Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: The Latin verb "facere".

I understand it to be the equivalent of the Italian verb "fare".
I watched the film "Passion of the Christ" yesterday. The film is
partly in Latin. These Roman guards were beating Christ and one of
shouted joyfully "facciamo musica!" which I immediately understood,
but I don't understand how "facere" can conjugate the same as "fare"
have I misunderstood what was said?



I haven't seen that fim. Anyway,"facciamo musica" is Italian. 
See 
http://www.verba.org/owa-verb/verba_dba.verba_LA.select_page?query_verba=facere
for the conjugation of the Latin verb "facere".

 I haven't seen that fim. Anyway,"facciamo musica" is Italian.
Shouldn't it be something like "facimus musica" in Latin? Sounds like a
continuity slip.


 I understand it to be the equivalent of the Italian verb "fare".

I haven't seen that film. Anyway,"facciamo musica" is Italian. 


"jonny" <j...@jj.jj> ha scritto

Hi Jonny, I'm not sure of what you're asking, but I show you latin and
italian versions in comparison:
Infinitve italian : Fare  Infinitive latin: Facere
I do  - (It) : faccio (Latin):  facio;
You do - (It) :  fai  (Latin):  facis;
He does - (It) :  fa  (Latin):  facit;
We do - (It):  facciamo (Lating):   facimus;
You do - (It):  fate [facete is an archaic form] (Latin): facitis;
They do - (It):  fanno (Latin): faciunt;
http://www.informalmusic.com/latinsoc/verbs/facio.html
In any case I wonder to hear ancient latins saying : "facciamo musica". This
is italian, not latin.
I guess an ancient Roman could have said : "Facimus musicam" or better
"canimus" (cano, canis, cecini, cantum, care, from wihich the italian
"cantare", in latin means to play instrumental music also).

 wrote:

Thanks, It must have been "facimus or faciamus musica" either that or
they made a mistake, which I doubt, I only heard it once.

"jonny" <j...@jj.jj> wrote in message
news:flcnh0hm67013ncft...@4ax.com...

I didn't see the movie. Was the "c" pronounced like "k" or "ch"? If the
latter (Italianate pronunciation) I can see how it might be confused with
"facciamo". I believe that in the Latin of the Republic and the early
Empire, "c" was always pronounced as "k", although I could be mistaken.

 Thanks, It must have been "facimus or faciamus musica" either that or
Then it must have been "musicam", accusative.
[Latin music? Was it salsa or bossa nova? ;-) ]

[Latin music? Was it salsa or bossa nova? ;-) ]
It was the Roman torture :(

 I didn't see the movie. Was the "c" pronounced like "k" or "ch"?
A Catholic priest supervised the dialogue, so the pronunciation must have
been the Ecclesiastic. Luckily enough, I add, for restored pronunciation is
a "chiavica".
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 Empire, "c" was always pronounced as "k", although I could be mistaken.
This is an old diatribe here. I can't guess the way to ascertain original
pronunciation. In my opinion the transition from a guttural form to a  non
croaky one must be very traumatic. It is difficult to imagine such a change.
I think the true reason of this latin is that is more appealing to imagine
warriors without  the sweetness of italian words.

 audio clips. All "c"s are hard (see "civis").
kiwis?
 
-- 
oggi no, domani sì

 oggi no, domani sě

 kiwis?
Infatti. Sarà anche così che parlavano i latini, ma la pronunkiatio
restituta fa straschifo.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)


I seem to remember reading in a book on generative grammar, possibly
by Noam Chomsky, that the evolution of sounds always progresses in the
same direction. That is, a hard "c" will always evolve into a soft
"c", and never vice-versa. This allows identifying what sounds are
older, and therefore closer, to the original language from which two
or more languages may have evolved. It is a little more difficult with
"dead" languages, since we can never be sure how the language was
spoken, unless written descriptions of the ancient pronunciation
exist.
Joe from Massachusetts

Yes, the typical Roman citizen was a hairy fruit from New Zealand :->.
That's the Kiwi fruit. A Kivi is bird unable to fly. Or a New
Zealander. :)
Sebastiano

 from e; if they ever misspelled ae it came out ai.
This one counts for "Caesar", not for "civis", though :) 

 wrote in message
news:xxcTc.140$_i...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...

Thanks for the information.
I remember when I was studying Latin, there were conflicts between
those who preferred the "hard c" sound and those who preferred the
"soft" sound. They didn't seem to be concerned about which was truer
to the original Latin. It seems that certain schools adhered to one
system, and other schools to the other.
There is still a widespread conflict about the pronunciation of the
word "Celtic" in the English language, even though the "correct"
English pronunciation should be with the "soft c".
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:digp237u6es9$.dlg@news.lillathedog.net...

Somewhere in here there's a joke about the Kaiser, but I'm not up to it.

also a listing for keltic as an alternate spelling.
There's a big football (soccer) team in Glasgow, Scotland, called
"Celtic", this is always pronounced "seltic" here (UK) but if one was
to talk about "Celtic languages", the pronunciation is always
"Keltic".

 wrote in message
news:iudTc.153$KH....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...

The Oxford Dictionary (at least the one I have) lists "seltic" as the
preferred pronunciation, with "keltic" as the alternative.
All the dictionaries list both pronunciations.
If you consider "Celtic" as an English word, evolved from Greek and
Latin just as "celtico" in Italian evolved from Latin, wouldn't the
preferred English pronunciation be "Seltic"?
Joe from Massachusetts.

 preferred pronunciation, with "keltic" as the alternative.
I've had the occasion to look "Celtic" up on The Shorter Oxford English
Dictionary (fifth edition), and it reads:
QUOTE
Celtic
/'kEltik/ [1], 's-/
Also Keltic /'k-/
UNQUOTE
[1] /'kɛltik/, in unicode.
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 secondary.
Anche il Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary sulla pagina
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=12146&ph=on
-- 
Xakero

 preferred English pronunciation be "Seltic"?
Le famose divergenze fra Cambridge e Oxford? Forse no.
Mi sono chiesto come lo insegnano a Oxford . 
http://www.oup.com/elt/oald/
 da
keltik come prima scelta, i dizionari cartacei The Oxford Concise
Dictionario del 1995 e del 1964 e l'Oxford Guide to the English Language
segnalano keltik come unica pronuncia. L'Oxford Advanced Dictionary of
Current English indica keltik, US seltik.
-- 
Xakero

 Current English indica keltik, US seltik.
Anche secondo  lo Zanichelli e l'Hazon Garzanti, la pronuncia morbida
sarebbe US.


My Compact Edition of the Oxford Dictionary (1976) says the
pronunciation is "Seltic, alternate Keltic". It may be that with
recent renewed interest in Celtic music, history, and culture, that
the less-English sounding pronunciation "Keltic" has become the
preferred pronunciation, in later editions of the Oxford, and other
dictionaries.
Joe from Massachusetts



Dato che si usa anche per una squadra di Glasgow, come ha detto Jonny, ho
idea che la differenza non sia tanto BritEng vs AmEng, ma uso colto vs uso
comune.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 Joe from Massachusetts
In friulano c'è un suono che ha preso il posto della C/G 
dure, si scrive CJ/GJ e ha una pronuncia a metà fra KY e TY 
(GY e DY rispettivamente)
p.es
. 
cane: cjan
casa: cjase
gatto: gjat
In alcuni luoghi la pronuncia è arrivata alla C/G molle:
cian, ciase, giat.
Questo fatto porta acqua al mulino di Chomsky (Chomsky's 
Mill)


 
Having lived in Boston for most of my life (and owing to the Bahston
Seltiks), I am condemned always to pronounce it with the soft C, much to
the chagrin of my Scottish neighbor.
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.