Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: A little rude/poco rozo

I need some help. (as usual)
I know how to very rude (mi penso) but I don't know how to be "friendly-
rude". When chatting to my Italian friends I can say "Ciao Pelato" or 
"Salve untuoso" etc. 
What I need is some colloquialisms or espressione familaire that good 
friends can use to address each other.
In English one can use very bad expresions between friends. I don't know 
if this is the same in Italiano. If so what sort of things can be used?
Suggestions appreciated
Grazie.
-- 
(I will no longer insult you with my Italian translator program)
Chris Notton
Replace "nospam" with my surname to reply by email
Sostituisca il "nospam" con il mio cognome per rispondere
}<////(*>

 if this is the same in Italiano. If so what sort of things can be used?
Hi Chris! First of all, let me ask you, are you a man or a woman? If, you're
a man, that's ok, you can call your male friends names in a friendly way and
it will sound natural. It's not so common to be friendly rude to women, but
you could.
It's not the same if you are a woman, especially with respect to girlfriends
but also it's not very common for a woman to be friendly rude to a man. If
you're a woman, you're not supposed (or allowed) to be friendly rude to
anyone. Sex discrimination works in the language, too! :-((((((((((
Expressions you may use in Italian vary from area to area but I don't think
there are many standards. It really depends on the person you are
addressing.
Ciao ciao!
Cinzia
--
Per rispondermi personalmente, togliere "-sendmenocrap" dal mio indirizzo
e-mail.
To reply, please remove "-sendmenocrap" from my e-mail address.

if this is the same in Italiano. If so what sort of things can be used?
I'm afraid that we need more information to help you. It depends on the
strenght of the friendship and on the sense of humor of your friends. You
could say "fetentone" and "bastardo" and survive to tell your nephews but
you could find yourself in trouble for a mild "stupido".
Actually "bastardo" has become a sort of compliment in Italy after the way
it was used by the "Mai dire gol" TV show. On another NG I proud myself of
being a B.I.N.T. - a Bastard Inside and Nearby Too (but it's a long
story...) and I'm on my way to print a sticker form my PC that says "Pentium
Inside, Bastard Outside".
But again, you should use the uttermost care in handling such terms.
Now that I think of it, it seems to me that using the ... majorative(?)
could result in a milder form of insulting.
"Cretinone" is less harmful than "cretino", I guess.
And so is "Bastardone" with respect to "bastardo".
But don't be deceived by the ending 'one', using word like "coglione" or
"minchione" could result in a sudden split.
You have been warned.
saluti,
Peltio

, pel...@twilight.zone 
says...

Ciao Peltio, Ciao Cinzia,
Sorry should have said. Chris short for Christopher (male) mostly talking 
to male friends. Are women in Italy really supposed not to talk rude?? 
You are kidding me right? You should hear some of the women stand-up 
comediennes in the U.K.
Have I got these translations correct?
Fetentone = stinking one?
Minchione = simpleton (very mild in English!, almost affectionate.)
Coglione = (now this is a problem), testicle?? Blockhead?? Both??
You have a wonderful language but oh! those verbs make my head hurt :-(!
Pip pip
-- 


if this is the same in Italiano. If so what sort of things can be used?
Yes, the same is true also in Italian. As I am sure it happens
also in England, you have to make sure that the other persons 
know they are being insulted in a friendly way. That said, the
only limit is your fantasy. You can use just about any kind
of outrage, you can call your friends things like
stronzo fottuto, pezzo di merda, maiale bastardo, rottinculo,
just to name a few (I am not sure how the fine readers of the group 
would like to read heavier things). Between friends it 
is common to use very heavy, sexually related insults.
+--
I know you can't speak, I know you can't sign
So cry right here on the dotted line

You have a wonderful language but oh! those verbs make my head hurt :-(!
It does not seems so nice with all the bad words I wrote! :)
Oh, yeah, I wasn't remembering, a big hello to all the people of this
wonderful newsgroup. I'm back :)
Sebastiano

 "Cretinone" is less harmful than "cretino", I guess.
Ciao, Peltio, vecchia troiaccia, come va?

 is common to use very heavy, sexually related insults.
Ehilà, culattone, di nuovo da queste parti?

 
Now this is fairly helpful...............but,
A lot of these words are not in my dictionary :-)!
"Ehilà, culattone"........ well the closest I can get is "breech of gun" 
or "seat of trousers"??
"cazzona" ...........nothing in my dictionary??
(Capisco cazzo vai, penso forse simile? Feminine)
"merdaccia" ..............something to do with dung???
Vivo ed imparo!
Grazie per la vostra pazienza.
 -- 


"merdaccia" ..............something to do with dung???
Merda means shit. Do you know the dispregiative construction in
Italian? Like "gatto" that means cat and "gattaccio" that means a bad
cat. It's not correct for all the words, for example I would not use
gattaccio in some official writings. You can use it talking with
friends. The first correct word I recall is "tipo" (guy) and
"tipaccio" (bad guy).
So merdaccia is "bad shit", but the use of the dispregiative in words
where is not right to do so (like cat, for example) changes the
meaning in something less strong, more funny, more childy.
So, tipaccio is a bad guy and stop, lupaccio is something you read in
a fable and merdaccia is something you tell to a friends to joke.
Merda is stronger then merdaccia.
Hope I have not counfused you more then I have confused myself ;)
Sebastiano
P.S.
If you want to know more "bad italian" or simply bad words I have no
problem in helping you but I thing that filling ICLing with such
monsters would be a problem. My e-mail is easy to discover, cut the
NOSPAM and go :)


As that old fart of Lucangel brilliantly pointed out, 
in a friendly context the addition of things like 
'vecchio/a' or 'caro/a' and the like may have a 
softening effect on the contumelies. 


 As that old fart of Lucangel brilliantly pointed out
Brillante a me? Oh, non dovevi. Sono confuso. 

 
Thanks for all the kind linguistic help. I originally lurked here, and a 
couple of other .it groups, to try an quietly improve my Italian. I 
cannot find an equivalent English language group.
I would be pleased to help with any technical English enquirys.
I will try and stay on topic in future, no promises, as you are all so 
helpful!
Ciao & Pip pip
-- 


 or "seat of trousers"??
I would advise not to get any closer - if you wish to keep the
seat of your trousers in good order, mind you.
:)
Matteo

 Matteo
Ci siamo rifatti il nick, vedo:-/
Ciao, piccolino.

 Coglione = (now this is a problem), testicle?? Blockhead?? Both??
"Coglione" is literally a testicle but referred to a person means "fool,
prick".


 wonderful newsgroup. I'm back :)
Welcome back!
Cinzia
P.S. Meglio dire "I almost forgot".


 "merdaccia" ..............something to do with dung???
Sebastiano explained it well. Nevertheless, I'd like to add that the use of
this word probably comes from the films titled "Fantozzi" (have you ever
seen one? You should!). Fantozzi is an office worker, an accountant who is
very unlucky, cowardly, servile, incapable of doing mostly anything. For
these reasons, people often call him "merdaccia". This can give you an idea
of its meaning.
Cinzia


 Ci siamo rifatti il nick, vedo:-/
"Noblesse O'Blige"!
Ciao

P.S. Meglio dire "I almost forgot".
Ci sono rimasto sopra almeno 60 secondi. Non ne venivo fuori. Mi
suonavano tutte male. Non č meglio dire "I almost forgot". Č mille
volte meglio. Grazie dell'appunto.
Sebastiano

You are kidding me right? 
Are you saying that women in England are supposed to 
talk rude? 


 P.S. Meglio dire "I almost forgot".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Interessante.  "I almost forgot" č molto usato (google conferma).  Mi 
sembra che in _questo_ caso sia possibile anche "I was forgetting".
Gli amici madrelingua che seguono il GdD possono indicarci, meglio di 
chiunque altro, che cosa suoni piů idiomatico, o piů preciso, al loro 
orecchio (e perché ;-)).
Many thanks in advance.

, 
yeah....@earthlink.net
 says...

Women in England & the USA (between themselves) talk AT LEAST as dirty as 
men.
Women comediennes can, and do use much more graphic and explicit language 
than men can. Sort of reverse sexism.
What I mean is, it is not surprising to hear men being filthy, so in 
order to shock you into laughing women can be even more explicit or use 
more swear words, physical slang etc. They will often deride sex, men, 
and men's bodies for laughs. Women comediennes more frequently refer to 
their bodies, sex and "women's problems" for humorous purposes. 
It is very funny sometimes.
If a man did it it would sound rather suspicious. 
I may not be making myself clear. What I mean is: men & women can both 
make fun of their bodies for laughs but women can get away with jokes at 
both men & women!
So In Italy I can only share dirty jokes with men? 
Non mancatemi di parola!
(I hope that is correct!)


 their bodies, sex and "women's problems" for humorous purposes.
In Italy there's also a comedienne (Luciana Littizzetto) who became
quite popular through the sort of bawdy humour you're probably
referring to. She's often been a guest at TV shows lately and even
had a book published which sold a number of copies.
One of her favourite targets are the idiosincrasies of men in their
everyday life. Male sexual attitudes are frequently sneered at and
men are sometimes represented as just another bunch of clumsy,
scruffy berks. You could hardly describe her sense of humour as
subtle, but one may well burst into a hearty laugh at some of her
jokes.
Matteo

So In Italy I can only share dirty jokes with men? 
No, but while you may freely share a dirty joke with a male 
stranger at the pub and have a good laugh, doing the same 
with a stranger female would be unlikely (at least while
you are still sober), and generally more awkward for both.
Anyway, there are things that may sound different when
said to a man and when said to a woman. I can say to a
male friend 'come va, vecchio frocio?' and there would be 
no doubt I'm joking, even in the middle of a crowd;
if I'd say 'come va, vecchia troia?' to a female friend,
she might not be so amused, especially in the middle of
a crowd. It's just a matter of boundaries; on average,
with women the line is drawn nearer than with men, and then
you have to consider the context and environment.


 volte meglio. Grazie dell'appunto.
Di nulla. Lieta di esserti stata utile.
Cinzia


 (I hope that is correct!)
It depends on what you mean. I'm not sure you got the right phrase here.


 sembra che in _questo_ caso sia possibile anche "I was forgetting".
A me qui il past continuous non suona per niente bene ed è per quello che ho
corrretto Sebastiano. Inoltre le regole grammaticali inseriscono "remember"
e "forget" tra quei verbi che non hanno i tempi continui. Cmq attendo pure
io gli auterevoli pareri dei madrelingua.
Cinzia


 jokes.
Her humour may not be subtle in the strict sense of the word but it's very
incisive and biting nevertheless. I think she's great, one of the finest and
funniest comediennes we have in Italy, a lot better than most of her male
counterparts.


 (I hope that is correct!)
I'm afraid it's not.
"mancare di parola" means "fail to keep a promise (or one's word)".
Max

Di nulla. Lieta di esserti stata utile.
Utilissima :)
Sebastiano

 attendo pure io gli auterevoli pareri dei madrelingua.
Cinzia, hai davvero poca fiducia[*] in me. :-)
Un esempio tratto dal mio O.A.L.D.: "I was forgetting (that) 
David used to teach you".
Gli esempi dell'O.A.L.D., di solito, sono scelti con cura; e questo esempio 
mostra che 'forget' può essere impiegato al Past Continuous.  Il caso di 
"remember", apparentemente speculare, è un po' diverso: esso non è usato 
con i tempi progressivi (anche questo dice il mio Oxford Advanced Learner's 
Dictionary).
In ogni caso, una ricerca nel corpus più eterogeneo del mondo (sì, la 
Grande Rete ;-)), con la restrizione  'site:uk', conferma che la forma "was 
forgetting" è relativamente frequente, ed anche quella "was remembering".  
Credo che nel primo caso ('was forgetting') tale uso sia del tutto lecito; 
ho però delle riserve sul secondo ('was remembering').
*************************** DIGRESSIONE ***************************
Il corretto uso dei tempi 'progressivi' presenta parecchie difficoltà.  Non 
ci sono 'compartimenti stagni' (questo verbo sì, quello no; questo 
significato sì, quello no).  Per darti una (pallida) idea della gamma di 
usi e di sfumature possibili, citerò qualche esempio dalla 'vecchia'[**] 
grammatica di Randolph Quirk:
<cit.>
1) The neighbours are friendly.  (Normal, nonprogressive)
1a) The neighbours are being friendly. (Special effect of progressive: [it] 
suggests that 'friendliness' is a form of behaviour (perhaps insincere).) 
2) I hope you will come. 
2a) I am hoping you will come.  (Special effect of progressive: [it] makes 
the speaker's attitude more tentative and perhaps more polite (4.37).) 
3) Tina resembles her sister.
3a) Tina is resembling her sister more and more.  (Special effect of 
progressive: with the comparative construction, the progressive turns the 
stative meaning into a process meaning (4.34).)   
[...]
The constraints of the progressive cannot, it seems, be explained entirely 
in terms of meaning.  Since the use of the progressive aspect has been 
undergoing grammatical extension over the past few hundred years, it is 
likely that its use is still changing at the present day, and that its 
description at any one time cannot be totally systematic.  This would 
explain the difficulties faced by those attempting to account in every 
respect for the conditions for the use of the progressive in terms of 
semantic generalizations.
</cit.>
Nel seguito riporto altri esempi dai paragrafi successivi (4.29 et seq.); 
l'asterisco indica le forme agrammaticali:
I understand that the offer has been accepted.
I *am understanding that the offer has been accepted.
She likes to entertain the students.
She *is liking to entertain the students.
A proposito dei verbi che esprimono 'states of emotion or attitude (eg: 
intend, wish, want, like, dislike, disagree, pity)' gli autori osservano 
che
<cit.>
Such verbs do, however, occur with the progressive when temporariness or 
tentativeness is being emphasized (cf. 4.37), especially when the 
progressive is combined with the attitudinal past (cf. 4.16):
What were you wanting?
I was hoping you would give me some advice.
The same applies to some verbs of Type (a) above (eg think). [Gli autori si 
riferiscono qui ai verbi che esprimono 'intellectual states': eg know, 
believe, think, wonder, suppose, imagine, realize, understand].
</cit.>
Un altro tipico esempio di 'attitudinal past' combinato con l'aspetto 
progressivo è "I was wondering if you could help me".
 
Esempi di 'think' utilizzato -- in certi significati -- con i tempi 
progressivi (dal mio O.A.L.D.):
You are very quiet -- what are you thinking (about)?
I was just thinking (to myself) what a long way it is.
They're thinking of moving to America.
Infine, un uso _eccezionale_ dei "tempi progressivi" (esempi tratti da 
Quirk et al., op. cit.):
I need some spectacles. I'm not _seeing_ things so well these days.
A: Did you hear a bell ring just then?
B: No. I can't hear a thing.
A: There it goes again! B: I _am_ _hearing_ it now.
                           I can hear it now.  
**********************************************************************
Per il momento mi fermo qui; non vorrei che tu scappassi via. :-)
 
Come puoi vedere da queste poche righe, l'argomento è lungi dall'essere 
banale.  Ecco perché ho rivolto la domanda su 'I was forgetting' vs. 'I 
almost forgot' proprio ai nostri amici di madrelingua inglese. ;-)
[*] Virtuale, s'intende.  E dire che mi sono sempre comportato da 
gentiluomo. ;-))
[**] A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, by Quirk, Greenbaum, 
Leech, and Svartvik, Longman _1985_, chap. 4, sec. 28 et seq.

 
frocio is not in my dictionary 
but troia I understand


, 
ed...@maxim.comm2000.it
 
says...

Oh dear, Please excuse me. In my Cassell Italian/English dictionary it 
says (it means), "don't disappoint me"
I have so much to learn!
(Ho cosě tanto imparare!)
I hope that is better.


 
Great! more phrases, just what I need. My friends are amazed when I know 
these things, especially when I pronounce them all wrong. They say it is 
like hearing Laurel & Hardy using bad language!!
Molto Grazie.


frocio is not in my dictionary
Queer...
saluti,
Peltio

 David used to teach you".
L'esempio che riporti si riferisce and una vera e propria azione
"progressive", un po' come dire "mi stava passando di mente". Come hai
giustamente riportato tu, ci sono molte eccezioni nell'uso del simple vs.
progressive aspect, si sa che il parlato tende ad essere molto più elastico
delle grammatiche. Forse per questo motivo nel caso in questione "I was
forgetting" è ammissibile, ma buttato là così da solo, senza una frase
dipendente, come c'è invece nell'esempio da te riportato, continua a
suonarmi male.
Madrelingua, perché non vi pronunciate? Ci stiamo rodendo dal dubbio! :-)


 "progressive", un po' come dire "mi stava passando di mente". 
Pensavo proprio ad una frase del tipo 
"Oh, yeah, I was forgetting, a big hello to all the people of this 
wonderful newsgroup".
L'_inciso_ "I was forgetting" è cioè seguito da un sintagma nominale ("noun 
phrase") che svolge una funzione per certi versi simile a quella di una 
proposizione oggettiva ('that-clause').  Su google si trovano anche esempi 
di uso 'assoluto'.  Riporto qualche esempio dei vari usi:
<example>
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/hate/Mathis260401.html
She must have a proper chance to answer them herself, and preferably on 
oath. Oh dear, the Kol Nidre. I was forgetting.
</example>
<example>
http://search.ngfl.gov.uk/majordomo-html/senco-forum/senco-forum.archive.0011/msg00313.html
Ah - I was forgetting - education isn't about raising children and young 
people, it's about raising standards.)
</example>
<example>
http://www.medico-legalsociety.org.uk/journal_cases/brahams_99v67_civil.cfm
Unless and until solicitors' attendance notes become disclosable along with 
everything else, could it be there will be more exploratory telephone chats 
with experts before letters of instruction are sent out and reports are 
written? No, I fear I am being too cynical? And I was forgetting - under 
the new rules, the duty of the expert is to the court and not the client 
who pays him.
</example>
<example (un po' ehm serioso ;-)>
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199900/cmhansrd/vo000512/debtext/00512-10.htm
Maria Eagle:  I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I was forgetting his 
ten-minute Bill on this subject. 
</example>
<example (con velleità letterarie :-))>
http://www.psmithies.freeserve.co.uk/html/it_has.htm
Vic: Yes I was forgetting , Lord, Still you must get depressed at times I 
mean ,if I ,as a simple minister of the Word, get narked off, you must want 
to strike us all down, or send another flood or do something dramatic.
</example>
<example (serioso)>
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/reporter/1998-9/weekly/5756/19.html
And if you received such a request, would you not feel that, in the 
interests of justice and fairness, such a candidate should be referred to 
the same committee for consideration by the same procedures for which he 
has already been deemed ineligible? But I was forgetting: the principles of 
justice and fairness do not apply in such a case.
</example>
Mi piacerebbe a questo punto sentire la voce dei nostri amici madrelingua 
(c'è nessuno laggiù?).  In quali casi pensate sia preferibile usare "I was 
forgetting"[*] e in quali casi invece 'I almost forgot'?  E' forse una 
questione di lana caprina? :-)
Many, many thanks in advance.
[*] Sia come inciso sia seguito da una 'noun phrase'.

(Ho cosě tanto imparare!)
Ho cosě tanto da imparare!
You said something more or less like "I have so much learn!"
Sebastiano

 wrote in message
g4ofmukgqb4c2rnuv...@4ax.com...

Well, it also depends on the girl and on the persons she's talking to
(friends, strangers, young people, adults, etc.). I would not have hesitated
to tell my friends that we were "nella merda a mezza gamba"! :-)))) But with
people I didn't know well I would have behaved exactly like your friend.


 Molto Grazie.
By the way, Chris, "rozzo" (this is the right spelling) means "rude" in the
sense of "unrefined, rough, coarse". "Rude" in the sense of "unmannerly,
impolite" is "sgarbato" or "maleducato". But I wouldn't use either of these
words in the context we are referring to. I'd rather say "insultare
amichevolmente" as an Italian counterpart for "to be friendly-rude".
Ciao!


amichevolmente" as an Italian counterpart for "to be friendly-rude".
Thank you. This is just the sort of help I need, you can't get it from 
lessons. I will just have to work out how to pronounce it and I am 
all set.
(Assassinio della lingua italiana)


people I didn't know well I would have behaved exactly like your friend.
She is shy, we are good friends, but we do not use to talk about
everything. I have another girlfriend and we are so close we can talk
about our sexual experiences. And we use all the words we need ;)
Btw, "nella merda a mezza gamba" is a masterpiece! LOL.
Sebastiano

 This is my guess anyway!
You guessed it right!!


 Btw, "nella merda a mezza gamba" is a masterpiece! LOL.
Ti ringrazio per l'apprezzamento ma non è farina del mio sacco. Essere a
mezza gamba o avere qualcosa a mezza gamba è un tipico modo di dire
romagnolo per indicare l'abbondanza di qualcosa.


romagnolo per indicare l'abbondanza di qualcosa.
Non essendo io romagnolo non lo conoscevo proprio. Buono a sapersi :)
Sebastiano