Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: he, who?

QUOTE
After Cuba's Fidel Castro, Mr Ortega has long been Latin America's most
potent symbol of resistance to American hegemony -- so much so that when he
stood in 2001, the American ambassador went on the campaign trail with Mr
Bolaños.
UNQUOTE
Source: The Economist, "Nicaragua's besieged president", 14 NOV 2004 (full
article on 
http://www.geocities.com/xakero/Nicaragua.pdf
 [51 KB])
A chi si riferisce il "he" nel "when he stood"? Sig. Ortega? L'ambasciatore
americano? Sig. Bolaños?
Dal contesto so che si tratta del Sig. Bolaños, che si candidò e fu eletto
presidente del Nicaragua nel 2001, ma dalla costruzione della frase sembra
che sia l'ambasciatore americano. Che ne dicono i grammatici?
-- 
Xakero
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" _
Marilyn Pittman.

 che sia l'ambasciatore americano. Che ne dicono i grammatici?
È vero che la frase è ambigua e si capisce dal contesto ma penso che il
problema sia il modo di scrivere, non la grammatica. Suona strano che il
pronome nella clausola dipendente si riferisce al oggetto e non al soggetto.

pronome nella clausola dipendente si riferisce al oggetto e non al soggetto.
Really?  Secondo me e' chiarissima.  Io non la trovo ambigua.  Il pronome si
dovrebbe riferire ad un nome o sostantivo che e' gia stato menzionato nella
frase, quindi secondo me non si puo' riferire a  Bolaños o all'ambsciatore
americano.  
Se la frase dipendente e' "when he stood in 2001" qual e' l'oggetto di questa
frase?  I am not being sarcastic as many times I miss things that are right in
front of my eyes.  I don't see an object in that sentence.
bye
ari

 front of my eyes.  I don't see an object in that sentence.
In the phrase "when he stood in 2001", the pronoun "he" refers to Mr
Bolaños, who is the indirect object of the phrase "the American
ambassador went on the campaign trail with Mr Bolaños".
-- 
Mary

 refer to Ortega.
Ortega, non ci ho capito una...
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Are you sure an embryo parson should have a plane?"
"Everyone should have a plane!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

 questa frase?
Pensavo all'altra persona che era una candidato, Bolaños. Quando ho letto la 
frase prima, pensavo che 'he' si è riferito a Ortega, ma non ho trovato un 
riferimento a Ortega nella frase principale. Dopo un periodo di confusione, 
ho deciso che si è riferito all'altro candadito, Bolaños, perchè è stato 
citato nella frase principale. Allora, secondo me, la frase è ambigua e si 
capisce il senso, anche se si capisce male, dal contesto.

 Allora a chi si riferisce? Ortega? Aspetta... penso che abbia ragione. 
Actually, Xakero said "Dal contesto so che si tratta del Sig. Bolaños".
-- 
Mary

 front of my eyes.  I don't see an object in that sentence.
Secondo me, strettamente grammaticalmente, "he" si riferisce
all'ambasciatore: when he stood [for election], the ambassador went on the
campaign trail. Riducendo la frase ai suoi elementi essenziali, si vede
meglio il riferimento. 
Invece, l'autore intendeva dire: when Mr Bolaños stood, the American
ambassador went on the campaign trail with him.
È come dire: when he travelled to Milan last year, John Blair went to the
Teatro alla Scala with Silvio Berlusconi. Il pronome "he" si riferisce
chiaramente a "John Blair", che segue, anche se sarebbe probabilmente
meglio scrivere "when John Blair travelled to Milan last year he went..."
-- 
Xakero
"Getting married for sex is like buying a 747 for the free peanuts." _ Jeff
Foxworthy

 meglio scrivere "when John Blair travelled to Milan last year he went..."
One might wonder who John Blair is.
Bye, FB
-- 
"While I'm here, might I make a few changes? I adore my bedroom, but do you
think I could have my curtains washed? I believe they're red, but I should
like to make sure."


 Actually, Xakero said "Dal contesto so che si tratta del Sig. Bolaños".
Well, I thought so too, but now I think the sentence is even more ambiguous 
and can be interpreted either way. I have to wonder if Ortega was also a 
candidate. If he was, then the sentence is hopelessly ambiguous even in the 
wider context. The salient point for me is that 'so much so' refers to 
Ortega being a symbol of resistance to American hegemony. The 'so much so' 
is followed by 'that when he', so one is inclined to think Ortega was a 
candidate.
Ultimately I have to conclude that the sentence is poorly written and 
ambiguous, but I don't know that any grammar rules have been violated. If 
the writer had added the phrase 'the opposition candidate' one would be 
inclined to think Ortega was the 'he' and a candidate: After Cuba's Fidel 
Castro, Mr Ortega has long been Latin America's most potent symbol of 
resistance to American hegemony -- so much so that when he stood in 2001, 
the American ambassador went on the campaign trail with the opposition 
candidate, Mr Bolaños. The 'him' would be clear if had read: After Cuba's 
Fidel Castro, Mr Ortega has long been Latin America's most potent symbol of 
resistance to American hegemony -- so much so that when Mr Bolaños, the 
opposition candidate, stood in 2001, the American ambassador went on the 
campaign trail with him.
Does anyone know if Ortega was also a candidate that year? I suppose I could 
look it up. Nahhhh! 

Mr Bolaños when he (Bolaños)
I see your point.  Now I am REALLY confused.  
bye
ari

 One might wonder who John Blair is.
Si chiama Tony, magari?
-- 
Xakero
"Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes." _ Oscar Wilde

 -- 
I think "he" is Mr. Ortega. The key is "when he stood". If Mr. Ortega
had not stood for election, (opposing Mr. Bolaños), the ambassador
would have done nothing. When "he" ran for office, the ambassador
immediately went out and supported Mr. Bolaños.
If "he" were Mr. Bolaños, the sentence would have been entirely
different. "...when Mr. Bolaños stood in 2001, the American ambassador
went on the campaign trail with him."
Joe from Massachusetts

would have done nothing.
That's the way I also interpreted it.
ari

chiaramente a "John Blair", che segue, 
I agree, but the sentence you give above is not constructed the same way as the
sentence in the original post.  The above sentence does not have an antecedent,
so obvioulsy the pronoun has to refer to something that comes after.  The
sentence in the original question had "Mr. Ortega" mentioned in the first part.
 I took that as being the antecedent for "he", but maybe I was wrong.  
Anyway, it sounds to me like they are talking about Ortega.  
bye
ari

>È come dire: when he travelled to Milan last year, John Blair went to the

Sì, hai ragione. 
Prima, vedovo il trattino lungo (m-dash) come un punto e virgola, mentre
quel "so much so" rinforza, infatti, il potenziale riferimento
all'antecedente "Mr Ortega". La mia riduzione della frase all'essenziale
era esagerata. Dalla costruzione della frase intera, bisogna veramente
capire "Mr. Ortega has been Latin America's most potent symbol of
resistence, so much so that when he [Mr. Ortega] stood in 2001, the
American ambassador went on the campaign trail with Mr. Bolaños", il che il
giornalista non intendeva.
-- 
Xakero
Henceforth, genius will be measured not by how fancy, big or powerful
somebody makes something, but by how simple. _ The Economist, 28 October
2004

 giornalista non intendeva.
Ho sbagliato ancora. Dopo una ricerca, vedo che Ortega e Bolaños furono
ambidue candidati, e perché Ortega si opponeva alla "American hegemony"
l'ambasciatore diede il suo sostegno a Bolaños, cioè all'opponente di
Ortega.
Credo di avere malinteso la frase perché nell'articolo, Bolaños no è
menzionato antecedentemente quale candidato e opponente di Ortega. Nessuna
colpa del giornalista.
Tutto a posto, adesso.
-- 
Xakero
"I am not young enough to know everything." _ Oscar Wilde

 Tutto a posto, adesso.
"And the winner for Most Obscure Sentence 2004 is...".
Bye, FB
-- 
Just as I thought. Another test that could have cost us our lives, saved
only by the fact that I am enormously well-bred.
(Murder by Death)

> "And the winner for Most Obscure Sentence 2004 is...".
A professional editor would not have let that sentence out to the world to
see.