Disputatio:Octavius Mirbeau

message: Movi e Mirbellus ad Mirbeau. Si erravi, da veniam! Si placet, adde fontem nominis Mirbellus. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:03, 25 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I modified some of the title translations too. But just wondering: how does le Foyer end up as Caritas? --Iustinus 20:08, 25 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

text: No idea. Le Journal d'une femme de chambre is said to be good. Le Jardin des supplices soon palls. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:38, 25 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
Le sujet du Foyer, c'est précisément la charité : il s'agit d'un foyer prétendument charitable. Golgotha - qui est d'ailleurs le titre des traductions en allemand et en russe - signifie Colline du crâne, d'où la traduction littérale que j'ai proposée. Reverendus renvoie à la traduction italienne, Reverendo Jules, car il ne s'agit que d'une appellation courante pour désigner un prêtre, et non du titulaire d'un poste d'abbé. Je tiens naturellement à Mirbellus : les adjectifs mirbellien, mirbellian, mirbelliano, mirbellianisch ont été faits à partir de la racine latine du nom propre. Merci pour vos contributions. Ottavio

text: Monsieur Ottavio, merci pour nous avoir explique ce que vous avez écrit. Allors, pour "Golgotha" autant que pour "Calvaire", il faut se souvenir que ces noms viennent du Bible, et allors il y a déjà des noms Latins, e.g. Matt. 27:33 "et venerunt in locum qui dicitur Golgotha quod est Calvariae locus" Ainsi, il n'est pas du tout necessaire de proposer du sense litéral un nouveau nom. Pour abbé, c'est un bon argument (mais, enfin, récemment j'ai vu plusieres refererances en Latin au "Abbas Petrus"). Pour Le Foyer, est-ce que La Charité est le soustitre? Le titre dans une autre langue? Our est-ce que vous le proposez parce que c'est difficil de trouver un mot pour foyer? Et, enfin, Mirbellus: bien sur que c'est un nom logique, mais voyez, s.v.p. Vicipaedia:Translatio Nominum Propriorum. Notre règle ici, c'est qu'en générale, éspeciellement pour les personnes assez récents, il faut latiniser le prénom, mais pas le nom de la famille, sauf que si la personne a déjà un nom latin (ou choisi par soi-même, ou bien accepté par les autres historiquement), et allors sans une citation, c'est mieux de dire "Mirbeau." Merci aussi à vous, pour vos contributions, et j'éspère d'avoir aider! --Iustinus 07:33, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
Ave, Iustine. Vous avez tout à fait raison pour Golgotha : la traduction littérale était a joke, un clin d'oeil aux lecteurs cultivés qui connaissent le sens littéral du mot Golgotha. La traduction anglaise du Foyer, par Richard Hand, qui doit paraître cette année aux Presses de l'Université de Cardiff, est Charity ; il a l'avantage d'être plus clair que la traduction littérale de Foyer en allemand (Heim), en italien (Focolare) et en russe (Obchag). Quant à Mirbellus, je persiste à penser que c'est the right translation : on trouve aussi Carolus Baudelarius, Nicolaus Machiavellus, Franciscus Rabelaesus, Dantes Alagherius, Gualterus de Castellione, Franciscus Muscoius, Iohannes de Plano Carpini, Christophorus Richerius Thorigneus... et Dominicus Villepinensis ! Mais je ne sais comment faire pour revenir au titre initial, Octavius Mirbellus. Vale. Ottavio

text: Ottavio, je ne dis pas qu'l ne faut jamais utliser des noms Latinisé, seulment qu'il ne faut pas les créer soi-même. Machiavellus, Rabelaesus, Alagherius etc. sont des noms déjà attestés. Que Le foyer soit Caritas comme vous avez dit. Est-ce qu'on dit "the right translation" vraiement en français, ou est-ce que vous faites "a joke" sur le fait que nous les anglophons, on dit l'éxpression française "le mot juste" même en anglais? Il me faut m'endormir. On peut parler plus demain. Félicitations sure le nouveau compte! --Iustinus 08:17, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Si l'adjectif mirbellien existe, voilà une attestation indirecte, quand même ... Si nous décidons de revenir au titre Mirbellus, ça peut se faire; il nous faut l'aide d'un administrateur, c'est tout. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:07, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Mais, enfin, je croyerais que l'alternacion entre -eau et -ellien soit regulier. Je ne sais pas s'il y en a plus, étant anglophon, mais s'il me fallait dans une conversation construir un nouveau adjectif de Moreau, ou un autre tel nom, je divinerais une forme similaire. C'est juste, ou non? --Iustinus 18:34, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
Summary for those who can't read French: the main issue that remains unresolved is whether or not Mirbellus is a valid Latin name for Mirbeau. Andrew first moved the article to Octavius Mirbeau, in accordance with our naming policy. Ottavio, the original author, argued that the French adjective mirbellien implies Latin Mirbellus. Andrew considers this good enough. I asked if my assumption that -eau > -ellien is a productive word formation was correct. Anyone else care to proffer opinions? --Iustinus 18:34, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

text: There's Latin pellis 'hide, skin' > French peau 'hide, skin'. ¶ On another front, there's French mirabelle 'kind of plum; plum brandy'. IacobusAmor 19:17, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :To be clear: that is not in question. Of course -eau historically derives from -ellus and similar endings. The question is whether an adjective in -ellien really presupposes a Latin form, or to put it more directly, whether it constitutes an attestation of a Latin name. --Iustinus 19:26, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::So you've got French mirbellien < French Mirbeau and are asking if the French adjective supports the Latin noun Mirbellus. And you've got English Shavian < English Shaw and might ask if the English adjective supports the Latin noun Shavius. Analogies! IacobusAmor 20:46, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Good point, I did make that argument. But really what I'm trying to do here is refer it to the comunity to decide. --Iustinus 22:20, 26 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
Bonjour. Je vois que Mirbellus soulève une disputatio inattendue et cocasse. Je m'en réjouis. Le problème n'est pas de savoir si Mirbeau vient de Mirbellus, mais si, quand on traduit son nom en latin, il est linguistiquement correct d'employer Mirbellus. C'est mon avis. On a bien traduit Charles Baudelaire par Carolus Baudelarius, et Dominique de Villepin par Dominicus Villepinensis, ce qui me semble aussi tout à fait judicieux. Il n'y a donc aucune raison de ne pas faire de même pour Octavius Mirbellus. Autres analogies : l'adjectif rimbaldien a été fabriqué sur Rimbaldus, d'où est supposé venir le nom de famille d'Arthur Rimbaud ; et giralducien sur Giraldux, d'où est censé procéder Giraudoux. Ce sont des fabrications linguistiquement appropriées. Have a nice day. Ottavio

text: Actually, Baudelarius and Villepinensis are also against our current standard (unless the Latin words are attested somewhere). I changed Mirbellus to Mirbeau because I happened to be looking through :Categoria:Scriptores; I might just as well have changed those two as well. Let me set out the problem as I see it:

text: According to our rules, we look for attestations of a Latin word before using it -- especially in titles -- because Vicipaedia is supposed to follow authority, not make authority.

text: Ottavio raises a general issue. The coining of a personal or place-name adjective, in a Romance language, is often based on a hypothetical Latin form. (Even sometimes in English, as with "Shavian".) The existence of the adjective therefore gives a kind of authority to the underlying form (although it didn't previously exist, and may not be found in print even now). Should we, in general, accept this kind of authority (explaining our decision in a footnote)? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:17, 27 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
L'adjectif mirbellien est couramment employé depuis une douzaine d'années, notamment parmi les mirbeaulogues, et donne lieu à des traductions en anglais et en italien : mirbellian et mirbelliano. En voici quelques-unes recensées par google, parmi les textes mis en ligne. Il convient, of course, d'y ajouter des quantités d'articles parus dans diverses préfaces et revues, notamment les Cahiers Octave Mirbeau :
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&q=mirbellien&btnG=Recherche+Google&meta=
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&q=mirbellian&btnG=Rechercher&meta=
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&q=mirbelliano&btnG=Recherche+Google&meta=
Shaw n'est pas un mot d'origine latine et ne se prête pas du tout à une latinisation. Mais, s'il fallait absolument fabriquer un adjectif latin à partir de son nom, il me semble que ce devrait être chavianus...
Ottavio (27 janvier, midi)

text: Oui. Excusez-moi d'avoir écrit en anglais. Le problème pour Vicipaedia est réel, et c'est comme suit: est-ce que l'existence des ces formes (par exemple, "mirbellien" en français, "Shavian" en anglais) nous donne le droit d' inventer des formes en latin? En principe, une oeuvre de référence doit décrire et ne doit pas inventer. Alors, la réponse facile est: non, l'existence de ces formes en français et en anglais ne nous donne pas le droit d'inventer une forme latine. Mais peut-être on trouvera que, dans des cas pareils, il vaut mieux varier ou réécrire la règle. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:20, 27 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Ottavio, je crois que nous vous avons trompé avec l'anglais. Pardonez-nous, je vous en prie. IacobusAmor (Jacques l'Amour? ;) ) et moi, on ne s'est pas battu vraiement, seulement qu'on s'est mécompris, je crois. Et on a dit la même chose là que vois ici: il ne s'agit pas de l'évolution liguistique (ni de l'éxistance de adjectif), seulment de la question d'attestation contre invention. Et "Shavian" éxiste en anglais et paraît d'être basé sur une Shavius, autant que les noms français que vous avez fournis (le Sh n'est pas Latin, mais pas grand chose. Ch, enfin, ni dans le latin classiqe ni écclésiastique se prononce comme le sh d'anglais et le ch français). Et merci pour les autre formes, qui me semblent beaucoup plus persuasives que Mirbellien, du fait qu'on ne peut pas les imaginer sans recours au latin. Il faut que la communauté de la Wikipedia latin décide cette issue. --Iustinus 18:16, 27 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
cyrillien : Cyrillus :: mirbellien : Mirbellus, or sabellien : Sabellius :: mirbellien : Mirbellius? If we don't have an attested form for this man, we ought to go with VP:TNP rather than decide arbitrarily which it should be.  —Myces Tiberinus 19:04, 27 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
Good point. I can't discover what this botanist's vernacular name was. Can you?

text: : Can't be certain.  Though there is Domenico Nano Mirabelli with the presumably-cognate name, who appears both as Mirabellus and Mirabellius...  —Mucius Tever 00:55, 29 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

text: Added a moment later: But Sabellius is not the usual form, anyway. I just searched the PHI CD-ROM. Lots of Sabellus, Sabella, Sabelli; only one Sabellius. I would think it normal for a proper noun in -us to have relatives / derivatives in -ius and -ianus, the base form still being -us. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:39, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Got it out of a French dictionary.  Sabellien: "Conforme à la doctrine de Sabellius." and "Sectateur de l'hérésie de Sabellius.".   Thing is, these derived forms are often ambiguous as to the original.  To use English examples, we know that Christian and Julian come from Christus and Julius respectively only from history—for a new name, like 'Orwellian', say, we have no clue what the reconstructed original ought to be.  (Sabellian, then, is a great example I suppose, -us being more common in general, and -ius being the actual name of the founder of Sabellianism.) —Mucius Tever 00:55, 29 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

message: Tant qu'à chercher des noms attestés pour ces auteurs français (c'est bon pour Wikipedia!):
*Beaudelaire: Il y a sur WorldCat 2 livres listé sous le latin et le nom Beaudelaire: 1933 Vers latins et 1941 [Collection of sketches]. Mais il n'est pas du tout claire que ses livres contiennent de l'oeuvre baudelarien en latin. Il y a, bizarrement, une attestation de Carolus Baudelarius, je sais pas pourquoi, dans ce PDF.
*Rimbaud: il y a sur WorldCat seulement "Rimbaud opus: part two" de Henry Miller, mais enfin je crois que peut-être le mot opus et le seul Latin dans ce livre. Google. Une drôle de page.
*Giraudoux: Je ne trouve rien. Par google on trouve seulment ce page, out Giraldux paraît d'être seulement pour attrahir des cherches mal épéllé pour Giraldus.
*Et, honerairement, Shaw, même s'il n'est pas français: vraiement, il paraît qu'il y a assez plus d'évidence pur ce cas-ci. Voir Google
--Iustinus 17:58, 27 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Voir aussi disputatio:Georgius Bernardus Shavius. --Iustinus 19:01, 27 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excursus: Beaudelaire, et al. 

message: Thanks a lot to Myces Tiberinus. Because he found Celestinus Mirbellus, who was a canonist. Mirbellus does exist !!! Look at  Celestini Mirbelli ... Commentarius ad fragmenta legum Arrii Menandri de re militari http://books.google.com/books?vid=0tPtQA2vS32ye8n4jw5B&id=YesFAAAAIAAJ&q=mirbelli&dq=mirbelli&hl=fr&pgis=1
And Celestini Mirbelli ... Oratio, princeps utrum literis excultus, vel non esse debeat?: habita publice pro legalium studiorum inflauratione anni M.DC. LXXXIV. Mensis Novemb. die XV.
And Mirbellus, Celestinus, Coloniae Allobrogum. Apud Samvelem de Torunes,. 1686.
The most interesting for me and for "mirbeaulogists", that's the christian name Celestinus, because the diarist, in the most famous Mirbeau's novel, Le Journal d'une femme de chambre (Diary of a chambermaid), is called... Célestine ! Is it a pure accident ? I don't think so : because Octavius Mirbellus was educated by the Jesuits, in their Saint-François-Xavier college, in Vannes (Brittany) !
There is another Mirbellus : Mirbellus 1776 1854 , translation of Brisseau-Mirbel, C.-F. (Charles-François), 1776-1854 . Look at http://libraryopac.union.edu:2082/search/aMiramax+Films./amiramax+films/-3,-1,0,B/browse
http://catnyp.nypl.org:2082/search/aMirbakhtyar,+Shahla./amirbakhtyar+shahla/10,-1,0,B/browse
Now that is quite sure : Mirbellus is not an invention ! Ottavio (28.01.07, 10.35)
replies: text: :Of course 'Mirbellus' exists.  The problem is that just because one person Latinized their name a certain way, doesn't mean that another person's name is Latinized the same way.  For example Iacobus Cassini was the son of Ioannes Dominicus Cassinus — one of them Latinized their name, the other didn't.  Many people, even while writing in Latin, didn't always Latinize their surnames. VP:TNP is the rule that says if we don't know this particular person used that form of their surname or had it used of them, we don't invent or choose a name for them. —Mucius Tever 11:43, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Well, you're right, Myces. However, he does have the adjective mirbellien used of him -- that's one thing -- and the adjective presupposes a Latin name Mirbellus -- that's another thing -- and you have shown the Latin name to exist -- that's the third thing -- and, as Ottavio argues, the Latin name was probably known to him -- that's the fourth thing. If he had signed the Latin verses he wrote at school, I am now prepared to bet that he would have signed Octavius Mirbellus. I think we should acknowledge that the form Mirbellus is appropriate. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:30, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Well, the particular form mirbellien, as I pointed out, is ambiguous between Mirbellus and Mirbellius; both names, as I pointed out, have been known to exist; and leaving the surname un-Latinized, as I pointed out, has been a common practice for quite a long time.  The only thing that pushes for Mirbellus in particular is Ottavio's insistence.  —Mucius Tever 00:36, 29 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::And since the text advertises both versions of the name smack-dab at the beginning ["Octavius Mirbellus (Francogallice: Octave Mirbeau)"], and since there is (or will be) a redirect from one version to the other, does it matter? IacobusAmor 13:44, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
Tout est bien qui finit bien : All's Well That Ends Well ! Thanks to eveybody for that exciting latina disputatio, between both sides of Atlantic Ocean. Ottavio

text: I'm afraid we're not quite done yet, Ottavio :(

text: For starters, I still say that whereas Giralducien and Shavian are plainly based on hypothesized or attested Latin forms, Mirbellien is not so clear. I mean, take of the Mir- in this name, and you have beau. If you wanted to add -ien to beau, would you say beauien? No, of course not, you would add the suffix to the feminine belle. It seems to me that Mirbellien is entirely explainable within the phonology of French.

text: Myces (or should I say Mucius) correctly points out that the existance of a Latin form of a surname is not usually taken to be sufficient proof, because historically not everyone with the same name has Latinized it the same way (and by the way, Myces' point about Mirbellus vs. Mirbellius seems to have been lost in the shuffle.), nor indeed has every one who wrote in Latin Latinized their surname at all! If you look hard enough, you will be able to find Latin forms for just about every modern surname, but in fact since about the 19th most people only Latinized their given names. Since this point is important, let me repeat it in French just to be clear: depuis le XIX° siecle, les auteurs du latin ont, pour le plupart, latinisé les prénoms seulement, et pas les noms de famille (à moins, quant à soi mêmes et leur contemporaires).

text: Iacobus asks why this matters, given that the French name is also given. Well, the vernacular name should ALWAYS be given, if it is known, but that is not the point. The point is that we want to avoid names made up by random users, and stick to Latin names that are actually attested. It is already very difficult to convince newbies that this is important, so we need to be careful not to let random ones through.
replies: text: :Re "depuis le XIX° siecle, les auteurs du latin ont, pour le plupart, latinisé les prénoms seulement, et pas les noms de famille (à moins, quant à soi mêmes et leur contemporaires)." ---> Mais voyez le compositeur célèbre Jean Sibelius: le prénom c'est français—et le nom de famille, latin ! IacobusAmor 02:09, 29 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Tu sais bien, Jacques l'Amour, que c'est autre chose. Je parle des noms qui paraissent dans les oeuvres latins de cette ère, pas des noms vernaculaires en général. Mais, enfin, c'est vrai que beaucoup des noms de famille européens sont déjà en forme latins, tel comme Sibelius, Lampenius, Arrhenius, etc. Nota bene que ceux sont pour le plupart des noms scandinaves (dans ce cas, y compris la Finlande). Selon moi, tels noms doivent être déclinés, étants déjà plus ou moins Latins. Mais comme j'ai dit: ça ne pertient pas vraiement à notre soujet ici. --Iustinus 04:44, 29 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

text: Now, despite the vehemence of my arguments above, I am not that strongly opposed to Mirbellus or Mirbellius, if the community feels that it is the right way to go. I just want to make sure that everyone is clear on why this case is so liminal. And of course, obviously, if we do go with a Latinized form, there should be a footnote explaining where we got this name, and requesting that if anyone knows of actual attestations, they should add them.

text: --Iustinus 18:27, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :"entirely explicable within the phonology of French": not really. Such formations presuppose the existence of an ancestral or learned language, available for grammatical cannibalisation, back there somewhere. Just the same sorts of things happen in Hindi, based on the fact that Sanskrit is back there, waiting to be used by learned or antiquarian neologists.

text: :Yes, it is a very borderline case. Footnote? oh, yes, agreed. Crucial in this case. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:56, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

text: :It seems to me that one doesn't really need any linguistic or classical training to notice that -eau and -el(le) alternate in French. --Iustinus 20:14, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Can the linguist and the encyclopaedist agree? This is a tough one. I like Andrew's 5 points of logic to bet that his name would have been Octavius Mirbellus in his school compositions. However, the editor in me sees no reason to have the page go under that name, nor even mention it (unless to say, id est latine "Mirbellus") in the article, unless we have an attestation. I side with the encyclopaedic approach here. We can't willy nilly decide when to latinize. This is why we have policy pages. While we are at it, Baudelarius ought to be moved to Baudelaire, as well as the other case above which Andrew mentioned.--Ioshus (disp) 21:12, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

text: :I have a feeling we won't get much further, and I have a fancy, instead of extending the discussion, for writing the article on Petrus Louÿs (always one of my favourites).

text: :Having started the whole thing by moving the article to Mirbeau, I would now express myself as weak Mirbellus (with footnote) because (a) the name has been shown to exist (b) whatever Justinus may say, a starred modern Latin form *Mirbellus does underlie the French (etc.) adjectival forms (c) our local expert, Ottavio, is in favour of it. I think Vicipaedia in real borderline cases should tilt approximately 1 degree in favour of the opinions of local experts (who write it, after all). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:34, 29 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Perhaps my intuition has been thrown off by my own linguistic and classical training, but I still don't see any necessity for Latin there. But, speaking of local experts, you do live in France ;)

text: ::By the way, highly germain to this discussion, please see the topics I added last night to Disputatio Vicipaediae:Translatio nominum propriorum.

text: ::--Iustinus 17:40, 29 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::My duo nummi: I'm a a local expert on how horrible the traffic is around DC (and let me tell you, it's awful), and a general expert on the amount of games of tetris and chess you can play while procrastinating for papers (a hell of a lot!). Of the subjects with which I am even competent beyond average, French historical philology is extremely low on the list. Of the subjects with which I am remotely competent, the life and times of Octavius Mirbeau is nonexistent. I am weak support for Mirbeau, only for why do we need latin if there never was latin? However the case for the possibility/probability of the latin has been argued sufficiently in this case, so I certainly won't grumble if it goes to Mirbellus.--Ioshus (disp) 21:45, 29 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Thinking of certain French plums (mirabelles), I wonder about Mirabellus (four syllables); but not having a dog in that fight, I'll stay at home and be quiet. Why do we seek attestations anyway? Surely it's to guide us, to stand as authorities on how to Latinize non-Latin words, to serve as patterns for newly encountered terms. IacobusAmor 02:50, 30 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Mirbellus does exist !'''

message: If Latin is a living language (and it is, or will be), it wants to adapt non-Latin words to its own morphology, just as other languages do. In English, we don't do much declining, but we do have a plural morpheme, and we apply it where we can, whether the original language is happy about it or not: one Bangladesh, two Bangladeshes; one Bangladeshi, two Bangladeshis; one Derry, two Derrys; one Islamabad, two Islamabads; one Koizumi, two Koizumis; one Liguria, two Ligurias; one Mainz, two Mainzes; one Malmedy, two Malmedys; one Prodi, two Prodis. Other tongues may twist themselves into disapproving knots if they wish, but we ignore them: they may "own" the root of a word, but they don't own our morphology. Surely its the same with other languages. Browsing in variously languaged wikipedias suggests a rule: languages that decline nouns adopt foreign terms unchanged in the nominative (or its equivalent), but then apply their own morphologies to oblique cases. I've checked "American" names in the Polish and Finnish wikipedias, and both those languages seem to do that—as, indeed, English does with non-English words (see the examples listed above). What do other languages do? IacobusAmor 02:50, 30 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cummi, corban, astu, cusuc, zenith... we don't really need to look at other languages, when there are plenty of indeclinable loan words already in Latin. --Iustinus 02:59, 30 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :My favorite indeclinable is Abudefduf, a genus of damselfishes. IacobusAmor 03:45, 30 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

text: Harrius Potter, for those looking for precedent, does this with many names, e.g. Voldemort, Voldemortis; Norbert, Norberti.  I'm not entirely sure I enjoy it, though.  Of course English is also inordinately fond of holding on to "original" inflections — one locus, two loci; one atrium, two atria; he's a fiancé, she's a fiancée; one kitsune, two kitsune.  —Mucius Tever 00:44, 8 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: When in doubt: apply Latin morphology only to oblique cases?