# Talk:Too Tough to Die

This review is transcluded from Talk:Too Tough to Die/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 03:39, 27 May 2014 (UTC)


### Images
File:Ramones - Too Tough to Die cover.jpg OK.
Considering all the images available on Commons, it may be possible to add more free images. Viriditas (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I would, but I don't see how any of them are really related to the subject other than the fact that it is the band playing. There only photograph close to this album's release date is a 1983 picture, but I believe that has more to do with the band's previous release rather than this one. If you have any suggestions on which image would fit well any the article please notify me.


### Infobox
OK. Viriditas (talk) 00:57, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


### Lead
This article is about the album by the Ramones. For the song by Zakk Wylde, see Mafia (Black Label Society album). For the CSI episode, see Too Tough to Die (CSI episode).
Per WP:2DABS, it might be helpful to create a separate dab page and only link to it from the heading.  A Google search of wikipedia.org shows there are a number of other potential candidates for that page. Viriditas (talk) 11:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 Done
 It was released on October 1, 1984, and is the first Ramones' record to feature Richie Ramone.
"...to feature Richie Ramone on drums." Viriditas (talk) 02:25, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
With ex-member Tommy Ramone producing, the recording process was similar to that of the band's debut album, Ramones.
I think it would help to mention the date of the debut album, especially for readers not familiar with the topic. Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 Done
Likewise, the style of music on the record resembles the band shifting their sound towards that which was on their earliest albums.
A bit wordy just to say they were going back to their roots. Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I think it should be fixed now.
Definitely improved. Viriditas (talk)
However, I'm still confused by the phrasing of "through composition"?  I've never heard that before.  Don't you just mean "compositionally"?  In other words: "Likewise, the record's style—both lyrically and compositionally—saw the band returning to their roots." No strong feelings on this. Viriditas (talk) 02:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
The photograph on the album cover, which features silhouettes of the band members, came about by mistake after photographer George DuBose's camera malfunctioned. Dubose would later cite this to be a "lucky" mistake.
You repeat the fact that it was a mistake twice in two sentences.   Why not just say that in the first sentence and delete the second sentence? "The photograph on the album cover was a "lucky" mistake after photographer George DuBose's camera malfunctioned and unintentionally shot the band members in silhouette."  Or something like that. Viriditas (talk) 00:01, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
It's still there. Viriditas (talk) 02:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
My bad, it's fixed now
Too Tough to Die borrows many elements used on 1983's Subterranean Jungle; this is demonstrated especially through the guitar riffs.
But what Erlewine said was that the album uses big guitar riffs from Subterranean Jungle, but makes them shorter and heavier.  That's slightly different than saying they borrowed the same element.  I think the main point here is to show their musical development, not to show that they used the same technique or style.  Christgau's comment that the the sound is "augmented rather than recycled" proves this point. Viriditas (talk) 21:37, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
This record marks the first time which bassist Dee Dee Ramone performs lead vocals, and is credited on two tracks.
You've got a stray "which" in that sentence; please remove it.  Also, try rewriting it for clarity: Bassist Dee Dee Ramone performs lead vocals for the first time on this album and receives vocal credits for two tracks." Or something like that. Viriditas (talk) 02:42, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
Despite the critical acclaim, the album proved unsuccessful in the US, being the band's lowest peaking record at that point in their career on the Billboard 200.
Does the source actually say that the album was unsuccessful in the US or is that an editorial interpretation?  In other words, is an album considered unsuccessful based solely on its regional chart?  The biographical source (from the same citation you used) says that "The album helped restore their artistic reputation", which I believe is one measure of success, but there are many others (such as its critical success mentioned in the previous sentence).  Can one also say, for example, that an album can be successful (artistically) but not chart well (financially)?  Can you quote the source here? Viriditas (talk) 03:47, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree. I didn't include the quote because I rewrote it as: Despite the critical acclaim, Too Tough to Die performed poorly in album sales, being the band's lowest peaking record at that point in their career on the Billboard 200.. Hopefully this clears things up.
It does, thanks. Viriditas (talk) 21:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Some of the above issues were not addressed, so I made the changes and copyedited for readability and removed several instances of redundancy and deleted the word "many" whenever I could find it.[1]  Feel free to revert anything you disagree with.  As a result, I have resolved the issues with the lead section. Viriditas (talk) 23:39, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


### Conception
This section includes "Recording and production" and "Photography" as subsections.  However, if you look at our featured album work,[2]  the use of a "conception" section is somewhat unusual, and in this case, unnecessary.  As you can see, our best articles include "Recording and production" and "Photography" sections by themselves, not as subsections.  "Photography" is often referred to as "Album cover" or "Packaging" or "artwork".  "Conception" in this instance is a synonym for "background" or even "concept".  However, because this section does not actually discuss background or conception (perhaps at one time it intended to do so) I would remove the section title entirely and just have second level headings for "Recording and production" and "Photography".  And although neither is required, I would also recommend changing "Photography" to "Cover art". Viriditas (talk) 05:44, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 Done


### Recording and production
Per MOS:Blockquote (and according to the instructions of the {{quote}} template you used) blockquotes do not contain quotation marks. I would also recommend moving "Johnny Ramone" out of the quote and adding something like "Johnny Ramone recalled" as a preface to the quote in the body, or lead into it some other way without mentioning his name at the end like a {{quotation}}. Viriditas (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
The entire album was recorded in a single session, described by Rolling Stone's Kurt Loder to be "recorded virtually live in the studio."
Loder 1984 doesn't say anything about a single session. Are you citing True 2005 for that bit of info?  If so, you can add it to the end of the sentence or after "session". Viriditas (talk) 23:49, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't know where i came up with that, so i just took it out.
Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 04:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
A similar process was used on the band's 1976 eponymous album, which was recorded over a period of seven days.
Is it important for us in this article to know how many days it took to record their previous album?  Seems a bit off-topic, no? It would be a nice juxtaposition if we knew how long this album took to record, but we don't, do we? Viriditas (talk) 03:40, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
 Removed and reworded
The album's lyrics were written mainly by guitarist Johnny Ramone and bassist Dee Dee Ramone, while lead singer Joey Ramone restrained from the process because he "wasn't feeling well" prior to recording.
"Restrained" is the wrong word here.  I tried to look up the source but the "preview" in Google Books doesn't give me access to it. You could say "refrained" from the process, but that sounds funny.  What about "lead singer Joey Ramone didn't participate in the writing he lyrics..." Viriditas (talk) 00:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
My mistake, should have read "did not'.  Good catch. Viriditas (talk) 02:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Since this method did not yield the results which they were expecting, Sire Records contacted the producers of 1978's Road to Ruin: Ed Stasium and ex-band member Tommy Ramone.
I guess the colon works, but I think this works better: "Since this method did not yield the results which they were expecting, Sire Records contacted Ed Stasium and ex-band member Tommy Ramone, the producers of 1978's Road to Ruin." I guess it's a stylistic choice. Viriditas (talk) 03:38, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Should there not be an em-dash in there? "Since this method did not yield the results which they were expecting, Sire Records contacted Ed Stasium and ex-band member Tommy Ramone—the producers of 1978's Road to Ruin."
Stylistically, you could use a colon, a comma, parentheses, or a dash.  The advantage of the comma is that it is the least intrusive of the four to the flow of the text. Dashes stop the reader and highlight important information.  The fact that these guys were producers is actually more of a parenthetical, but I often choose commas over parentheses because it doesn't interfere with the flow as much. YMMV. Viriditas (talk) 00:50, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
The album has less of a production value compared to their previous few albums, and the style of music leaned towards a more harsh sound because critics often disapproved of the sound quality on End Of The Century and Pleasant Dreams.
Let's clean this up a bit: "Too Tough to Die has less production value than previous recordings by the Ramones.  Because critics often disapproved of the sound quality on End Of The Century and Pleasant Dreams, the band leaned towards a harsher sound." Viriditas (talk) 04:00, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
 Done


### Cover art
The cover photo for the album was taken by George DuBose in a subway in Central Park, New York City, near the Central Park Zoo.
Who is George DuBose?  If he's a photographer, then say so.  If he's something else, then describe it. Viriditas (talk) 04:03, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
This concept was deemed by Johnny, who wanted the artwork to be a reference to A Clockwork Orange, a 1962 dystopian novella by Anthony Burgess which was adapted into a film in 1971.[9][11][12]
"This concept was deemed by Johnny" sounds very odd here.  Why not just state directly, "Johnny wanted the artwork to conceptually refer to A Clockwork Orange, a 1962 dystopian novella by Anthony Burgess which was adapted into a film in 1971."  Are the sources clear on whether Johnny was referring to the concept from the film adaptation or to the novel that the film is based upon? Viriditas (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
 Done, and no but I believe it was the film since the band is known for writing songs about movies. Nonetheless, it does not specify.
I think the bit about the novel should be reversed.  Obviously, the photo refers to the film, not the novel, and I believe the sources make this clear.  It should read: "Johnny wanted the artwork to conceptually refer to A Clockwork Orange, a 1971 film adapted from the 1962 dystopian novella by  Anthony Burgess."  If I'm not mistaken, this scene is from the film, not the book. Viriditas (talk) 02:45, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
With that said, there's probably no reason to mention the novel at all here.  The scene is clearly a famous shot from the film, and that's what the sources are referring to in each instance. In other words, Johnny wanted to recreate a scene from the film. Viriditas (talk) 04:03, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
The cover photo for the album was taken by George DuBose in a subway in Central Park, New York City
In American English, the phrase "Central Park, New York City", or "Place, City" usually has a comma after the city. I realize this might look strange if you aren't used to it.  It should read: "The cover photo for the album was taken by George DuBose in a subway in Central Park, New York City, near the Central Park Zoo." Viriditas (talk) 04:15, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
Showing the dark silhouettes of each band member with blue lighting in the background and dry ice fog, the band members are standing side-by-side underneath the arch of the underpass standing.
Creative sentence structure, but very confusing for the average reader.  Why are the band members standing twice, and why do you describe the band members after you describe the scene of the band members?  Why not simplify the life of the reader? :) "In the photo, the band members are standing side-by-side underneath an underpass arch, with their dark silhouettes illuminated in the background with blue lighting and dry ice fog."  Or something like that. Viriditas (talk) 04:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
DuBose also stated that the band did not need their faces on the cover because they had grown significantly in popularity; their faces being in the cover was originally intended, however.
Copyedit: "DuBose also stated that the band did not need their faces on the cover because they had grown significantly in popularity; however, he originally intended to include their faces." Viriditas (talk) 04:09, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
The photograph on the album cover was a "lucky" mistake after photographer George DuBose's camera malfunctioned and unintentionally shot the band members in silhouette.
Remove "photographer" here and place it up above in the first instance when you mention DuBose the first time.  Also, no need to keep using his first name after the first instance, and add a "he' before unintentionally. When you're done, it should read: "The photograph on the album cover was a "lucky" mistake after DuBose's camera malfunctioned and he unintentionally shot the band members in silhouette."  Now, my only problem with this is that the sources show that DuBose didn't refer to this as a lucky mistake, but as a lucky accident.  I think you should replace the use of this term in both the lead and the body with the full quote, "lucky accident", since that has an altogether different (but similar) connotation.  An accident can be a mistake, and a mistake can be an accident, but in this incident, and specifically in artistic terms, a "lucky accident" evokes a positive aspect of creating art by chance, such as the kind we see in Dadaism.  What's interesting about this is that there are some parallels between the punk music movement and dadaism, so it's quite possible that DuBose was referring to the "lucky accident" in these terms, whereas the editorial paraphrase tends to miss this point.  In this kind of situation, always use the direct quote. Viriditas (talk) 04:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC)


### Music and compositions
Just as the recording methods resembled that of the earlier era of the band, the musical style which they produced also favored the band's earlier approach on punk rock.
Approach on or approach to punk rock? Viriditas (talk) 21:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed
Which source are you referring to here? Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Good.  Keep in mind, you've repeated the word "earlier" twice in the same sentence.  If you can fix the word repetition by using a synonym to describe the initial era of the band (maybe by decade?) that would help. Viriditas (talk) 02:34, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Even though "Howling at the Moon (Sha-La-La)" featured a synthpop feel, the overall genre leaned more so toward heavy metal music rather than pop music, which had been a major focus of the band's writing process throughout the 1980s.
Aside from the infobox, this is the first time you introduce "Howling at the Moon (Sha-La-La)" in the article.  It's not until the last section that the reader finds out this is "the only single released from the album".  Is there a way for you to preface this introduction, maybe with something like "Even though their single..." Further, make the source here explicit.  Which one are you referring to here? Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
. Authors Scott Schinder and Andy Schwartz explained that the album was "the Ramones' response to America's burgeoning hard-core punk scene, and did much to restore the band's musical credibilty."
I think you need a colon here, not a period, after the quotes. And while your quote leading into the blockquote is probably OK, ideally in a situation like this, you want to paraphrase the quote leading into the blockquote, not provide two quotes in a row.  Not a big deal, but stylistically, it looks lazy since it would be easy for you to paraphrase. Maybe something to think about in the future.  Viriditas (talk) 04:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
—Scott Schinder and Andy Schwartz, Icons of Rock.
There's no need for this pull quote style citation.  You already introduced the quote by these authors and there's no reason to highlight the publication.  I would just delete the entire line. Viriditas (talk) 04:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I think I fixed everything here by combining the quotes into the template and removing the pull quote style citation.
Initially, "Wart Hog"'s appearance on the album was declined by Joey, but Johnny lobbied this, later stating: "if I hadn't lobbied for them, they wouldn't be on the [album]."
The "lobbied this" bit doesn't really work.  First of all, your quote already says that, so just lead into it with something like, "but Johnny argued for including the song, later stating..." Viriditas (talk) 04:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
I fixed this myself. Viriditas (talk) 02:27, 5 June 2014 (UTC)


### Reception
Kurt Loder of the Rolling Stone concluded his interview by saying that "Too Tough to Die is a return to fighting trim by the kings of stripped-down rock & roll."
What "interview"?  Did you mean to write "review" instead? Viriditas (talk) 21:39, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed


### Track listing
The following track listing can be verified through the Subterranean Jungle expanded edition liner notes.
Did you copy that from the Subterranean Jungle article and forget to replace the name of that album with Too Tough to Die? Viriditas (talk) 02:24, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Haha nice catch.  Fixed
Please be mindful of WP:OVERLINK.  You've got several links repeated here. Viriditas (talk) 02:29, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I removed the overlink of Richie Ramone but I think MOS says that the Track listing section should re-introduce links as for easy navigation. Not sure though.


### Personnel
The following personnel can be verified through the Subterranean Jungle expanded edition liner notes.
Same as above.  It looks like you copied this over without changing the album name. Viriditas (talk) 23:55, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
 Fixed


### See also
List of cultural references to A Clockwork Orange
This link seems ripe for inclusion in either the cover art or music and compositions section.  As you know, the link text says, "Seminal punk rock band Ramones named a song after the car given a joyride by Alex and his droogs ("Durango 95") and also dressed up as characters from A Clockwork Orange on the front of the popular album Too Tough to Die."  Any chance this can be sourced in the article and the link merged? Viriditas (talk) 21:22, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Did the best I could, but the linking is a little bit odd.
Since it's been merged, I'll cover this in the section about "Cover art". Viriditas (talk) 01:03, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


### References
OK. Viriditas (talk) 00:57, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


### Criteria
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors: 
A few issues with the lead section fixed (see above)
"Restrained" in the "Recording and production" section needs to be replaced (see above)
Done.
"period of seven days" in the "Recording and production" section refers to a previous recording, but sounds strange here without a comparison to the length of time of this recording.
Done.
B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists: 
WP:WEASEL words removed from lead (see above)
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. Has an appropriate reference section: 

B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary: 
"Music and compositions" section missing explicit sources in the first paragraph.
Source clarification needed in  "Recording and production" section (see above, now fixed)
C. No original research: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects: 
Article doesn't mention that the album was released during the tenth anniversary of the band's founding.
Article doesn't mention why the album is called "Too Tough to Die".  An unsourced explanation is found in the article on Johnny Ramone.
B. Focused: 

Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias: 

Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc: 

Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content: 

B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: 
Minor changes required.  Close to passing. Viriditas (talk) 04:05, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Changes fixed.  Article now passes.  Suggestions for improving the article include noting the release coincided with the 10th anniversary of the founding of the band (needs verification) and discussing the origin of the album title (an unsourced explanation is found in the article on Johnny Ramone).  I also think that more can be said about the songs and any touring that occurred to promote the album.  Thanks for your hard work. I saw the Ramones several times in the 1980s, and my ears are still ringing from their incredible show at the Fillmore in 1988.  Viriditas (talk) 02:32, 5 June 2014 (UTC)