# Talk:Panzer Dragoon (video game)

Wasn't Panzer Dragoon (One) the first game in gaming industry ever to top 1 million dollar development budget? --Abdull 09:37, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not even close, Dragon's Lair 1983 was. (Untagged comment by 67.167.117.10 - ThomasWinwood 11:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

In case anyone wonders there were three runs of Panzer Dragoon Saga printed, the initial run was only 6,000 copies. The later runs were 12,000 each. Since someone wondered about this earlier I actually dug out the press release issued by Sega shortly after the first run sold out.
It also appears the original run came with black disc sleeves while the later had white disc sleeves.
REDWOOD CITY, Calif.--May 14, 1998--Enter a world of constant strife and struggle, an Empire in ruins and at the mercy of relentless rebels.
Look through the eyes of Edge, a young hunter, as he witnesses evil rebels murder his mentor and abduct Azel, a young girl. Watch as they laugh at his tears. Here begins the ultimate quest for revenge. This is the story of "Panzer Dragoon Saga(TM)," a role-playing game (RPG) with action/adventure elements, created by Sega(R) of America for Sega Saturn(R).
"Panzer Dragoon Saga" sold out in its first week at retail. Sega has processed re-orders to fulfill consumer demand.
As Edge, your only means of defense is your determination and a mythical dragon with keen fighting powers and the ability to morph to better combat enemies. This quest opens the door to more than retribution, it unlocks the secrets of the ancient Empire -- the secrets that could end years of unanswered questions.
"Panzer Dragoon Saga" takes gamers through war-torn Empires with miles of forests, secret underground caverns, ancient ruins and towns. For the first time in the series, gamers have the freedom to explore the 3D worlds with full unrestricted 360-degree movement, encountering numerous enemies. A new and innovative combat engine allows players to fight all enemies, including a savage Baldor Queen and swarms of hideous flying Nanyds, in real-time, bringing a new level of action to this RPG.
Through the new real-time combat engine, Edge and his enemies now attack simultaneously using weapons, lasers or magic spells. The dragon has numerous attack mechanisms and can rotate around the enemies, searching for hidden weak points. However, the enemies are just as adroit with their own arsenal of attacks, poisons and spells.
When the going gets really tough, the dragon has a secret weapon to further assist in battle. Through morphing, the dragon changes shape in real-time and sharpens its abilities in four areas: "Defense" adds extra armor to the dragon; "Attack" allows the dragon to grow three deadly prongs on his head to increase his laser's fire power; "Speed" lengthens the dragon for a more aerodynamic shape; "Spiritual" gives the dragon magical powers to blast hordes of enemies. It is up to the player to "size up" the enemy and decide on the best morphing strategy for the dragon before engaging in battle.
Also a first in the "Panzer Dragoon" series, gamers can guide Edge through all worlds on or off the dragon, without pre-determined paths, to uncover secrets in the unexplored areas of the Empire with a wider panoramic field and complete freedom. Edge can now enjoy complete interactivity with everything he encounters -- strolling into stores he passes in town to buy weapons or trade items, speaking with all characters he meets to gain clues or information and eavesdropping on townspeople's conversations. Players can read books Edge buys, many of which reveal clues of where to go, or hints on how to better survive the city he may be visiting and unlock mysteries behind the other Panzer games.
"`Panzer Dragoon Saga' is an interactive epic adventure played out on four discs," said Andrew Stein, marketing manager, Sega of America. "All of the mystery surrounding the dragon and characters in the previous `Panzer Dragoon' games are now revealed throughout this role-playing experience."
No stone should be left unturned in this expansive adventure. The storyline branches and players decide the length and depth of the game depending on which path they take, whom they meet, the time of day they visit a world and what they uncover based on their level of experience. At certain times of day, some characters may be more willing to talk and give information than others, so players must take advantage of the massive replay value to find all clues and secrets.
To further expand the replay value and to keep gamers guessing, various hidden elements or "Easter eggs" can be uncovered, including three hidden dragons, one of which is the dragon from the original "Panzer Dragoon." Three mini games can be unlocked in which gamers can have racing or shooting competitions with the characters. Also unique to "Panzer Dragoon Saga" is a "tamogachi" feature in which players score extra points based on the level of love and care given to the dragon throughout the game.
"Panzer Dragoon Saga" is available nationwide for a suggested retail price of $49.99.

Should the games not be given separate pages? There seems to be a web of redirects to this page; this seems misleading - Panzer Dragoon Zwei is not Panzer Dragoon. ThomasWinwood 11:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Articles on a series are not unusual. Whether it's merited in this case or not is an entirely different story. Nifboy 18:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi I was wondering i it would be a good idea to maybe put a summary of the games in the article. Like all the games main goals is to destroy a tower, free the world from the will of the ancients and the heresy program etc

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BetacommandBot (talk) 16:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Can we please use the Japanese cover with Moebius' artwork? (Momus (talk) 18:39, 9 March 2010 (UTC))

Nice work on the article. In response to a request at the VG Wikiproject's talk page, I have decided to come here. Here's how I would review this article to pass a GA nomination:

Lead section - needs to summarize the article, and be at least 3 to 4 paragraphs
Plot section - looks good.
Development section - looks good.
Gameplay section - also looks good as well.
Release section - may need to be included in the article.
Reception section - also looks good as well. However, you may need to include reviewers as well to explain unfamiliar readers and is the proper way of sourcing (i.e. "Joe blah of IGN" instead of just "IGN").
References - may need to include links
Copyedit - This article must undergo a thorough copyediting.
Other than that, I think the article looks good. Any other suggestions or ideas would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The references in the reception section need some work, such as volume, issue, page number, and author if possible.  In their current state, there's no way to know where the information is. —Torchiest talkedits 22:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
For most of the 1995 reviews I used the Mobygames page for the game ([1]) so it may take time to find some of these details. I've seen a scan of the gamepro review, I added the page number but no reviewer name was mentionned.Folken de Fanel (talk) 22:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Take a look at Template:Video game reviews.  I added it and a couple scores from the sources you've got, but try to put them all in it.  There are lots of common review sources that have their own parameters already set up. —Torchiest talkedits 12:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for that, I'll work on this section a bit more ;) Folken de Fanel (talk) 15:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Something else that would be good to do is separate out all the various reviews into their own paragraphs or sentences.  Right now, you've got the line "There was some criticism over the game's lack of diversity in weapons, it's predetermined progression and its overall difficulty, however most publications presented it as one of the Saturn's system seller.[28][29][30][31][32]".  Compressing five different complete reviews into one sentence like that is missing out on a lot of great information.  It would be nice to get a more specific understanding of what each reviewer thought. —Torchiest talkedits 19:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
I have expanded the lead and the review section (I found the magazines and was able to include specific content from each reviews, and I improved the refs as well) Also added reviewers names, and scores. I feel the article is ready for a GAN.Folken de Fanel (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Panzer Dragoon/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: David Fuchs (talk · contribs) 14:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC) — probably going to get to next week, later than planned. 17:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

David Fuchs did you forget about this review? (t · c) buidhe 06:39, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
It's still in progress. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 15:44, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Friendly bystander question, you still looking at this one? QuicoleJR (talk) 18:51, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Overall, the article is in solid shape. Some comments as follows:

General:
Uncited: There is no story; the display features a dragon with rider and static enemies and obstacles that intermittently appear around them and can be dodged or shot. All images that can be displayed are built into the game's LCD display, showing as black silhouettes against either a blank background (on the R-Zone) or a single static background image taken from the first level of the original Panzer Dragoon (on the Pocket Arcade).
Next to nothing has been written about this throw-away spin-off outside of fan sites and forums. I can attach a YouTube video of the game being played, if that would help? I could also just completely cut it from the article; it may not meet the notability guidelines. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
I think my main issue is the reception section, which gives a lot of pull quotes rather than summarizing the pros and cons of each one quickly. (The Orta section seems generally better than the others.) Also, is there any more legacy information about the series as a whole?
Surely it does both? Each paragraph begins with a sentence or two "summarizing the pros and cons" of the critical reception for the game. The PD section has ~70 words of critical summary, with ~30 words of quotation; The Zwei section has ~80 words of critical summary, with ~30 words of quotation; The Saga section has ~110 words of critical summary, with ~20 words of quotation; the Orta section has ~70 words of critical summary, with ~20 words of quotation.
I think you're right, that this article could use more of a summary of the reception and retrospective view of the series. I've added a paragraph to the "Reception" section with a new source examining the series as a whole. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Are the topic sentences for each paragraph (e.g. Zwei was critically acclaimed upon release, with praise focusing on the cutting-edge graphics, gameplay refinements relative to the first game, and the continued strength of the art design, music, and atmosphere, though the low difficulty again received criticism.) supposed to be supported by the sources after them? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:52, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Yes, but I could also put a stack of citations to various reviews right after each of the summary sentences, if that seems warranted for verifiability? -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 20:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Since it's otherwise unclear what is being cited where, I think more precise citing would be helpful. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:42, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Done. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 21:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Media:
No issues.
References:
What makes PCInvasion, Wavemaster, and RocketBaby reliable sources?
PCInvasion has as much editorial oversight and accountability as most internet news sites (which isn't much). Wave-Master is a branch of Sega, so we can probably trust their statements about which soundtracks their own staff have worked on. RocketBaby is a tough one; I don't think that interview actually adds anything over the other interview at the end of the sentence, so I've cut it. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Given it's not been discussed at RSN or VG/S I'd say cut PCInvasion. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:52, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
In that case, I'll just cut the R-Zone game, which hasn't had enough published about it to satisfy the notability guidelines. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 20:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
You've got some inconsistent formatting (italicizing or not Eurogamer) and some CS1 errors in the references.
Fixed. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
I feel like given the amount of plot given for each game, it should probably be cited.
I'm counting ~250 words of plot summary total, hardly over the top for four games. WP:VG/PLOT says "Straightforward plot summary is assumed to be sourced to the game itself and thus does not require sources." -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Did a spot-check to statements attributed to refs 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 12, 18, 22, 31, 45, 49, 57, 63, 66, 72, and 74.
The instruction manual refers to the "Ancient Time", not the "Ancient Age", and doesn't adequately cover some of the content (genetic engineering the weapons, etc.)
The translators shifted to "Ancient Age" starting with Saga. The Orta manual e.g. uses "Ancient Age" and specifically describes the monsters as "bio-engineered creatures". I've added a citation to the Orta manual to that first paragraph. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Ref 2 and others has page numbers through the {{rp}} but other refs have it in the citation template. Any reason for this?
{{rp}} is for citing the same source repeatedly, but drawing attention to different pages each time. When a source is cited only once, the page numbers can be incorporated into the citation template. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
I feel like the use of primary sources for large chunks of the games section (for example, the Orta section) is inappropriate, in that we should be demonstrating through secondary sources what's so important about these entries.
I've added a citation to the Orta section. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Ref 3 doesn't really cover the ending boss levels stuff.
From the source: "In boss battles or showdowns with large enemies, you use the lock-on to target weak spots with multiple shots." -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
The prose is still going beyond what the source explicitly says (for example, it mentions the lock-on ability but it doesn't mention switching between a laser and machine gun, and it doesn't mention levels at all, nor the placement of the bosses at the end of them.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:42, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
That source specifically describes switching between the two firing modes (e.g. "The trade-off is that firing a burst of shots is much slower than tapping the attack button for single attacks."). I've added a source mentioning the level structure. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 21:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
But where does the citation mention a laser and machine gun? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 19:00, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Ref 31 doesn't seem to source the content attributed to it (Zwei's story bit.)
From the source (Futatsugi speaking): "Yamada-san was concentrating on Zwei while I was concentrating on Azel. In the beginning I was looking over both, but towards crunch time at the end of Saga development, Yamada-san was focusing on Zwei." -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 13:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
That's likewise going beyond what's the source. It doesn't mention the story becoming Yamada's sole responsibility, and it doesn't say Futatsugi was in charge of both game's narratives. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:42, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but, that's exactly what the sentence I quoted above says. It specifically does says that Futatsugi initially oversaw both games ("In the beginning I was looking over both...") and that Yamada became the leader on Zwei as the project progressed ("towards crunch time at the end of Saga development, Yamada-san was focusing on Zwei"). Earlier in the same paragraph, Futatsugi says, "he [Yamada] was the main guy on Zwei." -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 21:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 20:54, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

@David Fuchs: Hey, just checking to make sure you saw this. Looking forward to your further feedback. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 14:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
I've gone through another pass on the sourcing and I've found what I would consider similar issues with imprecision leading to verification issues. I'm still concerned by the use of primary sources, comprehensiveness, and the writing on the reception section. It's clear we're not going to see eye to eye on this so I'm failing and will let another reviewer do their own job evaluating. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 19:00, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

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