Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Titolo: Baking and roasting ( was Count Corelli's Mandolin)

Baking and roasting
----------------------------
The difference between baking and roasting was one the problems that drove
me mad during the time I worked in the hotel industry.
- We cannot say that ALL baked food is performed in the oven: a
*jacket potato* is called *baked potato* also if we cook it in the hot
ashes.
- We also cannot say that the difference depends on the temperature of the
oven: bread (which is *baked*) is performed more o less at the same
temperature of a
Yorkshire pudding,  but this last is a *roast-pork* not a *baked-pork*.
- Not the distance of the the food from the heat source makes any
difference, because modern  ventilated ovens perform the same temperature
all over.
We are wrong again if we say that *roast* is to be confined to meat and
vegetables, and *baked* to fish: see *baked potato* for instance.
Conclusion 1: I'm still waiting for somebody to explain me the difference.
Conclusion 2: the difference is a linguistic issue not a different method of
cooking.
If some of you doesn't agree with me, well... I have right here two trouts:
please let me have back, one *baked* and the other *roasted*.
They should appear and taste differently; right?
Regards,
Erny
Italy
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...
After following the debate on baking and roasting, I decided to drop both
terms in favor of a more neutral 'ovening'. By the way, why it is not used?
+--
I know you can't speak, I know you can't sign
So cry right here on the dotted line

 They should appear and taste differently; right?
That's right, they will. I would cook the baked trout, covered, and  in its own
juices in an oven with the entire oven at an even temperature. I would broil or
roast the other trout uncovered directly under the top burner, letting its oils
drip into a roasting pan. A trout roasted on a spit or on a grill also could not
be called "baked." If you think that couldn't taste a difference, I assure you
that I have tasted the difference.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 that I have tasted the difference.
Erny:
-------
Hi Ron.
I finished eating both trouts right now. Yes, there was a little difference:
you just forgot to salt one of them! :>))))))
But: you covered the baked trout! ...and *covering* is not a must for all
baked food.
Not only: you cooked the second trout in a way which is usually called
"grilled in the oven" ( when you also use the top burner and let the juice
drop). The most of the meat and fish roasts are performed in a roasting pan,
to save the juice (or gravy).
Anyway , you seem to be very skilled about food; here you have now two
elephants: cook them for my  breakfast...in the way you prefer! :>)))
A proposito: in Sardegna (dove sono nato) abbiamo un modo molto particolare
per cucinare il maiale: sottoterra!
Chissà, una volta cotto, se in inglese si deve definire *baked* oppure
*roasted*?
La questione continua... :>(((((((
Ciao,
Erny
Italy
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 terms in favor of a more neutral 'ovening'. By the way, why it is not
used?
Erny:
-------
Ovening, per quanto riguarda i cibi, dovrebbe avere il significato di
scaldare nel forno qualcosa di già cotto (magari per terminarne la cottura):
lasagne congelate, ad esempio.
Di più, non so.
Saluti
Erny
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 They should appear and taste differently; right?
You have two trout eh? How about smoking one and saving yourself the
trouble. :-))) 
But you're right, baking and roasting are two terms that have
attached themselves to certain foods, and if there was rhyme or
reason to it, it's probably long gone. An old American cookbook of
mine (1975) explains the difference : baked as covered, and roast as
uncovered (in a dry oven.) But naturally there are lots of
exceptions. No reference to roasted fish though. 
All I know is the difference between baked potato and roasted potato,
one with oil, one without and I cover neither of them and even my
baked potato may get rubbed in oil. :-)
Cheers,
Loki
-- 
  Brevity is the soul of wit.    W.Shakespeare

 you that I have tasted the difference.
Ok, let's try to find a compromise : )
How about to get down to the physical basis of the two methods?
Can we say that baking involves an heat exchange mainly due to
convection, while roasting relies more on conduction and irradiation ?
saluti,
Peltio
PS
Incidentally, and to make things worse, you could have eaten a 'trota ai
ferri'...
which is different from a 'trota alla griglia' in that the juices are not
allowed to drip through the grill into the fire (or the embers).
Or at least that's what I think it's the difference.
Next time, you'd better order a sushi.

 *roasted*?
How about alla filipino box spring? I hope you've been following this newgroup
for a while and understand that reference. If not, I'll just leave you
wondering.
Ciao,
Ron
USA


 convection, while roasting relies more on conduction and irradiation ?
That kind of logical discrimination would require that dictionaries become
prescriptive rather than descriptive and that the writers also know something
about cooking.
Ciao,
Ron
USA

 Yorkshire pudding,  but this last is a *roast-pork* not a *baked-pork*.
Dear Erny,
Whilst aware that possibly it was only enthusiasm which produced the
above-quoted lines, I should just like to point out for those who might not
be aware that Yorkshire Pudding is not in fact pork - nor indeed meat of any
kind and that furthermore, Yorkshire Pudding need not necessarily accompany
_only_ pork, but a number of different meats roasted in the oven.
I am particularly anxious that Buongiorgio not go into some sort of an
ecstatic gastronomic fit, given that it is well known he has a particular
fondness for crackling which oftentimes leads him to behave in a manner
which we are certain cannot be good for his health.
I remain as always - with taste-buds awakened,
Bambi
dtb


Ron, you are a genius; I finally know why he used that expression...
I'm sure He was so troubled by the roast/bake question that he
had to come out with another definition!


 wondering.
Erny:
-------
I missed that thread, but I found it on Google.
I think the sardinian method of cooking pork I mentioned is quite similar to
others performed in the past by poachers. I know that  in England, long time
ago ( when poarching in the royal properties was punished by capital
punishment, poachers used to cook the game buried in the soil, to hide as
long as possible the booty of hunting.
Maybe all methods of cooking food in  embers, or buried benieth the fire,
covered with clay (or tiles, or leaves),  have this ancient origin.
Ciao
Erny
Italy
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 _only_ pork, but a number of different meats roasted in the oven.
Erny:
-------
I should go to sleep without dinner; or worse  - without sex -, for what I
wrote.
The fact that I worked in England as waiter for over a year, and  years
later I took some summer courses at Cornell University, Ithaca, NY (of which
two in Food Management), are proves that  I'm guilty without extenuating
circumstances.
Let me tell you, anyway, that at Victoria Hotel in Nottingham ( where I
worked in 1977) roast pork was served  with Y.P. every Thursday at
lunchtime; and on the menu  it was listed as * Yorkshire Pudding*, with no
mention at all about the kind of meat.
I try to guess why:
-1 - Notts' people eat Y.P. only with roast pork.
- 2 - It was a printer's (or F&B manager's) omission.
- 3 - There was not need to specify the kind of meat because it was served
on the heated trolley, and the customer could see it.
Who knows?
Uhm..maybe I have a GOOD reason now to go back to Nottingham.
Ciao
Erny
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Hey Erny, and what about the famous "fil'e'ferru" ? I understand that that
method has just about the same origins, right?


 method has just about the same origins, right?
Erny:
-------
Yes, you are right!
Per lungo tempo ho creduto il nome doveva dare l'idea di qualcosa di forte,
come appunto il fil di ferro.
Invece, il fil di ferro serve per individuare la damigiana di acquavite
 grappa per l'esattezza) che viene nascosta in giardino da chi illegalmente
distilla le vinacce in casa propria.
Saluti
Erny
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-- 
John G Davies


-- 
John G Davies

 terms in favor of a more neutral 'ovening'. By the way, why it is not used?
Just learn the rules instead of inventing words. ;-) There's no
avoiding them.
Why can't I say "i diti "  f'rinstance :-))) 


 that I have tasted the difference.
Ah ha, so what you call roasted trout is really grilled trout.
Anything cooked by top heat is called grilled in the two countries I
know about, and I suspect, England. Roasts are cooked using surround
or bottom heat (in an oven) And no, I don't have a modern oven with
fans or spits or anything like that, so it's more bottom heat, even
for my fish fingers...
As for broiled, it's never used here, in fact it took me a long time
to find out what it meant, I kept thinking it was like boiled. 


 Next time, you'd better order a sushi.
Isn't that sashimi? Sushi seems to involve rice and may or may not
have fish with it. Perhaps we could check with
it.cultura.linguistica. giapponese :-)
Cheers,


 it.cultura.linguistica. giapponese :-)
no needs, you're right
sashimi is a slice of raw fish while sushi is a small ball of rice with
vinegar and horseradish and at last on the top the slice of raw fish
my passion

 vinegar and horseradish and at last on the top the slice of raw fish
Every day I learn something new.
I'll better stick to old plain spaghetti.
saluti,
Peltio



It's a very common mistake made by english speakers, I suspect it
will never get corrected. 
By coincidence, as these things happen, yesterday I was chatting to a
woman making bento and she referred to 'nashimi' which is the raw
fish on top of rice.
Think I'l stick to cooked fish.... :-)
