Newsgroup: it.sociale.scout
Titolo: translation, please.

Introduction
Baden-Powell was the British soldier who founded the Boy Scout and
Girl Guide movement. During the Boer War (1899-1902) he won renown for
holding Mafeking against a Boer siege for a grisly 217 days. He later
organized the South African constabulary. Having formed the Boy Scouts
(1908) and, with his sister Agnes Baden-Powell, the Girl Guides
(1909), Baden-Powell devoted the rest of his life to the scouting
movement, writing many books on scouting, of which the best known is
the much parodied 'Scouting For Boys'. 
Evidence :
From: Jeal, Tim. Baden-Powell. Hutchinson. London, 1989. (680 pages.
Illust.) These extracts really don't do justice either to Jeals's
immense and definitive biography, nor to Baden-Powell's complex
personality. If you want a more rounded picture, you should read the
book. 
[Page 103] 
"The evidence available points inexorably to the conclusion that
Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual." 
[Page 92] 
"At Gilwell Park, the Scouts' camping ground in Epping Forest, he
always enjoyed watching the boys swimming naked, and would sometimes
chat with them after they had 'just stripped off'. When public
censoriousness finally turned against male nudity, treating it in the
same way as female nudity, Baden-Powell was appaled." 
"Although Baden-Powell publicly stated that flogging might be a
deterrent to Scouters [Scout Masters] who abused the trust placed in
them, he allowed Patterson and Byrne [of Gilwell Park] to escape
unscathed. Headquarters evidently preffered not to let it be known
that for almost fifteen years the one job in the Movement requiring
men of unimpeachable integrity had been occupied by a succession of
active paederasts." 
[Pages 92-94] 
"Another incident illustrative of Baden-Powell's appreciation of naked
boys occurred at Charterhouse, when he was staying overnight at the
school with his old friend A. H. Tod, who had been in the Rifle Corps
and in the football 1st XI with him. In November 1919 Tod was over the
retirement age but still teaching because it was wartime and all the
younger staff had joined up. 'Stayed with Tod,' Stephe wrote in his
diary. 'Tod's photos of naked boys and trees etc. Excellent.'. That a
bachelor housemaster should have taken large numbers of nude
photographs of his boys evidently did not strike Baden-Powell as
undesirable. A few days later he wrote to Tod about starting a Scout
troop at the school and added that he would soon be visiting
Charterhouse again, 'which will give me the opportunity of seeing the
football; and possibly I might get a further look at those wonderful
photographs of yours!' 
This album of 'figure studies', as Tod described it, was still in the
library at Charterhouse in the mid-1960s, but by the end of that
permissive decade had been destroyed. This appalling act was
undertaken 'to protect Tod's reputation' and out of deference to the
feelings of the sons and grandsons of the boys depicted. Fortunately
the rest of Tod's albums were spared and they comprise what must be
finest single photographic record in existence of public school life
in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. So what were the
missing albums' contents' ? 
According to one source the nude figures were 'contrived and
artificial as regards poses', which makes them sound like those late
Victorian pseudo-classical nude photographs which were really
pornography but were sold under the guise of art. In the same way as
an artistic publication like 'The Artist and Journal of Home Culture'
appealed to homosexuals with its illustrations and its homoerotic
poetry. [...] There is little doubt that Tod was a repressed
homosexual; as indeed were many public school masters. The majority
managed to follow Plato's prescription glorifying the love of man for
man, or man for boy, while remaining physically chaste." 
[Page 96] 
"Baden-Powell was in a position of trust which made watching, at one
remove, the only way to satisfy his interest. The other was to seek
the company of men like Tod, who lived in close contact with young
males. Through their shared memories of Charterhouse and their
undoubted 'sentimentalism', which in both their cases found no
physical fulfillment, they would have had a close understanding that
required no word of explanation." 
[Pages 97-98] 
His reaction to the way of life of the homosexual Commander of a
sail-training ship is an example of partial recognition [of
homosexuality]. In March 1928 Stephe [Baden-Powell] visited the West
Country, hoping to learn whether it would feasible to acquire the old
Napoleonic man-of-war 'Implacable' for the Sea Scouts. This vessel was
part-owned by Mr George Wheatley, who owned and skippered a similar
ship, the 'Fotrdroyant', which he ran as a sail-training ship in
Falmouth Harbour. Baden-Powell went aboard and recorded in his diary:
"He trains about 40 boys at his own expense for the sea living on
board. His wife lives ashore!". Although Cobb chose only the
best-looking boys for his ship, it is quite possible that Baden-Powell
detected nothing untoward about the 'Foudroyant' and her crew. But if
his diary comment ('His wife lives ashore!') was meant merely as a
statement of fact, why that exclamation mark ? The obvious
interpretation must be that he knew well what other people would have
thought about Cobb's living arrangements if they had known about them;
they would have thought him up to no good, hence that exclamation
mark. If this is right, the absence of any note of disapproval (and
his diary contains plenty of that commodity in other places) may seem
very reprehensible in a public figure who ought to have been uniquely
sensitive to the welfare of boys. But Baden-Powell probably assumed
that men like Tod and Cobb were able to keep 'their sentimentalism
within limits'. After all, he too enjoyed the company of older boys
and young men and understood the emotional enjoyment derived from
their proximity." 
[Page 84-85] 
"With every hint of sex removed from a relationship he could get on
reasonably well with women. In spite of his obsession with 'manly'
sports, he also enjoyed feminine pastimes such as choosing fabrics and
furnishings, and designing embroidery patterns for regimental wives." 
"Of course, there could be no threat at all with very young girls and
for the first 50 years of his life Baden-Powell was rarely without
such correspondents." 
[Page 145] 
"His closest relationships were with much younger girls - children in
fact" 
[Page 435] 
He did, eventually marry, but his wife was a: "strange compound of
child and grown woman [...] "That he thought of her a mixture of young
woman, male comrade and child-friend is apparent in his earliest
letters." 
She also altered her appearance to suit Baden-Powell: 
[page 479] 
"Apart from flattening her breasts and concealing any hint of cleavage
with handkerchiefs, she promised herself that she would cut off most
of her hair..." 
He had previously written to a potential fiancee that he wanted her to
be... 
[Page 86] 
'a sort of Pete - (h'm that's odd; there is no feminine for Peter) a
sort of girl Peter Pan, the boy who couldn't grow up' 
"...he [Baden-Powell] was mesmerized by Peter Pan, which he saw twice
during its first month. He probably knew the famous cri de coeur in
Barrie's 'Tommy And Grizel': 'She knew that despite all he had gone
through, he was still a boy. And boys cannot love. Oh, is it not cruel
to ask a boy to love ?' When men remain boyish well into middle age,
continuing to love pranks and practical jokes, to enjoy making animal
noises with children and to seek attention by singing falsetto songs
in public, it seems reasonable to interpret this immaturity as
symptomatic - in part at least -- of a reluctance to grow up. To this
list should be added Stephe's [Baden-Powell's] lifelong addiction to
macabre tales and adventure stories, and his frequent use of
schoolboyish expletives in his letters: 'Te, he!' 'Hoo!', 'My wig!',
and so forth. Very often the best Scoutmasters, 'boy men' as he called
them, feared growing up too and never entirely succeeded. Consequently
they were capable of deep insights into minds of their boys and of
showing an intense sympathy with their interests." 
A.

Ma perchè..., non sai l'inglese?
...è caduto un "mito".
Dammi il libro e non il "COPIA&INCOLLA" da cui ti sei "documentato" e te lo
traduco anche in ETRUSCO, credimi.  ^___^
Non esiste l'Estrusco?
Vabbè, vorrà dire che per te me lo invento pure. :)
Ciao Tortellino.
Kaa.

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:aluu2l$2mfc$1...@phobos.ibnetwork.net...


 Girl Guide movement.
						-cut-
E' un ipotesi quantomeno interssante, e non toglierebbe niente allo 
Scoutismo così come è concepito oggi (d'altronde che BP fosse un santo 
non credo l'abbia mai detto nessuno, fondatore degli Scout, grande 
stratega militare, ma anche spietato in molte occasioni, a quanto ne 
so), ma per una questione come questa, che ha per me una certa 
rilevanza, credo sia doveroso citare l'opera che hai copiato e 
incollato... se non altro perchè mi piacerebbe approfondire la 
questione, se avesse basi certe...
Proprio perchè non mi va di fare finta di nulla, dimmi dove posso 
trovare queste e altre informazioni a riguardo, per favore.
					Grazie
							Alessandro
P.S.:Mi trovo spesso a condividere ciò che dici, tuttavia il modo in cui 
lo dici fa sì che non sempre ciò che proponi (come questo post) sia 
ascoltato o valutato, tacciato di inattendibilità e a volte è un vero e 
proprio peccato... lungi da me l'idea di farti "ramanzine" -mi 
distruggeresti di offese, forse lo farai lo stesso, pazienza-, ma a 
volte è facile mettersi a sedere su un terrazzo e sputare su tutto e 
tutti quelli che passano per strada sotto (la metafora è orribile, ma 
sono sicuro che il senso l'hai capito) senza dovere spiegazioni a 
nessuno, senza "mettersi davvero in gioco"
Fammi sapere qualcosa (anche in privato) di 'sta cosa di BP...
E se hai voglia, dimmi anche cosa pensi di quello che ho scritto qua 
sotto; se mi prenderai a offese, la tua reputazione su questo NGnon ne 
trarrà gran beneficio - il che probabilmente non ti interessa-, ma 
pazienza, a me interessava davvero...

... lungi da me l'idea di farti "ramanzine"
Ok, rotfl.
A.

Ok, non so perchč, ma mi ero fatto prendere anch'io dalla mania 
"dialoghiamo con l'Anchise", pur se, a differenza di altri, non avevoo 
certo l'intenzione di "riportarti sulla retta via" o cose del genere...
Scusami e resta sempre cosě, bello acido come sempre, ma non ti stupire 
delle reazioni... ;-)))
Ciao
			Alessandro
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