Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: club

is anyone able to explain me why
italians say /cleb/  instead of /clab/?
dd 

italians say /cleb/  instead of /clab/?
Not all italians, just the berlusconian moiety :)
 --
 “il vero amore / è negli occhi dei cani vagabondi”
Federico Fiumani (Diaframma)

 Not all italians, just the berlusconian moiety :)
ah, r u implying the dalemians say it right?
so now i know who is who :)
dd
.> "il vero amore / è negli occhi dei cani vagabondi"
A dog has the soul of a philosopher.--Plato 

 
 From Rome south, "Goethe" is "Ghède", alas, so "club", which is [kloeb] 
in French and which is and certainly used to be pronounced that way by 
many people, is "clèb".
FB

 pronounced that way by many people, is "clèb".
moldo gonvingende grazzie :)
('zcuze my soudhern udderange)
dd 

many people, is "clèb".
In fact, it is exactly in Padania that they say [kloeb]... But that's
not English. In southern Italy we say [glubbe] :)
 --
 “il vero amore / è negli occhi dei cani vagabondi”
Federico Fiumani (Diaframma)

moldo gonvingende grazzie :)
assodato che è in Lombardia che dicono kloeb, mo' ha trovato il modo
di dare la colpa a noialtri... :)


 In fact, it is exactly in Padania that they say [kloeb]...
And it's perfectly correct (though you won't find any young men who say 
it like that). That's not the problem.
[...]
FB


Yes, I think FB is right (as always).
This is what Porcelli, Hotimsky, A Handbook of English Pronunciation, says:
QUOTE:
Some English words were introduced into Italy when the prestige foreign 
language was French and this explains some outcomes that would not be 
justifiable otherwise. "Club" /kl^b/ and "bluff" /bl^f/ were pronounced 
/kloeb/ and /bloef/ where /oe/ is French sound nearest to the English vowel, 
or at least it was perceived as such. In the Italian regions of the Centre 
and South, where /oe/ is not present in the dialectal phonological system, 
it was represented by /E/ [as in "bello"] and many people, especially the 
elderly, still pronounce /klEb/ intead of /klab/. For everybody, /blef'fare/ 
is the normal pronunciation of the verb that translates "to bluff"(*).
Note (*) According to the Devoto-Oli dictionary, "bleffare" is a less common 
variant of "bluffare", and it is described as a spelling "that follows the 
English pronunciation" (!); under "club" the pronunciations "clèb" and 
"clab" are given
END QUOTE
Lorenzo 

 /klab/.
Uhm... io non penso di essere vecchio, abito al nord e pronuncio "club" con 
la "e" aperta, come per altro fanno tutti quelli che conosco. Sono davvero 
un'eccezione?
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"People say sometimes that Beauty is only superficial. That may be so. But 
at least it is not as superficial as Thought is. To me, Beauty is the wonder 
of wonders. It is only shallow people who do now judge by appearances. The 
true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible." (Oscar Wilde, 
The Picture of Dorian Gray) 

 END QUOTE
definitely clear
dicaduca 

 wrote in message 
news:0h86g.107683$PR2.1...@twister2.libero.it...
 Sono davvero  un'eccezione?
the exception is who pronounces /kl^b/
(as rightly lorents remarks)
an italian sport news can be a valid reference
dd 

 an italian sport news can be a valid reference
"news" non vuole l'articolo indeterminativo.
;-)


 ;-)
had i said  ' an italian sport news program', would you have let me pass?
dd 

And it's perfectly correct
eeeeeeeeeeeeeh? In Australia?
Ho sentito varie volte questa pronuncia padana, e non mi pare proprio
corrisponda a quella che puoi ascoltare su 
www.m-w.com
, uguale a
quella di shut.


or at least it was perceived as such.
AAAh, così è accettabile.
Allora direste anche such = soech?


the exception is who pronounces /kl^b/
everyone in my entourage  does so.


Io che sono del nord e dico "clèb"dove mi devo classificare?
Io che sono del sud e, come tutti i miei amici, dico cl^b?


 quella di shut.
"Club" si soleva pronunciare alla francese. Abbiam sempre detto anche 
"robó". È "clèb" che è scorretto.
Ciao, FB

 È "clèb" che è scorretto.
Invece cloeb no? Ma bah.


 Io che sono del sud e, come tutti i miei amici, dico cl^b?
E il centro?
Magari là dicono /club/.
:-)))))))
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"People say sometimes that Beauty is only superficial. That may be so. But 
at least it is not as superficial as Thought is. To me, Beauty is the wonder 
of wonders. It is only shallow people who do not judge by appearances. The 



no, non direi proprio... credo che anche io pronuncerei clèb, se non fosse 
per l'influenza dell'inglese...


really? I am quite surprized, as most Italians don't know (or "don't feel") 
the sound /^/ 


There are certain words which, when spoken by my Italian friends, no
matter where they were from, always made me wince. Club was one of
them.
Joe from Massachusetts


bisognerebbe chiedere ai francesi visto che sono loro gli interessati...
A me pare abbastanza vicino, per lo meno quanto un "sacc" o un "socc"... 

 wrote in message
news:VCs6g.81$4I.20@dukeread10...

Is a "Night" the same as a "Club", and the same as a "Night Club", in
Italian?
Joe from Massachusetts

Is a "Night" the same as a "Club", and the same as a "Night Club",
Yes, but we say "il" night (il locale notturno), and "la" notte :)


the sound /^/ 
Well, sincerely we say "clab" :) , the sound we feel to be the most
similar  to the right one.
I just mean that we don't say "cloeb" nor "cleb".


A me pare abbastanza vicino, per lo meno quanto un "sacc" o un "socc"..
Allora forse non ho presente come si dice soech in francese. I padani
perň pronunciano cloeub in un modo orribile.
 --
 “il vero amore / č negli occhi dei cani vagabondi”
Federico Fiumani (Diaframma)


ok, that's better :-)


in realta' ormai penso siano in pochi a pronunciare con /oe/.
La maggior parte delle persone giovani non parlano dialetto (perlomeno a 
Milano) e non sono familiari con quel suono.
E poi chi lo dice che e' orribile? A me piace :-P 


Well, then, that's three ways of saying the same thing that always
made me wince when my Italian friends spoke them.
Joe from Massachusetts

 ;-)
well, i submitted the question to sci.lang and things  don't seem so neat 
as you put them
here are some excerpts from discussion i started with the subject 'a news'
at first your remark seems right  because...
 'news' belongs to a class of words describing
 things which are measured (and then described with a partitive
 construction) as opposed to counted. The indefinite article 'an' is still
 associated with the numeral 'one', and so is only used with countable
 items.
(Neeraj Mathur)
but here comes Dylang Sung with the following examples:
A sand so white... (see Procul Harem : A Salty Dog)
I have never tasted a water so good.
(Dylan Sung)
...and
In a suitable context, I am quite happy with "a water".  Maybe it is
American in origin but it does not feel foreign to me.  Try other
drinks:
A: What would you like to drink?
B: A water / beer / wine / milk / coke . . .
Many uncountable nouns can be treated as countable if the context
suggests an obvious measure
(Séan O'Leathlòbhair)
... and -to cut short-
Are you claiming that in your idiolect, you are unable to individuate a
member of a group usually designated with a mass noun?
"Rye bread is baked with a mixture of flours: a wheat flour, a rye
flour, ..."
(Peter Daniels)
and -at last but i could continue-
the fact that (some) mass nouns have specialized uses in which they
are converted to count nouns with a somewhat different meaning has
been much discussed in the semantics literature.  the two cases above
illustrate one of the patterns of conversion, in which a mass noun
denoting a substance is converted to a count noun denoting a variety
or type of that substance.  in another pattern, a mass noun denoting a
substance is converted to a count noun denoting a serving of that
substance ("I'd like a beer, please").
some mass nouns pretty staunchly resist these conversions, and "mail"
and "news" are two of them.
Arnold Zwicky
dd

 had i said  ' an italian sport news program', would you have let me pass?
Yes, I believe I would.
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"People say sometimes that Beauty is only superficial. That may be so. But 
at least it is not as superficial as Thought is. To me, Beauty is the wonder 
of wonders. It is only shallow people who do not judge by appearances. The 


 I have never tasted a water so good.
Uei, che ti devo dire, io so che news è uncountable. Poi se ci vuoi mettere 
l'articolo indeterminativo, fallo a tuo rischio e pericolo!
;-))
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"People say sometimes that Beauty is only superficial. That may be so. But 
at least it is not as superficial as Thought is. To me, Beauty is the wonder 
of wonders. It is only shallow people who do not judge by appearances. The 



The only time "a news" would be acceptable:
"We have the (New York) "Times", the (Daily) "News", and the (New
York) "Sun". Which one do you want?"
"I'll take a "News".
Joe from Massachusetts


Wouldn't the reason for that be simply sycophancy ?
Or maybe you didn't really mean 'entourage' ?
Mike
(Who hopes he isn't committing lèse-majesté) 

 wrote in message
news:4c4l6lF...@individual.net...

I would have thought that the good Father would be more likely
accompanied by a "claque" than by an entourage.   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

accompanied by a "claque"
Just Apostles.



Your handwriting is terrible. Does that say "Just Apostles" or "Just a
posse"?
Joe from Massachusetts