Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Unusual word ordering

Yesterday I was translating Vecchioni's song "Voglio una donna" (I want a woman) and I came up against a problem concerning word ordering. 
 
In texts like songs or poems word ordering is important: in translation, one would like to preserve not only meaning, but also rhythm and structure. When going from a language with relatively free word ordering (like Italian) to one that nearly always prescribes an SVO ordering (like English) this task can prove difficult.
 
My doubt can be shown by the two lines:
 
"Prendila te quella col cervello
 Che s'innamori di te quella che fa carriera"
 
The matter of discussion is "women", and two kinds of women are cited at the end of each line. The challenge here is to keep those elements at the end of the line in an English translation as well: however, while in the first line the woman is the object of the sentence, in the second line she is the subject. Having a subject at the end of a sentence in English is much more unusual than in Italian, and the risk of writing a translation that will be perceived as wrong is high.
 
My attempt at a translation reads as follows:
 
"I'll gladly leave to you the one with brains
 With you shall fall in love the one who's got a career"
 
"With you" is not one of those expressions that allow one to employ subject-verb inversion in common writing (at least according to my grammar book). However it doesn't sound too bad to my non-native ear. 
 
What do you think? Would you call the word ordering I used unusual or just wrong? In your opinion, is it acceptable to take such liberty in the translation of a song or poem?
 
Best,
 
-- bb

 With you shall fall in love the one who's got a career"
 
Non so risponderti sull'ordine delle parole, per la prima frase
secondo me per� sarebbe meglio "the one who's got a brain" (mi pare
pi� lineare sulla melodia).
 
 
-- 
Ci sono 10 tipi di persone al mondo: quelle che capiscono il sistema binario
e quelle che non lo capiscono.


Have you ever heard lyrics that sound like these? They are indeed 
atypical, which in itself isn't necessarily a problem. However, these 
lines sound contorted, and the second line is especially hard to hear. 
Placing the subject after the verb reminds an English speaker of old 
English, and the juxtaposition of that ancient reminder with the modern 
idea of "career" is unsettling. Many would rather violate the rules of 
grammar and use "who" to avoid saying "with whom" at the start of a 
sentence, so "with you" would fare no better.
 
Although I know that people tend not to like having words put in their 
mouth (or under their pen, or in this case; through their fingers), let 
me offer an example of more "accessible-sounding" lyrics.
 
You can take the girl with brains (brainy-girl),
You can be loved by the girl with a career (career-girl).
 
In lyrics for songs, we mostly say "girl," not "woman." Actually, some 
less complimentary terms are becoming common in present-day popular 
songs. You could also say "the one" if you prefer without alienating the 
listener.
 
 

 listener.
 
Thanks! Maybe I should explain I wasn't really interested in getting the 
best translation. Recently I have been studying some advanced grammar 
topics, and word ordering within a sentence appears to be a very 
delicate one.
 
As I understand it, subject-verb inversion gives a text either a 
narrative tone, or an old-fashioned one. In a few special cases (e.g. 
after 'neither') it can be heard in speech, but it is otherwise confined 
to written English. My grammar suggests a long list of sentence patterns 
that allow the use of inversion: but I'm always wary of the "list 
approach" to grammar, because no list can be complete.
 
So, I took this occasion to try to understand what it feels like, to a 
native speaker, to read a sentence written in an unusual ordering. From 
your words it seems that it causes surprise because it sounds 
old-fashioned, and also a bit of discomfort, especially if it describes 
something modern. Perfect! That's what I wanted to know :-)
 
Best,
 
-- bb