Newsgroup: it.arti.musica.classica
Titolo: MADONNA triumphs at Bavarian State Opera

Have any posters witnessed the exhibit on popster MADONNA (yes!)
currently
in place at the once-venerable-but-now-venereal Bavarian State Opera
in Munich?  What exactly in heavens is up with that?
About the house's Indentant (sic), "Sir" Peter Jonas of industrial
working-class yet trendy ENO infamy, inquiring minds want to know:
what is his religious affiliation?
No need to discuss Zubin Mehta, please, since we all know who his best
friends are.
Meanwhile, the disintegration (as in lack of integrity) of the artform
rolls downhill...stronger, faster, harder.

Has anyone here witnessed the exhibit on popster MADONNA (yes!) currently in
place at the once-venerable-but-now-venereal Bavarian State Opera in Munich?
What exactly in heavens is up with that?
About the house's Indentant (sic), "Sir" Peter Jonas of industrial-strength-
working-class yet trendy ENO infamy, inquiring minds want to know:
what is his religious affiliation?  No need to discuss Zubin Mehta, please,
since we all know who his best friends are.
Meanwhile, the disintegration (as in lack of integrity) of the artform
rolls downhill...stronger, faster, harder.  ***Opera? For All*** indeed.
Were Wolfgang Sawallisch dead he'd be spinning in his grave.

just when you think that gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby has plumbed
the depths of the cesspool that is his mind, he demonstrates once more
that his capacity for being a vile subhuman is infinite. i think that he
was discussing the opera house in bavaria that has [disputes
notwithstanding] hired for seasons past and future a soprano named studer.
guess those zoroastrians  are finally in control.
gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby, in the immortal words of a guy here
named andre, fuck you, up, down and sideways, to which one might add, in
concentric circles.
dft
===========================
pineiro wrote:

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
Dear Pineiro, 
the Wolfgang is doing file in Philadelphia as far I know and, as it comes
to Madonna in Bavarian opera house, nothing new here really. Wasn't that 
in the late 60ties and 70ties the british rockers who "experimented" with
classical orchestras in Albert Hall?
For me the State Opera has not lost any of it's magic because this 
swearing lady (boy, what English you can learn from here!) performed 
on the same stage on which once Strauss was premiered. Maybe there is 
even something good about that: Some people might have seen the first
time in their lifes how an opera looks inside. 
Thomas.

just when you think that gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby has plumbed
the depths of the cesspool that is his mind, he demonstrates once more
that his capacity for being a vile subhuman is infinite. i think that he
was discussing the opera house in bavaria that has [disputes
notwithstanding] hired for seasons past and future a soprano named studer.
guess those zoroastrians  are finally in control.
gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby, in the immortal words of a guy here
named andre, fuck you, up, down and sideways, to which one might add, in
concentric circles.
dft
===========================
pineiro wrote:

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----


this is absolutely ridiculous.
since when were there "rules" regarding what an opera house can or can't
do?  which reminds me--since when was opera "good" and pop "bad?" and who
qualified anybody to definitely make that judgement?
I respect your attitude of perhaps not appreciating the exhibit itself, or
not even liking madonna (it's so funny how "venerable" is synonymous with
"sexually repressed and uptight"), or even objecting to the site of the
exhibit because you don't like it artistically or something.  If you think
it's tacky, then say it's tacky--don't beat around the bush and put on
your little indignant "culture just got flushed down the toilet" attitude
because there have been people like that all throughout history saying
that about the things you call venerable.  You think Verdi really "gave a
shit" when the critics hated his music?  Who was the "popster" then?
and fine, whatever, it's great that perhaps having the exhibit at an opera
house may introduce some people to what an opera house looks like on the
inside, but that's still smatters of a really "high-brow" mentality where
everyone should see the inside of an opera house (or better yet an opera)
because their lives aren't complete without it.  I highly doubt any of you
would encourage yourselves to attend a rock concert or go to a stage where
they're performed because it'll be enlightening and an experience--and
there's the danger and the prejudice.  The most tragic thing is that opera
is dying out as an art form--people who genuinely can enjoy it or at least
want to experience it will not longer have the opportunities to see good
operas performed.  However, just as there will be some who read this ng
who won't go to a rock concert or even listen to more current popular
music and won't think their lives any poorer for it, there are some on the
other side of the fence.  And that's just how it is, no good no bad.
what's ridiculous is pretending that you're somehow better because you
haven't been "contaminated" by the influence of a "baser" culture.  Heaven
forbid that any of attend one of your gloriously high brow events and a
vaunted and very well-respected opera house that sullied it's image (or
worse yet, the entire grounds) by holding an exhibit on madonna.  the
likelihood of the matter is that there were probably even more
invigorating scandals nobody knows about--pedophilia, rape, illicit love
affairs, extortion, murder, drug-dealing, etc...probably have happened
somewhere in the houses, given how long they've been around.  you want to
go see an opera in a place where that's happened?  (probably, considering
what most opera's are about).
by all means indulge in a great evening--eat gourmet food, dress
nicely...it's about having fun.  but the minute you act superior about it
is just revolting.
and for the record--Madonna was a dancer in Martha Graham's dance company,
much beloved by Ms. Graham, in fact.  Go read "Blood Memory."  Ms. Graham
once replied (not in these words) to someone who couldn't understand her
friendship with Madonna, claiming it was "not respectable,"  "a true
artist doesn't care to be respectable, in fact, the two probably don't
exist together very well."
-Po


Wow! Way to go, Po.  (sorry folks)
Talk about shot down in flames.......
I couldn't agree more, although my reasons are perhaps less idealistic.
Someone wants to pay the rent..renter needs the money..Voila.
AndreEdouard 
--Time for All-Star Game--Bye


Regrettable, I agree, but what does the man's religion have
to do with anything?


 what is his religious affiliation?
You mean, Henry Fogel's predecessor at the CSO?
He once ruined a performance of Honegger's *King David* -- the William
Ferris Chorale sang in beautifully enunciated American English, and he
narrated in the Queen's English.
-- 
Peter T. Daniels     
gram...@worldnet.att.net

 narrated in the Queen's English.
And this ruins the performance?  If you are so sensitive that inconsistent
accents renders you incapable of enjoying a performance, I pity you.
mdl

 narrated in the Queen's English.
Was it ruined for you only or were audience, performers and critics
similarly affected?
MJHaslam


How do the two of you feel about e.g. the Met's Fledermaus, where the
dialog was in English and the singing in German?
How would you have reacted to those operatic miscegenations where the
imported divas sang in Italian and the resident company sang in the
local language?
The performers, of course, had no say in the matter (Bill Ferris is a
wonderful choral technician and a pretty good conductor, but he is a bit
of a snob); the Tribune's critic (in my day) attended every concert but
didn't once publish a review; and I have no idea what the rest of the
audience thought.


 audience thought.
You went on your own, and didn't even stop for a drink and a chat afterwards?
What language was King David written in?
MJHaslam

 dialog was in English and the singing in German?
I'm not sure, but I think I'm the other of "the two" here.
I of course object to anything done by the Met, as a matter of principle. :-)
On the more general question of performing opera comique with the singing
in the original language and the dialogue in the language of the audience,
I am very much in favor of it.
I believe that performing in a language the audience understands is a good
thing.  With regard to singing, there is the counter-consideration that it
is difficult or impossible to find a translation that captures sufficient
meaning of the original without disrupting to the musical setting of the
text. That's a valid objection, and it goes a long way toward justifying
singing in a language the audience doesn't understand.
But with dialogue, the objection is trivial.  A reasonable translation can
easily be made, and there is almost no value in having the actors speak a
foreign language that neither they nor the audience knows well just because
that's the language the author wrote it in.  To leave the singing in the
original language while translating the dialogue is a perfectly sensible
solution.
If it's just a few lines of spoken text -- like Rodolfo's lines at the end
of Boheme, or Violetta reading her letter aloud in Traviata -- then there
is some value in staying consistent, so that the abrupt change of language
isn't distracting. But where there is extensive dialogue, I think it's
ludicrous to perform spoken exchanges, which exist primarily for the
purpose of communicating the story to the audience, in a language which the
audience doesn't understand.
I've been in a performance (Offenbach's Perichole) where the recitatives
and some of the choruses were in English, while the arias and arioso
passages were in the original French. I thought that worked very well.
Earlier this year I saw the premiere of an opera in which both the
librettist and the setting were of bilingual Hispanic America. The text was
about 80% English and 20% Spanish. I thought that worked very well also.
mdl
proud product of miscegenation

 What language was King David written in?
French.


 proud product of miscegenation
You must be very old ... there hasn't been any such thing [referring to
humans] anywhere since Virginia abolished it as a crime in the mid
1960s, and almost anywhere else for decades before that.


 French.
This is interesting. I don't speak French but I am aware that classical sung
pronunciation differs from normal spoken French. Perhaps what you heard in your
"ruined" concert was an attempt to recreate the difference between the sung and
spoken texts that might exist in a performance in the original language.
MJHaslam

 with half a dozen or so of the choristers.
So... Did they think the performance had been *ruined*. You still feel strongly
enough about it but I suspect you will have forgotten the reaction of your fellow
diners.
MJHaslam

 diners.
Mr. Jonas was not too popular in Chicago because of things (I don't
remember what) that transpired at the CSO. They didn't particularly like
him, let alone his performance.
Things were quite different when Sir Peter Pears (post-stroke) came to a
concert and had a brief spoken part. He had been adored because of an
earlier singing engagement.


 1960s, and almost anywhere else for decades before that.
Nonsense. Miscegenation is simply the marriage of two individuals of
different races; it has nothing to do with crime. Miscegenation existed
long before any government was stupid enough to forbid it, and it will
continue to exist whether or not certain state governments have the sense
to unban it.
mdl

 to unban it.
"Miscegenation" is an ugly word, invented to turn exogamy into a crime.
We also don't say "mulatto" or "quadroon" or "Eurasian" or "half-breed"
much any more, either. Are you "proud" to be one of those as well, or do
you "own" some other derogatory term?


 but I feel differently."
Europeans just note that you are going on since three days without
realizing you are crossposting this also to it.arti.musica.classica
--------------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy        e-mail: 
ll...@dada.it
   Home page: 
http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
                   (musicologia pratica)

 of an entire subcontinent?
Why would you refer to a continent as a subcontinent?
John

 wrote in message
3B4D4E21...@dircon.co.uk...


 you "own" some other derogatory term?
"Miscegenation" is not an ugly word. It has a perfectly respectable
etymology with no negative connotations ("misce-" = mixed, as in
"immiscible").  I see no reason to abandon a word simply because it has
been used by bigots.  Among other things, it would require a change of
vocabulary every five or ten years.
I am indeed proud to be a half-breed.  I don't care for the word "Eurasian"
-- to me that sounds like someone from Eurasia [*], and it furthermore
neglects the fact that my cultural background is 100% American.  We don't
call every white American a "European", so why should we call a half-white
American a "Eurasian"?
mdl
[*] I do agree with you about the "subcontinent", by the way.


Look at a globe -- Europe is no more a continent than India is.


 [*] I do agree with you about the "subcontinent", by the way.
Hear hear!


 realizing you are crossposting this also to it.arti.musica.classica
When a crossposting appears in r.m.c., there's no way of knowing where
one of the correspondents is posting from.


 Look at a globe -- Europe is no more a continent than India is.
Ma che dice questo !?!
--
===========================
Marco Marcelli - Genova
marc...@libero.it
===========================

in article 
3B505...@att.net
, Peter T. Daniels at 
gram...@att.net
 wrote
on 7/14/01 6:43 AM:

How do you arrive at that conclusion?  There are, in fact, exactly seven
continents on the earth: Africa, Asia, N. America, S. America, Australia,
Antarctica, and one other.  For 100 points, and a lollypop, guess which one.
J

 Ma che dice questo !?!
E' una fissazione di diversi americani sui newsgroup delle gerarchie
internazionali. Secondo questa teoria l'Europa non ha dignita' di
continente in quanto e' solo una penisola dell'Asia e non un continente
separato. Questa teoria e' notevole in quanto, come tutte le fissazioni,
ritorna (diciamo, in media, una volta ogni due/tre mesi) anche nei
newsgroup che hanno un argomento assolutamente non correlato alla
geografia dei continenti.
Ah, le bellezze del crossposting.... 
(Problema che non mi sono mai posto: secondo voi il sud America e' una
penisola del nord America o viceversa?)


 bella merda
And the same to you :-)
MJHaslam

 separato.
" Da noi, l' amor proprio e la presunzione sono europei, ma i comportamenti
e i risultati sono asiatici."
                                           A. P. Cechov
E questa, chi gliela spiega....;-)
Moos

 For 100 points, and a lollypop, guess which one.
More "bait"?

 Why would you refer to a continent as a subcontinent?
Why would you refer to someone who posts "bait" as a "decent person"?

, 
bear...@earthlink.net
 says...

Orangie-mike-fred (pulling already heavily-used lollypop out of mouth 
with a loud, wet 'pop,' drool running down front of shirt): "Uhh... 
Baltimore?"
T.C.

So, about Peter Jonas, curious minds still want to know about his
'extracurricular' affiliations such as religious/ethnic background.
Not that it matters, right?
Nicky Palmer, Henry Fogel?

 Hopefully he'll soon enough tell us!
I suppose there is some truth to the inference.  The common theme here
seems to be that the persons so described reason that since there is no
shame in being of the particular description (race or sexual preference)
signified by the term, there also is no stigma attached to the word itself.
The negative connotation is provided only by those who use it with bigoted
intent, so it is foolish to abandon the word for exclusive use by those
people.
That is more or less how I feel about "miscegenation" -- with the
significant difference that in this case the negative connotation seems to
be much weaker to begin with.  Before Peter mentioned it, I honestly had no
idea that the term was invented by racists. (On this point, I am taking his
word for it, though my rudimentary research does seem to support the
claim.)
I had always assumed that the occasional perception of negativity in the
word was due merely to false etymology, that is, perceiving the "mis-" to
be a negative prefix, as in "misbehavior", "misunderstanding", "misuse",
etc, with the implication that "miscegenation" implies the behavior is
wrong.  (Hence my allusion to "niggardly", which is frequently objected to
on grounds of mistaken etymology.)
Perhaps it is different in other regions, but here in California, there is
almost no negative connotation to the word "miscegenation".  It's not a
terribly common word, but it's generally viewed as old-fashioned, not
derogatory.
In any case, even if it is conceded the term "miscegenation" was invented
entirely for the sake of criminalizing such behavior, it still does not
follow (as was originally claimed) that it no longer exists now that it is
unbanned.  You may as well say that adultery no longer exists in
California, since it is not a criminal offense here.
mdl

 Look at a globe -- Europe is no more a continent than India is.
Are you sure to be sober at all?
With this logic, USA and Canada are only peninsulae of North Pole.....!!
--
===========================
Marco Marcelli - Genova (Italy)
marc...@libero.it
===========================

 penisola del nord America o viceversa?)
Qui la teoria e' che un'istmo basta per separar le due continente --al par
di il Sinai non fa un continente singolo di l'Asia e l'Africa.
mdl
NB. Di sempre, per favore perdonare la mia lingua povera. Come il piu'
dell'americani, sono - al fondo - monoglotto.

 California, since it is not a criminal offense here.
Interesting that it's not entirely died out (or even making a comeback?)
there on the Left Coast. A major difference from "adultery" is the
word's date of origin: 1864 vs. 15th century. The _concept_ of
miscegenation couldn't even exist until the concept of "race" had been
invented (it's traditionally dated to Blumenbach in 1785, but that
interpretation is quite different from what B was saying), and its
stigmatization couldn't make sense until the very moment the word
appeared! (I.e., as soon as the act -- mixed marriage -- became legally
possible, a word for it got invented.)


 With this logic, USA and Canada are only peninsulae of North Pole.....!!
?? There is no land at all at the North Pole !!


 ?? There is no land at all at the North Pole !!
Don't worry.  You just maed acquaintance with the logic of
Marco Marcelli :-)
Roberto
-- 
  !!..    (i coniglietti credono di essere nascosti...)

 ?? There is no land at all at the North Pole !!
Ok ok folks!!
See here:
      continent
one of the larger continuous masses of land, namely, Asia, Africa, North
America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, and Australia, listed in order
of size. (Europe and Asia are sometimes considered a single continent,
Eurasia.)
(from 
britannica.com
)
So we can see Europa as a continent (but, i prefer for its history, not for
his "continuous masse of land") or as a part of a continent.
--
Giampaolo Bellavite, Milano     E-mail: 
bell...@3nd.it
ICQ: 99999936     Home page: 
http://www.3nd.it/bellavite

 ?? There is no land at all at the North Pole !!
Yeah!
And the sentence about Europe has no logic!
(whatever RobertoMariaAvanziMocenigo can think about).
--
===========================
Marco Marcelli - Genova
marc...@libero.it
===========================

 (whatever RobertoMariaAvanziMocenigo can think about).
Did I say Europe is not a continent?
From a strict geological point of view, however,
also India is a continent, separate from the rest
of Asia.  So P.T. Daniels' sentence could even be
turned around...
cheers
 Roberto
-- 
_/_/  Roberto Maria Avanzi Mocenigo  <><
/_/  Institut für Experimentelle Mathematik / Universität Essen
_/  "We teach people how to remember,
/   we never teach them how to grow."  Oscar Wilde

Vindication at last !!
Thank You,
Santa Claus......North Pole
-------------


 With this logic, USA and Canada are only peninsulae of North Pole.....!!
Guffaw.  
John

 his "continuous masse of land") or as a part of a continent.
I think the confusion stems from the word "continuous".  Yes, a continent
must be continuous (rivers and lakes allowed), but that doesn't mean
"surrounded by water on all sides".  The property on which my house sits,
for example, is a continuous mass of land.  That doesn't mean it's an
island.  
Yes, there are historical reasons why Europe is a continent.
(for the benefit of SCE: it has been proposed by two posters [both American]
in rec.music.classical that Europe is not a continent).
HTH,
John

 Did I say Europe is not a continent?
Then let's distinguish between a "geological" continent and a "cultural"
one.
I didn't see such a differentiation, before.


his "continuous masse of land") 
I agree totally. I would also add that we are a great democratic
continent and have even TV, washing-machine and escalators ;-))
Leonardo
http://home.datacomm.ch/lennybignami/

one of the correspondents is posting from.
the crossposting has been started as follows:
	From: 
pin...@my-deja.com
 (pineiro)
	to:
	rec.music.opera
	it.arti.musica.classica
	rec.music.classical
know everybody knows ... 
Allegri !
Claudio

 in rec.music.classical that Europe is not a continent).
....Which appears to confirm the view that educational
standards in America (meaning the U. S.) could be improved
upon!

: 

evidently. people don't seem to be able to think for themselves. define 
'continent' (as john asks) and see Europe as a landmass and as a cultural 
entity and as an economic entity. why isn't the Iberian penninsula 
considered a subcontinent (as India)? who determined "continent" and why is 
it important? are we culturalists or meteorologists? the concept seems to 
be "self-contained"? it seems the word is a portmanteau word that can be 
carried into general discussions about cuisine.
mike

 continente singolo.
Io suppongo che la differenza fra le due affermazioni sia molto sottile
e degna di un san Tommaso.
In realta' c'e' qualcuno che ha idee un po' bizzarre. Che cosa e' che
"geograficamente" determina la natura di continente? Dei confini
naturali? Quali confini? Un istmo? un braccio di mare? una catena
montuosa? O l'estensione? o di volta in volta estensione, confini,
popolazione... o che cosa?
E' evidente che la classificazione geografica rischia di essere una
forzatura, e che si dimentica che i continenti hanno un'origine storica,
non geografica.
E, mi spiace per i cugini americani, ma l'Europa e' un continente,
proprio in merito alla sua storia (come lo e' l'Asia, l'Africa, e
l'America). Anzi, l'Europa e' il *vecchio* continente per definizione.
Senza eccessivo rancore
Rudy
====================================================
If the doors of perception were cleansed every 
thing would appear  to man as it is: infinite.
William Blake
====================================================

 in rec.music.classical that Europe is not a continent).
Three newsgroups wasn't enough crossposting? You had to add a fourth?
I have explained my reasoning in nauseating detail on the original thread
(the one with "MADONNA" in the subject line). Those who are genuinely
interested in the discussion can look it up there.  Those who are only
interested in deriding the stupidity of Americans can instead find
satisfaction in the fact that I have never attended college.
mdl

EUROPE IS INCONTINENT.
Check out the Mediterranean Ocean should you need proof (Cousteau will
corroborate)
Tauser

May I suggest an immediate renaming of this thread?  This well-known pop 
singer has no place in opera, and I doubt she ever will.  To pretend 
otherwise is disingenuous, to say the least.
-- 
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- 
http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- 
http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church


which curious minds?
what's yours, other than orthodox piece of shit?
dft
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 dell'americani, sono - al fondo - monoglotto.
Amici di it.arti.musica.classica, ho l'onore di presentarvi Mark D. Lew,
tenore californiano, ed una delle colonne di rec.music.opera.
Mark, hai mai pensato di fare un giro nel newsgroup in italiano?
--------------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy        e-mail: 
ll...@dada.it
   Home page: 
http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
                   (musicologia pratica)

This well-known pop singer has no place in opera...
Or in the physical confinements of an opera house, neither as dilettante nor as 
bait for the masses.  Maybe as audience member.  But wait, it's really neither
her fault nor her marketing entourage's, but rather, the house Indentant's (sic)
and his vain pubic (sic) relations efforts.  On behalf of what?  Self-centered
or organized political, religious, sexual agendas?  Internationalism?
Post-modernist mumbo jumbo?  Pop-ularization of opera?  Wholesale liquidation of
what's left?
One question remains unanswered:  Peter Jonas' religious/sexual affiliations.
Curious minds want to know.

pin...@my-deja.com
 wrote:

close the outhouse door, gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby. your breath  smells.


 Curious minds want to know
And let's face it Boccanegra. You have a very, very curious mind indeed.
--
Steve Silverman (
steve.s...@ntlworld.com
)
Essex
England



Continental Europe includes everything from Spain to Russia, they are all
a single land mass. India at one time was not part of this continent, it
drifted north and eventually collided with Continental Europe ( rather
a long time ago !) creating a rather famous mountain range. India is usually
classified as the Indian 
Sub
 Continent. I think it is unfair to
expect the population of the USA to have a practical knowledge of European
Geography, just as it is unfair to expect we Europeans to know as much
about the USA. I have heard many moaning so-and-so's complaining that only
two percent of Americans own a passport, and consiquently 'don't get out
much'. They dont need to they have quite a big Continant over there too!

Ron.xxx  somewhere in Europe...........



 penisola del nord America o viceversa?)
È il continente americano ad essere un'isola dell'Europa; che non si
dimentichino che le loro origini sono Europee, se non era per gli europei
sarebbe ancora abitata dagli indiani (cosa, a mio parere, assai migliore, ho
sempre avuto un debole per i "nativi" d'America).
Pfui a loro
D.

 wrote in 
  message 
news:3B5478F2...@btinternet.com
...


 them, as I have found out in my travels. 
And some of them are scalpers who hang out in trailer parks.


 singer has no place in opera [...]
Unlike the discussion on this thread?
mdl

 Mark, hai mai pensato di fare un giro nel newsgroup in italiano?
Mi dispiace, no.  Leggo questa discussione ["thread"=?] solo per causa di
crossposting.
Trae vantaggio da me tentare esprimermi in italiano di quando in quando, ma
fare cosě mi costa tanto di sforzo e tempo che non lo posso in modo
frequente.
mdl

 Senza eccessivo rancore
Certo.
mdl
(colla stessa scusa di monoglotto)

 wrote in message
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...

Che cosa ha tutto questo convinto per fare con Madonna?
P

 P
Ai dont nou. Samtaims, de pats ov discasscion follou streing rods.
Gritings
Moos