Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Movies dubbing vs. subtitling

Every now and then I happen to watch some foreign movie with english
subtitles. When the original language of the movie is unknown to me I
just don't care too much, but when I watch an Italian movie with English
subtitles I can't help to notice the massive damage operated by the subtitles.
Dialogues are cut short more often than not, and many times they are translated 
in ways that I find improper, with the final result that the movie loses a lot of its impact.
I infer that the same must then be true for any subtitled movies. On the other hand,
dubbing has a lot of problems of its own , but at least it is much easier on the
audience.
One example, probably extreme but significant, is the famous "Wings Of Desire"
by Wim Wenders, which is thick with generally deep dialogues. I saw it dubbed in italian 
and though I am sure that the dubbing fails to properly convey many of the fine points, 
I found the overall result to be more than decent. Then, I got hold of one original version with
english subtitles and, boy, that is a mess. It loses almost all of its original emotive
tension, to a point that I didn't like it at all...and it is one of my all-times favorites!
I know that, since 90% of the movies are in English, nobody in the US cares to
take the pain of dubbing the foreign 10%, but I wonder what impressions English
speakers get of subtitled foreign movies?
+--
I know you can't speak, I know you can't sign
So cry right here on the dotted line

 English speakers get of subtitled foreign movies?
Personally I prefer subtitles to dubbing because I want to hear the original
tone of voice and inflections. True, when watching an Italian movie subtitled in
English (I saw Pane e Tulipani last night) I sometimes am at a loss to figure
out the connection between the two communications. However, for me, my aural
Italian comprehension isn't adequate for watching movies without subtitles. I
thought that Pane e Tulipani was entertaining but rather commercial and without
much depth to the characters. Was that a result of poor subtitling?
Ciao,
Ron
USA


Yes, listening to the original voices is sure interesting;  for me the subtitles
have an annoying capability to distract me from what is going on on the screen
and I end up concentrating on the writing and missing the movie.
I did not see 'Pane e Tulipani' so I don't know if it is silly or not; the subtitles 
can probably be responsible for some of the shallowness you noticed.
I seem to remember that in Italy it was well received, but that may be 
because the story is more appealing to italian audiences.


 I did not see 'Pane e Tulipani'
It's playing now at the Embarcadero in San Francisco and the Camera3 in San
Jose.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

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I will try San Jose, it's more handy for me; thanks!


gli invio le istruzioni per raggiungerci. hehehe
LOL! La cosa piu' triste e' che molte volte sono orgogliosi delle loro
soluzioni ;) Un giorno o l'altro devo registrare le discussioni tra
l'onnipresente persona mandata dalla RAI a visionare preventivamente
il nostro lavoro (CHE MOLTE VOLTE NON SA UNA PAROLA D'INGLESEEEE!) e
il tapino/la tapina che deve 'giustificare' le sue scelte
linguistiche. Non so se l'ho detto qui o su IFQ, ma un po' di giorni
fa una di queste signore ingioiellate (col cellulare sempre acceso
anche in sala dove lavoriamo) della RAI ha PRETESO che una mia collega
sostituisse un 'Dammi una canna' detto in un contesto colloquiale tra
adolescenti con un 'Dammi della CANNABIS'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! E non ha
voluto sentire ragioni, nonostante l'idiozia della cosa :((((((
Quindi, o ti licenzi o cerchi di salvare il salvabile sperando che non
se ne accorgano ;)))))))))
Fenny

 +--
-++

 se ne accorgano ;)))))))))
:(((((

guardare su Google il thread "RAIsat, Canal Jimmy e altre storie", ....
grazie per l'informazione, sono curioso di vedere che si e' gia' detto
in proposito!


in proposito!
Salve, sono la 'simpatica Fenice', diventata la 'simpatica Fenice
Nera' :-D Se ti interessa l'argomento, sul ng it.fan.startrek, di
recente, si e' avuta una lunghissima discussione proprio in un thread
dal subject: "Doppiaggio o sottotitolazione?" Cerca sempre con
Google.. si e' andati OT dopo un po', ma ci sono molti molti post che
ti possono chiarire le idee su come vanno le cose qui in Italia.
Ciao!
-
Fenice Nera
The Pres §TheCoven§
http://digilander.iol.it/DanjChicca
Fai in modo che nulla possa su di te, ciò su cui tu nulla puoi

 Nera' 
Oops, e dire che non era difficile.
Allora, invece che benritrovata, benrimasta con noi.
Scusa la citazione senza permesso.
Ciao
Giorgio
-- 
Inviato il lun 10 set 2001 23:36:32 CEST da 62.123.0.158 [62.123.0.158]
http://www.neuromante.net/

Nera' :-D ...
Ottima Fenice, simpatica nonche' nera, ti ringrazio per l'informazione
e passo a google senza ulteriori indugi.


Scusa la citazione senza permesso.
Ma figurati! :-) Tecnicamente sono rimasta solo come lurker, 
quindi puoi citare quanto vuoi ^_^
-
BlackFenny
ThePres of §TheCoven§
Sito aggiornato!
http://www.phoenix-rider.it/chiccadanj/

e passo a google senza ulteriori indugi.
Buona lettura, i post sono davvero tanti ;)
Torno al mio lurkaggio.


 wrote in message
9nhcr2$7hgvv$1...@ID-55125.news.dfncis.de...
<< I thought that Pane e Tulipani was entertaining but rather commercial and
without
<> much depth to the characters. Was that a result of poor subtitling?
No, it's the result of your accurate mind. I've surveyed this movie among my
collegues ( 12 women, aged 26-50). It seems that what they most appreciated
is the idea that you can easily get rid  of dull husbands, demanding
children, and a boring life.
Cheers
Tabhall

...

As someone who happens to live in England but speaks four other
European languages, I love English subtitles because they leave me
free to enjoy the dialogues when the movie is spoken in one of a
language in which I am fluent (French, Italian, German and my mother
tongue Rumanian). I don't care about subtitles, I just listen the
dialogue.
Even when the movie is in a language I don't understand, I still enjoy
hearing actors speaking their own language. By watching once a Korean
film, I was  able to learn a few words, the ones they were repeated
more often and appeared as such in subtitles. I much suspect that I
got this ability to watch the subtitles and hear simultanously the
dialogue in my native country, Rumania, where all movies had
subtitles.
I hate dubbing because is completely unnatural. When I see Alberto
Sordi in a movie, I want to hear his voice and his Italian. Same
applies for Depardieu who sounds dreadfully in English and wonderful
in French. Maybe dubbing is acceptable when the actors are unknown and
you have never heard their voices before. But for known European
actors, dubbing is a disaster. I cannot imagine "Il postino or "La
vita e bella" dubbed in English.
Yet is true, for reasons of space or plain incompetence (traduttore
tradittore syndrome) many subtitles are poor. Maybe protesting against
poor translations might bring a change.
Last but not least, subtitles are the best language teachers around
the world. American movies with subtitles were and still are the
cheapest way to learn the accent and correct pronounciation of the
English language. English at the price of ticket movie. What you get
is American English but does it really matter?

is American English but does it really matter?
I have a lot of doubts about it. Often, characters in movies speak with
regional accents and use a language that is strictly tied to the requirements
of the story. If you see an italian movie staged in Sicily, you will hardly hear
(and learn) any proper italian. What makes you think that the words you learned
in that Korean movie are not a dialect?


 compiuto con La Tata (The Nanny).
Sarà certamente tutto vero; onore, però, al merito di alcuni geniali
adattatori di cui purtroppo non conosco i nomi... Mi è capitato recentemente
di "studiare" alcuni classici film dei fratelli Marx e ho visto i film
doppiati in italiano tenendo sott'occhio lo script originale americano. Devo
dire che sono rimasta a bocca aperta per la bravura con cui i dialoghi sono
stati tradotti e adattati. Groucho parlava con la velocità di una
mitragliatrice, Chico aveva un accento particolarissimo e inevitabilmente
alcune invenzioni vanno perdute, ma i film risultano godibilissimi anche in
italiano tanto per il ritmo quanto per la brillantezza di certe soluzioni
traduttorie. E per la straordinaria bravura (pressoché universalmente
riconosciuta) dei nostri doppiatori, aggiungo. Film di quel genere sarebbero
IMHO decisamente pesanti da seguire se sottotitolati, anche per chi conosca
l'inglese più che decentemente.
Quanto all'argomento di questo thread, mi auguro che resti aperto il ventaglio
delle possibilità dell'era del dvd e che si possa decidere se vedere un film
doppiato, sottotitolato o tutt'e due le cose insieme... Il doppiaggio,
comunque, è una gran cosa!
--
Ciao
Anna

 (and learn) any proper italian. 
Well, movies are made for a large audiences which are not always able
to understand dialects, so dialogues are normally delivered in
standard language of that country. It is not economically viable for a
movie to be produced in a non standard language that only few can
understand. How many entirely spoken in dialect movies have you seen
in your life? I don't remember any.

in your life? I don't remember any.
Yes, that is generally true. You can also find mostly or entirely dialectal 
movies, very few of course. They are done for cultural reasons only and are 
obviously not intended for foreign audiences.
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