Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: use of commas

Hi all,
 
While reviewing scientific papers, I encounter a very high number of 
commas placed at the wrong place (at least IMHO). Let me give you an 
example:
 
"We achieve better results, when using method X".
 
I am pretty sure that the comma is in the wrong place there, but I find 
it so often that I'd like to ask your opinion about it.
 
As a closing remark, I noticed that German speaking people do such 
mistakes (?) more often than other, did anyone notice that too?
 
Thanks!
 
G

 it so often that I'd like to ask your opinion about it.
 
I agree that there's a comma too many in that sentence, but I've seen 
much worse in scientific papers!
 
Kiuhnm


L'uso delle virgole in inglese (mi riferisco soprattutto all'inglese 
americano) è spesso molto diverso da quello italiano: basti pensare 
all'impiego dell'Oxford comma che, pur essendo molto presente in tutti 
gli scritti accademici, nella nostra lingua costituirebbe un errore da 
scuola elementare.
 
C'è anche chi non concorda però
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_i1xk07o4g
 
:-)


 
So, that's why they tend to do it in English I guess.
 

 scuola elementare.
 
Pienamente d'accordo.
 
Pero' l'esempio che ho riportato sopra e' errato (e per me personalmente 
anche fastidioso da leggere), no?

 much worse in scientific papers!
 
Oh yes!
 

):

The comma doesn't belong in that sentence. In German, (and Dutch) however, 
separation of dependent and independent clauses is much more critical than in 
English, even influencing word order. That's probably why there are more 
commas... just MHO.
 
-- 
Joey from New York
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator,
but among those whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.
   -- WH Auden
 

 commas... just MHO.
 
Do you agree with me that if we change the order of the clauses the 
comma is fine?
"When using method X, we achieve better results."
 
Kiuhnm

):

Yes.



A comma is not appropriate in that sentence. In some cases the use of 
commas is optional. When given a choice, most Americans use commas more 
often than necessary. Unfortunately, I sometimes err by placing 
unnecessary commas in my sentences. Editors tend to remove commas that 
aren't required so that the reader isn't slowed down. Fewer texts are 
professionally edited these days, so the overabundance of commas should 
be no surprise.


Moreover, many scientific papers aren't edited at all when submitted to 
public repositories. I don't think that editing is part of the process. 
When I wrote my thesis (in Italian), my professor read it and accepted 
it, but he's not an editor (he's an expert in operations research) so my 
thesis wasn't edited, and yet anyone can download it and read it.
Scientists are pragmatic and they're mainly interested in sharing ideas 
and discoveries. I've been writing on a few ngs about math and computer 
science in general and no one has ever complained about my English. 
Sometimes someone writes a post which is very hard to read because 
ungrammatical and overly chaotic, but everyone try to understand it and 
to answer the question the best they can. That's something you can get 
away with only on ngs, of course...
 
Kiuhnm

 away with only on ngs, of course...
 
Here, on the other hand, you may very well complain about my English :)
 
Kiuhnm

 Here, on the other hand, you may very well complain about my English :)
 
OK, but on the whole your written English is good.

 OK, but on the whole your written English is good.
 
Glad to hear that. I'm just trying to strike a balance between using new 
expressions and relying on constructions whose correctness I'm sure of. 
This last sentence is 50/50, for instance ;)
Once I was overly conscious of my writing and my English wasn't 
improving one bit so I told myself "what the hell" and started writing 
more... freely?... without checking out every single word I was writing.
All in all it was the right thing to do, in fact perfectionism 
(especially when you are very far from achieving perfection) is 
counterproductive and hinders your growth and frustrates you. That's 
just my own experience, of course.
 
Kiuhnm

 just my own experience, of course.
 
Yeah, that's my excuse for all my mistakes, too!

 So, that's why they tend to do it in English I guess.
 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma#Separation_of_clauses
 
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommaregeln
 
 
 
-- 
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something
that will always be useful and which never will grow dim or
doubtful.
    -- Mark Twain.
 

 more... freely?... without checking out every single word I was 
writing.
...
 
Agreed.
Besides, even if I checked every word, I would make a good number of 
mistakes anyway!
 
BTW, an iteresting fact about the TOEFL test is that you are required 
to write a 300/350-word essay in just half an hour. That means you 
hardly have the time to think it up and write down something that 
more or less makes sense, let alone be sure of every word!
 
-- 
-- Just my 2 cents