Disputatio:Systema endocrineum

message: I'm not sure about the move to "systema endocrines". I understand the etymological argument, but 
# as noted in the summarium, Terminologia histologica gives "Systema endocrinum" (see here) -- and if there is a good authority for a modern scientific Latin term we normally accept it in the scientific context
# the adjective declension "-ēs -ĕs" is OK in Greek but seems to me quite unusual in Latin.
Any other opinions? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:06, 13 Septembris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Andrew Dalby. Thank you for your critical remarks. I am familiar with the latest Terminologia histologica (and Terminologia Anatomica) and the preceding versions of the Nomina Histologica (and Nomina Anatomica). When browsing through these various editions, you can see a lot of orthographic zig-zagging through the years. Anulus->annulus->anulus, meningeus->meningicus->meningeus/meningealis->meningeus,oesophageus->oesophagicus->esophageus->esophageus/esophagealis-> oesophageus/oesophagealis, taenia->tenia->taenia, et cetera. Moreover, differences in orthography (aqueductus/aquaeductus, adhesio/adhaerens, pre/prae) exist currently between the Terminologia Anatomica, Terminologia Histologica and Terminologia Embryologica. And even multiple adjectival forms exist within each Terminologia (without any difference in meaning) Although I am using the names as used by these three lists, I try to carefully consider whether the adjective or noun is constructed carefully or more or less based on a little Latin and largely based on English, French, Italian or Spanish. In  case of endocrinus/-a/-um I doubt whether this compound was constructed carefully. In Latin, there are not much loan adjectives ending. on  -ης/ες, with a few on -oides. Maybe I am mistaken but are those loan adjectives derived from -ης/ες declined similarly as those loan adjectives on -oides (M/F,Sing  N: -es, G: -is, D: -i, Acc: -em, D: -i, Abl: -e, Plur: -es, -um, -ibus, -es, -ibus, N, Sing: -es, -is, -i, -es, -e, Plur: -a, -um, -ibus, -a, -ibus, according to Stearn, Botanical Latin)? Otherwise, in the Latin wikipedia, umerus is used instead of humerus (Terminologia Anatomica), axon is used as masculine (which is of course correct), while the Terminologia Histologica considers it as neuter, words are written with prae-, while the Terminologia Anatomica consistently uses pre- (while the Terminologia Embryologica uses prae- in almost each instance). In those cases l'll stick less to the orthography of one the Terminologiae and more to classical Latin or to compounds that correspond to general word formation rules as used in the classical languages. I like to hear your opinion about this issue and what further steps I will have to take. With kind regards, Wimpus (disputatio) 10:19, 13 Septembris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: :Dear Andrew Dalby, a quick search in Lewis & Short, reveals that besides the words on -oides en -odes, a limited number of Greek loan adjectives on ης/ες exist in classical Latin.  I can spot (citing Lewis and Short) aplănēs , adj., = ἀπλανής;  Attĭcurges , is, adj., = Ἀττικουργής and euēthes , is, adj. =  εὐἡθης. I have not checked the Tensaurus Italograecus, which focuses on Greek loan words in Latin. With kind regards, Wimpus (disputatio) 11:16, 13 Septembris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Thanks, Wimpus. I could not remember any words of this declension pattern in classical Latin, so I am glad to know that some existed. I agree that -oides in scientific Latin is a well known and productive termination. That's fine, then: my problem 2 is solved.

text: ::As you already know, classical Latin is our first choice and Lewis&Short is a very good source. Our difficulties come when the words we need to use simply have no classical authority. That's the case here, I think, if neither "endocrines" nor "endocrinus" is classical. Let's wait and see if anyone else comments. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:28, 13 Septembris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Thanks, Andrew. I am interested to know whether loan adjectives from Greek on ης/ες exist that were rendered -us/-a/-um in Latin. It seems to be the case with γενης/genus when using Neolatin sources, but in Lewis and Short, all the words ending on -genus are purely Latin and the sole loanword derived from Greek on γενης, i.e. (Lewis & Short) "mŏnŏgĕnēs , is, m. μονογενής, I.onlybegotten, only, Tert. adv. Valent. 7 sqq." is written with genes. Actually it is not clear  to me whether this an adjective or an adiectivum substantivatum or a real substantivum considering the description of Lewis & Short. In Greek it is actually an adjective. With kind regards, Wimpus (disputatio) 12:14, 13 Septembris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: :::: It seems to me that the hapax words aplanes (Macrobius) and euethes (Ammianus) are rather Greek citations than loan adjectives. This is particularly clear in Amm. 22.8.33 euethen Graeci dicimus stultum; in English: we Greeks call a fool euethes. Clearly, euethes is a loan adjective neither in Latin, nor in English. Macrobius calls a fixed star sphaera aplanes. Here the learned terminology is Greek, though sphaera has its footings in Latin. Aplanes is no more Latin than Aplanes, as used by some English commentators, is English. ¶ Systema endocrines looks prohibitively odd, because it lacks any signs by which it could be parsed as a Latin adjective. Therefore, I'd give preference to systema endocrinum, brought forward by Andrew. Notice that sometimes Greek adjectives in -ης,-ες developed alternative derivational patterns: witness e.g. διακορής ~ διάκορος 'saturated'; or ἐνδογενής ~ ἐνδογενικός. Thus, instead of systema endocrinum we might in principle consider systema endocrinicum.  As far as I can see, both are attested in extravicipaedian sources. Neander (disputatio) 21:16, 13 Septembris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::Dear Neander, thank you very much for carefully studying the aforementioned attested -es-words.

text: :::::1. I did not checked the sentences in which the words were used. You showed me in those aforementioned cases that the evidence that Romans easily adopted Greek adjectives  on -ης/-εζ is far from conclusive.

text: :::::2. In what sense is the possible declension of  'endocrines' different from words on '-odes' or 'oides' that are used more frequently in Latin?

text: :::::3. Kraus Kritisch-etymologisches medicinisches Lexikon (1831) uses forms like endogenes (besides endogenus), homogenes (besides homogeneus), heterogenes (besides heterogeneus). Are adjectives ending on -genes differently declined than a hypothetical 'endocrines'. Interestingly, alternative forms on -genus and -geneus are used. In Lewis and Short, I can only find Latin words, not derived from Greek, on -genus. However for -geneus, eugĕnēus/ s from Greek εὐγενής. In this case it seems that the ending -genes was not easily adopted easily (but see monogenes in Lewis and Short).

text: :::::4. Andrew used the Terminologia Histologica for 'systema endocrinum'. A Google Book search reveals that endocrinus can be traced back to late 19th or early 20 th century (arthritis sicca endocrina), which implies that endocrinus was not a new coinage by the FIPAT (nomenclature committee of thr Terminologia Anatomica). I can not find endocrines used in a Latin expression.

text: :::::5. In Modern Greek, both ενδοκρινης and ενδοκρινικος are used. The latter seems to be part of the tendency in New Greeks to use simple forms that are easily declined, instead of complicated froms on -ης/ες or ος/ον that are not instantly clear.

text: :::::6. As I have not brought forward conclusive evidence that a form such as endocrines can be used without any major objections, I can revert back the changes to the previous endocrinus-situation.

text: :::::However, if you could comment on some of the issues, especially the declension of words on -es in Latin and the possible difference in declension that exist between words on -oides/-odes, -genes and such a hypothetical word as endocrines, I would be very grateful. Thank you very much, with kind regards, Wimpus (disputatio) 06:28, 14 Septembris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::: Hi, Wimpus, your obvious predilection for philological ἀκρίβεια and argumentation is greatly appreciated. (ad 2) I guess it's not the declension but the Gestalt or shape that makes the difference. Words ending with -o(i)des are mostly learned words, rarely employed in oblique cases, and sometimes bearing textual indications that they were originally written in Greek. Whereas these words bear a clear derivational mark (-oid, -od-) conducive to recognising a certain type of declension (-es, gen. -is), there's not too much to begin with in endocrines [In fact, it took a lot of seconds until it dawned upon me what the word was supposed to be all about!]. If endocrines is to be treated as a Latin word, theoretically, its genitive would be endocrinis. (ad 3) Endogenes and eugenes belong to the aforementioned declension. Interestingly, eugenēus may be looked upon as a Roman strategy for fitting Greek loans such as εὐγενής into the Latin grammatical system, and homogeneus, heterogeneus (Kraus) appear to wield the same strategy. Well, systema endocrineum doesn't look bad at all, does it? As a matter of fact, I kind of like it more than the attested endocrinum or endocrinicum. Vale, Neander (disputatio) 15:06, 14 Septembris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::Hi Neander, thank you for your response. Hyrtl in it's Onomatologia Anatomica (1880, p.260) mentions concerning the similar case of substituting Greek -ειδής with -ideus: 'Alle diese Worte sind latinisirte Griechen. Als lateinische Epitheta, kamen sie erst im Anfange des 17. Jahrhunderts in der Anatomie in Aufnahme, meistens durch J. Riolan....Es steht den Lateinern zu, den Diphthong ei in i zu contrahiren, und die Endsilbe ης in eus zu verwandeln..' However, Triepel in it's Die anatomischen Namen (1927, p. 5) does not agree with Hyrtl: 'Sehr häufig begegnen wir anatomischen Namen, die auf -ides [-ideus] ausgehen. Der Grieche bildet, um die Ähnlichkeit eines Gegenstandes mit einem anderen zu bezeichnen, Eigenschaftswörter mit Hilfe der Silben -ειδής (-förmig, von τό είδος die Form). Im Lateinischen wird hieraus ides. (Nicht gestattet ist es, wie Hyrtl meinte, -ειδής in -ideus umzuwandeln.)' Although these quotes are not discussing -nes<->-neus, this case is quite similar. And as you can seen, there exist opposing views. So in this case, I find it hard to make a final decision regarding endocrines, endocrinicus, endocrineus. I have read somewhere else  about the adaptation by the Romans of the -ης-ending, but I can not remember where unfortunately. With kind regards, Wimpus (disputatio) 15:13, 2 Octobris 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::: Hi Wimpus, for the reasons given (by me) above, I think endocrines should be ruled out. To sum up with some additions, the well-attested eugeneus (for εὐγενής; witness Cato, agr. 6.4; Varro, rust. 1.25: Columella 3.2.16) provides, as it does, the pattern by which ἐνδοκρινής, had it existed in antiquity, would have been moulded in Latin: endocrineus. Notice also that differences of morphological treatment of (1) -ειδης > -ides (pace Hyrtl) and (2) -ής > -eus function as evidence against identifying (1) with (2). Finally, endocrinicus would be a Modern Greek loan. But there's no obvious reason why Latin should continue borrowing from MG, especially as we do have an attested ancient pattern that generates endocrineus. Vale, Neander (disputatio) 22:23, 2 Octobris 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not so sure