Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: aiuto x piccola frase

salve a tutti, chi mi sa dire come posso tradurre correttamente:
"dato che il Signor X non ha potuto venire in Italia dal 01.01.07 al
07.01.07, lo invitiamo di nuovo dal 01.09.07 al 07.09.07"
grazie mille per le vostre risposte.
postina

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Anche se questo ng non e' un traduttore automatico...
"Since Mr. X could not come to Italy from ... to ..., we invite him 
again from ... to ..."
PS si scrive "non e' potuto venire"
		  ^^	

 PS si scrive "non e' potuto venire"
Hai ragione, ma non è come lo direbbe il madrelingua.
Since Mr. X wasn't able to come to Italy for (from) y to z, we are inviting
him again for q to p. ... or we will invite him again... or let's invite him
again.

 Hai ragione, ma non è come lo direbbe il madrelingua.
Grazie. In effetti non mi piaceva molto e speravo in una correzione. 
Soprattutto sulla seconda parte non ero convinto del semplice 
indicativo. Sulla prima parte però m'hai spiazzato: un madrelingua non 
direbbe "since he could not come"?

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Sì, sì, mi dispiace, si dicono tutt' e due. Non avrei dovuto fare quel 
cambio. A proposito, non è corretto dire 'since'. La parola adatta è 
'because'. La maggiore parte degli interlocutori fa questo errore, allora a 
molte persone non è un errore.

 'because'.
Another shock :)
I thought that the two words were completely interchangeable in cases 
like this one.

 this one.
A qualche persone, no. Per esempio...
http://www.presentersonline.com/basics/content/peskygrammar.shtml
http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/agcomm/ontarget/archive/02_04.htm#anchor5

Tony the Ice Man wrote:
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*per* molte persone
Kiuhnm

 
http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/agcomm/ontarget/archive/02_04.htm#anchor5
I'm not very convinced.
The Collins Cobuild says:
"5. You use since to introduce reasons or explanations.
   I'm forever on a diet, since I put on weight easily...
   CONJ: = as."
Longman Dictionary says:
"2. used to give the reason for something:
   Since you are unable to answer, perhaps we should ask someone else."
etc...
Kiuhnm

 
http://www.presentersonline.com/basics/content/peskygrammar.shtml
Thanks Tony.
Regarding the first link, I think this example is a bit confusing:
Incorrect:
     * She is standing among the boys.
Correct:
     * She is standing between the boys.
Who said anything about the number of boys? Maybe there are three or 
more of them and among would be correct....
Ah, *per alcune* persone.

 more of them and among would be correct....
Sta attento al "the" prima di "boys".
Cheers,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
What do you do with a B.A. in English?

 etc...
You're not very convinced of what?
You're not very convinced that there are people who believe that it is
substandard to use 'since' to say 'because?'
You're not very convinced that dictionaries are written to be descriptive
rather than prescriptive, and thus include all uses?
You're not very convinced that English language usage is resistant to black
and white categorizations of correct usage? (personaification, I know)
I have heard 'since' used in the place of 'because' countless times, and as
with most people who learn a language from usage, it sounds fine to me. As
you can see from my initial reply to this thread, I am not uncomfortable
using 'since', in a substandard way, in informal situations. I call it
substandard because when I've used it in formal written documents that were
edited by professional editors, the editors changed my 'since' to 'because'.
It was explained to me that the change was for clarity of meaning. Now, it's
true that at times I cannot fathom how easily people can misunderstand what
I write, but I've accepted this correction for formal documents and now
conform to it myself. In fact, even in informal situations when I recognize
that there may be some ambiguity of meaning, I choose 'because' instead of
'since'.
If I may be so bold to advise you, I don't think you need to be convinced of
anything. You just need to understand the gray area between the black and
white.

 white.
There is also the grey area between a grammarian and the other.
Kiuhnm

 Sta attento al "the" prima di "boys".
"The boys" sono necessariamente in due? Perché?

 "You're not very convinced that that use of 'since' is sub-standard?".
Oh, is that all? I left that out because I considered it moot. As I said, 
there are those who consider it substandard and those who don't. 

 "The boys" sono necessariamente in due? Perché?
No reason : the example is wrong , though in general the guideline is 
sensible (though note that in certain contexts 'between' can be used where 
more than two items are involved , and 'among' may be used with uncountable 
items).
re 'since' for 'because' , that's cropped up here before - I (in the UK) 
would have no hesitation in using 'since' in this sense even in the most 
formal of contexts , though it remains true that , having regard to the 
context and the audience you're addressing , you would avoid it if there 
were a possibility of ambiguity . Actually , I don't altogether agree either 
with the OP when he said that he thought 'because' and 'since' were 
interchangeable ; in the case he quoted ('dato che il Signor X non ha potuto 
venire') I would always say 'since' rather than 'because' ( though I might 
say 'given that' instead) . In practice , I think there are very few 
situations where they are genuinely interchangeable , in terms of the choice 
a native speaker would make .
The other sections in the link Tony provided are sound advice , except the 
one about 'quote' - in the UK , at least , 'quote' as a noun is now quite 
standard usage (the OED gives it without any suggestion of informal use 
,etc,) .
Mike 

 uncountable items).
Non ho guardato il link, ma leggendo "between the boys" immagino che in un 
ipotetico contesto precedente siano stati già descritti chi sono questi 
boys. Does that make any sense to you?


 questi boys.
Sure, but why *two* boys?

 Sure, but why *two* boys?
Have you read lentulax's reply to your previous post?
Kiuhnm

 Have you read lentulax's reply to your previous post?
Yes I did, and we agree in judging the example.
Il pentolaio, however, does not agree. He seems to be claiming that the 
definite article in front of the word "boys" implicitly means that we 
are talking about *two* boys, and that the use of between is correct.
And you, Kiuhnm, what do you think?

 talking about *two* boys, and that the use of between is correct.
No no no, non hai capito. "Between" si usa anche se gli oggetti o le persone 
in questione sono piů di due... basta che siano ben definiti, AFAIK.


 AFAIK.
Are you sure about this? I could not find a page supporting this among 
the first ones returned by google.

 first ones returned by google.
Riguardo alla frase che hai citato tu posso benissimo sbagliarmi, anzi quasi 
certamente mi sbaglio. Comunque Michael Swan in "Practical English Usage" 
dice:
************
Between and among
1) the difference
We say that somebody or something is between two or more clearly separate 
people or things. We use among when somebody or something is in a group, a 
crowd or a mass of people or things which we do not see separately.
Compare:
- She was standing between Alice and Mary
  She was standing among a crowd of children
- Our house is between the woods, the river and the village
  His house is hidden among the trees
************
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  She was standing among a crowd of children
mmm...
Is crowd countable?
Isn't "amid" a better choice?
Comunque il mio dizionario riporta:
"I saw a few familiar faces among the crowd."
Da quello che sapevo:
between - 2 things
among >= 2 things ( countable)
amid , amidst - uncountable
Ma forse si usa anche between fra più di 2 cose e among
anche tra gli uncountable.
-- 
pinko(at)
people.it

 Isn't "amid" a better choice?
E' un po' formale.


 Ah, *per alcune* persone.
Oh, that's right, thanks (re:qualche). You're also right that you can say 
'among the boys' if the context is appropriate. There could be a group of 
boys, and a group of girls, and a girl who is standing among the boys. 

 Ah, *per alcune* persone.
Come to think of it, my mistake was typographical in typing 'persone' 
instead of 'persona'. But it looks like I have to get that 'per' thing down. 

"pinko" <look-...@dev-null.invalid> wrote in message 
news:46d02cba$0$4793$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...
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As I said in my earlier post , this is certainly true ; examples can be 
found in the OED .
Mike 

                   ^^    
grazie anche per la correzione della mia frase in italiano. spero di
non essere OT: mi puoi' spiegare qual è la regola per cui si deve
usare "essere" anziché "avere"?
posta...

 again.
grazie per la risposta:-) - ancora due domande:
1. posso usare sia "for y to z" , sia  "from y to z"?
2. come scrivete in inglese le date in una lettera commerciale, se non
voglio scrivere per esteso il mese? (esempio: "01.09.07" per intendere
"September 1st, 2007")?
posta...

 posta...
/Sono/ andato -> /sono/ potuto andare -> /sono/ dovuto andare -> 
[essere] + ...
/Ho/ fatto -> /ho/ potuto fare -> /ho/ dovuto fare -> [avere] + ...
That is, the insertion of "dovere", "potere", etc... doesn't influence 
the choice between avere and essere.
When you have any doubt, strip the sentence of any extra modal verb and 
see which auxiliary verb make the simplified sentence correct. Then 
insert the modal verb without changing the auxiliary verb you have chosen.
But keep in mind this exception to the rule:
/Sono/ stato poco gentile -> /avrei/ dovuto essere piů gentile
Here, and in similar cases, we prefer "avrei" to "sarei" to avoid the 
repetition of the same auxiliary verb (namely, /sarei/ dovuto /essere/ 
piů gentile).
Kiuhnm

 "September 1st, 2007")?
Dipende se devi mandare la lettera in America o meno. La data che hai 
riportato viene letta in USA come "nove gennaio 2007". Per questo motivo io 
metterei sempre in esteso il nome del mese.


 1. posso usare sia "for y to z" , sia  "from y to z"?
"for - to" proprio no, semmai for X days from this date...

 io metterei sempre in esteso il nome del mese.
Mi č venuta in mente una cosa: a contrario dell'italiano, in inglese i mesi 
si possono abbreviare: Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May, Jun, Jul, Aug, Sep, Oct, 
Nov, Dec.
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