Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: automatic sounds

If a learner begins to listen to his voice recorded, he'll notice that 
he tends to utter extra sounds that make his elocution discontinuous.
Eliminating those sounds is not easy at all, until he realizes he tries 
to pronounce too many sounds. I've come round to the idea that learners 
should learn to read and write in English only after they've learned to 
speak English. I believe that many pronunciation mistakes are induced by 
how a sentence is divided into words.
I'm not speaking of the common errors we all know, but the more subtle 
ones of which I've never seen any mention in any pronunciation course 
I've come across.
Without further ado, let's consider the following short sentence:
   We counted the stars.
"What's the matter with that?" would probably ask a native speaker.
I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I had issues with the linking 
between the words "counted" and "the". I sort of "stumbled" while the 
native speakers *flow* through the sentence.
But I've finally found the solution: just drop the 'd' sound in 
"counted". That's right! It doesn't matter if you drop it: it'll be 
there anywhere!
I think the biggest problem for learners is that they unconsciously 
perceive WORDS as pronunciation units. It's not easy to come to terms 
with one's unconscious.
One way is to write the sentence as
   Wecountedthestars.
and try to pronounce it as if it were a single word.
You'll notice that its pronunciation will become much more easier.
Please note that after a while the "magic" disappears, but that simply 
means that you don't need anymore to consciously drop sounds, write 
sentences as single words, etc...
Consider all this just as a tip for the beginner (many are in 
pronunciation, IMHO!) and a good writing exercise for me :-)
Feel free to differ, but possibly in constructive ways. For instance, if 
you just want to tell me that one shouldn't pay attention to these 
things, please don't bother :-)
Kiuhnm

 things, please don't bother :-)
Hi Kiuhnm,
I agree with what you say. I'll just point out that these phenomena 
(assimilations, compression, elision, juncture, intrusive r,w,j) are
discussed, sometimes at great lengths, in some textbooks on phonetics 
and/or English pronunciation.
For example I can recommend Porcelli, Hotimsky, A handbook of English 
pronunciation, Sugarco Edizioni.
It says, for example:
"The analysis of phonic sequences, clusters, etc. above is mainly valid 
in the cases of formal and accurate speech; in colloquial speech, 
especially if it is fast, there are often other phenomena that modify 
segmental chains, sometimes to a large extent."
Some example of these phenomena quoted in the book are:
ASSIMILATION:
/sS/-> /SS/
horse-show /'ho:SS@U/
horse-shoe /'ho:SSu:/
/nb/ ->/mb/
thin boy -> /Tim'bOI/
/vt/ -> /ft/
move to -> /'mu:ft@/
/d+D/ -> /dd/ (the example you quoted with "counted the")
read these /ri:'ddi:z/
/t+D/ -> /tt/
not the -> /'nOtt@/
/nD/ -> /nn/
in the -> /'inn@/
/d+g/ - >/gg/
bad girl -> /bAg'g3:l/
(and many others!)
COALESCENCE
/dj/ -> /dZ/
/tj/ -> /tS/
what you will -> /'wOtSu'wIl/
ELISION
postman /p@Usm@n/
next question /,neks 'kwestS@n/
stand clear /,stan 'klI@/
(and many others!)
COMPRESSION
diagram /'da@grAm/ (instead of /'daI@grAm/)

 mistakes are induced by how a sentence is divided into words.
In generale, dal fatto che leggiamo ciò che vediamo piuttosto che
riprodurre ciò che sentiamo.

 Some example of these phenomena quoted in the book are:
[...]
That's all very interesting! I only knew some of them.
Thank you for taking the time of writing all that information.
I'll probably buy that book one of these days.
Kiuhnm

 ovvi motivi.
The Pimsleur course might be a viable option.
Kiuhnm

 ovvi motivi.
This had been said here many times -- that one learns to speak a language 
best by hearing it, just as one learns a native language -- and analytical 
measures to assist pronunciation are only a poor last resort for those who 
have difficulty keeping open their sensibilities. 

 have difficulty keeping open their sensibilities. 
Arrogant as ever. Keep up the good work.
Kiuhnm

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You are the last person who should call another arrogant after the history 
of your behavior here. I have only stated, because it agrees with my 
experience, what the main body of those who have made a study of teaching 
languages have said for a long time. 

 wrote in message
news:48e0b617$0$41662$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...
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Such analysis is all perfectly well and good, and may give clues as to the
subtleties of pronunciation, but the ultimate test of the quality of your
recorded pronunciation is to compare it to a native speaker's voice. One
advantage of the Pimsleur method, as you suggest, is that you depend totally
on imitating a native speaker for the initial stages of learning. Pimsleur
also has the advantage of portability.
I am not very familiar with Rosetta Stone, but I understand that the latest
version has improved Speech Analysis features. The native speaker's voice
appears on a graph, with the student's voice on a graph just below it.
«Rosetta Stone uses Speech Analysis to help you evaluate your speech
patterns as you repeat after the native speaker. Graphs on the Speech
Analysis screen show speech patterns.
On speech screens, the native speaker's voice plays at a slow speed and a
Record prompt appears. Mimic the speaker's voice to see a graph of your
voice and use the Record icon to record again. Click the appropriate Speaker
icon to review a recording.»
("Rosetta Stone User's Guide", version 3)
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
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http://weillcornell.onlinelanguagelearning.com/assets/pdfs/user_guides/rs/v3/ENG.pdf
Joe from Massachusetts

 ("Rosetta Stone User's Guide", version 3)
It doesn't work; believe me.
Speech recognition is too immature for such a task.
I've tried Rosetta Stone and many other pieces of software.
Kiuhnm

 wrote in message
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Concerning Rosetta Stone, it's not the speech recognition, but the graphic
display showing an oscillogram of the native speaker's voice along with an
oscillogram of the recorded voice of the student which would interest me.
Unfortunately, even if I had Rosetta Stone, the latest version doesn't run
on W98, and my PC is too slow for most programs when I run XP.
I have a few old language courses which claim to include "Speech
recognition". I found that speaking gibberish in a very loud voice into the
microphone would cause the program to react as if you had spoken the correct
word.
Joe from Massachusetts

 oscillogram of the recorded voice of the student which would interest me.
What do you do with an oscillogram? Power Pronunciation and many other 
programs have one. If you open an audio file in an editor, you'll see 
its "waveform". You don't need Rosetta Stone for that.
Download Audacity (open source) if you want.
Kiuhnm