# Talk:Saint Young Men

ANN Right Turn Only vol. 1 import review --KrebMarkt 16:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
ja01 ja05

The beginning of the title is 聖, but romanized as "seinto" - the character literally means saint, and is pronounced "kiyoshi", whereas "seinto" would be in katakana. Is there a source that confirms this as an unorthodox pronunciation?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.240.249.45 (talk) 06:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 

Covers and other publicity material show セイント as rubi. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:42, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Grammar issues
OVA, not OAD. Try to use the same term throughout wiki.
Consider splitting the OAD section into an anime section. If the Film has close ties to the "Anime" (Same voice cast and studio), consider subheading it under the anime heading. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 05:33, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Interview with Nakamura. Shueisha Ryoga (talk) 17:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Natalie interview Ryoga (talk) 17:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Another one
Also, there's an anime guide available (in Japanese). If anyone can get that, it'd be great (I think). Ryoga (talk) 17:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I was going to review this for GA but there was too much prose issues for me.

"While taking a vacation on Earth, they attempt to hide their identities and understand modern Japanese society." Clarity
First three sentences for production needs improvement in prose, either due to awkward phrasing or clarity.
Second paragraph, second sentence of production has an incomplete idea. I know the third sentence explains the reasoning afterwards, and those two should be merged or rewritten somehow.
"influenced by Nakamura's sister," Inspired? I thought the sentence seems awkward.
"she wrote without preparation" Clarity
"published in the Kodansha's " Extra the
Manga, second third sentence. Better to word as something like "hiatus between x and x for pregnancy" or something. Time map is very jarring.
localized. Not sure about this and I could be wrong but localized is for location, you probably want translated instead.
English license attempt sentences are confusing
Cite first sentence, last sentence for second paragraph of anime for better stylization.
Syntehsis the reception. Having arbitrary numbers for each year isn't very helpful.
Same with film.
DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 04:43, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Hm, strange, I haven't seen it before... But thanks for the tips, DragonZero! My replies:
Clarity on what exactly? They are taking a vacation on Earth, they don't want to be recognized, and they want to understand society
I'm not sure what the problem is but I've tried
Ditto
Well, in the previous sentences it's described how she prepared to write most of the chapters. Then, it's explained that she doesn't have a specific plan for some chapters. I've tried to rewrite...
Yeah, far better
Done
I hope it helps
Done
Done
Done Gabriel Yuji (talk) 19:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Saint Young Men/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Rapunzel-bellflower (talk · contribs) 17:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi! I should have the review done withinin a week. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 17:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


### Prose comments
Lead
" Individual volumes of the series has been placed in lists of the best-selling manga in Japan,"--->" Individual volumes of the series have placed in lists of the best-selling manga in Japan,"
Wow, what an elementary mistake... Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I used to mess this one up all the time. An easy trick to remember the subject-verb agreement is to put the prepositional phrases into parentheses. Here, "Individual volumes of the series have placed in lists of the best-selling manga in Japan" would look like this: "Individual volumes (of the series) have placed in lists of the best-selling manga in Japan". So, "volumes have placed" checks out. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"Individual volumes of the series has been placed in lists of the best-selling manga in Japan, and have frequently appeared on the annual best-sellers lists." General question: Are the annual bestseller lists for Japan?
Yeah. And felt it was repetitive so I've merged these two sentences. Can you take a look? Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
" Its film adaptation has been well received by the public." Which public? Japanese?
Yeah. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Overview
"Jesus Christ (イエス・キリスト Iesu Kirisuto?, voiced by Mirai Moriyama in the anime[1]) and Gautama Buddha (ゴータマ・ブッダ Gōtama Budda?, voiced by Gen Hoshino in the anime[1]), the founders of Christianity and Buddhism respectively, are living together as roommates in an apartment in Tachikawa, in the suburbs of Tokyo." Is Tachikawa the suburbs of Tokyo? If so, you may want to write "[...] in an apartment in Tachikawa, the suburbs of Tokyo."
It is located at the suburbs of Tokyo. So, it's part of the suburbs but not the suburbs as a whole. That's make some difference in English? Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
If I understand this, Tachikawa is one of the surbubs, right? So maybe "[...] Tachikawa, part of the suburbs of Tokyo." Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Yeah. Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 04:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
"for example, Jesus turns the water of a public bath into wine and Buddha shines when he is excited.[2]" You could shorten it to "for example, Jesus turns the water of a public bath into wine and Buddha shines when excited.[2]" Not mandatory, just a suggestion.
I think short is better. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Also, am a bit worried about how close "Jesus turns the water of a public bath into wine" is to "Jesus, for example, mistakenly turns the water of the local public bath into wine,".
Yeah, I remember this sentence was a difficult to paraphrase. Do you have any suggestion? Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I've been thinking about it. It is really tricky to paraphrase. I'll see if I can think of any suggestions. And again, if you come up with something, go for it! Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"Maybe something like "Jesus creates wine from water in a public bath"? Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 16:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Production
"Before writing Saint Young Men, Hikaru Nakamura was working on Arakawa Under the Bridge, which started to be serialized on December 3, 2004, in the first issue of Square Enix's comic book Young Gangan." The link suggests that Young Gangan is a manga magazine. If this is accurate, you could reword it to "Before writing Saint Young Men, Hikaru Nakamura was working on Arakawa Under the Bridge, which began serialization on December 3, 2004, in the first issue of Square Enix's manga magazine Young Gangan."
Hm, I guess I should pay more attention when someone not familiarized with the topic copyedits it... Fixed. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"It attracted the attention of an editor of the magazine Weekly Morning who wanted Nakamura to publish a series on it." For the magazine, right? "On it" suggests that it's a topic.
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"Their opposing personalities was inspired by Nakamura's sister and her sister's husband as by observing their relationship she saw some amusing situations." Maybe "Their opposing personalities was inspired by Nakamura's sister and her sister's husband; by observing their relationship she saw some amusing situations."
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
" However, if Nakamura had a specific theme she created several jokes then connected them to form a story."--->" However, if Nakamura had a specific theme[,] she created several jokes [and] then connected them to form a story."
Fixed. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"When creating "a more relaxed chapter", in which not much happens except Jesus and Buddha's banal daily lives or talks, she wrote without such concern." I'm a bit confused.
"a more relaxed chapter" would be a simpler chapter in opposition to the more elaborated thematic ones. When preparing this, she would not worry to create jokes and situations in advance. How could a rewrite it? Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Ok. That sounds nice already. Maybe "When creating a simpler chapter as compared to the more elaborated thematic ones, she wrote without worrying about creating jokes and situations in advance." Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 04:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Looking at it again, I've realized that I misread "elaborated" as "elaborate". "Elaborate" makes more sense here... Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 16:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Fixed. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 05:11, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
" With the help of her four assistants, on average she took between ten days and two weeks to make a chapter." A complete chapter, right?
Yeah. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Manga
"Saint Young Men, written and illustrated by Hikaru Nakamura, had it first chapter published in Kodansha's seinen manga magazine Morning 2 on September 26, 2006"--->"Saint Young Men, written and illustrated by Hikaru Nakamura, had [its] first chapter published in Kodansha's seinen manga magazine Morning 2 on September 26, 2006"
What a silly mistake (shame). Good catch! Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Looking at it again, the sentence suggests that just the first chapter was serialized in Morning 2. Maybe "Saint Young Men, written and illustrated by Hikaru Nakamura, had began its serialization  in Kodansha's seinen manga magazine Morning 2 on September 26, 2006". Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Hm, it's a tricky language... Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 04:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)fr
"The series was once put on hiatus between September 22, 2011 and March 22, 2012 because of Nakamura's pregnancy" I don't think you need "once" there.
Probably no. Removed. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"A guidebook to the series was released on April 23, 2013.[15]" You could omit "to the series". I think it's implied.
Yeah. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"The series has been translated in other languages including Chinese by Tong Li Publishing,[16] French by Kurokawa,[17] Italian by J-Pop,[18] and Spanish by Norma Editorial.[19]"--->"The series has been translated in other languages[,] including Chinese by Tong Li Publishing,[16] French by Kurokawa,[17] Italian by J-Pop,[18] and Spanish by Norma Editorial.[19]"
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Will continue the review. :) Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 18:58, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Continued, as promised. :)
"Ed Chavez, editor of the American publisher Vertical, contacted the Japanese licensor of the series to request its publishing in North America. However, the licensor refused, saying he does not want it to be released in America because he thought Americans would be offended by it." I'm worried about how close in wording this is to the source: "but according to Vertical editor Ed Chavez on twitter, the Japanese licensor doesn't want it to be released in America "until the readership changes here," which seems like shorthand for "until they're sure Americans won't be offended by it." I suggest rewording it to something like this: "The Japanese licensor of the series refused to allow it to be published in North America, because Americans might take offense to it." From the article, I can't tell the gender of the licensor. Again, please don't feel constrained by my wording. If you can find something better, go for it!
Good one. I was aware the gender was not mentioned but I wasn't able to write without mentioning a pronoun. (Someone may ask why I didn't write "she" and wrote "he"... And I sadly admit I should pay more attention on my sexist/phallogocentric writing :/). I guess your reworded version is good but what I wanted was to include that it was his/her opinion that American may consider it offensible. Any suggestion? Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't worry about it. :) Oh gosh, a gender neutral version. Okay, maybe "The Japanese licensor of the series refused to allow it to be published in North America, because it was thought that Americans might take offense to it." Kinda awkward though. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Anime
" Before its release on April 30, 2013, a guidebook was published" For the film, right?
Right. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm getting a bit confused here. So we had the first guide book for the manga. There's a second one for the film, but the sentence suggests that the film was published on April 30, 2013, but a few sentences later, there is "It [the film I'm assuming] premiered in Japan on May 10, 2013." Help?
Well, there's a guidebook for the manga and a film guidebook. The film guidebook (for a reason that I don't know) was published before the film. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Ok. What about the premiere of the film? In "Before its release on April 30, 2013, a guidebook to the film was published." suggests that the film was released on April 30, 2013, but a subsequent sentence ("It premiered in Japan on May 10, 2013.") says that the film was released on May 10. If it's the film guidebook was published on April 30, and not the film, maybe move the date further on into the sentence to something like "Before its release, a guidebook to the film was published on April 30, 2013." Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Hm, now I see the problem. Fixed. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 04:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Reception
"It was nominated for the Angoulême International Comics Festival in the category "Best Comic"."-->"It was nominated for the category "Best Comic" at the Angoulême International Comics Festival."
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"because of this in May 2009 Kodansha began making the magazine available online the day it is published."-->"because of this[,]  Kodansha began in May 2009 to make the magazine available online the day it is published.
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"All individual volumes appeared on lists of 50 best-selling manga of the year"-->"All individual volumes appeared on lists of the 50 best-selling manga of the year in Japan." Maybe.
Reworded. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"In 2014, The Daily Dot reported a growing fandom of the series that widespread various Tumblr GIFs." Not entirely sure what's going on here. An English-language fandom who uses Tumblr Gifs?
The source mentions a "Western fandom". I've added it. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Ok. We've still got an incomplete sentence, though. "The movie came out in Japan early last year, but its Western fandom only began to blossom over the holiday season when suddenly, the only non-obnoxious Christmas GIFs on Tumblr seemed to be these strange images of Anime Jesus looking super excited to put a star on top of the Christmas tree." seems to be the part of the ref that's relevant to this. Maybe "In 2014, The Daily Dot reported on a growing Western fandom that spread various Tumblr GIFs of the series." Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Wow, English is really tricky. What I think to be implict (like this sentence) is not, and needs to be explict. And what I think needs to be explict, doesn't really need. (like "A guidebook to the series" or "when he is excited"). Thanks, fixed. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 04:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
You don't need to repeat "of the series" for this: "In 2014, The Daily Dot reported a growing Western fandom of the series that widespread various Tumblr GIFs of the series." I hope I haven't misled you. You could take out the first "of the series." Also, I don't think "widespread" can be used as a verb. (Maybe substitute it with "spread"?) Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 01:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Hm, my mistake. Fixed. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
"Comics writer Paul Gravett elected it as one of the best comics of Japan in 2008,[48] while writers Shaenon Garrity and Jason Thompson elected it as one of the most wanted titles for licensing in 2010." Elected it used twice. I suggest changing the second use to "listed".
I've tried "chose". Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"Japanese manga critic Kaoru Nagayama has noted that the manga is "fun to read" and commended the main characters, for staying true to their real character and staying that way even when confronted by evil" In what sense do you mean "real"?
Hm, I guess it's saying that are faithfully depicted. However, it was added by Ryoga Godai (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saint_Young_Men&type=revision&diff=638233762&oldid=638139258) so I'd like his imput. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi there. I added that part in. Jesus and Buddha are known for their kind, gentle character which is what the critic meant by "real". "Evil" refers to the obstacles and people they meet in the modern world (if I'm correct, there's a particular chapter where they are almost attacked by a group of thugs, but their nice words and actions change them). I couldn't find a better word to represent that :D Ryoga (talk) 04:58, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for replying so quickly. :) Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Maybe replace "real" with "gentle and kind" to clarify the sentence? Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 01:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I've reworded it. Give it a look, Rapunzel and Ryoga Godai Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
" Santos praised the fact that unlike other manga the series does not lose its steam as it progress. " Oh gosh, this is where I get picky. It's not quite a fact, more of his opinion, right? So maybe, "According to him, the series does not lose its steam as it progress, unlike other manga."
Touché. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
From reading Santos' review, I get the sense that while he notes that it does have its flaws, it is not a bad manga. I feel like the reception is focusing more on Santos' negative points. If that makes any sense.
Not sure. I thought I've balanced it well with two favorable sentences and two negative ones. I'll look more closely. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I'll take a second look. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
" Jolyon Baraka Thomas of The Guardian praised the constancy of "visual gags and puns", also saying "Her story is not an introduction to abstruse religious doctrines, nor does it feature much overt commentary on the role of religions in contemporary society."-->" Jolyon Baraka Thomas of The Guardian praised the constancy of the "visual gags and puns", and wrote: "Her story is not an introduction to abstruse religious doctrines, nor does it feature much overt commentary on the role of religions in contemporary society."
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
The anime earnings are listed first in yen, but then the total earnings are in US dollars. Not sure if this is something that can be fixed. Just a bit jarring. As a side note, totally appreciate the conversion from yen into dollars. Very nice and helps to provide a reference point for those not familiar with the yen.
The problem is that the current source doesn't give it on both currencies. I'll look for a source with its earning in yens. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Infobox caption
"Cover of Saint Young Men first volume as published by Kodansha" could be reduced to "Cover of the first volume as published by Kodansha (2008)" We know it's the cover of the series, so I think we don;t have to repeat it. Personally, I like putting the date for context, but it is entirely up to you.
Removed the series name but I've not added the year. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 23:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks both for the greatly in-depth review and for your kindness and patience with the prose issues, Rapunzel-bellflower. :) Gabriel Yuji (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind words. :) Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I've forgotten in my last reply about the ref issues... #7 is an interview with the band Dengeki Groove within the magazine Rockin'on (ja; Amazon). When I've added Otaku Champloo I thought it would be probably not reliable but I felt it was not a problem if they are only translating an interview with the author. I guess it's more accessbile to the English Wikipedia general reader. I'd not be surprised if you request me to use the original source, though. However, looking at the author profile I guess she have some good credentials. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 04:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Wonderful. Could you add more details to ref 7 (article title, editors, author of article, location, etc; look at this template if you need help), please? About Otaku Champloo, I'm very hesitant to use it; I would greatly prefer if you used the original source if you are able to. Great work so far! Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 16:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
(Sorry for the late, Rapunzel-bellflower) I'm fact I can't. I've copied it from the Japanese Wikipedia and it provide no more details. I've searched and found out the edition on Amazon but that's all I could do. That's a not a vital information, though, so I can remove if you consider so. As for Otaku Champloo, I've replaced it because it's not the better place to discuss it. But just for the record she wrote for Manga Bookshelf, which is WP:A&M/ORS, and Manila Bulletin. She is also cited by Erica Friedman ([1]), Brigid Alverson ([2]), and The Comics Journal [3]). Gabriel Yuji (talk) 05:11, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't worry about it. :) About the Rock'on ref, that's unfortunate. Can you contact the editor who added it for more details? About Otaku Champloo, you could always ask the wikiproject or the RS noticeboard. I didn't know she had been cited by other RSs. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 01:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Morningmanga.com redirects. Upload smaller image so it doesn't need a size restriction on the infobox. Unless you scanned the image yourself, you should source the image file correctly. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 01:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, DragonZero! Fixed the link. Added the source to the image. Not sure about what's the problem with the image size. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 05:11, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


### More prose comments
" It received a Tezuka Osamu Cultural Prize and was nominated in the Angoulême International Comics Festival."-->"It received a Tezuka Osamu Cultural Prize and was nominated at the Angoulême International Comics Festival."
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
"It attracted the attention of an editor of the magazine Weekly Morning[,] who wanted Nakamura to publish a series for the magazine"
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
"She accepted the offer because of her admiration for Kaiji Kawaguchi's works[,] such as Zipang and The Silent Service[,] that were serialized in Weekly Morning."
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
" Their opposing personalities was inspired by Nakamura's sister and her sister's husband; by observing their relationship[,] she saw some amusing situations"
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
"When creating a simpler chapter as compared to the more elaborate[,] thematic ones, she wrote without worrying about creating jokes and situations in advance."
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
"The series was put on hiatus between September 22, 2011[,] and March 22, 2012[,] because of Nakamura's pregnancy."
Done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 01:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Excellent work! After another read-through, I'm really happy with the state of the article, and I feel that it meets the GA criteria now. So, I'm passing it. Great job, Gabriel, and keep up the good work! Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 20:26, 21 June 2015 (UTC)