Newsgroup: it.sport.calcio.estero
Titolo: Re: nice job USA

 They were bullshit calls to give them cards.
Agree 

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You are both wrong
You can't make studs up two footed tackles no matter where you come in
from. Most obvious red card you'll ever see.

 from. Most obvious red card you'll ever see.
Anyone got a definite image of this supposed two-footed studs-up
tackle?


Agreed on the red card.  But most obvious ever seen?
I'd think a blatant elbow to the opponent's face with no attempt to play the 
ball -- *right in front of the ref* may just edge it for "most obvious red 
card."
;-)
~d. jettster 

 card."
Exactly.
I think the red on Mastroeni was slightly harsh - it doesn't usually get 
a red, but it does enough that it's hard to complain.
Elbow to the face like that? That draws a red every time the ref sees it.
-Ron

 wrote in rec.sport.soccer:
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You'd be right, except that the victimized player was from Team USA.
Aggravated assault and attempted murder against members of Team USA don't 
even merit a whistle for the likes of a great many posters (non-Americans, 
of course) in r.s.s.

 
It may have been a harsh call, but Mastro was an utter idiot for making 
that tackle in that situation.  I figured Pope as doomed fairly early in 
the match when it was clear he couldn't manage the speed and strength of 
the Italians and the fouls being called relatively tightly.

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http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2928/usa66rp.gif
    I don't think it's two-footed.  Mastroeni's second leg follows
through, but it looks a hell of a lot more like a late, off-the-ball
studs-up lunge at Pirlo's ankle more than anything else.  Ref's two
yards away, so he knows what's up.
ac

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i've got images showing that not only was it NOT a 2 foot studs up tackle
but that was borderline to even be a foul as he is clearly coming from the side and
he either got the ball, or was very close to getting it.  
the first image shows him making contact with the ball.
the second image shows him clearly having his second leg tucked behind him
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/zaldoworldnetattnet/my_photos

 from. Most obvious red card you'll ever see.
Almost all sliding tackles are "studs up." It's very unnatural to come
in any other way. Even if you try to point them down, they are likely
to pop up and out towards the end of your slide.

 wrote in message 
news:1150591534....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
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 wrote in message 
news:1150590843.6...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
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If it was late, he wouldn't get the ball. That's a yellow, not a red.
The Pope tackle was from behind. It was awfully close to being an automatic 
red.
dw 


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Or worse, catch a cleat -- with the ensuing sickening popping/cracking 
noise.
dw 


wrote:
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I'll agree, most sliding tackles are fouls, most sliding tackles that
aren't aimed at the ball are red cards.

There is no question he got ball first.
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 There is no question he got ball first.
SO what? Does that excuse to break a players' leg?
His foot was high, it got his ankle.
It was clearly a nasty challenge and he deserved a red card.

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Except Mastroeni got the ball, stupid.
W

 wrote in message
news:1150598220.8...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
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And he almost broke his leg with a high tackle.
Do people like you know the rules, or just pretend to be stupid?

 
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/zaldoworldnetattnet/my_photos
No offense, but I don't see how you get "making contact with the ball" 
from that first picture.
-Ron

 Except Mastroeni got the ball, stupid.
I'm a USA fan and I think you're wrong here.
From the main angle, in real time, it looked like he did. They showed a 
replay from a lower angle where it looked quite clear that he didn't.
-Ron

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No offense but his leg is UNDER the foot of the Italian so either way it 
wasn't a foul.  Not to mention it was from the side..not to mention that he 
did not have studs up.  Complete garbage call.
-- 
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham
"You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say." - President Clinton 28 May 1993
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government." -
President Clinton 5 May 1995 

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Almost broke his leg?  Mastroeni slid UNDER the Italian.  He didn't hit the 
Italians leg.  Further..his leg was so almost broken that he got up and 
walked away seconds after getting to the sideline.
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Bullshit.  He came in under the Italian.  Therefor he did not come in 
"high."
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wrote:
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His foot was on the ground. Unlike de Rossi's foul there was no intent
to injure the player. It was just an ill-judged tackle. 
In today's climate a yellow, thirty years ago not even a foul.

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i kind of go by the foot about to touch the ball in the first shot, then
the ball going off in a different direction in the second shot to show
that he got the ball.  
the shot also, btw, shows that his studs were not up

 that he got the ball.
Thanks for posting these pics. While I don't think Mastroeni got the
ball first, your shots make it clear that he was ...
1. within inches of the ball
2. approaching from the side
3. *not* coming in high
This was an overly aggressive play but by no means was it more forceful
than other challenges we've seen in every game. As a result, I don't
see how this challenge reaches the level of a red card. 
P

 Jim

 from. Most obvious red card you'll ever see.
I was reviewing the Laws of the Game, and I could not actually find 
anything that said that this kind of foul required a red card.  Or even a 
yellow.
Perhaps I missed the rule.  Can you show me the explicit wording of this 
rule?

 3. *not* coming in high
In light of the more imaginative accounts of this play in other
threads, it's probably worth adding ...
4. tackling one-footed
5. not grinning madly and crying out "Yeehaw!"
P

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This is the first time I've seen the clip.  He obviously didn't get the
ball but did get *both* of the Italian player's feet.  Why are people
complaining that this got a card?

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You didn't notice that the ball went the opposite direction after the
tackle?  The Italian player tried to put it straight ahead, and it spun
off at a 90 degree angle.

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Actually, it looks like he contacted the player's foot first, so I
think you're right.

 I'll agree, most sliding tackles are fouls,
Ok, now at least we have a framework for your assertions.

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Well ... after looking at the still shots, he clearly hit ball first.
But I would say if it takes usenet poster staring at still shots to
figure out the play, the ref is going to go with his gut instinct in
that instance ... which would be to assume that the intentions were to
take out the offensive player.

 off at a 90 degree angle.
Yeah. That's because Mastroeni caught the Italian's foot and pushed it 
THROUGH the ball. 
The movement of the ball is why I thought, in real time, that Mastroeni 
had got the ball. The closer angle replay made it clear otherwise.

 wasn't a foul. 
How do you get this?
The first photo is before Matroeni's heel hits the Italian player. The 
toes may have made contact. The Italian's toes are in the air, his heel 
is down. 
In the second photo, it's unambigous that Mastroeni's foot is on top of 
the Italian's. 
Again, I have to say that the photos don't say what you claim they say.
-Ron

 Why are people complaining that this got a card?
Got a card, or got a RED card?
Mastroeni made an over-emphatic attempt to intercept a pass. In this
World Cup, that's a garden variety yellow card. Don't believe me? So
far, there has only been one other player sent off for a reckless
challenge, and that was a head-on studs-up two-footed challenge on an
opponent who was clearly in possession of the ball.
If people seriously feel that Mastroeni's red card was clearly correct,
then they ought to be complaining bitterly about non-red-cards in a
bunch of other games.
P

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Wow.  It is pretty damned amazing that you see the actual opposite of what 
the photos show.  Downright amazing.
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You can't even read the player's number, let alone judge where the feet are. 
Good try though.
dam 

 
http://soccer-europe.com/WorldCup2006/RedCard2.jpg
What are we supposed to take from that? Seeing the name of the picture
linked above, I tried ...
http://soccer-europe.com/WorldCup2006/RedCard1.jpg
Looking at this image, I can see why people think Pablo got his tackle
in before Pirlo (even though I think he caught Pirlo's foot) ... he is
coming in very low, and his toes seem to be pointed, not flexed. This
was an aggressive challenge for a 50-50 ball, and while it was probably
too aggressive and therefore a yellow card, it simply isn't Serious
Foul Play. Soccer is a physical game.
P

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it was two footed. no debate. red card whether toes are pointed or not

 the photos show.  Downright amazing.
Look at some more photos. This one, for example, is much less blurry and 
there's no reasonable way to think it's showing Mastroeni UNDER the 
Italian's feet.
http://soccer-europe.com/WorldCup2006/RedCard2.jpg
Are you the one who said that the photo clearly showed Matroeni getting 
the ball first, despite the fact that there's clealry space between the 
boots and the ball in the photo? If so, then you should retire from 
photo analysis.
-Ron

 photo analysis.
I should probably retire from engaging in other people's disagreements,
but isn't this image from *after* Mastroeni has tackled the ball?
P

 wrote in message 
news:1150670821.0...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
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Thus far, 60% of the red cards issued in the european cup were issued in 1 
game. What's wrong with that picture?
dam 

 but isn't this image from *after* Mastroeni has tackled the ball?
No. Since he didn't get the ball. It's hard to see how he could have 
gone from getting the ball to being that high up on the outside of the 
Italian's ankle with as much force as is clear he came in with.
-Ron

I didn't go back and count the number of posts in this thread, but, if
those of you arguing about the call, ball first, foot first, one foot, two
feet, studs up, etc, can't agree in slow motion, and picture by picture,
how is video replay going to help, if ever implemented?
-- HASM

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The still shots with the zoom make it pretty clear that he got ball ...
the Italian player stepped on Mastroeni's leg while in full stride,
which is why the Italian player started to go down right away.  If I
was a ref in that situation, I'd have called it exactly the same way,
though.  Mastroeni is a victim of parallax, which is a systemic problem
in any sport where human referees are making judgement calls.
Maybe soccer could borrow from the NFL ... each coach could have one
instant replay flag per team.

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Unless we are going frame by frame in order then context makes your analysis 
suspect.
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 ~d. jettster
I cannot wait for Thursday to come and watch Ghana eliminate the 
USA so these persistent, diehard, ignorant "merkins" will finally
melt away and leave these forums for the more cognoscenti to post
intelligent views regarding futbol.

 cognoscenti to post intelligent views regarding futbol.
It's too bad the USA didn't get a pushover schedule like Group H. The 
USA would thump Spain like a rented mule.
-- 
Cheers,
--Jeff
Read the FAQ. It was wrote for idots like yew. 
http://www.rsfckers.com/faq.htm
 
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
 and I'm not sure about the former."
   --Albert Einstein

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There is nothing intelligent about America bashing Eurotrash
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