Disputatio:Vincentius Buneus

message: Did he exist? I don't seem to be able to Google him. The sources look OK, but I can't check them. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:24, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He definitely existed. He is metioned briefly in the History section here. Harrissimo.
replies: text: :Well, yes, but that is probably written by the same contributor. Anyway, thanks: it is possible to Google "Vice Bune", I find. It would be nice to find a mention of him in an independent non-Croatian source.

text: :I see there has also been some questioning at Disputatio:Vanuatu. This begins to look like a hoax to me. IacobusAmor knows about this region. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:38, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::No, I take it back. It's not a hoax. Pages like this  and this  confirm his presence in the record. As to the specific discoveries claimed, I'm not so sure yet. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:54, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::He may well have existed. What I was questioning was the assertion that his expedition was the first European one to reach Vanuatu. All the cited sources are archival and unpublished, so how can we check them? Will the person who apparently has special knowledge of the matter (as presumably by visiting the archives) please step forward? IacobusAmor 19:59, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::The sources cited on this page (see also its Croatian equivalent) are printed, but not easily accessible. If he really got to Vanuatu etc., it's surprising that he hasn't made more of a stir in the literature. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:15, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::But one might have more confidence in them if they included items published in areas other than the one in which the subject is a native son! IacobusAmor 02:24, 21 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Hi, disputatores insolentes! - I was that "Anonymus" adding this condensed compilation on V. Bune in Vicipaedia - but I write better Latin than English; I will try to elucidate this false problem of V. Bune that undeniably existed and really travelled in 16th century as follows:
* His physical tomb is till now well preserved in the local cathedral of Lopud isle nearby port Dubrovnik, and all interested may visit them in holidays via Dubrovnik in Adriatic.
* The exact date of his death is well documented both in archives of Dubrovnik and of Napoli: November 12th, 1612 (his birthday was less exact, but year 1559 is undoubt).
* Some physical kinsmen and descendants of V. Bune persisted: in Lopud island, in Dubrovnik, and up today also in Pacific e.g. in Fidji islands.

text: What's the Fijian evidence? (The article doesn't say he reached Fiji.) IacobusAmor 13:34, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
* On V. Bune appeared (as I know): one article in Italian, and dozen ones in Croatian, and also two ones in Croatian Wikipedia and in Philippine Wikipilipinas, etc.
* The new voluminous monograph in 1,224 pages on this topic was elaborated by the late professor Mitjel Yoshamya, and published in Croatian, Zagreb 2004 (because of interest also reprinted 2006): my Latin text was almost a very condensed digest from there.
* Accross Melanesia up today persisted nearly 60 typical Dalmatian toponyms subequal as in Adriatic Archipelago, and given by V. Bune in 16th century to many local isles, capes, bays, volcanoes etc.- the major sites subsequently are renamed there in Spanish or English (in case of interest I can also made a compilation on these conserved Dalmatian toponyms in SW Pacific).

text: Could you add some evidence for the survival of those (nearly sixty) names? Throughout the Pacific, most of the names given by early European explorers seem not to have survived into modern parlance. IacobusAmor 13:34, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
* The early Dalmatian navigators in overseas, chiefly these from Dubrovnik, had been pragmatic traders prefering a good commerce and not authority. Thus they usually approached to local aborigines by gifts and personal communication, attracting a better and permanent trade useful for both sides. 
* The main problem of accepting V. Bune was not documentary, but more psychological an ideological: he does not belong to the powerful nations of English or Spanish explorators; therefore he was consequently neglected by the westerners (in Google and elsewhere), but really he was well known long ago in Croatia (Yugoslavia), Italy, and also eastwards where he sailed e.g. in India, Philippines, etc. GeoLatina, 24 Septembris 2007

text: Governments, especially the Spanish government, may have had in interest in keeping discoveries secret, so absence from the public record isn't necessarily a surprise. IacobusAmor 13:34, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Thanks very much for this clarification, GeoLatina. (Your English is pretty good, I'd say!) Please do cite the new book by Yoshamya in the article, and give its real exact title, with maybe a Latin translation afterwards.

text: :Yes, when I began to Google "Vice Bune" I was immediately convinced that he existed. No problem there. And I understand the point about "he does not belong to the powerful nations of English or Spanish explorators"; other important explorations have been ignored for the same reason.

text: :The specific claims about his journeys in the Pacific are the ones that will need careful documentation (I think) if Vicipaedia readers are to be persuaded that they are true. That means (I think) we want more exact detail whenever it's possible to give it. For example:
*What kind of document is it that records his journeys in the Pacific? Did he write it himself? In what language? Is any map included? Is it published in full, and where exactly?
*What names did he give to the islands he visited? How confident can we be about the identification of them? Did he describe the islands, their inhabitants, their languages?

text: :Another question comes to my mind. He must be mentioned in some Spanish sources, I guess, at least concerning his time in Mexico, and in some Italian/Latin sources concerning his time in Naples. If so, which sources? How do they spell his name? Which other people did he work with? That kind of information will help readers to find supporting evidence (on the Web or in libraries) so it will make our article much more useful and also much more persuasive. We can also then make links to other people who had some contact with him.

text: :I'm giving you more work to do -- I'm sorry -- but it's in a good cause! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:26, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Reply to IacobusAmor: You are probably right concerning Spanish secrets, for in the whole accessible biography of V. Bune, justly his journey (about 1598-1599 ?) as a Spanish delegate in Mexico was the most blurred and unclear (even more than his former in Pacific); it is only sure in that approximative time he was in Mexico, but unclear if this was for 1 or 3 years, and what was his function there (ambassador only or Spanish vice-roy ?). GeoLatina, 24 Sept. 2007
To Andrew Dalby: Thanks much for your reply; these problems of neglected V. Bune are very complex but also interesting and promissive. As suggested, I added the reference on Yoshamya's monograph in Fontes of V. Bune.
First of all, I am not a professional historian, but more geographer (specialities: Paleogeography & Biogeography); V. Bune was my marginal interest and I cannot be quite authoritative concerning true historical methods. My knowledge on V. Bune was founded chiefly on that monograph, and I estimated it may be useful to include this in Vicipaedia, at least as a stimulus for subsequent completing. It is a pity that the best Bune's connoisseur M. Yoshamya is recently dead (his monograph was a posthume edition). Some other modest activities to ameliorate insights on V. Bune are now in course, but from them successively emerge also quite new unexpectable and interesting problems on different other fields. I list here the available informations on them (and then other needed activities):
* At Zagreb university in Croatia, a young student now proposed to do a completed biography of V. Bune as his doctoral dissertation; but I appreciate it would be not very promissive, for it may include chiefly a critical re-interpretation of yet known local data in Dubrovnik archives only, but not in other foreign sources out of Croatia (Madrid, Napoli, Indian Goa, etc.).
* A Croatian missionary now at Catholic eparchy in Solomon Islands (with a considerable insight in history, Latin and English) some years ago besides his official charge, included also his requests of now persisting traces of V. Bune's trips, especially in Salomas and also elsewhere in SW Pacific. So far, he had a partial success in two main ways: detecting the probable Bune's descendants with the same surname (one of them was an important politician there). Then he also identified in Salomas nearly thirty typical Dalmatian toponyms given by V. Bune, now well known to local aborigines as older names, and 18 of them are still now in official use there (the simpler Dalmatian names were more familiar to aborigines, than the Spanish or English ones too complicate for them).
* Before WorldWar 2, German geographers as an opposition to "hostile" English and French toponymy in West Pacific and Melanesia, in their maps reintroduced the older V. Bune's toponymy noted by them before World War 1, when Germany had his old colonial possessions also in some Pacific areas. These V. Bune's toponyms in West Pacific (nostalgic for Germans), are abundant (about fifty ones) in the detailed maps of Andree's Handatlas on its successive reprints in 1930-ies and 1940-ies. Therefore a detailed database on V. Bune's old toponymy may exist somewhere in Germany before WW2, but so far I was not able to retrieve them.
* Concerning the archival data on V. Bune in Dubrovnik, I know there chiefly his proper political and commercial documents (from Dubrovnik, Napoli and Goa) subscribed by his hand. There is probably no published any accessible geographic map made by him, nor any known his official document from Spain nor from Mexico, although during half of his life he worked and travelled for Spain. However, his private letters and the data on commercial goods transported by his ships from overseas suggest he must be during 16th century at least in Mexico, India, Philippines, and probably also elsewhere as noted.
* The needed and promissive further insights on V. Bune may include chiefly the hardly accessible Spanish archives, then also the archive of Catholic eparchy Sao Braz at Goa in India where was the main Dalmatian emporium of Dubrovnik for Far East trade, and from there started also the main Bune's expeditions in southern Asia and western Pacific; (less promissive may be the possible archival documents on V. Bune in Manila and Mexico if existing there at all).
* In all old documents including V. Bune, known in any language, his simple surname persisted unchanged literally as "Bune", but his name varied as Vice, Vicente, Vincent, Vincentius ...etc. Other names from his collaboration links are unclear and mostly few known (because Spain, and also his ally Dubrovnik such important links held often sub embargo ?).
* Concerning the Far East toponymy from V. Bune's time, we know almost only his bare listed names and their approximative locations after sequence in related region, but their locations are often detectable from former German maps, and from actual unofficial aborigine toponyms descending from them. In the accessible documents are nearly any other details on their nature, inhabitants, nor local languages (if existing, such details are not in Dubrovnik but perhaps in hardly accessible Spanish archives). 
* However, 3 other complementary indications confirm the persistence of Bune's toponymy in W. Pacific: their rediscovery by a Croatian missionary in Saloma's aborigines, and their abundant inscription in German atlases and maps of W Pacific in first half of 20th century, and also the persistence of such complementary names for SE Asia and W Pacific,  succesively used by the trading navigators from Adriatic islands in their Far East sailigs from 17th-19th century. 
* These names of V. Bune and subsequent Dalmatian navigators were partly known to Adriatic island elders up to 1990ies, being completely divergent from any international ones: e.g. Sion-Kulap (= Pacific), Skopye-Kulapne (Philippines), Sadritye-Polnebne (Melanesia), Sadritye-Zihodne (Micronesia), Skopye-Zihodne (Japan islands), Artazihod (Korea), Velapolneb (New Zealand) ...etc. (bold = accentuated syllable in Dalmatian dialect).  GeoLatina, 24 Septembris 2007

text: :OK. Thanks, GeoLatina.
#The unnamed student's doctoral dissertation will have to include sources other than Croatian where they exist, otherwise a reputable university will not accept it. Once the dissertation has been finished and accepted, we could cite it. Any articles by this same unnamed student could also be cited.
#If the unnamed missionary has published anything, we could cite it. If not, we can't; it's "original research", which Vicipaedia doesn't accept.
#If the German geographers published anything mentioning Bune, we could cite that.
#If Yoshamya quotes any documents, with precise references and citations, we could cite extracts. We have no objection to quoting in Croatian (or German, or Italian, or Spanish) with a Latin translation. (You said "the late ... Yoshamya": do you mean he's dead?)
#If any documents in any language name Bune, we could cite them: we need the real name they give and the precise source of the document.
#Anything that earlier printed books/papers (such as the three in the article) say about Bune could be quoted and footnoted.
#You give his date of death: please quote a precise source for that.

text: :We will have to cut out of the article whatever cannot be documented. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:17, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Re: "So far, he had a partial success in two main ways: detecting the probable Bune's descendants with the same surname (one of them was an important politician there)."—If this refers to the Fijian politician Poseci Waqalevu Bune, we can rule out any connection with Vice Bune on three grounds: (1) according to the story we've been provided, Bune did not claim to have reached Fiji, and Fiji is a long way from southern Vanuatu; (2) Fijian Bune is pronounced /mbune/ and may be a reflex of Proto-Oceanic for 'fruit dove, Ptilinopus spp.' or some other indigenous word (sorry: no Fijian dictionary at hand, but the point is that indigenous names in the Pacific usually refer to things in the real world); (3) surnames didn't come into general use in the Pacific islands until the twentieth century, and in many places remain a foreign concept, useful only in dealing with governments & outsiders. If the Roman Catholic Croatian priest is alive, maybe he has email and can offer his evidence directly. IacobusAmor 12:48, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Re: Croatian priest in Salomas; he contacted me by phone when he visited Europe two years ago, and all I know about was from this conversation only. He is now alive in 40ies, and so far he published almost nothing on V. Bune; if he would find something exactly documented, he promised to be published because he intend to stay in Salomas for some next years. GeoLatina, 26 Septembris 2007
Thanks on message, Andrew Dalby; in my last reply I indicated preliminarily the last activities about V. Bune for your information, not exact data:
* 1. Re: D.Sc. Thesis on V. Bune in Zagreb: this was a new provisional title of this Thesis registered, but not yet officially accepted. Its possible completion may be expectable perhaps in 2009; its author was new in matter and till now published nothing on V. Bune.
* 2. Re: Croatian priest in Salomas: he contacted me twice by phone, and so far he published nothing on V. Bune. The unique related matter I received by post from them was a photo of modest quality, presenting a related monument in form of the stone crucifix erected in the former site of old Dalmatian emporium in Salomas. 
* 3. Re: German data: I added now in V. Bune's Fontes the last related German reference known to me, i.e. Andrees Handatlas VIII/5, 1930.
* 4. Re: M. Yoshamya: he was a retired professor of history & geography in Classical College (Zagreb); he was dead some years ago, and his new book appeared as a later posthume edition. This monograph was not restricted to W. Bune only; among others it included also some subsequent overseas navigators from Dalmatia being less important for they added only geographic details in yet known areas. On the other hand, he indicated from the Adriatic also a probable earlier overseas navigator (Harvatye Mariakyr) as a precursor before V. Bune, but this one had been too scarcely documented (in medieval Glagolitic script) without precise datation and more half-legendary, as e.g. Vikings in their Sagas (of course - until better data it's not ripen to include in Wikipedia).
* 5. & 6. Re: Additional references and citata: In actual moment I have not justly at hand something essentially new or supplementary that was not in article, but it is expectable in a short time and I will inform you immediately to add that.
* 7. Re: V. Bune's death date: it was evidently documented e.g. by this date inscribed on his tomb table in Lopud island church, and also by his official death notice in Dubrovnik archive, etc.
* 8. Additional remarks: After former Yoshamya's suggestions, I tried to identify the next problems: why any documents on V. Bune in Spanish archives recently are nearly unaccessible, why they formerly appeared in Middle Europe (Germany etc.), but recently disappeared from public knowledge? The reconstituted plausible scenario what's happened is following: 
* At the end of 19th century, some pedantic German geographers and map-makers had almost complete insight in the Spanish documentation on V. Bune (they transcribed or loaded them).
* In the first half of 20th century, they published in Germany, Austria and elsewhere in Mid Europe their precise maps of Oceania, West Pacific and Melanesia including also the older Bune's toponyms in parentheses, e.g. in some reprints of Andrees Handatlas and elsewhere. 
* Before World War 2, the new nazis misused V. Bune's toponymy intending to eliminate the Anglo-French toponyms from W Pacific and Oceania.
* After the German disaster in WW2, V. Bune and his old toponymy became the innocent political victims of recent imperial confrontations; thus from 1946 any related documentation on V. Bune fell under embargo in last 60 years up today. This persisted then rather known e.g. in former Yugoslavia, Soviet block, India etc., but in recent English and French geography and world history, V. Bune and his toponyms became unwelcome and then arbitrarily erased from any public knowledge. Therefore, IacobusAmor was partly in right: this artificial blurring against V. Bune was really a public hoax.
* Thus, one may imagine also another inversed situation in an alternative world (where Germany and Japan would be victors after WW2). In that hypothetical case, Bune's old toponymy would be well known and worldwide recognized, but actual Anglo-French toponymy in Oceania, Melanesia and elsewhere would be blurred sub embargo (as is now Bune's one), and we would abundantly argument by the citata and references that it existed at all! Best wishes, GeoLatina, 26 Septembris 2007

text: Yes, one may imagine. But you really think people restoring peace to Melanesia in 1945 had heard of Bune and decided to suppress his place-names because they were Croatian -- and, on top of that, never recorded the fact? The whole world of scholarship, from "Soviet block" via India to USA, all colluding to suppress all knowledge of one long-dead Croatian, and no one ever saying so? You're fantasising, GeoLatina.

text: Fantasy is useless to us here, I'm afraid. Until there are documents and publications supporting the things you want to write, you can't write them on Vicipaedia. That's the rule. You don't start here. Publish, with a serious and reliable publisher. Cite the documents. Until then, we can name him; we can mention his birth date; and if you can find his name on any page in that Atlas we'll refer to it. When you've published, come back and rewrite the Vicipaedia article!
replies: text: :[Added a moment later:] Incidentally, are you able to write an article about Yoshamya for us? He sounds like an interesting man, even if "possibly" a fantasist! Do you know about him personally? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:28, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

text: As promised, I completed recently in Bune's Fontes two preexisting references and added several supplementary ones (followed by the Latin translation of titles). In the next weeks or months, I intend to add other ones when accesible to me, and to add other completing data in text if essential for Bune's knowledge. Now some comments to your precedent reply:
* Bune's birth: One cannot exhaust from me nor from Yoshamya's book any exact birth date of V. Bune, simply because it was nowhere explicitly documented. All related sources and articles mention his birth year 1559 only; his birth notice is lacking and exact date is lost forewer. This date was the most expectable from Dubrovnik archive where he was native, but there is not precised; it is hardly expectable in foreign archives (Spain, Naples etc.).
* New publishing: Your suggestion to publish new original reliable articles on V. Bune now is hardly realisable, because in actual moment until new detected data I cannot add anything new that was not yet widely published in Yoshamya's monograph; in principle I have not intention to plagiarize them. 
* Bune's nationality: Bune's time was surely not as the modern one; before some centuries the concept of a Croatian (or Slavic) appertaining in Bune's native area was rather vague. From the available sources he was personally a local patriot and citizen working for his Ragusa Principality, and for this purpose he spent also a part of his private money. From the indication on his personal origin and of his cognates (and also from his surname), he was the most probably a descendant of ancient local aborigines of Illyrian or Roman origin, then partly slavicized to his time (Note: recent biogenetic analyses in his native area offer the similar data i.e. above a half of local population there are not original Slavs, but 2/3 ancient aborigines now culturally slavicized).
* Bune's "Croatian" toponyms: His toponymy in overseas from lingual aspect was not true Slavic or Croatian in modern sense, but better old Dalmatian. Some centuries ago in Bune's time, Adriatic islanders and his seamen in expedition surely spoke not the modern Croatian but a rather divergent and hybrid, semi-Romance & semi-Slavic archidiom that was the main early substratum of actual Chakavian dialect in most Adriatic islands.
* Blurring of Bune's data: I am not a native English speaker, I cannot express me exactly, and so you probably missunderstand my precedent message on Bune's embargo. It was surely not at all for his "Croat" origin because he expressed nowhere to be a Croat nor Italian (but a Ragusan only); his Croatian attribution is from recent modern authors. After my insights, nobody linked these toponyms with Croatia and recent Bune's blurring may be chiefly for his recent linking with German nazist toponymy at WW2 in that area. 
* Fate of his toponyms: After the informations available to me, a dozen of his old Dalmatian toponyms in NW New Guinea are now completely erased by the new Indonesian nomenclature, but they partly persisted till now for other minor sites in NE Papuan coast. In Salomas their fate was more complex: since WW2 they were mostly replaced by English ones, then after the declaring of independent Solomon islands they were re-introduced, and now with the civil war and arrival of UN forces they anew partly dropped. 
* Russians on V. Bune: Your suggestion that also in "Soviet block" Bune was recently neglected is simply wrong (see anew my precedent message). Justly inverse, Russians and other eastern Slavs in printed texts iteratively mention V. Bune up to recently, perhaps due to a "Slavic (or communist) solidarity". But my problem was that I am less familiar with Russian, their Cyrillic writing is also hard to me, and some texts from there were unaccessible and I know them by title only. Therefore, I was not sure how serious or how documented were their texts including V. Bune, and I hesitated to quote them in references.
* Article on Yoshamya: Your suggestion to write a new Latin article on Yoshamya in principle would be realisable, probably to the end of 2007. Now I have not all needed data at hand for a well-documented text, and also I have other major and urgent obligations. So far one published on him a few occasional orbituaries there in local newspapers only, and that would be his first serious international biography. However, this one would be less problematic than e.g. for the remote V. Bune with his old deficient or inaccessible data. 
* I knew Yoshamya chiefly from his last years as retired professor, almost via phone and in rare occasions to meet him personally. My impression was that he was mostly not a "phantasist" but a realistic scholar very passionate in compilating all available data related to a certain topic that interested him. In his youth as faculty graduate, for a decade during WW1 and subsequent years he became an Asian adventurer riding (as cowboy) and working on archaelogy and ethnography at Baikal Lake, in Mongolia, in Caucasus etc.; then he advanced to a rigorous College professor teaching and writing on the protohistory, ethnogenesis and correlations of some Asian and Balkanic ethnical groups. GeoLatina, 26 Septembris 2007

text: I'm glad I asked. Fascinating. When you have time, please tell us more. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:27, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :List of publications:  Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 23:28, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vivebat?

message: Several of the new fontes are links to other wikis, or to sites that have copied wikis, and the basis of the information on Bune usually boils down to what one says bluntly: "This early expedition is documented in old Dubrovnik archives." The problem with this level of proof is that it has the same value as Richard Nixon's "secret plan to end the war in Vietnam" in 1968: it may be true, and it may be false, but we have no way of telling which it is. We've so far seen no proof that the first Europeans to sight Vanuatu were not, as history books tell us, in the expedition led by Quiros in 1606. IacobusAmor 00:01, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to support Iacobus on this, GeoLatina. Any unsupported claims will be deleted, and much of your work will be wasted, unless you identify the documents precisely and specify precisely what they say. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:19, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
IacobusAmor would be partly in right within perfect (but he is not so in the present), that some listed Fontes were mutual links or partial copies, but you ignored the related prototype. Let us a rewiev: 
* Two years ago, in the main en.wikipedia on its link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.php-title=Vice_Bune), afer my knowledge existed the first original text about V. Bune on the internet. 
* The majority (but not all) of subsequent texts related to V. Bune in different wikis and elsewhere on internet mostly appeared as partial copies or elaborations from this prototype.
* Instead of ameliorating or elaborating this text, one year ago an insolent group of wiki-erasers and professional obtuders decided that V. Bune was unexisting person, and completely erased Bune's article from en.wikipedia.
* O.K. Since that disparition of prototype, many correlated copies and elaborations automatically became the independent originals (although someones included up today the above blind link).
* The lacking (absent) information is undoubtely the worst one, and such arbitrary elimination and blurring of real topics will not improve our knowledge.
* The "wikipedized" Google can list only a minor number of links to V. Bune on the internet, for it is partly restricted to main world languages, almost in Roman alphabet.
* The most efficaceous one, concerning V. Bune so far was Altavista presenting nearly all 155 links available on the internet in any language or alphabet, including also several recently erased ones as is the above one of en.wikipedia.
* If you or Andrew Dalby, or others in Latin Vicipaedia are in principle against any article on V. Bune, if you prefer, you can also erase & eliminate them as was yet in en.wikipedia. 
* In principle, I am not interested at all in politicians (R. Nixon nor others). There persist on internet a considerable number of other minor but realistic wikis and alternating net-encyclopedias where the useful articles are not changeable at all, and others where included articles may be only ameliorated or elaborated but noway erased. Sincerely, GeoLatina, 27 Septembris 2007

text: The only principle involved is that whatever is stated as a fact on Vicipaedia should be verifiable. This leads to the rule that wherever there is serious doubt, published sources have to be cited.

text: I am not talking about deleting the whole article. What en:wiki decided is not specially relevant to us here. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:14, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :Care GeoLatina: Quid est sepulchri inscriptionis fons? Quo in libro inscriptionem invenimus? IacobusAmor 14:21, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
-To A.Dalby, I.Amor et al.- erasors & persecutors on V. Bune (& on G. Menzies ...etc.):
* 1. You evidently ignore what means a true 'theory' (it is result of wiki-antielitism): this on Bune's sailing may be only named a thesis or hypothesis .
* 2. You can find even more abundant details on such Dalmatian overseas naming, elaborated in dozen comparable articles of other independent wikis, e.g. in Russian Wikislavia (wikislavia.volgota.com), in Croatian Wikislavia (hr.volgota.com) - and the most detailed and exhaustive in the new Adriatic-Chakavian wiki-encyclopaedia being accessible on the net shortly after New year 2008. 
* 3. V. Bune is evident and clear to other independent scientists out of westernized Wikipedia; but you are true 'wikipedists' and also Westerners, and so ideologically cannot accept at all that an 'obscure Dalmatian Slav' may be prior to the glorious and powerful Western colonialists: this is the essential problem, for you rigidly believe that only victors must write history and create public opinion.

text: :Haec ampullae sunt inscitae: velimus scire res veras; sed amice, videtur te res cogitatione fictas offerre. IacobusAmor 16:10, 29 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
* 4. For the same dogmat reasons, some other independent and objective wikis e.g. giant Chinese Baidu-Baike, also big Russian Wikislavia, Pan-European Metapedia, and Wikipilipinas, all ones abandoned out of such Wikipedia - and now together they have yet nearly 3,000,000 articles (including abundantly & iteratively V. Bune)! 
* 5. For future public insights on your revisionist 'history', these dishonest manipulations with V. Bune accross Wikipedias, all are copied and reproduced in above non-wikipedist 4 eastern encyclopedias for next readers! --Former user:GeoLatina, December 30, 2007

text: :Not at all! This is no "western" push on your (and others') theory, it is just the pure fact that we need sources before making a substantial claim. Sadly, a wiki does not count as a source (for obvious reasons) so a book, reliable website (see w:en:WP:V, look at the page (or even just the nutshell) and you'll see why these sources are necessary) or a press release would all do. Harrissimo 10:05, 29 Decembris 2007 (UTC).

text: :And of course, if one of the other independent scientists chooses to make a reliable publication (or has already made one), please go ahead and cite it. Harrissimo 10:11, 29 Decembris 2007 (UTC).
replies: text: ::Nice to see you back, GeoLatina. I'm sorry you don't like the editing of the Bune material; as Harrissimo says, only a reliable publication of the Bune claims would change things, because Vicipaedia has to depend on reliable sources.

text: ::If you can add biographical material on Mitjeel Yoshamya, or if you can write an article on his son, that would be extemely useful. On M. Yoshamya, I have at present said that he "claimed" to be a native speaker of the Dalmatian language. I said this because all other sources assert that the last speaker died a century ago. If a knowledgeable contributor, such as yourself, quoted some of the things he wrote in that language, or gave details and examples of the poetry he collected, this could turn the claim into fact. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:34, 29 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Please let me join this chorus. Vicipaedia, like any useful encyclopedia, is a tertiary production: it welcomes texts based on reliable secondary sources (such as doctoral dissertations, peer-reviewed articles, and books published by reputable presses), and it even welcomes primary sources (such as original photographs and verbatim copies of inscriptions and other historical documents), but it does not welcome texts supported by no proof other than what is offered as opinion by people and internet sites, including wikis. IacobusAmor 17:16, 29 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
GeoLatina: I hesitated to touch this swarm about V. Bune + M. Yoshamya for I really expected considerable complications from your dogmatic collision with his family - and now you have their reaction in Discussion on Mitjeel Yoshamya. Thus I transfered a relevant reply to other specialists, and now you may consult the latest detailed scientific elaboration of V. Bune's and many related problems from some symposia in the next fresh publication of a group of scientists: 
* M. Rac, M.H. Mileković et al.: V.B. Petrov and other Croat navigators in medieval oceans. Proc. 3 scient. symposia 'Early Croats' (2001-2006), 820 p., ITG - Zagreb 2007.

text: ::I have added this to the bibliography at the page currently called Pseudohistoria Vincentii Bunei -- but I cannot confirm the existence of this conference publication, or of the article, from Web sources. Any help with confirming the original title would be useful. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:01, 14 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)   
The main essential digests from this on the net are available (or shortly will be so) in the next sites: 
* Croatian Wikislavia (WikiCro) in Croat & English: hr.volgota.com & (with more details) also in:
* Adriatic-Chakavian Wiki (WikiCha) in different languages: chak.volgota.com .

text: ::References to the actual pages would be useful. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:01, 14 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

text: Concerning requested biographies, after the recent reaction of family on M. Yoshamya's page, I concluded that it would be inutile, because both your presentations of V. Bune & of M. Yoshamya are deformed in their monstruous caricatures, both with very deviating or inversed data. I have at hand more useful and intelligent jobs than spent my time and energy on such inutile wikipedian texts to be immedialely massacred and totally inversed.  
Concerning your so-called 'Dalmatian' language (a secondary derivate from Latin), you are there completely missdirected (or informed by ignorants in matter), for justly the last Dalmatian speaker T.U. Burbur was killed by a mine in quarry of Veglia (now Krk) 1898. - But Yoshamya's documents and publications are related to a quite divergent regional archidiom of non-Romance i.e. Palaeo-Balcanic (pre-Slavic) group including his Liburnian language that is intermediate between the old Illyrian & Thracian languages of Balkans, and the old Italic languages (as Venetic, Umbrian etc.). While medieval urban speakers of romance Dalmatian were mostly in coastal and insular towns of east Adriatic and allways written in Latin alphabet, - other Balkanic dialects persisted mostly as rural relicts in a mosaic with Slavic immigrants, and they were recently more or less slavicized and mostly written in another Glagolitic alphabet up to 18th century. Thus folk texts and poetry collected by the late Yoshamya (and his few successors) are in this half-slavicized Neo-Liburnic, and in a short time you can find a lot of them in the new web-site of Adriatic-Chakavian Wiki (WikiCha): chak.volgota.com - I copied here by GNU, from the international Eurasian project 'Mithridates Universalis' (of many nostratic languages) its standard comparative example of semislavic-Liburnian Paternoster in Roman transcription (bold = stress site): 
* Ela-tyache kyesh vaneh nebah, senay elamy urudba tvoya, nay ariva una carmada tvoya tar naybi utemba tvoya koti va nebah osce vaneh tlah. Sey noas pohlyb seydni naydas nami danaske tarnay laškas nami une darzi noase koti mye laškamo darznikon nasin, osce nayne peyas noas vane uocanni, lehnay bukšas noas ud seyh hudobih. Vasye vikoy-vykov, Amen.

text: --GeoLatina, II Januarii MMVIII
replies: text: :I am adding this material to Lingua Neoliburnica. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:01, 14 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fontes