Perbincangan:Penerbangan 17 Penerbangan Malaysia

message: Macam mana kita nak senaraikan penumpang yang ada dua kewarganegaraan?
Setakat Sabtu, 11:40 pagi, Malaysia Airlines dah keluarkan senarai ni:
Negara	Nombor
      	192 (termasuk 1 Belanda/US)
      	44 (termasuk 15 krew dan 2 kanak-kanak)
      	27
      	12 (termasuk 1 kanak-kanak)
      	10 (termasuk 1 UK/Afrika Selatan)
      	4
      	4
      	3
      	1
      	1
Jumlah	298
(Rujukan: Saturday, July 19, 11:40 AM GMT +0800 Media Statement 6: MH17 Incident)
Syahir√2 (b • s) 06:37, 19 Julai 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Buat macam en.wiki buat shj. Jadi nota. ...Aurora... (b) 07:48, 19 Julai 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Senarai penumpang mengikut negara

message: Saya telah membatalkan pemindahan oleh Malekhanif untuk sebab-sebab berikut:
# Mengikut sebab yang diberikan olehnya, media Malaysia menggunakan nama "Pesawat MH17 Malaysia Airlines". Walau bagaimanapun, adalah penting untuk mengingati bahawa kami sedang menulis Wikipedia untuk pembaca antarabangsa, walaupun Bahasa Melayu adalah lebih berkuasa di Malaysia dan (kemungkinan) banyak pembaca kita berasal dari situ. Kami sedang menulis untuk sesiapa dalam dunia ini yang boleh membaca dan memahami Bahasa Melayu, termasuk, tetapi tidak terhad kepada, mereka di negara-negara lain yang berkomunikasi dalam Bahasa Melayu seperti Singapura, Brunei, Pulau Krismas dsb. serta sesiapa yang mempelajari Bahasa Melayu di negara-negara lain. Juga ingatkan bahawa Wikipedia bukan berita (ini pergi ke Wikiberita); oleh itu kami tidak wajib menggunakan nama yang diberikan oleh sebarang media, kecuali jika dikenali sebagai itu secara umum (juga lihat nombor 3 di bawah).
# Tambahannya, kembangan "MH" dalam Bahasa Inggeris ialah "Malaysia Airlines Flight ..."; ini sebabnya format ini digunakan pada Wikipedia Bahasa Inggeris. Ini akan diterjemahkan kepada "Penerbangan ... Penerbangan Malaysia" (di mana "Penerbangan Malaysia" adalah terjemahan umum nama "Malaysia Airlines") dan oleh sebab itu kami menggunakan format penamaan ini. Pada Wikipedia Bahasa Melayu kami menggunakan nama Melayu yang umum (mengikut keadaan) di mana kami dapat.
# Pada Wikipedia, kami mahu mempunyai ketekalan dengan penamaan rencana kami; jika kami mengikut penamaan rencana tentang bencana penerbangan seperti Penerbangan 370 Penerbangan Malaysia, Penerbangan 202 Airblue, Penerbangan 175 United Airlines dsb., nama rencana ini hendaklah mengikut gaya penamaan ini sebagai "Penerbangan 17 Penerbangan Malaysia". Oleh itu, ini sebabnya saya telah menggunakan nama ini pada mulanya.
Sila hubungi saya pada laman perbincangan saya jika anda mempunyai komen tentang ini. Sekian :)
I have undone the move by Malekhanif for the following reasons:
# According to the reason for his/her move, Malaysian media uses the name "Pesawat MH17 Malaysia Airlines". However, it is important to keep in mind that we are writing Wikipedia for an international audience, despite the Malay language being dominant in Malaysia and (possibly) most of our readers originate from there. We are writing for anyone in the world who can read and understand the Malay language, including, but not limited to, those in other countries which communicate in Malay such as Singapore, Brunei, Christmas Island etc. as well as those who learn the Malay language in other countries. Also remember that Wikipedia is :en:WP:NOTNEWS (that would go onto Wikinews), hence we're not obliged to follow the naming given by any media, unless is officially known as such (which it isn't by the way; unless you want to cite a source, but then again look at point number 3 below).
# Additionally, the expansion of "MH" in English is "Malaysia Airlines Flight ...", which is why the name on the English Wikipedia is given as such. This would translate to "Penerbangan ... Penerbangan Malaysia" (where "Penerbangan Malaysia" is the official translation of "Malaysia Airlines") and hence we use this naming format. On the Malay Wikipedia we use official (depending on the situation) Malay names wherever we can.
# On Wikipedia, we want to have consistency with the naming of our articles, so if we follow the naming of aviation disaster articles such as Penerbangan 370 Penerbangan Malaysia, Penerbangan 202 Airblue, Penerbangan 175 United Airlines and etc., then the name of this article should follow this style of naming as "Penerbangan 17 Penerbangan Malaysia". Hence this is why I chose this name in the first place.
Please contact me on my talk page if you have any comments on this matter. Thanks :) Pizza1016 (bincang) 03:54, 24 Julai 2014 (UTC)
===Alasan-alasan lain===
# Perkataan 'Penerbangan' tak boleh diulang dalam ayat yang sama, menyalahi tatabahasa. 
# id : 'Malaysia Airlines Penerbangan 17
# en : 'Malaysia Airlines Flight 17' = Malaysia Airlines Airlines 17 ? atau Malaysia Flight Flight 17 ?
# Sebut yang kecil baru yang besar . Contoh Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Malekhanif (bincang) 12:45, 24 Julai 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hukum D-M menerangkan bahawa perkara yang diterangkan, iaitu "Penerbangan 17" mendahului perkara yang menerangkannya, iaitu "Penerbangan Malaysia". Perkara yang dibincangkan di sini ialah "Penerbangan 17" bagi "Penerbangan Malaysia". Perkataan "penerbangan" dalam "Penerbangan 17" merujuk perihalnya sementara "Penerbangan Malaysia" merupakan nama am (kata nama khas) bagi syarikatnya. Amir Hamzah 2008 (bincang) 14:17, 24 Julai 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penamaan rencana / naming the article 

message: # Perkataan 'Penerbangan' tak boleh diulang dalam ayat yang sama, menyalahi tatabahasa. 
# id : 'Malaysia Airlines Penerbangan 17
# en : 'Malaysia Airlines Flight 17' = Malaysia Airlines Airlines 17 ? atau Malaysia Flight Flight 17 ?
# Sebut yang kecil baru yang besar . Contoh Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Malekhanif (bincang) 12:45, 24 Julai 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hukum D-M menerangkan bahawa perkara yang diterangkan, iaitu "Penerbangan 17" mendahului perkara yang menerangkannya, iaitu "Penerbangan Malaysia". Perkara yang dibincangkan di sini ialah "Penerbangan 17" bagi "Penerbangan Malaysia". Perkataan "penerbangan" dalam "Penerbangan 17" merujuk perihalnya sementara "Penerbangan Malaysia" merupakan nama am (kata nama khas) bagi syarikatnya. Amir Hamzah 2008 (bincang) 14:17, 24 Julai 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Alasan-alasan lain

message: Here is information:
The flight had two captains, Wan Amran Wan Hussin of Kuala Kangsar and Eugene Choo Jin Leong (Chinese: 朱仁隆 Zhū Rénlóng"MH17航班华裔机长父妻均曾就职马航" (Archive). Sina. July 18, 2014. Retrieved on August 22, 2014.) of Seremban, and two copilots, Ahmad Hakimi Hanapi and Muhd Firdaus Abdul Rahim."The crew of MH17" (Archive). The Star. Friday 22 August 2914. Retrieved on 22 August 2014.
WhisperToMe (bincang) 14:56, 22 Ogos 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Captains 

message: :Here are archives of the preliminary report files:
replies: text: *ENGLISH: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6SSLxTGmD

text: *DUTCH: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/700/b0183934171fprem-rapport-mh-17-nl-interactief.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6SSM4O6O2

text: In English page 6 of 34: "This report is published in the Dutch and English languages. If there is a difference in interpretation between the Dutch and English versions, the English text will prevail."

text: In Dutch page 5 of 35: "Dit rapport is zowel in het Nederlands als in het Engels verschenen. Indien er verschil bestaat in de interpretatie van het Nederlandse en Engelse rapport, is het Engelse rapport leidend."
Whenever there is a difference between the English and Dutch versions, use the English version as the source
WhisperToMe (bincang) 09:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note about MH17 preliminary report 

message: Ladies and gentlemen,
I have mass-archived primary source material from the Dutch Safety Board about the MH17 crash. I have done so to keep the materials available for future generations of Wikipedia editors and for the international public.
I apologize for making this post in English, but I am not fluent in any other languages.
I will post this list to the MH17 talk pages of the following language edition Wikipedias: English, Ukrainian, Russian, Dutch, Malay, Mandarin Chinese, and Tamil.
* English is the international auxiliary language
* Ukrainian and Russian are the languages of the location of the crash: Hrabove (Grabovo), Ukraine - These documents are also helpful for readers based in the Russian Federation
* Dutch is the language of the flight's origin (Amsterdam) and of most of the passengers
* Malay is the official language of Malaysia (the country of the airline, Malaysia Airlines), as well as the primary language of the destination (Kuala Lumpur). Along with Malay and English, Mandarin Chinese and Tamil are Malaysia's other significant languages as they are used by the country's Chinese and Indian minorities.
Material in English:
* Final report: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/report-mh17-crash-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXhujEUQ
** On page 3/279 the report says "If there is a difference in interpretation between the English and Dutch versions, the English text will prevail." (emphasis mine) - In consideration of this text, on all language Wikipedia editions, please use the English version of the text in case of any difference between it and the Dutch version
** Report appendices:
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/appendices-au-mh17-crash-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXjFQjmz
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/appendix-v-consultation-part-a.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXjHnV6i
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/appendix-w-consultation-part-b.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXjf0BGo
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/appendix-x-nlr-report-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXjiEtv8
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/appendix-y-tno-report-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXjxHsbn
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/appendix-z-tno-report-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXkDtNh1
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/brochure-mh17-crash-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXiqttSC
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/report-mh17-passengerinformation-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXkfu4tj
** Note: p. 3/98 says: "NB: This report is published in the Dutch and English languages. If there is a difference in interpretation between the Dutch and English versions, the Dutch text will prevail." - However the Dutch version says that the English version is to be preferred in case of differences between the two
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/appendix-b-passengerinformation.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXkn3YM5
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/brochure-mh17-passengerinformation-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXlBpphd
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/report-mh17-abouttheinvestigation-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXlH0O3K
* Videos:
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video01-crashmh17-en.mp4 (unable to be archived on webcitation, but is available on the Internet Archive) - http://wayback.archive.org/*/http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video01-crashmh17-en.mp4
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video02-causes-en.mp4 - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXmhsvmB
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video03-flyingconflictzones-en.mp4 - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXmZ7RPc
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video04-reconstrucion-en.mp4 - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXmqT5Q3
* DSB index page: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/ - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXhy9Fqc
* Press release: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/pressrelease-mh17-en.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXiHwItV
Material in Dutch:
* Final report (Dutch version): http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/rapport-mh17-crash-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXn6vVbI
** p. 3/297 states: "N.B. Dit rapport is zowel in het Engels als in het Nederlands verschenen. Indien er verschil bestaat in de interpretatie van het Nederlandse en Engelse rapport, is het Engelse rapport leidend." - The Dutch report also says that the text in English prevails if there is any difference between the English and Dutch versions
** Appendices:
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/bijlagen-au-mh17-crash-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXpKAr40
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/bijlage-v-inzage-deel-a.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXpPFMox
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/bijlage-w-inzage-deel-b.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXpaXzar
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/bijlage-x-nlr-rapport-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXpbL3Uk
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/bijlage-y-tno-rapport-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXqXyzZZ
*** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/bijlage-z-tno-rapport-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXqkiMri
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/publieksversie-mh17-crash-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXrxZea5
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/rapport-mh17-passagiersinformatie-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXsOQFW7
** Note: p. 3/102 says: "N.B. Dit rapport is zowel in het Engels als in het Nederlands verschenen. Indien er verschil bestaat in de interpretatie van het Engelse en Nederlandse rapport, is het Engelse rapport leidend." - However the English report says the Dutch report has supremacy
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/bijlage-b-passagiersinformatie-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXsSoJWT
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/publieksversie-mh17-passagiersinformatie-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXsVEHzq
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/rapport-mh17-onderzoeksverantwoording-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXsXm9go
* Videos:
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video01-crashmh17-nl.mp4 - Too large to be on webcitation, but archived at http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video01-crashmh17-nl.mp4
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video02-oorzaken-nl.mp4 - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXtGQxX6
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video03-vliegenconflictgebieden-nl.mp4 - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXtOLo8E
** http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video04-reconstructie-nl.mp4 - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXtWAUTA
* DSB index page: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/nl.html - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXiElxCS
* Press release: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/persbericht-mh17-nl.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXmyOrHW
Material in Russian:
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/brochure-mh17-crash-ru.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXiyINZu
* Video in English with Russian subtitles: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video01-crashmh17-ru.mp4 (unable to be archived on webcitation, but is available on the Internet Archive) http://wayback.archive.org/*/http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video01-crashmh17-ru.mp4
Material in Ukrainian:
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/brochure-mh17-crash-uk.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXj2Cf5Q
* Video in English with Ukrainian subtitles: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video01-crashmh17-ukr.mp4 (unable to be archived on webcitation, but is available on the Internet Archive) http://wayback.archive.org/*/http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/movies/video01-crashmh17-ukr.mp4
Photographs:
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig01-reconstructie.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXtnrh6t
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig02-reconstructie.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXtqR6pe
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig03-reconstructie.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXtuJT3v
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig04-reconstructie.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXtwunkT
* figure 5
** English: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig05-crash-fig12-en.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXtzh3Z6
** Dutch: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig05-crash-fig12-nl.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXu3NYRM
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig06-crash-fig19.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXu8whkV
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig07-crash-fig33.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXuGMJkz
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig08-crash-fig37.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXuKukSh
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig09-crash-fig45.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXubYED0
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig10-crash-fig48.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXudtQxC
* figure 11
** English: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig11-crash-fig61-en.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXugbZ0W
** Dutch: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig11-crash-fig61-nl.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXuj1q6Y
* http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/fig-12.jpg - http://www.webcitation.org/6cXulMtVS
As far as I know, no material from the DSB has been published in the other languages of Malaysia (Malay, Chinese, or Tamil).
WhisperToMe (bincang) 16:00, 25 Oktober 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The correct Wiki to post primary document is at WikiSources. Yosri (bincang) 17:56, 25 Oktober 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: :Material that is not copyrighted may be posted at Wikisource, but stuff that is may not. AFAIK DSB materials are not copyrighted. The procedure is to post raw PDF files, videos, audio, etc. on the Commons, then write plaintext Wikisource pages based on the raw PDFs. WhisperToMe (bincang) 00:22, 31 Januari 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive of DSB materials