Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: I trust you not! ;P

Too lazy to look up a grammar..., can anyone tell me if it's an acceptable
expression?
I mean, is it correct to form the negative putting the 'not' particle at the
end of the clause instead of saying "I don't...."?
And..., please, what's the difference among 'clause', 'phrase' and
'utterance'?
Sorry to bother you for this, but I'm pretty confused.
U.U.

 'utterance'?
Add "sentence" to them. (smiling face)
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 end of the clause instead of saying "I don't...."?
I think it's not wrong, but it's unusual. Maybe it gives a particular
[archaic?] flavour to the sentence?

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:12:20 +0200, Uonder Uoman wrote:
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I think, as others have said, that it's an antiquated syntax. Nowadays it's
usually only heard in set expressions such as "I know not" and (very
popular these days): "I think not" but this latter is taken mostly as a
light-hearted phrase.
"Will you go out with him again?"
"I think NOT!"
In the early days of late-night TV one of the first hosts of The Tonight
Show was a man named Jack Paar. He began using the expression "I kid you
not." It caught on, and I think that may have been the revival of that
syntax in other expressions, mainly "I think not."
You can use similar expressions in casual conversation; just be aware that
there's a bit or irony or humor in them.
A clause is part of a sentence (Independent - which can stand on its own -
or dependent - which cannot)
The house I'm buying is too far from the city, which is why I need to buy a
car.
The house I'm buying is too far from the city, -- Independent clause.
which is why I need to buy a car. -- Dependent clause (can't stand on its
own.)
A phrase is just a combination of words (I think) such as "the way you look
tonight." It doesn't necessarily complete a thought, and isn't quite a
sentence.
An utterance is anything spoken aloud.
Those are my (admittedly non-professional) definitions.
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 "I think NOT!"
Are you sure it's the same thing? I daresay "I think not" is like "I hope
not" (the Italian "spero di no", which is not equivalent to "non spero").
With "to hope" that structure is compulsory, because you cannot say "I
don't hope so", which you can with "to think", but then both structures ("I
think not" and "I don't think so") are acceptable, though the latter is
much more used.
In brief, in my opinion "I think not" can be intended as "I don't think"
(old form) or as "I think (<== positive verb form) not":
I doubt not this is vvery "incasinato".
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 I doubt not this is vvery "incasinato".
No, one wouldn't say "I don't hope so", but, rather "I hope not." What I
was trying to express was the slangy quality of "I <verb> not" other than
in antiquated expressions. (Although "I think not" has become so common
it's not really considered slangy any more.) The emphasis is almost always
on the "NOT!" -- maybe a throwback to SNL's quips of the sort: "I really
like working hard. NOT!"
And once again, I'm going to bang my head against the wall, for relief. :)


 And once again, I'm going to bang my head against the wall, for relief. :)
Then you'd stopped? (witty face)
* Don't think I can't hear you laughing on this side of the pond.
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 2) - I think not you are stupid.
I have not heard, do not hear, and will never hear anyone make a statement
like the above. (And not just because I am stupid.) ;)
Even "I hope not" would not be followed by anything. You would not say, for
example, "I hope not you will catch my cold."
The examples I was giving were expressions complete in themselves, not
parts of sentences.
I think not <period>
I hope not <period>
I kid you not <exclamation mark>
<bang> <bang> <bang> <bang> <bang> <bang> <bang> <bang> :0
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 like the above. (And not just because I am stupid.) ;)
I know: that's why I don't think "I think not" (used as an expression
complete in itself) is a negative verb form (in which case it would be
slangy or unusual), but rather a positive verb form, "I think", plus "not",
which, I suppose, stands for the negation of the concept expressed before.
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 which, I suppose, stands for the negation of the concept expressed before.
Yes, that's exactly right. It's an affirmative verb but it expresses a
negative concept.
Yea, verily, thou art right yet again.
Let's sum up, then: I think not, I think, is not negative. Not that I think
I think is not positive, but that its seeming opposite is, in fact, not.
Therefore, when I say I think not I mean not I don't think, I think. At
least I don't think so.
8-P
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 'utterance'?
How about looking them up in a dictionary? Are you too lazy for that, too?
Actually I'm not too lazy and it interests me to refresh my memory, so you
lucked out.
Clause: A syntactic construction containing a subject and predicate and
forming part of a sentence or constituting a whole simple sentence.
Phrase: A sequence of two or more words arranged in a grammatical
construction and acting as a unit in a sentence.
Utterance: An audible vocal expression.

 the full effect.
The specific expression "I trust you not" is not standard, but it's far
from uncommon. In fact, that syntax has become very popular in the past
15-20 years, with various verbs: kid, think, like. (The last two wouldn't
include "you" but it's the syntax I'm referring to.)
The original expression "I kid you not." comes from the late 50s.
I believe it would be far from unusual to hear someome use the expression
"I trust you not," at least not around here.
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 "I trust you not," at least not around here.
That statement surprises me. I can't recall having heard in recent years
anyone playing with and modifying the 'I kid you not' expression from the
50's. I have, however, heard 'I think not' on occassion. Despite having
heard these two specific expressions, I can't say that I've heard people
create variations on the expression. On the other hand, I've often heard
kids playing with the Mike Myers expression, although the use is
falling-off.

There's also a fairly recent idiom, at least in the UK, of adding "not"
to negate the preceding sentence, e.g.:
"I think that's really interesting. Not."
-- 
Mary

 "I think that's really interesting. Not."
That sounds like the expression popularized by Mike Myers. Are you sure the
idiom is different or is it just someone deciding to punctuate the written
version differently?

 like it not!' (unless they were imitating Mike Myers).
I have to respectfully disagree. There are two concepts here, the Mike
Meyers "<Statement> Not!" (which is "new" in comparison) and the "I <verb>
(you) not," which has been around for some 40 years, and originated with
Jack Paar.
This may sound apocryphal, but last night I was at a neighborhood Bingo
game, and one of the players complained (jokingly) that the caller was
faking the numbers. When the caller proclaimed his honesty, the first guy
said "I trust you not!" :)
In NYC anyway, this type of construction is not uncommon; it seems to be
having a rebirth. Where are you located, that you don't hear it, or that it
seems foreign to you?
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I agree. This is definitely the Mike Meyers version.
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 said "I trust you not!" :)
The believing is in the hearing. It does seem rather convenient that this
very phrase was uttered just last night, but life has an odd way of
introducing those coincidences. Perhaps it is a local phenomenon...
especially prevalent in bingo halls? I'll look for it to seep into popular
media.

 media.
LOL. Funny thing is, it's the first time I've ever played Bingo outside of
home. (Also, during the same session, I heard someone say "I think not." I
tell you, it's a phenomenon! :)
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I didn't realise that; I've only seen one of the Austin Powers films,
and it was dubbed into Italian (it was terrible...).
I've seen the expression on British talkboards, and possibly newspapers,
punctuated as I typed it.
-- 
Mary

 ha scritto nel
messaggio news:66g1dct3vtbx.1xf5samkug1aj$.dlg@40tude.net...
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Thanks very very much and... just for curiosity, very is "around here"
exactly? :-)
Have a pleasant week everyone!

 lucked out.
Of course I'm lazy for that too! ;D)) Actually I read and re-read those
(bloody) (sorry) definitions in the years; I think I asked because I wanted
other kinds of definition (e.g. in... "words of yours") (thanks Joey DoWop
Dee) but mostly, I wanted to know if I can use those words regardless, or at
least, as a near-synonym for "sentence", that's all. (I mean, I get sick to
read the word 'sentence' in every 'sentence' I have to write, so I try to
use some other word with a similar meaning, regardless of its technical
meaning..., I'm crazy, I know).

 exactly? :-)
In this area; around this location.
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 In this area; around this location.
How stupid of me!!! "where is" not "very is"... O________O
(NYC?)

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OH. How stupid of *me* ... <doh>
Yes, New York City, Manhattan, Murray Hill.
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 meaning..., I'm crazy, I know).
Then, you might consider writing on other themes. If that's impractical,
remember that the word 'sentence' has a particular grammatical meaning. The
word 'clause' also has a particular grammatical meaning and you cannot use
it in the place of 'sentence'. Although 'phrase' typically refers to a
string of a few words, you can use the word in an informal way if you're
referring to a short sentence. The word 'utterance' always refers to a
voiced sound but the meaning can be stretched to refer to an entire voiced
sentence. There may be some situations where you can use the word statement,
comment, remark, or expression in the place of sentence.

 'utterance'?
As nobody else seems to have mentioned it, can I just point out that you
should say "what's the difference *between*..."
-- 
Mary

"Mary Cassidy" <ma...@invalid.invalid> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:410E9E86...@invalid.invalid...
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Oops... yes, that's right. Thank you! :-)
U.U.

 ha scritto nel
messaggio news:2n7gchF...@uni-berlin.de...
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Yeah, I think you're absolutely right..., thank you! :-)

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Yeah, thanks, Mary. A classic example of not seeing the forest for the
trees.
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