Newsgroup: it.politica
Titolo: Freeport UK

Il governo inglese ha pubblicato il suo tariffario per i dazi, in caso che si esci dallo EU alla fine del mese.
 
Sorprendentamente il piano si azzera i dazi su quasi tutto i prodotti. L'ecezzione si poi scrivere sui mani:
 
Beni alimentare....Prodotti specifici come Gorgonzola e Olio di Olive sono senza dazi, mentre produtti generici e industriale tipo formaggio industriale generico e Corn oil hanno dei dazi.
 
Auto....Fissato a 10% ovvero come auto importato allo EU; analisti credono che il scopo é di fare un eventuale accordo EU/UK per azzerrare questo, visto che cosi sara conviniente per ambedue.
 
Abbigliamento e certi tipi di ceramici. Per qualché motivi i dazi rimane come quelli attuale extra-eu, ma anché qui forse il scopo é per accordi appena dopo l'uscita.
 
Per il resto...zero!
 
 
 
...o quasi....per qualché strano motivo ci sia rimasto un dazi di 7.5% sui assi di ferro di stiro :D
 

 Sorprendentamente il piano si azzera i dazi su quasi tutto i prodotti. 
 
Magari diciamole tutte: aumentano i dazi sui prodotti europei (prima l'esenzione era 100% adesso sara' 80%), aumenta l'esenzione sui prodotti extra EU (prima l'esenzione era al 60%, cresce all'85%).
 
Peccato che:
- il provvedimento e' TEMPORANEO, secondo la proposta, e vale solo ed unicamente fino a che nuovi accordi verranno stipulati, visto che NIENTE e' stato ancora fatto, nonostante le promesse dei brexiter
- il provvedimento dev'esser discusso ed approvato
- i beni extra EU i cui dazi sono stati ridotti hanno maggiori spese di trasporto, com'e' logico, che si ripercuotono sul prezzo finale
 
In particolare, con la nuova proposta i beni esenti da dazi saranno l'87%, mentre prima erano l'82%, altro che "azzera i dazi su quasi tutto i prodotti"
 
Vedo che ancora si sparano balle, come quella dei 350 milioni che dopo l'uscita dall'EU sarebbero piovuti sulla NHS. O la storia che "le esportazioni sarebbero esplose" (deficit commerciale peggiorato dal 2016 ad oggi).
 
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saluti
cm

 Vedo che ancora si sparano balle,
 
Chi sparra balle? Io o lei? Decidetevi voi perche il documento ufficiale si poi vedere qui (to consiglio a fast forward a circa pagine 847 dove inizia le tabelle......500+ pagine di 0%)
 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/785554/Tariff_Reference_Document_12_March_2019.pdf
 
 
BTW, nello UK l'entrate dalle dazi sono 3 milliardi all'anno, della quale 75% viene versato allo EU.

 BTW, nello UK l'entrate dalle dazi sono 3 milliardi all'anno, della quale 75% viene versato allo EU.
 
E allora? Cosa serve sparare numeri a caso che non c'entrano minimamente con quello di cui stiamo parlando?
 
Il concetto e' di una semplicita' disarmante: con un'uscita no deal, l'UK dovra' pagare dazi su alcuni prodotti EU, che oggi NON paga, e perdera' TUTTI, dico TUTTI gli accordi commerciali stabiliti da vari paesi nel mondo con la EU, riducendosi a commerciare unicamente tramite regole WTO.
Come la sola Mauritania.
 
Il provvedimento incrementa il traffico di prodotti non EU esenti da dazi dal 60% all'85%, mentre al contempo non puo# evitare di avere dazi su prodotti europei che, oggi, sono esenti.
 
In TOTALE, che e' poi quello che conta, il traffico esente da dazi passa dall'82% al 87%, e solo come misura temporanea, pensata per alleviare il disagio per aziende e consumatori finche' nuovi accordi non verranno raggiunti.
 
Domanda: in questi tre anni, TRE ANNI, da cui il referendum e' stato effettuato, gli efficientissimi sostenitori del Brexit al governo quanti di questi accordi hanno raggiunto? ZERO.
 
Ah si scusi, dimenticavo il fantastico accordo commerciale per avere un servizio di traghetti alternativo stipulato da Grayling con la Seaborne, la societa' che non ha un singolo traghetto che sia uno.
Mi riempe proprio di fiducia.
 
Evidentemente non son il solo, visti andamento del PIL, andamento degli investimenti e numero delle societa' che hanno deciso di andarsene all'estero. Incluso mr Dyson, quello che a parole era un convinto sostenitore del brexit e sosteneva che sarebbe stato un toccasana per l'economia inglese, salvo poi qualche settimana fa spostare la sua attivita' a Singapore ed evitare di rispondere a qualunque commento a riguardo.
 
Si vede che era proprio fiducioso.
 
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saluti
cm

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Minardi, come al solito i crucchi la han fatta grossa e fuori dal vaso.
 
Vai in sinagoga, mettiti lo straccio e prega, ti espellono.

 Evidentemente non son il solo, visti andamento del PIL,
 
Eccoci il grafico, Italia Vs UK:
 
https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:ITA:GBR&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false
 
 
 
Adesso te lo dico una cosa...io sono a favore della Europa, ma per me lo EU con il suo fissazione con il difunzionale unione doganale non é representiva dello EU.
 
Io guardo altro. Non so come andro a finire lo Brexit, ma almeno si prova a cambiare. E se non funzione, proveranno qualcos altro. Invece ci sono persone che vuole che a tutti costi falliscono il Brexit.
 
Hanno paura che alimenta la destra Xenofobio, il nazionalismo, il razzismo.....invece questi cose si stanno alimentando lo EU che ha passato 15 anni in stallo totale. 
 
Lo EU é come un ecomostro che tanta di farsi pui bella mettendo fioriere attorno. A bisogna buttarlo gui e costrurire qualcosa di nuova....magari bassandosi su tutti quelli istituzione europee NON EU che funzione (CERN, Tribunale dei diritti umane, ESA, Eurovision ecc ecc).
 

 Minardi, come al solito i crucchi la han fatta grossa 
 
Eh, ma i maro'?
 
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saluti
cm

 Io guardo altro. Non so come andro a finire lo Brexit, ma almeno si prova a cambiare. E se non funzione, proveranno qualcos altro. Invece ci sono persone che vuole che a tutti costi falliscono il Brexit.
 
Certo, ed alle aziende che se ne vanno ed ai posti di lavoro che verranno persi per questo dici "Oh scusa, abbiamo scherzato, tornate pure" e loro di corsa ad aspettare te.
Ed agli immigrati che nel frattempo hai cacciato a calci in culo e senza nessuna riconoscenza, anche a loro dici "No scusate, ci siam resi conto che servivate, tornate pure, era uno scherzo". E loro tornano tutti allegramente.
 
Vai tranquillo, succedera' di certo cosi'.
 
 
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cm

 Ed agli immigrati che nel frattempo hai cacciato a calci in culo e senza nessuna riconoscenza, anche a loro dici "No scusate, ci siam resi conto che servivate, tornate pure, era uno scherzo". E loro tornano tutti allegramente.
 
Where is your link?
 
 
As far as I know there is not, and never has been, any intention to send anybody home. Far from it, people who have been working in the legally in the UK before brexit (therefore all EU residents) will have a permanent right to residence. 
 
I have never heard any government official or MP suggest otherwise, quite the opposite. If only the same could be said of Italy.....
 
 

More links:
 
This talks about working in the UK post brexit. It notes that people already working will be able to stay. After Brexit unskilled workers will be limited and may receive 2 year limited visas and be subject to other constraints (being resident for example). Skilled workers will probably be unaffected.
 
https://www.roedl.com/insights/united-kingdom-uk-brexit-rights-withdrawal-negotiation
 
 
 
This is a somewhat technical but interesting perspective on the legal aspects of the customs union, WTO rules etc.
 
It notes how smaller countries and unions have more success in negotiating trade 
agreements than larger ones:
 
https://lawyersforbritain.org/brexit-legal-guide/wto-and-international-trade/brexit-and-international-trade
 
 

 If only the same could be said of Italy.....
 
Let's not discuss about shithole countries...

 
 
 
This is a common misunderstanding of the Brexit issues. Whilst the UK does have it's share of loudmouthed naziskins, just like any other country, they DO NOT account for 52% of the population.
 
 
In fact the UK is a very 'cosmopolitan' place and has been for some time. The immigration problem that influenced 39% of Brexit voters is due to 'frontaliere low-cost'. Basically unskilled job posts are being taken by East Europeans who do not live in the UK, they live in dormitories and work round the clock for a few weeks before returning home for a few weeks. They slip under the radar for tax in both the UK and their home countries, but at the same time they lowwer the bar for wages.
 
The upshot is that unless you have a skilled job it is increasingly difficult in many areas to be able to raise a family in even a modest house and with both parents working.
 
It's not difficult to imagine the problems when people whose families have lived in the area for generations are forced to move away because the work is being undercut by frontaliere.
 
At the same time, areas around low cost employers, such as shipping wharehouses, find themselves being turned into frontier towns. Absentee landlords snap up property and rent them out with every room being filled with bunk beds. With so little space at home, lots of these workers relax on the streets and in parks with beer from the supermarket. 
 
The perceived EU issue with this is that when people have suggested laws and rules to bring the situation under control, the answer has always been that EU rules require everybody to be treated the same.....the inference, as with so many other issues, is that things can't be changes because of the EU.
 
How much of that is true I don't know, we know that much damage has been inflicted on the EU by National politicians using them as an excuse; but there is also no doubt that the EU IS very beurocratic (especially by UK standards) and is dogmatically persuing a goal (that of the perfect customs union) that European citizens don't see as a priority.
 
However in part this migrant labour issue is very real. Shortly before the Brexit referendum the EU did make some concessions regarding migrant workers, but it was too little too late. In addition, the concept that the EU had to 'concede' these changes was also seen as an indicator that the UK was no longer able to control it's own environment.
 
By and large immigrants are wanted and are welcome. In a post Brexit UK the borders will not be closed (nor will people be sent home). The difference will be that the entry requirements will be the same regardless of which country you are coming from. 
 
The UK welcomes people who want to settle and contribute to the community, as many Indians and Africans have done, they do not welcome people who see the UK as a giant industrial estate where you run in, earn a quick buck, and shove off again, as is happening with Eastern Europeans.
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
The most ridiculous claims have been coming from Remainers, many of whome seem to have suprisingly little knowledge about the EU and Europe in general. Try asking a Remainer wether they think the UK should join the Euro.
 
The odd thing is that in all this debate nobody seems to be getting down to the core issue; the EU's obsession with the customs union. Just about all complaints about the EU boil down to requirments that stem from this. And yet there are many free trade agreements around the world that do have such Draconian requirements, including those negotiated by the EU itself (for example Canada and Japan).
 
 

 Thi
 
since you ar sliping avay from the questions, cen you tel me if wages are raisin or not and if ies, do you think the two tings are related, maybe?
 
I'll throw it there :P

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There are a lot of complex issues here. For example, in the period leading up to brexit the UK was pulling out of the recession faster than other countries and the pound rallied. This meant that frontaliere effectively gained more in their own currency. After Brexit the pound has returned to more typical levels ( 
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y
 ) or even lowwer than average. This has encouraged trade and market growth, but means frontaliere earn less in their own currency.
 
So yes, the situation did peak just before Brexit, but on the other hand the perceived problem is that the UK is not able manage the rules itself under the EU.
 
This is also why Brexit issues straddle left and right political movements. In Italy people seem to think that the UK's immigration problems are like their own, and therfore think that it is purely a problem of right wing movements. In reality many left wing people are annoyed that migrant workers from EU contries are getting free access to jobs markets that otherwise would be available to extra EU refugees who come harder or impossible situations, such as Syria.
 

To me iu now noting of economics and IU hasn't't even understod the cuestion.

 To me iu now noting of economics and IU hasn't't even understod the cuestion.
 
If you mean your question then no, I didn't understand it.
 

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then red it against. Whats the problem?

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 2:17:17 PM UTC+1, cicap wrote:
 
1) Wages are rising with respect to what?
 
 

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 2:17:17 PM UTC+1, cicap wrote:
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2) Whose wages (skilled labour, unskilled labour)

 1) Wages are rising with respect to what?
 
are they?
 
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/183C5/production/_95596299_uk_wage_growth_v2-2.png
 
 
do it say something you?

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It tells me there was a peak in earnings in 2015. Earnings then fell. So that has nothing to do with Brexit as the referendum was half way through 2016.
 
Your graphs show wages falling in 2017, but they are still well above average levels for the first half of the decade.
 
Unfortunately your graph stops in 2017, you might like to look at a more recent one which shows earnings climbing again in 2018....note that this is growth, so basically Brexit does not seem to have affected earnings at all.
 
And at the moment they are steadily increasing.
 

 The perceived EU issue with this is that when people have suggested laws and rules to bring the situation under control, the answer has always been that EU rules require everybody to be treated the same...
 
Oh yes. There are some ground principles that are non negotiable if you want to be part of the EU and free circulation of EU people is one of them. Otherwise Brexit...

Il giorno giovedì 14 marzo 2019 14:37:04 UTC+1, cicap ha scritto:
 
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/183C5/production/_95596299_uk_wage_growth_v2-2.png
 
 
Interesting

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Ooops, sorry, I forgot the more recent data.......
 
 
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45875599
 
 

 The odd thing is that in all this debate nobody seems to be getting down to the core issue; the EU's obsession with the customs union. 
 
No problem. There's Brexit to avoid that...

 Oh yes. There are some ground principles that are non negotiable if you want to be part of the EU and free circulation of EU people is one of them. Otherwise Brexit...
 
Exactly. But that does not imply they do not want immigrant workers. 
 
Free Circulation is not the same thing, that is included in the Schengen agreement. Switzerland is a member, it does not give automatic work rights. In fact Switzerland has applied rules to frontaliere....
 
 
 
 

 No problem. There's Brexit to avoid that...
 
Maybe. But I would note that throughout Europe people are dissatisfied with the EU.
 
Did you read Zingaretti's election manifest? He did not propose to leave the EU but notes that there need to be large and fundamental changes to the EU.
 
 

 More ridiculous that 350 million Pounds per week only for health care system? I cannot even imagine...
 
What about supermarket shelves being empty and vital medicines being unavailable because goods cannot get through customs to come into the UK?
 

 Free Circulation is not the same thing, that is included in the Schengen agreement. Switzerland is a member, it does not give automatic work rights. In fact Switzerland has applied rules to frontaliere....
 
Such as?
Anyway anybody from any EU countries can work in Switzerland, whether they're moving across borders every day or not...

 He did not propose to leave the EU but notes that there need to be large and fundamental changes to the EU.
 
Such as? :-)

 What about supermarket shelves being empty and vital medicines being unavailable because goods cannot get through customs to come into the UK?
 
Good to know.
A very elevated level of debate...

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It's rubbish, it's  completely devoid of justification. Otherwise known as project fear.
 
An elevated level of debate would try and look at why people do not like the EU, why they do not agree with it's objectives (throughout the EU, not just in the UK), and why EU policy and direction has to all intentions been stalled scince the introduction of the constitution failed 15 years ago (and that was NOT the fault of the UK).
 
The EU cannot keep burying it's head in the sand. Things like Brexit do not happen because of popularist ads on the side of busses.
 
 
 
 
 

 Anyway anybody from any EU countries can work in Switzerland, whether they're moving across borders every day or not...
 
This is what the Swiss government has to say:
 
https://www.ch.ch/en/working-switzerland-eu-efta/
 
 
The UK would me more than happy with such an arrangement. In fact the Swiss model is that most favoured by Brexit voters.
 
However the EU have said that it's not an option. Note that there was no EU debate about this.
 

 I have never heard any government official or MP suggest otherwise, quite the opposite. If only the same could be said of Italy.....
 
Ripeto, read again.
 
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 Because you've just told me so, that's the reason!
 
What I told you is some Brexiters, not a majority, cited control of immigration rules as their principle motivation. 
 
The ONLY political party that is against immigration is UKIP...current opinion polls put them at around 4%.
 
Being able to manage your own rules about immigration is not the same as saying you do not want immigrants. 
 
 
 
 

 There are a lot of complex issues here. For example, in the period leading up to brexit the UK was pulling out of the recession faster than other countries and the pound rallied. This meant that frontaliere effectively gained more in their own currency. After Brexit the pound has returned to more typical levels ( 
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y
 ) or even lowwer than average. 
 
Ma cos'e' uno scherzo? Stai chiamando "typical levels" quelli del 2008 immediatamente dopo la piu' grossa recessione dei tempi moderni?
Ma sei in malafede o prendi per il culo?
 
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cm

 
 
They don't. They only go over to work, their homes are elsewhere. 
 
They would much rather have immigrants who are interested in settling in the community. It's easy to make rules to encourage that, but they would not be EU legal.
 

 The UK would me more than happy with such an arrangement. In fact the Swiss model is that most favoured by Brexit voters.
 
Il modello svizzero, che e' poi l'EFTA, prevede la libera circolazione di persone e merci, basata sui criteri EU tanto che permette l'ingresso al mercato unico.
 
Libera circolazione che e' esattamente quello che sopra hai descritto come il motivo principale del Brexit.
 
L'unica esclusione e' stata richiesta per Bulgaria e Romania. Esclusione che e' possibile chieder anche tra paesi EU, basta volerlo.
 
L'UK ha sempre e costantemente rifiutato nelle trattative la libera circolazione di persone e merci.
 
Ma sai quello di cui stai parlando o parli a casaccio?
 
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cm

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Like everbody, from both the left and the right, he was vague....but essentially he wants to scrap the current Hieracchy and make it governed by the European Parliament (currently this just rubber stamps proposals, it does not decide direction or executives).

 Ripeto, read again.
 
Ma che cose...dai farmi almeno un post che che sostiene questi cose. Non esite. punto.
 
 
Se si vuole una Europa migliore si devi affrontare in fatto che lo EU ha qualche problema. Inutile fingere che va tutto lisce.
 

 
 
Dati completo fino allo 2018:
 
https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fbusiness-45875599&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHXWPE9_nFJzgXP_zeWaDnzJrETwQ
 

 Il modello svizzero, che e' poi l'EFTA, prevede la libera circolazione di persone e merci, basata sui criteri EU tanto che permette l'ingresso al mercato unico.
 
La svizzera non é nello unione doganale. Ci vuole un carnet per il merce. Se passa il confine con merce commereciale  non deve passare per le strade secondarie.
 
https://www.ch.ch/it/dogana-svizzera/
 
 
per lavoro legge questo:
 
https://www.ch.ch/en/working-switzerland-eu-efta/
 
 
 
 

 > Il modello svizzero, che e' poi l'EFTA, prevede la libera circolazione di persone e merci, basata sui criteri EU tanto che permette l'ingresso al mercato unico.
 
Che fra altro non é esatto: eccoci una mappa dei accordi Europee:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg
 
 

 Se si vuole una Europa migliore si devi affrontare in fatto che lo EU ha qualche problema. Inutile fingere che va tutto lisce.
 
NESSUNO, RIPETO NESSUNO, RIPETO ANCORA NESSUNO ha MAI detto che in Europa va tutto liscio.
 
NESSUNO. E ti sfido a trovarmi UN SOLO POST dove dico questo, o UN SOLO articolo a sostegno del Remain che dice questo.
 
La posizione di chi vuol rimanere, che condivido, e' che per far funzionare l'EU devi rimanerci dentro e cambiar le cose, non uscirne ed uscire da OGNI possibilita' di influire sulle sue decisioni.
 
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cm

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Stavam parlando della QUOTAZIONE DELLA STERLINA e te mi posti i dati della retribuzione... Ma cosa c'entrano?
Ma sai di cosa stai parlando?
 
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cm

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Vero, son stato scorretto, permette la libera circolazione di persone, ma ci son controlli diversi per le merci.
 
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cm

 An elevated level of debate would try and look at why people do not like the EU, why they do not agree with it's objectives
 
because people sometimes do stupid things, everywhere they are, not only in Italy.
 
cheers!

 The UK would me more than happy with such an arrangement. 
 
I also would be more than happy to have all my lunches on you, but you know, it takes two for tango or, as we say in Italy, non puoi fare il conto senza l'oste.

 The UK would me more than happy with such an arrangement. In fact the Swiss model is that most favoured by Brexit voters.
 
It seemed a little different just a couple of posts ago...

 Ma sai quello di cui stai parlando o parli a casaccio?
 
Secondo me visto che in un post dice una cosa e in quello successivo il contrario in uno dei 2 casi lo sa...