Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Hou tu pranownse Inglish

Hou tu pranownse Inglish
http://www.zompist.com/spell.html
| Whenever the subject comes up, someone is sure to bring up all the
| words in -ough, or George Bernard Shaw's ghoti-- a word which
| illustrates only Shaw's wiseacre ignorance. English spelling may be
| a nightmare, but it does have rules, and by those rules, ghoti can
| only be pronounced like goatee. 
|
| The purpose of this page is to describe those rules-- to explain the
| system behind English spelling, the rules that tell you how to
| pronounce a written word correctly over 85% of the time.
che ne pensate della pagina da cui ho riportato alcune righe
dell'introduzione?
Fermo restando che l'ascolto e l'imitazione della lingua parlata
restano fondamentali, puo` essere una lettura che chiarisce le idee?
O le confonde ulteriormente? :)
 
-- 
(T)EFL online communities
http://groups.msn.com/TEFL


'Opinionated nonsense,' would be my immediate reaction to this extract
,'which illustrates the writer's wiseacre ignorance rather than Shaw's .'
As you (but maybe not all the ng readers) will know , Shaw proposed a
radical reform of English spelling ; I don't know what the reference to his
'ghoti' is , but I do know the English word 'dhoti' ; since that is not
pronounced at all like 'goatee' (it has a short instead of a long final
vowel , and the stress is on the first not the second syllable) it is
difficult to imagine a rule which could have 'ghoti' rhyming with 'goatee' ,
and yet not include 'dhoti' within its scope . Of course , if anyone can
come up with 9 words like 'dhoti' or 'ghoti' which DO sound like 'goatee' ,
then I'll concede on the 85%.
Still , a glance at the site for which you provide the link shows that the
author has maybe just made an unfortunate miscalculation in these
introductory words (Shaw was neither ignorant nor stupid), and actually has
a point - he's arguing that the spelling-pronunciation link in English is
not as chaotic as many (both foreigners and native speakers) imagine . Given
the number of rules (together with exceptions) he proposes , the percentage
accuracy achieved , the number of situations where he can't come up with a
rule , and the additional problem of stress , I can't see that what he
offers would be of much use to many learners ; but I do think it would be a
worthwhile read for anyone who already has a good basis in the language ,
because the writer does indeed show that for spellings whose pronunciation
may seem simply random at first some guidelines can be formulated which
clarify the options and reasonably often dictate the right one . I can't say
, of course , how far the already accomplished learner of English might
intuitively arrive at the right result anyway , but I think explicit
statement of these 'rules' can only be useful . If I were to teach English
to such learners , I think I would probably make use of some of his ideas .
Mike

 I don't know what the reference to his 'ghoti' is 
I didn't know it was invented by Shaw, but I do know what how "ghoti" is
pronounced:
"gh" as in "enough"
"o" as in "women"
"ti" as in "nation"
that is... "fish". This should prove how English pronunciation can be
unpredictable. 
But then, I agree with you. When I read a word I've never seen, I'll almost
always guess the right pronunciation, because there aren't "rules", in my
opinion (or rather, it doesn't seem worthwhile to me to conceive rules),
but there are patterns (es. "right" ==> like "might", "fight", "light",
"sight", "night", etc.)
On the other hand, I think it's vvery difficult to pronounce English like a
native speaker. It takes *years*.
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 but I do know what how "ghoti" is pronounced
"What" è apparso contro la mia volontà.
Ciao, FB


 unpredictable.
Ah! Thanks .So Shaw was being journalistic rather than scholarly here . It's
a pity for the writer we're discussing that the only analogous word that I
know that actually exists ('dhoti') isn't pronounced as he confidently
asserts  it should be according to his rules . However , I have some
sympathy with him - for example , it is as he says a rule that initial 'gh'
is always pronounced 'g' , etc. (as Shaw knew , of course) .Shaw's polemics
are aimed at making English spelling appear more confusing than it is ,
whereas our writer is saying there are rules which make it a good deal less
confusing than it appears ; and he's right .
I'm interested though to hear that you do in fact work effectively by
intuition based on experience , rather than reference to 'rules' ; the
languages that we English most often learn are much more regular , of course
, so we don't meet that difficulty (we know more or less always what the
sounds should be - but most of us are physically incapable of making them
properly !) .
Mike

 properly !) .
But for it's the other way round, isn't it?
Native English pupils know the right pronunciation but make mistakes
in spelling, don't they? 


 properly !) .
But, for you it's the other way round, isn't it?
Native English pupils know the right pronunciation but make mistakes
in spelling, don't they? 
-- 


in spelling, don't they? 
Spelling mistakes are common, yes. "spelling tests" were a regular
part of school life for me from... as early as I can remember, really.
I'm told that spelling tests either don't exist in Italy or are much
less common.
As for pronunciation, there are any number of place names and surnames
that I would prononce incorrectly or have no idea how to pronounce,
but these are something of a special case. Also, there are quite a few
words I've probably (almost) only ever seen in writing, like "dais". I
suspect most native English speakers would make at least one mistake,
or have to pause and think at least once, when reading "Dearest Creature
in Creation" aloud.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
It is a sobering thought, for example, that when Mozart was my age, he had
been dead for two years. (T. Lehrer)

 words I've probably (almost) only ever seen in writing, like "dais". I
Hmmm... According to Zanichelli, it should be pronounced /deɪɪs/
[Unicode Message / Messaggio Unicode]


 less common.
"Dettati" are common here in Italy. Usually the teacher likes to put in
difficult words ("soqquadro", "acquario", "campagna" *, "innocuo" etc.).
* A child may write it "campania".
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

 native speaker. It takes *years*.
Being the language geek that I am, when I was in high school I became a 
fan of the Shavian alphabet, which came about as a result of Shaw's 
efforts to reform English spelling. (I surmise in his opinion a whole new 
alphabet was needed.)
I found a copy of the only book -- to my knowledge, anyway -- ever 
published in the Shavian alphabet, "Androcles and the Lion," which I 
treasured. I learned the alphabet, wrote in it, and convinced another 
friend to learn it so we could commmunicate "in secret." It was great 
fun, but it never went beyond a curiosity.
For those interested:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shavian.htm
-- 
I am Joey's Cat
Un-not my address, too, if you wanna reply.

 
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shavian.htm
48 letters?! Life's too short...
