# Talk:Roman campaigns in Germania (12 BC – AD 16)

Can't find this exact phrase in many RS, so I assume it's a WP:NDESC descriptive title, in which case the capitalization should be, "Early imperial campaigns in Germania". (t · c) buidhe 04:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I figured it'd be capitalized the same way we would referring to "the Roman Empire" as opposed to "an empire" ("Early [Roman] Imperial campaigns into Germania") SpartaN (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Roman campaigns in Germania (12 BC – AD 16)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 15:31, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:31, 27 June 2021 (UTC)


### Status query
What's the status of your review Sturmvogel 66. If you wish to abandon the review it is best to say so rather than leave it hanging. A. C. Santacruz  ⁂  Talk 23:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Also willing to take this up if Sturm is busy. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Iazyges it's looking that way if you feel up to it still SpartaN (talk) 19:24, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


### Criteria
No DAB links Y
No dead links Y
No missing citations N


### Discussion
He accompanied Varus, who was in Germania with the Legions XVII, XVIII, and XIX to finish the conquest of Germania. needs a citation.
Velleius Paterculus, Compendium of Roman History 2, 109, 5; Cassius Dio, Roman History 55, 28, 6–7 the link no longer sends it where it is supposed to go I believe, move adding a both to the Biblio for standardization, and fix the link for Velleius Paterculus, probably best to the Penelope UChicago site.
I probably forgot to cite Arminius accompanying Varus because I just assumed it was obvious in order for him to carry out the "betrayal" in the first place. Is fixed now. Also added primary sources to bibliography. SpartaN (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)


### Prose Suggestions
Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.


#### Lede
I've made some edits, feel free to revert them.
Tensions between the Germanic tribes and the Romans began as early as 17 BC A strict date of 17 BC is not supported in the body or by some other source, suggest changing to 17/16 BC
with Clades Lolliana, suggest with the Clades Lolliana
the tribes Sicambri, Usipetes, and Tencteri suggest the Sicambri, Usipetes, and Tencteri tribes.
 he was celebrated as being the Roman who traveled farthest east suggest removing being for being somewhat awkward, or else as being to for being, if you'd prefer that.
who was an ally of Rome and leader of the Cherusci. suggest an erstwhile ally of Rome and leader of the Cherusci.
Roman expansion into Germania Magna had stopped as a result suggest removing had
The Roman Empire would launch no other major incursion into Germany until Marcus Aurelius (r. 161–180) during the Marcomannic Wars.[2] suggest moving this in its entirety to the aftermath section.


#### Background
In 27 BC, Augustus assumed power hard to put an explanation of Augustus' power in a few words, but suggest something to the effect of him being the first emperor; it isn't perfectly correct, but it meets WP:SS.
punitive expeditions to punish intruders suggest punitive expeditions against incursions.
improvements including those to the Roman road network in 20 BC by Agrippa were made suggest improvments were made to the infrastructure, including those to the Roman road network in 20 BC by Aggripa.


#### Campaigns of Drusus
including:
Argentoratum (Strasburg, France)
Moguntiacum (Mainz, Germany)
Castra Vetera (Xanten, Germany) suggest changing to including Argentoratum (Strasburg, France), Moguntiacum (Mainz, Germany), and Castra Vetera (Xanten, Germany)
Drusus first saw action following an incursion by the Sicambri and the Usipetes into Gaul. He repelled the attack and then launched a retaliatory attack across the Rhine. suggest Drusus first saw action following an incursion by the Sicambri and the Usipetes into Gaul, which he repelled before launching a retaliatory attack across the Rhine.
 and then returned to Rome. As he had done before, Drusus returned to Rome at the end of the campaign season seems somewhat superfluous, perhaps  and then returned to Rom, as he had done before at the end of the campaign season
'conquering with difficulty the territory traversed and defeating the forces that attacked him only after considerable bloodshed' is there a particular reason for using single quotes here? To establish that it is paraphrased?
I've done all the other prose suggestions but this and the 40,000 men figure to Aftermath. Going to check who that is a paraphrase or quote of and get back to you. SpartaN (talk) 20:49, 27 September 2021 (UTC)


#### Campaigns of Tiberius, Ahenobarbus and Vinicius
but Cassiodorus writing in the 6th century AD asserts that all Germans living between the Elbe and the Rhine had submitted to Roman power this seems like it should be and Cassiodorus more than but Cassiodorus
The military situation in Germany was very different from what was suggested by imperial propaganda suggest However, the military situation in Germany was very different from what was suggested by imperial propaganda
In 3 BC, Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus was the commander in Germany, whom Augustus appointed 3 years before (6 BC),  suggest Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus was appointed as the commander in Germany by Augustus in 6 BC, and three years later, in 3 BC,
Under his command were constructed causeways suggest Under his command causeways were constructed
The elite of the Cherusci tribe came to be special friends suggest changing special friends to close allies
he called the attack off and concluded peace with Maroboduus who is he here? Augustus? Tiberius? Should specify.


#### Prelude
Following Tiberius's departure to Illyricum, Augustus appointed Publius Quinctilius Varus to the German command. It was assumed that the province of Germania Magna had been pacified, and so Varus had begun integrating the region into the empire. There was a risk of rebellion during the military subjugation of a province, so Augustus had to appoint an experienced officer like Varus for the job. As the main military operations were thought to be over, a brilliant military leader was not considered necessary suggest reorganizing this a bit, to Although it was assumed that the province of Germania Magna had been pacified, and Rome had begun integrating the region into the empire, there was a risk of rebellion during the military subjugation of a province. Following Tiberius's departure to Illyricum, Augustus appointed Publius Quinctilius Varus to the German command, as he was an experienced officer, but not the great military leader a serious threat would warrant.
Arminius of the Cherusci. Arminius was considered an ally of Rome, and had fought in the Roman army before suggest Arminius, who Rome considered an ally, and who had fought in the Roman army before.
 On their way back to Xanten suggest using the Roman name Castra Vetera, as neither is really a household name.


#### Victory of Arminius
Wells and Abdale suggest Historians Wells and Abdale
Varus must have realized the severity of his situation and killed himself with his sword suggest removing must have


#### Campaigns of Tiberius
 However, the campaigns did, combined with Rome's alliance to the Marcommanic federation of Marbod, effectively prevent the anti-Roman Germanic coalition led by Arminius from crossing the Rhine to invade Gaul and Italy somewhat convoluted, suggest However, the campaign, combined with Rome's alliance to Maroboduus, prevented the Germanic coalition, led by Arminius, from crossing the Rhine to invade Gaul and Italy.


#### Campaigns of Germanicus
or that Tiberius found it necessary to stop Roman expansion suggest changing or that to or if
Rome handed annexed lands over to friendly chieftains and withdrew from most of Germany. They considered German lands too poor for annexation and the people too wild suggest Rome handed annexed lands over to friendly chieftains and withdrew from most of Germany, as they considered German lands too poor for annexation and the people too wild
not to expand Rome's borders suggest rather than to expand Rome's borders


#### Aftermath
Suggest mentioning the 40,000 casualties here, to avoid having to link in the infobox.
Did the bold fixes so far, I will wait for you to finish and do the other prose suggestions all at once or explain why certain ones are better as are (I am mostly just poor with word order so almost all will probably be better as you suggest). SpartaN (talk) 19:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@SpartaN: That is all of my suggestions. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
@Iazyges: Alright I did all the prose suggestions, attributed the quote as cited by Wells (and incidentally Abdale among others like Lindsay Powell) about the campaign of Drusus in 9 BC. The 40,000 figure appears in a couple sources as an estimate but there's no real breakdown of casualties or manpower on either side beyond the Battle of Teutoburg Forest so I'm unsure it's worth it to include in Aftermath without that (i.e. it'd be more of a standalone sentence than an explanatory paragraph). SpartaN (talk) 21:12, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear and Proffet123: While the 2003 Wells book cited throughout the article does state that Varus and other officers committed suicide (see Google Books search result), I don't think the KIA template should point to the article on suicide. If appropriate for an infobox KIA mention, I think it would look better in parentheses after "KIA". Eric talk 12:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

My only concern is that the article does not state Varus committed suicide, therefore the infobox can't state that. If the information can be added, appropriately, to the article with secondary sources, then I see no problem with the infobox indicating suicide. --Kansas Bear (talk) 12:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
I think you'll find it down in the section on Arminius. Eric talk 12:53, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I found it. I searched for "suicide". Meh --Kansas Bear (talk) 12:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)