Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Happy Birthday

Hey....is anyone going to say happy birthday to the country that
brought you google, Microsoft, The Mamas and Papas, Santana (OK...know
you know how old I am!) and a lot of other good things!
Please!
thank you
ari

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:1120488974.5...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

From California to the New York island... 

sorry, lapsus plumae.   I meant NOW you know.


Microsoft?
This is a use of the word "good" with which I was previously unfamiliar
:-)
-- 
Mary

 brought you google, Microsoft, The Mamas and Papas, Santana...
... and the slaughter of the native americans... and the atom bombs over 
Hiroshima and Nagasaki... and all the south american dictatorships... and 
countless political murders all over the globe... and Ustica and the 
Cermis... and the end of the authority of the United Nations... and the 
return to the systematic use of torture... and the return to the systematic 
use of war...
Sorry, in my opinion there is nothing to celebrate... :-( (and now you know 
how naive I am: 40 years old and still thinking that the things I mentioned 
above are Bad and unforgivable...)
Rincewind
-- 
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to do the bidding of the 
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being 
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the 
country to danger. It works the same in any country. ~ Hermann Goering at 
the Nurember Trial



Happy Birthday.
Buon 4 luglio!
Sebastiano

 above are Bad and unforgivable...)
What should we say about ourselves, having given birth to Fascism, and
having discovered democracy a couple of centuries after the "evil States"?
-- 
Enrico C
...still legal tender...



Happy birthday to the land of the free, home of the brave

 having discovered democracy a couple of centuries after the "evil States"?
Well, if "democracy" means declaring a holy war against the muslims or 
invading other countries to steal their oil (killing a few thousand innocent 
civilians in the process) it is not something of which I am very proud, and 
I can't really see how it is so different from Fascism.
The Nazis used to say: "Ten Italians for one German".
The Twin Towers attack killed some 3.000 American civilians: the American 
retaliation has killed some 30.000 Iraqi civilians.
Where exactly is the difference between the Nazi way and the American way?


 that is more than enough to amend much of the evil you attibute to the US.
I had not mentioned it, but that is something that belongs in my list of Bad 
Things: bringing down a legitimate government is not a Good Thing.
It was *not* a Good Thing when they supported (well, the right word would be 
"organized") the military coup that overthrew Allende in September 11, 1973.
It was *not* a Good Thing when they tried to invade Cuba.
It is *not* a Good Thing that they give asylum to a terrorist who, by his 
own admission, has put a bomb on a Cuban airplane killing tens of civilians.
All of the above are Bad Things in my opinion.
Rincewind
 

> US.
Oh, dimenticavo: il crollo del regime sovietico e' stato la causa delle piu' 
devastanti guerre della seconda meta' del XX secolo, nelle quali sono morte 
centinaia di migliaia di persone e sono state commesse atrocita' indicibili.
Saro' strano, ma io continuo a pensare che la vita umana sia piu' importante 
della denominazione di un regime.
Non me ne frega un emerito ca**o se un regime si chiama Comunista o Fascista 
o Pippo: se la sua caduta produce centinaia di migliaia di morti innocenti 
preferisco che resti in piedi.
Rincewind

 centinaia di migliaia di persone e sono state commesse atrocita' indicibili.
You have a point there: killings under Stalin were far less annoying,
weren't they.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
Just as I thought. Another test that could have cost us our lives, saved
only by the fact that I am enormously well-bred.
(Murder by Death)

 to take their place
Cazzo, meno male, Rincewind... T'immagini altri quarant'anni sotto il Pene
urlante e ottimista? 
Tanto per cominciare, che non sei ebreo si vede lontano un miglio.
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
«"Plano su di lei come un paradiseo imbottito di Taurus... Faccio guizzare
la lingua come un pitone ubriaco". Prendo questo libro, lo butto nel
cestino.»
(Recensione di Antonio D'Orrico sul Corriere della Sera Magazine)

 comunismo ha causato
La propaganda anticomunista e' *molto* potente!
Questi famosi 80 milioni di morti di cui parli saltano per caso fuori dal 
famoso Libro Nero del Comunismo, grande successo editoriale dell'inizio 
degli anni 80 molto osannato nei paesi democratici e capitalisti?
Hai mai provato a leggerlo davvero e verificare *come sono stati calcolati* 
quegli 80 milioni?
L'economista Amartya Sen l'ha fatto, e ha vinto il premio Nobel con uno 
studio in cui applicava lo stesso modello di calcolo all'India capitalista 
dimostrando che se il comunismo ha ucciso 80 milioni di persone il 
capitalismo nella sola India democratica ne ha uccise molte di piu'.
O forse vivi nella pericolosa illusione che Stalin abbia messo 80 milioni di 
persone nei campi di concentramento o altre ridicole scemenze del genere?
Rincewind

 weren't they.
Guarda che il crollo dell'Unione Sovietica e' avvenuto alla fine degli anni 
80 mentre Stalin e' morto negli anni 50.
Vuoi dire che l'URSS negli anni 80 doveva essere punita per cio che un 
dittatore pazzo aveva fatto 30 anni prima?
O forse credi che la situazione nell'URSS di Gorbaciov fosse analoga a 
quella dell'URSS di Stalin?
Rincewind

 persone nei campi di concentramento o altre ridicole scemenze del genere?
Facciamo che erano un quarto? O un ventesimo? Chi se ne importa. Di certo
non li mandava a giocare a palle di neve.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 Please!
Happy Birthday America!
Tschuess,
Enrico il Pentolaio.


We aren't perfect, but...
You forget that we conquered the poor Japanese and made them
kow-tow to us, and they no longer have any influence in the world,
under the total domination of the US.
Look at the retaliation we brought against Germany, reduced now
to a servile impoverished state with no influence.
And South Korea, unlike the enlightened North, has suffered terribly
under American domination, and is ready to submit to the
enlightened Kim Jung Il.
Don't forget the millions of Mexicans who have crossed the border
illegally in the last ten years, pretending to be Americans, while
really waiting for the word to start the revolution against Yanqui
Imperialism.
And don't forget how we destroyed those beautiful beaches in
Normandy, strewing them with corpses.
Or the 60 Allied cemeteries in Italy, where not a few misguided
American conscripts lie, all for a cause in which they did not
believe.
Look at the millions of Vietnamese, Russians, Chinese, and
Koreans we have imported in the last 25 years as slaves, against
their will, who now live in dire poverty, waiting to return to the
lands of
their birth.
 I've heard Orianna Fallaci's opinion. Now I've heard yours.
I see now why she lives in New York, and why Calvino considered
New York his favorite city.
Evviva l'America! Evviva l'Italia!
Joe from Massachusetts
.

Giò
-Tutto ciò che può esistere, esiste.
          (Tullio Regge)


Speaking of Tom Cruise and coincidences in time, this month
there has been an unusual turn of events.
First, "Duke" Cunningham, who is the man whose life inspired the
film "Top Gun", which starred Tom Cruise, is being investigated
for corruption.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/01/cunningham.fed.ap/
Then, in the same month as his hero "Duke" Cunningham fell from
grace, a second hero, Tom Cruise, fell from grace, due to a lot
of bad publicity, not for his new movie ("Invasion of My Friends
the Aliens"?) or his new girl friend, but because of his strange
outbursts.
Tom believes in aliens, and anyone who doesn't is a fool.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Movies/06/29/cruise.aliens.reut/
Tom doesn't believe in post-partum depression, and publicly
criticized actress Brooke Shields for taking anti-depressants after
the birth of her child, and for making commercials to promote
awareness of the malady. "You can use vitamins to help a woman
through those things", says Tom.
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/0523cruise.html
Tom told TV host Matt Lauer, "You don't know the history of
psychiatry. I do," Cruise said, calling psychiatric disorders
personal failings.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/06/24/people.cruise.ap/
All this from a man who pays Scientology money to hook him up
to a lie detector, so he can learn to "clear" his mind of anything
which might contradict Scientology. I think Tom is suffering from
a severe "personal failing".
Psychology and Psychiatry may be imperfect Science, but
Scientology is on the way to becoming perfect Science Fiction,
with the help of people like Tom.
(I did like Tom Cruise's film "Born on the Fourth of July",
and recommend it).
Joe from Massachusetts

 believe.
Oh, I am quite certain that they sincerely believed that they were doing it 
to help us poor Europeans get rid of Hitler.
That's what makes it so sad: they died because they were lied to by their 
government, exactly like the ones that are dying right now in Iraq.
You should be more pissed than I am: it was *your* friends and relatives (or 
your parents' friends and relatives: I don't know how old you are) who died 
on those beautiful beaches in Normandy thinking that they were doing 
something good and heroic while they were actually just helping their 
government to extend its power on the most strategically important area of 
the globe. And now it's your friends and relatives who are dying in Iraq 
because they were told that Saddam had WMDs and that he was an ally of Bin 
Laden and that if he was not stopped the US would suffer more deadly 
attacks.
These have all been proved to be lies and yet most americans still hide 
behind sentences like "we are not perfect, but everybody else is worse than 
us" instead of "we did an unforgivable mistake that cost thousands of lives: 
now our duty should be to press on our government to put an end to this war 
and after that we should make an effort to be more informed about the people 
we put in charge to avoid being swindled again".
Everybody makes mistakes, but only the arrogant never admits them and keeps 
repeating them over and over again.
Rincewind

 to help us poor Europeans get rid of Hitler.
You know what? I happen to agree with them. Perhaps you would have
preferred Hitler to the imperfect democracy we have today. I think the US
interferes a lot, but it's still a million times better than Hitler, don't
you think? Maybe ten thousand times worse than the best possible world, but
that's another story.
[...]
FB
-- 
"Melissa [P.] spazzola Thomas Fazi"
(notizia apparsa su it.cultura.libri)

 you think?
Again, the point is not which is better: the point is *why* the American 
government decided to sacrifice thousands of their men to get rid of Hitler.
Some think they did it out of altruism.
I think they did it because it was in their own interest.
I am glad that one of the collateral effects of the American egoism was that 
now the Nazis have gone, but I also think that if the Americans had not come 
the Nazi Empire would still have collapsed within 5, maybe 10 years (but 
this is the realm of fantapolitics so it's pointless ti discuss it).
Rincewind

 now our duty should be to press on our government to put an end to this war
Così vorresti che i militari americani se ne andassero subito
dall'Iraq, poichè gli iraqeni hanno dimostrato, già da diversi mesi,
che possono mantenere la pace e l'ordine pubblico da soli.
Uhm...
Tschuess,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 this is the realm of fantapolitics so it's pointless ti discuss it).
Ten years? I suppose you hadn't been born yet. Perhaps the 14.000.000 Jews
there are today would have been 14, _to begin with_, but what can you do
about it...
You seem to deal with history as if it were just written in books. You must
consider that history is about real people. You cannot study an event in
the long run only.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Qualcuno, meglio se un fidanzato, dovrebbe comunicare a Xxxxxxx Xxxxx che
scrivere libri non fa per lei. Per il suo bene (e il nostro, soprattutto)."


 settembre?
There is obviously some serious problem with my usage of the English 
language, so I will switch to Italian.
Io ho scritto: "were exactly *as* justified *as*...".
Non ho scritto: "were justified".
La mia scarsa conoscenza dell'Inglese mi fa pensare che la frase: "A is as 
justified as B" implichi:
1. se B e' giustificato allora anche A e' giustificato
2. se B non e' giustificato allora anche A non e' giustificato.
Io credo che la cosiddetta Guerra al Terrorismo sia *ingiustificata* e 
credevo che questa mia convinzione fosse molto evidente. Ne consegue che se 
gli attachi dell'undici settembre erano "as justified as", anch'essi sono 
*ingiustificati*.
Ripeto: cio' che volevo affermare e' che se si considera giustificata la 
guerra al terrorismo sono giustificati anche gli attentati dell'undici 
settembre, se invece si considera ingiustificata la guerra al terrorismo 
sono ingiustificati anche gli attentati dell'undici settembre.
Visto che questo e' un ng di linguistica, qualcuno piu' esperto di me 
potrebbe gentilmente confermarmi se cio' che ho scritto in inglese 
corrisponde a cio' che ho spiegato in italiano?
E qualcuno esperto di italiano potrebbe confermarmi che dalla mie 
affermazioni precedenti risulta chiaro che io ritengo ingiustificati *sia la 
guerra al terrorismo sia gli attacchi terroristici*?
One final note: this thread is obviously *very* OT, so I'm not going to 
contribute further to it.
This has always been my policy about political OTs in every ng in which I 
use to post: I say my opinion, if needed I reply to make it more clear and 
then I stop. I have no problem with letting someone else have the last word. 
In this particular case I can still consider replying to one more post by 
Joe, because, as FB has pointed out, he may have been offended by my 
wrong(?) usage of the word "you" in my preceding post. After that I will 
have nothing more to say in this thread.
Rincewind

and recommend it).
I'm far away outside from these matters, which you wrote about, and
which I don't understand at all, as I've heard them for the very first
time (excluding Tom's involvment into Scientology, which I had almost
forgotten).


 mentality.
"Tom crede negli alieni, e chi non ci crede è scemo".
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Enjoying yourself, Elfine?"
"It's going to be such fun!"
"No, it's going to be amusing or diverting, not such fun, darling."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

"Tom crede negli alieni, e chi non ci crede è scemo".
come ho fatto a non vederla...
vabbè. poi sarebbe eventualmente dovuta essere "anyone who isn't a
fool". il doesn't non c'entrava niente...
vabbè. grazie per avermi aperto gli occhi, cmq :)


government decided to sacrifice thousands of their men to get rid of Hitler.
It was Hitler that declared war on the US, that's why.

 ari
For a sort of ..emh.. "par condicio" let's also remember the 200th
anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar and its recent fancy and
"diplomatic friendly" celebrations.
Myself, I've been suggested to celebrate with a pint of
'Nelson's Revenge', but I couldn't find it. What a shame...
Gennaro 

 that is more than enough to amend much of the evil you attibute to the US.
Do you think so? Well, I don't!
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
 segnala gli abusi ad 
ab...@newsland.it

 Uhm...
They should not be there, they should have never been there. And
definitely (and usually) they are in a foreign land, which does not belong
to them. But, you know, they like so much that black slimy liquid in the
Middle East, or "South-East Asia", as they now democratically and
politically correctly say to suggest they are not colonisers. The only way
to make them go would be to get rid of that oil for free. Think if Iraq
had been in the centre of Africa.
P.S. since you are such a supporter of the American way, you should also
take the press freedom which is there and in all other western countries
as a role model. Don't just cling on that sanctimonious and provincial
Italian press subjected to the current Berlusconian regime. If you listen
to some debate even on the BBC, you will find out that the Bush government
is not unquestionable because they have built a world empire. Someone is
paying the price of all that well-being, even though it might appear like
heresy to Bruno Vespa fans


 ;)
Must this gratitude last forever?
Must we live on our knees until the end of time? It's been 50 years ago...
When can we assume it to be fulfilled and start to live as equally
relevant countries?
-- 
Ciao,
 Luigi

 Must this gratitude last forever?
Sì, la nostra gratitudine agli americani di 60 anni fa dovrà durare in 
eterno.
Ma la criminale amministrazione attuale non ha nessun merito e non può 
pretendere nessuna gratitudine, salvo quella tutta personalissima del 
Berluska.
Roger 



Gratitude doesn't entail supporting the US (governments -- incidentally...)
in every deed of theirs, of course. Anyway I don't understand what
gratitude to a country is supposed to mean: I'd rather be grateful to
people; not their descendants, by the way.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

 relevant countries?
By the way, we already celebrate the liberation. Only, it doesn't happen
to be on the 4th July. So no happy-birthday wishes or present, sorry.


 people; not their descendants, by the way.
and here we are being asked to be grateful even to their ancestors...


 and here we are being asked to be grateful even to their ancestors...
Well, I am. I didn't wish to appear to agree with LoneStar.
Bye, FB
-- 
"It sounds appalling!"
"Interesting and appalling. The others just sound appalling!"


 Well, I am. I didn't wish to appear to agree with LoneStar.
Well, you were arguing you'd rather not be grateful to the liberators'
descendants, I specified here we are being asked to be grateful to the
liberators' ancestors, that is those who witnessed the declaration of
independence in 1776. I just wanted to make notice we are missing the
point in both cases, because celebrating the 4th July does not mean being
grateful to the WW2 liberators. Unless of course you usually celebrate the
4 July...


 4 July...
In the same vein, recognizing the 4th of July is not a celebration of US 
foreign policy in the 21st century. It is the day that symbolizes the birth 
of a nation that fought to free itself from the tyranny of a colonialist 
monarchy and formed one of the early pluracracies in the modern world. You 
would have a more valid point to criticize the colonalization of the 
Americas (not just the US) by European settlers, but that, in a way, is our 
joint history. Of course every country has a history of conquest and the 
expulsion of one group by another. I suppose at some point you have to draw 
the line and say that it is not acceptable in the modern world. Some might 
choose 1776 as the cutoff, others might choose 1861, and others might choose 
1948.
Having said that, I agree with valid criticisms of some of the foreign 
policies of various administrations of the US government throughout its 
history. I also recognize that the powerful position that the US holds in 
the world makes those policies especially egregious for those who are 
affected but don't even get to vote for the government. I can assure you, 
however, that these policies are also egregious to half of the population 
who does get to vote for that government. We all must live with the fact 
that power corrupts and the abuse of power has plagued the human condition 
since societies were formed. Express your valid criticisms, but remember to 
also look at your own history and imagine your country in a similar position 
of power and wonder how well you would fare wielding this double-edged sword 
of power. 

 of power.
I fully agree with that, yet one might say that "if ifs and ans were pots
and pans...", obviously we could say the same thing for many other people
in the place of Saddam, of Hitler, of Bin Laden, of England in the
Victorian Age, and so on. Who knows? Eventually, in this period of
history, America happens to be in a privileged position, or rather a very
small minority of very powerful people managing some multinational
companies and telling the president what to do, and they are using up at a
dramatic speed the resources of our planet, covering up with the US
presidency rhetoric most of these acts. This is how the American policy is
perceived especially by those who are paying the price and in spite of
that are being pushed even more to the edges of this ever growing empire.
Yes, the US have the power now, and they are abusing it in the way that
has plagued the human condition. If another country were in that position,
as it has already happened in the past when the world was a bit smaller
and the weapons a bit more harmless, it would of course do the same, noone
could but agree with that. For the moment, however, it's the Americans who
are showing off their human nature. Despite the concept of democracy has
evolved a bit and is no more to be meant as simply a dictatorship of the
majority, but a kind of society in which every minority is also protected
and has the right to express itself, as well as fully achieve its freedom
and rights


 and rights
Oh well, I tried, but that was a waste of time. One thing that life seems to 
teach me over and over, is that it's not a person's politics that matter as 
much as their process. I've found that a person's true character is revealed 
not in their expressed ideology, but in how they manifest their philosophy 
when they interact with other human beings. Some people really try to 
listen, understand, and respond to the content of another's communication. 
Others simply look for an opportunity to indulge their self-absorbed agenda. 
I am so sick of having to endure that latter character trait in the current 
US president. 

 would not attribute a universal meaning to it, also because it is mostly
[snip]
Yeah, why should we non-yankees care of the first democracy in history?
;)
Btw, what were we doing in 1776, folks?
-- 
Enrico C
...still legal tender...

 ;)
you are talking about Greece, ain't you?


 US president.
I think that ornery character, unwilling to listen, can be found on both
political sides. 
 

 you are talking about Greece, ain't you?
Of course: a few years after Athens, Paris 1789. 


 US president.
The current US president is the product and the expression of a long
well-rooted political and economic will, as his father was, which has
found out that the time is right to become a little bit more explicit in
addressing its own problems.
But if you please, you may think of that subdivition into Eloi and
Morlocks, and some fanatic who still dare say strange things after the
whole future of mankind is already established and the ideal model of
society has already been found. You will have no hedaches by doing so.


 political sides.
I agree. I am one of those willing to listen. Of course I would like to
listen to new things and ideas from time to time, but maybe that's too
much of a claim


 Of course: a few years after Athens, Paris 1789. 
Yeahhh, I like it. And we can bomb all others who didn't come across it,
can't we?


 eterno.
Ok, ma c'e' un momento in cui diventa una cosa puramente formale, o per
lo meno una cosa che non ha piu' titolo di rilevanza nelle prese di
posizione politiche.
-- 
Ciao,
 Luigi

 to be on the 4th July. So no happy-birthday wishes or present, sorry.
Anyway I don't see why we should celebrate any special day related to
other countries. I celebrate Italian Holy Days because I'm italian. I
don't care about other coutries' Holy Days, as well as their citizens
don't care about italian ones.
For this reason I don't agree with people celebrating Halloween, St.
Patrick's day, 14th July, and so on. I'm not American thus I don't care
about 4th July. Plain and simple.
-- 
Ciao,
 Luigi

 wrote in message
news:lJwye.2670$b93....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
A long time ago on a New Year's Eve, before McDonald had crossed the
ocean and discovered Italy, I decided to go to Venice to celebrate the
New Year. Together with a friend, a lawyer from Chicago who had been
drafted into the Army after he finished law school, I got on the train
and headed for Venice.
In Venice, we made the rounds of all the bars we could find, and had
more than a few drinks. There wasn't the raucous celebration we had
expected, even at midnight. Unlike Naples, in Venice there was no
danger of flying objects being hurled out of apartment windows.
Disappointed, we set out shortly after midnight to return to the train
station. On the way, there was nothing on the Grand Canal, there were
no people in the streets, when we had expected a regatta, or at least
a gondola, perhaps accompanied by the barcarolle ("Une belle nuit")
from "Tales of Hoffman". When we got to the station, we saw a lone
figure standing on the steps, in front of a station which was locked
up and deserted. The guy standing on the steps told us the station
wouldn't reopen until early the next morning. As I spoke to the guy,
who had evidently had a few too many, he suddenly realized we were
Americans, and started ranting in Italian: "You Americans, you think
you're...." He started poking and pushing as he ran through the list
of reasons why he didn't like Americans. I retreated down the steps
toward the canal, trying to reason with the guy, all the while being
poked and shoved. Chicago was standing frozen, wondering who was going
to end up in the canal. He watched us gesticulating and shouting, not
understanding a word we were saying. Then he saw a strange thing
happen. He saw the guy pause, look down at the ground, then raise his
head, and offer me his hand to shake, a gesture which I accepted.
"C'mon with me", he said, heading for the Ponte Degli Scalzi. We
crossed the bridge, and made a right turn. A few steps down the
"fondamenta" the guy stopped, and began pounding on a door, yelling
"Padrone, padrone". After a few minutes, a man answered the door. The
guy conversed with the "padrone", and then we were ushered into a
nondescript bar, which the guy had apparently just left moments before
we met him at the station. It was probably a bar where the
"ferrovieri" came to eat their lunch and have a glass of wine. We sat
down at a table and the padrone appeared with a large bottle of "vino
locale". The three of us sat there drinking, and talking - about
women, family, home, the mountains, the military - the usual things.
Since Chicago didn't understand a word of Italian, he sat quietly most
of the time, as if watching an Italian movie without subtitles, with a
soundtrack by Nino Rota. Occasionally I would turn to Chicago and
explain what the guy was saying. We sat there until the early morning,
and finally we had to leave and head back to the station. As we got on
our train, we shook hands with the guy, who was now our friend, and
wished him well. He wasn't headed in our direction. On the train we
sat mostly in silence, with Chicago probably thinking that it was a
wasted night. But I couldn't get the music of Offenbach's barcarolle
out of my mind. After all, for me, it had indeed been "Une belle
nuit".
So I suppose we'll have to wait until we can get together in some
hospitable place in the "Ponti Rossi" in Naples, in Trastevere, in
some osteria "al di la del Piave", or maybe in the South Bronx or East
Harlem, where we can sit down and discuss our differences over a glass
or two.
Joe from Massachusetts
"E se son pallida nč miei colori
no' vo' dotori, no vo dotori
e se son pallida come 'na strassa
vinassa, vinassa e fiaschi de vin!"

 wrote in message
news:dalrp0$5t5f$1...@alpha3305-lc.lonestar.it...
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Although I'm American, I always celebrate the feast of San Gennaro,
because if I didn't, maybe his blood might not liquify, and then what
would happen with Vesuvius and Solfatara!   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 Joe from Massachusetts
Thanks for your recollection.
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or two.
Aha, Americans!
That's exactly the same way you used to corrupt the natives: alcohol!
You'll never change!!!
: ))))
Peltio
(just kidding)


But they got even. They gave us  (cough cough) tobacco.  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 lucky ones.
The fact that you think that's what I said only proves the point that you 
didn't pay attention to what I wrote but were more intent on standing on a 
soap box. If you had paid attention and entered into a dialog you might have 
learned that I am a strong critic of US policy. I'm only frustated when I 
see such obtuseness displayed by the Right, but I'm ashamed when I see such 
obtuseness displayed by the Left. 

 political sides.
That was my point. ;)

 would happen with Vesuvius and Solfatara!   :>)
lol...
we would be always on holidays if we would celebrate all existing feasts
from all countries.
Ciao,
 Luigi

 I have to assume here that most Americans know about 1861, or, that's a
So they know about the conquest by the Savoia and the fake referendums on 
annexions and so on...
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 learned that I am a strong critic of US policy. 
[...]
As well as I am. I believe it's now clear to everybody there was no direct 
link between 9/11 and Iraq, isn't it?
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 on 
it.cultura.linguistica.inglese :
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Hey, I like that! Let's celebrate all year round! ;)
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 link between 9/11 and Iraq, isn't it?
With television and propaganda they could even have some Americans believe
the evil of the world depends on the stinking cheese you have in your
fridge. Watch out!!
Bye, FB
-- 
Nasalization is just a part of life.
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

fridge. Watch out!!
Are you saying that they searched all Iraq for hidden bio labs but
they didn't think to look into Saddam's fridge? Argh.. watch out for
the evil stinking mutant cheese... we're doomed! :-)
'bye

 link between 9/11 and Iraq, isn't it?
Not to all Americans. The Right is very organized and consistent in 
developing 'talking points' and repeating them over and over. When the 
American public hears the same things repeated, even if they're lies, many 
tend to accept them. Like other people in other countries, Americans look 
into their souls, see themselves as basically good intentioned people, and 
expect that their government is a reflection of themselves, a kind of 
macro-scale 'campanilismo'. Anyway, most people are more concerned with 
caring for their day to day lives than with politics and don't bother to 
research issues.
After an event happens that illustrates how wrong was an administration 
action, the administration proponents respond to news reporters using the 
same words phrased sometimes the exact same way. There is a very good 'fake' 
television news show on the comedy channel called 'The Daily Show' which 
sometimes makes a montage of these 'cloned responses'. The administration 
proponents have been fed these 'talking points' by paid political staff that 
do nothing but work on 'spin', which in reality is a systematic strategy of 
spreading misinformation for political advantage.
If this new level of '1984' sophistication has not reached Europe yet, be 
prepared for it. Currently it has about half of the US population fooled, 
but that percentage is falling as the failures of the administration become 
harder to deny with each new revelation of corruption, abuse, and 
ineffectiveness. 

Enrico C ha scritto:
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Are you ready to take the blame for bringing down the PIL, as Berlusconi
said in one of his famous quotations? :))
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 >> Oh well, I tried, but that was a waste of time.
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The very fact that you feel you should be ashamed about someone that
classifies himself as "leftwing", indicates very clearly that leftwing
should mean in your opinion a single way of thinking and doing things,
without any possibility or freedom to express one's criticism. One mind.
So you have a predetermined political agenda and despite that you're
accusing me of doing so. Personally I'm very critical of the current
leftwing and the compromises and the political currents it has had to
merge with in order to survive in the "winner takes all" polytical system
unfortunately adopted by Italy. I don't see any difference apart from the
conflict of interests between Rutelli or Prodi and Berlusconi. they are
all rightwing and conservative. The leftwing has adapted to the rhetoric
of "not being Anti-American" by any means after 9/11, when most so-called
leftwing politician did not dare to criticise US policy and the invasions
which followed in order not to be accused of Antiamericanism by the
overwhelming rightwing media. 
I read the trivialities like "If another one were in power" that you wrote
with a lot of care, Perhaps you meant to be expressing you personal
opinion here and not an agenda. They are so trivial that anybody could
agree. But really I cannot understand what your point is in maintaining
that. Are you trying to justify the aggressive policy of the US towards
middle east countries which has been going on since the end of WW2 and not
since 9/11 as a reaction to the terrorist attack? Because anyone else
would do it? Tell me, what is your point? Are you really convinced Bush
made the difference in the American politics which had been so libertarian
and democratic until he came to power? Just talk to some third-world
citizen from a nunmber of countries in South America, Africa or Asia and
he will tell you what the trouble with imperialistic America is, and has
been for decades. It's not a question of opinions or pre-determined
agenda. It's a question of facts. Facts which you deliberately want to
ignore and find yourself comfortable with that hypocritical
centre-leftwing kind of benevolent attitude towards an undeclared
superiority of the "civilised" world with respect to the others, for which
it is justifiable that America keeps weapons of mass destruction and
allies itself with the bloodiest dictators when that is economically
profitable. Clinton went on bombarding Iraq all the time, it's not just
Bush. America is interested in the Middle east because of the oil. It is
not moving a finger for Sudan along with the UN  as well as did nothing
for Rwanda. Listen to some Amnesty International reports.
I am sorry but the only one you should feel ashamed for is yourself and
your huge ignorance about facts. You could not reply to any points, any of
the facts I listed in the previous posts and you became aggressive at some
point. Perhaps you didn't even understand them. That is very
rightwing-like, just striking and accusing the adversary of doing it. More
and more, I'm getting convinced that the meaning of right and left is
being forgotten by most of those that decide to belong to one or another,
it's just for esthetic reasons or a kind of fashion.
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 annexions and so on...
Of course they do...provided you begin by explaining where Europe exactly
lies in the world map (Ohhh what a shame; that was a really naughty one)
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Agostino De Matteis ha scritto:
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Well, they already knew that Saddam's fridge was still full of cold cokes
to celebrate the last purchase of American weapons, so they ignored it.
Maybe with the next dictator...
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 your huge ignorance about facts.
I hope your problem is only that you're very, very young and your mind isn't 
fully formed yet. You can respond to this if your ego requires that you get 
the last word, but I won't be wasting my time responding back any more. I 
feel like I'm talking to a grammar school kid, and I very well may be. 

 feel like I'm talking to a grammar school kid, and I very well may be.
You'd better dedicate your time to update your "political agenda". So you
won't have to improvise next time, and maybe you won't get too nervous if
someone contradicts you. Only a primary school kid would think that it is
just Bush's thirst of power which makes the US governement an
imperialistic regime.
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