Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Great agita

 From the Washington Post, April 15, 2018:
 
"Comey’s book, copies of which were obtained by news outlets and 
reviewed last week, has caused great agita for Trump."
 
Apparently, this Italian-Americanism has migrated out of it's place of 
birth, New York City and the tri-state area, and has found a place in a 
mainstream news publication in Washington D.C.
 
Keep on the lookout for skeeve the verb, or skeevy the adjective, to 
arrive. It's already popping up in the oddest places.
 
 

 arrive. It's already popping up in the oddest places.
 
Skeeve da schifo è simpatico :-)
g
 
 
 
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 E' una storpiatura per acidità o cosa?
 
agitazione (credo)
 
Kiuhnm

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In tal caso non ci sarebbe bisogno di scomodare gli italo-americani, 
visto che esiste l'inglese agitation (sempre dal latino, ovvio).
Per urban dictionary agita avrebbe a che fare con l'acidità di stomaco 
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=agita
 
Resta una parola senza senso in italiano. Invece per gli italo-americani?


 Resta una parola senza senso in italiano. Invece per gli italo-americani?
 
Rimango dell'idea che venga da "agitazione" e non da "acidità". 
L'agitazione e l'ansia possono comportare acidità di stomaco ed ecco la 
connessione, secondo me.
 
Kiuhnm

 connessione, secondo me.
 
Per quanto vale, Webster dice:
 
Judging by its spelling and meaning, you might think that "agita" is 
simply a shortened version of "agitation," but that's not the case. Both 
"agitation" and the verb "agitate" derive from Latin agere ("to drive"). 
"Agita," which first appeared in American English in the early 1980s, 
comes from a dialectical pronunciation of the Italian word acido, 
meaning "heartburn" or "acid," from Latin acidus. ("Agita" is also 
occasionally used in English with the meaning "heartburn.") For a while 
the word's usage was limited to New York City and surrounding regions, 
but the word became more widespread in the mid-90s.
 
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agita
 
 

 
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agita
 
 
Buono a sapersi. Anche skeev è abbastanza irriconoscibile per me.
 
Kiuhnm

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Sì, il fenomeno dell'assimilazione di parole in inglese americano dai 
dialetti italiani è interessante. Certamente la stessa cosa è successo 
per yiddish e altre lingue degli immigranti.
 
Non mi ricordo a quale età mi sono accorto che queste parole non erano 
inglese standard.

 Keep on the lookout for skeeve the verb, or skeevy the adjective
 
viene da "schifare", non male :-)
 
 
 
-- 
la cricca dei giacobini (C) M.G.

 viene da "schifare", non male :-)
 
Sì, ma l'uso ha cambiato.
It's so dirty, I skeeve that place.
 
 

 No, dovrei detto che la pronuncia è italiana.
 
sisi poi ho letto
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
*lo yiddish, *immigrati
 
I wonder what dialect the Webster is referring to though. I can't find 
any traces of "agita" in mine, so I assume it must come from another 
southern dialect.
I watched all the episodes of The Sopranos last year and it was very 
interesting as far as language goes (other than the rest). The 
supposedly Italian words they use, such as "goomar", "gabatost", 
"capegoul", "mauppin" can be easily traced back to the dialect Tony 
Soprano's granfather spoke when he reached the shore of Ellis Island.


*grandfather
 
I can confirm that "agita" was a common word in my Italian-American 
family which featured Sicilian and Campanian grandparents who entered 
the U.S. through Ellis Island. The first generation Americans of my 
family, like many others in the Tri-State area, married 
Italian-Americans who originated from other regions of Italy. So, at 
family gatherings, when adult family members spoke this "language" that 
was called "Italian, and that I as a second-generation American kid 
didn't understand, it was actually a conglomeration of many Southern 
Italian dialects. I can remember discussions among family members about 
how different members of the family used different terms to refer to the 
same item, like a dish towel. No one spoke what we know as Italian today.
 
For most of my growing-up our family would visit "relatives" who were 
actually "goombahs" [cumpari (siciliano) o compare italiano)] and not 
blood relations, and who I knew as "Zifilipp," and "Zimarie." It wasn't 
until I reached young adulthood that I realized their names were Filippo 
and Maria, and we had been taught to address them with "zi'" before 
their names as a show of respect for elder close friends.
 
When the son of a relative who still lived in Italy visited his 
great-aunt, my grandmother, in the U.S., they had to communicate in the 
few broken English phrases that my grandmother knew because her 19th 
century dialect was too difficult for the young Italian from Rome to 
understand.
 
Did you notice that Tony Soprano's boat was named the "Stugots?"
 

 
 
That still cracks me up :D
 

 part of the country, even the younger use it to address each other.
 
I evidently meant prefix instead of suffix. :)


That reminds me of the character Reggie in the original British comedy 
The Fall and Fise of Reginald Perrin, who would say "whenever I say 
earwig I mean..." and fill in the blank for the word he would replace 
with the out of context "earwig."
 
By the way, one would typically say "I obviously meant..." "Evidently" 
means that given circumstantial or other apparent evidence one can draw 
a particular conclusion. It sounds odd here because it sounds like 
you're making a guess about your own motives.

 connessione, secondo me.
 
Alla fine sembra essere una fusione tra agitazione e acidità in quel mix 
di dialetti meridionali che fu New York ai tempi dell'emigrazione 
biblica dal sud Italia (chissà perché dopo l'unificazione forzata i 
meridionali fuggirono in massa in tutto il mondo, io un'idea ce l'ho) 
http://areyoureallyinterested.blogspot.it/2006/03/agita.html
 


 you're making a guess about your own motives.
 
Thank you :)
 

 How did they call the dish towel by the way? Mauppin? Mantesino? Pezz?
 
I remember "mopina" because to my ears at the time it sounded like the 
English "mop." I also remember a sound similar to straccio which I 
understand now is the Italian for "rag." This all occurred long before I 
began to study Italian and it was too long ago to remember more than 
impressions. Allora, la memoria mi tradisce.
 
The word "agita" might have just been recognizable enough as agitazione 
or acidità in a variety of dialects to catch on as a common term among 
Italian-Americans of different origins who were trying to communicate 
with each other. In fact there were English words spoken and so 
consistently mispronounced that I believed they were "Italian" words 
until I became more conscious about language.

 you're making a guess about your own motives.
 
Some people use "evidentemente" in Italian, with the same meaning!
By that they mean that there's enough evidence for everyone to conclude 
that they meant to say something else. I prefer "ovviamente" even in 
Italian.
 
Kiuhnm

 I can find no traces...
 
And what about "both"? I'd use "neither...nor". Is that OK?
 
Kiuhnm

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I'm not sure what you're asking relative to the double negative issue 
here, but this page should answer your question.
https://www.thoughtco.com/both-and-neither-nor-either-or-1210736
 
 
 

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I'll be more explicit. Which one of the following sentences are correct? 
Also, do they mean the same thing?
 
1. I can find traces of it in neither this nor that.
2. I can't find any traces of it in either this or that.
3. I can't find any traces of it in both this and that.
 
Kiuhnm

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The first two are correct. The third sentence may confuse people because 
of its unusual construction and I would consider it substandard usage. 
There are no differences in meaning.
 

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One last question. Are "not...any" and "no" equivalent? For instance:
   2a. I can't find any traces of it in either this or that.
   2b. I can find no traces of it in either this or that.
 
Kiuhnm

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Yes, they are equivalent. You man encounter some who would quibble about 
the plural and prefer "I can't find any trace..." and "I can find no 
trace..." but in my opinion all are acceptable.
 


Thanks, Tony!
 
Kiuhnm

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As an Italian man who has always lived in Northern Italy, I was so moved
(i.e. emotionally touched) to read your messagge regarding the events of
these Italian families who entered US through Ellis Island a long time
ago.
Zifilipp and Zimaria sound funny to me, because I know that in Southern
Italian it's common to use them as a contraction of "Zio Filippo" and
"Zia Maria", where Zio and Zia mean Uncle and Aunt, respectively. I
suspect however that they used Zio and Zia even if there wasn't blood
relation but only as a show of respect, as you said afterwards.
The word "goombahs" made me laughing, because it is clearly the American
transformation of the Southern Italian word "cumpa" who, in turn, is the
dialect contraction of  "compari" , i.e "friends". In fact, the English
pronunciation of "goombahs" is very similar to the Italian pronunciation
of  "cumpa".
Regarding "Stugots" I'm still laughing out loud ;-)

 Regarding "Stugots" I'm still laughing out loud ;-)
 
Thank you. I am always a little reticent when writing personal 
recollections in this newsgroup (who cares?), especially regarding vague 
memories from my childhood, but your appreciation lightens that reluctance.
 
Like many descendants of immigrants who escaped "la miseria," I am 
fiercely proud of my family and how they straddled two cultures to make 
a good life for themselves despite hardship and disadvantage, and 
against a prejudice that many forget existed. Now, I enjoy every 
advantage that education and social position can offer, but I have 
retained an understanding of how poorly educated (and even illiterate) 
people can have a character, intelligence, and emotional sophistication, 
if mixed with some unpleasant human foibles, that make it easy for me to 
dismiss those who harbor prejudice or consider themselves better, as 
ignorant in a fundamental way about the human condition.
 
I've allowed myself the luxury of writing in English for several days 
now. Let me return to the topic of this newsgroup, and offer you some 
corrections.
 
*message*
*made me laugh*
*the word..., which, in turn*


Correzione: *an understanding... that makes it easy*
 
A volte, quando ci sono troppe parole tra il soggetto della proposizione 
e il verbo, si sbaglia la concordanza anche in inglese.
 

 *the word..., which, in turn*
 
Thank you. 

 until I became more conscious about language.
 
This is a very likely explaination.

 ignorant in a fundamental way about the human condition.
 
That's a great lesson. And it saddens me to hear that that prejudice 
still exists sometimes.

 ignorant in a fundamental way about the human condition.
 
Is still there any kind of prejudice by wasps against italo-americans today?


 This is a very likely explaination.
 
explain loses the 'i' in explanation.
 
Kiuhnm

 today?
 
Qualunque tipo? Certo, ma c'è sempre la pregiudizia, non solamente 
contra gli italo-americani. E c'è sempre la gente tollerante, anche i WASP.
 
Naturalmente dipende se parliamo della città o del villaggio, del New 
York o dell'Alabama. Qualche persona che abita nel piccolo villaggio 
rurale dell'Alabana non vede mai uno italo-americano di persona, e forse 
solamente nei film che trattano della Cosa Nostra.
 
Direi che gli italo-americani non sono ancora il bersaglio della 
pregiudizia. Ci sono altri che sembrano essere la minaccia più grande ai 
WASP. Più pertinente alla persona di idee ristrette sarebbe quanto scura 
sia la pelle, italo-americano o no.
 
Naturalmente la reputazione della mafia persiste, specialmente se si ha 
un accento della regione Tri-State, o se si comporta nella maniera 
guappo e si porta i soldi nel rotolo, avvolto nel elastico. Altre 
persone amano tutte cose dell'Italia, anche i suoi emigrati.