Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: try to do / doing

I must've learned somewhere that "try to do" and "try doing" means two 
different things. I'll illustrate the difference with two simple sentences:
1. I tried to jump over the obstacle but it was too high (or tall?)
2. I tried adding more water but it didn't help.
 
Is this a real difference or is it just something only the grammar 
police would care about?
 
Kiuhnm

 I must've learned somewhere that "try to do" and "try doing" means two 
 
*mean, of course.
 
Kiuhnm

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I think you are right. In my grammar book I can read the following.
 
Try to do = attempt to do, make an effort to do:
"I was very tired.  I tried to keep my eyes open, but I couldn’t. "
 
Try also means ‘do something as an experiment or test’:
"I didn’t like the way the furniture was arranged, so I tried moving the
table to the other side of the room.  But it didn’t look right, so I
moved it back again. "

 moved it back again. "
 
Is that a British English grammar book?
 
Kiuhnm

 On 7/11/2018 00:28, danilob wrote:> I think you are right. In my grammar book I can read the following.> > Try to do = attempt to do, make an effort to do:> "I was very tired.  I tried to keep my eyes open, but I couldn?t."> > Try also means ?do something as an experiment or test?:> "I didn?t like the way the furniture was arranged, so I tried moving the> table to the other side of the room.  But it didn?t look right, so I> moved it back again. "Is that a British English grammar book?Kiuhnm
 
Yes. It is the English Grammar in Use B2 by Cambridge University
 Press.  The differences between British and American are shown in
 a specific Appendix, but there is no footnote about try to vs try
 -ing.
 
-- 

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OK, thanks. Anyway, "I tried to do" gives 132M results and "I tried 
doing" only 2M on google.
 
Kiuhnm

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There is no difference in meaning between the pairs of sentences below.
 
I tried to jump over the obstacle but it was too high.
I tried jumping over the obstacle but it was too high.
 
I tried adding more water but it didn't help.
I tried to add more water but it didn't help.
 
There might be some minor differences in connotations that could be read 
in some particular contexts but they would mostly be invented in the 
mind of the reader. For example, in the first pair, I might guess that 
the first sentence refers to one attempt while the second sentence 
refers to several attempts. However, if I grit my teeth and stretch my 
neck and then shake my head vigorously, I can imagine that the first 
sentence refers to several attempts and the second sentence refers to 
one attempt.
 

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See danilob's post to understand where my question is coming from. I 
suspected that this rule wasn't really a rule because I kept coming 
across sentences, written by native English speakers, that violated it. 
Either it's a very old prescriptive rule or it's only valid in British 
English.
 
Adam, what say you?
 
Kiuhnm

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Seems like a real difference to me.

On 7/11/2018 18:52, Tony the Ice Man wrote:
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What about the following sentence:
   I tried sending her flowers, writing her letters, giving her 
presents, but she still wouldn't speak to me.
 
Does it still sound right when you replace the -ing form with the 
infinitive form?
Or does "I tried to send her flowers" give you the idea that you tried 
to send her flowers but the flowers never reached her for whatever reason?
 
Kiuhnm

 I tried to add more water but it didn't help.
 
I've asked several USAians and they all agree that "I tried adding 
water" and "I tried to add water" typically mean different things.

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This is a better example to show possible differences between the two 
types of phrasings. Still, most of the meaning comes from the context.
 
It is more common to say "I tried sending her flowers." And, with this 
phrasing, it is clear that the "sending" occurred. That is; unless you 
add "...but the florist screwed up the order." Then it would be clear 
that you didn't send the flowers.
 
If you say instead, "I tried to send her flowers," the meaning is 
ambiguous in that it's unclear whether the "sending" occurred and she 
refused to receive them, or the florist screwed up the order and they 
were never sent, or you sent them and she received the flowers but she 
still wouldn't speak to you. However, you are right that the connotation 
of "an obstacle" is stronger with this phrasing.
 
So, to try to sum this up (or, to try summing this up), there is an 
inherent weighted connotation that the flowers were sent with the 
phrasing "I tried sending her flowers," and there is an inherent 
weighted connotation that some obstacle prevented the sending with the 
phrasing "I tried to send her flowers." The "sending" phrase is more 
common and the difference in the level of ambiguity is apparent if the 
two different phrasings stand alone. However, either phrasing can be 
configured in a context to have any of the meanings discussed.
 
A proposito, con le frasi "to try to sum this up" e "to try summing this 
up" c`è una differenza sottile tra le connotazioni delle due, anche se 
volgiono dire la stessa cosa.
 
to try to sum this up = provo da fare il riassunto
to try summing this up = spero che tu capisca perché faccio il riassunto
 
Per il lettore, tutt' e due significano che "in seguito, lo scrittore fa 
il riassunto."
 
Allora, non preoccuparti per quanto riguarda le differenze sottili delle 
connotazioni fuori del contesto perché il contesto è l'asso nella manica.

 to try summing this up = spero che tu capisca perché faccio il riassunto
 
This is very similar to the rule I was talking about.
 
Maybe you'll agree with the Swan who is less strict in the separation 
between the two cases (being more descriptive than prescriptive):
1. To talk about making an experiment - doing something to see what will 
happen - we use try + -ing
2. To talk about making an effort to do something difficult, we can use 
either try + infinitive or try + -ing.
For instance:
   I tried to change the wheel, but my hands were too cold
   I tried changing the wheel, but my hands were too cold
 
So you're perfectly right that context is very important because the 
-ing form can be used with both connotations.
 
Kiuhnm

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I'm sure that Swan spent a lot more time thinking about it than I did. I 
might still say if the mood struck me, "I tried to shake the bottle to 
see if the oil and vinegar would emulsify," but I'm a scofflaw. 
"Shaking" does sound a bit better.
 

 I'm sure that Swan spent a lot more time thinking about it than I did.
 
He also read a lot more grammar books than you did during his studies. 
Most of what he knows he probably read somewhere, but that's true for 
every expert in any field.
 
Kiuhnm

 to try summing this up = spero che tu capisca perché faccio il riassunto
 
A proposito, si dice "provo /a/ fare il riassunto".
A volte è "di", altre volte è "a":
   Cerca di fare ...
   Prova a fare ...
Non saprei darti una regola generale.
 
Kiuhnm

On 08/11/2018 17:47, Joe W Dee wrote:
 > Yes. IMO "I tried xxxing, but yyy." means I did xxx it but it didn't 
help,
 > whereas "I tried to xxx but yyy" could mean something impeded me from 
doing
 > so in the first place.
As per the original question.
 
In the case of questions both forms are possible but I think which 
version you choose would depend on which form of failure seems likelier.
 
e.g. "Have you tried rebooting it?" because maybe it doesn't help but at 
least it's almost certainly possible. "Have you tried to reboot it?" 
seems a bit odd. What would prevent you from rebooting it? Maybe not 
having superuser access of course. But "Have you tried to turn it off 
and on again?" would be even stranger because with physical access to 
almost anything you can turn it off and on again. Except maybe nuclear 
power plants or blast furnaces or similar very specialist items.
 
"Have you tried phoning her?" vs "Have you tried to phone her?". The 
latter would suggest you imagine there's been a power cut or natural 
disaster or similar, I'd say.

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Your initial question was "Is this a real difference or is it just 
something only the grammar police would care about?"
 
If anyone were to misunderstand "I tried to send her flours, write her 
letters, and give her presents, but she still wouldn't speak to me," it 
would be someone who learned English from grammar books instead of 
immersion and observation of the living language.
 
I don't think that any other type of English speaker would make that 
error, especially because the "but she still wouldn't speak to me" is 
the contextual clue that she received what was sent. Any ambiguity might 
be problematic if the speaker/writer had some apparent personal obstacle 
that made the act of writing likely to fail, but then there would still 
be that "she wouldn't speak to me" to inform. (I am dismissing the 
possibility that the expectation could exist that the act of trying to 
write and failing could have a supernatural effect on the intended 
recipient of that communication, who might then begin to talk to you.)
 
Even with the sentence "I tried sending her flowers, writing her 
letters, giving her presents, but she still wouldn't speak to me," the 
meaning is framed by the context. The "sending" implies but doesn't 
affirm that the flowers were received. The "writing" implies but doesn't 
affirm that the letters were sent.
 
If we demand ferocious clarity and no inference in our communications we 
would have to write very long sentences, or multiple sentences.
 
"I tried sending her flowers, and they were sent, and she received them. 
I tried writing her letters, and I sent the letters, and she received 
them. I tried giving her presents, and I managed to be in physical 
proximity to her, and she received the presents. But, she still wouldn't 
speak to me."
 
Instead, we have faith that people don't expect a sentence to be an 
island, or that a single, literal interpretation without context defines 
its intended meaning.
 
So, given the choice of "try to do" versus "trying to do," I suggest, as 
I mentioned earlier, that you choose the more common second phrasing. 
Or, if you prefer to say it the way I would, you could say "I sent her 
flowers, I wrote her letters, and I gave her presents, but she still 
wouldn't speak to me." (None of this is true! She still engages with me 
despite my flaws! I imagine.)
 
And, even then, don't bother describing (to describe?) whether any of 
those attempts to ply her actually reached their destination.

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Grazie per farmi ricordare. Ho un libro di verbi che identifica le 
preposizioni da usare con alcuni verbi. Ho confuso l'uso con "ho da 
fare." Queste sviste sono frequenti perché non ricevo abbastanza 
feedback in questi giorni per essere in grado di migliorare il mio 
italiano. Va bene, sarò in Italia molto presto, e guadagnerò qualche mal 
di testa ascoltare così tanti italiani che parlano contemporaneamente.

 something only the grammar police would care about?"
 
I think it _is_ a real difference. To be sure it's not an immense one 
and extra context would make it clear what was meant if there were 
doubt, but basically I'd say:
 
"I tried setting the dial to 7" generally means I did set the dial to 7 
(but this didn't accomplish whatever I was hoping)
 
"I tried to set the dial to 7" generally means I didn't succeed in 
setting the dial to 7.
 
If you want to ask these sorts of things as questions I suppose you go 
with whatever seems more likely. "Did you try setting the dial to 7?" 
seems much more plausible than "Did you try to set the dial to 7?". The 
second sounds like you think there's at least some chance of "No I was 
not able to set the dial to 7", which would mostly seem pretty odd.
 
Maybe this is partly regional? Various Americans and GBians I've asked 
all seem to agree with the above.
 
I suppose something like "I tried snowboarding." is different. That's 
probably not saying snowboarding was an attempt at reaching some goal or 
objective. "I tried snowboarding"... and did or didn't like it or was or 
wasn't good at it, or whatever.
 
"I tried to snowboard" does sound to me like snowboarding was your goal 
and you failed at it.

(of course I've not checked what Swan says. He will have spent more time 
thinking about this than I have and have more/better examples)

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I think I've already spent enough words describing my thoughts on the 
matter so I won't reiterate.
 
I will, however, make one observation. It strikes me as unusual that one 
of the strong connotations you derive from "I tried to" is that it 
implies failure or displeasure.
 
If a painter said that "I tried to portray the quality of light 
filtering through leaves" he might not think that his attempt was a 
failure. He might just be saying that he tried to do something.
 
It's not unusual to be so persuaded by our personal perceptions of word 
connotations that we forget the subjectivity that is always present.

 failure. He might just be saying that he tried to do something.
 
Ok that's an example I hadn't thought of. This is the sort of thing 
where I typically discover Swan has covered more cases than I would ever 
think of.
 
This does feel a bit like the same sort of thing though. Isn't it a sort 
of modesty or understatement. It might sound a bit boastful to say "I 
portrayed the quality of light filtering through leaves"? Maybe you can 
only say that about other people's and not your own. You can say you 
tried to. (and may or may not have succeeded. not for you to say!)
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