Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: reductions

Do you omit the letter first 't' in "Please don't interrupt" in normal 
speech?
Kiuhnm


No.
It may sound that way to you, since you probably can't detect a full-fledged
"t" in there, but if you ask someone to say "don'interrupt" and "don't
interrupt", you will notice a difference. In order to get a full-fledged "t"
sound, you would have to ask him to say "don' tinterrupt".
Joe from Massachusetts
Joe from Massachusetts


I don't .
But then , if I were to say this , I'd no doubt be saying it rather curtly , 
and therefore that bit more distinctly . If I were saying  'Don't ask me!' 
it would be a different matter !
Mike 

 Joe from Massachusetts
Kiuhnm

 I don't .
I don't think I do either, but I can certainly say it that
way without difficulty so I can imagine that someone might
actually do so.
Antonio

 speech?
Dipende da quanto sono seccata dall'interruzione. :) Più si sente la t più 
voglio affermarlo con chiarezza.
Questo però non significa che la 't' non giochi un ruolo nella pronuncia, 
come qualcuno potrebbe credere.
Forse è meglio fare la prova con can e can't, perché con e senza t esistono 
entrambi in contesti identici e potrebbero essere confusi. Ma, al 99% 
vengono confusi solo dai non madrelingua che non sentono la 't' in AmE e 
scimmiottano questa cosa senza rendersi conto di dire can invece di can't. 
Sono diversi per un madrelingua, anche se i non madrelingua non se ne 
accorgono.
Io facevo sempre l'esempio di BART (la metropolitana di SF) e bar (dove vai 
a bere), la t non viene pronunciata in entrambi i casi, ma nel primo la erre 
si stoppa subito con un suono indistinto che dovrebbe rappresentare i resti 
della 't' scomparsa. Però questo e' intuitivo anche per i non madrelingua, 
mentre can e can't è più sottile. E infatti io consiglio di dire cannot per 
tagliare la testa al toro!
(Non sono sicura di aver risposto alla tua domanda pero'...)
ciao, Janis 

 (Non sono sicura di aver risposto alla tua domanda pero'...)
I've studied the difference between "can" and "can't" in a pronunciation 
course.
According to my texts, usually the "t" in "can't" isn't pronounced at all.
The difference lies in the stress: "you can do it" is pronounced "you cn 
do* it!", when "*" indicates the stress. As you can see, there's no 
stress on "can" that has its vowel completely reduced.
On the other hand, "you can't do it" is pronounced "you can* do it" 
where the vowel sound in "can't" is longer and stressed.
When you know this, telling "can" and "can't" apart is *very* easy.
Kiuhnm

.
-- 
Tchau, -João do Sabão


If I were using "fledged" in the literal sense, I would say "that bird is
not yet fully fledged".
"Full-fledged" is quite common in BrE.
Joe from Massachusetts

 where the vowel sound in "can't" is longer and stressed.
There are often two stressed syllables in a sentence like that one. The 
secondary stress is on "do".
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
SIR - I could not help but notice that almost immediately after you 
published a flattering Face value profile of Diane Greene, she was 
sacked [...]. I was wondering if you could soon write a Face value 
profile of Italy's prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi? (the Economist)

 "Full-fledged" is quite common in BrE.
Are you sure?
My Oxford Dictionary says:
fully fledged
   adjective
     with fully developed wing feathers and able to fly.
     Brit. completely developed or established; of full status.
and also
full-fledged
   adjective North American term for fully fledged.
Kiuhnm

.
No, this is just wrong:
"In AmE, the vowel quality is very similar between the two forms, but 
the length of the vowel in can't is shorter. (By a 'shorter' vowel, I 
literally mean 'shorter'--i.e. not pronounced for as long.)"
Kiuhnm

 secondary stress is on "do".
Not with "can't", in fast speech.
Kiuhnm


On second thought, you are right. I heard them pronounced in both ways.
Kiuhnm

.
 From the book "Improve Your American English Accent"
(slightly edited, bold letters are in square brackets and are stressed, 
"t!" is the glottal stop related to the "t"):
When we say "can" in the middle of a sentence, we say the vowel almost 
not at all;
the word "can" sounds like "kn."
->  I can tell. (Ai kn [te:l].) …
     He can count. (he kn [caunt]!.) …
     Can I go? (K* nai [go:u]?)
-> Where can they go? ([Hwer] kn they [go:u]?) …
    How can you tell? ([Hau] k* ny* [te:l]?)
-> Can you give me change? (Kn y* [giv] me [chei]:nj?) …
    Where can I get a drink? ([Hwer] k* nai [ge] #* [drink]?)
When we say "can't" in the middle of a sentence, we say the vowel very 
clearly, and we often pronounce the last 't as a flap or a glottal stop.
-> I can’t tell. (Ai [kant]! te:l.) …
    He can’t count. (He [kant]! [caunt]!.) …
    Can’t I go? ([Kan] #ai [go:u]?) …
    Why can’t they go? ([Hwai kant]! they [go:u]?)
Kiuhnm

 Not with "can't", in fast speech.
Prova a pronunciarlo col solo accento su "can't" e fammi sapere.
:-)


 :-)
Done. What's the problem?
For instance I've found this on a pronunciation manual:
-> I can’t tell. (Ai [kant]! te:l.)
where tell is unstressed ([x] = x is stressed).
Kiuhnm

 Done. What's the problem? [...]
http://enricoilpentolaio.googlepages.com/Icantdoit.ogg
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
P.S. Per far la prova con "can't" non pronunciato /'ka:nt/ ho dovuto 
anche rispolverare l'accento americano, quello in verità di Marte.
:-D


 :-D
You have mail!
Kiuhnm


What makes you so convinced it's wrong?
It sound correct to me, I'd say it's an instance of "pre-fortis clipping"


In "can" the length of the vowel is almost zero!
It just can't be shorter than the one in "can't"!
Kiuhnm


If it's in the "Times", it must be so.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=full-fledged+2008+site%3Atimesonline.co.uk&btnG=Search
Joe from Massachusetts


Yes, of course the vowels are very different if you compare the (more usual)
reduced form of "can" with "can't", but the author of that passage was 
evidently
taking about the unreduced form; even if that case one expects a difference 
in the
vowel sound of can/can't, even if both use /&/

 When you know this, telling "can" and "can't" apart is *very* easy.
"Io  non parlo cosě, non PENSO cosě!" (cit.)
Magari io sono grossolana, ma credo che il tuo studio dell'Inglese abbia un 
che di maniacale. Voglio dire...hai studiato la pronuncia dell'Italiano allo 
stesso modo? Come te la cavi con la pronuncia delll'Italiano?
ciao, Janis 

 stesso modo? Come te la cavi con la pronuncia delll'Italiano?
"italiano"
I've been studying Italian 24 hours a day and seven days a week since I 
was born: I can safely say that I speak like a native speaker.
Kiuhnm

 stesso modo? Come te la cavi con la pronuncia delll'Italiano?
Sono d'accordo, ma devo dire che spesso a leggere i messaggi di Kiuhnm 
mi ritrovo a fare delle considerazioni che fino a quel momento erano 
rimaste completamente inconsce (o meglio ancora, che metto in pratica 
senza averci mai pensato per niente)... per cui li trovo molto interessanti.
-- 
Laz

 was born: I can safely say that I speak like a native speaker.
Per questo te lo chiedo. Mi è capitato assai raramente di conoscere italiani 
che parlino la propria lingua senza accenti vari, regionalismi e spesso 
gravi errori di pronuncia (vivo a Roma, dove ad esempio la pronuncia delle 
doppie è inquietante...).
Poi non credo che tu abbia mai *studiato* l'italiano 24 ore al giorno, 
magari sei stato esposto all'italiano...che forse è quello che dovresti fare 
con l'inglese invece di sottoporti a continue sessioni di test e studio. E' 
un po' come fare 200mila esercizi e problemi di scacchi senza mai giocare 
una partita! :)
Quello che stavo cercando di dirti era: perché non fai in inglese quello che 
hai fatto (presumibilmente, visto che non mi rispondi) con l'italiano?
Io non so se alla fine non sia un lavoro frustrante quello che stai facendo.
Conosco un solo italiano ha curato la pronuncia studiandola: è un mio amico 
romano giornalista che, lavorando in radio a Sydney, ha fatto un corso di 
dizione. Solo che quando l'ha fatto viveva già lì da un po' e il suo inglese 
era già superiore alla gran parte dei madrelingua, magari non nella 
conoscenza di tutti gli idioms ecc., ma essendo una persona colta in 
generale, parlava un inglese colto. Insomma, ha perfezionato la sua 
pronuncia dopo oltre 20 anni che parlava la lingua. Ah, incidentalmente, lui 
aveva fatto tanti anni addietro anche un corso di dizione in italiano! ;)
ciao, Janis 

 Io non so se alla fine non sia un lavoro frustrante quello che stai facendo.
No effort no results.
Kiuhnm

 mind has set up many filters.
I don't understand that. Can you explain more about?
-- 
Yatta!,
As usual, FreeBSD proved to be a rock-solid platform enabling us to
deliver content without incident.
(Peter Losher)

 At the same way, I don't see why a Californian should lose his/her accent.
In the same way
Kiuhnm

 Kiuhnm
:-DD  Janis IS a chess player! That's why she made that comment, she 
knows better!

 I don't understand that. Can you explain more about?
A threshold is a level or a point where something starts or ceases to 
happen. For instance a noise reduction filter has a threshold: the 
higher the threshold the larger the quantity of information removed.
Sensory acuity measures the quantity of information you acquire (through 
your senses) that you're immediately conscious of.
For instance you can enter a room, see everything there is in it but be 
unable to answer to a simply question like "What was that big poster on 
the wall about?".
Filters can be seen as neurological programs which process information 
culling what's useful and readjusting it a bit. When we are little, we 
have almost no filters and very low thresholds, and then we can 
consciously percieve any kinds of sounds. But soon we begin to focus on 
the sounds of our language and establishing *useful* filters. Filters 
alter the way we hear things.
For instance, when an English says "cat", some Italians understand /kat/ 
while other /ket/. More interesting, if one records that sound and 
listen to it many times, it may hear/understand each time different things.
As always, there are many ways of learning. You can prefer a kind of 
"free learning" or a "systematic learning".
I think that learning a language is like learning to play an instrument 
or learning math (the language of logical reasoning).
But some will tell you that math is easier. I think it depends on the 
fact that there aren't many true mathematicians while there are many 
true native speakers. If a mathematician lived among great 
mathematicians he'd realise he's not proficient at all.
For instance, my friends think they speak a good English, but their 
pronunciation (THs as /d/,/t/,/z/, etc...) and grammar are awful (don't 
worry, they don't visit newsgroups). They don't realise it because they 
don't watch movies, TV series in English or speak with native speakers.
They don't have the slightest idea of what speaking English as a native 
speaker means.
On the other hand, some of them are very good at soccer, but they think 
they're not because they know that professional players are much more 
skilled than they are.
So the question is "how can I learn English?".
And the answer "By lowering your thresholds and creating alternative 
filters".
But how?
When you start learning the piano you already know how to "push things", 
but playing the piano is not just about pushing some keys. The student 
who will disregard exercises and play whatever he wants, will never 
acquire a good technique. That's a fact (there may be exceptions, of 
course).
I really don't see why learning a language should be any different.
Have you ever seen martial artists repeating the same movement over and 
over? I bet you have. What's that for? Simply put, they're creating new 
neuro-motor programs. The first time you throw a punch you're bound to 
do it wrong. There is NO WAY you can do it correctly. Doing it correctly 
means contracting and relaxing the right muscles, for starter. That's 
not something you can easily do at speed. The best way to do that is to 
perform the movement very slowly and make sure that all the unneded 
muscles are relaxed. After thousands of repetitions, you'll be able to 
throw fast punches without problems. If you, otherwise, just deliver 
punches with what you think is your maximum power, you'll never exploit 
your full potential.
The rules I learned are
1) Practice slowly to refine or learn new "processes".
2) Prefer quality to quantity.
3) Be consistent with what you do and how you practice.
4) Visualize what you're doing.
5) Always practice CORRECTLY (*)
6) ...
(*) Avoid bad habit by developing good habit (never pronounce the TH 
sound incorrectly, never keep your guard low, never overtense your 
shoulders, etc...)
Is it enough or should I elaborate more on this? :-)
Kiuhnm

 knows better!
She doesn't apparently. Or maybe she doesn't remember what it took her 
to become a player. Or maybe she isn't a professional player.
Kiuhnm

 (= I have no time!)
Io intendevo: dedicando lo stesso tempo che ora impieghi ora. Ti stai 
massacrando a studiare sulla carta le duemila varianti di pronuncia di una 
frase, quando, se hai un po' di dimestichezza della lingua capirai 
facilmente un Asiatico, un Africano, un Europeo, un Sudamericano e un 
NordAmericano con la stessa facilità!
Il tutto IMVHO ovviamente,
Janis che magari domani un salto su Skype lo farà...

 NordAmericano con la stessa facilità!
"2000 varianti"?
What're you talking about?
Let me tell you how it goes.
I take a sentence and try to pronounce it. I have no problem so I go on.
I then come across a sentence that I have some problems with.
I try to understand what I do wrong. Am I pronouncing the right sounds 
and it's just a matter of exercise or am I doing something wrong?
I listen to some native speakers and I realise that they seem to omit a 
sound and I say "Wow, that way is easy". But maybe I'm wrong. Let ask on 
the ng.
Now tell me what's wrong with my approach.
Kiuhnm

 Is it enough or should I elaborate more on this? :-)
Yep, you have written a very exhaustive explanation. Thank you. ^^
-- 
Yatta!,
War has changed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui-pvKkduEY

 con l'italiano?
Cioè dovrebbe rivivere la sua infanzia in un paese anglosassone? Dove
vendono le macchine del tempo? ;)
Scherzi a parte, mi pare che K. sia uno che si impegni molto nello
studio, forse maniacalmente a volte, ma non vedo il problema.
Ovvio che *non bastano* corsi ed esercizi! Serve anche la pratica,
scrivendo, ascoltando, parlando... ma credo che questo K. lo sappia,
prova ne sia, ad esempio, il suo sforzo di scrivere sempre in inglese
su questo NG, ecc.
Mi ha poi colpito che la tua osservazione sia arrivata proprio in un
discorso sulla distinzione tra can e can't, che a quanto pare può
dare qualche problemino persino ai native se si cambia sponda
dell'oceano, dunque un'analisi come quella che è stata fatta mi pare
utile a un learner che cerchi di trovare la chiave per distinguere
tra suoni apparentemente simili. Certo lo studio non basta, ma anche
una pratica non guidata potrebbe non dare grandi risultati, IMHO.

 Kiuhnm
There's absolutely nothing wrong with your approach. When I used to
frequent this ng a few years ago, I made a point of saying that my
opinions and suggestions were aimed at those who wanted to understand
-- and maybe learn to emulate -- the sounds of a native American
speaker: understanding so as to improve listening comprehension;
emulating so as to sound natural, not like someone narrating a classic
tale to an audience of erudite and critical listeners. ("Not that
there's anything wrong with that.!" -- Apologies to Jerry Seinfeld and
his gang.)
That said, I think I understand where you are coming from. Look, I've
been studying Italian for years, since the late 50s (yes, I'm *that*
old) when I first started dating an Italian girl. Even after all this
time, when I try to speak the language, I know I sound like a
foreigner, and that's something I'd like to overcome. On two occasions
I learned I hadn't: Once when an Italian relative of a friend was
visiting and I said a simple phrase. He looked at his cousin (my
friend) and said "He sounds like a Milanese!" and they laughed.
Another time, thinking I was pronouncing things well, my listener said
"Wow! What an accent!"
My point for all this is that it's very difficult to sound like a
native, but it can be done and I think you have the right idea: why
and when does someone drop the "t' or the "d" and how does "what you"
really sound in rapid, casual speech? (whatchu), etc.
Sorry for the diatribe and I hope it isn't too OT; actually it's ON-T,
considering your comment, and I think you are on the right track.
(PS: If you want so *spell* like an American, too, you'll learn to
write "realiZe" and not "realise." :-)

 overcome. 
Sounding like a foreigner is not a bad thing in my view, especially
when you are fluent enough to make yourself fully understood with no
difficulty or distress. Even more so when your foreign accent
inspires empathy in Italy, as is generally the case with the English
and American accents.

 and American accents.
As above, I realized this in my trips to Italy... everyone, without
exception, was pleased that I did my best to communicate in Italian,
heavily accented or not. Since I added RAI to my cable options, I've
been "enjoying" "Un Posto Al Sole" as a good way to try to understand
Italian "as she is spoke" (at least by napolitani) and I can even
endure the sappy melodramatic plot devices because it's helping my
ears adjust.
Nice to chat with you again...

 write "realiZe" and not "realise." :-)
Right.
Kiuhnm

 wrote in message 
news:6k5857F...@mid.individual.net...

And the same is true even for some native speakers !
I certainly think there are things in K's approach to recommend it - my 
accent in French , modern Greek and Italian is abysmal , and I think it 
might have been much better if someone had offered me a little advice on how 
sounds are actually made (i.e. position of tongue etc.etc.) ; it never 
occurred to me , for instance , that a 't' or an 'l' wasn't the same in all 
these languages ;  even if you have the opportunity to listen to a language 
quite often (I didn't) , it's not so easy (unless you're a born mimic) to 
reproduce the sounds - as K. has often said , you usually 'hear' the sound 
you *think* you are making , rather than the one you really produce ; I 
remember long ago a Swedish girl coaching me in the pronunciation of one of 
her native vowels : I had every incentive to please , but even when I gave 
what seemed to me the perfect echo of the sound she had just made , she 
simply laughed , said 'No!' , and repeated it again - maybe if she'd given 
me a little instruction about where to put my tongue , I'd have done better 
(oh dear , that dreadful English humour again !) . For me , now , of course, 
it's too late (=I'm too lazy to cure bad habits).
Mike 

 cure bad habits).
:-) 

 really sound in rapid, casual speech? (whatchu), etc.
But you can always aim to sound like a well-spoken and cultured native.
Antonio

 Italian "as she is spoke"
I've caught myself watching "Affari Tuoi" before now. I like to think that 
at least it's one step up from following the Italian equivalent of 
"Eastenders" or "Emmerdale". But ever since "Deal or No deal" showed up, 
I've realised I'm not even fooling myself :-)
Antonio

 tongue , I'd have done better 
;)

> articolations 
articulations

 ears adjust.
In "Un posto al sole" usano moltissime espressioni dialettali italianizzate 
e di certo il loro linguaggio è identico a quello usato nella vita reale 
(almeno per quel che mi riguarda), però tieni ben presente che solo in 
un'area ristrettissima della penisola si parla così: basta andare 200 km a 
nord (Roma) e gli accenti e gli 'speech patterns' cambiano in maniera 
sensibile... 


The film "Schachnovelle", starring Curt Jurgens, based on a short story by
Stefan Zweig, is the story of a man who is confined to a small hotel room by
the Gestapo, who are attempting to break him down by isolating him.. He
somehow gets hold of a book containing the rules of chess. He is totally
unfamiliar with the game, but he memorizes the rules and openings, and using
the grid pattern formed on the ceiling by the light passing through the
curtains on his window, he starts to play imaginary chess games as he lies
in bed. Eventually he escapes, and gets to play his first "real" game of
chess, against the world champion, whom he happens to meet on board a ship.
He comes to a bad end, because he is too good a chess player. You'll have to
see the film, or read Stefan Zweig's short story to find out the logical
ending to the story.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054272/plotsummary
Joe from Massachusetts

 find out the logical ending to the story.
Logical ending? He's checkmated? ;)

 wrote in message
news:xn0fvzm4...@news.lillathedog.net...

Check-"matto"-ed, to coin a phrase.
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:TUjGk.4772$rd1....@newsfe14.iad...

http://rapidshare.com/files/150090329/Stefan_Zweig_-_Schachnovelle.pdf.html
Joe from Massachusetts