Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: tutto il mondo è paese, ma i nomi no :-)

Ciao,
devo far capire ad una persona ( canadese )
come si pronuncia il nome " I L A R I A " ... qua da noi.
in modo che venga detto come lo diremmo noi ...
non vorrei usare osceni simboli fonetici che non capirebbe ...
come posso fare ?
c'è un metodo "scritto" con cui dirgli come pronunciarlo
"correttamente" ?
Grazie !

"correttamente" ?
y-LAH-re-ah
Sebastiano/forse

 come posso fare ?
http://www.geocities.com/f_pollett/i-1-1.htm
-- 
Easy come easy go

> 
http://www.geocities.com/f_pollett/i-1-1.htm
grazie 1000 ad entrambi ...
ho visto che la tabella mi conferma proprio la versione suggerita da
Sebastiano ...
y-LAH-re-ah
che ne diciamo ? ... io direi che ci siamo quindi :-)



Pero`, leggendo meglio, mi vengono dei dubbi sugli esempi 
che quella pagina propone per insegnare agli anglofoni la pronuncia
delle vocali  italiane.
Per esempio, si afferma:
"A: Always as an English a in cat, fact, or as an o in how, cloud, 
mouse."
Hmmm...  La "a" italiana non e` la "a" di "car"?
Ad ogni modo, nella pagina ci sono anche alcuni "audio sample" 
per chiarire le idee.
-- 
You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

 y-LAH-re-ah
Riporto le regole di spelling di
http://www.geocities.com/f_pollett/i-1-3.htm
Sono tutte giuste? Nel caso della "a" l'esempio con "bath" FORSE non e`
il piu` opportuno, visto che "bath" si pronuncia diversamente negli
USA.
Besides, are there any English equivalents for the Italian "gn" sound?
| The sound of the Italian vowel a is obtained by spelling it
| "..ah..", always sounding as in bath, but obviously clipped, i.e.
| much shorter than in English. 
| 
| 
| 
| The Italian e is spelled "..eh..": it may sound as letter e in bet,
| or as letter a in may not pronouncing the y. 
| 
| 
| 
| The Italian i is obtained by "..yh.." or "..y..", always sounding
| as the letter y in gym; 
| 
| 
| 
| The Italian o is spelled "..oh..", sometimes sounding as letter o
| in box, and sometimes as in coal, though with a shorter sound than
| in English. 
| 
| 
| 
| The Italian u is spelled "..w..", always sounding as letter w in
| want. 
| 
| 
| 
| The Italian c is spelled "..k.." when its sound is "strong"
| (guttural), as in card, come. The "soft" (palatal) sound, like the
| English cluster ch in church or cheese, is spelled "..ch.."
| (remember not to omit the sound of h in this case!). 
| 
| 
| 
| In a similar way, the Italian g is spelled "..g..", when its sound
| is "strong" (guttural), as in goal, guide; its "soft" (palatal)
| sound, like an English j, is spelled "..j..", sounding like jam or
| jungle. 
| 
| 
| 
| The Italian cluster sc, when the sound matches the English cluster
| sh in shade or fish, is spelled "..sh.." (again, do not omit the
| sound of h in this case!). 
| 
| 
| 
| The Italian gn sound is spelled using a Spanish "..ñ..", as señor. 
| 
| 
| 
| For the Italian cluster gl another Spanish group has been used,
| "..ll.." (always with a reminder note). In the GRAMMAR AND
| EXERCISES section of this website, this phonetic spelling has been
| preferred, because it is the closest to the Italian pronounciation.
| Instead, in the USEFUL EXPRESSIONS sections I preferred to use its
| quasi-equivalent English ...lly... spelling, because the readers
| whose only purpose is that to use the sentences on a holiday, would
| find this spelling easier to understand, without having to learn
| the language in depth. 
| 
| 
| 
| The sound of the Italian r is always "rolled": there is no graphic
| way for showing this, so simply keep in mind the pronounciation of
| this letter.
-- 
Red sky at night shepherds delight

 Hmmm...  La "a" italiana non e` la "a" di "car"?
SIII infatti !!! ho appena pensato la stessa identica cosa !
me ne sono accorto proprio ora ... hmmmm :-(
spero solo che il mio amico canadese pronunci *y-LAH-re-ah*
proprio come ILARIA da noi, altrimenti combinerei un bel casotto :-)
il mio dubbio ora sono proprio quelle "A" ...
non vorrei venisse fuori qualcosa tipo " i l è ri eh " ... no eh ?

 come posso fare ?
E se registri la tua voce in un file e lo alleghi ad una e-mail?
Non potrebbe andare?
Ciao
DaX

 non vorrei venisse fuori qualcosa tipo " i l è ri eh " ... no eh ?
Gia`. Potrebbe causare una reazione "i l e` r e" della Ilaria in
questione ;)
-- 
It's no use locking the stable door after the horse has bolted

 Hmmm...  La "a" italiana non e` la "a" di "car"?
Come sono le due "a" in "captare", secondo te?
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 come si pronuncia il nome " I L A R I A " ... qua da noi.
Quella persona canadese parla francese o inglese?
Se parli inglese: y-LAH-re-ah
Se parli francese: i-LAH-ri-a
-- 
I am Ketzl's stooge
Un-not my address if you wanna e-mail me.

 Come sono le due "a" in "captare", secondo te?
Secondo me come la a di car, come suono.
Forse pero` una ticchia meno lunghe?
-- 
Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die

 Forse pero` una ticchia meno lunghe?
Magari mi sbaglio, ma per me la prima "a" in "captare" e' come cap/cat,
e la seconda e' (piu' o meno) come car.


 e la seconda e' (piu' o meno) come car.
no, sono entrambe le "a" di car.

 wrote in message
news:K_Yxc.48955$
Wc.15...@twister2.libero.it

Ma la seconda e' piu' lunga, no? Non sono mica uguali. Cerca di
dire "captare" con due a identiche. Non funziona.


non vorrei venisse fuori qualcosa tipo " i l è ri eh " ... no eh ?
Con "lah" non è possibile, non ti preoccupare. La h finale allunga la
vocale precedente. Vedi la pronuncia di Allah, blah, hallelujah, and
so on.
Sebastiano

Besides, are there any English equivalents for the Italian "gn" sound?
The closest thing is the "ni" sound in "onion" or the "ny" in
"canyon", I'd say. Since the "gn" sound is the same one of the Spanish
eñe, I'd say that one can try to explain that using a Spanish example.
I think that Spanish, at least in the US, is far more common then
Italian.
gn, then, is like ñ in Español. :)
Sebastiano

 y-LAH-re-ah
Per me quella y è un po' fuorviante, a meno che la persona non sia
francofona.
Io direi:
Eel-AH-ree-a
-- 
Mary

 dire "captare" con due a identiche. Non funziona.
Hai ragione.
Direi che succede con tutte le vocali sulle quali cade l'accento.
I latini distinguevano tra vocali lunghe e brevi: in italiano si fa 'sta
distinzione?
-- 
Maria Luisa C - 10/06/2004 16.47.48

 dire "captare" con due a identiche. Non funziona.
E' vero che essendo accentata si tiene di piu` la voce, quindi e` piu`
lunga, pero` il suono e` lo stesso.
-- 
Actions speak louder than words

Mary Cassidy | it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
in <news:40C87694...@invalid.invalid>

Senza h finale?
-- 
A watched pot never boils

 Senza h finale?
Direi di sì, altrimenti lo pronuncerà come Stanlio e Ollio...
-- 
Mary

Direi di sì, altrimenti lo pronuncerà come Stanlio e Ollio...
LOL! :)
Sebastiano

 Forse pero` una ticchia meno lunghe?
Dipende se intendi "car" all'inglese o all'americana. In ogni caso, la "a"
italiana č piů pura, mentre quella inglese piů... corposa, in un certo
senso.
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

 e la seconda e' (piu' o meno) come car.
Sai l'italiano meglio di me e pronunci la prima "a" di "captare" come la
"a" di "cap" o "cat"?? A meno che tu dica [kat], direi che la prima "a" di
"captare č [a], mentre la prima "a" di "cat" č [ae].
Ciao, FB
-- 
L'importante č che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 "captare è [a], mentre la prima "a" di "cat" è [ae].
La prima "a" di "captare" è paragonabile alla "a" di "chance" (all'inglese)
o di "car" (all'americana) ma, come ho già detto, la "a" italiana è diversa
(penso che basti aprire molto la bocca, anche se, in realtà, un italiano
può non aprire poi molto la bocca, specie da queste parti *).
* Ecco, forse da queste parti le persone con una marcata cadenza dialettale
possono pronunciare "cane" (e parole simili) con la "a" di "car" (una "a"
che tende un poco alla "o").
Ciao, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 dire "captare" con due a identiche. Non funziona.
la lunghezza cambia (la seconda "a" è un po' più tirata, diciamo) ma il
suono
è identico.



D'altra parte la "a" italiana è una, no?
Ciao, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 dire "captare" con due a identiche. Non funziona.
Mi pare che, in generale, se la sillaba termina con consonante la vocale è 
breve.
Max

 Se parli francese: i-LAH-ri-a
Ma, in francese, quel nome si pronuncia già come in italiano (a parte la
questione dell'accento sulla seconda sillaba che, però, è quasi impossibile
da spiegare per iscritto a un francofono).
Ciao.
Marco
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

   eel-ARE-yeah
Non funziona. La pronuncia di yeah IMHO non va bene. Yah va benissimo.
Il gioco non è usare parole esistenti, ma usare parole che si
pronuncino come vogliamo. Il suono italiano i, in effetti, si fa
spesso con EE. Non ci avevo pensato all'inizio, quindi mi veniva da
scrivere y (che a me non genera confusione, ma non sono certo un
madrelingua, quindi che non generi confusione a me non ha nessun
valore).
Sebastiano

 eel-AH-reah
<snip>
Comincio a capire perche` e` stato inventato l'IPA ;-)
-- 
Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely

     ee-LAHRRRR-yah
Giusto. I was following the first example, but you are right: your version
eliminates that possibility for error.
And also, it seems from your transcription that the name in Italian has
only three syllables, whereas I thought it had four. 




Help! Aiuto! Su AUE e UCLE sto cercando di spiegare la "a" italiana
agli anglofoni  presi da un improvviso interesse per parole come latte
e caffellatte,  sull'onda di Starbuck's e simili, ma sono solo soletto
;)
Il thread e` 
 "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical 
 in crosspost sui NG
  uk.culture.language.english , sci.lang e  alt.usage.english
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&safe=off&th=7b9fd046e065b5fd&rnum=1
X'Posted to:
it.cultura.linguistica.inglese,it.cultura.linguistica.italiana
X'Posted to: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese,it.cultura.linguistica.italiano
-- 
To err is human, to forgive divine

 e caffellatte,  sull'onda di Starbuck's e simili,
What's the difficulty or are you joking? (The thread is interesting,
nevertheless, and leads to many funny circumstances in restaurants, for
example. "I'm meatloaf." "She's the pork chop." etc., and of course, the
ever-popular query, "What am I, chopped liver?" which never made sense to
me because chopped liver is great (when prepared correctly) but the phrase
always implies a thing of little import or value.
ANyway... the "a" of "father" always worked for me, but in the cases
mentioned I would say "the 'a' of 'father' but shorter, because of the
double consonant following."
Wouldn't that work, or am I missing something? (BTW, I'm decaf now. Not
happy about it, either.)


What's the difficulty or are you joking? (The thread is interesting,
I don't know, but the thread is endless and I have no time right now.
I did something, though.
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sebapop/Languages/Italian.wav
I hate my voice...
Sebastiano

 Sebastiano
Go easy on yourself. I think everyone (with the possible exception of one
member of this NG :) thinks his/her voice sounds strange when played back.


 D'altra parte la "a" italiana è una, no?
si :)

 BTW, I'm decaf now. Not happy about it, either.
Your heart does appreciate. (friendly face)
Bye, FB


 
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sebapop/Languages/Italian.wav
Ladies and gentlemen, you've just heard a "veneto"! (smiling face)
I point out that the word "caffelatte" can be spelt "caffelatte" or
"caffellatte", because "caffe e latte" (originally two words) is pronounced
"caffelatte" in the north, and "caffellatte" elsewhere, where the
"raddoppiamento fonosintattico" is used (that "raddoppiamento" is correct). 
Bye, FB


 because "caffe e latte" (originally two words)
"Caffè e latte".


 double consonant following."
Shorter, fronter, clearer-- has been pointed out in that thread.
But I agree it's the nearest English sound. 
-- 
Mighty oaks from little acorns grow

 
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sebapop/Languages/Italian.wav
Hai visto la risposta di Ruud Harmsen al tuo post?
| >The words are: caffé, latte and caffelatte
| 
| In the isolated caffé the vowel a is darker (backer) than in the
| combined caffelatte. But it's a very slight difference. Any [a] or [A]
| will do, it seems, more like [a] than [A]. The e's seem closest to
| [E].
Cosa si intende con i simbolo della A maiuscola?
-- 
When the cat's away the mice will play

 instance. Am I right or wrong?
Absolutely right. There's such a difference in these that to my ear, as I
said, the Italian vowels seem "true", but for small variations.


member of this NG :) thinks his/her voice sounds strange when played back.
I know, but I am also from the North East and I have a really terrible
accent. :)
Sebastiano

Ladies and gentlemen, you've just heard a "veneto"! (smiling face)
Gne, gne, gne.
Sebastiano

Cosa si intende con i simbolo della A maiuscola?
Non ne ho idea, quindi ho cambiato discorso. :D
Sebastiano

For instance 
I madrelingua thai, se non ricordo male, quando sentono gli inglesi
parlare percepiscono due fonemi distinti quando si tratta di t
aspirata e di t non aspirata. La differenza, effettivamente, esiste.
Solo che per gli inglesi le differenze tra i due suoni non sono
abbastanza marcate da farli ricadere in due distinti gruppi fonemici e
quindi sono riconducibili allo stesso.
In italiano abbiamo un solo fonema per la lettera T. In arabo due. Per
il mio professore di arabo, algerino, la t di torino e la t di tuta
erano due t diverse, che venivano trascritte in modo diverso. Inutile
dire che noi non sentivamo nemmeno la differenza.
Sebastiano

 said, the Italian vowels seem "true", but for small variations.
Yes, a pure, clear sound :)
Is that you mean by "true" here? 
-- 
It never rains but it pours

 distinzione?
Nessuno ha ancora risposto, provo a dire la mia.
Io credo di no, cioe` esiste in pratica una differenza di lunghezza tra
una a e l'altra, per esempio in "captare", ma non e` segnalata perche'
la minore o maggiore lunghezza e` intuitiva, derivando per esempio
dall'accento o dalla vicinanza di consonanti come diceva Max M.,
| Mi pare che, in generale, se la sillaba termina con consonante la vocale č 
| breve.
 e, in ogni caso, la durata della "a" non e` rilevante per distinguere
una parola dall'altra. 
Attendi pareri piu` autorevoli, pero`. Vediamo che ne pensano su iclit
:-)
X'Posted to: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese,it.cultura.linguistica.italiano
FUP2: [Follow-up to: / Risposte a:]  it.cultura.linguistica.italiano
-- 
Actions speak louder than words

 accent. :)
Accents can be altered, after all... :)


 dire che noi non sentivamo nemmeno la differenza.
I studied Russian a few years ago with a native speaker. When we learned
the word for mother (mat' - where the apostrophe is a "soft" sign) she
cautioned us to be very careful about the pronunciation, because if it's
pronounced "mat" (without the soft 't') it means, as she put it, "dirty
words."
We panicked at the thought of saying "dirty words" when we wanted to say
"mother", but it was beyond us to distinguish the difference between the
two. Now, many years later, I understand the difference, but then, I
couldn't hear what she was talking about.
And she never did tell us exactly *what* dirty words it meant. :(


 Is that you mean by "true" here?
Yes, pure and clear, but I meant true as in "consistent".



mmm, e il suono di "cup" come lo collocheresti rispetto alla "a" italiana?
Personalmente trovo *molto* difficile distinguere tutte le (per me) sottili
sfumature delle vocali inglesi. Ad esempio, consideriamo la seguente lista
di parole: cat, cut, cot, cart, ket ; se apro un po' il suono di "cat" dico
"ket" (magari detto con un po' piu' di forza), altrimenti se mantengo un
suono tipo quello della prima a di "captare" lo confondo con "cut"; se poi
provo a differenziare "cut" chiudendo la vocale mi ritrovo a dire "cot"; per
"cart" in pratica uso lo stesso suono di "cut", ma un po' piu' lungo e
"rilassato". Anche il gruppo /e@/ di "air" contribuisce ad alimentare la mia
indecisione, ad esempio in casi come Mary/merry/marry... di certo mi rimane
molto lavoro da fare :-/
Lorenzo

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:38:41 +0200, Sebapop wrote:

I already knew you were from the Veneto, otherwise I couldn't have figured
it out. Of course I could have understood you are from Northern Italy
(because of the missing "raddoppiamento fonosintattico" in "caffellatte",
which I don't use myself).


molto lavoro da fare :-/
Come ho detto qualche mese/anno fa, si possono fare molte parole dal
suono b - vocale - t
bat
bet
bit
bot
but
bart
beet beat
boat
bite
bought
boot
bout
bate
Bert
Ho dimenticato qualche possibilita'? Almeno per gli inglesi del
sud-est, questi suoni sono tutti distinguibili.
Vedi anche 
http://www.mclink.it/mclink/inglese/homophones.txt
Molti italiano sbagliano molte risposte grazie ad incertezze sulle
vocali.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
Poor Impulse Control

 vocali.
"A causa" anziché "grazie", o semplicemente "per".
Ciao, FB
-- 
L'importante č che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)


I grimace whenever my wife pronounces "Benigni" as "Benini", or
"Ben-ig-nee".
I imagine a scene in a restarant in Vicenza, where the famous Roberto
is sitting down for lunch. What is he eating?
Benigni magna gnocchi.
Ciao, vecio
Joe from Massachusetts

Ciao, vecio
"Ciao, vecio!" anca a ti.
Sebastiano

 ;)
It is de rigeur, when ordering a "caffellatte grande" at Starbuck's in
New York, to ask for a "latte grande". Only an Italian (or perhaps a
Frenchman) would use the full name "caffellatte" at Starbucks.
Millions of people leave Starbuck's every day with their "lattes",
having no idea what the word "latte" means.
Joe from Massachusetts

 molto lavoro da fare :-/
Le parole Mary, marry, e merry hanno tre pronuncie distinte e diverse,
ma nella California sono pronunciate uguali. La frase "Did merry Mary
marry?" ha un senso, parlato da un New Yorkese, ma parlato da un
Californiano, "Did merry merry merry" non ha mica un senso. Ci vuole
un contesto per capire cosa vuol dire il Californiano: "Do you know
merry Cassidy?" "Merry Christmas to all". "I will not merry you".
Joe from Massachusetts

 accent. :)
No xe mica varo.
Joe from Massachusetts

 having no idea what the word "latte" means.
I don't think it's just New York, though, is it Joe? How about the
Starbucks by you?? :) (BTW where you been? Vacay?)
I remember people ordering "lattes" long before Starbucks became popular
here. It's just another of those incomplete translations. They go both
ways. When in Paris look for a "parking" for your car. (Forget about the
"lot".) There are lots of others, but my head being in the state it's in (I
think it's somewhere around Iowa, right now) I'm not cogent enough to give
other examples.


 "lot".)
Lo stesso in Italia.
-- 
Good things come to those who wait

"A causa" anziché "grazie", o semplicemente "per".
Ah si'? ("a causa di", no?) Dove avro' preso "grazie a"? Non sembra
nemmeno un anglicismo.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
Domanda: Come si scrivono le equazioni al computer?
Risposta: Con TeX o LaTeX.

 nemmeno un anglicismo.
Dunque:
"... a causa di incertezze sulle vocali" o "... per incertezze sulle
vocali".
"Grazie a" esiste, ma (mi) fa pensare che il risultato sia positivo, es.:
"quell'uomo č stato assolto grazie alla bravura del suo avvocato". In
inglese si dice "thanks to", vero?
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

 inglese si dice "thanks to", vero?
Rarissimamente.
-- 
Mary

inglese si dice "thanks to", vero?
Non potrebbe essere ironia o British Understatement?
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by
incompetence.

 Non potrebbe essere ironia o British Understatement?
Se non lo sai tu... (faccina sorridente)




Interessante. Quindi meglio evitarlo, non essendo madrelingua.


 Ciao, FB
E' comune qui "Thanks to" in quel senso. (I haven't been following the
whole thread, but in the above example, that's exactly how I'd translate
the Italian.


 Magari possiamo aggiungere "beaut", ma c'e' piu' di una vocale.
Ecco il file: 
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/bt.mp3
 (500.9 Kb).
Questa è la lista delle parole:
cat
cut
cot
cart
bat
bet
bit
bot
but
bart
beet, beat
boat
bite
bought
boot
bout
bate
bert
beaut
Sia severo. (faccina sorridente)
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 the Italian.
I would say "thanks to" is  used far less often in British English, at
least, than it is in Italian.
I've just checked a few of my recent translations, and in almost every
case I've avoided "thanks to" as the translation for "grazie a".
Examples:
grazie alla dimensione delle particelle
due to the size of the particles
anche grazie alle proprietą bioadesive	
partly as a result of their bioadhesive properties
grazie all'atmosfera surreale	
in view of the surreal atmosphere
"Thanks to" would sound quite wrong in the first two cases, but might
have been acceptable in the third. 
I would mostly use "thanks to" when you're talking about a person (e.g.
"thanks to X's lawyer"); it can be used in other cases, but it's
unusual.
-- 
Mary

beaut
In all of these the long vowel was _too_ long. I've underlined "boat",
"bought" and "beaut" several times so I must have thought they sounded
wrong as well as being too long.
Also, your "t"s almost all sounded too harsh. Perhaps this was because
you were trying too hard to be very clear whilst recording. caarTT!,
baaarrTT!, booooTT!.
Let me quote some notes I was given in the late 1980s:
"English speakers pronounce T by placing the front of the tongue (i.e.
an area about 1/4" to 1/2" away from the tip) against the ridge of the
gum behind the upper teeth. Italians pronounce T by placing the tip of
the tongue against the teeth.
I've got 13 pages of this stuff. It's oddly detailed, but it must have
done me some good.
The "u" in "put" was missing from the word list. Never mind: I
couldn't think of a b..t word with that sound in it.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.

 you were trying too hard to be very clear whilst recording.
You're right. I pronounced those words as usually do speakers in
dictionaries such as Collins (con le dovute proporzioni, s'intende): very
clearly, slowly. For instance, "bought" is just as long according to my
Collins' audiofile, but of course it is emphasised. Perhaps if I pronounced
those words in a text, I would sound more natural. As to harsh t's, I
realise, listening to Collins audiofile, they were really harsh. 
Secondo te, quanto devo migliorare per sembrare madrelingua, niente di
meno? Sii severo ancora.
Grazie dell'aiuto.
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

meno? Sii severo ancora.
Impossibile dirlo sulla base di (i) delle parole isolate e (ii) la tua
lettura di un branno scritto da altri, sebbene il secondo sia piu' utile
del primo. Come te la cavi quando le parole non sono gia' state
preparate? :-)
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
Viva la pappa col pomodoro! (G. Stoppani)

 unusual.
I agree. In the contexts you provided, mostly scientific, I wouldn't use
"thanks to" either. I was thinking mostly in reference to people, as the
example that cited the lawyer.
It points out to me the wider use of the Italian "grazie a" than the
English "thanks to."


 didn't want to sound American at all, I don't want to say that.
It doesn't sound American to me; nor does it sound like the right vowel
sound for ae. It's a bit too much like open "e"... it doesn't need to be
nasal, but it needs to be more like "a" than "e".
Except for agreeing with Adam as regards the over-emphasized "Ts", I won't
comment on the rest, as I'm not a native BE speaker.


 done me some good.
You know you made all us bl**dy curious to read those 13 pages, don't
you? ;)
Have you ever published them on a web page, by any chance?
-- 
There's small choice in rotten apples. - William Shakespeare
(1564-1616)

 I've put my attempt on 
http://www.mistral.co.uk/ghira/paroline.wav
Grazie, molto utile!
-- 
You can't have peace any longer than your neighbor pleases. -  (on war
and peace, and blocks of flats)

 I've put my attempt on 
http://www.mistral.co.uk/ghira/paroline.wav
Thank you. You speak English very well! :) Lovely.


 Thank you. You speak English very well! :) Lovely.
Why thank you, kind sir.
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG


-- 
No man fears what he has seen grow. - African Proverb

 vicina alla a italiana [in certi casi] di quanto si pensi comunemente,
Devo dire che io non sento nessuna differenza, ma lo so che non ho molto
orecchio per le pronunce.
Mi da molto fastidio sentire i ragazzi italiani che studiano l'inglese a
scuola dire "bleck", etc.; se gli insegnassero ad usare la "a" di
"pasta" invece della ae, la pronuncerebbero molto meglio a mio avviso.
-- 
Mary

 Except for agreeing with Adam as regards the over-emphasized "Ts"
MosTT inchresTTing.
Bye, FB


 the tongue against the teeth.
I think my t's were not Italian t's. Otherwise, I think I would've stressed
them less.


 "pasta" invece della ae, la pronuncerebbero molto meglio a mio avviso.
Sono d'accordo.


 Sei d'accordo con me sulle due a in "captare"?
Sė; non ho studiato fonetica, ma sento la seconda come pių lunga della
prima.
-- 
Mary

 prima.
Si`, questo e` indubbio. Se parliamo di lunghezza, la prima "a" e` corta
mentre la seconda "a", accentata, e` piu` lunga.
 Pero` prova a separare i due aspetti, cioe` la "lunghezza" e la
"qualita`" del suono, so to speak. 
La "qualita`" del suono secondo me rimane la stessa, o almeno non
percepisco differenze, per entrambe le "a".
 
-- 
A new broom sweeps clean

 percepisco differenze, per entrambe le "a".
Io concordo (ma non sono madrelingua) che il suono delle 'a' rimane lo
stesso, e' soltanto l'accento che da' la lunghezza.
Prova a dire cāptare... la seconda 'a' diviene piu; corta, no?


 Sei d'accordo con me sulle due a in "captare"?
Prova a pronunciare "captare" e poi solo "cap" (all'italiana). Ti sembra
identico alla parola inglese "cap"? A me pare /kap/ (come, del resto,
riportano i vocabolari), cioè /k/, la vocale di "car" ma breve, e /p/. 
Lascia stare la mia competenza a produrre /ae/... Quanto a orecchio, il
"cap" di "captare" e la parola "cap" mi paiono parecchio diversi. 
Forse, se a pronunciare è un milanesone o un siciliano non so, ma non è la
pronuncia corretta. Non so, "captare" detto da Berlusconi è "cäptäre"
(/kaep'tae:re/), ma mica è giusto.
Ciao, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda


Mary Cassidy | it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
in <news:40CDA949...@invalid.invalid>


Interessante! E' vero che si sentono bleck e simili!, e allora sono
d'accordo che sarebbe forse meglio insegnare la ae direttamente come
a.
Pero` anche quello non e` proprio lo stesso suono. La a di cat a me
suona un po' nasale e *leggermente* [just a tad!] tendente alla e. 
BTW, sul CD dell'Oxford Adv. L. Dict. ho il file sonoro della parola
inglese "pasta", presa in prestito dall'italiano, e la "a" in pa- e`
pronunciata proprio come la "a" di cat [anche la trascrizione in
simboli fonetici lo conferma].
Il risultato fa pensare alla parola italiana "pasta" come la
pronuncerebbe un inglese, ma e` leggermente diverso da come la
pronuncerebbe un italiano  :-)
Credo che la a italiana di pasta [che puo` variare come lunghezza, ma e`
una sola, mi pare, come qualita`/tipo di suono] sia a meta` strada tra
tre suoni inglesi:
a di cat, 
a di cart, 
e u di cut. 
Vedi anche gli appunti gentilmente messi online da Sebapop :-)
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sebapop/Languages/italian-english%20vowels.jpg
-- 
History repeats itself. - George Eliot (1819-1880)

 riportano i vocabolari), cioè /k/, la vocale di "car" ma breve, e /p/.
Hmm, lascia stare la vocale di "car". Non credo, a questo punto, che,
malgrado quanto segnala l'IPA, /a/ sia identico in italiano e in inglese.


 Come te la cavi quando le parole non sono gia' state preparate? :-)
Non ho mai conversato per, ad esempio, mezz'ora di fila senza tregua con un
madrelingua. Non credo che me la caverei male, ma mi accorgo ora che è
parecchio difficile concentrarsi su tutti i particolari contemporaneamente.


to Collins Dictionary.
"baut" is pretty much what I said, really. I don't think my accent is
recognisably Australian. Fairly generic south-eastern middle class,
I'd have said. I haven't lived in Australia since 1974, and both my
parents were British.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
Only some kind of a numbskull thinks he knows things about things he
knows nothing about. (Amy Archer)

 malgrado quanto segnala l'IPA, /a/ sia identico in italiano e in inglese.
Infatti, penso anch'io.
	Secondo me, la a italiana e` non soltanto piu` corta, ma ha anche un
suono piu` "chiaro", mentre al confronto la a di car e di father ha un
suono piu` "oscuro" e che tende leggerissimamente verso la "o".
Sicuramente qualcun altro sapra` descrivere meglio la differenza.
-- 
It is easier to believe than to go and ask.- Serbian (on idleness)

 to Collins Dictionary.
Zanichelli says "(pop. Austr.) cosa fantastica; meraviglia; bellezza."
-- 
Our desires are the cause of our suffering and pain in life. - Old
Buddist saying

malgrado quanto segnala l'IPA, /a/ sia identico in italiano e in inglese.
Non sono assolutamente identici. Si assomigliano molto. Non c'è una
sola vocale *identica* tra le due lingue.
Guarda:
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sebapop/Languages/italian-english%20vowels.jpg
Sebastiano

 "baut" is pretty much what I said, really.
I was referring to the Collins audiofile for "bout" (it's "baut"). Do you,
by any chance, also say "abčut" for "about"? 
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sebapop/Languages/italian-english%20vowels.jpg
Oh, denghiu!


by any chance, also say "abčut" for "about"? 
I expect so
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
Eschew obfuscation!

Oh, denghiu!
Prego.
Sebastiano

 parents were British.
I do note what I would call a British "ou" sound there, but not necessarily
Australian.
-- 
I am Ketzl's stooge
Un-not my address if you wanna e-mail me.

 try 
http://www.mistral.co.uk/ghira/paroline_nasali.wav
Well, this is the first speaking nose I've ever known of. (witty face)
Actually... your Janice was not much more nasal than yourself. No offence
intended again!!
By the way, you said "moy"! Perhaps tomorrow I'll try again. Now, try as I
might, it seems I cannot "cavare un ragno dal buco".
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

 try 
http://www.mistral.co.uk/ghira/paroline_nasali.wav
I would have been happy if UV's Michael had spoken as you do in your
introduction :-)
[I don't mean the nasal words, I mean your normal utterance].
-- 
It's never too late

 diverse, in pratica.
Si`, pero` in inglese e` sempre /a:/ , mai /a/, o sbaglio?
-- 
Believe in yourself. - unknown



You're right. Adam is extremely clear.
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 Si`, pero` in inglese e` sempre /a:/ , mai /a/, o sbaglio?
In americano credo di no, ma non vedo spesso le pronunce americane in IPA.
"Car" all'americana dovrebbe essere /kar/, vero?
Ciao, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica)

 try 
http://www.mistral.co.uk/ghira/paroline_nasali.wav
Tu stesso avverti di non fidarsi troppo della tua pronuncia
"americana" :)
Non sono molto convinto di come pronunci "boat" "alla Janice".
Secondo M-W online ed Encarta, gli americani dicono qualcosa che a me
ricorda il tuo "bot" (*) con pronuncia inglese dell'altro wav file.
Puo` essere?
Intendo solo il "bot" pronunciato all'inglese, naturalmente, perche' in
AmE dovrebbe leggersi  /ba:t/ , AFAIK
-- 
Never change horses in midstream. - Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

 Puo` essere?
Boh.
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 Boh.
Inteso come pronuncia? ;)
-- 
A smile is a window in your face to show your heart is at home. 

 Inteso come pronuncia? ;)
Esiste un equivalente inglese di "boh"? "Dunno"?
Ciao, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)


I live in the hinterlands, and there is no Starbuck's in the vicinity.
(Not even a Krispy Kreme!). However, I am addicted to the coffee at
"Le Dunkin' Donuts". Even when I am in NYC, which is overrun by
Starbuck's, I arise very early and make a foray to the nearest Dunkin'
Donuts. Two years ago, early in the morning on Christmas Day, I left
the family at the DaVinci Hotel (not far from Seba's old NYC address)
and ventured over to one of the Dunkin' Donuts in Times Square, where
I met an Israeli doctor who had been mugged the night before, as he
was leaving Columbia University, up on 116th St. They stole his laptop
and his wallet, broke his glasses, and left him with a desire to leave
New York and go home to Tel Aviv and never return again. I consoled
him as best I could, and attempted to restore his faith in humanity,
all to no avail. It is something of an endorsement of Dunkin' Donuts,
when a man in such desperate straits seeks solace there rather than in
the faux sophistication of Starbuck's.
Maybe if I had a laptop I could be cajoled into visiting Starbuck's,
to take advantage of the wireless access they offer. This brings to
mind an interesting question. With the wireless access, don't they
have people who buy a "latte" (ugh! What a deplorable use of a
perfectly harmless word!) and sit there all day at their laptops
browsing the Web? Maybe they have a spotter whose job it is to ask
people to leave when they have finished their beverage? I once worked
as a bus boy at a Bickford's restaurant, where part of my job was to
snatch empty coffee cups away from people who had finished their
coffee, but were still hanging around chatting with their friends, and
preventing the lunch crowd from finding adequate seating. Their
subterfuge was to lay a paper napkin over the top of the cup, to
disguise the fact that it was empty. I would hover among the tables,
and at a moment of distraction, would grab the empty cups and rush
away, cries of complaint notwithstanding.
So, in Starbuck's, if you want to order a glass of milk, you say "I
don't want a 'latte', I want a 'milk' ( I don't want a "milk", I want
a "MILK")?
My PC went kaput, and I had to replace a power supply and a CPU fan.
Luckily, I didn't cook the CPU when the fan died. In the meantime I
was using two other pre-historic PC's to check the mail, but I'm back
to my old PC again. While the PC was down, I convinced my son to swap
video cards with me, since his has a video output.Now I have the video
and audio hooked up to the VCR so I can watch programs from
raiclick.it
 on the big-screen TV.
By the way, did you ever get to check out 
raiclick.it
 on your DSL? I
downloaded a little program called "TCP Optimizer", and ran it, and it
increased my download speed by about 20%. Before I decide to watch
anything from raiclick, I go to
http://digilander.libero.it/pabasoftware/speedtest/
and run a speed test for "DSL 640 kbps". If the result is better than
290 kbps, I can watch programs with some reloading, which is
acceptable, if I'm just watching the news. If it is better than 320, I
can watch near-flawless video (as far as streaming video goes),
without interruption. I even tested recording a program on VHS (the
first episode of this year's "Dove osano le quaglie") just to see how
it looks, and it's acceptable. I got to see a woman enjoying a "new
experience", which was having an aperitivo with an Umbrian sheep. Even
my wife, who doesn't understand a word of Italian, thought that was
funny.  I wonder if it is only Umbrian sheep that are partial to
aperitivos, or would any old sheep do?
Don't turn your back on that cat, and stay away from the railing. :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:fsf5r0hbw7c.pitiabpd7rj0$.dlg@40tude.net...

Ehhhh...?
Joe from Massachusetts

 first episode of this year's "Dove osano le quaglie") just to see how
I have never watched that, but I used to listen to "Il ruggito del
coniglio" (the Rabbit's Roar), a radio show featuring the same couple
of comedians. They were funny  :)
-- 
Too soon old, too late smart ! - Norma Victor

 Ehhhh...?
"Ehhhh... ?" cosa? (faccina perplessa?


 Don't turn your back on that cat, and stay away from the railing. :>)
I was hoping the north web cam would be working these days (it hasn't been)
because they've erected a construction crane in my backyard, which is in
reality the Morgan Library campus; they're expanding the museum, their
storage space and the auditorium, and the crane is there for the steel
they'll be erecting. It was fun watching them set it up.
The library project was designed by Renzo Piano; it's really going to be
nice when completed, (I've seen the model) but it won't be open again until
Spring of 2006!


 these days (it hasn't been)
I noticed something very suspicious about that WebCam - there is a
strategically-placed object which prevents viewing the northwest
corner of Lexington Avenue and 34th Street. Have you ever wondered
why? :>)
Joe



The northwest corner is a fairly nice apartment building; the northeast
corner, on the other hand, is where Opus Dei is located (but you knew
that!) Still I can't imaaaaagine why they would purposely put an
obstruction in the way....   Oh, and do you have any bridges for sale?


 Perhaps tomorrow I'll try again.
Ecco il mio secondo e *ultimo* tentativo: 
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/nuoveparoline.mp3
 (253.5 Kb)
Sinceramente, non credo che potrei fare molto meglio di così. La lista di
parole è la seguente (le parole contrassegnate da "R" sono quelle che
ripeto, prima "normalmente", poi con la pronuncia che io ritengo nasale):
cat R
cut 
cot 
cart R
bat R
bet
bit
bot
but
bart R
beet 
beat
boat
bite R
bought
boot
bout R
bate
bert
beaut
Sii severo di nuovo. Poi, devi vendicarti del mio commento su te che
assomigli a Mike! (faccina scherzosa)
Questo, invece, è la pronuncia di "bout" data dal Collins Dictionary for
Advanced Learners. Ti conviene abbassare le casse perché è registrato a
volume troppo alto:
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/bout.mp3
 (16.8 Kb)
Ciao, FB


 wrote in message
news:pv33588cgjjp.13...@40tude.net...

I guess I meant the northeast corner. I was confused because of the
address. In the Bronx, even numbered buildings are on the East side of
the street (952 Kelly St., Colin Powell's (and my) old home), is on
the East side of the street. I had forgotten that in Manhattan, 243
Lexington Avenue is on the East side of the street.
In either case, the mysterious blockage remains, preventing the
viewing of the intersection of Lexington Avenue and 34th St..  :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fb83/nuoveparoline.mp3
 (253.5 Kb)
Hai vinto il premio speedygonzalez!
-- 
Little by little does the trick. - Aesop (c.620-560 BC)

 Joe from Massachusetts
Someone said something about "divine intervention"...


 Someone said something about "divine intervention"...
Why shouldn't they want to be seen?
Bye, FB


 Hai vinto il premio speedygonzalez!
Veloce? L'ho fatto perché:
1) Mi è venuto;
2) DOVEVO respirare! (faccina sorridente);
3) Speravo che aiutasse a non accentuare le "t" e altri suoni.


 Bye, FB
Did you read "The DaVinci Code"?



I still haven't read the book. Did you know that Massachusetts is the
home of the group which deprograms former "cilicisti"?
Joe from Massachusetts

 ripeto, prima "normalmente", poi con la pronuncia che io ritengo nasale):
I can't tell the difference between your "nasal" and "non-nasal"
versions.
This evening I'll try listening to the file repeatedly with headphones.
The last few words on the list seem to be missing. 
I remember noticing at least one word that seemed to be just plain
wrong, but I don't recall which. More details this evening.


 Did you read "The DaVinci Code"?
I haven't. Why?
Bye, FB


 wrong, but I don't recall which.
Maybe "cot"? 
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 versions.
Nor can I. Are you sure your hearing is okay?  I SAY, ARE YOU SURE... :)


 I haven't. Why?
The story involves Opus Dei significantly, and doesn't paint them in a very
good light. (Their world headquarters is on the corner he mentions,
Lexington Avenue and 34th Street.)
I don't want to give too much away, but if you read the book you'll
understand why Joe might think that Opus Dei wouldn't want their
headquarters to be visible world-wide.


 Nor can I. Are you sure your hearing is okay?  I SAY, ARE YOU SURE... :)
It's not my hearing. It's these young whippersnappers mumbling
all the time.


 Nor can I. Are you sure your hearing is okay?  I SAY, ARE YOU SURE... :)
But you realise they're different somehow, don't you?
Bye, FB
-- 
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

 all the time.
Sorry, Adam; my post was meant for FB, who maybe can't hear what he thinks
he hears (if that makes sense.) I've no doubt your hearing is fine.


 FB, who maybe can't hear what he thinks he hears (if that makes sense.)
Actually, it must be some psychological (I hope the "y" is in the right
place...) trick, for I hear different things when I speak and when I listen
to what I('ve?) recorded.
Bye, FB


 Bye, FB
I would say it's physiological, rather than psychological (and the "y" was
in the right place) because nearly everyone is surprised to hear their own
recorded voice.
I can detect essentially no difference between the two versions of those
words that you recorded twice.



This unease could best be explained by asking why a book, "Lo que hay
tras el umbral", disappeared from bookshelves in Spain shortly after
publication several years ago, due to the efforts of the people in
that building. We don't want that to happen here. So far, the book is
still available in English and Italian ("Beyond the Threshhold",
"Oltre la Soglia").
Joe from Massachusetts

boot
the file cuts off here
I can hardly hear any difference between your supposedly nasal and
supposedly non-nasal renditions of the "R" words. One is slightly
longer, perhaps.
Other than "bet", everything sounded fine.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
British Go Association: 
http://www.britgo.org/

 Other than "bet", everything sounded fine.
At last. (faccina sollevata) Thank you.


Out of curiosity: would you say it's just wrong or unusual?
It's hard to say. There's such a wide variety of native speaker
accents (consider Liverpool vs Texas vs Melbourne) that if you spoke
easily and smoothly, without obvious grammatical mistakes, no-one
would notice if you said "bet" oddly. If I hadn't been listening to a
list of isolated words repeatedly, I'm not sure if I'd have noticed.
As far as your quest to sound like a native speaker is concerned, you
need to worry about pauses/stresses in unnatural places, odd choice of
vocab etc. just as much as grammatical mistakes or incorrect vowel
sounds. e.g. my "Tutto va bene" instead of "Va tutto bene" wasn't so
much a grammatical mistake as not something native speakers would say,
I think.
-- 
Adam Atkinson (
gh...@mistral.co.uk
)
"You know, I've gone to a lot of psychics, and they've told me a lot of
different things, but not one of them has ever told me 'You are an
undercover policewoman here to arrest me.'"