Disputatio:Fabula criminalis

message: (1) Neander, the topic being defined here is detective fiction, a subgenre of crime fiction (alongside "courtroom drama," "hard-boiled fiction," and "legal thriller"), but the new lemma, fabula criminalis, looks like an attempt to translate "crime story" instead. If we're going to translate "detective fiction" as fabula criminalis, what's the best translation of "crime fiction"? and what Latin terms work best for "courtroom drama," "hard-boiled fiction," and "legal thriller"?
(2) Both Cassell's and Traupman say to translate "criminal" as scelestus (to which Cassell's adds sceleratus and nefarius, and Traupman adds facinerosus). Cassells's Latin section doesn't list criminalis at all, though it's in L&S, with its basic meaning apparently relating to the fact that crimen is fundamentally a verdict, charge, or accusation and only by transference the fault or offense being charged.
(3) On a related topic: for "detective," Traupman gives inquisitor and indigator; the former seems reasonable in view of L&S's definition of it: "one who searches for a suspected person, an inquisitor, tracker, detective, spy." Quaestor may be pertinent, though it should perhaps be limited here to its historical senses (in ancient Roman law). Do we have any better word than inquisitor (which, after all, has a particular meaning in religious history)? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:46, 21 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Vilborg's "fabula criminalis" was found sub voce "detektivroman" which looked close enough to "detective fiction", so I changed the title in order to get a sourced entry. When doing this, I had a funny feeling that I might soon get a reclamation from someone keen on typology. Obviously you're right, and obviously there's still a lot to do... You're free to correct my bull-ing in a china shop. Neander (disputatio) 15:10, 21 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :The typological concern comes from the desirability of coordinating with other wikis. The pertinent article that's on the list of the ten thousand most important articles is Detective fiction, not  Crime fiction. Vicipaedia continues to lose points for not having many of those articles. (At the moment, about three thousand are missing.) Inattention to this coordination downgrades Vicipaedia in relation to the other wikis. For example, of the one (!) thousand most important articles, Vicipaedia seems not to have an article corresponding to Snake !!! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:31, 21 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ::These questions need to be resolved. If fabula criminalis is the best translation of 'detective fiction', what's the best translation of 'crime fiction'? And why is fictio not the best translation of 'fiction'? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:33, 25 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :::It seems to me, so long as we only have the one article, and so long as it meets Iacobus's demand for a Wikidata link in the correct list, and so long as we have the Latin equivalent term in a good source, and so long as that Latin term is not self-evidently false, we should use it, at least for now.

text: :::The difference between detective fiction and crime fiction seems fuzzy to me, and I admit not having read the two English articles which no doubt define the distinction to a nicety. In my current temporarily slightly disabled state, re-reading Sherlock Holmes has been more fun. Sorry. But anyway we don't have to resolve it until someone starts the second article. That person really does have to resolve it.
replies: text: ::::I have just looked at those English articles, and I see that en:Detective fiction, like any youngster caught up in crime, has "multiple issues". It's not safe to translate from an article marked thus, unless one is confident of dealing with any such issues that are really significant. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:19, 26 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::Nevertheless, "detective fiction" remains one of the 10,000 most important articles, highly desirable to have. Since it's a subset of "crime fiction," I'd think that "crime fiction" would be the even more desirable article, but that's an argument for another day and another place. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:02, 27 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
=== Bulls in china shops ===
On the idiom of "bull in a china shop": Mythbusters (TV show) apparently ran an experiment on that, and it turns out that bulls are quite well-behaved in china shops, not breaking the china at all. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:33, 25 Februarii 2020 (UTC)

text: Hmm, but did they try introducing a cow? At that point, if china gets in the way, I think the china would suffer. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:19, 26 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :: Well, in Finnish, it's elephant that is said to rampage in a china shop. Another interesting task for the Mythbusters? Neander (disputatio) 22:17, 26 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :::The bull (elephant) seems to have turned out to be a (red) herring! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:02, 27 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Lemma

message: On the idiom of "bull in a china shop": Mythbusters (TV show) apparently ran an experiment on that, and it turns out that bulls are quite well-behaved in china shops, not breaking the china at all. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:33, 25 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, but did they try introducing a cow? At that point, if china gets in the way, I think the china would suffer. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:19, 26 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :: Well, in Finnish, it's elephant that is said to rampage in a china shop. Another interesting task for the Mythbusters? Neander (disputatio) 22:17, 26 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :::The bull (elephant) seems to have turned out to be a (red) herring! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:02, 27 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulls in china shops 

message: Does Latin have an idiom for this?—perhaps a phrase that has nothing to do with herrings & colors? The obvious harenga rubra is too calquelike for comfort! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:51, 21 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Google tells us that someone did use harenga rubra (in an English & Catholic context) on the internet in 2014, presumably in the belief that his readers would understand the term. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:59, 21 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :Es:Wiki gives "Red Herring" as an equivalent to "ignoratio elenchi", but I don't know if that'd work...--Xaverius 14:40, 21 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :: "Red herring" is an expression that makes sense in English, but not in Latin. "Ignoratio elenchi" covers some uses of "red herring". In general use, Cicero's (de oratore 3.205) "erroris inductio" might cover the metaphorical meaning of the expression. Neander (disputatio) 15:16, 21 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Since the fifteenth century (says Webster), a red herring has been "a herring cured by salting and slow smoking to a dark brown color." According to Wikipedia, a similar formulation is found in a text from about 1250: "He eteþ no ffyssh But heryng red" ('He eateth no fish but herring red') The Latin for that could well associate harenga (or some other noun referring to a herringlike fish) with rubra (or some other similar color), and given that many Latin texts from England from the thirteenth century on are in Latin, some such direct translation may be attested. The use of the phrase to denote a distraction apparently dates from the early nineteenth century. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:45, 21 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::So if the figurative use of 'red herring' is that modern, but the sense of following a false or misguided track exists before (as per Cicero), should we have a Erroris inductio or Ignoratio elenchi article to describe this concept?--Xaverius 11:53, 25 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::: Both, I'd say. Neander (disputatio) 15:40, 25 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::Definitely! Vicipaedia should have articles on everything! :) IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:33, 25 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::Everything notable. For a start!

text: :::::::I don't know if anyone cares about this, but red herring is a special use of an expression that was already used in a literal sense in Old French, hareng saur. I noticed this when translating Walter of Bibbesworth's Tretiz, because Walter exemplifies the old French words in the red part of the spectrum. Harenc sor (modern French hareng saur) could at that time have been understood in two ways, "sour = pickled herring" or "chestnut-coloured herring". If you're a herring-eater, both may seem valid, because pickled and smoked herring is often of that colour. The first interpretation is probably the original one, but if you took the second interpretation and translated it from Norman French into early middle English, since middle English was poor in these colour terms, you would eventually reach modern English "red herring". That is what happened: see line 316 and context of Walter's poem. The marginal English gloss reed (="red") is applied to all three of the Norman French words, rous, sor, goules. Hence a now-forgotten historical name for the strong-smelling delicacy that attracts me at my lunch sometimes and also hunting dogs when someone wants to lead them away from the real trail.

text: :::::::I haven't encountered a real Latin translation, and surely, in an article about the metaphorical "red herring", few if any would understand us if we invented a Latin name based on the obscure modern English. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:05, 25 Februarii 2020 (UTC)

text: :::::::In an article about real physical smoked herring (pace OED the term "red herring" has not ben used in this sense for a long time now, though it used to be), if we failed to find a mention of it in Latin, we would do better to devise a term on the basis of the oldest and clearest vernacular names, e.g. Norman harenc sor. Taking its original meaning, that might come across as "harenga condita" (for example). Now, what's the Latin for rollmops, bloaters ...? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:02, 26 Februarii 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: "Red herring"