Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Normal - normality

Just out of curiosity I took part of the BBCquiz that you can find here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/apps/ifl/worldservice/quiznet/quizengine?ContentType=text/html;quiz=1433_word_formation
The only mistake I made was in the sentence: It's always a bit
depressing when you come back to _____________ after a wonderful
holiday.
I was unsure whether to choose "normal" or "normality" - I chose the
first as it "sounded" better. It was considered wrong: "normal is an
adjective - how can we make a noun?" they asked...
Now, I'm fully aware of the logic BUT  is it really wrong?
A google search with "go back to normal" gave 402.000 entries. At times
normal is actually used as an adjective, but not always. Couldn't we
interpret "It's hard to go back to normal" as a shorter form of "to
what is normal" ?
Thanks
Claudia
PS I don't want to start a discussion on "analisi logica" and stuff
like that, I would prefer to know how you feel about the sentence.

 first as it "sounded" better.
I made that test a few days ago and I instictively used "normality", as a 
direct translation from Italian... 

 first as it "sounded" better.
_Collins Cobuild dictionary_
back to normality : 0 occurences
back to normal : 11 occurences
return to normality: 1 occurence
return to normal: 9 occurences
Kiuhnm

 Kiuhnm
In effetti anche il dizionario Oxford contiene solo l'espressione "be back 
to normal"...

 Now, I'm fully aware of the logic BUT  is it really wrong?
Boh, a me sembrava di avere sentito quella frase parecchie volte in film e 
telefilm...
In effetti il dizionario Collins Cobuild che ho sul pc mi da' questi esempi:
"We will go back to normal when things calm down".
"But, after a decent interval, trade relations began to return to normal"
"Then life started to go back to normal"
"Life has improved and returned to normal"
"Life has not yet returned to normal, but we're getting there"
"Air traffic had returned to normal"
...e così via.
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"E' nato prima il citofono o il testimone di Geova?"
My still-in-construction website: 
www.pentolaio.tk
 

 to normal"...
To say 'back to normal' is acceptable because it is an idiomatic expression. 
To say 'back to normality' is acceptbale because it is correct. 

 ha scritto nel 
messaggio news:12gtduc...@corp.supernews.com...

So, can we say "normality" insted of "normal" in all those expression Enrico 
quoted? 

 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/apps/ifl/worldservice/quiznet/quizengine?ContentType=text/html;quiz=1433_word_formation
http://snipurl.com/wlyv
Kiuhnm

 uh!
"back to normal" would be if there's been something strange about
_you_,
e.g. you were hallucinating or very angry. "back to normality" is
correct
because "normality" is the _place_, not the condition, that you are
returning
to. On holiday you are in an abnormal world. When you get back to the
office
to find the missing 75 cents in the Peterson file, that's normality.

 to find the missing 75 cents in the Peterson file, that's normality.
Come ho fatto a non pensarci?
Quindi potrei anche dire
"It's always a bit depressing when your life comes back to normal after 
a wonderful holiday".
Kiuhnm

 Enrico quoted?
Yes, or you can instead use the noun 'normalcy'. You will hear 'back to 
normal' a lot. At some point the misuse of a word becomes so common that it 
is accepted as an idiomatic expression. I would say that this is the case 
for 'back to normal' in speech but not in formal writing. It would not be 
unreasonable to disagree with my position and to insist on normality or 
normalcy in spoken English. 

 a wonderful holiday".
"comes" sembra strano in quella frase, invece "goes" va benissimo.

 to find the missing 75 cents in the Peterson file, that's normality.
In my case normality is 125 students needing attention...urgh...
anyway, thanks Adam, I think you made it very clear, I should have
thought about it a bit more!
It's funny, my English is really quite good (I took my Proficiency Exam
and got A when I was 19, 21 years ago.... and I never stopped
practising) but I've never had as many doubts as I have now after
joining this group!!!!
Ciao
Claudia
www.claudiacantaluppi.net

 joining this group!!!!
Do you have any comments on if/how Proficiency has changed over
the last 20 years?

 the last 20 years?
Mmmm not really, as I don't know how/if it has changed. I was actually
going to see if I could try any mock tests anywhere. What i remember
about my exam was how desperate I was during the listening paper (a
telephone conversation with a lady who had just had an accident) , how
I completely invented an explanation for "racking one's brain" (which I
didn't know) during the reading paper and how Iucky I was that the
photograph I was shown during speaking was of people playing tug of war
(the paul mccartney album wasn't all that old then!). And i had read
one of the set books (margaret atwood), had enjoyed it and indeed wrote
one of the compositions on it.
As a teacher (now) I would really like to see how i actually did -
apart from the grade I was given (they didn't even give you a
performance grid)
Claudia

 a wonderful holiday".
Perfetto, io pero' userei "goes" invece di "comes". Istintivamente, se
qualcuno usasse questa espressione con "normality" invece di "normal"
penserei che
a) e' uno straniero che ha ancora relativamente poca familiarita' con
la lingua, oppure
b) e' un po' un fanatico della grammatica (e' rarissimo trovarne uno di
madrelingua inglese, ma esistono).
Questa discussione mi ricorda una citazione di un matematico inglese
del ventesimo secolo, John Whitehead. In topologia esiste il concetto
di "trasversalita'", e molti usano "transversal" come aggettivo. A
Whitehead questo non piaceva. A quanto pare, diceva: "Transversal is a
noun, the adjective is transverse".

 Now, I'm fully aware of the logic BUT  is it really wrong?
No it isn't. They were just being anal retentive, as my wife says...
Besides, I wouldn't really trust the average BBC employee to know an
awful lot about anything.

 going to see if I could try any mock tests anywhere.
That would be
http://www.cambridgeesol.org/support/dloads/cpe_downloads.htm


'Normal' is actually a normal noun (the New Oxford says : 'normal...noun 
(mass noun) 1 the usual , average , or typical state or condition'); so 
even the most anally retentive grammar fanatic in England would find it 
perfectly correct as well as normal to use it here ; anyone who thinks 
otherwise is simply mistaken .
Mike