Disputatio:Lautus

message: Lautum testudinem non esse satis constat. Lautus est instrumentum chordophonale novum, nervis metallicis intentum (Laouto, Laúd). Testudo vetus Lauti avus haberi decet, omnino a lauto differt (vide nexum ad articulos Anglice vel Theodisce de testudine scriptos ducentem). Articulum de testudine scriptum equidem in locum artculi de Lauto scriptum ponere nolui neque eum delevi. Meo animo in articulum de testidine scriptum nexus tribuatur ad articulum de Lauto scriptum ducens. Mathiaroselius 11:52, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Two points (Anglice because I'm in a hurry): ¶ The testudo was at least two different things: in the Classical vocabulary, an ancient Greek lyre; and in the humanists' vocabulary, a sixteenth-century lute. ¶ As with the names of plants & animals, we have an impossibly small & chronologically inconsistent Latin vocabulary for musical instruments, and this vocabulary is wholly inadequate to accommodate the modern scientific classification. Here, for example, is an abbreviated taxonomy of group 321, the lute family (yes, organologically speaking, ALL of these are lutes):
replies: text: ::321.1 Bow lutes (pluriarcs)
replies: text: ::321.2 Yoke lutes
replies: text: :::321.21 Bowl lyres

text: :::321.22 Box lyres

text: ::321.3 Handle lutes
replies: text: :::321.31 Spike lutes
replies: text: ::::321.311 Spike bowl lutes

text: ::::321.312 Spike box lutes

text: ::::321.313 Spike tube lutes

text: :::321.32 Necked lutes
replies: text: ::::321.321 Necked bowl lutes (e.g., mandolin, theorbo, balalaika)

text: ::::321.322 Necked box lutes  (e.g., violin, viol, guitar)

text: :::321.33 Tanged lutes

text: (FYI: Group 322 is the harp family, and group 323 is the harp-lute family.) Arguments about terminology must face the facts of modern science. Hundreds of taxonomic groups (of which you see thirteen listed above) need Latin names, generating possibly scores of disambiguation pages; I'd be glad to provide initial guesses in an article on musical instruments, but time is lacking right now. IacobusAmor 12:54, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: : "...and this vocabulary is wholly inadequate to accommodate the modern scientific classification." I couldn't agree more! --Neander 14:11, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
Accommodating the modern scientific classification was not my plan, to put it simple. There are many instruments that musicologists classify as lutes (and lutenists don't), indeed. I wanted to write about the Western European lute that was in use from the 11th through 18th centuries (as I'm a lutenist and happen to be in command of some Latin). That's what I specified in the introductory remarks. In order to do so, I'm using humanistic Latin, yes. I see no other way.
I was planning to expand the article with regard to changing tunings of the lute during the 17th century. I think I better wait you experts have decided whether or not a Latin article on the lute should exist in Wikipedia. Mathiaroselius 18:08, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)

text: Your article is very welcome. My reaction was a general one, not pertaining to your theme. It's very hard to discuss modern orchestral instruments in Latin terms. For example, when once searching for trumpet and trombone in my favourite dictionaries, what I got is tuba, for both! Fidicula (not to mention Fidiculae in Vicipaedia) isn't too specific, either. Etc. Salvere iubens Neander 19:06, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :Regarding trumpet and trombone : in modern taxonomy, they're both trumpets, as are alphorns, bugles, baritones, cornets, didjeridus, French horns, oliphants, serpents, shofars, sousaphones, and blown conchshells. A trumpet, according to the standard definition (Sachs & von Hornbostel), is ANY musical instrument in which "the airstream passes through the player's vibrating lips, so gaining intermittent access to the air column which is to be made to vibrate." IacobusAmor 19:35, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and btw the first sentence of the article Lautus, Lautus (Arabice: العود al-`ūd) est instrumentum musicum Aevi Medii, quod hodie quoque psallitur contains three mistakes.
* The Arabic العود al-`ūd is an entirely different instrument than the Lauto, but much more similar the the lute.
* The Lauto is not a medieval instrument, it was developed during the 19th century.
* Inferentially, it cannot be said that it is still being playing today.
I'm not saying that everything about the Lauto is wrong, just trying to make clear what it's all about. Just because Lautus sound similar to lute, doesn't mean that Lautus is the lute. The common Latin term for the Western European lute up to 19th century thesises was testudo. Mathiaroselius 18:20, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)

text: :Excuse me for butting in, since I am ignorant of the nature of the instruments discussed. However, has anyone ever suggested that a Latin article about the lute should not exist? I think they were just discussing the name and the indiscriminacy with which it has been used...which seems to be the same point you are making--Rafaelgarcia 18:40, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
I see. You're probably right. Thank you. But I'm still puzzled, wondering where this will lead. Mathiaroselius 18:54, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)

text: Have you not ever contributed to a wiki before? Remember to assume mutual benevolence on the part of editors.

text: Often confusion and much discussion arises from a lack of external sources to which people can refer for consistent terminology. Thus, from the theses naming lutes testudines, it would be helpful to cite one or two of them as sources and give a couple of quotes in which the name is defined or profitably discussed. I assume such would be common things in theses. It is natural that an article about something should discuss the origin of the term, and explain any synonyms out there. For example, just now I find several sources that say cithara in ancient times was the term for a lute. More likely, from the picture, a lute is considered a species of cithara. But I don't know much about musical instruments.--Rafaelgarcia 19:04, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :In modern taxonomy, the ancient Greek kithara, the ancient Egyptian kithara, the ancient Greek lyra, the (Welsh) crwth, and the medieval rotta (musical instrument, not to be confused with the rotta that was a medieval Italian dance) are all members of the lute family: they're all lutes. The lyra required by Haydn in several compositions is actually a hurdy-gurdy. The naming of musical instruments is a mess. IacobusAmor 19:24, 15 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Taxinomia chordophonorum