Discussion:Bataille de la Washita

message: Bonjour,
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▪ Eskimbot ☼ 21 janvier 2006 à 12:23 (CET)
thread_title: Lien externe mort

message: Sorry,my French isn't good enough:
- As per the supposed two captive white children having been released, it would be honest to add that nowhere their names were given. Nothing is written anywhere as to what would have happened to them before, during or after the attack . Greene just writes that Custer proclaimed this "inexplicably". The freed captives were -obviously- an invention. The false anouncement was subsequently swept under the rug. It is disingenuous to regurgiate this in an online encyclopedia. 
- As per how many  indians were killed: Custer also upped the figure later on to 140, quite out of the blue. Shouldn't this also be mentioned? 
- Concerning the lower figures, they were almost all given by Indians when interviewed later on. These claims are of course relevant, coming from the very people who suffered the losses. It is a grave omission not to include any of them.
- One exception to this is the letter of scout James S.Morrison to Ed Wynkoop on Dec. 14th 1868 in which Morrison states that three scouts came in, two of them having been present in the Washita fight. He states that they all agree that the official reports of the fight are "very much exaggerated; that there were not over twenty bucks killed; the rest, about forty, were women and children". Source: Hardorff, Washita Memories, p. 283. Your dismissive comment that it is known that someone making that claim was "pro Black Kettle" is not NPov.
- You claim without giving a source that according to Indian sources 18 women and children were killed. You probably mean Med Elk Pipe, Red Shin via George Bent/George Hyde in 1913. Another survivor interview Crow Neck, via George Bent/George Bird Grinnel from the following year, gives us 12 women and 5children (one child less); the earlier from1869 by Red Moon, Minimic, Gray Eyes, Little Robe (Cheyenne) via Vincent Colyer, Special Indian Commissioner gives us 16 women and 9 children (25 altogether). Other reports concentrate only on the killed men. There are five different Indian reports where the Indians giving the information are identified. They state between 11 and 15 killed men. None of these comes even close to Custer's 103 or even 140 claimed killed warriors. A balanced article, and that's what Wikipedia requires, would discuss this discrepancy.
- It is highly contested if Clara Blinn was even present in Black Kettle'scamp at the beginning of the attack. Custer himself claimed that she was in an upstream Kiowa camp when she was killed. It appears that this information was deliberately omitted to make the slaughtered Cheyennes look bad.
- The claim of "11war chiefs killed": This is based on a sensationalist sentence in one dispatch by journalist Deb. Randolph Keim to the New York Herald. He writes that the Cheyenne women gave him, through an interpreter "the following names:" He then lists 13 Cheyennes (including Black Kettle and Little Rock) , two Sioux and 1 Arapahoe. BTW, where does this newspaper clipping identify 11 war chiefs? It states 13 Cheyennes. So, who are then the war chiefs and who is not? The clipping doesn't make any such distinctions. What about the two Sioux and the one Arapahoe? War Chiefs as well? 16 war Chiefs in a camp of 51 lodges that belonged to Black Kettle's peace faction? This is completely untenable.
-The morally charged question about battle/massacre is dealt with by giving onlythe exonerating opinions.There are many other who view this surprise attack which probably killed more women and children than men a massacre. 
- The allusion to Black Kettle's alleged "guilt" of remote-controlling warriors from various camps in the preceding summer is another non-neutral exercise in taking sides, made by the same author who once again quotes himself. At least he doesn't quote his own internet comments where he called Black Kettle the Yassir Arafat or Osama Bin Laden of the Plains... This article needs a lot of work to meet Wikipedia quality standards.
User:Lookoo
: Completement d'acord, il y a beaucoup (trop de) points non neutres dans cet article. Ottis Shah (d) 20 janvier 2013 à 15:43 (CET)
thread_title: Points of Critique