Newsgroup: it.hobby.armi
Titolo: combat shotgun (lungo)

riporto di seguito in lingua originale, dei messaggi da rec.guns
cosa ne pensate?
mi lascia interdetto che gli angli usassero lo shot gun con canne da 28 e
solo 4 colpi (sebatoi standard) quando potyevano avere di più anche
all'epoca.
che ne pensate dell'uso (suggerito o effettivo? non si capisce bene) dello
shotgun in sostituzione del Bren 303?
e delle munizioni duplex? secondo un articolo sui tac armi di Romanini, il
4,5 mm (BB) è letale fino a 25 mt, mentre il 00 (11/0 italiano) lo è fino a
130 mt.
opinioni e commenti?
"Malayan Jungle Round/Mix"     "Rhodesian Jungle Round/Mix"
This is Part one of a Two part post. The sister post relates to Combat
shotguns themselves.
For those who are not knowledgeable on firearms in general and shotguns in
particular, be aware that there are advocates and detractors (in the guise
of
both combat-experienced and "armchair commado") galore with regard to it's
use
in combat, police and self-defense circles. What I will try to focus on here
is
strictly the combat aspect of use. Also, be aware I've never been in the
military, had combat experience, etc; thoughts and ideas just come and go in
my
head and I needed to get this out so maybe it'll stop pestering me. I'm not
advocating replacing the rifle with a shotgun, nor an attempt to give
someone a
"CYA" approach for poor marksmanship. Rather, my logic sees it as maximizing
the shotguns hit potential.  In other words don't flame me because you're
opinion isn't the same as mine.
In the past couple of years, as I've been learning about the combat shotgun
and its use, I've become increasingly interested in this particular loading.
I've searched the internet and newsgroups, read more than a few magazines
and a
couple of books pertaining to shotguns, even have Louis Awerbuck's "The
Combat
Shotgun" video. Recently, attention to the subject was brought to me again
with
regard to a follow-up letter by one D. W. Reiley in the August 2002 Gun
World.
He went into detail about the "Malayasian Jungle Round" that Leroy Thompson
had
mentioned in his article "Special Purpose Combat Shotgun Ammunition" in the
May
2002 Gun World. Reiley stated 6 00 buck pellets and between 10 to 20 BB
pellets
in the mix. Further checking, I found mention in another Gun World article
by
Thompson, "Todays Autoloading Combat Shotguns" in the July 2000 issue. Tom
Swearengen's book "The Worlds Fighting Shotguns," especially details of the
Malayan Emergency has had influences on my thinking as well.
Among the myriad of practical and impractical loading for the combat
shotgun,
I score the buckshot/birdshot mix on the practical, within the shotguns
given
limitations. It is true that the shotgun is basically a short-range tool,
and I
feel the "Jungle Mix" can maximize its effectiveness.
Commercially, this is sold by both Firequest and Hi-Vel as the "Rhodesian
Jungle Round." It features six 00 Buckshot surrounded by #4 birdshot
according
to the advertising. Last I checked, Firequest wanted $14.99/3pk and Hi-Vel
$9.95/3pk. Expensive. I've no personal experience with it. The closest I've
come is in "reloading" some shells I had pried open, leaving the polymer wad
in
place, to check the charges of shot in. Here are the results.
Federal 1 oz. Dove/Quail shell (FD12-8) â?"
6 "00" buck 40 #4 birdshot
Remington 1-1/4 oz. Express Long Range shell â?"
6 "00" buck 45 #4 birdshot
6 "00" buck 20 #BB birdshot (Used Crossman 4.5mm Copperplated BBs)
9 "#1" buck 22 #BB birdshot (Used Crossman 4.5mm Copperplated Bbs)
Sellier & Bellot #4 Buckshot High Brass spent shell (with fiberwad) â?"
6 "00" buck 60 #4 birdshot
6 "00" buck 13 #BB birdshot (Used Crossman 4.5mm Copperplated BBs)
7 "#1" buck 22 #BB birdshot (Used Crossman 4.5mm Copperplated BBs)
Note: Measured against a loaded #4 Buck shell
Ironically, I was first exposed to this shot combination back in 1983. In
the
Gold Eagle Mack Bolan spin-off series, ABLE Team, #4 "Amazon Slaughter",
team
member Carl "Ironman" Lyons carried an "Atchisson Assault 12" shotgun, which
he
would learn later was not really an Atchisson, but in fact a new weapon
built
by the armorer, Konzaki, to improve on the design. Discussing this with
assistant armorers of Konzaki, they redubbed it the "Konzak." Pictures on
the
series covers showed the original Atchisson design, and later on, the 1984
improved clamshell Atchisson was pictured. The primary load consisted of a
Short Magnum shell, with a standard charge of powder, and by cutting down on
wadding, fit 8 00-buck and fifty #2 steel shot in each shell. So loaded,
with a
full 7-rd magazine and one chambered, he could put out over 400 pellets.
This,
as Konzaki told them, was similar to the loading the British developed for
use
in Malaya. Though I was impressed with the idea, I wasn't very interested in
shotguns at the time. My how time changes things.
As outlined by Swearengen in his book, there were two lines of thought laid
out in the Malayan Study for effective use of the shotgun. The standard SG
(00
buckshot) load was effective out to 75 yards. This train of thought was an a
shotgun exhibiting tighter patterns at 50 yards to maximize long-range
shooting.
However, since the majority of engagements were at 10 to 20 yards, these
quick, short- ranged engagements needed a more efficient close-range load.
Swearengen notes "a so-called all- purpose combat shell was developed
containing more and smaller shot than the SG load." To me, that could be
taken
as using smaller buckshot, not necessarily a combination.  I never found
specific mention of a Malayan jungle mix or bird/buckshot combination. He
did
note that in Rhodesia, No. 3 or 4 buckshot was used in the shotguns. These
mixed shot "jungle loads" containing a few buckshot and several birdshot
pellets would, for ambush/counter-ambush have a slightly wider pattern
dispersement as the birdshot spread. Rieley had noted that when he and
friends
made their own jungle mix the patterns were inconsistent, unpredictable.
A chief advantage of shotguns is its balance of capacity vs outlay of total
submissles. Many detractors state the low capacity of the shotgun as a
disadvantage. Checking the Mossberg catalog, an M-590A1 (No. 51411) 18.5"
barreled model may only hold 5+1 while it's 20" brother (No. 51660) can hold
8+1 rounds. With each shell holding 9 00 buckshot, that gives you from 54 (6
round ) to 81 (8 round). The New Benelli M-4/M-1014 being adopted by the
armed
services has a listed capacity of 6+1, or 63 total 00 buck pellets. Other
variables, such as changing shot size will alter figures till you're blue in
the face working them.
Another issue brought up in newsgroup posts concerning Home Defense can be
weighed here. That is the subject of staggering shells. Buck, birdshot,
buckshot, birdshot, etc. That is why the idea of such buck/birdshot
combinations appeal to me for a combat weapon.
The British found the semi-automatic to be ideal when fed reliable
ammunition.
Remember the paper shells have a tendency to swell and not feed reliably in
the
damp moisture of a jungle environment. According to Swearengen's book, the
British study even recommended the Browning Auto-5 replace the BREN light
machine gun, despite the fact it lacked the BREN's foilage-penetration
capability. Its five rounds, however, spat 45 pellets to the BREN's 30
bullets.
With regard to using such a mixed shell combination in combat consider the
following, using the U.S.M.C.'s new M-1014 semi-automatic shotgun made by
Benelli (or any other semi-auto shotgun for that matter).
With a capacity of 7 rounds, you load 4 shells of 00 (9/shell - 36 total).
Add
3 Remington Express Long Range shells with either #BB (average 62/shell -
186
total), #2 (average 108/shell - 324 total) or #4 (average 168/shell - 504
total).
00 + #BB = 222 total outlay of pellets
00 + #2 = 360 total outlay of pellets
00 + #4 = 540 total outlay of pellets
John Schafer points out in his article on Combat Shotguns (see Recommended
material) that the military is more interest in wounding the enemy to draw
other troops to their wounded. Another thing to consider with this, since it
is
jungle environments this type of round found favor, is that there is a lack
of
well sterilized guerrilla hospitals to be found. Just as with the larger
pellets, the little ones make nasty wounds that must be tended to. That
element, to wound the enemy is a critical factor in the concept of the mixed
shot load.
--------------------------------------------------------
Combat Shotguns
This is part Two of a Two part post.  The sister post to "Jungle Rounds". I
decided to separate the two for reasons of length.
During the Malayan Emergency a number of small arms were used by the British
rubber plantation owners, tin miners, British police and military forces.
I'd
like to take a little time to go over some of what would be used, although
the
primary focus of the post is on the shotgun. Tom Swearengen's "The World's
Fighting Shotguns," of course shed light on shotgun use, but I found Noel
Barber's book, "War of the Running Dogs" helpful too. There is an internet
site
also, but at this time I cannot recall the link.
Among those used were British staples â?" Enfield rifles, BRENs, STENs,
Webley
revolvers, Browning GP-35 "Hi-Powers", the then new FN FAL, Australian Owen
Submachine guns, Thompson submachine guns and M-1 Carbines.
Ira Phelps was a tin mine operator when the Emergency started. He was
concerned for his mens safety and went to the local police looking for
assistance. He was told they had 1,000 M-1 Carbines and plenty of ammo. He
asked to buy them, it was no problem, except there was one clip for the
whole
lot. Phelps couldn't believe it, but asked the officer if he could borrow it
to
make a duplicate. His men were able to make dies and duplicate the magazine,
then he went and struck a deal with the police, clips for them, rifles and
ammunition for him. Three clips for every rifle he got.
Norman Cleaveland was in Pacific Tin's headquarters at Ampang trying to get
arms for his people. Efforts locally and with the British end were not
producing satisfactory results. Finally, he wired his New York office for
arms.
There reply was "If we send you arms, wouldn't you be making yourself a
target
for reprisals?" His return cable was direct - "I am a target." That got the
attention needed "The next day New York agreed to everything Cleaveland
asked
forâ?"a Pan-American charter plane carrying three hundred revolvers, five
hundred sawn-off shotguns, sixty riot guns, some sub-machine guns and 70,000
rounds of ammunition."
Arthur Young was General Templer's choice to restructure the police force.
He
presented an assessment of what he may need. "Templer immediately backed
Young's request for 120 armoured cars, 250 scout cars, 600 armed personnel
carriers. Young estimated that he would need two thousand vehicles, plus
large
numbers of tommy-guns and twelve-bore pump guns for jungle work."
Two civilians H.F. de C. Lucy, better known as Peter, and, "Tommy", his wife
were critical sources of information for Barber's book. Tommy wrote daily to
family and for personal reasons, and Barber cites her as a source of much
information, she was so detailed in her letters. After several attacks, when
the plantation had been hardened with additional arms, wire, guards and
other
measures, Peter took to carrying his 12-gauge shotgun daily and had to
change
his entire routine as a bounty was on his head. When the plantation was
under
attack, Tommy manned a BREN in a fortified room, before, during and after
the
birth of her twins. The finally left Malaya for Kenya to raise sisal.
When the New villages started under Gurney were established things had gone
fairly well. Templer had seen reason to utilize the Chinese Home Guard to
protect them from CT (Communist Terrorists). To instill confidence. There
were
risks involved, as was proven at Kulai New Village. Ironically, it was one
of
Templer's prize villages. One night some CTs gained access to the Village,
the
Home Guard Chinese had been "overawed" by them. Though no fighting took
place,
20 shotguns were taken. Templer swept down on the villagers, furious as a
mad
hornet. He would, however, send new shotguns to replace those stolen, but
the
people never forgot.
Sporting shotguns were a primary arm for many rubber plantation operators,
especially those like Peter Lucy who were avid bird hunters. In the British
arsenals, there were several types available, the old single-shot Greener,
the
classic double-barrel, the Browning semi-automatic, and later, the
pump-action.
Neither the single-shot Greener or double-barrels could offer the necessary
output of ammunition the Browning semi-automatic could. Swearengen notes the
shotgun selected for issue to the Security forces came with a 28-inch,
modified
choke barrel and the standard 4+1 capacity. It was 48 Â½" long overall and
weighed about 7 pounds unloaded, or nine loaded. The Browning could, in
skilled
hands, dump its payload with accuracy in about 3 seconds or less. With the
close-contact engagements, it was determined an extended capacity would come
in
handy for "firepower."
When the Remington Model 870R, 20" riot guns were introduced the troops had
mixed feelings. The shorter-barreled pump was handier in the bush than the
Browning, but they much preferred the Browning's semi-automatic functioning.
As
Swearengen notes, 20" modified choke barrels could have been obtained from
the
factory for the Brownings, but the British never saw fit to modify them.
Don't think, however this is a glossy promo for shotguns, however. In the
March 1985 Soldier of Fortune, Harry Clafin had an article titled, "Shotgun
Shortcomings." Except for specialized missions, he felt the shotgun is not
for
the regular infantryman. It was suited for "a day-long, day-light, small
unit
ambush patrol." It is necessary to clarify his points.
Day-long?
Compare the size/weight of 20 12-gauge shotshells to 20 .308 Winchester/7.62
NATO and 20 .223 Remington/5.56 NATO shells. As he put it, "You'd need
native
bearers for a long patrol."
Day-light?
When you shoot the shotgun at night, you're going to get a nice big ball of
flame and noise. After that first shot, it will be difficult to see for a
little bit.
Ammunition choices.
While the civilian and police markets are going to the No. 4 buckshot,
military engagements need the heavier, better penetrating 00 buckshot.
Pump vs. Semi-auto.
While the pump is simple, reliable and open to a variety of loads, it is
hard
to work as you lay on your belly.
Reliability?
The Browning Auto-5 was subjected to all sorts of tests not only by the
factory and Browning himself, but the military as well.  The newer semi-
automatic shotguns, like Clafin's favorite Benelli, are reliable when
maintained.     Note: see Bruce Canfield's book.
Stocks.
Stick to the conventional stocks, don't bother with folding versions.
One final note on shotgun use by the military. In 1985, Gung Ho had an
article
in its "Special Purpose Ammunition Weapons and Tactics Annual" by Tom
Swearengen. There was a sidebar by the editor, Jim Shults regarding the next
generation of shotgun ammunition; the CAWS ammunition. He made an
observation
about communist-backed tropical-based, which at the time were running
rampant,
about shotgun use. "The average engagement range in Rhodesia, for example,
was
well under 25 meters; who needs a rifle for that?"
Recommended material -
Awerbuck, Louis - The Defensive Shotgun
Awerbuck, Louis - The Combat Shotgun
Ayoob, Massad - Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun
Barber, Noel  - War of the Running Dogs (About the Malayan Emergency)
Canfield, Bruce - A Collector's Guide to United States Combat Shotguns
Cirillo, Jim - Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights
Farnam, John - The Farnam Method of Defensive Shotgun and Rifle Shooting
Suarez, Gabriel - The Tactical Shotgun
Swearengen, Thomas - The World's Fighting Shotguns
Other helpful material -
Britains Small Wars - 
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/
Clapp, Wiley - Buckshot is Bad News - Modern Law Enforcement Weapons &
Tactics,
1988, pp. 130-137.
Clapp, Wiley - Coming to Grips with the Combat Shotgun - Guns & Ammo,
December
2000, pp. 106-111.
Clapp, Wiley - Tactical Buckshot and Chokes - American Rifleman, June 1998,
pp
42-45, 58-9.
Clapp, Wiley - The Buck Stops Here - Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement,
January 2002, pp. 54-7, 76.
Crist, Stan - High Performance Buckshot - S.W.A.T., October 1994, pp. 48-51.
Crist, Stan - Maximizing the Police Shotgun -Guns & Weapons for Law
Enforcement, 1995 Annual, pp. 30-33, 92-94.
Crist, Stan - The New U.S.M.C. Combat Shotgun - Guns & Weapons for Law
Enforcement, November 1995, pp. 38-41, 78-9.
Cutshaw, Charles - Heckler & Koch/Benelli's M4 Super 90/XM1014
Grubb, Ken - Need advice on a first shotgun - In Newsgroup: rec.guns  Date:
1999/05/07
Schaefer, John - Some Thoughts on the Combat Shotgun - (Excellent web page)
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/shotgun.htm
Thanks to the guys on the Britains Small Wars forum, who pointed me to "War
of
the Running Dogs." I really enjoyed it!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at              
http://www.recguns.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
--
Ciao, Giampingjack
<<Chi ha aspettato di trovarsi in situazioni difficili per impararne a
uscire non è illuminato. Chi studia la situazione in anticipo e si prefigura
ogni evenienza e le possibili soluzioni è saggio e, quando l'occasione si
presenta è capace di affrontarla nel modo migliore.>>
       Hagakure ( I, 21)

In giungla un Bren era sicuramente piů pesante del .12 ed era altresě
alimentato solo con caricatori. Se avessero avuto una Minimi con
alimentazione a nastri, il .12 lo avrebbero lasciato al nonno.
Il .12, militarmente parlando, a munizione spezzata č efficace fino a 30
- 40 metri. Anche troppi per la giungla.
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 Il .12, militarmente parlando, a munizione spezzata è efficace fino a 30


Per me il discorso si riferisce ai Rodesiani che hanno subito l'embargo,
anche dalla stessa madre patria (U.K.), in quanto stato coloniale di
"bianchi
razzisti".
Pertanto, utilizzavano quello che avevano, come i vecchi Dakota per i
lanci dei paracadutisti. Così, probabilmente avevano a disposizione dei
fucili da caccia e li hanno utilizzati. Comunque, la canna lunga
consente rosate più strette e tiro utile più lungo. Guarda i .12
preparati per il tiro pratico.
Ciao.


 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:511f49cb57c1def6f63...@mygate.mailgate.org...


Allora si vede che hanno subito un avvelenamento da teina per i troppi
"tea-break"!
