Discussió:Brescià

message: The ortography used for the examples in brescian language in this modification is consistent with current use in brescian literature. See following links for a short review:
* Dizìl coi fiùr - commedia in dialetto bresciano di Velise Bonfanti
*  - Brèsa Desquarciàda - Spettacolo teatrale di Giovanni Peli
* Poesie di Rosi Pescatori Lucchini
* Poesie di Antonella Luisa Cattaneo
* Poesie di Renato Hagman
* (El Piò enVers - edizione 2015 - Raccolta di poesie in dialetto bresciano per un viaggio alla riscoperta del proprio territorio)
* Dario Tornago
* Pietro Treccani
see also all the examples in Eastern Lombard given in the article of Treccani Enciclopedia by Giovanni Bonfadini concerning Lombard dialects  Dialetti lombardi - Enciclopedia Treccani
The previous ortography used for the examples is a personal ortography used exclusively by user Dalle93 as admitted by himself in this discussion on wiki in lombard language where he calls it "La mea invencion" (my invention).
--Ninonino (disc.) 11:40, 24 oct 2016 (CEST)
=== It's not a standard, nor de facto ===
The ortography used by me in this page is the result of a large study on a standard form for the Lombard Language. You can find it even in some printed or digital works and it's called LoReS ortography. The reason I keep changing your modifications is that there's no reason to put the classical and incoherent form of writing used in (SOME) brescian dialects as a standard for brescian dialect because it's not official (so it's as good as mine) and not everyone uses it. I chose to put the pronunciation (i.e. the phonetic transcription) next to the LoRes form to show exactly who generally the words sound. LoRes, also, results more logical and comprehensible to catalan speakers. The fact is "my invention" doesn't undervaluate it. You can find written works with LoReS:
* El llibre de poemes Il desiderio è la scintilla del fuoco - El desideri l'è la falliva del fœg, del Joan Josep Barcelo i Bauçà
* La Vox Lombarda, blog
* Ortografia LoRes - PDF
* Alguns articles del bloc d'informació lingüística Linguoresistència
--Dalle93 (disc.) 21:16, 24 oct 2016 (CEST)
replies: text: > The ortography used by me in this page is the result of a large study on a standard form for the Lombard Language.

text: In wikipedia this is called "original research" and is not allowed. It is one of the basic principles of Wikipedia.

text: > there's no reason to put the classical and incoherent form of writing used in (SOME) brescian dialects as a standard for brescian dialect because it's not official (so it's as good as mine) and not everyone uses it

text: May be not everyone but the vast majority yes, even if with small differences, at least since the second half of XIX century. Your LORES, a personal variation of SL (thus inconsistent with it, just to reply to the accusation of incoherence), is radically different from this tradition. Both, yours and SL, have been invented in recent years and are still not widely adopted, but only sporadically used by a handful of supporters, this in contrast with the traditional ortographies that on the contrary are used in hundreds of authors and pubblications, both online and on paper. To be clear, this is not a judgement on its validity, this in not a matter of discussion.

text: --Ninonino (disc.) 10:18, 25 oct 2016 (CEST)
replies: text: :Un acord de mínims seria que els exemples posats es basin en una referència a fonts terciàries, no?—Leptictidium (digui) 12:30, 25 oct 2016 (CEST)
replies: text: ::  Estoy de acuerdo y si tendré la oportunidad añadiré todas las referencias por cada ejemplo, puesto que no sean revertidas por el otro usuario. Por ejemplo el modelo "caàl/caài" (caballo/caballos) se encuentra en esta poesia de Velise Bonfante donde se pueden apreciar ambas las formas (singular y plural). La palabra "caàl" se encuentra en esta misma forma también en el diccionario del Melchiorri y en un montón de otras publicaciones en bresciano y bergamasco. De lo contrario la forma "un cavall / du cavaî" que se encuentra en este momento en el texto del artículo no se encuentra en ninguna publicación ni en bresciano ni en bergamasco. Igual por lo que se refiere a las palabras "una stacion / du stacion" o "el formaig / i formaig", intente usted a encontrar una sola referencia donde se utilizan bajo esta forma, y intente depués a buscarlos en la forma "stasiù" o "formài"... Por supuesto, si se acepta una forma, los otros ejemplos tienen que ser coerentes, no se puede usar una ortografia por un ejemplo y otra para otro, no? --Ninonino (disc.) 16:38, 25 oct 2016 (CEST)
Modificado el texto agregando ejemplos en forma ortográfica verificable con su referencia a fuentes terciarias, como sugerido por  Leptictidium. En detalle:
* Quat: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.143: 
* Cuàt: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.173: 
* Piàt: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.116: 
* Pasiù: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.97, 26 i 35: 
* Cà: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.96: 
* Lüna: Roberto Alberti Die Mundart von Gavardo (Prov. Brescia), Librairie Droz, Ginevra, 1993 - pag.127 i 175: : Elena Alberti Nulli La lüna söi rónc - Edició Serra Tarantola - ISBN 9788888507156: : Maria Filippini En del bósch, sóta la lüna - Commedia en brescià: 
* Fómna: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.268: 
* Néf: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.64: 
* Gat: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.292: 
* Òm: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.70: 
* Ventài: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.312: 
* Pér: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.106: 
* Caàl / Caàj: comedia en brescià de Velise Bonfante: :  Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.99.
--Ninonino (disc.) 10:25, 27 oct 2016 (CEST)
thread_title: Ortography for examples in brescian

message: The ortography used by me in this page is the result of a large study on a standard form for the Lombard Language. You can find it even in some printed or digital works and it's called LoReS ortography. The reason I keep changing your modifications is that there's no reason to put the classical and incoherent form of writing used in (SOME) brescian dialects as a standard for brescian dialect because it's not official (so it's as good as mine) and not everyone uses it. I chose to put the pronunciation (i.e. the phonetic transcription) next to the LoRes form to show exactly who generally the words sound. LoRes, also, results more logical and comprehensible to catalan speakers. The fact is "my invention" doesn't undervaluate it. You can find written works with LoReS:
* El llibre de poemes Il desiderio è la scintilla del fuoco - El desideri l'è la falliva del fœg, del Joan Josep Barcelo i Bauçà
* La Vox Lombarda, blog
* Ortografia LoRes - PDF
* Alguns articles del bloc d'informació lingüística Linguoresistència
--Dalle93 (disc.) 21:16, 24 oct 2016 (CEST)
replies: text: > The ortography used by me in this page is the result of a large study on a standard form for the Lombard Language.

text: In wikipedia this is called "original research" and is not allowed. It is one of the basic principles of Wikipedia.

text: > there's no reason to put the classical and incoherent form of writing used in (SOME) brescian dialects as a standard for brescian dialect because it's not official (so it's as good as mine) and not everyone uses it

text: May be not everyone but the vast majority yes, even if with small differences, at least since the second half of XIX century. Your LORES, a personal variation of SL (thus inconsistent with it, just to reply to the accusation of incoherence), is radically different from this tradition. Both, yours and SL, have been invented in recent years and are still not widely adopted, but only sporadically used by a handful of supporters, this in contrast with the traditional ortographies that on the contrary are used in hundreds of authors and pubblications, both online and on paper. To be clear, this is not a judgement on its validity, this in not a matter of discussion.

text: --Ninonino (disc.) 10:18, 25 oct 2016 (CEST)
replies: text: :Un acord de mínims seria que els exemples posats es basin en una referència a fonts terciàries, no?—Leptictidium (digui) 12:30, 25 oct 2016 (CEST)
replies: text: ::  Estoy de acuerdo y si tendré la oportunidad añadiré todas las referencias por cada ejemplo, puesto que no sean revertidas por el otro usuario. Por ejemplo el modelo "caàl/caài" (caballo/caballos) se encuentra en esta poesia de Velise Bonfante donde se pueden apreciar ambas las formas (singular y plural). La palabra "caàl" se encuentra en esta misma forma también en el diccionario del Melchiorri y en un montón de otras publicaciones en bresciano y bergamasco. De lo contrario la forma "un cavall / du cavaî" que se encuentra en este momento en el texto del artículo no se encuentra en ninguna publicación ni en bresciano ni en bergamasco. Igual por lo que se refiere a las palabras "una stacion / du stacion" o "el formaig / i formaig", intente usted a encontrar una sola referencia donde se utilizan bajo esta forma, y intente depués a buscarlos en la forma "stasiù" o "formài"... Por supuesto, si se acepta una forma, los otros ejemplos tienen que ser coerentes, no se puede usar una ortografia por un ejemplo y otra para otro, no? --Ninonino (disc.) 16:38, 25 oct 2016 (CEST)
Modificado el texto agregando ejemplos en forma ortográfica verificable con su referencia a fuentes terciarias, como sugerido por  Leptictidium. En detalle:
* Quat: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.143: 
* Cuàt: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.173: 
* Piàt: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.116: 
* Pasiù: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.97, 26 i 35: 
* Cà: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.96: 
* Lüna: Roberto Alberti Die Mundart von Gavardo (Prov. Brescia), Librairie Droz, Ginevra, 1993 - pag.127 i 175: : Elena Alberti Nulli La lüna söi rónc - Edició Serra Tarantola - ISBN 9788888507156: : Maria Filippini En del bósch, sóta la lüna - Commedia en brescià: 
* Fómna: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.268: 
* Néf: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.64: 
* Gat: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.292: 
* Òm: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.70: 
* Ventài: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.312: 
* Pér: Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 2 - pag.106: 
* Caàl / Caàj: comedia en brescià de Velise Bonfante: :  Giovanni Battista Melchiori Vocabolario bresciano-italiano, Volume 1 - pag.99.
--Ninonino (disc.) 10:25, 27 oct 2016 (CEST)
thread_title:  It's not a standard, nor ''de facto''