Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: personal pronouns she/her

Perchè si dice "Who is she?" e non "Who is her?"?
Grazie

Perchè si dice "Who is she?" e non "Who is her?"?
Scusate, forse perchè è subject del periodo come dicono qui...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv264.shtml

"hewii" <he...@none.invalid> wrote in message 
news:rn63m3dcop275eeak...@4ax.com...
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So how do you explain this :
(showing photo to a friend) 'This is me when I was 14'  (not 'This is I') ?
Mike 

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Eh... non lo so, per questo chiedevo (scev sono sempre io, ho fatto
confusione con gli account, maledetto Free Agent). Me lo spieghi?
Grazie

 (showing photo to a friend) 'This is me when I was 14'  (not 'This is I') ?
"This is I" *is* correct, even if people don't use it.
Kiuhnm

 Perchè si dice "Who is she?" e non "Who is her?"?
In Latin, as you know, there are six cases: nominative, genitive, 
dative, accusative, vocative and ablative. Italian and English make a 
rough distinction between nominative and accusative, while the other 
cases have been superseded by the prepositions.
"She" is nominative whereas "her" is accusative. That's a rather 
simplistic view, but it's enough for our purposes.
We mainly use the nominative for subjects and the accusative for direct 
objects.
"I (subject, nominative) killed (verb) him (direct object, accusative)".
The verb 'is' is *special* because it can link two nominative elements:
"She (nominative) is (copula) nice (nominative)", but there is no way to 
show that "nice" is nominative; we don't need one.
But in "This is I" we can. "This" is nominative, "is" is the copula and 
"I" is still nominative. Anyway, common people hate strange rules so 
they prefer "This is me". "This makes me..." and "This is me" are 
similar, so why should we use "I" in one and "me" in the other? The 
difference is that "is" is a copula, i.e. it doesn't express an action 
but a state, a quality, etc...
1) "Who is she?" (nominative - nominative)
2) "Whom saw she?" (accusative - nominative)
3) "Who saw her?" (nominative - accusative)
What's the difference between these three direct questions?
Kiuhnm

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"It is I, Arthur, King of the Britons"
(Monty Python and the Holy Grail)
Kiuhnm

What's the difference between these three direct questions?
"Who is she": 'Who' è soggetto (nominative), 'is she' è un predicato
nominale, dove 'is' è copula e 'she' è *nominative*, giusto?.
Essendo un predicato nominale, uso i pronomi personali (quindi, she) e
non i pronomi personali complemento (her).
Come poi dici, nella lingua parlata si usano comunemente i pronomi
personali complemento (quelli all'accusativo) dopo il verbo 'to be',
nell'esempio di Mike: 
'This is me when I was 14'
Quel 'me' è in *realtà* un 'I', perchè fa parte del predicato nominale
e non è invece un complemento (dove invece avrei usato 'me' a giusta
ragione). Nella parlato però, si usa comunemente il
'me(you/him/her/it/us/you/them).
Ho capito qualcosa? Spero di si :)
Grazie

 Ho capito qualcosa? Spero di si :)
Yep, you got it right.
Kiuhnm

 2) "Whom saw she?" (accusative - nominative)
Whom DID she SEE?
Sorry.
Kiuhnm

 "This is I" is correct, even if people don't use it.
Scusa, ma questa tua affermazione mi pare intrinsecamente contraddittoria,
dato che una  lingua, con le sue norme e convenzioni, non vive per volontà
dello Spirito Santo ma anche e soprattutto perché "people use it" ;D
Se "people don't use it" (come pare confermare una ricerchina Google sui
siti britannici .uk, che trova la bellezza di zero occorrenze di "This is I
when..."), non credo si possa affermare che quella forma "is correct".
Quæstioni tuæ - "This is I when" site:uk - nullum documentum congruit.
-- 

 dello Spirito Santo ma anche e soprattutto perché "people use it" ;D
"Not used" doesn't necessarily mean "wrong". Between "Correct" and 
"Incorrect" you have "Uncommon", "Old-fashioned" and "Archaic".
For instance, will subjunctives be considered wrong in 30 years? I don't 
think so.
Kiuhnm

 (Monty Python and the Holy Grail)
Attendendo lumi dai native speaker, provo a dire la mia.
Non mi pare lo stesso "It it I, Arthur" e "This is I when I was 14".
Anch'io potrei dire, volendo suonare old fashioned. "It is I, Henry, King
of the Britons...".  :DDD
"It is I" mi pare una formula fissa, congelata nel tempo, che sopravvive
nonostante la prevalenza di "It is me" nell'inglese moderno.
Questo però, credo, non si può applicare a qualsiasi costruzione analoga.
"This is I when I was 14" mi suona piuttosto improbabile, correggetemi se
sbaglio.
L'inglese non è il latino o il tedesco.
Su "It's me" vs "It is I".
http://www.alphadictionary.com/blog/?p=41
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxitsmev.html
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 wrote:
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Sapendo ora cosa leggere, ho guardato su una grammatica e ho trovato:
<cite>
Nell'inglese parlato si usano comunemente i pronomi personali
all'accusativo anche dopo il verbo 'to be', nella forma impersonale
con 'it':
Who is it? It's me/him/her/us/them
Le forme 'it's I/he/ecc.' sono sentite come libresche e pedanti.
</cite>
In questo esempio con 'it', dice quindi che queste forme sono si
corrette ma non usate, ti trovi?

 corrette ma non usate, ti trovi?
Non del tutto. Anzitutto, mi pare che "It is I" sia usato, seppure da
pochi, mentre non sono sicuro che si usino frasi come "That is I...". ecc.
Su questo, come dicevo, mi piacerebbe sentire la campana dei native speaker.
In ogni caso, bisogna anche intendersi sul significato della definizione di
"correttezza", rispetto a cosa? :)
 
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 "Incorrect" you have "Uncommon", "Old-fashioned" and "Archaic".
Se non si usa per nulla o quasi, IMHO non è "uncommon" (yet used,
sometimes) e neppure "old fashioned" (yet used). Semmai è "archaic" o
"obsolete". :D
Se non si precisa altrimenti, però, di default immagino che si parli di
inglese moderno, non dell'inglese arcaico.
-- 

 wrote:
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Scusa, se č vero che l'inglese distingue quali pronomi personali usare
quando sono subject/object di una sentence (come dice anche quel Roger
Woodham nel link alla BBC), č quella la regola che stabilisce la
correttezza :). "It's me/That is me" secondo quanto ho letto sono
comunemente accettati, ma la regola dice altro. Io cosě ho capito...
:)

 wrote in message
news:xn0fexv2z...@news.lillathedog.net...
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 "Who is it?" "It's me".
When the rock star finally arrives in front of the theater, the girls gasp
"It's him!".
If someone says "It is I", it is usually for comic effect.
Why do the French always avoid the nominative when they say "C'est moi"?
Why, on the other hand, do Italians always choose the nominative when they
say "Sono io"?
Why do English speakers avoid the nominative, even though it is technically
correct, and say instead "It's me"?
Because.
Joe from Massachusetts

 If someone says "It is I", it is usually for comic effect.
That's interesting. Indeed that quote of King Arthur's was from a comic
movie, set in ancient times. :)
Let's move to next question: would a native speaker ever say "That is I
when..." even for comic/archaic effect?
-- 

 :)
First of all , to answer Enrico C's earlier question , I believe that no 
native speaker would ever say 'That is I when' in any circumstances .(Of 
course , sentences such as 'It was I who' are perfectly common , though less 
formally many people would say 'me') .
Secondly , in the case of the original question , about 'Who is she?' , the 
BBC link doesn't apply , because 'she' is neither subject nor object , but 
complement of the verb 'to be' . My point was that , though complements are 
technically in the subject case (nominative) , in practise with personal 
pronouns they may in different situations be either subject case or object 
case .
Why ? To borrow Joe's succinct summary , 'because' !
Mike

 wrote in message 
news:476291c4$0$37194$4faf...@reader3.news.tin.it...
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You've understood what Kiuhnm is saying , but it isn't altogether right .
(to clear up a possible confusion first ,'complemento'in Italian='object' ; 
in English , 'complement'=the item which follows the 'copula' 'is' etc. , 
and which is theoretically in the subject case ; I shall therefore just use 
the terms 'nominative'(subject case) and 'accusative'(object case))
K suggests that using the object case after the 'copula' derives from common 
people not liking strange rules ('It's me' ; a dislike shared by the French 
, 'C'est moi' , but not the uncommon Italians !) , and that after the 
'copula' the subject case is always a viable (indeed , more correct) 
alternative . I disagree ; the rules of Latin grammar were never a 
prescription for the English language ; and though we have continued to use 
its vocabulary , it's often quite inadequate to describe real English usage 
.
Add to K's list 'Who is she?' etc
                        'That's him .'
'Him' , following the copula 'is' , "should" be nominative ('he') - but it's 
accusative . But  *no-one* would say 'That's he.' The latter is not viable 
and it's not correct (except when measured by the criterion of the grammar 
of another language , Latin) . Similarly , 'That's me when I was 14' is not 
a populist version of the 'correct' form 'That's I when...' , but is ('in 
*realtà*) standard English , universally used .
So it's not in general , as you suggest , a case of using the object form 
after 'is' in the spoken language ; to take your original example , 'Who is 
she ?' No-one , however common , however uneducated , however resistant to 
the rules of Latin , even in the most informal of spoken language , would 
ever say 'Who is her ?'
Mike

 , universally used .
That was my point, as well. :)
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 borrow Joe's succinct summary , 'because' !
Word order logic? 
French influence?
-- 

 Yes.
Non direi. In "who is she?", "she" è il soggetto. Se fosse "who" dovrei
anche dire "who is you?", mentre diciamo "who are you?". (O meglio:
potremmo anche dire "who is you?", ma avrebbe un significato
sostanzialmente diverso da quello di cui si sta presumibilmente
discutendo.)
Max

 discutendo.)
Beh, "who is you" lo vedo come un "e tu chi cacchio sei?". Sbaglio?
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"Tonight's the night. And it's going to happen again, and again. Has to 
happen. Nice night."

 common people not liking strange rules.
Prove me wrong. Of course I'm speaking of a slow process.
You could take some grammar or just this:
http://www.udel.edu/eli/questions/g06b.html
"Many prescriptive textbooks say that pronouns that are used as the 
complement of a linking verb (as in "This is I") should be in subject 
case. However, descriptively (based on how native speakers actually use 
English), the object case is usually used: "this is me."
QED.
Kiuhnm

 Non direi. In "who is she?", "she" è il soggetto.
Oh, what a lapse! Thanks for pointing it out.
Too many mistakes in that post (independently of the fact that one might 
not agree with me about the main point).
Kiuhnm

 
Boh. 
Io immaginavo che di fronte, ad esempio, a una foto che ritrae diverse
persone uno potesse chiedere "who is you?", nel senso di "which of them is
you?". Ma forse non va bene.
Max


wrote:
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Che errore cacchio... E' giusto così invece?
she : soggetto
is : copula
who : predicato nominale

 wrote:
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Quindi,
she : soggetto
is : copula
who : predicato nominale
giusto?

Why ? To borrow Joe's succinct summary , 'because' !
Aspetta sono confuso. Leggendo la risposta di Max, in "Who is she?"
'she' è il soggetto perchè è la persona di cui si parla.
Ad esempio, in 'Who knows?' invece il soggetto è 'who'.
Sei d'accordo?
Se è così, il problema di usare she/her non esisteva in partenza :)
Grazie

 you?". Ma forse non va bene.
Va benissimo, invece. Non ci avevo proprio pensato! Va da sč che "who is 
you?" nella mia traduzione č fortemente colloquiale o per lo meno dove 
l'ho sentito io con quell'accezione lo era.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
P.S. Noti niente di strano nella mia firma? :-))
-- 
"I've had enough trouble for a lifetime"

 Oh, what a lapse! Thanks for pointing it out.
Oh , dear ! Yes , thanks , Max . I fell into the trap too .
(Though I stand by the rest of what I said.)
Mike