Disputatio:Michael Gorbačëv

message: Michael, Michaelis is perfectly fine Latin...--Ioscius (disp) 05:38, 17 Iulii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to know.  The spelling of his last name still seems to be in contention.  I don't know any Russian. Montivagus 05:41, 17 Iulii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Ought to ask our resident expert, Usor:Alexander Gerashchenko...--Ioscius (disp) 06:08, 17 Iulii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Possibile, nomen scribendum est sicut Gorbaciov vel Gorbatsiov? -- Alexander Gerascenco 08:34, 26 Iulii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::The ISO transliteration is Gorbačëv, so our norm says it should be Gorbacev. Myself I don't like this norm very much, but (for Slavic Cyrillic names at least) it is always better than copying the name from English! /t͡ʃ/ is a sibilant that Latin doesn't have; if you want to replace it, use letters that are sibilants (in some pronunciations and in some positions at least), such as c, cs, cz, tc, ts (the Greek solution), tsh, tz, but definitely not ch, which is a velar and has nothing to do with /t͡ʃ/. I am not against copying English always: I can imagine a hypothetical Roman would hear /ʃ/ as a strongly aspirated s, i.e. sh; likewise, zh for /ʒ/ makes some sense. But I can't imagine anabody hearing /t͡ʃ/ as a strongly aspirated /k/. Ch is correct for Greek χ and its cognates (such as Cyrillic х) in names like Pachmutova, Sacharov, Stachanov, psychologia and the like.

text: :::To sum it up: the most legal is Gorbacev; if you want to deviate from the norm, do it reasonably and choose one of Gorbacsev, Gorbaczev, Gorbatcev, Gorbatsev, Gorbatshev, Gorbatzev, Gorbaciov, Gorbacsiov, Gorbacziov, Gorbatciov, Gorbatsiov, Gorbatshiov, Gorbatziov, Gorbacov, Gorbacsov, Gorbaczov, Gorbatcov, Gorbatsov, Gorbatshov, Gorbatzov. --Gabriel Svoboda 06:02, 7 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::: Re "I can't imagine anabody hearing /t͡ʃ/ as a strongly aspirated /k/." --  yet this was a common solution among much of Western Europe, |ch| appearing for it in English, Spanish, Galician, older French and Portuguese before its shift in those languages to /ʃ/, and |c| appearing for it in Italian, Old English, Romanian, etc., not only because /tʃ/ sounds like /k/—it is not really a very big leap: the palatal stop /c/ can sound very like either of them to those unfamiliar with it; they sound different to our ears chiefly because in our languages we're trained to hear them as different phonemes—but because in many European languages where /tʃ/ is not original, it derives from /k/ (en.wiki suggests |k| → |č| alternation even happens occasionally in Czech, and |к| → |ч| is certainly known in Russian).  —Mucius Tever 15:49, 7 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::: I know /t͡ʃ/ evolved from /k/ or /t/ (preferably the former one in our case, as in Romance languages). But then let's just use plain c /k/ for it and don't confuse it with any additional h. The k→č (к→ч) change is called palatalisation rather then aspiration. The IPA sign indicating the former phonetic process is ʲ, the latter ʰ - why not taking these two just as i and h into Latin? Gorbac(i)ev or Gorbac(i)ov look much better than Gorbachev, mainly because ch is pronounced /x/ in traditional Latin pronunciations spreading from Russia to Germany; /t͡ʃ/ does come from /k/, but not from /x/. --Gabriel Svoboda 16:33, 7 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: De orthographia nominis

message: "... erat primus et ultimus praesidens ..." Cur primus? Nonne praesidentes erant ante Gorbachev? --Fabullus 12:17, 14 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nemo ducum Unionis Sovieticae ante Gorbachev titulum praesidentis (prezident) habuit. Lenin fuit praeses (predsedatel') Consilii Comissariorum Popularium, Stalin et dein alii ducum illorum fuere secretarii generales Factionis Communisticae Unionis Sovieticae, verbum prezident sicut nomen primiceriatus sui non utentes (ante virum cui haec articulum dedicatum est). -- Alexander Gerascenco 00:18, 15 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: primus praesidens