Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: I canali di Marte

Il thread sui migliori errori di traduzione e quello sull'inglese
tecnico mi hanno fatto tornare alla mente le conclusioni che
scaturirono dall'improvvida traduzione in inglese del lavoro di un
astronomo italiano, Giovanni Schiaparelli. Nel 1877 Schiaparelli
riferi` di avere osservato su Marte delle linee sottili che chiamo`
"canali", come peraltro erano stati battezzati in precedenza dal piu`
autorevole astronomo italiano dell'epoca, il padre Secchi. 
In inglese "canale" puo` essere tradotto con due termini differenti
(Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary):
1) channel -> a: the bed where a natural stream of water runs b: the
deeper part of a river, harbor, or strait c: a strait or narrow sea
between two close landmasses, ecc.
2) canal -> an artificial waterway for navigation or for draining or
irrigating land
L'italiano "canale" e` pertanto ambiguo, potendo essendo attribuito
sia a scavi "artificiali" (come a Suez o a Panama) che a solchi non
prodotti dall'uomo. Tuttavia, probabilmente per assonanza, i (peraltro
fantomatici) "canali" descritti di Schiaparelli vennero tradotti con
"canals". Appena inglesi e americani cominciarono a chiamare quelle
linee "canals", cominciarono automaticamente a pensarli come costruiti
da esseri intelligenti. Nacque allora l'idea che esistessero i
Marziali, tirati in ballo recentemente perfino dalla NASA
verosimilmente per convincere il Congresso a stanziare piu` fondi per
i viaggi spaziali. Riporto comunque un brano dall'enciclopedia Grolier
(voce "Mars") che sintetizza molto bene l'accaduto:
In the late 1800s astronomers also began to observe linear
markings--termed "canali" by Giovanni Virginio Schiaparelli, though he
simply meant channels and not "canals"--that connected broad, dark
areas.  These observations increased speculation about intelligent
life on Mars, culminating in the popularization of this idea by
Percival Lowell. The "canali" are now known not to be real features
but probably to result from a visual illusion in which dark areas
appear connected by lines.
Ciao
Ferdinando Chiodo

 appear connected by lines.
Ho un dubbio. I canali di Marte non esistono, e' assodato.
Ma i marziani esistono?
Ciao
Alex
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appear connected by lines.
Scusa la domanda, ma di che anno č quest'enciclopedia Grolier?

Alex
Perché scusa a te Ferdinando Chiodo sembra un terrestre?
(Te vojo bbene Ferdinà, tu lo sai)
Baci (specie a Ferdi)
Isa

Scusa la domanda, ma di che anno č quest'enciclopedia Grolier?
1993
Ciao
Ferdinando Chiodo

simply meant channels and not "canals"--that connected broad, darkareas.  
But a canal *is* a channel. They derive from the same Latin root, and can 
often be used interchangeably.
Come discrimini tra "a simple channel" e "a canal"?
Raymot
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1993
Te l'ho chiesto perchè quel "probabilmente" mal si concilia con l'esistenza
di foto prese da sonde spaziali. Io ho una foto di marte in cui si vedono
benissimo delle 'cicatrici' mastodontiche sulla crosta del pianeta. Credo
fossero queste ad essere scambiate per canali, da terra - grazie anche ad
effetti ottici.

Come discrimini tra "a simple channel" e "a canal"?
Raymot, non posso conoscere l'inglese come te. Che "canal" e "channel"
abbiano la stessa etimologia, e` evidente. Ma che "canal" --a
differenza di "channel"-- indichi un artefatto l'ho trovato su tutti i
dizionari in mio possesso:
--------------
Collins Shorter English Learner's Dictionary:
canal, nc (countable noun), narrow waterway through land, made by man.
channel, nc
1. narrow stretch of water between two pieces of land.
2. course along which a river or other body of water flows
--------------
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:
canal n [ME, fr. L canalis pipe, channel, fr. canna reed--more at
cane] (15c) 
1: a tubular anatomical passage or channel: duct 
2: channel, watercourse 
3: an artificial waterway for navigation or for draining or irrigating
land 
4: any of various faint narrow lines on the planet Mars seen through
telescopes and once thought by some to be canals built by Martians.
channel n [ME chanel, fr. MF, fr. L canalis channel--more at canal]
(14c) 
1 a: the bed where a natural stream of water runs b: the deeper part
of a river, harbor, or strait c: a strait or narrow sea between two
close landmasses d: a means of communication or expression [snip] 
2 a: a usu. tubular enclosed passage: conduit b: a passage created in
a selectively permeable membrane by a conformational change in
membrane proteins 
3: a long gutter, groove, or furrow 
4: a metal bar of flattened U-shaped section 
channel n [alter. of chainwale, fr. chain + wale] (1769): one of the
flat ledges of heavy plank or metal bolted edgewise to the outside of
a ship to increase the spread of the shrouds
--------------
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:
canal, noun
1. An artificial waterway or artificially improved river used for
travel, shipping, or irrigation.
2. Anatomy. A tube, duct, or passageway.
3. Astronomy. One of the faint, hazy markings resembling straight
lines on early telescopic images of the surface of Mars.
[Partly French, channel, and partly Middle English, tube (from
Medieval Latin canale), both from Latin canalis, tube, channel,
probably from canna, small reed.]
channel, noun, Abbr. chan.
1. The bed of a stream or river.
2. The deeper part of a river or harbor, especially a deep navigable
passage.
3. A broad strait, especially one that connects two seas.
4. A trench, furrow, or groove.
5. A tubular passage for liquids; a conduit.
6. A course or passage through which something may move or be
directed: new channels of thought; a reliable channel of information.
[snip]
10. A rolled metal bar with a bracket-shaped section.
[Middle English chanel, from Old French, from Latin canalis.]
channel, noun
Nautical. A wood or steel ledge projecting from a sailing ship's sides
to spread the shrouds and keep them clear of the gunwales. [Alteration
of obsolete chainwale: chain + wale.]
--------------
Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary of Current English:
canal, n (n = noun)
1. a channel cut through land for boats boats or ships to travel
along, or to carry water to fields for crops.
2. a tube through which air or food passes in a plant or in an
animal's body
channel, n [C]
1a. a stretch of water joining two seas [snip]
5a. the low bed of a river, stream or canal
5b. a passage along which a liquid may flow
6. a part of a stretch of water, deeper than the parts on eitherside
of it, suitable for ships, boats, etc to sail on.
--------------
Ciao
Ferdinando Chiodo

 Perché scusa a te Ferdinando Chiodo sembra un terrestre?
Effettivamente...
Se apri il medline (
http://www.medline.com
) vi troverai le schede
degli articoli di medicina pubblicati nelle piu' importanti riviste
mediche del mondo. Un certo "Chiodo F." ne ha scritti oltre 200 e
ne ho trovato perfino un paio in inglese riguardanti i database.
Che il nostro ministro dei beni culturali sia migliore di
quanto pensassimo?


effetti ottici.
Su Marte, pianeta attualmente pressoche' privo di acqua, un tempo
l'acqua doveva essere abbondante. Il lander della missione Pathfinder
venne mandato proprio in vicinanza di un paio di alture, che mi pare
fossero chiamate Twin Peaks, i cui fianchi erosi verosimilmente
dall'acqua somigliavano a quelli di un canyon terrestre. I "canali" di
Schiaparelli erano invece sottili linee scure che univano delle aree
scure piu` grandi. Trascrivo qui la querelle dei canali da un numero
di Science di qualche anno fa:
[...] apparent  systems of rectilinear markings on the surface of Mars
that are now known to be illusions caused by the chance alignment of
large craters and other features of the Martian surface. They were the
subject of much controversy in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
The Italian astronomer and statesman Schiaparelli observed about 40 of
them, from 1877, and described them as canali (Italian: "channels").
The Italian astronomer Angelo Secchi had earlier noted similar
markings, but Schiaparelli's writings first drew wide attention to the
subject. The U.S. astronomer Percival  Lowell became the leader of
those who believed the markings to be bands of vegetation, kilometres
wide, bordering irrigation ditches dug by intelligent beings to carry
water from the polar caps. Lowell and others described canal
networks, studded with dark intersections called oases and covering
much of the surface of the planet. Occasionally the lines were
perceived as doubled; i.e., two parallel lines became visible where
only a single canal  had been seen before. Most astronomers could see
no canals, and many doubted their reality. Experiments with untrained
observers showed that disconnected features in diagrams or drawings
might be perceived as straight-line networks when viewed at the proper
distance. Photography through the Earth's atmosphere offered no
solution because the lines were near the limit of resolution of the
human eye and beyond that of the camera. The controversy was finally
resolved only when pictures were made from several hundred kilometres
above the surface of Mars  by the Mariner 6 and 7 spacecraft in 1969.
These showed many craters and other features but nothing resembling a
network of channels.
Ferdinando Chiodo

ne ho trovato perfino un paio in inglese riguardanti i database.
Mi metti in imbarazzo (metti in pericolo la mia privacy).
Comunque, la maggior parte di quegli articoli sono di Francesco
Chiodo, professore di infettivologia a Bologna. Una trentina degli
articoli registrati nel Medline sono in effetti miei. Ed
effettivamente alcuni anni fa ho scritto degli articoli sulla gestione
dei dati tossicologici.
Ferdinando Chiodo

Alex
Siccome, purtroppo, infatti, l'ho scelto io! Nella mia infinita
lungimiranza! Non sarà il caso di affidargli anche il Ministero
dell'Università e della Ricerca Scientifica!? Mi pare adatto... Sanità no
perché la deve già bazzicare tutti i giorni, non voglio infierire.
Ciao Ferdinà
Isa

Grazie,
Preciso ed esauriente come sempre.
ciao,
Peltio

dizionari in mio possesso:
[ ... ]
I see your point. But even the definitions you've given make it plain that
channel/canal does not reliably correlate with natural/artificial.
And consider this:
As mentioned, many canals occuring in the human body, eg. ear canals,
Haversian canals, are not man-made.
On the other hand, one has television, radio, IRC and internet channels;
all of which are man-made.
"The internet has opened a channel of communication into war-torn
Yugoslavia"
In any case, what was I trying to say was that the difference between a
channel and a canal would not be readily understood to mean a natural,
as opposed to an artificial, passage by many native English speakers,
regardless of what the dictionaries say.
Scriverei " ...simple (o natural) channels rather than artificial canals"
per
evitare la confusione.
Ciao,
Raymot
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Homepage: 
http://www.powerup.com.au/~rmottare/
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