Обсуждение:Галеас

message: Откуда известно, что ударение на первом слоге? В итальянском будет Galeázza. - Abc82 12:06, 14 апреля 2010 (UTC)
Галеацца, так по-итальянски.
thread_title:  
Ударение
 (решено) 

message: Sorry for the English, but I can't write good enough Russian. Please note that "galleass" is not some general term for any ship that can be propelled with oars. I've been working on :en:galley since 2010 and have written a lot on archipelago frigates like the :en:hemmema. A galleass is a fairly specific type of ship, not just a general term for a sailing vessel with oared capabilities.
Peter Isotalo (обс) 08:12, 30 августа 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly, your understanding of Russian may be even worse than you think of it, because this article does NOT contain such a claim in any of its parts, including those sections deleted by you. You may create a separate article for oared frigates if you like, but do not vandalize this one. The sections you deleted do not cover galeasses per se, but - just as it clearly states in the very first line of the section - were dedicated to ship types which conceptually resembled Mediterranean galeasses, still correctly referring to them with specific terms - hemmema, udema, turuma, oared frigates etc. Again - this article does not introduce the word "galeass" as some kind of generic term for ALL hybrid oar/sail propulsion ships - it just contains the descriptions of resembling ship types from the Baltic Sea area because there is not yet a separate article specifically dedicated to them. However, it must be noted that an oared frigate is definitely a subclass of a galeass, that is confirmed by a plethora of reliable sources, including Orazio Curti (Modelli Navalli), etc. E.g., O. Curti directly calls the oared frigates "lighter breed of a galeass". The question is, of course, if the type of ship described by Curti etc. has any direct connection to the Baltic oared frigates, or the latter were just that - frigates supplied with oars, without any connection to Mediterranean vessels (which seems improbable, considering that Mediterranean type galleys were used in the same area for centuries). However, deleting large sections of the article and referring to them as "nonsense" is not the way to go if you want to shed some light on this question, which eludes me as well. And no, en-wiki articles IMHO do not contain the necessary information to make any definite conclusions on this matter, e.g. on the genesis of the British ("Charles") of Swedish oared frigates. DL24 (обс) 13:51, 30 августа 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: :The article doesn't make the outright claims that all oared sailing hybrids are galleasses, but it goes to great lengths in attempting to establish such an association. And it does so without citing a single relevant source. That's what I referred to as nonsense. Just like the term "galley" has historically been used about a lot of vessels, including simple oared frigates like the Charles Galley, there is a fairly precise definition of what a galley is today. If not, this article is about a word, not a type of ship.

text: :No literature that I've come across have made such strong associations between vessels like the turumas and hemmemas on the one hand and galleasses on the other. A small sailing ship based on seagoing frigates is no more a "subclass of a galleass" than it is a subclass of a galley. For the turuma/hemmemas in particular it's even less relevant because they were most likely inspired by xebecs. There were Russian-built, Baltic-style шебеки (contemporary term) in the late 18th century. They were so similar to captured Swedish turumas and hemmemas that they were simply called "shebecks" in the Russian Baltic fleet, even after new designs were built that mimicked the Swedish vessels. Galleasses were developed from Mediterranean galleys and share characteristics in their construction (example). Especially the length to size-ratios are similar. Oared frigates are quite different in their construction.

text: :This article also makes very speculative claims about vessels like the ships «Апостол Петр» and «Апостол Павел». According to Tredrea & Sozaev (2010) Russian Aarships in the Age of Sail, 1696-1860 (p. 263) they were "oared frigates" launched in 1696 and very similar to the Charles Galley. 15 oars, 700 tons displacement.

text: :Also note that the article assumes that galeas (one "s") are galleass are the same thing. The former is a type of small northern trading vessel while the other is the more well-known large development of galleys. If necessary, split the article. Again, the article should not be about a word.

text: :I'm not going to engage into discussion here since I can't pursue properly in Russian, but the article obviously needs improvement, and templates pointing that out. It definitely needs to cut out the personal speculation. This is hardly an ideal source, but even that website refers to гребные фрегаты, not galleasses. And please don't rely on passing references from model hobbyists, no matter how famous. This is about naval and maritime history. Go by what actual historians are saying, not your own thoughts on the matter. If you can't prove the actual connection, then it shouldn't be implied either.

text: :Peter Isotalo (обс) 16:50, 30 августа 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Oared frigates