Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: How modern is La Sacra Bibbia?

Hi, all. I'm beginning to study Italian and am considering using La
Sacra Bibbia (American Bible Society, December 2000) as one text to
work with. Below is the URL from Amazon showing the first page of the
book. Would you mind telling me whether this is contemporary Italian
as opposed to an archaic style?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/8823710510/ref=sib_dp_ln/103-4339395-4557463#reader-page
  Thanks.

Incontinentius Buttocks wrote:

There are some archaic or very uncommon words here and there. Some periods are
constructed in a more difficult, formal way. But all together, it's not that
bad. I mean, it's much better than reading a book 100 years old. I would also
use a different, modern text together. Besides, you probably want to start from
a grammar...
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

...

  Thanks. I've ordered Teach Yourself Italian Grammar by Anna
Proudfoot from Amazon and plan to work through that when it comes.
I've also been skimming through La Corriere Della Sera online and
BBC's language site, picking things up bit by bit. I just didn't want
to start speaking the Italian equivalent of King James English ;-).

 to start speaking the Italian equivalent of King James English ;-).
... and don't try to study with mafia movies. Like in Godfather, all the
so-called Italian is in fact Sicily dialect, so you don't want to pick that up
either :)
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

 either :)
Come si può definire questo uso di "to want"? L'ho già incontrato e, in
linea di massima, saprei usarlo attivamente.
Ciao, FB

 I just didn't want to start speaking the Italian equivalent of King James
English ;-).
I know what you mean (well, I hope so...), but the Italian version of the
Holy Bible is not, linguistically speaking, such a point of reference as the
King James' Bible is.
You might want to know that "I Promessi Sposi" by Alessandro Manzoni ("The
Betrothed", I guess) is comparable to the King James' Bible in that way.
Well, Manzoni didn't write exactly the way we speak nowadays, but that
historical novel is still a point of reference as for language usage.
Bye-bye, FB

 in linea di massima, saprei usarlo attivamente.
Boh :)  E' un uso idiomatico, ma non saprei mettergli un nome.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

 for language usage.
Some months ago, I noticed a funny thing while I was giving a look to a
middle-school (Italian) grammar book. In almost the whole book, they used
made-up sentences for the examples: "Vado a Parigi", complemento di moto a
luogo, etc.; instead, in the chapter about complex period constructions, they
preferred to quote famous books (inluding Manzoni's).
I guess it's because a made-up sentence like "Affinché potessimo fare goal
all'altra squadra, quella settimana l'allenatore ci fece fare piů allenamenti"
is just as cryptic for a middle-school student. This is not the language they
speak, so it doesn't make sense to construct common, easy sentences to make
them understand better. You can quote complex books and it'll be the same.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

work with.
I would discourage you from doing so.  There are so many words that you will
never hear in everyday conversation, ("tenebre" for example) and constructions
that are not that easy to unravel for a student of the language.  Even Il
Corriere is too difficult in my opinion.  You should start with an easy grammar
book and a phrase book.  Contrary to popular belief, Italian is not an easy
language.  
If you do decide to use the Bible and Il Corriere, please let us know how well
it's working out for  you.  I taught Italian for several years and cannot
imagine any of my beginning students reading and understanding the Bible and Il
Corriere.  Learning the three conjugations, remembering genders, making
agreements, using tenses correctly etc....was overwhelming enough for them.
Good luck (buona fortuna)
Ari

reading and understanding the Bible and Il Corriere.
The letter Cambridge sends to students accepted to study Italian tells
them to spend the summer trying to do as much as possible of "Da Capo"
(Lazzarino et al), reading "La Bustina di Minerva" by Eco in
L'Espresso, and various other things.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
This .sig intentionally left blank.

 L'Espresso, and various other things.
In my opininion, any reading is just fine as long as it stirs your
interest. 
Nevertheless, if it's too difficult, it might be frustrating, as
you'll understand one word in ten, and you *might* get bored soon!
Then, much depends on what kind of language you are eager to learn.
The Bible, even a modern translation, is not everyday talk. But that's
quite obvious, I guess  :)
-- 
Enrico C
"But old fools is the biggest fools there is. Can't learn an old dog
new tricks, as the saying is."
M. TWAIN, "The Adventures of Tom Sawyer"

 reading "La Bustina di Minerva" by Eco in L'Espresso, and various other
things.
I guess it is because Eco is well known within the English universities. "La
bustina di Minerva" may be interesting, but it isn't written in so
incomparable a style. Correct, but not the only example of plain Italian one
can find.
Bye, FB

 either :)
If you please, that is also so-called Sicily dialect :). We don't speak
like mafia movies!
-- 
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ab...@newsland.it

 speak like mafia movies!
LOL!
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

>never hear in everyday conversation, ("tenebre" for example)
Where did I say that they are rare?  I said they are not used in everyday
conversation.  Tenebre is not that uncommon in literature, but when was the
last time you used it while talking to someone?  
Italian is complicated enough when you start with the basics, let alone
beginning with the Bible!   I can just imagine myself learning a new language,
let's say German, and beginning with a Bible in in that language.  I cannot
think of anything more discouraging.
Most people who want to learn Italian don't really know what they are up
against.  There is a popular belief that Italian is an easy language and it's
not.   I would advise everyone who intends to learn Italian to aquire a basic
knowledge of grammar and vocabulary before going on to literature or the
newspaper.
I hope this person is successful regardless of how he decides to approach the
language.  If he does decide to use the Bible, I'd be curious to know how
helpful that is.
bye
Ari

helpful that is.
I sometimes read Italian versions of books I know well to pick up
useful vocab. e.g. reading Orson Scott Card's "Alvin" books in Italian
taught me words like "rabdomanzia" which I might not have seen in a
newspaper for years and years.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
Sara' 'na svorta, aoh.

 newspaper for years and years.
Yes, pretty out of fashion as water-searching technique ;)
-- 
Enrico C
"Do you have any children?" 
"Never more than one a year."

 newspaper for years and years.
Incidentally, I'm about to read "Ender's Shadow".
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

 This is really surprising.
German grammar is much more difficult for English speakers, and most
people learn some French at school, which has a similar structure to
Italian.
-- 
Mary

 Incidentally, I'm about to read "Ender's Shadow".
I'm very dubious about the Shadow books. I thought Xenocide and
Children of the Mind were pretty dodgy too.
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 delle tenebre"
Right, and we say also "Mi trovo nelle tenebre" when we are very uncertain
about what we are doing.
-- 
PETITION: Correct my English errors, please! :-)
random anagram: Astronomers = Moon starers / No more stars
Maria Luisa C - 14/01/04 18.44.39, here.
http://fido.altervista.org/

Thank you all for your responses so far. I have already studied
Spanish and Portuguese extensively, so many of the concepts I'm
encountering in Italian look familiar. In English we have the Living
Bible (1972?), in Spanish the Nueva Versión Internacional (1999), and
in Portuguese the Nova Tradução na Linguagem de Hoje (1998), all of
which are in contemporary language. Since I'm already pretty familiar
with the text, it seems to make sense to study an Italian bible *if*
it's contemporary Italian. There are some English versions of the
Bible, such as the New American Standard, which are sort of
contemporary, sort of not, thus my curiosity about La Sacra Bibbia.
   Now, a question about dictionaries for a beginner. I live in
Brazil, and wow, are Port-><-It dictionaries expensive: the one I
really wanted is R$220, or about U$80. Amazon lists a number of
Eng-><-It dictionaries for much, much less, and I'm not ready for a
monolingual one yet. Any suggestions? I probably would prefer a fairly
complete desk version, but if there's a really good pocket-sized one
that would be acceptable too.

    Now, a question about dictionaries for a beginner.
This is covered extensively in our FAQs. You will also find links to online eng
<-> ita dictionaries, which are very handy.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

...

  Great; I didn't know there was an FAQ page. 
  In Spain I bought the It/Sp Comedia translated by Ángel Crespo. Am I
right in assuming the Italian would be too archaic for a novice?
  Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
   mi ritrovai per una selva oscura
   che la diritta via era smarrita
  Ah quanto a dir qual era è cosa dura
    esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte 
    che nel pensier rinova la paura!
  Tant'è amara che poco è piú morte;
    ma per trattar del ben ch' io vi trovai,
    dirò dell'altre cose ch'i' v'ho scorte.
  Io non so ben ridir com'io v'entrai,
    tant'era pieno di sonno a quel punto 
    que la verace via abbandonai.[...]

 right in assuming the Italian would be too archaic for a novice?
It's too archaic for some native speakers. Almost certainly
too archaic for me. However, I know UK universities make
people read this kind of stuff: if it's the reason you
want to learn Italian, then why not? 


 right in assuming the Italian would be too archaic for a novice?
Of course. Many high school students in Italy can't understand it without a
teacher explaining it to them. Dante Alighieri wrote it in the 13th century.
Would you suggest Shakespeare to somebody willing to learn common English? And
Shakespeare lived 300 years after Dante.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo