Discussion:Comic

message: Why the word "historietta"? Isn't that only found in Spanish? I'd consider English-derived "comics" as a better choice. (Main word in English, German, Russian, acceptable synonym in Spanish.) Granted, it could be confusing that the word has a narrowed sense of "American Comics" in Portuguese and French, but the current choice looks as a word only found in Spanish. At least the alternative "Banda designate" (or whatever it is) have cognates found in two languages, French and Portuguese. 81.232.109.175 19:19, 10 decembre 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, "banda designate" seems to be the preferred word of choice (although it only has cognates in two core languages), with some examples found on www.interlingua.com etc. 81.232.109.175 02:08, 12 decembre 2007 (UTC)

text: Io, tambe, vole saper si le nomine "historietta" esse le plus accurate.  Io vole meliorar iste articulo al stato del articulo eminente, ma non si in le futuro io habera a cambiar le parola "historietta" a "comica" 200 veces...  Forsan "historia illustrate" o "historia graphic," proque le comicas que io lege e sape ben ni esse semper 'comic', ni esse semper un 'historia pauc'. Almafeta 02:55, 1 februario 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :Sorry for writing in English. I've studied enough of romance languages to understand you, though. Yeah, the connotations are a minor problem, but it shouldn't cause any ambiguities. I wonder what's the source for "historietta", though, it seems to be based simply on Spanish, and I've only found it in IA wordlists with the meaning "anecdote". (Same person as former IP.) 80.216.22.0 14:24, 6 februario 2009 (UTC)

text: Io ha viste cognatos pro "comicas" in italiano e espaniol tamben.  Proque il pare como le termino principe in tres del linguas de fonte (Ang. Ger. Rus.), e como synonymos in al minus duo del linguas romantic de fonte (Esp. Ita.), io crede que le parola que nos vole usar esse "comica."  Almafeta 17:33, 20 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :I mentioned Spanish, above, and yeah, needless to say, I follow the same reasoning; comica/comic or similar. It'd be good to have some official source for the word, though. 83.227.59.209 18:41, 20 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::I now have my own user name. Wakuran 18:46, 20 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Even if we decide to go for comic(a)s or something, there remains the problem of translating all professional terminology. "Speech balloon", "panel", "bleed" etc. Not an easy task, for panel, English and German has panel, Spanish has viñeta, Italian vignetta, French has case, Russian has kadra or something (probably from Latin quadra). Much discussion required. Wakuran 00:57, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)

text: "Banda designate" es usate solmente en portugese de Portugala e non hic in Brasil. Hic usa se le expression "Hirtoria in quadriculo" o simplemente "HQ" in le scholas. Sed, le administratores de wikipedia portugese decideva usar le parole "Banda designate" per ampliar le scopo del usage inter le paises. Nos non usa "comics" o altere designation pro "historietta" hic, sed io crede que essera melior cognoscer le historia etymologic del parola questionate. =) Manoel FernándezMsg 01:20, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :How do you mean, know about the etymologic history? Wakuran 01:33, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Le etymologia o origine de le parola. Il es un possibilitate pro saper que parola essera melior e quante linguas la usa plus in iste question. Sed io concorda con te que on necessitara de multe discussiones pro vider que parola es melior in iste caso. Manoel FernándezMsg 01:55, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Aha, okay. I think I get you, now. For "comic" itself, the etymology is from late 19th century US, since the medium did originally pretty much consist merely of amusing entertainment, but we'd probably need more discussions for less clear-cut cases... Wakuran 02:23, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Historietta" 

message: English                                                         	Spanish                                                                                 	Portuguese                                   	French                           	Italian                           	German                           	Russian                                                	Interlingua<BR>(proposals)
Comic(s)                                                        	historieta<BR>cómic<BR>tira cómica<BR>tebeo_solo in ES*<BR>banda debujada	banda desenhada<BR>historia em quadrinho	bandes dessinés             	fumetti                           	Comic                            	komiks                                                 	comics? comica?<BR>comic?<BR>banda designate?
Comic(s) author<BR>Comic(s) writer<BR>Comic(s) artist           	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	autor de ...?scriptor de ...?<BR>scenarista de ...?<BR>designator de ...?
Penciler                                                        	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	schizzator?
Inking                                                          	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	tintate?
Inker                                                           	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	tintator?
Plot                                                            	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	scenariointriga
Speech balloon<BR>word bubble                                   	globo<BR>(Lit. balloon)<BR>bocadilloballoon(?)                                          	balão                                        	phylactere<BR>bulle<BR>balloon(?)	fumetto<BR>nuvoletta<BR>balloon(?)	Sprechblase<BR>lit. speech-bubble	?                                                      	ballo(o)n (de parola/dialogo)(?)<BR>bulla (de parola/dialogo)(?)<BR>Apparently the IA word for balloon generally is ballon (one o), but in comics terminology the English word balloon (two o's) is borrowed.)
Thought balloon                                                 	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	ballon (de pensar/pensamento)(?)<BR>bulla (de pensar/pensamento)(?)
Scream balloon                                                  	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	ballon (de critar/crito)(?)<BR>bulla (de critar/crito)(?)
(Balloon) tail                                                  	?                                                                                       	apêndice?                                    	indice<BR>appendice?             	appendice?                        	Hinweislinie<BR>Dorn?            	?                                                      	appendix (de balloon)(?)
Panel                                                           	viñeta                                                                                  	quadro<BR>quadrinho<BR>vinheta               	case<BR>vignette                 	vignetta                          	Panel                            	kadra                                                  	vignette(?)<BR>vignetta(?)<BR>"Vignette" existing word in IA already
(Panel) Frame                                                   	?                                                                                       	quadroquadrinholinha demarcatória(?)         	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	quadro(?)
Splash page/panel                                               	?                                                                                       	(?)                                          	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	Splash page(?)<BR>Pagina (vignetta) splash
Strip / Tier                                                    	Tira                                                                                    	Tira                                         	bande<BR>strip                   	striscia                          	Strip?                           	?                                                      	Strip(?)<BR>Tira(?)
(Full) bleed                                                    	sangre<BR>sangrado                                                                      	sangramento                                  	a fond perdú?<BR>massicoter?     	al vivo?                          	anschnittbeschnitt<BR>randabfall?	Вылеты (Vylety)<BR>lit. (flight) departure, take-off(?)	Vignetta (/Pagina) sin bordo?sangramente?<BR>Difficult printing term, popular for manga and modern comics
Safety                                                          	seguridad(?)                                                                            	segurança(?)                                 	sûreté(?)                        	sicurezza(?)                      	Sicherheit(?)                    	?                                                      	Securitate(?)<BR>Margine(?)<BR>Printing term
Trim                                                            	corte(?)                                                                                	recortar(?)                                  	Coupe(?)                         	Tagliare(?)                       	Beschnitt(?)                     	?                                                      	Sectura(?)<BR>Printing term
Gutter                                                          	?                                                                                       	?                                            	gouttière                        	canaletto<BR>calle                	Gutter                           	?                                                      	Guttiera(?)<BR>Canaletto(?)<BR>Spatio inter vignettes(?)<BR>Guttiera used for "eaves"
Layout                                                          	?                                                                                       	Leiaute<BR>layout                            	Mise-en-page                     	Impaginazione<BR>layout           	layout                           	Лейаут(?)<BR>(Lejaut)                                  	Layout(?)
Infinite canvas                                                 	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	Tela infinite(?)<BR>Canevas infinite(?)<BR>Webcomics theory term
Sound Effect                                                    	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	onomatopeia(?)<BR>I think sound effect is broader than onomatopeia, since it would also denote the graphic styleHowever "onomatopeia" is sufficient
Motion line                                                     	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	Aktionslinie                     	?                                                      	Linea de movimente(?)
Caption                                                         	cartela<BR>cajetín<BR>cartucho                                                          	legenda                                      	récitatif<BR>légende<BR>cartouche	didascalia                        	Insert?<BR>Bildunterschrift?     	?                                                      	Legenda(?)<BR>I believe "legend" in English might be used for older comics,<BR> where the text is written below the main comics<BR>such as the old Flash Gordon, Prince Valiant, Tarzan, Rupert the Bear and (Dutch) Tom Poes<BR>However, "legenda" might suffice for both "legend" and "caption".<BR>Or "Leganda in cassa" for caption,<BR>and "legenda in basso/infra" for legend
Lettering                                                       	rotulación<BR>lettering?                                                                	?                                            	?                                	lettering                         	lettering                        	?                                                      	Lettering(?)
Letterer                                                        	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	letterista                        	Letterer                         	?                                                      	Letterista(?)
Character                                                       	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	personage(?)
Volume<BR>Tome                                                  	Tomo<BR>Volumen                                                                         	?                                            	Tome<BR>Volume                   	Tomo<BR>Volume                    	Band                             	том<BR>(Tom)                                           	Tomo<BR>Volumine
Fumetti<BR>Photo-comics, where the panels have been photographed	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	Photo-historia<BR>Similar to graphic novel, this Interlingua term is also the victim of the mix-up between "romance" and "novella".
Cartoon (single panel)                                          	?                                                                                       	?                                            	?                                	?                                 	?                                	?                                                      	(?)
(*)-tebeo* - (solmente in Espania)
I have created a table to help deciding on the terminology. Some widely borrowed terms, on the other hand, I could find examples of are "webcomics" (or "comic en linea"), "album", "one-shot", "serie limitate"(?) "cross-over" and "graphic novel" (or similar). Wakuran 01:56, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Archive.org, how many times have you not saved me? You come to my salvation once again: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m8107966/terminology.html Wakuran 03:14, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)

text: Page uploaded anew: http://lefevre.pascal.googlepages.com/morethan100comics-relatedwordsin8languag Wakuran 12:40, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)

text: Hmmm, these might be printing terms, but does anyone have a good idea of terms for "bleed", "safety" and "trim": http://www.queeniechan.com/contact/archive/what_do_the_terms_bleed_trim_and_safety_mean_in_terms_of_manga_pages/ securita? secata? The term bleed is found in McCloud's "Understanding Comics", if someone would have a translation. Wakuran 14:26, 21 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :"Safety" seems to be "margem" in Portugues, maybe "margine". Wakuran 23:05, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)

text: :Okay, it appears there both are term used by the general public, and particular terms used by professionals, fans and theoreticians. The latter are more likely to use terms borrowed from English, it seems, such as using "balloon" instead of native terms. I'll add some more links.
===Multilingual===
*http://lefevre.pascal.googlepages.com/morethan100comics-relatedwordsin8languag
*http://www.comicforschung.de/woerterbuch.html (Same page with some business-related words.)
===English===
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_vocabulary
*http://comixtalk.com/node/8374
===Spanish===
*http://www.escritores.cl/libros_gratis/Lomena-Guion_de_comic-curso.pdf
===Portuguese===
*http://www.geocities.com/ail_br/viagemviagensalinguagemdoquadrinho.htm
*http://www.jblog.com.br/quadrinhos.php?itemid=11618
===French===
*http://secondarts.csmv.qc.ca/powerpoint/bd_terminologie.ppt
*http://users.skynet.be/fralica/dispo56/exemples/expl06/expl06.htm
===Italian===
*http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossario_dei_fumetti
*http://www.midisegni.it/scuola/fumetti.shtml
===German===
*http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafische_Erz%C3%A4hlstrategien
===Russian===
*?
Wakuran 01:54, 23 martio 2009 (UTC)

text: Maybe all of these terms won't be needed, but it cannot hurt coming up with proposals, at least I think we should come up with translations for most of these terms: 
en:Comics_vocabulary#Specific_comics_terminology Wakuran 01:27, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :Also, still wonder about the main term, should it be "comic", "comica", "comico" or "comice", and should the main term be in singular or plural (with the singular form used for a particular piece of work, similar to English: "isto es un bon comic".) Wakuran 01:48, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology

message: *http://lefevre.pascal.googlepages.com/morethan100comics-relatedwordsin8languag
*http://www.comicforschung.de/woerterbuch.html (Same page with some business-related words.)
thread_title: Multilingual

message: *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_vocabulary
*http://comixtalk.com/node/8374
thread_title: English

message: *http://www.escritores.cl/libros_gratis/Lomena-Guion_de_comic-curso.pdf
thread_title: Spanish

message: *http://www.geocities.com/ail_br/viagemviagensalinguagemdoquadrinho.htm
*http://www.jblog.com.br/quadrinhos.php?itemid=11618
thread_title: Portuguese

message: *http://secondarts.csmv.qc.ca/powerpoint/bd_terminologie.ppt
*http://users.skynet.be/fralica/dispo56/exemples/expl06/expl06.htm
thread_title: French

message: *http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossario_dei_fumetti
*http://www.midisegni.it/scuola/fumetti.shtml
thread_title: Italian

message: *http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafische_Erz%C3%A4hlstrategien
thread_title: German

message: *?
Wakuran 01:54, 23 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe all of these terms won't be needed, but it cannot hurt coming up with proposals, at least I think we should come up with translations for most of these terms: 
en:Comics_vocabulary#Specific_comics_terminology Wakuran 01:27, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :Also, still wonder about the main term, should it be "comic", "comica", "comico" or "comice", and should the main term be in singular or plural (with the singular form used for a particular piece of work, similar to English: "isto es un bon comic".) Wakuran 01:48, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian

message: In Occitan le nomine es Benda dessenhada, e in Romanian es Banda desenata. In Latin es dou parole Liber nubeculatus. In Esperanto es un combination de duo paroles: BildLiteraturo. Io creo que le term Banda designata es plus bon de comic. Comic es un parola in interlingua que significa amuzante (es un adjectivo). Es preferabile de utilizar un parola non existente, o un combination logic como banda designata que significa un sequence de designos, pro evitar sinonimos. Un banda designata non es comic totevia. Gratias, --Architengi 22:37, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's the problem with the word. It might cause synonyms, and it has unwanted connotations, but the fact remains that it's widespread among the source languages. "Banda designate" is still better than "historietta", though. Rough draft lead example (might need language check):
 Le comic, le banda designate o le art sequential significa un form de media in qual imagenes in sequentia, o (segun 
 alter opinion) imagenes in combination con text es usate pro narrar un historia.

text: I'm against "historietta", though, it has silly connotations, it's unclear to non-hispanophones, and I've only found it on freely editable wikis. Wakuran 22:56, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :I've seen "banda designate" in more official texts, anyway: http://www.interlingua.com/historia/diverse/jaco.htm , and it seems to be used by Mega-Tokyo (which however uses panello rather than vignetta, which seems like a bad choice) Wakuran 23:04, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::To clarify, I am not negative to "banda designate" per se, nor to have synonyms. In Spanish texts, I've seen "cómic", "historieta" and "tebeo" largely used interchangeably and synonymously. The advantages with "comic" is its succinctness and international spread, the disadvantages its connotations, similarities to other words and its use in French/Italian and Portuguese to signify mainly American comics. Wakuran 23:34, 25 martio 2009 (UTC)

text: If we'd go outside the source langs, we could find many examples similar to comic or comics, as well, such as Catalan, Polish, Greek, Indonesian, Hebrew, Basque and (to some extent) Japanese. Wakuran 02:19, 26 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :Or, the word-building rules don't mention anything about going outside the source languages, and since you only seem to pick the Romance words that support your opinion, it seems slightly biased. (I guess you could invent a revised variant of Interlingua where you'd add some more control languages, but it shouldn't be random; maybe languages that are distinct enough not to be dialects of a larger language, and spoken by at least one million speakers, or something: see en:Talk:Interlingua/Archive_2#Official_dictionary.) But according to the word-formation rules, comic/s still seems to be the best choice. Wakuran 03:27, 26 martio 2009 (UTC)
In Spanish there is also used banda debujado 96.49.22.218 05:57, 26 martio 2009 (UTC)

text: Apparently "banda dibujada", but it mostly seems to signify a particular movement in Argentina, not a widespread term for the medium. Otherwise, it's good. If there are words that are direct translations, but not direct cognates, that holds point for me. I.e. if "banda dibujada" would be calqued into Interlingua, it would be "banda designate", anyway. Wakuran 12:15, 26 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :Io trovava "banda dibujada" in espaniol como nomine proprie, per exemplo hic. Del presentation on pote supponer que iste expression non es commun como synonymo de historieta. In vice, le expressiones cómic e tira cómica es commun.
replies: text: ::"Banda Dibujada" es un movimento cultural in Argentina e Chile (con referentias in Mexico), ma le terminologia banda dibujada es utilisate in altere documentes con ningun ligamines al le movimiento cultural:

text: ::[PDF] © Bert - PDF/Adobe Acrobat

text: ::*La banda dibujada para adultos aborda hoy en día todos los géneros. Su representante más célebre es sin duda François Schuiten, Gran Premio 2003 de la Ciudad de Angoulême. (...) www.m100.cl/pdf/PROGRAMA_15DIC_COMIC_OK2.pdf PDF as HTML

text: ::*Se trata de un cómic de larga trayectoria que lleva a sus espaldar record de ventas en plena lucha con otros héroes de la banda dibujada en todo el mundo. ... www.tallerdearqueria.es/taller/arco_cine.htm

text: ::*Evocar el trayecto recorrido por medio de una banda dibujada. Conversar sobre lo observado en la experiencia directa.... www.geocities.com/bibliografias/natur2.htm

text: ::*soy de Entre Ríos, me llamo Andrea Olariaga, dónde puedo ver dibujos de banda dibujada, aca un amigo me hablo de ustedes que hacen cosas o instrucciones ... nadadebepreocuparte.blogspot.com/2007/10/banda-dibujada-y-palabras-de-junior-en.html

text: ::Banda dibujada in qualcun exemplos   ------- 96.49.22.218 03:51, 1 april 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Le ultime exemple pare esser affiliate al movimente. Wakuran 00:26, 4 april 2009 (UTC)

text: :

text: :Comocunque, io pensa que banda designate esserea le forma plus appropriate. Io crede que comic esserea le forma plus international, sed ha le problema del possibile confusion con le adjectivo comic: un comic non es necessarimente comic.

text: :Si il ha consenso, nos poterea cambiar le nomine de iste pagina. --Julian (disc.) 20:15, 31 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::A, si, esseva le movimente super que io parleva. Io credo que "comic" es le sole parole que convene de "le regula de tres (o duo+)", sed excepte isto, "banda designate" es le plus meliore selection, es rationabile clare, e io ha visto precedentes de interlingua.com e Mega-Tokyo. Plus comment(ari)os? Wakuran 20:54, 31 martio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Io crede que banda designate es le plus bon selection. Banda designate es logic. Multe nove parlatores pote comprender le terminologia a prima vista. Le comic es le secundo bon selection, e historieta le tre bon selection. --96.49.22.218 04:05, 1 april 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Io crede ancora que comic(s) esseria le plus bon selection. Io non me occupa de connotationes, e si le forma esseria generalmente in plural, o como feminina "comica", le signification esseria facil de leger de contexto. Io ha frequentemente ascoltate le argumente "comics es non semper amusante", ma quasi nunquam "comic books es non semper libres". Assi, mi argument in curto: comic(s) es le plus bon, banda designate le secundo plus bon, e historietta no bon. E gratias 96... pro le ligamines. Wakuran 09:59, 1 april 2009 (UTC)

text: :::Io crede que ambe "comicas" e "banda designate" esse un forma appoite per le linguas national; ergo, nos habe duo synonymos.  Mi preferentia national esse que usar comica como le nomine del pagina, specialmente proque le fin -ica etiam resimile altere parolas in interlingua pro un profession o typo de arte (athletica, botanica, mathematica, et alteres).  Almafeta 13:34, 1 april 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Le -a in fin es un pauc "neologismo", ma forsan esseria(?) bon pro evitar synonymos. Wakuran 14:15, 1 april 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::Ben que, lo pare come nos es rudemente in consenso. Le une selection es banda designate, o le altere es alcun como comic/a, e necuno pare creder que historieta es tante bon. Solmente alcunes detalios de le exacte forma remane... Wakuran 00:18, 4 april 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::Io cambiava le nomine del pagina a "comic", le forma plus international, e faceva un redirection ab "banda designate". --Julian (disc.) 16:21, 31 maio 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::Ben facete! Io pote provar scriber alicun cosa. Forsan alicun alter pote corriger mi errores. Wakuran 11:38, 6 junio 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Altere linguas latin e inter-linguas 

message: Io voleva crear le articulo in un hora un die, ma gratias al attention phantastic al vocabulario del articulo, io crede que quando nos initia recrear le articulo, nos habera le fundation de un articulo eminente.  Ma prime, io crede que nos requirera fontes eminente pro un articulo eminente.  Io cognosce de tres libros utile:
# Silver Age Sentinels (joco de rol, Guardians of Order):  Un libro canadanese re superheroes -- ma il habe un historia longe re le historia.  Il specializa re comicas in le seculo 20 del SUA, ma lo que il habe esse phantastic.
# Understanding Comics (Scott McCloud): Un libro re le historia de comicas, inclusivo del historia ante del seculo 20, le era del comicas del web (seculo 21), e comicas ultra le statos unite.
# Making Comics (Scott McCloud):  Le secunde libro post del original, iste libro habe information re le themas de comicas, pro le usage de artistas comic.
Io possede Silver Age Sentinels e pote obtener le altere duo del bibliotheca.  Io totevia cerca pro bon libros specialmente re le historia de comicas europee e de Asia (specialmente japonese -- so un mangaphila!) pro appoiar Understanding Comics.  Io etiam esse cercante libros non in anglese, pro que le articulo monstra un puncto de vista plus international.  Almafeta 18:41, 6 april 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Pro libros super manga, io crede isto tre obras es bon: 
# Paul Gravett - Manga: Sixty Years Of Japanese Comics: Probabilemente le plus bon libro pro facilmente trovar information basic.
# Frederick L. Schodt - Manga, manga! The World of Japanese Comics: Bon pro information super le 70's e 80's. Un pauc datete.
# Thierry Groensteen - L'univers des mangas, une introduction à la BD japonaise (Francese): Isto libre pare assatis bon, ma io ha solamente eximinate le superficialmente. (Le traduction currente de obras japonese a francese pare esser bon e interessante.)

text: Un pensamento, UC es sol partialmente super le historia, pro le plus grande parte es un examination technical de le media. Existe multe alter libros, puremente e plus melior super le historia, totevia. No sape securemente de libros super Europa, ancora. Io necessite recercar. Wakuran 22:19, 6 april 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fontes