Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: /ae/ vowel (again)

This time I'm pretty sure you won't be asked to download anything but my 
zip file:
http://rapidshare.com/files/100962102/mp3.zip.html
We're speaking of American English, where 'laugh' contains the sound /ae/.
By playing the file ae.mp3, you can listen to the /ae/ vowel pronounced 
by four different American native speakers. But are we sure they are 
pronouncing the same vowel? For one, the first /ae/ sounds almost like 
an Italian 'a' and the fourth is maybe a bit excessive (I can hear an 
/ae/ gliding to an 'a').
The third native speaker says (in hers course) that the American /ae/ 
vowel sounds like the bleat of a goat and that's why many non-native 
speakers don't like it and have problems pronouncing it.
Are the first two speakers afraid of sounding too goatlike? :-)
Moreover, the word 'laugh' (laugh_at.mp3) doesn't seem to contain the 
same /ae/ vowel. The word 'at' does.
What do your native speaker ears tell you?
Kiuhnm

 speakers don't like it and have problems pronouncing it.
I think you're getting too hung up on sounding exactly like one (or
more) native speakers. I'd concentrate on getting whole words right
(where "right" means a native speaker is happy with your pronunciation).
A Greek friend of mine claimed that when he returned to Greece after
a prolonged period in the UK (~ 5 years or so) his friends thought
his Greek had changed subtly.
So I think you just need to get close enough to the right pronunciation
and then surround yourself with English and you'll "glide" into the
right pronunciation.
Antonio

 right pronunciation.
Well, it didn't happened in my case. I'm afraid I'll have to make some 
conscious effort.
Kiuhnm

 wrote in message
news:47e27b4e$0$17947$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...

Listening to an isolated sound is not going to help anyone with their
pronunciation. Not quite as useless is listening to an isolated word.
Joe from Massachusetts

 the start.
I completely agree, you should aim to sound like a native speaker.
I just think you need to pick one native speaker :-) Forming the
voewls properly is necessary, but I need whole words for it to
make sense (to me, at least). A few minutes of listening to
a programme set in southern England and one in the north and you'll
hear at least two quite distinct pronunciations of laugh: "larf"
and "laff". But you'll sound odd if you mix "larf" and "class".
Antonio

 and "laff". But you'll sound odd if you mix "larf" and "class".
You're saying that I should leave pronunciation courses alone and try to 
emulate, say, an actor?
Indeed the problem with courses is that the material is quite limited, 
so one of them is hardly enough.
Kiuhnm

 emulate, say, an actor?
Hey, that was my method! Well, I never really started, actually. I think 
I should pick some stand-up show instead of a movie or a tv series. Too 
many people talking one after the other tend to confuse my ear when I 
attempt to repeat the intonation of just one actor (who is already enough!).
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
Si contra fa est diabolus in musica.


Yes, some of the speakers do tend to glide off /almost/ into another
vowel, but that could be just because of habit since almost all English
vowels are actually pronounced as diphthongs even though many native
speakers do not even realize it.  Some of them can't even be made to
hear that English "o" trails off into "u" even though their own
pronunciation demonstrates it quite clearly to me.  And, yes, the last
one did sound a bit exaggerated.  So I would say that disregarding the
gliding off, they are all pronouncing the same vowel sound.
In the laugh_at file, it sounds like the /ae/ sound trails off just
a little in "laugh" probably to form the "f" sound.  I think in most
cases of these two files, the trailing off, however slight, is toward
the schwa and that this trailing off is a little more pronounced in
the case of "laugh" than in that of "at."
Having said that, you must realize that in the United States there
exists a variety of different accents.  I heard a man from Boston once
(pardon me, Joe) speaking of "sports" and it sounded to me like he
was saying "spots" and it is quite common in the Northeastern United
States to pronounce "car" as "cah" like the Italian name of the
letter K, but with the majority of people in the US you will definitely
hear the R.  Insofar as trailing off into the schwa is concerned, I
thing the farther south you go in the US, the more you will find this
for both "laugh" and "at" as well as other instances of /ae/.
-- 
Dale Erwin
Av. Circunvalación CEC-2
Urb. Los Girasoles de Huampaní
Lurigancho, Lima 15, PERU
-- Posso resistere a tutto... tranne alle tentazioni
 

 pronunciation. Not quite as useless is listening to an isolated word.
Do you have any evidence to back that up?
Kiuhnm


I think that sometimes it is not so much a question of a difference in
pronunciation but of diction.  I find many native Italian speakers to
speak quite clearly but others sound like they have a mouthful of mush.
I don't attribute this to pronunciation but rather to diction and/or
enunciation.


 enough!).
For now I'll stick to the course. I've been learning a lot. But the idea 
of the actor is quite interesting. I might try it some day.
Kiuhnm

 -love at- 
Ma perché "love at"?  Sai che se dici "He loves at his wife" potrebbe
significare che cerca di amarla ma non lo fa dal cuore e perciò non
riesce?


 so one of them is hardly enough.
If I were learning a new language I would expect to have to learn new
pronunciation rules. I'd prefer to have a teacher correct my 
pronunciation.
If that's not possible then I suppose I would have to learn from a guide
and, for me at least, I'd need several audio examples of each of the
words containing the various vowels and consonants.
Once past that initial stage, I'd want to hear examples of the language
in use. Whether that's more course material or TV transmissions would
depend on what I could get hold of. Once you put words into a sentence 
you suddenly find that they get al lmangled and bruised. "got" on its 
own is nice and simple, but let it loose with other words around it and
suddenly it changes. There's no way that a limited course can begin
to tackle this. I'm not suggesting that you learn to say "gorra" but
if you spit out perfectly formed staccato words like "I have got to go 
now" instead of "I've go'to go now" you'll stick out like Commander Data 
in ST:TNG.
So I wouldn't chuck the courses, but I'd try and broaden my source
material somewhat. Since you are learning English you are quite
lucky in that spoken English is fairly hard to avoid on the net!
There's plenty of source material there for you to digest. You
should certainly strive to understand it all. I don't think you
should aim to reproduce it all. I presume your course will give
you an idea of what an acceptable non-regional accent is and
you should probably stick to speaking like that. 
Antonio

 for both "laugh" and "at" as well as other instances of /ae/.
Ok.
BTW, I heard that there is some American accent that sounds quite British.
Kiuhnm

 in ST:TNG.
I'm being a bit polemic here.
Do you really think that a good course on pronunciation doesn't cover up 
all that? The book I'm studying on comes with 5 audio CDs and there are 
a lot of exercises about very long sentences full of reductions, 
contractions, etc...
But single vowels are also important and they are also carefully dealt with.
Do you think that singers sing entire song every time they practice? I 
don't think so. There are many short patterns they have to have well 
rehearsed.
Speaking of "more natural material", I've watched every episode of every 
series of every season of Star Trek! I watch at least 1-2 hrs of TV 
series a day.
But a pronunciation course can teach you things you would never notice 
all by yourself.
Kiuhnm

 enunciation.
You're right. For instance, the course I was talking of is called 
"American Accent Training", where an accent is a combination of 
intonation, liaisons and pronunciation, according to the author.
She says:
"Many people equate accent with pronunciation. I don't feel this to be 
true at all. America is a big country, and while the pronunciation 
varies from the East Coast to the West Coast, from the southern to the 
northern states, two components that are uniquely American stay 
basically the same - the speech music, or intonation, and the word 
connections or liaisons.
Throughout this program, we will focus on them. In the latter part of 
the book we will work on pronunciation concepts, such as Cat? Caught? 
Cut? and Betty Bought a Bit of Better Butter; we also will work our way 
through some of the difficult sounds, such as TH, the American R, the L, 
Y, and Z."
Kiuhnm

 "American Accent Training"
Per curiosità, questo?
http://www.amazon.com/American-Accent-Training-Book-Audio/dp/0764173693
www.americanaccent.com/

 
http://www.amazon.com/American-Accent-Training-Book-Audio/dp/0764173693
Yes.
Kiuhnm

 all that?
It's 'cover' without 'up'!
Kiuhnm

Kiuhnm wrote:

Sembra interessante e le review su Amazon sono positive. Anche il prezzo
non pare eccessivo.
Peccato però non prendano in considerazione i problemi specifici dei
learner italiani, a quanto pare:
"Supplementary materials included detailed nationality guides for eight
languages (Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Spanish, French, German, Russian and
Korean)"

 Korean)"
There are just 4-5 pages about it. It's not a big deal.
Kiuhnm

Kiuhnm wrote: > Ok. > BTW, I heard that there is some American accent that sounds quite British. > Kiuhnm Not to my ear, but I'd say that in the New England states the accents are somewhat influenced by British.  If I'm not mistaken, the British say "cah" for car, and this may be something regional, I don't know.  To my ear, a man with a British accent sounds effeminate... and that is not intended to be disparaging. Dale Erwin 

 effeminate... and that is not intended to be disparaging.
What about French, then? :-)
Kiuhnm

 wrote in message
news:47e2ed8b$0$4789$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...

That depends on whether we are talking about developing a good English
accent, or just amassing quaint facts about English. You can be considered
an expert on a language, and know all about a language, but be unable to
speak and understand the spoken language without difficulty. It is even
possible to teach a foreign language, here in the US or there in Europe,
without being able to speak and understand that language fluently.
I never concerned myself with the IPA symbols or any other written
representations of individual sounds in another language, whether it be
Russian, French, Italian, German, or Spanish. An exception perhaps would be
Chinese, which has no alphabet, where even the Chinese have to learn the
Roman-alphabet-based Pinyin in order to deal with the sounds which their
pictographic characters represent. In no Western language, including
Russian, which I have studied has there ever been a suggestion by a teacher
that it is useful to learn any of these phonetic representations.
I can't recall ever having asked someone how a single syllable is pronounced
in a language, except when dealing with Chinese, where every syllable stands
on its own and has meaning on its own, and must be spoken distinctly.
I never wasted any time pondering the the lack of double consonants in the
Veneto, nor did I waste my time imitating the "'c'asananti" of the
Florentines. I just learned Italian words, phrases, and sentences by
imitating people whose speech seemed to me to be worthy of imitation.
When foreigners learn French, they have a choice of studying either the
"Québecois" accent, or the "Parisian" accent. I happen to have studied
French from professors who spoke with a Parisian accent, but when I go to
Québec, I don't attempt to change my accent to conform to the local accent.
I don't have any problem understanding the Québecois, nor do they have any
problem understanding my accent. I don't find their accent strange, nor do
they find my accent strange. I don't concern myself with what the
differences are between the Parisian and Québecois accents.
A student can't try to imitate both of these French accents while he is
learning the language any more than he can try to imitate both of the
dominant English accents while learning the language, otherwise he'll be a
source of amusement for both groups.
Rather than waste time analyzing the vagaries of various French or English
accents, it would be time better spent for a student of one of these
languages if he stuck with one accent, and, as is the case for most
students, if going to a country where the language being studied is spoken
is out of the question, the best substitute is to practice reading aloud
from audiobooks recorded by recognized narrators in that accent.
Once the student has developed an acceptable accent of his own by imitating
these native speakers, he won't have any trouble understanding any other
accent in that language, but to toy with both accents before developing an
accent of his own is a waste of time.
Joe from Massachusetts

 news:47e2ed8b$0$4789$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...
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I'll take that for an articulated 'no'.
Kiuhnm

 I'm being a bit polemic here.
Fuor di polemica, che corso è?
(Chiedo venia se l'hai già detto e mi è sfuggito). 


Ok, visto, c'è un post più giù in cui lo dici :-) 

 wrote in message
news:47e409be$0$4784$4faf...@reader4.news.tin.it...

"...adult English speakers do not use a syllabification strategy when
listening to their native language"
http://tinyurl.com/yox9dx
Joe from Massachusetts

 
http://tinyurl.com/yox9dx
I'm afraid you're confusing syllables with vowels.
Kiuhnm

 wrote in message
news:47e43825$0$17941$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...

Vowels don't occur in isolation in English except in the case of "i" and
"a", and even the latter can have two pronunciations, depending on its use,
so even it can never be said to be truly isolated.
Syllables don't occur in isolation except as whole words or as expletives.
A better method of describing the pronunciation of "laugh" in the New York
and "Standard American" accents would be to list words which contain the
same vowel sound, a technique used in the pronunciation drills of elementary
school textbooks.
NY:
laugh, laird, half, staff, calf, hair
The keyword here is "laird", in which the vowel sound is the same in both
the NY and Standard American accents.
Standard American:
laugh, cat, half, staff, calf
Joe from Massachusetts

 school textbooks.
That's the very reason why I was asking if "laugh" was pronounced with 
the /ae/ vowel in that recording.
No one has tried to describe the pronunciation of "laugh" in this thread.
Kiuhnm

 thread. 
The problem is that Joe and I are likely to give you different
answers. The "laird list" that Joe posted just would not work
in English (or at least, not in RP or any regional pronunciation
that springs to mind).
I doubt that there are any "absolute" vowels anyway. A vowel
in isolation is quite difficult to pin down. Put those four
slightly different vowels into "laugh" and you'll still have
a perfectly recognisable "laugh". I think most English speakers
wouldn't bat an eyelid at any of those four "laughs". I don't
think people notice minor variations that have no effect on
meaning ... unless you slur the vowel sufficiently that it strays
into the territory of another (possible) word or you just change 
it so much that it is no longer recognisable then it will still
be "laugh".
Can you distinguish "cappello" and "capello" or "pesca" and "pesca"?
Given just that one word, once, with no other context?
Antonio

 Given just that one word, once, with no other context?
I pronounce the last two the same way, but I wouldn't have trouble 
telling the first two apart, if pronounced correctly.
Kiuhnm

 them.
1.  Sounds like Italian i (_i_taliano)
2.  Sounds like Italian again (_e_, congiunzione)
3.  Could be ei (Italian sei) or ay (English say)
4.  Sounds like Italian again (e`)
5.  Sounds an awful lot like e`, again
6.  ah or uh
7.  Oa as in English boat
8.  eurgh as in hurt??
9.  u as in Italian luna?
10. a as in "a dog"?
11. Is that eur from French leur? Or maybe English hurt?
What were they meant to be?
Antonio

 What were they meant to be?
Considering that you're not American you did pretty well!
Kiuhnm

 (with a little bit of 'a').
... of *Italian* 'a'.
Kiuhnm

 Or in 'boot'.
My "luna" and my "boot" don't match at all. You only
get an OO with Typhoo! I offer my apologies in advance
to the group but for once youtube has come up trumps:
 
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b2s0zV5mLuY
Antonio

  
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b2s0zV5mLuY
Mmm... According to the IPA symbols they should match, but I guess there 
are regional variations that can't possibly be expressed through so 
limited a set of symbols.
Kiuhnm


NY:
laugh, laird, half, staff, calf, hair
The keyword here is "laird", in which the vowel sound is the same in both
the NY and Standard American accents.
Standard American:
laugh, cat, half, staff, calf
RP
laugh, barf, half, staff, calf
The vowel in barf is the same in RP as in the NY and Standard American
accents, but the other vowels are uniquely British.
Joe from Massachusetts

 limited a set of symbols.
The OED gives /bu:t/ for boot (and /tai:fu:n/ for typhoon, sadly
there's no typhoo in there :-)). I suspect that the scheme used by the
OED is not identical to modern IPA, but "soon" and "boot" have the
same vowel to my ear and the OED agrees giving /su:n/. The wikipedia
IPA for soon is two symbols (I cannot reproduce it here, you'll
have to look), which doesn't match the /u/ it gives for "luna".
Antonio

 have to look), which doesn't match the /u/ it gives for "luna".
I see.
Kiuhnm


Ovvio che l'imitazione è utile. Ma è sufficiente? Secondo me, a meno che tu
non sia naturalmente molto portato, la sola imitazione può non essere
sufficiente senza qualcuno che ti corregga gli errori e ti spieghi le
differenze tra un suono e l'altro e come produrli correttamente.
Ci sono persone diverse con esigenze diverse, e il fatto che un metodo
abbia funzionato bene per te non vuol necessariamente dire che sia
altrettanto valido per chiunque altro, o che altri metodi non siano utili
per altre persone.
Inoltre, dipende anche dagli obiettivi. Una cosa è pronunciare in maniera
grosso modo comprensibile, altra cosa -più difficile- riprodurre davvero la
pronuncia dei madrelingua. Pensa agli emigrati che vivono per decenni in un
altro Paese, parlano la lingua del posto tutti i giorni, ma mantengono
alcune caratteristiche distintamente straniere (esempio banale: i cinesi
che non riescono a dire "erre", o gli italiani che la fanno sentire fin
troppo!).

 Not to my ear, 
Neanche al mio, per quel pochissimo che conta. 
Per esempio, nonostante alcune caratteristiche British nell'eloquio di
F.D.Roosevelt, che vengono fatte notare per es. qui
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_English#Other_public_figures
...Roosevelt's speech is non-rhotic; one of Roosevelt's most frequently
heard speeches has a falling diphthong in the word fear, which
distinguishes it from other forms of surviving non-rhotic speech in the
United States. "Linking R" appears in Roosevelt's delivery of the words
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"; compare also Roosevelt's
delivery of the words "naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan." This
American version of a "posh" accent is now obsolescent, if not wholly
obsolete, even among the American upper classes,...
a me Roosevelt suona pur sempre distintamente ammerregano, o sbaglio?! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alzP0jHk18U