Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: That's Amore ;)

"Pasta Fazool"
Pleeeese ditemi che *NON* e' cio' che penso...


Non solo credo sia cio' che pensi.. ma aggiungo (forse facendo una
figuraccia mostruosa) "Ti e' piaciuto il film almeno?" (Moonstruck, I
suppose)
Ciao,		beatrice
-- 
Per rispondermi in email rimuovi .bea
To our limited intelligence, it would seem a simple task to 
divide a nucleus into equal parts. The cell, manifestly, 
entertains a very different opinion. - E.B. Wilson 

 suppose)
hehehhe supponi bene [1], but... I cannot answer!!!!! I've just watched
subtitles :)))))
btw, English speakers, are you aware that the Italian sentences sounds quite
"weird"? I'm quite sure they're not mother tongue... well Italian I mean ;)
have a great day
[1] ok uno era Livingstone... ma l'altro?!?!?!??

 Last summer in the States I realized that my American friends were under
the impression that the Italian for Pasta and Beans
    was Pasta e Fasool (The right anglo-neapolitan spelling ).
    Actually that is the dialectal neapolitan form used by the immigrants
coming from southern italy at the beginning of the century.
The correct Italian is Pasta e fagioli (non come la fanno i veneti però ) .
The historian of the NG might remember some posts of mine from last
September in which I mentioned the neapolitan word
scungilli widely used in New York to define the huge conical shells you can
taste in the restaurants of Little Italy.
Yours
Sal

coming from southern italy at the beginning of the century.
Many of the "Italian" expressions used in the US come from southern dialects. 
Of course, over here, they think they are speaking Italian.  In fact, many
times I get asked questions I can't answer which makes me look like a liar when
I tell people I am "ITalian".
ciao
Arianna

>coming from southern italy at the beginning of the century.
Here's the whole song and a ROTFLMAO, charming, lovely song I must say. If
some of you haven't heard it yet, please, give it a try, after all....
THAT'S AMORE.... (Jack Brooks / Harry Warren), who doesn't like it?  :P
In Napoli,
Where love is king,
When boy meets girl,
Here's what they say...
When the moon,
Hits your eye,
Like a big pizza pie,
That's amore.
When the world,
Seems to shine,
Like you've had too much wine,
That's amore
Bells will ring,
Ting-a-ling-a-ling,
Ting-a-ling-a-ling,
And you'll sing Veeta bella.  (!!LOL!!)
Hearts will play,
Tippy-tippy-tay,
Tippy-tippy-tay,
Like a gay tarantella.(lucky fella)
 When the stars,
make you drool,
Just like a pasta fazool,
That's amore.
When you dance,
Down the street,
With a cloud,
At your feet,
You're in love.
When you walk,
In a dream,
But you know,
You're not dreaming signore.
Scuzza me,    -anyone mind telling me what Italian dialect this is?  :)))
But you see,
Back in old Napoli
That's amore!
C'mon, altogether:  HIP HIP HURRAY for Dean Martin!!!!
Girtin8

 Of course, over here, they think they are speaking Italian.
I'd like to make a tangential point not related to the thrust of your post.
Shouldn't we accept dialects under the umbrella of the Italian language? If I
were to cavalierly say to some Americans who speak a dialect learned from their
parents that "you don't speak Italian" I can imagine the reaction. It's like
telling people from Quebec that they don't speak French or people from Mexico
that they don't speak Spanish. Well, maybe this is a relative perspective--if
you said that I don't speak English I'd be less inclined to debate that point
than if you said my father doesn't speak Italian. What should we have called the
pasta vazool, mannagott, finook, and gannol that graced our table but the names
handed down to us by our family?
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 handed down to us by our family?
<Since you were living in America it was alright for you to call those
things those very very strange names.
Would you care to tell me what the heck mannagott is supposed to be ?
Is gannol "cannoli alla siciliana ?
Yours
Sal

 Is gannol "cannoli alla siciliana ?
 A rinomata pitanza siciliani
Addiu,
Ron
USA

USA
Hmmm, do I read USA up there?!  Ron, from what I see you could as well be
Sicilian!!   :)))
I must say I had to think a minute about the meaning of some words,  but I
guess that's quite normal since I'm from...  another planet.... or to be
more precise, the Veneto region.
Dear dwellers, see if you can figure this out ;)
A  plate of Polenta e osei, typical dish of the Veneto area, to those who
find the right meaning.
"Sto Ron xe cossì bon a parlar el sisian che'l me g'ha stupìo; non xe mia da
tutti i zorni catar fora 'n american che g'ha sto taento."
I'm not kidding here, I've just rung my grandpa and he came out with this
sentence; I have a doubt: do you think this can be considered Italian?
Girtin8

 tutti i zorni catar fora 'n american che g'ha sto taento."
Grazzi, ma haiu imparratu alcuni parole, nent'autru.
Salve,
Ron
USA

de tòc i dè de truà an americà ch'el gabe tot chel talent che"
Ta ghet prope risu', Cris. (L'e' 'n brao s'cet o 'n brao gnaro, de le
to bande?)
-- 
Isa
Work like you don't need money,
Love like you've never been hurt,
And dance like no one's watching
http://web.tiscalinet.it/alfabeto_auschwitz/

<<<<<<<You would need 20 umbrellas, one for each dialect.
A-hem, I beg your pardon? Are you meaning to say, since there are 20
official regions in Italy, there must be 20 dialects? Ten times as
much and we're not even close I'm afraid, Sal. Each and every province
has its own, with perhaps the sole exception of Tuscany, and
vocabulary and pronunciation often vary within the same province. Of
course you're right when you maintain some of them do not bear the
faintest resemblance to what we know as "Italian".


 Ron
<Primma 'e tutte o' siciliano tuoio è grande.
   Si proprio bbravo !
 But , again , what the heck are "manicotti " ?
I asked a colleague of mine from Enna and he has never heard of them.
In the official Italian language manicotti are either muffs or tube sleeves.
But I am only neapolitan, realmers from the other 19 regions might know
about them.
Yours
Sal

 faintest resemblance to what we know as "Italian".
<I do not know anything about poor Ron's state of health.
  I understand he is under the impression that Italian dialects are indeed
some form of Italian.
  I was not sure he was gonna stand the blow of knowing that dialects
sometimes vary from a part of the town to the other.
The news might have proven fatal if he had a heart condition.
Yours
Sal

 about them.
In Piemonte mi sembra indichi una varietà di insalata (manigot).
Ho l'impressione che in USA 'manicotti' sia il nome dei  cannelloni ripieni.
Sicuramente qualche emigrante ha esportato il termine 'manicotti', che ora è
nettamente minoritario in Italia. Non ho idea però di quale sia la regione
d'origine.
Ciao
Giorgio

 than if you said my father doesn't speak Italian.
Send a tape! ;)

 d'origine.
Ehm, volevo dire che non ho trovato alcun riscontro, però è chiaro che se
Ron ha appreso il termine dal dialetto avito, almeno in siciliano il termine
sarà stato usato.
Sempre in questo filone, mi domando poi, ma chi sarà mai quell'Alfredo che
negli USA si spaccia per l'inventore del sugo cosiddetto 'alla papalina'
(panna, prosciutto e piselli) ? Un siciliano anche lui ?
Ciao
Giorgio

joking aside, as far as I know Mexicans speaks Spanish with a strong accent,
Funny, because I've heard that they do speak, on the contrary, a very
refined form of Castellan in terms of vocabulary and structure, so
much that the Spanish find them "posh".


 (panna, prosciutto e piselli) ? Un siciliano anche lui ?
Ma e' la base dei tortellini di qualunque single!!!! ;)
Mai saputo che avesse un nome

signs, characters, sounds!
I must agree with this and, to make an example, see how differently the
Italian word 'sedia' is called:
- Bergamo = scagna
- 20 km from Bergamo = cardìga
- going towards Milan = cadrega
I think one could hardly consider them to be Italian words.
My father was born in Piemonte and it was really hard for me to understand
my Grandma's relatives when speaking their dialect and we are not that far
away.
I'm from Bergamo and I also have problems in understanding people who live
in the mountain.
It is not a matter of different pronounciation or different slang, we are
talking about different languages, also for as it concerns grammatical
structure.
Ciao scec!
CC

 - going towards Milan = cadrega
<<Veneto e Trentino Sedia = Carega
 Yours
Sal

 The news might have proven fatal if he had a heart condition.
Thank you Sal, but I'm in good health, I already knew about [some word instead
of Italian] dialects, and I remain pleasantly amused by your enthusiasm. I just
wonder, for your sake, if the Northern League is willing to accept neapolitani?
:-)
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 signs, characters, sounds!
A dialect isn't understandable? I think that depends on the listener. I'm well
aware of the fact that there are/were diverse dialects of [some word in place of
Italian] spoken in Italy because I listened as a child to the discussions about
the differences. My parents had some problem understanding each other and some
aunts and uncles spoke different dialects. This isn't a unique experience. I
have a friend who grew up in Mexico City and tells a story about first hearing
Spanish spoken by a Spaniard. She didn't find it understandable and thought of
it as a different language. Granted, the situation is more extreme in Italy
where so many foreign boots have tread.
If you want to disown this rich linguistic heritage and claim that the Tucsana
dialect is Italian, has always been Italian, will always be Italian, and no
other dialect may claim any relation to Italian, I won't argue with you. I just
refuse to tell my father that he doesn't speak Italian. :-)  (When in Roma, he
did get some quizzical stares, but they understood him.)
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 signs, characters, sounds!
Someone wrote or said: "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy".
But don't ask me who actually did. It seems this quote has been attributed
to a number of linguists, among which Roman Jakobson and Max Weinreich.
Max

 :-)
Mi dispiace, sebbene io abbia scritto questo scherzo senza rancore, credo che
possa essere troppo pesante. Ti presento le mie scuse.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 Scuzza me,    -anyone mind telling me what Italian dialect this is?
Non penso sia dialetto, mi sembra semplicemente uno spelling sbagliato
di
"scusami" (I'm sorry, i.e.: please forgive me - perdonami)
E sempre hurrà per il grande Dean!
Anna

 Ho l'impressione che in USA 'manicotti' sia il nome dei  cannelloni ripieni.
Sě, ripieni con riccotta. Ho cercato Google per la parola e ho trovato 14,300
posti dove si parlano dei manicotti. Per cannelloni c`erano soltanto 9,120
posti.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 <<Veneto e Trentino Sedia = Carega
I'm curious. Just what 'language family', do all these dialects belong
to? What is the parentage of Italian besides being a Romance dialect
like French. (Webster's example of dialect)
curiously,
Loki
-- 



Ahh, but how many were for Italian sites and how many for American
sites? 
I'd hesitate to use the internet as an 'authority'. 
On another topic I found many sites with 'sandles' instead of sandals.
(and yet to find any reference to Indian tribes, only their footware)
Cheers,
loki
-- 

 (and yet to find any reference to Indian tribes, only their footware)
:-|  :-|  :-|  :-|  :-|  :-|  :-D  :-|  :-|

that they don't speak Spanish
No, not at all.  Of course, Mexicans speak Spanish and the Quebecois speak
French.  You can say that there are slight differences in their language, but a
Mexican would have no problem understanding someone from Spain and vice versa. 
This is not the situation with Italian dialects.  Many dialects have very
little resemblance to the Italian language and cannot be understood by the rest
of Italy.  Personally, I do not understand any dialect except my own and even
with taht one I have problems most of the time.  I don't think people in the US
have a clear picture of what Italian dialects are, how they differ from our
language and culturally speaking, what their role is .  Many times I get asked
what language I speak and when I say that I speak Italian, the usual reply is
"Yeah...but what dialect do you speak?"  I have yet to find a good explanation
for "dialects vs Italian".   All I can tell you is that dialects are not
Italian and Italian is very different from most (if not all) dialects.  Ergo,
most Americans who have learned their first language from their Italian parents
do not speak Italian.  A walk through North Beach in SF would have confirmed
that about 30 years ago.  OK " fiulet"?
ciao
Arianna 

 to a number of linguists, among which Roman Jakobson and Max Weinreich.
And it seems that you understand the big picture too, Max.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 posti.
however try this 
http://www.garzanti.it
 :))) (always using
singular/masculine)

 much that the Spanish find them "posh".
****************
No, I do not agree gorgeous boy !!!!
You would not find a Spanish that thinks Mexicans speak  posh .....
First of all because they are considered by us as a poor country (more than
us anyway) so countries do not consider better the poorest.
They sound very soft language because they almost sing the sentences and are
very 'CARIÑOSOS'  but no more.
One think is true, poor people in Mexico have a better level of Spanish that
poor people in Spain...(meaning more vocabulary)
*****************
Here we go!
A very cute Spanish girl, who well knows how to distinguish things that
worth :)))))

 possa essere troppo pesante. Ti presento le mie scuse.
You should had to see yesterday evening a satirical (?) tv program showing
Bossi (NL Leader) as Hannibal the cannibal with the leather mask and saying
something like:
"The pope is from outside EC and has to go back to Poland; we cannot accept
a Pope stealing the job to ours!" :)))))

 I think one could hardly consider them to be Italian words.
Pota!

 wrote in message
944nak$c62l9$2...@ID-55125.news.dfncis.de...

This is a repost of something that went lost yesterday evening. I dare to
repost it since I suppose it will be useful for some of the Realmers in
order to get the so-called big picture.
May I submit an URL that deals quite extensively with the problem of Italian
dialects ?
http://www.simonel.com/university/lezione.html
It is an interview with the famous linguist Tristano Bolelli, and deals with
a lot of the arguments that have been raised in this thread, in first place
the fact that Italy is the country with the highest number of dialects for
surface unit. Another important fact that is there pointed out  is that the
first literary form of italian is considered to be the Sicilian used by the
poets at the court of Federico II. So, there is no doubt that Ron's parents
spoke Italian in a very deep sense.
Ciao
Idiolect Giorgio
Pir meu cori allegrari,
chi multu longiamenti
senza alligranza e joi d'amuri è statu,
mi ritornu in cantari,
ca forsi levimenti
da dimuranza turniria in usatu
di lu troppu taciri;
e quandu l'omu à rasuni di diri,
ben di' cantari e mustrari alligranza,
ca senza dimustranza
joi siria sempri di pocu valuri;
dunca ben di' cantari onni amaduri.
E si per ben amari
cantau juiusamenti
homo chi avissi in alcun tempu amatu,
ben lu diviria fari
plui dilittusamenti
eu, chi su di tal donna inamuratu,
dundi è dulci placiri,
preiu e valenza e juiusu pariri
e di billizi cuta[n]t' abondanza,
chi illu m'è pir simblanza
quandu eu la guardu, sintir la dulzuri
chi fa la tigra in illu miraturi;
chi si vidi livari
multu crudilimenti
sua nuritura, chi illa à nutricatu,
e si bonu li pari
mirarsi dulcimenti
dintru unu speclu chi li esti amustratu,
chi l'ublia siguiri.
Cusì m'è dulci mia donna vidiri:
chi 'n lei guardandu met[t]u in ublianza
tutta'altra mia intindanza,
sì chi instanti mi feri sou amuri
d'un culpu chi inavanza tutisuri.
Di chi eu putia sanar;
multu legeramenti,
sulu chi fussi a la mia donna a gratu
meu sirviri e pinari;
m'eu duitu fortimenti
chi quandu si rimembra di sou statu
nu lli dia displaciri.
Ma si quistu putissi adiviniri,
ch'Amori la ferissi de la lanza
chi mi fer' e mi lanza,
ben crederia guarir de mei doluri,
ca sintiramu equalimenti arduri.
Purriami laudari
d'Amori bonamenti,
com'omu da lui beni ammiritatu;
ma beni è da blasmari
Amur virasementi,
quandu illu dà favur da l'unu latu,
chi si l'amanti nun sa suffiriri,
disia d'amari e perdi sua speranza.
Ma eu suf[f]ru in usanza,
chi ò vistu adessa bon sufrituri
vinciri prova et aquistari hunuri.
E si pir suffiriri,
ni per amar lialmenti e timiri,
homo aquistau d'Amur gran beninanza,
digu avir confurtanza
eu, chi amu e timu e servi[i] a tutt'uri
cilatamenti plu chi altru amaduri.
Stefano Protonotaro- sec. XIII

to? 
I am not able to give you a technical answer, but as far as the
provinces of Milan, Bergamo and Brescia are concerned, the dialects
have much more in common with French than modern Italian.


sulla sponda bresciana.
Anch'io: a Rudiano si dice s'cet, a Verolanuova gnaro.
Ciao s'ceta,


 have much more in common with French than modern Italian.
<And it said that an Italian from Veneto will have no difficulty in
understanding someone from Spain but will be left gaping
if somebody from southern Italy talks his/her own dialect.
Yours
Sal

 did get some quizzical stares, but they understood him.)
<You may refuse it  but neither you or your father speak Italian when  you
speak Sicilian.
I am sure your Sicilian is spotless but it is still Sicilian i.e. another
language with its own rules and grammar.
I know you also speak real Italian so you are lucky :You speak 3 languages.
Last summer in Blue Point, N. J., my wife asked her great great cousin from
America in English :
May I go to the bathroom ?
She answered :
Te voi nar al cesso ?
She thought she was speaking Italian but actually she was speaking the
dialect handed down to her by  her parents
who had emigrated from their little village in the mountains at the
beginning of the century.
Besides she did not realize she was  being rude.
Cesso has grown out to be a very vulgar word over the years and only
uneducated people use it.
Her brother (not my wife's , her cousin's ) was present too and told us he
had used the word in Bormio (Lumbardy ,Northern Italy, posh ski resort ) and
nobody had even understood him .
When I wanted to communicate with my wife's relations I used my English
because I am from the south and I had to listen very attentively to their
dialect in order to get half of what they said.
And I have lived in Trento for 8 years now ; think of a Sicilian just off
the train in Trento !
They drove us to Atlantic City and they began talking about "sbarrar ".
I looked desperately around for bars blocking the road, for the police maybe
barring the way .
After a while I realized they were talking about hunting and shooting
(sparare which in their strange dialect had become sbarrar)
I know you are not convinced and I do not want to disappoint your old father
but anyway I am always
Yours
Sal

 wrote in message
news:9454kj$cmb56$1...@ID-55125.news.dfncis.de...

<I have to say thanks to you Ron.
   I have been taught a new American word I did not know about :"Manicotti
".
    No Italian would understand you are talking about cannelloni when you
say manicotti while women are going to need manicotti today in Trento since
the sun has not hit the sky like a big pizza pie and it is snowing.
The water tubes are in need of manicotti as well otherwise they will freeze.
It is a pity my mother does not live in Trento.
She is the only one I trust to cook cannelloni.
Yours
Sal

 wrote in message
news:944rhs$bokr6$1...@ID-55125.news.dfncis.de...

<Do not worry !
  I do not get offended very easily and your remark about Northern League
gives me the chance to tell  something
about the "received idea " non Italians have about Italy.
I was watching "The story of us " the other night .
Have you heard of it ?
The film with Bruce Willis and Michelle Pfeiffer.
There is a scene in the film in which the two dance in VENICE to the tune of
a TARANTELLA.
You should realize that the scene is ludicrous to Italian eyes.
This story has been going on for too many years (I remember a Lubitsch film
from the thirties in which a Venetian gondoliere
sang "Santa Lucia luntana , a famous neapolitan song) and I am fed up with
it.
Some of the venetian gondoliers are problably from the Northern League and
singing neapolitan songs is something appaling to them .
Even if they wanted they would not have a clue as to the words and the
crooning skills.
You can see such crap only in American films.
Shall we talk about Germany ?
I was in Munich with a class and when the Germans in the beer house we were
in ,realized we were from Italy they began
singing O' sole mio.
They thought they were doing us a favour but my poor students from the
mountainuos region of Trentino did not have a clue about the words and could
not join in as they would have liked to.
Italy is a more complex country than you might think if you listen to Dino
Crocietti excellent but rather stereotyped crooning.
Yours
Sal

 I know you are not convinced and I do not want to disappoint your old father
Our difference on this point is one of perception and semantics. Naturally you
might be inclined toward a practical view and I toward a social historical view
given our respective situations. Perhaps you should consider reading Tristano
Bolelli 
http://www.simonel.com/university/lezione.html
 as so kindly posted by
Buongiorno. Meanwhile, I will consider returning to my old response to inquiries
about my ethnic heritage as "no, not Italian, but rather half Sicilian and half
Italian. (Or should that be half Neapolitan?)
Ciao,
Ron
USA
PS: I may not be posting for a while--it depends on whether I will be
cyber-enabled while in Rome.


<<We are talking at cross purposes here.
The people I am talking about come from a little village in the mountains in
Trentino, northern Italy, practically
Austria.
<Enjoy your visit to Italy
Yours
Sal

 Trentino, northern Italy, practically Austria.
Oh yeah, oops. Mind's on other things. I think we've had that discussion before
too.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 from southern Italy talks his/her own dialect.
I once saw a summer tv show (probably on RAI) where one man from Napoli
couldn't understand the other man from Napoli, so I believe you. :-)
cheers,
Loki
-- 

 about the "received idea " non Italians have about Italy. [snip]
Blame the movies - I always do. And the less crooning I hear the better!
;-))
Even in New Zealand among people who've been to Italy I find this self
same attachment to 'O sole mio' as a song to be dragged out when one is
needed for an 'Italian' theme. Of course one of them was married to
someone down that way, so maybe it's understandable.
Me, I prefer 'Ciao amore', 'Azzurro' and other pop songs, perhaps there
are better representative songs that you could suggest to us. 
Cheers,
Loki
-- 

]

de tòc i dè de truà an americà ch'el gabe tot chel talent che"
Hey, I'm enjoying this game! Let's provide Ron with as many
translations of the sentence above as we can, in different Italian
dialects, to offer him and the other foreign posters a glimpse of
the actual picture!
Here is the most literal translation I could made up in my own
dialect, that is, sort of a probably italianized, 'degraded'
(towards std language) Emiliano:
"Ron, a-t'é acsé brêf a parlêr al siciliân ch'a-m t'e sciuchee
[=a-t m'e stupii]: l'é mia un lavour ed-tót i dé, catêr [=truêr] 'n
americân ch'al g'àbia tót col talèint ché [->lé?]."
Talèint p'r i léngui, a-voi dîr; mo anca un bel pô 'd pasînsia
a pruêr a lêser-t chi robi ché (s'a-t prôf da bòun).
(Diacritics, among other things, are an educated guesswork of mine,
there's no agreed orthography I know of for emiliano)
 I'm amazed at how similar it looks -and presumably sounds- to the
bergamasco sample. Maybe it is influence by the national language,
that I actually happen to translate from, since I don't master
emilian as fluently as Italian; in fact, not fluently at all.
Perhaps *both* Cristina_Ciocca and me were translating from Italian,
not just writing dialect, and that would explain the use of common
lexical borrowings.
As it is the case with what I believe is the vast majority of
italians under 30(40?), I've actually never spoken "my dialect"
except for a few words, only heard it spoken by older people; so I
have only a 'passive knowledge' of it (is that the English term?).
Therefore, there are two more shocking facts to let Ron know about:
1) present day dialects are probably even more alike to each other
than they were some, say, 80 years ago, at the time of his ancestors
in Italy; 2) dialects are rapidly fading away, so that I'm fairly
sure his parents not only speak a language that's quite different
from the "official" one, but also a language that, in the time span
of a generation, maybe two, will be a dead one even in the mother
country. :(  (when I started writing this was meant to be sort of a
joke, but now I can't help being quite saddened at the thought.
Still, that's plain truth).
	Enrico
P.S., rapido, e perciò in italiano:
Mi spiace per l'inglese, che dev'essere parecchio rozzo: non mi
sarei mai azzardato a sbucare dalla massa dei lurcatori, non fosse
stato per una improvvisa, e sottolineo improvvisa, ispirazione.
Be', ormai è andata.  Ad ogni modo approfitto per ringraziare il
newsgroup per le piacevoli ore già trascorse alla sua lettura, e per
le tante future.
Davvero grazie, a tutti.
<Plunges again into lurkers' Limbo>