Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Old English - Anglosassone: come imparare?

Ciao a tutti!
Quando, l'anno scorso, agli albori dello studio della letteratura di
Inglese, ci hanno presentato Beowulf e la cultura anglosassone, sono
rimasto estasiato e particolarmente affascinato dal suono davvero magico
che aveva la loro lingua. Innanzitutto vorrei avere un chiarimento se
possibile: l'Old English e la lingua di Beowulf (che spero sia
l'Anglosassone) sono la stessa cosa? Se cosě non fosse, qual č la
differenza?
Vedendo i film de "Il Signore degli Anelli" inevitabilmente la mia
"simpatia" nei confronti di quella lingua non č potuta che aumentare, e ora
vorrei chiedervi se qualcuno di voi sa come posso avere un primo approccio
allo studio dell'Anglosassone, perché mi piacerebbe molto approfondire
l'argomento. Ho saputo che "Thčoden" significa principe in anglosassone, č
vero?
Da dove posso iniziare per studiare la grammatica e le particolaritŕ di
quella lingua? C'č qualche libro?
Se prendessi Beowulf con il testo in inglese moderno a fianco non credo che
mi servirebbe a granché...
Grazie a chiunque potrŕ aiutarmi!
Ciao :-)
Luca

 rimasto estasiato e particolarmente affascinato dal suono davvero magico
I share the same fascination. Mine began in high school when, in the study
of modern English, we were presented with an Old-English transcription of
the Lord's Prayer. Someone read it aloud (although I realize now it wasn't
a very accurate reading, as far as the actual sound) and I became caught up
in studying it. I found a better rendering at this site:
http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/paternoster-oe.html
It's presented in the original Old English, with (literal) modern English
translations, and there are clickable/downloadable links where you can hear
the phrases as they would be spoken, as well as the whole prayer at once.
There are various books on the subject (the only ones I know of are in
English, however) but there are those that I've used:
A Guide to Old English, by Bruce Mitchell and Fred C. Robinson
Publisher: Blackwell Publishers Ltd, 108 Cowley Rd, Oxford OX4 1JF, UK
ISBN: 0-631-16657-2
A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary, by J.R. Clark Hall
Publisher: University of Toronto Press
ISBN: 0-8020-6548-1
Old English Grammar and Reader, by Robert E. Diamond
Publisher: Wayne State University Press, Detroit
ISBN: 0-8143-1510-0
Beowulf, a new verse translation by Seamus Haney
Publisher: Farrar, Strauss and Giroux, 19 Union Square West, NY, NY 10003
ISBN: 0-374-11119-7
This book features Old English on one page and a modern English translation
on the facing page, which sounds like it would be ideal, but you will
really need some introductory work first. It's written in the classic
poetic format; "A Guide to Old English" goes into more detail about the
syntax of this poetry, and has a basic grammar. If you get only one book, I
would suggest that one (the first on this list.)
As for "principe", yes the word is "ðéoden", the first letter having a
voiced-th sound.
Good Luck!
-- 
Pear pea a chair, Ray. Core Reggie eel me oh eat alien, oh... :)
Joey DoWop, working on a temporary account.

 vero?
Boh... So che una delle prime parole del Beowulf č "ţeodcyninga" ("sovrani
dei popoli"), che un po' ci assomiglia...
--
Cingar
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 dei popoli"), che un po' ci assomiglia...
Immagino che "sovrani" sia "cyninga".
Ciao, FB
-- 
Nasalization is just a part of life.
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

       dictionary- 4th ed. (Cambrigde, 1969)
** Conosco entrambi i libri e sono buoni. Se hai difficoltà a procurarteli
fammelo sapere che ti faccio le fotocopie delle parti che ti possono
servire.
 Se vuoi io ho un libro che introduce sull'argomento in modo chiaro anche
se
un po' sommario (ma dopotutto va bene per incominciare):
B. Mitchell and F. Robinson, "A Guide to Old English" - Oxford, Blackwell,
5th Edition, 1992. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monumentale opera in due volumi (884 e 1124 pagg.) "Old English Syntax: the
Parts of Speech and the Sentence" e "Old English Syntax: Subordination,
Independent Elements and Element Order"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reading List
- B Mitchell, An Invitation to Old English and Anglo-Saxon Studies,
Blackwell: Oxford, 1994 
(Devised as a "prequel" to Mitchell and Robinson, qv., this book is really
a survey of contexts: linguistic, literary, historical, archaeological.
Perhaps rather large to serve as a true beginner's book, it nevertheless
contains a lot of interesting material, and good bibliographies.) 
- B Mitchell and F C Robinson, A Guide to Old English, 5th edition,
Blackwell: Oxford, 1992 
(Probably now the "standard" OE textbook. The texts are mostly
unnormalised.) 
- N Davis (rev), Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer, 9th edition, Clarendon Press:
Oxford, 1953 
(Although replaced by Mitchell and Robinson in some respects, still
unrivalled for accuracy, intellectual coherence, clarity and conciseness.
The texts are normalised to Early West Saxon.) 
- J J Smith, An Introduction to Old English, 5th edition, Department of
English Language, University of Glasgow: Glasgow (in preparation) 
(This booklet will replace the current fourth edition. If you take this
subject on to Higher Ordinary level, you will use this book. It is designed
to build on the material in the current pamphlet, with a greater emphasis
on literary texts such as the homilies of Ælfric and Old English poetry. It
is accompanied by a tape, and by STELLA laboratory sessions.) 
- D Whitelock (rev), Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Reader, 15th edition corrected,
Clarendon Press: Oxford, 1970 (Still the best collection of "canonical"
texts edited for student use. Not normalised; a selection of non-West Saxon
texts is included.) 
See also: 
- C L Barber, The English Language: an historical introduction, Cambridge
UP; Cambridge, 1992 
(an account of the history of English, full of information and expressed in
a theoretically-informed way.) 
- M Godden and M Lapidge (eds), The Cambridge Companion to Old English
Literature, Cambridge UP: Cambridge, 1991 
(A valuable set of essays by leading scholars of Old English, written for
the non-expert.) 
UNQUOTE
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

the phrases as they would be spoken, as well as the whole prayer at once.
Fascinating. I didn't realise that old English was so diverse from the
modern. "and forgyf us ure" were the only recognisable words I heard.
I used to wonder why anyone would want to learn a dead language like
Latin. But know, trying to study a language myself, I can see why.

 But know, trying 
But *now*, trying

 Latin. But know, trying to study a language myself, I can see why.
If you listen a couple of times, you'll get more of it.
Take, for example, the line:
on eorğan swa swa on heofonum
(on earth as (it is) in heaven.)
The OE words look very strange, but when you hear eorğan and heofonum, you
can definitely recognize them. They sound like "airthan" and "hehv&n&m".
The word order is different, too, which makes a bit more difficult.
Fascinating, still.


 the phrases as they would be spoken, as well as the whole prayer at once.
That's Old Ammeregan! (witty face) Rs should be rolled, to begin with.
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" apparso su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 trying to study a language myself, I can see why.
Latin never died, just evolved.
 
-- 
oggi no, domani sì

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:07:11 GMT, ADPUF wrote:

Anche Sandra Milo...
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 e da alcuni siti.
Credo che siano più che sufficienti per ora! Caspita, grazie davvero!!!
Luca

 English, however) but there are those that I've used:
Thank you very much, I think you wrote me an excessive number of books :-).
Unfortunately, I don't have the necessary time to study like at the
University, but I'll follow your advice and I'll maybe buy "A guide to Old
English".
Bye :-)
Luca

 Luca

 l'alfabeto latino.[...]
Mi risulta però che anche le scritture della Terra di Mezzo, come le lingue,
siano frutto solo della fantasia di Tolkien.
La scrittura "cirth" (quella dei nani)è liberamente ispirata alle rune
germaniche (alle quali somiglia molto esteriormente, tanto che pare gli
sceneggiatori dei recenti film, che non ho visto, abbiano erroneamente usato
le rune vere), così come la più famosa "tengwar" (quella degli elfi) è
chiaramente ispirata alle scritture dell'India, in particolare alla
devanagari.


 de "Il Signore degli Anelli" non ha nulla a che fare con l'anglosassone
The Rohirrim do speak Old English.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura",
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi's opinion on it.cultura.linguistica -
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 con alcuna delle altre antiche lingue germaniche
Veramente la lingua del popolo di Rohan viene resa da JRRT con l'antico
inglese.
NB: non è che *parlassero* antico inglese: semplicemente nelal finzione di
aver trovato un antico manoscritto e di averlo ritradotto in lignuaggio
moderno, al popolo di Rohan fa parlare antico inglese.
Non a caso il linguaggio del libro, cioè quello degli hobbit, viene reso con
l'inglese moderno (e non a caso gli hobbit avevano lontane parentele
linguistiche e forse genetiche col popolo umano di Rohan) .
Lo dice esplicitamente JRRT nelle Appendici.
E.L.

 Ciao, FB
I thought they spoke Sindarin, a language fabricated by Tolkien, loosely --
very loosely -- based on Welsh)...
http://www.fact-index.com/s/si/sindarin.html
at any rate, it's not Old English.


 very loosely -- based on Welsh)...
Elves speak Sindarin (and Quenya, BTW). The Rohirrim are humans and their
language came from Old English.
http://www2.thphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/~ansgar/languages.shtml
Sindarin is indeed based on Welsh and Quenya is based on Finnish.
Black Speech (Sauron, Nazgul, orks, uruks...) may be related to
Hittite/Hurrian 
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/orkish.htm
Sebastiano
-- 
Dr. Cox : No matter where you go in life, always keep an eye out for
Johnny, the tackling Alzheimer's patient.
J.D. : Now what's that supposed to mean?
Patient: [Tackling J.D. from out of nowhere, shouting] Who am I? 

 language came from Old English.
Arrggh! Am I going to have to read it AGAIN...??


 Arrggh! Am I going to have to read it AGAIN...??
It wouldn't be a waste of time, it's a masterpiece. :)
Sebastiano
-- 
Lindsey: If you're finished, this is the men's room.
Sydney : Who let you in?