lflage/wiki-talks huggingface dataset:
Disputatio Categoriae:Conscripti

message: bad name:
* why "Legatum"?
* if this category is confined to the United States of America, its title should reflect that (there are other countries in the world as well that have a representative democracy). If this category is not confined to the U. S., its description is too narrow.
--UV 10:28, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :I know the name is bad. Representativus would seem better; however, in standard latin, it is an adjective. Also, I don't know why it is listed as Legatum Populi. It should be listed as Legatum Populi Civitatum Foederatarum Americae. I look into it. Andy85719 20:45, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :: You mean legatus, -i m., not legatum, -i n. The two words have different meanings. --UV 21:26, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Crap. That's right. Legatum is legacy. More work for me. Andy85719 21:49, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

text: :: Thanks for correcting the legatum/legatus thing. Still, does this category cover

text: ::* representatives from all the world's countries? Then the description needs to be modified (it refers to the United States exclusively). Or does it cover

text: ::* representatives from the U. S. only? Then this should be reflected in the category title as well. --UV 00:01, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

message: Quae sunt haec comitia? Sunt ea totus Congressus, qui Washingtoniae convocatus est? IacobusAmor 02:30, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comitia=?

message: I suggest moving this general category (which includes members of senates, parliaments, chambers of representatives, etc., world wide) to :Categoria:Conscripti. This is the one classical term I can think of that potentially has the required meaning, and doesn't really have any other meaning. "Legati" is less suitable (a) because in classical Latin it means those who are sent out by a government, e.g. ambassadors, not those who are sent in by a people (b) because, in accordance with that classical sense, we already use :Categoria:Legati for the general category of ambassadors. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:06, 2 Iulii 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Another problem with legatus is that, in the B.G., Caesar calls certain of his military subordinates legati, and the Loeb edition consistently translates that word 'lieutenant-general'—not anything remotely like 'a civilian voted into office to represent the people', which seems to be what "Legati Populi" is trying to say. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:50, 2 Iulii 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: :You're right.

text: :As regards the terms used in single countries, we probably can't standardize, because there will be Latin sources on many of these countries, and they may often use terms with a local resonance. Whenever "senatores" happens to work, there's no problem, but commonly that's applied to members of an upper house. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:16, 3 Iulii 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: :: Categoriam movi. --UV (disputatio) 23:33, 13 Ianuarii 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movenda?
Disputatio:Timora Orientalis

message: by--Jondel 15:20, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
*Notorientalis (Southeast?)
*colonizata
*periodon
Superos mutaturus sum.--Jondel 03:38, 17 Octobris 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Not in Whitakers/NotreDame Dictionary

message: Vide autem "Timoriam Orientalem" (nomen fortasse recentius) apud Vaticanum. Lesgles (disputatio) 09:31, 24 Martii 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, too late now. We had been looking for a source for this name for many years. There are a couple of other maps and texts confirming "Timora": I cited the one that was easiest to link to. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:34, 24 Martii 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: :Yes, I think that's the right solution. Timora is more common on Google Books as well: 9 results for "insula Timora" or "Timora insula", none for "insula Timoria" or "Timoria insula". Lesgles (disputatio) 17:33, 24 Martii 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I'm easy ... I just didn't feel like moving all those categories again! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:45, 25 Martii 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timoria Orientalis
Disputatio:Nancy Pelosi

message: According to Ainsworth (18th century), a speaker of Parliament is a rogator comitiorum or a senatus praeses or a senatus princeps. In a bicameral legislature like that of the United States, which has a senate whose presiding officer is quite literally the "president of the Senate," the Latin usage is obvious, and that leaves rogator for the Speaker, but I wonder about comitiorum for "House of Representatives." Maybe Glass's Vita Georgii Washingtonii has an appropriate term, but Perseus is being slow tonight, and nothing from it turns up on my screen, so I can't check. ¶ Your comitia is neuter plural, so the form comitiae is a surprise. IacobusAmor 02:54, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Orator Comitiae=?
Disputatio:Thomas Jeffersonius

message: Nomen Jeffersonius, -i videtur in libro Washingtonii Vita a Francisco Glass scripto (1822, 1835, 1842), pagina 146: "Ante Kentuckiensium petitionem præsidi Congressuique oblatam, Washingtonius, (quippè qui incolarum occidentalium ægrimoniam solicitudinemque probè cognoverat,) virum inclytum Thomam Jeffersonium jussit, ut Reipublicæ Kentuckiensis gubernatorem certorem faceret, sese omni ratione laborare et niti, ut, Kentuckienses, sine molestiâ aut impedimento ullo, eo flumine uterentur." Similiter pagina 139: "Rerum exteris cum nationibus gerendarum curam Thomæ Jeffersonio tradidit." IacobusAmor 03:25, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nomen attestatum = ''Jeffersonius, -i''

message: Eadem operis citati pagina: "Washingtonius, interim, Thomam Pinckneyum ad Hispaniarum regem legavit." IacobusAmor 03:25, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Similiter ''Pinckneyus, -i''

message: Meyers Großes Konversations-Lexikon, tomus 10. Lipsiae 1907, p. 217 (hic in interreti)
thread_title: Fons recensionis mense Iulio 2020
Disputatio:Aloisia Capps

message: I understand that it is odd to call woman vir, but I think we run into the problem that was had with congressman and I don't see any word in my dictionary that doesn't use vir. Latin wasn't to gender neutral.Andy85719 04:51, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A vir is 'a male person', as contrasted with mulier 'a female person' (not to mention femina) and puer 'a boy'. The sex-neutral term is homo 'a human being (man or woman)'. In the context, civis 'citizen' might work, especially if you made a clause depend on it, a clause whose relative pronoun specifies the person's sex: civis qui, civis quae. Other solutions might be available too. IacobusAmor 12:25, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vir
Disputatio:Alphabetum

message: Duo verba habet lingua Latina quibus appellet seriem litterarum, alterum alphabetum alterum abecedarium. Potius quam aliud verbum indistincté semper adhibendum aliud vero a linguá Latiná aberruncandum, videntur ambo utilia quibus distinguantur, sicut in omnibus aliis fit præterea linguis, sensus abstractus atque linguisticus a sensu concreto. Hac de causá modo quæ ad alphabetum pertinebant in hance paginam alphabeti transtuli, hactenus innecessario inanem, quæque pertinent ad abecedaria suo loco relíqui. In hanc paginam augendam atque illustrandam nunc impendam. Avitus 13:39, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Geezicum?!This has to be a joke...--Rafaelgarcia 00:30, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :I guess not apparently its to do with Ethiopian language.--Rafaelgarcia 00:33, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  De alphabetis abecedariisque
Disputatio:V

message: Ignosce, Avite, sed haec de origine litterae V mihi merae ineptiae esse videntur, quas potius delendas esse censeo. --Fabullus 15:15, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rectissimé dicis, stupiditates sunt supinæ, at non ego scripsi! Tantum transtuli ab aliá paginá quæ appellabatur "V (littera)" a nescioquo scriptá quæque fluctuabat in spatio virtuali. Nunc rem paulatim emendabimus. Patientiam exerceas precor. Avitus 15:42, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Da veniam. Properantius perrexi. Expecto emendationes tuas. Vale. --Fabullus 16:05, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

message: Originem pronuntiationum in pagina iam scriptarum nescio. Quis voluit pronuntiationem addere -- reverti  -- da veniam, sed sed re vera nobis oportet fontes pro pronuntiationibus omnibus citare ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:17, 11 Decembris 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: De prima pronuntiatione Allen citavi. "Vê" et "vau" (ut Francogallice et Theodisce) mihi pronuntiationes possibiles Novi Aevi videntur, sed fontem nondum inveni. "Vau" etiam pronuntiatio digammatis videtur. Res investiganda manet. Lesgles (disputatio) 23:49, 11 Decembris 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: : Constat ū [u:] inter Romanos fuisse appellationem < V > litterae, non aliter quam [ef] appellatio < F > litterae, [pe:] appellatio < P > litterae, &c. Res ad pronuntiationem classicam pertinentes addidi. Equidem non puto nostrum esse praescriptiones normativas lectoribus nostris dare. Neander (disputatio) 11:24, 12 Decembris 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  de pronuntiatione 

message: Vide: u consonans [{{IPA|'uː 'kɔ̃sɔnɑ̃s}}]<ref>Allen 1978: 114.</ref>: nec locutio "u consonans" nec pronuntiatio IPA in pagina 114 huius libri Alleniani legitur! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 22:48, 13 Novembris 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Plus de proununtiatione
Disputatio:Iosephus Barton

message: Andy, your disputatio page is blank, so I'll temporarily put this here:
thread_title: Andy, your disputatio page

message: Does legatus, here & in your other congressional pages, stand for 'representative [to the U.S. House of Representatives]'? It usually means 'ambassador', as we see in chapter 19 of Glass's Vita Washingtonii (1822, 1842):
Morrisio, itaque, legato Americano, Lutetiæ Parisiorum, tune [sic] temporis, degenti, negotium datum, ut Genetius à civibus Gallicis revocetur: quod à Gallis, tandem impetratum. Eaque, quæ legatus iste Gallicus apud Americanos fecerit, à Gallicæ reipublicæ moderatoribus improbata sunt.
"It was, therefore, given in charge to Morris, the American ambassador, then residing at Paris, that Genet should be recalled by the French citizens: which was, at length, obtained from the French. And those things which that French ambassador had done in America were disproved of by the directors of the French republic."
Before you go on to create pages for all 535-plus members of Congress, it might be best to get others to agree on the aptest Latin for this kind of 'representative'. Legatus might be OK, but it immediately sets up such an ambiguity with 'ambassador' (which is doubtless legatus) that one worries that a better term could be available, out there somewhere. IacobusAmor 19:35, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Legatus = 'ambassador'
Disputatio:Organista

message: Organista quoque est musicus qui composuit organum. Vide Organum (genus musicae). IacobusAmor 13:15, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A disambiguation page to distinguish between organista (who plays the organ) and organista (who composes organum) is still needed. IacobusAmor 22:55, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: : Er...I don't think you compose organum. You just do it. I can't think of any organistae in this sense by name. Tergum violinae 23:05, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::The most famous are probably Leoninus, "the first known significant composer of polyphonic organum" (:en:Léonin)‡ and Perotinus, who "composed organum" (:en:Pérotin). More problematic in this regard is a composer who played the organ: Francesco Landini, the blind organist of Florence, or, as he's called in the Codex Squarcialupi (Florence, Bibl. Medicea-Laurenziana Pal. 87, p. 170), giving us a nice attestation: MAGISTERFRANCISCUSCECVS HORGHANISTADEFLORENTIA, Magister Franciscus Cecus Horghanista de Florentia. IacobusAmor 01:32, 5 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::‡Or, in the original (saec. XIII): fuit optimus organista, qui fecit magnum librum organi (http://books.google.com/books?id=Yhehs16OGeQC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=anonymus+IV+organista&source=web&ots=cRQLoBftwP&sig=haFUaEmwF1pFXQXanbsQ5NhvEE0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result). IacobusAmor 04:33, 5 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
A German-Latin dictionary from 1712 says: Organist, orgelspieler (player) = Organicus, fistularius. Orgelmacher (maker) = Organarius. --Packare (disputatio) 20:17, 8 Martii 2015 (UTC)

text: Good find! Those are also in Lewis and Short, although the ancient organum was broader in meaning. There's also some good information about ancient and medieval meanings of organum in du Cange (who has organarius and organista), but I don't have the energy to read through the whole thing right now. Lesgles (disputatio) 04:12, 9 Martii 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "Organista est musicus qui sonat organum."
Disputatio Formulae:Index synopticus categoriae

message: What's this formula do, Rolande? And when should I use it?--Ioscius (disp) 15:03, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For categories with many elements, see Disputatio_Usoris:IacobusAmor#Categories. --Rolandus 15:09, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ratio
Disputatio:Provincia Franconia Inferior

message: Nonne melius Franconia Inferior? Video alias Vicipaedias nomen brevius habere. Quid cogitas? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:06, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nomen breve exceptio hic mihi esse videtur. Normaliter omnes eius modi "provinciae" Germanice nomen Regierungsbezirk xyz habent quod Latine "provincia xyz" reddatur. Etiam formula quae hac in pagina in usu est, ad nomen hac ratione creandum facta est. --Alex1011 14:24, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Ah! Id non vidi. Sine dubio, forma qua uteris accuratior est. Bene! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:31, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Addatur aliis in terris foederalibus provincias nomen ab urbe capitali sumere ita ut distinguendum sit nomen urbis (Stuttgartum) a nomine provinciae (provincia Stuttgartum). In Bavaria autem provinciae revera nomina propria ut ita dicam habent ita ut vocabulum "provincia" nomini deesse ut possit, tamen si ratione inter terras unica utamur adiungatur. --Alex1011 18:32, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Gratias, Alex! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:11, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nomen
Disputatio:Regimen Viciacense

message: État français denominatio officialis erat. Rerum gestarum scriptores verbis Régime de Vichy aut France de Vichy utuntur. Vichy quoque dici potest (e.g. in Roberti Paxtonis librorum titulo).ThbdGrrd 19:24, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

message: Estne hoc nomen attestatum? Alioquin licetne me suggerere hanc paginam ad "Francia Vippiacensis" movendam. "Vippiacum" enim attestatum est et formam nominis recentiorem adhuc non inveni.Tergum violinae 17:51, 29 Maii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Recte mones. Verbum Vichiana exstat, sed in lingua Italica tantum? (vide Google). Fortasse movere oportet. Quid dicit ThbdGrrd? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:19, 29 Maii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :Si "Vippiacum" attestatum est, quod mea opinione veri simile est, non dubito quin haec pagina quam primum movenda sit. Quin etiam "Francia Vippiacensis" opportunior est quam "Res Publica Vichiana" quoniam Pétain tyrannice et omnium qui Reipublicae infensi fuerant auxilio rexit ThbdGrrd 21:12, 9 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Sicut in Andreae Dalby pagina scripsi, "regimen" magis decet quam "respublica". Itaque, amico Dalby silente et probabiliter consentiente, paginam movi. ThbdGrrd 14:53, 5 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vichiana?
Disputatio:Insula Sanctae Luciae

message: Sancta Lucia virgo sancta erat. Movere ad "Santa Lucia (civitas)"?/Petrus Kuiper 11:05, 8 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inscriptio paginae 

message: Fanum may be logical for cities, I guess, but it doesn't seem to me to make sense in the name of a country. A country isn't a shrine. The footnote reference doesn't support this name, unless I missed something. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:32, 28 Februarii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fanum est aedificium (parvum aedificium, secundum nonnulla glossaria...). Ergo hoc verbo tam civitates quam urbes ad designandas uti non decet, etiamsi de hoc dissentiunt qui Hofmannum pro Evangelio habent. ThbdGrrd 21:36, 12 Martii 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fanum
Disputatio:Inter Sollicitudines (1903)

message: I made a tiny correction to the spelling. I also added the date, because it turns out there are 3 other Papal documents with this title: 1349, 1524 and 1892! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:23, 8 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Andrew, Many thanks!  I'm wondering, then, how did "sollecitudines" find its way to Google (even if there are fewer of them than sollicitudines"?  Maybe because the former is closer to the Italian? GiovaneScuola2006 19:09, 8 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Title
Disputatio:Motu proprio

message: Io sono 66.31.139.250.  Allora, toglimi una curiosità: Motu Proprio ... Decreto ... Bolla ... Sono differenti, lo so.  Ma nella gerarchia delle lettere vaticane -- Constitutio Apostolico, Esortazione, ecc. ecc. -- dove vanno Motu Proprio, Decreto, ecc. ecc.?  O forse quelli sono altri parametri?  Forsi un Constitutio può essere motu proprio O decreto O bolla??? Ne sono confuso. GiovaneScuola2006 19:13, 8 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Grazie, Massimo.

message: non lo so dovrei guardare i miei vecchi libri di diritto canonico, se li trovo ancora  o cercare altrove adesso vedo. Ciao e grazie per le nuove voci--Massimo Macconi 19:25, 8 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  caro Giovane Scuola,
Disputatio:Factio republicana (Civitates Foederatae)

message: cur factio republicanAE et non Factio republicana, idem Factio democratica?--Massimo Macconi 05:17, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aut "partes republicanae" aut "factio republicana" dicendum est. --Alex1011 05:39, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

message: "Republican" as the name of the politcal party in the united states is different and means something different, I think, than the adjective and general "republican' as it is usually used. So I am not sure Cassell's suggested translation is appropriate for the name of the party. Can you provide any further information?--Rafaelgarcia 04:40, 31 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the Republican Party is not necessarily a republican party.  As a name it should be translated as if it were a name, not as if it were a description.  (All the more so as the politics of the party change over time.) —Mucius Tever 17:01, 2 Februarii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Why, then, is it being translated as if its name were republican Party ? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:17, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I feel fairly neutral on this question, and didn't in fact change the capitalization when I moved today.

text: ::The justification in my mind for our now-fairly-consistent practice of not regarding the names of political parties as proper names deserving capitalization is that although in their original languages they have proper names, the names we give them in Latin aren't proper names, we are merely offering the best Latin words we have to hand. I don't know if that works for anyone else.

text: ::The reason for my move was quite different: I always try to eliminate abbreviations of modern Latin from pagenames because very few readers who chance on them (in a search box, for example) will understand them. That too is a weak argument in this case, because chance readers may not understand "Civitates Foederatae" either ... but at least "Civitates Foederatae" has a meaning to any reader of Latin, whereas "CFA" does not. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:38, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: :::In addition to the fact that not many novice Latinists will recognize CFA, one of our programming specialists warned us maybe ten years ago that CFA could have multiple meanings (Canadian Football Act, Championnat de France Amateur, Chartered Financial Analyst, Compagnie Française d'Aviation, Consumer Federation of America) and should therefore be avoided. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:53, 9 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Republicanus aut Popularis
Disputatio:Capitolinus mons

message: Marce, cur delevisti hos nexus?
replies: text: - be-x-old:Капітолій

text: - br:Kapitol

text: - bg:Капитолий

text: - ca:Capitoli

text: - cs:Kapitol

text: - da:Kapitol

text: - de:Kapitol (Rom)

text: - es:Colina Capitolina

text: - eo:Kapitolo (Romo)

text: - it:Campidoglio (Roma)

text: - he:גבעת הקפיטולין

text: - nl:Capitolijn

text: - ja:カンピドリオ

text: - no:Kapitolhøyden

text: - pl:Kapitol

text: - pt:Capitólio

text: - ru:Капитолий (холм)

text: - sk:Campidoglio

text: - fi:Capitolium

text: - sv:Capitolium
Error meus fuit sed eos restitui. Volui videre quod mutatum erat ac deinde priorem versionem servavi. Usor novus sum...
thread_title: Nexus

message: This Website (which is a .edu site, meaning that it is permitted to tell the truth), says that Capitolium usually just refers to the part of the Hill around the Temple of Jupiter. Would Mons Capitolinus, which means the whole hill, not be a better name for the article? --Harrissimo 15:28, 13 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
Yes I agree with you that, as I say it in the first lines, stricto sensu the Capitolium is the temple. But the roman writers of classical age often use this name while they mean the hill and it's the best known name around the world. So for myself I prefer to keep this heading since I speak of both in my article.
I may be right or I may be wrong : perhaps it's the point of wiew of a Frenchman. In france we say "Capitole" and so is it written on every map of Rome. We may also say "la colline du Capitole" if we want to emphasize the fact that we are speaking of the hill but in so speaking we understand that "Capitole" is the name of the hill just as in "la ville de Rome (urbs Roma)" we understand that the name of the town is Rome. As usual we say "le Capitole" just as "le Palatin". 
replies: text: For reference: in the U.S. national capital (Washington, D.C.), the principal congressional building is the Capitol, and it sits on Capitol Hill. Ancient Rome was often in the minds of the founders of the country, and they deliberately borrowed these terms from Roman usage. IacobusAmor 16:28, 16 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :That's all fine, then. I don't really have much of an interest in ancient literature and people are obviously going to search for the name they know best. I'll make a link to this page as a source. --Harrissimo 10:01, 17 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: About the Name
Disputatio:Charta

message: I think the distinction between papyrus "papyrus" and charta "paper" is generally maintained in Latin, even of the modern variety. --Iustinus 17:08, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Charta can have different meanings, though, too. We'll need an disambiguation page there, too. You're right that I definitely hear people ask for folia chartarum, but I've heard papyrus for the actual substance, too. --Ioscius (disp) 18:51, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
===Moved to charta===
I think we're still going to need a separate page on papyrus the material. --Iustinus 19:32, 9 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Papyrus vs. Charta

message: I think we're still going to need a separate page on papyrus the material. --Iustinus 19:32, 9 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved to [[charta]]

message: The illustration was originally captioned "Lacertus papyri..."; I just changed it to "Papyri fragmentum." So far as I can tell, a piece of papyrus is not called lacertus, but if I'm wrong about this please do let me know. As for the word order, it's just a personal preference, but when I write captions for images, I prefer to put the lemma word (in whatever case) at the very beginning of the sentence. I mean, no reason we HAVE to do this, but given Latin's flexible word order, why not take the opportunity to do so? --Iustinus 18:12, 18 Martii 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lacertus

message: Charta (see also disputatio:papyrus) --Iustinus 07:05, 22 Martii 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Papyrus