Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: sul congiuntivo...

Thank you Raymot for your answer.
I'm not so sure of good understanding on the correct use of subjuntive. Let
me try to show you my comprehension....
In Italian:
"Sarei felice se tu  fossi d'accordo con me"
"Sarebbe bello se tutti fossimo felici"
Are two sentences thet have a first part in conditional and a second part
expressed in subjuntive, so i should mean it in english in this way:
1)I would be happy/grateful if you would agree with me.  
or:
2) I would be happy/grateful if you agreed with me.
Either sentences have the same meaning, but in the first one i use two
conditional forms: "would be happy" and "would agree". In the second one
instead i use after the "if" the subjuntive form. Right?
Subjuntive is composed by verbs in the past form after the "if".
For the second sentences then i could tell:
1)It would be nice if we were to be happy.
2) It would be nice if we would be happy.
3)It would be nice if we were happy.
I would be grateful if you replied me at once.........( I think i've just
learn too much quickly!)Ah!Ah!
Hi, Fabio

Hi, Fabio
[ We don't say "Hi" on parting, only as a greeting (unlike Ciao) ]
Si`, sei un buon studente! Credo che migliorerai velocemente.
Ciao,
Raymot
========
Brisbane, Aus.
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
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Posted from 
qma...@enterprise.powerup.com.au
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via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
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Subjuntive is composed by verbs in the past form after the "if".
No, Fabio, I am sorry but that is definitely wrong. The subjunctive mood may
apply to either the present tense or the past tense. For example:
We demand that they be silenced. (subjunctive mood)
We demand that they are silenced. (Indicative mood)
I would like to explain this to you in Italian but unfortunately it takes more
time for me to write in Italian than I have available today. So, I will briefly
explain the most important points in English. I hope they will be clear to you.
Although there is a subjunctive verb tense in Italian, there is no subjunctive
verb tense in English. However, there are three moods in English:  indicative,
subjunctive, and imperative. The subjunctive mood is a minor point of grammar in
English, unlike the subjunctive verb tense in Italian which is widely used, and
in fact must be used in appropriate situations. Therefore, although I encourage
you to learn about it, please do not be overly concerned about learning it at
this stage in your English studies.
If you do intend to pursue this subject, I suggest you consult an authoritative
source. A good English grammar book should explain the subjunctive mood. In
brief, the subjunctive mood is used for the following:
1. conditions contrary to fact: "If I were a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning."
2. wishes, recommendations, and demands in clauses introduced by "that," or in
clauses in which "that" is implied: "If I were there, he would tell me the
truth."
3. idiomatic expressions:  "Be that as it may, you should only say what you know
for certain."
The subjunctive mood of the verb "to be" then is "be" in the present, and "were"
in the past, whether the subject is I, you, he, she, it, we, you, or they.
In bocca al lupo!
Ciao,
Ron
USA
principiante in italiano

thing.
Ciao, scusate l'intromissione ma, leggendo la risposta di Raymot, mi č sorto
un dubbio: io avrei considerato la prima frase (quella con would agree)
errata, visto che utilizza due condizionali anzichč un condizionale e un
congiuntivo. Qualcun altro č d'accordo oppure sbagliavo io??
Grazie per le illuminanti risposte.
Konrad

verb tense in English. However, there are three moods in English:
indicative,
As far as I know, subjunctive is considered a mood also in Italian. And
actually, it has its own verb tenses (presente, passato, imperfetto e
trapassato).
We have 4 modi finiti (indicative, subjunctive, conditional and imperative)
and 3 modi infiniti (infinitive, gerund and participle).
Bye
Konrad

Konrad
I am sorry but you are wrong. Both expressions are correct in English, but
there is a slight difference between those two phrases. In fact the one with
"if you agreed ..." is the basic phrase to show such a concept, while the
other one implies someone's will to change attitude or behaviour.This
example could even be clearer as far as it is concerned with expressions
such as "I wish ..." or "If only..." ("I wish you would be quiet" means "It
would be better for me if your behaviour were quiet").
Anyway, the first form("if you agreed...) is more often used.
Bye Asoka Valayil
sva...@tin.it

American linguistic customs.
I'm so glad to see Raymot, that you're not the argumentative type. I've found
that such people tend to try to prove themselves right at all costs, rather than
truly attempting to clarify for others. These tactics sometimes include
responding only to sections of others' quotes and misinterpreting meaning.
Who has time or patience for that?
Certainly not I!
Ciao,
Ron
USA

what you know for certain."
Ciao,
Raymot


Konrad
Forse io posso chiarificarlo se puoi dirmi perche' pensi che la frase con
due condizionali sarebbe errata.


due condizionali sarebbe errata.
Credo che Konrad non avrà difficoltà a sottoscrivere la mia opinione.
Ritengo che - per noi italiani - sia più un problema di istinto fonetico che
di pura grammatica.
Ciao
Isa

done. You can, however, demand that it be done.
So what's the problem with _We demand that they be silenced_? Isn't he
demanding that something be done?
Ciao
Isa

USA
I agree. I always find it much less traumatic, when I am wrong, simply
to accept correction and be thankful that I have learnt something. On the
other hand, if the other person is wrong, I don't mind saying so. This gives
the other person a chance to learn.
Anyhow, I hope Fabio has deduced the correct message from our posts.
Ciao,
Raymot
=======
Brisbane, Australia
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[


Isa
Capisco. Ti ringrazio per la spiegazione, Isa.
English is now spoken in so many places in the world, often as the
native tongue, that it is difficult to keep "pure". One only has to compare
BritEng and AmEng to realise that often there is not one "right" answer
(though there are usually many wrong answers!)
This makes life difficult for people like me with a prescriptivist streak,
but "them's the breaks!"
Suffice to say that, in modern English, a conditional often works where
Italian requires a congiuntivo.
The point of my post to Konrad was that one cannot accept an English
sentence as being incorrect simply because it doesn't follow Italian
grammatical rules; and I was wondering whether this is where his
misunderstanding was occurring.
Ciao,
Raymot


Isn't he demanding that something be done?
Appunto! He is not demanding that something *is* done (which is
an absurdity). 
Another example:
1) Customer: I suggest that this be painted blue.
Painter: Certainly, no problem. I can do that.    (Correct)
2) Customer: I suggest that this is painted blue.
Painter: Surely not. It's painted red. Let's find a better light.
(Correct if it means what it says. Incorrect if the customer
wants it painted blue).


 naturale usarla.
E' forse il caso di chiarire meglio la questione, prima che
i lettori del newsgroup si convincano che in inglese si puo`
impunemente sostituire un congiuntivo con un condizionale. Questo
e` gia` uno dei piu` comuni errori di grammatica degli italiani
secondo Beppe Severgnini, che prende sportivamente in giro se
stesso per aver detto "If we would have given them a billion
each..." ai microfoni della BBC [_L'inglese - Lezioni semiserie_].
Nella frase 1) *non* ci sono due condizionali.  Se e` vero che
al condizionale italiano corrisponde, di regola, la costruzione
con "should/would" in inglese, non e` affatto vero il contrario.
In generale, la corrispondenza fra i costrutti di due lingue e`
solo parziale, praticamente mai biunivoca.
"would" in "you would agree" non e` un ausiliare.  E' il verbo nel
suo significato originario di "volere".  H.W. e F.G. Fowler, nel
loro "The King's English", lo chiamano "an original pure-system or
coloured-future _would_" (usando la terminologia che inventano per
una finissima analisi dell'uso di "shall/will", "should/would") e
citano George Eliot:
"It would be much better if you would not be so hypocritical,
Captain Wybrow"
parafrasando: "if you consented not to be / did not insist in
being".
"would" e` quindi il congiuntivo di "(to) will" e la frase 1)
si puo` tradurre: "Sarei contento/grato, se tu volessi essere
d'accordo con me".  Questo suona piuttosto innaturale in italiano,
ma lo stesso puo` dirsi della frase inglese: uno non puo`
_decidere_ di pensarla allo stesso modo di un'altra persona.
Sarebbe invece idiomatico:
"I would be happy/grateful if you would agree to this" (meglio:
"I should be happy/grateful")
--
   Gianfranco Boggio-Togna
   (Milano)

"I should be happy/grateful")
I believe that in today's English, "would" is meglio che "should" here.
Maybe you should be happy, but would you be?
Fowler, of course, would disagree; but he's dead (I think -- if not,
he should be).
Bye, 


"We demand that they are silenced".
Oh! I see the point now.
Ciao
Isa

   (Milano)
Ragazzi, non fatevi fregare - è il fratello di Ferdinando, adottato, questo
spiega il diverso cognome... :-)
Ciao
Isa

Scusa l'interruzione OT: ma come si fa questo 'accentino'? Alt+...?
Alt + 0 9 6
*Come fare per saperlo?
Copia la frase con il carattere incriminato in Notepad
Apri il file di testo con un editor esadecimale (ce ne sono di freeware su
TuCows)
E leggi il codice corrispondente al carattere, in questo caso 60
Converti in decimale
0 * 16^0 + 6 * 16^1 = 0+96 = 96
Mi farebbe piacere che qualcuno correggesse gli errori di grammatica (e
peggio) nella 'traduzione' qui sotto.
Non solo, ma vorrei anche una traduzione la piů letterale possibile di
quanto scritto sopra. In paricolare di "come fare per saperlo" e di "ce ne
sono di freeware su TuCows"
*What to do to get it?
Just copy the sentence containing the mischievious character into Notepad
Open the text file using an hexadecimal editor (at the Tucows website you
may find it as freeware)
And read the code corresponding to the character, 60 in this case
Convert to decimal
0 * 16^0 + 6 * 16^1 = 0+96 = 96
so che la versione italiana č scritta male
e che le traduzioni non possono essere completamente letterali
ma di sicuro si puň fare di piů...
ciao,
Peltio

suo significato originario di "volere".
Grazie, stavo facendo le valigie per ritirarmi in un eremo e non parlare più
con nessuno in nessuna lingua. Ora che l'ho capita mi chiedo come mai non
l'avessi intuito subito. (Non suggerite, ci voglio arrivare da solo).
Forse che la parola 'elettronica' abbia un effetto diverso da quella che è
su semplice carta? No eh? Sono io, vero?...
occhei,
ciao,
Peltio