Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: glottal stop... again

How do native AmE speakers pronounce "Don't adults know that?" or 
"Doesn't Adam know that?".
 
I'm interested in the 't' sound in "Don't" and "Doesn't" when followed 
by a vowel sound as in those two sentences.
 
I think one should use a glottal stop so as to avoid the sound "ta". 
That is, the two sentences above shouldn't sound as "Don tadults know 
that?" and "Doesn tadam know that?"
 
-- 
Kiuhnm
 
- Alzeresti un po' il climatizzatore?
- Nel senso di alzare la temperatura o la potenza?
- Nel senso che ci sbatto sempre la testa.

 
 
I agree with you, one should.
 
In answer to your question about native speakers, I think you already 
know the answer: some articulate clearly and some just want to get the 
words out as quickly as possible.
 
You can always say to the person speaking that you didn't understand 
what they said, and some will then speak slowly and carefully, while 
others will just raise the volume of their voices to thrash your ears 
into comprehension.


I'm still a lone wannabe English speaker, so I talk to myself when no 
ones's around :) I also read novels out loud (but not too loud) and 
consult online dictionaries any time I have doubts about the 
pronunciation of some word. Unfortunately, dictionaries are pretty 
useless when it comes to connected speech.
It goes without saying that I also watch movies and TV shows, but my 
memory is what it is and I might still have doubts about things I've 
probably heard over and over again. That's how things (don't) work :(


 ones's around :) I also read novels out loud (but not too loud) and 
 
when no one's around


 "Doesn tadam know that?"
 
 
Son cose che cerco di capire anch'io.
Non so però se il glottal stop in questo caso dipenda dall'essere 
seguito da vocale o semplicemente sia implicito nella pronuncia veloce 
del gruppo "nt" in "doesn't" come in "couldn't", "shouldn't", 
"wouldn't", "wasn't", "haven't"...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dthn7A9AmaM
 
 
-- 
IdP
 
 
"Les plus belles âmes sont celles qui ont plus de variété et de 
souplesse." (Michel de Montaigne)

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dthn7A9AmaM
 
 
Se capisco bene quanto insegna Rachel, la «t» di -n't non è 
pronunciata come dentale, bensì sostituita con il colpo di glottide. 
E ciò indipendentemente dal suono seguente, che sia vocalico o meno.
 
Il mio problema è l'articolazione di un colpo di glottide senza che 
segua una vocale. Dev'essersi nati anglofoni per riuscirci. :)
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang


You do it all the times when you cough. You just need to cut the airflow 
through the glottis and then you're free to articulate the next sound. 
You should remain in apnea.
I'd try with "fight among": hold the 't' sound and while holding it (in 
apnea) stop the airflow through the glottis. Now relax your tongue. You 
should still be in apnea so no sound should be emitted. Now you can 
pronounce "down".
Now instead of holding the 't' and then switch to the glottal stop, 
replace the 't' with the glottal stop. It should be easy by now. I'm not 
saying you should pronounce "fight among" that way: it's just an exercise.



Sorry, I meant "among".


 exercise.
 
As already pointed out above, the glottal stop is no problem as long 
as a vowel follows, in your example the initial schwa of "among". My 
problem, however, is pronouncing the glottal stop without a 
subsequent vowel, and this case is not covered by your exercise.
 
Don't forget I'm German, and in my official language - not the 
current speech - a glottal stop precedes every word with an initial 
vowel. I also tried to learn pronouncing the Danish stød, which may 
occur in any impredictible position. I even had a dicussion on this 
topic in a Danish newsgroup. I met very nice people there, and two 
of the participants even sent me an audio file with examples, one of 
which I still remember: It was the last name of great Danish 
linguist Louis Hjelmslev (1899-1965), which has a stød between the 
"l" and the "m", which I did not even perceive, nor - figuriamoci! - 
pronounce. At length I gave up.
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dthn7A9AmaM
 
 
E a quanto pare si usa anche in UK.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chcjHwWwVxQ
 
 
-- 
IdP
 
 
"And so sepúlchred in such pomp dost lie, / That kings for such a tomb 
would wish to die." (John Milton)


Come pronunciano "Don't" e "Doesn't" quelli che non articolano 
chiaramente? Non ho capito se ti riferisci al glottal stop o ad altro.
 
-- 
IdP
 
 
"Here's looking at you, kid."  (Rick Blaine)

 pronounce. At length I gave up.
 
No, anche quello danese no! Help! :D :D
 
-- 
IdP
 
 
"Every night and every morn / Some to misery are born; / Every morn and 
every night / Some are born to sweet delight" (William Blake)


Have you tested your English with voice recognition software? If English 
voice recognition software accurately transcribes the English words you 
speak then your pronunciation is close to standard.


Se si parla velocemente, si può unire il "t" con la parole che segue, 
per esempio "don taldults" invece di "don't adults."
 

 not even perceive, nor - figuriamoci! - pronounce. At length I gave up.
 
I understand your predicament, but I assure you my exercise works 
regardless of there being a vowel or a consonant sound after the glottal 
stop. A glottal stop splits a sentence in such a way that what follows 
it is completely independent of what precedes it. Maybe I wasn't clear 
enough in my description of the phases:
1. pronounce "fight" holding the 't'
    [apnea: t-holding]
2. cut the air through your glottis (as if about to cough)
    -> [apnea: t-holding + closed-glottis]
3. release the 't'
    -> [apnea: closed-glottis]
4. pronounce the next word
    -> []
 
Don't think about the glottal stop as a "colpo di glottide". Think of it 
as something you can hold indefinitely (well, until you run out of oxygen).
 
Note that the "t-holding" and the "glottal stop" overlap:
t:    -----------
g-s:         -----------
so you're in apnea from the end of point 1 to the start of point 4, 
without any interruption.


 speak then your pronunciation is close to standard.
 
Recognition software is getting smarter and smarter (so to speak) and 
nowadays it can understand you even when you speak with a heavy 
non-standard accent. That said, I think my pronunciation is pretty good, 
so I'm not worried about not being understood: I'm just trying to clear 
any lingering doubts.


 enough in my description of the phases:
 
clear enough *with*...?


 That's how things (don't) work :(
 
Maybe "That's the way things are".


 that?" and "Doesn tadam know that?"
 
To the ng:
   See my new signature. I hope you get the joke.
 
-- 
Kiuhnm
- Do you spend much time on the Internet?
- No, I prefer the Outernet.
 

 No, anche quello danese no! Help! :D :D
 
Hai ragione, dev'essersi nati danesi per riuscire a pronunciare lo 
stød, requisito non posseduto né da te né da me: accontentiamoci di 
quello che abbiamo!
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 point 4, without any interruption.
 
Ti ringrazio per la chiarissima istruzione. Seguendola, cercherò di 
esercitarmi nella nobile arte della pronuncia del colpo di glottide.
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 esercitarmi nella nobile arte della pronuncia del colpo di glottide.
 
But don't overdo it! Take long breaks between sessions :)


   See my new signature. I hope you get the joke.
 
Too obvious, too stupid? :(


 
 
It is unusual that you focus on this new byline and point it out to 
everyone, and then ask for comments. Then, to ask again when no one 
takes the bait. So, it must be important to you in some way. It must 
have some special meaning because you are not a person prone to 
superficiality, except perhaps when you ask a question and already know 
the answer, but I think you do that just to generate discussion.
 
So, you put us in a delicate situation. Perhaps we don't understand your 
meaning, and we feel stupid. Perhaps we think it is obvious and stupid, 
and we hurt your feelings. Perhaps we think this is the same kind of 
throwaway comment we might make, reversing a couple of words, in a 
obsessive attempt to amuse ourselves and keep our minds occupied, and we 
realize that compulsive activity may seem insipid to others. Perhaps, we 
think it's OK to make insipid comments to our close friends who know us 
well, but not in a public newsgroup where participants put a value on 
insight. Perhaps we have noticed this technique of reversing words in a 
Bob Dylan song, or other poetic work, and have argued with friends about 
whether it is clever, or a cheap ploy to make the mundane sound 
interesting. Perhaps it isn't a play on words, but a reference to the 
technology of the New York company Outernet.
 
So, you see, it is not because I haven't given your byline enough 
thought, that I have to say, either I don't get the joke, or I don't 
think it is very funny, and perhaps you should rephrase it, beginning 
with "there are 10 types of nets in the world..."

 the answer, but I think you do that just to generate discussion.
 
I thought it was important to the thread!
Since we were talking about the 't' sound and how it gets replaced with 
a glottal stop after nasal sounds, etc..., I wanted to point out, with a 
stupid joke, that AmE speakers sometimes remove the 't' completely and 
say, for instance, "tweny" instead of "twenty".
The same happens with "Internet" which is almost always pronounced as 
"In(n)ernet" so I made a pun on "inner": I prefer the Outernet to the 
Innernet. The pun works better when it's read out loud by lazy people :)



OK, so it seems that I didn't get it at all.
 
That was some convoluted logic there, of the kind that I'm more used to 
in explanations of religion than of jokes.
 
But to play along, because "intra-" means on the inside or within, I 
still considered it an antonym for outer but was unaware of your 
idiolectic higher-level semiotic connotations.

 idiolectic higher-level semiotic connotations.
 
Well, since intranet and internet were already taken I decided to 
contrast "innernet" with "outernet".
I know one shouldn't defend their own jokes too much. Either they work 
or they don't, but I wanted to explain my thought process.
Thank you for replying, by the way. I appreciate that.


 But don't overdo it! Take long breaks between sessions :)
 
Apnea may become dangerous, I know. :)
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 Apnea may become dangerous, I know. :)
 


 generate discussion.
 
A volte facciamo "domande" non perché non abbiamo la minima idea della 
risposta ma per verificare le nostre conoscenze e sentire cosa abbiano 
da dire gli altri al proposito. Se si genera una discussione 
interessante, tanto di guadagnato. Non abbiamo certo il problema della 
eccessiva abbondanza di post :D
Anche la battuta di K. in firma, che anch'io all'inizio non avevo colto 
leggendola di sfuggita (quindi mi chiedevo anch'io perché mai volesse 
attirare attenzione sulla firma) una volta capita è tutto sommato un 
contributo alla discussione.
 
-- 
IdP
 
 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." (Anonimo)

 is more natural.
 
In many cases the choice of the mood is not logical, but only 
conventional. For instance, "quando" is normally used with the 
indicative, whereas the synonymous "qualora" requires the subjunctive.
 
An Italian and a German discuss on Italian grammar in English - a 
somewhat surreal situation. Anyway, there is now some hope that 
building the Babelian Tower would not fail any more. :)
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang