Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Angels and Demons

I'd better introduce myself first. I'm an English lettore in Sassari. 
Originally I come from London.
That over with, what I really wanted to ask was whether anyone on this NG 
has already commented on the quality of the Italian in the English edition 
of Dan Brown's Angels and Demons. I only started following your discussions 
recently so I don't know if this thread has been done to death or if I'm the 
first to comment on it. Please let me know. If I am the first, I'll paste in 
a few examples. I can't imagine who wrote them - someone who passed himself 
off to ther publishers as an Italianist, or some third generation Italian 
American - or maybe it was Dan the Man himself. What is shocking is how this 
rubbish found its way into an internatonal bestseller.
Chris Pain 

 of Dan Brown's Angels and Demons. 
Not so far as I remember - I haven't read the book, so I know nothing
about it. The Italian's that bad, huh?
-- 
Mary

 rubbish found its way into an internatonal bestseller.
I read "The Da Vinci Code" (in English, of course) and I liked it (yes, it
was full of crap, but who cares). I bought "Angels and Demons" for 4.99
pounds but I have to finish "Guards! Guards!" first. I'll let you know.
Sebastiano

 What is shocking is how this rubbish found its way into an internatonal bestseller.
I don't find it shocking. (smiling face) I haven't read any of D.B's books,
but I fancy that life is too short to be spent reading that stuff.
Moreover, I'm a slow reader, so life is definitely too short to etc. etc.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?" "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability" "It is obviously the same person".
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

 What is shocking is how this rubbish found its way into an internatonal bestseller.
Yep, I do agree.
 I've heard that in the Italian translation of the book they've
translated also the "Italian" sentences :-)
'bye

 Mary
OK, here goes. It starts off slowly because the first few chapters are set 
in Switzerland, but even here they manage to mangle some Italian:
Chapter 3
"Si," the dark figure replied.
"Perfectamente." His words were as hard as the rock walls.
Chapter 27
"Vittoria, stop." The director sounded asthmatic now, as he accelerated 
after her.
"Slow down. We need to talk."
"Basta di parlare!"
"Think of your father," Kohler urged. "What would he do?"
In the meantime French and Latin undergo the same treatment:
Chapter 33
... an architectural trompe de l'oiel used to heighten the piazza's sense of 
grandeur.
Chapter 34
This would ensure that the cardinals kept Solum Dum prae oculis ... only God 
before their eyes
But it's when they finally get to the Vatican that things really start 
hotting up:
Chapter 35
The cart turned sharply right onto Via della Osservatorio. Signs pointed in 
all directions:
PALAZZIO GOVERNATORIO
COLLEGIO ETHIOPIANA
BASILICA SAN PIETRO
CAPELLA SISTINA
Chapter 36
Brightly dressed guards bustled about yelling orders in Italian.
"Continua cercando!" one yelled into a telephone.
"Probasti il museo?"another asked.
Langdon did not need fluent Italian to discern that the security center was 
currently in intense search mode.
"Signore," the guard urged, pointing to his watch again.
"Spazzare di capella."
Olivetti nodded and started to leave.
"Spazzare di capella?" Vittoria demanded. "You're leaving to sweep the 
chapel?"
Chapter 41
"They are virgin sacrifices." The caller laughed. "Tell me, do you think 
they are really virgins? Will the little lambs squeal when they die? 
Sacrifici vergini nell' altare di scienza."
Chapter 50
IL PROCESO GALILEANO
Chapter 52
Langdon and Vittoria were stuck.
"You're sure Diagramma is in here?" Vittoria asked.
"Positive. It's a confirmed listing in both the Uficcio della Propaganda 
delle Fede-"
Chapter 54
Inside Archive Vault 10 Robert Langdon recited Italian numbers as he scanned 
the calligraphy before him. Mille . . . centi . . . uno, duo, tre . . . 
cincuanta. I need a numerical reference! Anything, damnit!
Chapter 55
"Attento!" Vittoria exclaimed, jumping back. "Watch it with-"
"Non sportarti!" the guard snapped, cocking the weapon.
"Soldato!" a voice commanded from across the courtyard
... That's all so far but I'm only two-fifths of the way through. I'm dying 
to find out how Langdon and Vittoria will save the Vatican from antimatter.
Chris Pain 

 "Non sportarti!" the guard snapped, cocking the weapon.
I think that one's my favourite...
-- 
Mary

Seems to me like someone's been using "Google translation tools" pretty
heavily - and making lots of transcription errors too :)
PF

 heavily - and making lots of transcription errors too :)
No, even machine translation software doesn't invent non-existent words.
I should think it was perpetrated by a 25th-generation Italian American.
-- 
Mary

to find out how Langdon and Vittoria will save the Vatican from antimatter.
ROTFL.
So far my worst buy in the books compartment has been "Celestine's Prophecy"
[1].
I guess you beat me.
cheers,
Peltio
[1] I gave that away before finishing it.

 but I fancy that life is too short to be spent reading that stuff.
How do you manage to be right so often , FB ? I was seduced into reading 
'The Da Vinci Code' to see what all the fuss was about , and it is indeed , 
in the current vernacular , 'a load of b*ll*cks' . I don't just mean the 
story-line ; stylistically and structurally , it reads like the work of an 
ungifted if assiduous student who's just got through  a creative writing 
course .
Mike

 wrote in message
news:3eaa39F...@individual.net...

I read it just to see how often Opus Dei was mentioned.  :.>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 Moreover, I'm a slow reader, so life is definitely too short to etc. etc.
I'm a slow reader too (I haven't finish reading The Lord Of The Rings yet...
actually I stopped reading exactly last year because after six months of
Elves, Hobbits and everything I got tired and I've left The Return of The
King to read who knows when).
 [... mi sa che l'ultima frase che ho scritto in inglese non è proprio
corretta...]
Anyway, I've nearly finished 1984 by Orwell, that is definetely shorter than
the Lord Of the Rings and perhaps more enjoyable, although I liked Animal
Farm the most.
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio
-- 
visita il mio sito: (
http://members.xoom.it/srw
)
_____________________________________
"La maggior parte degli atei sono soltanto dei bigotti ribelli." (Antoine de
Rivarol)

 How do you manage to be right so often , FB ?
I have a good scriptwriter.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
"Hey, Mr. Gilmore. Best wish... Congrat... Nice suit!"
(Gilmore Girls - 513)

 King to read who knows when).
It's a wonderful book.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
"Melissa [P.] spazzola Thomas Fazi"
(notizia apparsa su it.cultura.libri)

 It's a wonderful book.
Yes, but it takes me at least 6-7 months to read it.
Anyway, sooner or later I'll finish it.
:-))


 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:H%ufe.1349789$35.50...@news4.tin.it...

I'm with you. Can't understand it either, except for the fact that most
people DO read rubbish by the tons. :)
And I DID read the book and so I can give you an educated opinion on the
very very bad Italian on it. Can it be that they couldn't find an
authoritative source to correct it? Or they never tried to.
That kind of exemplifies the preparation that went into the bad piece of
literature that it is.
:|

 cincuanta. I need a numerical reference! Anything, damnit!
 
It looks like somebody is confusing italian with spanish..
(perfetto/perfecto, provare/probar, processo/proceso, cinquanta/cincuenta,
no double consonants except ll  etc., the gerund instead of the infinitive
after an imperative..) Somebody looking for a job as editor should contact
HR at Brown's publisher..
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
Yo me riquerdo l'ultima noche a Barcellona l'ultimo beso dato alla
estazione el pueblo che mira senza una rahone los nostros cuerpos..

Farm the most.
"definitely" that's all that's wrong here. I hope you don't mind me
correcting you. I appreciate it when you do the same for me when I
write in Italian.


But you're not always right , I'm relieved to see.
Mike 

 Farm the most.
Orwell's a much better writer than Tolkien , and he certainly has things to 
say which can engage the adult mind ; both the books you mention (though 
outside what you might call the main English tradition) are justifiably seen 
as modern classics . 

 to say which can engage the adult mind;
Mm. This is one of those "If it has wizards it must be rubbish" barbs,
is it?

 creatures with silly names , and ... what is it all for ?
I can't really see your point here... fairies and wizards, so what? 
Consider them metaphors if you find them silly (btw, there actually are 
no fairies in Tolkien's Middle Earth... while there are a lot of 
creatures with silly names, that's right)
-- 
Laz - [
http://www.dimensionedelta.net
]
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and 
they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that 
had all those people on it. Damn."

 write in Italian.
Ok then.


 creatures with silly names, that's right)
Also, I wouldn't underestimate the story in itself.
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
Domanda: "Era il figlio di Iside e Osiride".
Risposta: "Thor".
(quiz televisivo)


Scrivevi: definetely, l'ortografia giusta č "definitely" :)

Scrivevi: definetely, l'ortografia giusta č "definitely" :)
Is there a more idiomatic way in Italian to say "the correct spelling
is.." ?

 C'mon, dude! Pack up and leeve!
Si scrive "leave". :)
Sebastiano


One of the problems I have with the preoccupation of many people with
fantasy writing is that most of the people I know who read this genre
are unfamiliar with the much of the literature of the past two
centuries, and have no intention of reading authors such as of
Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Kafka, Steinbeck, Conrad, Camus, Sartre, Boll,
etc., unless they are required reading in the schools.
In the case of Tolkien, Terry Pratchett (a "writer of children's
stories") has said: "If you don't believe that Tolkien is the greatest
writer there ever was when you are 13 years old there is something
wrong with you. If you still believe that when you are 53 there really
is something wrong with you".
Many people believe that Tolkien first devised the language for his
stories, and then wrote the stories around the language he had
invented.
Some might even equate reading Tolkien to the study of Esperanto.
Joe from Massachusetts

 is something wrong with you".
I simply can't believe it. It's the fourth or fifth expression that Terry
Pratchett has stolen to someone else... And I know without having read any
of his books... Churchill said something along the lines of "if you aren't
a communist (or a labourist) when you are 25, you have no heart; if you are
not a tory when you are 35, you have no brain". I cannot stand that Terry
Pratchett. Has he no dignity?? Ca he not refrain from copying...?
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
Una volta ho comprato un salmone all'Ikea.
Sono arrivato a casa.
Era da montare.
(citato da Alessandro "Il Patriarca" Valli su
it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)


What did you expect from a "writer of children's stories"?   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts


wrote:

Thanks! 
BTW: Is the literal translation "one writes it (this way)" or is it
"it is written (this way)"? 

 Pratchett. Has he no dignity?? Ca he not refrain from copying...?
I think he credited his audience with knowing this was a reference
to a well-known quote, in much the same way that people
who say "To (something) one (something) may be regarded
as misfortune. To (something) two smacks of carelessness."
aren't trying to pass this off as their own work: they
want to be seen to be almost quoting something famous.

 Scrivevi: definetely, l'ortografia giusta č "definitely" :)
Aaah, non ci avevo fatto caso.
Grazie.


 "it is written (this way)"?
A can of worms... You have no idea!
Bye, FB
-- 
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

Pratchett. Has he no dignity?? Ca he not refrain from copying...?
He likes to quote, it's something like a joke or a game with his
readers, i.e. catch the quote :-)
Read the APF if you want more references and other odd things from
Pterry books 
http://www.ie.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html
'bye :-)

On Wed, 11 May 2005 16:53:21 GMT, jonny wrote:

I'd say "la grafia corretta č", because "ortografia" means "correct
spelling". You cannot say "l'ortografia č", though, as far as I know.
Bye, FB


Signore degli Anelli a "chissà quando".
I see now, sorry, it was this line that I didn't understand very well:
"and I've left The Return of The King to read who knows when" 
I didn't connected with the "I've left" meaning (more my fault)
I would perhaps word what you said like this:
I've left the reading of 'The Return of the King' until who knows
when.

A can of worms... You have no idea!
Then perhaps it's best I don't know. I get confused enough as it is :)

spelling". You cannot say "l'ortografia č", though, as far as I know.
Thanks, I learnt "l'ortografia giusta" from Mary. I did a google
search and realised that it wasn't that common. I'd like to learn the
more common ways of saying things in Italian first, and then perhaps
be a bit more adventurous.

when.
I myself would say something like:
"I don't know when I'll get around to reading The Return of the King".


 Sorry again - I did say 'practically' rather than 'linguistically' , but I 
should have added 'faccia sorridente' . What I meant to convey was explained 
by the rest of my post .
Mike 

 wrote in message 
news:428185fe$0$22497$7b0f...@mistral.news.newnet.co.uk...

Well , that's three times you've implied that I've dismissed all fantasy (or 
all S-F , or anything with wizards in) - perhaps you're confusing me with 
someone you met at university , but I never said anything which wasn't 
specific to Tolkien .
Generalising about a whole genre is pointless - some 'magical realism' is 
good , and some is extremely irritating ; some novels about middle-class 
people having , or almost having , affairs are wholly gripping , and some 
rival Tolkien in tediousness . As for beings and happenings 
not-of-this-world , I'm not in general opposed to them at all  - Ovid's 
'Metamorphoses' is crammed with them , and it's a wonderful book .
I won't tempt fate by saying that I didn't give a full-scale critique of 
'LotR' because to do so  'were' (in Johnson's words) 'to waste criticism 
upon unresisting imbecility' , but obviously this isn't the place for such 
an enterprise - I simply invited people to convince me that it isn't 
pointless . No-one can say in a sentence or two what 'a novel' is (though 
I'm surprised that my suggestion  that anyone writing literature for adults 
should have 'things to say which can engage the adult mind' should seem at 
all contentious) ; DHL's 'The novel is the one bright book of life' won't 
persuade anyone out of context (though even on its own it must make you 
start wondering about 'LotR') ; as for 'the human condition' , I agree that 
it's one of those phrases (like 'saving the planet') which have you reaching 
for your gun , but of course you know what the bleating guy meant - it's not 
ridiculous to suppose that books which in a thousand ways offer a little 
insight into , a new perspective on , the 'changing rainbow of our living 
relationships' , which reveal some of the possibilities of life , might be 
of particular interest and value to us .
  If discussing the value of literature is a long-haul job , trying to 
justify that of music is next to impossible ; for me (not a great fan of 
Wagner though - as Woody Allen said , 'I can't listen to that much Wagner. I 
start getting the urge to conquer Poland' ) music is the ultimate art - 
'Where words fail , music speaks.'
Mike 

 wrote in message
news:3Enge.1851$795....@twister1.libero.it...

I agree with Jonny that "it" is required here.
Joe from Massachusetts

 value to us .
He never said what he meant, or why SF was _necessarily_ not about this.
I'm not even sure I agree about "particular interest and value". I
happen to like e.g. Hal Clement's books, which are often just exercises 
in constructing extreme environments. Or, say, "A Fire Upon the Deep"
by Vernor Vinge, for the alien "tines". My favourite recent book,
"The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" is not SF,
has been a commercial success, and has won awards. I don't know
if it's "literature" or not. Is it about the human condition?
I guess it may be. But what most people like about it is the
protagonist's unusual nature, I'm sure.

 "it is written (this way)"?
Worms, worms, worms everywhere! :)
Let's say both. 
"si dice che tu sia ricco"	"they say you're rich"
"loro dicono di no"		"they say no"
You use "they" in both phrases, when you actually mean "they" (a bunch of
people you were talking about) and when you mean "people". We use the
impersonal form when we're talking in general terms.
But that's really a can of slimy worms.
In quel posto *si* mangia bene.
Questa parola *si* scrive cosě.
Dalle mie parti *si* dice cosě.
Stasera *si* va a ballare.
And so on. General speaking. The last sentence means "stasera andiamo a
ballare". The phrases "cosa facciamo stasera?" and "cosa si fa stasera?"
share the same meaning.
Sebastiano

 Pratchett. Has he no dignity?? Ca he not refrain from copying...?
He quotes. I think you should try one of his books, each one is a journey
into wyrd words, a journey full of mispelledd pitts, pitch black moth-eaten
wossnames and the sheer octarine light of buzzy not-so-magicall fields. You
just need a mapp, the Luggage (one leg short of a football match), and a
gold card with letters engraved on it, "thou shald not use the word
'monkey'". Oook.
Sebastiano

 internatonal bestseller.
Hi, I've also just subscribed to this group and sort of wanted to post the 
same question. I've read the book out of pure curiosity, to see for myself 
what the fuss was all about. (One of Shakespeare's plays comes to my mind 
;))
As you said, the Italian in it is... hilarious! Perhaps just what the book 
deserves. It tells me mch about the editor, and perhaps the author himself.
I 

 Pratchett. Has he no dignity?? Ca he not refrain from copying...?
TP books are a bit like episodes of "The Simpsons". They are chock
full of references to other things, and part of the fun is trying
to spot them.
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 to spot them.
He, too, must enjoy making money with little effort.
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 I
Hi I,
Welcome! (if I can say that having only just arrived here myself)
I still haven't finished A&D; I'm stuck on page 200 and something. I read 
the DV Code a few weeks ago and actually quite enjoyed it. I found it a 
little more plausible than this idea of someone wanting to blow up the 
entire Vatican with antimatter.
Did you finish it? If so, does the awful Italian coninue all way through?
Chris 

 ;))
Maybe I'm being thick but which Shakespeare play is that?

 Thanks, I learnt "l'ortografia giusta" from Mary. 
Oops, sorry!
-- 
Mary


I agree.
However, if you need a phrase to translate "chissà quando", you can
always use "goodness knows when".
-- 
Mary

 Maybe I'm being thick but which Shakespeare play is that?
Oh, no, it's just me... ;)
Much ado about nothing :))
I 

 Chris
I read the DV Code in Italian and sort of enjoyed it in the sense that I 
imagined it would make a good hollywood movie. It's simply not the kind of 
thing I like reading. Anyway, I decided to read A&D since everybody was 
talking about it. Mistake. I read it in English because I always prefer 
reading the original if I can. I bet the Italian translation is much better. 
The awful Italian almost put me off reading it all together. And yes, it 
continues all the way through.
I totally agree with you that DV Code was more plausible, A&D is simply too 
much. And then, after a while, everything becomes too predictable.
Tell me what you think after you finish it.
I 

 talking about it.
Does this work for you? It doesn't work with me at all...
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
"It sounds appalling!"
"Interesting and appalling. The others just sound appalling!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

 [...]
Sorry... did I miss something?
I 



So many people get to read a book because everybody is reading it (this
being a bad sign more often than not), and what can you know about life if
you don't follow suit. 
Bye, FB
-- 
"Golden orb... The golden orb... The golden orb..."


 you don't follow suit.
Oh yes, I totally agree. But as I said, I don't usually do that. And after 
the Dan Brown experience, I doubt I'll be doing the same mistake any time 
soon.
As for life, it's a mystery anyway ;))
I 

 want to be seen to be almost quoting something famous.
Do a Google search with keys:
misfortune "looks like carelessness" -parent
(Sorry about "smacks of" in my earlier message)



No need to apologise Mary, it isn't wrong after all.