Disputatio:Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Salomonici

message: @Petrus Tectander, gratus
and if: "In consideratione de illis factis, plures membra de illa exstincta ordinis fugit ad Portugallia, in illam Paeninsulam Hibericam. In Portugalliam, Rex D. Dinis I de Portugal renominavit Ordinem Militiae Iesu Christi (Portugallice Ordem da Milícia de Jesus Cristo), per illam bullam papalis "Ad ea ex quibus cultus augeatur", die 14 de Martis 1319. Actualiter, Ordo Millitaris de Christo est unum Ordinem Honorifica, cuius Grandis Magister est illum Praesidentem de Portugallia, hodie Marcellus Nuno Duarte Rebelo de Sousa." ? 2001:8A0:EC74:D000:B1CE:923E:6E71:4A04 00:37, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear 2001:8a0:ec74:d000:b1ce:923e:6e71:4a04,

text: if you want to prefer the version above, then so be it. I just wanted to be of help and improve the quality of the text.

text: However, I'll highlight for you all the issues this version has (grammar, expression, construction, word choice). The small question marks mostly refer to wrong case endings:

text: "In consideratione de illis factis(non Latine), plures membra(non Latine) de illa exstincta ordinis fugit ad Portugallia, in illam Paeninsulam Hibericam. In Portugalliam, Rex D. Dinis I de Portugal(non Latine) renominavit(non Latine) Ordinem Militiae Iesu Christi (Portugallice Ordem da Milícia de Jesus Cristo), per illam bullam papalis "Ad ea ex quibus cultus augeatur", die 14 de (non Latine) Martis 1319. Actualiter, Ordo Millitaris de Christo(non Latine) est unum Ordinem Honorifica, cuius Grandis Magister est illum Praesidentem de Portugallia(non Latine), hodie Marcellus Nuno Duarte Rebelo de Sousa."

text: * in consideratione de illis factis - sounds somehow like a direct translation from German; Latin loves to express such phrases by means of an ablative absolute, if possible: his factis consideratis
replies: text: ::It could well be trying to accommodate the English "in consideration of," but as has been pointed out, in consideratione de is not at all an idiomatic way to go about doing it. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:17, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)

text: * membra - Latin can't use this word for people that easily; if you want to say "many/most members", then write maxima pars eorum ("most of them") or just complures ("many, several")

text: * complures can be constructed with the genitive (e.g. complures illius exstincti ordinis), or with the preposition ex (e.g. complures ex illo exstincto ordine)

text: * if the subject is a plural word like [com]plures, the predicate has to be plural as well: fugerunt (3rd pl.), not fugit (3rd sg.)

text: * ad + accusative = direction, movement to a place ("whereto?"), but not necessarily "into ~ to a country"

text: * in + accusative = direction, movement to a place ("whereto?")

text: * in + ablative = location ("where?")

text: * "to rename something" in Latin is "to give something a new name", e.g. alicui rei novum nomen indere

text: * I'd suggest to use Lusitanice instead of Portugallice, like Gallice instead of Francogallice, Germanice instead of Theodisce, or Batavice instead of Nederlandice
replies: text: ::The mos vicipaedianus (from ancient internet times) has been to use Francogallice for French and Theodisce for modern German (as opposed to Germanice for proto-Germanic and the Germanic languages as a group). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:17, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Gratias tibi, Iacobe ;)) Sed quid de lingua Lusitanica? Et obiter: aliquot abhinc septimanis tibi scripseram in pagina tua disputationis. Legistin'? Petrus Tectander (disputatio) 11:34, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Ahhhh. Yes, I see it now (with a comment on a biological topic by someone else). Later! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:25, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)

text: * per illam bullam papalem - adjectives have to have the same case endings as their corresponding nouns

text: * statements like "something is something" require a double nominative in the appropriate gender and number, not the accusative

text: * "president" in Latin is praeses (with the country in the genitive case)

text: Now compare the above version again with the following one (which by no means claims to be perfect):

text: His factis consideratis complures ex illo exstincto ordine se in Portugalliam, in illam paeninsulam Hibericam contulerunt. D. Dinis I, rex Portugalliae, Ordini novum nomen indidit, nempe: Ordo Militiae Iesu Christi (Lusitanice Ordem da Milícia de Jesus Cristo), idque per illam bullam papalem, quae inscribitur "Ad ea, ex quibus cultus augeatur", die 14 Martis 1319. Hodiernus Ordo Militiae Iesu Christi est unus Ordo Honorificus, cuius Grandis Magister est ille Praeses Portugalliae, hodie Marcellus Nuno Duarte Rebelo de Sousa.
replies: text: ::Ordo honorificus and grandis magister, being generic, needn't be capitalized. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:17, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Wasn't my choice, so I left it untouched ;) Petrus Tectander (disputatio) 11:35, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)

text: Petrus Tectander (disputatio) 10:48, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: :and if:

text: :His factis consideratis complures de illo exstincto ordine fugerunt ad Portugalliam, in illam Paeninsulam Hibericam. D. Dinis I, rex Portugalliae, Ordini novum nomen indidit, nempe: Ordo Militiae Iesu Christi (Lusitanice Ordem da Milícia de Jesus Cristo), idque per illam bullam papalem, quae inscribitur "Ad ea, ex quibus cultus augeatur", die 14 Martis 1319. Hodiernus Ordo Militiae Iesu Christi est unus Ordo Honorificus, cuius Grandis Magister est ille Praesidens Portugalliae, hodie Marcellus Nuno Duarte Rebelo de Sousa. 2001:8A0:EC74:D000:44D:32DA:E0BB:92CB 23:05, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I think that "Praesidens" and "Praeses" exist, so i opt to the most recognisable.
replies: text: :::Praeses is the standard classical term. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:47, 28 Iunii 2022 (UTC)

text: :: About Lusitanice and Portugallice, i think we must use the most modern words and grammer. For example, for any person who speaks a romantic language or English, will understand what means "in consideratione", but will not understand "His factis consideratis",
replies: text: :::As Petrus pointed out, the syntax of His factis consideratis / compertis / notis &c is the usual idiom. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:47, 28 Iunii 2022 (UTC)

text: :: but the first one are alse latine, but not the classical option. I think also, that "de Christo" means the samo of "Christi", it is a grammer option that it is more similer with moderns languages. 2001:8A0:EC74:D000:44D:32DA:E0BB:92CB 23:16, 27 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: :::The problem is that modern Romance languages ​​work completely differently from their Latin mother: they have no case endings (except plural markers), no ablative absolute, no accusative with infinitive, no nominative with infinitive, no possessive dative, no subjunctive in main clauses, no subjunctive in subordinate if-clauses, no future participle and no periphrastic conjugation, instead they have articles, they use prepositions differently in order to compensate the loss of so many case endings, Portuguese has got a personal infinitive which can be inflected, the Italian way of counting ordinal numbers is different, and the meaning of words developped in later periods has obscured its classical meaning... I could go on and on.

text: :::That's why Romance languages can trick you very easily. So we can't simply write Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese etc. and then replace the modern word forms with its ancient cognates. For example, in consideratione de illis factis: although these words work "correctly" and we get their meaning, the phrase itself isn't a genuine Latin idiom at all. Have a look for yourself at https://latin.packhum.org/concordance?q=That's one of the biggest data bases containing the works of almost all classical authors, and you'll find neither in consideratione nor de illis factis there...

text: :::I tend to disagree: de Christo doesn't necessarily mean the same as Christi - de Christo generally means "about Christ", "concerning Christ", then "(away) from Christ", even "(down) from Christ"... and yes, depending on the construction, also "of Christ", but in a separating way, never a possessive one. Please don't get me wrong: I'm no "Ciceronian" and I really like the stylistic liberties of the pre-classic and post-classic periods, but there is a standard we must agree on. Petrus Tectander (disputatio) 00:53, 28 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Sorry, I made a couple of changes before I noticed this discussion. I don't think I did any harm. I left "Grandis Magister" alone, not having tried to find an official Latin version of this title.

text: ::::I didn't leave Ordo Militiae Iesu Christi as a redlink, but I wasn't intending to preempt anyone's decision: it could be a good idea to create an article for the revived order under that title. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:38, 28 Iunii 2022 (UTC)

text: ::::I am deeply grateful for your explanations, and I think your final version obtain the perfect balance between standard Latin and the modernity that I have tried to attribute to him.  2001:8A0:EC74:D000:9517:4AA4:B2FE:48EE 04:02, 29 Iunii 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ordo Christi