Newsgroup: it.lavoro.informatica
Titolo: Accesso sequenziale a file

Forse sono un po' OT ma questo e' il NG adatto per trovare colleghi piu' 
all'altezza di me.
Sapete se esiste un modo per imporre un accesso sequenziale a file 
condivisi? mi spiego meglio:
ho una cartella contenente file di vario tipo e N utenti che accedono a 
questi file da remoto.
Ora se un utente A apre un file nella cartella condivisa e un utente B 
dopo un po fa la stessa cosa, se A modifica il file e B fa altrettanto, 
al salvataggio le modifiche di uno dei due andranno perse.
Esiste un modo per dare un accesso "sequenziale" ? ... se A apre il file 
a B non e' permesso di aprirlo.
Il software utilizzato dagli utente ovviamente non prevede alcun lock 
sui file ...
Grazie per l'eventuale risposta.

 a B non e' permesso di aprirlo.
Questo genere di accesso non si chiama sequenziale. Devi imporre un lock
con tutti i problemi che i lock si portano dietro.
-- 
Lawrence - 
http://www.oluyede.org/blog
http://www.neropercaso.it
"Nothing is more dangerous than an idea
if it's the only one you have" - E. A. Chartier

 condivisi?
Se il programma non lo prevede no.

 
Purtroppo il programma non lo prevede e devo cercare di fare in modo che 
sia previsto ugualmente (eventualmente anche cambiando filesystem o 
utilizzando strumenti alternativi che lo permettano).
Hai eventualmente suggerimenti in tal senso?
Grazie per la risposta.

 sui file ...
E il sistema operativo consente al mondo di scrivere in modo
contemporaneo sullo stesso file?? Strano, mooolto strano. Comunque, se
non vuoi usare un DBMS, una opportuna strategia di locking, unita a una
strategia di sincronizzazione, è l'unica cosa che ti puo' salvare.
-- 
Ciao!
Luca

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:454486d1$0$7639$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...

Vale la mia risposta di cui sopra.
E' il programma che decide lo sharing quando apre un file. Quel programma, 
semplicemente, non è pensato per utilizzare risorse condivise.

no ... forse mi sono spiegato male (grazie comunque per l'aiuto).
Mi spiego meglio:
Ho una cartella condivisa con file contenenti progetti di vario tipo 
(non software).
A questa cartella accedono n persone per fare modifiche su questi progetti.
Ora se A e B supponiamo aprano lo stesso file per fare delle modifiche.
A e B apportano le loro modifiche e salvano il loro progetto.
Se B e' l'ultimo a salvare perdo le modifiche che ha fatto A.
La soluzione sarebbe che quando A apre il file a B venga segnalato che 
il file e' aperto e non permetta la scrittura ... un po' come avviene 
con i documenti Word etc solo che in questo caso non ho a che fare con 
Word perche' il software non prevede questo tipo di lock.
Pensavo anche di applicare un sistema tipo CVS per il controllo di 
versione ... ottimi per progetti software ma non adatti per progetti 
tipo CAD etc (se non previsti dal software in questione).

 da il meglio di se. Perché non usi un DBMS?
Un DBMS darebbe il meglio di se nell'accesso esclusivo ai file?

 CAD etc (se non previsti dal software in questione).
Sistemi di controllo versione possono andare benissimo per il tuo caso a 
patto che supportino il checkout esclusivo.
CVS ad esempio non mi sembra il piů adatto, mentre SourceSafe un po' di piů. 
La ragione č che quest'ultimo obbliga l'utente a un checkout esclusivo 
(caratteristica che nei progetti di sviluppo č una palla al piede, ma che a 
te serve).

Grazie per l'aiuto.
Pensavo anche a SubVersion o al semplice utilizzo di WebDAV scrivendo un 
  software adatto al caso (dato che non ci sono particolari esigenze) 
... tenendo conto che non ho a che fare con file di testo ma file binari 
(importantissimi e che non possono essere persi).

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:45448ed6$0$13769$4faf...@reader3.news.tin.it...

Esatto, e non possono nemmeno essere confrontati come file di testo. Per 
questo suggerivo di dirigerti su un sistema di versioning che obblighi in 
qualche modo al checkout esclusivo.

 
Grazie mille per i tuoi suggerimenti.

 all'altezza di me.
Lascia paerdere il discorso dell'OT che qui è di casa, anche per delle
cose molto futili.
Sei, invece, benvenuto, dato che hai postato una domanda seria in modo
serio, e benché questa non riguardi in un senso stretto scambio di
esperienze lavorative, riguarda una problematica con la quale molti
informatici prima o poi hanno a che fare.
Per la risposta alla tua domanda, vedo che dei suggerimenti te li hanno
già dati, non aggiungerei altro. Buona fortuna.

 Un DBMS darebbe il meglio di se nell'accesso esclusivo ai file?
No, nel consentirti di decidere quale strategia di locking e di
sincronizzazione adottare. Pero', come ha specificato meglio il nostro
amico, l'applicazione che aveva in mente lui č differente rispetto a
quella che avevo in mente io.
-- 
Ciao!
Luca


SVN.
-- 
Salvatore Iovene
http://www.iovene.com

 informatici prima o poi hanno a che fare.
sono d'accordo.
oltretutto non è nemmeno un problema tecnico specifico ad una 
particolare piattaforma, quindi non ci sarebbe nemmeno da indirizzare su 
un NG più appropriato.
-- 
FabMind

 La ragione è che quest'ultimo obbliga l'utente a un checkout esclusivo
Se intendi che dopo il checkout devi prima "sbloccare" un file e
metterlo in edit altrimenti non lo puoi modificare si può fare pure
con CVS: le prime versioni di WinCVS erano progettate proprio per
lavorare così, anche se non è il modo "standard" di utilizzare CVS. E
il fatto di disporre gratuitamente di WinCVS come frontend può essere
effettivamente un plus, se i client utilizzano windows (se non mi
sbaglio SourceSafe costa...). Credo che si durerebbe senz'altro meno
fatica che non a realizzarsi pezzi di software apposta. Ultimamente poi
si fa un gran parlare di subversion, ma su quello non ho esperienza,
non so che dotazioni di software abbia. E' vero anche che CVS con i
file binari non lavora in maniera granchè efficiente.
In generale comunque utilizzare un software di versioning, se stiamo
parlando di documenti preziosi e modificati concorrentemente da più
persone, sia senz'altro raccomandabile. Le uniche controindicazioni che
mi vengono in mente potrebbero essere problemi di storage se i file in
questione dovessero essere molto grandi (infatti con il versioning i
client non lavorano direttamente sul repository ma su una loro copia
locale, quindi ogni file deve essere replicato su ogni macchina client)
e sicuramente un po' di problemi con gli utenti che devono abituarsi
all'"overhead" di dover fare il ciclo checkout/commit/update invece che
il semplice apri/salva.
Io pero' ci proverei, una volta introdotto la robustezza aggiuntiva
data dal sistema sarà approvata da tutti...
bye

Oltre alla soluzione SVN o SubVersion pensavo anche a questo (e chiedo a 
voi se possibile dei pareri):
WebDAV + NetDRIVE
Attivo un webserver con WebDAV e su ogni client installo NetDrive con 
accesso a web folder condivisa.
Tramite NetDRIVE posso bloccare o sbloccare una risorsa in maniera 
semplice ... peccato non venga fatto in maniera automatica all'apertura.
Che ne pensate?

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.
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
 segnala gli abusi ad 
ab...@newsland.it

No guarda ... se mi hai confuso per quello solo perche' uso Pippo come 
nome hai proprio sbagliato...
Pensa un po' piu' positivo su' ...

 Che ne pensate?
Penso che non era il caso che aprissi un nuovo thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette
Scusa, non mi ero accorto che in realta' avevi solo cambiato il
subject.


 patto che supportino il checkout esclusivo.
si vabuo' ... la segretaria che probabilmente deve usare file di
excel e word gli si fa fare checkout del cvs.
-- 
echo onailimissaM | awk 'BEGIN { FS = "" }
{ for (i = NF; i >= 1; i-- )
  printf $i }'; echo

 
Grazie per il tuo ulteriore contributo. Hai altre idee o suggerimenti ?

 
... a parte che alla segretaria si puo' dare un altro tipo di accesso su 
un altra cartella condivisa.

 excel e word gli si fa fare checkout del cvs.
Domanda, perché no?
-- 
Ciao!
Luca

 file a B non e' permesso di aprirlo.
Aprirlo o salvarlo?
Se č vera la seconda ti basta un qualsiasi sistema che preveda le operazioni 
di checkin-checkout.
Le raccolte documenti dei Windows Sharepoint Services sarebbero piů che 
sufficienti.
Saluti.

 excel e word gli si fa fare checkout del cvs.
Sei distratto. Word ed Excel sono proprio i due esempi di programmi che 
non hanno problemi di concorrenza.
A parte questo, esistono front-end talmente integrati e facili da usare 
che persino i programmatori più idioti riescono a versionare il proprio 
lavoro, figuriamoci una segretaria un po' sveglia.

 subject.
Non è la sola cosa di cui devi scusarti.
"If you believe someone has violated netiquette, send him or her a 
message by private e-mail; *do* *not* post a follow-up to the offending 
post."
Questa frase non viene dallo spazio ma direttamente dal tuo link.
Secondo quale logica tu sei sollevato da rispettare le regole che tu 
stesso indichi con cotanta saccenza?

 post."
Beh...forse la netiquette dice questo, ma avrei qualche dubbio che in
questo caso sarebbe conforme con la legge sulla privacy.
E poi, stando a quello che riporti tu, anche tu avresti violato la
netiquette, facendo il follow-up qui (e anch'io del resto, ma
personalmente preferisco rispettare la legge).

stesso indichi con cotanta saccenza?
Direi forse il fatto che il tizio a cui si rivolgeva non aveva un
indirizzo email valido, contro ogni buon senso e netiquette ?
-- 
Legge di Flon
Non c'e' linguaggio in cui sia difficile scrivere cattivi programmi.
FAQ del gruppo : 
http://www.sen.it/faq/it.lavoro.informatica.faq.html


Secondo me questo è il tipo di applicazione dove potresti usare un
documentale.
Ovvio che dipende quanto il cliente desideri spendere...

 
no ... non credo voglia arrivare a tanto. Grazie comunque :-)

 Saluti.
Propriamente per quello prima proponevo un documentale: Sharepoint è
il classico esempio
di documentale puro...

 di documentale puro...
Beh, fa pure altre cose...

Salve, son lo spammer arcano
e se odi lo spam ti vado nell'ano
ti ci vado assai profondo
per dir tutta la verità
ma si sa che a questo mondo
cosa fatta capo ha
Le cose serie non mi voglion piacere
e non ci tengo a famiglia avere
non ci tengo a lavorare
ma solo una cosa io amo fare
ed è quella di spammare
In passato, a me si è opposto un tizio
tale Mindoli Fabrizio
lui mi aveva promesso guerra,
guerra a me e ai miei messaggi
fatto sta che sulla Terra
nessun l'ha fatto fino ad oggi
Se comunque tu,  vuoi il sangue mio
a Follonica* io sto
ma io invece vo in oblio
e ti ci faccio anche to'!
Perché tanto ormai già io so
che a parlar son buoni tanti
ma al numero centotrentuno
non ci viene mai nessuno
Ah! Quasi mi scordavo, porcaccio il pisello
la via è sempre quella, quella via del Cassarello!
* Follonica(GR)


 personalmente preferisco rispettare la legge).
Ebbene si, stando a quello che ho riportato io anche io ho violato la 
netiquette.
Ma lo sai qual'è il problema?
Il problema è che con quella frase io ho citato lui.