Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: pronuncia latino scientifico

Su questo argomento, e sulle divergenze di pronuncia del latino tra
inglese e italiano, ci si potrebbero versare fiumi di megabites senza,
temo, venirne a capo. Tuttavia ho un dubbio specifico e spero che
qualcuno, qui, possa aiutarmi a venirne a capo.
"Corpus luteum" e' una definizione medica che usa due parole latine. Le
regole del latino classico vogliono che l'accento della parola luteum
cada sulla prima u, lu'teum, che e' lunga, mentre la e e' breve.
Alcuni inglesi ho sentito invece che pronunciano lute'um, con l'accento
sulla e, che diventa lunga: "luteeum" (lu-'te--?m, come conferma 
answers.com
).
Ora, ieri un'inglese mi ha chiesto: ma come si pronuncia?
Bho? giro a voi la domanda.
Se si pronincia "luteeum", mi chiedo solo perche' l'inglese cambia le
regole di pronuncia arbitrariamente.
Ladybat

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You should only *hear* how American priests mauled Latin when it was spoken 
at Mass. (I know that's not medical Latin, but that was the first thing that 
came to mind.)
I worked in hospitals for 15 years and medical terminology was one of the 
first things I had to learn, way back then.
I can safely say the "rules of proper pronunciation" in Latin do *not* apply 
in the medical field in the US. (Or in the church.)
However, you should know that in my own dictionary, the accent is on the 
first syllable, as you would expect.
Murrcans are (you already know this) FAMOUS for bastardizing foreign 
language, among which English figures prominently :-) But then, we've already 
had this conversation.
-- 
Joey DoWop Dee
Remember: It is To Laugh

 spoken at Mass.
you use a present tense first and then a past. Is this consecutio
temporum (;-P) common in the English language?
Thanks
Ladybat

 regole di pronuncia arbitrariamente.
Perché "arbitrariamente"? È la loro lingua e possono ben pronunciarla
come gli pare, specie se parliamo di parole tratte da lingue antiche:
dubito che qualche antico romano uscirà dalla tomba per lamentarsi.
--
Cingar

 "lu'teum", what's the correct pronunciations then?'
How do you pronounce "computer" when you speak Italian? ;-)

 dubito che qualche antico romano uscirà dalla tomba per lamentarsi.
Neanche qualche romano meno antico! :-)

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il problema non e' chi ha ragione, il problema e' stabilire uno standard
onde potersi capire, che poi e' la finalita' di qualunque linguaggio.
A me sembra che nella lingua inglese non ci sia uno standard di
pronuncia per molte parole prese a prestito da altre lingue, come in
questo caso. e cio' genera confusione.
Se e' pur vero che noi pronunciamo computer con la pronuncia inglese, e'
anche vero che lo facciamo _sempre_.
Se invece esistono due fonetiche, come si direbbe essere il caso per la
parola luteum e di tantissimi altri vocaboli latini (tacero' per amor di
brevita' le 5-6 diverse dizioni del nome del batterio /Escherichia
coli/) allora si produce confusione in chi ascolta, e spesso anche in
chi parla.
Se il latino e' una lingua con delle regole fonetiche gia'
preconfezionate, penso che sia piu' facile informarsi sulle sue regole
di pronuncia e aderire a quelle anziche farne ex-novo in base all'umore
di chi parla. Giusto per capirsi. La prima volta che qualcuno mi disse
"Iscirisciae colai" io risposi difatto: "eh?"
E' per quello che chiedevo se qualcuno fosse al corrente di uno standard
per "luteum", non di certo per difendere cicerone.

 temporum (;-P) common in the English language?
Correct in this context for two reasons:
One: because I don't go to church any more, so I no longer hear them.
Two: The mass is generally said in English these days.
And Three: (surprise! There's a third, that I just thought of.) I used a 
localism in "You should only XXXXXX", which is kind of New York/Jewishese, 
and which I've never heard in the past tense.
"You should only have heard how priests..." I guess it could work. No one 
would misunderstand, but it's not usual.
Seems the more I post here, the more I learn about my own language.
Go know!
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LOL!
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I have always wondered why foreign words get so mutilated in other languages.
Why do we say "Rome" and not "Roma"? What is so hard about saying Roma?
Moscow. MOSCOW?? In Russian musk-VA; also not so hard to say.
Paris? Paree? Parigi?
As for alternate pronunciations causing confusion, I doubt that the confusion 
exists in medical circles in the case you cited (luteum), but in a classroom 
of Latin I would expect you to insist on the correct pronunciation based on 
the rules.
When words get adopted, do they mutate according to the rules of the 
receiving language? Do they then adopt rules of accent as well?
I would venture a guess that an Italian's pronunciation of Latin is far 
better than an English-speaker's, other than in the case of someone who is 
classically trained.
Some of my dilemmas:
NOT saying "chaise longue" but "chaise lounge", which is common.
Not saying "The spaghetti are ready" but "The spaghetti *is* ready."
"I'll have a panini and then a cannoli, thank you."
"A zucchini."
Amen.
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 Seems the more I post here, the more I learn about my own language.
And it's for free! :-)

 per "luteum", non di certo per difendere cicerone.
BTW, se Cicerone tornasse in vita dubito che si riconoscerebbe nella
pronuncia italiana del suo nome.
--
Cingar

 classically trained.
It depends which one of the many existing pronunciation standards you
consider to be the "correct" Latin pronunciation.
--
Cingar


I would bet that if you were to walk down to 34th St. and Lexington Avenue
you would hear a Latin Mass every day.  ;>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 Noi pronunciamo "computer" con la pronuncia inglese!? E quando mai?
Infatti. Ho tirato in ballo la pronuncia di 'computer' in italiano proprio
per far notare che non rispettiamo fedelmente l'originale, ma lo adattiamo
ai suoni della nostra lingua. :)

 "Roma" (which in English is the plural of "Rom", meaning "Gypsies")
Rom/Roma is Sanskrit, not English.
Joe from Massachusetts

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If not the mass, at least some Latin conjugation:
flagello, flagellare...
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 "Iscirisciae colai" io risposi difatto: "eh?"
Qui la rimbembranza sarebbe stata più difficile. 

 wrote in message
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It is an English word of Romany (not Sanskrit) origin.
--
Cingar

 but "Rome", a loanword from French?
Oh Good Grief, another epiphany. I hate it when that happens, and I realize 
something I should have known all along. Makes me feel stoop... stoup--- 
stuup---- dumb! Learning is a bit*h.
NOW what will I gripe about?  :-)
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Allora devi aver dimenticato un "non" da qualche parte. :-)
--
Cingar

 Allora devi aver dimenticato un "non" da qualche parte. :-)
Dove?

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Faccio notare tuttavia che la pronuncia, seppur con le varianti
regionali intrinseche della lingua italiana (e di qualunque altra
lingua), rimane costante, e l'accento anche.
Ma del resto computer e' una parola di origine latina e neanche gli
anglofoni ne alterano dizione o accento.
La tragedia viene apparentemente solo per quelle parole di uso non
comune, come i termini scientifici o ecclesiastici, non entrati a far
parte della lingua di tutti i giorni e quindi di pronuncia incerta _per
chi non conosce il latino_

 
questi sono problemi suoi. io voglio solo capire ed essere capita...

 chi non conosce il latino_
Una parola può non essere di uso comune in generale, ma può essere comune
in un certo ambito. 
Immagino che per un medico "corpus luteum" sia un'espressione comune, e che
la pronuncia da preferire sarà quella comunemente utilizzata nel suo
ambiente.
Secondo il Merriam-Webster online (americano), la "e" di "luteum" non è
accentata ma ha la pronuncia "lunga", come il suono iniziale di "easy".
corpus lu·te·um 
Pronunciation: -'lü-tE-&m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural corpora lu·tea  /-tE-&/
Etymology: New Latin, literally, yellowish body
: a yellowish mass of progesterone-secreting endocrine tissue that forms
: immediately after ovulation from the ruptured graafian follicle in the
: mammalian ovary 
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=corpus+luteum

 wrote in message
news:1173781762.1...@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
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I still say it's Sanskrit, and there are several sources which suggest this
etymology. And the Romani word for non-Rom, "gadjo", also appears to be of
Sanskrit origin.
And spaghetti is Italian,. even though we use the word in English.
In ordinary English conversation, Rom, Roma, and Romany are used
interchangeably to describe "gypsies" and their language. Specialists will
quibble about which word should be used to describe the people, and which
word should be used to describe the language. It is far more common to hear
"gypsy" than any of the other words to describe the Rom people or the Romani
language.
From what I have read, in Italian Rom is used in the same way. Romani as a
description of the language doesn't seem to be common in Italian, except
among linguists, possibly to avoid confusion with the inhabitants of the
capital city.
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:uSAJh.328892$IL1....@newsfe13.lga...
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The languages spoken in the charming Romanian film "Gadjo Dilo" (a film
about a Parisian who finds himself among the Rom), whose title in the Romani
language means "Crazy Outsider", are French, Romanian and Romani.
Joe from Massachusetts

 Joe from Massachusetts
Thanks for the referral. Netflix has it and it's now in my queue!
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 capital city.
In italian it's spelled "romaně", with an accented I, so no confusion with
"romani" is possible. However, it's true that most peole don't know this
term (or even the very existance of this language, that by the way is
almost extinct in the Italian Roma communities).
--
Cingar
-- 
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http://www.newsland.it/news
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ab...@newsland.it

 Dove?
Che ne so?
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 Not that the substance changes depending on how we call it, anyway...
Well, think of the word "panini".
The *English* word "panini", borrowed from Italian, only means a sandwich.
The *Italian* word panino/panini has two possible meanings: 1. panino
imbottito, formato da un piccolo pane aperto in due oppure da due fette di
pane, riempiti di formaggio, prosciutto o altro;
2. piccolo pane, anche vuoto, per esempio una rosetta o michetta.

 inglese is dumbing down le ultime generazioni).
"bacterium"? non "bug"?

 inglese is dumbing down le ultime generazioni).
You prove that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." :-)
That's probably why it's always called "e. coli" (CO-lai) here. I don't think 
most people outside of the professions know or care what the "e." stands for.
But, to the point: isn't that how it usually is? For example, I know that 
within some circles if I say something like
   "The criteria are the following " or
   "The contributing phenomena are..." or
   "It was short-lived" (pronouncing "lived" as "livd", i.e., short-I,
    not "laivd", long-I) they'll think I'm using incorrect grammar.
Usually I "go for it" anyway, and speak correctly. But not always. If I want 
the "guys on the job" to understand me, I'll likely say "The criteria is", 
"phenomena is," and "short livd" (short-I).
It's a matter of being understood vs being right.
In your case, with your examples, it seems even more complex, due both to the 
terminology and the venue.
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 wrote in message
news:et6pur$eu9$1...@news.newsland.it...
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Googling "la lingua rom" I find several hundred references to Italian
sources. Almost as popular is "la lingua dei rom".
Joe from Massachusetts

 
my student tonight corrected me: plasmodesma'ta (with a long second a)
and not plasmode'smata (with the a short), as I though :(
this thing is driving me crazy...

 
For this native English speaker, phenomena, automata, criteria etc.
are all obviously plurals. "data" is a good example of something that
has become a singular for most purposes: almost no-one would say "the 
data are.."

 data are.."
I did not mean to offend anyone, apologies if that sentence sounded rude.
Actually, when I wrote: "native English speakers" I was intending "my
pupils".


I saw it on SHO or HBO when it first came out, and I thought I had taped it,
but I hadn't, so I just went on line and ordered it from the Public Library.
That director also has several other films dealing with the Rom, which I
think I'll also have to check out. Fortunately, I still have an antique VCR
which allows me to "archive" items such as this.
Another multi-cultural film which I found very interesting was the Russian
film, "Urga" ("Lasso", in Russian), aka "Close to Eden" in the US. The film
takes place mostly in Mongolia, and involves a Mongol sheepherder and his
family who take in a Russian truck driver when his truck breaks down on the
way to China. The "lasso" refers to the long pole with a loop at the end
which the herdsman uses to capture the sheep, but it also serves as a
request for privacy when stuck into the ground as a sort of flag. What
activity requires privacy out on the grassy steppe, you may ask? :>)
The languages are Mongolian, Russian, and Mandarin, with English subtitles,
in the US release.
Joe from Massachusetts


That is how we pronounce it
See also gluteus (glùe-tee-us),  as in "gluteus maximus", which in the
plural are sometimes known as "glutes".  :>)
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/gluteus?view=uk
Joe from Massachusetts

 chi non conosce il latino_
La difficoltà ce l'ha anche (o forse soprattutto?) chi conosce il
latino, in quanto spesso la pronuncia standard di una certa lingua non
corrisponde a quella latina. Pensa per esempio al nome "Julius
Caesar": ben difficilmente un latinista che non conosca l'inglese
riuscirebbe a immaginarne la corretta pronuncia inglese!
--
Cingar

 ma le altre due sono comunissime. 
La seconda la si sente da qualche giornalista televisivo che vuol dar
mostra di orecchiare l'inglese. 
La terza č quella usata dalla maggior parte degli italiani, IMHO, almeno
attualmente... in futuro non so, le pronunce che si sentono in tivł possono
influenzare chi le ascolta.

 riuscirebbe a immaginarne la corretta pronuncia inglese!
E la corretta pronuncia latina? "Ci" dolce o kappa?

 questi sono problemi suoi. io voglio solo capire ed essere capita...
Giusto. Ma se ti ostini a usare la pronuncia dei preti parlando con i
biologi, ti capiranno solo i biologi vaticani. :-)
--
Cingar

 Come piazza Càvur a Napoli? :-)
Sì, e come Viale Jenner ("iènner"), sempre a Milano.
--
Cingar

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And my queue gets even longer... :-)
Uh-oh: Netflix doesn't have it. I'll try NYPL.
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 this thing is driving me crazy...
"Hmm, when the student surpasses the teacher..."
Have you thought about raising goats for a living?
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 wrote in message
news:0001HW.C21D7E0D...@news.verizon.net...
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I tried the two-week Netflix free demo, and there was a Fellini film they
didn't have, but I was able to get it through the publilc library system. It
was either "Notte di Cabiria" or "Giulietta degli Spiriti". In any event, I
was surprised they didn't have it at Netflix.
Speaking of libraries, I see that most, if not all, of the NYPL branches
have free wireless internet access now. And the city seems to be wiring (or
wirelessing) up all the parks. You guys got it made!
Joe from Massachusetts

 
Well Netflix definitely has "Le Notti di Cabiria", as I've rented it several 
times. I'm scrounging around for an inexpensive copy to buy, actually, 
because it's one of my all-time favorites. They also have "Giulietta." Maybe 
they didn't have either when you tried them. I find their collection has 
gotten quite extensive and their turn-around time is superb! My local 
facility is in Queens, and I literally get one-day response.
As you probably know, I'm near Bryant Park, and they were among the first of 
the parks to set up wireless... now a lot of them have it. It's really great 
in the warm weather. I'm told (but I don't know from experience) that even 
some places that used to charge for wireless access aren't charging any 
more.(Barnes & Noble, for one.)
All this is great, of course, but NO FRIED CLAMS! Humbug! I have to rely on 
my quarterly trips to RI for those, although rumor has it that Nathan's does 
fried clams. (I just actually typo'd "Friend clams"... :-)
I do hope all this English-language posting is okay. It should be! I find I 
can read and comprehend Italian just fine, but trying to compose in it is 
harder than ever. The old gray matter, she ain't what she used to be!
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This is in fact what I do as a teacher :-)
I'll have a thought on your suggestion, anyway. A frontal lobotomy, a
hut and a couple of friendly, cuddling goats. My life would be so much
easier...

 
ti sfugge il fatto che non mi ostino a fare nulla. e' una cosa che ti
sei messo in testa tu, che mi pare stia cercando di fare opera
missionaria di insegnarmi il latino. come ti ho gia' detto, io mi adatto
in base all'interlocutore. Mi e' stata chiesta la pronuncia di una
parola e ho girato qui la domanda, tutto qui.
ladybat

 harder than ever. The old gray matter, she ain't what she used to be!
Sure it is! This place would be nothing without native-speakers... 

 Queens stia lontano da Bryant Park).
Not so hard to understand: Netflix is based in California, but in order to be 
efficient enough to be of value, they have local (or regional, I suppose) 
distribution centers. All transactions are processed via snail mail. I don't 
know for certain where my DVDs come from, but the return address on the 
envelope is the Queens facility.
All transactions are pre-paid (no stamp necessary.) As long as I post my 
return DVD by 1 PM, it arrives at the Queens facility the next day, and I get 
a confirmation e-mail to that effect: "We've received XXYYZZ movie." Later 
the same day I get an e-mail update announcing the next DVD to arrive, and it 
comes within a day of that. It might not be so efficient in other 
geographical locations.
Queens is across the East River from Manhattan. I live on East 36th Street 
and the Post Office is on 34th. The Midtown Tunnel (directly to Queens) is at 
the end of my street, three blocks away. I guess all those factors contribute 
to the expediency at work here.
Bryant Park is located in Midtown South, 42nd Street and Sixth Avenue, just 
behind the main branch of the New York Public Library. A six-minute walk from 
my apartment.
There's a chance I may be moving down the hall, to a larger apartment. It's 
closer to the elevator. In that case, a walk to Bryant Park will only take 
5.75 minutes. :-)
Is all that TMI???
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And you'll probably have a better view of "Headquarters".  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 Is all that TMI???
Oh no, don't worry about that. I now know who is going to get me a non-alcoholic 
drink if I'm penniless in NYC someday. :-)

 Joe from Massachusetts
Well, it will still be out of view from my windows, but I will be slightly 
closer. Not that that will help me sleep better at night.
I do see some "very interesting" people going to and coming from that 
buidling.
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You can count on it!
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 parola e ho girato qui la domanda, tutto qui.
E pensavo di averti ormai più che esaurientemente risposto! La
risposta è, sostanzialmente: come cavolo ti pare. La "pronuncia
standard" del latino non esiste.
--
Cingar