Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Hey Sebapop,

Just a heads up, "American accent training" has been posted to
a.b.world-languages. I thought this might interest you.  
Header: "(NMR) Barrons Series "[Languages] - Misc - English - American
Accent" posted on the 22nd. I've had a listen to the intro myself,
it's quite interesting. I've learnt how to say "better" (bedd-err) so
far :)

far :)
It's a lovely word. :)
I love how they say "Italy" and "spaghetti". :)
Sebastiano

I love how they say "Italy" and "spaghetti". :)
When I first entered this group I described the American accent as
"awful" :) a bit of an over statement on my behalf.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:19:08 GMT, jonny wrote:

How could I read that ng? I can't with 
news.tin.it
, 
news.individual.net
 or
news.gazeta.pl
.
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 a bit of an over statement on my behalf.
Bidder, bedder, budder! It's lovely!
Bitteh, betteh, buttah! It's funny. ;P
The British pronunciation of words ending with -ar and -er sounds
funny to my ears. :)
My Italian accent is awful, for example. :)
Sebastiano


news.gazeta.pl
.
I don't know, but it's not the only way to get that program.
If you want it the legal way, you buy it.
If you want it but you don't mind doing something that's not legal -
I'm not judging, just pointing it out - you can find in on eMule (just
checked).
Sebastiano



I asked just out of curiosity: may I neverrr haeeeve ayn Amurrican
aeeeccent. (witty face)
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 aeeeccent. (witty face)
Sounz ta me like yer equatin' a namerrigan accent with a texan accent. Not
the same, nosiree.
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 Bidder, bedder, budder! It's lovely!
I've just had a look-see at the book (fortunately Amazon lets you look
inside a bit) and I give it my Official Stamp of Approval. What little I've
seen is right on the money. I couldn'a seddit bedda myself.


aeeeccent. (witty face)
^_^
Sebastiano

My Italian accent is awful, for example. :)
Says who? You'll have to do a "come parlo" so we can all judge :)

the same, nosiree.
Where's the YEEHAW!? :)


news.gazeta.pl
.
It's a binary newsgroup, I don't know about tin but the rest you've
mentioned are text only.


wrote:

Download it as a try-before-you-buy of course :)



Yer raht -- ah fergaht! Sahrry!       YEEEEHAW!


 the same, nosiree.
You're right. For instance, John Edwards' accent is not bad (also Kerry's
sounds good).
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

Says who? You'll have to do a "come parlo" so we can all judge :)
My Italian regional accent when speaking Italian is aweful.
My English pronunciation is a mess.
Parlo troppo veloce - anche in italiano - mi mangio le parole,
pronuncio male perché non ho la scioltezza che vorrei. Se pronuncio
una frase, senza dovermi concentrare in quel che *voglio* dire, ne
viene fuori qualcosa di decente, ma comunque brutto.
Sebastiano



By the way, we were waiting for Sebba's English "come parlo"... (faccina
i-fatti-miei-mai)


Download it as a try-before-you-buy of course :)
Of course. ;)
Sebastiano

i-fatti-miei-mai)
Oh, you're right. One day... one day... Now I am still shocked for the
loss of my Montenegro and I have to cope with it, you know.
Sebastiano

Yer raht -- ah fergaht! Sahrry!       YEEEEHAW!
Non parlare mentre mangi! ;)
Sebastiano



You can record the file after drinking the amaro: "Hellou, ziz iz Zebba's
zbeaghing", and so on.




E come sapevi che stavo mangiando? (Oh. Perchè sto sempre mangiando?
Magari.)
Ho appena trovato la mia ricetta per Tiramisù, ma gl'ingredienti non li ho
in casa, e piove "cani e gatti" :) e non ho voglia di uscire...


 My Italian regional accent when speaking Italian is aweful.
The BBC doesn't think that the Veneto accent is that bad. The woman
whose voice is on the BBC Italian course is from the Veneto. Actually,
she is from the Province of Vicenza, and we all know that the
"magnato" accent is much superior to the "tutimati" accent. Then
again, maybe your accent really is that bad!   :>)
I listened to a few sound bites from the first two discs of  that
course, and there are some things which make me wince when I hear
them. After I have downloaded the rest of it and sampled a little
more, I'll give you a more informed opinion.
(Hey, Joey, have you heard any of it? Let us know what you think).
Joe from Massachusetts

 again, maybe your accent really is that bad!   :>)
magnagato


 again, maybe your accent really is that bad!   :>)
I think they should have used educated Tuscan or Roman speakers.



Have you heard her accent?
Joe from Massachusetts

 (Hey, Joey, have you heard any of it? Let us know what you think).
No, I haven't; I only looked at the book. I was too lazy to figure out
where to go (easy, easy; I know I'm leaving myself open) to download it.


 Have you heard her accent?
No, but I certainly would never use a speaker from Veneto for an Italian
course. Nor would I use a lombardo, or a piemontese, or a sicilian: just
educated toscani or educated romani.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Nasalization is just a part of life"
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)


You are saying then, that in their speech, all educated Romani and
Toscani are capable of eliminating all regionalisms, where the
Italians in the rest of Italy are not?
That would be just as bad as saying that only people from certain
cities in the US or the UK are capable of speaking an English worthy
of imitation.
When I first learned Italian (in Vicenza), I had many friends who were
in the Italian military, and I also had many friends who were
students, from all over the Northeast. Occasionally, I would be
sitting in a café with friends, and they would introduce me to other
friends who didn't know I was American. After a few minutes of
conversation, they would ask the newcomers if they could guess where I
was from by listening to my accent. No one ever guessed that I was not
Italian. I heard "Trento", "Torino", and many other places, but never
"Vicenza".  Inevitably I would have to show them my US Army ID Card,
to prove that I was American. I think that my accent was a composite
of all the people who had helped me learn Italian, which included
Venetians, Sicilians, Neopolitans, Romans, RAI, and people from all
over Italy.
I think that it is the same with educated Italians who are exposed to
the accents and dialects of other regions. They all (including the
Romans and the Tuscans) retain some flavor of the speech of their
place of origin, but I would not say that it is a defect, or that it
is unworthy of imitation.
I myself was born in New York and brought up in New York and New
Jersey, and over the years I have learned to speak without the accent
of my youth, but I revert back to it very easily when I go back to my
old neighborhoods.
Joe from Massachusetts


Do you use a newsreader (Agent, Xnews)?
Joe from Massachusetts

 Joe from Massachusetts
I'm currently using 40tude Dialog (which I like) but through Verizon; they
don't subscribe to as many newsgroups as I'd like.



Did I post the Betty Botter tongue twister already?  It's a cute one
bye
ari

 old neighborhoods.
In Italian it's much harder, in my opinion. The greater difficulties are 
"raddoppiamenti fonosintattici" ("a casa" ==> you should say [ak'kasa], but
here you say [a kaza] *; by the way, this doesn't mean that /z/ is always
wrong and /s/ is always right), open and closed vowels (I've recently
discovered that "dňtto" is the correct pronunciation, while I gave it for
granted "dótto" was), and voiced vs unvoiced consonants.
I think in English it's easier because to every wrong or regional sound
there usually corresponds one correct sound; not so in Italian **.
Moreover, English has a correct standard (BritEng, at least), while Italian
hasn't: only very good actors can pronounce Italian "correctly". You'll
hear learned professors speak with regional accents, it's quite common,
while in Britain I guess most educated people, wherever they come from,
comply with RP (or something like that), which is a spoken standard, not
just a standard.
* Zingarelli Dictionary now considers [kaza] spot-on and more modern.
** For example:
you say "moy" instead of "my", so you will also say "moynd" instead of
"mind". If you learn to say /mai/, you will also know that you have to say
/maind/.
Suppose you are from Milan and you say "ciélo" (instead of cičlo) and
"nero". Then you learn to say "cičlo", but this doesn't mean that "nčro" or
"mčlo" are correct. And it's not so easy to figure out when to say /e/ and
when to say /E/. So much so that people don't care, and nor do I.


Did I post the Betty Botter tongue twister already?  It's a cute one
Betty Botter bought some butter, but she said "this butter's bitter!
But a bit of better butter will but make my butter better" So she
bought some better butter, better than the bitter butter, and it made
her butter better so 'twas better Betty Botter bought a bit of better
butter!      
It's great!
Sebastiano

in casa, e piove "cani e gatti" :) e non ho voglia di uscire...
You're in NY, there's no online shopping were you can get the
ingredients delivered to you? ;)
Oh, io eviterei di elidere la i in gli, mi sa tanto di "old
fashioned". Nel parlato diventa "glěngredienti", questo sě.
Sebastiano

Then again, maybe your accent really is that bad!   :>)
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sebapop/Languages/Italian.wav
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sebapop/Languages/Italian2.wav
Isn't it awful?
Sebastiano

here you say [a kaza] *;
Su questo non sono d'accordo. Casa lo si sente ovunque come /kaza/,
anche in TV, da chi ha studiato dizione. Sono convinto che, nonostante
la sua diffusione e il suo esser la versione corretta, che /kasa/ sia
percepito come regionalismo, toscano o del sud.
Sebastiano


The problem with a standard is that it must be based on a pattern of
speech of some population of real people.
Whenever I was in Europe or Asia I always had a short-wave radio, so
that I could listen to music and news in English. I listened to the
BBC, the VOA, Radio Switzerland, Radio Luxembourg, and Radio Moscow.
It was very easy, when tuning the radio from station to station, to
identify Radio Moscow English. The English spoken by the Russian
announcers was unlike any other English - it was precise and clear,
unemotional, with no trace of an accent, and it was easily understood,
but it was also sterile and unnatural, not spoken by anyone in the
world, except by those announcers for Radio Moscow.
One reason that Esperanto never caught on is that there were no real
people who spoke it.
Joe from Massachusetts


A man of few words. He sounds Italian to me. Let's ask FB.   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

all of them?
Chi ha fatto dizione o chi è attento all'accento. Normalmente i romani
hanno un fortissimo accento, forte tanto quanto il veneto o il
lombardo (considera che non esiste un accento "veneto" e uno
"lombardo", ma questo tu sicuramente già lo sai). Quanto ai toscani,
sono la stessa cosa, anche se in direzione diversa. Hanno una parlata
molto vicina all'italiano, ma non metterei *mai* un toscano con l'h
aspirata a fare un corso di dizione.
La fatica che fanno i toscani per togliersi l'accento è abbastanza
bassa, credo (non so effettivamente quanto sia difficile togliersi
l'abitudine di aspirare l'acca). Non capisco perché FB abbia incluso i
romani. Forse non me ne intendo, ma a me l'accento romano sembra
fortissimo e quindi non vedo perché un *educated roman* dovrebbe far
meno fatica di un *educated milanese* a levarsi l'accento. Un veneto
fa più fatica, in quanto non lo fa nessuno. In Veneto chi è *educated*
parla col proprio accento, nella maggior parte dei casi.
Sebastiano

 He sounds Italian to me. Let's ask FB.   :>)
FB would tell you that I sound like someone from Veneto. :) And he's
right, my accent is quite strong. But yes, it is still Italian. 
Sebastiano

for an English course? 
"Julie" ha un accento di Manchester qui (si chiama Mancunian)
http://web.tiscali.it/lingue/


wrote:

I saw Susie sitting in a shoe shine shop.
Where she sits she shines, and where she shines she sits. 

Where she sits she shines, and where she shines she sits. 
^_^
Trentatre trentini entrarono a Trento, tutti e trentatre
trotterellando.
Tre tigri contro tre tigri
Sopra la panca la capra campa
sotto la panca la capra crepa
Apelle, figlio di Apollo, fece una palla di pelle di pollo. Tutti i
pesci venirono a galla, per vedere la palla di pelle di pollo fatta da
Apelle, figlio di Apollo.
E poi:
Tu che attacchi i tacchi, attacca a me i miei tacchi! Io attaccare i
tacchi a te? Attacca tu i tuoi tacchi, tu che attacchi i tacchi
Che però non ho mai sentito in italiano.
In Milanese: 
Ti che te tachet i tac, tacum a mi i me tac! Mi tacat i tac a ti?
Tacus ti i to tac, ti che te tachet i tac!
In Veronese
Ti che te tachi i tachi, tacheme ti i me tachi! Mi che te taca i to
tachi? Tachete ti i to tachi che mi me taco i me tachi
Varia la fine, nel mio dialetto. "attaccati tu i tuoi tacchi che io mi
attacco i miei tacchi"
Sebastiano



LOL! learn Mancunian in 10 mins..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/features/2002/11/07/talk_mancunian.shtml

 Tre tigri contro tre tigri
[...]
Se l’arcivescovo di Costantinopoli si disarcivescoviscostantinopolizzasse,
vi arcivescoviscostantonopolizzereste voi per
disarcivescoviscostantinopolizzare lui?
Il Papa pesa e pesta il pepe a Pisa e Pisa pesa e pesta il pepe al Papa
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

Il Papa pesa e pesta il pepe a Pisa e Pisa pesa e pesta il pepe al Papa
E questo non lo conoscevo!
Mi sono ora ricordato di un giochino che si faceva da bambini "hey,
prova a dire velocemente oga gatto bene" e tutti poi a ridacchiare
quanto il malcapitato pronunciava "ho cagato bene". :)
Sebastiano

 A man of few words. He sounds Italian to me. Let's ask FB.   :>)
Veneto, veneto! I think I can hear it in every word. In Italy everybody
speaks with a regional accent.


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/features/2002/11/07/talk_mancunian.shtml
That's very funny (if not particularly useful :) but I didn't get the
middle Mancunian phrase at all. I like "it was kickin'"




Lo Zingarelli scrive "casa" con due puntini sotto la "s", vale a dire che
la pronuncia sonora è più diffusa e moderna. 
Stavo tentando di dimostrare, però, che lo "standard" italiano non è uno
standard, perché non lo usa nessuno. Secondo me un inglese con un accento
regionale fa meno fatica ad adeguarsi all'RP rispetto a un italiano ad
adeguarsi all'accento "standard", infatti tutti hanno un accento regionale.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

speaks with a regional accent.
Un motivo in piů per non cercare parlanti che non esistono. ;)
Sebastiano

 fashioned". Nel parlato diventa "glěngredienti", questo sě.
Well, I am an old-fashioned kind of guy. A true "Renaissance Man!" 


 l'abitudine di aspirare l'acca).
Seba, volevi dire "aspirare la c", vero?
(hai sempre l'inglese in testa! ;-))
P.S. Comunque io sono di origini toscane e NON HO MAI ASPIRATO LA C!
(ma non vale, perché in casa mia nessuno lo faceva)
-- 
Maria Luisa C - 24/07/2004 15.47.08, here.
FAQ di Dialog in italiano:
http://fido.altervista.org/Dialog/faq.html
http://www.lillathedog.net/dialog/faq.html

 people who spoke it.
Amongst other things... (smiling face)
Adiau, FB


 stranieri.
Mah, non è il massimo che gli stranieri parlino con la "s" di Giovanna.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 (ma non vale, perché in casa mia nessuno lo faceva)
Nemmeno la "t"?


 
Io no, ma come ho detto sono stata fortunata perché in casa era così.
Voglio dire che non ne ho alcun merito, anche se mi ha sempre interessato la
dizione, e mi arrabbio un po' quando sento in TV tutte quelle vocali aperte
o chiuse a casaccio.
-- 
Maria Luisa C - 24/07/2004 16.20.50, here.


 Ciao, FB
I just watched "La Notte di San Lorenzo" on DVD. Am I mistaken, or did I
hear people (the Bishop in particular) using this aspirated C? It sounded
like he said "hasa" instead of "casa".


 Sebastiano
I listened and didn't hear anything "awful"; just a bit of an accent. But
then, my ear isn't trained to recognize Italian accents all that much.
When I was first learning to speak Italian, a friend's cousin had come to
visit from Bari. I said no more than three words to him in Italian and he
said "Milanese!" I had no idea what he meant, but I guess to him I had
somehow developed a Milanese accent.


 middle Mancunian phrase at all. I like "it was kickin'"
By the way, what can an American understand of this interview to J.R.R.
Tolkien?
http://www.geocities.com/misctolkien/tolkienradiointerview1971.ra
The trouble is not the accent, but the fact that it seems Tolkien spoke in
a strange way. I, for one, can but discern a few words, and I've listened
to that interview many times.
I also have a recording of Tolkien declaiming poems from "The Lord of the
Rings" (by the way, Sebba, do you still want it?), and he's far more
intelligible there.
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 middle Mancunian phrase at all. I like "it was kickin'"
Io sento "it was kicky" (Mancurian per "it was great")
Vedi anche 
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/k/k0054700.html
:
kicky
So unusual or unconventional in character or nature as to provide a thrill.
-- 
Xakero

 Io sento "it was kicky" (Mancurian per "it was great")
So even that I didn't get. :(


Mah, non č il massimo che gli stranieri parlino con la "s" di Giovanna.
Una s normalissima. Fossero quelli i problemi nell'imparare una
lingua.
Sebastiano

(ma non vale, perché in casa mia nessuno lo faceva)
Vale per ogni regionalismo, credo. Ci sono veneti con accenti più o
meno forti. Se non aspiri la c il tuo accento toscano è praticamente
identico all'italiano standard, qualunque cosa esso sia, visto che non
lo parla nessuno. :D
Sebastiano

 
http://www.geocities.com/misctolkien/tolkienradiointerview1971.ra
On the first go-round, I missed the first minute or two; he was nearly
unintellible. After that, however, I had no trouble understanding him about
98% of the time. I listened to the opening again, and found he was still
very difficult to understand.


Where she sits she shines, and where she shines she sits. 
There are dozens of tongue twisters, but the discussion centered on the
pronunciation of the double T.
ari


mmm, da dove viene questa versione? io so:
Ti che te tachet i tac, tacum i tac! Mi che tac i tac, tacà i tac a ti che
te tachet i tac? Tàchete ti i to tac!
for some more have a look here (impressive!):
http://www.uebersetzung.at/twister/

 te tachet i tac? Tàchete ti i to tac!
"tacàt i tac a ti", credo. La tua versione è grammaticalmente corretta, ma
la mia mi pare più naturale (sarebbe "attaccarti i tacchi a te").
Ciao, FB


mmm, da dove viene questa versione? io so:
Trovata su internet e copiata pari pari. Non essendo milanese non mi
sono nemmeno preoccupato di controllarla, sarebbe stato inutile. :)
Sebastianno


http://www.uebersetzung.at/twister/
ROTFL!
+ me lo -
+ vengo -
x non venir di -
non me lo - +
o x lo -
me lo - -. 
I think I was thirteen when I first read that. :)
Per i non italiani: 
+	più
-	meno
x	per
"menarselo" means "to masturbate"
"vengo" means "to come"
Sebastiano

I didn't get the middle Mancunian phrase at all. 
Phrase 3 was "sorted" & phrase 4 was "you're off your trolley".


Ma dove è andaho a finire questa discussione!
Ora capisco perche il senatùr vuole spostare il Senato a Milano.
Ha paura che troppo tempo passato a Roma gli darà un accento
romanesco.
SPQR - Senatùr Parla Quasi Romanesco.
Joe from Massachusetts



Thanks. It was 4 I didn't get... I did get "sorted." I'll listen to it
again.


 Sebastiano
LOL


romanesco.
ROTFL
Comunque io ho vissuto tre anni a Milano e mi prendevano in giro per
l'accento veneto, mentre a Verona mi prendevano in giro per l'accento
milanese. Il mio accento veronese non era piů cosě forte e il mio
parlare era pieno di pronunce tipiche milanesi. Ora il mio accento č
tornato quello che era. :)
Sebastiano

LOL
I was thinking about "menare" and it's a word with many meanings.
E ho inventato uno scioglilingua. Il secondo, anche se il primo è in
inglese.
Se te lo meni te le meno
Se non te lo meni non te le meno
Se te lo meni meno per lo meno te le meno meno!
"te le meno" means "ti picchio". :)
Oh, the "tongue-twister" I invented is this:
A chick can duck, but a duck can't chick. And the duck can duck, but
the chick can't chick. The chick is a chicken, but the duck is not a
ducken. The duck is a ducker, but the chick is not a chicker. 
BTW, who's Beppo?
I found this:
www.bucadibeppo.com
 :P
Sebastiano

  :P
I always thought Beppo was a nickname for Giuseppe. It's kind of a funny
name (but I like it) so I occasionally call myself that.


name (but I like it) so I occasionally call myself that.
Silly me! I didn't think about it. Here in the north it's Beppe.
Sebastiano

So even that I didn't get. :(
No you did :) She definitely said "Kickin'", I've never heard of
"kicky" before.



Here: 
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/k.htm



EXCELLent! I passed. Manchester, here I come!  :)




Come "Ehilà, Beppe!". Esiste anche "Peppo", perciò: "Beppe", "Beppo",
"Peppo", e non vedo perché non debba esistere "Peppe".


"Peppo", e non vedo perché non debba esistere "Peppe".
Forse qualcuno lo usa. :)
Da me, nessuno. Nel mio dialetto si dice "Bčpi", o almeno credo. Non
l'ho mai usato (non uso nemmeno il dialetto) ma ho sempre pensato
fosse il diminutivo di Giuseppe.
Sebastiano

 wrote in message
news:t9a5g0lo1lop740ba...@4ax.com...

Č stata la mia esperienza che l'eccessivo consumo di polenta senza
l'effetto salubre della pummarola esercita una influenza negativa
sulla lingua, e cosi sul linguaggio. La mia soluzione da anni č stata
da fare la pizza con la farina gialla. Con un po' di parmigiana e
mozzarella di bufala, puň trasformare una pizza terribile in un
oratore.  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

te tachet i tac? Tàchete ti i to tac!
no...e' l'altra quella giusta.
bye
ari

 Where she sits she shines, and where she shines she sits.
Well of course, she sells sea shells by the sea shore.
But what she doesn't know is that
(try to say it three times, fast)
I slit a sheet, a sheet I slit, upon a slitted sheet I sit.
Oh, and 
(also this one; three times, fast)
One smart feller, he felt smart.
I'm so glad I've never grown up! :)


oratore.  :>)
LOL!
Sebastiano

 Veneto. Her accent is not strong, but she *is* veneta.
Again, I have listened to some dialogues and I couldn't definitely tell she
is from Veneto. I'd say she's a northerner because she once says "béne"
instead of "bène", but not much more than that. Perhaps not enough for a
theatre stage, perfectly fine for the intended target of the BBC site, imho.
Lorenzo

 theatre stage, perfectly fine for the intended target of the BBC site, imho.
Se un accento regionale (come il mio, s'intende) è inevitabile, forse hai
ragione.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 like he said "hasa" instead of "casa".
My family was in the Church whom history is filmed in "La notte di san
Lorenzo".
E.L:

 lo parla nessuno. :D
Non only "-c-".
"-t-" and "-p-" too, and some colloquial expressions.
After that, florentin, senese, pistoiese e lucchese languages are
practically identical to italian std.
For ohter tuscan speakers (Pisa, Livorno, Viareggio e Massa, Grosseto,
particularly Arezzo) there are some more attentions.
Ered Luin, from Florence

 Lorenzo".
'whose'
Ma non sentirti male, recentemente ho scritto 'who's' invece di 'whose'.

 ha scritto nel
messaggio news:2n5141F...@uni-berlin.de...

No problem :-)
E.L.