Disputatio:In hibernario

message: I think "in hortis hiemis" would translate "in the gardens of winter" which may be construed as a rather poetical statement about winter, that misses the point that the people pictured are in a conservatory. "in hortuhorto hiemali" ="in the winter garden" maybe more direct or perhaps "hortuhorto hiemali fruens"="enjoying the winter garden" ?--Rafaelgarcia 17:47, 1 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Right: the original French means 'in the greenhouse/conservatory'. I don't see what the notion of 'garden' has to do with it. Maybe it's summertime? Also, hortus is in the second declension. IacobusAmor 18:01, 1 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Right. I fixed my errors above. Given that it means greenhouse, the title should be "in conservatorio" or "conservatorio fruens"? (Conservatorium =Later latin for greenhouse, comes from conservator =keeper/one who preserves)--Rafaelgarcia 18:37, 1 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :: I don't believe that people in the picture are passing their time in a greenhouse. Obviously they're in a Wintergarten ('winter garden'), which is an annex of a house. Though maybe technically similar to a greenhouse, its function is on the side of social life of the leisure class.  :-) For pictures, see here. A more adequate Latin term would be hibernarium. --Neander 21:05, 1 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Winter garden isn't in my English dictionary, and I've never encountered it before. (The things we learn in Vicipaedia!) What you seem to be describing is a conservatory: a room (in or beside a house) in which plants are grown or displayed. IacobusAmor 21:18, 1 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::[Written at the same moment as Iacobus's comment:] Notice the different origins of the interwiki-linked terms there. German is "Wintergarden", Spanish is "Invernadero" or "Invernáculo" and Portuguese is "Jardim de inverno" (cf. Massimo's in hortis hiemis and Neander's hibernarium) but English is "Conservatory (greenhouse)" (cf. Rafael's "Conservatorium"). I agree with Neander that the term greenhouse is inappropriate -- one wouldn't sit and chat in a greenhouse -- but some author on en:wiki evidently disagrees. Another English word for a similar structure is "orangery" (also used in French, "orangerie") but that doesn't help us fix on a Latin term. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:22, 1 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::: Pitkäranta's lexicon gives hibernarium for talvipuutarha/Wintergarten. I don't know his source, but the word is fine, methinks. --Neander 21:41, 1 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::As usual, a Vicipaedia discussion has allowed me to learn a thing or two about various languages, and in this case also greenhouses and how they differ from conservatories, etc.. This is certainly one of the things that makes Vicipaedia so enjoyable! I think, perhaps, in the end, Neander's suggestion seems the most enticing: greenhouse (in general)=conservatorium, conservatory/wintergarden=hibernarium.--Rafaelgarcia 23:25, 1 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::But then again 'conservatory' may best be rendered by conservatorium, a Latin term you'll find even in English contexts; e.g., "Find local contractors to Build a Greenhouse or Conservatorium"—a sentence you can google for yourself. I don't get where you think a conservatory has something to do with winter. It may on the Continent, but doesn't necessarily in America. Year-round, you can visit "The newly renovated Conservatory," which "offers the citizens of Washington and visitors from across the nation a beautiful and fascinating living plant museum here on our Nation's Mall at the foot of the U.S. Capitol" (easily googleable). ¶ This word conservatorium does extra duty for 'conservatory' in reference to a place where music is taught; many such conservatories actually have the Latin word conservatorium in their names—again a point easily proved via Google. IacobusAmor 02:23, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::: serra cella conservandis floribus calefacta from my point of view for a title a bit too long--Massimo Macconi 05:20, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::::I'm happy leaving as conservatorium for the reason Iacobus points out, an hibernarium is a conservatorium. If you add conclave to it it makes all the more sense. Conclave conservatorium= a room for conserving things like plants, conclave hibernarium=a room to enjoy plants in the winter, conclave solarium=a room to enjoy sun without being outside. Or add aedificium and you get the buildings used for such purposes. My one objection against Castiglioni's phrase is that in the effort to avoid all medieval late latin, he has produced not a word but a definition consisting of a short description. (I'm also not sure about cella)--Rafaelgarcia 12:16, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
Well, what has now become crystal-clear is that "Dans la serre" by Manet is "In the conservatory" in English. Now, what brings you to the idea that conservatory is "conservatorium" in Latin? Just because some sort of formal backwards reconstruction from "[...]ory" gives "[...]orium"? Is it that simple? If it is, then by similar reasoning, English "article" would be "articulus" in Latin (though a discussion one year or so ago resulted in the view that it isn't). It'd be nice if somebody could quote "conservatorium" (in the meaning 'greenhouse', 'sunhouse', 'Wintergarten', or the like) from some Latin text or even from a Latin dictionary. [Neander, interrupted for this niceness:]

text: The Oxford English Dictionary finds no noun, but cites the medieval Latin adjective conservatorius. IacobusAmor 20:09, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
Given that French conservatoire, Italian conservatorio, (European) Spanish conservatorio don't share this meaning with English, my hunch is that 'greenhouse' is a separate development in English. But why should Latin go with English? --Neander 19:31, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)

text: I think I'm with you, against conservatorium. The English word "conservatory" was first used in this sense by the gardening author John Evelyn in 1664, as a specialisation of the sense "a storehouse or place for preservation". To make the meaning clearer he called these structures "Conservatories of Hyemation", i.e. places to preserve tender plants through the winter. Thereafter, it appears, English writers kept on with the term "conservatory" while writers in other languages continued to emphasize the "winter" idea.

text: It is true that one can canoodle in conservatories at any season, but the northern winter was surely the reason why such structures exist. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:00, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :I orginally got conservatorium from Words: 
 conservator, conservatoris  N (3rd) M   [XXXCO]  
 keeper, one who preserves; defender; savior; worshiper (late) (L+S);
           
 conservatorium, conservatori(i)  N (2nd) N   [EAXCT]    Later
 greenhouse;

text: :Nevertheless, from the entry it is not clear whether this is the same as a conservatory/serre/wintergarden. I also came across the close synonyms viridarium, solarium, and hibernarium from various other sources on the web, but none of the others had the clear idea of greenhouse or conservatory associated with it. For example a viridarium was described by words as a tree garden, but I found other places that describe it as a pleasure garden, yet it is the most direct translation of a "greenhouse" just by looking at the word. Hibernarium can be found in various places: biologists use it to describe a place where animals hibernate or were they are kept under controlled conditions for study. Solarium is apparently specifically described as a terrace structure in words, and by others as a sun room. I think the wide range of uses comes from the fact that they are strictly speaking each adjectives picking out an aspect of what the structure does. Anyway, it is something that we can continue researching--Rafaelgarcia 20:22, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::[Drafted before Rafael had posted the preceding:]

text: ::Perhaps the discussion will benefit from an exposition of the seven distinct senses of the English word conservatory, here listed (unhyphenated & somewhat abbreviated) in presumed historical order, with the year of the first known attestation of each sense:
replies: text: :::1. That which preserves (1563)

text: :::2. A place where things are preserved; storehouse (1642)

text: :::3. A place for preserving snow or ice; icehouse (1626)

text: :::4. A reservoir of water (1673)

text: :::5. A greenhouse for tender flowers or plants; now, usually an ornamental house into which plants in bloom are brought from the hothouse or greenhouse (1664, cited by Andrew above)

text: :::6. A hospital for the protection and nurture of orphans and foundlings (1626)

text: :::7. A public institution for special instruction in music and declamation (1846; conservatoire in the same sense, 1771; this sense of the term originated in Italian conservatorio, 1537)

text: ::Given the date of the first attestation, I don't see why sense #6 is supposed to have come after #5, but there it is. Nor is it obvious that the most appropriate Latin term for all seven of those senses shouldn't be conservatorium. All seven of the senses develop the idea of conserving, which has clearcut classical Latin antecedents (conservare, conservator). What's the history of the wintery notion of Wintergarten and the French & Italian forms? (The seasonal implication of English sense #3 is spring & summer—the hot-weather season, when ice was a rare treat!) Was there a plant-related sense of conservatoire that was once current in French but has become obsolete? IacobusAmor 20:33, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::: The schools of music (#7) got their start from orphanages (#6). Hence Italian conservatorio which has been borrowed to many languages. This is also the strongest meaning association at least outside the Anglophonic world. As to #5, I surmise its right place would be after #7 in the list. The answer to your last question is: no. Fr. conservatoire has meanings ##6-7, and Bloch & von Wartburg (Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue française) say that it has been borrowed from Italian. --Neander 21:16, 2 Septembris 2008 (UTC)

message: Liceat mihi mea ex parte paucis hanc dimicationem de papae barba concludere. (1) Si putemus omnes sensus verbi Anglici "conservatory" Latino vocabulo "conservatorii" expleri posse (ex ratiocinatione Iacobi nostri), nihil obstet, quin omnes sensus verbi Anglici "article" Latino vocabulo "articuli" expleantur. (2) Utcumque casura res est, equidem arbitror Latinum sermonem et conservatorium et hibernarium capere posse. Per me quisque altero utro utatur verbo. Egomet "conservatorio" utar, cum de schola musica agitur, alioqui repudiabo. --Neander 01:02, 4 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Consentio. Si possumus aliqua minimissima in mundo terminologico Latino efficere, possumus (una cum permultis linguis hodiernis) verbum conservatorium in sensu musicali adoptare; possumus (una cum multis aliis, lingua Anglica excepta) verbum hibernarium in sensu horticulturali adoptare. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:32, 4 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :A propos du mot "orangerie", vide quod scribit Giorgio Gallesio, Traité du citrus (1811), pp.278-9, n.1:
replies: text: ::"Les auteurs qui ont écrit en latin se sont servis également d'une périphrase: Ferraris appelle l'orangerie tectum hibernum; Volcamerius, hibernaculum medicarum arborum; d'autres, cella citraria." --Fabullus 08:11, 4 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peroratio 

message: Titulo Francogallico  Dans la serre selecto a pictore ipso, volui intellegere cur "Francophoni" soli hoc verbum habent pro "Wintergarden/jardim de inverno/greenhouse/hothouse/conservatory". Secundum Dictionnaire historique de la langue française, e verbo serrer ("in ordine mittere") deducunt; ab anno 1660 utuntur ("construction vitrée où l'on met des plantes à l'abri"). Ab anno 1960 videmus "effet de serre" (cf. hisp. "efecto invernadero", angl. "greenhouse effect"). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:54, 4 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Timeo ne de hibernario et conservatorio Neander cum nobis irascatur. Re vera autem nos omnes, ego et Iacobus et Andrew et Fabullus et Neander et caetera, veritatem consectamur, nonne? Egomet equidem nomen aptissimum consecor, quod apto dicto pro "greenhouse effect" usque nunc caro. Et opus nobis est dictum quod distinguit inter "conservatory/wintergarden" et "greenhouse".

text: Ex perspectiva physicae, egomet censeo "conservatorium" aptius esse pro "greenhouse" quod speciale coniunctum huius rei est "calorem conservare" nec solum "plantas per hiemes conservare". In "greenhouse" exempli gratia calor conservatus est et in aestate et in hieme, ut et aestas et hiems sint calidiorae.

text: At non video quod non potest quoque vocabulum "hibernarium" sufficere pro "conservatory/wintergarden" (sicut Neander suadet). Egomet censeo enim omnes "conservatories" (hibernaria) sunt "greenhouses" (conservatoria).

text: Hanc significationem pro "conservatorio" (ut "greenhouse") attribuo, ob sensum logicum habentem vocabulum latinum "conservatorium" nec ob ullam similitudinem linguae anglicae usus. Nihil dependet a lingua anglica.--Rafaelgarcia 01:04, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Sed notanda sunt verba macrohispanica (!): ":ca:Efecte hivernacle, :es:Efecto invernadero, :gl:Efecto invernadoiro". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:06, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Omnia haec verba "Greenhouse effect", "Efecte hivernacle", "Efecte invernadero", mea sententia  sunt accidentia linguistica. Primum habuerunt vocabulum accidentale pro "greenhouse" et tunc appellaverunt effectum "greenhouse" id quod conservationem caloris in "greenhouse" producit. At sensu stricto "greenhouse" Anglice est quodquam conclave aut structura quae continet plantas, et non est necessarium parietes vitreas habere. Et "invernaderos" possunt suo munere fungere et in aestate, sicut apud Lunae superficiem et Martem. Per logicam, et viridarium et conservatorium possunt dici quodquam conclave ubi plantas conservant (greenhouse Anglice sensu stricto), hibernarium et conservatorium possunt dici structura hyali ubi plantas conservant in hieme (invernadero Hispanice sensu stricto),  --Rafaelgarcia 10:13, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::It's like "I think, therefore I am"; if you start from faith in "linguistic accidents", logic can take you a long way. But I think it's time we got back to our rule: sources. We probably thought at first that there were none. However, Neander cites: "Pitkäranta's lexicon gives hibernarium for talvipuutarha/Wintergarten". Fabullus cites: "Volcamerius, hibernaculum medicarum arborum; d'autres, cella citraria" (the latter almost literally an orangery; the former, I guess, a hothouse/greenhouse/conservatory for medicinal plants). Is there a source for "conservatorium" in the required sense?  Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:18, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::In the context from which hibernacululum medicarum arborum is taken, I guess it means something like "a hothouse/greenhouse/conservatory for Median plants", i.e. for specimens of Citrus medica. --Fabullus 12:34, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::Ha! I never thought of that! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:51, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)

text: :::::As cited above, Words gives conservatorium = greenhouse, which is not the same as hibernarium=wintergarden, although the ideas are closely related. Thus my comparison above, arguing that certainly there are three interrelated ideas: 1. a structure that conserves plants which may or may not use glass windows, 2. a structure that uses extensive glass windows to warm a space, 3. a structure that uses glass windows and is used to conserve plants. Perhaps: 1=viridarium/hibernaculum, 2=conservatorium, 3=hibernarium. Obviously all 3 are also 2. But detailed comparisions among the 3 in latin would depend on how many conserving senses one wants to recognize under 2. And of course I'm not sure of the terminology, I'm just trying to synthesize.--Rafaelgarcia 12:45, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::Of course. And forgive the scepticism of a linguist at the notion of "accidentia linguistica"! "There may be one," as Alice admitted, after initially doubting the dormouse's claim that treacle wells exist.

text: ::::::Looking at your 3 ideas, I must admit I have never encountered idea 2 (a conservatory with glass but without plants) and never suspected that "conservatory" in this sense existed. It isn't in the OED. One certainly does learn from these discussions. However, it doesn't seem all that relevant to the present discussion, since in this painting the plants are crowding in on the canoodlers. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:09, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::Perhaps we could build a system of alternatives that would accommodate the concepts catalogued by the OED (above). All are conservatories, so in every case we have conservatorium plus an adjective or a noun in the genitive, and then we have its shorthand equivalent as a bare noun, thus:
replies: text: ::::::::2. conservatorium vini/horrei/bonorum = apotheca, horreum, thesaurus

text: ::::::::3. conservatorium glaciale/glaciei = glaciarium

text: ::::::::4. conservatorium aquarium/aquarum = aquarium

text: ::::::::5. conservatorium hibernarium/plantarum = hibernarium

text: ::::::::6. conservatorium orborum = *orbarium (?!)

text: ::::::::7. conservatorium musicum/musicae = *musicarium (?!)

text: :::::::Of course language is never this regular, so it's unlikely that the asterisked nouns would be encountered in the real world, so I include them only to complete the table. Where context allows, all these examples could be given as merely conservatorium, because all of them serve a function related to the genuine & well-attested Latin concept of conservare and conservator. IacobusAmor 13:55, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::::Perhaps the structure that conserves solar heat can be called a solarium (which is attested in fact as a sun room/terrace structure at top of house).--Rafaelgarcia 14:06, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::::::Ah, yes, now you're talking. I've heard of that! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:08, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::::::Solarium: macte, Rafael!!! ¶ And for 'warehouse', let's not leave out conservatorium mercatorium/mercimonii ~ receptaculum mercium. IacobusAmor 15:01, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC) IacobusAmor 15:01, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
The viridarium was probably the portion of a Roman house closest corresponding to the conservatory depicted, so far as I can make out. (The solarium, I understand, is more of a terrace, not necessarily hortensial.) The Roman greenhouses or hotbeds themselves Pliny and Martial mention are often said to have been called 'specularia' (after the lapis specularis used in place of glass for them) by those who don't read 'specularia' as referring to the panes themselves.  —Mucius Tever 15:27, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)
For the record: in English, people are still being conserved: a headline in today's Wall Street Journal (p. A14) reads: Conserving People and Conserving Threatened Species. IacobusAmor 15:46, 5 Septembris 2008 (UTC)

text: In all the above enjoyable discussion I can see no source for conservatorium in the sense required here, so I am at last moving the page. I will attempt "hibernarium" (aware that "viridarium", though well-attested, is ambiguous because it can also mean a larger and unroofed enclosure). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:57, 21 Iulii 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Francogallice ''Dans la serre''