Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Schwa in sillabe accentate

Forse ricordo male, ma mi pare che tempo fa si era discusso se lo
schwa puo' trovarsi o meno anche in sillabe accentate.
"Chirp" potrebbe esserne un esempio.
Ma forse, come dicevo, ricordo male!

 "Chirp" potrebbe esserne un esempio.
Ma la vocale di 'chirp' č una schwa. O sě? No, non mi pare.
Max

 Ma la vocale di 'chirp' è una schwa. O sì? No, non mi pare.
Ehm, manca un 'non' nella prima frase.
Max

 "Chirp" potrebbe esserne un esempio.
Ma la *ir* in chirp non si pronuncia */3:/* ?



Quello è [3:]. Non so se possa essere considerato una schwa lunga. Credo di
no, sennò l'ipa sbaglierebbe a usare due simboli.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?". "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability". "It is obviously the same person".
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

 no, sennň l'ipa sbaglierebbe a usare due simboli.
No, infatti. Č articolato piů indietro. Lo visualizzo, non chiedermi come,
come la versione speculare di [&:], come se questo suono fosse pronunciato
verso l'interno della bocca, non verso l'esterno. Sě, lo so, devo farmi
curare.
Ciao, FB
-- 
L'importante č che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 Ma la *ir* in chirp non si pronuncia */3:/* ?
Hai ragione! 
Ho toppato, ma ho pronta la scusa ;)
Ho fatto l'errore di basarmi sul dizionario che avevo sotto mano, un
vecchio tascabvile Collins Gem English Learner's Dictionary, che
mannaggia a lui usa lo stesso simbolo (quello dello schwa) per
entrambi i suoini, distinguendoli solo per il segno del duepunti (:).
Ma dovevo accorgermene, non solo dal due punti, ma dalla parola
stessa! "Birds chirp.", stesso suono! :)


I'm sure the pronunciation you give (I've no idea how you type those weird
symbols) is  'correct' , but many people in the UK would pronounce both
'bird' and 'chirp' with a long schwa (and the same for 'girl' , 'sir' ,
etc. ) . They would rhyme these words with 'turd' and 'surd'- so what does
the ipa have to say about that ? Are these genuine example of a stressed
schwa ?
Incidentally , I've just looked at my Nuovo Ragazzini , which uses a
different set of phonetic symbols , and it actually gives the vowel in all
these words as a long version  of the one it uses for the schwa (a backwards
'e') .
Mike

 no, sennò l'ipa sbaglierebbe a usare due simboli.
Hai pienamente ragione! Mi ero stupidamente basato su un dizionario
che stupidamente usa un solo simbolo per entrambi i suoni, aggiungendo
solo i due punti per differenziare!

...

Allora la notazione del mio vecchio dizionarietto qualche senso
l'aveva, in fondo. O quanto meno e' in buona compagnia :-)

 'e') .
Questo mi pare normale, con i simboli IPA. Correggetemi se sbaglio.

Enrico C ha scritto:

I'm getting confused. The sound of schwa is more like a very short "uh" (to
use my own English-based phonetic.) The sound of the vowel in "bird" etc.
is different, and I would represent it as ř from the Norwegian, or as "eu"
from the French "peur."
To my ear, an example of a long-schwa is the U in "butter", all'americano,
while the second syllable ("-er") is an example of (regular) schwa, as said
in Boston, etc.
-- 
In case you're new to this NG, haven't been paying attention, have very
limited knowledge of English or Alzheimer's, let me state that the
foregoing is my opinion of modern, colloquial, American English. (With
apologies to the regular readers and the healthy, for the repetition.) I
point this out to avoid confusing the reader: references to British English
may appear to contradict the foregoing.
(And if you can read and comprehend the immediate foregoing message, your
level of English is not all that bad. :)
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 Questo mi pare normale, con i simboli IPA. Correggetemi se sbaglio.
L'IPA non è perfetto, questo è certo.
Ciao, 
-- 
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."


 from the French "peur."
Bird ==> [b3:d]
Peur ==> [poer] ([oe] ==> "ö")
Ciao, FB
-- 
In any case, if you say 'I gotta go' at an important job interview you're
contributing to being allowed just that privilege.
(Tony the ice man on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 FB : what vowel does the ipa suggest for 'turd' ?
I think IPA suggests [3:]
The 
http://dictionary.cambridge.org
 online dict sticks to standard
IPA.
I am a bit disappointed that Ascii IPA doesn't seem to have a specific
symbol for the "bird" / "turd"  sound, and just refers to the schwa.
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/english.html
|  /R/: 
|  shwa followed by 'r'.
|  'op<er>ation', 'f<ur>th<er>', '<ur>g<er>'. 
The more I try to hold the loose ends of phonetic symbols, the more I
am puzzled!
I am near to give up! :-)

 
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/english.html
Splendid idea. You might include a short guide in the FAQ, or 
/de facto FAQ/, with the few symbols one might not know.
Bye, FB
-- 
Conversation like television set on honeymoon: unnecessary.
(Murder by Death)

 What if one feels the need to not ya? ;)
A knotty problem, to be sure.


 
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/english.html
Are you sure? I'll have a look at it later.
Bye, FB
-- 
"The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live, that is what I mean—so
Bunbury died".
"He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians".


 Mike
LOL. Yes, to both questions.
There's a maintenance man in my building who is from Brooklyn; he actually
says things like "boid" for "bird" (never heard him say "turd!) and I've
even heard him say "erl" for "oil", which may be less common.
In my opinion, though, this is a trend that's dying out. As a parody it
works, but in real life it's not all that common any more.
-- 
In case you're new to this NG, haven't been paying attention, have very
limited knowledge of English, or have Alzheimer's, let me state that the


 comma!
Touché.


 /de facto FAQ/, with the few symbols one might not know.
Yes, that would be a good idea. 
Anyway, do you all guys agree about using the Ascii IPA standard in here? 
I second using a single standard, yet must confess I have some doubts myself :-)
To sum up the pros and cons I see in Kirshenbaum's Ascii IPA:
Pros: 
P1. IPA Ascii simbols are much easier to type on th eUsenet
(and that's a very big pro!)
Cons: 
C1. Dictionaries show different symbols (official IPA);
C2. Where is the vowel sound in "bird"? 
C3. the symbol for the "sort a" sound is /&/ 
Hmm...

 la "a" dello svedese "jag"
"Per chi *lo* pronuncia...": un "non" di troppo.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?". "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability". "It is obviously the same person".


 pronunciano ['pA.:ti] non ['pA:ti].
Pero' qui siamo nel campo delle varianti. L'importante IMHO sono i
simboli per suoni standard.


Credo che le analisi più recenti dell'inglese distinguano ben 3 "i" ed
altrettante "u"; cito da "A Handbook of English Pronunciation":
____
Symbol: /i:/
Keywords: tree, cream
[...]
Description and Remarks: its timbre is quite similar to Italian /i/ of
"vini"; it is long and tense.
Symbol: /I/
Keywords: tin, big
[...]
Description and Remarks: it is shorter, less closed and less fronted the the
previous sound. Never found in word-final position.
Symbol: /i/
Keywords: happy, noisy
[...]
Description and Remarks: it is a vowel more closed than /I/ and shorter than
/i:/; [...]
_______
In pratica, ogni volta che c'è un suono di "i" breve in finale di parola si
usa /i/; es. city /'sIti/
La situazione è simile per le "u", dove sono differenziate /U/ (look, pull),
/u:/ (moon, shoe) e /u/ (casual, annual).
Lorenzo
p.s.
ho scoperto solo ora che "timbre" non si pronuncia come "timber"

 'e') .
Il fatto è che i dizionari più vecchi usano uno certo sistema di simboli
fonetici (quello in cui il suono di "chirp", è rappresentato dallo stesso
simbolo dello schwa con i due punti) quelli più nuovi ne usano un altro
("chirp" è scritto /tS3:p/). Mi pare che la transizione sia avvenuta
all'inizio degli anni '90.
Riporto quanto viene detto a proposito da un manuale di pronuncia inglese
che ho comprato da poco (Porcelli, Hotimsky, "A Handbook of English
Pronunciation"):
[le mie note sono tra parentesi quadre]
________________________
"There are, then, problems of analysis of pronounciation, such as the
correct identification of the phonemes functioning in a language; these must
be kept apart from the problems of transcription of the pronunciation
itself. The former is a scientific inquiry whose only criteria are the
accuracy of the data collected and the objectivity of the conclusions; in
case of transcriptions, che choices can be to some extent conventional.
Let us give an example: the analysis of the so-called "long vowels" is
technically rather complex but no phonetician has ever doubted the the vowel
sounds in such pairs as <sheep/ship>, <Luke/look> and <caught/cot> are
different. The difference has been detected above all in the point of
articulation, that is, in the position of the tongue and of the lips. The
length of the sound is a secondary feature: one may lengthen the vowel of
<ship> at will (this may happen in some emphatic expressions) but its
quality or timbre will remain different from that of the vowel in <sheep>.
In spite of all this, the following symbols were used before the 13th
edition of the "English Pronuncing Dictionary" [by D. Jones]:
sheep /Si:p/     [an ordinary "i" with trailing colon]
Luke /lu:k/       [an ordinary "u" with trailing colon]
caught /ko:t/   [a left-opened "o" with trailing colon]
girl /g@:l/        [a 180°-rotated "e" with trailing colon]
ship /Sip/         [an ordinary "i"]
look /luk/         [an ordinary "u"]
cot /kOt/         [a left-opened "o"]
a girl /@'g@:l/  [a 180°-rotated "e"]
The vowel in <girl> was transcribed as /@:/ although its remarkable and
substantial differences from /@/ had been detected and acknowledged.
A.C. Gimson, a pupil of D. Jones's, suggested that the symbols of the vowels
should all be different, so that the mark /:/ should be reduntant; the
suggestion was not justified by a different analysis of the English vowel
system but only by the aim to give the dictionary a higher degree of
legibility. The resulting solution, widely adopted ever since, is as
follows:
sheep /Si:p/     [an ordinary "i" with trailing colon]
Luke /lu:k/       [an ordinary "u" with trailing colon]
caught /ko:t/   [a left-opened "o" with trailing colon]
girl /g3:l/        [a slightly flattened "3" with trailing colon]
ship /Sip/         [a dotless "i"]
look /luk/         [a small horseshoe-shaped symbol, with the mouth pointing
upwards]
cot /kOt/         [a sort of "o" but with a straight, vertical right-hand
contour]
a girl /@'g3:l/
_________________________
Comunque, ritornando all'oggetto del filone, lo schwa non può *mai* trovarsi
in una sillaba accentata; cito ancora dall'Handbook:
______
"Description and remarks: short vowel, central but highly mobile, never
stressed, called schwa; we will have repeated opportunities to deal with it.
It is the most frequent vowel sound in the English language."
______
Lorenzo

 ragione, un simbolo per [3:] non c'č.
Ma a noi chi ci impedisce di usare un semplice "tre duepunti" /3:/ ?
:-)

 evitando invece la /&/
To sum up, pensavo a qualcosa del genere:
Long vowels
 sheep    /i:/ 
 farm     /a:/ 
 hot (US) /a:/  
 coo      /u:/
 horse    /O:/
 bird     /3:/
Short vowels  
 ship     /I/
 head     /e/ 
 hat      /a/
 sock(BrE)/o/
 cup      /V/
 schwa    /@/ 
Ditemi se e' completo codswallop!
:-)

  sock(BrE)/o/
[sOk], direi.
Credo di concordare sul resto.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Locked from the inside. That can only mean one thing, and I don't know what
it is.
(Murder by Death)

  cup      /V/
perché non /^/ ?
per i dittonghi mi pare coerente la seguente trascrizione:
/eI/ say
/aI/ sky
/OI/ boy
/U@/ tour
/e@/ air
/I@/ ear
/aU/ now
/@U/ no
per le consonanti non dovrebbero esserci particolari difficoltà, mi pare che
le scelte più diffuse siano del tipo /TIN/ per "thing", /DIs/ per "this",
/Z/ per "vision", /SIp/ per "ship", /dZestS@(r)/ per "gesture"
just my (completely unauthoritative) opinion...
Lorenzo

 beat <i>
Mi perplimi. In ipa, quello è sempre [i:]. Mai viste altre trascrizioni.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?". "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability". "It is obviously the same person".


 /u:/ (moon, shoe) e /u/ (casual, annual).
Se si vuole essere piu' precisi, allora, si possono usare sia /i:/ 
che /i/ e 
sia /u:/ che /u/
-- 
Enrico C using MyNewsGate.net
Private replies to: enrico DOT c AT people  DOT 
it
Inviato da 
www.mynewsgate.net

 It is the most frequent vowel sound in the English language."
Si', credo che sia non accentato per definizione :-)


 just my (completely unauthoritative) opinion...
Mi pare di essere d'accordo con te su tutta la linea! :-)
[tranne forse sulla /a/ /A/]


 Mi perplimi. In ipa, quello è sempre [i:]. Mai viste altre trascrizioni.
Si', ma vedi anche cosa dice Lorents su "happy" , che non e' ne'  /hapI/ 
ne' /hapi:/ , ma /hapi/


 ne' /hapi:/ , ma /hapi/
Ma perché lo "ea" di "beat" e quello di "bead" dovrebbero essere diversi?
Ciao, FB
-- 
Just as I thought. Another test that could have cost us our lives, saved
only by the fact that I am enormously well-bred.
(Murder by Death)

 breve ("tense") e le minuscole per le lunghe ("lax");
A proposito di vocali tense e lax, qui c'e' un utile specchietto...
http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/IPA/SSAE.html


 wrote in message
news:fT8cd.43988$H11.1...@twister1.libero.it...

I wouldn't want to disagree with any of this , but , whilst its precision
may suit the needs of the academic phonetician , I doubt if it's much
practical use to most learners of the language . Firstly , it's true that
the vowel of 'sheep' isn't exactly the sound of the vowel in 'ship'
lengthened ; on the other hand , the latter sound doesn't actually exist in
any English word , so the 'i:' symbol is a convenient way of representing
the sound in 'sheep' , whilst retaining 'i' for the 'ship' sound ;
representing the latter by a symbol which can't be reproduced on a keyboard
won't do anything to help a learner to make the right sound (basically , he
has to hear the sound and associate it with whatever symbol) and is a
nuisance in forums like this . The same is true for the other vowels . As
regards the schwa , it's again true that if you don't allow that a
lengthened form exists , it can never be accented ; but the fact remains
that if you ask an English person to make a lengthened schwa sound , many
will produce a sound indistinguishable to a normal ear from the vowel sound
they use in 'bird'  -  e.g. if they are asked to produce a lengthened
version of the second syllable of the word 'numbered' , they will be saying
'bird' .
Mike


direi che siamo a cavallo, ora ci rimane solo da convincere l'intera usenet
ad adottare il nostro sistema :-)
beh, se non proprio tutta usenet perlomeno icli...
Ciao, Lorenzo

 beh, se non proprio tutta usenet perlomeno icli...
Oggi Icling domani il mondo! 
B-)

 dictionary which doesn't give it as standard.
Sure it isn't [v@'k&bjul@ri]?
Bye, FB


 Bye, FB
Beh, questo dovresto chiederlo a Mark Barratt :-)
Io ho riportato un suo post da misc.education.language.english 
BTW, che ne pensi delle altre questioni discusse con Lorents?

 BTW, che ne pensi delle altre questioni discusse con Lorents?
In my humble opinion, using Kirshenbaum's IPA as it is would be fine.
Bye, FB
-- 
"What meaning of this, Mitter Twain?". "I will tell you, Mr Wang, if you
can tell me why a man who possesses one of the most brilliant minds of this
century can't say his prepositions or articles".
(Murder by Death)

 In my humble opinion, using Kirshenbaum's IPA as it is would be fine.
Let's try that way then. Simplest solutions are always the best :)