Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: Norman Finkelstein sputtana il propagandista dell'AIPAC

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/29/1420258
AIPAC v. Norman Finkelstein: A Debate on Israel's Assault on Gaza
AMY GOODMAN: As we continue our coverage, we're joined now by two
guests. Here in our Firehouse studio, Norman Finkelstein, Professor of
Political Science at DePaul University in Chicago. His latest book is
called Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of
History. And on the telephone, we're joined by Josh Block, Director of
Media Affairs for AIPAC -- that's the American Israel Public Affairs
Committee -- speaking to us on the line from Connecticut. Josh Block,
let's begin with you. Your response and the latest, the last thing
that Chris McGreal said, saying human rights groups, the Palestinian
leadership, Mahmoud Abbas talking about this as collective punishment
and a crime against humanity.
JOSH BLOCK: Well, clearly the concern is the reaction from those same
folks when it comes to the murder and kidnap of Israeli citizens. From
many perspective, American or otherwise, an attack inside Israel,
unprovoked, that resulted in the murder of two Israelis and not the
capture, Amy, but the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier is, in and of
itself, an act of war.
And clearly the Israelis tried for several days, 48 hours, 36 hours, of
intense diplomacy with the aid of the United States, the French -- and
I should add that this young man who has been kidnapped is also a
French citizen -- to secure the release from Hamas, the terrorist group
that has him. And by the way, in high irony, the government of the
Palestinian Authority, run by the same terrorist group, so a government
that's charged with fighting terrorism is itself a terrorist group
that's responsible for his kidnapping. So after 48 hours and 36 hours
of difficult and unproductive diplomacy, clearly the Israelis felt that
they needed to act in their own defense.
And I think the question is what is the reaction from these same human
rights groups when it comes to the condemnation of terrorism or other
acts? And clearly -- and I don't speak for the Israelis, but they must
have felt that this was an important thing to do to help isolate and
prevent the movement of this terrorist groups from moving the captive
or kidnapped Israeli soldier around the Gaza Strip.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Finkelstein?
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: I think it is useful to begin with what the human
rights groups have to say about this. Let's leave aside the background
for a moment and look narrowly at the incident that triggered the
Israeli invasion. Let's see what Hamas did not do, what the Palestinian
militants did not do. Number one, they did not liquidate the corporal,
which Israel routinely does, namely its political assassinations.
That's a war crime under international law. Israel routinely does that.
Hamas did not do that to the corporal.
Number two, they didn't kill the corporal while trying to arrest him.
Israel routinely does that. If you look at July 2005, B'Tselem, the
Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied
Territories, they put out a very hefty report entitled "Take No
Prisoners." And the report shows Israel routinely, during so-called
arrest operations, kills Palestinians, documents a case of a
Palestinian who was wounded, on the ground, no weapon. Israel killed
him. Hamas didn't do that to the corporal.
It said by this - by [inaudible], it said that they took him hostage,
they kidnapped him. Okay. Israel routinely takes Palestinians, Lebanese
hostage. In fact, Israel was the only country in the world, in 1997,
which legalized hostage-taking. The liberal head of the Israeli High
Court, Aharon Barak, he said it's legal, legitimate, under
international law to take what he called bargaining chips in order to
get prisoners, Israeli prisoners being held by the Lebanese. The
decision was reversed in 2000, but Israel continued to hold Lebanese
hostages until 2004. So, at worst, Hamas is being accused of what
Israel legalized and routinely does.
And finally, let's talk about those 9,000 Palestinians who are
effectively hostages being held by Israel. 1,000 of them are
administrative detainees.
AMY GOODMAN: You're talking about prisoners.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Yes. Administrative detainees who are being held
without any charges or trial. And the other 8,000 are being held after
military courts have convicted them, almost always on the basis of
confessions which were extracted by torture. So if we're going to look
simply at the numbers, we have one hostage on the Palestinian side, and
effectively we have about 9,000 on the Israeli side.
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to break, and then we'll get a response from
Josh Block of AIPAC. Dr. Norman Finkelstein is Professor at DePaul
University in Chicago.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: We're talking about the siege in Gaza. Our guests are Josh
Block, a spokesperson for AIPAC, which is the American Israel Public
Affairs Committee, speaking to us from Connecticut; and Professor
Norman Finkelstein, teaches political science at DePaul University in
Chicago, is in our Firehouse studio. Juan?
JUAN GONZALEZ: Josh Block, before break, Norman Finkelstein was talking
about the lack of proportionality in looking at the issue of prisoners
and hostages on both sides. Your response to that?
JOSH BLOCK: Well, I think the first thing that he said was that we
should ignore the context in which this attack took place, and I think
that's a major flaw with his commentary over time. I'm not surprised
to hear him talk about things in those terms, considering he's called
Hezbollah, which is the number one killer of Americans outside of
al-Qaeda, a heroic organization.
You know, ultimately, the question for Israel is, what is its
responsibility as a government? And any government, whether it's our or
theirs, has the duty to protect its citizens. Hamas and Hezbollah and
Islamic Jihad, other terrorists groups, have been conducting an
unremitting campaign of terrorism against Israeli citizens. Hamas is an
organization that fundamentally believes, deep in its core, that Israel
does not have the right to exist. When they talk about an occupation,
they're talking about Tel Aviv. That's why when this terrorist attack
took place, it took place not in the Gaza Strip or in the West Bank,
but inside Israel itself.
They infiltrated Israel, digging a tunnel from underneath a home into
the country of Israel, where they attacked soldiers who were not
engaged in an offensive operation against any Palestinian. They
murdered two of them, and they kidnapped one of them. And they're
holding him captive, hostage. That is an act of war. It's a
provocation. And it comes as a culmination of months and months of
terrorist attacks and rocket attacks against Israeli citizens, who were
not engaged in any offensive effort, who are simply going ahead and
living their lives. And that kind of terrorism is unacceptable, and
forces a response from any responsible government.
The Palestinian Authority has the responsibility to secure the release
of this individual, this soldier. And failing that, the international
community has to continue to put pressure on the Palestinian Authority
to fulfill those obligations. Again, Hamas is the government of the
Palestinian Authority, and it is sanctioning and conducting terrorism.
That's not an acceptable situation, and it cuts against the entire
grain of fundamental international conduct.
AMY GOODMAN: Norman Finkelstein, I'd like to you respond to that and
also the timing of this operation, coming hours after Fatah and Hamas
announced that they had agreed on a document that implicitly recognized
Israel within its 1967 borders.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, I want to first take note that Josh didn't
respond to any of my claims about Israel taking hostages, about 9,000
-
JOSH BLOCK: That's because they're ludicrous claims. They don't
merit a response.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: I respected your time, Josh. I respected your time.
Please do the same for me. He didn't respond to any of my claims about
Israel taking hostages, routinely killing Palestinians taken prisoner,
and so on and so forth.
So let's turn to the issue that Josh wants to address, namely the
context. I'm very happy to do so. Let's look at the context. Since
Israel withdrew from Gaza in September 2005 'til today, the estimates
run between 7,000 and 9,000 heavy artillery shells have been shot and
fired into Gaza. On the Palestinian side, the estimates are
approximately 1,000 Kassam missiles, crude missiles, have been fired
into Israel. So we have a ratio of between seven and nine to one.
Let's look at casualties. In the last six months, approximately 80
Palestinians have been killed in Gaza due to Israel artillery firing.
Now, on the Israeli side, we hear all of these terrible things about
these Kassams. Even Shlomo Ben-Ami, yesterday on your program, who I
respect, he said what's Israel to do about these Kassams? What does the
record show? I mentioned a moment ago, 80 Palestinians killed in six
months. There have been exactly eight Israelis killed in the last five
years from the Kassam missiles. Again, we have a huge disproportion, a
huge discrepancy.
Now, Josh says Israel has a responsibility to protect its citizens. I
totally agree with that. But Hamas is the elected government of the
Palestinians. They have a responsibility to protect their citizens.
They have a responsibility to get back their 9,000 hostages. They have
a responsibility to protect their Palestinian civilians, who are being
daily attacked by Israel. Josh says that the --
JOSH BLOCK: If I might, Amy, I'm ready to respond to that.
AMY GOODMAN: Josh Block of AIPAC.
JOSH BLOCK: Yeah, first of all, the folks that have been arrested for
participating in terrorist activity against innocent Israeli civilians
have been arrested for criminal activity. They were not kidnapped
because they were doing their responsible civic duty and no offensive
position against the Palestinians. In fact, those who, again, are in
Israeli jail are there for conducting terrorist activity. Among the
people that he mentions that have been killed, were killed because they
were participating in terrorist activity, shooting missiles, planning
terrorist attacks against Israel. Those folks were not innocent
civilians who were killed in suicide bus bombings or have had missiles
fall on their kindergartens. There's a moral equivalency that your
guest is drawing that is fundamentally out of proportion.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: May I ask Josh a question?
JOSH BLOCK: It's totally disproportionate and fundamentally incorrect.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: May I ask Josh -- I'd like to ask you a question,
Josh. 1,000 of those Palestinian prisoners being held by Israel,
according to B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, 1,000
of them are administrative detainees. That is, there have been no
charges leveled against them. How do you know what they're being held
for?
JOSH BLOCK: Fundamentally --
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: No, answer that question. There have been no
charges and no trials.
JOSH BLOCK: I'm about to, if you would give me a second to answer --
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: How do you know what they're being held for?
JOSH BLOCK: But instead you're trying to filibuster the question.
Fundamentally, the Israeli army and the Israeli government arrest
Palestinians who are engaged in terrorist activity. That's a proven
fact.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: No, I don't think that's a proven fact. It would be
a proven fact if there were court trials.
JOSH BLOCK: It is. It is a proven fact.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: How do you know what administrative detainees are
being held for? Israel doesn't say, so how do you know?
JOSH BLOCK: I fundamentally understand the facts, which clearly you do
not, which are that Israel takes fundamental legal action to arrest
individuals who are engaged in terrorist activity directed against its
citizens. There is no moral equivalency to be drawn between a country
acting in defense of its citizens and those engaging in terrorist
activity in an effort to stabilize and destroy that free and peaceful
society.
Look, Amy and Juan, as a Liberal Democrat who is a long-time listener
of this program, I fundamentally believe that the audience and you are
in a position to understand that liberal fundamental values, which are
celebrated in Israel -- freedom of the press, women's rights, gay
rights, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion -- are denied to those
living in Palestinian areas and throughout the rest of the Arab world.
There's an asymmetry that's involved in the Middle East, which is a
country of Israel that is based on fundamental free values, that is not
replicated in the Arab world, where education systems inculcate
children with hatred and teach them that martyrdom and death is
preferred over science and math and education.
And fundamentally, after Israel's disengagement from Gaza less than a
year ago, when the Palestinian people and the Authority that leads them
had the chance to build a better life for their citizens, they chose
not to do that. They destroyed the greenhouses, the economic
infrastructure that was provided. They then took the opportunity not to
fight terrorism and to provide security for their people and went the
other direction. That's why when these attacks take place through the
very arteries, the crossing points and the cargo points that benefit
the Palestinian people, Hamas is intentionally harming their own
society. That is the fundamental dynamic, none of the other
speciousness that we're hearing from our other guest today.
JUAN GONZALEZ: But, Josh Block, I'd like to ask you, on the targeted
assassinations that Israel has often participated, has often executed
in Palestinian territories, we hear repeatedly of innocent civilians.
Putting aside the fact whether the people who were targeted were
actually terrorists or not, because we have Israel's reporting that
they are, but the innocent civilians that are inevitably killed in
these missile attacks, how is that justified as not terrorism against a
civilian population?
JOSH BLOCK: You're absolutely right. Those incidents are deeply
regrettable. I think any one of us would say that. And I think any
American, any Israeli, would say that innocent people who are killed as
a result of a military action unintentionally, that's a tragedy. But
there's, again, a moral difference between an army -- Israel's military
goes to great lengths to prevent those kinds of incidents, and if you
look at the number of preventative attacks that Israel has carried out
with the number of those who have been incidentally and unfortunately
killed in those incidents, there's a tremendous preponderance of
occasions when, in fact, Israel has gone to great lengths not to harm
innocent civilians.
AMY GOODMAN: We just have a minute. We gave Josh Block the first word.
Professor Norman Finkelstein, the last.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, the question is whether or not there is a
significant difference between what Israel does and what the
Palestinians do, apart from the fact that Israel does it in a much
higher proportion than Palestinians. If you indiscriminately fire on a
civilian population, which Israel routinely does, under international
law -- and here I can quote the president of Tel Aviv University, Yoram
Dinstein, who's one of the leading international experts on these
matters; he says, "There's no difference whatsoever between
intentionally targeting civilians and indiscriminately firing into a
civilian crowd."
JOSH BLOCK: Fair enough.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: He says both of them are terrorism. So if Hamas --
JOSH BLOCK: If terrorist were attacking --
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: So if Hamas blows up a bus, as it used to do in Tel
Aviv, that's terrorism. If Hamas were to say, "We didn't intend to
kill the civilians. We intended to blow up the bus," people would
laugh. But if Israel drops --
JOSH BLOCK: If terrorists attack --
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Allow me to finish. Allow me to finish. If Israel
drops a one-ton bomb on a densely populated neighborhood in Gaza, as it
did in July 2002, and it said, "Oh, we didn't intend to kill the
civilians. We can just intended to kill a Palestinian terrorist --
JOSH BLOCK: And later apologized for the incident.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: It would be considered as preposterous as if Hamas
said "We only intended to blow up the bus."
JOSH BLOCK: I'm sorry. First of all, there has been no apology from
Hamas for those incidents. Israel apologizes when things like that
happen.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Israel didn't apologize. As a matter of fact, Ariel
Sharon hailed the bombing of Gaza City --
JOSH BLOCK: That's another specious lie.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: -- that time as one of the greatest acts in Israeli
history.
JOSH BLOCK: Again, a lie.
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to have to leave it there. I want to thank
you, Josh Block, for joining us, spokesperson for AIPAC, American
Israel Public Affairs Committee, in Connecticut; and Professor Norm
Finkelstein, here in New York, teaches at DePaul University in Chicago.
His book is called Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and
the Abuse of History.

merit a response.
Quoto :)
-Stefano