Newsgroup: it.comp.hardware
Titolo: Il precario equilibrio delle memorie ram

A maggio monto un kit ddr4 corsair su mobo z170 (che è possibile settare 
a 3200 mhz con profilo xmp).
Fino a 2 giorni fa non sono mai riuscito ad averle stabili a 3200 mhz 
con il profilo attivato: provato ogni opzione di voltaggio nel bios, 
spostato le ram dagli slot a1,b1 a quelli a2, b2. Appena Asus rilasciava 
un aggiornamento del bios io subito ad installarlo nella speranza che 
fosse quello giusto, nulla da fare: anche quando riuscivo a raggiungere 
3200 e ad arrivare al desktop e facendo test senza errori, nella 
migliore delle ipotesi al successivo boot del pc mi restava lo schermo nero.
 
Poi 2 giorni fa ho provato a fare una cosa che non avevo mai fatto: ho 
smontato le ram e le ho invertite di posizione: il modulo in a2 inserito 
in b2 e viceversa.
 
Riprovo caricando il profilo il profilo xmp e mi carica il sistema 
operativo senza problemi e senza ulteriori tweak, non l'aveva mia fatto! 
Vado di memtest e nessun errore!!! Sembra fatta, uso il pc tutto il 
giorno senza problemi.Il giorno dopo lo riaccendo: schermo nero al boot.
Ma non mi perdo d'animo perché comunque i miglioramenti rispetto a prima 
sono evidenti (prima di invertire le ram, per ottenere la stessa 
"precaria stabilità" dovevo cambiare mille parametri via bios), faccio 
solo un tweak: alzo di 0.5 i volt della ram portandoli a 1.355 e succede 
il miracolo, il sistema diventa stabile come una roccia!!!  Niente più 
schermate nere al boot(ho provato una decina di volte a freddo, l'ultima 
stamattina prima di iniziare a scrivere questo post). Memtest tutto a 
posto, giochi che non vanno in crash e 3d Mark che completa il suo test 
senza problemi!!!
Sembra che la ram finalmente vada veloce per il prezzo pagato, ma con un 
ritardo di ben 4 mesi.
 
Perché le ram sono sempre cosi' rognose?
Anche nei pc passati i problemi maggiori sempre stati delle ram: ma vi 
pare possibile che basta invertire la posizione a due moduli per 
renderle stabili?
 
Io rimango basito!!!

 solo un tweak: alzo di 0.5
 
0.05
 


 
No.
La stabilità è stata ottenuta con l'incremento di voltaggio.
 
 

Il 11/09/16 17:24, SBIANCO ha scritto:

Tensione, con l'incremento della tensione...
 
-- 
Ciao
Michele

Dopo dura riflessione, SBIANCO ha scritto :

Molto probabile...spesso infatti per avere stabilita' con
alcune combinazioni MB/RAM occorre effettuare un piccolo
overvolt.


se hai letto attentamente il mio post ti accorgerai che l'aumento del 
voltaggio l'ho provato già 4 mesi fa, fino a 1.40 e non avevo un sistema 
stabile.
 
Dopo aver invertito i moduli è andato con 1.355 (in realtà memtest già 
non mi dava errori senza cambiare nulla).
 
Il motivo del post è proprio la stranezza della cosa!
 
 


no, ragazzi. E' diventato stabile dopo l'inversione dei moduli!
Sono 4 mesi che provo a far funzionare sto xmp e mai sono riuscito ad 
avere un sistema stabile come adesso!!!

Dopo dura riflessione, Max ha scritto :

I moduli hanno tutti la stessa densita'?

 non mi dava errori senza cambiare nulla).
 
Dopo aver invertito i moduli non ti andava perfettamente, parole tue.
Soltanto dopo l'overvoltaggio hai trovato stabilità.
 
 
 
 >
 > Il motivo del post è proprio la stranezza della cosa!
 >
 >
 
La cosa non è strana: è difficile che i 2 moduli di cui parli siano 
davvero identici, pertanto la loro disposizione influisce sulla stabilità.
 

 I moduli hanno tutti la stessa densita'?
 
è questo kit:
 
https://www.amazon.it/Corsair-CMK32GX4M2B3200C16-Vengeance-Prestazioni-Supporto/dp/B016ORTNI2/ref=sr_1_6?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1473663040&sr=1-6&keywords=corsair+3200+xmp
 

 davvero identici, pertanto la loro disposizione influisce sulla stabilità.
 
E quindi adesso mi credi! :-)
 

 0.05
 
ok, sono solo 0,005 Volt in piu', quindi un'inezia
rispetto alla tensione nominale del produttore delle RAM,
il "problema" e' che č 0,15V piu' alta rispetto
alla tensione ufficiale del produttore di CPU (Intel),
"problema" scritto tra virgolette
 
credo che il problema di instabilita' dipenda dal fatto
che i produttori di memorie "tirano" al limite i chip
effettuando il binning di quelli piu' performanti (o fortunati),
quindi nella produzione in serie puo' esserci uno scarto
nei parametri di funzionamento, aggiungi la stessa
probabilita' di avere uno scarto nella produzione delle
mainboard, ed ottieni un bel mix di incertezza...
 
 
potresti fare dei test, per curiosita' mia personale,
impostando la memoria a 3200MHz e poi 2800/2666/ 2400 ?
(in base al tempo che hai a disposizione)
 
non bench sistentici, ma basati su applicazioni reali
(riproducibili facilmente, es. CineBench, y-cruncher e simili)
 
ciao
luca
 
 
 

 (riproducibili facilmente, es. CineBench, y-cruncher e simili)
 
 
nelle ultime settimane/giorni ho eseguito questi benchmark con prime95:
 
 
2133 mhz - c15:
Timings for 1024K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  5.07,  5.06,  5.07, 
5.09 ms.  Throughput: 788.26 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1024K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  5.45, 
5.47,  5.46,  5.47 ms.  Throughput: 732.20 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1280K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  6.26,  6.19,  6.35, 
6.36 ms.  Throughput: 635.96 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1280K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  6.86, 
6.92,  6.94,  6.93 ms.  Throughput: 578.82 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1536K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  7.58,  7.55,  7.57, 
7.54 ms.  Throughput: 529.18 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1536K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  8.36, 
8.32,  8.33,  8.38 ms.  Throughput: 479.14 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1792K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  9.02,  8.99,  8.94, 
8.86 ms.  Throughput: 446.65 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1792K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  9.82, 
9.82,  9.72,  9.87 ms.  Throughput: 407.84 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2048K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 10.61, 10.59, 10.58, 
10.32 ms.  Throughput: 380.01 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2048K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 11.37, 
11.42, 11.38, 11.40 ms.  Throughput: 351.01 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2560K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 13.30, 13.26, 13.19, 
13.09 ms.  Throughput: 302.86 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2560K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 14.16, 
14.22, 14.18, 14.22 ms.  Throughput: 281.81 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3072K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 16.02, 15.97, 15.91, 
15.71 ms.  Throughput: 251.51 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3072K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 16.88, 
17.00, 17.09, 17.10 ms.  Throughput: 235.07 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3584K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 19.08, 18.99, 19.03, 
18.81 ms.  Throughput: 210.77 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3584K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 19.86, 
19.88, 19.90, 19.88 ms.  Throughput: 201.21 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 4096K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 21.73, 21.59, 21.72, 
21.56 ms.  Throughput: 184.78 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 4096K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 22.94, 
22.92, 22.67, 22.65 ms.  Throughput: 175.49 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 5120K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 27.34, 27.30, 27.35, 
27.38 ms.  Throughput: 146.29 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 5120K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 28.56, 
28.42, 28.56, 28.46 ms.  Throughput: 140.35 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 6144K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 33.45, 33.50, 33.19, 
33.13 ms.  Throughput: 120.05 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 6144K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 37.18, 
36.88, 37.08, 37.29 ms.  Throughput: 107.80 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 7168K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 38.73, 38.79, 39.38, 
39.13 ms.  Throughput: 102.54 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 7168K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 44.46, 
44.25, 43.72, 44.30 ms.  Throughput: 90.53 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 8192K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 44.72, 44.46, 45.07, 
45.09 ms.  Throughput: 89.22 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 8192K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 52.00, 
51.90, 51.61, 51.49 ms.  Throughput: 77.30 iter/sec.
 
 
 
 
2600 mhz - c15:
 
Timings for 1024K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  4.49,  4.48,  4.49, 
4.45 ms.  Throughput: 893.27 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1024K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  4.72, 
4.70,  4.74,  4.70 ms.  Throughput: 848.63 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1280K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  5.59,  5.46,  5.48, 
5.53 ms.  Throughput: 725.28 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1280K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  5.92, 
5.90,  5.92,  5.92 ms.  Throughput: 676.25 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1536K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  6.64,  6.60,  6.64, 
6.68 ms.  Throughput: 602.27 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1536K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  7.17, 
7.13,  7.23,  7.15 ms.  Throughput: 557.79 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1792K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  7.96,  7.94,  8.00, 
8.01 ms.  Throughput: 501.34 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1792K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  8.34, 
8.39,  8.41,  8.43 ms.  Throughput: 476.49 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2048K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  9.28,  9.32,  9.23, 
9.46 ms.  Throughput: 429.14 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2048K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  9.80, 
9.92,  9.82,  9.79 ms.  Throughput: 406.82 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2560K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 11.71, 11.62, 11.74, 
11.63 ms.  Throughput: 342.58 iter/sec.
 
 
Timings for 2560K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 12.27, 
12.17, 12.38, 12.20 ms.  Throughput: 326.37 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3072K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 14.17, 14.11, 14.12, 
14.08 ms.  Throughput: 283.30 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3072K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 14.71, 
14.62, 14.69, 14.69 ms.  Throughput: 272.50 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3584K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 16.67, 16.55, 16.76, 
16.45 ms.  Throughput: 240.91 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3584K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 17.23, 
17.19, 17.17, 17.22 ms.  Throughput: 232.50 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 4096K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 18.80, 18.73, 18.72, 
18.62 ms.  Throughput: 213.71 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 4096K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 19.56, 
19.61, 19.68, 19.64 ms.  Throughput: 203.84 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 5120K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 24.05, 23.98, 23.96, 
24.07 ms.  Throughput: 166.57 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 5120K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 24.76, 
24.73, 24.72, 24.80 ms.  Throughput: 161.59 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 6144K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 29.30, 29.06, 29.08, 
29.01 ms.  Throughput: 137.40 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 6144K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 32.11, 
31.94, 31.97, 32.09 ms.  Throughput: 124.91 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 7168K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 34.53, 34.34, 34.54, 
34.28 ms.  Throughput: 116.21 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 7168K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 38.20, 
37.98, 38.14, 38.03 ms.  Throughput: 105.02 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 8192K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 39.15, 39.10, 39.40, 
39.27 ms.  Throughput: 101.97 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 8192K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 45.07, 
44.11, 44.98, 44.66 ms.  Throughput: 89.48 iter/sec.
 
 
3000 mhz - c16:
Timings for 1024K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  4.06,  4.08,  4.05, 
4.08 ms.  Throughput: 983.35 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1024K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  4.37, 
4.32,  4.34,  4.34 ms.  Throughput: 921.37 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1280K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  5.01,  5.02,  4.99, 
5.00 ms.  Throughput: 798.87 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1280K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  5.46, 
5.47,  5.49,  5.47 ms.  Throughput: 730.74 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1536K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  6.10,  6.10,  6.08, 
6.07 ms.  Throughput: 657.05 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1536K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  6.63, 
6.63,  6.60,  6.63 ms.  Throughput: 604.00 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1792K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  7.32,  7.27,  7.28, 
7.24 ms.  Throughput: 549.48 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1792K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  7.72, 
7.74,  7.77,  7.81 ms.  Throughput: 515.42 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2048K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  8.51,  8.47,  8.68, 
8.62 ms.  Throughput: 466.67 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2048K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  9.06, 
9.05,  9.08,  9.04 ms.  Throughput: 441.65 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2560K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 10.90, 10.87, 10.85, 
10.82 ms.  Throughput: 368.27 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2560K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 11.27, 
11.23, 11.23, 11.22 ms.  Throughput: 355.93 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3072K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 12.92, 12.86, 12.86, 
12.72 ms.  Throughput: 311.56 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3072K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 13.37, 
13.40, 13.59, 13.70 ms.  Throughput: 296.01 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3584K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 15.46, 15.43, 15.49, 
15.37 ms.  Throughput: 259.10 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3584K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 15.84, 
15.90, 15.95, 15.83 ms.  Throughput: 251.86 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 4096K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 17.52, 17.48, 17.47, 
17.26 ms.  Throughput: 229.45 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 4096K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 18.10, 
18.20, 18.26, 18.28 ms.  Throughput: 219.67 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 5120K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 22.45, 22.37, 22.37, 
22.36 ms.  Throughput: 178.67 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 5120K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 22.95, 
22.86, 23.07, 22.87 ms.  Throughput: 174.40 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 6144K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 27.14, 27.12, 26.99, 
26.93 ms.  Throughput: 147.91 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 6144K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 29.46, 
29.44, 29.39, 29.48 ms.  Throughput: 135.86 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 7168K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 31.59, 31.51, 31.99, 
31.96 ms.  Throughput: 125.94 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 7168K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 35.31, 
34.97, 35.23, 35.06 ms.  Throughput: 113.83 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 8192K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 36.29, 36.09, 36.56, 
36.54 ms.  Throughput: 109.98 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 8192K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 41.25, 
41.28, 41.40, 41.32 ms.  Throughput: 96.82 iter/sec.
 
 
 
3200 mhz -c16:
 
 
Timings for 1024K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  3.92,  3.94,  3.91, 
3.91 ms.  Throughput: 1020.96 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1024K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  4.10, 
4.08,  4.09,  4.09 ms.  Throughput: 978.04 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1280K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  4.75,  4.75,  4.75, 
4.75 ms.  Throughput: 842.42 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1280K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  5.18, 
5.16,  5.18,  5.21 ms.  Throughput: 772.03 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1536K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  5.84,  5.83,  5.86, 
5.87 ms.  Throughput: 683.73 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1536K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  6.25, 
6.25,  6.25,  6.25 ms.  Throughput: 639.94 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1792K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  7.06,  7.07,  7.10, 
7.06 ms.  Throughput: 565.82 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 1792K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  7.32, 
7.35,  7.32,  7.34 ms.  Throughput: 545.62 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2048K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers):  8.12,  8.09,  8.14, 
8.13 ms.  Throughput: 492.57 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2048K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers):  8.55, 
8.55,  8.57,  8.54 ms.  Throughput: 467.67 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2560K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 10.19, 10.18, 10.14, 
10.11 ms.  Throughput: 393.95 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 2560K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 10.67, 
10.64, 10.63, 10.71 ms.  Throughput: 375.17 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3072K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 12.27, 12.22, 12.22, 
12.13 ms.  Throughput: 327.63 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3072K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 12.79, 
12.92, 12.85, 12.81 ms.  Throughput: 311.53 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3584K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 14.60, 14.51, 14.49, 
14.36 ms.  Throughput: 276.06 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 3584K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 15.11, 
15.13, 15.11, 15.12 ms.  Throughput: 264.61 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 4096K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 16.89, 16.70, 16.90, 
16.78 ms.  Throughput: 237.84 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 4096K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 17.40, 
17.27, 17.28, 17.33 ms.  Throughput: 230.98 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 5120K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 21.39, 21.34, 21.32, 
21.36 ms.  Throughput: 187.30 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 5120K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 21.83, 
21.80, 21.75, 21.79 ms.  Throughput: 183.56 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 6144K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 25.58, 25.27, 25.71, 
25.88 ms.  Throughput: 156.21 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 6144K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 28.01, 
27.79, 27.86, 27.94 ms.  Throughput: 143.37 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 7168K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 30.16, 29.97, 30.43, 
30.41 ms.  Throughput: 132.28 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 7168K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 33.36, 
33.05, 33.38, 33.25 ms.  Throughput: 120.26 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 8192K FFT length (4 cpus, 4 workers): 34.87, 34.74, 34.69, 
34.77 ms.  Throughput: 115.05 iter/sec.
 
Timings for 8192K FFT length (4 cpus hyperthreaded, 4 workers): 39.38, 
39.14, 39.65, 39.14 ms.  Throughput: 101.71 iter/sec
 
 
 
 
 
 

 3200 mhz -c16:


 (stabilita', compatibilita', ecc)
 
però a me viene il dubbio che ste memorie siano tutte uguali e che basta 
prendere qualsiasi kit a 2133 e farlo arrivare a 3200(se la scheda madre 
ci arriva).
 
Non ho controprove, avendo preso un kit da 3200 mhz.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Max ha pensato forte :

Credici.. :D

 Non ho controprove, avendo preso un kit da 3200 mhz.
 
purtroppo per noi, non e' cosi'...
 
ciao
luca
 
 
 


no, ma sono contento se non è cosi, visto che avrò speso una trentina di 
euro in più per i 3200 mhz! :-)


In ogni caso, ad ogni passaggio ad una nuova tecnologia (da ddr a ddr2 
etc) all'inizio si tribola sempre un pò.
Slang
 
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