Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Periodo ipotetico

Salve a tutti!
Ho sempre pensato che la vicinanza di "would" nei pressi della particella
ipotetica "if" fosse da evitare come il diavolo.
Ed quindi condanno sempre aspramente coloro i quali impunemente ci propinano
l'orrendo "if I would have known" dicendo loro che la forma corretta è "if I
had known", perché "would" avrebbe funzione ausiliaria e tradurrebbe il
condizionale del verbo che segue; ragion per cui "would" osterebbe con la
presenza della particella "if" che esige al contrario il congiuntivo (che
credo sia rappresentato dal passato degli ausiliari "to be" e "to have"). È
un po' come se si dicesse in italiano "Se avrei saputo..."; roba da far
accaponare la pelle!
Per cui ho sempre detto:
"if you knew me, you would..."
"if you had known me, you would have..."
Sbaglio?
Ed al riguardo mi farebbe piacere sapere se il passato degli ausiliari "to
have" e "to be" è in sintonia con la maniera francese di trattare la
proposizione ipotetica, e cioè con quel "si j'étais" o "si j'avais" (ossia
l'imperfetto dell'indicativo) che accetto sempre a malincuore, dato che la
lingua francese ha abdicato nei confronti dell'imperfetto del congiuntivo. e
cioè "si je fusse" e "si j'eusse". Chi ha influenzato chi? Il francese ha
corrotto l'inglese? Il contrario?
Ma il mio dubbio atroce è nella formula letta in fonti e sentita da bocche
insospettabili "If you would like...".
Mi chiedo: in quel caso, "would" agisce come il passato di "will" e dovrebbe
tradursi con "se lei volesse gradire...", o al contrario dovremmo dire "if
you liked..."?
Insomma, sarei grato se qualche esperto di linguistica e grammatica inglese
potesse elucidarmi sul ruolo e sulla struttura di "would".
Sono davvero confuso.
Grazie infinite per le risposte che vorrete farmi pervenire.
Vince

 Vince
Attendo fiducioso un feed-back.
Grazie
Vince

 you liked..."?
Per quel che ne so, credo che "would" in questo caso sia usato per dare un tono
di gentilezza alla frase. Un po' tipo: "Non avresti una sigaretta?", che
naturalmente non ha nulla a che fare con condizionali tipo: "Se tu fossi povero
in canna, non avresti una sigaretta" o roba del genere.
Karamel


The clue is that "would" is used for two purposes:
i) in the past tense to indicate habitual actions:
"When he lived in England, he would walk 5 miles every day"
ii) as the present conditional.
"I would walk 5 miles a day if I lived in England."
"If you would like ... " is a present conditional. It is a polite
way of saying "if you like". The following mean pretty much the same thing:
"I could help you if you would like me to"
"I'll help you if you like"
"If you'd like me to help you, I will."
Raymot
[[[[[[[[[[

 [[[[[[[[[[
Right, Raymot..
But if I say  "If you would know what to do....etc.." I would make a
mistake, wouldn't I?
Vince

mistake, wouldn't I?
Yes, you would. As Ray said, you should use it to be polite and for
requests.
The right form is "If you knew what to do...", as you know.
Bye Asoka xx'82
<< However fast you may run, you will never overreach the ball >>

Vince
Yes you would, except on the very rare occasion where this
is what you meant.
Raymot
[[[[[[[[[[

 "When he lived in England, he would walk 5 miles every day"
Is this usual English or just very "educated" English? However that may be, I never
heard that.
I think I would say "...he was used to walk 5 miles every day".
Karamel



You meant "he was used to walkING...", didn't you?
But I wonder whether "he was used to walk" might mean anything in
English... could it possibily mean:
 someone/something used him as a means for walking
Just curious.
Max

 'educated english' (Does anyone speak that these days?)
Dear karamel,
I have to agree with Loki and say that
    " he was used to walk 5 miles every day"
sounds a little forced.
To answer Loki's question, the undersigned likes to believe that 'educated'
English (and for the benefit of those who are following this newsgroup to
improve their knowledge of this language, please note that English should be
spelt with a capital 'E' ) has not yet been relegated to cinder heap.
I remain, as always, ecc., ecc.,
Bambi
dtb

Bambi wrote:

I agree... Maybe I should say: "archaic" instead of "educated"!?
Does anybody still say "thou" instead og "you"?  :-)
Karamel


Ouch! I actually meant "he used to walk..." (without "was").
Since English is not my native language, I wonder if there is any difference between the
two variations? What would you say?
Karamel


I am not a native speker, either, so take my words with a grain of salt.
(Please, native speakers correct me if I'm writing rubbish.)
Yep, there's a difference. "he used to" does not imply "he was used to",
which is equivalent to "he was accustomed to", and concerns the subject's
psichological state, not his actual habits.
One can say, for example
	He used to be a good guy
while...
	He was used to being a good guy
is probably a rather odd sentence, and means something else, anyway.
Max

Karamel
1) used to + infinitive means both "I habitually did something in the
past, but I don't do it anymore" ( ahd it is therefore connected to the
concept of 'usually') and "persisting states that existed for  a long time
but which don't exist anymore.
2) to be used to + gerund refers to something like "I have done this thing
so often that it is no longer strange or difficult for me", hence it
refers to a different concept .
exemples:
1) I used to get up early when I was young (ero solito, era mia
abitudine...)
2) I am used to getting up early (lo faccio sempre, per me non è un
problema, mi è facile continuare/mi è difficile cambiare)
the second type of structure is found in all tenses: I was used to working
hard.
I hope this helps.
ciao
CC

the difference between 'used to' and would' is that the second one can be
referred only to repeated or habital actions, while the former can
indicate states and situations as well.
IMHO there is another case: I can say 'I used to have a Rolls Royce', but
I cannot say 'I would have a RR'. Therefore 'would' will not fit if
followed by the auxiliary 'to have' in this kind of context.
re-hoping tih can help.
CC

 
"Would" dopo "if" č quasi sempre seguito dal verbo "like"; č una forma di
cortesia, in effetti non si sta formulando un'ipotesi vera e propria. Puoi
trovarlo anche dopo "if" in frasi che sono interrogative indirette: "I want
to know if he would do that." "Would" naturalmente č anche la forma passata
di "will" ma ciň non risolve il problema perché anche "will" non si usa
dopo "if" nei periodi ipotetici se non nei casi in cui si usa "would"
(forme di cortesia).
Non credo che ci sia stata corruzione in nessuno dei due sensi tra inglese
e francese. In inglese il congiuntivo come noi italiani lo concepiamo non
esiste. Esistono forme che corrispondono al nostro congiuntivo e che anche
in inglese sono definite "subjunctive": "God forgive me"; "If this be
error... (Shakespeare); "She suggested that the place be changed" (dove č
sottinteso "should" davanti a "be"); ecc.
Io sono per la semplificazione della lingua e non mi scandalizzo molto del
fatto che il francese ha sostituito il congiuntivo con l'imperfetto. Visto
che sei cosě purista nei confronti delle lingue, spero che "accapponare"
che hai scritto con una "p" sola sia stata solo una svista. Se vuoi
chiedere altre cose riguardo l'inglese, ti risponderň volentieri. Ciao.
Cinzia
P.S. Scusa se questo messaggio ti arriva due volte; non ero sicura che la
prima volta fosse passato cosě l'ho rispedito.

 very fit."
What about "When he lived in England, he used to walking 5 miles every
day." Is it all right? If so, what does it mean exactly: would walk or was
accustomed to? (by the way, what is the dfference between "habituated" and
"accustomed"?)
-------
emgipi

psichological state, not his actual habits.
Bravo, Max! "He was used to" refers to the subject's psychological state.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

and "accustomed"?)
Si dice "he used to walk."
It means he would walk, that is; he walked more than once in the past but does
not do so now. It is closest to "camminava" I believe, in Italian. "Habituated"
has more of a sense of "compelled to by the unconscious self" than does
accustomed. Otherwise, they are similar in meaning.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 Si dice "he used to walk."
Silly of me, of course you're right. Thank you.
Ciao
---
emgipi

 in England, but maybe Bambi knows if this is correct.
Dear Loki,
The undersigned has not ventured on England's fair soil for many years now,
however I do believe that in the North, in some local  dialects, the use
of ' thou' is still to be heard.
Generally speaking, however, it is considered a fairly archaic word.
I remain, as always, ecc.,
Bambi
dtb

> On Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:46:22 +0100, "Bambi" wrote:
    > please   note that English should be spelt with a capital 'E' )
Loki replied in message 
80655712890613...@news.clear.net.nz
    > I expected someone from Britain would bite :-)
    > Capitals may be the rule but try telling that to my keyboard! (or my
    > fingers for that matter)
Dear Loki,
As is often the case, one's bark is actually worse than one's bite.
I hasten to assure you that this  is certainly true in my case.  However,
should your keyboard require barking at, do not hesitate to give me a call.


 I think I would say "...he was used to walk 5 miles every day".
"...he was used to walk 5 miles every day" is not correct.  You
would say instead:  "he used to walk 5 miles every day," but even
this has a slightly different meaning.  When you say he "used" to walk
5 miles every day, you are stressing the fact that he used to do it
and does not do it anymore.  The difference is slight, but in my opinion
the best uses for "would" in place of "used to" are examples like the
following, where you're describing a situation that is either in the
distant past, or when you're describing a situation that you liked
and wish would return:
[boyfriend and girlfriend split up]
I really loved her.  We would spend hours walking in the park
together.
[someone's father died]
He was such an energetic man, he would walk 5 miles every day.
Certain dinosaurs were very protective of their children.  They
would guard them with their life.
Dave
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