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157-10005-10250

2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992

Date: 10/05/93

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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY

: SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER

:157-10005-10250

RECORDS SERIES :

ftd 3/14/94

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : R654

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : SSCIA*:

FROM

:

TO

TITLE

TRANSCRIPT/RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS/EXHIBITS

DATE: 06/25/75

PAGES

: 61

SUBJECTS :

PAGES 8-68 OF TESTIMONY BY SARNO, ALFRED J.

DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT

CLASSIFICATION: T

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS

:P

DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 10/05/93

OPENING CRITERIA :

COMMENTS :

BOX 258-11

[R] - ITEM IS RES

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Cuba

Ohe Anitro Statre Ornate

Report of Proceedings

Unauthoriied Disclosure Subjeet

to Criminal Sanctions

R654

AMENTONE

5l112

SSCI DO

258-11

TIES

CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO

DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR

RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT

AS SANITIZED

X 16 MAR

88(8)

Friday, June 25, 1975

Sahingtoa, D. C

(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over

to the Committee for destruction)

WARD & PAUL

410 FIRST STREET, S. E.

WASHINGTON, D. C. 20008

(208) 544-8000

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TESTIMONY OF

Alfred J. Sarno

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for lAMuTS?

Mr. Sarno.

I think from December, 1961 or January, 1962

to September, 1967. Then from June -- August, 1969 to

September, 1969.

Mr. Wides. Now let me go back, and can you give us a

very brief summary of your positions with the Agency prior to

that? I don't mean detailed as to what you were doing.

Mr. Sarno. I joined the Agency in September of 1951.

Mr. Wides. Yes?

Mr. Sarno. I was assigned to three countries before I

hit Florida.

Mr. Wides. All in the Western Hemisphere Division?

Mr. Sarno. All in the Western Hamisphere.

Mr. Wides. So you had rather long stations in each of

those, three of four years?

MI. Sarno. (Nods in the affirmative)

Mr. DeMarco. When did you become an American citizen?

Mr. Sarno. I was born in Ohio.

Mr. DeMarco. Had you been stationed with Mr. Phillips

in Cuba before you came to Miami, or ware you in Cuba before

you came to Miami?

Mr. Sarno. Yes.

Mr. Wides. And that is when Me Noel, was the Chief?

Mr. Sarno.

anim

Noel

was the Chief.

Mr. Wides. And you had contact with Mr. Phillips then?

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MI. Wides. You never heard of any plots, nor of any

arrested people attempting to shoot a bazooka when he was

giving a speech at Havana Stadium?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides.

Let me go to the period when you went to

Florida.

When you first came here, that was before Station Chief

Noel. had moved the whole station to Miami?

MIs Sarno.

Noel

wasn't there. When I arrived in Florida,

Noel, was not then -- no, sir, he was not the station chief.

Mr. Wides. Who was the station chief?

Mr. Sarno. I don't think I should give you his name.

I don't know. You have the rest of all of them, but I can't

recall -

I can state that there were two station chiefs between

Noel

and Shackley, three of them, in fact.

Mr. Wides. Shacklay came in when, 1963?

Mr. Sarno.

162.

Mr. Wides.

When in '62?

Mr. Sarno. I think the spring of '62 is when it was.

Mr. Wides.

Ihen was he replaced by Mr. Dimmer?

Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was in '64, I think.

June, July, I think, something like that, of '64.

Mr. Wides. And then Mr. Dimmer was replaced in '66 by

Paul hines?

audaciat

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Mr. Sarno.

HE nesty

Mr. Wides.

And then Mr. Esterline replaced Mr. Himes,

or was there someone between?

Mr. Sarno.

Nobody replaced

Mr. Esterline did not replace MI.

fines.

times,

because they closed up the station.

Mr. Wides.

We understand that the station was operating

very recently.

Mr. Sarno. Well, I'm not saying - you see, the station

you spoke to before, you spoke of, went out of business in

June of 1960 when Mr. Mines left.

Mr. Wides. I see.

Now, what was the relationship between yourself and the

station? Administratively, and in terms of reporting, when

you first went down there.

Mr. Sarno. When I first went down there, I was outside.

I believe it was concerning clearances to get me into the

station, because I had never been working in a station before,

so there were special clearances. So at that time, those two

months you're speaking of, I attended a course and I may have

been sent out once of twice to interview a Cuban refugee or

one of our agents who had left Cuba.

MI. Wides. And then you set up the AMDTS program? Did

you start that project; or was that started when you came in?

Mr. Sarno. It had been started, the nucleus had been

formed at that time.

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Mr. Wides. And except where there's a question of an

agent under cover who

would be possibly exposed to harm or

that kind of thing in regard to the mention of other Agency

people, certainly at the level of Mr. Shackley or other

officials, Mr. Dimmer, and so forth, that the general procedures

have been that people at the Agency of retirees have not

refused to disclose names.

Now, you certainly have your rights -

Mr. Sarno. No, sir. I am not questioning you, or anythind,

except I've been in this business a long time and I've never

mentioned anybody's name. Now if somebody were to tell me,

if Seymour Bolton were to tell me that I could tell you all the

names of all my supervisors and everything, it's perfectly all

right. But I've never mentioned a name and I feel that I

shouldn't mention a name.

MI. Wides. Well, we may have to take a break and do that,

but let me go on.

With regard to the amors program, the More Cubans were

not contract agents of the station, is that correct?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. They were proprietary employees essentially of

LASER, essentially?

Mr. Sarno. LASt was a group -- that proprietary was

set up in September of 1969. Prior to that time they ware a

bunch of Cubans just living down in Miami.

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Mr. Wides. And what was their relationship to the Agency

through you?

Mr. Sarno. They were a group of Cuban exiles who were

being funded to collect information, intelligence information,

on Cuba.

Mr. Wides.. They were paid agents?

Mr. Sarno. They were paid agents.

Mr. Wides. Some of them received a fairly sophisticated

training in tradecraft, in some cases communications!

sincericeot

operations with regard to a station in Florida, and so forth.

is that not correct?

Mr. Sarno. Sophisticated equipment, yes, sir.

Mr. Wides. And tradecraft, general tradecraft trainira?

Mr. Sarno. General tradecraft training, yes, sir.

Conmunications.training = well, most of tham 'weren't

communicators, so they reguired very little if they did

receive training.

. Mr. Wides. Would that put them in a little bit more

official status of some sort, whatever the catagory in called.

than simply being a paid informant?

.. ...

Mr. Sarno. No, sir. They were just like paid Informants

excapt we provided them funds to operate with.

They are no more - they are not contract, we did not

have then undar contract.

Mr. Wides. But they would still get training?

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Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

Ms. Wides. And the program first operated where? Where

did you physically locate? Were you at the University of

Miami, at the Naval Air Station at the begining?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. Where were you at first?

Mr. Sarno. Are you speaking of our station? Our station

was physically at the At Station but these Cubans did not

know where the station was.

Mr. Wides. And you just contacted them separately?

Mr. Sarno. They had houses that they rented and they worked

out of different houses, and there were many of them, so I

can't recall them.

Mr. Wides. Did you have an office facility apart from the

station?

MI. Sarno. Myself?

MI. Wides. Yes.

Mr. Sarno.

On one occasion, for a very short period, I

had an office:

Mr. Wides. Where was the

chich Cosporation?

Mr. Sarno.

the renth corporation

was located on the

Couch compas los Miami.

Mr. Wides. Apart from the station?

MI. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. That was a cover?

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Mr. Sarno. That was the station.

MI. Wides. And what was the mission and purpose of

Anor's when you first started out, as indicated in the project

outline?

Mr. Sarno. They were to collect intelligence on Cuba,

debrief refugees and provide bodies for any possible operations

required by the station.

MI. Wides. They were to debrief refugees?

MI. Sarno. Debrief refugees, collect and evaluate, maintain

records.

MI. Wides. Was there a division of the AMurS members into

two groups, with only a small group involving the debriefing

of Cuban refugees?

Mr. Sarno. Well, it wasn't too small a group, but if you

would speak of the whole organization overall, yes, it was a

small group.

Mr. Wides. And at what point did you set up any cover:

apart from the station as a proprietary or notional company,

in between the Ayuret people and the Miami station? In other

words, were the companies prior to the Latin America Goatal

scarci

company that preceded it, in time?

Mr. Sarno. In the time that I handled them, which is

up to the LASERs

I think there were three, three covers all

told, or perhaps four. I think we had our debriefing, you

know, under one cover.

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Mr. Wides. That was from the start? You had a separate

cover for the debriefing?

Mr. Sarno. Well, from the start we didn't have a place

for them, and it wasn't pulled together as a debriefing unit.

When a large flow of refugees started to come in is when we set

up the special unit.

Mr. Wides. When was that?

Mr. Sarno. Well, they cut off --

Mr. Wides.

'64, '63?

Mr. Sarno. It could have been '62, late '62 or '63. And

before, we used to send our debriefers, they ware within tha

Nuts group, specialists in debriefing, area specialists is

the kind we used. And we would go out to the reception center

and check around and see who had come out of the particular

area.

Mr. Wides.

At Opa-Locka?

Mr. Sarno. At Opa-Locka.

And our debriefers would go out and check around with the

people who came in and try to spot somebody who would be.

interesting to interviaw, debrief, concerning the particular

area. And so they usually picked them up in a car and either

took them to a restaurant or took them to a motel or something

and would debrief them. And then we found that it would be

better to get a building for them to be in where we located

them altogether, where they could prepare their reports and

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everything.

Mr. Wides. And so that's when you first set up the

proprietary for the smaller debriefing component of Alurs?

Mr. Sarno. Well, I set up the proprietaries, the notionary

company for a small debriefing office, and at the same time,

we rented a building, a larger building, and they used to

operate in Coral Gables, received some publicity and we moved

them out of Coral Gables to near the airport in a building where

the main office was, where this main office was, where these

reports from the debriefers or any other information was

collected would be processed, typed in finished form, translated

and provided to us.

MI. Wides. About how many people did you have in Anurse

Cubans at that time?

Mr. Sarno. Well, that's difficult to say.

Mr: Wides. 150? Would you say 150?

Mr. Sarno. I would say inside, outside, it could be

close to 150.

Mr. Wides. Did you have more than a dozen of so working

in the component on debriefing?

• Mr. Sarno. As I recall, at one time - as I recall it,

we had about 22, 23 people working in debriefing.

Mr. Wides. And apart from those Cubans, you had a staff

under you of assistants and secretaries who were Agency

assigned personnel?

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• Mr. Sarno. Yes.

Mr. Wides.

What kind of staff did you have?

Mr: Sarno.

Well, it started off originally since we

weren't big, I started off with one secretary, and it eventually

ended up that there were

one or two Intel assistants -

Mr. Wides.

These

were Agency personnel?

Mr. Sarno.

Agency personnel.

-. and two or three case officers.

Mr. Wides. The case officers handled segments of the

AMUTS?

Mr. Sarno. Segments of the AMurS

Mr. Wides. Now, the other, speaking very roughly, hundred

and fifty or so logs. Cubans, you said some twenty were

involved when the debriefing program intensified. What were

the other hundred-odd Cubans involved in?

Mr. Sarno. Well, we had records personnel, we had

I would say six or seven who only worked in records and main-

taining of files, and general index cards, and that was it.

Then we had what we called our reports section which may have

had about fifteen people, twenty people, who wrote reports,

checked them out, cross-referenced, and everything else that

was involved in that.

Mr. Wides. What kind of reports did they write? What

were they writing reports about?

Mr. Sarno. Economic -- whatever they were learning from

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against Cuba, and had weapons they weren't supposed to have.

Mr. Wides. Like Alpha-66?

Mr. Sarno. Alpha-66, there were many of them.

And we usually had one of our outside typas, either

recruit or get next to an individual of the group and he would

penetrate the group himself to report to us what they were

doing.

MI. Wides. Do you recall the flights of the Diaz, or one

of the Diz brothers, over Havana dropping leaflets?

Mr. Sarno. What date was it?

Mr. Wides. I believe it was quite early, and it was not

in connection with the lurs.

Mr. Sarno. I know the Diaz brothers.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall hearing of flights with - one

of them with Frank Sturgis over Havana dropping leaflets?

MI. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. It was fairly widely known.

Mr. Sarno. Well, I didn't get into Cubans until maybe

it was June of '60, but the only leaflets I ever saw fly over

Cuba was the day before the invasion. Those were the only

ones I saw.

MI. Wides. When you were in Miami, did you have any

contact with Frank Sturgis, Frank Fiorini?

Mr. Sarno. Never, never. To my knowledge, he never worked

for us.

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MI. Wides. Not getting back to the bulk of the Amuras

group, apart from the reporting on refugees and the efforts

to keep tabs, which I guess

is a summary of what you are

saying on what exile groups might be doing that the government

might otherwise not know about, is it correct that there was

surveillance of the Miami community generally with regard to

possible Castro agents?

Mr. Sarno. Not that I know of.

Mr. Wides. There was no counterintelligence program in

the amors?

Mr. Sarno. We had a counterintelligence component in the

AMUTS: Program.

Mr. Wides. Why don't you describe that?

Mr. Sarno. The counterintelligence program consisted of

very capable Cubans who knew of the former -- the set-up of

the intelligence agency inside of Cuha, so if anybody ware to

come out, any rafugee were to come out and name an individual

that was a friend of theirs that we knew or suspected of

working for the internal security which was the DSE or their

external service, the DGI, our counterintelligence group or

one of the individuals would go out and debrief the fallow

and collect names, and prepare reports on it, and they maintained

files, and that is what it is.

They never got under a surveillance of any of them, because

once a report was written they suspected somebody. They maintain-

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a file of them, and when Cuban refugees would come in, they

would receive lists of, names to check in their files, and if

they suspected one, then they would gather all of the

information possible on this individual, prepare a report,

name their sources, and they would pass it to the station.

The station in turn would prepare a memorandum and send it to

the bureau.

Mr. Wides. Is it your sworn testimony that you never knew

of any surveillances or efforts to penetrate groups for

counterintelligence purposes by Cubans under your supervision?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no. You're speaking of penetrating

groups, yes. They penetrated groups. Surveillance -- I never

sent them out on a mission to surveil anybody concerning whether

they were suspect or whatever.

Mr. Wides. Was there any surveillance of Cubans in Miami

conducted by -- whether it was in cooperation with the Bureau

or not - conducted by any of the ANtS; Cubans that you ware

aware of?

Mr. Sarno. I cannot recall if there ever was.

Mr. Wides. I don't mean a specific one.

Mr. Sarno.

I don't recall ever giving them any assignments.

Mr. Wides.' I'm not talking about assignments, I'm

talking about whether you're aware of their conducting -

Mr. Sarno. As I say, I do not recall them conducting

any surveillance on anybody.

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Mr. Wides.

Any telephone taps?

Mr. Sarno. Never, any telephone taps, we didn't have

telephone tap capability.

Mr. Wides. Any photography?

Mr. Sarno.

We had a photographer.

Mr: Wides.

When was he used? In what circumstances?

Mr. Sarno.

Well, the biggest majority of his work was

to copy certain documents.

Mr. Wides. I mean photographic surveillance.

Mr. Sarno. There may have been. I really can't state

which one he was used on if he was ever used for photographic

surveillance.

Mr. Wides. Which what he was used on?

Mr. Sarno. I mean if he was used on photographic

surveillance. I don't recall ever ordering him out on photo-

graphic surveillance.

MI. Wides. Do you recall if there ever was any photo-

graphic surveillance carried out by any of the voys?

Mr. Sarno. I have no recollection. I do not recall.

Mr. Wides. Were you getting reports of any sort, whether

you would characterize it as surveillance or not, on people

who had already come and were in Miami as distinct from the

interview reports when the refugees first came?

Isn't it correct that the flute, personnel were providing

you with reports on Cubans who were already in Miami?

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Mr. Sarno.

Yes, sir.

MI. Wides.

Would you describe that program?

Mr. Sarno. Certainly. As I said, they penetrated these

groups, they would go around and then they would sit and talk

and as you would call it, the surveillance, the fact that they

penetrated, they would sit at the table and report on the

individual and what the individual said and what they were

planning. We call it penetration.

To me, surveillance is to put two men on the street

following somebody from one place to another.

Mr. Wides. Were there ever occasions when the station

was suspicious as to whether Cubans in Miami might be Castro

agents that you were aware of?

Mr. Sarno. Many.

Mr. Wides. Did they ever ask for any assistance in the

Amass group in trying to keep tabs on those individuals or

to test their suspicions?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. Who would do that?

Mr. Sarno. It would be the CI section of the station.

Mr. Wides. You don't recall any situation in which -

Mr Sarno. In which Alon

I participated? No, sir.

Mr. Wides. - working with the FBI:

Mr. Sarno. The FBI occasionally would ask for the

services of one of the

ANUTS

but it was mainly not to surveil

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anybody. It was to provide information to them because their

name would come up somewhere in a case.

Mr. Wides. What kind of assistance? You mean more than

just a chance to interview them?

MI. Sarno. No, just interview.

They never used them to

run a man on the street of anything like that, no, sir.

They tried to get one individual one time and they didn't know

that he worked for us and they tried to hire him and he came

back and reported it. We had to advise them that he was

already working for us.

Mr. Wides. And you had 115 men andiàll --

Mr. Sarno. There were women also, sir.

MI. Wides. And women, and all they were doing was

interviewing refugees and writing reports on exile potential

activities against Cuba?

Mr. Sarno. I would say that was the biggest majority of

their job.

Mr. Wides. What was the rest of it?

MI. Sarno. They also went out, if our station was going

to run an operation and they needed X amount of bodies, certain

specialized personnel, the nuts would go and locate the

personnel, talk to them, spot them, get their personal history

from them, send it in, and the, people would be traced out and

checked and cleared and eventually introduced to the station

case officer who would use them in our operations.

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Mr. Wides. Who arranged for the training at the training

station at Parolen(?), was that used?

MI. Sarno. For whom?

MI. Wides. When the MorS people received training, some

various kind of tradecraft, who would arrange that, yourself?

Mr. Sarno. December, 1961 when I took it over there were

only three cases of AMURS who were sent away for special

training. Three cases, three individuals.

One came here to washington, the other was going to be

loaned to a station overseas. He came up and received training.

The majority of the training given to the AMiTS was down in

Miami, Florida.

Mr. Wides. And what kind was that?

MI. Sarno. Basic tradecraft, reports writing --

Mr. Wides. Did they ever get training in surveillance?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, they received training in surveillance.

Mr. Widas. Why did they get that?

Mr. Sarno. Well, that is part of their program of

training them as a group.

MI. Wides. Even though there was no use of them for

surveillance purposes?

Mr. Sarno. I do not recall, sir, ever sending them out

on a surveillance.

Mr. DeMarco. Who conducted the training?

Mr. Sarno. Our Training Branch, personnel from our

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Training Branch.

MI. DeMarco. From Washington?

Mr. Sarno.

Yes.

MI. Wides. You say the majority of the training was in

Florida. What period are we talking about, throughout the

period?

Mr. Sarno. It could be spread over. Reports writing,

for instance, when the Agency, or when the station was being

cut back in personnel, this group used to produce tons of

reports, and when our station was being cut, the staff was

being cut, I convinced the Chief of Station into having the

reports officers, for instance, trained to prepare reports

which would require very little editing or preparation once

it arrived in the station, which would take a

load off the

station, and it was agreed to.

Mr. Wides. You arranged in general for the training or

the training office?

Mr. Sarno. I never trained.

MI. Wides. But they worked through you administratively?

Mr. Sarno. Yes.

Mr. Wides. So you were familiar with all the training

Amyts personnel would have got?

Mr. Sarno. I would say all of the training that they

received during the period I was with them, with the exception

of that one year there, and also I must state that although I

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Mr. Wides. There were some new people coming in?

Mr. Sarno. Yes:

Some of the people would move, they got

a job that paid them more, but there were very few that came

in after the original, say about 1964 I would say it was well

established and very few dropped out of were taken aboard there-

after.

Mr. Wides. They all got what you referred to earlier as

basic tradecraft training?

Mr. Sarno. No, not all of them.

Mr. Wides. How many?

Mr. Sarno. There were very few of them. in the original

group.

I never had them trained in basic tradecraft. The

original group which I took over which, if I am not mistaken,

was about eighteen of them, and I understand that prior to

the Bay of Pigs -

Mr. Wides. Eighteen in wors or eighteen in training?

MI: Sarno. Eighteen in AMulS all told.

I understood that prior to the Bay of Pigs these AuTS

had been given basic tradecraft training. I never once sent

them out to receive basic tradecraft training.

Mr. Wides. After you came -- when you came there were

eighteen ANTS, and eventually we're talking about 150, roughly,

or more?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wides. And you never knew of any of the people who

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joined ANurs

after you took over getting general tradecraft?

MI. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir..

Mr. Wides. And to your knowledge it was only report

writing?

Mr. Sarno.

Well, they trained them in each one of the

sections, and I didn't train the debriefers, so if a naw man

was hired and he was put in a debriefing, he was trained u

usually by the Chief of the Debriefing Group, he was put in

there to work along with other debriefers to catch onto the

thing.

Mr. Wides. Now your testimony with regard to surveillance

training, who issued that, or how many people?

Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was four or five.

Mr. Wides. When you first came, or shortly therafter?

MI. Sarno. Yes, it was all at the - now, now, just one

second, because I went in surveillance training mysalf.

I don't recall whether this four or five whom we trained

in surveillance were trained while I had them or they were

trained before I took them.

Mr. Wides. Now after that, those four or five, no other

anions, people to your knowledge received any surveillance

training, is that your testimony?

MI. Sarno. That is true, sir.

Mr. Wides. What about picks and locks?

Mr. Sarno. Nobody.

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Mr. Wides. That you know of received --

MI. Sarno. Not a single one that I know of.

Mr. Wides. Did you know anybody at AMurs who had

capability of any previous experience at picks and locks,

surreptitious entry?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides.

You were not aware of anyone at AMiT'S having

that capability?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. You never discussed it with anyone at the

station?

Mr. Sarno. Possibly.

Mr. Wides. Well, let me ask the question, the

capabilities in the area of surreptitious entry or picking

locks and no part of urs people in all those years?

MI. Sarno. No, sir.

MI. Wides. Were the group that were locat d in your

homestate that were involved in the interception of any

traffic, radio traffic or Cuban, were they under your supervision?

Mr. Sarno. They were originally under my supervision,

and later the station brought an individual down from Head-

quarters and took over that operation.

MI. Wides. And when was that?

Mr. Sarno. Well, the station always had somebody at the

station who was reviewing all of their work and passing

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instructions. I handled them for a long time.

Mr. Wides. Until roughly?

Mr. Sarno. Until roughly the arrival of MeDinner.

You

have the date there. I think Mrg DingerS; the one who brought

down the fellow from Headquarters.

Mr. Wides. And these people received some training

regarding the use of intercept equipment even if they had

some experience as radio operators, isn't that true?

Mr. Sarno. Sir, I really don't know.

I know that I never brought an instructor down to train

them in the use of radio equipment.

These individuals had

worked in this work in Cuba before they came out --

Mr. Wides. In Intercept

work. like this?

Mr. Sarno. Infintercept work, yes. We had two very

brilliant fellows who were the top people in the communicationg

field in Cuba.

And

most of the radio operators had had up to twentr

years experience, they were alderly people, and they had been

in radio and they could read and they could sand it out vory

well.

Mr. Wides. So your testimony is that -

MI. Sarno. I do not recall them ever having been

trained by anybody, in any sense.

Mr. Wides. Or communications in general?

Mr. Sarno. Now communications generally, I cannot say ena.

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because several of the @Murs were trained and several of them

who were brought out of Cuba, because several of them were in

Cuba as radio operators and then they came out. They were

in the Miami group not operating radios, but --

Mr. Wides. But during your administration of; the muts,

group as case officer, you don't recall any training being

given in communications?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall any cooperation of the More

people with the FBI and other Federal agencies trying to DF

and identify suspected illegal wireless operators in Miami,

Castro agents?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir, they never did.

Mr. Wides.

AMOrS, was not involved in that?

Mr. Sarno. No, I never heard of any. You must remember

that when Dimmer came down and brought the fellow, I never saw

the traffic anymore, but during the period that I was looking

at the traffic, and I was directing that special intercept

group as part of the MUts, I never once gave them an order

and never saw any that they did.

Mr. Wides. When Mr. Shackley was the station chief, did

you report to him or someone selse?

Mr. Sarno. I reported to my branch chief.

Mr. Wides. And what was that branch?

Mr. Sarno. FI Branch, Foreign Intelligence.

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Mr. Wides. And that was the same procedure throughout

the period?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

MI. Wides. Up til '67?

Mr. Sarno.

Through '67.

Well, let's see, now. No, sir.

Well, it was, because later they made the worst group, it

bacame a branch, and they brought in a very senior officer to

be the Branch Chief, and I was considered the Deputy Branch

Chief. Mr. Dimmer brought in the senior officer.

Mr. Wides. And you don't feel like you can give us his

name?

Mr. Sarno. There's no reason not to. He is retired now.

Bill Caldwell.

Mr. Wides. What contact did you have with a man who

called himself San denisa

Mr. Sarno. He was the Chief of the MI Group, the Cuban

Chief.

Mr. Wides. Joaggin San Jenis.

Mr. Sarno. "San denise

Mr. Wides. And he was your principal contact?

Mr. Sarno. He was my principal - he was the head, the

Cuban head of it.

MI. Wides. Are you familiar with the history of the

group that he prepared in the late '60's, or worked on?

Mr Sarno. In the late '60's?

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MI. Wides. I thought so. I thought in '66 or '67, that

is what I meant, that he had worked on the history of the AMors

group.

Mr. Sarno. Well, no.

Mr. Wides.

Are you familiar with the written history of

the AMUS program?

Mr. Sarno. I have never seen it. I had established the

policy that every three months he had to write up about the

group, so all of that, I understand, was all compiled into the

history, so I don't know.

Mr. Wides. As part of the Miami Station?

MI. Sarno. As part of the Miami Station, so I don't think

he was told in '66 or '67, start all over and prepare it.

Mr. Wides. You think it was a consolidation?

Mr. Sarno. I think it was consolidated over the years.

MI. Wides. And this is entitled what, do you know?

MI. Sarno. I supposed it would be the History of the

ANONSE

MI. Wides. And you've never seen it?

Mr. Sarno. I've never seen it.

Mr. Wides. Do you know if it's at Headquarters in the

Latin American Division?

Mr. Sarno. I do not know.

Mr. Wides. When the Cuban Operations Group was set up --

let's go back -- in '61 when you took over was approximately

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the period when Mr. Harvey was setting up the staff Task Force

W, is that correct?

What contact, if any, did you' have with Task Force w

personnel as distinct from the station itself?

Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever.

Mr. Wides. They never came down and spoke to you?

Mr. Sarno. When I came out of Cuba, when I escaped from

Cuba, I was brought up here to Headquarters and debriefed, so

I imagine that the person that debriefed me, this is in July

of '61, I would imagine that individual was part of the Task

Force.

Mr. Wides. I think that was still in the Division. They

had not split the Task Force until the winter of '61, '62.

Mr. Sarno. I see.

Well --

MI. Wides. But after that when you were in Florida, you

had no contact with anyone, to your knowledge, other than the

Station personnel?

Mr. Sarno. Wall, I don't know. Occasionally they would

call me to Washington to discuss something.

MI. Wides. And did you discuss something with people in

the Task Force, the Cuban Task Force?

Mr. Sarno. The Cuban Task Force.

MI. Wides. MI. «Cheevesg?

Mr. Sarno. I know MI. Guneveng, yes.

Mr. Wides. And did you have any contact with Desmond

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FitzGerald when it became the Special Activities Staff and he

took it over?

Mr. Sarno. I know Desmond FitzGerald, of I knew him, and

discussed operations with him -- no, I never sat down and

discussed an operation. I met him at a party, and that was all.

Mr. Wides. And when you came to Washington what kind of

discussions would you have ahout the AMons program?

MI. Sarno. I made so many trips to Washington, I say I

was also the case officer, I used to travel and recruit people.

I do not specifically recall ever being called to Washington to

discuss More.

Mr. Wides. But do you recall ever discussing the gamons

program and the Cubans in it while you were in Washington?

MI. Sarno. Well, if I would come up on a trip and some of

the people who were sitting on a desk hare who were maintaining

the records and everything of the AMo

si, I suppose, vas, they

would come around and discuss parhaps the budget or perhaps

get them to report in a different manner. I recall on one

occasion discussing the set-up of how the tot

#group prepared

the debriefing reports, that they could ramove the names

from

it, instead of filing them inside the raport, they put the

names on cards so they could be put into a computer machine

here.

Mr. Wides. In the period when Mr. Shackley and ir. Dimmer

were Station Chiefs, which would be '63 through '65 or so, did

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you have any contact with Mr. Sternfeld or Mr. Esterline?

Mr. Sarno.

Which period is this?

Mr. Wides.

'62 to '65 or 5o.

Mr. Sarno.

Mr. Esterline, who I believe at that time

was -- Mr. Esterline was --

Mr. Wides.

Was he in Miami?

Mr. Sarno. No, MI. Esterline was on the staff he -- I

don't know whether it was on the staff of the Task Force or

who at that time, but I knew Mr. Esterline, first from his

visits. I first met Mr. Esterline when he came to Miami in

either late '61 or early '52, and I never saw him again until

he used to make his trips down, and then I understand he was

assigned overseas.

Mr. Wides. Did you discuss the arts Program with him?

Mr. Sarno. At that period?

Mr. Wides. At any time.

Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, he was my Station Chief at one

time.

MI. Wides. You mean in '58 or '69?

MI. Sarno.

That's right.

Mr. Wides.

But not prior to that?

Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, he came down on -- prior to his

coming down and setting up the new station, he came down and

discussed with all of us who might remain at our jobs there.

MI. Wides. But not in the early period of the '60's?

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Mr. Sarno. Not in the earlier --

MI. Wides.

What about Larry Sternfeld?

Mr. Sarno. No, MI. Sternfeld was never connected with

the Cuban thing until early '69.

Mr. Wides. Let me go back to the cover companies.

You say you set up one company for the smaller group, or

one notional that was handling the --

Mr. Sarno.

Refugees.

Mr. Wides. Refugees.

Can you give us the name of that?

Mr. Sarno. I don't recall it, sir.

Mr. Wides.

Now, was there a separate company -

Mr. Sarno.

For the principal group.

Mr. Wides. And what was that?

MI. Sarno.

Well, you named it off, the flatt

American

Research

Mr. Wides. I thought you said that didn't start until

' 68?

Mr. Sarno.

Mr. Wides.

No, sir, BASRistarted in '68.

SLat

con Social and soononio Reschneh?

Mr. Sarno.

Is that what that stands for? There was a

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Annatcas Research, that they had.

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Mr. Wides.

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Mr. Sarno.

slatin mericon Rescor

Yeah.

Company?

25

Mr. Wides. What was its cover?

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Mr. Sarno. They were supposed to be doing, researching

Latin America, since they had a lot of files, and you could

hear a lot of typewriters clicking all over the place.

Mr. Wides. And what's your best recollection of the name?

Mr. Sarno. My best recollection is datin American rad

Tid presearch.

Mr. Wides. Company?

Mr. Sarno. Company.

Mr. Wides. Did it have any other names? I think you

suggested there were even more than two proprietaries and more

than two notionals. Did you have three or four going at one

point?

Mr. Sarno. Well, it was at one point, at one point there

were three of them, if you included the Intercept. The

Intercept people had another name.

Mr. Wides. But basically there were --

Mr. Sarno. There could have been three of them at one

time, and basically there were two, yes. One of them was

- that's it. I think the debriefing group came under

or something like that.

Mr. Wides. When do you first recall being approached

about possible use of a

a people outside the Miami area in

the United States?

MI. Sarno. Use of it

people outside the Miami area?

Mr. Wides. In the United States.

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Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever approached me on it. They were

outside of Miami, but the thing that happens is the Chief of

the Miami group, when an AMir would leave --

Mr. Wides. This is

Mso

San Jenis?

Mr. Sarno. When one

of the aMunswould leave for his

reasons, they would always maintain contact with Mr Sant Jents

when they would move to any area, and all they would do is to

report on Cuban exiles in that area.

Mr. Wides. And would the fact that they were leaving and

going to another area be reported by you, back through channels

to Washington for relay to CIA personnel in the area where

they were going? Was this ever done?

Mr: Sarno. Yes, it was done, yes.

Mr. Wides. And was it not uncommon in the case of Cubans

going to the New York area? Does that happen fairly frequently?

Mr. Sarno. Well, since it was handled in such a loose

way, in that it was between Bas

a Jenisland this individual and

we didn't have them on the payroll.

Mr. Wides. You mean you didn't have them on the payroll

in the sense of employees, they were regularly paid agents,

informants?

Mr. Sarno. They were given funds by Sam Jenis; which

obviously were authorized for sort of like operational expenses.

Mr. Wides. Excuse me. You're talking about when they

were in Florida, or when they were moving?

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Mr. Sarno. No, when they were in New York, if they went

to New York.

Mr. Wides. Well, let's go back.

The first question I was asking you was with regard to

your relaying to CIA personnel the fact that someone who had

been at aMor's

in Florida was going elsewhere and you said that

that happened, and then I asked you -- we will come to the

operational relationships in a moment -- how frequently that

happened in regard to people coming to New York. For example,

I assume that there were a fair number of Cubans generally in

there for one of two members of antist who went up to New York

during the course of all of these years.

Mr Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.

Mr. Wides. Would you say several dozen or a dozen?

Mr. Sarno.

So far as I recall, there was only one that

ever went up there, and he in turn collected two or three of

his other friends around him who formed a little nucleus, but

there was only one wur that went.

Mr. Wides. What about other cities? What other cities

do you recall people went to?

Mr. Sarno. In the United States?

Mr. Wides. Yes.

Washington?

MI. Sarno. No, sir. San Juan, Puerto Rico, and that's all,

in the United States.

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2

MI. Sarno. No, sir.

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Mr. Wides.

Anyplace on the West Coast or the Southwest?

MI. Sarno. No, sir.

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Mr. Wides. Boston?

6

Mr. Sarno. No,

Sir.

Mr. Wides. So you only recall persons who had been in

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anSatelling - why don't we refer to him as sansensit

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Mr. Sarno. New York and San Juan are the only two I ever

recall they ever had any amurskor ex akurs.

nor people that had

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Mr. Wides. Now when they went and they recruited other

people, was that

San cante

suggestion or under his supervision?

MI. Sarno. They usually collected a group around people

that they trusted.

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Mr. Wides. Was that up to San Jenisy

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Mr. Sarno. He directed them to do it, yes. I didn't even

know the individual, I never met him. It's one individual.

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MI. Wides. Did he speak to you about the fact that he

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Mr. Sarno. Well, I balieve it came up -- I knew the fellow

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New York in case anything ever came up.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall discussing it?

Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, we did discuss it, obviously it

was discussed, because this fellow came up with a big thing

when they were going to bazooka the UN building.

Mr. Wides. Was this one of the Novo brothers -- or was

either of the Novo brothers in AirS in Florida? I believe

this is the name of the two people who were arrested at the

time.

Mr. Sarno. No, the AMit that was in New York is the one

that discovered the plot and we informed the Bureau and the

Bureau moved in on it.

Mr. Wides. You informed the Bureau?

Mr. Sarno. We informed the Bureau of that shelling of

the UN, and it was the glot?, this one not up there who got

the information.

Mr. Wides. And he relayed that to someone in New York, or

back, through San," Jenisg to you?

Mr. Sarno.

He relayed it toggan denie and we -- he

informed us, and we in turn advised our base in New York who

in turn advised the Bureau.

Mr. Wides. Which base is that, the Domestic Operations or

the Security Office?

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Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations.

(Discussion off the record.)

MI. Wides.

With regard to the information received from

the

former

in New York about the plot to shoot a bazooka

at the UN, was MI. Shackley the Station Chief at the time you

received that information?

Mr. Sarno. I don't recall the date, but the date was

between early '62, which it had to have been, and -- because

Shackley laft which I think was in July of '64 and that would

have meant he was the Chief of Station.

Mr. Wides. Well, didn't he just indicate before while we

were taking a break that you had recalled that Shackley was

the Station Chief?

Mr. Sarno. I don't recall whether he was exactly the

Station Chief of not. I can't place the date with what had

happened, so I know I went back to the Station and I reported

it, and it in turn was reported. Now, if I told it to Shackley

or if I told it to Dimmer, if I told it to the two different

Branch Chiefs that were there. at the time, I do not recall.

Mr. Wides. Now would' that report be in the MurS file?

MI. Sarno. In the history?

Mr. Wides. No, in the file, the project file.

If we got that date when that took place, the date when

the Agency had the information, would your report and report of

the branch of station in Florida be in the AMU

project file

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or would it be in some

other file?

AMUTS.

Mr. Sarno. I don't think that they maintain a chrono on

It was voluminous. Once they were processed by the

Agency and put into our communications channel, be it by

dispatch or by cable, I don't think they retained all of those

tons of files.

Mr. Wides.

Do you recall who the FI Branch Chief was at

the time?

MI. Sarno. No, sir.

If you give me a date that I know

Mr. Widas. I believe it was '64.

Mr. Sarno.

If it was early 1964, then Mr. Shackley was

there. If it was late 1964 when Dimmer came, then there was

another branch, so there were two branch chiefs.

Mr. Wides. Now did you relay this information, did you

say, to Washington, of directly to New York?

MI. Sarno. Sir, I never handled communications.

Mr. Wides. Wall, I didn't mean you --

Mr. Sarno. If I vrite it up, I give it to my branch chief

and my branch chief in turn sends it out. But to me, it would

seem logical, knowing communications, that we would send the

cable directly to New York with info to Washington.

Mr. Wides. Were you aver told that communications had

been made to New York? You said before -

Mr. Sarno. Yes, I was told, because I think there may have

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been a cable or something coming down and giving the boys

credit for the thing..

Mr. DeMarco. Do you recall now the name of this one

Aurs,who went to New York?

Mr. Sarno. His name was Enrique.

Mr. Wides. Could you spell that?

Mr. Sarno. E-n-r-i-q-u-a, that is his first name.

I don't recall his last name.

Mr. DeMarco. Lazarus?

Mr. Sarno. No. Lazarus is not a last name.

Mr. Wides. How many people did he have working with him?

Mr. Sarno. Sir, I don't recall, but I know there was more

than one or two.

Mr. Wides. And would San denis give you reports that he

sent down to San dents?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wides. And what did the reports talk about?

Mr. Sarno. They were on Cuban exiles, groups, collection

of money, Alpha 66 and people of that group who were up in

New York City.

Mr. Wides. Was it your impression at the time that this

group had no cortact with any CIA offices in New York?

Mr. Sarno. Which group, sir?

Mr. Wides. The group that this fellow Enrique had.

Mr. Sarno. Had no contacts with anybody else?

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Mr. Wides. With any CIA offices in New York. Was your

impression that the only contact that he had with CIA was all

the way back through Miami?

Mr. Sarno. I believe that was the case, yes, sir.

Mr. Wides.

You had no understanding?

Mr. Sarno. Well, obviously once this thing came up, we

put this fellow in contact with somebody in the base up there

who in turn delivered them to the Bureau.

Mr. Wides. And this was the Domestic Operations Base, not

the Security Office?

Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations.

Mr. Wides. Now thereafter, did they keep contact wit-

this group?

Mr. Sarno. I cannot recall.

Mr. Wides. Did you continue after that incident to get

reports through son demean

Mr. Sarno. I beliave so, yes.

Mr. Wides. With no indication whether they were also in

touch with the Agency?

Ma Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides.

You weren't curious, or did you ever inquire?

Mr. Sarno. Well, I would believe it to be that they were

not in contact with anybody up there, because if the report

were to come down, they would probably have indicated in their

report that they had passed this information on.

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Mr. Wides. No, I mean after that,

after they were put

in touch with the base:

Mr. Sarno. That's what I was speaking of. Many reports

that came there after, they would have indicated that it had

been passed, and I don't recall ever reading a report from

them that he had passed the information on to any contact up

there.

Mr. Wides. Do you recall any instance in which the

Agency asked, through you, and in turn through Me. denis that

particular people in New York be watched or investigated?

MI. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. How wouid they decide what groups or what

individuals to penetrate or keep under surveillance?

Mr. Sarno. Wall there were the active groups. This

fellow used to come down to Miami and he would talk to Sop

denis and San Jenis would tell him, here is people here who

are talking about collecting money, about a supposed operation,

how much money are they getting for it --

Mr. Wides. Where would he get that information from, from

you?

Mr. Sarno. Get what?

Mr. Wides. Where would San JonS get that --

Mr. Sarno. The MI grOUp knew more about what was going on

in Cuban operations in the Miami area than we did, so most of

the information we obtained was through them.

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Mr. Wides. So how would he get the information about

potential targets in New York?

Mr. Sarno. Because they had the groups down in Miami

penetrated, so in Miami, these groups in Miami, would discuss

their contacts with the splinter group sitting up in New York

and the information would come about.

MI. Wides. You never got any written instructions or

oral instructions when you were in Washington or Miami to see

if you could arrange for this person to get information on

people in New York?

Mr. Sarno. Never.

Never once.

Mr. Wides.

What about picketing in New York by Cuban

personnel? There's some reference to that in testimony we've

already received.

Mr. Sarno.

There is one incident of the Mexico -- I think

it was against Mexico, where they went to an affair of something

and threw out leaflets.

Mr. Wides. What about picketing of an airline company or

an airline office?

MI. Sarno. I heard that that took place, but I was not

in Miami at the time.

I was away on a trip.

Mr. Wides. But your understanding was it involved @Wurs

personnel?

Mr. Sarno. This individual was involved in it.

Mr. Wides. And what did you understand had been the

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origins of the picketing? How would it come about?

MI. Sarno. Well,. I don't believe it was started, I know

it wasn't started in MolS because one individual cannot start

it, but the groups, the Cuban exile groups who were located in

Naw York decided to picket it because, I believe, of Mexico's

relations with Cuba.

Mr. Wides. At this time, wasn't the Agency carrying on

a wide variety of operations to try and isolata Cuba economically

and commercially?

Mr. Sarno. I believe they were, yes.

I was never involved

in any of those operations.

MI. Wides. And including air traffic people, airlines

going to Cuba. That was one aspect of the efforts. to isolate

Cuba.

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Mr. Sarno. Well, the airlines going to Cuba, if I

can recall at that time, were not Mexican airlines.

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Mr. Wides. You didn't have any idea at the time as to

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Mr. Sarno. Mexican airlines do not fly to Cuba. The

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not flying.

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Mr. Wides. So you understood this to be harrassment of

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a Mexican Company or a Mexican national company, because of

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Mexico's general relations with Cuba?

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MI. Sarno. General relations with Cuba, that is what I

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understood it to be.

Mr. Wides. And you didn't have any information that the

Agency was aware of it beforehand?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir, I was never involved in it. I don't

recall ever seeing the reports or anything, because as I say,

I did an awful lot of travelling when I handled the AMorst

Mr. Wides. When you discussed this with the people at

the Agency, is your testimony that you never heard any indica-

tion that the Agency was involved in that picketing?

Mr. Sarno.

That is --

Mr. Wides.

No one's ever suggested --

Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever suggested that the Agency was the

one who backed the people who did the picketing, no.

Mr. Wides. Now was there a time when AMUS personnel who

had not moved outside of the Miami area were ever used or

involved in any Agency operations to your knowledge outside of

Miami, went on trips to do little jobs?

MI. Sarno. AMtS went out of Miami in order to do little

jobs --

Mr. Wides. I don't mean to Cuba.

Mr. Sarno. No, they went out of Miami to do little jobs

like for instance a specialist in say, sugar, would say come

out of Cuba through Spain and he'd end up in New York, and so

an AMol would go from Miami to New York to dabrief him. Or we

would hear of somebody who knew of a well-known government

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figure in Cuba who came out and he goes to Louisiana or he

goes to Chicago. Well, an it would be dispatched over to his

house to debrief him.

That is the only places I ever sent the

or the

AMOrS, were ever sent.

Mr. Wides. What about with regard to surveillances or

breaking or entering?

Mr. Sarno. Never.

Mr. Wides. Mr. Sturbitz, do you know him?

Mr. Sarno. Sturbitz?

Mr. Wides. He was involved in economic warfare against

Castro.

Mr. Sarno. Sturblitz or Sturbitz?

Mr. Wides. Sturbitz.

Mr. Sarno. Yes, I know Sturbitz.

Mr. Wides. He testified he conducted some inquiries in

regard to the question of Mürd involvement in possible illegal

activities, breaking and entering, surveillance and so forth.

Were you aware of those investigations?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

MI. Wides. Have you ever heard any charges or allegations

or suggestions that@lute personnel were involved in breaking

and entering in New York against groups like the Fair Play For

Cuba Committee, the Vinceremos Brigade?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir, so, sir.

Mr. Wides. And you never heard anything about the use of

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AMOTS, in regard to any kind of harrassing action against those

groups?

Mr. Sarno.

No, sir, never.

MI. Wides. Do you know if any members of geS may have

been used in these kinds of activities without your express

direction or not as part of its CIA task?

MI. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides.

You never heard anything about it?

Mr. Sarno.

Never heard.

MI. Wides. In Florida also?

MI. Sarno. In Florida also.

Mr. Wides.

What about with regard to Puerto Rico and

AMUTS going there. Tell us about that.

Mr. Sarno.

Well, there ware several Muts who left Miami

and went over to Puerto Rico. There is a large Cuban community

in Puerto Rico with the attendant Cuban exile groups, and it

was the same thing as was going on in New York. They would

collect data on what these groups were doing, operations that

they were preparing, funds that they were collecting, et

cetera.

MI. Wides. Did you see those reports as they came in?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, they came in and Son Jenig would prepare

them and send them into the office.

Mr. Wides. When did they start including reports on

Puerto Rican affairs?

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Mr. Sarno. Never.

Mr. Wides.

No discussion in those reports --

Mr. Sarno. Never once did they write up about Puerto

Rican political affairs.

I never once saw a report.

Mr. Wides. Did you ever have any discussion with Saw

Jenise

or anyone involved in the Puerto Rican Cuban community about

Puerto Rican affairs?

Mr. Sarno. Never.

Mr. Wides. Was there a station operating at that time

for the Caribbean in Puerto Rico?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. During the entire period, '61 til about '67?

Mr. Sarno.

To my: knowledge, there wasn't.. There was

not a station.

Mr. Wides. Do you want to go ahead?

MI. DeMarco. Just a couple.

You mentioned, or it was touched upon earlier, the

period of time you were actually in Cuba, 1961.

MI. Sarno. '60 and '61.

Mr. DeMarco. What requirements were levied upon you when

you left to go to Cuba?

Mr. Sarno. None.

Mr. DeMarco. Well, you'd better explain that. I don't

understand that answer at all. You just went on a vacation?

Mr. Sarno. I was transferred from a foreign country to

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Cuba because they needed me.

Mr. DeMarco. What foreign country were you transferred

from?

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Mr. Sarno.

I don't think that I should tate that.

Mr. DeMarco. I insist that you answer that.

Mr. Wides. Let's go off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DeMarCo. For tha record, I think I should explain to

you that we are highly interested in the sort of activities

that you were involved in in Cuba in 1960 and '61, but our

investigation has to a certain point been slowed down by the

inability to obtain the right kinds of documents and that

being the case, and your insistence here on not answering

certain questions, will require us to simply have you come

back once we have cleared this up with your superiors at the

Agency and once they have been more forthcoming with documents

that were long ago requested about your activities.

I don't want to pursue just suspicions with you, I'd

rather talk to you about specific dates and facts.

We are going to pursue this very vigorously, and the

reason I'm interested in it is the gambling background, and

I would like to know your training in that area, your experience

in that area and the reasons why you wara down there.

Now if there is anything you want to tell me now, or do

you want to come back --

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Mr. Sarno. Sure, I'll tell you now. I was in a country --

and I don't think I have to name the country because you are

interested in Cuba and you are interested in the operation that

I had in Miami and I don't think you're interested in what I

did before I went to Cuba. I tell you that nobody gave me any

instructions when I went to Cuba. I knew the Chief of Station

in Cuba and had known him for many years. He asked for me

specifically to come over for my abilities or qualifications

or experience. I climbed on an airplane and I went to Cuba.

I met the Chief of Station and he told me what he wanted

me to do.

Mr. DeMarco. What's his name?

Mr. Sarno.

un Noelo

MI. DeMarco. You metifro

Noelt and he told you what he

wanted you to do?

What did he tell you?

Mr. Sarno. He told me he wanted me to set up a stay-behind

net in Cuba because the

situation was getting very bad and he

would like to set a stay-behind net up in Cuba.

MI. Wides. This is with the break in Cuban relations?

Mr. Sarno. That's right, the pending break in diplomatic

relations and the rest of the things, and he wanted to set up

a net over in Cuba. And that is why he called for me.

MI. DeMarco. Okay. So you --

Mr. Sarno. I went into Cuba and did not have a job. I had

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no cover. I went in as a tourist, a tourist can wear thin so

I had to scrounge around in different ways. w had a brother-

in-law who was a professional gambler. When I was a kid, he

died. He taught me a little about gambling, so I used to go

to the black jack tables and I would win money here, there and

the other place.

Mr. DeMarco.

Is this the hotel black jack tables

predominantly?

Mr. Sarno. No, thay had black jack, roulette, they had

baccarat. I would go in there, I would make myself seen, they

would see that I was wearing good clothes and I was winning

money at the gambling tables and that's it.

I am not to be tied into any Syndicate or anything like

it. I didn't know a single soul.

Mr. DeMarco. You knew no one?

Mr. Sarno. Nobody.

MI. DeMarco. And your task then, which you learned on

arriving there, was to set up a network?

Mr. Sarno.

To set up a network of agents in Cuba, yes.

Mr. DeMarco. So you started meeting people to do that?

Mr. Sarno. No.

We never meet people to do that.

MI. DeMarco. Describe to me how you did it.

Mr. Sarno. People ware spotted by other individuals and

they're checked out, and once they're checked out and their

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clearance is obtained on them, they are delivered to me for

me to handle and train and what have you.

MI. DeMarco. I see.

Were any of those Americans?

Mr. Sarno. No, I never spotted any Americans.

There

were two Americans over there who were already working, and they

were given to me to use as, to handle some of the other ones

that were involved.

MI. DeMarco. Were they also involved in the same type of

cover you were, gambling?

Mr. Sarno. No. They were not in the same cover. As I

say, it was a cover provided by the Agency. It was a cover I

just naturally stumbled into since I was going to the

different casinos and I was winning money there and I could

pass myself off as a tourist-gambler.

Mr. DeMarco. These other two Americans you were talking

about, can you name them?

Mr. Sarno. Well, I'll give you the name. One I would

name, because I was not involved with the other one very long.

One's name is Emelio Rodriquez, but he is dead now.

Mr. DeMarco. He was an American?

Mr. Sarno.

Yes, he died of a heart attack. And the

other was Julian.

MI. DeMarco. Julian?

Mr. Sarno. Julian. I don't racall the last name, but he

i raisin..

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only ramained for about two months after I arrived.

Mr. DeMarco. What ware these two people doing in Cuba

prior to the time they were turned over to you and you met

them?

Mr. Sarno. Collection of intelligence.

MI. DeMarco. For the Agency?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, for the Agency. They were agents of the

Agency, as was I. But they were residing in Cuba.

Mr. DeMarco. At any time while you were in Cuba, for that

matter, at any time, did you become aware of any Agency

relationships with - I'm going to use the term generically --

organized crime. Do you understand what I mean by that?

MI. Sarno. Yes, certainly.

Mr. DeMarco. Whether or not organized, people who you've

read about in the paper, or you would consider to be involved

in that kind of business, are you aware of any relationships

betwean any Agency personnel in Cuba or elsewhere?

Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever.

MI. DeMarco. During the period of time that you ware in

the casinos, playing black jack and roulette and so forth, did

you gat an opportunity to meet the people that were running

the casinos?

Mr. Sarno. No.

There was one big Swede in the Capri that because it was

close to where I was living I would go in there more often, and

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as soon as I take off from my house, my apartment, I would

head over there and he, was always seeing me in and offer me

drinks, but he was not a big wheel, he was just one of their

employees.

Mr. DeMarco. Where was this?

Mr. Sarno. At the Capri.

Mr. DeMarco. You say a big Swede?

MI. Sarno. A big swede, a blond-haired fellow. I didn't

even know his name, I'd just call him Swede.

Mr. DeMarco. Was he an American, or from Sweden?

Mr. Sarno. I think he was from America.

MI. DeMarco. Were any of the people that you were

involved in handling in Cuba commercial or airline people?

Any airline people?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. DeMarco. Did any of them have official Cuban govern-

ment positions?

Mr. Sarno. Yes.

MI. DeMarco. They did?

Mr. Sarno. Some of then did, those were the ones that

you were looking for.

Mr. DeMarco. I don't have anything more at this time.

Mr. Wides. I am just a little puzzled by your testimony

regarding the TS activity with regard to the Cuban community,

You indicated there was a CI capability, but if I understand

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it, you said the only penetration was for purposes of finding

out about exile activities being planned against Cuba.

What was your testimony with regard to the use of wure

for members of the Cuban community who might come under

suspicion as possibly being intentionally or unintentionally --

Mr. Sarno. Suspect?

Mr. Wides. They were employed of they were not employed

in any way regarding checking on this?

Mr. Sarno. If you mean to say did they go around and

surveil them -

Mr. Wides. No. In any sense of counterintelligence

work, keeping their ears open and reporting back information

that might be of a suspicious nature.

Mr. Sarno. Well, to explain it, if an amul were to walk

into a place and see a friend and the friend says did you see

Juan, do you know Juan is here, and the AMul himself knows and

the guy he's talking to that Juan used to work for the Internal

Security in Cuba, it's obvious. Where's he at, try to find

him.

And then they would go back to the files and dig out all

the information and in would come a report. Juan is in the

city of Miami and here's the stuff that we have on him. He

was a Castro collaborator, or he's a member of the security

forces over there, and everything.

Mr. Wides.. So in general it would be fair to say -- and

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I'm not trying to twist your testimony, I know you referred

to the basic purpose being to keep tabs on what was going on

so you would be aware of what Alpha-66 and groups like that

were planning, but in general, they were the eyes and ears of

the Station in the Cuban community and might come up with

counterintelligence information as well as the information

about the activities?

Mr. Sarno. Yes,

sir, yes, sir.

Mr. Wides. And as you understand it on a smaller scale,

this was also true with regards to the group in New York?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

MI. Wides. It was not simply to find out about Alpha-66,

but they would also report to the extent that they obtained

CI, that is counterintelligence information, about the Cubans

in New York?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wides. What about with regards to the activities at

the UN? Any reports regarding UN activity relative to Cuba?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

Mr. Wides. Was there a Cuban mission at the UN at this

Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.

MI. Wides. And this group never relayed any information

regarding the Cuban mission or the people they contacted in

New York? •

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Mr. Sarno.

No, sir.

Mr. Wides.

Why wouldn't they have been used for that

purpose?

Mr. Sarno. Because that is the Bureau's domain.

le never

checked up on Cubans, the diplomats who were in the UN, nobody

was

ever in contact with them, they never reported on any

Cuban diplomats in the UN or any of the Cubans seeing them or

anything.

Mr. Wides. Did you ever hear any stories whether they .

were associated with anu's or not of Cuban exiles being

involved in any harrassment of surveillance of groups in

America friendly toward the Castro regime, such as the

Vinceremos Brigade and the Fair Play For Cuba Committee?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

MI. Wides. You were not aware of any activity by exiles?

I'm not talking about necessarily AMuleS

MI. Sarno. Not of any activities.

Mr. Wides. You never heard anything?

Mr. Sarno. I never heard anything.

You're smiling. I'm telling you, I never heard anything.

Mr. Wides. What about Cubans in the late '60's after the

Vietnam War arose, being involved, Cuban exiles, in any

harrassment or surveillance of peace groups? What do you know

about that?

Mr. Sarno. Nothing.

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Mr. Wides. Do you know anything about Cubans coming up

from Miami to be involved in surveillance or disruption of

any peace demonstrations in Washington?

Mr. Sarno. No, sir.

MI. Wides. You never heard of that?

Mr. Sarno. I never heard of it. I know no AMorS and I

never heard of any other Cubans.

Mr. Wides. Is there anything else that you - have you

gotten a clear understanding of our lines of interest?

Mr. Sarno. Yes, I have.

Mr. Wides. - would like to tell us, or any information

Mr. Sarno. I have no information. I ran a group there

and we were never involved in anything which I would consider

to be illegal. They were working against the government of

Cuba.

Mr. Wides. I understand that.

Mr. Sarno. And that is where all of their energy went.

Mr. Wides. Who was it who would ask you to have membars

of AvOrs detailed for missions elsewhere in America?

You described one where they would go to another city to

debrief somebody.

Mr. Sarno. I would --

Mr. Wides. How would you get those instructions? From

the Branch Chief?

Mr. Sarno. No, I wouldn't get the instructions. Since it

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was a group and we were collecting economic and political

intel -

Mr. Wides. Where would you get the information that' there

was a target of opportunity or someone to be debriefed in

another city?

MI. Sarno. If the flus were to come up with the informa-

tion, if the d

IT were to come up with the information, he

would come in and report it and I would authorize him to go

into that city and find him, because the information could

come in many ways.

See, they were known as the Cuban municipalities and

operations in the city of Miami, and everybody that came

out

from like a provinca or a state would register in it, and

as soon as they got information, the word would get around that

Joe Blow came in or something like that, and the word would get

back to the

DES and the

UtS would say, well, we should

discuss with this fellow, and that's it.

Mr. Wides. You never got any requests for

personnel

to be made available for that kind of task from Washington?

Mr. Sarno. To debrief an individual?

Mr. Wides. Or to travel

in general.

Mr. Sarno. Yes, yes, they would come down and say, we

would like a person because Washington would hear of an

individual and would like for him to go over and debrief.

Mr. Wides. What office?

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Mr. Sarno. It would come out of the Cuban branch.

Mr. Wides.

Cuban. Operations Task?

Who would come down? Just a member of the staff?

Mr. Sarno.

Come down? They usually came in a cable.

It said, you know, we understand such and such a person is

living at such and such an address and they worked at such and

such, suggest send an moly out to debrief.

Mr. Wides. Did you have a particular point of contact

or several people who were particular points of contact for

you that would tend to be the ones sending you cables?

Mr. Sarno. No, I wasn't the Station Chief. The cables

come into the station, the Station Chief would pass it to me

or to the Branch Chief, and that would be it.

Mr. Wides. Okay.

I think that's all the questions we have, and I want

to thank you for your patience, it's been a long morning.

(Whereupon, at 12:42 o'clock p.m., the hearing recessed.)

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