Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Election Day

Will the English people who live abroad vote? 
I understand Blair is bound to win, since he did lie, but nobody wants a
tory -- Michael Howard -- governing GB, and the Scottish guy, I presume, is
a sort of Bertinotti. Am I correct?
Bye, FB
-- 
"Oh oh... Oh my God. My parents are having an affair."
(Gilmore Girls - 512)

Gli inglesi residenti all'estero possono votare per posta se ne hanno fatto
richiesta al loro ufficio elettorale, sempreche' ne siano ancora iscritti,
ovvero abbiano conservato un indirizzo di residenza in Inghilterra, dove
ricevono la posta.
Il sistema elettorale inglese e' molto basato sull' "high trust". Se vuoi ti
posso iscrivere io all'ufficio elettorale di Stoke-on-Trent, dando
l'indirizzo di casa mia, anche se magari tu non sei mai stato in
Inghilterra, e ti faccio votare comodamente da casa tua in Italia (i
cittadini EU residenti in Inghilterra ovviamente hanno diritto di voto).
Recentemente ho visto in tv una storia di una casa di proprieta' di un
candidato dove sono registrati piu' di una decina di elettori extra, i
quali, guarda caso, hanno fatto tutti richiesta di votare per posta.
E' chiaro che la cosa non e' legale, ma, a parte chi la fa sporca come nel
caso citato, non c'e' modo che nessuno sospetti di nulla. Questo perche' qui
non esistono le carte di identita' e lo stato non ha il diritto di sapere
dove abitano i cittadini, ma si deve fidare.
Alle stazioni elettorali poi non c'e' nemmeno un poliziotto. La scheda
elettorale si piega in 2 parti, non in dieci, e non esiste una cabina a
prova di telecamere, ma si vota su un banco. Non c'e' bisogno di documento
di riconoscimento, ne' tanto meno della cartolina elettorale che ti hanno
recapitato nella buca postale. Basta dire come ti chiami e anche che nessuno
abbia gia' votato col nome e l'indirizzo di casa tua. Cosa peraltro
improbabile perche' gran parte degli inglesi non vota nemmeno a nome suo!
ciao
antonio

 a sort of Bertinotti. Am I correct?
Right on the money.

 my opinion.
I've heard an Englishman say that the English people wouldn't want a Tory
government.
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
"Something to take to the country." (holding out a bunch of flowers)
"Flowers come _from_ the country, Charles."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

 the reason to support the US in the Iraqi war. 
"The reason for supporting".
[...]
Ciao, FB
-- 
If you knock on my door and I call out "Who is it?", you, as a normal
person, knowing that I would recognize your voice, would say "It's me". If
you said "It is I", I would not be nearly so inclined to let you in.
(Geoffrey K. Pullum - 
http://snipurl.com/bhtu
)

 the reason to support the US in the Iraqi war. 
I don't think "unfair" can possibly be what you mean.
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 the reason to support the US in the Iraqi war.
D'accordo, pero' tu hai detto "Blair e' destinato a vincere poiche' ha
mentito".
"The reason to support" o "the reason for supporting" e' piu' o meno lo
stesso.

 I don't think "unfair" can possibly be what you mean.
I mean "disonesto", but I didn't give it much thought. Why is it incorrect
here?
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 mentito".
Read it again: (smiling face)
"I understand Blair is bound to win, since he did lie, but nobody wants a
tory -- Michael Howard -- governing GB"
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
Just as I thought. Another test that could have cost us our lives, saved
only by the fact that I am enormously well-bred.
(Murder by Death)

government.
We'll find out tomorrow.

 here?
"Disonesto" is "dishonest", or "a liar".
"Unfair" means "sleale, ingiusto".
-- 
Mary

 tory -- Michael Howard -- governing GB"
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "since he did lie" either.
Non c'è dubbio che vincerà perché ha mentito?
Forse intendi "although he lied" (anche se ha mentito)?
-- 
Mary

 Will the English people who live abroad vote?
Not me - after 15 years abroad they take away your right to vote.
And I can't vote in Italy either.
-- 
Mary

 tory -- Michael Howard -- governing GB"
Just to put it straight:
I understand Blair is bound to win, since although he did lie, nobody wants
a tory governing GB.



"I understand that Blair is bound to win"
Why is he going to win?
"Since it is true that he lied [1], and yet nobody wants a tory government"
that is
"Dal momento che è vero che ha mentito, ma è anche vero che nessuno vuole
un governo conservatore".
[1] Or he's thought to have lied. That's not the point here.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)

 prova di telecamere, ma si vota su un banco.
Allora le cose sono cambiate - l'ultima volta che ho votato in GB, c'era
la cabina, ma era tanti anni fa.
-- 
Mary

 un governo conservatore".
Then you definitely need the word "although", otherwise the sentence
doesn't mean what you want it to.
-- 
Mary

 a sort of Bertinotti. Am I correct?
Who, Kennedy, the Lib Dem leader?
Somewhat to the right of Bertinotti...
-- 
Mary

 here?
"unfair" would be me giving you one gingerbread man and Sebapop
three, or saying that men could drive cars and women couldn't,
or something like that.


 government.
Rather a sweeping generalisation, considering they're not all that far
behind the Labour party in the polls.
But certainly many Labour voters who were disgusted with Blair's
behaviour over Iraq will still vote Labour rather than risk a
Conservative government getting in.
-- 
Mary

 doesn't mean what you want it to.
I don't understand: "dal momento" is "since", not "although". What I mean
is:
"he's bound to win because he did lie (it is true that he lied), but it is
also true that..."
"he's bound to win since on one hand people think he lied, but on the other
hand nobody wants...".
Do you find the Italian sentence illogical as well, or is it because "he
did lie" doesn't convey the sense of "yes, he lied, but..." that "è vero
che" conveys?
Bye, FB
-- 
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?" "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability" "It is obviously the same person".


 Somewhat to the right of Bertinotti...
I'm sorry. What do you mean by "to the right"? I don't know of what kind of
party he's the leader.
Bye, FB
-- 
"It sounds appalling!"
"Interesting and appalling. The others just sound appalling!"


> And I can't vote in Italy either.
You mean that you cannot vote for the Italian Parliament but surely you can
vote for the Italian local elections. Here is information about British
overseas voters:
"If you live in a country that is member of the European Union, you can vote
in that country's local and European Parliamentary elections"
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/files/dms/OverseasvotingEC23-1_15610-11566__E__N__S__W__.pdf
Funny enough, I have just come back from the polls where I have only been
given one ballot paper for the local election and denied the one for the
general election.
It turns out that I am not entitled to vote for UK Parliament, which is fine
by me, only that 4 years ago I did!
Good job that this is the UK. Had it been in Italy, the Army would have
opened fire on me.
Last time I was living in a different town, where they did not even have
cabins, no wonder they did not know the law.

 by me, only that 4 years ago I did!
I'm at a loss for words. How Italian a thing!
[...]
Bye, FB
-- 
After a year of speculation, inventor Dean Kamen unveiled his mysterious
"It", which is a battery-powered two-wheel people mover. Many believe it
will completely revolutionize the way people get hit by cars.
(Saturday Night Live)

 by me, only that 4 years ago I did!
Goodness, somebody boobed... 
-- 
Mary

 che" conveys?
That's right.
If you want to convey the same meaning, you have to say "although". 
"He's bound to win because he did lie" just sounds like a weird way of
saying "he's bound to win because he lied", which is not what you mean.
-- 
Mary

 party he's the leader.
"I don't know what kind of party he's the leader of" would be more
idiomatic.
He's the leader of the Liberal Democrats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Kennedy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats_(UK)
-- 
Mary

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats_(UK)
It's a mess: a sort of Lega + Radicali party.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Oh oh... Oh my God. My parents are having an affair."
(Gilmore Girls - 512)

 It's a mess: a sort of Lega + Radicali party.
No, nothing like the Lega - they're not racists.
-- 
Mary

 wrote in message
news:427A7686...@spamfinito.it...

I don't understand why you can't vote. Is it because of your
citizenship status, or dual nationality, or what? It doesn't seem
right.
They are always willing to let people vote in Chicago, if you really
feel the need.   :>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 three
Nope, that would just be common sense. ;)
Sebastiano
P.S.
FB, I can have one gingerbread leg delivered to you for twenty bucks. The
Muffin Man of Drury Lane will see to it. Oh wait, since you prefer BrE let
me be honest and ask you twenty quids, and that's cuttin' me own throat!
Deal?

 world, because those are the elections that really count.
Ricordamelo quando ci saranno tali elezioni e scriverò sulla scheda "Mary
was here!" :)
Sebastiano

 right.
I can't vote in England, because you lose your right to vote there when
you've been away for 15 years.
I can't vote in Italian general elections because I don't have Italian
citizenship.
I could take out Italian citizenship if I wanted to, but I'd have to
renounce my British citizenship.
Suppose I decided to move back to the UK later, the whole problem would
start up again.
It's a silly situation which a lot of people must be in, and the EU
doesn't seem interested in doing anything about it.
-- 
Mary

 was here!" :)
Not unless you want to spoil your ballot paper :-)
-- 
Mary

 Deal?
The word of the day:
bargain 
n.
1 affare (anche leg. e nel senso di: buon affare, affarone): At this price,
it's a bargain, a questo prezzo è un affare
2 (anche leg.) contratto di compravendita
3 (leg.) accordo; transazione
4 (market.) occasione; offerta speciale.
Bye, FB
-- 
Nasalization is just a part of life.
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 me be honest and ask you twenty quids, and that's cuttin' me own throat!
quid, unless you are talking about chewing tobacco


 me be honest and ask you twenty quids
20 quid.
-- 
Mary

 wrote in message
news:427B2FCB...@spamfinito.it...

My parents were both immigrants from Ireland, and my father got his US
citizenship as soon as he could. My mother, on the other hand, never
bothered to apply for citizenship. Every year she had to go to the
Post Office and fill out a resident alien form.
When I joined the Army, I had intended to go to a particular school,
but was informed that because my mother wasn't a citizen, I did not
qualify. I settled for another school. Shortly after, my mother became
a citizen, so that my two brothers did not have this obstacle when
they went into the Army.
It all turned out for the best, because I probably wouldn't have made
my way to Italy if I had been able to attend the school I wanted!
Joe from Massachusetts

 quid, unless you are talking about chewing tobacco
Oh, sorry. :)
Sebastiano

 20 quid.
I was rolling a joint of chewed tobacco and I got confused. ;)
Sebastiano

 Not unless you want to spoil your ballot paper :-)
Well, I would do that for you. :)
Oppure, quando ci sono le elezioni, mi dici cosa vuoi votare e lo voto io,
solo perché mi da fastidio il fatto che tu non possa votare da noi.
Sebastiano

 feel the need.   :>)
Can I? :)
Sebastiano


Goodness, how selfless!
I don't suppose the Monster Raving Looney Party has a candidate round
here, though...
-- 
Mary

>
Just one silly aspect of our electoral rules .
I wonder if non-Brits fully appreciate  how our first-past-the-post 
constituency system effectively disenfranchises millions of people ? In this 
election (with three results not yet in) Labour got 35.4% of the votes cast 
, but 55% (355) of the seats in Parliament ; the Conservatives , with 32.4% 
of the total votes , have 30.5% (197) of the seats ; and the Lib-Dems , with 
22.1% of the vote , get 9.6% (61 seats) . So , having suffered Thatcher for 
15 years , we've now got to put up with Blair's shifty smirk for a third 
term . Italians and other European nations may elect creeps , but at least 
it's much easier to get rid of them once they're exposed .
As for the business of voting when you're not entitled to , as antonio did , 
this is likely to become much easier . Our region has twice had trial runs 
(one local elections , one the European elections) for the all-postal vote ; 
in the first , I voted three times then owned up , in an attempt to show how 
open to fraud the system was ; despite the inevitable failure of their 
assiduous attempts to prosecute me , despite the exposure in public debate 
of the ineradicable weaknesses of the system, and despite the advice of the 
Electoral Commission , they still went ahead with the second trial in five 
regions ; only  several attempts at fraud on an industrial scale , which 
came to light because of the astonishing ineptness with which they were 
executed , saved us from an all-postal vote in this election . However , 
since the conduct of elections is the responsibility of that bullying fool 
Prescott (Deputy Prime Minister) , neither experience nor logic is likely to 
save us from another attempt to force the system on us .
Mike 

 here, though...
LOL
Sebastiano


You think I'm joking? They really exist, and they stand every year. They
put up a candidate against Blair in his constituency.
-- 
Mary



A dead person can't vote, either, but he's dead more than anything else. I
seem to understand that Mary prefers not to acquire the Italian
citizenship; nonetheless, she could acquire it, couldn't she? 
At first, the fact that one cannot vote in one's own a country after living
abroad for many years also seems sensible to me. He would be less informed
about the state of things there, so that he would probably be an
I-vote-Labour or an I-vote-Tory voter, much as those who "votano la
sinistra" or "votano la destra" at all costs in Italy. I'm not sure that
the Italian people who live abroad should vote. Think of how a politician
could take them in, if not us (I would hope), with his lies.
Bye, FB
-- 
"May I come with you to the station?"
"Please, do. I like to go off in style."


 constituency system effectively disenfranchises millions of people 
True, but the proportional representation system also has its drawbacks.
One of the main ones is that many MPs aren't accountable to voters,
because they're picked by the party on the basis of the number of votes
it gets.
The FPTP sysem has the advantage that if you don't like what your local
MP's doing, you can vote against him next time.
Another drawback of PR is that it tends to lead to a long series of hung
Parliaments and coalition governments, as we've had in Italy, until the
system was practically abandoned recently.
-- 
Mary

 abroad for many years also seems sensible to me. 
And me.
But the situation should be standardised throughout the EU, which it
isn't at present.
People should be allowed to vote in the country where they pay their
taxes, or where they've lived for a certain number of years, otherwise
they're penalised for exercising the right to free movement of labour in
the EU. 
-- 
Mary

 put up a candidate against Blair in his constituency.
LOL, and this time for real! :)
Sebastiano


Obviously you have much more direct experience of this than I - I know 
countries have very different problems to deal with , so comparisons are 
perhaps impossible , but would you say that during this series of coalitions 
, etc ., Italy has developed less successfully than the UK , or that Italian 
governments have been less responsive to the wishes of the people than 
British ones ?
I've always had the impression (maybe dated , and due to being in France 
around 1960 , and to the political concerns of a lot of Italian novels I've 
read from the period just before and after the last war) that the French and 
Italians are more interested , and active , in political matters than we are 
;  I wonder if our political apathy isn't partly due to widespread 
frustration at lack of choice - anyone with , let's say , a passionate 
concern for the environment , strongly-held left-wing convictions , etc, etc 
, has no hope of representation - we will never have a Green MP , we'll 
never have a Socialist (let alone a communist ) MP ; nor , for that matter , 
will we ever have a right-wing MP on the lines of Jean-Marie Le Pen  ; do 
many Italians feel quite this same sense of hopelessness , which scarcely 
makes for a healthy national political life ?
Mike
Mike 

 wrote in message
news:1c3qavn5xod7y.179p9lawnw488$.dlg@40tude.net...

You could, if they didn't still have you on the rolls in New York.
:>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 makes for a healthy national political life ?
Assuming you are being serious when asking this question, no, it is nowhere
near the same in Italy.
I have to hand it to you though, that we have a much bigger turn-out at the
polls, but that is for another reason.
The Italians support their political parties in the same fashion that they
support their favourite football teams. They back them up as if it will make
a world of difference whoever wins, well aware that they all play the same
game and want the same thing. That is the level of the sense of hopelessness
for politics in Italy.
The political debates so often televised are no different from the many
football tv programs. They never talk about real issues but only about
allegiances between the parties and chances to make their way in the table.
The sad thing is that they get a high share of viewers.
When it is poll time, the Italians enjoy it just like going to the Stadium.
Being the Parliament, Comune, Provincia o Regione, not to mention the
multitude of silly Referendums (everyone knows they are completely useless),
they are at the polls more or less every year, sometimes even more than once
a year.
It does not matter how much this costs to them, it is money well spent for
the fun they have.
The whole of our police force is not enough to guard the polls and they get
the Army out. So they walk past loaded machine guns, wearing their best tie
(the men) and their best frock (the women) before they can get their kick in
the privacy of the booth, by putting the cross in the ballot paper.
Every candidate spends ten times over the wages that they will get if they
are elected, and there is always that big "if".
How can this not mean anything?.
As regards to you voting 3 times and then asking to be prosecuted, I am
sorry I don't agree with what you have done.
Ok, I did vote when I was not entitled, but that was a genuine mistake by me
and whoever invited me to. It is a good job we have the FPTP in the UK and
my vote did not change a thing, otherwise I would feel guilty now.
I too am against the all-postal vote, only because it causes disruption with
the ordinary mail and because it is founded on the wrong principle that
people do not vote because they cannot physically go to the poll station,
rather than out of their own respectable choice.
But I am all in favour of a high trust system, because it always all comes
down to trust, which is the most efficient way to run a system and often the
most infallible, because it is easier to detect someone who misplaces trust
than someone who finds loopholes in a tight system.
antonio

 have to take into account the people who have voted for such extremes?
Sorry, I said "supposedly" but I meant "inevitably".


Have you got a split personality , antonio ? (smiling face) A moment ago you
were all cynical , now you seem to have an ingenuous faith in the integrity
of your fellowmen . The whole point in relation to the postal vote is that
it is totally impossible to detect fraud (especially on a small scale) ,
that  even if admitted to  it is impossible to prove , and that it is
impossible to provide safeguards against it . When the stakes are high , I
think it's safest to assume that some people will play dirty . I hope you
don't play poker with people you don't know .
Mike

Hi Mike, I just want to make quickly 3 points:
1 All extremists are nutters. As much as you and I can care about the
environment, if a Green man (like some do) says that we should not build any
more new roads, or perhaps we should give up cars altoghether, he is a
nutter. I don't see what good it would be to have such a person sitting in
the Parliament. The moderate guy who has lost some votes to this person,
however, has to take at least some of his views into account, otherwise one
day he may lose his seat.
2 You Brits are a funny lot. You all moan that your Government is the worst
in the (West) world, but then if they ask you if you would want to do away
with your Government and be ruled by the guys in Bruxells (that you don't
know anything about), you would not have it. Because, deep inside, you know
that things are not that bad after all.
Ask the same question to the Italians, including the staunchest supporter of
their favourite party, and they would be up for it any time. Because, deep
inside, they believe that anything is better than an Italian Government.
3 I am sorry I gave you the impression of having a split personality
(faccina sorridente). The integrity of the Italians is so low for the very
reason that in our system there is no room for trust. You may not even know
for example that we have a special military armed police force just to check
that we pay our tax and if they catch us evading one single cent (even by
mistake), they come down on us like a ton of bricks. As a result, any
Italian would evade tax, given the opportunity of not being caught.
antonio

 don't play poker with people you don't know .
Never play poker with anyone if you are not willing to lose money! How dull
a world it would be without poker, though! :)
-- 
Enrico C
==================================
it-alt.politica.referendum
(I si e i no che dividono gli italiani)

 a world it would be without poker, though! :)
IT: What if I said "how dull a world would it be...", even if it's not a
question?
Bye, FB
-- 
In any case, if you say 'I gotta go' at an important job interview you're
contributing to being allowed just that privilege.
(Tony the ice man on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)