Newsgroup: it.politica
Titolo: I fascisti immaginari di Kiev

Peter Pomerantsev è un produttore della tv britannica. E' nato in Ucraina. Una trad. it. dell'articolo che presento si legge (con il titolo del subject) sull'ultimo numero di "Internazionale".
 
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n12/peter-pomerantsev/diary
 
 
Vol. 36 No. 12 · 19 June 2014
pages 42-43
 
Diary
 
Peter Pomerantsev
 
When Putin's holy war began Alexey checked himself into a psychiatric ward. He had come back to Russia in 2012 after working as a journalist in London, where we met (I had just moved to London after a decade in Moscow). The protests against Putin were cresting, and change seemed imminent. 'London is boring, everything has already happened here,' Alexey said. 'Russia is extreme but exciting. Real history is being made now.' He got a job at RIA Novosti, the state-owned news agency and beacon of Medvedev's media 'reforms', designed to prove that the Kremlin could be objective and transparent when it wanted to be. RIA's reporting was fair, its live streams of crooked trials against dissidents were a must-see. Alexey edited Ino.Smi, an online site that translates the best writing on Russia from around the world, including the most critical things about Putin you could find. But with Putin's return to the presidency the Kremlin's approach to information changed.
 
RIA Novosti was killed off and merged into Russia Today. Alexey's new boss was Dmitry Kiselev, one-time mouthpiece of perestroika who is now the mouthpiece of Holy Russia, using his primetime shows to call for the burning of homosexuals' body parts (so they don't infect potential organ recipients with gay DNA). 'My approach is somewhat theatrical,' he told Alexey and other staff on his first day, 'but I stand by every word.' RIA began to change. The live streams of trials stopped. Hope for a rebellion against the new masters faded when a poll inside the organisation showed that some two-thirds of employees didn't care what ideology prevailed: it was just a job. 'At Moscow State Journalism School they have people like Deputy Minister of Communications Volin telling students that journalism is basically a propaganda tool,' Alexey says. 'So many young hacks just shrug and accept it.' (In a speech in 2013 Volin had said that students should be given 'a clear understanding that they are going to work for the Boss, and the Boss will tell them what to write, what not to write and how this or that thing should be written, and the Boss has the right to do it, because he pays them.')
 
Kiselev would wear orange trousers and bright green socks to work. His shows warned that paedophiles were taking over the EU; that it's normal in Sweden for nine-year-olds to have sex but by 12 they are impotent. Alexey began to have trouble sleeping. He drank more. The people who worked for him wanted to know what the future held but he had no answer. He started having panic attacks on his way to the office. He drank to get over them, which didn't help. Then he added antidepressants. One night he went on a booze-pill binge and woke up blue and mumbling in hospital. He booked himself into a psychiatric treatment-and-research department in the north of Moscow.
 
I realised Alexey was in a hospital ward when I saw the photos he was posting on Facebook: 'Welcome to my new home,' he joked. It seemed fitting that my Facebook feed was filling up with posts from a mental institution. As the conflict over Ukraine intensified my social media feeds became more and more unsettling. Acquaintances from Moscow, the 'creatives' who make up the semi-mythical Russian middle class - that normally apolitical but vaguely anti-Putin iPhone crowd who'd joined the protests in 2011 and 2012 - were suddenly frothing with patriotic passion. I imagined myself in some downmarket horror movie where you wake to find your neighbours are vampires, with little ultra-patriotic bite marks on their necks.
 
The early symptoms often took the form of harmless scepticism about the protests in Ukraine and whether they were genuine. 'Who is behind the Maidan?' people would write, or they'd say: 'Those poor Ukrainians are being taken for a ride.' Soon the conspiracy-mongering got worse. 'It's clear the West is behind all these events,' Eduard Boyakov, the bohemian head of Russia's most avant-garde theatre festival, wrote. 'Absolutely obvious.' I didn't pay much attention at first. A conspiratorial mind-set is the default of Putinism, inherited from the late Soviet period: 'Perestroika came much too late,' Alexander Yakovlev, one of Gorbachev's mentors, remembered. 'The years of social stagnation almost killed social idealism ... sowing cynicism, disbelief and social lassitude.' In the 1990s this attitude was strengthened by reforms that weren't reforms, and kept going by the creation of puppet political parties and fake civil society bodies which no one takes at face value.
 
Chicago University Press
The Kremlin has, however, become adept at turning Russian scepticism towards their rulers to its own advantage, actively promoting a conspiracy-driven view of everything that happens in the world. Once you stop trusting your own institutions you're easily convinced that everything, everywhere is a sham and that events are directed by a hidden hand. Russian TV is full of chat shows about Scientologists in cahoots with Greek-Catholics and Masons to take over the Russian near-abroad, or Swedes who want to avenge their defeat at the hands of Peter the Great (that pearl came from Kiselev). It's hard to find anyone who takes this stuff literally, but it helps to create a climate in which conspiracy becomes the norm. The Ukrainian crisis has also triggered other, far less savoury associations. At one point my wife clicked on a series of Facebook posts by an old (Russian) schoolmate showing pictures of a blood-splattered American eagle with the tag: 'The Americans first killed the Red Indians - now they're interested in Ukraine.' This was fairly standard, but a little later Mr Burns from The Simpsons morphed into Lord Rothschild. The line read: 'You know who is behind it all.'
 
The Kremlin celebrated the annexation of Crimea with fireworks - and the fervour on my Facebook feed grew. Eduard Limonov, a great writer who in the 1970s wrote frankly of his homosexual experiences and went on to become a hard-core anti-Putin revolutionary, was now encouraging Putin to expand the invasion and 'harden the metal while it is still hot'. Now was the moment for Moscow's Pounds and Marinettis to emerge as cheerleaders of the new imperialism. Former cultural heroes - mine anyhow - signed a public letter of support for Crimean 'reunification'. 'This guy came from the Culture Ministry and said if I didn't sign I'd lose my band,' one musician explained. 'What could I do?'
 
Post-annexation, as the ground was being laid for a potential military push into east Ukraine, the emphasis shifted away from conspiracy and fervour towards the humiliation of the enemy. 'Ukrainians don't really exist, they're not a real nation,' people wrote. It was easy for the Kremlin to tap the rich tradition of Russian chauvinism where Ukraine - 'Little Russia' - is concerned. It can take patronising forms, as in Ivan Bunin's 'Little Russia has no history ... it has only songs, legends, it is somehow outside of time'; or it can be more insulting, as in Joseph Brodsky's (unpublished but publicly performed) poem about foolish 'hohli' - the pejorative term for Ukrainians - and their 'gibberish' national poetry. But the language and imagery were more sombre in internet gifs and jokes. Ukrainians were portrayed as prostitutes, whoring themselves to the Kremlin or the EU. This seemed a deliberate flip on the cliché of Kiev as 'the mother of Russian cities': in order to break the deep emotional bond with Kiev, the mother had to be debased. When I looked for the social-media roots of this mother/whore configuration I found it was regularly reinforced by Kremlin spin doctors such as Konstantin Rykov. Rykov also liked to refer to Ukrainians who had been on the Maidan as Mai-Downs (as in Down's syndrome), hammering home the idea of Ukrainians as Untermenschen. Rykov, who once produced the Russian version of Pop Idol, is one of the many political technologists working the internet. A common myth about social media is that it's a priori a tool of liberation, taking publishing out of the hands of power. But Facebook and Twitter are a perfect vehicle for postmodern authoritarian regimes that focus on opposition narratives instead of simply suppressing them. You can switch off the TV, but you can't stop a political technologist getting inside social media and generating memes from within.
 
Then came the fire in Odessa, where more than forty pro-Russian separatists were killed after being attacked by a crowd of pro-Ukrainians. Everyone was sharing photos of charred bodies, limbs suspended in mid-motion, hands trying to cover burned-off faces. A woman who looked pregnant lay asphyxiated on a desk, her belly hanging loose ('her child will never be born,' someone wrote, but it turned out that she was merely overweight). Among the colour shots of charred bodies in Odessa there were black and white photos of naked, murdered and wounded women and children, slaughtered by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army in 1943 in Volhyn, as if the massacre constituted an eternal judgment on the Ukrainian character. From Volhyn to Odessa. The term 'Euro-Auschwitz' began to gain currency. 'As the building burned, fascists beat the survivors ... There will be a terrible rise in anti-Semitism ... Let's not pretend hundreds of angry people carrying bats are anything but fascists,' the film director Alexey German Junior said. German, like many others, failed to mention the many Ukrainians who also helped separatists get away from the fire, or that the separatists had shot and killed people taking part in a pro-Ukrainian march. The point isn't so much the truth of what happened (the inquiry into the fire is ongoing: I have no evidence and nor does anyone else online) as the eagerness with which the event was woven into the Kremlin narrative, as if it came as a relief to throw up one's hands and agree that the Ukrainians were archetypally evil, and it was fine to invade their country.
 
Conversation between Muscovites and friends in Kiev became difficult.
 
'Are you safe from the fascists?' the Russians would ask.
 
'What fascists?' the Kiev residents asked.
 
'Those fascists,' their friends replied.
 
'What fascists?'
 
In 1996, when Yeltsin's spin doctors helped him win re-election by conjuring fears of a fascist menace, the propaganda was vague, playing on fuzzy fears. Now it was alleging specific facts. What will happen when people begin to realise it isn't true? When they visit relatives in Kiev and see that Russian speakers aren't at risk, that everyone is speaking Russian; that, yes, there are some alarming right-wingers (polling currently at around 2 per cent), but the country hasn't been taken over by a fascist junta?
 
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In a more open political system when the general public is forced to swallow a lie in order to justify a war, one can grope towards recovery by electing a new president, one who opposed the lie, but even then it takes time. What do you do when you can't get rid of the liars? Will the anger quietly fade away? Ever since the Kremlin recognised the Ukrainian elections the rants on social media have been dwindling: it's as if someone somewhere had turned off a tap. My Moscow friends are posting cats and culture again. The default mode - cynical, worldly-wise - is back: 'Ha, the Ukrainians got rid of one oligarch in order to elect another!' Or: 'Yanukovych and Poroshenko even look the same!' The snide tone came as a relief - until I received a message from my cousin in New Jersey.
 
'Oh my God', she wrote, 'fascists have taken over Kiev!'
 
This was new. My cousin never mentions politics. Like me, she is from a Russian-speaking Jewish family who left the Ukrainian SSR in the late 1970s, but I've never known her give a thought to the old country until now. I told her she was misinformed. A few days later she wrote again, this time about attacks on synagogues in Ukraine. I told her local rabbis denied it. I was troubled: my cousin, or someone near her, seemed to be trawling for information which proved that Ukrainians were Nazis. I asked where she was getting her information. She said it came through the Russian émigré grapevine on the East Coast, where they have their own radio and TV stations. Not long afterwards, another friend whose family is in Eastern Europe posted the assertion that '33 per cent of the Maidan are Nazis.'
 
Could all this, I wondered, have something to do with a Jewish émigré memory of Ukraine? For those of us who grew up hearing stories of pogroms, Ukrainian nationalism and anti-Semitism are almost indissociable. My grandmother used to tell stories her mother had told her about how, during the Civil War, Jewish children would run through Ukrainian towns shouting: 'Er Kommt! Er Kommt!' 'Er' referred to the image of Jesus on the crosses carried by the pogrom gangs. In today's Ukraine, Jews and Ukrainians have pretty much made peace (even Jews and right-wing nationalists pay lip-service to getting along). But in the diaspora old fears still resonate.
 
When she wasn't repeating news from Brighton Beach my New Jersey cousin was sending me links to the Guardian. Comment is Free has become well known for its references to the Ukrainian fascist takeover. My Kiev friends began to message me, looking for an explanation: 'Is Seumas Milne in the pay of the Kremlin?' they would ask. Probably not, I said. 'It all fits into a larger pattern of English racism towards Eastern Europeans,' Oksana Forostyna, executive editor of the Ukrainian cultural magazine Krytyka, told me. She too spoke of the Ukrainians as 'the new Untermenschen who get called whores and fascists. All those English jokes and novels about Ukrainian sluts; the weird fixation you had during Euro 2012 that Ukraine was full of neo-Nazi hooligans - there was even a BBC documentary warning football fans not to come - when in truth there are fewer racist attacks in Ukraine than in Britain ... Now Putin can play on those prejudices.'
 
This strange complicity with the Kremlin's cause was the theme of a lecture I gave to students in Lviv in the midst of the crisis, with Russian troops massed on the border and the threat of outright invasion very real. 'Do many believe the English editorials about Ukrainian fascists?' the students asked. I said I thought outright lies were eventually disproved but prejudicial memes were tougher. We looked at how disillusionment with the EU was used to clobber Ukraine's European aspirations. 'To avoid facing up to its own inexorable decline, the postmodern EU ... has plunged ahead with a radically anti-Russian geopolitical and ideological agenda based on left-wing fantasies about resurgent nationalism in Moscow,' John Laughland wrote in the Spectator (the magazine didn't mention that Laughland's think-tank was set up by Kremlin-connected officials). We went over texts by former British ambassadors such as Tony Brenton who lean towards a vision of the world which is forever Yalta, and where London and Moscow divide up Central Europe. 'It is a fond delusion,' Brenton wrote in the Financial Times, 'that big states no longer decide the destinies of small states in this way.' Whichever narrative path we took, it seemed to lead somewhere bad for the Ukrainian students.
 
After the lecture I walked through Lviv. It is a beautiful city, still just this side of being ruined by tourism, and before I knew it I was lost in a labyrinth of cobblestones, arches, alleys and spires. It was late - and dark - and I had no idea where my hotel was. Ahead of me were some young men. I started to approach them to ask the way in Russian - I don't know Ukrainian. But as I opened my mouth to speak I stopped. Wasn't Lviv, I suddenly thought to myself with alarm, the place where some 30 per cent had voted for the right-nationalist Svoboda party in the last parliamentary elections? Sure, some might say this was a protest vote, or even that Yanukovych was boosting Svoboda to make himself look more of a centrist by contrast, but people had still voted for them. And hadn't I seen a photograph somewhere of two of their MPs, red-faced and drunk, holding up cloakroom numbers which signified Hitler's birthday? And what about all those stories I'd seen online about Russian speakers being abused, even beaten for speaking their native language?
 
Chicago University Press
Turning back would have looked odd, so I tried to walk briskly and give the young men a wide berth, but as I drew closer, I realised they were speaking Russian themselves. I relaxed and asked the way. As I walked back to the hotel I noticed most of the people who were still out were speaking Russian. I too had fallen prey to Kremlin propaganda. I wondered what other propaganda odds and ends I'd internalised - propaganda of any kind, on behalf of any cause - without noticing.
 
'The only thing to do if you want to stay sane in this war is quit social media,' Alexey said when I Skyped him. He was out of the psychiatric ward and now felt it was the sanest place in Moscow: 'I met some really interesting people. There was a physics professor. A guy who had snorted cocaine for 66 days straight and liked to show off the hole in his nose. We just talked about our health. Nothing about politics.' But after three weeks in the ward he'd felt no better. 'All they can treat there is schizophrenia. They kept asking whether I heard voices. When I said I didn't the doctor lost interest and went off to find a patient who did.' He quit his job at RIA/Russia Today and moved out to the country, to a small dacha 20 kilometres from Moscow; he cycles, barbecues, sunbathes and gardens. 'I switched Twitter on the other week and saw that the dissident journalist Masha Baronova was in Donetsk,' he told me. 'There was a shower of abuse from Russians calling her a traitor. And then the Ukrainians went after her, calling her a provocateur. Christ. The Ukrainians are at it too now.' Alexey is not rushing back to broadcasting. He will stay at the dacha until the end of summer. Maybe things will be better when the hot months are over. He says he doesn't regret returning to Russia in 2012, though it turned out a little more stressful than he'd imagined.

 Peter Pomerantsev è un produttore della tv britannica.
 
Una fonte autorevole! Ovviamente. :-)
Namib, vogliamo fare a chi piscia piu' lontano nei c&i?
E allora produttore tv per giornalista britannico, ascolta
Mark Franchetti  che interviene a Shuster Live, il più importante
talk show della televisione Ucraina. E getta lo sconcerto in studio
con le sue risposte che mettono in grande imbarazzo l'intervistatore, chiaramente schierato pro-Kiev. Franchetti autore di un reportage 
dall'Ucraina orientale, descrive i filo-russi come "persone normali, assolutamente convinte di difendere le loro case dai fascisti" e 
smentisce i suoi interlocutori sulla presenza di infiltrati 
russi: "posso solo parlare di quello che ho visto con i miei 
occhi", afferma via Skype, lasciando ancora più sconcertati i suoi interlocutori.
http://www.pandoratv.it/?p=1334
 
 
Oppure che ne dici di questo miserabile dialogo dell'orrore?
http://www.pandoratv.it/?p=1322
 
 
Insomma Namib, sei stato per caso contagiato dai c&i di Coltrane?
 
brif
 
 
 
 
 
 

 Insomma Namib, sei stato per caso contagiato dai c&i di Coltrane?
 
Il c&i è un'istituzione di Usenet, e, quando è usato con oculatezza, può fungere da ottima rassegna stampa. P.S. Nulla da dire sul quadro dell'informazione russa tracciato da Pomerantsev?

 Il c&i è un'istituzione di Usenet, e, quando è usato con oculatezza, può fungere da ottima rassegna stampa. 
__________
Ah! Rassegna stampa del produttore TV basata su racconti, leggende
e sentito dire?
_________________
P.S. Nulla da dire sul quadro dell'informazione russa tracciato da Pomerantsev?
_________________
E' molto peggio di quanto scrive il "produttore". Se vuoi ti do una mano! :-)
 
brif

 da tempo?
 
In questo momento, Kiev è la legalità, Mosca il banditismo. E lo testimonia l'ONU, salvo volersi cercare fonti "autonome" (e creative) del DI.

 In questo momento, Kiev è la legalità, Mosca il banditismo. E lo testimonia l'ONU, salvo volersi cercare fonti "autonome" (e creative) del DI.
 
E no carino (2)! :-) Rispondi alla domanda.
Chi ha armato e arma le milizie di Kiev? Chi gli da i quattrini per aggredire
la Russia nei propri interessi?
Ammesso e non concesso che Kiev sia nella legalita' (barzelletta...) armare Kiev
contro la Russia non e' banditismo?
Facciamo le verginelle?
 
brif

 contro la Russia non e' banditismo?
 
Contro la Russia? Oibò! Mi stai dicendo che *entro i confini ucraini* operano *soldati regolari* russi? E che *per questo* la Russia è aggredita dall'Ucraina in Ucraina? :))) Che cos'è? Un'esame di controtopologia applicata? :)))

 Non sono interessato alla "democrazia".
 
e allora perchè cerchi invano di nascondere i crimini abietti dei tuoi eroi dietro una presunta elezione democratica (così democratica che il voto era messo in scatole...DI VETRO, ovvero visibile a chiunque, alla faccia del principio fondamentale della segretezza del voto!)

 Contro la Russia? Oibò! Mi stai dicendo che *entro i confini ucraini* operano *soldati regolari* russi? E che *per questo* la Russia è aggredita dall'Ucraina in Ucraina? :))) Che cos'è? Un'esame di controtopologia applicata? :)))
 
Forse ti sfugge che le armate di Kiev hanno colpito il territorio russo e passato piu' volte il confine!
Per ora Kiev sta massacrando russi ucraini che si sono dichiarati indipendenti.
Vedremo come finira'.
 
 
brif

 sei spudorato 
 
:-)
 
brif

Il giorno domenica 29 giugno 2014 21:09:31 UTC+2, brif ha scritto:
 
ma perchè continui a discutere con una persona così in malafede che non ha vergogna di negare l'evidenza della presenza massiccia (anche in armi, chè i mercenari yankee sono lì da mesi e mesi) degli yankee nel golpe in nome di un presunto non interesse americano a destabilizzare i confini della Russia?
 

 
Ma no! :-)
Namib vede i cattivi tutti da una parte.
In questo caso, i russi.
Lo apprezzo, ma alcune volte perde di vista lo scenario completo
e si perde nel particolare.
La questione Ucraina impatta su interessi USA e Russia, l'UE 
e' un convitato di pietra.
La "guerra", quella vera e quella nelle  stanze dei servizi o 
delle cancellerie, e' dura.
Attaccarsi all'infiltrato russo e' fuorviante.
 
Chi ci perde, cmq, alla fine e' l'Italia.
Come ha detto alla Camera la deputata Massagrande di M5S.
 
Su Coltrane non mi sbilancio. Preferisco leggere i giornali 
sul web ;-)
 
brif
 
 

 merdosi. Coltrane � il suo degno compare di merende.
 
Quoto.
 

 Lo apprezzo
 
io no. Perchè tutto quello che dice sarebbe incontestabile se premettesse "io odio i russi e pertanto chiunque faccia loro del male è benvenuto, mentre non lo è chi li difende. Fatta questa premessa, farò cherry picking di tutto quello che si accomoda a questa tesi, e tralascerò tutto il resto."
Con una premessa del genere, può scrivere quello che gli pare. Ma non può comportarsi conformemente a tale premessa e millantare che il suo pregiudizio è un giudizio basato sui FATTI (il maiuscolo è suo), o peggio ancora, che il suo è un giudizio da comunista!

 io no. Perchè tutto quello che dice sarebbe incontestabile se premettesse "io odio i russi e pertanto chiunque faccia loro del male è benvenuto, 
 
cut
 
Allora odia anche me? ;-)
 
Forse non gli e' "simpatico" Putin, ma non credo che abbia sentimenti di odio
verso il popolo russo.
Che peraltro ama e ammira l'Italia!
Potrebbe forse trattarsi di una inconscia rivalsa contro chi ha tradito 
il comunismo! :-)))
 
brif

 Che peraltro ama e ammira l'Italia!
 
non sono convinto che Namib ami l'Italia, altrimenti non farebbe il tifo per i nazisti ucraini, che sono talmente sicuri dell'impunità e sono così irrilevanti, che lanciano minacce di morte a chi osa mostrare le loro imprese come quelle di Odessa, anche qui in Italia.
http://espresso.repubblica.it/internazionale/2014/05/27/news/nicolai-lilin-denuncia-la-strage-di-odessa-e-viene-minacciato-dagli-ucraini-in-italia-1.167099
 

 Vedremo come finira'.
 
Io sto con la legalità, non perché "esista in natura", ma perché conviene.

 
Su questo hai ragione.
Tant'e' che la Russia non aveva riconosciuto l'autodeterminazione del Kosovo.
Come peraltro la Spagna, che ha problemi in Catalogna.
Insomma come vedi, cerca di non essere rigido nelle tue asserzioni.
SCusa, ma devo andare.
Concludo quando posso.
 
brif


 E un paese squassato da una guerra civile, e' per te tutto regolare?  
 
Cumulo un po' di risposte, e domande, da tutto il thread, perche' mi scuserete 
ma seguirvi tra 230 commenti, thread e sottothread e' un tantino complicato.
 
- Accusi Namib di fornire una versione di parte perche' riporta il commento di 
una fonte inglese. Mi fa un po' specie venendo da uno che ha riportato 
esclusivamente commenti e fonti di una delle due parti in causa.
 
- Sostieni che la Corte etc etc etc "AFFERMA" che il referendum in Crimea e' 
stato legale. Non mi risulta che la corte si sia espressa a riguardo, magari mi 
sbaglio, mi risulta che la corte non affermi, ma sia tu a dedurre per 
implicazione basandoti sul caso del Kosovo. Non e' proprio la stessa cosa.
 
- Sostieni che le elezioni in Ucraina sarebbero viziate, implicando che siano 
irregolari o non valide, perche' c'e' la guerra civile. ORa, non mi risulta che 
si spari in strada a Kiev, e non mi risulta che a nessuno, incluse le citta' 
filorusse, sia stato impedito di votare. Su cosa basi le tue deduzioni? Inoltre, 
posso sapere perche' le elezioni con una "guerra civile" che colpisce solo 
alcune citta' sarebbero irregolari, mentre un referendum con 26000 militari per 
strada, in un'area come la Crimea, non ti ha fatto assolutamente un baffo, anzi, 
i militari armati per strada erano una garanzia di democraticita'?
 
- Sostieni ed hai sostenuto che "la piazza" ed il governo erano composti da 
nazisti, ultra' di destra, etc etc. Alla prova dei fatti, l'80% del governo non 
era di Pravij Sektor o simili, ed alle elezioni hanno preso il 2%. Cos'e', hanno 
cambiato tutti idea?
 
- Altra dichiarazione, che il popolo ucraino si sarebbe fatto abbindolare da 4 
gatti, quel 2%, durante la rivolta. Ecco, io sta storia delle persone superiori 
che si permettono di giudicare come idioti creduloni decine di migliaia di 
persone esclusivamente perche' non la pensano come loro, piu' la sento e piu' me 
ne sento lontano. Non ero d'accordo nemmeno quando lo si sosteneva nei confronti 
di chi votava Berlusconi, non lo sono qua. 
 
Diffido istintivamente dei geni che si ritengono superiori ed in grado di 
giudicare "il popolo", come fate spesso tu e Giovannino, che ci vuoi fare?
 
saluti
mm
 

 io no. Perch� tutto quello che dice sarebbe incontestabile se premettesse "io odio i russi
 
E perch� dovrei odiare i russi, imbecille?
 
-- 
Namib
---
Ces� todo, y d�jeme (Juan de la Cruz)
 
--- news://
freenews.netfront.net/
 - complaints: 
ne...@netfront.net
 ---

 e' indescrivibile per chi lo ha vissuto.
Speriamo lo debbano pagare caro. "
 
"Chi rappresenta il Donbass?
Quelle teste di cazzo che giocano all'etnia. Peggio per loro."
 
e che ha questo rispetto per quello che i russi pensano di se stessi
"L'autopercezione (drogata da mass media non liberi e da politici vassalli) dei russi non rileva""
 
insomma, ti auguri un genocidio di russi (perchè NEL MONDO REALE questa è la traduzione di "la devono pagare cara"), e poi dici che quello che pensano i russi di se stessi non conta un cazzo, ma non li odi...NOOOO!
Sei un MERDA FASCISTA, ammettilo e piantala di diffamare i comunisti dicendo che ne sei parte

 giudicare "il popolo", come fate spesso tu e Giovannino
 
e che ci vuoi fare se questi giudizi del popolo di Namib invece non ti fanno diffidare per niente...
 
"> Il tripudio di Sebastopolie' indescrivibile per chi lo ha vissuto.
NAMIB; Speriamo lo debbano pagare caro. "
 
"Chi rappresenta il Donbass?
NAMIB: Quelle teste di cazzo che giocano all'etnia. Peggio per loro."
 
"L'autopercezione (drogata da mass media non liberi e da politici vassalli) dei russi non rileva""
 
anche tu ti auguri il genocidio dei crimeani e del popolo del Donbass?

 anche tu ti auguri il genocidio dei crimeani e del popolo del Donbass?
 
Mi fai vedere dove l'avrei scritto? Visto che ho attaccato brif proprio perche' 
si e' augurato la morte degli ucraini?
 
Tanto per ricapitolare, la tua risposta alle mie domande e' chiedermi conto di 
quanto scritto da altri? A posto, grazie ed alla prossima.
 
saluti
mm 
 
 

 anche tu ti auguri il genocidio dei crimeani e del popolo [rectius: "po-pollo", NdN] del Donbass?
 
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

Il giorno lunedì 30 giugno 2014 14:18:13 UTC+2, Marco Minardi ha scritto:
 
no, tu hai scritto che diffidi di chi dà i giudizi sui popoli, e poi hai citato solo me e Brif. Visto che Namib ha scritto ben di peggio che semplici giudizi sui russi, diffidi anche dei suoi giudizi, o no?
 
La risposta è semplice

 A
 
Namib, mi fia un riassunto veloce della biografia di questo imbecille?
Grazie.
-- 
"non ho aperto un account LinkedIn proprio per impedire
che ci arriviate con le zampacce vostre..."
(Pegasus, add� 16 dicembre 2013)
 

 Namib, mi fia un riassunto veloce della biografia di questo imbecille?
 
sei così intelligente che non sei in grado di rsipondere nemmeno a un imbecille senza coprirti di ridicolo con la fallacia dell'ad hominem?

 Grazie.
 
Maddài che lo conosci. L'hai chiamato "Bombacci"... E cmq è uno che ha il cuore al posto giusto (un compagno vero - ahimè -, ma un compagno che sbaglia parecchio; oh, sbaglio parecchio pure io) e il cervello al posto sbagliato. Càpita. Devo dire, però, che, dovendo scegliere, preferisco chi ha il cuore al posto sbagliato e il cervello al posto giusto. Dixi.

 
SETTIMA CAZZATA
Non giudico nessuno.
Sei tu che estrapoli da un mio discorso di strumentalizzazione della piazza - e studiate per d..! - e ritieni che ci siano geni giudicanti
 
 
Cmq,
non una parola su:
dialogo Nulad-Pyatt
miliardi di US$ entrati in Ucraina da USA prima del golpe
pellegrinaggi continui a Kiev di vicecapo CIA, vice presidente USA
Centinaia di foto sugli assalitori di Odessa
accordo stracciato da Yatsenyuk il giorno successivo alla sottoscrizione con Y., Polonia, Germania.
bombardamenti di civili e bambini nel donbass
ecc.
ecc.
ecc.
 
Stammi bene.
brif
 

 La risposta ï¿œ semplice
 
Infatti.
 
saluti
mm
 
 
 

pellegrinaggi continui a Kiev di vicecapo CIA, vice presidente USA 
 
dopo il golpe, anche del capo. E guarda caso, le violenze peggiori avvengono subito dopo la partenza di questi signori, come se il governo rispondesse a...
ma no, questo è complottismo...
 
http://www.eastjournal.net/ucraina-kiev-costretta-alla-guerra-in-cambio-dei-prestiti-un-ricatto-del-fmi/42245
 

 di frasi (che en passant NON condivido)
 
bene, tolto tutto il tarabaralla una risposta l'hai data. Grazie.

 mi risulta che in italiano cancellare qualcosa significhi farlo scomparire.
 
A me invece risulta che in tytti i thread cutti tutto quello a cui no 
nsei in grado di rispondere e che contraddice i tuoi "ragionamenti".


 Maddài che lo conosci. L'hai chiamato "Bombacci"
 
Su IPI ho chiesto a un certo utente se è stato lui a fornire quel soprannome a F., e quell'utente è intervenuto due volte in quel topic (quindi l'ha letto sicuramente), nessuna delle quali è una smentita della mia ipotesi. 
Sai fare 2+2 o ti serve un aiuto?


parli di me?
 
mai avuto il (dis)piacere di contatti privati con l'alemannico.

 della mia ipotesi.Sai fare 2+2 o ti serve un aiuto?
 
Oltre che cretino sei anche paranoico?
 
Non ti e' venuta in mente l'ipotesi piu' sensata, ossia che io lurko ipi?



Mi riferivo alla Russia.
I russi amano l'Italia.
Almeno, per quanto mi riguarda, da fine ottocento! :-)
 
brif

 insomma, ti auguri un genocidio di russi (perchè NEL MONDO REALE questa è la traduzione di "la devono pagare cara"), e poi dici che quello che pensano i russi di se stessi non conta un cazzo, ma non li odi...NOOOO!
cut
 
In effetti Namib ha esagerato!
E mi dispiace molto.
Indirettamente mi augura la morte.
E da lui - non dal cazzone Salvini - il malagurio e' pesante!
 
Cmq, io sto attento!! :-)))
 
brif

 bombardamenti di civili e bambini nel donbass
 
Peccato che io le uccisioni di civili le abbia condannate, da ambo le parti, 
rifiutando esplicitamente anche il concetto del siamo in guerra.
E che quando l'ho fatto, di fronte alla constatazione di civili non filorussi 
morti, mi sia sentito rispondere "troppo pochi".
 
Uno dei tuoi momenti piu' bassi, e questo si e' un giudizio.
 
saluti
mm
 
 
 

 Non ti e' venuta in mente l'ipotesi piu' sensata, ossia che io lurko ipi?
 
volevo essere benevolo nei tuoi confronti. Grazie di avermi dimostrato che sbagliavo!

 che sbagliavo!
 
Di grazia, cosa ci sarebbe di negativo nel leggere cio' che succede su un ng?
Con parole tue, se la cosa ti rende piu' semplice dare una risposta nel merito.


 nsei in grado di rispondere
 
nel caso in questione, Minardi rispondeva a Brif e faceva domande A LUI, dandogli del tu. Anzi, in alcuni paragrafi le domande non c'erano proprio. In ogni caso, si rivolgeva sempre direttamente a lui.
Alla fine delle sue osservazioni, tira in mezzo me attribuendomi falsamente una pretesa di giudicare il popolo ucraino (mai fatto, io ho sempre condannato il governo oligarchico e la teppaglia nazista di cui si serve, MAI il popolo ucraino!).
C'è un motivo sensato per cui io dovrei rispondere ad altro che alla frase in cui mi ha tirato in mezzo?

 Di grazia, cosa ci sarebbe di negativo nel leggere cio' che succede su un ng?
 
visto che lo fai per cercare informazioni personali, e quindi per fare attacchi ad personam, il negativo è che evidentemente non ti ritieni in grado di discutere altrimenti.

 grado di discutere altrimenti.
 
Veramente quello che dimostra di no navere argomenti cuttando tutti i 
post a cui no nsa come rispondere sei tu, Bomby.


 aabbia mai mancato di rispetto.
 
A parte che il termine ragazzo va preso in senso amichevole, e non e' vecchio rincoglionito, ne' bimbo,  ho letto un post sulle Cascine in cui qualcuno ha scritto che faccio schifo o perlomeno il senso era quello.
 
Valutando cmq l'inutilità del dialogo, e la tua permalosita' ti lascio alle tue convinzioni senza fonti! Sicuramente migliori delle mie.
 
Addio.
 
brif

 Addio.
 
Affari tuoi se non vuoi rispondere, evitiamo il melodramma da due spicci.
 
saluti
mm
 

 no?
 
Certamente, e' in inglese e quindi "e' imparziale per forza"!!!!
 
Minardi, quando inizio a rispondere, non leggo tutto il post.
Ma rispondo pezzo per pezzo.
Pero' se qualcuno esagera con le cazzate o con la malafede o con 
affermazioni idiote - come questa che fai - mbe' allora mi stufo e chiudo.
Non ho veramente tempo.
Prima di chiudere, ti ripeto che TI HO INVITATO A VEDERE RUSSIA TODAY  e i tanti siti/filmati (che mi dici di Pandora?) sulla questione Ucraina/Crimea  e ******DIRMI DOVE EVIDENZI***** le tue improbabili partigianerie.
In particolare, ti ho chiesto di postarmi scene di disappunto e rifiuto dopo l'esito del referendum a Sebastopoli.
 
Ma ormai e' tardi.
 
Stammi bene \.
 
brif

 Tu, voi, vedete soltanto la perfida Russia.
 
Dal mio post precedente: "Per esempio leggendo i miei post quando dico che so 
benissimo che e' una lotta di potere economico, invece di ignorarlo e ripetermi 
all'ossesso che US e UE hanno interessi economici."
 
Concetto ripetuto anche nel post precedente, in cui condanno gli ucraini per le 
uccisioni indegne che hanno fatto.
 
Ora, visto che non vedo il senso di leggere il post di una persona che non legge 
quello che scrivo o non lo caga minimamente, mi fermo qua, ti saluto e ti lascio 
continuare a parlar da solo.
Quello ti viene benissimo.
 
saluti
mm
 
 


 
 
Come si puo' odiare una come Maria Sharapova?
 
:-D
 
 
 
 
-- 
Greganti sospeso dal Pd dopo lï¿½arre -
sto per Expo. Un altro a parametro
zero in vista del prossimo mercato
 
www.spinoza.it
 


 
-- 
Lex Tutor
L'Asilo Infantile di Bofhland� � un argomento che sar� oggetto
di un libro di prossima pubblicazione, quindi sto discutendo
di una questione che mi interessa per finalit� di ricerca