Newsgroup: it.sport.ciclismo
Titolo: EPO Cheats Out

http://paularadcliffe.com/ad_cheats.php
Questo sì che fu un grande gesto coraggioso e ammirevole.
Visto lo stato in cui si trova il ciclismo...perché i ciclisti puliti 
non si mettono a manifestare contro i colleghi zozzoni?
Hanno paura di finire come Simeoni?
-- 
http://modesta.biciticino.ch
Il sito dedicato alla giovane ciclista lituana Modesta Vzesniauskaite

 wrote in message
news:eb2in1$ffs$1...@newsreader.mailgate.org...
EPO cheats out?
I'll post it here, its my two cents worth...
What is cheating? Is Armstrong cheating if has used technology to gain an
edge? Is cheating just limited to the legalities of what the rules are on
paper? Is it cheating to have an unfair advantage no matter if it's legal or
not? Can you blame someone who has better genes? How about a better trainer,
or a better team? Is it cheating if a team like Discovery or Postal,
combined with Nike and Trek used millions of dollars to give a certain 7
time winner an edge? It that cheating, or is cheating only limited to drug
use? Legal substances are ok? Coffee is ok to a limit until they say
otherwise, and training at altitude is legal, and tents are legal, until
they say it is not. And what about all these doping agencies? What have they
cheated all the riders out of since the days of Gaul, Bartali and Coppi?
In the old days, riders used speed, cocaine, lots of coffee, wine, etc.
There was no such thing as cheating. I have come to understand that cheating
is a word too loosely used in cycling. Tour winners told new riders where
their place was in the peleton, and if they wanted to win, it had to be ok
with the current champion, and have the blessings of the rest of the
peleton. Winning, and who won was not always the meaning of success or that
the riders were endeared to their public. Often riders had to win the hearts
of the public, and once beloved by their public, winning had little to do
with it. The relationship between riders, the owners, sponsors, the press
was one of mutual respect and they were all on the same team. That is to
make the tour the best it could be for the fans, and to continue to make the
tour tradition as rich as possible, since it is like a religion in France
and riders are like singers in a choir, and the press the conductor of the
choir. It's the royal opera being played out over 4 weeks, with the fans
being the biggest part of all!
If we lose the fans, then we lose everything. Should we lose the fans and
the entire sport of cycling just because some doping control experts have
been appointed as Gods over the sport given the power to destroy the lives
of cyclists who have worked their whole lives to become professionals, at
the drop of a hat, at the flash of a magical wand? WADA,  USADA, and all
these doping agencies are (not) Gods, and they should not be treated as
such. They have not just given cycling a black eye, but nearly have
destroyed the sport. The GREAT GULF, the gap between the doping agencies and
the sport as it has been know in Europe since the early years have collided
on what can only be called the biggest train wreck of the century!
I used to think that it was also cut and dry as an America, that there was
winners and losers, clean riders and cheaters, but I have since come to
understand that the problem is much more complex then that. The problem it
seems that you have two camps much like the war in the middle east where
each side is at a complete standoff. On one side, you have the old school of
thinking where riders, owners and the press could trust each other and they
knew the press and would support the riders. Today what you have is not only
mistrust with riders and teams on one side, and anti doping agencies on the
other, but the press is in the middle, and I am afraid they are not only
alienating the riders, but they don't help the doping agencies either with
all the leaks and mis-printed stories. Riders have been stripped of their
status and have been treated as numbers or second class citizens. The
romance has gone out of the tour, and what we have today is total mistrust
and I am afraid the fans have suffered the most.
The doping agencies should of never been given this much power, and these
things should be handled much more discreetly, akin to winners on the front
page, and doping violations on the back page in small print, but I will go
yet another step further. These agencies should be abolished all together! I
think cycling should be given back to the fans and the riders as in the old
days. Let us return to the days where the press is working for all the
elements of the tour from the riders, the teams, the owners and especially
the fans!!
The only fair way to make the playing field level is return things to the
post era, which supplements are legal, and applied by medical experts of the
team doctors. I think it should all be out in the open, and not in the dark
like back alley abortions, when abortion was illegal. I think there would be
fewer deaths overall, and only the really stupid ones would die. The days of
Tommy Simpson are over, EPO is much more controlled now. With all the
advances of hiding EPO, supplements, testosterone, etc. the playing field
will never be clean and those playing fair will always be at a disadvantage.
There will always be a certain amount of riders who feel they need an edge
to win, and making it legal will solve that. Let the riders use what they
want as long as it is not drugs strictly forbidden by the state, and
recreational drugs are not the drugs of choice anyway for riders. Let's
remove the stigma of cheaters, and dopers, and just let them race for the
fans and let the chips fall where they may.
It's not up to the state or the doping agencies to tell the riders what they
want them to do. First and foremost, it should be up to the riders, let them
decide since they are the ones doing all the work. If the majority of the
riders want this to be legal, then let them race, and leave them alone. It
would be much better for sport and the fans, as we know cycling is the only
sport which is singled out unfairly anyway, as we know about all the drugs
in baseball and the other big sports where owners have the money and power
to sweep it all under the table.
If it is made legal, all the heartbreak, bad blood, mistrust and division
between the riders, the press and the doping organizations will disappear.
Imagine that, we as fans could get back to a rich tradition of the tour with
our favorite riders and the press to write great stories, and the culture
could thrive again!! I am afraid if something doesn't change soon with the
doping agencies having so much power to turn cycling on its head at every
turn, then the sport is doomed! :-(
That's my two cents, I don't see any other way, because stage racing
especially in the grand tours is much too hard, and riders will forever
being looking for an edge, and with the doping agencies constantly on the
prowl, its going to be one train wreck after another, after another! It's
certainly not fair for powerful teams to buy up all the best riders and buy
the best equipments and coaches to win just because it's legal, so this
concept of cheating and stigma of doping is very one sided I am afraid.
Let them race, let them decide, let them win! :-)
B-

 EPO cheats out?
In my opinion, its not EPO that would be something to worry about, since it
can be safely administered by medical experts. I don't worry much about the
old recreational drugs, they are not only illegal anyway, but not the
products of choice to obtain an edge anymore, but my main concern would be
how steroids would be used. That would be a can of worms to throw into the
legal mix, and I certainly wouldn't like to see the effects of steroids on
women. However as a fan I wouldn't like to see the use of products by
professionals which do long term physical damage to the body. However, it's
their body, and their very short time to shine in the sun. That's why I
favor returning cycling back to former times, all things considered. Its not
a perfect world, and perhaps things like Steroids were hatched out of hell,
but I have always felt harmful drugs should be illegal anyway in the state,
like recreational drugs, but professionals cyclists are exactly that,
(professionals) and they should be treated as such and allowed to make their
own choices. EPO and other supplements which can be used safely should be
legal, and those steroids which are quite harmful should be illegal like
hard narcotics, those recreational drugs. However I don't see a problem with
safe products, and allowing these things to be legal allows a fair playing
field, and removes this huge stigma of doping, and the constant black eyes
inflicted by the doping agencies.
As I said, its not a perfect world, at some point a compromise has to be
reached to save the sport, and as Bruce Lee said, (unbending rigor is the
mate of death) and this rigorous unbending stance on doping will be the
death of cycling, unless things change. Cyclists are much different then any
other athletes on the planet. They ride almost all year long, with a very
hard season, long stage races, and it's not even possible to ride the three
grand tours anymore like Lajaretta used to do. The speeds have increased,
and its much more demanding overall today for riders both at the Giro and
the TDF. They need an edge to survive the season, or they will quickly be
applying for a job at Starbucks. Their ticket to fame, and their chance to
shine can be a very short time in the limelight, so riders will continue to
hide drug use, and take any advantage to stay in the game. Making some of
these substances legal would at least give the riders a fighting chance, and
create level playing field. Drugs are the wave of the future in every aspect
of society to make people live longer, live better, to beat cancer and many
forms of death and disease from AIDS to Malaria, you name it. Big drug
companies will continue to profit and exploit these drugs, and riders
shouldn't be punished in this new age of Pharmaceuticals products. On the
contrary, cycling must adapt, and let the riders take advantage of it, as
long as the products are basically safe, and as I said, this should all be
done on the up an up, all things done in the open, to create not only a fair
playing field, but restore some honor and dignity back to cycling.
It's long overdue!
B-

 can be safely administered by medical experts. 
Yes, EPO is no more harmful than orange juice... :-(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/world_athletics/1481126.stm
(and you can find a lot of sources discussing this subject...)
Injecting the drug will thicken the blood. If it is over-used the blood 
will become so thick, there is a real danger of the heart stopping when 
the body slows down, for example, when falling asleep.
Increasing the likelihood of suffering blood clots, heart attacks and 
strokes is a real possibility.
http://www.sportpro.it/doping/ricerche/DanniEPO.htm
Al professor Pasquale Bellotti, ex segretario della Commissione 
Scientifica del Coni, abbiamo chiesto un contributo circa gli effetti 
deleteri dell'uso di eritropoietina nello sport. Ben lungi dall'essere 
privo di conseguenze sia nell'immediato che a lungo termine, l'uso di 
questo ormone, specie ai dosaggi necessari per averne significativi 
vantaggi in campo sportivo, provoca danni sensibili al fisico umano, 
alcuni dei quali possono essere anche irreversibili.
Il metodo cosiddetto dell’emotrasfusione e l’ormone eritropoietina 
rappresentano due fondamentali mezzi di doping ematico nella pratica 
dello sport, soprattutto nelle specialità di resistenza, laddove – cioè 
– è di fondamentale importanza il possesso di efficienti meccanismi di 
trasporto dell’ossigeno ai diversi distretti organismici e di cessione 
dello stesso ai tessuti impegnati nel lavoro.
L’eritropoietina è, come detto, una sostanza ormonale prodotta 
naturalmente dall’organismo sano, che svolge il fondamentale compito di 
stimolare la produzione e la crescita dei globuli tossi (o eritrociti o 
emazie). Questa funzione di stimolazione dell’eritropoiesi viene 
esercitata dall’eritropoietina nel midollo osseo, sul gruppo cellulare 
cosiddetto dell’eritrone. L’eritropoietina agisce soltanto sulle cellule 
più adatte, essendo in grado di attivare una sorta di selezione che 
elimina le cellule meno buone, consentendo solo ad alcune di passare 
attraverso differenti linee di maturazione e di diventare, alla fine, 
eritrociti. Tale processo, in verità assai complesso, si definisce 
apoptosi. Questo processo è tipico dell’eritropoietina endogena, ma non 
di quella introdotta dall’esterno (esogena, industrialmente prodotta, 
allo scopo di curare alcune gravi patologie renali).
L’eritropoietina ricombinante umana (rHuEPO) non è in grado, infatti, di 
selezionare, all’interno dell’eritrone, le cellule più adatte per 
diventare eritrociti: tale incapacità di discernimento (risultante 
nell’inibizione dell’apoptosi) comporta che tutte le cellule 
dell’eritrone, anche quelle imperfette, passino attraverso i previsti 
livelli di maturazione e diventino eritrociti. Secondo le segnalazioni 
provenienti dalla letteratura scientifica, ciò comporterebbe il rischio 
di sviluppare nel tempo addirittura malattie tumorali oltre che altre 
gravi patologie (eritroleucemia, policitemia vera, aplasia della serie 
rossa da formazione di anticorpi anti-EPO, leucemia mieloide acuta da 
aumentata concentrazione di EPO nel sangue, ecc).
Ma sono diversi i rischi che, oltre a quello sopradescritto, sono insiti 
nell’uso – specie se massiccio e se protratto, come avviene in diversi 
atleti - dell’eritropoietina ricombinante:
tendenza alla trombofilia, indipendente dal valore di ematocrito: 
infatti, l’EPO ha la capacità di inibire fattori della coagulazione del 
sangue, come la proteina "S", motivo per il quale – anche con valori di 
ematocrito assai bassi – può verificarsi la formazione di trombi 
intravascolari, nei diversi distretti ed organi corporei (fegato, reni, 
polmoni, ecc.);
tendenza alla trombofilia, dipendente dal valore dell’ematocrito: 
infatti, l’emoconcentrazione, dovuta all’incremento della massa dei 
globuli rossi circolanti, può comportare la formazione di grumi e di 
coaguli sanguigni, all’interno sia delle cavità cardiache atriali e 
ventricolari sia dei vasi sanguigni, venosi ed arteriosi, dei diversi 
distretti ed organi corporei (fegato, reni, polmoni, ecc.);
emoconcentrazione, ovvero neutralizzazione del fenomeno della 
emodiluizione (cosiddetta pseudo-anemia dell’atleta di resistenza), che 
è fenomeno decisamente positivo, soprattutto perché responsabile sia di 
un miglior rendimento meccanico del cuore, sia della costituzione di una 
elevata riserva di liquidi da impiegare per la sudorazione;
potenziale incremento delle resistenze vascolari nelle zone profonde del 
cervello, con possibile instaurarazione di un invecchiamento precoce 
delle strutture, di anticipazione delle modificazioni degenerative 
età-dipendenti, di alterazione del ruolo fisiologico delle sostanze 
deputate alla trasmissione degli impulsi nervosi, di aumento delle 
azioni negative esercitate dai radicali liberi, ecc.);
ipertensione, conseguente sclerosi vascolare (nei diversi distretti ed 
organi corporei, come fegato, reni e polmoni) ed accresciuto rischio di 
infarto;
convulsioni;
encefalopatia ipertensiva;
leucoencefalopatia (con modificazioni della sostanza bianca cerebrale.

 strokes is a real possibility.
Yes, I know all this, I have read this stuff before, but EPO would be less
of a worry I think today. Steroids is the one which I think is more of a
concern.
B-
ps-But you have taken a one sided reply, you ignored the history of the
tour, the rich tradition, and so forth. You have given a answer based solely
on you concerns about performance enhancements and ignored everything else
that has made the tour, and cycling in Europe great throughout the ages. :-(

 that has made the tour, and cycling in Europe great throughout the ages. :-(
Well, I would prefer to discuss this subject in Italian since my English 
is not perfect and since I would risk to simplify too much my thoughts


 the really stupid ones would die.
That's quite optimistic. When the field will be levelled by EPO the would
start using new, more powerfull and less tested
drugs. And we'llhave deaths in the short and long term.
And, BTW, there are rules in the civil society that you should not remove in
the sport arena.
Do you really think that a doctor will assume responsibility for
administering 10-100 times the tested amount of some drug to an athlete?
BR
L.

 administering 10-100 times the tested amount of some drug to an athlete?
No, but that misses the point completely. Medicine is on the cutting edge,
they are constantly learning more all the time, about how to make products
safer. There should of course be limits, and of course I don't think certain
dangerous steroids should be allowed.
Do you have a better solution?
B-

 Are Benjo Maso and doctor Michele Ferrari the same person?
BTW,
I do have the higest respect and praise for Benjo's opinions and writings. I
think he made a joke about the orange juice a while back, but no matter.
Benjo's book is still available here, written in English...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1874739374/026-9917010-5210040?v=glance&n=266239
This book, I have had the pleasure of reading two chapters in English, which
was quite interesting about the Tour of 48.
http://www.nlpvf.nl/book/book2.php?Book=334
This film, also Benjo did research work on, although it's not noted in the
text ads here. I have seen it, it's very well done.
http://www.a-film.nl/film.php?id=00000261
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454641/
B-

 Do you have a better solution?
I don't have a "solution" because cheating and/or illicit is always present.
Whatever regulation you have someone will break it for his own advantage.
I think that fans have the real power to change thing, stopping to excuse
athletes and clearly asking for a clean sport.
If fan ask loudly and consistently enough, sponsors will start to ask the
same and the Federations will follow.
There will be always someone who cheats, but is quite easy to keep a strict
eye on those who win most.
And punishment should be so severe that it will make it not worth (eg at
least 5 years banning)
It will remain a struggle, but there is no way out...
BR
L.

 It will remain a struggle, but there is no way out...
The truth is out there!!!!!!!
There are always answers!!!!!!
B-

 I prefer the carrot, not the stick!! :-)
They already have carrots it the form of making a living out of sport and
huge money for the winners.
I also think that if we have to appreciate sport champions is also for their
values and ethic, so I expect higher standards from them.
If we have to admit that they all need to cheat and we excuse this...well at
least a fan (myself) is forever lost.
There is a lot of people that's completely honest even in much harder
circumstances, I see no reason athletes can't do the same.
Ciao
L.

 circumstances, I see no reason athletes can't do the same.
I think deep down , most athletes are good people, and they want to follow
the rules. I think everyone wants to win fair and square. This is a great
thing, being admired as a role model as a sports heros. And sometimes when
they fail to match those expectations, they kill themselves, either directly
or indirectly. That is the ultimate sign that one seeks to cleanse himself.
Rather then hiding it as though nothing has happened and going on with their
lives, they feel so bad about it, they can't forgive themselves and death
seems to be the only way out. I think it's truly a shame that the stigma has
become so great, that riders would do that. They certainly didn't in the old
days. I had heard Pantani had written a note in his hotel room that said,
why me? I have tapes of Pantani from the tours and his only tour victory. I
can tell you, he certainly provided me with hours of very enjoyable Tour De
France coverage, and I will always admire his as a great climber, just like
Bartali and Luperini!!
B-


I've mixed feeling about that. IMHO they have an easy life because they do
something very nice (prove is that many pay for doing it for pure passion)
and can also earn a lot from this.
Somehow I understand the pressure they feel, but that's not a good reason to
say that thay _have_ to win or they can't live without being in the race.
Now it's time for my summer vacation so I won't post for a couple of weeks.
Has been nice to chat with you, hope my written english wasn't to ugly to
read
Bye
L.