Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: "Will" and "would" to describe habit

Mike Brewer recently wrote on this ng that "will", unlike "would", when
used to talk about a habit, it implies "wilful persistence in unreasonable
behaviour":
QUOTE (
http://snipurl.com/fcms
)
To say ,'Every time I talk to my mother 
about ... , she *will* fly into a temper and tell me not to talk nonsense' 
might (possibly) sound OK - the '*will*' always suggests the idea of a 
wilful persistence in unreasonable behaviour.
UNQUOTE
Considering the whole discussion, I assumed that he meant that "will",
unlike would, _always_ implied the action to be unreasonable. The fact is
I've found many examples in which "will" seems analogous to "would", which,
I think, is neutral in meaning. For instance, I've heard something like
"before shooting a new series of episodes, I will see fifteen or twenty
hours of the previous ones: I will see the first ones, and the last ones
[...]" (I'm citing by heart, so there may be some errors). "Will" just
implies the action is habitual, doesn't it?
Bye, FB
-- 
Conversation like television set on honeymoon: unnecessary.
(Murder by Death)

 implies the action is habitual, doesn't it?
The examples you give are different than the example you cited from Mike. In 
the examples you give, "will" indicates a definite future action, while 
"would" would indicate a habitual past action. The only thing one could 
consider unreasonable about 'will' in your examples is any "willfullness" 
that may be implied by the context. For example: "You may not want me to see 
the previous episodes, but I _will_ see them!"
In the example "every time I talk to my mother about ... , she *will* fly 
into a temper and tell me not to talk nonsense," 'will' describes an 
expected 'result' or future action based on habitual past behavior. The 
implication is not only that she exhibited this behavior in the past, but 
that she _will_ exhibit this behavior again, given the same conditions. If 
the mother were no longer with us (that is, dead), you would not use the 
'will' construction. (And you _will_ not use it! Understood?!?!) You would 
use the past tense in the first clause, and the conditional in the second 
clause: "Every time I spoke to my mother about..., she would fly into a 
temper and tell me not to talk nonsense". You can't say "Every time I talk 
to my mother about..., she would fly into a temper..." because you are 
mixing a present tense with the conditional in a non-hypothetical situation.
The better solution is to say "every time I talk to my mother about..., she 
flies into a temper...". I understand Mike's suggestion about 
unreasonableness in this example, but it comes from the context, not the 
'will'. It does not imply unreasonableness to say "every time I talk to my 
mother about..., she will get such a big smile on her face!" 

 "would" would indicate a habitual past action.
I should clarify that with your example the 'habitual' could be implied by 
the context. You may intend to say "Each time before shooting a new series 
of episodes, I will see fifteen...". Instead, you can omit the "each time" 
or other indicator of habitual action if the habituality is implied by 
context. In any case, it's better to say "(Each time) before shooting a new 
series of episodes, I see fifteen...". 

 mother about..., she will get such a big smile on her face!"
That's exactly what I meant. I assumed, but I guess I misunderstood him,
that according to Mike "will", unlike "would", always implies
unreasonableness when used to describe a habit (and, of course, they are
not interchangeable, since one is a present tense and one a past tense).
I'd always thought that both only describe a habit, every further
implication depending on the context.
Bye, FB
-- 
Emily: "I'm going to Europe and I'm going to have a marvellous time. I'm
going to get up at ten and have two glasses of wine at lunch every single
day."
Richard: "Only prostitutes have two glasses of wine at lunch!"
(Gilmore Girls, 501)

 of episodes, I will see fifteen...".
Sorry. That's what the actor meant. 
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
Nasalization is just a part of life.
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 implication depending on the context.
You probably understand this, but let me reiterate that 'will' or 'would'
don't identify an action as habitual. It is the presence of 'every time',
'each time', etc. or an implication from context that identify an action as
habitual.
For example, this sentence read without the benefit of any context is
ambiguous:
She would go to the store.
As common and intuitive as it may be to decide from this sentence that she
has been to the store in the past, at least once if not more than once, that
information is not present in the sentence itself. Context could easily
change your interpretaton.
They may open an adult toy store near her home. She would go to the store.

 She would go to the store.
It's certainly true.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
"I saw something nasty in the woodshed!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

 unreasonable; at least, not for me.
Unless Mike has another comment, I think you can assume that the 
"unreasonableness" was only in reference to a prediliction of usage in 
common speech, and not a restriction. In any case, it certainly is 
unreasonable for you to stay at home all day if you go to the seaside. Shut 
off that damn computer.

Si puo dire: "Ever since we had an argument we won't get along anymore" ?
grazie

 Si puo dire: "Ever since we had an argument we won't get along anymore" ?
No, devi dire "we don't get along any more".
-- 
Mary

 off that damn computer.
I actually don't like beaches. Sand, the sun...
Bye, FB
-- 
"While I'm here, might I make a few changes? I adore my bedroom, but do you 
think I could have my curtains washed? I believe they're red, but I should 
like to make sure."


 wrote in message 
news:128wwq5o5azc7$.1udea9c375bvx$.dlg@40tude.net...

Just got back from holiday - just in time , it seems ! No , I didn't mean 
that . I'm not one of those clever people who can dig out messages from the 
distant past , but as I recollect I was seeking clarification about the 
intention of the asterisks surrounding 'will' in the sentence you quote  : 
did they identify (as they often do) a word that is stressed ?  The point 
was important , because this use of the modal verb '*will*' (i.e. stressed) 
has the particular significance I ascribed to it , of implying wilful 
persistence in unreasonable behaviour . If the asterisks here were simply 
the OP's way of calling our attention to the word , then (as I think I 
probably went on to say) you wouldn't say this ; 'every time I talk ... she 
flies' would do the job .
In the case of your narcissistic director , if I said , ' Before shooting a 
new series of episodes , he *will* watch fifteen or twenty hours of the 
previous ones' (asterisks indicate stress) you would understand that I found 
this habit exasperating.
Often , though not necessarily ,  you find this use of *will*  reinforced by 
'insist on' or 'keep on' , e.g. 'he*will* insist on calling me Betty' , or 
'he *will* keep on talking about his hernias' (tho' you could just say , 'he 
*will* call me Betty , though he knows I hate it' ,etc.) ; but the 
distinction remains : if you said of your director , 'Before shooting a new 
series of episodes , he will insist on watching ...'
('will' unstressed) you're simply reporting his habit in a neutral way .
Hope I've made myself clearer this time !
Mike 

 Hope I've made myself clearer this time !
Yep. Thank you.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Enjoying yourself, Elfine?"
"It's going to be such fun!"
"No, it's going to be amusing or diverting, not such fun, darling."


 wrote:

credo di aver capito, e per questo che si dice: "things will happen" ?
grazie