Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: frase in inglese

Ciao.
Vedendo dei film in inglese mi č capitato di sentire una frase del genere
"I gare go" (l'ho scritta cosě come l'ho sentita)
Cosa significa??
Quale č la corretta frase?
P.S: gare non ha nessun significato
 

 "I gare go" (l'ho scritta così come l'ho sentita)
"I gotta go", cioè "I've got to go", "devo andare".
-- 
Laz

 "I gotta go", cioč "I've got to go", "devo andare".
Pensavo anche io ad una cosa del genere ma all'udito mi č parso di sentire 
una parola tipo quella che ho scritto..
non so, forse č un modo di dire in Americano 

 non so, forse � un modo di dire in Americano
c'e' chi pronuncia "got to" come "gorra" (e "lot of" come "lorra")

 non so, forse è un modo di dire in Americano 
La pronuncia della lettera "t" in inglese (non solo americano, anche se 
in quello quasi sempre, nei casi applicabili) può essere simile a quella 
della nostra "r" arrotata.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping
 (anche se a leggere la teoria 
sembra molto più complicata di come in realtà è).
-- 
Laz || 
http://www.dimensionedelta.net
 || 
http://www.josswhedon.it
|| 
http://www.doctor-who.it
 || 
http://www.miltoncaniff.net
"You're a... teacher?" "Part-time."

 Quale è la corretta frase?
e se fosse "I dare go"? 

 e se fosse "I dare go"?
Io oso andare..potrebbe essere 

 e se fosse "I dare go"?
Direi che le possibilità che non fosse "I gotta go" siano praticamente 
nulle!
Laz

 nulle!
Confermo: anche in un altro film ho sentito dire una frase del tipo
"I gare/dare go" e poi l'attrice ha detto nuovamente "I have to go".
Però mi resta difficile pensare che l'attrice abbia detto "I gotta go"..è 
proprio diversa la pronuncia tra gare e gotta 

 proprio diversa la pronuncia tra gare e gotta 
That's because you mispronounce "gotta".
I assume we're speaking of American English:
1) the 'o' in gotta sounds more like an Italian 'a' than an Italian 'o';
2) 't' or 'tt', between vocalic sounds (therefore not necessarily within 
the same word), is commonly pronounced 'd'.
3) The sound 'd', between vocalic sounds, becomes a flap.
A fact quite interesting is that the Japanese have trouble telling 'r' 
and 'l' apart and yet they say "lestorande" (restaurant), but "biru" 
(beer) where the 'r' is a flap.
Another "flappy" (lol) example is
"We got to get out of here!" -> We gar@gerar@vhir! (@ = schwa, to use ad 
libitum :-) )
When you say "perché" your 'r' is a burst of 3-5 flaps. If you try to 
pronounce your 'r' with a single flap (like in "mora", perhaps) you'll 
see that "ada" and "ara" sounds very alike.
Kiuhnm

 libitum :-) )
Quindi mi stai confermando che in Americano "got to" lo sentirò pronunciato 
come "gar" 

 come "gar" 
Yes, but remember that that 'r' is neither the American 'r' nor the 
Italian 'r': it's a flap.
Kiuhnm

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:47dbef63$0$4786$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...

Cosa intendi per flap? 


Well, there are situations where 'got' might be stressed:
- So you really want to go?
- I *got!* to go!
In this case, there should be a glottal stop (indicated with 't!').
Kiuhnm

 Cosa intendi per flap? 
- What's that?
- That's a butcher's broom.
- What's a butcher's broom?
- THAT!
Kiuhnm


Ok, let's clarify: a flap is (the sound produced by) a tap of the tip of 
the tongue against the teeth ridge (you tap it with your tongue when you 
say "mora", "gara", etc...)
Kiuhnm

 -ai gaada go- 
But it doesn't!
Kiuhnm

 wrote in news:47dc023e$0$4789
$
4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it
:

"I got to go"
"I gotta go"
"I gorra go"
"I go'a go"
Si sentono tutte!
(E se poi ci mette di mezzo le pronuncie americane ...)
Antonio

 Si sentono tutte!
As I said, it depends on the stress and, thus, on the context.
I was talking of *fast* speech.
Every pronunciation treatise will tell you that the "flap" is a sound 
widespread among North American English native speakers, even if they 
don't know it!
Kiuhnm

 - I *got!* to go!
When writing, I'd include "'ve" or "have", even when not pronounced, 
unless of course such effect is intentional.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
Si contra fa est diabolus in musica.

 As I said, it depends on the stress and, thus, on the context.
It also depends on what you *think* you've heard. Anyhow, I don't recall 
ever asking myself "hey, but they uttered that sound! if I had to write 
it down, should it be this or that?". My approach is basically the 
following:"oh, so that's the sound, huh? ok, I'll try to keep it in mind 
till next time". No need to complicate things, in my opinion, unless 
it's your intention to do exactly so.



The most out-dated and obviously wrong opinion ever expressed on this ng.
Mike 

 unless of course such effect is intentional.
Yep, it was intentional, that being a dialog.
The Collins Dictionary says that "in informal American English, people 
sometimes just use "got" (SPOKEN)".
Kiuhnm

 It also depends on what you *think* you've heard.
Unfortunately, what we think we heard and what we really heard can be 
two completely different things and depend on our native language and 
experience. I wouldn't base my pronunciation on what I think I heard. As 
you probably already know, everything we think we heard is a filtered 
(and sometimes quite distorted) version of what we really heard.
When an AmE native speaker writes "goda", he's referring to the flap 
sound without even realizing it. We Italian are, on the other hand, 
thinking of the 'd' sound and that's misleading.
For instance, here is what Ann Cook says in his AmE pronunciation course:
"If you speak any language - such as Spanish, Japanese, Hindi, Italian, 
or Dutch, among others - where your R touches behind the teeth, you are 
in luck with the American T. Just fix the association in your mind so 
that when you see a middle position T, you automatically give it your 
native R sound. Say, Beri bara bira ... with your native accent. (Not if 
you are French, German, or Chinese!)
Along with liaisons, the American T contributes a great deal to the 
smooth, relaxed sound of English. When you say a word like atom, imagine 
that you've been to the dentist and you're a little numb, or that you've 
had a couple of drinks, or maybe that you're very sleepy. You won't be 
wanting to use a lot of energy saying [ae.tom], so just relax everything
and say [ad@m], like the masculine name, Adam. It's a very smooth, fluid 
sound. Rather than saying, BeTTy boughT a biT of beTTer buTTer, which is 
physically more demanding, try, Beddy bada bidda bedder budder. It's 
easy because you really don't need much muscle tension to say it this way.
The staircase concept will help clarify the various T sounds. The 
American T can be a little tricky if you base your pronunciation on 
spelling. Here are five rules to guide you.
1. T is T at the beginning of a word or in a stressed syllable.
2. T is D in the middle of a word.
3. T is Held at the end of a word.
4. T is Held before N in -tain and -ten endings.
5. T is Silent after N with lax vowels."
Kiuhnm

 It's the Chinese who say L for R, Japanese say R for L.
Then why not "Restorande"?
Kiuhnm

 demanding, try, Beddy bada bidda bedder budder. 
Ma non contraddice quanto detto prima? 
"when you see a middle position T, you automatically give it your native R
sound. "


 sound. "
That's true only if you're Italian, Spanish, etc.... What about all the 
others? :-) The symbol/sound 'd' is more "universal" so she sticks to it 
throughout the book.
Also note that, in most AmE dialects, "knotted" and "nodded" sound the 
same, meaning that the 'd' is also substituted for a flap.
Kiuhnm

 statements in the right way
You just need to reorganize your neural net.
Kiuhnm

 [pr. res(u)toran]
That's not what I hear when I listen to this native speaker:
http://rapidshare.com/files/100082038/restaurant.mp3.html
It seems that he pronounces the "r" (single flap) only when it occurs 
between two vocalic sounds. For instance, he first says "lan" and then 
"storan".
Kiuhnm
P.S. Ops, I added "de" which means "at".


I don't think Japanese have problems with R at least not when they 
speak italian.
-- 
Ciao Pizzi.

 Anyway, transcription (roomaji?) uses R, not L.
Frankly, I'm not very interested in how it's written in romaji. It's no 
better than writing "building (pr. bildin')".
Kiuhnm

 italian.
("Japanese" is the language, while you meant "the Japanese", i.e. the 
people of Japan)
But maybe they have problems with the English 'r':
http://rapidshare.com/files/100082038/restaurant.mp3.html
Kiuhnm

 Kiuhnm
-- 
Ciao Pizzi.

 ignoro.
That's because the Japanese know how to pronounce a "flap". The problem 
with the flap is that you can pronounce it easily only between vocalic 
sounds.
If you tried to say "perché" with a flap, you'd probably say "pereché". 
That's exactly what the Japanese do.
How would a Japanese say "Where is the restaurant 'Bella Napoli'?".
He'd say something like "Lestorant 'Bera Napori" dokodeska?".
Kiuhnm

 flap.
Infatti credo giochi anche questo, oltre al nostro "precondizionamento" di
ascoltatori.
Vedi anche
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping
[...]
Flapping/tapping is a specific type of lenition, specifically intervocalic
weakening. For people with the merger these following words sound the same
or almost the same:
    * betting/bedding
    * boating/boding
    * coating/coding
    * grater/grader
    * hearty/hardy
    * kitty/kiddie
    * liter/leader
    * latter/ladder
    * matter/madder
    * metal/medal
    * Patty/Paddy
    * rater/raider
    * shutter/shudder
    * waiter/wader
For most (but not all) speakers the merger does not occur when an
intervocalic /t/ or /d/ is followed by a syllabic 'n', so written and
ridden remain distinct. A non-negligible number of speakers (including
pockets in the Boston area) lack the rule that glottalizes t and d before
syllabic n, and therefore flap/tap /t/ and /d/ in this environment. Pairs
like potent : impotent, with the former having a preglottalized unreleased
t or a glottal stop (but not a flap/tap) and the latter having either an
aspirated t or a flap/tap, suggest that the level of stress on the
preceding vowel may play a role in the applicability of glottalization and
flapping/tapping before syllabic n. Some speakers in the Pacific Northwest
turn /t/ into a flap but not /d/, so "writer" and "rider" remain distinct
even though the long "i" is pronounced the same in both words.
Flapping/tapping does not occur in most dialects when the /t/ or /d/
immediately precedes a stressed vowel, as in retail, but can flap/tap in
this environment when it spans a word boundary, as in "got it" -->
[gɑɾɪt], and when a word boundary is embedded within a word, as in
"buttinsky". Australian English also flaps/taps word-internally before a
stressed vowel in words like "fourteen".
In many accents, such words as riding and writing continue to be
distinguished by the preceding vowel: though the consonant distinction is
neutralized, the underlying voice distinction continues to select the
allophone of the /aɪ/ phoneme preceding it. Thus for many North Americans,
riding is [ɹɑɪɾɪŋ] while writing is [ɹɐɪɾɪŋ]. Vowel duration
may also be different, with a longer vowel before tap realisations of /d/
than before tap realisations of /t/. At the phonetic level, the contrast
between /t/ and /d/ may be maintained by these non-local cues, though as
the cues are quite subtle, they may not be acquired/perceived by others. A
merger of /t, d/ can then be said to have occurred.
The cluster [nt] can also be flapped/tapped; the IPA symbol for a nasal tap
is [ɾ̃]. As a result, in quick speech, words like winner and winter can
become homophonous. Flapping/tapping does not occur for most speakers in
words like 'carpenter' and 'ninety', which instead surface with [d].[2]
[...]

 [...]
If I may, I'd like to add that what matters is the sound, not how the 
word is spelled.
The 'e' of "ninety" is mute, so it's not surprising that, in most 
English dialects, the following 't' is not replaced with a flap. In 
"carpenter" the first 'e' becomes a schwa or even disappear so we have 
the same situation.
Kiuhnm

 word is spelled.
This is why I've never coped well with learning from a book.
Even with the IPA description of how to sound the various
bits, I still find a quick MP3 is just what the doctor ordered.
The descriptions of Italian ("a" as in hat not father) or
French (none of mine distinguish between "tu" and "tous",
at most they tell me that, as I'm not a native French
speaker I won't be able to hear it!) grammars are quite
funny. I must try and pick up the corrsponding opposites
sometime (i.e. a Learn English grammar written in either
Italian or French) to see if they're just as bad (all
those different "th" sounds must be fun to describe).
I did stumble across a Japanese grammar the other day.
The very few words I've picked up (from Hiro in Heroes :-))
don't match the "guide" at the front. OTOH a langauge that
doesn't seem to conjugate verbs according to person or number,
doesn't seem to change nouns too much and leaves out as many
words as possible leaving a great deal to be provided by
context does sound like it can't be too hard to learn.
If I can find some MP3s!!!
Antonio

 bits, I still find a quick MP3 is just what the doctor ordered.
Beh, dipende. Come si diceva prima, a volte l'ascolto da solo non basta ma
va guidato in base a informazioni che aiutano la corretta percezione e
riproduzione dei suoni. Inoltre, per quanto sia utile l'ascolto, quando ti
trovi di fronte a una parola nuova, che fai? Vai ogni volta ad ascoltare
l'MP3? :)

 If I can find some MP3s!!!
You should try Pimsleur Japanese; it's all about listening and speaking!
Kiuhnm

 ogni volta ad ascoltare l'MP3? :)
Se e` una parola spagnola o italiana dovrebbe essere abbastanza
facile. Si puo` sbagliare magari i doppi consonanti, si deve
trovare la forma base della parola (mangio ... mangiare, rossa ... rosso)
ma in pochi secondi con un dizionario tutto e` a posto. Poi si va
ad ascoltare l'MP3 :-)
Se e` una parola inglese, ti trovi in un mare di guai anche se
sei di madrelingua inglese.
Io l'MP3 lo voglio per sentire una pronuncia corretta di "konichiwa"
o "ordinosaure".
Antonio

 You should try Pimsleur Japanese; it's all about listening and speaking!
I came across the Japanese language book by accident. If I have the time
to sit down and learn a language I'm more likely to try and improve my
rusty schoolboy French or maybe have a go at either Spanish or German.
Japanese might be fun, but I'm never going to get any real practice
and I have little motivation for learning it (other than just the
fun of learning something new). Plus I'm guessing that the Pimsleaur
course isn't cheap!
There was a suggestion about 20 years ago that Japanese was the
"next big thing" and that learning it would be hugely helpful in
business (or so I was told by a few people doing Japanese+Business
courses at Uni). Never happened. The latest fad seems to be
Chinese+Business.
Antonio

 It's incredible how many sounds I were missing...
I *was*
Yesterday night I turned off my PC ready to go to bed and then, while I 
was brushing my teeth, I realized I had written "were" instead of "was"!
That's how my mind works. I'm quite absent minded, but my mind keeps 
analyzing everything I've done. It's a gift... and a course :-)
Kiuhnm

 Chinese+Business.
When they'll(*) tell you it's Italian+Business you'll know something is 
not right.
Kiuhnm
P.S. Is the future tense ok?

 P.S. Is the future tense ok?
Uhm... I don't think so.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
Si contra fa est diabolus in musica.

 was brushing my teeth, I realized I had written "were" instead of "was"!
LOL!
That used to happen a lot to me after I had done a written test at 
school. Mistakes I had made would pop up in my mind even several days 
after the test, and it wasn't really the nicest feeling.


 Uhm... I don't think so.
I know the general rule, but I don't like the present tense in that 
sentence. I don't know exactly why.
Kiuhnm

 after the test, and it wasn't really the nicest feeling.
That never happened to me because I didn't give a damn about school.
Kiuhnm

 sentence. I don't know exactly why.
I would use the present tense, but I guess we should wait for somebody 
else's opinion.
:-)


 That never happened to me because I didn't give a damn about school.
I did!


 Kiuhnm
-- 
Ciao Pizzi.

 :-)
I meant something like
"A time will come when they'll tell you it's Italian+Business and then 
you'll know that something is not right."
BTW, I remember an exception to the rule:
"If you'll make the dishes, I'll help you with your homework."
I must have read it on the Graver (I was just skimming through it).
Kiuhnm

 and a CURSE or is there a pun I don't get.
No, my mistake.
BTW, that's a recurrent witty remark said by Mr. Monk.
Kiuhnm

Kiuhnm wrote: > Enrico il Pentolaio wrote: >> Kiuhnm wrote: >>>>> When they'll(*) tell you it's Italian+Business you'll know  >>>>> something is not right. >> I would use the present tense, but I guess we should wait for somebody  >> else's opinion. >> :-) > I meant something like > "A time will come when they'll tell you it's Italian+Business and then  > you'll know that something is not right." > BTW, I remember an exception to the rule: > "If you'll make the dishes, I'll help you with your homework." > I must have read it on the Graver (I was just skimming through it). > Kiuhnm "If you'll DO the dishes, ..." Dale Erwin 


What you have said is perfectly understandable, but "Last night..."
would be more idiomatic.
-- 
Dale Erwin
Av. Circunvalación CEC-2
Urb. Los Girasoles de Huampaní
Lurigancho, Lima 15, PERU
-- Posso resistere a tutto... tranne alle tentazioni
 

 would be more idiomatic.
Thank you; I'll try to remember it.
But "tomorrow night" /is/ idiomatic, right?
Kiuhnm

 is not right.
Indeed. I'm not holding my breath.
Antonio

 would be more idiomatic.
Oh I missed that. You can say "last night" or "yesterday evening" 
(assuming it was not too late, I guess), but the terms aren't 
interchangeable.


 I must have read it on the Graver (I was just skimming through it).
Swan says:
*******
259.3 IF... WILL/WOULD
- We can use "if" + "will" in polite requests. In this case, "will" is 
not a future auxiliary; it means "are willing to".
Ex.
If you will come this way, I'll take you to the manager's office.
If your mother will fill in this form, I'll have her luggage taken up to 
her room.
- "Would" can be used to make a request even more polite.
Ex.
If you would come this way...
Wait over there, if you would.
We would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to let us have your 
cheque by return.
Stressed "will" can also be used after "if" when it expresses the idea 
of insistence.
Ex.
If you will get drunk every night, it's not surprising you feel ill. (= 
if you insist on getting drunk...)
*****************
261.1 FUTURE IN IF-CLAUSES
We normally use a present tense with "if" (and most other conjunctions) 
to refer to the future.
Ex.
I'll phone you if I have the time. (NOT ... if I will have the time)
But we use "if... will" when we are talking about later result rather 
than conditions (when "if" means "if it is true that"). Compare:
I'll give you £100 if you stop smoking. (stopping smoking is a 
_condition_ of getting the money)
I'll give you £100 if it'll help you to go on holiday. (the help is a 
_result_ - it follows the gift of money)
****************


Enrico il Pentolaio wrote:
[...]
That Swan knows a lot of things :-)
Kiuhnm

 That Swan knows a lot of things :-)
Too many for my liking.



Absolutely!
