Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: "si" in Italian - I still can't understand this!

Hi all,
If any of you tune into it.cultura.linguistica.italiano you might have
seen my posting a few days ago about my confusion with 'si' in Italian.
I would like someone to explain how I should interpret the following
phrase that I found on it.cultura.letteratura.italiano:
"Mi pare di aver letto che Umberto Eco e Antonio Tabucchi non si possono
vedere."
Does this mean:
a) I seem to have read that Umberto Eco and Antonio Tabucchi cannot be
seen.
or
b) I seem to have read that Umberto Eco and Antonio Tabucchi do not see
each other.
I know b) seems the most obvious translation in this case, but my point
is how am I supposed to differentiate between reciprocal 'si' and 'si
passivante' when 2 people are mentioned?  I have similar problems with
the third type of 'si' - impersonal 'si' ("Si dice ...").  Can anyone
give me any 'rule of thumb' to distinguish between the 3 types of si out
there?
Joanna

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 each other.
Neither, it's an idiomatic expression which means they can't stand each
other.
-- 
Mary

 vedere."
It's mine. "Non potersi vedere" is an idiomatic expression meaning that they
can't stand each other. The distinction is always intuitive:
"They can't be seen" ==> it is somewhat meaningless
Have you got more uncertain sentences?
Bye, FB

 It's mine.
Ha ha, so it is!  The reason it caught my eye is because I just bought a
book by Antonio Tabucchi "La Testa Perduta ..." and I am also interested
in buying something of Umberto Eco to read.   I aim to make the Tabucchi
book the first ever Italian novel that I've read!  I've started it and
it seems easy enough to understand.
Anyway, this 'si' thing always bugs me and I'm determined to find a
solution to spotting these contructions easily.  My problem with them is
purely that I have to look over them more than once to grasp the true
meaning.  It bothers me because I could be reading a piece of Italian
and it's riding along quite smoothly when ... Bam!  I have to stop the
'flow' and study the 'si' phrase to work out which meaning it has.  It
pisses me off.  :-p

 vedere."
"Non poter vedere qualcuno/qualcosa" è espressione comune per dire che
qualcuno non ti piace, che ti è antipatico.
Umberto Eco e Antonio Tabucchi non si possono vedere = they don't get on at
all
a) I seem to have read that Umberto Eco and Antonio Tabucchi cannot be
seen
Although technically it could be translated " E.and T. non si possono
vedere", since it can be confused with the meaning above, we'd say "Non
possono essere visti" or "non riesco a vederli", depending on the meaning.
"Non possono essere visti" = it's impossible to see them, they are hidden by
something
"Non riesco a vederli" = I can't find their faces in the crowd, they're too
far, I'm not wearing my glasses....
b) I seem to have read that Umberto Eco and Antonio Tabucchi do not see
each other.
This would be "E.and T.non si vedono" "E.and T. non riescono a vedersi"
Si dice che, si pensa che... = People say that...Everyone says that...
You don't know who exactly is saying that, you're just reporting a common
opinion. Usually followed by "che". There's no subject.
Reciprocal "si" . Some verbs give the idea that the action comes back to the
one who has made the action itself. In English you use possessive, e.g.
Carla e Luisa  si pettinano i capelli =  C.and L. are combing their hair. We
don't say "i nostri capelli" so we have to put "si" to make clear that
they're not combing somebody else's hair :-)
"si" passivante. There's a subject, but it's not the one doing the action,
the sentence is passive.
"si sente il rumore del mare" = io sento il rumore del mare...tutti sentono
il rumore del mare.
Suppose we're sitting on the beach. If I tell you: "sento il rumore del
mare" I'm attracting your attention on me, on my feelings. If I say "si
sente il rumore del mare" I'm calling your attention to the environment, to
the sound itself.
Hope it helps. I've just realized that Italian is a difficult
language...lucky me for learning English!
Ciao
Tabhall

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Io direi che si distingue in base al senso della frase.
Se per esempio fosse
"Sue Storm, la donna invisibile dei Fantastici 4, e l'Uomo invisibile,
non si possono vedere", il senso sarebbe quantomai ambiguo, quindi
potrebbe essere sia A sia B.
Se invece dicessi "Da questa torre vedi bene l'isola di Capri, ma
Ischia e Procida non si possono vedere", il senso sarebbe
indubbiamente quello in A.
HTH
-- 
Enrico

 in buying something of Umberto Eco to read.
When you undestand one of his books throughout, you'll be Italian.
Ciao, FB

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a 0,01% of them!
ciao,
Janis

a 0,01% of them!
Yep. I don't understand an Umberto Eco's book throughout. There are
always words I don't understand or sentences way too cryptic. 
Sebastiano
-- 
Por una mirada, un mondo;
por una sonrisa, un cielo;
por un beso... yo no sé
qué te diera por un beso.