Disputatio:Cultura Mayana

message: 'per Paeninsulam Iucataniam (in Mexico), Peten (in Guatemala), Honduriam, et Salvatoriam' :I like using the accusative too. But in the previous phrase, using the ablative is ok isn't it?--Jondel 04:05, 30 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::No, it wasn't, because in Iucataniae is an impossible construction, as Iucataniae isn't ablative. You actually had in Peninsula Iucataniae, which (as pointed out earlier) doesn't mean 'in Yucatan Peninsula' either. IacobusAmor 11:39, 30 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::How about locative? I remember now, I was patterning it after the supposed 'locative' e. g. Roma=>Romae, the first declension locative ends in ae.--Jondel 12:28, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::So, assuming Iucatania is ablative, we can say in Iucatania ? or in Peninsula Iucatania ?--Jondel 00:49, 31 Iulii 2008 (UTC)

text: "Per Paeninsulam..." means "throughout the peninsula"  as opposed to "in Paeninsula..." which means "in/on the peninsula". The difference is one of meaning, both of these being grammatically ok. "In" can also take the accusative but then it means "into/to".--Rafaelgarcia 04:15, 30 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :The meaning changes slightly but thats ok. As mentioned in the Taberna I meant to say something like Maya is one of the civilizations from Central America traditionally located in the Yucatan, Peten, Honduras and El Salvador. Thanks for looking into this.--Jondel 06:21, 30 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::What is "traditionally" supposed to mean? Don't they know?? Did they move outside of central america? It's like saying the romans were traditionally from italy...--Rafaelgarcia 06:34, 30 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::No they knew!! They didn't move out of central America but the civilization died out still the memory was kept alive 'traditionaly' like the Jewish Passover. Whitaker provides tradition for the latin word traditione. In English, tradition, for example, the Jewish Passover, are customs which are handed down generation to generation whether it is certain or for sure or not. Thank you very much for time and effort.--Jondel 00:16, 31 Iulii 2008 (UTC)

text: :::De: "I meant to say something like Maya is one of the civilizations from Central America."—Ah, so that's why you used the preposition ex. But the concept in English is faulty: the Maya weren't so much ex (out of) Yucatan as in (in) or per (throughout) it. IacobusAmor 11:39, 30 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Yes about 'one of the civilizations out of'. Ok, so what are we discussing? As I said, the meaning changes slightly( from the  faulty English concept). It's not a big thing isn't it? I don't think the English wikipedia editors will mind if we correct the version there, to mean 'throughout'. Actually I translated from the interlingua wikipedia version not the English nor Spanish. Anyway, I highly appreciate your looking into this. I will work had on gender agreement and classical usage.  --Jondel 00:33, 31 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: ablatives

message: I feel civilizatio is better and more relevant, aside from being recognizable. I don't see a good reason why we need to use classical when civilizatio is more recognizable. In addition I think it would be good to select either humanus or cultus which both can mean civilization.--Jondel 12:35, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an age-old argument. Since the Renaissance, Latin students have been taught to emulate the ancients in the pursuit of a classical ideal. Civilizatio has two points against it: (1) it's a newfangled word, only a few hundred years old; (2) like all nouns in -tio, its basic meaning must be of a verbal noun ('a civilizing', not 'a civilization'), though of course it can have derivative senses. Neither humanus nor cultus by itself basically means 'civilization', though each has derivative senses that include some of those inherent in 'civilization'. IacobusAmor 13:18, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Look, language has to change, how are you going interpret into classical latin, concepts like blue-tooth, Wi-fi, string theory, CD-ROM, etc. Even here in Japan, (I'm gong back to the Philippines in a short while), there are so many concepts that are cultural and can not be directly translated into English, like the Japanese word domo, kochira koso.etc, Ok if it is possible do use classical. I guess we have to fit in the modern world into the ancient classical one as well.--Jondel 13:31, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::De: "Look, language has to change." Then why are you bothering to learn Latin?! IacobusAmor 13:50, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::I love the complexity of Latin. When I said that, the image I had was people would be living it(Latin).  (I talk , make conversations to myself in a new language I learn). My imaginary Latinists friends would say for example; EmistineEmitisne  CDROM? (Did you buy a cdrom?) Instead of some classically interpreted word for CDROM. But since the French and Israels themselves are removing modern English words and replacing them with a word they derive from their own language, then you are right, everyting can be converted (into classical) without using the modern word. If Latin were to be actually used again, I'm very sure they wouldn't be converting to classical but use the modern word.--Jondel 14:42, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::You can use both words in different contexts. But one of the values of Vicipaedia is classical latin, hence the preference for classical idioms and classical words for things when they are adequate to express the modern idea. On the other hand, the (future) page on Cultus humanus can and should give Civilizatio as an possible synonym, since despite our value of classical we also intend to be a good encyclopedia. Also I think that whenever one uses a word that ancients wouldn't recognize, a defintion should be provided as a footnote or if is a confusing or important term, the term itself should have an article of its own explaining it. Now when it comes to cultura, cultus, cultus humanus, cultus civilis, I am not entirely sure of myself in understanding how they relate to culture (religion, mores, language, etc) and civilization (culture + state or states pertaining thereto), because there seems to be great differences between cultures/languages today to how this issue is perceived, as you can see by comparing the english and spanish wiki pages on civilization. For the latin term used by Caesar, my understanding is: Cultus humanus civilisque = a "human and civil cultivation"=civilization ~ cultus humanus = human cultivation; cultus=cultivation ~ cultura=culture both in a farming and human context of the terms. Civilizatio actually is somewhat ambiguous as well, since it sounds more like civilizing (something done to people by an external agent, like the "US Army civilizing the Apache") than civilization (the large scale social and governmental outcome of human cultural interactions). The sense "civilizatio=civilizing" predominates in my mind unless you think of civilizatio as a borrowing from the modern languages.--Rafaelgarcia 14:32, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::Excellent points. I know dozens of anthropologists, and I've seldom (if ever) heard them speak of "civilization" except pejoratively, as if "civilization" were (1) an idea loaded with deplorable historical baggage, and hence (2) obsolete in polite company. Despite the existence of wiki articles like :en:Maya civilization and numerous references to the concept on the internet, modern anthropologists are probably likelier to speak of "Maya culture" than "Maya civilization." However, because of the root-meaning of civilization, it may be more correct to apply the term to the Maya (who more or less lived in cities) than to the Apache (who more or less didn't). IacobusAmor 14:53, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)

text: :::::I guess one way it would make sense if one parses it as "Civilizatio Maiensis" ="The Maya dominion"= "The civilizing of the peoples by the Maya"; in the same sense as the "Romans civilized the Mediterranean". Anyway it hardly seems tasteful to refer to a civilization that way except in those cases where the people were especially warlike.--Rafaelgarcia 14:44, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::'Dominion' is potestas, ius, imperium, dicio. Maya culture, at least at its peak, was organized into city-states, each (or most) with a king. So I'm not sure that any of these concepts (and certainly not regnum), since they imply a single center & source of power, would apply to the whole Maya-influenced area. Maybe we should think of Maya culture as being like that of ancient Greece, for which we use the term Graecia. Did the Maya have a word for their own culture? If so, maybe we should use it! IacobusAmor 14:53, 14 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Humanus cultus vs. civilizatio