Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Re: trojan - troyan

 Why "Troy" -> "trojan", and not "troyan"?
How many words do you know that ends in "j"?
Kiuhnm

 taken as a disclaimer.


Isn't Google amazing ! I got 146,000 results - all of which seem to be 
references to a Bulgarian town I'd never even heard of , however familiar it 
may be to my compatriots .
As to why the English word became Trojan , not Troyan , I don't know ; the 
OED gives Trojan as Middle English , but Chaucer used both forms , e.g. in 
'Troylus and Cryseyde' :-
    'But the Troyanes gestes , as thei felle ,
    In Omer , or in Dares , or in Dite ,
    Who-so that kan may rede hem as thai write.' (I , xxi)
but also
    'O olde , unholsom , and myslyved man !
    Calkas I mene , allas ! what aylede the
    To ben a Greke , syn thow ert born Trojan ?' (IV , xliv)
There isn't a similar word (that I can think of) to compare it with .
Mike 

 Non capisco che vuoi dire.
I mean that when the common rules would lead to very uncommon forms or 
words, strange things can happen.
Kiuhnm

 Could you explain which rule has to be used?
When I first thought of it it made more sense :-)
Let's see. In Latin, Troy is written as "Troia" and trojan as "troiano" 
so it's plausible that the letter 'i' has become 'j' in English. Since 
*very* few English words end in 'j', "Troj" has become "Troy" while 
"trojan" hasn't been modified.
I haven't the slightest proof of what I'm saying. It's just an idea that 
came to my mind when I read your post. Sorry if I'm misleading you.
Kiuhnm

     -- Oscar Wilde, "Intentions"
Trojan - la j e' pronunciata come la j di jour e nota che la  o  e'
pronunciata come la o in "dono".
ciao
ari

 
Prior to Chaucer's time there was no J in English. I'm not certain it came 
into use even then.
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The text I quoted from was a printing of the Harleian 2280 manuscript - but 
I don't  know the exact date of that , or the other extant manuscripts of 
Chaucer's work .
Mike 

 I doubt that "Troy" comes from "trojan" instead of the opposite.
It wouldn't be the first time the 'i' becomes 'j'. For example, 
"iniectio/onis" becomes "injection". And I suspect there are many other 
similar cases.
Kiuhnm

 
It was a time when there were no rules regarding spelling, which resulted in 
words being written the way the individual writer pronounced them. It's my 
unattested suspicion that, other than French loanwords (probably the only 
words beginning with 'j'), an intervocalic 'j' in any word was pronounced as 
an 'i' or 'y'.
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 Chaucer's work .
Thanks for pointing me to those manuscripts. I find an interesting use of a 
'j-like' letter in the following excerpt, where the 'j' is actually a 
finalized version of the letter 'i', representing Roman numerals:
The . ij . lesson ys . ij . haukys wt ij . halfe haukys cleuÿg ye elbowys 
wyth ye same . ij . doublylrowndys forsayde wt. iij . foote owtward . & as 
meny hamward.
(ij and iij meaning Roman numerals ii and iii. Translation follows:)
The second lesson is two haukys with two half haukys cleaving the elbows with 
the same two double rounds aforesaid, with three feet outward, and as many 
homeward.
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 similar cases.
Ce ne sono moltissimi. Probabilmente tutte le 'i' semi-consonantiche in
Latino (che venivano anche rappresentate come 'j') sono diventate 'j'
nell'inglese moderno. Ad esempio, 'just', 'injury', 'jugular', 'january',
'joke'.
Max

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Good point; the question remains: when did the pronunciation of 'j' change 
from vowel to consonant? I'm verrrrrrrry curious about that now.
It occurs to me that in Italian that letter became 'g(i)' in many cases and I 
wonder if there was a parallel shift in pronunciation, English and Italian.
So far, I haven't seen any indication that it occurred during the Great Vowel 
Shift, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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 from vowel to consonant? I'm verrrrrrrry curious about that now.
You could find something here:
http://theorbo.com/Writings/Language.htm
Kiuhnm

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Thanks!
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 Chaucer's work .
If you are talking about a modern edition, be aware that publishers
normally modernize the spelling of ancient authors.
If you were looking at an original manuscript, notice that lowecase
"i" had a tailed variant looking exactly like a modern "j", and called
"long i" (whence the Italian name for letter J); however that was not
a separate letter but just a "i" with a flourish, which was used at
the beginning of words for decorative purposes.
Similarly, "u" and "s" had the variants "v" and "ſ" (a sort of "f"
with no horizontal bar, called "long s"), which were used at the
beginng of words and in a few other cases. The variant shape of "s"
slowly died out to simplify printing (it only survives as the left
part of german "ß"), while the two variants of "i" and "u" began to be
used, in the 15th or 16th centuries, as a convenient mean to
distinguish the different sounds of "i" and "u". It was only around
the 17th centuries that the two forms begat to be treated as separate
letters, and it was only at this time that the corresponding capital
letters "U" and "J" were invented.
--
Cingar

 letters "U" and "J" were invented.
Grazie mille. That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
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letters "U" and "J" were invented.
I did \t least know about the 'u' and 's' ! but thanks for all the 
information about the 'j' .
Mike 

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If you mean the 'j' is pronounced like French "jour", (or as the 's' in 
"pleasure")I disagree. It's an English 'j' all the way "tro-djan."
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Oh, then they talk funny there, too. :-)
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 - Show quoted text -
Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe my hearing is bad, but that's what I've always
heard.
By the way....What's the first thing to go with age?  I always thought
it was night vision, but perhaps it's hearing.
bye
Ari

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Maybe you have French ears.
The first thing to go with age? It's... um, it's... Oh, I know this one: 
it's.... give me a minute, it'll come to me.
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 earlier version 'Troyanes' .
That's what I think. It remains the fact that that word indeed had two
forms: "Troian" (or its variant "Trojan") versus "Troyan", which
probably corresponded to different pronunciations .
--
Cingar

 (ij and iij meaning Roman numerals ii and iii. Translation follows:)
That was quite common, especially before the dot over "i" became
customary: without dots or tails, a "iii" (i.e. "three") could easily
be mistaken for an "m" (i.e. "one thousand").
Similarly, "ij" or "ji" was the normal spelling for the Latin ending "-
ii", in order to avoid confusions with an "n".
--
Cingar

 an 'i' or 'y'.
It could be, especially if the word in question was a direct loan from
Latin, introduced by someone who was familiar with the Italian style
of pronunciation (the so-called Ecclesiastical pronunciation). That
would explain Lentulax's "Troian" (or "Trojan") vs. "Troyan": if
"i" (or "j") was pronounced as in Eclesiastical Latin, the two words
would have had the same pronunciation.
Writing "y" in place of "i", "f" in place of "ph", and so on, would
not have been much of a scandal at that time, in English or in any
other language.
--
Cingar

 Shift, but I wouldn't be surprised.
No, the Great *Vowel* Shift has to do with English vowels, not with
Latin consonants.
--
Cingar

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That's very enlightening. Thanks!
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On Jul 23, 2007, Cingar wrote:
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Thanks again!
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