Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Scritto bene?

I want know if exist any copy NFR of the softx and, if possibile, i want make a review.
vorrei dire:
io vorrei sapere se esiste una copia NFR del softx e se è possibile vorrei scrivere una recensione.
Grazie e "scusate la banalità ":)

 io vorrei sapere se esiste una copia NFR del softx e se č possibile vorrei
scrivere una recensione.
I would like to know if there is a copy NFR by softx and, if it's possible,
I would like to write a review.
Softx che cos'č??? Una ditta?
Ciao
--
Rocks

io vorrei sapere se esiste una copia NFR del softx e se è possibile vorrei scrivere una recensione.
I'd like to know if an NFR copy of Softx is available and - if that's
possible - I'd like to review it.
Sebastiano

Softx che cos'č??? Una ditta?
Dovrebbe essere il nome del software. NFR significa not-for-resale. 
NFR copy of Namesoftware, e.g. An NFR copy of Office XP.
Sebastiano

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:jdgc905u93j7ajs39...@4ax.com...

Ok, allora 'an NFR copy of Softx ' č corretto, avevo inteso un'altra cosa...
Ciao
--
Rocks

Grazie a tutti.
La NFR sono copie NFR e  softx non è il vero nome del software (non voglio essere accusato di
pubblicità).

Io non ho paura
La stanza del figlio
La meglio gioventů
Can anyone recommend one or all? They've been posted in a Dutch group
called a.b.ftn. I'm keen to improve my Italian. They're all in Italian
with English subs which is perfect for me.



Why don't you start a new thread? By the way, I don't happen to have seen
any of those films.
Bye, FB

Why don't you start a new thread? 
I plead dimness bordering on Alzheimer's. I got confused with how I
use Agent when dealing with emails.

Why don't you start a new thread? 
He has (started a new thread). It's called "Has anyone seen...?". Why
the question?
I saw La meglio gioventů last summer and I liked it a lot. The film
has the ambition of recounting and showing (the last) forty years of
Italian history, seen through the lives of two brothers, their family
and friends. It is altogether not on the same level of Bertolucci's
Novecento, but I appreciated it. Beware though: it lasts 6 (six)
hours, I saw it at the cinema on two subsequent nights. You have been
warned.
Ciao,
-- 
Isa
Work like you don't need money,
Love like you've never been hurt,
And dance like no one's watching
http://web.tiscali.it/alfabeto_auschwitz/index.htm

 La NFR sono copie NFR
The mind boggles

 the question?
He has not, according to my Dialog. He changed the subject of the thread
"Scritto bene?". Perhaps your newsreader automatically starts a new thread
when the subject changes.  
I suggest that Jonny should start a new thread to get more replies.
Bye, FB

Ciao,
Thanks, I'll grab that one now.

I suggest that Jonny should start a new thread to get more replies.
Well, he did that. In an odd way, but the result is the same. Change
the settings of your newsreader in order to see things as they should
be, and you won't notice differences that are not meant to be noticed.
:)
Sebastiano

 Well, he did that. In an odd way, but the result is the same.
I beg to diffeh (R). If you change the subject to a thread, rather than
begin a new one, you want to write in that thread; if you begin a brand-new
thread, you want to open quite another discussion. 
I prefer to keep the messages of a thread together as sometimes one changes
its subject, quotes badly and maybe adds relevant content to the original
discussion, which must, then, be divided.
At any rate, I should think one usually changes the subject to a thread to
continue that discussion, adding new, in- or off-topic, elements.
Nothing to worry about, though (smiling face): I've never been a keen
upholder of extreme netiquette. In brief, I could hardly care less. (witty
face)
Bye, FB

 thread, you want to open quite another discussion. 
Agreed :)
That's another kettle of fish! 
If I reply to a message and the topic has changed, I can just change
the Subject. 
But if I am not replying to anything, I use  the "New post to
newsgroup" command, not the "Followup" command  :)
Anyway, jonny already explained that was a slip :)


 La stanza del figlio
I watched this one and did not like it. I do not usually like Moretti's works
so I don't think I am qualified to review this. What I can remember is that it
is mostly "slow" (and no, this is NOT the reason I did not like it, of course),
so probably easy to follow if your italian is decent enough. Of course, I may
be totally wrong, as I have never studied Italian.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

face)
^_^
Sebastiano

 part of the original one.
The message still has a Reference header so it does technically belong to the
old thread. It is very hard to blame OE for such a choice, as it does merely
follow what the headers say. Plus, you have to take into account mailers
messing up with the subject line in fancy ways (as in the old problem with
Outlook Italian version using "R:" to mark replies instead of "Re:" and such).
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

Outlook Italian version using "R:" to mark replies instead of "Re:" and such).
Well, with all those R: Usenet was a mess. Now it's better. IIRC it
was a problem caused by Outlook Express 5.0. Who used the r: was not
aware of the trouble they were causing because they had all the
different subjects in one mail (and of course because for their
software the r: was the standard). I saw a new thread everytime a r:
appeared. I could have fixed that, adding r: to the allowed reply
(re:), but it was OE that needed to be fixed, not Agent.
Anyway, I didn't want to start a flame. I do think that if you need to
post a completely new thread, not related to anything, you ought to
start a new thread, and not rename one.
But I also do think that changing the subject of a thread is useless
if the result is not a new thread. 
Sebastiano

 thread. 
So do I. Anyway, it's a matter of tastes :-)


 Outlook Italian version using "R:" to mark replies instead of "Re:" and such).
And for *that* OE was to blame  ;)


And for *that* OE was to blame  ;)
And for top-posting. :)
Sebastiano

So do I. Anyway, it's a matter of tastes :-)
Probably. I think it's a matter of being used with OE. :)
Sebastiano

 while top-posting is a pain in the... you know where. :)
You're really too prudent sometimes. You may well say "neck", come on!
Bye, FB

 You're really too prudent sometimes. You may well say "neck", come on!
Or a demure acronym, PITA ;)


 And for top-posting. :)
And for a few other things ;)


You're really too prudent sometimes. You may well say "neck", come on!
That's not painful enough. ;)
Sebastiano

 The mind boggles
E' un periodo di forte stress emotivo scusa :)

And for a few other things ;)
Like having by default HTML outgoing e-mails, or the hideous i:, and
so on. :)
Sebastiano

 they ought to be. 
E come si direbbe in italiano "thread drift"? Una cosa che, diciamo,
capita. Qui e altrove. Puo' dar noia, sicuramente, ma anche qualche
rivelazione.
WW UseNet, say I.
-- 
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water"  Ibn Khaldun
My .
mac.com
 address is a spam sink.
If you wish to email me, try atlothian at blueyonder dot co dot uk

Sebastiano
:)

 allowed?
I think he means adding "r:" to the list of reply identifiers
recognized by the newsreader.
-- 
(T)EFL online communities
http://groups.msn.com/TEFL

So do I. Anyway, it's a matter of tastes :-)
I'd personally say "a matter of taste" (this seems to be a rather
fixed expression).  But "a matter of tastes" is okay.
-az

but you can leave it in there for a "dramatic pause.")
I love bein' dramatic. ;)
Sebastiano

reply identifiers
Identifier!!! That was the word I needed. :)
Sebastiano



yes, "adding r: to the recognized/allowed repy identifiers" would have
worked.
:) 

worked.
Try as I might, I couldn't come up with a suitable word. I was on the
verge of writing "thing", but then my brain decided that writing only
"reply" was better. It - the brain - thought that if I could not
remember the word, that was because there wasn't any word at all. As
you can see it's clearly not my fault. ;)
Sebastiano

 fixed expression).  But "a matter of tastes" is okay.
Actually, I was in doubt about this one :-)


 "These workers are considered (as) a high-risk group."
I agree with Enrico and would consider this as a stylistic choice.


wrote:

Thanks, I might check it out. I've got La meglio gioventů. My Italian
is at a novice stage, I've got no chance without subtitles.  I'm
hoping that watching an Italian film may help me improve in some way.




If you can use "as" here, you are using a different underlying syntax
than in "I consider X [to be] Y."
I can only pattern "consider" with "find" (or "believe" with
non-finite clauses):  if the clausal complement is not finite ("that .
. . "), it is either a (for-less) non-finite clause (with "to be") or
it's a "small clause," e.g. I found him [to be] friendly; I consider
him a good doctor.  
"As" sounds abominable in these to me.  It reads like a translation.
For me, this is in direct opposition to something like "think
of/regard" --> I think of/regard him as a good doctor.  vs. *I think
of/regard him [to be] a good doctor.
I just found this on "consider as":
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C002/013.html
(Just an aside:  there's a term for all of these verbs--"consider,
find, regard, believe/expect/want":  exceptional case marking verbs
(because the subject of the complement clause is accusative
case-marked by the higher verb).  Some ECM verbs take some structures;
others take others.)
-az

 hoping that watching an Italian film may help me improve in some way.
I'm sure it will. Are there any peculiar accents in that film? The title
seems "romanesco".
Bye, FB


wrote:

Non ho la minima idea :)
I haven't watched it yet but I can't see me being able to notice
different accents but you never know. I'll let you know how I get on.
Questo č il film
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346336/

 different accents but you never know. I'll let you know how I get on.
I wouldn't want you to learn to speak romanesco (Rome's dialect) believing
it's Italian.
I once read of a Chinese who was sent to London by his firm because he had
to learn English. After some months he came back to China, he began
speaking English and nobody could understand him. He had been to work in a
Greek restaurant, and he had learnt Greek very well.
Bye, FB

> "As" sounds abominable in these to me.  It reads like a translation.
That's the interesting thing about style, isn't it? There are always
phrasings that are on the edge of acceptability for some, are horrendous to
others, and perfectly fine for whomever else. This disagreement happens even
among people who make language their living. In fact, it happens not only
for stylistic differences, but also regarding questions of grammar proper.
Do a search for this phrasing and you will find it used in numerous places,
by well-educated professionals. And it is this pervasive usage that
determines actual acceptability.

 wrote in message
news:c79d9m$1be5e$1...@ID-210696.news.uni-berlin.de...

'well-educated' begs the question ! I'm with Ara Zacis on this - to me
'consider as' is uneducated usage . I don't see it as stylistic choice , but
ignorance of the (traditionally correct) alternative : on what stylistic
grounds would one choose to use 'consider as' rather than 'consider' +
complement ? It's rather like the frequent use of 'comprise of' instead of
'comprise' : comprise means 'consist of'' , and consider  means 'regard as'
. Of course , you're right about usage ; you'll find 'it's' for the
possessive 'its' almost everywhere these days , and probably 'consider as'
is quite common ; so what is a solecism one day is acceptable the next . But
to those of you learning English , I can assure you that the 'correct' usage
of consider will sound ok to everyone , whereas there are still quite a lot
of us English speakers to whom 'consider as' sounds a bit off . (Don't know
about American English , tho'.)
Mike


Ara's first thoughts were best . No-one would say 'a matter  of tastes' - it
might be linguistically correct , but 'a matter of taste' is the expression
universally used .
Mike

 seems "romanesco".
It's not very 'romanesco', if I remember well. Most of the story takes
place in Torino, and you can hear a lot of different accents, from milanese
to toscano to siciliano.
I also liked a lot 'Io non ho paura'. Long hot sunny afternoons with
nothing to do for a group of ten years kids in the late Seventies,
somewhere between Basilicata and Puglia, fantabulous yellow cornfields,
vast blue skies, bicycles and peacefulness. Then, suddenly, *something*
happens: a disturbing discovery, a terrible secret... 
You'll find it very touching if you can remember what it was like to be
ten.
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 about American English , tho'.)
I don't agree that a comparison with the possessive "it's" is appropriate,
because it's genuinely incorrect". Of course, you are entitled to your
opinion on 'consider as', but the fact remains that it is used often by
well-educated writers, whether they be questioning, begging, or making a
fine living at their craft. Regarding the grammar point, I think you'd get
more complaints from grammar purists on how you used a colon in your post.
Some would insist on a period or at the very least a capital letter. I don't
point this out to be petty, but rather to illustrate the point that there is
an element of subjectivity in usage. Perhaps your use of a colon is
acceptable British usage, but it struck me as substandard.

 wrote in message
news:c7a5sh$1f21e$1...@ID-210696.news.uni-berlin.de...

Sorry , but my use of the colon is absolutely regular  :  a colon used thus
introduces a sentence which in some way explains or expands upon what has
been said in the preceding sentence . A colon is absolutely never followed
by a capital , any more than a semi-colon ; both may be used to separate
grammatically complete sentences , as  in this instance .  I *am* a grammar
purist .
I hope nobody on here takes correction personally !  I'm perfectly happy to
accept criticism (massive opportunities when I write in Italian!) , but in
this case I think you're simply wrong .
Regards ,
Mike .

 this case I think you're simply wrong .
How can one be a grammar purist? There is no-such thing as pure
grammar.  It seems to consist entirely of agreements about usage
which is an arbitrary thing at best. If a purist, which rules do you
adhere to? Those of 1066AD or 1850AD or perhaps 1999? English or
American?  ;-) 
As for colons: " It suggests a pause in speech - greater than that of
a comma and less than that of a full stop."
hehe
-- 
              O      __
      ___   /\     / / O  
     /__ \   | \   /  |
    O  /  \ /   \./   |       Loki
        |________ |
 



I can just about remember ;-) but I can't get this post now, too many
incompletes and not enough PARs but I'll look out for a repost, thanks
for the review.
BTW: Your English is very good so I hope you don't mind me correcting
you but in English we don't say "ten years kids" it's.. 
"ten year *old* kids" with the *year* being singular in this case but
plural in instances like "I am 35 years old".
And where did you get " fantabulous" from? great word! but isn't
really a word, well, at best it can be described as slang, a mixture
of  "fantastic" &"fabulous" but it's not a common word at all, maybe
someone will disagree with me.

Greek restaurant, and he had learnt Greek very well.
He probably greeted them on his return by saying "Allo peeps!".

 in this case I think you're simply wrong .
I also make occassional errors, but not in this case. I would add that the
Chicago Manual of Style, although it is the most respected guide to writing
in print in the US, expresses only one perspective on grammar and usage. It
is however, at a minimum, a valid perspective.

 
AmEng Ketzl here.
I remember using the term "fantabulous" lo-o-o-o-o-ong ago (in the 
greater Boston area.) I would say it was in the 70s, but I'm only 1.5-
year-old-cat.
-- 
I am Joey's Cat
(with apologies to Reader's Digest)
Un-not my address, too, if you wanna reply.

 year-old-cat.
Catz, cats are curious creatures.
Bye, FB

 really a word
:-) I know. It's from an old, beautiful song by Van Morrison, "Moondance".
If you have had the misfortune of hearing the Michael Buble's version on
the radio, please forget it and look for the original, the one with heart
and soul.
-- 
Ciao,
Anna


Don't know where you got that quote from , but the notion that there's a set
length of pause corresponding to a comma , a colon , and a full-stop has no
relation to reality . For a start , I'd ask why in speech you should want to
pause for a length of time between that required by a comma and a full-stop
? How would a listener identify that distinction ? I don't think that , if
one heard someone reading a  written passage containing a colon where a full
stop might have been used , one could conceivably determine which had been
used by the writer . There is some correlation between pauses and
punctuation , simply because pauses are a major means in speech (together
with pitch, etc.) of indicating structure and thus aiding understanding ,
and punctuation serves the same function in writing . When a colon is used
between grammatically complete sentences , a full-stop or a semi-colon would
never be incorrect ; however , the semi-colon and colon have a function in
preparing the reader for what is to come , and thus aiding understanding :
sentences separated by a full stop may be completely different in subject
matter ; those separated by a semi-colon are linked in theme ; and where
they are separated by a colon , the second in some way explains or
elaborates upon the first . (In English English!)
Mike

 wrote in message
news:c7bvtu$27odm$1...@ID-210696.news.uni-berlin.de...

Well , I did say in my original post that I didn't know about American
English (not all that dogmatic!) , and what we've got here is obviously
another difference in transatlantic usage : in the example you quote (where
actually only one sentence follows the colon) we'd never use a capital
letter for 'if' , so I suppose we're both right ; but at least I'll  know
what to write now when I visit theUSA .
Mike
PS In a quick scan of a couple of novels by Henry James (though he's a great
deal fonder of the semi-colon ) all the colons between two sentences were
followed by a small letter ; same result from a brief survey of  'The Dice
Man.'

 what to write now when I visit theUSA .
We're both right?  That begs the question!
I wrote: Some would insist on a period or at the very least a capital
letter. That was an accurate statement.
You wrote: A colon is absolutely never followed by a capital , any more than
a semi-colon ; both may be used to separate grammatically complete sentences
, as  in this instance . That statement was patently wrong. In fact you will
find some situations even in Great Britain where a colon is followed by a
word with an initial capital letter.
I'd suggest to you that the readers of this newsgroup expect that if a
person is going to make absolute, definitive statements and justify the
arrogance with a mantle of grammar purist, that person should have a wide
and comprehensive knowledge of what they're talking about. For this
particular reader I would add the expectation that there is no place at all
for such arrogance.
I hope that you don't take this correction personally! I don't hesitate to
mention it because you've said that you're perfectly happy to accept
criticism, and as you consider yourself a purist regarding grammar, I
consider myself a purist regarding accuracy.
PS: In that same vein, I would write 'in the example you cite', not 'in the
example you quote'.

 word with an initial capital letter.
I can't think of any, except possibly in a bulleted list, but even there
I don't like it. 
I'm surprised the Chicago Style Manual uses a capital letter in the
example you quoted.
-- 
Mary

 example you quoted.
Some professional editors as a matter of consistent style require that the
text introduced by a colon always begins with an initial cap.

 initial capital letter.
In GB we don't normally use a colon, but a comma in the first two cases.
The third is obviously correct.
-- 
Mary

 I *am* a grammar purist .
Michael, I'm really curious to know why you leave a space before all
your punctuation marks; I know the French use this system (though not
before a comma IIRC), but I've never seen an English writer do it.
-- 
Mary

 The third is obviously correct.
In following the shift of this discussion to what is 'normally' chosen
rather than what is merely permissible, I would add that most good writers,
when they want to write two sentences, seperate those two sentences with a
period rather than a colon. Often the choice of punctuation to use with a
colon is problematic, especially when creating a bulleted list since you
have to worry about the stylistic choices of, not only whether each item
should begin with a capital, but whether to add periods to the end of each
item. This irritation of inconsistency is compounded if each item completes
a sentence begun by the text before the colon. Most professionals resolve
this issue by standardizing their practice in style guides for their
organization, field, or personal use to at least maintain some internal
consistency.

 >
Hi Isabella, I'm a regular on that newsgroup :)
I've seen Io non ho paura recently and La stanza del figlio about two
years ago. I've got the first part of La meglio gioventu; waiting for
the second part to arrive.. :) I liked both movies a lot; the first
(
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0326977
) being about a young boy in Italy
(where else?) discovering a secret in a hole in the ground. A nice
movie that reminds you of the innocense of childhood and the
corruption that seems to taint us (all?) when we grow up... La stanza
del figlio (
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0208990
) I saw some time ago
which makes my memory of it a bit less detailed. I do remember though
that it was a good, nice human drama about a family that loses the son
in an accident.
About La meglio gioventů, I've heard so many good reviews about it
that it almost impossibly can be a bad movie. A bit (but not quite)
like Novecento (for which I've been looking for a long time now).
My advice: download them if you still can and watch them. If you can
and want to let the people on that newsgroup know what you thought
about it... :)
Best regards,
ProjectR (di Olanda:))




No professional editor of my acquaintance in the UK has ever had such a
requirement ; that statement may be too uncompromising for your taste , but
it's true . If you know of any , please name them .
Mike


You might , because it's clear by now that you speak American English . I
wouldn't , because I speak UK English . I've studied and worked in this
field for forty years ,  and almost invariably an English writer would use
'quote' here . Indeed , in UK English there is a clear distinction : 'quote'
would mean repeating the actual words taken from another source (as in the
passage I was referring to) , whereas 'cite' would mean to refer to some
source in support of your argument - e.g. referring to the Chicago Manual ,
I might have written 'The authority you cite doesn't claim to apply to UK
English ' .
Mike

 period rather than a colon.
Well , if  (in addition to the two Americans , Henry James and Luke
Rhinehart , whom I mentioned earlier) a list of good English writers who
when appropriate choose to separate (sic) two sentences with a colon will
help persuade you , I'll provide one ; but it could be a very extensive list
!
Mike

 wrote in message
news:409B5EBE...@libero.it...

Unexamined habit , Mary !  As I recollect , maybe falsely , when I learnt to
type (pre-PC) I was told to leave spaces ; anyway , I always have done
because I think it looks clearer .  I did buy my first typewriter when I was
living in France for a brief spell , but I doubt if it exerted any subtle
influence on my use of it . I've afraid I've never even noticed the
difference between French and English practice . On reflection , my habit
may go back even further to when I was editing and had to proof-read a small
local magazine , and was given ancient pamphlet with guidance for
proof-readers ; this was in the Middle East , and the type was still
hand-set with tweezers , so the pamphlet may not have been the last word on
the subject , or maybe the quality of type was so poor that spaces were
essential for readability .
Mike

 but it's true . If you know of any , please name them .
That statement isn't uncompromising at all. Instead it's a valid
contribution from your experience, just as one might read from other posters
here. You're learning.

 begin with a capital letter. Otherwise it may begin with a lowercase letter.
Michael's original statement is:
"I don't see it as stylistic choice , but
ignorance of the (traditionally correct) alternative : on what stylistic
grounds would one choose to use 'consider as' rather than 'consider' +
complement ? "
and to me the material introduced by the colon in that statement is not 
more than one sentence, nor is it a formal statement, a quotation or a 
speech in dialogue, so if you want to follow TCMoS rules, "it may begin 
with a lowercase letter."
And above all, let's not lose sight of the fact that the Chicago Manual 
of Style refers to American English and it is only one source.
The Gregg Reference Manual, Ninth Edition, pretty much echoes TCMoS (ss. 
196 through 199.)
-- 
I am Joey's Cat
Un-not my address, too, if you wanna reply.

 of Style refers to American English and it is only one source.
That is exactly what I said. We should remember that there are many valid
sources and one should not *diss* other "well-educated" people just because
one doesn't know of the variety of accepted usage in the world, especially
when hundreds of thousands of examples exist.

, Tony the ice man wrote...

Right. This isn't a competition: we're here to learn from one another.
(BTW, Webster's lists "dis" with one "s")
:-)


determines actual acceptability.
And I suppose getting a million hits on "definately" means that I
should accept this as a standard alternative spelling for
"definitely."  Is "definately" appropriate for publications?
Literature, magazines, school assignments, dissertations?
Not for nothing, but the American Heritage link I provided above
states that "consider . . . as" was not standard in 1996 (their
copyright/publication date) nor was standard in the language previous
to that.  Are you saying that it has become standard since then and is
now a stylistic variant?  How can that be when there are scads of
speakers who find it ungrammatical?
-az

 speakers who find it ungrammatical?
This is a valid point. The American Heritage link is a credible source for
one perspective on the state of the language. They are, however, just one
source. Have you never read read an entry in a dictionary that seemed to you
out of date or did not completely describe to your experience of usage? Have
you never read two different dictionary entries that disagreed on standard
and substandard usage?
I would suggest to readers that they do a Google search for "consider as"
and perhaps add another word to the search to add variety to the results.
They will find a plethory of well-educated, intelligent writers who
apparently have reached a conclusion different than your own on this usage.



gee guys   if punctuation is such a problem       ignore it :-))))))
-- 
              O      __
      ___   /\     / / O  
     /__ \   | \   /  |
    O  /  \ /   \./   |       Loki
        |________ |
 

 disprefer
That's a word I've never heard before.
-- 
Mary

 pamphlet with guidance for proof-readers ;
Similar pamphlets given to authors here in Italy (e.g. Zanichelli ed.)
highly recommend no space before punctuation and one space after it.
Anyway, YMMV ;-)
 
-- 
Maria Luisa C - 08/05/04 15.30.22, here.
(please, point out my English errors)

That's a word I've never heard before.
That's because I made it up.

than is the extensive body of examples of use one finds in the real world.
The point was this:  it is not part of my grammar and don't presume to
tell me that it is.

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And yes, that is exactly what you are doing by asserting that this is
a standard stylistic variation that I have simply chosen to reject.
(A variation that linguistic literature apparently also fails to
discuss as a real-world example, I might add.  Funny given that
they'll discuss anything and the neighbor's asshole too.)

 That's because I made it up.
I thought so :-)
But perhaps you could refrain from making up words on a group for
learners of English, as it's likely to confuse them...
-- 
Mary

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Sorry.
We use it in linguistics.  I suppose it is jargon.

 they'll discuss anything and the neighbor's asshole too.)
To be honest, your grammar or your preference for usage was no concern to
me. My concern was to give Sebapop a more balanced view of how other people
might react to such usage.
I get irritated too, at usage that is outside of what I accept. For example,
(and I recognize that this is not grammar but rather word usage), I detest
the figurative use of 'literally' to mean 'virtually'. In my opinion it is
an error that should not be considered standard usage.  The problem for me
is that now dictionaries list this alternative definition of literally, even
though it means the exact opposite of the word proper!
By the way, I did a Google search to find the "consider as" citing you
mentioned in order to get the exact wording because I rememberd that it said
something about the usage being common but not yet common enough to be
considered standard. I was going to comment that other dictionaries might
decide that the criteria for 'common enough' might have been met, or that
they themselves might reach that conclusion in a new printing. In following
one of the links that resulted, mistakenly thinking I'd found the result I
wanted (I know, why didn't I just check your earlier post?), I found a
definition of another word from the American Heritage, 'suppose'. The online
dictionary definition contained 'consider as' in its description!. I thought
you'd be amused... well, not really amused... but no malice is intended.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0907100.html
PS: I was hoping that you would point out that in my previous post I made an
error in accuracy. It is probable that the common use of  'definately' is
not a typo but instead a misspelling. Let's just hope that it doesn't become
so common and accepted that it becomes an alternative spelling described in
dictionaries.

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Linguists use made up words, how ironic.

, jonny wrote...
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Yeah... it's okay for *them* to do it, but when *we* do... watch out! 
That's prezackly what I mean.     :-))
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That's prezackly what I mean.     :-))
Why isn't it okay for you to do it?
New words are invented every day.
That's how language works.
?


http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0907100.html
="To consider as a suggestion: Suppose we dine together." 
How do you propose that this bears on "I consider him as a good
doctor"?
These are two different "consider"s.  (They have different meanings.)
(The passive OE example provided above by Enrico C was more in line
with "I consider him as a good doctor.")

 Mike
I never knew language could be soooooooo complicated. Just as well
it's my mother tongue and I can take liberties with sang froid.
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I was just funnin' with you. :)
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>(10a) They consider him an embarrassment,
(10b) They consider him as (being) an embarrassment,
(10c) They consider that he is an embarrassment.
He / (be) an embarrassment constitue une prédication qui se réalise
sous
forme d'une subordonnée conjonctive en (10c) et d'une prédication
réduite
(small clause) dans les autres exemples. As, optionnel avec consider
mais nonomissible
avec un verbe au sens voisin comme regard, souligne le fait que
l'énoncé permet d'attribuer au GN2 (him) une propriété (be an
embarrassment)
en liaison avec le verbe (consider).
http://www.cercles.com/n9/delechelle.pdf
I too would shun the use of "as" in the phrase "I consider him (as) a
good doctor.
Since I have as yet found no source which relegates the omission of
"as" in this case to the category of incorrect usage, I will continue
to omit it.
I would welcome any citations of a diverse opinion.
Joe from Massachusetts

 Nope, they both sound wrong.
I'm pretty sure I've heard "kids of ten" or, at least, when I read Anna's
message "kids of ten" sounded familiar. It might be American.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

 Nope, they both sound wrong.
But "one" could say "a ten year old".
sq

 message "kids of ten" sounded familiar. It might be American.
In my ever-humble opinion, talking about one or more "kids" one would say 
"a ten-year-old kid" or "ten-year-old kids" (but not "a kid of ten" or 
kids of ten"), however, if a range of ages is meant, then "kids of ten, 
eleven and twelve" for example, would sound right.


 Who am I to argue with Van Morrison.
Well it's a marvelous night for a moondance
With the stars up above in your eyes
A fantabulous night to make romance
'Neath the cover of October skies...
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 'Neath the cover of October skies...
Per quelli che forse si domandino, non è una parola ma invece un'unione di
due parole 'fantastic' e 'fabulous'.

due parole 'fantastic' e 'fabulous'.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/library/ling008_c.html
'bye

 
Siccome sono un curioso per natura, sono andato a cercare il thread 
incriminato: avevi promesso di usare la frase come tagline, ed hai 
mantenuto la promessa! :-) ROTFL!!!
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________
Cesare G. Rossi
This time, like all time, is a very good one if we but know what to 
do with it. Ralph Waldo Emerson

 mantenuto la promessa! :-) ROTFL!!!
Sai, quando uno è scemo rimane scemo anche a distanza di tempo.
P.
-- 
Passo lento, disinvolto e spensierato degli alpini che marciano
cantando sotto le parabole successive e accanite degli shrapnels. 

 Sai, quando uno è scemo rimane scemo anche a distanza di tempo.
Autograferesti la mia copia di "L'arte della dialettica" di P. Bonardi.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'.

 message "kids of ten" sounded familiar. It might be American.
That just means people speak in abreviated form. It doesn't mean it's
correct. If it was reported in  a paper it would most likely be "kids
of ten
[years of age] blah blah." where the reporter adds in square brackets
the left out portion of speech. But previous sentences would most
likely
have supplied the fact that one is talking about age. 10 year on it's
own could even apply to a class designation, rather than age.
Teachers will refer to "Year 10" kids .
-- 
              O      __
      ___   /\     / / O  
     /__ \   | \   /  |
    O  /  \ /   \./   |       Loki
        |________ |
 

 correct.
I see. Thanks.
Bye, FB
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 Autograferesti la mia copia di "L'arte della dialettica" di P. Bonardi.
No. Ma se vuoi ti posso rivendere la tua copia di "I miei primi 
vent'anni: come scatenare l'orticaria nei miei interlocutori", 
F.Balducci & Fam.
P.
--  
"Me lo dici tutte le volte che hai il doppio dei miei anni, e allora? 
Se la matematica non č un'opinione, avrai sempre il doppio dei miei 
anni, e allora?" (FB su it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)


 F.Balducci & Fam.
Se è mia non me la rivendi, non trovi?
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)