Newsgroup: it.fan.starwars
Titolo: Crouching Tiger, Phantom Menaces.....LUNGHETTO :-)

d'attenzione?
No, non credo che succederà qualcosa del genere. Sicuramente ci
potrebbe essere un aumento nella quantita di film importati, ma
sicuramente sarà difficile avere un altro "Crouching Tiger". 
E' esattamente quello che è successo quando il grande Sergio Leone
cominciò a produrre i suoi western. Sulla sua scia ne vennero prodotti
centinaia, ma solo pochi ebbero lo stesso successo.
Jinn©
...
*Presente su IFSW dal 1998
 (in maniera molto discontinua)
*Webmaster - Prequels Italian Headquarters
 
http://digilander.iol.it/swih/
 [ormai defunto]

 centinaia, ma solo pochi ebbero lo stesso successo.
Questi non sarebbero *prodotti sulla scia*... Ricorda che è CTHD l'ultimo
arrivato...
Parlavo dell'importazione di pellicole già esistenti, per sfruttare il
successo del genere.
Io ho solo un timore: che Ang Lee renda noioso e poco piacevole il film
sull'Incredibile Hulk che sto aspettando da anni e che gli è stato affidato
non so bene a quale titolo... D'accordo l'introspezione psicologica, ma
spero non me lo trasformi in un polpettone freudiano...
Ciao,
Beppe.
----------------------------------------------
Maestro White Jedi
Rappresentante in fase meditativa del Consiglio Jedi
Già venerabile Mentore del Cavaliere Jedi Mabou
Collegato telepaticamente al latitante Lazarus Long (Laz, torna!)
Collegato telepaticamente a Cinzia Nedjem (i suoi occhi sono i miei occhi)
Terepashii de Callista to tsunagatteiru (boku wa dokonimo me ga aru)
Collegato telepaticamente ad Alkaid (per vedere anche a 1000 parsec)
Collegato telepaticamente a Milady (nei più remoti avamposti imperiali)
Candido crine paterno del ribelle MattLeCiuk
Cronista della vita e delle opere del Maestro Rec-Ow Kentar
ICQ 20204285

spero non me lo trasformi in un polpettone freudiano...
Vedremo. Spero solo che la sceneggiatura sia interessante...
ma io non sono fanatico di Hulk come te....ehehehehehehe


 Anche SCARY MOVIE ha fatto una valanga di soldi...
Dě la verita Beppo...l'hai visto!  ;)
Ciao,
Shmi Skywalker
- sign alla toilette-

 Dì la verita Beppo...l'hai visto!  ;)
Certo che l'ho visto...
I trailer promettevano bene...
In assoluto il film più brutto dello scorso anno...


 ma io non sono fanatico di Hulk come te....ehehehehehehe
Nemmeno io ero un fan di Hulk... Non finché Peter David iniziò a scriverne
le storie, sviscerando tutte le potenzialità del personaggio...


Ho avuto modo di vedere "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" in lingua
originale (cinese mandarino) con sottotitoli in inglese.
Ieri mi č venuta voglia di rivederlo, doppiato in italiano (BLEAH)....
Ho letto svariate critiche al film, dalle piů entusiastiche alle piů
cattive. Non so se ne abbiate parlato da queste parti, ma non mi pare
di aver visto messagi a riguardo, a parte la classica recensione di
Beppe. 
In effetti l'argomento potrebbe essere considerato OT ad una prima
occhiata, ma da un paio di settimane a questa parte stavo scrivendo un
confronto tra il film di Ang Lee e Episode I, per poi giungere ad una
conclusione finale, ovvero che entrambi rappresentano le due facce
della stessa medaglia, e "Crouching Tiger" puň essere tranquillamente
considerato lo Star Wars del nuovo millennio.
Prima che qualcuno mi salti addosso dandomi del matto, vorrei chiarire
un punto fondamentale della questione: non voglio assolutamente dire
che Lee abbia copiato Lucas. I due film presentano molte similitudini
per un solo ed unico motivo: attingono entambi al bagaglio culturale
del mito, inteso come l'insieme di caratteristiche comuni alla
stragrande maggioranza delle saghe e dei racconti mitologici (e qui ci
schiaffo il nome che non puň assolutamente mancare) come vennero
brillantemente descritti da Joseph Campbell nel suo "The hero with a
thousand faces" [che Lucas adora].
Stranamente, anche se molte similitudini possono essere fatte tra la
trilogia e il film di Lee, le stesse diventano incredibilmente chiare
quando si prova a confrontare Episode I e "Crouching Tiger, Hidden
Dragon".  
Oggi, mentre cercavo ulteriori informazioni sul film di Ang Lee,  ho
provato a fare una ricerca abbastanza mirata su Internet.
*Stranamente* c'era qualcuno che aveva giŕ avuto la mia stessa idea.
L'autore di questo articolo considera anche alcuni elementi che io non
avevo preso in considerazione, mentre tralascia un confronto delle due
opere con un qualsiasi mito classico. Ma posso dire che in effetti mi
trovo abbastanza d'accordo con quanto segue.
Quindi, per la gioia e il tripudio di chi capisce l'inglese, ecco
l'articolo nella sua interezza...
Quelli che non parlano inglese si consolino con l'ultimo film di
Vanzina, pensando che č stato realizzato con denaro pubblico......
CROUCHING TIGER, PHANTOM MENACES...
------You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to
the Wudan. You believe it's this ... girl?"
Two of my favorite films of all time are CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN
DRAGON and STAR WARS EPISODE ONE: THE PHANTOM MENACE, probably due to
the fact that they have more in common than simply interchangeable
dialogue. Though the first was a critical darling while the latter -
with a few notable exceptions - was most certainly not, the two in
fact have something of a symbiotic relationship. Each are first and
foremost works of myth, and as such, are filled with hidden symbols
and deeper meanings. The Jedi tradition in George Lucas' space opera
has always liberally borrowed from Eastern warrior cultures, and
perhaps Ang Lee crafted his Chinese epic with this in mind. While I'm
sure most of this is coincidence, it wouldn't be too much to state
that CROUCHING TIGER is in fact Chinese cinema's answer to STAR WARS.
Just as STAR WARS takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far
away, CROUCHING TIGER takes place a long time ago in a China far, far
away. The realm of both is the realm of fairy tale, one operating in
the context of space fantasy, and the other in the supernatural wuxia
of Chinese legend. Just as STAR WARS is a reflection of George Lucas'
childhood days of watching science-fiction serials on television,
CROUCHING TIGER is Ang Lee's boyhood dream come true, inspired by the
kung-fu films and adventure novels he loved growing up. Interestingly
enough, the first STAR WARS film, A NEW HOPE, was made on almost the
same budget as CROUCHING TIGER, and while Lucas had to be put in the
hospital because of hypertension during filming, Lee almost suffered a
stroke. Each film had scenes in the desert, and while one was shot in
Tunisia and the other the Gobi, both were nearly blown off schedule by
sandstorms.
Yet few would argue that it wasn't worth it. Both filmmakers have a
genius for creating worlds that audiences simply want to exist in
forever.
Each part of a larger story, CROUCHING TIGER comes from the middle
volume of a story by Wang Du Lu, while THE PHANTOM MENACE is the first
episode in the prequel trilogy. The title of both films are expressing
the same thing, that of secret powers and veiled threats. Just as
CROUCHING TIGER is filled with phantom menaces, THE PHANTOM MENACE and
the Old Republic is teeming with crouching tigers and hidden dragons.
Both movies are in part social and political allegories, examining the
nature of status quos and the corruption they often harbor. It is
important to note that in each film, the threats are internal. And
likewise, they hold the potential for destruction as well as the
possibility of rebirth.
The similarities of the two films will be examined in terms of
characters and symbols, as well as stories and themes. It will
culminate in a discussion of the curious backlash both have weathered.
- Duel of the Fates -
CROUCHING TIGER begins with the renowned swordsman Li Mu Bai returning
from Wudan Mountain where he had been practicing meditation. He had
come to a place his master had never told him about, a place where he
was "surrounded by an endless sorrow." To those of us in the STAR WARS
generation, he had sensed a disturbance in the Force.
__________________________________________________
"I have a bad feeling about this." - Li Mu Bai
__________________________________________________
All STAR WARS films are famous for their mystical mentors, and in THE
PHANTOM MENACE we get Qui-Gon Jinn, a powerful and compassionate Jedi
who nevertheless follows his own path. His counterpart in CROUCHING
TIGER is Li Mu Bai, a character he has much in common with. Both are
powerful men and great warriors. Both are wise and noble. And both
exude a paternal aura, one that is calming and reassuring. No matter
the circumstance or threat, whether facing down battle droids or rogue
disciples, they each seem to be in perfect control all the time,
acting not out of anger or passion, but an inner harmony most could
only guess at.
The two also sense the destiny of others, whether it be the Chosen One
of STAR WARS or the Hidden Dragon of CROUCHING TIGER. Likewise, as
Qui-Gon has to go against the dictates of the Jedi Code and the
Council which upholds it, Li Mu Bai is willing to do the same to
ensure his own apprentice will be trained in the Wudan style. The Jedi
insist the Chosen One is too old, and the Wudan likewise might not
admit the Hidden Dragon because she is female.
Qui-Gon carries a green lightsaber, and Li Mu Bai brandishes the Green
Destiny sword, which glows and hums in the manner of a lightsaber.
Still, Qui-Gon is more of a maverick, following his heart, as opposed
to Li Mu Bai, bound by a Confucian code of duty and piety that
prevents him from living by his own conscience. And it prevents him
from telling Yu Shu Lien his love for her until it is too late.
STAR WARS has a history of strong women, and CROUCHING TIGER does
also. Yu Shu Lien, though a skilled fighter, is quite reluctant to
pursue a romantic relationship, especially one that might interfere
with social duty. In this respect, she is somewhat similar to Princess
Leia, and the way in which she treated Han Solo to begin with. Shu
Lien has perhaps more in common with Queen Amidala from THE PHANTOM
MENACE, a young woman torn between severity and compassion, a duality
that erupted in her two seperate characters.
Though he did not speak in pidgin English, nor was he
computer-generated, nor was he an amphibious alien, Master Bo was most
certainly the Jar Jar Binks of CROUCHING TIGER. He was a much more
restrained form of comic relief than the Gungan outcast, but in a film
of such graceful fighters, he was a complete klutz. In the first
battle he's engaged in, Master Bo hits himself in the head with his
own weapon ... three times.
At the other end of the spectrum is Lo, the desert bandit and romantic
hero. Though matching no characters in THE PHANTOM MENACE, he is very
analogous to Han Solo, the archetypal wisecracking mercenary with the
hidden heart of gold. He is crafted in the style of the classic
Western antihero.
__________________________________________________
"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Wudan. At last we will have
revenge." - Jade Fox
__________________________________________________
While working on concept designs for THE PHANTOM MENACE, Doug Chiang
drew several sketches of what he called a "Sith witch," an evil
counterpart to the Jedi. CROUCHING TIGER's Jade Fox, complete with her
dark robes and broad-rimmed hat, certainly looks the part of a witch.
Yet her role is not that simple.
Like Senator Palpatine, who will eventually rise and become Emperor,
Jade Fox employs deceit and subterfuge to undermine her enemies. She
has infiltrated Governor Yu's home and is operating right under his
nose, just as Palpatine has fooled the Old Republic and the Jedi. They
are both parasites, attempting to disrupt the symbiosis of their
relative societies.
Yet, whether in the STAR WARS universe or the wuxia world, always two
there are, a master and an apprentice. Anakin Skywalker and Jen Yu
come from different class systems - one is a slave, the other is
royalty - yet both are meant for something much greater. Each of these
perspective disciples are possessed of infinite potential, warring
contradictions, and special abilities that put them in a sphere far
from the plane of normal existence. Each will embrace the light yet
walk in the dark, both the substance of things feared and things hoped
for. At the end of both their sagas, they will have broken free from
the world of opposites, attaining union, bringing balance, and finally
achieving transcendence.
- Style and Substance -
When either George Lucas or Ang Lee set out to tell a story, they are
in fact telling about five at one time. They offer up social and
political commentary, epic love stories, mystical discourses on
mysterious higher powers, exotic fantasy settings, as well as amazing
stunts and action sequences.
As far back as his classic AMERICAN GRAFFITI, Lucas has said that it
was very appealing to tell "four or five stories at the same time."
Lee likewise knew that, largely because of his status as an auteur
filmmaker, when he set out on CROUCHING TIGER, he was going to have to
make a film that crossed boundaries. "I wanted drama, metaphor,
martial arts - I wanted everything," Lee said in a recent interview.
And everything he got.
As a result, both STAR WARS and CROUCHING TIGER are extraordinarily
difficult films to classify. They are too dynamic to be held down to a
single definition. One thing is certain, though - there's always
substance in the style.
For instance, much like stories themselves, the fights in THE PHANTOM
MENACE and CROUCHING TIGER are an extension of the characters and the
drama being played out. It is well-known that this is the case in
CROUCHING TIGER, for Lee has stated again and again that "the fighting
is never just kicking and punching, but is also a way for the
characters to express their unique situation and feelings." This is
evident in the hypnotic choreography of Yuen Wo Ping, and the battles
between the principle players. For instance, all the flying represents
an act of transcendence, as well as a desire for freedom, one of the
driving themes of the story.
Yet according to Nick Gilliard, stunt coordinator on THE PHANTOM
MENACE, the same was true for that film. "It's very subtle, and I
don't suppose anyone will even notice that sort of thing, but all the
fights are designed to tell a story," he once told an interviewer. One
of the most thrilling things about THE PHANTOM MENACE was getting to
see Jedi Knights in their prime, and the symbiosis between Qui-Gon and
Obi-Wan Kenobi was reflected in how smoothly they operated in the
battles, such as when Qui-Gon deflected battle droid fire in perfect
harmony with Obi-Wan who immediately would cut the droids down. The
saber-twirling and the lateral flips of Darth Maul speak of the ego
and arrogance of that character.
__________________________________________________
"I shall do what I must, Shu Lien." - Li Mu Bai
__________________________________________________
Lucas and Lee also have both been lucky with the sweeping scores
produced by their films. THE PHANTOM MENACE gives us the unforgettable
crescendo "Duel of the Fates," while CROUCHING TIGER is supplemented
by a sonorous love theme, along with delicate reed-flute work and
powerful percussion. Without John Williams, Tan Dun, and the
celebrated cellist Yo-Yo Ma, these would not be the same films. Lucas
and Lee employ them in like manners, allowing the music to carry the
emotional resonance of scenes that would be greatly understated
without them.
The two directors also use color to great effect, and - like the
fights - it tells a story as well. In THE PHANTOM MENACE, the lush,
green fields of Naboo stand in stark contrast to the colorless
Neimodian battle droids and the Trade Federation flagships. The red
Sith lightsabers and war paint are also indicative of the aggression
of the dark side. In CROUCHING TIGER, production and costume designer
Tim Yips confirms "Many hidden symbols appear within the same space.
We toned down colors to establish a sense of void, so subtle changes
of color and texture would become obvious." Shadows are also used to
evoke a sense of mystery or dread, such as those cloaking the ninja
thief in CROUCHING TIGER or Senator Palpatine when he is introduced on
the landing platform on Coruscant in THE PHANTOM MENACE.
Something also needs to be said for the acting styles both movies use.
Since both films revolve around serious characters such as Jedi and
Wudan fighters, Queens and Princesses, the acting is quite restrained,
some might even say severe. Qui-Gon Jinn and Li Mu Bai are very
serious characters, yet the actors still manage to convey a nobility
in their roles. The same could be said for Yu Shu Lien and Queen
Amidala, very understated roles, but ones with great power and
presence. Lee has mentioned it as a kind of "anti-drama" acting style,
one that calls little attention to itself, yet gives every look or
gesture heavy meaning. Articles about THE PHANTOM MENACE from
Space.com have referred to it as "ritual theater" acting, with the
emphasis on the sacred drama being performed rather than the
performances themselves. CROUCHING TIGER is certainly an example of
this - look no further than the first rooftop chase and the
ritualistic drums beating in the background.
__________________________________________________
"Don't worry. This hasn't been our day for warm welcomes." - Lo
__________________________________________________
But first and foremost, the style that THE PHANTOM MENACE and
CROUCHING TIGER share that set them apart from most films and make
them what they are is their fantasy trappings. Mythologist Joseph
Campbell wrote that "Naturalism is the death of art," and it is easy
to see why. There is little to any need for art that merely
regurgitates our day-to-day existence. Fantasy pieces break such
boundaries and become much more interesting and fascinating by giving
us the imaginative and the exotic, while at the same time offering up
metaphors that allow the audience to identify with the characters and
relate the stories to their own lives. Both THE PHANTOM MENACE and
CROUCHING TIGER has such a fantasy quality, and both open us up to the
possibilities of new worlds.
- Hide and Seek -
Whether the glistening gray cityscapes of Coruscant or the
mist-covered slopes of mountains in ancient China, the rich setting of
these films alone inform the audience they are not just watching a
movie, but rather are being taken on a journey.
Yet neither THE PHANTOM MENACE and CROUCHING TIGER is a simple
documentary. Rather, each are thoughtful films designed to examine
certain themes that have relevance to the human condition.
Lucas has noted several times that duality is a key theme in THE
PHANTOM MENACE. Most of the characters, such as Amidala who is often
disguised as the handmaiden Padme, and Darth Sidious as the kindly
Senator Palpatine, have dual sides to their personalities. Duality
also exists between the Jedi and the Sith, the Gungans and the Naboo,
and the light and dark sides of the Force. The characters walk in a
world of charity and greed, and innocence and experience.
Duality is often found informing much of CROUCHING TIGER. Many of its
characters have split sides to their identities, such as Jade Fox who
hides under the cover of Governess in the Yu household, and Jen Yu who
is a proper aristocrat by day and a Giang Hu fighter by night. There
is a strict dichotomy present between the society and the individual,
and between duty and desire. The polarities of age and youth - as well
as male and female - serve to solidify relationships as well as tear
them apart. Much of the film is filled with Taoist philosophy, which
of course produces the primary Eastern symbols of duality, yin and
yang. 
__________________________________________________
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." -
Southern Crane
__________________________________________________
George Lucas mentioned in his interview with Bill Moyers that another
theme of THE PHANTOM MENACE was "letting go." This is demonstrated
through the character of Anakin, who had to leave his mother Shmi
behind in order to become a Jedi and fulfill his greater destiny. In
CROUCHING TIGER, Li Mu Bai's late master told him that "only be
letting go can we possess what is truly real." Jen realizes this and
brings it into fruitation at the film's end, letting go of family and
society, her lover and her prized comb, and soars away in the clouds.
Self-transcendence is the ultimate goal of both of these mythic
heroes.
The need for balance likewise permeates both films. In THE PHANTOM
MENACE, the Force itself is unbalanced, a situation the Chosen One is
suppose to rectify. In CROUCHING TIGER, balance is something all the
characters seek. Those who can reduce inner conflict and live in
accord with the natural order are those who can fly the fartherest.
The need for balance is evident in both sets of couples.
- Curse of Success -
Oscar Wilde once wrote that "Society often forgives the criminal; it
never forgives the dreamer."
This seems to be the case, certainly for Lucas, and to a lesser
extent, for Lee as well.
Both films have been shown to be extremely compatible in both story as
well as the way in which the story is told. The look of each is quite
similar also. In both, there is a furious desert chase, one on
horseback, the other in supersonic pods. The desert is metaphoric of
the wild and the primitive, a place where crouching tigers and hidden
dragons are born. In both, there are stunning shots representing
ascension, one involving Jen walking up the stairs carved right into
Wudan Mountain, the other with Amidala rising up the side of her Theed
Palace via grappling hooks. In both, there are subtle examples of
baptism, such as Jen kneeling down under a hole in Fox's cave where
rain seeps through, or Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan submerging in a Naboo lake
and following Jar Jar to the underwater Gungan city. In both,
monk-warriors wear long robes that surround their entire bodies,
accenting the presence of the characters wearing them.
__________________________________________________
"You have been well trained, my young apprentice. They will be no
match for you." - Jade Fox
__________________________________________________
Yet THE PHANTOM MENACE was deemed a grand disappointment by many
critics, even as CROUCHING TIGER was held up as an example of
everything a film should be. Both were box office successes - the
latter being the highest-grossing foriegn film domestically, and the
former being the third highest grossing film of all time - and both
have developed their own fan bases.
But it is interesting to note that one of the film critics at
Entertainment Weekly has stated that the only real reason CROUCHING
TIGER has enjoyed the success that it has is because of its martial
arts scenes. He found the story to be a little "cold," and noted that
people didn't really take the characters to heart. Exchange the fight
scenes with special effects, and that's exactly the criticism leveled
at THE PHANTOM MENACE. Of course, CROUCHING TIGER had nothing of the
hype that was to be THE PHANTOM MENACE's blessing as well as its
curse.
It also wasn't part of a story or film series the West had been
exposed to, so the preconceptions weren't there to be overcome. That
will change next time around. Ang Lee already has someone working on a
script for a prequel detailing the early years of Li Mu Bai and Yu Shu
Lien, kind of a CROUCHING TIGER: EPISODE ONE. And already, the fanboys
on the internet are getting primed for the inevitable backlash,
claiming Lee is going to "cash-in and sell-out."
It's a shame a filmmaker can't make more than one film without being
criticized these days.
__________________________________________________
"And ... there's something about this girl." - Li Mu Bai
__________________________________________________
As for the critics, a man named George Lucas once said that "a special
effect without a story is a pretty boring thing." Another man named
Ang Lee made a similar statement about kung-fu without a story. No,
for those of us who love and understand these films, it is the story
and the characters, the themes and the metaphors, the nuances and the
subtleties that we love.
Otherwise, it is just a big light show with computer images or a bunch
of people bouncing off walls and beating each other up.


 "Crouching Tiger" può essere tranquillamente considerato lo Star Wars del
nuovo millennio.
Non poi così *tranquillamente*, almeno per il sottoscritto.
La pellicola di Lee non m'è piaciuta. Ma al di là di ciò, penso che la
differenza sostanziale tra SW e CTHD, stia nel fatto che del secondo tra
pochi anni solo pochi avranno memoria.
Non credo sia destinato a restare nell'immaginario collettivo quanto la saga
ideata da Lucas, e non mi pare esso sia un film innovativo tanto quanto SW
lo fu nel 1977.
Come ho già detto nella mia breve recensione al lungometraggio di Lee,
prodotti come questo vengono realizzati a Hong Kong già da svariati decenni:
l'unica fortuna di CTHD è quella di esser stato diretto da un autore
popolare anche in Occidente...
Cosa accadrà quando tutti gli altri wuxiapian arriveranno all'ovest, sulla
scia del successo di CTHD? Ci si renderà conto solo allora che tale
pellicola è una stilla in un oceano di prodotti ben più meritevoli
d'attenzione?
Ciao,


Beppe.
Brancaleone 
---------
Sign in fase di restauro...
---------
ICQ  #78894406
togli -> .NON_ROMPETE <- per scrivermi.

 minuti di speciale che ho visto).
Infatti come già dissi, il wire stunt work in questo film è malamente
realizzato...
La sequenza che citi del combattimento sulla sommità delle canne di bambù, è
assolutamente ridicola...
D'altro canto, ci sono scene splendidamente realizzate, come il primo duello
notturno (che fa ben sperare per il film sull'Uomo Ragno...).
