Newsgroup: it.politica
Titolo: Interview on Yugoslavia: "Bombed because we refuse to be slaves"

"Bombed because we refuse to be slaves…"
Greg Elich is interviewed here by Jared Israel.
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Jared: So how was Yugoslavia?
Greg: Overwhelming. The trip was overwhelming. In the positive sense, it
is such a beautiful country and a beautiful people and you can see how
much people care for each other. You get a feeling that's quite
different from what I see here where people are isolated and they just
work and they go home. In Yugoslavia social interaction is part of
society; friends and family are very important. That was something I
very much appreciated and felt comfortable with. It was very, very
refreshing. Also, intelligent discourse from any ordinary citizen you
run into. The people are definitely politically savvy . In the negative
regard it was overwhelming in that the destruction that we saw was
absolutely appalling. I had read about it, but reading about something
and then seeing it, those are two different things.
Jared: It's shocking?
Greg: It is shocking and it affected my sleep. I had trouble sleeping. I
still do. I can't get rid of these images. And talking with people,
these interviews we conducted, if anything their stories are even more
horrific than what we saw.
Jared: What did you see?
A residential street, pockmarks
Greg: Initially in Belgrade we saw many destroyed buildings including
homes, people's homes. We went to Panchevo. That's where they had all
the chemical plants that were bombed and the massive poisoning of the
environment - vinyl chloride monomers and hydrochloric acid. Hundreds of
tons of these dangerous chemicals were released into the environment
from the bombing.
We saw that and interviewed people. Went to Novi Sad and saw destroyed
buildings - a bombed apartment building - a bombed elementary school -
bombed bridges - a bombed petrol chemical plant - a bird soaked in oil
that was near death. We went down to Nis and saw the neighborhood - just
a regular residential street, or streets, I should say, where they
dropped several cluster bombs.
Jared: Did they look like American streets?
Greg: No it's quite different. How to describe it - the whole style is
different. The streets are more narrow and at the end of the street
there's a market place and it was very busy the day they dropped those
cluster bombs.
Jared: That was where they hit the market?
Greg: That's it. Actually these cluster bombs fell on about three or
four streets in the area - they dropped them all over and you could see
the walls everywhere pock-marked with literally thousands of holes from
shrapnel. You could walk for blocks and blocks around and all you saw
were people's homes. It was strictly a residential area. It was
deliberate murder. We saw autopsy photographs of the victims including a
woman who was 7 months pregnant. She was killed along with the unborn
baby. The autopsy photographs were absolutely horrific because when
these cluster bombs went off thousands of pieces of shrapnel and metal
were sent flying - they literally tore people to shreds. In Nis we also
saw a hospital and a parking lot that had cluster bombs dropped on it
and I think in this case they used the new kind of cluster bomb the
Pentagon was anxious to introduce - the BLU-97 which not only sprays
shrapnel but is super heated so that anything it hits not only gets torn
to shreds it also burns. You had all these cars in the parking lot that
were burnt.
Jared: That hot?
Greg: Yes. I don't know if you remember the Albanian refugees who were
bombed in Djakovica? They were hit with these new cluster bombs too and
the bodies were just burnt to black charcoal. We saw pictures of that
too by the way. We saw another elementary school that was bombed,
several factories that were bombed. We went to Aleksinac, a small mining
town. They have a very strong Socialist Party government there. Actually
we were surprised at how quickly they have started to rebuild. In this
one whole neighborhood that was completely wiped out by bombs they had
cleared all the rubble away and they were starting to build again
already. It was remarkable. We went to Surdulica, another neighborhood
that had been bombed and again they had cleared it away and they were
starting to build already so the spirit of these people is incredible.
They won't be defeated.
A red cross and other targets
In Surdulica they also took us to a sanitarium that was off in the
woods. There was nothing around it. They had buildings for elderly
people, handicapped people and refugees were living there. Several NATO
missiles struck the sanitarium. Twenty four people were killed, over 100
mutilated. The blast was so powerful that it literally sent body parts
flying as far as 1 km away. They told us that body parts were hanging
from trees all around and blood was dripping. By the time we got there
they had cleaned up but you could still see clothes hanging in the
trees. It was absolutely horrific. And bombs struck this building at
midnight when people were sleeping. On top of one building was painted a
large red cross.
Jared: They couldn't miss it?
Greg: No. We went inside. There was just utter destruction.
Jared: How far is it from there to anything that would be considered a
military target?
Greg: I saw nothing as far as the eye could see. This was off in the
woods. There was nothing; this stood alone, this sanitarium.
Beautiful scenery…
We also stopped in Grdelica in southern Serbia where the scenery is
absolutely gorgeous, breathtaking. You have these hills and mountains
covered in lush green and deep ravines and beautiful villages and
driving through this beauty all of a sudden we were confronted with the
horror of this scene at Grdelica where they bombed this bridge and this
passenger train.
Jared: That's where they hit the passenger train…and then they came
back and hit it again, hit the rescuers?
Greg: Yes….
Jared: And they hit the ambulance, right?
Greg: Yes…exactly…You saw these passenger trains just burnt and you
can imagine the horror in there because nothing could have survived. I
think a Western report I read implied that oh they intended to bomb the
bridge and it was just an accident that the train was going across this
bridge at the same time…Well, the train was not going over the bridge,
the tracks went under the bridge and so they were bombing the bridge and
at the same time separately bombing the tracks and the train.
Jared: They couldn't have hit the train by bombing the bridge?
Greg: Precisely…
Jared: So what they showed us in the papers, which was the broken bridge
and the train below, was deceptive. It wasn't that the train fell off
the bridge which was what you thought from the picture.
Greg: And not only the picture was deceptive but the words. The reports
were deceptive because they implied that the train had fallen off the
bridge. It was never up there. This was a highway bridge, the tracks
went underneath at right angles to the highway bridge overhead.
Jared: Aha..so it was a highway bridge over a railroad bed in a ravine?
Greg: Exactly. And the two things formed a "T". They completely lied
about that.
Jared: So it would have been a difficult shot to bomb the train.
Greg: Exactly.
Chinese Embassy Bombing
Going back to Belgrade, we saw the Hotel Yugoslavia, which NATO bombed,
near the Chinese Embassy. That was horrific too. They not only bombed
the hotel rooms but the Casino and you know how crowded casinos can be
so I can imagine how many people died. Then we stopped at the Chinese
Embassy. Before I went I had in the back of my mind the thought that
maybe this was an accident…not that that would be excusable because to
target any building would be a crime. But once I saw this I had not the
slightest doubt. This Chinese embassy has a unique design. You could
drive around that neighborhood for a week and you're not going to see a
building that looks remotely like this. Furthermore this Chinese embassy
is surrounded by a field, unlike any other building. I'm convinced it
was deliberate.
Jared: And the missiles didn't hit anything but the building?
Greg: They targeted it very precisely. The destruction was appalling.
I'm amazed that more people didn't die.
We went to a couple of refugee camps in Zemun Polje. Talked to dozens of
Roma ["Gypsy"] refugees, to the Egyptian member of the Yugoslav
delegation [at the so-called peace talks] at Rambouillet. We talked to
three Albanian refugees, including one of two Albanian representatives
of the Yugoslav delegation at Rambouillet. He mentioned that there were
150,000 Albanians driven out by the KLA because they were pro-Yugoslav.
He was asked about the stories of Serbian atrocities and he said they
were basically a lie. The Yugoslav Army was very disciplined. Romas also
said the same thing. In fact some Romas said it was an honor to serve in
the Yugoslav army for their multi-ethnic state. These refugees were
living in appalling conditions. You can imagine. Yugoslavia is burdened
with a million refugees from various wars and is suffering under
sanctions
Jared: As harsh as those imposed on Iraq?
Greg: Yes. So the whole society in under a strain and the weakest point
is these refugees. One Roma settlement was terribly overcrowded because
they had a huge influx of refugees from Kosovo.
NATO's role in KLA terror
Jared: What about the reports that you hear that the Milosevic
government has told policemen to turn the refugees back?
Greg: I don't know about that report. You know people are free wheeling
in their conversation and nobody, and certainly no refugee ever
mentioned anything about that. As far as I can see they are getting some
food assistance and the government arranges places for these people to
live. It does what it can but its resources are limited. We also went to
a Serbian refugee camp south of Belgrade. These people were driven out
by the KLA after KFOR [NATO troops] came in and like the Roma and the
Albanians they all told the same story: "We saw KFOR coming over the
hill into our village with KLA troops right with them and the KLA troops
started burning the houses and killing the people and KFOR did nothing
and we just ran for our lives with just the clothes on our back." Ran
with the clothes they wore…
People would talk about how relatives were killed or tortured by the
KLA. We have story after story. One person told how KFOR troops stood on
top of a hill laughing while they watched KLA troops beating his uncle
to death.
Beaten to death, tortured, just killed outright . Sometimes they went to
KFOR and complained - "well my relative has been kidnapped, can you help
me?" KFOR would not help A couple of Romas said that when they went to
KFOR for help, saying that KLA troops had threatened them that they
better leave immediately or get killed - KFOR said, "then you should
go."
Jared: So the KFOR was the bystander, always present, never active.
Greg: Yes. And in some ways even aiding.
Jared: In other words, coordinating with the KLA but avoiding the
appearance of active participation?
Greg: Right. We had one man show a photograph of his burned down home
with "UCK," that's the Albanian acronym for KLA painted on the remainder
of his home…a German armored car is in the background and in the
foreground you can see a man plundering what was left…..
Greg: In other words there's a German armored car there, there's someone
plundering the home, and they're not doing anything?
Greg: Right.
Jared: So KFOR was in charge and they let the KLA do the dirty work -
the KLA was their dogs of war,
Greg: Story after story.
Silencing the voices of protest
Greg: We talked to Bajram Haliti, a very charming man who had a
prominent position in a Roma social organization. He had a home in
Kosovo. He's an expert on the genocide against the Romas in WWII and he
wrote a book on it and was kind enough to give us a copy. He had a
personal library of 500 books on the topic. The KLA burned down his home
and his library and research - he lost everything. He showed us a list
with over 300 names that NATO countries have issued, of Yugoslav
citizens who are not allowed a visa to travel abroad and he's on this
list. He's just the head of a Roma social organization and edits a
magazine on Romas and non-violence.
Jared: They have him on the list because they don't want him to travel
and tell his story?
Greg: Exactly. He showed us this list. It's not only every government
official, also people from social organizations, basically anybody of
prominence who is not in the right wing opposition. He heard that same
day that the list has been expanded substantially. He felt, along with
his associates, that if they do travel abroad, they'll be arrested. And
probably he's right. A man who edits a magazine on non-violence, a
brilliant, gentle man and if he travels abroad, he's likely to be
arrested on trumped up charges. It's a political tool.
Serbian opposition: weak
Jared: You mentioned the opposition - a lot of the Serbs in America
support it. They're very hostile to the Serbian government. How strongly
is it backed in Yugoslavia?
Greg: In Yugoslavia it's completely the opposite. Virtually everybody
rightly sees the leaders of this right wing opposition as opportunists
out for personal gain. Even many who belong to these parties have no
illusions about their leaders. Ordinary citizens who are in these
parties give a different kind of argument than you might expect: "We
realize that the united states is much more powerful than us so maybe if
we give the United States what it wants it will leave us alone."
Jared: I don't think that's unusual.
Greg: Over here?
Jared: Yes…that's the argument made by Serbian Americans who opposed
the bombing and now say Serbia should give the US government what it
wants because they can't win
Greg: Of course that's naïve because once they have what they want
it's going to be far worse off..
Jared: The question is whether the United States government wants, in
fact, to stop fighting or actually wants to continue fighting and the
purpose of the opposition is to give KFOR an excuse to intervene again,
this time in Belgrade. Just as they used the KLA as an excuse. The KLA
would do something provocative, the Yugoslavs would counterattack and
the NATO people could yell: Atrocities!
Some people are saying if we go with the opposition, they won't hurt us
any more. But my own feeling, my own personal opinion, is that the
Untied States government wants to hurt Serbia more.
Greg: I think they're just after control of the labor and the resources
and they don't care how they get it.
Jared: I think they want more war - because they want to destroy the
forces that exist there that could be trouble in the future.
Greg: Well they have more than one way they can do that.
Jared: That's true. They have more than one way they can do that. But
getting back to the opposition, you call it a right wing opposition…
Greg: The right wing is far less powerful than Western newspapers would
have you believe.
Jared: They don't have these demonstrations of thousands of people?
Greg: I never saw a demonstration of even one person. And we spent most
of our time in Belgrade. We talked to hundreds and hundreds of ordinary
citizens and it's clear to me that the government has tremendous
support. People are firmly behind this government and the right wing is
definitely a minority.
Free to roam
Jared: To what extent could your trip be described as staged?
Greg: We had meetings with government officials. That was the only time
the government had any involvement. We were free to go where we wanted
and talk to whomever we wanted. We did exactly that.
Jared: In other words you just talked to people you ran into?
Greg: Exactly. And we went off in separate ways many times too, so that
multiplied our efforts. We had some people wandering around cities
stopping people at random and talking.
Jared: Did you all speak Serbian?
Greg: We managed to get translators many times. Other times, you'd be
surprised. Many people speak English.
Jared: And if you stop people who speak English you're more likely to be
talking to someone who is pro-US government -
Greg: Exactly.
Jared: So you'd be getting a sample that might be more sympathetic to
the opposition than the average?
Greg: Yes. What support there is for the right wing opposition is mainly
lukewarm but there is very strong and firm support for the government
and socialism. I ran into that over and over again. It was clear just in
the way they frame their dialogue, that they're starting with
assumptions based on a socialist society and a commitment...
Jared: You think that Yugoslavia is a socialist society?
Greg: Yes, yes - well you know it's a mixed economy, right?
Jared: Because the charge that's made is that's it's a thief-ocracy.
Greg: I'm sorry, what?
Jared: A kleptocracy - that the government is thieves. It's charged that
Milosevic has amassed a huge fortune…
Greg: Has he?
Jared: I don't know. I'm just asking …I'm telling you what people say.
Greg: Oh yes in Western newspapers…
Jared: Not just Western newspapers - a lot of Serbian Americans say it
..
Greg: American Serbs are not the same as Serbs in Yugoslavia. You have
to keep in mind that after WWII, most Chetniks [Serbian nationalists
opposed to socialism] left Yugoslavia and went to the United States and
had a very heavy influence on the thinking of the population here. And
it's a completely different sampling you might say of the population .
At Aleksinac we had lunch with officials of the local Socialist
government and we talked about the economy in detail. Of course you have
a lot of street vendors in the private sector. Small store owners in the
private sector - large factories virtually 100% state owned - smaller
factories and enterprises run as cooperatives - worker owned.
Agriculture - large state farms are run as cooperatives but smaller ones
are privately owned. It's kind of a mixed economy but there's a heavy
emphasis on socialism still. Actually more than I expected after all
these years. And there's still a lot of enthusiasm for that - we ran
into that over and over.
Jared: Is that right?
Greg: Yes. People are determined not to give up what they have. The
people know exactly what the United States is after and they say so
openly and they know and they're determined to defend their country and
their system. We talked to one worker in an Electrical Transformation
plant that had been bombed and he said the reason we were bombed is
because we refused to be slaves. To me that sums it up.
(To be continued, Emperors-clothes.com, week of 8/23)
Greg Elich went to Yugoslavia as part of a group of 13 called the North
American Solidarity With Yugoslavia Delegation, co-led by
writer/educators Barry Lituchy and Michael Parenti. The trip's goals
were to interview people, distribute humanitarian aid and collect
documentation for Ramsey Clark's Independent Commission to Investigate
US/NATO War Crimes Against Yugoslavia. Mr. Elich is a Contributing
Editor to Emperors-clothes.com.
Emperors-Clothes.com

 Greg: Exactly.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH :))))))))))))))))))))
Adesso chi e' contro gli USA deve disimparare l'inglese :)
Chi sa l'inglese probabilmente e' un collaborazionista dei massacratori
mondiali che sono gli USA :)
-Stefano