Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: we don't finish a sentence with a preposition

Vedendo Two and a half men 2x03, c'ï¿œ la seguente scena:
il ragazzino prende una sospensione, e i genitori (e Charlie Sheen, lo 
zio) vanno dalla maestra.
il padre a C.Sheen: why do you flip mr.pasternak (la maestra) off?
la maestra, al padre: no no, we don't end a sentence with a preposition.
il padre alla maestra: oh sorry. wy do you flip off mr.pasternak?
cos'ï¿œ successo? che regola ï¿œ? il mio thomson-martinet (grammatica 
inglese) mi dice che con i verbi fraseologici molto spesso ï¿œ 
indifferente, e che comunque dipende dai casi. ci sono regole per cui 
tipo con i pronomi la preposizione si stacca sempre: turn it on, non 
turn on it. e altre regolette...etc.
ma, per ritornare alla questione: che significa "we don't end a sentence 
with a preposition"? mai sentita/non ricordo...
ciao
-- 
 >Giovanni

 with a preposition"? mai sentita/non ricordo...
"Non terminiamo una frase con una preposizione".
Kiuhnm

):

It's a pseudo-rule that no one in the US bothers with. (See?)
In order to avoid it, I would have had to say:
It's a pseudo-rule with which no one in the US bothers.
Ridiculous-sounding, especially when spoken.
There is an unattested anecdote dealing with Winston Churchill (I know he 
wasn't even American, but even he wouldn't have any of the foolish "rule"):
http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html
-- 
Joe/Joey da New York

 
http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html
anyway the question was this: is this rule at all tought at school? why? 
are you supposed to talk this way, just as we obiettivo/obbiettivo (both 
are now accepted) or a me mi (it will become accepted, you'll see) o ma 
perï¿œ (ditto)?
-- 
 >Giovanni

 
It's been a lo-o-o-o-ng time since I was in school at a level where something 
such as this would be taught, but I doubt that even when I was in the early 
grades this rule would have been taught for anything other than formal 
writing.
It's one of those "myths" that get propagated and promoted by people who just 
don't know better, or don't realize that language evolves and sometimes, for 
better or for worse, popular usage wins out.
Oh, and, by the way <vbg> don't use programs like "Two and a Half Men" for 
language learning! Observing the way they speak is fine, but they ain't [sic] 
experts! :-) Not even the teacher. I think it was all just done for the 
resulting joke.



�452
prepositions (5): at the ends of clauses
1 introduction
A preposition often connects two things: (1) a noun, adjective or verb that
comes before it, and (2) a 'prepositional object' - a noun phrase or pronoun
that comes after the preposition.
   This is a present for you.     He's looking at her.
   I'm really angry with Joe.     They live in a small village.
In some structures we may put the prepositional object at or near the
beginning of a clause. In this case, the preposition does not always go with
it -
It may stay together with 'its' noun, adjective or verb at the end of the
clause.
This happens especially in four cases:
    wh-questions: Who's the present for?
    relative structures: Joe's the person that I'm angry with.
    passives: She likes to be looked at.
    infinitive structures: The village is pleasant to live in.
2 wh-questions
When a question word is the object of a preposition, the preposition most
often comes at the end of the clause, especially in informal usage.
    Who's the present for? (For whom is the present? is extremely formal.)
    What are you looking at?
    Who did you go with?
    Where did she buy it from?
    Which flight is the general travelling on?
    What kind of films are you interested in?
This also happens in indirect wh-questions, and in other what-clauses.
    Tell me what you're worried about.
    What a lot of trouble I'm in!
Some questions consist simply of question word + preposition.
    What with? Who for?
However, this structure is unusual when there is a noun with the question
word.
    With what money? (NOT What money with?)
3 relative clauses
When a relative pronoun (see 494) is the object of a preposition, the
preposition also often goes at the end of the clause, especially in informal
usage.
    Joe's the person that I'm angry with. (Less formal than ... with whom I
am
     angry.)
    This is the house (that) I told you about. (Less formal than ... about
which I told you.)
    You remember the boy (who) I was going out with?
    She's the only woman (who) I've ever really been in love with.
    That's what I'm afraid of
Because whom is unusual in an informal style, it is very rare in clauses
that
end with prepositions (see 498.3,7).
4 passives
In passive structures (see 412-420), prepositions go with their verbs.
    She likes to be looked at.
    I don't know where he is - his bed hasn't been slept in.
    Carol was operated on last night.
5  infinitive structures
Infinitive complements (see 284-285) can have prepositions with them.
    The village is pleasant to live in.
    She needs other children to play with.
    Can you get me a chair to stand on?
    I've got lots of music to listen to.
    Their house isn't easy to get to.
6   exceptions
Many common adverbial expressions consist of preposition + noun phrase
(e.g. with great patience, in a temper). In these cases, the preposition is
closely
connected with the noun, and is kept as near as possible to it; it cannot
usually
be moved to the end of a clause.
    I admired the patience with which she spoke. (NOT ... the patience she
spoke
       with)
During and since are not normally put at the ends of clauses.
    During which period did it happen? (NOT Which period did it happen
     during?)
    Since when have you been working for her? (NOT When have you been
      working for her since?)
7  formal structures
In a more formal style, a preposition is often put earlier in questions and
relative structures, before the question word or relative pronoun.
    With whom did she go?
    It was the house about which he had told them.
    She was the only woman with whom he had ever been in love.
This can also happen in infinitive complements, in a very formal style.
A relative pronoun is used.
    She needs other children with whom to play.
    It is a boring place in which to live.
Note that after prepositions which and whom can be used, but not normally
who and that.
Even in a very formal style, prepositions are not often put at the beginning
of
questions which have be as the main verb.
    Who is it for, madam?  (NOT For whom is it?)
And the structures where ... to, what ... like and what ... for have a fixed
order.
    Where shall I send it to? (BUT NOT To where shall I send it?)
    What does she look like? (BUT NOT Like what does she look?)
    What did you buy that for? (BUT NOT For what did you buy that?)
Prepositions cannot be moved away from passive verbs even in a formal style.
    In my family, money was never spoken about. (NOT ... about money was
       never spoken.)
For more information about formal and informal language, see 311.
For sentences like It's got a hole in (it); I like cakes with cream on
(them), see 177.13.�
(Swan, "Practical English Usage")
Joe from Massachusetts

 resulting joke.
On the contrary...I find it useful for real spoken English (of course 
related to the "specific" social enviroment)
of course it is a joke...that I got.
-- 
 >Giovanni

 prepositions (5): at the ends of clauses
[..]
too long...what's your point? what should I look at more specifically?
my question was more of a social nature...not a linguistic one.
-- 
 >Giovanni


We are often told in school to never end a sentence with a preposition, but
we find it impossible to comply. There are a few cases where the preposition
must not come at the end of a sentence, but the instances where it is
perfectly fine outnumber those where it is anathema, as the excerpts from
Swan show. A person who goes to the extreme of avoiding all such uses in an
attempt to avoid making an error, as in your example from "2� Men", is
looked upon as a pedant, not as an authority. You will find many instances
in American film and TV which poke fun at the misguided efforts of people
obsessed with this pseudo-"rule".
Joe from Massachusetts

     infinitive structures
si spiegano semplicemente a partire dall'ipotesi che un certo elemento
grammaticale non sia una _preposition_ dell'_indirect object_, ma una
_POSTposition_ del predicato, sicch� l'_object_ resta un _direct object_.
Dunque parlando degli anglofoni mi sta bene dire che �they don't finish a
sentence with a preposition�, ma poi aggiungo che �they often *do* finish a
sentence with a *postposition*�. E quegli elementi grammaticali che in altre
lingue indoeuropee svolgono sempre la funzione di preposizioni, nell'inglese
possono essere trattati anche come postposizioni.
Sarebbe interessante, poi, cercare di capire come sia avvenuta questa
evoluzione nella lingua inglese. Probabilmente la presenza di molti
_phrasal verbs_ costituiti dalla unione di un verbo e una particella che pu�
essere una preposizione o un avverbio e che spesso resta legata al verbo
formando con esso un tutt'uno, ha fatto s� che tale particella venisse
percepita come un elemento grammaticale del verbo, cio�, appunto,
non pi� una preposizione dell'_object_, ma una postposizione del verbo.
Tale percezione poi, a partire dai _phrasal verbs_, pu� essersi progressiva-
mente estesa anche ad altri verbi, sicch� lo schema:
{verb} + [preposition + objet]
ha cominciato ad essere inteso anche in questo modo:
{verb + postposition} + [direct object].
Se la lingua inglese in futuro continuer� ad evolvere in questa direzione
forse scompariranno del tutto la _preposition_ e l'_indirect object_.
-- 
Saluti.
D. 

 It's a pseudo-rule that no one in the US bothers with. (See?)
It's a rule that no one in the US pays attention to.   There are more
important grammar points to worry about.
gfc

 important grammar points to worry about.
It's something up with which I will not put.

 "we don't end a sentence with a preposition"?
Darn well true!
- Excuse me, where's the library at?
- You know, you shouldn't really end your sentences with a preposition.
- OK. Where's the library at, asshole?

 obsessed with this pseudo-"rule".
OIC (cit. The big bang theory)
-- 
 >Giovanni

 It's something up with which I will not put.
ecco una risposta alla Severgnini...
-- 
 >Giovanni