NOSENKO INTERROGATION TRANSCRIPT, REEL #4.
Agency: CIA
Originator: CIA
Document date: 07/28/1965
Document type: PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

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Released under the John F. Kennedy Assass natig

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(44 USC 2107 Note)

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TRANSCRIPT

REEL # 4

INCLUSIVE DATES: CAN TULY 1965 - 50 TILY 1I

•CESTODIAL UNIT/LOCATION: SE

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REVIEWED BY (PRINT NAVE)

JOHAIRA SANTIL

SIGNATURE OF REVIEWING OFFICIAL

NO DOCUMENTS SAY BE COPIED OR REMOVED FROM TIS FILE

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2: July 195;

29) July 1997

:

B. Voll, taic ncerchilstly, on overzhinstly Squnre, the "Dotsily Mir"

store vas opined only in rucent years.

That 15, rich I began working in 1953, there was no "Dotskly Mir".

When was it there.

I absolutely do not renember, I do not rencaber.

A. One sinute.

B. What vas there before.

I also do not renember.

The same with the Gastronon - when was it opened.

I do not renember.

A. ... ten you began vorking ....

B. ... I saj I do not remember ....

((XG; A and 2 speak at the sane tune. ))

A. But I was not assing you about that (the "Dets'iiy "lir" storc)) .

You told ne yourself.

B. (XG) .

A. Alright; If you worked there 11 years, etc..i.,

the "Detskly dir"

...= wag open ....

Then was it opened.

B. When:

I do not renember, I do not renember.

And I also do not remember what there was in that place before,

other.

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I renember only that, on the Tsentral'nyy Street (proyezd) side,

there was a very well-know, fanous bar, in a basement -- I remember

this.

But that kind of building there vas before this, I do nut remember;

but in 1953, there was no "Detskly Mir'.

A. ((In English.)) Well,

If you worked there, you rould know exactly what was there.

B. I do not renember.

A. And, probably, if you had worked there, you would have dropped in

there several times.

And that will be my next question.

B. But, please; I am telling you; please - I do not remember what

was there before the "Detskly Mir".

There was some kind of building, but I do not renember what was there.

But, on that side, where Dzershinskly Street goes dow to larx Street

(Prospekt Marksa), there was a bar.

A. That there was a bar there, every dog, all the KGB employees and

all of Moscow knew.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

B. Yes, everyone knew - right.

But I do not remember what there was in this building.

A. Why did they llke to go to that bar?

B. Because there was always crayfish and beer there.

Well, It was an interesting bar.

There were several bars in Moscow.

w-,...

But this bar was called precisely "Bar".

It was in a basement and it had a low celling.

A. Waen did they chango the name, "Bar"?

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is sessing

...

B. I do not remember; the name, 'Bar", was changed to "Pivnoy Zal

(Beer Hall)"; "Pivnoy Zal" Number Such-and-such, "Pivnoy Lal"

Number Two.

A. Imagine - if you worked in the KGB In 1953, 1051, 1955, 1056,

1957, 1953, etc., then probably every day you walised on

Dzherzbinskly Square from sone side.

B. Certainly.

A. You went on Dzherzhinskly Street from one side or another sonewhere.

B. Yes.

A. You probably passed along Kuznetskly Host' every day.

B. Yes.

A. I can in so way believe that you have forgotten what there was

in the place "Detskly Mir" ((now stande)).

B. I do not remember, I do not remember.

A. Impossible.

B. I do not remember, I tell you I do not remember.

I myself can give you an examole.

Anyone can becone confused.

A. For what reason do you give this example?

This is another question.

We can return to this later.

Well, anyway, what about the Komsonol?

•B. I told you about it absolutely accurately, the vay I remember it.

So, so, so.

A. Nell, what dild you speak about with the Konsonol Comnittee Secretary

of the HYD the first time you saw him?

B. It was not only the Secretary of the Komsonol Committee who spoke

with me the first time -it was olther SOOLOY o KOZ'HIN, one of

!..-

these bureau members.

COND DI

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A. "ell, what did he ask you:

B. It was about were I was on the rolls, when I entered the consool,

what kind of konsonol tasiss I have had, whether I held a responsible

Komsomol position.

A. One minute, he asked you where you were on the rolls.

What did you tell him:

((Pause)) He did not ask me like that; he asked when I entered;

I told him I entered the Konsomol in 1943.

So, I had had no punishmau:s.

Had I been elected to a responsible position:

I was once elected in the Var East, where I started to work in 1950;

I had been elected in 1951.

I was elected Secretary of the Party organization; this was my only

elective office, but I fulfilled other tasks as a rank-and-file

Komsomol member.

A. Again ... Party or Komsomol:

B. Konsonol.

• Where was I last on the rolls:

I told him I was at the Navy Intelligence Point cn the Baltic, in the

Fourth Navy Fleet.

I was on the rolls there for only a few months.

That else did he ask me:

I do not remember.

He might have asked about my family status, about education....

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

A. Well, I will ask a leading question - where was your personal

Konsonol file located when you were working in the Baltic:

B. What Komsonol file:

Here, there is only a personal Komsonol record card.

A.

There was it?

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.. 1o, int

B. I do not know, I do not %now, I can not say.

A. If you were the Secretary of the Konsonol organization of the Second

Chief Directorate, even without knowing where the card had been in

the Baltic area, you would be able to answer this question.

• B. Very roll, I can tell you, of course, according to how it is supposed

to be.

I am telling you, not because I remember - I do not remember;

the

card, of course, should be in the Political Department.

In the Political Departrent there 1s a section, a Komsomol Committee,

which guides all of the Konsonol organizations, all of the primary

organizations in the Fourth Fleet.

But, I do not remember that, and I tell you I do not remember.

A. Hell, when the Secretary asked you where you were enrolled, he had

in nind where your card was; what did you answer him!

B. I told him that I was a Komsonol member of the konsonol organization

of the Navy Intelligence Point of the Fourth Navy Fleet.

That is all.

Do you think that they ask that the card be sent.

Nothing of the kind.

They issue a new one.

A. Nell, are you telling the way it was in fact or are you making this

up just to pass the time away:

B. I am not making anything up.

A. When you say ....

B. Nell, then they should have asked me, there in the MVD, "Tell us

the number of the military unit to which to send for inquiries'.

But no one asked me these things.

A. If they did not ask you these things, how could they request your

card?

B.

I as telling you that they certainly did not ask for the card.

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A. How does this conform with the Regulations

B. I do not remenber.

A. We again are confronted with a question - whether, ((as)) you say,

they did not request your card, or you do not remenher.

B. I do not say that they ild not icquest it; I an saying, that they

did not asis me.

A. It means that you were not in the Konsomol.

B. ((In a lot voice.)) I can not say anything nore; think what you want.

A. He will not say this is "think what you want'.

B. I cannot tell you anything nore.

I tell you I am trying, explaining the way I know it; mat I know,

I know; what I do not know, I do not know.

A. To hear a Secretary of a Konsonol organization say that they did

not request the card but issued a new one - this is absurd.

B. Why did I make that conclusion.

Because no one asked me

- neither the girl in the registry group,

nor the nember of the bureau of the Komsomol asked ne anything

((such as)) "Listen ((B's surnane)), let us write down where and what."

A. Hell, it would be logical to ask this; let us assume ....

B. Logical, logical.

In case they had to request my card from the oid place where I was

on the rolls, it would be logical for them to ask ne; this is why I

made the conclusion that they did not request it.

A. Then how could it happen, for example, 1f you came to them

they

accepted you for work in the KGB - we will assume you came to the

Secretary of the MVD Konsonol with the Komsomol card.

The Konsonol card does not indicate tho punishment.

If there are, in the Konsonol card, ten punishnents, then what about

the questions of accepting you for work in the organs of the liVD?

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B. The punishments will be indicated in the Personnel filc.

The Personnel file will indicate that you had a punishnent in the

Party or Konsonol.

Indeed it will be there.

A. It will be there, that Is true, but the basic document for konsonol

punishments is the Xonsono). card.

D. The card on the jossonol nember which is maintained on him at the

place where he is on the rolls.

A. 'My question - all of the time, to have been going over it the whole

day - hor could they put you on the rolls of the komsonol without

seeing your komsomol card.

3. I did not just come in off the street.

Look how you are making your judgement - as if it were the Komsomol

Committee accepting me for work.

I already was accepted for work -- this is the work of Personnel.

Now would the Konsomol Cormittee regulate the work of Personnel:

No.

A. Again - you know little about what goes on.

No one says that the Xonsomol Comittee controls the work.

For a man who was just about to leave the Komsonol, the Secretary of

the Konsonol Committee probably will speak to the Personnel Department

about what they think.

They have plenty of their ow over-age personnel ((Konsonol members)).

B. I do not know whether they talked or not = they would not inform me.

A. Had you not been a Secretary, perhaps it would not be worthwhile

asking these questions - because, as a Secretary of a Konsonol

organization, you must know this, because it is dally and routine work.

You do not have to learn the work, lt works itself in.

P.--RI--1

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B. You are confusing se a little bit; you see how it was - I vas the

Secretary of a small jonsonol organization.

It 15 just additional work.

There are kossonol Secretaries mo make It leir profession.

A. I have already said that 1f you vere just a Secretary

....

B. This, I would have to know about party - Konsool wor!: Ilke God.

i. Then, perhaps, I would ask nore questions than I au asking.

Most of that you have said nales it difficult to believe that you

vere a Secretary.

There is no basis to belleve it.

((Long pause.)) Let us assume that you are the Secretary of a konsonol

organization; there are only 15 members; you simply execute the work

of a Secretary, but you have other, operational work.

Then did you find tie for a Konsomol meeting.

B. Once or twice every three months.

1. Nell, again - you are saying this dellberately; right?

But the Regulations state how many neetings there are to be.

Of course, it is not necessary that these regulations alvays be

observed, but someone checks, and the Secretary always is asked i1 a

meeting was held or not.

B. You are making a big issue of this; you are judging strictly

officially, according to how the Regulations are to be followed.

Approach this differently - what is the Komsomol organization:

It is a small organization, just so and so many are in 1t - what can

one do with this small organization.

It is a different thing if it is the Komsomol organization of

Surveillance - it is a huge one.

A. But, as far as I know

....

B. In a large organization, the pot has to keep boiling o indeed, they

u111 require a huge organization ((to operate)) strictly.

But a snail organization

.. . .

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A. The rall wor' goes on in the Second Chiel Dircctorate, not in

Survelllance, the chief worl:.

The rost important is Countcrintellirence, then Surveillance.

B. I ais talking, about the konsonol organiration.

A. Hell, wo will say that you do not call the neetings as frequently as

the Regulations call for.

No one will deny this.

But, 1f you do not call nectings at all, soneone maies a check on then.

((XG; A and B speak at the sane time.))

... But not one time in three nonths -- this is absurd.

B. Not at all absurd.

I tell you nore than half - 80 percent - of the members are typists

and secrotaries fron other departnents.

How can I pose a question concerning work in a necting of the Komsomol

organization:

I cannot do that.

First of all, the people come from different dopartments.

These are support people, not opcrational.

It is a different thing if it is a Party organization or Konsomol

organization in a departuent, but there were none in the depurtments

of the Second Chief Directorate.

Here, questions closely connected with work are raised.

A. This is all understandable.

B. And here we discuss how a Konsonol member must behave, or, we will

say, a Plenus, a Plenum of the Konsomol of a Plenum of the CC of the

Party has just been held - and this is the talk of the Konsonol

organization.

Minety-nina (99) percent of our talk it about the Plenum and our

agreenent with it.

to could not talk about work, because such is the set-up of the

Somsonol organization.

II, fos example, ((8's surnane)) tore Secretary of the konsorol

- і .

ппАпат

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orranization of tho Second Speclal Departnent - then ve could discuss

operational matters, because everyone belongs to the sanc shop, but

here all the members are fron different departuents.

Say, one secretary to SUBYA OV; another to GRIBLiON.

A. Hell, one more last question today - how did you write in answering

in the anota, when you were in GRU, the question of taothor you had

had any wounds or contusions

B. "Tio", "no"; the answer was "no".

A. Kell, how did you explain the round on your hand.

В. То то.

A. Nell, to the GRU.

B. No one asked me; I did not tell anyone there.

A. May, do you think no one asked.

B. I do not know shy.

I tell you that I never wrote this in the anketa.

If I had been asked, I rould have said that it occured entirely

accidently and so forth.

I would stick to the legenda wich I told in the Leningrad School.

A. Neil, as an employee of 11 years in counterintelligence do you not

thin's that if they vere accepting you into the KGB, on that day or

later they would try to establish the truth.

B. But It was recorded nostere.

A. But it is recorded on your hand.

B. Hell, alright; no one asked ne.

It is not in the Personnel file

... Do, not in the GRU; it is not

recorded anywhere.

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A. liell, do you thin' 1t 15 logical to accept a nan for a joh in tho

Second Chief Dircctorate tithout choc.ing hiu - checking him through

the dedical Commission - and only to belier? hla rich he says he is

healthy.

B. I do not know; they saw ... they received a file fron the GrU, where

there tas a Medical Conmission report of my examination of the tine

ven I vas going into the liavy GRU.

A. Quite a bit of tine had passed

...

B. They did not send me to the "edical Commission.

I told you that I went tro or three tines in all while I was worl: ing

in the KGB.

A. Holl, between us, while you fere forking in the KGB, did you ever

explain to anyone mat had happened to your hand:

B. Never - the question never came up; no one ever asied, and I never

explained to anyone.

A. Well, do you think Personnel is so stupid that it never would dig this

up and would not find out:

B. I absolutely do not think that they know about it at ail.

A. You do not think that anyone checked on your service ((and on)) when

this incident occurred?

B. Understand - my work in GRU began when I completed the Institute,

and they opened the file on ne fron that time.

A. That is understandable.

B. That 18 ... Just a ninute ... from that nonent ...

of my first job,

my first job, they opened a file on ne.

They took me fron the reserve ....

Then I graduated fron the second course, I was given the rank of

second lleutenant in the reserve.

They tox se frow the reserve to active duty, and they opened the f1le

.. on ne; that 1s all.

rapped ta. paste

insensit

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A, then you came into the fll, did they accept you tithout your going

throuch the Medical Comission:

B. I tient through the Comission, iut no one assed ie.

They examined no; so what - vas ny hand deforned

l'o.

They astied 1f I had been at the front.

No.

Here you in battle?

No, I was not in battle.

That is all.

They saw my age; I could not have fought.

----

A. Holl, if you really served in the Soviet Army of Navy, I think they

would not have exanined you so simply, in the way you describe it.

B. Well, no.

I went through the Comnission, through a number of doctors.

I had blood tests and X-rays.

No one asked me anything.

Il I had had two fingers missing, say, then perhaps they rould have

asked me.

Hell ... two fingers missing ....

A. Every dostor looks at the hands, and, of course, he would immediately

ask, "That is this:"

B. Look here, I have other scars - look here; my finger was split

almost in half - no one asked about it.

A. Do you think it is possible to belleve that it went to simply?

B. I do not know whether you can belleve it - I an telling you how it was.

A. This 1s simply an "out".

B. I tell you I went through the Commission, and no one asked ne.

price?.

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A. You nust inow that there is a certain procedure in the KGB.

(XG) .

Everyone gocs through the Cornission -- one hundred percent.

B. I told you that I did not so through the Cornission.

Thy.

Why.

Because the matter went through the top - instructions tere given

by Personnel, fron the top.

It was not Porsonnel that sclected mo; it was not Personnel thich

found ne.

You understa::

After that, I was given an "excused acceptance", 1f I can express

myself that way - excused; it was unusual.

A. Nell, that do you thin; happened after this "excused acceptance" -

later, when IOCULOV was arrested

B. The only thing I know is wat KOVSHUK and GORBATENKO told me -

that ROTHANKO rent over to see GORDATENKO, Chief of the First

Department, and said, "You renomber, they accepted ((B's surname)).

This vas on KOBULOV's instructiong."

There was tals; what it as about, where they talked about it, where

the question was decided - no one sumroned me or spoke to me about it.

That ROZHENKO vent over, I know from KOVSHUK and GORBATENKO.

Besides that when I began working in the First Department I spoke

about my wori and also told GORBATINKO, Chief of the Departnent, how

it happened that I had landed in this job.

I told him just as I have told you how it happened.

A. Well, 11 you had told it llise this to BORBATENKO, he would belleve it,

but if you told it to ROZIENKO llke that he would not helleve it.

B. I tell you that neither the case officer no ROZHENKO asked ne; no

che asked me how do you know KOBULOv.

there do you know him fron?

May did you ask KOBULOY?

No one asked a word.

154.

SRARET

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A. This 15 not the question I ar as:in?.

B. No; I as saying that no one asied De.

Please understand -- ROZIENO could not as such a question, because

the instructions were from KOCULOV ....

How it ras there, I do not :now;

he probably looied at the namo -

"Iho 1s he, this ((D's surname)); on -- ((D's surnaue)); his son

is a Minister; vell, then everything is clear; thy did KODULOV

telephone. -

it neans that ((B's surname)) knovs KOBULOV.'

Well, sonehow, there was a tall; that is all.

A. Even 11 one is the son of a minister and even ii iOBULOV recommended

the son of the minister, that office does not vor: the may you

describe.

B. I am telling you the way it ras.

It was another thing with ROZlENKO.

A. Of course, they could not refuse because of the higher-ups, but

nevertheless it is their duty to send you to the ledical Commission.

It does not matter whether the Commission will find you fit or not;

the decision is nade afterwards.

B. No one sent me to the Commission; nothing was done.

Further, I turned in a copy of ny certificate of graduation fron the

Institute; I gave it to SAKHAROV, Personnel officer of the Second

Directorate, when I already was vorising, working.

A. Well, we will return to this later.

It 1s enough for today.

I hope that you will think this over and give the right answers -

not those which you have given.

B. I only can say that I have given you only (correct. ) answers.

A. (In English.)) That's all.

B. Goodbye.

A.

Goodbye.

((Bnd of A/S Session, 28 July 1965))

SHORET

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7018

((reginning of A/B Session, 29 July 1055))

A. Well, fiere shall ve bogin today?

B. I au at jour disposal; the questions are yours.

A. Let us to back to that first time shen you completed the aniota,

to start worl: in the MVD.

B. I have thought about this question, and I cannot tell you for sure if

I completed the anieta and turned it in to the case officer fron

ROZIENKO's section or... or I completed the anceta when I came in on

the second day after I spose with SHUZNYAKOV.

Or, the personnel man, of the Second Chief Directorate, SAKHAROV, gave

It to me.

But I definitely remember coupleting both the anketa and tro auto-

biographies at home.

A. The first question 15 --ily tro coples; why not one.

B. Two copies, tro copies.

A. They did not have such a procedure then.

B. Absolutely - tho copies.

A. You said that there were four or six pages to the anlieta; that, too,

Is not true.

B. It is absolutely true; I do not remenber whether it was four or six.

A. Not four, and not six.

B. Look - one, two, three, four - I want to say sheets; that is all.

Three or four sheets; not nore.

A. The last time, you spoke about pages, and this time you are talking

about sheets; there is a difference between pages and sheets.

B. A pago, a page o it is one side; on the other side of the sheet is

another page.

072 19/109

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A. The same as in a boo! - one, trio, three, four.

B. Well, that is that I an tellins you -as I told you last time; four

pares or si: paces, I do not renember.

A. For your inforaation, it was neither four nor sir.

How many.

You should knos, l? you really completed this anteta, especially since

you said that you completed it several tines then you case in and after

that.

Well, did you recall what the anticta is called'

B. No; anketa.

A. Well, that is written on the first page of the antieta?

B. The first page is like a books.

A. Presume that this is the anketa ((A hands a sheet of paper to B.)).

B. ((Atteapts to show where the heading is placed on the form:)) This

is the anicta; yes...here, on the top, is written, "Aniseta'....

Here is an empty space.

Then, there is a ruled space;

on the leit side, questions; on the

right side, ansvers.

A. That is the anketa called?

B. Simply "Anketa.

At the top, there is printed, in small letters, "Form 26" or "21" -

I do not renenber.

A. That else is printed on 1t?

B. Nothing nore.

A. Explain to me - you worked for many years in the Second Chief

Directorate - when they recruit an agent, a Soviet citizen, any

citizen, what kind of anketa do they give him to fill out.

1".i

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. . .

B. I nover rave ono to an agent; I syself recruited açents.

I never save them an aniela to cosplete; I conpleted the anicta

nyself.

You yourself complete the anketa on a recruited agent.

1. liat kind of anicta

What is it neant for?

B. I will tell you right now; this, I renember.

There are two sheets; four pages

...

two sheets

two sheets.

jes, it is

A. ((Long pause.)) Well, that is it for?

You yourself recruited then, you yourself completed it.

Please - tell mo.

B. On the first sheet there is a place for photos; in the upper right-

hand corner, there is a square for the photo.

"Anketa", then, for a "resident", "agent" - you underline the

appropriate designation. ((Long pause.))

A. That -- is it so hard to describe?

You recruited, you coapleted thes, and you should know.

• B. I do not remember, I do not renenber, I do not rerember.

Usually, you put in the surname, first name, patrongnic (XG); when

you have filled in the anieta, you receive a folder for the personal

file.

A. I am not asking you about the folder;

we will come back to it.

B. Why am I telling you this?

---

On the folder, there is the number of the personal file (XG).

A. You said the anketa has four pages; tell me about this enketa;

the

personal file folder is something else - we will talk about it.

B. The anketa for an agent is completed after he has been registered, and

he is registered alter he nas been recruited, after the recruitment.

SECRET

---

## Page 19

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1750939384547 479145001399

- 13 .

The first report is for the rccruitient, the second part, on the

recruitment, and at the end of the report you asl: for permission to

Include him in the active agent netrork of the Second Calet

Directorate.

Only then do ve conplete the ancta.

A. We began tal:ing about the abbota.

what is the anicta'

- -

You told me that there are four sides, that in the right corner there

is a place for a photo.

What is this anieta called?

Again, we return to this question.

You were not able to tell ne that the anketa ((for KGB employees)) 1s

called...

B. And I cannot nane this, elther...

((XG; A and B speak at the same tine.))

A. Niell, if a man has worked there for il years, he must have had no

less than 50 agents ....

B. If not more, if not more.

A. More.

B. More.

A. And if, as you said, they thenselves do not complete the anketa, then

you probably filled out no less than

50 anketas, and you must know

this Anketa.

B. Well, part of these I did not fill out, because some of the agents

I received already had been recruited.

-wism,.30..1100.1°

A. Hell, anyway, you looked at their tiles.

B. (2-3G).

Poetre

SECRET

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## Page 20

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-13 -

A. Well, toll about these antictas.

You vere working, you filled then out, you had agents, you had their

porsonal files: what is the anicta

B. I cannot tell you, I cannot tell you by heart, I cannot.

((XG; A and B speal: at the same tine.))

-

Here is the inkota: in the right-hand corner, the -photo.

It is underlined -- mon the file ropresents: "resident", "agent";

at the same tine, you put in the number of the file, which you already

know.

Then you write in the pseudonym;

then, the surnane, first name and

patronymic; the date and place of birth: nationality; education ....

What else is there.

That is all for the first page...

Residence ... no, no, no, no ... I remember - the residence comes

later.

Now, on the opposite side ... ((Long pause.)) on the first page

... од

the oppositc side of the first sheet

.. •

on the second page... on the

opposite side ((Appears nervous.)) ... by whom recruited:

Then you wite in whether he was recruited on compromising materials

or on an ideological basis; then you add

wnen he ras recruited

Then ... second sheet, third page ... oh, yes, yes - on the first, the

very first page, the place of work

... I already told that ....

So ... well, here, I do not remember what was on top, but on the

bottom - about his relatives ... about the agent's relatives, briefly,

about them - surname, first name, patronymic, date of birth, place of

work, address, telephone; that is all - I do not remember more.

A. The only conclusion I can draw from your description of the anketa is

that a man who has worked there for ll years should not describe this

anketa only in general terms; even 11, as you say, you have a poor

memory, after working ll years there, you are supposed to know at

least ninety percent of this anketa as well as you know your ow

five lingers.

He: SBERBT

---

## Page 21

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- 20 -*

B. I told you about olghty - ninety percent.

A. You even cannot rive a superficial description of it -- that it is

called, etc.

B. I told you -- anictu for a resident or agent.

A. I think that this is not the talk of a man wto has worked there for

Il years and who had quite a number of agents, residents, informants.

and other emplojees - buttho knows the documents very poorly.

Let us go back again to the anticta of the Personnel file.

Can you still not tell me what it was called - the one you filled

out on yourself?

B. Simply anketa, simply anketa.

A. Are you sure you filled out such an anketa'

B. The anxeta, yes.

A. And did you fill it out

• B. Yes, yes.

A. How does it happen that ((you do not knor that)) it does not have

four or six pages, and that it is not called simply anketa".

B. I do not know how it happens.

I an telling you wat I remember.

You ask me, and I am answering you.

A. Consider - a counterintelligence man cannot just sinply say that he

does not remember.

He has worked for ll years - this is his bread and butter; it is

his daily work.

Every day he bumps up against these anketas;

avery day — he cannot

avoid then.

Even if you do not see the agent, you go through his personal file;

11 you do not go through his file, then you go to the Archive to take

a 100k.

You just cannot get around them.

SECRET

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## Page 22

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SECRET.

- 21 -

....

• -

B. You are alsolutely right.

d. there, this, is your nowledie rasarding this; way has your

knowledge of then evaporated so quic::ly

B. I do not linow, I do not linor.

A, Hell, in rewird to the ancta of the employec mich you said you

completed, 1 -- on the basis of your reply - conclude that you have

not the sllihtest idea about this anlieta.

What else bosides this anketa did you complete men entering on duty

with the KGB:

All of the enployces fill it out.

B. I told you that I completed an anceta -- two copies -- and that I

nade two copies of the autobiograply, and I turnod in some photos.

Then It was necessary to sign the secrecy agreement, regarding state

and military secrets, which ras given me by SikhoRov.

A. Till, what was this secrecy agreement.

That was it called.

B. I do not ronember; there was only one sheet.

A. That was printed on it:

B. "I

" - here you put your surnane, name and patronymic;

the rest is printed; you sign and date it.

A. That does it require of you:

B. It requires one to safeguard military secrets, and if one breaks it

he will be punished under Soviet law, etc. (2G).

A.

Well ...

B. The secrecy agreement (podpiska).

A. That vas it calledi

B. I do not renember, I do not remember.

--..

SECRET

. *-

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## Page 23

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- 22 -

1 4037: i

..;

" soon

A, That is the diffcrence between this shoet and the one that agents

Thom you rccruited sign

B. liell... an archt ... It depends on that is decided -- that lind of

porson he is: sonctines you take a raspisia or a (podpisia) fros

the agent.

--A. Tell, let us say, you have talion it ....

B. Well, you have talien it; you tell the agent ... you do not dictate

the podpista to his...

Mait one minute; I will tell you, and you will

write 1t"....

Then you tell him "You must write such a raspiska, podpiska, that

'I, such and such -- surnane, first name and patronymic -- freely

wish to cooperate with the organs of the KG3; I pronise to safcguard"....

A. But what 1f it 1s not voluntary, but "voluntary urder pressure":

B. Nell, let hin write "voluntarily" ((Laughs.))

You understand, it is already ....

Usually, he writes, "I volunter to cooperate.

If he has been recruited on conpronising materials, you have put bia

in such a position that he nust agree.

•

A. That is right.

But there are those who do not agree.

B. Well, it has happened that a recruitment has not taken place.

A. Nell, there are those who agree and sign in the end: how is this

handled?

B. To my thinking, here this is not voluntary consent, of course.

In such a case ....

Perhaps be can write that "I, so-ind-so, Involuntarily glve my

consent to cooperate."

A. Agals, let us return to the secrecy agreement which you signed

what is it called - the one about not divulging secrets - what

was it called?

to a 0d: -

• estab and goes, 9)

SECRET

---

## Page 24

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- 23 -

I do not remembor, I do not reacher, " do not resember.

A. I am sure you must have signed it several times during your ll years

of work.

B. Yes, I know - two or threc tines.

A. What was the reason for signing it two or three tises.

D. Well, I do not know, I do not know.

A. You signed it two or three tines ....

B. Not only I, but everyone, everyone.

A. Particularly the first timo - then you started working for the NVD -

you had to sign it.

What was this sheet of paper calle, and what was printed on it:

B. I told you what it contained.

A. You said practically nothing.

B. Well, that "I, such and such - surname, first nane and patronymic:

((B's full name)) ...."; then comes the printed text;

then 'I pledge

to safeguard state and military secrets."

A. Approxinately when did you sign it:

B. Then I had begun to work; I already had begun working.

A. What - after a year.

B. No - after a few days; perhaps, when I was handing in the anketas.

I signed it in SAKHAROV's office.

A. That you told me about swearing not to divulge secrets is wrong.

There was no such document as you describe it; and the sheet did

not say what you describe.

B. I am giving you the idea jehind it.

SBERET

---

## Page 25

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SECRET

• 21 c

A. It is not a natter of the thout of it; you started out, "I,

((B's surnano)), so-and-so..." -- that is not mat it says.

B. liell, there is a blaii, and you fill in your name.

A. But not that way.

B. To my thinking, I signed this more than one time; at one tine, all

of the departments conpleted this forn.

A. Perhaps you signed it, but not the ray you describe it.

The Personnel Department does not work the ray you say.

I canuot understand in any way were the bones lie hidden - If you

were there, you must know; if you were not, then say so.

B. I tolú you.

I would tell you, and we would not have such long discussions.

A. That keeps you from saying?

P. Nothing is holding me back - I an telling you the vay it was.

A. Hell, I ask you that anketa you coupleted when you vers coming in -

you do not know the name of the anteta; you do not describe it

properly; you do not give the proper dinensions, etc.

If you made small errors I absolutely would not pay attention to ther,

but you are talking about such ingeasurably different things.

What you say about the anketa you filled out and the anketa you gave

to agents to complete all adds up to one thing - you were not there,

and you do not know.

B. Well, it looks that way to you.

A. That is the way ((1t seems)), not only to ne, but to everyone; in

all of the discussions, you cannot answer the simplest questions.

B. (Angrily)) Very voll, you can tell ne that I am not at all

((B's surnane)), that I am not fron Russia, but fron uruguay.

SECRET

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## Page 26

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'SECRET

-2; -

1. Perhaps, perhags; because that is the may it comes out.

You say that you torted there for ll years, but you do not snow that

the anton which agents complete is called; you said you had lusiness

during the 11 years with more than 50 agents.

B. Hell, I had lusiness viti agents, with hundreds of thea.

A. Then you should know.

B. lever in my life did I vork that may - maybe I did not do anything

over there, bit I never worked llie that in my life.

Nould I sit dorn and say, 'Ah….. how is this form written up that

is in the anketa?"

A. You did not have to study it.

((XG; A and B speak at the same tine.))

B. The real things ... when one starts to for!:.

Ninety percent of the KGB employees wor's that way.

Nothing rood in them; they only sit and study forms, but they are

working.

Hell, naybe I an a strange person... maybe sonething else is wrong

with ne.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

Alright, naybe I an starnge ... I say, naybe; I do not know; I

do not renember.

A.. How is it that a man starts vorking for the MD, signs a statement,

((but)) does not know what it is called and what it says.

B. That does it say? I gave you the idea of 1t: to safeguard state and

nilitary secrets; one is wained against divulging..

: Yiolations.. one must be punished according to Soviet law.

SECROS

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## Page 27

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SECRET

- 2G

Trie:

Not true;

tiat is not corrcet.

Up to 19j3, in 1033, and aiter 1953, there vere certain papers

which more signed by employces upon entering ID and those sho

vere voring. there;

and I vant you to tell me wat you slined.

That you told me absolutely is not correct.

If you know, toll me;

what you told se does not fit.

B. I know nothing, more.

A. Well, further ...

that else did you fill out.

B. I filled out nothing nore.

A. There is sonething else you must complete; you cannot avoid it:

((Pause.)) There is sonething else that is filled out, all ...

absolutely everyone has to fill it out - whoever norks in the

WVD or shoever coses to work there.

B. I do not know.

A. Hell, I will olve you a leading question - It is filled out not

only in the KGB, but also in the MVD, in the Militia, and in the

NoOp at the present time... at that tine, in the LVD, 'GB, Militia and

also nany other organizations.

You cannot get around® this in any raj, because it is a document rich

is confirned by the CPSU Central Comittee - every man must complete

, It, although it is of no special significance for the IVD or the KGB.

B. I do not know.

A. Well, in the nature of your work - as I think over ((your)) 1l years —

you probably say Personnel files on enployees who had been released:

B. Yes.

A. Did you personally see the Personnel files on the employees!

B. ((Speaks with uncertalnty.» I saw; I gaw.

---

## Page 28

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- 27 -

- -1

A. Fell, at least ve can proccod from here.

Haen you opened the file, it is there;

and you personally filled

it out - laybe one tine, majbe tuo tines, probably a couple times

over the l1 years, you conpleted this form.

It is also an anieta, but it is not called "Intcta."

I do not inow what otici kind oi loading question I can cive you.

mere you torted before - you snow this on the-anicta.

•... Your service record.

I do not know, I do not linow.

On the next to last sheet is indicated your whole, mole service

record, since completion of the institute.

1. For your information, that which you are thinking about now and

what you say is not on the next to last page.

B. On the next to last page -- I remember this absolutely accuratoly.

On the last page ... ah ... the elected positions are indicated --

elections as deputy, medals, inventions.

But the next to last page concerned service.

A. The last page contins nothing; it is blank.

в. No, по, по;

the last page asks if you have been elcoted - for example,

as a deputy, a judge - have you invented anything, have you any

scientific works, awards, and the signature comes on the last page.

A. That is not the vay it is.

B.

It is absolutely right - I renenver this.

A. Well, again - what other anketa had to be completed:

That was it called'

B. I cannot say; I do not know;

I cannot say; I do not remember.

Haat document you have in mind I do not know.

You say it is not the ankota - I do not know what it 1s.

+ i.

SECRET

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## Page 29

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-29-

1. Tiell, It is not called a anticta, but in senoral, it too is an aniela;

but it is not called an "inicta".

Therc arc cion tro other docunchts in the Personnel file.

lic will roturn to toi, later.

The one

vic are talling about 1:.

ilar in questions to the "Ankcta".

( (Pauso.)) Really, I seriously

→..•

B. And I an scrious; I now you are not kiddins;

I understand you.

((Pause.)) I do not remember; I do not !:now.

((Long pause.)) I do not linow.

A. Did you ever coplete or sign a service record (posluchnoy spiso:)

B. I myself never filled one out; this 1s Personnel's business.

I only did, as told you, on the last, the next to last page, indicated

all my employnent from 1915 to 1950.

No - I even indicated tine spent at high school; but I do not

renember the nuber of the school.

for 1945 to 1950, I indicated the Institute and then, the places there

I worked: Sovetskaya Gavan -- Intolligence of the 7th Fleet; In the

Baltic, Sovetsi:.

A. I do not want this - we already have passed this stage - you know

nothing about the anketa.

And I do not thin': we need return to it until you tell ne wat it is

about, what it is called, and if you really filled it out.

If you did, you must know.

If you cannot tell me, you never completed it and never saw it, and

you never were in the lYD.

Now, we are talking about the service record.

That did you hear about it, and what is it?

B. I never completed a service record.

This is a document for officers of the Army, the MGB, or the AVD;

It is completed by Personnel men.

A. I asked you if you completed it and signed it.

B.

I did not couplete it, I did not complete

it

SECRET

i

1. 8

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## Page 30

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SECRET

- 30 -

A. This is not the net to last pace, but in tie midule of tie anticta.

You do not know the size of tic anicta, and I do not intend tellin" you.

E. You do not have to tell.

I renonher - it is on the next to last page.

But here you do not show your positions as you do in the service

record.

A. Hell, if there was such a seotii.. in the neth, what ins this

section called.

Again you were wrony when you said that the position is not indicated

there.

There the positions are indicated exactly, and there is a special

column for this.

B. Yes, the position 1s shorn, because I mote, for crample - translator,

Intelligence, 7th Mavy Flcet; city, Sorets:aya Gavan.

A. Vell, do not five se now sone confiration that you vere a translator.

He will return to this question.

Further - lot us lay aside the natter of the service record.

Perhaps you signed it, just so ....

But, again, it is not understandable way it took the VD three or

four years to have you sign it.

For your infornation, the service record is sritten up on a newly

accepted officer, no matter there he cane fros - fron ailitary

Intelligence or the GRU - or whether he is a military officer or not,

as soon as the order on his acceptance in the organs of the UVD is

signed.

B. Excuse me; perhaps I can add sonething and correct you.

A. Please, please.

SECHST

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## Page 31

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SECHET

- 3) -

...$

B. Perhaps you have so-thin!: clse in mind here.

Loo!: - the Second Chief Directorate; there is their own Personnel

officer ....

Inis Personnel officer docs not have the files on all of the employces

in the Sccond Chief Directoratc; they are in Central Personnel.

This Personnel officer, fron the noncht of the new officer s

accoptance as an caployce, opens

a personal record card (lichnaya

uchetnaya cartochka) as a substitute for the service record.

A. I know that sind of card it is and where they keep it.

B. The Personnel officer Iceps it, fros the nowent of his acceptance,

because the Personnel officor does not have the Personnel file; but

the service record, I signed only one time - I do not know by whon

It was filled out, by Central Personnel or by SAlAROV.

At the end of this service record, it states that as of such and such

a date, you have so many years, months and days of service.

A. My question was - why did it taic the ID four ycars

.....

B. I do not know;

I cannot say; I do not remember; I do not know.

A. According to the regulations - and every Personnel officer knows

this - the service record is filled out as soon as the order ((of

acceptance)) is signed; rell, naybe, tro or three days will pass

((before this is done)); in auy case, not nore than a week.

In this service record, the order number is recorded, as well as is

the position and office assignment.

B. Hell, it is probable that the Personnel officer put it there right

a way

A. In the service record.

B. Tals is dove by the Personnel officer, never by the employee himself.

((XG; A and B speak at the same time.))

I saw it the first time... maybe it was... it was

... this service

racord

... in the Personnel file in the GRU ... in the Personnel file

it

was.

SECRET

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## Page 32

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Wit:

1. That is anotior sorulee record;

there is a bly difference.

B. lin, no; I an saying that there ins a series record there.

Fron the borinning, probably ....

I sai it only one tiro; they sioind it to ie, not tith the Personnel

file, but separately, as vas done vili all the caployces.

A. Please

do not rict upset.

B. No, I ais just tollin; you low it ras.

A. Becausc, as soon as the order is signed to employ you, the service

record is opened, and the employce is invited over.

If he ras in the GRU or tas slaply in tray officer, this is checied

against the old service record to find out shother it all has been

filled out corrcctly, day by day, so that there are no errors.

Then, a new service record is started on the enpluyce.

He signs it, and perhaps he will never see it again.

B. Vell, one tie ... but not right aisy.

A. No one is saying that this is done on the second day

B. I already mas vorking in the Sevent Departnent ....

A. Let us leave the service record.

That othor anota is there -- it is not called "An"ota". But something

else; everyone, one-hundred percent, fills out this anirta....

B. I do not know.

A.

... Working in the organs

....

You know, when you told me rout signing the secrecy agreement, etc

...

B. Xes.

A. The way you described its fornat, lt seened as 11 you were not a

staffer, but an agent; for agents, this fornat begins approximately

they way you described it; but, for staffers ....

B. Well, there was no fornat for agents - neither printed nor typed;

agent wrote it hingelf, in his on handeriting.

• 1441

SECRET

the

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## Page 33

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HEBORST

- 33

?

A. I did not say nother it was printed or not; I sinply said that it

was the saac fornat.

B. To absolutcly different things ....

((IG; A and E speas at the sane tiao.))

A. Pell, approxinately resenüling ((the format for)) in agent.

B. The agent has a completely diffurcht agrcement -- that he voluntarily

has agreed to coopcrate rith the organs of the GB or VD and that ...

for conspiracy's sa'e ho has such and such a pseudonya, and he will

sign his reports with it.

A. Tell me what you sign. tien you cane to work for the MiD.

B. I told you.

A. You told no nothing -- you only said norsense.

B. Tell, you any accept ny explanation or not.

I cannot lie to you or think up something.

I told you that the fornat tas and the thought benind it; I do not

remcaber it rord for ford.

One printed sheet ....

You write in your surname, first none, patronynic, and then the

rest is printed - "I swear to guard the state and military secrets,

and 11 I violate this, I will be punished under Soviet lan"....

A. That is not right.

B. ... And you sign it.

A. It is not right ((about the vords)), "I will be punished under Soviet

-?:. law" - such an agreement has not been enforced since 1940.

B. No ... well... I am telling you the thought, the thought.

If you worked there, then you should know this very well.

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SECRET

-? .

B. icll ... responsible accordin:: to Soviet law, for divul jing state

and military scerets.

The vords "To be punisned (arat'sya)" should he thrown out.

A. Hell, anyray, what other careta is there.

B. I do not !:now.

A. Did you cver see or do you now about the Spravia Fora lio. 1?

B. No; I do not linow, I do not know.

A. And you never had anything to do with it.

B. I do not know, I do not know.

1. And you never saw such a sprayla.

B. (2-3G) I said that I did not see it.

A. Hell, every MVD employee sao has toried even a few months knows

precisely vant the Spravia Fort lio. 1 1s; no explanations are

required at all ...

B. I do not inow; I cannot ....

A. ... And you should now about it very well.

Especially if you had subordinates and if you were deputy chief of

section, chief of section, or higher.

Whenever you transfer them or prodote them you were supposed to see

it and not just one tine, but a hundred times.

B. Hell, soneune is transferred, pronoted ....

A. If you are promoted, for example, your case officer, PEIROV, to

senior case officer, it could not be done without the chief of section.

B. But, of course, the chief of section will wilte

....

A. Nell, if you were a chief of section, & deputy chief of departuent,

chief of department, etc., you altays see Spravla Form No. 1.

SECRET

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SECRET

- 3.3 -

P. Oil a this is that you have in mind: Fors lio. 1.

1. Oi, for example, you reconnended ....

I. I know, I tnow.

Then soncone is promoted in position or rani: -- I know this docunent;

I know it; I now it - forn io. 1.

A. That is what the Spravia is called -"Fora lio. 1."

And for your iniormation, this sprovia has nothing to do with rank,

has almost nothing to do with rank.

B. No; it also is the form for rank:.

Here, the point is ... I will tell you right now: you yourself do not

even conplete the first section (chast).

You srite sone sort of evaluation (kharakteristlia); for example --

"Conrade PETROV has been vorking in the Seventh Departnent for such

and such a tine; he is a case officer;

he has shorn hinself to be

capable in periormance of his vork; he is a good agent handler

(agenturist); he is on g00d terns with his subordinates; he has talen

an active part in operations against foreigners ...."

Then, at the end, you give the conclusion that he is quallfied for

prosotion to the position of senior case officer.

This will be signed by the chief of the departzent - or, in his

absence, the deputy chief - and it is approved by the chief of the

directorate.

Then, it goes to Personnel for the order.

A. You already have told about this in part.

B. Personnel fills out the first page themselves; for example, SAKHAROV

did this, but not the Personnel group headed by KUDREV docs it.

You write only the evaluation; the rest of it is done by Personnol.

All the necessary information is taken fron Personnel Illes, or the

Personnel officer takes it from the Personnel card (uchetnaya Kartochka).

A. Te will not talk about how it is written up, because you are not

telling it correctly and I do not even want to hear it.

2521

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!

B. I an telling you how I did it, hor it actually ras.

A. Did you ever complete it yourself:

D. Yes, I myself filled it in.

A. Well, please, tell ne what it is for.

You described the second side about right, a part of it, one tenth

of it.

If you completed it yourself, plea:-e -- continue.

B. I told you -- the first page: the surname, first name, patronymic,

rank, date of birth; length of time in grade and position, such

Information ....

A. What else?

All docunents require the information you sentioned.

B. Party affiliation ....

A. Well, this again is for everyone....

B. Well, on the second sheet, you give a orief evaluation (sharaktristika)

of him ... vell, 1t is not an evaluation (ibaraktristika) ....

A. How nany pages does this spravka have.

B. ((Long pause.)) Just the first and second sides.

That is all.

A. On the first side, you said biographic data;

what else:

B. That 1s all - that is the first page.

A. Wrong -- well, wat is there on the second side besides what you

said. besides the recommendation for assignment.

B. There la a suggestion for assignment (kharaktristika) which gives

a description of this case officer; it is signed by the chief of

the department.

Then, further down, ((18 a signature lint)) specially for the chief

other for the deputy chief or chief of the directorate, mo gives

approval.

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A .

Kell, my conclusion is that you nor nothing about Spravia lio. 1.

((Long pause.)) Well, what other aricta is there:

I an returning to the old question.

There is still another anketa vilich the empluyce hinself completes.

The Personnel file is not complete without it.

Although the anteta is not needed very auch by the liGh, neverthcless

it is provided for by the Contral Comittee of the CPSU, and everyone

completes it.

And they complote it not only in the kGB, but also in all government

institutions.

B. ((Long pause.)) No, I absolutely do not remember.

A. It particularly relates to the Komsorol and Communist Party nembers.

Some who are not konsonol or Conmunist Party members also fill it out;

for example, specialir's.

Of course, they do no: fill it out in factories, because there are

no Personnel files there.

B.

Well, yes...

((Long pause.)) I do not know.

A. I can only make the quick conclusion that you cannot confirm that you

vere an employce, not only of the Second Chief Directorate, but in

general - an employee of the dVD because you do not now the simplist

things which a slaple officer of the organs should know.

I am not dwelling on petty details.

B.. You are drelling only on petty details.

I do not know mere you get these questions; these are only petty

details.

A. From the KGB;

that is where I was trained.

B. Honest to God, you must have worked in Personnel for 20 years.

A. Hell, I was not just in Personnel, but ve will return to this.

B. tell, you had to have worked in Personnel for some time, 11 you ask

for such details:

tries orin

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1. I think you know better.

B. I do not i:now.

A. I think you know very well.

B. If you dive se your name

•••

A. He will talk about this later, when we find a conson language;

naybe we will have a drini to our health.

Now, how do you explain ....

B. I do not know how to explain; what I renember, I tell you; I am

try1ng ....

A. If one considers only that you could not answer my most elementary

questions, your approach, your processing, and your confusion of one

anketa with another - the one about divulging ((secrets)) - only

one conclusion can be made: that you did not only not nork in the

Second Chief Directorate, but you did not wor's in the organs.

B. Then, according to what you think, I did not work anywhere.

Why:

Because you said that this ((other)) anketa, this paper ((is completed))

in civilian organizations by Konsomol members and Connunists.

A. Yes.

B. ... And even by sone non-Party members, those with higher education.

Then, in general, I did not work anywhere.

a. My question is • where were you:

B. Where was I?

That did I do?

A. 'That is uy question.

B. Honestly, I told you the first time that you have a great sense of

humor.

He have arrived at the point there I did not sork anywhere;

then,

where was I?

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1. Not there; you did not worl: there.

B. Yes, I did not worl anythere, not even in civilian jobs; comerc.

A. To sy thinina, It is possible: there are such things; perhaps you

did not work. even in a civilian job.

B. Hell, I Ically did not work anyhere i: civilian jobs.

A. Yes, there are some jobs in which a person nay be listed, but does

not nori:.

Do you understandi

B. That is a good job; he is listed, but does not work anywere.

A. Listed, but does not work.

B. That is good work; good pay; very good work.

A. Of course, the pay is always good; it is always good, by the way; and

it is not a bad life for the tine being; then, as they say, luck

changes.

B. I do not know what other document you have in mind; I do not remember.

1. Nell, we are now talling in general.

B. I have told you that I am trying to ....

((B moves forvard to desk, trying to read A's notes.))

A.

... I see that you are trying — to read my notes - but there is

nothing written here, except wat you have said.

I am not making any notes other than what you have sald.

B.

that, what ((As if he does not understand)):

A. I am saying, do not look here; if you wish, I will read it to you.

B. Well, I cannot see it.

Bven 11 you show it to me, I cannot see what is written there.

A. Is your eyesight poor?

B. Yes, yes.

A....

That happened?

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B. I had ((poor cycsight)).

I wore glasses at the theater, at tue uovies, for driving an autorobile;

I can read a docusent, but at this distance I cannot see.

Now, being here, 1 am ...

((XG; A and B spea:: at the saue tine.) )

A. Nell, I am not writing anything herc.

I an triting dom just what you say.

B. Excuse po; you have made a great nistale.

I did not for one part of a socond have the slightest thought of

reading or looking at what you have written down.

A. I do not have any secrets at all here; absolutely none at all.

B. No, no, no; I told you about my eyes.

A. Can you give me an example -- you worked there for 1l jcars of

reading the Personnel file of an employee who had been released, or of

employees vo became agents, or under sone other circuistances.

B. So, 50 ....

A. Did you ever road or see the Personnel file of an UVD employee?

B. Of course, I 100.:ed into them.

Sometines the enployees would brin; them.

Then I was vorking in later years in the Seventh Department, I

supervised three sections ....

For example, SUKHOTSKIY, fron the Hotels Section, cane

Or, for exanple, I selected a resident

For excuple, TOPESHKO, Iron the Fourteenth Departnent of the PGU.....

Hell, I wanted to put him in the "National" Hotel; and he really did

work there for a few monthe ....

Or, something else ....

.

Maybe the Personnel file, maybe the sumary (spravka) from the

Personnel file

'..•

A. You say the Personnel file and even wrote a sumnary....

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D. i did not vite it; an eaployce did.

A.: An esployee, but novertheless you saw the file.

Iven if jou did not irite it out yourscli, you could say ten times

nore about the Personnel file than wat you have said.

I an not as.ins you for a completely detailed description, but only

about those docents which you aust inow as an cuployce; not only

as a chiei oi section, but as any comon eployee - because without

a inorledge oi then, one cannot ror!:.

But you cannot explain the simplest things to ne; and I rcally

cannot bellove that you vere there and worked there.

B. I do not inor. I d0 not linor what lind of document you have in mind.

I say a Personnel file, and ....

A. Everyone has seen the document about which re spolie.

Your knowledge is so suall, so sligit, that the lovest agent of the

KGB, a sciot, knous nore then you know.

That is the question - because this poor selsot also fills in anictas.

B. For that

for whom

For Personnel files.

A. Nell, you tell se riy.

B. For the personal files of an agent.

A. You tell ne thy - because that poor seksot nots more about the KGB

or the IVD than you.

That is my question - were were you:

And what did you do:

You do not even know the ABC's.

B. I told you where I was and that I did.

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A. That is not an ansver - "I toid you, ' "I told you".

You have said nuch, but it does not fit.

((Pausc.)) Well, I will ilve you sund tise to thin about it.

We will take a brea: for lunch.

I hope that you will toll me sonething reasonable.

B. Besides what I have said, I cannot say anything nore which is

reasonable in reply to your questions -- not because I do not want

to, but because I do not know.

1. You cannot answer elenentary questions; how can I in more deeply

into tirose anetas, itc."

Fell, do not ret upset; have a good lunch;

((In English.)) Good appotite.

B. ((In English.)) Thank you very much.

You are so lind; thank you very much.

( (LUNCH BREAK))

A. ((In English.)) Pell, where are to now:

B. (2G) I thought, "Such questions!"

A man says fron the first day that he has come to belp clear up

things; you are not selping me to clear up things -- you are

dragging ne to the bottom.

Just the contrary.

"To clean up".

I was just thinking about what we just finished.

what other kind of documents can there be:

One must give a copy of the birth certificate, a copy of the diploma,

and a certificate (spravka) fron the place of residence.

A. Hell, that is right.

I do not deny it.

B. Well, what other kind of documents are there:

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A. These are general - cveryone presents then; not only on KGB, but

in so many other institutions.

B. Well, then ....

1. Well, I say, If ono has a fourth grade education, no one will ask

for his diploma.

B. Well, he will give proof if he finished high school.

Of course, if he only finished the courth grade he will not present

any documents.

They say that SHUBNYAKOY went through four grades caly.

A. Well, they say he is not a bad man.

B. And a clear head.

A. I do not deny it = what is true, is true.

When you came out of the lavy, that kind of a document did you have -

do you remenber?

B. I just had a leave docusent and my officer's identification; that

was all.

A. That did you do with the officer's identificationi

B. I turned it in; I gave it to SAKHAROV when I came on duty; they

kept it.

A. They kept it.

B. They did not return anything.

A. And the leave certificate - where did it go?

B. It did not go anywhere.

I probably destroyed it.

A. Nell, we have talised quite a bit about the unketa; let us talk

about still another question - as far as I know, before you weat on

duty in the organs of the WVD, you were narried?

3..... 4

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B. Right.

A. That infomation did you give - or mat did the D ast you -

about your fomer wife.

B. I trote about her; I listed her; I rote I had been married; I

save the information - surnare, first naue, patronyni. - about sy

wife; all information.

A. That discussion sas there on this subject - about your first wife -

in Personnel of the 'ID or with the thiefs of the Second Chief

Directorate:

B. There was none; there was absolutely none, with the chiefs.

Dut I told Personnel how it was -- that I had lived with her for a

short period of tine, that I lad been divorced irom her in 1952.

A. Was there anything in the anseta:

B. Do you have in mind rhether or not I had a certificate of divorce.

I did not have one, because it - the dissolution of the narriage -

was indicated by stamp in the officer's identification.

A. If it was stamped in your officer's identification ....

B. In the officer's identification, at the end.

A. But some one has to have the certificite of divorce.

B. She likely has it; I did not need it.

They stanped it innediately in ny officer's identification, and that

was enough.

A. Mere you yourself not interested in having evidence of the divorce?

On what basis did they record it in your officer's idencification:

On the basis of sone docuent ....

B. Nell, there was the decision of the City Court; furthermore, the

court itself sent notification to deduct alimony fron my pay.

I never received ay notification.

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A. You mean to say that you received nothing at all

D. Absolutely nothing.

It was staaped in my officer's identification, abot the

dissolution of the narriage.

A. ihere is the cortificate on the dissolution of the marriage itself.

Why did you not have it

B. It is not a certificate; it is a court judgement.

I did not have, and I did not need it.

It was enough for me to have the divorce recorded in my officer's

iJentification.

A. Anyone can write in his officer's Identification.

B. Fell, no; It is an official stamp; It is not written in by hand --

It Is a stanp, with a seal and a signature.

A. Who stamps the book.

B. The book was stamped by the ZAGS office, not by the court, but by

the ZAGS.

Fell, then I had sonething in hand.

You are right -- I submitted it, and they put in the stamp, in the

ZAGS office.

A. Nell, 11 ZAGS stamped it, on wat basis did they do so.

B. On the basis of a piece of paper, of course; they do not just

simply put it in.

A. This plece of paper, of course, has a name, does it not.

B. I do not reneuber.

A. "ell, 11 you got a divorce, you must know.,

B. But I do not remember (CHow vas 1t?!?)

A. Then, how was 1t?

Well, it was the judgement of the court,

the court judgement.

warmer te

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A. The judgenent of the court 1s one thin;

....

3. ... in extract tron the court judgement,

shich I gave to ZAGs, and

they put in the stamp.

That 1s all.

A. Vell, this still is not all.

B. On, jes, right, right; one ninute -- before they put in the stamp,

I had to pay.

Well, I paid the court fees.

A. That is not that I have in mind.

Then they gave you the extract from the court judgement, you went

to ZAGS; ZAGS Ilisely gave you a plece of paper, which has its

ow name.

B. They did not give me anything.

They stamped it -- that the marriage had been dissolved, and that

1s all; nothing more.

A. The stamp is put in by zAGs, not only on the basis of the court

judgement; ZAGS provides southing else also ....

B. ZAGS gives nothing.

A. Because the court decision still is not an official document.

B. The City Court decision is official; the extract has a seal.-

because the first court is a rayon court; it does not make a

decision = its task simply 'is reconciliation ....

A. Well, I am not talking about that.

3. ... And that is already an official decision.

A. But the decision of the court, even with the seal, has to be

presented to the ZAGS.

B. Right.

A. To receive

....

B.

So as to dissolve the marriage.

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They rcrister the dissolution of the narria?c.

A. Nell, II tie divorce rcally too!: place -- re will return to this

lator and tall: about it - there is a procedure: a cortificate 1s

issued on the dissolution of the aarriage.

B. No, no; no cortificate; there was none.

A. That do jou vant me to do - sion you a certificate-of the

dissolution of a narriage.

B. No, you do not have to.

A. If thoy sive it to cveryone, then my did they not live you one.

B. They did not give me any certificate on tie dissolution of the

marriage.

A. On the basis of the certificate, a notation can be made in the

passport or they can nate a notation in the officer's identification.

There is no other document wich is valid for this purpose.

B. You are confusing it with something else.

A. I am not confusing it with anything.

Ve are talking about a cortificate.

There is a certificate of birth, a certificate of death, and a

marriage certificate; and there is the certificate of the dissolution

of a narriage.

B. Well, then, she received this certificate of dissolution of the

marriage.

A. It is given to both, because both parties are equal.

8. I did not have one, and I did not present it anywhere.

I only dad the extract from the court decision.

((XG; A and B speak at the same tine. ))

A. Without that document, they annot put in the stamp; that is the

question.

-...

: e9.=f.

.....

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B. The stamp was put in on the lasis of the extract from the city

court; the stanp.

A. Hell, let us put this asiac.

The anicta requires you to list your forner wives or hushands,

asking for their surnanes, jirst unes, patrongaics, birth dates

and places, the address at the current time, and wether you maintain

contact.

What did you answer to this question when you were coning on duty.

That did you write about your first wife.

B. I can tell you that I remember.

"sly forner wife - ((B's surname.)), Agustina Sonstantinovna."

I indicated that she had not changed her name then I indicated

where she

lives.

I indicated that actually ve were separated in 1343, but legally we

Fere not divorced until 1952.

A. Well, did you tell the VD about her father:

B. I said that he was a member of the Military Council, with lUKOV,

Lt. Gen. TELEGIN... that in 1917 he was arrested ... for, as far

as I had heard, according to an'article of the Criminal Code, for

pillaging in Gernany, but, actually, he was arrested because of

his association with ZHUKOV, when they were working on ZHUKOV; that

is all.

A. And what do you think - what would the Personnel Department or the

chiefs of the Second Chief Directorate .. how would they look upon

the fact that you married and lived with your wife for a year while

her father was imprisoned - and then you left her ... how did the

HYD react to this fact — that the father of your first wife, a

member of the Military Councll, a big man,.

whon they knew in the

Central Comnittee and everywhere, and then he sas in jall... and

this was so from the day you cane on duty in the organs... and

nore - that you were paying alimony for child support - how did

the VD react to this?

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B. I do not !:now; I told them; I told this flist to the case officer,

and then I told it to the Personnel man, SAJOY; also, in

conversation, I told this to GUNMATiO, when ve becane acquainted -

I told his in detail; he could have inon tils cron my Personnel

file, but anyay he talied to me personally.

A. The second question -- when you vere completing the aniota, of couse,

you wote that your father was a Minister; how, then, did you answer

the question of the social origin of jour parents.

B. "Fron the vorking class."

A. That did you write about the social origin of your nother.

B. I wrote that she was fron the professional class (sluzhashchly).

A. But, actually, wuo was she:

B. ((Long pause.)) Hell, why did I write "professional class":

Because her father was an architect.

He was in the civilian field.

Ob, you have in mind the social origin.

"Nobility."

A. Well, you linow, there is a column in the anketa, and ...

B. I wrote, "fron the projessional class."

A. The social origins of your parents - what did they do before the

Revolution?

B. Father was from the working class;

before the Revolution, mother

was in the gimnazium.

A. And after the Revolution.

+*+5004-74 +20-F*

B. Likewise, after the Revolution she was studying, and then she

becane a housewife.

A. Hell, I an asking - there is a column ....

B. I indicated "from the professional class".

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1. Nell, we will say that the !ID ... well, maybe it mas carlier, in

the GaU ... they vere checin; and discovered that your nother's

social orlains fore with the nobility....

B. So ....

1. Iron the rell-to-do class.

B. Yes, when grandfather was divorced, so

... so.

A. What effect did this have on your auceptance for for!.

Did anyone tall: to you.

B. I do not now; no one aslicd me about it; I never nentioned that

grandfather was of the nobility.

Well, you sce….. even if they found out - and they llsely did

then father's position would have snoothed it over.

1. Well, what do you think.

Someone must have asked ... as you said your frandfather ras an

architect, vas arrested sonerdere, and vas in prison... well, as

you say, they nust have dug it up, and I thin! they dus this up, too.

B. But he ras rehabilitated before the death of STALlit, rehabilitated

before STALIN's death.

A. Well, we are talking about, as you said earlier ... he died in prison.

B. Yes, right.

A. What relation did this have, even if he had been rehabilitated -

you did not say earlier that he had been rehabilitated; this 1s the

first time I have heard this — what effect did this have on your

acceptance for mark!

B. Absolutely none, because there was absolutely no discussion on this

subject.

=7*9

I tell you, no one asked ne anything; I never was concerned with

this question, never.

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A. Dut, accordin: to lozie, as an caployce of counterintelli: enor -

even if your father occupied a nisa position -- do you not thin: it

would le interestin; for the iNi and countcrintolllionce and for

Personnel to find out about this and to spon: with you

B. üell, they did not spea: witi re.

of course, I taew.

I sat hin in no childhood, wien

I tas three or four yoars old; maybe

I waw hin several tines.

riell, he did not live with the fazily; he ras not living with the

fanily then I vas born; he vas not livin; with the family shen

nother was a girl.

A. Well, that is understood.

You said earlier that your nother received her education thanks only

to the grandiather because he mas carning good money.

B. No, I did not say it like that -- that she received her education ....

But what kind of education did she set.

She was studying in school, in the giananjui.

Then, she had just begun studying in a gianasium, and then the

Revolution began.

She mas only...

A. Well, you said more than that — you said that he even helped your

father at the same tine, when your father tas studying.

B. You did not understand ne, you did not understand ne.

I said - yes, grandfather helped his fanily, he helped his three

daughters;

that is, he gave noney to his former wife, and they were

studying and grew up, because of this.

A. Hell, if you say that the MVD or KGB dug this up, thei soneone must

have spoken to you.

Of course, having in mind that you were the son of a Minister, they

would not press too hard; they could ask, politely.

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B. Ha, a little

They really cicctiod!

A. licll, something ins evident to tie Gau, also, because the GaU also

checks through the Gn but no one cise.

B. Right.

A. There probably it also was ....

B. And there tas no discussio? with ne about this in GAU Personnel.

A. When you completed the anketa, you wroth that your nother came from —

instead of the nobility -- the professional class, and you sald nothing

about the arrest of your grandfather.

Probably you had to indicate or give sone explanation about them; and

the sane thing is true about your wile's father - not only about the

fact that he had been arrested, and that you were living with your

wife when he nas in prison: if one is to beliove your storeis, you

were present during the arrest...

B. During the search; at the time of the arrest te ms not in loscow;

he was on a hunting trip.

A. ... During the search of TELEGIN's apartnent.

It is very hard for me to baliove that no one talked to you on this

subject and that this did not affect you in any way when you came on

duty with the organs; we must keep la nind that this was still in

1953.

B. Well, just a minute.

This might have had some effect, and maybe this is why in January and,

February, they vere dragging it out -- they were checking on ne.

Haybe it did have sone effect - they had decided that there was

something in question.

But in March 1953, I do not know

STALIN had died, and SPBULOY, who reconnended ne, was in - maybe this

played a part;

I do not know.

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B. Ila, a llttlo

They really checked!

A. cll, sonething vas evldent to tie GaU, also, because the GRU also

checks throu,h the GB but no one cise.

B. Right.

A. There probably it also was ....

B. And there ras no discuss1o? with ne about this in GNU Personnel.

A. When you completed the anieta, you wrotr that your nother came from —

instead of the nobility -- the professional class, and you said nothing

about the arrest of your grandfather.

Probably you had to indicate or give sone esplanation about them; and

the same thing is true about your wife's father - not only about the

fact that he had been arrested, and that you were living with your

wife when he was in prison: if one 1s to believe your storels, you

were present during the arrest...

B. During the search; at the time of the arrest le was not in Moscow;

he vas on a hunting trip.

A. ... During the search of TELEGIN's apartent.

It is very hard for ne to believe that no one talied to you on this

subject and that this did not affect you in any way when you came on

duty with the organs; we must keep la nind that this was still in

1953.

B. Well, just a minute.

Inis might have had some effect, and maybe this is why in January and,

February, they vere dragging it out - they were checking on ne.

kaybe it did have sone effect - they had decided that there was

something in question.

But in March 1953, I do not know

STALIN had died, and IPBULOY, who recomnended me, was in - naybe this

played a part;

I do not know.

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But no one spose to me about ore of those questions, with the

exception of that about ny flie a tuey spoie to iss about that:

they spolie to se when I ..: baiors, during, and aiter ny processing

and when I had begun torting.

I talked about ny wife, listed her in the ancta, and spolie about father.

A. And mat did you anster to the question about that ind of relations

you maintained with her at the current tine, at the beginnin; of

1053.

B. That relations

I had absolutely no contact with her; I did not srite it, but I

said that I had seen her in 1052 then I case back, because I wanted

to see the girl; I bought sone rits, etc.

And then I say here in the rayon court and the city court; that was

all -- I never saw her after that.

I ansvered that "I have no contact with her."

Because the money, before that, mus sent to her -- I did not taie it

to her; it ins delivered to her by a driver.

After the divorce, the noney officially ins talion iron ay salary.

A. And when was the noney deducted fron your pay - then you began

working in VD:

B. Well, they began deducting the money fron the very beginning, because

the money was deducted fron my pay after the decision of the court in

1952.

A. Yes, but were was the executive order:

B. Nell, that was not given to me, but sas sent probably to the Xinistry

of the Navy or to the military unit where I served.

The money was deducted, and I did not even see the executive order.

A. When you began working in the IVD, what did they deduct for the first

or second nonth:

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ГРЕННИНА ФРИТКОРАРАЗВАННИО

B. liell, they dedusted ?5 percent.

e.:.2..1

A. ihat ras the sur of noney:

B. I do not remember; it vas 2i percent after tax.

A. Is it logical or not to make such a conclusion -- that a man steps into

a job of the nost inportant directorate of the security organs, in

counterintclligence, the Second Chici Directorate, wich works against

foreigners.

B. So.

A. He coues to the job and he has had no training whatsoever up to that

time with regard to counterintelligence work.

Earlier, he had not worked in the organs of the MiGB of the lVD.

In this year in which he enters, he will have passed his twenty sixth

birthday, and most ilkely he will be neither a Party or kousonol meaber.

His father holds a high position, but the MGD has sose lind of a dirty

file on him.

His nother is of noble origin; his grandfather died in prison as a

Trotskyite.

He was narried to the daughter of a general then in prison.

Well, tell me, as a counterintelligence officer - is it logical or not

to accept hin for wor: in counterintelligence'

Do you think SIUDNYAKOV or GRIBAVOY or the Deputy Minister or the

Chief uf Personnel Directorate - even if KOBULOV has recommended him

would raise a hand to sign papers accepting him for work.

B. I do not know wether this would raise a hand... or on what basis.

This man did not just come in off the street; he was already working

in the GRU.

On the basis that everything came from the top, that KOBULOV had made

a telephone call, that father occupled a certain position - that 1s

all.

frate

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A. nell, you now, if you worked in counterintellence, that for the

iGB 1t 1s of no significance that a nan has worked in the GRU or any-

where cise.

B. It is not as though they were taking a man just out of the institute,

but a man who already had been cheered; and the GRU checks through the

MGB -- you just spoise about that - through the iGB.

1. Sicll, if the GRU decided, "Thanks leavens! lie have gotten rid of hia:

Lord, lay hin to rest!" would the KGb pick hi: un.

I do not think that you would thin's so.

B. I do not think so.

A. Maybe you think, but....

B. I am telling you how it was.

A. But it is not enough that you say this is how it was.

It is not logical for it to have occurred as you say it did.

((Pausa)) I think that you should find a more logical ansver.

B. What more logical answer:

There probably were instructions through Personnel, or throug hom

KOBULOV worked.

In March, KOBULOV could have - if he were interested - had ((B's

surname)) processed or not; or he could have (2G) them and asked, "What

is the trouble. That is all".

And what could SHURVYAKOV, GRIBANOV and FEDOTOV say?

They would not stand there with open mouths.

A. If you worked there, you should know GRIBANOY, FEDOTOV and SHUBNYAKOY

better.

B. No; they are all educated, they are intelllgent people, they have great

experience, they are erudite.

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A. They are responsible for the intornal securlty of the country: all of

these people were confirmed by the Ce CPS; they re not put there by

a fool.

-...

B. Right.

((B's surnane)) too - pardon the expression - ms not a saall fry

(shuy sobachit), but a candidate seaber of the CC, a member of the

cabinet, a gerber of tie couneil of ilinisters; these are bis things....

A. But it nas not ((B's surnane)) rio ras going to work.

B. No, the father, the father; but that, that was sosething.

A. I do not deny that it was sonething, but you know the doors of the KGB

are not open to all; they are quite narrow.

B. I told you how the doors were opened and how I entered there.

A. Well, let's go on; we'll return to the anketa --

married for the second time.

when did you get

В. In 1953.

A. Then:

B. In June.

A. Do you remember the date.

B. Yes, the 27th of June.

A. Thy did not you answer at once, the 27tn of June 1953:

Why did you first answer just 1953:

B. Because you know this very well, and me have talked about this.

You are questioning me like a child.

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A. Because you do not answer in fill, and your answer is not satisfactory.

B. You are questionin: ne llie a small boy deliberately.

((XG; A and B speai: at the sane tine))

A. It certainly is not deliberate.

I am asking the simplest questions.

You do not even have to thin! about then.

If a man fere there, he would auster then without hesitation.

B. You know that that question already was discussed; but you still are

pressing.

A. In what manner and how did you inform your Chiefs and Personnel that

you had marrled.

B.

((Pause)) I rcuember that I requested official leave for three days

to get married.

I do not remenber the details -- wether I spoke about intering to get

married.

I. think that I spoke with GORBATENKO, said that I intended to get

married to so-and-so.

There was one thing I did...

That did I do:

I checked her, unoffivially - because this is not allowed.

Across the roon there was a fellow, the Deputy Chief of the First

Section, named KUDREY, Georgly Yakovlevich.

I told him that i want to get married, that I wanted to check her, that

there may be sone incrininating naterial against her.

-n. I requested a check on the wife, on her mother and father.

A. And what turned up:

B. Absolutely clear - according to the first Speclal Defartnent.

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A. You sere sure that she was absolutcl; elcar

B. Absolutely clear; I recelved it and destroyed it.

Certainly, I aust have said that I was preparind to narry; I Informed

tien officially.

I requested three days to ret married.

Then I renenber that I coupleted an ankieta again, because I had re-

married.

Yes, I completed an anketa again after I was married.

A. well, mat kind of anketa was it.

B. Well, the one me were speakins about, the usual anketa.

A. Here we are - completing this anketa for the third tiae.

In the beginning, you had conpleted two copies; then, still more.

Now you were getting married; now how many copies did you complete.

B. I do not reuember, I do not remember.

I know that I completed this anlicta; I did not write an autoblography.

And, in this ankota, I indicated that I had been married and gave the

name of the first wife.

I listed the wife, her mother, her father, her, brother, her sister;

that is all.

A. Then, in the new anketa, in answer to the questions about your family

status, you answered that you had been narried.

B. Married.

A.

And you answered everything that was asked about your wife:

B. Yes, yes.

A. How did you answer the question about the wife's relatives who had

lived, or vere Ilving at present, abroad:

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-

B. I ansicred that there was no one rio had lived or was living at the

present tize ((abroad)); altiour a distant relative - that 1s, the

nother's brother = ras in dustria at the tine; I do not renember his

A. Fell, that did you answer to the question of who anong you and your

wiic's relatives had been or tas at that tine abroad, mere they were,

when, and who sent then.

What tas your answer.

{

B. Absolutely no one tas abroad it that time, and no one had been sent

anywhere.

A. But the question reads, "fio has becn or is presently abroad "

B.

"No one is", "no one is".

A. And who had been abroad.

B. There were... they had been abroad, in france.

A. Fell, how did you answer this question.

B. Tell, the wife told me; I probably trote, but I did not mrite who

had sent then.

I vrote that... I do not remember; I must have indicated.... I asked

my wife... that they had been in France, when he worked at a netallur

gical plant in France.

A. Well, did you think it was logical when you told me that you yourself

had checked on your wife, that an answer had come from the first

Special Department.

B. A clean one, absolutely.

i. Could it have been written that "she has been abroad, in France - see

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calt file such and such"....

B. No; there tas absolutely nothing, absolutely nothin

A. No exlt lile

• B. I do not inow, I do not now if there were cult files in 1335.

A. There vere (crit files)) even in 1013, for jour infornation.

B. I tell you that it ras an absolute?.

•Ican

cincck: the choci: came fros

the Archives on the nother, father, rife.

A. Tell, what do you think, as a counterintelligence öfficer - was It f

logical that there was no infornation that they had been abroad

No matter wuother or not they did anything bad, account is taken of

all people to have bech or are abroad; all the infornation is there.

B. There was no infornation there.

:

A. There is exit information on all people; there is a card for everyone;

all the inforsation is there.

If you yourself nade the choci, you should have obtained this information

B. I myself made the check, and I myself received these answers.

A. Well, why did not you get the information that they had been abroad.

((XG; 'A and B speak at the same time))

((Pause)) Mell, what to you think:

What kind of effect would this have on you, when added to what I told

you earlier - about you personally, about your father, about your

mother, about your grandfather; further, about the narriage to TELEGIRA;

then, after your marrlage - It was at that time - Bozdan ((KOBULOV))

was arrested; after that, it was explained that you had married a

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person hose parents - altiourh she lan an infant - ad beca in

France.

That to you thin';

Again -- rould not it be lolenl for son of the cuployces of taù or

the Second Calci Dircctoratc - now chiefs had cous in -- to look into

your case:

B. They 1o0icủ through my file; then, again, my tilfe's father also vas a

responsible sorcer in the Couneil of linistors at that time.

A. You know that nany responsible vortors of the Council of linisters, and

as you sald, your father vas a big man - but there vere files on many

of then; although it did not affect all oi then, it had a big affect

on sone of then.

What do you think.

Do you thinks anyone ronarked that chey should continue to icep such a

man as an exployee in the organs, or should say goodbye to his

That is your vicwpoint, as a countcrintellicence officer tho worsed

In the American Departnent of the Second Chief Directorate.

B. First, there was no conpromising material on the KOZHEVNIKOVs although

they had been abroad.

A. Well, 1l we go further we will find something else

There are questions about who among the relatives of your wife, your

parents and your relatives have lived in Gerran occupied territory.

B. Right; I did not indicate there that the grandmother on my mother's

side and her sister had lived there; I did not indicate this.

Why's

Because the anketa asked only about your closest relatives.

Whom do they mean by "closest relatives". - Father, nother, brothei,

sister.

Then, on the wife's side - her father, nother, brother, sister.

These are the closest relatives.

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A. "ell, jes; but every anicta has the question -= do you rish to add

sorethin& about your rclailves.

B. But I did not wish to add anythin!.

A. Furthermore, there is a supplenentary list of relatives witi lton you

are in contact, with mion your family has contact.

For instance, if ve say, as a counterintellirence officer... or the

Search Dircctorate or Personnel looks at It this way -- here, ((3's

surname)) as born in Nikolayev.

After the war and later, the files on all win were born and lived in

that territory fere reviewed to find out who arong their ((KGB enployces:

relatives had lived in occupied icrritory, although perhaps the

employee himself did not know about this, because many of them ((had no".

coutacts with such relatives))....

B. Well, all of this is in the special check ((file)); that 1s right,

absolutely right.

A. I think that even if you did not trite that your grandmother had been in

occupied territory, they would isnow about it.

B. Right, right.

..

A. Hell, If te add to this that, soon after this... vell, your misconduct

in the MVD - naking use of operational documents, and you fell ill with

a venercal disease...:

Besides that, soon afterward, you got out of the Konsonol.

Explain to me what reason there was for keeping you there.

B. I do not know what kind of reason!

Maybe 1t was because I, as a case officer, was like a bump on a log, an

ordinary one who did not shine in any way and who....

A. So much the more so, if he did not shine there - way keep hlu:

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B. Well, maybe only because; rell... why fire such a suy, ilre lin for

what

Very well, the; could have fired me fur that misconduct, but llls was

the decision of SUMMAROV and FEDoToV.

A. It was not necessary to fire jou, but siaply to trito, "It is not

considered corthratle to keep ((3's surnano)) in the cigans of the :ND."

B. Right, but it depends, you see, upon more it comes fros

This usually happens if the chief of a section does not lilie the opera-

tional vor:er.

of course, they could get rid of you, but I do not know thy they did

not.

Are you as!;ing ne for SHUBNYANOV'S or FEDOTOV's opinion

A. I do not want this; I certainly am not asking you this — perhaps you

do not krow this.

I simply as saying that, as a counterintelligence officer....

B. (1G) I do not know why it ras so; I slaply am telling how it was.

A. ... You nust know all of these sharp angles.

B. I understand, I understand.

A. Well, you understand, if you worked in the American Departent; I think

you would have been interested if son. Soviet citizen had met a foreigner

well, maybe he just got a ligut, maybe he did not do anything wrong.

B. Right, right, well, this (person)) can be developed for a long time.

A. But he is not developed without reason.

B. Absolutely - perhaps two or turee years.

A. Tell, this — as they say — receives attention.

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B.

fell, what --did ((D's sirnanc)) have contact with coral: nors

Uid his father or nother have contact with foreigners

1. I an saying this as an exaaple; I aa saying the folloving - if te

have in mind that....

Loo!:, a man arrives and soes to vor: in the IVD; his nother's origin

Is of the nobility; his srandfather died in prison; his father, althou;i

he ins a linister, -- you now non; "inisters vere CC and POLITBYURO

neabers and that they were imprisoned at one time....

B. Oh, yes.

((XG; A and B speak at the sane tine))

A. God sailed on BERIYA, too, but then they threw him in prison.

B. And BULGAVIN.

A. ...But there is a file on his ((D's father)), too; he hinself ((B)) vas

parried to the daughter of a general who now is in prison; he vas

reconnended for nork by JOBULOV, who - along with BaRIYA -- was arrestee

as a traitor and ar enem; of the people; furthernore, at the tine, he 1s

married to the daughter of a responsible worker who has lived in Prance

there is nothing incrininating in this, but a fact is a fact; he has

left the Komsonol because of age; he was arrested for 15 days for

misuse of operational docusents, and he has been 111 with a veneral

disease - is this a good nan for counterintelligence. work in the Center

in Moscow:

Mell, explain this to ne, fron the point of view of a counterintelligence

officer.

B.

Oh, I am not deciding... uty should I decide a question about myself

in 1954!

But I can tell you only one detail - you are forgetting sonethlag a

Iittle bit: the situation, which alsays plays a part.

1953 vas one thing; 1951 vas quite dilferent.

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A complete rehabilliation sas :o10; on.

There vas a cospletely difierent approach and a dificrent vay of

100: 1n. at many things; do not discount this.

A. liothiais so spectacular had happened as jet in 1951.

B. No -- how so.

There was already a new, a fresh breoze....

A. ...I have in nird, if this.... then you have to aud tie following --

that there was a great cut-bac: and release, and the asceptance of

Party and Fonsonol nembers ((in place of forner employees)) .

You specifically vere a prine candidate in the category of those to

whon they mould say food-bye.

((XG; A and B speak at the sine tic))

3. But here, they probably too!: Into account... richt; I understaad...

I can say one thing - about my lather's position; second, "the fellow

has a higher education, knows a language" -- in 1953 and 1951, only 25

to 30 percent in the Second Chief Directorate had a higher education;

there were only 10 to 15 percent tho had other languages -- this could

have a certain significance.

A. Just a minute; of course, we have not sposen about education yet --

because you lisely remember very well that you have told about your

education several times, and you have told different stories.

And there

is a big question about wether you have had the education

you clained....

((End of Reel #4))

... 4.

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