Newsgroup: it.politica.internazionale
Titolo: L'Olocausto prossimo venturo?

E quando i nostri figli ci chiederanno: "Dov'eravate, voi?", cosa potremo
rispondere?
Namib
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=
22175
Islamophobia: A second Holocaust in the making
14-02-2006
By Bouthaina Shaaban *
The Daily Star:
As German leaders traditionally do on visits to Israel, Chancellor Angela
Merkel recently visited Yad Vashem, Israel's memorial to the Holocaust.
There she termed the Holocaust "a source of deep shame" for Germany, and
spoke of Israel's existence as a pillar of German politics.
Germany, once again, apologizes for the Holocaust and is willing to do what
it takes to redeem itself - even if it was financing a second Holocaust
against the Palestinian people; a typical manifestation of the European
guilt-ridden political conscience. And typically, we, Arabs and Muslims are
to pay the price.
It seems like a new crusade has started against Arabs and Muslims in the
wake of September 11, 2001, led by neo-European Nazism. The victims are no
longer the Jews, but Muslims spread over Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine,
Pakistan, and anywhere around the globe.
The wars, bombings and secret prisons where suspect Muslims are tortured and
killed are but few aspects of the "crusade" U.S. President George W. Bush
launched. Was it not for so much contradictory evidences, we could have
passed it for another of his many misfortunate slips of the tongue.
Along a number of unjustified wars, sanctions and pressure policies against
Arab and Muslim countries, intensive media campaigns rally to deform the
face of Muslims and Islam. Even as citizens of Western democracies, Muslims
find themselves subject to legal and political acts of hatred and
harassment.
Some of the European official policies against Muslims in Europe, such as
deportation and deprivation of citizenship, have made some Jewish leaders
warn that they are "the same taken against Jews in 1930s."
The French Historian Gerard Nueril reminds us that both Hitler and Mussolini
deprived Jews of citizenship, and he warns that "the procedures taken
against Muslims in France today strongly remind us of how France treated the
Jews in the thirties of last century."
Denmark has become the country heading the spear of hatred against Islam and
Muslims. In the 1990s, the Danish Popular Party considered Muslims in
Denmark a growing segment of the population - a "troubling problem." After
September 11, other Danish parties started sharing the same concern, and
talking against "Muslims in Denmark" became a tool in election campaigns.
The media started focusing on emigrant problems and accused Muslims of
"violence" and "extremism." Even the Queen herself joined the choir and
expressed worry over the problems that her "Muslim" subjects represented.
A Danish Popular Party candidate in Copenhagen, Luis Ferivrette, described
Danish Muslims as "cancerous disease in the Danish society."
The party's spokesperson, Martin Henriksen, said that "Islam, since its
beginning, has been a terrorist movement," and he warned against allowing
Danish Muslims candidacy to the Parliament or city councils. Henriksen
describes Danish Muslim converts as "moral criminals" and takes pride in the
fact that "criticizing Islam is the official policy of [his] party."
Within this context, the cartoon contest organized by Yandposten came as a
natural result.
Facts show that Europe is launching a new Holocaust against Muslims around
the world. What is happening to Muslims in Europe today is almost identical
with what the Jews suffered at the beginning of the century. Muslims in
Western countries find themselves obliged to change their names and suppress
their religious identity to avoid a racist witch-hunt against them.
"Freedom of the press" and "freedom of expression" do not permit violating
or ridiculing other people's sanctities. Otherwise, no European country
would have banned the mere discussion of the Jewish Holocaust.
The Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him, brought to humanity a message of
peace, mercy and tolerance. The Muslim civilization that ensued from Mecca
set the foundation for today's scientific and social development. What did
those who dared insult him bring to humanity in comparison? They only
brought hatred and anger and intolerance. Their actions, like those of Nazi
Germany, should only be "a source of deep shame," as Merkel put it.
However, unlike the descendents of the culprits of the Holocaust, their
conscience is not guilt-ridden yet with this new crime against humanity.
When such guilt will start rectifying Western politics toward Muslims is a
disquieting question.
Nazis accused Jews of violence and terrorism. They launched media wars of
hatred against their faith and sanctities. The result was the Holocaust; one
of the ugliest crimes against humanity. As Europe has recently passed a law
that forbids doubting the Holocaust, today it should pass another law that
bans racist insults against Muslims and Islam. It is more prudent to prevent
the making of a new Holocaust, than to wait for more European apologies to
Jews and Muslims alike.
* Dr. Bouthaina Shaaban is the Syrian expatriates minister.

second Holocaust against the Palestinian people;
Classico coglione.
-Stefano

Un ministro del governo Siriano non e' proprio la fonte piu' credibile,
in questo caso.
E infatti un'articolo MOLTO migliore sull'argomensto e' stato
pubblicato da un giornalista Britannico, di origini Pakistane.  Ma la
conclusione, ahime', e' la stessa.
Ho parlato, in altri post, di come l'Islamofobia di oggi abbia molto in
comune, storicamente culturalmente, con l'Antisemitismo di un secolo
fa.
Speriamo che i due "movimenti" non portino alle stesse conclusioni.
---------------
Islamophobia is not a uniquely British disease: across Europe,
liberals openly express prejudice against Muslims. Do new pogroms
beckon?
Ziauddin Sardar reports from Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and
France.
      It's a bitterly cold night and the centre of Dortmund is
deserted. On
weekdays, says our taxi driver, everything closes by ten o'clock. It is
not
easy to find a place to eat. Eventually, he drops us at the Cava
restaurant
in Lindemannstrabe. Just one couple punctuate the ultra-chic of this
postmodern bistro. We sit near them and order our food. Dortmund,
Germany is
the first po
rt of call on my journey through the industrial heartland of
northern Europe. After the terrorist attacks in London and the riots in
the
French suburbs, I want to assess the racial divide, the fear and the
loathing that permeate so much of our European continent.
      Christoph Simmons is an insurance broker in his forties; his
girlfriend, Baneta Lisiecka, is a Polish immigrant. They invite us to
join
them for a night out in their "green metropolis". We drive in
Christoph's
sports car to Limette, "the only pub in Dortmund open till 6am".
Dortmund is
a multicultural city integrated into the global economy, explains
Christoph;
this former mining town is now a thriving base for high-tech research.
"Our
immigrant communities are well integrated," he says. Greeks, Italians,
Spaniards, Poles live in proverbial perfect harmony with Germans. There
is
only one problem: the Turks - "they don't integrate". Baneta thinks
they are
"mostly criminals" and she is afraid of them. Christoph also says:
"They are
conservative; their women cover their heads. The Koran tells them to
murder
Christians." Has he ever met a Turk, I ask. "No," he says. "They stick
together and never come into our pubs." I talk to other people in
Limette.
Jasmine, a Catholic from Corsica, sums up the overall feeling. "I don't
like
Turks. I don't know why. I just don't like them."
      And yet I discover that these open manifestations of racism do
not see
m to be reciprocated by German Turks. At the Orhan Narghile Grill Cafe,
in
the Turkish part of Dortmund, I meet Suniye Ozdemir, a single mother
born in
Germany. "I don't know," she says with genuine amazement, "why the
Germans
hate us so much. I don't know why they are scared of the Turkish
people.
Maybe they're jealous. May-be they're afraid we will steal their jobs."
She
introduces me to a group of girls from the Helmholtz Grammar School.
Aged
between 16 and 18, these girls are confident and articulate, and they
speak
good English. They want to become professionals and to succeed. Gulsum,
who
wears a hijab, says they experience racism every day - at school from
their
teachers, on the bus, on the streets. Her friend, who does not wear a
hijab,
says: "We were born in Germany and we are Germans. We stick together
for
protection, to avoid hostility."
      Throughout my journey, from Germany to the Netherlands, onwards
to
Belgium and finally into France - the object of much recent attention -
I
meet people all too ready to describe Muslims in the colours of
darkness.
Islamophobia is not a British disease: it is a common, if diverse,
European
phenomenon. It is the singular rock against which the tide of European
liberalism crashes.
      There are common themes but also subtle differences in the way
each
nation's history influences its people's present attitude to immigrant
communities. Much of this is rooted in the various colonial histories.
Germany came late to nationalism and colonialism, and caught a bad case
of
both. In the 1880s it scrambled briefly and brutally for colonies to
prove
its importance as a nation. The roots of its ethnic problems lie
deeper,
however, in its history and cultural psyche. Many of the erstwhile
principalities and tiny statelets that formed Germany were part of
Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire, a unity forged under siege and in
reaction
to the perceived threat of Muslim civilisation. The Germans embraced
the
Crusades with great vigour: the first, infamously, commenced at home
with
pogroms against the Jews. The crusading motif is as important to the
German
self-image as it ever was; the hatred of Turks I heard was often
expressed
in crusading language - even if couched in liberal terms.
      Germany's present ethnic-minority population is the legacy of its
wartime military alliance with Turkey. Under the gastarbeiter ("guest
worker") policy, the Turks were good enough to be imported en masse to
rebuild war-torn Germany but not good enough to be given German
nationality.
They existed outside the ambit of German identity. It was the
continuation
of racial purity in another form. Now that they are issued with
national
identity cards, now that Germany has liberalised, is the concept of
what it
is to be German, I wondered, still a matter of ein Volk - one people,
the
Nazi notion of racial purity?
      "I am afraid it is," says Wolfram Richter, professor of economics
at
the University of Dortmund. There are many factors why the Turks are
hated,
Richter says. He cites social factors such as Turks shopping only in
Turkish
shops, cultural factors such as their women covering themselves,
language
problems such as the older generation of Turks still not speaking
German.
They are seen as disloyal. Then there is the "Anatolia bride syndrome":
German Turks tend to go back to Anatolia to get married and bring their
wives to Germany. But the overall factor in the fear and loathing of
Turks,
Richter says, is old-fashioned racism. "I am afraid we have not learned
from
our history. My main fear is that what we did to Jews we may now do to
Muslims. The next holocaust would be against Muslims."
      Across the border into the Netherlands and to Eindhoven, a lively
cultural city with a young population, where fear of Muslims is equally
evident. There are fewer than 5,000 Muslims in Eindhoven and they are
all
hidden away in the Woensel district. But try to get a taxi driver to
take
you there. Kim de Peuyssenaece, our driver, is adamant: "It's a
dangerous
area where you could get killed," she says. She has a Moroccan
boyfriend,
whose picture she displays on her mobile phone, yet she dismisses
Moroccans
as "mostly criminals" who are "ruining our country". She drops us in
front
of a Moroccan bar next to the new, clinically structured red-light
district,
a kind of John Lewis-meets-porn. Inside the Safrak Bar and Cafe, the
atmosphere is thick with smoke. Old men sit playing backgammon,
chequers and
dominoes. "We are not part of the Dutch community," says the bar owner,
a
tall, aggressive Moroccan who does not want to give his name. "They
don't
treat us with respect and dignity. They think we're separate. So we are
separate."
      That the Dutch see Muslims as a separate community is not all
that
surprising. Holland has a brutal colonial history just as long as
Britain's,
and the jewel in its crown was the most populous Muslim nation on
earth:
Indonesia. The Islamist insurgency in Aceh is a legacy of the people's
long
war with the Dutch, a war the colonisers never won and never ended.
)THIS
IS NOT TRUE VAN HEUTZ PACIFIED THE AEREA BY BUTCHERING THOUSANDS OF THE
REBELS' 
http://home.iae.nl/users/arcengel/NedIndie/heutsz.htm
       Slavery and compulsory labour on Dutch plantations underpinned a
strict system of separating the rulers from those they ruled. The Dutch
were
interested in categorising and neatly arranging the Otherness of those
they
ruled, the better to maintain their separateness and dependence.
Colonial
policy now reverberates at home.
      In another part of Eindhoven we meet Jamal Tushi, an IT
consultant in
his thirties. "They treat us like colonial subjects," he says. "For
them,
all Muslims are terrorists." Tushi was born and bred in Eindhoven and
speaks
perfect Dutch, yet finds it hard to get work. "If you are a young
Moroccan,
forget the idea of getting a job," he says. During job interviews, the
much-acclaimed Dutch liberalism evaporates. "They want to know what
kind of
Muslim you are. Do you pray? Do you go to the mosque?"
      Dutch liberalism was meant only for the Dutch. Today it extends
to
prostitution and drugs, but not to Muslim immigrants. It's like the
"ethical
policy" Holland developed for its colonies. The policy was about Dutch
superiority; it had little to do with the reality of life for the
people
they ruled, and made little difference to their condition. The colonies
served the metropolis, regardless of how they were spoken of and
discussed.
The language of ethics was always about the colonising "Us" and not the
colonised "Them", just as all discussion about multiculturalism in
Holland
is at base about what kind of country "We" are, now that we have let
"Them"
in. Inclusion, then or now, was not the point. Dutch liberalism is
about how
good and open "We" are - not an open negotiation about what liberalism
means
to and for minority communities.
      We take the train to Antwerp. Belgium is an interesting case of
multiculturalism, split as it is between the Dutch/Flemish-speaking
Flemings
and French-speaking Walloons. There is also a religious divide, between
Catholics and Protestants. In 1994 a revised constitution introduced
devolution in an attempt to tackle the long-standing division between
the
communities, recognising three provinces and language groups. However,
dealing with its own fractures of multiculturalism does not mean
opening up
to immigrant minority communities.
      In downtown Antwerp we come across Noor Huda and her friend
Fatimah
Zanuti. Huda, in her early twenties, is a medical technician at a
hospital
in the city. "Multiculturalism in Belgium is meant for the Belgians,"
she
says. "We are not considered Belgian." Huda was born in Antwerp, as
were her
parents. "But being a third-generation Belgian is not relevant. We are
still
colonial subjects." Racism and hatred of Muslims are so endemic in
Belgium,
she says, that "you have to constantly guard what you say. We are
always
afraid to speak our mind. You do not have the right to say what you
want to
say."
      The barriers in Belgium, as elsewhere in Europe, are born of
colonial
history and attitudes. And Belgium has one of the most vicious and
inhuman
of all colonial histories. Conrad's Heart of Darkness and its picture
of
Kurtz in his stockade surrounded by severed heads is based on reality,
not
the allegory or metaphor of fiction. In Belgian colonies such as the
Congo,
the natives were a problem - and the problem was that they were not
working
hard enough, not producing enough rubber for the metropolis. So armed
police
would invade villages, round up women and children, imprison them, and
murder groups of them until the required amount of rubber had been
delivered
by the men.
      Armed police are much in evidence at the police station in Lange
Nieuwstraat. An officer wastes no time in pointing out that Muslims are
a
problem. "It's a one-way street," he says. "We are waiting for them to
come
towards us the way they should and we want them to." But should you not
also
be moving towards them, I ask. "No," he replies without hesitation. "We
are
not a problem. Islam is the problem. Anything is possible where Islam
is
concerned." He expects a riot to take place, sooner or later.
      A riot, or rather a series of riots, did take place in Lille, the
last
stop on our journey. A northern industrial town in France, Lille
experienced
some of the worst of the recent unrest. Emmanuel Peronne, a fashion
designer
from the suburb of Roubaix, has no doubt what caused the riots. "It's
economic injustice and inequalities that successive generations of
Moroccan
and Algerian Muslims have suffered in employment, housing and
educational
opportunities, as well as downright racism at the hands of French
society,"
he says. "They have no means to survive. It is all about survival."
Roubaix,
scene of the most violent uprising, is a dilapidated holding area.
"They
call us immigres," says an angry halal butcher. "But we were born here.
We
have no standing in the ideals of 'liberte, egalite, fraternite'."
      Indeed. The ethos of the French revolution was never meant to be
pluralistic. Its essential proposition was based on totalitarian
uniformity - the scourge it unleashed as the ideological underpinning
of
modernity and European nationalism. It was also the bedrock of French
colonialism, which created parallel universes: the superior French and
the
inferior others. Assimilation into Frenchness and indirect rule over
difference were the twin tracks of French colonialism. So, officially,
because France recognises only Frenchness, it claims to be colour-blind
and
non-racist, yet it is both highly racist and attuned to a colour bar.
      In Lille as much as in Paris and elsewhere in France, there is a
neat
parallel that demonstrates the continuity of the colonial ethic. In
North
Africa, where most of the French immigrants come from, the medinas,
ancient
cities with a Muslim culture, were encircled in their separateness. The
medinas were seen as chaotic, confused and not fit for modernity - the
physical representation of what the French thought of the medinas'
inhabitants and their culture. Around these old indigestible cores were
built modern cities on the French model, where the colonisers lived and
from
which they dominated. Today, Lille has its own traditional core, a
bounded
city whose limits are jealously guarded. Around this inviolate core
circle
the depressing banlieues: modern slums of the grey, inhospitable and
inhuman
hutches built to house the indigestible population of migrant workers.
The
rationale of the colony is neatly reversed and brought home to the
metropolis. It is a metaphor for all that has not changed.
      Throughout our journey, we were surprised at how openly
prejudiced
people were against Muslims. Each country has its own extreme-right
party,
led by figures such as Jean-Marie Le Pen in France or Pim Fortuyn, who
was
assassinated in Holland in 2002. In Belgium, the draconian right is
represented by the Vlaams Blok, a Flemish nationalist party founded in
1977.
Philippe Van der Sande, its spokesman in Antwerp, declares that
"immigrants
do not adapt. They don't want to learn the language. They are not
interested
in our culture but just winning easy money." Well, we would expect him
to
say that. Yet the people we spoke to were ordinary citizens who saw
themselves as liberals and enlightened individuals.
      European liberalism today may be a consequence of
decolo-nisation. But
it seems more like a denial of uncomfortable, unanalysed traits than a
genuine overcoming of the past. Europe is post-colonial but ambivalent.
Even
among individuals with more relaxed attitudes to interracial
relationships,
racism is unashamed and upfront. In practice, now as in the past, such
relationships make little difference because they require subordination
of
the partner who is from an ethnic minority. Indeed, they can work to
increase the sense of superiority and separation. It means less
emphasis on
race, but more on culture as the quintessential dividing line.
      Everywhere I went, the thought that the nation might change in
the
process of accommodating its minorities was conspicuous by its absence.
Minorities are fine as menial workers, a subordinate class. It is when
minorities seek to be upwardly mobile, to live the modern liberal
dispensation in their own, distinctive way as self-assured, equal
members of
the national debate - and that was the desire of all the young Muslims
I
met - that the problems start and latent prejudice comes to the fore.
      The central mosque in Lille is located in the Wazemmes area. It
is a
rather unremarkable structure: three houses seem to have been knocked
together and a dwarf dome and minaret added rather crudely. The mosque
also
serves as the first Muslim school in France. It is named after
Averroes, the
great 12th-century Spanish rationalist philosopher and humanist. It is
a
pity that Europe appropriated his rationalism, but jettisoned his
pluralistic humanism. Ibn Rushd, to use his Muslim name, would demand
that
the established order that calls itself honourable and ethical, liberal
and
tolerant, offer an appropriate explanation to those whom it continues
to
discriminate against, dehumanise and demean.

 Namib
In Kossovo ci siamo stati, guarda quante critiche. Adesso anche con 
milosevic.


 Nazis accused Jews of violence and terrorism.
Già. Però quello che è sempre mancato sono -appunto- la violenza e il
terrorismo.
In sintesi, un articolo che sta a pieno titolo tra le peggiori e più
vergognose cazzate postate su IPI.


 prossimo venturo".
sei più viscido di uno stronzo che galleggia in mare da 1 settimana

In 4414affd$0$36929$
4faf...@reader3.news.tin.it
, Baroon,


Ti è piaciuto l'articolo?


 rispondere?
Che magari alcuni di noi erano stati a New York, Madrid e Londra? E che 
l''Olocausto' era iniziato li'?
Am.

Tonibaruch wrote:
:L'odio e il razzismo esistono in Europa,
Ma va...
:occorrerebbe anche ricordare che agli atti di odio e disprezzo sono
:quantomeno bidirezionali,
Ecco, bravo.  C'e razzismo ma "per onesta" si giustifica e si incolpa
le vittime.
Hai portato acqua al mulino di un ministro Siriano, complimenti.
GT

 Hai portato acqua al mulino di un ministro Siriano, complimenti.
ROTFL. Viva Hezbollah, eh?


 sta spopolando nella locale comunità turca.
[cut]
Ovviamente, volevo scrivere "C'è la Germania".


le vittime.
E riecco il coglione disinformatore Torrieri all'opera!!! :)
Nessuno ha parlato di "incolpare le vittime" ma il nostro fido Torrieri
e' riuscito ad infilarlo in bocca al suo interlocutore :)
-Stefano

 vergognose cazzate postate su IPI.
L'ho postato perché, a mio avviso, potrebbe riportare fedelmente il "come ci
si sente" di un mediorientale standard. "Come ci si sente" anche in
"Occidente". Bye.
Namib
--
Jackson Bentley: What attracts you personally to the desert?
T.E. Lawrence: It's clean.
Lawrence of Arabia

 l''Olocausto' era iniziato li'?
Quindi quei quattro gatti di al-Qa'eda stanno compiendo un "genocidio"?! E
quei 150,000 gatti anglo-americani, per contro, cosa cazzo stanno
combinando, in Iraq?
Namib

 Namib
Caro Namib, due torti non fanno una ragione...  Ma per ora l'Olocausto 
rimane un'altra cosa.
Il gusto della battuta a volte finisce per sviare...
Am.

 rispondere?
Bah, Namib: per quanto ci sia un'islamofobia sempre più capillarmente
diffusa, il titolo del post mi pare estremamente fuori misura e, rendendo
grazia a Manitù, siamo ancora ben lungi da ciò che accadde nell'Europa
degli anni '40 dello scorso secolo.
-- 
Chaos A.D.		|	Raging crowd
Tanks on the streets	|	Burning cars
Confronting police	|	Bloodshed starts
Bleeding the Plebs	|	Who'll be alive?

 degli anni '40 dello scorso secolo.
E speriamo di non arrivarci mai, magari tenendo d'occhio quell' "islamofobia
sempre più capillarmente
diffusa", ed anche chi ci campa, come al Qa'eda, senza andar tanto lontano.
Poi, nulla si ripete, nella storia: ma certe "assonanze" (soprattutto la
"buona coscienza" dei "volenterosi carnefici" di un tempo e dei wannabe
carnefici di oggi) dànno i brividi. Non voglio assumermi la colpa di non
aver parlato *prima* (speriamo, prima di nulla). Bye.
Namib

 Il gusto della battuta a volte finisce per sviare...
Spero sia autocritica per la tua battuta sul "genocidio" di NY, Londra e
Madrid... Bye.
Namib

 Vorrei evitare di rivederli, prego.
Ovvio. Ma il problema è l'irresponsabilità di evocare paragoni tra cose così 
drammaticamente diverse.
Tb

 E' una metafora su cui dovresti riflettere.
lol! per lui è "un diritto civile"... <g>
 
 
-- 
 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
 segnala gli abusi ad 
ab...@newsland.it

 lol! per lui è "un diritto civile"... <g>
No, diritto civile è sputare in faccia a Diliberto (e pure a Romagnoli e 
Borghezio).
A questa feccia che non ha né le forza né le palle per causare stermini, ma 
che certo dà il suo volonteroso contributo all'imbarbarimento di questo 
paese.
Tb 

 Namib
Perche? Non pensi forse che l'integralismo islamico vorrebbe fare un 
genocidio, per usare il *tuo* vocabolario?
L'altro giorno alla BBC ho sentito un deputato americano rifiutare di 
dare in appalto  5 porti americani ad una ditta del Dubai, per paura  
che vi attraccasse una nave con un'atomica pronta ad esplodere.
L'attentato su grande scala non ripugna certo ne ad Al Quaeda ne ai 
Fratelli musulmani ed altri integralisti. Ne' le stragi,  dall'Algeria 
all'India.
 Mica facile cavalcare il Terzo Mondo contro l'Occidente plutodemocratico.
Anche Russia, India e Cina hanno  il loro bel daffare a contenere la 
spinta integralista islamica. Pensi di fare anche per loro da oca del 
Campidoglio?
Am.

 No, diritto civile è sputare in faccia a Diliberto 
se non ti caghi addosso nel farlo, a Roma il 16 marzo ci sara' Diliberto
con Moni Ovadia.
Ma ti cagherai addosso...


 ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:dv42fu$1s0$1...@news.newsland.it...
[cut]
Basta. Dichiaro clown-free questo thread.
Tb 

 Ma ti cagherai addosso...
.....a grande richiesta, il rientro dello sturacessi nel pieno fulgore
del suo incontrovertibile lessico.   


 Campidoglio?
Paragone errato: in quell'occasione il nemico era fuori da Roma, ora rischia
di diventare Caesar (con il tuo grazioso consenso?). Bene ha fatto Di Segni
a visitare la moschea di Roma, in segno di dialogo. Male fanno quelli che
voltano la faccia dall'altra parte, e fingono che non stia succedendo nulla
*qui*, a casetta nostra, quel mitico "Occidente" che, piů passa il tempo,
piů somiglia alla Persia del Gran Re (vista da Eschilo).
Namib

 ci si avvicinano di più.
Ok, Namib, ma consentimelo: genocidio ed olocausto sono ben altro.
Di tentativi *sistematici* ed *ideologici* di eliminazione del "popolo
islamico" io continuo a non vederne.


 Basta. Dichiaro clown-free questo thread.
nel senso che scappi via come è scappato berlusconi ieri a rai3? ok, buona
fuga goebbels da ng
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 islamico" io continuo a non vederne.
#_Io credo che di preavvisi se ne vedano gia`da tempo.
Se l'olocausto e` nato da un antiebraismo latente prima e radicato poi,
maturato successivamente e attivamente in sterminio di massa in regimi
dittatoriali, gli elementi ci sono tutti: dalla politica interna ed estera
di alcuni Stati d'Europa e degli Stati Uniti in primis si puo` scorgere una
tendenza verso il totalitarismo che ne permetterebbe una seconda attuazione
e questa volta a spese dell'islamismo.
Gli strumenti di sterminio saranno diversi e meno eclatanti; non
aspettiamoci di rivedere forni crematori, ma altri metodi diretti comunque
verso lo sterminio sistematico di popolazioni aventi quel credo religioso e`
gia`in atto da  una ventina d'anni almeno.
Giano

 piů somiglia alla Persia del Gran Re (vista da Eschilo).
Tortura,eccessi e pulizie etniche . vengono ancora indagate e punite in 
Occidente, mentre in Russia e in Oriente non se ne ha notizia.
Ma del resto, nella patria del Diritto Romano, e delle italiche 
prigioni, la cosa non ha mai fatto scandalo, ne' a destra ne' a 
sinistra... Sulle rendition italiane, e sul ruolo del SISMI di Pollari, 
 si continua a non sapere nulla in parlamento.
L'opposizione di  sinistra, sti' individui arabo-islamici torturati, se 
ne' e' lavata le mani.
Am.

 ne' e' lavata le mani.
La magistratura indaga. Spero (ne dubito, però) che concluderà qualcosa. Ma
non avrò problemi a confessarlo; anzi, a denunciarlo, per quel poco che
contano le mie parole. Di patrie-poodle mica c'è solo l'UK: la "serva
Italia" si difende bene, e da secoli.
Namib

No. In nome di un golpe.
IL che giustificherebbe, se ho capito bene, i circa duecentomila morti
( i piu' fortunati sgozzati ) da parte del FIS ?
Dimmi che ho capito male, please.
Benedetto Zaccaria

 allegramente...
E' successo anche per la Guerra d'Algeria in Francia, per  e la guerra 
libica in Italia, magrado i massacri...
Non si e' parlato di Olocausto, eppure quelle stragi ci sono state 
senza che gli algerini abbiano fatto esplodere il centro di Parigi,o i 
libici quello di Roma...
In definitiva e' il tuo titolo che e' allegramente sopra le righe.
Am.

 Dimmi che ho capito male, please.
Hai capito male.
Namib

 In definitiva e' il tuo titolo che e' allegramente sopra le righe.
Può darsi. Anzi, *ora* è decisamente sopra le righe. Ma credi davvero che
tutto questo "patrimonio d'odio" si riciclerà tanto tranquillamente? Illuso.
Pericolosamente tale.
Namib

 singolare di "decadenza"...
Ma e' quello che sostiene Najib Ullah in 'Islamic Literature', a 
proposito della decadenza della letteratura e della filosofia,  e 
quello che sosteneva il Nobel Abdus Salam nella sua autobiografia, a 
proposito delle scienze. Entrano tutte in decadenza  verso il 1500., a 
causa del prevalere dell'integralismo religioso.
E' un concetto abbastanza noto a chi non passa le giornate pascolando 
le capre, e zufolando pseudoconcetti per stupire gli allocchi.
La struttura politico-economica dell'Impero Ottomano non c'entra molto 
con la decadenza e la frustrazione di un area di un miliardo di persone.
Am.

 con la decadenza e la frustrazione di un area di un miliardo di persone.
Direi che invece è marxianamente e logicamente fondamentale, e che la
decadenza della letteratura e della filosofia (occhrist: l'Occidente è in
pericolo!), nonché la "frustrazione" (curioso fenomeno "storico") di un
miliardo (o di 25 persone) siano un "criterio" di razionalizzazione
storiografica pre-ottocentesco (à propos di decadenza...).
Namib

 palesi sciocchezze.
Grazie. Credo che sia meglio chiudere. Noto solo che 'sto Olocausto 
prossimo venturo rimane tutto nella tua fosca escatologia...
Am.

"amalric" <ama...@TOGLIMIalice.it> wrote in message
news:441712b6$0$36936$4faf...@reader3.news.tin.it...

#_L'Escatologia (o scatologia di sicuro) credo sia stata oltre gli intenti
di Namib.
Ho seguito con interesse il vostro dibattito, ma, come ho gia`detto altrove,
gli elementi per paventare tale svolta ci sono quasi tutti. E`indubbio che
il momento storico in cui viviamo segna una tendeNZa alla fine della
globalizzazione, con il pericolo imminente di un ritorno a nazionalismi
molto funesti, specialmente per chi si ritiene Europeo e ne auspica la
omogeneizzazione politica dei suoi Stati, proprio per evitare nazionalismi
retrivi.
L'odio latente e in alcuni casi chiaramente espresso verso l'Islamismo (
vedi la popolarita`e premi dati ad una carogna come la Fallaci), mi pare che
sia stato gia`dimostrato, sia in Europa che in USA; il nostro IPI ne e`uno
specchio piu`che valido.
Questi due sono gli elementi base per ritracciare quello che fu l'Olocausto
e i fondamentalismi non riducono sicuramente il rischio che un passato si
ripeta.
Giano

 Giano
Tu vorresti paragonare un crimine commesso contro dieci milioni di 
civili indifesi ad una ipotetica guerra contro un miliardo di persone, 
e diecine di paesi dotati di apparati militari, oltre che di 
organizzazioni terroriste?
Be', torniamo con i piedi per terra...
Am.

"amalric" <ama...@TOGLIMIalice.it> wrote in message
news:44178ff8$0$29736$4faf...@reader2.news.tin.it...

#_La paura mia e` proprio quella!
Il tornare coi piedi per terra e vedere che l'incubo e`poi diventato
realta`; che lo stesso trattamento venga attuato a residenti mussulmani
egualmente indifesi, costretti alla fuga o nascondersi per salvare le
strasse, in un paese con un regime che si ispiri alla pulitura definitiva.
Sono orrificato nel vedere una Danimarca e una Olanda soprattutto come sia
cambiata da quel paese multiculturalista degli anni '60. Dalla situazione
attuale ad una ipotetica il salto e` breve.
L'Olocausto ha fatto "N1" numero di vittime e "N2" numero di superstiti.
I numeri infine, IMO (come ho sempre affermato) contano poco con una
politica e con dei principi di comportamento.
In mia opinione quell' ipotetico cleansing  contro un miliardo di persone
e`infatti gia`iniziato e il maggior guaio e` che ci crede quasi tutto quel
miliardo.
Giano

 miliardo.
Infatti, l'Islam insegna ai mussulmani a comportarsi e ragionare come 
dei paranoici narcisisti nei confronti dei non mussulmani. Alcuni sono 
più ricettivi e altri meno, ma la media del comportamento è quella.
E come tutti i paranoici, alla fine, creano il loro persecutori, anche 
se non esistono. Il narcisismo li induce a volere sempre di più, oltre 
che ad avere paura, il che peggiora la mistura.
Mirco
-- 
  -- Robert A. Heinlein
Limiting the freedom of news ‘just a little bit’ is in the same category 
within the classic example ‘a little bit pregnant’.

 news:44178ff8$0$29736$4faf...@reader2.news.tin.it...
*Il problema č "perché c'č stato questo cambiamento nella predisposizione
*degli olandesi, dei danesi, e in generale degli occidentali (e anche il
*resto dei non mussulmani non č rimasto indifferente).
*Se prescindi da questo, allora tutto il discorso č uno sfogo emotivo
*senza capo ne coda. Se non elimini la causa, come pensi di risolvere il
*problema?
*Infatti, l'Islam insegna ai mussulmani a comportarsi e ragionare come
*dei paranoici narcisisti nei confronti dei non mussulmani.
#_Nel Corano non c'e`un passo che insegni quello che vai scrivendo.
*Alcuni sono piů ricettivi e altri meno, ma la media del comportamento č
quella.
#_Questa "media" l'hai stabilita tu?
*E come tutti i paranoici, alla fine, creano il loro persecutori, anche
*se non esistono.
#_Coloro che  hanno bruciato le moschee non erano fantasmi della mente.
*Il narcisismo li induce a volere sempre di piů, oltre
*che ad avere paura, il che peggiora la mistura.
Mirco
#_Sarebbe interessante sapere cosa intendi con quel " di piu`" ; a me
risulta che chiedano quello che e`la base di una convivenza civile: il
rispetto ai propri costumi e alla propria cultura, alla liberta`di culto che
dovrebbe garantire uno Stato democratico.
La stragrande maggioranza dei mussulmani viventi all'estero, vuol vivere in
pace.
La differenza, e la preoccupazione mia, sta proprio in quell'esecutivo
"democraticamente" eletto che dovrebbe essere l'espressione della
volonta`generale del paese e della costituzione. Se cambi questo ci si trova
in una fase che potrebbe condurre a quella soluzione definitiva.
Le misure preventive degli USA diretti verso il mussulmano, in casa e di
ripulitura nel "teatro delle operazioni" tra la popolazione civile, parla
molto chiaro.
Quell'abominio di Guantanamo e Abu Graib sono gli aspetti piu`eclatanti di
un massacro che conta centinaia di migliaia di morti.
IMO, parte di tutto e`un problema demografico, dato che guardando le
statistiche, le nascite tra Europei e`in pieno declino e crea la paura di
una futura prevalenza di una popolazione di razza differente.
Giano

 una futura prevalenza di una popolazione di razza differente.
Il problema non è solo la prevalenza della razza differente.
Altrimenti avremmo dei problemi anche con i cinesi o con altre etnie.
Il problema è con i mussulmani.
Perché?
Perché abbiamo il timore che se in futuro saremo deboli, loro non 
avranno pietà di noi.
E tutto quello che vediamo non fa altro che convalidare questa paura.
Almeno dal 9/11 fino ad oggi, è stato un crescendo di situazioni in cui 
le ragioni di sfiducia verso i mussulmani sono solo cresciute.
