Newsgroup: it.hobby.satellite-tv
Titolo: Pixelization in picture of USSB, not DirecTv

I recently installed my Sony dish system and I have a signal strength of
78-79 on Transponder 2. When I watch any of the channels on USSB I get a
lot of pixelization during high intensity scenes, for instance: explosions
and tornadoes. I previously though that this was due to the satellite
signal being too low but I ordered a PPV movie last night from DirecTv and
the picture was flawless. Exactly what I expected from the satellite when I
purchased it. I will eventually get up on the roof and fine-tune the signal
but I am really surprised at the poor quality of USSB's signal compared to
DirecTv's.

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

 DirecTv's.
PPV has the best video because they use a different "compression".
You will see the pixelization on DTV and USSB, but it can vary a 	
	lot from channel to channel.

Angelo Giambra (
Ang...@camelotcare.com
) wrote:
: Keep watching.  It's not just USSB.  You will get the same crap on PPV
: movies, Sports events and basically every single channel during high
: intensity scenes or low lighting.  Especially if you view on a big screen
: like I do.  I have been complaining about this for months but no one is
: listening. 
Why are low lighting scenes so bad? I don't understand why they would 
require more bandwidth than bright one.  In fact they should require 
less.  This must be some weakness in the encoding algorithm they use.

(1) More channels = (2) more compression = (3) more artifacts.
Unfortunally everyone begs for (1) and few complain about (3).  DirecTV
and USSB are just responding to what people ask for.  More channels and
less quality.  Maybe its time to start a big letter campaign to drop some
channels in exchange for better quality picture.  Good luck.
-- 
Steve Martin    
mar...@metronet.com
 
http://www.cheezmo.com/
The Widescreen Movie Center       
http://www.cheezmo.com/wsmc/
Letterboxed Movie TV Schedule  
http://www.cheezmo.com/lbx.html

Steve Martin (
mar...@metronet.com
) wrote:
: (1) More channels = (2) more compression = (3) more artifacts.
: Unfortunally everyone begs for (1) and few complain about (3).  DirecTV
: and USSB are just responding to what people ask for.  More channels and
: less quality.  Maybe its time to start a big letter campaign to drop some
: channels in exchange for better quality picture.  Good luck.
A fourth satellite would help, but this would take an awful lot of 
letters to convince them.  Besides if they launched another there'd be 
too much temptation to use the additional bandwidth for new channels.

 too much temptation to use the additional bandwidth for new channels.
You are correct.  DirecTV is adding subscribers at the rate they
expected.  The only reason to launch another satellite (and obtain
about a 12% increase in bandwidth) is to add services that attract more
customers.  Until the artifacts become so severe that a mass exodus
begins, there is no incentive to launch additional (extremely expensive)
resources and pile on more debt.  USSB has yet to post a month in the
black and I doubt that they could afford to finance the fourth
satellite.
Compression technology is also improving.  Adding more channels does not
alway mean that more artifacts will be present.
--
Michael Weber
m...@fast.net

DirecTv's.
Yep, USSB sucks. USSB is somewhat worse than the regular DTV channels
and much worse than PPV, as you saw. I often debate cancelling my USSB
subscription because the quality is so poor. But in the end I keep it
because I'm a TV/movie junkie and I like the variety. It's still
better than cable.
Increasing your signal strength won't affect your picture quality. It
will only make you less succeptable rain fade.
-Dylan

 listening. 
Resign your subscription , and i believe someone will !! 
Et bien resilie ton abonnement et je suis sur que quelqu'un t'ecoutera !!
a+

 >

 too much temptation to use the additional bandwidth for new channels.
  The only problem with your solution would be that additional satellite
does not increase bandwidth, The FCC specified the frequency spectrum
that could used.  Band width has to do with maximum frequencys
broadcast.
Another satellite would increase power, reduce rain fade/size of dish
required
but as fas as channels go the above statement still fits
more channels=more compression=more artifacts...
IF more satellites worked DirecTV shouldn't have a problem, they have
three and
Echo has two, with same amount or similar amount of pixelazation
present.
--
Randy Nielsen
Owner Nielsen's A/V Services
http://landru.i-link-2.net/randall/index.html
Toshiba Home Theater Dealer/Hughes Network Systems Dealer/Servicer

listening. 
This is not due to signal strength. What you're seeing are MPEG 2 compression
artifacts.

Randy Nielsen (
ran...@i-link-2.net
) wrote:
:   The only problem with your solution would be that additional satellite
: does not increase bandwidth, The FCC specified the frequency spectrum
: that could used.  Band width has to do with maximum frequencys
: broadcast.
: Another satellite would increase power, reduce rain fade/size of dish
: required
No, a 4th satellite will increase bandwidth 15 percent, this was 
discussed in depth last week in this ng, you might want to look at some 
of the old posts.  The 4th satellite will allow them to use more high 
powered transponders which carry more channels in the same bandwidth.
: but as fas as channels go the above statement still fits
: more channels=more compression=more artifacts...
: IF more satellites worked DirecTV shouldn't have a problem, they have
: three and
: Echo has two, with same amount or similar amount of pixelazation
: present.
: --
Just comparing the number of satellites is not useful by itself, you 
need to take into account that DirectTV/USSB has more channels than 
Echo.   
: Randy Nielsen


 --


John Duncan (
jo...@inlandnet.net
) wrote:
: I am thrilled about starting a massive letter camapign. I bought the dish
: for high quality movies and that is what I expect. America Online was
: forced to respond to quality problems, and so will USSB. What would be the
: most appropriate address to mail to? E-mail or Snail Mail?
What can USSB do?  They can either cut the number of channels, or try to 
get some bandwidth away from DirectTV, then we'll all be writing letters 
about the missing channels or complaining more to DirectTV.

 present.
Not true at all.  Adding an additional satellite would absolutely
increase the system's bandwidth.  An additional satellite allows the
system to be configured for higher power, and higher power = increased
s/n ratio = greater bandwidth.
-jim-


I just read a bunch of the postings in this thread, and it's
interesting. I have noticed over the past few months a decrease in
quality on the DSS system that I assumed was due to increased channels
and bandwidth scrooges. Several things I've noticed:
1 - I frequently get the message "Program Guide Being Acquired" and get
delays when accessing the program guide that I never got before.
2 - On USSB channels I get more far more momentary freezes or bursts of
pixelation than I did before. They aren't all that often, but they used
to almost never occur unless I was in rain fade. My signal strength is
93.
3 - For me, the worst offenders are not USSB channels, the movie
channels on Direct TV, such as Mystery, STARZ, etc. show this problem a
lot more often. In fact, some of them are pretty horrid most of the
time. If anyone watched Apocalypse Now a month or two back on DirectTV
the fire was totally pixelated towards the end of the movie. Any fires
were unwatcheable, torches, camp fires, whatever.
So, I notice this as well, but more on DirecTV rather than USSB. I was
wondering if I was the only one to notice. Has anyone noticed this on
the other channels? Had similar experiences with the program guide.

 s/n ratio = greater bandwidth.
The improved signal to noise ratio permits the amount of bandwidth
dedicated to error correction to be decreased and the payload to
be increased.  Absolute signal bandwidth is not modified but the payload
(the interesting part of the signal) is increased.  In the case of
DSS the payload improves from about 23 MBPS to 30 MBPS per transponder.
--
Michael Weber
m...@fast.net

 letters about the missing channels or complaining more to DirectTV.
What can USSB do?  Several options are available to them.
(1) Reduce the number of channels.
(2) Develop and implement compression technology that permits adding
    more channels that use less bandwidth with less distortion using
    existing equipment.
(3) Convince DirecTV to lease to them some of their transponders at 101
    west longitude (this would force DirecTV to accomplish (2) above or
    reduce their programming).
(4) Prepare and launch a satellite to 148 west longitude where they
    have a license for eight DBS transponders.  This would only help
    those in the western US.  They will lose this license eventually
    if they don't show due diligence in construction of a satellite.
    Maybe they'll pay EchoStar 25% (8/32) of the cost to build, launch,
    and operate EchoStar IV (EchoStar has the other 24 DBS transponders
    at this orbit).  An additional antenna or a movable antenna would be
    needed to receive both 101 and 148.
(5) Prepare and launch a satellite to 110 west longitude where they
    have a license for three DBS transponders.  This will cover the same
    areas as their present 101 slot and a two LNBF dish design
    would need to be used.  They will lose this license eventually
    if they don't show due diligence in construction of a satellite.
    Maybe they'll pay MCI and News Corp. 18.8% (3/16) of the cost to
    build, launch, and operate either Sky 1 or Sky 2 (MCI and News Corp.
    have 28 of the other 29 DBS transponders at this orbit).
 
Of the options above, (1) is the easiest but would generate a loss of
subscribers. Option (2) will happen as time passes.  Option (3) is
unlikely since it would hurt DirecTV.  Option (4) would not permit full
use by the existing subscriber base but would generate the largest
increase in bandwidth.  Option (5) gives more bandwidth at the cost
of causing each subscriber to make a change in the reception equipment.
I suspect that USSB will implement advances in compression technology as
time passes and attempt to transfer their DBS licenses at other slots
to interested parties before they lose them.
--
Michael Weber
m...@fast.net

 I recently installed my Sony dish system and I have a signal strength 
1) USSB's lower quality is mostly due to the fact that it's providers,
e.g. HBO, Showtime, et al, are transmitted to USSB via an ANALOG
satelite uplink. This is BEFORE fixed-rate MPEG2 encoding is performed.
So the fault lies more with HBO and friends. To be fair, all of the
major providers plan to upgrade to a digital uplink for their
digital-ready carriers, though this may take a year or so. Even cable
companies may use this capability, though the trip down the cable will
ultimately re-introduce plenty of analog signal degradation. Due to the
"perfect" nature of digital transmission, the video signal is completely
UN-DEGRADED once it has been digitally encoded, no matter how far or how
many times it is transmitted. It's equivalent to having the studio
linked to your living room by a few meters of cable! Cool.
2) Some of DirecTV's offerings, such as STARZ, are better because they
originate *AT* DirecTV, and are MPEG encoded direct from a tape deck
feed. They never see an analog satelite uplink.
3) PPV is much better (laserdisk quality) because it is hand-encoded by
a technician, using different bit rates and encoding algorythms PER
SCENE, thereby optimizing as the movie plays, and never making
compromises. For example, when the scene is dark, the technician ups the
bit rate to compensate. As the library of content thus encoded grows,
(very time-and-labor intensive), the providers will use it and broadcast
it, rather than real time encoded analog tape feeds.
I enjoyed a two year stint at TELE-TV as an design engineer for
interactive TV set top soiftware. I picked up a generous dollup of
digital video knowledge there. (Enough to know that the future is
BRIGHT! DBS systems are just the start!)
Scott Mallonee
--

Scott (
smal...@us.newbridge.com
) wrote:
: 3) PPV is much better (laserdisk quality) because it is hand-encoded by
: a technician, using different bit rates and encoding algorythms PER
: SCENE, thereby optimizing as the movie plays, and never making
: compromises. For example, when the scene is dark, the technician ups the
: bit rate to compensate. As the library of content thus encoded grows,
: (very time-and-labor intensive), the providers will use it and broadcast
: it, rather than real time encoded analog tape feeds.
Why does the bit rate need to go up when the scene gets dark?

...
-small snip-


the other channels? Had similar experiences with the program guide.
It is likely that the Encore Networks are using heavy compression in
their satellite feeds to provide all those movie channels. Also, the
use of cheap analog comb filters for the uncompressed C-band sources,
as with USSB is inexcusible. This will interfere with MPEG-2
"masceration". 
The fact that DSS is getting away with their clearly subbroadcast
grade quality (and Stanley Hubbard knows) it, makes me fearful that
the forthcoming digital TV could "belly flop" in the market place AKA
quad sound in the 70's because of the abysmal retail marketplace
conditions and publich ignorance!
Louis A. Carliner
Your source for video calibration expertise for
Washington, D.C., Maryland, Virginia and West Virgina
as well as Southern Delaware UNTIL LATE 1997
in transistion to West Central Florida
by an ISF/Joe Kane trained specialist equipped with both
the Philips color analyser and ISF optical comparator.
  WILL TRAVEL ELSEWHERE! JUST PAY MY WAY!!
Phone: 
(301) 340-6120
email: 
lcar...@idsonline.com

 conditions and publich ignorance!
As "bad" as it is, the majority of DSS channels are far far better than
the best I got with cable, so I have to keep some perspective. Cable
here blows big time. But it's disappointing to see the technology
compromised mainly through not caring enough to do it right, and I feel
DVD and digital TV may well be similar. I've wondered how a "cheap"
transfer to LD would compare with a fast and dirty DVD transfer. A lot
of the theoretical advantage of DVD could be rapidly screwed up with bad
endoding systems, worse than a bad analog transfer. 
-- 
Jeff Swauger - "Hi Fi, Lo Fi, No Fi's just fine with me, and if you 
	           want to give me stereo first give me vitamin E!"

conditions and publich ignorance!
Calibration pandering deleted....
 
big...@primenet.com
 
http://www.primenet.com/~bigrex/
              (Bob Nixon)

 writes:
|> Someone wrote:
|>  
|> >   The only problem with your solution would be that additional satellite
|> > does not increase bandwidth, The FCC specified the frequency spectrum
|> > that could used.  Band width has to do with maximum frequencys
|> > broadcast.
|> 
|> Not true at all.  Adding an additional satellite would absolutely
|> increase the system's bandwidth.  An additional satellite allows the
|> system to be configured for higher power, and higher power = increased
|> s/n ratio = greater bandwidth.
|> 
|> -jim-
I guess we need to talk about spectral bandwidth verses data bandwidth.
You can get more data (ie - a higher data bandwidth) through the same 
amount of frequency bandwidth by increasing the signal to noise ratio 
of the channel.  This relates to Shannon's Capacity Theorem which states:
Capacity = W*log(1 + S/N)
where W = channel bandwidth (in Hertz)
log is base 2
S = signal power
N = noise power
So a channels capacity to send bits is directly related to frequency 
bandwidth and logarthmicly related to signal power (for SNR >> 1).
I hope that this helps
Regards
Scott Gaines

 >
People say that Starz is better than the others but on Cutthroat Island
the whole movie was a mass of artifacts, Something must be done! It's on
every channel.
Tim

Tim
They might have put those artifacts in on purpose so you wouldn't
notice what a piece of crap the movie is. :)
;p
Marc
 The keys to Marc42's Gate are here again
 
http://www.azaccess.com/~marc42
-----------------------------------------
"Let's face it...there's nothing more fun than
shaving...and there's nothing more ironic than
shaving a baby...and if there's one thing kids
love, it's irony!"
 - Johnny Bluejeans & The former Mrs Laupan
-----------------------------------------
      E-Mail: 
mar...@azaccess.com

 
Hmmm...I've not bought a PPV movie in quite a while. Lately I've been
content to wait a little longer and let them roll over to the other
movie channels. Maybe it's a good idea to keep this up, I (like you)
would be pretty pissed at paying for a movie and getting pixelation
crap. 
This is disturbing to hear, the PPV channels used to be incredibly good.
The films I have watched on them were all uniformly excellent, but as I
said it's been a while.

 about the missing channels or complaining more to DirectTV.
Forget about writing.  They can just toss all the mail aside.  How about
we all pick a dayand call their 800 number?  Keep the lines busy and they
will be paying for it in all sorts of ways.  Once they see that customers
are unhappy, they may try to do something.
The reason I am upset about this is that I called them when I got my DSS
and asked about the pixelation.  They had me call SONY, my dealer, take
down the unit to the dealer to see if the unit was faulty, etc. etc.  All
becuase they kept saying "NO one else has any pixelation problems.  You
should be getting Laser Disc quality..."  Lies.
This was a month ago.  I have noticed that Stars and Encore have worse
pixelation than USSB, so I will be focusing on DirecTV.
If there is enough interest, then I can set up a homepage so we can pick a
date to flood their 800 lines.  I may even be able to send you all a
reminder notice on the selected day (How's July 3?  Right before the long
weekend?)
-mz
mz-...@aggroup.com
By sending any unsolicited commercial e-mail to this address, you agree to pay $100 per e-mail in order for me to read that e-mail.  You also agree that I may collect this fee, and any surcharges I incur, from your Internet Service Provider or local phone company, who may bill you that amount on your phone bill.

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