Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: this / that

I have trouble deciding whether to use "this" or "that" when referring 
to a reason or something said before.
Here are two examples:
a) Didn't you realize Andrew is only partially sighted? Oh, THAT 
explains why it's Barbara who always drives the car!
b) There has been a family feud going on for about ten years. As you can 
imagine, THIS makes birthdays and Christmas parties rather tense affairs!
 
Are "that" and "this" interchangeable in the sentences above? My ear 
tells me they aren't, but I can't come up with a reason or something 
resembling a rule.
 
Kiuhnm


Non � lo stesso scelto tra quello e questo in italiano?
 

 Non è lo stesso scelto tra quello e questo in italiano?
 
Nope. I'd use "questo" in both cases.
 
Kiuhnm

):

IMHO they're interchangeable in the two sentences, but with slight nuances 
that are based on the "proximity," perceived or real, of the subject being 
discussed.
 
I'd say in general, "that" can be used all the time. In the second sentence, 
if I'm talking about my own family situation, I would use "this"  instead 
because it's my family.
 
Likewise, in the first example, If, in a lengthy discussion about Andrew, I 
learn about his eyesight among other things relating to him, I might use 
"This" to explain why his wife drives all the time, because we're immersed in 
the topic of Andrew.
 
Not everyone would make such a distinction, but I think it's safe to say the 
two are almost always interchangeable. If in doubt, go with the proximity 
element.
 
I see where, in Italian, "questo" would be used.
 
-- 
Joey from New York
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator,
but among those whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.
   -- WH Auden
 

 I see where, in Italian, "questo" would be used.
 
Ok, thanks.
The Swan says that "/this/ seems to be preferred when the speaker has 
more to say about a new subject of discussion."
I don't know if that's true.
 
Kiuhnm

 I don't know if that's true.
 
Nice little play on words there... :)
 
That ("This"?) might be another difference between BE and AE, but in your 
sentence, would one not expect to hear "I don't know if this is true." 
according to Swan? That ("This"?) is a new element of the topic at hand.
 
I still say "take your pick."


 I don't know if that's true.
 
We /were/ talking about that; /now/ we're talking about this. This is a 
better way to think of it than that.
 
That being said, this subject is still open to discussion. Amen to that.


 That being said, this subject is still open to discussion. Amen to that.
 
This is my only certainty: "That said, ..." is more frequent than "This 
said, ...".
 
Kiuhnm

 I still say "take your pick."
 
I'll post the entire passage, but I don't think it changes anything:
 
"/This/ seems to be preferred when the speaker has more to say about a 
new subject of discussion.
a) So she decided to paint her house pink. This upset the neighbours so 
much that they took her to court, believe it or not. The case came up 
last week...
b) Then in 1917 he met Andrew Lewis. This was a turning point in his 
career: the two men entered into a partnership which lasted until 1946, 
and...
(More natural than ... That was a turning point...)"
 
Kiuhnm


Here's just a theory of mine.
Maybe "that" is preferred over "this" when the speaker refers to a piece 
of information he's just heard or that someone else provided.
If I provided the information, then the information is here and I'll say 
"this". If someone else gave me the information, I'll say "that".
 
Kiuhnm


If you prefer 'questo' in Italian, then perhaps you should stick to 
'this' in English to avoid developing any future personality disorders.
 
In terms of connotation, 'this' brings a virtual element of proximity 
compared to 'that,' and in many contexts the consequence of the choice 
is barely perceptible or irrelevant.
 


There is a certain elegance to that system of belief, given the 
proximity connotation, but don't expect everyone to follow it. I might 
feel emotionally close to an assertion made by someone else because the 
subject evokes some reaction in me, even if that reaction is negative. 
Then I might say that 'this' position has dangerous ramifications. Then 
again, I may want to distance myself emotionally from 'that' position. 
Ultimately, I think that, just as with your choice of 'questo' in 
Italian, the predominant deciding factor is personal preference.
 
Next topic of discussion? 'Andare/venire' versus 'to go/to come' and the 
different preferences in usage by language. Am I coming to Italy or 
going to Italy? Is this a topic that interests you or is that not 
something you want to discuss?

 'this' in English to avoid developing any future personality disorders.
 
Vedi che e' vero che in italiano diciamo "questo" al posto di "that".
:)
 
-- 
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 something you want to discuss?
 
When I was in England some years ago, one of my teachers told me that I 
should avoid saying "I'm coming home" when talking to the people who 
weren't waiting for me at home already, and I should have said "I'm 
going back home". Then, one day he caught me saying "I'm coming home, 
via Chicago" and gave me a disappointed look, but he didn't know I was 
just humming a song.
 


Gi�... durante una scazzottata, "take that!" diventa "prendi questo!"


Mymo, your English is very good, but there are a few subtle errors I 
could point out, if it would be of interest to you. If not, stop reading 
here.
 
You should keep your verb construction parallel. For example,
Not - should avoid saying/should have said
But rather - should avoid saying/ should say
or - shouldn't have said/should have said
 
It might be acceptable in context to use 'should avoid saying/should 
have said', if you had just said the phrase, but without the reader 
knowing that, and thinking it may have been just a general instruction, 
the choice of tenses does not work well.
 
The other oddity is the implication that he recognized words when you 
were humming. He caught you saying, not singing, but you were actually 
humming. As a reader, I am perplexed imagining the event, and it makes 
me wonder if you made up the whole thing.
 

 something you want to discuss?
 
You use "venire" when you move towards someone. I guess there are a few 
exceptions but that's pretty much it.
 
Kiuhnm


... towards someone you're talking to.
- Posso venire da voi?
- Certamente, vieni pure.
   (in both cases: you --> them)
 
Kiuhnm

 me wonder if you made up the whole thing.
 
Oh no, I wouldn't make up such a plain story! I just thought that "humming"
translated as "canticchiare" instead of "canticchiare a bocca chiusa". 
What I
meant in my previous post was "singing to myself (out of tune, so you 
couldn't tell if I was singing or speaking).
 

    "This is what *you* think!"
 
OK, then there is no element of proximity at all in the Italian choice, 
for example proximity of time?
 
An American would say "Three years ago I read Stramonio by Ugo 
Riccarelli. That was a very good novel." It is possible to use "this is" 
because the book still exists, but it's out of print and "that" sounds 
much better in English.
 
Would an Italian say "Tre anni fa ho letto Stramonio da Ugo Riccarell. 
Questo romanzo � molto buono?"  Or would an Italian say "Quel romanzo 
era molto buono." Or would you use "� stato instead and would that 
effect your choice?
 
Then, would the choice change if it were something that happened in the 
past and ended. For example, "Three years ago I went to Italy. That was 
a great trip." Allora, tre anni fa sono andato in Italia. Quello era un 
bel viaggio? O questo?
 

 bel viaggio? O questo?
 
"Tre anni fa sono andato in Italia. E' stato davvero un bel viaggio."
We don't usually say "questo" and "quello" when "it" (which is omitted) 
suffices.
If I was to compare my latest trip with my previous one, though, I might say
   "Quest'anno sono andato in Francia, ma non mi sono trovato molto 
bene. Niente a che vedere col mio precedente viaggio in Italia. Quella 
sě che č stata una bella esperienza!"
 
Kiuhnm

 to discuss?
 
That's quite simple.
Talking with a brasilian you can't say "vengo in Italia".
Talking with an italian you can't say "vado in Italia".
 
Clear enough?
 
Bruno
 
 

 s� che � stata una bella esperienza!"
 
 
OK, then you will use 'quello/a' when the event is some distance away. 
That's (this is) what I was trying to find out. O, questa (ma non 
quella) � l'informazione che volevo.
 

 Talking with an italian you can't say "vado in Italia".
 
I've noticed that Italians are more sensitive to the choice between 
'andare' and 'venire' than Americans are to the choice between 'to go' 
and 'to come'. We may also place more emphasis on the speaker's 
perspective than the listener's. But, ultimately, I think that most 
people choose by listener location. If I'm talking to someone on the 
phone who is at his own home, I'd suggest that I come to his house. But 
if we are together and away from his house, I'd suggest that we go to 
his house. I'd make the same verb choices in Italian.
 
However, if I were speaking to an Italian on the phone and he said "I'm 
going to the United States in September," I would not find it odd. When 
I speak to Italians on the phone and say "vado in Italia in Settembre," 
I am always corrected. It's as if I'm delivering a personal insult.
 

 his house. I'd make the same verb choices in Italian.
 
Yes, but only because you say "noi". It has nothing to do with 
proximity. "Veniamo a casa tua" wouldn't make sense in that context. 
"Andiamo a casa tua" is the only option. But you can't ask "Posso andare 
a casa tua?". That would imply that you know that when you get to his 
house, he will not be at home or with you.
For instance, if your friend's just told you that he's left something 
important at home you could say "Se vuoi lo vado a prendere io a casa 
tua". We use "vado" because you're moving towards the house but not 
towards your friend (who will be waiting for you).
 
Kiuhnm


Did I say something about proximity? If I did, I was mistaken. I did 
speak about proximity in relation to this/that. Regarding andare/venire 
I mentioned perspective. In Italian it appears that the perspective of 
the listener is paramount. Mostly it's the same in English.
 

 and 'to come'. 
 
Well usually something "goes up" and "comes down", on the other hand the sun
"comes up" and "goes down".....
 
G
