Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: Benny Morris...

Interessante lettura, specialmente il QA. Commenti (non stupidi) are highly 
appreciated.
Benny Morris says he was always a Zionist. People were mistaken when they
labeled him a post-Zionist, when they thought that his historical study on
the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem was intended to undercut the
Zionist enterprise. Nonsense, Morris says, that's completely unfounded. Some
readers simply misread the book. They didn't read it with the same
detachment, the same moral neutrality, with which it was written. So they
came to the mistaken conclusion that when Morris describes the cruelest
deeds that the Zionist movement perpetrated in 1948 he is actually being
condemnatory, that when he describes the large-scale expulsion operations he
is being denunciatory. They did not conceive that the great documenter of
the sins of Zionism in fact identifies with those sins. That he thinks some
of them, at least, were unavoidable.
Two years ago, different voices began to be heard. The historian who was
considered a radical leftist suddenly maintained that Israel had no one to
talk to. The researcher who was accused of being an Israel hater (and was
boycotted by the Israeli academic establishment) began to publish articles
in favor of Israel in the British paper The Guardian.
Whereas citizen Morris turned out to be a not completely snow-white dove,
historian Morris continued to work on the Hebrew translation of his massive
work "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001,"
which was written in the old, peace-pursuing style. And at the same time
historian Morris completed the new version of his book on the refugee
problem, which is going to strengthen the hands of those who abominate
Israel. So that in the past two years citizen Morris and historian Morris
worked as though there is no connection between them, as though one was
trying to save what the other insists on eradicating.
Both books will appear in the coming month. The book on the history of the
Zionist-Arab conflict will be published in Hebrew by Am Oved in Tel Aviv,
while the Cambridge University Press will publish "The Birth of the
Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited" (it originally appeared, under the
CUP imprint, in 1987). That book describes in chilling detail the atrocities
of the Nakba. Isn't Morris ever frightened at the present-day political
implications of his historical study? Isn't he fearful that he has
contributed to Israel becoming almost a pariah state? After a few moments of
evasion, Morris admits that he is. Sometimes he really is frightened.
Sometimes he asks himself what he has wrought.
He is short, plump, and very intense. The son of immigrants from England, he
was born in Kibbutz Ein Hahoresh and was a member of the left-wing Hashomer
Hatza'ir youth movement. In the past, he was a reporter for the Jerusalem
Post and refused to do military service in the territories. He is now a
professor of history at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Be'er Sheva.
But sitting in his armchair in his Jerusalem apartment, he does not don the
mantle of the cautious academic. Far from it: Morris spews out his words,
rapidly and energetically, sometimes spilling over into English. He doesn't
think twice before firing off the sharpest, most shocking statements, which
are anything but politically correct. He describes horrific war crimes
offhandedly, paints apocalyptic visions with a smile on his lips. He gives
the observer the feeling that this agitated individual, who with his own
hands opened the Zionist Pandora's box, is still having difficulty coping
with what he found in it, still finding it hard to deal with the internal
contradictions that are his lot and the lot of us all.
Rape, massacre, transfer
Q. Benny Morris, in the month ahead the new version of your book on the
birth of the Palestinian refugee problem is due to be published. Who will be
less pleased with the book - the Israelis or the Palestinians?
"The revised book is a double-edged sword. It is based on many documents
that were not available to me when I wrote the original book, most of them
from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new material shows is that
there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought.
To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of
April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was
the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated
explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy
the villages themselves.
"At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued by
the Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels to
remove children, women and the elderly from the villages. So that on the one
hand, the book reinforces the accusation against the Zionist side, but on
the other hand it also proves that many of those who left the villages did
so with the encouragement of the Palestinian leadership itself."
Q. According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there
in 1948?
"About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her
father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried
to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were
raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura,
south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the
country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle
area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of
times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was
involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large
proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the
victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that
the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole
story. They are just the tip of the iceberg."
Q. According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were
perpetrated in 1948?
"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the
numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing.
Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found
in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village
of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village
with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.
"The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod
(250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no
unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were
perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had
been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half
of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in
October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al
Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high
concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an
orderly fashion.
"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took
part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received
permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to
take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of
murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who
did the massacres."
Q. What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation
Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?
"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the
commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to
his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this
action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in
Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with
Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was
signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the
headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."
K 

 appreciated.
Un commento č questo.
La guerra del 1948 č stata una guerra di eserciti e milizie contro
eserciti, milizie e *popolazioni civili* avversarie.
Per chi fa storia seriamente, sostenere l'innocenza di Israele in ogni
trasferimento e in ogni espulsione non č piů storicamente possibile.
Ma fare storia seriamente significa anche vedere chi ha cominciato
quella guerra e fare un paragone tra il trattamento dei civili nelle due
zone di occupazione. 

 wrote in message 
news:1gje1ge.ldo1yk1e0hiwwN%bri...@despammed.com...

Fammi capire, stai dicendo che Morris non 'fa' storia seriamente? Perhaps in 
questo caso non si sta analizzando chi ha iniziato, ma cosa e' accaduto 
veramente durante il conflitto.
Si parla di massacri, stupri e trasferimenti forzati.
E' chiaro che in un conflitto, nessuna parte e' innocente al 100%.
Tuttavia, capire cosa accadde agli inizi del conflitto aiuta a capire il 
perche del deadlock di oggi.
Qualcosa mi dice che la storia vera e' qualcosa di piu' di quella che ti 
hanno fatto credere, ovvero:
1.Israele ha diritto di avere una territorio proprio.
2. La Palestina risulta il territorio migliore per tre fondamentali ragioni:
religione, cultura e politica. Religione e cultura sono facilmente 
intuibili. Politica perche' israele rappresenta un 'baluardo' occidentale in 
MO.
3. Israele e' stato attaccato dai paesi arabi senza aver creato alcuna 
provocazione.
4. Per questo ha vinto la guerra ed i territori (anche se per qualche motivo 
non sono stati riconosciuti dall ONU).
5. Infine, israele combatte contro il terrorismo palestinese...
Come in tutte le guerre, donne, vecchi e soprattutto bambini non le iniziano 
(non sono responsabili). Massacrarli e' un crimine immondo...
Mi sa che hanno ragione sia Namib che Whiplash. Morris ha bisogno di essere 
approfondito (insieme alle altre fonti, ovviamente)...
K 

 K 


Anche tu cerca di aprire un po' gli orizzonti...vedrai che scoprirai che ci 
sono tante verita'....
K 

 Come era la situazione petrolifera in quei tempi?
Che ca**i c'entra la situazione petrolifera lo sai anche spiegare?????
:)
-Stefano


Nessuno te lo nega (e non bisogna essere persone 'serie' per ammetterlo).
Qui si parla di un dato di fatto. Di un comportamento molto in voga, 
presente non solo in questo NG, ma anche su altri (internazionali). Perfino 
su full disclosure ti hanno etichettato...
Devi ammettere che la cosa da' alle palle...
K

 K 
Tb

>
Come quella che sia arabi (in senso lato) che sionisti si sono comportati 
come delle merde...
K 

 K 


Son qui, e chi si muove...
K 

 Le merdate dei terroristi arabi sono sempre state evidenti 
Non pare lo siano a te e alle tue misteriose fonti alternative, che
raccontano della guerra di aggressione ebraica del 1948... Stralol.
Tb


Quando finisci di rotolarti per le risate, fammi un fischio...
K 

 Quando finisci di rotolarti per le risate, fammi un fischio...
Ho finito. Mi dici quali erano quelle famosi fonti?
Tb

 wrote in message 
news:1gjggsx.vgry09f32etzN%bri...@despammed.com...

Ti do delle clues:
Il punto non e' chi ha iniziato FORMALMENTE la guerra, ma chi ha iniziato a 
rompere i coglioni.
Other clue: Morris ne parla...
Other clue: Questi nomi ti ricordano qualcosa: Banda Stern (e non mi 
riferisco a quel coglione del suino) e the Haganah...
Se continui a tagliare i posts tralasciando solo quello che ti fa comodo 
spezzi tutti gli anelli di collegamento. E' un trucco vecchio... tipico 
della propaganda sionista!!! LoL!!
K 

 wrote:

Ah, ho capito. 
La guerra del 1948 l'ha causata la Banda Stern "rompendo i coglioni".
Questo dicono le tue fonti alternative?
Mi sembra un'analisi abbastanza unbiased.
Per caso sai anche contro chi combatteva la Banda Stern, prima del 1948?
Credo di avertelo già chiesto una volta, magari lo trovi su qualcuno dei
tuoi siti unbiased, tipo 
fuckthezionist.com
.
Tb

 wrote in message 
news:1gjghet.10c17xy1bee9eqN%bri...@despammed.com...

Come no? Combattevano contro i Brits... E l'eccidio di Deir Yassin ti 
ricorda qualcosa? Clue: pre 1948... Ora fai un po di conti e dimmi chi ha 
rotto i coglioni per primo...
Oppure hai qualche informazione 'alternativa' proveniente dai tuoi unbiased 
site tipo 
fuckthegoy.com
?
K 


Yep, u r right (sometimes it happens...)
Avevo letto da qualche parte che era avvenuta nel 1946...ma non sono 
riuscito a trovare la fonte...Sai com'e', queste fonti biased ci sono e poi 
scompaiono nel nulla.
Certo che e' un lavoraccio essere anti - sionisti - fondamentalisti e 
'bigottisti'... specialmente con questi siti antisionisti che sparano 
cazzate e ti fanno fare figure di merda...
K 


Cazzo, il sito e' stato 'hackerato'! Ora e' ridirected to 
killthefuckiggoybeasts.il
K 

 K 
Tb

 wrote in message 
news:1gjh8us.1hk2iou1fq6ikoN%bri...@despammed.com...

Going to the 'cold kiwi rally'...
Ti rispondo quando ritorno (se ritorno)...
Seeya
Tony