Disputatio:El Niño

message: Stephanus Berard calls it Puellus, but I've never liked that. --Iustinus 09:18, 19 Martii 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this name is much too long and forgettable. Can we move it to "El Niño"? See all other wikis. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:30, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: :In what way is the English lemma, El Niño/La Niña-Southern Oscillation, shorter? One doesn't read Mandarin, but the lemma 厄爾尼諾南方擺動現象 looks much too long to be saying El Niño ; likewise Japanese エルニーニョ・南方振動. Arabic, too, seems to have the whole phrase. Also, "El Niño" isn't the name of the whole thing; at best, one would want to say "El Niño et La Niña" (the poles of the oscillation). It looks like Southern Oscillation is the scientifically neutral name, and El Niño—a culturally marked reference to the baby Jesus—is the popularistic name, but nuances in the English text suggest that the concepts are distinct (perhaps deserving of separate articles?). Indeed, one could readily foresee, in addition to the present article, an article on popular interpretations of "El Niño." Further, the Southern Oscillation is affected by the Madden-Julian Oscillation, so why not make hose terms analogous? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:13, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: ::In any case, we apparently have a respectable attestation of Puellus, so that would have to be the lemma, with El Niño offered as an alternative? And then where does Agitatio Australis go? Btw, agitatio for 'oscillation' is straight out of Cassell's. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:14, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: :::If puellus was used, I imagine that using puella (even if unattested) is not outrageous. Agitatio australis would need a , but we can give a reference to puellus. Would Agitatio Australis Puellus/Puella work? (and do we need a space on either side of the / ?--Xaverius 19:25, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::Nuances in the English text suggest that the concept of Agitatio Australis doesn't exactly overlap with the concept of El Niño/La Niña. To one's ears, using the latter form (the form that names both states of the climatic phenomenon) for the lemma would imply that, to be consistent, we should change Polus to Polus Septentrionalis-Polus Australis (naming both states of the polar phenomenon)—which of course would be silly, because we have a genuine singular concept in pole, just as we do in oscillation. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:47, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)

text: ::::I'm talking about the title, not the lemma. The English title is "El Niño-Southern Oscillation" --Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:46, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::The English lemma showing up on my screen is El Niño/La Niña-Southern Oscillation. What else are we talking about, if not that? A note on the talk page over there says El Niño-Southern Oscillation is "a term commonly used in the scientific literature." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:53, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::I mean this: :en:El Niño-Southern Oscillation. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:21, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)

text: ::::very long, but shorter than Iacobus thinks. But even that is extremely long: 90% of other wikis call the page "El Niño"! And no one translates "El Niño" -- not even the verbose Anglophones! Might it not be that the rest of the world has got the right idea here? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:46, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::In a word, no! ;) Ask Stephanus Berard! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:49, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::A nice guy, I'm sure, but I don't weigh him heavy against the whole of the rest of the linguasphere.

text: ::::::I noticed the words "culturally marked" above. I fear it is not possible to write, speak or act without cultural marking: even our choice of a language is culturally marked. I suspect that the writers of other languages have reached the same conclusion :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:55, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)

message: It's maybe worth talking about this again, partly because there's some confusion above, or the situation has changed since then. Few wikis actually have a page on the :en:El Niño Southern Oscillation, despite its inclusion in the 1000. None of these currently include La Niña in their titles or lemmata. We don't have to replicate them, but I'd personally lean towards Agitatio australis El Niño. ¶ The page with the most interwikis is :en:El Niño, followed by :en:La Niña; we should probably eventually have separate pages on those. Lesgles (disputatio) 04:03, 9 Martii 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Iacobus raised a question on UV's talk page that relates to this, so I copy in below his question and my attempted answer. UV hasn't commented yet. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:08, 9 Martii 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: :Was it changes that this bot made in Agitatio Australis El Niño / La Niña that caused other wikis no longer to recognize that page and helped cause Latin to slip a notch in the reckoning in the List of Wikipedias by sample of articles? or did the break in the links happen from some random cause? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:23, 9 Martii 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: ::If UV finds a different explanation, believe UV rather than me! But I glanced at this a couple of months ago, and my diagnosis is as follows.

text: ::#At the time when en:wiki had a very long name for its one article on this topic, we translated it, faithfully copying the very long name.

text: ::#The name at en:wiki was then simplified to :en:El Niño, in accordance with common usage and with all other wikis.

text: ::#Later, at en:wiki only, some editors thought that an article with a longer name, covering a more general phenomenon, was needed after all; so it was "forked" and an article with a longer name was recreated. (See :en:Talk:El Niño Southern Oscillation#Re-creation.) But the 1000-page article at en:wiki has always been the older article, the one that now has the short name, :en:El Niño.

text: ::#Our article always retained its very long name (see our talk page). Therefore, from  its title, it now appears to be a clone of the forked, new English article :en:El Niño Southern Oscillation, not the 1000-page :en:El Niño. Some other Wikipedian (probably not a bot, but I don't know) noticed this and made the change at Wikidata.

text: ::#There are several easy solutions, any of which will make us rise nicely in the ratings again whenever they are applied, so all will be well. The quickest solution would be to rename our article :en:El Niño (vel sim.), and then change the interwikis at Wikidata. I see that Lesglas has raised this problem meanwwhile on our discussion page, so I will copy this discussion there: OK? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:57, 9 Martii 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Having now read Lesgles's comment above: personally I'd still go with the rest of the world and call this article "El Niño", as I suggested three years ago. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:08, 9 Martii 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Iacobus no longer argues against the change of title: he writes: "According to the difference-between revisions page, the problem, whatever it was, happened between 5 February and 8 March. By all means change the title and recover those points!" IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:54, 9 Martii 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::Makes sense to me! Lesgles (disputatio) 17:14, 9 Martii 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renovatio disputationis