Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: wish / "if only" + would

I'd like to know when I should use "would" after "wish" / "if only".
As far as I know, "wish + would" refers to a specific situation, whereas 
"wish + simple past" is more general.
For instance:
   I wish you didn't smoke.
   I wish you wouldn't smoke when you're with our son.
But then I found this sentence:
   If only my car would start more easily.
Shouldn't "started" be preferable?
Kiuhnm


Per quel che ne so, la differenza tra le due costruzioni non è tanto 
basata sul fatto che si indichi una situazione specifica o meno.
Wish + s.p. indica un desiderio riferito a una  situazione passata, non 
più soggetta a modifiche. Se dico "I wish you didn't smoke" non sto 
soltanto dicendo "vorrei che tu non fumassi", ma sto implicitamente 
accettando che questo fatto non si può più cambiare... un po' come dire 
"I wish I was taller" o "I wish I had blue eyes".
Wish + would, invece, indica una specie di esortazione, spesso riferita 
a situazioni negative che non sono più tanto tollerate da chi pronuncia 
la frase. "I wish you wouldn't smoke" significa, più o meno, "vorrei che 
ti /decidessi/ a non fumare". Tra l'altro, anche al di fuori di questa 
particolare costruzione, mi sembra che "would" (e "will") vengano 
utilizzati frequentemente con questo significato, per es: "I tried to 
convince him, but he wouldn't change his mind" ("...non voleva saperne 
di cambiare idea").

 Shouldn't "started" be preferable?
They have different implications.
I wish you didn't smoke.
  I'm not happy about your smoking habit (in general.)
I wish you wouldn't smoke when you're with our son.
  (Whether or not you would consider not smoking in general) please don't 
smoke when you're with my son.
I wish you wouldn't smoke.
  Also means: I'm not happy about your smoking habit (in general.)
If only my car would start more easily.
   I have trouble starting my car every day.
  (It's a regular occurrence.)
If only my car started more easily.
   I would have been able to get away before the police caught me.
  (But it could also mean: I have trouble all the time or often.)
[Did I just clarify or confuse?]
-- 
Joey from New York
Remember: It is To Laugh
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator, but 
among those whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.
    -- WH Auden

 di cambiare idea").
La tua è una buona spiegazione. La condizionale indica la scelta o la 
possibilità e il passato indica il fatto. La situazione specifica è una 
qualità che la condizionale può aggiungere alla communicazione.
Per esempio,
I wish my car started. (la macchina non accessa mai!)
I wish my car would start. (in questo periodo, la macchina non accessa!)
I wish my car started more easily. (è sempre difficile accessarla)
I wish my car would start more easily. (in questo periodo, è difficile 
accessarla)

 di cambiare idea").
Good explanation. Thanks!
Kiuhnm

 [Did I just clarify or confuse?]
confuse :(
I'm a little confused because it seems that every native speaker has a 
slightly different intuition behind the usage of "would" (and I'm not 
only talking of this newsgroup).
For instance you use "would" also to indicate every-day occurrences 
while Tony seems to prefer the simple past.
Then there is mimo who presented a very clear explanation, but maybe not 
completely descriptive of the real usage.
There might also be differences between American and British English.
I'm not saying that one of you is wrong. I believe that the usage of 
"would" is quite complex and difficult to pin down.
Kiuhnm

 "I wish I was taller"
Volendo rispettare un po' la forma, sarebbe meglio "were" no?
Comunque ho risposto perché tutto ciò mi ricorda:
Hello.
I wish I was a little bit taller
I wish I was a baller
I wish I had a girl that looked good
I would call her 
I wish I had a rabbit in a hat with a bat 
And a '64 Impala 
[...]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU6oAF1r754&feature=related
LOL: crazy insane. :)
-- 
Bye, Lem
Ceterum censeo ISLAM esse delendum
_________________________________________________________________
Non sprecare i cicli idle della tua CPU, né quelli della tua GPU.
http://cleanenergy.harvard.edu/
 
http://spin.fh-bielefeld.de/
 
http://www.gpugrid.net/
 

 (in questo periodo, è difficile accessarla)
in questo periodo è difficile accenderla


Prego ;-)
Ieri non ho avuto modo di darci un'occhiata, ma ricordo che sul punto lo 
Swan era molto chiaro, quindi su quel libro troverai tutto ciò che ti 
serve...

 LOL: crazy insane. :)
Che tu ci creda o no, ho scritto la frase con in mente quella canzone, 
anche se non ricordavo più chi la cantava...

 while Tony seems to prefer the simple past.
The use of "would" to indicate repeated occurrences in the past is widespread 
and utterly grammatical.
The simple past by itself means one time, but can be modified by time-related 
phrases so as to mean a recurrence.
I went to the store on Sunday. (once)
I went to the store on Sundays when I lived in Jamaica. (repeated, but sounds 
awkward to me.)
I would go to the store on Sunday (when I lived in Jamaica. - repeated)
This is the same as:
I used to go to the Store on Sunday (when I lived...)
See:
http://www.ecenglish.com/learnenglish/lessons/how-use-would
<quote>
  would for past actions
  Would can be used to talk about actions that repeated in the past.
  It is used in the same context as used to:
  'When I was young I would do my homework every evening.'
  'In the summer we would always go camping.'
<end quote>
and
http://www.grammaring.com/used-to-and-would-for-past-habits
and
<
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/flatmates/episode69/languag
epoint.shtml>



I prefer the simple past? Now, I'm confused, too. But perhaps my Italian 
representations of the examples were misleading because I was trying to 
accommodate your idea of "a specific situation" and describe how that 
could be introduced using the conditional. I did not mean to say that 
the meanings would be as they were represented in the Italian in all 
contexts.
If you are sitting in your car, and trying to start it, you can say "I 
wish my car started" or "I wish my car would start," you would be 
referring to the same problem, that is; la macchina non accessa.
If you were sitting on your porch at night, contemplating the stars, 
with your significant other leaning a head against your knee, and you 
said either of those two sentences, they could also mean the same thing. 
However, with "I wish my car would start" the emphasis is on the fact 
that the car definitely is not going to run without some intervention of 
some kind. To say "I wish my car would start" allows (slightly) more the 
possibility that it may start if you were only more tenacious. So, in 
that sense, "would" can introduce a temporal specificity into the meaning.
On the whole, I supported mymo's explanation and added "La condizionale 
indica la scelta o la possibilità e il passato indica il fatto." And 
then I added "La situazione specifica è una qualità che la condizionale 
__può__ aggiungere alla communicazione" in order to try to help you to 
integrate your understanding of "the specific situation" into a working 
model of how to use the conditional.
So, once again, it is the context that informs the meaning.

 So, once again, it is the context that informs the meaning.
Maybe I should post some of the exercises (just a few sentences) which 
I've been having trouble with. Those exercises ask to rephrase a 
sentence and use "would" whenever possible. No context besides the 
sentence is given. What surprise me is that there are many instances in 
which I'm not supposed to use "would".
Kiuhnm

 and utterly grammatical.
I'm aware of that usage, but I didn't know it applied to "wish" as well.
Being a non native speaker, I see "wish + would" as a very special 
grammatical construction.
I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was doubting you.
Kiuhnm

 which I'm not supposed to use "would".
Go ahead, chances are that it's a matter of common usage and preference, 
and not incorrectness.

 widespread and utterly grammatical.
But Joe... Why to investigate the use of "would", instead of the use of 
"wish"?
What's wrong with these explanations?
http://www.english-grammar-lessons.com/wish/menu.php
http://www.eslbase.com/grammar/wish
I wish you wouldn't smoke when you're with our son.
Vorrei che tu avessi la compiacenza di non fumare, quando sei con nostro 
figlio. - Qui uso would perché fumare o no dipende interamente da te, 
dalla tua *volontà* (would), e perché sono infastidito dal fatto che fumi.
I wish my car started.
Vorrei che la mia auto partisse. - Nessuna implicazione: può partire? Non 
può? Non si sa.
I wish my car had started.
Vorrei che la mia auto fosse partita. - Ma so che poi non è partita.
I wish my car would start.
Vorrei che la mia auto si degnasse di partire. - Se qui uso would, è 
perché desidero dare l'idea che il fatto di partire o no dipenda un po' 
da questo mio rottame di macchina, che fa un po' come *vuole* lei (quasi 
la personalizzo): a volte parte, a volte no (il che m'infastidisce non 
poco). Concludendo, la possibilità che parta c'è.
I wish my car would start every day.
Vorrei che la mia auto partisse tutti i giorni. Qui sto dicendo che non 
parte tutti i giorni... ma, almeno qualche volta, parte. Quindi fa come 
vuole lei! Ecco perché uso "would": non direttamente perché l'azione sia 
ripetuta. Tuttavia il fatto che l'azione sia ripetuta, e con diversi 
esiti, è la causa della mia convinzione che l'auto faccia come *vuole* 
lei: e allora uso *would*.
I wish my car started at least once.
Vorrei che la mia auto partisse almeno una volta. It has never started, 
so it's TFU. Non è mai partita, non partirà. Non dipende da lei, poverina.
From what I see, your explanation and the above one are almost the same. 
Maybe the above one is a little bit understandable and manageable for 
non-native speakers.
Or, maybe, I'm completely wrong. :-p


>> So, once again, it is the context that informs the meaning.
Ok. But how would this be relevant, if it didn't alter or complement 
mymo's model at all? It doesn't seem a different angle of looking at the 
same things either.
Here is one of your examples (slightly edited):
(a) I wish my car started. (la macchina non parte mai!)
(b) I wish my car would start. (in questo periodo, la macchina non parte!)
(a) is general while (b) is specific. But I don't think this is what 
informs our choice. In (b) we use "would" not because it's specific, but 
because there's hope. Couldn't I say
(b2) I wish my car started
(in questo periodo, la macchina non parte perché è danneggiata e non ho 
ancora avuto voglia di ripararla o farla riparare).
(b2) is specific as well.
In my last post I simply said that one of Joe's explanations doesn't 
agree with what you said. Same situation, different usage.
Please note that I didn't say "same sentence" because you would tell me 
that it's the context which informs the usage. I said "same situation". 
I wasn't comparing the sentences but the context. The context is the 
same but your usage isn't.
Kiuhnm

 serve...
I've finally got my hand on "Practical English Usage" by Swan, but he 
offers a different take on the matter at hand.
Here's what he says:
--->
/Would/ is very common in /that/-clauses after /wish/ (much more common 
than it is in /if/-clauses). Sentences with /wish...would/ express 
regret or annoyance that something will not happen.
   Everybody wishes you would go home. (= Why won't you go home?)
   I wish you would stop smoking. (= Why won't you stop smoking?)
   I wish the postman would come soon. (But it looks as if he won't.)
   I wish it would stop raining. (= It will keep on raining!)
   Don't you wish that this moment would last for ever?
Sentences with /wish...wouldn't/ refer to things that do or will happen.
   I wish you wouldn't keep making that stupid noise.
     (= You will keep making ...)
/Wish...would(n't)/ can be like an order or a critical request. Compare:
- I wish you wouldn't drive so fast. (Similar to "Please don't drive so 
fast".)
   I wish you didn't drive so fast. (More like "I'm sorry you drive so 
fast".)
- I wish you wouldn't work on Sundays. (= Why don't you stop?)
   I wish you didn't work on Sundays. (= It's a pity.)
<---
For instance, in sentences like
   I wish it would stop raining. (= It will keep on raining!)
and
   Don't you wish that this moment would last for ever?
there's no hope/possibility like we said, but only regret/annoyance.
And
   I wish you wouldn't keep making that stupid noise.
     (= You will keep making ...)
doesn't mean you're asking him to stop or that he might stop. According 
to Swan, you're certain that he "will keep making that supid noise".
So I guess there is no easy rule.
Kiuhnm

 I've finally got my hand on "Practical English Usage" by Swan, but he
*hands
Kiuhnm

 So I guess there is no easy rule.
Boh, secondo me tu complichi cose invece piuttosto piane.
Io uso wish per desideri irreali o per quelli che, pur teoricamente 
possibili, molto poco probabilmente si realizzano (e usando wish 
manifesti il tuo assoluto pessimismo al riguardo: come dire "ci vorrebbe 
un miracolo").
Per l'irrealtà NON uso would/wouldn't:
I wish it were Sunday.
I wish I had my bag with me now.
I wish I was taller.
Ma posso dire I wish I would be brave: perché, nonostante Manzoni, il 
coraggio in certi casi uno può anche trovarlo sul momento, e darselo. 
Volendolo fortissimamente, può. Quest'ultima infatti non è irrealtà. ;)
Per i desideri improbabili, nelle frasi neutre NON uso wish con would/
wouldn't. Invece lo uso con would/wouldn't se:
a) voglio _rimarcare_ il fatto che il desiderio contrasti colla volontà 
di qualcuno:
I wish you wouldn't be so reckless: essere spericolato o meno dipende 
dalla tua volontà
b) voglio _rimarcare_ il fatto che ciò che contrasta col desiderio crea 
fastidio/noia:
I wish you would stop making so much noise: tutto 'sto casino mi irrita.
Nota che a) e b) spesso si sovrappongono.
Infatti molto più spesso si è infastiditi/annoiati dal comportamento 
volontario di qualcuno, che non da eventi al di fuori di ogni controllo. 
Quindi b) è spesso anche a).
Quando uno se la prende per la pioggia, per esempio, in realtà se la 
piglia colla volontà naturale, col destino, oppure con dio: ma non me ne 
fate andare bene mai una? Deve proprio piovere adesso? Ecco perché IMHO 
esistono casi b) che non ricadono anche in a), tipo:
I wish it would stop raining.
I wish my car would start today.
Io almeno cerco di seguire questo schema, che mi sembra essermi utile.


 I wish I was taller.
And what about
"I wish we would live forever!"
and similar sentences?
Are they incorrect?
Kiuhnm

 Are they incorrect?
Well... Yes, IMHO "I wish we would live forever!" is senseless.
"I wish we would live togheter/closer/in_peace/..." (it's up to ourselves)
are obviously fine, though.


 are obviously fine, though.
Yes, that's not a phrase one is likely to hear. Instead, you might hear 
"I wish we could live together/closer/in peace."


You are right that it isn't specificity that informs the choice. I 
wasn't intending to say that, I was only trying to say that your earlier 
distinction about the specificity of the conditional was not completely 
unfounded because it did make a difference in some phrasings. Sometimes, 
when a person has an idea about why to use a certain phrasing it is more 
helpful to find a way to incorporate that idea into a more comprehensive 
understanding than to just discard it. I was merely trying to give you 
some help in doing that. It's no big deal. I think this exercise can 
only expand the understanding of usage for all concerned.

 only expand the understanding of usage for all concerned.
I thought it was a general rule. Sorry about that. Anyway I must have 
learned something because now those exercises seem very easy. Thank you 
all for your help.
Kiuhnm