I didn't really understand what it was when I was in art school. I had a to take a course called Basic Design and it was about seeing space. I had to move a black square that I cut out around a white page so I could see the difference in the way a black square broke up the white space. And I was sloppy and I didn't paste my black square down right and I never made much discovery with it and I didn't understand it. I didn't know what I was looking at and I was sloppy, and I hated it. And then two years later, I took a course called Graphic Design and it wasn't about being neat, it wasn't so much about form, it was really about thinking and ideas. And that that was much more appealing to me. And as I began to think of ways of solving graphic problems, I became interested in typography, but I really started out as an illustrator. Because I liked drawing and I like to solve the idea with a drawing (they actually weren't very good). That was how I first began doing it and then I discovered the typography had form and then I was hooked.