Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: "Didn't" (was: oricine della c morbida ?)

 numme piate 'n giro :-)
Errati entrambi, se posso dire. Pronunci, appunto, [dId@nt]: la seconda [d]
è uguale alla prima, o è il tuo punto di partenza da cui la modifichi.
Dovrebbe essere [dIdn(t)].
Potevo?
Ciao, FB
-- 
No point in crying over spilt husband.
(The Cheap Detective)

Giò
-Tutto ciò che può esistere, esiste.
          (Tullio Regge)

 ti prego essi chiaro. e circonciso, if possibile.
Preferirei essere chiaro e basta.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Aggiornamento del computer completato
Nuova funzionalità: è possibile semplificare la modalità di ricezione degli
aggiornamenti futuri.
(avviso al termine di un aggiornamento per un sistema operativo della
Microsoft)

In entrambi.
lo riformuleresti in italiano, allora, per cortesia? con quei codici
strani non capisco proprio.
se non ce la fai, registrati, cercando di imitare i suoni che vorresti
scrivere nell'alfabeto fonetico


 scrivere nell'alfabeto fonetico
T'ho fornito la pronuncia di "didn't" del Ragazzini 2003, no?
Bye, FB
-- 
"I saw something nasty in the woodshed!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

Giò
How do you expect me to grow, if you don't let me blow?
(Rachel a Ross, Friends 2x19)

 fare non "guardarmi non ti sento"... :-)
Il file audio, il file audio. Nèm, su, dài, però, eh...
Ciao, FB
-- 
"While I'm here, might I make a few changes? I adore my bedroom, but do you
think I could have my curtains washed? I believe they're red, but I should
like to make sure."


Il file audio, il file audio. Nèm, su, dài, però, eh...
Non ho capito un cavolo.
Ma che lingua parli!?
Senti, ma io ti faccio lo stesso effetto? No perché...sennò basta
dirlo :-)))
(che so, per esempio quando mi crogiolo a scrivere un po' romanese...)
PS ricomincia da capo, pliz


 PS ricomincia da capo, pliz
When I reply, you always seem to be born again in the meantime. I said that
I'd already supplied the audio file of "didn't" of the Ragazzini (on iclit,
some hours ago). What's wrong? However, I'd think knowing a little bit of
the IPA, too, wouldn't hurt and is kind of a pre-condition to discuss
phonetics, isn't it?
Bye, FB
-- 
Emily: "I'm going to Europe and I'm going to have a marvellous time. I'm
going to get up at ten and have two glasses of wine at lunch every single
day."
Richard: "Only prostitutes have two glasses of wine at lunch!"
(Gilmore Girls, 501)

phonetics, isn't it?
no. it a thing that comes _after_ the desire to discuss such matters.
if you want, you could express youself in the International Phonetic
Alphabet. Which, by the way, is "international".


 phonetics, isn't it?
Dunno if it's a "precondition", as most English native speakers on this ng
don't know IPA, yet they are pretty useful in such discussions, ain't they?
:)
Anyway, here is Kirshenbaum's IPA/ASCII transcription for [mostly American]
English sounds, as in 
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/english.html
[QUOTE]
/@/:
    schwa (upside-down 'e').
    Used in both unaccented ('b<a>nan<a>', 'c<o>llide', '<a>but'), and
accented ('h<u>mdr<u>m', 'ab<u>t') contexts.
    The IPA symbol is a schwa.
    [British speakers often have different vowels in these two contexts.
The accented one is further back and is written /V/. Its IPA symbol is a
'wedge' or upside-down 'v'.] 
/l-/, /n-/, /m-/, /N-/:
    Superscript schwa preceding consonant.
    As in 'batt<le>', 'mitt<en>', 'eat<en>'. Signifies that the consonant
is pronounced as a syllable by itself.
    The IPA symbol is a vertical bar below the consonant. 
/R/:
    shwa followed by 'r'.
    'op<er>ation', 'f<ur>th<er>', '<ur>g<er>'.
    The IPA symbol is a schwa with a hook. 
/&/:
    short a.
    'm<a>t', 'm<a>p', 'm<a>d', 'g<a>g, 'sn<a>p', 'p<a>tch'.
    The IPA symbol is an 'a-e' digraph. 
/eI/:
    long a ('a' with bar above).
    'd<ay>', 'f<a>de', 'd<a>te', '<a>orta', 'dr<a>pe', 'c<a>pe'. 
/A/:
    a with diaeresis (two dots) above.
    'b<o>ther', 'c<o>t', and, with most American speakers, 'f<a>ther',
'c<a>rt'.
    The IPA symbol is a script 'a'. 
/a/:
    a with dot above.
    'f<a>ther' as pronounced by speakers who do not rhyme it with bother. 
/AU/:
    a followed by u with dot.
    'n<ow>', 'l<ou>d', '<ou>t'. 
/b/:
    '<b>a<b>y', 'ri<b>'.
/tS/:
    ch. The dictionary notes "(actually, this sound is \t\ + \sh\)"
    '<ch>in', 'na<tu>re' (/'neI tSR/). In IPA transcription, this is
sometimes spelled as 'c with hacek'. 
/d/:
    '<d>i<d>', 'a<dd>er'.
/E/:
    short e.
    'b<e>t', 'b<e>d', 'p<e>ck'.
    The IPA symbol is a lower-case epsilon. It is sometimes spelled with a
small capital E. 
/i/:
    long e ('e' with bar above).
    'b<ea>t', 'nosebl<ee>d', '<e>venl<y>', '<ea>s<y>'. 
/f/:
    '<f>i<f>ty', 'cu<ff>'
/g/:
    '<g>o', 'bi<g>', '<g>ift'.
/h/:
    '<h>at', 'a<h>ead'.
/hw/:
    '<wh>ale' as pronounced by those who do not have the same
    pronunciation for both 'whale' and 'wail'. 
/I/:
    short i.
    't<i>p', 'ban<i>sh', 'act<i>ve'.
    The IPA symbol is a small capital I or a lower-case iota. 
/aI/:
    long i ('i' with bar above).
    's<i>te', 's<i>de', 'b<uy>', 'tr<i>pe'. 
/dZ/:
    j. The dictionary notes "(actually, this sound is \d\ + \zh\)"
    '<j>ob', '<g>em', 'e<dge>', '<j>oin', '<j>u<dge'. 
/k/:
    '<k>in', '<c>oo<k>', 'a<che>'.
/x/:
    k with bar below. (Same as /C/.)
    German 'Bu<ch>'. 
/C/:
    k with bar below. (Same as /x/.)
    German 'i<ch>'. 
/l/:
    '<l>i<l>y', 'poo<l>'.
/m/:
    '<m>ur<m>ur', 'di<m>', 'ny<m>ph'.
/n/:
    '<n>o', 'ow<n>'.
/<vowel>~/:
    superscript 'n'.
    "indicates that a preceeding vowel or diphthong is pronounced with the
nasal passages open as in French 'un bon vin blanc' /W~ bo~ va~ blA~/"
    The IPA diacritic is a tilde above the vowel. 
/N/:
    eng ('n' with a tail).
    'si<ng>' /sIN/, 'si<ng>er' /'sIN R/, 'fi<ng>er' /'fIN gR/, 'i<n>k'
/iNk/
    The IPA symbol is an eng. 
/oU/:
    long o ('o' with bar above).
    'b<o>ne', 'kn<ow>', 'b<eau>'. 
/O/:
    'o' with dot above.
    's<aw>', '<a>ll', 'gn<aw>'.
    The IPA symbol is a small open 'o' or upside-down 'c'. 
/W/:
    o-e digraph
    French 'b<oeu>f', german 'H<o:>lle.
    The IPA symbol is an o-e digraph. 
/Oi/:
    'o' with dot above followed by 'i'.
    'c<oi>n', 'destr<oy>'. [The dictionary also lists 's<awi>ng', but I
pronounce that as two separate syllables /'sO IN/.] 
/p/:
    '<p>e<pp>er', 'li<p>'.
/r/:
    '<r>ed', 'ca<r>', '<r>a<r>ity'.
/s/:
    '
our<ce>', 'le<ss>'.
/S/:
    sh.
    '<sh>y', 'mi<ssi>on', 'ma<ch>ine', 'spe<ci>al'.
    The IPA symbol is an esh: a tall, pulled 's' or long, barless 'f'. 
/t/:
    '<t>ie', 'a<tt>ack'.
/T/:
    th.
    '<th>in'. 'e<th>er'.
    The IPA symbol as a lower-case theta. 
/D/:
    'th' with bar below.
    '<th>en', 'ei<th>er', '<th>is'.
    The IPA symbol is an eth, sort of a script 'd' with the bar crossed. 
/u/:
    'u' with diaeresis (two dots) above.
    'r<u>le', 'y<ou>th', 'union' /'jun j@n/, 'few' /fju/. 
/U/:
    'u' with dot above.
    'p<u>ll', 'w<oo>d', 'b<oo>k', 'curable' /'kjUr @ b@l/.
    The IPA symbol is a small letter upsilon. A small capital U or closed
lower-case omega is also used. 
/y/:
    u-e digraph.
    German 'f<u:>llen', 'h<u:>bsch', French 'r<ue>'. 
/v/:
    '<v>i<v>id', 'gi<ve>'.
/w/:
    '<w>e', 'a<w>ay'.
/j/:
    '<y>ard', '<y>oung', 'cue' /kju/, 'union' /'jun y@n/;
/<cons>;/:
    superscript 'y' following consonant;
    "indicates that during the articulation of the sound represented by the
preceding character, the front of the tongue has substantially the position
it has for the articulation of the first sound of 'yard', as in French
'digne' /din;/."
    The IPA diacritic is a superscript 'j' following or hook below the
consonant. 
/ju/:
    '<you>th', '<u>nion', 'c<ue>', 'f<ew>', 'm<u>te'.
/jU/:
    'c<u>rable', 'f<u>ry'.
/z/:
    '<z>one', 'rai<se>'.
/Z/:
    zh.
    'vi<si>on', 'azure' /'aZ R/.
    The IPA symbol is a yogh: like a flat-topped '3' lowered so that the
top is the height of that of a 'z'. 
[UNQUOTE]

 Alphabet. Which, by the way, is "international".
I do. Of course, lots of newsreaders seem to have trouble reading the IPA,
so I use the Kirshenbaum ASCII rendering, one of the many (sampa etc.)
Bye, FB
-- 
"If you followed me here, how did you contrive to be here before me?"
"I followed you... very fast."
(What's New Pussycat)

 [UNQUOTE]
[R] is one of the symbols I don't use: there's [3(:/r)]; I haven't yet
understood whether it also represents non-rhotic [3:], and if it does, it's
unclear whether one is representing a rhotic or non-rhotic pronunciation
unless one says so.
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" apparso su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 unless one says so.
Non so di preciso, comunque mi pare utile per trascrivere "bird" :)
-- 
Enrico C
...still legal tender...

so I use the Kirshenbaum ASCII rendering, one of the many (sampa etc.)
tanto è inutile, se t'ho già detto che non ti seguo, è inutile che
continui a dimostrare una tua superiorità conoscitiva in questo campo.
cosa che ti è già riconosciuta.


 Non so di preciso, comunque mi pare utile per trascrivere "bird" :)
Anche se il [3] non viene usato nella trascrizione ASCII IPA dei suoni
dell'inglese americano di Kirshenbaum
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/english.html
 , che si basa sui simboli di
pronuncia del Merriam-Webster.
"The table is taken from the 'Pronunciation Symbols' page of
Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary."
E sul Merriam-Webster troviamo:
http://www.m-w.com/pronsymbols.htm
 
\&\ as a and u in  abut
 
\&r\as ur/er in further 
Main Entry: bird
Pronunciation: 'b&rd


 \&r\as ur/er in further 
Così nel M-W. Nel Kirshenbaum, [&] ha una pronuncia univoca, cioè la "a" di
"back" in quasi tutte le varietà d'inglese (dove non dicono [a] o [E]). [1]
[1] Uno che dice [E] è quel pazzoide che si vede la sera su La7 e va a
scassare i maroni ai coccodrilli.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 "back" in quasi tutte le varietà d'inglese (dove non dicono [a] o [E]). [1]
Sì, certo, i simboli scelti sono diversi. Ma lo schema è lo stesso, mi
pare. Per la vocale di "bird", "fur", "urge", sia Kirshenbaum che il
Merriam-Webster usano scwha (seguito da "r", trattandosi della pronuncia
americana), e non un simbolo a parte.
 
Kirshenbaum  usa  /R/, 


 americana), e non un simbolo a parte.
Anche l'Oxford English Dictionary. (faccina sorridente) Mi pare che il M-W
usi [&] per [V] quando č tonico e [@] quando č atono. Scusami se non ho
ancora afferrato: ho questa sensazione.
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Qualcuno, meglio se un parente, dovrebbe comunicare a Xxxxxxx Xxxxxx che
scrivere libri non fa per lui. Per il suo bene (e il nostro, soprattutto)."
(Recensione di Antonio D'Orrico sul Corriere della Sera Magazine)

 ancora afferrato: ho questa sensazione.
Però il M-W (e Kirshenbaum) usano un unico simbolo (anche se non lo stesso)
per indicare entrambi i suoni vocalici di "further".
M-W:
\&r\ as ur/er in further 
Kirshenbaum  /R/, 
    shwa followed by 'r'.
    f<ur>th<er>
===
Già che ci siamo, ne approfitto per un piccolo test dell'IPA Unicode
(dunque non ASCII ma Utf-8, si legge con un reader compatibile e gli
opportuni font installati) 
===
IPA (Phonetic Alphabet)
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/ipa-unicode.htm#display
Alphabetic
(excluding the standard characters a-z)
Symbol 	decimal 	hex 	value
ɑ 	593 	0251 	open back unrounded
ɐ 	592 	0250 	open-mid schwa
ɒ 	594 	0252 	open back rounded
æ 	230 	00E6 	raised open front unrounded
ɓ 	595 	0253 	vd bilabial implosive
ʙ 	665 	0299 	vd bilabial trill
β 	946 	03B2 	vd bilabial fricative
ɔ 	596 	0254 	open-mid back rounded
ɕ 	597 	0255 	vl alveolopalatal fricative
ç 	231 	00E7 	vl palatal fricative
ɗ 	599 	0257 	vd alveolar implosive
ɖ 	598 	0256 	vd retroflex plosive
ð 	240 	00F0 	vd dental fricative
ʤ 	676 	02A4 	vd postalveolar affricate
ə 	601 	0259 	schwa
ɘ 	600 	0258 	close-mid schwa
ɚ 	602 	025A 	rhotacized schwa
ɛ 	603 	025B 	open-mid front unrounded
ɜ 	604 	025C 	open-mid central
ɝ 	605 	025D 	rhotacized open-mid central
ɞ 	606 	025E 	open-mid central rounded
ɟ 	607 	025F 	vd palatal plosive
ʄ 	644 	0284 	vd palatal implosive
ɡ 	609 	0261 	vd velar plosive
(but the IPA has ruled that an ordinary g is also acceptable)
ɠ 	608 	0260 	vd velar implosive
ɢ 	610 	0262 	vd uvular plosive
ʛ 	667 	029B 	vd uvular implosive
ɦ 	614 	0266 	vd glottal fricative
ɧ 	615 	0267 	vl multiple-place fricative
ħ 	295 	0127 	vl pharyngeal fricative
ɥ 	613 	0265 	labial-palatal approximant
ʜ 	668 	029C 	vl epiglottal fricative
ɨ 	616 	0268 	close central unrounded
ɪ 	618 	026A 	lax close front unrounded
ʝ 	669 	029D 	vd palatal fricative
ɭ 	621 	026D 	vd retroflex lateral
ɬ 	620 	026C 	vl alveolar lateral fricative
ɫ 	619 	026B 	velarized vd alveolar lateral
ɮ 	622 	026E 	vd alveolar lateral fricative
ʟ 	671 	029F 	vd velar lateral
ɱ 	625 	0271 	vd labiodental nasal
ɯ 	623 	026F 	close back unrounded
ɰ 	624 	0270 	velar approximant
ŋ 	331 	014B 	vd velar nasal
ɳ 	627 	0273 	vd retroflex nasal
ɲ 	626 	0272 	vd palatal nasal
ɴ 	628 	0274 	vd uvular nasal
ø 	248 	00F8 	front close-mid rounded
ɵ 	629 	0275 	rounded schwa
ɸ 	632 	0278 	vl bilabial fricative
θ 	952 	03B8 	vl dental fricative
œ 	339 	0153 	front open-mid rounded
ɶ 	630 	0276 	front open rounded
ʘ 	664 	0298 	bilabial click
ɹ 	633 	0279 	vd (post)alveolar approximant
ɺ 	634 	027A 	vd alveolar lateral flap
ɾ 	638 	027E 	vd alveolar tap
ɻ 	635 	027B 	vd retroflex approximant
ʀ 	640 	0280 	vd uvular trill
ʁ 	641 	0281 	vd uvular fricative
ɽ 	637 	027D 	vd retroflex flap
ʂ 	642 	0282 	vl retroflex fricative
ʃ 	643 	0283 	vl postalveolar fricative
ʈ 	648 	0288 	vl retroflex plosive
ʧ 	679 	02A7 	vl postalveolar affricate
ʉ 	649 	0289 	close central rounded
ʋ 	651 	028B 	vd labiodental approximant
ʊ 	650 	028A 	lax close back rounded
ʌ 	652 	028C 	open-mid back unrounded
ɣ 	611 	0263 	vd velar fricative
ɤ 	612 	0264 	close-mid back unrounded
ʍ 	653 	028D 	vl labial-velar fricative
χ 	967 	03C7 	vl uvular fricative
ʎ 	654 	028E 	vd palatal lateral
ʏ 	655 	028F 	lax close front rounded
ʑ 	657 	0291 	vd alveolopalatal fricative
ʐ 	656 	0290 	vd retroflex fricative
ʒ 	658 	0292 	vd postalveolar fricative
ʔ 	660 	0294 	glottal plosive
ʡ 	673 	02A1 	vd epiglottal plosive
ʕ 	661 	0295 	vd pharyngeal fricative
ʢ 	674 	02A2 	vd epiglottal fricative
ǀ 	448 	01C0 	dental click
ǁ 	449 	01C1 	alveolar lateral click
ǂ 	450 	01C2 	alveolar click
ǃ 	451 	01C3 	retroflex click
Spacing diacritics and suprasegmentals
# To study these, you may find it helpful to set your browser text size to
Largest.
Symbol 	decimal 	hex 	value
ˈ 	712 	02C8 	(primary) stress mark
ˌ 	716 	02CC 	secondary stress
ː 	720 	02D0 	length mark NB: there is a bug in some versions of MS
IExplorer that causes this character not to display. It is probably best to
use a simple colon instead.
ˑ 	721 	02D1 	half-length
ʼ 	700 	02BC 	ejective
ʴ 	692 	02B4 	rhotacized
ʰ 	688 	02B0 	aspirated
ʱ 	689 	02B1 	breathy-voice-aspirated
ʲ 	690 	02B2 	palatalized
ʷ 	695 	02B7 	labialized
ˠ 	736 	02E0 	velarized
ˤ 	740 	02E4 	pharyngealized
˞ 	734 	02DE 	rhotacized
# Note the ready-made characters ɚ 602 025A (combining ə 601 0259 and ˞ 734
02DE) and ɝ 605 025D (combining ɜ 604 025C and ˞ 734 02DE).
Non-spacing diacritics and suprasegmentals
# As you can see, several of these are unsatisfactory, particularly in
smaller sizes. They are shown here with an appropriate supporting base
character. When composing a text in HTML, enter the diacritic after the
base character, thus (voiceless n, n̥) n&#805;. The browser automatically
backspaces the diacritic, but by a constant amount, which may or may not
produce a satisfactory result.
Symbol 	decimal 	hex 	value
n̥ d̥ 	805 	0325 	voiceless
ŋ̊ 	778 	030A 	voiceless (use if character has descender)
b̤ a̤ 	804 	0324 	breathy voiced
t̪ d̪ 	810 	032A 	dental
s̬ t̬ 	812 	032C 	voiced
b̰ a̰ 	816 	0330 	creaky voiced
t̺ d̺ 	826 	033A 	apical
t̼ d̼ 	828 	033C 	linguolabial
t̻ d̻ 	827 	033B 	laminal
t̚ 	794 	031A 	not audibly released
ɔ̹ 	825 	0339 	more rounded
ẽ 	771 	0303 	nasalized
ɔ̜ 	796 	031C 	less rounded
u̟ 	799 	031F 	advanced
e̠ 	800 	0320 	retracted
ë 	776 	0308 	centralized
l̴ n̴ 	820 	0334 	velarized or pharyngealized
ɫ 	619 	026B 	(ready-made combination, dark l)
e̽ 	829 	033D 	mid-centralized
e̝ ɹ̝ 	797 	031D 	raised
m̩ n̩ l̩ 	809 	0329 	syllabic
e̞ β̞ 	798 	031E 	lowered
e̯ 	815 	032F 	non-syllabic
e̘ 	792 	0318 	advanced tongue root
e̙ 	793 	0319 	retracted tongue root
ĕ 	774 	0306 	extra-short
e̋ 	779 	030B 	extra high tone
é 	769 	0301 	high tone
ē 	772 	0304 	mid tone
è 	768 	0300 	low tone
ȅ 	783 	030F 	extra low tone
Arrows
Symbol 	decimal 	hex 	value
↓ 	8595 	2193 	downstep
↑ 	8593 	2191 	upstep
→ 	8594 	2192 	(becomes, is realized as — not recognized by the IPA)
↗ 	8599 	2197 	global rise
↘ 	8600 	2198 	global fall
===
[Unicode Message / Messaggio Unicode]

 opportuni font installati)
[...]
Vedo tutto perfettamente, in Dialog, e con il font Arial Unicode MS
presente, usando la visualizzazione con caratteri proporzionali (non
monospaced).


 ===
Tutto bene, mi pare.
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Hey, Mr. Gilmore. Best wish... Congrat... Nice suit!"
(Gilmore Girls - 513)