Disputatio:Nationes mundi

message: This talk-page discusses some of the finer points that arise from the creation of a list of countries. This is a work-in-progress, so do comment!
===Progress===
The Main Page still invites participation here, but the last edit was 15 months ago.
If there's finality about this model, please, someone, say so (preferably with a link to other relevant pages if any). Robin Patterson 03:44 iul 18, 2005 (UTC)
== Propositiones==
Salvete 
*Propono etiam addere Terrae Humiles ( traductio Nederland) nomini Bataviae.
*Propono "Res publica foederalis Germaniae"aut "Germana"
*Propono addere Petra clara aut Petra Lucis Lichtensteno
--Marc mage 21:35, 10 Aprilis  2006 (UTC)
==Littera z==
Salvete
Littera z non familliare in lingua Latina id evitandum censeo. Memorate Sion pro Zionem.
Ergo:
* Cilimandiarus non Cilimandzarus
* Sambesis fluvius non Zambesis
* Gibutis civitas ut pronuntiatio Aegypta litterae Arabicae Gimalem non Dzimalem.--Agnus 00:18, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Minime. Littera Z est bona littera latine, quae sonat differenter litterae S.--Rafaelgarcia 00:54, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: : Romani antiqui litteram z solum in verbis ortis ex lingua Graeca aut per illam translatis utiebantur. Multitudo nominum Africanorum non orta est ex lingua Graeca aut translata per illam.--Agnus 18:56, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Erras, Agne. Romani littera z usi sunt in nominibus permultis oppidorum Africanorum. Vide p. ex. Itinerarium Antonini in provinciis Africae septentrionalis.  Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:12, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
===Contra "Dzibutum"===
Littera initialis "Dzibuti" originaliter "Gimel" (ج) Arabicum est.
In nominibus traditionalibus littera ipse Latine "g" scriptum est.
Exempla:
*الجزائر  = "a-l-dʒ-z-a-i-r" = "Algeria" (lat.), "Alger" (gall.) (Consonans centralis "ز" [z] perdita in linguis Europaeis)
*جبل طارق  = "dʒ-b-l ț-a-r-q"= Calpe (lat.) = "Gibraltar" quasi in omnibus linguis Latine scriptis novis.
* جدة  = "dʒ-d-ah"  = "Gidda" sive "Jeddah" ("g" ante "i" pronuntiatur [dʒ])
*جيبوتي  ="dʒ-i-b-u-t-i", Scribendum "gibuti" est. Optiones grammaticales:
**"Gibuti" – plurale grammaticum ut "Cannae"
**"Gibutis" – declinandum ut "vis"
**"Gibutis" – declinandum ut "navis"
**"Gibutium"
**"Gibutum" --Agnus 20:47, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

text: Si vis movere paginam, debes prius fontes reperire. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:14, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Exempla collecta ex Vicipaediis nationalibus non sunt documenta regulaene?--Agnus 23:02, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Solum si haec Wikipaedia dat nomen Latine, i.e. si dicunt Gibutum est nomen Latine.--Rafaelgarcia 23:23, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

text: ::Oportet hanc disputationem de Dzibuto movere ad paginam Disputatio:Dzibutum. Hic oportet solum nomen huius paginae, i.e. Nationes Mundi disputare.--Rafaelgarcia 23:20, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
==Which are the correct Latinized country names?==
Coming up with correct Latinized country names isn't as easy as it may seem. There are often several versions, some of which may not seem correct to everyone:

text: e.g. France = Francia, Francogallia, Gallia
I suggest adopting those names used by the Nuntii Latini as that is living Latin. -- [Anon]

text: This page was mostly written two years ago, before the country pages existed. Now that they do exist, if you want to propose a change of name, you will have to go to the disputatio page for each country and propose the change. You may need to cite more than one source, and also consider what sources there are for the current name. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:36, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Neander, I see now that it was you! I thought I was replying to just one more anonymous user wanting to change names and not write pages ... If you propose a change, I suspect you'll do the research first. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:46, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
Uncertain are (second possibilites from this website):
*Africa Australis or Africa Meridionalis (or both correct)
*Bangladesia or Bangladesa
*Butanum or Butania
*Camerunia or Camarunia
*Campucea or Cambosia
*Casachia or Kazakistania
*Chirgisia or Cirgisia
*Costarica or Costa Richa
*Cyprus or Cyprus Insula
*Emiratus Arabici Uniti or Confoederatae Arabicae Phylarchiae
*Erythraea or Erytraea
*Francia or Gallia or Francogallia
*Guatemala or Guatimala
*Guinea Aequatorensis or Guinea Aequinoctialis
*Haïti or Haitia
*Insula Barbatianae or Barbata
*Insula Mauritiana or Mauritius Insula (or both correct)
*Insulae Salomonicae or Insulae Salomoniae
*Insulae Sancti Tomae et Principis or Sancti Thomae et Prinsipis
*Insulae Tuvaluae or Tuvaluae Insulae
*Insulae Vincentianae et Grenadinae or Civitas Insula Vincentiana et Grenadina
*Kataria or Quataria
*Kuvaitum or Cuvaitum
*Laotium or Laosium
*Lichtensteinum or Lichtenstenum
*Malium or Malia
*Mauretania or Mauritania
*Monoecus or Herculis Monoeci Portus
*Nicaragua or Nicaraqua
*Pakistanum or Pakistania
*Paraguaium or Paraguaia
*Philippinae Insulae or Insulae Philippinae
*Respublica Dominicana or Dominica
*Suecia or Suetia
*Usbecia or Uzbecia
Names of countries not listed in the current Nationes mundi-article:
*Antigua et B.???
*Baharina Insula
*Belavia
*Salvatoria
*Sancta Lucia
*Sanctus Marinus
*Sinae
*Singapura
*Sri Lanca
*Surinamia
*Tadzikistania
*Taivania
*Thailandia
*Timoria Orientalis
*Tonga
*Turcmenia
*Uraquaria/Uruguaia
*Vietnamia
Sources for coming up with names might be:
*Country names in 40 languages
*Nuntii Latini
*Friars in the World (anglice)
----
==Template for country articles==
A template for a country article might look like this:
Republik Österreich
Vexillum
Signum
Sententia nationis: nihil
Locus Austriae
Sermo publicus             
???
Caput                       
???
Area - Summa  - % aquaelocum ??? obtinet  ??? km²  ???%               
Multitudo 
 - Summa (annus) 
 - Densitaslocum ??? obtinet
 ??? (2003)
 ???/km² 
Moneta                      
???
==Geographia==
==Historia==
==Nexus externi==
----
== Nominatio nationum Vaticana  ==
* Fons: publicationes Vaticanae fons linguae Latinae vitalis
Reproductio es fonte:
Aequatoria, Africa Septentrionalis, Americae Septentrionalis Foederatae Civitates, Anglia et Cambria, Angola et Sacti Thomae Insula, Antillae, Arabiae Civitates, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bielorussia, Bolivia, Botsuana et Africa Meridionalis et Suazilandia, Brasilia, Burkina Faso et Niger, Camarunia, Canada, Chilia, Columbia, Corea, Costaricha, Cuba, Guinea, Haitia, Helvetia, Hibernia, Hispania, Honduria, Hungaria, Iaponia, India: C.C.B.I., Indonesia, Italia, Kenia, Laosium et Cambosia, Liberia, Lituania, Lusitania, Madagascaria, Malavium, Malia, Mexicum, Mozambicum, Namibia, Nederlandia, Nigeria, Nova Zelandia, Pacificum, Pakistania, Panama, Papua Nova Guinea et Insulae Salomoniae, Paraguaia, Peruvia, Polonia, Respublica Cecha, Scotia, Senegal et Mauritania et Promontorium Viride et Guinea Bissavia, Sinae, Srilanca, Sudania, Tanzania, Thailandia, Ucraina, Uganda, Uruguaia, Venetiola, Vietnamia, Zambia, Zimbabvia.
Omnia nomina cogitantia non censeo sed adiuvantia. Zimbabuam ad Zimbabviam non movibo. --Agnus 23:55, 30 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
==Ukraine==
"Ukraine" is Parva Russia in Latin. Hellerick 16:53, 7 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

text: What is your source? Ucraina is well attested in Latin, as the Ucraina page shows.--Rafaelgarcia 17:32, 7 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :The earlier name for Ukraine was "Little Russia", it was relatively recently discarded by local nationalists as derogative. "Μικρά Ρωσία" was the term for this land used by the Byzatines, and "Russia Parva" (or Russia Minor etc.) was its Latin equivalent. The meaning of this term was gradually changing, until it became what was known as "Малороссiя" in Russian, i.e. equivalent to Ukraine.

text: :Sources? Just google "Parva Russia", "Parvae Russiae" etc. E.g. Grammatica Slavo-Ruthena calls Ukrainian language "Parvo-Russica" (litteral translation of the Russian term "малоросскiй"); and Nachrichten von der Georg-Augusts-Universität und der Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften; 1864-93, Nachrichten von der Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften und der Georg-Augusts-Universität mentions "Russia Parva" (page 260, item #37) among other lands of Europe, stating that the Pole Star is seen at 51 degrees from it. Hellerick 06:18, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I've copied this discussion to Disputatio:Ucraina. Please continue there. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:42, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::"Russia Parva" should be mentioned at least in parentheses. Hellerick 10:57, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
==Vexillum Cypri==
Care 82.198.57.212, usor sine nomine, cur delevisti vexillum Cypri? IacobusAmor 00:09, 19 Septembris 2011 (UTC)
== Dependent or not widely recognised territories ==
I've reverted the edits of an anonymous editor because they deleted all the images, but there was another issue: We have several dépendent territories (e.g. Greenland} and not widelly recognised countries (e.g. Somaliland) in the list. It may be useful to have them there, but perhaps we should distinguish them somehow. Sigur (disputatio) 07:48, 14 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Salvete utentes!

message: The Main Page still invites participation here, but the last edit was 15 months ago.
If there's finality about this model, please, someone, say so (preferably with a link to other relevant pages if any). Robin Patterson 03:44 iul 18, 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Progress

message: Salvete 
*Propono etiam addere Terrae Humiles ( traductio Nederland) nomini Bataviae.
*Propono "Res publica foederalis Germaniae"aut "Germana"
*Propono addere Petra clara aut Petra Lucis Lichtensteno
--Marc mage 21:35, 10 Aprilis  2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propositiones

message: Salvete
Littera z non familliare in lingua Latina id evitandum censeo. Memorate Sion pro Zionem.
Ergo:
* Cilimandiarus non Cilimandzarus
* Sambesis fluvius non Zambesis
* Gibutis civitas ut pronuntiatio Aegypta litterae Arabicae Gimalem non Dzimalem.--Agnus 00:18, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Minime. Littera Z est bona littera latine, quae sonat differenter litterae S.--Rafaelgarcia 00:54, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: : Romani antiqui litteram z solum in verbis ortis ex lingua Graeca aut per illam translatis utiebantur. Multitudo nominum Africanorum non orta est ex lingua Graeca aut translata per illam.--Agnus 18:56, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Erras, Agne. Romani littera z usi sunt in nominibus permultis oppidorum Africanorum. Vide p. ex. Itinerarium Antonini in provinciis Africae septentrionalis.  Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:12, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
===Contra "Dzibutum"===
Littera initialis "Dzibuti" originaliter "Gimel" (ج) Arabicum est.
In nominibus traditionalibus littera ipse Latine "g" scriptum est.
Exempla:
*الجزائر  = "a-l-dʒ-z-a-i-r" = "Algeria" (lat.), "Alger" (gall.) (Consonans centralis "ز" [z] perdita in linguis Europaeis)
*جبل طارق  = "dʒ-b-l ț-a-r-q"= Calpe (lat.) = "Gibraltar" quasi in omnibus linguis Latine scriptis novis.
* جدة  = "dʒ-d-ah"  = "Gidda" sive "Jeddah" ("g" ante "i" pronuntiatur [dʒ])
*جيبوتي  ="dʒ-i-b-u-t-i", Scribendum "gibuti" est. Optiones grammaticales:
**"Gibuti" – plurale grammaticum ut "Cannae"
**"Gibutis" – declinandum ut "vis"
**"Gibutis" – declinandum ut "navis"
**"Gibutium"
**"Gibutum" --Agnus 20:47, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

text: Si vis movere paginam, debes prius fontes reperire. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:14, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Exempla collecta ex Vicipaediis nationalibus non sunt documenta regulaene?--Agnus 23:02, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Solum si haec Wikipaedia dat nomen Latine, i.e. si dicunt Gibutum est nomen Latine.--Rafaelgarcia 23:23, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

text: ::Oportet hanc disputationem de Dzibuto movere ad paginam Disputatio:Dzibutum. Hic oportet solum nomen huius paginae, i.e. Nationes Mundi disputare.--Rafaelgarcia 23:20, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Littera z

message: Littera initialis "Dzibuti" originaliter "Gimel" (ج) Arabicum est.
In nominibus traditionalibus littera ipse Latine "g" scriptum est.
Exempla:
*الجزائر  = "a-l-dʒ-z-a-i-r" = "Algeria" (lat.), "Alger" (gall.) (Consonans centralis "ز" [z] perdita in linguis Europaeis)
*جبل طارق  = "dʒ-b-l ț-a-r-q"= Calpe (lat.) = "Gibraltar" quasi in omnibus linguis Latine scriptis novis.
* جدة  = "dʒ-d-ah"  = "Gidda" sive "Jeddah" ("g" ante "i" pronuntiatur [dʒ])
*جيبوتي  ="dʒ-i-b-u-t-i", Scribendum "gibuti" est. Optiones grammaticales:
**"Gibuti" – plurale grammaticum ut "Cannae"
**"Gibutis" – declinandum ut "vis"
**"Gibutis" – declinandum ut "navis"
**"Gibutium"
**"Gibutum" --Agnus 20:47, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Si vis movere paginam, debes prius fontes reperire. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:14, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Exempla collecta ex Vicipaediis nationalibus non sunt documenta regulaene?--Agnus 23:02, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Solum si haec Wikipaedia dat nomen Latine, i.e. si dicunt Gibutum est nomen Latine.--Rafaelgarcia 23:23, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

text: ::Oportet hanc disputationem de Dzibuto movere ad paginam Disputatio:Dzibutum. Hic oportet solum nomen huius paginae, i.e. Nationes Mundi disputare.--Rafaelgarcia 23:20, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Contra "Dzibutum"

message: Coming up with correct Latinized country names isn't as easy as it may seem. There are often several versions, some of which may not seem correct to everyone:
replies: text: e.g. France = Francia, Francogallia, Gallia
I suggest adopting those names used by the Nuntii Latini as that is living Latin. -- [Anon]

text: This page was mostly written two years ago, before the country pages existed. Now that they do exist, if you want to propose a change of name, you will have to go to the disputatio page for each country and propose the change. You may need to cite more than one source, and also consider what sources there are for the current name. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:36, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Neander, I see now that it was you! I thought I was replying to just one more anonymous user wanting to change names and not write pages ... If you propose a change, I suspect you'll do the research first. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:46, 1 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
Uncertain are (second possibilites from this website):
*Africa Australis or Africa Meridionalis (or both correct)
*Bangladesia or Bangladesa
*Butanum or Butania
*Camerunia or Camarunia
*Campucea or Cambosia
*Casachia or Kazakistania
*Chirgisia or Cirgisia
*Costarica or Costa Richa
*Cyprus or Cyprus Insula
*Emiratus Arabici Uniti or Confoederatae Arabicae Phylarchiae
*Erythraea or Erytraea
*Francia or Gallia or Francogallia
*Guatemala or Guatimala
*Guinea Aequatorensis or Guinea Aequinoctialis
*Haïti or Haitia
*Insula Barbatianae or Barbata
*Insula Mauritiana or Mauritius Insula (or both correct)
*Insulae Salomonicae or Insulae Salomoniae
*Insulae Sancti Tomae et Principis or Sancti Thomae et Prinsipis
*Insulae Tuvaluae or Tuvaluae Insulae
*Insulae Vincentianae et Grenadinae or Civitas Insula Vincentiana et Grenadina
*Kataria or Quataria
*Kuvaitum or Cuvaitum
*Laotium or Laosium
*Lichtensteinum or Lichtenstenum
*Malium or Malia
*Mauretania or Mauritania
*Monoecus or Herculis Monoeci Portus
*Nicaragua or Nicaraqua
*Pakistanum or Pakistania
*Paraguaium or Paraguaia
*Philippinae Insulae or Insulae Philippinae
*Respublica Dominicana or Dominica
*Suecia or Suetia
*Usbecia or Uzbecia
Names of countries not listed in the current Nationes mundi-article:
*Antigua et B.???
*Baharina Insula
*Belavia
*Salvatoria
*Sancta Lucia
*Sanctus Marinus
*Sinae
*Singapura
*Sri Lanca
*Surinamia
*Tadzikistania
*Taivania
*Thailandia
*Timoria Orientalis
*Tonga
*Turcmenia
*Uraquaria/Uruguaia
*Vietnamia
Sources for coming up with names might be:
*Country names in 40 languages
*Nuntii Latini
*Friars in the World (anglice)
----
thread_title: Which are the ''correct'' Latinized country names?

message: A template for a country article might look like this:
Republik Österreich
Vexillum
Signum
Sententia nationis: nihil
Locus Austriae
Sermo publicus             
???
Caput                       
???
Area - Summa  - % aquaelocum ??? obtinet  ??? km²  ???%               
Multitudo 
 - Summa (annus) 
 - Densitaslocum ??? obtinet
 ??? (2003)
 ???/km² 
Moneta                      
???
thread_title: Template for country articles

thread_title: Geographia

thread_title: Historia

message: ----
thread_title: Nexus externi

message: * Fons: publicationes Vaticanae fons linguae Latinae vitalis
Reproductio es fonte:
Aequatoria, Africa Septentrionalis, Americae Septentrionalis Foederatae Civitates, Anglia et Cambria, Angola et Sacti Thomae Insula, Antillae, Arabiae Civitates, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bielorussia, Bolivia, Botsuana et Africa Meridionalis et Suazilandia, Brasilia, Burkina Faso et Niger, Camarunia, Canada, Chilia, Columbia, Corea, Costaricha, Cuba, Guinea, Haitia, Helvetia, Hibernia, Hispania, Honduria, Hungaria, Iaponia, India: C.C.B.I., Indonesia, Italia, Kenia, Laosium et Cambosia, Liberia, Lituania, Lusitania, Madagascaria, Malavium, Malia, Mexicum, Mozambicum, Namibia, Nederlandia, Nigeria, Nova Zelandia, Pacificum, Pakistania, Panama, Papua Nova Guinea et Insulae Salomoniae, Paraguaia, Peruvia, Polonia, Respublica Cecha, Scotia, Senegal et Mauritania et Promontorium Viride et Guinea Bissavia, Sinae, Srilanca, Sudania, Tanzania, Thailandia, Ucraina, Uganda, Uruguaia, Venetiola, Vietnamia, Zambia, Zimbabvia.
Omnia nomina cogitantia non censeo sed adiuvantia. Zimbabuam ad Zimbabviam non movibo. --Agnus 23:55, 30 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nominatio nationum Vaticana  

message: "Ukraine" is Parva Russia in Latin. Hellerick 16:53, 7 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your source? Ucraina is well attested in Latin, as the Ucraina page shows.--Rafaelgarcia 17:32, 7 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :The earlier name for Ukraine was "Little Russia", it was relatively recently discarded by local nationalists as derogative. "Μικρά Ρωσία" was the term for this land used by the Byzatines, and "Russia Parva" (or Russia Minor etc.) was its Latin equivalent. The meaning of this term was gradually changing, until it became what was known as "Малороссiя" in Russian, i.e. equivalent to Ukraine.

text: :Sources? Just google "Parva Russia", "Parvae Russiae" etc. E.g. Grammatica Slavo-Ruthena calls Ukrainian language "Parvo-Russica" (litteral translation of the Russian term "малоросскiй"); and Nachrichten von der Georg-Augusts-Universität und der Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften; 1864-93, Nachrichten von der Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften und der Georg-Augusts-Universität mentions "Russia Parva" (page 260, item #37) among other lands of Europe, stating that the Pole Star is seen at 51 degrees from it. Hellerick 06:18, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I've copied this discussion to Disputatio:Ucraina. Please continue there. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:42, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::"Russia Parva" should be mentioned at least in parentheses. Hellerick 10:57, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Ukraine

message: Care 82.198.57.212, usor sine nomine, cur delevisti vexillum Cypri? IacobusAmor 00:09, 19 Septembris 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Vexillum Cypri

message: I've reverted the edits of an anonymous editor because they deleted all the images, but there was another issue: We have several dépendent territories (e.g. Greenland} and not widelly recognised countries (e.g. Somaliland) in the list. It may be useful to have them there, but perhaps we should distinguish them somehow. Sigur (disputatio) 07:48, 14 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dependent or not widely recognised territories