Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Berserk Muslim

Dear All,
"Her father had been a Muslim, a nice enough fellow but a *Berserk* all 
the same. And that Turkish blood was in her, whether she liked it or not."
Ho trovato che:
the adjective comes from the noun berserker, or berserk, which is from 
the Old Norse word berserkr, “a wild warrior or champion.” Such warriors 
wore hides of bears, which explains the probable origin of berserkr as a 
compound of *bera, “bear,” and serkr, “shirt, coat.” These berserkers 
became frenzied in battle, howling like animals, foaming at the mouth, 
and biting the edges of their iron shields. Berserker is first recorded 
in English in the early 19th century, long after these wild warriors 
ceased to exist.
(The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language)
Che cosa può avere a che fare con i turchi e i musulmani?
TIA
Anna

Anna Martini ha scritto:

Direi proprio niente.
Nel contesto della frase, ho l'impressione che la parola significhi
semplicemente "sfegatato", "fanatico". "Suo padre era musulmano: brav'uomo
ma comunque un fanatico."
Solo, non capisco perché è scritto con la B maiuscola; per un attimo m'era
sorto il dubbio che fosse un cognome...
--
Cingar
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 the same. And that Turkish blood was in her, whether she liked it or not."
When a warrior goes berserk he won't stop fighting till the end. You can't
reason with him, not even if you're his closest friend of his barbaric
fiancée. He will kill his opponend or die trying. Pure war frenzy.
I'd say that here the term "berserk" means "fanatic", as Cingar pointed
out. Was he a terrorist or a member of some sort of jihad militia? If he
was a terrorist I'd translate "berserk" with "combattente fanatico". If
you're not sure wether he was a terrorist or not, I'd stick with
"fanatico".
The capitalized B puzzles me, though. I thought that maybe there was a
terrorist cell called Berserkers, and he - being a member of it - was a
Berserk. I did a brief search on google, but I couldn't find any group with
that name.
Sebastiano

 "fanatico".
Innanzitutto grazie a entrambi.
E chiarisco come posso con un po' di contesto, scusandomi se lo faccio 
tardivamente.
Il padre turco della ragazza non è rimasto sulla scena abbastanza a 
lungo perché noi se ne sappia qualcosa; in effetti se n'è andato prima 
ancora che lei nascesse. La preoccupazione di avere un padre turco e 
musulmano è generata dal fatto che il boyfriend della ragazza è uno 
skinhead razzista simpatizzante del BNP (British National Party). Ho 
pensato perciò che quel Berserk possa essere una specie di insulto 
razzista, l'equivalente di Infedele, Miscredente, Saraceno, Pagano o 
qualcosa del genere, ma non ho alcun appiglio. Does this ring any bell?
Ciao,
Anna

 that name.
I've seen computer games (e.g. Myth II: Soulblighter) with units
called "Berserks" or "Berserkers".
-- 
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Che cosa può avere a che fare con i turchi e i musulmani?
I guerrieri nulla, tranne che con l'etimologia della parola :-)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=berserk
1. Destructively or frenetically violent: a berserk worker who started
smashing all the windows.
2. Mentally or emotionally upset; deranged: berserk with grief.
3. Informal. Unrestrained, as with enthusiasm or appetite; wild:
berserk over chocolates.
[...]
marked by crazed or frenzied behavior suggestive of sudden mental
imbalance, usually used in the phrase go berserk 
'bye

 called "Berserks" or "Berserkers".
Do you think that "Berserk" could mean that this guy was a terrorist or,
without further information, would you simply consider him a fanatic?
Sebastiano

 qualcosa del genere, ma non ho alcun appiglio. Does this ring any bell?
Offensivo lo è, ma non è direttamente collegato alla religione mussulmana o
al problema del terrorismo.
Traduci con "fanatico terrorista", se i mothertonguers confermano, o con
"fanatico combattente" o semplicemente con "fanatico", se invece non è
diretta la connessione con il terrorismo.
Un Berserk è violento, irascibile, irragionevole e, concedetemelo, anche un
po' stronzo. :)
Normalmente tale termine si usa nella forma "to go berserk", che viene
usata per indicare - ad esempio - l'avere una reazione violenta, l'agire
d'impulso in modo esagerato, ecc.
Un bullo palpeggia una donzella e il suo fidanzato "goes berserk" e riempie
di botte il fanfarone dalle lunghe mani collose.
La folla "goes berserk" dopo le dichiarazioni del premier. Ecc.
Non è automatico che chi "goes berserk" muova effettivamente le mani.
Sebastiano

 wrote in message
news:OLt2e.26911$kC3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...

I think it's just another poor choice of words. I can't imagine using
Berserker capitalized, except in a PC gaming context. I could imagine
using berserk, but not in this context.
I can't think of the name of any extremist Turkish group.
Maybe the author should change the father's nationality to Indian,
where he could be a "Thuggee".
A simple "extremist", "fanatic" or "radical", or some combination of
such words would be more appropriate in the current context.
Your translation is bound to be better than the original work.   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 the same. And that Turkish blood was in her, whether she liked it or not."
Iracondo?

 the same. And that Turkish blood was in her, whether she liked it or not."
Con quella B maiuscolo dovrebbe essere il nome di un tribů, ma mentre ci
sono i Berber, non credo che esistano i Berserk.
-- 
Xakero

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:OLt2e.26911$kC3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...

Non so se può servire, ma i berserk o berserkers, proprio perchè
guerrieri che indossavano pelli d'orso o di lupo, erano scambiati per
uomini-orso o uomini-lupo. Il diffondersi della credenza nei licantropi
è dovuto molto probabilmente agli attacchi di questi terribili guerrieri
del Nord Europa, che incutevano timore per il loro aspetto e
aggressività.

 wrote in message 
news:gzw2e.27364$kC3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...

Never heard of 'a Berserk' , nor is there any evidence of it in my 
dictionary (only Berserker) . How confident are you in the learning/care 
over detail of your author ? I would have guessed that he meant a Dervish (a 
sect proverbial in the UK for their Whirling and Howling) - the very word 
Dervish is Turkish .  Or , much more likely (and a more generous 
supposition!) , the error is the character's , not the author's : the 
latter's intention here is precisely to expose the confused ignorance of the 
boyfriend , whose point of view this sentence presumably represents .
Mike 

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:OLt2e.26911$kC3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...

To "go berzerk", in some parts of the States means to "go crazy" - or,
incontrollable, hyperactive, with strange or inexplicable behavior, and so
on
like,
"I don't know what happened to my cat, all of a sudden just went berserk
(running and jumping everywhere )"
"She had three kids, all of which went totally berzerk when I announced we'd
go to the park" (started screaming, jumping, making noise)
"He lost all his money in that deal, and after that he went berserk" (became
crazy)
"I'd tell you where we're going, but if I did, you'd go berserk" (mad,
having incontrollable reactions)

 presumably represents .
Riflettendo su tutte le vostre generose risposte, questa tua mi sembra 
l'ipotesi più plausibile, Mike.
Mi piace anche la risposta di Xakero, che mette in campo i Berberi, o 
comunque l'idea di una fantomatica tribù di selvaggi   che il simpatico 
skinhead consideri degni di disprezzo. Forse potrei mettere 
semplicemente 'Barbaro': conserverei anche un'assonanza con 'berbero' e 
con 'berserk', anche se non lo saprà mai nessuno (a meno che qualcuno di 
voi, per avventura, legga la mia traduzione) :-)
Grazie davvero a tutti!
Anna

 represents .
Dervish... C'mon! This hypothesis wouldn't survive a good shave from
Ockham's razor...


 wrote in message
news:3b0n1uF...@individual.net...

The Whirling Dervishes are not at all fanatic or violent, merely
mystics who work their way into a trance by their dancing.
Joe from Massachusetts

 mystics who work their way into a trance by their dancing.
Joe, scusa se te lo dico, ma dovresti quotare un po' meglio! :-)
When quoting others' text, DO NOT quote the entire contents of the 
original message--instead, trim it down to the relevant text and delete 
the rest. If none of the original text is relevant to the response, then 
don't quote any of it.
http://www.redballoon.net/~snorwood/quote-rant.shtml
Ciao,
Anna

ok

 ok
Lol, stavolta hai esagerato nell'altro senso :-)
Ciao
Anna

 --
The simplest sustainable hypothesis is that the use of the word 'a Berserk' 
is an error ; the simplest sustainable interpretation of this error is that 
it is attributed to the character in order to suggest the ignorance which 
often underlies and accompanies racial prejudice (literary examples abound ; 
a well-known one is e e cummings' poem 'Yguduh') .
That being the case , what is likely to be the word which the character 
intends to use ? If you leave a blank in the original sentence , and ask an 
Englishman to fill it with a word combining the associations of Muslim and 
wild/crazy/fanatical and Turkish , millions would say 'a Dervish' - this is 
a common enough word here to describe someone involved in frenzied physical 
activity . How many Englishmen would fill it with the words 'a Berserk' ? - 
I would stake £1000 and give you odds of 1000/1 that the number would not 
exceed 0 . Subject to correction by evidence , this is a usage not found in 
English and not acknowledged by the dictionary . Occam would certainly have 
agreed that the impossibility of this assumption renders some other 
assumption necessary .
Mike 

 wrote in message 
news:nxT2e.96460$SF.42170@lakeread08...

This is no doubt true , but then I never used either word about them , nor 
are those qualities specifically indicated in the original passage . Also , 
what is in question is the connotations of 'Dervish' in popular use(and 
especially as used by people like the character in this book) , and I reckon 
that  'fanatical' might well be one of them ; most ordinary Brits are not 
experts in the doctrines and practices of Sufi moslems , and to our reserved 
race the notion of people crazily whirling around till they collapse in the 
cause of their faith might readily qualify for the description of 'religious 
fanaticism.' The original passage only contains the notion of something odd, 
something to be wary of , that has been passed down to the girl .'A nice 
enough fellow' would actively militate against any suggestion of violence - 
'a nice enough fellow but a violent lunatic' is unlikely .
The idea of 'violent' only derives from the word 'berserk' ; but my main 
point is that 'a Berserk' is hitherto unheard-of in English , and 
'Berserker' anyway is as remote as it could possibly be from the notions of 
'Moslem' and 'Turkish' which it is here linked , and that therefore it's 
said in error for something else ; if anyone can come up with a more likely 
'something else' , then I'll withdraw the suggestion of 'Dervish' !
I might also add here , since I didn't in my earlier post , that , though 
the adjective 'berserk' is common here , 'a Berserker' is a very arcane term 
; and I'd risk another £1000 to bet that not one Englishman in a thousand 
could link the word 'berserk' to Norse warriors , let alone anyone as 
uneducated as this character appears to be .
I wonder if Anna could persuade her author to settle the question for us ?
Mike 


At the risk of seeming to want to appear right at all costs (whereas I'm 
just a simple searcher after truth , happy to be shown my errors if I'm 
wrong) , I have to point out that , if we're looking for terms for which 'a 
Berserk' might be a plausible error , the term would have to be one commonly 
used in the sense dictated by the context , and one available to the 
character who is represented as using it . If you asked the majority of 
English people what a Berber was , they'd be far more likely to say 'Someone 
who makes a rude noise after eating' than to get it right ; it just isn't a 
well-known word ; in the very unlikely event that this character had heard 
the word , I can't think that he'd intend it here , because (despite its 
derivation from the Greek 'barbaros')   it is (in my experience) never used 
with the connotations you suggest . Again , if anyone can come up with 
examples of 'Berber' used pejoratively in popular English , I'll get out the 
sackcloth and ashes  .
I'm not altogether happy with my suggestion of 'Dervish' , but I just don't 
think a native English speaker could entertain the other suggestions so far 
. 'Dervish' and 'Berserk' don't have to sound particularly alike - the 
common idea is that of being in a frenzy , and it's not impossible that this 
young man , having in his mind the image of frenzied whirling associated 
with the Turkish dervishes (an idea he could certainly have come across) and 
aiming for the name to attribute to it , could come up with the word 
'berserk' (which he would certainly know as meaning 'in a mad frenzy' ) .
Mike 

 pejoratively in popular English , I'll get out the sackcloth and ashes  .
No, no: 'bàrbaro' in Italian translates *barbarian*. 'Berber' would be 
'bèrbero'.
Ciao,
Anna

 wrote in message 
news:9w73e.31178$kC3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...

Sorry , crossed lines - I wasn't commenting on your suggested version , but 
on the idea that 'Berber' could have been intended instead of 'Berserk' .
Mike 

"Mike Brewer"  ha scritto nel messaggio:
[CUT]
Anche tu dovresti tagliare un po' il testo a cui ti riferisci...
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio
-- 
visita il mio sito: (
http://members.xoom.it/srw
)
_____________________________________
"La scienza e' zoppa senza la religione; la religione e' cieca senza la
scienza." (Albert Einstein)

 single case of such a usage in the whole of English literature .
A berserk is one that is violent, upset or unrestrained (
dictionary.com
).
I think you would win the bet, though.
A berserk is an ancient Scandinavian warrior frenzied in battle and held to
be invulnerable or one whose actions are recklessly defiant. (Merriam
Webster).
berserk 
1822, introduced by Sir Walter Scott, from O.N. berserkr (n.) "raging
warrior of superhuman strength," probably from *ber- "bear" + serkr
"shirt," thus lit. "a warrior clothed in bearskin." The -r was O.N. masc.
singular ending, mistaken for agent noun suffix. The adj. is 1867, from
such phrases as go berserk.
Even though the term "berserk" as a noun exist, I still think you would win
the bet, it could be a mistake.
Maybe the writer was a role games player. :)
Sebastiano

 assumption renders some other assumption necessary .
Well, it seems that impossibility became possible. The noun "berserk" is
on the dictionary and in at least two English novels...



I'm sorry that much of our difference of opinion stems from the fact that I 
did not make crystal clear that , as always , whatever I say relates to 
British English usage .I'll try to remember in future .
With that qualification , I stand by all that I've said . As I've said 
before , if anyone quotes evidence to the contrary , I've no problem 
whatsoever in admitting that I'm wrong . You do imply that you think I'm 
rather arrogant , but I don't see any point in qualifying everything with 
'in my opinion' : whatever I say is my opinion , as helpful as I can make it 
, based on the fact that I'm a  native British English speaker , I've read a 
vast amount of British English literature , and I'm a teacher of language 
and literature . In this case , my experience does not include a single 
instance of the use in modern British English , spoken or written , of the 
term 'a Berserk' - if I'm proven wrong and it is indeed current , then I'll 
have learnt something new , as I've already (though inadvertently) learnt 
something new here about the differences between American and British 
English . Every cloud , as we say in the UK , has a silver lining .
Mike 

 wrote in message 
news:r24ytsawlnti$.1l7etgah0h3u5$.dlg@40tude.net...

I should have made absolutely clear that I was talking throughout about UK 
English . Since the book from which the original sentence comes is set in 
the UK , I rather took for granted that the discussion was about UK English 
. I never claim to know anything about American usage .
Mike 

 wrote in message
news:3b5q7uF...@individual.net...

Neither do I.  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 the UK , I rather took for granted that the discussion was about UK English 
That's why I thought you would have won the bet. But then I saw that the
term 'berserk' - not 'berserker' - was first introduced into the English
language by Sir Walter Scott. Wasn't he Scottish? 
Sebastiano