Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: lonely / lonesome

Really, I don't understand these exercises!
Marion doesn't see anyone. She leads a ......... life.
(a) lonely
(b) lonesome
(c) single
(d) alone
What would your answer be?
Kiuhnm

 (d) alone
charmed 


Okay, lonely. 

 Okay, lonely. 
Surprise: the answer is "lonesome".
Kiuhnm

 wrote in message
news:471a3a4e$0$17953$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...

I think either a or b would be correct.
«44
alone, lonely, lonesome and lone
Alone means 'without others around'. Lonely (and informal AmE lonesome)
means 'alone and unhappy because of it'. Compare:
I like to be alone for short periods.
But after a few days I start getting lonely/lonesome.
Alone can be emphasised by all.
After her husband died, she was all alone.
Alone is not used before a noun (see 12.3). Lone and solitary can be used
instead; lone is rather literary.
The only green thing was a lone/solitary pine tree.»
(Swan, Practical English)
Joe from Massachusetts

 Alone is not used before a noun (see 12.3). Lone and solitary can be used
In fact I can't think of a single sentence with 'alone' before a noun. 
My answer was "lonely", but I was... surprised.
Kiuhnm

 Surprise: the answer is "lonesome".
One could argue that she is lonely, not her life. But, the same problem
exists for the adjective 'lonesome'. The idea of a "lonely life" is
colloquial and so widely accepted that I wouldn't worry about using it in
any situation. Even though the adjective describes the noun 'life' the
phrasing reflects on her state of being. I would probably choose to say that
she leads a solitary life if I wanted to just describe her life and not her
state of being in that life.

 These types of answers, or better, this type of answer.
How about "these type of answers"?
Cheers,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"Solo che filosofare oggi, così ridotti come siamo, è come in una gelida 
giornata d'inverno farsi addosso una pisciatina per sentire un po' di 
teporino…" (Giorgio Gaber) 

 state of being in that life.
Ok.
Kiuhnm

 (for example "thief" for... I don't remember what).
You may be referring to my offer of lestofante to explain motivational
speaker. I admit that on that one occassion I allowed my editorial spin to 
influence my response.

 How about "these type of answers"?
Now why would you want to say that? Would you say 'answers of these type?' 
No, I don't think so. So, stop it right there. Leave those kind of mistakes 
for native speakers.

 mistakes for native speakers.
Oh, is that considered a mistake? I've always thought it was correct, though 
a bit colloquial.


 speaker.
Exactly.
Kiuhnm

 though a bit colloquial.
In fact, I don't know if it's a mistake or just substandard. I'm sure that 
you could find some controversy on that point. I do know, however, that an 
editor would correct it. The purpose of my post was for you to catch my use 
of that insidious structure in my last sentence. 

Kiuhnm wrote:

 
 
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic5824.html

 
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic5824.html
Don't depend on that forum. They give squirrelly answers compared to this 
newsgroup. I didn't do a Google search before responding to the original 
post, but here are the results:
"leads a lonely life"            12,700
"leads a lonesome life"              43
"leads a single life"                   511 (with this lonesome/single 
controversy as the first result)
"leads an alone life"                     0

  
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic5824.html
I know that site :-)))
"The adjective “lonesome” means dejected because of a lack of 
companionship, lonely in feeling, depressed by solitude or by a sense of 
being alone. It is stronger in meaning than lonely because it implies 
dreariness. It has an emotional colouring.
The adjective “single” means not accompanied by another or others, which 
stands by itself; that is not accompanied, combined or united with 
another, that is one only. It has no emotional colouring."
1) Is there any dictionary that can confirm this? I haven't found any.
2) Even if this was the case, how would we know if Marion is lonely or 
lonesome?
Kiuhnm

 dreariness. It has an emotional colouring.
Everybody's going out and having fun
I'm a fool for staying home and having none.
I can't get over how she set me free.
Oh, lonesome me.
There must be some way that I can lose these lonesome blues
Forget about my past and find someone new
I've thought of everything from A to Z
Oh, lonesome me.
I'll bet she's not like me.
She's out and fancy free,
Flirting with the boys with all her charms
But I still love her so,
And brother don't you know
I'd welcome her right back here in my arms... 
There must be some way that I can lose these lonesome blues
Forget about my past, find someone new
I've thought of everything from A to Z
Oh, lonesome me.
(Neil Young, in /After the Gold Rush/, originally written by Don Gibson)
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 lonesome?
Only the lonely
Know the way I feel tonight
Only the lonely
Know this feelin ain't right
There goes my baby
There goes my heart
They're gone forever
So far apart
But only the lonely
Know why
I cry
Only the lonely
Only the lonely
Know the heartaches I've been through
Only the lonely
Know I cried and cried for you
Maybe tomorrow
A new romance
No more sorrow
But that's the chance - you gotta take
If your lonely heart breaks
Only the lonely
(Roy Orbison)
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 structure in my last sentence.
Doh!
Ciao,


 "leads a lonesome life"              43
Restringendo la ricerca ai siti UK, si ottiene addirittura un risultato
zero!
Quæstioni tuæ - "leads a lonesome life" site:uk - nullum documentum
congruit.

 1) Is there any dictionary that can confirm this? I haven't found any.
Sull'American Heritage e sul Merriam-Webster, dizionari AmE, trovi note sul
differente uso di "lonely" e "lonesome" che sembrano confermare una certa
maggiore intensità emotiva di "lonesome".
Il M-W utilizza proprio l'esempio "leads a lonesome life". 
"lonesome heightens the suggestion of sadness and poignancy 
<an only child often leads a lonesome life>"
Tuttavia, come hanno fatto notare anche altri, "lonesome" pare essere
termine ben più raro di "lonely", e probabilmente di uso più americano e
informale  (circa 1:7 su Google, 1:25 su Google Books, addirittura circa
1:40 nel BNC britannico). "Lonesome" però rimonta alla grande se cerchi per
esempio "lonesome cowboy"! Forse il senso più acuto di solitudine dipende
dalla sterminatezza delle praterie o dal carattere sentimentale dei
vaccari? ;D
	alone, lonely, lonesome, solitary These adjectives describe lack of
companionship. Alone emphasizes being apart from others but does not
necessarily imply unhappiness: “I am never less alone, than when I am
alone” (James Howell). Lonely often connotes painful awareness of being
alone: “‘No doubt they are dead,’ she thought, and felt . . . sadder and .
. . lonelier for the thought” (Ouida). Lonesome emphasizes a plaintive
desire for companionship: “You must keep up your spirits, mother, and not
be lonesome because I'm not at home” (Charles Dickens). Solitary often
stresses physical isolation that is self-imposed: I thoroughly enjoyed my
solitary dinner.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/29/A0222900.html
	alone, solitary, lonely, lonesome, lone, forlorn, desolate mean isolated
from others. alone stresses the objective fact of being by oneself with
slighter notion of emotional involvement than most of the remaining terms
<everyone needs to be alone sometimes>. solitary may indicate isolation as
a chosen course <glorying in the calm of her solitary life> but more often
it suggests sadness and a sense of loss <left solitary by the death of his
wife>. lonely adds to solitary a suggestion of longing for companionship
<felt lonely and forsaken>. lonesome heightens the suggestion of sadness
and poignancy <an only child often leads a lonesome life>. lone may replace
lonely or lonesome but typically is as objective as alone <a lone robin
pecking at the lawn>. forlorn stresses dejection, woe, and listlessness at
separation from one held dear <a forlorn lost child>. desolate implies
inconsolable grief at loss or bereavement <desolate after her brother's
death>.
http://m-w.com/dictionary/alone

 and poignancy <an only child often leads a lonesome life>. lone may replace
[...]
The strange thing is that the *Concise* M-W doesn't show this difference 
and many others dictionaries regards both terms as synonyms.
Anyway the test is flawed.
Thanks for your time.
Kiuhnm

 Anyway the test is flawed.
Questo lo temo anch'io, perché la frase usata non suggerisce un utilizzo
piuttosto che un altro, mi pare.
-- 

 and many others dictionaries regards both terms as synonyms.
and many  O T H E R  dictionaries  R E G A R D  both ...
Kiuhnm

 Non so. La versione Concise include anche le note d'uso?
It does have some usage notes, but obviously not all.
Anyway, let's consider the Longman Dictionary of *Contemporary* English 
which has tons of usage notes:
lonesome, American English
1 very unhappy because you are alone or have no friends [= lonely].
lonely
1 unhappy because you are alone or do not have anyone to talk to [= 
lonesome, American English]
There is no usage note about lonely vs lonesome.
Isn't it possible that in *Contemporary* English there isn't any more a 
real difference between lonesome and lonely?
Kiuhnm

 1 unhappy 
[...]
Secondo me, certe sfumature non le ricavi dalla semplice definizione da
dizionario, necessariamente sintetica, ma piuttosto dalle note d'uso, nei
dizionari che le riportano, dai manuali dedicati all'usage, o dalla
testimonianza diretta dei native speaker.

 wrote in message
news:xn0fcqze...@news.lillathedog.net...

 
http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/
"lonely life"         16
"lonesome life"    0
"single life"          22 (about half of which do not apply to this problem)
"alone life"            0
Joe from Massachusetts

 > "The adjective ´lonesomeĄ means dejected because of a lack of

This is a "country" song, written and recorded originally by Don Gibson, a
"country" singer.
Neil Young singing a Don Gibson song is like Little Tony singing a Roberto
Murolo song.   :>)
Other popular American songs:
Lonesome Lee, "Lonely Traveller"
Bobby Vinton, "Mr. Lonely"
Patsy Cline, "Lonely Street"
Patsy Cline. "Have You Ever Been Lonely"
Patsy Cline, "Seven Lonely Days"
Jackie Wilson, "Lonely Teardrops":
Wayne Kemp, "The Loneliest Heart in Town"
Dorsey Burnette, "Lonely Train"
Jack Tucker, "Lonely Man"
Terry Keaton, "Loneliness"
Jimmy Wise, "Lonely Thoughts"
The Recalls,."Lonely Wait"
Fred Netherton, "The Lonely Way"
Jim Akins, "Lonely Weekend"
Charley Rich, "Lonely Weekends"
Mickey Gilly, "Lonely Wine"
Comer Money, "Lonely World"
Lou Josie, "Lonely Years"
Kansas, "Lonely Wind"
I don't think we differentiate between "lonely" and "lonesome".
Joe from Massachusetts

 I don't think we differentiate between "lonely" and "lonesome".
That, more or less, was my point in quoting the songs ;)
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 testimonianza diretta dei native speaker.
Well, I've had enough of this topic: I've get rid of that inane 
exercises once and for all!!!
Kiuhnm


Yes, just like Elvis Presley turned "O Sole Mio" into his own masterpiece,
"There's No Tomorrow".
Certain songs have iconic value, such as Billie Holiday's "Everything
Happens to Me", Patsy Cline's "Sweet Dreams" or "I Fall to Pieces", Al
Hibbler's original version of "Unchained Melody", or Bob Marley's "No Woman
No Cry". You are always reminded of the original.
Without passing my personal judgement on the musical merit of the songs, I
don't think anyone could duplicate Gianni Meccia's "Il Barattolo", Modugno's
"Piove", Lucio Dalla's "4 Marzo 1943", Giorgio Gaber's "Non Arrossire", or
Wilma de Angelis's "Per tutta la vita". There have been many "covers" of
some of them, but the originals remain my favorites.
Joe from Massachusetts
.

 That, more or less, was my point in quoting the songs ;)
Mi dispiace non essere d'accordo con i vostri autorevoli pareri, ma a me
pare che almeno alcuni americani vedano una qualche differenza tra lonely e
lonesome, anche se ovviamente parliamo di sfumature, non di un significato
radicalmente diverso.
Perlomeno tre americani: chi ha scritto la nota di usage sul M-W online,
chi ha scritto quella sull'American Heritage, e chi ha scritto una pagina
web su tale differenza 
h2so4.net/artlove/lonesome.html
:P
Vedi anche
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208d&L=ads-l&P=17962
QUOTE
I've always thought "lonesome" was "lonely" with an emotive quotient
added in, but maybe that's JUST when it applies to the +human set.  I
know Bolinger talks about the difference somewhere, probably in
_Aspects of Language_ where he's doing his plug for his
there-ain't-no-true-synonymy line.
UNQUOTE
"there-ain't-no-true-synonymy" ;D
-- 

 some of them, but the originals remain my favorites.
Tra queste metterei anche Vecchio Frac: il mio cuore e le mie orecchie
*pretendono* che sia Modugno a cantarla :)
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 UNQUOTE
Of course the words are different and they have a slightly different 'feel'
to them. However, that difference in 'feel' has more to do with sound than
with connotation. I'm sorry to say that the three Americans were probably
piggybacking on each other's comments rather than thinking thoroughly about
the words. 'Lonesome' has no additional emotional quotient compared to
'lonely'. Being lonely can be a deeper and more profound state than being
lonesome, and here's the clincher, it depends on the context. I suspect it
might be like asking an Italian to explain the difference between 'fra' and
'tra' or 'qua' and 'qui'. You may get someone to explain the difference, but
it will be a personal perception, not a culture-wide difference in usage.



Sono perfettamente d'accordo su quest'ultima frase, come non esserlo?
Il mio parere non ha granché di autorevolezza... :) Però sono anche
convinta che sia pressoché impossibile dare una definizione "da dizionario"
di certe sfumature, o sostenere che in un dato contesto 'lonely' non possa
sostituire 'lonesome' o viceversa. Non me la sentirei di dire che "Only the
lonesome / know the way I feel tonight" è meno corretto di "Only the
Lonely", se non per ragioni... musicali. :)
'Cereo', 'cinereo' e 'spettrale' sono aggettivi diversi, con diverse
sfumature, ma piuttosto agevolmente intercambiabili per descrivere il
colorito estremamente pallido di un volto. Sono consapevole del fatto che
la sinonimia perfetta non esiste, ma anche pessimista riguardo alla
possibilità di capire senza ombra di dubbio quando devo usare 'lonely' e
quando 'lonesome', o assegnare tre distinte caselle a 'lovely', 'pretty' e
'cute'.
Per me la premessa è questa; tuttavia leggo con vivo interesse simili
discussioni di lana caprina ;)
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 I'm sorry to say that the three Americans
Actually five, counting the author of the message on the Linguist List and
the author of "Aspects of Language".
Even six, if we include this post from alt.usage.english.
QUOTE
I think "lonesome" and "lonely" are both in the US vocabulary, but
there's something about "lonesome" that makes people -- including men --
more willing to admit to feeling it. "I was feeling kinda lonesome, so
I..." If I'm right about that, it would leave "lonely" more likely to
describe how someone else felt -- "She was feeling pretty lonely, so
she..."
I definitely associate "lonesome" with cowboy & Westerns. I looked in
the Dictionary of Scots to see if it could have come via the Scots-Irish
route, but apparently not.
On the Trail of the Lonesome Pine...
You gotta walk... that lonesome valley...
I always thought "The Lonely Mountain" in _The Hobbit_ sounded a bit
strange because mountains don't have feelings. But "Lonesome Mountain"
wouldn't been much better -- it would have to have been "The Lone
Mountain." High ho.
-- 
Best -- Donna Richoux   
UNQUOTE
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/525a26aec215b6e8/a4bc81bcb2686296
-- 

 once and for all!!!
*got rid*!
*those inance exercises*
(you asked for correction in another message of yours!)
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"Solo che filosofare oggi, cosě ridotti come siamo, č come in una gelida 
giornata d'inverno farsi addosso una pisciatina per sentire un po' di 
teporino." (Giorgio Gaber) 

 congruit.
Wow, anche tu hai l'homepage in latino! Sarà già un mesetto però che hanno 
messo la versione nuova di google groups pure lì.
:-(
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"Solo che filosofare oggi, così ridotti come siamo, è come in una gelida 


 (you asked for correction in another message of yours!)
corrections 

 (you asked for correction in another message of yours!)
Yes, your corrections are really appreciated!
It's incredible how many *stupid* mistakes (i.e. related to things I 
know) I make.
Kiuhnm

 I've gotten rid of those inane exercises.
I'm quite sure "I've got" is also correct (UK?)
Kiuhnm

 I'm quite sure "I've got" is also correct (UK?)
I've got rhythm, who could ask for anything more? 

 wrote in message
news:tyxqznynzed7$.30goumquh79p.dlg@40tude.net...

Vecchio frack? La conosco come "L'uomo in frack". Ho trovato un mp3 anche.
Galleggiando dolcemente
e lasciandosi cullare
se ne scende lentamente
sotto i ponti verso il mare
verso il mare se ne va.
Chi mai sarà, chi mai sarà
quell'uomo in frack.
Adieu, adieu, adieu, adieu,
addio al mondo
ai ricordi del passato
ad un sogno mai sognato
ad un attimo d'amore
che mai più
ritornerà.
la, la, la la.....
Mi fa venire in mente un'altra canzone sentimentale, di Renato Carosone.
I'm sure this is one of Dicaduca's favorites.
T'è piaciuta? T'è piaciuta?
Tienatella cara cara!
T''a purtaste sull'altare,
sott''o braccio, 'nziem'a te.
Mo te vedo afflitto e stanco:
"Sù, coraggio...ué Giuvá'!
Se il mellone è uscito bianco,
e mo' cu chi t''a vuó' pigliá?!"
;>)
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:xn0fcrck...@news.lillathedog.net...

American "Country Music" thrives on misery and heartbreak. If Country Music
doesn't differentiate between "lonely" and "lonesome", then how can we?
Joe from Massachusetts


Yes indeed he did. I interpreted it almost as a fatwa.
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:13hqbql...@corp.supernews.com...

I got rhythm.
The right word is not always right, in a song.
Joe from Massachusetts

 The right word is not always right, in a song.
Oh yeah, you're right. It's 'I got rhythm'. What a sad state of affairs that 
I even correct song lyrics without thinking.

 Vecchio frack? La conosco come "L'uomo in frack". Ho trovato un mp3 anche.
Per quanto riguarda il titolo, credo che quello corretto sia 'Vecchio frac'
(era quello stampato sull'etichetta del 45 giri in mio possesso, se ben
ricordo) ma non ci giurerei; sono certa, invece, che si scriva 'frac' senza
il k. PLP :)
-- 
Ciao,
Anna

 corrections
al singolare proprio non va bene?
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"Solo che filosofare oggi, così ridotti come siamo, è come in una gelida 
giornata d'inverno farsi addosso una pisciatina per sentire un po' di 
teporino…" (Giorgio Gaber) 

 hanno messo la versione nuova di google groups pure lì.  :-(
Come si traduce "'tacci loro" in English? ;D
-- 

 we?
Doesn't it? "Lonely" is six times more frequent than "lonesome" in a
generic Google search, but "lonesome" is nine/ten times more frequent than
"lonely" if referred to a "cowboy"!
Proventus 1 - 10 inter 53,000,000 circiter pro lonely 
Proventus 1 - 10 inter  8,420,000 circiter pro lonesome. 
Proventus 1 - 10 inter 244,000 circiter pro "lonesome cowboy"
Proventus 1 - 10 inter  25,700 circiter pro "lonely cowboy"
-- 

 Come si traduce "'tacci loro" in English? ;D
Boh, faccio fatica a capire cosa vuol dire in italiano.
:-D


 wrote in message
news:58qauuumqhn6$.1lqfxb04506f8.dlg@40tude.net...

Si puņ vedere Modugno che canta "L'uomo in frac" qui, verso il cinquantesimo
minuto.
Impariamo anche che i primi a sentire la canzone erano Marco Aurelio e una
certa donna che passava per caso in macchina.
http://www.raiclicktv.it/raiclickpc/secure/folder.srv?id=1861#
"Omaggio a Modugno"
Joe from Massachusetts

 :-D
Te possino! :P
-- 

 Wilma de Angelis's "Per tutta la vita".
Forse però il primo e l'ultima non passeranno alla storia della musica italiana...

 "Piove", Lucio Dalla's "4 Marzo 1943", Giorgio Gaber's "Non Arrossire",
"non arrossire", wow! Conosci questa versione?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJZ90fJNASQ
Il doppio dvd "anni sessanta" è secondo me imperdibile.
http://www.internetbookshop.it/dvd/4029758778180/zzz/giorgio-gaber-gli.html
Inutile dire che sto aspettando con ansia che esca il volume "anni settanta"
http://www.internetbookshop.it/dvd/4029758858189/zzz/giorgio-gaber-gli.html
:-)
Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
-- 
"Solo che filosofare oggi, così ridotti come siamo, è come in una gelida 
giornata d'inverno farsi addosso una pisciatina per sentire un po' di 
teporino…" (Giorgio Gaber) 

 wrote in message
news:xn0fcsn3...@news.lillathedog.net...

"country music" + lonely  = 3 milioni
"country music" +  lonesome = 1.9 milioni
Joe from Massachusetts

 wrote in message
news:YXqTi.149996$%k.29...@twister2.libero.it...

Per quanto riguarda l'ultima, dico solo che sento qualcosa che tu non senti.
Per quanto riguarda "Il barattolö", chi la sente non la dimentica. Quel
barattolo rotolando, echeggiando.
C'ho un amico che cammina zoppiconi.
Una sera scherzava in piazza, tentando di replicare quel suono.
Ma non aveva l'apriscatole.......
Joe from Massachusetts