Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: lest

By now I probably have a reputation as a stickler for the correct use of the
subjunctive.
QUOTE
At the same time, many Kurds are deeply concerned lest the instability
racking the centre and south of the country spills over into the north,
endangering their hard-won gains.
UNQUOTE
Source: "We've never had it so good", The Economist, 7 August 2003
Am I wrong in thinking that it should be "lest the instability ...spill" not
"spills"?
---
Xakero

 "spills"?
Just now, I saw the following on the Internet and am surprised to learn that
American English is more likely to use the subjunctive than British English.
QUOTE
The present subjunctive has three uses in modern English. First, it follows
verbs, nouns or adjectives that express the idea of command, suggestion or
possibility: I suggested that he leave; It is my recommendation that she not
be appointed; It is fitting that she resign.
This use of the present subjunctive is common in American English. In
British English it is more usual to use should: I suggested that he should
leave, but it seems that the present subjunctive may be on the increase.
Second, it is used in formal English in clauses beginning with words such as
if; although; whether and lest: If that be the case, there is little more we
can do; Tie her up securely, lest she escape.
This use of the present subjunctive tends to sound stilted and
old-fashioned, and in everyday speech and writing the indicative is usually
used instead: If that is the case..., but again American English uses it
more readily than British English.
Third, it is used in certain fixed phrases, such as far be it from me; be
that as it may; God save the Queen; come what may; suffice it to say; heaven
forbid; perish the thought.
UNQUOTE
Source:
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/english/data/d0082859.html
An article in the Econimist falls of course into the category "formal
English", I should think.
---
Xakero

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OALD shows two examples for LEST with the meaning of "for fear that"
LEST
conjunction (formal or literary)
1.in
 order to prevent sth from happening:
"He gripped his brother?s arm lest he be trampled by the mob."
"Lest anyone should doubt my story, I have brought documents to attest
to its truth."
Then, searching the Internet...
QUOTE "The subjunctive mood in English ? a guide to usage"
http://www.ceafinney.com/subjunctive/guide.html
Lest typically takes the subjunctive.
"Do this now, lest you be harried later."
UNQUOTE
("harried"?! Shouldn't that be "hurried", anyway?)
In the end, let's have a look at Swan's "Practical English Usage".
QUOTE SWAN #314
"Lest" can be followed by a subjunctive verb.
"The government must take immediate action, lest the problem of child
poverty grow worse."
UNQUOTE
-- 
Enrico 
"No law in that country must exceed in words the number of letters in
their alphabet...  They are expressed in the most plain and simple
terms, ...and to write a comment upon any law, is a capital crime."

 American English is more likely to use the subjunctive than British
English.
It's true. Some weeks ago we talked about the subjunctive after the verb "to
suggest" (e.g. "I suggest that you write"), more widespread in the U.S.
Bye, FB

 
It could be harried from to harry: disturbare, infastidire.
P.S. Did you lose a post on it.comp.software.newsreader (Evening)?
-- 
Malů - 11/08/2003 17.40.28

 P.S. Did you lose a post on it.comp.software.newsreader (Evening)?
It slipped out of my hand :)
Thx for reporting!
-- 
"No law in that country must exceed in words the number of letters in
their alphabet...  They are expressed in the most plain and simple
terms, ...and to write a comment upon any law, is a capital crime."
J. SWIFT, Gulliver's Travels 
www.online-literature.com/swift/gulliver/15/

 "spills"?
It seems to me that if you choose to use a rather old fashioned word like 'lest'
you should keep up the posh pretense and use 'spill.'

'lest' you should keep up the posh pretense and use 'spill.'
I agree with you.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
A psychopath kills for no reason; I kill for money. (M. Blank)

 you should keep up the posh pretense and use 'spill.'
Agreed!
That would be consistent :)
-- 
Enrico
"Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun."

 UNQUOTE
So Swan, of whom I have read a lot recently in this news group but whose
oeuvre is not on my book shelf, makes it optional: "can be followed..."
---
Xakero

 you should keep up the posh pretense and use 'spill.'
And I didn't even realise that "lest" was old-fashioned. I must be getting
old.
---
Xakero
  Often, the less there is to justify a traditional custom, the harder it is
to get rid of it.  - Mark Twain

 present, anyway.
The principle option, I presume, is not to use the subjunctive: "He doesn't
play tennis, lest he hurts his elbow". It hurts my old eyes, but appears to
be de rigeur in the new-fashioned world.
---
Xakero

 be de rigeur in the new-fashioned world.
I think that's hideous. The present subjunctive is rare, yes, 
but the way to avoid is to avoid constructions that require it.
Realistically, I _would_ suggest that a foreign learner
of English avoid using the present subjunctive.
(Note use of present subjunctive when giving this advice)
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 but the way to avoid is to avoid constructions that require it.
I agree that it should be quite easy to go through life without ever having
to use the present subjunctive, in English, oneself. I couldn't say when I
last used it, perhaps 3 or 5 years ago.
I do not usually notice the presence of the present subjunctive, only its
incorrect absence, like in the Economist article I cited. I figure I hear it
spoken at most twice a year, read it -- in books, magazines, newspapers,
economic and financial reports -- perhaps once a week on average.
That's talking about the third person singular, because in the other cases
of the present tense one doesn't see the difference between subjunctive and
indicative.
-- 
Xakero

 indicative.
Of course.
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