Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: il massacro dei copti in Egitto

La NYRB inizia ad avere qualche dubbio sulla primavera araba.
 
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/oct/16/massacre-cairo/
 
 
As the march moved forward, many more people joined in, and there were
some 10,000 by the time we neared Maspero, just after sunset. I rushed
ahead, taking a side street past rows of riot police to reach the
State TV building in advance of the crowd. A few hundred Copts were
already gathered there, and I noticed plainclothes State Security
agents among them and other men lurking around who looked like they
might be thugs. It was in those moments, as I stood at Maspero and the
march approached the corniche, turning the corner, that chaos broke
out. At first there was shouting, as the police used their batons to
deter protesters, and then suddenly, a siren, before gunfire filled
the air—not single shots, but rounds. The sound seemed to be coming
from the front line, near the October 6 Bridge, which I now stood
behind. It kept coming in bursts, and the marchers were running, many
back in the direction of Tahrir, where they later tweeted that they
were confronted by thugs and security forces.
 
Almost everyone I talked to thought the army was doing the shooting,
saying that security forces were firing randomly at the crowd. More
plausibly, from my vantage point and the accounts of some, it looked
like the army had first fired warning shots in the air to prevent the
protesters from reaching the TV Building, which some activists had
been proposing to storm (a theory subsequently confirmed in part by
the discovery of blank rounds at the site.) But this then raises the
question of who else might have been shooting, since it became clear
that live rounds were used.
 
One witness said the first shot came from behind the security forces’
front line, in the area between the bridge and Maspero. And a friend
later told me a pickup truck had driven by the march as it was
approaching the corniche, and that men had shot at the crowds through
the windows, stirring panic. This weekend, I was shown a video that
seemed to confirm this—it showed a pickup truck that had first gone to
Maspero, where five or six men with clubs and swords had got off,
pelted the army with stones, and beat some soldiers. Clearly there to
stir trouble, these thugs cast themselves as “Copts”, putting the army
on alert. The video shows them then driving off, in the wrong
direction down the street and round the corner, towards the
protesters. The account of the first gunshot coming from behind the
army as the protesters approached might be explained by this mob—it is
possible one of them stayed behind in Maspero.
 
At the time, rushing back in the direction of the side street as the
crackling of gunshots filled the air, I found myself facing dozens of
police in riot gear beating down protesters with batons. I returned to
the main street a few meters away, where people were being knocked to
the ground. Men around me—civilians—were throwing rocks in the
direction of the march, and people had by that point begun screaming
as the APCs, which had been stationed at the foot of the bridge, began
maneuvering out of their sidewalk parking spots, and then roared,
zigzagging down the corniche, pushing protesters onto sidewalks and to
the ground as they picked up speed.
 
...In that first hour after the violence broke out, rocks and broken
glass and Molotov cocktails rained down on us —some of it from what
looked like thugs who had joined the crowd, some from atop 6 October
Bridge, and some from the line of buildings adjacent to Maspero.
(Someone said objects were being thrown from the State TV building
itself.) Teargas was also fired, and it lingered in the air. I
continued to hear shots, seemingly fired at random, no one could
really tell from where. Protesters that I had seen marching lay
injured. An army car was engulfed in flames—the first in a series of
army and private vehicles that would be set on fire that night.
 
...For the next few hours, the violence ebbed and flowed between riot
police, soldiers, Copts, and mobs. I could see clashes up on the
bridge and was told that the army was chasing protesters through the
streets of downtown. I was chased myself at one point, up a ramp.
Young boys were also flocking in—many of them teenagers, some as young
as nine or ten. They picked up rocks and threw them, challenging
anyone to fight back, shrieking insults about Christians, and chanting
for an Islamic state. Many of them looked familiar—the same youth I
had seen gather outside the Israeli embassy a few weeks before, and at
other protests in recent months that had turned violent. Soldiers
looked on, many of them leaving the rowdy crowds to battle, while
others tried to break up the mobs. The sirens of ambulances rushing to
and from the area could be heard in all directions.
 
...Then there is the matter of paid thugs who seem to have taken part.
Official government memos obtained by local newspapers in recent weeks
indicate that there is a network of some 165,000 thugs who worked for
the State Security apparatus and who have been used by agents of the
former regime in various assaults over the past six months. Within
army ranks, it is believed that destabilizing SCAF itself may be one
of their targets; a plot orchestrated from within the existent and
underground remnants of Mubarak’s security apparatus. Indeed, amid the
violence of Maspero, plainclothes state security agents and thugs
seemed to have played more of a part then the soldiers themselves as
the night wore on.
 
Above all, perhaps, was the role played by the state media, which
actively incited violence against “armed Copts” and quickly adopted
the narrative yhat the state has long fallen back on in such
situations: namely, that there is always “foreign interference” or an
“element” stirring trouble against the state. (During the revolution,
it was State TV that claimed that protesters in Tahrir were being
bribed to be there—LE50 a day and a KFC meal). In this instance, the
Copts were the perfect scapegoat.

 La NYRB inizia ad avere qualche dubbio sulla primavera araba.
 
ma che scherzi? Shylock è contento che governi l'esercito,


Bombacci, come al solito non capisci un cazzo.
 
Quale alternative ci sono all'esercito in Egitto?

Il 18/10/11 10:12, A. Dubai ha scritto:

A Bombacci piacciono.
Ma il problema non è lì. E' nel fatto che si sia cantata una primavera 
democratica, quando lo sbocco meno tragico tra quelli possibili era la 
dittatura militare.
 
 
 
 
-- 
"Quando ti incontro per la strada ti darei calci nei denti. Ma forse non 
li senti. E' meglio se ti rullo di kartoni (kartoni)"


l'esercito è la peggiore in assoluto, stando ai numeri

Il 18/10/11 20.19, stalinist dandy ha scritto:

L'esercito governava anche prima. Governa da quando ha fatto fuori la 
monarchia.
 
PP

 l'esercito è la peggiore in assoluto, stando ai numeri
 
Dici che instaurare la polizia religiosa, come a Gaza, e` meglio?


ma adesso fa peggio, stando ai numeri.

 A Bombacci piacciono.
 
chi, i militari foraggiati dagli USA? Proprio....

 Dici che instaurare la polizia religiosa
 
dico che la logica del meno peggio è la scusa per giustificare il
peggio.

 peggio.
 
Ergo, adottiamo il peggio.
 
Non fa una grinza.


Bombacci è sempre Bombacci
 
-- 
Io non gufo l'Inter. Le spacco le corna.


ergo, TU vuoi il peggio, che è esattamente quello che c'è adesso

Il 18/10/11 20.47, stalinist dandy ha scritto:

Ripostali un po' 'sti numeri, che ho forti dubbi che tu ci abbia capito 
qualcosa.
 
PP


Ridurre l'Egitto ad un paese governato da una fazione religiosa, con
tanto di polizia dei costumi, secondo te sarebbe il meglio.
 
In fondo, sei comunista.


e soprattutto, e' Bombacci.

 Ridurre l'Egitto ad un paese governato da una fazione religiosa,
 
avere più detenuti senza processo oggi che in 30 anni di dittatura è
IL PEGGIO, e c'è già. Svicolare su quello che ci sarebbe al posto del
peggio è, appunto, svicolare perchè si è così ipocriti e vigliacchi da
non voler ammettere la verità, ovvero che da buon fascista tu ami le
dittature militari