Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Speaking of "shibboleth"

I'm told that during WWII the Dutch used a test of pronunciation to
discover a German undercover by getting them to say the name of the town
"Scheveningen", which in Dutch is pronounced with a hard "ch" (like the
"ch" in German "ach",) thus: SKHE-veningen, but that combination of letters
is difficult for a German and in German it's pronounced as "sh" (in
English) so when they said "SHE-veningen" it betrayed them as Germans.
Anecdotal maybe, but I believe it's a fact.
I'm sure there have been other such "tests", considering the original
(allegedly) stems from biblical times.
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 (allegedly) stems from biblical times.
I remember having read a similar story about Romans and Etruscans, lot of
time ago. The Romans had Etruscan unit in an ambush. Questioning the
prisoners, they discovered that none of them personally was known by the
Etruscans defending a sieged fortress. So they sent two spies into the
fortress, pretending they were the only two survivors of that Etruscan unit.
The spies wore the clothes and weapons of two of the seized soldiers, and
they were perfectly fluent in Etruscan. However, the Etruscan commander
immediately identified them as Roman spies and had them killed. Although the
commander never met any of the seized soldiers personally, he had heard
about that unit, and knew that all the men in it came from the northern part
of Etruria, while the two Roman spies had a perfect *southern* Etrurian
accent.
--
Cingar
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 none of them personally was known
   "none of them was personally know"
Anything else?


 Although the commander never met any of the seized soldiers personally
"Soldiers"! Vale come una parola unica in cui c'č il suono /dZ/? Questo č
standard.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

    "none of them was personally know"
you were right in the first place: "none of them was personally known"
("was personally" is a little better than "personally was")
-- 
Pear pea a chair, Ray. Core Reggie eel me oh eat alien, oh... :)

 you were right in the first place: "none of them was personally known"
It sounds like I was right in the "second place"...


 It sounds like I was right in the "second place"...
I'm your solicitor. Let me talk on your behalf. You wrote "was personally
know", so I suppose Joey was referring to the missing "n".
P.S. This is 500 bigliettons, my dear fellow.
Bye, FB
-- 
Nasalization is just a part of life.
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 P.S. This is 500 bigliettons, my dear fellow.
500 bigliettons is megl che one. Contants or assegn?


 500 bigliettons is megl che one. Contants or assegn?
Contants, denghiu.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura",
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi's opinion on it.cultura.linguistica -
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)


Just out of curiosity, is "ostrega" common outside of the Veneto?
(I would use "ostregheta".  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

("was personally" is a little better than "personally was")
Surely it's "were"? 3rd person plural.
"none of them were personally known"

 "none of them were personally known"
I don't think so. "None" is 3rd person singular. there exists a "none" 3rd
person plural, but Mary Cassidy told me it's an archaism, the plural of
"nobody" (I asked about it after hearing the line "Much that once was is
lost, for none now live who remember is" in "The Fellowship of the Ring").
I think "none" intended as a plural may be either an archaism or an
informal usage (where, I suppose, "none" is still singular, but the verb
agrees with "them", in your sentence, not with "none", ad sensuum), the
correct form being the the singular.
Bye, FB
-- 
Just as I thought. Another test that could have cost us our lives, saved
only by the fact that I am enormously well-bred.
(Murder by Death)

 (I would use "ostregheta".  :>)
Here we say "ciůmbia".
Bye, FB


 (I would use "ostregheta".  :>)
Io uso "orcobòe".
Si usa bestemmiare in UK/USA?
Un mio vicino di casa ogni tre frasi emette, anzi urla, un 
"porcod**" 
-- 
oggi no, domani sì

 correct form being the the singular.
Both Merriam-Webster and American Heritage say it is either singular or
plural, depending on speaker's intent. That's the way I've always heard and
used it. The American Heritage dictionary provides the following
clarification:
      USAGE NOTE: It is widely asserted that none is equivalent to no one,
and hence requires a singular verb and singular pronoun: None of the
prisoners was given his soup. It is true that none is etymologically derived
from the Old English word n, "one," but the word has been used as both a
singular and a plural noun from Old English onward. The plural usage appears
in the King James Bible as well as the works of John Dryden and Edmund Burke
and is widespread in the works of respectable writers today. Of course, the
singular usage is perfectly acceptable. The choice between a singular or
plural verb depends on the desired effect. Both options are acceptable in
this sentence: None of the conspirators has (or have) been brought to trial.
When none is modified by almost, however, it is difficult to avoid treating
the word as a plural: Almost none of the officials were (not was)
interviewed by the committee. None can only be plural in its use in
sentences such as None but his most loyal supporters believe (not believes)
his story.


 Bye, FB
[This is Joey DoWop in disguise. (My ISP has messed up my account so I have
to use this temporary one until they fix it. I apologize for any
inconvenience this may cause.)]
Allow me to repeat what FB said:
None means "no one" therefore it's singular.
vbg
The problem arises when you use constructions like "none of the secretaries
takes shorthand"; it sounds like the plural "secretaries" should govern the
verb, but the subject is actually "none" or "no one" => takes shorthand.
Even "none of them" makes it sound like it should be plural.


 plural, depending on speaker's intent. That's the way I've always heard and
JoeyDee here again:
You know, I was about to add it's really a matter of preference, (so you
see where my preference lies) but to my ears it seems more logical as a
singular meaning "no one". I do see where the exceptions you cited make
sense, however. YET ANOTHER RULE BROKEN! HUZZAH! :)
Anyway, thanks for clarifying.


sense, however. YET ANOTHER RULE BROKEN! HUZZAH! :)
At least I'm not completely wrong this time :))

 correct form being the the singular.
A native speaker would say 'were.'
The Greg Reference Manual, 7th edition, 1993
Indefinite Pronouns Singular or Plural
'All', 'none', 'any', 'some', 'more', and 'most' may be singular or plural,
depending on the noun that they refer to. (The noun often occurs in an 'of'
phrase that follows immediately.)
All the manuscript has been finished.
All the reports have been handed in.
Some was acceptable (Meaning some of the manuscript.)
Some were acceptable. (Meaning some of the reports.)
Is there any (money) left?
Are there any (bills) to be paid?
Do any of you know John Ferguson well? ('Any' is plural because it refers to
the plural 'you'; hence the plural verb 'do know'.)
Does any one of you know John Ferguson well? ('Any' is singular because it
refers to the singular 'one'; hence the singular verb 'does know'.)
More than one customer has complained about that item. ('More' refers to the
singular noun 'customer'; hence the singular verb 'has complained'.)
More than five customers have complained about that item. ('More' refers to
the plural noun 'customers'; hence the plural verb 'have complained'.)
Most of the stock has been sold.
More of these computer stands are due.
Some of the software seems too high-priced.
Some of the videotapes seem to high-priced.
In formal usage, none is still considered a singular pronoun. In general
usage, however, none is considered singular or plural, depending on the
number of the noun to which it refers. 'No one' or 'not one' is often used
in place of 'none' to stress the singular idea.
None of the merchandise was stolen.
None of the packages were properly wrapped.
None were injured. (Meaning none of the passengers.)
Not one of the associates has a good word to say about the managing partner.
The Holt Handbook, 1986
Indefinite pronouns
In most cases, you should use a singular verb when using an indefinite
pronoun as a subject. Although some indefinite pronouns--both, many, few,
several, others--are  always plural, most--another, anyone, everyone, one,
each, either, neither, anything, everything, something, and somegody--are
singular. That is, each word generally stands for a single person or thing.
Anyone is welcome to apply for a grant, proving certain financial
qualifications are met.
Something was wrong with the way the results were tabulated.
Someone is in the kitchen with Dinah.
Some indefinite pronouns--some, all, any, more, most, and none--can be
singular or plural. In these cases the noun to which the pronoun refers
determines whether the verb form should be singular or plural.
Of course, some of this trouble is to be expected. (some refers to trouble;
therefore, the berb is singular)
Some of the spectators are getting restless. (some refrs to spectators;
therefore, the verb is plural)

 "porcod**"
In USA non si usa. ;>>>>>>>>>)
(Naso "Collodiana".
Joe from Massachusetts


If you mean Pinocchio's nose then it's *Naso Collodiano* :-D
Who is more creative in the USA?In Italy people from Veneto are well know
for inventing blasphemies :-D
Raudo


 Raudo
I'm not bragging, but I do think New Yorkers are right up there. Maybe Los
Angelenos, too.
Reminds me of a cartoon I once saw, a two-panel cartoon.
In the first panel the caption says "Los Angeles".
There are two people passing; one says to the other "Have a nice day!" but
you can see he's thinking "F*ck you!"
In the second panel the caption says "New York".
There are also two people passing; one says to the other "F*ck you!" but
you can see he's thinking "Have a nice day!" :-)
-- 
Pear pea a chair, Ray. Core Reggie eel me oh eat alien, oh... :)
Joey DoWop, working on a temporary account.

 (Naso "Collodiana".
I think there's a misunderstanding here: "bestemmiare" means swearing
*against God*.
I'm sure that in the seven years I spent abroad (Australia and USA) I never
heard anyone "bestemmiare".
-- 
Ciao
Frank

 and USA) I never heard anyone "bestemmiare".
Come mai noi sì e loro no? una roba cattolica? o retaggio 
ancora più antico (per Giove!)


 ancora piů antico (per Giove!)
Yeah, it's interesting. I guess I didn't realize that "bestemmiare" meant
actually "blaspheme" and not "curse" in general. (The dictionary I use
lists: "curse, swear" first and then as a "rel" (religious) entry,
"blaspheme."
For the most part, the people I know do not blaspheme. Some will "take the
name of the Lord in vain" such as "Jesus, what do you mean!??" and that
sort of thing, but even that's not really blaspheming, is it? Or am I just
a badly adjusted recovering Catholic?? :)
On the other hand, people are no strangers to curse words in general, the
most versatile being "fuck" and it's variations. I'm sometimes surprised
when someone utters that word, as it seems out of character for so many
"refined" folk.


 ancora piů antico (per Giove!)
Mi pare che bestemmino i Greci (ortodossi).
Mi risulta invece che non bestemmino i Tedeschi (protestanti) e i Francesi
(misti); non so come si comportino gli Spagnoli e i Portoghesi (cattolici).
Ciao
Frank
---
P.S. Poiché non bestemmiano gli anglofoni in generale, presumo che non
bestemmino nemmeno i cattolicissimi Irlandesi.

 Mi risulta invece che non bestemmino i Tedeschi (protestanti)
I tedeschi non sono sia protestanti sia cattolici?
Ciao, FB


 I tedeschi non sono sia protestanti sia cattolici?
Sapevo che la Baviera č una ragione cattolica, ma ritenevo che in Germania
il protestantesimo fosse di gran lunga prevalente.
Mi sbagliavo, a quanto pare: secondo l'Atlante Geografico Rizzoli Larousse
le percentuali sono le seguenti:
Protestanti: 42.8%
Cattolici: 32.6%
Musulmani: 2.1%
Altre religioni: 22.5% (questo dato mi pare stranamente alto)
Secondo l'enciclopedia geografica De Agostini (1996) i dati sono addirittura
piů vicini:
Protestanti: 41.2%
Cattolici: 40.6%
Musulmani: 3%
Stranamente il Dizionario Geografico De Agostini del 2004 riproduce gli
stessi *identici* dati del Rizzoli Larousse.
-- 
Ciao
Frank

 heard anyone "bestemmiare".
Really? Never heard the expression "Jesus F.....g Christ" or (lesser) "Holy S..t"?

Secondo il CIA World Factbook:
 
Protestant 34%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 3.7%, unaffiliated or other
28.3%
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gm.html#People
-- 
Mary

_Roberto_, domenica 05/set/2004:

Secondo me holy shit non č una bestemmia, perché si dŕ la qualifica di holy
alla shit, non la qualifica di shit alla holy.
Fa ridere, perň, seriamente, non č cosě? :-)
-- 
Maria Luisa C - 05/09/2004 15.00.07



Concordo. Ho sentito "Jesus F.. ecc" e le sue varianti. Credo  sia l'unico
esempio di bestemmiare negli USA. "Holy shit" veramente non "swears against
God" ma (instead) eleva la qualifica di "shit" a un luogo inaspettato. E
verament mi fa ridere. :D


If I understand this idea of "bestemmia" correctly, it means directly
cursing God or something holy, as opposed to merely "taking God's name in
vain", which is the typical form swearing takes in English. So, for example,
the expression "Christ on a crutch", which is still common in some places in
the US, is not bestemmia because it merely uses the name Christ in a vulgar
way, but Christ is not the object of abuse.
I don't think bestemmia is common now or in the past in English. In
Elizabethan times, English was full of curses involving the body parts of
God. "God's body!" is a generic example. Because it made people feel uneasy,
the phrase was twisted to "odds bodkins!", which is literally meaningless
(but everyone knew what you meant). Like "darn", "drat", "durn", "dang", and
other derivatives of "damn", this is what's called a minced oath (here, the
word "mince" doesn't mean chopped up, it's used in an archaic sense of
minimizing, making smaller, diminishing).
Spanish has many fine examples of bestemmia, but I've never heard a name for
this category of swearing. Commonly heard in some places is "Me cago en
Dios" ("I shit on God"), which is almost always minced to "Me cago en diez"
("I shit on ten")
"MLC" <maria...@NOgmail.com> wrote in message
news:xmtqksm4ctgc$.dlg@ID-187316.user.uni-berlin.de...



What would happen if a pious person in the Veneto were to put up a
sign in his restaurant saying "Per favore, non bestemmiare", only to
find that this only results in the elimination of "curses" involving
the Deity, but does not stop his customers from using other obscene,
sexually explicit, and offensive language? In order to advise his
customers not to use this other type of offensive language, he would
have to put up a second sign. What could he say on that sign? "Vietato
il turpiloquio"?
Could he just put up one sign that suggested that both forms of
offensive language were unwelcome? What could he say on that sign?
Here in the US, one sign would suffice for both types of offensive
language, a simple "No swearing allowed".
Joe from Massachusetts

 language, a simple "No swearing allowed".
Man, are *you* hanging out in the wrong places! :)



I'm just trying to find out if there is a one-word equivalent of our
"swearing" in Italy.
Signs of this type were once not uncommon in the Veneto, where
swearing of all types reached the status of an art form. I have read
that there still exist some old signs of this type in the Veneto.
«Tuttavia in alcune regioni la bestemmia ha assunto quasi un valore di
imprecazione: in Toscana e in Veneto, specialmente, il suo uso è
piuttosto diffuso e ne è prova il fatto che in alcune strade di queste
regioni ancora troviamo antichi cartelli che invitano i passanti a
"non bestemmiare".»
http://web.tiscali.it/scudit/mdcelen_turp.htm
Joe from Massachusetts

language, a simple "No swearing allowed".
"evitare linguaggio scurrile, per favore".
"no parolacce, grazie".
Non ho mai visto in Italia cartelli nei bar che invitassero a non dire
parolacce o a non bestemmiare. In giro si vedono dei cartelli con
scritto "la bestemmia è [...]" dove [...] è una parola che adesso non
ricordo. Altri sono "non bestemmiare, Dio ti ama". Di solito, almeno
quelli che ho visto, sono graffittati di bestemmie.
Sebastiano

"non bestemmiare".»
Vero.
Sebastiano

 language, a simple "No swearing allowed".
"Turpiloquio" andrebbe bene. Ma poi, "dimmi chi e quali posti frequenti e
ti dirò chi sei"... Un posto dove la gente bestemmia... Beh, penso si
capisca; in un posto dove non si bestemmia... Beh, non si bestemmia e
basta. Mi spiego: secondo il tipo di persone che frequenta un locale, si
forma la futura clientela in modo più o meno coerente.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

forma la futura clientela in modo più o meno coerente.
Dipende da mille fattori. Uno che non riesce nemmeno a sopportare una
bestemmia, difficilmente può aprire un locale in Veneto, almeno in
provincia. Poi, ovviamente, uno fa quello che vuole.
Ah, ovviamente considero volgare chi bestemmia, non voglio certo
difendere le bestemmie.
Sebastiano

 wrote in message
news:jdmmj0tv71bn94mlj...@4ax.com...

I would have to say that while I was in Vicenza, many, if not most,
conversations between men included the phrases "D** can" and "porco
D**".
Joe from Massachusetts

D**".
Yeah, it's not uncommon.
Sebastiano

 bestemmia scappa.
I assume your "CL" refers to "Comunione e Liberazione"? I think that
there are many among us"foresti" who are unfamiliar with this
organization, and would not recognize the initials.
Joe from Massachusetts

organization, and would not recognize the initials.
Yeah, sorry. I've used it without even thinking about it, 'cause we
call it "ci-elle" and "ci-ellini" are the members. I used the hyphen
because when you say "ci-elle" and "ci-ellino" you have to say the i.
"ciellino" won't work, because the i would be silent (as in cellino).
Sebastiano

 wrote in message
news:srpoj01oaj8karag2...@4ax.com...

That reminds me of another group, not as innocuous as the "ci-ellini".
I always refer to the members of this other group as the "cilicisti",
but I don't know how many readers of this newsgroup would immediately
associate the group with this word.
Joe from Massachusetts

associate the group with this word.
I have no idea about what you are talking about. The word "cilicista"
makes me think of CLC, but - if CLC is the group you were talking
about - I don't know the meaning of the acronym.
So, what's the hell is a "cilicista"? ^_^
Sebastiano

 "ciellino" won't work, because the i would be silent (as in cellino).
Ma, scusa, allora scrivi anche "sci-are"!?
--
Cingar
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 wrote in message
news:3asoj05kpbt78u9ha...@4ax.com...

One who uses a "cilice" ("cilicio").
cilicio   ci|lì|cio
s.m.
1 TS stor., in Roma antica, stoffa ruvida e pungente ricavata dal pelo
di capra o dai crini di cavallo
2 CO cintura provvista di punte, nodi e sim. o, anche, veste di stoffa
particolarmente ruvida indossata direttamente sulla pelle a scopo di
mortificazione: portare il c.
3 CO fig., tutto quello che, materialmente o spiritualmente, provoca
dolore e afflizione: questi stivali sono un c.
Joe from Massachusetts

One who uses a "cilice" ("cilicio").
Oh, crap. I was in the "acronym mode". I could have guessed that. :)
Sebastiano

Ma, scusa, allora scrivi anche "sci-are"!?
No, volevo scrivere la pronuncia, non la grafia. Ci sono parole con
"cie" dove si legge la i? Ho messo il trattino per far capire agli
stranieri che la i va letta. Se avessi scritto "ciellino", come scrivo
sempre (cosa che non ho specificato, generando più confusione di
quella che volevo evitare) molti avrebbero pensato alla pronuncia
"cellino", che non è.
Quindi, si scrive CL e ciellino. Si dice cielle e ci-ellino.
Scusate l'imprecisione.
Sebastiano

 Scusate l'imprecisione.
Mah, così, su due piedi...


Mah, cosě, su due piedi...
Ok, butto dei ceci a terra. :)
Sebastiano

 alto)
La ragione mi pare che stia nel fatto che in Germania si 
dichiara la propria religione e si pagano contributi 
fiscali di conseguenza, per cui molti si dichiarano non 
religiosi.
Credo, chiedo conferma.
-- 
oggi no, domani sì

 Ok, butto dei ceci a terra. :)
Fichi d'india?
Ciao, FB
-- 
"The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live, that is what I mean—so
Bunbury died."
"He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

Fichi d'india?
Ouch!
Sebastiano


But who is it that uses the cilice?
Joe from Massachusetts

 Si usa bestemmiare in UK/USA?
anche se c'entra poco, ricordo che nel film "ultimo tango a parigi" il
protagonista paul (marlon brando) nelle scene iniziali spara un
bestemmione che perň si sente pochissimo, perchč sovrastato dal rumore
del treno. me ne sono accorto vedendolo in versione originale (la
frase č: f*ck*ng g*d!!!) perchč i nostri doppiatori avevano cancellato
la bestemmia, potenza del doppiaggio! dunque almeno gli americani
curse god and the saints, though it is not very common as in italy.

 curse god and the saints, though it is not very common as in italy.
Qui, ci sono due versioni di ogni film.
La prima, l'originale, può contenere bestemmie e parolaccie.
La seconda sostituirà bestemmie e parolaccie con parole inoffensive.
La prima versione si può vedere nei teatri, o sui canali TV a
pagamento, come HBO o Showtime.
La seconda versione si può vedere sui canali "normali", come ABC, CBS,
NBC.
Se vuoi sentire bestemmie alla televisione, devi pagare!
In the comic film "A Christmas Story", a young boy is punished for
saying the "F" word. When his mother asks him where he learned that
terrible word, he replies that he learned it from a friend, so the
friend is also punished. In fact, he learned the word from his father,
who would swear like a trooper when frustrated or angry. In the film,
no actual swear words are used, but Darren McGavin, the man who played
the father, did a great job of spouting gibberish which sounded like
serious swearing. There is a hilarious scene in the film where the
father is in the basement trying to repair the coal furnace, while
black smoke billows throughout the house. A chorus of what sounds like
an angry man swearing echoes through the house, accompanied by
clanging and banging and minor explosions. The father emerges from the
basement covered in soot. The distributors of the film were convinced
that he was actually swearing, so they had the entire sound track
analyzed in order to eliminate the obscenities. No obscenities were
found, and the film was released intact. This film was very popular,
and one network
(I think it is TNT) has shown it continuously for 24 hours on
Christmas Eve for the past several years.
In the 1960's, when the Broadway musical  "West Side Story" was made
into a movie, one song had to have one word changed to appease the
censors. There is a number called the "Officer Krupke" number, in
which the gang of juvenile delinquents called the "Jets" harass their
local Police Officer, Officer Krupke, as he walks the sidewalks of
their neighborhood. The last line of the song was originally "Gee
Officer Krupke, f*ck you". It was changed to "Gee Officer Krupke, Krup
you".
Joe from Massachusetts


I remember some time ago, right in this ng, an unaware Briton ("Alan Lothan"
if I remember correctly) used in a reply the much-condemned Italian curse
"Porco D**!", giving rise to a whole sequence of outraged responses... he
said he'd heard that expression frequently when he'd visited Italy and he
didn't know it was that strong...
I live in Milan and I think the use of a "bestemmia" if would give rise to
indignant reactions in pretty much every situation I can think of, even in
very informal and casual occasion where "ordinary" strong cursing is
perfectly fine. Anyway, bestemmie are quite common in some social milieux -
for example - among teenagers who want to play the "cool 'n' tough guy"
type...
Lorenzo

 wrote in message
news:Mdo%c.82077$1V3.2...@twister2.libero.it...

I am not a proponent of swearing, but I have to admit it was pretty
common among the military and among some of my friends in Vicenza when
I was there, and the Veneto has something of a reputation for creative
use of the language.
Last year, when the Alpini held their Raduno in Vicenza, someone noted
in a newsgroup that you could see the Alpini on a webcam which was
focused on the Piazza dei Signori. Someone else posted a reply saying
that you couldn't walk through the Piazza because of the terrible
language they used!
Joe from Massachusetts

 type...
Sabato scorso ero seduto davanti a un rifugio di montagna, e due pischelli
continuavano a ripetere "figo", declinato in ogni modo possibile, parola
che, immagino, avevano scoperto da poco.
Ciao, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)