Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: LITTLE problem :  be  or  were

Hallo,
I'm an Italian guy 
and I'm usual to post here no more than one time a year.
Now it's that time.
-----
I know that this was a fairy realm with 
three reigning queens and if it is still so,
let me send my best wishes to them.
-------
Back to us. Here my little problem.
The #31 "Spiderman" comic issue 
is titled "If this be my destiny".
If you like, you can check it out here:
http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/title/spiderman_amazing-2.html
I'd like to know if my doubt about 
the use of the "be" verb instead 
of the "were" verb is reasonable
(I would have written it like this:
"If this were my destiny" or at least
"If this is my destiny")
and anyway
how do you translate it in Italian.
------
Thanks for your attention
(if I did Eglish grammar error in this post,
please fix them too    :-)    )
Bob

let me send my best wishes to them.
Ciao.. i miei saluti di bentornato
rollerbd
ps: io sono un paggetto nuovo.

 "If this is my destiny")
I would say this is one of those rare occasions where use of the
subjunctive in English mirrors the congiuntivo in Italian.
"If this (is to) be my destiny" is a way to think about it; there is no
assurance that it will, it is supposition.
"Sia questo il mio destino" would be the way I'd translate it, but I am
*far* from native and I could be way off.
As for "If this were my destiny" the implication is different: still the
doubt exists, but refers to the past.
"Fosse questo il mio destino" maybe, but again I'm not strong enough in
Italian to be sure.
I hope the descriptions help, at least, if my Italian doesn't.
Others will weigh in, I'm sure. 
Ciao.
-- 
I am Ketzl's stooge
Un-not my address if you wanna e-mail me.


Sounds a bit high-flown for Spiderman , but maybe I do him an injustice .
'Be' is perfectly correct - it's the present subjunctive ; you might still
come across it ('If it be true that...') , but it has a distinctly literary
flavour now ; you're far more likely to encounter it in Shakespeare or Donne
than Spiderman :-
'If they be two , they are two so
As stiff twin compasses are two'
'If our two loves be one'
'Or , if too hard and deep
This learning be'
'And if unfit for tombs and hearse
Our legend be'
'if, when I'm old , I be
Inflam'd by thee'
'If they be blind , then , Love , I give them thee'
'If that be simply perfectest
Which can by no way be express'd
But negatives'  etc.  (all Donne)
You'll find the pres. subj. used after other conjunctions too : 'Though she
be One that loves me' .
Mike

 be One that loves me' .
What about the "be" used in fixed expressions like "The powers that
be" or "Here be dragons". 
Is that "be" a pres. subj. as well [there is no principal sentence,
though] or has it got a different function?
-- 
Enrico C
Do Something Amazing Today
Save a Life, Give Blood

 though] or has it got a different function?
Probably a combination of things: set phrase ("The powers that (may) be."
Subjunctive.)
"Here be dragons" (An attempt to sound Gothic.)


 "Here be dragons" (An attempt to sound Gothic.)
It certainly is used to give an archaic flavour , as you say , but might
that be because it harks back to what was once a more standard use ?  Here
in England (up 'ere i' North , anyway) , if we want to sound like a West
Country yokel (don't ask !) , we might say something (with an attempt at the
appropriate accent) like 'That be a strange thing' or 'Aaar , she be a
mighty 'andsome woman .' I imagine this does have some sort of foundation in
actual West Country dialect (and therefore some  usage from the remoter
past) , but unfortunately I know virtually nothing about dialects . However
, in both cases the 'be' does seem to be merely an alternative form of the
indicative 'is' or 'are' . Probably nonsense , but can anyone shed further
light ?
Mike

 wrote in message
news:2in0j0F...@uni-berlin.de...

It's just occurred to me to check in Thomas Hardy : opening 'Jude the
Obscure' at random , I found a few examples almost straight away :-
(Challow is speaking) 'You should have waited a bit and not have done this -
in the delicate state , too , that you be in at present , ma'am.'
(A country girl is speaking) 'God forbid that I should say a sojer , a
sailor , or commercial gent from the towns , or any of them that be slippery
with poor women !'
(A carter speaking) 'You must mind that I be a-talking of the college life .
'Em lives on a lofty level ; there's no gainsaying it , though I myself med
not think much of 'em . As we be here in our bodies on this high ground , so
they be in their minds - nobleminded men enough , no doubt - some on 'em -
able to earn hundreds by thinking out loud . And some on 'em be strong young
fellows that can earn a'most as much in silver cups.' (4 examples there!)
Mike

 Obscure' at random , I found a few examples almost straight away :-
And you've just made me realize that in AmEng Black it's common use, too:
What you be sayin'?
He be tellin' me he not goin'.
etc.
Mostly used with the present participle. But "He be happy about it" will
also occur. A bit extreme, maybe, but similar.


 subjunctive in English mirrors the congiuntivo in Italian.
Could it be said or written nowadays?
In Billy Wilder's "Witness for the Prosecution" (from Agatha Christie's
tale [1]), the judge (or "justice"? Who knows... Is there any difference?)
says to the jury something like "you have to decide whether he be guilty of
not guilty". I don't know if it is still used, but if it were, it would
probably be a set phrase.
[1] You *must* read it. It's a masterpiece. The film is also *wonderful*,
and a little different, with so many great actors (Charles Laughton, Tyrone
Power, Marlene Dietrich, John Williams [2]), but you *must* read the book
first. Agatha Christie said it was the best film based on one of her books,
and she didn't like any of the others... Including "Murder on the Orient
Express", which had a stunning cast as well.
[2] He also played in "Dial 'm' for Murder" (as the chief inspector) and
"To Catch a Thief" (as the insurance agent).
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

 probably be a set phrase.
This seems a little less likely in AmEng these days.
Thanks for the recommendation. I'm always looking for classic movies. I
enjoyed "Murder on the Orient Express" immensely, and just watched "Death
on the Nile," which was okay. I'll check to see if it's available on
NetFlix.


 NetFlix.
You'll like it, my learned friend (you'll know what I mean if you see it). 
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 least, the more well-spoken of them.
A proposito: e` del tutto sballato l'uso del subjunctive (*be*) in
questa mia frase? 
"I wanted to crosspost  it so that it be seen both there and here."
-- 
A house divided against itself cannot stand



I know FB asked for some examples, which I'll provide as soon as my head
clears, (I have a cold and a back strain, so the meds are making me a bit
woozy) but to answer your question, Enrico, even though I don't know the
word "sballato" and my dumb dictionary isn't much help, I would say that
your sentence would be better expressed (in AmEng, anyway) with "would be
seen" instead of the subjunctive. (You've got a past-tense main verb
"wanted" with a present subjunctive... but the past-subjunctive wouldn't
fix it either... "would be seen" is still the best choice.)


 fix it either... "would be seen" is still the best choice.)
Thank you! Very helpful :)
Would a present tense in the principal fix the original sentence,
anyway? I mean:
"I want to crosspost  it so that it be seen both there and here."
-- 
Keep your chin up

 "I want to crosspost  it so that it be seen both there and here."
Somehow I don't feel this is wrong as you have it, but my ears/eyes want to
hear/see "I want to crosspost it so that it will be seen both there and
here" eliminating the subjunctive.


 (You've got a past-tense main verb "wanted" with a present subjunctive
Non dovrebbe essere sbagliato in sé, vero? E' analogo a "I suggested that
he go to that party".
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 he go to that party".
No, in your example it makes sense. In the original example, however,
(which I've somehow managed to lose ... along with my wits) the subjunctive
just didn't work.
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