Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Dubbio su haven't

Ciao a tutti...
    vedendo degli esempi di grammatica, ho notato che alcune volte viene
utilizzato
doesn't have qualche cosa....
quando io avrei usato haven't qualche cosa
Che differenza tra i due?
quando usare il doesn't (o il don't) e quando solo have o haven't
Grazie per l'aiuto

> quando usare il doesn't (o il don't) e quando solo have o haven't
è un'errore comune... have si accoppia o con do/does o con have got nn 
esiste da solo 


Interchangeable , really . Often the 'hasn't / haven't' form becomes 'hasn't 
got / haven't got' , especially in informal speech  ; and sometimes 'hasn't 
/ haven't' alone may sound more formal than 'doesn't have / don't have' , or 
'hasn't got , haven't got' , but that's by no means always the case .
Mike 

 'hasn't got , haven't got' , but that's by no means always the case .
Still, in my experience, which is considerably shorter than yours, "hasn't"
and "haven't" are used alone in somewhat fixed sentences, most often. For
instance, you usually write "I have nothing to do with them", but I've also
come across "What has it to do with... ?", which, I guess, is rather/very
formal (or maybe it was used jokingly and I didn't realize). Still,
supposing I'm right about "What has it to do with... ?", you couldn't say
"What have they to do with... ?", could you?
By the way, perhaps you can answer this question: what was said when "I
have it not" was already old-fashioned and "I haven't got it" and "I don't
have it" weren't common or completely acceptable yet? I don't suppose "I
haven't it"—let alone "I have not it"—and "Have you it?" have ever been
said; at least, not in the last two centuries (but I may be mistaken), and
yet I'm still not convinced that "I haven't got it" and "Have you got it?"
were the only possibilities, even then.
Bye, FB
-- 
"The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live, that is what I mean—so
Bunbury died."
"He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

I haven't a clue. ;-)
In linea di massima, "I haven't a widget" suona strano, ma "I don't
have a widget" va bene.
"I haven't a clue" e "I haven't a hope of..." mostrano che la versione
con "haven't" e' possibile in alcuni casi. Swan cosa dice?

 Swan cosa dice?
Poco.
-- 
Emily: "I'm going to Europe and I'm going to have a marvellous time. I'm
going to get up at ten and have two glasses of wine at lunch every single
day."
Richard: "Only prostitutes have two glasses of wine at lunch!"
(Gilmore Girls, 501)

Credevo di aver posto una domanda banale, invece mi accorgo che è un
problema abbastanza comune....
posso concludere questo ??
forma affermativa: solo have
forma nagativa: don't/doesn't have
spero di non aver scritto una fesseria....
Grazie a tutti per le risposte!

 esiste da solo
I haven't a clue where you picked up this idea , but I have no doubt at all
that it's mistaken . There's two examples .
Mike 

E forma interrogativa?
"Have you an apple?" / "Have you got an apple?" / "Do you have an
apple?" ?
interrogativa negativa?
"Haven't you an apple?" / "Haven't you got an apple?" / "Don't you have
an apple?" ?

 forma nagativa: don't/doesn't have
Quando "have" viene utilizzato come ausiliario, il negativo è sempre
"haven't".
-- 
Mary



Would you actually say "Have you an apple?" and "Haven't you an apple?"?
Now I'm surprised, too. (smiling face)
Bye, FB
-- 
"It sounds appalling!"
"Interesting and appalling. The others just sound appalling!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

No. I included them because , superficially, they would appear to be
possible. Hence the final question mark after each group of questions.
Actually, they sound old-fashioned rather than wrong, but unless
you're very good at imitating Terry Thomas, I'd suggest you
avoid them.
Of course "Have you eaten a wombat?" and "Haven't you eaten a wombat?"
are fine. "Have you any eggs?" isn't as extraordinary as all that.
Consider:
FUNEX?
S, IFXNM
etc. which is a well-known puzzle.

 are fine. "Have you any eggs?" isn't as extraordinary as all that.
The o.p. might appreciate this:
http://groups.google.it/group/alt.usage.english/msg/1434262d0abb000e?hl=it&
At all events, she'd better know that do-forms and got-forms are safe, the
first being a bit more formal in BritEng and more usual in AmEng (as far as
I know), the forms without either being risky, unnecessary and somewhat
fixed. Of course, I'm referring to "to have" when it means "to own". When
it is used in such sentences as "I have dinner", do-forms are to be used.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
"Hey, Mr. Gilmore. Best wish... Congrat... Nice suit!"
(Gilmore Girls - 513)


Usare il do insieme a have è un po' americano ma è accettato comunque.
Io personalmente preferisco utilizzare have got or haven't got.
Il gotten è un po' troppo americano invece, per me sarebbe da evitare.
ciao 

 Il gotten è un po' troppo americano invece, per me sarebbe da evitare.
"Got" e "gotten" hanno usi diversi, e in AmEng usare "got" coll'accezione
di "gotten" è sub-standard.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 "Fawlty Towers".
How's Fawlty Towers? 



I've only seen the first two episodes, and it seems funny. It's not really
my genre, though.
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)


An interesting question - I'll have to think about it , and hope that 
someone else comes up with the answer in the meantime .
By the way , FB , why is it that when I click on some of your posts , a 
message appears telling me that I need to install the Chinese Traditional 
language pack ? When I click 'Cancel' , your posting appears anyway , but in 
a different font to the usual  (luckily not in Chinese) .
Mike

 fixed.
but the forms without either occur more commonly than you imply (certainly 
in the speech of reasonably educated people - and there seems no reason why 
the non-native speaker should set out to exclude himself from that group, to 
which he would seem to belong by virtue of the very fact that he is learning 
English ) . I would say , for example , 'I haven't time to look at it now , 
but I will when I get back' without any sense whatsoever of being formal , 
or old , or conservative . Forms such as 'I've no idea what it means' are 
absolutely commonplace , with no suggestion whatsoever of superior education 
or greater formality . You say 'don't have' forms are 'a bit more formal in 
BritEng' than 'haven't got' forms , which is possibly true on occasion , but 
I'd say that in the vast majority of cases there's nothing to choose between 
them , and both are perfectly colloquial .
Learners may , of course , choose to go for forms  untainted by any 
suggestions of educated usage , in which case they shouldn't forget to 
average one 'f***' in every four words .
Mike

 BritEng' than 'haven't got' forms
And of do-forms in American, which, I understand, are the ordinary choice.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
Marcel: Gentlemen, may I present Miss Betty DeBoop from the Islands?
Colonel Schlissel: Caribbean or Virgin?
Betty DeBoop: Well, let's just say I came back a Caribbean.
(The Cheap Detective)

 a different font to the usual  (luckily not in Chinese) .
Some of my very recent posts? I bet it's because I've taken on writing the
em-dash with an actual em-dash ("—"), whereas I used to get it with two
hyphens. It's already created problems, so I guess I'll have to go back to
the good ol' expedient. (smiling face)
Bye, FB
-- 
"What meaning of this, Mitter Twain?" "I will tell you, Mr Wang, if you can
tell me why a man who possesses one of the most brilliant minds of this
century can't say his prepositions or articles"
(Murder by Death)

 you say "Have you <no "got"> time to discuss it now?".
Yes , I might well ; just as I might say , 'If you have time , you  might 
just take a look at ...' ; I might use the 'got' forms , too , but I 
wouldn't be making a choice on the basis of greater or less formality .
Mike

 that it's mistaken . There's two examples .
Probably it wouldn't be so "absolute" ... probabily i don't remember some 
particular ;) 

 wrote in message 
news:u34ixqzex8en$.6s8mut3dj9ec.dlg@40tude.net...

Of the list between QUOTE and UNQUOTE , I might use any of these (one or two 
seem to me unimpeachable paradigms of correct usage !)
'I haven't much hope about that' sounds odd , but it's the 'about' I'm 
dubious about . I might say , e.g. , 'I haven't much hope of sorting this by 
Monday.' 'Haven't *a* hope' (='haven't any chance whatsoever') is very 
common - 'She hasn't a hope of getting off with Rodney - he's not that way 
inclined .'
'What have I to do in order to' I probably wouldn't use ; firstly , because 
I think I'd just say 'to' , not 'in order to' , and secondly because I'm 
much more like to say ,'What must I do to ...'
'I haven't that book' wouldn't be said by anyone .
Mike 

 'I haven't that book' wouldn't be said by anyone .
You see? How can a non-native speaker tell where "haven't" or "have... ?"
are acceptable? I only seem to understand that it's appreciably
commoner--yet not required--with abstract nouns ("hope", "idea", "time",
"energy", "chance" [1]) and in stock-phrases, such as "I haven't a clue".
There's "I haven't a penny", but I don't suppose "I haven't a pound" is
very likely to be said. Is it?
You say nobody would use "I haven't that book", and that's probably what
would immediately spot a beginner in the usage of "to have". (smiling face)
I once wrote "I haven't a dead-key on my keyboard" or something like that,
and Mary pointed it out as quite unlikely.
[1] Let's see if it works, shall we? 
I appreciate very much yours, or anybody's, pointing out that a sentence is
not idiomatic, but try to ignore it when deciding whether "haven't" or
"have... ?" are acceptable.
1a) "I haven't any disappointments to talk to you about." 
1b) "Have you any disappointments to talk to me about?"
2a) "I haven't a very precise notion of what you mean by 'respect'."
2b) "Have you a very precise notion of what respect is?!"
3a) "Actually I haven't any more love to share."
3b) "Have you any more love to share?" 
4a) "As an old man, he hadn't any of the ideals he used to cherish as a
young man."
4b) "Had he any ideals at all?"
Bye, FB
-- 
"Qualcuno, meglio se un fidanzato, dovrebbe comunicare a Xxxxxxx Xxxxx che
scrivere libri non fa per lei. Per il suo bene (e il nostro, soprattutto)."
(Recensione di Antonio D'Orrico sul Corriere della Sera Magazine)

 'got' .
Of course, there's plenty of older speakers, and there's nothing wrong with
being old, but you've got to be old to say some things, I understand (I'm
not referring to this very discussion any more, because I'm waiting for
your ultimate word on it). For example, I recently learnt that
"five-and-twenty" and other such numbers are still used in England to tell
the time, but more or less everyone on alt.usage.english agreed that while
it is o.k. if you're at least thirty (if I recall correctly), it's a bit
preposterous if you're twenty or fifteen.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 preposterous if you're twenty or fifteen.
I'm 38 and wouldn't say it. And don't recall ever hearing it
used by anyone at all.

ordinary? 
I think I still use it from time to time, and I probably wouldn't even
notice 
if someone else my age (60) used it.  But I would probably be slightly 
surprised to hear it from a 30-year-old.  So yes, a little old-fashioned,
not 
dialectal. 
Katy 
UNQUOTE
I didn't remember very well.
Bye, FB
-- 
"I love the smell of perfume and the thrill of a chase, and the moment of
conquest."
"I like thighs. Do you like thighs?"
(What's New Pussycat)