Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Punteggiatura: i due punti.

Non capisco bene il senso di questa affermazione dell'autrice di "Mangia,
spara e se ne va", in un'intervista a Repubblica.
http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/diario/03032004.pdf
E i due punti?
«Ormai, almeno
qui in Inghilterra, vengono
usati quasi
esclusivamente nella
titolazione. Invece sono
un mezzo insostituible
per fare una
pausa teatrale, drammatica,
ed aggiungere
qualcosa al discorso».
===



Se hai voglia di leggere l'intero capitolo del libro (28 pagine), posso
scansarlo e caricarlo su internet. Parla non solo dei due punti, man anche
del punto e del punto-virgola.
-- 
Xakero

 scansarlo e caricarlo su internet.
Scansarlo? Beh, č meglio che scannarlo.

 pausa teatrale, drammatica
As it stands , nonsense .
Mike

 on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese :

"Eats, shots: [pausa drammatica] and leaves!" 
;)
-- 
Enrico C
...still legal tender...

 on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese :

Actually I am a bit puzzled from what she says about the colon! 
Having read the book, what do you reckon?


 wrote in message 

This sounds sounder... :)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2282/engl/colonpp.htm


 wrote in message 
news:1v2cping39059$.dlg@news.lillathedog.net...

Yes , absolutely . After a grammatically independent sentence , a colon 
introduces an amplification , illustration , or explanation of that sentence 
.
I think the mnemonic in your link , 'punctuation's fanfare' , is rather good 
.
Teachers of English (in England) have expended much energy to dispel the 
ridiculous notion that the purpose of punctuation is to prevent us from 
dying of oxygen deficiency - children often come from the primary school 
with the belief that commas and full-stops are there to allow us to pause , 
the full-stops allowing us to pause longer (an equally obvious nonsense) . 
It's very surprising to see the author of 'Shoots , leaves etc' apparently 
subscribing to such a notion , but it was probably just an ill-considered 
short-hand expression in a live interview (I hope) .
Mike 

 Actually I am a bit puzzled from what she says about the colon! 
puzzled *by*

 short-hand expression in a live interview (I hope) .
Just curious: what would you say to a 5-6 years old who runs into commas 
and full-stops while trying hard to match sounds with barely known signs?
Tabhall (primary school teacher)

 the full-stops allowing us to pause longer
Well, I agree. Punctuation is there to mark a pause—a correct pause, of
course. In my judgment there's little difference between marking a pause
and marking the structure of the sentence. Albeit I, myself, think that
both criteria need mentioning, because I, too, remember that as a child I
tried to figure out whether the pause was long or short in order to make my
mind up on whether a comma or a semi-colon or a full stop was required.
Both criteria affect my choosing how to punctuate a text: I'm sure that
ignoring the "structure-marking" function would mean creating a text in
which punctuation is, paradoxically, unnatural; whereas ignoring the
pause-marking one would cause my writing to be just as unnatural,
punctuation marks not reflecting the way the mind, before the mouth, slows
down or moves on smoothly. I do feel a little irritated when I read a book
that is badly punctuated. For example, nowadays it's very common to use
commas everywhere, and often times I would see a semi-colon, a colon or
even a full stop as more appropriate, in that commas represent, for me,
short pauses, so that what comes in between them seems sort of flung about
on the page; as if the text were but an eternal list vomited on paper.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" apparso su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 [...]
I'm not clear what you mean by 'pause-marking' , as opposed to 
'structure -marking'.
The sort of childish confusion you mention is what I think should be avoided 
entirely - at what point is there any need to give a child the entirely 
spurious notion that there is any sense in which the comma , semi-colon and 
full-stop signify pauses of established comparative lengths , let alone the 
wholly ridiculous one that the length of a pause should be a basis for 
choosing the punctuation mark ?
You say , 'Punctuation is there to mark a pause' - tho' obviously you're 
well aware that many punctuation marks (inverted commas , etc.) do no such 
thing , and that they often do other things as well (question mark) ; but 
the most you can say is that punctuation in writing may coincide with a 
pause in speech (tho' never of a determinate length) . Punctuation marks 
help to control meaning (mark structure) ; in speech , we have a number of 
ways of doing this - pitch , intonation , pace and pauses being the obvious 
ones . Sometimes punctuation marks may convey information of which the 
primary indicator in speech is a pause , but such correspondences are 
neither exclusive nor complete . A simply descriptive adjective clause is 
placed between commas , a definitive adjective clause isn't ; the 
distinction in speech is made partly by an element of pause before and after 
, but most obviously by differences in the intonation/pitch of the voice . 
When I had occasion to teach this element of punctuation , I did so by 
exaggerating in speech the difference in pitch which marks the structure - I 
doubt if I mentioned the pauses at all .
As we all know , punctuation is a very feeble indicator of meaning compared 
to the resources of the voice - that's why actors can produce such 
enormously different renderings of the same lines , and why the  pauses in 
speech (and their relative length) have slight correlation with the 
punctuation of the same words in writing ; very obviously , a colon may 
coincide in speech with a scarcely perceptible pause , far from fare una 
pausa teatrale ; the decision to make a dramatic pause is made by the 
speaker/reader on the basis of  what he sees as the expressive demands of 
the content ; and he might well make such a dramatic pause where there would 
be no written punctuation at all . That's why I can't understand what you 
mean by 'pause-marking' as opposed to 'structure-marking' - if we evolved a 
set of symbols by which an author could indicate exactly where he intended 
pauses , and of exactly what length , a piece of writing would be much more 
unreadable than your IPA transcriptions are to me !
As you say , some authors use punctuation as a stylistic device , the 
strings of sentences which resemble a comma-separated data file being not 
uncommon ; sometimes these can be successful (as is the famous 46-page 
unpunctuated soliloquy of Molly Bloom towards the end of 'Ulysses') , but 
they can certainly be tiresome - rather like representing regional dialects 
and accents not , as is conventionally done , by selective representation of 
the regional sound , but by doing it for every word .
Mike

 wrote in message 
news:s3eDe.7822$a5.1...@twister2.libero.it...

I agree that at that age you would , I imagine , relate the marks to pauses 
in speech . But the explanations would become more sophisticated as the 
child's linguistic skills and understanding developed . Is a question mark 
ever explained by reference to pausing ?  I suppose that the child becomes 
familiar with questions , and recognises the characteristic intonations by 
which we identify them in speech , and is told (in appropriate language) 
that the question mark is the mark we use in writing to identify a question 
. Similarly , as children get older and develop the concept of a sentence , 
then they can be told that the end of a sentence in writing is marked by a 
full-stop - something we do in speech by a pause . Similarly , as children 
gain an understanding of more complex sentences , they can be shown how 
puntuation marks such as commas help make those structures more easily 
comprehensible . In most cases , semi-colons and colons are used where 
full-stops could be used ; the choice made has absolutely nothing to do with 
a variation in the length of pause , and it is baffling to see how the 
notion of pause could ever feature at all in any explanation of how the 
semi-colon and colon are used ; what explanation is given will focus on the 
additional information that is given by separating two sentences by a 
semi-colon or colon instead of a full-stop (if a child doesn't understand 
the full-stop , it's absurd to even mention the semi-colon / colon) .
I hope you don't think I was having a go specifically at primary teachers ; 
children do often leave primary school with the permission-to-breathe theory 
of punctuation , and not infrequently it's perpetuated in the secondary 
school too . Of course I appreciate that the linguistic skills of children 
of the same age vary enormously ; but I have been saddened by the fact that 
some children more than capable of assimilating information and ideas which 
would help them read and write better have not been given them .
Mike 

 be no written punctuation at all .
Could you supply an example, please? I, too, think he might, but to me he
would be being very generous with the author.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
"Something to take to the country." (holding out a bunch of flowers)
"Flowers come _from_ the country, Charles."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)


Well , I don't have the capability to do sound files , I'm afraid . But any 
public-meeting rhetoric would provide examples , I should think , of 
dramatic pauses where they could not be indicated in the text by 
conventional punctuation .
It's just occurred to me that once I used to help young people prepare for 
public speaking competitions ; sometimes I would go over their speech with 
them and help them mark where and how long to pause - something which would 
have been quite otiose if conventional punctuation did that job .
Mike 

 have been quite otiose if conventional punctuation did that job .
It gives an important guideline, though, to which one can add, but which
can't be ignored in terms of intonation, pitch and... pauses. (smiling
face)
Bye, FB
-- 
Saldando insieme vari dadi con una goccia d'acqua e tanta pazienza, riesci
a fare una specie di custodia con coperchio nella quale inserire la patata.
Per la cottura poi procedi come per il pollo alla creta.
(Elogio del dado - Garfield su it.hobby.cucina)

 no punctuation marks at all . A full-stop means only the end of a sentence .
And you can notice that when you compare computerized reading with human
reading, I think. :)



Scannerizzare mi sembrave troppo lungo, ma adesso vedo che scansare č una
tutt'altra cosa.
Grazie.
-- 
Xakero

 tutt'altra cosa.
L'ideale è "scandire", che pure significa anche un'altra cosa. È perfetto,
esiste già e qualche importante casa che costruisce scanner ha cominciato a
usarlo.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"It sounds appalling!"
"Interesting and appalling. The others just sound appalling!"


 short-hand expression in a live interview (I hope) .
Your hope is fulfilled.
QUOTE
...
   For many years grammarians were a bit cagey about the difference between
the colon and semicolon. Perhaps the colon was more "literary" than the
semicolon? One grammarian, writing in 1829, lamented the two marks as
"primeval sources of improfitable contention". By and large, however, it
was decided that the way to satisfy the punters was to classify the marks
hierarchically, in terms of weight. Thus the comma is the lightest mark,
then the semicolon, then the colon, then the full stop. Cecil Hartley, in
his Principles of Punctuation: or, The Art of Pointing (1818), includes
this little poem, which tells us the simple one-two-three of punctuation
values.
The stops point out, with truth, the time of pause
A sentence doth require at ev'ry clause. 
At semicolon, two is the amount; 
At ev'ry comma, stop while one you count;
A colon doth require the time of three; 
The period four, as learned men agree.
This system of sorting punctuation marks as if they were musical rests of
ascending value has gone unquestioned for a long time, but do you know what
I think? I think it's rubbish. Complete nonsense. 
....
Expectation is what these stops are about; expectation and elastic energy.
Like internal springs, they propel you forward in a sentence towards more
information, and the essential difference between them is that while the
semicolon lightly propels you in any direction related to the foregoing
("Whee! Surprise me!"), the colon nudges you along lines already subtly
laid down. 
...
UNQUOTE
Source: "Eats, Shoots & Leaves", Lynne Truss, pages 112-114
I rather like that idea of "expectation" to explain the purpose of the
semicolon and the colon.
For the complete chapter, see
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/4169b3db_eec5/bc/My+Documents/Eats+pp103-131.pdf?CCuPU6CB3_r0Zn_F
PDF file, 531 KB
-- 
Xakero

 usarlo.
Grazie. D'ora in poi, scandirò.
-- 
Xakero

 PDF file, 531 KB
Many thanks, though I'll certainly buy the book.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Qualcuno, meglio se un parente, dovrebbe comunicare a Xxxxxxx Xxxxxx che
scrivere libri non fa per lui. Per il suo bene (e il nostro, soprattutto)."
(Recensione di Antonio D'Orrico sul Corriere della Sera Magazine)

 Many thanks, though I'll certainly buy the book.
On the site of BBC4, if I remember correctly, you'll find a recording of
the first instalment of "Midsummer sins", with, among the rest, Lynne Truss
(and Julian Fellowes, who, amongst other things, has written the script for
"Gosford Park").
Bye, FB
-- 
"Something to take to the country." (holding out a bunch of flowers)
"Flowers come _from_ the country, Charles."


 I've looked it up and have found no such *acceptation* for it.
Ahem...
-- 
Mary

 wrote in message 
news:3kajocF...@individual.net...

Thanks - I'm glad I gave her the benefit of the doubt !
Mike 


 But the cases under discussion are those where a semi-colon/colon comes 
between two grammatically separate sentences : in these cases , a semi-colon 
could always be correctly used instead of a colon , and a full-stop in place 
of either . The semi-colon and colon give added value : after a full stop , 
the next sentence could deal with something quite different ; after a 
semi-colon , you are prepared for a closer connection with the preceding 
sentence ; after a colon , you are prepared for a sentence having a more 
specific connection with the preceding one - that it , as I said before , 
what follows the colon will in some way explain , illustrate , elaborate on 
or present the consequences of  what is said before the colon . So it seems 
to me indisputable that both the colon and semi-colon have a proleptic 
function ; and I still think the length of pause is immaterial .
To say the semi-colon is a sort of weightier comma would only make sense if 
you saw them solely as indicators of pause-lengths - but one cannot be 
substituted for the other , whatever kind of pause you feel appropriate ; 
they have completely different functions , and function of neither is simply 
to call for a pause .
Mike

  where the reader does see a punctuation mark, he must "read" it.
And the reading always involves more than a pause .
Mike



But we agreed it does exist!
Uffi uffi!
Ciao, FB
-- 
"The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live, that is what I mean—so
Bunbury died."
"He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

 But we agreed it does exist!
We agreed that it exists in the dictionary, but that if you used it,
nobody would understand what you meant.
-- 
Mary



It's their fault, then! (smiling face) I'll try to slip it into a message
to alt.usage.english and see how many eyebrows it raises.
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 function ; and I still think the length of pause is immaterial .
The semicolon doesn't necessarily have that proleptic function, in my
opinion. Of course, something new comes after it, but that's inevitable.
While I think that a colon introduces something, I regard the semicolon as
rather separating, albeit there certainly must be a connection with the
preceding concept; the preceding and following sentences are placed side by
side. I use the colon as an arrow, as it were:
1) "I waited for half an hour: then I went away." (rare but possible)
   "I waited for half an hour ==> then I went away."
2) "I waited for half an hour; then I went away."
    "I waited for half an hour==I went away."
3) "I waited for half an hour. Then I went away."
   "I waited for half an hour | Then I went away."
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
«"Plano su di lei come un paradiseo imbottito di Taurus... Faccio guizzare
la lingua come un pitone ubriaco". Prendo questo libro, lo butto nel
cestino.»


 And the reading always involves more than a pause .
I agree.
I've come to the conclusion that my notion of pause is very personal and
inexplicable. (smiling face) As you can see, we ultimately agree on a lot
of things.
Bye, FB
-- 
Marcel: Gentlemen, may I present Miss Betty DeBoop from the Islands?
Colonel Schlissel: Caribbean or Virgin?
Betty DeBoop: Well, let's just say I came back a Caribbean.
(The Cheap Detective)

 semicolon could always be correctly used instead of a colon?
"Do you also imply that a colon could always be correctly used instead of a
semicolon?"
[...]
Bye, FB

 on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese :

La Cancelleria federale della Svizzera ne sarà felice. :)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/bk/sp/anglicismes/scansione.html
-- 
Enrico C
...still legal tender...

 of either .
[...]
A nice self-explaining example. :)


 wrote in message 
news:q20u34luej6l.1cpgpyhcabn1l$.dlg@40tude.net...

No
Mike 


 In these cases ; not in others
Mike 

 
http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/bk/sp/anglicismes/scansione.html
Adesso capisco perché mi era venuto in mente il verbo sbagliato "scansare":
perché avevo letto una volta il sostantivo "scansione".
scandire  -  la scansione
espandere  -  l'espansione
tradurre  -  la traduzione
cantare  -  la canzone
trasferire  -  il trasferimento; il trasferto
lanciare  -  il lancio
pensare  -  il pensiero
scannerizzare  -  la scannerizzazione? lo scannerizzamento? 
Trovo difficile derivare il verbo dal sostantivo, e vice versa. Ovviamente,
bisogna conoscere individualmente i verbi e i sostantantivi da essi
derivati.
-- 
Xakero

 scannerizzare  -  la scannerizzazione? lo scannerizzamento? 
"Scannerizzare" puah! (faccina sorridente)
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Enjoying yourself, Elfine?"
"It's going to be such fun!"
"No, it's going to be amusing or diverting, not such fun, darling."


 "Scannerizzare" puah! (faccina sorridente)
Sono d'accordo. Altro che troppo lungo, "scannerizzare" è anche brutto. Mi
atterrò a "scandire" e "scansione".
-- 
Xakero

 derivati.
In questo bisogna ammettere che l'inglese è molto più semplice... :-)


 to alt.usage.english and see how many eyebrows it raises.
If you just slip it unobtrusively into a message I don't suppose it'll
raise any, because knowing that you're not an English native speaker,
they'll be too polite to mention it.
As I said in the other thread, a grammarian might know the word, but
99.9% of native speakers wouldn't - they'd just think you'd made a
mistake.
-- 
Mary

 would help them read and write better have not been given them .
Children with poor logical skills are usually bad in punctuation. 
However you teach it, they don't get the point. They write e.g. "Il cane 
che correva nel prato." and it's very difficult to make them understand 
that it doesn't make any sense; it just sounds great to them.
I really wish I were able to find the infallible method to teach 
punctuation!
Tabhall

 punctuation!
"Sei pronto? Avanti, scrivi; incomincia: Signorina..."
"Dove sta la signorina?"
"Ma che, è entrata una signorina? Va' avanti, animale. Signorina è
l'intestazione autonoma della lettera. Signorina, veniamo noi con questa
mia addirvi - una parola - che scusate se sono poche ma
settecentomilalire... punto e virgola! noi ci fanno specie che questanno -
una parola - c'è stato una grande morìa delle vacche, come voi ben
sapete... punto; due punti! Massì, fai vedere, che abbondiamo...
Abbondantis in abbondandum!...
Questa moneta servono a che voi vi consolate, vi consolate... Scrivi, che
aspetti?"
"Avevo capito l'insalata..."
"Non mi far perdere il filo...vi consolate, dai dispiaceri che avreta, che
avreta, che avreta... già, è femmina e va il femminile, perché lo dovete
lasciare"
"Non so, perché che?..."
"E che "non so"? "Perché" è aggettivo qualificativo...perché dovete
lasciare nostro nipote che gli zii che siamo noi medesimo di persona vi
mandano questo, perché il giovanotto è studente che studia, che si deve
prendere la laura, che deve tenere la testa al suo posto cioè sul collo
...punto, punto e virgola!"
"Troppa roba."
"Lascia fare... se no dicono che siamo provinciali, che siamo
tirati...Salutandovi indistintamente, salutandovi indistintamente... i
fratelli Caponi... Apri una parente che siamo noi. Hai aperto la parente?
Chiudila."
Da Totò, Peppino e la malafemmina, 1956


I quite agree . My last point really related to the fact that over the past 
few decades attention in the UK has been focussed on the needs of the less 
able - I don't quarrel with that basic emphasis (indeed , in terms of 
resources I think a far greater proportion should have been allocated to the 
less able and the socially disadvantaged) , but in the process the more able 
have often been neglected ; methods and approaches devised to suit the less 
able (and often much more effective than those they replaced) have been 
universally employed , and cleverer children have spent much of their time 
in school running on the spot , unchallenged and often unprovided with some 
of the skills which would have enabled them to progress more rapidly . We 
have produced in state schools an 'educated' class whose basic skills in 
some respects are sadly deficient , and whose intellectual curiosity and 
ambition has not infrequently been frustrated  rather than fostered .
Mike 

 A novel by tabhall....
...who would write that without the full-stop:
"Il cane che correva nel prato"
:-)
Tabhall

 It's a riot, actually, a masterpiece.


 ambition has not infrequently been frustrated  rather than fostered. 
The same here, definitely! How odd nobody sees any contradiction in 
preparing youngsters for a selective and demanding society by easy tasks 
and no commitments.
Tabhall

 Da Totò, Peppino e la malafemmina, 1956
It's a riot, actually, a masterpiece.
Tabhall