Newsgroup: it.arti.musica.classica
Titolo: diapason!

Noto spesso che nella musica antica e barocca l'intonazione è spesso
spostata di molto rispetto al LA attuale (440hz). Questa differenza di
diapason arriva a volte a superare anche il mezzo tono. C'è qualcuno che mi
sa dare maggiori informazioni di come si sono "evoluti" gli standard di
intonazione? E, per prendere un caso specifico, ad esempio in un concerto di
Telemann, supponiamo quello in re per tromba, la versione più
"filologicamente corretta" quale sarebbe (dato che nelle varie versioni che
ho sentito, alcuni arrivano a farlo nell'attuale Re bemolle, altri non
sgarrano di un cent dall'intonazione attuale)?
Grazie!
daniele

 intonazione? 
A parte le considerazione "teoriche" e storiche che sicuramente verranno 
scritte, a volte l'impressione e' che ci si adeguasse all'intonazione 
degli strumenti disponibili e non "accordabili".
Una cosa del genere e' stata in grado di "creare" nuovi strumenti 
musicali dedicati a particolari repertori di musica "popolare".
Per quanto riguarda la musica "colta" mi sovviene una cosa scritta da 
Michel Corrette riguardo all'intonazione dell'orchestra dell'Operà di 
Parigi durante il 18esimo secolo, che si basava sui flauti.
Bene, alcuni dei flauti dell'Operà sopravvissuti hanno un La di poco 
superiore ai 390 hz....
Inviato da 
www.mynewsgate.net

 intonazione?
A questo punto mi piacerebbe sapere quali sono stati i motivi che hanno
portato a questa evoluzione.
-- 
           Bye
 *^Massimiliano^*
-- 
"Non chiediamo di essere immortali. Chiediamo soltanto che le cose non
perdano tutto il loro significato."
Antoine de Saint-Exupèry


Marcello B. ha gia' spiegato il motivo.  L'intonazione si faceva in base
agli strumenti a disposizione che non potevano spostarsi piu' di tanto, come
i flauti, gli organi, clavicembali, ecc.
Tutta via non e' vero (come in genere si pensa) che tutta la musica barocca
veniva eseguita con un LA piu' callante di quello attuale perche' ci sono
dati di esecuzioni di Vivaldi ed altri compositori eseguite con un La
adirittura piu alto del solito 440 anche se purtroppo non ci sono
registrazioni :)
E comunque non sarebbe per niente strano pensare che all'epoca si facevano
concerti con strumenti che avevano un La diverso gia' che trovare a tutto un
gruppo di musicisti con lo stesso La forse non era una cosa banalissima.
Ciao
V.

 sgarrano di un cent dall'intonazione attuale)?
non c'č mai stato un diapason costante.
Sappiamo dei diapason antichi grazie agli organi (ovviamente il diapason di
un organo non si modifica), e ai diapason (sto parlando dell'*oggetto*
diapason, in questo caso).
Cosě, verso la metŕ del settecento, a Venezia ci si attestava sui 443, in
varie parti della Germania sui 415 a scalare in giů, eccetera.
Ti spostavi, e il diapason cambiava.
(gli organi bachiani a Lipsia e Weimar hanno il la a 480, ad esempio)
Per cui, per essere filologicamente corretti, bisognerebbe capire in che
anno č stato scritto il concerto e che diapason si utilizzava nel luogo dove
č stato eseguito. Ma nemmeno serve tanto, poi...
Ad esempio, il cammerton dell'epoca di Quantz, in Germania, č equivalente a
416
In Francia il diapason č sempre stato piů basso (404 o giů di lě).
In poche parole: nel settecento, il la variava da 400 a 450.
In sostanza: un macello....
Di solito, per il periodo classico, si usa  il 430, per quello barocco il
415, ma dipende.
Spesso Vivaldi č eseguito a 440.
(parlo di esecuzioni "filologiche")
Z.

 Spesso Vivaldi č eseguito a 440.
Quando sono soli archi perň, o sbaglio?
Non credo che i fiati fossero accordati a 440.
-- 
           Bye
 *^Massimiliano^*
-- 
"Non chiediamo di essere immortali. Chiediamo soltanto che le cose non
perdano tutto il loro significato."
Antoine de Saint-Exupčry

 Non credo che i fiati fossero accordati a 440.
stavo parlando di ciò che tradizionalmente i gruppi di strumenti antichi
fanno.
E' vero che con i fiati c'è un problema a suonare a 440.
Se sono copie di antichi.
(cielo, c'è anche la possibilità di costruire qualsiasi diavoleria, eh.)
Cosa usassero all'epoca, ribadisco, non è chiarissimo.
Z.

 diapason, in questo caso).
...
Io credo perň che anche gli organi tendano a calare di intonazione con il
tempo. Anche di un semitono.
Alessio

 tempo. Anche di un semitono.
credo anch'io, anche se non so esattamente come funzioni.
Sta di fatto che effettivamente i diapason (parlo sempre dell'oggetto) sono
piů attendibili.
Z.

 Z.
Sicuramente la "forchetta" è molto più attendibile anche se ossidandosi può
cambiare di qualche Hz.
A proposito dell'organo ti porto un esempio: nella chiesa dove vado io
l'organo è stato costruito nel 1971. Ad oggi,quindi a poco più di 30 anni,
non essendo mai stato accordato, è già calante di circa un quarto di tono.
Non so se può calare ancora ma ricordo quando lo costruirono che era
accordato a 440.
Ciao
A.

 tempo. Anche di un semitono.
In alcuni rari casi invece diventano crescenti...ad esempio quando 
restauratori poco "accorti" decidono di "ben temperarli" nell'unico modo 
possibile per mantenere le canne originali, ovvero accorciandole!
Inviato da 
www.mynewsgate.net

 tempo. Anche di un semitono.
Un organo è fatto di legno e metallo, perciò "patisce" sbalzi di temperatura
e di umidità.
Gli organi da chiesa cambiano anche di mezzotono in base al riscaldamento,
acceso/spento, ed al tempo esterno...
Inoltre mantenerli "in forma"  costa denaro e competenza e non è detto che
il "responsabile della manutenzione" possa rivolgersi abbastanza
frequentemente ad esperti con buona tecnica :-(
ciao
LN

 superiore ai 390 hz....
Vatti a fidare degli strumenti in legno ;-P
ciao
LN

 accordato a 440.
Non credo che sia 'tutto' calante allo stesso modo. I vari registri sono di
materiale diverso e calano (crescono) in modo diverso secondo le condizioni
ambientali.
Se dal 1971 non l'hanno mai accordato credo che sia insuonabile :-(
Ciao,
K.

 frequentemente ad esperti con buona tecnica :-(
ma se l'organo è sempre stato mantenuto in buono stato?
è attendibile?
Z.

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:6YQMb.247529$vO5.10...@twister1.libero.it...
a proposito.
Ho trovato questo riguardo al diapason, mi sembra interessante.
Riguarda solo l'Italia, perň
i) Italy.
Mezzo punto and tutto punto were the names of pitch standards associated
with the cornett, violin and organ in northern Italy from about 1580 to the
end of the 17th century. Mezzo punto, clearly the more common level, was at
a' ? 464 (A+1), tutto punto was at a' ? 440 (A+0). Church choirs of the
period usually performed at A-1, a pitch known as tuono corista. Certain
soft-voiced instruments such as transverse flutes and mute cornetts were
also associated with this pitch. Organs were most often tuned at mezzo punto
for playing with instruments, and organists transposed down a major 2nd when
accompanying singers. Because temperaments and fingering technique made
semitone transpositions impractical, wind players may have owned several
instruments pitched in consecutive semitones, allowing whole-tone
transpositions in various combinations to produce any required scale.
String players probably tuned up or down in order to play in reasonable
keys. Most string instruments made in Cremona were probably designed to be
played at mezzo punto or tutto punto. Antonio Barcotto (1652) wrote: 'Organs
that are high work well with lower voices and violins, which are for this
reason more spirited. The lower-pitched organs . do not work as well with
violins as the high organs'. The gut strings used on the larger sizes of
violin could probably have been tuned at least as high as A+1; smaller
violins (which were especially popular in the 17th century) could go a
semitone higher. Instrumental music was thus performed at A+1 or, less
commonly, A+0; music involving choirs was at A-1 or, less commonly, at A+0.
By the 18th century, mezzo punto at A+1 was generally being called corista
di Lombardia; it was the normal pitch of church organs in Venice until about
1740, when the organ maker Pietro Nachini began using A+0 (tutto punto),
which then became known as corista Veneto. Although A-1 was used in Venetian
opera in the early part of the century, it was A+0, apparently regarded as a
compromise, that was to remain the principal pitch in Venice throughout the
century, and which was adopted as the standard instrumental pitch, firstly
in Vienna, and then all over Europe by the end of the 18th century. San
Petronio in Bologna, which had been at mezzo punto since 1531, moved down to
corista Veneto in 1708. Thus, the 20th-century pitch standard of a' = 440
may ultimately be descended from corista Veneto.
Tuono corista at A-1 still had currency in northern Italy during the 18th
century; surviving Italian woodwinds were made at this level (as well as
A+0). J.M. Anciuti and Carlo Palanca, who were among the important makers,
made flutes with alternate joints at both levels, as well as individual
recorders at each. Naples and Florence were generally associated with a
pitch at A-1 during much of the 18th century.
In Rome, organs were generally at A-1 in Palestrina's time. But about 1600,
evidently for the sake of the new castratos, church organs were lowered to
A-2 (about a' = 384). One source called this pitch corista di S Pietro. Some
Roman organs stayed at this level until late in the 19th century. Evidently,
strings also played at this low pitch. Hautboy parts written by Handel and
Antonio Caldara in Rome are notated a major 2nd lower than those for the
rest of the orchestra, indicating that the hautboys involved were pitched a
major 2nd higher. The principal hautboist for most or all these pieces was
Ignazio Rion, who had come from Venice (where he had taught at the Ospedale
della Pietŕ along with Vivaldi). Rion was evidently playing an hautboy at
corista Veneto, while the other instruments (led by Arcangelo Corelli) were
at A-2.

 Riguarda solo l'Italia, perň
-cut-
Questo post e' da salvare.
Grazie :)
V.

 Grazie :)
prego
allora aggiungo la parte sulla Germania e quella su J.S. Bach
eh eh eh
(iii) Germany.
The detailed pitch information in Praetorius's De organographia of 1618 is
pivotal, looking back on the practices of the end of the 16th century and
forward to the situation of German musicians confronted with the arrival of
the new French orchestral instruments in the later 17th. But (although
Praetorius was not confused) his terminology is confusing. He called his
reference pitch CammerThon (which he used to mean 'secular instrumental
pitch' at A+1), but its frequency was quite different from that of 18th-
century Cammerton. Praetorius used ChorThon to mean 'church organ pitch'.
Earlier this pitch had been a tone lower than his CammerThon, thus A-1, and
in certain places, he said, it still was. But ChorThon was in process of
changing in Praetorius's day. He explained that organs had gradually risen
in pitch 'about a tone' until they too were at CammerThon. This is why
Praetorius was inconsistent in his meaning of the term ChorThon, sometimes
equating it to CammerThon and sometimes making it a major 2nd below it.
(Fortunately, he reserved CammerThon as his unmoving reference, although he
gave it other names as well, like rechte Thon and Cornettenthon.) Praetorius
described with approval the situation in Prague:
Normal modern pitch, to which nearly all of our organs are now tuned, is
there called CammerThon . ChorThon, however, which is a whole tone lower, is
used only in the churches, primarily for the sake of the singers . as it
allows their voices to bear up longer, and saves them from becoming husky
from working at high pitch.
Evidence from the Habsburg lands confirms his description, ChorThon being
the usual term for a pitch a 2nd below A+1 (Zinck-Thon or Cornet-Ton) until
at least the time of Janowka (Prague, 1701; see §I, 2(v) below). Praetorius
also appears to have been describing a corollary to the system used in
northern Italy, in which the organist transposed down a whole step (to tuono
corista or A-1) from a high instrumental pitch (A+1) for the sake of the
singers. The parallel is underlined by Praetorius's use of the phrase
'Chöristen- oder ChorThon'.
Another aspect of Praetorius's pitch information that has led to confusion
is his scale diagram of a set of organ pipes, or Pfeifflin zur Chormass,
whose principal purpose, he explained, was to indicate the pitch level of
his CammerThon. This diagram has been the subject of considerable debate,
but it is now generally agreed that it, like other indications (including
extant original wind instruments of the period), shows a level at A+1
(Myers, A1997, and Koster, D forthcoming). Praetorius's CammerThon was thus
parallel to the most common pitch in Italy at the same time, mezzo punto.
In the latter part of the 17th century developments in France inspired a
revolution in the instrumentarium in Germany. The new designs of woodwinds
were tuned a tone or more below most German organs. For various practical
reasons, neither the organs nor the woodwinds could adapt to each other's
pitch for a period of several generations. As secular instrumental music
gradually came to dominate music making, however, so did its pitch. Thus
Praetorius's CammerThon effectively swapped its meaning with that of Chorton
(which continued to mean 'church organ pitch'). Jakob Adlung in 1768
referred to this confusion, writing that 'organs are tuned to Chorton, as it
is now called, which is 1 or 1½ tones higher than Cammerton. Formerly it was
the reverse, and Cammerton was higher than Chorton; organs were tuned to
what was then called Cammerton'. Thus the approximate frequencies of
established German pitch standards (A+1 and A-1) were not altered by the
musical revolution caused by the arrival of French orchestral instruments,
but their names were interchanged.
In the new configuration, transposition became necessary when organs played
with other instruments. Vocal parts could be notated at either standard. In
some cases, it was simpler (as for Bach at Weimar) to notate the voices with
the organ, since the strings were still tuned high. As time went on, it
became more common to write voice and string parts at the new low Cammerton
(as Bach did at Leipzig), leaving only the organ and the brass (the latter
representing a stronghold of tradition) at Chorton.
The older instruments in the German 17th-century tradition did not vanish
immediately. The chorist-Fagott or deutsche Fagott (i.e. the curtal) long
continued its traditional role in providing discrete accompaniment to
choirs, and traditional shawms were played well into the 18th century. These
instruments were pitched at Praetorius's old high CammerThon at A+1. But
since the word Cammerton was now associated with a low pitch, 'deutsche'
(e.g. deutsche Schalmey) gradually developed a secondary connotation as an
indication of instruments at high pitch. Just as the term 'French' before an
instrument's name (französische Schalmei), or the use of the French name
itself (Hautbois) was a sign of an instrument in Cammerton, the word
'deutsche' was used to indicate an instrument at A+1 (see Shawm, §4).
We are fortunate in having the original frequencies of at least 36 German
organs whose pitch standard was also identified by name:
There are 13 examples of Cornet-Ton within a narrow and specific range,
averaging a' = 463. This level agrees well with the pitch of surviving
cornetts.
There are 11 examples of Chorton, as high as a' = 487 and as low as a' = 437
(i.e. A+0, A+1, A+2). They average, however, a' = 467.
There are two examples of Chormass at a' = 489 and a' = 466. (Chormass is a
term frequently encountered in the 17th century and less in the 18th; it was
evidently synonymous with Chorton).
Cammerton (ten examples) is also consistent and averages a' = 416. This
level compares well with woodwind pitch between 1680 and 1770.
From this it can be seen that Chorton in the 18th century could have been
any pitch from A+0 to A+2. 18th-century Cornet-Ton, by contrast, was
relatively specific and consistent in frequency. Cornetts were commonly used
as a reference for pitch frequency in Italy, Germany and the Habsburg lands.
Cornetts made in Germany in the 16th and 17th centuries range in pitch from
a' = 450 to a' = 480, but most are close to a' = 465.
Praetorius used CammerThon and Cornettenthon synonymously in the early 17th
century. But while the names CammerThon and ChorThon traded places between
the 17th and 18th centuries, Cornet-Ton (Cornettenthon) remained at the same
level, since cornetts did not change in pitch from the 16th to the 18th
centuries. Cornet-Ton, then, was equivalent to the early 17th-century
CammerThon, but by the 18th century it had become a specific kind of
Chorton.
The words Cornet-Ton and Chorton sounded so similar, and the concepts they
denoted overlapped so closely, that it would be surprising if they had not
sometimes been confused. Chorton was variously described as different from,
lower than, and equal to Cornet-ton. Because Chorton was a general concept
rather than a specific frequency, there are a number of references to a
'gewöhnlichen (ordinairen) Chortone' and 'hohe Chortone'. The 'gewöhnlichen'
was a whole-tone above Cammerton (which was A-1). Hohe Chorton was found in
the extreme north of Germany: Buxtehude's organ at the Marienkirche, Lübeck,
was in hoch-Chorton and pitched at A+2. About a third of the surviving
organs by Arp Schnitger are at A+2 (the others are at A+1). Organs at A+2
were used to accompany congregational singing in churches that did not use
other instruments.
There were those who preferred the sound of organs at Chorton (in its
general sense) over Cammerton. But the most important reason for making
high-pitched organs was the expense: a lower pitch required extra pipes at
the bottom of each stop, and being the longest pipes they used the most tin.
The new organ built in Bach's Thomaskirche in Leipzig in 1773 was still at
Chorton. By the beginning of the 19th century most organs were built in
Kammerton (as it was then usually called), although in Saxony in the early
19th century an organ pitch of A+1 was still common.
Cammerton was associated with secular music; in the 18th century it was the
usual pitch of instruments other than the organ and brass. Eventually many
organs adopted Cammerton, which was more convenient when playing with other
instruments. As noted above, nine 18th-century German organs at Cammerton
survive, all at A-1 (which we can assume represented its normal frequency).
There were other, lower species of Cammerton: the family of tief-Cammertons,
including Opera-Ton and französischer Thon. These levels were all
approximately a minor 3rd below A+1 and are thus difficult to keep distinct.
The existence of ton de la chambre in France at A-1½ was probably the root
cause of the confusion, since this frequency fell between the levels at A-1
and A-2 that were transposable on most German organ keyboards. The Cammerton
levels at A-2 and A-1½, being common French pitches, probably came in when
the first French woodwinds arrived in the 1680s. But A-1 must also have been
current by the 1690s, as a stop in the Jacobikirche organ, Hamburg
(Schnitger, 1693), was at a' = 408, a minor 3rd below the rest of the organ
at a' = 489.
Praetorius documented the use of a pitch a minor 3rd below his CammerThon
(at A+1) that was used, he said, 'a great deal in different Catholic chapels
in Germany'. So the level at A-2 was not a complete innovation in Germany
with the arrival of French instruments. Indications for tief-Cammerton in
wind parts disappear after the mid-1720s, though German woodwinds were still
made at A-2 until at least 1770.
The parts and occasionally the scores to German music of the early 18th
century (such as works for organ and other instruments) that involved the
simultaneous use of two and sometimes three different pitch standards were
normally notated in different keys. In transposing, composers were obliged
to consider a number of interrelated practical factors: the technical
effects on different kinds of performers, changes of sonority, key and its
relation to affect, and temperament. The effect of transposition on voices
was a primary consideration. The tone qualities of the different vocal
registers were consciously distinguished until the Classical period, and
breaks from chest to head voice, which generally occur at specific
frequencies, were avoided. Register placement is obviously shifted by
transposition. Transposition could also turn a high tenor part into one for
falsettist (countertenor) by changing its range.
Although string instruments were also sensitive to changes of pitch and key,
some or all the individual strings were regularly retuned as much as a whole
step up and down in the 18th century; examples are found in works by Biber,
Kuhnau, Bach and Mozart. Many string instruments then in use had been made
in an earlier period when standard instrumental pitch was A+1; they were
often tuned up to Cornet-ton in the early 18th century.
When parts were not in the appropriate key, organists were expected to
transpose at sight. Woodwinds were less flexible. Their fingering system
limited them to keys with no more than four sharps or flats, and each
tonality had an associated character, technique and intonation. Some
woodwinds like the traverso and hautbois d'amour were specialists in sharp
keys, while others like the recorder and bassoon tended towards flats.
Temperament was a consideration for the fixed-pitch instruments such as
keyboards and lute; melody instruments made ad hoc tuning adjustments as
needed. Transpositions of a semitone were impractical in meantone, but when
the intervals involved were the major 2nd and minor 3rd, and a so-called
'regular' meantone was used (i.e. one in which all the 5ths but one were
tuned the same), intervals were virtually identical in standard tonalities.
(iv) J.S. Bach.
Throughout his career, Bach worked with instruments at Cornet-ton (A+1) and
various levels of Cammerton, although his method of notating their parts was
different in each of the places he worked. The most complex situation was at
Weimar. The organ in the court chapel where Bach was Konzertmeister was
documented as in 'Cornet Thon'. During the first year he wrote cantatas,
Bach wrote parts for a single 'Oboe' notated a major 2nd above the other
parts (organ, voices and strings). The strings must therefore have been
tuned up to Cornet-ton, and the 'Oboe' must have sounded a tone below the
organ (and therefore at the higher level of Cammerton, A-1). But the 'Oboe'
disappeared at the end of 1714, to be replaced by an instrument Bach
consistently called an 'Hautbois', whose parts now differed a minor 3rd from
the organ and strings. From this time, Bach also notated certain other
instruments at the interval of a minor 3rd, like the 'Basson' and 'Flaut'
(recorder). Since the organ stayed at A+1, these instruments must have been
at tief-Cammerton, or A-2. All the remaining works written for the Weimar
chapel show this relationship.
The parts to Bach's music written at Cöthen, on the other hand, are in a
single key; presumably all the instruments were at the same pitch. But there
is reason to think the prevailing pitch at Cöthen was a form of
tief-Cammerton, either A-1½ or A-2. The voice ranges of cantatas written
there are unusually high, and when he used material from Cöthen later at
Leipzig, Bach sometimes performed it at 'tief-Cammerthon'. The problematic
trumpet part to the second Brandenburg concerto would be significantly
easier on an instrument at tief-Cammerton instead of A-1.
At Leipzig, the performing materials for most of Bach's vocal works indicate
that the strings, voices and woodwinds were at Cammerton and the organ and
brass were a major 2nd higher. Bach's predecessor, Johann Kuhnau, had
specified in 1717 that the pitch of the organs at the Thomas- and
Nicolaikirchen was Cornet-ton. But Kuhnau had used figural instruments at
intervals of both a 2nd and a minor 3rd below Cornet-ton, 'depending', he
said, 'on which is most convenient' (i.e. which pitch would yield mutually
satisfying keys). He had woodwinds available, in other words, at both normal
Cammerton and at tief-Cammerton. Since tonalities with open strings were
preferable on the string instruments, and appropriate tonalities were
critical for the unkeyed woodwinds, the presence of woodwinds tuned a
semitone apart was extremely practical: it offered Kuhnau a choice of more
combinations of keys in which to compose.
During Bach's first year and a half at Leipzig, he took advantage of this
option by writing several cantatas at tief-Cammerton: nos.22, 23, 63 and
194, and also the first version of the Magnificat. (Cantatas nos.22 and 23
were his trial pieces and were performed together; Cantata no.63 had been
conceived some years earlier, probably for performance at tief-Cammerton,
and in Leipzig was performed on the same day as the Magnificat - which, with
Cantata no.194, had antecedents in Cöthen.) The last known date that Bach
used the tief-Cammerton option with his regular winds was 4 June 1724. He
revised the Magnificat for a performance in the 1730s, transposing it from E
to D, probably because tief-Cammerton woodwinds were no longer available.
Questions of notation and transposition caused by pitch differences affect
the following works by Bach: bwv12, 18, 21, 22, 23, 31, 63, 70a, 71, 80a,
106, 131, 132, 147a, 150, 152, 155, 161, 162, 172, 182, 185, 186a, 194, 199,
208 and 243a. Most but not all these questions are addressed by the Neue
Bach-Ausgabe (for a detailed discussion, see Haynes, A1995).
Pitch, §I, 2: History of European pitch standards since the late 16th
century

 Se dal 1971 non l'hanno mai accordato credo che sia insuonabile :-(
Saltuariamente sono state accordate le ance. Però devo dirti che il resto è
tutto calante con una piccola differenza, cioè un po' meno calante, delle
canne dentro la cassa espressiva che purtroppo si chiude sempre ad organo
spento.
A.

Altri due siti di interesse (scusate se sono arrivato tardi, ho visto i
post solo sino al 13)
PITCH IN ITALIAN STRING KEYBOARD INSTRUMENTS
 
http://www.denzilwraight.com/pitch.htm
Renaissance flute pitches
http://www.baroqueflute.com/models/renaissance/ConsortPitch.html
-- 
per rispondere via email incrementa il numero dopo temporary+ sino a che
l'email mi arriva. Al momento credo 13 vada bene.

 eh eh eh
allora perchč non metti i link?


 allora perchè non metti i link?
perchè non ci sono link, io ho l'accesso tramite password.
E' tratto dal Grove, ultima edizione, 2/2000
Lo puoi scaricare solo se hai pagato l'abbonamento annuale.
Maleducato.
Z.

 Z.
certo Zorro, sono un cafone! Ma allora, forse, mi permetto di
suggerire, di mettere il link comunque, che cosi' chi vuole si puo'
iscrivere... non so, se non ti disturba..
g.


 iscrivere... non so, se non ti disturba..
cosě va meglio.
www.grovemusic.com
Z.