Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Special programs for the children of new immigrants?

I would like to know whether in American and British schools there
are special programs or English courses for recent immigrants'
children, I mean those just arrived from a foreing country.

 children, I mean those just arrived from a foreing country.
In the US there are special programs for recent immigrants but only for a 
limited period of time. Then, they are expected to "mainstream."

 "mainstream."
Do you happen to know whether there are some sort of "admission
tests" in order to determine wheter a child of new immigrants needs
such temporary special programs?

 children, I mean those just arrived from a foreing country.
I don't know about now, but when I was at school they just got
dumped into normal classes. Clearly if they didn't know much English
they would struggle initially.

 wrote in message 
news:8d040c0e-4931-4740...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
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I think things have developed a bit since then - but maybe not a lot , given 
that government has been looking at the problem for over forty years . This 
may be a few years out-of-date , but as far as I know there are (in the UK) 
still no national requirements ; instead , local authorities (even 
individual schools) make their own arrangements , but some do have 
well-organised provision for special lessons , etc. In Europe generally the 
situation is just as varied , though I think Holland and Germany have more 
developed national schemes for teaching the mother-tongue to their immigrant 
children .
Mike 

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In the US we have Title III which is federal money given to the
states  and earmarked for LEP (Limited English Proficiency) school
programs.  I can't speak for other states, but California, which has
the highest percentage of LEP students in the country, receives
beaucoup$ from the feds to run these programs according to federal
guidelines.
This is a 1992 statistic and it’s even higher now.  See first
sentence.  
http://www.catesol.org/shelter.html
Local educational agencies in turn receive state money as well to set
up programs according to state guidelines.  We have ESL, ESOL, LEP,
VESL, EL Civics…and more.  These programs are administered to students
in kindergarten through 12th grade (k-12), adult schools, and junior
colleges.  I work in an adult school and that’s what I am more
familiar with.
When a Lep student registers, we test the student and place him/her in
the appropriate class.  The test used depends on the grade.  In adult
schools we use the CASAS Appraisal  Test.  You would be floored if you
saw the tests we use here.  They have nothing to do with grammar.
In the K-12 system, as soon as students have learned “enough” English,
they are  reclassified from LEP to FEP (fluent English proficiency).
That means that the student is now able to attend regular classes.
What happens, however, is that these students get placed in sheltered
English classes.  Scroll down to read the definition.
http://www.ncela.gwu.edu/pubs/classics/pig/06sheltered.htm
Many of them never make out of sheltered English.  Many do.  I could
go on forever but I think I gave you a good picture of how the
situation is in the States.  Millions of dollars are spent on
educating LEP students of all ages, from all parts of the globe, on
all kinds of immigration statuses (US Citizen, US naturalized citizen,
resident, illegal alien, tourist, student, work permit, etc).   Of
course, we could spend more.  Obama made a really funny comment last
night during the debate.  He said “They passed the No Child Left
Behind Act 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act
 but
they left behind the money for the No Child Left Behind.  I think
that’s partly true.  We could use more money, of course, but we could
also do better with the money that we already have.
My work is to manage a WIA grant (a federal grant) and includes CASAS
and EL Civics testing in an adult school.  So, if you want to know
more about ESL or testing, send me and email and I can even send you
samples of what we do.
gfc

 wrote:

Enrico, I am sorry that my writing is always so sloppy.  I write,
post, and I read after I post.  I usually find that there are missing
words, extra words, or just words that don't make sense.  Well, I
think you are intellingent enough to fill in the blanks and delete
what doesn't elong there.
Thanks.
gfc

 also do better with the money that we already have.
*Yeah*.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
SIR - I could not help but notice that almost immediately after you 
published a flattering Face value profile of Diane Greene, she was 
sacked [...]. I was wondering if you could soon write a Face value 
profile of Italy's prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi? (the Economist)

 well-organised provision for special lessons , etc.
Recent experience with two Italian families who relocated in Somerset,
UK, each with two children - two of primary school age and two of
secondary school age - with very limited or no knowledge of English
when they arrived - showed that none of the four schools involved
provided extra linguistic tuition for the children, even though the
Council does have a language assessment team and can recommend
language support for individual children. In the event, all four
children integrated well in their various school and did better than
average in all the SATS and GCSC exams they took, including English.

 average in all the SATS and GCSC exams they took, including English.
In my school, there was a 13 year old who arrived from Bangladesh
knowing
little to no English. In his first year at my school he was with his
own
age group but in the bottom set. The next year he was in the top set,
and he went on to get the best A-level results of the whole school and
went to Cambridge to do Engineering or Electrical Sciences if I recall
correctly. Of course, I suspect he was an unusual case.
If the children are fairly young, maybe just dumping them into a 100%
English environment works as well as anything would. Under.. 11? 8?

 missing words, extra words, or just words that don't make sense.
No worries, I do it all the time! 

 100% English environment works as well as anything would.
I guess so. Except -perhaps- when there is a number of foreign
children from the same country, thus they preferably speak with with
their own connationals using their native language.

 wrote in message 
news:ec1c5d9b-48b6-46b0...@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
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Wow ! I think the UK needs to send someone out to study your systems .
Mike 

 Mike
ROFL!  Have Mr. Balls (is that his name?) contact me.  I'd be glad to
talk to him.
On a more serious note, I have to remind you that this is a country of
immigrants and that newcomers have been having to learn English or "a"
language since America was discovered, so a lot of practice has gone
into this during the last 500 years.  In recent years we have
distanced ourselves from grammar and we have adopted a more practical
approach toward the teaching and learning of English.  At the State
and federal level they discovered that our students were extremely
proficient with grammar, knew all the past tenses, phrasal verbs, etc,
but when they were faced with real life situations, they could not
function.  They couldn't carry on a brief conversation with a health
provider, for example,  or they couldn'r read a prescription label, or
they couldn't rent an apartment and so on.  In other words, their
English survival skills were close to zero in spite of their excellent
knowledge of the English language.  That's what EL Civics is all
about.  That's another Federawl Project that's part of the WIA grant
that allows schools to incorporate real life English into the
curriculum.  El Civics allows schools to select up to six real life
objectives from a total of 46 objectives.  Just in case you are
interested, (Probably not!) I will post them here:
https://www.casas.org/home/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showContent&mapID=1178
Every student in the school get tested and for every student that
passes the EL Civics test, the school receives approximately $249.  We
never know exactly how much money we are going to get per student
because it's a pie situation and the ampunt we get per student depends
basically on how many students pass.  The more students pass, the less
we get per student.  I coordinate the EL Civics project at my school
since it's part of the WIA grant....anyway.  I know you are now
sufficiently bored so I will stop here.  Thanks for reading.
gfc

 the appropriate class.  [...]
Quindi se un bambino di 6 anni, immigrato, non parla inglese, viene 
segregato in una classe a parte? Se sì, è quello che, con vistose lacune 
di ragionamento, sta tentando di far approvare il governo in questi 
giorni. Proprio ora un esponente della Lega sta facendo una figura grama 
su La7 a proposito di questo tema. Il quesito più rilevante che ci si 
pone è: perché mai mettere questi bambini in classi di soli stranieri, 
se lo scopo è far loro imparare più velocemente la lingua? Perché non 
sarebbe sufficiente istituire dei corsi _aggiuntivi_ mirati 
all'apprendimento più sistematico della lingua e lasciare che i bambini 
restino con i loro coetanei durante il regolare svolgimento delle 
lezioni (cosa che per altro pare essere già in funzione in molte 
scuole)? E' praticamente assodato che, a quell'età, si impara 
infinatamente di più per osmosi che attraverso una serie di regolette 
impartite da una maestra, per giunta restando in mezzo a chi è nelle 
stesse condizioni, se non peggiori. Perfino quando si è più grandi, i 
vari corsi estivi di inglese, chiaramente frequentati da stranieri, 
servono a ben poco al raggiungimento della competenza linguistica. E' 
quindi necessario, quando si tratta di bambini della scuola elementare, 
metterli in una classe a parte e vedere se prima o poi imparano 
l'italiano? Ho un bel po' di dubbi a riguardo.
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...cut...
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Not bored at all ! Given that we're always sending parties to study waste 
disposal in the Seychelles and human rights projects in Zimbabwe , etc. , it 
would be surprising if we haven't sent anyone to learn from the American 
experience , but if so it certainly hasn't resulted in any similar central 
initiatives ; I'll see if I can find anything out . I'm not involved 
professionally in these areas , though I have an interest in education , but 
immigration is a contentious issue over here , and obviously improving 
language skills of immigrant children is a key factor in integration and 
acceptance
Mike
PS Normally when I reply to a post , the bit I quote gets arrows '>' before 
each line . Occasionally , as above , this doesn't happen . I've no idea 
why - can anyone help ? 

 imparano l'italiano? Ho un bel po' di dubbi a riguardo.
Io ho un po' di dubbi sul concetto stesso di "classe" come la
intendiamo in Italia, cioè un gruppo di studenti che seguono sempre e
comunque le stesse lezioni tutti insieme nel 90 percento dei casi. Mi
pare più funzionale il sistema americano (che però non so se
applichino anche alle elementari) secondo cui, se non erro, ogni
studente ha un suo percorso formativo che lo porta a frequentare
alcune lezioni e non altre, quindi si è "classe" per alcune materie
di studio e non per altre.
Per quanto riguarda l'inserimento scolastico dei bambini degli
immigrati (ma vale anche per i bambini stranieri adottati da
italiani), purtroppo in Italia la questione viene discussa in maniera
più che altro ideologica e condita di strepiti su "razzismo" e "non
razzismo", mentre credo che andrebbe vista più sul piano pratico,
didattico-organizzativo. Come hai detto tu, il miglior sistema per
imparare per un bambino è stare con altri bambini con cui si deve
usare la stessa lingua: per questo, la proposta della Lega di "classi
separate" (se ho ben capito) mi lascia perplesso. Tuttavia, è pur
vero che ci sono dei problemi di inserimento che non si possono
semplicemente ignorare. Ad esempio, in alcune zone dove gli
immigrati vengono tutti da uno stesso Paese, si formano in classe dei
gruppi isolati nei quali si parla solo la lingua d'origine. Oppure, i
corsi aggiuntivi di alfabetizzazione vengono fatti durante altre ore
di lezione che quindi i bambini stranieri perdono. E ancora: se
arriva in Italia un bambino che parla solo cinese o swahili, ci vorrà
comunque del tempo perché impari l'italiano (ovviamente dipende anche
dalla sua età, se ha 6 anni è più facile che a 12), e nel frattempo
avere dei programmi sempre unitari per quel bambino e per tutti gli
altri potrebbe creare più problemi che altro. Insomma, credo che la
questione vada affrontata con prammatismo, caso per caso, senza
troppi preconcetti su quello che deve essere per forza giusto o
sbagliato.

 altri potrebbe creare piï¿œ problemi che altro. 
Dicevano in trasmissione che in realtï¿œ questi casi sono piuttosto 
limitati, a dispetto di quanto si possa (far) credere. Poi boh, ci 
saranno anche lï¿œ i casi limite. E' comunque impressionante il fatto che. 
neanche dieci anni fa, questi problemi praticamente non esistessero.
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 no idea why - can anyone help ?
That used to happen to me when, on Outlook, I replied to someone who had 
posted their message through google groups. I thought they had fixed it, 
though.


On Oct 20, 1:45 pm, Enrico il Pentolaio
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non so esattamente come siano le cose alle elementari, ma dubito che a
un bambino di sei anni (od di 7, od di 8..) venga assegnata una classe
di English as a Second Language.  Sarebbe un controsenso secondo me se
si considera che un bambino di quell'eta' puo' benissimo imparare la
lingua per osmosi, con molta facilita' e in breve tempo.  Probabilemte
ci saranno delle agevolazioni particolari, dei tutors, un buddy system
or qualcosa del genere.  Se proprio ti interessa sapere, mi informo e
ti mando una email.
gfc

>in realtà questi casi sono piuttosto limitati,
Può darsi, ma ho l'impressione che ognuno veda solo quel che vuol
vedere in base alla sua ideologia, da una parte e dall'altra.
In un'altra trasmissione, a una mamma che solleva esattamente questo
problema pratico per i suoi figli a scuola, perché il programma
veniva appiattito per tener conto dei bambini stranieri che non
conoscendo l'italiano e partendo da basi diverse avevano maggiori
difficoltà, un politico ha solo risposto "Signora, lei è razzista".

> > > in realtà questi casi sono piuttosto limitati,
Ops, ho sbagliato il quoting. Questa riga era di E. il P.

 di studio e non per altre.
Pensa che io invece ho trovato il modello americano (per quel poco che viene 
filtrato e sicuramente distorto dalla tv) controproducente sotto il profilo 
della socializzazione.