Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: conditionals

Scusate se vi rompo di nuovo :)
Mi aiutate a collegare la distinzione tra condizionale reale e non reale a 
quella tra condizionale di tipo 0 1 2 3?
Io riconduco il C1 al Present Real, e il C2 al Present Unreal, mentre per 
gli altri sono in confusione, provo a confrontare gli esempi ma non mi torna 
qualcosa. Forse il C0 è anche riconducibile al Present Real? E forse il C3 
al Future Unreal?
E gli altri?
Grazie a tutti 

 al Future Unreal?
C0) Sentences that states absolute and/or commonly accepted facts:
"If you study you learn".
"If you're C. Norris you cannot die".
C1) Sentences that contain a condition (you call me back) which, if/when 
satisfied, will trigger the mentioned event (I'll help you):
"If you call me back, I'll help you".
"If you don't help me, I'll kill you, you son of a bitch".
C2) Sentences that contain a condition (I have more power = enough 
power) that isn't satisfied right now, but that could be satisfied in 
the future, and when/if satisfied, might still trigger the mentioned event:
"If I had more power, I would kick you out".
"Were I you, you still wouldn't be me".
C3) Sentences that contain a condition (I'm wiser = wiser enough) which 
should have been satisfied in the past but wasn't. Now it's too late.
"If I had been wiser, I would have seen that coming".
"If I had known it in advance, I would have still done the same, but 
with more pleasure".
Kiuhnm


Your explanation here is not clear. Your examples do not illustrate
your explanation,  something that is improbable in the future, but
rather the use of  C2 to imagine something that is impossible in the
present  .
E.g.
"If you were English, you wouldn't have all these doubts." (impossible
in the present)
"If you checked a good grammar before asking, you wouldn't ask such
silly questions" (improbable in the present and future)
You can also sometimes mix C2 and C3
E.g.
" If I'd seen him before, I'd know what he looks like." (unfulfilled
condition in the past, impossible result in the present)
"If i could speak Norwegian, I wouldn't have had problems when I went
to Oslo" (untrue condition in the present, impossible result in the
past)
But it's much the same in Italian, as long as you learn that, since
the subjunctive doesn't really exist in English, what is "congiuntivo
imperefetto" in Italian is a "simple past" in English, and what is
"congiuntivo trapassato" is an English "past perfect".
Claudia

 present  .
Honestly, I don't agree. It depends on what you think is impossible and 
improbable.
Kiuhnm

 Present Unreal? Never heard of it.
nel mio libro erano distinti cosě. in rete ho trovato questo come esempio: 
http://www.englishpage.com/conditional/presentconditional.html
Ciao 


Ok.
present real = C0
present unreal (+ continuous) = C2
past real = C0
past unreal (+ continuous) = C3
future real = C1
future unreal (+ continuous) = C2
Kiuhnm

Grazie Kiuhnm e Claudia (spero di cavarmela meglio da sola d'ora in poi) :) 


I should have known! You have found a way of you becoming me or me
becoming you.... when are you going to share the secret?
:-)
Claudia

 :-)
Never, but what about my first sentence
"If I had more power, I would kick you out"?
I might acquire more power in the near future, mightn't I?
Kiuhnm


You might indeed acquire more might, but your explanation was
incomplete all the same.
Claudia


Ah! And if you become almighty you might even find a way of you
becoming me and me becoming you!
Ciao ciao
Claudia

 incomplete all the same.
There is no complete explanation about these things. Do you really think 
that your explanation and your examples cover all the cases?
I didn't even try to document all the possible cases and situations, but 
you said that my explanation is incomplete because it doesn't illustrate
"something that is improbable in the future, but
rather the use of  C2 to imagine something that is impossible in the
present" and I can't accept that because it's untrue.
My example DOES illustrate "something that is improbable in the future". 
It contemplates the case when something is impossible in the present 
-->AND<-- improbable in the future.
If you think this is a different case, then you missed a case too 
(impossible in the present -->AND<-- improbable in the future).
Kiuhnm

 There is no complete explanation about these things. 
Come gią notato  da Claudia, la tua spiegazione non spiegava il tuo secondo
esempio, "Were I you...", e in questo senso era incompleta.
-- 

 esempio, "Were I you...", e in questo senso era incompleta.
1) Are we talking of the same post?
Claudia wrote:
"Your explanation here is not clear. Your examples do not illustrate
your explanation,  something that is improbable in the future, but
rather the use of  C2 to imagine something that is impossible in the
present."
Let's make it more explicit:
"Your examples do not illustrate your explanation (i.e. something that 
is improbable in the future) but rather the use of  C2 to imagine 
something that is impossible in the present."
"Were I you..." does just that, so Claudia said the opposite of what you 
say she said.
Kiuhnm

"Were I you, you still wouldn't be me".
Almeno il tuo secondo esempio (che era ipotesi di fantasia cioè
impossibilità nel presente) non era spiegato; ed era quello che
cercavo di dire, come Enrico ha colto. Sei tu che hai capito tutto il
contrario. Ammetto che, per fretta, inizialmente mi era parso che
entrambi gli esempi non c'entrassero con la tua spiegazione, anche se
poi, cercando di usare un po' di humour, mi sono corretta. Ma tu, come
sempre quando ti si contraddice, la meni e la rimeni.
Non penso di dare spiegazioni perfette, quello semmai sei tu, ti
assicuro però che qualche esperienzuccia da insegnante ce l'ho, e che
qualche pensiero, forse in più di te, sulle ipotetiche e su come
"porgerle" l'ho fatto e continuo a farlo.
If I were you I'd try to be a bit less touchy and accept that other
people can complement what you have to say.
Claudia

 people can complement what you have to say.
Whatever. The post I'm replying to clearly shows that you are addressing 
me but thinking about yourself.
There isn't anything more to say.
Kiuhnm

present  .
Traduco: <<La tua spiegazione qui non è chiara. I tuoi esempi non
illustrano la tua spiegazione, (cioè) qualcosa che è improbabile nel
futuro, ma piuttosto l'uso del C2 per immaginare qualcosa di
impossibile nel presente>> ergo : spiegazione non coerente con
esempi(o) fatto. Se mi sono sognata di avere detto ciò allora deve
averlo fatto anche Enrico. Che avrei potuto esprimerlo meglio se non
fossi stata di fretta  posso pure essere d'accordo, ma non concordo
sul fatto che fosse in contraddizione con quello che ho cercato di
ripetere in questi giorni, e cioè che la tua spiegazione era
incompleta.
Purtroppo anch'io sono afflitta dalla mania di insistere se penso di
aver ragione, e per questo mi scuso con gli altri.
Claudia

 Parli del C2 solo per l'improbabilità nel futuro.
My explanation tries to unify the two/three cases.
"C2: sentences that contain a condition that is not satisfied right now"
This is a propriety common to all our cases.
"but that could be satisfied in the future"
This <<should have meant>> that here we have two sub-cases:
1) the condition can be satisfied in the future, and
2) the condition cannot be satisfied in the future.
But the problem is that I wrote "satisfied" instead of "satisfiable"!!! 
Damn!
You win :-)
Kiuhnm