Disputatio:Socolata

message: We had a discussion on this somewhere, didn't we? I don't know of any Latin words that begin with Sch-, so I suspect we'll find a better spelling than this one.
Wormius, recommended to me by Iustinus, uses Cacao for the plant and its bean, Chocolate for the product, both probably indeclinable. See this page. Should we go with that? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:15, 8 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Disputatio:Pagina_prima#Chocolate_.3D_Tzocolate.3F is where the discussion was. I prefer something indeclinable than "schocolata" for sure.--Ioshus (disp) 13:27, 8 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Why not declination: socolata, socolatae, socolatae etc. vel Smith/Hall chocolatum, -i, -o, etc. PONS: chocolata, -ae, -ae, etc. --Alex1011 13:48, 8 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I could go with any of those. chocolata, -ae, -ae (as in PONS) is perhaps the closest to forms in several modern languages, so I'd perhaps choose it for preference. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:21, 8 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::This is fine for me. I just can't deal with that S.--Ioshus (disp) 14:23, 8 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of Latin words that start with sch-, it's just a silly way to represent [∫] (though from another point of view, it's no sillier than sh or ch). The word I usually use, and have used on wiki before, is the biological theobroma--apparently calqued off a native word. But asside from that there are plenty of Latinized spellings. Let's start listing attestations in an organized format. --Iustinus 16:53, 8 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, of course there are! I've been out of schola for too long. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:01, 8 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
It does seem that socolāta is by far the most widely attested spelling in out 20th century sources. Wish we could find some more stuff the 16th century and on though. --Iustinus 00:46, 9 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe that in all this time I've been away no one has managed to add anything! Surely we must have some more early attestations? --Iustinus 16:16, 14 Iulii 2010 (UTC)
===Attestations===
*1516: Petri Martyris Decades de Orbe Novo p. 348 (cacaum -i?)
*1605, Clusii Exoticorum Libri Decem, lib. II, cap. 28 "Cacao fructus" (Cacao; cacavate -is)

text: CELEBREM etiam per universam Americam, multique usus fructum Cacao appellatum, ... cujus fructus quum luculenta descriptio extet apud Benzonem, qui miles aliquot annis novi orbis provincias peragravit, ipsius verba, ut ab Urbano Calvetone Latina facta sunt, hîc subiicere libuit....

text: ...Duo inter cetera fert hæc tellus .... Unum, pavonum quoddam genus est, qui in Europam translati, vulgò Gallinæ Indicæ vocantur. Alterum, id quod Cacavate appellant, quod monetæ usum illis præbet.

text: ID fert arbor modicæ magnitudinis, quæ nisi calido loco, sed obaco vivit: nam simul ac sole tacta est, contabescit Itaque fere in silvis umbroso & humido loco seritur: neque id satis, sed juxta ejus generis arborem, aliam editiorem plantant: quæ simul ac adolescere cæpit, ejus cacumen ita concinnant, aptantque, ut dulta ea arbor Cacavatem inumbret, defendatque ab æstu, ut solis radiis lædi non possit....

text: Potum ex eo confecturi, in testa fictili ad focum exsiccant, mox lapidibus quibus pinsitur panis, contusum & commolitum, fusumque in pateras (quæ cucurbitæ specie è certis arboribus per omnem Indiam nascuntur) paulatin aquâ temperant, atque interdum paululo piper quali vulgò utuntur [Axi intelligit, quod vulgò Piper Brasilianum appellant,] condiunt, eoque in potu utuntur. Porcorum ea veriùs colluvies, quàm hominum potio. Quum eam provinciam peragrarem, plus quàm integrum annum, ab tali lora abhorrui: sed quum vini copia mihi non esset, ne semper aquam bibere cogerer, alios imitari didici. Ea cœlia sapore aliquantum amaro, satiat & refrigerat corpus, minimè tamen inebriat. Hæc præcipua & carissima merx earum regionum est: neque quidquam aliud Indi majori in pretio habent, ubi quidem in usu est. Hactenus Benzo.
* 1644, Colmenri Chocolata Inda: Opusculum De qualitate & natura Chocolatae 
*1655, Wormii Museum Wormianum, cap. 24, p. 191 (Chocolate)

text: "sed usum potissimum in potu habet, quem ex illo conficiunt Chocolate dicto..."
*1664?, Cardinalis Brancatii De Chocolatis Potu Diatribe (vide etiam duo poemata in fine libri, ubi etiam invenitur e.g. IN LAVDEM POTIONIS Chocolaticæ.)
*1689, Strozae carmen "De mentis potu, sive De cocolatis opificio" in libro Poemata varia (Cŏcŏlātes -is m., cacaum -i n.)
*1704, Mangeti Bibliotheca Parmaceutico-Medica (Chocolata)

text: Allata ex America in Europam Chocolata, usus illius in Hispania ita invaluit, ut carere extrema putetur miseria.
*1722, Ulpii "De Chocolata":

text: Haec ad delicias nostrisque ad gaudia gustus
replies: text: :Venit ab occiduis usque petita plagis.

text: Ut patuit primum coepit Chocolata vocari,
replies: text: :Et simili semper nomine gaudet adhuc
*Saec. 18, Rotii carmen (chocŏlas, -ātis)
*1870 Smith's English-Latin Dictionary (chocolatum)
*1936 Cognasso Il Latino Per Luso Moderno: Voci e Locuzioni s.v. cioccolata (chocolatum)
*1952 Guercio Feriae Anticolenses: Certamen Capitolinum III, p. 26 (chocolata)
*1962 P. N. Mangeot in Vita Latina, semptembris 1962, p. 43 (chocolata)
*1969 Mir Nova Verba Latina 8.4.48, pp. 93—4: (chocolata etc.)

text: 48. CHOCOLATAM [chocolatte - chocolat - cioccolata]: de voce chocolata haud pauca scripta sunt; ac licet praestantissimis viris, qui latine scripserunt e normas vocesque novae latinitatis tradiderunt (ut Vallauri, Morcelli, Card. Bacci aliique), maximam debeamus et —ut par est— exhibeamus reverentiam, ab his tamen in hoc cibo potuve latine reddendo recedendum putamus. Quis enim nos latine loquentes nostra aetate intelleget cum dicamus “modo sumpsi concretionem - coagulum - quadram - crustum - crustulum - pultem - cuppediam - bellaria ex faba mexicana, aut theobromatis concretionem - coagulum - quadram” cet.? Neque probanda sunt “cacaotica” (BIONE) nec “quadrae cacaoticae” (MARIANO), similia. —Sed cibum illud potumve chocolatam latine nominemus, ut superiorum aetatum scriptores prudenter fecerunt...
*1991 Lexicon Auxiliare (socolata, choccolata, cacaotica)
*1992, Lexicon Recentis Latinitatis, Vol. I, p. 170 (socolata)

text: cioccolatino     1 socolatae quadrŭla, f; ~ pastillŭlus.   2 pilŭla dulcorata, f. Syn: globulus saccharo conditus.

text: cioccolato     1 socolata, ae, f; cfr Lat, 31, 1983, 190     2 socolatae potio, f; ~ sorbitio.
*1995 Iohannis Traupman New College Latin & English Dictionary ed. 2 (chocolatum)

text: chococlate [sic] s chocolat·um, -ī n
*1998, PONS, p. 331 (socolata)

text: Schokolade, f     1 socolata, ae, f; vgl. Lat, 31, 1983, 190     2 socolatae potio, f; ~ sorbitio.
*2002, Calepinus Novus, "Français – Latin", p. 32 (socolata)

text: chocolat ¶ socolā́ta, ae f. [N. Gross, « Esculenta et potulenta », in : Vox Latina, 56, p. 170]

text: chocolat (au -) ¶ socolā́teus, a, um [[N. Gross, « Esculenta et potulenta », in : Vox Latina, 52, p. 160 et Vox Latina, 56, p. 170]
*2002, Thesaurus germanicus latinus "Menge-Güthling"  (Schocolata)
*2003 Traupman, Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency, ed. 3 (socolata)

text: chocolate socolā́t·a, -ae f
*2006 Morgan Adumbratio:

text: 347 chocolate  socolâta, ae* f. (Mod. Gr. σοκολάτα)

text: 347 chocolate bar  lamella socolâtina* (v. e socolâta)

text: 347 chocolate: cacao  < EL: κακάο

text: 347 ice cream  glacies (dulcis v. mulsa v. edûlis v. esculenta), nix (dulcis v. mulsa v. edûlis v. esculenta);  chocolate (or vanilla or strawberry) ice cream  glacies e socolâta (v. vanilla v. fragis)
*2006 Menge, Langenscheidt Taschenwörterbuch Latein (Lateinisch–Deutsch; Deutsch–Lateinisch) (chocolata)

text: NB Fontes supra recitatos 1516-1605 in paginam Theobroma cacao, 1655-1722 in paginam Socolata inserui. Gratias tibi ago, Iustine! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:50, 22 Februarii 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: :Modo Colmenri opusculum addidi, sed video te iam inter fontes ipsa in pagina addidisse. --Iustinus (disputatio) 04:07, 11 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: ::My focus in pagina ipsa is reports and descriptions of the thing rather than attestations of the word. But of course the one feeds into the other, and both are needed for a perfect article: a well-documented history of the terminology of chocolate and a well-documented history of the uses and pleasures of chocolate. Could a Latin reader ask for more?

text: ::So then we just go on and do it for everything else in the universe. Then we've finished. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:47, 11 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling

message: *1516: Petri Martyris Decades de Orbe Novo p. 348 (cacaum -i?)
*1605, Clusii Exoticorum Libri Decem, lib. II, cap. 28 "Cacao fructus" (Cacao; cacavate -is)
replies: text: CELEBREM etiam per universam Americam, multique usus fructum Cacao appellatum, ... cujus fructus quum luculenta descriptio extet apud Benzonem, qui miles aliquot annis novi orbis provincias peragravit, ipsius verba, ut ab Urbano Calvetone Latina facta sunt, hîc subiicere libuit....

text: ...Duo inter cetera fert hæc tellus .... Unum, pavonum quoddam genus est, qui in Europam translati, vulgò Gallinæ Indicæ vocantur. Alterum, id quod Cacavate appellant, quod monetæ usum illis præbet.

text: ID fert arbor modicæ magnitudinis, quæ nisi calido loco, sed obaco vivit: nam simul ac sole tacta est, contabescit Itaque fere in silvis umbroso & humido loco seritur: neque id satis, sed juxta ejus generis arborem, aliam editiorem plantant: quæ simul ac adolescere cæpit, ejus cacumen ita concinnant, aptantque, ut dulta ea arbor Cacavatem inumbret, defendatque ab æstu, ut solis radiis lædi non possit....

text: Potum ex eo confecturi, in testa fictili ad focum exsiccant, mox lapidibus quibus pinsitur panis, contusum & commolitum, fusumque in pateras (quæ cucurbitæ specie è certis arboribus per omnem Indiam nascuntur) paulatin aquâ temperant, atque interdum paululo piper quali vulgò utuntur [Axi intelligit, quod vulgò Piper Brasilianum appellant,] condiunt, eoque in potu utuntur. Porcorum ea veriùs colluvies, quàm hominum potio. Quum eam provinciam peragrarem, plus quàm integrum annum, ab tali lora abhorrui: sed quum vini copia mihi non esset, ne semper aquam bibere cogerer, alios imitari didici. Ea cœlia sapore aliquantum amaro, satiat & refrigerat corpus, minimè tamen inebriat. Hæc præcipua & carissima merx earum regionum est: neque quidquam aliud Indi majori in pretio habent, ubi quidem in usu est. Hactenus Benzo.
* 1644, Colmenri Chocolata Inda: Opusculum De qualitate & natura Chocolatae 
*1655, Wormii Museum Wormianum, cap. 24, p. 191 (Chocolate)

text: "sed usum potissimum in potu habet, quem ex illo conficiunt Chocolate dicto..."
*1664?, Cardinalis Brancatii De Chocolatis Potu Diatribe (vide etiam duo poemata in fine libri, ubi etiam invenitur e.g. IN LAVDEM POTIONIS Chocolaticæ.)
*1689, Strozae carmen "De mentis potu, sive De cocolatis opificio" in libro Poemata varia (Cŏcŏlātes -is m., cacaum -i n.)
*1704, Mangeti Bibliotheca Parmaceutico-Medica (Chocolata)

text: Allata ex America in Europam Chocolata, usus illius in Hispania ita invaluit, ut carere extrema putetur miseria.
*1722, Ulpii "De Chocolata":

text: Haec ad delicias nostrisque ad gaudia gustus
replies: text: :Venit ab occiduis usque petita plagis.

text: Ut patuit primum coepit Chocolata vocari,
replies: text: :Et simili semper nomine gaudet adhuc
*Saec. 18, Rotii carmen (chocŏlas, -ātis)
*1870 Smith's English-Latin Dictionary (chocolatum)
*1936 Cognasso Il Latino Per Luso Moderno: Voci e Locuzioni s.v. cioccolata (chocolatum)
*1952 Guercio Feriae Anticolenses: Certamen Capitolinum III, p. 26 (chocolata)
*1962 P. N. Mangeot in Vita Latina, semptembris 1962, p. 43 (chocolata)
*1969 Mir Nova Verba Latina 8.4.48, pp. 93—4: (chocolata etc.)

text: 48. CHOCOLATAM [chocolatte - chocolat - cioccolata]: de voce chocolata haud pauca scripta sunt; ac licet praestantissimis viris, qui latine scripserunt e normas vocesque novae latinitatis tradiderunt (ut Vallauri, Morcelli, Card. Bacci aliique), maximam debeamus et —ut par est— exhibeamus reverentiam, ab his tamen in hoc cibo potuve latine reddendo recedendum putamus. Quis enim nos latine loquentes nostra aetate intelleget cum dicamus “modo sumpsi concretionem - coagulum - quadram - crustum - crustulum - pultem - cuppediam - bellaria ex faba mexicana, aut theobromatis concretionem - coagulum - quadram” cet.? Neque probanda sunt “cacaotica” (BIONE) nec “quadrae cacaoticae” (MARIANO), similia. —Sed cibum illud potumve chocolatam latine nominemus, ut superiorum aetatum scriptores prudenter fecerunt...
*1991 Lexicon Auxiliare (socolata, choccolata, cacaotica)
*1992, Lexicon Recentis Latinitatis, Vol. I, p. 170 (socolata)

text: cioccolatino     1 socolatae quadrŭla, f; ~ pastillŭlus.   2 pilŭla dulcorata, f. Syn: globulus saccharo conditus.

text: cioccolato     1 socolata, ae, f; cfr Lat, 31, 1983, 190     2 socolatae potio, f; ~ sorbitio.
*1995 Iohannis Traupman New College Latin & English Dictionary ed. 2 (chocolatum)

text: chococlate [sic] s chocolat·um, -ī n
*1998, PONS, p. 331 (socolata)

text: Schokolade, f     1 socolata, ae, f; vgl. Lat, 31, 1983, 190     2 socolatae potio, f; ~ sorbitio.
*2002, Calepinus Novus, "Français – Latin", p. 32 (socolata)

text: chocolat ¶ socolā́ta, ae f. [N. Gross, « Esculenta et potulenta », in : Vox Latina, 56, p. 170]

text: chocolat (au -) ¶ socolā́teus, a, um [[N. Gross, « Esculenta et potulenta », in : Vox Latina, 52, p. 160 et Vox Latina, 56, p. 170]
*2002, Thesaurus germanicus latinus "Menge-Güthling"  (Schocolata)
*2003 Traupman, Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency, ed. 3 (socolata)

text: chocolate socolā́t·a, -ae f
*2006 Morgan Adumbratio:

text: 347 chocolate  socolâta, ae* f. (Mod. Gr. σοκολάτα)

text: 347 chocolate bar  lamella socolâtina* (v. e socolâta)

text: 347 chocolate: cacao  < EL: κακάο

text: 347 ice cream  glacies (dulcis v. mulsa v. edûlis v. esculenta), nix (dulcis v. mulsa v. edûlis v. esculenta);  chocolate (or vanilla or strawberry) ice cream  glacies e socolâta (v. vanilla v. fragis)
*2006 Menge, Langenscheidt Taschenwörterbuch Latein (Lateinisch–Deutsch; Deutsch–Lateinisch) (chocolata)

text: NB Fontes supra recitatos 1516-1605 in paginam Theobroma cacao, 1655-1722 in paginam Socolata inserui. Gratias tibi ago, Iustine! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:50, 22 Februarii 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: :Modo Colmenri opusculum addidi, sed video te iam inter fontes ipsa in pagina addidisse. --Iustinus (disputatio) 04:07, 11 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: ::My focus in pagina ipsa is reports and descriptions of the thing rather than attestations of the word. But of course the one feeds into the other, and both are needed for a perfect article: a well-documented history of the terminology of chocolate and a well-documented history of the uses and pleasures of chocolate. Could a Latin reader ask for more?

text: ::So then we just go on and do it for everything else in the universe. Then we've finished. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:47, 11 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Attestations

message: It certainly doesn't appear that schocolata has many votes; that really looks to me like an insistently Germanic spelling. But what to move to? There may be a majority for socolata, but plenty of takers for chocolata and chocolatum. Any views? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:37, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In view of the Greek spelling, why would anybody prefer the German? If it matters, I vote for the (authoritatively attested) nomen substantivum socolata, -ae, f., et nomen adiectivum socolateus, -a, -um, but I wouldn't cringe at siocolata and siocolatum. The spellings chocolata and chocolatum look less Latinlike. IacobusAmor 20:55, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :I guess that the first mention to chocolate must be a the chronicle writers of Indies, that would write if not in Latin, they would have written in rather archaic Spanish. It may be a good way to look for the oldest attestation... maybe...--Xaverius 21:50, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::And :es:Chocolate gives the etymology coming from nahuatl xocolatl, that the first Spaniards called chocahuatl - could it be turned into chocahautle, -is?--Xaverius 21:56, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::This "cho" = [tʃo], and the best approximation of that in the Classical Latin alphabet, pronounced according to what we know of Classical Latin pronunciation, could be sio, or even tsio. + Question: "chocahuatl - could it be turned into chocahautle, -is?" No, because Nahua -ahuatl = Classical Latin -avatl(i)(a/um): and siocoavatlium (and even siocoavata) has too many syllables for comfort. The old Romans might have shortened it, much as we apparently do. IacobusAmor 00:18, 16 Maii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::See now the Clusius quote above where cacahuatl is represented as cacavate. --Iustinus 19:48, 16 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

text: Socolata indeed seems to be the most logical choice from the point of view of latin pronunciation and history of atttestations. But perhaps it would also be wise to mention schocolata, chocolata and chocolatum as possible alternatives.Rafaelgarcia 00:29, 16 Maii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :I agree with that. We don't want to invent a form when there are lots of acceptable attested forms in modern Latin already. Moreover, socolata, while quite distinct from the spellings in the commonest modern languages, is still easy for the average reader to recognize. A good neutral choice. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:47, 16 Maii 2007 (UTC)

text: Paginam movi. Spem teneo ut motus vobis placeat.--Ioshus (disp) 14:58, 17 Maii 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Decision time?

message: I see pasta theobromae has been added as a possible name. Honestly, i like the idea, but I have two problems with it:
#It cites :de:Schokolade as its authority, and I can't find it on that page.
#Theobroma is actually third declension (theobroma, -tis, n.), scientific coinings like "theobromin" notwithstanding.
--Iustinus 17:11, 12 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Rolandus added it (on 12 March). Whoever it was had a good reason. It was on the German page at that time: see the first sentence of ! However, since it isn't there any more (it was deleted 7 days later) that's not much of a source, is it? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:33, 12 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pasta Theobromae 

message: The present illustration might be apter for an article on chocolates (usually chocolate-covered confections featuring a fondant center) than it is for an article on chocolate: it illustrates countable objects (chocolates), not an uncountable mass (chocolate). IacobusAmor 02:08, 3 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Not quite apt illustration?

message: I can't imagine that chocolate was found in America...Cocoa came from Asia, didn't it?
--Levita 15:46, 11 Maii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: According to en: "Native to lowland, tropical South America, cacao has been cultivated for at least three millennia in Central America and Mexico, with its earliest documented use around 1100 BC. " Apparently this is where the statement came from. See sources there.--Rafaelgarcia 15:52, 11 Maii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :There's no doubt about it, Levita. It was a prized food (or rather drink) among the Aztecs. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:36, 11 Maii 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patria America est?