Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Letters of Tolkien

"I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their
habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due
to their own private tongue....." (Letter 176)
Well, that is English. Do I remember right that in American jew is an
offence
and the right term is jewish?
My "black dictionary" (forbidden american, essential dictionary of taboo
american english) has only jew-boy and not jew alone but I remember a song
in Southpark about the Dreidel with Cartman saying "jew" to Kyle.
I was astonished becouse of that letter of J.R.R. Tolkien. I hope that "jew"
is
not an offence in English.
Sebastiano
--
Ash nazg durbatuluuk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatuluuk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Min Côr a thorthad hain phain, Min Côr a chiriad hain,
Min Côr a theged hain a nedhi vorn gweded hain

is not an offence in English.
Well, Tolkien was a controversial kind of person, anyways this is what
I found in the Merriam Webster dictionary for 'Jew':
Main Entry: Jew 
Pronunciation: 'jü
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French gyu, from Latin Judaeus,
from Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew YehudhI, from YehudhAh Judah, Jewish
kingdom
Date: 13th century
1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : ISRAELITE
2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the 6th century
B.C. to the 1st century A.D.
3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion
of the ancient Jewish people
4 : one whose religion is Judaism 
It doesn't seem to be an offence, but I guess usage and context can
vary things a lot
Fabio

 vary things a lot
Probably it is not a "bad world" but it can be an offence in some cases.
Anyway, thanks.


Anyway, thanks.
Of course, any word can be an offence, it just depends on context ;)
Ciao,
Fabio

I hope that "jew" is not an offence in English.
As Fabio said, a lot of  words can be used as insults according
to the context. One example is the word "nigger", which is generally
considered offensive when used by whites but is commonly used 
between blacks.
As for Jew/Jewish, one is a substantive and the other is an adjective,
so I would expect Jew to be used when referring to people. Or maybe
the two words could be seen as something similar to British and Brit?
+--
I know you can't speak, I know you can't sign
So cry right here on the dotted line

 wrote in message
news:a2u5sj$13maap$1...@ID-33279.news.dfncis.de...

Don't know about America but in England calling someone Jew-boy would be
offensive but calling someone a Jew is no different to calling someone a
Roman Catholic - an accurate description of their race/religion. It would
not be insulting.
Evi

 is not an offence in English.
Il pregiudizio è una cosa nera ma al fondo della psiche. I sentimenti offensivi
che vengono dalla parola "jew" detta negli Stati Uniti sono sottili.
Fondamentalmente, vengono da un pregiudizio senza rendersi conto ma profondo nei
riguardi degli ebrei. La parola è adatta e si dovrebbe usarla, ma se si dicesse
'he is a jew' anche col tono innocente, qualche gente sentirebbe scomoda, ma non
per buona causa.


So, is there any way to call a Jew/Jewish without hurting the feelings of somebody?
And now that I think of it, why is it that one should take offense at being called a Jew
(provided that he is actually a Jew) ?


 Ash nazg thrakatuluuk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Ma questa non e' la iscrizione sull'anello?
Non hai timore ad usarla addirittura come signature? :-))
ciao
Gennaro
--
Per rispondere eliminare ".HELL" dall'indirizzo.
To reply remove ".HELL" from the end of the address.
------

 called a Jew (provided that he is actually a Jew) ?
Precisamente, sta tutto lì.

So, is there any way to call a Jew/Jewish without hurting the feelings of somebody?
You could try Hebrew or Israelite, but I guess those words are rather
uncommon compared to Jew.

 Non hai timore ad usarla addirittura come signature? :-))
No perché io sono Sauron, sono tornato, ho ritrovato l'anello e mo sono
capperi vostri ^_^.
S-auron-ebastiano
P.S.
Non lo dire ancora in giro perché non ho ancora finito la mia armata di
Uruk,
versione 2.0.
P.S. 2
For everybody: " E mo sono capperi vostri" means "And now it is your
problem".
--
Ash nazg durbatuluuk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatuluuk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Min Côr a thorthad hain phain, Min Côr a chiriad hain,


 the two words could be seen as something similar to British and Brit?
I cannot speak for all 285 million Americans, but I do not see any
particular difference between the two terms, or anything offensive
about either.  What _is_ offensive is the use of the verb "to jew
down", meaning "to induce someone with whom you're negotiating over a
purchase to settle for a lower price by any means available", and any
other language usage which plays into old stereotypes of Jews as
moneychangers, unscrupulous merchants, sinsiter bankers manipulating
the financial world, etc.  I suppose it's difficult for someone not
especially fluent in English, in its North American or British or any
other variety, to avoid with complete confidence sometimes mistakenly
giving the impression that they're implying something like that.  I
imagine Italian "zingaro" comes with the same "traps"!  Certainly if a
person is _not_ ethnically a Jew or a Gypsy, calling them one is
usually not intended as a compliment.  However I rather like the
famous remark of Charlie Chaplin, who when "accused" of being Jewish,
said something along the lines of "Regrettably, Sir, I do not have the
honour of belonging to that race...".  I certainly wish I could play
the guitar like Manitas de Plata, myself!
George

could play the guitar like Manitas de Plata, myself!
I remember a scene in a Woody Allen's movie where he is asked if
he is a Jew, and he replies something like "No, but my parents are".


 he is a Jew, and he replies something like "No, but my parents are".
Sono cattolico? Io no, i miei genitori si. :)
Sebastiano, godless.

Sono cattolico? Io no, i miei genitori si. :)
Sono cattolico ? Solo da parte di mamma, mio babbo è di Rimini ;p

 Sono cattolico ? Solo da parte di mamma, mio babbo è di Rimini ;p
ROTFL :)


 ROTFL :)
I _know_ explaining jokes always takes away the fun, but could you
explain to a poor ignorant Alaskan what it is about Rimini that makes
the remark so funny?
Per favore?
George

 the remark so funny?
Ok. Well. Let's try to translate it. I do not know how to say a part of the
sentence so I'll explain it using different words.
"Sono cattolico ? Solo da parte di mamma, mio babbo è di Rimini ;p"
"Am I Catholic? Only for my mum (it means only my mum is Catholic so I am
Catholic only from that side), my dad is from Rimini.
Well, what's funny? Rimini is a city and Cattolica another one ^_^.
And now a question to everybody:
How can I say "da parte di" like the sentence I wrote?


 
 On my mother's side.
Max

  On my mother's side.
Thank you very much.
So it would be "Are you Catholic? Only on my mother's side, my father is
from
Rimini.


 Sebastiano
George

 like Rimini!  ;-)
It's a small one on  the sea. Well. it's not like Rimini ^_^. Rimini is
where the
life start from dusk till dawn (not with monsters , Clooney and Tarantino I
think...).


like Rimini!  ;-)
You can find some info and pictures about Cattolica here:
http://www.cattolica.net
Ciao,
Fabio :)

 
http://www.cattolica.net
Graxie, Fabio!  Molte interessante...
George in Alaska del sudest, dove piove oggigiorno

George in Alaska del sudest, dove piove oggigiorno
Fabio from Rimini, where the weather, in the last feew weeks, has been
very foggy and dull ;)

 Sebastiano
LOL!  My son (who'll be 18 26 February) is very fond of that movie (he
likes Quentin Tarantino generally).
BTW you might be interested to know that my elder daughter's middle
name is Galadriel... and her fifth child, my second grandson, is named
"Dakota Aragorn".  So you can imagine how pleased I was that Peter did
so well in casting Cate Blanchett for the part!
One can only hope that Follywood will get the message that it _is_
possible to make movies essentially faithful to the book(s) they're
based on, that people _like_ it, and that they will _pay_ to see them
(I've often thought that the secret motto of the big Follywood execs
is "Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate"!  ;-) )
The publisher of the Esperanto versions of LOTR and The Hobbit is an
old penpal of mine, Aleksandr Korzhenkov (used to live in Tyumen',
then en Yekaterinburg, now in Kaliningrad).  Unfortunately that
doesn't mean that I got good deals on the price of the books!  ;-)
George

 " and her fifth child, my second grandson, is named
I don't understand why her 5th child is only your 2nd grandson! You are not
grandfather to all her children, are you? I'm confused... and very curious!
Ciao.

name is Galadriel... 
You had an extremely good taste choosing that name. I would fall in
love with anyone named Galadriel even if she was a mass murderer.


...

LOL!  You don't understand about _granddaughters_?  She has five
children: Serena (grandchild #1, granddaughter #1), the twins Laura
and Mariah (#2 & #3), Isaiah (grandchild #4, grandson #1), and Dakota
(grandchild #5, grandson #2).
George

 doesn't mean that I got good deals on the price of the books!  ;-)
Hehehe. :)
Take this:
http://www.lodz.tpsa.pl/iso/Tolkien/vers-eng.html
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_elvish.htm
Sebastiano
--
POPPER - #167 deI FeSTosi


 George
I'm so stupid!!! I haven't thought about grandsons AND granddaughters...
maybe because in Italian we have only the word "nipote" for both females and
males, and while reading your post I just thought nipote without paying
attention to the male reference. I'm very sorry for having bothered you...
Ciao,
Puffin, che si sta cospargendo il capo di cenere e si sta frustando la
schiena con un bastoncino... e che si chiede come tutto questo si traduca in
inglese!!!

...

"... smearing his head with ashes and whipping his back with a rod",
but I'd probably say something like "smearing my forehead with ashes
and flagellating myself" or "wearing sackcloth and ashes in penance".
Anyway, I got the picture!  But surely such an abject apology is
unnecessary; I figured you had made that sort of mistake... which is
common is languages with 2 genders (in Spanish "hijos" is both "sons"
and "children", depending on the context).
George