Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: He & who...

Non ho mai visto usare la parola who messa a fianco a he. Cosa
significa? Forse "he who" vuol dire "colui"????
Ah...la frase in analizi l'ho trovata scritta all'inizio di questo
video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOsIlLC3s_o
Cliccate sul link e vederete che la frase apparirà dopo pochi
secondi!!!
Ciao ciao :-)

 significa? Forse "he who" vuol dire "colui"????
"Colui il quale", I think.
Kiuhnm


yes. For instance "He who dares, wins" 

 yes. For instance "He who dares, wins"
"He-who-must-not-be-named" (il mio più acerrimo nemico).
Tschau,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
Facci sognare. 

 *più acerrimo* nemico
EEEEK!
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 EEEEK!
Sissignore. Eccomi qua, - disse il Chiàrchiaro, accostando la seggiola. 
- Non solo le farò vedere che lei non capisce niente; ma anche che lei è 
un mio mortale nemico. Lei, lei, sissignore. Lei che crede di fare il 
mio bene. Il mio più acerrimo nemico! Sa o non sa che i due imputati 
hanno chiesto il patrocinio dell'avvocato Manin Baracca?
Kiuhnm

 hanno chiesto il patrocinio dell'avvocato Manin Baracca?
Be', m'inchino a Pirandello (anche se, a mio parere, il bello scrivere non
è il suo punto forte), e vedo anche che lo stridente (al mio ipersensibile
orecchio) superlativo del superlativo è tra i _più usatissimi_... :>
Ma mi è dato, quando lo leggo o lo sento, di fare EEEEK! ?
Oooh!
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 EEEEK!
Anche se non conforme alle regole di grammatica, mi sembrava un'espressione 
piuttosto comune...o no?


 piuttosto comune...o no?
Certo, era veniale, ma mi pareva cosa buona ricordare che "acerrimo" è un
superlativo.
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 Oooh!
According to some grammars, "acerrimo" has partially lost its 
"superlativiness". While you might hear "il piů acerrimo" you won't 
certainly hear "il piů acrissimo", though.
Kiuhnm

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The same thing happens in AmE: it's not uncommon to hear the expression "The 
most unique" and almost everyone has said "XXX...is one of my best friends." 
(There is only one "best.") Not quite the same as piu' acerrimo, but they are 
an improper use of superlatives.
The thing is, they're so widely used that only the most pickiest [sic] of 
people would notice.
-- 
Joey Dee from NYC
Remember: It is To Laugh
Il mio gatto
http://tinyurl.com/2a5u8b

 (There is only one "best.")
That's not true. Never seen a match between the two best tennis players 
in the world?
 From the Collins Dictionary:
"A policemen accidentally killed his two best friends with a single 
bullet..."
"This wine is from one of the two best vintages of the decade in this 
region."
For instance, you can say "You are my best friends", speaking to two 
friends of yours.
Kiuhnm

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Of course you can; you missed the point.
Because of the common usage, it's perfectly natural to incorrectly (but 
acceptably) use a superlative to describe more than one entity.
I was using that as an example of how things like "piu' acerrimo" come into 
use and eventually gain acceptance as stock phrases.
Good, Better, Best. Never let it rest.


 acceptably) use a superlative to describe more than one entity.
No, I didn't miss the point. Who said that the superlative describes a 
single entity? I don't think there is any grammarian in this world who 
has never said "The most common mistakes are...".
Kiuhnm

 has never said "The most common mistakes are...".
Even OAD has amended its definition of a superlative to include "a very high 
degree of xxxx", where once it was "the highest degree."
At one time a grammarian would have said, "The most common mistake is (e.g.) 
using a superlative to describe a high degree of something shared by more 
than one entity. Other common mistakes are..."
All I'm saying here is that the language has changed to accept this usage, 
where once it didn't.
Like "snuck" and "sneaked" in another thread about changing language.
How about this for a compromise: In my preceding post (three prior to this) I 
said "it's an improper use of superlatives." Let me amend that to "it's a 
once-improper use..."
I also said "only the most pickiest" would disapprove, which was meant to be 
tongue-in-cheek, and to mitigate the statement.
I don't deny that I say "one of my best friends" or "one of the best things 
about..."
Maybe I'm too caught up in the history of the language... that should be 
taken as a disclaimer.



Siete i piu' polemicissmi dell'Internet. For my bestest friend, Sir
Delusional, a riprova del fatto che l'America e' l'ombelico del mondo,
basta vedere Tom Jefferson: "In order to form a more perfect union".
Piu' perfetto, eh. Che ve ne pare?
Basta con queste sciocchezzuole. Ripropongo la mia proposta
originaria; chi vuole scambiare con me libri/CD/DVD in lingua inglese
per le medesime in italiano? In questo momento sto cercando i libri di
Massimo Carlotto, non posso mica pagare 22 dollari per un tascabile.
Cinzia
www.sudanreeves.org/Page-18.html
p.s. Adam Atkinson, are you there? I googled your name, which I think
is a very cool name, and found you complaining more than once about
"giving head" being translated as "listening". You must get over this
unhealthy preoccupation.

 taken as a disclaimer.
You should put it in your signature!!! :-)
Kiuhnm

 where once it didn't.
And when would this have happened? Do you have any references to back up
this claim of yours?
Max

Joeva:nnee Neema:n

piuttosto comune...o no?
"il mio più acre nemico" in effetti suonerebbe strano...



Your parenthetical (and OT , I suppose) question is quite difficult to 
answer . I might say it in most company , but then I'm childish enough to 
enjoy swearing and I'm old enough not to give a shit . However , assuming 
that I'm talking to middle-aged or older people , as I mostly do nowadays , 
I'd still be conscious of a certain reservation at the back of my mind , and 
aware that a few of my listeners , whilst they wouldn't object enough to 
protest , would be inwardly registering mild disapproval . With my  family 
and closer friends , though, it's just normal usage ; and I suspect that 
many young people might even be surprised by the suggestion that it's vulgar 
at all .
Mike 

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Perhaps I was inattentive, but it seems to me so far nobody has pointed out
that in Italian grammar we have two types of superlatives: the relative and
the absolute (which is more or less equivalent to the English 'elative').
Lei è *la più bella* ragazza della scuola = superlativo _relativo_ (il suo
primato di bellezza è relativo alla scuola)
Lei è *bellissima* = superlativo _assoluto_ (non si stabiliscono paragoni
con altre bellezze)
"Mara e Silvia sono le più studiose della classe": superlativo relativo,
frase corretta e perfettamente accettabile in italiano (e in inglese,
credo).
"Mara è *la più bellissima* ragazza che io conosca": errato e
inaccettabile. Credo equivalga a "the most very beatiful girl".
Quest'ultimo sarebbe esattamente lo stesso caso de "il più acerimmo", che
equivarrebbe a "il più terribilissimo" (errato e inaccettabile), non fosse
che (cito Kiuhnm) "acerrimo" <<has partially lost its "superlativiness".>>
Spero di non aver ripetuto cose troppo ovvie.
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 surprised by the suggestion that it's vulgar at all .
With my family, I don't normally say "Oggi sono proprio incazzato!". 
That's reserved to occasions when I am *really* angry (once in a year, I 
suppose). Maybe "incazzato" is more rude than "pissed off"...
BTW, I watched Delirious with Eddie Murphy (no, he didn't stop by to 
take a shit: he was behind the screen) and I learnt many new (rude) 
idioms :-) (I've just used one of them).
Kiuhnm

 the absolute (which is more or less equivalent to the English 'elative').
[...]
There is also another little thing that not so many native speakers seem 
to pay attention to: the comparative relates to two while the 
superlative to more than two. For instance, we should say "the better of 
the two", but what do we hear every day?
Kiuhnm

 Maybe I'm too caught up in the history of the language... that should be 


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This "claim of mine" is based on inference as a result of being attuned to 
the way people speak, the way people spoke way back when, and the way people 
are beginning to change their way of speaking; neologisms; new, clever and 
efficient words or phrases that express otherwise complex concepts.
The "claim" is difficult to attribute to any single source, but some of the 
books I've pored through are
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 taken as a disclaimer.
You should put it in your signature!!! :-)
Kiuhnm