Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Japan

C'era alla radio un conduttore che  parlava del complesso
musicale "Japan" e accentava la prima sillaba: "giàpan"
 
Ma è giusto? Io direi "giapàn".
 
 
-- 
"We shape our tools and afterwards our tools shape us."
                -- Marshall McLuhan 
 

 Ma è giusto? Io direi "giapàn".
 
giapàn, ma giàpaniz
 

 
 
Really? Not giapan`iz? I find this much more common.
 
-- 
Joey from New York
Among those whom I like or admire, I can findï¿œno common denominator,
but among thoseï¿œwhom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.
ï¿œ ï¿œ-- WH Auden
 

 Really? Not giapan`iz? I find this much more common.
 
Well, both syllables are stressed to some extent, and I've heard it said 
both ways, with the most stress on either. The Merriam Webster online 
dictionary says \ˌja-pə-ˈnēz, -ˈnēs\
 
Mainly, I was just trying to jog ADPUF into verifying for himself 
whether the word said was Japan or Japanese.
 

 both ways, with the most stress on either.
...
 
Generally speaking, it seem to me that native speakers tend to pronounce 
long words as if they were a group of two words, so there are two stressed 
syllables, or at least a primary stress and a secondary stress, like it 
happens in compound words too.
 
 
According to a Wikipedia article,
...
Secondary stress is frequently indicated in the following cases:
 
    In words where the primary stress falls on the third syllable or later. 
Here it is normal for secondary stress to be marked on one of the preceding 
syllables (which cannot normally be the one immediately preceding the 
primary stress). For example, interjection and evolution, which have their 
primary stress on the third syllable, consequently take secondary stress on 
their first syllables; organization and association both have primary stress 
on the fourth syllable, but have secondary stress on the first and second 
syllable respectively.
 
    Where the primary stress falls on the third or fourth syllable from the 
end, a following syllable may be marked with secondary stress.
 
    In many compound words, where one part of the compound is pronounced 
more prominently; here the stressed syllable of the prominent part of the 
compound is marked with primary stress, while the stressed syllable of the 
other part may be marked with secondary stress. For example, 
còunterintélligence [ˌkaʊntər.ɪnˈtɛlɪdʒəns], and cóunterfòil 
[ˈkaʊntərˌfɔɪl]. Dictionaries are not always consistent in this, 
particularly when the secondary stress would come after the primary – for 
instance the foil of counterfoil is transcribed with secondary stress in 
Merriam-Webster dictionaries but not in the OED, although both of them 
assign secondary stress to the counter of counterintelligence.
 
In some dictionaries (particularly American ones), all syllables which 
contain a full (unreduced) vowel are ascribed at least secondary stress, 
particularly when they come after the primary stress (as in the 
counter*foil* example above), although occasionally full vowels before the 
primary stress may also be marked for secondary stress.
Bolinger (1989)[14] notes that such dictionaries make use of the 
secondary-stress mark to distinguish full vowels from reduced vowels in 
unstressed syllables, as they may not have distinct symbols for reduced 
vowels. John Wells remarks, "Some analysts (particularly Americans) argue 
[...] that the presence of a strong [= full] vowel is sufficient evidence 
that the syllable in question is stressed. In the British tradition we 
regard them as unstressed."[13]
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_and_vowel_reduction_in_English#cite_note-Boli-14
 
 

 like it happens in compound words too.
 
Perhaps, but I've never made a study of it. The word "Japanese" is only 
three syllables which doesn't seem very long. In cases of two stressed 
syllables, I expect that there are individual differences in choosing 
which is more stressed. And, people tend to be consistent in their 
preferences. For example, I also stress the first syllable in "Chinese," 
and the second in "Vietnamese." However, I wouldn't think it unusual if 
I heard someone stressing the final syllable in either word.
 
In Italian, there isn't this variation. Calabria is always Calabria, and 
i calabresi are always i calabresi.

 I heard someone stressing the final syllable in either word.
 
I'm curious about your origin, Tony. I think you're in California now but is 
that where you were born/grew up?
 
To me, your pronunciations are unusual: CHI-nese, Viet-NA-mese? I'm used to 
the suffix of nationality -ese almost always being stressed, with secondary 
stresses occurring elsewhere in many words of three or more syllables.
 
For Vietnamese, for example, secondary stress on 'vyet,' nearly none on the 
schwa-syllable 'na' and primary stress on the final. This, despite the name 
of the country bearing stress on 'nam'.
 
--
Joey from New York
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator,
but among those whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.
   -- WH Auden
 

 of the country bearing stress on 'nam'.
 
Well, see? You identified the "yyet" as the second syllable by omitting 
the "vee" from that syllable.
 

):

Tony, thanks for the extensive demographics! I'm not sure what I was looking 
for, but thank you. I guess I was thinking of my paternal grandmother's 
pronunciation of certain words - not all, just certain ones.
 
She and nonno emigrated from Sicily and settled first in Pittsburgh, where 
she learned English. She acquired a magnificent command of the language, with 
the result being that her only "accent" was that of someone from Pittsburgh. 
As an example, the word "fire" was pronounced like "faahr." Nonno also used 
that pronunciation. They eventually moved eastward, to Boston. Of their three 
surviving children, the oldest, Leah, also used "faahr," where the younger 
boys, my uncle and dad, had the long-I pronunciation of dictionaries.
 
I consider the first four letters of "Vietnamese" to be the first syllable, 
"vyet," but in any case, I wasn't referring to syllabification so much as 
alternate stresses in multisyllabic words. Secondary stresses. The OAD lists 
both pronunciations, with your two-syllable vee-yett being the first, my 
one-syllable second.
 
At any rate, thanks for the information.
 
-- 
Joey from New York, formerly BAW-ston.


 
 
la pronuncia è dʒəˈpæn per Japan (Giappone) e ˌdʒæpəˈniːz per Japanese 
(giapponese)
 
-- 
peppino
 

 ha scritto:

Scusate, l'alfabeto fonetico viene reso male...
 
-- 
peppino
 

 boys, my uncle and dad, had the long-I pronunciation of dictionaries.
 
My grandparents never learned much English, except for my Sicilian 
grandmother on my Father's side. My grandfather on my mother's side 
barely spoke a word of English his entire life. However, he could write 
his name in English, a torturous task to watch that required almost a 
full minute of time. When he referred to the bathroom, he sometimes used 
the word 'baggausa' which became part of my very limited "Italian" 
vocabulary, that included counting to ten (diege), and saying "buon 
giorno" and "buona saida."
 
As an adult, I started to study Italian. Some newsgroup readers may 
remember my early baby steps with the language. I was never able to find 
the word "baggausa" in an Italian dictionary. That didn't seem unusual, 
because my grandfather spoke only the dialect of a small town in 
Campan1a. But one day, the realization struck me that he had been saying 
"backhouse," a old term in English for an exterior bathroom, or 
outhouse. So, my grandfather did speak a little English after all, and 
was probably showing off.
 
 

):

Although he was second generation, my Dad also called the bathroom the 
"baccaus," probably (as well as he knew) the only word of "Italian" he 
learned. I had the same revelation when I realized he was saying "back 
house."
 
Enna (nonno) and Villa Rosa (Mama D) were his parents' points of origin.
 
-- 
Joey from New York


 For the most part I have remained in the sunshine state.
 
Oops! I realized that this statement could be confused with the nickname 
of Florida, which is The Sunshine State. Although I've vacationed in 
Florida, I can't say that I've had long experience with the local 
culture and manner of speaking. California, with the nickname, The 
Golden State, also offers sunshine and even better weather, and I was 
referring to that.
 

 calabresi are always i calabresi.
 
Yes, i calabresi are always i calabresi.
Still, gli scandìnavi are sometimes gli scandinàvi! :) 
 

 For the most part I have remained in the sunshine state.
 
And that is? :)
From context I understand it's California, but Wikipedia makes me wonder...
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_State
 
...
The nickname of the U.S. state of Florida; it also has been used for New 
Mexico, California, and South Dakota
Sunshine State (film), a 2002 film set in Florida
 

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:keh764$5v8$1...@dont-email.me...

So, you live in Terminator's" State :D
Well, actually not any more. Jerry is back!
 
Wikipedia lists a whole bunch of nicknames for California:
    El Dorado State
    The Golden State[12][13] (previously used on license plates)
    The Land of Sunshine and Opportunity
    Golden West
    Grape State
    Land of Milk and Honey
    Land of Fruits and Nuts
    Where Stars Are Buried
    The Cereal Bowl of the Nation
    The Eureka State [14]
    The Bear State (or Republic)
    The Sunshine State (in disuse) (c.f. FL)
 
 

 wonder...
 
Guarda il mio post di cinque ore fa. Insomma, lo stato d'oro.
 

 In Chinese, do you stress the first syllable only?
 
There are only two syllables, so, how do you judge if the less stressed 
syllable is still considered stressed? Isn't stress relative? But, to 
give a simple answer to your question, yes, both are stressed. And, some 
people will emphasize the second syllable more than the first.
 
So, you can't go wrong. But, let me exit with a reminder of the famous 
chines proverb: "Be reasonable, do it my way!"
 

 sunshine and even better weather, and I was referring to that.
 
 
Californa is quite a large state.
 
The Northern part shouldn't be very sunny and "well weathered".
 
"The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco,"
a saying that is almost a San Francisco clichï¿œ, turns out to be
an invention of unknown origin, the coolest thing Mark Twain
never said.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/30/coldest-winter/
 
 
 
-- 
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is
better than not to think at all."
                -- Hypatia of Alexandria 
 

 
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/30/coldest-winter/
 
 
You should visit, especially in August. But, I won't say more about the 
weather. That is fairly well-documented. I'll just say that my personal 
experience, having been born on the east coast, having traveled 
throughout the United States, having visited Italy many times, and 
having traveled around the world, is that California's reputation is 
well-deserved.
 

 The Northern part shouldn't be very sunny and "well weathered".
 
Chiedo scusa, ma mi viene un dubbio: ï¿œ comune usare "shouldn't" come in 
questa frase, cioï¿œ con il significato in sostanza di "non credo che sia" (e 
non riferito a una previsione di ciï¿œ che "expected" o "likely to happen")?
 


La parola "comune" ï¿œ una sorta relativa. Penso che, perchï¿œ del contesto, 
l'uso sia piï¿œ comune in Inghilterra, ma ï¿œ anche accettabile negli Stati 
Uniti. In altri contesti, ï¿œ piï¿œ comune, per esempio:
 
Edevils: <<I'm going to San Franciso in August. Do you think it will be 
too cold?>>
ADPUF: <<No, It shouldn't be too cold.>>
 
Allora, la frase che non ï¿œ comune ï¿œ "well weathered." Ha una 
connotazione d'essere segnato dalle intemperie.
 
 
 

 d'essere segnato dalle intemperie.
 
Looks like it's often used in a figurative sense, as in
 
"...the deeply furrowed and well-weathered face of a one-eyed old woman." 
 

 old woman."
 
 
Non ero sicuro che "well weathered" fosse una forma esistente
per cui l'ho messa tra virgolette.
 
 
-- 
Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral?
It is because we are not the person involved.
    -- Mark Twain
 

Tony the Ice Man, 03:59, domenica 3 febbraio 2013:

Italy and California both span about 10 degrees of latitude,
that means something with regard to climate.
 
In fact according to Koeppen southern California has a
mediterranean climate.
 
Wikipedia includes Seattle in this type of climate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kï¿œppen_climate_classification
 
Northern California has a more oceanic climate, methinks.
 
But since american mountain ranges go parallel to the western
coast there are great variations with longitude especially on
rain quantity.
 
Italy has a similar East-West divide, in addition to the obvious
north-south gradient.
 
 
-- 
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to
alter it every six months.
    -- Oscar Wilde