Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Domanda di grammatica...

Un'amica mi ha chiesto quale delle due frasi č corretta :
"If water didn't exist, life would not have evolved on Earth."
oppure :
"If water hadn't existed, life would not have evolved on Earth."
Io opterei per la seconda, perchč il fatto che una cosa non ci sia
oggi non implica che non possa esserci stata nel passato.
Sbaglio poi o la prima č proprio sbagliata grammaticalmente?
In italiano : "Se <congiuntivo presente>...., richiede un
<condizionale presente>.
Che ne pensate?

 <condizionale presente>.
"Se <congiuntivo *imperfetto*>, <condizionale presente>". "Se <congiuntivo
trapassato>, <condizionale passato>".
Ciao, FB

 Che ne pensate?
 
AmEng Joe here.
In my opinion both are acceptable and grammatically correct. In casual 
discourse, or even in a spoken lecture, I suppose, the first may be more 
likely, *except* if in the course of that conversation or lecture there 
is a significant number of "past-tense" references. In that case, the 
second would perhaps be better, in keeping with the past-tense context.
Also remember that, in AmEng at least, in most cases the "congiuntivo" 
has disappeared (I would say most people here don't even know what the 
"subjunctive" tense is); therefore the coordination of tenses between 
dependent and independent conditional clauses is much more lax than in 
Italian. (You may be happy to know learning this coordination in 
Italian is a bugbear for me, and probably other Italophiles. :)
bug·bear 
Function: noun
1 : an imaginary goblin or specter used to excite fear
2 a : an object or source of dread b : a continuing source of irritation 
: PROBLEM
-- 
Un-not my address if you wanna reply.

, 
fam.baldu...@tin.it
 says...


And this is exACTly what I mean! AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
Unless, of course, you're telling me I can *always* count on that *rule*, 
in which case, Grazie moltissimissime.
If so, methinks me must copy it down and make haste to learn therefrom.


Ciao, FB
ciao
 ALEx

 sarebbe evoluta sulla terra..."
Infatti. "Se l'acqua non esistesse, la vita non si evolverebbe".
Ciao, FB

 Italian.
I once heard "you would have lost this house if it weren't for me"; it
didn't sound so bad as it would have done in Italian.
P.S. I was uncertain whether to use "as it would have" or "as it would have
done". I think there is a British vs. American English difference. What do
y'all think?
Bye, FB

 Bye, FB


 sarebbe evoluta sulla terra..."
Mah, io la trovo accettabile. Il presente, in questo caso, esprime una 
condizione atemporale. Stiamo parlando, cioč, dell'inesistenza dell'acqua 
tout court, non del fatto che in un certo momento nel passato l'acqua non 
ci fosse.
Max


In effetti penso anch'io che nel linguaggio "di tutti i giorni"
nessuno storcerebbe il naso sentendo una frase del genere.
Ma se vogliamo essere "pignoli" e seguire rigidamente le regole della
grammatica, l'espressione "Se l'acqua non esistesse" si riferisce
senza dubbio all'esistenza nel presente. 
E' vero perň che in molti casi č utilizzata in senso assoluto, ma
solo perchč intesa "comunemente" come "Se l'acqua non fosse mai
esistita", che sarebbe la forma grammaticalmente corretta.
ciao
 ALEx

"If water hadn't existed, life would not have evolved on Earth."
I think the first one is acceptable.  Grammatically speaking, the second one is
better, but you would not hear that too often around here. 
bye
ari

"If he/she/it were...."
Really?  Or is the verb "to be" is the only verb where  the subjunctive is
different from the indicative?
If I had money, I would travel around the world.  Isn't "had" subjunctive?
If I worked, I'd be able to pay my rent.  Isn't "worked" a subjunctive?
If I were rich, I'd be able to pay my rent.
If "were" is subjunctive, than "worked" is too as they both present a
hypothetical situation.
I know it's the same as the indicative in these verbs, but as far as tenses go,
aren't those subjunctives?  I'm not arguing with you, but just asking.  I
always thought that those sentences which in English we label as 2nd and 3rd
conditional required the subjunctive and the conditional.
bye
ari

Italian.
In regards to this comment, I think English speakers use subjunctive
forms more than they realize, confusing it with a past-tense form.
The subjunctive is the mood of a clause; so it is a logical "entity."
It just so happens that in many languages, clausal mood is borne out
on the verb (just like tense), and not all languages overtly realize
clausal moods in the same way or necessarily at all (it's the same
with tense, cf. Chinese).
People often say that the subjunctive is dead in English.  However, I
think it's just something we don't ever study and we don't use it as
robustly as some other languages.  (Similarly, our verbal
person-number inflections are meager compared to other languages such
as Italian.)   Even when someone non-standardly says "If I was you/If
I was rich, I would be happy" instead of "If I were you/If I were
rich, I would be happy," you have to wonder:  why is that person even
using "was"?  What does the past have to do with contrary-to-fact
statements?  Somehow the simple past and the (imperfect?) subjunctive
have more or less morphologically merged.  ("Was" seems to be the new
"were.")  Because of this, it's hard to distinguish a simple past from
an imperfect subjunctive.  Other than "were/was," we are
morphologically unaware of the subjunctive.  That doesn't mean it
doesn't exist.
Subjunctive examples:
a.  If I had 20 dollars, I would buy a DVD. == "had" = subjunctive
b.  If I had gone to the dance, then I wouldn't be bored now.  == "had
gone" = subjunctive
(Why is this subjunctive?
--"Had I gone to the dance, I would be less bored now."
You can't do this with a non-subjunctive clause:
(and you can only do it with an "auxiliary" verb---but this has to do
with factors independent of the subjunctive mood)
--If I sing well tonight, I will be happy.
*Sing I well tonight . . .
--If I caused you pain, then I am sorry.
*Caused I you pain . . .  
--If I have come too early, then I am sorry.
*Have I come too early, then I am sorry.
If I may/could/might come over today  . .   ~ May/could/might I come
over today,  . . 
("May/could/might I" can only be interpreted as a question)
c. Were it such that I could  . . . .
    Were he able to come  . . .
 
d.  Should I decide to . . . =  If I should decide to . . .
e. Had he had any conflakes in the house this morning, he wouldn't
have had to go to the store.  (That's a lot of "had.")
f.  If I died today, I would . .  . == "died" = subjunctive
g.  = "If I were to die today, I would . . ."
--Were I to die today, I wouldn't regret a thing.
h.  If I were to go to the store now, then I would have something to
eat later == "were to go" = subjunctive structure
--Were he to go to the store, he woud find something to eat
N.B. "were to Infinitive" is a commonly used structure.
i.  I demand that he be here.  "Be" is in a finite clause.  This must
be a subjunctive.
j.  I asked that he go.  "Go" must be in the subjunctive here because
this is a finite clause.
k.  I insist that she stay.  "stay" =  subjunctive
     I insisted that she stay.
l.  He wishes he had your life.  "had" = subjunctive
m.  I wish I led your life.   "led" = subjunctive
etc.
-AZ

 
-- 


 forms more than they realize, confusing it with a past-tense form.
Thanks, AZ. You confirmed my recent suspicions, and I do stand corrected. 
And a special thanks for obviating the need for me to go dig out an 
English grammar book! :-)


 I may stand corrected here
I'm not sure if I understand. The only construction like that I've found
is: "to stand accused of...". What did you mean?
Ciao, FB

, 
fam.baldu...@tin.it
 says...

"I stand corrected" is a common way of saying "I screwed up" without 
having to really admit it. :-)
It also implies a small amount of deference to the person who corrected 
me, I think.


uncommon in AmEng (you may know this already) 
LOL...I live in SF, a city where the  % of  foreign born, LEP (limited English
proficiency) residents is very high.  I also work in a school where ESL
learners constitute the biggest portion of the student population.  Believe
me....I know about "If I was..I would...".  I already told  you ...we don't
speak English good over here.
bye
ari

 
Yeah. My friends think I'm weird.
:-)   I smile, because I *know* I'm weird.
PS: I forgot Hindi, Gaelic, Hebrew, Yiddish, Romanian, Brazilian 
Portuguese, Afrikaans, Japanese, Greek, Bulgarian, Something-I-Can't-
Even-Read and Finnish. (I think there's a Basque grammar there, too.)
(Yikes. I really *am* weird.)
Not that I can speak most of them, not at all. Over the years I've just 
become interested in one thing or another about a certain language, and 
so I got a book.


:-)   I smile, because I *know* I'm weird.
Well, in that case you belong on the West Coast.  You'd blend right in over
here.
bye
ari

 "If water hadn't existed, life would not have evolved on Earth."
This phrase is correct