بحث:آنو

message: سلام، امیدوارم خوب باشید. برای هر وقت که تونستید: اگر موافقت اصولی دارید، با هم خوبش کنیم. Worship و Family با شما؛ Mythology و Later influence با من. RousouR (بحث) ‏۲۷ دسامبر ۲۰۲۱، ساعت ۱۵:۱۹ (UTC)
replies: text: سلام. حتما. هرچند که باز هم زمان معینی برای اینکه کی امکان ترجمه خواهم داشت نمی‌توانم بدهم اما با تقسیم‌بندی که کردی موافق هستم.^^^^ (بحث) ‏۲۸ دسامبر ۲۰۲۱، ساعت ۲۱:۱۸ (UTC)
replies: text: : سلام، نمی‌خواستم اینقدر طول بکشه. اومدم آنو رو یه روزه تموم کنم (روش به اندازه کافی کار شده بود (اینجا))، دیدم تغییر کرده (پس از این بحث: :en:User talk:Katolophyromai#The credibility of Joshua J. Mark) و محدود به آنو نخواهد ماند. RousouR (بحث) ‏۲۱ ژوئن ۲۰۲۲، ساعت ۱۱:۴۲ (UTC)

text: :* مشکلات انلیل و آنو پیش از بازنویسی + گفتگو + پاسخ نویسنده اصلی مقاله به بازنویسی مقاله:
* The Enlil article is a pretty bad example of this issue, between the use of studies primarily focused on Greek mythology (a recurring problem - Mesopotamian mythology as nothing but an exotic addition to Greece) making fanciful claims about Enlil, Marduk and Dumuzi , a book whose author seems unaware iconography of Mesopotamian deities is more than just kudurru symbols (shall we also claim Inanna was never depicted in antropomorphic form because she's a star in a circle on kudurru, like how Enlil is a horned crown?). The complete lack of topics which for the past 40 years dominated Enlil scholarship - etymology debacles, the "Enlil theogony" from god lists and incantations, the connections between Enlil, Dagan (not "Canaanite" like the article claims least we want to argue that Canaan stretches all the way up to modern Syria-Iraq border, since Dagan was worshiped deep inland, not on the coast) and Kumarbi, "Enlil" as a title rather than a deity (Lambert used the rather funny neologism "Enlilship" as a translation of related Sumerian and Akkadian terms). I should point out that in this case information sourced from Mark's publications is utterly baffling - who were the people smashing the statues of Enlil after the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, and where did they live? Assur was not actually introduced to Babylonia on any meaningful scale, and Enlil remained the head of the pantheon in many cities, if anything it would be Marduk who was unpopular, especially in Uruk (where he was ejected from the top of the pantheon after the fall of the Neo-Babylonian Empire), and possibly in Nippur and Der as well. I won't even comment on Ninlil barely factoring into the article despite being an integral element of Mesopotamian religion (I did fix her article recently but I feel like this should have been done back to back with Enlil's... same goes for Gula and Ninurta). Also, referring to something from 1961 as "current" interpretation strikes me as well beyond inappropriate.
* The Anu article is similarly troublesome. Kramer's "seven gods who decree" with a permanent membership belong in the 1960s - how do you reconcile this idea with local pantheon of Umma (Shara, Ninura and Inanna-Zabalam on top) or Lagash (Ningirsu, Bau, Nanshe on top) in the core area of Sumerian culture, let alone with pantheons of the periphery like Der or Eshnunna? How about the mix and match approach in inscriptions of Naram-Sin where Dagan appears with Enlil and Ninhursag, or on their imitations from Susa with Inshushinak among the "great gods?" How do Ishtaran and Nisaba fit into this image of Mesopotamian religion - they are pretty clearly major in the Early Dynastic period already...? How about Nuska and Ninshubur being pretty often listed among the "great gods"? Claims about the Eanna in the article are presented as consensus when in reality Beaulieu's Uruk monograph devotes multiple pages to various argument in favor and against the presented view. Identification of Anu with El seems like a complete and utter misunderstanding too - the dingir sign could be read as ilu, but "ilu" as an element of names is a generic, unspecified god (a topic discussed ex. by Alfonso Archi wrt the Ebla texts), not the Ugaritic El (who is firmly identified as analogous to Enlil in primary sources, ex. Ugaritic trilingual god list). Completely glossing over the lists of ancestors of Anu from An = Anum and other sources is a rather odd decision too considering that's where Enuma Elish got everyone but Apsu and Tiamat from. Nemet-Nejat does not make the claim about Antu and milk the article does, also, not do any of the detailed studies of Antu from authors such as Beaulieu or Julia Krul. An elephant in the room is the fact that not even once does the article mention that Anu was not really an object of any personal worship prior to the Seleucid period reform in Uruk - considering this is arguably what most publications about Anu from within last 40 years focus on this seems like an enormous oversight. Also, the Kumarbi cycle is a Hittite adaptation or translation of a Hurrian myth, not a Hittite myth in the strict sense. The sources used completely misquote the myth (the "old gods" - or rather "former gods" - are on Kumarbi's side, not Anu's. As summarized by many authors, for example Hoffner, the myth has a clear underworld and sea vs. earth and sky theme). Too much focus is placed on indirect Greek parallels which I personally think is inexcusable - Mesopotamia should be more than just a quirky demo version of Greece, and that's roughly what prioritizing compilations of comparative mythology essays over research on religion and politics of Mesopotamia in articles about Mesopotamia leads to. The authors in this section seem to be decades behind with material pertaining to the Ancient Near East, which tbf is par the course for classicists, I've seen a work from this field published within past 5 years recommend a publication from 1960 on Nanaya when the study which is the basis of her modern understanding was only published in 1997...
* I'm replying so late because I focused my free time on rewriting the en:Anu article almost entirely this week, leaving only the mythology section for the future (there are probably details one could add here and there but I think enough is enough). It revealed a few small problems in the process (Belili's career as an eternal redirect comes to mind, I think this was a problem from long before either of us started working on wikipedia articles though, well over a decade ago a fair number of redirects which were in reality separate deities were created, I keep stumbling into examples often - en:Aštabi and en:Ninkarrak come to mind as major examples) but that's beside the point. It's mostly meant to be an example of the level I'd like to aim at with upcoming rewrites of articles we've discussed - I plan to tackle Utu and Geshtinanna (and, while at it, Belili as well) next.
* To clear up a misunderstanding: I am not opposed to showing influence of Mesopotamia on Greece. I take issue with two things, though: first, Greek examples of Mesopotamian influence seem to take precedence over cultures within the core sphere of Mesopotamian cultural influence, like various Hurrian and Syrian states and "statelets," which, in my opinion, reduces history just to succession of "major" cultures. My second issue is that the primary authors dealing with this topic from the side of ancient Greece are not particularly rigorous in their study of Mesopotamia, exclusively pick from a small "canon" of texts relevant due to being translated early. I would personally count "the myth of Athena's birth was derived from Inanna's Descent" as a particularly grotesque example, there is a pretty close analog in the Kumarbi cycle instead which never gained steam in this field as far as I am aware (granted, most comparative studies are 40 years behind with Kumarbi translations which is a problem in itself).
* Your rewrite of the article en:Anu looks absolutely awesome from what I can tell, but, as we've seen, I have maybe less of a purview to comment on these things than I once thought.
* You make an incisive point regarding comparative studies between Mesopotamia and Greece. I can't really argue with what you've said.
RousouR (بحث) ‏۲۹ ژوئن ۲۰۲۲، ساعت ۱۴:۱۵ (UTC)

text: :  امیدوارم خوب و سلامت باشید. RousouR (بحث) ‏۲۳ سپتامبر ۲۰۲۲، ساعت ۰۹:۰۷ (UTC)
replies: text: :: سلام  عزیز. من خوبم. امیدوارم که تو هم خوب و سلامت باشی. متاسفم که خیلی فعال نیستم. از وقت خیلی کم میاد که امیدوارم درست بشه و هرچقدر هم که کم، فعال باشم. سرزنده و خوشحال باشی. ^^^^ (بحث) ‏۲۷ سپتامبر ۲۰۲۲، ساعت ۰۸:۱۵ (UTC)
replies: text: ::: سلام Farzan عزیز. خوشحالم و ممنون. نظرتان درباره لینک بالا چیست؟ منتظر بودم دامنه بازنویسی به انلیل، گیلگمش، اینانا و ... هم بکشد. تغییراتی کردند با هماهنگی هر دو نفر ولی به جای بازنویسی اتفاق مهم دیگری افتاد که با پیگیری ویرایش‌های بازنویسی‌کننده بهتر با آن آشنا خواهید شد. RousouR (بحث) ‏۲۸ سپتامبر ۲۰۲۲، ساعت ۰۹:۵۹ (UTC)
امیدوارم خوب باشید. آنو را برای گمخ آماده می‌کنم. هر موقع تونستید یک سری به این بزنید. RousouR (بحث) ‏۱۵ فوریهٔ ۲۰۲۳، ساعت ۱۴:۲۱ (UTC)
thread_title:  همکاری دوم 

message: مطالب گردآوری شده به، پس از ایجاد کوماربی، به بحث:کوماربی#آفرینش هیتی در چرخه کوماربی انتقال یافت.
RousouR (بحث) ‏۲۴ آوریل ۲۰۲۳، ساعت ۱۱:۳۹ (UTC)
thread_title:  روایت ه