Joint Committee on Police Oversight — Burlington, VT
Date: 2023-07-06
Time: 17:30

Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting -
 Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM

Further materials and tentative schedule available here:
https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/CityCouncil/Ordinance-and-Charter-Change-Joint-Committee-on-Police-
Oversight

When: Jul 6, 2023 05:30 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
Topic: Joint Committee Meeting on Police Oversight

Please click the link below to join the webinar:
https://zoom.us/j/96711496390
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Webinar ID: 967 1149 6390
  International numbers available: https://zoom.us/u/acCWVZZ4ST




1. Agenda
Subject 1.1. Motion to amend/adopt agenda
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM


Category 1. Agenda

Department Council and Board
Type

Recommended Action

2. Adopt the Draft Minutes from May 30, 2023
Subject 2.1. Adopt the Draft Minutes from May 30, 2023
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM


Category 2. Adopt the Draft Minutes from May 30, 2023

Department Council and Board


Type

Recommended Action

3. Public Forum
Subject 3.1. Verbal Comments
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM
Category 3. Public Forum
Department Council and Board


Type

4. Update from the Police Commission and Discussion
Subject 4.1. Update from the Police Commission and Discussion
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM


Category 4. Update from the Police Commission and Discussion

Department Council and Board


Type

Recommended Action

5. Adjournment
Subject 5.1. Motion to adjourn
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM


Category 5. Adjournment

Department Council and Board
Type

Recommended Action

Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting -
 Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM

Further materials and tentative schedule available here:
https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/CityCouncil/Ordinance-and-Charter-Change-Joint-Committee-on-Police-
Oversight

When: Jul 6, 2023 05:30 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
Topic: Joint Committee Meeting on Police Oversight

Please click the link below to join the webinar:
https://zoom.us/j/96711496390
Or One tap mobile :
  +13092053325,,96711496390# US
  +13126266799,,96711496390# US (Chicago)
Or Telephone:
  Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
  +1 309 205 3325 US
  +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)
  +1 646 931 3860 US
  +1 929 205 6099 US (New York)
  +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
  +1 305 224 1968 US
  +1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
  +1 689 278 1000 US
  +1 719 359 4580 US
  +1 253 205 0468 US
  +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
  +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
  +1 360 209 5623 US
  +1 386 347 5053 US
  +1 507 473 4847 US
  +1 564 217 2000 US
  +1 669 444 9171 US
Webinar ID: 967 1149 6390
  International numbers available: https://zoom.us/u/acCWVZZ4ST




1. Agenda
Subject 1.1. Motion to amend/adopt agenda
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM


Category 1. Agenda

Department Council and Board



 Page 1 of 6
Type

Recommended Action

2. Adopt the Draft Minutes from May 30, 2023
Subject 2.1. Adopt the Draft Minutes from May 30, 2023
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM


Category 2. Adopt the Draft Minutes from May 30, 2023

Department Council and Board


Type

Recommended Action

3. Public Forum
Subject 3.1. Verbal Comments
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM
Category 3. Public Forum
Department Council and Board


Type

4. Update from the Police Commission and Discussion
Subject 4.1. Update from the Police Commission and Discussion
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM


Category 4. Update from the Police Commission and Discussion

Department Council and Board


Type

Recommended Action

5. Adjournment
Subject 5.1. Motion to adjourn
Meeting July 6, 2023 - Ordinance and Charter Change Joint Committee on Police Oversight Meeting
 - Thursday, July 6, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bushor Conference Room 1st Floor, City Hall OR
 REMOTELY via ZOOM


Category 5. Adjournment

Department Council and Board



 Page 2 of 6
Type

Recommended Action




 Page 3 of 6
 ORDINANCE and CHARTER CHANGE JOINT COMMITTEE
 Tuesday, May 30, 2023
 Public Works Conference Room and Remote via Zoom
 DRAFT MINUTES
Members Present: Councilor Traverse (Ordinance Committee Chair), Gene Bergman (Charter
Change Committee Chair), Councilor Hightower, Councilor Carpenter, Councilor Doherty,
Councilor Shannon
Staff Present: Kim Sturtevant (Acting City Attorney), Jon Murad (Acting Chief of Police), Jordan
Redell (Mayor’s Chief of Staff)
Others in Attendance: Councilor Grant, FaRied Munarsyah, Lee Morrigan, Amy Malinowski,
Dave Maher, Jake Schumann
Meeting called to order at 6:34 PM.
1.0 Agenda
Motion to adopt/amend agenda
Motion to Adopt Agenda as amended to include public forum with each agenda item.
Motion by Councilor Traverse, Seconded by Councilor Carpenter
Final Resolution: Motion Passes
Yes: Unanimous

2.0 Adopt the Draft Minutes from May 23, 2023
Motion to Adopt Minutes as is.
Motion by Councilor Traverse, Seconded by Councilor Carpenter
Final Resolution: Motion Passes
Yes: Unanimous

3.0 Public Forum
Amy Malinowski: I live in Ward One. I am involved with the People for Police Accountability. I
don’t believe the public input has been rigorous thus far. Meetings have been in conflict with an
NPA meeting on public safety and a Police Commission meeting. These meetings have not been
posted on Front Porch Forum. I hope we can get meetings scheduled further in advance and we
can have a clear timeline on when there will be products for the public to react to.
Dave Maher: I live in Ward Four. I have reviewed the past proposals for police oversight. I feel
the Police Commission should be the core of the oversight system. The Mayor, Police Chief, and
the HR Director should all be involved as well. I did not like that the some of the past proposals
gave preference to people with a criminal history for selection on an oversight body. We want this
group to work with the police department and promote public safety.
FaRied Munarsyah: I live in Ward Five. Under the current disciplinary process, how many times
have officers appealed a disciplinary action to the Police Commission? Also, how many cases

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have there been that have gone to arbitration? I also want to speak in support of a charter change
to make the disciplinary system of the police department work more like the fire department.
4.0 Update from the Police Commission and Discussion, with Additional Public Forum
Police Commissioner Stephanie Seguino presented a report to the Joint Committee. This report
is available under Agenda Item 4.1 of the May 30th Committee meeting and is in the agenda packet.
Shannon: A staff monitor for the Police Commission would bring a certain professionalism to the
work. However, we have about 26 sworn officers on patrol and you are asking for significant
resources for this task. Wouldn’t it be better to have a state or regional monitor that could be even
more objective? What is the advantage of doing this work at the local level?
Commissioner Seguino: Burlington receives about 50 complaints a year. That is similar to
Boulder, Colorado. They have a full-time monitor. This monitor is not just responsible for
monitoring the current patrol officers, but also the chiefs, CSOs, and everyone else. If we look at
cities like Tucson, Burlington pays less per capita on police monitoring. The City also faces
potential lawsuits over police conduct. In short, other cities pay more per capita for police
monitoring than we do currently.
Carpenter: What type of background would such a monitor have?
Commissioner Seguino: Someone familiar with investigations, but not necessarily a lawyer.
Traverse: The City Charter and the ordinances are currently pretty vague on the responsibilities of
the Police Commission. Can you elaborate more on the role or responsibilities of the Commission?
Commissioner Seguino: The complaint policy of 2020 defines our role on complaints. The
department itself would work on policies and have the Commission approve those revisions. There
are parts of our work that are memorialized in policies, but other parts of our work is not explicit
and really should be made explicit in writing.
Traverse: What are your thoughts on the current size of the Commission? There was a discussion
on splitting up the Commission to tackle both investigations and as an appellate body, do you have
thoughts on that? Do you see the Commission would handle policy and investigations while
having a separate body handle grievances? The complaint process currently focuses on external
complaints, do you have thoughts on how internal complaints would be handled?
Commissioner Seguino: I think seven is a fine size, but others may have different opinions. I don’t
think we should split the Commission since grievances are rare. We have not dealt much with
internal complaints, but the general sense is that we should hear internal complaints. Since I have
been on the Commission we have not received an internal complaint.
Acting Chief of Police Murad: The Commission reviews all complaints, internal or external.
Bergman: I have concerns about conflicts for the Commission if the Commission is involved in
both investigations and appeals over discipline. I am curious to see what recommendations that
could come from both charter change and ordinance perspectives.
Carpenter: I think a lot more work can be done within the ordinances rather than the charter. I also
want to understand the State Police’s process for this.


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5.0 Discussion of Next Steps
Joint Committee meetings are scheduled for July 6th, July 13th, and August 2nd.

6.0 Adjournment
Motion to Adjourn.
Motion by Councilor Shannon, Seconded by Councilor Traverse.
Final Resolution: Motion Passes
Yes: Unanimous

The meeting was adjourned at 8:30 PM.




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ORDINANCE and CHARTER CHANGE JOINT COMMITTEE
 Thursday, July 6, 2023
 Bushor Conference Room and Remote via Zoom
 DRAFT MINUTES
Members Present: Councilor Traverse (Ordinance Committee Chair), Gene Bergman (Charter
Change Committee Chair), Councilor Carpenter, Councilor Doherty, Councilor Shannon,
Councilor Hightower
Staff Present: Kim Sturtevant (Acting City Attorney), Jordan Redell (Mayor’s Chief of Staff)
Others in Attendance: Councilor Grant, Mary Cox (Police Commissioner), Shakuntala Rao
(Police Commissioner) Jake Schumann, Samantha, Mike Hoey, Amy Malinowski,
Meeting called to order at 5:40 PM.
1.0 Agenda
Motion to adopt/amend agenda
Motion to Adopt Agenda as is.
Motion by Councilor Carpenter, Seconded by Councilor Doherty
Final Resolution: Motion Passes
Yes: Unanimous

2.0 Adopt the Draft Minutes from May 30, 2023
Motion to Adopt Minutes as is.
Motion by Councilor Bergman, Seconded by Councilor Carpenter
Final Resolution: Motion Passes
Yes: Unanimous

3.0 Public Forum
Amy Malinowski: I am looking forward to reading the draft language coming from this committee.
4.0 Update from the Police Commission and Discussion
Commissioner Cox: The Police Commission is intending to vote on a memo to send to this
Committee. This document was written by Commissioner Seguino.
Melo Grant: The document contains feedback from previous commissioners and has been worked
on for some time.
Shannon: Did the Commission vote on the report that this Committee already received?
Melo Grant: There was a lot of discussion amongst the commissioners in creating the document,
but there has been a lot of change and turnover recently.
Traverse: We have a number of documents available online that speak to that work. It sounds like
this next memo will be a summation of all that work.

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Bergman: I have put together a preliminary set of questions that I intended to share with Councilor
Traverse. I took many of Councilor Hightower’s questions and examined them with the documents
we have available to the Committee. One of my preliminary questions is: Do we as a Committee
focus on one or both types of oversight? One type is investigatory/disciplinary and the other is
auditing/monitoring. It makes a big difference if we are trying to address both types.
 Carpenter: We still have to develop the body or mechanism that will conduct the investigatory
side. In addition, we should discuss the larger trends and operations rather than the individual
incidences. There are some impediments to these questions, such as the Chief’s authority in the
charter. The most discussion has been around the investigatory aspect.
Bergman: That raises the other question: Where do want to vest these powers? A single public
body could have the power to do both of these aspects. Depending on the structure, I think a single
body could do it, but that could be extensive work and there could be some conflicts of interest.
Shannon: I do not have a predetermined preference on this. I know previous City Attorney
Blackwood did a lot of work on this a few years ago and we should look back on that and update
it. We must also include the police department in this discussion. Officers aren’t going to be
coming to these meetings, but we should be sharing information with the Chief and the head of the
police union.
Traverse: We have included them in our warned meeting list and as of yet there hasn’t been any
police union input. I do think we should find alternative methods to include their input.
Melo Grant: We need to remember that we are trying to keep residents safe. Unfortunately, in
some sections of our community there is limited trust in the police and it has to be earned. Officers
already have some protections built into the collective bargaining agreement with the police union.
We must balance supporting our officers with protecting our residents.
Hightower: I am afraid we are rehashing the same discussions we have already have. We need to
start getting pen to paper.
Carpenter: In 2020, we went at this issue thinking that the Police Commission would have the
responsibility in the reforms. I believe the discipline issue has been the most contentious and needs
the most work. This Committee can only address ordinances or charter issues, and we can’t deal
with the relationship aspects now.
Commissioner Cox: We have looked at systems in other cities that are much bigger than Burlington
and I would like to see any reports that compare us to similarly-sized cities.
Bergman: NACOLE suggests that cities should examine what is best for themselves and best fit
for the issues in the area. Is this investigatory body a primary finder of facts or is it an appeals
body? We need to get police union folks, ballot proposition folks, and others to decide on these
decision points.
Hightower: Part of the reason why I wanted to hear from HR Director Durfee is that I think we
could have the HR Committee be the appeals body instead of the Police Commission. That would
free up the Police Commission to do other work without conflict.
Traverse: There are three parts of the complaint process: the investigation, the discipline, and the
appeal. We need to decide on who or which body is going to address each of these parts. Currently,

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the discipline is handled entirely by the Chief. There is also the question of if an appeal should
first go to the HR Committee.
Bergman: Yes, and there are other aspects that inform those parts, such as access to information.
There is also the question whether the body should only be addressing citizen or internal
complaints. Should they be addressing all use of force or discharge or a firearm? There are also
questions on qualifications for members of the body, on staffing, on independence and powers.
Mary Cox: I am wondering if anyone has spoken with the state Department of Public Safety?
Carpenter: No, we have no spoken with them. There is a state oversight body and we should reach
out to them.
Melo Grant: There is a lot of talk about discipline, but I feel that is not the main focus of the work
of the Commission. We saw only maybe two appeals. The bulk of the work relies on documents
that come directly from the department.
Traverse: I think it would make sense to follow the process laid out in the investigation process.
Carpenter: Looking at the memo from Commissioner Seguino, many of the issues are not
ordinance or charter issues. Things like the lack of resources or viewing officer training are not
really in our purview and should probably be separated out.
Bergman: I respectfully disagree. All of those things could be framed in ordinance.
Carpenter: Let me rephrase that. Are these issues, such as lack of resources for data analysis,
something that should be done in ordinance or something that Councilors should advocate for in
the budget?
Doherty: I think starting with the complaint flowchart makes a lot of sense to begin with. First,
the issue of discipline rests only with the Chief and we need to address if we want to change that.
The Chief also has an investigatory role and we may want to change that as well.
Traverse: Even before those two steps, we have the question of how the initial complaint is
addressed. The Police Commission receives a copy of the complaint immediately and it sounds
like that is working.
Commissioner Rao: We do review the use-of-force videos as well as the complaints. We have a
good system of dividing up the videos between the Commissioners then they can bring concerns
forward if there are any.
Commissioner Cox: Yes, our system of video review has worked well. I will say, we also see
some good conduct and organization in these videos. We have also seen videos of great conduct
by members of the public.
Carpenter: It’s great that it is working. But that process is through an Executive Order and we
should codify that in ordinance so it is more permanent.
Commissioner Rao: BPD does the investigation and fact-finding and we review after that. We do
not have the capacity or time to investigate ourselves. We have agreed with the findings of the
department in some instances and disagreed in others. We ultimately cannot investigate and fact-



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find like the department does. We do have some options to do research or engage with researchers
or other professionals.
Commissioner Cox: I will add that some complaints come in from individuals that are clearly in
some kind of mental health situation. I think rather than just label the complaint as unfounded, we
really should be doing more to have the department collaborate and provide supports for those
people even if the complaint is not founded.
Doherty: What would having another separate body, an investigatory body, look like? Would it
be professional City employees that can properly investigate? Or would the department still do
the investigation, but under the eye of an outside body?
Jordan Redell: The Mayor’s Office supports having the Police Commission be able to hire an
outside investigator to investigate if they feel there is serious misconduct. Most investigations
would still be handled by the department, but the Commission would have that extra power if they
chose to use it.
Bergman: That is great. All of this discussion is pre-due process. The hearing and appeals process
will occur after and we need to think through that. The current system keeps both investigations
and discipline within the department, but we would be altering how that would work. I support
changing the current system, but we do need to think through the whole process.
Hightower: I don’t think this is going to be a new department for investigations given the small
number of complaints that have discrepancies between the department and the complainant. I
would suggest having an investigator on retainer for the Commission so they have them when they
need it. I don’t know how specific our language has to be.
Commissioner Rao: We do request 911 recordings and body-worn camera footage, so we do some
investigations. I would like more information on what the Mayor is thinking on hiring an
investigator for the Commission.
Jordan Redell: I can send the language that the Mayor is proposing. In short, he suggests that the
Commission can hire or retain an investigator by an affirmative vote and have the work product
reviewed by the City Attorney’s Office.
5.0 Discussion of Next Steps
The Joint Committee will meet Thursday, July 13.

6.0 Adjournment
Motion to Adjourn.
Motion by Councilor Bergman, Seconded by Councilor Carpenter.
Final Resolution: Motion Passes
Yes: Unanimous

The meeting was adjourned at 7:51 PM.




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