Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Idioms

What about these idioms? Are them in fashion or out of fashion?
1. Sorry? I beg your pardon? I didn't quite catch that.
2. She thought I was making fun of her.
3. I really put my foot in it.
4. That has nothing to do with it.
5. You've got the wrong end of the stick.
6. We need something along these lines.
7. Well, if that's the way you feel about it.....
9. I'll take your word for it.
10. I checked in yesterday.
11. I'm checking out tomorrow.
12. We pride ourselves on our service.
13. It leaves much to be desired!
14. Who runs this hotel?
15. I need it right away.
16. I'll do it at once.
17. Mind the step.
18. I'll get it straight away.
19. Mind your head.
20. Keep out.
bye bye

 
All of these idioms are currently in use in standard English.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Einde O'Callaghan ha scritto nel messaggio ...
CUT
Thank you.
And what about these?
1. Keep it under your hat.
2. We've got to get to the bottom of this.
3. I can't figure it out.
4. I've been racking my brains.
5. I think I've hit on a solution.
6. That'll do the trick.
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Thanks a lot Einde
bye
Franco

 
All of those are in use in current English.
-- 
the Omrud
---------

 
Yes, those are all OK as well.
-- 
the Omrud
---------

the Omrud ha scritto nel messaggio ...

What's another way of saying those expressions?
Let me know please.
Thank you
bye
Franco

bye bye
Another fixed phrase, which I guess you understand OK.
Look, practically everything in English usage is a fixed or
semifixed phrase, and you just have to learn a lot of them.
Sorry, that's the price you pay for a simple morphology.
Read a lot, watch TV, and pick up the phrases.  These are
all very simple ones.
You might find something useful at
 
http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue
-John Lawler -- 
http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/
 -- UM Linguistics Dept
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Academic integrity still plagues campus" -- Headline, University of
                                              Michigan Daily 11/12/02

 wrote

All of these expressions are up to date in Britain.
(1) is too wordy, though. The shorter "Sorry, I didn't quite catch that"
would be better.
(10) and (11) have a distinctly American feel to them. However, it is an
Americanism that has now become common in Britain too. The British usually
say "I arrived yesterday" and "I shall leave tomorrow". BrE Register = AmE
check in.  BrE check out = AmE check out, but the British mean only the
paying of the bill, handing back the keys, and signing any paperwork. The
Americans mean everything to do with the departure, even as far as getting
into their car and driving away.
(14) is sometimes used, but usually in a rude and argumentative context. It
is most likely to be asked sarcastically by a dissatisfied customer who is
asserting that the hotel is badly managed and chaotic. It may also be used
sarcastically by hotel staff who are tired of being told every detail of how
to do their jobs by an unreasonable and overbearing customer.
If you genuinely want a factual answer to your question, it is better to ask
"Which Group operates this hotel?" If you want to speak to the manager, say
"Can I speak to the manager, please?"
(20) is acceptable for a notice, but abrupt and rude if spoken. Say instead
"Please don't go in there".
Richard Chambers       Leeds   UK.


I thought that "straight away" was American usage for "right away". Am I
mistaken? We do use "straight away" in Britain, but less commonly than
"right away". Are you saying that "straight away" is not used at all in
America?
Richard Chambers       Leeds   UK.

"Richard Chambers" <richard....@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote...

Hmm.  I'm British, and "straightaway" (one word) is the one I find more
commonly used.  In fact, "right away" sounds a teensy bit American to
me, as John implies.
Matti

All perfectly OK on the right side of the pond.

-- 
Dave OSOS#24 
dswindel...@tcp.co.uk
   Remove my gerbil for email replies
Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one
Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one
http://dswindell.members.beeb.net

 writes

-- 



There is also a far less savoury purported origin.


 
All quite current.
Regards, Einde

me, as John implies.
In the US, using "straight away" is marked as British.
Everybody understands it, mind you; we're familiar with 
many British usages.  But we tend not to use it.
-John Lawler   
www.umich.edu/~jlawler
   Univ of Michigan Linguistics Dept
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "I conceive that words are like money, not the worse for being common,
   but that it is the stamp of custom alone that gives them circulation
   or value."         --  William Hazlitt 'On Familiar Style' (1821)

 me, as John implies.
He didn't say anything about you. 
-- 
Simon R. Hughes


What's the right said of the pond?:) UK Or US?:)
Let me know
bye Dave
Franco

Richard Chambers ha scritto nel messaggio ...
CUT
Thanks a lot Richard
Bye
Franco

John Lawler ha scritto nel messaggio ...
CUT
Thank you John
bye
Franco

 
The right side of the pond is the one on right when you look at a map. 
The other side is known as the left side - not the wrong side. ;-)
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan


There is only one *right* side, and that's ours, the right one, except
when you're driving on roads, when the right side is the left side and
the right one is the wrong one, but even our fellow Europeans have been
lured away to the wrong side.  What a wonder it is to be the only ones
in step ;-)


Per la cronaca, ho inviato il seguente messaggio sui NG inglesi ai
quali era crosspostato il messaggio originale
==================================
Alert! Crosspost on both English and Italian groups (was: Idioms) 
Hi everybody!
Please note that the original poster ("Dio") did quite a weird 
crosspost on both English and Italian newsgroups (*)
As the "Idioms" thread seems to be an English speaking one, I would 
advise everyone to follow Einde's wise suggestion and follow-up to  
uk.culture.language.english , or to the sole English newsgroups at 
least, when replying to that message.
Thank you and sorry for my OT post! 
* = it.cultura.linguistica.inglese is an Italian NG where the English 
language and culture are discussed, and there are posts in both 
Italian and English.
-- 
Enrico C


Yes, you have that "sweet violets" meaning in UK, also.
I think Lawler was being tactful, just in case someone prints his reply out
for students, etc.


That's very funny:)

detective story.
What's another way of saying that? I mean an in fashion way:)
Bye Jerry
Franco

In the UK, it might be obsolescent, but it's certainly not yet obsolete.
What do you mean exactly?
Do you still use it?
Let me know
bye John
Franco



It would be "What do you mean, exactly?"  It's a request for
additional information or clarification about the meaning of what has
been said or written.
Yes, we still use it.  Commonly, by some.
 

Do you still use it?
Yes.
-- 
John Hall
                "Think wrongly if you please,
                 but in all cases think for yourself."
                                                      Doris Lessing

putting together the meanings of the individual words.
CUT
I think that an idiom is a form of expression peculiar to a  language, which
cannot be translated word for word into another language.
Many idiomatic expression are so strange that you couldn't possibily
understand their meaning by looking at the individual words which make them
up. Others, though readily understood, sound rather queer in your own
language.
You feel that you yourself would never dream of putting together in such odd
ways. Take the espression "It's raining cats and dogs". If you took this
literally, you would expect to see cats and dogs falling from  the sky -
which would obviously be nonsensical - but the actual idiomatic meaning of
the expression is : "It's raining very hard; it's pouring."
Take something very elementary. Is "good morning" and idiom?
The Italian says yes, of course it is,  because in his own language he says
"Buongiorno" - Good day- not "Buon mattino ." The German, on the other hand,
who says "Guten Morgen, " finds nothing idiomatic whatever in "Good morning.
"
The Italian, who says in his lnaguage "Prendersi cura di qualcuno, " will
claim that "to take care of somebody is not necessarily idiomatic. But a
Russian, who has no such expression in his language, will say at once that
it is completely illogical, and hence extremely idiomatic.
Why take care? he will ask. What in fact you do is "give care". You give
your care to a person - you don't take it from him.
So it is certainly difficult for different nationalities to agree on whether
a given expression is idiomatic or not.
Bye bye John
Franco

 saying "to discover the hot water".
I think I've also heard "to discover liquid water", which gives the idea
even better.
Bye-bye, FB

 What's another way of saying that? I mean an in fashion way:)
"We've got to figure out what's going on here."
-- 
Jerry Friedman

 "
I have a Macedonian friend who often says "Dobro popladne" as a joke - 
"Good afternoon" is simply not said in the language. In fact, come to 
think of it, "Good afternoon" is pretty rare in most languages (that I 
know) and is becoming fairly old-fashioned in English.
-- 
Rob Bannister


Not in UK English.  Saying "Good morning" after 12 noon is a nice
trigger for a friendly smile over here.


 bacini bacini..
Will you please stop feeding (and quoting) this troll?
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 know) and is becoming fairly old-fashioned in English.
I would not have thought "Good afternoon" was any more old-fashoined
in English than "Good morning" or "Good evening", as each would be used
in the same polite or formal context depending on the time of day.
Unlike in French or German, "Good day" *is* old-fashioned, and in fact
I have heard it used more often as an archaic way of saying goodbye than
hello. Sometimes to cut short an undesired conversation.
Cheers,
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: 
to...@softins.co.uk
 - 
http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: 
to...@mountifield.org
 - 
http://tony.mountifield.org

roll...@hotmail.com
 ha scritto nel messaggio
CUT
FB ti ha risposto bene per quanto riguarda l'inglese(almeno per quanto ne
sono io). Per le altre lingue non saprei, dovrei ricercare.
Piuttosto vorrei far notare che io scrivo su questo ng(dando contributi!) da
UN MESE esatto.
Come noti ora rimproverano tutti quelli che mi citano Te compreso.
Se qualcuno di voi non mi difende con una forte autorevolezza e con
argomenti seri, io lascio sto ng.
Tanto per intenderci, I'm sick and tired of the whole business.
Se lo puoi fare tu te ne sarei grato.
Ciao
Franco



Carissimo Franco, nessuno qua vuole espellere qualcuno che rispetta le
regole.
La prima regola, prima ancora del manifesto, e' la netiquette.
Ti invito a rileggere la prima mail che hai mandato. Una mail scritta
tutta in maiuscolo, in cui con toni a dir poco accesi lamentavi una
qualche sudditanza dell'italiano rispetto all'inglese.
Poi, sempre con toni accesi ti sei lamentato di come il newsgroup
funzionava. Poi ti sei incazzato con i madrelingua che frequentano il
newsgroup. Poi hai cominciato a crosspostare.
Tutto nasce da questa ''piccole'' violazioni della netiquette.
Quando in una precedente mail ti dissi che ti sarebbe passata, intendevo
che:
1. avresti smesso di postare visto che nessuno ti avrebbe piu' cagato
2. avresti cambiato registro.
Non c'e' bisogno di difenderti. E' sufficiente che continui a postare in
maniera educata e pertinente (cosa che, riconosco, spesso fai) ed il gioco
e' fatto. Tra un po' nessuno si ricordera' nemmeno piu' del crosspostatore
folle.
Buona giornata
-- 
Se hai un problema che deve essere risolto da una burocrazia,ti conviene
cambiare problema. 
                                                           Legge di Good

Poi hai cominciato a crosspostare.
Non è vietato, la netiquette ne consiglia solo un uso edeguato. E credo che
nel nostro caso non solo sia fondamentale per avere un parere da medrelingua
ma anche per seguire i loro dialoghi e poterli quindi analizzare.
Cosa che è stata da me fatta con Narly native e la stessa Mary Cassidy è
intervenuta.
Ho postato un articolo scientifico uno filosofico religioso e due su idioms
e slang.
Tutti interessanti che hanno visto la partecipazione dei frequentatori dei
ng speculare a questo.
Sono crosspost motivati e non fatti at random.
Mi si può spiegare il motivo per non farli, il perchè e il per come. Ma è
più facile dire "sei un troll" che motivare il proprio dissenso!
In conclusione non ho chiesto a rollerbd@ di difendermi.
Molto più semplicemente(forse sta cosa ti stupirà) mi sono posto due
problemi
1. Il mio nick è fonte di dialoghi off topic: per me il nick non importa e
quindi lo cambio.
E l'ho cambiato!
2. Se molti vogliono mettermi nel kill file, sono liberi di farlo: anche io
non leggo tutti.
3. Hanno comiciato a rimproverare chi mi quota e mi risponde.
A questo punto(non ci crederai) per non creare altro caos, ho semplicemete
chiesto o una difesa(del fatto che si è liberi di rispondere come di
mettermi nel kill file) nel qual caso, posso anche non scrivere più su
questo ng.
Cioè in pratica ho chiesto a rollerbd di far rispettare il SUO atteggiamento
nei mie confronti.
Io non posso peroare la mia causa e allo stesso tempo anche quella di chi mi
cita e mi risponde normalmente.
La mia l'ho perorata fin troppo.
Ma chi mi risponde, deve a quanto pare dare conto ad altri che dicono: non
citare questo troll etc etc.
Come vedi la intelleranza in definitiva non è la mia ma di altri.
Ma sono abituato. I ng sono tutti fatti così. E' per questo che molti
vengono moderati.
E' cmq molto strano che dopo VENTI giorni di post (leggili per favore)
ritenuti "educati" appena mi sono permesso di dire qualcosa a Mary Cassidy è
scattata la levata di scudi.
E proprio per questo io sono diventato un "troll".
E lo rimarrò perchè tra me e la madrelingua non c'è "gara". Lei "serve" io
posso anche scomparire!!
Scusami se ho chiarito in modo anche tedioso, ma è giusto per dirti il mio
modesto punto di vista.
Saluti
Franco


"Good afternoon" wouldn't be considered old-fashioned in NZ. It is used
frequently (along with "good morning") in business telephoning, as well as
in general conversation.
--
Peg

\begin{opinionepersonalissima}
Io non sono solito mettere nessuno nel kill file, anzi non ho un kill
file. Se un thread non mi interessa lo filtro, se una mail non mi
interessa la cancello. Mettendo dei filtri si rischia sempre di perdersi
qualcosa di interessante.
Quindi per quel che mi riguarda continua a scrivere finch'e' ti pare, se
la cosa mi interessa, seguo, se no, no. E non sono certo le parole di
chicchessia chi mi afnno desistere dal risponderti: se mi va lo faccio <=>
se non lo faccio e' perche' non mi va. Credo sia il modo migliore di
comportarsi, dopo un po' anche i piu' scorbutici o si adeguano o si
ritrovano a parlare a se stessi e dopo un po' si stufano.
Ripeto per quel che mi riguarda scrivi pure
\end{opinionepersonalissima}
Per quel che riguarda i crosspost la netiquette io l'ho sempre
interpretata cosi':
1. Crosspostare e' in linea di principio sbagliato. Se uno vuole sentire
il parere di altri puo chiederlo da solo, nessuno vieta di seguire piu'
newsgroup. Se voglio il parere di un nutrito gruppo di madrelingua
sull'uso degli idiomi sono in grado di farlo da solo. Crosspostare
significa anche aumentare il traffico di un newsgroup e chi ha solo un
modem potrebbe non gradire di veder balzare i messaggi da 30 a 300 al
giorno. immagina che tutti crosspostino liberamente (anche se a tema):
saremmo inondati di mail.
2. In certi casi si puo' pero' usare. Quali
siano questi casi dipende dalle consuetudini del newsgroup. Nel tuo caso
io avrei fatto cosi':
- lancio l'argomento
- chiedo se posso crosspostare sui newsgroup tal dei tali per avere
delucidazioni da + madrelingua.
- ascolto le risposte
- agisco di conseguenza usando il buon senso e sperando di non essere
linciato.
\begin{consiglio}
Se questo newsgroup ti piace, evita certi toni (qualunque sia il motivo
per cui vi sei ricorso), rimani a tema ed io leggero' volentieri i tuoi
post. Gli altri nin zo, ma presumo che dopo un po' nessuno pensera' piu'
te come a un troll..lallero trollala'.
\end{consiglio}


Giacomo Bosio ha scritto nel messaggio ...
CUT
Solo per dirti che mi hai confuso con ZEFFIRO 2002:)
Sui crosspost hai detto cose sagge. Ed infatti io non ho intenzione di farli
in continuazione, tra le altre cose avevo anche chiesto il parere di altri,
ma nessuno mi rispondeva(quando non ero troll:).
Io ho provato, vediamo come va, se è il caso di farli o meno.
Per es. quelli di uk. culture etc saranno contenti visto che è un ng
spopolato. Quelli di alt.usage invece un poco meno ma si sono dimostrati
molto interessati.
La mia speranza è che tra loro si trovi qualche anglofono che stia studiando
l'italiano e quindi possa seguire questo ng direttamente.
Ciao
Franco

 post. Gli altri nin zo, 
snip
Ma certo :)
-- 
Enrico C
"It's really fab!"
fab: fabulous (c) Dave's ESL Cafe Slang

 
Yeah, you get overprecise people doing that over here too, but few of us 
say "Good afternoon" anymore: it's "G'day". I wasn't saying that "Good 
afternoon" was dead, but I think it's only used by certain people; ie I 
know "Good day" is rarely used in Britain, but I can't imagine an East 
Ender saying "Good afternoon" either.
Talking about East Enders: on another thread, there was mention of the 
Queen's "orf" pronunciation of "off". It seems to me, that although the 
vowels are not identical, "orf" is  alive and well in the East End of 
London, as is "yer" for "year" (another Queenism).
-- 
Rob Bannister

Anna
Ciao
Rotb

> Ma certo :)
Sucker... ;)
http://www.manythings.org/slang/slang18.html


No, they would simply say 'ar'ernoon with glottal stops on the '


 
http://www.manythings.org/slang/slang18.html
"credulone"?
-- 
Enrico C
"You kids will be in the doghouse with your mother after that mess you
made in her garden!"
in the doghouse: in great disfavor or trouble, facing punishment

 "credulone"?
Sì, credulone nel senso di credulità. There's a sucker born every minute.
http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbarnum.html
Può anche significare una persona o qualcosa in generale. Penso che sia come
si usa 'coso'. Ricerca "that sucker" a Google.

 London, as is "yer" for "year" (another Queenism).
Only amongst people of a certain age. I couldn't imagine a young East
Ender saing "orf".
Matthew Huntbach 

 and is becoming fairly old-fashioned in English.
It seems pretty standard here in California.  In fact, if someone says
"Good morning", and realizes that it is, in fact, just after noon,
they will often correct themselves to "Good afternoon".
-- 
Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
    HP Laboratories                    |Of course, over the first 10^-10
    1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |seconds and 10^-30 cubic
    Palo Alto, CA  94304               |centimeters it averages out to
                                       |zero, but when you look in
 
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
             |detail....
 
(650)857-7572
                      |            Philip Morrison
 
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

 
Shouldn't there be a "guv" or "squire" there?
-- 
Rob Bannister

 linciato.
There might well be exceptions to the "no crossposting,  we don't want
to be flooded!" rule, but I think it's always a good thing to set a
"folllow/up to" in such cases. 
I mean: you post your bloody X-post question to two or three groups
(if you really have to! do you?) but please ask everybody that answers
be posted on one newsgroup only (the most appropriate one, of course). 
Even so, there is a little problem: on Usenet, not everybody honours
FOLLOW-UP-TOs  :(
 
Then, if I  need to ask native speakers, on English groups such as
a.u.e or u.c.l.e. or whatever,  I can do that  just by posting a
question there. 
And, if it can be useful, I report here the advice I got.
All in all, I can't see any good reason for crossposting on both
Italian and English groups, really... 
Just my 2 Castel del Monte ;)
-- 
Enrico C
"She might be small, but she's got a lot of spunk"
spunk: spirit (c) Dave's ESL Cafe Slang

 "winded", I mean they often change
Rats! 
That should read "wound", of course :(
I just need a good sleep!
-- 
Enrico C
"Let's party tonight!"
party: celebrate (c) Dave's ESL Cafe Slang

 No, they would simply say 'ar'ernoon with glottal stops on the '
That is if they didn't say "wotcher", which I'd consider much more
likely.  Mind you, nowadays they'd be just as likely to say something
like "hi" or "yo".
-- 
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site 
www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island.  So is Man.


My late grandmother (born in the 19th century) used to say "orf".  She
was a South Londoner rather than an East.  In her day there were a
number of similarities between the demotic speech of London and the
hyperlect of the aristocratic classes.  "Huntin', shootin'; and fishin'"
is another classic example.  Now most of those things (including "orf")
have disappeared from demotic London speech, and the aristocratic
hyperlect is much rarer.  The Queen's version of it has become much
weaker than it use to be.  Prince Philip still exhibits a good example
of it, and Price Charles a lesser one, but still stronger than his
mother's.
"Yer" for "year", however, is very common in London (and possibly
elsewhere but I pass on that), but does to some extent depend on the
stress pattern of the sentence in which it appears.  I, for example,
would probably say "in two yeers, time" but "a couple of yers ago".


 they will often correct themselves to "Good afternoon".
Yeagh!  A nasty usage (far too prevalent on both sides of the Atlantic).
Just because it is after noon, that does not prevent it from being
morning.  There are two quite separate ways of dividing the day.  On the
one hand there's the distinction between the forenoon and the afternoon
(which is self-explanatory).  "Forenoon" is now pretty well obsolete
except in the maritime phrase "the forenoon watch", which itself is
decidedly antiquated.
On the other hand there's the division into "morning" and "evening" as
in "And the morning and the evening was the first day" in the Authorised
version (for leftpondians, that's the King James Version) of the Bible.
Here the division between the two was the main meal of the day, whose
customary timing has varied a lot with place and century.  Once the main
meal, "dinner", had migrated to relatively late in the day, a secondary
meal "lunch" or "luncheon" was introduced earlier in the day.  Somebody
(I think it was a character in one of Thomas Love Peacock's novels) in
the early nineteenth century said something like "I like to take
luncheon at around noon, thus giving two long divisions of the morning",
which is evidence of how the word "morning" was used at that time  -
clearly it included the period between luncheon and dinner.



I'm not disputing your historical account of "morning", which differs from
today's common assumptions and usage. Your post is very interesting.
However, the Authorized Version, in the account of the genesis creation,
speaks of "the evening and the morning" being the first day, second day,
etc - not "the morning and the evening".
This is in tune with the Hebrew cultural perception of the day commencing in
the evening (about which time exactly there can be great dispute but it is
around sunset). Thus Jewish people and other "seventh dayers" commence their
seventh day observation on Friday evening at around sunset.
The evening of the Bible, therefore, has little to do with traditional
English customs of meals and divisions of day.
--
Peg

 English customs of meals and divisions of day.
But it came to us through translators who would, of course, have thought
in the terms common in the England of their day.  But my point was that,
however defined, the morning and the evening made up a complete day,
with no gap between them.


Mike Stevens wrote:

In the days when I could still read Russian without too much trouble, I 
seem to remember being puzzled at finding 'zavtrak' (breakfast) being 
taken about noon, with 'obyed' (dinner) being served about midnight. 
Those old aristocrats lived a different life - almost like a student.
-- 
Rob Bannister