განხილვა:მეჰდიზადე

message: First of all, I would like to see a Georgian reference that credits Abbas Sahhat as simply Mehdizadeh. I doubt it very much: Google only generates Wiki-related results and mirror-sites when searched for "მეჰდიზადე". I would like to know, why your source was not included in the article in the first place, if it really exists.
Second of all, even if there is such a reference, it has little value compared to Azerbaijani sources where the name is shown only as Abbas Sahhat (, , , ). This particular article pertains to Azerbaijan, not to Georgia, and therefore should first and foremost reflect the Azerbaijani spelling of the name. There is no need to provide a Georgian-language source to prove anything, because this person is not notable to Georgian culture, and the chance of running into his name in the available sources is almost equal to zero.
I would also appreciate it if users replied to this discussion in either English, or Russian, or Azeri, if possible. Parishan 21:45, 10 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ყველა ენაში ენციკლოპედიები იქმნება სალიტერატურო ენის ნორმების მიხედვით. ქართული  სალიტერატურო ენის ნორმების მიხედვით, რითაც შექმნილია ქსე წერია მეჰდიზადე - ქსე, ტ. 6, გვ. 665, თბ. 1983 Большая Советская энциклопедия-ში კი  Аббас Сиххат - ტ.1, გვ. 14, მ., 1970.  ცანგალა (გ) 00:19, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::ისე თუ მართლა ვაჟა-ფშაველა/რაზიკაშვილის ტიპის სიტუაციაა როგორც ეს ბატონი ქვემოთ ბრძანებს, მართლა ხომ არ გადაგვერქმია სტატიის სახელი. არ ვიცი რატომაა ასეთი მნიშვნელოვანი ეს საკითხი, მაგრამ კოლეგა აშკარად ძალიან განცდებშია. :) --Kober 19:55, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::მართლა განიცდის, არადა თქვენთვის მინიმალური მნიშვნელობის პიროვნება არისო, თავად იძახის. დავიჯერო რომელიმე ჩვენგანს ძალიან ააღელვებს აზერბაიჯანულად ვაჟა-ფშაველას რომ რაზიკაშვილი დაარქვან? ა.

text: :Parishan: your point is taken. We do have similar issues in many other articles, but In general, the priority is given to a credible source in Georgian. If there is no such source, then we use the norms established by the State Committee on transliterating foreign names and words. In this case, however, a credible Georgian source does exist. It is a Georgian Soviet Encyclopedia (see the citation above). Many of us often question the credibility of this source, mostly because it seems outdated, but we, Wikipedia editors, do not have the authority to overrule an established norm, until another, more current source is found. Hope you understand. Thank you. - ალ-ო     @ 01:42, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Where is the Georgian source? I don't see it. I see a comment in Georgian, which I don't understand, as I made clear earlier, and a citation of the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia.

text: ::It is pointless to wait until a Georgian-language source is published mentioning this person's name, because that is highly unlikely to happen. This person is only notable in Azerbaijan, I am sure very few Georgians know of him. In this case, Azerbaijani and English sources prevail. You cannot treat Georgian-language sources as superior to all others just because this Wikipedia is in Georgian. Especially if you lack any substancial sources in Georgian in the first place, and have numerous sources in the original language. What if I want to translate this article into Georgian? This person is not mentioned in any Georgian source, so are you going to just delete the article, or what? Do you see what I mean?

text: ::I would not care if it were a spelling issue, because I am not very familiar with Georgian spelling conventions. But this is not the matter of spelling — it is the matter of showing the appropriate name in the heading. Even the article introduction mentions him as აბას საჰათ მეჰდიზადე. Mehdizadeh is just a surname; it is the same thing as renaming the Vazha-Pshavela article to Razikashvili. This is not a disputed scientific issue, this is an issue of LOGIC. Parishan 19:50, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Parishan, let me clarify the issue. 1. Is Abbas Sahhat the name by which this person is best known? 2. Is Mehdizadeh just a surname or an alternative name/pseudonym of the poet? --Kober 20:04, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Exactly my point. He is known as Abbas Sahhat, despite his real name being Abbas Mehdizadeh (Mehdizadeh is the surname), just like Vladimir Ulyanov was known as Vladimir Lenin. Parishan 21:52, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)

text: The citation is now in bold. I explained above where it is from. I also explained what we generally do when we do not have a Georgian source. This should be sufficient. - ალ-ო     @ 22:02, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :Yes, I understood that. But I pointed out that what you generally do is not applicable here because in this particular case, your method lacks logic. You cannot "rename" a poet just because your one source happened to indicate his name contrary to the accepted norm. Parishan 23:04, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)

text: Let's avoid questioning anyone's logic, it's counterproductive. GSE is our accepted norm, therefore, we did not "rename" it, but simply accepted the norm, no matter how arguable it may seem. You have to understand, to accept GSE as a norm for the time being was a very painful agreement to reach for many users here, because there are multiple issues like this one. We have several users, thankfully, who work or have contacts with the State Commeettee. We flag such issues for them so that in the next printed edition of the "norms" these issues are somehow addressed. Until then we leave these as they are, and mention in the body of the article most alternative naming conventions, etc. - ალ-ო     @ 23:34, 11 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :If so many people find GSE's data controversial, does that not already indicate that you need to expand your spectrum of reliable academic sources? Parishan 00:38, 12 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ::No. - ალ-ო     @ 04:28, 12 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Whatever, I give up... Do as you wish... Parishan 04:40, 12 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)

text: ::: I dont understand this stubbornness of the Georgian users. I reviewed sources and references provided by the user Parishan and actually consider them more suitable and valid than outdated Soviet Encyclopedia. Frankly. Why are we insisting on something which contradicts primary Azeri sources and is based on dubious source which might not be accurate ? The comparison with Psavela/Razikashvili is also accurate. Imagine that on Azeri Wiki, we would have Razikashvili instead of Pshavela? Are we being constructive and respectful for other sources? Iberieli 22:48, 12 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
ინგლ. არ ვიცი, მაგრამ ერთი კი მესმის, რომ მომხმარებლებს სურს თავისი აზრი მოგვახიოს. არ შეიძლება ქართული ვიკიპედია შეიქმნას ქართული სალიტერატურო ენის ნორმების მიხედვით?  ჩვენი ნორმებით და არა სხვისი ნორმებით. რა ძველიც არ უნდა იყოს ქართული სალიტერატურო ენის ნორმები, ის ამჟამად მოქმედია საქართველოში და ვიკიპედია  ამ ნორმების  შეცვლის ადგილი არ არის. მადლობა --ცანგალა (გ) 23:39, 12 ოქტომბერი 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: References