Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica
Titolo: Mappa distanze linguistiche

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/a-map-of-lexical-distances-between-europes-languages
 
 
https://alternativetransport.wordpress.com/2015/05/05/34/
 
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

 
 
Ho provato anch`io a calcolare (a spanne) la distanza dal francese all`inglese estraendo le parole di origine neolatina nel primo articolo citato: su circa 380 parole singole, sono 188 (49%).

Addi' 06 apr 2017, 
paup...@gmail.com
 scrive:

Interessante, ma dovresti toglierci preposizioni e articoli, o no?
 
-- 
bye, Yoda
 


Prendendo in considerazione il primo paragrafo di questa voce di Wikipedia (che mi sono fatto segnalare a caso):
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor
 
 
Numero totale parole (contando anche le ripetizioni): 113
Di origine francese (o neolatina o classica): 52
Percentuale: 46% 
 
Eliminando le ripetizioni e le particelle e le preposizioni gli articoli:
 
Numero termini simil-francesi : 45
 
altered alterer
amorphous amorphe
basis base
characteristics caractéristique
charge charge
conducting conduction
controlled controlee
creation creation
crystal cristal
crystalline cristalline
decreases décroître
deliberate deliberates
differently different
diodes diodes*
distinct distinct
electrical électrique
electron electron
electronic electronique
extrinsic extrinsèque
finally final
impurities impuretés
include incluse
increases incrément
insulators insulaires
introduction introduction
ions ions
junctions jonctions
materials matériels
metal metal
modern moderne
opposite opposite
permits permit
properties propriété
regions regions
resistance resistance
semiconductor semi-conducteur
solids solides
structure structure
temperature temperature
transistors transistors*
typical typique
useful use
 
(*anche se sono neologismi di recente conio, si puo` dire che, per la loro forma, rendono l`inglese simile al francese e non viceversa)
 
Alla fine direi che di inglese rimangono solo: il verbo essere e avere, "dope", "hole", "carrier", "behavior", "low", "high", "way", "between", "much".
 
 
Quindi una forchetta 45%-85%; almeno negli articoli scientifici o comunque colti.
 
Notiamo pure i suffissi, quasi identici:  ine -> ine; ic -> ique, ate -> ate; ance -> ance; on -> on; or->eur; ure -> ure.

 ure.
 
 
 
Prova ad analizzare questo brano (o parte di esso):
 
“To carry the banner” means to walk the streets all night; and
I, with the figurative emblem hoisted, went out to see what I
could see.  Men and women walk the streets at night all over
this great city, but I selected the West End, making Leicester
Square my base, and scouting about from the Thames Embankment
to Hyde Park.
The rain was falling heavily when the theatres let out, and the
brilliant throng which poured from the places of amusement was
hard put to find cabs.  The streets were so many wild rivers
of cabs, most of which were engaged, however; and here I saw
the desperate attempts of ragged men and boys to get a shelter
from the night by procuring cabs for the cabless ladies and
gentlemen.  I use the word “desperate” advisedly, for these
wretched, homeless ones were gambling a soaking against a bed;
and most of them, I took notice, got the soaking and missed
the bed.  Now, to go through a stormy night with wet clothes,
and, in addition, to be ill nourished and not to have tasted
meat for a week or a month, is about as severe a hardship as a
man can undergo.  Well fed and well clad, I have travelled all
day with the spirit thermometer down to seventy-four degrees
below zero—one hundred and six degrees of frost {1}; and
though I suffered, it was a mere nothing compared with
carrying the banner for a night, ill fed, ill clad, and
soaking wet.
The streets grew very quiet and lonely after the theatre crowd
had gone home.  Only were to be seen the ubiquitous policemen,
flashing their dark lanterns into doorways and alleys, and men
and women and boys taking shelter in the lee of buildings from
the wind and rain.  Piccadilly, however, was not quite so
deserted.  Its pavements were brightened by well-dressed women
without escort, and there was more life and action there than
elsewhere, due to the process of finding escort.  But by three
o’clock the last of them had vanished, and it was then indeed
lonely.
At half-past one the steady downpour ceased, and only showers
fell thereafter.  The homeless folk came away from the
protection of the buildings, and slouched up and down and
everywhere, in order to rush up the circulation and keep warm.
One old woman, between fifty and sixty, a sheer wreck, I had
noticed earlier in the night standing in Piccadilly, not far
from Leicester Square.  She seemed to have neither the sense
nor the strength to get out of the rain or keep walking, but
stood stupidly, whenever she got the chance, meditating on
past days, I imagine, when life was young and blood was warm. 
But she did not get the chance often.  She was moved on by
every policeman, and it required an average of six moves to
send her doddering off one man’s beat and on to another’s.  By
three o’clock, she had progressed as far as St. James Street,
and as the clocks were striking four I saw her sleeping
soundly against the iron railings of Green Park.  A brisk
shower was falling at the time, and she must have been
drenched to the skin.
Now, said I, at one o’clock, to myself; consider that you are a
poor young man, penniless, in London Town, and that to-morrow
you must look for work.  It is necessary, therefore, that you
get some sleep in order that you may have strength to look for
work and to do work in case you find it.
So I sat down on the stone steps of a building.  Five minutes
later a policeman was looking at me.  My eyes were wide open,
so he only grunted and passed on.  Ten minutes later my head
was on my knees, I was dozing, and the same policeman was
saying gruffly, “’Ere, you, get outa that!”
I got.  And, like the old woman, I continued to get; for every
time I dozed, a policeman was there to rout me along again. 
Not long after, when I had given this up, I was walking with a
young Londoner (who had been out to the colonies and wished he
were out to them again), when I noticed an open passage
leading under a building and disappearing in darkness.  A low
iron gate barred the entrance.
“Come on,” I said.  “Let’s climb over and get a good sleep.”
“Wot?” he answered, recoiling from me.  “An’ get run in fer
three months!  Blimey if I do!”
Later on I was passing Hyde Park with a young boy of fourteen
or fifteen, a most wretched-looking youth, gaunt and
hollow-eyed and sick.
“Let’s go over the fence,” I proposed, “and crawl into the
shrubbery for a sleep.  The bobbies couldn’t find us there.”
“No fear,” he answered.  “There’s the park guardians, and
they’d run you in for six months.”
Times have changed, alas!  When I was a youngster I used to
read of homeless boys sleeping in doorways.  Already the thing
has become a tradition.  As a stock situation it will
doubtless linger in literature for a century to come, but as a
cold fact it has ceased to be.  Here are the doorways, and
here are the boys, but happy conjunctions are no longer
effected.  The doorways remain empty, and the boys keep awake
and carry the banner.
“I was down under the arches,” grumbled another young fellow. 
By “arches” he meant the shore arches where begin the bridges
that span the Thames.  “I was down under the arches wen it was
ryning its ’ardest, an’ a bobby comes in an’ chyses me out. 
But I come back, an’ ’e come too.  ‘’Ere,’ sez ’e, ‘wot you
doin’ ’ere?’  An’ out I goes, but I sez, ‘Think I want ter
pinch [steal] the bleedin’ bridge?’”
Among those who carry the banner, Green Park has the reputation
of opening its gates earlier than the other parks, and at
quarter-past four in the morning, I, and many more, entered
Green Park.  It was raining again, but they were worn out with
the night’s walking, and they were down on the benches and
asleep at once.  Many of the men stretched out full length on
the dripping wet grass, and, with the rain falling steadily
upon them, were sleeping the sleep of exhaustion.
And now I wish to criticise the powers that be.  They are the
powers, therefore they may decree whatever they please; so I
make bold only to criticise the ridiculousness of their
decrees.  All night long they make the homeless ones walk up
and down.  They drive them out of doors and passages, and lock
them out of the parks.  The evident intention of all this is
to deprive them of sleep.  Well and good, the powers have the
power to deprive them of sleep, or of anything else for that
matter; but why under the sun do they open the gates of the
parks at five o’clock in the morning and let the homeless ones
go inside and sleep?  If it is their intention to deprive them
of sleep, why do they let them sleep after five in the
morning?  And if it is not their intention to deprive them of
sleep, why don’t they let them sleep earlier in the night?
In this connection, I will say that I came by Green Park that
same day, at one in the afternoon, and that I counted scores
of the ragged wretches asleep in the grass.  It was Sunday
afternoon, the sun was fitfully appearing, and the
well-dressed West Enders, with their wives and progeny, were
out by thousands, taking the air.  It was not a pleasant sight
for them, those horrible, unkempt, sleeping vagabonds; while
the vagabonds themselves, I know, would rather have done their
sleeping the night before.
And so, dear soft people, should you ever visit London Town,
and see these men asleep on the benches and in the grass,
please do not think they are lazy creatures, preferring sleep
to work.  Know that the powers that be have kept them walking
all the night long, and that in the day they have nowhere else
to sleep.
 
 
Oppure questo di un'epoca più antica:
 
DEAR MOLLY, 
 We are all upon the ving—Hey for London, girl!—Fecks! we have
been long enough here; for we’re all turned tipsy turvy
Mistress has excarded Sir Ulic for kicking of Chowder; and I
have sent O Frizzle away, with a flea in his ear—I’ve shewn
him how little I minded his tinsy and his long tail—A fellor,
who would think for to go, for to offer, to take up with a
dirty trollop under my nose—I ketched him in the very feet,
coming out of the housemaids garret.—But I have gi’en the
dirty slut a siserary. O Molly! the sarvants at Bath are
devils in garnet. They lite the candle at both ends—Here’s
nothing but ginketting, and wasting, and thieving and
tricking, and trigging; and then they are never content—They
won’t suffer the ‘squire and mistress to stay any longer;
because they have been already above three weeks in the house;
and they look for a couple of ginneys a-piece at our going
away; and this is a parquisite they expect every month in the
season; being as how no family has a right to stay longer than
four weeks in the same lodgings; and so the cuck swears she
will pin the dish-clout to mistress’s tail; and the house-maid
vows, she’ll put cowitch in master’s bed, if so be he don’t
discamp without furder ado—I don’t blame them for making the
most of their market, in the way of vails and parquisites; and
I defy the devil to say I am a tail-carrier, or ever brought a
poor sarvant into trouble—But then they oft to have some
conscience, in vronging those that be sarvants like themselve
—For you must no, Molly, I missed three-quarters of blond
lace, and a remnant of muslin, and my silver thimble; which
was the gift of true love; they were all in my workbasket,
that I left upon the table in the sarvants-hall, when
mistresses bell rung; but if they had been under lock and
kay, ‘twould have been all the same; for there are double keys
to all the locks in Bath; and they say as how the very teeth
an’t safe in your head, if you sleep with your mouth open—And
so says I to myself, them things could not go without hands;
and so I’ll watch their waters: and so I did with a vitness;
for then it was I found Bett consarned with O Frizzle. And as
the cuck had thrown her slush at me, because I had taken part
with Chowder, when he fit, with the turnspit, I resolved to
make a clear kitchen, and throw some of her fat into the fire.
I ketched the chare-woman going out with her load in the
morning, before she thought I was up, and brought her to
mistress with her whole cargo—Marry, what do’st think she had
got in the name of God? Her buckets were foaming full of our
best bear, and her lap was stuffed with a cold tongue, part of
a buttock of beef, half a turkey, and a swinging lump of
butter, and the matter of ten mould kandles, that had scarce
ever been lit. The cuck brazened it out, and said it was her
rite to rummage the pantry; and she was ready for to go before
the mare: that he had been her potticary many years, and would
never think of hurting a poor sarvant, for giving away the
scraps of the kitchen. I went another way to work with madam
Betty, because she had been saucy, and called me skandelus
names; and said O Frizzle couldn’t abide me, and twenty other
odorous falsehoods. I got a varrant from the mare, and her box
being sarched by the constable, my things came out sure enuff;
besides a full pound of vax candles, and a nite-cap of
mistress, that I could sware to on my cruperal oaf—O! then
madam Mopstick came upon her merry bones; and as the squire
wouldn’t hare of a pursecution, she scaped a skewering: but
the longest day she has to live, she’ll remember your 
 Humble sarvant, W. JENKINS BATH, May 15. 
 If the hind should come again, before we be gone, pray send me
the shift and apron, with the vite gallow manky shoes; which
you’ll find in my pillowber—Sarvice to Saul—
 
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

 “To carry the banner” means to walk the streets all night; and
 
Innanzitutto partiamo dal titolo (ho notato che i titoli sono in percentuale molto "francesizzati"):
 
"The People of the Abyss" (sul totale: 40%; togliendo le particelle: 100%)
 
Il testo va da un 10% minimo (non elimino le parole ripetute e le particelle) ad un 30% con un altro criterio non molto scientifico (senza ripetizioni e togliendo arbitrariamente alcune parole).
 
Elenco:
 
action action
addition addition
advisedly aviser
air air
alas! helas!
amusement amusement
appearing apparient
arches arches
attempts atempter
average avarie
banner banniere
base base
boys embuie
brilliant brillant
cab cabriolet
case case
ceased cesser
century lat.
chance chance
changed changer
circulation circulation
city cite
colonies colonies
compared comparer
conjunctions conjonctions
connection connection
consider considerer
continued continuee
counted compter
creatures creatures
criticise critiquer
decree décret
degrees degrees
deprive priver
deserted desert
desperate désespéré
disappearing apparition
doubtless doute
dressed dresser
effected effectuee
emblem embleme
engaged engager
entered entrer
entrance entree
escort escorter
evident evident
exhaustion exhaurire lat.
fact lat.
fence fence
figurative figurative
gentle gentil
guardians gardein
horrible horrible
imagine imagine
intention intention
lanterns lanternes
literature litterature
matter matière
meditating mediter
minutes minutes
necessary necessaire
notice noter
nourished nourrisse
order ordre
park parc
passage passage
passed passer
past passer
pavements pavements
people peuple
pinch pincer
places places
pleasant plaisant
please plaisir
police police
poor povre
poured purer
preferring preferer
process proces
procuring procurer
progeny progeniture
progressed progresser
proposed proposer
protection protection
quarter quart
quiet quiet
remain remanoir
reputation reputation
required requiere
ridiculousness ridicule
rivers riviere
rout route
selected lat.
sense sense
severe severe
situation situation
spirit spirite
square square
street lat.
stupidly stupide
suffered souffrir
tasted taster
theatres theatres
thermometer thermometre
tradition tradition
travelled travaille
ubiquitous ubiquites
used use
vagabonds vagabonds
vanished esvanir
very vrai
visit visite
zero it.
 
Vorrei fare una considerazione gaddian-pasoliniana sulle inserzioni di linguaggio popolare nel testo analizzato:
 
“Wot?” he answered, recoiling from me.  “An’ get run in fer
three months!  Blimey if I do!”
 
Pasolini:
 
"Er Caciotta qqua te ’o può ddí, ve’ Caciò? Io sso uno che nis-
suno  puo  ddí  niente  de  me,  e  si  fo  una  promessa,  a
morè, stacce, che tutto ha d’annà come che dico io... Er Ca-
ciotta qqua te ’o può ddí, ve’ Caciò? Io sso uno che nis-
suno  puo  ddí  niente  de  me,  e  si  fo  una  promessa,  a
morè, stacce, che tutto ha d’annà come che dico io...
Pecché? ’N semo tutti amichi, qqua? Io te fo un favore,
per modo de ddí, e n’antra vorta tu ’o ffai a me, che, ’un
se dovemo da dà na mano uno co l’artro?
Pecché? ’N semo tutti amichi, qqua? Io te fo un favore,
per modo de ddí, e n’antra vorta tu ’o ffai a me, che, ’un
se dovemo da dà na mano uno co l’artro?"
 
Vedo una differenza che mi conferma la mia idea dell`inglese come idioma classista e artificiale: l`inglese popolare non mi pare altro che la lingua inglese, pronunciata malamente e sfrondata dai caratteri francesizzanti; il romanesco invece mantiene una freschezza e una dignita` letteraria; come anche Gadda ha dimostrato:
 
"Sicconno si ciaveva sigherette cor bocchino d’oro, o si nun ce l’aveva pe gnente, o si ce l’aveva appena crompe, ma nazzionale che puzzeno. Giocava a fa er cocco. Artre vorte ghiribizzoso come una banderola. Sicché allora le trascurava, ma già! le sore frasche. Era allora propio che loro s’ammattiveno. Si concedeva dopo lungo reluttare o dopo interminato anelare e basire della vittima, strascicandone l’estuoso abbandono o sfibrandone la indocilità renitente mediante una erogazione di pseudo-sintomi (in realtà suggerimenti) alternati a contrasto, a sì e no. M’ama e nun m’ama. Te vojo nun te vojo. E comunque alle predestinate e rare, con arcana delibera elette, si concedeva: come la Salute Eterna in Giansenio."
 

 square square
 
*escarrer, esquarrer, esquire

 particelle: 100%)
 
 
In tedesco è
Die Menschen des Abgrunds
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

 
Altri titoli notevoli:
 
"Les Liaisons dangereuses": Dangerous Liaisons (Gefährliche Liebschaften)
"Die Wahlverwandtschaften": Elective Affinities(Les Affinités électives)
"Les Miserables": The Miserables (Die Elenden)
"Al-kitab al-mukhtaṣar fī hisab al-jabr wa’l-muqabala": The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing (Das kurzgefasste Buch über die Rechenverfahren durch Ergänzen und Ausgleichen)
"Discorsi e dimostrazioni matematiche intorno a due nuove scienze attenenti alla mecanica e i movimenti locali": Discourses and Mathematical Demonstrations Relating to Two New Sciences Pertaining to Mechanics and Local Motion (Unterredungen und mathematische Demonstrationen über zwei neue Wissenszweige, die Mechanik und die Fallgesetze betreffend)
"The Declaration of Independence": "Déclaration d'indépendance (Unabhängigkeitserklärung der V.S.)
 

 

Ah però anche:
"I promessi sposi": The Betrothed" :-)
(tedesco non so, forse "Die Verlobene"?)
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

 (tedesco non so, forse "Die Verlobene"?)
 
«Die Brautleute», prima «Die Verlobten», vedi
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Promessi_Sposi
 
 
Si legge all'Anmerkung (nota) 1 che «Die Brautleute» corrisponde 
meglio al titolo originale alquanto aulico e antiquato, scelto dal 
Manzoni, mentre «Die Verlobten» tradurrebbe semplicemente il moderno 
«I fidanzati».
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 
 
"Pride and Prejudice" (50%): "Orgueil et Préjugés"
"Lo spaccio de la Bestia trionfante": "The Expulsion of the Triumphant Beast" (100%)
"Prestuplénie i nakazànie": "Crime_and_Punishment" (100%); "Crime et Châtiment" 
"Questa sera si recita a soggetto": "Tonight We Improvise" (50%); "Heute Abend wird aus dem Stegreif gespielt"
"Le mie prigioni": "My Prisons" (100%); "Mes prisons"; "Meine Gefängnisse"
"À la recherche du temps perdu": "Remembrance of Things Past" (66%); "Auf der Suche nach der verlorenen Zeit"
"Vanity Fair: A novel without a Hero" (100%); "La Foire aux vanités"; "Jahrmarkt der Eitelkeit"
 
Si puotrebbe tentare anche con i film:
 
"2001: A Space Odissey" (100%); "2001, l'Odyssée de l'espace"; "2001: Odyssee im Weltraum"
 
o con le cariche:
 
"President of United States Of America" (100%); "Président des États-Unis d'Amérique"; "Präsident der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika"
"Prime Minister" (100%); "Premier ministre"

 o con le cariche...
 
 
O con la saggistica:
 
"Der Witz und seine Beziehung zum Unbewußten": "Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious" (100%)
"Das Unbehagen in der Kultur": "Civilization and Its Discontents" (100%), "Malaise dans la civilisation"
"Gödelscher Unvollständigkeitssatz": "Gödel's incompleteness theorems" (100%)
"Grundlage der gesammten Wissenschaftslehre": "Foundations of the Entire Science of Knowledge" (75%)
"Kritik der reinen Vernunft": "Critique of Pure Reason" (100%); "Critique de la raison pure"

 "Pride and Prejudice" (50%): "Orgueil et Préjugés"
 
Anche in italiano abbiamo una distinzione a seconda del traduttore piu'
o meno in gamba e preciso, o del periodo:
 
Les Liaisons dangereuses:
1. Attuale: Legami pericolosi
2. Anteguerra: Amicizie pericolose
 
Pride and Prejudice:
1. Attuale: Orgoglio e pregiudizio
2. Anteguerra: Orgoglio e prevenzione
 
A' rebours:
1. 1998: Controcorrente
2. 1963: A rovescio
 
E poi bisogna vedere dentro la traduzione: ad esempio La Certosa di
Parma cambia totalmente: con traduzione antica ci si immerge nell'esatto
clima napoleonico, nella modrerna e' un disastro.
 
-- 
bye, Yoda
 

 un disastro.
 
 
Un titolo che ho sentito che di recente è cambiato:
vecchio: La montagna incantata
nuovo: La montagna magica
originale: Der Zauberberg
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

Addi' 12 apr 2017, ADPUF scrive:

Ce l'ho del 1930 di Bice Giachetti-Sorteni nei Corvi.. temo che una
traduzione attuale risulterebbe per me illeggibile -- Ciao
 
-- 
bye, Yoda
 

:
 
     *La montagna incantata* (titolo originale /Der Zauberberg/),
     o più correttamente *La montagna magica*, è un romanzo dello
     scrittore tedesco Thomas Mann pubblicato nel 1924.
 
Il «più correttamente» mi rammenta l'orwelliano «più uguali».
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 traduzione corretta figura solo in seconda posizione.
 
"Montagna incantata" in italiano suona meglio (forse anche perche` non e` presente l`allitterazione mo-ma).
 
Perche` il titolo non sarebbe corretto?
 
montagna incantata -> montagna che ha subito una pratica magica
montagna magica -> montagna che ha poteri magici
 
 
A proposito, come si traduce questo libro in tedesco?
 
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incantesimo_e_magia
 

 incantata» si sia affermato e mantenuto per tanti anni cosicché 
 
Anche questo titolo e` "sbagliato" (anche se in italiano suona meglio):
 
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B8_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5
 
 
Perche` dovrebbe esser modellato su quest`altro:
 
https://booktracker.org/pictures/7f1742a26d393a8705162dbb70329b81.jpg
 
Чезаре Беккариа - О преступлениях и наказаниях.
 
 
Cesare Beccaria in russo -> "O prestuplenijach i nakazanijach"
Dostojevskij -> "Prestuplénie i nakazànie"
 
Beccaria -> "Dei delitti e delle pene"
D. in italiano -> "Delitto e castigo" ("Delitto e pena" suona male)
 
p.s.
Hanno cambiato il nome a Dostojevskij?
 
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%ABdor_Dostoevskij
 

Addi' 12 apr 2017, Wolfgang scrive:

Secondo me il tizio di wiki e' solo un po' troppo americanizzato,
anche perche' spesso per trascrivere dal tedesco la strada passa
per l'inglese, molto meno ricco dell'italiano.
 
Immaginiamo di cambiare tutte le piu' belle favole.. guarda:
Il castello incantato -> Il castello magico
sarebbe addirittura spoetizzante, il "magico" toglie tutta la magia!
 
-- 
bye, Yoda
 

 
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incantesimo_e_magia
 
 
«Zauber und Magie», o meglio, ma alquanto prolisso, «Verzauberung 
und Magie». Non mi risulta che ne esista una traduzione tedesca, 
sebbene figuri «Zauber und Magie, Mailand, 1934» sul sito 
http://destobesser.com/article/arturo-castiglioni
 
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%ABdor_Dostoevskij
 
 
Adoperano la traslitterazione scientifica, che rappresenta la <e> 
russa con <e> anziché <je>.
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 all'abitudine.
 
In italiano suona male appunto perche` sembrerebbe un trattato di diritto, non un romanzo.
 
Forse "Del delitto e della pena" sarebbe stato un buon compromesso per unire filologia e poesia.
 
Un altro celebre e bel titolo italiano sbagliato e` "Arancia Meccanica", invece del piu` corretto "Arancia ad orologeria".

 Un altro celebre e bel titolo italiano sbagliato e` "Arancia Meccanica", invece del piu` corretto "Arancia ad orologeria".
 
Titoli classici "sbagliati":
 
"Beresehit" tradotto come "Genesi", piu` corretto: "dapprincipio" (in tedesco come si chiama il primo libro della Bibbia? non dirmi semplicemente "primo libro")
 
"Fisica" di Aristotele suona adesso troppo specifico; (Naturlehre?)
 
"Repubblica" di Platone per il greco "Politeia"; ("Der Staat"?)

 Meccanica", invece del piu` corretto "Arancia ad orologeria".
 
Secondo me "ad orologeria" non c'entra nulla! e' difficile trovare come
rendere meglio ("piu' correttamente"? non ho la necesssaria competenza
in inglese per dirlo) il senso.
Arancia meccanica vuol dire che e' umano solo nell'apparenza, ma nella
sostanza e' privo di volonta' e libero arbitrio: frutto naturale fuori,
manufatto artificiale dentro.
 
-- 
bye, Yoda
 

 "Repubblica" di Platone per il greco "Politeia"; ("Der Staat"?)
 
«Der Staat» sarebbe bello, ma lo chiamiamo «Politeia» alla greca.
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%ABdor_Dostoevskij
 
 
come risulta dal cirillico ivi riportato, hanno traslitterato. La "e" 
cirillica si *legge* solitamente "je".

 completamente desueta).
 
Suona come "Naturologia" o "Dottrina della Natura"?
 
Conosco invece un titolo, o meglio sottotitolo, tedesco "sbagliato": "Kampf ums Dasein" per "struggle for existence"; Darwin desiderava esprimere un concetto piu ambiguo e sfumato: quello della "competizione" o "concorrenza",  piuttosto che della "lotta":
 
https://books.google.it/books?id=byJk8Ea0WSQC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&source=bl&ots=ssFh3lufyK&sig=3oV7G5_RilJzm61ob1Z8U3I-DrY&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1wZK5uurLAhUGvhQKHWp8BuoQ6AEIIzAA#v=snippet&q=concurrency&f=false
 
 
 
 


Una volta si traslitterava "je":
 
https://books.google.it/books?id=QJE0AQAAIAAJ&q=dostojevskij&dq=dostojevskij&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhgN6lkKHTAhUkG5oKHcFDAHQQ6AEIJjAA
 
 
O "ie":
 
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE4N1gxNjAw/z/E68AAOxydkZRkQJT/$(KGrHqQOKosFF0Bg+kSmBRkQJSj+rg~~60_35.JPG
 
 
Ho controllato e i miei libri hanno tutti la nuova forma "Dostoesvkij" (non ci avevo mai fatto caso e credo di aver sempre scritto con la "je")

 Una volta si traslitterava "je":
 
Non la chiamerei traslitterazione quanto trascrizione fonetica (a 
beneficio dei lettori di un'altra lingua ... operazione perfettamente 
legittima ... ma se lo scopo e' facilitare la lettura deve non essere 
uniforme 
p.es
. confonderebbe le idee trascrivere je dopo una n o una l 
(l'effetto e' "gne" o "glie"), dopo una g o k, o dopo una sc ... dato 
che la "e" e la "i" tra le vocali deboli non sono affette dalla 
filastrocca
 
ghe ka kha zhe ce scià s-cià, ne' la y la ju la ja

 "competizione" o "concorrenza", piuttosto che della "lotta":
 
Già, ma ciò non toglie che «struggle» significhi «Kampf», cioè 
«lotta». Se Darwin voleva esprimere i concetti da te accennati, 
perché non si è servito di un vocabolo come «competition» o 
«contest»? Credo che questi vocaboli sappiano troppo di sport per 
esprimere la gravità e serietà della situazione in cui si trova un 
essere vivente che lotta per la sua esistenza.
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

 essere vivente che lotta per la sua esistenza.
 
La differenza che in italiano esiste tra la parola "gara" (di origine araba) e 
"lotta".
 
Ritorno in tema con la statistica sul titolo completo di sottotitolo:
 
"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" (80%)
 
"De l'origine des espèces au moyen de la sélection naturelle, ou la préservation des races favorisées dans la lutte pour la vie"
 
"Die Entstehung der Arten durch natürliche Zuchtwahl oder Die Erhaltung der bevorzugten Rassen im Kampfe ums Dasein"

 perche` non e` presente l`allitterazione mo-ma).
 
 
In tedesco c'è l'allitterazione "-berberg"...
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

Yoda 11:03, giovedì 13 aprile 2017:

Burgess sapeva l'italiano, mi pare, chi sa se ha detto qualcosa
riguardo al titolo tradotto... 
 
"A orologeria" si usava solo con "bomba" e ha una implicazione
di oggetto pericoloso destinato a produrre danni.
 
Da qualche decennio si usa anche con le inchieste sui politici
(forse) corrotti...
 
 
[Giro anche su ICLIt]
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

 

Der Zauberflöte
Il flauto magico
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

paup...@gmail.com
 11:38, giovedì 13 aprile 2017:

Una volta probabilmente scrivevano 
Dostoievschi
 
Oppure usavano traslitterazioni "alla francese".
 
Puskine?
Pouchquine? :-)
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

 male)
 
 
Come suona "Delitto e punizione"?
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

Addi' 18 apr 2017, ADPUF scrive:

Si', adesso e' il flauto incantato che risulterebbe degradato.
 
 
-- 
bye, Yoda
 

 [Giro anche su ICLIt]
 
Be' lo lascio in crosspost, ormai lo fanno tutti anche Leo - ciao
 
Ps. Vedi? adesso ho dovuto dare "forza", perche' Slrn ha bloccato
l'invio e m'ha detto di metterci il f/u.
 
-- 
bye, Yoda
 

 Pouchquine? :-)
 
 
-- 
bye, Yoda
 

 Il flauto magico
 
Ciao,
Wolfgang

> Pouchquine? :-)
 
 
Questa (-ine) la usavano nei passaporti (lingua diplomatica
fino all'arrivo dei caubòis in Europa)
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°

 *Die* Zauberflöte
 
 
Sch****! 
 
Sempre meglio controllare... 
 
La flauta, questa poi... :-)
 
Inoltre: la violina, la tambura, la trombona...
 
Il violoncello invece è neutro... boh.
 
 
Geschlechta sine lege vagantur...
 
 
-- 
AIOE °¿°