Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Dire bella invece di ciao

Who can expound on the scope, breadth, and meaning of this phenomenon?

 Who can expound on the scope, breadth, and meaning of this phenomenon?
FWIW, my theory is that it originated in Rome as a short form for 
"bella prova", a kind of street slang.
-- 
Tchau, -João do Sabão

 Who can expound on the scope, breadth, and meaning of this phenomenon?
You mean something like "Oh bella zio"?
To the best of my understanding this teenage slang become popular (in Milan, 
I don't know about other cities) in the 90s among truzzi/zarri, the Italian 
equivalents of British chavs. It may have been popular before that time but 
then being a child I wastoo young to know it. It may have been imported into 
Milan from the south, alongside with other slang words (I think "babbo" used 
for "stupid person" was a Sicilian use originally). I strongly recommend you 
not to use it, and if if happen to hear it uttered by people around you try 
to get away as quicky as possible.
Lorenzo 

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I have heard 'babbo' used in the mezzogiorno to mean 'father'. I don't know 
if 'oh bella zio' is relevant to the phenomenon that I'm asking about, 
because I only have a distant awareness of the slang. I thought it might 
have derived from 'ciao bella' but it seems to be independent of gender. 

 prova", a kind of street slang.
If it originated there, how far has it spread and who uses it? 

 independent of gender.
(BTW "zio" means "friend" in this case)
I don't know the origin, maybe from something like
"bella lě" meaning (more or less) "all right"
It could be worth asking on ICLI, however.
Lorenzo 

 and possibly in the south (I don't know)
No, I think in the south is almost never used that way, whilst I often have 
heard it used the 'Sicilian' way. 

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I've heard it in Puglia, and in Le Marche, which isn't really the south.

 If it originated there, how far has it spread and who uses it? 
I've never heard it here in the North-East, and I've asked my teenage 
neighbours as well.
It sounds like a distortion of "Ehilà" or "Hello".
In any case, we can live happily ever after without that.
Tabhall

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Oh, and also in Basilicata. But by a Materana educated in Sienna. I should 
have clarified that I didn't notice the use to be widespread, just that I 
noticed some instances of its use. In Le Marche it seemed widespread, but I 
also heard 'salve' often there, which I thought was a decidedly southern 
greeting.
Oh, I just realized something. There exists the possibility that I thought 
someone was talking about their father when they were actually talking about 
an idiot.

 > I have heard 'babbo' used in the mezzogiorno to mean 'father'.
In the Mezzogiorno!? "Babbo" is not a dialectal word, and it means
that in *every* part of Italy, particulary in Tuscany.
It is not commonly used in Sicily because it is sounds too much like
the Sicilian for "idiot", that is "babbu" (sometimes Italianized as
"babbo", although it is actually cognate to Italian "babbeo").
However, Italian "babbo" and Sicilian "babbu" have completely
different etymologies.
"Babbo" comes from "pa-pa", which is a very ancient baby-talk
alteration for "pater" ('father'); the same root also gave Greek
"papas" (whence "Papa", "Pope"), Hindi "baba", Italian "papà", English
"poppa", etc.
"Babbu" comes from the onomatopoeic root "ba(r)-ba(r)" ('to stammer')
which also gave Greek "barbaros" (whence "barbarian" and Arabic
"Berber"), and probably Italian "balbettare", "babbuino", "bambino",
"babbeo", "babbano", "babbione" and "bamba" (last four meaning
'idiot'), as well as English "baby" and "babble".
--
Cingar

 
I heard this for the first time when I moved back to Italy in 2002, but I
noticed that the habit is being picked up by native speakers of souther italy.
My understanding is that just like ona says "buono/buona/buon giorno/sera/notte"
you can simply replace buona with bella, and omit one word. Such sloppiness can
be observed in several aspects of the roman dialect as well as the behavior of
the natives in their own daily life....
Luca

 "babbo", although it is actually cognate to Italian "babbeo").
Thanks for your comprehensive explanation. I wonder though, if it is only in
the Sicilian dialect, why a mother who spoke the dialect of a village in
Campania and emmigrated to the USA at the turn of the 20th century, forbade
her daughter from naming her child 'Robert' because the diminutive 'Bob'
sounded too much like the word for 'stupid'.

 Who can expound on the scope, breadth, and meaning of this phenomenon?
Qua in Romagna non lo dice nessuno. Piuttosto l'ho sentito usare, le prime 
volte non senza un po' di stupore, da italiani provenienti da altre zone 
della penisola.
[mr x] Bella lì!
[io] (thinking: e mo' che glie dico?)
:-)
I'd also like to point out that "mo' che + verbo" isn't at all common down 
here, though I've taken to saying it for some time now.
Tschau,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"I'm not a gay pirate, I have sex with my parrot all the time! OK, that came 
out wrong." 

Tony the Ice Man wrote:
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As I told you before, "babbo" (which means "dad" in the south of italy too, of 
course) in Campania is used just like Sicilians do (but pronounced like "babb"). 

 [io] (thinking: e mo' che glie dico?)
Alla fine degli anni '90 "bella lě" era usatissimo su Radio Deejay da Albertino. 
Non saprei perň dire quale fosse l'origine o la diffusione geografica del suo 
uso, anche se mi č sempre sembrato un po' forzato come saluto. Al massimo io 
adopero spesso, soprattutto con amiche, "ciao bella" al momento del commiato, 
scandendolo perň con un aperto sorriso (altrimenti diventa una tamarrata :-). 

 'idiot'), as well as English "baby" and "babble".
bye
Gennaro 

 you mention below (rather common), "babbasone", etc. etc.
"Babbio"... mmm never heard of it. So have you never encountered the expression 
"'o babb dint 'e purtuall"? (Shame on me for reporting this!) 

 (Shame on me for reporting this!)
Not at all, but I'll ask around... ;-) 

 diventa una tamarrata :-).
Eh, ma tu sei un vecchio marpione.
;-)
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 Eh, ma tu sei un vecchio marpione.
Marpione non saprei, ma purtroppo vecchio lo sto diventando sul serio :-(

Tony the Ice Man wrote:
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Sicilian is the only southern dialect I know a bit (my wife is from
there), but I cannot exclude that exactly the same word exists
elsewhere.
In fact, words having the same origin and similar sound and meaning
exist in many other Italian dialects, including standard Italian
itself ("babbeo", "babbio", etc.) and Milanese ("bamba").
BTW, I wonder wether "Bob" or "Bobby" might sound funny or mildly
offensive to English speakers too. I never met a Robert who was happy
of being called Bob(by).
I recall that cops are called "bobbies" in the UK... I know the story
about a certain Sir Robert What's-His-Name being one of the first
directors of Scotland Yard, but that sounds a bit weak an explanation
to me.
(BTW, "a bit weak an explanation"... Is that correct?)
--
Cingar

 (BTW, "a bit weak an explanation"... Is that correct?)
You can say it but the preposition is implied.
'that sounds a bit weak as an explanation to me.'
There are many variations to how this may be said. If you're really 
interested I'll list a few or others can contribute and we'll make this a 
very long thread [Re: a bit weak an explanation (was Etymologies (was Dire 
bella invece di ciao))]. 

 it really stands for battery operated boyfriend.
Do you think girls actually can have this kind of conversation,
a part from Cameron Diaz in There's something about Mary?

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Are you trying to make me admit that I've actually been witness to some such
conversations? I'll plead OT. But before I do that, answer me this: Are
girls from the country that gave us Il Decameron so different than American
girls?
A proposito, c'è proprio una parola 'apart'.

 girls?
Actually, my admittedly limited experience suggests that they are. But 
in the case in object, it is the men i.t.c.t.g.u. Il Decameron to find 
unsettling the very thought that women might have a conversation like 
that.


It's ok in the UK (though maybe not so common amongst younger people) . I've 
friends happy to be called Bob , and Bobby Robson is a much-loved English 
football manager .
Mike 

 In Friuli nessuno usa "babbo", solo padre o papà.
Nemmeno qui a Milano. Però tutti la capiscono se qualcuno da un'altra
regione la usa, e così è senz'altro anche in Friuli.
--
Cingar

 regione la usa, e così è senz'altro anche in Friuli.
A Forlì direi metà e metà.
Tschau,
Enrico il Pentolaio, terrone.
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 to me.
OT
It was Robert Peel and he was an important Prime Minister in the the
mid-19th century. He founded the Police Force in London and the term
Bobby is actually an affectionate one, not an offensive one. Another
important head of state whose name was shortened and passed on to
posterity was Theodore Roosevelt, president of the USA . His name
survives in the word teddy-bear.
Ciao
Claudia

 wrote in message
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Not to mention Bobby Charlton! :-)
And what about Bob Kennedy in the USA?
Ciao
Claudia

 taken as a disclaimer.

 "Dick" can be laughable.
You don't know Dick!
This is the title of a segment on The Daily Show (a clever fake news
program) that presents little known facts of Vice President Dick Cheney's
paranoia manifestation. For example, Google Earth only presents a low
resolution pixelated image of the area surrounding his residence, he
invented a "treat as secret" classification to stamp on talking-point papers
created soley for being repeated to the media, and he keeps a man-size safe
in his office.

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A perfect example of a Dick to be laughed at (and, unfortunately feared.)
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