Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: was given

Studiando inglese ho trovato questa frase
"this money was given on condition that opera was made mess elitist"
Ho una domanda sul verbo utilizzato:
la frase "io sono andato" si traduce utilizzando il present perfect "I have 
gone" quindi mi viene da pensare che "Io ero andato" si traduce utilizzando 
il  past perfect "I had gone"
Ora mi trovo in questa frase "it was given", perchč?
Non dovrebbe essere "it had given"?

 Non dovrebbe essere "it had given"?
e' passivo

 e' passivo
Quindi per frasi passive si può tradurre "fu dato" come "it was give"? 


come "it was given"? 

 come "it was given"?
o "era dato" o "e' stato dato"

 come "it was given"?
o "era dato" o "e' stato dato"
Ok.
Ti ringrazio Adam
Francesco 

 Ok.
Posso darti un consiglio?
Scordati l'italiano quando devi decidere che tempo usare, prenditi una
buona grammatica(Lo Swan ad esempio) e studiati bene i vari tempi e il 
loro uso.
Confrontare italiano e inglese di continuo confonde ancora più le
idee(per me è cosi')


Io invece preferisco focalizzare le differenze tra l'italiano e l'inglese in 
modo da memorizzare meglio sia le analogie che le diversità tra le 2 lingue.
Ovviamente, ognuno poi agisce come meglio riesce ad ottiene i risultati 


It should be "that the opera be made less elitist".
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:Sj9Pj.28975$KJ1....@newsfe19.lga...

Unless you're talking about the browser, in which case it would be "that
Opera be made less elitist".
Joe from Massachusetts

 Opera be made less elitist".
La frase scritta č:
"this money was given on condition that opera was made less elitist"

 wrote in message
news:480d245b$0$29978$5fc...@news.tiscali.it...

It could be that the money was given to make all (lyric) opera in general
less elitist, but the phrase should still read "that opera be made less
elitist". "Was" is wrong here. The subjunctive is required.
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
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Another alternative might be "that opera was to be made less elitist".
Joe from Massachusetts


«The Brache Estate sports ground occupies land sold by the late Lady Zia
Wernher to the car company on condition that it be used for sport.»
One of many examples here in the BNC
http://sara.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/saraWeb?qy=that+it+be
Joe from Massachusetts

>> elitist". "Was" is wrong here. The subjunctive is required.
Is the following sentence correct?
"They agreed to lend me the car on condition that I were careful."
Kiuhnm

 "They agreed to lend me the car on condition that I were careful."
" ... on condition that I be careful" although you are much more likely to 
hear "was".
Antonio

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I don't understand why. Isn't "were" subjunctive?
Kiuhnm

 wrote in
news:480e479d$0$41660$
4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it
: 

I was about to write that you want the present subjunctive, which you would 
if you were explaining to me how you'd persuaded them to lend you the car 
in which you've just arrived.
However, if you are now explaining how you persuaded your parents to lend 
you the car last year then that would be in the past. But "were"
still sounds wrong there. I think it still needs "be", probably because it 
is a command or a request or an exhortation.
Maybe someone else can explain the real reason (assuming I'm not in error).
Antonio

 wrote in message
news:Xns9A88C8B87B695...@80.5.182.99...

I'm sure you might hear "was" in this context, but not from anyone who knows
the language, just as you might hear "Se ero in te" instead of "Se fossi in
te", but that doesn't make it authoritative.
Again, consultking the BNC or even Google will confirm that "be" is much
more common, and "was" is extremely rare (if it can even be found) in this
type of sentence.
Googling "that I be careful" and "that I was careful", I can't find anything
but simple indicative sentences using "was", while there are many
subjunctive uses of "be".
The same goes for the BNC.
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
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It is subjunctive, just the wrong subjunctive.
http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-subjunctive.htm
In situations like this, I find the BNC extremely valuable.
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:480e479d$0$41660$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...

It is subjunctive, just the wrong subjunctive.


 In situations like this, I find the BNC extremely valuable.
I even thought that 'went' in "If I went..." was subjunctive...
Kiuhnm

 knows the language, 
Perhaps the subjunctive is alive and well and thriving in the US, but in 
the UK it's slowly dying a death. I'm sure you'll hear "was" much more than 
"be". That doesn't make it right, but give it another 25 years or so ...
Either that or you'd be surprised at how many people don't know the 
language!
Antonio


You said «"...on condition that I be careful" although you are much more
likely to
hear "was".»
I googled in vain trying to find one single example of this gross error
which you say is so common, but could not find a single instance. Maybe you
could find one and point it out to me?
Joe from Massachusetts

 could find one and point it out to me?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=it&q=%22on+condition+that+I+was%22&btnG=Cerca+con+Google&lr=
finds 44 matches.
And he's right. The subjunctive, _especially_ the present subjunctive,
is dead or dying in the UK. I'd
almost recommend avoiding constructions which use the present
subjunctive in the UK. (I wouldn't
recommend using them with the indicative instead.).

 In situations like this, I find the BNC extremely valuable.
What about "I wish I went"?
Is it a subjunctive or what?
And "It's time we went"?
Kiuhnm

 is dead or dying in the UK. 
Be what may! ;)

 I don't understand why. Isn't "were" subjunctive?
Quello che mi ha meravigliato leggendo il link di Joe, è che anche al passato si usa sempre 'be':
"It was essential that she be present."
In pratica "were" si userebbe solo nei periodi ipotetici e nelle frasi con 'as if', 'wish' e 'suppose', sempre 
stando al link.

 I googled in vain trying 
Just wait until you have as much CCTV as we do and the big G find it 
worthwhile to code up "Google Conversations" :-)
Until that "happy" day, you'll have to settle for the anecdotal evidence of 
my ears. If you are unfortunate enough to catch a few episodes of 
Eastenders you'll undoutebdly catch a few missing subjunctives.
I couldn't find "that I be careful" on google either. I presume that either 
this sort of construction rarely crops up in blogs or that people avoid the 
whole issue when writing. Perhaps they put more thought into their writing.
The subjunctive in the UK was dying 20 years ago, I doubt it will be around 
for much longer. Even such constructions as "If I were you..." often turn 
into "If I was you ..." in speech.
Antonio

 Be what may! ;)
Be that as it may, ...
Antonio

Antonio Carlini wrote:

Let it be what it may. ;)))

 could find one and point it out to me?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=it&q=%22on+condition+that+I+was%22&btnG=Cerca+con+Google&lr=
finds 44 matches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=it&q=%22on+condition+that+I+be%22&btnG=Cerca&lr=
finds 425 matches
Joe from Massachusetts

 finds 425 matches
I'm sure it does. So? You claimed you found 0 uses of the "was"
version. I found some. Do I think it's correct? Not really. Do I think
people use it? Yes.

 And "It's time we went"?
Subjunctive.
Joe from Massachusetts

 Subjunctive.
Then something is not right.
According to
http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-subjunctive.htm
the (present and past) subjunctive of "to go" is "go".
Kiuhnm

Kiuhnm wrote:

Mi pare che usano i termini in maniera non proprio corretta.
In realtą, nell'esempio che fanno in quella pagina, 
"The board of directors recommended that he join the company."
si tratta sempre del *present* subjunctive, non del past. 
Vedi anche
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood#To_express_a_command.2C_request.2C_or_suggestion
[...]
 Note that the present subjunctive is used in these cases regardless of the
actual time reference (which must be conveyed by the tense of the main
verb):
I move(d) that the bill be put to a vote. 
I ask(ed) that he be shown mercy. 
It is (or was) necessary that we not forget our instructions. 
Her insistence that he leave seems (or seemed) rude. 

 si tratta sempre del *present* subjunctive, non del past. 
Then I was right: 'went' in "If I went..." is (or can be) a subjunctive!
Kiuhnm

 I'm sure it does. So? You claimed you found 0 uses of the "was"
Not a claim, but a statement of fact.
The two queries related to the original posted phrase "on condition that I
be (was) careful" were:
«condition "That I was careful"»
161 hits
Not a single one is anything other than a simple indicative, totally
unrelated to the possible subjunctive/indicative swap of "be" and "was" in
question.
http://www.google.com/search?q=+condition+%22that+i+was+careful%22&hl=en&start=30&sa=N
«condition "that i be careful"»
36 hits
All of them are uses of the subjunctive "be", in which substituting "was"
for "be" would be either impossible, or would radically change the meaning
of the sentence.
http://www.google.com/search?q=condition+%22that+i+be+careful%22&hl=en&start=20&sa=N
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:Xns9A89C063DFD6a...@80.5.182.99...

"Was" and "were" are almost interchangeable in conversation, with "was"
winning out by far, but in some cases the "were" wins out, as in phrases
beginning with "were you to...". Substituting "was" here would be extremely
rare, if it were (was?) heard at all.
I think that people avoid the subjunctive by rephrasing their sentences.
Indeed many people go through life without ever having used a pluperfect.
Joe from Massachusetts