Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Pronunciation - z/s

I've noticed that many Americans (even British?) pronounce 's' instead 
of 'z'. For instance, many say eye[s] instead of eye[z]. However they 
pronounce "eyes" correctly when the 's' sound is linked to another word 
(e.g. "My eye[z]on you"). What is your experience on this matter?
Kiuhnm

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Hmmm... I don't share your experience. 
Let's see: cat[s], dog[z], rooster[z], house[z] (or houze[z]), flow[z], 
goe[z], eye[z], ear[z], noses[z] ("noze[z]"), mouth[s] (or mouth[z]),
pimp[s], coop[s], droop[s], sag[z].
It seems to me that all the examples above with [z] are only pronounced with 
[z], whereas some of those with [s] could also be pronounced with [z], if 
there is elision of "is" and a vowel follows.
The cat[s] are hungry.
The cat[z] in the kitchen. (cat is in)
The cat[s] not in the kitchen. (cat's not in)
So although the "cats" may or may not have [z],
The Eyes Have It!*
*Google that, if you're unfamiliar.
-- 
Disclaimer:
My goal in posting here is to provide readers with
acceptable, viable, correct examples of how an
American speaks day-to-day English; how to sound
like an average person, not a great work of literature
or someone who speaks like a grammar book. jdwd

 Hmmm... I don't share your experience. 
Ok, one of these days I'll provide some evidence to back up my claim.
Kiuhnm


While we have you here, can you clarify the most common forms of italian
"zetacismo"?  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 "zetacismo"?  :>)
No, I cannot!
Kiuhnm

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Can *ANYONE!??!?*
I'll give you a dollar... Ok, a Euro! Okay, Ten euros.
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 "zetacismo"?  :>)
Che vo' di'?
:-/
Tschau,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
Five by five.

 "zetacismo"?  :>)
Do you mean this?
http://www.demauroparavia.it/129434
"pronuncia difettosa dei suoni |ts| e |dz|"

 'z'. For instance, many say eye[s] instead of eye[z].
Sicuro di non aver sentito semplicemente una "zeta" pronunciata calando la 
voce, tanto da sembrare "esse"?
Prova a dire "eyes" dicendo forte  la prima "e" e poi diminuendo l'intensità 
della voce.
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 la voce, tanto da sembrare "esse"?
If you're speaking English and a Japanese thinks you're speaking 
Japanese then maybe you're just speaking Japanese!
Do you know "Pronunciation Power"? It's a well known software. The 
pronunciation feels "real" and the speaker speaks quite fast, but every 
'z' is clearly audible. I can't say the same of many American actors.
Kiuhnm

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You are almost (but not quite) right.
In English voiced consonants (like for ex. /z/, /v/, /d/ ...) at the end of 
a phrase are devoiced (when you devoice a consonant you don't vibrate your 
vocal folds, but the position of the toungue in the mouth is the same as for 
the ordinary "voiced" sound. You can put your finger on your Adam's apple to 
feel the vibrations). In practice this means that the consonants become very 
similar to the corresponding "voiceless" ones (/s/, /f/, /t/ ... for the 
ones in the example).
In fact, this doesn't happen only in phrase-final position but also when the 
consonant is followed by a voiceless consonant: for example "the dog's food" 
may be written phonematically as /D@dOgzfu:d/ but phonetically the /z/ is 
devoiced (it would be written as a "z" with a small unside-down circumflex 
at the bottom) and sounds almost as a /s/.
This is the theory as it is explaned in textbooks, and my ears tend to agree 
with this description.
Lorenzo

 "zetacismo"?  :>)
Una buona domanda da postare su it.cultura.linguistica.italiano.
Direi che nelle regioni settentrionali (Triveneto, Emilia Romagna,
Lombardia) la Z da parecchi problemi (e nelle altre magari da problemi la
S..)
D'altra parte, non sono in tanti in Italia a parlare un italiano
ragionevolmente standard.
ciao
Weiss
-- 
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 Lombardia) la Z da parecchi problemi 
Oddio, quali problemi dovrei avere?
:-)
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 :-)
heheh...beh problemi nel senso che magari in quelle regioni hanno tante Z
(ho trovato sette Z per il dialetto veneto, che poi si riflette
nell'italiano) ma magari nessuna "corretta".
Sei di Forli' se non sbaglio (spero di non confonderti con l'Enrico C.)
Di solito in Romagna le S non sono propriamente toscane (per trascriverle
adeguatamente bisognerebbe forse farlo alla tedesca, poi magari qualcuno
pronuncia "sciare" quasi senza sc: siare)
:-)
.. e le Z magari son un filino troppo dolci...
Poi qualche inesattezza sulle E e sulle O (aperte o chiuse, a caso).
Concordi?
(oh, magari tu parli come un doppiatore, ma spero di aver reso l'idea, si
generalizza naturalmente e si scherza sugli stereotipi)
:-)
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Ogni volta che cavo via la pignata da'l fogo mi ricordo che xe difarense
insormontabli fra di noi.   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:QnqXh.16$ZD...@newsfe01.lga...
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Ghe sboro, mi son desmentegà del ghe, d*%can!.
"che ghe xe difarense".  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 generalizza naturalmente e si scherza sugli stereotipi)
Fate vobis.
:-))
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 romagnolo.... o almeno credo.
Grassie della spiegassioni!
Ma chissà perché si dice "zeta romagnola"! 
;-)
-- 
"And the whole Earth was of one language, and of one speech". 
(Genesis 11,1)

 Ma chissà perché si dice "zeta romagnola"!
Ma 'ndò? Ve' che schotto la Romagna non è mica più Italia!
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 with this description.
Thank you for this very informative post.
Kiuhnm

 S..)
Uhm...vediamo: Zuàn zujuzze cul zès zaal...no, direi proprio che in 
Friuli non abbiamo problemi con la zeta :-)
In Veneto sì, è vero.
Parlando per mia esperienza di insegnante: lo zetacismo è una dislalia 
piuttosto rara, certamente meno comune del rotacismo (difficoltà a 
pronunciare la R)  e del sigmatismo (pronuncia della S). Il bambino, 
semplicemente, non riesce a pronunciare la zeta perchè non sa 
posizionare correttamente la lingua sul palato. Non mi dilungo sulle 
cause. E' una cosa che generalmente si risolve con poche sedute di 
logopedia.
Tabhall

 «Per una di quesc-te sc-tradizzole, tornava bel bello dalla
That's nothing more than myth! :-)
I live in Emilia Romagna and I don't put 'c' were they are not supposed 
to be. It's true, my "s"-es are deeper than the standard ones and my 
vowels too open or too closed, but that's all :-)
By the way, the "z" in "zucchero" is very often mispronounced. It should 
be plosive as in "think".
Kiuhnm

 be plosive as in "think".
Not plosive, but fricative.
Kiuhnm

 too open or too closed, but that's all :-)
Ma anche la z invece della c è una distorsione che sinceramente non ho mai 
notato in nessuno. Non diremo delle "c" "corpose", ma nemmeno delle "z". :-P
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 notato in nessuno. Non diremo delle "c" "corpose", ma nemmeno delle "z". :-P
Niente "z" al posto delle "C" anche se qualche calata emiliana (non
romagnola!) ha "c" abbastanza "dolci".
Sempre a proposito delle "deep s" di Kiuhnm e delle "vowels too open or
too closed" direi che:
 in Romagna si possono ammirare le stelle con ragazze di nome Stella (ma
un romano o un toscano , per dire, capirebbe: "Mi chiamo Shtalla, andiamo
a vedere le shtalle?" )
 
I tOnni (con la o apertissima, risalgono come salmoni il corso di
Santerno,Sillaro, Senio e Montone) mentre i tonni normali risalgono il
Lamone (ma li' chiudono tutte le vocale, anche quelle aperte, tanto per
essere sicuri).
A proposito della Z romagnola: un romagnolo ha l'impressione che romani,
toscani  ecc ecc (insomma, di la' dalla linea gotica) usino la z quando
servirebbe l'S (una S ha da essere una SH!) e quindi trascriverebbe un
dialoghi di questi popoli cosi': " Zi, zi, c'e' il zole qua da noi..."
Impossibile convincerlo che e' lui che ha la Z romagnola.
E per ultimo: in Romagna se pronunci bene le S o sei toscano (o
genericamente "meridionale")  oppure vuoi fare il fighetto (nemico
naturale del "vero birro romagnolo"). Se sei gay, sei giustificato.
ciao 
Weiss
:-)
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 Se sei gay, sei giustificato.
Ehi, attento a chi parli. :P
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 Impossibile convincerlo che e' lui che ha la Z romagnola.
Then why doesn't this happen when we watch film dubbed by professional 
dubber?
Kiuhnm

 wrote in message
news:ZOvXh.17418$uJ5.3...@twister2.libero.it...
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I often hear the word "Torinese" pronounced something like "Towinese",
something like a Frenchman would pronounce it, on Italian TV, and was
wondering if this could be an example of "rotacismo''', or whether it is
merely characteristic of certain regional accents, or could it be either?
In English, the inability to correctly pronounce the letter "l", or the
propensity to pronounce the letter "r" as "l", is called "lallation".
One of the most famous broadcasters in the US, Tom Brokaw, suffers from this
speech defect.
Tom Brokaw has difficulty pronouncing the letter "l". He is from the Western
United States, and his speech defect has nothing to do with his native
accent. However, his pronunciation of the letter "l" is very similar to the
pronunciation of the letter "l" in the Philadelphia-Camden accent of the
Eastern US, and sometimes it takes a while to discover whether a speaker
suffers from "lallation", or is merely inflicted with a case of the
''Philadelphia accent". For Americans who are not native speakers of the
Philadelphia-Camden accent, the Philadelphia "l'' is impossible to imitate.
The best example I could find of the Philadelphia accent is this mp3 file,
Chapter One of the Science-Fiction audio book "Ida" (taken from the name of
a real
asteroid), read by the author, a Philadelphian named Tim Callahan. Notice
the pronunciation of the
letter "l".
Certain other characteristics of the Philadelphia accent are also evident.
Note the pronunciation of: Ida, control, about, tall, close, most of,
asteroids, on, hours, astral, gold, didn't, over, wouldn't, items, all the
way, cold, disappointed, orbited, miscellaneous, cool, tinted, important,
almost, shuttle, around, open, filled, feel, metal, pointed, oldest, Gail,
recalled, hope, on, forward, sound, brown, industry, smartest, only,
overcrowded, talent, etc.
The reader is trying to overcome his Philadelphia accent, so in some cases
he pronounces the same word in different ways, and sometimes he successfully
avoids the "Philadelphia L". Some things he cannot overcome, such as
pronouncing "Ida" as "Oida" over and over again!
http://archive-c02m01.libsyn.com/podcasts/2c0b0af653b62d16b3468106a3a59aee
Joe from Massachussetts


http://tpcomputerman.libsyn.com/
Joe from Massachussetts

 dubber?
Una domanda interessante.
Intanto i romani esagerano e virano verso la z piu' di quanto facciano i
toscani (per me dicono in effetti: "tzole").
Poi, un doppiatore non ha accenti regionali, questo a mio parere incide
sulla percezioni dei suoni.
D'altra parte nessun romagnolo pensa di avere una s particolarmente forte,
fino a quando non si sente in una registrazione...
:-)
Weiss
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 merely characteristic of certain regional accents, or could it be either?
Direi che e' un difetto di pronuncia, la cosi detta "r moscia".
In alcune regioni italiane (zona di Parma, Emilia, Piemonte) e'
relativamente diffuso, ma penso sia da considerarsi un difetto piu' che un
regionalismo (non sanno o non possono pronunciare la r vibrante, non e'
che la "sbagliano").
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 :-)
That's true. My tongue touches the alveolar ridge when I emit the sound 
"S". You can get the same result by saying "Sh" and then removing the 
sound "h" without moving your tongue.
Kiuhnm


Looking for "r moscia", I found this on 
about.com
:
«The fact is, some Italians cannot roll their r's either. Called "la erre
moscia" (soft r), it's oftentimes a result of a regional accent or dialect
and also traditionally associated with upper class speech. Italians from the
north of Italy, especially in the northwest region of Piedmont (close to the
French border) are famous for this speech variation - which shouldn't be a
surprise, given the influence of the French language on the local dialect.
In fact, the linguistic phenomenon is also called "la erre alla francese."»
http://italian.about.com/od/grammar/a/aa041906a.htm
Would you assume when hearing the "r moscia" from a TV presenter that the
speaker was from Piemonte?
Joe from Massachusetts

 Joe from Massachusetts
I for one wouldn't. I could guess he's either from Parma or Piedmont, but most 
times I could just assume he's got a defect of pronunciation or maybe he's 
mocking the late Avvocato Agnelli's accent... :-) 

 speaker was from Piemonte?
No, direi proprio di no. Considera poi che ci sono molti che a volte hanno 
la erre moscia e a volte la pronunciano correttamente, non so bene per quale 
motivo.
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