Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: For its penance

Dear All,
please help:
"Death had come here unbidden, and, for *its* penance, the block mourned in
silence."
Questa sarebbe la mia traduzione:
"La morte si era presentata senza invito, e, per castigarla, il caseggiato
piangeva in silenzio."
Ho bene interpretato quell'*its*?
TIA
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 Ho bene interpretato quell'*its*?
E' molto più probabile che "its" si riferisce a "block". Sei sicura che
si tratti di un caseggiato?
 
-- 
Mary

 Ho bene interpretato quell'*its*?
Non ne ho idea : ))))
Però c'è una facile via di uscita:
"La morte si era presentata senza invito e, per penitenza, il 
caseggiato piangeva in silenzio."
saluti,
Peltio
e la testa tagliata di un toro.
-- 
Invalid address in reply-to. Crafty demunging required to mail me.
(Hint: use peltio at despammed dot com)

 si tratti di un caseggiato?
Che si tratti di una morte per decapitazione?
saluti,
Peltio


 E' molto più probabile che "its" si riferisce a "block". 
A proposito: quando la Morte, "Death", è personificata, prende un
genere maschile o femminile, o resta di genere neutro?
Leggo per esempio...
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:9VdcAmxzhHEJ:columns.ink19.com/flashfictions/deathHerSubstitute.html
Death and Her Substitute
At a junior college in South central Kansas there is an introductory
course taught by Death. The course, Basics in Animal Husbandry, is
transferable to most major Universities, except for a few small
liberal arts colleges who are skeptical of Death's academic
qualifications. At least once, but usually two or three times, during
every semester, Death would be absent from class. In her place was
always the same man, who simply announced himself as Death's
Substitute. He spoke with a strong southern accent, was very
overweight, and told stories about his wacky shopping mishaps at
discount stores to highlight his lessons. The next day Death would be
back in class, excusing her absence because of some cold or flu. Then
the class would laugh, to which Death would respond with a slight
smile, because we had all seen the mornings news about some plane
crash or earthquake, and knew what she'd really been up to.
[...]
Ma anche...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04617a.htm
The first victim was usually the pope or the emperor. The invitation
is not regarded with favour and various reasons are given for
declining it, but these are found insufficient and finally death leads
away his victim.
[...]

 genere maschile o femminile, o resta di genere neutro?
"Nor shall death brag that thou wonderest in his shade"
ma Serpieri, che ha annotato il volume dei Sonetti che possiedo, dice, se
ben ricordo, che non è comune al di fuori della poesia.
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
I sometimes get the feeling that those who teach the language know less
about it than anybody.
(Don Aitken on alt.usage.english)

 genere maschile o femminile, o resta di genere neutro?
Normalmente si usa "it".
-- 
Mary



Sono d'accordo, non è la morte che fa la penitenza. 

 (Don Aitken on alt.usage.english)
(Try alt.medicaladvice , Don)

 genere maschile o femminile, o resta di genere neutro?
Normalmente neutro, a volte maschile.
"Death", nei libri di Pratchett, è un "maschio" e "parla maiuscolo"
(THERE'S NO JUSTICE. THERE'S JUST US) ma non ricordo il pronome usato per
descriverlo. Credo "he".
Sebastiano

 (Try alt.medicaladvice , Don)
I think that feeling---which I, too, sometimes have---is due to the
particular hatefulness of ignorance and denseness in teachers: I'm often
amazed at how much of the nonsense pupils have been taught in Italy has
also been taught in the UK and in Britain; such as ", and" is wrong.
Masses of students here have been told that "sé stesso" must be written
without an accent; that "molto migliore" is a mistake ("much better":
*unbelievable*, isn't it?), that "se+conditional" ("if + conditional") is
incorrect---preposterous: heaps of sentences *require* "if+conditional"
(indirect questions, for starts). Etc. etc. It is indisputable that
teachers themselves have originated many of the aforementioned
legends---mostly because other people don't care, of course. I think one
or more generations of teachers have deprived educated people of the
natural and positive confidence and assurance our ancestors used to have:
Shakespeare, Dante etc.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Enjoying yourself, Elfine?"
"It's going to be such fun!"
"No, it's going to be amusing or diverting, not such fun, darling."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

 piangeva in silenzio."
"its penance" non si riferisce alle punizioni che la morte ha portato al 
caseggiato?
"La morte si era presentata senza invito, e, per le pene inferte, il 
caseggiato piangeva in silenzio"
Ho detto una bischerata? :-D
-- 
L'organizzazione di una burocrazia č molto simile a una cloaca: i pezzi 
piů grossi emergono sempre.


I just thought 'anybody' was a trifle overstated - but I mustn't end the 
year on a contentious note ; plenty of time for that next year !
Mike 

 Ho detto una bischerata? :-D
Allora siamo in due!
-- 
Enrico C
"O ciechi, el tanto affaticar che giova? Tutti tornate a la gran madre
antica, e 'l vostro nome a pena si ritrova". (Petrarca, I trionfi)


But 'penance'='penitenza' , not 'punizioni' (or 'penalty') ; a penance is 
either self-imposed , or prescribed by a priest (or metaphorical equivalent) 
, as atonement for confessed guilt . As Mary said , 'its' can only refer to 
'the block' (you can't do anyone else's penance !) , and the second half of 
the sentence has no obvious connection with the first - if la morte si era 
presentata senza invito , then the block can't (presumably) feel any 
responsibility for its coming .
The answer may be in the context , which may explain the guilty deed which 
the block is expiating by its silent mourning ; but my own feeling is that 
this is another example of Anna's speciality - translating writers with an 
uncertain grasp of their own language .
Even if the block was to blame for death's coming , the penance seems 
remarkably lenient : 'Father , I have killed a man!' - 'My son , you must 
mourn his death.'  Maybe it was normally a very noisy block , and keeping 
quiet was the penance .
Mike

 responsibility for its coming .
Io avevo trovato questo:
http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=punishment
Tra i sinonimi di punishment c'č anche penance, ma non so se la mia 
interpretazione č corretta, di sicuro non sono un esperto di inglese.


 si tratti di un caseggiato?
Sì, è un caseggiato, in cui è stato commesso un omicidio.
E sì, credo che *its* si riferisca a *block*. 
Grazie a tutti, mi scuso se oggi non ho il tempo di commentare, mediterò a
fondo sui vostri generosi contributi! :)
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 wrote in message
news:1bpzuklmo9q1q.lfrstxnwdxd5$.dlg@40tude.net...

I think there is some confusion here between the UK use of "block",
and the American use of "block".
In American English, "block" does not refer to a "caseggiato" or
"block of flats". It has a much broader meaning here. A "block" is the
city street you live on. The "block" is the street with all its
buildings and stores, etc. This is much different from a "block of
flats". A "block" is almost a neighborhood. A block may contain
stores, a park, and apartment buildings.
Note the uses of "block" here:
http://www.20thcenturywomen.com/sikorski2.html
http://www.smrt-tv.com/v1-08/feature_lando.html
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/south_philly/11145192.htm
http://dragon.sleepdeprived.ca/songbook/songs4/S4_75.htm
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/fsahtml/fachap04.html
And "penance" is not a punishment, it is "penitenza", although some
might consider themselves punished when having to perform a penance.
:>)
Joe from Massachusetts


Beware thesauri (and thesauruses) - many of the 'synonyms' in the link you 
give are about as close as giving England or Calais as equivalents of 
London.
Mike 

 Da dove si inizia?
Piede di porco in tarda notte.
(Tronfio Irlandese su it.cultura.libri)

 
Thanks, I'll pay more attention in the future.
