Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: The rainbow

Recently, I decided to conclude an English lesson with a "short but
delicious" poem by William Wordsworth, "The Rainbow". For your convenience
(as well as for your pleasure), I'll copy its text below:
My heart leaps up when I behold
 A rainbow in the sky:
So was it when my life began;
So is it now I am a man;
So will it be when I shall grow old,
 Or let me die!
The Child is father of the Man;
And I could wish my days to be
Bound each to each by natural piety.
    I expected my pupils to comment on the beauty of these lines, and yet,
the very first question one of them asked was:
    "Why is there a future in the fifth line in a sentence starting with
"when"? Shouldn't the simple present be used in subordinate clauses?".
    Neither had I noticed, nor expected anything like this. All I could say
at that moment was: "Well, a poem is an artistic creation, grammar rules
should not be applied strictly". Later on ("grammar reflections recollected
in tranquillity" :-)), I wondered about that peculiar usage. I would like
the native speakers of this group to help me with this. Is it just "an
artistic creation", as I supposed, is the future tense due to an archaic
language, or what else is the reason?
    Bye,
           Nicola
--
Multa non quia difficilia sunt non audemus, sed quia non audemus sunt
difficilia (Seneca).

 "when"? Shouldn't the simple present be used in subordinate clauses?".
<Consider yourself lucky mate.
   Your students know their grammar.
    Mine know their beers.
    One the other hand tell them to go to hell.
    Why should one bother with grammar rules in a poem  ?
     Yours
Sal

 writes

Wordsworth is talking about something that WILL HAPPEN in the future, it
is normal to use future or conditional tenses in this situation.  
Tomorrow I may go to the match.
Tomorrow I will go to the match.
In addition, the three situations juxtaposed are:
 present - When I behold ....
 past - So it was....
 future - So it will be...
giving an impression of continuity.
Hope this helps
Cheers
-- 
John G Davies

 giving an impression of continuity.
    Definitely. It works, in this sense. But English grammars stygmatise the
use of the future in subordinate clauses starting with "when". I'm not
criticising Wordsworth, I'm trying to understand if there is an alternative
interpretation to the "artistic creation" one.



Funny old thing, language.


 difficilia (Seneca).
And I still have no idea what Seneca was trying to say... :-)
Cheers,
Loki
-- 
  Brevity is the soul of wit.    W.Shakespeare

, 
nicolan...@libero.it
 says...

The line means the same without the "shall" and it also scans better.
I think Wordsworth made an artistic, if not a grammatical, error here.
"When I shall..." was more common in his day.
Raymot
[[[[[[[[[[

 And I still have no idea what Seneca was trying to say... :-)
    Ah! I have been repeating this a lot of times in other groups, and I now
realise I have never said a word about the beauty of this short quotation
for the benefit of the realmers! Well, a rather free but clear translation
could be: "It is not true that we don't dare do many things because they're
difficult, but it's true that many things are difficult because we don't
dare do them".
    Ave atque vale,
                           Nicolaus


                            Nicolaus
oh great, now I have to ask you what Ave atque vale means...
hehe



Removing shall from the line hardens it, maybe he intentionally meant to soften the line
(like a rainbow).
If I were to ask "what shall we do?", an American would know I was being somewhat
playful
because shall is an old-fashioned word here, as opposed to asking "what should we do?"
which sounds more goal-oriented.  More modern to my ears is "what do we do?"
shortened to "whadah we do?" when spoken quickly.
Rick

 oh great, now I have to ask you what Ave atque vale means...
What if I don't tell you? :-)
I'll give you a hint: if you read this message carefully enough, you'll get it...
GOODBYE,
        Nicola

to lose it.
Now, now, this a wonderfully new development. The way I was taught,
there is _it's_ which is a contraction of the pronoun and verb
combination "it is"; and then there is _its_, which is a possessive
adjective: my for I, your for (funnily enough) you, his and her for he
and she, its for it. 
What is _its'_ all about? What is it, what is it used for (aka what is
its use :-)?)
Ciao,
-- 
Isa
Work like you don't need money,
Love like you've never been hurt,
And dance like no one's watching
http://web.tiscali.it/alfabeto_auschwitz/index.htm

its use :-)
This just goes to show how much confusion there is about the use of the
apostrophe, even Shakespeare didn't always get it right.
The genitive of singular nouns  - The cat's food is in the tin
The genitive of plural nouns    - The cats' food is in the tin
The genitive of pronouns        - doesn't take an apostrophe, his hers,
its, theirs, except one's.
Its' is incorrect.


il 29 Nov 2001 02:20:53 -0800, 
nicolan...@libero.it
 (Nicola
Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata) ha
scritto:

Oh, right, like first thing in the morning I can even get my brain
cells to contemplate thinking, let alone ta actually do some
thinking.... but I think I may have got it...finalmente.
happy trails,
Loki
"Life is one long process of getting tired." Samuel Butler

 Ciao,
It was the possessive its, not a totally different one,
unfortunately. However I can't find an example in print, so perhaps
it was a misunderstanding all those decades ago as I struggled to
understand when and where one put that little apostrophe.


 its use :-)?)
Secondo The Chicago Manual of Style, non esiste. Ci sono dei casi speciali per
cui non si scrive 's' dopo l'apostrofo (per esempio, 'for appearance' sake').



Since I wrote that I had a little 'google' and found that it used to
to be _it's_ for possesive. 
This site has an interesting run down on the changes to English over
the centuries.
http://www.tutorpal.com/Our_English/early_modern_english/dchn_eme.html
But then again another site gave a different comment. Go figure.
Confused but not out,


 Its' is incorrect.
Dear John,
It turns out it is incorrect _now_. It was not incorrect when I was
taught it. I have had confirmation from someone older than me. I
really should have more faith in myself. :-) She also was taught to
put its' for possesive it and only learned of its demise when she
trained much later as an ARLA tutor.
Ciao,


 understand when and where one put that little apostrophe.
i really must stop grovelling since I am right after all. :-) I
should have learnt my lesson by now. We were taught to put an ' after
its. I have independent confirmation from a friend  taught the same
thing in another part of the world entirely, but also a while ago. As
we breathe, our grammar changes. <sigh>
So when you say you want the rules of English, all I can say is
"Which rules, and when?"
Immensely cheered up, :-))))
Loki
-- 
Mens sibi conscia recti.  Virgil

Two voices are there: one is of the deep; 
And one is of an old half-witted sheep
Which bleats articulate monotony,
And Wordsworth, both are thine.
James Kenneth Stephen (1859-1892) Lapsus calami. Sonnet

trained much later as an ARLA tutor.
This is typical of the unstructured nature of the English language.
David Crystal "The English Language" mentions quite a variety of uses
for the apostrophe that seem quite strange now.


, lo...@asgard.nz.invalid says...

Aren't there 14 lines in a sonnet? You're 10 short.
Raymot
[[[[[[[[[[[

 understand when and where one put that little apostrophe.
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl49.htm
Letter of Thoma Jefferson to Ezra Stiles, 1786:
"When we reflect how long we have inhabited those parts of America
which lie between the Alleghaney & the ocean, that no monument has
ever been found in them which indicated the use of iron among its'
aboriginal inhabitants,..."
"The similitude between its' inhabitants & those of Eastern parts of
Asia renders it probable that ours are descended from them or they
from ours."
http://www.vt.edu/vt98/academics/books/ireland/politics
D. O'Cearnaigh, Sinn Fein; International Publicity and Information
Committee
"Without their existence, Britain's capacity to
repress political opposition to its' continued occupation of
Ireland would be considerably diminished."
"Dublin was the subordinate partner and, whilst it
fulfilled its' commitments, the British outrightly refused to
alter any aspect of policy in "Northern Ireland". "
"Britain found guilty of human rights abuses by
the E. C. H. R. In December British government
announces its' decision to derogate from the
E. C. H. R. ruling."
Jefferson was of another time, when *its'* may have been correct.
The Sinn Fein of Northern Ireland -- of the current time -- may have a
different grammar :-)
---
Xakero

> Jefferson was of another time, when *its'* may have been correct.
Hai fatto attenzione al fondo prima d'arrivare alla conclusione? Dal web, non
posso arrivare alla stessa conclusione. Non ho visto mai la scrittura originale.

il Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:48:12 GMT, 
rmot...@powerup.com.au
 (Raymot) ha
scritto:

the sonnet is the reference... <sigh>
Perhaps you haven't realised it's just an excerpt given in a book of
quotations. 


 The Sinn Fein of Northern Ireland -- of the current time -- may have > a different
grammar :-)
They do have trouble with forgetting the past in Northern Ireland, so
we shouldn't be too surprised if that includes grammar. :-)
How come your search engine finds the its'? Google ignores the
apostrophe. 
Grateful Loki


apostrophe.
I have my little tricks, but
one thing I can tell you: I didn't use an Internet search engine for that
particular search.
---
Xakero
  "It's so simple to be wise. Just think
of something stupid to say and then don't say it." _ Sam Levenson
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://usenet.iol.it
 

 particular search.
No clues? 


No clues?
I you must know, at the
bottom of a dusty drawer I found an old CD-ROM of 1994 with the title
"Desktop BookShop", filled with the ASCII text of lots of books that are
off copyright, published by WeMake CDs, Inc., who seem to have gone out of
business, as I cannot find any website related to that company.
---
Xakero


 business, as I cannot find any website related to that company.
Ah, a hoarder, a useful trait.  :-) 
I have a fair few ascii texts on my computer. Project Gutenburg is
good for texts of books on line. I currently have Darwin's Origin of
the species, but at 20,000 lines, I'm not sure I'll read it all. I
still prefer the paper page for reading.
Cheers,


eyes.
Your eyes hold books for you? You must come from the same planet that
Peltio does...
:-)))


Peltio does...
Seeeeeeee, ha ha ha!
BEET...ahem!
CC

BEET...ahem!
Yes, I love you too sweetie.
