Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Io ho avuto

Scusate la domanda che troverete stupida, ma io ho avuto si puņ esprimere in
questi modi?
I've had
I've got
I've gotten
Grazie a chi risponderą.

 Es. I've gotten lazy recently.
Anche "Ho ricevuto"? I've gotten a lot of presents this year.
In inglese UK ... hmm. "I got a lot of presents this year", direi.
(Questo e' uno dei casi come il milkman/postman dove puoi
usare il simple past nonostante "today", "this morning", "this year",
direi.)
-- 
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 I've gotten
"I've had" e "I have (got)" sono semplicemente tempi diversi, con usi
diversi. "I have gotten" è una forma americana, che si usa in tutti i casi,
tranne nella forma "to have got", in cui il "got" non è altro che una
particella ("I have got" può essere un simple present). 
Ecco una pagina mooolto interessante e sicuramente affidabile (più di me,
di sicuro):
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/gotten.html
Una domanda per gli americani del gruppo: il professor Lawler dice che
"I've gotten the answer" non è sbagliata se significa "Ho trovato la
risposta". Perché, invece, non si pronuncia circa "I've gotten plenty"? Non
può essere corretta, col significato "Ne ho preso/ottenuto abbastanza/in
abbondanza"?
A me questa forma piace molto, in quanto permette sfumature (vedi la pagina
di Lawler) che l'inglese britannico non ha, ma immagino che stoni parecchio
"gotten" in bocca o nella penna di uno che si sforza di parlare inglese
britannico.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 direi.)
Come "nonostante"?
-- 
Mary

 direi.)
E' proprio per questo che mi piace "gotten". In inglese britannico bisogna
svicolare, sennò "I've got a lot of presents" potrebbe (o lo è di sicuro?)
essere interpretato come "Ho un sacco di regali".


 Come "nonostante"?
Well, normally you tell people to say "I have eaten three apples today",
"I have been ill twice this year" rather than "I ate three apples today"
or "I was ill twice this year".
But in cases like "Did the postman come today?" there's some known
time after which the postman won't come, and it's already passed.
Similarly, "I got lots of presents this year" because your birthday
has already happened, even though it's still this year. Thus,
"nonostante". 




Perché se dico "this morning" ed è ancora mattina, il present perfect
sarebbe necessario.


 or "I was ill twice this year".
Yes, sorry, I'm being dense today.
-- 
Mary

 "nonostante". 
E' cosě scontato che uno riceva regali solo al compleanno? Mi spiego: se
dico "I've got lots of present this year", la gente capisce che voglio dire
"quest'anno ho ricevuto un sacco di regali, un po' al compleanno, un po' a
Natale, un po'... insomma, in generale"?
Ciao, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 Natale, un po'... insomma, in generale"?
Sě, ma se vuoi dire "ho avuto tanti regali (finora) quest'anno", devi
dire "I've had lots of presents this year", non "I've got".
-- 
Mary

 dire "I've had lots of presents this year", non "I've got".
Ah, grazie, come pensavo. In americano, invece, si può dire "I've gotten
lots of presents this year". 
E' un po' un rebelòt ("casino"), perché "I have got" può essere un present
perfect, non solo un simple present, ma solo in certi casi, e qui no. Boh.


 perfect, non solo un simple present, ma solo in certi casi, e qui no. 
Non mi viene in mente un esempio dove "I have got" funge da present
perfect - puoi dare qualche esempio?
-- 
Mary

 perfect - puoi dare qualche esempio?
"It's got bigger!", forse?


 "It's got bigger!", forse?
Sě, giusto; mi sembra che si usi solo nel senso di "diventare".
-- 
Mary

 essere interpretato come "Ho un sacco di regali".
In AmEng si'. I've got a lot of presents = Ho un sacco di regali.
Ma, I've got(ten) a lot of presents *this year* = Ho ricevuto molti...
La forma piu' comune in quest'ultima frase e' "gotten".
-- 
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Un-not my address if you wanna e-mail me.

 "nonostante".
Wait a minute here... there's a definite difference between "I got lots of
presents" and "*I've* got lots of presents." Curses! Now I'm getting
confused in my own language.
AmEng: I've got = I have; I got/I've gotten = I received/I've received;
I've got to (or "I got to" in very casual discourse) = I must.
(without a time definition such as "this year")
I got lots of presents = I received lots of presents. (But it's over, done
with.)
I've gotten lots of presents = I have received lots... (and I'm hoping for
more.)
I've got lots of presents = I have lots of presents.
I've got to get lots of presents = You'd better shower me with fine gifts.
(with a time definition)
I got lots of presents this year= I received lots of presents this year.
(But it's over; done with.)
I've gotten lots of presents this year = I have received lots... (and I'm
hoping for more.)
I've got lots of presents this year = Not used in AmEng.
I've got to get lots of presents this year = You'd better shower me with
fine gifts, and time's a'wastin'! It's June already. :)


 abbondanza"?
I don't know why he claims this; "I've gotten plenty of responses to this
statement, so I believe it to be in error.!"
I think he just means that it can't be used in the sense of "I *have*
plenty".
"I've gotten plenty of compliments on my manuscript!" is perfectly fine in
AmEng.


 confused in my own language.
I don't think you disagree with Adam. As Mary has written, in England one
says "I got lots of presents this year" or "I've had lots of presents this
year" (with different meanings), but not "I have got lots of presents this
year". 
In AmEng, you can say "I got lots of presents this year", "I've had lots of
presents this year", *and* "I've gotten lots of presents this year", which
you can't in BritEng.
Thank you very much for your examples. Michael Swan would better be on his
guard.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

 Sě, giusto; mi sembra che si usi solo nel senso di "diventare".
Penso di aver letto "I've just got this car" ("Ho appena preso
quest'automobile"). E' possibile? 
Credo che un americano direbbe "I just got/I've just gotten this car".
Giusto?


 La forma piu' comune in quest'ultima frase e' "gotten".
Quindi "I've gotten a lot of presents this year" è solo più comune? E'
possibile dire "I've got a lot of presents this year" ("I've got" ==>
present perfect)?
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 Giusto?
Giusto.


 present perfect)?
"I've got a lot of presents" in the sense of "I have a lot"
When you add "this year" the context changes:
"I got a lot of presents this year" or "I've gotten a lot of presents this
year." The first implies that you expect no more; the second leaves open
the possibility for ever more presents!


 By the way, I've also heard "did you eat yet?". Is it acceptable in AmEng?
Perfectly so.


 Perfectly so.
By the way, the sentence in question ("Did you eat yet?") undergoes many
transitions, depending on the speaker, the listener and the context:
"Did you eat yet?" Pleasant, somewhat formal or carefully spoken.(More
formal would be "Have you eaten yet?")
"Didya eat yet?" (Or "You eat yet?) More common; "family talk"; mother to
son, friend to friend, etc.
"Jeet yet?" (I'M STARVING! If you didn't eat yet, let's get going!)
"Jeet yet?"
"No, jew? (No, did you?) :)
