Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Grammar humour

La riporto come l'ho letta...
TEXAN: "Where are you from?" 
 
HARVARD GRAD: "I come from a place where we do not end our sentences
with prepositions." 
 
TEXAN: "OK - where are you from, jackass?"

 
Uhm. Confessa, tu non hai mai letto le FAQ di alt.usage.english.
Male, molto male. :)
Mx

 with prepositions." 
Mike, can you please tell us what you think of ending sentences with a
preposition.
Is it just Harvard grads (and people with same IQ) who think it is wrong
or is it a construction which is better to stay away from? (oooops!)
antonio
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 preposition.
Any Harvard graduate who should actually object to that wouldn't if he'd
read a book; but I doubt any one does.
Bye, FB
-- 
"I love the smell of perfume and the thrill of a chase, and the moment of
conquest."
"I like thighs. Do you like thighs?"
(What's New Pussycat)


Yes , I think it's a long time since anyone objected in principle to ending 
a sentence with a preposition .
Mike 

 on
it.cultura.linguistica.inglese :

Sě che le ho lette, perbacco! 
Ma la battuta del texano fa sorridere ugualmente! :)
-- 
Enrico C
* cut the ending "cut-togli.invalid" string when replying by email *

 wrote in message
news:457i9gF...@individual.net...

Anyone who disagrees doesn't know what he's getting himself into.
And he doesn't know what he's up against.
Joe from Massachusetts

 read a book; but I doubt any one does.
Could I have written 
1) "But I doubt any [Harvard graduate] does"?
2) "But I doubt anyone [Harvard graduate, mind you] does"?
Bye, FB
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[...] che bello credere che le leggi della logica siano quelle che ci ha
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(Umberto Eco, "Il costume di casa. Evidenze e misteri dell'ideologia
italiana", Bompiani)

 And he doesn't know what he's up against.
Neverthless, I have heard this nonsense of being incorrect to end a
sentence with a preposition from some respectable and educated English
people and I have no reason to believe they weren't being serious.
On the other hand, why would the joke exist if there weren't any people to
believe so?


 2) "But I doubt anyone [Harvard graduate, mind you] does"?
penso si capirebbe "nessuno" in genere
Just to set the record straight and give credit where it is due, there
would be a lot to say about the level of education given by the British
(and American, for that matter) system at the bottom level (far lower than
the Italian, in my opinion), but at the top level (Universities in
general) it is the Italian system that has to be ashamed.
Of course, that is only my opinion.



Well , the jokes are old ones - e.g. the sentence attributed to Winston 
Churchill rejecting this 'rule' ('This is the kind of nonsense up with which 
I will not put') goes back to the forties .
I'm sure that in the earlier part of last century it *was* thought generally 
desirable to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition , at any rate in the 
written language ; but there's been a very significant shift in every area 
towards less formal language use and structures . Of course , there's often 
still a stylistic choice to be made about whether to place the preposition 
at the end or not .
Mike 


You could have done ; but actually of the three I think only the middle one 
('but I doubt any does') would be correct ; even then , if pressed I'd say 
it should be 'but I doubt any has' ('if he'd read a book ; but I doubt any 
has' ;'if he read a book ; but I doubt any does') ; and even then , though 
correct , it sounds a bit uncomfortably compressed - I'd prefer 'but I doubt 
if any of them has' . (I see that Antonio has already made this last point) 
.
Mike 

>
Well , it's much better than mine ; I haven't one , since I only know the 
English system . But I would be interested to hear very briefly  in what 
ways you think our system at the bottom level provides a level of education 
far lower than the Italian (I'm not looking for a fight ! I'm quite prepared 
to believe you're right. I could write a book about the failings of English 
education - but probably one about its successes too, though that'd be less 
fun) .
Mike 

 if any of them has' . (I see that Antonio has already made this last point) 
I'm afraid there's been a diplomatic incident. What I meant is: "but I
doubt any Harvard graduate objects to it", not "but I doubt any Harvard
graduate has read a book".
Bye, FB
-- 
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And flush it a couple of times!"
"Darling, I've been killing spiders since I was thirty."
("Annie Hall")

 wrote in message 
news:1wqaoeujzvjhb.l...@40tude.net...

Ha ! I did wonder why you were being so contemptuous of Harvard graduates !
Ok , then it's still just the middle one - 'but I doubt any does' (and no 
need for expansion) .
Mike 

I think it is best that I leave aside the British school system now, whose
shortcomings are exactly not very clearly known to me, and I will give you
my opinion of the British society in general as it fares compared with the
Italian one (you asked for it).
 
At the bottom level, you don't get in Italy so many teenagers whose values
of life simply consist of getting drunk or spawning children that they
would happily trade in for a cd of Westlife, given the chance.
Nor do you get so many people who are absolutely brain dead, who have the
opportunity of a job but they prefer to stay unemployed, lazing about all
day, eating junk food and watching junk tv.
Whether it is the educational system or the society in general which fails
them, I don’t know, but certainly the educational system has something to
answer for, as being part of the society.
It is my strong opinion therefore that the British (and the American, for
what I can imagine) society at the bottom level is in a very bad state,
compared to the Italian one.
However, in the Uk (and US) the society is two-tiered.
In fact at the top level, the situation is turned on its head.
You know where you stand when you talk to a British or American graduate.
I can’t say the same for the Italian graduates.
The biggest racist self-serving gits in Italy are in the upper class,
those who come from University. (But actually there is no clear-cut upper
or lower class because it is not two-tiered. The idiots are equally
distributed across all walks of life).
You want to ask yourself whether they teach ethics at University in Italy
and the answer would be no. They stopped doing it when they left school.
I will give you an example. Try driving in Italy. Have a guess who will be
the first idiot who will blast the horn at you whilst dangerously
overtaking you because you are driving within the speeding limit.
You have 2 possible answers:
1 a professor / doctor / lawyer / white-collar / politician
2 a caretaker / cleaner / blue-collar / unemployed
If it happens in the Uk, the right answer would almost certainly be number
2.
If it happens in Italy, it would equally likely to be option 1 or 2,
perhaps even slightly more likely to be option 1, shamefully.
Anyway, that is only my opinion (spoken in jest) and that is a very very
general speculation, many exceptions apply (I am an Italian graduate,
after all).


 overtaking you because you are driving within the speeding limit.
It's more the spirit of a people rather than education. In Austria drivers
immediately slow down according to road signs---I don't suppose they're
all lawyers and doctors defending and curing each other---and they stop
when there's someone at a zebra crossing who wants to cross over . In
Sweden people pay very high taxes, but they're happy to because they know
their administration works. Italians are generally just too smart to slow
down when driving or pay taxes. Think of seatbelts: it's self-evident you
have to wear it for _your own_ sake, but most Italians just won't do it
because they're idiots, and most of those who do wear them do so because
they fear a fine! Much more than, say... dying? But no, only stupid people
die: smart guys are immortal.
[...]
Bye, FB
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 die: smart guys are immortal.
Have you been away too long to know any Marco Ranzani-like drivers?
Bye, FB
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called "God")

My point is that you can be a "smart guy" in Italy regardless of whether
you have been to university or not, while that doesn't happen in the UK.
On the other hand, the level of smartness of the English lower class has
no equal in Italy, believe me.
P.S. I have no idea who Marco Ranzani is.
antonio


 wrote in message 
news:dsqrsm$r5b$1...@news.newsland.it...

Too big a subject for the ng - I could write on it for ever . I can only 
agree that English cultural values (in the widest sense) in so many areas 
are depressingly mean-spirited and selfish . The schools are both 
accomplices and victims in this , but more victims ; whilst they might have 
done more to steady the ship , remember that education is ultimately not run 
by the people who teach in schools ; new policies are imposed to satisfy 
educational theorists or political opportunists , and vast sums of money are 
wasted on these .
What I do query , though , is the distinction you make between British 
graduates and the rest . Our universities are in at least as dismal a 
situation as our schools . Asking whether British students spend more on 
alcohol or books would be too obvious a question even for 'The Weakest Link' 
. The British have never had an intellectual 'class' , or respect for 
'intellectuals' , in the same way as was the case in , say , France , but 
the suggestion that the products of our universities nowadays might in the 
remotest degree be supposed to approach that notion or to constitute a 
recognisable educated class is a laughable fantasy .Yobbish behaviour , on 
the roads or anywhere else , is certainly not the preserve of blue-collar 
workers or the uneducated . When the police not long ago had a crack-down on 
football hooliganism , many of the ring-leaders turned out to belong to the 
professional classes . Drinking and drug-taking have no social or 
educational boundaries . The leader of the BNP (British National Party - our 
racist mob) is a Cambridge graduate .
I'm glad to hear that the rot hasn't set in as far in Italy - yet .
Mike 


'spirit of a people' very much modified by the spirit of the age ? The 
experience of living in England has changed enormously in my lifetime ; 
whilst various writers have tried to pin down what 'Englishness' is , I 
don't think current typical English behaviour has very much ressemblance to 
any of characteristics they have defined .
When I was in Germany a couple of years ago, I was very much struck not only 
by drivers' observance of road signs  but by the way pedestrians waited with 
such discipline at junctions for the signal  to cross - good old Teutonic 
respect for order and authority , I thought , but I was told I'd better do 
the same or risk being hit by a stinging fine ; so the motive seems much the 
same as that of Italian seat-belt wearers . Fear of a fine was the only 
thing that made me wear a seat-belt ; but now it's just second nature for me 
and every other British driver (though in Greece , when the Greeks didn't 
wear them , I never bothered to either) . Fear of a ban was what stopped us 
driving after drinking - though in the course of time our attitudes to that 
have completely changed , too .
Mike 

 Mike
I fully agree with you. Attitudes change in time, according to
situations... and to fines! :)  In Italy, bikers dind't wear helmets
and car drivers didn't wear seat-belts until a fine was introduced.
After that it has become a second nature for many of us, at least in
some parts of Italy. (1)  If you don't wear a helmet on a motorbike
passers-by will be surprised and think you are a fool, because of the
hazard! But then, only now they seriously think of the hazard, they
didn't seriously think of it before. Why? I would say the real reason,
together with the fear of a fine, boils down to social disregard: do
as others do, otherwise people will frown on you! 
By the way, I gather that social patterns - to wit, the sense of shame
for doing things in a different way that is not generally expected -
are even stronger in Britain. Am I wrong?
I think it is largely due to education, not just at school but in the
family as well. 
(1) = As far as I know, all that refers to Central and Northern Italy,
not to the South, where laws are even less enforced than in the rest
of the country. Only in Naples you can see three or four people and no
helmet on a Vespa that could legally carry one!
On request of the mayor of Naples, our Parliament has recently passed
a new bill to crush offenders: if you don't wear a helmet, police can
now seize your motorbike and sell it! After the new law, the
"attitude" is changing in Naples too.  ;)

 educational boundaries .
Ask Prince Harry. ;)


 "attitude" is changing in Naples too.  ;)
It is? See above.
Bye, FB
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Xxxxxxxxxxxx che scrivere noir non fa per lui. Per il suo bene (e il
nostro, soprattutto)."
(Recensione di Antonio D'Orrico sul Corriere della Sera Magazine)

 Ask Prince Harry. ;)
Or his brother, for that matter, according to the latest news.
Bye, FB
-- 
Conversation like television set on honeymoon: unnecessary.
(Murder by Death)

 It is? See above.
Well, it was... at least a few months ago, when the new law was first
introduced and applied: you could see some helmets in the streets at
last! 
Last month, though, I read that they are not seizing offenders'
motorbikes any more, 'cause they haven't set up a parking lot where to
keep confiscated bikes yet. :-(
Anyway, I visit Naples only once every few months; others might
provide more updated/accurate information. 


 I'm glad to hear that the rot hasn't set in as far in Italy - yet .
The rot that affects such a big proportion of the British society at the
lower level has not set in in Italy and I hope it never will.
antonio



You make me long to emigrate .
Mike 

 party.
What's the Nationalist party here in Italy?
Non mi sembra che la Lega sia tanto nazionalista... più che altro, fino a 
qualche anno fa, era secessionista.
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"There are only two kinds of people who really are fascinating - people who 
know absolutely everything, and people who know absolutely nothing." (Oscar 
Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray) 

 qualche anno fa, era secessionista.
Well, it's sort of a "Padan National Party" ;-D
(I've just made up that name, of course).
I'd say Alleanza Nazionale is a more likely "Italian National Party",
so to speak, but I don't know whether it's similar to the British
National Party.
-- 
Enrico C
news://
news.romacivica.net/italia.roma.mobilita
(Notizie sui trasporti, il traffico, le infrastrutture.)

>I suppose all our disagreements are about a matter of degree , which is
difficult to assess 
 
Exactly!
 
Anyway, all I was trying to say is (and this is only my opinion) that in
the Uk and in the US there is a very large proportion of people who are
absolutely ignorant and stupid, in the way they act and they behave, like
there is no equal in any other country, including the third world.
 
However, this is not all bad news, since the rest of the population (which
of course is the overall majority and includes nearly the totality of the
graduates)  is exactly at the other extreme.
In Italy there are very few people who reach the same level of ignorance
and stupidity as you may find in the UK or in the US, but on the other
hand a variable degree of stupidity is equally distributed across all
walks of life and, quite worringly, affects even people with an education
and in leading roles, such as judges, politicians, lawyers, doctors, etc.
Now I leave it to you to decide which country fares better, before you
emigrate to Italy.


 National Party.
Let's put it this way: they would both share the view that "sporco negro"
means no offence.


 means no offence.
You might have been away too long: A.N. is an ordinary right-wing party.
Even the Lega is not 100% abominable. That said, it's generally known that
those parties have "nostalgic", disgusting fringes.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

 You might have been away too long: A.N. is an ordinary right-wing party.
Indeed, AN leader Gianfranco Fini called for the right to vote in
local elections for immigrants.
That piece of legislation wasn't actually passed, as not many in his
party and in government cherished the proposition, yet it was quite a
remarkable stand, and a cunning one to boot, in order to lure millions
of voters-to-be! 
-- 
Enrico C
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 wrote in message
news:dt03el$vap$1...@news.newsland.it...

I don't think the level of stupidity or ignorance is any higher in the
US or the UK than it is in Italy or any other part of the world. The
Italian word "maleducato" conveys much more accurately the phenomenon
to which you are referring. In the US we have no equivalent for this
precise Italian word, which has nothing to do with formal schooling.
Even the educated can be "maleducati". Any Italian would be offended
if someone called him "maleducato", but in the US we don't have to
worry about this problem, since we don't have a word for it.   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 worry about this problem, since we don't have a word for it.   :>)
Uhm... e "rude" (in inglese) cosa vuol dire, allora?



Rudeness can be temporary, but "maleducazione" is too often permanent.
Forse avrei dovuto dire "rustego" invece di "maleducato", come
definito da Carlo Goldoni:
"I Rusteghi in lingua Veneziana non è lo stesso che i Rustici in
lingua Toscana. Noi intendiamo
in Venezia per uomo Rustego un uomo aspro, zottico, nemico della
civiltà, della cultura, del
conversare."
Joe from Massachusetts

 Rudeness can be temporary, but "maleducazione" is too often permanent.
Se dico che A è maleducato, non voglio necessariamente dire che sia stato
educato male; voglio dire che si sta comportando come tale: in pratica,
che è "rude" o "ill-mannered".
[...]
Ciao, FB
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 US or the UK than it is in Italy or any other part of the world. 
No, it is not. The way it is distributed is different.
That's only my opinion, anyway.


 le FAQ di alt.usage.english.
Tnx.