Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Had there been

Leggendo un romanzo di Thomas Hardy mi domando perchè l' autore abbia
utilizzato la forma "had there been" quando non c' era alcuna
interrogazione.La frase è la seguente:
"The marriage being by license there were only a dozen or so of people
in the church; had there been a thousand they would have produced no
more effect upon her."
Perchè non mettere "there had been ..." ?
Di certo c' è qualcosa che mi sfugge. 
Ciao, Daisy

 Perchč non mettere "there had been ..." ?
Cosě come č significa: "se anche ce ne fossero stati un migliaio..."
Se metti "there had been a thousand" il significato cambia, oltre a non 
legarsi piů con la parte successiva. "Ce n'erano un migliaio..." e poi?
saluti,
Peltio
Had he more time, he would try to fetch his grammar book to show that 
the abovementioned form is equivalent to "if there had been"
-- 
Invalid address in reply-to. Crafty demunging required to mail me.
(Hint: use peltio at despammed dot com)

 more effect upon her."
Fermo restando quanto sopra, io tradurrei la frase nel seguente modo:
"Trattandosi di un matrimonio ************* in chiesa erano presenti si 
e no solo una dozzina di persone; fossero anche state mille non 
avrebbero potuto farle un'effetto maggiore."
saluti,
Peltio
che cosa è un matrimonio by license? Per procura?


 un'effetto
Alla malora.


 wrote in message
news:1139158352.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Leggendo un romanzo di Thomas Hardy mi domando perchč l' autore abbia
utilizzato la forma "had there been" quando non c' era alcuna
interrogazione.La frase č la seguente:
"The marriage being by license there were only a dozen or so of people
in the church; had there been a thousand they would have produced no
more effect upon her."
Perchč non mettere "there had been ..." ?
"Had there been" = "If there had been"
"Had I known that yesterday was her birthday, I would have brought her
flowers".
Joe from Massachusetts

Ora è molto più chiaro. Grazie. Per curiosità qual è il tuo libro
di grammatica inglese?Perchè sul mio non c' è nessun accenno su
questa forma. 
Ciao, Daisy

Dal momento che la sposa era stata incriminata per omicidio, "by
license" dovrebbe essere  una sorta di permesso, non riesco a trovare
un termine più adatto. 
Ciao, Daisy

 wrote in message
news:1139159814....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Dal momento che la sposa era stata incriminata per omicidio, "by
license" dovrebbe essere  una sorta di permesso, non riesco a trovare
un termine più adatto.
"Before 1837, most English marriages took place in the parish church,
following the publication of banns (the announcement in church on
three successive Sundays), or by license.......".
http://www.mcallen.lib.tx.us/orgs/genealog/pb0204.htm
"Members of the upper classes often preferred marriage by license,
considering it more prestigious. Marriage by license indicated that
they could afford the fee and enabled them to avoid being lumped with
common folk in the weekly announcements of intended marriages. When
people of modest means married by license, time was often a factor.
Banns were usually required to be announced at several successive
Sabbath-day services, which presented problems in rural churches
served by itinerant clergy who did not visit them on a weekly basis".
http://www.daddezio.com/favorites/marriage-records.html
"PHILIPS: July 6th, married THOMAS PAGE & ELIZABETH PRICE by license,
1687. Here are a great many by publication of banns, and some by
License; we still do it in the same manner, but more perfectly".
http://www.exclassics.com/newgate/ng654.htm
Joe from Massachusetts

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:1139158352.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


perché significa "ce ne fossero state un migliaio..." cioè "se ce ne fossero 
state un migliaio", credo che omettendo "if" la costruzione had there been 
sia obbligatoria.
Cla. 

A quanto pare è così. Grazie per l' illuminazione. 
Ciao, Daisy

 Di certo c' č qualcosa che mi sfugge. 
"Had there been" ==> "If there had been"
"Had I known" ==> "If I had known"
"Were I to write about it" ==> "If I were to write about it"
It sounds somewhat formal.
Bye, FB
-- 
«"Plano su di lei come un paradiseo imbottito di Taurus... Faccio guizzare
la lingua come un pitone ubriaco". Prendo questo libro, lo butto nel
cestino.»
(Recensione di Antonio D'Orrico sul Corriere della Sera Magazine)

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:1139158352.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Leggendo un romanzo di Thomas Hardy mi domando perchč l' autore abbia
utilizzato la forma "had there been" quando non c' era alcuna
interrogazione.La frase č la seguente:
"The marriage being by license there were only a dozen or so of people
in the church; had there been a thousand they would have produced no
more effect upon her."
Perchč non mettere "there had been ..." ?
Di certo c' č qualcosa che mi sfugge.
Ciao, Daisy
Da quel che so io l'inversione nel discorso diretto viene usata per 
aggiungere enfasi alla frase.
"The marriage being by license there were only a dozen or so of people in 
the church; HAD THERE BEEN a thousand they would have produced no more 
effect upon her." IMHO lo scrittore vuole enfatizzare che alla tizia non 
gliene poteva importare di meno di quanta gente c'era.
Beh, insomma, io la vedo cosě... prova adare un'occhiata qua: 
http://esl.about.com/od/grammarstructures/a/g_emphasis.htm
, il terzo 
paragrafo parla proprio delle inversioni.
Ciao,
Michele


But not excessively so.
Sometimes a bit of formality is called for, especially in the written
language.
google + "had I known" = 577,000, "If i had known" = 712,000.
Joe from Massachusetts

 news:1139159814....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
[-]
This film version of the novel, directed by Roman Polanski, with the
abbreviated title "Tess", catapulted
Nastasya Kinsky into the public eye. I have not seen it for many
years, but I think you would like it, if you were not overly depressed
by the book.
http://imdb.com/title/tt0080009/
http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=49171
Joe from Massachusetts

Ahahah I'm not reading the whole book but only some chapters(my teacher
gave me some homework about it).However it's a bit heavy...I'd rather
watch the movie, even if I'm not depressed yet.
Ciao, Daisy

 Leggendo un romanzo di Thomas Hardy
BTW...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/bbc7/aod.shtml?bbc7/pairblueeyes_sun

 wrote in message
news:1139169170....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Dilettante!            :>)
(La stessa parola in italiano e in inglese, ma in inglese la pronuncia
è uguale al francese).
Joe from Massachusetts

 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/bbc7/aod.shtml?bbc7/pairblueeyes_sun
Ovvero, la riduzione rafiofonica di 'A pair of blue eyes'...
"The tragic story of Elfride Swancourt, caught between the love of
handsome, gentle Stephen Smith and the intellectually superior Henry
Knight, Stephen's mentor. Hardy was able to use this tale to shed
light on the struggle between the classes and sexes in the England of
that time."
http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=0140435298
Free text
http://www.online-literature.com/hardy/blue_eyes/

 Knight, Stephen's mentor.
Henry, an appropriate name for a wise and trusted guide and advisor!
:-)
-- 
Enrico C
* cut the ending "cut-togli.invalid" string when replying by email *

 wrote in message 
news:2rvFf.20861$oG.2074@dukeread09...

If you're on Joe's side of the pond , that is ; here in England we pronounce 
it ((very) approximately) in the Italian way !
Mike 

 wrote in message
news:44p2juF...@individual.net...

Maybe that's because we Americans assume that sophisticated foreign
words must be of French origin. We tend to avoid the pronunciation of
the final vowel if we can, except in the case of musical
terminology.That's why there are no dilettanti over here, and no
dilettantes over there.  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts