Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: that/which/who use of them at very high level

a parte la regola semplice che that va su tutto e which e who su cose e
persone rispettivamente
mi dicono dalla regia che c'� una regola ulteriore e particolare che
soprassidere l'uso di which
per cui in certi casi NON � assolutamente sostituibile con that
ne sapeve di pi�?
thx

 sorry

 wrote in message
news:4a61abdc$0$1107$4faf...@reader3.news.tin.it...
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�495
4 that = who/which
We often use that instead of who or which, especially in an informal style.
I like people that smile a lot.
This is the key that opens the garage.
Do you remember the people that we met in Italy?
I forget most of the films that I see.�
(Swan, "Practical English Usage")
Joe from Massachusetts


ok thx,
this is the simple rule I already knew
but they said to me there something more
some cases in which you CAN'T use that instead of which,
do you confirm that exception to the simple rule above?

 soprassidere l'uso di which
Santo cielo, che italiano approssimativo, anche lsciando stare i refusi
(scusami): "che soprassiede all'uso di which".
http://old.demauroparavia.it/110935

 "che soprassiede all'uso di which".
Scusa, sono ben sveglio anch'io: intendevo scrivere
"che PRESIEDE all'uso..."
� quello il verbo che avresti dovuto usare.

anche lsciando stare i refusi
           ^^^^^^
lasciando stare i refusi il mio italiano � pi� che perfetto,
ovviamente a chi ne ha un livello poco pi� che scolastico pu� parere errato,
ma questo � il destino di tutte le grandi penne, probabilmente troveresti
difficile e quindi accuseresti di approssimazione anche la sintassi
shakespeariana.
Aggiungi che io, i refusi, li ho corretti, tu, i tuoi, no; il che ha del
ridicolo e tu ne sei il soggetto :-)

 lasciando stare i refusi il mio italiano � pi� che perfetto
Fessacchiotto abbaiante, mi sono corretto poco sotto: sei cos� ignorante
che confondi "presiedere" con "soprassedere", che per altro coniughi con
difficolt�. Preoccupati d'imparare l'italiano prima dell'inglese.

 wrote in message
news:4a61b1c9$0$1112$4faf...@reader3.news.tin.it...

�495
3 use of that
That is common as a relative pronoun in identifying clauses. In
nonidentifying
clauses, that is unusual. Compare:
- Have you got a book which/that is really easy to read?
I lent him 'The Old Man and the Sea', which is really easy to read.
(NOT ... 'The Old Man and the Sea', that is really easy to read.)
- Where's the girl who/that sells the tickets?
This is Naomi, who sells the tickets. (NOT This is Naomi, that sells the
tickets.)�
(Swan again)
Joe from Massachusetts

 ha scritto nel
messaggio news:deliverysquash-...@192.168.1.3...

senti ragazzino analfabeta di provincia, se c'� uno che non sa n� italiano
n� inglese sei tu
oltre a non avere la minima cognizione di regole di buon comportamento (si
vede dagli insulti che fai, gratuitamente)
se non sai le cose e men che meno le sai spiegare, va al mare invece di
postare in un NG,
a stare a galla quelli come te ce la fanno bene!
ribadisco:


):
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It's maybe this: a rule I follow assiduously because, to my ear, there is a 
big difference between the use of which and that in subordinate clauses.
"It is a rule (*that*) I follow assiduously, *which* drives my colleagues 
crazy."
In this sentence, the fact that I follow the rule assiduously is what drives 
my colleagues crazy, not the rule itself.
It is a rule (*that *) I follow assiduously *that* drives my colleagues 
crazy. Here, the rule is the crazy-maker.
The "rule" also says you need a comma before "which," in a subordinate 
clause.
If you ask me to cite the rule I'll probably have difficulty finding it 
because it's one of the rules that are (not "which are") mostly ignored these 
days.
-- 
Joe/Joey da New York

 Aggiungi che io, i refusi, li ho corretti, tu, i tuoi, no
Bella interiezione. Non hai molti amici, vero Furio?
Magda, Magda?

Sto vedendo North and South (davvero molto bello).
Uno dice:
If we have to meet like that
i'd rather we never met again
Singifica
Se ci dovremo incontrare in quel modo
preferirei che non ci incontrassimo mai
E' da imparare...perche' a me spontaneamente non mi sarebbe mai venuta.
mi sarebbe venuto qualcosa del tipo
if we have to meet like that
i'd rather we never meet again....
ma la frase di sopra ï¿œ indubbiamente piu' corretta.
vorrei sapere...quanto ï¿œ scorretta la mia versione?
ciao
-- 
 >Giovanni

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 vorrei sapere...quanto ï¿œ scorretta la mia versione?
A me non pare granchï¿œ corretta nemmeno la prima. Innanzitutto, dovrebbe 
essere "meet" e non "met". Io comunque avrei detto:
If we have to meet like that, we'd rather never meet again.
Adesso aspettiamo le critiche :-)
Tabhall

 If we have to meet like that, we'd rather never meet again.
sï¿œ ma significa un'altra cosa.
con rather significa che preferiresti che non ci si incontri...
piuttosto non ti incontrerei nuovamente...
-- 
 >Giovanni

 wrote in message 
news:BC6zm.77241$9f6....@twister1.libero.it...
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so here we go :
Giovanni is right ; as he says , e' da imparare .
Your version changes the preference from 'mine' to 'our' - not 'I'd rather' 
, but 'we'd rather' , so the meaning is different ; grammatically speaking , 
your sentence is correct , if you imagine a situation where you are 
expressing on behalf of both of you a joint preference . For obvious reasons 
, 'I'd rather' is much more commonly found ..
In general , if the action involves only the speaker ('If we have to meet 
like that , I'd rather not see her at all') , the 'would rather' is followed 
by a bare infinitive ; but if the action following 'would rather' involves 
others , then it is followed by the past tense .
So what about 'If we have to meet like that , I'd rather we never meet 
again'  ? I'm not sure . I think Giovanni finds that natural because he 
hears a present subjunctive in 'we never meet' ; certainly earlier last 
century the construction ' I would rather you should do this' was standard 
(though not used now) , so 'I  would rather we should never meet again' 
(indeed , you'll find 'I would rather you shouldn't' as a complete sentence, 
which sounds very odd today , when we'd say 'I'd rather you didn't') ; so 
you'd expect to find the 'should do' also rendered by a subjunctive form , 
and indeed you can certainly see that is the case in phrases like 'I would 
rather we be..." ; so I think 'I would rather we never meet' is probably 
correct ('meet' being subjunctive) , and not as obsolete as the 'I would 
rather we should...'form , but all the same the construction with the past 
tense is almost universally used nowadays .
Mike 

 is almost universally used nowadays .
So I don't have to learn anything since averagely they are both correct?
It's complicated...I really think I have to pass...
Bye thank you bye bye.
-- 
 >Giovanni