Newsgroup: it.arti.ballo.lat-americano
Titolo: Clave de rumba: how many?

Hello, I often read these very interesting newsgroups.
I'm from Italy and we also have a ng on order to speak about afro-latin
music and dance.
In these days we are trying to understand about the Clave de Rumba; I
know that usually this clave is a 3/2, but someone says that there is
also a 2/3 clave de rumba.
Could you please give me some information about this? 
Thanks in advance
-- 
Silvana la Flaca 

Well, I think some would say that 2/3 and 3/2 are not really two separate
claves, but just denotes where the musical phrase starts in relation to the
clave.
I think it's the same with rumba clave as with son clave, that the music can
start either on the 3 side or the 2 side. If I'm wrong, someone please
correct.
"Silvana la Flaca" <silg...@UFFAtin.it> wrote in message
news:a72a8s$p72$1...@newsreader.mailgate.org...


...

Dear Sivana
Claveholic that I am, I could not resist your innocent question.  You
may have set off one of our periodic clave wars, so I will try to get
in the first shot, then take cover.  I hope I am not supplying more
information tyan you care to hear.
1)  What most people in the USA call "rumba clave" (Cuban master
Lazaro Pedroso calls it "Black Clave") can be portrayed like this.
with the x indicating a strike and the O a rest (silence).  The
pattern is shown as two bars of 4/4 rhythm:
xooxoooxooxoxooo
It is the correct pattern for guaguancó, the most commonly heard rumba
variant.  It is what it is; there is no 2/3 or 3/2 variation.
2)  Another clave rhythm is called son clave, salsa clave, and
ballorom clave.  Lazaro calls it Clave Blanca.  It is used for son and
salsa, and often for the slower rumba variant called yambu.  It
differs from the "rumba clave" only in that the third eighth note come
one eighth note earlier.
xooxooxoooxoxooo
Some people insist that there are two different son claves: 3/2 (shown
above) and 2/3   (ooxoxooxoxoxoo).  Others, myself included, believe
that these two clave rhythms are the same thing, and that 2/3 clave is
just 3/2 starting in the middle of the pattern.
I have come to the the conclusion that for percussionists, 2/3 and 3/2
are indeed one and the same thing, because the clave pattern fits with
the other percussion instruments in exactly the same fashion no matter
where it starts.
For piano, horns, etc, and especially for arrangers, the terms 3/2 and
2/3 ARE relevant and helpful because the terminology helps them
describe the feel and fit of the whole arrangement.
Remember that 2/3 and 3/2 apply only to son clave, NOT rumba clave.
3)  Rumba columbia sometimes uses clave, or the clave is included
within the bell or cascara parts.  It is shown as two bars of 6/8, but
many people hear it was the same thing as rumba clave, just in a 6/8
"feel".
xoxooxoxoxoo
4) Finally, and just to muddy the waters, there are special claves for
flamenco rumba.  An addemdum in Spanish follows at the end of this
message.  I also include a blurb for "Dr. Clave" and I can suggest you
search for the website of Rebecca Mauleon (accent on the o) who has a
nice scholarly article on clave.
Best wishes to you and all our Italian brothers and sisters.
Phil "Felipe" Pasmanick, el rumbero menor.
"Arrivederchi Roma, en Italia un Guaguanco"
ASK DOCTOR CLAVE
Visit the Bembe website for the latest informative discussion of clave
in the "Ask Dr. Clave" column. A very complete approach to writing out
clave, notating clave, incorporating quinto and much more. It's long
but
worth the effort for anyone interested in clave and Afro-Cuban music.
(
http://www.bembe.com/drclave.html
)
RUMBA CATALANA (FLAMENCA)
Bien, desde el punto de vista cubano.
Los gitanos catalanes invierten los nombres y a la clave de son
(xooxooxo|ooxoxooo) la llaman clave de rumba, mientras
que a la clave de rumba (xooxooox|ooxoxooo) la llaman clave cubana.
 
 Existen otras variantes de clave, pero todas ellas, junto a las
anteriores,
 siguen el mismo esquema:
 
 El simbolo Z indica golpe o silencio (optativo)
 El simbolo O indica silencio requerido
 El simbolo X indica golpe requerido
 
 XOOXZOZZ OOXOZZOO
 
 Como verás, el esquema esencial está basado en tres golpes ("tierra"
en el
 tiempo 1 del primer compás, "bombo" en el tiempo 2 1/2 del primer
compàs y
 finalmente en el tiempo 2 del segundo compàs, lo que significa una
serie de
 golpes inamovibles en la primera mitad de ambos compases (negrita en
el
 esquema). De este esquema resultan una multitud de variaciones,
aunque las
 más usuales utilizan un solo golpe optativo en la segunda mitad de
cada
 compás, de los tres posibles en el primer compás (generalmente 4 o 4
1/2) y
 de los dos posibles en el segundo compás.
 
 Finalmente, en algunos temas se añade un compàs de tiempo 2/4 o 3/4
al final
 de cada clave, por ejemplo:
 
 XOOXOOXOO OOXOXOOO OX
 
 XOOXOOXOO OOXOXOOO XXX
http://www.gracianet.org/soroll/rumba/


Mike, wasn't it you that corrected me a few months ago when I said the
"clave de rumba" was 2:3? You said it wasn't. It seems now that you're
not so sure.
2:3 , 3:2. What's the answer?
César.

Previously.... on rec.music.afro-latin, 
kvet...@aol.com
 (Philip
Felipe  Pasmanick) wrote:
Thank you for the explanation Felipe, it wasn't intended for me but
made it a little clear. Unfortunately, I read it after I sent my
comment to Mike Spector. I was correct to begin with anyway.
This clave mini-clinic  is a keeper.
César.

 information tyan you care to hear.
WOW! This kind of explanation is the best I could have hoped for.
Never too many, with such informations!
Thank you very much, dear Philip.
-- 
Bye, Silvana la Flaca 


I've never thought about it. It sounds illogical. Offhand, I don't
know whether the "feel and fit" of every single rumba melody is 3/2.
Is it, in fact?
But as you know, rumba clave is frequently used in other Latin music,
notably latin jazz. I can't come up with any examples just now - I'll
have to think about it, and do some listening. But it would surprise
me if there is no body of music where 2/3 rumba clave doesn't feel
more natural than 3/2.
I would think Kevin or Curtis could give us some examples from timba.
 - Mike Doran

 
I would say the same. But talking about rumba concerns yambu,
guaguanco and columbia just to mention the most important forms.
I learned that:
1. yambu uses son clave
2. guaguanco uses 'rumba' clave
3. columbia uses 6/8 clave
So there are not only two but six kinds of clave in cuban rumba.
Manfred Mirsch

 Could you please give me some information about this?
...interessante sto thread....e per chi l'inglese lo spiccica giusto negli
aeroporti, nei ristoranti e negli hotel??????? X_X .....???? Mi
dirai...beh...li la clave mica ti serve... ;oPPPP
Bacetto Corinna * ;o)
VI

 Is it, in fact?
Note: Orlando is touring in Europe, which is why all hell is not 
currently breaking loose!! While the presumption that there is no such 
thing as 2:3 clave seems preposterous, Orlando in fact has a profoundly 
fascinating explation for that claim which he explained to me in a 3 
hour phone conversation, but which has never fully explained in a post. 
Although we've beaten the "existence of 2:3" debate into the ground, 
we've yet to really get into his REASON for taking that bizarre stand, 
which has more to do with the differences between NY/PR salsa and Cuban 
salsa than it does to do with clave.
That said, the only bone I have to pick with Kvetcher's excellent 
analysis is the above quote, and even Orlando won't disagree with me.
If, and I repeat IF, one decides that there IS such a thing as 2:3, then 
there's at least as much 2:3 rumba and there is 2:3 son in both dance 
and folkloric music. All you have to do is listen to music to hear it. 
Just one example: the recent Charanga Habanera album "Charanguero 
Mayor", is entirely in 2:3 rumba clave. Name any Cuban group and I will 
give you a list of songs they've done in 2:3 clave. Those who choose to 
use the term 2:3 simply mean songs where the naturally occurring 4 bar 
phrases of the harmony start on the 2 side. 
I have two articles on 
www.timba.com
 which cover this in great detail 
with audio examples to make it clear.
The Four Great Clave Debates
and
Clave Changes in the Music of Charanga Habanera

 wrote:

OK... :)
allora: volevo "allargare" i ns orizzonti... e temo proprio fosse
impossibile pretendere che loro scrivessero in italiano!
scrivono in inglese e, ogni tanto, in spagnolo.
alcuni di loro hanno siti MOLTO importanti, e/o sono musicisti NOTI in
Usa e fuori.
la mia idea e': sarebbe bello "sprovincializzarci", noi italiani.
oltretutto, mi e' capitato alcune volte di parlare con stranieri -o
residenti all'estero- di cose salsere che per noi sono dogmi e/o
crediamo siano di rilevanza mondiale... e invece loro (a NY, per
esempio) NON ne avavano mai sentito parlare...
imo, il CONFRONTO e' il massimo! 
ristabilisce il "senso della misura"...
certo che... implica impegno ANCHE da parte nostra.
da parte mia, io leggo l'inglese, ma non lo parlo mai e soprattutto non
lo scrivo piu' da anni... MA mi sto sforzando!
chiaro che sarebbe bello che qualcuno qua parallelamente (cioe' su un
altro thread, o su questo, ma non in cross-post) facesse una traduzione
in italiano!
ci sono persone in Iabla che parlano inglese molto meglio di me (non ci
vuol molto! ;)
non faccio nomi, perche' magari non hanno tempo per tradurre...
comunque: appena ho due ore, cerco di fare un riassunto!
cosi' magari, chi ha qualcosa da aggiungere e non conosce l'inglese,
puo' farlo in italiano e vediamo di tradurre!
l'UNIONE FA LA FORZA! :)))
-- 
Ciao-kisses, Silvana la Flaca 
PS: qs mio post NON e' in cross-post, evidentemente

 > "Silvana la Flaca" ha scritto
WOW! ha appena postato in qs 3d Kevin, il titolare di 
www.timba.com
!
:)))
segnala due articoli sul suo sito, a proposito di clave.
-- 
Ciao-besito, Silvana la Flaca 
(MI)

 salsa than it does to do with clave.
Sorry: and why do you say it? 
I mean: why do you think that the "existence of 2:3" has more to do with
the differences between these two big salsa streams than with clave in
itself? 
Is there something different in the structure of their salsa songs? 
IF there is... what's exactly? 
But - while listening to salsa, I've got some more doubts: we may get
involved in some confusion between 3:2 and 2:3 because some salsa begins
not "par" but "dis-par"? 
And more: I've heard some song beginning not from one - that is from the
theoretic beginning, but... *for instance* from the last clave beat.
Then the whole thing begins, with the other instruments... 
(Sorry but I don't remember the titles of such salsa songs). 
-- 
bye, Silvana la Flaca 

 > correct.
I thought we put this baby to bed before.
Manfred is exactly correct.  The starting of tunes at different  places of
the Clave pattern gives the tune a feeling which the arranger finds
appropriate for the melody.
to answer the original question, there is 1 rumba Clave.
Vinnie> >


 wrote in message
news:6565444e.02031...@posting.google.com...

rumba clave is also played frequently with variations where there are two
strikes instead of one strike on beats other than beat one
additionally, if I remember correctly, there are recorded examples of son
clave being played in guaguancó (early Cuban recordings).
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com
, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm
 contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. 
http://dmreed.com/santeria_ifa_yoruba.htm
 is a
new page in progress.  
http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm
 contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.

...



He also said that columbia was often called jiribilla, which I had
thought was a separate rhythm.  
 
 - Mike Doran

Silvana la Flaca <silg...@UFFAtin.it> wrote:
un altro GRANDE ha postato qua poco fa: 
**Dennis M. Reed "Califa"**
e segnala il suo RICCO sito (ricco di notizie, foto, esempi musicali,
ecc):
http://dmreed.com
tra l'altro, e' un tipo *molto simpatico*, con una moglie portoricana; e
conosce personalmente tanti artisti ... come testimonia il suo sito.
io lo avevo fatto linkare tempo fa al sito di Ernie, in concomitanza con
un mio pezzo sulla rumba; e lui (Califa) se ne era mostrato MOLTO
contento...
-- 
Ciao, Silvana la Flaca  :))
(MI)

 > 1. yambu uses son clave
Yambu sometimes uses Son Clave, it also uses a pattern that has 5 strokes on
the side that normally has 3.  Like on the Afro Cuban Study guide.



Mike,
Yambú explained to me the 3:2 concept, three notes in the first bar
and two notes on the second bar. I always thought the whole sequence
took place within a single 4/4 bar. I'm still not too sure, but, I now
understand your approach.
I regret the mixup.
César.

...


 Mayor", is entirely in 2:3 rumba clave.
Are you sure ?
for example the track N. 11 "Popurri de antaño" is in 2/3 son clave...
Paolo Pachanga
...el son es lo mas sublime para el alma divertir...
www.descargacubana.com

 WOW! ha appena postato in qs 3d Kevin, il titolare di 
www.timba.com
!
e' UNO dei componenti del team del sito citato.
e' un musicista (e compositore, ecc); e' il violinista della Orquesta
Gitano, californiana.
-- 
Ciao, Silvana la Flaca 
(MI)

 **Dennis M. Reed "Califa"**
un percussionista DA PAURA... ho letto la sua auto-biografia!!!
*conguero* per decenni; bongocero... 
poi anche timbales e 
"drums" (che deve essere quella che noi chiamiamo 'batteria', credo:
dalle foto, cosi' pare)


 wrote in message
news:3c95217f...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...

I'm saying that I think it could be either way 2/3, or 3/2, as son clave can
also be.
The difference between son clave and rumba clave isn't 2/3 and 3/2, but that
the third stroke on the 3 side comes a half beat later in rumba clave.
I think either one (son or rumba clave) can be played 3/2 or 2/3.
As I pointed out, though, some people (especially Cubans) would say that
there is not 3/2 and 2/3 clave. There is only one son clave, but the music
can start on either side of it. Same thing with rumba clave.

 understand your approach.
Well, I think in some places they notate it that way too, the whole clave in
one bar (smaller note values). Doesn't change the sound, just how it is
notated in Western musical notation. Usually here in the States it's notated
in two bars.

 salsa than it does to do with clave.
I think what he was talking about was what I mentioned in another post. It
doesn't really point to any difference in the music and the clave, just a
different way of looking at it. Some people (especially Cubans) say
something like "there is no such thing as 2/3 and 3/2 clave, two separate
claves". What they mean by that is there is really no difference in the
clave pattern, and the other percussion instruments relate to the clave
pattern. What is different in what we call 3/2 and what we call 2/3 is how
the musical phrase, the melody, the chord progression, relate to the clave.
If the downbeat of the music starts on the 2 side, we call it in "2/3
clave", if the downbeat of the music starts on the 3 side, we call it in
"3/2 clave". I think this terminology of 3/2 and 2/3 clave originated here
in the states. But it's really just a matter of terminology, of how you
describe it, not really a musical difference. A Cuban might say that those
(3/2 and 2/3) are not really two separate claves (as son and rumba clave
are), but just describe one which side of the clave the musical phrase
starts on.
It's really nothing very bizarre and preposterous. Just two different ways
of describing the same thing.

 wrote in message
news:akmakm-5896CA....@news.earthlink.net...
Kevin, has a "timba clave" been invented yet?

 wrote in message
news:3c95d7e1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...

a lot of Cuban music is/was written in 2/2 (cut time?) in which case the
clave is one measure
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com
, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm
 contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. 
http://dmreed.com/santeria_ifa_yoruba.htm
 is a
new page in progress.  
http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm
 contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
.

> Kevin, has a "timba clave" been invented yet?
No, but one interesting thing about timba is that the most prevalent 
kick drum pattern outlines the opposite clave
for example in 2:3 rumba clave
xx0x|0xxx|0xx0|xxx0
the kick would play
0xx0|xxxx|x0xx|0x0x
so the "contraclave" type of this that happens in guaguancó is also 
happening here

 Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
Well, then it could take 4 measures, if the note values are the same as when
you write it in 4/4 time.
The way one could write it in one measure (I've heard that some write it
that way, although it's not common here) is to shorten the note
values-diminution.
If you then slowed the tempo by half, it would sound just the same.

 wrote in message
news:u9g5t99...@corp.supernews.com...


 Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
As I said, it doesn't depend on the time signature, but the note values. If
the note values were the same as how it's usually written in 4/4, you'd have
to write it in 8/4 to fit it in one measure, a very unusual written meter.
But you could write it in one measure in 4/4 by halving the note values,
i.e. eighth notes in the way it's usually written would become sixteenths,
etc. I think that's more likely the way you saw it.

 wrote in message
news:u9ipu5a...@corp.supernews.com...


 Aché
The C with a line through it means cut time, 2/2. So, I don't know what she
meant by 2/4, if she wrote 2/2. I'll take a look at the book too, when I
have a chance. (What page?) Music written in 4/4 and 2/2 (cut time) will
look the same as far as note values, both have four quarter notes to the
bar. The difference is that in 4/4 you count the quarter note as the beat,
and in cut time you count the half note as the beat. Obviously, the quarter
note is usually going by faster in cut time than in 4/4, so that it's easier
to tap your foot to the half note rather than to the quarter note. The
difference is in the foot-tapping and conductor beating, not actually much
difference in the notation, other than the meter signature at the beginning.

 That's probably it. Son wasn't traditionally notated.
Para tocar montuno no hace falta papel.
tangent90

 describe the feel and fit of the whole arrangement.
Yet, the imposition of one clave structure upon an entire 
arrangement negates the possibility that different piano 
or bass tumbaos can emphasize different portions of the 
clave.  To assert that all parts must lurch towards the 
same reference point in the clave makes music sound bland 
and homophonic.  In general, Cuban music uses a greater 
variety of phrases beginning at different points within 
the clave structure, making it near impossible to 
categorize any music as being "3/2" or "2/3".
Orlando

 correct.
No correction needed because you're absolutely right.  
Now, if more people would listen to you, we'd have less 
corrective clave education to do around the world.
Orlando

 Could you please give me some information about this? 
Don't worry about "2/3" clave; it is a fiction.  The clave 
you already know is the only clave de rumba.  Son clave is 
often used for yambu, especially around Santiago.  But 
there is only one clave de rumba or son or anything else.
Orlando

 IF there is... what's exactly? 
Yes.  To put it bluntly, Puerto Rican salsa tends to 
impose 2/3 or 3/2 phrases on all instruments, so that the 
entire ensemble emphasizes one side of the clave over the 
other.  The idiocy has progressed to such a stage where 
many uneducated percussionists actually believe there are 
separate patterns for 2/3 and 3/2 tumbao and timbal 
patterns.  In Cuban salsa, the conga can play a melody 
that emphasizes rumba clave, while the piano might play a 
tumbao that leans heaver on the 2 side, while the bass 
plays on the syncopations left over, the kick drum answers 
the bass syncopations and the timbal fills in wherever it 
can find a space.  (grin)  Seriously, that is called 
contratiempo or counter time.  A more useful and easily 
understood term would be counterpoint.  Cuban music uses 
clave counterpoint, where different instruments stress 
different beats in the clave depending on their phrases, 
while Puerto Rican music stresses clave conformity.
I hope that's clearer,
Orlando

 Orlando
Yes it is!
... "idiocy", you say...? uh... :DD)
Seriously, thank you very much for your explanation.
And... may I ask you who you are? I mean: I'm sure that many people
already know about you and your tournées, also here in Europe. 
Maybe not here in Italy? Or not yet... 
Well, I think you are a musician, are you? 
And which instrument do you play?
And know... I would confess you WHY we are so interested in clave and
its mysteries...!
Well, we LOVE dancing salsa, and that's why we are always looking for
the clave, in each salsa song... in order to DANCE! Because *many of us*
think that the best way to dance salsa is beginning  on the first beat
of the "2".
I don't agree with this choice, but many of my friends do.
And... I didn't agree -till a few days ago- because I thought that there
WERE -in each song, in the whole song!- something like the... direction
("verso") of the clave... that in a certain way influences the whole
song, AS IF it were constructed "around" the clave. 
Was I wrong? Please tell me... :)
Indeed, I thought that I would act strange and maybe I would dance
"not-with-the-music" if I behave always in the same way, whatever the
music is...
But now, I don't know... I'm no more sure of it! 
Ehm... no more sure of NOTHING! :DDD)
I mean: I know that we've got a lot of "wrong" ideas, ideas that remain
wrong -but stiff!- till we can compare them with others. 
And IF in other coutries... I prefer! since we risk to repeat always the
same mistakes if we always speak only among the same people.
-- 
Bye, Silvana la Flaca

 wrote in message
news:MPG.1715cff0a...@news.earthlink.net...

Orlando, great observation (as usual).
about clave fitting with the other percussion instruments, I still find it
interesting that 2 side of clave used to fit the guaguancó segundo open
tones (am I referring to the correct drum?) but now days the drum part is
opposite the clave. examples of both styles can still be found on modern
recordings of guaguancó but the "contra-clave" seems to be more prevalent.


 wrote in message
news:MPG.1715cff0a...@news.earthlink.net...

Orlando, I posted a response to this post already but I did not mention that
many arrangers annotate the "rare" percussion chart with 3/2 or 2/3 to
indicate which side of clave a tune begin on or sometime they will just tell
the percussionists. this might help explain why so many folks think there is
a 3/2 clave and also a 2/3 clave.
in my experience, we frequently started a new tune in 3/2 but changed within
a few measures to 2/3 if it was appropriate...in general we always played to
the music without really thinking about clave...we just played what fit the
music and established the appropriate "lock". even when "big name" musicians
or singers sat in with us or when we backed up their performances, it was
just not an issue..


 of the "2".
Sorry, I have to specify - or to correct myself.
Above I should have written *on the first beat of the 2-side* of clave.


 just not an issue..
That's how it should be.  The clave churns along and we 
drop in with the music wherever the accentuation seems 
appropriate.  It's not about 3/2 or 2/3; it's about 
realizing that different musical phrases work with the 
clave in different ways, accenting different beats or 
stressing either of the two halves.
Orlando

Such has been my experience as well.  The more I speak 
with the same people, the less of a chance I have to grow 
intellectually and perhaps question their ideas.  After 
all, there is of course a place for personal creativity 
and bucking tradition in this music.  You take chances 
sometimes.  You play something against the clave and it 
works out right, or you dance against the music and people 
think it looks really cool.  do you get what I mean?  But 
before you can go beyond the rules, you have to know the 
rules.  Clave has a few rules, but they are often broken, 
sometimes consciously and other times by ignorance.
Ciao,
Orlando 

 Orlando 


 Is it the percussion or the piano, the bass or the horns? 
Ehm... many of us think that is the "melody" the part that "decides"...
I mean -for instance- if I read music... IF the first note (the one) of
the melody begins "togheter" (in the same point) with the first downbeat
of clave... that's the one and that's the 3/2 clave... is it a mistake?


 of clave... that's the one and that's the 3/2 clave... is it a mistake?
It is not a mistake at all; it is absolutely correct.  
But, remember that the melody can be placed in the clave 
such that its downbeat doesn't coincide with the 3 side, 
coinciding instead with the 2 side, which is most common 
today.  So, what is called 2/3 is actually an example of 
the music moving in contrary motion to the clave.
Orlando 

 music (as our teachers say to us), or... maybe, we over-estimate it?
Well, basically, the main rule of clave is to follow its 
accentuation when de terming where to place the music.  If 
the music is to go with the clave, it will accent the 
clave's main beats, such as the downbeat, the bombo and 
the first stroke of the 2 side.  If the music goes against 
the clave, it will accentuate precisely the beats that are 
either not in the clave pattern itself or on the opposite 
side.  Thus, our music is full of songs whose downbeats 
fall on the 2 side where the pattern doesn't actually 
sound the downbeat.  The other main rule is that the 
clave's structure is binary, so phrases should be kept 
even so as not to cross the clave.  Beyond these, all 
other rules are intellectual trivialities.  There are ways 
of differentiating both sides of the clave in quinto or 
bongo playing, in piano and bass tumbaos, horn lines, 
coros and even simple conga patterns.  All rely on the 
manipulation of accentuation either with or against the 
clave.  Does this help at all?  I know this post was a bit 
abstract, so if you have specific questions, please feel 
free to ask and I'll see how I can best respond.
Orlando

free to ask and I'll see how I can best respond.
Orlando, 
is there a way you can suggest recordings or portions of which
illustrate those points you're making. I think musical examples are a
way, for those of us unable to read music, that would help to clarify
things.
Thanks 
César.