Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Tuscan greetings... OT?

Hi all,
I'd like to know some typical Tuscan greetings (friendly ones) to use at a
social event. I never lived in Tuscany, so I haven't come across any. Am I
right in thinking that unlike (some) other regions, dialects are not so
widely used? Or that the dialects are close to standard Italian?
Thanks if you can help.
Should I have asked this in Italian? ;)
At least by copping out and writing in English, I'm more ON TOPIC!
Grazie,
Zz

 At least by copping out and writing in English, I'm more ON TOPIC!
Right!
Bye, FB

 widely used? Or that the dialects are close to standard Italian?
Dialects are widely used even by youngsters in large parts of Italy.
But we may say in very simple words that the Tuscany dialect is actually 
the standard Italian: Italian is the Tuscany dialect.
When you hear Toscani speaking their dialect, you will hear them 
speaking Italian.
P.
-- 
Passo lento, disinvolto e spensierato degli alpini che marciano
cantando sotto le parabole successive e accanite degli shrapnels. 

 The latter, I think.
Ma come fai ad asserire una roba cosi, FB?
Cioe, se capisco bene, tu asserisci che i dialetti italiani sono simili 
all'italiano standard? O che sono pocho usati? Forse a Milano. Ma prova 
a uscire dalle grandi citta, troverai i giovani che parlano in dialetto.


 
He could find a bit difficult understand the drawl ....
:-)
However, when you say bye to someone you often use "bona" for
"buona(notte)".
It could be use also in different part of the day when you go away.
A.
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

a uscire dalle grandi citta, troverai i giovani che parlano in dialetto.
Era IMHO evidente che si riferisse ai dialetti toscani, visto che era
quello l'argomento di discussione.
La frase di Zz "Am I right in thinking that unlike (some) other
regions, dialects are not so widely used? Or that the dialects are
close to standard Italian?" si riferisce ai dialetti toscani (the
dialects).
Sono o non sono i dialetti toscani simili all'italiano? Direi di sì,
almeno alle mi orecchie. Ma potrei sbagliare di grosso, visto che la
mia conoscenza del dialetto è molto approssimativa.
Sebastiano
-- 
No wonder people say "gesundheit" when you say "Tchaikovsky".

 widely used? Or that the dialects are close to standard Italian?
Ovvero: "Ho ragione a dire , al contrario di quanto accade in (alcune)
altre regioni, i dialetti non sono molto usati? O che i dialetti sono
vicini all'italiano standard?
La seconda: i dialetti, *in Toscana*, sono quanto di più simile esista
all'italiano standard. 
Ciao, FB

 vicini all'italiano standard?
Ahhhhhhhhh. Sì, avevo capito male io. Per la fretta, immagino e me ne 
scuso con te e con l'autore del post.
Be', certo, l'italiano standard è il dialetto di Firenze. Ecco perché 
non si sente parlare dialetto a Firenze: peché quel dialetto è 
l'italiano.


 l'italiano.
Ma ckhosa dici?  A Firenze la zhente parla un bell'italiano? 
Piascevole? Seckhondo khquanto ho sentito io, non e' sempre ckhosi'.
-- 
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water"  Ibn Khaldun
My .
mac.com
 address is a spam sink.
If you wish to email me, try alan dot lothian at blueyonder dot co dot uk

 l'italiano.
Quest'affermazione ha bisogno di alcune precisazioni, IMHO ;))
X'Posted to: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese,it.cultura.linguistica.italiano
-- 
http://wiki.news.nic.it/DizionariItCulturaLinguisticaInglese

 Piascevole? Seckhondo khquanto ho sentito io, non e' sempre ckhosi'.
cosa è successo alla tua tastiera??!!?!?!?
avete ragione entrambi credo, ma è comprensibile che ad uno straniero
alcune regole di pronuncia particolari possano essere di difficile
comprensione.
Il toscano però è considerato (con orgoglio, ma solo da loro ;))
all'italiano a tutti gli effetti.
consiglio questo link (credo di un "ngrupparo") per una chiara
spiegazione della differenza tra dialetti e lingue e dell'uso proprio
del termine.
http://www.dejudicibus.it/dizionario/italialang.html

Seckhondo khquanto ho sentito io, non e' sempre ckhosi'.
qualche "agglutinamento" forse, ma l'accentazione vocalica è perfetta (e
completa), e nessuno usa le Z come Bruno Vespa :-P
Ciao
A.
P.S. Firenze non è la Toscana, ci sono enormi differenze già da Prato !


 
http://www.dejudicibus.it/dizionario/italialang.html
mah, ne conoscevo un'altra, più "sociale", se la ritrovo la posto.
A.


 Bye, FB
Thanks... I think. Now I'll go off and read the rest of the thread.

 Buona notte is a new greeting to me. Thanks! When can it be used?
When you take leave, at late night.
Or when you give a good night kiss :)
-- 
http://wiki.news.nic.it/DizionariItCulturaLinguisticaInglese

 Or when you give a good night kiss :)
Was being sarcastic. Obviously, if one is saying good night, it is not a
greeting at all. Apologies for the unnoticed sarcasm!

 by someone who knows of any, needless to say.
That rules me out...
Bye, FB

 greeting at all.
Is a "greeting" something you say only as you meet someone, and not also as
you part from him? If so, what do you call something you usually say when
you part from someone ("Bye", "See you", etc.)?
Bye, FB

 Apologies for the unnoticed sarcasm!
No probl =)
-- 
http://wiki.news.nic.it/DizionariItCulturaLinguisticaInglese

 you part from someone ("Bye", "See you", etc.)?
A farewell (if you have to call it anything).
Zz

 That rules me out...
Yes. Please be quiet in future! LOL
:)
Zz

 Yes. Please be quiet in future! LOL
Is there something implied here, too? I'm betting there is.
Bye, FB

 Is there something implied here, too? I'm betting there is.
ROFL.
Care to fill in the blanks for me?

 Care to fill in the blanks for me?
I dare not (so?).
Bye, FB

 in other respects, it goes without saying).
I hate to see someone battered around in a condescending way when in fact
they were right in the first place. It is more common to say, in the context
we find here, 'I have never lived in Tuscany.' To say 'I never lived in
Tuscany' is not incorrect, but when I read that first sentence my reaction
was the same as when I read a post written by someone who is not a native
English speaker. That is, it seemed odd, or at least carelessly written. Of
course, we all write carelessly or in shorthand at times, so it's no great
fault. My suspicion is that your note 'boring question' was misinterpreted
as applying to the original post and not to your question about usage, and a
little feather ruffling followed.
Returning to the original question, I'm not sure why 'I have never lived in
Tuscany' sounds more appropriate, but I suspect that it has to do with the
fact that the idea is connected to the present: 'I have never lived in
Tuscany, therefore I do not presently have any knowledge of expressions
particular to that area'. Whether the speaker visited or lived in other
parts of Italy is irrelevant. Whether the speaker visited or lived in Europe
is irrelevant. In fact, there is no implication that someone lived in any
particular place in either case.

 Tuscany' sounds more appropriate
I know it is more appropriate, and so I wondered why Zz had chosen the
simple past. Maybe - I thought - there's a slight difference...
I gather there's actually no difference (and, God willing, I shan't change
my mind): present perfect is spot-on and simple past is less so, but
acceptable.
Bye, FB

 particular place in either case.
What if one was talking to self while writing, like this?
"When I was in Italy I spent a whole year in Rome and  a couple of
months in Milan , but... " 
"I never lived in Tuscany."
-- 
http://wiki.news.nic.it/DizionariItCulturaLinguisticaInglese

 "I never lived in Tuscany."
Then it's not implied, but written, isn't it? Although I fail to see why one
would bother to write it when one is  talking to oneself.
Taking your question seriously, what you wrote is perfectly fine. You are
speaking about the past and using the simple past, no problem. The point is
that if the phrase appears by itself, 'I never lived in Tuscany', there is
no inherent implication of living elsewhere in Italy.

 acceptable.
In questo caso, in questo contesto, sono d'accordo. Puoi chiedere, perché
non si dice 'I never lived in Tuscany, so I never came across any' invece di
'I never lived in Tuscany, so I haven't come across any'? Infatti,
preferisco la prima frase.

 no inherent implication of living elsewhere in Italy.
No, the inherent implication is that one is talking about the past! Wake-up
bozo!
If anything is annoying, it is you telling FB and other what I was thinking!
Jeez (I can't find my knees)...
LOL
:)

 particular place in either case.
Exactly. The only implication is the time frame. The Simple Past is in the
past, the Present Perfect is connected to now. Yawn.
Zzzzzzzzzz

 acceptable.
The Present Perfect is correct in situations connected with the present (up
to now). In American English and some other English dialects, the Simple
Past is often used in place of this. This kind of misuse is generally
acceptable although it loses clarity of meaning and can sound lazy. It would
stand out in many formal / educated / professional situations (IMO).
Ciao,
Zz

 Tut tut.
We'll let each person decide from the long history of posts who to trust for
accurate information. I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong. This is not
an instance when it's required. I really do wish you a "good day" and am
only interested in giving our Italian friends here the best and most
balanced information that I can provide.

 accurate information. I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong.
And in one particular case I was wrong. It's 'whom' to trust. ;)

Tony the ice man

And in another it is *admitting* not admiting.
Both who and whom are acceptable.
I'll keep quiet now.

 I'll keep quiet now.
Not necessary.

 stand out in many formal / educated / professional situations (IMO).
But *you* used it, and you told me you did for a reason. 
Bye, FB

 preferisco la prima frase.
Ah, la frase con due simple past non ti suona male? Allora, forse, il mio
ragionamento è possibile, no? 
"(When I was in Italy) I never lived in Tuscany, so I never came across
any". Giusto, no?
Quindi quello che ti suona male non è tanto il simple past nella prima
frase ma il fatto che Zz abbia mischiato simple past e present perfect in
due frasi una di seguito all'altra. Right?
Bye, FB



A (little) squabble, and I have (almost) nothing to do with it! Yahooooo!
Bye, FB

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:46:19 GMT, FB wrote:
Scusami, avrei dovuto scrivere in inglese? Ho scritto in italiano, e pure
malissimo.
Ciao, FB

 due frasi una di seguito all'altra. Right?
Aggiunge al fatto che la frase č contorta ma ti consiglio scrivere sempre in
casi come quello sopra 'I've never lived in Tuscany', o invece 'when I was
in Italy I never lived in Tuscany'.

> A (little) squabble, and I have (almost) nothing to do with it! Yahooooo!
I'm not feeling the least bit squabbalish... only perceptive. ;)

 in Italy I never lived in Tuscany'.
Estremamente chiaro! 
Questo va negli almanacchi. (faccina sorridente) Quando si tratta di
grammatica sei uno dei conversatori piů *resistenti* e chiari.
Ciao, FB

 widely used? Or that the dialects are close to standard Italian?
I was thinking that, after all, you haven't got any useful answers. You
might want to ask it.cultura.linguistica.italiano as well (you can write in
English).
Bye, FB

 Quest'affermazione ha bisogno di alcune precisazioni, IMHO ;))
E djà, ormai l'ithaliano di Firènze si sènte sèmpre meno anhe in Firènze
stéssa. Pare he l'ithaliano vero lo stìano fascèndo a Mmilano... :)

 A (little) squabble, and I have (almost) nothing to do with it! Yahooooo!
That wouldn't be corporate endorsement now FB, would it?

 But *you* used it, and you told me you did for a reason.
Yes. I used the Present Simple because it was the correct tense for what I
was trying to say. I did not / would not / will not use it in place of the
Present Perfect where the Present Perfect is actually the correct tense in
English... unless I am extremely tired, drunk and careless (all at the same
time). ;)
Zz

 I'm not feeling the least bit squabbalish... only perceptive. ;)
Would that be squabblish? Fess up!

Yuk. I haven't the inclination to read Ttim's 19/3 posts...
Are you calling yourself Ice Man after the iconic character from Top Gun?
You know what Tarantino has to say about that! Hmm.

 was trying to say.
Well, I don't think Tony is wrong when he says a present perfect would have
been more appropriate *, but I really don't want to have my first virtual
black eye so, you know what?, I think I'll pass over this. (witty face)
* Enrico and I have guessed what you meant by using the simple past, yes,
but, for my part at least, only because we *had* to find a motivation.
Bye, FB

 but, for my part at least, only because we *had* to find a motivation.
It really wasn't necessary to search for this. The meaning was never in
doubt, and (as we have discussed) if it were a situation that actually
called for the Present Perfect, still more than half of all English speakers
worldwide would likely substitute in the Simple Past.
Ciao,
Zz

 Would that be squabblish? Fess up!
For Italian readers who might not know, the word 'squabbalish' is just a
word I made up, as a joke, using the suffix '-ish'. The word doesn't exist,
but the '-ish' suffix is added to some nouns to form 'real' adjectives that
mean 'having the characteristics of', 'like', or 'somewhat'. For example,
childish means like a child, babyish means like a baby, mulish means having
the characteristics of a mule (stubborn), and reddish means somewhat red.
With 'real' adjectives formed with '-ish', the spelling maintains the
pronunciation of the base word while adding an additional syllable
contributed by the '-ish' suffix. For example, 'mule', a one-syllable word,
becomes 'mulish', a two-syllable word. If it were written 'muleish' one
would tend to read it as a three-syllable word, and one would tend to soften
pronunciation of the 'u' in the first syllable. Thus, the whole effect would
be lost.
It's just a whimsical observation, but I thought it might interest some
Italian readers.

 Italian readers.
It is interesting. For sure, we only get involved in this NG out of our own
interests (in learning, sharing, helping, socialising, debating...). So, I'm
not meaning to be so heavily disagreeable with you just for the sake of it.
But I'm finding it hard to agree with you, yet again. (LOL) Hopefully
someone else will respond to your spelling and pronunciation guide above.
Ciao,
Zz

 Mount Yourfingeryoufool for ever more. 
I think the same happened for kangaroo. An Englishman asked an Australian:
"What's that animal?", and the Australian answered: "Kangaroo", that is "I
don't know".
Bye, FB

 don't know".
Thanks. And Piglet attests that is grandfather was called Trespassers Will
due to the remnants of an old sign in the forest (Trespassers Will Be
Prosecuted).
Zz

 for Confucius to be talking about confusion!
"When a finger points at the moon, the imbecile looks at the finger". I
cannot believe Pratchett wasn't aware of this sentence.
The other is "He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches". Pratchett will
have changed something, but I remember the "inspiration" from this sentence
by Shaw was evident.
Bye, FB

 Prosecuted).
In Italy, during the fascist era, many babies were called "Firmato" due to 
the end of the edicts: Firmato Mussolini.
:(
-- 
Maria Luisa C - 22/03/04 21.05.27, here.
please, point out my English errors! 

> So childish means childlike now?
No. You're the one who wrote childlike. I wrote 'like a child', as a general
demonstration of how the '-ish' suffix is used. Even if I the intent was to
offer a precise definition (which it wasn't), do you realize that the
connotations of these two are different? I think you do. But to be perfect
honest, I don't think you're interested in being accurate. I think your ego
has been bruised, and you're acting childish (in the 'disapproving' sense of
the word, since there are other senses as well). What you may not realize,
is that the smart readers here will begin to question your integrity more
and more with each of your posts.

 is that the smart readers here will begin to question...
                  ^^^^^^^^^^
ROFL
This reminds me of something. Now what was it? Oh yes:
Flattery will get you nowhere!
Good luck with it.

 by Shaw was evident.
GBS is the man.
:)

 please, point out my English errors!
No errors from you! :)

 > The other is "He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches".
he who isn't able to even teach, makes the consultant!

 he who isn't able to even teach, makes the consultant!
And the pinnacle of incompetence is called a "Guru" - you have been warned!
;)