Newsgroup: it.hobby.hi-fi
Titolo: 300 B speakers

http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/victory.html
-- 
Ciao Berry
HiFi Home Theater Forum: 
http://www.forumcommunity.net/?c=7926
N.1 HiFi www:
soundberry.com
,Alexa certified.Site & Forum di Best Buy per Cinema e Musica in casa:selezioni,review,test in raffronto diretto,scritte da utenti.
Sebbene queste siano le mie piu' sincere opinioni di appassionato, sono un commerciante.Non basatevi solo su queste affermazioni ma ascoltate sempre in raffronto diretto prima di acquistare.

 
http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/victory.html
la cosa è fisicamente I-M-P-O-S-S-I-B-I-L-E
due wooferelli da 6,5 pollici non riusciranno mai a produrre 97 dB di 
pressione, soprattutto in bassa frequenza, e men che meno su 14 
ohm, e loro lo dicono pure:
"If bottom octave response is not a priority, the Victory will be near 
impossible to surpass."
e non penso che il problema sia solo per i bassi profondi, oserei dire 
che quei diffusori inizieranno a suonare, se va bene,  a 100Hz o giù di 
lì...
In conclusione, a fare un megamidrange da 97 dB sono capaci tutti...
ciao
Filippo
www.audiofanatic.it
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
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 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:ah5uo01alk254l7li...@4ax.com...
Ma non bastavano le Usher da 87 db che suonano come diffusori da 90 db?
5000 dollaroni sonanti... alla faccia dell'interesse per gli appassionati.
Ma tu, almeno, le hai ascoltate? Come suonano?
Ciao
Clark Kent


www.audiofanatic.it
Ma leggi qui:
HP's Workshop
The Perils of Reviewing (or) Into the Gray Zone with HP
The Coincident Technologies Total Victory Speaker System
-------------------------------------------------------
There is an unexplored world in audio criticism. This world is the one
of the serious analysis of neglected speaker systems. I'm talking
about the designs emanating from the "gray zone", that broad band
between the really terrific small speakers and those biggies aspiring
to be "statements" of one sort or the other.
These are the systems whose price falls between the cracks, being
neither fish (great buys) nor fowl (those aspiring to fly like the
real thing and at ozone layer prices). To be fair, I probably should
say the gray zone is mostly unexplored by the more thoughtful or
ambitious reviewers who are, almost to the man, mostly jockeying to
review the latest and greatest things.
And so, at the outset, I wanted you to know this is not going to be a
conventional review. As I probed more deeply into the speakers
performance, I came to a point where I felt a rabbit hole had
unexpectedly opened up under my feet and that there were all sorts of
directions I might pursue to understand not just the speaker, but its
interactions with the rest of the system. You will find these nuggets
of doubt embedded in the text, and I will go further prospecting
during the next year.
I want you with me as I take an up-close look at a $11,500/pair set of
Canadian speakers, the Coincident Speaker Technologies' Total
Victorys, whose designer's ambition to create a great multi-way system
pushes the envelope, though bumping seriously up against the
constraints of price.
So why these speakers from Coincident Technology?
I was intrigued by the fact of their high sensitivity (rated at 97db,
one watt, one meter). I thought I might get myself a chance to
audition some of the highly-touted low-powered tubed amplifiers we had
on hand; and hear them from a design said to be refreshingly free of
coloration, something of a rarity among high-sensitivity speakers.
Even these attributes didn't make the speakers a matter of high
priority, until Chance entered the picture. And it came with our need
to establish an initial multi-channel music system to evaluate
high-definition digital in the form of SACD and DVD-A. The
conglomerate system we'd thrown together for the home-theater system
(in room 1) just wasn't creating a convincing soundfield, so we put
the Total Victorys in first as the main left and right speakers, which
confirmed our not-so-dark suspicion that multi-channel sound, to be
heard aright, would require - if not five identical speakers for the
main channels - then five speakers of similar manufacture and sound.
To this end, we used three smaller Coincident Technology speakers
(impressively solid two-way systems called the Total Eclipses) for the
center and the two rears. (We used an array of four Alon Thunderbolt
subs for the .1 channel, one at each corner of the room).
The resulting sound was mightily impressive. Just how impressive, of
course, I couldn't know at first, since I had no baseline experiences
to use as a sounding board. The dynamic range, with Ed Meitner's
electronics (the DAC-6 SACD decoder) and his modification of a
Phillips 1000 player, was, on SACD, little short of breathtaking,
showing me, definitively, that conventional 16/44 digital simply could
not reproduce either the dynamic contrasts or width of dynamics of the
real thing, or, for that matter, of the best analog (setting aside the
question of low-bass loudness). The midbass articulation struck both
me, and visiting luminaries, as something special. Percussive
transients had the freedom and ability to float over an orchestral
texture that one always encounters in real, unamplified music, though
I was a little surprised at the relative absence of depth-of-field
from the front stage, since I anticipated a realistic sense of
three-dimensional depth would be a slam-dunk for multichannel.
Let no one tell you that reviewing a multichannel system is anything
like reviewing a two-channel stereo speaker setup. They just are not
the same experiences and it's almost impossible to deduce from the
two-channel experience how the same speakers will perform when the
channels are multiplied.
I discovered that the more speakers you add to a soundstage, the more
forgiving that system will be of shortcomings and colorations in the
speakers themselves. Which worked brilliantly and to the advantage of
the Coincidents. You'd think I should have known this, given my
experiences with multi-driver arrays in ordinary stereo setups, but,
nevertheless, my reaction has been one of consternation. How exactly,
I now ask myself, are you going to be able to reliably and critically
review a multi-channel-read non-surround, non-home-theater-system for
the playback of music? What I wouldn't have anticipated was that a set
of highly musical speakers set up for surround never came alive. But
such was the case with an Alon Lotus-Elite based-system I thought
extraordinary in regular stereo. And, if it's another irony you'd
like: The Magnepan surrounds, from which I expected an Alon-like
disappointment, came to life with a transparency and excitement that
were not just revelatory, but taught me a thing or two about
multichannel and dipolar dispersion.
It's both wise, and conservative, to keep in mind that we are not yet
playing with a full deck when it comes to multichannel sound
reproduction. SACD encoding and decoding will continue improve (as no
doubt will DVD-A as well). Ed Meitner, for one, is staking his
professional reputation on the SACD. And those improvements will, no
doubt, take place in the top octaves. Further, I think it's safe to
say we as reviewers, are still on a steep learning curve with the
multichannel experience and it's extremely difficult to separate, in
discriminating fashion, the impact of it's broadly reproduced
soundfield from frequency and dynamic shortcomings. Remember, the more
speakers, the more forgiving of their individual limitations.
Coincident's resident designer, Israel Blume, importuned me to
consider the Victorys as two-channel reproducers once I had discussed
their performance in the original essay on SACD (see Issue 141), and
in Issue 143 as a Super Component. Scot Markwell set the speakers up
in Music Room 2, with the Antique Sound Labs AQ1009 845 DT amplifier,
a push-pull triode design good for 60 watts each. And truth to tell,
the speakers sounded sweeter and more extended on top than they had,
even with the tube amps driving them in the multichannel system. More
electrostatic-like, if you will. On a quick listen, just gorgeous. So,
what the hell thought I, maybe I've been in a rut, let's give them a
shot.
At this point, we should discuss the Total Victory as a speaker. Its
tech specs are essential to understanding what will come next. Its
impedance is 10 ohms, on the high side for some amps (not the
so-called SETs though). The specs say the speaker can be driven with
as few as 3 watts, and can comfortably handle powers all the way up to
300 watts. (This is true, by the way.) It's a heavyweight at 200
pounds per speaker, and its dimensions are a bit awkward, nearly two
feet deep, nine inches across, and just a few inches short of five
feet in height.
Within its highly-reinforced enclosure are nine drivers, each in a
separate sub-cabinet, with its four 8-inch woofers firing to the side
(out or in, your choice by placement) and the other five drivers
forward facing. These include an "isodynamic" planar quasi-ribbon
(Kapron film based) tweeter (operating above 3kHz), two 3-inch
(fabric) dome midranges (1 to 3kHz), arranged in D'Appolito fashion
(and perhaps set too close together), and two Seas 6.5-inch midbass
units (that roll off, acoustically, at 81Hz), and four Scanspeak
woofers, operating below 100Hz, and tunes to a port at 81Hz. All of
the speakers in the system are housed in their own sub-enclosures. The
crossovers are all first order.
It's evident, from our discussions and correspondences with the
designer, that every element in the system was subjected to intensive
analysis, but I neither have the space nor inclination to go into such
deep detail herein, though you could, if interested, contact him at
ibl...@coincidentspeaker.com
. Example: Blume says, "I firmly believe
that everything, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant, makes
a sonic difference" and cites the fact that Coincident makes its own
binding posts of 5N copper-solid .25" posts, mounted on .25"
high-density acrylic. Need I say, once again, that he was one of the
earliest readers of this magazine before he got into the business
himself? Everything sounds is a mantra he knows by heart.
At the outset, I decided to keep most of the elements in the
two-channel system constant, with the exception of the basic
amplifiers themselves.
I don't believe you can test any speaker system with a single
amplifier. Since I had reason to believe this particular system was
capable of high and exacting resolution through most of its range I
decided to evaluate the pair using four special, but unlike,
amplifiers: The Conrad-Johnson Premier 140's (strapped for monoblock
operation and capable of a mono output of 280 watts per side); the new
VAC Standard 220 monoblocks, the Antique Sound Labs 845 push-pull
triodes, and finally, the one solid-state unit, a sweet sounding
thing, the Plinius SB-300.
For LP playback, I used the VPI TNT-HRX table and JMW Memorial
12.5-inch arm and Lyra/Scantech Titan moving-coil cartridge. The
phonostage was that of the new Burmeister 011 full preamplifier. Some
of the music: the Classic 45-rpm disc of "Un Bal" from the Berlioz'
Symphonie Fantastique (Munch, Boston), the new Classic transfer of
Songs of the Auvergne (Davrath), the "Sandman" cut from America, the
Classic 45-rpm disc of Tchaikovksy's Nutcracker (Suite) from The Royal
Ballet (Ansermet).
For digital playback, I used the MSB (Revised) Platinum CD player,
using both its own high-output passive attenuator (instead of a
linestage) and, for contrariness' sake, the Emotive Audio tubed
linestage (also part of the LP playback chain). Some, but not all, of
the CDs in play: The Thin Red Line (soundtrack, cuts 3, 6 and 7);
Shchederin/Bizet Carmen (Suite), Fiedler, Boston; parts of Puccini's
Tosca (the EMI version with Pappano conducting); Baroque Beatles (in
particular cut 15, "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"); Hanson The
Composer and his Orchestra (Mercury).
I wanted the widest range of equipment and the widest range of
recorded material to push the speakers to their limits. (For reasons
that will all too soon become apparent, I haven't mentioned the
interconnects.)
A couple of short thoughts: I didn't find setup very difficult. I used
the Pearson Rule of Thirds to establish the proximate positions and
with only minor adjustments, stuck with these positions. Almost all of
the adjustments were made to toe the speakers in toward my listening
position (at the head of an equilateral triangle). The Victory's are
all bevel-edged, so that there will be no cabinet diffractions
(another though to which we shall return shortly). I was surprised by
how much they had to be toed-in order to achieve the correct
centerfield of sound, as well as width to the right and left of their
outside edges. I found that I wound up using the speakers configured
much as they had been in the Room 1 multichannel setup. Markwell and I
experimented with the woofers, and decided the most realistic bass was
achieved with the woofers toward the walls of the room.
At the outset - and I want you to keep this in mind - whatever
shortcomings I found, the Victorys were never less than spectacularly
impressive and capable of virtually all the fidelity you could ask
for.
The Coincident speakers revealed the individual "character" of each
amplifier I used. They did not, as you may have already surmised,
sound much alike. Briefly: The Premiers were the most music-like of
the bunch, but "soft" at the very top, just like, as I would learn,
the speaker itself. The VACs weren't happy in this setup and that
finding would be one of the things that prompted our deeper look
later. The 845's were just gorgeous, especially in the lower and
middle highs, though colored like an electrostatic in the midrange,
and quite ripe below that point. The Plinius didn't sound much like
transistors at all, or, for that matter, like earlier Plinius designs
in the highs.
Certain things about the Victorys were, after quite a few hours,
apparent. Its mid-bass is superb, and just possibly as good as I've
heard from any multi-driver system. There is a palpability and
authentic richness to lower string and percussion sounds that startled
me. Low-frequency ambient air lent a real sense of the hall. As Blume
suggested in a letter to me, he made some sacrifices with the bottom
octave (where there mostly isn't a plethora of information) to get the
foundation of the orchestra just right. You won't notice a bottom
octave shortcoming when the music is rolling along at something less
than a double or triple forte. But, let things get loud and a bit
sticky, and the fundamentals below about 40Hz become soft ans somewhat
"plumy" with the transient impact of say, a big bass drum, somewhat
dulled. (An aside: But not with the new Siltech cables; more about
this to come.) I'd say this is no big deal, but you might think
otherwise. When, for instance, the two bass drums (cut 6, Thin Red
Line) are slammed; you couldn't ask for more, er, "slam", but then
there's not much else going on; but earlier on (cut 3), in a more
fully scored passage, that same drum is more of a feeling than a
specific note.
Just above 3kHz, somewhat above the frequency where the planar unit
cuts in, the sound extends upwards, with great sweetness, inner
detailing, and a goodly amount of air. But the tweeter starts to roll
just above 12kHz, and so you may find that last little frisson of
"thereness", made manifest in delicate sustained overtones from struck
percussion, a bit shy. Not, as in the case of the ultra-bottom, any
big deal if it's the essential truth you want, and that is what the
Victorys do give. This simply is no big deal in most home systems, nor
would you expect much way up yonder from a speaker in its price range.
That said, one of the most troubling things about the Victorys, as far
as this man is concerned, is some sort of perturbation in the
crossover region between the midrange drivers and the planar units. At
normal listening levels, with material that doesn't really push the
system, what you'll hear is a sexy, silky sheen, not unlike that of
the first-generation Magnepan ribbons. This plateau or whatever-it-is
certainly makes virtually all of the details encoded in a disc or CD
plain to hear and suggests that these speakers would make a fine
"monitor" or reference in a recording studio.
And I wonder if this "plateau" is what foreshortens the field of
depth, a phenomenon I first attributed to a failing of present-day
SACD. Listening at some length, one becomes aware that there isn't
much layered depth in evidence here. Which there would be if something
weren't missing or greatly reduced in the critical 3-to-8kHz range,
where much of the ambient air, echo, and reflection information
originates. The reason I think this might be so os because the field
of depth shrinks even further when big orchestral fortissimi come
along, aggravating what sounds like a resonance to me. My educated
guess is that the solitary ribbon tweeter is running into trouble at
the bottom of its range and near its crossover point.
What's been left unsaid here is the fact that the Victorys are free of
the sort of "character" that makes a mockery of so many full-range
speaker systems. It is neither "dark" nor brightly white (as in yang
land), nor thin, nor too, too richly textured. This is not to say it
can't sound that way with an unhappy amplifier match. But what it can
do, and of this I am sure, is reproduce the basic character of an
amplifier with a vanishingly low coloration of its own.
So what's the "but"?
Well, I have two reservations about the speaker that I am certain are
inherent to its "sound". Remember the perturbation in the lower highs
(centered, we'd guess, around 3kHz, but, I'd guess, extending above
that point)? Well, when the speaker system is pushed, it becomes
congested in this range. The soundfield collapses. The sound is
similar to amplifier clipping, which at first I thought it might be.
But it was a congestion (a collapsing of the open-airiness in that
region and scrunching together of the instrumental overtones) that I
heard on all the amplifiers, and certainly neither the Plinius nor the
Connie J. could have been driven into clipping.
At first I wondered if I had been spoiled by the elaborate
multi-driver arrays of the big systems I'd been using as a reference.
The Victorys do not sound comfortable or effortless when pushed really
hard. I wondered if a person unfamiliar with the ease of a big system
might even notice the Victorys forwardness above the upper midrange.
There was one more small, but forgivably narrow in frequencies,
glitch. In the 80 to 120Hz region the speaker exhibited an audible
peak in output, which could give a second harmonic goosing to the bass
(not dissimilar from what we used to find on the BBC Rogers LS3/5As).
This can sound most captivating, but it does and will add a bit of
one-note sloppiness to the upper partials of the string bass and other
instruments, certain drums, in this range. I could live with this.
With, for example, the 845 amplifiers, and their already extra-rich
texture down there, the effect became noticeably pronounced, with some
curious side effects, such as a psychoacoustic effect, that of a
slightly recessive midrange, which gave the Victorys an
electrostatic-like coloration (not at all unattractive). This, plus
the very sweetness and highly attractive detailing of the upper
partials this combination produced, could drive one into a
sugar-overload of the sort that is most appealing in the absence of
real music, and easily mistaken for a good orchestra in one of the
worlds best halls.
Another of the many surprises (for me) in this venture came with the
Plinius SB-300, which is, in terms of its top octave, far beyond that
firm's earliest designs. On the Victorys, the Plinius had a couple of
top octaves (up to circa 12kHz) that were the sonic twins of the
Antique Sound Labs 845. And whoever heard of a solid-state amp with a
triode-like authenticity at the top? In this case, of course, the
midbass was most excellent (though not as authentically realistic as
that of the Premiere).
Near the tail end of the sessions, I thought it would be instructive
to change fromt the Nordost Valhalla interconnects and speaker cables
to the new Siltech Generation 6 top-of-the-line models, which are
priced even higher than the Valhallas (taken together the cost might
buy you a bungalow in Big-Sur).
I tried both sets of connectors with the Conrad-Johnson Premier and
the Plinius. I didn"t expect them to sound alike, and, indeed, they
did not. What fascinated me was the fact that the sound of the
Valhallas and the Siltechs, the tonal character, audibly changed from
amp to amp and that in a way that I could not attribute to the
speakers essential sonic signatures. To the credit of the speakers,
such distinctions were readily obvious. It is one of those mysteries
that intrigued me.
I respect Blume's achievement here. And I would use the Victorys and
the Eclipses, happily and in a flash, in a multichannel system. They
are knockouts in that context. In the world of two-channel sound, the
Victorys would best be used as studio monitors (and ought to be,
instead of the junk you mostly now find at recording sessions), since
there is little they do not reveal. But in this two-channel context,
and for long term listening, I'll withhold final judgment until that
upper midrange/lower treble problem is solved.


E che c'azzecca?!


 Ma leggi qui:
e cosa dovrei leggere? cose che confermano esattamente quello che 
dico
prima di tutto cerca di non imbrogliare: la recensione che hai postato 
č relativa alla TOTAL Victory, che ha 4, dicasi quattro woofer da 8 
pollici in aggiunta e costa 11,500 dollarozzi
http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/total_victory.html
inoltre, anche con 4 wooferelli da 20cm (che equivalgono piů o meno 
a un 18pollici), arrivare a 97 dB in bassissima frequenza non č molto 
facile a meno di ricorrere a qualche trucchetto:
"There was one more small, but forgivably narrow in frequencies, 
glitch. In the 80 to 120Hz region the speaker exhibited an audible 
peak in output, which could give a second harmonic goosing to the 
bass 
(not dissimilar from what we used to find on the BBC Rogers 
LS3/5As). 
This can sound most captivating, but it does and will add a bit of 
one-note sloppiness to the upper partials of the string bass and other 
instruments, certain drums, in this range. I could live with this. 
in pratica il sistema č studiato in modo da fare un po' di BUM BUM, 
altrimenti la sensazione di leggerezza del basso sarebbe troppo 
evidente
e questo poi, cosa vorrebbe dire?
So what's the "but"? 
Well, I have two reservations about the speaker that I am certain are 
inherent to its "sound". Remember the perturbation in the lower highs 
(centered, we'd guess, around 3kHz, but, I'd guess, extending above 
that point)? Well, when the speaker system is pushed, it becomes 
congested in this range. The soundfield collapses. The sound is 
similar to amplifier clipping, which at first I thought it might be. 
But it was a congestion (a collapsing of the open-airiness in that 
region and scrunching together of the instrumental overtones) that I 
heard on all the amplifiers, and certainly neither the Plinius nor the 
Connie J. could have been driven into clipping. 
At first I wondered if I had been spoiled by the elaborate 
multi-driver arrays of the big systems I'd been using as a reference. 
The Victorys do not sound comfortable or effortless when pushed 
really 
hard. I wondered if a person unfamiliar with the ease of a big system 
might even notice the Victorys forwardness above the upper midrange.
..che dovrei spendere 11,500 dollari per sentire a basso volume 
perchč la cassa va in crisi appena smanetto un po? :-)))) 
non voglio neppure pensare a come potrebbe suonare la cassa 
"piccola" senza woofer :-)))
un consiglio, smettila di darti la zappa sui piedi...


 prima di tutto cerca di non imbrogliare: 
Gli riesce difficile :-)))))))
