Newsgroup: it.politica
Titolo: TV Britannica (WAS: Il paese della birra....

di guardare avanti, al futuro.
Si', ma senza buttare nel cesso gli insegnamenti della storia. E
riparando i torti che sono ancora aperti, vedi per esempio le banche
svizzere.
Stefano Soro,
Bruxelles
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 Congress, se non sbaglio. Poi ne riparliamo.
E questo che significa? Parliamoci chiaro... attualmente gli ebrei non
solo non sono perseguitati, ma vengono trattati anche molto bene.
Stanno in territori che fino a prova contraria non sono loro, e vengono
coccolati come nessun altro dagli Stati Uniti, che permettono loro cose
che a nessun altro paese al mondo permetterebbero (anche perche' gli fa
comodo avere Israele come alleato in quella zona dove sono tutti matti).
Ma cerchiamo di non esagerare, pero'! Io (o un Tedesco) certo non devo
*NULLA* agli ebrei. Il fatto che la mia nazione nella 2a GM si sia
comportata male non significa che io, come persona, devo scusarmi, neanche
per idea. E tutte le esagerazioni che stanno facendo in questo periodo
portano solo ad una maggiore diffidenza verso di loro, che una volta
erano perseguitati e che adesso sembrano essere favoriti. E le comunita
ebraiche hanno poco da lamentarsi che, in tutto il mondo (perfino in USA),
c'e' sempre piu' gente che li guarda con diffidenza...
L'Olocausto c'e' stato, sono state cose terribili (anche se non piu'
terribili di tante altre che vengono commesse ANCHE OGGI e di cui
nessuno parla), tutti concordiamo. Ma sono passati 50 anni. E' tempo
di guardare avanti, al futuro.
Rick

 svizzere.
Com'e' sta storia che i conti vengono pagati solo da una parte? Mai
sentito di Ebrei che vogliono riparare i conti con l'Unione Sovietica,
oggi Russia...
Cos'e', il fatto che il nazismo perse, mentre il comunismo vinse la
2GM, significa che gli Ebrei uccisi dai Tedeschi possono chiedere
risarcimenti, mentre quelli morti per mano Sovietica devono stare
zitti?
Casualmente, tutte le volte che ho dato un'occhiata a dati come quelli
proposti da te, vengono fuori sempre persone di estrema destra, mai
gente di estrema sinistra...
Rick

George Torrieri wrote:
Torrieri, se voglio rispondere a Soro gli rispondo, non sforzarti a
copiare quello che scrive, torna a lavorare va.
Ad una cosa pero' bisogna rispondere...
 GT> Questa poi e ancora migliore:
 GT> Che brutto, il medio oriente, li sono "tutti matti".
 GT> A differenza della sanissima Italia, dove quattro paragoni di sanita
 GT> mentale
 GT> prendono d'assalto il campanile di venezia per liberare "la repubblica 
 GT> della serenissima".
 GT> A differenza di quell'altro paradiso logico degli USA dove qualche
Ahahahahahah, mi paragoni i 4 Serenissimi e gli US al Medio Oriente,
che fesso. Ma lo sei (fesso) o ci fai?
 GT> Ma ci fai o ci sei?
Allora lo sei.
Rick

 verso Hollywood, Hollywood e' un DATO DI FATTO che sia IN MANO agli Ebrei,
La storia del partito repubblicano che protesta contro gli ebrei me la 
devi spiegare meglio.
Forse intendevi dire che il partito repubblicano protesto' contro il 
fatto che molti ad Hollywood sono pro-democratici.
A parte il fatto che uno con i propri soldi ci finanzia chi vuole, in 
questa lista andrebbe pure incluso uno come Redford, che finanzia i 
democratici ma ebreo non e'.
C'e' un libro "How the jews invented Hollywood".
E' innegabile che Hollywood sia una creazione della comunita' ebraica 
americana, nel 30 su 12 case di produzione ben 11 erano in mano ad 
ebrei.
Ma c'e' da dire innanzitutto che chi costruisce una cosa ne e' 
naturalmente proprietario, quindi solo per questo gli ebrei meritano 
di "possedere" Hollywood, se poi analizziamo la parte che Hollywood ha 
avuto nel propagandare the american style of life nel mondo, se si 
considera che Hollywood vale forse piu' di 25 portaerei, allora penso 
che gli americani sono magari anche in debito con gli ebrei per tutto 
cio' che essi hanno fatto per l'America.

 Rick
-- 
To reply by email remove "xxxx" from the start of my email address
---------------------------------------------------------
G. Torrieri, Particle physics group, Univ. of Birmingham
Work: 0121-414-46-30   Home:0121-455-04-06
Homepage:   
http://www.ep.ph.bham.ac.uk/user/torrieri
---------------------------------------------------------
If they give you ruled paper, write the other way
Juan Ramon Jiminez

 anti-israeliani) e Israeliani che non sono ebrei.
Zironi nemmeno sa che Israele e' uno stato laico, che riconosce 
l'ebraismo come religione di stato (quindi la festivita' settimanale 
e' il sabato), come succedeva qui prima del concordato craxiano, e che 
chiunque ci va a vivere potrebbe prenderne la cittadinanza, con la 
sola differenza che con la "legge del ritorno" tutti gli ebrei del 
mondo possono prendere la cittadinanza in pochissimo tempo.
Ma gli arabi che non se ne andarono nel 48 sono anch'essi cittadini 
israeliani, ed hanno pure i loro deputati al parlamento.

 israeliani, ed hanno pure i loro deputati al parlamento.
A parte l'eufemismo de "gli arabi che se ne andarono nel 1948" hai
ragione.


> che fesso. Ma lo sei (fesso) o ci fai?
 GT> No, il paragone non regge:
 GT> In medio oriente c'e gente privata dei piu elementari diritti ,politici, 
 GT> economici o umani. Un certo livello di "pazzia" nella frustrante lotta a
 GT> cambiare questo stato di cose e purtroppo logico e prevedibile.
 GT> Tuttavia pazzia da noi o negli USA e un po' meno facile da giustificare,
 GT> non credi?
Ah, perche' secondo te quello che succede la' e' anche lontanamente
paragonabile a quello che succede da noi o in US? Ah, complimenti...
Rick

 simili).
Che fai parte del KKK, CHI ti ha tradito? E per quale causa poi?

 ragione.
Se ne andarono di loro sponte George, se avessero adottato la tattica 
ghandiana cosa faceva l'esercito israelino? Li ammazzava tutti?

> simili).
 GT> E chi ha tradito?
Ha tradito la sua nazione, quella che le ha permesso di diventare
ultramiliardaria, anche se comunista, e di comprare la villa in California.
Rick

 Rick


 tu lo legga.
Esprimiti meglio.

 ultramiliardaria, anche se comunista, e di comprare la villa in California.
Se la sua nazione l'ha premiata in questo modo, vuol dire che non l'ha 
tradita.

 Marco


 Quali sono sti' olocausti commessi oggi?
Non so cosa Rick intenda per "olocausti" (probabilmente non lo sa nemmeno
lui). Pero' puoi prendere in considerazione il modo in cui gli arabi sono
trattati oggi in Israele e nei territori occupati.
   E se e'vero (come ipotizzi tu) che tra qualche anno Israele cessera'di
essere una democrazia, questo puo'essere solo l'inizio. 
[...]
Marco

> tu lo legga.
 CB> Esprimiti meglio.
Esprimiti meglio una sega. Io fin dall'inizio ho detto come stavano le
cose, tu hai risposto dicendo che intendevo dire un'altra cosa, a
quel punto io ti ho risposto che quella era un'altra storia ancora,
compreso? Ti avevo detto che era un'altra storia, altro che esprimermi
meglio.
Rick

> testa.
 CB> I due film non si possono confrontare.
 CB> Forse facevi meglio a dire: ID4 e' veramente una cagata in confronto a 
 CB> Jurassic Park, film con il quale puo' essere confrontato.
Chi cacchio li vuole confrontare? Si fa solo notare che il parere dei
critici non conta *NULLA*. L'unica cosa che conta e' se la gente apprezza
il film e va a vederlo.
Rick

 in Israele.
Solo una domanda.
Dei curdi non gliene frega niente a nessuno, perche' i palestinesi 
sono tanto preziosi?

> il film e va a vederlo.
 CB> Indubbiamente, ma ci sono anche casi limite come SPQR, campione 
 CB> d'incassi ma grandissima cagata, ed ultimamente anche i film di 
 CB> Pieraccioni, che, francamente parlando, non passeranno alla storia del 
 CB> cinema italiano.
SPQR era un film che ha fatto divertire milioni di persone che sono
andate a vederlo, sempre meglio delle pellicole noiose dei vari Nanni
Moretti che sono viste da 4 gatti e esaltate dai critici Italiani.
Rick

 il film e va a vederlo.
Indubbiamente, ma ci sono anche casi limite come SPQR, campione 
d'incassi ma grandissima cagata, ed ultimamente anche i film di 
Pieraccioni, che, francamente parlando, non passeranno alla storia del 
cinema italiano.

 Moretti che sono viste da 4 gatti e esaltate dai critici Italiani.
D'accordo su Moretti, e' un moralista qualunque, ma quando vidi SPQR 
non mi pare che la gente li' in sala si divertisse. Quelli della 
produzione avevano solo azzeccato la campagna pubblicitaria.
Infatti gli altri film dei Vanzina dopo quello non incassarono tanto.

 Che ci sara' un "olocausto palestinese" mi pare un po dubbio.
Se sara'una tragedia per le comunita'ebraiche, non oso pensare a cosa
significhera'per quelle arabe.
Seguono dei files interessanti prelevati da 
http://www.btselem.org
.
Marco
  =20
   Legitimizing Torture:
  =20
   The Israeli High Court of Justice Rulings
   in the Bilbeisi, Hamdan and Mubarak Cases
  =20
   January 1997=20
  =20
  =20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
  =20
  =20
   Introduction
  =20
   In the course of 1996, the Israeli Supreme Court sitting as High Court
   of Justice (HCJ) has heard dozens of appeals by Palestinian detainees
   complaining of physical and psychological methods of "pressure"
   applied by General Security Service (GSS) interrogators.
  =20
   The HCJ has on several occations issued orders nisi and interim
   injunctions temporarily prohibiting the GSS from using some or all of
   these measures. However, in the cases where the State appealed against
   such injunctions, the HCJ has consistently sided with the State,
   permitting the GSS to use physical force and a variety of specific
   means of "pressure."
  =20
   Both the legal justification for and the actual practices of
   interrogation were out-lined in 1987 by the Commission of Inquiry into
   the Methods of Investigation of the General Security Service Regarding
   Hostile Terrorist Activities (Landau Commission).
  =20
   The Commission recommended that the GSS use psychological pressure and
   a "moderate measure of physical pressure", detailed in its secret
   annex. By that Commission's own definition, such pressure "must not
   reach physical torture, ill-treatment of the interrogee or severe harm
   to his honour which deprives him of his human dignity".
  =20
   Nevertheless, as early as 1991, B'Tselem determined that the
   interrogation measures used in actual practice by the GSS constitute
   torture as defined by international legal instruments. Subsequently,
   this was reiterated by other human rights organisations, including
   Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
  =20
   In 1994, the Committee Against Torture (CAT), the UN body charged with
   suprevising the implementation of the Convention Against Torture and
   Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, stated
   that:
  =20
   The Landau Commission report, permitting as it does "moderate physical
   pressure" as a lawful mode of interrogation, is completely
   unacceptable to this Committee.
  =20
   Israel has not only ignored this unequivocal rejection of its policies
   and legal reasoning, but has since September 1994, allowed the GSS
   additional "special permissions" to use what the press has termed
   "enhanced physical pressure". These "special permissions", granted,
   ostensibly for a limited period of time, following a wave of terrorist
   attacks, have routinely been extended ever since.
  =20
   It should be emphasized that, far from being used only in special
   circumstances, torture methods are used against a large number of
   Palestinian detainees. According to the last official estimate, some
   23,000 Palestinians were interrogated by the GSS between 1987 and
   1994. According to the experience of B'Tselem and other human rights
   organisations, it is very rare indeed that the GSS interrogates
   Palestinians without using at least some of the methods described
   below. In 1995, following the death of a Palestinian detainee as a
   result of "shaking", the then Prime Minister, the late Yitzhak Rabin,
   said that this method had been used against 8,000 detainees.
  =20
   Not even the death of that detainee has persuaded the Israeli
   government or, for that matter, the Supreme Court, to order the GSS to
   refrain from using either the method of "shaking", or any other of its
   harsh interrogation methods.
  =20
  =20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
   Torture During Interrogations:=20
   Testimony of Palestinian Detainees and Israeli Interrogators=20
   November 1994=20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
  =20
  =20
   - Summary -
  =20
   The methods of interrogation used by the Israeli General Security
   Service (GSS) against Palestinian detainees were previously surveyed
   in four B'Tselem reports. In its 1991 comprehensive report on the
   subject, B'Tselem concluded that "according to all official criteria,
   these methods of interrogation ... belong to the category of torture."
  =20
  =20
   This report provides an up-to-date picture of the GSS's and Israel
   Defense Force's interrogation methods. It includes testimony and
   affidavits of Palestinians interrogated by the GSS and IDF in recent
   months. The report also presents testimony of GSS agents given in the
   course of suppression hearings (mini- trials), which are held when the
   accused contends that a confession was extracted by unlawful means and
   is, therefore, inadmissible. When such a contention is made, the court
   interrupts the trial regarding the criminal charge and determines
   whether to sustain the accused's claim.
  =20
   In one mini-trial, District Court Judge Moshe Talgam wrote in his
   decision of March 9, 1994 disallowing the confession of a Palestinian
   defendant:
     The interrogators testified, and completely denied that
     there had been any physical injury, but they admitted that
     the interrogations were lengthy, and that it was possible
     that the defendant was not allowed to rest for seventy-two
     hours [...] I have no doubt that under the system in which
     interrogators rotate, and interrogate the defendant for
     twenty-four hours consecutively once, and for nearly forty-
     eight hours consecutively a second time, the interrogee
     experiences very great suffering (Mini-trial in Criminal
     File 201/93).
  =20
  =20
   The U.N. Convention Against Torture, ratified by Israel, defines
   "torture" as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether
   physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person..." (Art.
   1)
  =20
   In citing the language of the Convention Against Torture, the Israel
   District Court joined a long list of human rights organizations that
   have stated in recent years that the methods of interrogation used by
   the GSS constitute, at least in their cumulative effect over time,
   torture according to the criteria employed by the international
   community.
  =20
   As this report reveals, sleep deprivation is only one of numerous
   methods which the GSS admits using. The GSS admits to routinely
   employing methods that degrade and humiliate detainees, impair their
   physical and mental health, and cause them great pain.
  =20
   Testimonies of Palestinians, as well as testimonies by GSS agents and
   police officers, confirm that the following interrogation methods
   continue to be used by the security forces when interrogating
   Palestinians:
    1. Insults and abuse
    2. Threats to harm the detainee or his family
    3. Sleep and food deprivation
    4. Covering the head with a sack for hours, and even days
    5. Imprisoning the detainee in solitary confinement, sometimes while
       in a painful position
    6. Tying up the detainee for extended periods in painful positions
    7. Use of collaborators to extract information or a confession, by or
       with the threat of violence
    8. Forced physical exercise
    9. Imprisonment under extreme heat, cold or filth
   10. Severe blows to the body with fists, sticks and other instruments
      =20
   Notwithstanding recent political developments in the region, it is
   difficult to discern any improvement regarding interrogation methods.
   The habitual use of torture in the interrogation of Palestinians
   continues.
  =20
   Of the nine Palestinians who were interviewed for this report, seven
   were released without any criminal charges being filed against them,
   one was sentenced to seven months in prison, and one is still awaiting
   trial. The repeated claim that "pressure" was used against detainees
   because of the need to prevent murderous attacks is a mere pretext in
   these cases; the same is true of the overwhelming majority of cases in
   which detainees are tortured. In any event, the interrogation methods
   are inconsistent with the categorical prohibition of torture.
  =20
   The report also includes a brief analysis of the interrogation of
   Jewish settlers suspected of activities in the "Underground"
   organization.
  =20
   In November 1994, the Ministerial Committee on GSS Matters decided to
   permit GSS interrogators to use additional methods of pressure during
   interrogations of Palestinians.
  =20
   B'Tselem is of the opinion that not only are additional methods
   unwarranted, but that the use of any method contrary to international
   law must be prohibited. The government of Israel must take urgent
   steps that will put an end, once and for all, to the torture of
   detainees under interrogation.
  =20
  =20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
   Detained Without Trial:=20
   Administrative Detention in the Occupied Territories Since the
   Beginning of the Intifada=20
   October 1992=20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
  =20
  =20
   - Summary -
  =20
   The report includes the following sections:=20
    1. Introduction;
    2. Administrative Detention in International Law;
    3. Historical Background;
    4. The Detainees;
    5. Conditions of Internment at Ketziot;
    6. Conclusions and Recommendations.
      =20
   Over 14,000 administrative detention orders have been issued to
   Palestinians since the beginning of the Intifada. Most of these
   detainees received a six-month administrative detention order, some
   had their detentions extended by an additional six months, while a few
   were detained for several years without trial.
  =20
   At the writing of the report, Israel's use of administrative detention
   had decreased. At the end of September, 1992, there were 185
   Palestinians in administrative detention. In the course of the
   Intifada there have been periods when the number of Palestinians taken
   into administrative detention per month hovered around the 1,500 mark.
  =20
  =20
   Eleven Palestinians received, around the writing of the report,
   six-month administrative detention orders as a substitute for
   deportation orders, which had been cancelled by the new Israeli
   government.
  =20
   According to international law, the arrest and detention of persons
   without trial is permitted only in situations of unusual and absolute
   necessity. International regulations have laid out clear restrictions
   and guidelines governing the use of detention without trial, which
   emphasize above all that administrative detention is a preventive
   measure that can in no way be used as a substitute for punishment.
  =20
   This report describes in detail the criteria in Israeli and
   international law for issuing administrative detention orders. It then
   describes how the authorities have used this sanction in the
   territories since the beginning of the Intifada. The report seeks to
   determine whether administrative detention, as employed by Israel in
   the territories, is in fact being used as a preventive measure. The
   report then examines the dangers these detentions purport to prevent.
   As most of the administrative detainees (since March 1988) had been
   held in the Ketziot detention camp in the Negev desert, the report
   examines conditions in Ketziot and seeks to evaluate whether they
   complied with the requirements of international law.
  =20
   Since the beginning of the Intifada, until the report was issued, the
   use of administrative detention had grown to monstrous proportions,
   and over 14,000 administrative detention orders had been issued.
  =20
   Both those who unilaterally oppose the use of administrative
   detention, and those who consider it permissible to use this authority
   in rare and extreme cases, reject the sweeping use that has been made
   of administrative detention in the Israeli-occupied territories. Its
   use is invalid and illegal for the following reasons:
    1. Use of administrative detention in the occupied territories is for
       purposes of punishment, not prevention.
    2. Administrative detention procedures and appeals are illegal
    3. The location of Ketziot, where most of the administrative
       detainees were held, was illegal; the conditions of the facility
       were illegal and inhuman.
      =20
   The report enumerates grave shortcomings in the areas of health,
   nutrition and living conditions, and discusses the extreme crowding in
   the tents and the exposure to the difficult climatic conditions in
   Ketziot. The report does not, however, include recommendations for
   improving these conditions, since our position was that the entire
   camp should have been closed down. Israel, as part of the
   international community, is obligated to uphold the minimum conditions
   stipulated by the U.N.; lack of prison space, or lack of funds, are
   not considerations which justify these pronounced violations of
   fundamental rights.
  =20
  =20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
   Sexual Harassment in the Name of the Law:=20
   Violence and Degradation During Searches of Palestinian Homes in
   Hebron=20
   December 1996=20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
  =20
  =20
   - Summary -
  =20
   B'Tselem has released a report documenting violent and degrading
   searches which took place in ten Palestinian apartments in Hebron.
   Testimonies given to B'Tselem by persons residing in the apartments
   raise two disturbing phenomena:
    1. Strip Searches of Women: The security forces forced fifteen
       Palestinian women, ranging in age from 20 to 69, to undress from
       head to toe in the presence of women soldiers and/or policewomen.
       In two instances, women were required to undress in full vision of
       a male police officer. Thirteen children, aged one month to 14
       years old, were also undressed. In some cases, women were
       compelled to undress in front of their relatives, their children
       and other children. Screams, curses, and beatings accompanied the
       order to undress in several cases. Although men were also present
       in most of the apartments, only one man was also required to
       undress.
      =20
    2. Threats, Violence and Property Damage: During the house searches,
       the security forces broke furniture and utensils, dumped food on
       the floor, and tore mattresses, clothes and pictures. In some of
       the instances, the security forces threatened family members. One
       soldier threatened to kill a woman's two-year-old daughter if the
       mother did not move away from the window, and in another case, a
       woman soldier threatened to kill a woman if she did not reveal
       information about her husband.
      =20
   The fact that only women and children were ordered to undress, while
   in every case but one the men were not required to undergo this
   degradation, indicates that this measure was taken to humiliate the
   women and their families. This together with the contemptuous and
   violent treatment of the residents and their property, and the fact
   that almost none of the residents were detained reinforce the
   suspicion that the violence and degradation were intentional and
   totally unrelated to security needs.
  =20
   This report is written a short time after exposure of the Border
   Police's abuse of Palestinians at the A-Ram checkpoint. Following this
   incident, security force officials stated the need to eradicate the
   phenomenon of ill treatment. While these declarations were being made,
   soldiers and police were abusing women and children in Hebron. These
   acts raise doubts about the intention of those officials to act
   seriously in this matter. B'Tselem urges the Israeli government to end
   this conduct:
    1. The government must unequivocally instruct its security forces not
       to order women to undress, and not to offend their honor in any
       other way; the government must instruct its security forces that
       during house searches, they must safeguard personal property and
       refrain from causing damage;
      =20
    2. If directives exist allowing such conduct, the authorities must
       immediately revoke them and take measures against those who
       instituted them;
      =20
    3. The authorities must thoroughly investigate the events described
       in this report and prosecute any soldier or police officer who
       engaged in wrongoing.
      =20
   Postscript: The day B'Tselem issued this report, Police searched
   another house in Hebron and strip searched four women. None of the men
   in the house were required to undress.
  =20
   Download full report
   Run the file you have downloaded to extract the Word 6.0 file.
  =20
  =20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20

 Rick


George Torrieri wrote:
 GT> Vi sono film che sono destinati a diventare block-busters 
 GT> indipendentemente dall'abilita del regista, attori ecc. semplicemente
 GT> per la grandiosita degli effetti speciali (o delle tette di una delle
 GT> attrici, se e per questo).
 GT> Pero, dopo qualche anno, quando gli effetti speciali sono stati
 GT> migliorati
 GT> (e l'attrice mandata in pensione e sostituita da un'altra) questo film
 GT> sara bellamente dimenticato e tale restera per l'eternita.
 GT> D'altra parte vi sono film che saranno anche non tanto popolari al
 GT> release,
 GT> ma continueranno ad essere ammirati a decenni dopo la loro uscita,
 GT> a dispetto dei cambiamenti del mondo del cinema.
 GT> Ebbene, QUESTI sono i VERI grandi film.
Ammirati DA CHI? Dalle stesse poche persone che li hanno visti quando sono
usciti? Sarebbero questi i "VERI grandi film"?
Se un film non ha successo quando esce, scordatelo che abbia successo
decenni dopo la sua uscita. I casi sono talmente rari che non possono
neanche essere presi in considerazione.
Rick

 neanche essere presi in considerazione.
"Blues brothers", considerato alla sua uscita un expensive flop, e il
primo
a venirmi in mente.
Star Trek (vabbeh, non e un film ma una serie televisiva, ma ci siamo)
che
qualche anno dopo l'uscita minaccio di chiudere perche nessuno lo stava 
guardando, e un'altro.
Se ragioni nelle altre forme d'arte come fai tu con i film, un bel po
d'artisti
(Van Gogh e tutti gli espressionisti, per esempio) sarebbero oggi
ignoti.
