Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Have I opened a can of worms?

I've just agreed to tutor a friend of mine in Italian (Beginner level, of
course.) My friend (who is of Italian extraction, but like me, never spoke
Italian at home) is marrying a man who is very fond of Italy.
He is also, as luck would have it, well off, financially, and an Italophile
and as a result they have been to Italy several times in the past year and
will most likely return frequently. They are even contemplating buying some
property there, most likely near Rome or Florence, for a 'pied-à-terre'
(what's the Italian for that?)
I will have to construct some basic lessons before starting, and I'm sure
she will want to concentrate on Pronunciation, although she does want to
know the grammar as well. The grammar doesn't bother me as much as the
pronunciation. I've only begun to learn how important the difference is
between open- and closed-E and -O. Unfortunately, not all the grammar books
make this distinction important enough to notate. I will, therefore, rely
on dictionaries for that aspect.
Anyway, I'm bringing this up as a possible introduction to my future
ongoing pleas for "help" in Italian, although this is a NG dedicated to
English.
("Opening a can of worms" means beginning something that turns out to be
disastrous, or at least, distasteful or problematic. The can could contain
caviar; in fact it's full of worms. Apparently, there's no label on the
can. :-)
Spero che vi siate divertito questo sabato... io, no. Non ho niente da fare
(tranne le lezioni che ho appena menzionate... ma no, è troppo difficile
incominciarle... domani...:)
-- 
This is my opinion of modern, colloquial, American English. 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

Joey DoWop Dee ha scritto:

"...che vi siate divertiti.." See? I gotta be careful!


 incominciarle... domani...:)
Oltre a "divertiti", si dovrebbe scrivere "tranne le lezioni che ho appena 
menzionatO". In questo caso "menzionato" è infatti un participio passato, 
non un aggettivo.
Ad ogni modo la differenza fra le vocali aperte o chiuse non è dopotutto 
così importante, e la pronuncia a questi livelli spesso varia da zona a zona 
in Italia.
In bocca al lupo comunque! :-)
-- 
Lorenzo Castelli
E-Mail: 
gcas...@racine.ra.it
 

 In bocca al lupo comunque! :-)
Grazie.


 non un aggettivo.
It's not so simple as that. Joey's version is fine.
Bye, FB
-- 
Nasalization is just a part of life.
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

in Italia.
Agreed.
The real "bete noir" for IFL learners, I think, is Italian grammar.
/To Joey's pupil/
Analyze this, for instance:
"Benché gliel'avessi detto piů volte, continuava a non darmi retta". 
:)
-- 
Enrico C  /testing Pimmy/
Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it
--
X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - 
http://www.newsserver.it

It's not so simple as that. Joey's version is fine.
I think both versions are fine.


 :)
That's pretty straightforward, Enrico. Give us a difficult one. 
"gliel'" is hard for an anglophone to say, but not hard to understand.
Once you know one romance language, you can at least read them all.
Except maybe Romanian: articles at the end of nouns? What next?
Anyway, the first difficulty Americans or Brits have with Italian (or
indeed any other foreign language) is that you have to make Strange
Sounds. The concept of re-shaping the mouth is very difficult. (Hmm.
Not that Italians are any better in this respect.)
My own voice is quite different when I am speaking:
semi-Scots with friends and relatives
English 
Italian
French
In German, I just bark   :)
Be interesting to try this out on a computer voice-recognition system.
I'm pretty sure that Italian Alan wouldn't match with
Glaswegian-dialect Alan. But then, I've had years of practice.
*Not* a question of accent.
Scusatemi la pigrizia di non scrivere in italiano.
-- 
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water"  Ibn Khaldun
My .
mac.com
 address is a spam sink.
If you wish to email me, try atlothian at blueyonder dot co dot uk

 English.
No problem. :)
If you need help, there's the NG. And you have my e-mail. Feel free to use
it.
Sebastiano


More like Enrico C. testing Joey!  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 :)
"Joey's pupil" my a*se... *Joey's* having trouble with that one... (not
really) "Even though I told him (about it) many times, he still wouldn't
listen (to me)."
(NB: A figurative, hopefully not incorrect colloquially, translation.)
I think we'll probably start with sentences like:
Mi piace la pizza.
Ciao, Joey, come stai oggi?
Managgia, ho rotto il tacco (did someone say "tacchino?") della mia scarpa.


 Scusatemi la pigrizia di non scrivere in italiano.
No apologies necessary. This is an English-language newsgroup. I often feel
guilty for writing in English but how else will our cari amici learn? 


Sebapop ha scritto:

Grazie, Seba. (Or as the Spaniards say "Grassy Ass")


non un aggettivo.
Non ne sono sicurissimo, ma non credo che si DOVREBBE. 
Diverse volte ho preso in mano la grammatica proprio per rivedere le
regole per concordare i participi, e per quello che ricordo si puo'
dire in entrambi i modi.

Scusatemi la pigrizia di non scrivere in italiano.
No probl. I don't either ;)
-- 
Enrico C  /testing Pimmy/
Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it
--
FREENET By X-Privat - 
http://www.x-privat.org/infofreenet.php

in the right order in the Italian sentence.
And then, chosing the "imperfetto" tense, that doesn't exist in English...


 Grazie, Seba. (Or as the Spaniards say "Grassy Ass")
Prego, Joey. (ROTFL)
Sebastiano

 Enclitic! I love it.
You'd like Swedish, then.
Bye, FB
-- 
Emily: "I'm going to Europe and I'm going to have a marvellous time. I'm
going to get up at ten and have two glasses of wine at lunch every single
day."
Richard: "Only prostitutes have two glasses of wine at lunch!"
(Gilmore Girls, 501)


Not a can of worms, rather a can of Spaghetti-O's.  :>)
I wonder if Spaghetti-O's are available in Italy?
But seriously--.
When I tutored Italians who were studying English while I was in
Italy, the worst students were the "figli di papa" who were too lazy
to study, and thought that by sitting in a café and engaging in
conversation for a few hours a week would somehow suffice for them to
learn English. The best students were the "bocciati", students
enrolled in school who had flunked their exams, and who were referred
to me by an English friend who taught in a language school. They had
structured textbooks, and had at least some knowledge of the language,
and had developed some good study habits. They always passed their
exams when they took them again at the end of summer. We essentially
reviewed the textbook over the summer, and the time I spent with them
was more a review and a correction of learned pronunciation than an
active exercise in teaching. For every hour they spent with me, they
spent 3 or 4 hours studying at home.
Making up your own lessons doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
I think that if you are going to be tutoring an absolute beginner, the
best approach would be to find an inexpensive, rather short
introductory course on CD, with an accompanying grammar book. The CD
should be progressively structured, and recorded by a native speaker,
in the same way that the Pimsleur CDs are structured. There is no way
that individual unstructured lessons can duplicate the
progressive/repetitive structure of a carefully-designed
course.combining recorded and written lessons. Individual lessons can
only serve as a review of something which has already been learned,
or, at a much later stage, as conversation practice. Much of the
discussion of pronunciation on this newsgroup is a result of students
having studied English for years from non-native speakers, without the
aid of comprehensive audio study aids. You cannot teach pronunciation
with IPA symbols, only with the recorded voice, or rather with the
repetition, repetition, repetition "ad alta voce" of recorded material
in interactive dialogues.
When I was studying Chinese, I learned nothing of the pronunciation in
the classroom. Fortunately the course, which was written by a
professor from Seton Hall University, consisted of a grammar book, a
reader, and extensive progressive audio tapes recorded by native
speakers, which in effect had to be memorized. The classroom teacher,
a native Chinese speaker, was secondary to the tapes.
The problem with teaching a person on a one-to-one basis is that you
become the only person who speaks the language that the student is
studying, and this is not a good idea. Even a native speaker would
have some personal characteristics in his voice and pronunciation
which might not be the best example of the language being studied. I
would certainly never teach Italian to an absolute beginner without
some very comprehensive audio learning aids, even though I consider my
pronunciation to be very close to that of a native speaker.
If a student were not willing to make use of audio CDs, in what is
essentially a self-teaching program, I would have to say that the
student wasn't serious, because language cannot be taught, it can only
be learned by a willing subject. The amount of time spent discussing
subliminal methods on this newsgroup shows that there are many
unrealistic people still looking for the magic bullet which will
infuse them with a language in their sleep, without ever having
exercised their vocal cords or their optical nerves.
If the person you are to be tutoring is serious about the language,
she should be willing to spend at least 2 or 3 hours of study on her
own for every hour she spends with you. [If she is really serious, she
probably won't need you at all. :>(  ] If she thinks this is too much,
then I would say that you are tilting at windmills.
You might get some ideas about study materials here, most of which can
be checked out, at the New York Public Library.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W6D1255D9
Joe from Massachusetts

 Joe from Massachusetts
Thanks, Joe, for the suggestions. I have made up lessons before for others
(not in Italian, but French and Spanish) that I "converted" from existing
textbooks. That way I tailor the lessons to the needs of the student. They
are always repetitive and progressive; I understand the value of that.
As for hearing other speakers, as I mentioned, she has been to Italy more
times this year than I can count, and will likely be going back more often,
as well as speaking it with her husband, the Italophile, and a couple of
other friends.
Anyway, she's not really a beginner, but she wants to start at the
beginning, which will be good for both of us.


 I wonder if Spaghetti-O's are available in Italy?
I don't think so. I've never seen 'em here.
Sebastiano