Newsgroup: it.lavoro.informatica
Titolo: a proposito di banche

http://www.primeur.com/about_us/cc_opensource/pdf/OpenSource_BPM_ita.pdf
quali sono i vantaggi e gli svantaggi di una scelta di questo tipo?
Tra i vantaggi metterei  sicurezza e consistenza delle machhine desktop
con la politica aziendale (è meno probabile che l'utente si installi
schifezze varie), probabilmente spendono meno anche di licenze software
(o no?) però mi rimane il dubbio che i costi di implementazione e di
manutenzione  (compreso l'help desk) possano essere lievitati (o no?).
Non è mia intenzione entrare in modalità "get the facts", però 'sta
cosa mi ha fatto pensare.
Ciao

WillCoyote ha scritto:


Avendoci lavorato due anni in quel progetto, ne potrei parlare per ore
(cosa che non faro')
Dunque, sono da separare innanzitutto i due ambiti:
- macchine client 
- mainframe
Per quanto riguarda le macchine client, la soluzione (come si legge) è
stata una versione (customizzata, nel senso di privata di praticamente
tutte le applicazioni) di suse. In pratica cio' che gli utenti potevano
utilizzare era solo mozilla, staroffice e x3270.
Verissimo il discorso sul risparmio in licenze software e
sull'impossibilità da parte degli utenti di pasticciare. Da questo punto
di vista capisco poco la scelta di staroffice..
Per quanto riguarda la scelta di mozilla, è derivata piu' che altro dal
fatto che la prima fase del progetto inizio' (se non erro) nel 2001, epoca
in cui di firefox ancora non si parlava.
Si tratta complessivamente di una buona scelta secondo me, che non ha dato
grossi problemi dal punto di vista dell'assistenza agli utenti e che ha
garantito grossi risparmi (si parla di numeri nell'ordine 5000 licenze [o
giu di li] di windows e office risparmiate)
Per quanto riguarda la soluzione server, tutto è consolidato su un
z-series (il cosiddetto mainframe) sui cui girano diverse macchine
virtuali con Suse Linux Enterprise Edition. L'application server è
WebSphere (quindi piattaforma J2ee per chi non fosse pratico)
L'idea di aggregare in un unica macchina fisica tutti i sistemi aziendali
(in vm diverse, con Linux come os) di per sè non è affatto male da molti
punti di vista (gestione, manutenzione, sicurezza fisica)
Personalmente (ma non ho dati alla mano) non sono sicuro che sia anche la
soluzione piu' cost-effective , perchè un mainframe ha un costo
considerevole ed egualmente le espansioni (memorie e processori); sarei
curioso di capire quanto potrebbe costare una architettura ugualmente
potente basata su server Sun (che pure economici non sono) o Intel/based.
C'è anche da considerare che l'architettura z-System/Linux/Websphere è
molto meno collaudata di una classica Intel/Linux/Websphere, se si guarda
il numero di installazioni. Insomma, la prima è rara da vedere nella vita,
mentre la seconda è diffusissima (anche in ambienti bancari). Cio' ha
comportato il dover affrontare nel corso del progetto una serie di
problematiche (difetti di gioventu' del sw, ma anche inesperienza dei
sistemisti su queste piattaforme) che hanno creato qualche grattacapo.
Questo è quanto, almeno per questo post. Se hai altre curiosità, chiedi
pure
--
  Mopo
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
 segnala gli abusi ad 
ab...@newsland.it

 ogni tipo...MPS, ad esempio, la mia banca...
Intendiamoci, non è stato un progetto al risparmio! 
Ovviamente è vero che sui desktop c'è un abbattimento dei costi di
licenza, oltre che il totale affrancamento dalle politiche di Microsoft o
affini che rilasciano nuove versioni ogni 18 mesi per "invitare" gli
utenti all'upgrade.
Lato server si tratta pero' di una soluzione dal costo di milioni di euro
(non chiedetemi quanto di preciso, perchè i listini di mainframe sono "ad
personam" e io non li conosco), che pur basata su Linux ha una grossa
componente di software commerciale (delle famiglie Websphere/CICS/IMS)
Sicuramente si poteva essere piu' "coraggiosi" sul lato server, e spingere
ancora di piu' su piattaforme e sistemi open source. Tuttavia le banche
non sono proprio ambienti di "cuor di leone", e tutto sommato non gli si
puo' dare neanche troppo torto....


 sistemisti su queste piattaforme) che hanno creato qualche grattacapo.
E gli utenti, come hanno visto la novità?
-- 
Ciao!
Luca

 E gli utenti, come hanno visto la novità?
La novità-Linux non mi sembra abbia mai suscitato particolari obiezioni. 
Quello che è stato difficile è stato garantire attraverso il browser un
livello di operatività e produttività pari alla vecchia applicazione
desktop.
In altre parole gli sportellisti di una banca sono talmente "in simbiosi"
con la loro applicazione che si aspettano che essa abbia:
- tempi di risposta rapidi
- buffering dei caratteri digitati (ovvero iniziano a compilare il form
prima ancora di vederlo apparire, tanto lo sanno già a memoria!)
- tutta una serie di shortcut da tastiera per accedere alle funzionalità
- validazione on-the-fly dei dati inseriti (date, importi, pecentuali..)
Creare tutto questo sul browser (copiando esattamente il comportamento
dell'applicazione precedente, errori e stranezze compresi ;-) è un bagno
di javascript che non auguro a nessuno, con conseguenti mal di testa
quando si è trattato di migrare ad una versione successiva di Mozilla.
E le lamentele degli utenti si sono sempre fatte sentire quando
l'applicazione, acceduta attraverso browser, non si comportava secondo i
criteri che ho esposto sopra.


On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:53:19 +0200, 
mo...@despammed.com
 (Mopo) wrote:
credo che effettivamente gli unici irisparmi possibili fossero lato
client, dubito che lato server per qualsiasi tipo di vendor e/o
architettura ci si allontanasse molto dai milioni di euro da te
citati, neanche con l'adozione di piattaforme piů autenticamente open
source (chessň anzichč websphere un tomcat o qualunque altro
application server/servlet container, che cmq visto il tipo di
architettura in cui si inseriva avrebbe richiesto ben piů forti
personalizzazioni di quanto non abbia richiesto, forse, il webpalla, e
senza cmq la "garanzia" che ti offe un fornitore delle dimensioni di
IBM)
Esperienza interessantissima comunque.

 E gli utenti, come hanno visto la novità?
gli utenti, diciamolo chiaramente, devono stare zitti e basta.
Prima avevano il terminale twinax e adesso hanno x3270. Altro non devono
sapere e non devono dire.
-- 
echo onailimissaM | awk 'BEGIN { FS = "" }
{ for (i = NF; i >= 1; i-- )
  printf $i }'; echo

 Debian, 
Vero solo in parte. TUTTE le appliances di sicurezza che ho visto
finora, a partire da CheckPoint, utilizzano Debian.
-- 
Ciao!
Luca

 c'e' altra scelta.
Beh Sophos per il suo PureMessage for Unix (gateway mail enterprise con
scansione antivirus/antispam) supporta ufficialmente RedHat, SUSE Linux,
Debian (3.0 e 3.1) e FreeBSD su x86, Sun Solaris su SPARC. Tra l'altro
la societa' che ha fatto da noi l'installazione ha usato Fedora Core
che, abbiamo scoperto poi parlando con il supporto italiano, non e'
supportata ufficialmente (vedere lista di cui sopra).
Inutile dire che alla prima occasione ci siamo rifatti le installazioni
e configurazioni da soli su Debian (ovviamente non e' stato l'UNICO dei
motivi che ci ha portati a reinstallare da soli il sistema, ma in ogni
caso abbiamo tenuto conto anche di quello).
ciao,
NC

 desktop.
Ma le applicazioni preesistenti giravano in locale, scritte in VB o
simili,
oppure erano applicazioni mainframe accedute con un semplice emulatore
3270?



il firewall velociraptor (ora comprato da symantec) usa una distro basata
su redhat.




oracle, veritas, sun supportano solo redhat e suse. In Sun c'e' stato un
po' di rumore intorno a Ubuntu, ma non so come andra' a finire.
Ma e' una questione pratica e non una questione di quale distro e'
migliore. E' una questione di testing e del fatto che una azienda deve
interfacciarsi con un'altra entita' che non sia astratta come la comunita'
debian. Ad esempio, Sun e redhat hanno stabilito relazioni tra di loro e
collaborano sul testing di alcuni componenti (nss, nspr, jss) e hanno
costruito un team unico, con gente di RH e gente di Sun, talvolta si
incontrano, talvolta lavorano in videoconferenza. Come fai a fare una cosa
del genere con debian, gentoo o freebsd? Chi si assume le responsabilita'?
La gente della comunita' debian non si assume questo tipo di
responsabilita', perche' non pagano i propri dipendenti e non sono quotati
in borsa :) Le aziende di cui sopra, inoltre, certificano le proprie
applicazioni su determinate distribuzioni, non per simpatia, me perche'
hanno eseguito test specifici su quelle distro. E' impensabile che si
possano eseguire test accurati su tutte le distro. Le combinazioni distro,
release della distro e release del software, sarebbero tante e tali che
renderebbero improponibile il testing stesso. Cio' non vuol dire che poi
quella applicazione non girera' su gentoo o debian, ma vuol dire che tu
dovrai eseguire il testing fai-da-te, e che non potrai chiedere supporto.
In un ambiente come la banca ritengo improbabile tutto cio'.
Esempio pratico: tu puoi installare il directory server di Sun su
qualunque distribuzione Linux, senza nessun problema. Funziona o non
funziona qualcosa te la devi vedere tu.
Le versioni di SunDS saranno (boh) poniamo 5. Vogliamo contare quante
distro e quante release di distro esistono?
spariamo a cavolo: 5 fedora, circa 5 gentoo, 4 debian, 4 slack, 3 ubutnu
Abbiamo 21 release/distro di linux e per 5 release DS.
LOL, per ogni patch-release dovresti fare piu' di 100 test :P
Ha senso quello che scrivo?


 > finora, a partire da CheckPoint, utilizzano Debian.
Perdonami la precisazione ma SecurePlatform è una versione modificata
di RedHat 7.2



Mi quoto da solo:
http://www.checkpoint.com/techsupport/documentation/FW-1_VPN-1_performance.html
"The Check Point SecurePlatform product is Check Point version of Linux
based on the Red Hat 7.2 distribution that is specifically adapted
(hardened and tuned) for use with VPN-1 software. Current
SecurePlatform Edition II is based on Linux kernel 2.4.9-31. It is
strongly advised to use Check Point SecurePlatform for Linux-based
VPN-1 installations."

 di RedHat 7.2
alla fine ho capito: dovevi rispondere a Menegotto e non a me :)
E' per caso nel tuo killfile? :)


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