Razgovor:Dubrovačka Republika

message: Tko ima vremena i zna povijest, trebalo bi prebaciti dio teksta sa Dubrovnik ovdje. — Prethodni nepotpisani komentar napisao je JOLO (razgovor • doprinosi)

message: Evo sa razgovora na en.wikipediji. Netko se pravi ka da nije ništa vidia ni pročita, pa sad pokušava progurat nike stvari ovdi. Književnost dubrovačkih pisaca je na hrvatskom jeziku, i neka se ne pravi blesav onaj koji to misli iskrićat i izvrćat. 
===title====
Marin Držić wrote in good native language (today called Croatian) and in his plays he says "Republic of Dubrovnik", that was in 1500s. So this whole article is utter nonsense, and talk page is full of Italian and Serbian nationalism (Sargeras). Complete article needs to be rewritten.
Official languages of the Republic were Italian and Latin, that's why Republic of Ragusa in all foreign (non-Croatian) historical sources. It's utter stupidity that Serbo-Croatian was poorly used - it was commonly used (particularly that Croatian is "recent" - Dric wrote in excelletn Croatian language, as did Mavro Vetranović and other writers),but in diplomatic and birocratic jobs Latin and Italian (and Turkish) were used. 
About the language itself, it was (and still is!) South-Slavic officially known as "Serbo-Croatian" between 1945 and 1990, but it's (in Drzic's plays and today in common speech of Dubrovnik area) the local "shtokavian" speech, which is now of course part of Croatian (as Dubrovnik is in Croatia since fall of the Republic, and by the way all Dalmatian reinessance writers which communicated with Dubrovnik writers considered them as part of same Dalmatian South-Slavic culture, which later became foundation of modern Croatian culture. But indeed, the name of language then wasn't Serbian nor Croatian nor Serbo-Croatian because languages were standardized only in late 1800s, so it's best to de described as local Dubrovnik koine (maybe with notion that it's still local dialect in Dubrovnik area and is part of /officially called/ Croatian language now).
Tomsak 10:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
In English, this is almost always referred to as the "Republic of Ragusa".  Would people object if I move it? john k 16:51, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It seems to have already been moved from "Republic of Dubrovnik", since other pages link there and the intro never mentions "Dubrovnik Republic".  Shouldn't the intro use the same terminology as the title?--The Human Spellchecker 03:59, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, we should.

text: Sargeras 11:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, in the midst of all this, I see nobody objecting to Republic of Ragusa as the proper title for this article.  It is always called Ragusa in this time period, and not Dubrovnik, and the elites were Italianized, so I'm going to move it. john k 14:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Kubura had moved it back to Republic of Dubrovnik, but it was done via copy&paste and without any reason shown, so I reverted it. --Joy [shallot] 19:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"...'South-Slavic officially known as "Serbo-Croatian" between 1945 and 1990..".
Wrong. The AVNOJ/ZAVNOH decisions, explicitly declare those languages as two separate languages ("decisions should be given in Slovenian, Croatia, Macedonian and Serbian". That was also in a decision from the times of DFJ (before FNRJ was declared!). Reference to follow. 
"...name of language then wasn't Serbian nor Croatian nor Serbo-Croatian because languages were standardized only in late 1800s...". 
Wrong. The name of the language was Croatian, much before. See the links in the sections under. Here is also a link (from HAZU) to the work of Franciscan Bernardin Splićanin : "Pistvle i Evanyelya po sfe godischie harvatschim yazichom stumacena . - Novo pristampana i spomgnom priuiyena, po nacinu nouoga Missala nareyena po sfetoy materi Crichui - Prodayuse v Bnetcih pri sfetomu Xulianu v chgnigara chi darxi zlamen od Macche, 1586. . This is the second edition of his "Lekcionar". The first edition  is from 1495.. ISBN of its reprint is 86-7397-129-2. Kubura 12:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The use of word "Croatian" is not only in one part of Croatia; it was also used in other parts of Croatia, although under foreign ruler, the conscience of Croathood existed. 
E.g., see "Katekizam : jedna malahna knjiga v hrvatski jazik istumačena" by Stipan Konzul Istranin (Stipan Konzul from Istra peninsula). 
Translation: "Katekism: a small book in Croatian language explained". The book is from 1564. Here is a link from HAZU . Kubura 12:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Materijali sa en.wiki 

message: Marin Držić wrote in good native language (today called Croatian) and in his plays he says "Republic of Dubrovnik", that was in 1500s. So this whole article is utter nonsense, and talk page is full of Italian and Serbian nationalism (Sargeras). Complete article needs to be rewritten.
Official languages of the Republic were Italian and Latin, that's why Republic of Ragusa in all foreign (non-Croatian) historical sources. It's utter stupidity that Serbo-Croatian was poorly used - it was commonly used (particularly that Croatian is "recent" - Dric wrote in excelletn Croatian language, as did Mavro Vetranović and other writers),but in diplomatic and birocratic jobs Latin and Italian (and Turkish) were used. 
About the language itself, it was (and still is!) South-Slavic officially known as "Serbo-Croatian" between 1945 and 1990, but it's (in Drzic's plays and today in common speech of Dubrovnik area) the local "shtokavian" speech, which is now of course part of Croatian (as Dubrovnik is in Croatia since fall of the Republic, and by the way all Dalmatian reinessance writers which communicated with Dubrovnik writers considered them as part of same Dalmatian South-Slavic culture, which later became foundation of modern Croatian culture. But indeed, the name of language then wasn't Serbian nor Croatian nor Serbo-Croatian because languages were standardized only in late 1800s, so it's best to de described as local Dubrovnik koine (maybe with notion that it's still local dialect in Dubrovnik area and is part of /officially called/ Croatian language now).
Tomsak 10:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
In English, this is almost always referred to as the "Republic of Ragusa".  Would people object if I move it? john k 16:51, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It seems to have already been moved from "Republic of Dubrovnik", since other pages link there and the intro never mentions "Dubrovnik Republic".  Shouldn't the intro use the same terminology as the title?--The Human Spellchecker 03:59, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, we should.

text: Sargeras 11:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, in the midst of all this, I see nobody objecting to Republic of Ragusa as the proper title for this article.  It is always called Ragusa in this time period, and not Dubrovnik, and the elites were Italianized, so I'm going to move it. john k 14:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Kubura had moved it back to Republic of Dubrovnik, but it was done via copy&paste and without any reason shown, so I reverted it. --Joy [shallot] 19:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"...'South-Slavic officially known as "Serbo-Croatian" between 1945 and 1990..".
Wrong. The AVNOJ/ZAVNOH decisions, explicitly declare those languages as two separate languages ("decisions should be given in Slovenian, Croatia, Macedonian and Serbian". That was also in a decision from the times of DFJ (before FNRJ was declared!). Reference to follow. 
"...name of language then wasn't Serbian nor Croatian nor Serbo-Croatian because languages were standardized only in late 1800s...". 
Wrong. The name of the language was Croatian, much before. See the links in the sections under. Here is also a link (from HAZU) to the work of Franciscan Bernardin Splićanin : "Pistvle i Evanyelya po sfe godischie harvatschim yazichom stumacena . - Novo pristampana i spomgnom priuiyena, po nacinu nouoga Missala nareyena po sfetoy materi Crichui - Prodayuse v Bnetcih pri sfetomu Xulianu v chgnigara chi darxi zlamen od Macche, 1586. . This is the second edition of his "Lekcionar". The first edition  is from 1495.. ISBN of its reprint is 86-7397-129-2. Kubura 12:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The use of word "Croatian" is not only in one part of Croatia; it was also used in other parts of Croatia, although under foreign ruler, the conscience of Croathood existed. 
E.g., see "Katekizam : jedna malahna knjiga v hrvatski jazik istumačena" by Stipan Konzul Istranin (Stipan Konzul from Istra peninsula). 
Translation: "Katekism: a small book in Croatian language explained". The book is from 1564. Here is a link from HAZU . Kubura 12:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: title=

message: What is with Croatian in the official languages list? The Serbo-Croatian language was poorly used in the Republic before SFRJ (which is long after the Ragusian Republic)
Before and during Napoleon's reign, they had still their own culture, and it is widely spoken with Croatian only recently (if you seperate Serbian and Croatian, I don't). If you already seperate the name, then you should put Serbian, because the Croatian language was completly recent.
Sargeras 11:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC
replies: text: ::And somebody wanted to have this person ("Sargeras" a.k.a. "HolyRomanEmperor" a.k.a. "HRE") as an administrator? Four times? A "neutral person"?? This text above is a typical example of open greaterserbian expansionism. Denying of belonging of Republic of Dubrovnik to Croatia and Croatian culture. Denying the Croatian culture and Croats at all. Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I beg to differ. We have had this discussion several times on other Wikipedia articles, and User:Mir Harven has yet to see a rebuttal of his opinion, and the opinion of most Croatian literary historians, that the Dubrovnik language is Croatian heritage.

text: From Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
replies: text: :  virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata". Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html

text: :  So- virtually everything written on shtokavian dialect (dramas, epic poems, sonnets, didactic epics, the first (unpiblished) Bible translation (1622-1637), grammars, dictionaries,religious texts (missals, prayer books, breviaries,..) from 1400s until 1810s (the commencement of Serbian reformer Karadžić's activity) is exclusively Croatian. More than 400 years of written word in multifarious forms, in shtokavian dialect, belongs to the Croatian culture. As Serbian-Jewish writer Oskar Davicho said: " Some still speak that Croats "got" their language from us. It seems it was the other way around." (A 1978. comment on a book by Croatian philologist Zlatko Vince)

text: From Talk:Greater Serbia:
replies: text: :  a significant part (say, cca. 50%) of štokavian writers from 1500s to 1800s identified their name as Croatian, and virtually all as Slovin or Illyrian (and these terms were, in štokavian dictionaries like Mikalja's (1649) and Stulli (1810) explicitely identified as equal in meaning and content to the term Croat. Also- they never mentioned Serbian name as the name of their ethnic or national identity.

text: I'll try to dig out other quotes, I know I asked the Dubrovnik question even more directly at some page. --Joy [shallot] 12:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Ah yes, it was at Croatian language (doh, the obvious place):
replies: text: :  The topic of language with the writers from Dalmatia and Dubrovnik prior to the 19th century is somewhat blurred by the fact they by and large placed more emphasis on whether they were Slavic rather than Italic, given that Dalmatian city-states were then inhabited by those two main groups. There was less notable distinction being made between Croats and Serbs, and this, among other things, has been used as an argument to state that these people's literature is not solely Croatian heritage, thus undermining the argument that modern-day Croatian is based on old Croatian.

text: :  However, the major part of intellectuals and writers from Dalmatia who used the štokavian dialect and were of Catholic faith had explicitly expressed Croatian national affiliation, as far as mid 1500s and 1600s, some three hundred years before the Serbo-Croatian ideology had appeared. Their loyalty was first and foremost to the Catholic Christendom, but when they professed ethnic identity, they called it "Slovin" and "Illyrian" (a sort of forerunner of Catholic baroque pan-Slavism) and Croat — these 30-odd writers in the span of ca. 350 years themselves never mentioned Serb ethnic affiliation any time. A Croatian follower of Vuk Karadžić, Ivan Broz, noted that the Serbian affiliation was as foreign as Macedonian and Greek appellation at this time. Vatroslav Jagić pointed out in 1864:
replies: text: :: "As I have mentioned in the preface, history knows only two national names in these parts – the Croatian and Serbian. As far as Dubrovnik is concerned, the Serbian name was never in use; on the contrary, the Croatian name was frequently used and gladly referred to"

text: :: "At the end of the 15th century [in Dubrovnik and Dalmatia], sermons and poems were exquisitely crafted in the Croatian language by those men whose names are widely renowned by deep learning and piety."

text: :  (From The History of the Croatian language, Zagreb, 1864.)

text: --Joy [shallot]
Having said that, I also agree that the most accurate and neutral way to phrase this is simply "Slavonic language", because it's silly to try to put only Croatian and omit Serbian - it's fairly apparent that both of the languages meant by those titles today drew from this dialect. --Joy [shallot]
replies: text: ::Of course put only Croatian language and omit Serbian. No some "undetermined" "Slavonic language". If you want to put it that way, than change the lines in the articles about Nederlands and all Dutch areas (possibly even about early medieval England, because of - Saxons), and put "German language", because the languages from those areas all drew their origins from "Plattdeutsch". Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In the official Ragusan documents, their native language was called ILIRIAN. In that time it was a usual name for a language that will later be called Serbo-Croatian, and now Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian (depending on official ideology). On the top of that, every year, during a ceremony at the Sultan's court, when Ragusan diplomats were delivering a tax money (it is haed to translate HARAC), thay had a right to address sultan in their Ilirian language. My souce is Bogdan Krizman, Consuls and diplomats in Old Dubrovnik (in Croatian). In the beggining of his career, Krizman was an expert for Ragusal diplomacy. His PhD had that issue as its main subject. — Prethodni nepotpisani komentar napisao je 89.146.131.15 (razgovor • doprinosi) , 09:39, 18 September 2006
Illyrian language (ilirički jezik) was one of synonyms of Croatian language. See, e.g., Joso Voltiggi's Ričoslovnik iliričkoga, italijanskog i nimačkoga jezika) from 1802/03 , Šime Starčević's Nova ričoslovica ilirička from 1812 (in these grammars, e.g., monthnames are equal as in Croatian, nothing in common with Serb language). Many scientist works were written about that, that proof that Illyrian language=Croatian language.Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Or if you want it this way, Croat's national renaissance movement, Croat risorgimento, was named at first as "Illyric" movement. Serb movement didn't have that name. Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
===the Slavic language===
What is with Croatian in the official languages list? The Serbo-Croatian language was poorly used in the Republic before SFRJ (which is long after the Ragusian Republic)
Before and during Napoleon's reign, they had still their own culture, and it is widely spoken with Croatian only recently (if you seperate Serbian and Croatian, I don't). If you already seperate the name, then you should put Serbian, because the Croatian language was completly recent.
Sargeras 11:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC
replies: text: ::And somebody wanted to have this person ("Sargeras" a.k.a. "HolyRomanEmperor" a.k.a. "HRE") as an administrator? Four times? A "neutral person"?? This text above is a typical example of open greaterserbian expansionism. Denying of belonging of Republic of Dubrovnik to Croatia and Croatian culture. Denying the Croatian culture and Croats at all. Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I beg to differ. We have had this discussion several times on other Wikipedia articles, and User:Mir Harven has yet to see a rebuttal of his opinion, and the opinion of most Croatian literary historians, that the Dubrovnik language is Croatian heritage.

text: From Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
replies: text: :  virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata". Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html

text: :  So- virtually everything written on shtokavian dialect (dramas, epic poems, sonnets, didactic epics, the first (unpiblished) Bible translation (1622-1637), grammars, dictionaries,religious texts (missals, prayer books, breviaries,..) from 1400s until 1810s (the commencement of Serbian reformer Karadžić's activity) is exclusively Croatian. More than 400 years of written word in multifarious forms, in shtokavian dialect, belongs to the Croatian culture. As Serbian-Jewish writer Oskar Davicho said: " Some still speak that Croats "got" their language from us. It seems it was the other way around." (A 1978. comment on a book by Croatian philologist Zlatko Vince)

text: From Talk:Greater Serbia:
replies: text: :  a significant part (say, cca. 50%) of štokavian writers from 1500s to 1800s identified their name as Croatian, and virtually all as Slovin or Illyrian (and these terms were, in štokavian dictionaries like Mikalja's (1649) and Stulli (1810) explicitely identified as equal in meaning and content to the term Croat. Also- they never mentioned Serbian name as the name of their ethnic or national identity.

text: I'll try to dig out other quotes, I know I asked the Dubrovnik question even more directly at some page. --Joy [shallot] 12:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Ah yes, it was at Croatian language (doh, the obvious place):
replies: text: :  The topic of language with the writers from Dalmatia and Dubrovnik prior to the 19th century is somewhat blurred by the fact they by and large placed more emphasis on whether they were Slavic rather than Italic, given that Dalmatian city-states were then inhabited by those two main groups. There was less notable distinction being made between Croats and Serbs, and this, among other things, has been used as an argument to state that these people's literature is not solely Croatian heritage, thus undermining the argument that modern-day Croatian is based on old Croatian.

text: :  However, the major part of intellectuals and writers from Dalmatia who used the štokavian dialect and were of Catholic faith had explicitly expressed Croatian national affiliation, as far as mid 1500s and 1600s, some three hundred years before the Serbo-Croatian ideology had appeared. Their loyalty was first and foremost to the Catholic Christendom, but when they professed ethnic identity, they called it "Slovin" and "Illyrian" (a sort of forerunner of Catholic baroque pan-Slavism) and Croat — these 30-odd writers in the span of ca. 350 years themselves never mentioned Serb ethnic affiliation any time. A Croatian follower of Vuk Karadžić, Ivan Broz, noted that the Serbian affiliation was as foreign as Macedonian and Greek appellation at this time. Vatroslav Jagić pointed out in 1864:
replies: text: :: "As I have mentioned in the preface, history knows only two national names in these parts – the Croatian and Serbian. As far as Dubrovnik is concerned, the Serbian name was never in use; on the contrary, the Croatian name was frequently used and gladly referred to"

text: :: "At the end of the 15th century [in Dubrovnik and Dalmatia], sermons and poems were exquisitely crafted in the Croatian language by those men whose names are widely renowned by deep learning and piety."

text: :  (From The History of the Croatian language, Zagreb, 1864.)

text: --Joy [shallot]
Having said that, I also agree that the most accurate and neutral way to phrase this is simply "Slavonic language", because it's silly to try to put only Croatian and omit Serbian - it's fairly apparent that both of the languages meant by those titles today drew from this dialect. --Joy [shallot]
replies: text: ::Of course put only Croatian language and omit Serbian. No some "undetermined" "Slavonic language". If you want to put it that way, than change the lines in the articles about Nederlands and all Dutch areas (possibly even about early medieval England, because of - Saxons), and put "German language", because the languages from those areas all drew their origins from "Plattdeutsch". Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In the official Ragusan documents, their native language was called ILIRIAN. In that time it was a usual name for a language that will later be called Serbo-Croatian, and now Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian (depending on official ideology). On the top of that, every year, during a ceremony at the Sultan's court, when Ragusan diplomats were delivering a tax money (it is haed to translate HARAC), thay had a right to address sultan in their Ilirian language. My souce is Bogdan Krizman, Consuls and diplomats in Old Dubrovnik (in Croatian). In the beggining of his career, Krizman was an expert for Ragusal diplomacy. His PhD had that issue as its main subject. — Prethodni nepotpisani komentar napisao je 89.146.131.15 (razgovor • doprinosi) , 09:39, 18 September 2006
Illyrian language (ilirički jezik) was one of synonyms of Croatian language. See, e.g., Joso Voltiggi's Ričoslovnik iliričkoga, italijanskog i nimačkoga jezika) from 1802/03 , Šime Starčević's Nova ričoslovica ilirička from 1812 (in these grammars, e.g., monthnames are equal as in Croatian, nothing in common with Serb language). Many scientist works were written about that, that proof that Illyrian language=Croatian language.Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Or if you want it this way, Croat's national renaissance movement, Croat risorgimento, was named at first as "Illyric" movement. Serb movement didn't have that name. Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
===the Slavic language===
What is with Croatian in the official languages list? The Serbo-Croatian language was poorly used in the Republic before SFRJ (which is long after the Ragusian Republic)
Before and during Napoleon's reign, they had still their own culture, and it is widely spoken with Croatian only recently (if you seperate Serbian and Croatian, I don't). If you already seperate the name, then you should put Serbian, because the Croatian language was completly recent.
Sargeras 11:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC
replies: text: ::And somebody wanted to have this person ("Sargeras" a.k.a. "HolyRomanEmperor" a.k.a. "HRE") as an administrator? Four times? A "neutral person"?? This text above is a typical example of open greaterserbian expansionism. Denying of belonging of Republic of Dubrovnik to Croatia and Croatian culture. Denying the Croatian culture and Croats at all. Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I beg to differ. We have had this discussion several times on other Wikipedia articles, and User:Mir Harven has yet to see a rebuttal of his opinion, and the opinion of most Croatian literary historians, that the Dubrovnik language is Croatian heritage.

text: From Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
replies: text: :  virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata". Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html

text: :  So- virtually everything written on shtokavian dialect (dramas, epic poems, sonnets, didactic epics, the first (unpiblished) Bible translation (1622-1637), grammars, dictionaries,religious texts (missals, prayer books, breviaries,..) from 1400s until 1810s (the commencement of Serbian reformer Karadžić's activity) is exclusively Croatian. More than 400 years of written word in multifarious forms, in shtokavian dialect, belongs to the Croatian culture. As Serbian-Jewish writer Oskar Davicho said: " Some still speak that Croats "got" their language from us. It seems it was the other way around." (A 1978. comment on a book by Croatian philologist Zlatko Vince)

text: From Talk:Greater Serbia:
replies: text: :  a significant part (say, cca. 50%) of štokavian writers from 1500s to 1800s identified their name as Croatian, and virtually all as Slovin or Illyrian (and these terms were, in štokavian dictionaries like Mikalja's (1649) and Stulli (1810) explicitely identified as equal in meaning and content to the term Croat. Also- they never mentioned Serbian name as the name of their ethnic or national identity.

text: I'll try to dig out other quotes, I know I asked the Dubrovnik question even more directly at some page. --Joy [shallot] 12:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Ah yes, it was at Croatian language (doh, the obvious place):
replies: text: :  The topic of language with the writers from Dalmatia and Dubrovnik prior to the 19th century is somewhat blurred by the fact they by and large placed more emphasis on whether they were Slavic rather than Italic, given that Dalmatian city-states were then inhabited by those two main groups. There was less notable distinction being made between Croats and Serbs, and this, among other things, has been used as an argument to state that these people's literature is not solely Croatian heritage, thus undermining the argument that modern-day Croatian is based on old Croatian.

text: :  However, the major part of intellectuals and writers from Dalmatia who used the štokavian dialect and were of Catholic faith had explicitly expressed Croatian national affiliation, as far as mid 1500s and 1600s, some three hundred years before the Serbo-Croatian ideology had appeared. Their loyalty was first and foremost to the Catholic Christendom, but when they professed ethnic identity, they called it "Slovin" and "Illyrian" (a sort of forerunner of Catholic baroque pan-Slavism) and Croat — these 30-odd writers in the span of ca. 350 years themselves never mentioned Serb ethnic affiliation any time. A Croatian follower of Vuk Karadžić, Ivan Broz, noted that the Serbian affiliation was as foreign as Macedonian and Greek appellation at this time. Vatroslav Jagić pointed out in 1864:
replies: text: :: "As I have mentioned in the preface, history knows only two national names in these parts – the Croatian and Serbian. As far as Dubrovnik is concerned, the Serbian name was never in use; on the contrary, the Croatian name was frequently used and gladly referred to"

text: :: "At the end of the 15th century [in Dubrovnik and Dalmatia], sermons and poems were exquisitely crafted in the Croatian language by those men whose names are widely renowned by deep learning and piety."

text: :  (From The History of the Croatian language, Zagreb, 1864.)

text: --Joy [shallot]
Having said that, I also agree that the most accurate and neutral way to phrase this is simply "Slavonic language", because it's silly to try to put only Croatian and omit Serbian - it's fairly apparent that both of the languages meant by those titles today drew from this dialect. --Joy [shallot]
replies: text: ::Of course put only Croatian language and omit Serbian. No some "undetermined" "Slavonic language". If you want to put it that way, than change the lines in the articles about Nederlands and all Dutch areas (possibly even about early medieval England, because of - Saxons), and put "German language", because the languages from those areas all drew their origins from "Plattdeutsch". Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In the official Ragusan documents, their native language was called ILIRIAN. In that time it was a usual name for a language that will later be called Serbo-Croatian, and now Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian (depending on official ideology). On the top of that, every year, during a ceremony at the Sultan's court, when Ragusan diplomats were delivering a tax money (it is haed to translate HARAC), thay had a right to address sultan in their Ilirian language. My souce is Bogdan Krizman, Consuls and diplomats in Old Dubrovnik (in Croatian). In the beggining of his career, Krizman was an expert for Ragusal diplomacy. His PhD had that issue as its main subject. — Prethodni nepotpisani komentar napisao je 89.146.131.15 (razgovor • doprinosi) , 09:39, 18 September 2006
Illyrian language (ilirički jezik) was one of synonyms of Croatian language. See, e.g., Joso Voltiggi's Ričoslovnik iliričkoga, italijanskog i nimačkoga jezika) from 1802/03 , Šime Starčević's Nova ričoslovica ilirička from 1812 (in these grammars, e.g., monthnames are equal as in Croatian, nothing in common with Serb language). Many scientist works were written about that, that proof that Illyrian language=Croatian language.Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Or if you want it this way, Croat's national renaissance movement, Croat risorgimento, was named at first as "Illyric" movement. Serb movement didn't have that name. Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
=== Illyrian language ===
Dubrovnikan Franciscan Joakim Stulić in his work "Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum", printed in 1801 in Buda, gives this explanation of the term "illyrice": "Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski". Nowhere any "Serbo-", just Croatian.
The "Lexicon latinum" of the Jesuit Andrija Jambrešić printed in 1742 has the annex: Index Illyrico sive croatico — latinus". 
The Archbishop of Split Stipan Cosmi declares new orders  for its parishes in 1688 in Latin and in Croatian, in the was that he has translated the term "illyricus"  with the term "hrvatski" (idiomo Illyrico - harvaskoga izgovora; clero Illyrico - klera harvaskoga). See the first page . The link is from HAZU.
The Franciscan Lovro Sitović Ljubušak in his work"Pisma od pakla : navlastito od paklenoga oggna, tamnosti, i viçnosti, koju iz svetoga Pisma staroga i novaga zakona, takoger iz sveti otacza i nauçiteglia / izvede i harvatski jezik pivagne otacz F. Lovro Gliubusckoga reda S.O. Francesck, darxave Bosne Argentine ... u pet poglavj razdigliena."  (printed in Venice in 1727) has said that is wrote it in Harvatski jezik, and in the introduction in Latin he calls that language illiricum idioma The first page ; the link is from HAZU.Kubura 06:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: the Slavic language

message: What is with Croatian in the official languages list? The Serbo-Croatian language was poorly used in the Republic before SFRJ (which is long after the Ragusian Republic)
Before and during Napoleon's reign, they had still their own culture, and it is widely spoken with Croatian only recently (if you seperate Serbian and Croatian, I don't). If you already seperate the name, then you should put Serbian, because the Croatian language was completly recent.
Sargeras 11:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC
replies: text: ::And somebody wanted to have this person ("Sargeras" a.k.a. "HolyRomanEmperor" a.k.a. "HRE") as an administrator? Four times? A "neutral person"?? This text above is a typical example of open greaterserbian expansionism. Denying of belonging of Republic of Dubrovnik to Croatia and Croatian culture. Denying the Croatian culture and Croats at all. Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I beg to differ. We have had this discussion several times on other Wikipedia articles, and User:Mir Harven has yet to see a rebuttal of his opinion, and the opinion of most Croatian literary historians, that the Dubrovnik language is Croatian heritage.

text: From Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
replies: text: :  virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata". Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html

text: :  So- virtually everything written on shtokavian dialect (dramas, epic poems, sonnets, didactic epics, the first (unpiblished) Bible translation (1622-1637), grammars, dictionaries,religious texts (missals, prayer books, breviaries,..) from 1400s until 1810s (the commencement of Serbian reformer Karadžić's activity) is exclusively Croatian. More than 400 years of written word in multifarious forms, in shtokavian dialect, belongs to the Croatian culture. As Serbian-Jewish writer Oskar Davicho said: " Some still speak that Croats "got" their language from us. It seems it was the other way around." (A 1978. comment on a book by Croatian philologist Zlatko Vince)

text: From Talk:Greater Serbia:
replies: text: :  a significant part (say, cca. 50%) of štokavian writers from 1500s to 1800s identified their name as Croatian, and virtually all as Slovin or Illyrian (and these terms were, in štokavian dictionaries like Mikalja's (1649) and Stulli (1810) explicitely identified as equal in meaning and content to the term Croat. Also- they never mentioned Serbian name as the name of their ethnic or national identity.

text: I'll try to dig out other quotes, I know I asked the Dubrovnik question even more directly at some page. --Joy [shallot] 12:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Ah yes, it was at Croatian language (doh, the obvious place):
replies: text: :  The topic of language with the writers from Dalmatia and Dubrovnik prior to the 19th century is somewhat blurred by the fact they by and large placed more emphasis on whether they were Slavic rather than Italic, given that Dalmatian city-states were then inhabited by those two main groups. There was less notable distinction being made between Croats and Serbs, and this, among other things, has been used as an argument to state that these people's literature is not solely Croatian heritage, thus undermining the argument that modern-day Croatian is based on old Croatian.

text: :  However, the major part of intellectuals and writers from Dalmatia who used the štokavian dialect and were of Catholic faith had explicitly expressed Croatian national affiliation, as far as mid 1500s and 1600s, some three hundred years before the Serbo-Croatian ideology had appeared. Their loyalty was first and foremost to the Catholic Christendom, but when they professed ethnic identity, they called it "Slovin" and "Illyrian" (a sort of forerunner of Catholic baroque pan-Slavism) and Croat — these 30-odd writers in the span of ca. 350 years themselves never mentioned Serb ethnic affiliation any time. A Croatian follower of Vuk Karadžić, Ivan Broz, noted that the Serbian affiliation was as foreign as Macedonian and Greek appellation at this time. Vatroslav Jagić pointed out in 1864:
replies: text: :: "As I have mentioned in the preface, history knows only two national names in these parts – the Croatian and Serbian. As far as Dubrovnik is concerned, the Serbian name was never in use; on the contrary, the Croatian name was frequently used and gladly referred to"

text: :: "At the end of the 15th century [in Dubrovnik and Dalmatia], sermons and poems were exquisitely crafted in the Croatian language by those men whose names are widely renowned by deep learning and piety."

text: :  (From The History of the Croatian language, Zagreb, 1864.)

text: --Joy [shallot]
Having said that, I also agree that the most accurate and neutral way to phrase this is simply "Slavonic language", because it's silly to try to put only Croatian and omit Serbian - it's fairly apparent that both of the languages meant by those titles today drew from this dialect. --Joy [shallot]
replies: text: ::Of course put only Croatian language and omit Serbian. No some "undetermined" "Slavonic language". If you want to put it that way, than change the lines in the articles about Nederlands and all Dutch areas (possibly even about early medieval England, because of - Saxons), and put "German language", because the languages from those areas all drew their origins from "Plattdeutsch". Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In the official Ragusan documents, their native language was called ILIRIAN. In that time it was a usual name for a language that will later be called Serbo-Croatian, and now Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian (depending on official ideology). On the top of that, every year, during a ceremony at the Sultan's court, when Ragusan diplomats were delivering a tax money (it is haed to translate HARAC), thay had a right to address sultan in their Ilirian language. My souce is Bogdan Krizman, Consuls and diplomats in Old Dubrovnik (in Croatian). In the beggining of his career, Krizman was an expert for Ragusal diplomacy. His PhD had that issue as its main subject. — Prethodni nepotpisani komentar napisao je 89.146.131.15 (razgovor • doprinosi) , 09:39, 18 September 2006
Illyrian language (ilirički jezik) was one of synonyms of Croatian language. See, e.g., Joso Voltiggi's Ričoslovnik iliričkoga, italijanskog i nimačkoga jezika) from 1802/03 , Šime Starčević's Nova ričoslovica ilirička from 1812 (in these grammars, e.g., monthnames are equal as in Croatian, nothing in common with Serb language). Many scientist works were written about that, that proof that Illyrian language=Croatian language.Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Or if you want it this way, Croat's national renaissance movement, Croat risorgimento, was named at first as "Illyric" movement. Serb movement didn't have that name. Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: the Slavic language

message: What is with Croatian in the official languages list? The Serbo-Croatian language was poorly used in the Republic before SFRJ (which is long after the Ragusian Republic)
Before and during Napoleon's reign, they had still their own culture, and it is widely spoken with Croatian only recently (if you seperate Serbian and Croatian, I don't). If you already seperate the name, then you should put Serbian, because the Croatian language was completly recent.
Sargeras 11:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC
replies: text: ::And somebody wanted to have this person ("Sargeras" a.k.a. "HolyRomanEmperor" a.k.a. "HRE") as an administrator? Four times? A "neutral person"?? This text above is a typical example of open greaterserbian expansionism. Denying of belonging of Republic of Dubrovnik to Croatia and Croatian culture. Denying the Croatian culture and Croats at all. Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I beg to differ. We have had this discussion several times on other Wikipedia articles, and User:Mir Harven has yet to see a rebuttal of his opinion, and the opinion of most Croatian literary historians, that the Dubrovnik language is Croatian heritage.

text: From Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
replies: text: :  virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata". Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html

text: :  So- virtually everything written on shtokavian dialect (dramas, epic poems, sonnets, didactic epics, the first (unpiblished) Bible translation (1622-1637), grammars, dictionaries,religious texts (missals, prayer books, breviaries,..) from 1400s until 1810s (the commencement of Serbian reformer Karadžić's activity) is exclusively Croatian. More than 400 years of written word in multifarious forms, in shtokavian dialect, belongs to the Croatian culture. As Serbian-Jewish writer Oskar Davicho said: " Some still speak that Croats "got" their language from us. It seems it was the other way around." (A 1978. comment on a book by Croatian philologist Zlatko Vince)

text: From Talk:Greater Serbia:
replies: text: :  a significant part (say, cca. 50%) of štokavian writers from 1500s to 1800s identified their name as Croatian, and virtually all as Slovin or Illyrian (and these terms were, in štokavian dictionaries like Mikalja's (1649) and Stulli (1810) explicitely identified as equal in meaning and content to the term Croat. Also- they never mentioned Serbian name as the name of their ethnic or national identity.

text: I'll try to dig out other quotes, I know I asked the Dubrovnik question even more directly at some page. --Joy [shallot] 12:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Ah yes, it was at Croatian language (doh, the obvious place):
replies: text: :  The topic of language with the writers from Dalmatia and Dubrovnik prior to the 19th century is somewhat blurred by the fact they by and large placed more emphasis on whether they were Slavic rather than Italic, given that Dalmatian city-states were then inhabited by those two main groups. There was less notable distinction being made between Croats and Serbs, and this, among other things, has been used as an argument to state that these people's literature is not solely Croatian heritage, thus undermining the argument that modern-day Croatian is based on old Croatian.

text: :  However, the major part of intellectuals and writers from Dalmatia who used the štokavian dialect and were of Catholic faith had explicitly expressed Croatian national affiliation, as far as mid 1500s and 1600s, some three hundred years before the Serbo-Croatian ideology had appeared. Their loyalty was first and foremost to the Catholic Christendom, but when they professed ethnic identity, they called it "Slovin" and "Illyrian" (a sort of forerunner of Catholic baroque pan-Slavism) and Croat — these 30-odd writers in the span of ca. 350 years themselves never mentioned Serb ethnic affiliation any time. A Croatian follower of Vuk Karadžić, Ivan Broz, noted that the Serbian affiliation was as foreign as Macedonian and Greek appellation at this time. Vatroslav Jagić pointed out in 1864:
replies: text: :: "As I have mentioned in the preface, history knows only two national names in these parts – the Croatian and Serbian. As far as Dubrovnik is concerned, the Serbian name was never in use; on the contrary, the Croatian name was frequently used and gladly referred to"

text: :: "At the end of the 15th century [in Dubrovnik and Dalmatia], sermons and poems were exquisitely crafted in the Croatian language by those men whose names are widely renowned by deep learning and piety."

text: :  (From The History of the Croatian language, Zagreb, 1864.)

text: --Joy [shallot]
Having said that, I also agree that the most accurate and neutral way to phrase this is simply "Slavonic language", because it's silly to try to put only Croatian and omit Serbian - it's fairly apparent that both of the languages meant by those titles today drew from this dialect. --Joy [shallot]
replies: text: ::Of course put only Croatian language and omit Serbian. No some "undetermined" "Slavonic language". If you want to put it that way, than change the lines in the articles about Nederlands and all Dutch areas (possibly even about early medieval England, because of - Saxons), and put "German language", because the languages from those areas all drew their origins from "Plattdeutsch". Kubura 08:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In the official Ragusan documents, their native language was called ILIRIAN. In that time it was a usual name for a language that will later be called Serbo-Croatian, and now Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian (depending on official ideology). On the top of that, every year, during a ceremony at the Sultan's court, when Ragusan diplomats were delivering a tax money (it is haed to translate HARAC), thay had a right to address sultan in their Ilirian language. My souce is Bogdan Krizman, Consuls and diplomats in Old Dubrovnik (in Croatian). In the beggining of his career, Krizman was an expert for Ragusal diplomacy. His PhD had that issue as its main subject. — Prethodni nepotpisani komentar napisao je 89.146.131.15 (razgovor • doprinosi) , 09:39, 18 September 2006
Illyrian language (ilirički jezik) was one of synonyms of Croatian language. See, e.g., Joso Voltiggi's Ričoslovnik iliričkoga, italijanskog i nimačkoga jezika) from 1802/03 , Šime Starčević's Nova ričoslovica ilirička from 1812 (in these grammars, e.g., monthnames are equal as in Croatian, nothing in common with Serb language). Many scientist works were written about that, that proof that Illyrian language=Croatian language.Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Or if you want it this way, Croat's national renaissance movement, Croat risorgimento, was named at first as "Illyric" movement. Serb movement didn't have that name. Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: the Slavic language

message: Dubrovnikan Franciscan Joakim Stulić in his work "Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum", printed in 1801 in Buda, gives this explanation of the term "illyrice": "Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski". Nowhere any "Serbo-", just Croatian.
The "Lexicon latinum" of the Jesuit Andrija Jambrešić printed in 1742 has the annex: ''Index Illyrico sive croatico — latinus". 
The Archbishop of Split Stipan Cosmi declares new orders  for its parishes in 1688 in Latin and in Croatian, in the was that he has translated the term "illyricus"  with the term "hrvatski" (idiomo Illyrico - harvaskoga izgovora; clero Illyrico - klera harvaskoga). See the first page . The link is from HAZU.
The Franciscan Lovro Sitović Ljubušak in his work"Pisma od pakla : navlastito od paklenoga oggna, tamnosti, i viçnosti, koju iz svetoga Pisma staroga i novaga zakona, takoger iz sveti otacza i nauçiteglia / izvede i harvatski jezik pivagne otacz F. Lovro Gliubusckoga reda S.O. Francesck, darxave Bosne Argentine ... u pet poglavj razdigliena."  (printed in Venice in 1727) has said that is wrote it in Harvatski jezik, and in the introduction in Latin he calls that language illiricum idioma The first page ; the link is from HAZU.Kubura 06:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illyrian language 

message: Now, to some links. Here  is a link to a library of Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts. This link shows a picture of first pages of a book named "Zarcalo dvhovno od pocetka i sfarhe xivota coviecanskoga : razdieglieno, i razreyeno u petnaes razgovora, a u stoo, i pedeset dubbia, alliti sumgna poglavitieh. Vcignenieh meyu mesctrom, i gnegoviem vcenijkom. / Istomaceno iz yezikka italianskoga u dubrovacki po D. Mauru Orbinu Dubrovcaninu Opattu od S. Marie od Backe, od Reda Sfetoga Benedikta. ". Printed in Venice, in 1621. These  and  are pages from the edition from 1703. Here are the catalogue search results , . 
The important part is where it states "istomaceno iz jezika italijanskoga u dubrovacki" (translated from the Italian language into Dubrovnik's language), translated by  the Dubrovnikan (not "Ragusan") D.Mauro Orbin.
Dubrovnik's language, a Slavic one. If Dubrovnik (not "Ragusa") was Italian-speaking, why it states in an old book that it was translated from Italian into Dubrovnik's language? Kubura 09:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. The book of Ivan (Dživo) Bučić-Vučić . 1st two pages. Title says: "Mandaliena pokorniza gospodina Giua Uvcichia Bunichia vlastelina dvbrouachoga.". Printed in Venice 1705. Catalogue search result .
"...of mr Dživo Vučić Bunić, nobel of Dubrovnik." Kubura 09:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. The book of a Dubrovnik's nobel Nikola Bunić . 1st two pages. Catalogue search result . 
Title says:"Grad Dvbrovnich vlastelom v trexgniv. / Piesan gospodina Nicca Giva Bvnichia vlastelina dubrouachoga. " Printed in Ancona 1667. Kubura 09:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Gučetić family...
The book (1st page)  titled "Rosario s'druxbom prislavnog imena Iesusa Spassiteglia nascega. Suprotiva kriviem kletvami proklinaniu i psovkami protiva imenu Boxiemu. / Sloxeno po nedostoinomu slusi boxiemu, poctovanomu pripoviedaozu Ozzu Fra Arkangelu Guceticchiu Dubrovcianinu od Reda Fratara Predikatura". Catalogue search result .
Written by franciscan Arkangel Gučetić Dubrovčanin (not "Ragusino"). Printed in 1597 in Rome. Kubura 10:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's a book in Italian. Link with a review (though, in Croat, by academic Tonko Maroević) is here. Link is from online edition of magazine "Vijenac" of Matica hrvatska. Book is:
Ljiljana Avirović, La traduzione poetica in Croazia: a) Il caso dell'Aminta di Torquato Tasso i b) Petrarca e il petrarchismo — aspetti della traduzione del sonetto, Cleup, Padova, 1999
A cite from the review:
"Gotovo svi protagonisti hrvatskoga pjesništva 16. stoljeća istaknuli su se i svojim verzijama inozemnih klasika: Marulić prevodi Dantea i Petrarku, Katona i Kempenca, sv. Bernarda i sv. Bonaventuru, Hektorović i Lucić daju vlastita tumačenja Ovidijevih pjesama, Menčetić i Ranjina više nego variraju na Petrarkine motive, dok Dominko Zlatarić objavljuje čitave dramske tekstove Tassa i Sofokla, želeći Elektru posljednjega navedenog — prema vlastitim riječima — »učiniti Hrvaćkom«." 
The translation is: 
"Almost all protagonist of Croat poetry of 16th c. have proven themselves with their versions of foreign classics: Marulić translates Dante and Petrarca, Katon and Kempenc, st. Bernard and st. Bonaventura, Hektorović and Lucić are giving their own comments of Ovidius poems, Menčetić i Ranjina more then make variations on Petrarca's motives, while Dominko Zlatarić publishes whole drama texts of Tasso and Sofocles, wanting to make the Elektra of Sofocles, as he said himself, "a Croat woman" (»učiniti Hrvaćkom«)." Kubura 10:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here, a link from HAZU. catalogue search result. Elektra tragedia. Glivbmir, pripovies pastirska i Glivbav i smart Pirama i Tisbe iz vechie tugieh iesika u Harvackij isloxene. K tomusu pristavgliene niekolike piesni u smart od razlizieh / po Dominkv Slatarichiv. - V' Bnezieh : Po Aldv, 1597.Kubura 09:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
About some of my sources:
"Vijenac" are Matica hrvatska's newspapers for literature, art and science (Novine Matice hrvatske za književnost, umjetnost i znanost.).
"Matica hrvatska" is, as it declares in the article 2 of its statute "independent, non-profit, non-governmental society, founded 1842 as society for promotion of Croat culture, and that has, over the years, with his work and continuity, became a national institution". Name in Latin is Matrix Croatica. Kubura 10:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Gundulić family.
The book of Ivan Gundulić. The title says "Suse sina rasmetnoga gospodina Giva Frana Gundulichia vlastelina dubrovackoga. - V Bnecieh : po Francisccv Broiollv". Edition is supposed to be from 1650 (title page says M.DC.---). Title page . Printed in Venice. Catalogue search result .
Fourth edition from 1703. Title says "Suse sina rasmetnoga gospodina Giva Frana Gundulichia vlastelina dubrouackoga.". Printed in Venice. Title page . Catalogue search result . Kubura 13:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Držić family.
The book of Marin Držić. Catalogue search result .
Title is "Tirena / comedia Marina Darxichia". Third edition from 1630. Printed in Venice. Kubura 13:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Ranjina family.
The book of Dinko Ranjina. Title says "Piesni raslike Dinka Ragnine, vlastelina dubrovackoga : u koih on kaxe sve sctose sgodimu stvoriti kros gliubav, stoiech u gradu latinskom, od Zangle". Catalogue search result . Printed in Florence in 1563. Kubura 13:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Gradić family.
The book of Bazilije Gradić. Title says ˇˇLibarze od dievstva i dievickoga bitya v komse tomace sua kolika poglauita miesta staroga i nouoga sakona, koia od dieustua gouore i ono scto sueti naucitegli u mnosieh librieh pisciu ; Libarze velle duhovno i bogogliubno od molitve i contemplanya, sniekiem napomenam duhouniem, oniem ki xele duhouno xiuieti, uelle potrebno i korisno / [dum Basilio Gradich].". Printed in Venice in 1567. 
Catalogue search result . Title page . Kubura 13:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result .
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 . Kubura 12:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: In that grammar/dictionary, under the entry "Hrvat, Hervat" says "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata". Kubura 08:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Work of Bernardin Pavlović, franciscan from Dubrovnik Republic.
A link from HAZU. Search result . Title page . 
Priprauglegnie za dostoino rechi suetu missu i posli iste Boggu zahuaglegne / i zuagieno iz missala rimskoga i skupgleno, iz tomaçeno iz mnoghi ostaly devoti kniga i u' haruaski jezik pomgliuo i virno privedeno po Ozcu Fra Bernardinu Paulovichiu iz Dubrounika Reda Svetoga O. Franceska ... - U Mleczi : Po Stipanu Monti, 1747. . Printed in Venice in 1747. Kubura 22:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Work of Rajmund Džamanjić, Dominican from Dubrovnik republic.
A link from HAZU library. Search result . Title page . 
Nauk za piisati dobro latinskiema slovima rieci yezika slovinskoga koyiemse Dubrovcani, i sva Dalmatia kakko vlasctitiem svoyiem yezikom sluzcij. / Po M. P. Ozu F. Raymundu Giamagniku Dubrovcaninu od Reda S. Dominica. - In Venetia : Appresso Marco Ginammi, 1639. 
The work from 1639 speaks about Dubrovcani, not Ragusini. It says that "How to write good in Latin letters the words from Croatian ("slovinski" is one of synonyms of Croatian, see the section above, e.g., note that "linguae Illyricae sive Croatice" by Cosmi, and "linguae Illyricae.../...slovinski" by Mikalja)," in which Dubrovnik, and whole Dalmatia, use as their own proper language". With double confirmation. "Vlastitim"=own. "svojim"="own proper" ("svoj" is a reflexive possesive pronoun). Kubura 07:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
===Croats' dialects in old Dubrovnik Republic===
About dialects. Dubrovnikans wrote in štokavian; still, there're are historical documents from those times that point to stronger influence/presence of čakavian dialect. Kubura 08:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article in magazine "Vijenac" of Matica hrvatska: Dubrovnik i hrvatska tradicija, nr. 148, 1999. Author is Josip Lisac, Croatian linguist. Lisac deals with Croats' dialects (since 2004, assisting with Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts). Kubura 09:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article in magazine "Vijenac" of Matica hrvatska: 
Dubrovnik i hrvatska tradicija (2), nr. 149, 1999. Second part of Lisac's text. Kubura 09:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article [http://www-gewi.uni-graz.at/gr== The name of the country ==
Here's the link from HAZU.
It confirms the name of the country in Croatian, as well as that the name of language is Croatian.
"Pokripglenie umiruchi, za dobro i sveto pochi umilosti Boxioi sovoga svita / iztomaçeno, i skupgleno pria po Don Luczi Terzichiu. Koie da boglie, i upraunie izgovara u haruaski iezik; popravi i pristampa po ozcu P. Fra Bernardinu Paulovichiu iz Dubrovaçke Darssave ... Dedicato a sua eccellenza Simon Contarini .... - U Mleczi : Po Bartalu Occhj, 1747." and the scan of the first page .
The translation is "...in order to better be spoken in Croatian, fixed and reprinted by father fra Bernardin Pavlović from the country of Dubrovnik...".
Few interesting lines from that page are "Jod istoga nadostagliuni mnogi i rasliçiti Blagosovi, i Druge Stuari Svete, i Kriposne za korit Naroda Harvasckoga Kakose moxe viditi nassuarsi isti knigat".
Here's the second edition.  and the scan of an internal page . Kubura 12:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Valjda će ovo bit dovoljno za one koji se izmotavadu i želidu umanjit hrvatsku jezičnu i književnu baštinu, izmišljanjem novih jezika. 
Rasprava je na ovu temu bilo na Wikipediji, tako da se netko ne bi iša pravit blesav i ponovo pokrića priče koje su davno raspravjene. 
Wikipedija nije mjesto za pisanje izvornih radova, odnosno za osobna istraživanja. Kubura (razgovor) 22:08, 30. ožujak 2008. (CEST)
thread_title: Croathood of Dubrovnik and translations

message: About dialects. Dubrovnikans wrote in štokavian; still, there're are historical documents from those times that point to stronger influence/presence of čakavian dialect. Kubura 08:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article in magazine "Vijenac" of Matica hrvatska: Dubrovnik i hrvatska tradicija, nr. 148, 1999. Author is Josip Lisac, Croatian linguist. Lisac deals with Croats' dialects (since 2004, assisting with Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts). Kubura 09:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article in magazine "Vijenac" of Matica hrvatska: 
Dubrovnik i hrvatska tradicija (2), nr. 149, 1999. Second part of Lisac's text. Kubura 09:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article [http://www-gewi.uni-graz.at/gr== The name of the country ==
Here's the link from HAZU.
It confirms the name of the country in Croatian, as well as that the name of language is Croatian.
"Pokripglenie umiruchi, za dobro i sveto pochi umilosti Boxioi sovoga svita / iztomaçeno, i skupgleno pria po Don Luczi Terzichiu. Koie da boglie, i upraunie izgovara u haruaski iezik; popravi i pristampa po ozcu P. Fra Bernardinu Paulovichiu iz Dubrovaçke Darssave ... Dedicato a sua eccellenza Simon Contarini .... - U Mleczi : Po Bartalu Occhj, 1747." and the scan of the first page .
The translation is "...in order to better be spoken in Croatian, fixed and reprinted by father fra Bernardin Pavlović from the country of Dubrovnik...".
Few interesting lines from that page are "Jod istoga nadostagliuni mnogi i rasliçiti Blagosovi, i Druge Stuari Svete, i Kriposne za korit Naroda Harvasckoga Kakose moxe viditi nassuarsi isti knigat".
Here's the second edition.  and the scan of an internal page . Kubura 12:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Valjda će ovo bit dovoljno za one koji se izmotavadu i želidu umanjit hrvatsku jezičnu i književnu baštinu, izmišljanjem novih jezika. 
Rasprava je na ovu temu bilo na Wikipediji, tako da se netko ne bi iša pravit blesav i ponovo pokrića priče koje su davno raspravjene. 
Wikipedija nije mjesto za pisanje izvornih radova, odnosno za osobna istraživanja. Kubura (razgovor) 22:08, 30. ožujak 2008. (CEST)
thread_title: Croats' dialects in old Dubrovnik Republic

message: :Mislim da je ono obrnuto, onaj s prugama je grb DuRe, ovaj s krunom je vjerojatno dubrovačkog kneževstva (1812. - 1867. ; gdje kruna na grbu Republike???)
--89.172.90.170 21:07, 5. lipanj 2008. (CEST)
"Dubrovačko kneževstvo 1812 - 1867" NIKAD NIJE POSTOJALO jer je teritorij nekadašnje DuRe nakon Bečkog kongresa (1815.) prikljucen austrijskoj krunovini Kraljevini Dalmaciji (v. Ćosić, S., Dubrovnik nakon pada Republike, Dubrovnik, 1996) u kojoj je teritorij DuRe i Korčula do 1865. čine Dubrovačko okružje (Circolo di Ragusa). Grb s crveno-bijelim (srebrnim) prugama je stari ugarski grb kojeg je Dubrovačkoj Republici dodijelio Ludovik Anzuvinac nakon Visegradskog ugovora 1358. Taj grb je dakako imao i krunu. Grb je Republika prihvatila kao svoj i koristila ga je do ukidanja 1808. Grb se ponekad prikazuje s izvornom kraljevskom, a ponekad s tzv. "kneževskom" krunom, no to što ima krunu nije ništa neobično, gotovo sve srednjovjekovne republike imale su krunu na grbu, kao (današnjim riječnikom) "znak suvereniteta", odnosno u sklopu tadašnjih prilika, prihvacanja formalnog vrhovnistva kralja ili cara Svetog Rimskog Carstva. U 18. st. bijela (srebrna) boja nerijetko se zamjenjuje modrom (pojednostavljeni oblik takvog grba je u "kruni" grba RH), do cega je doslo najvjerojatnije zbog ukrasavanja bijelih polja modrom tintom, no izvorni crveno-bijeli (srebrni) grb s krunom vidljiv je i danas na vanjskim vratima Palace Sponza (Divona) - nekadasnja carinarnica Republike. Varijanta tog grba je i sluzbeni grb Grada Dubrovnika nakon 1993., a isti je na hrv. Wikipediji prikazan kao grb Republike. Tommy130275 (razgovor) 12:27, 5. listopada 2015. (CEST)
Uostalom vidi npr. grb i danas postojece Republike San Marino koja vuce korijene iz ranog srednjeg vijeka (kruna povrh grba, zanimljivo je da San Marino ima sluzbeni slogan LIBERTAS, sto je bio i temeljni slogan DuRe. 
Takodjer dosta danasnjih republika ima krunu povrh grba (Republika Srbija, Republika Bugarska, RH u modificiranom obliku...) sto se tumaci "oznakom suvereniteta". Postoje i tzv. "gradjanske krune" (corona turrita, corona murale) vidljive npr. na grbovima talijanskih opcina i gradova, na grbu Savezne Republike Austrije, na portugalskim grbovima itd. Tommy130275 (razgovor) 13:05, 5. listopada 2015. (CEST)
thread_title:  Grb 

message: 'Ajmo ljudi, dajte se na rad malo. Englezi imaju više napisano o Dubrovniku nego Hrvati, tako i velika većina članaka isto... Ovo se mora mijenjati, a ja sam ovo morao napisati. Skupite kakve dokumente, nešto, prevodite... ovo je sramota!--Wüstenfuchs (razgovor) 15:40, 16. studenog 2009. (CET)
Haha, da to samo englezi pišu bilo bi dobro, ali nažalost mnogi nacionalisti iz Srbije i Bosne pišu svoje kvazi-teorije i stare propagande npr. da je Ruđer Bošković bio pravoslavac itd.. 
--Vatel (razgovor) 21:33, 11. travnja 2010. (CEST)
thread_title:  Sramota 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
Island i Engleska, čak i Korčula su stoljećima ranije to napravile tako da ne znam otkuda ova tvrdnja autoru.— Prethodni nepotpisani komentar  je 188.129.38.217 (razgovor • doprinosi) 19:43, 22. kolovoza 2014.
Wikipedija nije sama sebi izvor, tako da to što piše na en.wiki nije mjerodavno ako nema kvalitetne provjerljive izvore. Kubura (razgovor) 09:38, 25. kolovoza 2014. (CEST)
thread_title: Nije prvi ukinuo ropstvo