Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Listening experience

I'd like to know if anyone of you have experienced an incredible, but 
momentaneous, gain in listening comprehension after having watched 
movies, tv series episodes, etc... for at least 12(!) hours straight. 
Two days ago I watched at least 15 episodes of "24 hours" (season 1) 
and, in the evening (yep), I could understand *every single* word of 
every tv series, radio program, etc... I was very happy and satisfied, 
but after an 8-hour sleep my listening comprehension has returned to 
normal, that is, to hardly acceptable levels.
Did you (or have you) experienced anything like this?
Kiuhnm

Kiuhnm wrote:

Anch'io sto guardando "24", sono alla terza stagione. Le vicende paiono
sempre più inverosimili, ma proprio ieri sul giornale ho letto una
notiziola secondo cui Al Qaeda avrebbe tentato un piano per diffondere
l'antrace negli USA attraverso una partita di droga (simile alla trama di
"24" s.3), ma i narcotrafficanti sudamericani non si sono prestati
all'operazione! Chissà se è vero, boh.
Tornando a bomba alla lingua, quello che dici è abbastanza vero anche per
me, ma non servono necessariamente 12 ore di ascolto difilato! :)
E' come se a un certo punto qualcosa facesse clic nel cervello, o ci si
sintonizzasse sulla stessa frequenza d'onda, e si comprende quel che si
ascolta, tranne ovviamente le parole del tutto sconosciute, se il
significato non è ricavabile dal contesto.
Una serie televisiva come "24" aiuta in questo senso, sia perché contiene
ore e ore di parlato *omogeneo*, sia perché gli attori hanno generalmente
una buona dizione, scandiscono abbastanza, e usano un linguaggio standard.
E' anche vero che il "clic" di cui sopra non dura per sempre, se si
sospende si torna to "normal", come dici. Però va un po' a momenti, ho
notato che dipende anche dal livello di attenzione (se la storia ti prende
oppure no), dal rumore ambientale, dalle distrazioni. L'uso delle cuffie,
che Adam consiglia sempre, aiuta in positivo. L'uso dei sottotitoli invece
è deleterio, in questo senso, perché sposta l'attenzione dalle orecchie
agli occhi. ;D
-- 

 che Adam consiglia sempre, aiuta in positivo.
That's why I don't use them anymore. One must learn to comprehend 
dialogues even when the audio is far from perfect. For instance it's 
very difficult to understand someone when he whispers or when you can 
hear a waterfall in the background.
Kiuhnm

 Did you (or have you) experienced anything like this?
Either "did you experience" or "have you experienced".

 But after 12 hours you can hear even the bullets speak.
And, if you've been watching 24, they're probabily saying "son of a bitch".
-- 
Laz || 
http://www.dimensionedelta.net
 ||
|| 
http://www.josswhedon.it
 || 
http://www.miltoncaniff.net
 ||
"Beg, borrow or steal, I'll find a way to be with my lover next Christmas 
day." 

 health.
Never watched 24, huh? You MUST see it all (if you have it all there), or at 
least until you drop.
I watched season 1 in two days too, years ago.


 Never watched 24, huh?
No, I don't watch series in general.
I still think that watching a screen for 12 hours is not a good thing to 
do, whatever you are watching.

 Either "did you experience" or "have you experienced".
Thanks, it seems that closing a parenthesis wasn't enough for my mind to 
go back to "did" and discover the mistake.
Kiuhnm

 do, whatever you are watching.
Once in a while you can make an exception.
Kiuhnm

 to do, whatever you are watching.
I do it every day for work... (and personally, I don't have sight problems). 
Doing it once in a while for fun sure can't be worse.


 hear a waterfall in the background.
What if one has a waterfall *inside* the room? After a while it does get 
annoying (no, I don't live in the forest, if that's what you're 
wondering! I just have a fish tank). Besides, I can't turn on my sound 
system when it's after 11 pm, so...
Cheers,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"Tonight's the night. And it's going to happen again, and again. Has to 
happen. Nice night."

 una buona dizione, scandiscono abbastanza, e usano un linguaggio standard.
Non ho mai capito perché in un telefilm in cui si ammazzano e/o 
torturano vicendevolmente al massimo si dicono "son of a bitch". Dexter 
è più realistico.
;-)
Ciao,


 or at least until you drop.
Sooner or later if I'm desperate enough I'll surely watch it *all* in 
one day. Gotta be awesome!
:-D
Cheers,


 al massimo si dicono "son of a bitch"
Nell'insieme parlano pulito, forse per dare un'immagine "pulita" e positiva
dei protagonisti: agenti federali, presidente USA, ecc.
Però mi viene in mente Bewitched (1967), dove al massimo si diceva "Son of
a gun!". ;DDD

 positiva dei protagonisti: agenti federali, presidente USA, ecc.
Qui ci sarebbe da discutere... ma guarda le prossime stagioni prima 8-)
Cmq volevo dire... che invece Kiefer Sutherland in questo momento č in 
galera!
http://serialnews.blogspot.com/2007/12/jack-is-in-jail-back.html
8-)
Laz 

 I do it every day for work...
Do you work 12 hours a day?

 Do you work 12 hours a day?
Yes, it doesn't sound that strange to me. 8 hours in the office and then 
later at home... sometimes more, sometimes less than an additional 4 hours. 
LCD monitors, of course.
Laz 

 dei protagonisti: agenti federali, presidente USA, ecc.
Anche i cattivoni non dico che parlino in modo forbito, ma non si 
spingono mai verso la f-word. Contenti loro!


 
http://serialnews.blogspot.com/2007/12/jack-is-in-jail-back.html
Naughty Jack!
Cheers,


 spingono mai verso la f-word. Contenti loro!
I terroristi internazionali non sono mica briganti da strada da quattro
soldi! Anche bin Laden viene da un'ottima famiglia. ;D
-- 

 soldi! Anche bin Laden viene da un'ottima famiglia. ;D
Vero. Sarà che i poliziotti di Miami (Dexter docet) sono tutti rozzi e 
maleducati.
:-D


 Pure Alias era cosě.
I've only watched the first season of "24" so far, but every episode of 
Alias. I wouldn't put "24" and Alias on the same level concerning 
realism. Perhaps the events of "24" are a bit far fetched, but the 
"dynamics" feels real.
I always say "If you can't do something, don't do it". Perhaps it's just 
because mine is an expert eye, but fighting scenes in the movies or tv 
series are getting crappier and crappier. Hadn't Matrix never existed...
Don't misunderstand me. I reckon that Matrix is a very good movie, but 
it started a fashion that I don't quite like. Moreover, while in a movie 
one have the time to train the actors, repeat the scenes again and again 
until everything is convincing, usually those details receive less 
attention in TV series. For instance, every movement of the main actress 
of "Alias" is just wrong. They seem performed by... an unskilled wannabe 
fighter. But don't worry, usually a mask solves the problem!
Another thing I hate is that Alias's fighting scenes are hotchpotchs of 
one-second shots. What's the purpose of it? They know it's fake, we know 
it's fake and it looks fake. So? Was my headache worth having? I don't 
think so.
By the way, all those fancy moves just doesn't help in real fights.
Kiuhnm

 Non è strano che 12 P.M. venga subito prima di 1 P.M., 2 P.M., ecc.?
Writing 0 in place of 12 does the trick.
After all we don't write 24 but 0.
Kiuhnm

 I just have a fish tank
"Chi è causa del proprio mal pianga se stesso".
:-)
Kiuhnm

 do, whatever you are watching.
May be you didn't catch the joke: it took him 12 hours to watch the 
entire first season of the highly acclaimed TV series "24 hours".

 wrote in message
news:47593355$0$4790$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...

I am not a believer in improving listening comprehension by passive methods
such as watching movies or television programs. I consider it more of a test
of what you already know, not a means of learning, except on a very small
scale.
A person's accent in a foreign language is the best indicator of his
listening comprehension in that language. You speak what you hear, and you
hear what you speak. Most people have poor accents in a foreign language,
because most of their learning is from books, supervised by non-native
speakers. There is not enough practice imitating native speakers. You don't
really know a word or phrase until you have spoken it as a native speaker
does, imitating every nuance of his speech.
Joe from Massachusetts

 hear what you speak.
What you say is oversimplistic. If you can't hear a sound you can't 
reproduce it without some external help. But you could be able to 
distinguish two sounds and still be unable to reproduce them.
Kiuhnm


Passive language learning skills are reading and listening, while active
skills are writing and speaking.
Most language teaching is done using passive methods, and where active
methods are used, the instructor is not a native speaker, which is not the
ideal situation.
Unless a student lives in a country whose language he is studying, he must
himself take on the task of developing the active skill of speaking by
availing himself of teaching materials such as recordings which allow him to
imitate the native accent.
Joe from Massachusetts

 does, imitating every nuance of his speech.
I agree with you that that would be a very useful practice. I think it
would be even more helpful if that native speaker told the lerner when his
or her pronunciation was wrong, if he or she didn't realise it him/herself.
:)
-- 

 hear what you speak. 
E come la metti che parlo un inglese simil-britannico ma guardo per la 
maggior parte telefilm americani? Sarà che trovo faticoso pronunciare 
tutte quelle erre!
:-D
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"I've had enough trouble for a lifetime"

 wrote in message
news:xn0fezeoq...@news.lillathedog.net...

I was referring to language courses which combine listening, speaking,
reading, writing and grammar, in which the emphasis is on listening to and
repeating a native speaker's recorded voice, and not to an actual guy you
might meet on the street who might be afflicted with a case of bad grammar
complicated by an unusual accent.
One of the problems my Italian friends had when they were trying to learn
English from Americans they met in Italy was in identifying who was capable
of speaking correct English and who wasn't. I had an English friend who
taught in a language school, and he vouched for my English, and he even had
me read to one of his classes to demonstrate that the American accent was
comprehensible, and not all that unpleasant. I in turn pointed out to my
Italian friends other American friends whose English I considered worthy of
imitation, and I steered them away from people who might not be the best
linguistic role models. My Italian friends also helped me in my study of
Italian by suggesting other Italians whose language was or wasn't to be
imitated. I had an Italian friend from Rome who was afraid that I would
never be able to learn "good Italian" in Vicenza.
Joe from Massachusetts


It makes no difference what accent you learn initially. Most of the Italians
I met in Italy spoke with an accent which was neither American nor British,
but seemed closer to the British, which I assume is because they were taught
by Italian teachers who favored the British accent, but who never quite
mastered it themselves, because they in turned had learned it from other
Italians.
There are many regional American accents where the prevalence of the "erre"
is more or less the same as in the British accent, my own accent being one
of them.
Have you heard Hugh Laurie's American accent on "House"?
«"I haven't identified a single word that is pronounced the same in America
as it is in England," the 47-year-old actor tells Entertainment Weekly
magazine in its Aug. 25 issue. "And that can really take you out of the
moment, having to constantly listen to yourself and check your accent. It
makes it harder to immerse yourself in the scene."»  (Hugh Laurie)
http://www.accesshollywood.com/news/ah1335.shtml
Joe from Massachusetts

 mastered it themselves, because they in turned had learned it from other
in turn, not in turned
Joe from Massachusetts

 Italian" in Vicenza.
Ok, but you could point out actors with a good pronunciation in movies or
telly, as well.
-- 

> Italian" in Vicenza.
Good Italian? After the superiority of the race we even have the concept 
of the superiority of the accent?
That's just nonsense. Are there good roses and bad roses?
Life is complicated because we complicate it ourselves. We simply can't 
accept that two things are different: one must be better than the other.
Kiuhnm

 be better than the other.
In ambito linguistico, "good Italian" vuol dire semplicemente "Italiano
standard", IMHO, e non implica necessariamente un giudizio di valore su chi
lo parla.
-- 


How unpleasant is it , then ? and the English accent ?
When I was in France for a while , some (not all) Americans I came across 
spoke with a marked accent (indeed it seemed to me that they made no attempt 
at all to approach a native accent) , and yet to me it sounded still quite 
attractive - just as we English find English spoken with a French accent 
attractive - whereas French spoken with an English accent (like mine) sounds 
dreadful .
Mike 

 How unpleasant is it , then ? and the English accent ?
I personally like both of them :)
-- 

 Have you heard Hugh Laurie's American accent on "House"?
No, non mi ha mai ispirato House MD. Ho appena guardato uno spezzone su 
youtube, ma mi sembra che sia un americano normalissimo. 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Bh7vnIVPv4
Uh, leggo ora che Hugh Laurie è in realtà inglese! Beh, se la cava bene, 
no? Anche in Bionic Woman, un telefilm di quest'anno, c'è un'attrice 
inglese che  parla in un accento americano molto verosimile (almeno per 
me!).
Hai mai visto Dexter, in particolare la seconda stagione? C'è un 
personaggio inglese che però fa un accento britannico alle mie orecchie 
decisamente forzato. 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=i5Eh9J0IzoY


 of the superiority of the accent?
Più che altro per me conta quanto uno sappia "dosare" il proprio accento 
nelle varie situazioni. Qualche giorno fa a lezione all'università erano 
stati chiamati alla lavagna due studenti romani de roma che proprio 
sapevano solo parlare con il loro accentaccio, troncando i verbi 
all'infinto, mettendo erre al posto delle elle (vedi "else" diventa 
"erse"!) manco fossero sul trastevere a parla' de'a lazio. Poi è stato 
chiamato un pugliese che mi ha ricordato il finale di questo video: 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oSHHbfY6MVc
:-D
Non che io parli un italiano perfetto (anzi!), però credo di essere in 
grado di discernere le circostanze in cui posso parlare "come viene 
viene" da quelle in cui magari sarebbe opportuno non parlare come se 
l'altro interlocutore fosse er cuggino de Ostia.


 bene, no?
Non è che se la cava bene... è un dio in terra... 8-)
Laz 

 I personally like both of them :)
Now I do too. But a few years ago I used to dislike British accents. 
Probabily simply because the accent they taught me at school was British... 
and every time I slipped into an American accent (even way back then!), my 
teacher used to correct me. So I never liked it. Then I started listening to 
some British stuff and... found out that it had nothing to do with what they 
taught us at school! And changed my attitude. 8-)
Laz 

 Non è che se la cava bene... è un dio in terra... 8-)
Quello non era Chuck Norris?


 Quello non era Chuck Norris?
Quando Chuck Norris finisce in cura da House, Chuck Norris è un uomo morto.
Laz 

 wrote in message
news:47644019$0$17954$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...

The BBC hired Giovanna Vaccaro from the province of Vicenza to teach Italian
via their "Italian Steps" course. I'm sure that Italians could identify her
accent as a Veneto accent, but that doesn't mean it's not "good Italian",
whatever my friend from Rome may have thought.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/italian/lj/
Joe from Massachusetts


David Niven and Cary Grant always spoke in the same accent whether on-screen
or off, unlike Hugh Laurie, who immediately reverts to his native British
accent when he is not on camera. Laurie could not carry on a normal
conversation in his "American" accent. His on-screen dialogues are carefully
coached.
Elizabeth Taylor's parents were American, and she only lived in England
until she was seven years old.
Joe from Massachusetts

 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/italian/lj/
I'm glad to hear that.
Kiuhnm


Do you mean not very different from each other, or not very different from
today's accents?
Joe from Massachusetts