Ward 3 NPA — Burlington, VT
Date: 2026-05-06
Time: 18:30

Ward 3 Neighborhood Planning Assembly
 Wednesday, May 6, 2026, 6:30 PM
 Join in person: City Hall, Sharon Bushor Conference Room, 149 Church St.
 Join virtually: https://zoom.us/j/98644635243

Facilitator: Christopher Haessly
6:30 pm Call to Order | 5 min
 Adopt the agenda and review meeting ground rules.
6:35 pm DPW 2026 Construction Workplan | 25 min
 A presentation on the DPW’s 2026 construction workplan with updates on the Champlain
 Parkway and the Main Street projects.
 • Robert Goulding, Department of Public Works
7:00 pm McNeil Plant Presentation | 25 min
 A presentation by 350 Vt.org Chittenden Node and Stop VT Biomass.
 • Nick Persampieri, Climate Activist and Retired Environmental Lawyer
7:30 pm Candidate Forum | 50 min
 An opportunity to hear from candidates for State Senate in the Chittenden Central district.
 • Nikhil Goyal
 • Elaine Haney
 • Martine LaRocque-Gulick
 • Tanya Vyhovsky
8:20 pm Public Forum | 10 min
 An opportunity to share opinions, news, and events.
8:30 pm Adjourn
 Our next meeting is Wednesday, June 3.




Use the QR code to go to any of these links: Email us • Go to our website • Watch
meeting recordings on CCTV's website • Connect with us on Facebook or Instagram •
Request a time slot with the NPA Request Form • Links from this agenda
Appendix to the Agenda

Ward 3 NPA Ground Rules
  • Meetings should have clearly defined agenda and roles.
  • Honor Time limits: A best effort must be made to start on time, follow the agenda, and finish on time.
  • Wait to be recognized: Members may not speak until recognized by the moderator.
  • Listen to others: Make efforts to be an open-minded member of the group.
  • Respect the agenda and the process: Try to remain focused on the issue at hand.
  • Share your opinion respectfully: Speak out, but not over, others’ comments.
  • Treat people how you would like to be treated: Be respectful of everyone, including guests.

Public Forum Protocol
  • Community members will be required to sign up for the Public Forum before the start of the meeting
 consistent with the process used by the City Council.
  • Participants will have up to two (2) minutes to share their thoughts and will speak based upon the
 order in which the requests were received.
  • Participants may speak only for themselves and individual speakers will not be permitted to yield their
 time to other speakers.
  • Personal attacks will not be tolerated and the moderator reserves the right to limit comments that are
 disruptive and/or obscene.
  • Ward 3 residents will be given priority and, if there is still time, persons who live outside the ward will
 be provided an opportunity to speak.

Question-and-Answer Protocol
  • Please state your full name prior to asking your question.
  • Each participant will have thirty (30) seconds to ask one and only one question.
  • There will be no follow up questions so everyone has a chance to participate.
  • Ward 3 residents will be given priority.

Discussion and Debate Rules
  • Members may not speak until recognized by the moderator.
  • Each member will have a maximum of two (2) minutes to speak on questions before the NPA.
  • No member will be permitted to speak a second time until every member has had an opportunity to
 speak once.
  • No member will be permitted to speak a third time until every member has had an opportunity to
 speak twice.




 Appendix to agenda | Wards 3 NPA - Page 2

Ward 3 Neighborhood Planning Assembly
 Wednesday, May 6, 2026, 6:30 PM
 Join in person: City Hall, Sharon Bushor Conference Room, 149 Church St.
 Join virtually: https://zoom.us/j/98644635243

Facilitator: Christopher Haessly
6:30 pm Call to Order | 5 min
 Adopt the agenda and review meeting ground rules.
6:35 pm DPW 2026 Construction Workplan | 25 min
 A presentation on the DPW’s 2026 construction workplan with updates on the Champlain
 Parkway and the Main Street projects.
 • Robert Goulding, Department of Public Works
7:00 pm McNeil Plant Presentation | 25 min
 A presentation by 350 Vt.org Chittenden Node and Stop VT Biomass.
 • Nick Persampieri, Climate Activist and Retired Environmental Lawyer
7:30 pm Candidate Forum | 50 min
 An opportunity to hear from candidates for State Senate in the Chittenden Central district.
 • Nikhil Goyal
 • Elaine Haney
 • Martine LaRocque-Gulick
 • Tanya Vyhovsky
8:20 pm Public Forum | 10 min
 An opportunity to share opinions, news, and events.
8:30 pm Adjourn
 Our next meeting is Wednesday, June 3.




Use the QR code to go to any of these links: Email us • Go to our website • Watch
meeting recordings on CCTV's website • Connect with us on Facebook or Instagram •
Request a time slot with the NPA Request Form • Links from this agenda


 Page 1 of 40
Appendix to the Agenda

Ward 3 NPA Ground Rules
  • Meetings should have clearly defined agenda and roles.
  • Honor Time limits: A best effort must be made to start on time, follow the agenda, and finish on time.
  • Wait to be recognized: Members may not speak until recognized by the moderator.
  • Listen to others: Make efforts to be an open-minded member of the group.
  • Respect the agenda and the process: Try to remain focused on the issue at hand.
  • Share your opinion respectfully: Speak out, but not over, others’ comments.
  • Treat people how you would like to be treated: Be respectful of everyone, including guests.

Public Forum Protocol
  • Community members will be required to sign up for the Public Forum before the start of the meeting
 consistent with the process used by the City Council.
  • Participants will have up to two (2) minutes to share their thoughts and will speak based upon the
 order in which the requests were received.
  • Participants may speak only for themselves and individual speakers will not be permitted to yield their
 time to other speakers.
  • Personal attacks will not be tolerated and the moderator reserves the right to limit comments that are
 disruptive and/or obscene.
  • Ward 3 residents will be given priority and, if there is still time, persons who live outside the ward will
 be provided an opportunity to speak.

Question-and-Answer Protocol
  • Please state your full name prior to asking your question.
  • Each participant will have thirty (30) seconds to ask one and only one question.
  • There will be no follow up questions so everyone has a chance to participate.
  • Ward 3 residents will be given priority.

Discussion and Debate Rules
  • Members may not speak until recognized by the moderator.
  • Each member will have a maximum of two (2) minutes to speak on questions before the NPA.
  • No member will be permitted to speak a second time until every member has had an opportunity to
 speak once.
  • No member will be permitted to speak a third time until every member has had an opportunity to
 speak twice.




 Appendix to agenda | Wards 3 NPA - Page 2

 Page 2 of 40
DPW:
2026 CONSTRUCTION
Our Mission is to steward Burlington's
infrastructure and environment by delivering
efficient, effective, and equitable public services.

Chapin Spencer, Director
Cspencer@burlingtonvt.gov/802 - 863 - 9094
Robert Goulding, Public Information Manager
RGoulding@burlingtonvt.gov/802 - 881 - 2278
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THE TWO BIG PROJECTS
Main Street & the Champlain Parkway are
both anticipated to wrap up in early summer.

Both projects are on - time, and on - budget.

These projects are unlocking the potential for
additional housing & commerce while providing
enhanced infrastructure for residents




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CHERRY ST


Near final design
Construction could start in 2027, though may begin later




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CHAMPLAIN
PARKWAY
• 25MPH road
• Connects South End with
 Downtown
• Stormwater improvements
• Pedestrian enhancements: signals,
 shorter crossings, new sidewalks
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WHAT’S LEFT TO DO
(tentative schedules below)
Pine Street
• Roadway sign installation
• Signal activation (week of May 4)
• Pavement (Main Street) and sidewalk repairs (misc. along Pine) (upcoming weeks)
• General clean up
Champlain Parkway
• Overhead sign structure installation (continues)
• Roadway sign installation (starting next week, continuing)
• Final wearing course of pavement onto I - 189 and the ramps
• Pavement markings and line striping installation
• Traffic signal modification intersection of Home Avenue at the Champlain Parkway
• Full Parkway opening logistics (early Summer)
 • Signal timing adjustments for final condition along Champlain Parkway


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MAIN STREET

• A welcoming gateway into Vermont’s
  Queen City
• Wider sidewalks for pedestrians &
  commerce
• More trees & gardens
• Enhanced lighting
• Abandonment of ravine sewer
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WHAT’S LEFT TO
DO
• Sidewalks
• Signals
• Tree plantings
• Paving
• Public Art


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SIDEWALKS

The season has started!
$1.65M contract + additional work with in - house
crew
3.1 miles planned overall - hitting our annual target
Contract largely funded by 2025 Town Meeting Day
Bond


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SIDEWALKS
• Developed using the City’s 2021 citywide sidewalk inventory,
• Prioritizes based on utilization, location, and sidewalk condition.
  Utilization refers to both the expected level of use and the types of
  users.
• Location considers the sidewalk’s proximity to schools, neighborhood
  activity centers, employment centers, etc.
• In addition, staff review resident requests, perform field inspections,
  and coordinate sidewalk improvements with other City projects.
• This information is combined and considered to create a work plan
  that makes sense for effective mobilization of a contractor




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 SIDEWALKS**




**Short run segments not all included, but does
 include work on Pine near Bank; and
 intersection of Lake & College
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PAVING

Asphalt plants are open!
$1.7M contract + remaining work from CY 25
Total ~3.5 miles planned for the year
Largely funded by 2025 TMD Bond
Larger workplan being developed for 2027 - 2030




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PAVING
BACKGROUND
 • Street network consists of over 96 miles of streets.
 • Classified as Primary/Arterial, Secondary/Collector and Tertiary/Residential.
 • Each street type has different anticipated lifespan generally based on average daily traffic
 volumes.
 • In order to keep pace with the anticipated lifespan of the Burlington Street network,
 minimum target is 4 miles/year.

PRIORITIZATION
 • There are a number of factors DPW Staff consider when selecting streets to pave and
 patch.
 • Funding, street condition, street type/traffic volume, nearby projects and resident requests

HEADWINDS
While this year we had our most competitive bid environment in awhile, inflation & fuel
prices have eaten into available construction funding




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 PAVING*




 Remaining 2025 contract
 streets
 College Union - Willard
 Pearl Battery - Winooski

*Includes patches on lower North Ave, Lake St,
 Archibald St, Intervale Rd
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WATER WORKS!
Wastewater Treatment Plant Upgrades
 • Stage 0 remains on target for completion this summer/fall. This
 is a major first step to begin comprehensive upgrades funded
 by 2025 TMD bond
 • Screening & grit equipment being installed at all 3 plants

Water main improvement project
 • Includes: Pine St (from S Crest to Home Ave), Summit St (Maple
 to Main), and all of Bennington Court (coordinated with paving)

Manhattan Ave Stormwater Outfall: late summer/early fall




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Page 17 of 40
WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR WATER:

 https://vt.adopt-a-drain.org/




 https://seagrant.w3.uvm.edu/blue/



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 STAY INFOMED
 STAY IN TOUCH
 Maintenance Construction Customer
 Requests Impacts Service




 • Front Porch Forum
 See Click Fix: 802 - 863 - 9094
 • Signage
burlingtonvt.gov/dpw • VT - Alert:
 dpw - pinecustomerservice
 burlingtonvt.gov/
 @burlingtonvt.gov
 construction

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THANK YOU Page 20 of 40
Burlington’s McNeil Plant:
 A CASE FOR CLOSURE
 A presentation to Burlington’s NPAs
  By 350 Vermont’s Chittenden Node & Stop VT Biomass




 SPRING 2026

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Page 22 of 40
McNeil Plant Basics

• Commenced operation June 1984
• Located in Burlington’s Intervale
• Burns wood to generate electricity
• 50 MW (largest electricity generator in Vermont)
• Jointly owned by Burlington Electric Department (BED) (operator
 and 50% owner),Green Mountain Power (31%) and Vermont
 Public Power Supply Authority (19%)
• Provides 32-45% of BEDs total power supply (FY 2015-2023).



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The Case Against McNeil Plant

• Largest stationary source of greenhouse gas emissions in VT
• Harmful to health - particulate matter and other pollutants
 which leads to or exacerbates health conditions
• Negative impact on forest ecosystems and the benefits they
 provide.
• It costs a lot- the power it produces is expensive.
• It’s old and inefficient




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 McNeil’s Greenhouse Gas Emissions


 “Burning wood to generate electricity emits more carbon
  dioxide per kilowatt-hour generated than fossil fuels- even
 coal, the most carbon intensive fuel.”
-John Sterman, William Moomaw, Juliette N. Rooney-Varga & Lori Siegel, Does wood
 bioenergy help or harm the climate?, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, Vol 78, No. 3
 (2022) 130.

  McNeil emitted 316,405 tons of CO2 in 2025 (EPA). It also emits
 lesser amounts of the greenhouse gases methane and nitrous oxide.
Fossil-fuel powered equipment and vehicles used to pull wood feedstock
from the forests and transport it to the plant emits additional greenhouse
 gases.


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The Carbon Neutrality Myth

BED claims that McNeil is carbon neutral because BED engages in
sustainable forestry and the carbon dioxide emissions from its stack are re-
sequestered by trees as they regrow.
This is a myth. When trees are burned the carbon dioxide is released
immediately creating a carbon debt which takes decades to centuries to
eliminate through tree regrowth.
Also, regrowth is uncertain. Harvested areas may be converted to other
land uses or trees may succumb to insects, disease or drought.
 John Sterman, et al.; EU Bioenergy, Bioenergy Accelerates Climate Change,
https://www.eubioenergy.com/the-5-issues/it-accelerates-climate-change/




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 Theory (according to BED):
“Closed Loop” Carbon Cycle




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Reality:
Wood burning power plants
emit more CO2 per unit
energy and also degrade the
forest carbon sink.
The result is higher
atmospheric CO2
concentrations.




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Ecological Harm


• Burlington Electric claims: “McNeil’s wood supply is primarily 88.4% in-
  woods chips/residues such as the tops and limbs left over from
  higher-value wood products, with an additional 9.7% from sawmill
  residue and 1.6% from waste-wood yard wood.” (Bold added)
 - McNeil, Climate and Forestry, BED website.

• The reality: McNeil’s burns “Whole Tree Chips,” which include chips
  generated by cutting down and chipping whole trees.
-PUC Dkt. No. 4450, Certificate of Public Good for McNeil, 9/14/81 § 87; 6/22/83 Order Amending Certificate of Public Good.

• The plant burns 400,000 tons of woodchips per year
 -April 29, 2022 VEIC Summary Memorandum.
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  This impairs forest ecosystems and
 erodes important benefits forests
provide, including flood protection, & has
a destructive impact on forest ecology
 and wildlife.


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Carbon Rock Stars: Large, Older Trees & Forests
 How many oak trees does it take to store 8 tons of carbon?




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 Human Health

 McNeil emits particulate matter, nitrogen oxides, sulfur
dioxide, volatile organic compounds, including benzene and
 formaldehyde, and other pollutants which are known to be
 harmful to human health.
McNeil releases these pollutants in proximity to racially diverse,
 low and middle-income neighborhoods of Burlington’s Old
 North End and Winooski, whose residents face greater
 environmental risks than residents of other areas.


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 $ $$
Expense

• BED Financial statements show that McNeil has generated losses for 8
  of the last 10 fiscal years (2016-2025) totaling more than $34 million
  over the 10-year period. (This figure includes depreciation, but does not
  include interest.)
• As 50% owner, BED bears 50% of these losses.
• The average real-time price for wholesale power in New England in
  2024 was $39.50 per megawatt-hour. www.iso-ne.com/about/key-stats.
• Wholesale prices were forecast to increase to $55/MWH in 2025.
  U.S. Energy Information Administration.
• The net cost of generating power from McNeil was $96.42/MWH in
  fiscal year 2025 and $98.70/MWH in fiscal year 2024. McNeil Joint Owners
  Operating Committee Materials.
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Age & Efficiency of the Plant

• The plant is 26% efficient. (April 29, 2022 VEIC Summary Memorandum)
• It runs only about 50-60% of the time, and is frequently off-line for planned
  maintenance, repairs due to operational problems, or because of market prices.
• BED has invested in capital improvements to extend operation of the 42-year-
  old plant beyond its anticipated useful life.
• In 2023, BED obtained City Council approval to move forward with District Energy
  Project which would depend on McNeil.
• Additional capital expenditures are planned or under consideration.
• BED has planned all of these major expenditures without evaluating whether
  the plant should continue to operate or whether alternative sources of power
  would be more effective.

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Flawed Policies
Flawed Policies

BED has directed the course of Burlington’s overall climate policy, leading to
flawed policies.
• These call for reducing fossil fuel use rather than reducing GHG emissions from
  all sources (such as the McNeil Plant).
• The Net Zero Energy Roadmap defines “net zero,” as eliminating fossil fuel use in
  the heating and ground transportation sectors, yet calls for pursuit of the District
  Energy Project, which would perpetuate McNeil’s massive GHG emissions to
  produce electricity.
• The Carbon Pollution Impact Fee is applied to heating systems powered by
  fossil fuels but not to “renewable” systems and fuels with significant greenhouse
  gas emissions.
 Page 35 of 40
  This undercuts the potential benefits of
electrification of buildings and vehicles. To
meaningfully reduce GHG emissions through
electrification, we must electrify and obtain
  power from low carbon sources, such as
 hydropower, solar and wind.


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Our Vision:




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Advocate!

Burlington City Government Should:
• Place responsibility for development of the city climate policy in a
 city department or official independent of BED.
• Develop a plan to close the McNeil Plant, preferably by June 2028.
 The plan should include measures for a just transition to other
 employment for affected employees, a plan to keep electric rates
 stable, and ensure adequate energy for future needs.




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Actions We Can Take


• Connect with our city councilors (email, phone calls, in person
 conversations).
• Write to Mayor Mulvaney-Stanak.
• Attend a city council meeting and speak during public comment.
• NPAs to consider a resolution to send to City Council on this issue.
• Attend Electric Commission meetings and speak during public
 comment.
• Get involved with VT 350.org or Stop VT Biomass.



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Questions
Comments
Discussion



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Ward 3 Neighborhood Planning Assembly
 Wednesday, May 6, 2026
 Sharon Bushor Room, Burlington City Hall
 Meeting Minutes
1. Welcome & Call to Order
The meeting was called to order at approximately 6:34 PM by Zachary Cummings, Ward 3 NPA
Steering Committee member. A motion to adopt the agenda was made, seconded, and
approved by a voice vote.
2. Attendee Introductions
  • NPA Steering Committee Members:
 ✓ Zachary Cummings, South Champlain Street
 ✓ Darrell Fields, Church Street
 ✓ Christopher Haessly, College Street
 ✓ Charlie Messing, College Street
  • City Officials/Staff:
 ✓ Melo Grant, City Councilor, Central District
 ✓ Laura Sánchez-Parkinson, City Councilor, Ward 3
 ✓ Barbara Turnbull, Dept of Finance and Administration
 ✓ Charlie Giannoni, Town Meeting TV
  • Presenters:
 ✓ Chapin Spencer, Dept. of Public Works
 ✓ Robert Goulding, Dept. of Public Works
 ✓ Nick Persampieri, 350 Vermont & Stop VT Biomass
 ✓ Pike Porter, 350 Vermont & Stop VT Biomass
 ✓ Nikhil Goyal, Candidate, State Senate (Chittenden Central)
 ✓ Elaine Haney, Candidate, State Senate (Chittenden Central)
  • Community Members/Public:
 ✓ Jeffrey Peterson, Monroe Street
 ✓ Amy Prenowitz, Johnson Street
 ✓ Susan Forester, College Street
 ✓ Jill Lesh, College Street
3. DPW 2026 Construction Workplan
Presented by: Chapin Spencer (Director of Public Works) and Robert Goulding (DPW)
Major Projects Update:
 • Main Street Great Streets & Champlain Parkway: Both are on time and on budget.
 Paving on Main Street could begin as early as tomorrow, with brick crosswalks being
 installed at Church and Main next week. Both projects are expected to open to the
 public by late June or July.
 • Ravine Sewer: Director Spencer highlighted the successful abandonment of a 150-year-
 old brick/stone ravine sewer 30 feet below downtown, which was necessary for the
 opening of the Post Apartments.
 • Great Streets Cherry Street: Potential start in 2027 or 2028. The project will reconnect
 St. Paul and Pine Streets, reversing urban renewal decisions from 60 years ago.
Maintenance & Infrastructure:
 • Sidewalks: DPW is targeting a three-mile-per-year replacement cycle. This year’s work
 is funded by the 2025 Town Meeting Day bond. Work has already begun on Manhattan
 Avenue.
 • Paving: Plans include approximately 3.5 miles of paving this year. Notable nearby
 projects include College and Pearl Streets (held over from 2025), Depot Street, and Park
 Street.
 • Water/Wastewater: Upgrades to the wastewater treatment plant (Stage Zero) are
 underway to address phosphorus removal. A significant stormwater improvement
 project is planned for Manhattan Avenue.
Public Engagement:
 • Residents were encouraged to use SeeClickFix for maintenance requests and sign up for
 BTV Alert or Front Porch Forum for construction impacts. DPW is also hiring seasonal
 traffic maintenance workers to help paint crosswalks.
4. McNeil Plant Presentation
Presented by: Nick Persampieri and Pike Porter (350 Vermont)
Proposal: The presenters argued that Burlington Electric Department (BED) should close the
McNeil Power Plant and secure alternative power sources.
Key Arguments:
 • Climate Impact: It is the largest stationary source of greenhouse gases in Vermont.
 Presenters challenged BED's "carbon neutral" claim, stating wood burning emits more
 CO2 per unit of energy than fossil fuels and creates a "carbon debt" that takes decades
 to repay.
 • Health & Ecology: The plant emits particulate matter and toxins near environmental
 justice communities (Old North End/Winooski). "Whole tree chipping" was criticized for
 harming forest ecosystems and reducing flood protection.
 • Economics: Analysis suggests the plant lost over $34 million over 10 years and that the
 cost of generating power there ($96–$99/MWh) is significantly higher than market rates
 or wind/solar alternatives.
Policy Critique:
 • The presenters criticized the "Net Zero Energy Roadmap" for excluding power
 generation and the airport from its goals.
5. Candidate Forum: State Senate (Chittenden Central)
Candidates: Elaine Haney (Essex Junction) and Nikhil Goyal (Burlington)
Elaine Haney: Emphasized her twelve (12) years as a local official and her role in creating the
City of Essex Junction. Her priorities include:
 • Education: Regional approach to consolidation that respects communities.
 • Healthcare: Expanding "Dr. Dinosaur" coverage to all adults (Universal Primary Care)
 and exploring dental/vision/hearing inclusion.
 • Housing: Expanding programs like CHIP and reforming Act 250 to reduce building costs.
Nikhil Goyal: A sociology professor and former advisor to Senator Bernie Sanders. His priorities
include:
 • Healthcare: Universal Primary Care to remove insurance middlemen and implementing
 reference-based pricing at hospitals to prevent price gouging.
 • Economy: Addressing the cost-of-living crisis, property taxes, and energy bills.
 • Social Justice: Protecting immigrant neighbors from ICE and rehabilitating 10,000+ units
 of dilapidated housing through a State Land Bank.
Q&A Discussion: Both candidates addressed the drug crisis, advocating for more treatment
beds, re-establishing a state psychiatric hospital, and a regionalized approach to social services.
Goyal noted he is open to researching forced treatment in light of the fentanyl crisis, while
Haney stressed the need to protect civil liberties.
6. City Council Updates
Presented by: Councilors Melo Grant (Central District) and Laura Sánchez-Parkinson (Ward 3)
 ● Public Safety: Councilor Grant reported successful recent drug trafficking arrests that
 disrupted "problem houses" on Grant and South Winooski Streets. However, she noted
 this has caused activity to shift to other areas like the "Top of the Block" and near the
 state building on Pearl Street.
 ● Budget: The City is currently in budget season. Department presentations and line-item
 documents are available on the city website for transparency. The final vote is expected
 June 15th.
Community Events:
 • Old North End Cleanup: Scheduled for May 30th at the Sustainability Academy (SA) and
 the Integrated Academy for the Arts (IAA), featuring dumpsters for residents to dispose
 of large items.
 • Art & Culture: A Mrs. Secoy public art gift is being recommended for Battery Park.
 • Other: Central City Little League Community Night (next Wednesday), South End Get
 Down (May 15th), and the City Marathon were highlighted.
7. Public Forum
Members of the community came forward to speak on various topics.
 ● Clark Street Resident: Expressed deep concern over a massive increase in drug-related
 activity on Clark Street over the past week, questioning their ability to continue living
 there. Councilor Grant acknowledged the concern, attributing some of the shift to the
 closure of other problem houses and the exhaustion of "cold weather" motel program
 days.
 ● Charlie Messing (College Street): Reflected on the history of deinstitutionalization and
 suggested the need for positive skill-building programs for those on the street rather
 than just "playing whack-a-mole" with encampments.
8. Adjournment
A motion to adjourn was made, seconded, and passed unanimously. The meeting adjourned at
approximately 8:18 PM.