Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: What's a guinea worth?

I thought the guinea, under the old pound/shilling/pence system worth
21 shilling, had gone out of use with the arrival of the decimal
system but on a broadcast yesterday I heard about a race horce having
been sold for two and a half million guineas, and
http://dictionary.cambridge.org
 tells me that a guinea is worth GBP
1.05.
Good to know that the British hold on to their old traditions. The bob
(shilling), crown and half-crown, on the other hand, presumably are
lost for ever.
---
Xakero

 writes

Horse racing is probably the only place that you'll find guineas still
used.  One major race is known as "The Two Thousand Guineas" after the
prize.
        They disappeared from general usage in the 50s, I remember
tailor's windows with suits priced in guineas.  Professional fees,
solicitors, etc. were given in guineas up till c.1955.
They still use furlongs (one eighth of a mile - 220 yards) to mark out
the course in horse racing, so you'll hear commentators saying "Coming
into the final furlong .......  is in the lead.  Horses' heights are
measured in "Hands". So they are high on tradition.
Cheers
-- 
John G Davies

 wrote in message
news:f3596b57.02011...@posting.google.com...

Isn't that just typical of the horsy set! They are trying to show us that
they have 'old money' (i.e. their families have been rich for many
generations).  A guinea is indeed  worth 1 pound and 1 shilling. It was once
a gold coin (a golden guinea).
And why did we have such a strange coin?
Because we also had a money system where 12 pence = 1 shilling and 20
shillings = £1.
I struggled for most of my school life trying to do arithmetic with this old
currency.  The decimal currency was introduced when my time at school was
about to finish!
Evi

Everybody laughs at the poor old Brits (quite right) but I've lived in
Holland and Italy and found that there were usually local weights and volume
measures that weren't part of the metric system. In any case, we got the old
monetary system from the Romans!



I have never seen or heard of weights or volumes that weren't part of
the metric system in Italy; I'm not saying that such things might not be
used in some circumstances, but of all the places I have been I have
never run into a non metric measure. 
As for the Romans, I have no idea why they came out with such a 
twisted system but I am sure nobody is missing that.
+--
I know you can't speak, I know you can't sign
So cry right here on the dotted line

 never run into a non metric measure.
Sure. I've heard in my region about the "spanna" (span). It's use only
in dialect talks and not measuring but talking about a measure. Like
"It's more or less 3 spans" But today nobody use that. Even in the normal
talks. It was my old granfather. He used to say "spanna" and
even "schei", were "schei" is a dialect name for centimeters (and
even for money...). Well, at least we do not destroy billions of dollars
for a measuring mistake like N.A.S.A. did.
Well, we destroy money for other problems ;)
There's a Metrical Decimal System in the science business. And we
use it even in common life. Easy 1, 10, 100, 1000. 0.1, 0.01, 0.001
and so on :)
Sebastiano

"It's more or less 3 spans" But today nobody use that. Even in the normal
That is exactly what I meant, those are just figures of speech and are 
never used for real measures.


>"It's more or less 3 spans" But today nobody use that. Even in the normal
The "Imperial System" has its origins in the proportions of the human
body.
The inch - pollice in Italian, pouce in French, pulgada in Spanish, is
the width of an adult man's thumb.
The foot the length of an adult man's foot, which is about 12 thumbs
widths - try it for yourself.
A yard is the distance from an adult man's nose to the tip of his
fingers which is about 3 feet.
All these measures were used throughout Europe, though standardised at
slightly different levels, until the introduction of the decimal system
- in some cases by Napoleonic conquests.
The span and the cubit - distance from fingertip to elbow were little
used in Britain, though the "hand" continues in use for the height of
horses.
When did Italy become fully metric?
Yours in metrology ;-)
-- 
John G Davies

When did Italy become fully metric?
Officially, on 27th October, 1803  (
http://www.unimo.it/lbo/66sto.htm
) 
A major accomplishment, if you consider that normally we 
in Italy can't even agree on the time of day :)


 Yours in metrology ;-)
ehhe ;)
Can't you explain me something?
You got inches, feet, yards and?
Miles is from the same system?
And little than that? Like our millimetres?
In a normal speech having a table long 2.514 metres (I'm not using 
the dot like we italians use it, it's not 2.514Km) what do you say
measuring it?
[If I remember right 1 inch=2.54cm If I'm wrong what I'm saying is ok
the same :)]
The length of the table is: 
in inches:
99[.1] inches
in Yards:
2 Yards 2 feet 3 inches and that 0.1?
In feets:
8 feet 3 inches and that 0.1?
We:
2.514 metres
25.14 decimetres
251.4 centimetres
2514 millimetres
or, but it's stupid:
0.002514 Kilometres
2514000 micron
and so on. An easy 10to10. From the exametres (10^18) to the 
attometres (10^-18]. But they're less common :)
Simply yours ;)
Sebastiano

 2 Yards 2 feet 3 inches and that 0.1?
I do it alone. 2 Yards 2 feet 3 inches and half line (more or less)
I found that line :).
So it is:
1 statute mile = 8 furlongs
1 furlong = 10 chains
1 chain = 4 rods
1 rod = 5.5 yards
1 fathom = 2 yard
1 yard = 3 feet
1 feet = 12 inches
1 inch = 12 lines
Hard ;)
1 chilometro = 1000 metri
1 chilometro = 10 ettometri*
1 ettometro = 10 decametri*
1 decametro= 10 metri
1 metro = 10 decimetri*
1 decimetro= 10 centimetri
1 centimetro= 10 millimetri
Easy :)
*not so used. It's used to say 150 metres or 25 centimetres instead
of 1 ettometre and 50 decametres or 20 decimetres and 5 
centimetres.
Good night :)
Sebastiano

I do not look the past. I am pratical. 
Where did you get the idea that looking at the past may not be practical?
I would say that, cumbersome as it may seem today, that old way of
expressing measures was highly practical indeed. Not everybody  walks 
around carrying a meter in their pockets, but we all bring our thumbs and
feet with us at all times. So what is practical?


are never used for real measures.
Not really: In my area (Piedmont) peasants still measure areas with
"giornate".
One giornata (3810 square meters, if I remember correctly), obviously,
is supposed to be the area that a peasant can work through (?) in a
day.
You can find other local measure units for areas at the following
page:
http://www.stylo.it/enciclopedia/Professional/misure1.htm
--
Ciao
Frank

 feet with us at all times. So what is practical?
Electricians probably do walk with a meter in their pockets - a
multimeter. A builder may have a metre rule handy, and I keep a metre
(tape measure) rolled up for those occasions it could be useful. :-)
Cheers,
Loki
-- 
  Brevity is the soul of wit.    W.Shakespeare


I will go buy me a meter first thing tomorrow, who knows it may help
fighting that feeling of something missing in my life :)


 Where did you get the idea that looking at the past may not be practical?
Well, I explain it better.
I do not think that the past measures was not pratical, I only think that
today we're using an "International System" that it's better. Maybe it
is not so "pratical" like feet and yards but it's splitted in a better way.
When you use you eyes to measure something, a table for example,
you can say "its more or less two metres and half" or you can even
measure it using the spans (like we sometimes do when we need to
fit somthing somewere and we've not a metre). Or you can do the same with
yards and feet. Easy, not precise (botw ways), but easy.
The problem with the british and american system is not in the
common use of measuring stuff. If I got used to measure with yards it will
be easy for me to say "it's more or less x yards" and the same if I got used
to measure with the metres it will be easy to say "it's more or less x
metres".
The problem is in the relation between two measure is not the same
like the 10to10 of the metrical system.
We have 0.001-0.01-0.1-1-10-100-1000 and so on, the British
System is what? A mess! :)
So, in my humble opinion, nowadays the International System is
more pratical.
Cheers
Sebastiano
P.S.
I've no idea of the amount of mistakes :(

 
I've never heard that before.
The line certainly isn't used as a modern British measurement (not in
metrics, anyhow...).
The decimal system simply isn't used, so you don't have 0.1 inch but
fractions of an inch - 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc.
The nearest common equivalent to 0.1 inch would probably be 1/8".
Mary

the same :)]
The table is "two POINT five one four" metres long and an "inch" is
equivalent to "two POINT five four" centimetres.
Though this country is officially metric there is still a terrible
mixture of units used.  I was talking with two children aged 8 and 12
yesterday, they only knew their heights in feet and inches, their weight
in stones and pounds.  At school, particularly in Maths, Science and
Technology, and elsewhere outside they will measure in kilograms and
metres, but they don't use them for these measurements.
        In Science lessons we use a bathroom scale calibrated in Newtons
(100g gives a force of 1N) and they always ask "What is my weight in
stones"?
        As we say in Yorkshire "There's naught as queer as folk".


 tailor's windows with suits priced in guineas.  
As late as 1966 my London tailor quoted me his price for a suit in
guineas. I wouldn't know about today; I haven't had any suits made in
England since then.
---
Xakero

 fractions of an inch - 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc.
Ok. So you say 1 yard 2 feet 3 inches and 1/8?
Sebastiano

 As we say in Yorkshire "There's naught as queer as folk".
Nice. I've to use it sometimes :)
See ya
Sebastiano

 
1 yard, 2 feet, 3 and an eighth inches.
Mary

 1 yard, 2 feet, 3 and an eighth inches.
Thank you. Everything is like that? Every kind of measure?
n1° x, n2° y, n3° z and an n4°th w
Weight:
grain (maybe like the line, not used nowadays)
dram (27.34 grains)
ounce (16 drams)
pound (16 ounces)
stone (14 pounds)
quarter (2 stones)
central (100 ounces)
hundredweight (112 ounces)
ton (2240 ounces)
So it is:
2 quarters, 1 stone, 12 pounds, 8 ounces, 5 and an eighth drams.
And we're talking about GB. USA is slightly different.
That's pretty amazing for me. I've never tried to understand the
English measuring system.
Sebastiano

1 yard, 2 feet, 3 and an eighth inches.
Wouldn't you say ONE eighth?
-- 
Ciao
Frank

Nice. I've to use it sometimes
Minor correction
I must use it some time.
The full quote from what the Yorkshireman said to his wife:
"There's naught as queer as folk, Daisy, except thee and me, and thou's
a bit queer sometimes.
Cheers :-))
-- 
John G Davies

Ok. So you say 1 yard 2 feet 3 inches and 1/8?
No, one yard, two feet, three and an eight inches
You may often hear "one yard, two FOOT, three and an eight inches.


ton (2240 ounces)          -   should be 2240lbs
Note the lb. abbreviation for pound from the Latin "libra", just like
the monetary £.
Back in the 40s and 50s we had to learn all these off by heart for our
11+ exam to get into "grammar school".  I could never make a great deal
of sense of them then, though I find them interesting now from a
historical perspective.
The Dutch and Germans have kept their words for "pound", but nowadays a
pound = 500g, instead of 454g.  People didn't have to make such a big
change in their thinking.
-- 
John G Davies

 I must use it some time.
Er... Can you please explain it better? I mean, I was thinking about
the fact that he was using "I´ve" instead of "I have", that should be
used only in spoken language, but I have no idea why "sometimes" is
wrong.
Again, I can think of some reasons why "to have to" cannot be used in
that case (maybe because being "to must" a defective verb, you can use
"to have to" only in the missing tenses), but... But why is
"sometimes" wrong?!
And, of course, forgive me for my English. I never studied it, it just
happens that I read/write technical documentation and that I spent one
year in the States (which is... I would say... "Not the best way to
learn ´correct´ English ;) ;) ;)
Thanks for your answer and for your time
ZioBit

learn ´correct´ English
Don't worry.  There ain't no such thing.  The purpose of language is to
communicate, if you can do that effectively, you are well on the road.
Using idioms correctly often helps, they are often convenient shortcuts
to complex ideas.  If you get enjoyment (or even money) out of the
communication, so much the better.  That's why I'm learning Italian.
Yours communicatively
-- 
John G Davies

 "There's naught as queer as folk, Daisy, except thee and me, and > thou's
a bit queer sometimes.
That's marvelous :)
Sebastiano

 the monetary £.
I have remembered something. Often in Italy you can find prices in
Lire with the £. :).
I worked in a computer shop and one day an English couple came in
to buy a lcd monitor. They saw the cheap one and they started
laughing. It was 999.000 £. Of course it was in lire, but the man said
"Hey [name], look, it's of course the best one, it's slighly less the a
million pounds" ;).
I bless Euro :).
Sebastiano

 Sebastiano
More likely to have said   -five feet and three and one eighth of an
inch-  5' 3น/8" 
or "he was short." ;-))


 or "he was short." ;-))
I agree metrically. :)
Sebastiano

 You may often hear "one yard, two FOOT, three and an eight inches.
L'acca č cosě muta che sparisce?

 When did Italy become fully metric?
I didn't know it, luckily Lupo has already answered.
Anyway, how are things doing with the metric system, over there?
I can see a shift in textbooks that is probably causing (minor, of course)
problems to students of science over there. The same is taking place in the
US, I see.
But, is there a chance that one day we could buy one kg of flour, half a
liter of water, mix them and bake the dough in an oven at 200 °C, even in
London [1]?
Or the Brits are using the metric system just like the Italian are using the
safety belt on their cars (only when there is someone who could fine them)?
saluti,
Peltio
[1] I confess I don't know if that's already the case. It's more than two
years I'm not putting my nose out fo Italy : (((


You could cut a stick or a length of rope of that size and measure just 
about anything with that.


 I have never run into a non metric measure.
Per misurare l'estensione degli appezzamenti di terreno, sono abbastanza
usati i "moggi" (almeno da queste parti [Napoli]...)
ciao
Gennaro
--
Per rispondere eliminare ".HELL" dall'indirizzo.
To reply remove ".HELL" from the end of the address.
------

 Sebastiano
bye


 Peltio
ciao


 Sebastiano
bye


 of the halhundredweight of Alfred the Great (!!!!) :-)
Yeah! That sound pratical ^_^.
Sebastiano
--
Ash nazg durbatuluuk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatuluuk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Min Côr a thorthad hain phain, Min Côr a chiriad hain,
Min Côr a theged hain a nedhi vorn gweded hain

 of the fingers. Something heavy to be carried away by feet? Wood, maybe?
Length, I'd imagine :-)) Haven't you ever tried to measure something
without a ruler or tape measure - if planting tomatoes or figuring
out if A will fit into B. String would readily be multiplied by arm
lengths and then transported to wherever the measurement was needed.
Tailors probably use it still as a means of having a piece of cotton
not too long to tangle, but long enough to not need joining too soon.
I like frypans of a size of the width of my fingers spread out (a
method devised because I don't always carry a tape measure when
shopping around.) ;-))). 



Both are correct. Almost everything is now sold in metric, the
only obvious exception being beer in pubs. If you buy a can of
beer from the supermarket though, it will usually be 500ml.
Flour is sold in kilos, and electric ovens will have a scale in
celsius (but there is also a "gas mark" for gas ovens).
However, I think most people still prefer to use imperial
measurements when following recipes, and certainly for measuring
their height and weight, as already mentioned.
J

ton (2240 ounces)
I've never heard drams, grains, quarters or centrals used with
regard to weight, except that a quarter of sweets would mean a
quarter of a pound.
By the way, the thread elsewhere seemed to imply that a tenth
of an inch is not used. It is. A typical ruler will divide the
inches up into tenths on one half and sixteenths on the other.
J

 wrote in message
news:a2n5c2$lae$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

I've tried so hard to adapt to metric but old habits die hard.
I can't make Yorkshire puddings with ? grams of flour, it has to be 4 oz
plain flour with 1/4 pint of milk, 1/4 pint of water and two eggs. Then I
know that I will get exactly 12 Yorkshire puddings ( one whole tray full)
rather than 11 if I use metric measurements. I don't think that the hens
know that they are supposed to lay metric eggs.
Do you remember the market trader who was fined for continuing to sell his
bananas by the pound instead of by the kilo? Well, slowly and quietly,
market traders here in Grimsby are going back to writing 25p per lb on their
price boards while the xxx per kg is now a much smaller scrawl in a corner.
Evi


You seem to imply that they have some awareness of laying imperial eggs.



No, they just have imperial bottoms :)
Evi