Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Received pronunciations

This morning I made my first year students (14-year-olds) listen to the
tape which accompanies Opportunities (Longman), where there were three
students describing themselves: one was Brazilian, one was Australian,
one was South-African. I reproduced and made them notice the
differences between the British received pronunciation (e.g. that of
the instructions on the cassette) and some vowel sounds used by the
Australian and South-African students. I explained (very simply) what
is meant by "British received pronunciation" or Queen's English - a
standard which is not really "native" to any particular area but rather
acquired through education or social class - much like the Italian you
would learn at elocution classes.
But now I want to ask you, is there anything like an American received
pronunciation? There have been several posts arguing about how BEn is
better / worse, easier / more difficult than Am En, but what do we
compare? Have you ever seen Brother Where Art Thou in English? Or even
Eastenders... (am I not a real addict?)
I know, there are lots of characteristics that make American English
sound American, but is there anything that resembles Oxford English,
anything that a British actor would have to use in an American movie,
much like what G Paltrow did for Emma and Sliding Doors (where she was
so perfect to make me feel she was TOO perfect, I much preferred J
Hannah's nice and real Scottish accent) ? Or do British actors have to
adapt to the fictional origin of the character (for example J Northan
in Happy, Texas had a heavy southern accent)?
Thanks
Ciao
Claudia

 anything that a British actor would have to use in an American movie,
You can find something here:
http://www.bartleby.com/185/29.html
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

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There are several characters on American TV who speak with "American"
accents on their TV shows, but who revert to their Australian or
British accents when they are off-camera. The best example of this is
the British actor Hugh Laurie, the star of the Fox TV series "House".
I don't think that Laurie could carry on a normal conversation in an
"American" accent. He obviously carefully memorizes the dialogue for
each show, and probably has an American speech coach who goes over the
dialogue for each show with him.
There is no standard pronunciation in the United States which is even
remotely comparable to the "BBC English" of the United Kingdom. Radio
and TV schools in the US teach the pronunciation of the Midwest
(Minneapolis, Chicago, and a few other places) because most Americans
perceive the speech pattern of this area to be without an accent. This
is merely one of four or five regional accents, and it is thought by
some to be worthy of imitation, much as the Florentine or Roman
accents are often revered, but seldom embraced, by the majority of
Italians. The average child in the average school in the US does not
learn the "Midwestern" accent, but rather a localized accent.
In school, we are taught to avoid what are perceived to be the
undesirable traits of our local accent, rather than to imitate some
accent which is held up as a model.
At one time, the English spoken by the announcers on the North
American Service of Radio Moscow was devoid of all regional
characteristics of North American English, and as such seemed sterile
and lifeless. It was very easy to identify Radio Moscow when scanning
the radio dial because of this artificial accent.
I think that you will find very few authorities who would support the
idea that there exists a true "General American" accent. When you
watch a film set in New York, Chicago, Atlanta, or Los Angeles, the
accents of the educated people seem very similar, but certain local
elements in the speech of the characters identifies the geographic
origin of the speakers.
Many actors and actresses (Reese Witherspoon is a good example) have
been coached to eliminate most traces of their local accents. Reese
Witherspoon grew up speaking with a "Southern" accent, and she can
revert to it when she goes back home.
In certain films, such as "Fargo", the cast is coached in some of the
elements of a local accent - in this case, the accent of North Dakota
and Minnesota. The effect is comical for Americans, but I don't know
if Italians would notice the subtle quirks in the pronunciation.
Similarly, it is obvious when listening to most Italians what their
geographical origin is. Giovanna Vaccaro, who is the instructor for
the BBC "Italian Steps" Italian language course, is from the province
of Vicenza, and her accent has some elements of the Veneto in it, but
it is still a good Italian accent.
Since I learned Italian in Vicenza, I would imagine that I share some
of these traits.
Joe from Massachusetts

 of these traits.
I can't remember who said that the "stadard Italian accent" is spoken in 
Italy exclusively by dubbers, and I agree. The flipside of the issue is that 
dubbers themselves revert to their original accent as soon as they're 
off-duty, since they probably perceive that speech pattern as fake and 
overacted to be used in a normal conversation.

 if Italians would notice the subtle quirks in the pronunciation.
L'effetto e' comico perche' l'accento del Minnesota e' genericamente
percepito come "divertente" (un po' come l'accento emiliano-romagnolo in
italiano) o perche' gli attori in realta' parlano male e risultano
involontariamente divertenti?
E dato che si parla di pronunce regionali, esiste in US una regione in cui
le S sono particolarmente marcate? (mi pare di ricordare Brad Pitt in
"Kalifornia" con una S tipo Don Camillo...)
 grazie
ciao 
Weiss
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 overacted to be used in a normal conversation.
E' una buona considerazione, in particolare i romani tornano al loro
accento.
A mio parere quelli che parlano "meglio" sono quelli di Prato e dintorni
ma anche i fiorentini, se parlano senza aspirate.
Mi e' capitato di sentire magari il benzinaio o il giornalaio  di una
sperduta localita' dell'Appennino toscano, parlare come doppiatori e
l'effetto era abbastanza curioso.


 (...)
Thanks Joe for a very comprehensive post!
I wish I could hear your accent in Italian! It was very funny once: I
was in the car with a Welsh guy whom i spoke English too and he
suddenly started swearing in perfect romanesco... he had lived in Rome
for a couple of years and had learnt to drive there...
Claudia

 Claudia
..azz... for "too" read "to".
:-O
Claudia

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I learned two things in Vicenza - the Italian language, and how to
drive a jeep.
Later I "perfected" both my Italian and my driving in Naples. I don't
know if I could drive in Naples now, what with the new "Codice
Stradale" and people actually driving carefully and courteously. Old
habits die hard.
I never really learned much of either dialect, but I did learn quite a
few "bestemmie" in Vicenza.
Lately I have been studying the Mosconi video, in case I should decide
to pay a return visit to the Veneto.
Joe from Massachusetts

 habits die hard.
Um... there must be something I still don't know... 

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When I was in Vicenza, I knew the instructors at a private language
school. One of them was an Englishman, and he was very popular with
his students. He had me read to his students, so that they could hear
that my American accent was intelligible and not all that unpleasant.
I gathered that most Italian teachers try to teach the British
pronunciation in the schools, but for some reason, most of the
Italians I knew who spoke English spoke with an accent which was
neither British nor American. Even the students of my English friend
spoke with this intermediate accent. Many of my Italian acquaintances
seemed to think the British pronunciation was a little pretentious,
but also that the American pronunciation seemed a little careless. It
may well be that Italians who study English exclusively under the
tutelage of native (British) English speakers end up speaking
differently than those who study exclusively under the guidance of
native Italian speakers - and those who study exclusively under the
guidance of native American speakers would have even another variation
of the English accent.
If I were teaching an English class to Italians, I would have to teach
them my accent, whether I wanted to or not.
I can't imagine trying to teach Italians a British accent which I
don't speak myself.
When I arrived in Vicenza, I didn't know a word of Italian. My first
contacts were with Italian military personnel whom I met at the
American USO club in Vicenza, which at that time was open to both
Italian and American military personnel. I carried a little Collins
dictionary with me, and was always asking "Come si dice?". Of course,
since my friends were Sicilians, Neapolitans, Romans, Ferrarans,
Venetians, etc., I got slightly different answers, depending upon whom
I asked. Somehow, my brain fixated upon some intermediate accent, and
determined that to be the "correct" accent for me. Of course, since I
was in Vicenza, I'm sure that a lot of the Veneto accent rubbed off on
me. Later, I spent three years in Naples, and I'm sure that changed my
accent somewhat, although I couldn't cite you any examples.
Even my English accent is not the same as it was when I was in High
School in New York, after having spent years in Europe, Asia, Texas,.
Georgia, and Kansas, surrounded by people from many different areas
with many different accents.
Joe from Massachusetts

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I was serious about the Codice Stradale, but the rest....
Joe from Massachusetts

 with many different accents.
There some cross-posting concerning accents these past few days and I
like it.
My sister, who has been living in California for 20 years, is 50 and
took the CPE 30 years ago after more than serveral holidays in Oxford /
London, sounds more Italian and makes more grammar mistakes than I do.
My brother in law, who was born in Market Bosworth (the site of "my
kingdom for a horse"), educated in Oxford and who moved to CA 25 years
ago, has a slight American accent, which he denies but which I can
perceive, though it's confined to a certain nasal quality of some
vowels and to some "r" sounds. 
How fascinating!
Claudia

 to pay a return visit to the Veneto.
Were you in the Army? When have you been here?
Debbie

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Yes I was in the Army. I was in Vicenza, and later in Naples, before
you were born. :>)
Have you been following the story of the Americans and the Aeroporto
Dal Molin in Vicenza?
Joe from Massachusetts

 Joe from Massachusetts
Of course, everybody is talking about it.
Debbie

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Is that everyone in Italy, or just everyone in the Veneto?
Joe from Massachusetts

 Joe from Massachusetts
Just everyone in Vicenza. I never heard about it on the news, just the
local one talks about it. Debbie

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Ostregheta, you're a magnagato!?
When I was in Vicenza, conditions were quite different from what they
are now.
The base commander at Ederle was a Colonel, and not a General, as he
is now.
The American Service Club was not in the Caserma Ederle as it is now.
It was located on the Corso Palladio, in a building known at the time
as the Fiat building. It was open to both American and Italian
military personnel, so I met many Italian military from the Aeroporto
Dal Molin and from the Caserma Chinotto. They accelerated my learning
the Italian language. When they were discharged, I visited many of
them in Catania, Naples, Rome, Ferrara, Venice, and places in between.
The draft was still in effect when I was in Vicenza, so there were
quite a few college graduates among the American forces there. Still,
very few of the Americans ever learned Italian. I was the only person
in my unit of about 300 men who spoke Italian fluently. Of course,
there were a few Italian-Americans who spoke some Italian which they
had learned from their families. You probably read last year about the
thesis which Chiara Menegehello of Thiene wrote for her studies at the
University of Udine, which explored why the American community is so
isolated from the Italian community. Maybe now that Rosetta Stone has
been made available on-line to all Army personnel, there will be more
Americans studying Italian (if they are not asked to leave Vicenza).
When we went on maneuvers, we always deployed along the Piave, the
Italians from Chinotto with the Honest John Rocket and the Americans
from Ederle with the Corporal Missile. Now the mission of Setaf has
changed.
The Italian Air Force has abandoned Dal Molin, and the airport has
been deemed unprofitable for use as a civil airport. It's too bad they
couldn't have worked out some kind of joint use, such as at Napoli
Capodichino.
I try to read the Giornale di Vicenza every day. Usually, there is
very little mention of the Americans at Ederle, unless someone dies in
Afghanistan or Iraq, but for the last two or three months there have
been many articles every day about the Americans and Ederle and Dal
Molin.
I was very impressed by how the Giornale di Vicenza reported on the
American casualties from Ederle who died in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
They wrote about them quasi come se fossero vicentini.
Whether or not the Americans should remain in Vicenza is not for me to
say, but even though I spent more time in Naples than in Vicenza, I
will always remember the time I spent there, where the people treated
me quasi come se fossi magnagato.
Joe from Massachusetts

 Whether or not the Americans should remain in Vicenza
There are so many rumors around... I'm pretty sure they will remain
here. Do you know they will build a new Villaggio? And it's sound like
it will be huge!
Debbie


In addition to S&S, I always liked the International Herald Tribune.
The Stars and Stripes had one article about Dal Molin a few months
ago.
Joe from Massachusetts

 on-line?
I read something about it a while ago, but I never heard anybody
mention it. 
Debbie

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http://usarmy.rosettastone.com/
Joe from Massachusetts