Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Strange unit of measure

While I was reading an article that I found on a website, I met this 
strange unit of measure, "a carton of land".
Obviously it's a measure for surface areas, but I couldn't find any other 
information about it on the internet.
Does any English native know more about it? 
If it can help, the article was about an Irish land, so "carton" might be 
an Irish old term.
Thanks!
 
-- 
Antonio

 strange unit of measure, "a carton of land".
 
Any clue about it?
Would you have an idea of where I could ask this question? An Irish forum?
 
-- 
Antonio

):

Sorry, Antonio; it's not a term that I'm familiar with, nor could I find any 
reference to the word that would apply.
 
Are you sure it isn't "canton." Just asking...
 
-- 
Joey from New York
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator,
but among those whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.
   -- WH Auden
 

 Would you have an idea of where I could ask this question? An Irish forum?
 
It is a typographical error. The unit of measurement is a cartron. It's 
a rather inaccurate measurement of land based on the size of arable land 
you can plow in 21 days, or by another rule, 30 acres.
 
No, I'm not an expert on ancient Irish history or agricultural trivia. I 
just know how to Vulcan mind-meld with search engines.
 
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/history/territorial_divisions/units_land_measurement.htm
 
 
How the Hell are you running into this stuff? You're not reading the 
Calendar of the Patent and Close Rolls of Chancery in Ireland from the 
18th to the 45th of Queen Elizabeth, Volume II, by James Morrin, Clerk 
of Enrollments in Chancery, are you? I certainly hope not!
 

Antonio, 23:01, giovedì 5 luglio 2012:

Guglando "a carton of land" ho trovato questo riferimento:
 
1594:
5854 (4774).  Grant (under Queen?s letter 29th June XXX) to
Patrick Grant; certain possessions of priory of Kills, Co.
Kilk., in same Co. (Rent 16/=); parcel of lands etc. of
Jerpoint in Kilkenny )6/4); lands of certain attainted persons
in Co. Kilkenny, (17/1); Cullaghe, Co. Tipp in Ony Mulryan,
parcel of the lands of Daniel m?Knoghor Effollie O?Mulryan of
Cullaghe, slain in the rebellion; Inchofogertie in barony of
Pobleofogertie, parcel of the lands of Molaghlin m?Shane E Carr
O?Fogartie of that place slain in the rebellion, Towrin
(Toureen) in Muskriquirk, parcel of the lands of John m?Ulick
Bourke of that place, slain in rebellion, Rathgowle (Rathcoole
nr. Fethard), parcel of lands pf priory of St. John Baptist
without Newgate, Dublin, Cowlegorte in Muskriquirk parcel of
the lands of Mahowne ne Bowlye O?Quirke of that place,
attainted, Lyssine by Ballinlogan in country of Clanwilliam,
parcel of the lands of Thomas Bourke of Cowle  attainted, (Rent
9/73/8); Knockekillie, Co. Tipp parcel of the lands of Peter
Butler of that place, attainted of felony, (26/8); Killmocoage
in O?Mulryan, parcel of the lands of Donill give O?Mulryan of
that place, slain in rebellion, Castleqarr in Arra, parcel of
the lands of Morughe m?Knoghor O?Brien of that place,
attainted, Curraghnenwony in said Co. parcel of the lands of
Knoghor m?Doyne m?Ivannye and Mahoione m?Doyne M?Ivannye of
that place, attainted, a third of Boghir in Kilvalloghegertie
in said Co., attainted !!!; Crossaryle in Kilnevannaghe
(Kilnamanagh), parcel of the lands of Donell m?Donough O?Doyre
and Donogh Dullhenrie O?Doyre of that place, attainted;
Garrannmore in Ormond, parcel of the lands of Dermot m?Shane
O?Glysane of that place, attainted, Kilkerasker in said Co.
containing half a carton of land making 3 acres of the small
measure, parcel of the lands of Owin m?Maloghlin roe O?Dowdye
of Ballycurrye, said Co., attainted; a messuage and garden in
Carrigmagriffin in said Co. lying in length between the house
of the Earl of Ormond on the west, and the river Showre of the
East, and in breath between the house of said Earl on the
north, and the land of Patr. Dobyn on the south, parcel of the
possessions of the friary of St. John of Jerusalem in Ireland,
Ballin? egillevile in said co. parcel of the land of Rob. duffe
Bourke of Ballinegillevile, attainted.  (13/4).  All the
premises were concealed and detained from the crown.  To hold
for ever in Common socage.  Rent £4-9-03/8 Mar. XXXVI.  (Cal.
P.R. p.284), (date Dublin 25th Mar. 1594).
 
http://www.ryans.org/researchinfo/annates
 - fiants-1452 -
1603-Tipperary.htm
 
 
-- 
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up
with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and
sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words: it is
war minus the shooting."
                -- George Orwell
 

 It is a typographical error. The unit of measurement is a cartron
 
Way to go, Antonio!


 Are you sure it isn't "canton." Just asking...
 
Well, actually I wrote "carton", but anyway I'm sure of what I read, but 
I'm not sure it is correct.
The sentence reads:
"Sir Richard Tuite established himself in Granard and built his motte and 
bailey there in about 1200. He founded a Cistercian Monastery in honour 
of the Blessed Virgin, and granted eighteen cartons of land."
 
But as Tony says, it surely is a typo, an "r" is missing in the word, 
it's "cartron". 
Thanks a lot, Joe!
 
-- 
Antonio

 of Enrollments in Chancery, are you? I certainly hope not!
 
No, I'm not, but it seems you did :-)
I'm just interested in ancient Irish history and I found this term that I 
couldn't understand or transform in a comprehensible measure of our days. 
 
-- 
Antonio

 measure
 
Well, ADPUF, it seems that someone else made the same mistake in typing 
this word.
As Tony says, it's a typo for "cartron". The word that I found referred 
to something in co. Longford, this article that you found refers to co. 
Tipperary. At least now we know that it wasn't a local term.
Thanks for your help, with my researches I kept on landing in "cartoon 
land" -)
 
-- 
Antonio

 arable land you can plow in 21 days, or by another rule, 30 acres.
 
Amazing!
Thanks to your excellent hint I made further researches and it's 
incredible what I did find!
OK, the cartron is a unit of measure equal to 30 acres.
But the original article told of 18 cartrons of land in co. Longford. 
Well, only in co. Longford one cartron is equal to 60 acres.
It's not over yet. One acre is equal to 4046 square metres. But we're 
talking of co. Longford, Ireland. The Irish acre is 1.62 times larger 
than a classical acre.
So we have 18 cartrons, that is 1080 Irish acres in co. Longford, that is 
a total of about 708 hectars.
I know you don't give a damn about it, but I feel better now that I 
explained you this.
Thanks for your attention, without you I'd have never found out these 
facts.
 
-- 
Antonio

 

I've found these definitions in units.dat, the file used by the
Unix conversion program "units":
 
# Irish linear measure
 
irishinch       UKinch
irishpalm       3 irishinch
irishspan       3 irishpalm
irishfoot       12 irishinch
irishfeet       irishfoot
irishcubit      18 irishinch
irishyard       3 irishfeet
irishpace       5 irishfeet
irishfathom     6 irishfeet
irishpole       7 irishyard      # Only these values
irishperch      irishpole        # are different from
irishchain      4 irishperch     # the British Imperial
irishlink       1|100 irishchain # or English values for
irishfurlong    10 irishchain    # these lengths.
irishmile       8 irishfurlong   #
 
#  Irish area measure
 
irishrood       40 irishpole^2
irishacre       4 irishrood
 
 
 
BTW:
# obscure British lengths
 
barleycorn  1|3 UKinch # Given in Realm of Measure as the
                     # difference between successive shoe sizes
nail    1|16 UKyard  # Originally the width of the thumbnail,
                     #   or 1|16 ft.  This took on the general
                     #   meaning of 1|16 and settled on the
                     #   nail of a yard or 1|16 yards as its
                     #   final value.  [12]
pole    16.5 UKft    # This was 15 Saxon feet, the Saxon
rope    20 UKft      #   foot (aka northern foot) being longer
englishell  45 UKinch
flemishell  27 UKinch
ell     englishell   # supposed to be measure from elbow to
                     #   fingertips
span    9 UKinch     # supposed to be distance from thumb
                     #   to pinky with full hand extension
goad    4.5 UKft     # used for cloth, possibly named after the
                     #   stick used for prodding animals.
 
# misc obscure British units
 
rood          1|4 acre
englishcarat troyounce/151.5 # Originally intended to be 4 grain
                          #   but this value ended up being
                          #   used in the London diamond market
mancus      2 oz
mast        2.5 lb
nailkeg     100 lbs
basebox     31360 in^2      # Used in metal plating
 
 
# English beer and ale measures used 1803-1824 and used for beer
before 1688
 
beerpint       1|2 beerquart
beerquart      1|4 beergallon
beergallon     282 UKinch^3
beerbarrel     36 beergallon
beerhogshead   1.5 beerbarrel
 
# English ale measures used from 1688-1803 for both ale and beer
 
alepint        1|2 alequart
alequart       1|4 alegallon
alegallon      beergallon
alebarrel      34 alegallon
alehogshead    1.5 alebarrel
 
 
# Scots capacity measure
 
scotsgill      1|4 mutchkin
mutchkin       1|2 choppin
choppin        1|2 scotspint
scotspint      1|2 scotsquart
scotsquart     1|4 scotsgallon
scotsgallon    827.232 UKinch^3
scotsbarrel    8 scotsgallon
jug            scotspint
 
 
# Irish liquid capacity measure
 
irishnoggin    1|4 irishpint
irishpint      1|2 irishquart
irishquart     1|2 irishpottle
irishpottle    1|2 irishgallon
irishgallon    217.6 UKinch^3
irishrundlet   18 irishgallon
irishbarrel    31.5 irishgallon
irishtierce    42 irishgallon
irishhogshead  2 irishbarrel
irishpuncheon  2 irishtierce
irishpipe      2 irishhogshead
irishtun       2 irishpipe
 
 
etc etc...
 
 
-- 
In the first place, God made idiots; this was for practice; then
he made school boards.
    -- Mark Twain