Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Urgentisssssssssssssssssssssssssimo!!!

I seguenti versi di Shakespeare:
"whoe'er keeps me, 
let my heart be his guard
and let my soul shake his spear."
da dove sono tratti, e che cosa significano?
Richiamo la vostra attenzione al subject, please.
Grazie in anticipo.
Marina

 and let my soul shake his spear."
I don't know this particular reference but it may be from one of his sonnets. It
means--whoever is a friend (whoever keeps me close to their heart) my affection
for him will compel me to protect him (let my heart be his guard) and I will
threaten or attack his enemies (let my soul shake his spear).
Essentially this guy is prejudiced toward defending anybody who will be his
friend, whether that friend is in the right or the wrong. Brave and high-minded
in its conception, pitiful and corrupt in its practice.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 whoever is a friend
I should have said "whomever."
In truth, "whomever" is seldom used as it once was.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 In truth, "whomever" is seldom used as it once was.
Dear Ron,
I know whomever is hardly ever used, but it does feel nice to say, doesn't
it?
--
I remain, as always, ecc., ecc.,
Bambi
dtb

 In truth, "whomever" is seldom used as it once was.
You know something, I think I was right the first time!
It should be "whoever."
I'll post again if I change my mind.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

"... to she who must be obeyed ..."
Hilda?
Ciao,
Ron
USA

USA
It shouldn't be "whoever", because this is not the subject of the sentence.
"My affection" is the subject. In fact, this sort of sentence is badly worded.
When you write:
"Whoever is a friend [,] my affection for him ... " you mean:
"My affection for whomever is my friend ..." or
"For whomever is my friend, my affection ..."
 
If you need to insert a parenthetic definition of a friend, it must
be in a congruent case:
"For whomever is my friend (that is, for whomever keeps me close to his 
heart), my affection will compel me ..."
"For whomever is my friend - and I call a friend a person who keeps me
close to his heart - my affection ..."
Of course, there is a complicating factor - it is becoming acceptable
to use the subject case following a preposition:
"... for he who is a friend ..."
"... to she who must be obeyed ..."
So, if one subscribes to this modern usage, then whoever or whomever
is correct. Whatever.
Raymot
[[[[[[[[[[[[

 case.  "Whoever" is still right.
eeyore wrong! (couldn't resist that)
Well, maybe you're not _wrong_ if I meant to say something else, but my sentence
as written with scant attention to grammar and in a phrasal style makes it
problematic. Ray rightly pointed out that I should have had a "for" in there,
which makes "affection" the subject:  "my affection for him, for whomever is a
friend, blah, blah, blah."
I probably should also point out that the last sentence of my original post
didn't even have a verb. I thought about that while writing it but opted for
style over correct grammar, as is often my want to do. Really, don't
worry about this. If you're writing in a situation where it matters you should
have a professional editor checking your work anyway.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

Grazie a tutti, 
ma a me serviva una semplice traduzione in italiano..............
Marina

 Marina
Può darsi che ci sia un po' di resistenza in questi giorni a rispondere
estensivamente a un post con  "Urgentisssssssssssssssssssssssssimo!!!" come
oggetto.
Forse, però, la ragione del silenzio risiede nel fatto che i primi due versi
si trovano nel sonetto 133
Sonnet 133
Beshrew that heart that makes my heart to groan
For that deep wound it gives my friend and me!
Is't not enough to torture me alone,
But slave to slavery my sweet'st friend must be?
Me from myself thy cruel eye hath taken,
And my next self thou harder hast engrossed:
Of him, myself, and thee, I am forsaken;
A torment thrice threefold thus to be crossed.
Prison my heart in thy steel bosom's ward,
But then my friend's heart let my poor heart bail;
Whoe'er keeps me, let my heart be his guard;
Thou canst not then use rigour in my jail:
And yet thou wilt; for I, being pent in thee,
Perforce am thine, and all that is in me.
mentre l'ultimo verso non c'entra niente, e mi sembra altamente sospetto,
con quel "shake his spear" ammiccante.
Qual è la provenienza di quei tre versi, Marina ?
E qual è la destinazione, visto che sono curioso ?
Ciao
Giorgio

Giorgio
Ahime', perche' non ho studiato le lingue, da piccola,
quando potevo e dovevo?
Adesso avrei evitato questa figuraccia.
Basta cosě, grazie a tutti.
marina (non merito neanche l'iniziale maiuscola)  

 marina (non merito neanche l'iniziale maiuscola)
Sì, alla fine vedo qual è il tuo problema, nessuno ha pensato di spiegare
che significano 'sti benedetti versi in italiano. Solo Ron aveva fornito
un'interpretazione, ma in inglese.
Dunque Ron disse:
. It
means--whoever is a friend (whoever keeps me close to their heart) my
affection
for him will compel me to protect him (let my heart be his guard) and I will
threaten or attack his enemies (let my soul shake his spear).
Essentially this guy is prejudiced toward defending anybody who will be his
friend, whether that friend is in the right or the wrong. Brave and
high-minded
in its conception, pitiful and corrupt in its practice.
Significa--chiunque sia un amico (chiunque mi tiene vicino al suo cuore), il
mio affetto per lui mi spingerà a proteggerlo (sia il mio cuore la sua
guardia) e minaccerò o attaccherò i suoi nemici (scuota la mia anima la sua
lancia).
Rimane il punto oscuro: donde vengono questi tre versi (due più uno) ?
Ciao
Giorgio