Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: car keys

(1) my car keys
(2) my car's keys
 
Which & when?
 
 From a logical point of view, (1) doesn't imply that I own a car 
whereas (2) does, so each sentence should have its raison d'être, but 
what is logic compared to usage!
 
-- 
Kiuhnm
 
https://flexboxfroggy.com/
          [aiuta le povere rane]
 

 its raison d'être, but what is logic compared to usage!
 
Usage is a strong argument, but even stronger is statistics.  Cases 
of different ownership have not been observed so far.
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

    sempre "car keys".
 
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a general rule. Indeed, one can say
   the earth's gravity
   the train's arrival
   the world's highest mountain
but not
   the street's name
   the house's roof
   the page's bottom


  From a logical point of view, (1) doesn't imply that I own a car 
 
Nel senso che possiedo delle chiavi di macchina ma non possiedo la macchina?

    the street's name
 
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22the+street%27s+name%22
 


Esatto. Prendilo come esercizio mentale :)



https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+street's+name%2C+the+name+of+the+street&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26
 


 Esatto. Prendilo come esercizio mentale :)
 
Per prenderlo come esercizio mentale allora, due non dice che possiedo 
le chiave.
 
Non uso il verbo "implica" perché, secondo me, uno implica che possiedo 
la macchina, anche se non lo dice chiaro.


Agreed on both counts.


On 09/03/2021 20:43, Tony the Ice Man wrote:

Are you willing to chime in regarding "street's name" vs "name of the 
street"? I believe the former is not very common and should be avoided.



It appeared to me that the group was doing a fine job of discussing this 
issue. Although you posted the question, you also posted a valid 
response to your own question, that is; there isn't a general rule, but 
some expressions are more acceptable with an adjectival rather than a 
possessive structure.
 
I'd venture to guess, without putting much thought into it, that we are 
hesitant to allow the status of possessor for most non-living small 
things. That doesn't include 'the Earth" or "the world" to which some 
attribute a name, Gaia. (Note that Earth as a planet is capitalized, but 
when describing the soil, is not.)
 
However, using the possessive in the examples given is not prohibited, 
it just is an anomalous practice in some instances that can distinguish 
the probable native speaker from the probable non-native speaker. Even 
so, I think that I could say all of your "but not" examples, buried 
within a longer invented dialog, with such confidence that it would not 
cause listener's eyes to blink.
 
You might find this other type of anomaly interesting. There was a 
series of comedy shorts hosted by Jerry Seinfeld called "Comedians in 
Cars Getting Coffee" in which, while Jerry was driving with his guest 
Sarah Jessica Parker, she said the words "rye bread" placing emphasis on 
the second word instead of on "rye." It was so dissonant to the ears of 
a native speaker that Sarah was flabbergasted in explaining why she said 
it that way. Of course, now I almost always say rye BREAD because my 
pursuit of amusement is insatiable.

 pursuit of amusement is insatiable.
 
I think "hot dog" is even more amusing because the wrong pronunciation 
has a well defined meaning (well, kind of), although totally unintended.


 has a well defined meaning (well, kind of), although totally unintended.
 
Yes, with emphasis on the first word it can be a kind of piccola 
salsiccia genovese, or figuratively it can describe una persona che 
sfoggia, someone who shows-off. However, one places the emphasis on the 
second word to express pleasure, like exclaiming "forte!" .

 
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+street's+name%2C+the+name+of+the+street&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26
 
 
Allora sostituiamo "can not" con "would not usually".
 
Si tratta semplicemente di una forma insolita, perché normalmente non 
si personifica "the street", mentre può succedere con "the world". 
AFAIK.
 
Un'altra sfumatura potrebbe essere, forse, se parlo di una strada in 
particolare.  Per esempio mi è venuta la curiosità di sapere perché 
"Pall Mall" si chiama così. Cerco su Wikipedia in inglese e trovo 
spiegato che "The street's name is derived from 'pall-mall', a ball 
game played there during the 17th century."