Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: Copenhagen, la stoltezza dell’Occidente e la saggezza dell’innominabile

Vorrei innanzitutto vedere libero Luca Tornatore, il climatologo
(precario) dell’Università di Trieste arrestato come un terrorista a
Copenhagen dalla civilissima polizia danese.
Poi vorrei che sul clima i giornali e i telegiornali la smettessero di
tergiversare e dessero pane al pane. Sono gli Stati Uniti (e in
subordine l’Unione Europea) che stanno facendo fallire un accordo
chiave per il futuro dell’umanità perché non vogliono spostare una
virgola del loro (nostro) modello economico fallito e insostenibile.
Deve essere l’India forse, che ha tre quarti degli abitanti che vivono
senza elettricità, a stringersi?
Vorrei che i disinformatori di professione dicessero che Hillary
Clinton sta cercando di comprarsi i paesi del Sud del mondo con una
elemosina di 100 miliardi di dollari in cambio di non fare alcun
accordo concreto e far fallire tutto il castello come sarebbe stato
bravo a fare anche George Bush.
E invece i giornali stanno facendo credere che 100 miliardi siano un
sacco di soldi e soprattutto non dicono che quei cento miliardi di
dollari sono una tangente per chiudere gli occhi sui lutti futuri. Noi
vi diamo sti quattro soldi e non spostiamo di un virgola il nostro
modello di sviluppo che ci ha benedetto domine iddio sulle tavole
della legge!
La gente comune pensa che davvero 100 miliardi di dollari siano un
sacco di soldi. Ricordo che solo il fallimento della Lehman Brothers
fu di 600 miliardi di dollari, e che solo per l’assicurazione AIG il
governo statunitense elargì aiuti pubblici per 170 miliardi di
dollari. E allora i giornali dovrebbero scriverlo che è il governo
statunitense a boicottare la conferenza dell’ONU sul clima invece di
tergiversare e dar la colpa alla Cina. Che io sappia solo Diletta
Varlese ha ripreso la denuncia gravissima che in assemblea danesi e
statunitensi stanno da giorni truccando le carte facendo votare
documenti diversi da quelli sui quali si dibatte. E’ un vecchio
trucchetto che ho visto applicare anche nei FSM ma dal governo del
gran Obama queste cose uno non se le aspetta.
E invece stanno zitti, fanno i giornalisti e invece sono più omertosi
di un membro della cupola di Cosa nostra. Lo testimonia il fatto che
non riferiscono quello che ha detto il presidente venezuelano Hugo
Chávez (sul quale è sospettosamente caduto l’oblio totale fino a
renderlo innominabile): “se il clima fosse stato una banca i soldi li
avrebbero già trovati”.
gennaro carotenuto

Copenhagen dalla civilissima polizia danese.
il vertice ï¿½ fallito per colpa della Cina. Punto. 

 wrote in message 
news:7d6ea421-fec9-47dc...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Vorrei innanzitutto vedere libero Luca Tornatore, il climatologo
(precario) dell�Universit� di Trieste arrestato come un terrorista a
Copenhagen dalla civilissima polizia danese.
Poi vorrei che sul clima i giornali e i telegiornali la smettessero di
tergiversare e dessero pane al pane. Sono gli Stati Uniti (e in
subordine l�Unione Europea) che stanno facendo fallire un accordo
chiave per il futuro dell�umanit� perch� non vogliono spostare una
virgola del loro (nostro) modello economico fallito e insostenibile.
Deve essere l�India forse, che ha tre quarti degli abitanti che vivono
senza elettricit�, a stringersi?
Vorrei che i disinformatori di professione dicessero che Hillary
Clinton sta cercando di comprarsi i paesi del Sud del mondo con una
elemosina di 100 miliardi di dollari in cambio di non fare alcun
accordo concreto e far fallire tutto il castello come sarebbe stato
bravo a fare anche George Bush.
E invece i giornali stanno facendo credere che 100 miliardi siano un
sacco di soldi e soprattutto non dicono che quei cento miliardi di
dollari sono una tangente per chiudere gli occhi sui lutti futuri. Noi
vi diamo sti quattro soldi e non spostiamo di un virgola il nostro
modello di sviluppo che ci ha benedetto domine iddio sulle tavole
della legge!
La gente comune pensa che davvero 100 miliardi di dollari siano un
sacco di soldi. Ricordo che solo il fallimento della Lehman Brothers
fu di 600 miliardi di dollari, e che solo per l�assicurazione AIG il
governo statunitense elarg� aiuti pubblici per 170 miliardi di
dollari. E allora i giornali dovrebbero scriverlo che � il governo
statunitense a boicottare la conferenza dell�ONU sul clima invece di
tergiversare e dar la colpa alla Cina. Che io sappia solo Diletta
Varlese ha ripreso la denuncia gravissima che in assemblea danesi e
statunitensi stanno da giorni truccando le carte facendo votare
documenti diversi da quelli sui quali si dibatte. E� un vecchio
trucchetto che ho visto applicare anche nei FSM ma dal governo del
gran Obama queste cose uno non se le aspetta.
E invece stanno zitti, fanno i giornalisti e invece sono pi� omertosi
di un membro della cupola di Cosa nostra. Lo testimonia il fatto che
non riferiscono quello che ha detto il presidente venezuelano Hugo
Ch�vez (sul quale � sospettosamente caduto l�oblio totale fino a
renderlo innominabile): �se il clima fosse stato una banca i soldi li
avrebbero gi� trovati�.
gennaro carotenuto
#_Quotissimo!
...e dato che ne ha fatto cenno, il testo del discorso di Chavez e`questo:
Venezuelan President�s Speech on Climate Change in Copenhagen
December 17th 2009, by Hugo Chavez
Copenhagen, Kingdom of Denmark
Wednesday, December 16th, 2009
President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Ch�vez:
Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, Excellencies, friends, I promise that I 
will not talk more than most have spoken this afternoon. Allow me an initial 
comment which I would have liked to make as part of the previous point which 
was expressed by the delegations of Brazil, China, India, and Bolivia. We 
were there asking to speak but it was not possible. Bolivia's representative 
said, my salute of course to Comrade President Evo Morales, who is there, 
President of the Republic of Bolivia.
She said among other things the following, I noted it here, she said the 
text presented is not democratic, it is not inclusive.
I had hardly arrived and we were just sitting down when we heard the 
president of the previous session, the minister, saying that a document came 
about, but nobody knows, I've asked for the document, but we still don�t 
have it, I think nobody knows of that top secret document.
Now certainly, as the Bolivian comrade said, that is not democratic, it is 
not inclusive. Now, ladies and gentlemen, isn�t that just the reality of the 
world?
Are we in a democratic world? Is the global system inclusive? Can we hope 
for something democratic, inclusive from the current global system?
What we are experiencing on this planet is an imperial dictatorship, and 
from here we continue denouncing it. Down with imperial dictatorship! And 
long live the people and democracy and equality on this planet!
And what we see here is a reflection of this: Exclusion.
There is a group of countries that consider themselves superior to us in the 
South, to us in the Third World, to us, the underdeveloped countries, or as 
a great friend Eduardo Galeano says, we, the crushed countries, as if a 
train ran over us in history.
In light of this, it�s no surprise that there is no democracy in the world 
and here we are again faced with powerful evidence of global imperial 
dictatorship. Then two youths got up here, fortunately the enforcement 
officials were decent, some push around, and they collaborated right? There 
are many people outside, you know? Of course, they do not fit in this room, 
they are too many people. I've read in the news that there were some 
arrests, some intense protests, there in the streets of Copenhagen, and I 
salute all those people out there, most of them youth.
Of course young people are concerned, I think rightly much more than we are, 
for the future of the world. We have - most of us here - the sun on our 
backs, and they have to face the sun and are very worried.
One could say, Mr. President, that a spectre is haunting Copenhagen, to 
paraphrase Karl Marx, the great Karl Marx, a spectre is haunting the streets 
of Copenhagen, and I think that spectre walks silently through this room, 
walking around among us, through the halls, out below, it rises, this 
spectre is a terrible spectre almost nobody wants to mention it: Capitalism 
is the spectre, almost nobody wants to mention it.
It�s capitalism, the people roar, out there, hear them.
I have been reading some of the slogans painted on the streets, and I think 
those slogans of these youngsters, some of which I heard when I was young, 
and of the young woman there, two of which I noted. You can hear among 
others, two powerful slogans. One: Don�t change the climate, change the 
system.
And I take it onboard for us. Let�s not change the climate, let�s change the 
system! And consequently we will begin to save the planet. Capitalism is a 
destructive development model that is putting an end to life; it threatens 
to put a definitive end to the human species.
And another slogan calls for reflection. It is very in tune with the banking 
crisis that swept the world and still affects it, and of how the rich 
northern countries gave aid to bankers and the big banks. The U.S. alone 
gave, well, I lost the figure, but it is astronomical, to save the banks. 
They say in the streets the following: If the climate were a bank it would 
have been saved already.
And I think that's true. If the climate were one of the biggest capitalist 
banks, the rich governments would have saved it.
I think Obama has not arrived. He received the Nobel Peace Prize almost the 
same day that he sent 30 thousand soldiers to kill more innocents in 
Afghanistan, and now he comes to stand here with the Nobel Peace Prize, the 
president of the United States.
But the United States has the machinery to make money, to make dollars, and 
has saved, well, they believe they have saved the banks and the capitalist 
system.
Well, this is a side comment that I wanted to make previously. We were 
raising our hand to accompany Brazil, India, Bolivia, China, in their 
interesting position that Venezuela and the countries of the Bolivarian 
Alliance firmly share. But hey, they didn�t let us speak, so do not count 
these minutes please, Mr. President.
Look, over there I met, I had the pleasure of meeting this French author 
Herv� Kempf. Recommending this book, I recommend it, it is available in 
Spanish � there is Herv� - its also in French, and surely in English, How 
the Rich are Destroying the Planet. Herv� Kempf: How the Rich are Destroying 
the Planet. This is what Christ said: it would be easier for a camel to pass 
through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of 
heaven. This is what our lord Christ said.
The rich are destroying the planet. Do they think the can go to another when 
they destroy this one? Do they have plans to go to another planet? So far 
there is none on the horizon of the galaxy.
This book has just reached me, Ignacio Ramonet gave it to me, and he is also 
around somewhere in this room. Finishing the prologue or the preamble this 
phrase is very important, Kempf says the following, I�ll read it:
�We can not reduce global material consumption if we don�t make the powerful 
go down several levels, and if we don�t combat inequality. It is necessary 
that to the ecological principle that is so useful at the time of becoming 
conscious, �think globally and act locally,� we add the principle that the 
situation imposes: �Consume less and share better.��
I think it is good advice that this French author Herv� Kempf gives us.
Well then, Mr. President, climate change is undoubtedly the most devastating 
environmental problem of this century. Floods, droughts, severe storms, 
hurricanes, melting ice caps, rise in mean sea levels, ocean acidification 
and heat waves, all of that sharpens the impact of global crisis besetting 
us.
Current human activity exceeds the threshold of sustainability, endangering 
life on the planet, but also in this we are profoundly unequal.
I want to recall: the 500 million richest people, 500 million, this is seven 
percent, seven percent, seven percent of the world�s population. This seven 
percent is responsible, these 500 million richest people are responsible for 
50 percent of emissions, while the poorest 50 percent accounts for only 
seven percent of emissions.
So it strikes me as a bit strange to put the United States and China at the 
same level. The United States has just, well; it will soon reach 300 million 
people. China has nearly five times the U.S. population. The United Status 
consumes more than 20 million barrels of oil a day, China only reaches 5-6 
million barrels a day, you can�t ask the same of the United States and 
China.
There are issues to discuss, hopefully we the heads of states and 
governments can sit down and discuss the truth, the truth about these 
issues.
So, Mr. President, 60 percent of the planet�s ecosystems are damaged, 20 
percent of the earth's crust is degraded, we have been impassive witnesses 
to deforestation, land conversion, desertification, deterioration of fresh 
water systems, overexploitation of marine resources, pollution and loss of 
biodiversity.
The overuse of the land exceeds by 30 percent the capacity to regenerate it. 
The planet is losing what the technicians call the ability to regulate 
itself; the planet is losing this. Every day more waste than can be 
processed is released. The survival of our species hammers in the 
consciousness of humanity. Despite the urgency, it has taken two years of 
negotiations for a second commitment period under the Kyoto Protocol, and we 
attend this event without any real and meaningful agreement.
And indeed, on the text that comes from out of the blue, as some have called 
it, Venezuela says, and the ALBA countries, the Bolivarian Alliance say that 
we will not accept, since then we�ve said it, any other texts that do not 
come from working groups under the Kyoto Protocol and the Convention. They 
are the legitimate texts that we have been discussing so intensely over the 
years.
And in these last few hours, I believe you have not slept, plus you have not 
eaten, you have not slept. It does not seem logical to me to come out now 
with a document from scratch, as you say.
The scientifically substantiated objective of reducing the emission of 
polluting gases and achieving an agreement on long-term cooperation clearly, 
today at this time, has apparently failed, for now.
What is the reason? We have no doubt.
The reason is the irresponsible attitude and lack of political will from the 
most powerful nations on the planet. No one should feel offended, I recall 
the great Jos� Gervasio Artigas when he said: �With the truth, I neither 
offend nor fear.� But it is actually an irresponsible attitude of positions, 
of reversals, of exclusions, of elitist management of a problem that belongs 
to everyone and that we can only solve together.
The political conservatism and selfishness of the largest consumers, of the 
richest countries shows high insensitivity and lack of solidarity with the 
poor, the hungry, and the most vulnerable to disease, to natural disasters. 
Mr. President, a new and single agreement is essential, applicable to 
absolutely unequal parties, according to the magnitude of their 
contributions and economic, financial and technological capabilities and 
based on unconditional respect for the principles contained in the 
Convention.
Developed countries should set binding, clear and concrete commitments for 
the substantial reduction of their emissions and assume obligations of 
financial and technological assistance to poor countries to cope with the 
destructive dangers of climate change. In this respect, the uniqueness of 
island states and least developed countries should be fully recognized.
Mr. President, climate change is not the only problem facing humanity today. 
Other scourges and injustices beset us, the gap between rich and poor 
countries has continued to grow, despite all the millennium goals, the 
Monterrey financing summit, at all these summits as the President of Senegal 
said here, revealing a great truth, there are promises and unfulfilled 
promises and the world continues its destructive march.
The total income of the 500 richest individuals in the world is greater than 
the income of the 416 million poorest people. The 2.8 billion people living 
in poverty on less than $2 per day, representing 40 per percent of the 
global population, receive only 5 percent of world income.
Today each year about 9.2 million children die before reaching their fifth 
year and 99.9 percent of these deaths occur in poorer countries.
Infant mortality is 47 deaths per thousand live births, but is only 5 per 
thousand in rich countries. Life expectancy on the planet is 67 years, in 
rich countries it is 79, while in some poor nations is only 40 years.
Additionally, there are 1.1 billion people without access to drinking water, 
2.6 billion without sanitation services, over 800 million illiterate and 
1.02 billion hungry people, that�s the global scenario.
Now the cause, what is the cause?
Let�s talk about the cause, let�s not evade responsibilities, and let�s not 
evade the depth of this problem. The cause, undoubtedly, I return to the 
theme of this whole disastrous panorama, is the destructive metabolic system 
of capital and its embodied model: Capitalism.
Here�s a quote that I want to read briefly, from that great liberation 
theologian Leonardo Boff, as we know a Brazilian, our American. Leonardo 
Boff says on this subject as follows:
�What is the cause? Ah, the cause is the dream of seeking happiness through 
material accumulation and of endless progress, using for this science and 
technology with which they can exploit without limits all the resources of 
the earth.�
And he cites here Charles Darwin and his �natural selection�, the survival 
of the fittest, but we know that the strongest survive over the ashes of the 
weakest.
Jean Jacques Rousseau, we must always remember, said that between the strong 
and the weak, freedom is oppressed. That�s why the Empire speaks of freedom; 
it�s the freedom to oppress, to invade, to kill, to annihilate, and to 
exploit. That is their freedom, and Rousseau adds this saving phrase: �Only 
the law liberates.�
There are countries that are hoping that no document comes out of here 
precisely because they do not want a law, do not want a standard, because 
the absence of these norms allows them to play at their exploitative 
freedom, their crushing freedom.
We must make an effort and pressure here and in the streets, so that a 
commitment comes out of here, a document that commits the most powerful 
countries on earth.
Well, Mr. President, Leonardo Boff asks... Have you met Boff? I do not know 
whether Leonardo might come, I met him recently in Paraguay, we�ve always 
read him.
Can a finite earth support an infinite project? The thesis of capitalism, 
infinite development, is a destructive pattern, let�s face it.
Then Boff asks us, what might we expect from Copenhagen? At least this 
simple confession: We can not continue like this. And a simple proposition: 
Let�s change course. Let's do it, but without cynicism, without lies, 
without double agendas, no documents out of the blue, with the truth out in 
the open.
How long, we ask from Venezuela, Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, how 
long are we going to allow such injustices and inequalities? How long are we 
going to tolerate the current international economic order and prevailing 
market mechanisms? How long are we going to allow huge epidemics like 
HIV/AIDS to ravage entire populations? How long are we going to allow the 
hungry to not eat or to be able to feed their own children? How long are we 
going to allow millions of children to die from curable diseases? How long 
will we allow armed conflicts to massacre millions of innocent human beings 
in order for the powerful to seize the resources of other peoples?
Cease the aggressions and the wars! We the peoples of the world ask of the 
empires, to those who try to continue dominating the world and exploiting 
us.
No more imperial military bases or military coups! Let�s build a more just 
and equitable economic and social order, let�s eradicate poverty, let�s 
immediately stop the high emission levels, let�s stop environmental 
degradation and avoid the great catastrophe of climate change, let�s 
integrate ourselves into the noble goal of everyone being more free and 
united.
Mr. President, almost two centuries ago, a universal Venezuelan, a liberator 
of nations and precursor of consciences left to posterity a full-willed 
maxim: �If nature opposes us, let�s fight against it and make it obey us.� 
That was Sim�n Bol�var, the Liberator.
From Bolivarian Venezuela, where a day like today some ten years ago, ten 
years exactly, we experienced the biggest climate tragedy in our history 
(the Vargas tragedy it is called), from this Venezuela whose revolution 
tries to win justice for all people, we say it is only possible through the 
path of socialism!
Socialism, the other spectre Karl Marx spoke about, which walks here too, 
rather it is like a counter-spectre. Socialism, this is the direction, this 
is the path to save the planet, I don�t have the least doubt. Capitalism is 
the road to hell, to the destruction of the world. We say this from 
Venezuela, which because of socialism faces threats from the U.S. Empire.
From the countries that comprise ALBA, the Bolivarian Alliance, we call, and 
I want to, with respect, but from my soul, call in the name of many on this 
planet, we say to governments and peoples of the Earth, to paraphrase Sim�n 
Bol�var, the Liberator: If the destructive nature of capitalism opposes us, 
let�s fight against it and make it obey us, let�s not wait idly by for the 
death of humanity.
History calls on us to unite and to fight.
If capitalism resists, we are obliged to take up a battle against capitalism 
and open the way for the salvation of the human species. It�s up to us, 
raising the banners of Christ, Mohammed, equality, love, justice, humanity, 
the true and most profound humanism. If we don�t do it, the most wonderful 
creation of the universe, the human being, will disappear, it will 
disappear.
This planet is billions of years old, and this planet existed for billions 
of years without us, the human species, i.e. it doesn�t need us to exist. 
Now, without the Earth we will not exist, and we are destroying Pachamama as 
Evo says, as our indigenous brothers from South America say.
Finally, Mr. President, and to finish, let�s listen to Fidel Castro when he 
said: �One species is in danger of extinction: Humanity.�
Let�s listen to Rosa Luxemburg when she said: �Socialism or Barbarism.�
Let us listen to Christ the Redeemer when he said: �Blessed are the poor for 
theirs is the kingdom of heaven.�
Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, we are capable of not making this Earth 
the tomb of humanity. Let us make this earth a heaven, a heaven of life, of 
peace, peace and brotherhood for all humanity, for the human species.
Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much and enjoy your 
meal.

 Am.
gli Usa hanno proposto dei tagli alle emissioni che la Cina non ha voluto 
accettare. I giornali hanno titolato che � stato trovato un accordo ma di 
fatto, se leggi anche il testo degli articoli oltre che i titoli, si capisce 
che � stato un fallimento dato che non c'� stato nulla di sostanziale. La 
Cina ha affermato che bisogna essere contenti perch� � stato preservato il 
proprio interesse nazionale (!). Il G77 ha fatto la figura dell'idiota dato 
che prima si � fatto strumentalizzare dalla Cina per chiedere misure contro 
i cambiamenti climatici e poi la Cina ha fatto fallire tutto per evitare una 
riduzione delle emissioni.
Certo che sei un curioso sostenitore dei diritti all'autogoverno dei 
tibetani...

 gli Usa hanno proposto dei tagli alle emissioni
gli USA non hanno ancora firmato Kyoto, per cui sono i primi
responsabili del fallimento. Le chiacchiere stanno a zero

responsabili del fallimento. Le chiacchiere stanno a zero
mi pare che le posizioni di Obama sulle questioni ambientali siano fin 
troppo note per essere ignorate dalla Cina. Quindi, come dici giustamente, 
le chiacchiere stanno a zero. Del resto le dichiarazioni della Cina si 
commentano da se... 

 troppo note
le parole sì, i fatti no, visto che non ci sono

le parole s�, i fatti no, visto che non ci sono
mi mostrerai allora i fatti della Cina allora... 

 mi mostrerai allora i fatti della Cina allora...
#_I fatti della Cina si vedranno da qui al 2020! Ha promesso il 40% in meno 
di emissioni di CO2 rispetto il 2005...speriamo che, malgrado le liti, 
rispetti le promesse.
Dopotutto il saggio consiglio della Cina e`che ognuno faccia quel che puo`.
_La Cina e`stata portavoce di India , Africa e Brasile, che chiedono ai 
paesi che gia` emettono il doppio o triplo di CO2 procapite, di limitarlo.
Alla Cina, Africa e India non piaciono molto le imposizioni di chi a parole 
chiagne alle riunioni, ma in casa fotte.
_Spero che Gore si dia da fare di piu`in casa, per giustificare meglio il 
suo Nobel...(Dicono si sia ingrassato parecchio)...Non credo che Obama ne 
sia uscito disperato, perche`poi avrebbe avuto parecchie gatte da pelare per 
convincere un Congresso comandato dalle varie lobby e quest'ultime da 
elettori che sono il 20% della popolazione mondiale , ma consumano da soli 
l'80% dei beni mondiali, coi conseguenti problemi che ci riguardano tutti! 

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:hgseaf$5os$1...@nnrp-beta.newsland.it...

la Cina ha preteso di rappresentare un mondo che poi, quando le � convenuto, 
ha scaricato subito. Di questo gli 'altri' si sono accorti...vedremo gli 
sviluppi.... :-) 

 la Cina ha preteso di rappresentare...
#_Fatti, plz! ...Niente chiacchere col salumiere, s�ra Mirella!
 > Di questo gli 'altri' si sono accorti...vedremo gli sviluppi.... :-)
#_Se lei gli sta toccando il salame, OK!...vedra` gli sviluppi!..ma non ci 
racconti nulla eh! 

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:hh07vu$d0q$1...@nnrp-beta.newsland.it...

non ti rispondo come meriteresti perch� � Natale...