Disputatio:Alfus

message: Addidi formulas stipularum quia debemus scribere non solum de Elbibus Tolkieni, sed etiam de Elbibus mythologiae. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:12, 3 Martii 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stipula

message: * Est fons usus Latine nominis Germani Elb?  Alteras figuras habeo:
** Albus, -i (Ñgolendel, redditor partis Dominus Anulorum) .
** alfonis, -is (Earendilyon, redditor partis Dominus Anulorum) 
** elphiculus, -i in Harrius Potter et Camera Secretorum (forma deminutiva indicans radicem elphis, -is).  
** alfus, -i (Aiwendil II, redditor partis Silmarillion) ; Iacobus Grimm in suo libro de mythologia Teutonica agnomina âlfa lioði et vîsi âlfa reddit ut alforum socius et alforum princeps
* I also found some Latinate equivalents of the term in Bosworth & Toller: 
** ephialtes, -ae (Gr. Ἐφιάλτης, v. Aloadae; e.g. ælfadl elf-disease, "ephialtae morbus";  ælfcynn elf-kind, the elven race, "ephialtum genus") 
** genius et incubus tantum s.v. ælf dant.
** castalis, -idis 
** vel diabolus (ælfsiden the influence of elves or of evil spirits, the nightmare,  ‘impetus castalidum, diaboli incubus’)
** Grimm also has döckâlfar = ‘genii obscuri’, græti âlfa == ‘ploratus nanorum’ (svartalfar being identified with dwarves).
Ludovicus Ettmüllerus in his Lexicon Anglosaxonicum (1851) has most of those B&T have but uses 'alfus' as well.  —Mucius Tever 01:05, 4 Martii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I seem to have left out in aggressive pre-post editing nympha—which appears in a couple other B&T entries: ælfsciéne beautiful, like an elf or nymph, of elfin beauty; ‘formosus ut genius vel nympha’ and ælfscínu shining like an elf or fairy, elfin-bright, of elfin beauty; ‘splendidus ut genius vel nympha’.  —Mucius Tever 02:22, 4 Martii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :But, as we know, nymphs are really something else.

text: :From your extremely useful listing I draw the conclusion that one word alfus -i is used by Ettmüller and Grimm (speaking of medieval mythology) and also by one of the translators of Tolkien. That's the word to go for, I think. It seems likely that alfo -nis would turn up somewhere as a variant if we went on searching, and we should note it in the article. Other modern translators have perhaps just invented words without realising that a form was already available. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:37, 4 Martii 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I quite agree, and have hence moved the article to Alfus. That term by far seems to be the one that have the best precedence. Alatius 17:46, 12 Aprilis 2007 (UTC)
A certain mutual friend of Mucius' and mine, who has a certain investment in this subject, commended to me a pdf on Latin glosses for ælf in Anglo-Saxon Glossaries. He went on to say 'If I were to try to build something off PGmc *alBiz, I'd probably do "albs" or "albis", 3rd declension i-stem with g.pl. "albium", as if it had been borrowed very early from Germanic. Elb- seems just as silly and Teutocentric as, say, "Elfus" would be (only Anglocentric).  I would really *like* albs, but I'm not sure if it's phonetically acceptable in Latin.' Interesting though this is, I don't think we can use it without cites to back it up (besides, shouldn't *alβiz have given "albis"? Unless it was borrowed from a language like Gothic, that drops the i in the nominative). --Iustinus 18:11, 4 Martii 2007 (UTC)
I haven't gone through that pdf yet for more glosses, but one form that I can immediately add to Muke's list is: Elbus, -i (Sigridis Albert "De Iohanne Ronaldo Tolkien eiusque opere", Vocis Latinae Tom. 38 Fasc. 148, 2002, pp. 204-216.) --Iustinus 19:04, 4 Martii 2007 (UTC)

text: It's true that Old English ælfe typically glosses Latin (from Greek) nymphae, though I would agree that this term doesn't really capture the modern senses of "elf". Although some Germanic forms, like Old Norse alfr, suggest a Germanic a-stem (= PIE o-stem or Latin 2nd declension), most I think suggest a Germanic i-stem like *alβiz, as suggested, and had such a Proto-Germanic form been borrowed into Latin, surely it would have appeared as PIE i-stems typically appear in Latin, i.e. as "albis" ("-es"), also as suggested?  (Moreover, one suspects that Germanic a-stem forms like Old Norse alfr are late adaptations from an original i-stem form.)  Accordingly, I tend to think that "Albis" would be a better headform than "Alfus" -- but that may just be me! --Carlseni 20:54, 23 Ianuarii 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Nomen