Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: which I find disappointing

I was reading a few posts on a forum when I came across this sentence:
"Thanks indeed, but it seems that Ubuntu does not provide the latest 
version of latex/tex, which I find disappointing."
What does he find disappointing? The latest version of latex/tex or the 
fact that Ubuntu isn't provided with it?
Would an editor modify such a sentence?
Kiuhnm


I think it's clear that what that person found disappointing was the
fact that the latest version of latex wasn't included in Ubuntu (is it
true, by the way?).

Kiuhnm wrote:

Non credo. Perché?
In italiano distingueremmo:
"che" se ci riferiamo a "the latest version of latex/tex"; 
"il che" se ci riferiamo all'intera frase, cioè al fatto che "...does
not provide... etc.".
In inglese, invece, si può usare "which" in entrambi i casi, AFAIK,
distinguendo grazie al contesto.
Se mi riferissi a "the latest version of latex/tex", però, potrei
usare anche "that", anzi forse lo preferirei per chiarezza,
infischiandomene della regoletta secondo cui in quel caso dovrei
usare "which" e non "that".
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000255.htm
Correggetemi se sbaglio.


That would depend on the status of the writer and the investment of the 
publisher. Most publishers provide only cursory editing nowadays because it 
costs money to edit a text. If I were writing the sentence, I would write: 
'Thanks indeed, but I find it disappointing that Ubuntu does not (seem to) 
provide the latest version of latex/tex.' 

 true, by the way?).
I don't use Ubuntu. I wouldn't know...
Kiuhnm

 distinguendo grazie al contesto.
How would you interpret this one:
"Thanks indeed, but it seems that Ubuntu does not provide the latest 
version of latex/tex, which I find disappointing anyway."
Kiuhnm

Kiuhnm wrote:

La chiave è disappointing -> not provide.
Ma 
She asked me to translate a book written in Arabic, which is Greek to
me!
;)

 ;)
That's Irish!
Kiuhnm

 That's Irish!
?

 ?
Irish also means "illogical". I was joking, of course.
Kiuhnm

 sentence.
Dici? Un 'anyway' può riferirsi a qualsiasi cosa, non lo caricherei
di soverchia importanza. Non vedo grande ambiguità in quella frase ee
anche Tony (pur riscrivendola) e Lorents hanno dato la stessa
lettura, mi pare. Ovviamente non è neanche una formula matematica ma
una frase in linguaggio naturale e in quanto tale soggetta a margini
di ambiguità.
Bisognerebbe vedere qual è il contesto più generale in cui si
inquadrava quella frase, se ci sono altri elementi.
Se vuoi evitare qualsiasi ambiguità, Tony ha suggerito una soluzione.

 lettura, mi pare.
No, scusa, su questo mi correggo: la loro lettura si riferiva alla
frase originale, senza l'anyway che hai aggiunto nella nuova versione.

 di soverchia importanza.
Well, I think it has great importance in this situation.
The sentence
"Thanks indeed, but it seems that Ubuntu does not provide the latest 
version of latex/tex, which I'd find disappointing anyway."
may be rephrased as follows:
"Thanks indeed, but it seems that Ubuntu does not provide the latest 
version of latex/tex, which I'd find disappointing even if this weren't 
the case."
It's clear that "which" can't refer to the fact that Ubuntu doesn't 
provide the latest version of LaTeX/TeX, because you can't be 
disappointed in something even if that doesn't exist. The last part of 
the sentence indeed says that you would be disappointed even if Ubuntu 
*did* provide the latest version of LaTeX/TeX.
Anyway have a look here (search for "must refer to"):
http://depts.gallaudet.edu/englishworks/grammar/commonerrors.html
Kiuhnm

 
http://depts.gallaudet.edu/englishworks/grammar/commonerrors.html
Says who? :-)
L'importante è che il significato emerga senza ambiguità dal
contesto, AFAIU.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/W0117400.html
The relative pronoun which is sometimes used to refer to an entire
sentence or clause, rather than a noun or noun phrase, as in She
ignored him, which proved to be unwise. They swept the council
elections, which could never have happened under the old rules. While
these examples are unexceptionable, using which in this way sometimes
produces an ambiguous sentence. Thus It emerged that Edna made the
complaint, which surprised everybody leaves unclear whether it was
surprising that a complaint was made or that Edna made it. The
ambiguity can be avoided with paraphrases such as It emerged that the
complaint was made by Edna, a revelation that surprised everybody.
•Which may be used to refer to an entire sentence or clause only when
it is preceded by that sentence or clause. When the referent follows,
what should be used, particularly in formal style: Still, he has not
said he will withdraw, which is more surprising but Still, what (not
which) is more surprising, he has not said he will withdraw.

 which) is more surprising, he has not said he will withdraw.
Another position to keep in mind.
Kiuhnm

 Says who? :-)
http://depts.gallaudet.edu/englishworks/EW/aboutEW.html
It's not just any site, I think.
Kiuhnm

 Another position to keep in mind.
Anche altri dizionari
Encarta:
 
which
...
6. pron refers back to phrase or sentence: used to refer back to an
entire verb phrase or sentence
Swimming after eating, which I've told you not to do, can be very
dangerous.
Webster 1913:
which
...
(pron.) A relative pronoun, used esp. in referring to an antecedent
noun or clause, but sometimes with reference to what is specified or
implied in a sentence, or to a following noun or clause (generally
involving a reference, however, to something which has preceded). It
is used in all numbers and genders, and was formerly used of persons.

Kiuhnm wrote:

Confesso la mia ignoranza, mai sentita la Gallaudet University.
Oltre che di ignoranza voglio peccare un po' di presunzione e dire
che quell'informazione è, in ogni caso, mal presentata.
In una pagina di Common Errors dove si elenca una serie di errori
marchiani
(esempio: "Roy was kicked the ball.")
inseriscono quella "regola" 
("Which must refer to a single noun. It cannot refer to a whole
clause.")
che al massimo può considerarsi un'indicazione di stile, utile magari
a prevenire possibili ambiguità, ma assolutamente 'not in the same
league' con gli strafalcioni senza appello!
Anche l'esempio che propongono è fuorviante, 
(NO: Doctors operate on the heart which can be very dangerous.) 
perché manca una virgola e perché la frase sarebbe brutta in ogni
caso.
 

 caso.
Yep, you're right.
Kiuhnm


K is right .
"Thanks indeed, but it seems that Ubuntu does not
 provide the latest version of latex/tex, which I find
 disappointing."
"Thanks indeed, but it seems that Ubuntu does not provide the
latest version of latex/tex, which I find disappointing anyway."
I agree that in this case the 'anyway' changes the meaning radically and 
unambiguously . Whilst it might be just possible (maybe) to construct 
contexts in which a faint possibility of ambiguity might arise , it's 
natural to read the first sentence as meaning that the lack of provision is 
what is disappointing , and even more natural to understand the second 
sentence as meaning that it is the latest version of latex which disappoints 
.
Mike

 disappoints .
Ah... it's so good to be right :-)
Kiuhnm

 it is the latest version of latex which disappoints .
OK, your interpretation trumps mine!