Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: quegli articoli del Guardian che sfuggono a Luca Logi

Tony Bayfield, presidente della organizzazione britannica dei rabbini
Reform è stato uno dei firmatari della lettera con cui diversi leader
ebrei inglesi chiedevano il cessate il fuoco a Gaza. Luca Logi (il
moderatore di ICRC che tiene in whte list i lefebvriani) lo ha postato
qui con il  sorrisetto saccente di chi ha scoperto il "vero" ebraismo
e lo sbatte addosso agli ebrei in cane ed ossa che hanno la sventura
di dissentire la lui.
Mi chiedo se Luca Logi ha avuto modo di leggere anche questo articolo
di Bayifield pubblicato dal Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/jan/26/judaism-religion
Sick, bewildered and angry
Jewish-Christian relations have been dealt a severe blow by the pope's
rehabilitation of a holocaust denier
I am feeling sick, bewildered and angry this morning. I have just seen
confirmation that Pope Benedict XVI has welcomed back into the Roman
Catholic church Richard Williamson, who was ordained as a bishop by
the breakaway French archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in 1988.
This doesn't sound like something a Jewish faith leader should get
involved with, let alone feel sick, bewildered and angry about. But
here is why I do.
I am a president of the Council of Christians and Jews, along with my
good friend Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor. A few weeks ago faith
leaders from all the nine faiths in Britain went with a group of 200
sixth-formers to Auschwitz-Birkenau. Cardinal O'Connor was in Rome at
the time discussing his successor but he sent as his representative a
senior Catholic bishop. As we stood in the killing fields of Birkenau,
besides the remains of the crematoria in which hundreds of thousands
of Jewish children were burnt, tears of horror and regret flowed from
all of us.
Williamson recently observed that historical evidence "is hugely
against six million having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as
a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler … I believe there were no gas
chambers". Such is the man that the pope has rehabilitated.
Back in 2005 I wrote a piece acknowledging the huge contribution made
by Pope John Paul II, the Polish pope, to Catholic-Jewish
understanding and reconciliation. I added, "By the time you read this,
we will know who will succeed Pope John Paul II. It is unlikely that
person will have such intimate knowledge and experience of Jews and
Jewish history. Indeed, it is unlikely that there will be many other
popes moulded by the experiences of Roncalli [John XXIII] and Wojtyla
[John Paul II]."
I went on to express anxiety that the next pope would not be a
European and the result would be that Catholic-Jewish relations would
vanish from the radar.
I was, of course, wrong and a German Pope, Joseph Ratzinger was
elected. That should have signalled the continuation of the process of
reconciliation between Christianity and its older brother.
But that has not proved to be the case. Two years ago, Ed Kessler, the
founder-director of the Centre for the Study of Jewish-Christian
Relations in Cambridge, expressed concern that the progress made under
John Paul was atrophying. The proposed beatification of Pius XII,
despite his silence during the Holocaust, has increased tension and
mistrust. The expanded use of liturgy referring to Jews as "blind" and
as having "a veil over their eyes" is disturbing.
On Saturday, Pope Benedict rehabilitated a Holocaust denier. A
spokesman for the Vatican defended the decision on the grounds that
the rehabilitation was a major step towards healing a schism and
restoring church unity. Williamson's views on the Shoah were quite
another issue, the spokesperson added.
But is that how you respond to your sibling whom you know you have
treated less than lovingly over many centuries? Is church unity more
important than one man? Does church unity rest upon a Holocaust
denier?
Had the pope been someone from outside Europe, one could have put this
down to different priorities and a different cultural background. But
Pope Benedict XVI, Joseph Ratzinger, is a German who lived through the
Holocaust. He has chosen with full knowledge of the impact on Jews to
rehabilitate a Holocaust denier and welcome him back to the Catholic
church. Why?
Do you see why I feel sick, bewildered and very angry?
---
"Ho l'impressione" (Luca Logi / rodewalder)
cfr 
http://raionim.blogspot.com/2008/12/luca-logi-e-i-piselli.html

 di dissentire la lui.
So this guy, according to you, Andrea Zanardo, has posted that 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/11/gaza-israel-letter-british-jews
 
article with the presumptuos grin of the discoverer of "true" Judaism, to
slam it on tjhe face of flesh and blood Jews who have the misfortune of
dissenting with him. Am I right, nahum ? Is that a correct translation?
Surely you're not implying that...
 
Rabbi Dr Tony Bayfield, head of the Movement for 
Reform Judaism; Sir Jeremy Beecham, former chair of the Labour party; 
Professor Shalom Lappin of the University of London; Baroness Julia 
Neuberger; Rabbi Danny Rich, chief executive of Liberal Judaism; Rabbi 
Professor Marc Saperstein, principal of Leo Baeck rabbinical training 
..do not represent "true" Judaism and/or are not flesh and blood Jews, I
hope... <grin>

fe...@delenda.net
 ha scritto:

Ma sei sicuro di capire quello che leggi?
Tb



I am not sure to understand the original poster - he seems to be in
disagrameent not only with this Logi person, but also with the eminent
personalities mentioned in the article. That's why I was asking Mr. Zanardo
to confirm if his virulent sarcasm is directed only to Logi, or to the
eminent personalities as well. It is - I believe - a more legitimate
question to ask than many other questions Zanardo has asked in the past,
even here.
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com

 personalities mentioned in the article.
Ah, ok.
Non hai capito quello che leggi.
Tb



Oh, my mistake. I'm just a poor goy, ya know, and I am used to believe that
written words do not need intepretation
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://www.delenda.net

 written words do not need intepretation
Qui si tratterebbe più di saper leggere.
Tb

 Qui si tratterebbe più di saper leggere.
Biblic hebrew and aramaic, I know I know. But you have to consider that
Christians also have to learn latin and koine greek, on the other hand.
They surely have lesser interpretative capabilities (my father studied all
of those languages in is youth, by the way, but that's definitely a story
for another time)

 I am not sure to understand the original poster
"I'm not sure I understood the original post"
It sounds much more better, I think, but maybe it's just because
I never took a First Certificate exam, maybe.

 So this guy, according to you, Andrea Zanardo, has posted that
Ma perché scrivi in inglese?

 I never took a First Certificate exam, maybe.
It's a relatively simple exam. As I said, I took it on a lark a few years
ago.
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com

 Ma perché scrivi in inglese?
Why not? French and other languages are chastised. English is allowed.
fe...@delenda.net
--
http://www.delenda.net

 Ma perché scrivi in inglese?
Non è vero Inglese, è più voglia di qualcosa che scassi la minchia.
-- 
Baci,
Mony

 Non č vero Inglese, č piů voglia di qualcosa che scassi la minchia.
It's my perfectly functional approximation of it. You know what's funny? 
Once in a while I post on newsgroups whose main language is not Italian, 
but nobody complains on my linguistic ability... Furthermore, rest 
assured that your little cadre of Facebook trolls has no exclusive on 
breaking other people's balls...
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com/2009/01/strange-case-of-florence-synagogue-bomb_30.html

 but nobody complains on my linguistic ability... 
They usually say: "oh well, your english is far better than my italian" 
Isn't it"?
Tb

 Isn't it"?
Laughing Out Loud
---
"this conversion is the true 'sin' that will never be forgiven to
Pius" (Luca Logi / rodewalder / Golda Meir)
http://raionim.blogspot.com/2008/12/true-sin.html

 years ago.
Just joking, mate.
I took mine more than twenty years ago.
And yes, it is simple enough.

 Isn't it"?
They don't talk about language at all - you have my profile(s) check 
'em, one the last times they commented on some very weird opinions about 
the Talmud..
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com

 It's my perfectly functional approximation of it.
Mate, he's british.
I suppose he knows what he's talking about. <g>

 Isn't it"?
LOL.

 You're quite good in finding "ex post" arguments, I have to admit it.
I'm quite good AT ...something, I don't know exactly what..
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com

whiplash ha scritto:

Wasn't he a kebab seller from Sterzing? Or wasn't he a prince from 
Transylvania?
Anyway, all these complaints about my english proficiency are moot.

 the Talmud..
vedo, vedo, Anche in soc.culture.jewish.moderated sei riuscito a farti
dire che dovresti occuparti di altro. Chissà cosa dirà quel paio di
persone con cui ti sei intrattenuto in conversazione a proposito della
"faida" fiorentina e del famoso "true sin" di cui discettava il Logi.
Te lo faccio sapere, OK?


 ...something, I don't know exactly what..
C'mon, man, your latinorum is possibly better than mine.

 Anyway, all these complaints about my english proficiency are moot.
Oh, mica sono io quello che ha dovuto pubblicare la foto del proprio
First Certificate sul proprio sito per dimostrare qualcosa al mondo. :)

 dire che dovresti occuparti di altro. Chissà cosa dirà quel paio di
Andrai a lamentarti dei moderatori pure lì? Ci sarà da ridere..
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com

whiplash ha scritto:

Ma che, perdi tempo a vedere il mio sito?

 vedo, vedo, Anche in soc.culture.jewish.moderated 
Occazzo, me lo sono perso.
Tb

 Ma che, perdi tempo a vedere il mio sito?
Pare che tu ci tenga e, beh, in fondo sono un'anima buona.

Tonibaruch ha scritto:

Come ti firmi, che non ho voglia di leggermi tutti i tremilamessaggi?
Tb

 Why not? French and other languages are chastised. English is allowed.
Beh sì, in effetti ognuno si diverte come crede. Pero sta chose des
limbas erlaubte pendant que die anderes verboden zijn la me pias minga
tròp.

 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:glughc$5cs$4...@posted-at.bofh.it...

patetico
dici che sul mio devo mettere la fotocopia dei diplomi di conservatorio?
ma lol 

 ago.
questa dovrebbe diventare la tua bibbia, tesoro
http://www.bettertoeflscores.com/three-secrets-to-dramatically-increase-your-toefl-ibt-reading-abilities/480/

 Anyway, all these complaints about my english proficiency are moot.
alors, on se fait pincer sur son anglais par un british, on cause français 
comme une vache espagnole, on fout un merdier pas possible, on fait le 
guignol....
ça fait beaucoup en une fois, hein vieux?

 dici che sul mio devo mettere la fotocopia dei diplomi di conservatorio?
Ah perchè suoni? E cosa? Dove? Che sito è?
You lack a sense of humor, l'avevo messo per scherzo dopo questo
interessante thread linguistico-musical-trollico...
http://groups.google.it/group/it.arti.musica.classica/browse_thread/thread/8afcea51e69e9663
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://www.delenda.net

 ça fait beaucoup en une fois, hein vieux?
Devo dire anche un po' più di quello che mi aspettassi, mmm... che il
vostro solito branco di trollazzi sarebbe intervenuto era nelle premesse,
ovviamente. D'altra parte se non avete una mazza da fare tutto il giorno,
come in effetti sembra, meglio farvi lavorare per una buona causa
Per carità, le traduzioni fatte tra yogurt caffè e roggenbrot nonchè i
comodi Minuetto granducali erano e sono migliorabili, però il meno che si
possa dire è che si capiscano. C'è chi le trova pure presentabili...
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com/2009/01/strange-case-of-florence-synagogue-bomb_30.html

 
Io o Zanna? Non ci ho scritto praticamente niente, io (che non sono un
giudaista, che di saggezza talmudica ne so dichiaratamente ben poco...).
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com

 Io o Zanna? Non ci ho scritto praticamente niente,
quindi quel Fabio M. Rossetti che è stato strigliato per
l'imprecisione delle fonti non sei tu?
----
"una facile scusa per dimenticare il presente" (Luca Logi /
rodewalder / Golda Meir)
cfr 
http://raionim.blogspot.com/2008/12/una-facile-scusa.html

 l'imprecisione delle fonti non sei tu?
:-) I am not going to give up more personal information about me that is
already available, I'm sorry.. I've only written that, in practice, I've
posted no original material in s.j.m..
Dear Zanardo, you're probably referring a link to google groups I've posted
somewhere on my blog, here..
http://delendanet.blogspot.com/2009/01/talmudic-wisdom.html
 
 
The link is about some very weird opinions about the Talmud and Jesus'
time. They are not the opinions of the poster who started the thread, of
course, but they are somebody else's. I think that they might not be
completely unknown to you, Andrea. The author of the first message was just
asking politely for some information from knowledgeable people. He was
possibly translating as best as he could something he had read in a
language the knowledgeable people were not familiar with. Judging from his
broken English this is almost a certainty. As far as I can see, Zanardo, he
did not name names and books of course, not because of his negligence - I
guess, but only out of respect for the privacy of other people - again I
guess. An interesting topic, this thing about written sources from Jesus'
time ending up in the Talmud, don't you think?
fe...@delenda.net
-- 
http://delendanet.blogspot.com

 Io o Zanna? 
Tu. Non vedo l'ora di farmi due risate.
Tb

 :-) I am not going to give up more personal information 
Quindi ti firmi Fabio M. Rossetti?
Ora vado a vedere.
Tb