Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: coloni/settlers - ovvero il nocciolo del problema M.O.

Un interessante articolo di haaretz che fa una mini-cronologia
degli insediamenti con alcune considerazioni al contorno utili anche
per altri thread.
ricordo che il thread intero sta qui:
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=6196c429.0210190016.fc4fd2d%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26safe%3Doff%26q%3Dit.politica.internazionale%26meta%3D
ecco invece il nuovo articolo di haaretz
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=222490&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
 
The hidden threat of the outposts
The entire settlement enterprise began 35 years ago with an incident
Ovvero il 1967, notare il ruolo degli insediamenti, secondo l'autore,
nella situazione attuale di Israele
similar to this week's - an illegal settlement, which the government
then
retroactively legalized at the urging of several misguided
intellectuals. The
battle over Havat Gilad is reminiscent of that beginning, which has
since,
together with Palestinian terror, pushed the state into a political
and
spiritual blind alley. 
Ten years after 1967, there were still only 31
settlements with 4,400 inhabitants. Now there are more than 120
"legal"
settlements with almost 50 times as many settlers. There are also some
90 illegal outposts containing 700 to 1,000 zealots obsessed with
rocks.
Nel caso ci si ricordi il thread parallelo sull'Apartheid in Israele,
e' stato disputato da altro user (enigma italiano) la validita' di
dati
forniti da Le Monde (2000) verso altri dati (1997<= ?) sulla
disponibilita'
d'acqua pro-capite tra palestinesi e criminali ebrei noti come
settlers.
Essendo che e' appunto un (acqua / popolazione) e' chiaro che la  data
della rilevazione conta ai fini del risultato. Cfr. anche "Since the
days
when Sharon's bitter rival, Benjamin Netanyahu, occupied the Prime 
Minister's Office, 106 outposts have sprung up"
A prescindere dal numero e' interessante notare che l'articolista 
definisce "proto-fascist" lo stile di detti criminali
The battle against the removal of these outposts has become one of the
most dangerous of all the settlement tactics. The threat they
constitute is
far greater than one weekend's rioting. 
How can they be removed? The government knows how. It has displayed
great initiative this year every time it decided to liquidate terror.
The
outposts are also a danger, and a particularly grave one, as they
constitute
an internal threat that is partially clothed - through the leadership
of
self-righteous rabbis and people such as Effi Eitam - in a
proto-fascist
style. 
[taglio cosi' evidenzio la discussione sul fascismo]
Why fascist? Because, even by the most dispassionate definition,
people
 like Eitam fit the specifications of this European concept. The
sanctity of
the land, even beyond the boundaries of the state; the worthiness of
blood
sacrifice for areas beyond the horizon; the abstract concepts of the
significance of the people and the homeland; and the readiness to use
the
nation's military might for the sake of all of the above. Israel,
according to
Eitam, is not just a pragmatic entity whose goal is to worry about the
welfare of its residents. Its raison d'etre, from the Jordan to the
sea, is "to
reveal the image of God in the world ... to be the Noah's Ark of the
future ...
to reveal God's workings in history," and other idiocies that compete
with
the most degenerate texts from the height of German and Italian
romanticism. 
[..]
One of the principal tools of this stream, which has been abandoned by
men of
intellect and spirit, is to burrow into rocky hills in the heart of
the
Palestinian population - the more crowded, the better. And Israeli
crypto-fascism, armed with vague religiosity, tries to bestow upon
these
land grab swindles an image of heroism and renewal.
Even if the settlement enterprise were not a huge barrier to any
agreement,
the behavior that fuels it constitutes a national threat because of
its
creeping Jewish fascism, which is still hidden from the eyes of most
Israelis.
[..]
Ecco, correttamente si indica il Romanticismo Italiano _e_ Tedesco
come
cause del Fascismo, e' anche pero' noto che la versione tedesca, del
tutto
peculiare, si chiama Nazismo. Secondo me la mentalita' dei criminali
ebrei detti coloni e' piu' vicina al Nazismo che al Fascismo
(quest'ultimo
aveva un impianto religioso nullo mentre il primo era fortemente 
misticheggiante) , sono curioso di vedere se su un giornale ebreo
un altro ebreo dara' finalmente del nazista a suddetti tagliagole
delle colonie.
Per adesso siamo al "fascismo".
Ah, chiudo con del materiale sulla discussione acqua:
[..]
the Jewish zealots
of the West Bank are making a mockery of the law - like the outpost of
Migron, for instance, which began with a Cellcom transponder and went
on
to a mikveh (ritual bath) for 20 families.
[..] 
Bye
======
From: Skunx (sk...@skunx.it.invalid)
Subject: Re: E' morto SPOCK, il moderatore di ISCI. 
Newsgroups: it.news.moderazione
[..]
Ricorda che stai rispondendo al De Cesari, un ROTFL vivente.
quindi prendila con brio almeno quando scrive lui!

diversa rispetto agli Arabi Palestinesi.
Che cavolo c'entrano gli Arabi PALESTINESI con i CITTADINI ISRAELIANI
di
religione araba, ce lo vuoi spiegare Pirlissima(TM)? :)
===========
... la nota "religione araba"

 altri insediamenti sono sorti.
Con l'autorizzazion del governo oppure no? :)
Perche' se sono illegali, sapessi quante case abusive vengono costruite
qui in Italia :)))  (la Valle dei Templi e' uno dei casi storici piu'
emblematici)
Ma continua cosi' Pirlissima(TM)! :)
-Stefano

seren...@my-deja.com
 (serenissima) wrote in message news:<
Giusto per capirsi sulla centralita' dei settlers
[..]
Toward afternoon, it appeared that a compromise deal had been worked
out
over Labor's demand that funding to settlements in the West Bank and
Gaza Strip, to the tune of $145 million, be reallocated to the weaker
sectors of society. Labor has also been demanding that more funds be
allocated to students and pensioners.
[..]
cosi' Haaretz nel commentare il collasso del governo  Israeliano
sulle molto prosaiche questioni del bilancio
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=225206&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
Labor to leave unity gov't as talks to end coalition crisis fail
Altro materiale interessante e' questo della BBC, organizzazioni
di destra  ebraica pagano (nel senso letterale del termine)
i palestinesi perche' se ne vadano - leggere i dettagli sotto:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2377273.stm
Wednesday, 30 October, 2002, 16:19 GMT 
Palestinians 'paid' to leave their homes
C'e pure la pulizia etnica con giustificazione religioso
(altri dettagli sul nazismo ebraico si trovano nell'altro
thread su apartheid in Israele: 
[..]
Zeevi's successor as leader of Moledet is
Benny Elon. He has come up with his own
peace plan based on the idea of transfer or
mass expulsion. 
Included is a quotation from the Old
Testament Book of Numbers - God's words
to the Israelites: "When you cross the
Jordan to the land of Cainan you shall drive
out all the inhabitants of the land before you." 
[..]
E' interessante l'alternativa: trasferimento _o_ espulsione.
Bye


Palestinians 'paid' to leave their homes
Buon per loro :)
Ci dovrebbero pensare i palestinesi a dargli una vita migliore invece
degli israeliani :)
-Stefano

seren...@my-deja.com
 (serenissima) wrote in message news:<
Come e' noto il governo israeliano si e' schiantato sul problema dei
settler,
non credo che per tutti sia stata quaestione di ideologia, a leggere
gli articoli di Haartez si vede quel clientelismo socialdemocristiano
dei tempi pentapartitici - sfrotunatamente parte di queste clientele 
sono armate e pericolose.
Comunque presento quattro articoli con dei "trailers" del contenuto.
1) Taglio 'razionale', della serie contiamo  solo i soldi, e'
interessante
notare i paralleli con l'Italia pentapartitica - non si sa a quanto
ammontino i fondi...
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=225407&contrassID=assID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=225407
The dear high-maintenance sons
By Nehemia Strasler
One of the disputes over the 2003 budget is about state spending on
the
settlers. The Labor Party says their funds should be cut, but the
finance
minister says the cuts already been made across the board affect
everyone, including the settlers. Therefore, he says, Labor's demands
are
groundless, and there's no way the treasury can reverse the cutbacks
in
pensions, the damage done to single-parent families, and the reduced
guaranteed income payments - because there's no money available.
[..]
The truth is, it is very difficult to find out just how much money
goes to the
settlers. Nowhere in the budget is there a line that says "settlers,"
just like
there's no such line that says "Be'er Sheva." The funding is
distributed
through the ministries, and a lot depends on the attitude of the
individual
minister.[..]
e' vero comunque quello che si dice sull'umorismo ebreo:
For example, National Religious Affairs Minister Yitzhak Levy
heads the Tourism Ministry, and its director general is Aharon Domb, a
long-time settlement movement leader. 
They regard development of tourism to the territories as their highest
priority
- because it is so well known that tourists like traveling in armored
buses.
[..]
Segue dettagliata analisi (fondi vs. locazione geografia) con
conclusione
[..]
Is there any clearer proof of the Sharon-Shalom government's cynical
policies
 - more for the territories and less for the development towns. [..]
So, how can Sharon and Shalom claim there's
nowhere to cut? There's plenty to cut. But to do so, the government
has to
reinstate Yitzhak Rabin's proper priorities of 1992 - less for the
territories,
more for the periphery.
[..]
2) Questo altro pezzo e' invece consigliabile a chi si appassionava
alle
descrizioni di crisi di governo viste dalla buvette di Montecitorio,
l'articolo e' notevolmente piu; lungo del precedente.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=225382&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
And then they all fell down
One word could have saved the day - but it was `settlement.' 
By Yossi Verter
[..]
The main, troublesome issue was the settlements. The aim of the
negotiations was to allow Ben-Eliezer to climb down from the tall tree
he
had climbed into, without being turned into a punch-bag for MK Haim
Ramon and Haifa Mayor Amram Mitzna, his opponents in Labor. Sharon
would be able to keep his national unity government without
infuriating the
settlers and right wing of the government. 
The main dispute was over the language. Caspi and Ne'eman invested all
they had learned in their combined near century of law practice, and
came
up with a formula to say that government funds would be distributed to
the
citizens of the state according to egalitarian criteria and not
according to
public sectors. Thus they hoped to sidestep the huge landmine labeled
"the
settlements." 
[..]
3) Passiamo poi alle questioni "orbitanti" intorno agli insediamenti,
la questione del "fence" - cioe' barriera intorno ai terriotori
occupati,
invisa ai criminali ebrei noti come settlers in quanto li taglia
fisicamente fuori, evidenziando il loro status, come postato in questo
thread (segnatamente nel post precedente a questo con url della BBC)
farnge di questi criminali propongono pulizie etniche nei territori
da perseguirsi in diversi modi (cfr. BBC  citata).
Notevole esempio di spreco di denaro e di incrociarsi di competenze
('azzo come assomiglia Israle all'Italia  dei rampanti anni '80 )
e' da segnalare anche qui un interessante esempio di umorismo.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=225424&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=225424
 A white elephant on the Green Line
By Akiva Eldar
[..]
Those who take it "lightly" say that it's another example of the
"it'll be okay"
in the tradition of Israeli contractors: First build the fence and
then worry
about the passage. Who knows? Maybe someone will even work out a way
to draft Thai workers to guard the fence
[..]
4) Segue poi una discussione sul tema se il settler sia un bersaglio
legittimo,
discussione da inquadrare nel piu' vasto tema di cosa sia un bersaglio
legittimo - mettere una bomba ed uccidere dei minorenni (o comunque
dei
civili) entro i confini del 1967 e' chiaramente un atto illegittimo.
Diverso il caso di un civile "colono" al di fuori di questo confine.
L'articolista di haaretz sostiene  che anche questo e' bersaglio
illegittimo, mentre la posizione Palestinese e' cosi espressa:
[..]
This approach was outlined by new Palestinian Interior Minister Hani
al-Hassan, who said (Ha'aretz, October 29): "The settlers cannot be
considered citizens" because "they are not in the right place, they
are
armed, the army makes use of them and they kill Palestinians." This
perception of settlers is in line with statements by leaders of the
most
radical organizations, who say all Israel is "a military society" in
which
there is no distinction between citizens and soldiers. The entire
Israeli
public, according to this view, is "a military public" and therefore a
legitimate target.
[..]
l'articolista propone una difesa alla "wet blanket"
[..]
PA representatives must take this position into consideration. As long
as
the Palestinian organizations try to distinguish between groups of
Israelis
on a geographic or political basis and use terror against some of
them,
while negotiating with the others - they will find themselves up
against a
total Israeli solidarity that rejects this approach out of hand. The
Israeli
public will support, by a large majority, a political move intended to
settle
the dispute peacefully, yet will stand up to fight against terrorism
wherever
it is.
da 
No legitimate terrorism
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=
225425&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=225425
Su questo pero' dissentirei - fermo restando che sui minorenni si
applicano
le  usuali considerazioni di incapacota' di intendere e di volere -
dal
comportamento di questi criminali noti come settlers (cfr. Hebron
e i recenti casi della raccolta delle olive), e soprattutto dalla loro
locazione geografica, direi che la loro legittimita' come bersaglio
e' abbastanza chiara. E direi che si vede bene che i Palestinesi 
ben discriminano, che non hanno certo attaccato i Rebbini per la pace 
o gli scrittori ebrei che con altri pacifisti sono andati li ad
aiutarli
con il raccolto.



piů coincisione
articoli tradotti
link piů abbordabili
Grazie
Pomero

I documenti che aggiungo a questo thread archivio sono:
1) Lunghissimo ma *molto* interessante.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=209509&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
e' la storia degli editori di Haaretz, tipi tosti, ebrei tedeschi
e del loro giornale e, quindi, di Israele stessa.
E' molto interessante la combattuta descrizione di come ebrei accusino
altri ebrei (in questo caso appunto quelli di Haaretz) di rovinare
l'immagine di Israele riportando cio' che accade nei territori.
"Some readers were incensed that we continued to cover Palestinian
life under Israeli occupation" 
La questione e' cosi' complessa che riassumerla e' difficile quindi
gli interessati sono invitati a leggersela in originale.
Da questo articolo estrapolo questa sola testimonianza abbastanza
drammatica:
[..]
Who are the Ben-Artzis? Yonatan's father, Matanya Ben Artzi, is a
professor of mathematics and physics. He served in the Israeli Army,
[..]
He worked for 12 years at Rafael, the government authority responsible
for developing sophisticated armaments for the Israeli Army. He did
[..]
Matanya Ben-Artzi rejected the vision of Greater Israel right after
the Six
Day War. In 1980, when called for reserve military service, he refused
to
serve in the occupied territories and was tried, but was not sent to
prison.
Matanya Ben-Artzi has a brother, Haggai. Haggai lives in Beit-El, a
Jewish
settlement in the West Bank, in the occupied territories. Once, in the
early
eighties, Matanya went by bus to visit his brother. As the bus drove
along,
Palestinians threw stones at it, and there was some commotion.
Arriving at
the settlement, he asked his brother why the people there didn't
travel in
buses with shatter-proofed windows. The answer was: Out of principle,
we
travel the same way people do in Tel-Aviv, but we react differently.
The
reaction was revenge, taken on Palestinian villages in the
neighbourhood.
The next day Matanya read in the papers that the settlers had
destroyed
Palestinian cars and other property. He told his brother he would not
visit
him again, as he did not want to be an accomplice to all that. He has
not
gone there since. 
[..]
2) Sull'assassinio di Rabin e' stato scritto molto, questa pero' val
la
pena evidenziarla si parla di settlers e si parla di..
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=226544&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Don't say, 'We didn't know'
By Akiva Eldar
Prof. Yuli Tamir, a minister in Ehud Barak's government, opened her
speech at the ceremony to mark the seventh anniversary of Rabin's
murder
with the following quote: "You, the residents of Judea, Samaria and
Gaza,
are responsible for your lives, and you must get ready... Remember the
saison; don't forget the Altalena. When they talk about democracy,
speak
to them of life... The [Rabin] government is handing the settlers over
to
armed Palestinian gangs... Such actions are part of the left's
spiritual
existence. Members of Peace Now are closer to the murderers of the PLO
than they are to you.
Chi ha detto questo? Nell'articolo vi e' la risposta - giusto per dare
una traccia e' il mandante della strage di Sabra e Chatila.
3) Con al governo un personaggio definibile come criminale di guerra
e' prevedibile una situazione disastrosa come quella descritta dalla
BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2353851.stm
Thursday, 31 October, 2002, 11:31 GMT 
Palestinians query viability of two states
Di questo articolo quello che mi ha piu' colpito e' l'intervista
al sindaco dell'insediamento di criminali ebrei noti come settlers
che parla apertamente dei suoi piani. La tragedia umana che si
svolge in quei luoghi impedisce di sottolineare gli aspetti assurdi
della vicenda.
Questo e' cio' che dicono i Palestinesi:
The Palestinians say the Israelis are attempting to isolate Ramallah 
from the rest of the West Bank. 
Il giornalista della BBC va quindi dall'Ebreo con mappa
preparata dai Palestinesi per verificare come stanno le cose.
To check this, I went to see the Mayor of the Binyamin Bloc, 
Pinhas Valerstein. I showed him a map  prepared by the 
Palestinians - outlining the projected
expansion of his settlements. 
questa e' la risposta:
"No, it's much bigger, for sure," the Mayor
told me, pointing to the expansion area the
Palestinians had drawn. He believes that the
Palestinians have actually underestimated his ambitions. 
His plans to encircle and cut off Ramallah go
much further than the Palestinians have  predicted. 
Beh, recentemente c'erano personaggi assimilabili a questo
Binyamin Bloc che faceva piani di conquista della 
Russia e di tutto l'Est Europeo - e' noto come sono finiti.
4) Ultimo articolo che presento in questo post e' un notevole
articolo dell'Economist disponibile liberamente - suggerisco
di salvare le cartine che sono fatte davvero bene.
Nello stile dell'Economist fanno sempre riferimento a dati numerici
http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1418340
Swallowing all before them
Oct 31st 2002 | EAST JERUSALEM 
Despite the intifada, Israel intensifies colonisation of the West Bank
[..]
There are now 123 Jewish settlements in the West Bank,
and 12 in occupied East Jerusalem, housing some
380,000 settlers who share the territory with 2.4m
Palestinians. They do not share it equally.
According to a recent study by B'Tselem, an Israeli human-rights
group, the
West Bank settler population doubled in size during the seven-year
Oslo
peace process, and the settlements' territorial reach has now been
extended
to cover nearly 42% of the West Bank. This huge expansion has been
achieved largely through the construction of settler-only bypass roads
and
military zones which serve to integrate the settlements with Israel
proper.
[..]
e' interessante notare tattiche che se le avessero applicate i Serbi
sarebbero state etichettate 'pulizia etnica', visto che le fanno
invece
i coloni ebrei esse sono per cosi' dire 'inosservate' da chi mandava
i bombardieri su Belgrado - i miracoli del doppio standard.
[..]
Take Itamar, a settlement near Nablus. Home to fewer
than 500 settlers, it has established seven outposts,
some ten kilometres (six miles) beyond its built-up
area. Earlier this month, the  last families from the
neighbouring Palestinian village of Yanun were forced
to leave their homes after  years of armed harassment
from Itamar's settlers. It was the first full evacuation of a
Palestinian village since the 1967 war.
[..]
Circa le pessimistiche prospettive per il futuro basta la chiusura
dell'Economist [..] and Mr Sharon has consistently ruled out a freeze.
c.v.d.
L'unica venatura di ottimismo e' che il Sharon comincia ad avere
una veneranda eta' e quindi dovra' schiattare prima o poi (meglio
prima),
schiattasse lui insieme  ad Arafat direi che i maggiori ostacoli alla 
pace sarebbero rimossi. 
 
Bye
Il thread completo e' reperibile sotto:
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=6196c429.0210190016.fc4fd2d%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26safe%3Doff%26q%3Dit.politica.internazionale%26meta%3D

Leggendo su Haaretz un articolo su un argomento assolutamente
scorrelato,
ovvero di una tizia che ha restaurato un castello, sono stato colpito
da questo paragrafo 
Kerem Maharal, which is registered as a cooperative community, is
located
on Mt. Carmel, and is today a kind of rural-style communal settlement,
whose residents are well-to-do people seeking a good quality of life.
It was
established at the beginning of the 1950s by Czech and Hungarian
immigrants as an agricultural moshav, on the ruins of the Arab village
of
Ijzim, which was entirely destroyed by the Israel Defense Forces
during the
War of Independence. The ruin that Martin bought was actually the only
prominent vestige of the Arab village. 
[..]
"If you check into the past of the castle, it was never isolated on
the hill,"
 Yigal Shaham - deputy head of the Hof Hacarmel council, a resident of
Kerem Maharal and an engineer who is among the initiators of the
expansion plan - says in response. "It was an Arab structure
surrounded by
other such structures. Secondly, since Kerem Maharal was established,
the area around the castle has been zoned for building, and I don't
think
construction around the castle will damage it because no one intends
to
infringe on its property, as defined in the tenants' lease." 
[..]
preso da 
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=227765&contrassID=2&subContrassID=11&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=227765
This castle is their home
Tzila Martin bought an old ruin for pennies in Kerem Maharal near
Haifa, and turned it into her dream home. Now, the neighbors are
fighting to build in the area around the historic structure, but
Martin is
[..]
l'articolo, molto lungo, e' assolutamente centrato su vicende
personali
di restauro e beghe di confine per la costruzione di case etc..
e' pero' interessante perche' da' la misura di come la societa'
ebraica
ha per cosi' dire interiorizzato la pulizia etnica: c'era un villaggio
Arabo, spianato dall'IDF, ed ora ebrei cechi ed ungheresi si
contendono
le terre degli arabi espulsi con altri ebrei. Propio una bella
societa'.
 
Sottolinerei "cechi ed ungheresi" (e la data, anni '50) 
giusto per quegli users di IPI che parlavano della composizione
della popolazione della Palestina ante-colonizzazione Ebraica.
Bye
Ricordo che  il thread completo e' reperibile sotto:
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=6196c429.0210190016.fc4fd2d%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26safe%3Doff%26q%3Dit.politica.internazionale%26meta%3D