Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: grazie per "research edge" (ma non solo)

Ringrazio Ron, Luisa, Dale Erwin, Panurgo13, Loki, John G Davies,
Buongiorgio (e scusatemi se ho dimenticato qualcuno) per come hanno
sviscerato il significato di "research edge". Avrei altro pane per i
loro denti:
Freud attracted and enjoyed the company of brilliant women, such as
Andreas-Salomé, though his wife Martha ensured that their theories
stopped at the nursery door.
La domanda è: che cosa si intende qui per "stopped at the nursery door"?
ciao a tutti
Attilio

 La domanda è: che cosa si intende qui per "stopped at the nursery door"?
Si intendeva dire "their theories were not allowed to mature." The writer treats
the theories as children, not allowed to grow beyond the stage of their early
birth. Thus, it seems, Martha discouraged Freud from assimilating or expanding
the theories of brilliant women.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 wrote in message
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Ron, I am a bit puzzled. On the one hand, your explanation seems quite
satisfying but on the other hand I have some lingering doubts.On reading
Attilio's question and before reading your answer my idea was to translate
the passage like this: "Martha saw that Freud's theories on children's
education could not enter her own nursery". I mean: Freud had founded brand
new theories on children's education and these theories could seem a bit too
advanced even to his wife; therefore she might have opposed Freud's attempts
to grow up their children according to his principles. In this sense, she
kept Freud's ideas from entering their nursery.
I would regard my explanation as fully convincing but for the fact that the
passage reads "ensured that THEIR theories...". One would expect the
adjective HIS, given the fact that no women in Freud's time created
psychological theories, however brilliant those women were.
Maybe Attilio should give some more detail of what follows the quoted
passage, so that we can find a sensible explanation.
ciao.
"Fay Ce Que Vouldras"
panurgo13

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Ricopio un brano più ampio, ma temo che non sarà molto utile.
It is somewhat paradoxical that the practice of psychoanalysis in the
interwar period and after offered special scope to women and that their
contributions were substantial.
Freud attracted and enjoyed the company of brilliant women, such as
Andreas-Salomé, though his wife Martha ensured that their theories
stopped at the nursery door.
His consulting room also taught him women's secrets to an unusual
extent, though it has been remarked that his patients responded to him
as a man and thus confirmed the assumptions about sexual difference that
he already held.
Comunque io ho un'ipotesi più precisa, e mi azzardo a proporvela.
Mi chiedo se è possibile interpretare la frase:
Martha ensured that their theories
stopped at the nursery door
come una metafora per:
Martha era certa che i rapporti di Freud e Lou Andreas-Salomé non si
erano sviluppati oltre un certo limite (= essi non erano andati a letto insieme).
Ciao
Attilio

 Attilio
Mi sembra che Ron abbia ragione. La forte presenza della donna psicanalista
è sorprendente, visto che la moglie di Freud ha impedito le sue teorie di
svilupparsi. Forse aveva soprattutto l'intenzione di impedire loro di andare
a letto però...
J

 insieme).
Dove sarebbero andati a letto, nel nursery? Meno male che si sono fermati alla
porta. Mi dispiace Attilo ma in questo caso sei sbagliato. Le parole tra le
virgole "such as Andreas-Salomé" sono la spiegazione di "brilliant women."
Significa "per esempio, Andreas-Salomé." Riesco a vedere perchè pensi così ma
non dimenticare che Freud era austriaco, non italiano. E, più importante, il
significato della frase è abbastanza chiara.

 satisfying but on the other hand I have some lingering doubts.
I think that the meaning would be rather clear to most native English speakers.
Regardless of the veracity of the statement, the word "though" (sebbene) ties
the idea expounded in the last clause to that of the first clause. No mention is
made of children's education. The topic sentence (first sentence in a paragraph)
in the expanded citation offered by Attilo also reinforces the main idea of "the
contributions of women."
Incidently, in the spirit of improving your fine English, one says "to raise"
rather than "to grow up" their children.
Ciao,
Ron
USA


I do totally agree with your explanation.
As for that "THEIR", it seems to be referred to the theories of both F. and
the brilliant women (better not give for granted their lack of ideas, but
preferably consider that no one would have published them or even listened
to).
At a first glance, this is the idea that comes to my mind and it seems to be
quite logical.
As if she thought something like "Whenever you were the genius of the
century, I AM the mother of your children and you better keep far from the
nursery door, you perverted scientist." ...Mh..sounds too hard? ...seems so
logical...

 to).
I pointed out that there was no reference to the education of children in this
sentence, or even the paragraph as Attilo has revealed. However, as I think
about it there is also no reference to Martha's influence on Sigmund's
professional decisions. So, both interpretations require unsubstantiated
assumptions. The lack of clarity in the sentence made me read "nursery door" as
a metaphor, but I may have given the writer too much credit. Then again, why
would one assume that if brilliant women are devising psychological theories
then they must be about educating children? Perhaps the writer mentioned
something earlier but more likely it is just a poorly written passage.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 rather than "to grow up" their children.
Thanks. I can't really figure out how I could make so gross a mistake!
ciao
"Fay Ce Que Vouldras"
http://panurgo13.supereva.it
panurgo13

 logical...
This was (and is) my very idea, even though I'm not absolutely sure of it.
Ron has pointed out the fact that no mention of children and of children's
education is made in the passage. Nevertheless I think it much more
improbable for Martha to be able to stop the course of a new psychological
theory, than to keep her husband from experimenting on their children.
BTW, it must be noted that of Freud's six children only one (Anna)
eventually became a psychiatrist... Doesn't that ring a bell?
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 eventually became a psychiatrist... Doesn't that ring a bell?
Dear panurgo 13,
is it true that Anna Freud was the only one to became a psychiatrist, but
she is considered the pioneer of children psychoanalysis. Also in this case
bells are ringing loud. :-))
On the other hand, it is not so strange that the other older children did
not embrace a profession that, at the time, was very far from being the
rewarding profession that is now.
Now, coming back to  the topic proposed by Attilio, I want just quote a
paragraph from the official (?) Freud site 
http://www.freud.org.uk/fie3.html
"Martha herself was the accepted authority in domestic matters. We are told
that she showed little interest in her husbandís work; she seems to have
preferred it to be kept locked in the study along with the collection of
antiquities. She certainly kept him away from the nursery, despite the fact
that he has several works on child development in his library. In the early
days Freud had to rely on the observations of his friend Wilhelm Fliess to
supplement his studies. "
This is not absolute proof about the meaning of Attilio's phrase, but the
similarity is quite astonishing.
Before performing my own research, I was perfectly convinced by Ron's
interpretation, because of his reasoning and because I think that we must
let prevail a mothertongue interpretation when the text give us no other
clues.
But, it is quite apparent that Martha was not interested in psychoanalysis,
and, another fact, Lou Salomè is better known as a writer, but she was also
a psychoanalyst. So, IMHO,it is more likely that the meaning is that Martha
prevented Sigmund and his court from using the nursery as a psychoanalysis
lab.
If this is the correct interpretation, I agree with Ron: it is a poorly
written passage.
Ciao
Giorgio

 ...Mh..sounds too hard? ...seems so logical...
Exactly what I thought too. :-)) IMHO it all hinges on the character
of Martha, did she think the sun shone out of Freud or not. I vote
for not, even his daughter disagreed with many of his theories. 
Cheers,
Loki
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 for not, even his daughter disagreed with many of his theories.
Well said!
And I would like to add just a couple of lines (ehm... not exactely a
couple!) , and of course, as Loki underlined for herself,  in my very humble
opinion:
What in the passage is shown as a simple metaphor (we all could clearly
identify it as a metaphor, since the language-creation process at its deep
level is quite similar for many of that languages which share a kind of
common culture), is more than just a linguistic device (however refined it
may be).
It is a metaphor, but even more striking because a real reference too.
Brilliant, provided that this was is really the author's aim.
In that case the double edge of this expression proves much more than a
lousy writing in-ability, don't you all agree?
As for the fact that the author doesn't actually  mention any precise
reference to either Freud's theories or Martha's attitude regarding them, I
guess that the context in this case would be provided by a shared range of
assumptions towards Freud and his wife.
Most of us are able to recognise the guiding lines of Freud's theories; and
as for the relationship with his wife, it is maybe just a symbol of the
century's attitude towards some of Freud's revolutionary essays.
It is something we are thought at school, today! The author could have given
that for granted.
Maybe Martha's personality was far from brilliant, and she spent most of her
time trying to keep separate her children from
her husband's experiments. Provided that this is true, wouldn't it sound
natural (in the sense of animal instict against mere reason)? Raisin' good
children has nothing to do with being a great scientist, not necessarily, I
mean!
I wouldn't narrow the revolutionary power of the new (for the time) theories
regarding children education to a sort of housewives' hobby. If those
brilliant women devoted themselves to raising children according to the new
theories, instead of debating of life and death instict, they maybe-I say
maybe-esteemed nothing more important than human personality, and as we all
well know there's only one way to let it develop really free and
well-balanced: taking care of it since childhood.
The rest are all remedies, unfortunately.
The Lady who loved Jung

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imho, Martha is just helping someone (?) to understand  the following process:
Sigmund Freud--->Lou Salome' and other "talented women" who were
attracted by F. and "his" theories---->Anna Freud.
As a matter of fact, it is Anna herself who picked Salome' as one of the
major "sources" in the development of "her" theories. 
Now, "their theories"(Salome's and Co., "talented women attracted by F.)
were not introduced - much less "applied"- to Anna(and to the other
kids, for that matter) "at home".
Anna Freud developed her own theories, eventually.
ciao,
alessandro

 The Lady who loved Jung
I too have an appreciation for Jung, and also for Freud who has been much
maligned in recent years. I think it's amusing to hear people who dismiss his
contributions to then use words like ego and subconcious with all the richness
of connotation that he added to them.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 me, of course...
Ed io, so un po di tutto e tanto di niente. Ma non mi fa smettere d'avere le
opinioni.
Ciao,
Ron
USA
Grato sempre per le correzioni

 The Lady who loved Jung
I quite like Adler. :-)
Loki
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