نقاش ويكيبيديا:برنامج ويكيبيديا للتعليم/مناهج دراسية/ترجمة، خالد الشهاري/1415مسودة ترجمة الفريق الأول

message: Many people at the present time consider human translation as a very slow and costly process. They compare it with the automatic machine translation as the latter is very quick and cheap. However, the final output of machine translation is not as the quality of human translation. Therefore, to bridge the gap, translation industry has developed ‘post-editing’ which is the manual correction of machine translation. The job of a post-editor is not easy as it might look like. Post-editing cannot be so quick with every context. For example, using the Google Translate to translate a legal or technical text is different from using it to translate a literary text. The difference lies on the complexity which a post-editor can face.
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: The topic gives information about the history, classification and market of post-editing,
thus it can be of a benefit for all Arab readers
Beginner translators and editors who are interested in reading more in their field or do certain research about the
topic
English native speakers who study English-Arabic translation can find this useful in terms of how to structure sentences in Arabic or in term of gaining new terminologies
thread_title:  Target Readership 

message: 1-	Changing the format of the ST to fit with Arab readers. For example, the title: ‘Light and full postediting’ is translated as
 
(التحرير اللاحق للنصوص المترجمة آليا (البسيط والكامل)
Because if we follow the rules of English and translate accordingly, we will have something like
 
(التحرير اللاحق البسيط والكامل للنصوص المترجمة آليا)
In such a translation, the classification of ‘light’ and ‘full’ is not obvious for the readers.
 
2-	Some words cannot be isolated from the context because if they are isolated, they will have different meaning which indeed will affect the quality f translation.
For example: the word ‘intervention’ in general context it means
التدخل
However, in this context it sounds rather political and does not fit with the technicality of the text
Thus, it has been translated as
 
التغيير.
cannot take its general meaning المهامsimilarly, the word ‘tasks’ which generally mean
Being idiomatic is one of the skills that a translator should possess and this issue has been referred to in literature. Bassnett (2002, p.33) states that: dynamic equivalence is based on the principle of equivalent effect. She explains that further by saying: the relationship between receiver and message should aim at being the same as that between the original receivers and the SL message.
3-	Translation by paraphrase: The text includes technical terms that are relatively new in the field of translation. Terms like post-editing, pre-editing have been addressed before, but the term itself in Arabic ( i.e standing alone) would create a kind of confusion. In other words, translating it as تحرير لاحق أو تحرير سابق without referring to the machine translation would make the reader confuse it with normal human editing of translation. Thus, it is necessary to make the term clear by using translation by paraphrase using related words. The same applies to the word post-editor. It is a newly coined term that required to be introduced well when rendering it into Arabic.
(Baker, 2011 )
4-	Translation by addition: In some places in the text, it has been necessary to add some words to the expressions or terms either to avoid ambiguity or awkward Arabic structure. An example of this is ‘industry bodies’ and ‘in the eighties’.
(Baker, 2011)
5-	Translation shifts: Translation shifts (Catford, 1965) whether in sentence structure or word class have been necessary in some places in the text to follow the Arabic language structural system and maintain the cohesion of the sentence.
thread_title:  Strategic Decisions 

message: 1 Translation by addition has been deemed necessary
 
to clarify the meaning of the term otherwise the reader will confuse it with the normal
editing which is conducted by the editor after human translation. Thus, adding
النصوص المترجمة آليًا
 
will make it clear that it is about machine translation.
(Dickins, Hervey and Higgins, 2002,24)
 2  The word between parentheses has been used to
denote to the different way of writing the term i.e. by using dash (-).
However, in Arabic, it can be written in one form only which is
(التحرير اللاحق)
Dash (-) can’t be used in such place in Arabic.
 
Therefore, the word has been deleted as it doesn’t add anything to the meaning and
there is no way to write it in another form
(Baker, 2011, p.42)
3  The literal translation of the term ‘ machine- generated translation’ is
(الترجمة المولدة آليًا)
However, we opted for more idiomatic translation by rendering it as
( النصوص المترجمة آليًا)
4 It is unidiomatic to say
(الشخص الذي يحرر لاحقًا)
thus the verb
 
(يجري)
  
has been added for idiomatic translation and maintain cohesion of the sentence.
5  To avoid literal awkward translation, we opted for translation by paraphrase where ‘postediting the machine output’ has been translated as
 
إجراء تحرير لاحق للنص المترجم.
(Baker, 2011, 36-38)
6 we found it necessary to make substitution and replace the pronoun ‘it’ with the noun it refers to in order to maintain cohesion and avoid confusion. Thus, we added
يختلف التحرير اللاحق.
7 
Translation by addition.
Postedited text has been translated as 
النص الذي خضع للتحرير اللاحق
where
الذي خضع لـ
have been added to maintain cohesion and right Arabic structure.
(Dickins, Hervey and Higgins, 2002,24)
8 (و)
has been added as a cohesive device to connect the two sentence.
9 Transliteration has been used with the tools names as they don’t have an equivalent in Arabic. Adding the term in English is also necessary to make it easy to the reader to search for it.
10 معامل
has been added to make it explicit.
11 ( تحقيق andمنها )
have been added to maintain cohesion.
12 As the text will be available on the internet for years, we opted for referring to the exact time of the first studies of postediting. Thus, we added
(القرن العشرين.)
13  we opted for using the right Arabic collocation for the nouns ‘guidelines’ and ‘training’ which make it more idiomatic.
14  Class shift from verb to adverb to maintain cohesion and idiomatic translation.
(Catford, 1965, 73-81)
15  Translation by addition to make it explicit.
16 Tahani suggested to translate: Light and full postediting seems the wording most used today. as :
ويبدو أن التحرير اللاحق للنصوص بصيغتيه البسيط والكامل هو الأكثر استخدامًا في الوقت الحاضر.
However, I think in this context the focus is on the two types of postediting, full and light, because earlier in the paragraph it is said:
اعتيادية وسريعة أو أنها كاملة وسريعة
صيغ are not البسيط والكامل +
 
for postediting
but rather degrees or levels of it,
because if we say
(بصيغتيه)
as if they are two versions.
.My suggestion was to link this sentence with what came before
and we agreed on that
 
17 The general meaning of ‘degree’ is
(درجة)
.Although we can say
(درجة من الجودة) ,
we would rather translate it
مستوى من الجودة
because it is more idiomatic.
18  The translation is always bound by the context.
If the words are isolated from their own context, they no longer make a sense to the target readers and they will be no difference between human
translation and machine translation. Therefore, translating ‘outcome’ here as
(مخرج)
does not convey the meaning that readership will not be able to immediately understand what is meant by
مخرج
thus, we agreed on translating it as:
(النص المترجم في نسخته النهائية)
19 Although there is a full stop in the previous sentence, we suggest to link between the previous sentence and the next one. This makes idea more coherent and readily acceptable.
20  The structure in Arabic differs from English. This fact is emphasized by Bell (1991, p.6) who states that: "languages are different from each other; they are different in form having distinct codes and rules regulating the construction of grammatical stretches of language and these forms have different meanings." That why there has been a reverse in the structure of: ‘’For some language pairs and for some tasks, and with engines that have been trained with domain specific good quality data, some clients are already requesting translators to postedit instead of translating from scratch, in the belief that they will attain similar quality at a lower cost. ’’Obviously, the main noun is ‘clients’ and the main verb is’ are requesting’. Thus, this sentence has been translated first and put earlier.What came before is stating the reasons
why clients are requesting translators to postedit.
21  In the ST ,‘ industry advises’ may sound idiomatic in English.
However, industry is inanimate and cannot give advices. Thus, it was necessary to add
(العاملون.)
22 To avoid literalness, ‘agreement’ was translated as
رأي جامع
23  Syntax of Arabic is different from English. This is obvious in the sentence: ‘’after some thirty years, postediting is still “a nascent profession”. Postediting here is a ‘’Cataphoric Reference’’ which is a figure of speech where an earlier expression refers to or describes a forward expression. This style does not fit with Arabic syntax. There should be a reference to postediting early in the sentence. Saying :
 
بعد حوالي 30 سنة ، ما يزال التحرير اللاحق يعتبر تخصصا حديثا
Is vague and unclear as it let the readers wonder what happened after 30 years!
24  In the source text, the sentence: ‘’ Postediting overlaps with translating and editing’’ is clear.
However, in Arabic, there would be an overlap between postediting and editing which may confuses the readers.
Thus,
’بمفهومه العام’
 
has been added.
25  Translation by addition, usually
 
العلاقة الطردية
explains
كلما زاد س، زاد ص
and it fits well with this context.
26 This whole paragraph was sophisticated and has some embedded sentences. First, it has been translated literally to understand the general meaning. There are cases in which a translator confronts these types of sentences that require to be divided up. In many cases, dividing the paragraph into sentences does not help to write a good translation. This is one of the cases that requires understanding the meaning of the ST and then render it in ones words and then adjust it as required.
Bibliography:
Baker, M. (2011) In Other Words: A Coursebook on Translation, London/New York: Routledge
Bassnett, S. (2002) Translation Studies. 3rd edn. London: Methuen
Bell, R.T. (1991) Translation and Translating: Theory and Practice. London: Longman
Catford, J.C. (1965) A Linguistic Theory of Translation: An Essay in Applied Linguistics. London: Oxford University Press
Dickins, G., Hervey, S., and Higgins, I. (2002) Thinking Arabic Translation: A Course in Translation Method: Arabic to English. USA and Canada: Routledge
Websites
http://vis.stanford.edu/papers/post-editing
thread_title:  Decisions of Detail 

message: Dear Sharifa and Tahani
This is a professional translation. Well Done!
Reading your translation, we noticed that you tend to add a space before the coma which is not the norm in Arabic. Towards an improved clarity of the text, we would like also to suggest the following basic changes:
1
التحرير اللاحق للنصوص المترجمة آليا
تحرير الترجمات الآلية
2
التحرير السابق للنص الأصلي
تحرير النص قبل ترجمته آليا
3
المحرر اللاحق
محرر الترجمات الآلية
4
البسيط والكامل
البسيط والشامل
5
باستخدام أنماط لغوية محددة
We found this expression really confusing. Referring to the ST and the article about Controlled Language, we found that you omitted (for example) and we would like to suggest this translation:
كاستخدام خيارات لغوية شائعة وبسيطة مثلا
6
ومن ثم إجراء تحرير لاحق للنص المترجم
ثم تحرير الترجمة الآلية للنص
7
خضع للتحرير اللاحق فيما بعد
ويمكن فيما بعد مراجعة الترجمة الآلية المحررة
8
الذي تم الاتفاق عليه
المتفق عليه
9
في أواخر السبعينات
السبعينيات
You might add
سبعينيات القرن الماضي
10
ومن ثم في بعض الشركات
This means ‘hence/therefore’ while you need
You might use
ثم
11
و جنيرال موتورز
وجنرال موتورز
12
ثمانينات
ثمانينيات
13
مرتبطة بتلك التطبيقات ،
بناء على تطبيق الترجمة في المؤسسات المشار إليها
14
الأمريكتين
الأمريكيتين
15
التسعينات
التسعينيات
16
والإتصالات
والاتصالات
17
اضافات
إضافات
18
والتي لا يمكن تلبيتها
وهو ما لا يتأتى
19
وضعت الدراسات في فترة الثمانينات تصنيفا لمستويات التحرير اللاحق ، فتم في البداية تصنيفه في إطار خدمات المفوضية الأوروبية للترجمة على أنه اعتيادي وسريع أو أنه كامل وسريع،
صنفت الدراسات تحرير الترجمات الآلية إلى اعتيادي وسريع أو شامل وسريع بناء على خدمات المفوضية الأوروبية للترجمة.
20
عندما يكون الوقت المتاح لديه قصير
عندما يكون الوقت المتاح لديه قصيراً
21
إجراءالتفاوض
إجراء التفاوض
space needed
22
هناأن
هنا أن
space needed
23
بدلا من القيام بالتحرير اللاحق لنص مترجم آليًا ،
بدلا من تحرير ترجمة آلية،
24
لإعتقادهم
لاعتقادهم
25
بعض أزواج اللغات
بين لغات معينة
26
قد تم تحريره من قبل
قد سبق تحريره قبل ترجمته
27
بأن يتم استخدام التحرير اللاحق عندما
بتحرير الترجمة الآلية
28
ماهو
ما هو
space needed
29
ما هية
ماهية
delete the space
30
ولا يوجد أرقام
ولا توجد أرقام
31
اجمالي
إجمالي
32
ولكن ما نسبته 85٪ منهم
ولكن 85٪ منهم
33
لمحررة(لاحقا)
space needed
34
يمكن القول أن العلاقة
يمكن القول إن العلاقة
جملة القول تبدأ بإن وليس أن
35
والترجمةالآلية
والترجمة الآلية
36
فكلما زادت عمليات التحرير اللاحق، كلما زادت جودة الترجمة الآلية، وكلما أصبحت
فكلما زادت عمليات التحرير اللاحق زادت جودة الترجمة الآلية وأصبحت
كلما تدخل فقط على جملة الشرط ولا تكرر في جواب الشرط
thread_title:  Revisor's Comments 

message: Hey guys,
Thanks for your comments.
 Please consider the following: 
For point 1 and2: Although your suggestion sounds more idiomatic, I opted for identifying the term in order to make it easy when comparing it with pre-editing. Also, the term is already used, although there are different forms of it like التحرير القبلي والبعدي. Here we are referring to concepts rather than integrating it in the text. I would accept your suggestion is the second place where the term is explained in the text, for example, يمكن ترجمة النصوص بشكل أفضل من خلال تحرير النص قبل ترجمته آليا.
Point 3: accepted
Point 4: you haven’t justified your preference for الشامل
Point 5: We referred to the same article and I think أنماط محددة is more accurate.
Point 6: تحريره بعد ترجمته is more accurate than your suggestion or our first translation
Point 7: No preference
Point 8: Based on Dr. Newman view, I would accept it.
Point 9: I though I did.
Point 10: They have the same function
Point 11, 12 and 13: accepted
Point 14: We don’t think your suggestion is accurate.
Point 15: accepted
Point 16 and 17: accepted
Point 18: you mean والذي لا يتأتي, accepted.
19
وجدنا أنه علينا من باب التوضيح للقارئ أن نذكر أن اعتيادي وسريع أو كامل وسريع هي مستويات للتحرير اللاحق، ولا نجد فرقا بين "في إطار خدمات المفوضية" وبين "بناءا على خدمات المفوضية".
أما بالنسبة للترتيب فيبدو لنا أن كليهما صحيح.
 
  
25
لغات معينة قد تحتمل وجود أكثر من لغتين في نفس الوقت
بينما ما يشير إليه النص هو زوج من اللغات أي لغتين كالعربية والإنجليزية مثلا
أو الإنجليزية والفرنسية
26
مصدر النص قد سبق تحريره قبل ترجمته
مصدر النص قد تم تحريره من قبل
نجد أن موقع كلمة سبق المقترحة قد أحدث بعض الغموض خاصة عندما قرآنها لأول مرة لكن بعد قرآتها لمرتين وجدنا أنكم أردتم القول:
مصدر النص قد تم تحريره مسبقا أو سابقا
ولكن اضافتكم لكلمة "ترجمته" قد حتم عليكم وضع "سبق" في وسط الجملة.
وعلى كل حال فإن كلمة ترجمته غير مذكورة في النص الأصلي وهي مفهومة من السياق ولذلك أظن أن "مصدر النص قد تم تحريره مسبقاً" توفي بالغرض.
بالنسبة للنقاط الأخرى المتعلقة بالمسافة بين الكلمات ،والهمزة، ونحوه فسنعمل بالتأكيد على تعديلها ..
نشكركم جدا على اقتراحاتكم الطيبة وحظا موفقاً.
thread_title:  Translator's Response