Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: To Catch a Thief

Ho visto "To Catch a Thief" ("Caccia al ladro") di Alfred Hitchcock in
inglese. 
Ho così potuto scoprire che Grace Kelly, oltre a essere lei stessa
meravigliosa, ha un bellissimo accento. E' identico a quello che Tony mi
aveva segnalato come del New Hampshire, soprattutto quella tendenza a
mangiarsi le parole, o più propriamente a pigiarle le une contro le altre
(non saprei spiegarmi meglio).
Capisco cosa volesse dire Mikeo con "the language of the movies
from 40's to 50's". Anche Cary Grant, infatti, parla un po' così: suona un
po' più americano, ma comunque pronunciando le erre all'inglese, cioè solo
se in posizione intervocalica. 
E' una scoperta, per me, poiché pensavo che negli USA si parlasse più o
meno tutti allo stesso modo. Per caso la cosiddetta alta società (da cui,
se non erro, proviene Grace Kelly) parla ancora a quel modo?
Ciao, FB

 (non saprei spiegarmi meglio).
Hmmm, Non mi ricordo l'accento che lei ha usato in quel film, ma sarebbe una
sorpresa se fosse del New Hampshire. Altrimenti, non commento senza
sentirlo.



Grace Kelly was from Philadelphia and she always spoke in an affected,
quasi-English accent (with the "hw"s and everything).  Her accent is
the most affected accent out of all the Hollywood studio era actors I
can think of.

can think of.
Dr. Kelso, Dr. Kelso, Dr. Kelso. ;)
And you've never heard me. I am American, but I speak with an affected
quasi-horrible-nearly-Spanish-somewhat-American accent with lots of
mistakes. I also do mistakes when I write, so you won't be able to
spot me. I also ask dumb questions and give wrong answers. I rock, ha!
Please, don't tell anybody, it's a secret. I'm undercover.
Sebastiano\working for SD6, waiting for CIA
-- 
C'mon, I was kiddin', you guys! Don't be mad. Hey! Take your hands off
me! Hey! Don't! *muffled voice* you'll regret that! *thump* Ouch!

 can think of.
If she was trained, it may have been to speak using the infamous
'mid-atlantic' accent. But again, I'm speaking from supposition, not from
direct knowledge. I'll make it a point to listen to her accent in that film
if an opportunity presents itself.

 se in posizione intervocalica.
Infatti era inglese, anche se ha americanizzato la sua pronuncia.
-- 
Mary

 sentirlo.
Una volta mi dicesti che un tale parlava con accento del New Hampshire, e
mi pare che questo sia identico. E' simile all'inglese britannico tranne
alcune cosette * e Grace Kelly tende, talvolta, a spiaccicare un po' le
parole, a impastarle (non a confonderle, come se parlasse con un
cioccolatino in bocca). E poi, sempre di diverso dall'inglese, non c'è la
"t" che tende quasi a /tS/, come in "letter", ma una "t" (non "d" però, di
solito) normale, italiana, diciamo.
* l'accentazione, per esempio "imagination" pronunciato "imaaginaation",
"talk" pronunciato aperto e cose del genere (non parlo di queste singole
parole ma del modo in cui vengono pronunciate parole di questo tipo)
Ciao, FB

 can think of.
She could say anything, I don't care... (witty face)
Bye, FB

 Infatti era inglese, anche se ha americanizzato la sua pronuncia.
Mica troppo, però, anche se si capisce (più che altro si capisce che *non
è* inglese, se per inglese intendiamo l'RP, ma non che *è* americana, se
per americano intendiamo quello che si parla oggi). 
Strano, però, perché anche io ho sempre letto che era di Philadelphia.
Quando visse in GB?
Ciao, FB

 Quando visse in GB?
Parlavo di Cary Grant, non Grace Kelly.
Ha vissuto a Bristol fino a l'età di 16 anni, mi pare.
-- 
Mary

 
-- 
Un-not my address if you wanna reply.

 speaks affectedly, we might say it that way.)
O.K., tanks (does it sound southern?). (witty face)
Ciao, FB

 Ha vissuto a Bristol fino a l'età di 16 anni, mi pare.
Capisco. Grazie.
Ciao, FB

 
Which reminds me: Do Italian owls say "chi"?
:)


 
More "military", I would say.
:)
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Yes, she's lovely, but all those "hw"s and overly rounded vowels can
start to grate on the nerves.  (What may initially be charming can
seem pretentious a little later on.)  
Loved her in _Read Window_.  Not so much in _High Society_.  Talk
about accents:  Sinatra, Grace Kelly, Bing Crosby, and Louis Armstrong
in one movie.

 
"Rear Window" is one of my all-time favorite movies.


 "Rear Window" is one of my all-time favorite movies.
Better known in Italy as "La Finestra sul Cortile".
-- 
Mary

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Cary Grant is an interesting case.  Do you guys think he sounds
American?  Or British?  Or in-between?
Even though I didn't know he was from Bristol till a few years ago, I
always thought he had an accent all his own.  I love the guy, but he's
always sounded a little off to me, mostly because of his staccato way
of speaking and because his vowels seemed to travel or
something--there's something stiff about the way he speaks.  He
doesn't really sound British to me, but at the same time, he doesn't
sound "totally American" either.
-az

, Ara Zacis 
wrote...

I agree with your description and perception. His speaking style was kind 
of unique, sort of like his trademark. More British-sounding than 
American, to me.


 O.K., tanks (does it sound southern?). (witty face)
Nah, just bushish.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

It isn't even the dictionaries.
My professor, talkinb about the differences between AmE and BrE, told
us that in AmE the /w/ sound in the beginning of a word is realized as
an /hw/ sound. That was the first thing he told us about AmE that I
was not aware of. Now I know why. :)
Sebastiano

 "Rear Window" is one of my all-time favorite movies.
She's most beautiful than ever in that film. Unfortunately, the film itself
is not one of Hitchcock's best ones. 
Bye, FB

 She's most beautiful than ever in that film. 
"*More* beautiful than ever".
-- 
Mary

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Mi vergogno un poco...
Ciao, FB

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Funny, I've always thought it was one of his best.
That and _Vertigo_.
_Notorious_ is quite good too.

 _Notorious_ is quite good too.
Yes, it is.
* Have you ever had a shower just after watching "Psycho"? You must do it!
Bye, FB

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Do you mean he'd never heard an American speaking?
Bye, FB

 Do you mean he'd never heard an American speaking?
Corrections D.I.Y.:
"he'd never heard an American speak".
Bye, FB

Do you mean he'd never heard an American speaking?
I am sure he knows Americans' way of speaking. He is more focused on
British English, though. He is a linguist, and he was merely talking
about linguistic differences between those two variety of English. The
use of the sound /hw/ is one of these differences. The point is that
the majority of the Americans don't use that pronunciation. I didn't
know that, I just though I was not listening carefully.
Sebastiano

* Have you ever had a shower just after watching "Psycho"? You must do it!
Yikes.  Jamie Lee Curtis has said numerous times that she won't watch
and has never seen _Psycho_ because she doesn't want to watch her
mother getting murdered.  Understandable.

an /hw/ sound. 
Hmm . . . this is confusing.  Are you saying that the /w/ sound is
realized as "hw" (IPA upside-down "w") in American English?  (So "we'
would be "hwe"?)  That's how understand this sentence.
I think you are trying to say something like this:
"Wh" at the beginning of words is realized as /w/ in Am. Eng. and as
"hw" in Brit. Eng.
Right?


 the majority of the Americans don't use that pronunciation.
They can't be aware of your professor's convictions, then. (witty face)
Bye, FB

 "hw" in Brit. Eng.
That wouldn't be correct either according to my Collins.
Bye, FB


Mitght similar logic be applied regarding Mel Gibson's "The Passion of
the Christ"?
Joe from Massachusetts

 It isn't even the dictionaries.
Nello Zanichelli si`.
Anche altre parole, per esempio whinge -> USA hw-
-- 
Enrico C
 News: 
www.40tude.com/dialog
 - Mail: 
www.ritlabs.com/the_bat
 
 Local News/Mail Server: 
http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm

They can't be aware of your professor's convictions, then. (witty face)
^_^
Sebastiano

Right?
No. He told us that in the US they use the aspirated w, and in UK they
don't. AFAIK both variety dropped the usage a while ago.
Sebastiano

 which you mention, "Psycho" *
My favorite one!  How about "The Birds"?  I saw the schoolhouse in Bodega Bay
last summer.
bye
Ari

 I saw the schoolhouse in Bodega Bay last summer.
It must have been funny. I, for one, would never visit Norman Bates house,
which, if I recall correctly, is still there.
Bye, FB

then my professor told us what you though I was saying.
No, what I read was that /w/ at the beginning of words is pronounced
"hw."  Which would be wrong.  "We" != "hwe."
But now it sounds more like what you originally meant was that /w/ at
the beginning of words is pronounced aspirated, which makes a little
more sense (but not much more).  So, "well" would be [whEl].  If
that's the case, it's not a very productive rule.  It's also rather
rare cross-linguistically to aspirate a (voiced) sonorants since it's
physiologically "bizarre" and requires extra energy.  (Aspiration is
usually associated with stops and voicelessness.)
Now, if your teacher was saying that initial "wh" is pronounced as an
aspirated w (in Am. Eng.), that's inaccurate.  For one, it's not an
aspirated w.  "Wh" was a labio-velar fricative which sounded like
"hw."  In fact, orthographically (in Old Gmc) it was "hw" or digraph
"hv," as it derives from Proto-Indo-European *kw (which gives Latin
"qu" [kw]).  (Think of the "w" as a superscript.)
What came to be written as "wh" WAS phonemically a labialized velar
fricative ("h"=[x] in the old language), not /w/.  Then in the modern
language this changed to [w] (possibly first becoming a voiceless w).
Now "wh" is phonemically /w/.  The change may not have taken place in
all dialects at the same time, but as you say, "no one" uses the "hw"
pronunciation anymore and hasn't for decades. 
It doesn't make sense for /w/ --> [labio-velar fricative] (nor
aspirated [w]) without some sort of conditioning.  That sort of "rule"
is backwards.  /labio-velar fricative/ -->[w].
-az

Joe from Massachusetts
You'd think, but apparently not.  People definitely went to see it for
different reasons, but I suppose the people who went repeatedly or who
went to be enlightened and touched by watching 12 hours of torture
condensed into 2 graphic ones were just jonesing for their snuff film
fix.

 more sense (but not much more).  So, "well" would be [whEl].
Might it be used in Minnesota? I think I've heard an actress (Marion Ross,
that is "Sunday, Monday: Happy days!, Tuesday, Wednesday: Happy Days!") who
said "well" that way, and she is from Minnesota, but:
1) Maybe she was just... breathing as she pronounced "well", and I haven't
paid attention if she always did it or not;
2) Maybe she was speaking with an accent which was not her own. It was not
"Happy Days", for your information.
Bye, FB

 and I haven't paid attention
"and I didn't pay attention"
Bye, FB

 wrote:

Minnesota dialects, I couldn't tell you.
I can say that sometimes you here people "pre-aspirate" w's and r's
and even y's . . . for comic relief.  I could say "well" as "hwell" or
"right" as "hright" (or even "hwat" for "what"),  but it would be to
be amusing.  (In _Wayne's World_ they say "hya" for "yeah.")
(Post-)aspirating a /w/, I don't know.  I find it hard to do without
also making the following vowel long (so it would be hard for me to do
it in regular speech).  An aspirated [w] might be perceived as a
voiceless [w], which I also have trouble producing (except when
whispering).  But perhaps some English speakers devoice and/or
aspirate their w's at the beginning of words with more ease than I
can.  It's possible.  Some languages have these sorts or sounds.
There are a lot of Scandanavian descendants in states like Minnesota,
so if one of those languages has voiceless/aspirated w's, it's
possible that that could have influenced this sort of pronunciation.

 
Seems to me that once in a while someone (in a comic situation, 
overplaying something or other) will say "W-HELL!" But solely as a joke.
-- 
Un-not my address if you wanna reply.

can.  It's possible.  Some languages have these sorts or sounds.
~~~~~
sorts of sounds

overplaying something or other) will say "W-HELL!" But solely as a joke.
Right.  [wEhEl]
Because of the pause ("hiatus") . . .  
Can we do this other words?

, Ara Zacis 
wrote...

That's the only situation (and word where that aspirated w appears) that 
comes to mind. The other common w-words don't work.


 wrote in message
news:d33590tsdimvkvqg6...@4ax.com...

The aspirated w (in when ? , what ? , where?  , and why? ) is common enough
in the UK  - you'll hear it often enough on the BBC - though I've never
liked it myself  ; possibly the Scots are more prone to it , but I'm not
sure about that .
Mike

 sure about that .
My father, who was from Cork, in the southern part of Ireland, had a
very pronounced aspirated "w" in his speech. At times it seems he used
it for emphasis in speaking, and then it would sound almost like
"fwhat". My mother, who was from Galway in the northwest, had only a
trace of the aspiration in her speech.
Joe from Massachusetts

which, if I recall correctly, is stil
Really?  Are you sure?  I thought that was a Hollywod set. If it really does
exist, it's probably a tourist attraction.   I wouldn't mind seeing it.
bye
ari

usually associated with stops and voicelessness.)
Yes, you're 100% correct. It's against one of the pillars of
pronunciation. In Italian we call it "minimo sforzo".
I was *very* confusing. I hope this message is more clear. 
Sebastiano

 "aspirazione".
Yes, the 'wh' is typically aspirated, while the 'w' by itself is not. But
don't think that 'h' always demands aspiration. The 'h' in 'hotel' is
aspirated while the 'h' in 'honor' is not. "It's _an_ honor to stay at _a_
hotel in this beautiful city".

 hotel in this beautiful city".
You've chosen a controversial example, as I think somebody says "an hotel"
in GB. I don't think it's too common, though.
Bye, FB

hotel in this beautiful city".
Yes, I know. It's also an hour, an heir, an honest man, and, for some,
an herb. And there's no /h/ sound in words like Allah, blah, exhibit,
exhaust. The first h in the word Hannukkah is pronounced (some don't
say the /h/ sound, though) while the second one is silent. In the word
hallelujah the final h is silent.
I read somewhere that the h in prohibit is silent, but I've always
heard it. I though that maybe it was silent in British English, so I
checked the dictionaries, but the h is not silent. It can be silent if
one speaks fast, but even the h in he can be silent if one speaks
fast.
Sebastiano

 in GB. I don't think it's too common, though.
It's a more common writing mistake than spoken mistake.

 exist, it's probably a tourist attraction.   I wouldn't mind seeing it.
http://www.1164.com/universal/photos/psycho/
I wouldn't mind either, but I'd have nightmares after that. 
On second thoughts, I don't think I would see it. I should certainly be
disappointed. The sun in those photos, for instance, is hot enough to fry
an egg: it definitely spoils the effect. Maybe *the* shower has a mixer tap
now! (witty face)
Bye, FB

 
With all due respect, FB, if you watch just about any American black-and-
white film of the thirties (the "talkie", to be sure! :), forties or 
fifties, you'll note that any character of esteem or social standing 
speaks with a "mock British" accent (unless it happens to be a real 
British accent) and you'll note, if you pay attention carefully, the 
pronunciation of "where", "when" etc., as "hwere" "hwen", "hwy."
It was still in my lifetime (I wasn't really born in 1752, however) that 
we were taught in school that this is the proper pronunciation of words 
beginning with "wh", except for "who" which has no "w" sound whatsoever.
It seems to me that if some beloved writer -- authoress, perhaps, say, 
Jane Austen, (just to pick a name out of the air, 8-) -- were alive 
today, she would likely use this "hw" pronunciation and wonder at its 
lack in others.


 It's a more common writing mistake than spoken mistake.
It's not actually a mistake; "an hotel" and "an historical..." are
considered correct in the UK, although I should think only a small
minority of people actually talk like that nowadays.
-- 
Mary

 
-- 


 Not so good. "Shower" as a verb [sorry, Loki!] or "take a shower"
I know not (sorry again, Joey) what to say. As far as I know (not so far,
then), "to have (or take, as you point out) a shower" is quite correct,
though "to take a shower" seems to be far commoner.
Bye, FB

 though "to take a shower" seems to be far commoner.
"Have a shower" is correct in BrE, and "take a shower" in AmE.
-- 
Mary

Not so good. "Shower" as a verb [sorry, Loki!] or "take a shower"
Sorry, I don't understand your comment.
Are you saying we shouldn't use "shower" as a verb?   
bye
ari


http://www.1164.com/universal/photos/psycho/
Well, I was right.  Both the house and the motel are part of a Hollywood set. 
I'll make a point of visiting it next time I'm down there.
The schoolhouse in "The Birds" isn't a set.  It is an actual schoolhouse which
is still standing although it's no longer being used.   
ari

, GFCARRERA 
wrote...

Since Joey is no longer with us, I'll answer for him. I believe he meant 
to say that you could use "shower" as a verb, or "take a shower,"
but please remember, as Joey would have wanted it, that his 
references were to AmEng... and as Mary pointed out, "have a shower" is 
common in BrEng. I believe (and I believe Joey would have believed) that 
"shower" as a verb is used in both.
Now... off to the memorial service.
--
Un-not my address too, if you wanna reply.

may get the idea I'm trying to convey.
Both are [w] for me.  "when" is like "wen/win."  "why" is like "y."
"whip" is like "wip."   "while" like "wile," etc.
No puff of air for any of them.  
(Unless you are devoicing the /w/, aspiration would be odd for these
"wh"-words.  I'm sure that there are (AmEng and other Eng) speakers
who do (regularly) devoice them though.  Aspiration could easily
follow from devoicing--it's just a lag in the onset of voicing:
leakage of air through spread vocal folds.)
-az

hallelujah the final h is silent.
Orthographic "h" after a vowel usually just indicates a "long" vowel
in English.  I can't think of any such "h"s that are actually
pronounced (unless it's exaggerated and pronounced like a
velar/palatal fricative--like German "ch").
(It's like orthographic "h" in Italian after "c" and "g" indicating a
"hard" consonant [k, g].)

 No puff of air for any of them.
It's true that the distinction between 'wh' and 'w' is diminishing among
English speakers. I still aspirate 'wh' but perhaps you are right that we
shouldn't be teaching that pronunciation to new learners since a growing
number of native speakers don't make the distinction.
Here's a discussion on the 'wh' topic that might be interesting to some
readers:
http://linguist.emich.edu/%7Eask-ling/archive-1998.4/msg00170.html
Interestingly, the professor who wrote the discussion uses 'hw' to represent
the aspirated sound. In an earlier post I intuitively dismissed this
designation as not representative but apparently it is used.

"hard" consonant [k, g].)
Yes. When the vowel after the h is e or i. We have che, chi, ghe and
ghi that have to be pronounced /ke/, /ki/, /ge/ and /gi/ and ca, co
and cu that are pronounced /ka/, /ko/ and /ku/ (the same with g: ga,
go abd gu --> /ga/, /go/ and /gu/). You have the "soft" consonants
with cia, ce, ci, cio, ciu and gia, ge, gi, gio, giu.
Well, I am sure you know all that, I wrote it just for the sake of
thoroughness. :)
Sebastiano

When a word ends with a vowel+h, the result is a long vowel.
Usually.  
My lack of thoroughness:
If it's a grunt-like discourse marker/filler word or just some
historical leftover, the "h" doesn't necessarily mark that:  uh, huh,
h(u)nh (nasalized vowel), oh, ah, meh, yeah, Sarah.
Probably for visual reasons, if not nasal- or w-final (like "um, ew"),
we like to add an orthographic "h" to our (vocalization) discourse
markers (like Italian adds "h" to words like "mah, boh, bah").)
-az