Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Two thingies

First one. "But" with the meaning of "Only". If I say something like
"I'm but human", does it sound silly? When do you use it?
Second thingy, when native speakers say "it does" in fast speech do they
drop the "t" saying "i(t) does" or I'm fooling myself? (I think I heard
that in AmE, for the record)
Thank you very much indeed and whatever. :)
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
Wang Chi: You ready, Jack?
Jack Burton: I was born ready.

 "I'm but human",
That sounds so humble :)
I would never say, "I'm but a woman", then it sounds degenerating.

 that in AmE, for the record)
The sound of the 't' in 'it' may be subsumed by the sound of the 'd' in 
'does,' but I still hear it. Do you hear the second 't' in 'latte'?

 Do you hear the second 't' in 'latte'?
Italians "hold a second" after the first T. At least that is what my 
Italian teacher told me.

 literary ring to it.
I had some second thoughts about my response on this "first thingie," so 
I did a Google search for "I'm but a human being" and found only 8 
results. Then I did a search for "I'm but human" and I found over 92,000 
results.
Soooo, I guess that I'm not in tune with the majority of English 
speaking humanity on this one. "I'm but human" sounds strange to me. I 
keep reading it as "I'm butt human" but that gets no Google results at all.

 teacher told me.
(clicked too soon)
And what I hear when they speak. So in a way you can hear the second t?
Like in Dutch redden and reden (influences the pronounciation on the 
vowel before). It is the same in Italian? Lato and latto.

 I keep reading it as "I'm butt human" but that gets no Google results at all.
lol

 Italian teacher told me.
Surely your teacher exaggerated. A second is a rather long time. In 
fact, I've yet to hear an Italian, who had something to say, pause for a 
second, mid-sentence, in any situation.
Joking aside, what I was trying to communicate is that, in both the 'it 
does' and 'latte' examples, the sound is there, albeit curtailed.

 mid-sentence, in any situation.
lol. That is so true, they are so talkative! I think they invented 
special words to keep on talking. Like the word "depende" they use it a 
lot, so they can continue the conversation.
Dutch say yes or no, end of story. (also exaggerated of course)

 'does,' but I still hear it. Do you hear the second 't' in 'latte'?
Yes, I hear the second "t" in "latte". "Late" and "latte" have quite
different pronunciation.
By the way, that's a thing I notice often when I hear foreign people
speaking Italian, they seldom say the "doppia".
I guess it's not a simple thing to master.
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If the application that is locked to that proprietary file format won't
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 lot, so they can continue the conversation.
"dipende". :)
And yes, it's true. We like to talk, we seldom *say* something but we
like to keep talking. I think we are afraid that if we stop talking we
could indeed start thinking. :P
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
Her: Honey, you're so cool!
Him: Yeah, God made me cool.
(Comment: ROTFL! What kinda idiot!)

 "dipende". :)
darn English :) thank you for correcting.
I think it is great the way you guys talk, I also think there is a lot 
of humo(u)r amongst you guys. Not only with words, but also the way you 
talk with your hands :). The best is to sit on the spiaggia between 
only Italian people. Hai letto: An Italian education di Tim Parks? 
Questo libro è fantastico :).

 that in AmE, for the record)
You can't hear the "release" of the /t/ because it merges with that of 
the /d/, but there's still its "hold".


 
Yep, an example that always irritate me: in NCIS (the tv show) there is a
character of italian origins with last name "DiNozzo" and everyone (him
included) pronounces it as "dinoso". There is only one exception, FBI agent
Fornell played by Joe Spano which really is of italian orign and knows
better....
G 

 results.
But I agreed with you and your first thought.
"I'm but human" doesn't sound natural.
On the other hand, "I am but human" or "I am but a human being" sounds much 
more acceptable.
My reasoning is that the statement is meant to be poetic, thus allowing for 
the use of "but" in this case, rather than "only." (Which you'll also, hear, 
but notice that "I'm only human," which sounds quite natural, doesn't have 
the same poetic bent that "I'm but [a] human [being]" does.)
Maybe I'm overcomplicating or perseverating (There's your word for today, 
Renee.) but to me, to my ear, the difference is obvious.
-- 
Joey from NY

):

Dont get me started on how badly some Italian Americans pronounce their own 
surnames....
My friend J. Caputo => caPYOOto
Some DeStefanos => distefANo
Esposito => espoZEEto
I can deal with manSEEnee instead of manCHEEni, but not those others...
-- 
Joey from NY


What about Carmine pronounced "carmEYEne"? It took me a while to understand
what it was. Horrible...
G

 Renee.)
noted!


Italian origins are seldom a qualification for good Italian 
pronunciation. For example, I know an Italian American who pronounces 
his own last name, Pignataro, as Pig-nah-Tehr-o. At least most people 
say 'peet-tzah' for pizza.

 
In fact, one of the main issues is "anno" vs. "ano"...

):

I suppose a "felice ano nuovo" would be something to behold.
-- 
Joey from NY

 
LOL! It depends on whom it belongs to, though...

 libro è fantastico :).
I'm afraid I didn't know the book in question. I'll make a point of
reading it. (At first I wrote "to read it", then I changed my mind. I'm
not quite sure why.)
Bye then,
Akira

 LOL! It depends on whom it belongs to, though...
And your sexual orientation too could be an issue here. LOL.
There's a case though where the single consonant is perfectly acceptable
- I may say in topic - "Ferrari". ;)
Bye then,
Akira

 the /d/, but there's still its "hold".
I understand, it seemed in fact odd.
(With the example of "latte" I had an epiphany.)
Bye then,
Akira

 Akira

 a smart move. It seems though foreign people find that amusing. :)
If I may:
We use our bodies a lot to communicate, that's true. I think, it's there, why 
not use it? ...
-- 
Joey from NY

 If I may:

Exactly, that is what I thought as well.
Here is an interesting approach to body languages and space:
Body language and space
Interpersonal space refers to the psychological "bubble" that we can 
imagine exists when someone is standing too close to us. Research has 
revealed that there are four different zones of interpersonal space. 
The first zone is called intimate distance and ranges from touching to 
about eighteen inches (46 cm) apart. Intimate distance is the space 
around us that we reserve for lovers, children, as well as close family 
members and friends. The second zone is called personal distance and 
begins about an arm's length away; starting around eighteen inches (46 
cm) from our person and ending about four feet (122 cm) away. We use 
personal distance in conversations with friends, to chat with 
associates, and in group discussions. The third zone of interpersonal 
space is called social distance and is the area that ranges from four 
to eight feet (1.2 m - 2.4 m) away from you. Social distance is 
reserved for strangers, newly formed groups, and new acquaintances. The 
fourth identified zone of space is public distance and includes 
anything more than eight feet (2.4 m) away from you. This zone is used 
for speeches, lectures, and theater; essentially, public distance is 
that range reserved for larger audiences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_language#Body_language_and_space
A next question could be: do Italians use body language to create a 
wider space around them. :)

 not use it? ...
Now that you mention it my sentence was indeed "weird" but it came out
that way. I have to ask about the "why don't use it?" though, it seemed
so right at moment and it still if I'm honest. Why is it wrong?
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
Godspeed you.

 something, means: insist upon; make a special effort.
Yes, but "to make a point of doing something" in this context means "I'm
going to be sure of doing it sometime in the future."(*)
<paste>
make a point of doing something
to be certain to do something that you think is important She makes a
point of sending thank-you notes.
See also: make, point
Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms Copyright © Cambridge University
Press 2006. Reproduced with permission.
</paste>
What I meant about "to read it" was: "of reading it" vs "to read it",
same thing happened with "I'm going to be sure of doing it" vs "I'm
going to be sure to do it". I have always doubts on this matter.
-- 
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As usual, FreeBSD proved to be a rock-solid platform enabling us to
deliver content without incident.
(Peter Losher)

 wider space around them. :)
I don't think so. It's only a way to better communicate with other
people, a way to store more data in the same time slot.
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
If a prior visits your world... leave.

 people, a way to store more data in the same time slot.
lol, that is what I thought too. Doing anything to be able to talk more 
is a plus! Are there discussion lessons at Italian school?

 going to be sure to do it". I have always doubts on this matter
This is what I think:
When it is: "making a point of" reading it will follow, when it would 
be "making a point to" read it will follow.
I think it is depending on the preposition.
The correct phrase is "making a point of". I tried to find a rule or 
something, so far no luck.
When you write English you use a grammar book, or do you write "from 
your guts"?

 your guts"?
The latter, without a shadow of doubt. :)
-- 
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Everybody! Everybody! Let's get into it! Get stupid, Get retarded! Get
retarded! Get retarded!
(Black Eyed Peas)

 is a plus! Are there discussion lessons at Italian school?
There's no need it's embedded. :P
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
Everybody! Everybody! Let's get into it! Get stupid, Get retarded! Get



A few years ago the Queen of England in a public speach, talking about the
vary bad year that just ended, called it "annus horribilis" but of course
pronounced it "anus horibilis"..... 
G

 The latter, without a shadow of doubt. :)
anche io, senza dizionario o grammatica :)

 There's no need it's embedded. :P
lol!

):

It would have been fine if you said "I think, it's there; why don't we use 
it.?" Without a subject, it's more natural to use the infinitive. Probably 
the same in Italian...?
-- 
Joey from NY

 bathing suits into dry ones and all.
Le mamme italiane viziano i bambini.
Se vedi il film di Nanni Moretti "Palombella rossa" c'è una
scena che lo mostra in modo straordinario, quando i bambini
escono dalla piscina e tutte le mamme gli asciugano i capelli.
Orrore!
:-)
-- 
"I'm a practicing heterosexual, although bisexuality immediately
doubles your chances for a date on Saturday night."
                -- Woody Allen

 create a wider space around them. :)
Let's not forget these distances change with customs and
culture: American distances are greater than other ones (like
food rations...)
-- 
"It is computed that eleven thousand persons have at several
times suffered death, rather than submit to break their eggs at
the smaller end."
                -- Jonathan Swift, Gulliver's Travels.

 the same in Italian...?
I usually make am effort to think in English. "I switch mode", so to
speak. I try anyway. :)
In Italian I would've said: "E' li', perche' non usarlo?"
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't
have fucked with? ... That's me.
Walt Kowalski

 anche io, senza dizionario o grammatica :)
Toglimi una curiosita', tu che hai studiato sia l'italiano che l'inglese
da non madre lingua. Quale dei due e' piu' difficile per comprensione e
per utilizzo?
Poi ti dico cosa immaginavo io.
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
When the thunder calls you, from the mountain's high, it's time to
spread your wings and fly.
East 17

 Poi ti dico cosa immaginavo io.
Sai, Inglese se vede e se senta ovunque, non italiano, force quando si 
parla di una pizza. La lingua Inglese ho imparato quando era più 
giovane, allora è molto più facile.
You know, English you hear and see everywhere, Italian not at all, or 
it's all about a pizza. In addition, English I learned at younger age, 
first at school, then it is much easier. :) Later on I started 
communicating with people on the Internet and in "real" life, that 
improved my English. Because of my work, family matters etc. I do not 
have the time to study Italian like I would and should. But I am 
determined; I decided to learn it, well I will eventually. "With 
falling and standing up" (translating a Dutch saying directly).
In a year our youngest will be out of the house studying, so that will 
give me more time to go to Italy and do some courses. In the meantime I 
do courses here, in NL, but it goes slow because of the grammar, which 
is not really my thing as you might have noticed :). The Italian 
language is full of surprises and exeptions, that doesn't make it easy, 
but sure is a challenge. I have to hear a language, then it goes fast. 
I do learn a lot from you guys (and dolls), for which I am very 
grateful.

 food rations...)
I think you meant food portions, lol

 Le mamme italiane viziano i bambini.
I learned this joke when I worked at a Jewish hospital in Boston.
Q. What's the difference between an Italian mother and a Jewish mother?
A. The Italian mother says "Eat your chicken soup or I'll kill you!" The 
Jewish mother says "Eat your chicken soup or I'll kill myself!"
(The joke might hinge on American cultural elements: Jewish guilt; chicken 
soup being a cure-all and common to both Italian and Jewish cultures as a 
staple.)
-- 
Joey from NY

 first at school, then it is much easier
"... so (or 'therefore', more formally) it's much easier."
-- 
Joey from NY

 staple.)
Just hoping that the soup itself doesn't kill anybody. Not sure which 
culture to add to that remark :)

 "... so (or 'therefore', more formally) it's much easier."
True, that is much better in written language. You  believe it is right 
to say it in the spoken language?

):

In your comment
"In addition, English I learned at younger age, 
first at school, then it is much easier."
"then" isn't correct, which is what I was pointing out. "So" would be normal 
in spoken English.
You could say 'therefore' as well, but it's more formal sounding.
-- 
Joey from NY

):

On the contrary, chicken soup will cure anything, from the common cold to 
< c a n c e r > (which you must always say in a whisper.)
-- 
Joey from NY

 < c a n c e r > (which you must always say in a whisper.)
oh, the C-word.........
In Dutch it would be the K-word (Kanker).
I still wonder why it is a sort of a taboo to say it out loud (for some 
that is). It is such a common disease.

):

Know what? I just realized you might have meant "then = at that time" rather 
than "then = so." 
If you had written "then it's much easier" I wouldn't have inferred you meant 
"so it's much easier."
Never mind.... I'm getting myself all balled up now.
-- 
Joey from NY

 Never mind.... I'm getting myself all balled up now.
It's ok, you can be as you are :)
Indeed I meant at that time, "so" was meant more like "thus".

):

Ah, okay, so my latest supposition was correct.
So there should have been a period to end the first 'sentence,' and a comma 
after "Then."
"In addition, English I learned at younger age, 
first at school. Then, it is much easier."
-- 
Joey from NY

 Ah, okay, so my latest supposition was correct.
I really hope, now that you have solved the problem, you can sleep well 
:)
thank you.

 Italian and Jewish cultures as a staple.)
As you remarked there is a subtle difference in the way to force
soup-eating or anything else.
The "Italian" way is by an external menace (you are all right
but the Power does force you to behave properly), the "Jewish"
way is by an inner constriction (your bad behaviour could mean
your loved one's pain), we call it a "ricatto morale" (that one
used by hunger-strikers like good old Marco Pannella).
-- 
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. 
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
    -- George Bernard Shaw

 do learn a lot from you guys (and dolls), for which I am very grateful.
If you have trouble with idioms or something feel free to ask, I'll be
glad to help. My email is real.
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
Aeryn: Fun? How am I to have fun?
John: Well I don't know how you're supposed to have fun - but this is
fun! This is "Top Gun"! This is the need for speed - admit it you like
this stuff.
Aeryn: I have no need for speed.

 glad to help. My email is real.
Thanks so much, will drop you a note.

 can be tricky, i.e the past simple isn't simple at all :)
I don't know I've never studied it. :P
(And I'm afraid it shows too. LOL)
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history.
The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext
is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what
was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept
your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions.
Frank Zappa

 (And I'm afraid it shows too. LOL)
Your English is outstanding! You studied it in Italy, or went abroad to 
study?

 I learned this joke when I worked at a Jewish *hospital* in Boston.
Is working there different from other hospitals?

 
Interesting question. It was consistently ranked among the top 10 hospitals 
in the US for many years. It was also the best place I've ever worked in, 
meaning every other job since then has been a bitter disappointment.
Other than that, no: it treated everyone, not just Jews. In the late '70s 
there was in influx of Russian Jewish patients, so the hospital offered a 
medical Russian course to all its employees. Only six of us signed up for it, 
but I 'learned to say such valuable things as "Do you have your blue card?" 
and "Don't worry: the doctor will be here shortly." and "Unfortunately, you 
/need to be hospitalized/ or /are pregnant/." (The last one was a joke 
sentence we constructed, using our new-found vocabulary.
Such phrases don't win over new friends at parties, but it was a valuable 
experience for us all.
-- 
Joey from NY

 meaning every other job since then has been a bitter disappointment.
I believe that if you are able to construct new sentences from only a 
few, new taught sentences you do great!
You worked as a male nurse there? (We have a special word for a male 
nurse in Dutch (broeder), not in English I think).
Some jokes are only for insiders.

):

A male nurse is a male nurse here, but I didn't work in that capacity. At 
that time I was Assistant Director of Admitting. Not the first or the last 
position I held during my 15-year tenure there.
-- 
Joey from NY

 position I held during my 15-year tenure there.
you must have admitted many persons then :)


I learned it watching movies and reading books in my spare time. :)
-- 
Take care now, bye bye then,
Sam staring at the DHD:
"Amazing. This is what was missing from the dig at Giza. This is how
they controlled it. It took us 15 years and three supercomputers to
MacGyver a system for the gate on Earth."