Document:

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                                                                    Exhibit 10.4

                             EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT

     Agreement made as of April 16, 1998 between Joseph M. Feig, residing at
5910 Pat Avenue, City of Woodland Hills, State of California, referred to in
this agreement as "JMF", and DeskTalk Systems, Inc. (DSI), a corporation
organized and existing under the laws of the State of California with its
principal place of business located at 19401 South Vermont Avenue, Suite F-100,
City of Torrance, State of California, referred to in this agreement as "DSI".

     In consideration of the mutual covenants and promises of the parties, DSI
and JMF agree as follows:

                                   Section I
                                  Employment

     JMF accepts employment by DSI in an executive capacity, Chief Financial
Officer, subject to the terms and conditions of this agreement.  This agreement
is for personal services and is non-assignable.

                                  Section II
                              Term of Employment

     This agreement and the employment shall commence on April 16, 1998, and
continue for a period of one year.  The term shall automatically be extended for
an additional period of one year at the end of the Term, unless not less than
sixty days prior to the expiration of the term of this Agreement, either party
notifies the other party in writing that it intends not to renew the Agreement.
If the Agreement is not renewed neither party shall incur any further obligation
to the other at the end of the term.

                                  Section III
                                 Duties of JMF

     JMF will serve DSI faithfully and to the best of JMS's ability under the
direction of the President and/or the board of directors of DSI. JMF shall
devote JMF's entire productive time, energy, ability, and attention to the
performance of the duties agreed on to be performed by JMF throughout the term
of this employment agreement. JMF shall not directly or indirectly render any
services of a business, commercial, or professional nature to any person or
organization other than DSI for compensation during the term of this agreement.
JMF shall be present at the Torrance facility on a full-time basis, unless
agreed otherwise.

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                                  Section IV
                                 Compensation

     Base.  JMF's base salary shall be at a rate of thirteen thousand dollars
     -----
($13,000) per month, payable according to DSI's standard employee wage payment
policy.  Said policy may be changed from time to time in the discretion of DSI.
Said base salary may be reviewed for the purpose of increasing same, at any time
during the Term of this Agreement or any renewal thereof.  It is anticipated
that said review for increases will occur the annual anniversary of the
Agreement.

     Incentive Compensation.  JMF shall be paid on a quarterly basis up to
     ----------------------
twenty-five percent of his quarterly base salary.  Incentive compensation shall
be based fifty percent on the company meeting its revenue objectives as compared
to plan as approved by the Board of Directors, and fifty percent on management
objectives as defined by the President of DSI.

     If JMF shall fail or unable to perform the services required, because of
any physical or mental infirmity, and such failure or inability shall continue
for thirty consecutive days, DSI will have the continuing right during the
continuance of such disability to cancel the remainder of this contract, and
terminate JMF's employ.  If DSI terminates the Agreement pursuant to this
paragraph, DSI shall continue to pay base compensation and health benefits for a
period of thirty (30) days.

                                   Section V
                        Employee's Services as Director

     JMF consents to serve as a director of DSI, if elected or appointed,
without further compensation.  JMF may decline such appointment or election if
DSI does not maintain Directors and Officers insurance coverage that
specifically includes JMF as a named insured.

                                  Section VI
                                  Termination

     Termination by JMF.  JMF may terminate this agreement at any time with
     ------------------
thirty days advance notice.  So long as JMF continues to perform his duties
through the date of termination, DSI agrees to continue to pay JMF pursuant to
the compensation schedule above until the date of termination.

     Termination by DSI.  DSI may terminate this agreement pursuant to Section
     ------------------
II and/or Section IV(c).  DSI shall have "cause" to terminate JMF hereunder upon
(i) the willful and continued failure by JMF to substantially perform his duties
hereunder and (other than any such failure resulting from JMF's incapacity due
to physical or mental illness), after written notice is delivered by DSI that
specifically identifies the manner in

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which DSI believes JMF has not substantially performed his duties and failure
continues uncured for seven (7) business day, (ii) the willful engaging by JMF
in misconduct which is materially injurious to DSI, monetarily or otherwise
(including, but not limited to, conduct that constitutes competitive activity)
and the same remains uncured seven (7) business days after written notice to
cure is given by DSI, (iii) conviction of a felony, or (iv) failure to utilize
the DSI Headquarters facility as his base of operation. For purposes of this
paragraph no act, of failure to act, on JMF's part shall be considered "willful"
unless done, or omitted to be done, by him not in good faith and without
reasonable belief that his action or omission was in the best interest of DSI.
DSI shall have the right to terminate JMF for cause with the payment of one
month's full base compensation and car allowance (if in existence), payment for
any accrued vacation at the existing base pay rate and the continuation of any
DSI-paid insurance coverage for a period of thirty (30) days from the
termination date. If DSI breaches or terminates this Agreement without cause
and, not pursuant to Section II and/or Section IV(c), then DSI shall pay JMF, in
one lump sum or as they would otherwise come due without mitigation or offset,
the greater of either (a) six months base salary or (2) the remaining base
salary due as if this Agreement were to conclude at the end of the current term.
Termination without cause shall be deemed to occur if both of the following
occur (1) a change in the CEO of the company after April 1999 or a merger or
consolidation and (2) JMF's title, pay or position is downgraded without JMF's
approval.

                                  Section VII
                           Return of DSI's Property

     On termination of this agreement, regardless of how termination is
effected, or whenever requested by DSI, JMF shall immediately return to DSI all
of DSI's property, including without limitation all computer equipment issued,
customer lists and prospect lists, used in rendering services or otherwise, that
is in JMF's possession or under JMF's control.

                                 Section VIII
                        Use of Confidential Information

     It is understood between the parties that, during the term of the
employment, JMF will be dealing with the confidential information that DSI's
property used in the course of its business. All documents that JMF prepares, or
confidential information that might be given to JMF in the course of the
employment, are the exclusive property of DSI and shall remain in DSI's
possession. JMF shall treat as confidential any information obtained by JMF
concerning techniques, methods, systems, prices, plans or policies. JMF agrees
that JMF will not during JMF's employment, or at any time subsequently, disclose
to anyone, directly or indirectly, any of such confidential information, or use
them for any reason or purpose whatsoever other than in the course of his
employment with DSI.

                                  Section IX
                                Other Benefits

     JMF shall be entitled to all benefits normally afforded regular employees
of DSI or any other benefit mutually agreed to between DSI and JMF and reduced
to writing.

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                                   Section X
                              General Provisions

     Complete Agreement.  The parties agree that this agreement is the complete
     ------------------
and exclusive statement of the agreement between the parties, which supersedes
and merges all prior proposals, understandings and all other agreements, oral or
written, between the parties relating to this agreement. Excluding the
previously executed Confidentiality Agreement. In addition the Board has
tendered certain stock options to JMF.

     Representation by Counsel.  JMF has been represented by counsel and this
     -------------------------
agreement was drafted by both DSI and JMF. JMF understands that the General
Counsel of DSI works solely for and owes his duty of loyalty strictly to DSI.
JMF has not relied on any statements made by the General Counsel of DSI in
regards to his decision to enter into this Agreement.

     Amendment.  This agreement may not be modified, altered or amended except
     ---------
by written instrument duly executed by the authorized representatives of each of
the parties.

     Waiver.  The waiver or failure of either party to exercise in any respect
     ------
any right provided for in this agreement shall not be deemed a waiver of any
further right under this agreement.

     Severability.  If any provision of this agreement is invalid, illegal or
     ------------
unenforceable under any applicable statute or rule of law, it is to that extent
to be deemed omitted. The remainder of the agreement shall be valid and
enforceable to the maximum extent possible.

     Governing Law and Jurisdiction.  This agreement and performance hereunder
     ------------------------------
shall be governed by the laws of the State of California.

     If any action shall be brought pursuant to or arising out of this
Agreement, the prevailing party shall be entitled to its reasonable costs and
expenses including reasonable attorney fees and costs.

     IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have executed this agreement.

Dated as of April 16, 1998

DESKTALK SYSTEMS, INC.

By: /s/ David J. Kaufman               /s/ Joseph M. Feig
    -----------------------------      ------------------------
     David J. Kaufman, President           Joseph M. Feig

                                       4<PAGE>

                                                                    Exhibit 10.5

                             Employment Agreement

     Agreement made as of April 16, 1999 between David J. Kaufman, residing at
2245 239th Street in the City of Torrance, State of California, referred to in
this agreement as DJK, and DeskTalk Systems, Inc., a corporation organized and
existing under the laws of the State of California with its principal place of
business located at 19401 South Vermont Avenue, Suite F-100, City of Torrance,
State of California, referred to in this agreement as DSI.

     In consideration of the mutual covenants and promises of the parties, DSI
and DJK agree as follows:

                                   Section I
                                  Employment

     DJK accepts employment by DSI in an executive capacity, Chief Technology
Officer, subject to the terms and conditions of this agreement. This agreement
is for personal services and is non-assignable.

                                  Section II
                              Term of Employment

     This agreement and the employment shall commence on April 16, 1999, and
continue for a period of one year. The Term shall automatically be extended for
an additional period of one year at the end of the Term, unless not less than
ninety days prior to the expiration of the term of this Agreement, either party
notifies the other party in writing that it intends not to renew the Agreement.
If the Agreement is not renewed by DSI, then DJK shall receive forty-five
thousand dollars ($45,000) as a one-time severance payment. Other than the above
severance arrangement, upon a non-renewal of this Agreement neither party shall
incur any further obligation to the other at the end of the term.

                                  Section III
                                 Duties of DJK

     DJK will serve DSI faithfully and to the best of DJK's ability under the
direction of the President and/or the board of directors of DSI. DJK shall
devote DJK's entire productive time, energy, ability, and attention to the
performance of the duties agreed on to be performed by DJK throughout the term
of this employment agreement. DJK shall not directly or indirectly render any
services of a business, commercial, or professional nature to any person or
organization other than DSI, whether for compensation or

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otherwise, during the term of this agreement. DJK shall be facility on a full-
time basis, unless agreed otherwise. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary,
Section III shall not prohibit DJK from serving and being compensated as a
Director, Advisor and/or Consultant for any other entity that is not, directly
or indirectly, competitive with DSI.

                                  Section IV
                                 Compensation

     (a)  Base. DJK's base salary shall be at a rate of fifteen thousand dollars
          ($15,000) per month, payable according to DSI's standard employee wage
          payment policy. Said policy may be changed from time to time in the
          discretion of DSI. Said base salary may be reviewed for the purpose of
          increasing same, at any time during the Term of this Agreement.

     (b)  Incentive Compensation. DJK shall be eligible for incentive
          compensation of seventy-two thousand -dollars ($72,000) per year.
          Incentive compensation shall be paid, if earned, on a quarterly basis.
          Fifty percent (50%) of said incentive Compensation shall be based upon
          targets established in the current years budget approved by the Board
          of Directors, as amended from time to time, and the other fifty
          percent (50%) shall be based upon meeting management based objectives.
          At the end of each quarter, the CEO shall recommend the amount of
          incentive compensation to be paid to DJK to the Board of Directors
          Compensation Committee and/or the full Board of Directors for further
          action.

     (c)  If DJK shall fail or be unable to perform the services required,
          because of any physical or mental infirmity, and such failure or
          inability shall continue for thirty consecutive days, DSI will have
          the continuing right to cancel the remainder of this contract, and
          terminate DJKs employ. If DSI terminates the Agreement pursuant to
          this paragraph, DSI shall continue to pay base compensation and health
          benefits for a period of thirty (30) days.

                                   Section V
                           DJK's Service as Director

     DJK consents to serve as a director of DSI, if elected or appointed,
without further compensation.

                                  Section VI
                                  Termination

     (a)  Termination by DJK. DJK may terminate this agreement at any time with
          thirty days advance notice. So long as DJK continues to perform his
          duties through the date of termination, DSI agrees to continue to pay
          DJK pursuant to the compensation schedule above until the date of
          termination.

     (b)  Termination by DSI. DSI may terminate this agreement pursuant to
          Section III and/or Section IV (c). Further, DSI may terminate this
          Agreement for a material breach of this Agreement. A material breach

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          shall include DM failure, to substantially perform his duties. DSI
          shall provide written notice to DJK of such failure to perform. If DJK
          fails to correct this failure to perform within ten (IO) business
          days, and such failure to perform is materially injurious to the
          business of DSI, DSI shall have the right to terminate DJK with the
          payment of one month's full base compensation and car allowance (if in
          existence), payment for any accrued vacation at the existing base pay
          rate and the continuation of any DSI-paid insurance coverage for a
          period of thirty (30) days from the termination date. If DSI
          terminates this Agreement without cause and, not pursuant to Section
          III and/or Section IV (c), then DSI shall pay DJK, in one lump sum or
          as they would otherwise come due, either (a) six months base salary or
          (2). the remaining base salary due as if this Agreement were to
          conclude at the end of the current term and in addition continue to
          pay for ninety (90) days the benefits available to DJK prior to DJKs
          termination.

                                  Section VII
                           Return of DSI's Property

     On termination of this agreement, regardless of how termination is
effected, or whenever requested by DSI, DJK shall immediately return to DSI all
of DSI's property, including without limitation all computer equipment issued,
customer lists and prospect lists, used in rendering services or otherwise, that
is in DJK's possession or under DJK's control.

                                 Section VIII
                        Use of Confidential Information

     It is understood between the parties that, during the term of the
employment, DJK will be dealing with the confidential information that is DSI's
property used in the course of its business. All documents that DJK prepares, or
confidential information that might be given -to DJK in the course of the
employment, are the exclusive property of DSI and shall remain in DSI's
possession. DJK shall treat as confidential any information obtained by DJK
concerning techniques, methods, systems, prices, plans or policies. DJK agrees
that DJK will not during DJK's employment, or at any time subsequently, disclose
to anyone, directly or indirectly, any of such confidential information, or use
them for any reason or purpose whatsoever other than in the course of his
employment with DSI.

                                  Section IX
                                Other Benefits

     DJK shall be entitled to all benefits normally afforded regular employees
of DSI.

                                   Section X
                                  Non-Compete

     (a)  If the Agreement is not renewed by DJK, DJK voluntarily terminates his
          employment with DSI, or DJK is terminated for cause then DJK agrees

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          that for a period of two years from the date of termination of this
          Agreement DJK shall not:

          (i)  work for, perform work for, own in whole or in part, manage,
               operate, control or participate. in the ownership, management
               operation or control of, or provide consulting or advisory
               services to, any individual, partnership, firm, corporation or
               institution engaged in Competitive Business (as defined below),
               directly or indirectly, within any Restricted Area (as defined
               below);

          (ii) employ or retain, or offer to employ or retain, any person in any
               capacity, where such person was employed or retained in any
               capacity by DSI at any time during DJK's employ by DSI or during
               the non-compete term, or assist another person or entity in
               accomplishing the same. Notwithstanding the above, this paragraph
               shall not apply to any person that has severed their relationship
               with DSI for at least four months.

     (b)  If the Agreement is not renewed by DSI, or DSI terminates this
          Agreement without cause then in consideration for any termination
          benefits paid by DSI to DJK, DJK agrees that for a period of six
          months from the date of termination of this Agreement DJK shall not:

          (i)  work for, perform work for, own in whole or in part, manage,
               operate, control or participate in the ownership, management,
               operation or control of, or provide consulting or advisory
               services to, any individual, partnership, firm, corporation or
               institution engaged in Competitive Business (as defined below),
               directly or indirectly, within any Restricted Area (as defined
               below);

          (ii) employ or retain, or offer to employ or retain, any person in any
               capacity, where such person was employed or retained in any
               capacity by DSI at any time during DJKs employ by DSI or during
               the non-compete term, or assist another person or entity in
               accomplishing the same. Notwithstanding the above, this paragraph
               shall not apply to any person that has severed their relationship
               with DSI for at least four months.

     (c)  "Competitive Business" shall mean INS, Concord Communications, and
          Quallaby, provided, however, that with sixty (60) days prior notice
          DSI may amend the term Competitive Business from time to time to add
          business or enterprises that: (i) provides, or anticipates providing,
          software or services for historical network performance monitoring and
          (ii) are clear and direct competitors of the Company.

     (d)  "Restricted Area" shall mean any geographic area in which the DSI is
          engaged in business, or has a business plan under which it planned to
          engage in business, at the time DJK's employment is terminated. Any

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          action performed outside of a Restricted Area which is intended to or
          would reasonably be expected to have an economic impact within a
          Restricted Area, shall be deemed to have been committed within a
          Restricted Area.

                                  Section XI
                              General Provisions

     (a)  Complete Agreement. The parties agree that this agreement is the
          complete and exclusive statement of the agreement between the parties,
          which supersedes and merges all prior proposals, understandings and
          all other agreements, oral or written, between the parties relating to
          this agreement, excepting the Confidentiality Agreement previously
          executed by DJK.

     (b)  Representation by Counsel. DJK has been advised to seek legal counsel
          in the review, and prior to, execution of this agreement. DJK
          understands that this agreement has been drafted by the General
          Counsel of the Company, and that the General Counsel of the Company
          works solely for and owes his duty of loyalty strictly to the Company.

     (c)  Amendment. This agreement may not be modified, altered or amended
          except by written instrument duly executed by the authorized
          representatives of each of the parties.

     (d)  Waiver. The waiver or failure of either party to exercise in any
          respect any right provided for in this agreement shall not be deemed a
          waiver of any further right under this agreement.

     (e)  Severability. If any provision of this agreement is invalid, illegal
          or unenforceable under any applicable statute or rule of law, it is to
          that extent to be deemed omitted. The remainder of the agreement shall
          be valid and enforceable to the maximum extent possible.

     (f)  Governing Law and Jurisdiction. This agreement and performance
          hereunder shall be governed by the laws of the State of California.

     In witness whereof, the parties have executed this agreement as of April
16, 1999.

DeskTalk Systems, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By: /s/ MICHAEL MCCOY                        /s/ DAVID J. KAUFMAN
   --------------------------------         ---------------------------------
   By: Michael McCoy, President             By:  David J. Kaufman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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