Newsgroup: it.sport.calcio
Titolo: Re: 50 reasons for being better of the Italians (from bild)

 But you have lost.
At least we're not the kind of whining mammoni who had to rely on
questionable media campaigns. Maybe without these dirty tactics the
Italian (Serie A involved) team would have won too, but now their cup
will remain mud-spoiled for ever.
BTW, it's more than just ridiculous to take overly pride in a literal
"last-minute victory."
Our team and people didn't (and isn't going to) lose their dignity.
(Maybe that's a concept you are not able or willing to grab.)
For some people, dignity matters more than victory (a fact which you
might perhaps not understand, for obvious reasons).
It's not our usual state of affairs to regard Italians as oily worms.
But I'm still looking for a more pleasant description for those who
have been crawling through German newsgroups since Tuesday. The recent
bahavior of some Italians doesn't correspond to the Italy we love.

 who had to ...
bla bla bla..
You've played at home, you've lost, you're out.
Raus!

 At least
http://snipurl.com/stsj

 No? All the world has seen your women and your players crying like infants.
Yes, they were saddened in the wake of the last-minute decision, that's
true. But it didn't last long. (And it didn't equal the long-lasting
collective depression in southern countries if their teams lose.)
You don't know what the term "whining mammoni" means (maybe because
it's so usual for you): What people allover the world keep laughing at
was when anxious Italian media chanted: "Mamma FIFA, please to
something about that team!" That's not what men are about - that's
whining, whining mammoni.
Considering the so-called play-acting(*) for penalties against the
opponents, you might perhaps not find something unusual in the behavior
of the bad losers who attacked our team in the aftermath of the quarter
final penalty shoot-out, which resulted in some defensive measures of
our team members. The request of Italian media to punish this will
remain a memorial of shame and infamy!
(If contraction of rules in past games is reason enough to ban players
from Mondial play-off games, why don't you tell the FIFA about Serie A
- it's still time until Sunday?
I guess you won't, so why don't you shaut up and await the final - und
beware of drowning in the cup's mud :)
===
(*) Achim Achilles recently wrote a witty column about Italian
play-acting.

 questionable media campaigns.
The video was available for everyone to see.
One of our newspapers rightly pointed out that one of your players punched 
an opponent for no reason during a fight.
And instead of blaming it on HIM for being a MORON, you blame it on the 
newspaper for pointing it out.
When Totti was disqualified two years ago, for similar reasons, we didn't 
say "damn danish spies, fuck off", we said "Totti, you're a jerk".
And after Fifa disqualified Frings for ONE match, instead of 3 of 4 which 
would have been right, making you the gift of having the possibility to have 
him play the final, you keep on crying, and crying and crying.
And you call the italians "whining mammoni", after losing cleanly on the 
field?
What a sore loser you must be.

 an opponent for no reason 
LOL

 will remain mud-spoiled for ever.
Your words are really painful and of poor taste. It really hurts, I know, 
but if you had a little bit of dignity, you had to admit that you losed the 
match, and congratulate with your opponent.
Jack 

 LOL
Since you just replied to this point, I assume that you agree on every other 
point I've made.
Thanks and good luck against Portugal.
Arriving third isn't that bad, after all.

 collective depression in southern countries if their teams lose.)
Rotfl!
I'm disappointed  because i don't know an english equivalent of the
italian
verb "rosicare": it's perfect to describe your pathetic discussions.
But the most funny thing is that you are not alone. One moron writing
crap
is not a rilevant event. But a newsrotflpaper writing an article that
seems
the reaction of a baby who has lost his ice-cream is the best gift that
your nation could make us.
The fact:
- you makes a lot of bla bla bla "uber alles, we are the best, italian
shit,
we'll destroy you!, pizza arrivederci etc."
- you've loose the match of your life.
- you're still crying.
- we're laughing.
Thank you crauti's eaters.

 play-acting.
Der spiegel admitted his previuos article was a pure insult but you can 
consider him ready for a pulitzer prize. 

 after losing cleanly on the field?
As clean as a last minute following a four day media preparation can
be, you are sooo "right"...

 be, you are sooo "right"...
You're just pathetic.
Every german player accepted this, why can't you?
We're sorry we've broken your toy, but we won fair and square.
Matches end when the ref blows the last whistle, so that's the lamest 
justification you could ever think of.

 Italians...
You are right, I agree, but you know that most of the italians respect your 
national team and your country but you want to complain against the trolls 
who aroused you.
Ok, it is true that also in Italy we have some people who like to humiliate 
opponents, every country has similar people.
I do not know what we can do for you.
I can say I'm sorry for that people.
If Italy lose the final maybe you will find yourself healed with some 
revenge. 

 Arriving third isn't that bad, after all.
I'm afraid, you didn't understand. It's not about the "macho"
best-or-nothing-mentality.
It would have been completely OK, if the team hadn't won against
Argentine - until then everything was OK, but the events following the
game destroyed the joy of a young, hopeful team. The supposed punch
"without reason" was not initiated by the team, in the first place.
I'd love to watch what you would to if a "dirty dozen" of bad losers is
storming, kicking and punching at you and your fellow-players. The
supposed reaction is usually described in legal terms as self-defense,
i.e. "with reason".
The effects of the unnecessary media campaign on the team and the
spriit of a joyful championship, for that matter,  is comparable,
perhaps, to a Palestinean who enjoys watching his growing olive trees
for a long time just to be suddenly confronted with an Isreali merkava
tank which relentlessly crashes all his young olive trees. And on top
of that, some IDF soldiers come along and point to the crashed trees
and grinningly shout: "You are a loser, if you cry about worthless
olive trees which can't even stand a little rumble..."
That's what the dirty, unnecessary media campaign has done, and the
unnecessary behavior of certain "fans" is still doing to the spririt of
the championship. (If you can't find anything wrong in that campaign or
merkava tanks destroying, among others innocent olive tress, for that
matter, then there's really no point...)

 If Italy lose the final
I don't care who will win. If there's action without to much fouls,
it'll be fine.
I even don't care who will be third. But I'll enjoy the minutes
following that game.

 wane away.
You seem to blame only the italians.
Try to take a look also to your people.
I do not know what is happening in the most bigger germans cities, however 
if you are trying to arrive to the point that because Italy reached the 
final now things are going on the worst side I can laugh at you and at your 
ridiculous statement.
Since june 9th everything was nice, then Germany lost the semifinal, 
italians become all rogues and people from any countries is having a bad 
life.
I hope I misunderstood you. 

 Normal people accept their losses without pointing fingers at those who win.
These are the words of someone who can't tell the difference between
attack and defense. You are obviously stuck to the win-loss-dimension -
that's macho-like thinking.
I feel disgusted since last weekend when the campaign started. I keep
telling about this in several newsgroup since then. That alone could be
proof enough MY point has nothing to with the result of the game.
Until then it was merely about media. But now that we have to face a
ridiculous "mob" (which does, by the way, mean something different in
American English) of intrusive peacocks who, like drugged midgets, are
marching around, denying any quesitionable cirumstances during their
own past matches pror to the quarter final (penalties etc.) and
claiming a lot of non-sense. If the "victory" was really sooo sure
prior to the game, why did it take them two hours. Oh, wait, I can see
your next argument: probably they merely wanted to deliver an
interesting performance for the longest possible time span...
And now everybody who expresses dislike of the unnecessary "pollution"
is called a "bad loser" and is asked to behave "normal". That's merely
part of the sad story.
Even if you still don't get it: I couldn't care less who will be the
championship.
That's something I've in common with the majority of of 90 % percent of
the population, who are not disappointed that their team didn't reach
the final.
This championship had more to it for this country than just the soccer
games alone. Therefore, the results are even less important to many of
us. But some disturbing (and disturbed) acitivities of others are
perceived as dirty and infamous. It doesn't matter if those who commit
these acts are not capable to recognize the character of their
wrong-doings.
And, as always in matters as these, there's the dilemma that those who
are thrown at with mud are accused of "being unfair" as soon as they
express their dislike. (This inversion of cause and effect is merely a
cognitive phenomenon which originates in moral maldevelopment.) And so
it comes as no surprise that those who are unable or unwilling to
recognize what really happened after the shoot-out are in the same way
accusing others as supposedly "bad losers".
Maybe you don't get it: the longer you are trying to deny the truth,
the longer I could claim "I win more and more" - but that's not my
point. Some people here are just sad because  some muddy worms are
trying to destroy the joy we have been having in during championship.
I think we were surpsingly tolerant hosts - and there's no real reason
to be thrown at with dirt by some underclass peacocks. Although it's
nearly an unwritten law in Germany that in any mixed-ethnic
confrontation, the Germans are always to be declared guilty (because of
so-called historical guilt), I insist in the truth - and wherever there
is shit(*), I'll keep calling it as such - if the shit likes it or not
:)
(*) (just to descend to the verbal capabilitis of those who try to
disturb our peace.)

 Our team and people didn't (and isn't going to) lose their dignity.
That's friggin hilarious. XD
-- 
http://www.numerozero.com/

 remain a memorial of shame and infamy!
The only thing that'll remain is that hitchy feeling in your sorry 
german assess, a collective pain of a bunch of arrogant morons who 
failed miserably.
-- 
http://www.numerozero.com/

 American English) of intrusive peacocks who,
I don't really care about them.
And neither should you.

 But the most funny thing is that you are not alone.
you should know. testis are never alone.
M.

 Matches end when the ref blows the last whistle
Really? What about the quarter final. Why had some people the urgent
need then to warm up the recation to an Argentinean attack after the
ref left the stadium?
It's not true that there was no media pressure on the FIFA:
The accusation of German players first came up during the Saturday DFB
press conference.
But even on Sunday, the FIFA media director still declared there were
punishments against Argentinean players, but NO further investigations
into German players.
On Sunday evening they suddenly declared that new "material" had been
brought to their attention by the media.
While repeatedly postponing a decesion until Monday evening, they
restated their position again in claiming that there hadn't been media
involvement at all, which is ridicilous, considering their former
statements - such declarations are called "politics."
To make things worse, immediately after the match, FIFA president told
the media, that relying on external media isn't the best way to dicide
on guilt of individual players. He promised to change this in the
future...
(Being confronted with so-called "moralistic" arguments about dirty
circumstances may feel for anyone lacking morality as unpleasant as
having to witness clean spirit of the games poised by infamy may feel
for those who don't lack it. That's life).
Maybe for some reason you can't finally understand: this affair is NOT
about the result of the match - it's about the the muddy pool
surrounding the stadium, so-to-speak. It's a fact which can't be erased
from history.
Try to imagine: Same result of the match without the media terror - it
could have been fine for everyone involved. But being called a bad
loser for being honest by some people posing in a manner which I'd call
"chuzpe" (interesingly we don't have a literal translation which could
cover the whole meaning of that term), will leave some disgusting
flavour to the personal memory of these games.
Nevertheless, I don't feel bad about the final itself.

 I hope I misunderstood you.
You didn't John.
I've been living in Berlin since 4 years. I'm italian and i really
enjoyed my days here.
I was strolling around nighttime after the match Germany - Argentina.
More precisely, Torstraße corner Schonhauserallee.
I met a german fellow, 40 years old on the sidewalk. We started arguing
about football.
Then he stroke me with this sentence - literally:
"I wished Germany had lost the match"
And i said: "Why?"
"The germans have to show their real face, to drop the mask. It's
hypocrite, we aren't the perfect Gastgeber (Host). You will see..."
So...even if i read italian newspapers no chance to read such a bunch
of clicheés as the Bild and the Spiegel wrote. There was in those
articles no trace of paradox, irony, lightness.
It was meant to be true and representative of a wide spreaded audience
among German people.
I'm expreriencing dumb talks even at my office.
neurino

 I read two newspaper per day and I did not see this news
It was the "evil" SPEGEL again, who delived the news:
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,425383,00.html
Although I can read some Romanic languages (and like listening to them)
I'm unfortunately unable to translate the news article into Italian in
a meaningful sense, but in its essential message equals what I wrote
about 35+ year old "children" and what the government is planning to to
about them.
And the SPIEGEL, once more, was caught in the act of spreading cultural
stereotypes, but this time empirically based on polls regarding
desires/motivations during vacation:
They boldy claim that Germans (beside people from Spain and France)
were longing for romance during vacations, while Italians were seeking
"hot affairs" during their vacations:
http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/0,1518,425452,00.html
Let's see how long it takes this time to bring SPIEGEL to justice ;)
Or, if stereotypes contain an ever-so-small core of truth, nobody will
feel injured this time... Just kidding: a possible reply could be: "Hot
affairs - what else could vacation be about!"
Like it or not, there are cultural differences and misunderstandings,
which is especially important if two nations share the same words, but
have different customs, values, rules and, therefore, meanings for
these same words. There were some writers (as, for instance, novelist,
language critic and supposed MI5 informer Gerorge Orwell or
psychologist Paul Watzlawick) who enterainingly illustrated the
misunderstandings between US Army boys and British girls, which arose
from their different cultural customs. And the respective stereotypes
in Britain and the US  about "Brits" and "Yanks" exceed the real
differences and, regarding the degree of "acidity" the column of Achim
Achilles about Italian soccer boys :)
But sometimes fundamtental differences exist mainly in the imagination
of columnists and a believing minority of the population. An example of
these very questionable dichotomizations are American newspaper
articles about supposed differences during the championhip: there are
articles which claim that, while people in Western Germany would wave
theri flags merely for joy, Eastern Germans would wave the flag in a
longing for the rebirth of Adolf Hitler... I didn't encounter anyone
longing for that during the championship.
(Besides, those who might wish the rebirth of past dictators wouldn't
ever wave the Black-Red-Gold, but their Black-White-Red flag...)

 about them.
And, of course, these statements concern football as much as i'm
concerned with eternal life.
neurino

 hypocrite, we aren't the perfect Gastgeber (Host). You will see..."
Yeah, that's the old spirit of self-denial. Those libeling lefties
don't miss any opportunity to sell their distorted expectatations und
attitudes to anyone who will listen and intensify the fairy tales.
As was to be expected, the usual media warfare against the "evil
German" will be continued as soon as the final ceremonials are over...
That's the gratitude for being hosts. So what, we knew that, maybe
that's why we felt some joy while the media hammering on German heads
temporarily stopped during the games.
So let's summarize: Hello world, we evil Germans owe you so much thank
for letting us breath for one month without being harrassed by the
usual media defamation. Of course, our joy to have you here, can only
have been very phony, because, as some of our most stupid and
ideologically blinded fellow-Germans can confirm anytime, we are so
evil, and are even more evil by weighing you in the false security of
being welcome.
Although there's no single one police report which could substantiate
any statictically significant number of incidences (in comparison to
other events where masses of people and alcohol are involved), you may
rest assured that the wisdom our crazy "Better-citizens" (Gutmenschen)
feel honored to share with you, of course, are worthier than anthing
reality could teach you.
Because of our historical guilt we feel obliged to impersonate the
Nazi-fantasies you love to  maintain about us. And, of course, we know
it would be to distressful for the world to face the reality. That's
why...
... on Monday 5:45 there will be business as usual.
Zu Befehl,
your Fritz

 match, and congratulate with your opponent.
Congratulations to a nation of such great sons:
http://www.comune.torino.it/infogio/rivista/archivio/02_01/casa06.jpg

 congratulate with your opponent.
Congratulations to a very happy last minute :)

 match, and congratulate with your opponent.
Congratulations to a very lucky last minute

 longing for that during the championship.
I got your point but the matter does not change.
Everytime who overgeneralize, making a caricature to describe a country or a 
culture, made a mistake.
It can be satirically written but the author can be exposed to criticism.
In this case even your Spiegel admitted they exaggerate.
Regarding the semi-final with Italy it is clear from other your articles on 
this thread that you are accusing Italy because of the further investigation 
on your player Frings.
We have been accused in the past to whine for much less.
We have been accused even when a Danish media sent a tape to FIFA after a 
match played with Denmark; please not, I said after and not before.
We have been accused of complaining to much against the referee of Kore - 
Italy in the 2002, after we lost on the extra time but you know about his 
wonderful career after that match ?
Take a look 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_moreno
So, if you protest, then it is justified in some way, if we do that, then it 
is whining mammoni. 

 
http://www.comune.torino.it/infogio/rivista/archivio/02_01/casa06.jpg
I married my wife when I was 23. Since that I live in my own home. I am now 
31 and my son is 6 years old. You just know talking about prejudices with so 
poor arguments.
J.

 Spiegel apologied and that's more than enough for me.
They have a history of spreading stereotypes:
http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2006/06_Giugno/28/spieg--140x180.jpg

 You just know talking about prejudices with so poor arguments.
Really? As the article stated, there are 66 % of the upto 35 years
Italians old are still living at home, as opposed to numbers between 10
and 20 % in other European countries.
("Zwei Drittel der jungen Leute unter 35 Jahren wohnen noch bei den
Eltern. Vor allem viele Söhne hält es im Hotel Mama.")
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,425383,00.html

 You just know talking about prejudices with so poor arguments.
Really? As the article stated, there are 66 % of the upto 35 years
Italians old are still living at home, as opposed to numbers between 10
and 20 % in other European countries.
This is really amazing. Where I live the situations is quiet different. 
Italy is a big country with many different socials and economic situations. 
It makes a big difference how and where you do a poll.
J. 

 German" will be continued as soon as the final ceremonials are over...
Hey, man, you are really taking it too hard and too fast.
On Italian media noone depicted germans either nazis neither
whatsoever. Believe me.
I simply pointed out that in the german expectations, being hosts was
equivalent to get to the big final and win the cup.
I had the impression, that the fact of feeling again a "united land
under a flag", that flagging around proudly your citizenship had to be
automatically rewarded by the cup.
I'm happy that Germans don't have to feel ashamed anymore by history
(and unfortunately you can't appreciate deeply the meaning of my words,
since you don't know me), this WM worked out in some sense these bad
memories. And this is wonderful!
But as far as i've heard, this issue arose only thanks to Germans.
Noone linked your past to the present.
In my humble opinion, the social reconciliation (Versohnung) with the
past has nothing to do with football.
You should be the first to state this clear, and not to mix all up.
Regards.
neurino

 Congratulations to a very lucky last minute
oh boy, Norman, what we can say to make you happy ?
Give you back the final against France ?
Ok, Italy has been lucky to score against your team.
Germany were lucky to win on the PK on the quarter final with Argentina.
Got the point ?
Explain me why you deserved to win against Argentina on penalties kick and 
we are lucky if we scored one minute before the end of the extra time.
When in 2002 Korea scored in the extra time, with the golden goal, three 
minutes before the PK, with Italy with one man less on the field a lot of 
people blamed the italians because of their complains explaining that we 
lost on the field.
The same is for your team.
Accept it.
We have been eliminated on penalties kick on 1990 (semi final), 1994 
(final!) and 1998 (quarter final).
So it can also happen we win on extra time.
Boy...if we lose that's ok, it is soccer and we have to accept it, but if we 
win, than it is just because of luck.
Give it a rest, please. 

 bahavior of some Italians doesn't correspond to the Italy we love.
Go and read your 1 week-ago national newspapers and you'll undestand
why.
Now pls RAUS!

 Noone linked your past to the present.
Huh?  Have you been in this newsgroup the last three days? It seems to
be some kind of odd reflex in some Italians to immediately hurl a
"Nazista", "Sieg Heil", "Adolf Hitler" etc.pp. against every German if
they only suspect that some other German could have hurt their delicate
feelings, like an Italian variety of the Tourette-syndrome. My
favourite pet example is monkey boy, a very inventive and original
Troll:
http://www.numerozero.com/news/328/trollaren-in-teteschia
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/225/frings0xa.jpg
See, Neurino, that becomes somewhat boring now. And please don't come
up with the sorry excuse that the Germans have started this by calling
you Mammoni and parasites. I've told the story before, I even have been
called "Nazista" at my father's funeral (!) a few years ago by a cousin
from Naples who obviously thought that terribly funny. So tell me, what
do these people get out of it? Do they really need this to boost their
self-esteem? Is there really nothing else they can draw on? Or is it
simply the world-famous "umorismo italiano"? And, nota bene: I'm not
only talking about arbitrary usenet trolls here.
Best, klexi

 maybe eating a good italian pizza)
Our cities are reeking of cheap pizza at every corner  - I don't need
this in my house.
You don't tell us what to watch or eat, peacock!
For me, travelling  through Scandinavia again is a nice thing to look
forward to.

 You don't tell us what to watch or eat, peacock!
Ok. Now back to your homeworks idiot (3).

 
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/225/frings0xa.jpg
As first thing sorry to the heavy cut to your nice article.
I agree with most of your statements, however one thing is not clear to me.
You blame the italians trolls who flooded this NG pointing out that many of 
the messages were not sarcastic (like we won, you lose, pizza go home and so 
on...) but an insult (Hitler and all the usual stuff).
It is true. I'm on your side on this.
When some of the italians reading here tried to justify not the trolling 
against innocent germans but the reaction due to the rubbish german press, 
many of you correctly replied "write to the newspapers involved, it is not 
our fault, we also hate that kind of articles".
Ok, so as it is true that the Bild and Spiegel cannot represent your press 
and german people you cannot simply put a couple of links about italian 
trolls and call it "umorismo italiano".
It seems to me that you justify with arguments your side but you are trying 
to give all the responsability of the changed moodiness in your country to 
fifty morphing trolls who flooded here.
Few persons do not represent Italy like your junk press does not represent 
you. 

 you.
The thing is: I just cannot perceive a changed mood here. There has
been a fair share of disappointment and sorrow after our defeat. Sure.
That's normal, and there have been no riots, no brawl, no violence of
any kind, so really nothing nasty. Most Germans are over it right now
and look forward to the next matches.
In the meanwhile, stupid media like "Bild" try to lift our spirits with
this famous article "Why we are better than the Italians" and the like.
"Die Zeit" writes a satire called "Mafia im Finale", the title of which
(and obviously nothing else) is read by an Italian journalist. Then
Italian media seem to be obsessed with portraying the Germans as bad
losers, picking on every tiny little bit of press coverage that could
be interpreted in an offensive way, sometimes even if it's not at all,
like the "Zeit"-article. And then, besides the flood of stupid trolls
come some sensible people here and ask me why Germans hate Italians.
What should I say? They just don't.

 funny. So, what I really would like to find out: do [those] Italians really


What should I say? They just don't.
I know, it is true.
Like italians do not hate germans.
Not because trolls are telling you a different story with their not 
acceptable behaviour.
Good luck and try to forgive the worst part of our nature. 

 Good luck and try to forgive the worst part of our nature.
Good luck and likewise!
P.S.: Maybe I only got  *that* upset because this upheaval here stirred
unpleasant memories of this insult at my father's open grave ...