Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: Intervista ad Azmi Bishara

"They changed the rules again totally. .... They're accusing me of
doing things. It is totally different. It's actually -- they're
accusing me of security crimes that, according to the Israeli law,
it's very hard to clear yourself from, because it's their arena. They
can bring the evidence they want from unknown intelligence sources.
They can actually impose new things that you did not do and interpret
your relationships. For example, they can declare any friend you have
or any journalist you talk to in Lebanon or in Jordan or in Egypt as a
foreign agent. And this is so, according to Israeli law. Security
courts are very different from civil courts, although they are civil
courts formally. But the rules of the game are totally different in
there, because of the kind of evidence that convinces a court. So I
thought it's very mean, actually, the fact that instead of facing my
political and ideological work, that they referred to security tools
with which it's very, very hard to compete. It's very hard to
challenge."
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/04/1419201
As an outspoken supporter of Palestinian rights and Israel's most well-
known Arab member of parliament, Azmi Bishara is no stranger to
clashes with the Israeli government. Five years ago, Bishara was put
on trial for supporting terrorism for comments he made in public
speeches about the Lebanese group Hezbollah. One year later Israel's
election commission barred him for running in parliamentary elections
but later had the decision overturned.
Today, Azmi Bishara is facing his most serious challenge to date.
Israeli police have accused him of treason and espionage. The charges
reportedly center around Bishara's alleged contacts with members of
Hezbollah during Israel's attack on Lebanon last year. There are
reports Bishara's conservations were wiretapped. Bishara resigned his
position in the parliament and left Israel last month. Israeli police
say they'll arrest him if he returns. Bishara's resignation takes away
his parliamentary immunity from prosecution.
Today, Azmi Bishara joins us from Abu Dhabi. And here in the firehouse
studio we're joined by Yael Lerer. She is an Israeli Publisher who
worked as an aide to Azmi Bishara in 2000.
    * Azmi Bishara, former member of the Israeli Knesset. Resigned his
post last month after Israeli officials accused him of treason and
espionage. Speaking from Abu Dhabi.
    * Yael Lerer, Israeli Publisher with Andalus Publishing. She
worked as an aide to Azmi Bishara in 2000. She took part in an event
last night here in New York called An Evening of Solidarity with Dr.
Azmi Bisahra.
RUSH TRANSCRIPT
This transcript is available free of charge. However, donations help
us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our
TV broadcast. Thank you for your generous contribution.
Donate - $25, $50, $100, more...
JUAN GONZALEZ: As an outspoken supporter of Palestinian rights and
Israel's most well-known Arab member of parliament, Azmi Bishara is no
stranger to clashes with the Israeli government. Five years ago,
Bishara was put on trial for supporting terrorism for comments he made
in public speeches about the Lebanese group Hezbollah. One year later,
Israel's election commission barred him for running for parliament,
but later had the decision overturned.
Today, Azmi Bishara is facing his most serious challenge to date.
Israeli police have accused him of treason and espionage. The charges
reportedly center around Bishara's alleged contacts with members of
Hezbollah during Israel's attacks on Lebanon last year. There are
reports Bishara's conservations were wiretapped. Bishara resigned his
position in the parliament and left Israel last month. Israeli police
say they'll arrest him if he returns. Bishara's resignation takes away
his parliamentary immunity from prosecution.
He explained his decision to flee at a news conference last week in
Cairo.
      AZMI BISHARA: I decided not to wait and not to hide behind the
immunity and to do it myself according to my rules and not to wait
until they do it. So in order not to create an impression that I am
hiding behind my membership in the Knesset or my immunity, etc., I
resigned myself. And I also want to give an opportunity to my party to
work in the parliament with three members, not only with two.
AMY GOODMAN: That was former Arab member of the Israeli parliament,
Azmi Bishara, speaking last week in Cairo. Today, he joins us from Abu
Dhabi.
Can you talk, Azmi Bishara, about why you have left Israel, why you
resigned from the Knesset?
AZMI BISHARA: Well, both decisions have nothing to do actually with
the charges. I resigned from the Knesset because I wanted to -- like a
year ago, I felt already exhausted from parliamentary work -- eleven
years. This was a very, very intensive year, and I wanted to give more
time for my philosophy and literature writing on my books and also for
political work, but not in the parliament. It's a very exhausting
place to be. And I think my work was very intensive and very creative.
And the tools are there; everybody can use them. I think parties
should change their MKs or MPs every two or three times. I did that.
But I delayed, actually, the resignation, because of the charges, for
a month or two after I knew that they started an investigation.
And I left the country to attend two or three conferences abroad,
including an Al Jazeera commenting the Arab Summit. And then I heard
the kind of campaign which is run against me in the Israeli press and
the kind of plans, like hearing the Israeli intelligence commander --
previous intelligence commander saying on the TV that we have decided
to finish the phenomena of Azmi Bishara and all these things, and the
kind of, you know, totalitarian campaign without any dissent in the
Israeli press, orchestrated like the first weeks of wars, when
Israelis engage in wars, in the beginning of wars. So I thought I
should slow down a little bit and think.
They changed the rules again totally. Now they are not accusing me of
supporting the state of the citizens against the Zionist character of
the state, or they're not accusing me of saying things. They're
accusing me of doing things. It is totally different. It's actually --
they're accusing me of security crimes that, according to the Israeli
law, it's very hard to clear yourself from, because it's their arena.
They can bring the evidence they want from unknown intelligence
sources. They can actually impose new things that you did not do and
interpret your relationships. For example, they can declare any friend
you have or any journalist you talk to in Lebanon or in Jordan or in
Egypt as a foreign agent. And this is so, according to Israeli law.
Security courts are very different from civil courts, although they
are civil courts formally. But the rules of the game are totally
different in there, because of the kind of evidence that convinces a
court. So I thought it's very mean, actually, the fact that instead of
facing my political and ideological work, that they referred to
security tools with which it's very, very hard to compete. It's very
hard to challenge.
AMY GOODMAN: Azmi Bishara, we're going to break for a moment, and then
we're going to come back to you. We'll also be joined by your aide
when you were a Knesset member, Yael Lerer, an Israeli publisher.
She's here in New York. Azmi Bishara is joining us from Abu Dhabi.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: Right now, we are talking to Azmi Bishara, former member
of the Israeli Knesset, resigned his post last month after Israeli
officials accused him of treason and espionage. He is speaking to us
now from Abu Dhabi. They say they'll arrest him if he comes back into
Israel. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. This is Democracy Now!
Juan?
JUAN GONZALEZ: Yes. Azmi Bishara, you, in a recent Op-Ed piece in the
Los Angeles Times, compared your situation to the Dreyfus Affair of a
French Jew who was accused of treason. Could you explain why you made
that comparison?
AZMI BISHARA: Well, it's actually [inaudible], because it's closer to
the, let me say, Israeli mythology to understand, or even Jewish
mythology, because at times of defeat, France looked to a scapegoat to
blame, and the easiest thing to blame was somebody from the minority,
and it was the easiest thing to make a diversion of national
frustration against the government because of a defeat in a war
against Germany. They picked up an officer -- of course, I'm not an
officer, and I'm not trying to be Israeli, like Dreyfus was trying to
be loyal French. I am a Palestinian, that I consider myself a native
that is -- whose identity is Arab Palestinian.
But the similarity is in the timing and the fact that the media unites
in such an orchestrated campaign against a scapegoat. There is a very
clear national frustration in Israel. Their political program of
disengagement in the West Bank and Gaza failed. Their military against
Hezbollah actually failed. And the whole morale, the whole mood of the
country is very low and bitter. And so, let me say, the public opinion
industry was to divert the attention towards somebody to blame. That's
why I used it.
But actually the Israeli security started working against my case a
few years ago -- against me a few years ago, because they could not
cope with the fact that there is an Arab Palestinian who is trying to
take away the democratic liberal discourse from their hand and use it
against them. They're not used to this fact, that there is an Arab
national, Palestinian national, who is using a democratic discourse of
citizenship and liberalism, etc. They started working a few years ago
before the timing of the war. I referred actually to the media and
politicians' timing, which has to do with their need to divert
attention into my direction.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Your decision to leave the country, could you tell us
whether you're intending to return to Israel and face these charges,
or will you plan to stay in exile outside the country?
AZMI BISHARA: Well, we're consulting things really. Usually people who
are accused of these things in the third world and leaders of national
movements in the third world do not capitulate this way. They do not
give themselves to be charged. The problem is the process that they
want to conduct in Israel. They want to conduct a process in which
people in the United States or Europe, liberals and democrats, can see
that, you know, there are no Arab democrats who are for citizenship
and democracy; actually, all of them are collaborators who give
information, actually inform us of terrorist movements, especially
Islamist, etc.; don't believe an Arab if he comes and says he's a
democrat or he's a secular or he's for equality, etc. And they have
their evidence, which is their interpretation of all kinds of personal
relationships and friendships that they will have me justifying them
there like a small suspect, not like a leader or intellectual, etc.
This kind of arena that they will create, we think -- me and my
lawyers and everybody there thinks that it won't be, it can't play to
our benefit, because it's their arena and their discourse, and I will
have to play from within their discourse. Now, in the past I've played
from within the democratic liberal discourse, but to play from within
the security discourse, it's very, very hard for a Palestinian inside
Israel.
The other message they want to send is to actually intimidate the
Arabs in Israel by these charges and by the result of the court, that
this way leads to this result. So actually what we wanted to avoid is
this kind of the rules of the game. Usually we are not dragged to the
rules of the game that they set, and we try ours. So what we are doing
now is staying outside and thinking what to do until the media
campaign calms down, winds down, and then we can think what we will do
and how and what are the terms of my return.
Of course, exile is not an option for me at all. I usually -- I lived
inside Israel in the hardest conditions. I did not leave the country.
I already stood in two courts and with success. But this time I know
very well. I think the Israelis themselves know, and they say it
actually, that this time when they go to this corner, to this arena of
security charges, it's very hard for them to lose it. They prepare the
files this way with intelligence secret reports that you cannot
challenge. You cannot challenge their sources of information. I'm very
sorry that they went this far, because they lost the political and
ideological campaign. They themselves have said some months ago that
my political ideas are so hegemolian now in the Arab political street
and they spread so much that they can't fight them except by using the
Shabak, which is the Israeli secret police.
AMY GOODMAN: Azmi Bishara, we're joined by Yael Lerer, your former
aide. There was an evening in solidarity with you last night at New
York University. Yael Lerer is an Israeli publisher. Your response to
the Israeli charges, you, an Israeli Jewish citizen?
YAEL LERER: I mean, I think Azmi Bishara was very accurate when he was
pointing on the fact that when it's security charges, all the game is
completely different. And we know, we are familiar with these cases.
When somebody, when the General Security Service decides to put
someone on trial, nothing will help this person, because it's very
easy to fabricate cases. Most, I think, of the security cases in
Israel are fabricated, and people just sit in the court, and always
when there is a security accusation, you are arrested. I mean, if Azmi
Bishara was not a member of the Knesset, he was arrested before the
investigation had started. And this is very important. And I think to
be now away for a while, it's a very right decision. Like Azmi pointed
out, I think, myself, that his work in the Knesset was very important.
He was showing us what is citizenship about. I think it was very
important lesson for all the citizens of Israel, Jewish and Arab
alike. But when the government is so strong against him, I think the
right thing now is to be away. I just want to point a small thing --
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to have to leave it there. Yael Lerer, I want
to thank you very much for joining us, Israeli publisher, former aide
to Azmi Bishara. Last night, an evening of solidarity with Dr. Azmi
Bishara took place at New York University. Azmi Bishara, thank you for
joining us. We'll certainly continue to follow this case. Azmi
Bishara, the former member of the Israeli Knesset, joining us from Abu
Dhabi. Israel says if he returns, they will arrest him.

 doing things. It is totally different. 
Infatti. Completamente diverso dalle fantasiose cazzate sulla persecuzione delle 
  "opinioni" di Bishara. Opinioni che ha sempre liberissimamente esercitato.
Certo, segnalare i bersagli ai razzi di Hezbollah è una cosa diversa.
Di questo si parla (pare nastri alla mano). E di fronte a queste accuse il 
"liberal" preferito da Torrieri si è dato alla fuga, diventando latitante.
Io comunque credo assolutamente a Bishara, e lo invito a presentarsi in 
tribunale. Una volta che si sarà scoperto che i nastri non esistono, o non 
provano nulla, Bishara tornerà da trionfatore in Galilea.
E guadagnerà qualcosa di più di quel pugno di voti che è sempre riuscito a 
strappare con le sue posizioni di estremista rabbioso e rincoglionito, 
sostenitore e propagandista dei nemici del suo paese.
Tb
-- 
רפוה שלמה לחולה פרנץ בן יוסף וחנה

 tribunale.
I tuoi esuli Ungheresi, ricercati nel 1957 per aver preso soldi dalla
CIA, si sono presentati in tribunale o hanno continuato l'esilio?
GT

 si sono presentati in tribunale o hanno continuato l'esilio
Molti sono semplicemente desaparecidi, altri (parliamo di membri del governo) 
sono stati sepolti in una fossa comune senza contrassegni, insieme alle carcasse 
agli animali dello zoo,  dopo essere stati arrestati dai sovietici durante 
trattative tra *stati sovrani*, e successivamente impiccati in Romania.
Questo a proposito di garantismo e bastioni democratici, scioccherello brezneviano.


 
*LOL*
-Stefano

 Tb
GT

 E i Tonibaruch di cui allora disponeva l'URSS 
Ti vedo in affanno a reggere quel catino di merda.


Ma sarà così scemo per davvero o un po' ci fa?
E' terribilmente stizzito..IMHO sotto sotto ti ama.
MMAX
-- 
http://bloggoanchio.splinder.com