Advisory — Green Bay, WI
Date: 2010-06-17
Time: 17:00

MINUTES
 ADVISORY COMMITTEE
 Thursday, June 17, 2010
 City Hall, Room 604
 6:00 p.m.
Members Present: Council President Tom DeWane, Council Vice-President Amy
Kocha, Ald. Chris Wery, Ald. Steve Deneys, Ald. Jerry Wiezbiskie, Ald. Tony
Theisen

Others Present: Mayor Jim Schmitt, City Clerk Chad Weininger, Public Works
Director Ed Weisner

1. Call to order.
The meeting was called to order at 6:00 pm by Chairman, Ald. Tom DeWane.
Attendance was taken as noted above.

2. Approval of the agenda.
Motion made by Ald. Theisen, second by Ald. Deneys to approve the agenda.
Motion carried.

3. Approval of the minutes of the February 24, 2010 Advisory Committee
 meeting.
Motion made by Ald. Wery, second by Ald. Weizbiskie to approve the minutes of
the February 24, 2010 meeting of the Advisory Committee, as submitted. Motion
carried.

4. Request by Ald. Kocha to address the appropriateness of questioning
 constituents’ attorneys at meetings, regarding advice given to their
 clients.
Motion was made by Ald. Deneys to discuss item after Ald. Kocha had arrived.
Second by Ald. Wiezbiskie.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

5. Request by former Ald. Vander Leest to review the creation of a Budget
 Task Force Advisory Committee (BTFAC).
Alderman DeWane explained that as former Alderman Vander Leest is not
present for the meeting we do not know his intentions with this item.

Ald. Wiezbiskie motioned to receive and place on file. Seconded by Ald. Kocha

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

6. Request by Ald. Kocha to address the appropriateness of questioning
 constituents’ attorneys at meetings, regarding advice given to their
 clients.
Alderperson Amy Kocha stated that earlier this spring she overheard a Council
Member asking an attorney about information the attorney had provided his
client. Ald. Kocha was concerned the council member was really asking for
information that was protected under the attorney client privilege. Ald. Kocha
wanted to bring this item forward to clarify that talking to a constituent is different
than talking to their attorneys. Ald. Kocha continued to say council members
need to be careful in their wording when asking for information from an attorney
or ask if the attorney feels they can tell the Council something other than
demanding the information.

Ald. DeWane suggested this item be received and placed on file. Ald. DeWane
also suggested Ald. Kocha pull this item at the next Council meeting so this
advice can be given to the full Council.

Motion by Ald. Kocha to receive and place on file. Seconded by Ald. Wiezbiskie.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

7. Request by Ald. Kocha to discuss and take action on the City’s near and
 long term plans for Renard Island, active or passive use included, and at
 what cost to the City.
Ald. Kocha explained at Council there was a lengthy discussion regarding
Renard Island and it was recommended this item come to Advisory. She also
said the City has never really taken a position on what they wanted to see
happen on Renard Island. She continued saying she was aware Brown County
owns the island and that money is a big issue. Ald. Kocha stated she was
concerned when the law changed to require the clay cap for maximum protection
to keep the pollution from our river, this island was grandfathered in and
decisions were made not to spend the money on the clay cap. She continued by
saying the City and the County should join forces in figuring out a long term
financial plan to make the clay cap feasible.

Ald. DeWane said he was pleased it was pointed out the County owns the island.
He continued by saying this issue has gone back years and years and Ald.
Theisen can account to that. Ald. DeWane explained the only thing they can do
is to try and set up a committee or a conference with Brown County to try and
discuss the island because regardless of what Advisory and City Council come
up with they will need Brown County approval.

Ald. Theisen suggested unless someone would make a motion to purchase the
island, they would need to work through the County. He continued by saying
because all the City Alderman are citizens of Brown County they can contact
their County Supervisors and request an item receive further consideration. He
stated as a City Council member he does not want the City to purchase the
island. He said as a member of the County Board he is interested in making sure
the island is not developed in a way that precludes future use.

Ald. Kocha agreed the island should not be closed in a manner that precludes
future use. She continued by saying she was concerned if there was no clay cap
who would want to go out to the island that was closed below the current
standard for closing the island, which is a clay cap. She also said it is hard to
determine if there will be an active or passive use of the island until it is
determined if there will be a clay cap or not. She stated she does not believe the
City should have to offer to purchase the property to have a say in whether or not
a clay cap is implemented and there must be some way for the City and County
to work together.

Ald. Wiezbiskie said when they set the meeting they were hoping they could
come back with some ideas for use. He continued by saying no matter what are
done with the figures they can all be adjusted. He pointed out a couple of
estimates of $3.340 million and $2.105 million and also said he meet with Dean
Haen from the Port Authority and got the projection down to a bit more than $1
million. He said the main goal is proper closure. He stated the main problem
right now is no one wants to spend any money on the island. He suggested the
City and County join together similar to what is done at Triangle Hill.

Ald. Theisen explained Triangle Hill is owned by the County and years ago an
agreement was reached that the City would run a sledding and skiing hill and
also staff it and then the County would put forward some money. In regards to a
new committee, Ald. Theisen said the system is already there; you call your
County Supervisor and say you would like an agenda item on Planning,
Development and Transportation. Ald. Theisen stated the County has not been
convinced by the County experts that a clay cap is necessary for future use and
suggested if the County hears from its experts a clay cap is necessary, that
would be a good starting point.

Ald. Wiezbiskie asked Ald. Theisen how they would go about getting funding for
a cap. Ald. Theisen responded it would be up to the County Committee to come
up with financial solutions such as a possible bond. Ald. DeWane said a bond
would not pass the County.

Ald. Kocha said the bay is a living organism not a concrete street so a person
should fight this as far as it can be taken.

A motion was made to open the floor for discussion by Ald. Deneys. Seconded
by Ald. Wiezbiskie.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

Bill Acker, 3217 Nicolet Dr.

Mr. Acker said he has put together a number of cost estimates. He said he does
not feel a clay cap is needed, however the public will not feel safe on the island
without a cap and there is a benefit to a clay cap. Mr. Acker gave a handout on
the City of Green Bay’s estimate. See attached document #1. Mr. Acker said it
is questionable to the amount of clay used in the City’s estimate. Mr. Acker also
handed out a document on data given to City Council from Ed Wiesner at the last
Council meeting. See attached document #2. Mr. Acker said his only concern
with the number was the different calculations for cubic yards of 145,200 versus
178,000. He said he believes it should be 145,200 cubic yards and it was
probably a County mistake when they put the first estimate together of 178,000
cubic yards. Mr. Acker continued by saying his other concern was the amount of
top soil and 1/2 foot would not be sufficient and thus raise the estimate. Mr.
Acker handed out another design for the cap. See attached document #3. He
pointed out the difference with his design is that the top soil would be from harbor
dredging. He said this design minus the clay cap is what the County is currently
proposing. What makes this design attractive to the City is the City only
purchasing the clay cap.

Mr. Acker handed out another document showing his calculations for his
estimate. See attached document #4. He also handed out a document showing
how he came to his calculation of 45 acres being covered with clay. See
attached document #5. Mr. Acker clarified the number he received from Public
Works Director Ed Wiesner were not Ed’s numbers but numbers Ed had received
from a contractor. According to Mr. Acker’s numbers the cost for the project
could be $951,125 or less if the cubic yards covered decreases. Mr. Acker said
through his discussion with the Army Corps of Engineers in Detroit he was told
the Army Corps does not believe a clay cap is necessary. Ald. Theisen asked
Mr. Acker how much the County would be liable for on Mr. Acker’s proposal. Mr.
Acker responded nothing, unless the costs were shared with the City. Ald.
Theisen responded he does not see the City putting forward a substantial
amount of money on this project. Mr. Acker said there might be opportunities for
grants and that Congressman Kagen’s office has offered to help locate funds.
Mr. Acker said it was to his understanding this project was going to be a co-
ownership between the City and County.

Jim Zellmer
Professional Engineer with the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources

Ald. Wiezbiskie asked Mr. Zellmer if he believed if we build the island with a clay
cap this would assure better safety to the general public. Mr. Zellmer responded
he did not. He said part of the reason they changed the administrative code was
because they found clay caps does not work and really do not perform any better
than compacted or fine grain soil. He indicated if the City was interested in a clay
cap, it should be placed below the frost layer. Ald. Wiezbiskie asked again other
than a feel good reason if there was any other reason a clay cap would prevent
more seepage in to the bay. Mr. Zellmer said the old design the County had
considered of 2 feet of clay and 1/2 feet of top soil would not be a barrier. Mr.
Zellmer said while he agreed a clay cap may be beneficial the wave action on
Renard Island actually carries more PCBs out of the island than water flowing
through the island, so by placing a cap the main factor is PCBs leaving the island
is not addressed.

Ald. Theisen asked Mr. Zellmer if the County went through with the current
closure plan and if in 20 years decided they wanted a campground on the island
would there be any issues. Mr. Zellmer said he did not believe there would be
any issues although he stressed there is a difference between a use where
individuals or children may be digging in the dirt versus a use similar to Bay
Beach where you are just standing on top of the island. Ald. Theisen commented
he would like to see a time when swimming at Bay Beach and asked if the waves
on Renard Island would be bringing out PCBs forever. Mr. Zellmer confirmed
PCBs would be leaving the island forever. Ald. Theisen asked if the PCBs that
drained out of the island would preclude swimming in the future. Mr. Zellmer said
the toxicologists biggest concern is with people eating bottom feeding fish that
would be both in the river and the bay and that the sediment all around the island
are already contaminated with PCBs. Mr. Zellmer stated even if the island was
not present there would still be concern about swimming due to the PCBs
already in the bay sediment. He continued that even with the river cleanup PCBs
will continue to flow into the bay and contaminate the sediment.

Ald. Kocha asked for clarification from Mr. Acker on the clay cap. Mr. Acker
explained the law does not require a cap, but it could be beneficial and add to
public acceptance of the island. Mr. Zellmer also commented if the DNR had felt
a clay cap or membrane had been required to protect the public they would have
required the closure plan to have one and it has nothing to do with the island
being grandfathered. Ald. Kocha asked Mr. Zellmer to clarify his statement on
why the administrative code was changed regarding clay caps. Mr. Zellmer
responded by saying the new code requires 2 feet of clay, 40 mil of very heavy
plastic, a drainage layer, rooting zone soils, and top zone soils. He continued by
saying a clay cap itself is not going to provide additional protection. Ald. Kocha
asked if money was not an issue what would Mr. Zellmer suggest. Mr. Zellmer
suggested a plastic membrane would be placed on the island essentially
eliminating any filtration of water into the island.

Ald. Wery asked how much it might cost for a membrane. Mr. Zellmer said it
might be a little over $8 million. Ald. Wery followed up by asking if the DNR
regularly tests around Renard Island. Mr. Zellmer said it currently is monitored
and monitoring is part of the closure plan. Ald. Wery asked if there was any
potential danger with the lower bay levels. Mr. Zellmer responded by saying
while he previously said he would not be concerned with his children on Renard
Island but would be concerned with the exposed lake bed.

Public Works Director Ed Weisner said the quantities that were used in the
estimate he provided were not his quantities and were provided to him from the
County and these quantities are in their closure plan. He wanted to clarify there
is a difference between a truckload measure and an in place measure. He also
stated at this level of cost estimation there are not contingencies. He continued
by saying until you do the engineering and get the facts only then can you start to
put together a more complete and precise cost estimation and advised caution
on any of the numbers. He also said the engineering costs are not uncommon
when you consider the installation and monitoring of the clay cap. Public Works
Director Weisner said the County is looking to place their material during the
winter when the ground is frozen. He said material would be stockpiled around
the island and then during the summer months you can get wide-track dozers out
to the island for final placement.

Tom Neuser
3341 Beach Lane

See attached document #6 for submitted remarks.

Jim Schmitt
Mayor of Green Bay

Mayor Jim Schmitt stated he had talked to County Executive Tom Hinz at the
request of Ald. Wiezbiskie. Mayor Schmitt said someday the island is going to be
a real opportunity for the City. He continued by saying he was not a Mayor to
close doors and if we had allowed the County to do what it wanted to do 3 years
ago would have closed the door for future use. Mayor Schmitt said the County
Executive said it would cost roughly $1 million to cap. Mayor Schmitt suggested
if the door is left open for use of the island you have to leave it open so people
are comfortable on the island. Ald. Theisen commented the County heard a few
years ago from their engineers a clay cap was not required. Ald. Theisen
continued to say Longtail Island is potentially more hazardous than Renard
Island, but if you go to Longtail Island on a nice sunny day you will find people
are not concerned. Ald. Theisen said while there are those who may be
concerned, the County has its experts and they are saying to go ahead with the
project the way it is and there is no issue. Mayor Schmitt asked if in 5 or 10
years someone had the money for a clay cap could it be done or is that door
closed. Ald. Theisen said the waves that travel through the island carry out more
PCBs than would ever come through the top. Ald. Theisen continued by saying
there is no way to prevent PCBs from coming out of the island. Bill Acher
answered Ald. Theisen by saying a clay cap could reduce the amount of PCBs
coming from the island by 50% and the wave effect on the island was relatively
small. Ald. Theisen said he wants to keep the door open so if someone 20 years
from now has a great idea the door is not closed and he believes that can be
accomplished with the current closure plan.

Ald. Wiezbiskie stated even though the engineers said the clay cap was not
required there will not be public acceptance of the island without the cap. Mayor
Schmitt asked Ald. Wiezbiskie what would happen if in 10 years funding or public
acceptance changed and would both those options be available with what is
currently being discussed for closure. Ald. Wiezbiskie responded he thought it
could be closed without the clay and in the future the clay could be added.
Mayor Schmitt asked if the island was capped with the current plan would it
preclude the future installment of a clay cap. Mr. Zellmer answered it would not
interfere and if in the future a clay cap was to be added, they would re-evaluate
the island. Ald. Theisen stated what the County does will not close the door to
future ideas and the City Council is not the place to continue looking at this issue.

A motion was made by Ald. Theisen to receive and place on file.

Mayor Schmitt said if money was no object everyone would be in favor of the
clay cap. Ald. Theisen disagreed and stated he is not convinced a clay cap
would work and there are detriments to a clay cap. Ald. Wiezbiskie said if money
was no object the ultimate goal would be a plastic membrane.

Kathy LeFebvre
1731 East Shore Circle

Ms. LeFebvre said the County and City dropped the ball and no one realized
what they were putting out in the bay. Ms. LeFebvre said the channel between
the island the shore is silting up so bad that pretty soon the island will be
attached to the City. She said the only good thing about the island since they
built it is that is has stopped the rest of the PCBs from coming in front of the
residents, but they are not under the impression the area is clean. She said the
perception of the island is true and when she went to collect signatures she said
the majority of the people called it “toxic island”. She said her main concern was
the PCBs.

Sheila Cradler
3481 Nicolet Dr

Ms. Cradler is President of the Nicolet Drive Neighborhood Association and has
been in this position for 2 years and a common concern of her area has been the
responsible closure of Renard Island. She said many of the people in her
neighborhood signed the petition and that it was not coerced. She said she was
looking for the reasonable and safe closure of Renard Island.

A motion was made by Ald. Deneys to return to close the floor for discussion.
Seconded by Ald. Wiezbiskie.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

Ald. Theisen’s previous motion to receive and place on file was brought forward.

Motioned failed for lack of a second.

Ald. Kocha asked if there was the availability of a grant would there be the
possibility of coming to some agreement with the County. Ald. Kocha asked why
the City cannot ask the County to look into the possibility of grant funds and why
would this have to come from some unknown constituent of the County to their
supervisor. Ald. DeWane said they can direct staff to take action.

A motion was made by Ald. Kocha that the City and County work together to
explore grant money that might be available to improve the current closure plan
to maximize the safety of the closure of the island.

Ald. DeWane said the motion would have to be directed to instruct City Staff to
initiate contact with the County to start exploring possible grant funding. Ald.
Wery asked if the motion could be directed to a County Committee instead of
through staff.

The motion was revised to request the Brown County Planning, Development
and Transportation Committee consider safe closure options for Renard Isle and
to pursue grant options for that purpose. Seconded by Ald. Wery.

Ald. Theisen reiterated his point he was not convinced a clay cap was required
for the closing of the island and that he does not want to see the County apply for
a grant that would really do something for another community while we may think
we are doing something but are not.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

8. Request by Ald. Dorff to explore a policy for allowing or disallowing
 active duty Council members to serve at Council or committee Meetings
 via phone or internet.
Ald. DeWane said they were going to attempt to put Ald. Danzinger on the phone
for this item.

A motion was made by Ald. Theisen that City Council adopt a policy to allow
active military duty Council Members to serve at Council or Committee meeting
via phone or internet. Seconded by Ald. Weizbiskie.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

Ald. Deneys was curious if there even had to be discussion on this item, seeing
as what was handed to them from the City Attorney’s office. City Clerk Chad
Weininger said he talked to Ald. Danzinger and Ald. Danzinger was standing by if
needed for a phone call.

Ald. Theisen said he wanted to address the concerns that were raised at the
Council meeting. He as an answer to the first item on the email that yes it can be
done the Alderman would be “present”. The second item which stated if it would
be a problem with open meetings laws was answered no. The third item relating
to the effect an appearance by phone has on the legal force behind the absent
alderman’s vote was no effect. The last item on whether the Council must
accommodate an Alderman’s request to appear by phone was no
accommodation was required; it was an option of the Council. Ald. Theisen said
the Council would not get in trouble for letting an Alderman participate by phone
because it is legal and a choice of the Council. The Council can either approve
or disapprove of the request.

Ald. DeWane said he contacted Melissa Schmidt who deals with municipal
councils and was told this is gray area and every community is different and
Green Bay did not have an ordinance on this item. Ms. Schmidt did say it could
be a Council vote to allow participation but as it stood now it would not be
improper to allow. Ald. DeWane said he contacted Ald. Danzinger and let him
know this item would be on the next Council agenda and the would be able to
join all the future City Council meetings. Ald. DeWane he explained there were
still some question as to whether participation via phone or internet should be
allowed and there may be a couple of no votes. Ald. DeWane told Ald.
Danzinger if that is the case he would like him to accept the fact we want him to
join the Council meetings and not sway away from it and Ald. Danzinger agreed.
Ald. DeWane stated after reading Attorney Decker’s answers he believed the
Council was allowed to let Ald. Danzinger participate. Ald. DeWane continued to
say he had a problem with this item on the Council floor because 1) it was not on
the agenda and 2) nobody really knew if it was legal or not and even the City
Attorney had questions at the time. Ald. Deneys asked Ald. DeWane if Ms.
Schmidt was going to get back to him with more information and she said the
attorneys were not in for the rest of the week and would get back to him and at
this point if there was an ordinance in Green Bay the City Council could just
change it. Ms. Schmidt also said she has never heard of this. Ald. DeWane
credited Rep. Soletski’s office with helping to get him in contact with the right
individuals. Ald. DeWane was also told there currently are three individuals in
Madison who are overseas and Madison does not allow this, but that does not
mean the City cannot. Ald. DeWane said this would be something new for Green
Bay and would continue the tradition of the City being a leader. Ald. DeWane
said Ms. Schmidt was going to get answers for him about roll call votes and
closed session.

The motion was read one more time.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

Ald. DeWane stated even though they just voted, Ald. Danzinger was prohibited
from texting a vote ahead of time.

9. Referral from Council to discuss voter fraud in Green Bay.
City Clerk Chad Weininger said there was talk about doing a postcard and talk
about doing a resolution. He also said the State of Wisconsin is looking into a
couple of cases of voter fraud where someone from another state voted in that
state and also in Wisconsin and Green Bay. He also stated he has been in
contact with the Milwaukee Election office to try and find different options
available to catch voter fraud. City Clerk Weininger said he needs to do some
more research before he can give a full report.

Ald. Deneys said one of the reasons this item came to the Committee was to try
and get a resolution down to the State regarding voter identification cards. City
Clerk Weininger said there were two parts to the item that was sent from Council.
The first was a post card and the second was a resolution and what City Clerk
Weininger is doing is combining both parts and looking at what some of the other
states have done and what some of the biggest problems in Wisconsin have
been. He also said the Wisconsin Assembly did not bring up this issue so there
is no rush as he does not expect the Assembly to address this issue until the new
Assembly is sworn in to office.

A motion was made by Ald. Wiezbiskie to refer the item back to staff. Seconded
by Ald. Theisen.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

10. Report by Ald. Wiezbiskie on working with staff to bring guidelines to
 improve respectfulness and orderliness at meetings.

A motion was made by Ald. Wiezbiskie to receive and place on file. Seconded
by Ald. Deneys.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

11. Report by Ald. Nicholson on working with staff to write guidelines for
 Council meeting presentations
City Clerk Chad Weininger stated the guideline for actual Council presentations
is the Mayor prerogative to allow a presentation to go on and he basically
controls the agenda. Typically a presentation gets sent to a committee first
unless it would be a larger presentation like an LZ Lambeau or such.

Ald. Theisen stated the ones that come to committee first it is up to the Chair to
recognize the speaker and let them know how long they get to speak and if the
committee wants them to speak longer the committee can make a motion to do
so. He continued the same thing would apply to the Mayor as he is the Chair of
City Council. Ald. Theisen asked City Clerk Weininger is there were time limits
for public at the podium. City Clerk Weininger responded that the practice has
been to allow 3-5 minutes. He continued on that the Mayor knows how long a
larger presentation such as LZ Lambeau is going to take before he agrees to
have the presentation at the Council meeting.

Ald. Theisen said it seems we have the procedures in place already to handle
presentations.

A motion was made by Ald. Deneys to receive and place on file. Seconded by
Ald. Kocha.

A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

There being no further business, a motion was made by Ald. Deneys, second by
Ald. Theisen to adjourn. Motion carried.