Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: la forma condizionale fantasma (horror movie)

Salve,
sto cercando di scrivere un algoritmo che produca tutti i casi della
consecutio temporum dell'inglese. Una sorta di "grammatica generativa" per i
modi ed i tempi verbali.
La parte più semplice dovrebbe essere quella delle forme condizionali, ma
proprio in questo caso mi è sorto un dubbio, dovuto al fatto che alcune
delle
forme "generabili" non mi risulta siano impiegate nella lingua inglese.
Prendiamo in esame la struttura delle tre forme condizionali consuete:
I) <if + present simple> => <present modal + simple inf.>
    Es: If you love me, I will be happy
II) <if + past simple> => <past modal + simple inf.>
    Es: If you loved me, I would be happy
III) <if + past perfect> => <past modal + perfect inf.>
    Es: If you had loved me, I would have been happy
Possiamo generalizzare il tutto nella forma seguente:
<if + X Y> => <X modal + Y inf.>
dove le due variabili possono assumere i seguenti valori:
X = {present, past}
Y = {simple, perfect}
Qui però troviamo un esempio del problema cui accennavo, poiché se si
prendono tutte le combinazioni possibili dovremmo ottenere *quattro* casi
anziché tre.
Tecnicamente non è difficile escludere alcuni casi, tuttavia un problema
analogo a questo me lo ritrovo anche in altre strutture sintattiche, e
volevo cercare di capire se i casi "fantasma" vanno esclusi semplicemente
perché non vengono mai usati o se invece sono proprio privi di senso per un
madrelingua.
Ora, il quarto caso dovrebbe avere una struttura del genere:
<if + present perfect> => <present modal + perfect inf.>
sicché si produrrebbero frasi di questo tipo:
     "If you have loved me, I will have been happy"
Domanda: se un madrelingua sentisse una fra se del genere, riuscirebbe ad
attribuire ad essa un qualche significato? (A prescindere dal fatto che,
magari, non sarebbe mai disposto ad esprimersi in quel modo.)
Grazie per l'attenzione e saluti.
Davide

      "If you have loved me, I will have been happy"
Uhm, "se mi avrai amato, sarò stato felice". Secondo me, ha senso. Vediamo
che dicono i madrelingua.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Suppose I say I'm not interested."
"Does five hundred dollars interest you?"
"Very much."
"Then bring it: it's an expensive restaurant".
(The Cheap Detective)

 Vediamo che dicono i madrelingua.
Sentiamo un po'.
Ciao.
D.

 felice"
Fortunatamente, nei due casi il significato è in fin dei conti il medesimo.
Più precisione non ci è dato di esprimere in una lingua naturale, credo.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"It sounds appalling!"
"Interesting and appalling. The others just sound appalling!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

 Il primo e il terzo mi paiono corretti, e nemmeno tanto astrusi.
Non credo sia sbagliato dire anche "If you would follow me, I'll show you
my library".
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Are you sure an embryo parson should have a plane?"
"Everyone should have a plane!"


 principale, anche nella if-clause c'č il futuro, invisibile.
Non so, ti confido che io non credo all'esistenza del "futuro" :-)
Ho postato un articolo nel gruppo di linguistica italiana (č nel thread
"consecutio temporum") dove spiego meglio che senso dare a questa "eresia".
Ciao.
D.

 magari, non sarebbe mai disposto ad esprimersi in quel modo.)
Si fa molto fatica a capire il significato, e infatti nessun inglese lo
direbbe.
-- 
Mary

 lo direbbe.
Grazie.
Scusa se approfitto un po' della tua gentilezza: ti viene in mente una
qualche frase nella forma:
     <if + present perfect> => <present modal + perfect inf.>
che potrebbe avere un significato più chiaro? (Sto cercando di capire se ho
scelto un esempio sbagliato o se è proprio un caso "irrecuperabile".)
Saluti.
Davide


 Well , I can't attach meaning to it in any language . The happiness to 
which you refer must occur sometime between now and an unspecified time in 
the future (if you've already experienced happiness , it can't be dependent 
on a condition ) ; how , then , can you assert that you will be happy when 
you cannot know whether the condition has been satisfied ?  You would have 
to add another clause to the condition postulating your discovery of the 
positive fulfilment of the first condition : 'If you have loved me and I 
find out by (eg) Friday that that has been the case , then by (eg) Saturday 
I shall have been happy' . As it stands , the original is not sense ; and if 
it's expressed in the terms of which my rewriting is  model , the likelihood 
of it's being said or having ever been said in English is infinitesimally 
small .
I think the problem with Davide Pioggia's original problem is that the 
conditional is not a tense at all (though we may often refer to it as such 
for convenience) - it is a mood of the verb .
Mike 

 been satisfied ?
E' per questo che - come dicevo a Mary - mi è venuto il sospetto di aver
scelto un esempio sbagliato.
La tua obiezione è giusta, ma proprio il fatto che tu riesca ad avanzare
questa obiezione, dimostra che tu hai capito benissimo ciò che significa la
frase, altrimenti non potresti dimostrare che essa afferma una assurdità.
Dunque, ammettiamo pure che quella frase sia *logicamente* sbagliata, ma è
anche *grammaticalmente* sbagliata?
Non sarebbe certo la prima volta nella storia dell'umanità che qualcuno
afferma una cosa assurda usando una frase grammaticalemte ineccepibile.
Per verificare l'aspetto grammaticale escludendo quello logico, possiamo
usare il solito vecchio trucco di affermare una tautologia. In questo modo
ciò che si afferma è sicuramente vero, e se c'è qualcosa di sbagliato si
deve trattare della costruzione grammaticale.
Dobbiamo dunque trovare una tautologia nella forma:
     <if + present perfect> => <present modal + perfect inf.>
come possono essere, ad esempio, le seguenti:
      "If you have loved me, I will have been loved"
      "If you have read the book, it (the book) will have been read"
Sono grammaticalmente sbagliate?
Se non lo sono, cioè se sono accettabili, allora si pone un altro problema:
questa "quarta forma" può servire solo per affermare delle tautologie, o
riusciamo a trovare almeno una frase che possa essere espressa in quella
forma e non sia una banale tautologia?
Saluti, e grazie per l'aiuto.
Davide


But this version doesn't make sense , either  : the condition relates to the 
past ; even if it has been fulfilled , it cannot be a sufficient condition 
for your having been , being in the future , or having been at a point even 
further in the future , happy . Your happiness is dependent upon the 
knowledge of having been loved , not on having been loved .
Mike 

 I shall have been happy' .
Sorry for quoting so much text, but I couldn't do otherwise.
That "you have loved me" is intended as a future, much like 
"*if you love* me, I'll be happy". I don't know if the sentence is correct,
but anyway I intend it as "if you have loved me for the next twenty years,
I'll have been happy". Just as wrong? I'm sorry if you had already
understood.
Bye, FB
-- 
"It sounds appalling!"
"Interesting and appalling. The others just sound appalling!"


 knowledge of having been loved , not on having been loved .
You're right. Logic and I are old friends.
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 wrote in message 
news:2v7r9cF...@uni-berlin.de...

Well , on further reflection it is possible to make up a feasible sentence 
on this model :
'If I have understood you correctly , by the end of this year you will have 
moved on to the second phase of your cowshed regeneration project' (though 
there's a bit of linguistic sleight-of-hand here) but you'd not propose this 
as a natural tense sequence , and never an exclusive one , since if + 
pres.perf. is much more naturally followed by other sequences :-
<if + present perfect>=> <present modal +present inf.>
<if + present perfect>=> <present simple>
In my opinion , all this shows is that virtually any sequence of tenses in 
English is possible , and can be plausibly exemplified .
Good luck with your efforts , however ! I've just undertaken (been 
volunteered) to teach a bit of English (on a friendly basis) to two Czechs 
who have come to live in the village  ; we've no common language , and I'm 
just discovering myself how difficult it is to arrive at a systematic 
explanation of English usage ,etc. I'm stuck already on trying to convey the 
uses of the present perfect (and present perfect continuous) and when and 
why we prefer it to the past simple (stuck , that is , because I can't 
formulate for myself a clear and precise set of rules) . Can anyone help ?!
Mike 

 Can anyone help ?!
Mi dispiace di non poter ricambiare la cortesia, ma il mio inglese è ad un
livello piuttosto elementare, e mi sentirei ridicolo a cercare di dare dei
consigli ad un madrelingua. Però in questo ng ci sono alcune persone che mi
sembrano molto preparate, e può darsi che abbiano dei buoni consigli da
darti.
Alla prossima.
Davide


You're right - I was too focussed on the logical absurdity . What about this 
:-
'If you have found inspiration in my suffering , then my life will not have 
been in vain' .
 (though we could just as well say '...then my life has not been in vain.')
'If you have smoked for thirty years , you will have accumulated in your 
lungs enough tar to lay a motorway' (but who cares?)
'If you've ever been to Liverpool , you'll have found that the people are 
very sensitive  (especially to the words 'Boris Johnson')'
I think maybe I misunderstood your purpose , anyway ; I'd assumed that you 
were trying to evolve a set of sequence rules to help  learners ; if (as I 
think) it turns out that virtually every tense in English followed by any 
other tense can be feasibly exemplified , then the information isn't too 
helpful to a learner ; but perhaps you're bent rather on producing an 
exhaustive analysis .

 wrote in message 
news:2v7r9cF...@uni-berlin.de...

Well , on further reflection it is possible to make up a feasible sentence 
on this model :
'If I have understood you correctly , by the end of this year you will have 
moved on to the second phase of your cowshed regeneration project' (though 
there's a bit of linguistic sleight-of-hand here) but you'd not propose this 
as a natural tense sequence , and never an exclusive one , since if + 
pres.perf. is much more naturally followed by other sequences :-
<if + present perfect>=> <present modal +present inf.>
<if + present perfect>=> <present simple>
In my opinion , all this shows is that virtually any sequence of tenses in 
English is possible , and can be plausibly exemplified .
Good luck with your efforts , however ! I've just undertaken (been 
volunteered) to teach a bit of English (on a friendly basis) to two Czechs 


>> Si fa molto fatica a capire il significato, e infatti nessun inglese
All cut
Sorry about the double sending - I've just got SP2 and Broadband , and OE is 
playing up ; some messages it both sends and retains in the Outbox !
Mike

> che dicono i madrelingua.
What am *I* missing:
"If you have loved me" is not equivalent to "se mi avrai amato" but
"se mi hai amato", no?
-- 
This is my opinion of modern, colloquial, American English. 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 "se mi hai amato", no?
How do you say "se mi avrai amato, sarò stato felice" in English?
Bye, FB
-- 
In any case, if you say 'I gotta go' at an important job interview you're
contributing to being allowed just that privilege.
(Tony the ice man on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 then the information isn't too helpful to a learner ;
Non ne sono del tutto sicuro.
Proviamo a scrivere tutti i casi possibili.
Abbiamo già visto questi quattro:
<if + present simple> => <present modal + simple inf.>
<if + present perfect> => <present modal + perfect inf.>
<if + past simple> => <past modal + simple inf.>
<if + past perfect> => <past modal + perfect inf.>
i quali hanno tutti la seguente struttura:
<if + X Y> => <X modal + Y inf.>
X = {present, past}
Y = {simple, perfect}
(In altre strutture più complicate bisogna prevedere per la Y i valori
{simple, perfect, continuous}, ma per il momento lasciamo stare questa
ulteriore complicazione, che porta i casi possibili da 4 a 6.)
Ora aggiungiamo questi:
<if + present simple> => <present simple>
<if + present perfect>=> <present simple>
<if + present perfect>=> <present modal + simple inf.>
come vedi sono tutti del tipo:
<if + *present* + ...> => <*present* + ...>
Quindi se guardiamo il tempo del verbo vero e proprio (cioè quello che regge
la proposizione) abbiamo solo delle concordanze perfette:
present => present
past => past.
Nel ng di linguistica italiana, al thread "consecutio temporum", ho cercato
di mostrare che anche per l'italiano è così.
Un saluto.
Davide

 Bye, FB
I think the concept itself is quite poetic, so the expression can bear some 
resemblance to poetry. I would translate that phrase as "If you will have 
loved me, I will have been happy."
It sounds like the speaker is projecting far into the future, and 
expressing a wish both for the love of the person to whom he's speaking, 
and for his own long-lived* happiness.
*Most people incorrectly say [long-LIVD] (short-I), when the correct 
pronunciation is [long-LAIVD] (with a long-I).


 when the correct pronunciation is [long-LAIVD] (with a long-I).
How so? Is it because "xxx-lived" is an adjective?
Bye, FB
-- 
Locked from the inside. That can only mean one thing, and I don't know what
it is.
(Murder by Death)

 How so? Is it because "xxx-lived" is an adjective?
I assume so.


 wrote in message 
news:13iiyplkf4lgx.1...@40tude.net...

I suppose because it's formed from the noun 'life' (long-lifed) rather than 
the verb 'live'?    cf 'livelihood' (LAIV) , but 'lived-in'(LIV)  .
I was interested in Joey's note , tho , because I've not only never heard 
'long-LAIVd' , but never before seen it suggested as the correct 
pronunciation . But it does seem logical , and I wonder whether there's a 
US/UK distinction here , or whether (since people generally do say 
'long-LIVd') I'd just remained ignorant all this time of the strictly 
correct pronunciation ( there's always something you don't know - I remember 
once losing a fair-sized bet on the pronunciation of 'otiose') .
Mike


Well, 'If you have loved me , I will have been happy' !  I think at the root 
of the confusion is the fact that 'you have loved me' translates both 'mi 
hai amato' and in a future sequence 'mi avrai amato' 'Se mi avrai amato , 
sarò stato felice' sounds OK in Italian because it's standard usage in 
Italian (o mi sbaglio ?) to say e.g. 'quando avrò fatto X , farò Y '(or I 
suppose 'avrò fatto...' , as here) ; whereas in English we can only say 
'When I have done' . Since (see my examples elsewhere in this thread) it's 
perfectly possible to have sentences of the type 'If you have done ... you 
will have done' (where 'if you have done' = 'se hai fatto') , we naturally 
tend to read 'If you have done ...' as a 'real' present perfect, and not as 
what the Italian would give as (more logically) a future perfect . In the 
sequence 'If I have done this , then I will do that' ,'if I have done' could 
be both 'se ho fatto' and 'se avrò fatto' - since both are common ,and the 
context/meaning almost never allows of any confusion , we understand the 
appropriate sense automatically . However , the fact is that I cannot think 
of any realistic examples  (are you reading this , Davide?) of the sequence 
' 'If you have done ... then you will have done' where the 'if you have 
done'= 'se avrai fatto' . But I have to admit the possibility of such a case 
; and I have to admit , FB , that now I look at the original sentence with 
Italian eyes I can see the possibility of it making sense (understanding 'se 
mi avrai amato') , even though an English reader would naturally read it at 
first as nonsense ; so I must save face by at least claiming that I was 
right when I said it was foolhardy to disagree with you twice in a thread !
   So , can anyone think of a natural-sounding sentence with a sequence of 
the type ' If you have done ..., then you will have done' , where 'if you 
have done' = 'se avrai fatto' ?
Mike

 Mike
Wow. I guess one Epiphany deserves another. I have always mispronounced
otiose (not that I use it all that often; [which begs the "offn"/"oftn"
question.] You would have won the bet if it were with me... or no, I guess
it would have been a draw!) and I think it will take me a long time to make
myself pronounce it "correctly".
Maybe I'll just stick with "lazy". :)
