Disputatio:Cithara

message: Page Instrumentum musicum uses cithara in the meaning of :de:Zither, not :de:Gitarre, I think. --Roland2 21:42, 8 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote that page, and intended Cithara to mean the ancient stringed instrument. But note that I also included cithara Hispanica "guitare" and cithara electrica "electric guitare": it has been the habit of Latinists at least since the Renaissance to use qualifying adjectives to indicate exactly what is meant by cithara. --Iustinus 04:40, 9 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: :Sorry, I missed the entry cithara Hispanica on page instrumentum musicum. My question is: What is the correct interwiki link for cithara and is it sufficient to write cithara on page heavy metal (because of the context) or is it necessary/better to have a page Cithara Hispanica and link cithara to :de:Zither? --Roland2 06:40, 9 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ::As Iustinus said, cithara has been used for what we today call "guitar" since the renaissance. I actually remember being in music history glass and having that epiphany, "OHHHH, of course, cithara=>gitarra." I think it's fine to leave it as it is on a page like Heavy metal, which were'nt we thinking of moving to Musica Metallica?--Ioshus Rocchio 14:06, 9 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Well, in the Renaissance, when there seems to have been a greater variety of instrument types than today, cithara was used for several instruments. I have in front of me a plate from Athanasius Kircher's Musurgia Instrumentalis showing several different types of stringed instruments, of which at least three he considers to be a type of cithara. The "Cithara Hispanica" is strikingly identical to the modern acoustic guitar, and this expression is definitely in use at the Conventicula I've been to. Now, the other instruments which Kircher lists by that name are not in common use anymore, so one would think it might be possible to use just cithara for guitar, and only add hispanica when absolutely necessary. The problem is that I think Roland2 is correct when he suggests that cithara is also used for "zither" (I can't remember what the usual distinguishing adjective is for that though), which while not that common an instrument is still definitely modern. Furthermore, many modern Latinists use this construction to name more recent instruments, e.g. cithara Americana = banjo, cithara Havaiiana = ukulele, cithara Russica = balalaika and so on.

text: :::As to how these articles should be arranged, I would suggest that guitar shoudl be under cithara Hispanica, and in a page on heavy metal cithara, or better yet cithara could be used. What should be under cithara? I'm unsure. In a way that's more of a wiki housekeeping question than a Latin question: one could have it be a redirect to cithara Hispanica with an "otheruses" header (the ancient cithara would then be under cithara veterum or cithara antiqua I suppose). On the other hand, on a Latin wikipedia, many readers are going to come with the expectation that if they look up a word for an ancient instrument they will find an article on an ancient instrument first, modern usages being dealt with elsewhere. This is not an entirely unjustified expectation. A third possibility is that cithara could be a summary of all instruments called by that name, the way hordeata covers horchata de chufas, horchata de riso, orgeat, orgeade and so on. --Iustinus 20:48, 10 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::I think Iustinus speaks well when he suggests that readers might be expecting a latin wikipedia to direct them to the discussion of the ancient instrument, as said, a not unreasonable assumption. Important to note is the way we use the term guitar in english. We say a band consists of 2 guitars a bass and drums, and only later specify that it was either an acoustic or electric. We also make no distinction between nylon (classical guitar) and steel string. A 12 string is still a guitar. Let us combine the two best points here, and follow Iustinus' suggestions with slight emend:

text: ::::*Guitar = Cithara Hispanica

text: ::::*Cithara = redirect to Cithara Antiqua (NOT to Cithara Hispanica) With disclaimer up at top for something like "Pro citharis recentioribus (vel quae adhibentur in musica moderna, yadda yadda), vide Cithara Hispanica"

text: ::::*in a page on heavy metal cithara, or better yet cithara

text: ::::Satisfies this the german, the american, the roman?--Ioshus Rocchio 21:20, 10 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::Three pages must be better than one page. ;-) In my opinion "cithara" should not be a "#REDIRECT" but a discretiva page. REDIRECTs have the disadvantage that the user has to guess the reason for the redirection: Synonyms, wrong terms, misspellings, ... --Roland2 21:49, 10 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

text: ::::Fine by me.--Ioshus Rocchio 22:04, 10 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

message: Here is the illustration I mentioned above.
The instruments are as follows (the English names are tentative, pending confirmation by a friend of mine who is an expert on Rensaissance music):
#—
#Testudo (lute)
#Tiorba, thiorba, theorba (theorbo)
#Cythara communis (Orpharion)
#Cythara germanica/Italica (chitarra Italiana?)
#Cythara Hispanica (guitar)
#Testudo compendiata seu Mandora (mandora)
#Trichord[is] Turcicus seu Colachon (colachon?)
--Iustinus 00:40, 11 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kircher