Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Do Australians speak French ?

My Austrialian language assistant pronounced voyage this morning in the
manner a Frenchwoman would do .
She has lived in Italy for more than 20 years now .
Is this the reason why she pronounces everything the wrong way?
Are you really supposed to pronounce that word the French way when you speak
English ?
Yours
Sal

English ?
If you're saying "bon voyage". :)
There are words like "charade" with two pronunciation, in the US it is
mostly pronounced as "sciaréid", while in UK it's pronounced as
"sciaràd".
AFAIK that's not the case of "voyage".
But I know nothing about OZ pronunciation.
Sebastiano
-- 
No wonder people say "gesundheit" when you say "Tchaikovsky".

 as you were expecting, but maybe she was saying something else.
< She was teaching pronunciation .
   She can speak French if she wants and marry a Frenchman if she wants
(although she is already married to somebody from Brindisi ) and speak
French with him all the time .
But not to my students .
You mentioned the word latte and the way the English pronounce it .
This is not the case .
The word latte does not exist in English .
The word voyage has been in use forever.
She also said "brochure" this morning but said it in its English
pronounciation .
So her "vuaiag" was a mistery to me.
Yours
Sal


No, only if you wish somebody "bon voyage", which English people
occasionally do.
What educational qualifications does she have?
-- 
Mary

 What educational qualifications does she have?
< She was born and raised in Adelaide .
Yours
Sal


:-))
That's it??
-- 
Mary

The word voyage has been in use forever.
And that's the main point. Voyage is not a recent borrowed word, the
borrowing is lost in the past and that means that the word *has* to be
treated like an English word. Vojage comes from Middle English, and
the borrowing was from the Old French word 'voiage'.


 the word *has* to be treated like an English word.
That *is* an English word. Almost every word is "imported" (can a word be
"imported", in English?) from another language. After a certain time we may
consider "voyage" an English word, as much as all the words that date from
the same period.
Bye, FB

 French word 'voiage'.
On this I agree. It was not English that changed "vwaa-yaazh" to "vaw-yaj":
it was French which changed it *after* the word was borrowed to English.
But the pronunciation of borrowings can also change in the target language,
*after* the borrowing occurred.
Compare the pronunciation of the "-e" ending in the English word
"dilettante" and "latte": the former is normally mute or "ee", while the
latter is "ay". This of course mean that "dilettante" is a much older
borrowing, and had more time to be adapted to English phonotactics.
Similarly for Italian "club" and "pub": as the latter is a more recent
borrowing, its pronunciation is much closer to the English original.
In a few centuries, English "latte" and Italian "pub" will probably have
changed to such an extent (say, "lait" and "pàbbe") that their foreign
origin will not be apparent anymore.
Ciao.
Marco
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

*after* the borrowing occurred.
Yes, absolutely.
As I said before, I remember Adam saying that he would never say
'latte' as 'lat-tey', and that's, I guess, because he's studied
Italian. His pronunciation of 'latte', then, would still be wrong, but
I wouln't consider that as a mayor issue when discussing about his
English pronunciation.
That would be different if he were teaching people that latte's
pronunciation in English is as the Italians say it.
The same with voyage. If she want to say it as the French do, I don't
mind. Her pronunciation would be wrong (unless she were saying 'bon
voyage' or speaking French), but it wouldn't be a problem.
But if she's teaching *her* pronunciation of voyage, well, that's
different.
Also, the fact that voyage is an old borrowing (as I said, it came
into Middle English from Old Frech), makes the French pronunciation of
the word voyage somewhat more wrong, because the word, being into the
English language for so long, has lost its "frenchness".


 Sebastiano
Has to be treated like an english word?, but that means ...
anything goes! <heheh>
adieu
-- 
              O      __
      ___   /\     / / O  
     /__ \   | \   /  |
    O  /  \ /   \./   |       Loki
        |________ |
 

 That's it??
She's still a native speaker. I mean, her pronounciation of 'voyage' can't be
wrong, under the right point of view. I agree with Seba here, there can't be
strict rules about pronounciation of foreign words.
It _looks_ like Sal doesn't like her for some reason and puts her under a
strict examination, trying hard to find faults somewhere in her English. Am I
right? :) I rarely question that much what my colleagues do [and this is an use
of 'that much' in an affermative sentence, by the way...]
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

anything goes! <heheh>
Hehe, you're right. :)


of 'that much' in an affermative sentence, by the way...]
I don't know that.
I do think that saying voyage as the French do is wrong.
But yes, she's still an English native speaker. If a some
mispronounced words are all her flows, well, I wouldn't bother at all.
But being an English native speaker is not everything.
Havin' Goofy teachin' English would' be sumpin'. :)


 strict rules about pronounciation of foreign words.
No, I don't agree:
- Voyage is no longer a foreign word in English, and "nobody" pronounces
it in the French way except in the phrase "bon voyage". To do so is
absolutely wrong.
- Anybody who works as a foreign language teaching assistant in an
Italian senior high school should surely have some kind of educational
qualification. Being a native speaker isn't enough; if you don't come up
to a reasonable educational standard you're liable to make grammatical
and spelling mistakes, and (much less often) pronunciation mistakes.
-- 
Mary

 So her "vuaiag" was a mistery to me.
Learn French and it will not be a mistery anymore.
P.
-- 
Passo lento, disinvolto e spensierato degli alpini che marciano
cantando sotto le parabole successive e accanite degli shrapnels. 

 borrowing, its pronunciation is much closer to the English original.
Is it? Most Brits I met tend to say "pub" instead of "p&b" or whatever.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo

 Learn French and it will not be a mistery anymore.
< I hope you are not being serious mate .
Yours
Sal

 and spelling mistakes, and (much less often) pronunciation mistakes.
 < Cheers mate !
Yours
Sal

 totally different way, as the French do.
[snip]
You mean there is a difference between pésca and pèsca? I'm afraid I
have 'enuff' trouble remembering the difference between pesce and
pesca, let alone an 'e' that sounds identical to my delicate ears.
Cheers,


pesca, let alone an 'e' that sounds identical to my delicate ears.
Yes, but you don't have to worry. I live in the North East of Italy,
and here it's only pésca and pésca.
Btw, pésca is the peach, while pèsca is fishing.
There are other words like those.
For example bòtte and bótte.
Bótte means cask, barrel.
bòtte is the plural of bòtta, that means blow,bruise, and, when it's
plural, it means also beating.
Where I live the difference between bòtte and bótte is clear.
Other examples:
Omografi con la vocale "E" 
'e' aperta (è) o chiusa (é) 
accétta (scure)			accètta (verbo accettare)
affétto (io taglio a fette	affètto (sentimento)
*aréna (sabbia, lido sabbioso)	arèna (luogo di spettacolo all’aperto)
colléga (verbo collegare)	*colléga (compagno d’ufficio)
*crédo (verbo credere)		Crèdo (preghiera cristiana)
corrésse (verbo correre)	corrèsse (verbo correggere)
détte (p. passato dire) 	dètte (p. remoto del verbo dare)
ésca (cibo)			èsca (verbo uscire)
ésse (pronome personale)	èsse (lettera dell’alfabeto)
légge (norma)			lègge (verbo leggere)
mésse (funzioni sacre)		mèsse (raccolto)
mézzo (fradicio)		mèzzo (metà)
pésca (sport)			pèsca (frutto)
péste (tracce)			pèste (malattia)
ré (sovrano)			*rè (nota musicale)
té (pronome)			*tè (bevanda)
télo (tessuto)			tèlo (dardo)
téma (timore) 			tèma (componimento)
vénti (numero)			vènti (correnti d’aria)
*vendétte (rivendicazioni)	vendètte (vendere)
Omografi con la vocale "O"
'o' aperta (ò) o chiusa (ó)
accórsi (verbo accorrere)	accòrsi (verbo accorgere)
bótte (recipiente)		bòtte (percosse)
cógli (con gli)			cògli (verbo cogliere)
cólto (sapiente)		còlto (verbo cogliere)
*cóppa (parte del collo)	còppa (tazza o bicchiere)
*córso (verbo correre)		Còrso (da Corsica)
fóro (buco)			*fòro (piazza, tribunale) 
fósse (verbo essere)		fòsse (buche)
indótto (verbo indurre)		indòtto (senza cultura)
*pórsi (verbo porre)		pòrsi (verbo porgere)
rósa (verbo rodere)		ròsa (fiore)
scópo (verbo scopare)		scòpo (intenzione)
scórsi (verbo scorrere)		scòrsi (verbo scorgere)
sórta (verbo sorgere)		sòrta (specie) 
tócco (verbo toccare)		tòcco (grosso pezzo)
tórre (edificio altissimo)	tòrre (verbo togliere, poetico)
tórta (focaccia dolce o salata)	tòrta (verbo torcere) 
tósco (toscano) 		tòsco (tossico)
vólgo (popolo)			vòlgo (verbo volgere)
vólto (viso)			vòlto (verbo voltare)
vóto (promessa solenne)		vòto (vuoto)
The examples with an * are those I use only one of the two
pronunciations, and the * shows the variation I use.
In Milan, for example, the use of the accent is different.
In Brescia (Lombardy) the use of the accent is different from mine,
Verona (Veneto), and also different from the one of Milan (Lombardy),
even though they are in the same region.
What I wrote is not meant to confuse you, but only to show you that
even the native speakers don't follow the rules, so you don't have to
worry about that.
There are some words I've never used in my entire life. Words like
"voto", meaning vuoto, or "torre" meaning togliere, or even "mezzo"
meaning fradicio.


 pésca (sport) pèsca (frutto)
Indeed.


 identical to my delicate ears.
The É in "pésca" ('fishing') is somewhere between the I in "bit" and the E
in "bet"; the È in "pèsca" is between the E in "bet" and the A in "bat".
But don't worry, as Sabapop said (and demostrated!:) most Italians don't
make that difference either. The E in "bet" is a good approximation for both
sounds, and many native speakers wouldn't even notice the difference.
Rather, English speakers wishing to learn Italian should pay attention to
the difference between final E and final I.


Er... The other way round. :-)
Yes, I just misplaced the accents. :)
I only say pésca. But I do say perché, gnè gnè gnè. ^_^


 Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/
-- 


bótte (recipiente) bòtte (percosse)
SNIP
Ce ne sono _ancora_, secondo me.
: ]
saluti,
Peltio
che voleva rendersi utensile.

: ]
I termini àncora e ancóra fanno parte di un'altra categoria, dove
l'accento si sposta, e cambia quindi il significato. Come càmice e
camìce, abitìno, àbitino, ecc.
Se fosse ancóra e ancòra sarebbero la stessa identica cosa. Sempre
omografi sono, cambia la categoria di parola (strucciola,
bistrucciola, piana, tronca, ecc.), mentre nel caso di bótte e bòtte
oltre all'omografia rimane costante la collocazione dell'accento
(entrambe le parole sono piane, o sdrucciole, o bisdrucciole, ecc.)
Ecco una lista, ovviamente non completissima:
www.mariadefilippi.it/amici/articolo_id_DataUnit7=923.html
Chiedo perdono per il link al sito della De Filippi, ma questo è
quanto mi ha offerto al volo Google e il tempo è scarso. :)


 caměce
Ehm, penso tu alluda a "camicie".
Ciao, FB

Ehm, penso tu alluda a "camicie".
Assolutamente sě. :/ E non č nemmeno una delle parole che sbaglio a
scrivere di solito, solo che caměce e caměcie si pronunciano allo
stesso modo e nel fare esempi di omografi mi sono sbagliato ed ho
incluso la coppia cŕmice - caměce che non esiste, in quanto caměce č,
in realtŕ, caměcie, quindi non certo omografo di cŕmice.
Chiedo scusa per la banalitŕ.
