Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: Per la guerra si puo' pure negare un'Olocausto...

Per il giorno della Memoria, gli USA decidono di non riconoscere come 
evento storico il "primo Olocausto":
Il Genocidio perpetrato sugli Armeni da parte dell'Impero Ottomano nel
1915.
--------------------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/2572667.stm
Armenians say US failed them
Victims of one of the worst crimes of our age
By Fergal Keane Reporting from Turkey for Correspondent
President Bush is counting his allies in Europe and the Middle East in
preparation for conflict in Iraq. One of the key US allies is Turkey.
 But the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Armenians in 1915 -
some
estimates run to more than a million - still troubles America's
diplomatic
relations with Turkey.
Armenian communities have long pressed America to recognise the
slaughter
in Ottoman Turkey as genocide.
But the Turks have always denied genocide and the scale of killing.
Turkey says the deaths were the consequence of civil war.
America regards Turkey as being strategically vital in any potential
conflict with Iraq.
The Western allies will need Turkish bases from which to launch air
and
land strikes.
Turkish politicians have consistently urged America not to recognise
the
Armenian claims.
The Armenians feel they have been failed by President Bush, and
President
Clinton before him, in not already branding the slaughter as genocide
- as
they both had pledged to do.
 The Armenians were victims of one of the worst crimes of our age.
 Militant nationalists, who ruled Ottoman Turkey at the time, had long
regarded the Armenians as a treacherous minority.
As the Ottoman Turks prepared for entry to the First World War, they
started the deportation of the Armenians from their traditional lands.
 Thriving Armenian communities vanished. Those who made it to America
were
the lucky few.
But many thousands were either left to starve in the mountains or, as
Professor Halil Bergtai explained, "They fell victim to systematic
extermination by vengeful tribes acting as government agents."
 The Armenians have always maintained these actions were a calculated
genocide.
 However, former Turkish MP, Tayyibe Gulek rejects the accusations,
saying: "Accusing people of genocide, of wanting to eradicate a whole
group of people simply because of who they are, is absolutely
incorrect,
inaccurate and we feel very insulted."
 Turkey has never denied forcing the Armenians out but says this did
not
amount to genocide.
The government order sealed Armenian fate Filed away in the Ottoman
archives is an extraordinary document.
Signed in 1915 by the government's cabinet, it is an official order
for
the deportation of all Armenians.
Men, women and children were all classified as the enemy and were to
be
driven out.
 The American Ambassador in Constantinople at the time, Henry
Morgenthau,
urgently contacted the Secretary of State in Washington.
 He wrote: "Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is
increasing, and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses it appears
that a
campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of
reprisal
against rebellion".
 It is clear that America was made aware of the extent of the
atrocities
at an early stage.
Just prior to the American presidential elections in 2000, President
Clinton shocked the majority of Congress.
 He asked the Speaker of the House to withdraw a bill that would have
recognised the Armenian slaughter as "genocide".
His reason was for "grave national security and concerns, endangering
American lives".
But, Turkish Ambassador, Solmaz Unaydin said: "I think it was
President
Clinton's very good foresight, appreciation and evaluation of Turkey's
position in the region, and the value they attach to our 'friendship
and
collaboration' as a Nato ally."
 Now, with war looming against Iraq, President Bush needs Turkey even
more
than his predecessor.
This has meant breaking a pledge he made to the Armenian community.
In the run-up to the presidential elections, President Bush stated:
"The
Armenians were subjected to a genocidal campaign...if elected
president, I
would ensure our nation properly recognises the tragic suffering of
the
Armenian people".  Bedros Gezoulin is a 96-year-old survivor of the
slaughter who vividly remembers the massacres and starvation.
 He said: "After I die, I will be finished. But I will wait for that
day.
I will wait till I die to hear them say: 'yes we have done it'."
 But with President Bush dependent on Turkish support the survivors
may be
waiting for a long time.
==========================================
Del resto, si e' in buona compagnia.
Anche i governi Israeliani si sono sempre opposti a riconoscere
l'Olocausto Armeno, per le stesse ragioni di RealPolitik.
Il che, per un paese come Israele, e' il limite dell'ipocrisia:
Hitler, in un discorso a ufficiali delle SS in partenza per il fronte
orientale, disse che tanto "chi si ricorda degli Armeni"
===========================================
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=67223
Peres stands accused over denial of 'meaningless' Armenian Holocaust
By Robert Fisk in Jerusalem
One of Israel's leading scholars of the Jewish Holocaust has angrily
compared the country's Nobel prize-winning Foreign Minister, Shimon
Peres, to a holocaust denier after an interview in which Mr Peres made
the astonishing claim that the Armenians - 1.5 million of whom were
slaughtered by Ottoman Turks in 1915 - never experienced a genocide.
Mr Peres' statement appeared in the Turkish Daily News prior to a
recent state visit to Turkey; the paper says he went so far as to
refer to the Armenian account of the mass slaughter as "meaningless".
Israel Charny, the editor of the distinguished new two-volume
Encyclopedia of Genocide, has written to Mr Peres, expressing his
shame at the remarks and accusing Mr Peres of going "beyond a moral
boundary that no Jew should allow himself to trespass".
Dr Charny, who is also executive director of the Institute on the
Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem, has reminded the Foreign Minister
that Israeli academics signed a public declaration at a recent
holocaust conference in Philadelphia stating that the Armenian
genocide was factual.
To the fury of Armenians, and of Dr Charny, Turkey is funding a
worldwide campaign to deny the facts of the Armenian holocaust which
was unleashed by Ottoman rulers against Turkey's Christian minority in
the First World War. Tens of thousands of Armenian men were executed
by Turkish forces in 1915, and their families deported to the Syrian
desert where they were systematically plundered, raped and butchered
by Turkish gendarmes and marauding Kurds.
At the time, the British Foreign Office denounced the Armenian
holocaust (Winston Churchill first used the word about the Armenians)
although today's British Government, apparently fearing Turkish
displeasure, initially tried to prevent Armenian participation in this
year's Holocaust Memorial Day.
Dr Charny, who devotes 45 pages of detailed factual evidence and
copies of documents on the Armenian holocaust in his encyclopedia, was
among those Israeli historians who refused to give in to Israeli
Foreign Ministry pressure when Turkey objected to the inclusion of the
Armenian slaughter in a 1982 holocaust conference in Tel Aviv. Dr
Charny says Mr Peres telephoned him then, urging him "not to insist on
including the subject of the Armenians".
When Adolf Hitler was preparing the Nazi extermination of Europe's
Jews, he asked his Wehrmacht generals if the world any longer
remembered the Armenian genocide; but Israel has often adopted an
ambiguous attitude towards the 20th century's first holocaust.
Unwilling to antagonise its present-day Turkish ally - and in some
cases unwilling to compare Armenian suffering with that of European
Jewry - the Israeli Foreign Office persuaded the Jewish Holocaust
survivor Elie Wiesel to withdraw from the 1982 conference's debates on
the Armenians.
In Dr Charny's unprecedented letter to Mr Peres, he says: "It seems
that because of your wishes to advance very important relations with
Turkey, you have been prepared to circumvent the subject of the
Armenian genocide in 1915-1920 ... it may be that in your broad
perspective of the needs of the state of Israel, it is your obligation
to circumvent and desist from bringing up the subject with Turkey,
but, as a Jew and an Israeli, I am ashamed of the extent to which you
have now entered into the range of actual denial of the Armenian
genocide, comparable to denials of the Holocaust."
The Turkish newspaper states Mr Peres said Israel should not determine
a "philosophical position" on the Armenian holocaust. "We reject
attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian
allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a
tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide."
If Mr Peres has been quoted accurately - and he has made no attempt to
correct the newspaper - his remarks will deeply offend millions of
Armenians. It is standard Turkish policy to refer with contempt to
Armenian suffering as "allegations" and to downgrade the Armenian
holocaust as a mere "tragedy". To the relief of the millions of
Armenians descendants of the 1915 bloodbath, Dr Charny has never
wavered. His encyclopedia states bluntly that both the Armenian and
Jewish genocides were the products of state-initiated policies. "The
Armenian genocide occurred under the circumstances of the Turkish
revolution and the First World War," it says, "while the [Jewish]
Holocaust was a product of the Nazi revolution and the Second World
War."
Turkey maintains, despite US diplomatic evidence at the time, that the
Armenians were mere victims of a "civil war". An American diplomat,
Leslie Davis, the US consul at Harput, saw the bodies of thousands of
Armenians in the Turkish countryside in 1915, many of them knifed to
death. "A massacre, however horrible the word may sound, would be
humane in comparison," he wrote.

comparison," he wrote.
E nessuno nega che sia stato un massacro.  Ma da qui a farne un
"genocidio" ce ne passa.
-Stefano

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3E34E962...@interfree.it...

se lo dici tu :-)

 DEPORTAZIONE :)  E non GENOCIDIO :)
De Cesari, ma lo sai che sei un *GRANDE* idiota?
GT

De Cesari, ma lo sai che sei un *GRANDE* idiota?
...disse il bue all'asino :))
-Stefano

"Stefano De Cesari" e' -per vari motivi- un nick molto conosciuto in 
molti
gruppi della gerarchia .it*. Alcuni (tra i quali egli stesso) sono
dell'opinione che questo nick corrisponda ad una persona ben informata, 
in
grado di sostenere una conversazione su qualsiasi argomento dello 
scibile
umano, dal sesso degli angeli all'essenza del flogisto.
Altri (e sono decisamente parecchi) sono piu' propensi a pensare che si
tratti di un fastidioso troll interessato più che altro a generare 
flames
e/o a rendere inutilizzabili i gruppi, fino al limite del flooding.
Difficile confutare che De Cesari tenti di sfruttare a suo vantaggio 
alcune
contraddizioni della rete, delle normative, delle varie versioni di
"netiquette".
I fatti, ovvero le dimensioni empricamente rilevabili del fenomeno De 
Cesari
ci dicono altro: circa 21.000 post, sparsi su decine di newsgroups, con 
un
indotto di 16400 post in cui viene esplicitamente nominato (fonte: 
Google
Groups). Di tutti questi post e' interessante osservare la ricorrenza 
delle
formule che caratterizzano il linguaggio di "Stefano De Cesari", come
l'invito a fornire dimostrazioni, il richiamo al topic del gruppo, o la
esplicita dichiarazione di rivolgersi all'abuseman dell' utOnto di 
turno,
tre voci che collezionano ad oggi ben 2510 ricorrenze, vale a dire il 
12%
dell'intera produzione di questo autore. Analogamente, particolare 
rilievo
assume il richiamo alla "netiquette", e osservando come a seconda dei
periodi e dei casi la citazione passi dalla RFC 1855 alle più blande e
confuse versioni dei vari providers, si contano ben 1350 ricorrenze per
questo termine, vale a dire il 6,4% dell'intera produzione. 
Interessante e'
anche il continuo riferimento agli insulti, veri o reali che siano, che
ricorrono per 469 volte, pari al 2,2%.
Non trascurabili, peraltro, i dati riferiti alle occorenze di alcune 
formule
che caratterizzano il linguaggio usenettiano di questo utente. Il 
neologismo
"utOnto" si trova per __ volte ( %), "se lo dici tu" 17200 (82 %), e la
risata di scherno ahahahahahah (143 -0,6%) ;))) - spesso seguita dalle
faccine, parte integrante del linguaggio telematico del nostro.
Al di là di qualsiasi giudizio di valore sul contenuto dei post di
quest'utente, appare chiaro come l'elevatissimo numero di messaggi 
tenda a
creare un'impatto a volte molto pesante sui Ng, generando spesso delle
flames relativamente alla percezione manifestata dagli utenti di essere
deliberatamente provocati. Pure alto e' il numero delle discussioni che 
si
trasformano in tenzoni a due, come le risposte infastidite ad obiezioni
circa il rispetto del topic del gruppo, o della netiquette stessa,
all'origine di thread tanto interminabili quanto inesorabilmente 
off-topic
rispetto al gruppo.

Paperino wrote:

 Perfetto!Grazie per le informazioni.penso pero che questo "caro amico"sia
uno e trino.Almeno altri due usano le sue stesse espressioni e lo
stile????si fa per dire,è identico.appena entrato in questo ng,pur senza
aver provocato nessuno, sono stato insultato,per la verità in un modo così
infantile e volgare,che non ho potuto far altro che sorridere e mandare a
quel paese l'autore di tante scemenze.Comunque il tipio o i tipi mi
divertono assai.
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
 segnala gli abusi ad 
ab...@newsland.it

stato insultato,
Guarda che parli con uno che e' entrato nel ng e il primo post e' stato
di insulti :)))
*LOL*
-Stefano

 -Stefano
allora che vuoi lol?


 -Stefano
allora che vuoi, lol?



Pochi sanno che lo sterminio degli Armeni fu ordinato dai Turchi ma fu
eseguito dai Curdi.