Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: was/were

I'm undecided about wich one of the following sentences I should prefer.
1) "I'd never take a gun with me, unless I WAS told to do so."
2) "I'd never take a gun with me, unless I WERE told to do so."
Any insight?
Kiuhnm

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:46268314$0$4788$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...
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La prima.
ciao, Jan 

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If I were to say the above, I would use the subjunctive because it sounds 
better to me, unless I was with a "bunch of guys" who eschew formal speech.
-- 
Disclaimer:
My goal in posting here is to provide readers with
acceptable, viable, correct examples of how an
American speaks day-to-day English; how to sound
like an average person, not a great work of literature
or someone who speaks like a grammar book. jdwd

 better to me, unless I was with a "bunch of guys" who eschew formal speech.
Are you going to answer all the question in this subtle yet smart way?
:)
-- 
Salvatore Iovene
http://www.iovene.com/
"A world without hackers would be a world without curiosity and
innovation." - Jon Erickson

 Are you going to answer all the question in this subtle yet smart way?
                                  questions
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'Unless she were new at the job she shouldn't do it that way.' Can this 
sentence be?
'Unless I were' is on the same line of  'if I were' so correct grammar 
requires subjunctive, a remnant of a more complex medieval grammar.
But do I remember it correctly?

 
Well, I hope it doesn't become annoying, but in the case of the question that 
was asked, both answers are acceptable, although there are those who will 
tell you that you should use the subjunctive.
Fact is, the subjunctive in American English is nearly as dead as Latin as a 
spoken language. In formal *writing*, one might want to take more care to 
adhere to certain rules of grammar, but in everyday discourse, not so much.
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(2), unless you say "Se c'ero, te lo dicevo".
Quite a lot of people would, in fact, say (1), but given the choice 
between those two options in an exam, (2) is what they almost certainly
want you to pick.

adhere to certain rules of grammar, but in everyday discourse, not so much.
Yes, I agree, the other way is becoming more common by the day so, apart the 
'If I were' .
But I think that if I were to write a paper for a school work I'd write the 
subjunctive form (just to be on the safe side). 

 speech.
I understand the attraction of using the subjunctive, but I think I would 
use the indicative in this case. If the sentence were constructed as an 'if 
clause' I'd use the subjunctive. However, I don't think that 'unless' offers 
enough doubt, as would 'if', to justify using the subjunctive. 

 (2), unless you say "Se c'ero, te lo dicevo".
Non ci provare! In USA il congiuntivo non esiste piu', in Italia vive e 
prospera!
(io sono per l'abolizione dall'inglese e mi sta simpatico in italiano, ma 
forse era meglio fare questa precisazione prima mi sa...ehm era meglio se 
avessi fatto...era meglio che avessi fatto...ok ora mi sono confusa! :(().
ciao, Janis 

 But do I remember it correctly?
*Giese, Thou recallst it well. :-)
(*OE for "yes" and pronounced much like "yes" but with a final 'schwa'.)
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And I would be inclined to agree with you.
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Yes, I think it really comes down to a matter of preference, and I seem to 
"go both ways" so to speak: depending on the audience, whether I'm writing or 
speaking, and just a simple preference for how it sounds.
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Ok, so say it in English! :-)
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 or speaking, and just a simple preference for how it sounds.
Some might find this explanation from the website 
wordpower.ws
 useful.
[BEGIN]
As well as being expressed in subordinate clauses beginning with the word
if, conditions may also be expressed in subordinate clauses beginning with
the word unless.
e.g. Unless he were a giant, he would not be able to see over the wall.
Either the Indicative Mood or the Subjunctive Mood can be used to express a
condition.
In the case of a condition which is considered true or probable, the
Indicative Mood is used.
e.g. If she is here now, we will ask her opinion.
In this example, the verb is is in the Simple Present Indicative. The use of
the Simple Present Indicative indicates that the condition if she is here
now is considered to be probable.
In the case of a condition which is considered false or improbable, the
Subjunctive Mood is used.
e.g. If she were here now, we would ask her opinion.
In this example, the verb were is in the Simple Past Subjunctive. The use of
the Simple Past Subjunctive indicates that the condition if she were here
now is considered to be false or improbable.
[END]
The full text is available at 
http://www.wordpower.ws/grammar/gramch09.html

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That's a good point... the distinction they make probably influences *me* 
somewhat, even if subconsciously.
I found it useful!
Still, a good deal of it is personal preference.
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 condition.
I don't think it is the same thing.
We all know the difference between the first and the second conditional.
What we're debating here is whether we should express the /second 
conditional/ by using the subjunctive or the indicative mood in presence 
of "unless".
Kiuhnm

 Ok, so say it in English! :-)
...humm...I guess I've just fallen into my own trap :P
ciao, Janis 

 of "unless".
The text doesn't address the issue of first or second conditional. I posted 
this text because it suggests that unless may allow the subjunctive mood in 
some conditions, and that the choice should depend on whether the intent is 
to communicate a probable or improbable condition. The example that they 
give is "Unless he were a giant, he would not be able to see over the wall". 
It is very improbable that he is a giant, since giants are mythological 
creatures. I suppose that it's up to you to decide whether it is probable or 
improbable that you would ever be told to take a gun with you.
By the way, if the issue of first or second conditional were relevant here, 
the example the text uses for 'unless' is second conditional. 

 improbable that you would ever be told to take a gun with you.
Second conditional (subjunctive mood):
"Unless he were a giant, he would not be able to see over the wall".
First conditional (indicative mood):
"If she is here now, we will ask her opinion".
Second conditional (subjunctive mood):
"If she were here now, we would ask her opinion."
But what about
"If she WAS here now, we would ask her opinion."
"Unless he WAS a giant, he would not be able to see over the wall".
?
You left out the key point.
Kiuhnm

"Diego" <Ddie...@Ttin.it> wrote in message
news:46268b71$0$17952$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...
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I would say "Unless she were new at the job, she shouldn't have (been
doing)(done) it that way."
"Unless she is new at the job, she shouldn't do it that way."
Joe from Massachusetts

 (2), unless you say "Se c'ero, te lo dicevo".
Però questa in italiano è sentita come forma substandard.
Invece, mi par di capire che "unless I was told..." sia ormai "acceptable",
almeno in AmEn.
-- 
"And the whole Earth was of one language, and of one speech". 
(Genesis 11,1)

 You left out the key point.
I'll try one more time, then we'll just offer this thread up to those gods
who amuse themselves with the aftershocks of the fall of the tower of Babel.
The key point has now evolved to whether or not he really was a giant. I may
believe in gods who amuse themselves with the aftershocks of the fall of the
tower of Babel, but I don't believe in giants. So, in this case, I would use
the subjunctive and say 'unless he were a giant.' In the same vein, if she 
isn't here, then she ain't here, period! So, you must say 'If she were here 
now...'.
Now, if you'll allow me to put myself in your place, and assume the mantel
of probability voiced by your sentence, I would say 'I'd never take a gun
with me, unless I was told to do so' because it is very probable that I
might run into some American to offer me such urging, albeit unwanted. I
take exception to the neccessity of following someone else's decision about
gun-totin', but you left me no choice. I am compelled to look that paranoid
'other' in the eyes, and say 'If I am told to take a gun with me, I will do
so'. (The things I'll do for the sake of the language communication!)
Otherwise, I proceed unarmed as would be my inclination.
If instead, I only wanted to threaten that paranoid 'other' with the
ferocity of my compliance, I would say 'If I were told to take a gun with
me, I'd do it!' If all goes well, I'll watch that devil cower at the
realization of the implications of such a bluff, were it true.
So, here is the key point. No, really, this is the key point. What the hell
do you want to say, and just how sure are you that no one will take you up
on your announced exception, and compel you to take a gun? My personal
answer is that your choice of how to phrase your reckless intention will
affect the 'sfumatura'.

prospera!
I wish you were right, I really do. Ma più sento dire alla radio e in
TV "Vorrei che sia chiaro", e più mi viene voglia di mettere mano alla
pistola.
Despairingly yours,
-- 
Isa
Work like you don't need money,
Love like you've never been hurt,
And dance like no one's watching
http://web.tiscali.it/alfabeto_auschwitz/index.htm

 might run into some American to offer me such urging, albeit unwanted.
If you use the second conditional you must use the subjunctive.
That is what every grammar says. And the text you posted never denies it.
It says:
"Either the Indicative Mood or the Subjunctive Mood can be used to 
express a condition.",
but then this example follows:
"If she is here now, we will ask her opinion."
That is a first conditional. It's obvious that we are supposed to use 
the indicative mood.
But you are interpreting the first claim as if we could also say:
"If I was a giant ...".
That's wrong bacause there are two cases:
(1) you was/are a giant.
(2) you was/are not a giant.
By using "was" instead of "were" you are affirming that you /was/ a 
giant, so that "if" doesn't make any sense.
Kiuhnm

 
Hand me the gun, please, when you're finished with it. (Ok, not funny, in the 
wake of the Virginia Tech massacre.)
Let's face it: some "irregularities" of use are simply bad grammar; others 
are matters of choice between two or more options in a growing, developing, 
morphing (and sometimes transmogrifying) language.
In my VHO, the subjunctive in the US is entirely optional, although your use 
of it, or non-use of it, will subtly or otherwise allude to your level of 
education *to some people* but not to a lot of other people.
-- If I were rich I would buy a new house. (subjunctive)
-- If I was rich I would buy a new house. (indicative, and considered
   gramatically incorrect, but not uncommon in spoken AmEn.)
-- If I had a million dollars I would buy a new house.
-- If I thought about it, I would have done differently.
-- If the play had started on time, we would have been home by now.
-- If you figured out what I'm getting at, you have done well.
(I *defy* you to tell me whether or not I've just used the indicative or the 
subjunctive in the last four sentences. Whatever you say, you will
be wrong. :-)
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Lest we be willing :-) to confuse the issue more, let's just agree.
Unless you are told otherwise, you can *say* "unless I was told" and not be 
castigated.
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 Kiuhnm
IMHO, fine to *say* (or to write, if one were [sic] writing spoken dialog of 
an average American).
Mind you, I would probably use the subjunctive in both of those expressions 
only because of my innate or learned sense of *other* languages (including 
Old English) where the subjunctive is more prevalent.
And I want to be clear that, again IMHO, there are lots of instances where 
folks just "don't talk good" [sic] and I make mental notes of it, but where 
the subjunctive is concerned, I leave a wide margin for error because of its 
lack of strength or visibility in English and that, sooner or late, other 
than in grammar books, it will probably no longer exist.
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 -- If I thought about it, I would have done differently.
This sounds wrong to me. Wouldn't it rather be:
  -- If I HAD thought about it, I would have done differently.
?
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Could be. :-)
Doesn't *have* to be. :-P
The grammar book says "YES! It would rather be "If I HAD thought...."
(Or, in AmEng, "YES! It *should* be "If I HAD thought....")
Everyone else, however, would ask, in response to your question, "Huh? What 
do you mean?"
When I learned French a few decades ago, my grammar book -- and 
unfortunately, my teacher -- taught that the way one asks after another's 
health, or in greeting, was to ask "Comment allez-vous?"
On my first trip to France, I quickly and somewhat embarrassedly learned that 
it was the equivalent of an American saying "How do you do?"
There is a connection here.
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 than in grammar books, it will probably no longer exist.
I'm afraid Italian is going to follow...
Anyway I've been reading a novel and I've even found
"If I was going to cut loose, I wanted to be in control of just how 
loose I got.".
What's that? It sounds strangely good to me. It doesn't look like a 
"real conditional" but more like an idiom.
Kiuhnm

 "If I was a giant ...".
May the gods be content.

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It sounds like the conversation related to something that the speaker is 
referring to in the past. What he means is that if he was going to be 
uninhibited in something, he wanted (still) to be in control of how 
uninhibited he actually got. It's a bit contradictory: if you're "cutting 
loose" (letting go of your inhibitions) you are inherently *giving up* 
control, non e' vero?
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 control, non e' vero?
I understand the meaning. I was just a bit puzzled about the 
correctness. But we would say something very similar in Italian as well:
"Se volevo farcela, dovevo agire in fretta".
By the way, do you know Anita Blake? She's not the image of coherence.
Kiuhnm

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I'm sorry, I don't know Anita Blake. I have inferred that she's a vampire 
slayer???? I guess I wouldn't expect such a rare person to be inherently 
linguistic... more "dental", maybe. :-)
But tell me, how would you translate "se volevo farcela, doveva agire in 
fretta" because I don't understand the connection... Sorry. I'm American! :-)
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 fretta" because I don't understand the connection... Sorry. I'm American! :-)
"If I wanted to make it, I had to do it fast".
Kiuhnm

be wrong. :-)
Good. Then I'm keeping my mouth shut :-)
Cheers,
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Doesn't *have* to be. :-P
Exactly. The simple past has more uses, in English, than its Italian
counterpart, and as a translator I see that every day.
Ciao,
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 "If I wanted to make it, I had to do it fast".
Ok, Yes. Exactly.
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 of choice. No, no, it isn't. It's, as you say, simply bad grammar.
Concordo. Usare "sia" al posto di "fosse", in quella frase, non è né
formale né informale, è semplicemente sbagliato.
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The whole discussion reminded me of Loudon Waintwright's song "I wish
I was a Lesbian" 
http://www.lyricscrawler.com/song/43527.html
I remember him introducing it once: the only thing he has argued about
to his girlfriend who'd said that was :"What do you mean I wish I
WAS... ? I wish I WERE" Both occurrences are in the song anyway.
Ciao
Claudia