TRANSCRIPT OF RECORDED INTERVIEW OF PABLO HERNANDEZ MOYAS
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Document date: 1/1/62
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SECRET

I7P

TRANSORIRE OF RECORDED INIRVIEN OF PABLO HERMANDEZ MOYAS.

Subject arrived to key West, Florida, on 9 January 1962, and was

Interviewed by Cesar DIOSDADO, Customs Agent.

hat is your full name, please?

Pablo HERNANDEZ Koyas.

DOC. MICRO. SER

DEG 1 1972

MICROFILMED

When and where were you born?

I was born on 6 Tune 1939 in Manicaragua, Las Villas province, Cuba.

mat is your occupation?

Connerce. I worked in a shoe store in Santa Clara, Las Villas.

Do you belong to any underground group?

I was up in the hills fighting, in the Escambray, under Major Joaquin

MEMBIBERES.

How lone were you an insurgent in the hills?

I was 14 months up in the hills, from 26 August 1960 until approximately

two months ago.

That other Vajors or Chiefs were operating in that area also?

I was with CONGO PACHECO. The chief of the Escambray is Osvaldo

RAMIREZ.

During your stay in the hills, how many men were there, how many men did

you have?

The Escambray 1s divided Into guerrilla groups. The Has counts on

300 men in arms, in addition to the rest of the guerrille groups which

are also under this headquarters.

What is the total number of nen fighting in that area?

I estimate that there are approximately 2,000 armed men in the

Escembray:

And

are they well equipped, are you receiving orns in the scambray?

Vell, lately we have been receiving, during the past few months maile

ww 53320 Doctäts237301b Page 2 some prenades, etc.

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

Then you have been receiving supplies?

Yes, a little delayed but we are receiving some.

Now it is a

Little more advanced.

How is the morale of the insurgents in that area?

Dveryone who is in arms in that area has a high morale.

And have they brought Militia troops to the Escambray?

That is tremendous. When they start one of their offensives they

send 50,000 or 60,000 Militia troops. We have to fight every day.

But sometimes we have a good situation because there is control within

the Militias themselves, that is, militiamen from cooperative farns and

aranges are sent there by our own organizations, and they are good men.

At least we have a good situation with them. The problem is when they

unleash one of their offensives. But when things are quiet we have a

good situation.

How are you receiving the arms with which you are beins supplied?

Ne are receiving them through contacts.

Do you have contact with outside Cuba, or how were you getting these arms?

I think that lately we have had contact with other countries, but

I do not know who they are because we only receive them and we don't

know how they are obtained.

And who is the main contact which you have for Osvaldo RAMIREZ?

Nell, I belong to another group. To CONGO PACHECO and Joaquin

MEMBIBEROS.

And do you have contact with people outside the scambray area? that is,

did you have contacts in the town so they would support you?

Of course, people were collaborating with us throughout Las Villas

province.

Can you divulge the name or names of these contacts or people who were

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

Yes, one of our main contacts was a man named Rafaelito LUGONES.

This interview will not be published will it? (question by HERNANDEZ Moyas!

No, this 1s strictly secret and confidential. (interviewer)

Well, also another man from Santa Clara called Andres (LNU) who

used to come to the u.s.

You mean he comes to the u.s.?

No, he used to come.. He is now under arrest.

Do you remember any other names?

No, I really don't. You see, there are so many and I have trouble

remembering the names.

And then you say that there are approximately 2,000 men in the Escambray?

Xes, 2,000 armed men. What we need is ammunition.

The time when you were there, what was the most needed type of ammunition?

The most necessary ammunition was •30 Caliber, we had three -30

were

Calibers and we/short of ammo. We also needed grenades. Hand grenades

are extremely necessary, it is the most effective weapon. It is very

effective because one is always surrounded there, they encirole us and

then we can break through with grenades and the enemy is afraid to come

near us if they know we have them.

And how do the militiamen behave in combat?

Well, some militiamen fight well and others run like the devil.

And in your opinion, do you think that the majority of them run or what?

Well, at this

stage of the game those who fight are Communists.

Today those who are not Communists will not fight. when we first rose

in rebellion, everyone would fight. Those who were deceived and who

believed in the Revolution and all that. But now that they have realized

what Communism is, the militiaman who is not a Communist will not fight.

The Communists are the ones who fight. And now the Militia

troops do not

so up the hills with the same original enthusiasm, they have to be forced

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

to comb the area, and when they get up there they find that things are

quite different. Now the militiamen are not fighting with the same

enthusiasm which they had previously for the fight. Their is much

discouragement among them, and many of them are also good men.

Are they collaborating with you?

Yes, they are.

In what form are they collaborating?

Well, with food and things like that. When we are encircled it

becomes very hard to obtain food because they seize all roads and paths.

And it is not as if we were operating on open country. We operate in

guerrilla groups moving about and when we are attacked it is very

hard to find food.

And what do those officers do, do they leave you food or what?

Well, no, let allow our contactsto operate by looking the other way.

Of course, in those posts there is always some militiaman that is e

Connunist or sonething, but our men operate freely.

And those who are collaborating or supporting the Regime, don't you

think that they may die in combat and thus they will be eliminated as

time passes?

Well, those men are already on a black list. When the time comes

they will be elininated.

Also when Militia forces

were sent from lavana

to conb the woods, as they call it, as these troops are not very experienced

in the mountains, the ones with experience are the Militia troops that

have been in the mountains for some time,

then some of them who are good

people would send us word that the troops were coming so that we could

change our position. Then the troops would begin to

comb the area

but we were already out of that area and they would not find anything.

Then the militiamen themselves

warned you of this?

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

You mean that the militiamen who were permanently assigned to the area

were the ones who warned

you?

Yes, they sent us word.

And this has been total collaboration from those men, or....?

Well, this collaboration has already been given for some months.

Before everyone fought but then they realized things and collaborated

with us. Now everyone in Cuba is collaborating.

And how do you see things. Do you think that if you had more cooperation

and received more supplies of arms and ammo do you think that more of

your men could operate in that area?

Yes, of course:

the Escambray had received more attention Fidel

night no longer be in yower. And they should have taken better care of

it, but they were busy with other things.... why mention them? The most

sacrificed people were we men from the Escambray, and if they had furnished

all the requests which were made, then things might be different today.

The thing is that we were abandoned to our own luch, to whatever we could

do by ourselves. And I think that we have done even more than we might

conceivably have been capable of doing. If we had had arms.... from the

beginning there were hundreds of men who wished to so up the hills but

they did not have arms. And they had to be turned down because we had

no arns to give them and they would have been a hindrance for us. What

can an unarmed man do in the woods? To accept them would have meant their

capture. If there had been enough arms the Escambray would be free today.

And you think that if more materiel is sent in, that more men could

operate in that area?

The Escambray would soon be free. Infiltrating men into the Bscambray,

Tri thout

/rits the Castro Remine Knowing about it, infiltrating expeditions taking

neteriel and everythin'.

Most of the

peasants in that area are dylas to

net a rifle in their hands, and if all those people are armed properle

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ, Moyas (cont.)

those whom we have had to turn down because there were no arms for them,

then the Escambray would soon be free.

And is there a way of introducing that materiel over there?

Well, everything is possible in this life; nothing is impossible.

Yes, but I mean, are there places through which the arms could be brought

in ?

Sure, of course. Arms can be brought in through anywhere.

But I mean some specific place?

Sure, there are places.: You see, Cuba is all organized today,

and all those organizations have their plans because many people have

gone there, and they say that they are soing to drop arms and all that.

And everyone is waiting.

Some of those organizations have over 100 men,

others over 200, others over 300, and all those men are unarmed and are

only waiting for the arms to go into action, go up the hills, or do

whatever might be necessary. For example, a farm in the area where we

operate, there is a point, I believe that the plan is right here in

the United States to drop arms, but nothing has ever been dropped.

And is that point on the coast, or..

..?

No, it is in the Escambray Itself but in the more level part of

the mountains. Around Manicaragua, the Salto de Manicaragua.

And what could be done, drop the arms?

Tes, they could be air dropped.

And it would not be possible by land?

Tes, it could be done but it would be much more difficult. But

there is so much vigilance in Cuba

And what about through the coast?

#o, the coast is very far.

The coast is near to Irinidad and

Sancti Spiritus, but far fron other inland areas.

And there is much

vigilance also.

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Movas (cont.)

Then it would not be possible to send in an operation through there

to deliver arms to you?

Hell, having a directter connection with the people who are organized

in that area, the arms could be delivered to them. I don't know.

That

is just a vague project, I don't know how it might be done.

And were you being furnished any arms?

Very few. Lately some were coming in. But a lot of ammunition is

necessary and ie are very short on anno, it is very scarse.

And food, how are all those insurgents fed?

Well, food has to be rationed. Cows are bought from the peasants

thenselves.

And then you are also receiving funds for those purchases of livestock?

les, the organizations in the towns send money, but sometimes it 1s

also a little scarse. But something is received.

And then you see a los of bullets there?

Xes, even the wonen fight. The women peasants ask for rifles to

fight, and even the boys fight. There is a lot of dignity in Cuba. The

only ones who are with Fidel is the rabble, the lowest elements, bunch of

thieves and criminals. Anyone with dignity is against Fidel and against

Communism.

Fidel only has the support of a small bunch of Communists,

the problem is that people are living in terror and everyone is afraid.

But all he has is an insignificant bunch of Communists. And the people

can even move.

They send anyone to the execution wall for the slightest

thing. I believe that if Cuba is attacked by different places that this

will soon fall. The Cuban people are desperate for something to happen

so they can so out and fight.

And did you cone to make a contact, or do you have a nission here in the

United Stetes?

ww 53320 Doclf:9b37312 Cagebray because I was in a very difficult situation.

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

We were encircled and I was left alone. A lot of militia troops were

thrown against me. Then my first departure was for Favana, that is,

for Santa Clara and from there to Havana. And then I made a connection

to come over here. Xy idea here is to contact

Jajor Joaquin MEMBIBERES.

Then you were separated from your group?

Yes, I was dispersed. I and another young fellow.

And where is he?

se is still in Havana.

He didn't want to come to the United States?

Well, I didn't have time to send word to hin. This ooportunity

for ne to come tras something which happened very fast.

And then was it an organization that made contact with you for you to

come on this trip, or what?

Well, I came here through a contact of our own people. Supposedly

anyone coming from the hills and having contacts can easily find a way

to leave.

And then you had no problems while leaving in the boat "BIANCA NIEVES?"

Well, the problen was that the trip took too long. We left there

on the 2nd and arrived on the 9th. We had a very rough time. the boat

broke down, we almost sank twice, spent three days on some keys almost

without any food and water. Then an aircraft flew over the keys where

ve vere, and it sent word to a Coast Guard cutter which brought us over

here.

That is how vou got here?

yes.

And whet is your personal opinion regarding the toms near the Escambray;

are they collaboratim with you?

Terrifically.

There is always some Comunist who is with fidel, but

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Interview of Pablo HORNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

Do you know any of their names?

Whose names?

of the Commists.

Tes, I know some.

Can you give me their names?

Yes. We were reported that a nan wes a member of the G-2, his name

is Angel HERNANDEZ,

There is he front

He's fron onicaracua, from a part called quirro.

I think he ows

a srocery store.: And another man from there who is named Andres PEREZ

and who is a Communist.

Where 1s PEREZ from?

Also from Quirro.

And there is another nen called Arsenio (LNU)

from anicaragua.

There are many other é-2s but I don't remember their

names.

And what other forces are operating in that area, in addition to CoNGO

PACTICO's forces.

Vell, there is another

nan called Luis VARGAS, and another called GUILLA

What is GUILIaN's first name?

Well, I don't inow. He operates in a different area and everyone

cows him as GUILLEN.

He signs just GUILLON.

We have had some conver-

sations but have had little contact.

And where is he from, how old is he?

He is from 3a.

Loza, from around that area in las Villas province.

Does he have brothers?

Tes, he has brothers. But like I said, I have had very little contact

with him because he operates in one area and we in another.

And how old is he; is he young?

Mell, I don't now his age, but he is young.

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

And who else are operating with him?

Well, the groups there are divided by areas. Lach has a different

zone of operations.

RAMIREZ is also near that area, near Sancti Spiritus,

around 0jo del Agua and Cabaiguan.

And who else are up there?

Luis, GUILLOT, CONGO, Osvaldo RAMIRIZ, those are the chiefs of

our groups. There are also other guerrillas which I do not know.

The nountains are a very large area and there are other snall sroups

in other areas.

And do you run into them?

Yes, we run into them.

And how do you distinguish yourselves among each other?

well, we know each other, and the passwords are know.

Do you have passwords up there?

Tes, insurgents have to have them.

And what communications do you have between the different groups?

Through contacts.

Person to person,

Yes •

You have no radios to broadcast.

No. At least not while I was there. I don't know if they have

arrived in the last two months.

Then they are operating well in that area?

Yes, that area is very sood in spite of the offensives.

Some times

one has to fight every day. But we fire four shots at the militiamen

and they start running. They dic foxholes and encircle us. But then

you fire a shot at them and they out their heads down inside the hole.

All they do is out their sub-nechine suns and

start firing but keen

their heads well down.

Then we are able to break the encirclement easily.

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

Then all you do is fire two or three shots?

Yes, we break the encirclements easily. The bad thing is falling

into an ambush, then we are forced to clash there in the

open:

And what do you do with the wounded?

The situation of the wounded is a little rough, there are little

medicines. They are bandaged and if possible, they are taken into the

towns where they are given medical attention.

Have you had many losses?

Xes, we have had many, but we have inflicted many losses upon the

enemy also. At the time of the big offensive in February we had many

losses. They threw 110,000 thousand militiamen against us and attacked

with artillery and heavy weapons.

And did many of you have the opportunity to escape; what did you do?

Yes. At the time of the big offensive it was almost impossible for

us to remain in the woods because we had no food, and all the peasant

homes were occupied by the Militias. We had to eat boiled bananas. Then

we went down to the plains, after breaking encirclements during 32 days, and

having eaten only nine timès during all these days.

then we reached the

plains, and in the plains things changed a bit. We were able to recover

Somewhat.zuix

kx We were fighting in the plains for two

months and when they called off the offensive we went back up the

mountains. And we managed to get along like that.

And how long did that encirclement last.

Three months,

Did you have many losses, or did you inflict heavy losses upon the enemy?

At first we were in a

good situation. We hed over 2,000 armed men.

ivelio DUQUE was there at that time, MELBIßERIS, and all those people.

Then they sent 10,000 nilitianen against us. ie fought hard and

intlleted beavy losses upon them. Approximatel: 5,000 militiamen tere

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Movas (cont.)

killed by us and less than 5,000 remained. That was the first group

ot militiamen. Then they kept sending nore and more militia troops

until they hed 110,000 troops fighting against us.

Then our situation

becane very difficult.

Some of the weakest men were forced to surrender

by hunger, others were killed. And militiamen were killed in great

nunbers by us. They sent new troops without discipline which were easy

pickings.

And did you have the opportunity of capturing arns from the eneny?

es, we captured

sone of then, We captured nany Ozech sub machine

guns but they are no good, they jam. And we had no ammo for them.

The truth is that we didn't like them very much.

Then when you used up their ammo, you put then aside or what?

Then when we had

used up their ammo they were no good to us.

We

had to go for ammo to Russia.

Then your forces inflicted many losses upon the enemy?

Yes, a lot.

And you said you had recently been in Havana?

Tes, I spent approximately 20 days in Havana. I spent Christmas in

Havana. There wasn't one roasted pig; it seemed like All Souls Day.

There was no gaiety or anything. They people are very upset.

They are very upset, but they are

not yet ready?

well, I'll speak to you clearly. The people, the real people are

against Fidel. The only ones who are with him are those who never had

anything of their own, the rabble. But the real people 1s opposed to Fidel

And then the general feeling is quite...

...?

Well, you see, in the past few months there was a lot of discouragement.

Among the underground?

No, among the Communists. The militiamen. You see, many of the

militiamen have been indoctrinated. But many are opening up their eyes.

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ. Moyas (cont. )

You see, at first things were

quite rough for us, but not now, things

have changed. At first everyone was a Communist, but now the majority

have turned against them.. And I also think that the Castro Regime must

be exterminated with lead. Hunger will not overthrow them.

The Communists

know how to be hungry.

And how is the underground, the groups in Havana?

Well, the scoups there are waiting.

Is there unity among them?

Yes, there is quite a bit of unity. But they are waiting because

they do not have orders to do anything. According to what they told me,

they do not even have orders to light a cigarette.

There are no sabotages?

No, nothing. They say that they do not have orders to perfora

sabotages. That 1s, according to some people with who I talked. They

say they do not have any orders.

Do you know Evelio DUQUE well?

Well, no, I don't know him. But my brother does, because he was

fighting with his group. But Evello knows me more or less on account

of my brother.

And What is your brother doing, is he still there?

No, he isn't doins anything now because he is in prison.

My brother

was the second In command of Joaquin MEWBIBERES.

And what is your brother's name?

Justo HERNANDEZ Moyas.

He was Evello DUQU3's second in command?

No, Joaquin WetBIBaRis second in command?

And when was he captured?

On the 26th of february at the time of the big offensive. When they

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

LINA (3), QUEIO (?) and those men.

And did you ever hear BLANCO mentioned? - Captain BLANCO?

BLANCO? I don't know. That name sounds familiar.

And who else were in the zone of operations?

In the scambray there were also QUELO, Nardo LIMA (? - tape not clear)

who were caught in the offensive. CARRO (? - tape not clear).

Nere those men also captured?

Yes. There was also Ismael ROA (? - tape not clear), who was also

captured in February during the big offensive. You see, it seems they

fell in a very bad area, and they had to..

* * *

They captured many

men there, many.

About how many men did you have up there at that time?

Approximately over 2,000 men.

We also had many unarmed men, and that

caused much.•

You see, they had to surrender because what could

an unarmed man do up there?

And you say that you are receiving few arms now?

Well, arms are received but a little slowly. A few come in every now

and then. But I don't know about the last few months. It is said that

quite a few arms have been sent up there lately. And that many men have

gone up, and some expeditions have infiltrated through different areas,

according to what my contacts have told me.

That arms are being sent in then?

Yes, they are going in. In Cuba there are insurgents everywhere.

In any sugar cane field there is a guerrilla. What they are waiting for

is the order. That there be something effective.

so they can back all

those people. Because, you see, in some of those areas the guerrillas

can't operate because they will send 15,000 or 20,000 militiamen against

then. They would be exterminated.

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Interview of Pablo TRUANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

But if they rise in rebellion in an area, and they send the 15,000

or 20,000 milltiamen, and then there is another uprising in another area,

they have to divide that militia force, don't they?

Hell, of course.

But then the uprisings in different areas have to

be coordinated.

And what is the present situation of Osvaldo RAMIREZ?

Osvaldo is all right.

And 2A01:00 1s also all right?

He is also all right. But he needs ammunition.

Then you believe that if they were given more arms and ammunition,

that nore men could co up into that area

to operate?

Certainly.

That is what everyone is waiting for. At this time we

need arms. The people are desperate to take a rifle in their hands.

And have they sent heavy artillery against you in that area, or

can't they come near you?

Yes, they have sent quite a bit of artillery against us. They have

used a lot of artillery against us. When they locate our position they

shell the woods with bazookas and artillery, and mortars. It's very rough.

Do they use the Air Force against you?

No, they haven't used the Air Force. Not up in the hills.

Is it hard for them to use the Air Force up there?

Vell, I don't think the air force 1s effective up in the woods. It

is worse for them,

Because they would be met with fire from doim there?

Sure.

11 YOU

Then vou believe that/received more supplies of arus and anmo that

you would be joined by more men.

les. I can assure thet to tou.

The people are dying to go up the

hills, but they are holdior back because what would all those men do un

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

And how could more people naintain themselves up in the scambray

with regard to food?

Well, like I said, everyone is collaborating up there. And also

the food thet is sent through the contacts. The cows and food that

are

bought from the peasants. And we manage to get alone.

Then they are collaborating very much with you?

Zes, of course. the peasants up there are such good people that ridel

took 1,000 or 2,000 of them out of there and sent them to the cooperative

farms because he said that they were collaborating with us. And then

they set up posts in the houses vacated by those people. But there are

still nany good ones left.

and they don't attack you from those posts?

Well, there are also good people in those posts. le also have men

there.

If it werengt for that, where would we be now?

Then all those people are also collaborating with you?

Some of them.

That is a very delicate thing. There are always some

Communists there too. But it is a very delicate situation because it one

of these officers are found out to be collaborating with us, he is

executed in 24 hours.

Then the situation there is difficult anyway?

in what sense?

To oberate un there.

Tell we are holding back, waiting. Because one of those posts could

be attacked and the arms captured. But what would be gained by that?

They would send heavy forces against us. me are waiting, and orders have

been received not to do anything, to wait. That the time will come to

act. the truth is that the nen are voset. This is a problen that should

have been solved before. Not let it take so long.

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Interview of Pablo HERNANDEZ Moyas (cont.)

then you say that there are insurgents in other areas of Ouba?

Yes, there are groups everywhere up in arms. In the Encrucijada

area there are some small groups in the cane fields. Also in Corralillo

where CONDIQUE and CAMPITOS are operating.

Then you did not come to the United States on any special mission?

No. You see, I came because MEBIBIRDS himself had sent word that

his men who could, should come

out. But at that time we could not even

move up there from where we were, and I was caught in a very difficult

situation up there and I had no other choice than go out to Santa Clare

first and then so to Havana, Then our own people told me to leave Cuba

and then I could return later. So I came over here.

Mell, I wish to thank you and congratulate you for your sood fortune,

and I hope you continue to have the sane good furtune here.

thank you, goodbye.

END OF TAPE RECORDING

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9-600

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Nore

NW 53320 Docid:32373812 Page 18

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