Newsgroup: it.arti.cinema
Titolo: (MO) Interview with Mustafa Barghouthi in Ramallah

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=12324
Znet
March 14, 2007
By Christopher Pastor
[From July 29 2006. Update: Barghouthi has been
suggested as minister of information for the new unity
government, although he has also expressed plans to
pursue the foreign ministry post.]
[Barghouthi was named information minister 
March 17 - Portside]
CP: when you were running for president against Abbas,
what was it like to campaign against somebody who had
the US, Israel, so much money and support on his side?
MB: For me it was very good. If Arafat had been alive,
I would've run against him also, as a matter of
principle, that this country needs a different
alternative. I was running for two purposes: one
purpose was to win and to be able to run the
Palestinian struggle, which I believe we can still do
better than them. Second, I was running for the purpose
of democracy, to have a true competition. And I believe
if we would not have had this presidential election,
and that tough race, and if Fatah had not had to
encounter that true competition in that race, we would
not have a very good legislative council election
later. It was a step to build up democracy, and it was
an effort, I mean, it wasn't just me running in that
election, it was the whole idea of establishing the
Palestinian National Initiative (PNI) as a new movement
outside the PLO, I mean, that there can be new
movements in Palestine that have not been historically
in the PLO, and they do not have to be fundamentalist
like Hamas, because if you look at the political
spectrum you have the PLO groups that have not changed
much in the last 30 years, or 40 years, and then you
have the Hamas fundamentalist and jihad groups which
have a certain ideology. But I believe that there is
huge majority in the middle, silent majority, that
wants a different alternative. So me running in the
presidential election was part of a campaign to
establish this third line, the third alternative, and
in that sense I think we succeeded dramatically,
getting almost 20% of the vote. A new movement that was
only 2.5 yrs old, running for presidency and getting
almost 20% of the vote. Many other parties who had been
there for forty years, could not get close and got 2%
or 2.5%. although they were running against us, not
against Arafat by the way, just 3 or 4 other
candidates. But we managed to establish what we call
pluralism and we managed to establish true competition,
and that was very,very important, and if Fatah had not
had the support of those who were employed in the
government sector, we would have beaten them. So, how
does it feel? It felt great!
CP: How do you see, today, a potential political
solution?
MB: There are two options. And the choice is Israel's.
Either we have two states, and for us two states means
the end of occupation, every inch of the occupied
territories of 1967. This is not a just solution, but
it's a fair compromise. And I think Palestinians agree
with that; even Hamas now agrees with that. So there is
a majority of Palestinians who would accept stability
and peace based on two state solution with the
establishment of an independent state in the 1967
borders. If that happens, then we have one solution,
which is a two-state solution. So, that is one option.
But it means Israel's ending the occupation of the West
Bank and East Jerusalem, and a Palestinian state that
is really sovereign, that has its own borders. And I
think part of the solution is to bring in international
troops to be stationed on the borders on both sides
just to be sure that there will no violation of any
kind. To me, this is the best option. But if Israel
does not allow it to happenâ€¦ We are witnessing
increasingly, every day, a situation where Israel is
taking more land, more land from the other side. And if
Israel does not agree to a two state solution then
there will be only one option which is a one state
solution. Israel is now transforming the occupation
into an apartheid, actually already has transformed the
occupation into apartheid. And there are two things
that I am  sure about. First of all, that Palestinians
will never accept to be slaves of the occupation or to
an apartheid system. Second, that a compromise that is
less than the areas of 1967, will not provide a strong
base for stability.
CP: Israel is an apartheid state?
MB: It is, absolutely.
CP: What is your feeling about armed resistance vs.
non-violent resistance?
MB: I believe that while Palestinians in general have
the right to resist in every possible way according to
international law, there should never be any attack on
civilians, there should not be any violations of
international regulations, which, by the way, Israel
keeps violating. But even if Israel violates them, we
shouldn't. On the other hand, I believe that after all
these years, that military confrontation can only be in
the interest of Israel. There are no conditions for
military struggle, and I believe that the best approach
that we advocate, and I advocate, is a non-violent
approach of mass popular resistance against the
occupation.
CP: So, morally and ethically Palestinians have the
right to practice armed struggle but practically maybeâ€¦
MB: Legally! Legally. We follow international law. We
follow what international law says.  But, I believe
that our first approach should be non-violence. I don't
like violence. I personally don't like violence. I have
a problem with violence. It doesn't only include
military action. Even if I see a man beating his child,
I have a big problem with that. So, it is a personal
and  moral issue. In principle, I think we always have
to retain the moral superiority against our occupier.
CP: In 2002, you left the PPP (Palestinian People's
Party) to form the PNI. What was the main reason for
that?
MB: The main reason for that was the PPP became an
adjunct and a follower of Fatah, and it lost its
independence. If you want a specific main reason.
CP: Was there any particular policy thatâ€¦
MB: They simply failed to follow the program that we
had written together- I wrote most of it - which is to
be an independent force. And to follow their social
policies. I'm a believer in a movement that is not only
political, but also social. And I think they failed in
that, and they would not allow us to form policies that
would go in the direction of the majority inside the
party, and I expect democracy. Another reason was that
the period for which I was elected for the leadership
of that party, and I was in top leadership, you know,
had expired in 2002. And I was insisting to have a
congress. The congress in which I was elected was in
1998. It expired in 2002. There should have been
another congress We are now in 2006, and they still
haven't had a congress. So I thought I did my duty, I
was elected for four years, I finished my four years, I
respect democracy, I do not  like splits, so my option
in order to not allow a split in the party was leaving.
And the movement that we created the Palestinian
National Initiative, was on a completely different
ground. I think it was some kind of simple democratic
approach, which came out of lots of discussions with
people like Dr. Haidar Abdel-Shafi who is a well-known
Palestinian leader, as well as the founder, the main
founder, of this party, and Dr. Edward Said. So what we
established was really a movement of the future. We
tried to liberate it from ideological restriction and
stiff approaches. The most important thing in our minds
is that we were establishing a movement that is there
to serve the people, not itself, and the whole
population, not only its cabinet. And with a clear
political and social mission.
CP: In the international 'community' who do you see as
Palestine's friends?
MB: The people. The people of the world. Whoever they
are, wherever they are. I am pretty sure any people
anywhere, any ordinary people anywhere, if they are
allowed to get the right information in an objective
manner they will be supportive of the Palestinian
people. That's why our fight, our struggle is also a
struggle for media, and for knowledge. We did a film
together with Daniel Barenboim about the Joint
Orchestra which Edward Said and he founded, the West-
Eastern Divan. And I became part of the experience.
That film's title was 'Knowledge is the Beginning'. And
I believe that knowledge is the beginning. If people
get to know the reality objectively, I believe in
humanity. I believe in human quality, in people. I
believe that, even if they are bad sometimes, there is
an important human side of every human being, that one
should look at and look for. And I believe that our
allies are the people. It's just a matter of time and
right conditions for them to realize what is going on.
CP: Do you ever visit the EU or US?
MB: Always. I visit the EU constantly. Of course my
time is limited, so I go for very short visits. I have
been in many countries. I insist on going to the
States, and try to go and speak there and interact with
people. My last visit included Stanford University, Los
Angeles, Madison University in Wisconsin, Seattle,
Washington D.C. I think I've already lectured in every
important university in the states. Really, Name anyone
and I think I've been there: UCLA, Harvard, Columbia
Johns Hopkins, Atlanta, San Francisco University,
Berkley, Princeton. I even spoke in Iceland.
CP: Did you meet any resistance coming into the states?
MB: No
CP: Harvard has a person named Alan Dershowitzâ€¦
MB: I always find people who oppose me. The Israeli
lobby always works against us. But I cannot recall a
single situation where it was hard. My talk is always
full of facts and graphs and maps, it's about objective
reality. And there were many occasions when they came
and we had good interactions. It was never a problem
for me. I just wish I had more time to do more of that.
CP: In March 2004 Sheik Amed Yassin, the spiritual
leader of Hamas, was assassinated by Israel. Can you
say anything about that?
MB: It's part of an assassination policy, that has
taken the life of many people. Arafat was assassinated,
I think. So, it's a policy. And it does not produce
results, because they kill Sheik Yassin, but they have,
in his place, so many other people. So I don't think
political assassination ever helps anybody's cause.
CP: So, this policy of assassination is not going to
serve Israel's needs?
MB: No.
CP: But it's a policy. And you think Arafat was
assassinated?
MB: It looks like it. I cannot prove it.
CP: You were part of the Madrid peace negotiations.
What was the most important result of those
negotiations, negative or positive?
MB: The main result that was positive, was that
Palestinians were recognized as people. Their rights
were recognized.  Without that process we would not
have reached the point where even the American
president of the United States and the British Prime
Minister stand in front of the press and admit that
there should be a Palestinian state. So, in that sense
it was a big success. And it was the result of the
Palestinian first intifada. If there were no
Palestinian first intifada, Israel would never have sat
down and negotiated with Palestinians. The sad thing,
is that the opportunity was lost because of the poor
performance and leadership of the PLO leaders, who were
trapped by Israel in the Oslo process. We could have
probably gotten a Palestinian state and peace a long
time ago. That's my belief.
CP: You mean the PLO was being a little too soft when
they were negotiating?
MB: Not too soft. They fell in the trap of giving up
too much in exchange for Israel accepting them and
recognizing them. You can justify anything, except one
thing that is unforgivable: to sign an agreement
without Israel's commitment to stop expanding
settlements. That is a fatal and unacceptable fault
CP: What is the best English-language source of news on
Palestine?.
MB: Palestine Monitor.
CP: What do you think we need to do in the West, to
help bring about change?
MB: I think what's needed is to solve a very basic
question. Which is that Palestinians are equal human
beings like everybody else. And we are entitled to the
same freedom, dignity and rights that every other
person has in this world. And if that idea is accepted
then it comes natural that we should support ending the
occupation and oppression of Palestinians and support
the rights of Palestinians, including a state. But I
think also that one very important point is finding a
way of liberating people's minds in the West from the
dominance of the Israeli-Americans in the news.
CP: The Israeli lobby?
MB: Yeah. It is dominating. The Israeli narrative
dominates the media. And the media dominates the minds
of the politicians and the people.
CP: 99% of the people in the West Bank are very
welcoming to Americansâ€¦
MB: People here have no problem with America or with
American people. They have a problem with American
official policy. And people here are hospitable to
foreigners in general. It's a very tolerant society.
People like many things that are American. But they
don't like American policy; because it's wrong. And I
think the American policy with regard to being totally
biased toward Israel, contradicts its constitution,
contradicts the claimed American values, contradicts
even the expression of the President from time to time.
And I think the American policy in the Middle East
contradicts the national interest of the American
people.
CP: One last question, and it's not really a question,
but it's an offer for you to say something that needs
to be said that we haven't already covered.
MB: There is one thing I'd like to mention, and that is
that there comes a time in people's lives when they
cannot take injustice any more. And that time has come
for the Palestinians. We are unable to tolerate any
more injustice.
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Ciao
Nicola
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