Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: The Downing Street Memos (The Times) - O come si fa la guerra preventiva.

Questi documenti esplosivi del governo inglese finirono su Internet a 
primavera scorsa e vennero pubblicati come autentici da The Times il 1 
Maggio 2005.
Visto la loro importanza per interpretare la crisi irakena, li quoto, 
sebbene in ritardo. Non so quanto la loro importanza non sia sfuggita 
anche alla stampa italiana.
IMHO dimostrano la volonta' degli USA di invadere a tutti i costi 
l'Irak, con l'appoggio britannico, incuranti dall'esito delle ispezioni. 
Am.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1663752,00.html
The Sunday Times
June 19, 2005
The leaked Iraq war documents
Michael Smith 
The level of interest in the now famous Downing Street Memo, published 
in the May 1 edition of The Sunday Times, and in the leaked documents 
published over subsequent weeks, has been extraordinary
This new web page is designed to give our readers access to all the 
stories we have written about three highly classified documents on the 
Iraq war that were leaked to The Sunday Times ahead of the British 
General Election on May 5, 2005. 
These three documents include the now famous łDowning Street Memo, which 
contains the minutes of a meeting of what was effectively Tony Blairąs 
war cabinet held in Downing Street on July 23, 2002.
The meeting was a crucial one. President George W Bush was due to make a 
decision on which military plan should be used for the invasion of Iraq. 
The British had a number of deep concerns over the US plans which Blair 
would have to raise with the US president.
The Foreign Office was particularly concerned over US lack of interest 
in planning for the aftermath of the war and the lack of a legal 
justification for ousting Saddam. Regime change for its own sake is 
illegal under international law. It was therefore seen as essential that 
the allies went first to the UN to obtain a Security Council resolution 
backing the use of force to oust Saddam.
It was in this context that the main players on the British side met. 
Blair chaired the meeting, which was also attended by the Foreign 
Secretary Jack Straw; the then Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon; the 
Attorney General Lord Goldsmith; Sir Richard Dearlove, the Chief of 
Britainąs Secret Intelligence Service (better known as MI6); the 
Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee John Scarlett; and Admiral 
Sir Michael Boyce, who as Chief of Defence Staff was head of Britainąs 
armed forces.  
The key quotes in this particular document came from:
Dearlove, who had just returned from Washington where he had talks with 
George Tenet, and was quoted as saying that there was ła perceptible 
shift in attitude in the US capital. łMilitary action was now seen as 
inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, though military action, 
justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence 
and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience 
with the UN route... There was little discussion in Washington of the 
aftermath after military action.
 
Straw, who said: łIt seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take 
military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case 
was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD 
capability was less than that of Libya, North  Korea or Iran.  Britain 
should łwork up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the 
UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification 
for the use of force.
 
And Geoff Hoon, who in what may yet turn out to be the most damaging 
quote of all, said that łthe US had already begun łspikes of activity to 
put pressure on the regime. (See British Bombing Raids were Illegal, 
says Foreign Office,  June 19, 2005)
 
An inside-page article set out the context for the publication of the 
leaked document (see Blair planned Iraq war from the start, May 1, 
2005), and it was in fact the second of the documents, the Cabinet 
Office briefing paper, Iraq: Conditions for Military Action, on which we 
based our first front-page story (Blair hit by new leak of secret war 
plan,  May 1, 2005).
This document distributed on July 21, 2002 two days before the Downing 
Street meeting was designed to brief the participants on the latest 
situation with regard to the US war planning. It gives an astonishing 
feel of the official concern felt within Whitehall over the way in which 
things were going, the lack of legal justification, the failure to 
prepare for the post-war situation in Iraq and most particularly the 
fact that there was no way that Britain could get out of going to war 
(See Ministers were told of need for Gulf War excuse,  June 12, 2005).
For as the briefing paper made clear very early on łWhen the Prime 
Minister discussed Iraq with President Bush at Crawford in April he said 
that the UK would support military action to bring about regime change.
At the time, this was the most damaging part of any of the documents. 
Despite Blairąs repeated insistence throughout 2002 that no decision had 
been taken to go to war with Iraq, political analysts had long believed 
that the decision was in fact made at the Bush-Blair summit at the 
presidentąs range at Crawford, Texas, in early April 2002. Not only did 
this confirm it, but it did so in terms that were highly damaging to the 
prime minister.
Despite having been warned by his officials that łregime change per se 
is illegal he had agreed to back military action to achieve it. There 
were three conditions attached to his agreement. But the most crucial of 
these, that łoptions for action to eliminate Iraqąs WMD through the UN 
weapons inspectors had been exhausted would never be achieved.
The third leaked document was Foreign Office legal advice, which was 
appended to the briefing paper. This is a useful background document on 
the British view of international law the text of which is now also 
published on this website.
The recent circulation on the internet of the text of five other similar 
memos, which were leaked to me last September, has raised some 
interesting issues, largely because I destroyed the original copies I 
was given to protect my source. A number of supporters of President Bush 
have even suggested that this somehow łproved that the documents were 
not genuine.
Firstly, all of the documents have been authenticated not just by me, 
but by the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times and the Associated 
Press. Secondly, the various documents included quotes from a dozen 
senior officials, including Blair, Straw and Hoon, none of whom have 
come forward to dismiss them as fakes. Thirdly it is a matter of record 
that a police Special Branch leak investigation took place into how I 
came to get hold of the documents, something that would not have 
occurred were they forgeries.
The leak investigation should come as no surprise to anyone who has read 
the Downing Street Memo, which carries the stern warning, łThis record 
is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made.  It should be 
shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents. The irony 
is of course that the attention given to the document by the internet 
bloggers once it appeared on this website has almost certainly made it 
the most widely read secret British document in history.
PS: Ricordo che Per fatti di questo genere - la guerra preventiva di 
invasione - sono stati condannati a Norimberga gerarchi nazisti,come 
ricordato da La Repubblica di ieri.
Am.


Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 05:46:57 GMT
====
-Stefano

 E smentiti come tali sia da Washington che da Londra :)
Smith del Sunday Times dice esattamente il contrario. Che nessuno ha 
negato che siano veri.Ora prova il contrario.
Http://...................................................
Senno' sara' la tua ennesima cialtronata.
Am.
PS E'la prima volta che sti documenti vengono pubblicati integralmente 
su IPI.
Ma tu invece di discuterli sei solo in grado di diffamarli. Non mi 
stupisce, visto la tua caratura intelletuale...

Non mi stupisce, visto la tua caratura intelletuale...
...disse il *COGLIONE MONONEURONE*... :)
-Stefano

 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1663752,00.html
P.S.: a Norimberga, però, non c'era solo la condanna per una guerra
"preventiva", ma qualcosa di molto peggiore, purtroppo. 

alla mano?
Appunto. Dove sono le tue prove? :)
Perche' io le mie le ho mostrate e ho smerdato sia te che il fesso
mononeurone :)
*LOL*
-Stefano

 "preventiva", ma qualcosa di molto peggiore, purtroppo.
L'articolo di Repubblica dice che a Norimberga- leggere per credere - 
si parlo' pochissimo di Olocausto. Quasi tutti i capi di imputazione 
riguardarono crimini di guerra commessi contro gli Alleati o neutrali.
Crimini tra l'altro che potrebbero oggi essere facilmente contestati 
agli USA  se questi con contestassero l'applicabilita' delle 
Convenzioni di Ginevra ai loro prigionieri.
Am.

Convenzioni di Ginevra ai loro prigionieri.
La Convenzione di Ginevra si applica a ben precise categorie di persone.
Se i loro prigionieri non rientrano in tali categorie hanno tutta la
liberta' del mondo e tutto il diritto di non applicare tali convenzioni.
-Stefano

 a quelli dell'IAEA quando era in Iraq :)
Il pezzo forte di SdC consiste nel dire che le  mancate scoperte di Kay 
non negano le  scoperte di Blix, il quale non ha mai sostenuto di aver 
trovato delle stockpiles di WMD. 
Quando gli si fa notare che il rapporto di Duelfer ha confermato che non 
vi erano ne' stockpiles ne programmi di WMD,come aveva gia' sostenuto 
Kay, allora ritorna a dire che le aveva trovate Blix. 
(Il quale Blix non ha mai detto nulla di simile,  ma casomai ha sempre 
chiesto piu' tempo per per accertare se esistessero stockpiles o 
programmi di WMD).
Quando gli si fa notare all'indefesso De Cesari che se Saddam avesse 
avuto delle WMD, le avrebbe usate per tentare di bloccare l'invasione - 
come gia' notato da un generale italiano - allora dice che sono fesserie 
e che se queste armi non sono state trovate allora sono state sepolte 
nel deserto Irakeno o portate altrove.
Quando gli si fa notare che persino Blair ha ammesso in pubblico che non 
vi erano WMD, dice che sono ste male interpretate le parole di Blair.
Infine sostiene che Bush non ha mai accettato che non vi fossero WMD in 
Irak.  Quando Bush ****ha riconosciuto il 7 ottobre 2004 che non vi 
erano WMD in Irak****
http://www.public-action.com/911/no-wmd-sdut/
 
Bush, Cheney admit Iraq had no WMD, take new tack
They cite oil-for-food scam as justification for invasion
By Scott Lindlaw
ASSOCIATED PRESS
October 8, 2004 
WASHINGTON  President Bush and his vice president conceded yesterday in 
the clearest terms yet that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass 
destruction, trying to shift the Iraq war debate to a new issue  whether 
the invasion was justified because Hussein was abusing a U.N. 
oil-for-food program.
Bush's response was his first reaction to a report released Wednesday by 
Charles Duelfer, the CIA's top weapons inspector, that contradicted the 
White House's main argument for invading Iraq.
....
In July, Bush said, "We have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass 
destruction," a sentence construction that kept alive the possibility 
that the weapons might yet be discovered.
Yesterday, Bush used the clearest language to date nailing the question 
shut. "Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were 
there," he said, his words placing the blame on U.S. intelligence 
agencies.
Ecce Homo!
De Cesari, l'unica Arma di Distruzione di Massa che si e' autodistrutta 
dandosi la zappa sui piedi.
L'unico soldato giapponese che continua a combattere mentre il Commander 
in Chief ha gia' confessato lo sbaglio.
Ma tu ne sai una  piu' di Bush, eh De Cesari?
Good luck!
Am.

Ma tu ne sai una  piu' di Bush, eh De Cesari?
Di Bush ... che non afferma da nessuna parte quello che un *COGLIONE
MONONEURONE* come te vuole mettergli in bocca? :)
*LOL*
-Stefano

 -Stefano
Me fai ridere quando fai il serioso.  Prova 'spaghetti me te magno', 
piuttosto che affa' l'ammericano...
Prrrrrrrr!
Am.

Me fai ridere quando fai il serioso.
...disse il bue all'asino... :)
*LOL*
-Stefano

 *LOL*
Io non metto nulla in bocca, queste sono citazioni dell'Associated  Press.
Ti e' andata storta. Rassegnati! E i tuoi insulti strillati da 
pescivendola rificcateli in gola...
Am.

E i tuoi insulti strillati da pescivendola rificcateli in gola...
...disse la pescivendola... :)
-Stefano

 Ginevra ai loro prigionieri.
In effetti la tattica USA č molto fine: pubblicizzando la "lotta al
terrorismo" come qualcosa di nuovo e senza precedenti, e quindi di diverso
rispetto alla guerra convenzionale tra Stati, tentano di sfuggire ai paletti
posti dal diritto internazionale umanitario agli stessi Stati per proteggere
determinate categorie deboli dagli arbětri di quelli.

 Magari perche' hanno sputato sul piatto da cui mangiavano? :)
Uhm: interessante osservazione che la dice lunga, Steve (a parte la forma 
inusuale del "sul" al posto di "nel", ma vabbé)... 

deboli dagli arbětri di quelli.
Puttanata.
-Stefano


Cosa che del resto ha confermato lo stesso Blair, a poco tempo di 
distanza,dando il regime-change come risultato sostitutivo del 
rinvenimento delle WMD.
Quindi vedi di bagnarti meglio le ventose se vuoi arrampicarti sugli 
specchi.
E smettila di diffamare quando sei a corto di argomenti. E' un 
atteggiamento basso e codardo.
Am.

E' un atteggiamento basso e codardo.
Infatti non ci si puo' aspettare niente di diverso da te.
Ora trova la frase dove Bush afferma che non c'erano WMD in Iraq se ne
sei capace.
-Stefano

 -Stefano
per quella frase da me citata si trovano *1300* occorrenze su Google a 
dimostrazione che sei un baro e mentitore. Ti do' le prime dieci:
Online NewsHour: Report Shows No WMD In Iraq -- October 7, 2004
... a comprehensive report that confirms the earlier conclusion of David 
Kay that
Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there. 
...
www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/
 middle_east/july-dec04/wmd_10-7.html - 29k - 
Cached - Similar pages 
Yellow Cake Walk
"Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there 
..."
 George W. Bush - October 7, 2004 - Source 
www.whitehouse.gov
.
www.yellowcakewalk.net/quotes.html
 - 14k - Cached - Similar pages 
War Without Reason - The total collapse of Bush's arguments for ...
... reporters on the South Lawn, "confirms the earlier conclusion of 
David Kay
 that Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were 
there. ...
slate.msn.com/id/2108000/
 - 36k - Cached - Similar pages 
Tompaine.com - Print Page
... that Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed 
were there"--and
 given the report's content, he could hardly maintain otherwise. ...
www.tompaine.com/print/hiding_behind_secrecy.php
 - 11k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
Bush, Cheney admit Iraq had no WMD, take new tack | The San Diego ...
"Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were 
there," he
 said, his words placing the blame on US intelligence agencies. ...
www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/
 20041008/news_1n8weapons.html - 22k - 
Cached - Similar pages 
The Free Liberal: "Bad Intelligence" - The Subject is Subjectivity
"Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were 
there", admitted
 Bush. While Americans and Iraqis continue to die by the day in Iraq, ...
www.freeliberal.com/archives/001018.html
 - 25k - Cached - Similar pages 
The Political Scene (11 October 2004)
... admitting that "Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence 
believed
were there" but arguing that "based on all the information we have 
today, ...
www.mees.com/postedarticles/
 politics/PoliticalScene/a47n41c01.htm - 14k 
- Cached - Similar pages 
noticias - US ELECTION: "Bad Movie"
BUSH: "Iraq did not have the weapons that our Intelligence believed were 
there."
 BUSH: "This looks like the rerun of a bad movie and I'm not interested 
in ...
www.noticias.info/Archivo/
 2004/200410/20041031/20041031_38417.shtm - 
32k - Cached - Similar pages 
Equipo Nizkor - White House admits Iraq had no WMDs.
''Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were 
there,'' Bush
 said, referring to the central rationale cited for the invasion of 
Iraq. ...
www.derechos.org/nizkor/iraq/doc/wmd.html
 - 7k - Cached - Similar pages 
Bush, Cheney Say WMD Report Bolsters War Decision (
washingtonpost.com
)
... Charles A. Duelfer, which was presented to Congress yesterday, 
confirms "that
Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there. 
...
www.washingtonpost.com/
 wp-dyn/articles/A14422-2004Oct7.html -  
Similar pages 
Eccetera. Tu sei l'unico poveraccio e pezzente  presuntuoso rimasto a 
sostenere che Bush non abbia pronunciato quella frase, *riferendosi al 
motivo principale per la guerra in Irak*, come ha riportato la 
maggioranza dei media *seri*.
Per Blair si potrebbe fare lo stesso esercizio.
Va a portare le tue carabattole altrove, venditore di marchi 
contraffatti.
Am.

contraffatti.
...disse il venditore di marchi contraffatti... :)
-Stefano

 -Stefano
La tua malafede si commenta da sola.
Io ho copiaincollato la prima pagina di Google (di 1300!) senza nessun 
intervento. Tu stai li a scegliere col lanternino da azzeccagarbugli.
Fallo anche sulle altre 120 pagine che troverai citata da Bush sempre la 
stessa espressione di Duelfer  che nega le WMD in Irak.
Oltre ad un vigliacco senza coraggio fisico sei anche un coglione 
abissale, che sostituisce l'argomentazione con la diffamazione ad 
personam.
Codardo, vieni fuori,o va a strisciare altrove, se trovi un NG dove non 
ti disprezzino...
Am.

se trovi un NG dove non ti disprezzino...
Idem come sopra :)
-Stefano

 -Stefano
il cagasotto :)

 il cagasotto :)
...disse il coglione fascista... :)
*LOL*
-Stefano

 conducting as two countries at the time than me. 
Peccato che quest'affermazione equivale ad un riconoscimento implicito 
dell'autentiticita' del memo.
Povero, incomparabile fesso che pretende di occuparsi di PI, nota 
materia per neonati...
Va a consolarti insultando la gente su it.discussioni.sentimenti, o 
sulla posta di Novella 2000, se te lo permettono...
Am.

Va a consolarti insultando la gente su it.discussioni.sentimenti,
...disse il bue all'asino... :)
-Stefano