Diskussion:Tomoe Gozen

message: Einfach nur Literatur reinzuklatschen, ersetzt die Erfüllung von WP:QA nicht. Mir fehlt insbesondere zur Substitution dieser beiden Richtlinien das nötige WP:AGF, wenn der Einsteller der Literatur im Edit-Kommentar angibt: „Literatur und Weblink nachgetragen - damit sollten ausreichende Quellen vorliegen (ENs kann nur der Autor einfügen)“ – Stichwörter „sollten“ (tun sie’s nun oder tun sie’s nicht?) und „ENs kann nur der Autor einfügen“ (ENs kann jeder einfügen, der nach eigener Lektüre darüber Bescheid weiß, ob bzw. dass Literatur bzw. Weblinks überhaupt als Beleg taugen. --Asthma 06:42, 13. Dez. 2007 (CET)
thread_title:  Von wegen Belege 

message: Diesen Aspekt habe ich herausgenommen, da dass belegt werden müsste. Die wenigen Seiten die ich dazu gefunden habe, scheinen das auch nur aus der englischen WP abgeschrieben zu haben bzw. schienen nicht sehr verlässlich. --Mps 16:58, 27. Dez. 2007 (CET)
thread_title:  Flusskami 

message: Diesen Aspekt habe ich herausgenonmmen, da es im Heike Monogatari nicht erwähnt wird. Es wird einfach gesagt "Tomoe aus Shinano" es gibt keine Beweise. Die Lektüre Heike Monogatari sollte man halt schon auch mal lesen, wenn man etwas über Tomoe Gozen wissen will, da sie nur darin auftritt. Man sollte nicht einfach nur falsche Informationen von englischen Seiten kopieren. 
: Die Verwandschaftsbeziehungen stehen aber nun mal nicht im Heike Monogatari, sondern im Gempei Seisuiki (). --Mps 11:49, 29. Jan. 2008 (CET)
thread_title:  Familienherkunft 

message: Hab ich rausgenommen, da das NIEMALS gesagt wurde. Tomoe kam NUR aus Shinano und war eine Angestellte wie Yamabuki und Aoi und ursprünglich nicht schön. Sie war keine Prostituierte. Und es gibt KEINE Ausgabe vom Heike Monogatari in dem Tomoe eine Beziehung mit Yoshinaka hat. Es wurde auch NIEMALS erwähnt, dass sie die Tochter von Nakahara Kaneto ist. Wir sollten uns schon ans Heike Monoagatari halten, da es die einzige Aufzeichnung über Tomoe ist, die zu 90% eh schon fiktionell ist. Hier die Beschreibung von Tomoe im Heike Monogatari (neuste Version), damit ihr mal das Original seht und nicht nur vom Internet kopiert:
Lord Kiso had brought with him from SHINANO two women ATTENDANTS, Tomoe and Yamabuki. Yamabuki had remained in the capital because of illness. Of these two, Tomoe, fair complexioned and with long hair, was of exceptional beauty. As a fighter she was a match for a thousand odinary men, skilled in arms, able to bend the stoutest bow, on horseback or on foot, ever ready with her sword to confront any devil or god that came her way. She could manage the most unruly horse and gallop down the steepest slopes. Lord Kiso sent her into battle clad in finely meshed armor and equipped with a sword of unusual size and a powerful bow, depending on her to perform as one of his leading commanders. Again and again she emerged unrivaled in feats and valor. And this time too, even though so many of Lord Kiso's other riders had fled from his side or been struck down, Tomoe was among the six who remained with him.
Im Gegenteil: Er sagt Tomoe, dass sie abhauen soll.
Tomoe still uninjured, was among the five. Lord Kiso turned to her. "Hurry, hurry now! You are a woman- go away anywhere you like!" he said. "I intend to die in the fighting. And if it looks as though I'm about to be captured, I'll take my own life. But I wouldn't want it said that Lord Kiso fought his last battle in the company of a woman!" But Tomoe didn't move. When Lord Kiso continued to press her, she thought to herself, "Ah! If only I had a worthy opponent so I could show him one last time what I can do in battle!" While she was hesitating, they encountered thirty horsemen under the command of Onda no Moroshige, a warrior of the province of Musashi who was renowned for his strength. Tomoe charged into the midst of Onda's men, drew her horse up beside his, and abruptly dragging him from his seat, pressed his head against the pommel of the saddle. After holding him motionless for a moment, she wrenched off his head and threw it away. Then she threw off her helmet and armor and fled somewhere in the direction of the eastern provinces.
Yoshinaka liebt im übrigen seinen Diener Imai Kanehira (ihre Beziehung geht im Heike Monogatari und im Nohstück "Kanehira" von Zeami Motokiyo weit über Freundschaft hinaus steht sogar auf der Seite von der ihr immer kopiert) mit dem er letztendlich auch stirbt:
While still some distance apart, Lord Kiso and Imai recognized each other and spurred their horses forward in anticipation of the meeting. Seizing Imai's hand, Lord Kiso exclaimed: "I had intended to die in the fighting in the riverbed at Rokujo, but I wanted so much to find out what had become of you. That's why I dodged my way through all those enemy troops and slipped off so I could come here!" "Your words do me great honor." replied Imai. "I, too, had fully expected to die in the encounter at Seta, but I hastened here in hopes of finding out how you were faring." "The bonds that link us have not come to an end yet!" said Lord Kiso.
Es geht noch weiter:
Only two men, Lord Kiso and Imai remained. "Up until now I never gave a thought about my armor, but today it seems strangely heavy!" said Lord Kiso. "You can't be tired yet, my lord," said Imai," and your horse is in good shape. A few pound of choice armor could not weigh on you that heavily. It's just that your spirits are flagging because we have so few men left. You still have me, though, and you should think of me as a thousand men. I still have seven or eight arrows, and I'll use them to keep the enemy at bay. Those trees you see there in the distance are the pine groves of Awazu. Go over among these trees and make an end of things!" As they spurred their horses onward, they spied a new group of some fifty mounted warriors heading towards them. "Hurry over to that groves of pines! I will hold off these men!" he repeated. "I ought to have died in the fighting in the capital." said Lord Kiso. "But I have come this far because I wanted to die with you. Rather than dying one here and the other there, it's better that we die together!" When Lord Kiso insisted on galloping at his side, Imai leaped to the ground, seized the bit of Lord Kiso's horse and declared. "No matter how fine a name a warrior might make for himself at most times, if he should slip up at the last, it could mean an everlasting blot on his honor. You are tired and we have no more men to fight with us. Suppose we become separated in combat and you are surrounded and cut down by a mere retainer, a person of no worth at all! How terrible if people were to say, "Lord Kiso, famous throughout the whole of Japan- done in by so-and-so's retainer!" You must hurry to that grove of pines!" "If it must be-" said Lord Kiso, and he turned his horse in the direction of the Awazu pines.
Kanehira ist sogar indirekt der Grund warum Yoshinaka stirbt:
Meanwhile, Lord Kiso galloped off alone towards the Awazu pine grove. It was the twenty-first day of the first lunar month, and evening was approaching. The winter rice paddies were covered with a thin layer of ice, and Lord Kiso, unaware of how deep the water was, allowed his horse to stumble into one of them. In no time the horse had sunk into the mud until its head could not be seen. He dug in with his stirrups again and again, laid on lash after lash with his whip, but could not get the animal to move. Wondering what had become of Imai, he turned to look behind him, when one of the enemy riders who had been pursuing him, Ishida Tamehisa of Miura, drew his bow far back and shot an arrow that pierced the area of Lord Kiso's face unprotected by his helmet. Mortally wounded, he slumped forward, the bowl of his helmet resting on the horse's head whereupon two of Ishida's retainers fell on him and cut off his head.
Zum Nohstück:
A play such as Kanehira, based on characters and incidents drawn from The Tale of the Heike from the 13th century, helped to maintain a myth of the nobility of the warrior class and might have been a staple of regular performances for the pleasure of the Edo shoguns, for example. Because of the time lag between the active roles of the Minamoto warriors in the 12th century historical narrative and the mostly unemployed and idle samurai class in Edo and Osaka of the time, Yoshinaka and his friend Imai Kanehira, in the play male lovers who promised to die together, might have been an entertaining ideal state of Bushido, a state of mind enacted on the battlefield, but kept as an emotional modus operandi when the sword was laid down. Kanehira in performance restores the ideal of the strong warrior, and reinforces the prevalence of sympathy for the fallen hero among Japanese audiences. Both Kiso and Kanehira are from the winning side in the war, but choose a form of liebestod, a love death, rather than commit suicide in the face of the enemy. Kanehira continues to appeal in performace to this day, despite the same sex vows the two men take before their deaths.
Kanehira, though clearly written in the time of Zeami, is perhaps most representative of the type of play appreciated by Edo audiences, even though the ending is shocking. Two men committing love suicide on the battlefield seems remote indeed from the more pressing concern of urban suicide, seppuku, ordered and honored by the shogunal government. There is a choice in the romance of Kanehira and Yoshinaka, while none in most sanctioned seppuku during the Edo era.
Background of the Story: As with most of the warrior plays, type 2, in the Noh repertoire, the characters are drawn from incidents in The Tale of the Heike (Heike monogatari- 13th c.). The play Kanehira concerns the battlefield deaths of both Minamoto Yoshinaka (Kiso no Yoshinaka as he is usually referred to) and his friend Imai Kanehira in 1184, during the winter, in one of the final battles of the war between the Minamoto and Taira families that brought an end to the Heian era and the beginnings of a new shogunal government in Kamakura. Though both Yoshinaka and Kanehira were on the winning side, they were attacked at Awadzu (modern Otsu) and brought down. They were attached emotionally through their bond as children who suckled at the breasts of the same wet nurse; thus, more than mere warriors, they were brothers in gi 義or military prowess and responsibility to the forces of the Minamoto, as well as brothers at heart,　in jo 情or mutual feeling. They make a pledge to die together rather than be taken by the enemy, but they also pledge their undying devotion to each other. That is the central point of the play.
Suicide (jigai 自害) is mentioned as an alternative to being murdered by an enemy troop of lesser standing. Both men agree to this plan, making their story a love story with a tragic ending in which principles of emotional attachment (jo) predominate over military honor (gi). The play’s appeal to the Japanese is less in its literary prowess and the final sacrifice the two men make for love, than in a long meisho-tsukushi (exhaustive compendium of place names) on Mt. Hiei, at the foothills of which the two had died. The focus of Kanehira is definitely on the taboo of the double suicide of Kanehira and Yoshinaka at the end, not on the litany to Mt. Hiei.
Here is a list of the taboos broken in this play:
Running away from the enemy. The two men find themselves alone with each other. Thus, they give up the idea of an ‘enemy.’ There is no more enemy, only themselves.
Agreeing to stand and fight together as a pair, instead of part of a larger army. Thus, they give up the idea of ‘loyalty.’
Proposing suicide, a love pact to ensure that the enemy does not win. Thus, they give up the idea of ‘victory’ or ‘defeat.’
Being caught from behind by an arrow, perhaps an allusion to homosexual sex. Thus, one of the partners (Yoshinaka) gives up the idea of recognition, being able to give his name (nanori名乗り), fight to an honorable death, be redeemed (jobutsu成仏).　
Falling against one’s sword from the backside, again an allusion to being penetrated by choice. Thus, one of the partners (Kanehira) denies the self, gives himself up to himself.
Finally, to me the effect of Kanehira seems to be pure release: no enemy, no loyalty no cause, no victory or defeat, no recognition, no self. Is it any wonder that Mt. Hiei is praised? For centuries, Hiei had been the center of male religious activism, including homosexuality. In a larger sense, mountains had always been the prime male symbol in the Japanese native belief system.
Zitat aus dem Stück:
Kanehira speaks: the enemy, in great numbers, caught up to us from the rear we turned our horses around so that we could shoot defensive arrows when Kiso spoke to me about a promise he had made to himself---no matter how many of the enemy we repulsed, he wanted in the final moment for us to be together I knew there was purpose in his wish, so my answer was ‘yes.’ Kanehira speaks again: it is a selfish promise you have made think of all that you have set your hand to do in life, think of the shame you would bring on your family, is suicide the only answer? Imai turned away; reprimanded as Kiso was by Kanehira, he continued to retreat Yet later, Kiso, lonely and depressed, turned his remaining horse back toward the inner meadow of Awazu, back to the field of pine.
--Tomoegozen 16:28, 24. Mär. 2008 (CET)
thread_title:  Nicht vorhandene intime Beziehung 

message: Es gibt KEINE Beziehung zwischen Tomoe und Yoshinaka. Lest halt mal das Heike Monogatari. Nakahara Kaneto wird im Zusammenhang mit Tomoe nicht erwähnt. Kanehira (so heißt der Mann nicht Kanehiro!) und NUR Kanehira wird als Kind von Nakahara Kaneto im Heike Monogatari angegeben als er zum ersten Mal auftaucht.
Hier noch mal Tomoes EINZIGE, wahre Beschreibung im Heike Monogatari:
Lord Kiso had brought with him from SHINANO two women ATTENDANTS, Tomoe and Yamabuki. Yamabuki had remained in the capital because of illness. Of these two, Tomoe, fair complexioned and with long hair, was of exceptional beauty. As a fighter she was a match for a thousand odinary men, skilled in arms, able to bend the stoutest bow, on horseback or on foot, ever ready with her sword to confront any devil or god that came her way. She could manage the most unruly horse and gallop down the steepest slopes. Lord Kiso sent her into battle clad in finely meshed armor and equipped with a sword of unusual size and a powerful bow, depending on her to perform as one of his leading commanders. Again and again she emerged unrivaled in feats and valor. And this time too, even though so many of Lord Kiso's other riders had fled from his side or been struck down, Tomoe was among the six who remained with him.
--Tomoegozen 17:25, 24. Mär. 2008 (CET)
replies: text: Ich habe oben schon mal gesagt, dass das im Gempei Seisui Ki steht, einer Langfassung des Heike Monogatari in 48 Bänden, die die Geschehnisse und Personen weitaus detaillierter (und langatmiger) wiedergibt. Und dort steht auch das Tomoe die Tochter von Nakahara no Kanetō (dort als 木曾中三, 木曾中三権頭 und 中三権頭　bezeichnet) ist (zum Nachlesen (Abschnitt Ｐ０８７２)), sowie das die anderen Söhne von Nakahara no Kanetō sind (Abschnitt Ｐ０６５４). Warum sollte das Heike Monogatari die einzige Quelle sein, zumal das Gempei Seisui Ki im selben Zeitraum verfasst wurde? --Mps 18:17, 24. Mär. 2008 (CET)

text: Dann schreibt man das eben hin, das es verschiedene Ansichten der Familienkonstellation gibt. Aber auszublenden dass es sie gibt, ist unenzyklopädisch. Und was haben Yamabuki und Aoi Gozen mit ihr zu tun, außer dass sie dem gleichen Herrn dienten?. --Mps 22:30, 11. Mai 2008 (CEST)

text: Trotzdem gab es ja nicht so viele bekannte Frauen, als dass man Hangaku Gozen außen vor lassn müsste. Das ihre Familienabstammung ungesichert ist, ist klar genauso wie ihre gesamte Existenz unbewiesen ist. Zusätzlich darf man nicht vergessen das Primärliteratur nur eingeschränkt enzyklopädisch tauglich ist. Für mich war es dann nicht einzusehen warum dass das Heike Monogatari exklusiver Informationslieferant sein sollte und damit Informationen aus anderen Quellen ausgeblendet werden. Und sowie es momentan ist habe ich nichts auszusetzen, obwohl ich mal fragen wollte ob du zum besseren Nachvollziehen eine genauere Quellenangabe als nur Gempei Tojoroku machen kannst á la Seitenzahl oder min. Kapitel. --Mps 10:44, 12. Mai 2008 (CEST)
thread_title:  NICHT vorhandene Beziehung und erfundene Familiengeschichte 

message: Ich hätte gerne einen Beleg für die Behauptung, dass die reale Existenz von Tomoe Gozen umstritten ist. Welcher Wissenschaftler behauptet das wo? Ansonsten werde ich diese Aussage entfernen. Antiope05411 (Diskussion) 11:00, 4. Feb. 2014 (CET)
thread_title:  Existenz umstritten? 

message: – GiftBot (Diskussion) 11:20, 8. Jan. 2016 (CET)
thread_title:  {{Anker|deadurl_2015-10}} Defekte Weblinks