood, would not be destroyed,

but they would simply be piled up, the ones that had conversa-

tions on it, and then as the cycle of conversations are to

be taken care of, when they needed new tapes, they would

simply reach over and

get one of the old ones and start

again, which automatically erased the recording of before,

what was on there before, but I don't have personal knowledge

of it.

Mr. Sprague. All right now, your decisionmaking, in

terms of a decision to keep

a take, what would be the

guidelines that would exist for you in making that decision?

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Mr. Phillips. The only thing that would be absolutely

definate as a guideline would be if the Chief of Station

wrote a note to me, "Keep this tape." It would certainly --

MI. Sprague. Well, I understood when Mr. Scott or anybody

above you said that, but I am asking you what were your own

criteria for a decision on your part to keep the tape.

For example, if there were an intercept there

and someone

was heard making a threat against a Congressman, would there

be a decision to keep that as possible evidence for a subsequent

prosecution?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, I think that is a good example.

Another one is if there is a conversation between someone that

you recognized as really being a Soviet agent and pretending

to be someone else or a man who you thought was a Cuban

intelligence agent, something of a high priority where you

thought you might have to have it.

Mr. Sprague. Well, if you intercepted something that

would of itself indicate an illegal act for which there could

be prosecution under American laws, would there be a decision

to maintain that tape for possible evidence in a subsequent

prosecution?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I think not, because what would

happen in such a circumstance I think was that an American,

information on an American would be passed to the Chief of the

FBI.

The Chief of the FBI knew full well that they were

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telephone transcriptions, that the information was coming to

him from teltaps, so he could then say to Win Scott, I want

you to save that. A CIA station, I think, would depend on

whether he wanted to do it, if it's the case of an American

in criminal prosecution.

Mr. Sprague. Well, maybe I'm jumping ahead here, but for

example, if there is an intercept indicating that Lee Harvey

Oswald is getting to Cuba - attempting to get to Cuba, and•

you have his voice on that conversation, at that time it was

against the law for Americans to go to Cuba, was it not? Am

I correct on that?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, that's right. That's right, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Would not then the CIA, someone there at

least put a hold on that tape for possible use as evidence?

Mr. Phillips. In that case that would not be the kind of

thing that would merit calling someone and say, "Hold that

tape," as long as you had the information.

Mr. Sprague. What would be the difference between that

and intercepting a threat concerning your Congressman?

Mr. Phillips. Well, the dimension of the difference.

With every CIA station, contemplating using one of these tapes

produced by Mexican nationals was one that I don't think Mr.

Scott thought of a great deal, in other words, admitting it as

evidence. So there was not a tendency to think of it in those

terms, and I think the idea was you would depend on the FBI

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to say that, because in 1962, at least, the thought of passing

a

tape to be used in a Court proceeding was -- would have

dismayed a lot of intelligence people.

Mr. Sprague. Well, let me ask you this then, this time

span before a tape would be reused or destroyed, did it also

allow not only for decision making within the CIA about

maintaining that tape, but did it allow for notification to

the FBI for their evaluation and a response back not to destroy

the tape?

Mr. Phillips. My dealings with the FBI were so infrequent

that I cannot answer your question exactly. It was my pre-

sumption that it certainly was.

Mr. Sprague. Well, this gets back to, wasn't there any-

thing of any formality within the CIA about not destruction

within a time to allow for these various things to occur?

Mr. Phillips. Certainly there was none I have ever

seen in the sense of a guidance from headquarters to stations,

if you have tapes, keep them so long. It was a local matter.

There was in the station a set of rules called Station

Regulations. You cannot carry a gun. You cannot drink whiskey

in your office, things like that. That would include some sort

of

operational directive, and that it the place there would

have been a thing that says, we do not destroy tapes for, say,

ten days. I never saw such a regulation nor heard of it in

Mexico City Station.

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Mr. Sprague. While you were on this Cuban assignment,

did you ever have occasion to give an order not to destroy a

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tape?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall the instance in doing it,

but I must have done it a couple of times during the two years.

Mr. Sprague. Do you have any recollection as to what

engendered that directive on your part?

Mr. Phillips. Yes. It's very hazy, but I believe I

remember something like saying to Miss Goodpasture, will you

please hold that 'til we find out if this guy might be so-and-so

and then we found out that the fellow making the telephone

call was not so-and-so, and then I said, okay, let it go,

thinking he was an intelligence agent from another country.

Mr. Sprague. And do you remember, as best you can tell,

what was the substance of that conversation that at least

engendered your wanting to keep that tape?

Mr. Phillips. I only have the vague memory that it was

something to do with kind of a significant espionage thing.

It was an important man that was contacting the Cubans that

we had heard some place might be a Soviet agent, and we wanted

to know what that nexus was, but I don't recall, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know

once you give an order to hold

I tape how long it is maintained in that hold status?

Mr. Phillips. My understanding was that it would not

be reused until whoever you told, say Miss Goodpasture would

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come back and say, "Do you still want that tape?"

Mr. Sprague. In other words, it would be held until there

was then a specific order not to maintain it any longer?

Mr. Phillips. That is right, sir.

Mr. Sprague. During your assignment there, other than

this one hazy hold order by you, do you recall any other hold

orders by you?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Sprague. Are you aware of hold orders by Mr. Scott?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. I don't recall what they were,

but I remember seeing written on a thing, "Hold this." on a

transcript. "Hold the tape." I cannot recall the cases.

Mr. Phillips. Do you have any idea as to the frequency

of hold orders on tapes by Mr. Scott?

Mr. Phillips. Infrequent. Not very often. Once every

three weeks or something. I'm just hazarding a guess.

Mr. Sprague. And do you recall any hold orders by Mr.

Manel?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Phillips. Now, getting to this transcript of Oswald,

at the time we are talking about were there also bugging

devices in each of these embassies, Cuban and Soviet?

Mr. Phillips. To the best of my knowledge there was not

one in the Soviet Embassy. I was never aware of one being

there during the time I was there.

Over a period of years

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there were several bugging devices in the Cuban Embassy. I

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am trying to recall whether one was operating at the time of

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Oswald's visit. And I am not absolutely positive, but what

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I am sure about is that we did not receive any information

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about Oswald because of an electronic bug.

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Mr. Sprague. My next question is, to the best of your

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recollection, all conversations by Lee Harvey Oswald, were

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they as a result of these telephonic intercepts that you had

any contact with?

Mr. Phillips. And how many, to the best of your recollection,

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of these intercepts, did you have contact with?

Mr. Phillips. I am positive about one, and I am wondering

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about the possibility of one more or perhaps two little --

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little things that might have come up later, but I cannot

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"recall with clarity other than the one.

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recall, if there was some little

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snippets later, they were not of importance.

That is the

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one principal one that I recall and that is the only one that

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Mr. Sprague. All right, now, Mr. Phillips, I want you

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to relate to this Subcommittee your best recollection, and I

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understand that it is your recollection, of that first

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intercepted conversation that you saw in its entirety as you

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Mr. Phillips. All right, sir. Now, Counsellor, am I

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correct in remembering if you have suggested that my answers

pertain toimy personal knowledge and not -- would you repeat

that?

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Mr. Sprague. I do not want you to give an answer based

upon what anyone else says. I do not want you to give an

answer trying to square your answer with what you believe is

on somebody else's transcript or anything else. I want this to

be your own answer as best you can recall, of what was the

purport of that first intercept.

Mr. Phillips. Okay. All right.

Obviously after so long I can't remember it word for word,

but I remember that the thrust of the conversation was Oswald

saying to the Soviet he talked to in the Soviet Embassy,

"What

have you heard about my visa, what news do you have?"

"What

"have you heard about my visa, what news do you have," something

like that. I also recall that Oswald was kind of saying,

"What's wrong, why don't you do this?" And I recall something

in that conversation that I can only call an intimation that

he said, "well, you really should talk to me," or something

like that. Now, it seems that I recall that, and that is

all that I recall with absolute clarity.

In reviewing that statement, while I cannot recall exactly

I feel sure that while the intimation of Oswald saying he

wanted a visa, he said to go to the Soviet Union or Cuba or

go to the Soviet Union via Cuba was the intimation that he

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hoped to obtain his expenses, something, but no statement, I

definately do not remember that he said, "If my ticket is

paid.".

Mr. Sprague. Well, this statement that you made to Mr.

Gillmore, "I have the recollection hazy after fourteen years

that Oswald intimated that he had information that might be

useful to the Soviets and Cuba and that he hoped to be provided

with free transportation to Russia via Cuba."

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Does that accurately state what it is that

you recall of that transcript?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir. That states more accurately my

recollection of the transcript and then after the fact of the

assassination and the increased interest in talking with

people about this, including people for whom I was responsible

in the Cuban field, the total perception I had was that that

was the reason he was there. First of all, the thing --

Mr. Sprague. Mr. Phillios, are you telling this

Committee that when you made the statement yesterday, "I have

the recollection hazy after fourteen years that Oswald

intimated that he had information that might be useful to

the Soviets

and Cuba and that he hoped to be provided with

free transportation to Russia via Cuba," that that statement

by you encompassed more than your recollection of the

transcript and included what you say is subsequently acquired

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information after the assassination?

Mr. Phillips. I think that it has been colored by the

things I heard after the assassination.

Mr. Sprague. Well, what part here was colored? When you

responded to Mr. Gillmore were you trying to tell him what your

recollection of that transcript was?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I was not trying to explain to

him that the transcript said that.

Mr. Sprageu. Was there a part of that transcript that

indicated that Oswald would be of value to the Soviets?

Mr. Phillips. I have the recollection somewhere, possibly

in that transcript, was a statement that went something like

this, Counsellor: "You should really talk to me," or something

like that. Yes, there was something like that and I can't

recall what words were said.

Mr. Sprague. Were the words there such as for you to

state that they were words which Oswald was stating to the

Soviet Embassy, whoever he was talking to there, that it would

"be to the benefit of the Soviets to be talking to him?

Mr. Phillips. In the sense that Oswald, in his conversa-

tion, was sort of making a pitch, trying to get what he wanted.

Mr:

Sprague. I am not talking about what his motivation

may have been. I am just trying to find out were the words

such as to indicate that Oswald, whether he was tooting his

own horn or otherwise is not important, but was he indicating

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to them that it would be to their benefit or advantage to

be talking to him?

Mr. Phillips. I only recalled it in the sense that "You

fellows should talk to me," or something like that.

Mr. Sprague. And was he indicating in that conversation

that he was looking or urging them to aid him in getting out

of the country?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. All right.

Mx. Phillips. But not with money, not saying, "Will you

pay for my ticket."

Mr. Sprague. Well, what, as best you can recall, was it

that he was saying for them to aid him in getting out of the

country?

Mr. Phillips. I only recall that he was reaching them

to give him the visa so that he could indeed leave the

country.

Mr. Sprague. With regard to his indication that they

ought to be in touch with him or talking to him, was anything

said about where or anything like that?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

Mr. Sprague. What else was said in this conversation,

as best you can recall? How did he start the conversation

as best you recall?

Mr. Phillips. "I am calling about my visa.

Have you

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heard word about my visa. I want to go to the soviet -- "

Mr. Sprague. Well, did he not identify himself?

Mr. Phillips. Well, yes, he did.

Mr. Sprague. What did he say?

Mr. Phillips. He did identify himself.

Mr. Sprague. As best you can recall, what was said?

Mr. Phillips. He introduced himself by saying something

like, "My name is Lee Harvey Oswald." That's not the way I

first saw it, but that was subsequent. He introduced himself

and in the transcription, as I recall, it read "Lee Henry

Oswald. "

Mr. Sprague. Is that your recollection, that in that

first transcript he said, as you saw it, he used the middle

name - now, Mr. Phillips, are you trying to conform your

recollection to what you believe is some other evidence?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I am trying to be as honest as I

can.

Mr. Sprague. Well, I am asking you again.

Mr. Phillips. I remember distinctly that the cable that

went

out said "Lee Henry Oswald."

MI. Sprague. I'm not asking about that. I am asking

whether or not you have a recollection as to how he identified

himself in that transcript of that intercepted conversation?

Mr. Phillips. I do not remember that he gave his name.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know whether of not he in any way

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identified himself as an American citizen in that conversation?

Mr. Phillips. I do not recall it, sir.

Mr. Sprague. All right.

Now, tell the Subcommittee - by the way, when was this

as best you can recall?

Mr. Phillips. In very early October.

Mr. Sprague. Was it October or September of '63?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I believe it was October.

Mi. Sprague. If I were to state to you that records

indicate that intercept was picked up in September of '63,

would you quarrel with that?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir. My recollection was that this

was toward the end of the week and because it was Saturday and

Sunday, it wouldn't have been worked on until Monday, but no,

I wouldn't quarrel with that. I can't be sure.

Mr. Sprague. Well, when you say this was the end of

the week, are you stating that it's your recollection that

this intercept was made on a Thursday or a Friday of a

particular week?

Mr. Phillips. It was my recollection that it was made

on one day and that on a -- I don't remember how many days

it was, and I don't remember the exact date that I saw it

the first time.

Mr. Sprague. All right.

Now, tell us the circumstances of your seeing the intercept

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transcript. How did it come to your attention?

Mr. Phillips. This was a matter which was largely of

interest to Mr. Manel because it pertained to a Soviet inter-

cept, but it was also of interest to people working on Cuban

matters because of the fact that Oswald wanted to go to the :

Soviet Union via Cuba. As I recall it, that was treated in the

normal way, then, of the information, the transcript being

routed to Mr. Manel and then later to me, or perhaps a copy

being routed to me, but in one way or another, that transcript

was brought to my attention because of the Cuban mention in it.

Mr. Sprague. Upon your seeing this transcript, what did

you do about it?

Mr. Phillips. When I first received it, I didn't do

anything about it at all because it was MI. -- it was the

responsibility of Mr. Manel or someone else under his urging to

take care of the matter.

Mr. Sprague. Do you recall whether or not there was

any notation by Mr. Scott on the transcript?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not. I suspect there

would have been, but I don't recall that there was.

Mr. Sprague. Do you recall whether there was any

indication about holding the tape here?

MI. Phillips. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Sprague. Did you make any determination to hold the

tape?

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Mx. Phillips. I did not, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Did you know when you saw that transcript

that this person who was identified as Oswald was possibly

an American citizen?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, I think so, because there was something

about a transcriber's note of he's speaking in very bad

Russian, or something like that, or sounds like an American

accent in Russian, or yes, I definitely had the understanding

he was an American citizen.

Mr. Sprague. Where did you get that from?

MI. Phillips. I don't recall. I don't recall whether

there was something in the body of it of whether it said a

man outside who sounds like an American is speaking. I don't

recall because it was -- I don't recall.

Mr. Sprague. Would there be notations attached to these

transcripts by the monitoring group?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, not attached to it, but in the

body of the manuscript itself, of the transcript itself, there

was sometimes indications.

MI. Sprague. You mean little scribbles?

Mr. Phillips. In parentheses. For example, in a case

where they were listening to a voice but didn't know who

it was on the voice, there would be a couple of letters like

MI, man inside,

an unidentified voice, to let you know. In

the cases where they did know, they would put down the name.

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Mr. Thone. Mr. Phillips, you said you had a discussion

with someone who said that Mr. Oswald talked in bad Russian or

so.

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With whom was that conversation?

MI. Phillips. No, sir. I recall that in this transcript,

in just the situation we are talking about now, there was a

statement by the transcriber, speaking in very bad Russian.

I saw it on the piece of paper itself.

SO

MI. Sprague. So just so we are clear here, then, the

transcript that you saw had

notations on that transcript by

someone in the CIA commenting, it was just, as was suggested

here, that it was bad Russian. There was somewhere an

indication that they spoke in English in some part, is that

correct?

Mr. Phillips. Certainly I remember the part about

speaking in bad Russian.

Mr. Sprague. You do have distinct recollection that on

this transcript there were notations, however, by some people

from the CIA.

Mr. Phillips. My recollection is certainly not distinct,

but I think what I recollect is typed along with all the rest

of the typed message, in parentheses, was the notation that

he was speaking in poor Russian.

MI. Sprague. There were comments added to the transcript,

that is what I am trying to find out.

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M. Phillips. Yes, sir: in the body of the transcript.

Mr. Sprague. All right.

Now, by the way, in that transcript that you saw, was there

any indication by Oswald that the things that the Soviet ought

to perhaps talk to him about was information that he had

from Washington, D. C.?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I don't recall that. I don't

recall that - any citing of an example, you should talk to

me about such and such. I don't recall that.

Mr. Sprague. Just that it would be to their advantage

to talk to him, or they ought to talk to him.

Mr. Phillips. Something like that but not because I

have information about a certain subject.

Mr. Sprague. Not anything as to his source of

information.

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, no, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Now, my question is then to you, dealing

with the transcript, it is your testimony that from that

transcript or the notations added to it, you ascertained

that this person Oswald was possibly an American.

Mr. Phillips. That is my best recollection. I am sure

that what happened, I don't recall the circumstances, in a

case like this, Mr. Manel would have walked into my office or

I would have walked into his, and he would say, what do you

think about this, and we together might have said, this

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is an American or come to the conclusion he was an American

for some reason or another, or it might have been Mr. Scott

calling the two of us and saying, what do you all think? I

am sure in this situation, there must have been a conversation.

These occurred frequently. I don't recall it.

Mr. Sprague. Well, when you say these occurred frequently,

were you picking up much in the way of taps from possible

Americans giving some indication that perhaps the Soviets

ought to be in contact with them to try to

get to cuba and

then to Russia?

Mr. Phillips. No,

sir, not to that degree. There were

a number of cases that were more -

: Mr. Sprague. Well, I am talking about that degree which

is what you have indicated was on that intercept. Is that

correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, but it was not rare or unique by

any means.

MI. Sprague. Well, is it enough of a situation to make

you feel that something ought to be done about this particular

intercept?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, definitely, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And what was to be done about that particu

lar intercept?

Mr. Phillips. Io find out if we knew anything about this

man. I don't know what steps Mr. Manel then took. I did

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not take the action, nor did anyone working for me, Mi. Manel.

Mr. Sprague. Did you remain interested in this, however?

Mr. Phillips. I remained interested I recall.

MI. Sprague. Why - well excuse me.

Go ahead.

MI. Phillips. I recall on at least one or two occasions

saying to MI. Manel, where is the cable.

Mr. Sprague. And when you say where is the cable, what

do you mean?

Mr. Phillips. The cable that in such an instance I would

expect to go to headquarters telling them about this.

Mr. Sprague. This

was at least important enough of an

intercept that you felt it was in the area of a cablegram

going to CIA headquarters in Washington, D. C., is that

correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Sprague. I take it that being because on the surface

here you have an American contacting foreign Soviet embassy?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Indicating he was trying to get out of the

country, with the other things that you have said, and at

that time it was against the law for Americans to go to

Cuba, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. That is correct, sir.

MI. Sprague. Why did you not make your decision at that

time to hold the tape with that narration of events that I

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have just gone through?

Mr. Phillips. It didn't occur to me that we would need.

a tape, having the information that we had.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know whether or not this tape of

this conversation has been destroyed?

Mr. Phillips. I do not, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Do you have any understanding that it has

been destroyed?

Mr. Phillips. My understanding is that it went with the

other tapes back to the outside unit and was reused.

Mr. Sprague. Now, do you know, since this was at least

in a situation of some importance, that it necessitated a

cablegram to CIA headquarters in Washington, D. C. -

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Whether somebody at least

gave an order to

hold the tape pending subsequent determination? Do you know

whether that occurred?

Mr. Phillips. I know of no order from anyone saying

hold it at any time.

Mr. Sprague. All right, now, who had the responsibility

for sending this cablegram to CIA headquarters in Washington,

D.C.?

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Mr. Phillips. Because it was identifiable, an identifiable

Soviet operation which produced the information, so it was

his responsibility.:

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Mr. Sprague. Now, do you know whether or not Mr. Manel

sent suoh a cablegram?

Mr. Phillips. He did send one.

Mr. Sprague. Was this enough on your mind, of enough

importance, that you made some inquiries whether a cablegram

had been sent?

Mr. Phillips. I did, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Would you tell the Subcommittee what was

occurring there and what you were doing since you thought of

it as of enough import to check that a cablegram was being

sent?

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Mr. Phillips. Mr. Manel was a busy man, sometimes

procrastinating. His wife was working for him, and on one

or two occasions I spoke to Mr. Manel kiddingly saying, hey,

where is the cable about this fellow, or something like that,

or maybe to his wife. I am not sure.

In any event, what happened was a few days passed and

Mrs. Manel prepared a message -- she was working for her

husband, and as I recall it, she typed it herself, bt I am

not positive on that point, but in any event, she prepared

the cable and took it in to MI. Manel, at which time he

signed off on it.

During that process, it did come to me, also to sign

off on, because it spoke about Cuban matters, and then went

to the Chief of Station and was released.

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Mr. Sprague. Now, as best ask you can recall since you

saw this cablegram, would you tell the members of the Subcom-

mittee what was the content of that cablegram?

Mr. Phillips. We need your information, want your --

maybe they used the word traces, but your information asking

Washington about a man named Lee Henry Oswald. It then

gave a physical description --

Mr. Sprague. Are you sure that in the cablegram you

sent, referring to, you had the middle name Henry? .

Mr. Phillips. That is certainly my best recollection.

Mr. Sprague. Okay, go ahead.

Mr. Phillips. Lee Henry Oswald, he's heavy set, gave

a physical description which did not fit Oswald, and said

this man is in touch with the Soviets. He wants a visa.

He

wants to go to the Soviet Union via Cuba and so forth, in

essence what had been learned from the first transcript, but

gave a physical description.

The physical description was of a photograph taken at

the Soviet embassy on or about the same time Mrs. Manel -- I

suppose I have to speculate, but I believe Mrs. Manel had

two pieces of information which she put together, which turned

out to be put together inaccurately. The first, the transcript

of a man calling and asking for a visa, the second, of a

man who appeared: to be an American at about the same time.

So

she put this one and one together and came up with an incorrect

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two.

So she was not giving the physical description of

Lee Harvey Oswald, but a man who did indeed

go to the Soviet

Union during this period, and he is the man that some people

now call the mysterious stranger. We never found out who

he was. He, in his physical appearance, he could have been

an American, he could have been a Soviet or Nordic from a

ship, but she put these two things together.

Mr. Sprague. Now, this was a pioture of a man entering

where?

Mr. Phillips. The Soviet embassy.

Mr. Sprague. Did you not have surveillance at that time

on the Cuban embassy?

Mr. Phillips. Which type of surveillance, sir, the

telephones?

Mr. Sprague. Personal observation.

Mr. Phillips. We had an observation post which took

photographs of the Cuban embassy, of people going in and out.

Mr. Sprague. Was not this intercept to which you have

been making reference a call by Oswald from the Cuban to the

Russian embassy?

MI. Phillips. Yes, sir, it was from the Cuban to the

Russian embassy, but as I recall, the tap was picked up on the

Russian end.

Mr. Sprague. I understand that, but with regard to that

first intercept, what was it that led you to believe that - I

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shouldn't say you because you had no part of it —- that the

picture of the person entering the Russian embassy was the

person who was

involved in that intercept since at that moment

Oswald had entered the Cuban embassy?

MI. Phillips. Well, I can only presume Mrs. Manel's

action. I believe what she was saying was she had put together--

here was a telephone call, and here was a picture of an

inidentified man, and she assumed that there had been a

conversation about a visa, and sure enough, off you

' go into

the Soviet embassy.

Mr. Sprague.

Were there any photographs of Oswald

entering the Cuban embassy?

MI. Phillips. There

were not.

Mr. Sprague. Was there any observation and recording of

people who entered the Cuban embassy, and a list which we

could examine and see the description of people that entered

the Cuban embassy at of about the time of this intercept?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, there was a photographic coverage

of the Cuban embassy, and this did not work on weekends, and

sometimes the camera had to be pulled out. The camera was

pulled out either because of malfunction or something. It

was not there on the day that that intercept indicated

Oswald was in the Cuban embassy, and consequently, there was

no picture of Lee Harvey Oswald that we ever saw in Mexico.

Mr. Sprague. Well, let me ask you this.

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When this intercept was picked up, this first one which

caused the action that you have said, was it also determined

to check on the sightings of people who entered the Cuban

embassy in order to get a description, perhaps, of this person?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, it was not.

MI. Sprague. Why was that not done, if you know?

Mr. Phillips. It was simply not a part of the priorities

in a case like this, to do it on that basis. The only time

we really looked for the pictures of Oswald was after the

assassination.

Mr. Sprague. But if in the cablegram that was being

sent to the CIA headguarters in Washington, D. C., you were

to get information back and you are given a description, and

you know the call that was

intercepted at the Russian

embassy end originated in the Cuban embassy, would it not

stand to reason for someone to check within your own CIA

agency who were observing what is going on at the Cuban

embassy, whether they have a description of this person?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, and the reason being that the

number of people who would be going into the Cuban consul

on any day might be anywhere fron 150 to 500.

Mr. Sprague. Well, what is the purpose of getting a

description of someone whom I assume a great number of people

went into the Russian embassy, when this call aid not originate

in the Russian embassy?

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Mr. Phillips. I am sorry, I didn't understand the last

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Mr. Sprague.

What is the purpose of getting a description

of an individual who entered the Russian embassy on that

date when the knowledge

was

that this call originated at the

Cuban embassy?

Mr. Phillips. I presume it was because Mrs. Manel simply

had before her a photograph of an unidentified man who looked

like an American, but I can only presume that.

Mr. Sprague. Does that make sense to you?

Mr. Phillips. It makes sense from the standpoint that it

was a logical conclusion that they might be the same person,

and this is a quick way to find out.

Mr. Sprague. But didn't you on this intercept know that

the call that you have intercepted came from a person who

entered the Cuban embassy, not the Russian embassy, is that

correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, and so her judgment would have been

based on the fact that presumably he then went - at one time

must have gone to the soviet embassy, and that is why she

thought it might be the same man.

Mr. Sprague. But not to even make an attempt to find out

from your own surveillance observation team who was entering

the Cuban embassy on that very day.

Mr. Phillips. That would have been a good thing to do.

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I don't recall that it was. It may have been, and sir, I

am sure you understand, I have to speculate about Mrs. Manel

and why I think she put it together.

Mr. Sprague. This cablegram that was then sent on to

washington, did that contain within it information that -- well,

did it have with it the intercept? Did it have a transcript

of the intercepted conversation?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, it was a cable which -- it was

not a repeat, as I recall it, word for word, of the

transcript, but a new message which said we need your

information on Lee Henry Oswald.

Mr. Sprague. Was there anything in that cablegram

indicating CIA -- to CIA headquarters in Washington that

this person Oswald was attempting to get a visa to go

to Cuba and then Russia?

Mr. Phillips. As I recall, that was in there, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Was there anything in this cablegram

indicating that he, Oswald, had at least in some manner

indicated that the Soviets might find it to their advantage

to talk to him?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recollect that at all, that it was

in the cable. I don't think it was.

Mr. Sprague. Do you have an explanation of why that

would not have been in there?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

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Mr. Sprague. Was there in this cablegram anything indi-

cating that Oswald was indicating to the Soviets that he

would like their aid or help or assistance in getting out

of the country?

Mr. Phillips. I don't think -- I don't recollect there

was anything of that kind in the cable, sir.

MI. Sprague. I am going to show you a document which

I will ask to be marked subsequently, but may I first ask

you if you can identify this document, which really has parts

of it excised, but can you identify that copy I have just

shown you?

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I believe this to be the copy of the

message I have been trying to describe.

Mr. Sprague.

May that, Mr. Chairman, be marked as Exhibit

No. I for the purpose of this hearing?

Mr. Preyer. Without objection, this will be marked

Exhibit I and entered into evidence in the testimony.

(The document referred to was

marked Phillips Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. Sprague. Now, reading from this copy which has

been excised in many parts, and which you have said appears

to be the cablegram to which you have made reference, it

reads: blank "1 October '63, American Mail", and then.

blank, "name: Lee Oswald." Then blank, "at" -- and I will

ask you to tell me what this is.

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Mr. Phillips.

Soviet Embassy, SovEmb.

Mr. Sprague.

S-o-vE-mb has

the meaning of Soviet

Embassy, and then you have on --

Mr. Phillips. 28.

Mr. Sprague. 28, and then we don't see what the next

word is, probably September would be the guess.

Mr. Phillips. S-e-p-t, I would guess.

Mr. Sprague. It then says, "then spoke with consul

whom he believed to be," and the name V-a-l-e-I-l-y, that is

the first name, V-l-a-d-i-m-i-p-o-v-i-t-c-h, and then some

other, either part of a name or some other word.

Is that correct?

MI. Phillips. Yes,

sir. It is a continuation of the

Russian name.

Mr. Sprague. And then it says "Subject asked Soviet" --

which I assume is Soviet

guard, "Ivan," and then

0-b-y-e-d-k-o-v-I-y blank, "if there anything new re telegram

to Washington," and then blank. "Thing received yet but

request had been sent."

Is that correct? Have I read it right?

Mr. Phillips. Unless -- nothing is cut off of "thing

received yet," but I don't know, "but reguest had been

sent. "

Mr. Sprague.

And then under that we have paragraph 2,

"Have photos.

Male, appears be American," then blank,

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"apparent age 35, athletic build," and I'm not sure what the

next word is.

Mr. Phillips. I can't either, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Unclear what the next word is, maybe

five

feet -

Mr. Phillips. That's just a mistake.

Mr. Sprague.

"receding hairline, balding top, wore

khakis sportshirt," and then I guess there is a place for

signatures.

Is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes,

sir.

Mr. Sprague. Have I read it right?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. I am curious, at least in what appears here

that is not -- there is not anything indicating that this

person was trying to get into Cuba or Russia, is there?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

MI. Sprague. Do you have any explanation as to why

that would be omitted since obviously an American attempting

to get into cuba, is just by that act alone violating

criminal laws, is he not, or was he not?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague.

Why would he be just even not putting that

information in?

Mr. Phillips. I don't know, sir.

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MI. Sprague. Does that kind of surprise you when you

see that at this point?

MI. Phillips. Yes, because I didn't recall it that way,

and it certainly surprises me that it didn't say Lee Henry

Oswald.

Mr. Sprague. Well, that is my next question to you.

When you say you did not recall it that way, what I have just

shown you and we have gone through it, as I have just said,

are you prepared to say that this in fact is the cablegram that

was sent to Washington, or is what you remember somewhat

different than what appears to be in what I have shown you

here?

And let me repeat, I do not want you giving testimony

just conforming to what you believe others say. We want

your own testimony.

Do you want me to repeat that question?

You have been telling us what the intercept was, you have

been telling us what clearly was part of a cablegram that

was sent to CIA headquarters

in Washington. I have shown

you what you have first said appeared to be the cablegram.

that you have been talking about, and I am asking you now does

this appear to be different than the cablegram that you

saw when it first passed your desk going from Manel back to

Scott?

Mr. Phillips. This is different from my recollection

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of it, that is, as I have put together my remembrances of the

cable, yes. There is no question about that.

Mr. Sprague. I assume that assuming what you have said

is correct, there certainly would have been no reason to --

in fact, there would have been every reason to mention that

this supposed American was trying to

get to Cuba and Russia,

wouldn't there?

Is that correct?

Mr. Phillips.

(Nods in the affirmative.)

Yes, sir, it seems that should be in there.

Mr. Sprague. All right, now, let me ask you this.

Regardless of what cablegram was sent to CIA headguarters

in Washington, do you know what date, do you know, not what you

have been told here, that the cablegram that you saw and

assented to was sent?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not. I have an approxi-

mation.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know approximately how long was it

after the first time you saw the intercept that you saw

the cablegram that was coming back across your desk for

transmission to Washington, approximately?

Mr. Phillips. Approximately three days, three or four

days, something like that.

Mr. Sprague. Now, I notice that in this cablegram, which

has been marked Exhibit 1, they refer to an intercept on

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28 September. You had said earlier that you thought you were

talking about an intercept that was the early part of

October, and I asked you would you quarrel with or disagree

if it was the latter part of September.

Would you quarrel with the fact that it may have been on

the 28th or even on the 27th of September?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I think it was on that date, on

an intercept of the 28th. I do not quarrel with that. I

think it was that tine.

Mr. Sprague. Could it have been the 27th, as a matter

of fact?

Mr. Phillips. My recollection was that Oswald arrived

on a Wednesday of a Thursday and visited the Cuban embassy

the next day. I thought it was Friday, perhaps, or Thursday.

I thought it was the 28th, but it certainly could have been

the 27th. I don't remember.

Mr. Sprague. All right, let me ask you this.

Upon obtaining the intercept initially, and whatever

the date was, and being struck that this is a matter of

some importance that would involve notifying Washington, was

a decision made to advise the FBI, at least there in Mexico,

sinee there was an indication here that you have an American

attempting to get some sort of contact with the Russians?

Mr. Phillips. My recollection is that there was.

Mr. Sprague.

And when?

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Mr. Phillips.

I do not remember, sir, whether it was

before the answer came to this cable - came from this cable,

in other words, whether they waited to get details to then

advise the FBI, or whether possibly there were two memos.

didn't see them.

Mr. Sprague. Who would be the decisionmaker about

notification to the FBI?

Mr. Phillips. In the case of an American, it would

automatically be Mr. Manel's. That was standard procedure,

that the FBI should know information about Americans. That

would be his responsibility.

Mr. Sprague. All right, then, stop right there.

If that was Mr. Manel's responsibility, automatically

when it involves, I guess, any American, what would be a

reason for Mr. Manel's holding up notification to the FBI

and even a more important case, when there is a decision

being made that this is of enough importance to notify

CIA headquarters in Washington.

Mr. Phillips. All right, sir.

For clarity I will try to divide the responsibility into

two parts. It was very clearly MI. Manel's responsibility to

get off this message to Washington and see that it was done

right in his shop. The second responsibility, to see that the

FBI should know, it still would have been his responsibility,

but a number of people might have actually prepared that little

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report.

I remember when I was talking with your staff last night

I was trying to recall the people who might do this, and I

had forgotten the reports officer, and if I recall correctly,

an assistant.

They sometimes had the instruction,

"advise the

FBI," and so forth.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know whether of not a copy of the

transcript in this case went to the reports officer, or was

this considered enough of an important matter, as you related,

sometimes the report officer was bypassed by Mr. Scott in

this and that category?

Mr. Phillips. No, it definitely was not.

Mr. Sprague. Now, do you know that this went to the

reports officer as well?

Mr. Phillips. I don't know. I know that this kind

of subject would routinely go to the reports officer, so it

is possible that that person participated in whatever memorandum

advised, and also the --

Mr. Sprague. Go ahead.

Mr. Phillips. Also the two American contract women that

I talked about that worked there, this was the sort of thing

that MI. Manel might say to one of them, would you please do

a little

thing for the Bureau, or something like that. So

any one of a number of people could actually have prepared

that, but Mi. Manel was the one that had to see that that

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message went out of his office.

Mr. Sprague. In any event, would there be more than a

three or so delay before notification or five day delay before

notification to the FBI?

Mr. Phillips. I think if you wanted to establish

what a station chief would consider as responsible, he would

say two days would be all right on a routine case.

He would

like to see it

go more rapidly, depending on what other work

went along. This was delayed longer than that.

Mr. Sprague. This was a little more than just a

routine case, was it not?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know what the reason was for a

delay longer than what would have been in the routine case?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Sprague. Did you take as part of, let's say, your

duties, to see that the FBI was promptly notified?

Mr. Phillips. In the sense that if I thought it hadn't

been done, I would certainly have said, even though this is

your case, what happened, and in a similar case of mine I

would do that, and it was routine in the case of an American.

Mr. Sprague. Well, when you were pushing about the

cablegram to Washington, D. C. and finally pushed -- when

Mrs. Manel did it, were you also pushing to see that the FBI

was notified?

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MI. Phillips. No, sir, I don't recall that I was.

Mr. Sprague.

Why not?

Mr. Phillips.

I don't know why I wasn't. Perhaps I

did and I just don't remember.

Mr. Sprague. Did a response come to whatever cablegram

was sent to CIA headquarters in Washington?

Mr. Phillips. To Mexico. Yes, sir, a response came.

Mr. Sprague.

And how long after the cablegram that you

had described was sent?

Mr. Phillips. I cannot recall.

Mr. Sprague. Do you have an approximation?

Mr. Phillips. Four or five days. That's a

guess.

Mr. Sprague. Did you see that response?

Mr. Phillips. Yes,

sir.

Mr. Sprague.

And would you tell the members of the

Subcommittee what was that response from Washington, as best

you can recall?

Mr. Phillips. The thrust of the message was something

like this. Your man that you asked about is Lee Harvey

Oswald. I believe it

said that he had been in the Soviet

Union and was married, and married to a Soviet woman, something

about the Navy, the Marines, he had been in the Marines,

but it was biographical business that identified him as Lee

Harvey Oswald. I just can't remember the details.

Mr. Sprague. What else do you remember about that?

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Did this response indicate that this person, that

they believed was the same person named Oswald, had been in

the United States Navy?

Mr. Phillips. I seem to recall that. No, I --

MI. Sprague. I jam asking you on the basis of what you

told me last night.

Mr. Phillips. U.S. Marines, I think the Navy advises,

something about the Navy.

Sir, may I make a parenthetical observation?

Mr. Sprague. Sure.

Mr. Phillips. You asked me last night in the subpoena

to bring any documents that I have and so forth. I have no

files or documents, but I do have the draft pages of a book

of mine which is going to be published shortly indicating

the deletions that the CIA asked for, which I did bring down

in response to the subpoena. It is about six or seven pages,

and it is a wrap-up of all of the things -- not all, but of

the things we have been talking about today.

As I recall then, in writing this some months ago - and

so I wanted you to know

that I do have it here.

Mr. Sprague. Okay, we will

get to that but what I am

asking you now is what is your recollection as to that cablegram

that CIA headquarters in Washington sent in response to whatever

cablegram was sent to them from Mexico?

Mx. Phillips. The name is Lee Harvey Oswald and he is

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married to a soviet, he has been in the Soviet Union, he was

in the U.S. Marines or in the Navy --

Mr. Sprague. Did it not also, according to what you

have said previously, indicate that he had defected to the

Soviet Union?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Sprague. What?

Mr. Phillips.

Of course I said that, and I think I

recall that.

MI. Sprague. And that is my question, is that part of

what was in that response, responding cablegram from CIA

headguarters

in Washington, D. C.?.

Mr. Phillips.

I think I remembered something like that,

yes, but I cannot be absolutely positive.. I realize that I

am saying that I don't remember what I said last night, but

I think it was there.

Mr. Preyer. All right, we will take a break.

We will take a ten minute break

The Committee will

stand in recess for ten minutes.

(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

Mr. Sprague. MI. Phillips, continuing after the

recess, I had been asking you about that responding cablegram

from CIA headquarters in Washington, D. C., and my question

was, did that response

from headquarters indicate that this

Lee Oswald, or whatever the middle name was that was there,

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had defected to the soviet Union and that he had married a

Russian woman.

Mr. Phillips. I am not positive that that is the case.

I cannot say that it is. That was my recollection, but it

may have been that I learned that at a later date, but I

recall it as sort of a message, definitively describing the

man so there was no question about who he was. But I just

cannot recall the details.

Mr. Sprague. Let me show you a document which I do not

believe is the response, responding cablegram, but maybe •

upon looking at it, it will refresh your recollection as to

what may have been in the responding cablegram from CIA

headquarters.

(The Witness inspected the document.)

Mr. Phillips. No, sir. This is a cable, a communication

sent by CIA headquarters in Washington to the Department of

State, the FBI, and the Department of the Navy. It is not

the response to Mexico City.

Mr. Sprague. I know that, and I said that was not the

responding cablegram. I just wanted you to look at that

and see if that helped refresh your recollection as to what

was in the responding cablegram that did come from Washington,

CIA headquarters.

Mr. Phillips. Yes. It makes me think that I am

correct in remembering that the one that finally did come

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mentioned for the first time I think to Mexico that he had

defected to the Soviet Union, and his wife was there and so

forth.

I recall that the one that went from CIA headquarters to

Mexico straightened the record about the name, rather than

the way it is here.

MI. Sprague. Before we continue with that, let me show

you another memorandum which I will request be marked Exhibit

2 and see if you can identify that. Forget any of the

notations on the side of it.

(The Witness inspected the document.)

Mr. Phillips. I am finding it a little difficult to

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read.

Mr. Sprague.

Can you identify that memorandum?

Mr. Phillips. It is an internal memorandum in the Mexico

City embassy which I gather, because it says for the ambassador,

so it was something prepared in CIA headguarters in Mexico

and sent to the ambassador and perhaps others. I do not

know.

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Mr. Sprague. Now, if I may, just reading this, this is

headed 16 October 1963, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. I didn't notice that, sir?

Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague.

Memorandum for, and then it is blank, the

ambassador, from, and then it is blank, but you indicate this

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is probably from CIA to the American ambassador in Mexico,

and then there is some wording, subject looks like Lee Oswald,

contact with the Soviet embassy, and then under that, ambassador

notified, and one, printed. The following information was

received, and

then blank space, on October 1, 1963, an

American male contacted the Soviet embassy and identified

himself as Lee Oswald. This office determined that Oswald

had been at the Soviet Embassy on 28 September 1963 and talked

with, and then a name, Valery, and then the rest of it,

Kostikov, a member of the Consular Section, in order to

learn if the Soviet Embassy had received a reply from

Washington accompanying his request.

We have no clarifying information with regard to this

request.

And let me just stop there.

Can you explain why the CIA, on the 16th of October,

1963, is advising the United States ambassador in Mexico

that they have no clarifying information on this request when,

according to you, the intercepted conversation spelled out a

number of other things?

Do you have any explanation as to that?

Mr. Phillips. If my recollection of the intercept is

correct, no, I have no explanation.

There is one thing I will note there, as a possibility

to explain something ambiguous. It was sometimes the

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custom, and Mr. Scott requested it, that when something like

this went on paper to another part of the embassy other than

the FBI office, specifically, the ambassador's office, that

the sources were fudged, in other words, they were rewritten,

so that the people in the ambassador's office, and I am

thinking particularly of an ambassador's aide, that Mr. Scott

didn't have complete confidence in, and these papers not only

go to the ambassadors but the secretaries, he would sometimes

have them rewritten to protect the source. So when they say

visited, it could mean really that he is referring to a

telephone thing and so forth:

But I do not know the answer to the first part of your

question.

Mr. Sprague. And the second part of this memorandum

says, headquarters has informed us that Oswald above is

probably identical with Lee Henry Oswald, born on 18 October

1959, in New Orleans, Louisiana, a former radar operator in

United States Marine Corps who defected to the Soviet

Union in October 1959. This office will advise you if

additional information on this is received.

Now, does that help refresh your recollection as to that

responding cablegram from Washington to CIA headquarters there?

MI. Phillips. It helps, and I believe what may have

appened is that this message, sent to agencies in the United

States, was sent, and an information copy was sent to Mexico

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City, and without waiting for the answers from the agencies

in the United States, someone in the CIA station went ahead

and sent out this memorandum based on this information copy.

Actually, this copy is asking information from U.S. agencies,

and it looks like someone may have gone ahead, taken material

out of there to prepare that.

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(The document referred to was

marked Phillips Exhibit No. 2.)

Mr. Sprague. All right, and just for the record, the

other document that I have had you look at, which I will ask

be marked for identification as Exhibit No. 3, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Preyer. Without objection, so ordered.

(The document referred to was

marked Phillips Exhibit No. 3.)

MI. Sprague. Has a heading and it appears to be from

CIA to Department of State, Federal Bureau of Investigation,

Department of Navy, headed Secret, Subject: Henry Oswald --

it says Lee Henry Oswald.

One, on 1 October 1963 a reliable and sensible source in

Mexico reported that an American male who identified himself

as Lee

• Oswald contacted the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City

inquiring whether the embassy had received any news concerning

a telegram which had been sent to Washington. The American

was described as approximately 35 years old with an athletic

build, about six feet tall, with a receding hairline.

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Two, it is believed that Oswald may be identical to

Lee Henry Oswald, born on 18 October 19 -- looks to be 39 here,

maybe this other one was '39 -- in New Orleans, Louisiana,

a former U.S. Marine who defected to the Soviet Union in

October 1959 and later made arrangements through the United

States embassy in Moscow to return to the United States with

his Russian-born wife, Marina, and it goes on with the name,

and their child.

Three, the information in paragraph 1 is being disseminated

to your representatives in Mexico City. Any further informa-

tion received on this subject will be furnished to you. This

information is being made available to the Immigration and

Naturalization Service.

Now, does that help refresh your recollection as to the

responding cablegram that you got from CIA headquarters in

Washington?

Mr. Phillips. It makes me believe, Counsellor, that I

recall a cablegram coming from Washington as a CIA cable

answering the cable when in fact I may recall this information

which came down in an information copy, or one way or the

other. I would still have thought that there would have been

a regular response following the answering of this.

Mr. Sprague. Well, if in fact there was no responding

cablegram, would you be surprised at that?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, I would.

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Mr. Sprague. Now, in any event, whether a responding

cablegram of the information in the document. I have just read

to you, it is correct, I gather, that at some point shortly

after the cablegram had been sent to Washington, that the

Mexico CIA operation now had advice that Oswald , the person

who perhaps was Oswald, had been in the service, had defected

to Russia, had come back to the United States, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips: Yes, sir.

Mt. Sprague. Now, with that additional information, plus

the fact of your having seen an intercept, that this American

was

saying what you said you saw in that transcript and had

been trying to get out of the country with whatever the

arrangements the Soviets would make to Cuba and to Russia, did

this now become a most unusual situation?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, it escalated the importance of

it.

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Mr. Sprague. All right, now, upon gathering that

information, what did the CIA -- what did you do? Let me

put it that way first.

Mr. Phillips. I did not do anything unusual such as

mounting a new technical operation or anything because of

this. I believe -

MI. Sprague. Well, was anything done right then and there

to find out where is Oswald?

Mr. Phillips. On the side,

as far as the Cuban embassy

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was concerned, as I recall it, we then tasked our agents what

do you know about a man named so and so with this and that

and the other, and asked

them if they knew about his visit

or something like that.

MI. Sprague. But you know something about him.

My question now is, having first had your suspicions

excited enough to send

a cablegram to Washington in a situation

that you say was somewhat unusual, you now reach the most

unusual, do you not, of finding out that this person who vas

trying to get to Cuba and

Russia and whatever places that you

said, turns out to have been a defector to Russia who was --

who had returned and come back to the United States.

Now, is that not unigue, really?

Mr. Phillips. It is.

Mr. Sprague. And was there not a thought then by CIA,

let's find out where is this man right now?

Mr. Phillips. Okay, sir.

I recall that any actions I took were simply routine

ones, and the reasons would be these. These, at this stage,

is an FBI operation.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know whether the FBI had been

notified at that point that this individual in the intercepted

phone call was alleged to have said the things that you have

told us appeared in that intercepted transcript?

Mr. Phillips. I do not, sir. I don't know that they

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were.

Mr. Sprague. If in fact the FBI had not been told

that this individual was doing other than just going to

contact the Russian embassy to inquire about a telegram from

washington and had not been told that he had been talking to

them about trying to

get to Cuba and to Russia, and talking

about it being worth their while in some way if they contact

him and that they ought to help him yet out, how would the

FBI then know of the uniqueness of the situation?

Mr. Phillips. They would not know, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Who would be responsible for seeing that

that information is given to the FBI?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. Manel's shop, but with the escalating

importance, that sort of responsibility would go right to the

Chief of Station as well.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know what Mr. Scott or the people

who were in line command, even, did upon getting this

information and tying this with that information in the

transcript?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I cannot recall.

My vague recollection; or perhaps I am remembering what

I think must have been, was that at some stage here we were

advised by the FBI or found out that Oswald had left the

country, but I do not recall, I do not know.

Mr. Sprague.

Well, while he was still in Mexico, would

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the CIA have wanted to find out his whereabouts and start

some sort of surveillance or check on him?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Did the CIA -- would the CIA lose interest

in the potential threat by this person just because he was

then no longer in Mexico?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, it would become someone else's

case if he had returned.

MI. Sprague. Well, whose obligation was it to make

sure that that someone else had all of the information that

now made this a unique case for the Mexican operation of CIA?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. Manel, MI. Scott, and myself as well.

Mr. Sprague. Did you?

Mr. Phillips. I did not. I don't want to say I did not.

I do not recall doing it.

Mr. Sprague. But MI. Phillips, I am sure that you would

have wracked your brain may times, and it seems to me you

obviously did not, and my question really gets back to why

not, and that perhaps gets back to an earlier question, to

some degree you have slithered around what are quotes of you

by people in the news media.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And you end up making a statement here

to this Subcommittee that, well, part of that statement was

what I learned then and what I learned subseguently, which

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in my view just does not make sense at all, and I am putting

to you really whether you are being totally candid with the

Subcommittee.

Mr. Phillips. I am trying to be totally candid. One

of my principal problems, Counsellor, is that since this

event took on such magnitude because of the assassination, these

things that we are talking about today I have heard in so

many varied forms on talk shows and magazine articles, and I

find it terribly difficult -

Mr. Sprague. MI. Phillips, you made statements to a man

from UPI, You made statements to a man from the Washington

Post. I can't speak for the Subcommittee, but I find it

inconceivable that in relating that statement to Mr. Gillmore

that you are relating that what you heard Oswald say is that

he had information that might be useful to the Soviets and

Cuba, and that he hoped to be provided with free transportation

to Russia via Cuba, that in summary, you were adding in there

information subsequent to the assassination? Do you think

that makes sense?

Mr. Phillips. Counsellor, I stand by what I said.

still recall that my perception of that first knowledge I

had of him. Perhaps to

some extent, based on the very fact that

he as seeking a visa was, here was a man who wanted to go to

the Soviet Union and was projecting himself with some importande

to try and get it.

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Mr. Sprague. By projecting himself with some importance,

you mean he was then indicating to them, he was tooting his

own horn, that he could be of some value to them. Is that

what you mean?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague.

Well, if that is what you mean, then say

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Mr. Phillips. All right, sir.

Mr. Sprague. I do not want to say it. It is you. Is

that what you mean?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. When you get this response from CIA

headquarters in Washington making this a unique situation

which would have called for surveillance of Oswald while he

was in Mexico, do you know what steps were taken to ascertain

whether or not he in fact was still in Mexico?

MI. Phillips. No, sir, I do not recall. I do not

recall why all of a sudden there was no action. The logical

reason would have been -- and I don't recall it -- was that

we found out he had returned to the United States. In that

case the interest would have been dropped, and that would have

been that.

Mr. Sprague. The interest by whom?

Mr. Phillips.

By the CIA.

Mr. Sprague. You mean the CIA would not have an interest

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in this American who was trying to offer things to the Soviets

and get out of the country through Cuba?

Mr. Phillips. Well, yes, certainly they would have an

interest. On the list of priorities that were tasked that would

go down in Mexico, at least certainly the step would have.

been taken that he would have been put on what was known as

the watch list so that if his name ever popped up again in

Mexico, somebody said this is the man --

Mr. Sprague. Did you ever have there in Mexico another

American citizen who you were aware of giving an implica-

tion, an offer of some information to the Soviets and wanted

to get to Cuba and Russia, who had been a defector to

Russia before?

Mr. Phillips. Not a package of this kind and a double

header of the Soviet Union. They were extremely unusual

cases.

Mr. Sprague. Did you ever have a case that had all of

those in it?

Mr. Phillips. No, not all of that combination.

Mr. Sprague. Why do you say this would have been a lesser

priority situation?

Mr. Phillips. Well, I meant, Counsellor, if he had

left Mexico, and when we learned that he was no longer in

Mexico, it would have become low priority while he was -- unless

he came back to Mexico, not necessarily to CIA headguarters

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should he show up elsewhere.

MI. Sprague. Well, of course, aren't you also assuming

in here that other agencies who had been notified had been

advised of the information that you say was on that intercepted

telephone call, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. I'm sorry, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Aren't you making an assumption that when

the CIA Mexico Division lets up because he has gone out of the

country, that other agencies of the Federal Government are

taking up their proper duties, but contingent upon them

having all of the information that the CIA had?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, I think that is an assumption

on my part.

MI. Sprague. And you say that was Manel's obligation,

to see that that information was given to the other

agencies?

Mr. Phillips. As you described, it was a case of

sufficient importance that it was MI. Manel's and Mr. Scott's

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the very best, it is not professional, at the best.

Mr. Sprague. How would you explain if in fact no

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other agency of government was advised that in this intercept

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Oswald had been attempting to -- had spoken of attempting to

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go to Cuba, to Russia, and was indicating that he had something

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to offer the soviets, and he wanted them to help him get out

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of the country, how do you explain if in fact that information

was not communicated to any other agency of government, how

do you explain that?

Mr. Phillips. I can't explain it, and I would call it a

grievous omission,

and the dimension of the gravity of it

depending

upon the motive for it.

Mr. Sprague.

well, I guess my question ends up, would

that just be an omission or would that be more likely a

decision by someone not to have that information in the context

of what I just said given to the other agencies of government?

Mr. Phillips. It is

possible that it could be an omission

in the sense of someone waiting to wrap up another package,

and they are going to produce a nice round report that they

could be proud of. He covered this man all the time, and

here are the stories. That is possible.

However, I tend to agree with your implication that

serious enough, it certainly could be somebody decided not

to do it for one reason or another, but of course, that is

an assumption.

MI. Sprague. Now, where would decisionmaking like that

come from, not to notify other agencies of the United States

government?

Mr. Phillips. I can tell you that precisely, sir,

Win Scott. No one else would dare make that decision without

Win Scott's knowing about it and approving it.

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Mr. Sprague. And would he do that strictly on his own?

Or would he discuss that with anyone in a superior position to

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Mr. Phillips. If he were to do that without some

logical explanation of why he was doing it, he wouldn't

discuss it with anyone, because if he were to do that, and to

let someone know that he wasn't getting this information out,

all sorts of things could - somebody just might go to the

IG, the Inspector General or something like that.

Mr. Sprague. Well, let me ask you this, and maybe this

gets back to the earlier part of the question.

These cablegrams that get routed from your Mexico

station, let's say even the one that Mrs. Manel prepared for

Mir. Manel, and then you saw, did they go immediately from

MI. Manel out for dissemination, for transmission? Dia they

go immediately from you? Did these always get routed from

each of you back to MI. Scott, and it is MI. Scott who then

sees that they are transmitted?

Mr. Phillips.. The final signature, the release, is

Mr. Scott's, and it goes directly from his office to the

Communications Section, and he is the last one.

MI. Sprague. And is the first time, in looking at that

excised copy that we have of what appeared to be a cablegram

to Washington, that you were aware that, assuming that that

is the one that was sent, that there appears to have been

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no notification of the

information that you say was in that

transcript?

Mr. Phillips. Well, I might qualify it by saying as of

yesterday and today it is the first indication that I have

had that this information might have been held back from other

agencies and from the Warren Commission. The possibility is a

surprise to me, yes.

Mr. Sprague.

Between it being an omission, when we

consider you, Mr. Manel, MI. Scott, and it being a deliberate

decision not to give this information, which is the more likely

in your opinion, from having worked there?

Mr. Phillips. In my opinion, sir, it is more likely

that it would have been an omission rather than an act of

that kind. That is my opinion.

Mr. Sprague. And why do you say that, because you think

the other is just too terrible to contemplate?

Mr. Phillips. That is certainly one thing, but the

main thing is, I wasn't aware of a similar action taken by

Mr. Scott or other people and I just -

Mr. Thone. MI. Phillips, for the recora, Mr. Scott

is deceased.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Thone. And when did he die?

Mr. Phillips. He resigned from CIA in Mexico where he

had been a long time, and he died in -- I have it written in

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Mr. Thone.

Approximately.

MI. Phillips. About 1970 or '71.

'71 or '72, after

the retirement, he stayed right in Mexico, had a heart attack

and died.

MI. Thone.

A heart attack.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. MI. Phillips, you said that there may be

one of two other intercepts after this intercept that you have

been discussing.

In any event, is the intercept that you have been

discussing the first intercept that you were aware of of

Oswald?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, I believe that to be true.

Mr. Sprague. Did you have any more information concerning

the first intercept, in the whole sequence of events that we

have gone through and the response from Washington, other than

what you have testified to now?

MI. Phillips. I'm sorry, sir, I didn't --

Mr. Sprague. Do you have any other information concerning

that first intercept other than what you have now testified

to before this Subcommittee?

MI. Phillips. I do not.

Mr. Sprague. And the last you had any knowledge about it

was upon the response from Washington.

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Is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. It is the last that I recall, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Let me see if there is anything else.

Do you know, of your knowledge, whether with regard to

that first intercept, the Immigration Department was notified?

Mr. Phillips.

About that first intercept, I don't know.

My recollection was that in the embassy in Mexico City, the

facts

were Oswald being there. I presume that must be Ithe

first intercept was sent out to the State Department, FBI and

Immigration and Naturalization, or at some time they were

advised, but --

Mx. Sprague. Was

the Secret Service advised at any time?

Mr. Phillips. Not to my knowledge, sir. First, one,

there is no Secret Service in Mexico.

Mr. Sprague. Now, with regard to each of the notifica-

tions of any agencies, you do not know, I take it, whether that

notification contained the information you have told us about.

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Sprague. All right, now, the second intercept,

what is it that you saw and recall about that, and how long

was that after the first, as best you can recall?

Mr. Phillips. Okay.

I believe that after the assassination, with the interest

that we were able to go back over the transcripts, that I

recall something about Sylvia Duran and some longer information

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about her conversation. In other words, I recall the

intercept, not just the shortie that was the first one, but

one that had more substance, about this guy is over here and

what about it

Mr. Sprague.

This is a conversation by Oswald?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, but it was about oswald.

Mr. Sprague. No, I am talking now about conversations

by Oswald, after the first intercept, which is a conversation

by Oswald. When is the next intercept of Oswald that you have

any recollection about?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall, sir. Like I said last

night, I am not absolutely positive. I have this feeling

there was another one or two, and I do not -- I cannot be

positive about that.

Mr. Sprague. What is your best resollection about this

other one or two as to what the content was, regardless whether

it is one or two?

Do you have any recollection?

MI. Phillips. A second query about whether his visa

has come? I don't remember, sir. I don't remember.

MI. Sprague. All right, now, do you recall any conversations

that were intercepted about Oswald?

First, yes of no?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. And how many do you recall?

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Mr. Phillips. If I can limit it to before the

assassination -

Mr. Sprague.

Well, I am only talking about before the

assassination.

Mr. Phillips. I believe I recall the one I am calling

the long one, Sylvia Duran.

Mr. Sprague. All right, that is one.

Do you recall any other intercepted conversations about

Oswald?

Mr. Phillips. No, I do not.

Mr. Sprague. All right.

In that conversation, can you tell us as best you can

recall when that was

intercepted, and you saw the

transcript in relationship to that first Oswald transcript

that you have been telling us about.

Mr. Phillips. My best recollection is that that was

there on the record, but what it was -- it didn't identify

Oswald, but somehow after the assassination, when we went

scrambling back through records, ah, that must be about

Oswald. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Sprague. In other words, you are saying the first

you are aware of that you can recall of this intercepted

transcript about Oswald, you first saw after the assassination.

MI. Phillips. That is what I recall, sir, yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. You have no recollection of seeing it

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prior to the assassination, or being marked for attention or

anything like that?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir. My recollection is that it was

afterwards.

Mr. Sprague. Let me back up one second, getting back

again.

After you got that response from Washington, from CIA

headquarters, the additional information about Oswald is a

defector, all of that, without repeating it, and recognizing

that the situation now is unique, did anyone then give an

order to save that tape?

Mr. Phillips. Not that I recall.

Mr. Sprague. I assume the tape, though, from what you

said earlier, must have been at least held up since you

were - and the destruction of the tape, since a tablegram

was going to Washington for information.

Mr. Phillps. That would not necessarily be true, and my

recollection is that it was not held up. Once the information

was taken off of it, it was once again sent back for reuse.

Mr. Sprague. Immediately? I thought you said earlier

that there was a period of time for the tape to be held for

the decisionmaking process

to at least work on whether to

keep the tape.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, but not in the office of the

decisionmakers in the embassy. The tape would return to the

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outside unit, as I understood it, and it was there that you

would say -- that the message would go eventually, hold the

tape.

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Mr. Sprague. When you saw this response from Washington,

did you think anything of let's get that tape?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Sprague. Did you discuss it with anybody?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Sprague. All right.

Getting back to this conversation about Oswald which you

do not recall seeing prior to the assassination, but, you got you

say, afterwards, do you recall when that intercept had occurred?

MI. Phillips. To preface the remark, after this whole

thing was over, I noted certain weaknesses in my performance,

one of then being, damn, why didn't I know more about this

before the assassination?

So I think what may have happened is I did indeed see

the transcript and didn't recognize that it pertained to the

other transcript. So it went back into the files. After

the assassination, let's look at everything, my goodness,

that's talking about Lee Harvey Oswald.

So it is quite possible that I saw it and didn't recognize

the value or the connection with Oswald because it was just

a case - well, that is possible.

My recollection is that it meant nothing to us until after

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the assassination.

Mr. Sprague. But my question still is, Mr. Phillips,

when you did see it after the assassination, do you have any

recollection now as to when that intercept had been made?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Sprague. In late September, early October '63?

Mr. Phillips. It would have had to have taken place

at the very end of September or early October, because Oswald

went back soon, but I don't remember which of those days it

was on.

Mr. Sprague. And can you summarize for us what was the

substance of that conversation about Oswald, and between what

parties was that conversation?

Mr. Phillips. Sylvia Duran, somebody in the Soviet

embassy.

Is that the firtt time I read about - I think it was -

obstreperous character over here, acted badly, had to call

the consul down, an explanation, he got mad when we told him

that we weren't

• going to get you a visa until the Soviets

did, something -- Sylvia Duran talking with someone. I am

not sure whether it was a Soviet, but that's the general kind

of thing, a description of Oswald and his actions toward

Sylvia Duran when he found out he wasn't going to get a

visa.

Mr. Sprague. Are you saying that if you had seen this

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transcript shortly after it had been made, that you would not

have connected that with the transcript of Oswald that you

have just told us about, if this Duran thing was again a

call from the Cuban embassy to the Russian embassy, it is

involving

someone wanting visas to Cuba and Russia, which is

the very thing -

Mr. Phillips. Well, I certainly would have,

so I think

that it must have been vague enough that I didn't note that

or didn't see it until after the assassination.

Mr. Sprague. Is there any other conversation concerning

Oswald that you are aware of?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I don't recall any other.

Mr. Sprague. At any time, was there an effort made to

go over with the surveillance team that was on the Cuban

embassy, not the Russian, as to who were the people observed

going into the Cuban embassy between September 28th and

October 3, 1963, that you know of, and you were there at least

at that station for another two years.

Mr. Phillips. You are speaking after the assassination

as well? Yes. The photographs, all the photographs that were

available from the coverage of the Cuban installation were

inspected by Mr. Shaw and by me. They were in long strips, and

we went over every single one, seeing if we could find a picture

of Oswald.

Mr. Sprague. But did you not also say that the camera

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did not work on occasions during that period of time.

Mr. Phillips. We knew -- how did this work, now?

We

knew that we wouldn't find a picture of him on the day of

the intercept. Nevertheless, we wanted to look back -- and

I think we looked back for 30 or 45 days.

Mr. Sprague. My question was, did anybody go over the

descriptions, what the surveillance team observed of people

entering into the Cuban embassy, and who, between September

27th and October 3, 1963?

MI. Phillips. No, sir. There would have been the -- there

was no team in there. It was just a place where the camera

was with an operator and so forth, and he would --

Mr. Sprague. But if the camera wasn't operating, isn't

there somebody making notations? I thought you said that

earlier?

Mr. Phillips. Everything before - later the camera,

as I recall, became and automatic model that worked, and then

there would be people taking down license plates and that sort

of thing, but there was no material available to indicate a

man looking like this walked in on this day. There was nothing

like that, and I believe the reason was that there was no

operative in there.

Now, certainly we looked for the other days to see if

there was anything. I remember, for instance, that we wrote

down every single license plate that was from the United States,

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thinking maybe this will be connected with Oswald, and that

sort of thing.

MI. Sprague. Do you know of a Russian agent named

Rosta, K-o-s-t-a?

Mr. Phillips.

I have heard of that name, but I don't

know what the case is.

Mr. Sprague. Did you ever in any of your CIA work

come across that name as a

Russian agent?

Mr. Phillips.

I don't recall it. It is familiar.

Mr. Sprague. What about the name Kostikov?

Mr. Phillips. No, I don't relate that to it.

Mir. Sprague. I have no further questions at this time,

Mr. Chairman.

I think Mr. Brooten may have some.

MI. PreyeI.

would you prefer to ask a few, Mr. Thone,

or shall Mr. Brooten?

Mr. Thone. I will be very brief. I think Mr. Sprague

has been very comprehensive.

Mr. Phillips, there is one link here that doesn't ring

true to this Nebraska

farm boy. Maybe I am just way off

base.

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Stop me if I don't recite this little part here -- it is

no big deal, but stop me if I am not correct factually.

The visit of Lee Harvey Oswald in your area there was

about eight weeks before the assassination. I think your

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best recollection was September 28th or something, but I

think there are some other indications that might have occurred

on the 27th, which I don't think is that important, and that

he was down there for four or five days. At the time, you had

the chief responsibility for the Cuban, what do you call it?

Mr. Phillips. Well, Cuban targets is what you call it.

Mr. Thone.

Cuban targets. And the testimony, I think,

is pretty extensive that in the intercept there, that he,

Mr. Oswald, talked about wanting to go to either Russia or

Cuba.

MI. Phillips. Uh-huh.

Mr. Thone. Not necessarily through Cuba to Russia.

Am I correct there, so far, that he might just want to

go to Cuba?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

There was the possibility that

he would go to Cuba and/or. In other words, I don't recall

anything that said I must go to Cuba in order to get to the

Soviet Union. I think maybe it was the Sylvia Duran conversa-

tion or something.

Mr. Thone. My point here only is this is your area of

responsibility.

Mr. Phillips. Uh-huh.

Mr. Thone. The thought that this person might only be

going to Cuba, so of course, you are real interested in it.

Mr. Phillips. Uh-huh.

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Mr. Thone. You responded to Mr. Sprague that until

yesterday, I assume that was from some of these articles or

so, you weren't aware of the fact that the Warren Commission

did not know about this particular intercept.

Mr. Phillips. That's true, sir, or at least if the

Warren Commission had not been advised that he wanted to

go to the Soviet Union and Cuba.

Am I correct, Counsellor?

Yes, I had always thought that they had been advised of

that. I presumed it because I didn't see the papers which went

from CIA to the Warren Commission, but I would presume that -

Mr. Thone. That is what stumbles this little mind of mine.

As close as you were to this particular incident, your area

of responsibility, a 25 year veteran in this whole area, and

as I understand, you had been in Cuba yourself some years

before this.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Thone. That you weren't aware that the Warren

Commission had not been advised of this intercept.

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I was not.

Mr. Thone. And that the Schweiker Committee was not

advised of it, that the Church Committee was not advised of

it, and that until now, this key intercept was not made

available by the CIA to any of these investigatory agencies,

or inquiries, I should say?

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Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I was not aware that it was not

passed to: them. I had certainly presumed and thought that it

was.

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My personal involvement with the Warren Commission was

limited to Mexico, where I believe there were four gentlemen

who came down to Mexico from the Warren Commission and they

talked to us about this, that and the other, and I find it

absolutely incredible to believe that we talked to those

gentlemen from the Warren Cormission and didn't tell them about

this information.

So the fact --

Mr. Thone. Well, it is my understanding from the newspaper

accounts -- and you can read lots of things in the newspapers,.

of course -- that you are now the President of the CIA Retired

Association. I assume you are still pretty loyal to that

organization.

Mr. Phillips. This is an organization composed of

intelligence officers from all services, but I still believe

that intelligence is necessary.

Mr. Thone. So does this Congressman.

I think a lot of

that agency.

But do you think your agency then has been candid with

these official inquiries after the discussion that you and I

have just had here?

Ms. Phillips. No, sir.

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Mr. Thone. And what would you attribute that to?

Mr. Phillips. I would have no explanation or justification

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for it.

Mr. Thone. I would like to pursue that some more. I

don't want to impose on the time of the other people here.

Maybe later on we can.

A couple of quick other things.

On this cablegram that Mr. Sprague showed you, and I

think is included as Exhibit 1, the original of that that you

said that you signed off on, where would that be?

MI. Phillips. At CIA headquarters there should still be

a copy always there.

Mr. Thone. Always.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Thone. With your initials on it.

Mr. Phillips. No, because the initials would of course

be only on the original copy in Mexico City.

Mr. Thone. That is the one I am getting to.

Mt. Phillips. But it would be transmitted, sir,

telegraphically, so Washington would have a telegraphic copy

which does not have initials put on in the field.

MI. Thone. But I am getting to that original work copy

prepared by Mrs. Manel.

Mr. Phillips. Uh-huh.

Mr. Thore. And you said you remember signing off on it.

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Where would that be?

Mr. Phillips. That should still be in Mexico if it

were not brought to the United States because of its importance

in this case, but it certainly should still exist, must

exist.

Mr. Thone. During the period that you had the surveillance

over the Cuban embassy, I understand you took pictures and

everything else, I understand that is pretty routine, were

photographs being taken at the same time of the Soviet embassy?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, yes, sir.

Mr. Thone. Maybe that is another inquiry or so.

Do you know whether of not the camera was working?

Mr. Phillips. It was working, sir.

Mr. Thone. The camera was working during the entire

period. You know that of your personal knowledge.

MI. Phillips. No, I don't know of my personal knowledge.

Mr. Thone. But you know that it was working, that

particular day that it wasn't working over at the other place,

the Cuba.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, and I base it on the fact that

that picture of that mysterious stranger, as I understand it,

was taken on the day of the intercept.

Mr. Thone. And it is also, as I understand it - correct

me if I am wrong here - that Mr. Oswald also visited the Russian

embassy during this period that he was down in Mexico City.

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Mr. Phillips. I do not recall, but I have heard since

many times that he made a physical visit to that embassy, but

I did not remember that.

Mr. Thone. Lastly, this - I have got a one track mind,

I

guess - you mentioned that MI. Miller of the CIA called

you yesterday and frankly, I am a little upset that the CIA

would talk about this technically or not under your secrecy

charge or so, because I think it is a chilling aspect to your

testimony, if nothing further.

You are a quality person. I am sure it would have no

effect on you. I am not sure that would be true of the

averagek person. You almost remembered the name of the

staffer he said he was going to call to talk to this about.

If I reviewed some here, would it refresh your memory?

Was it Mr. Akers, MI. Brooten?

Mr. Phillips. I am sorry, sir, that who was going to call

now?

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MI. Thone. MI. Miller suggested that he was going to

call somebody from this staff here and talk about this thing.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Thone.

Would it have been a Mr. Akers, MI. Brooten,

MI.

Mr. Sprague. Could we get responses, Mr. Thone, instead

of just shaking his head?

Mr. Thone..

Yes, if you would.

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Mr. Phillips. I don't recognize any of those as the names.

Mr. Thone. Caroline Hansen?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

MI. Thone. Jacqueline Hess?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

Mr. Thone. Joe Kiehl?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

Mr. Thone. Billie Gay Larson?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

Mr. Thone. Vivian McFerferson?

MI. Phillips. No, sir.

Mr. Thone. Patricia Orr?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir.

Sir, I don't believe he gave me a name. I think he

told me he was contacting, he was going to try to contact

someone on MI. Sprague's staff. He didn't say -

Mr. Thone. I thought you almost had the name on the

tip of your tongue.

Mr. Phillips. What I was thinking was, I have been talking

for the first time with someone on the staff, with Mr. Feeney.

MI. Thone. I remember that, butgI think you also

indicated that you knew the other name that he had in mind.

Mr. Phillips. Sir, I don't, and I don't believe he

mentioned the name, and I think he said I am trying to contact

someone on the staff. I don't believe he mentioned it.

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Mr. Thone. You are sure about that.

Mr. Phillips. If he did, it was a name that meant nothing

to me, and I just let it pass.

Mr. Thone. Would it have been a man or a female?

Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that it was either, sir.

That is why I am beginning to be quite sure that he said I

am trying to contact Mr. Sprague's staff now, or something

like that.

Mr. Thone. Thank you.

MI. Preyer. You mentioned the four members from the

Warren Commission came down to talk with you in Mexico after

the assassination.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Preyer. Did they talk with anyone else of the

station down there.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, they came and of course were

received by MI. Scott and those people, and they had most

of the talking, but then there was fanning out, and someone

would go to - one of the persons would talk to someone and

someone to someone else, yes, sir, they did talk to sort of

a cross section of people asking their questions.

Mr. Preyer. And you don't recall whether you told them

about the intercept or not?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, I don't. At that time I was

convinced, and up until today, it never occurred to me that this

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information was not passed on. I can't figure out why it

shouldn't be.

Mr. Preyer. Did you say anything to them about only

learning of Oswald's activities in Mexico after the assassi-

nation?

MI. Phillips. In the sense of from my own operations, yes.

Mr. Preyer. The newspaper article here implies the CIA

withheld the knowledge from the Warren Commission that it,

the CIA, had any knowledge about Oswald until after the fact

of the assassination.

Did you say anything to the Warren Commission people

along that line, in short, denying the intercept?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, because I know that we told

other people in the embassy before the assassination, asking

what I now see is the simple business, that we just know that

a man named Lee Oswald, but my recollection is after the

assassination, when I was talking with Clark Anderson, the

FBI Chief, and later, when we went to the Dominican Republic

and served together for over a year, and saw each other and

some rather interesting times, never was there anything from

Clark Anderson to me of gee, now that the Warren Commission

is - now that this is all over, you have never told us the

important thing. I never had any -- I saw him only a few

weeks ago, so this whole concept that this information was

withheld in anything other than omission is a little bit more

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than I can handle. I certainly can't explain it.

Mr. Preyer. Let me yield to Mr. Brooten now.

Mr. Sprague, you mentioned that you might want to ask

him about these documents that he brought with him.

Mr. Sprague. I was going to wait until the end of the

questioning.

Mr. Brooten. Mr. Phillips, if you don't understand any

question I ask, just tell me you don't understand it and I

will rephrase it, because we don't want any mistakes about

it.

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With respect to your, of prior to your taking over the

Cuban desk of the CIA station in Mexico, what prior official

involvement had you had with Cuba as an agent or a contractor

for the Central Intelligence

Agency?

Mr. Phillips. I served in Cuba in 1955 and '56 under

deep cover. That is, I pretended to be in business there. I

left Cuba and returned and served there from the middle of

1958 through '59 to '60, until I left in rather a hurry.

After Mexico I went to the Dominican Republic, and when I

went to the Dominican Republic, I became the Chief of Cuban

Operations in Washington.

Mr. Brooten. Now, prior to Mexico you had been in Cuba:

Where had you been, specifically, in Cuba?

Mr. Phillips. In Havana in both locations.

Mr. Brooten. And what specifically were your duties?

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Mr. Phillips. I was on the outside, and I was involved

in what was, until I became -- until I went inside to the

official cover, as a propaganda specialist.

Mr. Brooten. Now, you testified, I believe, that you

had certain wire intercepts to the Cuban consulate and

Cuban embassy, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. Wire intercepts.

MI. Brooten. Wire, telephone intercepts.

Mr. Phillips. Yes.. We are speaking in Mexico City.

Mr. Brooten. Yes.

Did they monitor both incoming and outgoing telephone

calls?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Brooten. Did the Soviet wiretaps monitor both

incoming and outgoing telephone calls?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, they did.

MI. Brooten. With respect to this specific transcript,

would there not have been two transcripts, then, one a call

going out of the Cuban embassy, and one, a call coming into

the Soviet embassy?

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Mr. Phillips. As I recall, there was one transcript, an

incoming telephone call, and then on the same sheet of paper,

outgoing telephone calls. I don't recall that there were

two, one for outgoing and one for incoming.

Mr. Brooten.

Well, if you had a tap on all incoming

calls and all outgoing calls for both places, why didn't

you have two transcripts?

Mr. Phillips. Because it was on a single line. You

don't tap inside the Embassy; you tap outside the Embassy,

and so you are literally on the line, and you've got what's

coming both ways.

Mr. Brooten. But if a call went out of the Cuban Embassy

to Point A, you would have that call intercepted, would you

not?

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Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. And if the call came into the Cuban Embassy

from anywhere else, you would have that call intercepted,

would you not?

Mr. Phillips.

Yes, sir, if it was one of those phones

that was tapped.

Mr. Brooten. All right.

Now, here you have a situation in which you have a call

being placed from one tapped phone to another tapped phone,

and my question is why --

Mr. Phillips. In that case there would be two intercepts

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if it went to another telephone.

Mr. Brooten. And there should be transcripts of the

two intercepts?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. And if there were two intercepts,

and your

responsibility was for the Cuban intercept, why then did you

not receive and have primary responsibility for that?

Mr. Phillips. Because it was translated from the

Russian, thus putting it into the Soviet area.

Mr. Brooten. All right, sir.

You stated that one of your duties was to know or you

had a priority, and you testified in response to Mr. Sprague's

question that you wanted to know who the intelligence agents

were, the diplomats and then went on down to the consulars,

you set up a protocol for that, is that right?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. All right.

As part of your duties, was it part of your responsibility)

to know who the Cuban intelligence agents were?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. And with respect to Mr. Manel, was it his

responsibility to know who the Soviet intelligence agents were?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. And did you know who the Cuban intelligence

agents were?

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Mr. Phillips. Yes. I think our score was probably

90 percent.

Mr. Brooten. All right, sir.

In addition to the wiretaps going both in and out of

the Cuban Embassy, in addition to the photographic surveillance

that you related, how many cameras were there surveilling the

Cuban Embassy and the Cuban Consulate offices?

Mr. Phillips. I never visited this outside installation,

but I recall that there were at least two going at the same

time on some occasions, the Consulate and the Chancery, the

main building, and I believe at one time there might have been

as many as three, but I'm not positive about that.

Mr. Brooten. All right.

Mr. Phillips. But ideally at least the two, the two

places to cover the two entrances.

Mr. Brooten. On September the 27th and 28th, 1963, do

you have any personal knowledge of how many cameras were

surveilling the Cuban Embassy and Consulate in Mexico City?

Mr. Phillips. I know that one was not surveilling the

Cuban Consulate, and to the best of my recollection one was

still working - no, Saturday -- no, to the best of my

recollection, one was working that day on the Chancery, but

I'm not positive.

Mr. Brooten. All right.

Mr. Phillips. I'm not positive perhaps because the other

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camera had been pulled out -- I don't know.

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Mr. Brooten. Now, do you know, of your own personal

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knowledge, that the camera was not working, or did you arrive

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at the conclusion thät the camera was not working because you

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did not find pictures for that day?

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Mr. Phillips. We arrived at that because when we said

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where are the pictures, there was a -- there was some -- there

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was a technician who was responsible for things like that, and

said why wasn't it working; well, it was malfunctioning, I

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had to pull it out or something like that. He said it was

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Mr. Brooten. Now, you stated that George Monroe was in

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charge of the intercepts.

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Mr. Phillips. As I recall, he was the"outside man" who

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was in charge, yes.

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Mr. Brooten. How

long had George Monroe worked for the

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Mr. Phillips. Not too long, because he had retired from

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the FBI in Mexico, so three or four years.

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Mr. Brooten. Do you know where George Monroe is now?

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Mr. Phillips. The last I heard, he was in Mexico.

Mr. Brooten. Did you also testify that it was George

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certainly he is the

one they would go to.

Not knowing the operation, it's possible he left it in

charge of one of the Mexican nationals and they decided.

But

if there was one of any real importance, certainly it would

be George Monroe and they would await his decision.

Mr. Brooten. All right, sir.

Now, in addition to the telephone interceptions and in

addition to the photographing surveillance, did you have any

other types of surveillance inside, any operatives inside the

Cuban Embassy in September of 1963?

(Pause.)

Mr. Phillips. Yes, we had two.

Mr. Brooten. What

areas did they work?

Mr. Phillips. One in the administrative area and one in

the diplomatic.

Mr. Brooten. All right.

To whom did they report?

Mr. Phillips. To Bob Shaw.

Either directly or indirectly.

Mr. Brooten. And Mr. Shaw worked for you?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. Can you identify those people?

Mr. Phillips. Counsellor, may I ask if -- it's the hardest

thing in the world to ask an ex-intelligence officer is to

identify people who really, in the Mexican climate, might have

a terribly difficult time if their identities were known.

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you feel, gentlemen, that --

Mr. Sprague. Are they still on duty in this assignment?

Mr. Phillips.. I don't know, sir.

Mr. Sprague.

Well, I am willing, at the moment, to pass

that question up, and if we need it we can get back to that.

Mr. Preyer. I think that would be the wise way to

handle it, since Mr. Phillips would remain under subpoena.

Mr. Phillips. Thank you.

Mr: Brooten. Now, Mr. Phillips, you stated you had

conversations with Mr. Waller, the Inspector General of the

Central Intelligence Agency, yesterday, November the 26th,

1976?

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Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. Did you record those telephone conversations?

Mr. Phillips. I did not, sir.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know whether Mr. Waller or anyone

at the Central Intelligence Agency recorded those telephone

conversations?

Mr. Phillips. I do not, sir.

Mr.

Brooten. Now, you also stated that he said that

Mr. Miller, Lyle Miller, the Legislative Counsel, cautioned

you about technical violations of your security agreement, is

that correct?

Mr. Phillips. No, sir, that is not completely accurate.

He advised me that I was right, except from the technical

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standpoint, I believe that is the way he said it.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know what the sanctions are for

violation of that security agreement?

Mr. Phillips. As I understand it, there are no enforcable

laws.

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Mr. Brooten. Now, with respect to Herbert Manel and

Barbara Manel, you stated that she had a previous background

in Soviet work.

Do you know what her prior posts were?

Mr. Phillips. No, I do not.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know what Mr. Manel's prior posts

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Caracas, Venezuela at a later date, but that was subsequently.

Mr. Brooten. Do they have a background in Soviet

intelligence?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, they did.

Mr. Brooten. Did Mrs. Manel ever tell you that she had

any contact, either directly or indirectly with Marina

Prusakova, the wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, while they were in

the Soviet Union?

Mr. Phillips. No, she dia not.

Mr. Brooten. Did her husband ever tell you that?

Mr. Phillips. No, he did not.

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Mr. Brooten. Do you know whether either Mr. or Mrs.

Manel had any contact, either directly or indirectly, with

either Lee Harvey Oswald or his Russian wife prior to their

entry to the United States?

Mr. Phillips. No, I do not.

Mr. Brooten. You stated that Robert Shaw worked for you -

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. - at that time.

That Joseph Picolo worked for you and he was replaced

by Raymond Swider.

Do you know the whereabouts today of Robert Shaw?

Mr. Phillips. He was in the Washington area the last I

Mr. Brooten. Is he still with the Central Intelligence

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know the whereabouts of Raymond

Mr. Phillips. He is in Washington at the Washington

Mr. Brooten.. Do you know the whereabouts of Joseph

Mr. Phillips. I do not.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know the whereabouts of Warren Dea?

Mr. Phillips. He has retired from the CIA and lives in

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the Washington area.

MI. Brooten. Do you know the whereabouts of Allen White?

Mr. Phillips. He is retired from the CIA and lives in the

Washington area.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know the whereabouts of Herbert and

Barbara Manel?

Mr. Phillips. No.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know whether or not they are still

in the Central Intelligence Agency?

Mr. Phillips. I believe that they still are. I heard

that he was talking about retirement, but I believe that they

still are.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know the whereabouts of Ann Goodpastute?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

She is retired and living in Dallas,

Texas.

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Mr. Brooten. Now, you stated that the information was

circulated to the local FBI agent:

Who was that person?

Mr. Phillips. Mr. Clark Anderson.

Mr. Brooten.

Was Mr. Clark Anderson a Legal Attache at

the American Embassy at that time?

Mr. Phillips. He was.

Mr. Brooten. You stated he worked with you in the Dominican

Republic in 1965, is that correct?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

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MI. Brooten. And that he did not mention to you that you

had withheld any information from him?

Mr. Phillips. No. Of course, if it had been successful,

he wouldn't have known that it would have been withheld.

Mr. Brooten. That's my point.

Mr. Phillips. Also, it's inconceivable to me that we

didn't talk about Oswald, but it's possible.

Mr. Brooten. Do you know his whereabouts today?

Mr. Phillips. Yes.

He's retired in San Antonio, Texas.

Mr. Brooten. And when did you last see him?

Mr. Phillips. Oh, two and a half months ago, two months

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Mr. Brooten.

Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions

at this time.

Mr. Preyer. All right, Mr. Brooten.

Mr. Sprague.

Mr. Sprague. Mr. Phillips, you mentioned that you had a

document with you, and I think the question has to be asked

since we only learned last night that apparently you were

working on a book, a question obviously arises when people

are

working on books, whether they are attempting to do something

to get themselves in the public limelight to aid in the

sale of that book. So there are a couple of questions I would

like to ask you if I may.

Mr. Thone. I think it's most appropriate.

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Mr. Preyer. Sure.

Mr. Sprague. You have the transcript of that portion of

the book with you that refers to the area we have been talking

about.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Would you be willing to turn that over to

us so that we can examine it? We will not at this time delay

this hearing. If we decide to put it in the record, we will

put it in the record and we will get it back to you.

Is that all right with you?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

In addition, I have the deletions as requested by the

CIA when the book was cleared.

Mr. Sprague. Now, that is the question I wanted to

start asking.

Now, this book that you are talking about, can you

just describe in general what it encompasses?

Mr. Phillips. Well, it is a chronological and geographical

story of 25 years of my intelligence career.

MI. Sprague. And when did you commence writing this

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Mr. Phillips. In June of 1975.

MI. Sprague. Have you ever written any books previous

to that?

Mr. Phillips. I haven't written any books, though I

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have written a number of plays, stories.

Mr. Sprague. Is this book now completed?

Mr. Phillips. It has been completed for some : time,

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Mr. Sprague. And do you have a publisher for it?

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. It is being actually printed now.

Mr. Sprague. When did you submit this to the CIA for

apparently clearance?

MI. Phillips. I submitted some of the chapters very

early. I wanted to send two chapters and an outline to

New York so that the publishers could decide whether they

wanted the book.

So there is a total of ten chapters, and

I sent two, and then three, and then it was finally only

cleared about three months ago.

Mr. Sprague. When was it that you commenced your inter

views with Mr. Kessler of the Washington Post?

Mr. Phillips. About a month ago.

Mr. Sprague. What initiated those contacts that gave

rise to the story?

Mr. Phillips. He called me.

Mr. Sprague. Do you know how that came about at all?

Mr. Phillips. I don't know. I can surmise that perhaps

he saw me on a television show or was aware - I give

lectures around the country frequently, and there is often

newspaper publicity.

Some of that may have reached him.

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But I can only surmise.

MI. Sprague. With regard to the book, when you commenced

this book, was it part of your artangements to get CIA

clearance on the book?

Mr. Phillips. Well, I didn't say anything to them and

it never occurred to me that I wouldn't. I planned to do

it.

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Mr. Sprague.

We will look at those chapters.

I take it that the CIA, going through your book, asked

you to excise certain parts of it.

Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sprague. Which you then did, and you have for us

those things that they have requested you to excise.

Mr. Phillips. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Sprague. You know, the question does arise as to

whether of not it is some advantage to you to be getting the

kind of publicity that emanates by this kind of story appearing

in the Post and media out there.

Now, could you give me some comments about the sort of

change in terms of the comments to the media and what you

say here. Has this thing somewhat for your part been thought

of for purposes

of the advantage to you?

MI. Phillips. I was formerly an actor before I was a

playwright, and there is no question that I have some sense

of publicity. Having sold this book, I obviously want it to

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be successful, one reason being that I have five more kids

to send through college.

So there is no question that I am

looking for an opportunity to get publicity, which will help

with the book.

There is absolutely no question,

at the same time, that

I wish that this publicity would not be a part of it. The

inference that can be drawn by some readers that I might

have played a role in a coverup of the murder of one of my

Presidents disturbs me a great deal, and my children. So I

assure you that this publicity was spontaneous and unwelcome.

Mr. Sprague. I assume we are about to adjourn shortly.

You understand that testimony in executive session is not to

be discussed anywhere.

Mr. Phillips. I do understand, sir.

Mr. Sprague. There can be no direction to you not to

discuss whatever you want to, however, with others, the

news media, with friends and others, but I would like to make

the reguest - it is not official from the Committee -- that

while we are investigating this matter, and hopefully at some

point promptly we can have an appropriate public hearing, I

reguest you not to discuss anything with anybody.

I also request, Mr. Chairman, that this witness remain

under subpoena until further call of the Subcommittee.

MI. Preyer. Yes, Mr. Sprague, the Chairman agrees with

your request of the witness, and will repeat that as coming

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from the Committee, and I take it that Mr. Thone agrees with

me on this, that matters discussed in Executive Session should

not be discussed.

And you will consider yourself as remaining under the

subpoena until further notice.

Is there anything further that we need?

I want to thank you, Mr. Phillips, and I thank all of you

members of the staff, working well beyond their lunch hour

on a Saturday, which I hope the record would duly note.

The Committee stands adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 1:52 o'clock p.m., the Subcommittee

recessed subject to the call of the Chair.)

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