Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Helm, hard about

We - I and my friend - have heard it when we were watching Star Trek TNG
this afternoon. We've supposed that it could mean "Virata stretta" or
something like that. We thought so because of this dictionary
explanation "To a reversed position or direction".
Could it be possible?
-- 
Yatta!,
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 We - I and my friend -
"A friend of mine and I" mi sembra più idiomatico, ma sentiamo che 
dicono i madrelingua.
-- 
Don't f*ck with me bitch, I'm the mightiest sorcerer of the lands.

 dicono i madrelingua.
"My friend and I" is just fine.
Kiuhnm

):

Either of these last two is fine: "I" should come last, or so we're taught in 
grammar school.
As for 'hard about' I believe it means "sharp turn."
-- 
Joe/Joey da New York

 -- 
The expression is an English nautical command, so I don't know what the
Italian nautical command would be. "Virata stretta" is a good description of
the process.
«In the meantime the "Emden" had passed beyond the "Schemtschuk," had turned
hard about to port, and was passing by her opponent for the second time.»
http://www.archive.org/stream/emdencruiser00mkuoft/emdencruiser00mkuoft_djvu.txt
The helmsman mans the helm and steers the ship.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/helmsman?view=uk
about = in the opposite direction
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/about[1]
«hard = to the full extent possible; all the way;
"hard alee"; "the ship went hard astern"; "swung the wheel hard left" »
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+hard&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
"Helm hard about!" is the same as saying "Helmsman, turn the ship (all the
way) around!".
Joe from Massachusetts

 dicono i madrelingua.
I've googled a bit about that and:
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/meandi?view=uk
http://www.englishforums.com/English/FriendFriend/ccglk/post.htm
-- 
Yatta!,
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 grammar school.
But, this is it a grammar rule or a way to be polite?


 way) around!".
A good adaptation, I think, can be "Timoniere, inversione di rotta".


 Yes, it can be translated with "Timoniere".


 A good adaptation, I think, can be "Timoniere, inversione di rotta".
Is this an actual nautical term in Italian, or just an explanation of the
English phrase?
Joe from Massachusetts

 
Not so much a rule of grammar as it is a rule of etiquette. A lot of people 
use "I" first, but then, a lot of people make a lot of mistakes that I try to 
avoid.
Putting "I" last is something usually learned in the early grades. The rule 
"You must say 'Theresa and I' not "I and Teresa" leads a lot of people to use 
"I" all the time when the correct pronoun would be the object form 'me.'
You'll hear people say, for example:
"My friend invited Teresa and I to dinner." Wrong. "Teresa and me."
"Between you and I, ..." Wrong again. "Between you and me, ... " etc.


 English phrase?
"Timoniere" is a nautical term, I never heard it out of that context.
He's the man that "drive" the vessel using the helm (In Italian
"Timone"). Beside, In Italian you can't say "Timone" as abbreviation of
"Timoniere".
"Rotta" has often used to indicate "to take a direction" out of nautical
context, even in a figure of speech for a direction of thought. But I
think it's often used as nautical term too.
Maybe "Virare di bordo"(*) is a better translation, more accurate,
that's  because I talked of "adaptation".
(*)
http://www.demauroparavia.it/127858
-- 
Yatta!,
Ronon Dex: You kill him before I do, I kill you.
Sheppard : What if he kills you first?
Ronon Dex: Then you kill him.

 Not so much a rule of grammar as it is a rule of etiquette.
<snip>
You has been very exhaustive in your explanations, thanks.
-- 
Yatta!,
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deliver content without incident.
(Peter Losher)

 You has been
"have"


 "have"
Argh! :(
Underlined with the red pencil, that's an ugly error.
-- 
Yatta!,
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John Crichton

 Underlined with the red pencil, that's an ugly error.
That's an ugly error even if you don't underline it.
Kiuhnm

 That's an ugly error even if you don't underline it.
I know. What I don't know is, why are you underlining this? Am I missing
something?
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Yatta!,
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 something?
If you know it, why do you say "when/if underlined with the red pen"?
Bottom line: don't misuse commas!
Kiuhnm

 If you know it, why do you say "when/if underlined with the red pen"?
I never wrote "when" or "if". "Underlined with the red pencil, that's an
ugly error." is referring to me. It's a teacher like reprimand, I was
joking.


 joking.
Never mind. You didn't understand what I mean.
Kiuhnm

 Never mind. 
As you wish.



We always say "you and I", "a friend and I", never "I and you" or "I and a
friend", but I think you can say either "Io e tu" or "tu e io" in Italian
and maybe even ''io e un amico" or "un amico e io"?
Very informally, we do say "me and you are going", "him and me are going",
"her and me are going", etc.
«10 politeness
It is considered polite to use names or noun phrases, rather than he, she or
they, to refer to people who are present.
Dad said I could go out. - No, I didn't. (More polite than He said I could
go
out.)
This lady needs an ambulance.
However, pronouns need to be used to avoid repetition (see 500).
Dad said he didn't mind ... (NOT Dad said Dad didn't mind ... )
It is considered polite to mention oneself last in double subjects or
objects.
Why don't you and I go away for the weekend? (NOT Why don't I and
you... ?)
The invitation was for Tracy and me. (More polite than ... for me and
Tracy.)»
(Swan, "Practical English", 429)
Although Swan never states that it is wrong to mention oneself first in
double subjects or objects, he gives no examples showing any such use in
formal conversation, but he does give examples of it in very informal
language, such as "me and the kids went...".
Joe from Massachusetts


Even the phrase "Helm, hard about" is incomplete, because you can either
turn left (to port) or right (to starboard) to start turning a ship around,
and the captain would want to avoid running into anything, so he would
choose the safest direction. A more probable command would be "Helm, hard
about to (port)(starboard)". But in space, I guess you don't have to worry
about running into anything, so "Helm, hard about" would suffice - unless
you were surrounded by cloaked Klingon vessels.  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 and maybe even ''io e un amico" or "un amico e io"?
"Io e tu" doesn't sound very idiomatic to me.
I'd say "Noi due" ("The two of us" in English).
Kiuhnm

 and maybe even ''io e un amico" or "un amico e io"?
"Io e tu" sounds strange but isn't wrong as far as I know. "Tu e io",
"Io e un amico" and "Un amico e io" are often used.
(This use of "to use" is transitive, isn't it?)
-- 
Yatta!,
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 you were surrounded by cloaked Klingon vessels.  :>)
Another explanation could be that Ma'am Crusher isn't very skilled as
"space's wolf"(*).
(*)
Lupo di mare :: Lupo di spazio. :)



"To use" is always transitive, but "used" in "to be used to" is
intransitive, and has a different meaning.
"They are used for broadband service" and "They are used to broadband
service" illustrate the difference.
Joe from Massachusetts

 "Io e un amico" and "Un amico e io" are often used.
-- 
Yatta!,
Never start a fight, but always finish it.

 service" illustrate the difference.
I didn't get the difference. To me sound like: "The routers are used
to..." and "The funds are used to...". But the second sentence hasn't
much meaning.


 correct sentence is "It is often used to indicate".
God damn me! IS!!!!



Nel secondo caso "be used to" (+ foma in -ing se c'è un verbo), significa 
'essere abituati'. 

 'essere abituati'. 
I got it, thanks.
-- 
Yatta!,
War has changed
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