Diskussion:Juraj Dalmatinac

message: Jag tar bort POV-mallen eftersom det i artikeln framgår att hans namn och etniska ursprung är kontroversiellt. Det är lika mycket POV att påstå att han skulle vara av italiensk som kroatisk börd. Det är dock i allra högsta grad rimligt att artikelnamnet bär hans kroatiska namn av följande anledningar: 1. Han föddes i Zadar, en stad i dagens Kroatien. 2. Han var främst verksam i det som idag är Kroatien. 3. Kroatiska källor som citeras i litteratur världen över (inklusive svenska turistbroschyrer, böcker etc.) anger hans kroatiska namn. --Tromber 17 december 2011 kl. 15.43 (CET)
thread_title:  POV 

message: True names of this great Italian architect and sculptor are Giorgio Orsini, given at his birth. A wide array of English language references about life and work of this famous Renaissance artist can be queried by simple Google book search 
"Juraj Dalmatinac" is an invented name coming from Croatian writers of the second half of 19th century.
Here is a good selection of references:
↑ Monvmental Dalmatia by Adolfo Venturi, Ettore Pais, and Pompeo Molmenti; Alfieri & Lacroix, 1917, Biography on pages 63-69
↑ Storia dell'arte italiana: Il Trecento e il Quattrocento by Giuseppe Mazzariol, and Terisio Pignatti; Edizioni scolastiche Mondadori, 1961, page 138
↑ A holiday in Umbria: with an account of Urbino and the Cortegiano of Castiglione by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson, J. Murray, 1917, page 38
Giorgio Orsini died in 1475, and, so far as I can ascertain, at Sebenico, where he had a house on the doorway of which he carved the bear, the badge of his family, and the mallet and chisels and other implements of his craft2
...
2Illustrated in my Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, vol. i. p. 406.
↑ Delightful Dalmatia by Alice Lee Hornor Moqué; Funk & Wagnalls company, 1914, page 109
But alas, only the doorway now remains of the house which "Michelle Simeonich, a nobleman of Sebenico, sold to Giorgio Orsini for two hundred golden ducats of just and good weight", in the month of June and the year 1455. On the lintel of this old doorway is carved a bear, the heraldic emblem of the great house of Orsini - carved, no doubt, by George's own hand, over this door through which he must have passed so often.
↑ Paintings from the Marches: Gentile to Raphael by Pietro Zampetti; Phaidon, 1971, page 197
↑ Carlo Crivelli by R. W. Lightbown; Yale University Press, 2004 , page 3
↑ The Shores of the Adriatic by F. Hamilton Jackson; Echo Library, 2010, page 179
↑ Transactions of the Royal Institute of British Architects, Royal Institute of British Architects, 1887 page 176
↑ Storia dell'arte italiana, Volume 6 by Adolfo Venturi; U. Hoepli, 1908 page 1017
↑ The shores of the Adriatic, the Austrian side:the Küstenlande, Istria, and Dalmatia by Frederick Hamilton Jackson, E.P. Dutton, 1908 page 249
↑ Italy, a Phaidon cultural guide, Prentice-Hall, Jan 1, 1985, page 35
↑ The Edinburgh review: or critical journal, Volume 167 by Sydney Smith, Lord Francis Jeffrey Jeffrey, Macvey Napier, William Empson, Henry Reeve, Sir George Cornewall Lewis, Arthur Ralph Douglas Elliot (Hon.), Harold Cox, A. Constable, 1888, page 102
↑ Paolo Rumiz (2004-08-14). "Traù, fuga di mezzanotte". La Repubblica. Retrieved 2011-04-25.
↑ Gian Antonio Stella (2000-11-03). "Gli italiani d'Istria litigano con il Vaticano". Corriere della Sera. Retrieved 2011-04-25.--71.191.19.40 20 december 2011 kl. 02.44 (CET)
thread_title:  Note about "Juraj Dalmatinac" 

message: Tjafset om personens namn pågår på andra Wikipedior också. Här har vi två användare som krigar emot varandra. Vad mig anbelangar kvittar det vad personen döps till, då källorna är motstridiga och sökresultat på Google ger rätt i båda fallen. Här pågår en nationalistisk kamp som inte hör hemma på Wikipedia! Sett till andra språkversioner använder engelska WP Giorgio da Sebenico, italienska WP använder Giorgio di Matteo  (men även Giorgio di Sebenico och Giorgio Orsini), spanska WP använder bara Giorgio Orsini. Italienska wikipedia anger Giorgio Orsini (ofta kallad Giorgio da Sebenico och Giorgio Di Matteo), svenska WP anger Juraj Dalmatinac (det gör även flera andra). Olika WPor anger olika om nationalitet men detta går hand i hand med vilket namn man valt att kalla honom vid. Ska vi följa de stora WP-projekten eller ska vi hålla fast vid vårt namn som delas av bland annat ryska, ukrainska, serbiska wikipedia? dnm (d | b) 27 december 2011 kl. 01.44 (CET)
replies: text: Jag hoppas att du inte åsyftar mig när du skriver  ”här har vi två användare som krigar emot varandra”. Jag har hitintills gjort ett (1) inlägg i den svenska diskussionen och jag skulle inte vilja kalla det speciellt ”krigiskt”. Att italienska nationalister tar sig in på olika språkversioner av Wikipeida och redigerar i artiklar med anknytning till Kroatien är inget nytt. Rörande de andra språkversionerna av denna artikel vill jag bara uppmärksamma läsaren om att det är vår italienske ”vän” som skrivit i denna diskussion som verkar ha skapat den tyska och spanska artikeln och då använt det namn som h*n tycker är lämpligast - nämligen det italienska.  Mina argument till varför artikeln bör heta som den heter framgår sedan tidigare. --Tromber 27 december 2011 kl. 19.30 (CET)
replies: text: : Det krigiska står i artikelredigeringar, inte deltagande på diskussionssidan. IP-numret nedan lägger till en POV-mall och du tar bort den. Detta gör ni fram och tillbaka, vilket är ett redigeringskrig. Jag hoppas dock att diskussion kan ta vid och vi ska komma fram till ett svar på problemet jag beskrivit ovan. Tills vidare har jag lagt en begäran om halvlåsning av denna artikel så att det omedelbara redigeringskrigandet kan ta slut. dnm (d | b) 28 december 2011 kl. 03.44 (CET)
replies: text: :: IP-numret nedan har lagt till POV-mallen en (1) gång och jag har tagit bort den en gång (1). IP-numret har därefter fört in POV-mallen igen och jag har låtit den stå kvar. Att dramatisera dessa 3 redigeringar och kalla dem för  ”redigeringskrig” eller ”krigiska” är väl att ”slå på stora trummor”. Nåväl, nu är det ju inte det diskussionen handlar om. Liksom du anser jag att vi bör nå konsensus i denna fråga. I synnerhet med tanke på att vår italienska redigerare verkar brinna lite väl mycket för denna artikel och i det närmaste klottra ner den liksom diskussionsforumet med ytterst svaga källor och argument.  --Tromber 28 december 2011 kl. 17.17 (CET)

text: Response to my Swedish friends: Having just a Croatian name as the biography article title for a man who was an Italian at the Swedish Wikipedia, looks strange to me. What is wrong with saying that the artist's name is Giorgio Orsini, was called by his contemporaries Giorgio di Matteo, Giorgio da Sbenico, used Georgivs Dalmaticvs as his art name? Nationalism? I'd like to call it accuracy and credibility. If some people (Croats) invented a new name for a world-renown person (Orsini) four hundred years after his death, such an "achievement" shall go into a trivia section of the artist biography. As you know, Wikipedia is not a propaganda tool and the nationalism is not fighting for the accuracy.--71.163.236.199 27 december 2011 kl. 23.05 (CET)
replies: text: : I am very well aware of this problem. However, I hope that you won't put the POV template back again. The name is not a POV-problem in this case. I want you to focus your efforts at this talk page instead; present your case, why the name should be changed (with sources to back the claims). Regards, dnm (d | b) 28 december 2011 kl. 03.52 (CET)
**Then, the issue is quite simple. Here are the proofs of Orsini's identity:
**Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado, Volume 1  by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson; Clarendon press, 1887 
Page 406
In June 1455, Michele Simeonich, a noble of Sebenico, sold to Grigorio Orsini for 200 golden ducats 'of good and just weight' a house in the contrada of S. Gregorio, of which the position and boundaries are accurately defined in the act of the notary Manfredo Petrogna 1 To this spot we were guided by Monsignor Fosco, the bishop and historian of Sebenico, and there sure enough we saw a door-
Footnote
1 Vid. Annuario Dalmatico 1884, Article by Dr. Galvani
Page 407
way, on the lintel of which is carved, by the hand no doubt of Grigorio himself, the bear that symbolized his ancestral house of Orsini, while on each jamb, amid pendent bouquets of flowers, hang the mallet and chisels of his sculptor's art (vid. Fig. 25)
**Per trecentosettantasette anni: la gloria di Venezia nelle testimonianze artistiche della Dalmazia by Giuseppe Maria Pilo, Edizioni della Laguna, 2000, page 37
Giorgio di Matteo Dalmata - com'egli si firma - è probabilmente nativo di Zara e certamente veneziano di formazione ancorché molto noto come Giorgio da Sebenico per avervi a lungo operato e avervi creato con la cattedrale di San Giacomo il suo capolavoro, o come Giorgio Orsini, cognome usato dal figlio Paolo dal 1512, ufficialmente dal 1516, e confermato al nipote Giacomo nel 1540 dal governatore veneziano dela Dalmazia Valerio Orsini quando lo dichiara, anche con i progenitori "ex nostra stirpe Ursina".
**If translating the Italian text above, you'll learn that Orsini's descendatts, son Paolo and grandson Giacomo used the Orsini familiy name and that Venetian governor of Dalmatia, Valerio Orsini recognized both of them as descendants of the noble Italian House of Orsini. The Google search engine will give you ample evidence about Giorgio's nick names and about his art name. Keeping the false name "Juraj Dalmatinac" without any reason, (please, forgive me) is a bias.--71.163.236.199 28 december 2011 kl. 14.32 (CET)

text: :My dear Italian friend! Thank you for contributing in this article, however the issue is complicated. There are no reliable sources that could actually be used as a proof of this artist’s ethnicity.  Your sources are either old or non-scientific. We don’t even know what the artist called himself for sure. What we do know is that Slavic (Croatian) names on the eastern Adriatic in that time was Latinised. We also know that Venetians lived inside the city walls of Zara (todays Zadar). We also know that the Slavic element inside the city grew in time. Outside the city-walls, on the countryside, the population was exclusively Slavic. Our artist, Juraj or Giorgio, was born on the countryside and outside the city-walls. This is one of many reasons why it’s more likely that he was of Slavic rather than Venetian origin. However, since all sources are vague nobody can prove his real ethnicity; still we have to choose a name for this article. The thing is that in Swedish literature (travel-books for example) about this artist you’ll probably find the Croatian name for this man. This is one of many reasons why the Croatian name for this article should be used on Swedish Wikipeida. --Tromber 28 december 2011 kl. 17.55 (CET)
***Nothing is vague here, only your talk is completely baseless. Giuseppe Maria Pilo and Sir Thomas Graham Jackson are historians widely referenced and quoted. You are offering your idea who this man was, in spite of fact that there are documents (confirming his identity) dated back to the times when Orsini worked and lived, defeating your opinion at its inception. Who lived inside the city walls and who outside bears no importance nor there was any demographic census of that time delineating Slavs from non-Slavs.--71.163.236.199 28 december 2011 kl. 19.17 (CET)

text: :Don’t be funny! What do you mean by “nothing is vague here?” You know these sources and the supposed Italian ethnicity of Juraj/Giorgio are discussed not only on all Wikipeida-versions but also elsewhere over the world. The reason for this is that historians don’t know much about this artist except that he was born outside Zadar and died in Šibenik. As you can read in the English article there are only two known signatures of the artist, both in Latin; “hoc opus cuvarum fecit magister Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus” and “Georgius lapicida quondam Mathei de Jadra Civis Sibenicenis" (trans. "Georgius sculptor son of Matheus from Zadar citizen of Šibenik"). I don’t see the family-name Orsini in these signatures still you’re claiming he’s a member of the Orsini-family and that there are documents from this time confirming this? Wouldn’t it be strange for an “Orsini” to make a signature, pointing out he’s a son of Matheus (Matej in Croatian) from Zadar rather than using his family-name? Your source “Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado, Volume 1” was written in 1887. You can be sure that English-speaking Sir Thomas Graham Jackson were inspired by Italian “historians” and the unification (or rather creation) of Italy in 1861 when he confirmed that Juraj/Giorgio had “carved a bear that symbolized his ancestral house of Orsini.” It is obvious that Graham “assume” the bear symbolized “his” ancestral house. Is this carved bear a reliable source of the artists name and origin? --Tromber 28 december 2011 kl. 20.34 (CET)
***References are given. Documents are named. What you see or what you don't want to see has no importance here. You offer strong opinion only, not knowledge. All you have to refer is to zivotopis.hr. Your opinion about historians with world-renown academic background is at a level of soccer fan thinking. Sir Thomas Graham Jackson is world-renown architect and historian whose expertises cannot be questioned by anonymous Wikipedia user like you. I have no intention to waste my time further on you.--71.163.236.199 28 december 2011 kl. 21.47 (CET)
**** In 1441 Dalmatian architect and sculptor Georgius Mathei Dalmaticus (Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac) was charged with the resumption of work, which he continued until just before his death in 1473. Unesco.org (Latin and Croatian name used by Unesco). Another famous Croat is Juraj Dalmatinac (Georgius Mattei Dalmaticus, known as Giorgio Orsini in Italy, 15th century, born in Zadar). Southeasteurope.org (Croatian and Latin name used by international news-site - Dalmatinac is called a "Croat"). The Croatian name Juraj Dalmatinac is simply a translation of the artist's Latin or Latinazied name. "Giorgio" is in the same way an Italian translation of his Latin name. He himself has never used the surname Orsini. There is no evidence for this. Your sources don't say that he called himself Orsini or that he called himself "Giorgio". What you see or hallucinate don't has an importance here. And please, try to use sources that are not 150 years old.--Tromber 29 december 2011 kl. 00.31 (CET)
thread_title:  Namnet 

message: Hej, wikipedianer!
Jag har just ändrat 1 externa länkar på Juraj Dalmatinac. Kontrollera gärna mina ändringar. Om du har några frågor, eller vill be boten ignorera vissa länkar eller hela artikeln, läs frågor och svar för mer information. Jag har gjort följande ändringar:
*Lade till arkiv https://archive.is/20120525171502/http://www.zivotopis.hr/biografija/juraj-dalmatinac/ till http://www.zivotopis.hr/biografija/juraj-dalmatinac/
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Hälsningar.—InternetArchiveBot (Rapportera fel) 5 september 2017 kl. 20.37 (CEST)
thread_title:  Externa länkar ändrade