Fact-checking Biden's 2022 State of the Union address | CNN Politics

(CNN) President Joe Biden delivered his first State of the Union address on Tuesday -- using the occasion to condemn the Russian invasion of Ukraine, promote his first year in the White House as a success story and attempt to revive his domestic legislative agenda.

Here is a fact check of some of the claims from Biden and the Republican response by Iowa Gov. Kim Reynolds:

Biden touted record job growth under his administration

"Our economy created over 6.5 million new jobs just last year, more jobs in one year than ever before in the history of the United States of America," Biden said.

The US added 6.6 million jobs in the first 12 months of Biden's term, more than the US added in any year going back to 1939, when this data series was first published . However, the Biden-era gains should be viewed with contextual caution. Biden inherited an economy that had been crushed by unprecedented pandemic-related job losses.

Biden took office less than a year after the economy shed more than 22 million jobs in two months because of the pandemic. Even with the jobs rebound -- which began under President Donald Trump in May 2020 -- the US was still, as of January 2022, down more than 2 million jobs from when the pandemic hit. In other words, the substantial Biden-era gains are still filling the giant pandemic hole.

Biden is free, of course, to argue that he is doing a good job filling that hole, and some economists argue that the pandemic stimulus package he signed into law in early 2021 has played a significant role in the subsequent job growth. But the timing of Biden's inauguration was a key factor too.

-- Daniel Dale and Tara Subramaniam

Biden on mask wearing and Covid progress

Biden highlighted the high number of Americans who no longer need a mask as a sign of real progress in the pandemic. Biden claimed that "most Americans in most of the country can now be mask free. And based on the projections more of the country will reach that point across the next couple of weeks."

Facts First: Biden is correct based on a based on a recent change in CDC metrics , when the focus expanded from community transmission to include hospitalizations and hospital capacity.

As of last Thursday, about 99% of the US population lived in an area where the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommended that people wear a mask indoors. On Friday that number dropped to 28%

On Friday, the number of people catching Covid didn't really change; what changed were the metrics the CDC used to determine who should wear a mask. CDC mask recommendations had been based on how high the transmission of the coronavirus was in a particular region. In addition to new Covid-19 cases, CDC mask guidance is now also based on new Covid-19 hospitalization and hospital capacity in a community.

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said Friday that the guidance change reflects the lower risk Americans have of severe disease since more people are vaccinated or have had a prior infection. Access to tests and treatments has also improved. Many states went ahead and previously dropped mask mandates without waiting for CDC guidance to change.

As of Tuesday, the US is now averaging 69,549 new Covid-19 cases per day, according to Johns Hopkins University. This is 21% drop since last week and the lowest cases have been since July. Still the US is averaging 1,933 new deaths a day. That's about the same as last week.

-- Jen Christensen

Strongest economic growth in four decades

Biden said the US economy had its strongest year in nearly four decades in 2021, growing at a rate of 5.7%.

Facts first: That is correct. But it also needs some more context because the economy is still recovering from the devastating impact of the pandemic.

The US economy was strong last year. The nation's gross domestic product, the broadest measure of economic activity, increased at a pace of 5.7% , according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis . That was the fastest growth rate since 1984, when Ronald Reagan was in the White House.

That said, America is also still recovering from the worst of the pandemic. In 2020, GDP contracted as a result of the economy shutting down in response to Covid-19. Last year's upswing was still making up for lost ground.

But the economic growth came at a price: inflation has soared, and Americans face higher prices everywhere from food to gasoline to furniture. At the start of 2022, two of the most-watched inflation indicators -- the Labor Department's consumer price index and the Commerce Department's personal consumption expenditure price index -- increased at the fastest pace since 1982 during the year ending in January.

-- Anneken Tappe

Assistance to Ukraine

Biden said: "We are giving more than $1 billion in direct assistance to Ukraine."

Facts First: This is true, but it needs context. The US has given more than $1 billion in total security assistance to Ukraine over the past year. While Biden administration officials have continued to send aid to Ukraine since the beginning of the Russian invasion six days ago, they are not giving the total $1 billion in assistance right now.

The US has given more than $1 billion in total security assistance to Ukraine over the past year, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said in a statement on February 26. The US is not currently giving Ukraine $1 billion in aid, as the President stated in his speech.

Blinken authorized the Defense Department to provide $60 million in immediate military assistance to Ukraine in the fall of 2021. In December, Blinken authorized an additional $200 million. After the invasion began, Blinken authorized a third aid package of $350 million for "immediate support to Ukraine's defense," Blinken said in the statement, bringing the total security assistance from the US to Ukraine "over the past year to more than $1 billion."

Biden administration officials have said they are continuing to send security assistance to Ukraine, even as the Russian invasion continues.

"It continues to arrive. and continues to get to them, including in just the last day or so," the official said on a call with reporters. "We're not going to talk about the specifics of how we get stuff in, so we can continue to get stuff in."

-- Ellie Kaufman and Jeremy Herb

Ability to sue gun makers

Addressing gun control, Biden repeated his claim that "gun manufacturers (are) the only industry in America that can't be sued."

CNN has previously fact checked this claim. Here's what we found

Facts First: This is false. Gun manufacturers are not entirely exempt from being sued, nor are they the only industry with some liability protections.

Under the 2005 Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, gun manufacturers cannot be held liable for the use of their products in crimes. However, gun manufacturers can still be held liable for (and thus sued for) a range of things, including negligence, breach of contract regarding the purchase of a gun or certain damages from defects in the design of a gun.

In 2019, the Supreme Court allowed a lawsuit against gun manufacturer Remington Arms Co. to continue. The plaintiffs, a survivor and families of nine other victims of the Sandy Hook Elementary School mass shooting , wanted to hold the company -- which manufactured the semi-automatic rifle that was used in the killing -- partly responsible by targeting the company's marketing practices, another area where gun manufacturers can be held liable. On February 15, those families reached a $73 million settlement with the now-bankrupt gun manufacturer and its four insurers.

Other industries also have some exemptions from liability. For example, vaccine manufacturers cannot be held liable in a civil suit for damages from a vaccine-related injury or death. And for the next four years, pharmaceutical companies developing the Covid-19 vaccines will have immunity from liability under the 2005 Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act. Those who claim to have been harmed by vaccines may receive money from the government, not the pharmaceutical company, via the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

-- Holmes Lybrand

Global supply chains and inflation

Biden said the pandemic disrupted global supply chains and in turn boosted inflation. A third of last year's inflation was due to higher car prices, he said.

Facts first: That's roughly correct.

As of January, inflation for used and new vehicles made up nearly a third of overall price increases.

The Labor Department's consumer price index rose by 7.5% in the 12 months ended in January. Prices for used cars contributed roughly 1.7 percentage points of that, while new vehicles added another half percentage point.

Car prices rose as manufacturers faced a shortage of computer chips used in new vehicles, hampering new production. As a result, used car prices spiked.

-- Anneken Tappe

Biden on support for his SCOTUS nominee

During his speech, Biden touted his Supreme Court nominee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, and claimed that her appointment has been embraced by a bipartisan array of interest groups and legal experts.

"Since she's been nominated, she's received a broad range of support, from the Fraternal Order of Police, to former judges appointed by Democrats and Republicans," Biden said.

Facts First: This is correct.

Jackson, who is the first Black woman nominated to the Supreme Court, comes from a law enforcement family. Her brother was a detective in Baltimore and two of her uncles were police officers, including one who was the police chief in Jackson's hometown of Miami.

Fraternal Order of Police National President Patrick Yoes issued a statement saying Jackson "has the temperament, intellect, legal experience, and family background to have earned this appointment" and will be a fair justice on the high court. This was a surprising endorsement, as the group endorsed former President Donald Trump in 2020 and the group's vice president recently slammed Biden for "demonizing" police officers.

Biden also accurately pointed out that Jackson has support from some retired GOP-appointed judges. This includes J. Michael Luttig, who served in the Virginia-based federal appeals court for 15 years and informally advised former Vice President Mike Pence regarding January 6. And according to Axios, Jackson is also supported by former Judge Thomas R. Griffith, who was an influential conservative voice on the DC Circuit Court of Appeals from 2005 until his retirement in 2020.

But there are limits to the bipartisan support for Jackson's nomination. Some Senate Republicans have criticized her record and the Republican National Committee called her a "radical, left-wing activist."

-- Marshall Cohen

Energy efficiency savings of climate agenda

As Biden touted the need to invest in energy efficiency, he said his clean energy legislative agenda would cut energy costs for American families an average of $500 a year by combating climate change.

Facts first: This needs context. Biden's estimate is based on third party analysis that assessed the savings Americans might see by 2030, not immediately.

Biden's $500 per year figure comes from a recent report done by the nonpartisan research firm Rhodium Group -- which analyzed how much greenhouse gas emissions the US could slash by passing major clean energy legislation, putting forth new federal regulations, and having states pass new climate and clean energy bills as well.

Rhodium's report also looked at how this would impact household energy costs; it stresses that clean energy tax credits would have the biggest impact on potential household savings because they would help bring down the costs of items such as clean electricity and electric vehicles.

"Long-term tax credits, investments in energy efficiency and other factors cushion consumers from price increases associated with new standards and regulations," the Rhodium report reads. "On a national average basis, households save roughly $500 a year in energy costs in 2030 in our joint action scenario."

As it notes, Americans wouldn't expect to see energy costs go down by $500 per year immediately. Rhodium estimates that would happen by the end of the decade, with savings building gradually if Congress passed a major clean energy bill.

-- Ella Nilsen

Biden on banning chokeholds for federal officers

Biden touted his record on criminal justice and said that the Justice Department "banned chokeholds" for federal officers.

Facts First: This is true, though it's important to note that the ban does not apply to state and local law enforcement officers.

Biden said the Justice Department banned chokeholds, but the "ban" wasn't a strict ban and doesn't apply to the thousands of local and state police departments across the country.

In September 2021, the Justice Department announced that federal law enforcement officers would be banned from using neck restraints except in rare cases . It wasn't a strict ban -- it still allowed agents to use those techniques when deadly force is justified. The policy change did not apply to local police departments, whose policies are set by mayors and city councils and whose laws are set by their state legislatures.

Neck restraints have resulted in high-profile in-custody deaths in recent years that have spurred calls for the technique to be banned. The DOJ's policy change bans both chokeholds and "carotid restraints" except in cases where officers are authorized to use deadly force. In those cases, an agent would still be able to apply pressure to someone's neck or carotid artery to restrict airflow or blood.

The DOJ can't change the policies of the thousands of local police departments across the country. But officials in academia and in law enforcement have advocated for federal "best practices" that local police departments could model, even if there was no way to enforce compliance. The DOJ's policy announcement was welcomed by some policing leaders.

Some big cities, even without law changes at the state level, have restricted the use of neck restraints in recent years. But even when departments or states "ban" techniques, there are exceptions allowed when deadly force is justified, when there's a threat to someone's life.

-- Peter Nickeas

Taxes on those earning less than $400,000

Biden said that his plan to cut costs for families won't raise taxes on anyone earning less than $400,000 a year.

"Nobody earning less than $400,000 a year will pay an additional penny in new taxes. Not a single penny," he said.

Facts First: This needs context and depends a lot on how you define taxes.

At least two economic models show that Biden's original economic plan would not raise taxes on those earning less than $400,000 when considering direct income and payroll taxes. That includes analyses from the nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget and the Penn Wharton Budget Model.

But some Americans who earn less than $400,000 may still be indirectly affected by Biden's proposed corporate tax increase. Many economists assume that an increase in the corporate tax rate will result in lower wages for workers and effectively reduce their after-tax income.

On average, the top 10% of tax filers, or those earning more than $115,800, could see their after-tax income shrink if one version of Biden's plan took effect, according to the Tax Foundation.

The change would result in a small decrease for those earning less than $400,000, amounting to about 0.2%. While those households won't face a higher income tax rate and won't be paying Uncle Sam more, their wages could take a hit due to the higher corporate tax rate.

A version of Biden's plan, known as Build Back Better , passed the House late last year but has stalled in the Senate and is unlikely to move forward in its current form. The tax increases were meant to fund an economic plan to transform the nation's social safety net and combat climate change.

-- Katie Lobosco

Biden's claim about Fortune 500 companies' tax bills

Calling for corporations and the wealthiest Americans to "start paying their fair share," Biden said, "Last year, 55 of the Fortune 500 companies earned $40 billion in profit and paid zero dollars in federal taxes."

Facts First: This needs context. Biden left out a significant word from the prepared text of his speech.

The prepared text, which the White House emailed to journalists just before Biden spoke, said that the 55 Fortune 500 companies paid zero dollars last year in federal income taxes. That was indeed the conclusion of a report from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a left-leaning think tank. (The institute looked at federal income tax data from 2020, the last year for which these figures are currently available, not 2021.)

However, in Biden's actual remarks to Congress, he said the 55 companies had paid zero dollars in "federal taxes," not zero dollars in federal income taxes in particular. It's possible that the companies in question paid some kind of federal taxes.

Matthew Gardner , a senior fellow at the institute, said in a text message to CNN during the State of the Union that he "would have preferred" that Biden had specified that the report was specifically about federal income taxes. Gardner added, though, that the omission of the word "income" is not "egregious." Gardner said the income tax is the only "substantial federal tax that is explicitly designed to be paid by corporations." (Companies also submit federal payroll taxes, which are legally split between employers and employees , but Gardner said it's "pretty non-controversial" that even the employers' share of those payroll taxes is ultimately borne by workers.)

One more note of context: The institute's analysis of large companies' federal income tax payments was based on the tax numbers the companies included in their public annual financial reports, which may not have been the same as the numbers on the companies' actual tax returns; the tax returns are usually not disclosed to the public. But as The Washington Post reported in October , the institute's conclusion is broadly consistent with a 2020 report from the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan federal entity that was able to analyze a sample of corporations' actual tax filings for the period from 2014 to 2018.

Gardner told CNN last week that since companies are required to publish their "best estimate of what that tax number will be" in their annual public reports, and since we will generally "never see" the actual figures from their tax returns, the numbers from their annual reports are appropriate ones to use.

-- Daniel Dale

Biden's claim on building 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations

Biden said his administration will "build a national network 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations" on the nation's roads, using money included in the bipartisan infrastructure law he signed in November.

Facts First: This needs context. For a few reasons, it's questionable whether the Biden administration will be able to meet its goal of installing 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations on US roads.

The $7.5 billion allocated to charging stations in the bipartisan infrastructure law that Biden signed into law last year is just half of the $15 billion that Biden had originally proposed for the charging network. This change from the original proposal could significantly hinder the administration's ability to meet the goal.

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Second, there's a wide range in how much different types of chargers cost, and individual states have a lot of leeway deciding what kinds of chargers will go on their roads. DC fast chargers can charge a car to mostly full in 20-30 minutes and are meant to go on major highways and roads. Another kind of charger known as an L2 charger can take hours to charge a car to full. DC fast chargers typically cost around $100,000 compared to around $6,000 for an L2, Ellen Hughes-Cromwick, a senior resident fellow at the think tank Third Way, has told CNN.

In a recent interview with climate publication Grist , Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg said that ultimately the number of EV chargers on the roads "really depends on how the states decide to mix the fast chargers and different types of technology."

-- Ella Nilsen

Biden on healthcare savings

Biden touted the $1.9 trillion coronavirus rescue package that he signed a year ago, saying that it is bringing people relief from skyrocketing inflation by reducing premiums for Obamacare plans through enhanced subsidies.

"Look the American Rescue Plan is helping millions of families with Affordable Care Act plans to save them $2,400 a year on their health premiums," he said.

Facts First: It's true the the enhanced subsidies in the American Rescue Plan are reducing monthly premiums. In fact, the average savings are likely even larger than Biden said.

Biden's statistic is based on an initial 2021 analysis from the Department of Health and Human Services that found the beefed up subsidies would save policyholders $50 a month, on average, or $2,400 for a family of four.

The agency later found that existing Obamacare policyholders who signed up for new or updated 2021 plans during last year's special enrollment period saved an average of $67 per consumer per month on premiums, thanks to the subsidies. That equates to just over $3,200 a year for a family of four.

Multiplying the per person savings by four is "imprecise," but it does yield an approximately accurate figure, said Larry Levitt, executive vice president for health policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation. The updated HHS statistic is in line with a Kaiser analysis that estimated those who purchase Affordable Care Act policies would save $70 per person per month, on average.

The American Rescue Plan made several major changes to Affordable Care Act subsidies for 2021 and 2022. Enrollees pay no more than 8.5% of their income on health insurance coverage, down from nearly 10%. Lower-income policyholders receive subsidies that eliminate their premiums.

Also, those earning more than 400% of the federal poverty level now qualify for premium assistance, lowering what they pay each month.

-Tami Luhby

Reynolds on Biden and Harris visiting border

Iowa Gov. Kim Reynolds, in the Republican response, touted GOP governors who visited the US-Mexico border, claiming: "We've actually gone to the border, something that our President and vice president have yet to do since taking office."

Facts First: Reynolds is partially correct. President Joe Biden has not been to the US-Mexico border since he was elected, but Vice President Kamala Harris did visit the border last June.

After a surge of unaccompanied minors at the US southern border last year, Harris visited El Paso, Texas -- a city on the US-Mexico border -- in June and toured a US Customs and Border Protection facility. She was joined by Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, Senate Judiciary Chairman Dick Durbin and Democratic Texas Rep. Veronica Escobar.

The visit to El Paso came on the heels of fierce GOP criticism of Harris, who had been tasked by Biden with leading diplomatic efforts in the Northern Triangle to address root causes of migration.

-- Priscilla Alvarez

Reynolds on Democrats and defunding the police

Reynolds said, "Many prominent Democrats still want to defund the police."

Facts First: This needs context. While it's certainly possible to find elected Democrats While it's certainly possible to find elected Democrats who support the idea of defunding the police, the party's Washington leaders -- notably including Biden -- have explicitly opposed the idea. Biden, in fact, rejected the concept once more during Tuesday's address itself.

Biden said in the State of the Union: "The answer is not to defund the police. It's to fund the police. Fund them. Fund them. Fund them with resources and training."

It's worth noting that the slogan "defund the police" means different things to different activists -- from the dissolution of police forces to partial reductions in funding.

- Daniel Dale

Reynolds on DOJ treating parents like 'terrorists'

In accusing the Biden administration of being soft on crime, Reynolds claimed that "the Department of Justice treats parents like domestic terrorists" instead of cracking down on violent crime and looting.

Facts First: This claim about the Justice Department is false. It was It was debunked last year -- during the uproar at school boards over Covid-19 restrictions and anti-racism curriculums -- but has nonetheless remained a GOP talking point. The Justice Department isn't treating concerned parents like terrorists.

The National School Boards Associations, in a September letter to the Justice Department asking it to "deal with" the uptick in threats against education officials , equated that activity to "domestic terrorism." In response, Attorney General Merrick Garland directed federal prosecutors to work with state and local authorities to combat the issue -- but importantly, he never used or embraced the heated "domestic terrorism" language.

Still, Congressional Republicans pounced and quickly accused Garland, Biden and the DOJ of treating innocent parents like terrorists. At contentious hearings last year, Garland said prosecutors were only looking at violent threats against educators and weren't trying to crack down on free speech.

The FBI's counterterrorism division did create an internal "threat tag" called "EDUOFFICIALS" to help agents monitor investigations and intelligence assessments about illegal threats against teachers and school board officials. This is an internal organizing tool -- not a nationwide dragnet to target concerned parents who speak up nonviolently at school board meetings. It's impossible to know everything the FBI is doing behind the scenes, but this is a very far cry from the massive abuses claimed by top Republicans.

-- Marshall Cohen

This story has been updated

Mitch McConnell wants to end beefed-up unemployment benefits

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell is being accused by Democrats at home and across the country of turning his back on Kentucky at a critical time after he reportedly vowed to put a stop to enhanced unemployment benefits.

McConnell made clear during a conference call with House GOP members on Wednesday how the $600 weekly boost — which was provided to help those who lost their jobs because of the coronavirus — "will not be in the next bill" out of Washington.

A source familiar with the conversation on Thursday told The Courier Journal that McConnell said the Senate was, "going to have to clean up the Democrats' crazy policy that is paying people more to remain unemployed than they would earn if they went back to work."

This statement comes as 47,000 Kentuckians filed initial unemployment claims as of May 16, and more than 246,000 Kentuckians are asking for continued assistance as parts of the state economy begin to reopen.

Oregon Sen. Ron Wyden, the ranking Democrat on the finance committee, told The Courier-Journal in an interview Thursday the numbers he's seen show COVID-19 has hit Kentucky with a "wrecking ball" economically.

"Mitch McConnell's comments indicate he either doesn't care or doesn't understand that unemployment insurance doesn't just protect families who've had misfortune, it's a lifeline for communities," he said.

Wyden said those benefits are more than just wage replacement but also inject demand into the market as a way to stabilize the economy. He is pushing for a bill that would link unemployment benefits to economic conditions and continue the extra $600 until a state's unemployment rate falls below 11%.

Read more:Coronavirus pandemic pushes Mitch McConnell and other Senate candidates to change tactics

Kentucky has seen nearly 800,000 people apply for unemployment benefits since mid-March, when the coronavirus first put a choke hold on the U.S. economy. Since then, the state's jobless rate has surged to a little more than 15% in April.

The Kentucky Democratic Party also pounced on McConnell's hardening position in the context of those statistics, saying it comes as the GOP leader is holding up additional financial aid for states and local governments withstanding massive budget deficits because of the contagion.

“This is what happens when you surround yourself with expensive D.C. consultants who don’t care about Kentucky," Democratic Party spokeswoman Marisa McNee said.

"First, Mitch wanted to let states go bankrupt, leading to layoffs for first responders and public health officials," she added. "Now, he wants to cut unemployment benefits for Kentuckians who are out of work through no fault of their own. Kentucky deserves better.”

Related:More than 40,000 people filed for unemployment last week in Kentucky

McConnell said during a Thursday interview with Fox News that continuing unemployment insurance is important amid the coronavirus crisis but emphasized the extra $600 benefits will end in July.

"We think that in order to create jobs, we need to incentivize people to go back to work, not encourage them to stay home," he said.

Unemployment insurance typically covers up to 45% of lost wages, but Congress took an extraordinary and bipartisan step with the CARES Act to provide 100% of lost wages for many Americans.

The thinking at the time was this was needed in order to keep people safe from the coronavirus while also stabilizing the economy, but McConnell's comments indicate how conservatives are beginning to thaw on the idea.

McConnell's office pointed to an ABC News story on Thursday about how some employers are having a hard time competing with the boosted benefits.

In it, ABC draws attention to a study showing roughly 40% of workers made less in their jobs than they would on the new unemployment, according to national data gathered by Noah Williams at the Center for Research On the Wisconsin Economy.

McConnell has reportedly told President Donald Trump any new legislation must create incentives for people to get back to work. He said previously he wants see how the previous COVID-19 relief bills, which total about $3 trillion, play out before the Senate moves on any new proposals.

Gov. Andy Beshear, a Democrat, said earlier this week how his administration believes it has enough money in its Unemployment Insurance Trust Fund to last through the spring and at least part of the summer.

Kentucky took out a $972 million loan to cover unemployment benefits when it zeroed out its trust fund during the Great Recession of 2008-09. The state finished repaying the federal government in 2015.

But with nearly two in five Kentucky workers out of a job, the governor said he expects the state will have to take out a loan unless the federal government provides more direct assistance.

Asked Thursday if he's worried that unemployment benefits outpacing private sector wages will dampen the reopening, Beshear said he thinks plenty of people are ready to get back to work.

"I'm not for cutting the benefits they are getting at this time," he said.

McConnell has conceded, according to other reports about Wednesday's conference call, how further aid may be necessary in the coming weeks but that it must be more short-term relief.

House Democrats passed the HEROES Act last week with a $3 trillion price tag, but McConnell reportedly told the GOP House members the bill will have to go through serious changes in the Republican-controlled Senate before being considered.

Reach Phillip M. Bailey at pbailey@courier-journal.com or 502-582-4475. Follow him on Twitter at @phillipmbailey.

Coronavirus: Half of US hotels could close amid pandemic, exec says

Half of the hotels in the U.S. could shutter amid the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, according to Chip Rogers, president and CEO of the American Hotel & Lodging Association.

"If something doesn't happen quickly, since occupancy is trending toward zero, you're going to see thousands of hotels go out of business," Rogers told USA TODAY. While many will close and reopen at some point in the future, others won't.

"It's almost like getting hit by a bolt of lightning," Rogers said when asked about the industry's preparedness for a situation like this. "When you walk out your door, that's the last thing you expect to happen to you."

There are about 56,000 hotels across the U.S., and 25,000 of those could close in the next few weeks, at least temporarily, according to Rogers.

U.S. Travel Association President and CEO Roger Dow said closures will depend on various relief bills. He said 10% to 15% of hotels around the country go bankrupt right now, each week and month it grows more dire.

The hotel industry is seeking a total of $250 billion in bailouts for owners, employees and suppliers, saying devastated room bookings due to the coronavirus are resulting in closures and mass layoffs. Other sectors, like airlines and cruise lines, are also seeking relief.

Hotel occupancy rates dipped 24.4% to just 53% during the week of March 8 to 14, compared to the same week last year, according to STR data.

If occupancy dips below 25% to 30%, instead of trying to hold on to a skeleton staff, hotels would save money by closing their doors.

Marriott is poised to place tens of thousands of employees on furlough as the hotel giant reels from the coronavirus outbreak. And Hilton spokesperson Meg Ryan confirmed to USA TODAY that two high-profile, Hilton-managed properties are temporarily suspending operations: the Capital Hilton in Washington, D.C, and the New York Hilton Midtown.

Travel industry leaders met with President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence this week and told them the impact of coronavirus is possibly two or three times as bad as after 9/11 and the financial crisis combined. Even since that meeting, hotel occupancies have declined, Rogers said.

When should people start booking hotels again?

At open hotels, guests won't have to worry about social distancing, Rogers said, because of there are few customers left.

And guests can often book hotels last-minute without penalty.

"They can certainly have confidence to go ahead and book," Rogers said, noting travelers can take advantage of good deals during the crisis.

The industry is working lobbying Congress and the Trump administration to ensure employees are taken care of, first and foremost, and that they have jobs to return to, Rogers said.

Marriott President and CEO Arne Sorenson addressed the difficult situation in a video posted to the company's Twitter this week.

"I have never had a more difficult moment than this one," he said, tearing up. He spoke of his lack of salary during this period, the restrictions in place at open hotels and hotel closures.

An Oxford Economics study predicted 2.8 to 3.4 million jobs in the hotel industry will be lost, compared to the 400,000 lost from the recession in 2001 and 9/11 and the 470,000 lost in the recession of 2007 to 2009.

As industry leaders note, the impacts of COVID-19 aren't over.

"Through comparative analysis of the occupancy trends in China and Italy over the past weeks, we can with certainty say that we are not yet close to the bottom in the U.S.," Jan Freitag, STR’s senior vice president of lodging insights said in a statement. "However, the timeline for that decline and the eventual recovery are much tougher to predict because there is still so much uncertainty around the COVID-19 case numbers in the U.S. and how serious citizens are when practicing social distancing."

Contributing: Chris Woodyard, Nathan Bomey

Colo. farmers arrested in listeria outbreak that killed 33

Chris Vanderveen

KUSA-TV, Denver

The outbreak was the nation%27s deadliest since 1924

Almost 150 people became sick%2C didn%27t die

People living in 28 states were affected

HOLLY, Colo. — Two brothers who owned and operated a cantaloupe farm directly linked to a listeria outbreak that killed 33 people pleaded not guilty Thursday to criminal charges stemming from the incidents.

Eric and Ryan Jensen, ages 37 and 33, of the now-bankrupt Jensen Farms were arrested Thursday and each charged with six misdemeanor counts of introducing adulterated food into interstate commerce.

The men appeared Thursday afternoon in U.S. District Court in Denver and were released on a $100,000 unsecured bond. The Jensens each could face up to six years in prison and up to $1.5 million in fines if they are convicted of all six counts, prosecutors said.

Their trial is scheduled for Dec. 2.

The cantaloupe growers' farm is considered the source of a national listeria outbreak that killed at least 33 and sickened another 147 people in 2011, one of the country's most deadly outbreaks of food-borne illness, according to government investigators.

The lawyer who represents 46 families in several civil lawsuits against the farmers issued a statement on his website Wednesday saying he was pleased the U.S. Attorney's Office has recognized "that some form of criminal sanctions were appropriate against Jensen Farms." Lawyer Bill Marler of Seattle first urged the U.S. Attorney's Office to consider criminal charges last year.

Criminal charges in food poisoning cases are rare, Marler said Thursday. Only four other people have faced such charges in the past decade.

He noted that felony charges would have required prosecutors to show the contamination was intentional.

"The real significance of the case against the Jensens is they are being charged with misdemeanors, which do not require intent, just the fact that they shipped contaminated food using interstate commerce," he said.

After Thursday's hearing, the men released a statement calling the outbreak a "terrible accident" and saying they were shocked and saddened by it. The statement said the charges do not imply they knew about the contamination or that they should have known about it.

The misdemeanor "was the best, most serious charge we could find," said Jeff Dorschner, the prosecutors' spokesman. Prosecutors decided to pursue the case because so many people were affected.

The Centers for Disease Control linked cantaloupe grown at Jensen Farms to the listeria outbreak that began at the end of August 2011. In October of that year, the Food and Drug Administration found that Jensen Farms' packing and storage facilities likely helped spread the listeria and directly contributed to the outbreak. Cases associated with the strain of listeria traced to Jensen Farms ended in December 2011.

Listeriosis from listeria bacteria is a serious infection that primarily affects older adults, pregnant women, newborns and adults with weakened immune systems. Fever and muscle aches sometimes accompanying diarrhea or other digestive problems. Pregnant women face a risk of miscarriage, which one survivor did experience. Convulsions also are possible in severe cases, according to the CDC.

The FDA said one piece of equipment, a used potato washing machine bought just before the outbreak, was its possible cause and cited dirty water on the floor of the packing center as well.

"Several areas on both the washing and drying equipment appeared to be un-cleanable, and dirt and product buildup was visible on some areas of the equipment," according to the FDA report.

The way the cantaloupes were cooled after being picked may have exacerbated the listeria growth, the FDA said. Another possible source of contamination was a truck that frequently hauled cantaloupe to a cattle operation and was parked near the packing house.

The outbreak was the deadliest outbreak of foodborne illness since 1924. The CDC said people living in 28 states consumed contaminated cantaloupe.

The outbreak was a setback for farms in southeast Colorado's Rocky Ford cantaloupe region, where hot, sunny days and cold nights produce fruit known for its distinct sweetness.

Jensen Farms was located about 90 miles east of Rocky Ford, but the Jensens used the Rocky Ford name and sales dropped across the region. Later, Rocky Ford farmers patented the Rocky Ford name, hired a full-time food safety manager and built a central packing operation where melons are washed and rinsed.

Tammie Palmer of Colorado Springs, Colo., whose husband, Charles, became ill after eating the cantaloupe and died in July 2013, said the criminal case won't help her.

"My husband is already dead," she said. As Charles Palmer was being treated for listeria, doctors discovered cancer and he never fully recuperated from his listeria infection.

She said a just outcome would be to prevent the Jensens from farming again or having any involvement with the food industry. Palmer and her husband filed a lawsuit seeking $2 million from Jensen Farms, but it hasn't been resolved. He had more than $250,000 in medical bills.

"I was hoping everything would be settled and I could do something with my husband," she said. "But that's not going to happen."

Contributing: The Associated Press

Today's talker: Trump administration work to restrict asylum is cruel

USA TODAY

On Monday, Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced that victims of domestic abuse and gang violence will no longer qualify for asylum. The Justice Department cited immigration law in a written statement: "Laws provide for asylum to be granted to individuals who have been persecuted, or have a well-founded fear of persecution on account of their membership in a particular social group."

Immigration policy is morally bankrupt

The Trump administration, notably Attorney General Jeff Sessions, is implementing a morally bankrupt and unprecedented series of border and immigration policy changes that are resulting in the cruel separation of families, the end of long-established legal avenues for people seeking protection from persecution, and the tarnishing of America’s tradition as a beacon of hope for the oppressed around the world.

These cruel policies are designed explicitly to strike fear in the vulnerable and are being implemented with little planning and in violation of international obligations.

In May, the attorney general with the Department of Homeland Security began to implement a "zero tolerance" policy, vowing to prosecute all immigrants crossing the border in between ports of entry and separate children from their parents in an attempt to deter families seeking protection from violence or the opportunity to provide for their family.

Parents, after trials lacking in due process, are now describing horrific accounts of their children being taken by DHS. They also report being given little to no information on the whereabouts of their children, how to remain in contact with them, and how to reunite with them.

It shocks the conscience to know that children are being ripped from parents’ arms only to be further traumatized in unsuitable and unsafe detention facilities. A detention facility is no place for a child.

Meanwhile, Sessions single-handedly has reinterpreted established principles in asylum law to close the door on large numbers of people seeking protection from violence — without following appropriate legal mechanisms and precedent. For example, in a footnote of a recent decision that closes asylum claims for most refugees seeking protection from domestic and gang violence, he attempts to close the door to asylum before a refugee even has a chance to explain. In another footnote, he seeks to substantially increase the standard to prove an asylum claim, making it even more difficult for people with legitimate asylum claims, especially since so many do not have lawyers.

This entire crisis will get worse — with more and more children held in holding cells beyond the legal limit and exposed to abuse. Pediatricians corroborate serious and lasting consequences to foster children, including infants and toddlers.

When children are being harmed by cruel and barbaric policy, it is incumbent on Congress to immediately act. Instead, Republicans in Congress have failed to hold this administration accountable and are now touting a bill that ends protection for refugees, does nothing to prohibit this cruel policy, and decreases standards for already horrific detention conditions.

Ur Jaddou is the director of DHS Watch for America's Voice and a law professor at American University.

What others are saying

Attorney General Jeff Sessions, The Hill: "We are really returning to the classical understanding of what asylum is. Asylum is not a claim that you have suffered a specific act of private violence or any other crime. It is really a systemic problem in which a group of people, based on ethnicity or race or nationality or other such factors, are oppressed in a given country."

Jason Sattler, USA TODAY: "Donald Trump’s immigration policies are having lethal consequences. Marco Antonio Muñoz, a Honduran man seeking asylum in Texas, committed suicide in his padded cell after Border Patrol agents separated him from his wife and 3-year-old son. Manuel Antonio Cano Pacheco was murdered in Zacatecas, Mexico, where he was deported after he was convicted of two misdemeanors and lost his protection under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program. These are two tragedies arising from the Trump administration’s insistence on making America’s already cruel immigration policies even more intolerable by cracking down on refugees and people brought to this country as kids. How many more are there? Who knows?"

The Anniston (Alabama) Star, editorial: "Sessions’ world view is a stark canvas of evil vs. good that allows no wiggle room, no gray area, nothing but grimness. ... He is the U.S. attorney general, an Alabamian named after Confederate heroes, and he is embarrassing this great nation. ... The Mexico depicted in President Trump’s tirades is a lawless expanse, a hyperbolic statement rooted in that nation’s documented problems with the illegal drug trade. But the rise in Central American immigrants arriving at America’s Southern border and applying for asylum is directly related to the increase in violent crime in those nations. Their persecution is real. ... Sessions, meanwhile, has misplaced his soul."

What our readers are saying

I'm anti-Trump, but I think this policy makes sense. Asylum usually is reserved for those who are persecuted due to their political or religious beliefs.

— Triston Nguyen

It does sound heartless, but unless a person can show that they have sought protection from their home country and been denied, I don't understand why it would be an asylum case at all.

— Robin Cox

@SenCoryGardner Domestic abuse and fear of gangs is the reason for asylum. Your silence is noted on this, babies ripped from mother’s breasts, rescinding pre-existing coverage, etc.. Colorado voters are talking. Silence is acceptance!

— @wuzKidCurry

#tellusatoday Jeff Sessions' rules about immigration are cruel and unconstitutional to boot.

— @aloneinnh

The sad thing is, if things keep heading down the path we seem to be going down, Americans may need to seek refuge in another country in a generation or so. Won’t your grandchildren hope that their requests will be met with more compassion than you were willing to show in your time?

— Ann O'Connor

Letter to the editor

Our nation was founded on the premise that everyone is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That premise makes America great only if made real.

During the Cold War, we granted asylum to thousands of people who could not exercise free speech, assembly, petition, travel and religion, and who could not pursue happiness. Though their very lives were immensely miserable, for the most part their lives were not at risk.

Now our administration would shut our doors to those whose lives are very much at risk due to governmental death squads, gang and domestic violence, and guerrilla brutality. Adding to the trauma of many immigrants attempting to find refuge in our land, they are branded criminals and shackled while their children are torn from their arms and concentrated in camps.

Where are the so-called right-to-lifers? Our hypocrisy is astounding, our moral bankruptcy painfully obvious!

Scott Saulson; Atlanta

Gas prices are high. Oil CEOs reveal why they're not drilling more ...

New York (CNN Business) The US oil industry doesn't appear to be in any rush to come to the rescue of Americans struggling with high gas prices . Oil company CEOs say Wall Street is to blame.

Fifty-nine percent of oil executives said investor pressure to maintain capital discipline is the primary reason publicly traded oil producers are restraining growth , according to a Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas survey released Wednesday.

For years, the boom-to-bust oil industry spent lavishly to fund all-out production growth. US oil output skyrocketed, keeping prices low. Yet sustaining profits proved elusive. Hundreds of oil companies went bankrupt during multiple oil price crashes, leading investors to demand more restraint from energy CEOs.

Today, oil companies are under enormous pressure from Wall Street to return cash to shareholders through dividends and buybacks, instead of investing in badly needed supply.

"Discipline continues to dominate the industry," an executive from an oilfield services firm told the Dallas Fed in the survey . "Shareholders and lenders continue to demand a return on capital, and until it becomes unavoidably obvious that high energy prices will sustain, there will be no exploration spending."

US output is down even as prices skyrocket

Although US oil supply is expected to rise in the coming months, it remains well below pre-Covid output. That's despite the fact that oil prices have spiked to levels unseen since 2008.

The United States produced 11.6 million barrels per day in the week ending March 18, according to the US Energy Information Administration. That's down 10% from late 2019.

Prices, on the other hand, have surged. US crude oil closed at $114.93 a barrel Wednesday, up 88% from the end of 2019.

Current prices are well above the $56 per barrel average that oil companies told the Dallas Fed they need to profitably drill. Larger companies said they need per barrel prices of just $49 to turn a profit.

Yet oil executives and investors don't want to add so much supply that it causes another glut that crashes prices. And shareholders want companies to return excess profits in the form of dividends and buybacks, not reinvest them in increasing production.

One executive surveyed pointed to the staggering losses suffered by shareholders in recent years. The energy sector, comprised largely of oil-and-gas firms, was easily the worst performer last decade.

"Investors dumped huge funds into shale drilling only to discover that when oil prices dropped, very little value existed at the end of the day," the executive said.

Only 6% blame government regulation

Following Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the US price of regular gasoline hit a record high of $4.33 a gallon.

Although environmental policies are often blamed for high energy costs, oil executives do not seem to view them as the central factor here.

Just 6% of executives polled by the Dallas Fed pointed to government regulations as the primary reason publicly-traded oil companies are restraining production growth.

Another 11% pointed to environmental, social and governance (ESG) issues. The ESG movement has led many investors to shy away from fossil fuel companies in favor of clean energy ones.

About 15% of executives said "other" factors were to blame, including personnel shortages and supply-chain problems.

'Vilification' of the oil industry

Still, multiple executives surveyed expressed significant concern about regulations and rhetoric on the industry coming from the federal government as well as individual states such as Colorado.

"The message from the White House, Capitol Hill and Wall Street has been that oil and gas is a dying industry and one that needs to be abandoned," one survey respondent said. That executive pointed to "serious workforce issues" that are being driven in part by the "vilification" of the oil-and-gas industry.

"Regulation is significantly hurting and hampering US energy production," another executive said.

For consumers worried about near-record gasoline prices, the good news is that more supply is coming.

The business activity index in the Dallas Fed survey jumped in the first quarter to the highest level in its six-year history. That gain was driven by a sharp increase in the oil production index.

The bad news is that Big Oil companies are signaling just a modest increase in supply.

Among large oil companies, the median production growth rate between the fourth quarter of last year and first quarter of this year was 6%. Small firms, many of which are not publicly traded, expect much faster production growth of 15%.

If US oil companies and OPEC fail to ramp up output, analysts have warned that energy prices will likely stay painfully high.

One oil executive in the Dallas Fed survey said the United States needs to raise production by about two million barrels per day in 2023 to balance global supply and demand.

"It is looking unlikely that this will happen," the executive said, "which will result in sustained higher energy prices until the American consumer is pushed into recession."

Groups urge Whitmer to end Michigan in-person office work restriction

Some business groups across the state are urging Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's administration to not extend pandemic-related restrictions on in-person office work that are set to expire next month, claiming that an extension could be devastating to Michigan's economy.

The restrictions are in an emergency order by the Michigan Occupational Safety and Health Administration, commonly called MIOSHA, that went into effect Oct. 14 and runs through April 14.

The order requires numerous preventative steps at workplaces to halt the spread of COVID-19, including a rule that employers "shall create a policy prohibiting in-person work for employees to the extent that their work activities can feasibly be completed remotely."

A new coalition of chambers of commerce and businesses, calling itself the Reopen Michigan Safely coalition, said Thursday that the Whitmer administration could potentially issue a six-month extension to the office work restrictions.

Such a lengthy extension would hurt businesses, coalition members said during a virtual news conference. Members noted recent declines in COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths, and said they want decisions about returning to in-person office work left to businesses and their employees.

Rich Studley, CEO of the Michigan Chamber of Commerce, called the MIOSHA order "one of the most severe restrictions in the country in terms of directing employees to work from home."

"It is time to pivot to job creation and economic growth, and opening our economy safely," he said.

Veronica Horn, CEO of the Saginaw County Chamber of Commerce, said the prohibition on in-person office work is hurting businesses and "our downtowns and local governments are being crushed economically."

“Zoom is nice, but it simply doesn’t replace the need for in-person work in complex situations. I think we’ve all learned, it’s hard to innovate and collaborate from our kitchen tables," she said. “Our voices need to be heard now, because under the current rules, businesses are stagnating or going bankrupt, causing jobs to disappear — some forever.”

More:Whitmer: Michigan to relax restaurant, business COVID-19 restrictions starting Friday

More:Michigan Supreme Court strikes down Gov. Whitmer's emergency orders, effective immediately

The Detroit Regional Chamber is not a member of the coalition and didn't participate in the virtual news conference.

"That doesn’t preclude us from being a part of it at some point, but as it stands right now, that is an initiative that they have been spearheading," Chris Moyer, communications director for the Detroit Regional Chamber, told the Free Press on Thursday.

Asked whether the Detroit Regional Chamber has an opinion about extending the MIOSHA workplace restrictions, he said: "At this point, what we have signed onto is we are supportive of sensible restrictions. We believe that this is something that MIOSHA and the governor can take a very strong look at and start to find a way to get people back into offices safely.”

In response to the group's comments, a spokesman for Whitmer said in a statement that the health and safety of Michigan residents remains the governor's top priority. The statement did not say whether the governor wants any extension to the restrictions set to expire April 14.

"While countless Michiganders are already safely going to their place of employment, some jobs do not require in-person work, which is why (MIOSHA) asks employers in those sectors to allow their employees to work from home to maximize safety unless it is absolutely necessary for employees to be in the office," the statement said.

Sean Egan, director of Michigan COVID-19 Workplace Safety, said in a statement that the MIOSHA restrictions are not a hard prohibition against in-person work.

"Rather, they require employers to determine whether remote work for employees is feasible to help ensure that COVID-19 transmission is mitigated to the maximum extent possible," Egan said in the statement.

Earlier this week, Whitmer announced the formation of a work group under the Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity to advise the administration on how office workers can safely return to the office.

Members of the "Reopen" coalition expressed skepticism Thursday about that work group.

”It’s a way to maybe drag things out and come up with information we already know,” Horn said.

Ronald Hinrichs, CEO of the Southern Wayne County Regional Chamber, is one of the coalition's members and issued a statement against extending the in-person work restriction.

"Although we applaud the administration for their early and ongoing efforts to keep us all safe from COVID-19, the current remote work policy required for most of our state's visionaries, doers and community investors is having a lasting and detrimental impact that is disastrous to the livelihood, mental health, and ability for all to prosper and thrive," the statement said.

ContactJC Reindl at313-222-6631 or jcreindl@freepress.com. Follow him on Twitter @jcreindl. Read more on business and sign up for our business newsletter.

No Surprises Act has doctors pushing to delay medical billing changes

Nearly 1 in 5 hospital visits result in patients getting the unwelcome surprise of an unexpectedly large bill because doctors or other providers weren't part of their insurer's network.

To protect consumers, Congress passed the bipartisan No Surprises Act last December. But doctors and hospital groups are trying to delay its Jan. 1 rollout over a narrow but crucial portion they contend unfairly favors insurers.

On Thursday, the American Medical Association, American Hospital Association and individual hospitals and doctors sued the federal government to halt federal regulators’ proposed arbitration rules that would effectively end the most common forms of surprise billing.

The proposed rule unveiled by the Department of Health and Human Services and other federal agencies would give providers and insurers 30 days to hash out disagreements over payments or submit to binding arbitration to settle disputes. The lawsuit said regulators misinterpreted the law and proposed an “unfair and unlawful" arbitration system that starts with benchmark rates already negotiated by health insurers – the median, in-network rate for similar medical services.

The lawsuit contends insurers will rely on the arbitration rules to get an "unfairly low rate" and will have little incentive to include higher-cost providers in their network, "all to the detriment of patients."

"Our legal challenge urges regulators to ensure there is a fair and meaningful process to resolve disputes between health care providers and insurance companies," said AMA President Gerald E. Harmon.

More:'Really astonishing': Average cost of hospital ER visit surges 176% in a decade, report says

More:'Chilling effect on patients': Following backlash, insurance giant UnitedHealthcare delays policy to scrutinize ER claims

The lawsuit follows a flurry of public comments submitted by this week's deadline from both proponents and detractors of the proposed rules.

Also this week, a jury in Nevada decided UnitedHealthcare must pay affiliates of the emergency medicine staffing company TeamHealth $60 million in damages over the insurer’s payment practices.

CEO Leif Murphy said the jury’s decision "helped stop the bleeding in the middle of a pandemic" for TeamHealth, which supplies physicians for 12% of the nation’s hospital emergency rooms.

Murphy said his company filed several lawsuits against insurers across the country for payment disputes before Congress passed the surprise billing legislation. He said the cost of staffing doctors to take care of patients when they are in the emergency room or admitted to hospitals is becoming increasingly difficult to cover because of insurers' attempts to lower reimbursement. He worries that the new federal law could "shift the balance of power" to large insurers and embolden them to terminate higher-priced contracts to reduce the median price for services – which is the proposed starting point for arbitration.

“We're dealing with extremely high stress levels, lots of uncertainty on the front line, anticipation of COVID surge at any point," Murphy said. "And then you say we are not going to acknowledge the value of the service provided and we're going to cut pay? It's not a good situation.”

A UnitedHealthcare spokesperson said the insurer will appeal the Nevada case "in order to protect our customers and members from private equity-backed physician staffing companies who demand egregious and anticompetitive rates for their services and drive up the cost of care for everyone.”

'No one should have to worry about going bankrupt'

In November, an HHS report found 18% of emergency room visits by Americans with employer health insurance resulted in out-of-network charges. Patients having operations or giving birth at in-network hospitals had similar rates of out-of-network charges.

These unexpected charges averaged more than $1,200 from anesthesiologists and $2,600 from surgical assistants, according to the report.

“No one should have to worry about going bankrupt after falling ill or seeking critical care,” HHS Secretary Xavier Becerra said of the report.

The federal legislation has gained broad support among consumers, employers and insurers seeking to slow the growing cost of health care.

America’s Health Insurance Plans, the trade association for private insurers, said millions of consumers each year face financial hardship after getting medical bills from out-of-network providers.

The Biden administration's rules to implement the law "are a critical step toward ensuring that ... surprise medial bills are a relic of our past,” the trade association said in a statement.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated cost savings from lower medical bills would cut private insurance premiums 0.5 to 1% and would reduce federal deficits from savings for both employer plans and taxpayer-subsidized Affordable Care Act plans.

"Surprise billing has been a problem for decades," said Loren Adler, associate director of the USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy. "It has become more of a problem and more pronounced in the last decade or so."

The problem has worsened, Adler said, as private equity firms have acquired medical specialties such as anesthesiologists or emergency medicine staffing companies.

Hospitals often need coverage from these specialists whether or not they sign contracts with major private insurers. In cases where these specialists refuse to sign contract with insurers, they set their own rates. In some cases, consumers get billed for balances the insurer does not cover.

Even if consumers take the extra step of verifying a hospital or other medical facility is an in-network provider for their insurance plan, they often have no control over whether doctors and other providers at in-network hospitals are part of their insurer's network.

"The negotiating scales have been tilted in favor of doctors in this subset of specialties like emergency medicine and anesthesiology," Adler said.

Others say the federal law will bring long-overdue protections to patients.

“We have seen firsthand the devastating financial and emotional impact that happens to patients when they receive surprise medical bills,” said Nancy Brown, CEO of the American Heart Association.

Brown said consumers are especially vulnerable to such billing excesses during emergencies.

“They have a heart attack. They have a stroke. They have a sudden cardiac arrest,” Brown said. “At a moment like that (when) there's often no one around you, and if there is, the first thing on peoples’ minds isn't to say, ‘Are all of these providers in this patient's health insurance network?”

But critics of the arbitration rules say insurers will have the upper hand and will force doctors to accept lower rates. The American Society of Anesthesiologists said the rules are a "powerful mechanism for large health insurance companies to avoid negotiating on contracts and, ultimately, to extract financial concessions from local community physician practices."

The American Medical Association lawsuit said a North Carolina insurer already sent letters to some doctors demanding payment cuts, citing the new federal rules. If those doctors don't cut their rates, the insurer will terminate their contracts and leave patients with fewer options, the lawsuit states.

Staffing companies such as TeamHealth believe insurers will only accelerate contract terminations if the arbitration rules take effect Jan. 1.

"The outcome of that shifts the balance and does start to threaten our ability to staff," Murphy said.

Ken Alltucker is on Twitter at @kalltucker, or can be emailed at alltuck@usatoday.com

Debate transcript: Trump, Biden final presidential debate in Nashville

USA TODAY

Here is the full transcript of the final presidential debate between President Donald Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden, moderated by Kristen Welker in Nashville on Oct. 22, 2020. Headers have been added for ease of reading.

[0:00] Welker: A very good evening to both of you. This debate will cover six major topics. At the beginning of each section, each candidate will have two minutes, uninterrupted, to answer my first question. The debate commission will then turn on their microphone only when it is their turn to answer, and the commission will turn it off exactly when the two minutes have expired. After that, both microphones will remain on, but on behalf of the voters, I'm going to ask you to please speak one at a time. The goal is for you to hear each other and for the American people to hear every word of what you both have to say. And so with that, if you're ready, let's start.

And we will begin with the fight against the coronavirus. President Trump, the first question is for you. The country is heading into a dangerous new phase. More than 40,000 Americans are in the hospital tonight with COVID, including record numbers here in Tennessee. And since the two of you last shared a stage, 16,000 Americans have died from COVID. So please be specific: how would you leave the country during this next stage of the coronavirus crisis? Two minutes, uninterrupted.

Trump and Biden on COVID-19

[1:03] Trump: So, as you know, more 2.2 million people, modeled out, were expected to die. We closed up the greatest economy in the world in order to fight this horrible disease that came from China. It's a worldwide pandemic. It’s all over the world. You see the spikes in Europe and many other places right now. If you notice, the mortality rate is down, 85%. The excess mortality rate is way down, and much lower than almost any other country. And we're fighting it and we're fighting it hard. There is a spike. There was a spike in Florida, and it's now gone. There was a very big spike in Texas, it's now gone. There was a very big spike in Arizona, it's now gone. And there were some spikes and surges in other places. They will soon be gone. We have a vaccine that's coming, it's ready. It's going to be announced within weeks, and it's going to be delivered. We have Operation Warp Speed, which is the military, is going to distribute the vaccine. I can tell you from personal experience that I was in the hospital, I had it. And I got better and I will tell you that I had something that they gave me — a therapeutic, I guess they would call it. Some people could say it was a cure. But I was in for a short period of time and I got better very fast or I wouldn't be here tonight. And now they say I'm immune. Whether it's four months or a lifetime, nobody's been able to say that, but I'm immune. More and more people are getting better. We have a problem that's a worldwide problem. This is a worldwide problem, but I've been congratulated by the heads of many countries on what we've been able to do with the — if you take a look at what we've done in terms of goggles and masks and gowns and everything else, and in particular, ventilators. We're now making ventilators. All over the world, thousands and thousands a month, distributing them all over the world, it will go away and as I say, we're rounding the turn, we're rounding the corner, it's going away.

[3:05] Welker: OK, former Vice President Biden, to you, how would you lead the country out of this crisis? You have two minutes uninterrupted.

[3:12] Biden: 220,000 Americans dead. If you hear nothing else I say tonight, hear this. Anyone who's responsible for not taking control — in fact, not saying, I take no responsibility, initially — anyone who is responsible for that many deaths should not remain as President of the United States of America. We're in a situation where there are thousands of deaths a day, a thousand deaths a day. And there are over 70,000 new cases per day. Compared to what's going on in Europe, as the New England Medical Journal said, they're starting from a very low rate. We're starting from a very high rate. The expectation is we'll have another 200,000 Americans dead by the time, between now and the end of the year. If we just wore these masks — the President's own advisors told them — we could save 100,000 lives. And we're in a circumstance where the President, thus far, still has no plan. No comprehensive plan. What I would do is make sure we have everyone encouraged to wear a mask, all the time. I would make sure we move in the direction of rapid testing, investing in rapid testing. I would make sure that we set up national standards as to how to open up schools and open up businesses so they can be safe, and give them the wherewithal and financial resources to be able to do that. We're in a situation now where the New England Medical Journal — one of the serious, most serious journals in the whole world — said for the first time ever that this, the way this President has responded to this crisis has been absolutely tragic. And so folks, I will take care of this, I will end this, I will make sure we have a plan.

[5:00] Welker: President Trump, I'd like to follow up with you and your comments. You talked about taking a therapeutic. I assume you're referencing Regeneron. You also said a vaccine will be coming within weeks. Is that a guarantee?

[5:12] Trump: It is not a guarantee but it will be by the end of the year, but I think it has a good chance. One or two companies, I think, within a matter of weeks, and it will be distributed very quickly.

[5:21] Welker: Can you tell us what companies?

Trump: Johnson and Johnson is doing very well. Moderna is doing very well. Pfizer is doing very well, and we have numerous others. And then we also have others that we're working on very closely with other countries, in particular Europe.

[5:34] Welker: Let me follow up with you, and because this is new information — You have said a vaccine is coming soon, within weeks now. Your own officials say it could take well into 2021 at the earliest for enough Americans to get vaccinated, and even then they say the country will be wearing masks and distancing into 2022. Is your timeline realistic?

[5:52] Trump: No, I think my timeline is going to be more accurate. I don't know that they're counting on the military the way I do, but we have our generals lined up, one in particular, that's the head of logistics. And this is a very easy distribution for him. He's ready to go as soon as we have the vaccine, and we expect to have 100 million vials as soon as we have the vaccine, he's ready to go.

[6:12] Welker: Vice President Biden, your reaction? Just 40% of Americans say they would definitely agree to take a coronavirus vaccine if it was approved by the government. What steps would you take to give Americans confidence in a vaccine if it were approved?

[6:25] Biden: Make sure it's totally transparent. Have the scientific world see, know, look at it, go through all the processes. And by the way, this is the same fellow who told you this is going to end by Easter last time. This the same fellow who told you that, don't worry, we're going to end this by the summer. We're about to go into a dark winter, a dark winter, and he has no clear plan and there's no prospect that there's going to be a vaccine available for the majority of the American people before the middle of next year.

[6:53] Welker: President Trump, your reaction? He says you have no plan.

[6:55] Trump: I don’t think it’s going to be a dark winter at all. We're opening up our country. We've learned and studied and understand the disease, which we didn't know at the beginning. When I closed and banned China from coming in heavily infected, and then ultimately Europe, but China was in January — months later he was saying I was xenophobic, I did it too soon. Now he's saying, ‘Oh, I should have, I should have, you know, moved quicker.’ But he didn't move quicker; he was months behind me, many months behind me. And frankly, he ran the H1N1 swine flu, and it was a total disaster. Far less lethal. But it was a total disaster. Had that had this kind of numbers, 700,000 people would be dead right now, but it was a far less lethal disease. Look, his own person who ran that for him who, as you know was his chief of staff, said ‘It was catastrophic, it was horrible, we didn't know what we were doing.’ Now he comes up and he tells us how to do this. Also everything that he said about the way — every single move that he said we should make — that's what we've done, we've done all of it, but he was way behind us.

[8:09] Welker: Vice President Biden, your response?

[8:10] Biden: My responses is, he is xenophobic but not because he shut down access from China. And he did it late, after 40 countries had already done that. In addition to that, what he did, he made sure that we had 44 people that were in there, in China, trying to get to Wuhan to determine what exactly the source was. What did the President say in January? He said no, he said, this is — he's being transparent, the president of China is being transparent. We owe hkim a debt of gratitude. We have to thank him. And then what happened was, we started talking about using the Defense Act, to make sure we go out and get whatever is needed out there to protect people. And again, I go back to this, he had nothing. He did virtually nothing. And then he gets out of the hospital, and he talks about we're, this is, ‘Oh, don't worry. This is all going to be over soon.’ Come on, there's not another serious scientist in the world who thinks it’s going to be over soon.

[9:02] Welker: President Trump, your reaction?

[9:03] Trump: I did not say over soon. I say we're learning to live with it. We have no choice. We can't lock ourselves up in a basement like Joe does. He has the ability to lock himself up. I don’t know, he's obviously made a lot of money, someplace, but he has this thing about living in a basement. People can’t do that. By the way, I, as the president, couldn't do that. I'd love to put myself in the basement or in a beautiful room in the White House and go away for a year and a half until it disappears. I can't do that. And here’s — every, every meeting I had — every meeting I had — and I meet a lot of families, including Gold Star families and military families, every meeting I had — and I had to meet them, I had to, it would be horrible to have canceled everything. I said, you know, this is dangerous. And you catch it. And you know, I caught it. I learned a lot. I learned a lot, great doctors, great hospitals. And now, I recovered. 99.9 of young people recover. 99% of people recover. We have to recover. We can't close up our nation, we have to open our school, and we can't close up our nation, or you're not going to have a nation.

[10:09] Welker: And of course the CDC has said young people can get sick with COVID-19 and can pass it. Vice President Biden, I want to talk broadly about strategy, though.

[10:19] Biden: Can I respond to that?

[10:20] Welker: 30 seconds please, and then I have a question.

[10:22] Biden: Number one. He says that we're, you know, we're learning to live with it. People are learning to die with it. You folks home will have an empty chair at the kitchen table this morning. That man or wife going to bed tonight and reaching over to try to touch their, out of habit, where their wife or husband was, is gone. Learning to live with it? Come on. We're dying with it, because he's never said — he said it's dangerous. When's the last time? Is it really dangerous, still? Are we dangerous? Tell the people, is it dangerous now? What should they do about the danger? And you say, I take no responsibility.

[10:55] Welker: Let me talk about —

[10:56] Trump: Excuse me.

[10:57] Welker: Very quickly.

[10:58] Trump: I take full responsibility. It's not my fault that it came here. It's China's fault. You know what, it's not Joe's fault that it came here either. It's China's fault. They kept it from going into the rest of China, for the most part, but they didn't keep it from coming out to the world including Europe and ourselves

[11:15] Welker: Vice President Biden. as tracked is that when we knew was coming, when it hit.

[11:16] Biden: The fact is, when we knew it was coming, when it hit — What happened? What did the President say? He said don't worry, it's going to go away, it’s going to be gone by Easter. Don't worry, the warm weather. Don't worry, maybe inject bleach — he said he was kidding when he said that, but a lot of people thought it was serious. A whole range of things the President said. And even today, he thinks we are in control. We're about to lose 200,000 more people

[11:42] Welker: President Trump.

[11:43] Trump: Look, perhaps just to finish this, I was kidding on that but just to finish this. When I closed, he said, I shouldn't have closed. And that went on for months. What Nancy Pelosi said the same thing. She was dancing on the streets in Chinatown in San Francisco. But when I closed, he said, this is a terrible thing. You’re xenophobic. I think he called me racist, even, and because I was closing it to China. Now he says I should have closed it earlier. It just Joe, it doesn't —

[12:12] Biden: I didn't say either of those things.

[12:13] Trump: You certainly did.

[12:16] Biden: I talked about his xenophobia in a different context. It wasn't about closing the border to Chinese coming to the United States.

[12:23] Welker: All right, I want to talk about both of your different strategies to handling this.

[12:26] Trump: He thought I shouldn't have closed the border. That’s obvious.

[12:30] Welker: Do you wanna respond to that quickly, vice president?

[12:33] Biden: No.

[12:33] Welker: OK, let's talk about your different strategies toward dealing with this. Mr. Vice President, you suggested you would support new shutdowns if scientists recommended it. What do you say to Americans who are fearful that the cost of shutdowns, the impact on the economy, the higher rates of hunger depression, domestic and substance abuse, outweighs the risk of exposure to the virus?

[12:51] Biden: What I would say is I'm going to shut down the virus, not the country. It’s his ineptitude that caused the country to have to shut down in large part — why businesses have gone under, why schools are closed, why so many people have lost their living and why they're concerned. Those other concerns are real. That's why he should have been — instead of in a sand trap at his golf course — he should have been negotiating with Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the Democrats and Republicans about what to do about the acts they were passing for billions of dollars to make sure people had the capacity.

[13:21] Welker: You haven't ruled out more shutdowns

[13:24] Biden: Oh no, I'm not shutting down the nation but there are, look, they need standards. The standard is, if you have a reproduction rate in a community that's above a certain level, everybody says, slow up. More social distancing. Do not open bars and do not open gymnasiums. Do not open until you get this under control, under more control. But when you do open, give the people the capacity to be able to open and have the capacity to do it safely. For example schools — schools, they need a lot of money to open. They need to deal with ventilation systems, they need to deal with smaller classes, more teacher, more pods, and he's refused to support that money, or at least up to now

[14:03] Welker: Let's talk about schools. President Trump —

[14:05] Trump: Well, I think we have to respond, if I might.

[14:07] Welker: Please, and then I have a follow up.

[14:08] Trump: Thank you, and I appreciate that. Look, all he does is talk about shutdowns but forget about him. His democrat governors — Cuomo in New York, you look at what's going on in California, you look at Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Democrats, Democrats all — they are shut down so tight, and they're dying. They're dying. And he supports all these people. All he talks about is shutdowns No, we're not going to shut down, and we have to open our schools. And it's like, as an example, I have a young son. He also tested positive. By the time I spoke to the doctor, the second time, he was fine, it just went away. Young people, I guess it’s their immune system.

[14:46] Welker: Let me follow up, President Trump. You've demanded schools open in person and insisted they can do it safely. But just yesterday, Boston became the latest city to move its public school system entirely online after a coronavirus spike. What is your message to parents who worry that sending their children to school will endanger not only their kids, but also their teachers and families?

[15:04] Trump: I want to open the schools. The transmittal rate to the teachers is very small, but I want to open the schools. We have to open our country. We're not going to have a country. You can't do this, we can't keep this country closed. It is a massive country with a massive economy. People are losing their jobs, they're committing suicide. There's depression, alcohol, drugs at a level that nobody's ever seen before. There's abuse, tremendous abuse. We have to open our country. You know I've said it often — the cure cannot be worse than the problem itself, and that's what's happening, and he wants to close down. He'll close down the country if one person in our, in our massive bureaucracy says we should close it down.

[15:49] Welker: Vice President Biden, your —

[15:51] Biden: Simply not true. We're gonna be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. We ought to be able to safely open, but we need resources to open. You need to be able to, for example, if you're gonna open a business, have social distancing within the business. You need to have, if you have a restaurant, you need to have plexiglass dividers so people cannot infect one another. You need to be in a position where you can take testing rapidly and know whether a person is, in fact, infected. You need to be able to trace. You need to be able to provide all the resources that are needed to do this and that is not inconsistent with saying that we're going to make sure that we open safely. And by the way, all you teachers out there — not that many of you are going to die, so don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Come on.

[16:37] Welker: President Trump, let me follow up with you quickly.

[16:39] Trump: I will say this, if you go and look at what's happened to New York, ut's a ghost town. It's a ghost town. And when you talk about plexiglas — these are restaurants that are dying. These are businesses with no money. Putting the plexiglas is unbelievably expensive, and it's not the answer. I mean, you're going to sit there in a cubicle wrapped around with plastic? These are businesses that are dying, Joe, you can't do that to people, which again, take a look at New York and what's happened to my wonderful city. For so many years, I loved it. It was vibrant. It's dying. Everyone's leaving New York.

[17:34] Welker: Vice President.

[17:34] Biden: Take a look what New York has done in terms of turning the curve down, in terms of the number of people dying. And I don't look at this in terms of what he does, blue states and red states. They’re all the United States. And look at the states that are having such a spike in the coronavirus. They’re the red states. They are the states in the Midwest, they are the states in the upper Midwest, that's where the spike is occurring significantly, but they're all Americans. They're all Americans and what we have to do is say, wear these masks, number one, make sure we get the help that the businesses need. The money's already been passed to do that. It's been out there since the beginning of this summer and nothing's happened.

Trump: New York has lost more than 40,000 people. 11,000 people in nursing.

[18:00] Welker: President Trump, what about —

[18:02] Trump: When you say spike, take a look at what's happening in Pennsylvania, where they've had it closed. Take a look at what's happening with your friend in Michigan, where her husband's the only one allowed to do anything. It's been like a prison. Now it was just ruled unconstitutional. Take a look at North Carolina. They're having spikes and they've been closed, and they're getting killed financially. We can't let that happen, Joe, you can't let that happen. We have to open up and we understand that disease, we have to protect our seniors, we have to protect our elderly, we have to protect, especially, our seniors with heart problems and diabetes problems, and we will protect them. We have the best testing in the world by far. That's why we have so many cases.

[18:42] Welker: Let me follow up with you before we move on to our next section. President Trump, this week you called Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's best known infectious disease expert, “a disaster.” You described him and other medical experts as “idiots.” If you're not listening to them, who are you listening to?

[18:58] Trump: I'm listening to all of them, including Anthony. I get along very well with Anthony. But he did say, ‘don't wear masks.’ He did say, as you know, ‘this is not going to be a problem.’ I think he's a Democrat, but that's okay. He said, ‘this is not going to be a problem. We are not going to have a problem at all.’ When Joe says that, I said — Anthony Fauci said and others and many others. And I'm not knocking him. Nobody knew. Look, nobody knew what this thing was, nobody knew where it was coming from, what it was. We've learned a lot, but Anthony said, ‘don't wear masks.’ Now he wants to wear masks. Anthony also said, if you look back, exact words, here’s his exact words: ‘This is no problem, this is going to go away soon.’ So he's allowed to make mistakes, he happens to be a good person.

[19:43] Welker: Vice President Biden, your response, quickly and then we're going to move on to the next section.

[19:45] Biden: My response is think about what the President knew in January and didn't tell the American people. He was told this was a serious virus that spread in the air, and it was much worse than — much worse — than the flu. He went on record and said to one of your colleagues, recorded, that in fact he knew how dangerous it was but he didn't want to tell us, didn't want to tell us because he didn't want us to panic. He didn't want us — Americans don't panic. He panicked. Well, guess what, in the meantime, we find out in the New York Times the other day that in fact, his folks went to Wall Street and said, ‘this is a really dangerous thing,’ and a memo out of that meeting — not from his administration, but from some of the brokers — had said, ‘sell short, because we gotta get moving. It's a dangerous problem.’

[20:30] Trump: Well this is —

[20:31] Welker: I’m going to give you 30 seconds to respond and then we're gonna move on.

[20:33] Trump: I don't know if somebody went to Wall Street. You're the one that takes all the money from Wall Street. I don't take it. You have raised a lot of money, tremendous amounts of money. And every time you raise money, deals are made. I could raise so much more money. As president and as somebody that knows most of those people, I could call the heads of Wall Street, the heads of every company in America, I would blow away every record. But I don't want to do that because it puts me in a bad position. And then you bring up Wall Street? You shouldn't be bringing up Wall Street. Because you're the one that takes the money from Wall Street, not me. I could blow away your records like you wouldn't believe. We don't need money. We have plenty of money. In fact, we beat Hillary Clinton with a tiny fraction of the money that she was able to get. Don’t tell me about wall street.

[21:15] Welker: All right, gentlemen, we're gonna move on.

[21:17] Biden: Average contribution, $43.

On national security

[21:18] Welker: All right, we're gonna move on to our next section which is national security. And I do want to start with the security of our elections and some breaking news from overnight. Just last night, top intelligence officials confirmed again that both Russia and Iran are working to influence this election. Both countries have obtained U.S. voter registration information, these officials say, and Iran sent intimidating messages to Florida voters. This question goes to you, Mr. Vice President, what would you do to put an end to this threat? You have two minutes, uninterrupted.

[21:48] Biden: I made it clear. And I asked everyone else to take the pledge. I made it clear that any country, no matter who it is, that interferes in American elections will pay a price. They will pay the price. It has been overwhelmingly clear in this election — I won't even get into the last one — this election, that Russia has been involved. China has been involved to some degree, and now we learned that, that Iran is involved. They will pay a price if I'm elected. Interfering with American sovereignty. That's what's going on right now. They're interfering with American sovereignty. And to the best of my knowledge, I don't think the President said anything to Putin about it. I don't think he's talking a lot. I don't think he said a word. I don't know why he hasn't said a word to Putin about it. And I don't know what he has recently said, if anything, to the Iranians. My guess is he’d probably be more outspoken with regard to the Iranians. But the point is this, folks. We are in a situation where we have foreign countries trying to interfere in the outcome of our election. His own national security advisor told him that what is happening with his buddy — well, I won't, I shouldn't — I will — his buddy Rudy Giuliani. He's being used as a Russian pawn. He's being fed information that is Russian, that is not true. And then what happens? Nothing happens. And then you find out that everything is going on here about Russia is wanting to make sure that I do not get elected the next President of the United States because they know I know them, and they know me. I don't understand why this President is unwilling to take on Putin when he's actually paying bounties to kill American soldiers in Afghanistan, when he's engaged in activities that are trying to destabilize all of NATO. I don't know why he doesn't do it but it's worth asking the question. Why isn't that being done? Any country that interferes with us will, in fact, pay a price because they're affecting our sovereignty.

[23:45] Welker: President Trump, same question to you. Let me, let me ask the question. You're gonna have two minutes to respond for two elections in a row now there has been substantial interference from foreign adversaries. What would you do in your next term to put an end to this? Two minutes, uninterrupted.

[23:56] Trump: Well, let me respond to the first part, as Joe answered. Joe got three and a half million dollars from Russia. And it came through Putin, because he was very friendly with the former mayor of Moscow and it was the mayor of Moscow’s wife. He got three and a half million dollars. Your family got three and a half million dollars and you know someday, you're gonna have to explain — why did you get three and a half? I never got any money from Russia. I don't get money from Russia. Now, about your thing last night, I knew all about that, and through John — who is John Radcliffe, who is a fantastic DNI — he said, the one thing that's common to both of them, they both want you to lose. Because there has been nobody tougher to Russia. Between the sanctions, nobody tougher than me on Russia. Between the sanctions between all of what I've done with NATO. You know, I've got the NATO countries to put up an extra 130 billion, going to $420 billion a year, that's to guard against Russia. I sold — while he was selling pillows and sheets — I sold tank busters to Ukraine. There has been nobody tougher on Russia than Donald Trump. And I'll tell you, they were so bad. They took over the, the submarine port. You remember that very well during your term, during you and Barack Obama. They took over a big part of what should have been Ukraine. You handed it to them. But you were getting a lot of money from Russia. They were paying you a lot of money and they probably still are, but now, with what came out today, it's even worse. All of the emails, the emails are horrible. The emails of the kind of money that you were raking in, you and your family. And Joe, you were vice president when some of this was happening. And it should have never happened. And I think you owe an explanation to the American people. Why is it, somebody just had a news conference a little while ago, who was essentially supposed to work with you and your family, but what he said was damning. And regardless of me, I think you have to clean it up and talk to the American people. Maybe you can do it right now.

[26:01] Welker: Vice President Biden, you may respond to follow up on the election security.

[26:06] Biden: I have not taken a penny from any foreign source ever in my life. We learn that this President paid 50 times the tax in China, as a secret bank account with China, does business in China, and in fact, is talking about me taking money? I have not taken a single penny from any country whatsoever, ever, number one. Number two, this is a president — I have released all of my tax returns. 22 years. Go look at them. 22 years of my tax return. You have not released a single solitary year of your tax return. What are you hiding? Why are you unwilling? The foreign countries are paying you a lot. Russia is paying you a lot. China is paying a lot. And your hotels and all your businesses all around the country, all around the world. And China's building a new road to a new gas… a golf course you have overseas. So what's going on here? Why don't you release your tax return or stop talking about corruption?

[27:04]Welker: President Trump, your response.

[27:06] Trump: First of all, I called my accounts — under audit. I'm going to release them as soon as we can. I want to do it, and it will show how successful, how great this company is. But much more importantly than that, people were saying $750. I asked them a week ago, I said, what did I pay? They said, sir, you pre-paid tens of millions of dollars. I prepaid my tax. Tens. Over the last number of years. Tens of millions of dollars, I prepaid, because at some point, they think, it's an estimate. They think I may have to pay tax. So, I already prepaid it. Nobody told me that.

[27:42] Welker: Did your accountant tell you —

[27:44] Trump: Excuse me. And it wasn't written whenever they write this. They keep talking about $750, which I think is a filing fee. But let me just tell you, I prepaid millions and millions of dollars in taxes, number one. Number two, I don't make money from China, you do. I don't make money from Ukraine, you do. I don't make money from Russia. You made three and a half million dollars, Joe, and your son gave you. They even have a statement that we have to give 10% to the big man. You're the big man, I think. I don't know, maybe you're not. But you're the big man, I think. You son said that we have to give 10% to the big man. Joe, what's that all about? It's terrible.

[28:22] Welker: All right, gentlemen, I want to ask you both some questions about all of this. I'm gonna let you both respond, very quickly. You just said you spoke to your accountant about potentially releasing your taxes. Did he tell you when you can release them? Do you have a deadline for when you're going to release them to the American people?

[28:35] Trump: I get treated worse than the Tea Party got treated. A lot of people in there, deep down in the IRS, they treat me horribly. We made a deal, it was all settled, until I decided to run for president. I get treated very badly by the IRS, very unfairly, but we had a deal all done. As soon as we're completed with the deal, I want to release it. But I have paid millions and millions of dollars. And it's worse than paying. I paid in advance. It's called prepaying your taxes. I paid.

[29:04] Welker: I want to ask you both about questions regarding your potential foreign entanglements and questions that have been raised to give you both a chance to talk about this more broadly.

[29:12] Biden: At some point I want to respond.

[29:13] Welker: Respond very quickly, and then I'll get to my question.

[29:15] Biden: Why do he — He's been saying this for four years. Show us. Just show us. Stop playing around. You’ve been saying for four years you’re going to release your taxes. Nobody knows, Mr. President, they do know is you're not paying your taxes or you're paying taxes that are so low. When last time he said what he paid, he said, ‘I only pay that little because I'm smart. I know how to game the system.’ Come on, come on, folks.

[29:42] Welker: Quickly, President Trump, and then I want to get to two questions to both of you.

[29:46] Trump: I was put through a phony witch hunt for three years. It started before I even got elected. They spied on my campaign. No president should ever have to go through what I went through. Let me just say this. Mueller and 18 angry Democrats, and FBI agents all over the place spent, $48 million. They went through everything I had, including my tax returns, and they found absolutely no collusion and nothing wrong. $48 million. I guarantee you, if I spent 1 million on you Joe, I could find plenty wrong, because the kind of things that you've done and the kind of monies that your family has taken — I mean, your brother made money in Iraq, millions of dollars. Your other brother made a fortune, and it's all through you, Joe. And they say you get some of it. And you do live very well. You have houses all over the place. You live very well.

[30:41] Welker: All right, gentlemen, let me just ask some questions about all of this broadly. Vice President Biden, there have been questions about the work your son has done in China, and for Ukrainian energy company when you were Vice President. In retrospect, was anything about those relationships inappropriate or unethical?

[30:56] Biden: Nothing was unethical. Here's what the deal. With regard to Ukraine, we had this whole question about whether or not, because he was on the board, I later learned, of Burisma, a company, that somehow I had done something wrong. Yet every single solitary person, when he was going through his impeachment, testifying under oath who worked for him, said I did my job impeccably. I carried out US policy. Not one, single, solitary thing was out of line. Not a single thing, number one. Number two, the guy who got in trouble in Ukraine was this guy, trying to bribe the Ukrainian government to say something negative about me, which they would not do, and did not do, because it never, ever, ever happened. My son has not made money in terms of this thing about — what are you talking about — China. I have not had it. The only guy that made money from China is this guy. He’s the only one. Nobody else has made money from China.

[31:58] Welker: Let me ask my question to you.

[32:00] Trump: Could I just — one thing.

[32:01] Welker: Very quickly.

[32:02] Trump: His son didn't have a job for a long time, was sadly no longer in the military service, I won't get into that. And he didn't have a job. As soon as he became vice president, Burisma — not the best, not the best reputation in the world — I hear they paid him 183,000 a month. Listen to this, 183, and they gave him a $3 million upfront payment, and he had no energy experience. That’s 100% dishonest.

[32:27] Welker: I’m going to let the vice president respond to that quickly and then I have a question for you.

[32:31] Biden: No basis for that. Everybody investigated that, no one said anything he did was wrong in Ukraine.

[32:35] Welker: OK, President Trump, this is for you. Since you took office, you've never divested from your business. You've personally promoted your properties abroad. A report this week, which was referenced, does indicate that your company has a bank account in China. So how can voters know that you don't have any foreign conflicts of interest?

[32:52] Trump: I have many bank accounts and they're all listed and they're all over the place. I mean, I was a businessman doing business. The bank account you're referring to — which is, everybody knows about it, it's listed — the bank account was in 2013. That's what it was. It was opened. It was closed in 2015, I believe, and then I decided, because I was going to do, I was thinking about doing a deal in China, like millions of other people, I was thinking about it. And I decided I'm not going to do it, didn't like it, I decided not to do it, had an account open and I closed it.

[32:26] Welker: OK.

[32:27] Trump: Excuse me, and then unlike him, where he's Vice President, and he does business, I then decided to run for president after that. That was before. So I closed it before I even ran for president, let alone became president, big difference. He is the Vice President of the United States, and his son, his brother and his other brother are getting rich, they're like a vacuum cleaner, there's something —

[33:54] Welker: We do need to move on. I do want to ask you, Vice President Biden, about China. Let's talk about China more broadly. There have, of course, President Trump has said that they should pay for not being fully transparent in regards to the coronavirus. If you were president, would you make China pay and please be specific, what would that look like?

Biden: What I’d make China do is play by the international rules, not like he has done. He has caused the deficit in China to go up not down — with China, go up not down. We are making sure that in order to do business in China, you have to give all your intellectual property. You have to get/have a partner in China, it is 51%. We would not do that at all, number one. Number two, we're in a situation where China would have to play by the rules internationally as well. When I met with Xi, and when I was still vice president, he said ‘we're setting up air identification zones in the South China Sea, you can't fly through them.’ I said, ‘we're gonna fly through them. We just flew B52/B1 bombers through it. We're not going to pay attention.’ They have to play by the rules, and what's he do? He embraces guys like the thugs like in North Korea, and, and, and the Chinese president and Putin and others, and he pokes his finger in the eye of all our friends, all of our allies. We make up only — we’ re 25%. 25% of the world's economy. We need to be having the rest of our friends with us, saying to China, these are the rules. You play by them or you're going to pay the price for not paying by them, economically. That's the way I will run it. And that's what we did and upholding steel tariffs and a range of other things when we were president and vice president.

[35:33] Welker: All right, let's talk about North Korea.

[35:35] Trump: Excuse me, no, I have to respond to this.

[35:37] Welker: OK, very quickly and then we're gonna have...

[35:39] Trump: His son walked out with a billion and a half dollars from China —

[35:41] Biden: Not true.

[35:42] Trump: — after spending 10 minutes in office and being an Air Force Two, number one. Number two, there's a very strong email, talking about your family wanting to make $10 million a year for introductions.

[35:56] Biden: That is not true.

[35:56] Welker: President Trump, on China policy, though. What are you gonna do? What specifically are you going to do to make China pay?

[36:03] Trump: First of all, China is paying. They’re paying billions and billions of dollars. I just gave $28 billion.

[36:07] Welker: Through sanctions?

[36:08] Trump: I just gave $28 billion to our farmers.

[36:12] Biden: Taxpayers money.

[36:14] Trump: It’s what?

[36:15] Biden: Taxpayers money.

[36:16] Trump: No, the taxpayers. It's called China.

[36:20] Biden: Not true.

[36:20] Trump: China pays for $28 billion and you know what they did to pay it, Joe? They devalued their currency and they also paid up, and you know who got the money? Our farmers. Our great farmers, because they would target it. You never charge them anything. Also, I charged them 25% on dumped steel, because they were killing our steel industry. We were not going to have a steel, and now we have a steel industry

[36:42] Welker: OK, Vice President Biden, your response, please?

[36:49] Biden: This isn't about me. There's a reason why he's bringing up all this malarkey. There's a reason for it. He doesn't want to talk about the substantive issues. It's not about his family and my family. It's about your family, and your family's hurting badly. If you're making less than, if you're a middle class family, you're getting hurt badly right now. You're sitting at the kitchen table this morning deciding, well, we can't get new tires, they’re bald, because we have to wait another month. Or, so are we going to be able to pay the mortgage? Who's going to tell her, she can't go back to community college? They're the decisions you're making in the middle class families like I grew up in Scranton and Claymot. They're in trouble. We should be talking about your families but that's the last thing he wants to talk about.

[37:26] Welker: I wanted to say, I want to tell —

[37:28] Trump: That is a typical statement. Just 10 seconds, please.

[37:29] Welker: 10 seconds Mr President, 10 seconds.

[37:31] Trump: Just a typical political statement. Let's get off this China thing, and then he looks — the family, around the table, everything. Just a typical politician when I see that.

[37:40] Welker: All right, let’s talk —

[37:40] Trump: I’m not a typical politician, that’s why I got elected.

[37:44] Welker: Let’s talk about —

[37:44] Trump: Let’s get off the subject of China, let's talk around sitting around the table. Come on, Joe, you can do better.

[37:48] Welker: We're gonna talk about North Korea now. President Trump, you've met with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un's three times. You've talked about your beautiful letters with him, you've touted the fact that there hasn't been a war or a long range missile test, and yet North Korea recently rolled out its biggest ever intercontinental ballistic missile and continues to develop its nuclear arsenal. Do you see that as a betrayal of the relationship? Just 30 seconds here because we need to get on to the next topic.

[38:12] Trump: When I met with Barack Obama, we sat in the White House, right at the beginning had a great conversation, was supposed to be 15 minutes and it was well over an hour. He said the biggest problem we have is North Korea. He indicated we will be in a war with North Korea. Guess what, it would be a nuclear war, and he does have plenty of nuclear capability. In the meantime, I have a very good relationship with him, different kind of a guy but he probably thinks the same thing about me. We have a different kind of relationship. We have a very good relationship, and there's no war. And you know, about two months ago, he broke into a certain area. They said, ‘oh there's going to be trouble.’ I said, ‘No, they're not. Because he's not going to do that.’ And I was right. :ook, instead of being in a war where millions of people — Seoul, you know, is 25 miles away, millions and millions, 32 million people in Seoul — millions of people would be dead right now. We don’t have a war, and I have a good relationship.

[39:05] Welker: Vice President Biden, North Korea conducted four nuclear tests under the Obama administration. Why do you think you would be able to rein in this persistent threat?

[39:15] Biden: Because I'd make it clear, which we were making clear to China, they had to be part of the deal, because here's the root. I made it clear, as a spokesperson for the administration when I went to China, they said, ‘Why are you moving your missile defense up so close? Why are you moving more forces? Why are you continuing to do military maneuvers with South Korea?’ I said, ‘Because North Korea is a problem. And we're going to continue to do it so we can control them. We're going to make sure we can control them and make sure they can not hurt us. And so if you want to do something about it, step up. And help if not, it's going to continue.’ What has he done? He's legitimized North Korea, he's talked about his good buddy who's a thug, a thug, and he talks about how we're better off, and they have much more capable missiles, able to reach U.S. territory, much more easily than ever did before.

[40:05] Welker: Let me follow up with you, Vice President Biden, you've said you wouldn't meet with Kim Jong Un without preconditions. Are there any conditions under which you would meet with him?

[40:12] Biden: On the condition that he would agree that he would be drawing down his nuclear capacity to get there. The Korean Peninsula should be a nuclear free zone.

[40:21] Welker: All right, let's move on to American families.

[40:24] Trump: Kristen, they tried to meet with him.

[40:24] Welker: Very quickly. 10 seconds, President Trump.

Trump: They tried to meet with him, he wouldn’t do it. He didn’t like Obama. He didn’t like him. He wouldn’t do it.

[40:32] Welker: OK, I’ve got to give him a chance to respond.

[40:33] Trump: They tried, he wouldn’t do it. And that’s okay. You know what, North Korea, we’re not in a war. We have a good relationship. You know, people don’t understand — having a good relationship with leaders of other countries is a good thing.

[40:43] Welker: President Trump, we have to move on. We have a lot of questions to get through.

[40:43] Biden: We had a good relationship with Hitler before he in fact invaded Europe, the rest of Europe. Come on. The reason he would not meet with President Obama is because President Obama said we’re gonna talk about denuclearization, we’re not gonna legitimize you, we’re gonna continue to put stronger and stronger sanctions on you. That’s why he wouldn’t meet with us.

[41:10] Trump: And it didn’t happen.

[41:12] Welker: Let’s move on and talk about American families.

[41:14] Trump: Excuse me, he left me a mess, Kristen. They left me a mess. North Korea was a mess.

[41:18] Welker: We need to move on so that we have time to get to all our questions tonight, President Trump.

[41:22] Trump: Remember the first two or three months. There was a very dangerous period in my first three months, before we sort of worked things out a little bit. They left us a mess, and Obama would be – I think, the first to say — it was the single biggest problem, he thought, that our country had.

On the economy

[41:47] Welker: All right, let's move on to American families and the economy. One of the issues that's most important to them is health care, as you both know. Today, there was a key vote on a new Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett, and healthcare is at the center of her confirmation fight. Over 20 million Americans get their health insurance through the Affordable Care Act. It's headed to the Supreme Court, and your administration, Mr. President, is advocating for the court to overturn it. If the supreme court does overturn that law, those 20 million Americans could lose their health insurance almost overnight. So what would you do if those people have their health insurance taken away? You have two minutes uninterrupted.

Trump: First of all, I've already done something that nobody thought was possible. Through the legislature, I terminated the individual mandate. That is the worst part of Obamacare, as we call it. The individual mandate -- we have to pay a fortune for the privilege of not having to pay for bad health insurance. I terminate it; it's gone. Now it's in court, because Obamacare is no good. But then I made a decision, ‘Run it as well as you can’ -- to my people, great people -- ‘Run it as well as you can.’ I could have gone the other route and made everybody very unhappy. They ran it. Premiums are down, everything's down. Here's the problem. No matter how well you run it, it's no good. What we'd like to do is terminate it. We have the individual mandate done. I don't know that it's going to work. If we don't win, we will have to run it and we'll have Obamacare, but it will be better run. But it no longer is Obamacare. Because without the individual mandate, it is much different. Pre-existing conditions will always stay. What I would like to do is a much better health care, much better. We’ll always protect people with pre existing -- so I'd like to terminate Obamacare, come up with a brand new beautiful health care. The Democrats will do it because there'll be tremendous pressure on them. And we might even have the House at that time. And I think we're going to win the House, okay? You'll see, but I think we're gonna win the House. But come up with a better health care, always protecting people with pre existing conditions -- and one thing very important. We have 180 million people out there that have great private health care, far more than we're talking about with Obamacare. Joe Biden is going to terminate all of those policies. These are people that love the health care, people that have been successful -- middle income people -- been successful. They have 180 million plans, 180 million people, families under what he wants to do, which will basically be socialized medicine. He won't even have a choice. They want to terminate 180 million plans. We have done an incredible job with health care. And we're going to do even better.

45:12 Welker: OK. Vice President Biden, yes, this is for you. Your health care plan calls for building on Obamacare. So my question is, what is your plan if the law is ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court? You have two minutes uninterrupted.

Biden: What I'm going to do is pass Obamacare with a public option -- become Bidencare. Public option is an option that says that if you, in fact, do not have the wherewithal to be -- if you qualify for Medicaid, and you do not have the wherewithal in your state to get Medicaid, you automatically are enrolled, providing competition for insurance companies. That's what's going to happen. Secondly, we're going to make sure we reduce the premiums and reduce drug prices by making sure that there's competition that doesn't exist now by allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices with the insurance companies. Thirdly, the idea that I want to eliminate private insurance -- the reason why I had such a fight for, with 20 candidates for the nomination, was I support private insurance. That's why I did not -- not one single person, private insurance, would lose their insurance under my plan, nor did they under Obamacare. They did not lose their insurance, unless they chose they wanted to go to something else. Lastly, we're going to make sure we're in a situation that we've actually protect pre existing -- there's no way he can protect pre existing conditions. None, zero, you can't do it in the ether. He's been talking about this for a long time. There is no -- he's never come up with a plan. I guess we're gonna get the pre existing condition plan the same time we get the infrastructure plan that we waited since 17, 18, 19, 20. The fact that -- I still have a little, a few more minutes, I know you're getting anxious -- the fact is that he’s already cost the American people because of his terrible handling of the COVID virus and economic spillover. 10 million people have lost their private insurance, and he wants to take away 22 million more people who have been under Obamacare, and over 110 million people with pre existing conditions. And all the people from COVID are going to have pre existing conditions. What are they going to do?

47:20 Welker: I have a follow up for you, Vice President Biden, it relates to something that President Trump said. He's accusing you of wanting socialized medicine. What do you say to people who have concerns that your health care plan, which includes a government insurance option, takes the country one step closer to a health care system run entirely by the government?

Biden: What he’s saying, it's ridiculous. It’s like saying that, you know, we're the idea that, the fact that there's a public option that people can choose, that makes the socialist plan? Look, the difference between the president -- I think health care is not a privilege, it's a right. Everyone should have the right to have affordable health care. And I am very proud of my plan. It's gotten endorsed by all the major labor unions as well as, as well as a whole range of other people who in fact, are concerned in the medical field. This is something that's going to save people's lives. And this is going to give some people an opportunity, an opportunity to have health care for their children, how many of you home are worried and rolling around in bed at night wondering what in God's name are you going to do if you get sick? Because you've lost your home insurance, your health insurance, your company's gone under. We have to provide health insurance for people at an affordable rate, and that's what I do.

Welker: President Trump, your response.

Trump: Excuse me, he was there for 47 years -- he didn't do it. He was now there as Vice President for eight years. And it's not like it was 25 years ago, it was three and three quarters. It was just a little while ago, right? Less than four years ago. He didn't do anything. He didn't do it. He wants socialized medicine. And it's not that he wants it, his vice president -- I mean, she is more liberal than Bernie Sanders and wants it even more, Bernie Sanders wants it, the Democrats want it. You're going to have socialized medicine. Just like you went on with fracking -- ‘We're not going to have fracking, we're going to stop fracking, we're going to stop fracking.’ Then he goes to Pennsylvania after he gets the nomination -- well he got very lucky to get it. And he goes to Pennsylvania, and he says, ‘Oh, we're gonna have fracking.’ And you never asked a question. And by the way, so far, I respect very much the way you're handling this, I have to say. But by the way, somebody should ask the question. He goes for a year --

49:24 Welker: We do have a number of -- we have a number of topics.

Trump: No, no, but that's a question --

Welker: We're gonna get to it --

Trump: It’s the same thing with socialized medicine.

Welker: Vice President, your response.

Biden: My response is people deserve to have affordable health care -- period. Period, period, period. And the Bidencare proposal will, in fact, provide for that affordable health care, lower premiums. What we're going to do is going to cost some money; it's going to cost over $750 billion over 10 years to do it. And they're going to have lower premiums, you can buy into the better plans, the cheaper plans, lower your premiums, deal with unexpected billing, and have your drug prices drop significantly. He keeps talking about it. He hasn't done a thing for anybody on health care, not a thing.

Trump: Kristen, when he says --

Welker: Very quickly, then I want to talk about what’s happening on Capitol Hill

50:08 Trump: When he says public health option, he is talking about socialized medicine and health care. When he talks about a public option, he's talking about destroying your Medicare, totally destroying -- he’s destroying your Social Security. And this whole country will come down. You know, Bernie Sanders tried it in his state. His governor was a very liberal governor, they wanted to make it work --

Welker: Let's see if --

50:31 Trump: -- it was impossible --

Welker: Vice President Biden, your response.

50:34 Biden: He thinks he's running against someone else. He's running against Joe Biden. I beat all those other people because I disagreed with them. Joe Biden, he's running against. And the idea that we're in a situation and want to destroy Medicare -- this is the guy that the actuary of Medicare said, ‘If in fact’ -- and, social security -- ‘If, in fact, he continues to withhold his plan to withhold the tax on Social Security, Social Security will be bankrupt by 2023, with no way to pay for it. This is a guy who's tried to cut Medicare. So I don't know. I mean, the idea that Donald Trump is lecturing me on Social Security and Medicare? Come on.

Trump: He tried to get rid of --

Welker: Vice Presiden, Mr. President, I’m going to have to go on to another question --

Trump: -- he tried to hurt Social Security years ago, years ago. Go back and look at the records. He tried to hurt Social Security you've got --

51:28 Welker: All right, let’s move on to the next question.

51:31 Trump: They say the stock market will rule if I'm elected. If he's elected, the stock market will crash.

Welker: OK, let's move on to the next question.

Biden: May I respond?

Welker: Very quickly.

51:40 Biden: The idea that the stock market is booming is his only measure of what's happening. Where I come from, in Scranton and Claymont, the people don't live off of the stock market. Just in the last three, three years during this crisis, the billionaires in this country made, according to the Wall Street, $700 billion more dollars. $700 billion more dollars. Because that's his only measure. What happens to the ordinary people out there? What happens to them?

52:11 Trump: 401k’s are through the roof. 401k --

Welker: All right, let’s move on.

52:14 Trump: -- are through the roof. And he doesn't come from Scranton. That's like, what -- he lived there for a short period of time before he even knew --

Welker: We're gonna move on --

Trump: And he left. And the people of Pennsylvania will tell you that.

Welker: -- to my next question, gentlemen. As of tonight, more than 12 million people are out of work. And as of tonight, 8 million more homes have fallen into poverty, and more families are going hungry every day. Those hit hardest are women and people of color. They see Washington fighting over a relief bill. Mr. President, why haven't you been able to get them the help they need? 30 seconds here.

Trump: Because Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to approve it. I do.

Welker: But you're the president.

Trump: I do. But I still have to get, unfortunate -- that's one of the reasons I think we're going to take over the House, because of her. Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to approve anything. She'd love to have some victories on a date called November 3. Nancy Pelosi does not want to approve it. We are ready, willing and able to do something. Don't forget, we've already approved three plans. And it's gone through, including the Democrats, in all fairness. This one she doesn't want. It's near the election, because she thinks it helps her politically. I think it hurts her politically.

Welker: All right, Mr. Vice President --

Biden: You know, the Republican leader in the United States Senate said he can't -- he will not pass it. He does not have Republican votes. Why isn’t he talking to his Republican friends?

Welker: Let me follow up with you, Vice President

Trump: If we made a deal, we’d have --

53:32 Welker: Let me ask Vice President Biden the question. You are the leader of the Democratic Party. Why have you not [] Democrats to get a deal for the American people?

Biden: Well, I have and they have pushed it. Look, they passed this act all the way back in the beginning of the summer. This is like -- it's not new. It's been out there. The HEROES Act has been sitting there. And look at what's happening. When I was in charge of the Recovery Act with $800 billion, I was able to get $145 billion to local communities that have to balance their budget to states that have to balance their budgets, so then they have to fire fire -- they have to fire firefighters, teachers, first responders, law enforcement officers, so they can keep their cities and counties running. He will not support that. They have not done a thing for them. And Mitch McConnell said, ‘Let him go bankrupt. Let him go bankrupt.’ Come on. What's the matter with these --

Trump: The bill that was passed in the House was a bailout of badly run high crime, Democrat, all run by Democrats, cities and states. It was a way of getting a lot of money, billions and billions of dollars to these cities. It was also a way of getting a lot of money from our people's pockets to people that come into our country illegally. We were going to take care of everything for them. And what that does, and I'd love to do that, I'd love to help them. But what that does, everybody all over the world will start pouring into our country. We can't do it. This was a way of taking care of them. This was a way of sending them things that had nothing to do with COVID, as for your question, but it was really a big bailout for badly run Democrat cities and states.

Welker: I want --

Biden: All right, if I get elected, I'm not gonna -- I'm running as a proud Democrat, but I'm gonna be an American president. I don't see red states and blue states. What I see is American United States. And folks, every single state out there finds themselves in trouble. They're going to start laying off, whether they're red or blue. Cops, firefighters, first responders, teachers -- because they have to balance their budget. And the founders were smart. They allowed the federal government to deficit spend to compensate for the United States of America.

Welker: I want to talk about the minimum wage, gentlemen. Mr. Vice President, we are talking a lot about struggling small businesses and business owners today. Do you think this is the right time to ask them to raise the minimum wage? You, of course, support a $15 minimum wage.

Biden: I do, because I think one of the things we’re gonna have to do is we're gonna have to bail them out, too. We should be bailing them out now, those small businesses. You’ve got one in six of them going under. They're not going to be able to make it back. They passed a package that allows us to be able to call PPP, money that’s supposed to go to help them do everything from organize how they could deal with their businesses being open safely. Schools, how they can make classrooms smaller, how they can hire more teachers, how they can put ventilation systems in. They need the help, the businesses, as well as the schools, need the help. But this, these guys will not help them. He is not giving them any of the money.

Welker: We are going to move on --

56:35 Trump: For small businesses -- by raising the minimum wage and helping, I think it should be a state option. Alabama is different than New York, New York is different from Vermont. Every state is different. It should be a state option. So it's very important. We have to help our small business --

Welker: You said --

Trump: How are you helping small businesses, when you're forcing wages. What's going to happen and what's been proven to happen is when you do that these firemen

57:03 Welker: Well you said you would consider raising the federal minimum wage to $15 a hour --

Trump: Say again?

Welker: You said recently you would consider raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour. Is that still the case?

57:10 Trump: What I’d really like, I would consider it to an extent. I really like what I -- in a second administration -- but not to a level that's going to put all these businesses out of business. It should be a state option. Look, I have a read on different places, I know different places. They’re all different. Some places, $15 is not so bad. In other places, other states, $15 --

Welker: OK, President Trump, thank you. Quick response, Vice President Biden

Biden: Two jobs, one job below poverty. People are making 6, 7, 8 bucks an hour. These first responders we all clap for as they come down the street, because they've allowed us to make it. What's happening? They deserve a minimum wage of $15. Anything below that put you below the poverty level. And there is no evidence that when you raise the minimum wage, business has gone out of business. That is simply not true.

On immigration

Welker: We're going to talk about immigration. We're going to talk about immigration, now, gentlemen, and we're going to talk about families within this context. Mr. President, your administration separated children from their parents at the border, at least 4000 kids, You've since reversed your zero tolerance policy, but the United States can't locate the parents of more than 500 children. So how will these families ever be reunited?

Trump: Children are brought here by coyotes and lots of bad people, cartels, and they're brought here and it’s easy to use them to get into our country. We now have a stronger border as we've ever had. We’re over 400 miles of brand new wall, you see the numbers, and we let people in, but they have to come in legally.

Welker: But how will you reunite these kids with their families?

58:48 Trump: Let me just say. They built cages. You know, they used to say I built the cages. And then they had a picture in the newspaper. There was a picture of these horrible cages and they said, ‘Look at these cages, President Trump built them.’ And then it was determined they were built in 2014. That was him.

Welker: Do you have a plan to reunite the kids?

59:08 Trump: Yes, we're working on a very -- we're trying very hard. But a lot of these kids come up without the parents, they come over through cartels and the coyotes and through gangs.

Welker: Vice President Biden, let me bring you into this conversation. Quick response and then another question to you.

Biden: These 500 plus kids came with parents. They separated them at the border to make it a disincentive to come to begin with. Big real tough, really strong. And guess what? They cannot -- it’s not coyotes that bring them over, their parents were with them. They got separated from their parents. And it makes us a laughingstock and violates every judge of who we are as a nation.

Welker: Let me ask you a follow up --

Trump: Kristen, they did it, we changed the policy. They did it. We changed it. They set up the cages. They -- who built the cages?

Biden: So let's talk about --

Trump: Who built the cages, Joe?

59:58 Biden: Let’s talk about what we’re talking about. What happened? Parents were ripped -- their kids were ripped from their arms and separated. And now they cannot find over 500 sets of those parents and those kids are alone. Nowhere to go, nowhere to go. It's criminal. It's criminal.

Welker: Let me just --

Trump: Let me say this. They worked it out, we brought reporters and everything. They are so well taken care of. They're in facilities that were so clean --

Welker: But some of them haven’t been reunited --

Trump: But just answer one question. Who built the cages? A big ask of that, who built the cages?

Welker: Let me ask about your immigration policy, Mr. Vice President. The Obama administration did fail to deliver immigration reform, which had been a key promise during the administration. It also presided over record deportations as well as family detentions at the border before changing course. So why should voters trust you with an immigration overhaul now?

Biden: Because we made a mistake. It took too long to get it right. Too long to get it right. I'll be President of the United States, not Vice President of the United States. And the fact is, and I’ve made it very clear, within 100 days, I'm going to send to the United States Congress a pathway to citizenship for over 11 million undocumented people. And all those so called Dreamers, those DACA kids, they're going to be legally certified again, to be able to stay in this country, and put on a path to citizenship. The idea that they are being sent home by this guy, and they want to do, that is they go to a country they've never seen before. I can imagine you're five years old, your parents are taking you across the Rio Grande River and it’s and it's illegal. You say ‘Oh, no, Mom, leave me here. I'm not gonna go with you.’ They’ve been here. Many of them are model citizens. 20,000 are first responders out there taking care of people during this crisis. We owe them. We owe them.

1:01:51 Welker: President Trump, your response.

Trump: He had eight years to do what he said he was going to do. And I've changed without having a specific -- we get rid of catch and release, got rid of a lot of horrible things that they put in and that they live with. But he had eight years he was vice president. He did nothing except build cages to keep children in.

Welker: Vice President, what’s your response?

Biden: The catch and release, you know what he's talking about there? If in fact, you had family, came across, they're arrested. They, in fact, were given a date to show up for their hearing. They were released. And guess what, they showed up for the hearing. This is the first President in the history of the United States of America that anybody seeking asylum has to do it in another country. That's never happened before. That’s never happened before in our country. You come to the United States and you make your case. That’s how you seek asylum, based on the following premise, why I deserve it under American law. They're sitting in squalor on the other side of the river.

1:02:55 Welker: President Trump, there is --

Trump: It’s so important. It shows that he has no understanding of immigration of the laws. Catch and release is a disaster. A murderer would come in, a rapist would come in, a very bad person would come in -- we would take their name, we have to release them into our country. And then you say they come back. Less than 1% of the people come back.

Biden: Not true.

Trump: We have to send ICE out and Border Patrol out to find them. We would say, ‘Come back in two years, three years -- we're going to give you a court case. You did Perry Mason, we're going to give you a court case. When you say they come back, they don't come back, Joe. They never come back. Only the really -- I hate to say this -- but those with the lowest IQ, they might come back.

Welker: OK, President Trump, let’s give Vice President Biden a chance to respond, and then we're going to move on to the next section.

Trump: You don’t know the law, Joe.

Welker: Vice President Biden, your response.

Biden: I know the law. What he's telling you is simply not true.

Trump: They don’t come back.

Biden: Check it out.

Welker: All right, let's move on --

Trump: But we don’t have to worry about it because I terminated it. So we don’t have to worry about it

1:03:59 Welker: All right, let’s move on to the next section --

1:04:04 Biden: You have 525 kids not knowing where in God’s name they’re going to be and lost their parents.

Trump: Go ahead.

On race in America

Welker: All right. Let's talk about our next section, which is race in America. And I want to talk about the way Black and Brown Americans experience race in this country. Part of that experience is something called “the talk.” It happens regardless of class and income -- parents who feel they have no choice but to prepare their children for the chance that they could be targeted, including by the police, for no reason other than the color of their skin. Mr. Vice President, in the next two minutes, I want you to speak directly to these families. Do you understand why these parents fear for their children?

Biden: I do. I do. You know, my daughter is a social worker. And she's written a lot about this. She's got a graduate degree from the University of Pennsylvania in social work. So, one of the reasons why I ended up working on the East side of Wilmington, Delaware, which is 90 percent African American, was to learn more about what was going on. When I didn't -- I never had to tell my daughter if she's pulled over, make sure she puts, for traffic stop, puts both hands on top of the wheel. And don't reach for the glove box because someone may shoot you. But a Black parent, no matter how wealthy or how poor they are, has to teach their child, when you're walking down the street, don't have a hoodie on when you go across the street, making sure that you, in fact, if you get pulled over, just Yes or No sir, just hands on top of the wheel. Because you are in fact, the victim, whether you're a person making 300,000 -- $300,000-a-year person, or someone who's on food stamps. The fact of the matter is there is institutional racism in America. And we have always said we've never lived up to it. Do we hold these truths to be sovereign, are all men and women are created equal? Guess what -- we have never ever lived up to it. We have constantly been moving the needle further and further between inclusion and exclusion. This is the first president come along and says that's the end of that. We're not going to do that anymore. We have to provide for economic opportunity, better education, better health care, better access to schooling, better access to opportunity to borrow money to start businesses. All the things we can do. And I've laid out a clear plan as to how to do those things. Just to give people a shot. It's about accumulating the ability to have wealth, as well as it is to be free from violence.

1:06:32 Welker: President Trump, same question to you. And let me remind you of the question, I would like you to speak directly to these families. Do you understand why these parents fear for their children?

Trump: Yes, I do. And again, he's been in government 47 years. He never did a thing except in 1994, when he did such harm to the Black community. And they were called, and he called them, super predators. And he said that, he said it -- super predators. And they can never live that down. 1994, your crime bill, the super predators. Nobody has done more for the Black community than Donald Trump. And if you look, with the exception of Abraham Lincoln--possible exception, but the exception of Abraham Lincoln, nobody has done what I've done. Criminal justice reform, Obama and Joe didn't do it. I don't even think they tried because they had no chance at doing it. They might have wanted to do it. But if you had to see the arms I had a twist to get that done, it was not a pretty picture. And everybody knows it including some very liberal people that cried in my office--they cried in the Oval Office. Two weeks later, they're out saying, ‘Gee, we have to defeat him.’ Criminal justice reform, prison reform, opportunity zones with Tim Scott, a great senator from South Carolina. He came in with this incredible idea for opportunity zones. It’s one of the most successful programs. People don't talk about it. Tremendous investment is being made. Biggest beneficiary, the Black and Hispanic communities and then historically Black colleges and universities. After three years of coming to the office, I love some of those guys, they were great, they came into the office. And they said-- I said, ‘What are you doing after three years?’ I said, ‘Why do you keep coming back?’ ‘Because we have no funding’. I said, ‘You don't have to come back every year’, ‘We have to come back’, because President Obama would never give them long term funding. And I did. Ten-year, long term funding, and I give them more money than they asked for, because I said, ‘I think you need more’. And I said, ‘The only bad part about this is I may never see you again’, because I got very friendly with them and they like me and I like them. But I saved colleges and universities.

[1:08:28] Welker: OK. And we're going to talk about both of your records, but your response to that Vice President?

[1:08:33] Biden: My response to that is I never, ever said what he accused me of saying. The fact of the matter is, in 2000 though, after the crime bill had been in the law for a while, this is the guy who said, ‘The problem with the crime bill, there's not enough people in jail. There's not enough people in jail,’ and go on my website, get the quote the date when he said it, ‘not enough people’. He talked about marauding gangs, young gangs, the people who are going to mauraud our cities. This is a guy who when the Central Park five, five innocent Black kids, he continued to push for making sure that they got the death penalty. None of them were-- none of them were guilty of what the crime, of the crimes that were suggested. Look, and talk about he, granted, he did in fact let 20 people-- he committed 20 people’s sentences. We committed over 1,000 people’s sentences. Over 1,000. The very law he's talking about is a law that, in fact, initiated by Barack Obama. And secondly, we're in a situation here where we-- the federal prison system was reduced by 38,000 people under our administration. And one of the things we should be doing is there should be no, no minimum mandatories in the law. That's why I'm offering $20 billion to states to change their state laws to eliminate minimum mandatories and set up drug courts. Nobody should be going to jail because they have a drug problem. They should be going to rehabilitation, not to jail. We should fundamentally change the system and that's what I'm going to do.

[1:10:04] Trump: But why didn't he do it four years ago? Why didn't you do that four years ago, even less than that? Why didn't you--

[1:10:10] Biden: I am not--

[1:10:10] Trump: You were vice president. You keep talking about all these things you're going to do and you're going to do this. But you were there just a short time ago and you guys did nothing.

[1:10:19] Biden: We did--

[1:10:20] Trump: You know, Joe, I ran because of you. I ran because of Barack Obama, because you did a poor job. If I said you did a good job, I would have never run. I would've never run. I ran because of you. I'm looking at you now, you're a politician. I ran because of you.

[1:10:34] Welker: All right, Vice President Biden, your response to that? And then I do have some questions for both of you.

[1:10:38] Biden: Well, I’ll tell you what, I hope he does look at me because what's happening here is you know who I am, you know who he is, you know his character, you know my character, you know our reputations for honor and telling the truth. I am anxious to have this race. I'm anxious to see this take place. I am-- the character of the country is on the ballot. Our character is on the ballot. Look at us closely.

[1:11:00] Welker: Let me ask them some follow--

[1:11:01] Trump: Excuse me--

[1:11:04] Welker: Please respond and then we’re gonna have follow up questions.

[1:11:05] Trump: If this stuff is true about Russia, Ukraine, China, other countries, a wreck-- If this is true, then he's a corrupt politician. So don't give me the stuff about how you're this innocent baby. Joe, they're calling you a corrupt politician--

[1:11:19] Biden: Nobody says--

[1:11:20] Welker: President Trump, I want to stay on the issue of race. We're talking about the issue--

[1:11:21] Trump: It’s the laptop from hell. The laptop from hell.

[1:11:25] Welker: President Trump, we’re talking about race right now and I do want to speak on the issue of race. President Trump---

[1:11:29] Biden: Nobody-- Kristen, I have to respond to that.

[1:11:30] Welker: Please, very quickly.

[1:11:32] Biden: Look, there are 50 former National Intelligence folks who said that what this, he's accusing me of is a Russian plan. They have said that this has all the characteristics-- four-- five former heads of the CIA, both parties, say what he's saying is a bunch of garbage. Nobody believes it except him, his, and his good friend Rudy Giuliani.

[1:11:51] Trump: You mean, the laptop is now another Russia, Russia, Russia hoax? You gotta be--

[1:11:58] Biden: That’s exactly what-- That’s exactly what--

[1:12:00] Trump: Is this where you’re going? This is where he’s going. The laptop is Russia, Russia, Russia?

[1:12:03] Welker: Gentleman, I want to stay on the issue of race, okay--

[1:12:05] Trump: You have to be kidding here. Here we go again with Russia.

[1:12:09] Welker: Mr. President, we're gonna continue on the issue of race. Mr. President, you've described the Black Lives Matter movement as a symbol of hate. You've shared a video of a man chanting white power to millions of your supporters. You've said that Black professional athletes exercising their first amendment rights should be fired. What do you say to Americans who say that kind of language from a president is contributing to a climate of hate and racial strife?

[1:12:32] Trump: Well you have to understand the first time I ever heard of Black Lives Matter they were chanting ‘Pigs in a blanket’, talking about police, ‘Pigs, Pigs’, talking about our police, ‘Pigs in a blanket, fry' em like bacon’. I said, ‘That's a horrible thing’. And they were marching down the street. And that was my first glimpse of Black Lives Matter. I thought it was a terrible thing. As far as my relationships with all people, I think I have great relationships with all people. I am the least racist person in this room.

[1:13:03] Welker: What do you say to men who are concerned by that rhetoric?

[1:12:06] Trump: I don't, I don't know what to say. I got criminal justice reform done, and prison reform, and opportunity zones. I took care of Black colleges and universities. I don't know what to say. They can say anything. I mean, they can say anything. It's a very-- it makes me sad because I am the least racist person. I can't even see the audience because it's so dark, but I don't care who's in the audience. I’m the least racist person in this room.

[1:13:35] Welker: OK. Vice President Biden, let me ask you, very quickly, and then I have a follow up question for you.

[1:13:39] Biden: Abraham Lincoln. Here is one of the most racist presidents we've had in modern history. He pours fuel on every single racist fire, every single one. He started off his campaign coming down the escalator saying he’s gonna get rid of those Mexican rapists. He's banned Muslims because they're Muslims. He has moved around and made everything worse across the board. He says to them about the ‘Poor Boys’, last time we were on stage here. He said, ‘I told him to stand down and stand ready’. Come on. This guy has a dog whistle about as big as a fog horn.

[1:14:12] Welker: President Trump, I'm going to give you 10 seconds to respond and then have a follow up question.

[1:14:16] Trump: He made a reference to Abraham Lincoln. Where did that come in? I mean--

[1:14:19] Biden: You said you were Abraham Lincoln.

[1:14:21] Trump: No, no. I said not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I've done for the Black community. I didn’t say ‘I'm Abraham Lincoln’. I said, ‘Not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done but what I've done for the Black community’. Now you have done nothing other than the crime bill, which put--

[1:14:42] Biden: Oh, God.

[1:14:42] Trump: Tens of thousands of Black men, mostly, in jail. And you know what? They remember it because it you look at what’s happening with the voting right now, they remember that you treated them very, very badly. Just take a look at what’s happening out there.

[1:14:50] Welker: All right, let me-- Let me ask Vice President Biden about-- Vice President Biden, let me give you a chance to respond within this context. Crime bill that you supported in the 80s and 90s contributed to the incarceration of tens of thousands of young Black men who had small amounts of drugs in their possession. They are sons, they are brothers, they are fathers, they’re uncles whose families are still to this day, some of them, suffering the consequences. So speak to those families, why should they vote for you?

[1:15:20] Biden: One of the things that is said, in the '80s, we passed 100%, all 100 senators voted for it, a bill on drugs and how to deal with drugs. It was a mistake. I've been trying to change it since then, particularly the portion on cocaine. That's why I've been arguing that, in fact, we should not send anyone to jail for a pure drug offense. They should be going into treatment across the board. That's what we should be spending money on. That's why I set up drug courts which were never funded by republican friends. They should not be going to jail for a drug or an alcohol problem. They should be going into treatment. Treatment. That's what we've been trying to do. That's what I'm going to get done because they may-- the American people have now seen that in fact, it was a mistake to pass those laws where they do the drug. But they were not in the crime bill.

[1:16:12] Trump: But why didn't he get it done? See, it's all talk no action with these politicians. Why didn't he get it? ‘That's what I'm gonna do when I become president’. You were vice president, along with Obama as your President, your leader, for eight years. Why didn't you get it done? You had eight years to get it done? Now, you're saying you're gonna get it done because you're all talk and no action, Joe.

[1:16:34] Biden: We got a lot of it done. We released 38,000-- We got 38,000 prisoners left from--

[1:16:39] Trump: You got nothing done

[1:16:40] Biden: 38,000 prisoners were released from federal prison. We have-- there were over 1000 people who were given clemency. We-- in fact, we’re the ones that put in the legislation saying we could look at pattern of practice of the police departments and what they were doing, how they were conducting themselves. I could go on, but we began the process. We began the process. We lost an election. That's why I'm running to win back that election and change his terrible policy.

[1:1:08] Trump: I just ask-- I just ask one question: why didn't you do it in the eight years, a short time ago? Why didn't you do it? You just said, ‘I'm going to do that. I'm going to do this.’ You put tens of thousands of mostly Black young men in prison. Now you're saying you're going to get-- you're going to undo that. Why didn't you get it done? You had eight years with Obama? You know why, Joe, because you're all talk and no action.

[1:17:29] Welker: All right, Vice President Biden and then we're gonna move on to the next section.

[1:17:34] Biden: We had a Republican Congress. That’s the answer.

[1:17:37] Welker: OK.

[1:17:39] Trump: Well, you gotta talk-- you gotta talk 'em into it, Joe. Sometimes you gotta talk ‘em into it.

[1:17:43] Welker: All right, we’re gonna move on to our next section which is climate change-

[1:17:44] Trump: Like I did with criminal justice reform. I had to talk Democrats into it.

On climate change

[1:17:48] Welker: Gentlemen, we’re running out of time so we gotta get on to climate change, please. You both have very different visions on climate change. President Trump, you say that environmental regulations have hurt jobs in the energy sector. Vice President Biden, you have said you see addressing climate change as an opportunity to create new jobs. For each of you, how would you both combat climate change and support job growth at the same time? Starting with you, President Trump, you have two minutes uninterrupted.

[1:18:15] Trump: So we have the trillion trees program, we have so many different programs. I do love the environment, but what I want the cleanest, crystal clear water, the cleanest air. We have the best, lowest number in carbon emissions, which is a big standard that I noticed Obama goes with all the time. Not Joe. I haven't heard him use the term because I'm not sure he knows what it represents or means, but I have heard Obama use it. And we have the best carbon emission numbers that we've had in 35 years. Under this administration, we are working so well with industry, but what we can’t do-- Look at China, how filthy it is. Look at Russia. Look at India. It's filthy. The air is filthy. The Paris Accord, I took us out because we were going to have to spend trillions of dollars and we were treated very unfairly. When they put us in there, they did us a great disservice. They were going to take away our businesses. I will not sacrifice tens of millions of jobs, thousands and thousands of companies because of the Paris Accord. It was so unfair. China doesn't kick in until 2030. Russia goes back to a low standard and we kicked in right away. It would-- It would have been-- It would have destroyed our businesses. So, you ready? We have done an incredible job environmentally. We have the cleanest air, the cleanest water and the best carbon emission standards that we've seen in many, many years.

[1:19:50] Welker: Vice President, Biden--

[1:19:51] Trump: And we haven't destroyed our industries.

[1:19:52] Welker: Vice President Biden, two minutes to you uninterrupted.

[1:19:55] Biden: Climate change, climate warming, global warming is an existential threat to humanity. We have a moral obligation to deal with it. And we're told by all the leading scientists in the world that we don't have much time. We're going to pass the point of no return within the next eight to 10 years. Four years of this man eliminating all the regulations that were put in by us to clean up the climate, to clean up-- to limit the-- limit of admissions will put us in a position where we're going to be in real trouble. Here's where we have a great opportunity, I was able to get both all the environmental organizations as well as labor, people worried about jobs, to support my climate plan. Because what it does, it will create millions of new, good-paying jobs. We're going to invest in, for example, 500,000-- 50,000, excuse me, 50,000 charging stations on our highways so that we can own the electric car market in the future. In the meantime, China's doing that. We're going to be in a position where we're going to see to it that we're going to take 4 million existing billion, buildings and 2 million existing homes and retrofit them so they don't leak as much energy, saving hundreds of millions of barrels of oil in the process and creating a significant number of jobs. And by the way, the whole idea of what this is all going to do, it's going to create millions of jobs and it's going to clean the environment. Our health and our jobs are at stake. That's what's happening. And we-- right now, by the way, Wall Street firm has indicated that my plan-- My plan will, in fact, create 18.6 million jobs, 7 million more than his. This from Wall Street and I’ll create $1 trillion more in economic growth than his proposal does, not on climate just on the economy.

[1:21:47] Trump: President Trump, your response --

[1:21:48] Trump: They came out and said very strongly, ‘$6,500 will be taken away from families under his plan’, that his plan is an economic disaster. If you look at what he wants to do, you know if you look at his plan, you know, you know who developed it? AOC+3. They know nothing about the climate. I mean, she's got a good line of stuff, but she knows nothing about the climate. And they're all hopping through hoops for AOC+3. Look, they’re real play costs $100 trillion. If we had the best year in the history of our country for 100 years, we would not even come close to a number like that. When he says buildings, they want to take buildings down because they want to make bigger windows into smaller windows. As far as they're concerned, if you had no window it would be a lovely thing. This is the craziest plan that anybody has ever seen. And this wasn't done by smart people. This wasn't done by anybody. Frankly, I don't even know how it can be good politically. They want to spend $100 trillion. That's their real number. He's trying to say it was six. It’s $100 trillion. They want to knock down buildings and build new buildings with little tiny, small windows and many other things. And many other things--

[1:22:47] Welker: All right-- Okay, let me have the vice president respond and we're running out of time and we have a lot more questions. So let's hear from the Vice President. I have a number of more questions.

[1:23:11] Biden: I don't know where he comes from. I don’t know where he comes up with these numbers. $100 trillion? Give me a break. This plan was-- This plan has been endorsed by every major-- every major environmental group and every labor group. Labor. Because they know the future lies, the future lies in us being able to breath. And they know they're good jobs in getting us there. And by the way, the fastest growing industry in America are--is, is, is the electric--excuse me, solar energy and wind. He thinks wind causes cancer, windmills. It’s the fastest growing jobs and they pay good prevailing wages, 45-50 bucks an hour. We can grow and we can be cleaner, if we go the route I’m proposing.

[1:24:00] Welker: President Trump-- Please respond and then I have a follow up.

[1:24:00] Trump: Excuse me. We are energy independent for the first time. We don't need all of these countries that we had a fight war over because we needed their energy. We are energy independent. I know more about wind than you do. It’s extremely expensive, kills all the birds, it’s very intermittent. It's got a lot of problems and they happen to make the windmills in both Germany and China. And the fumes coming up-- If you're a believer in carbon emission, the fumes coming up to make-- make these massive windmills is more than anything that we're talking about with natural gas, which is very clean. One other thing--

[1:24:36] Biden: Find me a scientist that says that.

[1:24:38] Trump: Solar. I love solar, but solar doesn't quite have it yet. It's not powerful enough yet to-- to really run our big beautiful factories that we need to compete with the world--

[1:24:47] Biden: False.

[1:24:47] Trump: So, it's all a pipe dream, but you know what we'll do? We're gonna have the greatest economy in the world. But if you want to kill the economy, get rid of your oil industry. You want-- And what about fracking?

[1:25:01] Welker: All right. Let me allow Vice President Biden to respond--

[1:25:04] Biden: I have never said I oppose fracking.

[1:25:06] Trump: You said it on tape.

[1:25:08] Biden: I did? Show the tape. Put it on your website.

[1:25:10] Trump: I’ll put it on.

[1:25:11] Biden: Put it on the website. The fact of the matter is he’s flat lying.

[1:25:15] Welker: Would you rule out banning fracking?

[1:25:17] Biden: I do rule out banning fracking because the answer we need-- We need other industries to transition to get to, ultimately, a complete zero emissions by 2025. What I will do with fracking over time is make sure that we can capture the emissions from the fracking. Capture the emissions from gas. We can do that and we can do that by investing money into-- It's a transition to that.

[1:25:44] Welker: I have one more question--

[1:25:48] Trump: Excuse me. He was against fracking. He said it. I will show that to you tomorrow. ‘I am against fracking’, until he got the nomination, went to Pennsylvania than he said-- You know what, Pennsylvania? He'll be against it very soon because his party is totally against it.

[1:26:00] Biden: Fracking on federal Land, I said. No fracking or oil on federal land--

[1:26:05] Welker: Let me ask this final question in this section and then I want to move on to our final section. President Trump, people of color are much more likely to live near oil refineries and chemical plants. In Texas there are families who worry the plants near them are making them sick. Your administration has rolled back regulations on these kinds of facilities. Why should these families give you another four years in office?

[1:26:26] Trump: The families that we're talking about are employed heavily and they are making a lot of money, more money than they've ever made. If you look at the kind of numbers that we produce for Hispanic, or Black, or Asian, it's nice times greater, the percentage gain than it was under-- in three years-- than it was under eight years of the two of them, to put it nicely. Nine times more. Now, somebody lives-- I have not heard the numbers or the statistics that you're saying-- But they're making a tremendous amount of money. Economically, we saved it. And I saved it again a number of months ago when oil was crashing because of the pandemic. We saved it. We got-- Say what you want of that relationship, we got Saudi Arabia, Mexico and Russia to cut back, way back. We saved our oil industry and now it's very vibrant and everybody has very inexpensive gasoline. Remember that.

[1:27:22] Welker: Vice President Biden, your response and then we're going to have a final question for both of you.

[1:27:26] Biden: My response is that those people live on what they call ‘Fence Lines’. He doesn't understand this. They live near chemical plants that, in fact, pollute. Chemical plants, and oil plants and refineries that pollute. I used to live near that when I was growing up in Claremont, Delaware. And all the more oil refineries in Marcus Hook and the Delaware River than there is anyplace, including in Houston at the time. When my mom would get the car when they're first frost to drive me to school, turned on the windshield wipers there’d be oil slick in the window. That's why so many people in my state were dying and getting cancer. The fact is those frontline communities, it doesn't matter what you're paying them. It matters how you keep them safe. What do you do? And you impose restrictions on the pollution, that the pollutants coming out of those fenceline communities.

[1:28:12] Welker: OK, I have one final question--

[1:28:14] Trump: Would you close down the-- Would you close down the oil industry?

[1:28:17] Biden: I would transition from the oil industry. Yes.

[1:28:19] Trump: Oh, transition.

[1:28:21] Biden: It is a big statement because I would stop--

[1:28:22] Welker: Why would you do that?

[1:28:24] Biden: Because the oil industry significantly — but here's the deal —

[1:28:27] Trump: That’s a big statement.

[1:28:31] Biden: Well, if you let me finish the statement, because it has to be replaced by renewable energy over time. Over time. And I’d stop giving to the oil industry-- I’d stop giving them federal subsidies. You won't give federal subsidies to the gas and, excuse me, to solar and wind. Why are we giving it to the oil industry?

[1:28:52] Trump: We actually do give it to solar and wind--

[1:28:54] Welker: All right, we have one final question--

[1:28:56] Trump: That’s the biggest statement. In terms of business. that's the biggest statement.

[1:28:59] Welker: All right, we have one final question-- Mr. President--

[1:29:00] Trump: Because basically what he’s saying is he’s going to destroy the oil industry. Will you remember that Texas? Will you remember that Pennsylvania? Oklahoma? Ohio?

[1:29:07] Welker: Vice President Biden, let me give you ten seconds to respond and then I have to get to the final question. Vice President Biden?

[1:29:12] Biden: He takes everything out of context, but the point is, look, we have to move toward a net zero emissions. The first place to do that by the year 2025 is in energy production. By 2050, totally.

[1:29:25] Welker: All right. One final question--

[1:29:26] Trump: Is he gonna get China to do it? Is he going to get China to do it?

[1:29:27] Welker: No, we're finished with this. We have to move on to our final question.

[1:29:30] Biden: No, I’m going to rejoin the Paris Accord and get China to abide by what they agreed to

[1:29:33] Trump: But that’ll cost you $1 trillion.

Final question

[1:29:34] Welker: This is about leadership, gentlemen, and this first question does go to you, President Trump.. Imagine this is your Inauguration Day. What will you say in your a

Even as the coronavirus rages, Michigan hospitals plan layoffs

Jennifer Dixon, Detroit Free Press, Robin Erb, Bridge Magazine and Kristen Jordan Shamus, Detroit Free Press

Even as the coronavirus pandemic roils Michigan's hospitals — sickening employees, inundating intensive care units and overflowing morgues — these health systems are laying off employees by the hundreds.

The hospitals, and hospital experts, blame declining revenues from lost patient office visits and postponed medical procedures, such as knee or hip replacements, for layoffs and pay cuts.

On Wednesday, the Detroit Medical Center announced it will furlough 480 employees, while the McLaren Medical Group will cut the hours of many of its 500 doctors, physician's assistants, nurse practitioners and nurse midwives.

A day earlier, Beaumont Health confirmed it would sideline one of its eight hospitals — Beaumont, Wayne — and hold it empty to serve “as a reserve COVID-19 hospital” at an undefined point in the future.

At least 300 workers at Beaumont’s Wayne hospital were laid off, according to the Service Employee International Union's Healthcare Michigan, which represents about 1,000 employees at three of Beaumont’s hospitals, including Wayne.

And on Monday, the president of the union that represents registered nurses at McLaren Macomb told the Free Press the hospital would lay off 16 to 20 operating and recovery room nurses this week.

More:Union chief says McLaren Macomb hospital to lay off operating and recovery room nurses

While another large Detroit health care provider, the Henry Ford Health System, declined to say whether it was planning layoffs, it released this statement from Brenda Craig, vice president, integrated communications:

"There is no question that this pandemic is having a financial effect on our health system and we are continuing to assess the full impact as this crisis evolves. Like other health systems across our region, we are exploring a number of options to stabilize our financial performance including pursuing federal assistance programs and identifying ways to reduce expenses."

This story was co-published with Bridge Magazine and Michigan Radio.

Experts: Revenue centers cut off

Shooshan Danagoulian, assistant professor in the economics department at Wayne State University, said the coronavirus pandemic is having a very sharp, negative impact on hospitals because they depend so heavily on elective and non-emergency care for revenue.

And with so many workers now unemployed and lacking the health insurance their jobs provided, patients who do show up at the hospital may be unable to pay their bills, she said.

"In this pandemic, hospitals are going to have to find new ways of reducing their costs. Right now, physician groups and hospitals are cutting physicians' salaries and hours, and administrators are taking pay cuts," she said.

And they're also laying off other workers, such as laboratory assistants and patient intake employees.

"Providers overall are feeling like they're caught between a rock and hard place," she said. On one hand, they're "running toward the fire" that is COVID-19, and on the other hand, they're "having to make these tough financial choices: how to keep their staff, how to pay their staff, and who to let go ... hospitals have no good choices for surviving this."

The Detroit Medical Center is especially hard hit, with 480 employees to be furloughed.

More:Detroit Medical Center to furlough 480 employees during coronavirus crisis

In a written statement released Wednesday, CEO Audrey Gregory said the employees of the eight-hospital system “remain on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic,” but she noted that the state’s stay-at-home orders have forced some operations to be “temporarily closed or ramped down.”

Those restrictions ban elective or non-emergency procedures — the more profitable procedures on which hospitals rely to balance their bottom lines — so hospitals can have enough room and resources to handle COVID-19 patients. The cancellations also keep people without COVID-19 infections from possibly being exposed to the virus at hospitals also treating COVID-19 patients.

McLaren Medical Group, a part of McLaren Health Care, said it had experienced a reduction in patient volumes of more than 60% and will cut its employees' hours.

Julie Lepzinski, president and CEO of McLaren Medical Group, said in a statement that it was "taking a critical look at offices most impacted. We are adjusting hours of operation to account for decreased volume, while maintaining access for essential care. For patients in need of more routine care, we have expanded our telehealth availability to help ensure access to care."

She said McLaren Medical was currently working with physicians to "identify those who may be temporarily furloughed for the next two months. They will maintain a certain level of compensation and continue their healthcare coverage. We don’t yet have final numbers or locations for furloughed physicians, as we are reviewing patient volumes on a regional basis and ensuring we continue to provide necessary care across the state.

"Of the nearly 500 providers we have across Michigan, all will continue working throughout this healthcare crisis. However, many will have reduced working hours based on the needs of our communities and the patients we serve."

According to McLaren Medical's website, it has more than 300 physicians, as well as physician assistants, nurse practitioners and nurse midwives who work at more than 150 primary and specialty centers.

Beaumont's challenges

Beaumont Health is also struggling financially.

Beaumont, whose CEO was among the first to raise concerns about health care finances amid COVID-19, reported Monday that it was $54 million in the red in net operating income during the first quarter of 2020. CEO John Fox has called for a $300 billion-$600 billion federal Hospital System Super Fund.

It is now putting its hospital in Wayne on stand-by in the case of a COVID-19 resurgence.

“The pandemic remains very unpredictable,” said spokesman Mark Geary.

Jason Bradford said he’s now without a job. The Ypsilanti man said he has worked at Beaumont, Wayne in the patient-access registration department since December 2014.

In recent weeks, the Wayne location canceled its scheduled procedures and closed its emergency room. In Bradford’s words, “the hospital was literally only COVID-19 patients.”

But then Beaumont stopped admitting new COVID-19 patients to the hospital, which has 185 beds. Staff was cut, too.

Bradford said that within hours of the last patient being taken out of the Wayne hospital by helicopter Tuesday night, Beaumont, Wayne employees were told by email they were being laid off.

Democratic U.S. Reps. Debbie Dingell and Rashida Tlaib sent a letter Tuesday to Beaumont CEO Fox about the temporary closure of the Wayne campus, saying they were “alarmed” by the decision to “close a crucial health care facility during the deadliest pandemic our nation has seen in over a century.”

They cited statistics about how vital the hospital is to the area it serves, handling 61,000 emergency room visits in 2018 and delivering 1,000 babies that year.

In the county hardest hit by the COVID-19 outbreak in Michigan, they said closing Beaumont, Wayne is “not only irresponsible, it is a threat to the very health and safety of the community you claim to serve.”

Beaumont Health’s executive vice president and COO had been scheduled to speak at Dingell’s town hall Wednesday night. But after Dingell sent the letter, the VP canceled her appearance.

Union feels targeted

SEIU President Andrea Acevedo said 300 people at the Wayne hospital have lost their jobs.

“They laid off every single worker,” she said.

Unionized Beaumont workers are being laid off more than non-unionized staff, she said. Worse, she said, Beaumont workers who are part of labor unions are not eligible for the $500 or $1,000 hazard pay bonuses issued to others on the front lines.

“We really feel that Beaumont as an entity has taken this pandemic and used it as a way to really attack workers and especially workers that are represented by unions,” Acevedo said.

Danagoulian, the Wayne State assistant professor, said she believes hospital volumes will slowly recover through the summer, but will not return to pre-pandemic levels until next year.

Wally Hopp, a distinguished professor of business and engineering at the University of Michigan who studies the business of health care, said the layoffs are a sign of the stress that the health care system is under.

"They're trying to stem the red ink that's hitting them," Hopp said. "The lion's share of their costs is people. It's tragic that they're furloughing people in the middle of a health and economic crisis."

Hopp said as the pandemic continues — it's been only weeks since it hit Michigan — "another shoe keeps dropping. That's a shame."

But at the same time, the pandemic is also forcing hospitals to "innovate in a rapid way," Hopp said. "It's a shock to the system that forces some innovation."

Hopp said he believes large hospital systems, while taking a short-term hit, will "come out of this in pretty good shape."

But he is concerned about already struggling rural hospitals in Michigan and across the country.

"If major health care systems" have to cut costs like this, "imagine what's happening to the smaller, already at-risk hospitals," Hopp said.

And just as COVID-19 is often hardest on the weak, elderly and those with underlying medical conditions, "the same is true on the financial side. Hospitals that are in weakened financial shape are threatened that much more."

Rural hospitals suffer

While these rural hospitals have few COVID-19 patients, they are feeling the pain.

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s executive order March 20 that shut down non-emergency procedures was the last day that Hillsdale Hospital performed a non-emergency surgery, said JJ Hodshire, its chief operating officer.

Also idled were pre-op efforts and follow-up care after surgery, such as physical therapy or home care. The hospital’s pain clinic has been closed for now, and there are few blood draws, Hodshire said last Friday.

Now facing an estimated $10 million loss by June 30 — a thunderous blow for the small, 105-year-old hospital — Hillsdale has laid off 15% of its staff, he said.

Hodshire largely blames Whitmer’s stay home, stay safe orders. The same orders that cancel non-emergency care in the state’s hardest hit regions make little sense in rural areas with fewer confirmed cases, he said.

He’d restart those non-emergency procedures tomorrow if it weren’t for Whitmer's emergency order, he said, noting the hospital was caring for just two patients positive with COVID-19 that day.

“If she would not have taken the executive order and implemented that we wouldn't be having this discussion,” Hodshire said.

“We're losing millions on a monthly basis,” said Brian Long, CEO at Owosso-based Memorial Healthcare, who said the hospital began postponing procedures about a week before Whitmer’s order.

More than surgeries, those include routine mammograms, colonoscopies and well-child checks, for example, he said. Plus, patients are avoiding emergency rooms, leery of what they might encounter in waiting rooms.

Last year, Memorial had an “exceptionally good year,” ending with about $3 million on operational income. Now, he said, “we’re looking at losses of $3.5 million to $4 million every month.”

As a result, it has furloughed 200 of its approximate 1,500 employees — medical assistants, cases managers, accounting personnel and others, he said.

“It was one of the most difficult decisions that you can imagine,” Long said. “We have gone through some tough times, but I have never — and I repeat, never — in my career ever had a reduction in force."

He said, “If we do nothing at all, we’d probably be looking at a year and we’d be totally bankrupt."

The problem facing hospital systems across the state is hardly unique to Michigan, said Chas Roades, CEO of the Washington-based healthcare consultants, Gist Healthcare.

“Hospitals everywhere are struggling with a real economic challenge right now,” he said.

That’s because hospitals, to varying degrees, rely on elective surgeries for “their income, their profitability,” he said.

“With the shutdown, there's just not enough money to pay everybody to do the work that is not being done right now,” Roades said.

Contact Jennifer Dixon: 313-223-4410 or jbdixon@freepress.com.

Get involved: The Detroit Free Press, Bridge Magazine and Michigan Radio are teaming up to report on Michigan hospitals during the coronavirus pandemic. If you work in a Michigan hospital, we would love to hear from you. You can contact Kristen Jordan Shamus at kshamus@freepress.com or Robin Erb at rerb@bridgemi.com.