Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Ogni volta

Ciao, vorrei sapere se in questo tipo di frase va bene l'utilizzo del 
*will* per esprimere abitudine: --Ogni volta che parlo con mia madre di 
andare all'estero magari per lavorare e fare esperienza, lei si arrabbia 
e mi dice di rimanere a casa!!-- 
--any/each time I talk with my mum about me/my going abroad in order to 
get a job as well as to see life, she *will* get upset and tell me not 
to think about it--
Sicuramente la traduzione in Inglese non è il massimo :-) ma spero 
almeno di non aver toppato il *will* !

 wrote in message 
news:ooo-A90CDC.2...@twister1.tin.it...

Sorry , but 'Whenever I talk to my mum about ....she GETS upset ...'
Ma cosa significa 'toppato'? ('toppare'??)
Mike 

 E' gergale per "sbagliare"
Per Mike: MOLTO gergale e abbastanza recente. Molte persone di una
certa eta' non ne capiscono il significato (alcuni miei parenti
sessantenni non lo sapevano).
Consigliabile usarla solo con ragazzi o con persone giovani in contesti
molto informali.
Io non la uso mai.

 Per Mike: MOLTO gergale e abbastanza recente.
Actually it's just Italian:
QUOTE (
www.demauroparavia.it/_toppare
)
top|pà|re
v.intr. e tr. (io tòppo)
1 v.intr. (avere) CO colloq., commettere un grossolano errore; sbagliare,
fallire | fare una brutta figura 
UNQUOTE
If dictionaries list it, it can't be too recent. I don't even think it's
very "young". Just informal.
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Hey, Mr. Gilmore. Best wish... Congrat... Nice suit!"
(Gilmore Girls - 513)

 Sorry , but 'Whenever I talk to my mum about ....she GETS upset ...'
Why is "will" wrong in this case?
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
"The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live, that is what I mean—so
Bunbury died."
"He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

 almeno di non aver toppato il *will* !
Nemmeno in italiano diresti "ogni volta che chiedo a mia mamma di 
mandarmi all'estero, lei si agiterà". Diresti "ogni volta che chiedo a 
mia mamma di mandarmi all'estero, lei si agita".
Insomma, ti sei inutilmente complicato la vita :-)
Si può usare will per esprimere un'abitudine, es. "I will listen to rock 
music for hours", ma il tuo esempio a me pare diverso.
Tabhall

 music for hours", ma il tuo esempio a me pare diverso.
Evidentemente sì, ma perché? Al passato? "Whenever I was late, my mother
would scold me and say she would never let me go out at night ever again".
Si può dire? Credo di sì. E al presente? "Whenever I'm late, my mother will
scold me and say she will never...". Sbagliato?
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."



First , a question : do the asterisks around 'will' indicate that it is
stressed ? I had assumed , perhaps carelessly , that they were simply
picking out 'will' as the focus of attention of the question ; I suppose I
assumed this because ' she *will* [stressed] get upset' sounds odd -
'getting upset' being an involuntary reaction normally evoking sympathy .
The point is that 'he *will* do something' does indeed suggest habitual
behaviour - but it also suggests something more , which is annoyance with
that behaviour ; looking at the Italian , 'lei si arrabbia' , (interpreting
it as 'she gets into a temper') I can see that's perhaps what was in fact
intended - but does 'si arrabbia' also mean 'she gets upset' , and would it
then have that same implication ? To say ,'Every time I talk to my mother
about ... , she *will* fly into a temper and tell me not to talk nonsense'
might (possibly) sound OK - the '*will*' always suggests the idea of a 
wilful
persistence in unreasonable behaviour , and parental dismissal without
discussion of their offspring's ideas has no doubt been a source of
annoyance since time began ; but when you're talking about a mother feeling
unhappy ('upset') at the idea of her son leaving home to live abroad , the
implications of '*will*' seem distinctly odd (to me) .
Also , the idea of the habitual is here already given by the words 'Every
time/whenever' - what need would there be for any other device to indicate
the same thing ? Even if 'will' is stressed to suggest annoyance at habitual
wilful behaviour , it still sounds a bit odd when used with 'whenever' . A
more natural usage of this '*will*' is something like 'I love my mother ,
but she will treat me as if I were still a ten-year-old.' 'I hope I'm not 
sat next to John - he will go on about politics all the time , and it bores 
me rigid .'
I don't know whether my explanation answers the question satisfactorily ; 
but in any case  the original version is something that I would never say in 
English , and wouldn't expect to hear , either (tho' others perhaps may 
disagree ?) .
Mike


Your examples are very persuasive , FB ; the past tense example certainly 
sounds fine ; I don't think I'm any longer bold enough to say 'sbagliato' 
about the second example , and yet ... it does still sound rather odd to me 
. Perhaps a few other native speakers will offer a view .
Mike 

 Mike
Giovanni, do you still want to know what "understatement" is? (smiling
face)
Bye, FB
-- 
"What meaning of this, Mitter Twain?" "I will tell you, Mr Wang, if you can
tell me why a man who possesses one of the most brilliant minds of this
century can't say his prepositions or articles"
(Murder by Death)

 I don't know whether my explanation answers the question satisfactorily ; 
Quite. Thank you.


 Che resonà!, si dice dalle mie parti. 
Anche dalle mie parti si dice più o meno così :-)
  Hai ovviamente ragione, avevo solo pensato al fatto che è inutile 
appunto complicarsi la vita: se so per certo che una struttura funziona 
pari pari trasportata dalla mia lingua madre, non vedo perchè infognarmi 
in una costruzione particolare che non so se corretta o meno.
Ho pensato, non so se a ragione, che Andry abbia voluto un po'strafare, 
nel tentativo di scrivere in modo ricercato.
Quel particolare uso di will è riportato dai vocabolari,però io 
sinceramente come te sono perplessa, non mi pare si usi. Ma io sono solo 
un'appassionata a tempo perso, ci vorrebbe la risposta di un madrelingua.
Saluti
Tabhall