Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Frase dubbia

Following is a sentence, quoted by heart, from the film "Cold Comfort
Farm", of which I've recently written:
"If you've really made up your mind to go, then you'd better. You'll soon
tire here anyhow".
I wasn't aware you could use "you'd better" that way, with no verb
following. Is it still possible nowadays? The novel dates back from... I
don't know, but it's not recent, and in the film you can hear such things
as "Have you a plane, Charles?", which I understand are no more usual in
GB, are they [1]?
Here is a sentence from the book, instead, which I, too, quote by heart,
Amazon not being perfectly working at the moment:
"I don't much like it". 
Is it common? Are "I don't like it much" or "I don't like it very much"
commoner?
-----
[1] I've read a lot about the matter, and still I've just found "Have you a
map of Lincoln?" (not "Have you got... ?" or "Do you have... ?") in this
page: 
http://www.lincoln.gov.uk/FAQs_det.asp?id=3116&sec_id=740
I guess it's bureaucratic jargon.
-----
Bye, FB
-- 
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

 don't know, but it's not recent
Either "dates from" or "dates back to", I guess.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Enjoying yourself, Elfine?"
"It's going to be such fun!"
"No, it's going to be amusing or diverting, not such fun, darling."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)

 following. Is it still possible nowadays?
Yes, you can. Quite common.
-- 
This is my opinion of modern, colloquial, American English. 
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

 Yes, you can. Quite common.
Thanks. The sentence, though, is "[...]. You'll soon tire of it, anyhow".
Nothing to do with your reply. I just wanted to point it out.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Che cos'è un fallo da tergo? E non stiamo parlando della tua vita
privata."
(Intervista della Gialappa's Band a Elisabetta Canalis)

 commoner?
It's a bit affected but not uncommon. The other expressions are more common.

period. 
Can you say "more than *of* time period"?  
...just a friendly question...
ari

commoner?
Yes.  Is "commoner" correct?  I've never seen it before.  How about "more
common"?
bye
ari

I guess it's bureaucratic jargon.
In this case it's posed as a rhetorical question. The purpose is to
inform you that they sell maps for 50p.

 common"?
Both are correct, but more common is commoner than commoner.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?" "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability" "It is obviously the same person".
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)



Can it be that, strictly speaking, "a matter of context more than time
period" means "it's time period rather than a matter of context", whereas
"a matter of context more than of time period" means "it's not a matter of
context, it's a matter of time period", which I suppose is what Tony meant?
Bye, FB
-- 
In any case, if you say 'I gotta go' at an important job interview you're
contributing to being allowed just that privilege.
(Tony the ice man on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

 common"?
When I first read the question, it didn't phase me, but now I realize that
"more common" is more common, and "commoner" usually refers to hoi polloi.


 When I first read the question, it didn't phase me
faze?
-- 
Mary

 "more common" is more common, and "commoner" usually refers to hoi polloi.
Don't you mean that "more common" is used by hoi polloi? Actually I also
don't understand "usually refers to".
Bye, FB
-- 
"Suppose I say I'm not interested."
"Does five hundred dollars interest you?"
"Very much."
"Then bring it: it's an expensive restaurant".
(The Cheap Detective)



QUOTE
phase
\Phase\, v. t. [Cf. Feeze.] To disturb the composure of; to disconcert; to
nonplus. [Colloq.]
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA,
Inc.(
http://snipurl.com/af41
)
UNQUOTE 
-- 
Xakero
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right -- for you'll be criticised
anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't" _ Eleanor
Roosevelt.

 don't understand "usually refers to".
"commoners" means "hoi polloi", aka "the masses", "the common people", "the
commoners".
So,  the phrase "'commoner' usually refers to hoi polloi" means that the
term "commoner" is used with the meaning of "common person" ("hoi polloi"
means "the common people") rather than with the meaning of "more common".
Oh, some say that the article "the" before "hoi polloi" is redundant, since
"hoi" means "the" in Greek, but it has been in use since the term was first
introducted into the English language, so I think it's okay. I mean, if
it's ok to say "the zucchini is" - at least in AmE - I guess it's correct
to say "the hoi polloi". That doesn't mean, for instance, that you can say
"The El Niño". In this case "the" is redundant, cause Spanish is a well
known language and when the term started to be familiar, everybody knew
that the meaning of "el" was "the", so nobody started using "the" before
"el". At least that's what I read. I can imagine a sentence like "The El
Niño phenomenon..." but I would not say/write "the El Niño is"; I would,
instead, say/write "El Niño" is".
But I don't think that this "El Niño" example fits. It's a proper noun and
I don't see why "the" should be used, no matter what "El" means. "El" is
part of the noun. 
The hurricane Ivan, for example, need the article when you use the word
hurricane". That's the same with "El Niño" when you use "phenomenon". I
would *never* write "The Ivan was terrible".
On the other hand, the term "hoi polloi" is a indeed a noun, but not a
proper one. It needs the article "the", not matter what "hoi" means. Yes,
"the polloi" would be more logical, but the import is "hoi polloi" so "the
hoi polloi" is standard English.
Sebastiano

 hoi polloi" is standard English.
I'd say "hoi polloi", leaving the original article and regarding it as an
article. Joey seems to concur, unless the article wasn't required in the
sentence, and on this I'd rather not comment. (smiling face)
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 sentence, and on this I'd rather not comment. (smiling face)
I don't think nobody would consider "to hoi polloi" wrong, since "hoi"
means "the" in Greek. The term "hoi polloi" means "the masses", not
"masses".  But "to the hoi polloi" is not wrong either, I think, 'cause
that's the way it was imported.
I think that "to the hoi polloi" sounds better, but that's me. I didn't
know that "hoi" means "the" in Greek.
Anyway, when a proper name is made of "the" plus a noun, you don't see "the
the blah blah situation is..." but simply "the blah blah situation is",
even though the article "the" is part of the name.
When the proper name is not an English name, the article is used.
"The El Barrio section of Manhattan" is not wrong, I think. But if someone
writes "El Barrio community is..." I think it's correct, too.
When it comes to proper names and the use of the article, I know that the
phrase "it depends" is *very* common. :)
Sebastiano

Sebapop ha scritto:

I agree with both of you (how's *that* for diplomacy?): Sebastiano is right
that the expression "hoi polloi" means "the masses" and so the article is
included in the phrase; however he's also right that most people
(erroneously) say "the hoi polloi" and so it's become standard to do so.
I agree with FB, since, to my ear, however unfamiliar it may be with the
Greek language, using "the" grates because I understand the term to have
its own article. That's why I eliminate "the" when I can; in some contexts
it may sound better with it (although I can't think of one at the moment.)


 to say "the hoi polloi".
I'm not sure I see the connection between "the zucchini is" (I know it
should be "are") and "the hoi polloi" other than that it's how words
sometimes get imported in foreign languages.
In the past we talked about the Italian term "parking" in the sense of
"parking lot" and other similar things. ("Dov'è il parking" for "where is
the parking lot", no?)
In the case of "hoi polloi" even it's pronounced it as it looks, in my head
I hear "i pa-'li" which is how I infer it would be said in modern Greek and
to me that has an inherently "plural" sound to it, with a properly affixed
article.
Yes, I am an incurable word geek.


 Yes, I am an incurable word geek.
You lucky man! I am a fantasy geek, that's weirder. Oh, no, that's wyrd.
Sebastiano

 it may sound better with it (although I can't think of one at the moment.)
I'll try not to use "the" before hoi polloi, then. :)
Sebastiano

 "Parking?" può essere il nome di un hotel o di un locale o boh.
Well, maybe it's the French term; I seem to remember hearing it used in
some foreign context in that way. At first I thought it was French, but
then decided it couldn't be, since the French are so averse to importing
English words into their language.


 I'll try not to use "the" before hoi polloi, then. :)
The only time in my life when I have to mention it, I won't too. (smiling
face)
Bye, FB
-- 
"Golden orb... The golden orb... The golden orb..."


 And "The El Barrio community" or "El Barrio community"?
I think I would automatically say "the Barrio section/community/etc."
although I wouldn't be taken aback to hear anyone say "the El Barrio
section..."
In my opinion, "the Barrio section" and "El Barrio" (without "section",
because it's implied in the word "barrio") are the best ways to express the
location.
--Where does he live? --In the Barrio.
With "community" it's a little different, and I think I'd say "the Barrio
(actually, I'd say "the Latino") community.
--The Barrio (Latino) community showed strong support for Kerry.
Even though the barrio refers to the location rather than the ethnicity.
You probably know of this place in the Village, but it's one of my pet
peeves: it's a pool hall called "The Le Q", which is supposed to be a pun
on the letter Q and the word (pool)cue, but of course it has two articles
in it.  grrrrrrrrrrrr.


 English words into their language.
It is French. Le [paR'ki:Ng]... By the way, I'll never understand why
they've imported the word "interview"; as far as I'm aware, "intervue"
doesn't exist, though it would have done perfectly.
Bye, FB
-- 
"While I'm here, might I make a few changes? I adore my bedroom, but do you
think I could have my curtains washed? I believe they're red, but I should
like to make sure."


 The only time in my life when I have to mention it, I won't too.
..."I won't, either."


 It is French. Le [paR'ki:Ng]... 
Thank you. So I'm not crazy after all. :)


 meant?
Sorry for the apparent indecipherability of my response. It's clear to me, 
but I lapse into a poetic, albiet idiolectic prose at times.
I was responding to your comment "is it still possible nowadays?" I don't 
think it's an issue of 'nowadays' or 'thenadays'. One could imply a word in 
a phrase at any time in history and it would be understandable in the 
appropriate context. In the example phrase, you understand the meaning from 
the context by understanding what word is implied. Therefore, I attempted to 
say that understanding the use of the dreaded example phrase can be 
attributed to context, more than it can be attributed to the time period in 
which it was spoken. To paraphrase an underappreciated politician of recent 
past (who grows more likeable in comparison by the day),  it's the context, 
stupid!

 ..."I won't, either."
Yeah, "won't too" sounds like Chinese food. :P
Sebastiano

 polloi" can't be considered such.
Well, it's indeed an English word. A borrowing. Like 'spaghetti',
'zucchini', 'gesundheit', 'kebab', and so on.
Alcohol is an English word whose roots lie in other languages. It's not the
same. But I said I was kidding. :)
 
Sebastiano

 ..."I won't, either."
Er, sorry.
Bye, FB
-- 
Conversation like television set on honeymoon: unnecessary.
(Murder by Death)

 in it.  grrrrrrrrrrrr.
^_^
Category: Fears and Pet Peeves.
Question: What is Joey's biggest pet peeve?
Answer: Phrases with two consecutive articles in it.
Oh, anyway, I have never heard of "The Le Q" before. :)
Sebastiano

 --
 Mary is right, and this particular dictionary entry is wrong, very
wrong.
The meanings of "phase" and "faze" are completely unrelated.
I have never seen "faze" spelled as "phase", in any dictionary, but I
don't have a copy of the one you cite. Are you citing the posting of a
third party who claims to have copied this entry from the dictionary
in question, or do you actually have the dictionary in your
possession?
This post is the first time I have ever seen "faze" and "phase"
equated.
My Compact Oxford says that "faze" (cf. feeze) is of American origin
(Boston, of all places), and doesn't give any alternate spelling.
Joe from Massachusetts

 polloi" can't be considered such.
"Hoi polloi" is an English word, and It is always used with the
article.
Joe from Massachusetts

 city of New York. Neither is "the barrio".
Really? I have a map of NYC and there is "El Barrio" written on East
Harlem, just above the Upper East Side. That's why I thought it was a
specific portion of Manhattan, a part of Harlem.
Sebastiano

 inform you that they sell maps for 50p.
I suppose so, but does the form "Have you a map of Lincoln?" have anything
to do with the question's being rhetorical?
Bye, FB
-- 
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" apparso su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

to do with the question's being rhetorical?
I'd say so, yes.
"Have you a map of Lincoln?"
"Got a map of Lincoln?
These go well in an advertisement.

 wrote in message
news:105dida5cwqi9$.8gujl1l1rncd.dlg@40tude.net...

"El Barrio" no longer exists.
"El Barrio", with "Barrio" capitalized, is the name Puerto Ricans gave
to their neighborhood in East Harlem.
From the 1930s through the 1960s, "El Barrio" was the largest
Spanish-speaking community in New York, populated almost exclusively
by Puerto Ricans.
In 1940, the Puerto Rican population of "El Barrio" was about 35,000.
After World War II, the population began to increase dramatically,
growing by more than tenfold, and by the mid 1960s almost 70 percent
of Puerto Ricans living in the mainland US lived in East Harlem. Today
the Latino population of NY is almost two million, the Puerto Rican
population is about three-quarters of a million, the Bronx has 300,000
Puerto Rican residents, but only about 35,000 Puerto Ricans reside in
"El Barrio", about the same number as resided there in 1940.
During the 1960s, the physical size of "El Barrio" increased, and its
southern boundary moved from 106th Street down to 96th Street. Now,
due to gentrification, the southern boundary has moved back up to
106th Street. <<On the political front, there has been a rezoning of
the area with the southern section from 106th to 96th now part of
Upper Yorkville.>>
http://www.prdream.com/galeria/barrio_lecture/
"La Marqueta", an open-air market under the arches of the railroad
viaduct on Park Avenue, still exists, and penny-wise New Yorkers can
still find bargains there on the weekends,  but it is no longer the
vibrant "Puerto Rican Market" it once was. It is just a market.
In the 1960s, proud Puerto Ricans created the "Museo del Barrio",
located near the Museum of the City of New York on Fifth Avenue, in
order to preserve and display the art and cultural heritage of their
Puerto Rican "Barrio". Today the museum has had to change direction,
and survives by highlighting the works of non-Puerto Rican artists.
The recent exhibition of the works of Frida Kahlo, the late Mexican
artist, was a source of resentment to many Puerto Ricans.
"The threat of El Museo losing its identity as a Puerto Rican
institution is very critical for us."
http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2002/vol6n47/Museo-en.shtml
The museum has lost its identity as Puerto Rican because the center of
Puerto Rican life in New York is no longer in Spanish Harlem, and
Puerto Ricans are reluctant to admit that "El Barrio" no longer
exists.
The increase in the Mexican population of the area has been the source
of much friction and hostility between the Puerto Ricans and these new
arrivals. On 116th Street, the "Main Street" of "El Barrio", Puerto
Rican businesses have been replaced by Mexican, Dominican, and
Middle-Eastern businesses.
<<El Barrio is "the sanctuary of an idea, an imaginary homeland I
shared with countless other displaced souls, U.S.-entrenched Puerto
Ricans in search of being Puerto Rican." >>
http://journalweb.journalism.fas.nyu.edu/portfolio/smith/One_Barrio.html
<<Puerto Ricans who pioneered El Barrio wonder what will become of
their beloved adopted homeland.>>
http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2003/vol7n11/SpanishHarlem-en.shtml
Most New Yorkers have never visited Spanish Harlem, either in its
heyday in the 1960s, or today in its decline, and have never browsed
the stands of "La Marqueta". A cultural phenomenon has come and gone,
and most New Yorkers have no idea of what it was, or what it has
become.
Joe from Massachusetts