Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Are dying languages worth saving?

How people are trying to preserve endangered languages
Language experts are gathering at a university in the UK to discuss 
saving the world's endangered languages. But is it worth keeping alive 
dialects that are sometimes only spoken by a handful of people, asks 
Tom de Castella?
"Language is the dress of thought," Samuel Johnson once said.
About 6,000 different languages are spoken around the world. But the 
Foundation for Endangered Languages estimates that between 500 and 
1,000 of those are spoken by only a handful of people. And every year 
the world loses around 25 mother tongues. That equates to losing 250 
languages over a decade - a sad prospect for some.
This week a conference in Carmarthen, Wales, organised by the 
foundation, is being attended by about 100 academics. They are 
discussing indigenous languages in Ireland, China, Australia and Spain.
"Different languages will have their quirks which tell us something 
about being human," says Nicholas Ostler, the foundation's chairman.
"And when languages are lost most of the knowledge that went with them 
gets lost. People do care about identity as they want to be different. 
Nowadays we want access to everything but we don't want to be thought 
of as no more than people on the other side of the world."
Apart from English, the United Kingdom has a number of other languages. 
Mr Ostler estimates that half a million people speak Welsh, a few 
thousand Scots are fluent in Gaelic, about 400 people speak Cornish, 
while the number of Manx speakers - the language of the Isle of Man - 
is perhaps as small as 100. But is there any point in learning the 
really minor languages?
"I do think it's a good thing for a child on the Isle of Man to learn 
Manx. I value continuity in a community."
Last speaker dies
In Europe, Mr Ostler's view seems to command official support. There is 
a European Charter for Regional Languages, which every European Union 
member has signed, and the EU has a European Language Diversity For All 
programme, designed to protect the most threatened native tongues. At 
the end of last year the project received 2.7m euros to identify those 
languages most at risk.
But for some this is not just a waste of resources but a 
misunderstanding of how language works. The writer and broadcaster 
Kenan Malik says it is "irrational" to try to preserve all the world's 
languages.
Earlier this year, the Bo language died out when an 85-year-old member 
of the Bo tribe in the India-owned Andaman islands died.
While it may seem sad that the language expired, says Mr Malik, 
cultural change is driving the process.
"In one sense you could call it a cultural loss. But that makes no 
sense because cultural forms are lost all the time. To say every 
cultural form should exist forever is ridiculous." And when governments 
try to prop languages up, it shows a desire to cling to the past rather 
than move forwards, he says.
If people want to learn minority languages like Manx, that is up to 
them - it shouldn't be backed by government subsidy, he argues.
"To have a public policy that a certain culture or language should be 
preserved shows a fundamental misunderstanding. I don't see why it's in 
the public good to preserve Manx or Cornish or any other language for 
that matter." In the end, whether or not a language is viable is very 
simple. "If a language is one that people don't participate in, it's 
not a language anymore."
The veteran word-watcher and Times columnist Philip Howard agrees that 
languages are in the hands of people, not politicians. "Language is the 
only absolutely true democracy. It's not what professors of linguistics 
or academics or journalists say, but what people do. If children in the 
playground start using "wicked" to mean terrific then that has a big 
effect."
The former Spanish dictator Franco spent decades trying to stamp out 
the nation's regional languages but today Catalan is stronger than ever 
and Basque is also popular.
And Mr Howard says politicians make a "category mistake" when they try 
to interfere with language, citing an experiment in Glasgow schools 
that he says is doomed to fail. "Offering Gaelic to children of people 
who don't speak it seems like a conservation of lost glories. It's very 
romantic to try and save a language but nonsense."
But neither is he saying that everyone should speak English. "Some 
people take a destructivist view and argue that everyone will soon be 
speaking English. But Mandarin is the most populous language in the 
world and Spanish the fastest growing."
There are competing forces at work that decide whether smaller 
languages survive, Howard argues. On the one hand globalisation will 
mean that many languages disappear. But some communities will always 
live apart, separated by sea, distance or other barriers and will 
therefore keep their own language. With modern communications and 
popular culture "you find that if enough people want to speak a 
language they can".
In short, there is no need for handwringing.
"Language is not a plant that rises and falls, lives and decays. It's a 
tool that's perfectly adapted by the people using it. Get on with 
living and talking."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11304255
-- 
groetjes Renée
Humor is everywhere, in that there's irony in just about anything a 
human does.
Bill Nye, Interview with Wired.com, April 2005

 
Would you let a Roman monument fall to pieces?
Would you let a medieval manuscript be eaten by rats and moths?
-- 
"Most of the time I don't have much fun. The rest of the time I
don't have any fun at all."
                -- Woody Allen

 Would you let a medieval manuscript be eaten by rats and moths?
non per questo ti metti a scrivere su pergamena invece che su carta 
normale (costerebbe troppo -> il sapere non potrebbe essere piu' cosi' 
diffuso).
--------------
(faccio un discorso di dinamica)
Per tornare a noi: per la prima volta nella storia dell'uomo, la Terra 
"ci sta stretta" (quasi). Non c'è (quasi) punto della Terra che si può 
considerare isolato.
Ora, mutuando le analisi dinamiche sulla nascita di una mutazione 
genetica, sulla sua affermazione e sulla sua diffusione, vediamo le 
condizioni per far nascere una cosa nuova (una mutuazione genetica, come 
la tolleranza al lattosio in età adulta, o una nuova lingua).
Si vede che è assolutamente necessario l'isolamento geografico.
Questo perché se "casualmente" nasce questa cosa nuova deve potersi 
assestare in un numero sufficientemente grande per poter resistere e non 
essere cancellato o confuso col "rumore di fondo".
In generale c'è un numero di persone ed un grado di isolamento minimi 
per la sopravvivenza di un carattere (genetico, o qualitativo, come una 
lingua, un'usanza, qualsiasi cosa).
Pensa se gli Stati Uniti non fossero stati isolati, ossia pensa se ogni 
immigrato dopo essersi stabilito in america, avesse poi potuto sposarsi 
con un qualsiasi cittadino mondiale. Immagina uno scozzese, che ha 
portato con sé il vocabolo "lad", invece di lasciare questo vocabolo in 
eredità, tornava in Europa e sposava una ungherese.
Non era così. Io ebreo dell'est andavo in america, mi sposavo tra ebrei 
dell'est, però interagivo con gli altri americani, ed alla fine ogni 
tanto qualcuno si sposava fuori klan. Così si è creato l'americano.
Oggi giorno non ha senso stare a difendere (troppo) le vecchie lingue. 
Non ha molto senso insegnare ai bambini piccoli il Manx.
Non dico che vadano dimenticati, dico solo che hanno assolto il loro 
compito. Sarebbe come insegnare a _parlare_ il latino. Non ha molto 
senso, se non a livello ultra-specialistico.
Questo non significa che non si creeranno piu' nuove lingue. Intanto il 
mondo non è (ancora) così non-isolato, e ci vorrà un bel po' per creare 
solo una lingua. Prima di allora, l'uomo inizierà a colonizzare altri 
mondi, per forza di cose isolati. In questi mondi, nei singoli 
continenti, si creeranno nuovi linguaggi, per forza originati da quelli 
dei primi coloni.
Pensa a quelle piccole comunità pugliesi in cui si parla una strano 
greco (il griko, o grecanico), o la versione calabrese...ancora diversa.
Non bisogna avere paura dei cambiamenti.

 Would you let a medieval manuscript be eaten by rats and moths?
We have this little joke: What do you do with your old cloths?
Answer: I wear them.
Quote: "In one sense you could call it a cultural loss. But that makes 
no sense because cultural forms are lost all the time."
This quote, concerning a language, means in my opinion, that a language 
evoluates all the time. Words and meanings are changed all the time.
Although I don't believe one can compare every old / antique object 
with eachother, I do believe that every language should be and can 
easily be  preserved because it says something important about a group 
of people. Nowadays, with modern techniques, it must me easy to 'stock' 
a language.
To answer your questions: no and no :)
Should everything that is 'retro' be destroyed?
What is the definition, where is the line here..?
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 livello ultra-specialistico.
Exactly, but it should be possible at all times to 'consult' the 
language, to investigate it, to learn it whenever somebody wants. Such 
a 'lost 'language could be important to understand people.
The past is important for the present and the future, but the future 
will be past and be important for the 'next 'future :)
I don't believe that objects like Roman monuments should be destroyed, 
but when they are lost or destroyed because of a reason then it is like 
that...... They will remain in books, on the Internet, etc..
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 a language.
So far, so good.
But your post was about "dying languages" and "endangered languages"
spoken by only a handful of people.
I guess a language is said to be "dead" when nobody actually speaks it
any longer as his or her main language, not just as a subject of
study.
So, modern techniques may well "stock" a language, but what about
"keeping alive"?
That's another kettle of fish, you know. :-)

edevils submitted this idea :
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I threw all languages on one pile, dead or not. :) I would like to keep 
them all. A language is there for a reason; for communication, to 
transmit culture, etc..
Even if the language is spoken by a handful, I would like to keep it. 
It is worth it.
You are right about keeping them alive. That is very difficult if there 
are no more people who want or can speak it. So keeping it in stock for 
further investigations is the only possibility. At least the words are 
is still there.
btw...strange to put fish in a kettle.....must be English cooking lol
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 btw...strange to put fish in a kettle.....must be English cooking lol
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/1288.html
and
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ket1.htm
and btw
http://www.fishkettle.co.uk/

 that...... They will remain in books, on the Internet, etc..
Would you have a 3dimensional scanning of Colosseum made, and than have 
it blown to smithereens, and then maybe just to build up a new 
skyscraper on its spot? (otherwise what for?)
You confusing map with territory.

 
http://www.fishkettle.co.uk/
I know...I was making fun about English cooking and a phrase that says: 
I'll put the kettle on. I just saw fish in there.I am a visual 
thinker.B-) 
http://images.oneofakindantiques.com/3229_antique_copper_kettle_1.jpg
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 Nowadays, with modern techniques, it must me easy to 'stock' a language.
no. it's impossible to preserve everything. it's mathematical: you 
cannot "backup" all the data, and then after a certain amount of time 
backup again all the date, including the old backup. The series explodes.
Then again, there are not enough resources to perform the backup for all 
the knowledge in the world. For all the genomas (all plant, all 
bacteria, all animals...), all paintings, all buildings, all languages, 
all cultures.
And then, even if you did that, would there be enough people interested 
and able to consult and make use of such knowledge?
ps take a look at 
www.archive.org

 You confusing map with territory.
What do you mean with that?
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 ps take a look at 
www.archive.org
Yep, well known website for me. I use it sometimes when data is lost.
I didn't imply to preserve all and everything :).  Words of a language 
can be preserved, like in dictionaries. The "fingerspitzengefühl", 
instinctive feeling of a language can not be preserved, that will be 
lost. So be it.
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 "keeping alive"?
uhm, we are not even really able to "stock" anything.
anyway, I remember my grandmother. Her first language was yiddish.
She didn't get almost _any_ chance to speak it after 1933...since she 
died in 2009 that makes 66 years without speaking one's first language.
had she lived in the US (certain cities) she'd have had the chance of 
speaking it. even new yiddish band are being formed everyday...
that of course is _not_ arbitrary imposed, but it's just happening 
naturally.
buddism says that human pain derives from our attachment to things that 
of course don't last forever, because nothing lasts forever. maybe only 
God, at least until there's a man that recognize It.
Oh wait, TWO men are required, so that one talks to the other (and of 
course they do not share the same opinion).

 they do not share the same opinion).
lol, aren't we men and women very human..
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 unite.... 
And then you should conquer France and Germany; many would help
you to that purpose; then you impose Dutch and Walloon as
official languages everywhere.
(Leave alone Luxembourg, though. :-)
-- 
"Experience is not what happens to a man; it is what a man does
with what happens to him."
                -- Aldous Huxley, Texts and Pretexts, 1932

 not be preserved, that will be lost. So be it.
-- 
"Women need a reason to have sex. Men just need a place."
                -- Billy Crystal

 (Leave alone Luxembourg, though. :-)
wow, that would be great, so many people who will have to learn useless 
Dutch and Walloon lol. Then we march to Italy and force Berlusconi to 
learn Walloon.....that would be too funny. If only you could understand 
Walloon, great language!
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undiscovered.
What we don't know, we don't know and doesn't have to be stored. That 
saves some place :)


 How people are trying to preserve endangered languages
Sono contrario sia all'omicidio sia all'accanimento terapeutico, come
per le persone. Preservare il catalano che, sebbene minacciato dal
castigliano, è vivo e vegeto mi sembra del tutto sensato (e quello che
la Lega Nord vuole fare con le lingue regionali d'Italia mi pare
l'unica proposta sensata mai uscita da quel movimento), tenere caldo
il cadavere del Cornish o del Manx spendendo un sacco di soldi no.
(Però brindare in irlandese fa troppo fico. Sláinte!)
Non sono sicuro che il paragone con il Colosseo sia così calzante: il
Colosseo può continuare a esistere anche se non vi si svolgono più
spettacoli di gladiatori, ma una lingua parlata una volta che non è
più usata non "esiste" più (per certi valori di "esistere", almeno...).

 What do you mean with that?
by?
anyway any representation is limited. reality cannot be mimicked by 
anything but itself.
in the middleages, people would study matters by reading others' studies 
about them, not by personally getting into the matter.
Salgari wrote about Indocina without ever being there.
You cannot confuse a representation with the reality it's trying to 
represent.
The representation might be limited technologically, but also 
/conceptually/. For instance until the 18-19 hundred a description of 
phenomena would have left apart the magnetic and electric properties.
They just didn't know that part of reality.
Sensibility too is involved. Nowadays I'd describe Japanese philosophy 
and religion in a way. 200 years ago in another would.
Which description would you trust to substitute the actual thing.
Note that you possibly cannot make further studies based on some report 
done at an earlier stage of the study itself.

 certi valori di "esistere", almeno...).
Quindi se il Colosseo va in rovina non spendiamo soldi per
tenerlo su?
-- 
Tess Skeffington: Twain picked up Sam in a gay bar.
Sam Diamond: I WAS WORKING ON A CASE!!!
Tess Skeffington: Every night for SIX MONTHS?!
                -- (Murder by Death, 1976)

 tenerlo su?
Credo che Army intendesse un'altra cosa. Possiamo e dobbiamo,
ovviamente, preservare il Colosseo come straordinario edificio, ma
sarebbe ben più difficile preservare il suo uso originario, perché
ormai gli spettacoli gladiatori (o i cristiani dati in pasto ai leoni)
sono un tantinello passati di moda! ;-)
Ovvero, una cosa è un monumento che si può sempre restaurare per
evitare che vada in rovina, altra cosa una lingua che resta "viva"
solo fin quando c'è una comunità che la usa attivamente.

 About 6,000 different languages are spoken around the world.
By the way, how did they count that number?
Does it include "dialects"?
How many languages do we speak in Italy, for instance? (not counting
foreign languages spoken here). How many languages do they speak in
the UK? How many languages in Ireland? How many languages in the USA?
How many in Canada? And Australia and NZ?

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Sì, intendevo quello. Applicato al caso della lingua, è OK preservare
scritti e registrazioni di lingue morte, ma non è OK costringere
bambini a imparare una lingua che non parleranno con nessuno.

 How many in Canada? And Australia and NZ?
Are Moldovan and Romanian two languages or two dialects of the same
language? If you ask a Romanian they'll answer they're one language,
if you ask a Moldovan they'll answer they're two.

 lol, aren't we men and women very human..
two jokes:
1) A man and Cladia Schiffer are the only survivor of a plane crash, 
onto a inhabited island. They are alone.
At first, they manage to get their life organized.
Slowly, the eventually fall in love into each other, and start to make sex.
Life is boring, there. Nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to see. 
They try everything, all the position, excluding threesome of course. 
They even try switching part, they build up their own 'sex toys', and so on.
It gets boring anyway.
The man ultimatly says to Claudia Schiffer: could you just dress up and 
mask as a men, and go to the other part of the island, and pretend you 
don't know me?
Puzzled but convinced, Claudia agrees. She dresses up as a men, with 
blue jeans and a t-shirt. She goes to the other part of the small island.
The man goes looking for 'her', and finds 'her'.
"Oh hi, you too stranded here? I thought there were no others..."
"?"
"You who I ended up with? Claudia Schiffer...and I screw her for morning 
till dusk...hehehe" :-))))))))
2) only the first one today! :)

 lost. So be it.
There is NO actual language that feature a fully comprehensive 
dictionary. They all lack something.
But apart to that...look at the local proprieties of a language. They 
are all condemned to get lost, as is everything that does not hold a 
sufficient amount of people who uses it shares it and pass it on to his 
offspring.

> not be preserved, that will be lost. So be it.
No, the point was falsely believing that the replica is as good as the 
original. That's confusing the map with the territory.

 How many in Canada? And Australia and NZ?
some Italian "dialects" are languages, some are not.
I think sardo e friulano are languages, milanese (lumbard?) or 
napoletano or siciliano are not.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/roma/3/uploads/questo_parlamentopdf/minoritarie_in_europa.pdf
note that I didn't mention any greki or grecanico, or 
cimbro...autochthonous of Italy

 if you ask a Moldovan they'll answer they're two.
ahahah...the same for Serb and Croatian... :-)))

 They all lack something.
yes, something will lack, but that's ok. I find languages important, 
for somebody else it might not. They can store something else. :)

edevils submitted this idea :
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In the Netherlands we have 2 official languages: Nederlands
and Fries ( Dutch and Frisian )

 bambini a imparare una lingua che non parleranno con nessuno.
Però spesso l'alternativa non è così chiara, cioè non si tratta di
"costringere" o "non costringere", ma di incentivare o disincentivare.
Per esempio, attraverso la scelta delle lingue che i bambini devono
usare a scuola.
A scuola si deve usare solo la lingua "ufficiale" di uno Stato oppure
possono coesistere anche le lingue minoritarie?
La scelta dipende spesso non solo dalla diffusione maggiore o minore,
ma anche da considerazioni politiche, sociali o di  utilità pratica.
Alcuni Paesi per esempio difendono il bilinguismo, altriinvece cercano
di imporre una lingua unica e scoraggiare quelle non ufficiali.
Inoltre, alcune lingue minoritarie sono riconosciute come tali e
godono dunque di tutela, altre invece non vengono riconosciute o
vengono classificate come "dialetti" e l'uso viene biasimato
socialmente e comunque bandito dalle scuole...

 and Fries ( Dutch and Frisian )
Sorry but you have at least three, according to Wikipedia :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburgish_language
Limburgish, also called Limburgian or Limburgic (Dutch: Limburgs,...
[...]
Official status
Official language in the Netherlands (as a regional language);

 if you ask a Moldovan they'll answer they're two.
Già, in quel caso la distinzione è solo nominale e politica.
The language spoken in Moldova is identical to Romanian, sharing the
same literary standard,[3]  but for political reasons both names
Moldovan and Romanian  are used inside the country.
[...]
In the Declaration of Independence[12]  of Moldova  (27 August 1991),
the official language was named "Romanian", but the 1994 constitution
declared Moldovan the state language.
When in 1992 the Romanian Academy changed the official orthography of
Romanian language, the Institute of Linguistics at the Academy of
Sciences of Moldova  did not make the changes, and the official
orthography continued as before until 2001 when the changes introduced
by the Romanian Academy were adopted by the Moldovan Academy[13].
A 1996 attempt by Moldovan president Mircea Snegur to change the
official language to "Romanian" was dismissed by the Moldovan
Parliament as promoting "Romanian expansionism".
In 2003, a Moldovan-Romanian dictionary (Dicţionar Moldovenesc-
Românesc (2003), by Vasile Stati) was published. The linguists of the
Romanian Academy in Romania declared that all the Moldovan words are
also Romanian words, although some of its contents are disputed as
being Russian loanwords. In Moldova, the head of the Academy of
Sciences' Institute of Linguistics, Ion Bărbuţă, described the
dictionary as "an absurdity, serving political purposes". Stati,
however, accused both of promoting "Romanian colonialism".
In the 2004 census, 16.5% (558,508) out of the 3,383,332 people living
in Moldova declared Romanian as their mother tongue, whereas 60%
declared Moldovan. While 40% of all urban Romanian/Moldovan speakers
declared Romanian as their mother tongue, in the countryside barely a
seventh of the Romanian/Moldovan speakers indicated Romanian as their
mother tongue.[14]
In October 2009, Vlad Filat, the new Prime Minister of Moldova,
announced that he intends to propose changes in the Constitution
regarding the name of the language, replacing "Moldovan" with
"Romanian".[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language

It happens that edevils formulated :
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Wiki is confusing this time :) Official languages are the ones 
mentioned above by me. Limburgian is an other story. They would love it 
to be an official language but it isn't (yet). It is officialy 
recognized as a "streektaal" which means a regional language in 1997. 
So, it is a language and not a dialect, but not a fully recognized 
language by the Dutch government like Dutch and Fries.
Here is the official text: 
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/erkende-talen/talen-in-nederland
 
Maybe you can Google let it translate it into italian.
Limburgs is also recognized by: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Bureau_for_Lesser-Used_Languages

edevils, 14:36, sabato 18 settembre 2010:
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Io faccio un discorso sul piano culturale.
Altrimenti se conta solo l'uso potresti farne uno nuovo di
plastica (tipo Disneyland®) da mettere al posto di quello
vecchio.
Antichi templi buddisti in Asia non vengono conservati, sono
continuamente rinnovati sostituendo le parti, è la loro idea e
non capiscono molto la nostra mania di conservare l'originale.
-- 
Lack of money is the root of all evil.
    -- George Bernard Shaw

 territory.
I seem to recall there is a JLBorges story about a map so
precise it was 1:1 with territory.
-- 
Rich bachelors should be heavily taxed. It is not fair that some
men should be happier than others.
    -- Oscar Wilde

 
La situazione del gallese mi pare abbastanza buona.
Siccome sei un bravo ricercatore in Rete, cerca qualcosa su
canali televisivi, radio, film, scuola in gallese.
-- 
A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into
superstition, and art into pedantry.  Hence University
education.
    -- G.B. Shaw

 La situazione del gallese mi pare abbastanza buona.
Pare sia addirittura in crescita, anche grazie all'insegnamento
obbligatorio nelle scuole.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/welsh.htm


Wonderful!

 What about Cornish, Welsh and Scottish Gaelic?
Il Cornish non è una lingua viva, è un cadavere riscaldato; inglese
gallese e gaelico sono sicuramente tre lingue, il "poco più di" è
perché non sono sicuro se considerare inglese e Scots, o gaelico
scozzese e irlandese dell'Ulster, dialetti della stessa lingua o meno.
(Se proprio dovessi scegliere, direi di no, e quindi che le lingue del
Regno Unito sono 5.)

 possono coesistere anche le lingue minoritarie?
La versione "standard" della lingua "ufficiale" del posto va
assolutamente insegnata il meglio possibile e le va data la priorità,
ma insegnare anche il dialetto/lingua tradizionale locale non farebbe
male. (È un peccato che ci siano così tante persone che sanno parlare
il napoletano ma non sanno scriverlo.)
Come mezzo di insegnamento per altre materie tipo scienze o educazione
fisica, penso che l'insegnante debba essere libero di poter usare
qualsiasi dialetto di qualsiasi lingua, purché gli studenti siano
d'accordo.
E di certo non si dovrebbero punire gli alunni se *tra di loro*
parlano una lingua/dialetto diversa da quella standard, come una volta
facevano in Galles.

 il napoletano non e' mai stato una lingua.
Prendi qualcuno cresciuto ad ovest del 13° meridiano da genitori
cresciuti ad ovest del 13° meridiano, fagli sentire una commedia
teatrale in napoletano, chiedigli quanto ne capisce e poi ne
riparliamo, eh.

 Wonderful!
the otherone is an old joke about two Jews only survivors of a ship wreck.
the first thing they do is to build TWO sinagogues...
but has to be told right, and in the right context :-)

 precise it was 1:1 with territory.
good, you see my point.

 riparliamo, eh.
che c'entra...ciò non ne fa una lingua.
tra l'altro, vedi se un napoletano capisce il Mulino del Po (lo 
sceneggiato in dialetto...ferrarese...se mi ricordo bene il titolo e il 
dialetto).
che c'entra...io da piccolo non riuscivo a capire neanche Troisi. poi 
sono cresciuto, ho girato, ho sentito altri suoni, ho ampliato il mio 
vocabolario fonetico...
qualsiasi dialetto molto stretto e molto veloce è impossibile da capire. 
il lucano, il calabrese, il siciliano, il molisano, l'abruzzese...ed ho 
dato solo denominazioni generiche, mentre sanno tutti che una cosa è il 
calabrese di raggio ed una quello di cosenza...
ciò non ne fa delle lingue diverse.

Giovanni "Darke", 21:39, lunedì 20 settembre 2010:
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Per le parlate che elenchi usi nomi di regioni, ma sarebbe
meglio usare nomi di città, dato che spesso le regioni sono
pluridialettali (
p.es
. milanese e bresciano invece di
*lombardo)
-- 
There is no distinctly native American criminal class except
Congress.
    -- Mark Twain

 ciò non ne fa delle lingue diverse.
In base a che cosa?

 dusk...hehehe" :-))))))))
Come l'hai scritto non mi e' chiaro, magari solo a me, forse
Do you know who I ended up with?


 *lombardo)
lo so, ma chi non lo sa specificatamente difficilmente può capire la 
differenza.
immagino che per il nord la parlata cittadina del lazio sia "romano", 
quella campana sia "napoletano" e quella siciliana sia "siciliano" (e 
non messinese, catanese, palermitano...)

 In base a che cosa?
in base a che cosa no?
trovami una fonte che le considera lingue.
qualsiasi dialetto locale avrà suoi vocaboli particolari, una sua 
cadenza...ma la grammatica quella è, i verbi quelli sono...
se io ti dico "don't t'aì?" "lu schparàun", "l schrippell 'mbàus" e cose 
simili, tu cosa capisci?
a leggerle niente. a sentirle (nel contesto), forse qualcosa capisci.

 a leggerle niente. a sentirle (nel contesto), forse qualcosa capisci.
Anche lo spagnolo se lo senti (nel contesto) forse qualcosa capisci,
quindi lo spagnolo è un dialetto dell'italiano?

 quindi lo spagnolo è un dialetto dell'italiano?
no, la grammatica è totalmente differente, con somiglianze dovute alla 
vicinanza ed alla comune origine latina->indoeuropea, immagino.
mi rifiuto di considerare un dialetto "lingua", senonaltro per una 
questione di numeri, numeri di chi lo parla e numeri della letteratura 
prodotta in quella lingua.
-- 
 >Giovanni

 prodotta in quella lingua.
Allora anche l'islandese è un dialetto...

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Così come l'inglese britannico e l'inglese americano sono due lingue...

 Allora anche l'islandese è un dialetto...
beh no, immagino escano dei quotidiani in islandese. immagino esista una 
televisione in islandese...
certo, ammetto che in questo modo sto segando via le centinaia di idiomi 
parlati da aborigeni :-)))
-- 
 >Giovanni

 prodotta in quella lingua.
Scherzi? Napoletano, siciliano, lombardo, veneto... vantano più
parlanti e più letteratura di tante lingue parlate in pochi villaggi
negli Urali o in Perù ma inserite nella lista delle seimila lingue da
salvare.
Secondo me, non troverai mai un criterio per distinguere una lingua da
un dialetto che non sia quello del loro reciproco rapporto. Ovvero,
dati due o più linguaggi imparentati, "lingua" è la variante dominante
e riconosciuta (socialmente, politicamente, talvolta persino
giuridicamente), "dialetto" invece è la variante "perdente".

 televisione in islandese...
Ma quanto a canzoni, credo che la produzione e diffusione di canzoni
in napoletano ancora oggi sia molto più ampia di quella in islandese :-
P

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Beh, i Sigur Ros (pensateci voi a mettere gli accenti al posto giusto)
sono spesso primi in classifica...

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(Anche se devo ammettere che, da quando sono arrivato in Irlanda, la
presa per il c^W^W^W^W^W il remix dance di "Tu vuò fà l'americano"
l'avrò sentito una dozzina di volte, canzoni in islandese mai...)