Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Un dubbio semplice, da bravo ignorante....

La lettera � appena arrivata:
The letter IS just arrived - The letter HAS just arrived
Quale delle due? Prima, seconda, entrambe?

 il present perfect
Se le mie rimembranze di grammatica non mi tradiscono, non si puï¿œ fare 
la forma passiva di un verbo intransitivo come "to arrive".

 la forma passiva di un verbo intransitivo come "to arrive".
Però Mandela l'ha fatta :)
(però era di "to arrive at")
"In all disputes, a point is arrived at where no party, no matter how
right or wrong it might have been at the start of that dispute, will
any longer be totally in the right or totally in the wrong. Such a
point I believe, has been reached in this debate."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/833996.stm

 
The second and only the second is natural.
The first is either incorrect entirely or very affected sounding, oddly and 
humorously poetic.
-- 
Joe/Joey da New York
English as she is spoken (and sometimes written) in the US

 (meglio mail, no?) is arrived"
On the contrary, it *is* wrong, and the presence of "just" (or its absence) 
has no bearing on this.


 The letter HAS just arrived
Ok, thanks!
Mi ha tradito "la lettera � appena arrivata", in italiano... 

 in this debate."
Non � la sua madrelingua.
-- 
Be careful of reading health books, you might die of a misprint.
    -- Mark Twain

"Starflex" <XXX...@XXXXX.XXX> ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:hf1gok$nvt$1...@tdi.cu.mi.it...

Magari pu� essere utile sapere che l'ausiliare per coniugare il passato 
prossimo in Inglese � solo have (avere) e non anche be (essere) come in 
italiano.
ciao, Janis

 (essere) come in italiano.
Esatto, il problema � che a volte continuo a fare traduzione letterale 
dall'italiano... (.."a volte" � riduttivo...!) 

 dall'italiano... (.."a volte" � riduttivo...!) 
Un'americana che studia italiano gi� da due anni e mezzo ha il problema 
inverso. La met� delle volte devo tradurre parola per parola in inglese 
per capire cosa vuole dire.
Es.
- la prossima volta guardiamo un film che si chiama _______
- Che � di?
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 wrote in
message news:hf2hc8$os6$1...@aioe.org...

How about "Buongiorno, notte" for your next film presentation? It would help
explain some of the history which Giordana skirts around, and besides, Maya
Sansa stars in both films.
Joe from Massachusetts

 Sansa stars in both films.
Mai visto, lo guarder�. Comunque non sono neanche a met� con La Meglio 
Giovent�. 'sti americani non � che siano troppo motivati. Poi se tolgo i 
sottotitoli in inglese non capiscono un cazzo. By the way, last week I 
met a girl who studies in some private college in Chicago and I had a 
look at her notes on... 13th and 14th Italian literature! Freaking a!!! 
That was pretty much what I studied in high school.
:-o
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 13th and 14th Italian literature! Freaking a!!! 
.. century...

 - Che � di?
C'� un errore qui? Quale?
ciao, Janis 

 .. century..
I didn't think Collodi wrote that far back.
While we are on the subject, RAI won't let us foreigners watch their version
of Pinocchio.
Joe from Massachusetts
.

 wrote in
message news:hf3e8h$1ji$1...@aioe.org...

It would be interesting to know if the classes in that private college were
conducted in English or in Italian. While I was at the university, many of
the courses in French, Spanish and Russian literature were conducted in
English, because the teachers, usually graduate assistants, didn't speak the
language involved well enough to conduct a class in the language.
Joe from Massachusetts

 C'ï¿œ un errore qui? Quale?
"Di chi ï¿œ?"
ï¿œ la frase che usiamo noi.
-- 
"I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year's
fashions."
                -- Lillian Hellman

 of Pinocchio.
Gi�.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 conducted in English or in Italian. 
In Italian. The notes are actually photocopies from a real Italian 
literature book, one that looked very much like any textbook used in 
liceo classico or liceo scientifico. The professor is from Tuscany, I 
met him last week when I was invited to attend a lecture. They were 
watching a movie, La Mandragola, whose plot is apparently very close to 
Machiavelli's work. It was without subtitles and the class seemed to 
understand most of the dialogues. There were quite a few expressions 
that were quite oldish, though.
The course, the girl said, is taught entirely in Italian.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 ï¿œ la frase che usiamo noi.
Dopo averci pensato su qualche decina di secondi, ero arrivato alla 
conclusione che la tpia voleva dire:"What's that about?"... e ci avevo 
preso.
:-D
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 problema ï¿œ solo semantico? (ad es nulla puï¿œ "arrivare da solo")
Semantico? No, semplicemente i verbi intransitivi, cioï¿œ quelli che non 
accettano il complemento oggetto, non hanno la forma passiva. Ci sono le 
dovute eccezioni, ma non credo sia il caso di perderci tempo sopra, per ora.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 liceo classico or liceo scientifico. The professor is from Tuscany, I
The courses taught in the Italian liceo are similar to courses taught in
honors programs in some American public high schools or in private schools,
but these are a small minority of American students.
It is possible to graduate from Harvard University after having taken only
two introductory courses in a foreign language.
�Any student who has not met the language requirement upon entrance
ordinarily is required to enroll in and complete with a passing letter grade
an appropriate full-year language course or two half-year language courses
in a single language during the first year of residence.�
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~rll/undergraduate/language_requirement.html
Harvard has also dumbed down its requirements for students majoring in
English.
�You say you're an English major---but you've never read a word of Chaucer,
you don't know which century Dickens wrote in (wasn't he the author of
"Scrooged"---or was that Bill Murray?), and you think "The Rape of the Lock"
is about a guy with a sexual fixation involving keyholes.
Guess where you go to college? Harvard!�
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2008/12/4/english-dept-approves-overhaul-of-undergraduate/
If the English major is studying so little English at Harvard, what about
the Harvard student who is majoring in some field other than English? What
about the student at the less-prestigious universities?
Imagine an Italian college graduate who has never studied Dante or Boccaccio
or Petrarch.
The purpose of the American education is to provide degrees to students, not
to educate them.
Joe from Massachusetts


[-]
I wince every time I hear one of the TV personalities discussing the news
about the earthquake in L'Aquila or the trial of the American girl in
Perugia. The pronunciation is "La Qu�lla", with the the accent on the "i",
or "Pe-ro�-ghee-a", with a hard g.
Joe from Massachusetts

 to educate them.
Io lo dico da 20 anni e nessuno mi crede!
E tutti gli Italiani che aspirano a studiare l�, e le normative che stanno 
trasformando le Uni italiane in quella robaccia l�.
Sempre il mio ex newyorkese era laureato a Princeton in filosofia. Era 
vergognoso quanto sapesse poco di filosofia rispetto a qualsiasi ragazzino 
italiano col diploma del Liceo Classico! Ah e aveva fatto due anni di Russo 
l�, col risultato di conoscere qualche decina di parole e una dozzina di 
frasi fatte...
Se proprio le Uni italiane vogliono imitare quelle americane, iniziassero 
dai servizi agli studenti, dalle bliblioteche funzionanti, dalle opportunit� 
di lavoro, dalle possibilit� di tutorship, dalla valutazione dei prof da 
parte degli studenti.
Io avevo pi� servizi nel pulcioso college californiano che mi vergogno pure 
a nominare (anche il nome suona sfigato!) che alla Sapienza di Roma dove mi 
chiedevo dove fosse il diploma di sopravvivenza insieme alla laurea! :)
Scusate il poderoso OT!
ciao, Janis 

 English as she is spoken (and sometimes written) in the US
Why do you use -she- Should it be English as it is spoken (and
sometimes written) in the US?
ciao

 > to students, not to educate them.
My father said USA are 20 years before Italy, give us some time
we will reach your level.
:-)
-- 
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four.
Unless there are three other people."
                -- Orson Welles

 the "i", or "Pe-roï¿œ-ghee-a", with a hard g.
I've read that the British media think that Miss Amanda Knox is
guilty, the American media think she is not guilty.
I have read nothing about how Irish media report that trial.
-- 
The worst cliques are those which consist of one man.
    -- G.B. Shaw

):

Yes, you are absolutely correct, and I hope it hasn't caused any confusion. 
There was some discussion about it briefly here a while back. Considering 
that it might continue to cause confusion, I'll add an informative disclaimer 
to my signature file. (See below.)
The line is meant to be humorous.
-- 
Joe/Joey da New York
English as she is spoken (and sometimes written) in the US.
"English as She Is Spoke" is the common name of a 19th century book credited 
to Josï¿œ da Fonseca and Pedro Carolino, which was intended as a 
Portuguese-English conversational guide or phrase book, but is regarded as a 
classic source of unintentional humour.

 
Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_As_She_Is_Spoke
for a good laugh.
-- 
Joe/Joey da New York
English as she is spoken (and sometimes written) in the US.
"English as She Is Spoke" is the common name of a 19th century book credited 
to Josï¿œ da Fonseca and Pedro Carolino, which was intended as a 
Portuguese-English conversational guide or phrase book, but is regarded as a 
classic source of unintentional humour.
From, which also see for a laugh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_As_She_Is_Spoke

 wrote in
message news:hf2hc8$os6$1...@aioe.org...

How about "Buongiorno, notte" for your next film presentation? It would help
explain some of the history which Giordana skirts around, and besides, Maya
Sansa stars in both films.
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in
message news:hf2hc8$os6$1...@aioe.org...

How about "Buongiorno, notte" for your next film presentation? It would help


From, which also see for a laugh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_As_She_Is_Spoke
Veramente divertente quello che dice Mark Twain, sarebbe un libro da
leggere!
ciao

 wrote in message
news:hf6krf$b9j$1...@newsreader2.mclink.it...

Several years ago I was working as a Designer in a high-tech company. There
were two Chinese engineers working there, and they often had questions about
American culture. One day I saw the two of them
going from cubicle to cubicle, asking the other engineers a question, but I
could see they weren't getting an answer. Finally, they came to my cubicle.
One of them said to me, "What do you Americans call this song?", and started
humming a few bars of music. I immediately recognized the music, and told
him that we called that song the "Internationale". The Chinese engineers
thanked me, and went on their way, but the designer in the next cubicle,
having overheard the conversation, said to me, "What the hell is the
Internationale?". I had to explain to him that it was the Socialist anthem,
written by a Frenchman, and sung in all countries of the world, and I'm sure
the Chinese engineers had sung it quite regularly at home.
Joe from Massachusetts

 of Pinocchio.
Tranquillo, � veramente orribile.
-- 
Anna

 wrote in message
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
It's not that I wanted to see it, it's just that I don't like the idea that
they won't let me see it.
Joe from Massachusetts

 sung it quite regularly at home.
I've read years ago that there was a social-democrat
representant elected in a New England state, or something like
that.
In the '30s socialism was more known even in the USA.
-- 
"We have good reason to believe he was stabbed.  There was a
sharp object sticking out of his chest".
                -- Lt. R. Travis, Newburgh, NY, Police Dept,

 that.
Probably James F. Carey, elected as a state representative in Massachusetts 
around the turn of the century.
-- 
Joe/Joey da New York
English as she is spoken (and sometimes written) in the US.
"English as She Is Spoke" is the common name of a 19th century book credited 
to Josï¿œ da Fonseca and Pedro Carolino, which was intended as a 
Portuguese-English conversational guide or phrase book, but is regarded as a 
classic source of unintentional humour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_As_She_Is_Spoke


Bernie Sanders, the current Senator from Vermont, identifies himself as a
Socialist, but he is listed as an "Independent". He is the first Senator
ever elected who called himself a Socialist.
Joe from Massachusetts


Mignini is going to have to convict Knox to make up for all the "monsters of
Florence" he mistakenly imprisoned, and in 7 or 8 years some judge who is
not afraid of this idiot prosecutor will throw out the conviction. I'm
surprised Mignini hasn't brought up Satanism to prove his case. Aren't
Italians aware of the transgressions of this moron? As I write, Mignini is
adding my name to his little black book, alongside the names of the
journalist Spezi and the American writer Douglas Preston, who was threatened
by Mignini and forced to leave Italy for uncovering his obsessive stupidity.
Joe from Massachusetts

 Socialist.
I think that he is the man I read about.
-- 
"I quite agree with you," said the Duchess; "and the moral of
that is -- `Be what you would seem to be' -- or, if you'd like
it put more simply -- `Never imagine yourself not to be
otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you
were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had
been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.'"
                -- Lewis Carrol, "Alice in Wonderland"

 Massachusetts around the turn of the century.
I had to googlesearch to see you meant the turn of last century
(20th), not this one (21st).
http://politicalgraveyard.com/bio/carey.html
-- 
In an East African newspaper:
"A new swimming pool is rapidly taking shape since the
contractors have thrown in the bulk of their workers."

 forced to leave Italy for uncovering his obsessive stupidity.
I don't like to read about that kind of trials, so I have no
clue about this case.
I only pointed to the different bias of the media, and that is
understandable considering their public.
BTW, how do reporters pronounce "Mignini"?
-- 
"Political language - and with variations this is true of all
political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists - is
designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable,
and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
                -- George Orwell


Mignotto.
Joe from Massachusetts
Joe from Massachusetts

 
Oops. Must remember that. (Man, I'm getting OLD!)


 
Perï¿œ a questo punto ï¿œ da chiedersi come mai gli Usa facciano ottima
ricerca, abbiano tra i migliori ospedali, istituti e importanti 
universitï¿œ che figurano tra i primi posti nelle classifiche 
internazionali (immagino non solo per il livello dei servizi); ed ï¿œ 
anche lecito chiedersi come un paese con quella che ï¿œ stata per molti 
anni una solida economia e abbia prodotto e produca tra la migliori 
culture al mondo possa basarsi su un'istruzione universitaria (ad avviso 
di alcuni) cosï¿œ scadente...

 di alcuni) cos� scadente...
The students attending American universities are products of an
under-performing secondary educational system.
If you look the position of the US in any statistical survey in the field of
secondary education, you will see that we rank nowhere near the top in
reading, mathematics, or science.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html
Even statistics compiled by US government researchers find �American
Education Not World Class�.
http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm
In one high-tech company where I recently worked, there were 3 Chinese
engineers, a Kurdish engineer, an Israeli engineer, and a Korean engineer,
out of a total of about 20 engineers. Some of them were hired because they
were outstanding in their field, while I'm sure others were hired because
they were willing to work for less money. The US scientific community
depends on foreign engineers and scientists, and the staffs of major
universities are full of foreign-born scientists and engineers.
http://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/1853/4885/1/lee_sooho_200412_phd.pdf
US education has become highly specialized, with a narrowness of focus. Why
should an engineer know anything about literature or history or
international affairs? Of what use is a foreign language?
In American High Schools, the primary requirement is that the potential
teacher know the mechanics of teaching. Knowledge of a field of study is
secondary. Einstein and Fermi wouldn't be allowed to teach in an American
High School.
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:pzDSm.57799$We2....@newsfe09.iad...

The emphasis on the mechanics of education applies only to public schools.
Private schools can hire teachers who are not certified teachers, if they
have outstanding knowledge of their specialty, and have university degrees
in that specialty.
Joe from Massachusetts

 to educate them.
No, lo scopo dell'universit� americana � di indebitarti fino al collo e, 
per mostrarti che i tuoi soldi sono ben spesi, illuderti che stai 
imparando molto perch� ti fanno sgobbare senza motivo ogni settimana.
Fortuna che fra due settimane finisce il semestre.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 or "Pe-ro�-ghee-a", with a hard g.
Ah. Io invece ho notato che la "g" nelle parole italiane viene 
pronunciate come la "j" francese, per chiss� quale motivo.
Es.
- parmigiano
- ghirardelli
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 trasformando le Uni italiane in quella robaccia l�.
Boh, eppure qua ci sono centinaia e centinaia di asiatici che pagano 
fior fior di quattrini ($30,000 all'anno di tasse universitarie) per 
studiare alla U of Illinois, College of Engineering. Non penso siano scemi.
D'altro canto un italiano che studia business mi dice che qua, pur 
essendo una delle scuole migliori anche per business, i corsi sono una 
gran cazzata, rispetto a ci� a cui � abituato lui alla Bocconi.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 in that specialty.
Anche in Italia nelle scuole private pu� insegnare anche chi non � 
abilitato.
Riguardo alla scuola superiore, mi ha colpito quello che mi ha detto un 
americano una settimana fa: lui e la sua classe nell'ultimo anno non ha 
fatto praticamente niente perch� tanto la media, che si basa su tutti i 
quattro anni, era pressoch� gi� decisa, lui era gi� stato accettato alla 
U of I, e non c'era motivo di impegnarsi. L'esame finale valeva solo 5% 
del voto di ogni materia. Altro che la maturit�!
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 gran cazzata, rispetto a ci� a cui � abituato lui alla Bocconi.
E pensa che io sento dire che pure i corsi alla Bocconi, nelle materie 
di diritto, sono una gran cazzata... Ma secondo me c'� anche invidia...

 (Man, I'm getting OLD!) 
I've heard it is a really common condition.
 
-- 
Humans usually aren't as good writing machine code as they are
at writing Fortran or C, because it is easy to make tiny
mistakes writing machine code.  When writing Fortran or C, it
is easy to make big mistakes.
                -- 
g77.info

 cosï¿œ scadente...
Importazione di talenti.
-- 
If one tells the truth, one is sure, sooner or later, to be
found out.
    -- Oscar Wilde, "Phrases and Philosophies for the Use
    of the Young"

 High School.
Not even in any Italian school or university.
Fermi indeed has been a very young professor in the 30's before
his emigration to the USA, but I am not sure he would be chosen
in today's universites.
-- 
"Value your freedom or you will lose it, teaches history. 'Don't
bother us with politics', respond those who don't want to
learn."
                -- Richard Stallman 

 lui alla Bocconi.
Effetto brand (etichetta, come nei vestiti firmati): conta pi�
dove hai studiato di cosa e come hai studiato.
-- 
Life would be tolerable but for its amusements.
    -- G.B. Shaw

mymo, 23:36, domenica 6 dicembre 2009:

Quelli della Bocconi mi paiono dei palloni gonfiati, ma
chiss�...
Penso che le facolt�, anzi gli insegnamenti migliori non siano
tutti nella stessa universit�, n� in Italia n� altrove.
-- 
"All formal dogmatic religions are fallacious and must never be
accepted by self-respecting persons as final."
                -- Hypatia of Alexandria 


"Figlio mio, lascia questo Paese"
(Pier Luigi Celli)
Joe from Massachusetts

 di diritto, sono una gran cazzata... Ma secondo me c'� anche invidia...
Boh, questo mio amico che studia qua (solo, ahim�!) questo semestre ha 
un fratello che ha studiato giurisprudenza sempre alla Bocconi e l'hanno 
preso subito alla Commissione Europea.   Poi, a differenze delle 
universit� pubbliche, o per lo meno della mia, i voti sono tutti 
"standardizzati" (nel senso della curva standard), che se qua da me � un 
  fatto positivo (si studia di meno), l� non lo � affatto, perch� c'� 
moltissima competizione.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 chiss�...
Confermo. Per�, come si dice, uno su mille ce la fa...
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 dove hai studiato di cosa e come hai studiato.
S� s�, per� intanto chi esce da qua viene preso, anche solo per una 
internship, da aziende che in Italia ce le sogniamo. Oppure anche in Borsa.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 (Pier Luigi Celli)
Dopo la laurea.
Anche ieri sul giornale locale c'era l'intervista a una giovane
ricercatrice biologa che lavora al Politecnico di Zurigo; ha
detto che i buoni laureati italiani sono molto ricercati
all'estero.
-- 
You see things; and you say "Why?"
But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    -- George Bernard Shaw, "Back to Methuselah"
    [No, it wasn't J.F. Kennedy.  Ed.]

Enrico il Pentolaio ha scritto:

Bisogna anche dire che le agezie di placing della universit� private 
(non solo Bocconi, ma anche Luiss) fanno un ottimo lavoro...

 (non solo Bocconi, ma anche Luiss) fanno un ottimo lavoro...
Eh, vorrei anche vedere che i 9,000 euro e passa all'anno non servissero 
a qualcosa.
;-)
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 wrote in
message news:hff546$s2a$2...@aioe.org...

I wonder if you have noticed how many American undergraduate students have
part-time jobs?
When I was at the university, most students had part-time jobs, many of them
in "minimum wage" jobs on the university campus. They worked in the dining
halls, in the university library, as security guards or receptionists in the
dormitories, and in every department of the university which did not require
experienced workers. Many other students worked part-time off-campus, in
jobs which usually paid a little better than minimum wage.
What percentage of Italian university students work while they are attending
the university, and how does this compare to the number of American students
who work while enrolled at the university?
It would also be interesting to know if you have observed how many students
there at UI receive financial aid, either through student loans or outright
grants, and how this compares with the situation in the Italian
universities.
Joe from Massachusetts

 grants
Non lo so, non me l'ha mai detto nessuno qua.
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.

 
In genere gli studenti che lavorano part time per l'universitï¿œ stessa 
sono impiegati per 150 ore diluite nell'arco di sei mesi (che ï¿œ la 
durata del contratto) e ricevono circa 1000 euro. L'accesso avviene 
tramite concorso.

 tramite concorso.
Qui di solito lavorano al massimo venti ore alla settimana, e ricevano il
"minimum wage", che varia da uno stato all'altro.
Joe from Massachusetts