Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Doesn't the sun turn around the earth?

Let us, for the sake of this argument, assume that the earth turns
around the sun. (I am serious, as you will see)
Statement of fact: The earth turns around the sun.
Question 1: Does the earth turn around the sun?   Answer: YES.
Question 2: Does the sun turn around the earth?   Answer: NO.
Question 3: Doesn't the sun turn around the earth?   Answer: NO.
Ever since I was first posted to the Far East, eons ago, I have become
increasingly puzzled by how two directly opposite questions, in this
example questions 2 and 3, can be answered truthfully with the same
answer, in this example NO.
Cursed with the awkward habit of thinking logically, rather than
rationally -- or is it the other way around? -- I would be tempted to
answer question 3 with YES, meaning YES, what you suggest is correct,
the sun doesn't turn around the earth. To be on the safe side, I
answer with neither YES nor NO, but with IT DOES NOT.
As far as I can make out, the Italian language provides the same
potential for misunderstanding.
Just don't go and ask a Japanese -- or many other Asian nationals, for
that matter -- a negative question of type 3, or you'll be wondering
for the rest of your life what his answer meant.
Bambi, Queen of Hong Kong, am I not right?
--
Xakero
 Today posting from GMT+7, where, YES, the sun doesn't turn around the
earth.

for the rest of your life what his answer meant.
So very true!  I have that problem with all my Oriental students.  It took me a
while to figure out that when they answer a negative question with "yes",  you
are usually safe to assume that they mean "no".
example:
- May, didn't you bring your book today?
-Yes
- Oh good, where is it?
- I don't have it with me.
- What do you mean? Didn't you bring it to school?
- Yes
- ok, why don't you open it.  We're on page 76.
- It's at home...
-What do you mean "it's at home".  You just told me you have it here.
anyway...this used to drive me crazy.  When I finally realized that I was only
having this problem with the Orientals, I figured out that what they mean is
"yes, your statement is correct".  In May's case "yes, you are correct.  I
didn't bring the book".
I now make it a point to explain negative questions at the beginning of the
semester since I have so many students from the Orient (mainly Hong Kong,
Taiwan and Korea)
I think that in English our "no" is really part of "no, it doesn't".  
I don't believe that giving a positive answer to a negative question is really
a source of confusion if you set the parameters of your answer.
Obviously, their answers relate to the content AND the type of question
(positive or negative) and they see that as one concept/idea.  In English,
Italian and some other languages we only look at the content and disregard the
positive or negative in the question.
Giusto?
ciao
arianna
PS Aren't you glad you brought up this topic?

around the sun. 
Sorry...I just wanted to say that "turns" does not sound correct in this
sentence.  You can say that the Earth rotates around the sun or more
colloquially "goes" around the sun.  I have never heard "the Earth turns around
the sun". However, you  can say  the the Earth turns on its axis.
Isn't that true?
ciao
arianna

 Giusto?
I do have clear memories of making or hearing such comments as "Yes you
did, or yes you did'nt?" in my and others' attempts to clarify the
answers given to such negative questions. It comes back to their
imprecise nature. But  I agree that in general we seem to go for the
'No' response in such a question. 
A safe way to answer is to restate it in a way that gives clear
information. "Yes, I didn't bring it. or "No, I didn't...."  
But food for thought for sure.
Cheers,
Loki
Who had better follow her own advice..... --  

 arianna
The earth orbits,  revolves, circles, rotates; spins and turns on its
axis also. These all tend to be the words used for talking of our
planetary motions.  Even circumnambulates conveys the act of circling.
(this would probably be at walking speed :-)
"The earth circles about the sun" 
"the moon goes round the earth"
"something rotates/revolves around an axis" all are examples in  simple
dictionary I looked up.
Cheers,
Loki
-- 


There is a difference between "Did you bring your book?" and "Didn't you bring
your book?" and that's the reason why one would ask a negative question.
ciao
Arianna

 Arianna
What exactly is the difference? These are learners of English I presume.
 I have a reference it to it but have been unable to find in the chaos
that is my paperwork at the moment. 
It had a lot to do with the introduction of Plain English also. However
that concept of clarity in English seems to have disappeared from the
world's consciousness, what with corporatization and consumerization of
the world where meanings become whatever is the flavour of the day. And
dare I say (getting ready to duck), the American propensity for new
words and meanings when an old ones would do admirably... 
Byeeeee.... puff puff  <running for cover..>
Loki
-- 

 are usually safe to assume that they mean "no".
This is a second order problem :-). When I talk to an Oriental student,
he/she says yes, but he/she just means "I'm hearing you, not "I'm
understanding your words or your concepts", and never assume the meaning
is "I agree with you". The university where I work gave me a short list
of these hints :-). I think that negative questions were also in the
list.
Ciao
-- 
Franco
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
(L. Wittgenstein)

 The earth orbits,  revolves, circles, rotates; spins and turns on
its
You're so right, Loki. I should've said "orbit". I must've been in
orbit not to realize it.
--
Xakero
 Sapere aude!  (Horace, Epistulae)

We wouldn't say "yes I didn't" or "no I did" because it sounds funny.  It's
confusing to a native speaker of English to have opposites coupled in that way.
Likewise for "yes it doesn't" and "no it does", going back to the orbiting Earth
example.
So the implication of "Yes" is "Yes I did" or "Yes it does", and of "No" is "No I
didn't" or "No it doesn't", isn't it?  :-)
Rick

What exactly is the difference? These are learners of English I presume.
No. Not necessarily.  Some of them are in the GED program and  some are in the
high school diploma program.   Many of them do speak English as a second
language (half of California does).
In my opinion, this is the difference:  when you ask "Did you bring your book?"
you are merely asking a question which has no connotation.  When you ask
"Didn't you bring your book?" you are expectingt "no" as an answer and you are
implicitly saying that the person being asked should have brought his/her book.
 In my opinion a negative question denotes a certain degree of surprise.
This example may illustrate my point more clearly:
Did you like the movie?  (I don't know whether you liked it or not and I am
asking).
Didn't you like the movie? (I think you didn't like it and I feel that you
should have). 
 I think the same difference in meaning exists in Italian between "Ti e'
piaciuto il film?" e "Non ti e' piaciuto il film?"
No?  Non ho ragione?
ciao
arianna

 piaciuto il film?" e "Non ti e' piaciuto il film?"
The various manners of asking basically the same question can, it
seems to me, have psychological undertones, subliminal reprimands or
notes of approval.
Going back to the teacher asking Mary if she didn't bring her book.
With "Didn't you bring the book?", perhaps Mary has to feel less
guilty about admitting to not having brought it than with "Did you
bring the book?" or "You brought the book, didn't you?" After all, if
the teacher already assumes she didn't bring it, it won't upset him so
much to learn that he guessed right.


 isn't it?  :-)
That could be the ultimate solution, the old-fashioned way of making a
statement followed by "isn't it?", "did you?", "hasn't he?"
Prosecuting attorney to O.J. Simpson: "You murdered your wife, didn't
you?"  O.J.: "No, I didn't"
Defence counsel to O.J.: "You didn't murder your wife, did you?"
O.J.: "No, I didn't"
Of course, you still have the same answer "No, I didn't" to two
directly opposite questions. Logic it is not, correct English it is.
But I don't give a hoot!



But isn't it the same in Italian..?
e.g. to a man who has 10 cents:
"Do you have nothing?"
The reply in English is "No, I don't have nothing - I have 10 cents". You
can't say this literally in Italian but a double negative is reinforcing.

answer, in this example NO.
The French and Germans have this clever distinction, whereby you can
say yes to a negative question using a *different* word than when you
say yes to an affirmative question, and of course meaning two
different things. Isn't that handy?
-- 
Isa
Work like you don't need money,
Love like you've never been hurt,
And dance like no one's watching
http://web.tiscalinet.it/alfabeto_auschwitz/

 Question 3: Doesn't the sun turn around the earth?   Answer: NO.
My computer says: "this is wrong".
I firmly trust him ;)

 different things. Isn't that handy?
I'm curious, what are they? Sounds like we could do with them. :-)
Cheers,
Loki
  -- 
 

 that you should have). 
 Howabout  ( .. and I feel that you would have) 
Boy, chatting with you guys could be full of pitfalls with all these
unsaid meanings attached to sentences. Pity the ESOL student.
It all gets rather confusing after a while... 
Did you not like the movie? Would be my sentence of choice for the
same sense. (yeah right... )
cheers,
Loki
-- 

I'm curious, what are they? Sounds like we could do with them. :-)
Sounds like it, but I have to say that, in my experience as an Italian
German and French learner, it is very difficult to remember the
distinction... I mean to actually remember one should use it in
speech. I tend to just say yes when I mean yes, and no, when I mean no
:-)
However, here's a Copy&Paste from the Web, re. German:
Ja, Nein, Doch... Yes, No, Sure!
Use Ja to give a positive answer, 
use Nein to give a negative answer and 
*use Doch for giving a positive answer to a negative question*.
(IsaZ's note: of course you shall use Nein to give a negative answer
to a negative question).
Instead of a longish explanation see the example below:
Kommst Du nicht zu der Party?
 You do not come to the party?
 
Nein, ich komme nicht zu der Party
 No I do not come to the party.
 
Doch, ich komme zur Party!
 Sure I come to the party!
 
See? "Doch" instead of "Ja" which would sound ambiguous. 
Similarly, you should use "si" in French instead of "oui" to give a
positive answer to a negative question.
Pant, pant! 


 Pant, pant! 
Maybe I'll stick to English and Italian (wot italian, you say...) 
:-))
Cheers,
Loki
-- 
 
              O      __
      ___   /\     / / O  
     /__ \   | \   /  |
    O  /  \ /   \./   |
        |________ |
 
            Loki