Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Questione di "L"

A query for the anglophones:
is the /l/ sound ("L", not "I") in "will you" like the one in "will" or the
one in "willow"?
Ciao, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 one in "willow"?
Why shouln't it be the same?
dani

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I believe there is a slight difference, one that might only be discernible
to the most exacting of ears (=> FB :).
Since the L in willow is followed by a back-vowel, the L tends to be "low"
or "hard" (to use the Russian description), whereas the L in will you,
being followed by a front-vowel, becomes "higher" or "soft" (the Russian
term) due to the position of the tongue.
My opinion. But frankly, I wouldn't even have thought of it if FB weren't
so perceptive. 
-- 
Still on a temporary account. Now I've lost the DSL altogether.
Using DIALUP!

 so perceptive.
Si`, a volte FB mi manda in crisi, quando scopro di non aver notato
molte delle sfumature che il suo occhio e orecchio attentissimi non si
lasciano sfuggire! :-)

 lasciano sfuggire! :-)
F (orecchi-di-ferro) B
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 F (orecchi-di-ferro) B
The fact is I keep hearing "tell you" with the "L" of "willow", at least in
British films *. Do you know why? It's easier, that is probably why.
* just today I heard "Cornelia, I won't tell you again" in
I-can't-recall-the-title-earring-etc. Colin Firth/Vermeer said so, and the
"L" sound in "tell" wasn't the "L" sound of "tell" when it is pronounced
alone, but the "L" sound of "telling", for example.
I just saw some minutes, is it boring!
Bye, FB
-- 
Nasalization is just a part of life.
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 British films *. Do you know why? It's easier, that is probably why.
I don't know why, really. I think it's easier to use a soft-L in "tell
you", but I don't claim to be an expert on such usage.
If I hadn't studied Russian (or Polish) I wouldn't even know the hard-L
existed, let alone that it occurs in English.


 I just saw some minutes, is it boring!
Se avessi letto il libro, non ti sembrerebbe così noioso ;)
-- 
MercuriovivO ..::.. ArgentovivO

 existed, let alone that it occurs in English.
I'm glad you said that - I still don't know what you're all on about.
-- 
Mary

Mary Cassidy ha scritto:
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The best example I can come up with to illustrate it is the name "Lech
Walesa." I don't know much Polish, but I understand the correct
pronunciation of his name is something like "lech (German "ch") Va-WEN-sa",
with the "W" representing that sound of hard-L. It's not really a W, but
that's closer to the correct sound to a Polish ear than the sound of L.
(The L in his first name is not hard, but soft; therefore the L sound
instead of the W sound.
In Polish, the L of Walesa has a cross through it, and the E has a cedilla,
which I think is what gives it the nasal-en sound.
http://www.fact-index.com/l/le/lech_walesa.html
Any Poles in the vicinity are welcome -- encouraged, even -- to elaborate,
as I find written Polish extremely difficult to sound out.
Russian has similar "rules" about L before front and back vowels, or
whether or not it's followed by the soft-sign.
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Joey DoWop Dee ha scritto:

Curses! Now I've gotta find a beginning Polish grammar, so I can clear up
these "issues" that have been haunting me about Polish pronunciation.


 I'm glad you said that - I still don't know what you're all on about.
The "L" in "will", "bell" and "tell" is different from the "L" in "willow",
"will o' the wisp", "belly", "telly" etc., isn't it?
Do you pronounce "tell you" with the "L" of "will" or the "L" of "willow"?
I've recorded a small mp3, here you are:
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/howaremyls.mp3
 (200 Kb)
will
bell
tell 
willow
will o' the wisp (parola bislacca, ma è solo per far notare che lo stesso
"will" cambia se è da solo o segue consonante o se segue una vocale,
seppure in un'altra parola)
belly 
telly
tell you ("L" di "belly")
tell you ("L" di "bell")
Sbagliato niente?
I hope I've made myself understood.
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 these "issues" that have been haunting me about Polish pronunciation.
Ma il polacco è utile. Ci sono ottime possibilità di carriera: potresti
diventare Papa.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live, that is what I mean—so
Bunbury died".
"He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians".
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

 I've recorded a small mp3, here you are:
There are enough variations in pronounciation, regional and personal, that
make this distinction moot. JFYI though, I pronounce 'tell' like 'bell'.

 I hope I've made myself understood.
No, sorry, they all sound the same to me.
In Estuary English (London area), "tell you" sounds like "téwyu" - is
that what you mean?
-- 
Mary

 Ciao, FB
People who throw up in church are not allowed to be Pope.


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No. I mean that in correct English there are two Ls: the "L" of "low" and
the "L" of "all". You might ask your Italian son (you have a son, don't
you?). In American the question is more blurred, because the "L" of "all"
may be used practically everywhere, I think.
Try to say "bell" and, after a pause, "y". It's different from "belly",
isn't it?
No problem, anyway. I'm sure most Italians are not aware there are three Ns
in the Italian language ("anello", "anfibio", "angolo").
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 the "L" of "all".
Lingua piů arretrata sul palato, giusto?
Dunque, suono piů oscuro...
E' cosě?

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Sě. Č come se pronunciassi la "L" con la bocca zeppa di tiramisů o lasagne. 
Ciao, FB
-- 
"What meaning of this, Mitter Twain?". "I will tell you, Mr Wang, if you
can tell me why a man who possesses one of the most brilliant minds of this
century can't say his prepositions or articles".
(Murder by Death)

 o lasagne. 
With spinach and ricotta filling or meatballs?
[The L sound would change, you know ; ]

 Ok, I'll get myself some sponge,
That sounds vaguely vulgar, but I suppose the appropriate name, ladyfingers, 
isn't much better. 

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Sacrileeeege! Tiramisů must be made with lady's fingers, as you said, not
with sponge cake.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."



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I meant "sponge cake" :)

 with sponge cake.
You would not say lady's bugs to identify an insect, and the same rule
applies for savoiardi.

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I withdraw the correction as I reflect and realize that there are variations
in usage. But lady's fingers still reminds me of the B. Kliban "mousies" 
cartoon.
Love to eat them mousies
Mousie's what I love to eat.
Bite they little heads off
Nibble on they tiny feet.
-- B. Kliban

> applies for savoiardi.
I agree... (despite the Kliban reference, which is funny) I have always
only heard them referred to as "lady fingers."


 applies for savoiardi.
The variants "lady's fingers" and "ladies' fingers" do exist in the UK,
but they're more often used to refer to okra.
-- 
Mary

On 4 Oct 2004 10:45:27 +0200, Enrico C wrote:

Aspe', la "L" di "full" c'č anche in napoletano, n'est-ce pas? "Che
bellill' " ha la "L" di "full".
Ciao, FB
-- 
Locked from the inside. That can only mean one thing, and I don't know what
it is.
(Murder by Death)

 bellill' " ha la "L" di "full".
Già, forse è proprio la stessa :)

 Do you pronounce "tell you" with the "L" of "will" or the "L" of "willow"?
Anyway, I reckon they call the latter "dark L".
-- 
Enrico C
Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it
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