Newsgroup: it.lavoro.informatica
Titolo: C#/.NET Developer consultant seeking Torino

Hi
Sorry, but I don't speak Italian and I don't know if this is the right news 
group.
Anyway, I am a 41 year old software developer consultant with 15+ year of 
experience in various area of the IT business. I am planing to relocate in 
the Torino area and is wondering about the need for highly profesional 
C#/.NET developers in the area, and how good the salery is.
I come from Denmark where I work for the #1 consulting firm in Microsoft 
infrastructure solutions TOPNORDIC, where I create provisioning solutions 
developed in C#, both WindowsForm, 
ASP.NET
 and Web Services. In the highest 
tax-loaded country in the EU a good software developer can earn about 
56-64.000 euro per year, but we also got a tax-pressure about 55% at the 
highest income.
I am wondering that the income is in Italy, where the tax pressure is about 
25-45% and low prices on automobiles, and so
Please reply, and if the you got a hint for an opputunity in the Torino 
area, please contact me at : anders AT tollestrup DOT dk.
Best regards
Anders

 C#/.NET developers in the area, and how good the salery is.
Hi,
may I ask you what would bring you there?
-- 
Salvatore Iovene
http://www.iovene.com

 wrote in message 
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 news group.
Yes, it is.
Welcome to this newsgroup, Anders.
-- 
FabMind

 I think it is about to live out our dream...
Sorry for what may just look as cynicism to an outsider like you, but I'm 
almost obliged to tell you that your is, well, only a dream.
Italy can look great to tourists, but living here is quite difficult, 
*particularly* for people working in I.T., as Italy is probably the most 
backward of Western countries, when it comes to this particular topic.
Tax pressure is also quite high (usually more than 40%, when adding IVA, 
IRPEF, IRAP, INPS and so on), and the same is true for house prices, if you 
plan to live in a medium or big city.
You'll also find that's quite difficult to get a full-time, permanent job 
here: most companies will only hire you for short-lived "projects" (which 
most often are only a way to circumvent Italy's labour legislation and send 
you home when they don't need you anymore), and if you're skilled, many of 
them will also probably reject your application, preferring someone less 
skilled but cheaper.
Almost everybody that's working in I.T. here agrees this is one of the worst 
countries for this job, and would like to go somewhere else.
Massimo

 worries :-)
You seem to be, to say the least, quite naive! :)


 wrote in message 
news:f56n9u$2pt3$1...@newsreader1.mclink.it...
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Hi, welcome in this italian newsgroup...
So, you're looking for a job in Italy....
I think that you'll find a lot of difference between Denmark and
Italy; me too, I spent 4 month in Aalborg and that's was very
different from Italian lifestyle.
You'll find more cars, more junk and almost the Denmark's same level
of tax (except for the cars); also find a good job it's very
difficult, also if you're more experienced...
The best way for you to work in Italy is IMHO  to work as freelancer
in Northern Europe and UK, you'll be paid better
Good Luck
P.S.
Where do you come from in Denmark?

 wrote in message 
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So, maybe do you know also Novi in the buildings of AAU, I worked
there; I went in Nibe and that's whas very nice :-)
I think that in Italy you have to speak italian, not for the job
(maybe you could find also some project where you could speak
english), but for daily life, the people does'nt speak english. For
example, in my company there is some developers that come from China
or Germany and they speak english for the job, but also some word of
italian...

 to speak well Italien to get at project in Italy ?
Yes. Let alone English...


 an issue to speak well Italien to get at project in Italy ?
It ain't necessarily so. In some cases, an Italian company could/would 
be very glad to employ a foreigner that speaks a very fluent and good 
English (something that the typical Italian hardly do).
Moreover, Italians are usually provincial, looking to the other 
Europeans like if they are automatically good professionals just because 
they speak so well English :)
So, propose yourself, look professional and make it a try. Just don't 
expect big money.
ciao, U.

 worries :-)
It seems that everything you know about Italy you learned it from the
TV serial "the Sopranos"... what about "pizza, macarroni and spagetti" ?
I think that this is not exactly the best way, or the professional way,
to start searching for a job in Torino.
A.

 settle down and enjoy the moment.
Hello Anders,
you must understand that Denmark is a very neat country compared to
Italy.
If we do 100 the efficiency and professionality in Denmark, in
northern Italy this would be 80, in Rome
60, and so on with a linear (or exponential??) progression until
almost 0
(zero) in some zones of southern Italy.
And, in my opinion, if you want to live with a beautiful panorama, in
a relaxed
ambient with a good climate, Torino is not the best choice. Why not
Rome?
PS: I am from Rome, of course! :-))

 to speak well Italien to get at project in Italy ?
It's not mandatory. That's depend on where you'll
work. I worked six years by Ericsson in Rome and in the last year an
hungarian young boy was in our team: he spoke hungarian and english and
no Italian. This if you work in a big company like Ericsson. 
If you'll work in a small factory, you'll probably have to learn some
italian.
About freelance... Warning: in Italy there's the worst law of the world
(It's really *the worst*, although most italians say it's not)  about 
"job market" regulation. If you simply answer to a recruiter on the
internet, you have to take into account that he'll probably will have a
contract with you and you'll go to work with a company that *doesn't know*
the recruiter with which you've signed a contract (the company buying
office we'll have a list of authorized recruiters and, probably, your
recruiter will be not in that list) . The recruiter will
ask you to go to work in that company and he'll ask you not to say 
that you signed a contract with him (probably he'll ask you to say that
you have a contract with an authorized recruiter). 
If the company discover that you have a contract with
him and not with an authorized recruiter, the company could "fire"  you
both
(you and the recruiter), altough this usually never happen. 
You know, to live in illegal situations "on the
job" is what italians love more than any other thing in the world .
Ciao,
Marco.
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minkia che frasona in inglese , complimenti !!
ma potevi aggiungere qualcosaltro , che diamine !
Ti vorrei vedere turista a Londra :Noio volevam savuąr ....

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 believe the IT business is concentrated in Torino og Rome.
Milano could be a much better choice than Torino, since Milano is to Italy's 
business what Rome is to government.
Massimo

 Hi
Anders,
for the love of jesus, stay away from this country. You like extreme 
snowriding, and food, and a clean place, well stick directly to Swiss mate, 
and go on enjoying the spaghettiland just for holidays and shopping, and if 
you like cheap cars you can seek in Germany for a poke of opportunities of 
no-VAT VW from parallel mark't. IT situation here is totally CRAP and it 
could worth well only with an indetermined contract (ONLY indetermined) in 
M$ or a direct empliyment in a huge multinational. Bear in mind here many 
big IT and Telcos have smashed into bankrupt and foreclosures in the last 5 
yrs.
For the peanuts-brained manager eggheads a 41 yo mate is too old, too cool, 
too expensive, they prefer young and brilliant with strong ambition, 
available to be paid in peanuts ad to receive kick in ass whenever  it need. 
Most of the 50 position you saw are just low-level contracrtors or body 
rental, those we call "peracottari", "sellers of cooked pears", all small 
sub-sub-companies those are all goners within few years, and the right 
people to meet with your back firmly tied to the wall.
Your IT experience here could turn in a squat even in a multinational. We 
are "in italy" so forget corrrectness, and respect. 

 ha scritto nel 
messaggio news:f59jme$8oi$1...@aioe.org...

Sad, but true.
Couldn't have said it better :-(
Massimo

"peracottari", "sellers of cooked pears"
Questa è meravigliosa, me la segno :-D
Massimo

 Pizza and Pasta ;-)
Maybe in Europe.
Not in the US
P

 C#/.NET developers in the area, and how good the salery is.
Ok, let me be brutal.
You are 41 years old, so you are to be considered "Expensive" and you
*WILL* have a terrible time finding a job (if any).
Probably you will have a 80%chance to land a job that will pay
anywhere between 1200 and 2000 Euro/month GROSS and can be terminated
anytime without a second thought and without any real reason.
17% Chance to go between 2000 and 2500
2% Chance to be between 2500 and 3000
1% Chance to get over 3000Euro/Month (But only if you know someone
REALLY important)
You see, Italy does not really care about WHAT you know, but about WHO
you know.
I totally agree with you that Italy is a beautiful country, but yours
is the "point of view" of a TOURIST.
LIVING in Italy is a totally different ballgame.
I definitely suggest to look somewhere else. I'm in the US
Have a great day!
Piero

 outdated ;-)
But surely 90% of them are from "Body Rentals" that will exploit your
skills paying you peanuts.
Piero

 for the love of jesus, stay away from this country.
Si dice "For Christ's sake" o "For Jesus's Sake"!
Comunque sono totalmente d'accordo, e adoro il "Sellers of Cooked
Pears"
Starebbe meglio "Cooked Pears Seller", ma si capisce lo stesso.
P

 Starebbe meglio "Cooked Pears Seller", ma si capisce lo stesso.
Vero. Purtroppo il mio inglese è un po' arrugginito. 

 REALLY important)
Dont be SO brutal mate
Just say NET not GROSS, anyway he's not a graduate freshman seeking for a 
stage.
it is enough staying away from "peracottari" :-)
But the overall situation doesn't change so it's better to pass the fronteer 
only in shorts and sandals. 

 /Anders
May be it's help, but usually is not mandatory.
You should keep in mind that  because of the worst law of the world
(here is a link; only in Italian, sorry but I've no time to translate
http://www.parlamento.it/leggi/deleghe/03276dl.htm
), 
Italian big companies or nonitalian companies that operate in Italy
can use auctions as a way for "rates rebating".
That is in a period of 2 years the company calls for an auction where
the authorized recruiters can partecipate (may be that auction is
not the exact english translation; sorry, I'm not english mothertongue). 
The company can ask for example
for "a mass of" 100 programmers, a mass of 50 system administrators, 
a mass of 20 analysts,and so on. The recruiters that partecipate in the
auction makes an offer and the company will choose as authorized recruiter
for the next 2 year the one who asked the lowest rate (for example if
recruiter A and recruiter B want to provide the 100 programmers to the
company and A asks  300 Euro/day for each programmer and B asks 250
Euro/day for each programmer => B will be the official programmers
provider for the next 2 years). In this
way the salary of programmers and other technicians is going to be lowered
forever. Moreover the official "winner" of the auction, often do not
offer to the company his people but use people from other recruiters
(nonoffical recruiters that are unknown to the company => and the more
recruiters are between you and the company, the lower is your salary).
So italian companies don't care so much about your technical 
competence. The important thing is that you accept to work for low
salary.  This is what happened in Ericsson in Rom. There were
auctions  in 2003 and 2006. I thing in 2 years there will be another.
And I had to look for another job because in 2006 my recruiter lost the
auction.
And this is what happens with every big company operating in Italy.
Don't expect that a certicifation will increase the probability to get a
better salary. 
When I worked in Ericsson, a manager told us clearly: 
"we are looking  for competent people, so we invite you to follow upgrade
courses and have certifications [saying that the recruiter should have paid
for this, but in Italy no recuiter pays for this and he knew it very well]
but don't see the improvement of your competence as a way to improve your
salary".
If you still want to come in Italy... good luck to you.


 issue to speak well Italien to get at project in Italy ?
<cough> Anders, just to smile a few, Italian is mandatory even more if you 
stick to freelancer world. Peracottari contractors are not like brilliant 
multinational managers, and their english stops at "uacciuuari uari" 

 REALLY important)
The real truth is: the italian economy is much more weak than the one
of many others countries of northern Europe.
There are very very few companies than can afford to pay
a software as in Denmark, for example. Then the same is for
the monthly pay. Italy is a nation more poor than Denmark (generally
speaking)!
Ciao

 multinational managers, and their english stops at "uacciuuari uari"
Exactly. Imagine that there are even professionals that expose
themselves in IT related newsgroup using dialectal, offensive and
(in)famous nick names. It may seem impossible, but it's true!
ciao, U.

 (in)famous nick names. It may seem impossible, but it's true!
that's my point exactly
maybe UC stays for Ua Cciuariuari  ?

 ha scritto nel messaggio

How did you know that?!
ciao, U.


Beacuse Tacci Tua stays for TT, and i am a strong extimator of the TT 600 
mono
you know ? 
po-po-po-po-po-po-sdrummm-po-po-po-po-po-po-sdrummm-po-po-po-po-po-po...
I have two ones of them in my garage. 

 wrote in message 
news:1182332121.8...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Agreed! Our economy is very good and stable at the moment. As mentioned 
before the un-employment rates are one of the lowest in Europe and the 
saleries a very high. But to compare the two job markets (Italy and Denmark) 
you have to look at the net income and costs of nessesary expenses to run a 
home.
A typical software developer earns about 40000-56000 euro per year before 
tax. With the highest tax-pressure in Europe (about 55%), the net income 
goes down to 18000-25200 euro per year. For that net income you have to pay 
for:
- housings, similar prices in both countries (Yes, a 50m2 appartment in 
Copenhagen costs more than 250000 euro!)
- automobile, costs approx. 210% more in Denmark (Yes, eg. the new Ford 
Mondeo Wagon TDCi hit the streets at 56000 euro!)
- food and consumer products cost approx. 15-25% more in Denmark
Bottomline, we may have a high salery rate in Denmark, but our net income is 
not su much higher than Italy and France levels. Furthermore, the euro has 
more value in Italy compared to Denmark's high price on automobiles and 
consumer products. Means a lot for a developer consultant, who drives about 
100000 kilometres per year ;-)
Caio,
/Anders


Thank you for these numbers. I did not know the real taxes and prices
for day life
in Denmark. They are really impressive. We italians complain too much,
also this is really
true... :-)
Good luck ! :-)