Diskussion:Portugiesen

message: My overall evaluation of this article is very negative. It seem like a text that could have been produced in the late 19th century of early 20th century, with all the racialist worldview then predominant and carrying the tradicional stereotypes, filled with factually wrong assertions, about southern European populations or national groups. To adress J. Patrick Fischer's "excuse" about the article, NO, this is not a question of "how to count" the influence of "Negroids" (in itself a desused "scientific"-racial category!) in the general Portuguese population! If this article means to speak about the populational origins of the Portuguese it can not do so by listing the supposed peoples from whom the Portuguese are descendent. It must explain, according to modern populacional genetic research, the demic historical processes that produced it and that can be accounted for in terms of genetic groups, such as populacional haplogroups, clines or clusters.
Furthermore, I question the innitial statements that the Portuguese are a Mixed People! Which population, may you please tell me, is not?!? Are you trying to say that the Germans are not?!? I do not even want to go there... And all statements occur within contexts and histories of discussion. The way that this article (and forget the Sub-Saharan stuff for a minute) says that the Morrish influence was bigger in Portugal then in any other European country (what's the source for this? And how can you compare whole countries, knowing that regional variation is central in European population genetics?), or that the Jews were a major group in Portuguese ethnogenesis, inscribes this article in a classical diatribe against the Portuguese, somehow trying to say that they are not truly "European" (from a genetic point of view, that is to say, racial point of view, that is to say, civilizational point of view, implying, though no stating, Portuguese inferiority vis a vis "Non-mixed Peoples").
Do understand me please, I do not hold a racialist or racist wordlview of any sort, I'm quite against them in fact. As is modern Science! And I am not trying to wash out the Moorish, Black African or Jewish supposed contributon for the "Portuguese gene pool", somehow trying to make them "more white or European"! I could not care less about the importance of those supposed populations for any gene pool you want! The Portuguese could be all Black, or Moorish or Jew. But the fact is that they aren't! So it is important to understand why someone feels the need to say they are!!! Does the article on the German people starte by saying they are a Mixed People with probable high genetic influence from Central Asian populations? I doubt it. Notice that the genetic variation of German populations, Y chromosse and Mithocondial DNA alike, is bigger than that of the Portuguese (as can be seen in HERE). That according to study by Pereira et al. 2005, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 3.83% in Iberians (Portuguese and Spanish),  2.86% in Sardinians, 2.38% in Albanians, 1% in the British/Irish,  0.94% in Sicilians, 0.62% in a German-Danish sample. That Haplogroups E and Haplogroup A has been detected in Portugal (3%), France (2.5%), Germany (2%), Sardinia (1.6%), Austria (0.78%), Italy (0.45%), Spain (0.42%) and Greece (0.27%) (see Cruciani et al. 2004, Flores et al. 2004, Brion et al. 2005, Brion et al. 2004, Rosser et al. 2000, Semino et al. 2004, and DiGiacomo et al. 2003, and also
Bosch et al. 2001 High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Variation Shows a Sharp Discontinuity and Limited Gene Flow between Northwestern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula).
:en:User:The Ogre 20:47, 1. Mär. 2008 (CET)
thread_title: Questioning this article's present version

message: Compare this article with the main text in the English version:
-----------------------------------
=====Ancestry=====
The Portuguese are a southwestern :en:European population, predominantly :en:Mediterranean and Atlantic European.
The earliest modern humans inhabiting Portugal are believed to have been :en:Paleolithic peoples that may have arrived in the :en:Iberian Peninsula as early as 35,000-40,000 years ago. Current interpretantion of :en:Y-chromosome and :en:mtDNA data suggests that modern-day Portuguese largely trace their ancestry to the paleolithic peoples which began arriving to the European continent between the end of the last glaciation around 45,000 years ago.
Northern Iberia is believed to have been a major Ice-age refuge from which Paleolithic humans later colonized Europe. Migrations from what is now Northern Iberia during the Paleolithic and :en:Mesolithic, links modern Iberians to the populations of much of :en:Western Europe and particularly the :en:British Isles and :en:Atlantic Europe. Recent books published by geneticists :en:Bryan Sykes, :en:Stephen Oppenheimer and :en:Spencer Wells have argued the large Paleolithic and Mesolithic Iberian influence in the modern day British gene-pool. Indeed, Y-chromosome :en:haplogroup :en:R1b (of Paleolithic origin) is the most common haplogroup in practically all of the Iberian peninsula and western Europe. Within the R1b haplogroup there are modal :en:haplotypes. One of the best-characterized  of these haplotypes is the :en:Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). This haplotype reaches the highest frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula and in the British Isles. In Iberia it reaches 33% in Portugal.
The :en:Neolithic colonisation of Europe from :en:Western Asia and the :en:Middle East beginning around 10,000 years ago reached Iberia, as most of the rest of the continent although, according to the :en:demic diffusion model, its impact was less than in the eastern half of the European continent.
During the 1st millennium BC, in the :en:Bronze Age, the first wave of migrations into Iberia of speakers of :en:Indo-European languages occurred. These were later (7th]] and 5th]] Centuries BC) followed by others that can be identified as :en:Celts.
Eventually urban cultures developed in southern Iberia, such as :en:Tartessos, influenced by the :en:Phoenician colonization of coastal :en:Mediterranean Iberia, with strong competition from the Greek colonization. These two processes defined Iberia's, and Portugal's, cultural landscape - Mediterranean towards the southeast and a Continental in the northwest.
Given the Paleolithic origin (and its cultural developments) and the Indo-European migrations, one can say that the Portuguese :en:ethnic origin is mainly a mixture of pre-Roman Pre-Celtic, Proto-Celtic and Celtic peoples, such as the :en:Lusitanians of :en:Lusitania, the Calaicians or Gallaeci of :en:Gallaecia, the :en:Celtici and the Cyntes or Conii of the :en:Alentejo and the :en:Algarve. 
The Romans were a major important influence on Portuguese culture, considering the :en:Portuguese language itself derives from :en:Latin.
Other influences included the Greeks, :en:Phoenicians/:en:Carthaginians (small semi-permanent commercial coastal establishments in the south), the :en:Vandals (:en:Silingi and :en:Hasdingi) and the Sarmatian :en:Alans (both expelled or partially integrated by the Visigoths and Suevi), and the :en:Visigoths and :en:Suevi (including the Buri), who were integrated into Portuguese society, particularly amongst the aristocracy, along with minor numbers of :en:Arabs, Berbers and :en:Jews who also settled in what is today Portuguese territory.
For the :en:Y-chromosome and :en:MtDNA lineages of the Portuguese and other peoples see this map and this one.
====== The Atlantic ======
Experts such as :en:Barry Cunliffe, :en:Bryan Sykes and :en:Stephen Oppenheimer have put forward theories, supported by genetic and archaeological studies, pointing to Iberia as the main origin of the people that re-populated :en:Atlantic Europe in the post-glacial period, during the Paleolithic and the Neolithic times. They argue that the evidence shows that this prehistoric genetic source remains the predominant one in the region.
====== The legacy of Muslim rule ======
There exists a number of studies which focus on the genetic impact of the eight centuries of Muslim rule in the Iberian peninsula (:en:al-Andalus) on the genetic make up of the Iberian population. Recent studies agree that there is some genetic relationship between Iberia (mainly far southern regions) and some :en:North African Populations as a result of this period of history, Iberia is the only region in Europe with a significant presence of the typically :en:North West African Y-chromosome haplotypes E-M81
,
 and Haplotype Va
, although this influence may be the result of ancient demic processes that predate the Islamic presenceA recent and thorough study about Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal revealed The mtDNA and Y data indicate that the Berber presence in that region dates prior to the Moorish expansion in 711 AD [...] Our data indicates that male Berbers, unlike sub-Saharan immigrants, constituted a long-lasting and continuous community in the country - Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Açores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry, and may constitute the result of some common western mediterranean populational background.
Iberia is also the region in Europe with the highest frequency of the female mediated mtDNA haplogroup L of :en:Sub-Saharan origin, as a result of Berber colonisation and, particularly on specific locations in the south, modern :en:African slavery. According to a summary study by Pereira et al. 2005, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 0.62% in a German-Danish sample, 1% in the British, 3.83% in Iberians (Portuguese and Spanish), 2.38% in Albanians, 2.86% in Sardinians and 0.94% in Sicilians
,
Nevertheless, the North African or just African element in modern day Iberians' ancestry is quite trivial when compared to the pre-Islamic ancestral basis .
======Historical groups and influences======
The ancestry of modern Portuguese has been influenced by the many peoples which have passed on its territory throughout history. These peoples include the Pre-Indo-European peoples of Iberia, Proto-Celts and :en:Celts (such as the :en:Lusitanians, Calaicians, :en:Celtici, :en:Cynetes and other :en:Pre-Roman Peoples of the Iberian Peninsula, such as other minor local tribes as the :en:Bracari, :en:Coelerni, :en:Equaesi, :en:Grovii, :en:Interamici, :en:Leuni, :en:Luanqui, :en:Limici, :en:Narbasi, :en:Nemetati, :en:Paesuri, :en:Quaquerni, :en:Seurbi, :en:Tamagani, :en:Tapoli, :en:Turduli, :en:Turduli Veteres, :en:Turdulorum Oppida, :en:Turodi and :en:Zoelae), :en:Phoenicians (:en:Punics), :en:Greeks, :en:Carthaginians, Romans, :en:Vandals, :en:Suebi, :en:Visigoths, :en:Alans, Buri, :en:Byzantines, :en:Saqaliba (:en:Slavs), :en:Berbers and :en:Arabs (:en:Moors), :en:Jews (:en:Sephardim or :en:Marranos).
Portugal was a recipient of immigration from Portuguese settlers who returned from the former Colonies in Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bisseau and Cape Verde), in the seventies. Recently, there has been a large surge in immigration from Eastern Europe, in particular, Russia and the Ukraine.
======References======
-----------
Huge difference, isn't it? :en:User:The Ogre 20:47, 1. Mär. 2008 (CET)
thread_title: English Version

message: The Portuguese are a southwestern :en:European population, predominantly :en:Mediterranean and Atlantic European.
The earliest modern humans inhabiting Portugal are believed to have been :en:Paleolithic peoples that may have arrived in the :en:Iberian Peninsula as early as 35,000-40,000 years ago. Current interpretantion of :en:Y-chromosome and :en:mtDNA data suggests that modern-day Portuguese largely trace their ancestry to the paleolithic peoples which began arriving to the European continent between the end of the last glaciation around 45,000 years ago.
Northern Iberia is believed to have been a major Ice-age refuge from which Paleolithic humans later colonized Europe. Migrations from what is now Northern Iberia during the Paleolithic and :en:Mesolithic, links modern Iberians to the populations of much of :en:Western Europe and particularly the :en:British Isles and :en:Atlantic Europe. Recent books published by geneticists :en:Bryan Sykes, :en:Stephen Oppenheimer and :en:Spencer Wells have argued the large Paleolithic and Mesolithic Iberian influence in the modern day British gene-pool. Indeed, Y-chromosome :en:haplogroup :en:R1b (of Paleolithic origin) is the most common haplogroup in practically all of the Iberian peninsula and western Europe. Within the R1b haplogroup there are modal :en:haplotypes. One of the best-characterized  of these haplotypes is the :en:Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). This haplotype reaches the highest frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula and in the British Isles. In Iberia it reaches 33% in Portugal.
The :en:Neolithic colonisation of Europe from :en:Western Asia and the :en:Middle East beginning around 10,000 years ago reached Iberia, as most of the rest of the continent although, according to the :en:demic diffusion model, its impact was less than in the eastern half of the European continent.
During the 1st millennium BC, in the :en:Bronze Age, the first wave of migrations into Iberia of speakers of :en:Indo-European languages occurred. These were later (7th]] and 5th]] Centuries BC) followed by others that can be identified as :en:Celts.
Eventually urban cultures developed in southern Iberia, such as :en:Tartessos, influenced by the :en:Phoenician colonization of coastal :en:Mediterranean Iberia, with strong competition from the Greek colonization. These two processes defined Iberia's, and Portugal's, cultural landscape - Mediterranean towards the southeast and a Continental in the northwest.
Given the Paleolithic origin (and its cultural developments) and the Indo-European migrations, one can say that the Portuguese :en:ethnic origin is mainly a mixture of pre-Roman Pre-Celtic, Proto-Celtic and Celtic peoples, such as the :en:Lusitanians of :en:Lusitania, the Calaicians or Gallaeci of :en:Gallaecia, the :en:Celtici and the Cyntes or Conii of the :en:Alentejo and the :en:Algarve. 
The Romans were a major important influence on Portuguese culture, considering the :en:Portuguese language itself derives from :en:Latin.
Other influences included the Greeks, :en:Phoenicians/:en:Carthaginians (small semi-permanent commercial coastal establishments in the south), the :en:Vandals (:en:Silingi and :en:Hasdingi) and the Sarmatian :en:Alans (both expelled or partially integrated by the Visigoths and Suevi), and the :en:Visigoths and :en:Suevi (including the Buri), who were integrated into Portuguese society, particularly amongst the aristocracy, along with minor numbers of :en:Arabs, Berbers and :en:Jews who also settled in what is today Portuguese territory.
For the :en:Y-chromosome and :en:MtDNA lineages of the Portuguese and other peoples see this map and this one.
====== The Atlantic ======
Experts such as :en:Barry Cunliffe, :en:Bryan Sykes and :en:Stephen Oppenheimer have put forward theories, supported by genetic and archaeological studies, pointing to Iberia as the main origin of the people that re-populated :en:Atlantic Europe in the post-glacial period, during the Paleolithic and the Neolithic times. They argue that the evidence shows that this prehistoric genetic source remains the predominant one in the region.
====== The legacy of Muslim rule ======
There exists a number of studies which focus on the genetic impact of the eight centuries of Muslim rule in the Iberian peninsula (:en:al-Andalus) on the genetic make up of the Iberian population. Recent studies agree that there is some genetic relationship between Iberia (mainly far southern regions) and some :en:North African Populations as a result of this period of history, Iberia is the only region in Europe with a significant presence of the typically :en:North West African Y-chromosome haplotypes E-M81
,
 and Haplotype Va
, although this influence may be the result of ancient demic processes that predate the Islamic presenceA recent and thorough study about Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal revealed The mtDNA and Y data indicate that the Berber presence in that region dates prior to the Moorish expansion in 711 AD [...] Our data indicates that male Berbers, unlike sub-Saharan immigrants, constituted a long-lasting and continuous community in the country - Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Açores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry, and may constitute the result of some common western mediterranean populational background.
Iberia is also the region in Europe with the highest frequency of the female mediated mtDNA haplogroup L of :en:Sub-Saharan origin, as a result of Berber colonisation and, particularly on specific locations in the south, modern :en:African slavery. According to a summary study by Pereira et al. 2005, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 0.62% in a German-Danish sample, 1% in the British, 3.83% in Iberians (Portuguese and Spanish), 2.38% in Albanians, 2.86% in Sardinians and 0.94% in Sicilians
,
Nevertheless, the North African or just African element in modern day Iberians' ancestry is quite trivial when compared to the pre-Islamic ancestral basis .
======Historical groups and influences======
The ancestry of modern Portuguese has been influenced by the many peoples which have passed on its territory throughout history. These peoples include the Pre-Indo-European peoples of Iberia, Proto-Celts and :en:Celts (such as the :en:Lusitanians, Calaicians, :en:Celtici, :en:Cynetes and other :en:Pre-Roman Peoples of the Iberian Peninsula, such as other minor local tribes as the :en:Bracari, :en:Coelerni, :en:Equaesi, :en:Grovii, :en:Interamici, :en:Leuni, :en:Luanqui, :en:Limici, :en:Narbasi, :en:Nemetati, :en:Paesuri, :en:Quaquerni, :en:Seurbi, :en:Tamagani, :en:Tapoli, :en:Turduli, :en:Turduli Veteres, :en:Turdulorum Oppida, :en:Turodi and :en:Zoelae), :en:Phoenicians (:en:Punics), :en:Greeks, :en:Carthaginians, Romans, :en:Vandals, :en:Suebi, :en:Visigoths, :en:Alans, Buri, :en:Byzantines, :en:Saqaliba (:en:Slavs), :en:Berbers and :en:Arabs (:en:Moors), :en:Jews (:en:Sephardim or :en:Marranos).
Portugal was a recipient of immigration from Portuguese settlers who returned from the former Colonies in Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bisseau and Cape Verde), in the seventies. Recently, there has been a large surge in immigration from Eastern Europe, in particular, Russia and the Ukraine.
======References======
-----------
Huge difference, isn't it? :en:User:The Ogre 20:47, 1. Mär. 2008 (CET)
thread_title: Ancestry

message: -----------
Huge difference, isn't it? :en:User:The Ogre 20:47, 1. Mär. 2008 (CET)
thread_title: References

message: 1911?!?!
The Ogre ist selbstverständlich richtig!
MuitoVelho 08:35, 5. Mär. 2008 (CET)
replies: text: Also, ich muß schon bitten... Sie übersehen völlig die Korrekturen von 1933 (Mischvolk)! LOL 217.232.100.69 18:03, 5. Apr. 2008 (CEST)
thread_title:  Wann wurde dieser Artikel geschrieben? 

message: In dem Artikel wird munter mit Zahlen jongliert. In der gegenwärtigen Version stellen sich aber zwei Probleme:
# Die Zahlen sind alle unbelegt.
# Es geht aus dem Text nicht hervor, ob jeweils nur die portugiesischen Staatsangehörigen oder auch einheimische Staatsangehörige portugiesescher Abstammung gemeint sind. Das ist vermutlich von Land zu Land anders. Bitte mal klären, andernfalls sind die Zahlen wertlos.
Gruß --SCPS 14:38, 21. Aug. 2008 (CEST)
replies: text: Ließe sich machen (außer von der Infobox, die Zahlen sind AFAIK vom englischen Artikel kopiert). Ist letztendlich aber sekundär, da Du den Hinweis auf die Ethnie gelöscht hast. Portugiesische Staatsbürger sind schließlich auch in ihrer großen Mehrheit portugiesischstämmig. Genauere Erläuterungen wären trotzdem sicher wünschenswert. Warum hast Du eigentlich die Geschichte der Bevölkerung entfernt? Die ist doch nicht strittig. Quelle könnte ich sogar nachtragen. --JPF just another user 18:15, 21. Aug. 2008 (CEST)
replies: text: Ich bin jetzt mal über den Artikel rübergegangen. Ich würde vorschlagen, die Zahlen der Infobox, da unbelegt zu löschen. Die unbelegten Zahlen im Text vielleicht auch, dort würde ich aber die Länder stehen lassen, weil ich diese für richtig halte, was bei den Zahlen nicht sicher ist. --JPF just another user 20:35, 21. Aug. 2008 (CEST)
replies: text: Was den Geschichtsabschnitt betrifft: Das Mischvolk-Gerede geht halt nicht. Habs entsprechend überarbeitet. Das Diercke-Länderlexikon ist auch nicht gerade ne optimale Quelle, aber so kann man IMHO den Abschnitt erst mal stehen lassen. Zu den Zahlen: Das sieht jetzt schon besser aus, wobei man halt beim Weltalmanach auch häufig nicht weiß, ob er von Staatsbürgern oder ethnischen Zuordnungen spricht. Wenn Du die Infobox löschen willst, rennst Du bei mir offene Türen ein. Ich hatte das gestern schon überlegt, wollte dann aber doch nicht ganz so brutal vorgehen. ;-) Zu den Ländern im Text, bei denen Du keine Zahlen hast, würde ich vorschlagen, die Listen in Fließtext umzuwandeln und irgendwas zu schreiben im Sinne von Darüber hinaus gibt es relevante protugiesische Bevölkerungsanteile in... – so ne Stichpunktliste sieht nicht wirklich gut aus. --SCPS 11:17, 22. Aug. 2008 (CEST)

text: Der Geschichtsteil gefällt mir jedenfalls gut. Infobox fliegt jetzt mangels Quellen und Widersprüchlichkeiten zu den belegten Daten raus. ;-) --JPF just another user 21:53, 22. Aug. 2008 (CEST)
thread_title:  Überarbeitungsbedürftiger Abschnitt "Auswanderung" 

message: Hello everyone! The article is much better now, in the sense that it does not have all those outdated racialist views. It should get further development, though. I'm writing not only to congratulate you all on those corrections, but also to point out some question I still have regarding a specific paragraph - the one that states:
Der maurische Einfluss war in Portugal stärker als in anderen europäischen Ländern, sie hatten einen großen Anteil an der Blüte von Handwerk und Landwirtschaft im frühen Mittelalter. Nach der Reconquista wurden die Mauren teils vertrieben, zum größten Teil jedoch versklavt. Die Juden, die im Mittelalter einen erheblichen Anteil an der Bevölkerung bildeten, wurden wie die verbliebene muslimische Bevölkerung gezwungen, das Christentum anzunehmen.
I know it present a source (Diercke Länderlexikon, Augsburg 1989, ISBN 3-89350-211-4), even if it is not clear which what exact statement the source backs up. Stil... The question, for me, is more substantive: if I do understand correctely it is stated that "The Moorish influence in Portugal was stronger than in other European countries, they had a large share of the flowering of crafts and agriculture in the early Middle Ages. After the Reconquista the Moors were expelled in part, for the most part, however, enslaved. The Jews in the Middle Ages, a significant proportion of the population represented, were forced to adopt Christianity, as the remaining Muslim population."
This is not correct.
In fact, regarding Moorish influence (and it is not clear if cultural or demic influence is meant...), I would say that Moorish influence was stronger in all the Iberian Peninsula (more in the south than in the north) than in the rest of Europe - not just Portugal. This civilizational influence, mind you, was much larger in southern Spain then in any other part of Iberia (see Granada...), and it was also much wider than just in the flowering of crafts and agriculture (look at science, philosophy and literature!). The Muslim population in Iberia (most of which were Muladi, and not Moors strictu senso - Berber or Arab, that is to say, they were ethnic Iberian Muslims of Hispanic pre-Islamic origin) was never, except in specific regions, the majority of the population, and its proportion always dwindled with the advance of the Reconquista. At the end of the Portuguese part of the Reconquista in 1249, the part of the population that remained Muslim, the so called Mouriscos (subject to discrimination processes, such as livin in ghettos, using specific identification signs, and being under surveilance from the catholic authorities, latter on the Inquisition), were almost entirely a people of romanic language that had converted to Islam in the previous centuries (and many re-converted to Catholicism) - most of them were not slaves, but low paid or indentured servants; they were a rather small and poor population concentred in Lisbon, Setúbal, Évora and the Algarve (see Mário Maestri (2006), Mouriscos em Portugal: triste história, triste historiografia, in Contra Relatos desde el Sur. Apuntes sobre Africa y Medio Oriente, Año II, no. 3. CEA-UNC, CLACSO, Córdoba, Argentina).
Regarding the Jewish population, and again Spain was much more important as a center of Sephardi Judaism, they were an ancient presence in Iberia (going back to Roman times, clearly documented since Visigothic times in 482 - see Jorge Martins (2006), Portugal e os Judeus: Volume I - dos primórdios da nacionalidade à legislação pombalina, Lisboa, Vega). This was always a minority with a "problematic" place in Iberia, namely due to the strong anti-semitic tendencies in Iberian Christianity and societies. The situation of the Jews in Portugal always oscilated between periods of strong tolerance (which did not mean equality, notice) to periods of strong persecution. One does not know the percentage of the Portuguese population that was Jewish at the end of the Middle Ages (14th and 15th centuries), even if it is known not to be small, namely after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, and even after the orders of expulsion and mass conversions in Portugal in 1497. The escape of most of the Portuguese Jews from Portugal (to North Africa, the Otoman Empire, the Nederlands, France, England) occured in the following centuries, since the orders of expulson and conversion (that were also directed at the Mouriscos) did not terminate the persecutions (look at the Lisbon Massacre of 1506) and discriminations. In fact, with the creation of the statute of the New Christians (with less social previleges and liberties than the Old Christians, compelled to use distintive elements of identiffication, etc.), which was not only aplied to converts but also to their descendents regardless of genealogical distance (this statute would endure in Portugal until 1772, in the context of the codes of Cleanliness of Blood and of the Portuguese Inquisition, that would last until 1821).
So, you see, the situation was not so simple as the aforementioned paragraph states. All this processes, that I here briefly sumarized, produced the extinction of the Jewish and Mourisco communities in Portugal (with the almost insignificant demographic exception of the Marrano crypto-jewish communities, namely that of Belmonte). The central issue, regarding the origin of the present Portuguese population (which is quite different from speaking of the cultural influences in the Portuguese culture), is that even if the Jewish and Mourisco populations were to have been a significative proportion of the whole of the population, both of them had most of their demic origin in autoctonous Iberian populations (see Antonio Medina Molera (1980), Historia de Andalucía).
So, I believe this paragraph deserves some re-writing. Thank you once again! :en:User:The Ogre 78.130.10.73 18:46, 23. Aug. 2008 (CEST)
replies: text: I already have a unified login, so you can always talk to me in my talk page here. Nevertheless I watch my talk page at the english wiki much closely, so you better write there. See you! The Ogre 19:43, 26. Aug. 2008 (CEST)
thread_title:  Problematic paragraph