Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Re: If clause

 ?
Normale. Ne incontro anche io di frasi del genere. Non deve sembrare
nemmeno sgrammaticato.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 ?
Sě.
-- 
Mary

 Come suona una frase del genere? :)
A me suona malissimo. La versione con "If he hadn't spoken" suona
meglio ad almeno qualche americano di mia conoscenza.
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 ?
si, ma dipende, potrebbe essere anche "if he didn't speak I wouldn't even
notice that much"

 (si riferisce a un particolare che non avrebbe notato)
c'è una remota possibilità che la frase fosse in realtà
"If he didn't speak I wouldn't even notice that much"?
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 Sě.
Thanks!
-- 
Empty vessels make the most sound. - John Lydgate (c.1370-1451)

 meglio ad almeno qualche americano di mia conoscenza.
La versione corretta suona meglio anche a me, certo, ma non è raro sentire
la versione sgrammaticata (che, forse, non suona tanto male quanto
l'equivalente italiana). 
Mi pare che avessi già posto la questione dopo aver sentito "you would have
lost this house, if it weren't for me" (e non "if it hadn't been for me").
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

 Boh, a me suona strano. Forse chi parlava era straniero?
Si': amerregano. :)
E' normale qui.
-- 
I am Ketzl's stooge
Un-not my address if you wanna e-mail me.

 meglio ad almeno qualche americano di mia conoscenza.
A me suona meglio, ma noi pronunciamo cose del genere ogni giorno.
Scrivendo qualche testo, scriverei "If XX hadn't..."


 "If he didn't speak I wouldn't even notice that much"?
In realta' anche questa frase e' possibile, ma questa cambia il tempo:
"If he didn't speak, I wouldn't have noticed..." (Past tense; I nearly
missed seeing him.)
"If he didn't speak, I wouldn't even notice..." (Present; ongoing; he's
nearly invisible.)
Ma veramente la forma scritta preferita e' l'altra:
If he hadn't spoken...


 "If he didn't speak I wouldn't even notice that much"?
Nope! Non ci sono i sottotitoli per controllare, ma scandisce
chiaramente le parole e poi non avrebbe senso nel contesto (un
racconto).
E' in Starsky & Hutch, episodio "Death Notice", 1975 (1st Season)
-- 
Save money and money will save you. - Jamaican (on thrift)



Dici nel senso "se non parlasse" in generale, come ad esempio una
persona muta?
Ad ogni modo, la situazione nel telefilm era diversa: un personaggio
racconta quello che e` successo e dice che  quella persona gli aveva
rivolto la parola.
-- 
If you would live long, open your heart.- Bulgarian (on health and
wellness)

?
noi?  Io si', pero' non e' insolito sentire tali frasi.  But then again, I work
with a bunch of ESL teacher who say "it is I".
bye
ari 

 rivolto la parola.
se lo dice durante la narrazione (ovvero senza ragionare (magari con
un'altra persona) su quello che sta dicendo)
è quasi sicuro che si tratti del periodo ipotetico dell'impossibilità che
hai giustamente corretto.

 In realta' anche questa frase e' possibile, ma questa cambia il tempo:
Per l'appunto chiedevo. E ne cambia anche il significato, perché l'azione
diventa presente (che si sta compiendo mentre la frase viene pronunciata)
oppure continuata nel tempo piuttosto che avvenuta in un particolare
istante del passato
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Enrico C ha scritto:
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boh, vorrà dire che nell'americano parlato si usa dire così. D'altronde se
nei film in lingua italiana o doppiati si dovessero rispettare
rigorosamente i congiuntivi l'effetto di certe gag sarebbe totalmente
diverso.


 hai giustamente corretto.
Ok :)
-- 
He that cannot endure the bad will not live to see the good. - Jewish
Proverb

 "If he hadn't spoken I wouldn't even have  noticed that..."
Sě

 Non è un uso americano, non ha senso.
Au contraire, mon frère: it's very common spoken AmEng.



I would never say "If he didn't speak I wouldn't even have noticed
that much.
Perhaps "If he didn't speak I wouldn't even notice that much".
or
"If he hadn't spoken I wouldn't even have noticed that much".
Because something is spoken on TV doesn't automatically make it
correct English, whether it be British or American.
I always think of the non-existent word "desmentegato" (dialetto
veneto: desmentegar=to forget, desmentega=forgotten), often used on
Italian TV by actors portraying characters from the Veneto.
Or perhaps you think "desmentegato" is acceptable Italian/Veneto too,
because you heard it on TV?
Joe from Massachusetts

 Au contraire, mon frère: it's very common spoken AmEng.
I have to disagree about your characterizing it as 'common'. If you want to
talk about misuse in general, I would agree that some misused phrases are
common. This misuse, however, is the type that typically causes raised
eyebrows and should not be characterized to those learning English as common
usage. There may be some regions where bad habits have made it more
frequent, but I would not say that in America, in general, it is common.

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
Okay, I concede on this one, but I will continue to maintain that in modern
spoken AmEng far less attention is paid to the sequence of tenses as it
appears to be in Italian. What this means is that it is not uncommon to
hear someone use a sentence of that sort, without regard for the "proper"
usage. I will bet you a buck and a half that no eyebrows were raised in the
States when that episode aired.
In America, it ain't like that.
Now, I would never teach anyone to use "ain't" *unless* they were trying to
portray someone in casual conversation, say, a not-too-well-educated
Detective or store clerk or the guy next door.
I've always tried to make it clear that my views express my impressions of
"English as she is spoke" in the US, allowing that BrEng is significantly
different in many regards.
I've also always tried to make it clear that my intention is to show how
"the people" speak; not write, not propound, not extoll, not pontificate;
not the professors, the physicians, the orators, the politicians. I do
understand and appreciate the importance of learning rules, such as they
are, however, sticking to the rules of grammar all the time is what signals
a foreigner. While this sort of rigidity to rules doesn't raise eyebrows,
it does get noted, even if subconsciously.
I hope these views are received in the manner in which they're delivered: a
simple explanation of my opinion.


 usage. 
Don't worry, Tony, I am not going to use it anyway, it just sounds
wrong to me :)
The correct English form is actually similar to the Italian
consecutio: "Se non avesse parlato, non lo avrei neanche notato...".
A much more colloquial form is uttered at times, though:
"Se non parlava, non lo notavo neanche."
-- 
The truly rich are those who enjoy what they have. - Yiddish 

 because you heard it on TV?
BTW, "Starsky and Hutch" is set in LA 
Ho messo su il clip in mp3 (120 KB)
http://www.lillathedog.net/icling/clips/didntspeak.mp3
Che accento ha quello che dice la frase incriminata?
-- 
Nothing seems expensive on credit.- Czech (on indebtedness)

 simple explanation of my opinion.
I venture to pronounce you do write well, when you are motivated. I like
reading this sort of posts aloud.
- Jane? Do you think he could be a worthy successor? 
- I do not attempt to deny he could do very well. If he did'n't, I should
be very surprised. His pen has both skill and argument; his style is fluent
and amiable.
- I doubt not, say I.
- We could invite him to tea.
- How about tomorrow? 
- FB! It would be excessively aukward. We will let Sir Joey chuse.
- Very sensible as well as appropriate. Will you excuse me, darling, I am
unpardonable.
- You are not, my dear. Anyhow, we shall have to send him one of our
carriages.
- Jane, I do not consider it quite negligible to note that Sir Joey is from
Boston.
- Boston? 
- I am pretty sure of it. He lives in New York, in fact.
- New York is not really around the corner. 
- I should'n't worry, my dear. I am told he owns a flying carriage.
- A flying carriage... Remarkable, is it not.
- Another particular is perhaps noteworthy. He... has got a cat. 
- A cat?
- A fat, temperamental cat called Sir Ketzl. He always attends Sir Joey,
who asserts he could never live without his cat. I am not quite convinced
of that sentiment being mutual.
- Will there be any more, my dear? I should like to set to work, now.
- There will. Just a rather silly query... I was thinking... Sir Joey does
not feel at his ease where there are... balconies.
- That is rather unusual. I should think balconies are harmless.
- Not so his cat, between you and me.
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 reading this sort of posts aloud.
Yo, thanks, cuz, not just for noticing but also for sharing. I don't know
about being a successor, though; it seems a long shot. We're very
different, her and me. Tea? Really?
Well, thank you, sir, not only for your observation but for the sharing of
it. As regards the possibility of my becoming a successor, I could only
aspire to become as good and proficient a writer as Jane, however in a
modern context and format, as that is how I live, much unlike her. (Who is,
with all due respect, neither "modern" nor living. I'd be delighted to have
tea with you and Jane. :) 
-- 
The foregoing is my opinion, and my opinion alone. It is intended to
demonstrate modern American English -- spoken, for the most part; not
literary American English. Ergo, caveat lector. (No, not you, Hannibal)

 tea with you and Jane. :) 
Dear Sir Joey,
   Much to our regret, we are afraid our meeting will have to be postponed.
   It is most unfortunate that we suddenly recalled of a previous
engagement; moreover, Jane has got a chill. Between your lordship and me,
it must have been when she threw your letter into the lake at 3.00 a.m., in
which letter you described her as not "modern". "I am not exactly living,"
she admitted, "but I'm damn modern!, ain't I!?". Ambasciator non porta
pena.
Wrathfully yours,
Mrs Jane Austen (ecciששש), FB
Bye, FB
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 Bye, FB
ROTFLMAO!
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 because you heard it on TV?
I don't think it is acceptable, but we have to accept it ;)
If you hear Rambo speaking possibily while he's shooting one hundred
bullets a second out of his machine gun, I don't think you expect from him
to stumble on past perfect or subjunctive tenses, do you?



 I agree and I think I already expressed my opinion in an earlier post.
ari


It is difficult to tell. The man seems to have a very pronounced
lallation ("Tom Brokaw's disease"), which can disguise his accent. I
would say East Coast: New York, or possibly Philadelphia/Camden, maybe
even as far South as Baltimore, but I am not sure, because of the
lallation. His pronunciation of "look, worst, table, ordered, tell,
running, tail, serve," may be exaggerations of the Philadelphia/Camden
accent, which has some aspects resembling lallation inherent in it, or
it may be a congenital lallation. It seems too exaggerated to be
merely part of an accent.
Joe from Massachusetts

 merely part of an accent.
Thanks Joe for your analysis, you sound quite an expert on accents!
-- 
He that steals an egg will steal an ox. - George Herbert (1593-1633)


I am not an expert on accents, I just remember how my friends from
certain places speak.
If you draw a line from Philadelphia to Virginia, you will find that
along that line many characteristics of English as spoken in the US
two hundred years ago still remain in the speech of the locals.
Different characteristics remain in different places along that line.
For example, in Virginia, it is not uncommon to hear the "oot" and
"aboot" for "out" and "about" which we also hear from Canadians. In
Philadelphia, the name of the city is pronounced almost as a Cockney
would pronounce it, a mangling of the "l" sound into something which
sounds like a combinaton of "w", "l" and "r" (if such a thing is
possible).
Joe from Massachusetts

joscurtin | it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
in <news:8eEAc.3358$wD3.1092@lakeread03>

Listening to that guy, his strange "table", I swear I thought there
was something of a Cockneyish accent, but of course he is American, so
he couldn't be Cockney :)
-- 
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of which three quarters comes from processed food.   70,000 strokes
and heart attacks, over half of which are fatal, would be prevented if
the average salt  intake were reduced to six grams a day.

>>The Philadelphia L
The English language has two different pronunciations of -l, but we
never notice them because they don't make any difference in the
meaning of words. There's what's called The Bright L, very far forward
in the mouth; and The Dark L, very far backin the throat. Say the word
"feel," and your tongue ends up pressed against your front teeth. Say
"tool," and your tongue is just touched to your front teeth as an
afterthought - many Philadelphians never get their tongues up there at
all. Philadelphians like The Dark L - so dark it's almost like
clearing our throats. Some of us use The Dark L even at the beginning
of words - "love," for example, is said with such a deep gulp that it
sounds like"glove." Want to say that impossible Philly tongue-twister,
"Little Lulu lives in Little Italy?" Just practice pressing your
tongue against those front teeth. After a while you'll get the hang of
it. Then again, maybe not. ThePhilly tongue is mightier than the
will.>>>
http://www.citypaper.net/articles/081497/article008.shtml
Joe from Massachusetts

 
http://www.citypaper.net/articles/081497/article008.shtml
That's interesting...


 the "Bright L", not the "Dark L"?
I guess so, inasmuch as the bright L is the Italian L, and the dark L is
the L of "bull". I think the bright L is normally far more used in British
English. As the excerpt Joe has supplied says, in USA one may hear a dark L
in "love".
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 the L of "bull". I think the bright L is normally far more used in
British
In Philadelphia they use *only*  the "Dark L", where the tongue
*never* touches the teeth, producing an almost guttural sound. Try
saying "ellll" without moving the tongue, and you have some idea of
the sound. Or listen to the "Starsky and Hutch" clip that Enrico
mentions. It is not a sound which is normal to American English in
other regions.
Joe from Massachusetts

 the "Bright L", not the "Dark L"?
He means for you to press your tongue firmly against the teeth without
moving it, while trying to say the tongue-twister.
Joe from Massachusetts

 moving it, while trying to say the tongue-twister.
Thanks!
[after a while...]
Lllill@lulullvssnllttllltllllly
Done. I sounded quite funny though ;-)
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