Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement

Peccato che il database sia scritto in ebraico, dovremo aspettare la sua
traduzione.
La colonizzazione dei Territori, iniziata dopo la guerra del '67,
nonostante sia stata oggetto di ripetute risoluzioni contrarie dell'ONU,
nonostante venga universalmente riconosciuta come attività illegale,
dura ormai da 40 anni senza interruzioni.
E' una attività che ha continuato a svolgersi sotto governi di qualsiasi
composizione e colore, anche guidati da certi premi Nobel per la Pace, e
che ha progressivamente eroso con soprusi, raggiri, violenze i territori
dove vivevano da sempre i palestinesi.
Eppure questo fatto di enorme rilevanza riguardo allo stato dei rapporti 
tra Israele e palestinesi e alla determinazione della effettiva volontà 
della leadership israeliana di raggiungere un accordo di pace è stato di 
fatto oscurato nel corso di decenni.
Per ottenere questo scopo è stato necessaria una gigantesca operazione 
di sviamento mediatico a tutti i livelli e in tutto il mondo.
Sarebbe interessante analizzare quali sistemi e quali strutture 
organizzative hanno consentito di ottenere questo scopo.
----------------------
Da Haaretz.
Last update - 09:37 30/01/2009  	 	 	
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement
By Uri Blau
Tags: West Bank, Settlements
Just four years ago, the defense establishment decided to carry out a
seemingly elementary task: establish a comprehensive database on the
settlements. Brigadier General (res.) Baruch Spiegel, aide to then
defense minister Shaul Mofaz, was put in charge of the project. For over
two years, Spiegel and his staff, who all signed a special
confidentiality agreement, went about systematically collecting data,
primarily from the Civil Administration.
One of the main reasons for this effort was the need to have credible
and accessible information at the ready to contend with legal actions
brought by Palestinian residents, human rights organizations and leftist
movements challenging the legality of construction in the settlements
and the use of private lands to establish or expand them. The
painstakingly amassed data was labeled political dynamite.
The defense establishment, led by Defense Minister Ehud Barak,
steadfastly refused to publicize the figures, arguing, for one thing,
that publication could endanger state security or harm Israel's foreign
relations. Someone who is liable to be particularly interested in the
data collected by Spiegel is George Mitchell, President Barack Obama's
special envoy to the Middle East, who came to Israel this week for his
first visit since his appointment. It was Mitchell who authored the 2001
report that led to the formulation of the road map, which established a
parallel between halting terror and halting construction in the settlements.
The official database, the most comprehensive one of its kind ever
compiled in Israel about the territories, was recently obtained by
Haaretz. Here, for the first time, information the state has been hiding
for years is revealed. An analysis of the data reveals that, in the vast
majority of the settlements - about 75 percent - construction, sometimes
on a large scale, has been carried out without the appropriate permits
or contrary to the permits that were issued. The database also shows
that, in more than 30 settlements, extensive construction of buildings
and infrastructure (roads, schools, synagogues, yeshivas and even police
stations) has been carried out on private lands belonging to Palestinian
West Bank residents.
The data, it should be stressed, do not refer only to the illegal
outposts (information about which was included in the well-known report
authored by attorney Talia Sasson and published in March 2005), but to
the very heart of the settlement enterprise. Among them are veteran
ideological settlements like Alon Shvut (established in 1970 and
currently home to 3,291 residents, including Rabbi Yoel Bin Nun); Ofra
(established in 1975, home to 2,708 residents, including
former Yesha Council spokesman Yehoshua Mor Yosef and media
personalities Uri Elitzur and Hagai Segal); and Beit El (established in
1977, population 5,308, including Hagai Ben-Artzi, brother of Sara
Netanyahu). Also included are large settlements founded primarily for
economic motives, such as the city of Modi'in Illit (established in 1990
and now home to 36,282 people), or Givat Ze'ev outside Jerusalem
(founded in 1983, population 11,139), and smaller settlements such as
Nokdim near Herodion (established in 1982, population 851, including MK
Avigdor Lieberman).
The information contained in the database does not conform to the
state's official position, as presented, for instance, on the Foreign
Ministry Web site, which states: "Israel's actions relating to the use
and allocation of land under its administration are all taken with
strict regard to the rules and norms of international law - Israel does
not requisition private land for the establishment of settlements."
Since in many of the settlements, it was the government itself,
primarily through the Ministry of Construction and Housing, that was
responsible for construction, and since many of the building violations
involve infrastructure, roads, public buildings and so on, the official
data also demonstrate government responsibility for the unrestrained
planning and lack of enforcement of regulations in the territories. The
extent of building violations also attests to the poor functioning of
the Civil Administration, the body in charge of permits and supervision
of construction in the territories.
According to the 2008 data from the Central Bureau of Statistics,
approximately 290,000 Jews live in the 120 official settlements and
dozens of outposts established throughout the West Bank over the past 41
years.
"Nothing was done in hiding," says Pinchas Wallerstein, director-general
of the Yesha Council of settlements and a leading figure in the
settlement project. "I'm not familiar with any [building] plans that
were not the initiative of the Israeli government." He says that if the
owners of private land upon which settlements are built were to complain
and the court were to accept their complaint, then the structures would
have to be moved somewhere else. "This has been the Yesha
Council's position for the past years," he says.
You'd never know it from touring several of the settlements in which
massive construction has taken place on private Palestinian lands.
Entire neighborhoods built without permits or on private lands are
inseparable parts of the settlements. The sense of dissonance only
intensifies when you find that municipal offices, police and fire
stations were also built upon and currently operate on lands that belong
to Palestinians.
On Misheknot Haro'im Street in the Kochav Yaakov settlement, a young
mother is carrying her two children home. "I've lived here for six
years," she says, sounding surprised when told that her entire
neighborhood was built upon private Palestinian land. "I know that
there's some small area in the community that is in dispute, but I never
heard that this is private land." Would she have built her home on this
land had she known this from the start? "No," she answers. "I wouldn't
have kicked anyone out of his home."
Not far away, at the settlement's large and unkempt trailer site, which
is also built on private land, a young newlywed couple is walking to the
bus stop: 21-year-old Aharon and his 19-year-old wife, Elisheva. They
speak nearly perfect Hebrew despite having grown up in the United States
and having settled permanently in Israel just a few months ago, after
Aharon completed his army service in the ultra-Orthodox Nahal unit. Now
he is studying computers at Machon Lev in Jerusalem. Asked why they
chose to live here of all places, they list three reasons: It's close to
Jerusalem, it's cheap and it's in the territories. In that order.
The couple pay their rent, NIS 550 a month, to the settlement
secretariat. As new immigrants, they are still exempt from having to pay
the arnona municipal tax. Aharon doesn't look upset when he hears that
his trailer sits on private land. It doesn't really interest him. "I
don't care what the state says, the Torah says that the entire Land of
Israel is ours." And what will happen if they're told to move to
non-private land? "We'll move," he says without hesitation.
A complicated problem
Even today, more than two years after concluding his official role,
Baruch Spiegel remains loyal to the establishment. In a conversation, he
notes several times that he signed a confidentiality agreement and so is
not willing to go into the details of the work for which he was
responsible. He was appointed by Shaul Mofaz to handle several issues
about which Israel had given a commitment to the United States,
including improving conditions for Palestinians whose lives were
adversely affected by the separation fence, and supervision of IDF
soldiers at the checkpoints.
Two years ago, Haaretz reporter Amos Harel revealed that the main task
given Spiegel was to establish and maintain an up-to-date database on
the settlement enterprise. This was after it became apparent that the
United States, as well as Peace Now's settlement monitoring team, was in
possession of much more precise information about settlement
construction than was the defense establishment, which up to then had
relied mostly on information collected by Civil Administration
inspectors. The old database had many gaps in it, which was largely a
consequence of the establishment preferring not to know exactly what was
going on in this area.
Spiegel's database contains written information backed up by aerial
photos and layers of GIS (Geographic Information Systems) data that
includes information on the status of the land and the official
boundaries of each settlement. "The work took two and a half years,"
says Spiegel. "It was done in order to check the status of the
settlements and the outposts and to achieve the greatest possible
accuracy in terms of the database: the land status, the legal status,
the sector boundaries, the city building plan, government decisions,
lands whose ownership is unclear. It was full-time, professional work
done with a professional team of legal experts, planning people, GIS
experts. And I hope that this work continues, because it
is very vital. One has to know what's going on there and make decisions
accordingly."
Who is keeping track of all of this now?
"I suppose it's the Civil Administration."
Why was there no database like this before your appointment?
"I don't know how much of a focus there was on doing it."
Why do you think the state is not publicizing the data?
"It's a sensitive and complex subject and there are all kinds of
considerations, political and security-related. There were questions
about the public's right to know, the freedom of information law. You
should ask the officials in charge."
What are the sensitive matters?
"It's no secret that there are violations, that there are problems
having to do with land. It's a complicated problem."
Is there also a problem for the country's image?
"I didn't concern myself with image. I was engaged in Sisyphean work to
ensure that, first of all, they'll know what exists and what's legal and
what's not legal and what the degree of illegality is, whether it
involves the takeover of private Palestinian land or something in the
process of obtaining proper building permits. Our job was to do the
meticulous work of going over all the settlements and outposts that
existed then - We found what we found and passed it on."
Do you think that this information should be published?
"I think they've already decided to publish the simpler part, concerning
areas of jurisdiction. There are things that are more sensitive. It's no
secret that there are problems, and it's impossible to do something
illegal and say that it's legal. I can't elaborate, because I'm still
bound to maintain confidentiality."
Dror Etkes, formerly the coordinator of Peace Now's settlement
monitoring project and currently director of the Land Advocacy Project
for the Yesh Din organization, says, "The government's ongoing refusal
to reveal this material on the pretext of security reasons is yet
another striking example of the way in which the state exploits its
authority to reduce the information at the citizens' disposal, when they
wish to formulate intelligent positions based on facts rather than lies
and half-truths."
Following the initial exposure of the material, the Movement for Freedom
of Information and Peace Now requested that the Defense Ministry publish
the database, in accordance with the Freedom of Information law. The
Defense Ministry refused. "This is a computerized database that includes
detailed information, in different cross-sections, regarding the Jewish
settlements in Judea and Samaria," the Defense Ministry said in
response. "The material was collected by the defense establishment for
its purposes and includes sensitive information. The ministry was asked
to allow a review of the material in accordance with the Freedom of
Information law, and after consideration of the request, decided not to
hand over the material. The matter is pending and is the subject of a
petition before the Administrative Affairs Court in Tel Aviv."
Ofra, Elon Moreh, Beit El
The database surveys settlement after settlement alphabetically. For
each entry, it notes the source of the settlement's name and the form of
settlement there (urban community, local council, moshav, kibbutz,
etc.); its organizational affiliation (Herut, Amana, Takam, etc.), the
number of inhabitants, pertinent government decisions, the official
bodies to which the land was given, the status of the land upon which
the settlement was built (state land, private Palestinian or Jewish
land, etc.), a survey of the illegal outposts built in proximity to the
settlement and to what extent the valid building plans have been
executed. Beneath each entry, highlighted in red, is information on the
extent of construction that has been carried out without permission and
its exact location in the settlement.
Among all the revelations in the official data, it's quite fascinating
to see what was written about Ofra, a veteran Gush Emunim settlement.
According to a recent B'tselem report, most of the settlement's
developed area sits on private Palestinian land and therefore falls into
the category of an illegal outpost that is supposed to be evacuated. The
Yesha Council responded to the B'tselem report, saying that the "facts"
in it are "completely baseless and designed to present a false picture.
The inhabitants of Ofra are careful to respect the rights of the Arab
landowners, with whom they reached an agreement regarding the
construction of the neighborhoods as well as an agreement that enables
the private landowners to continue to work their lands."
But the information in the database about Ofra leaves no room for doubt:
"The settlement does not conform to valid building plans. A majority of
the construction in the community is on registered private lands without
any legal basis whatsoever and no possibility of [converting the land to
non-private use]." The database also gives a detailed description of
where construction was carried out in Ofra without permits: "The
original part of the settlement: [this includes] more than 200 permanent
residential structures, agricultural structures, public structures,
lots, roads and orchards in the old section of the settlement (in regard
to which Plan 221 was submitted, but not advanced due to a problem of
ownership)." After mentioning 75 trailers and temporary shelters in two
groups within the old settlement, the database mentions the Ramat Zvi
neighborhood, south of the original settlement: "There are about 200
permanent structures as well as lots being developed for additional
permanent construction, all trespassing on private lands." Yesha Council
chairman Danny Dayan responds: "I am not familiar with that data."
Another place where the data reveals illegal construction is Elon Moreh,
one of the most famous settlements in the territories. In June 1979,
several residents of the village of Rujib, southeast of Nablus,
petitioned the High Court, asking it to annul the appropriation order
for 5,000 dunams of land in their possession, that had been designated
for the construction of the settlement. In court, the government argued,
as it did regularly at the time, that the construction of the settlement
was required for military needs, and therefore the appropriation orders
were legal. But in a statement on behalf of the petitioners, former
chief of staff Haim Bar-Lev asserted that, "In my best professional
judgment, Elon Moreh does not contribute to Israel's security."
The High Court, relying on this statement and the statements of the
original core group of settlers of Elon Moreh, who also argued that this
was not a temporary settlement established for security purposes, but a
permanent settlement, instructed the IDF to evacuate the settlement and
return the lands to their owners. The immediate consequence of the
ruling was to find an alternative site for construction of the
settlement, on lands previously defined as "state lands." Following this
ruling, Israel stopped officially using military injunctions in the
territories for the purpose of establishing new settlements.
The lands that were originally taken for the purpose of building Elon
Moreh were returned to their Palestinian owners, but according to the
database, also in the new site where the settlement was built, called
Har Kabir, "most of the construction was done without approved, detailed
plans, and some of the construction involved trespassing on private
lands. As for the state lands in the settlement, a detailed plan, no.
107/1, was prepared and published on 16/7/99, but has yet to go into
effect."
The Shomron regional council, which includes Elon Moreh, said in
response: "All the neighborhoods in the settlement were planned, and
some were also built, by the State of Israel through the Housing
Ministry. The residents of Elon Moreh did not trespass at all and any
allegation of this kind is also false. The State of Israel is tasked
with promoting and approving the building plans in the settlement, as
everywhere else in the country, and as for the plans that supposedly
have yet to receive final validity, just like many other communities
throughout Israel, where the processes continue for decades, this does
not delay the plans, even if the planning is not complete or being done
in tandem."
Beit El, another veteran settlement, was also, according to the
database, established "on private lands seized for military purposes (In
fact, the settlement was expanded on private lands, by means of
trespassing in the northern section of the settlement) and on state
lands that were appropriated during the Jordanian period (the Maoz Tzur
neighborhood in the south of the settlement)."
According to the official data, construction in Beit El in the absence
of approved plans includes the council office buildings and the
"northern neighborhood (Beit El Bet) that was built for the most part on
private lands. The neighborhood comprises widespread construction,
public buildings and new ring roads (about 80 permanent buildings and
trailers); the northeastern neighborhood (between Jabal Artis and the
old part of the settlement) includes about 20 permanent residential
buildings, public buildings (including a school building), 40 trailers
and an industrial zone (10 industrial buildings). The entire compound is
located on private land and has no plan attached."
Moshe Rosenbaum, head of the Beit El local council, responds:
"Unfortunately, you are cooperating with the worst of Israel's enemies
and causing tremendous damage to the whole country."
'One giant bluff'
Ron Nahman, mayor of Ariel, was re-elected to a sixth term in the last
elections. Nahman is a long-time resident of the territories and runs a
fascinating heterogeneous city. Between a visit to the trailer site
where evacuees from Netzarim are housed and a stop at a shop that sells
pork and other non-kosher products, mostly to the city's large Russian
population, Nahman complains about the halting of construction in his
city and about his battles with the Civil
Administration over every building permit.
Ariel College, Nahman's pride and joy, is also mentioned in the
database: "The area upon which Ariel College was built was not regulated
in terms of planning." It further explains that the institution sits on
two separate plots and the new plan has not yet been discussed. Nahman
confirms this, but says the planning issue was recently resolved.
When told that dozens of settlements include construction on private
lands, he is not surprised. "That's possible," he says. The fact that in
three-quarters of the settlements, there has been construction that
deviates from the approved plans doesn't surprise him either. "All the
complaints should be directed at the government, not at us," he says.
"As for the small and communal settlements, they were planned by the
Housing Ministry's Rural Building Administration. The larger communities
are planned by the ministry's district offices. It's all the government.
Sometimes the Housing Ministry is responsible for budgetary
construction, which is construction out of the state budget. In the
Build Your Own Home program, the state pays a share of the development
costs and the rest is paid for by the individual. All of these things
are one giant bluff. Am I the one who planned the settlements? It was
Sharon, Peres, Rabin, Golda, Dayan."
The database provides information attesting to a failure to adhere to
planning guidelines in the territories. For example, an attempt to
determine the status of the land of the Argaman settlement in the Jordan
Rift Valley found that "the community was apparently established on the
basis of an appropriation order from 1968 that was not located." About
Mevo Horon, the database says: "The settlement was built without a
government decision on lands that are mostly private within a closed
area in the Latrun enclave (Area Yod). There was an allocation
for the area to the WZO from 1995, which was issued as in a deviation
from authority, apparently on the basis of a political directive." In
the Tekoa settlement, trailers were leased to the IDF "and installed
contrary to the area's designation according to a detailed plan? and
some also deviate from the boundaries of the plan."
Most of the territories of the West Bank have not been annexed to
Israel, and therefore regulations for the establishment and construction
of communities there differ from those that apply within Israel proper.
The Sasson report, which dealt with the illegal outposts, was based in
part on data collected by Spiegel, and listed the criteria necessary for
the establishment of a new settlement in the territories:
1. The Israeli government issued a decision to establish the settlement
2. The settlement has a defined jurisdictional area
3. The settlement has a detailed, approved outline plan
4. The settlement lies on state land or on land that was purchased by
Israelis and registered under their name in the Land Registry.
According to the database, the state gave the World Zionist Organization
(WZO) and/or the Construction and Housing Ministry authorization to plan
and build on most of the territories upon which the settlements were
constructed. These bodies allocated the land to those who eventually
carried out the actual construction of the settlement: Sometimes it was
the Settlement Division of the WZO and other times it was the
Construction and Housing Ministry itself, sometimes through the Rural
Building Administration. In several cases, settlements were built by
Amana, the Gush Emunim settlement arm. Another body cited in the
database as having received allocations and being responsible for
construction in some of the settlements is Gush Emunim's Settler
National Fund.
Talmud Torah
@Text: Regular schools and religious schools (Talmudei Torah) have also
been built on Palestinian lands. According to the database, in the
southern part of the Ateret settlement, "15 structures were built
outside of state lands, which are used for the Kinor David yeshiva.
There are also new ring roads and a special security area that is
illegal." Kinor David is the name of a "yeshiva high school with a
musical framework." The sign at the entrance says the yeshiva was built
by the Amana settlement movement, the Mateh Binyamin local council and the
WZO settlement division.
The data regarding Michmash also make it very clear that part of the
settlement was built on "private lands via trespassing." For example,
"In the center of the settlement (near the main entrance) is a trailer
neighborhood that serves as a Talmud Torah and other buildings (30
trailers) on private land."
On a winter's afternoon, a bunch of young children were playing there,
one of them wearing a shirt printed with the words "We won't forget and
we won't
forgive." There were no teachers in sight. A young woman in slacks,
taking her baby to the doctor, stopped for a moment to chat. She moved
here from Ashkelon because her husband's parents are among the
settlement's founders. When her son is old enough for preschool, she
won't send him to the Talmud Torah. Not because it sits on private land,
but just because that's not the type of education she wants for him. "I
don't think there's been construction on private land here," she said.
"I don't think there ought to be, either."
In the Psagot settlement, where there has also been a lot of
construction on private land, it's easy to discern the terracing style
typical of Palestinian agriculture in the region. According to the
database, in Psagot there are "agricultural structures (a winery and
storehouses) to the east of the settlement, close to the grapevines
cultivated by the settlement by trespassing." During a visit here, the
winery was abandoned. Its owner, Yaakov Berg, acquired land from the
Israel Lands Administration near the Migron outpost and a new winery and
regional visitors' center is currently under construction there.
"The vineyards are located in Psagot," says Berg, who is busy with the
preparations for the new site. From the unfinished observation deck one
can see an enormous quarry in the mountains across the way. "If I built
a bathroom here without permission from the Civil Administration, within
15 minutes, a helicopter would be here and I'd be told that it was
prohibited," Berg complains. "And right here there's an illegal
Palestinian quarry that continues to operate."
The politicians did it
Kobi Bleich, spokesperson for the Ministry of Construction and Housing:
"The ministry participates in subsidizing the development costs of
settlements in Priority Area A, in accordance with decisions of the
Israeli government. Development works are carried out by the regional
councils, and only after the ministry has ascertained that the new
neighborhood is located within an approved city plan. This applies
throughout Israel as well as in the areas over the Green Line. Let me
emphasize that the ministry's employees are charged with implementing
the policies of the Israeli government. All of the actions in the past were
done solely in keeping with the decisions of the political echelon."
Danny Poleg, spokesperson for the Judea and Samaria district of the
Israel Police: "The issue of the construction of police facilities is
the responsibility of the Ministry of Internal Security, so any
questions should be addressed to them."
The Internal Security Ministry spokesman responds: "And for construction
by the police is allocated by the Israel Lands Administration in
coordination with the Internal Security Ministry. There is no police
station in Modi'in Ilit, but a rapid response post for the local
residents on land allocated by the local authority. The land in Givat
Ze'ev was allocated by the local council and the police station is
located within the municipality. The road to the police headquarters was
built by the Housing and Construction ministry and is maintained by the
local council."
Avi Roeh, head of the Mateh Binyamin regional council (whose
jurisdiction includes the settlements of Ofra, Kochav Yaakov, Ateret,
Ma'aleh Michmash and Psagot): "The Mateh Binyamin regional council, like
the neighboring councils in Judea and Samaria, is coping with political
decisions regarding the manner of the the communities' expansion.
However, this does not remove the need for proper planning procedures in
order to expand the settlements in an orderly manner and in accordance
with the law."
For its response, the WZO sent a thick booklet, a copy of which was
previously sent to attorney Talia Sasson in response to her report.
"Settlement in Judea and Samaria, as in Israel, has been accompanied by
the preparation of regional master plans," says the booklet. "Steering
committees from various government ministries, the Civil Administration
and the municipal authorities were involved in the preparation of these
plans? The (settlement) department worked solely on lands that were
given to it by contract from the authorities in the Civil Administration
and all the lands that were allocated to it by contract were properly
allocated."
The Civil Administration, which was first asked for a response regarding
the database more than a month ago, has yet to reply

 di sviamento mediatico a tutti i livelli e in tutto il mondo.
Task: portare argomenti a sostegno dell'autorevole ipotesi secondo la 
quale Persio è un pirla.
Tb

 La colonizzazione dei Territori, iniziata dopo la guerra del '67
Ben detto.
Ora ci si chieda come mai, dal '48 al '67, Gaza e Cisgiordania, rispettivamete
sotto controllo egiziano e giordano, non siano stati affidati al diretto
controllo palestinese, consentendo la nascita del loro stato.

 controllo palestinese, consentendo la nascita del loro stato.
OK, ma che c'entra con la colonizzazione?


il benaltrismo, malattia infantile del postcomunismo.

 organizzative hanno consentito di ottenere questo scopo.
Prescindendo da ogni considerazione politica e morale e dal fatto che 
l'accusa di aver costruito nei territori è stata invece costante e senza 
sosta, trovo questa perla un capolavoro: il pirla interpreta qui il 
paradosso dell'antisionismo militante: le dimensioni fisiche della cosa si 
riducono alla costruzione, per quanto illecita, politicamente sbagliata, 
arrogante e stupida,  di due condomini due in qualche chilometro quadrato. 
Sarà mica che il crollo dell'impero sovietico,  l'esplosione del capitalismo 
autoritario in Cina,  il collasso economico dell'america, siano fenomeni 
mediatici nati per oscurare la selvaggia espansione immobiliare israeliana?
Sarebbe da ridere, se non fosse davvero un paradigma della segatura che 
hanno in testa questi patetici minchioni.
rosalucsemburg

 whiplash wrote:


whiplash doveva fare il suo classico intervento da servetto dei fascisti
del likud come pinter e zanardo. 
-- 
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Il Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:46:58 +0100, yossarian scrisse:

Difficile colonizzare un territorio sul cui suolo esiste già
uno stato arabo-palestinese, no?

 uno stato arabo-palestinese, no?
La Cisgiordania non era stata ufficialmente annessa alla Giordania?
P.S. Buono il kebab? :)

 il benaltrismo, malattia infantile del postcomunismo.
Non c'è nessun "ben altro", giovannino.
E' solo una replica al cretino passato in write-only mode.

yossarian ha scritto:

Magico. Avvolto su stecchi di cannella... yum.
Tb

 P.S. Buono il kebab?
Ottimo.

 Sì, alla Transgiordania, precisamente, che divenne Giordania, da quel momento.
Quindi non è vero che la colonizzazione è avvenuta perchè la
Cisgiordania era una sorta di "terra di nessuno": nel 1967 era diventata
parte integrante della Giordania, ma la colonizzazione è avvenuta
ugualmente.
Y.

yossarian ha scritto:

Dal 1967 è diventata un territorio occupato, legalmente avrebbe anche
potuto essere annessa.
Il problema israeliano è di non avere avuto una politica rettilinea. Per
un po' hanno lavorato per annetterla, ad un certo punto hanno deciso che
era meglio di no ma non sapevano più bene cosa farne. Poi tutto è
diventato una questione di sicurezza, nel quale si è sfogato
l'integralismo del movimento dei coloni, tantopiù procedeva il processo
di "pace".
Quella della colonizzazione (una storia variegata con delle volontà
piuttosto diverse e complesse alle spalle) è un grosso problema, che
diventerebbe molto più grosso il giorno che ci fosse una controparte che
ha una reale volontà e capacità di amministrare per sé quel territorio.
Per adesso non c'è. E questo libera Israele dalla necessità di fare i
conti con quello che IMHO è anche un grande errore strategico.
Tb

 ugualmente.
Niet.
La Cisgiordania fu occupata ed annessa alla allora Transgiordania a seguito
del conflitto del 1948 e rimase parte della Giordania fino alla guerra dei 
sei giorni del 1967, durante la quale Israele occupò la Cisgiordania e 
Gerusalemme Est, le alture del Golan, la Striscia di Gaza e la penisola 
del Sinai.
In sintesi, fino al 1967, la gran parte delle terre su cui era prevista
la nascita dello stato paletinese era in mano araba.

 la nascita dello stato paletinese era in mano araba.
Certo. Ma continuo a non vedere la connessione con la situazione
pre-1967 e la colonizzazione israeliana che, ovviamente, è successiva al
1967.
Y.

 1967.
Sorry: "...continuo a non vedere la connessione *tra* la situazione
pre-1967 e la colonizzazione israeliana..."

 Non c'è nessun "ben altro", giovannino.
invece sì. Se si parla della colonizzazione israeliana si parla dopo
il '67, quello che è accaduto prima non rileva.

 conti con quello che IMHO è anche un grande errore strategico.
molto lucido e condivisibile.
La dimostrazione che ogni tanto, un buon kebab, speziato a dovere,
faccia molto bene alla salute.