Newsgroup: it.salute
Titolo: Chelazione

Qualcuno che sia Medico che mi sappia dare informazioni su questa pratica
clinica?
Lello

su questa pratica clinica?
Dovresti fornire maggiori indicazioni.
La chelazione è un cavallo di battaglia di molti medici "alternativi"
(validità scientifica e utilità = zero) o può essere in alcuni casi una
terapia efficace secondo la giusta indicazione.
-- 
        ___
 /\/\/\/ _/  Doctor Diabolicus
/     / /_ 
\/\/\/\__/   
http://www.sci-med.it

 La chelazione è un cavallo di battaglia di molti medici "alternativi"
e prezzolati
e in piu'non rispettano neanche i protocolli originari
ad es.facendo 10 chelazioni invece di 20-30.
indovinate un po'perche'?
carlitos.

Si,  ok.  ma cos'č?
Grazie Jole

 indovinate un po'perche'?
perche'  ??
Kunga

 Lello
trovi molto qui :  
http://www.ifa.it/sitec/index2.htm
Kunga

 Si,  ok.  ma cos'è?
La terapia chelante ha notevoli applicazioni sia in ambito preventivo che in
varie patologie degenerative. Essa si avvale principalmente dell'utilizzo di
un aminoacido di sintesi: l'edta (acido etile diammino tetracetico). L'edta
è una sostanza chimica che rimuove i metalli indesiderabili, attraverso la
chelazione (legame elettrochimico) dai liquidi o tessuti con i quali viene a
contatto. Alcuni metalli, quali il piombo, il mercurio ed il cadmio
risultano essere tossici per l'organismo se i loro livelli eccedono la
norma. Sul principio che tutti i metalli, se in eccesso, risultano essere
tossici per la salute dell'individuo, si basa la terapia chelante. Infatti
l'edta normalizza la distribuzione di molti elementi metallici
nell'organismo, riduce il metabolismo del calcio e del colesterolo mediante
l'eliminazione dei loro cataboliti (prodotti chimici finali) che risultano
essere la causa della loro tossicità per il danno che consegue alle membrane
cellulari.
La terapia chelante è applicata al fine di ridurre l'indurimento delle
arterie, meglio conosciuta come arteriosclerosi. Questa malattia risulta
essere causata da molteplici fattori, tra i quali appunti, l'accumulo
abnorme di metalli e del calcio. L'arteriosclerosi e' come noto la causa
principale degli accidenti vascolari: infarto del miocardio, ischemia
cerebrale, insufficienza vascolare periferica. La terapia chelante di per sé
è una potente terapia antiossidante: si avvale oltre che dell'edta di tutto
un corollario di altri antiossidanti, risultando così la migliore terapia
anti radicali liberi e di conseguenza di ringiovanimento cellulare. Si e'
visto che gia' dopo le prime dieci sedute di terapia chelante si ha un
benefico effetto sui legami crociati di tutti i tessuti. La terapia chelante
è il trattamento di scelta per la rimozione dei metalli tossici e per la
prevenzione dei danni da radicali liberi da loro provocato. Questa è una
terapia in voga da ormai più di quarantanni negli U.S.A.
tratto da :  
http://www.ifa.it/sitec/index2.htm
ciao Kunga

Lello
Troppo generica come domanda, chelazione di cosa?...
Sostanze tossiche, tipo ferro ed alluminio?...
chelazione "de che"?....
Fatina

La terapia chelante di per sé è una potente terapia antiossidante
Ecco, queste sono STRONZATE MEGAGALATTICHE...
Buon natale :-)


clinica?
Che vuoi chelare? Il ferro (talassemia) il rame (m. di Wilson) o che
altro?
-- 
Ignazio GSS© * More than 90 HiRes images in my home page  
http://www.ipuddu.it
200 Images of digestive endoscopy
http://www.areamedica.com

 Ecco, queste sono STRONZATE MEGAGALATTICHE...
Sono tue personali osservazioni rilevate da quali studi  ???
Ci sono articoli scientifici che spieghino le tue esternazioni ??
grazie
Kunga

La terapia chelante di per sé è una potente terapia antiossidante
Bene, sei TU che devi dimostrare che e' vero, con fatti concreti, non
certo gli altri che devono dimostrarti che e' una sciocchezza.


Ci sono articoli scientifici che spieghino le tue esternazioni ??
Veramente la domanda la farei io: esiste una qualche ragione logicamente
comprensibile che dia una giustificazione a questi deliri?
Non ti chiedo "articoli scientifici", solo la spiegazione comprensibile
di come la terapia chelante funzioni nell'arteriosclerosi. Sei capace?


 di come la terapia chelante funzioni nell'arteriosclerosi. Sei capace?
se avrai la compiacenza di leggerti questi link .... avrai le tue risposte .
http://www.mmmariani.com/terapia.htm
http://www.ifa.it/sitec/1congresso.htm
     con gli atti
http://www.aisa.it/corsi_masters/16-IV_corso_terapia_chelante_con_edta.htm
AISA - Associazione Italiana dei Medici Specialisti in Angiologia  come vedi
ci sono  molti medici che la praticano .
Kunga

se avrai la compiacenza di leggerti questi link .... avrai le tue risposte .
no . qui non ci sono risposte 
c'e' solo scritto " ma quanto ganzi siamo noi "
la risposta sta qua : 
In October 1989, chelation therapy was listed as one of "The Top Ten Health
Frauds" in an article in FDA Consumer. The article reported that both the
FDA and the American Heart Association have said that there is no scientific
evidence that chelation therapy is effective against cardiovascular disease.
te tu c' abbocchi sempre eh ? 
Basta che tu senta il puzzo di alternativo e tuffete ! ecco Kunga che si
tuffa nella tazza !
 ne sutor ultra crepidam ... bla bla 
links utili :
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelationimp.html
Randomized, blinded clinical trials since then have been negative. In 1985
and 1986, Diehm et at. treated 45 patients with high-grade arterial
obstruction and intermittent claudication with either EDTA chelation or
Bencyclan, an anticoagulant. Measures included ability to perform pain-free
walking exercises, blood flow, red cell viscosity, erythrocyte aggregation,
triglyceride, and cholesterol levels. Measurements made during the 4-week
treatment period and for 3 months after treatment stopped showed both
treatment and control groups improved equally. Diehm concluded that
improvement was due to motivation from his strong interest in subjects'
well-being and their motivation to perform 
</to be continued>
 --
sgas UIN  69225877 
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies
 ( Nietzsche ) 

avrai le tue risposte .
Allora vediamo...
Sono in vacanza, perdiamo un quarto d'ora...
Affermare che la terapia chelante sia capace di ridurre l'indurimento
delle arterie, meglio conosciuta come arteriosclerosi è una stronzata,
IMO.
Cosa dice uno dei link che mi proponi?
Ho letto con attenzione il capitolo "E.D.T.A.  ED ATEROSCLEROSI" su
http://www.mmmariani.com/terapia.htm
 e l'ho trovato un gran mucchio di
sciocchezze, tautologie, banalità, inesattezze, bugie.
Insomma, tutto tranne che "ragioni logicamente comprensibili" del
DELIRIO -lo confermo- che hai riportato.
Ti annuncio che questa è stata l'ultima che ho perso tempo dietro alle
tue assurde e inconsistenti indicazioni.
Quelle che sono scritte su quel sito sono chiacchere che potrebbero
andare bene forse per un imbonitore da fiere di paese; se pure questo è
il tuo livello, questo non ti deve autorizzare a credere che possa
andare bene per chiunque. Ma è perfettamente inutile andare ad
analizzare nel dettaglio tutte le sciocchezze riportate su quel
documento: è noto che tu non sei in grado di sostenere una discussione
su di un simile argomento: sei capace solo di fare copia&incolla, o di
rimandare a siti di infimo livello.
Quindi piantiamola qui: hai detto un po' di stronzate megagalattiche
-come il tuo solito- e amen.


  ne sutor ultra crepidam ... bla bla
va' bene che forse usi l' EDTA solo per alesare i canali ....
ma sei pure angiologo ?
che ci siano studi a sfavore non dimostra nulla .... ci sono un sacco di
altre ricerche che attestano i benefici ....
tipo :
" E.D.T.A.  ED ATEROSCLEROSI
La terapia chelante agisce nell'inversione del processo aterosclerotico
eliminando il calcio  dal microcircolo
La terapia chelante elimina il calcio dai capillari, là dov'è rimovibile,
nel microcircolo,non dalle grandi arterie dove la placca è ormai organizzata
e consolidata in cristalli di idrossiapatite.
Dopo le prime  dieci terapie già si ha questo effetto sui legami crociati
del collagene con aumento della flessibilità dei piccoli vasi (per la legge
di Poiselle: per un aumento di 1/3 del volume del vaso si ha un aumento del
flusso ematico del 50%).
Uno studio italiano del 1991, svolto presso l'Università di Palermo,
studiando con la capillaroscopia 90 pazienti arteriopatici trattati con
terapia chelante con e.d.t.a. ha documentato in vivo l'attivazione del
microcircolo a livello delle rilevazioni  acrali e congiuntivali (Ballo,
Mandolesi et al.).
La terapia chelante è applicata al fine di ridurre l'indurimento delle
arterie, meglio conosciuta come arteriosclerosi. Questa malattia risulta
essere causata da molteplici fattori, tra i quali appunti, l'accumulo
abnorme di metalli e del calcio. L'arteriosclerosi e' come noto la causa
principale degli accidenti vascolari: infarto del miocardio, ischemia
cerebrale, insufficienza vascolare periferica. Come abbiamo detto la
malattia aterosclerotica è per definizione una patologia polidistrettuale ed
evolutiva.
L'atto chirurgico di bypass, quando ha buon esito, è eclatante nel risolvere
la sintomatologia del paziente (claudicatio, angina, T.I.A. subentranti), ma
non rappresenta che una soluzione temporanea ed incompleta della storia
naturale della malattia.
Le statistiche indicano che i soggetti operati in un distretto vascolare
spesso muoiono, negli anni successivi, per un aggravamento di lesioni talora
misconosciute in altri distretti.
Tali pazienti non solo sono stati sottoposti ad accurate indagini
preoperatorie, ma dopo l'intervento hanno ricevuto anche un'adeguata
copertura farmacologica, secondo schemi terapeutici comunemente accettati,
atti a prevenire eventuali complicanze vascolari.
Perché allora tali complicanze sono così frequenti in questi pazienti?
Si deve ipotizzare che:
a) il paziente non cambi le proprie abitudini di vita (motorie, alimentari,
voluttuarie, lavorative);
b) la riacquistata salute spinga il soggetto ad eccessi psico-fisici a lui
non consentiti prima dell'intervento chirurgico;
c) i farmaci assunti siano, da soli, poco efficaci nel prevenire l'
evoluzione della malattia  aterosclerotica;
L'efficacia della terapia chelante riguardo l' arteriosclerosi e le sue
complicanze è stata dimostrata alla fine degli anni ottanta Efrain Olsewer e
James P. Carter, medici americani, membri dell'ACAM, utilizzando criteri
obiettivi su uno studio retrospettivo di 2.870 pazienti cardiopatici,
trattati con terapia chelante.
Essi riportarono un marcato miglioramento nel 65,8% dei casi ed un buon
miglioramento nel 16,5% dei pazienti studiati per un complessivo  82,3% di
casi migliorati.
Questi stessi autori condussero e pubblicarono assieme al dottor Sabbag a
San Paolo (Brasile) un altro studio controllato a doppio cieco con un
placebo su pazienti con claudicatio intermittens: gli autori riportano un
miglioramento significativo in quelli che avevano ricevuto l' e.d.t.a.
rispetto a quelli a cui era stato somministrato il placebo.
Studi sull'e.d.t.a. sono stati effettuati anche in Italia da medici
appartenenti alla SITeC - Societa' Italiana Terapia Chelante -
Oltre lo studio del 1991, svolto presso l'Università di Palermo, sopra
citato, un altro recente studio effettuato nel 2000 presso l'Università di
Milano ha dimostrato l'effetto del trattamento con e.d.t.a. sull'attività
dei neutrofili e delle cellule endoteliali in vivo ed in vitro (Ferrero,
Mandolesi et al.).  "
tratto da : 
www.ifa.it/sitec
 byebye KUNGA

 -come il tuo solito- e amen.
a' dotto'  hai rotto .....
starai in vacanza ma prima di leggere e saltare quello che ti da' fastidio
METTITI   GLI OCCHIALI  !!!
" Uno studio italiano del 1991, svolto presso l'Università di Palermo,
studiando con la capillaroscopia 90 pazienti arteriopatici trattati con
terapia chelante con e.d.t.a. ha documentato in vivo l'attivazione del
microcircolo a livello delle rilevazioni  acrali e congiuntivali (Ballo,
Mandolesi et al.).
La terapia chelante è applicata al fine di ridurre l'indurimento delle
arterie, meglio conosciuta come arteriosclerosi. Questa malattia risulta
essere causata da molteplici fattori, tra i quali appunto, l'accumulo
abnorme di metalli e del calcio. L'arteriosclerosi e' come noto la causa
principale degli accidenti vascolari: infarto del miocardio, ischemia
cerebrale, insufficienza vascolare periferica. Come abbiamo detto la
malattia aterosclerotica è per definizione una patologia polidistrettuale ed
evolutiva.
L'atto chirurgico di bypass, quando ha buon esito, è eclatante nel risolvere
la sintomatologia del paziente (claudicatio, angina, T.I.A. subentranti), ma
non rappresenta che una soluzione temporanea ed incompleta della storia
naturale della malattia. "
SEI  UN   ANGIOLOGO  ?    UN   CARDIOCHIRURGO  .....
un po' di umilta' signor so'tuttoio .....
byebye KUNGA

tratto da : 
www.ifa.it/sitec
 ah ... ecco 
 ne prendima un altro ?
*****************************
J Intern Med. 1995 Apr;237(4):429-32.
EDTA treatment of intermittent claudication--a double-blind,
placebo-controlled study.
Guldager B, Jelnes R, Jorgensen SJ, Nielsen JS, Klaerke A, Mogensen K,
Larsen KE, Reimer E, Holm J, Ottesen S.
Department of Surgery, Central Hospital Hillerod, Denmark.
A double-blind, randomized multicentre study was undertaken to evaluate the
possible effect of chelation treatment with ethylenediamine-tetraacetic acid
(EDTA) in patients with severe intermittent claudication. A total of 153
patients received 20 intravenous infusions of either 3 g Na2EDTA or placebo
during a period of 5-9 weeks. Vitamin, mineral and trace element supplements
were administered orally. The changes observed in the pain-free and maximal
walking distances, measured on a treadmill, were similar in the two groups.
During the 3-month (n = 149) and 6-month (n = 123) follow-up period, no
long-term therapeutic effect of EDTA could be demonstrated. The
ankle-brachial blood pressure index remained unchanged throughout the study
period. This study failed to demonstrate any effect of EDTA chelation
treatment in intermittent claudication.
Publication Types: 
Clinical Trial 
Multicenter Study 
Randomized Controlled Trial 
PMID: 1556523 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 
 o un altro ancora ?
************************************
Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2002;(4):CD002785.  Related Articles, Links  
Chelation therapy for atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease.
Villarruz MV, Dans A, Tan F.
4050 - G Bigasan Street, Palanan 1235, Makati City, Philippines.
es...@vasia.com
BACKGROUND: Chelation therapy is being promoted and practiced all over the
world as a form of alternative medicine in the treatment of atherosclerotic
cardiovascular disease. It has been recommended as a safe, relatively
inexpensive and non-surgical method of restoring blood flow in
atherosclerotic vessels. At present the benefit of chelation therapy remains
controversial at best. OBJECTIVES: The objective of this review is to assess
the effects of ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid (EDTA) chelation therapy on
clinical outcomes among patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular
disease. SEARCH STRATEGY: The reviewers searched the Cochrane Peripheral
Vascular Diseases Group Trials Register, (last searched July 2002), the
Cochrane Controlled Trials Register, (Cochrane Library Issue 2, 2002),
MEDLINE and EMBASE for published articles and other relevant articles.
Studies were also requested through correspondence with known Filipino
practitioners of the procedure. SELECTION CRITERIA: Studies were included if
they were randomized controlled trials of EDTA chelation therapy versus
placebo or no treatment in patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular
disease. Main outcome measures considered included either total or
cause-specific mortality, non-fatal cardiovascular events, direct or
indirect measurement of disease severity, subjective measures of improvement
or adverse events. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Two reviewers (MVV, FT)
extracted data and assessed trial quality independently. Unresolved issues
were considered by a third reviewer (ALD). Discrepancies were discussed
until a consensus was reached. Authors were contacted for additional
information. MAIN RESULTS: A total of five studies was included in the
review. Mortality, non-fatal events, and cerebrovascular events were not
reported in any of the studies. Four of the studies, with a total
recruitment rate of 250 participants, showed no significant difference in
the following outcomes: direct or indirect measurement of disease severity
and subjective measures of improvement. One of the studies, which included
only 10 patients, was interrupted prematurely, because of an apparent
treatment effect. However, relevant data were not available in the report
and have been requested from the authors. REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: At
present, there is insufficient evidence to decide on the effectiveness or
ineffectiveness of chelation therapy in improving clinical outcomes of
patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. This decision must be
preceded by conducting randomized controlled trials that would include
endpoints that show the effects of chelation therapy on longevity and
quality of life among patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease.
Publication Types: 
Meta-Analysis 
Review 
Review, Academic 
PMID: 12519577 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 
fatti un giro su medline e torna con qualcosa di decente .
-- 
sgas 

 fatti un giro su medline e torna con qualcosa di decente .
___________________________________________________
EDTA chelation therapy in the treatment of vascular disease.
Chappell LT, Janson M.
Wright State School of Medicine, Dayton, Ohio, USA.
Ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid (EDTA) chelation therapy has been used for
decades for the treatment of vascular disease, alone or in combination with
other treatments. This article includes a historic review of the research
literature, current evidence of effectiveness, potential mechanisms of
action of EDTA, and some brief case reports. The authors conclude that EDTA
chelation therapy is a valuable therapeutic option for vascular disease,
either alone or in conjunction with standard treatment protocols.
PMID: 8820322 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
___________________________________________________________
Bibliografia Internazionale
  EDTA CHELATION THERAPY
 Bibliografia a cura di Stephen F. Olmstead, M.D.
Clinical Assistant Professor of Medicine Division of Cardiology
University of Washington School of Medicine
Funded in part by a grant from the A.C.A.M.
American College for the Advancement of Medicine
  A
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B
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C
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EDTA chelation therapy in the treatment of vascular disease.
http://skepdic.com/chelate.html
Advocates claim that there is ample evidence to support the claim that
chelation can prevent and cure heart disease, stroke, senility, diabetic
gangrene and many other vascular diseases. For example, the unpublished
Cypher report collected data from several physicians who used chelation to
treat patients with vascular diseases. Over 19,000 cases were studied and
about 86% showed "a significant enhancement in the arterial perfusion of the
upper and lower extremities, " according to James P. Carter, M.D., in
Racketeering in Medicine; Hippocrates Forsaken for Profit. However, the
treatments were carried out independently by different physicians and there
were no control groups. Lack of adequate controls in studies purporting to
demonstrate the effectiveness of chelation has been a consistent criticism
of skeptics. The evidence in favor of chelation as a cure for heart disease
seems to consist mainly of testimonials and subjective patient/physician
reports. Advocates claim that it is too expensive to do scientifically
controlled studies and that there is a conspiracy by the medical
establishment to prevent such studies from being undertaken. 
 come al solito :
1- " mainly of testimonials and subjective patient/physician reports "
2- " Advocates claim that it is too expensive to do scientifically
controlled studies " 
3- " Lack of adequate controls in studies " 
la solita pappa .... 
e  1160 linee di incontrollabile bibliografia 
complimentucci 


 complimentucci
falli a tutti questi dottori in medicina che la praticano :
Soci Fondatori  Soci Diplomati
BALLO Michele (Palermo)
GALEANDRO Aldo Innocente (Taranto)
MANDOLESI Sandro (Roma)
MARCHETTI Maurizio (Roma)
SANTORO Paolo (Roma)
 FERRERO Maria Elena (Milano)
MARIANI Mauro Mario (Ascoli Piceno)
Soci
Presidente Onorario
 CAIAZZO Pasquale (Napoli)
CORSELLO Serafina (New York USA)
 MANCONI Ettore (Cagliari)
  PINELLI Mauro (Avezzano)
Soci Onorari
 POGGI Paolo (Roma)
SICKENBERG Michel (Losanna-CH)
VIETTI Daniele (Milano)
 Membri
ALBERTINALE Gianluigi (Pogliano Milanese-MI)
BERTAGGIA Enrico (Milano)
BINDA Marirosa (Milano)
BIONDI Giovanna (Roma)
BOCCUZZI Gennaro (Andrano-LE)
BONGIORNO Maurizio (Fasano-BA)
BRUSCHELLI Paolo (Civitanova Marche-MC)
CALETTI Gino (Sommalombarda-VA)
CALI' Marcello (Milano)
CANOSSA Sandro (Modena)
CASAROTTO Mario (Padova)
CASSANO Giuseppe (Bari)
CENTA Carla (Padova)
CERI Angelo Roberto (Roma)
CHIMENTI Salvatore (Bari)
CINCHINI Elisabetta (Ferrara)
COSSUTTA Luigi (Trieste)
DALLONI Piero Marcello (Pescara)
DI CENSO Aida (Roma)
DI GIOSAFFATTE Rosanna (Pescara)
DI NITTO Maurizio (Gaeta-LT)
FERRANDU Teresa (Sassari)
FIKIORIS Andreas (Atene - Grecia)
FILIPPINI Franco (Siena)
FIORITO Alberto (La Spezia)
GALASSO Giuseppe (Verdellino-BG)
GARCIA MORENO Luciano Jesus (Tenerife - Spagna)
GIORDO Paolo (Grosseto)
GIUFFRIDA Giuseppe (Salerno)
GIUDICE Giuseppe (Roma)
GRECO Giuseppe (Marittima di Lecce-LE)
LOCONTE Salvatore (Andria-BA)
LOIACONO Vincenzo (Bari)
LONGHIN Pierpaolo (Torino)
MAFFEI Italo (Brindisi)
MAIRA Diego (Firenze)
MALFATTO Corrado(Genova)
MANCINI Stefano (Siena)
MEREU Ananio (Nuoro)
NOBILI Alessandro (Torino)
NOVARESIO Giuseppe (Torino)
PAPA Basilio (Roma)
PAVESI Luigi (Piacenza)
RIBERO Franco (Torino)
RICCARDI Lucia Rosaria (Roma)
RIZZATO Sante (Oderzo - TV)
ROVERE Pierfrancesco (Torino)
RUINI Daniele (Sassuolo - MO)
 SACCO Antonio (Verona)
SANDRI Ugo (Torino)
SERINI Teresa (Acquaviva - BA)
SFORZA Antonio (Bari)
SGARITO Caterina(Genova)
SIMONETTI Vincenzo (Torino)
SPAGGIARI Giorgio (Milano)
STIVALI Vincenzo (Latina)
URO BUITRAGO M.Cristina (Tenerife - Spagna)
VAKIRTZIAN Lazzaro (Creta - Grecia)
WOHLGEMUTH Christel (Roma)
ZANELLA Sante G. (Bologna)
ZUNICA Roberto (Ascoli Piceno)
 byebye KUNGA

un po' di umilta' signor so'tuttoio .....
Ma vaffanculo. Tu non sei NESSUNO, e sei l'ultima persona che può dare
consigli A ME su argomenti di chirurgia vascolare.


 consigli A ME su argomenti di chirurgia vascolare.
LEI   NON  SA  CHI  SONO   IO  !!!!!
come al solito non ti smentisci mai ... all'esame di educazione quanto hai
preso ? 30 e lode ???
non mi pare che ti abbia dato consigli sulla chirurgia vascolare ...
fatti una liposuzione di orgoglio ne hai bisogno .
KUNGA

non mi pare che ti abbia dato consigli sulla chirurgia vascolare ...
No, ehe? Si parla di aterosclerosi... E' quella malattia che affligge le
arterie del tuo cervello...
Il solo fatto che tu e gli imbecilli che promuovi possiate ritenere che
la deposizione di sali di calcio sulle placche arteriosclerotiche
rivesta qualche significato nella patogenesi della malattia è indicativo
del livello da mentecatti scientifici al quale vi trovate.


 arterie del tuo cervello...
Daaiii... Non ti arrabbiare! Si sa che č piů ignorante di una capra!
Piuttosto.... Auguri! Buon 2004!
Bye, Alessio

 del livello da mentecatti scientifici al quale vi trovate.
ancora che insulti ....
per tua conoscenza  , il sottoscritto non promuove alcunche' .
Questa terapia chelante è accettata in USA  ed anche in Italia . Non sono
maghi o fattucchiere della TV . Sono stimati professionisti nel campo medico
.
E quindi se hai le palle .... scrivi a loro ed obietta  il protocollo ...
 ciao coglione
KUNGA

 del livello da mentecatti scientifici al quale vi trovate.
le palle ce l'hai ???
allora fatti vivo qui :
6 - 7  Febbraio  2004
Policlinico  Umberto 1°
Aula del dipartimento di Scienze cardiovascolari e respiratorie  ( direttore
: Prof. Francesco Fedele )
c'è il 10° corso torico pratico di terapia chelante .
http://www.ifa.it/sitec/index2.htm
  trovi il programma completo .
Non giustificarti dicendo che non hai tempo da perdere ...
Kunga

 ciao coglione
... ahem :
a proposito di ....... tu che sei del campo ... 
l ' hai trovato il software da installare nel pc per fare le esperienze OOB 
( out of body )
e per il " free brainwave generator " 
ROTFL 
[ ce ne vuole di faccia tosta per dare di coglioni agli altri eh ! ] 
saluti orbitosi 
-- 
sgas 

 wrote in message
3g6uuvg3u3unblpc7...@4ax.com...

sgasati .... non conosci una cippa di OOBE e di brain machine e cosi'
facendo avvalori l'idea del coglione che sei .
Kunga
n.b.  campli e grande e grosso e si puo' difendere da solo ... non credo
abbia bisogno di mezze seghe come te e alessio .

facendo avvalori l'idea del coglione che sei .
l' acqua diamantina
il mago orbito 
l' esperienze fuori dal corpo
le profezie maya 
la brain machine
le smart drugs 
che altro ?
come minimo si potrebbe definirti ...ahem " folcloristico " ?
...  tira su la manica e fammi vedere il braccino
miiiii !!  vada li' che buchi !
-- 
sgas 

 wrote in message
4anuuvc404k5c3c6o...@4ax.com...

vedi caro sgas che c'è gente molto ma molto famosa che parla di certe cose
... un nome ?
il premio Nobel    Mullis
http://www3.ecplanet.com/canale/scienza-1/comunicazione-47/0/0/9235/it/chias
so_line.xml
'notte  KUNGA

il premio Nobel    Mullis
Wow! Un famoso drogato che ha parlato con gli alieni, e che ha avuto la
fortuna di inventare (nel tempo libero) una reazione chimica molto
vantaggiosa... Non c'è dubbio che Mullis sia il tuo mito...


 vantaggiosa... Non c'č dubbio che Mullis sia il tuo mito...
capisco che ci si puo' sentire dei falliti ...stare qui , come te a digitare
... mentre Mullis si scatena sulle onde del pacifico
in attesa di una notte rovente con una donna .
Per tua precisione non ho miti e se solo avessi una cultura esoterica
capiresti il perche' .
KUNGA

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:cvljuvcfekmc4btpb...@4ax.com...


Volevo chelare il mercurio e il rame
Il mercurio non vedo perche', quanto al rame... hai il morbo di
Wilson? Quello e' l'unico caso in cui e' veramente utile chelare il
rame, si usa la penicillamina.


Volevo chelare il mercurio e il rame
Mi hai scritto in privato ma la tua email risulta errata, per cui non
posso risponderti. Se vuoi ti rispondo qui (sarebbe meglio), oppure
mandami un indirizzo email funzionante.
