# Talk:The Holocaust

In the start "murdered some six million Jews" can sound unclear to some, I'd say It needs some rewording to avoid confusion with newer English readers/speakers.  BelowFlames (talk) 05:18, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

So "murdered around six million Jews"? ByeAbhay65 (talk) 20:22, 6 November 2025 (UTC)
yes BelowFlames (talk) 04:19, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
This has been discussed a few times. I would recommend searching the Talk page archives for these discussions and engaging with the arguments made in favour of the current wording. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:08, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
I saw that this was suggested as one of the possible topics for the FAQ when it was first proposed, maybe it should be added to the FAQ. This line of questioning can get touchy, but it is true that our mention in the body of this (first word of The Holocaust#Death toll) uses the term "around". It's very possible we should not use "around" in the body. We have 3 sources for that sentence, Landau uses "approximately", one is in German, and Herf uses "some". If "around" is the language we want to be using in the body, we should change it to "around" in the lead. If "some" is what we want to use in the lead, then we should change it to "some" in the body.
TLDR: we currently use 2 different wordings, one of which is around Mikewem (talk) 13:58, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

“Around 1.47 million Jews were murdered in just 100 days from late July to early November 1942, a rate approximately 83% higher than the commonly suggested figure for the Rwandan genocide. Between July and October 1942, two million Jews were murdered, including Operation Reinhard and other killings, with over three million Jews killed in 1942 alone, as stated by historian Christian Gerlach.” 118.69.34.125 (talk) 07:10, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

Gerlach's estimate includes "Operation Reinhard and other killings", while the Stone paper focuses specifically on Operation Reinhard. There were a number of killings outside of the "General Government" district of German-occupied Poland that went on during the same period - e.g. killings at Auschwitz. Katzrockso (talk) 00:33, 1 November 2025 (UTC)

The Holocaust and The Shoah are two distinct words, describing seperate things.
"4.
1955–
historical. Usually with capital initial and with the. The systematic mass killing of Jews under the German Nazi regime in Nazi-controlled areas of Europe between 1941 and 1945. Later also in extended use with reference to other victims of Nazi genocide, such as Romani people, gay people, or people with disabilities." - Oxford Dictionairy, holocaust, meaning & use
The Shoa on the otherhand is a term coined in the 1960's, during Israels remembrance day of the Holocaust. According to the Oxford dictionairy, Shoah, fact sheet.
Concentration camp memorials specifically refer to the 6 million killed jews, when speaking of the Shoah.
(https://www.politische-bildung-brandenburg.de/lexikon/holocaust-shoah)
The page of the Holocaust should be more comprehensive and include the other 10 Million people directly killed by Nazi Germany, while The Shoah should get its dedicated page for the Jews. 84.61.171.225 (talk) 16:20, 2 November 2025 (UTC)

See question 2 of the FAQ. You may be right, but it would be necessary to to establish a consensus that the Holocaust should refer to these broader killings in the Wikipedia article. Katzrockso (talk) 16:25, 2 November 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply Katzrockso, but the Wikipedia article literally opens with "The Holocaust[...], was the genocide of European Jews during World War II. From 1941 to 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews across German-occupied Europe, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population" therefor directly contradicting FAQ#2, by making it exclusively about the Jews in its Wikipedia-Definition.
If the Article was simply renamed to "Shoah" the page wouldnt need anymore editing, as most of its information is already Judeo-Centric, with the "Death Toll"-section not even mentioning any non-Jews and all.
Consensus should be there by default according to the FAQ#2. ~2025-34634-12 (talk) 12:21, 19 November 2025 (UTC)
 Already done As the FAQ says, the extended definition is already included in the lead and body, and a count of non-Jewish victims is already included in the lead and Death toll. Mikewem (talk) 17:38, 19 November 2025 (UTC)