Dyskusja:Wielka Synagoga w Warszawie

message: Co to są roboty eklektyczne? Urzyfk@
replies: text: Poprawione, Dzięki. --Hiuppo (zagadaj) 23:30, 5 wrz 2007 (CEST)
thread_title:  Roboty eklektyczne 

message: Wg angielskiego filmu dokumentalnego z Youtube silny nalot niemiecki był wymierzony w Żydów przy okazji jakiegoś święta we wrześniu.--Revery (dyskusja) 11:51, 27 lut 2009 (CET)
thread_title:  Bombardowania we wrześniu 1939 roku 

message: W artykule znajduje się informacja, że projekty Synagogi wystawiono w "gmachu Zachęty". Budynek znany dziś pod tą nazwą, do którego prowadzi link, nie istniał w 1873 roku (został ukończony 30 lat później). Może chodzi o ówczesną siedzibę Towarzystwa Zachęty Sztuk Pięknych?
thread_title:  Gmach Zachęty 

message: Hey, sorry for the English and for bothering you. My main field of interest on en.wiki is Jewish denominations, and I must note this synagogue was not Reform. It was built by "progressive Jews" with a small P - secularized, modern, religiously lax, acculturated - but did not adhere to :en:Progressive Judaism, which is a very specific thing. Here's a quote from Polin. Studies in Polish Jewry - Volume 21 - p. 427: The Great Synagogue on Tlomackie Street was built in 1878... Services in the synagogue were slightly Reform-oriented, to the extent that the Orthodox tradition allowed. Sermons were read in Polish. There was a choir, but it was made up of men only. There was an organ as well, but it was played only during weddings. The synagogue was attended mainly by the liberal intelligentsia and the middle and upper layers of society. Certainly modified ritual, but nothing doctrinal. Reform Judaism with a capital R is not about aesthetics, it's about theology. They did not even pray in the vernacular rather than Hebrew (which is the most uncontroversial aspect of Reform prayer), let alone adopted a Reform prayer rite (cf. :en:Reform Judaism#Liturgy). 
No such thing existed in Eastern Europe until the 1990's. As noted by the world's leading historian of Reform Judaism, Michael A. Meyer (Judaism Within Modernity: Essays on Jewish History and Religion, Wayne State University Press, 2001. pp. 280-281):
synagogue reform (with a small R) in Eastern Europe was not modeled on the German Reform movement; (with a capital R) it was associated with German Jewry as a whole. The :en:Hamburg Temple, with its modified prayerbook and its worship service conducted partly in the vernacular, did not serve as an example, nor did the liturgical reforms which were penetrating more gradually into other German Jewish communities... Reformers in Eastern Europe drew on those elements which had become the common reform of German Judaism, applying no less to the service conducted in the Hamburg community synagogue under the supervision of (the very, very Orthodox) Hakham :de:Isaak Bernays than to the separatist temple of that city. Little wonder that the East European congregations which introduced reforms were not thought of as reforming but simply as re-creating a German synagogue.
On the other hand, I would certainly not call the Tłomackie synagogue Orthodox, which is also a relative designation and denotes the traditionalist side of the Jewish spectrum, apart from theology (in Western Europe, the Orthodox synagogues are more modern than the one in the article, but in the east, Orthodoxy is represented by Hasidim etc.). I think calling it "modern" and "acculturated" is the best solution. A helpful analogy is a Catholic church somewhere in America with altar girls and a super-liberal priest who doesn't really uphold dogma. Is it properly Catholic? Nope. But it doesn't make it Protestant. AddMore-III (dyskusja) 09:04, 1 gru 2016 (CET)
* Dalsza dyskusja: :en:User talk:AddMore-III#Your edits to Reform synagogues. Poeticbent talk 17:53, 1 gru 2016 (CET)
Oh, and a direct reference of Meyer to interwar Poland (Response to Modernity, p. 339.): A few congregations in various cities modified their religious services, yet ideological reform did not take hold. By the end of the century eastern Jewish communities were divided among competing factions of Orthodox, nationalists, and socialists. The larger cities of interwar Poland did have modernized synagogues that were called "progressive" or "German". Services there were decorous and featured an edifying sermon in Polish or German. AddMore-III (dyskusja) 17:27, 2 gru 2016 (CET)
* To nieporozumienie. Sprawa Polskich synagog dotyczy architektury sakralnej, a nie reformy ideologicznej. Moja odpowiedź po angielsku jest na stronie użytkownika. Oto cytat z Muzeum POLIN w jezyku polskim (ten sam cytat w tłumaczeniu jest pod powyższym linkiem): W XVIII w. związane z haskalą dążenia reformatorskie objęły również architekturę s. Przez analogię do innych wyznań zwolennicy reform widzieli w s. świątynię. Układ s. reformowanych upodobnił się do zborów ewangelickich z rodzajem prezbiterium dla starszych gminy, aron ha-kodesz w apsydzie, bimą przed aron ha-kodesz, ławkami dla wiernych zwróconymi w ich stronę oraz z emporami dla kobiet otwartymi do wnętrza sali; obok sal podłużnych powstawały również sale centr.; pierwsze s. postępowe powstały w Niemczech (Seesen, 1810; Kassel, 1836–39; Drezno, 1840). Przez cały XIX w. szukano dla s. zarówno tradycyjnych, jak i reformowanych, właściwej formy arch., angażowano wybitnych architektów; wznoszono coraz większe budowle (z wieżami, często wieńczone kopułami) i stosowano bogaty eklekt. (orientalny, neorom., neorenes., klasycyst.) wystrój budowli (m.in. Lwów — Synagoga Postępowa, Kraków — Tempel, Warszawa — Wielka Synagoga na Tłomackiem, Stanisławów, Łódź); gminy ortodoksyjne nadal budowały s. murowane i drewn. o układach tradycyjnych. W XX w. architektura synagogalna pozostawała pod wpływem aktualnie rozwijających się kierunków arch., początkowo w Niemczech, następnie w Izraelu oraz w USA, gdzie w końcu XX w. powstały m.in. s. inspirowane drewn. s. polskimi.  (Maria i Kazimierz Piechotkowie, POLIN). Poeticbent talk 06:12, 3 gru 2016 (CET)
*To potwierdzają inne źródła dotyczące architektury Warszawy. Wycofuję wprowadzane zmiany, naruszające zresztą WP:WER . Boston9 (dyskusja) 09:22, 3 gru 2016 (CET)
replies: text: ::Let me get this straight. You claim it's about architecture? I don't care how you call these synagogues - reform, progressive, whatever - you can't link it to Reform Judaism, which those guys at the museum know nothing about. You compare some "virtual sztetl" site, the author of which mixes Haskalah with Reform and is clearly clueless ("Orthodox synagogues continued to be built from bricks and wood"? what!?), to the world's top historian on the subject, Michael A. Meyer? There was no Reform Judaism in Poland until after communism, period. AddMore-III (dyskusja) 10:19, 3 gru 2016 (CET)
thread_title:  Not Reform 

message: Another attempt at helping this pl.wiki not to make a baseless connection between the Tłomackie  synagogue and Reform Judaism. This time, an article from Polin. Studies in Polish Jewry, which explains the exact meaning of the adjective postępowy in Polish-Jewish religious context. There was some religious reform, but this does not equal Reform Judaism. And BTW, for an introduction to what Reform Judaism is, please see the list of attributes here, pp 351-353. The Tłomackie could only account for the first and most basic among the ten key principles of Reform prayer, that of shortening the (non-essential parts of the) liturgy, but this measure was undertaken by avowedly Orthodox synagogues, as well. AddMore-III (dyskusja) 22:15, 12 paź 2019 (CEST)
thread_title:  Not Reform 2 

message: Sorry for the English. The synagogue is described as a Reform synagogue, linking to Judaizm reformowany. Yet it never was. Reform Judaism is a distinct movement which introduced doctrinal changes, on which you may read in the English article about it, removing core elements from the liturgy. The Warsaw synagogue applied superficial aesthetic reform (no capital R), like many other modern synagogues, which was not in line with strict traditionalism but was certainly not capital-R Reform. I have provided reliable sources at the talkpage, and I'll add one of them here:
Polin. Studies in Polish Jewry - Volume 21 - p. 427: The Great Synagogue on Tlomackie Street was built in 1878... Services in the synagogue were slightly Reform-oriented, to the extent that the Orthodox tradition allowed. There was a choir, but it was made up of men only. There was an organ as well, but it was played only during weddings.
AddMore-III (dyskusja) 14:51, 7 wrz 2022 (CEST)
thread_title:  z [[Wikipedia:Zgłoś błąd w artykule]]