Diskusija:Angela Merkele

message: Manuprāt, pareizāk saukt "Merkele", nevis "Merkela". Gūglē arī ir 955 pret 236. --Dainis 11:05, 28 jūnijā, 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Man pašam arī tā likās, bet Vācijas lapā bija norādīta "Merkela" un tā kā šī nav mana stiprā puse, tad neko nemainīju. Merkele šobrīd ir kā pāradresācijas lapa. Gragox 11:08, 28 jūnijā, 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Vācijas vēstniecības lapā , kur tā kā būtu jāzin kā ir pareizi ir Merkele, Merkel latvisko kā Merķelis kam sieviešu dzimte ar -a nešķiet īsti pareiza---- Xil/gribi par to parunāt ? 20:24, 28 jūnijā, 2007 (UTC)
Pirma laika tieši interesējoss par tām feminīmo uzvārdu galotnēm un to pareizrakstību latviešu valodā. Uzvaicāju padomiņu vairākiem filologiem. Pareizrakstība esot gana viennozīmīga: ja vīriešu dzimtē uzvārds beidzas ar "-is", tad sieviešu dzimtē būs "-e", savukārt ja vīriešu dzimtē uzvārds beidzas ar "-s", tad sieviešu dzimtē jābūt "-a". No otras puses jāatzīst, ka žurnālisti un PR speciālisti filoloģijas jomā lielāko tiesu nav izglītoti, tāpēc medijos uzvārdu atveidošanā valda juceklis. --anonīms 07:48, 19 oktobrī, 2008 (UTC)

text: Pareizi būtu Merkele, jo ja priekšpēdējā zilbē ir patskanis "e", tad arī galotne "-e". --Kikos 07:55, 19 oktobrī, 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :O! Tādas nianses man neskaidroja (konsultējos par Stjuartiem, tb vai ir "Stjuarte" vai "Stjuarta"). --anonīms 08:52, 19 oktobrī, 2008 (UTC)

text: Tas attiecas uz vācu valodu (sk. diskusiju par Iterzene). --Kikos 06:12, 20 oktobrī, 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Diemžēl avīzēs, cik esmu sastapies, biežāk ir ar -a, arī tādās lapās kā ec.europa.eu, www.esia.gov.lv Ko darām? --Feens 21:32, 19 oktobrī, 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Muļķības runāju, Diena un Vācijas vēstniecība lieto Merkele. Mainu nost. --Feens 21:44, 19 oktobrī, 2008 (UTC)
Kāds man varētu paskaidrot atšķirību - kādēļ mēs atveidojam Angela Merkel kā Angelu Merkeli, bet Garlieb Merkel kā Garlību Merķeli? -- gragox diskusija 19:54, 25 janvārī, 2009 (UTC)

text: Tāpēc, ka Merķelis ir eksonīms. Tobiš, "nepareizs", bet iegājies. Valodnieku, ne mana, nostāja. --Feens 23:04, 25 janvārī, 2009 (UTC)

message: Hello,
I see that you discuss whether writing Merkele or Merkela. Well, both is wrong! What's the problem to write Angela Merkel? That is her real name. Mrs Merkel is German, not Latvian!
In German we write all names written in Latin script (English names, French names, Czech names, Latvian names) in their original form. That is a kind of respect against other languages and the persons themselves.
I know that in former USSR Russians "translated" all names into Russian. They did NOT respect Latvians, Ukrainians, Georgians, Kazakhs. In Germany that was common in former centuries, too, for example for Czech names. But it is not ok for present. We should respect each other and each others names.
As a friend of Baltic states I please you not to change German names!
Kind regards,
Juhan, German-speaking Wikipedia
replies: text: We understand your concerns, but current rules of Latvian grammar require to transliterate all geographical and people names. Wikipedia is not the place to propose a change in this system. See http://www.google.lv/search?hl=lv&q=Angela+Merkele+site:.lv - we did not invent this here. --Papuass 15:02, 14 maijā, 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: :Hi Papuass,

text: :thank you very much for your answer! I understand the gender problem. So Angela Merkele maybe ok in Latvian language. But then, another example, why Horsts Kēlers and not Horsts Köhlers? That example is not a grammar problem but a changing of the name of our president.

text: :Best wishes,

text: :Juhan
replies: text: ::There is no gender problem here - german characters are german characters, latvian translitaration laws are latvian transliteration laws which aren't made up by wikipedians here - and writing german names in original script (which by the way would be total disrespect to latvian language which have rules for this) would be complete original research. I understand that it could seem strange to non-latvian speaker, but to be honest - we don't care - rules are rules and in latvian wikipedia the laws of latvian language (including transliteration) are in effect. --Krishjaanis 14:55, 15 maijā, 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: ::: See also vācu īpašvārdu atveidošana --Treisijs 16:47, 15 maijā, 2010 (UTC)
Hello,
thank you very much for your answers!
I understand the system of transliteration, that's not the problem. In German we have such systems for Cyrillic or Greek written names, too. But what is the legitimation to transliterate Latin written names from one language to another Latin written language?
I understand the "-s", "-a" or "-e" at the end of the names, if there are Grammar reasons. But all other "transliterations" in fact are nothing other than Latvianizations. That may be common for Russians, when the Ukrainian Volodymyr becomes Vladimir. But it is NOT acceptable for modern countries in European Union.
By the way, there are already websites in Latvian language that don't Latvianize foreign names. For example the names Herman Van Rompuy an Felipe González: http://www.european-council.europa.eu/home-page/highlights/project-europe-2030.aspx?lang=lv
Even the ending "-s" is not used.
Please stop this old-fashioned practice in Latvian Wikipedia!
Best wishes,
Juhan

text: Please give us link to EU regulation where it is stated that it is "NOT acceptable". This is the first time I hear this. --Papuass 14:39, 24 maijā, 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: :Tātad beidzot Eiropa mūs, mežoņus, mācīs, kā jāraksta :D --Kikos 14:41, 24 maijā, 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Principā jau nav aizliegts rakstīt oriģinālformu kursīvā, ja nav īsti skaidrs, kā jālatvisko (labāk tā, nekā transliterēt pilnīgi šķērsām). Bet vispār izklausās smieklīgi, ka cilvēki, kas nekā nesaprot no latviešu valodas, mums uzbāžas ar savu "pareizrakstību". --ScAvenger 15:57, 24 maijā, 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Tā mēs varam arī angļiem un frančiem (vāciešiem mazākā mērā) braukt virsū, ka viņiem ir aizvēsturiska rakstība. Mēs varam lepoties, ka mums ir viena no jaunākajām rakstībām (kā izrunā tā raksta), tātād modernākā Eiropā.
replies: text: ::::Lai tas grammar nazi te vēl parādās - izrūnīšu pa trijām lapaspusēm. --Krishjaanis 16:25, 24 maijā, 2010 (UTC)
Well, it's not the point for Western Europe to tell "wild people" how to write. At first Latvia has a very rich culture and can be proud of the Latvian nation. I really have respect for you that you still are alive as a nation.
But please correct me if I am wrong in seeing a similar usage in Ex-USSR-countries (please don't hit me, cause I don't see many similarities between Baltic sates and Ex-USSR despite this).
There is Berti Vogts as coach of Azerbaijan national football team and what do Azerbaijanis? They write Berti Foqts. They do it because it is normal for them to transliterate foreign names. Same is in Georgia, where foreign names got an "-i" at the end until a few years ago. Nowadays practice changed a Georgian friend told me. And this, sorry, is heritage of Russian time and their arrogant manner against other languages. All not-Russian people "learned" that it is normal to transliterate and translate names in other languages.
I said we as Germans did the same in former days. But it was not ok and it is not ok today.
I repeat that Grammar reasons are acceptable. In German there is "Genitiv". If I wanna say "It is the house of Vaira Vīķe-Freiberga." I say in German "Es ist Vaira Vīķe-Freibergas Haus.". The "s" is from "Genitiv".
So ok, write "Angela Merkele" (or "Angela Merkela"?) if this is necessary for Latvian grammar. But more far-reaching transliterations like they are showed in the list for German names are bullshit.
You have the right to await respect for Latvian nation and Latvian names by arrogant Western-Europeans. We practise this respect in German Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaira_V%C4%AB%C4%B7e-Freiberga But we as Germans have got this right as well against you! My name is my name. And I am not Latvian, so my script is German.
And please tell me why it is possible that not-Latvian names on EU-sites are written in their original form even in Latvian language whereas this is impossible in Latvian Wikipedia.
Best wishes,
Juhan (Estonian name for German user, not transliterated or translated, and a symbol of cultural wealthy of Europe ;-) )

text: Dear Juhan - if you still haven't understood what people told yo uthen you, my friend, are an complete arrogant idiot. The transliteration isn't some "USSR legacy which discrespects all kind of non-russians" (btw, that was a clever move- playing on feelings of latvians toward USSR legacy) - the fact that foreign names are translitereted is the way latvian language works, just the same as sun shines or people die - thats how it works. --Krishjaanis 11:13, 26 maijā, 2010 (UTC)Btw, the fact that some official EU sites in latvian writes names in original script is a discrespect to latvian language and clear violation of grammar rules, so you (as an amid activist) could ask them - why does official EU institutions disregard grammar rules of one of many official EU languages. --Krishjaanis 11:17, 26 maijā, 2010 (UTC)
Hi Krishjaanis,
I understood quite good. I understand grammar rules force the endings "-s", "-a" and "-e". No problem with that, it's ok. But do you want to tell me seriously that it is necessary for a correct Latvian grammar to change the name Köhler to Kēlers (I read Kyolers as well what could be of Russian origin where ö often becomes yo in transliteration).
In my opinion these transcriptions are not necessary for grammar but a very bad and old-fashioned habit, not more. EU-sites in Latvian language should be written by Latvians I think. Cause unfortunately less people are fluent in your language outside of Latvia (I seriously regret this by the way).
Your reaction shows me that not many Latvians thought about feelings that such scripts can arouse in Non-Latvians (Azerbaijani reaction was similar by the way). I wrote that we in Germany did the same in former days and this was simply bullshit. Think about that, please! It is possible to acclimatise to linguistic innovations in reference to personal names. We did and you will do one day as well. Over and out.
Best wishes, Juhan
P.S.: Maybe you see me as an arrogant Western European. Do so if you wanna, but that's wrong. I liked and I like Baltic states, visited them several times and got to know your country as ambitious and impressive. We in Germany should learn by many of your experiences. Historic experiences but as well in the sphere of social reforms for example. Our economic and social problems are much smaller but people moan all the time.
Because of this I am full of respect to Latvia. And because of respect to my own language and identity I will never accept that personal names become deformed by transliterations (exonyms for geographic names of course are different from this and legitimate).

text: Dude you finally got the point - i even bolded it for you. Cheers. --Krishjaanis 11:15, 10 jūnijā, 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: :May I remind you that this is not a forum. The way we treat foreign names is not up to us to decide as it goes against the Wikipedia rules, therefore this discusion is pointless. And it has nothing to do with USSR, the system existed well before that and unlike in some other languages it is universaly used ~~ (saruna) 11:38, 10 jūnijā, 2010 (UTC)
No doubt that this tradition is older than USSR. No doubt as well that it can be found not only in the Latvian language. But firstly it is found in languages on the territory of former USSR. Like it or not, that's a fact. Vietnamese Wikipedia uses the correct script for Angela Merkel: http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel
I agree that Wikipedia cannot change such traditions. But it is a necessary discussion for Latvian linguists and society. Correct scripts on Latvian EU-websites are a positive initial.
Best wishes, Juhan
replies: text: ::It is survivals of :en:romantic nationalism, that was dominant in all new Eastern European countries at the beginning of 20th century. Soviet occupation just let it remain in Latvian culture as one of forms of protection against extinction. Yes, in globalization age it is useless but we can't do nothing about it because it's tradition and you cant so easy get rid of traditions just saying to stop doing that. 91.188.48.116 16:34, 14 jūnijā, 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: ::: Just ran across this. Yes, and George Bush is Džordž Bušs. As I recall there was a court case where if someone really really insisted they could continue to use their non-Latvianized name, however, it's not just custom, it's the law. We wouldn't want LV:WP to break the law, after all. The purpose of WP is not to "lead" or "advocate." Latvians have always transliterated names, as far as I know. Vecrumba (diskusija) 20:45, 23 augustā, 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Yes, and George Bush is Džordž Bušs. Džordžs Bušs. --ScAvenger (diskusija) 04:18, 24 augustā, 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please write German names in their original script