Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Here we go again - mysteries of English (please keep Cinzia quiet!)

Sinners!
As many of you already know (Cinzia, I know you are there) every 
now and then I come out with some consideration from the 
Dark Side Of English (at least for me). 
I may have learned one thing or two from the last time I dared
to post some opinions of mine, so let me start with an official
disclaimer: this post is not intended to make fun, insult, or
in any way to diminish the language, pride, culture, heritage 
and civil rights of any English-speaking, carbon-based form of 
life walking the paths of this sorry planet.
This time I want to bring out a topic that keeps troubling me
from time to time. I can't remember if it has been discussed here
already, I just remember I talked about it some time ago with the
dear Arianna. 
The problem: why at times it seems so difficult for English speaking 
folks to understand words that are not properly spoken, but the error
is (or just seems to be) minor, like a misplaced accent?
An example that happened to me time ago while buying a ticket
at the movies: I approach the counter and say: one for "The MessEnger",
stressing the second E instead of the first. The guy behind the desk
goes blank, so I repeat 'one ticket for "The MessEnger"', but he keeps
staring at me. Things were getting embarassing, so I went 'one
ticket for movie number 3', at which the light comes back into his
eyes and he exclaims "Oh...the mEssenger...!!!" (and that's how I
learned the correct pronunciation of the word 'mEssenger').
Anyway, that was not an isolated case, I had other similar experiences,
and this fact always surprised me. In my experience, in the only 
other language that I know (Italian), this kind of problem is
much less likely: it is not unusual for foreigners to mistreat 
italian words in unspeakable ways but in most cases, with a little
stretch of imagination, we can understand what they mean all the same.
So what is it that prevents an English speaker to deduce the
correct word from a (slightly?) mispronounced one? For example, 
what keeps one [*] from inferring that 'messEnger' is probably just 
a variation of 'mEssenger'? Do they sound so different to English 
ears? 
[*] There always is the possibility that that particular guy
might not have been the quickest of cats, but let's keep the
debate on strictly linguistic terms :)
+--
I know you can't speak, I know you can't sign
So cry right here on the dotted line

, 
yeah....@earthlink.net
 says...

Well I think you got a "fifteen-watt-bulb" at your Cinema counter.
But most English people never hear anything but normally pronounced 
English, and perhaps you didn't look particularly foreign :-)
I have had the same trouble with tElefono & PositAno. Generally though 
Italians are so helpful no matter how badly one brutalises their 
language. They seem pleased that one is even attempting to speak it-- 
Chris Notton
(still trying to get to grips with all your past tenses!)
Replace "nospam" with my surname to reply by email
Sostituisca il "nospam" con il mio cognome per rispondere
}<////(*>

 language. They seem pleased that one is even attempting to speak it--
Sure thing, it's so rare that we love to show off our perfect pronounciation
and correct the mistakes. People appreciate corrections so it's a double
match. And since we're at it, "PositAno" and "TelEfono" are the correct
forms :)
Giovanni

English, 
Oh no!  That's not the case in the area he lived.  Here many people speak
English as a second language.  
ciao
Ari

is (or just seems to be) minor, like a misplaced accent?
Lupo, they had that on Unsolved Mysteries the other night!  Kidding aside, it
is a very valid question.  I have never been able to figure it out.  My feeling
is that English words are usually shorter than words in Italian or other
romance languages.  Therefore, the shorter a word is, the more important each
vowel/sound/ syllable is.  For example, look at the word pan.  There's pan,
pen, pin.   They all have different meanings.  What differentiates each word is
the vowel sound.  Just a slight change in the vowel sound  will give the word a
completely different meaning.   In other words, you only have that one sound to
rely on to tell you what the word is.  If someone says to you:  I lost my pen. 
You know what he is saying by identifying the sound of the letter e between the
p and the n.  That one sound becomes very important.  I t hink that in English
every individual sound is more crucial than in Italian.   Italian words are
usually longer so you have other letters to clue you in as to what the word is.
 I can't verbalize very well what I am trying to say, but I hope you
understand.  
Another reason might be the fact that  English vocabulary is so vast that any
word that you do not understand immediately, you tend to interpret as a word
that exists, but that you are not familiar with.  If you say to me: the problEm
instead of the prOblem, I might think "what is that word?  I have never heard
it before"  whereas an Italian hearing prOblema instead of problEma would not
assume it was a different word, but figure out that it was the word problEma.  
Se io dicessi "Le grOndaie ti aspettano" capiresti?
I think we had this conversation before.  
ciao
Ari

As any teenaged American would say: "Whatever, Ari!".
I think you just got a jerk selling tickets. The only reason the English
speaking person can't understand what is being said is because he/she does
not want to. They do not take the time to.
I have that problem with French which I speak badly. When I have the
misfortune to find myself in Paris I never ever speak French. They never
understand a word I say.  I cross the border into Switzerland or when I go
to Quebec in Canada, my French doesn't change, it is still as bad, but the
people in those countries understand me and make an effort to help me. I
think it is just the people you run into.
Just my two (euro) cents worth.
Nicola


I think we had this conversation before.  
Yes, we talked about it once, at Fresh Choice. Ah, the good old times!


 
I will have a go:
If I said "The gutter awaits you"
(correct?)
-- 
Chris Notton


-- 
exactly!
ciao

 completely different meaning.  
yours can be a reasonable approach(the peculiarity of sound recognition
in English), but the episode told by lupo buono describes something
else. The difficulty in "translating" incorrectly pronounced words is,
imho, function of the degree of literacy of the "listener." The less
literate the "listener" the more difficult the "translation"(always a
necessary process) will be. As a matter of fact those episodes, where a
tiny mistake leads to an incomprehensible word, occur at McDonalds way
more often than during an academic meeting. 
ciao,
alessandro

more often than during an academic meeting. 
That's why the McDonalds menu has numbers next to each item.  You can just say
"Number 5 please!" and even then they get it wrong.  Actually, you had better
not say "please".  Just say "Number 5" because "please " may confuse them.
ciao
GFC

 not say "please".  Just say "Number 5" because "please " may confuse them.
yes, but it is not always possible(what if you do not care for a
combination meal? ;-)). Take Donkin' Donuts, I was used to ask for two
"sugar raised donoughts(sp?)", without looking at the shelves, at a
local Donkin' Donuts. When, for a day or two, they discontinued them I
was looked at as if I were an alien (I mean they did not understand what
I was talking about). Everything came back to normal the very next day.
Can you believe it?
ciao,
alessandro

Can you believe it?
Yes, and they look at you like you are the one who is saying something off the
wall.  It has happened to me too.  In fact, it happens to me all the time.  I
usually wave a hand in front of them and say "hello.....anybody home?????"
ciao
Ari

 wrote in message
news:20020802202103...@mb-cq.aol.com...


 them happening to anyone else.  I am in Washington, DC.
I believe Arianna lives in California. I have been living in the US for
more than eleven years, five of which in Connecticut, four in Manhattan,
and two and a half in North Carolina. I've visited 35 states of the
Union out of 50, district included. Is that enough? I might add that I'm
currently studying the processes we've mentioned in our postings. The
episode described by lupo buono(have you read it?) looks really similar
to the early stages of phonological awareness where more sophisticated
metacognitive strategies aren't developed enough (to understand
unfamiliar sounds). 
 
ciao,
alessandro

 Dark Side Of English (at least for me).
I couldn't be more quiet than this!! :-)
Sorry, I'm very busy and out of the home most of the day. I'll answer as
soon as I find the time to sit down at this crazy machine and work out the
best possible way to mistreat you!!
;-))))))))
Cinzia
--
Per rispondermi personalmente, togliere "-sendmenocrap" dal mio indirizzo
e-mail.
To reply, please remove "-sendmenocrap" from my e-mail address.

 
That is interesting; however, I think that some tendency
to interpret a rarely heard or misheard word using only
a sort of 'quick reference' vocabulary composed by the set
of terms that one is more used to hear is probably automatic and
understandable. I believe it is just a sort of cerebral 
'laziness' (not necessarily negative) that in some cases could 
be exaggerated by a boring environment or job. Now that I think 
of it, if I had a job where all I hear is people asking for 
donuts for example, my brain would slowly tend to filter out
anything else (as we filter out background sounds)and I would
need some time to come out of that state when someone, for example,
asked me the time of day (that is when Ari would ask if there's 
anybody home). On the other hand, one doing a more active 
job (communication-wise) is probably much less prone to fall
in that kind of situation.



I always wondered what was the need of the numbers...:). By the way, in 
Italy you can observe a probably similar solution in the numbers you have 
to take in the stores, which were introduced when it was realized that the 
concept of making a queue, for some reason, is lost upon 90% of Italians.


 in that kind of situation.
I'm sold, very good point. The "celebral laziness"(or lack of the
necessary metacognition to "decode" what you call "anything else") can
be/is environmetally driven. 
ciao,
alessandro