Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Esercizio frasi simili

Sto facendo alcuni esercizi tratti da una vecchia edizione (1963) di 
"Advanced English Practice" di Graver.
L'esercizio e' "Distinguishing between Similar Sentences".
Ho alcuni dubbi su queste frasi (dopo le frasi c'e' la mia 
spiegazione/riscrittura):
-------
1a) He recovered from his cold so quickly that he didn't need to visit a 
doctor.
1b) He recovered from his cold so quickly that he needn't have visited a 
doctor.
In 1a) he didn't visit a doctor, because there was no need.
In 1b) he did visit the doctor, even though it was unnecessary.
-------
2a) He couldn't stop saying thank you for all his friends had done.
2b) He couldn't stop to say thank you for all his friends had done.
In 2a) he was saying "thank you" over and over again.
In 2b) he coudn't stop by to thank his friends at all.
-------
3a) The orator made himself generally unpopular with the crowd.
3b) The orator generally made himself unpopular with the crowd.
3a): Most people didn't like the orator.
3b): Most of the time people didn't like the orator.
-------
4a) When John arrived, I was just going to bed.
4b) I was just going to bed, when John arrived.
?Not sure.
-------
5a) Although I said that I was engaged on the Sunday, he went on asking me 
to see him that day.
5b) Although I had said that I was engaged on the Sunday, he went on to ask 
me to see him that day.
(why "on the Sunday" and not "on Sunday"?)
Mmm, not sure...
-------
6a) I will send you the goods direct.
6b) I will send you the good directly.
6a) I will send you the goods personally.
6b) I will send you the goods straighaway.
-------
7a) Undoubtedly, that is the best method to adopt.
7b) No doubt that is the best method to adopt.
7a) There is no doubt that that is the best method to adopt
7b) I think that that is the best method to adopt.
-------
8a) Why don't you try to hire a television set?
8b) Why don't you try hiring a television set?
They mean the same to me...
-------
9a) He certainly doesn't believe in ghosts.
9b) Surely he doesn't believe in ghosts.
9a) It is a certain fact that he doesn't believe in ghosts.
9b) I think that he doesn't believe in ghosts.
-------
10a) The rescue party said there was a slight chance of there being any 
survivors.
10b) The rescue party said there was a slight chance of there being some 
survivors.
They mean very nearly the same, but:
10a) There is a (say) 1% chance that one person has survived
10b) There is a (say) 1% chance that some people have survived
-------
11a) Is there someone in that room?
11b) Is there anyone in that room?
11b) is a genuine question, in 11a) I expect that there is someone in the 
room (?)
-------
12a) She drinks tea with breakfast, as is customary in England
12b) She drinks tea with breakfast, as it is customary in England
Not a clue...
-------
Thanks!
Lorenzo 



 -------
I think:
12a) She doesn't live in England, but she drinks tea with breakfast like 
they do in England.
12b) She is British and drinks tea with breakfast; indeed, it's 
customary in England.
Kiuhnm

 12b) She drinks tea with breakfast, as it is customary in England
These two should have something to do with the 2 meanings of "customary" 
: "habitual" and "conventional", but I don't remember which i s which. :-)
Tabhall

 "habitual" and "conventional", but I don't remember which i s which. :-)
the 'it' makes the difference : a) she drinks tea with breakfast - that's 
what they do in England ; b) she drinks tea with breakfast , *because* 
that's what they do in England .
Mike 


b) rather expresses incredulity - an inability to believe that he actually 
believes in ghosts . It might be used in relation to a stated fact - e.g. a 
friend tells you that a mutual acquaintance voted Labour at the last 
election , and you say ,'Surely he didn't vote for Blair!'  You're not 
saying your friend's a liar , or that you think he's wrong , just expressing 
amazement at what he's telling you .
With b) , you'd normally expect a question or exclamation mark at the end .
Mike 

 I don't really know.
The speaker is recounting a past conversation : the 'the' makes it relative 
to the occasion of the past conversation , not to the present time at which 
he is speaking .
Mike 

 time at which he is speaking .
Thank you.
Then
"We are going here on Sunday"
but
"They said they were going there on the Sunday".
Kiuhnm

 as opposed to the wholehearted endorsement of a) .
Good! You confirm what I suspected.
For instance, I'd say "No doubt ...., but I still think ...".
Kiuhnm

 for a general distinction to be made .
Well, the Longman Dictionary makes a precise distinction:
1) attempt [intransitive and transitive] to attempt to do or get something:
   Let's have a rest and then we'll try again.
try to do something
   He tried to control his voice.
   She was trying not to cry.
2) test/use [transitive] to do or use something for a short while to 
discover if it is suitable, successful, enjoyable etc:
   It works really well - you should try it.
try doing something
   They decided they would try living in America for a while.
   Try logging off and logging on again.
Kiuhnm

 wrote in message 
news:46c19ab0$0$17951$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...

You're quite right - that's the distinction I had in mind , but it's true 
that it's more frequent and standard than I suggested . What I should have 
said was that it's a bit silly to invite anyone to make the distinction on 
the basis of the sentences given , since it's very difficult to imagine a 
context for 'Why don't you try to hire a television set?' in the strictly 
correct sense .
Mike 

 *because* that's what they do in England .
yes, I can feel the difference but I'm still rather unsure as to the 
grammatical reason (if any) that creates this nuance of meaning... what 
is the subject of "is" in a) ?
In any case, I'm happy to read that you think that in a few cases it 
doesn't make much sense to infer different meanings from two sentences 
taken out of context...
Cheers,
Lorenzo


I don't know ! It's one of those oddities that a native speaker doesn't 
notice till a foreigner points it out !
All I can offer by way of further explanation is this :
What we have is two different meanings of 'as' ; in b) 'as' = 'because' , in 
a) 'as' = 'in the way that'
e.g You must act *as* you think fit , You must act *in the way that* you 
think fit .
She drinks tea with breakfast *as* is customary in England , She drinks tea 
with breakfast *in the way that* is customary in England  (so in this case 
there is no expressed subject of 'is') .
Since that  is the way this particular meaning of 'as' would be expressed , 
then the introduction of 'it' indicates that 'as' is being used in another 
sense (and 'because' is the only one that would fit here) .
However , once again (b) , though correct , is rather contrived ; I think it 
is extremely unlikely that a native speaker would choose to express the idea 
in this way .
Mike 

 12b) She drinks tea with breakfast, as it is customary in England
The subject of "is" in 12a is implied: "drinking tea with breakfast." 

 there is someone in that room.
Language is so dependent on context. Even 12b could indicate that you 


 The subject of "is" in 12a is implied: "drinking tea with breakfast." 
And what difference is that?
Kiuhnm

 And what difference is that?
It's an answer to Lorent's question:  what is the subject of "is" in a) ? In 
my opinion, there is no significant difference in meaning between the two 
sentences unless you create a difference in how you voice the sentence. By 
emphasizing the 'it' in the appropriate way, the sentence can imply that the 
reason that she drinks tea with breakfast is because it is customary in 
England. This understanding, however, starts to impinge on the old "as", 
"since", "because" issue, and we know you have already picked a side on that 
controversy.