ဆွေးနွေးချက်:ဗဟိုစာမျက်နှာ/မော်ကွန်း ၁

message: Something about the localization of my.wikipedia.org.
As I saw there is still something that we can improve about the Myanmar Wikipedia localization.
So can any one start a new page that list all the word to be localized.
Then every one can participate in the localization. And form a standard for computer language to Myanmar Language.
I will try to install Myanmar Keyboard Layout and type in Myanmar to show what we can do about current localization.
And important thing is please state clear on the Main page that which font will be used for my.wikipedia.org. If it's possible provide a direct link that we can download font, it will be better that input software is included.--72.167.37.227 ၂၂:၁၁, ၉ စက်​တင်​ဘာ​ ၂၀၀၇
thread_title: Localization

message: According to my understanding, sub-domain selection for Myanmar language should be:
*  BRM, if to follow Language scope and ITU.
*  MM or MMR, if to follow Country wide and ISO.
*  MYMR, if to follow alike computing operating system.
People believe that selection of My is tune for MyMyanmar company branding. 
This is also one reason for people shunned away Myanmar Wikipedia. Okisan 02:19, 11 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty much Wikimedia standard to use the ISO 639-1 language codes for Wikipedia subdomains. In Burmese language's case, it's MY. (If we were to follow ISO 3166 codes, the Malay Wikipedia would have this subdomain, but since the Malay language's ISO 639-1 code is ms, it uses that subdomain.) Refer here for a list of Wikimedia wikis. All the subdomains follow ISO 639-1 unless that specified language does not have a -1 code, which means the -2 code is used. Just to assure you it's not some grand marketing scheme. Remember, one of the golden rules of Wikipedia: Assume good faith--Hintha 04:29, 11 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :I understand now. Then fine. I am very sorry. Okisan 06:09, 12 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: It is not true that "my" is chosen for "MyMyanmar". "my" extension was chosen by someone since before 2005. I have requested to change it at the start of year 2006 to "mm" but I didn't get any response for it. --Zawthet 01:41, 23 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 
Dispute
 on Myanmar Wikipedia sub-domain selection

message: Evertype informed us that Requests for adminship is a fake and will not be counted. Eagerred new percipent like sithu015 and Okisan feel defeated. Faking should be avoided in Myanmar Wikipedia. Kyawtun 02:04, 11 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fake Admin Proposal

message: Due to accusation regarding abuse of Myanmar Wikipedia, which severely damage Wikipedia content (see below session), I will request css changes timestamp to make available public. This will help users to judge transparently the validity of Evertype's excuse as it is for testing purpose (see below session) against commercial advantage. Okisan 13:18, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything on Wikipedia is made available publicly. Go to MediaWiki:Common.css and click on မှတ်​တမ်း​ and you will get the timestamps you are looking for. Hope that helps. --ကိုရာဝီ 09:33, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Thanks. Ko Ravi! Okisan 12:44, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for timestamp of css changes

message: MyMyanmar company brands all of their products starting with My. sysop MyMyanmar intentionally use MyWikipedia for their branding in my.wikipedia.org. Some of my relative in Yangon think Wikipedia as a product of MyMyanmar company. Okisan 13:26, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please desist from making personal attacks. Evertype 09:39, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :With all due respect, I avoided personal unnecessarily. Here only for unambiguity reason. Kindly return the favor. Please discuss main issue.  Okisan 13:00, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Myanmar Wikipedia as MyWikipedia branding

message: I was horrify to find that Sithu015 have been bribed for sysop position by translating Jesus Christ's speech. I am quite neutral to any religious. But sysop is not to be recruited in that way. We have to see their behavior for long time by looking at their contribution. Technological sysop is also required during the first time. Over 200 articles of one year life time of Wikipedia is very bad situation. Frankly this wiki will not grow if we don't make a change in sysop clique. Okisan 12:05, 12 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bribing sysop position

message: Hi, As a reader I'm still confuse what font you are using for MyWikipeida. Though there is a little problem in Myanmar Unicode. Even in our country we don't have an official standard coding. I know for an admin like you picking one of many coding system for Mywikipedia is hard. Because once you have chosen one it's not easy to change again. But as for me there is a lot of Myanmar internet user is using ZawGyi coding system. And a lot of user can type in ZawGyi very well so it will be helpful to MyWikipedia. Since MyWikipedia need user all over the world to come and edit. So please state clear that which Unicoding system will we use on the main page.(If it's already been stated on the main page, state it more clearer because I'm still confuse which font you are using.)
  
ps: a little idea about the Unicode we just have to set a standard and attract some professional to Mywikipedia and they can give us advice then.
Good luck, James(Username:Myanmar) (2007-09-11)
replies: text: The reason you were seeing garbled scripts is because you have most likely set default to ZawGyi. You need to download one of the fonts mentioned in the Main Page and set that as default font, until CSS is changed to so that these fonts are included. You should have received this kind of reply much earlier. Sorry. If you as still around please come back, we need you. You should have been able to see stuff much earlier. --ကိုရာဝီ 11:43, 8 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: We are working on it! It is not simple.. and we want to stay in synch with the International Standard. We are therefore preparing a free font that everyone can use here. Please be patient. Evertype 16:40, 8 အောက်​တို​ဘာ​ 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Evertype, please do try to guide users who came here to talk about garbled fonts. Please don't turn them away, please dont' ask them to wait because they need not wait. Many thanks.--ကိုရာဝီ 11:43, 8 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :I know the latest Burmese unicode is still a work in progress. I just wanted to add my voice of support for standardizing it asap. Right now, there seems to be a confusing mixture of different font types (and so garbled pages). I hope to see this resolved soon and be able to read/contribute in articles. Keep up the good work. - Boe Tu
replies: text: ::As for as I know there are only two types or encoding here. Unicode 5.1 and Unicode 4.1. If it's garbled a lot, than it means that you are using a font that is not based on anyone of these, and most likely you were using ZawGyi. Please download a Unicode font, set that as default. MyOne firefox extension is also an interesting product. Pages here are either based on Unicode 4.1 or 5.1 encoding, therefore if you are using 5.1 things should be relatively OK. --ကိုရာဝီ 11:43, 8 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: ::I also understand that you are trying to use the Unicode compliant font, but the fonts that are currently used are not widely known or used in the Myanmar internet communities.  Zawgyi which is not a fully Unicode compliant font, has been very widely used among Myanmar blogs as you may all be aware by now.  I think it will attract more contributors if a widely known font is used for these Wiki entries.  I myself would like to contribute but I am having a hard time trying to use the recommended font.  I also noticed some spelling errors (like the way Suu is spelled in Myanmar for Aung San Suu Kyi), and I think careful attention needs to be paid on these.  Just sharing my thoughts! Cheers, G
replies: text: :::Hello! Myanmar Unicode standard has been troubled with luck of wide use, partly due to limitation of standard itself and font availability. However Unicode 5.1 released on April 4, 2008 is matured and for the time being two Unicode 5.1 fonts (Parabaik, padauk) are available in redistributable open license (three if include yet-to-release Myanmar3 font). Padauk has uncorrect rendering in some petseint (killers). I strongly believe wikipedia should adopt Unicode 5.1 with cascading all three fonts in css (Parabaik, Myanmar3, padauk). IE has some quirk in recoginzing Myanmar script regin of unicode causing luck of font failback substitute even if font is available in the user system. Zawgyi font will still be widely used on the internet and most web site will continue to use it despite Unicode 5.1 standard font. Kyaw Tun, http://www.zawgyi.org
replies: text: ::::There is nothing to confuse about Unicode 5.1 encoding.All above are rubbish. Just have one of Unicode 5.1 complaint fonts (Padauk 2.2.2, Myanmar 3 , Parabaik Sans) and get rid of other junk fonts that in the past intended to spoil and only worked for the detrimental to the development of Burmese standard font. The worst came from MyMyanmar and followed by Zawgyi and the like fonts.They were first released with association to Unicode to deceive users who are mostly ignorant. Later when the truth were exposed they dropped the word Unicode from their fonts to confuse users thinking that Zawgyi has garbage system, as evidenced as in at the start of this page. When these sub,non-standard fonts see that their days are numbered they started smearing campaign to confound more as above writing from Zawgyi group. -- Hman Tan June 28 , 2008.
replies: text: :::::I am one of the authors of the Unicode Standard and I am one of the people who solved the Unicode 4.1 problems with the new encoding model that we now have in Unicode 5.1. I find what Hman Tan has said here to be uncivil and inappropriate. Evertype 14:33, 28 ဇွန်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::It's true that Zawgyi/MyMyanmar are pseudo-Unicode fonts that put glyphs in private areas of Unicode, but this is largely due to the problems of computers displaying Unicode-compliant fonts like Padauk. I'm not completely sure but from what I've seen, Padauk OT appears to work on the Mozilla Firefox 3.0 browser.--Hintha 02:47, 30 ဇွန်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::I don't know which "MyMyanmar" font you are referring to, but Htoo and I are working on one now (Anawrahta) which is completely Unicode compliant. Zawgyi is not Unicode compliant, and their website even says that they are not planning to support Unicode 5.1. The Hoskens' Padauk font should be Unicode compliant, though I do not know if it has yet all the additional minority letters. Evertype 14:23, 30 ဇွန်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  standard for Mywikipeida 

message: Where is the move-page function on the Wikipedia pages, to make it easier to move pages with outdated Unicode spelling (such as this: ). When I tried moving the January article to its correct spelling (Special:MovePage/ဇန္‌နဝာရီ), the page gave me an access error. Other Wikipedias are not locked like this. By the way, I also noticed a quirk. When the user is not logged into the Myanmar Wikipedia, the tabs like "page", "discussion", etc. appear in Burmese, but as soon as the user logs in, they are in English. --Hintha 20:21, 30 ဇွန်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind, I guess you have to be auto-confirmed.--Hintha 08:53, 6 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move page function 

message: Hello, Any one, MyMyanmar did biased action on editing my.wikipedia.org Common.css file and monobook.css file.  pls check here for [his contribution]. He wrote as:
 /** CSS placed here will be applied to all skins */
 
 body {
   font-family: Anawrahta, "Anawrahta [mymm]", "MyMyanmar Unicode", Padauk, Myanmar2, Code2000, Arial;
 }
 
 /* for testing only yet*
The First two fonts (Anawrahta, "Anawrahta [mymm]") are under developed by Technomation Studio and Evertype. There are still missing some Myanmar Unicode Font(s) like Myanmar3. Please see Myanmar Wiki Users  discussion on that issues. Considering monopoly practice of them. They do not describe license for their fonts and they didn't allow to edit those file by users. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parabaik • (talk) • (contribitions) 06:34, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please sign your posts by writing ~~~~ at the end. It is true that MyMyanmar made those changes to the CSS and that he did it quite some time ago. He was experimenting and I do not believe that his experiment has caused any harm. The Myanmar Wikipedia is not user-friendly yet as regards script support. Your comments that the experiments were "biased" and that he, or I, are engaging in "monopoly practice" do not Assume Good Faith and are, I believe, based in your own long-standing feud against him. The Myanmar Wikipedia is no place for anger or personal attacks. Indeed as Buddhists we know that anger and personal attacks have little place in our lives. Please relax. With regard to the question of "which fonts", this is something that needs looking into. Criteria need to be given, and candidate fonts need to be examined and tested. That includes Myanmar3 as well as Anawrahta. Evertype 07:01, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I never against him or you. I just defending for burmese people. My anger raised up by you and your partners dispute efforts wikipedia. We have Five Precepts in buddha teaching. Abstain from lying!!! is one of them. I like that sentences; One lies in order to get the profit or take advantage of others. However, those who lie never feel secured themselves. You didn't found simple solution for my argument. It might be solution that amend recent Myanmar Unicode Fonts in CSS File and unprotecting CSS file as well. Let them go and surf Myanmar Wikipedia with favourite Fonts. Parabaik 17:24, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::You're not against him or against me, but you've spent two days on three different forums making a great deal of noise, evidently because you misunderstood something written in the MyanmarTimes, and now here you are calling me a liar? (That would be a personal attack from you against me.) I haven't "lied" about a single thing regarding my activity to try to turn this Wikipedia around and make it a place where people can write articles. I'm not trying to take "get the profit or take advantage of others", but it is vexing to see everything you have said here and on the other two forums about this -- all based on your own misunderstanding of a couple of sentences in a newspaper article I had nothing to do with. I attempted several times to explain things to you, as calmly as I could. Would you like to help? How about doing some translation on this wiki? I can point you to some articles which could benefit from translation. In the meanwhile, I and some others are trying to fix the technical problems and do a cleanup here. Some of that has to do with fonts. You can rail against us if you wish, but we're going to proceed to do it. Nobody else has. Evertype 20:16, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::You are not lying, but your partner did and even made false public statement. You and your partner's fake new Unicode Project has recently been discovered. The fake project intended to monopolise Myanmar Font using in Wikipedia hype outdating current Unicode 5.1 standard that you love. Please reply here or in Myanmar IT Pros where it was origniate. I am waiting your nice reply. I really like to hear your another professional joke. Previous joke (The CSS causes inconvenience, which is not harm.) is really funny. Okisan 00:47, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :: Keep Low-Tone Michael. Don't think serious by giving one precepts from buddha teaching. I swear I'm not attacking you guys. Why you joined and much consider in our discussion. We are on-going talk in Wrong Media Statement by Myanmar Times. Yes, keep going technical problem. Don't try to raise your hands for our public forums. Can you ignore wrong statement even if you know true. cheers.

text: :That may be biased, but I think they're testing their font on the website. It's not as if people who don't have the font can see it. Right now it's not even worthwhile to contribute to the Myanmar Wikipedia because it's such a mess (the home page says it all). Adding comments to images doesn't allow for natural phrase breakage, and there are problems with zero width spacing, that interferes with wikilinks. And there are a lot of articles that require Unicode 4 to Unicode 5.1 conversions, and there's no available program for this (Kanaung Converter doesn't work for Unicode to Unicode). Filtering and searching through the rubble (Special:AllPages) makes it all the more frustrating. The Myanmar Wikipedia has a long way to standardize everything to get to even the level of the Laotian Wikipedia (). Hopefully the situation improves soon. --Hintha 07:16, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::The CSS does cause harm. Internet Explorer users with Myanmar3 or Parbaik should be able to read Myanmar Wikipedia and even contribute to it. I do not really see any reason not to include Myanamar3 or Parabaik. In other words we are turning away would be users. Currently your CSS includes Anawratha font which is not yet published, and MyMyanmar which is not available as a font only/separate download. If Anawratha is indeed just 40% complete than it's presence in a Wikipedia CSS file would be hard to justify, except for 'testing' purposes, on the other hand there are fonts that are more than 40% complete that should be 'tested' as well. It does seem to hinder growth. Testing fonts on Wikipedia will hinder growth. --ကိုရာဝီ 13:30, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::The CSS causes inconvenience, which is not harm. :-) I agree that compliant fonts should be listed in the CSS. We have not tested all the fonts, but are preparing a suite of tests. In the meantime, those two fonts could certainly be added to the CSS. We should be strict about conformance. Myanmar script fonts should (in my opinion) support all encoded characters properly -- not just those which are used in the Burmese language. Evertype 17:29, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Please do not make a joke to a new contributor. We are serious. Okisan 10:36, 11 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: MyMyanmar fonts support true-Unicode since the unicode was 4.1. And yet, they support 5.1 in later releases. There're two font in the package namely "MyMyanmar" and "MyMyanmar Unicode" and non-conformant characters are only included in "MyMyanmar" font because we need another simple encoding system to support on the devices (which their processors cannot handle advanced text rendering) we produce our software on. Please see www.messx.net. "MyMyanmar Unicode" font is totally unicode compliant. And we are only one who provide FREE and usable Input Method (and yet we clearly describe what is Unicode and what is non-conformant encoding writing with MyInput). Other releases are supposed to use Keyman (which is costly) as far as I know. We also agreed to provide default option to remove ZWSP syllabel breaking in our input method as it can harm this Wikipedia Links. As you can already see in the CSS file, we did not put our font to be default and only one (only by doing this, you can say we are monopolizing). I wrote that CSS a long time ago and at that time, I evaluated all the font I added (I did not see Myanmar3 being released that time) and added "Anawratha" as it will never harm everyone and it will make us very easy to find errors when we see the font in blocks of paragraphs. Later on, as more and more characters are added and voted till now, we are not yet ready to release Anawrahta yet. We can release Anawrahta after Unicode meeting at HongKong in August. The reason of developing Anawrahta is that there is NO FONT that is MULTIPLATFORM and that SUPPORT ALL THE CHARACTER AND LANGUAGES that latest Unicode supports. And it will be FREE. Here is the table of fonts with their features.
Font NameEncodingSmart Font InstructionsSupported PlatformLicense
Myanmar1Unicode 4.1OTWindowsGPL Ver.2
Myanmar2Unicode 5.1preOTWindowsGPL Ver.2
Myanmar3Unicode 5.1, post-5.1?OTWindowsGPL Ver.2
PadaukUnicode 5.1, post-5.1?OT,Graphite Windows,Linux,AdobeCS2,3?OFLed/GPLed
ParabaikUnicode 5.1(recommended in my.openoffice.org)OTWindowsOFLed/GPLed
MyMyanmarUnicode5.1, XPartial (which is pseudo-unicode encoding)OTWindowsFREE
MyMyanmar UnicodeUnicode 5.1OTWindowsFREE
Anawrahta (being developed)Unicode 5.1, post-5.1AAT,OT,GraphiteWindows,Mac,Linux,AdobeCS2,3?FREE
ZawGyiVERY HARMFUL PSEUDO-UNICODE EncodingNANAFREE
MyaZediHARMFUL PSEUDO-UNICODE EncodingNANANOT FREE
BITPSEUDO-UNICODE EncodingNANAFREE

text: I would disagree that Parabaik (Ngwe Tun) have good will on this Wikipedia by saying and keeping us out of this Wikipedia and everything we are working for. As Ngwe Tun is the developer who monopolized the very first HARMFUL Pseudo-Unicode font named MyaZedi.
replies: text: :Please sign your posts by writing ~~~~ at the end. Please put VERY HARMFUL in comment column because people will confuse it as some kind of encoding scheme. AdobeCS2 is not a platform, it is one of the thousand of software. Please careful about writeup in public forum. Take care. Okisan 13:47, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :This is an off-topic regarding ZWSP syllable breaking in MyMyanmar's talk. I believe we better don't store ZWSP in wikipedia database, but instead insert ZWSP during HTML rendering at server side for nice line break and search engine indexing. It is pretty fast since it is single regular expression. PHP is known to slow in regular expression parsing, but not to the extend of noticeable delay for most articles here. Apart from performance consideration, publishing syllable with ZWSP content make search engine perform better. However it also has obvious side consequence of ZWSP extra add-in. Okisan 01:10, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :Dear MyMyanmar, Please change your column title Avability to License (Beware of wrong spelling too). Since all of these fonts are available, Availability is not meaningful. Please check your words with dictionary before you post. Please consult with grammar expert if you have problem in choosing appropriate usage. Please extreme care with your sysop work. Enjoy. Okisan 23:37, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :Dear MyMyanmar, We have noticed the word Unicode 5.2 was removed from the table for Anawrahta font. Please keep it as originally or strike out according to our wiki talk etiquette. We are even proud if you did it. You got very supportive members here. Don't afraid. Okisan 23:48, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :Well, If you have good will on this Wikipedia, be focused on conversion. Even sysops in my.wikipedia.org, you didn't check and repair any spelling errors. I've upgraded OpenFont Licensed Parabaik as MyaZedi based. I've informed to my customer to use Parabaik as their default font and migrate from MyaZedi. Of Course, I'm very proud on MyaZedi what I'm being created/introduced Unicode and Fonts concept to Myanmar people. You and other people followed the my guide line. It's my mile stone. Parabaik 17:45, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: I will never grant CSS access to users except Sysops as I have duty to protect Wikipedia from a mess like ZawGyi and MyaZedi. If anyone think I should include a font in that CSS, please do not hesitate to tell me on my talk page. I will evaluate them and add to CSS. And I'm adding Myanmar3 now ;) Day by day, I am exhausted by removing personal blog-like texts that users wrote on home pages, articles with ZawGyi, MyaZedi. I'm sure there are more and more people here like ကိုရာဝီ and Hintha can help this wikipedia beyond we can reach. MyMyanmar 17:14, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Thanks you for explain your plan for removing wikipedia articles. Ko Sei Thu reported losing his contents in Myanmar Wikipedia User Discussion on July 5 @ MM Infotech. However please be note it is just not possible to remove history and user account. Good luck. Okisan 13:57, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :Yes explaining to contributors using complaint encoding is a tough thing to do. We will need a help page for this. In the meantime the CSS should start with 5.1 fonts and fall back gracefully. Currently Myanamra2 is first, followed by Myanmar3. Myanamr3 should come earlier. We want a lot of people to be able to take a look at Myanmar Wikipedia. Hence include all the fonts that you know are Unicode 5.1, if not it would be misinterpreted as a bias and even if it's wrong we just can not afford to loose readers. Many thanks. The CSS should be ordered this way <Unicode 5.1 Fonts> <Unicode 4.1 Fonts> <Code2000> <Arial>. If the order is wrong, and users happen to have both fonts such as Myanmar2 and Myanamr3, than Wikipedia would be rendered on their browsers with Myanmar2 even though they have Myanamar3. Hence we need to optimize it so that we can push and have pretty good mileage. Hope you understand. Thanks. --ကိုရာဝီ 12:06, 8 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :"I will never grant CSS access to users": It's pointed to say monopolized manner. I will never try to make as Sysops.Parabaik 17:46, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Ordinary users should never have access to the CSS. They can do great damage there. MyMyanmar was one of the first Admins on this Wiki. Evertype 19:01, 7 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Please discuss the main issue. Frankly regulars in this Myanmar Wikipedia do not discuss the main issue, but do the teaching. Okisan 10:34, 11 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
===Sysop MyMyanmar is not appropriate for the admin duty===
The growth of Myanmar Wikipedia content is abnormally slow and some reported losing their contribution in Myanmar Wikipedia. Nobody read well Myanmar Wikipedia font right from the beginning. I suggested to use Unicode 5.1 font as soon as FOSS font is available. There is rapid conversion font convector tool commonly used in Myanmar community know as Kanaung if necessary. Many users show disappointed about Wikipedia font problem openly in public forum (NT, MZ, MMITPros). Andrew Cunningham, an internationalization expert, commented "The current CSS rules are sub-optimal and detrimental to the uptake of Unicode 5.1 solutions by end users." MyMyanmar company also has issue with using Wikipedia in their branding. The commercial interest in Myanmar Wikipedia by sysop MyMyanmar is indeed true. To foster content growth and good public facing of Myanmar Wikipedia, I strongly request sysos MyMyanmar for de-adminship. Okisan 11:05, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)3

text: The growth of the Myanmar Wikipedia is hindered by several factors, two namely, the never-ending bickering on which Unicode fonts to use and the lack of a mechanism to shift this Wikipedia itself to Unicode 5.1 standards. If the users here actually all started fruitfully contributing content to the Wikipedia or helping sort things out in a constructive manner, this Wikipedia community would be far better off. --Hintha 05:20, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :I am very sorry. I do not accept your argument. People now know that low update of mm.wikipedia.org is due to putting commerical font upfrond that user don't have. If sysops put Unicode 5.1 fonts as soon as available, many people will happily contribute. You can goggle Myanmar recepie for making mon hin gar, you will get more than 100 ways of doing it in blog. How come you say people are not contributing on the web for free? As Andrew Cunningham said current sub-optimal CSS rules make users turn aways. I strongly believe sysop MyMyanmar should be demotion immediately, otherwise we will have to elevate the issue. Now he is tuning away from user question for clarification. Please listen to user's outcry out there. Please maintain Wikipedia good public face. Okisan 05:47, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I never said "people are not contributing on the web for free." What I said was that users need to begin constructive work on this Wikipedia. Users are the the foundation of Wikipedias, as we know. Nothing happens overnight. I personally don't know what problems users are facing in editing this Wikipedia, because I personally tested this Wikipedia on IE7, IE8, Firefox 3.0, Firefox 3.0 Minefield, Safari on two operating systems (XP Home and Vista Ultimate) and found no problems in rendering, as long as the fonts recommended on the homepage are installed. The rendering turns out as so: :Image:စာမျက်နာကိုပြင်​ဆင်​ရန်​.png. The only font that works in rendering Unicode successfully on IE currently is Padauk (Myanmar3 and Parabaik are not recognized as Myanmar fonts on IE--check it out yourself when you go to INTERNET OPTIONS, on the GENERAL tab click FONTS button, scroll down to Myanmar and look at which fonts are recognized), which is the primary recommendation on the homepage. --Hintha 06:50, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Sorry if I made you confuse. What I mean there is thriving people welling to contribute in my.wikipedia.org. A lot. Yeah could be low quality. But anyways we first focus quantity than quality. That I know for sure because I am forum master and build many Myanmar web sites. I also know how tough to upgrade from 4.1 to 5.1 and also browser problem. Myanmar web user particularly rich user of Firefox (46%). Please also note input system is also important to get rich contributor. Also for a bad reason, there are many people nothing but Zawgyi font. Okisan 07:18, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: ::By the way, if you want to edit your personal monobook.css for the Myanmar Wikipedia, go to User:Okisan/monobook.css to test things out and help us deliberate. --Hintha 06:52, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Thanks. I did. It is great! Really great! it works both IE 7.0 and Firefox 3.0. Here is my favorite CSS rules body { font-family: Parabaik, Myanmar3, Padauk, Arial; } that I recommend for my.wikipedia.org for long. I hope sysop listen. Okisan 07:08, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
===sysop MyMyanmar does not understand copyright===
Quoting from MyMyanmar's conversation below (If you think you have to read MyMyanmar's font license to use, then don't use it.), it can be conclude that he is very poor in Copyright knowledge. He is inappropriate for managing Wikipedia contents. Okisan 08:24, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: The statutory requirement for copyright is the presence of a copyright symbol, the name of the holder and the year. I have not seen any requirements for License to be present in these laws. License are usually added when the terms of the basic laws are not suitable for the product owner; they are never added to make life easier for the user. They are added to provide the owner more control. --ကိုရာဝီ 10:03, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Thanks Ko Ravi. According to your explanation, license is not required if owner don't want to. As long as free download is given it it fine. Thanks for explaining your opinion. Let me know if I interpreted wrong.  Okisan 12:55, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :I though you will reply soon. But you didn't. However this Wikipedia favor FOSS font. How come you say font without license is OK for this Wikipedia? Okisan 12:08, 12 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Myanmar Sysop Dispute my.wikipedia.org 

message: The growth of Myanmar Wikipedia content is abnormally slow and some reported losing their contribution in Myanmar Wikipedia. Nobody read well Myanmar Wikipedia font right from the beginning. I suggested to use Unicode 5.1 font as soon as FOSS font is available. There is rapid conversion font convector tool commonly used in Myanmar community know as Kanaung if necessary. Many users show disappointed about Wikipedia font problem openly in public forum (NT, MZ, MMITPros). Andrew Cunningham, an internationalization expert, commented "The current CSS rules are sub-optimal and detrimental to the uptake of Unicode 5.1 solutions by end users." MyMyanmar company also has issue with using Wikipedia in their branding. The commercial interest in Myanmar Wikipedia by sysop MyMyanmar is indeed true. To foster content growth and good public facing of Myanmar Wikipedia, I strongly request sysos MyMyanmar for de-adminship. Okisan 11:05, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)3
replies: text: The growth of the Myanmar Wikipedia is hindered by several factors, two namely, the never-ending bickering on which Unicode fonts to use and the lack of a mechanism to shift this Wikipedia itself to Unicode 5.1 standards. If the users here actually all started fruitfully contributing content to the Wikipedia or helping sort things out in a constructive manner, this Wikipedia community would be far better off. --Hintha 05:20, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :I am very sorry. I do not accept your argument. People now know that low update of mm.wikipedia.org is due to putting commerical font upfrond that user don't have. If sysops put Unicode 5.1 fonts as soon as available, many people will happily contribute. You can goggle Myanmar recepie for making mon hin gar, you will get more than 100 ways of doing it in blog. How come you say people are not contributing on the web for free? As Andrew Cunningham said current sub-optimal CSS rules make users turn aways. I strongly believe sysop MyMyanmar should be demotion immediately, otherwise we will have to elevate the issue. Now he is tuning away from user question for clarification. Please listen to user's outcry out there. Please maintain Wikipedia good public face. Okisan 05:47, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I never said "people are not contributing on the web for free." What I said was that users need to begin constructive work on this Wikipedia. Users are the the foundation of Wikipedias, as we know. Nothing happens overnight. I personally don't know what problems users are facing in editing this Wikipedia, because I personally tested this Wikipedia on IE7, IE8, Firefox 3.0, Firefox 3.0 Minefield, Safari on two operating systems (XP Home and Vista Ultimate) and found no problems in rendering, as long as the fonts recommended on the homepage are installed. The rendering turns out as so: :Image:စာမျက်နာကိုပြင်​ဆင်​ရန်​.png. The only font that works in rendering Unicode successfully on IE currently is Padauk (Myanmar3 and Parabaik are not recognized as Myanmar fonts on IE--check it out yourself when you go to INTERNET OPTIONS, on the GENERAL tab click FONTS button, scroll down to Myanmar and look at which fonts are recognized), which is the primary recommendation on the homepage. --Hintha 06:50, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Sorry if I made you confuse. What I mean there is thriving people welling to contribute in my.wikipedia.org. A lot. Yeah could be low quality. But anyways we first focus quantity than quality. That I know for sure because I am forum master and build many Myanmar web sites. I also know how tough to upgrade from 4.1 to 5.1 and also browser problem. Myanmar web user particularly rich user of Firefox (46%). Please also note input system is also important to get rich contributor. Also for a bad reason, there are many people nothing but Zawgyi font. Okisan 07:18, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: ::By the way, if you want to edit your personal monobook.css for the Myanmar Wikipedia, go to User:Okisan/monobook.css to test things out and help us deliberate. --Hintha 06:52, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Thanks. I did. It is great! Really great! it works both IE 7.0 and Firefox 3.0. Here is my favorite CSS rules body { font-family: Parabaik, Myanmar3, Padauk, Arial; } that I recommend for my.wikipedia.org for long. I hope sysop listen. Okisan 07:08, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sysop MyMyanmar is not appropriate for the admin duty

message: Quoting from MyMyanmar's conversation below (If you think you have to read MyMyanmar's font license to use, then don't use it.), it can be conclude that he is very poor in Copyright knowledge. He is inappropriate for managing Wikipedia contents. Okisan 08:24, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The statutory requirement for copyright is the presence of a copyright symbol, the name of the holder and the year. I have not seen any requirements for License to be present in these laws. License are usually added when the terms of the basic laws are not suitable for the product owner; they are never added to make life easier for the user. They are added to provide the owner more control. --ကိုရာဝီ 10:03, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Thanks Ko Ravi. According to your explanation, license is not required if owner don't want to. As long as free download is given it it fine. Thanks for explaining your opinion. Let me know if I interpreted wrong.  Okisan 12:55, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :I though you will reply soon. But you didn't. However this Wikipedia favor FOSS font. How come you say font without license is OK for this Wikipedia? Okisan 12:08, 12 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: sysop MyMyanmar does not understand copyright

message: I am coming here again and again to see reply from permanent sysop, MyMyanmar. He talked a lot in above post (Sysop MyMyanmar is not appropriate for the admin duty), but mostly invalid statements. I have requested to response several issue as above, but MyMyanmar is disinterested for request on clarification. Okisan 01:25, 24 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Irresponsible sysop

message: If you are having problems reading my.wikipedia.org of having problems contributing, the %E1%80%A1%E1%80%99%E1%80%B1%E1%80%B8%E1%80%99%E1%80%BB%E1%80%AC%E1%80%B8%E1%80%9E%E1%80%B1%E1%80%AC%E1%80%99%E1%80%B1%E1%80%B8%E1%80%81%E1%80%BD%E1%80%94%E1%80%BA%E1%80%B8%E1%80%99%E1%80%BB%E1%80%AC%E1%80%B8 (FAQ) section of this site will be very helpful.--ကိုရာဝီ 08:54, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very concern about the current sysops's (Kyawgyi, MyMyanmar, Nick1915, Tristanb, Zawthet) capability to maintaining Wikipedia. my.wikipedia.org growths is abnormally slow. Luck of proper help is one of the main reason. Okisan 22:05, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Hi Ko Kyaw Gyi, Can I request here to put Parabaik Fonts in common.cssParabaik 04:07, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :MyMyanmar still acted his biased contribution to wikipedia. He edited Common.css. But he didn't put all Myanmar Unicode Font there. Here is his edited sequence Anawrahta, "MyMyanmar Unicode", Padauk, Myanmar2, Myanmar3, Arial; There are no burmese Unicode glyph in Arial. I can't see Anawrahta yet. Please see here Parabaik Font Recommendation by Myanmar Open Office Team. So, Could you help me to adjust wikipedia more healthy and development with unbiased things.Parabaik 04:15, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
I agree that we should use the fonts those are common and distributed with GNU GPL or LGPL license. Wikipedia is not a place to advertise font or test the fonts. I have edited common.css to include Parabaik. --Zawthet 18:24, 22 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  For those seeing '''''Garbled''''' scripts/fonts 

message: I hope this does not cause too much flame. My intentions are not to make Paduak or MyMyanmar look bad, but to provide my experience with Sahana and why I had to switch to Myanmar3 and Parabaik half way through localizing Sahana. I am seeing the same issues cropping up here. Basically Paduak and MyMyanmar Unicode are what I like to call "forgiving" fonts. These fonts tries to make life easy for the user at the expense of hurting the encoding model. With theses fonts users can type in more than one way to produce the same words, thus resulting in degeneracy. Both of them do not follow the dotted model, and therefore incorrect encoding are displayed correctly. Hence users would not be aware that they have typed in wrong sequence. I shall try to re-sequence all theses instances, but I will be having a hard time if new content start cropping up with incorrect sequences. Contributors please change to Myanmar3 or Parabaik to see the issues. Many thanks. It is my recommendation for contributors to use fonts that support the dotted model so that degeneracy is kept to a minimum. Many thanks again.--ကိုရာဝီ 11:21, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I will request a reason for putting commercial MyMyanmar font upfront of css where us three FOSS Unicode 5.1 fonts are left out. Okisan 13:10, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :MyMyanmar is not a commercial font. You can download it at myyanmar.net. MyMyanmar 17:48, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::No. What you describe above is a false statement. Could you check your website and tell me exactly what is said here? Please describe your MyMyanmar license. Thanks. Okisan 18:26, 9 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: MyMyanmar is a free font since it's first release.If you think you have to read MyMyanmar's font license to use, then don't use it. Buy everyone else can still download MyMyanmar for free. Wikipedia have no limit for you without MyMyanmar. We, ကိုရာဝီ,Hintha are progressing here, if you really want to make something better, you're welcome to cooperate. MyMyanmar 07:22, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Welcome MyMyanmar if it is public freely redistributable license. I will put under ZawGyi.ORG download. ;P One thing you should know is "download free don't mean free", must attach license. User rarely own a software but just license for use. So far your software is very buggy, resetting setting without user permission and uninstaller problem, etc. I know a lot about your software. I don't want to discuss here since it can raise unnecessary fire. For which font should be first, please see Andrew Cunningham recommendation here. Very comprehensive and thoughtful. In my straight opinion it should be Parabaik, Myanmar3, MyMyanmar and Padauk assuming that MyMyanmar is nothing more than yet-another-Padauk. Okisan 07:48, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: The reason I don't embed a license yet is it have no effect for my country. I thought you cannot use my software because I don't provide a license but as you are talking about bugs, even you downloaded it for free. Don't put my software under pseudo-font only developer's website. I would disagree your idea on Padauk as it is better in terms of feature than Myanmar3 and Parabaik. As I said to another person in my talk page, Fonts and CSS are designed for rendering. Padauk can render on more platform than any currently released font. Anawrahta will have better support than Padauk while "MyMyanmar Unicode" is at the middle. If there's any reason Parabaik or Myanmar3 is better in terms of readability, you can discuss. If you know bugs of my software, you are welcomed to send email to support@mymyanmar.net. MyMyanmar 11:59, 10 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :You did great in Yongon, MyMyanmar. Even in my open source development, if there is not license, we don't take it even if you give me free download. We see who is the original, who is responsible and more important legally permit for the use. Okisan 12:04, 11 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: :Thanks for advice anyway, I'll consider writing a license in the future. You said you don't take unlicensed software and why did you say that you know a lot about it? MyMyanmar 19:52, 11 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Dear MyMyanmar, I have more then ten members working in Myanmar Language Processing project. That is why. Please attach license to all of your product. I consider software without license is rubbish. As software publisher, you never give your software to end user, but give a license to use it according to your EULA. Always request user to agree it before using your software by click on dialog box, on the packing of the retail box or any another ways. So that is very important concept to know. Best regards, Okisan 22:39, 11 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)

text: I will stop this argument here. It's our decision to add a license or not. As long as it is usable to our people in our country, we are happy. A license in my opinion is to protect ourselves from users. I don't think I need such protection from my users now. And of course, this decision is for MyMyanmar Projects only. MyMyanmar 18:40, 12 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Good to know your decision. Cheer! Okisan 22:17, 12 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: MyMyanmar Unicode and Paduak not suitable for Wikipedia Contributors

message: I think we should make a myanmar wiki forum. So we can clearly discuss about our wiki. :)--bluephoenix 13:17, 15 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This will be nice. But I think this kind of talk is substitute for forum in Wikipedia. Okisan 09:27, 16 ဇူ​လိုင်​ 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Myanmar Wiki forum proposal

message: I suggest we use 2 to 3 different unicode fonts on the Burmse/Myanmar Version so that people can edit with any fonts they have.
thread_title: should we use multiple Burmese Unicode fonts?