Majadiliano:True Jesus Church

message: Greetings Kipala! Could you please help me translate this article into Swahili?. It is based on this English article.  Please. Your help would be appreciated. -- Joseph, 11 March 2006
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replies: text: :Hi Joseph, I put your request on the side for a while and may look into it a bit later.  
2 reasons: 
* the historical part of the article looks pretty poor to me. "Historical background & Origins" shold not be translated into any language but be removed. If the beginning of the pentecostal movement in China is not clear to the author, it should be said so; article claims Apostolic Faith origin but linked church seems never to have worked in China.... 
Context of "three self"-movement is not understood; 
* for the time being I see more urgent topics in the very young swahili wiki than Chinese pentecostalism - especially if the articles has so obvious flaws
--Kipala 11:28, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- especially an artivle which leaves a lot of questionsmarks with me.
thread_title: True Jesus Church in Swahili, First Discussion

message: Hello Kipala! Thankyou for your response. 
In reply, I apologize for the vague church history and would like to clarify your questions and doubts concerning the Historical background and origins of this church:
*Not long after the Azusa Street Revival in 1906, the Pentecostal Movement soon spread very quickly and missionaries evangelised to many different countries. 
*By 1907, this news was preached to China and an Apostolic Faith Mission was established in Shanghai. 
*The missionaries emphasised on the importance of receiving the Holy Spirit which is evidenced through Speaking in tongues. 
*It was during this time when many Chinese christians believed and became their members (including Paul Wei and Ling-sheng Zhang whom later founded the True Jesus Church).
Why did Paul Wei and Ling-sheng Zhang decide to leave their original Pentecostal denominations and create an independent church? Here are the possible reasons:
*Between 1899 to 1901, the Boxer Rebellion broke out in China. It was an anti-western movement which aimed to exterminate all foreign influences in China. Christianity was seen by most people as a "Western religion" and therefore many churches were burnt down and christians were martyred. 
*Due to this incident, the Western missionaries started encouraged Chinese Christians to be Self Sufficient economically, Self Preaching, and Self Pastoring; even if it meant breaking away from their original Protestant/Pentecostal denominations. 
Another explanation was that:
replies: text: The early founders of this church believed, through the revelation of the Holy Spirit, that they were establishing a reformed church which would correct the past mistakes in doctrines and interpretations made by other denominations. They believed that all the teachings of the gospel must have biblical references to back it up in order to avoid misinterpretations or false teachings. 
I know that the Swahili wikipedia is still in its early stages  (with 288 articles) so I don't mind if you decide to help me translate the Swahili article later.  
I hope that I have answered most of your questions. -- Joseph, 12 March 2006.
Here are some facts:
*Today, this church has become globalised and now exists in forty five countries around six continents. Many of the new converts are non-Chinese.
*In fact, the True Jesus Church now exists in Tanzania, Uganda, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Kenya and seven other African countries. (Four of these countries use Swahili to some extent). The "Ten Basic Beliefs" of the church were actually translated into Swahili in the past few years.
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replies: text: :Well, the history part still looks pretty shaky to me.

text: :*Who of this Californian Apostolic Faith Movement went to China? The Apostolic Faith Church (the one which is linked in that article) themselves do not claim any missionaries at that stage as far as I could see from their webpages nor any to China at all (while they talk of other countries). These guys put on their church history website when they bought their first car -and they should not mention the huge step to China??? That one smells.

text: :*The three-self-idea was already an old hat by the time of the boxer rebellion and definitively not caused by it. The idea was formulated by Henry Venn, General Secretary of the Anglican CMS in the middle of the 19th century.

text: :*also other formulations are extremely vague; what is the meaning of "many Chinese christians believed"?? No figures around? Then better not try to create impressions - this is an encyclopedia and no handout for new believers.

text: :*the whole thing about Christian traditions before "True Jesus Church" should not be there. The Church of the East (please not "Nestorians"!!) left impact for centuries, the Catholics have left much more impact (and martyrs) than the group described in the article - there surely is no need to touch on those matters. Why is it that Pentecostals often seem not to be very precise and keen on facts when mentioning other ways of faith?

text: :Now this African connection makes it a candidate for sw.wiki. But again: why so few facts? Who started it when and how in Africa? Which are the "7 other African countries"? And how are they calling themselves in Swahili? --Kipala 14:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: True Jesus Church in Swahili, Second Discussion

message: :Hi Kipala! In answer to your question, the early founders of the True Jesus Church such as Ling-Sheng Zhang were once members of the Western Protestant and Pentecostal denominations which existed in China. Ling-Sheng Zhang joined the Apostolic Faith Mission in Shanghai. The Pastor of that church was Henderson. Ling-sheng then accepted the laying on of hands by Henderson. (Note: However Henderson's church later changed to the Church of God and later switched again to the Assembly of God). See also The Sabbath Movement in the True Jesus Church. 
replies: text: Also for your information, the other seven African countries in which the True Jeuss Church is now established are: Benin, Ghana, Liberia, Nigeria, South Africa, Sierra Leone and Togo. You can see A Chronology of the establishment of the True Jesus Church in various countries for more details.
I know that in regions (such as the Democratic Republic of the Congo) where French is the official language, the name of their church would be "Véritable Jésus Église"; whereas in English-speaking regions (eg. Tanzania, Kenya) their church name would be "True Jesus Church". However, I have never visited the African churches before, therefore I do not know what their Swahili name is.

text: Kipala, Would "Kimada Yesu Kanisa" or "Sahili Yesu Kanisa" be the correct Swahili title? Can you at least help me translate the "introduction part" and "subtitles" into Swahili?

text: Regards -- Joseph, 09:17 Monday 13 march 2006 (UTC)
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replies: text: :I am afraid I will not be helpful to you.

text: :*A) The name: I could not tell it. I am not a native English speaker but I think there are at least 2 ways to understand the name "true Jesus church". This results in different wordings depending which way you want to translate; moreover if you try to translate the ambiguity of the english expression there are more options. As there are groups of that type among Swahili speakers better get the name they use, it does not make much sense to coin a name from the distance and without communication.

text: :*B) The whole history part still looks so shaky I would not want to touch it. You never answered my question how come that the Aspostolic Faith Mission you linked the article to does not mention China??

text: :The link The Sabbath Movement in the True Jesus Church seems to give a fanciful and distorted translation of the Chang-An Monument text; the Church of the East (it is not correct but rather ignorant to call them Nestorians) has Sunday (the day of Christs resurreection) as day for its service not Saturday as claimed (that is by the way the biblical tradition Acts 20,7). Why do you refer to such obviously unreliable and cooked up pages?  --Kipala 20:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: True Jesus Church in Swahili, Third Discussion

message: Sijambo Kipala! I should have made myself more clearer - I neither asked you to look at "Chang-An Monument" nor the "Church of the East" texts. Instead, the following article below is what I originally intended for you to read:
Sabbath Movement in the True Jesus Church
"The Sabbath Movement within the True Jesus Church is connected with the Pentecostal Movement.  In September 1909 Lin-Shen Chang, a Presbyterian deacon in Shandong went to the Apostolic Faith Mission in Shanghai to study the Bible and prayed for the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands.  After staying there for two weeks he did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit so he came home and continued with his quest for another two months.  On the morning of December 21, 1909 he was baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues.  God also revealed to him the importance of observing the Seventh Day Sabbath.  He discussed the observance of the Sabbath with Pastor Henderson, an American missionary from the Apostolic Faith Mission.  In July 1916 Pastor Henderson also began to observe the Sabbath.  Later Pastor Henderson joined the Assembly of God and reverted to worship on Sunday.
Paul Wei was originally a member of the London Mission in Beijing.  He had serious illness that no doctor or medicine could heal him.  He went to the Apostolic Faith Mission and through prayer and laying of hands he was healed.  One day while he was praying at home he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues.  He sold his fabric store and started a house church.  The Holy Spirit impressed upon him to fast for 39 days.  While fasting Paul Wei received the revelation of the baptism into the Lord Jesus Christ with head bowed in the living water.  He began to preach using the name "International Reformed Jesus True Church".  In 1917 the Holy Spirit inspired the name to be changed to the True Jesus Church.  The  word "True" represents God; Jesus is the mediator between God and man.  The church is subject to Jesus and God.  
In the Spring of 1918 Ling-Sheng Zhang went to the True Jesus Church in Tiensin to meet Paul Wei.  Among other subjects they discussed the observance of the Seventh Day Sabbath.  Paul Wei agreed to keep the Sabbath and from that time onwards the Seventh Day Sabbath became one of the cardinal tenets of faith in the True Jesus Church".
thread_title: True Jesus Church in Swahili, Fourth discussion

message: Hii si makala ya Kiswahili, ila maneno machache yameyotafsiriwa. Matt Crypto 13:54, 21 Aprili 2006 (UTC)
Could you kindly help me translate this article: True Jesus Church into Swahili? It has only 6 lines and 10 short subtitles. Please 
-- Joseph, 26, Aprili (UTC)
replies: text: Sijui ukitaka kutafsiri makala hii, lakini nimeiteua kwa ufutaji kwa sasa kwa sababu ni makala ya Kiingereza. Matt Crypto 07:13, 26 Aprili 2006 (UTC)

text: Sasa ni makala ya Kiingereza tu. Napendekeza ifutwe. Matt Crypto 07:00, 26 Aprili 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: : Haya, Kipala ameitafsiri. Matt Crypto 18:55, 26 Aprili 2006 (UTC)

text: Asante Sana Kipala na Matt Crypto! Thankyou very very much both of you for the excellent quality article. I am tremendously grateful of your help. May God bless you and may Swahili wikipedia prosper! -- Joseph, 21:31 Wednesday 26 Aprili 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: : I'm afraid I can't take any credit: Kipala kindly did all of it. Matt Crypto 21:37, 26 Aprili 2006 (UTC)
(Kipala, sasa ninaona aibu kwa sababu nilipendekeza ifutwe...) Matt Crypto 21:43, 26 Aprili 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Aibu ni kwangu kwa sababu sijaandika alichotaka hata kidogo (ambacho kilifaa kufutwa kabisa) tena yeye haelewi kinachoandikwa sasa. Lakini baraka hazina hasara hata kama ni baraka kutoka kwa TJC, sivyo? --Kipala 21:49, 26 Aprili 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[True Jesus Church]] in Swahili, Fifth Discussion

message: Here are some photos of our church members in Africa:
*True Jesus Church in Ghana 
*True Jesus Church in Kenya 
*True Jesus Church in Tanzania
thread_title: TJC Africa Photos

message: I hereby give full credit and acknowledgement to the following translators: 
#Kipala - The Main Introductory sections.
#M. Michael - "Jesus" part.
#M. George - The ten subtitles
#J. Muchiri - "Holy Spirit", "Baptism", "Feet washing", "Holy Communion" and "Sabbath Day" parts.
#J. Ndekia - "Holy Bible" and "Second Coming of Jesus" parts.
#A. Massawe - "Salvation" and "church" part. 
All of whom have kindly helped me translate the article from the English version into the great and honourable Swahili language in accordance with the GNU Free Documentation License.
May the Lord remember their valiant, noble efforts and bless them! --Jose77 (majadiliano) 06:33, 6 Oktoba 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Translators' Credits and Full Acknowledgement