Diskutim:Pirro i Epirit

message: #pse Piro e jo Pirro?
#Fitorja nuk ka qene e bujshme sepse ai e humbi pothuaj gjithe ushtrine. Patriotizmin lejeni jashte enciklopedise.Arianiti 2006 Mars 1 06:37 (UTC)
replies: text: ad 1) si është i saktë emri? mua më kujtohet se në shkollë e kemi mësuar Piro po bon që unë e kam gabim se nuk jam aq i sigurtë. unë po e grissi artikullin Pirro e pastaj mundesh ta zhvendosish këtë krejt atje (nëse Pirro është emri i sakt) dhe kështu nuk i humb historia e redaktimeve. tung --bet_0 2006 Mars 1 10:45 (UTC)
replies: text: :Po masi që nuk jeni ju dy të sigurt, me siguri edhe një pjesë tjeter nuk është e sigurt. Zgjidhni njonen e tjetren leni #redirect. Kjo është mië për makinat gjurmuese të internetit.--Hipi Zhdripi 2006 Mars 1 14:01 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Pajtohem me propozimin Dan. Por ne vete artikullin emri duhet me qene korrekt. Nje historian e paska nje artikull ne shqiperia.com dhe albasoul.com ku e perdore Pirro (Pirrua). Ardian Klosi (profesioni: gazetar, analist?) te Shekulli e perdore Piro (Pirua nuk shkone). Piro eshte emri nderkombetar keshtu qe ndoshta mund te ceket si verzion i emrit ne fjaline e pare mirepo ne fjalit tjera te mbahet standardi i shqipes Pirro. Bet 0, autori i atij libri eshte shqiptar apo maqedon? Arianiti
replies: text: :::Çka mendon për krejt artikullin Pirro i Epirit me e bë?? pastaj Piro dhe Pirro me i bë me redirekt përderisa nuk lind naj artikull tjetër për këto termat e tjerë. tung —bet_0 2006 Mars 1 21:18 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Nuk është problem i madhë. Kjo është për ata që e studioin shqipen. Po më duket se njëra formë duhet me qenë e drejtë por tjetra përdoret jo vetëm në këtë po në shumë raste kur ka të bëjë për historin (bile sa komë pa deri qitashti) e mos vetë për biologji ku për një lule i gjenë 1 qind emra. Edhe gjuhët tjera që kanë dhanë miliona para, nuk ja kanë arrit të i seleksionoin. Në këtë rast Pirro, Pirrua (sipas shkenctarve klasik) është drejt sipas të shkencëtarve të rinjë (për të bërë më të kapëshem për të rinin) përdoren edhe sipas modes. Në fillim deri sa artikulli nuk është "përmbyllur" mendojë se duhet bërë si është më së miri për të rinjët (amerikançe) mandej mund të rregullohet kadal dale. Që të dy anët i kanë shqiptuar nga latinishtja--Hipi Zhdripi 2006 Mars 2 03:54 (UTC)

message: Following the blind and unexplained reverts and removals of my sources by several accounts, even by some of the admins of this project, I present the following sources stating unambiguously that Pyrrhus and the Molossians were Greeks. I am quite curious to hear what anyone's excuse is for not including them.
thread_title:  Embarrassing behavior 

message: *Smith, William. A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography. "The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron, but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting." 
* Errington, Malcolm R. A History of Macedonia. University of California Press, 1993, ISBN 0520063198. "The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." 
* Borza, Eugene N. (1992). In the Shadow of Olympus: the Emergence of Macedon (Revised Edition). Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press.  "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the 'northwest' Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes." "[...]a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians." "The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus)." 
*Crew, P. Mack (1982). The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3 (Second Edition). Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.  "That the Molossians[...]spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke Greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the Greek colonists of Asia Minor, but became demonstrable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking." 
*Hammond, NGL (1994). Philip of Macedon. London, UK: Duckworth.  "Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect)." 
   
=== Not greek ===
so   have a look it is not thrue  that it was  greek
Argument 1
298 - 272 a.C.. Dal 306 a.C. fu re della sua gente, i Molossi, tribù preponderante dell'Epiro che dichiarava di discendere da Achille e dai Macedoni nei periodi 288-285 a.C. e 273-272 a.C. La storia lo accredita come uno dei principali antagonisti di Roma.
Argument 2
Die Molosser waren, neben den Chaoniern und den Thesprotern, der dritte große Stamm, aus denen sich in antiker Zeit die Bevölkerung von Epirus zusammensetzte.
Aus geographischen Gründen ebenso wie wegen des ergiebigen Ackerbaus entwickelte sich in Epirus relativ früh ein Gesamtstaat, dessen Könige aus dem Stamm der Molosser bis hin zu Pyrrhus (ca. 319/18 bis 272 v. Chr.) in der Geschichte durchaus eine Bedeutung haben. Der illyrische König Bardyllis unterwarf Epirus im Jahre 385 v. Ch. und der vorher vertriebene molossische König Alketas I. aus der Dynastie der Aiakiden bestieg wieder den Thron.
Argument 3
Pyrrhus verbrachte seine Kindheit am Hof des illyrischen Königs Glaukias, der ihm Asyl gewährt und ihn auch adoptiert hatte. Im Alter von 12 Jahren wurde er von seinem Adoptivvater nach Epirus zurückgeführt und als König der Molosser eingesetzt. (why not  to some  greeks ...???) 
Literatur  [Bearbeiten]
Hansjörg Frommer: Die Illyrer. 4000 Jahre europäischer Geschichte. Vom 3. Jahrtausend bis zum Beginn der Neuzeit. Karlsruhe 1988, ISBN 3-88190-100-0 
Von „http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molosser_(Volk)“
--217.24.240.8 31 Dhjetor 2008 16:50 (CET)
*1 What is the source of that? Be advised that WP cannot be used as a source for WP.
*2 Die Passage sagt nicht dass die Mollosser Illyrer waren und auch nicht dass sie nicht Griechisch waren. Es sag nur dass der illyrische Koenig Bardyllis Epirus underwarfte. It does not say they were not Greeks, just that Alketas, a Greek name btw but that is secondary, ascended to the throne with the Illyrians' help. Again though the relevant passage from the book itself would be usefull since WP cannot as discussed be used as a source for WP.
*3 Because he was allied with the Illyrian king, not a Greek one.  But that is moot, the source still doesn't say he was Illyrian or not Greek.
So basically there are 0 sources claiming the Molossians were Illyrian or shqiponze and several from places like Cambridge explicitly stating they spoke Greek and others again explicitly saying they were Greek. Ich denke Sie Unrecht haben. In any event, happy New Year and happy holidays. See you next year!--Xenovatis 31 Dhjetor 2008 18:44 (CET)
thread_title: Molossians

message: so   have a look it is not thrue  that it was  greek
Argument 1
298 - 272 a.C.. Dal 306 a.C. fu re della sua gente, i Molossi, tribù preponderante dell'Epiro che dichiarava di discendere da Achille e dai Macedoni nei periodi 288-285 a.C. e 273-272 a.C. La storia lo accredita come uno dei principali antagonisti di Roma.
Argument 2
Die Molosser waren, neben den Chaoniern und den Thesprotern, der dritte große Stamm, aus denen sich in antiker Zeit die Bevölkerung von Epirus zusammensetzte.
Aus geographischen Gründen ebenso wie wegen des ergiebigen Ackerbaus entwickelte sich in Epirus relativ früh ein Gesamtstaat, dessen Könige aus dem Stamm der Molosser bis hin zu Pyrrhus (ca. 319/18 bis 272 v. Chr.) in der Geschichte durchaus eine Bedeutung haben. Der illyrische König Bardyllis unterwarf Epirus im Jahre 385 v. Ch. und der vorher vertriebene molossische König Alketas I. aus der Dynastie der Aiakiden bestieg wieder den Thron.
Argument 3
Pyrrhus verbrachte seine Kindheit am Hof des illyrischen Königs Glaukias, der ihm Asyl gewährt und ihn auch adoptiert hatte. Im Alter von 12 Jahren wurde er von seinem Adoptivvater nach Epirus zurückgeführt und als König der Molosser eingesetzt. (why not  to some  greeks ...???) 
Literatur  [Bearbeiten]
Hansjörg Frommer: Die Illyrer. 4000 Jahre europäischer Geschichte. Vom 3. Jahrtausend bis zum Beginn der Neuzeit. Karlsruhe 1988, ISBN 3-88190-100-0 
Von „http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molosser_(Volk)“
--217.24.240.8 31 Dhjetor 2008 16:50 (CET)
*1 What is the source of that? Be advised that WP cannot be used as a source for WP.
*2 Die Passage sagt nicht dass die Mollosser Illyrer waren und auch nicht dass sie nicht Griechisch waren. Es sag nur dass der illyrische Koenig Bardyllis Epirus underwarfte. It does not say they were not Greeks, just that Alketas, a Greek name btw but that is secondary, ascended to the throne with the Illyrians' help. Again though the relevant passage from the book itself would be usefull since WP cannot as discussed be used as a source for WP.
*3 Because he was allied with the Illyrian king, not a Greek one.  But that is moot, the source still doesn't say he was Illyrian or not Greek.
So basically there are 0 sources claiming the Molossians were Illyrian or shqiponze and several from places like Cambridge explicitly stating they spoke Greek and others again explicitly saying they were Greek. Ich denke Sie Unrecht haben. In any event, happy New Year and happy holidays. See you next year!--Xenovatis 31 Dhjetor 2008 18:44 (CET)
thread_title:  Not greek 

message: * Jones, Archer (2001). The art of war in the Western world. Urbana: University of Illinois Press. p. 32. ISBN 0-252-06966-8. "The particulars of these with Pyrrhus of the Greek kingdom of Epirus"  
*Plutarch, Parallel Lives (Βίοι Παράλληλοι), Pyrrhus (Greek) McCall, Jeremiah B. (2002). The cavalry of the Roman republic: cavalry combat and elite reputations in the Middle and Late Republic. New York: Routledge. pp. 32. ISBN 0-415-25713-1. "At Asculum the Roman cavalry matched Pyrrhus' Greek riders."  Saylor, Steven (2007). Roma: the novel of ancient Rome. New York: St. Martin's Press. pp. 332. ISBN 0-312-32831-1. "the Greek adventurer king Pyrrhus"  Feeney, Denis (2007). Caesar's calendar: ancient time and the beginnings of history. Berkeley: University of California Press. pp. 38. ISBN 0-520-25119-9. "...before Pyrrhus no contact with Greece after Pyrrhus Rome and Greece in tandem"  Bernstein, Alvin H.; Murray, Williamson; Knox, MacGregor (1996). The Making of strategy: rulers, states, and war. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-56627-4. "Pyrrhus king of Epirus invaded Italy with a formidable Greek profeesional hoplite army"  Christopher Mackay (2004). Ancient Rome: a military and political history. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. pp. 49. ISBN 0-521-80918-5. "Pyrrhus' Greek troops were tactically superior to the Roman army and he was never defeated in battle."  
* a b "Epirus -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia". www.britannica.com. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/190156/Epirus. Retrieved on 2008-12-25. "In the 5th century Epirus was still on the periphery of the Greek world. To the 5th-century historian Thucydides, the Epirotes were “barbarians.” The only Epirotes regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, who were members of the Molossian royal house and claimed descent from Achilles. From about 370 bc on, the Aeacidae were able to expand the Molossian state by incorporating tribes from the rival groups in Epirus. The Aeacidae’s efforts gained impetus from the marriage of Philip II of Macedon to their princess, Olympias. In 334, while Alexander the Great, son of Philip and Olympias, crossed into Asia, his uncle, the Molossian ruler Alexander, attacked southern Italy, where he was eventually checked by Rome and killed in battle in about 331. Upon Alexander the Molossian’s death, the Epirote tribes formed a coalition on an equal basis but with the Molossian king in command of their military forces. The greatest Molossian king of this coalition was Pyrrhus (319–272); he and his son Alexander II ruled as far south as Acarnania and to central Albania in the north. Pyrrhus’ military adventures overstrained his state’s military resources, but they also brought great prosperity to Epirus. He built a magnificent stone theatre at Dodona and a new suburb at Ambracia (now Árta), which he made his capital."  
*a b c d e f g Pyrrhus, Britannica, 2008, O.Ed. Pyrrhus: Main: king of Hellenistic Epirus whose costly military successes against Macedonia and Rome gave rise to the phrase “Pyrrhic victory.” His Memoirs and books on the art of war were quoted and praised by many ancient authors, including Cicero. 
* Borza, Eugene N. (1992). In the Shadow of Olympus: the Emergence of Macedon (Revised Edition). Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press.  "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the 'northwest' Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes." "[...]a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians." "The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus)." 
*Reconstructing Western Civilization: Irreverent Essays on Antiquity - page 211, by Barbara Sher Tinsley, ISBN 1575910950 - 2006 - "The Greek King Pyrrhus of Epirus"...."Pyrrhus wrote books on military strategy. Cicero considered one of his treaties on warfare a very fine work." 
--Xenovatis 31 Dhjetor 2008 11:23 (CET)
thread_title:  Pyrrhus