Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: need e to need

C'è differenza di significato tra il verbo regolare "to need" e
l'anomalo "need"? se sì, potete darmene qualche esempio?
Grazie
::Dibbibbì::

 se sě, potete darmene qualche esempio?
C'e' una differenza di tono, suppongo. Cosa dice lo Swan?
Usare "need" nelle frasi negative sembra abbastanza normale.
"She doesn't need to go" and "She needn't go" sono entrambe ok.
Altrimenti "need" mi pare piu' formale, fino quasi all'assurdo.
"Need he go at once?" "He need only ask" invece di "Does he
need to go at once?" e "He only has to ask" sembrano un po'
insoliti / all'antica, direi.
"He need a book on moths" mi sembra sbagliato e basta. Mi sa che
_devi_ dire "He needs a book on moths". E mi suonano male
anche "He needn't a book on moths" e "Need he a book on moths?"
Allora non sono interscambiabili. Hmm.

 Cosa dice lo Swan?
Dice che la forma modale esiste in British English, molto più raramente in
American English, e che queste forme di 'need' sono usate mainly in
negative sentences, but they are also possible in questions, after 'if',
and in other 'non-assertive' strictures.
Riporto alcuni esempi dallo Swan [357].
"We needn't reserve seats - there'll be plenty of room"
"You needn't fill in a form." 
"Need I fill in a form?"
"I wonder of I need fill in a form."
"This is the only form you need fill in."
BUT NOT *"You need fill in a form."
Dice ancora lo Swan: Modal forms of 'need' normally refer to immediate
necessity. They are often used to ask for or give permission - usually
permission not to do something. Modal verbs are not used to talk about
habitual, general necessity.
"It's OK - you needn't pay for that phone call."
OR: "You don't need to pay for that phone call."
"You don't need t pay for emergency calls in most countries."
NOT: *"You needn't pay for emergency calls in most countries."
Anche: when making a decision about the future;
"Need I come in tomorrow?" 
"Tell her she doesn't need to work tonight."
"Will need to..." can be used to talk about future obbligation, and give
advice for the future. It can make orders and instructions sound less
direct.
"We'll need to repair the roof the roof next year."
"You'll need to start work soon if you want to pass your exams."
"You'll need to fill in this form before you see the Inspector."
In British English:
"That sofa need cleaning again." = "...needs to be cleaned..."
Inoltre, 
"You need your head examining."
OR: "You need your head examined."
In British English: If we say that somebody 'need not have done something',
we mean that he or she did it, but that was unnecessary - a waste of time.
"You needn't have woken me up. I don't have to go to work today."
"I needn't have cooked so much food. Nobody was hungry."
On the other hand, if we say that somebody 'did not have to do something',
we are simply saying that it was not necessary (whether or not it was done).
"I needn't have watered the flowers. Just after I finished it started
raining."
"It started raining, so I didn't need to water the flowers."
Nota bene: Io ho lo Swan "Second Edition". Credo che sia uscita anche
un'edizione più recente che, se non erro, tiene maggior conto della
crescente influenza dell'American English. Sarei curioso di sapere se
nell'ultima edizione il capitolo su 'need' è rimasto invariato.
===
Sempre su 'need', ripropongo quanto avevo trovato su un sito di grammatica
inglese:
QUOTE 
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/archive/need.html
[...]
 in British English, need can also be used as a modal verb. As with other
modal verbs, there is no "s" with the 3rd person singular, and questions
and negatives are made without "do":
This is the only thing I/you/he/she/it/we/they need do. 
I/you/he/she/it/we/they needn't come tomorrow - it isn't necessary. 
Need I/you/he/she/it/we/they really do it? 
The difference between need as an ordinary verb and as a modal verb is the
time we are referring to. Compare the two following sentences:
You needn't come in to work today if you are feeling well. 
You don't need to work on weekends, because the office is closed. 
The first sentence is referring to a situation that is (not) necessary in
the immediate future. The second is referring to something that is
generally (not) necessary.
In the past, needn't can be followed by the perfect infinitive (have + past
participle):
He needn't have gone in to work today, as the boss decided to close the
office.
This structure refers to something that was done, but was not necessary.
Compare with:
He did not need to go in to the office today. 
This structure just means that the action or situation was not necessary -
it does not indicate whether or not it was actually done.
Also, needn't can be used to talk about a situation where there is no
obligation involved:
She needn't visit my aunt and uncle = it is not necessary to visit them. 
Compare this to the use of must not: 
She must not visit my aunt and uncle = there is an obligation not to visit
them.
To see many examples of the use of need, see the Web Concordancer. Type
need, needn't or need not into the 'search string' field, select any corpus
in the 'select corpus' field, and then click on the 'search for
concordances' button.
More information about need: 
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/037.html#NEED
 
http://www.esl-lounge.com/student/grammar/grammar3-d.html#needn't
 
Exercises with need: 
http://www.esl-lounge.com/student/level3/neednthavewsheet.html
 
UNQUOTE

 OR: "You need your head examined."
Si'. Ma "He needs his head examining".

 "need cleaning"? davvero?
No, non davvero! >:-(
"needs..."
Mio errore di trascrizione.

 nell'ultima edizione il capitolo su 'need' č rimasto invariato.
C'č un paragrafo sulla differenza tra need not e must not, non so se non lo hai riportato oppure č un 
aggiunta...
In piů, quando all'inzio sull'uso di need come modale, hai scritto "non-assertive", mentre la mia edizione 
dice "non-affirmative". Qui sarebbe interessante capire la scelta dell'autore sulla sfumatura di significato 
(oppure hai cambiato trascrivendo?)... 

 significato (oppure hai cambiato trascrivendo?)...
Confermo "non-assertive". Forse ha semplicemente cambiato terminologia.
Nella mia edizione, il capitolo 374 č dedicato alle 'non-assertive words'.

 wrote in message 
news:47aedbdb$0$54788$7b0f...@mistral.news.newnet.co.uk...

Well , wherever 'need' is a transitive verb , as in your last examples , you 
can't substitute 'need' as modal verb .
Basically, the semi-modal 'need' is more limited in meaning 
(necessity/obligation) than  the regular 'need' , and in fact nowadays , as 
your earlier examples suggest , you can always substitute regular forms for 
modal ones , with the same meaning , so you never need to use the modal 
forms if you don't want to (as here , where I might have written 'you need 
never use') . As well as in negative statements (not only using 'not' : uses 
such as 'need go no further' or 'no-one need go hungry' are everyday), the 
modal form is still  common in certain questions - 'Need you ask?' , for 
example .
Mike

BUT NOT *"You need fill in a form."
Though 'You need fill in a form only if you intend to stay for more than a
week'  is perfectly possible .
Mike

 really a negative , is it ?
According to Swan, 'modal need' can be used in both negative and
"non-assertive" structures. By 'non-assertive' he means (as far as I
understand) sentences containing words such as, say, "if", "yet", "any",
"few", "difficult" "forget", "deny", and so on, and thus having some
negative, interrogative or comparative meaning, even when they do not
include a negative or interrogative form. For instance, those sentences
with modal 'need' I quoted before,  or other examples (regardless of
'need'):
"Let me know  if you have any trouble."
"I wonder if she found anything."
"She writes better than anybody."
"He seldom says anything."
"I've hardly been anywhere since Christmas."
"He denied that he had ever seen her."
"Please forget that I ever told you anything about it."
"I'd rather do it without anybody's help."
"It's difficult to understand anything he says."
"Few people have ever seen her laugh."

 wrote in message 
news:xn0fmaqx...@news.lillathedog.net...

Ok , thanks , that makes sense - I didn't really understand what he meant by 
'non-assertive' .
Mike