Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Scambiato per francese

Parlando con degli inglesi, mi e` capitato che mi credessero francese.
Non avendo io un accento francese e nemmeno la erre moscia, mi viene
il dubbio se per gli inglesi il francese sia semplicemente la prima
lingua a cui pensano quando sentono qualcuno con un accento neolatino.


beato te.
io per tedesco, da un'americana


Me too. I found it both insulting and hilarious. :-)

 wrote:

French people speak English with a very distinct accent, same for
Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish, South African .. etc. There are
exceptions of course, but if you haven't got a French accent I don't
know why some English people think that you are.
Chatting with a French guy a while back, I asked him when English
people speak French can you tell that they're English? "as soon as
they open their mouths" was his answer. Is it the same when foreigners
speak Italian?, can you generally guess their identity?

can you generally guess their identity
"Can you generally guess their nationality" Is what I mean.

 speak Italian?, can you generally guess their identity?
Yes, at least for English and French people...
Andrea

 Me too. I found it both insulting and hilarious. :-)
Davvero strano. Come si fa a non distinguere tra una pronuncia
neolatina e una germanica? I tedeschi dicono "I haf" invece di "I
have" :)



Solo per la voce? 
Io pero` parlavo proprio di inglesi di Inghilterra, che forse sono
condizionati dalla vicinanza con la Francia. Immagino che i francesi
siano gli stranieri che si incontrano piu` spesso, almeno
nell'Inghilterra del Sud [dico immagino, non ho dati certi]. 
In inglese poi tutto cio` che ha origini straniere o insolite viene
detto French, no?  ;-)
French window, French dressing, French kiss, French leave...
Scherzo, ma forse c'e` qualcosa di vero...



Boh. A NY mi hanno dato del portoricano. E ho una carnagione
abbastanza chiara. E una deliziosa maestra delle elementari a
Riverside Park mi ha chiesto, in francese, se parlassi/fossi francese.
A lezione una ragazza italiana che ha vissuto in Irlanda e con la
quale non avevo ancora parlato in Italiano, mi credeva spagnolo.
Sebastiano

"Can you generally guess their nationality" Is what I mean.
Yes. German/Danish/Scandinavians, French,
Ukes/Americans/Canadians/Irish/Australians/New Zealanders, "East
Europeans", "Arabs", Spaniards, "Chinese/Japanese/Vietnamese/Other
"Far East" languages, and so on.
Per sentire le differenze tra un tedesco e un olandese, ci vuole un
po' di familiarità con il secondo, altrimenti vengono accomunati.
Ovviamente, mi riferisco alla sola voce, perché se oltre a sentire una
persona, la si vede, si capiscono molte altre cose.
Sebastiano

 po' di familiarità con il secondo, altrimenti vengono accomunati.
Gli olandesi parlano un po' con la bocca impastata, no?
Ciao, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 persona, la si vede, si capiscono molte altre cose.
A vista, si distinguono anche a molti metri di distanza :-))

Gli olandesi parlano un po' con la bocca impastata, no?
Non riesco ad immaginare un olandese che parla italiano, pur avendolo
sentito. Probabilmente, senza vederlo, lo penserei tedesco. Boh.
Sebastiano

 A vista, si distinguono anche a molti metri di distanza :-))
Per qualche motivo, anche gli statunitensi mi sembrano diversi,
nell'aspetto fisico, dagli italiani del nord. Perché?
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

A vista, si distinguono anche a molti metri di distanza :-))
Infatti. :)
Sebastiano

nell'aspetto fisico, dagli italiani del nord. Perché?
Boh, spesso li riconosco anch'io. Anche dal modo di vestire. :)
Sebastiano


wrote:

E *tipicamente suoniamo come questo:
"salvei, io sounou ingleisei" ;)
*Si può usare "stereotipicamente"? è una parola? 

*Si puň usare "stereotipicamente"? č una parola? 
Sě, č una parola. Ma non č comune. Non credo di averla mai usata in
vita mia.
Se mi dici la frase in cui vorresti usare "stereotipicamente" ti dico
come la direi io.
Sebastiano

 Scherzo, ma forse c'e` qualcosa di vero...
eheheheh probabile :)


wrote:

la stessa frase:
"E stereotipicamente suoniamo come questo"
"and stereotypically we sound like this"
ma non lo userň *per (*perché??) cosa hai detto, e anche perché ci
sono solo 92 *hits* per questa parola su google.
but I won't use it because what you've said, and also because there
are only 92 hits for this word on google.

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 13:17:28 GMT, jonny <j...@jj.jj> wrote:
but I won't use it because *of* what you've said.

sono solo 92 *hits* per questa parola su google.
"ma non lo userò per cosa hai detto/quello che hai detto, e anche
perché ci sono solo 92 siti contenenti questa parola su google.
Non mi viene come rendere hits.
Sebastiano



I love Dutch, but a lot of people think it's a goofy-sounding language.
It's a bit more gutteral than German in that the letter G is always
pronounced with varying degrees of gutterality (I just made up a word!), as
is the combination "ch" and in some dialects the Rs, as well. You have a
word like "voorgerecht" (entrée) which can come out sounding like
VOO-che-checht in some instances.
The intonation is very different from German, also.
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

The intonation is very different from German, also.
It's not that I do not recognize German from Dutch. I don't think I
would recognize if who was speaking were German or Dutch, if they were
speaking Italian.
Sebastiano

 Riverside Park mi ha chiesto, in francese, se parlassi/fossi francese.
Ci sono molti francesi sull'Upper West Side, presso Riverside Park.


 genere.
English and Dutch are very close (except for the pronunciation, which is
very different.) I'm told thin in Frisian, a dialect of Dutch, some
sentences are exactly the same in both languages. The only one I know of
is:
Good butter and good cheese is good English and good Fries.
(I can't attest to the spelling or the pronunciation in Frisian, but
they're said to be so similar that if a Frisian said this, I would
understand herm (hehheh)* immediately and shhe (hehhehheh)* me.)
(* See the thread: Interessante da Microsoft.)


 sempre. :)
Č facile distinguere tra i giapponesi e i cinesi quando parlano inglese.
L'accento č ben diverso.


L'accento č ben diverso.
Proverň a farci caso.
Sebastiano

 speaking Italian.
Capito.


 Parlando con degli inglesi, mi e` capitato che mi credessero francese.
Io a Londra venivo sempre "scambiato" per spagnolo, a volte greco.

 "olandese" non sarebbe corretto. Non ho mai approfondito la cosa.
Penso perché il neerlandese (o nederlandese) č parlato sia in Olanda sia in
Belgio (il fiammingo). E poi, particolare non trascurabile, neerlandese č
piů complicato da dire, fa scena, č innegabile.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 per niente vero, almeno per quanto ho visto io eh :)
Beh, anche molti italiani...

 Non mi viene come rendere hits.
"Occorrenza", per esempio. È un calco dall'inglese.


 Solo per la voce?
Temo per l'intonazione più che per la voce :-)

 Io a Londra venivo sempre "scambiato" per spagnolo, a volte greco.
Pero` di persona contano anche i tratti somatici :)

"Occorrenza", per esempio. Č un calco dall'inglese.
Sul serio? Ho fatto una ricerca su google e mi ha dato 223 occorrenze?
Cavolo, non lo sapevo.
Sebastiano

to learn some "Netherlandese".
There's no need, they all speak English, well they do at least in
Amsterdam. "Oranjeboom" was the only thing I learnt. It means "Orange
tree" it's a brand of beer ;-))


wrote:

Grazie.

Maghesdaiaddě?
Dimmi che cosa significa, via!



Let *me* guess:
Ma che stai a dire?
(Right, FB? Am I right? Huh? HUH?) :)


On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:30:22 GMT, jonny wrote:

In Rome dialect "ma che stai a di'" means "ma che stai dicendo", that is
"just what are you talking about?".
Bye, FB


 (Right, FB? Am I right? Huh? HUH?) :)
Not quite, I'm gla... afraid. (witty face) I'm not sure "Stare a fare
qualcosa" is correct Italian. It is a common structure in Rome dialect, I
think.
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

(Right, FB? Am I right? Huh? HUH?) :)
Joey, you've put the "kiss of death" on me. Ever since you
complimented me on my Italian, I haven't managed to write one, single,
correct sentence! :-))

>>>Maghesdaiaddě?
means what, then?


 correct sentence! :-))
Why, that last sentence was fine, it seems to me. Unless you meant to say
"I haven't managed to write one, single, correct sentence "in Italian."
8-D
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Anyway, I take it back. Your Italian is lousy.
So now you *have to* excel.


 Bye, FB
So I *was* right, essentially!


 Pero` di persona contano anche i tratti somatici :)
Vero, ma sei fai parte della razza caucasica e soprattutto sei
"mediterraneo" è comprensibile che uno non azzecchi al primo colpo!



I'm Italian-American; I "look Italian" as far as I know, and I've been
mistaken for Greek, Jewish, Brazilian, Colombian, Armenian, and even
German.


means what, then?
Letteralmente "ma che stai a dire", ma non è italiano corretto, ma
romanesco. Quindi significa "ma che stai addì" (mi perdonino i romani
per la grafia creativa). Credo che FB volesse solo far notare che non
è corretto in italiano. Ma è un'espressione che si usa in romanesco. E
molti la "mimano", scimmiottando il dialetto con un improbabile
pseudo-accento romano. :)
Un po' come "teribbile" (terribile, in Italiano), che viene detto da
molti, ovunque in Italia, in modo ironico.
WARNING PAROLACCE. :D
UOMO E DONNA AVVISATI...
... MEZZI SALVATI
FB: Non te la prendere con me, dopo. ;)
Pure "minchia" è un regionalismo romano che si è diffuso. Dalle mie
parti l'intercalare è "cazzo", ma i "minchia" si moltiplicano. In
Lombardia, almeno a Milano, si usa "figa" come intercalare. In
italiano sarebbe "fica", ma anche dalle mie parti si usa con la g,
anche se non lo usiamo come intercalare. Parola che usiamo in Veneto
con il significato di "figa" e che è nota ovunque in Italia è "mona".
In Veneto, oltre a questo significato, *un mona* (mona, come organo
genitale, è un nome femminile) è uno stupido. Mai sentito usare per le
donne. Si può dire ad un tipo "te si un mona" (sei uno stupido), ma ad
una donna "te si na mona" suonerebbe come "sei una vagina". Solo
"figa" può essere usato nel senso di "bella ragazza".
Ecco, ho fatto il mio turpiloquio giornaliero. E ho diffuso
informazioni sullo slang, cosa che adoro. :D
Di cosa stessimo parlando, non ne ho idea.
Sebastiano

German.
Ya one of ze Germans? ;)
Sebastiano

 So I *was* right, essentially!
Not quite, my fellow, not quite. I, was righter, anyway, no doubt.
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante č che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda


 Sebastiano
"turpiloquio" č una bella parola. Grazie.
(Ma non l'userň spesso.)




Schweinhund! Dummkopf! (Yes, I'm talking to myself again. :)


(Ma non l'userò spesso.)
Non la uso mai. :)
Sebastiano

Schweinhund! Dummkopf! (Yes, I'm talking to myself again. :)
You lost me. :)
Il mio tedesco si limita a "weltanschauung", "bahnhof", "Scheiße",
"Straße" (a München dissi ad una ragazza polacca che il mio ostello si
trovava in Scheiße Straße) e poco altro che non so scrivere. Ah,
ovviamente anche "wurst". E "bier". E "pretzel". E "senf". E "zimmer".
Ok. Dummkopf means jerk. Schweinhund or schweinehund means "swine".
Am I right?
Sebastiano



This might have been more fitting in an earlier thread about dogs... It
means literally "pig dog" and I gather it's rather an insult. "Dummkopf"
means literally "dumn head."


 "dumn head."
Sorry: "dumb head"


 Sorry: "dumb head"
So you admit English pronunciation's a mess! (smiling face)
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 Bye, FB
I never said otherwise; (agreeing face) on the contrary, it's the least
phonetic language I can think of. (Although I don't know Polish, and having
seen some of those words, I have no idea how they're pronounced. But that
doesn't mean it's not a phonetic language once you learn the rules.) 
Oh, and then there's Welsh... and Gaelic, I suppose, but these latter are
all related to English anyway, I think.
I would *hate* to have to learn English as a second language. :)


 I would *hate* to have to learn English as a second language. :)
I could learn it as a third language! Thank you, Joey!
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

I would *hate* to have to learn English as a second language. :)
The only thing I wouldn't like to learn is the pronunciation, as the
pronunciation of many English words doesn't follow "the rules", unlike
the Italian language, But! where I think the English Language must be
really easy to learn is with the verbs. The verb stem doesn't change
that much and we don't have all of this different pronouns, it's; I,
you (just one of them) him, her, us & they, and they're all  in one
place, and the words are spelt exactly the same when we're in
subjunctive mood.
 



Yes, it has its good points; verbs are relatively simple to conjugate, and
there aren't too many irregular ones, I guess.
Take a relatively simple sentence that a non-English
speaker ought to plough through without coughing, though; thought 
it would be easy did you? :)


it would be easy did you? :)
Yes, the pronunciation can be a bit awkward



Define "bit".


 The intonation is very different from German, also.
Don't blame if I tell you that, from what I studied at school, you should
say "the intonation is "also" very different from German" or "The intonation
is verhy different from German, too".
Am I wrong?       I bet so :-)))
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (
http://www.grisoft.com
).
Version: 6.0.733 / Virus Database: 487 - Release Date: 02/08/2004

Define "bit".
"a bit"= "slightly", a small amount.

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:49:42 GMT, jonny <j...@jj.jj> wrote:
 a small amount.
I should say "to a small degree" in this case.

 Am I wrong?       I bet so :-)))
Fortunately, English is not so strict as German.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:46:23 GMT, Enrico il Pentolaio wrote:

The placement of certain modifiers is not very strict in English. For
example, no one would consider any of the following sentences "wrong":
Also, the intonation is very different from German.
The intonation, also, is very different from German.
The intonation is very different, also, from German.
The intonation is also very different from German.
The intonation is very different from German, also.
Note that many of these have commas; also be aware that the meaning might
be slightly different, depending on the placement of "also", but in the
context in which the sentence was delivered that's of little significance.


 The intonation is very different from German, also.
I know there's "Too, the intonation...", but I understand it's rather
frowned upon.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Nasalization is just a part of life"
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 speak Italian?, can you generally guess their identity?
English speakers are particularly easy to spot when they speak Italian, as
it is nearly impossible for you to get rid of some features of your accent.
I know at least three British ladies who are married with Italian guys,
spent most of their lifes in Italy, where they raised their children and
made up their professional carreer, and whose Italian is fluent and with no
errors, indistinguishable from native Italian in writing, but still they
sound definitely "English" as soon as they utter a single word.
The same is true -- but to a much lesser degree -- for Frenchmen, Spaniards,
and Arabs: they can master Italian perfectly for what concerns grammar or
vocabulary, but often retain a distinguishing accent even after decades: not
as strong as English speakers' but however detectable after a short
conversation.
Speakers of Slavic languages often attain a perfect pronunciation but
sometimes retain some typical grammatical errors even after several years.
E.g., they often drop or insert definite articles in odd ways.
On average, German speakers are probably the best in learning Italian: I
encontered in my life lots of Germans who could speak the language
perfectly, to the point that no one suspected they were not Italian (not
even their name was a sufficient clue, as surnames of German origin are not
that uncommon in Italy, and first names are often the same in the two
languages, especially for women).
The only funny features in Germans' Italian is sometimes a funny
pronunciation of /r/ or an exhaggerated use the subjunctive mood, but such
features are not uncommon even for Italians.
--
Cingar
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 The placement of certain modifiers is not very strict in English.
okay ;-)
thank you !
-- 
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio
(per scrivermi in privato togli lo spazio fra "sira" e "214")
_____________________________________________________________
"Un classico è un libro che tutti vorrebbero aver letto, ma che nessuno
vuole leggere" (Mark Twain)
_____________________________________________________________
http://members.xoom.it/srw
( il mio concerto n°1, poi acquario, midi & karaoke, scout, gif, sfondi,
barzellette, ecc ecc)


 Parlando con degli inglesi, mi e` capitato che mi credessero francese.
A me non pare poi così sorprendente: un italiano e un francese che parlino
l'inglese molto bene ma non perfettamente possono avere un accento
abbastanza simile, soprattutto all'orecchio di chi non conosce le due
lingue.
A quel livello, hanno ormai perso quelle caratteristiche peculiari (come la
nasalizzazione francese o la "cantilena" italiana) che permette di
distinguerli; tolte queste cose plateali, rimangono molti fonemi che
italiani e francesi pronunciano in modo abbastanza simile.
A me, invece, cazzarola, mi scambiano sempre per tedesco e, a quanto vedo,
non sono l'unico. E questo no che non me lo spiego: il francese e
l'italiano, almeno, vengono entrambi dal latino, ma che c'entro io col
tedesco?
Il bello è che quando mi dicono così, per chissà quale strano cortocircuito
mentale, m'imparpaglio e per un po' mi viene fuori davvero con una specie di
accento tedesco: "Tschärman? No, vhy? Do I zound Tschärman to you?" M'è
capitato persino che una signora sul treno ci rimanesse male: continuava a
assicurarmi che lei, comunque, contro i tedeschi non aveva proprio niente...


 L'accento è ben diverso.
Which English sounds do they pronounce differently, for instance?

 tedesco?
Sei pallido, biondo e  con gli occhi azzurri? :)
 

 Sei pallido, biondo e con gli occhi azzurri? :)
Pallidissimo, castano chiaro e occhi verdi, in effetti.
Perņ sono alto un metro e un tappo e non metto i sandali con le calze, come
possono confondersi? :-)




It's more the cadence that varies, although the pronunciation also does.
Japanese speakers have a clipped cadence (quasi staccato); Chinese don't.
Also the intonation of a Japanese speaker is very even; a Chinese speaker
has more highs and lows in intonation.
There's a Japanese hotel on the next block, and I've started to notice
certain similarities in their physical appearences as well, different from
Chinese. It's very interesting to see a group of Japanese businessmen
congregated on the sidewalk, either greeting one another or taking leave. I
can always tell who the bosses or clients are, and who the workers or
salesmen are, by how deep they bow to one another.
However, two blocks in the other direction is "Little Korea" and I cannot
distinguish a Korean from a Chinese either by appearance or when they speak
English (although I probably could if they were speaking their native
language. Not that I know those languages; I know how they "sound" in
general.)


features are not uncommon even for Italians.
Well that's the exact opposite for me, though my Italian is at the
novice stage. I've tried to roll my R's with words like "burro" and I
think I sound stupid, it feels so unnatural.

 Chinese.
Yes, I noticed that. They dress differently too. Maybe that's because
the Japanese are wealthier than the Cinese, on average.
Here in Rome you can tell a Japanese from a Chinese in a very easy
way: the Chinese live and work here, the Japanese walk around the town
as tourists :)

 as tourists :)
<very politically incorrect>
Aaall the time, and they take photographs even of lavatories, hamburgers I
guess. Do you think they take a photograph of their photographs?
<very politically incorrect>
Si fa pe' schezzare.


 Bye, FB
You've reminded me of my very first visit to Rome. I was with one other
friend at the Foro Romano, and wanted a photo of the two of us there. A
Japanese tourist happened by, and I asked him if he would take the picture.
He said yes, and I began to explain, in great detail, how the camera
worked. (It was an SLR, before all the automatic stuff, and long before
digital cameras.) He listened very politely while I described at length how
the camera worked.
When I finished, I looked at him to see if he "got it" He was smiling at
me: obviously he had not been paying any attention to what I had been
saying.
Then, by way of explaining his behavior, he simply said, still smiling,
"I'm Japanese!" :)


 unnatural.
I tedeschi sono incapaci di pronunciare "quanto viene quel 
giornale?" e dicono "kvanto viene kvel ciornale?"
-- 
oggi no, domani sì

 still smiling, "I'm Japanese!" :)
They never say no, yes?
 
Maybe he *made* that camera. (was it a japanese model?)


 Maybe he *made* that camera. (was it a japanese model?)
Maybe, but even if he didn't make cameras, his humor wasn't lost on me, and
most likely someone in his family made cameras.


 destination, but he didn't want to contradict or embarrass her.
I don't get it. Again!
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

> destination, but he didn't want to contradict or embarrass her.
-- 


 (quellei statuei sonou moltou bellei)
Quest'ultima caratteristica (/o/ ed /e/ che diventano /ou/ ed /ei/) č molto
meno forte per gli americani. Non so da cosa dipenda, forse dalla loro
familiaritŕ con lo spagnolo?
Aggiungerei le /t/ e le /d/, che suonano alveolari (mentre in italiano sono
schiettamente dentali) e l'aspirazione delle /k/, /t/, /p/ iniziali.




Oh, thank you. It's easier than I thought.


 "I'm Japanese!" :)
He he! He wanted to be polite, though he couldn't understand a word!
:-)

 familiarità con lo spagnolo?
Forse perché /ou/, che in RP è /&u/, in americano (non so se dipenda dalla
varietà di americano o dalle singole parole) può diventare /o/. Prendi la
parola "sole": magari un inglese la pronuncerebbe "soule", ma un americano
"sóle".
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

"sóle".
Mmm, e come pronuncerebbe "suole"? ;)
Sebastiano



"Suoulei"? Se sì, gli intimerei di tornare al suo paese. (faccina
si-fa-pe'-schezzare)
Ciao, FB


 Mmm, e come pronuncerebbe "suole"? ;)
Anche se vedo la faccina, tengo a precisare che gli anglofoni hanno
difficoltà solo a pronunciare le /o/ e le /e/ chiuse.
Le /E/ e le /O/ aperte esistono quasi uguali anche in inglese: la prima
sillaba di "suòla" è praticamente identica alla prima sillaba di "swarthy".


si-fa-pe'-schezzare)
ż_ż
Cursed Spanish keyboard layout.
/me switches back to Italian
^_^
Sebastiano

 difficoltà solo a pronunciare le /o/ e le /e/ chiuse.
Anche la "o" chiusa? Direi che se un inglese pronunciasse "bótte" con la
"o" di "board", non sfigurerebbe.
Ciao, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

difficoltà solo a pronunciare le /o/ e le /e/ chiuse.
Ok, come pronuncierebbero suóle? ;)
Sebastiano/it was just a joke ;)

 "o" di "board", non sfigurerebbe.
Assomiglierebbe di più alla O delle "bòtte".
Comunque, sì, come approssimazione potrebbe andare, come anche la E di
"get" per la E chiusa. Non sarebbe peggio di tanti accenti regionali
italiani.
Il problema è che temo che un parlante inglese sappia pronunciare queste
vocali solo accentate. Quindi, non riescono a usare quest'approssimazione
per le E e O atone, in particolare per quelle in finale di parola.
--
Cingar
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
 segnala gli abusi ad 
ab...@newsland.it

 Sebastiano/it was just a joke ;)
Anche se vedo le faccine e la nota "it was just a joke", tengo a precisare
che... Skerzio! :-)


 Assomiglierebbe di piů alla O delle "bňtte".
Non direi. Né in inglese, né in americano la "o" di "board" č aperta.
Bye, FB


 Non direi. Né in inglese, né in americano la "o" di "board" è aperta.
Il mio dizionario (Garzanti, di tendenza molto british) la dà aperta e
lunga: [bO:] (quella che ho scritto "O" sarebbe la "c" capovolta).
L'American Heritage Dictionary, se capisco la loro trascrizione
(
http://www.bartleby.com/61/12.html
), dà prima la pronuncia aperta e poi
quella chiusa:
http://www.bartleby.com/61/46/B0354600.html
Io l'ho sempre sentita aperta, ma nel file audio dell'American Heritage mi
pare in effetti piuttosto chiusa.
Quindi non so che dirti: rimetto la questione al giudizio dei madrelingua
inglesi, specie quelli che conoscono bene l'italiano e le sue due O.


(quellei statuei sonou moltou bellei)
Do I sound like that? please be honest.
http://tinyurl.com/57kbt


http://tinyurl.com/57kbt
It does not work, got a correct URL?
Sebastiano

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:39:52 GMT, jonny wrote:

Not bad at all. Congratulations! Some mistakes you might want to know:
1) Italian "l" is like the BritEng "l" in "love", not the "l" in "full";
2) you say "quele" instead of "quelle", and conversely you say "stattue"
instead of "statue". Try to say "staatue".
Perhaps if you said something more...
<tra me e me>
Manca solo Sebba. Ah, no, anche Henryco il francese.
</tra me e me>
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)


wrote:

Hmm?, It's not working for me now either, this is it:
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/41193003_1741c/bc/jonnycomeparlo.mp3?bfOlTGBBPdiyqkgS



The URL keeps changing every few mins, It's on yahoo briefcase. I've
emailed it to you Seb. Do you know a better way to make it available?

instead of "statue". Try to say "staatue".
I'll try again and this below when I figure out how to make it
available, how did you do it? 


 available, how did you do it? 
If you send it to me (I haven't got it anymore) I'll upload it on my
webspace.
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 Bye, FB
Eat more phosphorus.
:-)
-- 
oggi no, domani sì

 :-)
Safety matches will do? ;)



His momma calls him "Sonny" 'cause he's so bright! :)
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

On 11 Aug 2004 00:07:46 +0200, Enrico C wrote:

His momma calls hime "Sonny" (i.e., "Sunny" as in, sun-filled) 'cause he's
so bright. :)


webspace.
I've sent them, Thanks.



http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/jonnyparlo.mp3
 (you sound Chinese!)
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/jonnycomeparlo2.mp3
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

emailed it to you Seb. Do you know a better way to make it available?
I used 
xoom.it
, but their ftp server is not working right now. I have
to check it.
Now I'll listen to the file...
Sebastiano


Well at least I've lost my English accent :) Half the trouble is that
I don't know what I'm saying.
"not even only Sebba, ah, no, even (also) the French Henryco" ?????
Do me a favour, take both files off your server.


http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/jonnycomeparlo2.mp3
Nice! There's a hint of a "i" after "quelle". You said "staa tue".
"belle" is perfect. This time you have used a mixture of Italian and
English "l" in molto. But overall it's good!
Sebastiano

English "l" in molto. But overall it's good!
Thank you, I done them again, hopefully FB will put them up again,
please let me know how they are this time.

Do me a favour, take both files off your server.
I've done them again, I've just emailed them to you. If you would be
so kind...

please let me know how they are this time.
I will.
Sebastiano

"not even only Sebba, ah, no, even (also) the French Henryco" ?????
Yeah.
Sebastiano

 
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/jonnycomeparlo2.mp3
Bloody hell! Johnny contradicts completely all we have been saying so far...
Johnny's pronunciation is quite good but still recognizably non native.
But the really funny thing is that his accent sounds definitely *German* to
me, not English.
This impression is particularly strong hearing his pronunciation of "Seba":
he says /'ze:ba/ rather than /se:ba/. Pronouncing the initial /s/ as /z/ (a
sound that doesn't occur in this position, in Italian) is typical of
Germans, and shouldn't come natural to English speakers.
The single thing that makes the whole sound totally alien (although not
necessarily "English" or "German": most strangers do this), and that should
probably be improved, is the presence pauses between words: they shouldn't
exist.
Don't be fooled by the spaces in the written form: that's just a spelling
convention. In Italian, between two adjacent words there should be no pause
at all or, anyway, the pause should not be longer than the pause between two
syllables within a word. On the contrary: adjacent syllables in different
words are normally "bounded" more closely than adjacent syllable within the
same word.
E.g., when a word starting by a vowel is preceded by a word ending with a
vowel, the two syllable merge into one, as the first vowel (more rarely the
second one) is not pronounced. These elisions are normally not shown in
modern spelling, which uses the apostrophe very sparingly. However, reading
Italian, you should imagine that there is an apostrophe wherever it would be
conceivable to place one. E.g., although the spelling reads: "Oggi andiamo
in ufficio all'alba", you should read the sentence as if it was written
"Ogg'andiam'in-uffic'all'alba".
--
Cingar
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 Well, Italians call me "Seba".
Now that we are at it... where does the "pop" come from? :)
I mean, I know it's not an abbreviation for your last name.

 Well at least I've lost my English accent :)
Never mind, Italians consider an English accent quite agreeable :)


wrote:

I've set up an FTP, hopefully it should work. My latest effort is
here:
ftp://217.155.38.224/

I mean, I know it's not an abbreviation for your last name.
Whoa, how do you know that? :)
Sebastiano


ftp://217.155.38.224/
Yes, it works.
Jonnyparlo2: Manca solo Seba. Ah, no! Manca anche Enrico il francese.
I don't get you're English.
Enrico sounds Enrrico. :)
francesE. Hai detto francesi.
Il tono di Seba deve essere discendente. C'č un punto. Per il resto,
pur capendo che chi parla non č italiano, non riesco a capire la
provenienza.
Complimenti.
Jonnyparlo3. Quelle statue sono molto belle.
Dici "quelli".
Troppo lunga la a di statue. Suona come staatue. Come apertura, č ok,
falla solo durare meno.
Sono e molto sono ok.
belle sono come bčle. Devi raddoppiare la elle. Perň č detto bene,
sembra un "bele" detto da un veronese (in dialetto veronese non si
usano le doppie, belle č bele, come hai detto tu.
Anche qui, il tono alla fine deve essere discendente, visto il punto
alla fine.
"quelli" invece di "quelle" mi fa pensare che tu sia inglese.
Ri-complimenti.
Sebastiano

 
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/jonnyparlo.mp3
 (you sound Chinese!)
Indeed, he doesn't sound English, here!
Sort of "Continental" :)

 
ftp://217.155.38.224/
Should it not, the files are also available here:
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/jonnycomeparlo3.mp3
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/jonnyparlo2.mp3
Vai bene, ma sembri tutt'altro che inglese. Anzi, sai?, sembri brasiliano.


Ri-complimenti.
Thanks again, I'm happy with this. I sound "foreign" and sometimes I
sound "English" but I am comprehensible, aren't I? You understand what
I'm saying?

I'm saying?
Of course I do! You're clear, don't you worry.
Sebastiano

 Whoa, how do you know that? :)
Cia? Mossad? KGB? M5...? Nope! You use your real name on Amazon.com,
so I receive your STL notices with that name :)

 [...] I am comprehensible, aren't I? [...]
Is "aren't I" a sort of slang expression, or is it just a typo?
BTW, you sound perfectly comprehensible and you accent is not so strong as
to reveal your origin (I still can't help thinking you aren't a German).


so I receive your STL notices with that name :)
Oh, you're right, I forgot about that. :)
Sebastiano

 Is "aren't I" a sort of slang expression, or is it just a typo?
Not at all, it's the tag question corresponding to "I am".
".. am I not?" is also possible, but sounds
very formal. "amn't I?" is mentioned
in Swan, but I've never heard or read it as far as I recall - 
perhaps it was possible several decades or centuries ago.
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 Is "aren't I" a sort of slang expression, or is it just a typo?
It isn't as wrong as it may seem. Since "Am I not?" may sound formal,
somebody says "aren't I?". It isn't quite right either, as far as I know.
"Amn't I?" would be perfect. (smiling face)
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 Vai bene, ma sembri tutt'altro che inglese. Anzi, sai?, sembri brasiliano.
Addirittura! :)

 "Amn't I?" would be perfect. (smiling face)
Was that smiling face winking and joking too? 

 Was that smiling face winking and joking too?
It was. I didn't know it actually existed. Perhaps it is used in Ireland,
but I'm not sure.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Nasalization is just a part of life"
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 I'm not sure everybody would use it even in informal contexts.
It's not considered colloquial at all in AmEng; everyone uses it, no matter
the context. You will very seldom hear "Am I not?" and never "Amn't I?"
(You can't really compare it with "Aren't you?", either, as there is
nothing out the ordinary with that.)
-- 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 the context. You will very seldom hear "Am I not?" and never "Amn't I?"
Well, presumably it wouldn't be used in formal writing, since all
contractions are frowned on in formal writing. Or is that not the
case in the US?


 case in the US?
No, I suppose it wouldn't be used in very formal writing, but the nature of
the phrase itself is discourse; in my post I said "you will very seldom
*hear*...", taking oral communication as the context.
Even in writing, because the phrase is most *likely* to represent
discourse, I see little reason not to use "aren't I?"
My point was intended for FB primarily, as his tendency is to favor the
formal style even in speech. There's nothing wrong with that, but I feel
that in so doing he'll sound like someone who learned English a hundred
years ago. :)


 *hear*...", taking oral communication as the context.
Yes, the point was if "aren't I?" is an acceptable contraction. 
The Original Poster actually asked if it is slang or a typo. 
And it is not, AFAIK :)

 Not at all, it's the tag question corresponding to "I am".
This is certainly true, of course, as Google gives me nearly 100,000
occurrence of it, some of which look not-so-informal documents...
Still, this sounds as a big surprise to me.
First of all, because I don't think I have ever seen it before (probably I
have heard it several times, but didn't notice), secondarily because I
thought that "are" and all forms derived from it could only be used for a
*plural* subject (of course "you" can be singular, but still formally
plural as opposed to "thou").
How does "aren't I" compare to "ain't I"? Which of the two forms sounds
more formal? Or are all "ain't" forms completely archaic now?
--
Cingar
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
 segnala gli abusi ad 
ab...@newsland.it

 more formal? Or are all "ain't" forms completely archaic now?
Whereas "aren't I?" is normal for almost all conversational contexts and
many (if not most) written, "ain't I?" is considered low-level slang. It's
far from archaic, although it's generations old, but it's still in use. You
should avoid it, however, unless you're imitating someone of little
education or class. (I hate to use that word "class" but I can't think of a
better way to put it.)


 more formal? Or are all "ain't" forms completely archaic now?
That's what I meant when I said "it isn't as wrong as it may seem". I guess
"ain't" is always slangy, at least nowadays.
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 better way to put it.)
<politically correct>
You can avoid it. What does "class", that is "money" or... status, to do
with education, and therefore with one's command and knowledge of the
English language? A lower-class person doesn't speak a certain way because
he's not rich, but because possibly he couldn't afford to study long
enough, or perhaps because he has many other things to think about.
Sooo, brothers, I say: "Joey, shame on you". Alll together: "Joey, shame on
you!". And now: "Joey, repent!". "Joey, repent!".
</politically correct>
Basta, vado a fare il pastore (di chiesa, s'intende).


 years ago. :)
I'm aware "Aren't I?" is widespread and not nearly as wrong as it may seem
("Are" after "I"??), or not wrong at all, yet I don't think everyone would
use it. But then I'm not English, and I do tend to favour the formal style.
I don't mean to sound posh or whatever, but... Yes, maybe a little, but the
fact I'm aware of it is still something, innit?
P.S. Is "Am I not?" that old-fashioned? Because I don't want to sound
old-fashioned. At any rate, would you ever say or write it?
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - 
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)

 Basta, vado a fare il pastore
Sheep, beware.


 old-fashioned. At any rate, would you ever say or write it?
No "am I not?" isn't that old-fashioned, it's just a stilted way of
speaking. I would write (or say) it if I wanted to sound erudite or
haughty, maybe in rebuttal to a statement that I found confrontational,
offensive or insulting (i.e., I would answer in kind to whomever affronted
me.)


 me.)
Then, the next time I use it, shall * I have to be aware of all this? I'm a
bit tired, am I... isn't I? 
* I know "Shall-day" was yesterday, but do you think "shall" is appropriate
here? I think it is, and yet "to have to" seems to make it useless, or
wrong. 
I guess "do" would be fine, too.
Bye, FB (supporter of "innit")
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

bit tired, am I... isn't I? 
Can't you just use "aren't I"?
Sebastiano

 have heard it several times, but didn't notice), 
Asking something to oneself when talking to someone else is not so
frequent, is it? ;)

 I guess "do" would be fine, too.
I'm not an expert on "shall" -- that was yesterday. By the way, I knew a
girl who used to answer "I are too!" if you said she wasn't something. (She
was serious. Perhaps she's a maid today, too. :) 




Why, what an intelligent question!
Why didn't I think of asking it?
(Careful.....!)


Why didn't I think of asking it?
^_^
Sebastiano

 was serious. Perhaps she's a maid today, too. :) 
I was thinking, could you say "I am American, aren't I?": "am" and then
"aren't"? I guess so, because it's how question-tags are used...


On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:28:52 +0200, Sebapop wrote:

I don't object to it, really. By the way, at least you don't think I'd say
"amn't I?", do you? (smiling face)


 "aren't"? I guess so, because it's how question-tags are used...
Yes, sure. In fact, it's not uncommon to utter a sentence like the
following: "I am, aren't I?" (i.e., with nothing to separate the two forms
of the verb except a tiny little comma.)
I don't know if you could substitute "British" for "American" in your
sentence. That's not in my purview.


"Ogg'andiam'in-uffic'all'alba".
Thanks, I'll try to take that on board.

Vai bene, ma sembri tutt'altro che inglese. Anzi, sai?, sembri brasiliano.
Well, that's one up from sounding Chinese :) Not meaning to offend
Chinese people, but they don't generally speak English very well,
maybe it's the same with Italian.

Ma nell'insieme la frase e` detta molto chiaramente, complimenti! 
Grazie, Enrrrrico ;))


"amn't I?", do you? (smiling face)
I am not so sure you wouldn't use it, my friend. ;)
Sebastiano



I'm not so courageous, nor so silly.
Bye, FB


I'm not so courageous, nor so silly.
^_^
Sebastiano

 Grazie, Enrrrrico ;))
LOL :)
By the way, I always found my name a bit awkward to  pronounce, for
the unusual NR letter group. In some parts of Italy they sometimes use
the variant "Errico", with RR.
In English too you have both Henry (NR) and Harry (RR) :) 

 Thanks, I won't need to bother you again for any future "come parlo's"
You didn't bother us at all, on the contrary it was interesting. 
One can also learn something about the English pronunciation from
Englishmen's mispronunciations when they speak Italian! :)

 You didn't bother us at all, on the contrary it was interesting. 
I think he means "you", not "ye". (smiling face) Anyhow, he didn't bother
me either.


 I think he means "you", not "ye". (smiling face) 
Sorry, I didn't get you. 
"Ye" means "you", doesn't it?
| ye 1[ji:] pron.pers. 1 (ant.) (2a pers. pl. sogg. e compl.) voi: I
| do beseech ye, vi prego; where were ye?, dove eravate? 2 (poet.,
| scherz.) (2a pers. sing. pl. sogg. e compl.) tu, voi: how d'ye do?,
| come stai?, come state?; thank ye, grazie // Nor you, ye Proud,
| impute to these the fault, (GRAY) E voi, o orgogliosi, non imputate
| a questi la colpa.
[Hazon]

 </tra me e me>
Ora manca solo Seba :)
http://www.lillathedog.net/icling/clips/enrico1.mp3
 (68K)


http://www.lillathedog.net/icling/clips/enrico1.mp3
 (68K)
Dopo lo ascolto, ora devo scappaaaaaaaaaaaaaareeeee!
Sebastiano

 wrote:

I think FB was saying "ye" as in the old English "you" (tu) and not
"you" as in the old English "you" (voi). Meaning I was only talking to
him not everyone (you plural).



I see :)
How comes the "ye" in 
"Nor you, ye Proud, impute to these the fault" 
(="E voi, o orgogliosi, non imputate a questi la colpa")
is a plural you?

 is a plural you?
Ye in Old English is the plural for "you."


Ye in Old English is the plural for "you."
DOH! What I said before expect; ye = voi & you = tu.

On 12 Aug 2004 19:51:14 +0200, Enrico C wrote:

Non male, secondo me. Sono curioso di sapere se ai madrelingua, come a me,
sembri un po' tedesco e un po' francese ("sundays"). Ben fatto!
C'č, mi pare, un po' di confusione tra rhotic e non-rhotic, considerato che
sei apprendista inglese come me. (faccina sorridente)
Aspettiamo Sebba, che č scappaaaaato.
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 Aspettiamo Sebba, che č scappaaaaato.
E attendo tremante soprattutto il parere dei perfidi madrelingua ;-D


wrote:

*Via Seba*, vogliamo sapere, come parli? anche Enrico il francese ha
"come parlo". :)
*come on Seba* ??
anche, "statue" questa è la prononcia corretta?
http://www.zen9021.zen.co.uk/QuelleStatue.mp3

 DOH! What I said before expect; ye = voi & you = tu.
Mi pare di aver visto che YE si usa anche al posto di THE:
Ye Old Mule (tabella di taverna, 
p.es
.)
 
-- 
oggi no, domani sì

 agreeable :)
"Moltou pitorescou!"
Enrico Montesano quando faceva in TV la turista zitella 
inglese in Italia.


 
http://www.zen9021.zen.co.uk/QuelleStatue.mp3
"Statue" is perfect. As to "quelle", just two observations to sound perfect
(but you already speak well):
1) "L" like in "love", not like in "ball";
2) the second "e" in "quelle" should be closed. Also the first, to be
precise.
Bye, FB


On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:55:20 GMT, ADPUF wrote:

This is a common misconception. The first letter in this case was not a Y
but a "thorn" (ţ) which represented the sound of "th" and vaguely resembles
a Y. The Old English "the" was (generally) "ţćt" (modern "that".) "Ye" is
mistakenly used in a lot of commercial names where they are trying to give
an impression of long-standing business, such as:
"Ye Olde Candy Shoppe" (note: "olde" and "shoppe", not "old" and "shop";
another affectation)
(Now that I think of it, it's almost always "ye *old* or *olde*"
something-or-other. It's become a set expression.)


 something-or-other. It's become a set expression.)
"Ye Hole In Ye Wall - Liverpool's Oldest Pub"
www.yeholeinyewall.fsnet.co.uk/
 
:)

 
http://www.zen9021.zen.co.uk/QuelleStatue.mp3
Brilliant! 
La prima "e" di "quelle" dovrebbe essere chiusa.

 E attendo tremante soprattutto il parere dei perfidi madrelingua ;-D
In general, you do very well. I would recommend relaxing your jaw a bit, as
you sound like an Italian speaking English. Oh. You are. :)
Seriously, a more relaxed approach to pronunciation; the cadence is good,
the intonation is okay, but it sounds foreign (maybe French, not German..
or maybe Chinese!) with maybe a little too much emphasis on certain words
I have no trouble whatsoever understanding what you're saying (no need for
a script) but I would not mistake you for Merregano.
Specifics: an occasional Italian R sneaks in ("I Replied")
"my wife and I" has that (lovely, but not American) intonation. Try saying
"my WIFE and i" (accent Wife, drop through the rest of the phrase)
Keep at it, though.
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There ya go: the exception that proves the rule (i.e., that it's "almost
always 'ye old...'"), which, obviously it isn't in *all* cases. :)
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precise.
I understand what you're saying , but to be honest, I don't think I'm
capable of fine tuning my speech to that degree. Maybe In time I'll be
able to.
Thanks.

La prima "e" di "quelle" dovrebbe essere chiusa.
Sě, Io so, anche ha detto FB. Con speranza in tempo migliorerň.
Grazie.
BTW Well done with your speech. You have a foreign accent but I
understood every word you said.


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Try closing the jaw a bit, to utter a closed e.

another affectation)
Or "Ye Olde Tripple Inn" 263 W 54Th St, New York. :)
Sebastiano

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Wow! Five stars each, for food, service, value and atmosphere! You sure
know how to pick 'em!  :)
http://www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails.asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=3894
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know how to pick 'em!  :)
Sheer luck? :)
http://shtick.org/Howard/howard35.htm
It was not far away from my "place".
Sebastiano

 "my WIFE and i" (accent Wife, drop through the rest of the phrase)
Thank you very much for your advice, I'll bear it in mind :)