Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: un ringraziamento a Luca Logi

i suoi commenti a proposito del massacro di Har Nof mi hanno stimolato questa derasha
 
Let's do an experiment. How many people know who Baruch Goldstein was? I suspect many of us. Baruch Goldstein was the American-born Israeli religious extremist who perpetrated a massacre in a mosque, in the city of Hebron. That was 1994, and we still remember the crime, the outrage, the tragedy. 
And let's do another experiment. How many people here know who Abed and Ghassan Muhammad Abu Jamal were? I suspect they are less known to us than Baruch Goldstein. Abed and Ghassan Muhammad Abu Jamal are the names of the two murderers that a few days ago, in a synagogue in Jerusalem, slaughtered four Rabbis, and killed one Druze policemen, and wounded several other worshippers, among whom two, very seriously.
Now I have a question. How come that the name of a Jewish criminal, who committed a crime twenty years ago, is more famous than the names of Palestinian criminals, whose crime has been committed only a few days ago? 
Is a mosque different from a synagogue? No: they are both religious buildings. And for the record they are very similar, in both places there are no images, for example. 
Is killing Muslims in a mosque far more serious than killing Jews in a synagogue? And is a mosque in Hebron different from a synagogue in Jerusalem? 
And let me ask another question. What's the difference between Palestinian civilians killed in Gaza, and Israeli civilians killed in Jerusalem? There must be a difference. Otherwise why, throughout the whole summer, did the BBC show bodies of dead Palestinians, (some of them happened to be killed by the Syrian Army, and the news was about Gaza, but these are minor details), while the bodies of the Jewish victims of the Palestinian massacre, were reputed not worth showing. 
Actually, a few days ago, a BBC reporter brutally silenced a minister, a member of a government of a sovereign State, Naftali Bennet, and  reproached him because he was showing one photo of one victim of the massacre in Jerusalem.
How come, that the violence towards the Palestinians is always more serious, more tragic, more violent, than the violence that Jews suffer, generally by the hands of Muslims and Palestinians? Are the Guardian readers, the BBC viewers too sensitive, too impressionable, and for this reason the BBC, the Guardian, whoever runs the media, have chosen to hide the spectacle of murdered Jews, not to make our suffering public? Tell me, please, is our blood less red than their blood? 
Of course I know the answer. 
We're the bad guys. We are the settlers. We are the coloniser. We are the oppressor, they are the oppressed and they can do no wrong. Remember, we stole their land, therefore we should not complain when they kill us.
A journalist on Haaretz (where else?) had even noted that Har Nof, where the massacre took place, is not far from the infamous Deir Yassin, where a Jewish paramilitary group killed Palestinians in 1948, as if this makes any justification. 
When you read that article you cannot but empathise with the poor dispossessed Palestinians who had been waiting since 1948 to have justice, and then, because they have not had any justice, (you see, no one talks about Deir Yassin, nowadays),  poor fellows, what else can they do but murder four Rabbis in a synagogue. It's a matter of justice, after all. But no one seems to remember that Hebron, where Baruch Goldstein committed that crime in 1994 is the same Hebron where in 1929 an Arab mob killed 90 Jews, injured a larger number and raped an incredible high number of women and girls. 
As always, the violence against the Jews has no place in the mainstream narrative. 
Why?
Well, I am afraid we have to face the reality. There are people, pious and religious people, well meaning people, idealistic people, who think that the violence against the Jews is somehow just. That hurting Jews, marginalising Jews, silencing Jews, and killing Jews is a way to put in place a kind of historical justice. So we Jews must not complain.
Probably the problem begins with the narrative in this week's Torah portion. The very famous story of how Jacob, the younger of two twins, acquires his birthright that his brother Esau was expecting for himself. The story is well known: Isaac, the father, is on his deathbed. His sight had dimmed. Rebekah instructs Jacob to put on Esau's clothes, so Isaac blesses Jacob, depriving Esau of his birthright.
According to the Christian understanding of this story, Jacob who later became Israel and a Patriarch of the Jewish people had actually cheated his brother. He had been shrewd, astute, and clever, and in this way he had put his hands on something, which does not belong to him: blessings, possessions, and maybe land. In the Christian reading of this episode (and our society reads these stories through a Christian prism), Jacob, Israel, the father of the Jewish people is dishonest, he is the bad guy and Esau, poor Esau, he may be violent, but is a good fellow, and reacts harshly because he had been unjustly deprived of his own rights.
But we read the story in a different way. We Jews read the text closer and we discover very important details
It's not a minor detail in this story that their mother, Rebecca, had the two children in her womb for nine months, and she felt they were fighting each other, but then when they were born they were together, with Jakov holding on the heel of Esau. They were connected. 
It's not a minor detail in this story that the same mother, who knew of that connection only too well, wanted Jacob to wear Esau's clothes, so that Jacob actually becomes Esau at least for Isaac. And it's not a minor detail in this story that Isaac asks so many times: Who are you? Are you Esau? But then, in the final moment, when he wants to kiss him, he does not call him Esau anymore, but just beni, my son.
These are not minor details These passages, and many others, because in the Torah nothing is casual, are there to tell us that this is not, purely and simply, a story in which someone steals something from someone else, no. It's a story of a difficult relationship between two difficult brothers, in a difficult family, which is close-kin and difficult like Jewish families usually are. It is a story of connection. It is a story in which two brothers, while fighting each other, still dream to make peace at a certain point, in a future that both of them see terribly distant. It's a story of boundaries to be negotiated. It's a story of pain and suffering, it's a story of narratives that reclaim to be listened. In these narratives, is the connection of Jacob to the land of Israel, and his right, our right, to live and prosper. Go and tell the BBC.

 questa derasha
 
Dr. Zanardo, "Jews are news", the adage goes. I have often urged you and
the followers of this newsgroup to read some pages by Thomas Friedman
explaining why Jews are news - and as NY Times columnist and a Pulitzer
Prize winner, he probably knows something about news.
 
Really, Arabs have never had an extensive coverage in Western media or
even in western attention. You will remember George 'Dubya' Bush not
being able in 1999 to tell the name of the Pakistan president, but it
would have been unthinkable for Dubya not to remember the names of main
Israeli politicians. As Friedman writes, this is because Jewish life is
much more familiar to western readers than Arab life, because Holy Land
place names are more familiar than Arab place names; but above all
because Israeli people really crave for news coverage and volunteer for
it. It is not, as you seem to think, a cospiration against Jews.
 
It has took attacks as big as the September 2001 ones to force western
media to cover the Arab world with much more attention, and frankly
speaking the name of Mohammed Atta is probably more famous and infamous
now than the name of Baruch Goldberg (by the way, Atta killed much more
Jews than the Abu Jamals).
 
You should also consider that there are people actually committed to
keeping the memory of Baruch Goldstein. These are the people that made
his tomb a shrine and went in pilgrimage there. It took a law and five
years to remove the prayer area around his tomb. It is unlikely this
will happen to the Abu Jamals - their bodies were not even released to
their families. It is not even in the Israelis' best interest that their
names are rememberd, you would not want to trigger other idiots to
emulate them. You may want to remember the names of their victims, but
their names are better forgotten as fast as possible, believe me.
 
A couple of notes. First, as for your reading of the Jacob and Esau
story, you are attributing an interpretation of it to Christians. I am
sorry to tell you that, after attending Italian Catholic churches Sunday
after Sunday for about half a century, I do not remember a single
istance of an Italian catholic priest preaching anything like what you
are writing. I strongly doubt that ordinary believers attending church
on Sunday are exposed to such a line of teaching. Of course, I cannot
vouch for non-Catholic churches. 
Second: yes, there is a big difference between Palestinian civilians
killed in Gaza and Israeli civilians killed in Jerusalem. It is called
order of magnitude. There are two orders of magnitude more Palestinian
civilians killed.
 
 
 
 
 

 Dr. 
Dear Mr Logi
I am glad you were never exposed to any form of Catholic antisemitism. But this does not imply that Antisemitism is merely a thing of the past. May I remind you that only this year, more than 300 Italian Jews have left your Country to emigrate to Israel and antisemitism is listed among the reasons. 
 
Anyway, I was referring to a reading of the story of Jacob which is to be found e.g. in the 1994 movie by Ermanno Olmi, which is a Catholic, produced by Mr Bernabei, who comes from a prominent Catholic family, broadcasted and sponsored by Italy's national public broadcasting company (whose Board is almost completely run by Catholic politicians, many of them members of Catholic parties). But you can can find the same reading in many other places, the Battistero formelle in Florence, a masterpiece of the Renaissance and in the Baroque painting by Govert Flick. I suspect these cultural items are more influential than your local parish priest. 
According to such a reading, Jacob actually stole his birthright. Generations of theologians have indeed dealt with the place of Jacob's misdeed in the general (God's) plan of things. 
Which is an intriguing subject in itself and I, for instance, would be interested to know more about how Catholic exegetes deal with.
 
But that was not my main point, in case you did not notice. I actually pointed out to the general, widespread, and media-fed Antisemitic stereotype, according which the Jewish State is a illegitimate, Zionism is a colonial enterprise, the birth and the existence of the Jewish State is a prevarication to be addressed as soon as possible, depriving the Jews of their right to self-determination -and your previous fellow citizens of a place to take refuge. Whether this Antisemitic legend is grounded in the mainstream reading of Jacob's story is a point worth discussing. 
 
Before we continue our discussion, anyway, I'd like to hear your opinion on that stereotype, which actually implies silencing the Jewish narrative; and I am sorry to say you do not pay so much attention to the Jewish narrative e.g. regarding the connection, and the rights, of the Jewish people to the land of Israel. 
 
On a whole lot of points, your reply sounds more than confused. We are talking about the Middle East, what the name of the Pakistani president has to do with it?  Who is Baruch Goldberg? 
If "Jews are news", then why violence against Jews is not prime-time subject? Because of the order of magnitude? Does it mean we Jews need to die in larger number, so that the media will pay attention to us?  Because we Jews are a tiny minority, and the order of magnitude of our deaths will never reach a proper attention threshold, which means that is never worth pay attention to Jews' deaths. I really hope this is not what your parish priest preach about... And if it's all about magnitude, and compassion for the poor Palestinians, then what about Palestinians killed in much greater numbers, in the same Biblical places (as a Catholic you are probably familiar with the name of Damascus). We don't see their bodies so often on TV, as those killed in Gaza. I suspect this has to do with the stereotype mentioned above. As in the documented cases of forgery: corpses of people bombed elsewhere, shown as victims of the Jews
 
 As you seem to struggle with English language, (what exactly is a "cospiration agains the Jews"?) I will be glad to continue this conversation in our native tongue. Me la cavo ancora bene con l'italiano.
 
Per favore, chiarisca la Sua opinione a proposito del diritto del popolo ebraico alla autodeterminazione. As an Israeli citizen, I don't want to loose my time with anti-Zionists. 
 
Cordiali saluti, warmest regards, shalom.

 And let me ask another question. What's the difference between Palestinian civilians killed in Gaza, and Israeli civilians killed in Jerusalem? There must be a difference. Otherwise why, throughout the whole summer, did the BBC show bodies of dead Palestinians, (some of them happened to be killed by the Syrian Army, and the news was about Gaza, but these are minor details), while the bodies of the Jewish victims of the Palestinian massacre, were reputed not worth showing.
 
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html
 
 
 
fe...@delenda.net
 
-- 
It was a Tower of Babel populated by American bands who wanted to be
British, British bands who wanted to be German, and German bands who
wanted to be robots.
http://delendanet.blogspot.com
 

 
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html
 
 
amazing, Si parla degli ebrei morti solo quando ce ne sono abbastanza e siccome gli ebrei sono una minoranza, non ce ne saranno mai abbastanza. Non e' antisemitismo, e' logica.


Ah, allora l'arma demografica dei palestinesi si è rivelata efficace? 
Strano, fino a ieri tutte le notizie sembravano indicare il contrario..


Eh? 

 I don't want to loose my time with anti-Zionists. 
 
 
I believe that the correct form would be "lose my time", but, again,
please prove me wrong. Dr. Zanardo, I already wrote you that it would be
inequitable to grant a people a self-determination right, and then deny
the very same right to other peoples. And I suspect self-determination
rights can be exercised only in the framework of international
agreements. But as I did not receive from you a meaningful reply, I will
not waste my time on this topic.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
Dear Mr Logi
 
I am glad to learn that, in your experience, parish priests do not usually preach against Israel. And thank you for the information re: Genesis 25:29-34 not being part of the main liturgy. I understand that where attention is not paid to such a passage, Antisemitism and Anti-Zionism are non existent. As for when the opposite happens (namely: the story is understood in antisemitic terms) then the opposite happens as well.
Thank you for proving my point. 
 
I have made extremely clear that the most important lessons to learn from a close reading of the story of Jacob are about connection, and boundaries to be negotiated. 
This of course does not mean that the right to self determination of the Jewish people should be conditioned to our well-behaving, or to the Arab recognition, which everyone knows is still to happen. 
 
Unfortunately, it's exactly what you wrote, parroting once again the Arab propaganda (see the previous post, delving on the magnitude of Israeli crimes).
 
Let me repeat that hundreds of Italian Jews are leaving Italy. Among the reasons of such an exodus stands the endemic antisemitism on the Internet. 
http://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2014/11/21/italian-jewish-migration-to-israel-booms_48c946ce-bf4b-408e-89d3-9820e5204eaa.html
 
 
With your tortuous reasoning, and actual denial of Jewish rights, you are, proving my point and prof. Della Pergola's as well. 
 
best wishes 
 
 
 
 

 Thank you for proving my point. 
 
 
Dr. Zanardo, 
your point is so fluid that it is difficult to understand what you
consider proven. So, if you are confortable with your own point, let me
stay my opinion.
 
As for Jewish self-determination, I would be glad if somebody explains
how it can be harmonized with the right to self-determination of Arab
people in the same zone. The point is not Arab consensus, but the very
existence of Arabs. They exists, and they are there, like it or not - it
is a fact and not propaganda. Your positions are generally reasonable
only if we postulate some form of magic that could make Arabs disappear
or reduced to a token presence. Or we have to suppose that in your mind
Arabs have no right to self-determination.
 
I have nothing to object to Italian Jews making aliyah to Israel. There
may be sensible reasons to do it; but security does not look to be one.
Rome is way safer than Jerusalem. I suppose that economic reasons are
the main cause of the increase in emigration numbers - the very same
reasons that make so many talented young people flee Italy to better
places to work. 
 
 
 
 
 


 
So here we are. According to Mr. Logi, the Jewish people has no rights to self-determination. Because of the Arabs. 
 
Thank for clarifying your point, which is (what a surprise) the same of the Arab propaganda. As if Arab could not be citizens of a Jewish State (for the record: they are) the same way Tyrolese  and Roma can be citizen of the Italian State.
 
As per the reasons why Italian Jews emigrate to Israel (for which we don't need permission from yours): may I suggest something quite extraordinary for you? Try pay attention of what they themselves say. I tend to think prof. Della Pergola knows his subject better than you. 
 
 
 

 wrote:
 

Dr. Zanardo, thanks for making clear that you want self-determination,
but only for a single people. Please do not quote the case of Tyrolese
people: their status was defined in the framework of an international
agreement (De Gasperi/Gruber); exactly what you would not want to happen
to Israel. I suspect that had Israeli given Palestinians only half of
the money Italians have given Tyrolese, there would have been no bombs,
no missiles and no intifadas. No, Italian Tyrol is not a feasible
example.
 
I had reasons to suspect that 1,1% of Italian Jews have emigrated to
Israel mostly for economic reasons after I observed that even in my own
industry 1% of people - the same percentage - emigrates every year to
foreign countries for economic reasons as well (*). I know you do not
like Haaretz as they do not conform to your way of thinking, but they
write it as well:
 
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.628093
 
 
I am also wondering if the figure quoted by Dalla Pergola (300 persons)
includes non-Jewish Italians emigrating to Israel. They are only a few
people (I happen to know two cases) but we are talking about small
numbers in any case. 
 
 
 
(*) From these numbers I could legitimately draw the conclusion that
persecution of classical musicians by the Renzi government is as bad in
Italy as antisemitism, but I won't.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Il giorno lunedì 24 novembre 2014 06:56:21 UTC, Il vendicatore della Polverosa ha scritto:
 
 
Mr. Logi, I urge you not to misquote me. I already mention negotiation and boundaries; and I mention also the right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel. As it happens, you disagree with the latter, and you mis-read the former. 
This is called double standard. I wonder whether you ever dreamed of asking to any Palestinian to recognise the rights of the Jewish people to self-determination.
Antisemitism in Italy (non existent for you; a serious matter of concern for prof. Della Pergola) is obviously something you want to downplay. 
You are a Catholic citizen of a Catholic country. The experience of being part of a minority is foreign to you. Mr Logi, I urge you to  check your privilege, as they say nowadays, before lecturing any Jew who dares to voice his/her own opinion.
 
 
 

 
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.628093
 
 
the source quoted here is the Jewish Telegraph Agency (see? There three capital letters at the beginning: J-T-A). And the piece of news consists in the same ANSA press release you were challenging. 
 
Indeed, the JTA reporter merely checks the numbers of Italian alyah, and does not challenge in any way the findings of prof. Della Pergola about antisemitism online in Italy. A matter probably you are very familiar with. 
 
Mr Logi, beside checking your privilege, you should check your sources too. Before quoting them. I mean.


Eh, in .IL+territori ci sono 6-7 mln di israeliti, e 4 mln di arabi, 
dunque non so di che minoranza parli.


 in the same ANSA press release you were challenging.
 
 
Mr. Zanardo, read the article carefully. 
 
"The Jewish Agency affirmed to JTA that the figure was accurate."
 
This means that JTA made some indipendent research on the ANSA press
release. They contacted the Jewish Agency to check the ANSA piece of
news. They questioned Italian Jewish leaders that told that the economic
crisis is a powerful motivation to make aliyah, especially in Rome where
many Jews run small business. 
 
And there is a question that Prof. Della Pergola, ANSA, you, JTA simply
do not ask: how bad is Italian emigration in general? Very bad. There
are more people fleeing from Italy than immigrants arriving, due to the
bad economic downturn.
 
 
 

 bad economic downturn.
 
You'll probably not aware that every economic downturn, especially in Catholic countries, brings to an increase of antisemitic attacks. But, generally speaking, you don't care that much about antisemitism and Jewish victims anyway. 
 

 dunque non so di che minoranza parli.
 
quindi la maggioranza sono... ? 
 

Il 24/11/2014 11:21, L'Archivista della Galilea ha scritto:

public class Whichiswhich {
 
	/**
	 * @param args
	 */
	public static void main(String[] args) {
		// TODO Auto-generated method stub
		long   israelites = 7000000;
		long   arabs = 4000000;
 
		if (israelites > arabs) {
			System.out.println("The israelites are the majority!");
		}
		if (israelites < arabs) {
			System.out.println("The arabs are the majority!");
		}
		if (israelites == arabs) {
			System.out.println("It's a draw!");
