Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Ancora sul congiuntivo (non da parte del principe...)

spesso ho sentito molte persone usare WOULD + INFINITO 
(invece del passato) subito dopo IF.....seguito ovviamente da un altro
WOULD  nella frase annessa
ho provato a protestare, ma molti hanno detto che si puo' usare
voi  lo avete mai sperimentato?
grazie
l

 voi  lo avete mai sperimentato?
Non che io ricordi....puoi fare qualche esempio?
Potrebbe trattarsi di una forma di *Zero Conditional*...che non sono mai 
riuscito a capire a cosa serva... o___O nello *Zero Conditional* il 
tempo della principale è lo stesso dell'ipotetica...
1st conditional:
  IF + Simple Present, Future (will + inf.)
2nd conditional:
  IF + Simple past, Present Conditional (would + inf.)
3rd conditional
  IF + Past Perfect, Perfect Conditional (would + pres. perfect)
MA
Zero conditional
  IF + Simple Present, Simple Present
(questa è la forma che conosco io)
Nebo


no, mi spiace,
IF + WOULD + INFINITO, then WOULD + INFINITO

 WOULD  nella frase annessa
"I would be very grateful if you would stop talking"? È corretta. Su certi
libri c'è scritto che si usa quando c'è di mezzo la volontà (io tradurrei
comunque "se la smettessi di parlare", credo, ma diciamo che è qualcosa
come "se volessi smettere di parlare"); su altri libri (mi pare l'OED,
anche) si dice che è semplicemente uguale a "if you stopped talking", senza
fare accenno alla volontà. 
Altro più tardi.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Are you sure an embryo parson should have a plane?"
"Everyone should have a plane!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)


"If she would only wear rouge she would not be afraid of being seen; but
last time I called, I observed the blinds were let down immediately."
(Persuasion)
"If he would only have done as well by himself," said John Dashwood, "as
all his friends were disposed to do by him, he might now have been in his
proper situation, and would have wanted for nothing; but as it is, it must
be out of anybody's power to assist him."
(Sense and Sensibility)
-- 
Enrico C  /testing Pimmy/
Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it
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Another possible version of this would be:
"I would be very grateful if you were to stop talking".
Joe from Massachusetts


Congratulations on the examples !  They do illustrate very well the idea of 
'volontà' mentioned by FB ; however , this isn't the same as 'would' 
expressing the conditional mood (the uses are clearly differentiated in the 
OED) ; also , regarding the use of IF + WOULD in the other case mentioned by 
FB ('If you would stop talking I would be very grateful') this either 
involves the sense of 'volontà' or is simply explained by the fact that (as 
in other European languages) we use the conditional as a polite way of 
expressing a desire or a request : 'I would like you to stop' , 'Would you 
stop talking ?'  These uses are clearly distinguishable from normal 
conditional sequences , which would occur much more often .
Going back to the OP , I think that if Lorenzo means he's often heard this 
from non-native speakers , then he's probably quite right to protest , and I 
think (putting his and my experience together) maybe it's down to 
faulty/mistaken teaching . I mentioned recently that I was helping a Czech 
couple with their English ; Irena had already learnt a certain amount , and 
only this week I was correcting this very mistake - I noticed that she 
invariably used 'IF ...WOULD... , then ..WOULD...' , instead of 'IF ...PAST' 
; she was somewhat mortified when I picked this out , and thought that that 
was what she had previously been told was correct.
(Not the only instance of faulty instruction I've come across so far , 
either ; e.g. Petr had been to a college in London for a few weeks before 
coming up north , and had been told to say 'I prefer doing this THAN doing 
that' - simply wrong in BritEng . I think it's wrong in American , too , 
tho' I know they use THAN sometimes where we don't , so maybe I've got that 
wrong ?)
Mike 

 stop talking ?'
QUOTE (SOED)
WOULD
[...]
23. In a noun-clause (freq. introduced by that) dependent on expressions of
desire, advice, or request. L16.
 
Tennyson "I wish the snow would melt".   P. Theroux "He hoped that he would
be struck down by a thunderbolt".  
UNQUOTE
I gather volition may be expressed either on the part of the speaker ("I
wish the snow would melt" [1], unless Tennyson is sort of beseeching the
snow...) or on the part of the subject of the subordinate clause ("I wish
you would stop talking", i.e. "I wish you would be willing to stop
talking"). Or is it that volition is always intended on the part of the
speaker and I've always misunderstood this kind of sentences?
[1] It sounds strange to this non-native speaker. How come that the verb
"wish", which expresses volition, is stressed putting a "would" in the
subordinate clause, in another clause?
Bye, FB
-- 
Conversation like television set on honeymoon: unnecessary.
(Murder by Death)

Mike 
felle free to correct all my mistakes. I wish I had a teacher like
you!

Mike 
-- 
Enrico C  /testing Pimmy/
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I prefer this to that.
I prefer doing this to doing that.
I prefer doing this rather than (doing) that.
We do use THAN in some cases where you don't, as in THANksgiving
turkey.  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 turkey.  :>)
You say "This is different than that", this is possibly what Mike was
thinking of. In GB they say either "different from" or "different to",
which is frowned upon by somebody.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Something to take to the country." (holding out a bunch of flowers)
"Flowers come _from_ the country, Charles."



I've never heard this (or even seen it , as far as I can remember) in UK 
English . It would only make sense if (as you say) it expresses the idea of 
will ; it certainly can't be seen as a replacement of the past perfect (past 
perfect subjunctive only in theory , since it is never distinct from the 
indicative) - e.g. 'If he had played , the result would have been different' 
couldn't be replaced by 'If he would have played ...'  If I did want to 
retain a stress on the idea of will in the past perfect 'If' clause , I'd 
say something like , 'If only she'd been willing to take advice ' , 'If only 
she'd been prepared to listen to John' (both , unlike 'If only she had 
listened', implying that she'd actively resisted such a course) .
Mike 

 wrote in message 
news:4e9egq53mgyi.2...@40tude.net...

.
Just to clear up a detail or two first , the P. Theroux example is just a 
normal tense sequence , 'would' being simply the past of will : 'I hope he 
(I) will be struck down' , 'He hoped he would be struck down' ; substitute 
'said' or 'thought' or 'predicted' for 'hoped' , and the rest would remain 
the same.
 Whether , in 'I wish John would stop talking' , the notion of volition on 
the part of John is intended , any more than on the part of the snow in 'I 
wish the snow would melt' , is very doubtful . I think the fact that an 
element of 'volition' may be suggested by 'wish' is coincidental , and it 
doesn't help to try to link it to the 'will/would' ambiguity  .
'I wish the snow would melt' is a form which is extremely common  in 
everyday usage ; I think you've simply got to accept it as a fact of usage 
not tied in with others . 'I wish that ... would do...' , where 'would do' 
is the conditional tense, is the expression of a contary-to-expectation 
desire about the future , analagous to the usage 'wish that + past subj' to 
express a contrary-to-fact desire about the present : 'I wish that Phyllida 
were here' , 'I wish that Penelope smoked less .'
Actually , on reflection it's maybe not quite a case on its own : a number 
of verbs (a subset of those that take the subjunctive in Italian ?) may , 
when used in the present , be followed by a 'that' clause with the 
conditional tense (tho' often too with a normal future , impossible with 
wish)  : verbs of negative desire ('I fear that') , belief ('I believe that 
that would be a disaster' ; 'I believe that that will not happen') etc. 
Haven't time to think about this any more ; I may come back to it if someone 
hasn't given a better explanation in the meantime .
I'm beginning to think your mission in life is to scramble our brains , FB .
Mike 


Who says "This is different than that"? I certainly don't.
Joe from Massachusetts


Oh, that's a relief. For a minute I thought that this was another
attempt by the Brobdingnagians of the English language to once again
put down the poor Lilliputians of that idiom.   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 the US.
640,000 hits on *.edu sites, where you'd think people would know better.
-- 
Mary

 
What's wrong with "I see things differently from you"?
-- 
Mary

 I see things a different way than you ["see things"; or "do"].
How about "I see things a different way from yours"?
Bye, FB
-- 
"While I'm here, might I make a few changes? I adore my bedroom, but do you
think I could have my curtains washed? I believe they're red, but I should
like to make sure."


 
Some do. I, for one, thought it was acceptable. There's a usage note
discussing this on 
 
 
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=different
Max

 "different from/than" issue.
This is the very example in the Gregg Reference Manual which advises the use 
of 'different than' in appropriate situations. It may also be used in 
awkward but permissible sentences like: Relative to humans, a gibbon is more 
different than a bonobo.

 different than a bonobo.
Quite another matter, I'd say: here "from" would be wrong.
Bye, FB
-- 
Nasalization is just a part of life.
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 What's wrong with "I see things differently from you"?
This actually sounds odd to me; it almost sounds as though you're saying "I
see things differently from you[(r) point of view]." 
I would much more expect "I see things differently than you [do]."
-- 
This is my opinion of modern, colloquial, American English. 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

> What's wrong with "I see things differently from you"?
It should be 'I see things differently from the way in which you do'. That 
is a perfectly clear construction. 

 is a perfectly clear construction.
It is, but not many people talk that way in casual conversation.


 Who says "This is different than that"? I certainly don't.
Me neither, but so many people do that I assumed it was acceptable in
the US.
-- 
Mary

 Who says "This is different than that"? I certainly don't.
Hel-LO-o! "Usage, usage, usage," I say, claiming to be a purist. :)
What I mean is, although "different from" is preferred, in my view (and
others') it is acceptable to use "different than" to avoid awkward
sentences like:
"I see things a different way from the way in which you see things"
which most comfortably and colloquially comes out as
I see things a different way than you ["see things"; or "do"].
Not only that, because of its gaining frequency, its frequency is gaining,
(he said, tautologically speaking.]
This may not be the way you write, but it's certainly the way a lot of
people *speak*.
I would be more concerned about the "which/that" dilemma than the
"different from/than" issue.
-- 
