Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: 2 frasi e ausiliari

Studiando inglese, mi sono imbattuto in 2 frasi:
1) I have come
2) He was given
le cui traduzioni sono:
Io sono venuto
Egli ha ricevuto
Mi trovo quindi che gli ausiliari sono esattamente l'opposto rispetto alla 
lingua italiana.
La mia domanda è la seguente:
c'è qualche regola che bisogna conoscere per utilizzare in modo corretto gli 
ausiliari oppure devo ricordare a memoria l'associazione tra l'aulisiario e 
il main verb? 

 il main verb? 
No, devi imparare tempi e modi verbali. La seconda frase č la passivo.

 tra l'aulisiario e il main verb? 
"He was given" e` una frase passiva.
Antonio

 La seconda e` "Egli e` stato dato".
Some English verbs take two objects so you can have two passive forms, 
but that's not true in Italian. Your sentence might be completed this way:
"Egli è stato dato per disperso"
but it means something completely different.
If you want you can say "Gli è stato dato il permesso" but "gli" is "to 
him" then the sentence is still active.
BTW, since I started studying English, my Italian has got slightly 
worse. For instance, I sometimes say "La gente sono [...]" (of course 
only in complex sentences). I hope it's only a transient phase!
Kiuhnm

 "He was given" e` una frase passiva.
Se io avessi dovuto tradurre "he was given" avrei scritto "egli è stato 
dato".
E' giusto, la frase è passiva..

 only in complex sentences). I hope it's only a transient phase!
No, it's permanent. At least you aren't saying "le gente sono" :-)
Antonio

 missing something obvious.
Non so se possono essere definite come due forme passive diverse, ma forse si riferiva ai casi come:
"He was given the book"
"The book was given to him"
In italiano la prima frase sarebbe impossibile: "Egli fu dato il libro"...


prova a sostituire "egli" con  "gli", e tutto diventa più semplice :)
masgar

 prova a sostituire "egli" con  "gli", e tutto diventa più semplice :)
Ovviamente... ma "gli" è complemento di termine, mentre "egli" è soggetto... cambia praticamente tutto. 

 missing something obvious.
He was given to the Imperial soldiers.
He was given a bike.


The /English/ sentence is passive. The Italian one is not.
Kiuhnm

 No, it's permanent. At least you aren't saying "le gente sono" :-)
What a relief :-(
Kiuhnm

 now. 
(2) is (still operating under the conditions of * :-))
   "Il permesso gli e` stato dato"
(1) I'll have to come back to later on ...
Antonio

    "Il permesso gli e` stato dato"
Nope. You've just rearranged the words. Those two Italian sentences are 
equivalent.
Replace "il permesso" with "i permessi" and you'll see that 'Gli' cannot 
be the subject of the (1).
Kiuhnm

'Gli' cannot  be the subject of the (1).
I realised that I'd just switched the word order, I just thought that it 
better matched (2) in every way. But actually:
 He was given the book     -> Gli e` stato dato il libro.
 The book was given to him -> Il libro e` stato dato a lui
Throwing them into the plural works for me too.
Have I cheated by using a disjunctive pronoun? Would
it be better to not drag
 "To him was given a book" 
into the conversation at this stage?
Antonio

Scusatemi per quest'altra domanda stupida:
"io sono andato" č "I'm gone" oppure "I've gone"
Ve lo chiedo perchč ho trovato la frase "se io fossi andato" come "if I had 
come".
Quali sono i casi in cui l'ausiliare č il verbo avere oltra al verbo "to be" 
e "to come"?

 "to be" e "to come"?
L'inglese usa "have" come ausiliare per il "present perfect".
Antonio

 L'inglese usa "have" come ausiliare per il "present perfect".
Ok. Quindi tutti i verbi composti dal "soggetto + ausiliare presente + 
participio passato" utilizzano come ausiliare il verbo Have.
ti ringrazio per la risposta ma sto facendo un riepilogo generale per 
memorizzare al meglio le regole grammaticali nella mia testa. 

 The book was given to him -> Il libro e` stato dato a lui
In Italian "gli" equals to "a lui"; and the both of them are not subjects in the sentences above. The subject 
is "il libro". 

 Throwing them into the plural works for me too.
Have you tried it?
Let's try it right now.
Consider
"Gli è stato dato il libro"
What is the subject?
Let's change "libro" into "libri":
"Gli sono stati dati i libri"
You see? The verb has changed so "libri" must be the subject of the 
sentence.
On the other hand, if we change "Gli" into "mi" (a me) or "loro" (a 
loro), the verb doesn't change, therefore "Gli" cannot possibly be the 
subject:
"Mi è stato dato il libro"
"E' stato dato loro il libro"
BEWARE:
The SVO form is mandatory in English (inversions aside) but not in Italian.
You cannot determine the function of a word just by looking at its position.
Compare:
"E' stato dato loro IL LIBRO"
"IL LIBRO è stato dato a loro"
"E' stato dato IL LIBRO a loro e il quaderno agli altri"
In conclusion:
*English*
1) He gave her the apple    [ACTIVE]
    S   V   IO     DO
2) She was given the apple by him    [PASSIVE 1]
    S      V         DO
3) The apple was given to her by him    [PASSIVE 2]
        S         V       IO
*Italian*
1) Egli le diede la mela     [ACTIVE]
     S   IO   V     DO
2) >>>> N/A <<<<
3) La mela le fu data da lui.    [PASSIVE]
       S    IO     V
    or, slightly rephrased,
    La mela fu data a lei da lui.
       S       V     IO
Kiuhnm

 at its position. Compare:
I didn't. Obviously we're misunderstanding each other somehow.
Maybe the passive voice in Italian isn't exactly the same as the passive 
voice in English.
Antonio

 wordier, but that's the gist of it that I remember.
It doesn't make sense: 'being subject' and 'being object' are mutually 
exclusive.
Simply put, if a sentence is passive then you can ask "By whom?".
Examples:
In English
- I gave him the apple (active)
- I was given the apple (passive)
   By whom?
- The apple was given to him (passive)
   By whom?
In Italian
- "Il libro č stato dato a lui". (passive)
   Da chi?
- Gli ho datto il libro (active)
But now tell me something: what's wrong with the scheme I wrote some 
post ago?
It couldn't be more clear and exhaustive.
Here it is again:


 It couldn't be more clear and exhaustive.
Indeed. But not necessarily correct!
I'll wander through Blackwells soon and see if I can pick up a decent 
grammar book just to ease my mind. Google Books cannot seem to find 
anything beyond the 1870s.
Antonio

 anything beyond the 1870s.
You can find what I'm saying on any grammar, for instance:
_Grammar and Vocabulary for Cambridge Advanced & Proficiency_
2 VERBS WITH TWO OBJECTS
Verbs that have two objects (usually a person and a thing) in the active 
usually have two passive forms because either of the objects can become 
the new subject:
   They gave the award to an unknown actress.
   (= active)
   The award was given to an unknown actress.
   (= passive)
   An unknown actress was given the award.
   (= passive)
Kiuhnm

> 3) The apple was given her by him
                  S         V          IO       Agent
(the DO has become the S , the S. becoming the Agent) .
In Italian , or French , only the Direct Object of the active verb can 
become the Subject of the passive verb .
Mike