Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: "Attempt" in inglese americano.

Oltreché "tentativo" "attempt", in inglese britannico, viene usato anche nel
senso di "attentato" (vedasi, ad esempio, il Collins online, English
definition).
Un mio amico americano, che ha fatto per molti anni l'avvocato negli USA, mi
dice che in inglese americano non ha mai quest'ultimo  significato.
Che ne dicono gli esperti?  Grazie. Studio Bianchi.


E' rarissimo anche in inglese GB; mi sembra che venga usato solo nella
frase "an attempt on the life of X", cioč un tentativo (fallito) di
uccidere X. Non mi risulta che venga usato per un attentato che va a
buon fine.
Normalmente, bisogna trovare una parafrasi, perché non esiste un
traducente unico.
Se, per esempio, si tratta di un attentato nel quale vengano usate le
bombe, si parla di "bombing"; in altre circostanze vanno bene "attack",
"shooting", ecc.
-- 
Mary

Che ne dicono gli esperti? 
Well, let's wait until they show up. :)
Sebastiano

 Well, let's wait until they show up. :)
Sono già arrivati, hanno parlato, ed io concordo.
("Loro" sono Mary e quel amerreggano ... ammerre... amerega... quello
Yankee di Sebapop - chi non mangia la pasta) :)
-- 
The foregoing is my opinion, and my opinion alone. It is intended to
demonstrate modern American English -- colloquial and spoken, (but well
spoken) for the most part; not literary American English. Ergo, caveat
lector. (No, not you, Hannibal)
Oh, if you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 Yankee di Sebapop - chi non mangia la pasta) :)
Your French is influencing you here: 
http://snipurl.com/7jt8
.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

Yankee di Sebapop - chi non mangia la pasta) :)
ROTFL. :)
Still not eating pasta. :)
It's too hot these days.
I had lunch two hours ago. I had some some gorgonzola, a chunk of a
strange cheese with radicchio in it - love it! - and some "bergarder",
a sort of "solid" and spicy gorgonzola . Very tasty, but I can't find
information about it on the net. I guess it's some sort of alias for
"gorgonzola piccante".
Sebastiano/btw, it's "ammeregano".

 Your French is influencing you here: 
http://snipurl.com/7jt8
.
Yes. That's a mistake I make frequently. Thanks for pointing it out.


 Still not eating pasta. :)
Don't tell me you behave like Alberto Sordi in that film (what's the
title?) in which he, pretending to be an American, was sitting at table
alone in front a dish of macaroni and said "Macaroni! Ti distruggo, są!".
Then, having mixed some combination of sauces and having found it
disgusting, he gives in and comes back to that dish, eating the pasta with
hunger. :)
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
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ab...@newsland.it

 hunger. :)
"Un americano a Roma"...
"All rigth Americano,vai sempre dritto non girą a destra che c'č er fosso da
Maranella,right?All right Americą..."
Americano:"oh yes,right!"
Raudo Americano de Roma
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 Raudo Americano de Roma
 ROTFL. Già, divertentissimo quel film


hunger. :)
ROTFL!
No, it's not like that. I like pasta, but I've been eating it for 24
years. I'm kind of fed up with it. I've never been a pasta lover, I
prefer what we call "second courses". I love rice, though.
Sebastiano

  I love rice, though.
Northerner! :)


Northerner! :)
How dare you! ;)
Yeah, I love polenta. And I love hot chillies. I love Calabrian spicy
sausages and 'nduja, I love Moroccan Harissa, I love Chinese Food (the
Szechuan variety is one of my favorites), I love Indian Food, I adore
Mexican Food, I love Arabic Food (Mint Green Tea, al-shaay binna`naa`)
and so on. When it comes to food, I'm a world guy. ;)
Sebastiano

 -- 
Un italiano che non mangia la pasta! Roba da matti!  O forse meglio
''Roba da tutimati"!
Joe from Massachusetts

''Roba da tutimati"!
LOL
Sebastiano

 Northerner! :)
Well, there was a period in my life (I was in my late teens) in which I
did not like pasta and avoided it altogether whenever I could, but I liked
rice, especially risotto, very much like Sebapop, or at most I would eat
tortellini. And that despite I am a deep Italian southerner ;)
My mum was almost desperate at that time.
Then, I changed my mind about food and rediscovered some old tastes.
Perhaps I subconsciously knew that one day I would give my nick a bad
name, had I not resumed the old style, even improving it...:)



And if you haven't already tasted,try african food like zighini'..i love
eating by hands,it trows you back in time ,and lets you feel some sort of
wild...and at the end try the tipical coffee with *zenzero* !
Raudo


> I love 
 >> I love
 >> I love
 >> I love
 >> I love
I hate foodies.
sq


Why?I think there's only one thing as good as eat! O:-)
Maybe you prefer drinks?
Raudo & Life's Pleasures


 name, had I not resumed the old style, even improving it...:)
The if-clause seems wrong to me.
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 The if-clause seems wrong to me.
How would you write it?


 Bye, FB
It seems fine to me.


I hate foodies.
I am not a foodie. :) I love tasting different types of food, that's
true. I love ethnic food, and blah, blah, blah.
But I don't give food much importance. :)
Sebastiano

wild...and at the end try the tipical coffee with *zenzero* !
Gotcha!
Sebastiano

 But I don't give food much importance. :)
I've always known you for a very cool cat (just watching a tad too much 
TV!!!)

 It seems fine to me.
"I knew that I would give..., if I didn't resume..." (that is "I know I
will give..., if I don't resume...")
or
"I knew that I would have given..., if I hadn't resumed (or "had I not
resumed")..."
Right?
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

TV!!!)
That's for sure. :)
Sebastiano

 Bye, FB
Ok, now I see what you're getting at. It's that old sequence of tenses
thing. Yours in not wrong, by any means, but also not necessary. I'm
assuming the writer was using casual discourse, with a bit of flair (the
"had I not..." phrase is elegant) and in my opinion, perfectly correct. In
fact, having to follow the rules to the extent of putting the principle
phrase into the present conditional almost makes it more awkward. You also
changed the syntax from "perhaps I knew" to "if I knew", which is
different.


 different.
Sorry. Ignore this last comment. I re-read your post. You didn't do what I
"accused" you of. :(


 Right?
You are talking about the third conditional, which indicates a
hypothetical action which can happen no more. There a mixed-type of unreal
condition in which the idea of the future is better expressed. For example:
If you had warned me [then], I would not be in prison [now].
It describes an action which is made as a consequence of the if-clause
which happened in the past, and it is continued until today. That is the
case of giving my nick a bad name, which in fact I would be doing each
time I write a post, say yesterday, today or even tomorrow.
Just give a look here in which this kind of sentence is better explained
http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/conditional2.htm


 time I write a post, say yesterday, today or even tomorrow.
Here's your sentence:
"Perhaps I subconsciously knew that one day I would give my nick a bad
name, had I not resumed the old style, even improving it..."
I might have understood. If I have, your sentence in the present tense
would be:
"Perhaps I subconsciously know that one day I will give my nick a bad name,
if I haven't resumed the old style". 
You want to say "se non avessi, nel frattempo, ...", right?
Incidentally, I don't see at all what "I would give my nick a bad name"
means, but that's another story.
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 if I haven't resumed the old style".
This is not a good sentence. I would say it this way in the present tense:
Perhaps I subconsciously know that one day I will give my nick a bad name,
if I don't resume the old style.



Why the present tense, when he's talking about the past?
I would suggest:
"Perhaps I subconsciously knew that one day I would give my nick a bad
name, if I did not resume the old style, even improve (upon) it."
Unless you are suggesting in your own devious way that he still
doesn't eat pasta? :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 doesn't eat pasta? :>)
Because FB was trying (I believe) to re-cast the sentence in the present
tense.


 if I don't resume the old style.
That's what I thought, but it's not quite the same thing. In Italian we
have the "futuro semplice" and the "futuro anteriore" (perdona l'esempio
tragicomico):
1a) "A mezzanotte, se non pagherà il riscatto non rivedrà sua suocera"
2a) "A mezzanotte, se non avrà pagato il riscatto (entro mezzanotte) non
rivedrà sua suocera"
In English the "futuro semplice" (future simple) is "will pay", the "futuro
anteriore" (future perfect) is "will have paid". Even so, if you have a
future perfect in a subordinate clause, the main clause being in the future
tense as well, you leave out "will". The above sentences thus translate:
1b)"At midnight, if you don't pay the ransom, you will never see your
mother(-in-law) again"
2b)"At midnight, if you haven't paid the ransom, you will never see your
mother(-in-law) again".
They don't mean the same. Sentence 1b) means that you are to pay the ransom
at midnight; sentence 2b) means that at midnight you are supposed to have
had the ransom paid.
Are you sure, then, that the sentence 2b) is wrong? I stand corrected in
advance, just in case... (smiling face)


> name, had I not resumed the old style, even improving it...:)
I repeat it here, because I think we're losing the original focus. The
sentence, as it stands is fine.


 sentence, as it stands is fine.
And I think that is the past form of:
"Perhaps I subconsciously know that one day I will give my nick a bad name,
if I haven't resumed the old style, even improving it..." *
Otherwise, either the sentence is wrong or I don't understand at all its
meaning. (curious face) Help!
* if I haven't succeeded, by then, in resuming the old style




Perhaps I subconsiously knew (in the past) that one day I would give (at
some point either in the past or the future) my nick a bad name, had I not
(at some point in the past) resumed the old style.
When you change both the tense and the syntax, you're effectively changing
the sentence altogether. The present-tense version should be "Perhaps... if
I didn't resume the old style..." There is no present-tense version of "had
I (not) <past participle>"
I knew I would fail the test, had I not studied.
I knew I would fail the test if I didn't study.
I know I will fail the test if I don't study.
I knew I failed the test because I didn't study.
I know I'm going to fail the test because I didn't study.
Don't belabor it or you'll get lost. I hope that clarifies it a little.


 I know I will fail the test if I don't study.
O.K.
Coffee, I need coffee!!!
Bye, FB
-- 
"Nasalization is just a part of life"
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 Bye, FB


 wrote in message
news:1jo3cu60r8c1x.1gdu3d5lf644a$.dlg@40tude.net...

I disagree, much along the same lines as FB.
Original sentence:
Perhaps I subconsciously knew that one day I would give my nick a bad
name, had I not resumed the old style, even improving it.
Equivalent to original, for clarity:
Perhaps I subconsciously knew that if I had not resumed the old style,
even improving it, one day I would give my nick a bad name.
It seems to me that one of the two clauses must change tense for the
sentence to be correct:
If clause: If + subject + past perfect tense; independent clause:
subject + modal + have + past participle
Perhaps I subconsciously knew that if I had not resumed the old style,
even improving it, one day I would have given my nick a bad name.
( Perhaps I subconsciously knew that one day I would have given my
nick a bad name, had I not resumed the old style, even improving it.)
If clause: If + subject+past tense; independent clause: subject +
would/could/might + simple form of verb
Perhaps I subconsciously knew that if I did not resume the old style,
even improving it, one day I would give my nick a bad name.
(Perhaps I subconsciously knew that one day I would give my nick a bad
name, if I did not resume the old style, even improving it).
Joe from Massachusetts

 Sorry, I've drunk it all. :)
All that coffee is not good at all for your health. Have you considered
switching to dog rose tisane? It's fantastic.


 I disagree, much along the same lines as FB.
That's exactly what I thought. But then I figured out another possibility.
Do you think this sentence makes sense?
"Perhaps I subconsciously know that if I have not resumed * the old style,
even improving it, one day I will give my nick a bad name." 
It does, in my opinion. If you think it does, then Sud's original sentence
would be its past form.
* future perfect. "Will" is left out as the main clause also is in the
future. The Italian for "will have not resumed" is "se non avrņ ripreso".
P.S. Sud: don't you dare write something like that ever again! (witty face)


 future. The Italian for "will have not resumed" is "se non avrņ ripreso".
The Italian for "will not have resumed".


 I disagree, much along the same lines as FB.
What about "I disagree, much along the same lines as FB's"?. Sorry for
nit-picking.


 Original sentence:
And I disagree on the grounds that the original sentence, in a spoken
context, is fine, is of a type heard every day, and is seldom commented on
as bad grammar or lacking syntax.


 nit-picking.
I disagree, much along the same lines as FB (does)(disagrees).
Or, "My disagreement is much along the same lines as FB's is.
Or, "My disagreement is much along the same lines as FB's
(disagreement).
Joe from Massachusetts

 P.S. Sud: don't you dare write something like that ever again! (witty face)
Well, had I known in advance my sentence would cause a ng atomic
explosion, er....hmmm...no, I'd better not finish this sentence...I don't
know what the tense is ...;)
By the way, I was thinking that even in Italian we have an equivalent
construction. Compare, for example,
"Se fossi partito prima saresti arrivato in tempo"
and
"se fossi partito prima saresti già qui"
As far as I was taught at school, where we all know there are many
teachers that are particularly enthusiastic of strict grammar rules but
care a little less about pronunciation, you can use the second example in
Italian only if the action produced as a consequence of the if-clause is
continued up to the present, that is "saresti qui", whilst you can use the
corresponding English form also in case the action occurs in a determinate
instant of the future,
"That man told her that if she had not found a proper dress, she would not
probably be allowed to enter the party the next day".


 wrote in message
news:ccj5ad$80i$1...@news.newsland.it...

As previously, either "she had not found" changes to "she didn't
find", or "she would not ...be allowed" changes to "she would not ...
have been allowed".
What sentence in Italian is this supposed to be equivalent to?
Joe from Massachusetts

 "se fossi partito prima saresti già qui"
But you can say the latter sentence if you know the person didn't leave
earlier.
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

joscurtin ha scritto:

As I stated in the previous post, this was meant to be, but may be wrong,
an example of sentence which has in fact no equivalent Italian version.
You can only say that in Italian as long as the subsequent action is
continued until now and not confined in a determinate moment of the past


 earlier.
So you are saying that the if-clause must not have taken place in order to
allowed to use this construction. Well, that is exactly what happened to
the original sentence "had I not resumed the old style...".
I resumed the old style, negating the proposition, which contains "not",
didn't I? I don't see the difference...
Let us consider this one:
"se non avessi recuperato il vecchio stile, non meriterei di portare il
mio attuale nick".
Do you find it wrong?


 continued until now and not confined in a determinate moment of the past
"If you had warned me [then], I would not be in prison [now]."
You can say so if you are in prison and the other person has actually not
warned you.


 Do you find it wrong?
"Perhaps I subconsciously knew that one day I would give my nick a bad
name, had I not resumed the old style, even improving it...:)"
"One day" makes me think you're talking about the future: you haven't yet
resumed your old style.
Ciao, FB


 have been allowed".
To me, these changes cause significant differences in meaning, and the last
doesn't seem logical to me.
The first change mentioned above:
"That man told her that if she *had not found* a proper dress, she would
*probably not be allowed to enter the party the next day." 
(She has found a proper dress; the party is tomorrow.)
   *("Probably not" is better word order than "not probably")
"That man told her that if she *didn't find* a proper dress, she would
probably not be allowed to enter the party the next day."
(She has not yet found a proper dress. The party is tomorrow.)
The second change mentioned above:
"That man told her that if she had not found a proper dress, she would
probably not have been allowed to enter the party the next day."
(This doesn't make sense: it refers to a future event (the party the next
day) to which she "would not have been allowed to enter." (And the
*implication* of "she would not have been allowed" is that she *has* been
allowed [to enter tomorrow's party]."
If you remove the reference to tomorrow, the sentence works but only as a
reference to past-tense events.
"That man told her that if she had not found a proper dress, she would
probably not have been allowed to enter the party." (She has or had been
allowed to enter; the party is either going on now or it's over.)


 resumed your old style.
Well, to me "one day" refers to the "giving my nick a bad name" sentence
alone, not to the if-clause. Moreover, "one day" is the future relative to
the time in which the action resuming the old style, which happened in the
past. Therefore, "one day" may be even today or yesterday if the style was
resumed 10 years ago. The sentence in question begins with "Perhaps I
subconsciously knew...", so the subsequent future location of the whole
action should be relative to that moment in which I became subconsciously
aware of that. To me there's no connection with the present in the whole
sentence, so it should not suggest that I have not resumed the old style
yet.


 warned you.
Of course it always refers an action in which the if-clause has not
actually happened, but it is the same case as in my original sentence.
"Had I not resumed the old style"
I resumed it, so I did not give a bad name to my nick.
I was not warned, so I went to prison.
Where's the difference between the two examples?


 Where's the difference between the two examples?
If you meant it in this way, I think it's correct. The fact is that you
said "one day", so I supposed you were talking about the future ("sapevo
che, se non avessi, in futuro, recuperato il mio vecchio stile..."). I
gather, now, you were speculating about what might have happened in the
past, but in fact hasn't happened.


 past, but in fact hasn't happened.
In the mean time, I just forgot what the original sentence was...;)
May be it happened because, after all, they were only subconscious
speculations


 speculations
I hate subconscious speculations!
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 had the ransom paid.
Joey, as you don't think sentence 2b is wrong, do you think it could be put
into a past form as follows?
"(They told me that) at midnight, if I had not paid the ransom, I would
never see my mother(-in-law) again." (or "I was never to see...")
Bye, FB


 I hate subconscious speculations!
You see, I'm suddenly starting to dislike them too. In fact, had I not
come across that...oh no...not that again! Let's stop this torture, please
;)
From now on, only present and simple past. Present reminds me of gifts,
and past looks like pasta. Yeah, good!


 Bye, FB
And if the person did leave earlier, or it is not known whether
(s)he left or not, would it not be:
   "se fossi partito prima ci saresti già stato/a"  ??
-- 
Dale Erwin
Salamanca 116
Pueblo Libre
Lima 21 PERU
Tel. +51(1)461-3084
Cel. +51(1)9743-6439
DALE ERWIN'S OPERA FILES - 
http://www.geocities.com/dale_erwin

 never see my mother(-in-law) again." (or "I was never to see...")
The first part sounds fine to my discerning ears. (But not "I was never to
see..." it doesn't sound natural.)


 and past looks like pasta. Yeah, good!
Worse than subconsious speculations are unconscious speculations. I have
them all the time. (Usually in Turkish.)
But I agree: only simple tenses from now on. Let's adopt the Chinese
method: only ONE tense exists; you can indicate past or future, completion
or incompletion, with supplementary words. I like it


 wrote in message
news:1h2um596i8qjk$.vilyq4gu8soq.dlg@40tude.net...

Wo(e) is me.
Or is it  Wo is I?
It seems to me that since so many Chinese words are monosyllabic, the
Chinese must have run out of syllables a long time ago, and don't have
any left over to make up meaningless words, like we can. I can make up
a word like snuptregfos. The syllables and the word they make up mean
absolutely nothing in English (at least I don't think they do). If a
Chinese makes up a word, he has to use syllables already assigned as
words, therefore a made-up word would be something like
"ox-oar-snout". As a whole, it is meaningless (at least I think it
is), but it is made up of syllables which have meaning. I think I
shall retire to my "ottoman" and ponder the validity of such
speculation.
Joe from Massachusetts

 Or is it  Wo is I?
It's "woe is me" (the "to" is understood.)
For me (who have studied Chinese going onto 12 years) the real problem is
that each of those monosyllables can mean a large number of things.
Sometimes it's the tone that indicates the meaning; other times, the same
monosyllable spoken with the same tone can mean many things, and you have
to rely on the context for the meaning. There's even only one form of
personal pronoun, and it can be subject, object (direct or indirect) or
possessive.
At first, I thought "This will be easy. No verb tenses, no plurals, no
(pro-)noun cases; what could be easier?"
It would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than
for someone such as I to learn Chinese. I think Ancient Greek would be
easier.
Now *that's* something on which to speculate.


 or incompletion, with supplementary words. I like it
This promise I made reminds me of a recommendation that a Scotsman
colleague of mine once made to an Italian waiter who could manage a few
English words. He told him: "No more English girls!". Don't know why,
really, but it does. No more conditional and subjuntive :)


 Scotsman colleague of mine
Of course that is "a Scottish colleague of mine", or "a Scotsman, a
colleague of mine". Phew!


 really, but it does. No more conditional and subjuntive :)
LOL
