Newsgroup: it.hobby.fai-da-te
Titolo: Attn: Bung -  De Ruster -  How-to - Molto lungo - Inserto in Inglese -


Many people using the electrolysis method for rust reduction swear by 
stainless steel, stating (incorrectly) that it's not consumed, stays clean 
and seems safe.
Stainless steel is indeed consumed when used in the electrolysis process, 
although slowly. The main problem with using it is the hazardous waste it 
produces. Stainless steel contains chromium. The electrodes, and thus the 
chromium is consumed, and you end up with poisonous chromates in your 
electrolyte. Dumping these on the ground or down the drain is illegal. The 
compounds can cause severe skin problems and ultimately, cancer. Hexavalent 
chromate is poisonous. These compounds are not excused from hazardous waste 
regulations where household wastes are.
These compounds are bad enough that government regulations mandate 
"elimination of hexavalent chromate by 2007 for corrosion protection."

 Na2CO3 - Carbonato di Sodio!
[...]
Roger: ho letto
Con i prodotti chimici c'� sempre questo rischio e a me qualche 
dubbio resta ancora perch� nel primo articolo del francese quella 
che lui mostra nella foto
http://www.ma500.fr/amoi/index.php?2006/12/02/37-electrolyse
� soda caustica, senza ombra di dubbio anche perch� sto aiutando 
un'amica francese a ripulire il suo PC dai virus e me lo ha 
confermato: deboucher soude paillette eau froid si traduce 
"Disincrostante (tubi) Soda in scaglie (in) acqua fredda" .
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&source=hp&q=soude+paillette&meta=&aq=f&oq=
Comunque per fortuna prove non ne ho ancora fatte e oltretutto io 
ho solo Bicarbonato di Sodio che salvo altre confusioni � diverso 
dal Carbonato di Sodio e io per ora non ne ho.
Ti terr� informato e ancora grazie
Bung

Qui c'� un'altra versione del procedimento.
Basilarmente � sempre lo stesso...
ma questo testo riporta alcuni dettagli che non c'erano sul precedente.
Il prodotto � sempre: Carbonato di Sodio - Soda Solvay -Na2CO3
***********
ELECTROLYTIC RUST REMOVAL
Author: Ted Kinsey
Electrolysis is a method used to remove rust from metal
parts.
All information, illustrations and specifications are based
on the best information available at the time of publication.
This article has been reproduced with the permission of
the original author. Please respect all copyright issues.
This article has been revised to reflect information from
Additional Sources:
http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
http://www.htpaa.org.au/article-electro.php
.
What is electrolsis?
Electrolysis is a technique for returning surface rust to
iron. It uses the effect of a low voltage electric current and
a suitable electrolyte (solution). It has advantages over
the old standbys, like vinegar, CokeT, muriatic acid, Naval
Jelly, wire brushing, sand blasting. These methods all
remove material to remove the rust, including un-rusted
surfaces. With many, the metal is left with a "pickled" look
or a characteristic color and texture. The electrolytic
method removes nothing: by returning surface rust to
metallic iron, rust scale is loosened and can be easily
removed. Un-rusted metal is not affected in any way.
What about screws, pivots, etc. that are rusted tight?
Electrolysis will frequently solve these problems, without
the need for force, which can break things. Is it safe? The
solutions used are not hazardous; the voltages and currents
are low, so there is no electrical hazard. No noxious fumes
are produced. The method is self-limiting: it is impossible
to over clean an object.
NOTE: Small amounts of hydrogen are emitted in the
electrolysis process. Good ventilation or an outdoor
work site is required.
Where did this method come from?
Electrolysis is a standard technique in the artifact
restoration business. I wrote this up for the Chronicle of
the Early American Industries Association a few years
back. Most of the tool collectors around here use it.
What do I need?
. A plastic tub
. An iron electrode
. Water and washing soda (ARM & HAMMERT, for
example)
. Battery charger
. Eye protection (if lye is used)
. Gloves (if lye is used)
What is electrolyte solution and how is it made?
CAUTION!
If household lye is used, ALWAYS add the lye to the
water. DO NOT add water to the lye!
Electrolyte solution is made from water with a soluble salt
(usually sodium carbinate or washing soda) added to the
water to enhance the conductance of electricity. Household
lye can be used, however eye protection and gloves should
be worn when handling the solution.
Add one tablespoon of soda to a gallon of water. If you
have trouble locating the washing soda, others have
reported success with baking soda.
NOTE: It is the current that cleans, not the solution; nothing
is gained by making a more concentrated solution.
How long does the solution last?
Forever, though the loosened rust will make it pretty
disgusting after a while. Evaporation and electrolysis will
deplete the water from the solution. Add water only to bring
the level back.
What about stainless/iron electrodes?
The electrode wants to be large (within reason); if possible,
larger than the object being cleaned. The iron electrode
works best if it "surrounds" the object to be cleaned, since
the cleaning is "line of sight" to a certain extent. An iron
electrode will be eaten away with time.
WARNING!
THE USE OF STAINLESS-STEEL ELECTRODES
PRODUCES TOXIC BY-PRODUCTS!
Stainless steel contains chromium. During
electrolysis, poisonous chromates are produced in
the electrolyte. Improper disposal of these by-products
(on the ground, down the drain, etc.) is illegal.
While some suggest using stainless steel as electrodes,
stating that it is not consumed and stays clean during
electrolysis. In reality, stainless steel is consumed, however
at a much slower rate, in the process poisonous hexavalent
chromate is produced. These compounds can cause severe
skin problems and ultimately, cancer.
How can you tell if you electrolyte contains chromates? If
the electrolyte turns yellow, that is a sign that it contains
chormates.
How do I connect the battery charger?
CAUTION!
POLARITY IS CRUCIAL!
Connecting the power source incorrectly will result
in damage to the work piece.
The iron electrode is connected to the positive (red) terminal.
The object being cleaned, to the negative (black). Submerge
the object, making sure you have good contact, which
can be difficult with heavily rusted objects. Get it backwards
and your object will be relentlessly eaten away! Make
connections on a part of your electrode that protrudes out
of the solution, or your clamps will erode rapidly.
How do I know if it is working?
Turn on the power. If your charger has a meter, be sure
some current is flowing. Again, on heavily rusted objects,
good electrical contact may be hard to make-it is essential.
Multi-part objects may not have good electrical connections
between them. Fine bubbles will rise from the object when
cleaning is in progress.
How long do I leave it?
The time depends on the size of the object and of the iron
electrode, and on the amount of rust. You will have to test
the object by trying to wipe off the rust. If it is not completely
clean, try again. Typical cleaning time for moderately rusted
objects is a few hours. Heavily rusted objects can be left
over night.
How do I get the rust off after I remove the object?
Rub the object under running water. A paper towel will
help. For heavily rusted objects, a plastic pot scrubber
can be used, carefully. Depending on the amount of original
rust, you may have to re-treat. The amount of mechanical
action will depend on the fragility of the object. Use your
discretion.
My object is too large to fit. Can the object be cleaned
in sections?
Yes. You can clean one end and then the other. Lap marks
should be minimal if the cleaning was thorough.
After the object is removed, what should be done
next?
The clean object will acquire surface rust very quickly, so
wipe it dry and dry further in a warm oven or with a hair
dryer/heat gun. You may want to apply a light oil or a coat
of wax to prevent further rusting.
Will electrolysis remove pitting?
No. It only operates on the rust in immediate contact with
unrusted metal. What's gone is gone. What will it look
like when I am done? The surface of rusted metal is left
black. Rusted pits are still pits. Shiny unrusted metal is
untouched.
What about nickle plating, paint, japanning and the
like?
Sound plating will not be affected. Plating under which
rust has penetrated will usually be lifted. The solution is
likely to soften most paints. Test with a drop of solution in
an inconspicuous place. Remove wood handles if possible
before treating.
How can I handle objects that are awkward to clean?
There are lots of variants: suspending an electrode inside
to clean a cavity in an object; using a sponge soaked in
the electrolyte with a backing electrode to clean spots on
large objects or things that shouldn't be submerged (like
with lots of wood)
How can I dispose of the electrolyte solution?
The electrolyte solution will last until it gets so disgusting
that you decide it is time for a fresh one. There is nothing
especially nasty about it, so disposal is not a major
concern, except you may not want all the crud in your
drains.
NOTE: If stainless steel has been used as an electrode,
special precautions must be followed when
disposing the solution.
If stainless steel has been used as an electrode, wear
rubber gloves when handling the solution or anything that
has come into contact with the solution. When disposing
of the solution, allow the liquid to evaporate and place the
power into a sealed container. Dispose of the power at
local "hazardous waste clean-up days".
Should metal containers be used?
CAUTION!
The use of metal containers is highly risky.
Chemicals in the solution can negatively react with
certain metals.
Galvanized metal can introduce zinc into the solution.
If lye is used in the solution, the lye will attack aluminum.
You may have problems with electrical shorts, etc. Stick
to plastic.
How can odd-shaped objects be cleaned?
Be ingenious. Plastic PVC pipe and eave troughs, wooden
boxes with poly vapor barrier, kids wading pools, etc.

 Il prodotto � sempre: Carbonato di Sodio - Soda Solvay -Na2CO3
[...]
ho letto tutto e comunque a met� l'autore prevede anche l'uso 
della lye, che � un altro modo di chiamare la potassa caustica:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lye
che � Idrossido di Potassio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_hydroxide
per� se leggi nel link seguente nella tavola riassuntiva a 
destra, nota che l'Idrossido di Sodio viene anche essa chiamato 
lye oltre che soda caustica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaOH
Grande � la confusione sotto il cielo!
Io penso che far� un po' di esperimenti partendo dai prodotti 
meno rischiosi. Oltretutto leggendo l'articolo mi sembra che sia 
possibile disossidare anche altri metalli. Sperimentare insomma: 
metter� occhiali, elmetto e guanti da sabbiatura.
E vedremo che succede.
Purtroppo mia madre, che era laureata in chimica � morta pochi 
mesi fa a 97 anni. Mi aveva comunque insegnato a stare sempre in 
guardia con i prodotti chimici: mi portava con lei nei laboratori 
dove lavorava quando ero piccolo.
ciao e grazie...e scambiamoci i risultati
Bung
Hic
In vino Veritas

 In chimica sono molto scarso.
Allora cerchiamo di orientarci...    :-)
*********
Loro citano "washing Soda.
Wiki dice: carbonato diSodio - Soda Solvay - Na2CO3
vedi: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_carbonate
*********
La Soda Caustica o Idrossido di Sodio - NaOH
Wiki la chiama: Sodium Hidroxide or Lye or NaOH
vedi: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide
*********
Il Bicarbonato di Sodio.
Wiki lo cita come:
Sodium bicarbonate or Baking Soda or NaHCO3
vedi: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bicarbonate
*********
Sodio Bisolfito   (ha tanti nomi) - Na2S2O5 -
comunque si usa con vini e alcolici...
vedi: 
http://www.everintec.it/it/documentazione/chimici/Sodio%20Metabisolfito.pdf
********

 Allora cerchiamo di orientarci...    :-)
[... grazie per tutte le informazioni]
intanto io cercando di "orientarmi" mi sono imbattutto nel 
Persolfato di Sodio e in alcuni interessanti filmati di YouTube 
tipo questo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RyHdjktcdE&feature=related
al minuto 5:10 si incontra questo nuovo personaggio e poi altri 
filmati che faranno venire idee strane a tanti di noi 
sicuramente.
Io certi americani quando parlano mica li capisco molto, per� le 
immagini aiutano.
ciao
Bung
Hic
In vino Veritas
et in dispensa venenum.