Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: esercizio di grammatica (wouldn't have thought...)

In un noto testo di grammatica ho trovato il seguente tipico esercizio 
di riformulazione:
 
I wouldn't have thought there's much chance of the package being here 
before Friday.
I ............ here before Friday.(doubt)
 
La soluzione proposta è la seguente:
I doubt if/whether the package will be here before Friday.
 
Ho l'impressione che le due frasi non siano affatto equivalenti!
La prima si riferisce ad un passato recente (I wouldn't have 
thought...): il pacco è arrivato prima di venerdì, nonostante le mie 
aspettative.
La seconda al futuro (I doubt if...): non so se il pacco arriverà entro 
venerdì.
 
Ho ragione?
 
Per la cronaca, il libro in questione e' "Grammar and Vocabulary for CAE 
and CPE" (Longman 2002)

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Mmh... Non so. Secondo gli esempi che  si trovano sul sito di una scuola 
di lingue, quell'espressione si può usare anche riferita al presente. 
Comunque attendi conferma da qualche native speaker.
 
http://www.ihbristol.com/english-phrases/example/2015-12-08
 
 
Example 1
 
     Do you think there will be many students at tonight's barbecue party?
     I woudn't have thought so. The forecast says it's going to rain and 
most of the students have a big test tomorrow.
 
 
Example 2
 
     Are there many Korean restaurants in Bristol?
     I wouldn't have thought so but you can try looking in the Yellow Pages.
     Thanks.
 
 

"ant"  wrote in message 
news:5279df8b$0$23125$4faf...@reader2.news.tin.it...
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Ha ragione il testo di grammatica.
 
'I would (not) have thought' = conditional perfect , not present perfect.
 
Ma è una questione di uso , non di grammatica.
 
'Is there much chance of the package being here before Friday?' 'I wouldn't 
have thought so.' (='I wouldn't have thought there is...')
 
'I wouldn't have thought there is much chance...' and 'I doubt if...'  hanno 
lo stesso significato : 'non credo che il pacco arriverà, ma non ne sono 
sicuro'  ('non so ' da solo non è giusto).
 
Ma non mi sento in  grado di spiegarlo esaurientemente in italiano! It 
defies logic : basically , 'I wouldn't have thought...' is the apodosis 
following an implied protasis  such as 'if you had asked me'  ; you might 
object (correctly) that the verb in the apodosis should , following a 
natural tense sequence, be 'was', not 'is' , yet we say 'is' (no doubt led 
by the sense of it being a currently unresolved possibility), yet 'was' 
would be perfectly ok too , with the same meaning . Moreover , as you can 
see from my example above, we might use the same construction not in 
relation to the implied condition of a question in the past , but in reply 
to an actual question in the present , where it is clearly illogical (not 
much logic in saying to someone 'I'd have thought ... if you'd asked me' 
when the person actually is asking you now) ; of course , you might also 
reply 'I don't think there's much chance...' ; the conditional (not only in 
English , of course) is often used to give a more tentative , less 
assertive,tone  to an opinion or request, etc., and that seems to be the 
case here , though such usages are very hard to explain clearly.
 
Mike 
 

 such usages are very hard to explain clearly.
 
I think you did great! :)

 such usages are very hard to explain clearly.
 
It is not the conditional that puzzles me but the choice of the tense. 
As a non native speaker, it would never occur to me to use a condional 
perfect... I'd rather pick the present conditional
"Is there much chance of the package being here before Friday?" "I 
woulnd't think so (I woulnd't say so)"
Is the usage of the present conditional, as above, totally wrong?
 

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Only the spelling is wrong.
I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't say so.
You can say it so. It is more common than saying "I wouldn't have 
thought so."
 

 thought so."
 
Okay, thank you.