lflage/wiki-talks huggingface dataset:
Disputatio:Collectivitas Transmarina Francica

message: Quaerit UV: "(singular or plural? in French it's plural)." I don't know, but it's singular in en: and fr: (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallis_%28%C3%AEle%29). ¶ Hey! Our article on ‘Uvea is more thorough than the one in fr:! IacobusAmor 00:42, 23 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But of course it is! Vicipaedia sets the standard!

text: It looks to me that each territory is a collectivité (sg.); there is more than one collectivité. The fr:wiki article about them all is headed in the plural, but I guess our usual rule is to have headings in the singular. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:14, 23 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Not always though: we've got Civitates Foederatae Americae! If in your judgment (living over there and all) it should be Maritimae regionum et territoriorum collectivitates Francicae (or some other wording altogether), feel free to make it that. ¶ Btw, in ‘Uvea, how jarring does the opening single quote (‘) look? It's phonemic in Polynesian—and since many personal names are common nouns & phrases, it could be useful in distinguishing the hundreds (nay, thousands) of Polynesians whose names will enter Vicipaedia over time. For example, Samoan pae 'strew, be strewn; mollusc, cockle' and pa‘e 'bleach, be pale'. If you read about someone named Pae, wouldn't you want to know something about what the name signified? Maybe not, and maybe the benefits of that mark are insufficient to compensate for its strangeness. I used it so we could see it in context and have something to think about. My guess is that the old Romans (like many modern Americans & Europeans) wouldn't have noticed it when they heard it, and would therefore have universally omitted it in writing. However, Vicipaedia's policy should be general. Would we call the French composer Halévy Halevy? Maybe not if we let it stand as such, but if it's Latinized, we don't have a problem with Halevius, do we? IacobusAmor 12:03, 23 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Collectivité(s)

message: Si "collectivitas" novellae Latinitatis redolet, an melius "Procuratio transmarina Francica"? videte s.v.p. Disputatio:Communitas Europaea Alsatiae. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:15, 4 Novembris 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  De titulo
Disputatio:Discrimen tertii saeculi

message: I would move to crisis tertii saeculi (whether crisis or discrimen, it sounds, however, a little bit like "the crisis of the Third Reich") or crisis tertii saeculi Romana. Because there was no other centennial crisis, we could also simply say Saeculum Crisis Romanae or Crisis Romana saecularis, crisis centum annorum Romana. Crisis is a Greek word also in use in Latin. To sum up:
Crisis tertii saeculi
Crisis tertii saeculi Romana
Saeculum Crisis Romanae
Crisis Romana Saecularis
Crisis Centum Annorum Romana.
--Alex1011 10:18, 23 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My best English-Latin dictionary confirms "discrimen" as a good word to choose. According to the same source, "crisis" is very rare in classical Latin and only used in its obvious medical sense (the "crisis" of a fever). On this basis, I wouldn't see a need to change the title. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:48, 23 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

message: calefactio? Till now I thought there was a global climate cooling at that time!
Conf.: RO = Climate optimum of Roman times: until ca. 300-400 AD. Warm and dry. May have supported the Roman empire. VW = Climate deterioration at the time of the general south migration of Germanic tribes in Europe: until ca. 700 AD. Cool and wet ([])--Utilo 23:02, 24 Ianuarii 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  ad causas: calefactio in / sub septemtrionibus? 

message: Villenagium vox latinitatis medii aevi est, haec fere significans: in villenagio est, cui status (servi) villani est. Hoc vocabulo rarissime utuntur, in latinitate - ut ita dicam: - solita non legitur. Habemusne vocabulum res feudales usitatius exprimens?--Bavarese (disputatio) 11:03, 26 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  villenagium 

message: Subscriptio imaginis Diocletiani "dubsig" est. Num scribatur "tetrarchia incipiente"? Bis-Taurinus (disputatio) 15:25, 26 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Pro Augustus Diocletianus, qui, imperium anno 284 sumptus, discrimen desinit Tetrarchia incipiens fortasse Augustus Diocletianus anno 284 imperium adsumpsit. Regimine tetrarchiae incipiente discrimen desiit? --Bavarese (disputatio) 17:38, 26 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tetrarchia incipiens
Disputatio:Lilybaeum

message: ... there is always Wiki Sicilianu.  This is very useful, for towns in any part of Italy (seeing as we have Wiki Napoletano, Wiki Piemontese, etc. etc.).  A rich resource, this Wiki!  LionhardusCiampa 14:10, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  For the local name
Disputatio:Medium Aevum Hispanicum

message: In this short introduction to the Spanish middle ages, I am having trouble with elements such as the names of the Spanish caliphs, tribes and other words: :es:Abderramán, :es:Alhakén, :es:Almanzor (which I think it is Almansur), :es:Almorávides, :es:Almohades, :es:Muladí, :es:Mozárabe, etc. I'll look for these things in Old Spanish texts, which are the ones I have and will give us an approximate Latin version, but if anyone has any better clues, please help!--Xaverius 16:49, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lexicon Universale, there I found "Iacobus Almansor" by accident. It is not so easy to search there. --Alex1011 22:05, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :The Lexicon Universale calls Abderramán "Abderama", and Alhakén "Alhaca". --Jmb 03:02, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I also found "Almoravidae" and "Almohadae". --Jmb 03:18, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::See also the article "Mixtarabes".  --Jmb 03:25, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Gratias vobis ago! I had found Musarabitum for mozarabe--Xaverius 08:15, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic names
Disputatio:Tenor

message: "Tenor" is a perfectly appropriate term.  Perosi et al. used "contraltus, tenor, bassus," etc.  And frankly, "theatrum lyricum cantor vocis acuta" etc. etc. etc. is just plain absurd when one could say the same with five letters -- five letters which already form a Latin word! LionhardusCiampa 17:00, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probe dicis, amice. Examples of music notation document the use of the word tenor from medieval times continuously to the present. In medieval and some later music, however, it denotes not so much a vocal range as a contrapuntal function: that of "holding" (hence the name, 'the holder', qui tenet) the plainchant, against which the other voices sing—a function not unlike that of the chorale in J. S. Bach's chorale preludes. By Renaissance times, the tenor typically moved in the normal upper male range, with a bassus well below it, a superius above it, and a contratenor and/or an altus beside and sometimes a little below but more often a little above it. In the texture conceived vertically, it tended to stay more or less in the middle. IacobusAmor 17:26, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Right you are -- I had forgotten much of what you said.  RE the chorale in JSB, it is good to utter the term "cantus firmus," seeing as it's a very nice Latin one!  In any case, you also helped me to remember that long, long before Perosi -- Palestrina et al. -- they used tenor, bassus, etc.  Of course for the soprano it was usually discantus. Speaking of which: for soprano which is better, sopran or sopranus? LionhardusCiampa 17:46, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tenor
Disputatio:Finis terrae (praefectura Franciae)

message: there are more than this Finis Terrae. The Spanish :es:Finisterre is one, and the English :en:Land's End the other. Maybe the content should be moved to Finis Terrae (Francia) and this made into a discretiva?--Xaverius 16:20, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And don't confuse it with http://www.landsend.com/ and other land's ends! IacobusAmor 16:44, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Finies Terrarum
Disputatio:Claudius Ptolemaeus

message: Scilicet Ptolemaeus non fuit ‘pater geographiae’ ut antea Herodotus ‘pater’ fuit ‘historiae’. Hic enim fuit primus aut saltem unus e primis historiographis Graecis, ille tamen haudquaquam primus fuit geographus, sed potius ‘culmen’ geographiae Graecae, a multis geographis illustribus praecessus, ut - e.g. - Eratosthene Cyrenaeo. ‘Culmen’ igitur mihi videtur appellatio magis idonea. --Fabullus 16:48, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ‘pater geographiae’

message: Quae est versio Latina huius tituli Arabici? Almagest an Almagesta an Almageste? --Fabullus 16:52, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thesaurus linguae Graecae enumerat hunc librum sub nomine Syntaxis mathematica. Sed in libris antiquis reperio: Epitoma in Almagestum Ptolemaei (accusativus: 1496) et Almagestum Cl. Ptolemaei Pheludiensis Alexandrini, astronomorum principis, opus ingens ac nobile, omnes coelorum motus continens (Venice: Petrus Lichtenstein, 1515) (nominativus). Almagestum igitur. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:25, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Gratias tibi ago. --Fabullus 20:40, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Almagest
Disputatio:Missa

message: I think it's right to move the section of Tridentine Mass (Ordo Missae ...) in Vicifontes. Here we should write only descriptions and encyclopedia-like articles. Fontes alio loco sunt.
--Abaz 10:52, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gratias, Abaz. Removi ad . Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:41, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vicifontes

message: "Ecclesia Catholica duos ritos missae celebrandi permittuntur."
If so, please could someone briefly explain its construction?
Sunt tres aut quattuor errores 
Ecclesia catholica  duos( vel duo) ritus ( us/us<>us,i) missae celebrandae( gerundivus modus capit genus nominis) permittit ( via activa)
Aut Ab ecclesia Catholica duo ritus missae celebrandae permittuntur. --Marc mage 22:28, 27 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this sentence grammatically correct?

message: Eam mutavimus ut :en:Mass paene verbum pro verbo Latine reddatur:—Missa est celebratio Eucharistiae ut nominatur in ritibus Latinis Ecclesiae Catholica Romana, in Ecclesiis Catholicis Veteribus, in Anglo-Catholico Anglicanismi usu, et in nonnullis regionibus Lutheranis, civitatibus Scandinaviis Balticisque non exclusis. = The Mass is the Eucharistic celebration in the Latin liturgical rites of the Roman Catholic Church, in Old Catholic Churches, in the Anglo-Catholic tradition of Anglicanism, and in some largely High Church Lutheran regions, including the Scandinavian and Baltic countries. IacobusAmor 19:20, 18 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Prima commentarii sententia
Disputatio:Presbyter

message: It is better use the word sacerdos or the word presbyter to talk about a minister? E.g. Tu es sacerdos... Thanks.
--Abaz 17:27, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think sacerdos is like a priest who does rituals (In the CLC, a sacerdos takes the iecur of a agnus in some sort of pagan ritual). I think that Presbyter is safer when you're talking about a Christian. Harrissimo.
replies: text: ::Codex Iuris Canonici  et presbyterum et sacerdotem habet. --Alex1011 17:35, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Words lists sacerdos as "priest, priestess" (I have only heard priestess outside Christian contexts) and presbyter says that it is priest, with Christian in brackets. Harrissimo.
thread_title: Sacerdos versus Presbyter

message: Rectius videtur dicere presbyteratum esse primum sacerdotii gradum, episcopatum autem secundum et summum. Quoad constructionem “munus sanctificandi, id est, populo instructionem faciendum”, quomodo explicatur? Kyrios 07:03, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primus an secundus?
Disputatio:Caracalla

message: Shouldn't there be a discretiva for the Baths of Caracalla (Aquae Caracallae)? LionhardusCiampa 19:30, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Or is that what is meant by the Thermae Antoninianae? LionhardusCiampa 03:49, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :You got it. That's their Latin name. So I'm not sure whether a discretiva is really needed -- but I've no objection if you can decide how to word it! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:43, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
-----
Caracalla is born in 188, not in 186. Dead at 29, not at 31. Geoffrey Calabria 23:29, 27 Iunii 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caracalla
Disputatio:Steventon

message: The U.S. state "New Hampshire" is consistently called "Nova Hantescira."  However, http://comp.uark.edu/~mreynold/recint2.htm#H says "Hantonia."  What gives? LionhardusCiampa 22:24, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hantescira 

message: Is this an invented name? It seems a bit ridiculous for a small village. We shouldn't really invent place names anyway ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 01:11, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't explain why "ridiculous", but I meant because polis is the Greek word for "city". For a small village to call itself a city would be pompous.

text: This is an Anglo-Saxon name (in Domesday Book it was Stivetune). The -tune/-ton part means "farm or small enclosure". What the "stive/steven" part means I can't verify, but it is unlikely (I think) that it's the same as the forename "Stephen" because that is a Norman/French name. Well, many Normans and French held territories in England by the time of Domesday Book, but this particular village was still, at that time, held by a Saxon. Who wasn't called Stephen. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:36, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :May I respectfully play the Devil's advocate?  Though -polis indeed means city, what about Carlopoli of 1781 inhabitants? http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlopoli Even the municipality of Carlópolis in Brazil only has 14,000 residents. http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl%C3%B3polis Regarding the Saxon etymology, are you saying, then, that similarly small towns as Charleston and Thomaston were not named for their respective kings? If they were, I'm sure said kings would have been more than happy with the -polis!  Then again, I admit that "Thomasopolis" appears in no source. However you slice it, coming up with Latin names for non-Catholic areas is harder -- unless those areas were originally Roman. LionhardusCiampa 11:34, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm talking about a place named by Anglo-Saxons 1000 years ago, a "small village"  (en:wiki). I don't follow your argument about Saxon etymology: you seem to think there is (1) a "Charleston" named for an Anglo-Saxon king; and (2) a "Thomaston" named for an Anglo-Saxon king. I think not; in fact I can't find a king Thomas anywhere in the world, ever! What I said has nothing to do with the naming of places in the Americas, many centuries later.

text: But the main point, that I stick to, is that we shouldn't invent place names! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:04, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stephanopolis
Disputatio:Olympia hiemalia 1980

message: Why Placidus Lacus and not Lacus Placidus? LionhardusCiampa 22:35, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nescio! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 23:35, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: : Forsitan is, qui Placidus Lacus scripsit, exemplo usus sit Novo Eboraco, cui idem vocum ordo est. Autumo igitur de analogia agi, falsa quidem. --Neander 00:46, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Novum Eboracum is a bad example.  Novus is one of those adjectives (parvus, vetus, and a couple of others) that traditionally come before the noun, but they are the EXCEPTION. My vote is for Lacus Placidus. LionhardusCiampa 02:03, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::: Mine too (as I hinted to). --Neander 02:09, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ordo Verborum
Disputatio Formulae:Deschamps

message: Nice reference, thanks -- but there doesn't seem to be an online version at GoogleBooks, just a reference. Am I wrong?
replies: text: Yes, I am wrong. I just needed to click "search in this book". Sorry. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:37, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is there an online version?
Disputatio:Summorum Pontificum

message: Quid significat  ? modo indomito ? Credo esse opinionem, non factum. --Marc mage 21:10, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: insubmisse ? 

message: Pictura hostiae quae sacerdos consecrabat Prece Eucharistica II in Forma Ordinaria habet nihil facere cum littera apostolica "Summorum Pontificum" ergo ablegabo.
68.102.205.114 05:06, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictura
Disputatio:LOL

message: We could invite Latinizations that try to catch the spirit of LOL (though most likely not its exact sense). I'll start the auction by offering: Lallo Ob Lusum. IacobusAmor 23:57, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Labo Ob Leporem (stretching it...) Harrissimo 01:06, 3 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).
replies: text: :Bloody hell, LOL has reached even here! lol .....--Xaverius 09:34, 3 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: LOL Latine =?

message: Olim pueri erant
nec viri nec infantes
qui semper "lol" dicebant
de quaque re lolantes.
Lolabant de caballis,
lolabant de ovibus,
lolabant et de rattis, 
lolabant de omnibus.
Lolare sentit erus
et quaesit quid lolarent,
lolantes responderunt
"Lolosum est lolare!"
lol--146.83.180.2 20:37, 16 Octobris 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lolare lolavisse lolatum 

message: De: "LOL est abbreviatio vulgariorum vocabulorum interretialium Anglicorum."—It isn't just a  shortening (abbreviatio,), but a particular kind of shortening: an acronymum. IacobusAmor 19:39, 28 Martii 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Definitio
Disputatio:Salvator Dalí

message: * Maior pars huius paginae e Vicipaedia Anglica reddita est.
thread_title:  Fontes 

message: Addidi duas imagines pro tempore, sed fortasse aliae sunt praeferendae. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:40, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Macte pro pagina!
Disputatio:Schola Praeparatoria Sancti Ignatii

message: This name can't be right! Do we have a source? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:04, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've fixed it up a bit, but the title needs a redirect. It's surely a schola ('prep [scil. school]'), not an universitas. IacobusAmor 13:21, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

text: But doesn't college prep imply preparatory school FOR university, hence the ablative universitate?
replies: text: :OK, but (a) the title needs a noun in the nominative, (b) the ablative doesn't normally give the sense "for", (c) Preparatoria is misspelt, (d) we aren't supposed to invent names. Unless the place has an established Latin name, we should move it to its English name. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:03, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I sent an email asking for help to one of the Profs in their language department, Anne Barclay-Hicks; Maybe she can find out for us.--Rafaelgarcia 18:36, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::My (d) above was wrong in this case: we normally Latinise the names of institutions. So, since we haven't heard of an official Latin name, I have now Latinised it as best I can. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 02:07, 22 Maii 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nomen
Disputatio:Societas Manufollii Universitatis Oxoniensis

message: Si Anglicum verbum 'game' est ludus, -i, m., cur est societatis nomen Universitas Oxoniensis Manuludium Societas, non Universitatis Oxoniensis Manuludi Societas vel Manuludi Societas Oxoniensis? IacobusAmor 16:42, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Puto optime Hispanice scribere ut mihi intellegas. Creé Manuludium para balonmano en el mismo modo en que pediludium es fútbol. Luego, como el nombre del club es una aposición (Oxford University Handball Club) pensé que sería mejor hacerlo en Latín como una aposición antes que usar extraños genitivos que no hay en el nombre inglés ("Oxford  University's Handball Club)--Xaverius 16:51, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Ahora habría que mover esto a Universitas Oxoniensis Manufollium Societas (Manuludium => Manufollium), but now you have made me doubt of the convenience of the name.--Xaverius 17:11, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::If you can slip into Spanish, I can slip into English!

text: ::English is oddly receptive of nouns in apposition: Latin definitely isn't. You can't do that here, I think. You also have to keep in mind that the word order in an English noun phrase using apposition would normally be totally reversed in the nearest equivalent Latin phrase. I would say "Societas Manufollii Universitatis Oxoniensis". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:23, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Sorry, I just did not know how to say or use "aposición" in English... Then the word order in Latin should be closer to the Spanish? "club de Balonmano [de la] Universidad de Oxford" which would turn out to be... "Societas Manufollii Universitatis Oxoniensis"... I take my hat off--Xaverius 17:28, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::I would say Spanish is a much better guide than English to the way a Latin speaker would put a phrase together. Aren't you lucky? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:32, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::I have been Anglicised upt to a certain point where it is dificult to go back--Xaverius 17:43, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::Credo verbum simplex esse follis, -is, m., non follium, -ii, n.; ergo recte societas manufollis 'handball club', ¿no? IacobusAmor 18:30, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Societatis nomen
Disputatio:Samara (flumen)

message: I wonder about the need to change to Somena. Samara seems to be the classical name; is Somena much used? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:43, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was because of Graesse's preference for Somena and its relation to the modern French word. I have moved it back now, however, since all of the sources point at Samara including Deschamps, who obviously knew his French geography. Harrissimo.
replies: text: :Why Graesse prefers that form, goodness knows! Thanks for changing again so quickly -- Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:52, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I think I was wrong now. "Samara" is not really the classical form -- it is a later reconstruction based on the name "Samarobriva". See Valesius. However, it is quite commonly used by more recent sources, as the footnotes show. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:10, 30 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Nomen
Disputatio:Athenae

message: Alex, cur mutasti numeros ut ad stilum SI non congruant? IacobusAmor 15:01, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: in meo computatro signa legere non potui. Quadrata fuerunt. --Alex1011 15:24, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Alium quid temptavi: quid vides nunc, Alex? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:27, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Nunc video (lacunas pro punctis). --Alex1011 15:32, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Ergo & nbsp;  bene efficit; & thinsp;  peius efficit (et Aleci et mihi!) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:04, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Ita est. Dependet de genere computri vel systematis. Domu iBook ambo videre possum. --Alex1011 19:16, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Numeri

message: Salve! Nonne melius iacent? - Bavarese (disputatio) 12:57, 27 Septembris 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Certe! Tibi gratias ago, modo mutavi.--Utilo (disputatio) 15:13, 27 Septembris 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Athenae ...iacet?
Disputatio:Ordo Hospitalis

message: English and French wikis say that Raymond du Puy was the second master, not the first. I don't know!
But I know he wasn't connected with le Puy-en-Velay (Anicium Vellavorum), so I have removed that link. The only Latin name I have yet found for him is Raimundus, magister domus Hospitalis in Willelmus Tyrensis, Historia rerum in partibus transmarinis gestarum 17; but others will turn up, no doubt. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:09, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
Raymond was the first grand master but the founder of the Order was Blessed Gerard. -- Usor:83.28.42.70 11 Maii 2008
thread_title: First (or second) master