Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: grammatical problem

"Mrs Hammer saw him SWIM by ... The Lears heard him SPLASHING past the open
windows of their living-room."
In this sentence, i dont understand the use of "swim" (base form of the
verb) and that of "splashing" (-ing form).
What difference of meaning do these two forms convey ?


I guess the key words here are "saw" in the first sentence, and
"heard" in the second.  Swimming is something that you can see, but
not hear that well.  Splashing is something that you can hear.
Swimming is simply "nuotare" but splashing in this case means that he
was swimming in such a way that he was splashing water and so the
Lears heard him.  The sentences could probably be replaced with:
Mrs. Hammer saw him PASS by
The Lears heard him PASS by their living-room MAKING NOISE
I hope I understood you question
Dave
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 I hope I understood you question
I think you missed this one David. I believe that Vuks was asking for a
distinction in meaning between the use of the infinitive form of a verb and the
gerund form in similar sentences.
swim = nuotare
swimming = nuotando
splash = schizzare
splashing = schizzando
I am not sure how to describe the difference other than to say that the
distinction is probably similar to the difference between the infinitive and
gerund in Italian. Perhaps we should leave this to our resident Italian experts
to discuss, because I am a bit baffled myself by when one should use the gerund
form in Italian. It seems to me Italian speakers use this form less frequently
than English speakers use it.
Ciao,
Ron

 What difference of meaning do these two forms convey ?
Thanks to Ron for correcting me.  I'm not an expert on grammer,
but it seems to me that either form could be used in either case.


 but it seems to me that either form could be used in either case.
<<<Esiste a riguardo una precisa regola grammaticale.
        I verbi di percezione (see, hear, feel, watch, listen to, notice,
observe) possono essere seguiti sia dall'infinito che dal gerundio.
Si usa l 'infinito (senza to) quando l'azione è percepita interamente .
Si usa  la forma -ing quando l'azione è percepita in corso di svolgimento.
Esempio :
I saw  the car crash into a wall (Ho visto tutta la sequenza della macchina
che si schiantava contro il muro)
Jack heard someone singing (Jack ha sentito una persona mentre cantava)
La regola è fatta comunque per essere disattesa.Tutto dipende dalla
percezione di chi parla.
Esempi :
I saw something move (Ho percepito il movimento in generale)
I saw something move(Ho percepito e voluto rimarcare che la cosa era in
corso di svolgimento)
Yours
Sal

<<<Esiste a riguardo una precisa regola grammaticale.
Se posso aggiungere due ultimi particolari all'ottima risposta, la mia
grammatica riferisce che l'uso dell'infinito è preferito in caso di
successione di azioni: ad es. I saw him enter the room, unlock a drawer,
take out a document, photograph it and put it back. Infine, con la forma
passiva si usa ancora l'infinito: He was heard to say that the minister had
been bribed.
Saluti
Arturo

Sal
Yes, I agree that this is the essence of the distinction.
(I assume you meant "moving" in the second example)
In legal terms, the distinction can be important:
"I saw him carry the body to the boat" = I saw the point at which
he reached the boat carrying the body)
"I saw him carrying the body to the boat" = I saw him carrying the
body towards the boat, and I'm assuming that's where he eventually
took it.
Raymot
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observe) possono essere seguiti sia dall'infinito che dal gerundio.
Scusa, me ne accorgo adesso: ma la forma in ing dopo i verbi di percezione
non è un participio? In altre parole, non posso dire:  "I saw his running"
ma sempre "him"; oppure ho sbagliato tutto?
Saluti
Arturo

I certainly did !
Yours
Sal

 been bribed.
<Hai ragione anche la frase sul ministro corrotto č di un pesante , di un
pesante, che ci vuole una bottiglia
di Fernet Branca per buttarla giů.
Grammatiche di tutto il mondo !
Svecchiatevi !
Yours
Sal

 ma sempre "him"; oppure ho sbagliato tutto?
<Il verbo deve essere seguito da un oggetto.
Mi spieghi perchè vorresti dire "Ho visto il suo correre "?
Yours
Sal

Mi spieghi perchè vorresti dire "Ho visto il suo correre "?
Per nessun motivo in più rispetto a quelli per voler dire: "Perdona il mio
telefonarti così presto" ("Forgive my ringing you up so early", ma potrei
trovare anche "me ringing"). Onestamente non riesco a vedere una differenza
sostanziale fra le due ipotesi, che le grammatiche indicano l'una come
participio, l'altra come gerundio. Mi limitavo a chiedere conferma di una
classificazione che mi ha sempre creato dei problemi.
Grazie, saluti
Arturo

 Jack heard someone singing (Jack ha sentito una persona mentre cantava)
Perhaps a precise grammatical rule exists, I don't know, but in practice I
don't think a difference exists (I promise to ask a professional editor about
that in the fullness of time). One can say "the Lears heard him splashing past
the open windows of their livingroom," or one can say "the Lears heard him
splash past the open windows of their livingroom." The effects and feelings are
slightly different but the meaning is the same. One could argue that, in the
second version, he may have made only one splash while in the first version it
is certain that there were several splashes. But don't do it.
Hmmmm, that brings up an interesting other question. Of the following, which
would you say?
The Lears heard him make a splash as he passed the open windows of their
livingroom.
The Lears heard him making a splash as he passed the open windows of their
livingroom.
Ciao,
Ron
USA senso comune

 livingroom.
There is not much of a difference, especially with a verb like splash.
But, I think that in the first case the "make a splash" is stressing
the importance of the splash itself, where as the second case is
stressing the importance of the process of making a splash.  I guess
it's kind of like what Sal sad, it's just a matter of whether you're
talking about the event or what happened during the event.


 Cheers from Contrary of NZ....
I suppose if there's Art for its own sake.....perchč no? It makes life more
interesting.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 The Lears heard him making a splash as he passed the open windows > of their livingroom.
Hmm, neither actually.... ;-) I much prefer the 'splashing past' which
makes a comment on his style of swimming as well as it's noisiness. Ma
numero due é meglio grammaticamente IMNSHO.
Cheers from Contrary of NZ....

 participio, l'altra come gerundio.
Potrebbe c'entrare anche qualcosa come "without MY knowing... " ?
Bye Asoka xx'82
<< However fast you may run, you will never overreach the ball >>

"Ringing" or "ringing you up" are phrases used more in British English. 
If one were to substitute "me" for "my", then one should also include the
preposition "for"..."forgive me for ringing you up so early". I think that
sounds better.  It answers the elliptical question, "forgive you for what?"
In American English, the more common equivalent would be: "Excuse me for
calling so early". "Excuse my calling so early" would be acceptable  but not as
colloquial. 
Ciao Arturo

sounds better.  It answers the elliptical question, "forgive you for what?"
In Australian, "forgive me ringing you ..." is acceptable, but
I prefer the more correct "forgive my ringing ..."
THey mean the same thing.
Raymot
=======
Brisbane
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