Disputatio:Sermo patrius

message: The first exemplifies the word-order usually found with a noun and an adjective, but the latter may be idiomatic. See the footnotes in the article. Also, of the examples in L&S (s.v. sermo in the sense 'language, the speech of a nation, etc.'), we have, with numbers added for reference:
*1. cui (Catulo) non solum nos Latini sermonis, sed etiam Graeci ipsi solent suae linguae subtilitatem elegantiamque concedere, Cic. de Or. 2, 7, 28
*2. in Latino sermone, id. ib. 3, 11, 42
*3. quae philosophi Graeco sermone tractavissent, ea Latinis litteris mandaremus, id. Fin. 1, 1, 1
*4. patrii sermonis egestas, Lucr. 1, 832; 3, 260
*5. cum lingua Catonis et Enni Sermonem patrium ditaverit, Hor. A. P. 57
*6. aves, quae sermonem imitantur humanum ... Agrippina turdum habuit imitantem sermones hominum ... lusciniae Graeco atque Latino sermone dociles, Plin. 10, 42, 59, § 120.
1 is irrelevant here (though it does show the parallel possibility of putting a genitive noun first, rather than in its expected place, second); 2, 3, 4, and 6 support putting the adjective first; but of course 4 and 5 (which supports the opposite order) may be discounted on account of the meter. Perhaps we can say, at least, that sermo is likelier than many nouns to accept a qualifying adjective on its left. IacobusAmor 13:45, 3 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I think noun + adjective is more normal for titles in encyclopedias, but I don't feel strongly. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:06, 3 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: : There's no need to change the title. The diligency of the main editor of the article is laudable, but these are matters that can't be solved on the basis of statistics. In classical Latin (a SOV language), the basic, unmarked word order is "N + Adj" (witness sermo patrius in Cic. fin. 1.4.4). But when it comes to textual sentences, pragmatics enters the play. To understand the reason, why a marked word order is being used in a given text sentence, we have to look very closely to the meaning of the text. And Iacobe, I'm afraid that your tentative generalisation "sermo is likelier than many nouns to accept a qualifying adjective on its left" doesn't hold water in a closer research. Neander 15:06, 3 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::What, for convenience, we call idioms may trump "basic word order," and it's the job of dictionaries to notice them. When Cassell's tells Englsh-speakers to translate mother tongue as patrius sermo, one may assume that Cassell's, having done its homework, knows something that one doesn't know. Similarly with such dictionary-sanctioned phrases as civilis ratio 'politics', extrema aestate 'at the end of summer', hodiernus dies 'today', ad hodiernum diem 'up to this time' (Cicero), humanus cultus 'civilization', ineunte aestate 'at the beginning of summer', novus homo 'new man', postmeridianum tempus 'afternoon', and praesens animus 'presence of mind'. And likewise with genitives, like iuris consultus, and rerum natura, and such. IacobusAmor 15:43, 3 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::: I grant that, in principle, idioms may trump basic word order. Another question is whether (or how much of) those examples brought forward by you are unequivocal idioms. But let's stick to sermo patrius. If patrius sermo (suggested by Cassell's) were an idiom, why would Cicero break it in Fin. 1.4 ("admirer, cur in gravissimis rebus non delectet eos sermo patrius")? Both sermo patrius and patrius sermo (in various grammatical cases) are legitimate textual variants. Because it varies syntactically, patrius sermo is not a syntactic idiom. Because its meaning isn't figurative but compositional, patrius sermo isn't a semantic idiom. But sermo patrius exemplifies basic word order. Neander 17:43, 3 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Here are 13 of the 15 notes with which the word order "patrius sermo" was supported.Plinius maior, Ep. 2: "patrio sermone, non instititio et inducto, aliquid exprimere." In Ainsworth, p. 691.Tacitus, Ann. 2, 60, 4: "Jussusque e senioribus sacerdotum patrium sermonem interpretari."Paulus Diaconus, v.: "[Chrodegang,] decorus ac facundus in Latino et in patrio sermone," locus in A Dictionary of Christian Biography, Literature, Sects and Doctrines, edd. Gulielmo Smith et Henrico Wace (Londinii: John Murray, 1877), 499.Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., 3, cap. 24, de Sancto Matthaeo: "Evangelium suum patrio sermone conscribens . . . relinquebat."Iordanes: "repperit in populo suo quasdam magas mulieres, quas patrio sermone Haliurunnas is ipse cognominat." Locus in Arne Soeby Christensen, Cassiodorus, Jordanes and the History of the Goths: Studies in a Migration Myth (Hafniae: Museum Tusculanum Press, 2000), 241.Einhardus, Vita Caroli, 29: "Inchoavit et grammaticam patrii sermonis."Ioannes Aventinus: "Joannes Aventinus, a Bavarian, [whose real name was Thurmaist, and] who wrote about the year 1520, has a curious passage: 'a great number of verses in praise of the virtues of Attila are still extant among us, patrio sermone more majorum perscripta.' Annal. Boior. 1. ii. p. 130, edit. 1627." In Thomas Wartion, ed. W. Carew Hazlitt, History of English Poetry from the Twelfth to the Close of the Sixteenth Century, vol. 1. (Londinii, 1871) 136.Petrus Andreas Matthiolus, Commentarii in libros sex Pedacii Dioscoridis de medica materia (1554), 2: "siquidem patrios sermones intelligunt, summam praestans obedientiam, prudentiam servant, et religionem prae se ferunt."Leo PP. XIII: "Vagiit suaviter in eius ore patrius sermo recens" (The Dublin Review, Ian. 1883, p. 205).L. Pineau: Saxo Grammaticus: quid et quo modo ad gesta Danorum conficienda ex carminibus patrio sermone traditis hauserit (Turonibus: E. Arrault, 1901).Jan den Boeft, de libro Patrii sermonis egestas: Einstellungen lateinischer Autoren zu ihrer Muttersprache (Beiträge zur Altertumskunde Band 150, München-Leipzig: K.G. Saur Verlag, 2000) scribens: "Curiously, whereas most European languages have the term 'mother tongue', the correct Roman equivalent is 'patrius sermo'" (in Bryn Mawr Classical Review, 15 Maii 2001). Pro fonte tituli ("Patrii sermonis egestas"), vide Lucretium supra."Dr. Short's . . . doctoral dissertation, 'Sermo, Sanguis, Semen: An Anthropology of Language in Roman Culture,' explores the relation of the terms patrius sermo and purus sermo in Roman culture." De Gulielmo short apud situm http://utsa.academia.edu/WilliamShort."The present study . . . looks at the context in which Alexander’s patrius sermo occurs in Curtius' [Q. Curtius Rufus'] account of the Philotas affair and what its significance may be, as far as a Makedonian mode of speech is concerned." De patrio sermone Alexandri apud situm http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/AlexandrosPatrius.htm. They argued a point back in 2011, but don't serve any purpose in the article now, certainly not in the first sentence. If anyone disagrees, put them back! Like Latin word order, Vicipaedia is free, see discussion elsewhere :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:01, 10 Decembris 2017 (UTC)
=== Notae ===
thread_title: ''Sermo patrius'' vs. ''patrius sermo''

thread_title:  Notae