Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Comma splices

Hi everyone,
 
I keep coming across comma splices more and more often as of lately. I 
even asked on a subreddit about grammar and I was looked at as if I 
was[*] out of this world for even suggesting that comma splices might be 
substandard usage.
Don't get me wrong. I believe in simplifying the language and in getting 
rid of complicated rules which don't bring any real benefits to the 
table, but I think that comma splices really hurt the flow of the 
reading, or at least of *my* reading.
 
What's your stance on this matter?
 
[*] Yeah, I don't use subjunctives anymore if not in very formal 
writing, which means that I never use them.
 
Kiuhnm

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When two relatively unrelated independent clauses (that are really two 
different thoughts) are joined by a comma without a conjunction (or 
other appropriate connector), that is considered a substandard comma 
splice. For example, "I don't like inappropriate comma splices, I do 
like the proper use of the subjunctive" is a comma splice.
 
The example sentence above would be acceptable if the the clauses were 
joined by "but." However, it is not considered grammatically correct to 
join the clauses with "however," a "conjunctive adverb." I made this 
error in the past until an editor pointed it out to me. Now, I close the 
first independent clause with a period before starting the second with 
"however."
 
Because my knowledge of English is based on my intuition, which has been 
steeped in a profound interest and total immersion in written and spoken 
English language usage all of my life, and not driven by an interest in 
the rules of grammar, I consulted some references so that I could better 
explain "my stance." I agree with all of the guidelines listed below, 
which I gleaned from those texts, so they can be considered a 
description of my intuitive stance.
 
1. You can join two closely related clauses of equal importance with a 
semicolon when you want to emphasize the relationship. "I don't like 
inappropriate comma splices; I do appreciate the proper use of the 
subjunctive."
 
2. You can join two closely related clauses of equal importance with a 
coordinating conjunction that also shows how they are related. "I don't 
like inappropriate comma splices, yet I do appreciate the proper use of 
the subjunctive." References say that neither a conjunctive adverb 
(however, nevertheless, therefore) nor any other transitional expression 
(for example, in fact, on the other hand) substitutes for a coordinating 
conjunction. You should use a semicolon or period in these applications.
 
3, You can join two clauses that are not of equal importance by 
subordinating the less important idea in a dependent clause. "I like the 
proper use of the subjunctive, not the inappropriate use of comma splices."
 
4.  You can join two short balanced independent clauses with a comma. "I 
like the subjunctive, I like commas." (However, my stance is that I 
would prefer to write these as two separate sentences.)
 
5. You can join two short parallel independent clauses with a comma, 
especially when one clause contradicts the other. "The subjunctive isn't 
formal, it's standard English."
 
6. You can join a statement and tag question, even thought each is an 
independent clause. "The appropriate use of the subjunctive is 
admirable, isn't it?"
 
Fortunately for me, I don't have to learn these rules, they just sound 
right to my ear. I wish that I could more fully transfer that advantage 
to my knowledge of Italian, but language immersion isn't convertible.

 to my knowledge of Italian, but language immersion isn't convertible.
 
Lucky for us, I can't see any differences between Italian and English in 
this regard.
 
Kiuhnm

 storia poco originale.
 
You can even use the colon(:) twice or more times, in italian language. 
I must warn you that nobody uses semicolon(;) any more, in Italy.
 

 must warn you that nobody uses semicolon(;) any more, in Italy.
 
Chi te l'ha detto? Forse non lo usi tu.
 
-- 
Et interrogabant eum turbae dicentes: “Quid ergo faciemus?”.
Respondens autem dicebat illis: “Qui habet duas tunicas,
det non habenti; et, qui habet escas, similiter faciat”.
(Ev. sec. Lucam 3,10-11)

    The subjunctive isn't formal: it's standard English.
 
It seems you are even more prone than I am to overuse the colon. If your 
preference is to adhere to more standard practices of punctuation, you 
might consider using other options in the example above.
 
Some other situations in which the colon is appropriate are the 
following: explanatory material, quotations, business letter 
salutations, separating titles from subtitles, separating chapter from 
verse, separating minutes from seconds, and separating the place of 
publication from the name of the publisher.

 Chi te l'ha detto? Forse non lo usi tu.
 
ilChierico esagera, però è innegabile che l'uso del punto e virgola sia 
in forte declino.
 
Kiuhnm

 although it does meet the second criterion.
 
I've just found this:
 
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/colons.asp
 
 
In particular, have a look at rule 4:
 
 > A colon instead of a semicolon may be used between independent
 > clauses when the second sentence explains, illustrates, paraphrases,
 > or expands on the first sentence."
 >
 > Example: He got what he worked for: he really earned that promotion.
 
That's my favorite (ab)use of the colon!
Maybe there isn't complete agreement between professional editors. 
Italian grammarians don't even agree on simple matters such as "qual'è" 
versus "qual è" or "sé stesso" vs "se stesso", so this wouldn't surprise 
me one bit.
 
Kiuhnm

 me one bit.
 
It's certainly the case that there often isn't total agreement on 
grammar, but I think that with explanatory material you can feel safe 
using a colon. My focus on lists or series was too restrictive.
 
 
 

 using a colon. My focus on lists or series was too restrictive.
 
OK, thanks.
 
Changing the subject, why did you put "stance" between quotes in one of 
your previous posts in this thread? As you probably noticed, non native 
speakers try to pick up as many idioms as possible in the attempt to 
sound "more native".
 
I remember reading the expression "That's a horse of a different 
colo(u)r" on this newsgroup many years ago. I think it was Joey. (I 
can't see him right now. I hope he's doing well.) Anyway, I used that 
expression with another native speaker and he didn't understand what I 
meant. I explained it to him and he suggested that I should never use 
that expression again...
 
Kiuhnm

 in forte declino.
 
Io cerco di usarlo anche se di recente ho qualche problema con le 
virgole, in effetti.
 

 me one bit.
 
For the latter form, I read some sort of explanation. But the former is 
without any doubt "troncamento" (written in italian to avoid 
misunderstanding) so "qual e'" is the only correct form.
 


L'obiezione è che "qual" compare soltanto in un modo di dire ormai poco 
usato: "Qual buon vento [ti porta]!". Per questo motivo, alcuni 
sostengono che "qual" non faccia praticamente più parte dell'italiano 
corrente e si debba quindi usare la forma elisa "qual'è".
Comunque penso che, almeno per ora, "qual è" sia la scelta più condivisa 
e sicura.
 
Riguardo alla seconda questione, se accettiamo "se stesso" allora perché 
non accettare "al di la"? Io preferisco "sé stesso".
 
Kiuhnm

 that expression again...
 
The expression is rather dated and perhaps your acquaintance drew from a 
more youthful treasury of expressions which didn't include that vintage. 
I'll employ our trusty colon to introduce a couple of explanatory 
references:
 
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/horse-of-a-different-color--a
 
https://idiomation.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/horse-of-a-different-color/
 
 
 
 

 
https://idiomation.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/horse-of-a-different-color/
 
 
Next time I'll use the more sober "that's a different story".
 
Kiuhnm

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You're comparing apples and oranges.
 
Lo so che agli italiani piaciono le espressioni che riferiscono alle vedure.
 


... che si riferiscono...
 
Senza il riflessivo "si", il significato cambia e "riferire" significa 
dire/comunicare:
   Marco mi ha riferito che oggi ti sei assentato dal lavoro.
   Sara riferisce che le sue imprese stanno decollando.
 
Don't ask me for a general rule about "si" because I don't think there 
is a simple one.
 
Kiuhnm


Yes, thank you. It's another reminder that my English immersion 
knowledge isn't convertible.
 
Because I believe that you you also appreciate comments on your writing, 
let me offer some observations about your earlier email that I let slide 
without comment. They are just oddities that hint that the writer may 
not be a native English speaker.
 
The expression "out of this world" typically refers to something amazing 
and wonderful. That pizza was out of this world. If you want to imply 
"odd," you might say "other worldly," or more informally, "from another 
planet" or "from Mars."
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-this-world
 
 
You should say "lately" or "as of late," but not "as of lately." That 
doesn't mean you won't be able to find examples of the less common 
expression. Here is a discussion of the topic. It mentions an NGram 
viewer, something new to me.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/29810/as-of-late-or-as-of-lately
 
 
Google Books Ngram Viewer is an online search engine that charts 
frequencies of any set of comma-delimited search strings using a yearly 
count of n-grams found in sources printed between 1800 and 2000.
https://books.google.com/ngrams
 
 
 
 

 
https://books.google.com/ngrams
 
 
I have a passing knowledge of n-grams since they come up often in ML/AI.
 
Kiuhnm

 non accettare "al di la"? Io preferisco "sé stesso".
 
Sospetto che la confusione linguistica abbia molto a che fare col 
Sessantotto, io pure assieme alla spiegazione sul vero motivo per cui ci 
e' stato insegnato in modo sbagliato quarant'anni fa, ho letto l'appunto 
sull'espressione utilizzata dal Manzoni "i miei venticinque lettori", 
mutuata da un modo di dire del Cinquecento, che non mi era mai stato 
spiegato a scuola.
 
Come si fa a cambiare l'esegesi del testo manzoniano senza avvisare la 
Crusca e senza causare una guerra grammatical-semantico-irreparabile? :-D
 
Quindi chi ha ragione? Quien sabe O:-)
 

 stesso".
 
 
Ma sì ormai quell'eccezione non ha più senso, se mai l'ha
avuto.
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°  
Ho plonkato tutti quelli che postano da Google Groups!
Qui è Usenet, non è il Web!

 "nel qual caso"
 
Sì, c'è anche "in un certo qual modo".
 
Kiuhnm

 Sì, c'è anche "in un certo qual modo".
 
"come e in qual misura"
"in un certo qual senso"
"qual piuma al vento"
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