Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: Norway Terror Accused Breivik on 'the Jewish Question'

Posto delle osservazioni che mi sembrano interessanti sul caso Breivik, 
soprattutto per quello che riportano del suo programma politico, e anche 
per il tono di imbarazzata sollecitudine di Karon nel rifiutare la sua 
offerta.
Comincio a pensare che la bomba di Oslo e la strage di Otoya facciano 
parte di un lucido quanto spietato piano per veicolare il "manifesto" di 
Breivik, che fosse questo il loro vero scopo.   Un obiettivo che qualche 
effetto lo ha avuto se ha indotto Borghezio e un esponente del FN di Le 
Pen a dichiarare condivisibili le sue idee.
I due, peraltro, essendo quel che sono, non hanno nemmeno capito che 
Breivik invita a nascondere la svastica, per sfruttare più efficacemente 
e pragmaticamente le alleanze possibili col "sionismo".
Temo che dovrò leggermi il suo manifesto.
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Norway Terror Accused Breivik on 'the Jewish Question'
Posted by Tony Karon Tuesday, July 26, 2011 at 2:22 pm
There was a time when a blond, blue-eyed nationalist looking to 
violently rid Europe of its "alien" immigrant population could be 
reliably assumed to hate Jews. It's no longer quite that simple.
Anders Behring Breivik insists, in his rambling 1,500-page manifesto 
released on the day of his confessed rampage that killed 76 Norwegians, 
  that he's no Nazi, despite expressing some sympathy for what Hitler 
had been trying to achieve. Instead he styles himself a latter-day 
warrior of the Knights Templar, vanguard force of the medieaval 
Christian Crusades that briefly claimed the Holy Land for Christendom 
and made Jerusalem's streets run ankle deep with the blood of those they 
saw as usurpers. Even then, it's worth remembering that the blood 
spilled by the Crusaders was both Muslim and Jewish.
Despite the Crusader lineage to which he aspires, however, Breivik has 
no intention of driving Jews from Europe,  much less from the Holy Land. 
On the contrary, his manifesto hails Zionist Jews as a crucial ally in 
his battle between Christendom and Islam, proclaiming Israel as the 
frontline citadel in that war. Breivik's Crusade would have Jews on 
board for an existential fight against Islam; the mirror image of the 
"Crusader-Jewish" alliance that Osama bin Laden vowed to drive out of 
what he defined as Muslim lands.
In his rambling history drawn from a range of Islamophobic sources, 
Breivik paints a picture of Christians and Jews (and also Hindus) as 
fellow sufferers under Muslim oppression through the ages. He 
soft-pedals around the uncomfortable fact of Crusaders killing Jews, 
insisting that in the limited instances where such events occurred, they 
were the work of renegade bad apples.
Nor does he evade Hitler's Holocaust; he simply says the Fuhrer was 
wrong about the Jews:
     "Were the majority of the German and European Jews disloyal? Yes, 
at least the so called liberal Jews, similar to the liberal Jews today 
that opposes nationalism/Zionism and supports multiculturalism. Jews 
that support multiculturalism today are as much of athreat to Israel and 
Zionism (Israeli nationalism) as they are to us. So let us fight 
together with Israel, with our Zionist brothers against all 
anti-Zionists, against all culturalMarxists/multiculturalists. 
Conservative Jews were loyal to Europe and should have been rewarded. 
Instead, [Hitler] just targeted them all..."
Instead of trying to exterminate Europe's Jews, Breivik suggests Hitler 
ought to have enforced Zionism: "He could have easily worked out an 
agreement with the UK and France to liberate the ancient Jewish 
Christian lands with the purpose of giving the Jews back their ancestral 
lands," Breivik writes. "The UK and France would perhaps even contribute 
to such a campaign in an effort to support European reconciliation. The 
deportation of the Jews from Germany wouldn't be popular but eventually, 
the Jewish people would regard Hitler as a hero because he returned the 
Holy land to them."
Clearly, though, Breivik confines his philo-Semitism to Zionists, who he 
sees as fellow conservative nationalists in the war against Islam. As 
for the rest, adherents of multiculturalism, their fate should be the 
same as any other "traitors" to his Judeo-Christian Crusade.
"Never target a jew because he is a Jew," Breivik writes, "but rather 
because he is a ... traitor."
So Breivik doesn't hate all Jews. But he certainly hates most of us:
      "So, are the current Jews in Europe and US disloyal? The 
multiculturalist (nation-wrecking) Jews ARE while the conservative Jews 
ARE NOT. Aprox. 75% of European/US Jews support multiculturalism while 
aprox. 50% of Israeli Jews does the same. This shows very clearly that 
we must embrace the remainingloyal Jews as brothers rather than 
repeating the mistake of the [Nazis]."
Some of Israel's more liberal supporters branded Breivik's enthusiasm 
for Zionism a sham, and scoffed at his professed friendship. And they 
may have a point, at least in respect of the movement Breivik is trying 
to build. In a revealing passage, he warns that those still prone to 
anti-Semitic and Nazi ideologies should do their best to conceal their 
swastika tattoos:
     "DO NOT make this war about race or ethnicity. You have to keep in 
mind that mostpeople in Western Europe have been systematically 
indoctrinated for the last 4-5 decades... Many people would rather 
commit suicide or live under slavery/harsh dhimmitude [the status he 
says non-Muslims will hold under Islamic rule] than to become a Nazi or 
fight for the Nazi cause... Demonising Nazism has through 6 decades of 
indoctrination ... developed into an unconscious established truth. As 
such, and due to the actual negative and evil aspects of this ideology, 
it is pointless to try to resurrect it in any way or form... In order to 
connect with the ordinary man you must understand that he is a modern 
man who has travelled a several decade long journey through 
multiculturalist institutions. He is completely brainwashed so tread 
carefully and take the required precautions... The fear of Islamisation 
is themost pressing concern for most Europeans and Islam is NOT a race. 
So avoid talking about race. It is a cultural war, not a race war! If 
you do believe it is a race war, thenkeep it to yourself as it is 
un-doubtfully counterproductive to flag those views."
Of course, many right-wing Jews, while abhorring the terrorist violence 
used by the Breivik, nonetheless share his aversion to Islam and to 
multiculturalism. In his manifesto, Breivik expresses support for Pamela 
Geller, a leading voice of last year's movement to stop the construction 
of a mosque near the World Trade Center site in Manhattan. Geller has 
made common cause against Islam with such far-right European groups as 
the English Defense League and Dutch anti-immigration champion Geert 
Wilders -- groups also admired by Breivik.
And some Zionist conservatives, while unreservedly condemning Breivik's 
action, were also concerned to prevent it from obscuring an underlying 
message they support. The Jerusalem Post, a mainstream pro-government 
Israeli daily, wrote in an editorial, "the fact that this terrible 
tragedy was perpetrated by a right-wing extremist [should not] detract 
attention from the underlying problems faced not only by Norway, but by 
many Western European nations... While there is absolutely no 
justification for the sort of heinous act perpetrated this weekend in 
Norway, discontent with multiculturalism's failure must not be 
delegitimatized or mistakenly portrayed as an opinion held by only the 
most extremist elements of the Right."
On the contrary, Islamophobic and xenophobic attitudes to immigration 
have moved from being the exclusive preserve of the extremist right to 
being increasingly common in the mainstream right, which is why 
Breivik's actions pose a challenge.
Still, Breivik seems to acknowledge that his struggle against 
multiculturalism, whether among Jews or in the West more generally, is 
unlikely to be won through persuasion. His manifesto calls for violence 
precisely because he can't see anti-immigrant nationalist parties 
prevailing through the ballot box -- "the democratical (sic) struggle 
through dialogue has been lost."
The very reason that the majority of American Jews embrace 
multiculturalism, of course, is because they are its beneficiaries. Only 
the victory of American multiculturalism over American anti-Semitism 
made the United States safe for Jews. And, as Breivik himself tacitly 
admits,  the reason there's a taboo in the European mainstream on 
advocating open hostility to immigrants is precisely because the 
Holocaust taught the continent a brutal lesson in the horrific 
consequences that can flow from demonizing the "other".
Similarly, the revulsion prompted by Breivik's acts of terrorism is 
hardly likely to rally Western citizenry behind his Crusade -- any more 
successfully than Bin Laden's terrorism managed to rally the Muslim 
world to war against the West. Breivik and Bin Laden may seem like polar 
opposites, but in the end they're reading off the same "clash of 
cultures" script. It's a script in which, Breivik acknowledges, the 
majority of Jews -- and of Europeans -- want no part.
http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/07/26/norway-terror-accused-breivik-on-the-jewish-question/#ixzz1TErw9GoP
-- 
Sostieni Rete ECO
http://rete-eco.it/it/sostienici.html

esponente del FN di Le Pen a dichiarare condivisibili le sue idee.
indirettamente ha avuto altri "apprezzamenti":
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Norway-shooting-Glenn-Beck-compares-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html

 indoctrination ...
vedi, è la logica del bottegaio nazi, piuttosto che del nazi puro. Per
il nazi puro Hitler è vivo e lotta insieme a noi, per il bottegaio
prima si fanno i soldi, e poi si basa all'ideologia. Il prodotto
"nazismo" non ha mercato, troviamone uno più popolare e vinceremo la
lotta contro i comunisti, che è la spina dorsale di ogni nazismo


Si, ho letto.  A quanto pare Breivik ha scritto il suo manifesto, sempre 
che lo abbia scritto lui, fotografando dei processi già in corso.
Spero che questo abbia l'effetto di risvegliare qualche coscienza troppo 
pigra su ciò che sta avvenendo e sulle sue prevedibili conseguenze.


 lotta contro i comunisti, che è la spina dorsale di ogni nazismo
Più che un "bottegaio" lo definirei un politico/ideologo lucido e 
pragmatico.
Questo è preoccupante, perché se un nazi non è anche idiota può 
diventare pericoloso.
In ogni caso è evidente da anni che il "sionismo" considera i comunisti 
come nemici.
Breivik ha pragmaticamente preso atto di avere con esso un nemico in 
comune, e che questo può servire a far uscire dall'isolamento il 
neonazismo, coprendolo sotto le bandiere con la stella di David.


 Mi sono già risposto,
tu sì, il problema è chi fa parte del quarto quarto che non vuole
guardare allo specchio perchè sa che ci vedrebbe qualcuno di molto
simile al neonazi

 simile al neonazi
Già.  Il problema è come fare per convincerli a guardarsi.


 Già.  Il problema è come fare per convincerli a guardarsi.
Proseguire nel rispondersi da soli e postare sterminati pipponi
potrebbe essere un idea

 potrebbe essere un idea
intravedo grandi possibilità dalla lettura dell'edizione norvegese
aggiornata del MK....:D


E' un mattone spaventoso.  Peraltro, se il suo target sono i lettori 
nazi, Breivik ha completamente fallito l'obiettivo.
Al nazi piacciono le affermazioni apodittiche di personalità titaniche, 
ben condite di revanscismo e con un robusto contorno di eroismo.
Le note a margine e le bibliografie le considera roba da debosciati.


pigra su ciò che sta avvenendo e sulle sue prevedibili conseguenze.
ne dubito...