Originator: HSCA
Document date: 04/13/1978
Document type: PAPER-TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

## Page 1

JFK Assassination System

Identification Form

Agency Information

Date:

10/14/20

AGENCY :

RECORD NUMBER :

RECORD SERIES :

AGENCY FILE NUMBER :

HSCA

180-10116-10329

TRANSCRIPTS OF EXECUTIVE SESSION HEARINGS

Document Information

ORIGINATOR:

FROM:

TO :

TITLE :

HSCA

DATE: 04/13/1978

PAGES:

SUBJECTS :

ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES

ORGANIZED CRIME

HSCA, METHODOLOGY

HSCA, ADMINISTRATION

DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: Unclassified

RESTRICTIONS:

Open in Full

CURRENT STATUS: Redact

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 08/17/1993

OPENING CRITERIA:

COMMENTS:

Box 1. Folder title: Executive session.

N9.1

DocId: 32266684

Page

1

---

## Page 2

SHORT

5212

CAPS

CTE

(Committee Meeting

EXECUTIVE SESSION

2

IZLE

CAPS

сте

Thursday, April 13, 1978

REPORTERS BUILDING.

MASMINICION,

20024

(202)

551-2345

10

2

13

is

1ớ

17

18

300

20

? 1

23

24

23

1.5. HOuSE Of Representatives, cEt

Select Committee on Assassi-

nations, La

washingtone

D.

• D

Il the committes met, pursuant to call, at 5:10 p.m., in

room 1310, Longworth Building, the Hon. Louis Stokes

(chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Stokes, Preyer, Dodd, Ford,

Edgar, Devine and McKinney.

Staff Members Present: G. Robert Blakey, G. Johnson,

M. Eberhardt, J. Wolf, A. Hausman, E. Berning, W. Cross and

I. C. Matthews.

Chairman Stokes. A quorum being present at this time,

the full committee will come to order.

The Chair recognizes Mr. Blakey.

Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, all of the issues that would

be discussed at the meating today deal with the nature of the

investigation and its progress and it would be appropriate

therefore that the meeting be in closed session.

Chairman Stokes. The Chair will entertain a motion.

Mr. McKinney.

I so move.

ALGERSON REPORTING COMPAN!. INC.

DocId: 32266684

Page

2

---

## Page 3

2

It has been properly moved that the

2

3

5

20021

(202)

10

11

12

15

17

8

100

20

?1

23

24

25

I chairman stokes.

session be closad..

The clerk will call the roll.

Miss, Berning. Mr. Stokes.

Chairman Stokes. Aye.

S. Berning. Mr. Devine.

Mr. Devine. Aye.

Miss, Berning. Mr. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer. Aye.

Mass. Berning. Mr. McKinney.

Mr. McKinney. Aye.

MesS. Berning.

No responseb

Mr. Fauntroy.

Miss. Berning.

MI. Thone.

No responsel

MEsS. Berning.

MrS. Burke.

No responsel

Miss. Berning. Mr. Sawyer.

No responsel

MisS. Berning. MI. Dodd.

MI. Dodd. Aye.

Mess. Berning. Mr. Ford.

Mr. Ford. Aye.

MusS. Berning. MI. Fithian.

No response!

ALDERSON REPORTING ECMPANY, INC.

DocId: 32266684

Page

3

---

## Page 4

3

2

3

Muss. Berning.

Mr. Edgar. Aye.

Mr. Edgar.

Mass So Berning. Seven Ayes, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Stokes. Seven members having voted in the

the committee

affirmative, this-session is now in executive session and

all members of the public are asked to be excused from the

rOOm.

10

REPORTERS

BUTLDING,

12

13

13

300

OTI STREET.

18

19

20

31

23

24

25

Mr. Blakey.

MI. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, you have before you a resolu

tion for immunity

which would authorize counsel on behalf of

the committee to appear before the court and secure immunity

orders for those people whose names are designated

the

list. These immunity orders are like those similarly secured

in the past. They are contingency orders; they would of

course not become effective unless communicated to a witness

during the course of the proceeding.

The justifications for the immunity orders appear on

attachments. In essence they are either those people involved

in the anti-Castro Cuban community or in some way connected

to organizad crime. That is the general description of them.

We have some reason to suspect that many; if not all, of them

would have good reason to claim for the self-incrimination. I

would be glad to answer any questions about them individually.

MI. Preyer (presiding). Are there any questions concern-

ing any of these?

911, Entered as full committee exhibit No. 17, see App. Is PiTO

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32266684 Page 4

---

## Page 5

4

2

3

20024

(202)

3

MSMINCTON,

10

12

13

711

STREET,

s.f1.

KEPGRTENS

15

17

18

19

20

23

24

25

I Have we been able to locate all these people?

Mr.

Blakey•

Yes.

I am sorry, Mr. Chairmar.

Mr. Wolf reminds me that one

or two are not yet located.

Mr. Preyer. If there are no questions, is there a motion

adopting this resolution?

MaKinney.

I so move.

MI. Dodd. Second.

MI. Preyer.

Moved and seconded.

MisS. Berning will call the roll.

Mr. Mckinney. The Chairman is outside going over a

letter.

Mr. Blakey.

The proxies are made out to the chairman.

Mr. Preyer. There are familiar names in here. You might

advise me of the nature of these people.

Mr. Blakey. The nature of the fact is that we are begin-

ning to move into the interrogation of those people who have

been the subject of previous testimony.

Miss. Berning. Mr. Stokes.

Chairman Stokes. Aye.

MEss. Berning. Mr. Devine.

MI. Devine. Aye.

Miss. Berning. MI. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer. Aye.

Muss, Berning. Mr. McKinney.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32266684 Page

5

---

## Page 6

5

2

3

(202)

554-23115

5

REPORTERS

BUTIDING, MASHTNGTON,

12

13

15

ITH STREET,

17

18

19

20

23

24

25

П Mr.

Mckinney. Aye.

MisS. Berning. Mr. Fauntroy.

Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy.

MisS. Berning. Mr. Thone.

No responsed

MusS. Berning. Mrs. Burke.

Chairman Stokes.

Aye by proxy.

Miss. Berning. Mr. Sawyer.

[No responsed

Mass. Berning. MI. Doda.

MI. Dodd: Aye.

MisS. Berning. Mr. Ford.

Mr. Ford. Aye:

Muss. Berning. Mr. Fithian.

Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy.

Miss. Berning. MI. Edgar.

Mr. Edgar. Aye.

• MisS. Berning. Ten Ayes, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Stokes. Ten members having voted in the affirm-

ative, the resolution is adopted.

Mr. Blakey.

MI. Blakey. ' Mr. Chairman, the next question that requires

vote of the committee deals with a resolution authorizing

counsel on behalf of the committee to appear before court and

secure letters for interrogatories. This is a necessity which

ALDERSON RETORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32266684

Page 6

---

## Page 7

2

3

554-2345

5

ó

ITH STREET.

S.V.

REPORTERS BUILDING,

wASHINGTON, D.C.

$

9

io

12

13

14

15

• 17

18

19

.20

23

24

25

6

is an outgrowth of the committee's trip to Portugal. The

portuguese authorities have requested these letters, the

nature of which is explained in an attachment, to enable the

staff in a subsequent trip to Portugal to speak with

Portuguese citizens.

To do this we have to go to court to

get the appropriate papers.

I Fos the committee to go to court, there must be an

appropriate resolution. The individuals whose names appear

in the resolution are those individuals we have identified as

possible witnesses in Portugal. As you will recall, James

Earl Ray spent some of his overseas sojourn in that country

and these are people in some way connected to him.

Chairman Stokes. Okay. Is there any further discussion

on the resolution?

Any questions?

MI. Devine. I move the adoption.

Alan

Mr. Preyer. I would just comment that Ader Hausman and

Eddie

# Evans have done a very good job in ordar to get access to

these witnesses and it has been tough.

Chairman Stokes.

That is good to know.

If there is nothing further at this time, the clerk will

call the roll.

Miss. Berning. Mr. Stokes.

Chairman Stokes.

Aye.

MisS. Berning.

Mr. Devine.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY: INC.

DocId: 32266684

Page

7

---

## Page 8

7

2

3

5

300

ITH STRENT,

S.V. KEPONTERS BUILDING, MASHUGTON,

n. C.

9

2

3

.17

18

19

23

24

23

9/ Mr.

Devine. Aye.

Miss. Berning. MI. Preyer.

Mr. Preyer. Aye.

MusS. Berning. Mr. MoKinney.

Mr. McKinney: Aye.

MESS. Berning. Mr. Fauntroy.

Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy..

Mass. Berning. Mr. Thone.

[No response!

Miss Berning. Mrs. Burke.

Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy.

Misss. Berning. Mr. Sawyer.

No responsel

Miss. Berning. Mr. Dodd.

Mr. Dodd.

Aye.

Miss. Berning. MI. Ford.

Mr. Ford. Aye.

Mossa Berning. Mr. Fithian.

Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy.

MisS. Berning. Mr. Edgar.

MI. Edgar. Aye.

MESS. Berning. Ten Ayes, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Stokes.

Ten members having voted in the

affirmative, the resolution is adoptad.

Mr. Blakey•

ALTEREON

PEPORTING COMPANY. ING

DocId: 32266684

Page 8

---

## Page 9

3

ITH STREEt

s.11.

REPORTERS DUCIDING.

DaSHINETON, 0. с.

20024

(202)

551 - 2345

3

10

11

12

13

14

13

19

20

23

24

23

8

Blakey.

Mr. Chairman, there are no further matters

that would require a vote by the committee. There are several

matters of information that might be appropriate to draw to

the committee's attention. The first is an informational

matter.

MI. Ortez appeared before the Kennedy Subcommittee this

week and ha is now being held by the United States Marshals.

Mr. Fithian expressed some interest in perhaps pursuing

further investigation with him. If we were to do that, we

would have to keep him here for a while. Our own recommen-

dation is that we not pursue Mr. Ortez at least at this time

until ve have gotten further information back from the Cuban

government.

I didn't want to say anything to the Marshals about

taking him back or not taking him back until I brought it

up to the committee's

attention, and really unless I hear an

expression from the committee now as a whole that they would

want to take some action with him now as opposed to later, I'

think it would be appropriate for us to release him. I would

say that euphemistically since he is serving a 205 year term

for airplane hijacking and it is doubtful that he is going to

go anywhere, but nonetheless

he will be available to the

committee really on command from here on out.

Chairman Stokes. I would think that that explanation

ought to suffice, and as long as he is available to the

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

DocId: 32266684 Page 9

---

## Page 10

9

2

3

554-2345

20024

3

RETORTERS

BUTInTIG,

MOSITISTON.

10

12

13

15

300

7TH

STREET.

17

18

20

23

24

25

committee

Fithian will take note if there should be

no problem.

Blakey•

The next point which is again one of

information, the committee had voted to certify to the floor

Powell

MI. Pad for contempt. During the recess we forwarded a

letter to the Speaker bringing this matter to his attention.

The committee should be made aware of the fact that the

speaker suggested that since the recess is so short that this

matter be brought to the floor and it is my understanding that

the Chairman will bring the matter to the floor if not next

week the first part of the following week. The committee

should be informed of that.

The next matter is a delicate one; it is a continuation

of the conversation the committee had several days ago and it

deals with the possibility that Mr. Lane might represent the

entire Ray family and other people and that in that represen-

tation he might attempt to orchestrate the testimony befora

the committee. As the facts are developing, they do not

appear to be as sinister as we thought they might have been.

We have now learned that Mr. Lane will not represent

John Ray. We have also learned that Mr. Lane will not repre-

sent Carol Pepper. So what was looking like

it was going to

be very sinister is currently not looking that way at all and

perhaps this cup is passing in front of us.

The source of our information we had hoped would be

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32266684 Page 10

---

## Page 11

2

3

558-2345

7

20024

REPORTERS

BUILDING.

MASHTUGTON,

10

12

13

14

15

300

ITH STREET.

17

18

19

20

23

25

10

mature today and a positiva recommendation could be made to

the committee. It now looks like the convarsations between

Mr. Lane and the various

witnesses will not take place until

this weekend and consequently the staff will not be in a

position to make a firm recommendation to the committes that

it take some action until

naxt week. This conversation or

this information is brought to your attention so that you

could be fully apprised of the progress. We remain suspi-

cious of the circumstances. We ara perhaps less convinced

that they are imminent.

I I would also draw to the committee's attention that Mr.

Lane will be appearing representing witnesses

next week and

it would be appropriate at that time to begin some negotiations

with him for at least one more trip to flush him out and to

seE James Earl Ray before a final decision would be made by

the committee whether Mr. Ray should be brought to an exacu-

tive session or brought only to the public sessions sometime

this summer.

I, of course, welcome any suggestions from the committee

on those negotiations.

Hearing none, I would at least begin to talk with Mi.

Lane if that is possible on Monday or Tuesday in reference to

making one more trip to flush him out, perhaps including in

the contingent action one or more members of the committee to

¡render a certain degree of solemnity since it will probably be

ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC.

DocId: 32266684

Page

11

---

## Page 12

11

554-2145

ó

REPORTERS

BUILDING,

MACHINCTON.

D.C:. 20024

13

15

17

300

TTH STRELT,

19

20

N

23

24

25

the

final trip that it occasions. I think the details of

that can be laft to the negotiations next week.

I It is not clear that he would permit anyone to come in

but certainly we should make every effort to keep the lines

open with Mr. Lane and certainly make every effort to talk

to James Earl Ray until it is closed by the other side and

certainly not foreclosed by the committee.

Chairman Stokes.

MI. Edgar.

MI. Edgar. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to

indicate my support for trying to get yourself or some other

member of the congressional delegation here to participate in

that last final cross

examination because we don't have any

quarantee as to what events may transpire with James Earl Ray

and I think it is important for us to get some sense from our

own membership as to some of his answers to the specific

question. I also think it

would elevate

discussion from the

staff level that we have had on several occasions to moving

to the point where the committee has to deal with it direct.

Chairman Stokes. Do any other members have any comments?

Mr. McKinney.

Tharssis

the only question I woude have, is

this

has

what would you do under the conditions that Lane pee orches-

trated?

Mr. Blakey. Well, the limit that we face, Mr. Mckinney,

is that basically we have a one witness situation, one person

is telling us what is going on, and four or five people

ars

ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

DocId: 32266684

Page 12

---

## Page 13

12

3

20024

(202)

554-2345

7

REPORTERS

BUILDING.

MASHINGTON,

! 1

:2

3

15

You STREET.

17

18

19

20

22

23

24

involved on the other side and so we have a conflict of

testimony between one witness and Lane and the other people.

That is not in prosecutive terms a very good case: Our rules

will not permit us to do what a prosacutor would normally do

in this situation; that is, wire the informant for sound, put

a tape recorder on him.

If The remedy that we would have would be if Mr. Lane is in

fact not given simple advice but orchestrating testimony,. that

would amount to an obstruction of a congressional investigation

which is

a Federal felony. If the evidence that comes to our

attention is sufficiently strong to believe that that is what

he is doing, one option that would be available to the commit-

tee would be to bring this to the attention of the Attorney

General and the Attorney General could Perely, consistent with

the law of ethics and the general morality, be involved at

least to the extent of wiring the informant for sound and

gathering the evidence for the purposes of a criminal prose-

cution.

This would at least leave the committee in the posture of

knowing accurately what happened even though we learned that

incident to a criminal investigation pursued by the Department.

There are obvious reasons why that should not be done.

One of

them is that the Department of Justice is the subject of this

investigation and it seems somewhat ironic that they should be

brought in as a participant in the investigation. It is a hard

ALDERSON FEBORTING COMPANY. INC.

DocId: 32266684 Page 13

---

## Page 14

2

3

ó

7

OTH STREET,

S.H.

REPORTERS

BUILDING,

MASHINGTON,

10

12

413

15

16

17

19

20

22

23

24

23

13

choice and I would hope that the suspicions we have of what

Mr. Lane's conduct is turn out to be unfounded. I would rathei

believe him to be an ethical and a lawful law abiding person

and if we cannot get evidence warranting serious action on the

part of the committee indicating the contrary, then I suspect

we will not have to face the decision

of whether to bring the

Department of Justica into it.

I There was only one other issue that I thought that the

committee might want at this time to be briefed on and that

is the status of the Cuban trip. When I noticed the people

who were here, I see that several of you have already been

briefed on the Cuba trip or have already gone and so I am not

necessarily of a mind to balabor a point that you are already

familiar with. If Mr. Ford or Mr. McKinney would want a

private briefing later, it would not necessarily have to be

on the record.

MI.

McKinney. Yes.

Mr. Blakey. I would have at this time no further matters

to bring bafore the committee. I obviously am open to any

questions about the status of the investigation or other issues

that you might want to bring up.

Mr. Ford.. Mr. Chairman, I do have an issue I would like

to bring up, before the committee while the chief counsel is

here.

Earlier this week one of the staff people with the

DocId: 32266681 Page 14

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

---

## Page 15

14

3

5518-2345

ó

7

8

MASHTNGTON.

10

11

12

13

15

ITH STREET,

s.H.

17

•18

20

23

24

23

committee made contact with one of my staff persons in my

office and certain innuendos were made about a report on Ed

Redditt that something had leaked from my office to one of the

networks there in my

district, a national network, I am not

sure which one.

If I do want the committee to know that my staft persons are

not privy to the information of this committee at all and I

thought that maybe the staff person should have made contact

with me personally and asked whether or not the information

got out of my office pertaining to the statement that Ed

Redditt had made before the committee on the King assassina-

tion. I was not aware of the statement at the close of

business that day.

I was there all during the early afternoon session. I

left to catch a plane.. That weekend while I was home in

Memphis, Ed Redditt and ons of the networks locally in my

district made contact with me about two matters, one relating

to whether or not I would make a motion before the full

committee to remove the earlier

statements that he had made

before he came back and apologized to me and I guess

at that

point a true statement.

But the television station also called me in regard to

one of the staff people that I questioned on that particular

day about an incident that happened in Memphis while he was

down investigating the King assassination. I told him that

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

DocId: 32266684 Page 15

---

## Page 16

15

20024 (202)

554-2345

3

ITH STREET..

s.H.

RIPORTERS

BUTIDING,

MASHINGTON,

12

13

15

17

18

19

20

23

24

25

I would not give him any information and that was it, but

when the staff person called on my staff

cartain not

allegations but certain statements were made.

HI just want for the record to say that in the future I

would hope that

the committee would make contact with me

inasmuch as I have kept this information from my staff and

any information at all that would come from the office would

certainly come from me. Giving an impression to my staff

paople that I am dishonest of something, I would hops that in

the fugure we would try to correct that, talk with me directly,

about it rather than the innuendos here and there as to what

was said.

Mr. Blakey.

MI. Ford, I obviously regret any implication

that was carried by anything the staff did. As I am sure you

are aware, the matter of how that memorandum leaked is a

serious concern to the committse

certainly the committee

staff. It has already affected our ability to conduct the

investigation in Memphis. Our witnesses have told our inves-

tigators: "How can you guarantee me confidentiality? Look

at

what happened to Ed Redditt."

Fortunately that has not made the papers in Washington

yet and to our knowledge the Federal investigative agencies

we are dealing with. The FBI and the CIA are probably not

yet aware that that leaked although we have been in an

extremely delicate process and are negotiating with them for

ALTERSON REPORTINO COMPANY, INC.

DocId: 32266684

Page 16

---

## Page 17

2

3

==

554-2345

7

20024

10

?

• 13

P'TA STREET,

S.l.

REPORTERS

BUTIDING.

15

17

18

17

20

23

24

25

16

release to the committee of classified and other information

and if they were of the impression that it would be leaked

over here, we won't get it. So this is a very sarious matter

and it is one that I really was not fully prepared to discuss

today.

I I have directed the people in Memphis to gather the

maximum information they can about what was said and what

was done there by the news media and then we are in the

process now of trying to ascertain averybody who had access

to that memo.

The memo was drafted for the entire committee.

It apparently was not given to the entire committee so there

were a limited number of copies. As soon as we have prepared

an analysis as best we can of everything that happened, it

will be appropriate to bring it back to the committee for

whatever the committee wants to do.

Chairman Stokes. Okay. Anything further?

Mr. Blakey. No, sir.

MI. Preyer. MI. Chairman, I was about to make my final

motion. Seeing the condition of the gentleman on my right

(Laughter], I move we adjourn.

Mr. Dodd. I will second that motion, I'll tell you.

I'm

tired.

Chairman Stokes. The meeting is then adjourned subject

to the call of the Chair.

Whereupon, at 5:34

p.m.

the committee adjournedy

ALDERSON REPORTNO COMPANY INC.

DocId: 32266684

Page 17

---