Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Can we can may?

Can we can "may"?
If we ban "may" from spoken English in favor of "can", what should we 
replace "may not" with? "might not"?
For instance,
   They may not have arrived yet.
is different from
   They cannot have arrived yet.
 
-- 
Kiuhnm
 
The first time I took an elevator it was a great
experience, but the second time it was a letdown.

    They cannot have arrived yet.
 
Are you messing around with the English language? I don't see you 
proposing that we replace "riesce a" with "può."
 
Once upon a time grammarians policed differences regarding the use of 
"can" for ability and "may" for permission and possibility (as well as 
ability) but widespread indiscriminate use of "can" has overwhelmed into 
submission all but the most insistent of those persnickety experts.
 
I think you probably already know this but are playing with the 
supposition to occupy your restless mind. I'd play along if I could 
offer something useful or amusing.


I'll be more specific then: can I use "may" in informal speech if I use 
it to express improbability? Or might it still be perceived as too formal?



Well, I'd say to express possibility, not improbability, but yes. People 
still use "may," and some strive to use it with more traditional 
distinctions in mind. It is not correct to say that "may" is strictly 
formal usage. It is only more formal relative to the use of "can" 
relative to expressing permission.
 
"May" is specifically used to express possibility because the use of 
"can" does not stretch as easily into that connotation. "May" has not 
been used to express ability in my memory, although I've read that 
historically it held that distinction before "can" entered into common 
usage for that meaning.
 
I find no difficulty understanding what I wrote, but my description may 
have been a bit indistinct, so feel free to ask follow-up questions if 
you have doubts.

 you have doubts.
 
That's more or less what I thought, but I needed a confirmation. I was 
writing some programming code and found myself using "may" in one of my 
comments. I tried to replace it with "can" because I didn't want to 
sound to formal, but I realized I couldn't convey the same meaning that 
way, ... and "might" felt a little to "strong". I kept "may", but I 
asked to make sure!


 way, ... and "might" felt a little to "strong". I kept "may", but I 
 
too "strong"... wth!


 too "strong"... wth!
 
Can we can the can can in a thin tin can? Suppongo sia: Possiamo 
inscatolare il can can in un barattolo di latta sottile?
 
Can come verbo (non modale) esiste sul Collins che però aggiunge 
"usually passive": infatti di solito si legge canned meat, canned coke e 
via dicendo- La frase sopra secondo voi è possibile è è semplicemente un 
pun?
 
 
-- 
Et interrogabant eum turbae dicentes: “Quid ergo faciemus?”.
Respondens autem dicebat illis: “Qui habet duas tunicas,
det non habenti; et, qui habet escas, similiter faciat”.
(Ev. sec. Lucam 3,10-11)
 
-- 
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com
 
 

 pun?
 
"Usually" does't mean "always", does it?
My "can", by the way, meant "fired" as in "made redundant".


 My "can", by the way, meant "fired" as in "made redundant".
 
To be precise, "fire", "make redundant".


 surface but it sounds fine to me.
 
Not fine. You should use "either/or."
 
Why can't I find it either with Google or Bing?
Why can I find it neither with Google nor Bing?


I must've picked it up somewhere. Sometimes I'm forced to read documents 
written by non native speakers and this hurts my English, unfortunately.
So, I should always avoid double negatives, without exceptions.


 
You might hear a double negative spoken by a native speaker, but it is a 
clear marker for poor grammar.

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BTW, I keep seeing "if I would... I would..." more and more often. I 
think English is losing that battle.


 "might" felt a little to "strong". I kept "may", but I asked to make sure!
 
Alla domanda iniziale generica si potrebbe rispondere con 
un'enciclopedia che però potrebbe essere poco utile nel caso specifico. 
Molto meglio, secondo me, indicare subito qual è la frase che arrovella 
e in quale contesto la si vuol usare.
Se l'ambito di utilizzo è quello dei commenti all'interno di un 
programma informatico, credo che sia buona regola aderire alle prassi 
del settore e soprattutto fare in modo che il significato sia univoco e 
non fraintendibile. Se esiste il rischio di equivoci potresti forse 
premettere una guida in cui spieghi in che senso hai usato "may" e 
"can" nei commenti.
 
-- 
IdP
 
 
"Certo, certissimo, anzi probabile." (Ennio Flaiano)


I'm not sure what you mean.
 
Do you mean would/would instead of would/could?
 
"If I would only wake up earlier, I would see the sun rise"
as opposed to
"If I would only wake up earlier, I could see the sun rise."

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No, I'm talking about replacing the subjunctive with the conditional:
   If I would know it, I wouldn't ask
   If I would've known, I wouldn't have done that.


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Damn, that's nasty. What kind of people do you hang out with?
 
What comes naturally to me is:
If I knew it, I wouldn't ask
If I had known, I wouldn't have done that.
 
I'm probably only aware that I'm using the subjunctive with "to be."

 I'm probably only aware that I'm using the subjunctive with "to be."
 
I came across an interesting case:
1. If that would change her mind, I'd pay her.
2. If that changed her mind, I'd pay her.
 
Here's my analysis:
1. The word "that" refers to "paying her": first you pay her and that 
changes her mind.
2. The word "that" refers to something other than "paying her". First 
she changes her mind (because of that "that") and then you pay her.
 
-- 
Kiuhnm
 
False friend del giorno: "to make redundant".
Non significa dare lavoro ad amici e familiari inserendoli
in ogni buco, bensì "licenziare".
 

 I'm probably only aware that I'm using the subjunctive with "to be."
 
-- 
IdP
 
 
"Chi ha il lupo per compare, porti il cane sotto il mantello." 
(Proverbio toscano)