Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: [help] oscuro Milton...

Salve a tutti,
sto traducendo un libro in cui, tra le altre cose, si parla di John Milton.
Purtroppo però ci sono tre frasi di cui davvero non riesco a venire a capo…
Se qualcuno fosse così gentile da darmi un aiuto mi farebbe davvero felice!
Trascrivo qui di seguito le tre frasi nella loro interezza.
- “Many who pretend to be very profound in the Fathers [i Padri della
Chiesa] ‘have scarce saluted them from the strings, and the titlepage, or to
give’em more, have bin but the Ferrets and Moushunts of an Index”
- “To govern well is to train up a Nation in true wisdom and vertue, and
that which springs from thence magnanimity, (take heed of that) and that
which is our beginning, regeneration, and happiest end, likenes to God, …
this is the true flourishing of a Land”
- “I beseech ye friends, ere the brick-bats flye, resolve me and your
selves, is it blasphemy, or any whit disagreeing from Christian meeknesse,
when as Christ himslefe speaking of unsavory traditions, scruples not to
name the Dunghill and the Jakes, for me to answer a slovenly wincer of a
confutation, that, if he would needs put his foot to such a sweaty service,
the odour of his Sock was like to be neither musk, nor benjamin?”
Un grazie anticipato a chiunque mi risponderà,
Roberto

the odour of his Sock was like to be neither musk, nor benjamin?”
La tua versione attuale com'e'? Ci sono parole particolari che non
conosci, tipo "brick-bats", "would needs", "Jakes"?
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
British Go Association: 
http://www.britgo.org/

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I've come across "I must needs...". "Needs" should be an adverb:
needs [niːdz]
adverb(ial)
1   [preceded or foll by must]  of necessity
example: we must needs go
example: we will go, if needs must 
"If needs must" should be a stock phrase, but what about "we must needs
go"? Would you say such a thing?
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura",
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi's opinion on it.cultura.linguistica -
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 go"? Would you say such a thing?
Only if I were 350 years old. (Which I'm not.) (Not even half that.)
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

La tua versione attuale com'e'?
La mia versione attuale e' un'accozzaglia di parole che se vuoi posto ma non
credo serva a qualcosa...
"Ere the brick-bast flye" l'ho tradotto "prima che volino le frecciate",
"dunghill" con "letamaio", ma non capisco cosa c'entri...
"jakes" non ho idea di cosa significhi,
"wincer" presumo sia forma arcacia di "winner" ma non ne sono certo.
Insomma, morale della favola non ci capisco quasi nulla! :-/
Un saluto,
Roberto

Allora? Nessuno puo' darmi qualche spunto? Nemmeno un aiutino-ino-ino?
Possibile che queste frasi siano intraducibili perfino per dei madrelingua?
:-/
Help...
Roberto

 the odour of his Sock was like to be neither musk, nor benjamin?”
From M-W online I get:
brick·bat
Pronunciation: 'brik-"bat
Function: noun
Etymology: brick + bat (lump, fragment)
1 : a fragment of a hard material (as a brick ); especially : one used as a
missile
2 : an uncomplimentary remark
Beyond that, I'm in a Paradise Lost. :)
I hate to say this, but maybe if we saw the whole piece.... arrggghhh.
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words, but the context and syntax. Here is as far as I can go with it.
Yes, I understand... Translating the whole book has been REALLY laborious...
First of all, thanks for your help!
Could you tell me only what is the literal meaning of:
- moushunts
- likenes (i.e. from "to liken" or archaic form for "likeness"?)
- jakes
- pues (a word I've found in another place in the book)
Thank you so much!
Roberto

 - pues (a word I've found in another place in the book)
This one I have no idea about, other than Spanish "pues"= "then" (which I
doubt.) Can you cite any of the contexts in which you found it?
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 yes, likeness
Thinking again, it could also be "likens", but I think the noun is meant
here (...and happiest end, likeness to God, ...)
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 sto traducendo un libro in cui, tra le altre cose, si parla di John Milton.
Me again. Can you tell me which work of Milton's the quotes come from? Is
it one or many? If not that, the name of the book you are translating?
You've got me going now...... :)
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 - pues (a word I've found in another place in the book)
Perché non ti rivolgi anche ad alt.usage.english? Potrebbero fare una
parafrasi.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Just as I thought. Another test that could have cost us our lives, saved
only by the fact that I am enormously well-bred.
(Murder by Death)

Can you cite any of the contexts in which you found it?
Ok, the sentence is (the author is speaking about the popular ministry of
Henry Smith, and quotes from a contemporary source):
"His Church was so crouded with Auditors, that Persons of good quality
brought their own Pues with them, I mean their legs, to stand there upon in
the Allies".

Ciao, FB
Roberto

You've got me going now...... :)
Ehehehe...
Well, the book I'm translating is "The Rise of Puritanism" by William
Haller.
The first two quotes from Milton are from his 1641 pamphlet "Of
Reformation", the third one (that about dunghills and jakes...) is from his
1642 "Apology Against a Pamphlet call'd A Modest Confutation of the
Animadversions", directed against Bishop Joseph Hall.

 the Allies".
Could it be the same as "pews"?
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 Could it be the same as "pews"?
Yes, definitely. English spelling hasn't been standardized all that long,
which is why you'll see things like "meekenesse" and "likenes" on one page,
and "meekness" and "likeness" on another.
This is definitely "pew", based on the context.
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Could it be the same as "pews"?
Sure it is! Thank you so much!!! :-)
Roberto


I ask you , friends , before all the criticism rains down on me , answer
this question for me , and for yourselves , is it blasphemous or in any way
at odds with Christian meekness  - given that Christ himself  , speaking of
unsavoury traditions , doesn't hesitate to talk of dunghills or jakes
(privies , lavatories , 'bogs')  - for me to to tell a (slovenly wincer of a
confutation) that , if he feels himself obliged to put his foot to such a
sweaty service , then his socks are hardly likely to smell of musk or
benjamin ?
Benjamin was (self-evidently) some sort of perfume ; actually , the source
of the name was an oil (produced from some kind of nut) which was itself
odourless and not subject to going off , for which reason it was used as a
base for perfumes (it also had medical uses) ; John Gerard in his 'Herball'
(1597) says 'The oyle of this fruit (the glans unguentaria) mixed with sweet
odours serveth to perfume gloves and divers other things , and is vulgarly
knowne by the name Oyle of Ben' .
I can't think of an exact equivalent in modern English for 'put his foot to
such a sweaty service' - you can't paraphrase it as , e.g., 'if he feels
bound to become involved in such an unsavoury and disreputable enterprise,
he can hardly expect to come out of it smelling of roses' , since that
destroys the ostensible purpose of the sentence , which is to justify his
reference to sweaty socks ! Maybe the metaphor also has a wider force in the
context of this sentence , but I'm afraid I don't know the passage at all .
Brick-bats (I suppose you know , but every reader may not) is still a common
enough term in modern English , originally meaning bits of bricks
(implicitly used as missiles) , hence any sort of severe or hostile
criticism .
slovenly wincer of a confutation - I'm afraid that's rather got me too .
Since the target is , presumably , the author of a work seeking to confute
some truth Milton holds dear , I suppose a 'wincer of a confutation' is
someone who 'winces a confutation' - but I have to say I can't recall any
instance of such a transitive usage of 'wince', though you could easily
imagine it suggesting some sort of grimacing , cringing , kicked-dog posture
. However , even these brief extracts show that the energetic
adventurousness of Elizabethan prose is still alive around 1650 (?) , and
maybe this was just an ad hoc coining by Milton ?
Don't know if any of this helps at all ; still , as a teacher I'm used to
wasting words . Do let us know if you find all the answers .
Mike


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 wrote in message
news:2pd7rbF...@uni-berlin.de...(cut)
twice ! As if once wasn't enough ! Lord knows how I've managed to do that
(the first appears to be a truncated version) , but sorry , folks!
And sorry again ! (this time both versions in one post)
Mike

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No apologies, please! (Thanks, even, for the duplication. The more I read
it, the more I understand!) You've saved me hours -- weeks, or months, for
that matter -- of possibly futile endeavor to arrive at what you've
provided.
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 wrote in message
news:2pd577F...@uni-berlin.de...
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I wonder if "strings" could possibly be a reference to those fine
ribbons which are incorporated into the bindings of books such as the
Bible, and are used as bookmarks?
Joe from Massachusetts

...
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Mike, you have saved me! I can only thank you so much for your help and say
that your paraphrases are simply perfect... Now I know how to translate
these sentences into a good italian.
Thank you and... God bless you! :-)
Roberto

Don't know if any of this helps at all
ALL of this helps!! :-)
Thank you so much!!
Roberto