Newsgroup: it.politica
Titolo: RFD: soc.culture.padania


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 writes:
[...]
CDD>      A: Some elections for the Major in some towns in Italy and,
CDD> guess what, the North League for the independence of PaTania lost
CDD> them.
A more correct statement would be: a number of electoral races for
local administrations was held, and the Northern League for the
independence of Padania won some of them, and lost some other.
Overall, in the region named Padania in the RFD the Northern League
did score well.
CDD>      Q: How can it be that I am not surprised, any example?
CDD>      A: Let me think.  If I am right the proponent of
CDD> soc.culture.paTania comes from Brescia, Lombardy, Padania as his
CDD> .sig says (actually it comes from Gussago, a little village of
CDD> Brescia surroundings).  Please ask the proponent if it is true
CDD> that, for the second time in a row, the Brescia candidate of the
CDD> North League FAILED to reach the ballot for the major with the
The answer is "no", what Mr. De Diana writes is incorrect.  4 years
ago the Northern League candidate, senator Vito Gnutti, did reach 
the ballot, and was defeated by a coalition including both
post-communists and christian democrats (by far the two largest
parties in post WWII Italy) 53% vs. 47%.
CDD> following results: Brescia: Ulivo [left wing] CORSINI PAOLO 41,8
CDD> % Polo [right wing] DALLA BONA GIOVANNI 32,9 % Lega [paTanian
CDD> wing] GALLI CESARE 19,8 %, these election are no more than a
CDD> couple of months old.
This second part is correct.  However Mr. De Diana only gives an
incomplete picture of the recent local administration elections.
To list some other examples, while NL was defeated in Brescia, it won
two main cities in eastern Padania, Treviso and Udine, in both cases
NL won the ballot ~60% vs. 40% against a catho-communist opponent.
Furthermore, in recent elections, NL won electoral races for the
provinces (counties) of Varese, Como, Vicenza and Treviso, among the
most wealthy in north-eastern Padania.  Also in Vicenza and Treviso NL
defeated catho-communist candidates ~60% vs. 40% in the ballots.
Vicenza is the largest gold handling district of Europe, Treviso hosts
for instance Permasteelisa, the world reknown firm which did the
titanium cover of the Guggenheim foundation in Bilbao.
At the moment NL rules or scores high consensus exactly in the
electoral districts that have the record for having more strongly
resisted italian fascism when Mussolini took power in 1924.  Whereas
fascists collected over 75% of the popular vote below the Po river,
they where defeated above the Po river, where 21 out of 25 millions of
nowadays padanians live, 48% vs. 52% (see De Felice "Storia del
Fascismo").  Unfortunately for Italy, the fascists collected 66%
overall in Italy in that occasion. Today, the heirs of the fascists
are the centralistic/ nationalistic italian parties, including
post-fascists, roman catholics and post-communists.  The centralistic
parties score their highest figures where the fascists won in 1924.
I apologize for all the off-topic material, which I include just for
the purpose of correcting incorrect statements and give some more
clues concenning what we call Padania.
Regards,
-- 
Alberto
No people and no part of a people shall be held against its will in a
political association that it does not want. (Ludwig von Mises, 1919)

[remainder of post deleted]
All of what you (and the previous poster) had written here is completely
irrelevant to the RFD.
-- 
Eric Jaron Stieglitz    
eph...@ctr.columbia.edu
Systems Manager         Civil Engineering, Columbia University
http://www.ctr.columbia.edu/people/Eric.html

...


we call Padania.
Apologies my ass. If any other idiot keeps making such
a buffoonery of a RFD (and of news.groups), I'll
conceal my Italian origins out of shame
ciao (or perhaps, bye!)
maurizio
*** Posted from RemarQ - 
http://www.remarq.com
 - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***

 parties score their highest figures where the fascists won in 1924.
I prefer to think that the heirs of the fascists are those people
whose slogans are "Immigrants, fuck off" (immigrati, fuori dalle palle)
or "Papalia (A magistrate investigating Northern League's
misdemanors),terrone, torna in meridione"  (Papalia, Dago, go back to
the south), or maybe "L'Italia ha la miss nera, la Padania ha le
donne bianche" (Italy has a black Miss, Padania's women are white).
Who would those be, eh, Mr Slippery?
[news.groups snipped]
G. Torrieri


--
     I would dare to object, let me make an example:
  Suppose  somebody  propose, on an internet  environment  composed mainly by
 Italian users, a RFD for the soc.culture.land_of_the_wannabe.	This country 
should	be  composed  of pieces of a  formerly	existing  country  in which 
English is spoken.  ok?
  Let's say that this  land_of_the_wannabe  is composed by pieces of the USA,
 just take a scissor and cut out the land you like, ok?  You are Italian and 
therefore  you do not know in  detail  what is going on there,	threfore  a 
first  step to	analyze  such a RFD  would  be, IMHO, to see if this RFD is 
really the  expression of a real culture or it is just supported by a bunch 
of lunatics internet-addicted.
  In lot  of  places  in  the  world  there  are  movements  which  tries  to
 rivendicate the independence of some part of a formerly  existing  country, 
and usually they make historical  claims dating far back in time.  Actually 
in the case of paTania the first claim of its existence was dated, I guess, 
1997 AD i.e.  a couple of years ago, when an Italian political leader named 
Bossi,	Umberto  decided to use his scissor on a map of Italy..  NO LOGICAL 
Rationale  was used in this  cutting - in fact I am trying to show you that 
Bossi's paTania is made by taking pieces of Italy in which his movement has 
got negligible %.
  Let me ask you...  you are in Columbia, currently USA I suppose:  would you
 like  to  be  annexed	to  the  land_of_wanna_be  if  the  party  of  the 
land_of_wanna_be  in  Columbia	reaches  the  2-3  %  ?!?  See 
news:774nq8$ob2$
1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com
 for details.
  So that's the point, you (not  italian  speaker or not  involved in Italian
 current  affairs) are just victims of some people like Lusiani or fogaz(z)i 
who try to sell an hoax to you.  And this is  exactly  what is in the  RFD; 
nobody can  discuss a culture  which does not exist, you see my point?	The 
easiest thing IMHO is to show you (= not Italian on internet  interested in 
discuss this RFD) how the elections goes, a good will third party can check 
easily in internet if the data are correct.
  As in this case, I did actually a mistake on Brescia:  Brescia:  Old
election: Lega goes to the ballot and loose / Actual election: Lega no
ballot.
  I thank Lusiani to have given me the opportunity to point out this trend of
 the Lega,  which  shows how weak is, some years ago they were able to reach 
the ballot but _now_ they reach the ballot much seldom, examples:
     Milano, the biggest town in "paTania" as Lusiani could say:
     Old election: Lega WINS the major / Actual election: Lega no ballot (!!)
  Venezia, the capital(*) of "paTania" as Lusiani could say:  Old election:
Lega goes to the ballot and loose / Actual election: Lega no ballot.
  etc..  etc...  Lusiani is the SCIta who  demonstrated  the best  ability in
 manipulate  data or  quotes,  but I want to cut short	this post and I will 
write another with more details answering his remarks.
  About what  should we talk if not of the fact that the  proponents  of the 
soc.culture.paTanian  bullshitting  innocent  third  parties  by  means  of 
internet?  Please  let me know, this is the sole RFD (the past	included) I 
ever partecipated.
     Claudio
	(*) decleared the capital by decision of U.Bossi, of course.
--
Ocio!  E' in corso su news.groups la discussione per la creazione (RFD)
di soc.culture.padania, questa e' in Inglese ed il voto (CFV) anche. Se
non volete partecipare alla stessa almeno ricordatevi di votare  NO  al
momento giusto. Altre info su lega  
http://www.metro.it/isola/index.htm


  , who states  among others  "These  people (I guess
     Arab  from  the  context)  do not  have the  right  to claim  anything
     (=housing  etc..)  because they are foreign, why should they give them
     anything,  after  they  came  here in  Europe  to  change  its  nature
     (=cultural   background  etc..)  like  the  'meridionali'   (=southern
     Italian) have done with paTania during the last 50 years."
     Do you see any 'political' remarks besides racial hate?  And do notice
     that these Arabs come here in Europe  (and  Italy) to work on the most
     humble  jobs  that  the  local  do not  want to  make  any  more - the
     characteristic  of being  based on racial  hate only was the  peculiar
     trait of nazism.
     Anyway..  how does a fellow  leghista  answer to this  instigation  to
     racial hate?
Ma quali case. Risolviamo il problema del riscaldamento: tutti ai forni
ahahahah.... :)
		verbatim: Luca Benedetti
     What the hell for housing.  Let's solve the heating problems:
    all to the ovens  (=forni) .
    ahahahah.... :)
     Forni is used in  Italian  also  the the  ovens  in the  concentration
     camps, the poster then uses the 'smile'  sign, God only knows what the
     hell Benedetti thinks it is amusing. This is, however, just an example
     of the threads launched by "patanian supporters". Is it enough?
     So, dear Russ Allbery, do you need any other  examples?  Just ask :-).
     Indeed  this is a  political  fight  and,  do  notice,  can  only be a
     political  fight  because a "language" or whatsover  trait of a common
     culture in the case of paTania does _not_ exist.
    Plese let me know (you or other) if you need other evidences.
   N.B:  Crossposted  to Italian  speaking  NG so my  translation  can be
     corrected.
    Claudio De Diana
      P.S.  ah ja,  May I ask if  Have  you  ever  seen a  political  rally
     against immigration or foreigners, so to say, in a "live fashion"?  It
     is an interesting experience and, after that, you keep more care about
     phenomena like neonazism.
     P.P.S.  ohi  tosatteria!  deme na man!  credo  che ci  siano  due post
     interessanti  da far leggere agli amici di news.news, uno quello circa
     la frana di Sarno e sui Napoletani che si sono lavati  "finalmente" ed
     un altro circa i forni crematori...  ce nessuno che li riposta??



 Because  foga(z)zi's  paTania is a hoax while  Padania  can be used in
     Italian.
     I explain  (crossposted to sci and it.politica where this statment can
     be corrected if false):
     In the  Northen  Italy  there is a river (Po) which runs in a flatland
     which is called  "Pianura  Padana",  this  area,i.e.  the basin of the
     river Po, sharing some common characteristics (which is obvious, given
     that there is a river) can be reffered to as  "Padania"  (which is one
     word instead of two).  Albeit this  "concept"  can be  stretched  into
     occasion to touch also the basin of the river Adige (i.e.  NE Italy as
     opposed to NW Italy + Em.Rom only) I have never seen (but maybe in SCI
     or it.politica  somebody can correct me) a geographical book referring
     to  "Padania"  as an entity in which one can find the region  TOSCANA,
     UMBRIA,  MARCHE.  Check the  official  site of the North  League  i.e.
 
http://www.leganord.org/
  (there is even the English  version) and, so
     ithat t is NOT  possible  to make a mistake  :-), there is  europe.gif
     with the Area of paTania shaded in green...
 
http://www.leganord.org/frames/english.htm
     This  area,  i.e.  the  whole  basin of the river po + all the rest of
     North Italy (other rivers' basin included) + Toscana + Umbria + Marche
     is the Bossi's paTania.  I hope the point is clear.
	  Do  notice  that  fogaz(z)i  in  his  orginal  rfd  states  that:
     "Padania is the name of the natural  region that includes the Po river
     basin and  stretches  itself  approximately  between  the Alps and the
     tuscan-emilian  Appennin."  wave to the future?  Was Bossi informed by
     this sudden change of borders?  Does fogaz(z)i tries in the future to
     drop the approximately and annex Toscana, Umbria e Marche to paTania?
     For sure he is just  trying  to sell an hoax to  non-Italian  speakers
     internet users.  Let imagine that this soc.culture.paTanian  pass, the
     RFD will be not  always  on line,  gif like the one of the  _official_
     site of the North League yes...do you see the game?
     Claudio De Diana


     
www.cityline.it/personal/fogazzid/



bye
Gennaro
--
Per rispondere eliminare ".HELL" dall'indirizzo.
To reply remove ".HELL" from the end of the address.
------
-Attenzione-  su news.groups è in corso la RFD per la creazione di
soc.culture.padania;
Non dimenticate di votare NO quando arriverà il momento!!
------

 fogaz(z)i who try to sell an hoax to you.
Newsgroup creation is concerned almost solely with whether there are
enough people talking about a particular topic.  If there are enough
people talking about Padania, there are very few good reasons to not go
ahead and create a newsgroup about it.  The existence of a newsgroup says
nothing about the political situation in question; there are plenty of
third-level soc.culture.* groups that aren't separate countries.


      :-).  Indeed this is a political fight
It may be, but I'm not going to get involved in the politics of it.  I'm
telling you all the same thing I told Fogazzi.  Leave your politics out of
this, because they're irrelevant to the newsgroup creation system.
Last time around, Fogazzi inappropriately politicized this vote, and for
that reason I voted against it.  If, this time around, the opponents do
the same thing, I will vote *for* it.



Ocio!  E' in corso su news.groups la discussione per la creazione (RFD)


 the same thing, I will vote *for* it.
     I  already   discussed  the   introduction  of  the  imaginary   group
     soc.culture.pastoral_flatlands_of_X  devoted to the  discussion of the
     culture of the  flatlands of X.  If I undersant  your point  correctly
     you say that, even if X is a rock  mountains  area and that the people
     there do not have cattle at all, because it is a freezing  temperature
     even for penguins,  this does not matter  because a person has got the
     right to dream and talk about it, am I right?
     You say also that " Leave your politics out of this,  because  they're
     irrelevant to the newsgroup creation system.", and that's fine.
     Well, I have to say  that I am  puzzled  at this  point - if the  only
     criteria is enough  interest for a topic to discuss why it is admitted
     the "no vote"?  I mean the real  criteria  would have been IMHO that a
     group is created if the  threshold of >tot< users in favour is reached
     (tot should be a number  possibly big, I guess that in the it.* domain
     is something less than 100, but I could be wrong).
     Now, I could be wrong but I guess the reason  why, from the  beginning
     of this system of vote for the  creation of a NG, it was  admitted the
     vote against is because if it happens that  somebody  makes an RFD for
     soc.culture.lands_where_beat_the_niggers_is_allowed;   even   if   the
     number of the  registered  KKK members could be big enough to overcome
     the "tot" threshold, there will be luckly enough people voting against
     the creation of such a blatant hate rising  group.  I hope my point is
     clear [I am also  answering to an objection  of another  poster]  (ah,
     just a note, if there are not then we have all big troubles, nobody is
     enough  white for one who sees  "nigger"  [I myself  am white but I am
     'the nigger' for a  Northgermany  naziskin  for example  (because I am
     Italian)].
     This     is     exactly     the     point,     what     is     "under"
     soc.culture.pastoral_flatlands_of_X ?  Just a bunch of harmless cattle
     and farm-living  lovers or something else?  Something like, let's say,
     the quest of the real and pure breed  descendants of the first mytical
     flatpeople  (of the  flatlandia  migrating  tribes) to have the proper
     control  of their only  Lebensraum?  And if this is the case how can I
     discuss about it without rising  political  issues that apparently you
     do not like?
     Anyway, Usenet is just "paper" which IMHO is not "paper" but "light on
     a monitor  screen"  (cheap,  quick and  effective  if there are enough
     people with a PC) - if one discuss  secession on paper (Usenet or even
     voice)  then you say that one  should not worry  because  it is paper,
     Usenet  etc..  i.e.  not real world.  This seems is your  points, am I
     correct?  I could theroretically agree (do notice, theoretically).
     But  then I  would  like  to draw  your  attention  to the  fact  that
     inferiority of different  races/cultures is usually discussed on voice
     and paper _before_ eventually be realized in real world (there are lot
     of well-known examples about it).
     I make a practical example, not so many decades ago, there were lot of
     people  writing  all sort of  pseudo-scientifical  bullshitting  about
     'races'  and  similar  items - at the  very  beginning  they  were not
     anything  more  than some  cheap  bunch of papers  sold (or given as a
     gift) in the  corner of the  streets.  Would  have been a wise idea to
     state "do not worry (e.g.)  about ratial superiority issues because it
     is written only on paper"?  In my opinion not.
     To summarize my points:
     if the  sole  criteria  for the  creation  of a NG is the  "interest",
     please explain me why it is admitted the "no vote" to its creation.
     if in the vote it is  admitted  the "no" then  explain  me how I could
     handle the discussion in such a way that I draw no politics inside.
     I did my  best  for  writing  a  sort  of  "philosopical"  post  about
     motivation  to vote pro or against NG, do notice that I did it in what
     is, for me, a foreign  language so do notice that (1) I did not intend
     to be offensive  but just analyze your points (2) if my points are not
     clear it is because of my english.
     Claudio De Diana
     P.S> of course I wrote using 'you' for the poster I am answering but
     all people are welcome in the discussion.
     P.P.S.> I hope it is clear that I am not discussing the patania in
     particular because the problem which is a stake could be happen in
     a whatosever land, your objections appeared to me "formal" and I
     tried to answer about the "form". ok?


 
http://www.dejanews.com/
       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Dear  Mr deDiana,
  In effect you cannot   demonstrate , in spite of your   deformations , that
the proposed group would  be  a forum of 'nazi-culture'!
In any case ,people  can discuss  strange arguments too.......if  they are
interesting of course !.
You  have  only the  anti-democratic care  to deny  also  the possibility ,
that  the esistence of	a  forum of cultural ideas in contrast	to your
political model can be posed in  discussion .
 This is a  well-known fascist method  to avoid any circulation of ideas
different from the own ones. This goal  is  also clearly reported in your
italian text ( quoted above) ,  to  organize  italian readers  with the same
your intention  .
Regards,
la...@my-dejanews.com


     is something less than 100, but I could be wrong).
This is an unfortunate historical artifact that has not been changed
because Usenet is such an anarchic beast.  A "yes" vote has a different
semantic than a "no" vote, which is completely bizarre to anyone with
experience in democracy.  Without going into the reasons for the
difference, a "yes" vote means that you are interested in the newsgroup.
However, a "no" vote is only supposed to be cast for *technical*
reasons: it has a bad name (incorrect part of the Usenet namespace; for
example, soc.culture.microsoft.c++), it has a bad charter (soc.singles
having a charter for discussion of married couples), because it has a
bad moderator (e.g., someone you personally distrust), and so on.
BTW, please turn off right-justification.  Those extra spaces make your
posts difficult to read.
-- 
                      --- Aahz (@
netcom.com
)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6     <*>     -=> 
http://www.rahul.net/aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
"Perhaps God rewards martyrs, but life seldom does..." --Ulrika O'Brien

third-level soc.culture.* group dedicated to it and I wish them luck.
soc.culture.appalachian would be an excellent example of this; there's
already an alt.appalachian (currently has 800+ articles on my spool) and
an alt.appalachian.literature.  Of course, a.a.l belongs in
humanities.*, but.....


momento giusto. Altre info su lega  
http://www.metro.it/isola/index.htm
 Why is De Diana allowed to say to other people to look on infos about Lega
Nord and to vote NO???? Padania IS NOT Lega Nord.
This is what De Diana says:
On news.groups you can vote for soc.culture.padania. It's english and the
vote also. If you don't want to partecipate remember to vote NO at the right
moment. Other info on lega (Lega Nord)
http://www.metro.it/isola/index.htm
He is only politicizing. Is this right? We don't want a political news
group, because there is already it.politica.lega-nord. We want a news group
to speak about our culture that is VERY different from the rest of italy.
And he is continuing to offend alle the padanian people calling Padania,
paTania.

     zero?
If the lunatics are posting in their own group, they won't bother the
others.  Who cares what's in newsgroups you don't read?  *YOUR* signal
will increase if they go away.
Jay
-- 
* Jay Denebeim  Moderator       rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: 
b5...@deepthot.ml.org
             *
* moderator contact address:    
b5mod-...@deepthot.ml.org
     *
* personal contact address:     
dene...@deepthot.ml.org
          *

     without rising political issues that apparently you do not like?
So...  if these people exist, and you're against them, which would you
prefer:
a) Them discussing their plans in public.
b) Them discussing their plans where you can't watch them.
If you really wanted to stop them, wouldn't you prefer to have them
someplace you could watch them rather than behind closed doors?
If the people exist, and want to talk about it, they will.  It doesn't
matter whether it's on usenet, or a private mailing list, it will be
discussed.


     the "no vote"?
The No vote indicates that the voter believes the newsgroup would have a
bad effect on the way Usenet is organized - for example, because the
newsgroup is named improperly and will be difficult to find (and hence
offtopic discussion will go on in other newsgroups), or because it's
misplaced (and hence invites misunderstanding about what is and isn't
on-topic in its hierarchy). The Yes and No vote gauge two separate things:
Yes gauges whether there's enough interest to sustain a group, while No
gauges whether there are technical objections that creating the group would
cause overall problems for Usenet structure.
People sometimes vote No because they don't like the subject of the
proposed newsgroup and believe no one should be able to discuss it. It is
impossible in practice to prevent this, but it's generally considered an
abuse of the No vote.


Seren...@my-dejanews.com
 writes:
<snip>
|      To summarize my points:
| 
|      if the  sole  criteria  for the  creation  of a NG is the  "interest",
|      please explain me why it is admitted the "no vote" to its creation.
YES votes measure interest.
NO votes are for technical concerns *only*.
Technical concerns include:
  1) bad moderators / moderation policy
  2) bad charters (like allowing binaries in non-binary groups)
  3) bad namespace (e.g. comp.culture.padania)
Bad namespace is only a minor concern usually.  Sometimes there's no
really good fit and you stick with the best you've got (see the
rec.arts.sf.superman proposal for a BIG discussion about namespace).
|      if in the vote it is  admitted  the "no" then  explain  me how I could
|      handle the discussion in such a way that I draw no politics inside.
if you want to vote NO, then look for a valid (see above) reason to
vote NO and argue from that standpoint.  If you don't find such a
reason then don't vote at all (or vote YES, if you're interested in
participating in the group).
Politics are only dragged into a small number of votes.  Many
discussions of RFDs simply concentrate on technical concerns.
-- 
Boris Schaefer -- 
s...@psy.med.uni-muenchen.de
The Gordian Maxim:
	If a string has one end, it has another.

 plus I have read some other answers to other
posters.
I attach the answer to Jay's posters but it must considered an answer to
everybody.  I see the point about group naming: I mean this "decoupling"
between real existance of an item and 'its existance on usenet'.  The phrase
"Not really relevant.  I'll point out there's a newsgroup where people
discuss Elvis sightings."  [by Jay] made me laugh a lot (in a positive sense,
I mean) but made things clearer.
So that's for the naming then it comes a point which is a "culture clash"
(talking about real culture, not invented one), so to say, always Jay points
out that:
--- Jay's statment
So...  if these people exist, and you're against them, which would you
prefer:
a) Them discussing their plans in public.
b) Them discussing their plans where you can't watch them.
If you really wanted to stop them, wouldn't you prefer to have them
someplace you could watch them rather than behind closed doors?
If the people exist, and want to talk about it, they will.  It doesn't
matter whether it's on usenet, or a private mailing list, it will be
discussed.
--- end
Probably it will come to your surprise but, in "real world" countries such as
Germany or Italy (but I guess other European countries too), we have got laws
against (maybe wrong translation) "incitation to racial hate".
I will make an example, if in Italy one states that "black people are
genetically
inferior to the white race and deserve etc.."  well, one is not covered by our
Constitution which indeed DO cover freedom of expression - because in fact you
are 'ipso
facto' (I mean just because you say that there are inferior races) prosecuted;
the law is the Mancino's law. You are free to express yourself up to the
point in which you do not make a statement of racial hate, I hope it is clear
the point up to now.
So if you see a piece of paper in Italy in which there are such statments,
that's illegal, and the printer can be prosecuted (do notice that lately [I
am interested in understanding how a shithead is able to develop certain
ideas], I have bought Hitler's "mein Kampf" in an Italian library - it is a
borderline case [can be considered an 'historical item' and therefore sold as
'history', but to a good extent in the book does NOT appear address of the
editor etc..  [probably because they want to make difficult to be sued])
Internet is a modern mean and, up to know, I have not heard of people being
prosecuted accorder to the Mancino's Law against racial hate (albeit I know
of a Naziskin Italian group which was shutted down and which had also
internet site etc.. but they had also the 'usual' kind of 'physical' charges
against, if you know what I mean) anyway I guess (strongly hope) the
police/judges have some monitors on their activities and, eventually, will
decide to take some action even about " incitation  to racial hate by
internet means ".
To come to the point, anyway, your observation is not completely right.  In
fact we *already* monitor them on the NG it.politica.lega-nord
(soc.culture.patania would be IMO only an advertising, an 'expansion' so to
say)..	but we read only on the newspaper that, for example, in the real
world some 'green shirts' (the organization which they pretend is the service
of order for the party) were seized by police and, for example, one was an
ex-mercenary in Croatia. You see therefore that some kinds of activity are
not discussed in public, you read on real world newspaper only when the
activities are "discovered", so given that we already track them in
it.politica.lega-nord why should they have a double NG?
I understand also that probably the regular poster of this ng
(devoted to RFD and CFV) does not like this kind of
flame wars  and therefore, after having read some observations of
other posters, I will try to write a formal objection to the creation of
soc.culture.paTania following the lines indicated by you and several other
posters (well, it is like charging formally Pinochet in front of the Lords, it
must be found the right way and that's all)
Of course, albeit for you maybe it will keep sound "strange", do expect that
the motivation of the "no" against soc.culture.paTania, coming from most of
the Italian posters, will be truly base on pure political grounds only.
So talking only about 'formalities' I have got this question:
Is the votation fool-proof?
On SCI and it.politica.lega-nord there is, for example, a well known
posters who cloned himself several times - once it was discovered,
from the headers of his post, that he spent a whole day (12 hrs) in
front of a PC.
Can the voting procedure "survive" to such internet-maniac(s) if
one (or more of them) decide to attack[*]?
Regards to all the poster who replied me.
Claudio
[*] cfr. the result of the last CFV about 'messy vote' etc..


 Luca
MA IO CONTINUO A CHIEDERMI PERCHE' NON RIAPRANO I MANICOMI!!!!!!!!!!
QUESTO SI DEV'ESSERE FATTO DI TUTTO IN VENA...
--
Many thanks and regards
Andrea Colpo
======
Re: SECESSIONE CON O SENZA CONSENSO
Author:  Luca Benedetti
Email:  
pad...@tin.it
Date: 1997/10/07
Forums:  it.politica.lega-nord
PER ANDREA COLPO:
Io mi domando ma perchÉ non riapriamo i forni?
P.S. : Oh signore se non torni noi quaggiĖ riapriremo i forni....
Luca Benedetti
=======


Dedicated to Mr De Diana:
Universal Declaration of Human Right, art. 19
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right
includes freedom to hold opinion without interference and to seek,
receive and impart information and ideas through any media and
regardless of frontiers.
U.S. Bill of rigths
I - Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Costituzione Italiana
Art. 21 - Tutti hanno diritto di manifestare liberamente il proprio
pensiero con la parola, lo scritto e ogni altro mezzo di
diffusione......
-Translation- Italian Constitution
Art. 21 - Everyone has the right to freely manifest his opinion, in
speeches, writings and any other diffusion media.....
Do these words means something for you?
Monica Ferrero
Cuni/Cuneo
Piemont

one (or more of them) decide to attack[*]?
If you can show the votetaker that the votes cast are from the same
person then those votes will be disqualified.  It is one major reason
the results (including who voted which way) are public.  This is not
always fullproof but as things stand is the best method we have.
Emma
-- 
\----
|\* |  Emma Pease                       Net Spinster
|_\/   
em...@csli.stanford.edu
           Die Luft der Freiheit weht


Thanks, and goodbye



But... can you put REAL and cultural motivations against soc.culture.padania
or you have only political and silly fantasies in your mind?




     handle the discussion in such a way that I draw no politics inside.
Don't talk about racism when discussing a new big-8 group, for
starters.
-- 
| Joshua B. Kramer (Not a member of the IC)     McQ! ,-._|\  It's   |jkramer@
| "Some men see things that are and say why         /     .\ not    |sccs.
|  I dream things that never were, and say why not. \_,--._/ a      |swarthmore.
|   -Robert Kennedy                         Perth---^     v  rabbit.|edu


Absolutely... NOT!
The native language, i.e., for me is Piedmonteis.
Piedmonteis is a UNESCO's reconaised language... not a dialect like
Neapolitan!
Yours few thinks are very confused, let me light your mind...
There are not few of 20 "Natural Languages" in Padania. And they are totally
foreign about "Italian"!
Salut!

 writes:
| : YES votes measure interest.
| : NO votes are for technical concerns *only*.
| : 
| : Technical concerns include:
| :   1) bad moderators / moderation policy
| :   2) bad charters (like allowing binaries in non-binary groups)
| :   3) bad namespace (e.g. comp.culture.padania)
| 
| Whilst you use the word 'include', i would like to point out that these
| are not the only technical concerns and include the following :-
| 
| 4) Lack of traffic analysis. 
Well, I used `include', because I thought that maybe I'd miss
something.  I don't think I missed lack of traffic analysis.  The vote
exists to measure interest.  I like it when people put a traffic
analysis in the rationale, but if it's missing I don't consider it to
be a valid reason to vote NO, because the vote won't pass, if there
isn't enough interest and if there is enough interest I don't want to
stop anyone from getting their group.
-- 
Boris Schaefer -- 
s...@psy.med.uni-muenchen.de
There's no saint like a reformed sinner.

 Neapolitan!
Theo is right! For me it's the same. My mother and my grand-mother always spoke
just piedomnteis with me, not italian. Italian is not my native language! It's
an imposition!
FEDERICO


 This political motivation is well reported in the italian text quoted above
"Do not forget to vote NO at the  suitable moment"
  clearly  addressed to  other italian nationalists of it.politica and soc.
culture. italian.
regards,
larth


> resisted italian fascism when Mussolini took power in 1924.
G.Torr> The reverse is true if one looks at the facts more carefully.
G.Torr> North of the Po river, in 1924, the fascist party scored less
G.Torr> than half in big industrial cities (Turin, Milan , ecc.)
G.Torr> while winning in most district in the countryside.  Today,
G.Torr> most big northern cities have non-league dominated councils,
G.Torr> while the league is stronger in small countryside cities and
G.Torr> provinces.
I quoted where I took my data (De Felice "Storia del Fascismo").
Could you now please tell us where you found (book, article) your data
and perhaps give some more quantitative example of what you wrote?  I
am personally interested in learning more quantitative data on the
1924 italian political elections, especially since most italian
historians (for the most part being filo-communist) conceal them as
they show the the most communist regions were also the most fascist
ones.
I summarize my _quantitative_ data in some more detail.  Electoral
score for the fascist "big list" in 1924 elections in Italy:
- Nord above the Po river:	48.8%
- Emilia Romagna		71.7%
- Center			76.0%
- Sud				81.5%
- Ilands			69.9%
[...]
G.Torr> Yeah, Mr Slippery here omits one wee little detail.  The
G.Torr> elections he's talking about were a complete farce.
The elections were hold in a frightening climate in the whole of
Italy, and were also influenced by the central government as it's
tradition in the italian centralistic political system.  As 
post-WWII italian republic president Luigi Einaudi wrote in 1944,
<<Neither in Italy, nor in France, nor in Spain, nor in Prussia, one
ever had and one never will have democracy untill a centralistic
government will exist, whose symbol in the "prefetto">>
Today Germany is a federal republic, Mitterrand has considerably
de-centralized France, Spain has constitutional autonomous communities
and may even evolve in a federal state.  Only Italy remained the
anti-democratic centralistic state with the "prefetti" as described by
Luigi Einaudi.
Having made this digression, I underline that the 1924 elections were
surely not fair, but this was the case in Italy both before and after,
and continues in our days through the use of the Rome-located,
government managed three national TV chains.  Fascist widespread
violence just magnified a constant phenomenon which is connaturated
with teh italian centralistic State.
[...]
G.Torr> 20 years later, in the period of the resistance, one sees that
G.Torr> regions where today the league is in a minority (Emilia,
G.Torr> Piedmont) where the biggest centers of the anti-fascist
G.Torr> resistance, while in Veneto, league's stronghold, the
G.Torr> resistance was a lot more contained.
Could you please quote who summarizes in this way the Resistance to
fascism in Italy?  Is it just your interpretation?  Are you speaking
of real Resistance, like the Ossola Republic (where the NL scores
well) or just indiscriminate murdering by communists _after_ the
fascists were defeated, like in the well-known Emilia- Romagna "death
triangle"?
[...]
G.Torr> I prefer to think that the heirs of the fascists are those
G.Torr> people whose slogans are "Immigrants, fuck off" (immigrati,
G.Torr> fuori dalle palle) or "Papalia (A magistrate investigating
G.Torr> Northern League's misdemanors),terrone, torna in meridione"
G.Torr> (Papalia, Dago, go back to the south), or maybe "L'Italia ha
G.Torr> la miss nera, la Padania ha le donne bianche" (Italy has a
G.Torr> black Miss, Padania's women are white).
G.Torr> Who would those be, eh, Mr Slippery?
Italian politic slogans are frequently crude, due to widespread
illiteracy and poor school rates.  One third of italian electors do
not even have the elementary school license. Some post-fascists
supporters still voice "Duce! Duce!", and perform the fascist salute
every year when they convene to commemorate Mussolini's grave.
Communist supporters too were used to devastate inner cities and ask
death for judges, prosecutors and policemen (and some of them were
indeed shot dead), even on newspapers.  Even now the communist fringes
denominated "autonomi" or "squatters" have a record as inner city
hooligans, and as physical aggressors of political opponents.
Nevertheless italian communists steadily defend them.
Several NL slogans are despicable, but to make a honest judgement one
must compare them with the typical italian political slogans, and one
must take into account that if one peacefully pursues the independence
of Padania, there are prosecutors like Papalia that resurrect fascist
laws from the "codice Rocco" to ask life sentences in courts.
And, most important, contrary to the fascist and communist record, NL
verbal violence has never given place to physical violence, murdering,
terrorism, aggression of political opponents.
Regards,
-- 
Alberto
No people and no part of a people shall be held against its will in a
political association that it does not want. (Ludwig von Mises, 1919)

soc.culture.padania?
Possibly talk.poitics.padania. It is not appropriate to reccomend the
change from big-8 to alt.* without first taking the vote.


 ha scritto:
|>    Theo is right! For me it's the same. My mother and my grand-mother always spoke
|>    just piedomnteis with me, not italian. Italian is not my native language! It's
|>    an imposition!
|>    
|>    FEDERICO
Another "Northern League" party supporter..  8-)
enzo...@iol.it


ha scritto:
|>    Dedicated to Mr De Diana:
|>    Universal Declaration of Human Right, art. 19
|>    Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression;
   [.....]
*** The "Northern League" voters have the freedom to speak of
"Padania Republic" in the italian NG it.politica.lega-nord 
|>    -Translation- Italian Constitution
|>    Art. 21 - Everyone has the right to freely manifest his opinion, in
|>    speeches, writings and any other diffusion media.....
   [...]
*** The "Northern League" voters have the freedom to speak of
"Padania Republic" in the italian NG it.politica.lega-nord.
enzo...@iol.it
www.olografix.org/isola

 ha scritto:
|>    Dear Mr. De Diana... (my english is very bad 8—) ), why you looking for
|>    politic argumentations when we try to talk about culture?
|>    This is a discussion for a CULTURAL newsgroup... not politic!
|>    If you want have a politic discussion go to it.politica.lega-nord.
|>    Other argumentations OT with soc.CULTURE.padania ARE ININFLUENT!
*** Sorry, I don't agree: 
This *is* a politic discussion!  Why? 
Because the only people talking about a "shared padanian culture"
are the Northern League voters, and voter of this party is the
proponent Mr. Fogazzi, and voters of this political party are you
and all the votetakers discussing here.
Finally, because the no-Northern-League people living in your same
geographical area and writing in it.politica.lega-nord denies the
existence of a common culture of "padania", that is only a story
of your party.
enzo...@iol.it
www.olografix.org/isola

*** The "Northern League" voters have the freedom to speak of
"Padania Republic" in the italian NG it.politica.lega-nord
I'm very sorry both for you and  the Northern League, but I'm not a voter of
that political party.
Anyway, I'm more interested about discussing cultural topics than political
ones.
Monica Ferrero
Cuni/Cuneo
Piemont

- Ilands 69.9%
they were ILLEGAL ELECTION because not all citizens had
right to vote. the author "De felice" change always the history .
Ugo
Naples, Italy - EU
ug...@hotmail.com

 Trieste.
There is no indication whatsoever that "in Veneto, league's
stronghold, the resistance was a lot more contained" as G.Torrieri
wrote.  On the contrary Veneto suffered more dead partizans than
Piedmont, Tuscany, Emilia-Romagna (about the same number of
inhabitants) and Lombardy (twice the number of inhabitants as Veneto).
Furthermore it is worthwhile noting that the first clashes against the
Nazis happened right in the Cuneo province, Northern Leagues'
stronghold in Piedmont.
All evidence I can see goes exactly in the opposite direction as the
one Mr. Torrieri would like to support: anti-fascist "resistenza" is
positively correlated to nowadays NL electoral consensus.  In fact NL
vote is correlated with both anti-fascist and anti-communist
traditions.


| Joshua B. Kramer (Not a member of the IC)     McQ! ,-._|\  It's
bye
Gennaro
--
Per rispondere eliminare ".HELL" dall'indirizzo.
To reply remove ".HELL" from the end of the address.
------
-Attenzione-  su news.groups è in corso la RFD per la creazione di
soc.culture.padania;


 ha scritto:
| 
| |>    Dear Mr. De Diana... (my english is very bad 8=97) ), why you =
| looking for
| |>    politic argumentations when we try to talk about culture?
| |>    This is a discussion for a CULTURAL newsgroup... not politic!
| |>    If you want have a politic discussion go to it.politica.lega-nord.
| |>    Other argumentations OT with soc.CULTURE.padania ARE ININFLUENT!
| 
| *** Sorry, I don't agree:=20
| This *is* a politic discussion!
But it shouldn't be.
| Why?=20
Because the supporters and the opposition are making it one.
My strategy is to either ABSTAIN on this or vote for the side that has
made the least political arguments.  As currently both sides are
arguing politically, I will ABSTAIN.
-- 
Boris Schaefer -- 
s...@psy.med.uni-muenchen.de
Ignorance is when you don't know anything and somebody finds it out.

 Alberto
Ciao,
  Roberto


 terrorism, aggression of political opponents.
Really? Mr Fogazzi seems to imply otherwise:
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=325677908&search=thread&threaded=1&CONTEX
T=916402065.1127874650&hitnum=0
G. Torrieri



Wow!  Zironi  don't tell me that you edited the  follow-up  of my original 
post (news.groups,  it.politica,  soc.culture.italian  ) into  (news.groups) 
only in order to make your reply not visible for me..  were you  thinking I
was  reading this thread only on soc.culture.italian?  too bad Zironi.. too
bad
Anyway..  in my post I say that a user	(benedetti)  is a  neo-nazist  AND as
an evidence  (it is pretty tough for a charge) I give the dejanewscoordinates
 of a post of him in which makes some statements about "re-opening of
ovens"...  i.e.:
http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=280372483&CONTEXT=916136606.588644412&hitnum=1
Now what we see is that in your reply you do not spend a word about 
benedetti's statments  but, in turn, you accuse me of "Shrug,  maybe they'd
check your posts too, those ones pro  communism, and those callin idiots the 
Americans,  dont ya think?"  (verbatim Zironi) Too bad you do not give a
dejanews  coordinate system of a post of mine to legitimate your claims, uhu?
Ah, as a personal note I will tell you that I find just  fantastic you
(Italian) using American slang in such a context for a..  captatio 
benevolentiae  towards an  American  readers (I am sorry I have to switch to
Latin to  explain  shortly what you are doing :-))
BTW given that you spend a lot of words about the fact that me and Torrieri
make threads full of political	craps about the  creation of 
soc.culture.pa
(d/t)ania etc...	I was  wondering..  why you launch on the
_sole_	news.groups  (the less politicized  group I can imagine) such an ad
personam  argument against me?	and without giving evidences...  (=dejanews
coordinates) I am puzzled...
have a nice day!  Your post really made me laugh..
ah, I have resetted the header so we can enjoy also on SCI and
it.politica your last performance..
Claudio
Ocio!  E' in corso su news.groups la discussione per la creazione (RFD)
di soc.culture.padania, questa e' in Inglese ed il voto (CFV) anche. Se
non volete partecipare alla stessa almeno ricordatevi di votare  NO  al
momento giusto. Altre info su lega  
http://www.metro.it/isola/index.htm
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------


 positively correlated to nowadays NL electoral consensus.
:  Lusiani, up to this point I agree with you. Torrieri has made a big mistake
: in saying what he said about Veneto and Resistenza, but...
I was under the impression that the major resistance centers were
Emilia ,Toscana and Piedmont, not Veneto.
I don't exclude that I am wrong on this point.
My main point, however is that what Lusiani's analisys of the
1924 vote region-by-region is flawed and the conclusions he draws from
it are meaningless, since that election was
a fraud in the first place.
In the same way, IF IT WERE TRUE that resistance in Veneto was more
contained than in ,say Emilia-Romagna, it would NOT necessarily follow
that Veneto is more fascist than E.R.
G. Torrieri



Indeed I see, are you  interested in the fact that a charter for a RFD should
be written in English without making blatant mistakes such the one described
below? You  describe a patania	whose S-SW  border is NOT  delimited  because
 do exist (refer to your  charter)[in  English] Alps and Apennines  (Alpi ed
Appennini [in Italian]), so do notice that you, the original poster [Fogazzi
Daniele] INVENTED the word  "Appennin"	used in the  charter  which  [after 
Britannica  map  "the Apennines Mountain range"] correctly should sound 
TUSCAN-EMILIAN	APENNINES.  I guess that never has been seen a charter	of a
NG which  could NOT be found by a search  engine  in which  the  correct 
name is  typed!  It is not a  matter  of "politics"..  but of "order in NG
creation"!
So what can I say else than "Answer me please  because you have the bad habit
to *avoid* the questions)"?
anxiously waiting for a brilliant answer of yours I dare to sign myself
Claudio De Diana
Ocio!  E' in corso su news.groups la discussione per la creazione (RFD)
di soc.culture.padania, questa e' in Inglese ed il voto (CFV) anche. Se
non volete partecipare alla stessa almeno ricordatevi di votare  NO  al
momento giusto. Altre info su lega  
http://www.metro.it/isola/index.htm
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------


> and anti-communist traditions.
G.Torr> Since, for better or for worse, anti-fascist resistenza WAS in
G.Torr> good part communist, this is a very difficoult feat indeed to
G.Torr> achieve :-/
That is the claim of most communist oriented italian historians.
Actually the largest contribution to military resistance came from the
"blue" "monarchici" partisans, a fact unrecognized by italian
politically biased historians.


> anti-communist traditions.
R.Kers>    ... but I don't agree with this statement. Most of the
R.Kers> partisans killed, in Veneto and elsewhere, belonged to parties
R.Kers> on the left side of the political spectrum, more often than
R.Kers> not communists (political parties as such had been outlawed
R.Kers> during Fascist years in Italy, most of them were either
R.Kers> members undercover or sympathizers, as you certainly know).
I am not an expert on this: could you please quote some politically
unbiased reference on the above?  As you know communists tried to make
people believe they were about the only ones resisting fascists.  IMO
they were only the most organized group, especially AFTER WWII.  And
from a military view-point I heard that monachic partisans were the
most effective.
R.Kers>   Also, let's NOT forget the consistent number of Veneti who
R.Kers> deliberately tried to push Italy towards an authoritarian
R.Kers> state, asking for a tougher police, during the years of the so
R.Kers> called Strategia della Tensione. Padua, in particular, has
R.Kers> been the centerpiece of such strategy.
IMO Padua connections with fascist and communist terrorism in Italy
are insufficient to characterize Veneto's inhabitants, and also
insufficient to characterize Padua's itself inhabitants.
However it is interesting to note the following facts concenring
today's political vote in Padua:
1) post fascists are the largest single party
2) Northern League's score is about the lowest in Veneto
Even if what you say about Padua was true, it would disqualify mostly
the post-fascists and the Olive-tree coalition that today runs the
city, and would not touch the Northern League.


 Alberto



  Von Mises, quello degli stress? :-)
Saluti,
  Roberto


> also insufficient to characterize Padua's itself inhabitants.
rkers>   ???
I mean that Veneto's and Padua's connections with neo-fascist and
communist terrorism in post WWII Italy do not characterize either the
region or the city as more prone to terrorism and/or totalitarian
regimes w.r.t. other italian cities and regions.
[...]


 writes:
[... nonsense snipped]
Buff> 	The Veneto do-it-yourself by Lusiani, it has already lost
Buff> Venezia (because 'state-assisted' [major: Ulivo]), Vicenza
Buff> [major: Ulivo] because it is not like the province, now
Please wake up... Vicenza's mayor belongs to the center-right
coalition (Hullweck).
[... additional nonsense snipped]


         Where is Lusiani's Veneto? God only knows...
Cossa? No sta tocarme Treviso che divento cativo!!
A Gentilini ghe piaxara' anca quea trojada the "italian flag",
pero' veneto el xe, e veneto el resta. El ga ancora a tessera da
balilla, el ga, el xe un romantico.
E po', che casso c'entra? Treviso e' venetista spiritata e, sopratutto,
anticomunista. Vatti a rivedere le interviste quando e' stato rieletto.
El dixeva Il Sceriffo: quei dea sinistra i dixeva che i megavaria
assa in braghe de tea! Ma mi con un pugno de MOSCHE i go assa'! 
Ansi, a MOSCA i go mandai!!! Har! Har! Har!
Un mito. Un uomo, una leggenda. Ha fatto ripulire le mura cittadine,
ha fatto asfaltare la strada che da casa mia porta in centro (erano
solo 20 anni che era disastrata...) ha fatto sloggiare quella manica
di spacciatori, drogati, protettori che bazzicavano dalle parti della
stazione, rendendo la zona vivibile. Sopratutto, permette al mio pub 
notturno preferito di stare aperto sino alle 5-6 di mattina e ha mandato
a cagare quei quattro vicini che si lamentavano perche' "il Tocai" il 
locale piu' frequentato (chiusura alle due) nei week-end diventa troppo 
"rumoroso". El ga dito: ma fjoi miei, si tuti qua che ve lamente'
parche' i fjoi se copa par strada. I vien qua, i sta in centro,
almanco no i ga da guidar e voe' mandarli via? Ma i gavara' anca 
eori el dirito de divertirse! Ma che volete di piu' da un sindaco? 
Ghe ne fosse altri come Gentilini, altro che bae.
Ciao,
	Michele
PS Ah si, e dimenticavo! In campagna elettorale ha regalato le mitiche
   carte da scopa (ovviamente trevisane, ovviamente Dal Negro) con il
suo
   bel faccione da venetaccio con i guanciotti rossi (da vin ;-) e
vabbe',
   il simbolo della Lega.

One bedroom apt. is available to sublet now.
1. $451 per month rent and electricity
2. free deposit
3. the first month rent is half free
4. Loacte in Wilson road.
5. Please call 3519721 Chris , for detail.


Che c'entra questa schifezza con la cultura italiana?  Non c'è nessuno
che butti via scemenze come questa?
Wolfgang



	No savaria cosa dirte, aparte che so contento
	che i trevisani i xe ga espresso democraticamente
	toendose come sindaco uno che, cussi come che me par
	de capir, el rapresenta ben queo che i trevisani vole
	e, sora de ogni altra cosa, queo che i trevisani _xe_
	ti ti se contento de Genti'ini? Bon par ti...
	 e mi saro' contento de Cacciari
	Gentilini comunque mi incuriosisce in quanto, essendo
	che e' al secondo mandato, dovra' forzatamente fare
	qualcosa di diverso passato il suo mandato -
	fara' un movimento a se (invero e' abbastanza atipico)
	passera' alla Liga Veneta? restera' con Bossi?
	A prescindere dagli aspetti piu' folcloristici
	(which anyway show that he cannot be defined as
	a "striclty-Bossian") io sono davvero interessato
	alla evoluzione politica del Trevisano.
	Claudio


 Alberto
  Let me check on the site of the  Minister for the Internal  affairs,	first
 turn SALA GIORGIO  (Ulivo) 33,1 %, while  HULLWECK  ENRICO  (Polo) 35,7 % - 
unfortunately I am not able to find the second turn (mah?)  but, given this 
vantage of a 2% I guess it is possible	that  Hullweck	eventually  won the 
ballot - It is	interesting  to point out that, as always,  Lusiani lost an 
occasion to keep silent.  The data on the site shows how Lusiani's  beloved 
party 'the north league for the  independence  of the mughty  patania' (for 
the occasion  splitted also in some strange  "patanian	catholic  list" and 
"patanian workers") took only a 14,0 % threfore it was OUT of the ballot in 
Vicenza.  For the records I want to point out that the formation  born from 
the  recent  split  in	Bossi's  north	league	managed  to get a 6,9 %, an 
interesting results, we will see what happen.
     Now Lusiani let's see if you are able to count till seven, ok?
  Seven are the counties of Veneto - ok?  Their capitals are pretty important
 towns.  If I commit a mistake in  attributing a major to the Ulivo  instead 
of the Polo  coalition, for 'the north league for the  independence  of the 
mighty	patania' the  desolating  situation does _not_ change  because they 
took only 1 of the 7 majors  (for the  records it should be 4 Ulivo, 2 Polo 
and 1 Lega)
  These facts should be kept in mind while Lusiani starts  babbling about one
 area of Veneto which does not	represents  the "real Veneto" for the reason 
that there the north league has bad  results...  according to this criteria 
6 Towns out of the 7  Counties	capital of Veneto  are "out" of  "Lusiani's 
real Veneto"
	Claudio
  P.S.	Ah Lusiani,  mighty master of the selective  quoting supreme chief of
 the ords of the  Bronze-faced	man and  recipient  of the SCI medal for the 
best 'Ardita  Ipotesi' of all the times, I noticed you snipped my questions 
about  partisans  in North  Italy and this for the  sound  reason  that, as 
always, you just write hoaxes.	P.P.S. I just repeat your hoax for further
reference, still waiting to  know from "who" or  "how" you "heard", have you
got "voices"  into your bronze head, Lusiani? Maybe is it just a radio
interference..
ditto Lastra di Pietra Lusiani in data 18 Jan 1999 10:04:08 -0800
[..]
As you know communists tried to make
people believe they were about the only ones resisting fascists.  IMO
they were only the most organized group, especially AFTER WWII.  And
from a military view-point I heard that monachic partisans were the
most effective.
[..]
	of course Lusiani will just avoid to answer..
		... that's pure patanian style, I suppose....


 writes:
[...]
Buff>   These facts should be kept in mind while Lusiani starts
Buff> babbling about one area of Veneto which does not represents the
Buff> "real Veneto" for the reason that there the north league has bad
Buff> results...  according to this criteria 6 Towns out of the 7
Buff> Counties capital of Veneto are "out" of "Lusiani's real Veneto"
[...]
As usual you misquote what I wrote.  I never defined "real Veneto"
according to NL votes.  I pointed out that, according to most if not
all economic analyses (e.g. Sole 24 Ore) there are two provinces in
Veneto, which are considered as not sharing Italy's north-east
economic progress in the last two decades.  These are the provinces of
Venice and Rovigo, exactly where the catho-communist coalition scores
its highest figures, and NL its lowest.
It is well known that NL consensus is lower in bigger cities, as it is
to be expected by several reasons (for instance people there are less
rooted to their soil, as Namier writes in his essay on nationalism and
freedom).  Nevertheless I would never write that big cities are not
part of Veneto.
[...addidional nonsense deleted... and no, I'm not going to answer
your question, you have got to become civilized first.]
Regards.


 	Claudio
Ma corri, pezzo d'asino.
Rick

         Claudio
Ciao,
	Michele