Originator: HSCA
From: [RESTRICTED]
Document date: 11/20/1978
Document type: TRANSCRIPT

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180-10110-10028

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11/20/1978

86

CIA, METHODOLOGY

[Restricted]

(Restricted]

MEXICO

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Declassified

RESTRICTIONS: 1A; 1B

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 02/01/2003

OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

Notes, two duplicates included. Continues into next folder. Box 9.

v9.1

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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

Washington, o. C.

Monday, November

20, 1978

Deposition of

ANN GOODPASTURE

called for examination by counsel for the subcommittee on the

Assassination of John F. Kennedy, pursuant to notice, in the

offices of the select committee on Assassinations, House

Annex No. 2, Second and D Streets, S.W., Washington, D.C.,

beginning at ten o'clock a.m., before Annabelle Short, a

Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, when were

present on

behalf of the

respective parties:

For the Subcommittee:

Michael Goldsmith, Attorney

Edwin juan Lopez Soto, Researcher

Dan Hardway, Researcher

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House of Representatives

Select Committee on Assassinations

subcommittee on the Assassination

of John F. Kennedy

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Deposition of. Ann Goodpasture

Washington, D.C.

November 20, 1978

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Mr. Goldsmith: Would you swear the witness.

Whereupon,

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ANN GOODPASTURE

was. called for examination by counsel for the subcommittee and

having been

first duly sworn by the Notary Public, was ex-

amined and

testified as follows:

Mr. Goldsmith: Miss

Goodpasture, I am going to state for

the record that this is continuation of a hearing that was con-

ducted on April 13, 1978. We are taking testimony today in the

form of a deposition instead of at a formal Congressional

hearing.

My name is Michael Goldsmith and pursuant to the House

Resolution 222, I am

authorized to take your statement under

oath today.

Before 1 take your statement concerning the various

questions the committee

has of you, let me take care of some

procedural matters.

Are you hear voluntarily today and without a subpoena?

Miss Goodpasture: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: Have you received a copy of the com-

mittee Rules

and supporting

resolutions?

Miss Goodpasture: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: Have you had a chance to read Rule

Number 4?

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Miss Goodpasture: Let me check it. I looked

over this

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quickly.

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: Do you understand Rule Number 4?

Miss Goodpasture: I think so.

Mr. Goldsmith: Do you understand that you have

a right

tO

counsel?

Miss Goodpasture:

Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: Do you waive that right today?

Miss Goodpasture: I don't think so.

Mr. Goldsmith: By waiving that right, I mean, do you give

up your right to have a counsel present at this hearing today?

Miss Goodpasture: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: So you don't want an attorney here today,

do you?

Miss Goodpasture: I do not have an attorney.

Mr. Goldsmith: The question

is: Do you want an attorney

here

today?

Miss Goodpasture: No.

Mr. Goldsmith: Fine:

If at any point you should want an attorney present, if

you would just tell us that and we would stop the deposition.

Do you understand that?

Miss Goodpasture: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: Now, under the Committee Rules you have

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right to receive a copy of the statement that you give us

at a deposition.

I am going to ask you to give up that right

to

receive a copy of your statement and let me explain to you

why. If you were appearing before the committee at Executive

Session as you did in April, the committee Rules do not pro-

vide for you to receive actually in your possession the trans-

cript from the hearings. As

a matter of convenience to you

and also because of the committee's relationship with the

agency, we are taking this statement in the form of a depo-

sition.

The agency has requested us to ask its present and former

employees to give up the right that they have under the com-

mittee Rules to receive a copy of the transcript because there

was classified information in the transcript, and for you to

have the transcript in your personal

possession would be

contrary to security interests.

Now, I want to make it very clear though that even

though we are asking you to give up your right to receive

copy of the transcript, you are not giving up your right to

get access to the transcript. In other words, you have the

right to read it and we can arrange for that at any time.

We

are simply asking you to give up your right to receive a

copy of it. Do you understand that?

Miss Goodpasture: Yes.

May I ask you something?

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Mr. Goldsmith: Certainly.

Miss Goodpasture: Can the agency receive a copy of the

transcript, the Inspector General's office, so that they

would know in case I make a statement which

is not true based

on faulty memory. If there is no objection to the committee,

I would like for some responsible person

in the agency to

know what my testimony is so that they could check to see

whether my memory is faulty.

Mr. Goldsmith: I understand.

Miss Goodpasture: But I don't know.. I just wanted to

raise that question.

Mr. Goldsmith: The Committee Rules do not provide for

the witness' testimony to be made available to a third per-

son such as the agency. The agency, if it is interested

in

receiving a copy of your testimony, would ask the committee

and the committee would then take a vote on whether or not

your

testimony should be released.

Now, by you indicating on the record that you prefer for

the agency to have access to the material, the benefactor would

have an effect on the committee's vote.

I should

also add that if the Committee ultimately de-

pends to some extent upon your testimony and uses that testi-

mony to make a finding of fact, we would as a matter of

routine tell the agency in advance and if the agency has a

problem with that, they can get back to us.

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Miss Goodpasture: I am just concerned that some of my

testimony may be in conflict with records.

Mr. Goldsmith: I understand.

Miss Goodpasture: Through faulty memory.

Mr. Goldsmith: In any event, do you give up your right

to

receive a copy of the transcript?

Miss Goodpasture: I don't need a copy.

Mr. Goldsmith: And you understand that you have the

fright to have access to it.

Miss Goodpasture: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: Good.

I am also going to state for the record that the re-

porter is now being requested to provide a certification of

the

transcript certifying it to be an accurate and true

transcription of the record that we make

here today.

Finally, have you had a chance to review the letter

dated 23 March 1978 from Acting Director Frank C. Carlucci

to

the Chairman of this Committee?

Miss Goodpasture: Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: Do you understand that letter?

Miss Goodpasture:

yes.

Mr. Goldsmith: That is the same letter that you were

shown in April, is that correct?

Miss Goodpasture: I thought the one I saw in April was

25

signed by Turner.

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Mr. Goldsmith: No, this is the same one.

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Miss Goodpasture: The same one.

3

Mr. Goldsmith: In any event, do you understand that this

letter authorizes you to testify fully and truthfully before

5

this committee to matters relevant to the committee's mandate?

Miss Goodpasture: Within the provisions of this House

7

Resolution 222.

8

Mr. Goldsmith: Yes. Anything that is relevant to the

9

¿Committee's mandate you would be required to testify about

10

truthfully and accurately. Do you understand that?

11

Miss Goodpasture:

yes.

12

Mr. Goldsmith: Let me indicate for the record that this

13

corresponds with JFK Exhibit Number 34 that was used

at the

14

hearing of April 13, 1978.

15

Fine.

16

EXAMINATION

17

By Mr. Goldsmith:

18

Miss Goodpasture, who was the chief of station in

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Mexico City in 1963?

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A. Winston M. Scott.

21

Q. Did you have any special working relationship with

22

Scott while you were stationed in Mexico City?

23

A Yes.

24

Q

In what way was your relationship a special work-

25

ing relationship?

Mr

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Well, I was responsible for the day-to-day handling

projects that Mr. Scott had the major decisions on and

lone of those projects was the liaison operations, the one

4

that is of interest in this investigation.

Q

Which liaison project are you referring to?

6

A

The telephone tapping operation.

Q

Did people in the Mexico City station and in head-

8

quarters, especially those in Mexico City, consider you to

9

¿be win scott's right-hand person?.

10

A

Well, now I cannot really answer that and I don't

11

think that there would have been any reason for anyone to have

12

considered me as his deputy, which would be the right-hand

13

person because he had a deputy then. I had been in Mexico

14

longer

than anyone else in

the station except Mr. Scott and

15

for that reason, a lot of the people came to me and asked me

16

questions

about

things that had happened rather than going

17

to

the files and looking up the answer. I don't know

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how they looked upon my job there.

19

20

in

I saw a memorandum in the files written by Mr. Shaw

which he referred to me as "Win Scott's secretary who has

21

been down there for a long time," but I never had that posi-

22

tion.

23

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f

Now, as you know, Miss Goodpasture, the Committee's

investigation has focused in Mexico City in many ways and in

particular on the operations and workings of the Mexico City

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station.

Let me ask you this: What was Mr. Scott's reputation

for professional competence, integrity and honesty?

I•

Well, reputation. To me, I felt that he was honest.

had no reason to ever believe that he was dishonest.

I

think he had a PhD. in history. He had extensive government

service before he was sent there. He was assigned by the

Director, Mr. Dulles, at the time, over a number of people who

had been in Latin America in posts that they thought would

leave that chief of station assignment, so there was no

reason for me to ever doubt that he was highly qualified, in

my opinion. Now, I cannot speak. for how other people felt

about him.

Q: : In your personal working relationship with him, did

you find him to be a very competent and honest man?

A. Yes. The ambassador called on him almost every

day. I think we went through five ambassadors during the time

that I was there and his relationship with all of them was

the same.

In 1963, was the Mexico City station the largest

station

in Latin

America?

A I think Panama may have been the largest in size

but I believe Mexico City had the largest number of indepen-

dent operations.

Outside of Panama,. I think it may have been

the largest station but Panama had the most people.

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A I think so. I don't know how headquarters per-

sonnel considered it but in my opinion, it was.

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Q

When did Mr. Scott retire, approximately?

6.

A

I came home in 1968 and I think that he retired

in

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June, 1969.

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Do you know why he retired?

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A It was my understanding that he retired because he

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had

been asked

to stay in Mexico until December, 1970. He had

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asked me to stay in Mexico until December, 1970 because I had

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been there for a long period of time and it was easier to keep

13

someone there than it was to break in a new person. At that

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time, the President was Diaz Ordaz and his term expired

15

i n

December, 1970.

I wanted to return to the States because

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my

parents were both not well and I had been outside the

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United States for the better part of some 28 years,

and I

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wanted to be near them in their very old age.

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I also wanted to take advantage of early retirement at

20

lage

50 because I wanted to do something else with my life.

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Mr. Scott let me come back and he came to the States

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later.

I came home at the end of 1968. He came to the States

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later on consultation or something and he had decided to re-

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tire because he received an administrative message saying

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that he was age 60 and he was eligible; that was mandatory

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retirement age, and he would have to have a special authori-

zation to remain

longer. So, he decided to quit because he

felt he had already received that authorization and left in

tiff.

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I so, how would you describe his position towards the

agency when he left?

A Well, at the time that he left, I think he felt

that he wanted to stay on in Mexico, that he was on

good re-

lations as far as

I know with the Director because he was

given a medal and he came up to receive that. The agency

also, I think, was considering using him in an undercover

capacity outside.

Q

so although he was initially annoyed by having re-

ceived this administrative notice, by the time he left the

agency, he was favorably disposed towards it; is that correct?

A I think so. I think he just decided, well, he would

go ahead and retire while the present administration in

Mexico was still there and they could help him with his im-

migration papers, which took months to get under a new ad-

ministration, and

it would be easier for him to get settled

in

and if there was any question in Washington about whether

they wanted him to stay or whether they did not, it really

didn't matter. I don't know but that is my feeling about

what happened.

Q

After his retirement, Mr. Scott stayed in Mexico

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City; is that true?

Yes.

Q Did Mr. Scott ever write any personal history

describing his life as an intelligence officer?

He never showed me anything. He showed me writings

that he had done of the soviet intelligence operations that.

was published in Readers' Digest but he never went over any

history with me about himself.

O So, you don't know whether or not he wrote a per-.

sonal history describing his life as an intelligence officer?

A

No.

Q

He never discussed any such work with you?

A He never discussed it with

me.

Q: I am going to ask you to read at this time CIA

Number 4008 through 4016

and for the record I will indicate

that the agency has made available to the committee various

materials which the agency has assigned numbers

to for

security purposes and we are using the agency's security

numbers to identify the materials that we are using here

today.

So, I am going to ask you to read at this time

CIA Number 4008 to 4016.

Yes, I saw this draft when I was back here when I

A

was working.

Q

What year?

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A In April, 1977 but this was never discussed with me.

Mr.

scott had no knowledge of this if he wrote it.

Let me identify this for the record. It is marked

Folder Number 1, Chapter 24 from draft manuscript of "The

Foul Foe," the book which purports to be a book of the writer's

career in intelligence: The writer is lan Maxwell, believed

to be the pen name of Mr. Win Scott.

Now, you testified that Mr. Scott was

a competent

individual and an honest man. Would you comment upon the

accuracy of the contents of this manuscript?

A Well, to me it appears that he was writing this for

sales appeal and as far as I could tell, it does conflict

with the records... I don't know, but I think that this may

have been several years after he stopped working or certainly

long time after the assassination occurred or the investi-

gation occurred and maybe his memory was faulty; I don't know,

but I think it .conflicts with what we have.

What sections of the manuscript conflict with the

record? Let's go through it.

A Well, it leads one to believe that we had photo-

graphs here. He says that he is known to have visited both

the Soviet Embassy and the Cuban Consulate. Well, we con-

cluded from the conversations that he actually went to this

Soviet Embassy but I didn't see any actual proof that he was

in the soviet Embassy from the records.

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Now, one telephone call was made, as

I remember,

From the Cuban Embassy but I don't think he made a telephone

call to the Soviet Embassy.

I may be wrong but I don't think

he did. That is one instance.

What proof did

you have

that he went to the Cuban

Embassy or Consulate?

A .

He made a call from inside the Cuban Embassy and we

picked it up on the telephone tap line from the Cuban Em-

bassy. I should clarify that by saying a person whose voice

was considered to be the same by the transcriber made the

call and the conversation in that call was in continuity with

previous conversation in which he identified himself.

Here is another place that I don't think can be

checked out with the records.

"Persons watching these

embassies photographed Oswald as he entered each one and

clocked the time that he spent on each vitis."

As far as my mrmory goes, we never photographed

Oswald or identified a person

as Oswald entering or leaving

either place.

I said we--the people--that I didn't see

any

information to that effect.

O: Are there any other sections of that manuscript that

you think are inaccurate?

A There may be. You have to take it sentence by.

sentence to check with the record, which I have done, but

point those two things out.

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Q

Well, why don't you read through it again and point

out any major inaccuracies in the manuscript.

A

May I make a check mark on the side of this?

Q

Certainly.

Paragraph 2 on the first page.

Q

That is 4009.

As my memory recalls it, when he made his first

contact with the soviet Embassy he did not say anything about

Crimea.

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On page 2 at the end of paragraph 1.

This is page 4010. Use these numbers here.

A

Excuse me. 4010, paragraph 1..

I am inclined to go along with the warren Commission

report on. that because I believe that when we went back over

the records after the assassination; we found the Cuban

Embassy contact but I

am not sure about that.

Excuse me. So, the section here where it states:

"This contact became important after the Warren Commission

report on the assassination of President Kennedy was published

for on page 777 of that report the erroneous statement was

made that it was not known that Oswals has visited the Cuban

Embassy until after the assassination!. Every piece of infor-

mation concerning Lee Harvey Oswald was reported immediately

after it was received to U.S. Ambassador Thomas Mann," et

cetera.

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the assassination. That period after the assassination we

17

went over

those records so many times and made so many trans-

lations that it is hard to distinguish between the time after

that defector cable was received and the assassination in-

vestigation, but after the defector cable was received we did

try to get all the information together.

Q

Let me show you at this time CIA Document 243,

which is a copy of an article dated 21 October 1964 and

specifically there is a paragraph in there that reads:

"The investigators also are trying to determine why

the CIA and its pre-assassination report to the State Depart-

ment on Oswald's trip to Mexico City gave details only of the

defector's visit to the Russian Embassy and not the cuban

Embassy.. The CIA did not report the latter visit until after

Kennedy's assassination in Dallas."

Please read that paragraph to yourself that I just

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read.

Yes.

Q

Is that your handwriting in the margin on the right?

Yes.

Q

What does that say?

A

"The call from the Cuban Embassy was unidentified

until headquarters sent traces on Oswald and the voices. com-

pared by Fineglass." He was a transcriber.

That is what I said, I thought, but I could not

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remember whether it was after we got the cable

from

head -

quarters that we learned about the cuban Embassy or whether

it was after the assassination.

O so now it appears that shortly after you received

the cable from headquarters, the connection was made between

Oswald and the Cuban Embassy?

to

I don't know whether someone took those transcripts

the transcriber and asked him if it was the same person or

if he may have had copies of that tape remaining at that time

but you would have to ask him about that.

In any event, the connectionwas made between Oswald

and Oswald's visits to the Cuban Embassy before the assassina-

tion?

or

Q

• Yes, according to this it was.

Fine. Please

continue.

I could not remember whether it was after the cable

after the assassination.

And now it appears that it was before the assassina-

tion.

Before the assassination.

Q

Please continue with the manuscript.

Page 4014, paragraph 2, I don't recall that Oswald

spelled out his name slowly and carefully for the soviets in

the telephone transcript. Maybe I am wrong but I

don't think

that was in there.

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Q

Fine. Please continue.

That also has the Crimea in there.

I think he may have gotten that Crimea from another

transcript, another call that was made by a transportation

agency asking for requirements for a visa to Crimea that was

on

the transcripts in between these calls, but we determined

it was not connected with Oswald.

Page 4015, paragraph 2, persons. To my knowledge

there were no persons. who saw Oswald enter and leave each em-

bassy and clock the time he spent there.

Those are all the comments that I can make.

Q

Thank you.

Let me show you CIA Number 183, which is the head-

quarters copy of the cable that was sent to the Mexico city

station--I am sorry, this is the Mexico City station copy of

that cable. You may recall that we have shown it to you

before. This is the one that makes reference to Oswald as Lee

Henry Oswald and Win Scott apparently drew an arrow and wrote

down "sic," underlined, pointing to

the middle name "Henry."

Now, the committee has received testimony that this

notation was

made prior to the assassination

and we have

here on the one hand a manuscript where Scott says that

Oswald spelled his name slowly and clearly, and we have here

Scott aware apparently that Oswald's middle name was not

Henry. Does that suggest to you that perhaps there was a

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transcript where Oswald did spell his

name slowly and clearly?

2

A Well, I don't think so because I saw those trans-

3

cripts before Mr. Scott did. The way the paper-work

ran was

4

that those transcripts were given to the outside contact who

5

brought them to me. I looked at them and in

case

of someone

7

who

was speaking in Russian or a language that the monitors

could not transcribe at the listening post, that one copy

8

of that transcript and the tape went immediately to the person

9

handling the other transcriber.

10

In the case of the soviets it would have been Mr.

11

Manell. Sometimes the outside person could take that tape to

12

the transcriber but I don't recall any instance when Mr. Scott

13

saw the transcript before I did and I don't think that he

14

spelled his name

slowly and carefully. That is not the way

15

I

remember it.

16

So, in summary, the sections of this manuscript that

17

you have referred to as being in conflict or--let me see if

18

can clarify this.

19

Are you

saying that they are inaccurate because of

20

your memory or are you saying that they are inaccurate be-

21

cause they conflict with the record?

A

22

Well, I think both.

23

Q

Okay.

24

A

Part of the things that I worked on when I came up

25

here in February, 1977 I did not remember until I saw the

files.

That newspaper clipping I didn't remember at all

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until I saw it at the hearing.

Q And

essentially you are indicating that this manu-

script prepared by Mr. Scott is exaggerated?

In my opinion, it is. The only thing that we could

compare it with is the record of events.

•O Why would Mr. Scott have any reason to exaggerate

these things?

A. Pardon me?

O Why would Mr. Scott have any reason to exaggerate

these matters?

A

He had written books for sale and I think that he

probably felt that it would have more sales appeal. That is

my guess.

He had published. a couple of books. I don't know

how many books he published but I received a flyer of two

books that he had published and I didn't bother to read

them.

O so, in essence, then Mr. Scott, whom you have

characterized to be an honest man, was not telling the truth

when he read this first paragraph?

A No.

Let me read it to you.

"A great deal has been written about Lee Harvey

Oswald, the assassin of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Much of what has appeared in print was written by persons

who knew nothing. and who tried to conjure up from some :

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mysterious sources materials which they hope would sell.

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is written by people who knew a smathering and

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tried to design from what little they knew a story in which

4:

they hoped that what they said

would eventually be taken

as

:5

fact.

REPORTERS BULLDING, CASINGTON,

STREL'P

I learned something of Lee Harvey Oswald in the

period from Friday, 27 September 1963 (when Lee Harvey

8

Oswald having just arrived in Mexico City made his first

9. contact with the Soviet Embassy)."

10

Then it goes on.

11

Now in this first paragraph scott is trying to dis-

12

tinguish himself from all of these other people who are trying

13

to make money by conjuring up from mysterious sources

14

materials. they hoped would sell and you are saying that de-

15

spite that, he is doing the same thing?

16

That is the way it appears to me.

17

Also, I would like to say that during the time

18

that I was there in my dealings with Mr. Scott, I felt that he

19

20

was fair and honest with me.

Now, there were times too when

The exaggerated things that I knew were exaggerations.

21

Q

Could you give an example?

22

•Yes, I could give you an example.: Suspect indi-

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viduals that we had collected information on, there was a

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saying that went, here was a suspect soviet agent when the

25

person made their first contact with the soviets. The second

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third or fourth contact

they suddenly became known Soviet

agents because they had been there so many times.

I felt

that was an exaggeration, that they may have been going there

to get propaganda, and I discussed those things with him.

Did Mr. Scott maintain a personal safe?

A He maintained several personal safes but I think he

had

about three or four.

Q

Where?

A He kept them in the office. Some of them had very

sensitive coded materials in them that he had custody of and

he dealt directly with headquarters on. Some of those pro-

jects I worked on that were not related to this investiga-

tion.

He

also.had a personal safe in his home.

Q. What type of materials did he keep in that safe?

A Well, now I never inspected the materials in that

safe at his home.

•I know that from time to time he took

classified documents from the office home to work on them at

night.

I don't know whether he brought all the copies back

with him.

wow..

After he died, at the time of his death, I went

to

a man who was then Director of Counter-intelligence and

told him that I thought there might be classified documents

in his home.. Some of those documents I was told were later

turned over to the Station Chief and sent back to Washington.

Did Mr. Angelton personally go to Mexico City to

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retrieve those documents?

A

Yes, he went there to the funeral and I think he

talked to the chief of station at that time, Mr. John Horton.

After Mr. Scott's retirement, what would he have

been doing having classified materials at that time?

A. He had no business having them in my way of think-

ing.

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Q.

Now, the Committee has received testimony or state-

ments from agency employees; one, for example, was Mr. Stan-

ley Watson. Did you know him?

A :

Yes.

What is your assessment of his competence and

honesty?

A - Well, when Mr. Watson and I were in

Mexico to-

gether, he was working on projects that I was not related

with. Then he was named deputy, I think, shortly before I

left. I liked him socially but I didn't work with him.

HOW

extensive was the "p" file that the Mexico

City station had on Lee Harvey Oswald?

A I would say they were voluminous. Are you refer-

ring to only. Oswald?

Yes.

Or all of them?

Q

•I am

referring to Oswald's.

There were several volumes; I am not sure how many.

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Q

Now, Mr. Watson has testified that when

he saw

the

Oswald "p" file it was rather thin and also that within the

file he saw a photograph of Oswald that had been taken

in

Mexico City.

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I should correct that. He did not testify that;

he gave a statement to the committee

investigators about

that.

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A That he saw a photograph of Oswald that had been

taken in Mexico City?

Q Yes.

A ...Well, I don't think that the Mexico City station

ever made a photograph of Oswald. I think that he may have

been referring. to the unidentified man. but I don't know.

Q... As

a matter of fact, he was shown the photograph of

the unidentified man and he said no, that is not the one he

remembered seeing.

That

is not the way I remember.

Q

How familiar are you with the history of the Mexico

City station?

A The agency history?

Well, just the history in general of the Mexico

City station.

well, except for faults in my memory, I. think I am

as familiar as anyone who served there.

• Q

Have you ever prepared an account of the history of

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the

Mexico City station?

Q

Q

Yes.

Wehn did you do that?

When?

Yes.

I believe 1971, somewhere during that period.

Why were you selected to prepare this history; do

Q

you know?

A

I was never told.

Q

What was the

purpose?

A I felt that someone who had a higher rank should

have been selected. In fact, somebody who did have a higher

rank was selected, a man

who had out-ranked me who had worked

on the desk and had a much broader knowledge of the Mexico

operations than I

had had been selected and he had been on the

payroll as a GS-15 for well over a year or longer and he had

not written a page of that history.

Who was this man?

A

His name was Brady, B-R-A-D-Y. I came back from

Mexico and they told me that I had to write it. I tried to

cooperate in working on it.

O What was the purpose of writing this history?

To satisfy headquarters' requirement.

A

Why does headquarters have this kind of requirement?

That came down from the Director's office. I don't

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When they asked you to prepare the history, with

what goal in mind did they ask you to prepare it?

A

Pardon me?

Q When they asked you to prepare the history, they

must have explained to you what purpose they had in mind, why

they wanted the history to be written.

A They didn't ask me to prepare it; I was ordered to

prepare it and it was from a headquarters director.

Q. When they ordered you to prepare the history, they

must have told you what were important factors to consider in

writing a history. Did they just ask you to write a history

without giving you any guidance at all?

A.

There was a

historian who was brought in, I think,

from Michigan, one of the large universities, who had several

general discussions about how to write history and how to

coordinate material, but there was no one there immediately

above me with any experience in research or in writing a

history. I did it mostly. on my own.

And you do not know why these station histories are

prepared?

A.

No, unless it was just to make it easy for briefing

material for people who were going there.

I would like to show you at this time CIA Number

164

and ask you

if you can identify this document?

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yes.

Q

What is it?

A This is a background draft that I was asked to write

when I came

to work in washington for the Inspector General's

staff. They asked me to write down as much as I could remem-

ber or put together from the files which they had of what

had

happened in Mexico, a resume.

Now, I was told that this would not be used in any

way except for background information; it would never leave

the

agency.

Q

. When was this?

A The 10th of February, 1977. This is not the history

of Mexico.

Q. I understand. The history was prepared in approxi-

mately 1970 or 1971.

A This document, I objected strenuously to its being

used because I want

to call attention to the names of people.

Many of these people

are serving still, some of them in very

sensitive jobs, and they are not connected in any way with

this investigation.

Q

No one is using those names, Miss Goodpasture.

A I know but they were released outside the agency.

Q

That is a problem you have with the agency, yes.

Now, I would like to ask you to read pages 30 to 311

of your prior testimony, starting at the top of page 30 and

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going through to line 16 on page 31.

All right.

Q

Now, I would like to ask you to read CIA Number

4090

to

4091.

Before I do, Miss Goodpasture, do you remember

giving this

testimony in April?

Yes.

Q

Please

read that document.

A

I didn't remember my precise answers but I think

they are still valid as far as my memory goes now.

I don't think I ever saw this before.

Q

Have you read both

pages?

Yes. That second page, in the middle '60's there

was a proposal.

to reorganize the station and I was going to

be given a job as executive officer or personal

assistant to

the chief of station to create a slot so that I would be given

a

promotion.

My personnel file, perhaps over at the headquarters

records, may reflect that but it never came about. One of

the reasons that I wanted to retire was that they talked about

the

job. but

they never gave it to me.

Q

• So in fact you are saying that you were not a spec-

1 al

assistant to the chief of station?

A

• Not in reality.except for those projects which I

worked

on and he made the decisions on. What I mean by that

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was that he talked to the senior people involved and I did

th

legal work and most of the paper-work.

Q

Is there any of your prior testimony on pages 30

to 31 that I just showed you that you would like to modify in

light of CIA. Number

4090 and

4091?

A No, because I think that they told me that they

thought I was best qualified to write that but I don't really

know except that I am sure that the other people did not want

to do it because they didn't want to be sitting here talking

to you and discussing it.

There were many people who could have done it.

The deputy Chief of Station knew more about it than I did.

So, when you wrote this document you were doing it

in anticipation of meeting with a Congressional Committee?

Pardon me?

I So, when you wrote this document, you did it in

anticipation of meeting. with a Congressional Committee and

having to respond ta a Congressional Committée?

A Yes, because one of the first

things I saw when

came back to work was the green book that the previous Com-

mittee.

had prepared.

Is this statement in your prior testimony true,

Miss Goodpasture?

Quoting your testimony: "I was told that all of

the people who were there at the time would be interviewed

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A

Yes.

Q

So, you were told that?

A

I was told that but if I remember it, I think Mr.

Leader talked with everyone who had been there and it was

for that reason that I tried to make up a complete list

here of all of these people.

Q And all of those people would be asked to write

report as you were being asked to do?

A ' That was my understanding, yes, that they would be

interviewed.

Q

And write a report?

A

•And write a report or make a written preparation

of their memory of the events at that time.

Q

How many months did you work on this project?

A Well, it was interrupted by my mother's sudden

death. I think it was almost three.

Q

• And you felt that the agency was going to have

all of these other people spend three months?

A : . Many of these people were still on the payroll but

the writing of it was only part of it. My main function up

there I felt was to get the files together, help to locate

the files and put them together for review by the Inspector

General's staff when they were needed by the congressional

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o Did you know that you were preparing a report that

would be used by the Inspector General?

A ' Yes. I sat in his office, in his deputy's office.

Q Now, we have taken a great deal of testimony from

various other agency employees and I would like to ask you to

comment about some of their testimony. in which they character

ize you specifically.

Question by Mr. Goldsmith:

"Was Ann Goodpasture

acting in a supervisory capacity with regard to the liaison

operations?

"Mr. White: That is very difficult to say. That

is very difficult to say. She carried with her a lot of

invisible authority that devolved upon her because of her

operational relationship with the Chief of Station who had

absolute confidence in her. She had a marvelous memory; she

was meticulous in detail; I think he had every reason to put

that kind of trust in

her.

"She reported directly to him and while she may not

have been invested with any command authority by virtue of

her position at the station, certainly she was a kind of un-

official deputy for the purposes of the operations that she

was involved in.

"For example, we had this old ex-FBI guy on the

outside who worked with the Mexicans with the taps and when

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Ann spoke to George Munro and said something to him, George

knew damn well it had the backing of the chief of station.

If he didn't, he could go around and check it out..

"By and large there was not much question in

George's mind that when Ann said "The boss wants this, ' that

it came from Win.

To that extent she had supervisory re-.

sponsibility. "

of the station also?

"Mr. Goldsmith: Was Ann Goodpasture an employee

"Mr. Manell: She was.

"Mr. Goldsmith: What were her station responsi-

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bilities?

"Mr. Manell: She had many responsibilities that

included being an assistant to the chief of Station. She was

also a person who had some type of responsibility. for collect.

ing the photos that we obtained in the soviet Embassy ac-

tivity and I think she was also involved to some extent in

the

telephone tap operations that we conducted against facilities

in Mexico City.

"Mr. Goldsmith: To your knowledge, was Ann Good-

pasture Win Scott's right-hand person?

"Mr. Mannel: Yes, she was."

"Mr. Goldsmith: Do you know what her responsi

bilities" -- referring to Ann Goodpasture's -- "were in the

Mexico City Station?

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"Mr. Scelco: She was sort of the personal assistant

to win scott.

"Mr. Goldsmith: Who were Mr. Scott's chief

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"Let me rephrase the question. Upon which indi

viduals did he tend to rely the most?

"Mr. Shaw: He had one deputy who was Alan White.

As far as reliance on other people, I would say he relied

very heavily on Ann Goodpasture, not in any way in a command

function, but as a girl Friday."

Miss Goodpasture: I would rather be a girl

Friday than a right-hand man.

(Laughter.)

Well, I made more of those statements as those

people saw

it in their relationship with Mr. Scott's pro-

jects. They are true the way they saw it but I had no

responsibility outside the projects that we worked on, but

the liaison projects and the telephone tapping project touched

every operation in the Mexico station.

By Mr. Goldsmith:

Q

Did you have any contact with the ---

I just didn't think I was as important as other

people seemed to imply that I was.

Q

Prior to testifying before this Committee this

April, had you had any contact with anyone from the agency,

the CIA, with regard to your testimony here?

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A No. Well, yes, I had contact. I had a call from

Russell Holmes who told me that he could not locate some

photographs and he wanted me to come up before. I testified,

that I would have to testify. Mr. Leader told me that I

would have to testify. When I came in, I thought I would be

seeing someone for an interview.

In the corridor I saw Mr. Manell and he asked me

what I was doing here and I said I was going to

talk to him.

He said, "We all had to talk to them but don't worry because

they are only going to ask you about some of the details that

are down there in the records. " He was the only one that

had already talked to you. The others had their dates set up

or something; I don't remember precisely what dates.

Q

..Did Mr. Manell discuss with you the substance of the

questions that were asked of him?

He said generally they want to know about what hap-

pened down there and the things you will know the answers

to

and the photographs. I don't recall anything specific,

any specific questions.

After your testimony in April, did you have con-

tact with anyone from the agency about that testimony?

A I had contact with several people who asked me what

said. I didn't discuss the testimony with anyone I recall

over here. I discussed

this document with the Inspector

General's office because he had told me that it was for

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background information only.

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I said, "I want to know why you released that

document instead of the official record copy," and he said

he did not release it; it had not been released. Then I said

"Well, you better discuss it with them.".

I didn't discuss it with any of the others. 1

saw Mr. White in a cocktail bar and he asked me about it.

I told him that I thought he would be called to testify and I

was not at liberty to discuss the questions that you asked.

Did anyone else ask you about the questions that

were asked?

S.W.

RCFORTERS DUILDING, MASHINCTON.

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I don't think so.

Q

Did Mr. Breckinridge or his staff?

A

•I went to Mr. Breckinridge. He is the one I

talked to about these documents because I felt that you didn'

have all the files.

..Did you discuss the substance of your testimony

with Mr. Breckinridge?

NO.

I discussed the documents generally but we

did not. go into individual questions. Then I told him that I

didn't think I made a very good impression, and it was.

pleasant experience.

Q Was there anyone with whom you discussed the.

sub-

stance of your testimony?

A No. Mr. Leader, Mr. Breckinridge and Russ Holmes

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were in that meeting, so I think I might have said when I

went into Mr. Holmes' office that it was really rough or

something like that but we didn't go into many details.

Q Have you had any contact with the agency prior to

your testimony today?

A Yes.. I came in Tuesday, called you from the edge

of town. When I arrived at my friend's home she said,

"Someone is trying to call you; his name is George somebody."

The name didn't mean anything to me. The next morning a man

who identified himself as George Joannides called to tell me

that you had been trying to get in touch with me, and I told

him that I had already talked with you and explained to him

that 1 had called your office before I left Dallas and I had

to go to a family funeral

He said, "That is all I want to know," and I had

no other discussions with him.

Q After your testimony in April, did you stay in

Washington or in Virginia and do any work for the agency?

A. In April, I went back to the agency the following

day and I talked to Mr. Breckinridge and Mr. Leader, Mr.

Holmes.

I don't think I went back to the agency again.

Q

So, you didn't do any work for them?

A

No.

Q

No research work, for example?

No.

When I came up before I talked with you,

The Stenc

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helped them locate the photographs. Some of the photographs

they could

not find but that was before I came over here.

8 I would like to ask you now to read pages 14 to 16,

Tine 13 on page 16 of your prior testimony.

• Yes.

I haven't had breakfast yet.

We can stop for a recess for you at any time.

In

fact, we will stop at lunch time, 12:00 o'clock, at which

time you will get to enjoy capitol Hill food again. I don't

think you were very pleased with our cafeterias the last

time.

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I will also ask you to read pages 35 to 38.

May I correct the spelling?

Q

Please do.

All right.

Q.

Now, I would like to ask you to read CIA Number

4017 and 4018, which is a fitness report prepared by win

Scott for you during the period 1963.

All right.

Now, having read your fitness report for 1963, are

there any portions of your prior testimony that you wish to

modify?

A

No, not really.. Now, this LIEMPTY project, this

is a case

of where I cannot seem to make it clear how our

functions were... Now, the case officer had responsibility

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for the operation of the project. He decided how much to

pay the agents, what hours they worked; where the meetings

were held.. He hired them; he fired them and he knew the

identities; he met with all of them.

He brought in the photographs, the product.

He

dumped it on my desk and he was finished with it. I took

the product film and prints and the contact file and dis-

tributed those.

I could levy any requirements of him or other people

in the station which as he remembered it it might have been

for supervision, but when he was out of town I met with one

agent with his so-called cut-out.

I did not meet with the others. I never determined

how much. they were paid, when they were paid, when they would

meet, what hours they worked. This is what I

was telling

you earlier, that the job description was laid out primarily

to get me a promotion. I stayed in grade for 10 years.

O so, are you saying that this ---

A The responsibilities of that project were divided

in that way. Now, he may remember it differently.

Win Scott prepared this fitness report and apparent-

ly you signed it.

A

Yes.

Q.. Specific duty number 1 says: "LIEMPTY project

working with Jeremy L. Niarcos, regular contact case officer,

10 SeA

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supervises work of three photo bases operating against

the

Soviet Embassy. The processes tape, identify soviets and

intelligence functions. Ultimate contact with staff agent."

This is not accurate?

A It is not precise the way the work was divided.

The photo project was first set up by Mr. Mahoney and Mr.

Anderson and they brought the photographs in to me.

The next person who handled that project--and at

that time it was one project all of its own, not called

LIEMPTY--he was transferred away and I stayed there.

Then Mr. Puckett came and took over the project.

am giving you this background to show you the rank.

I

believe Mr. Puckett was GS-14.

I continued to handle the photographs. I made

recommendations for changing it but I was

never the case

officer. They discussed giving me that project and making me

the

case officer but it never really

came about.

Q

Did you supervise the work of Tom Keenan?

A

No, only to the extent that I reviewed the photo-

graphs and if there was something wrong with the photographs,

went in to Tom and

said--we were good friends and we worked

together, but I did not tell him what time to meet the

people, how much to pay them. He wrote his own project out-

Tine for the project. I worked with him but it was as an

alternate, not as a supervisor, and that is the way I

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remembered it.

1.223

O This duty which is listed as specific duty number 1

is not. an accurate summary then of what your responsibilties

were?

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He said that I was working with Tom Keenan but I

was in the secondary position rather than in the primary posi

tion. That is what I am trying to say. I had been there so

long and I knew the history of the project.

@ Did you establish, for example, the time of the

photo coverage, the scope of the photo coverage?

•I don't think I did. I think that the photo cover-

age had been established by the case officer who first set

it up on the basis it needs. Now, if we knew that someone

might come down there on a weekend, I would run in and say,

"Tom, have the boys work all weekend." We would arrange for

other people to be in the area working.

Quite frequently, I went out to the area to work.

Tom went out to the area to work on discounts but every other

case officer did the same thing if they had someone who might

go there.

Now,..I don't understand why, if you knew this.

description was inaccurate, you left this document go to

headquarters.

A

I think it was made on the basis of trying to get

a

promotion for me.

3: 4 seen th

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Fine. Thank you.

1UP SECRE

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HOW

many photo bases did the Mexico City station

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have surveiling the Soviet Embassy in 1963?

4.

A

Three.

In 1963, 1 think they had three.

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Q

•If I give you a piece of paper, would you be able

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to

draw the

embassy and indicate the locationof the photo

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bases?

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I think so.

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Q

Please.

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A This is the main building which went something.

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like this.. That building was located inside a compound.

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Now over here were other buildings and there were houses.

13

here. In one of these houses--I am not sure now which one--

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the photo base was located in.

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Q

Let's number each of these bases 1, 2 and 3.

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Where was photo base number 1 located in reference

17.

to the entrance to the embassy?

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A This is the entrance right here. It was across

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the

street on the west.

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Let's label the entrance letter "A."

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would

like to have this marked "Goodpasture,

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Exhibit Number 1," and admitted..

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(whereupon,

the document was

was marked Goodpasture, Ex-

hibit No. 1.)

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TOP SEORET

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By Mr. Goldsmith:

O would you indicate on this diagram what the

cryptonyms were for each of these photo bases?

Are you certain that what you have indicated as

photo base number 1 was LIMITED and that photo base number

2

was LILYRIC? Is it possible that you have them reversed?

A Well, let's see. After the Warren Commission re-

port, after the unidentified man was released to the public,

the bases were closed. This building suffered damage.

Q

Referring to building number 1.

There was an old man here.

Q

That is in building number 1?

Yes, these people I believe were paid off. This

after I had. nothing more to do with the project, so that

is.

the

reason that I am vague on it. The people who were located

here were moved from this location to this location.

So, the people in

location number 2---

A so that the LILYRIC people who had a cryptonym were

operating first here and then they moved to this location.

When did they make that move?

I don't remember. I don't know.

Q

On what floor of the buildings were these photo

bases situated?

This was a house.

Q

Number 1?

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A That is the reason why it was LIMITED. A two-

story and

the top part was used. It was a stone colonial

house and had a shell in one of the parts of the outside

wall. Anyway, they built a small. room. I believe this was

one-story house and they built a room up in the attic

but I was never in that building so I am not sure. It might

have been

two stories.

You are referring to number 1?

A This was one the second or third floor of an apart-

ment building.

This was one the second floor of a small row house.

Q

You are referring now to number 3.

Yes.

I think there were four houses there and I

don't remember which number it was in.

It was in one of the

four. I believe it was number 3.

Which of these photo bases did you say was on the

second floor of the building?

I think this was on the second floor or the third

floor.

Q

Q

Number 2?

The apartment building.

Number 2?

It was in the apartment building. This was a pri-

vate residence.

That is number 1.

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A

Q

And this was a private residence.

That is number 3.

This was a multiple dwelling.

You are referring now to number 2?

Number 2.

Which one of these bases took the better pictures?

Well, I felt that this had the better quality

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picture.

Q

You are referring now to the LILYRIC?

A . Yes.

The photographs were made from a different

angle.

Q And LILYRIC had the better angle?

A No.

I think the pictures were sharper but I don't

think the angle was any better. They were younger people,

I think, and they could handle the camera better.

Q Now, did these two photo bases complement each

other or did they duplicate each other's work?

A Well, sometimes they duplicated each other and

sometimes they complemented each other.

Q

Refer now to 1963.

This man in 1963, I think, I cannot remember.

The only way to accurately answer that question would be to

check their logs. to determine when they were making photo-

graphs and when they overlapped.

Q

What would have been the purpose of duplicating the

10. 526

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coverage?

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None that I can see.

A bit of history. It was my understanding that the

reason there were two bases so close together at that time was

so that in case something happened to one--if, for instance,

police van moved up there and sat all day and this one had

to stop work, there would be an alternate or if something

happened, we would have another base that could take over.

Q But normally they both would not be working at the

same time?

A

I think they were set up in a way that they alter-

nated. They provided the coverage at different hours.

It would not really make any sense any other way.

A : No.

Q Let me show you some documents which seem to be

consistent with that; in other words, documents which seem

to

be consistent with your testimony. I am first going to

show

you some pages from a document that is a request for the

approval of a project for the period December, 1960 through

30 November 1961.

Excuse me for a moment.

specifically now, CIA Number 4072; which is part

of this request for project approval from the year 1960--

why don't you read paragraph B. This is requesting renewal

of the project for 1961. This was written in 1960 for

TOP OE0RE1

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approval of the project for 1961.

A I cannot remember who was--now, this was when?

Puckett was there as case officer before Tom Keenan came in.

Q

I understand.

Now, drawing your attention to paragraph B, are the

contents of that paragraph accurate?

A .

I think so.

Q

Now, let's take a look at CIA Number 4063 which is

the request for approval of the project for the following year,

and I direct your attention to paragraph B-1. Does that

paragraph indicate that there has been no change in the cov-

erage as described in the 1960 request?

A Yes.

Q. Now, CIA Number 4055, which is the request for the

following year 1962. I draw your attention to paragraph B-1.

Does that paragraph indicate

that to avoid repetition the

station is omitting the usual description

of the functions of

these three bases and though they contribute to the above

objective?. This was described in detail in the 1960 request

for project renewal.

Is that indicated there?

It indicates that there was not any change.

Q

Finally, this is the request for approval for the

year 1963, CIA Number 4047.

A

Now, this is what I was talking about earlier.

-

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Q

A

What

are you referring to?

When we were talking about supervision.

Q.

Yes.

A Now, Tom Keenan made his own project renewal re-

quest for the project and his name is not shown in here.

made up the ones that I worked with Win Scott. This is not.

consistent with the statement in the efficiency report.

Q

For the record, Miss Goodpasture is referring to

CIA Number 4025.

Now, let me refer you to CIA Number 4047, which is

the request for project approval for the year 1963 and

specifically to paragraph B-1.

Yes.

There was no change.

•So, in essence, these documents support your testi-

mony that the coverage was designed to be complementary. rather

than duplicative?

Did. either of these photo bases take photographs

of oswald during his visit to

Mexico City?

A

Pardon me?

Q Did either of these photo bases take photographs

of Oswald in his visit to Mexico City in 1963?

A

Not to my knowledge.

Q Do you know Why?

A I don't think he went there during the hours when

they were working.

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49

Mias

Well, we have established from these documents that

the hours essentially were all daylight hours and these docu-

ments also indicate that there was Saturday coverage. Oswald

went there on. Friday and Saturday.

A This project outline was a proposal in theory that

the only way that you can determine when they were actually

working would be to take the location and check the logs

because every time they took a photograph, they turned in

daily report. Every time they made a photograph they put

down the time, the exposure number and what happened. So,

to see when

they made pictures, they may have

been working and

not made a picture.

O Well, at the very least, we see that these docu-

ments indicate that the station had informed headquarters that

by design these photo bases operate in a

complementary manner

and also that Saturday coverage was to be included.

Now, you are saying they may not have been working

that way in fact but that is what the records indicate?

A That is right. The only way you can tell that they

were actually working would be to check the logs.

Q Miss Goodpasture, are the logs from the LILYRIC

operation for 1963 available today?

A .. I believe that some of the LILYRIC logs were not

in the files when I checked and we thought that they had

been destroyed when the files were reduced in size.

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nicotta

2 When was that?

A I wrote a memo on that which is in the record based

on what we found

at the time we made the file search.

I am not sure exactly what date it was but the

memorandum which I prepared, and I think you have a copy of it,

which shows the backs of some of the files marked LILYRIC

in this period that were interested in and had been used:

for other photo files. I was not in the Mexico station at

the time that that happened so l don't know how it came

about or why.

Q

Miss Goodpasture, I would like to show you your

testimony before the Committee on pages 47 through 51. I

would like to ask you

to read that testimony and to tell me

if it is still accurate in your mind.

Yes.

How far did you want me to read?

Q

Read through page 51.

Right here there is something confusing.

Q

Please read the entire testimony and it is possible

that in context everything will be consistent and clear.

Please read that and then we will let you correct or modify.

A: What I was referring to here when --

This is page 51.

A

I thought you were asking me about photographs

made during the time span of the Oswald visit between 27

september and 2 October, when I said one page was missing.

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Q. That is what I was asking you about. I was con-

cerned with that time period.

A Now, the photographs which were destroyed, there

would have been one page for the 27th of september that would

have been LILYRIC. That one we could not find.

Q But the negatives were still in existence?

A Because at the time that we sent the photograph to

Washington in 1963, shortly after I think we sent those photo-

graphs to Washington after the assassination, the negatives

of the LILYRIC photographs I believe were forwarded to

Washington; I am

not sure.

O So, the negatives were still in existence but the

photographs you were not able to find.

A : For

that day.

Q

What about the production log for that day?

The production log we could not locate as I remember

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1t.

Q Fine.. Is there anything else you would like to

clarify about this testimony?

No, I just wanted to establish that timeframe, 27

October to 2 October, which I think was a weekend.

Do you know why the LILYRIC photographs were des-

troyed?

Q

I think it was reduction of the files.

Why did they keep the LiMited photographs and not

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the LILYRIC?

I don't know but I will say this: That for the size

of

the files, the file room was about four times the size of

this room and you could not walk through there by the time

I

left.

There was a new Station Chief and he didn't have the

same feeling for all of those records that his predecessor

had had and he had a new staff with him.

When

I went back there a few months after I had left,

you could have played ping pong in the place, there was that

much

paper that had been reduced.

0

Miss Goodpasture, have you ever heard that

Charlotte Bustos found a photograph of Oswald at CIA head-

quarters?

A . You told me that when I was here in April but I was

not aware of that.

Mr. Goldsmith: I think this may be an appropriate

time for us to break for lunch.

Miss Goodpasture: I think it might.

Mr. Goldsmith: We will break until 1:30.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m.,

recess was taken until

--

1:30

p.m.)

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ANN GOODPASTURE

resumed the stand, and having been previously duly sworn,

was examined and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION

By Mr. Goldsmith:

@ I believe that you have a statement, Miss

Goodpasture, that you would like to clarify for the record

at this time?

Yes. You asked me earlier if I had been in touch

with anyone from the agency after my last testimony in

April. In July 1978; I believe it was the

15th of July;

a very close friend of mine died, and I came to Washington

just for the funeral. While I was here, Scott Breckinridge

called the house and asked if he could come by and see me.

He and. Russ

Holmes came by, and he said that he wanted

to know where the records were, if I could give them any

information to locate any additional records on the photo-

graphs for Cuban and Soviet embassies. He was mainly

interested in Cuban embassy photographs because he thought

that I had given testimony before that was not consistent

with information in the files.

I didn't recall giving specific testimony on

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Cuban embassy photographs on when that camera was in operation.

In any event, I told him that - where the logs would be

located and how he could find out when coverage was made, when

the cameras were operating with the logs. And that was the

extent of that contact.

Did you indicate to him where those logs could

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be found?

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found?

A

Pardon me?

Did you indicate to him where those logs could be

• Yes.

I indicated where I had seen them last.

And where was that?

That was Mr. Holmes' files, in his file cabinet.

Now, when you

testified in April, we discussed a

photograph, photograph of the unidentified man --

A

Yes.

who was initially mistakenly linked with Oswald

in the cable that was sent from Mexico City Station to

headquarters.

Do you remember that?

A Right.

And that cable reported that on 1 October 1963

the North American male was

seen -- rather not seen, but

had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy.

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I have before me CIA No. 4087, which is apparently

a

1og from the photo coverage, and I would like to ask you on

what basis the report was made that the unidentified man had

been in contact with the embassy on October Ist?

According to the log, it indicates he was there on

October 2nd.

A

I think that the person that wrote the cable -- I an

not sure who wrote the cable, but I think that when they first

looked at it, they thought that this was the lst of October,

that everything here was the first of October. He didn't

read the log here.

I But in the original of that log, I should point out

that each day is marked off with a red row.

A

Yes.

@ We have a. Xerox here which doesn't reflect the

fact that this was actually sort of a multicolored document.

A

But that is theionly explanation I have, just

that it was careless reading.. I don't know.

Were you the person that went and retrieved that

photograph and made the connection with the date, or wat

it someone else?

A

It could have been me or it could have been the

person who sent the cable, but I usually gave copies of the

photograph to the analysts to do whatever they wanted to

with it.

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Now, in this

particular case, that photograph

could have been given to Mr. Scott, Mr. White or Mr. Manell.

Why would it have been given to Mr. Scott or Mr.

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A Because at the time that we got the intercept and

we began to look at the photographs, any American that we

thought we had identified, we passed it to the Chief of

Station and the Deputy Chief of Station, and the men for

the Soviets, Mr. Manell.

Now, we were not supposed to report on American

citizens unless they were subjects of ongoing investigation

and we had permission to pass that information to the FBI.

I

guess it was because of the civil rights thing, but we just

had a standard regulation that we had

to have permission from

headquarters to disseminate information on Americans.

& Do you recall who specifically found

!, the photograph

of the inidentified man, the photograph that was mistakenly

tied to Oswald?

A

Pardon me?

O Do you recall specifically who it was that found

the

photograph of the unidentified man, the photograph which

was

mistakenly linked to Oswald?

A

I am the person that first made the decision that

that man was probably an American. Now, I think Mr. Scott

was the one who inserted in the cable or sent the message

0 da

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that it was probably. Oswald, but I don't know.

I can't -- I

don't remember who -- how that photograph was connected with

Oswald later. It was

the only person, the only photograph

in the bunch that could have been a non-Latin that day.

Well, let me show you this here. On September 27th,

'63, there were two other unidentified American males.

A .

But these people had been there several times

before. We knew who they were.

How did you know that then?

A

Because of that license plate.. That car: had been

there previously.

What about the individual on line 13?

A

I think that they were Mexicans.

There is a

notation here which says this is a

Mexican man, Gutierrez, license plate changed in February

'64 to Mexican, so and so.

A

Yes, we identified him and I believe he was in a

travel agency.

I am not sure.

But was he identified in 1964, or was he still

unidentified as of September 27th, 1963?

A He had been identified, I think, before. I don't

know; I would have to check the records to be sure. I think

that he had been identified through a previous visit in the

same care with

the same Texas plates, and this was another

visit that he had made there.

109 Sam

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If he had been identified, then why would the

have referred to hin as an unidentified American male?

109

A This was made by the base house operator.

We

didn't tell them when we identified someone.

They typed up the log.

. Now, getting back to the first question that I

asked you here, you are saying that whoever went to this 1og

just looked at the top of the page where it said October Ist,

and went down the rest of the page, and assumed that the man

had made contact with the embassy on the Ist, even though.

he appears under the 2nd.

The 2nd.

Do you think that you would have made that mistake?!

A

• I could have, yes.

I Even though you worked with these types of logs

over a period of many years?

A.

Well, it is very careless, but I am not above it.

I can't say now because I don't remember.

@ Who first identified Oswald in his dealings with

the Cuban Government in Mexico City?

A.

Who first identified him?

I Who first made the connection that Oswald had been

in contact with the Cuban Government in Mexico City?

A:

I don't remember.

Was it yourself?

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M385?

Well, it might have been

Yes time

the monitors

outside

and

they called it to my attention.

Pardon me?

The transcriber outside may have called it to my

A

attention.

A

When did he call it to your attention?

I said he may have. I don't remember.

Let me show you CIA No. 4019, which is the recommenda-

tion initiated by David Phillips recommending that you receive

a

medal for your high performance at the Agency.

Please read it.

(Pause)

A

I don't remember if I was the first one who saw

it in the transcript. or not, even though Dave Phillips says

that here.

I haven't seen this before. They did give me a

medal, and it burned with all my household effects while I

was here on a TDY.

Do you think if you had been the person who had

made

the connection between Oswald and the Cubans, that that

is an event which, in light of Oswald's subsequent

involvement in the assassination of the President, you would

have remembered?

A

Well, I think that with all of the things that

happened at that time, just being the one who recognized

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that that call came from inside the Cuban embassy, calling it

to the attention of someone else would not have been that

significant because of all the other things that we were doing

at the same time.

Ms. Goodpasture, was there a photo surveillance

operation against the Cuban consulate in 1963?

A

There was a photo surveillance capability against

the Cubans. I am not sure if it was located in front of

the Consulate or in

front of the embassy because I didn't

have responsibility for handling any of the Cuban photographs.

Do you know whether this surveillance operation was

able to obtain a photograph of Oswald during his stay in

Mexico City?

A

I don't think it did.

Do you know why it was unable to?

Well, now, that is part of the grey area. I heard

but I don't recall seeing this in the record, that that

camera was down, not functioning at that time.

2.. Let me show you now a series of documents from

that record which the Committee is attempting to clarify.

And hopefully by showing you these documents,

your memory

may be somewhat refreshed as to what happened. The first

is a document dated 18 October 1963 which is a monthly

report for the month of September 1963 dealing with these

photographic surveillance operations, and I would like for

10P S2

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you to read at this time CIA Document 4111, starting

paragraph 5(c) .

You may want to look at the first page, but start

reading down here.

(Pause)

How far do you want me to read?

Just to there.

Does paragraph 5(c) refresh your memory at all as

to the capability of the Soviet surveillance operation --

A

NO.

Rather, the Cuban surveillance operation?

A

No.

I really wasn't involved in this operation.

This was one that was directed by what they call the Technical

Services Staff and the station photographer. The only time

got involved in the Cuban

photographs was when they had

a photograph and they wanted to know if that person had gone

to the Soviet embassy or if they had somebody they wanted

me to watch for, my people in there.

I So you don't have any personal knowledge one way

or another about whether the camera was in operation.

A

No, nothing except what came. to me second hand.

And. that was what came to you second hand.

A

Yes, station comments in my presence or something.

What was the substance of those station comments?

A

Well, that the camera was not functioning. I

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knew that they were trying out a pulse camera, one that was

activated by motion, and they wanted to know about putting

that in one of the Soviet bases, but it produced a voluminous

amount of film and we couldn't handle it because everybody

that went by triggered the camera.

Thank you.

Turning to another area now, Ms. Goodpasture, did

the Mexico City Station maintain records and files on employees

of the Cuban Embassy and Consulate?

A Yes.

@ How extensive were the Station's filed on Sylvia

Duran, who was the secretary to the Cuban Consul with whom

Oswald had a contact when he applied for a visa?

A. . I don't think I looked at that file until I came

back to Washington, when I was here for the three months.

It

seems to me that it was a couple of volumes.

Q.. Did the Mexico City Station maintain material in the

file concerning Duran's sexual affairs or love life?

A

• The Mexico Station policy. on files was to put a

copy of every bit of information about an individual that came

to their attention in that file.

So that would include those types of matters.

A

That would include everything.

(Discussion off the record)

By Mr. Goldsmith: (Resuming)

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Q

Would the information that the Agency obtained

on Duran's

sex life have been used to attempt to recruit her

in some capacity to work for the Agency or to assist the

• таки

Agency in some way?

A.

You mean could it be or was it?

could.

A

Well, I think that that would be a question that

only the case officer would be able to answer because he

would have a better idea of what her reaction would be.

Now, we kept everything of a personal nature about

an individual in an assessment, personality assessment so

that whoever wanted to attempt to recruit that individual

could take that information into consideration in making their

approach.

0 .

So that information would be considered.

A

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Yes.

Did anyone at the Mexico City Station ever attempt

to recruit Sylvia Duran to work for the Agency?

A. No, I don't know for sure.

That would have been

something for the Cuban section to have handled and I

wouldn't have had specific knowledge of it.

0 ...

Well, would it have been standard operating procedure

to attempt to recruit someone who worked at the Cuban consulate?

Of course.

(Pause)

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10GD

Let me show you CIA document No. 4033, which

was

contact report, and I would like to ask you to read paragraph

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NO.

4.

(Pause)

A

Okay.

• Now, according to this document, a CIA source is

providing information that Oswald may have had sexual affairs

or relations with Sylvia Duran.

Do you recall when the first time was that this

type of information concerning Oswald and. Duran came to the

attention of the Mexico City Station?

A

NO.

My only connection with Sylvia Duran that I recall

was the Mexican police picked her up after the assassination

and interrogated her. The man who obtained the interrogation

report gave them to me to carry back to the office.

That

was George Munro whom you mentioned earlier with Mr. White.

He handled that outside project. He was the outside case

officer.

I Did he give you the interrogation report or did he

give you transcripts as well?

A I don't remember because I think that he only

gave me the interrogation reports in Spanish, and I think

Dave Phillips had someone do the translation.

He may have given me the initial report and then

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Dave Phillips saw him directly. I can't remember that.

Were you given a transcript of the interrogation

itself in addition to aireport?

A

Yes, I think there was a lengthy transcript.

And George Munro was -

It had her photograph in it.. I think they gave us

a

copy of the Mexican file on her which had a copy of the

arrest, her photographs and the interrogation report.

Did it also have a transcript of the interrogation?

A.

I'm not sure about that now.

Was George Munro the person who was principally

involved in handling this matter with the Mexican authorities?

A

Yes I think he was.

I. Do you know why the Mexico City Station requested

the Mexican.

government to arrest Sylvia Duran?

A

No, I don't know exactly why.

Do you know why she was selected as opposed to

anyone else at the Consulate or Embassy?

No.

Do you know whether Headquarters was notified

prior to the Mexico City Station requesting that Duran be

arrested?

A

I don't remember. Without checking the file I

couldn't say.

When did Headquarters first learn of the actual

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arrest?

A

I don't know, but I think it was after she had

been arrested.

A

Do you recall what the headquarters reaction was?

I don't think they liked. it, but I don't remember

exactly what the comment was.

Do you have any reason to know why they didn't like

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it?

A

well, I think that they felt that the station was

stirring up an international problem, something with the Cuban

embassy, that there might be - that the Cuban embassy might

lodge a protest.

Why did the - why did headquarters request the

Mexican Government to keep the arrest absolutely secret?

A I don't know.

I Do you know why the Mexico City station did not

contact headquarters prior to requesting the Mexicans to

arrest Sylvia Duran?

A

No.

Frequently Mr. Scott took independent action without

getting

headguarters' approval on some cases, and I believe

that he discussed this, but I am not sure. I'd have to

check the records, I think he discussed it with the Ambassador

before it occurred. The Ambassador Mann I think would

remember.

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Did any Americans have contact with

Sylvia

Duran

during her arrest?

I don't know.

Now, you have indicated that Mr.. Munro gave you the

interrogation reports from the interrogation of Sylvia Duran.

How many interrogation reports did he actually give

you?

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I don't know. I don't remember.

But the -- I said he gave me the reports. I don't

remember that he gave me the reports, but the standard method

of transmitting things to the station would have been through

Ine.

It also could have been through Mr. Scott. Mr. Scott

met him maybe once a week. I met him every day and I took

an envelope out for Mr. Scott and gave it to him which con-

tained

a list of reguests from the station, and I

received

an envelope from him which included all

the material that he

wanted to go to Mr. Scott. I took that in and gave it to

Mr. Scott, and a cover sheet that listed the contents.. Mr.

Scott read it all and then in most cases he did the routing,

and indicated on the cover sheet in his handwriting to whom

he had sent the enclosure.

I Did you ever read the interrogation reports?

A I looked at those reports - that file when I

came up here in 1977. I don't think I had seen it before.

I' Do you recall how many interrogation reports were

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present in the file?

A

NO.

I What was done with the reports in Mexico City after

they were received?

A They were distributed to the case officer that was

interested in that particular area. For instance, if there

were two soviet couriers that came in that were under

surveillance by the Mexicans, that report would go to Mr.

Manell. If there had been two Cubans, that report would have

gone to Dave Phillips' section.

In the case of Sylvia Duran's interrogation --

A

That would have gone to--

What about her interrogation reports?

A

• It would have

gone to the Cuban Section. That

would have been Mr. Phillips' office.

When, if ever, would the interrogation reports

have been sent to Washington, to headquarters?

A

well, they should have been sent by the next

pouch.

Did the Mexican Government give the Mexico City

Station all the information that it had obtained from

Sylvia Duran during her arrest?

YOU

A

Well, that's a good question. You never know whether

get it all or not because you have no way of checking.

Q.

What --

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A

Hots ande

In liaison operations, you can only assme

that

they have given you what they want you to have, and I don't

think you have any way of proving whether you got it all of

not.

7

8

A

I would like to show you at this time CIA No. 743

Can you identify, that document?

Which one?

The document that appears on this page.

This page?

(Pause)

since you are having some difficulty, why don't we

start at the very beginning of this, and we are now at CIA

No. 628.

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Can you identify the material contained here?

A: This document, I think, contains a series of

extracts made by Mr. Rocca, I believe, of the CI Staff, from

documents which were in the Mexico Station file of Oswald.

Did you have any involvement in the compiling of

this document?

A

No. I saw this after it was already done, and I

did make some notations on sone information in here that

was not correct..

I see.

What about the marginal notations on the left side

of each page?

Co deraid Alon

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No, I didn't have anything to do with that.

don't know about it.

I assume that must refer to the number of the

document, but I don't know.

Let's l00k at page 743

now..

I would like you to address your attention to the

marginal notation on the left.. It says Oswald and Sylvia

had an affair. Why didn't Mexican police give us all informa-

tion?

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A

I think what happened there, I think we received

the information from this source --

That's LIRING-3?

LIRING-3, long after wereceived the information from

the Mexican police, but I don't know.

You received a report from him long after you. --

A

That's my

guess. I don't know.

Is it possible that --

A

I think that this probably came in later.

Well, by this you are referring to LIRING's report.

That came in in 1967?

A .:

I think the LIRING-3 information was the only

informant -- this was the only informant who claimed that

Sylvia Duran was linked sexually with Oswald. I don't

think the Mexicans reported that information to us.

The Mexicans never reported. that at

all.

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A. I don't think so.

I Do you know whether this allegation was ever

confirmed?

A. I don't think it was. It seems to me that there

was a rumor that LIRING-3 always connected his suspects

with somebody else sexually, and the information could never

be confirmed

I Do you have any reason to believe that the Mexican

authorities withheld information from you?

A No, but I have no reason to believe that they

always.

gave us every bit of information they had on a

subject because we didn't give them all the information we

had on a subject.

Did you have reason at any time to suspect that

Duran may have been a Mexican agent?

A

Pardon me?

Did

you ever have reason to believe that Sylvia

Duran may have been an agent for the Mexicans working in the

Cuban Consulate?

A I don't - I never gave the matter any thought

because I wasn't responsible for the cuban activities

section.

Do you know a man named Maurice Bishop?

A

Who?

Maurice Bishop?

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A

I don't think so.

Did he have a pseudonym?

We are actually not sure if the name Maurice.

Bishop is a pseudonym or a true name.

Bishop. That name doesn't ring a bell with me.

I Are you familiar with the allegation that was

made in 1964 and 1965 by a woman named Elena Garro de Paz

concerning her having

seen Oswald at a party in Mexico City?

A

Who made it?

The woman's name was Elena Garro de Paz.

A . Yes.

As I recall now, she -- a man by the name

of Charles Thomas, III, who was a Foreign Service officer in

the political section in Mexico, had a wife whose name was

Cynthia.. The

two of them knew some Mexicans who were

literary types and little theater types. I believe that

Thomas and his wife were interested in little theater groups

of art groups, and they had met Garro at some function.

He

wrote a memorandum with information in it that she had given

him. I believe -- I think that the minister -- that went

up to the ambassador's office, and the minister gave it to

Mr. Scott and asked Mr. Scott to confirm it. Mr. Scott asked

I think he asked me about it and I believe we asked the FBI

and the FBI came back that they were also working on it. They

had been asked to check it out.

Not very long after that another memo came from

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Thomas of another conversation with

this woman. In that

memorandum, her story was a little bit bigger and a little

bit different, but. I don't think - and I believe that

the Mexicans

arrested the woman and her mother-in-law, or

they asked the Mexicans for police protection at the time

of the assassination, and out of that came still more memorant

da.

Well, we will get into that in a moment.

Let me show you CIA No. 719, which is a document

that is among the compilation prepared by Mr. Rocca.

A

This one?

Yes, it is entry No. 426.

read that to yourself?

Would you please

(Pause)

Just read this

section.

A

That's all you want?

Okay.

Now, Entry No. 426 indicates that sources LICHANT

and LIONION were going to be asked about Elena Garro's story.

What did these sources report when they were

asked about Elena Garro.

de Paz's allegations, LIONION and

LICHANT, when they were asked about Elena Gerro's allegations.

What did they report?

A

I don't know.

In my part of this would have been that I would

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have gotten questions to give to watson to

ask Thomas.

LIONION -- well, that cryptonym LIONION there is used in-

correctly because cryptonym LIONION was the whole Cuban

embassy. LICHANT-1 was a source in the Cuban embassy, and

I think he was in touch with someone in the Cuban section.

Now, you mentioned Watson.

was

Watson in Mexico City at this time?

A

Yes, Watson was the man who was in touch with

Thomas, and I think he was the one that Thomas unburdened

to first, and then they got a memorandum out.

I see.

Now, LICHANT, the source, his name was Manuel

300 VTI STREET.

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Calvillo.

A . I didn't know him. He was -- he may have been in

touch with the Cubans or with Watson.. I don't know who

handled him as a case officer.

(Discussion off the record.)

By Mr. Goldsmith: (Resuming)

Please read CIA No. 718, Entry No. 425, this

paragraph here.

(Pause)

A

Yes.

Now, Manuel Calvillo is LICHANT I, and in that

section that I just asked you to read, he is the person

that escorted Elena Garro de Paz to the small hotel.

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Mm-hmm.

4952211

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But he wasn't in touch with my Mexicans.

He was reporting independently to someone else in the station,

not through Liaison.

I Do you know who gave him his orders to --

No.

-- to take her to a hotel? Is it possible that it

was

someone at the station?

No, I don't think it came from us.

l This same individual, Manuel Calvillo, knew about

Sylvia Duran's arrest before it had been made public.

Do you know how he obtained that information?

A

No.

@ Do you know why Calvillo, who is LICHANT-I,

discouraged Elena Garro de Paz from contacting the American

embassy?

A

No.

Did you ever meet this man Calvillo?

A

No.

You indicated earlier that -

A I don't even know who he reported to in the

station.

Mr. Goldsmith: Off the record.

(Pause)

The Witness: No, it would have probably been

either Watson or one of the people in the Cuban embassy,

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but you can find out by getting his 201 file and finding,

out to whom he reported, who wrote reports on him.

By Mr. Goldsmith: (Resuming)

Okay.

He would have a 201 file and he would have an

agent file, I think. Io get the money to pay the man, they

had to submit an operational report on their contacts with

him.

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Did you ever submit any questions to Watson

to pass on to Mr. Thomas?

A

. I am sure I did but I don't remember what they

were. I probably took the memo that Watson had written.

and wrote up a list of questions that went something like,

"Who else was there when Sylvia Duran -- when this occurred,

where, at what time" and so forth, how did she communicate

with him.

I Did this man Calvillo, LICHANT-1, ever submit any

written reports regarding Elena Garro de Paz?

A I don't know, but his file should indicate whether

there were any.

Is it possible that Calvillo was an unwitting

asset to the Agency?

A It's possible that Calvillo was a subagent of

Geörge Munro and also at the same time being handled by

someone in the station without our knowledge, I mean, a

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subagent of George Munro without our knowledge. He may have

been on a surveillance team directed by one of the people

that George Munro was handling.. At the same time, he was.

on that team, he may have been reporting to Bob shaw, or

Mr. Watson, or Mr. Phillips:

I see.

Let me show you CIA No. 725, and I would like.

to

ask you to read Entry No. 466.

(Pause)

A

Yes.

Does this entry appear to confirm that Elena Garro

de Paz did in fact stay at a small hotel in Mexico City

several days immediately after the assassination?

A

That's the notation made. by Mr. Rocca, and this

memo was from the FBI office to Mr. Scott.

2

And the substance of the memo appears to confirm

that aspect of her story, is that correct?

A

Unless there was another person by the same name

from San. Luis Potosi at that hotel, which I doubt.

Well, so in substance, the memo tends to confirm

that aspect of the story, is that correct?

A

That would be my deduction, yes.

I Do you know whether Calvillo, LICHANT-1, was

questioned about this?

A

NO.

moong yate

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l Even

after this portion of his

story was confirmed,

he was not questioned about it? Or you don't know if he

was questioned about it?

A

I don't know because I wouldn't have been the

person that would have been --: I should have seen

part of

it, but it would have been up to Stan watson probably

to read the material when it came in.

Do you know why it would have taken almost a year

to have confirmed this aspect of Elena Garro de Paz's story?

I might add that --

Well, you almost could never

get

an answer out

of Charlie Thomas when you asked him sometning.. He wrote

these memos constantly. Then you would ask him for additional

information,

it would be just like dropping a rock into

the ocean.

It never came back up. But I don't know.

2 .

So are you saying that because Mr. Thomas was

slow in responding to inquiries by the station, that that is

why it took so long to confirm this aspect of his story?

Well, he reported information that he had heard,

and then I think that he was not always able to go back

to

the source and say, you said such

and such a time this.

Can you give me more information? He didn't want to be

embarrassed by asking for additional information. He had

no asset.

Apparently the sequence of events was approximately

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as follows: On December 10th Mr. Thomas made his report

about Elena Garro. He was asked to get more specific informa-

tion and between December 10th and approximately December

25th -- this is 1965 -- he went back to Elena Garro, talked

to her, personally accompanied her to the hotel where she

claims she had stayed, and reported that information back

to the station, and yet it wasn't until October of '66, almost

a year later, that the FBI confirmed this aspect of her

story.

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Do you know why it took that long for the u.s.

Government in Mexico City to confirm that?

A

Unless Mr. Scott may. have felt that it wasn't

that important, but the answer to your question I don't know.

O. How seriously were Elena. Garro de Paz's allegations

taken in Mexico City?

A

I don't think they were taken too seriously.

Why not?

A:

Because she and her husband was -- her ex-husband

was flighty, and they -- her general reputation was one

that she dealt a lot in fantasy.

Now, after one aspect of Elena Garro de Paz's

story was confirmed, the fact that she had stayed at the

hotel, did the Agency at that point attempt to do any

follow-up investigation to confirm other aspects of the

story?

save to 1o.201

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A

I don't know.

No So 000 4.00

In other words, it seems that although she may have

been flighty, at least she appears to have been telling the

truth about staying at the hotel immediately after the

assassination.

Well, I don't think that the Agency had any assets

that could be used to confirm the allegations about the

Sylvia Duran having sexual relations with him.

Well, what about Oswall having --

You know, we used to work on it --

What about the central allegation which was

that Oswald had been at the party?

A

Pardon me?

What about the central allegation that Oswald had

been at the party?

A Well, that was another case of where we -- too

much time had gone by. We just could not -- we didn't

have any leads to work on, I think..

This was just two years after the assassination

though.

Was there a record kept of the Agency's efforts

to investigate this allegation?

Pardon me?

I Was there a record kept of the Agency's efforts

to investigate this allegation?

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A

There would have been a record kept of all the

questions

that had gone out.

A copy of that should have

been in the file, her Mexico station file.

And also her 201 file?

A

The 201 file.

So that would be her Mexico City file and her file

A

Well, not --

A

At headguarters.

Not all of the raw material would have been reported

from Mexico to headquarters unless it had some results.

But if we asked the Mexicans to help us identify

her, a

copy of it would have been included in the periodic operation-

al report on the Mexican liaison operations.

The history of the Mexico City station which you

prepared contains a statement that Oswald made his contact

with the embassies on September 26th and October 6th, 1963.

In fact --

A

October 6?

Yes.

In fact, the records suggest that he was

there and made his contacts from September 27th to October

1st.

A That's

what it should have been.. That was

probably a typographical error.

Did you review that report after it had been

prepared?

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A:

Not completely because I was

1n

the process of

being transferred from one section to another and I was

held up waiting

for that report to be typed, and it hadn't

been completely typed when I finally left, but it was my

understanding that the draft of that report was to be

retained. I went over the draft a number of times.

Do you recall that Oswald made any contacts with

these embassies on October 6th or September 26th?

A No, that would have been a mistake. I think the

dates were the 27th and Ist.

The first of October.

A

And. there would have been no material for me

to use for research other

than the same material that has

been used here. It was the transcripts.

Q..

Is it possible that Oswald called back on October

6th to find out whether he had obtained a visa?

A.

If he called back on that, we would have had it

on

the transcripts?

I Do you think --

A "No matter what time of the day or hour, I think,

because they were set up to activate when you call.

Do you have any memory of that happening?

A.

No.

l Miss Goodpasture, I have no further questions of

you today. You have been very helpful..

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Now, the Committee rules,

in

the case of executive

session hearings, are such that a witness is given five minutes

to make

a statement for the record. This is not an executive

session hearing today; this is a deposition, but if you

would like to make a statement for the record for five minutes

or less, you are free to do so at this time.

A

The only thing I would like to say is to thank you

for your patience.

A

Well, thank you very much.

And

I hope that there has been clarification,

and if there is anything else I can do, I will be willing

to come back.

Mr. Goldsmith: Thank you. Thank you very

much.

(Whereupon, at 2:37 o'clock p.m., the deposition

in the above-entitled matter was concluded.)

I have read the foregoing pages

through

_ inclusive,

which contain a correct tran-

script of the answers made by

me to the questions therein

recorded.

Signature is subject to

corrections.

ALCERSON REPORTINO COMPANY VINC

(Deponent's signature)

SERIE

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