Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: American vs Spanish

 
Just a simple curiosity..I've noticed that Americans are used to speak in
Spanish when they don't know the language of their interlocutors.I was
reading a recent issue of Fantastic Four and when the marines arrived in
Latveria(Doctor Doom's nation) they start speak in spanish with the
latverians...I'm mad or there's an explaination?
Raudo & Curious cats
--------------------------------
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 latverians...I'm mad or there's an explaination?
I can't comment on your mental health but Spanish is one of the most common
foreign languages spoken in the US because of the proximity of Mexico,
Puerto Rico, Central America, and Canada (nix that last one). Also, Spanish
is considered the easiest foreign language to learn so lots of lazy students
choose it as their foreign language.

 wrote in
message news:2q68jvF...@uni-berlin.de...

There are not too many Americans who learn Spanish very well, not even
the children of Spanish speakers.
Spanish was the dominant non-Native American language in Arizona,
California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, and Texas, before those
areas were taken over by the United States, and the language continues
to be spoken by the descendants of those people, as well as by the
large influx of immigrants into those areas.
People who come to live here on the "mainland" from Puerto Rico speak
Spanish as their first language, but their children who were born here
have developed a fractured version of the language, which is a
combination of Spanish and English. My Puerto Rican friends who were
born in Puerto Rico and who live here are embarrassed by the Spanish
their children speak. "That's not Spanish, that's 'New Yorrican'", is
a phrase I have heard these exasperated parents use.
I agree that studying Spanish is considered an "easy out" for most
students who have to study a foreign language. One of the problems
with studying Spanish is the variety of accents heard in the US. If I
listen to the Spanish-language channel "Univision", I find that I am
turned off by the accents I hear. On the other hand, when
I listen to the Internet radio station "Onda Cero" from Madrid, I find
the accent very pleasant, although I have never had a teacher who
spoke with a Castilian accent, nor can I say for sure that I have met
any Spaniards (except when I was in Spain, when I did not know any
Spanish, and had to depend on my talian).
If you go to Canada you will find that High-School Spanish is just
about as useful as High-School French. You will find that the vast
majority of Americans who visit Québec and who have studied
High-School French have very little success in understanding the
language, or in making themselves understood. They return home and
tell their friends that "they don't speak real French in Québec", when
the truth is that the American school systems have not taught them
enough French. The same holds true when tourists go to
Spanish-speaking neighboring countries and fail to communicate in
Spanish.
Joe from Massachusetts

Joe from Massachusetts
I remember as an 11-year-old being so excited about learning French at
my new secondary school. One year in I was bored shitless with it. I
often wonder where my enthusiasm went. I do think in part it was down
to the educational system over here. I don't know exactly what was at
fault but I don't know anyone, friends or family that can speak a
foreign language. I do believe that lot of it is down to the fact that
so many foreigners speak our language. This removes the necessity to
learn a foreign one.

 foreign languages spoken in the US because of the proximity of .....
Not only. Spanish is one of the most common languages of the world.
It is not a bad idea to try to use it if your interlocutor doesn't know
english.
In any case you have to take into account where you are.
A day I lose myself in hungarian countryside and tried to ask help to some
peasants with the few english, french, spanish and romanian words I knew (I
underscore, the very very few words I knew of those languages, I'm
ignorant). Nada :-)
Lapo

 enough French.
I would say that a big part of the problem for students from the US who
have studied French in school (excuse the long-winded sentence: I'm trying
to avoid saying "American students", as that also includes Candians, Canada
being part of North America, although you wouldn't know it these days)...
any way, the French that we learned in HS was antiquated, formalized and
basically useless for conversational situations.
Add to that the fact that Canadian French differs from that of France
significantly in pronunciation and vocabulary, and you have a real
comphrehension problem for someone who learned old, bad French French [sic]
as a second or third language.
When I worked in an amusement park several.... a few... years ago, it was
as the "Cotton Candy Man." A couple of Canadian kids came to the stand and
asked "Combien coûte ça?" (What does that cost?) I knew that in "correct
French" it should have been "Combien est-ce que ça coûte?" (the "proper"
French I learned in school.) But I knew what she meant, so I answered
"Quinze sous." (15 Cents) After having to repeat it a few times, I heard
one say to the other "Ah, dix-cinq sous" which you would never hear in
France. Apparently, "quinze" isn't used in Canada.
-- 
Pear pea a chair, Ray. Core Reggie eel me oh eat alien, oh... :)
Joey DoWop, working on a temporary account.

 ignorant). Nada :-)
Not really ignorant; if you were, you'd say "I'm iggerant!" :)
(also remember that in English, names of languages are capitalized.)


 (also remember that in English, names of languages are capitalized.)
Thank you Joey for corrections, very appreciated.
Lapo

 P.S. I've not understood  your "iggereant" joke ...
Sorry... It was a lame attempt at humor: if you were truly ignorant, you
wouldn't know how to pronounce that word, and so you might say (as people
sometimes do, jokingly, to emphasize the level of ignorance): "iggerant."
An example of bad pronunciation.
Like when, say, some people pronounce "nuclear" as "NU-cyu-l&r"



And "W" as "Dubya".  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 France. Apparently, "quinze" isn't used in Canada.
I can assure you that "quinze" is used quite regularly in Quebec, and
Ottawa, although I'm not sure about the rest of Canada.
* Quote* In general European French speakers have no problems
understanding
newscasts or other moderately formal Québécois speech. However, they
will
have great difficulty understanding sitcom dialog (this is much more
due to
idioms, slang and vocabulary rather than accent or pronunciation). To
the
extent that sitcom dialog reflects everyday colloquial speech,
European
French users will have difficulty with everyday colloquial speech of
Québécois speaking to one another. However, when speaking to a
European
French speaker, a Québécois French speaker is perfectly capable of
shifting
to a slightly more formal "international" type of speech. *Unquote*
http://www.free-definition.com/Quebec-French.html#Comparisons
I found this to be true without exception, whether I was chatting with
people on a city bus, shopping, asking for information, reserving a
room on
the telephone, or ordering "poutine" in the local fast-food joint.
As I said before, if you have an adequate knowledge of "French
French", you
will have no problem conversing with people who speak "Canadian
French".  If
you have an adequate knowledge of English, you will have no problem
conversing with Australians, or Englishmen. (In any case, you won't
understand any of them if they don't want you to understand them).
Joe from Massachusetts

 French" it should have been "Combien est-ce que ça coûte?"
Isn't "Combien coûte ça?" an ordinary inversion, which is the most correct
way of forming questions? I'm not sure, since I've just very little French.
Bye, FB
-- 
"What meaning of this, Mitter Twain?". "I will tell you, Mr Wang, if you
can tell me why a man who possesses one of the most brilliant minds of this
century can't say his prepositions or articles".
(Murder by Death)

 way of forming questions? I'm not sure, since I've just very little French.
Yes, it is (although I think it would be more common to say "Ça coûte
combien?"), but my point is that when I learned French, we were taught that
inverted word order is only used with personal pronouns -- except "je" --
except occasionally with "suis" and "puis".
Obviously no one talks this way; it's formal and outdated, much like the
first books of Italian I acquired, which taught me that "egli" and "ella"
were the (only) way to say "he" and "she".


 And "W" as "Dubya".  :>)
do people call Bush Dubya? :-)


Yes, in order to differentiate between George H.W. (aitch dubya)  and
George W.(dubya), their Texas friends started calling W. "dubya".
Joe from Massachusetts

 latverians...I'm mad or there's an explaination?
The explanation is very simple: Spanish is the official language of
Latveria.
That was decided by a decree from Doctor Fatídico (as he is now to be
called) after a clandestine newspaper dubbed him "Doctor Blunder",
suggesting that he was costantly mixing up the 57 cases of the Latverian
declension.
--
Cingar




Only if they like him. There are other names.


 You can make of that what you will :->.
"It's pretty well known" according to what sources? When you say
"they" talk about "not just pronunciation", who are "they", and what
examples can you give? If you have been to Quebec and were
unsuccessful in your attempts to communicate in French, I would
attribute that to a lack of knowledge on your part, and not to some
imagined unintelligibility of the language spoken there.
If I, with my somewhat limited knowledge of French, have never had one
single instance of being unable to hold a conversation without
difficulty in French with the Quebecois, doesn't it stand to reason
that a Parisian would have even less of a problem?
It is true that the French look down on the language of the Quebecois,
in the same way that the British have a poor opinion of the speech of
Americans and Australians.
I have visited Quebec many times, and when I first went there, I had
heard from friends the usual canard  that the Quebecois don't speak
intelligible French. I was quite surprised that I never ran into any
situation where I had a problem understanding anyone who spoke to me,
and they had no problem understanding me, just as I had no problem
communicating in French during the month I spent in Paris.
I can't say exactly what the differences in pronunciation between
Parisian French and Quebecois French are. I can only say that I
understand both without any problem. In the same way, I could not give
you a list of the differences in the pronunciation of the Neapolitans
versus that of people from the Veneto, but I understand both when they
speak, having spent several years in each of those areas. Of course,
we speak Italian, and not dialect. Is the Italian of one group
inferior to the other? Do Italians from these two areas find each
other mutually unintelligible? No more and no less than the Quebecois
and the Parisians do.
"The idea that Quebecois is a "bastardized" version of Parisian French
is as
wrong as the suggestion that American is a bastardisation of London
English."
http://www.techwr-l.com/techwhirl/archives/9708/techwhirl-9708-00711.html
"However, when speaking to a European French speaker, a French speaker
from Quebec is perfectly capable of shifting to a slightly more formal
"international" type of speech."
"Although it is best to avoid generalizations, Parisian French speech
(and public speakers such as politicians) often come across as stuffy
or snobbish to the ears of Quebec Francophones. It is very similar to
the perception North American English-speakers may have of British
English ("upper-class" and "fancy")."
http://www.phatnav.com/wiki/index.php?title=Quebec_French
Joe from Massachusetts

 and vernacular differences.
This seems like a misunderstanding to me. You might make note however that
you made a similar misinterpretation, judging from your response, of the
assertion that Spanish is considered easy to learn by college students. That
was also not offered as an opinion, but merely an observation on what many
college students think.

 what they speak.
I agree that there are significant differences between Continental and
Canadian French, as it's been my experience. I don't mean to imply any
value judgment: I don't hold "low opinion" of Canadian and Cajun French. I
simply note, and am somewhat intrigued by, the differences, which as you
aptly point out, have to do with pronunciation, vernacular and vocabulary.
I liken it to the differences between British and American English, and
Continental and Central-, Caribbean- and South-American-Spanish.
When a Brit friend, a male, tells me he wants to stop by his flat to
collect a jumper, I have a vague idea of where he's going, but I'm not sure
what he wants (I'm thinking "He wears a jumper? i.e., a 'skirt'?") but when
he explains that a jumper is a sweater, it makes sense.
How many British films have you watched where the accent and vocabulary are
so diverse from the American English to which you are accustomed that you
miss the first half-hour or so, maybe longer, until your ear accustoms
itself to the pronunciation? Even then you will most likely miss a big part
of the vocabulary, unless you've spent a lot of time there.
-- 
Still on a temporary account. Now I've lost the DSL altogether.
Using DIALUP!


My original point was that there is absolutely no problem of
comprehension between a Quebecois and a Parisian (or anyone who has
studied Parisian French), and a Quebecois, when they speak French.
Whatever opinions they may have of each other has nothing to do with
their ability to communicate. I also stated originally that many of my
friends who visit Quebec and find it impossible to communicate
attribute this failure to communicate to the incomprehensibility of
the speech of the Quebecois. This is the excuse used by people
inadeqately schooled in the French language, but who are unwilling to
admit it. These same people would be equally befuddled if they
attempted to speak French in Paris.
Interestingly, many of the characteristics which the French find
unpalatable in the dialectal speech of the Quebecois are the result
not of changes by the Quebecois, but of changes in the French spoken
in France. The most notable difference is the tendency of the
Quebecois to say "-oy" instead of "-wa" in words which end in "-oi",
such as "moi, toi, loi". The Quebecois pronunciation is the original
"royal" French, and the Parisian is the result of the adoption of
"bourgeois" French as the national language of France .
I realized long ago that my Bronx accent was not palatable to the
people of Georgia and Kansas and Texas, so I learned to modify my
speech, in order to communicate more efficiently (and also to avoid
ridicule).
The same holds true for the Quebecois when they speak to foreigners. A
few years ago I was in a McDonalds in Sherbrooke (PQ) with my family
at lunch time, and two young men sat down at the next table, and were
speaking alternately in English and in the local Quebecois dialect.
After a while it became obvious from their accents that one was a
native English speaker, and the other was a native French speaker.
Both men spoke both languages, and switched back and forth. Sometimes
one would say something in French, and the other would answer in
English. It seemed that certain subjects called for English, and
others French. I could not understand much of what they were saying
when they spoke in French. Curious, I struck up a conversation with
them. When the native French speaker spoke to me in French, it was a
French unlike the French he used when speaking to his friend. I
understood him perfectly, because he realized I was a foreigner, and
adjusted his speech accordingly.
If I were to take the train from Venice to Verona, or if I were to
ride the subway in Naples, and if I were to eavesdrop on the
conversations going on around me, I would probably understand very
little of what was being said. But if I struck up a conversation with
any of these people, and they recognized that I was not a "local",
they would switch from dialect to Italian, and we would have a
mutually intelligible conversation. Those Venetian train passengers
and those Neapolitan subway riders may have very poor opinions of each
other's local speech, but that doesn't mean that when they visit each
other they will have problems of comprehension, because they have the
Italian language in addition to the dialect, just as the Quebecois and
the Parisian have the French language.
Mutual disdain for the pattern of speech of others may exist, but it
does not interfere with communication.
One man's "pentola" is another man's "pinhata".
Joe from Massachusetts

 "bourgeois" French as the national language of France .
Doesn't the same hold true for some features of American English? As for
pronunciation, I think both BritEng and AmEng have changed a great deal,
but what about words and their usage? Yesterday I wrote about "many":
apparently an Englishman is not likely to say "I have many books" (I
understand it would sound correct, idiomatic but slightly formal), but my
hunch is that British English has changed, whilst American English did not,
in this regard.
* I guess Aussie and Kiwi English can give a hard time, too.
Bye, FB
-- 
Domanda: "Era il figlio di Iside e Osiride".
Risposta: "Thor".
(quiz televisivo)

 learn a foreign one.
The strictly practical necessity, perhaps. It doesn't remove the
cultural necessity though ;)
I think that studying foreign languages is also a way to get to know
different peoples in a more direct way, so it can be a mind-opening
experience!

Enrico C ha scritto:

Not only that, but each time I learn a little about another language, I
learn a bit more about how to express myself in English.
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 learn a foreign one.
The strictly practical necessity, perhaps. It doesn't remove the
cultural necessity though ;)
I think that learning foreign languages is also a way to get to know
