Arutelu:IMMAGINE&POESIA

message: Itaalia vikis on rühmitise nimi [[Immagine & poesia]]. [[Kasutaja:Andres|Andres]] 22. jaanuar 2011, kell 21:54 (EET)
Siia ei viita midagi. [[Kasutaja:Andres|Andres]] 22. jaanuar 2011, kell 21:55 (EET)
Artikkel vajab sisulist toimetamist. Tuleb kontrollida, kas kõik välislingid on olemas ja asjakohased ning kas nad on piisavalt netraalsed, et neid üldse vikipeedias hoida võiks. Tõenäoliselt leiab välislinkidest artikli sisule täiendust. [[Kasutaja:Taivo|Taivo]] 2. detsember 2011, kell 17:36 (EET)
Artikkel on kustutatud nii prantsuse kui itaalia vikist ja paar päeva tagasi ka inglise vikist, üheks põhjuseks lisaks vähetuntusele ka ''cross-wiki spam'' ehk siis selle sokutamine erikeelsetesse vikidesse. Samas ma arvan, et eestikeelsest ei ole seda siiski mõtet kustutada.--[[Kasutaja:Morel|Morel]] 3. veebruar 2012, kell 01:48 (EET)

message: Minu arvates on liikumine ja rühmitus erinevad asjad või ma eksin? Kumb see siin on? Adeliine 28. jaanuar 2013, kell 18:26 (EET)
replies: text: arvamine ei maksa midagi, ehkki sageli esimene samm konstruktiivsete lahendusteni. EKSSi definitsioon "liikumisele" on "teat. eesmärke taotlev aatesuund ning selle nimel tegutsemine"; rühmitus (rühmitis) = ühistel eesmärkidel tegutsev (väiksem) rühm v. koondis (EKSS).--Bioneer1 (arutelu) 29. jaanuar 2013, kell 23:26 (EET)
replies: text: :Põgusal analüüsil ma neid kahte terminit antud definitsioonide abil eristada ei suudaks--Bioneer1 (arutelu) 29. jaanuar 2013, kell 23:26 (EET)

message: Minu meelest meie ei pea kustutama lihtsalt selle pärast, et teised vikid kustutavad või et keegi kirjutab samal teemal paljudesse vikidesse. --Epp 30. märts 2016, kell 21:44 (EEST)
replies: text: Nõus, artikkel on viidatud ja välislingid asjassepuutuvad. Ja erinevalt teistest programmiliselt (firma esindaja poolt) loodud artiklitest pole see ka reklaam. Lisaks pole võltsitud pilt - niipalju kui ma ajalugu sirvisin - meie artiklis olnud. - Melilac (arutelu) 31. märts 2016, kell 19:33 (EEST)

message: This article is part of a cross-wiki campaign to promote the movement. The article is already deleted on english, french, german, swedish, norwegian and even on the italian (!) wiki, and is discussed other places as well. 
Most part of the campaign is performed by only 3 users - who hasn't written about many other things on Wikipedia: 
* Angler45, 
* Alessandroga80 and 
* Aeron10
Please also note that this picture, that is a part of the cross wiki campaign is a hoax; photoshopped to give the impression that two representatives from I&P met the known poet Ferlinghetti. See :commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Ferlinghetti meets Immagine&Poesia representatives.jpg, and ask Angler45 for an explanation. Bw --Orland (arutelu) 12. märts 2016, kell 14:09 (EET)
===Should be kept===
Never seen such a cross-wiki-attack coming from 2 Users: K9re11 and Orland. Since 2011 the article has been on Wikipedia. The meeting with poet Ferlinghetti was real and arranged by his spokesman Garrett Caples and was also documented in Italian newspaper La Stampa [] The photo is not a hoax, but a photoshop improvement of the original photo that was not professional enough for uploading on wiki as Angler45 explained.
The page is not promotional as it only tells the story of the Movement. When it was deleted on some of the mentioned wikis a book about the Movement was not published yet--Oberon12 (arutelu) 15. märts 2016, kell 09:20 (EET)
replies: text: :Please note that  is an almost fresh user, woken from 3-4 years of slumber, only to engage in this discussions. This must be understood as if the four previous contributors engaged in this article worldwide (Angler45, Alessandroga80, Aeron10 and RiverTeifi) are burned as Single Purpose Accounts.
replies: text: :If there really was a "original photo that was not professional enough", the easiest thing in the world would be to provide this picture now. Please do.

text: :I do not read italian, but according to google translate, the article in La Stampa describes a meeting between only Chiarelli and Ferlinghetti, with no mention of the "movement" we are discussing here. Wheether Chiarelli and some other italian person really met Ferlinghetti i 2013 does not establish notability for the movement as such. It is more interesting that  believed that this photo could be such an important evidence that he had to "improve" it.

text: :Within the Wikipedia system, the basic principle is that the contributors must provide reliable sources for their contributions. This has not been done in this case so far. The most remarkable thing about this, is not that questions are raised now, but that they haven't been asked before. If our concerns were false, and the arguments and sources of the defenders were good enough, this article would have been kept as a good article. Instead, the number of articles have fallen from 69 languages to 29 in two weeks. That is not my work alone, that is a series of independent decisions by different administrators.

text: :Oberon12 tries to establish me as the problem (alternatively together with  - and yet forgetting swedish sysop  ) Such accusations is an old strategy, and I've met them before, in some of the other cross-wiki-spamming campaigns I've fighted. You can read about them on my en:wp user page: :en:User:Orland. I can't blame Oberon12 for not knowing that cross-wiki-spam is quite common on Wikipedia, but they are, and there are several of us trying to deal with it.

text: :There is no such thing as a "cross-wiki-attack" here, Oberon12. This is just good old administrator work to defend the credibility of Wikipedia from being used for promoting someones interests. Please stick to the matter: provide good sources. And; if you can't convince italian Wikipedia to keep an article about the movement, that is not a good token. Bw Orland (arutelu) 16. märts 2016, kell 00:44 (EET)
replies: text: ::@Orland.Congratulations for this amazing result!

text: ::With your help and propaganda, a page re Culture, Art and Poetry has been deleted in many wiki and will be in others. But what is worst, with the page you have also destroyed the message of Peace and cooperation among peoples of different cultures, a message in which artists and poets of the Movement had believed. Of course you don't care of how distressing this behaviour can be for these persons. All that matters is to apply a rigid law.

text: ::Next time before proposing the deletion of an article, please try to read and understand the content better. As to independent reliable sources, they have been added in the remaining wikis (articles from Poetry Reviews of different countries), according to your request another photo of the meeting with Ferlinghetti has been added (and now you have to say that there is not one photo only). What's more ?--Oberon12 (arutelu) 21. märts 2016, kell 08:25 (EET)
replies: text: ::: There is no good argument in playing hurt, or in accusing me for not beeing able to "read and understand". Do you really think that "the message of Peace and cooperation among peoples of different cultures" is depending upon this Wikipedia entry? Either you provide good sources that could convince all of us experienced users that are looking into this now, or you take the blame for trying to use Wikipedia for promoting your network. Bw --Orland (arutelu) 1. aprill 2016, kell 13:23 (EEST)
replies: text: ::::. I invite you to read carefully the page again, then tell us where you find sentences that can lead to think of a promotion of the Movement. Independent secondary sources have been added by Aeron10; different poetry reviews and newspapers (from the UK, Poland, South Korea, Tunisia, Montecarlo, just to say a few) have articles on Immagine & Poesia and I think they are good enough to comply Wikipedia rules. Also in Norway "Sarpsborg Arbeiderblad" published an article of an exhibition of paintings and poems organized in 2014 at Tune Bibliotek [2]. The journalist is CECILIE SOMMER-MATHIESEN

text: ::::redaksjonen@sa.no, you can ask her info about the Movement. As to the new photo, I don't know ... it might be photoshopped to get it better (are there any rules that forbid the use of Photoshop in Wikipedia ?), but this is not relevant: the meeting was reported in an Italian paper; the scanned page is here http://immagine.poesia.over-blog.it/pages/LAWRENCE_FERLINGHETTI_meets_LIDIA_CHIARELLI_in_San_Francisco-8776849.html

text: ::::Of course I agree that the meeting does not establish notability to the movementt, but maybe Aeronwy Thomas (who founded it in 2007) yes, she does. Regards--Oberon12 (arutelu) 4. aprill 2016, kell 08:11 (EEST)
replies: text: ::::: Promotion of the movement is not a discussion about certain words or sentences. It is a discussion about whether this movement is so important that it is worth mentioning. It is obviously in the interest of I&P to appear as a worldwide reknown movement. I've already read the piece you refer to in Sarpsborg Arbeiderblad. However; Sarpsborg public library is not a kind of gallery or institution that establishes notability for an art movement. Actually, I am about to perform a poetry reading in a public library myself 3 weeks from now, together with my father. We have a carefully selected repertoire of poets that forms a unity of "poems about the forests", and a philosophy behind it. But we would never come to think of our activity as an "art movement" that deserves metioning in 69 different languages of Wikipedia. That would be shameless vanity. Bw --Orland (arutelu) 4. aprill 2016, kell 09:43 (EEST)
replies: text: ::::::I&P appeared in many wikipedias as there are poets and artists from all those countries. It is a worldwide Movement. This is the truth, not shameless vanity, as you say. If Sarpsborg public library is not an institution that establishes notability, exhibitions were made in Dylan Thomas Centre in Swansea (Wales, UK) and Promotrice delle Belle Arti (Turin Italy): both of them are important, public cultural institutions.

text: ::::::Moreover in wikipedia there is section with the lists of translators available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Translators_available because Wikipedia is a multilingual project; as such, we may have articles on one subject available in many languages. Now I have to think that there is something misleading in this page: when some of us asked for translations, they were highly welcome and noone spoke of the danger of promotion that - on the contrary - you find in these translations. Best wishes for your poetry reading.--Oberon12 (arutelu) 4. aprill 2016, kell 14:35 (EEST)
replies: text: :::::::
replies: text: ::::::::We are so honored that one of the events organized by IMMAGINE & POESIA has been included in the international celebrations for #DylanDay http://www.llenyddiaethcymru.org/dylan-day-events/

text: ::::::::Turin, Italy-16 May - Tribute to Dylan Thomas- Conference on Dylan Thomas and his stay in Italy. See HERE  for more details.----Oberon12 (arutelu) 28. aprill 2016, kell 19:34 (EEST)
replies: text: :::::::::. I think it is great that you wish to promote the works of Dylan Thomas, but do you seriously consider that list as a recocnition of your significance and notability in Wikipedia's terms? Do you think that any contributions to that list were ommited as "not significant enough"? With all respect; --Orland (arutelu) 30. aprill 2016, kell 17:57 (EEST)

text: ::::::::: Yes I seriously think that the Movement's contribution accepted in the official celebrations of #DylanDay organized by Literature Wales is a recognition (one of the many recognitions) of our significance and notability in Wikipedia's terms. I am also sure that now you understand that this global persecution has been a big mistake in your career on wikipedia and you don't know how to withdraw: Immagine&Poesia is a worldwide Movement founded by Aeronwy Thomas and supported by Lawrence Ferlinghetti, worth to appear in many Wikipedias as Wikipedia is a multilingual project with a list of translators available--Oberon12 (arutelu) 2. mai 2016, kell 08:17 (EEST)
Ma pöörasin tagasi muudatuse, millega viitelisamismallid ära võeti. Üks foto läks ka sellega kaduma, ma ei pööranud sellele tähelepanu. Andres (arutelu) 3. mai 2016, kell 22:05 (EEST)

text: Mis puudutab kadumaläinud fotot, siis selle ehtsus on commonsis kahtluse alla seatud, vt  ja .--90.191.96.36 4. mai 2016, kell 09:20 (EEST)
replies: text: ::At last one thing is clear: the page has been vandalised for almost 2 months, now also by anonymous users: info and photos continually deleted. The photos were not a hoax but photoshop improvements commonly used on Wikipedias. The Movement is worldwide known and artists from Estonia have done their contributions. It is a pity to destroy a page with such a cultural background of Art and Poetry. It is not promotional, it tells the story of the Movement since its inception. --Alessandroga80 (arutelu) 4. mai 2016, kell 18:42 (EEST)
replies: text: ::: Is adding citation requests vandalising? Accusing other users doesn't advance your case. The Estonian Wikipedia is one of the few Wikipedias not willing to delete the article. Why are you insulting us? Andres (arutelu) 4. mai 2016, kell 19:49 (EEST)
replies: text: ::: @Andres. Hi Andres. Sorry for this misunderstanding, but I am not insulting anybody: I simply referred to what has been happening on several wikipedias for 2 months: 2 users have been putting a "delete" templete everywhere, saying the page was promotional and this is not true, it simply tells the story of this art-literary movement that is worldwide known, it was started by Dylan Thomas' daughter (British writer Aeronwy Thomas) and it is much appreciated by Beat Generation poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti (who regularly sends his poems for the Movement's projects). You can well understand how this unfair persecution is exasperating.

text: :::As to citations, they were already there at the end of the introduction: now they are better arranged, at the end of each line. I hope they are fine this way. Thanks--Alessandroga80 (arutelu) 5. mai 2016, kell 06:47 (EEST)
replies: text: :::::Please just have a look at the Anthology of IMMAGINE & POESIA (2016 edition) and see how the Movement works : you will find 60 contributions from Poets and Artists of 34 countries of the 5 continents, all working for the love of Beauty and Peace--Aeron10 (arutelu) 16. mai 2016, kell 16:25 (EEST)
thread_title:  Should be deleted 

message: Never seen such a cross-wiki-attack coming from 2 Users: K9re11 and Orland. Since 2011 the article has been on Wikipedia. The meeting with poet Ferlinghetti was real and arranged by his spokesman Garrett Caples and was also documented in Italian newspaper La Stampa [] The photo is not a hoax, but a photoshop improvement of the original photo that was not professional enough for uploading on wiki as Angler45 explained.
The page is not promotional as it only tells the story of the Movement. When it was deleted on some of the mentioned wikis a book about the Movement was not published yet--Oberon12 (arutelu) 15. märts 2016, kell 09:20 (EET)
replies: text: :Please note that  is an almost fresh user, woken from 3-4 years of slumber, only to engage in this discussions. This must be understood as if the four previous contributors engaged in this article worldwide (Angler45, Alessandroga80, Aeron10 and RiverTeifi) are burned as Single Purpose Accounts.
replies: text: :If there really was a "original photo that was not professional enough", the easiest thing in the world would be to provide this picture now. Please do.

text: :I do not read italian, but according to google translate, the article in La Stampa describes a meeting between only Chiarelli and Ferlinghetti, with no mention of the "movement" we are discussing here. Wheether Chiarelli and some other italian person really met Ferlinghetti i 2013 does not establish notability for the movement as such. It is more interesting that  believed that this photo could be such an important evidence that he had to "improve" it.

text: :Within the Wikipedia system, the basic principle is that the contributors must provide reliable sources for their contributions. This has not been done in this case so far. The most remarkable thing about this, is not that questions are raised now, but that they haven't been asked before. If our concerns were false, and the arguments and sources of the defenders were good enough, this article would have been kept as a good article. Instead, the number of articles have fallen from 69 languages to 29 in two weeks. That is not my work alone, that is a series of independent decisions by different administrators.

text: :Oberon12 tries to establish me as the problem (alternatively together with  - and yet forgetting swedish sysop  ) Such accusations is an old strategy, and I've met them before, in some of the other cross-wiki-spamming campaigns I've fighted. You can read about them on my en:wp user page: :en:User:Orland. I can't blame Oberon12 for not knowing that cross-wiki-spam is quite common on Wikipedia, but they are, and there are several of us trying to deal with it.

text: :There is no such thing as a "cross-wiki-attack" here, Oberon12. This is just good old administrator work to defend the credibility of Wikipedia from being used for promoting someones interests. Please stick to the matter: provide good sources. And; if you can't convince italian Wikipedia to keep an article about the movement, that is not a good token. Bw Orland (arutelu) 16. märts 2016, kell 00:44 (EET)
replies: text: ::@Orland.Congratulations for this amazing result!

text: ::With your help and propaganda, a page re Culture, Art and Poetry has been deleted in many wiki and will be in others. But what is worst, with the page you have also destroyed the message of Peace and cooperation among peoples of different cultures, a message in which artists and poets of the Movement had believed. Of course you don't care of how distressing this behaviour can be for these persons. All that matters is to apply a rigid law.

text: ::Next time before proposing the deletion of an article, please try to read and understand the content better. As to independent reliable sources, they have been added in the remaining wikis (articles from Poetry Reviews of different countries), according to your request another photo of the meeting with Ferlinghetti has been added (and now you have to say that there is not one photo only). What's more ?--Oberon12 (arutelu) 21. märts 2016, kell 08:25 (EET)
replies: text: ::: There is no good argument in playing hurt, or in accusing me for not beeing able to "read and understand". Do you really think that "the message of Peace and cooperation among peoples of different cultures" is depending upon this Wikipedia entry? Either you provide good sources that could convince all of us experienced users that are looking into this now, or you take the blame for trying to use Wikipedia for promoting your network. Bw --Orland (arutelu) 1. aprill 2016, kell 13:23 (EEST)
replies: text: ::::. I invite you to read carefully the page again, then tell us where you find sentences that can lead to think of a promotion of the Movement. Independent secondary sources have been added by Aeron10; different poetry reviews and newspapers (from the UK, Poland, South Korea, Tunisia, Montecarlo, just to say a few) have articles on Immagine & Poesia and I think they are good enough to comply Wikipedia rules. Also in Norway "Sarpsborg Arbeiderblad" published an article of an exhibition of paintings and poems organized in 2014 at Tune Bibliotek [2]. The journalist is CECILIE SOMMER-MATHIESEN

text: ::::redaksjonen@sa.no, you can ask her info about the Movement. As to the new photo, I don't know ... it might be photoshopped to get it better (are there any rules that forbid the use of Photoshop in Wikipedia ?), but this is not relevant: the meeting was reported in an Italian paper; the scanned page is here http://immagine.poesia.over-blog.it/pages/LAWRENCE_FERLINGHETTI_meets_LIDIA_CHIARELLI_in_San_Francisco-8776849.html

text: ::::Of course I agree that the meeting does not establish notability to the movementt, but maybe Aeronwy Thomas (who founded it in 2007) yes, she does. Regards--Oberon12 (arutelu) 4. aprill 2016, kell 08:11 (EEST)
replies: text: ::::: Promotion of the movement is not a discussion about certain words or sentences. It is a discussion about whether this movement is so important that it is worth mentioning. It is obviously in the interest of I&P to appear as a worldwide reknown movement. I've already read the piece you refer to in Sarpsborg Arbeiderblad. However; Sarpsborg public library is not a kind of gallery or institution that establishes notability for an art movement. Actually, I am about to perform a poetry reading in a public library myself 3 weeks from now, together with my father. We have a carefully selected repertoire of poets that forms a unity of "poems about the forests", and a philosophy behind it. But we would never come to think of our activity as an "art movement" that deserves metioning in 69 different languages of Wikipedia. That would be shameless vanity. Bw --Orland (arutelu) 4. aprill 2016, kell 09:43 (EEST)
replies: text: ::::::I&P appeared in many wikipedias as there are poets and artists from all those countries. It is a worldwide Movement. This is the truth, not shameless vanity, as you say. If Sarpsborg public library is not an institution that establishes notability, exhibitions were made in Dylan Thomas Centre in Swansea (Wales, UK) and Promotrice delle Belle Arti (Turin Italy): both of them are important, public cultural institutions.

text: ::::::Moreover in wikipedia there is section with the lists of translators available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Translators_available because Wikipedia is a multilingual project; as such, we may have articles on one subject available in many languages. Now I have to think that there is something misleading in this page: when some of us asked for translations, they were highly welcome and noone spoke of the danger of promotion that - on the contrary - you find in these translations. Best wishes for your poetry reading.--Oberon12 (arutelu) 4. aprill 2016, kell 14:35 (EEST)
replies: text: :::::::
replies: text: ::::::::We are so honored that one of the events organized by IMMAGINE & POESIA has been included in the international celebrations for #DylanDay http://www.llenyddiaethcymru.org/dylan-day-events/

text: ::::::::Turin, Italy-16 May - Tribute to Dylan Thomas- Conference on Dylan Thomas and his stay in Italy. See HERE  for more details.----Oberon12 (arutelu) 28. aprill 2016, kell 19:34 (EEST)
replies: text: :::::::::. I think it is great that you wish to promote the works of Dylan Thomas, but do you seriously consider that list as a recocnition of your significance and notability in Wikipedia's terms? Do you think that any contributions to that list were ommited as "not significant enough"? With all respect; --Orland (arutelu) 30. aprill 2016, kell 17:57 (EEST)

text: ::::::::: Yes I seriously think that the Movement's contribution accepted in the official celebrations of #DylanDay organized by Literature Wales is a recognition (one of the many recognitions) of our significance and notability in Wikipedia's terms. I am also sure that now you understand that this global persecution has been a big mistake in your career on wikipedia and you don't know how to withdraw: Immagine&Poesia is a worldwide Movement founded by Aeronwy Thomas and supported by Lawrence Ferlinghetti, worth to appear in many Wikipedias as Wikipedia is a multilingual project with a list of translators available--Oberon12 (arutelu) 2. mai 2016, kell 08:17 (EEST)
Ma pöörasin tagasi muudatuse, millega viitelisamismallid ära võeti. Üks foto läks ka sellega kaduma, ma ei pööranud sellele tähelepanu. Andres (arutelu) 3. mai 2016, kell 22:05 (EEST)

text: Mis puudutab kadumaläinud fotot, siis selle ehtsus on commonsis kahtluse alla seatud, vt  ja .--90.191.96.36 4. mai 2016, kell 09:20 (EEST)
replies: text: ::At last one thing is clear: the page has been vandalised for almost 2 months, now also by anonymous users: info and photos continually deleted. The photos were not a hoax but photoshop improvements commonly used on Wikipedias. The Movement is worldwide known and artists from Estonia have done their contributions. It is a pity to destroy a page with such a cultural background of Art and Poetry. It is not promotional, it tells the story of the Movement since its inception. --Alessandroga80 (arutelu) 4. mai 2016, kell 18:42 (EEST)
replies: text: ::: Is adding citation requests vandalising? Accusing other users doesn't advance your case. The Estonian Wikipedia is one of the few Wikipedias not willing to delete the article. Why are you insulting us? Andres (arutelu) 4. mai 2016, kell 19:49 (EEST)
replies: text: ::: @Andres. Hi Andres. Sorry for this misunderstanding, but I am not insulting anybody: I simply referred to what has been happening on several wikipedias for 2 months: 2 users have been putting a "delete" templete everywhere, saying the page was promotional and this is not true, it simply tells the story of this art-literary movement that is worldwide known, it was started by Dylan Thomas' daughter (British writer Aeronwy Thomas) and it is much appreciated by Beat Generation poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti (who regularly sends his poems for the Movement's projects). You can well understand how this unfair persecution is exasperating.

text: :::As to citations, they were already there at the end of the introduction: now they are better arranged, at the end of each line. I hope they are fine this way. Thanks--Alessandroga80 (arutelu) 5. mai 2016, kell 06:47 (EEST)
replies: text: :::::Please just have a look at the Anthology of IMMAGINE & POESIA (2016 edition) and see how the Movement works : you will find 60 contributions from Poets and Artists of 34 countries of the 5 continents, all working for the love of Beauty and Peace--Aeron10 (arutelu) 16. mai 2016, kell 16:25 (EEST)
thread_title: Should be kept