Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Menial jobs (Domanda ai madrelingua )

Dear All,
Is the above expression used only by educated people .
A very dear Australian friend of mine read it before my very eyes and
thought it had been me mispelling it .
She thought  I meant  "manual jobs " .
She is not that cultivated but is it normal for a native speaker not having
heard it ?
Yours
Sal

Sal
No, it's not normal.  It's not that ucommon in the States, but maybe it is in
Australia.
bye
ari

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Most would have heard it, although it may not be in the reading vocabulary
of those who are content to limit their reading to cereal boxes and
instructions for assembling barbeque grills. Perhaps she has heard 'menial'
in the past and thought the speaker meant 'manual' because of the similarity
in their meanings? I know someone who, (until I gently enlightened him),
thought that a 'peon' was the metaphorical recipient of an unwanted shower
by body function.

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:20040511122055...@mb-m14.aol.com...
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< I do not think so .
   She is a native speaker , is 42 and has lived in Trento for more than 20
years .
She has probably not read a book or watched television in English for 20
years .
What hurts is that I passed for the ignorant one.
We were teaching a class and she mentioned " starting from scratch ".
In order to better explain what she meant I wrote on the blackboard :Start
from the beginning ,from menial jobs .
When the students asked what a menial job was I told them to ask her .
She said it meant done by hand and that I had mispelt it .
It should have been manual .
As they say in Naples "curnuto e mazziato ".
I didn't have the heart to contradict in front of the whole class .
Yours
Sal

 from the beginning ,from menial jobs .
Perhaps your embarassment wasn't unfounded since your definition is somewhat
off the mark. You often hear the expression "to make 'something' (a cake,
for instance) from scratch". And no, scratch isn't a packaged ingredient you
find next to the flour in a supermarket. The meaning of 'to start from
scratch' is to begin at the beginning or with basic materials or ideas. A
mathematician, for example, could be working on a proof that doesn't lead to
the answer he wants. He may then discard all of his work and start from
scratch with a new approach. The only menial task involved would be to erase
the blackboard.

 the blackboard.
< And you cannot use it for careers starting from very basic materials like
menial jobs ?
And if you can't she was off the mark, not me , because that's what she was
talking about .
My only fault wax believing her .
Very truly yours
Sal

 I didn't have the heart to contradict in front of the whole class .
I couldn't have resisted, no doubt.
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'.

Sal
Oh my goodness...what a story!  I would have told her she was wrong in front of
the class.  Why shouldn't you have the nerve to do it if she does?
I can't believe she's never heard the word menial.  It's not that rare.
bye
ari


Yes, same here!
Ari

 menial jobs ?
You can use it for that but it is not part of the definition of  'to start
from scratch'. I offered the 'to make from scratch' variation to give you an
idea of what was at the core of the meaning. The word 'menial' has less of a
meaning of 'basic' and more of a meaning of 'servile'.

 Sal
 
AmEng Ketzl here.
Not normal at all. Although the expression "menial tasks" is a common 
one, "menial jobs" isn't; however anyone with English as a native 
language should immediately infer what is meant.
It doesn't even seem likely that her confusion could have come from the 
fact that "menial tasks/jobs" doesn't imply "starting from scratch," 
which, as Tony pointed out, implies beginning a task (again) from the 
beginning. It seems as though her confusion comes from not recognizing 
the word "menial" and mistaking it for "manual."
-- 
I am Joey's Cat
Un-not my address, too, if you wanna reply.

 the word "menial" and mistaking it for "manual."
I agree. If I say "ricetta", one cannot say I misspelled "ricotta" (I'm
always talking about food...).
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
Lucangel

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That would be the accent confusing her. 'Manual' with an Aussie
accent would sound 'menial'. As for calling a job menial, I don't
think anyone would like to hear their work called menial. Reminiscent
of slaves and servants. Perhaps she had never heard it before because
it wouldn't be used that often in speech.
-- 
              O      __
      ___   /\     / / O  
     /__ \   | \   /  |
    O  /  \ /   \./   |       Loki
        |________ |
 

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I'd say it that context it was the accent too. Does she have a strong
Aussie accent of the 'Kath and Kim' (TV) sort? As for 'madrelingue' -
it doesn't guarantee perfection or omnipotence, as I prove almost
daily. :-)
Start from scratch = start from nothing
Menial has the connotations of servants' work and in 'class free'
Australia, used to be anathema. I guess now it would mean low status
work. I'd use it for cleaning my home for example, but I'd hesitate
to label anyone else's work menial - they might hit me. A task may be
described as menial.
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Only in that menial work often entails manual work, but in todays
computerised world it can also just mean low status jobs.
Have more faith in yourself. :-) I know it grates when one has to
bite the bullet on one's superior knowledge for the peace of all, so
my sympathies. 
:-)
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I would never describe someone's work as "menial", unless I wanted to
offend them. There is an element of class distinction attached to the
word. "Menial" jobs are jobs which would never be performed by the
"right" people. I would say that in many situations it would be
anathema in the US.
Joe from Massachusetts

 >
Of course, every one knows that's a paean, not a peon.
Joe from Massachusetts

 Of course, every one knows that's a paean, not a peon.
Did that image raise a song of joy from the peonut gallery?

 the class.  Why shouldn't you have the nerve to do it if she does?
Because our Sal is a gentleman of the old school, of course! :)
-- 
Ciao,
Anna


< It was not "not having the nerve " actually .
   It would have been to confusing for the students to tell her right there
.
Yours
Sal

"Loki" <lo...@aotearoa.invalid> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:96285612578823...@news.clear.net.nz...
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< She never reads books then.
Talking of accents :
Do Aussies pronounce Blown, Drawn Grown and their likes as if they were
pronouncing when ?
She does !
   Anyway although I have been slandering her name all over the place for
the past months I do like her .
   The problem is she is not a teacher .
   Too many private schools here in Italy hire people just because they are
native speakers .
   I have another language assistant .
   She is from London and  has the "most marvellous" accent woman has ever
uttered but when I asked her to practise the duration form  with my students
   she asked me what the hell the duration form was .
Yours
Sal

    It would have been to confusing for the students to tell her right there
Why confusing? Your reputation was at stake. I don't wish to be contentious
-- all the more so as I haven't your teaching experience -- but I think it
still more confusing for a student to realise that his teacher, you,
actually misspells words. She wouldn't have lost her face anyway, because
she is a native speaker and maybe she was just inattentive or superficial.
Moreover, your students, I presume, are still thinking that "menial jobs"
is a mistake.
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 students she asked me what the hell the duration form was .
What the hell is the duration form? Is that the present perfect continuous?
By the way, I understand why you didn't say anything during the class.
However, you should have said something afterwards. If I ever made a similar
'menial' mistake, I would suggest that we alert the students the next day
through a little exercise involving menial, manual, and scratch. I think
that it's great for students to see that teachers make errors. It emboldens
them to not be afraid to make their own mistakes and learn from them.

 It emboldens them to not be afraid to make their own mistakes and learn from them.
What's the difference between that and "It emboldens them not to be
afraid..."?
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 afraid..."?
Only the cadence (since "split infinitives" are a thing of the past, 
thank Heaven.) Still, I prefer your version; it flows better.
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 What the hell is the duration form? Is that the present perfect
continuous?
< Not only .
   I have been here for a minute  Italian Sono qui da un minuto
   I have known her since 1990 Italian La conosco dal 1990
   I have had this watch for 4 years   Italian Ho questo orologio da 4 anni
   AND
   I could go on and on and on .
Simply the goddamnest (sorry about the wrong grammar ) difficult thing in
the English language .
I usually teach it during the third year and nobody understands zilch .
I always repeat it during the fourth year before gaping non understanding
faces .
I finally give up in the fourth year  and go out for lunch with the only
student who "has been listening to me for 3 years " and has (by miracle )
understood it.
Yours
Sal

 afraid..."?
Not much. When speaking you can emphasize the "not be afraid" without the
"to" weakening the effect. In writing, your version is preferable in most
cases.

    she asked me what the hell the duration form was .
Duration?? I think also some of the grammar terms used today were not
common (or truly synonymous) and were not used to teach us grammar. 
I am guessing (without looking it up) you mean the 'ando' type words.
When I did English in my last year at school, grammar was the last
thing taught and I missed it. The only other grammar I remember being
taught was at primary school.  Which shows you the importance the
various education systems (Australia and New Zealand) put on it. I've
learnt more by studying italian and reading the grammar books in a
feeble attempt to keep up with this newsgroup!
Not only that, but the rules have changed too. e.g. the its' rule. In
our defence I would just say English has soooooooooooooo many
exceptions that we probably just learn to speak without analysis.
:-))
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 thank Heaven.) Still, I prefer your version; it flows better.
I disagree. The "It emboldens them not to be afraid..." is actually
saying: It doesn't embolden them. (to be afraid). which naturally
makes no sense. The 'not' really needs to be closer to the 'afraid'
because it's altering it. : to be 'not afraid' i.e. to be 'brave'. 
Think of the word order in: "It worries them not." 
The whole sentence could be clearer (which is why we have grammar
rules I guess) with:  "It emboldens them to be unafraid of making
their own mistakes and [one hopes] learning from them.
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 is a mistake.
It's better to choose the time to argue. I agree with Sal. An
argument
would be unseemly and far better to show the lady the word in a
dictionary later. See how she pronounces it.... :-)
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 their own mistakes and [one hopes] learning from them.
As always, a rewrite is usually the best way to avoid confusion; but 
don't think that was the point of the OP.
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 don't think that was the point of the OP.
A rewrite is always a good idea.  Why choose between two awkward
sentences when a third is clearer. ;-) Language is, after all, about
communication. (Excepting politicians - and all they want to
communicate is camouflage)
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Oh so now "camouflage" is a euphemism for "BS"? ;)
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 Oh so now "camouflage" is a euphemism for "BS"? ;)
It behooves a cat not to make light of a mode of utterance which may
seem unpalatable to its felinity.
In other words, you're full of cat poop.  :>)
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Ya mutha weahs ahmy boots...
Hey, Joe, you sure you're not from Brooklyn?
http://www.nosebleed.com/brooklynbizzarro/humanodd/rhgeek.html
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 Oh so now "camouflage" is a euphemism for "BS"? ;)
Oh no. If I meant bullshit I would have written bullshit. BS is the
euphemism... :-))). I was being a 'lady'. I dunno why I bother;-)  It
takes faaaaar too much effort. camouflage is more descriptive of what
they're doing to the language. Bullshit is the content. OSIR...
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