Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Congiuntivo al posto del condizionale

"She resigned herself at first to all the misery of her situation; *and
happy had it been* if she had not lived to overcome those regrets which the
remembrance of me occasioned".
Sbaglio o questo congiuntivo sta, invece, per un condizionale ("and happy
would it have been...")? "E felice/bello/boh sarebbe stato se lei non
avesse vissuto...". 
Non pensavo che fosse ancora in uso nell'Ottocento (d'altronde, l'unico
esempio che mi viene in mente č "... were an all-eating shame and
thriftless praise", quindi non faccio testo). 
Forse č una specie di frase fatta "aggettivo had it been if...". Se č cosě,
č possibile usarla ancora oggi in letteratura, seppure con moltissima
parsimonia?
Ciao, FB

 avesse vissuto...".
Si, ma la frase originale non ha senso!
Zz

 Si, ma la frase originale non ha senso!
Ora telefono a Jane e glielo dico. (faccina sorridente)
Ciao, FB

 Ora telefono a Jane e glielo dico. (faccina sorridente)
ROFL
I think you might have trouble getting hold of her! I hear she is
ex-directory these days.
It is funny to read something in a certain literary style taken completely
out of context. No prizes for simple English here. I totally get what is
meant, but it makes my head spin to concentrate on the exact wording! LOL
I'll go take a lie down!
Zz

Zz
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I have found this link to the whole TEXT (free download), and many others
besides:
http://www.cyberbooks.it/cyberbooks/testi_inglese/s/sense_and_sensibility.zip
I hope it's useful.
I was wondering, which books in Italian would you recommend to me? I have
read a few of the more obvious choices (The Divine Comedy, Lo Hobbit, Gianni
Rodari (!), Italo Calvino....)
Zz

 Rodari (!), Italo Calvino....)
"Lo Hobbit"??? :-)
Please read anything by Dino Buzzati. Puoi cominciare da Il deserto dei
Tartari. Io vorrei tanto saper scrivere in*quell'*italiano.
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

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Uhh, e hai presente i Racconti? 
In particolare quello intitolato "I sette piani" ?
Che genio!
-- 
Maria Luisa C - 24/03/04 15.29.55, here.
please, point out my English errors!

 Rodari (!), 
Le "Favole al telefono"? Fanno parte della mia infanzia!
If you managed to read those books, I think you might like:
1) Agatha Christie, if you fancy the genre. Dame Agatha is one of the most
read authors by those who are learning a foreign language. 
But I suppose you're referring to Italian books written by Italian authors.
2) Leopardi is essential if you like poetry. (if you feel depressed, you
want to read only the first part of his poems!). Or il "Canzoniere"; if you
managed to read the "Divina Commedia", you should be able to read this as
well (anyway, it is not <<'na passeggiata de salute>> *, in my estimation).
3) Pirandello; I'm pretty confident you'd like "Il fu Mattia Pascal". It's
easy to understand, the plot is fascinating and there are some comic
characters and situations, too.
4) Perhaps "Gli indifferenti" (by Moravia). It is not everybody that
appreciates it, but I have (are you saying "So what?!"?). It's easy to
understand, acid just a tad, but agreeable.
5) "I Promessi sposi" by Manzoni. It is a classic; I daresay everybody read
it at school.
6) "Il nome della rosa", if you want really to try your patience. Or even
"Il pendolo di Foucault" (which I haven't read); you could complete it with
a flame recently appeared on this newsgroup, which I'm sure you'll find
indispensable.
7) Sto pensando a un autore che possa essere da esempio sotto l'aspetto
della lingua e dello stile, ma non mi viene in mente niente.
* so easy
Should you not like them, it's Enrico's fault. (Why? Because).
Bye, FB
-- 
Corrections are welcome.

 In particolare quello intitolato "I sette piani" ?
Sммм, quello da cui и tratto "Il fischio al naso" di Tognazzi!
Che meraviglia, mi viene da piangere, vorrei avere il tempo, here and now,
di rileggere tutto e gustare tutti i pezzi di "nera" che ancora non ho
letto!
Sigh, sigh.
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

Tartari. Io vorrei tanto saper scrivere in*quell'*italiano.
Aggiungo qualche distensiva lettura di Stefano Benni, our Pratchett.
;)
Sebastiano
-- 
No wonder people say "gesundheit" when you say "Tchaikovsky".

C'è anche Pirandello, e Silone; il primo libro che ho letto in italiano
era Fontamara.
-- 
Mary

 era Fontamara.
Anybody suggested Italo Calvino?
-- 
Nuovo indirizzo nel Reply-to


That already belongs to Zz's "obvious choices".
Mm

 Che genio!
Già.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

 Hobbit, Gianni Rodari (!), Italo Calvino....)
Ti consiglio anche Baricco, oltre a quello che ti hanno consigliato gli altri.
Ha scritto vari libri, e tutti molto diversi tra loro.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

 avesse vissuto...".
La frase è fuori contesto e dunque è difficile capirla, ma il senso è
abbastanza chiaro quando si legge la frase nel contesto originale. Direi che
hai ragione, uno scrittore moderno probabilmente userebbe la condizionale
(ma penso che la frase sia ancora contorta).

 That already belongs to Zz's "obvious choices".
Oops! :)


 Anybody suggested Italo Calvino?
I once began "Il visconte dimezzato", but couldn't help falling asleep.
Maybe I was too young. 
Has anyone read the "Lezioni americane"? I haven't yet.
Bye, FB

 (ma penso che la frase sia ancora contorta).
Dici?
Ciao, FB

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I suppose my Topolino magazines are too simple but I like them :-).
As for Kafka, I haven't even opened it yet, still shrink wrapped.
-- 
              O      __
      ___   /\     / / O  
     /__ \   | \   /  |
    O  /  \ /   \./   |       Loki
        |________ |
 

 Dici?
Sì, com'è scritto sopra.

 Dici?
A poetic licence?


 Oops! :)
LOL. I was thinking of The Divine Comedy as perhaps the most obvious really,
but very difficult to start with. I bought it in Turin when everything was
new to me!

 LOL. I was thinking of The Divine Comedy 
You Everest climber! :)
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 Should you not like them, it's Enrico's fault. (Why? Because).
He said that it would be yours, as when push comes to shove, it is always
you!
:)

 You Everest climber! :)
Did I actually imply I had made it past base camp?
:)
Perhaps I should rephrase: I have read (at least the first few pages of and
selected excerpts, and/or have purchased with this in mind, and/or have
started but am yet to complete, and (miraculously) in some instances
actually have read from cover to cover on at least one occasion) a few...
What do you think?

 Planning To Read For Ages...
And they keep peering at you from their shelves, making you feel a bit
guilty :))
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 it's Enrico's fault. (Why? Because).
"I'm  rubber, you're glue!"  ^___^
[No idea of how that would translate in Italian]
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Zz | it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
in <news:u8y8c.33$v36.20@newsfe1-win>
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The Divine Comedy is "toughissima"!
It's very tough for most Italians too. 
Not just the poetic Duecento language. There is a hell of allegories
scattered everywhere. A heavenly reading could turn out to be a
purgatory for you ;)
Nevertheless, The Divine Comedy can be pleasant even if you don't get
all the symbols, as it happens for good verses. So, if you have
selected excerpts of it, and you manage to understand some, why not
try?  In the worst case, you can always get back to base camp :) 


 A poetic licence?
I think the sentence is not complex, but I can see it is considered such
nowadays, as English is getting ever simpler, as for the syntax,
unfortunately.
Bye, FB

 But is it enjoyable to read?
It depends. An Italian may find it more enjoyable than you might, perhaps,
because "I Promessi sposi" is still an example of great Italian, and it is
an Italian story, even Lombard, in some way (but this doesn't prevent its
being felt equally strong by everyone). Almost everybody, I daresay, has in
mind a few quotes from that book: "Questo matrimonio non s'ha da fare", to
begin with, and "Quel ramo del lago di Como...", "Addio monti, sorgenti
dall'acque..." etc.
Bye, FB

 It depends. An Italian may find it more enjoyable than you might, perhaps,
Some Italians hate it because they had it as compulsory reading at
school :)
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 dall'acque..." etc.
Has it been made into a film or play?

Has it been made into a film or play?
Thousands of times, I guess. The plot is "Young handsome and pennyless guy
wanna get laid by a sexy gal over which a rich fat bastard has already laid
his eyes. He will eventually succeed". There's a movie of this kind every
other evening, on TV.
cheers,
Peltio
mmm... "over which... laid..." A bell is ringing. But the dictionary is
soooooo far away from me (more than three feet).

 I think the sentence is not complex
Ti posso correggere?
Normalmente si direbbe "I don't think the sentence is complex".
-- 
Mary

 Normalmente si direbbe "I don't think the sentence is complex".
Se ben ricordo, la mia dovrebbe suonare più formale. O è semplicemente poco
idiomatica?
Ciao, FB

 Has it been made into a film or play?
A short cut? (witty face) I think the most famous if by Zeffirelli (Dario
Fo should be "il dottor Azzeccagarbugli", and Alberto Sordi should be
there, as well), which I haven't seen yet.
More quotations from the novel:
"e intanto aveva sentito quell'altro signore rider forte, e don Rodrigo
dire: scommettiamo... che il Milan vince scudetto, Champions League e
l'Inter non vince nemmeno l'anno prossimo? Sicché l'altro rispose: Don
Rodrigo, io non scommetto, giacché col solito culo che ha lei non v'è
niente da fare. Eh poi, l'Inter, per quello non può nulla neanche la
Provvidenza manzoniana."
"Come parli, Zz?!"
"Zz, chi era costui?"
"Ma se in vece fossimo riusciti ad annoiarvi, credete che è tutta colpa di
Enrico"
Dall'introduzione:
"L'Historia si può veramente deffinire una palla colossale"
Ciao, FB

 Zz
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I have a copy beside my bed... somewhere to put my cup of tea in the
morning!

 "L'Historia si può veramente deffinire una palla colossale"
Are you going to give me a serialisation of the novel?
Zz
http://groups.msn.com/tefl

 Are you going to give me a serialisation of the novel?
Why not?
Bye, FB

 Why not?
It might be more fun to do our own spoof of it. Although I haven't read it,
I do know the story of Heidi and the goat-herd! Just change a mountain here
and a lake there, and Bob's your uncle. Or not.
Zz (pronounced "tsuh")

 It might be more fun to do our own spoof of it.
I think so, as well. Ah, you might want to see the spoof by Marchesini,
Lopez e Solenghi, definitely worth-seeing! Obviously you'd appreciate it
far more if you read the book before.
Bye, FB