Беседа:Ханкенди

message: "Ханканди" is official name of the town since Azerbaijan gained independence in 1991. Please make relevant change in naming and content of the article. Regards, --Verman1 11:34, 30 октомври 2011 (UTC)
"Stepanakert" is official name of the town since Nagorno-Karabakh Republic gained independence in 1992 and the town is not under administration of Azerbaijan.  --Габриел*б/п* 14:46, 30 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nagorno-Karabakh Republic has not been recognized officially by any country in the world, all countries (including Armenia) recognized this land as a part of Azerbaijan. Thus, official name used in Azerbaijan should be published. --Verman1 17:41, 30 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: :All further talk will be pointless. This case has been discussed already here. As you can see in english they use the name  that is used by the citizens of that town as in almost every other wiki. Regards! --Габриел*б/п* 18:38, 30 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Your discussion is empty. Again, we can not accept English wikipedia as a rule, we should accept official naming. In case of other cities in Karabakh official namings have been used. For example, in Bulgarian Wikipedia we use Agdam instead of Akna, Шуша instead of Шуши́, Келбаджар instead of Карвачар. It is not clear why you wish to make Khankendi an exception. This rule (using official naming) should be applied in all cases, independent of other Wikipedias. Regards, --Verman1 18:50, 30 октомври 2011 (UTC)

text: ::First of all you talk about official name. This town is governed by Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, which represents the authority at the time. Ergo the name they use is the official.

text: ::Second of all, as you see, this discussion is not very popular in bulgarian wiki and there arent enough editors , so we have to accept resolutions of our colleagues editing the english wiki.

text: ::And finally as I already said further talk is pointless, and I leave this discussion. Best Regards ! --Габриел*б/п* 19:23, 30 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::: I agree with Габриел, the relevant in the case is the name used for almost 20 years by the people who live there. On the other hand, in the examples you gave, as you can see, the armenian and azeri spelling are similar (Akdam/Agdam). --Василчо 19:53, 30 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Nagorno-Karabakh is not officially recognized entity and their naming can not be accepted as official. I understand that you are not interested in this issue, but in some cases there should be found some consensus and resolution for this affair. Saying that the relevant in the case is the name used for almost 20 years by the people who live there is wrong, because 14.000 Azerbaijani people have been forcibly deported from the town and they still use the name Xankendi for their native town. To accept the point of government which owned those lands through mass killings and deportations is wrong. --Verman1 06:30, 31 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::: And the final result is 2-1... (without considering that you aren't bulgarian editor...). I think that we have to stop with this, please don't persist, the most relevant wiki, which people from all over the world, from Alaska to New Zealand read and use everyday, you know what says. --Василчо 08:54, 31 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::Dear Vasilcho. Stopping the discussion without any result or consensus is not a way to deal with a problem. I am sure that this problem will arise again in future with another articles (or possibly with this article). Calling me a non-Bulgarian editor and thus making a prejudice against user because of his nationality is against Wikipedia rules. At last, this is not soccer game, this is serious discussion and we need a consensus that will satisfy both sides. --Verman1 10:05, 31 октомври 2011 (UTC)

text: Verman1, the problem is not related to your nationality. According to me, there are two important issues here - legal and linguistic. The first has already been discussed and I agree that you have grounds to some extent. The official name in the country is important. However, the second question is which name is imposed in Bulgarian language. I can not find any Bulgarian language map or other source with the name Hankendi. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to change imposed names in the relevant languages, but to follow them and if there is a need - to explain. Currently it is explained in the article that the official name of this town is Hankendi. Maybe we have to improve the text itself ... --Regards,Akeckarov 10:21, 31 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: :Hi Akeckarov. As for the Bulgarian version of the name, I guess not only in Bulgaria,  but also in every country in world we are used to name places with official naming. I found some Bulgarian sites where this city mentioned as Xankendi like in here. I am not sure about maps, because I am not familiar with maps published in Bulgaria and how correct they are. I don't know how far you are familiar with Azerbaijani-Armenian conflict, but there many name conflicts in this region. For example almost all cities in Armenia had Azerbaijani naming prior to 20th century, but since Armenians began to settle in those lands, they began to put Armenian version of the names. This process finished with complete deportation of Azerbaijan population from Armenia. But no one is using Azerbaijani version of names in Armenia, just because Armenian version of these names are officially recognized names. Such rule should be applied in everywhere, including in this article. I hope these facts are more than enough for us to move the article name. --Verman1 11:54, 31 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Hi, Verman1. The question is really complicated. I am not deeply familiar with the historical background of the Armenian-Azerbaijan relations and therefore I'll restrict my comments. So, regarding the geographical names we have two principles

text: ::A)Priority has the official name. (in case with Hankendi different from the Armenian name);

text: ::B)Priority has imposed in the relevant language name/form. There are many examples, but let try with the form "Neapol" in your language. Why not the official "Napoli"? Or "Finlandiya". Why not the official Suomi? Or Portuqaliya (Portugal), Lissabon (Lisboa) ...Regards, --Akeckarov 13:03, 31 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Akeckarov, the samples you presented should be viewed from different aspect. For example we use Lissabon, in magyar language it is Lisszabon, in English it is Lisbon and etc. First of all this is not forgery of the name, this is transliteration. You can clearly see that name Stepanakert is not transliteration of Khankendi. Name Stepanakert is used by the foreign occupational (also illegal) government, not by the native people or legal government. They use name Khankendia and this should be taken as priority. To say the truth, I don't understand your stubbornness in this question, which have almost no principal meaning for you. --Verman1 19:10, 2 ноември 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Do you think that "Finlandiya" is translitaration for Suomi?--Akeckarov 14:58, 4 ноември 2011 (UTC)

text: ::::There is an organization called United Nations which every sovereign country (including Bulgaria) officially recognized as authority for independence and sovereignty of all nations in the world. This organization's maps and other documents are recognized as officially reliable ones. You can clearly see in UN website that in world map country name is not Suomi, it is Finland and it is officially recognized name. No one makes any contest about it. And in this map you can clearly see the city name as Khankendi, not because I or someone else want this to be called like this, but because this is officially recognized name of the town by all 192 members of the UN. Again, what is the reason that you so stubbornly want this town to be called in wrong version? --Verman1 17:37, 4 ноември 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::Amazing how the map presented here has a mention "The boundaries and names shown and the designations used on this map do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations". Amazing how Verman1 does not mention that the city was called "Stepanakert" from 1923 till 1991 by Azerbaijani authorities. And amazing how he mentions that the name "Stepanakert" would be "used by the foreign occupational (also illegal) government" while the name has been chosen by local native Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh.

text: :::::A more interesting question is what is the usual name of the city in Bulgarian.

text: :::::For the readers of this page who don't know about it: Verman1 is actually trying to PoV-push Azerbaijani titles on articles about cities in Nagorno-Karabakh (and particularly about Stepanakert) on many WPs (see his global contributions), while blatantly ignoring local rules on Article titles.

text: :::::And by the way, writing about "mass killings and deportations" is extremely PoV (to say the least) and can't be supported by any reliable source.

text: :::::Sorry for not writing in Bulgarian, but I felt that several people here were not familiar with the situation there.

text: :::::Sardur 23:02, 4 ноември 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::::I don't think it is worth to answer to your offencive language. --Verman1 06:51, 5 ноември 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: :::::::I'd rather think that you can't answer my arguments, but that's not my problem. Sardur 11:15, 5 ноември 2011 (UTC)

text: :::: What has a "principal meaning" is that the titles of the Bulgarian Wikipedia articles should correspond to the name in Bulgarian language. Not the name used by the local government (de facto or de jure) neither the name used by the Bulgarian government but the name commonly used in Bulgarian. --Спас Колев 11:49, 6 ноември 2011 (UTC)

text: ::Hello Verman1. I keep to notice the source which you presented here is not right in Bulgarian. I guess they are used some translation program like Google translator. In Bulgarian do not exist letters ы, ё. Can you change the name of my country in Azerbaijani language to looks like Bolqariya and not like Bolqaristan? The name of my country is България (Bəlgariya, Bəlgaria...) --Николов 18:57, 31 октомври 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: :::Excuse me, but I don't clearly understand what you wanted to say. --Verman1 17:40, 4 ноември 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: :::: He is trying to say that:

text: ::::* the web page in the reference is written in a rather bad Bulgarian

text: ::::* :az:Bolqarıstan is not direct transcription of Bulgaria as well (and that could be seen by many Bulgarians as offensive because of our common history with the Turks)

text: :::: Спас Колев 11:49, 6 ноември 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Ханканди" is official name of the town