# Talk:Rabia Balkhi

Hello, I'm working on a project regarding 'Attar's Ilahi-nama and was looking for more information on Zayn al-'Arab / Rabi'a Balkhi. I tried tracking down the third source listed here, the Indo-Iranica journal. I'm afraid I can't find the page referred to here. Also, Volume 2 has four issues, so we should probably specify which it is. There is an article on Rudaki in Vol. 2 No. 1 but she is not mentioned there, as far as I can tell. Any help with tracking down these sources would be greatly appreciated, and we should especially try to clarify them in the article for others who wish to read further. Thanks 128.135.121.33 (talk) 20:03, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It seems like someone removed references that were previously in the article when they attempted a rewrite. Here is the last version before the references were removed, if anyone is willing to restore some of the refs/info (I'm unfamiliar with this subject myself). - Whisperjanes (talk) 17:09, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I went ahead and restored what I could. I left out her love-tragedy because it didn't have an inline citation and I wasn't sure which information was correct and which was not. Something about it should be added in, but I'm not sure about the details other than that she had a "tragic love affair with Baktāsh, a Turkish servant" per this source. - Whisperjanes (talk) 17:42, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

If she was born in balkh she’s tajik not persian why do people outside iran who speak farsi ( Tajiks) get referred to as persian!? Rudaki wasn’t persian not was Rumi or Rabia balkhi.. bruh 77.102.46.239 (talk) 23:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
I noticed that there are a lot of people whose ethnicity is put as Persians and they are not!  Reem898 (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

@Reem898: Kindly refrain from edit warring and please add a source to your addition. If you have any concerns, feel free to write them here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:35, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

In the book, which Historyiran put as a source, it says that Rabia is of Arab origin and that she is a Persianized Arab. I don't know why her ethnicity was Persian. Please do not spread false information. Reem898 (talk) 19:45, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Your title contradicts your own comment. Was she a Persianized Arab or an Arab? Which one is it? Let's see what the source you're talking about says:
"Rabe'eh Qozdari (also known as Rabe'eh Balkhi) was a mystic poet who composed her poetry in both Persian and Arabic and had a reputation for being promiscuous. She was a temporary of Rudaki, and she is also later rembered as a mystic by such luminary masters of Persian mysticism as Abu Sa'id, Attar, and Abd al-Rahman Jami. She is the first recorded Persian poet woman. She is reported to have descended from an Arab family that immigrated to Khurasan after the Muslim conquest." Now where does it call her "Arab"? True, she descends from an Arab family, but she isn't considered an "Arab" by the source. Moreover, the Muslim conquest of Khurasan took place 3 centuries before her time. This is the equivalent to calling Trump a German. Don't accuse me of spreading false information again. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
The source here means Persian as a language, in context of her being a poet. Ethnicity wise it clearly states her Arab origin. Language is not ethnicity as per Wikipedia guidelines. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 05:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
She is part of the millions of Arabs who were relocated to that region as sources such as EncyclopediaIranica attest. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 05:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
Your source literally says "Persian poet", LANGUAGE. Then it explicitly explains her origin. It couldn't be more clearer so please try to look at it objectively.
Pretty ironic that you request of me to be objective when you to try to reinterpret such a simple phrase in a different way. It calls her a "Persian poet", WP:DROPTHESTICK. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:02, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
"Persian" here is describing the language. It's clear since the ethnicity is then explained within the same source. Wikipedia requires proper exegesis of sources, not copypasting words taken at face value and misrepresenting their meaning (confusing language with ethnicity). Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 03:50, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Both cited sources call her a Persian poet, even though she also write in Arabic, so that doesn't make any sense. The source says that she was descended from an Arab family that immigrated to Khurasan after its Muslim conquest (i.e. centuries ago), there is quite a big difference. I have no issue in adding that she was descended from an Arab family. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:50, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Also, some interesting information I found; "The last part of her name, Quzdari, has caused some speculation regarding the historicity of Quzdar. Minorsky identifies Quzdar with the city of Khuzdar in Balochistan. Ritter's rejection that her father was an Arab who ruled over Balkh indirectly supports Rabia's assocation with Khuzdar." pp. 206-207, Sufi Women of South Asia: Veiled Friends of God, Brill --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:16, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Umayyads relocated hundreds of thousands of Arab families to khurasan, who numbered up to 2 million and a at the most conservative estimate 250k in number, in the 8th century (see: https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/arab-iii). Not that far long ago. Anyway I see you're editing the article. If you click the Arabic version there are many (English) sources on her. Also I have a request: Can you mention her nickname "Zayn Al-Arab"? Not because it has arab in it but in the Arab world that's why she goes by (and sometimes bint kaab). Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 14:59, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
And what about the Umayyads? I have already mentioned the Zayn Al-Arab bit, though it's not a nickname (at least in English academia, which is what is relevant here), but what Attar calls her in his work. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:17, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
You are right that she was an Arab:
"She is known by various names, Rabia Balkhi, Rabia al-Quzdar (or Khuzdari), and anonymously as a "daughter of Ka'b
Ka'b is an Arab name obviously. Ibnismail2222 (talk) 17:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
The American is not a race at all. She is of Arab descent, and this does not make her Persian at all. Her origin is Arab, Wikipedia should put the correct information. Reem898 (talk) 12:52, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

That's not what race means. I'm not sure what you meant by that. The source calls her Persian, thus that is the correct information, and thus that is what write. You not liking it (WP:JDLI) is not gonna change that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:03, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
The source says that it is of Arabic origin and got Persianized. Her ethnicity is Arab, not Persian. Ignoring this information will not change that she is an Arab.  Reem898 (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Repeating yourself is not helping. Please read WP:REHASH. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:18, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Your source proves that she is Arab, but you want to change her ethnicity.  Reem898 (talk) 21:57, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Why does this article state she is a “10th century” poet when most sources stay she lived from 717-801? That would place her live in the 8th century And very early 9th century. 200.91.189.58 (talk) 13:04, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

The article contradicts you. HistoryofIran (talk)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rabia Balkhi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Trainsandotherthings (talk · contribs) 15:00, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Picking up this review as promised, following its abandonment by the original reviewer. Hope to have this done in the next few days. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:00, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct: 
A few minor things, see prose comments. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:06, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
All concerns addressed. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:24, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: 
I do not see any issues here. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:06, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Is it verifiable with no original research?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline: 
Format looks good to me. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:34, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines: 
Sources are reliable, primarily published books and journals. I have verified that Sharma and Losensky, the only sources I can access, verify what is cited to them. Will AGF on remaining sources. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
C. It contains no original research: 
Well-cited throughout, I do not find any evidence of original research. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism: 
I have one concern. it was authors such as Attar and Jami who transformed her image into that of a mystic poet. is similar to the source wording authors such as ‘Attār in his poems and Jāmiin his biographical dictionary of Suﬁs, Nafahāt al-ons, were responsible for converting her image into that of a mystic poet. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Addressed. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:24, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic: 
As far as main aspects go for a very niche subject such as this one, and bearing in mind I am in no way a subject-matter expert here, I am pretty certain this covers all the main points. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style): 
I have no concerns on this criterion. The article gives the reader a focused, measured overview of what is known of Rabia Balkhi and her influence on other poets and authors. It avoids going off-topic or giving excessive detail. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each: 
I do not see any deviation from NPOV in the text of this article. It reads as an encyclopedia article should. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute: 
No issues with stability. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:00, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content: 
One photo, released into the public domain by its author. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:34, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: 
Image shows the mausoleum where Rabia Balkhi's shrine is located. For a subject that lived this long ago, that's about the best we can hope for. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:34, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Overall:
Pass or Fail: 
All concerns addressed, promoting now. Good work and congratulations. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:24, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


#### Prose comments
Background

The German Orientalist Hellmut Ritter is a WP:SEAOFBLUE. Consider rearranging the words or delinking 1 or more. I suggest delinking German.
Iranologist is linked twice here.
Do we have any information about different sources for her name and life? Are there conflicting accounts by different people? I'm not familiar with this topic area really at all, so if there's little known then just say so and we won't worry about it. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:34, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Not as far as I know, she's a very obscure figure, being one of the very few notable women in the medieval Islamic period. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:09, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Biography

Women considers her to serve as a replacement for their lost voice. should be "Women consider her".
She had strong feelings to Sufism, and composed poetry in Persian and Arabic. Consider "She felt strongly about Sufism" or "She practiced Sufism".
The article for Awfi spells his name Aufi, is that just a different transliteration of his name?
Yep. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
She was proficient in both Arabic and Persian poetry. duplicates and composed poetry in Persian and Arabic in the previous paragraph, I recommend removing one of these.
The modern historian Sunil Sharma notes that Rabia initially starts out as non-mystic figure, Should this be "Rabia initially started out..."?
The shrine was recently renovated. Be more specific if possible. In ten or twenty years, someone won't know how long ago this happened if you do not give a date.
Sophocles and Antigone can both be wikilinked.
That's all I have. Placing this on hold pending responses from the nominator. It's optional, but I do have several GANs and an FAC at the moment if you feel like returning the favor. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:06, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Thanks again for picking this up, Trainsandotherthings. If you don't mind, I will be striking the issues that I have fixed for practicality. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:09, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
@Trainsandotherthings: I think that's all. I'm sorry, Trainsandotherthings, but I don't feel qualified (or perhaps not confident enough) to review GANs and especially FACs. Maybe one day. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:44, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Can you look at the instance of potential close paraphrasing I identified above? Trainsandotherthings (talk) 12:32, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Ops, I missed that bit, my bad. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
@Trainsandotherthings: Did a lil rewrite [1], thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
That looks acceptable to me. That was my only remaining concern so I will promote this now. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Noice, thanks again for the review! --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:43, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Looking into the origin of the source by Hamid Dabashi he is an Iranian citizen from Ahwaz which is a region home to many Arabs. Dabashi is an Iranian national of Arab ancestry himself. Dabashi's bias towards Arab centricism is evident through his repeated use of derogatory terms and sweeping characterizations when discussing Israel and its policies, reflecting a tendency to emphasize one perspective over others. His consistent criticism ofconsistent use of derogatory language, sweeping generalizations, and inflammatory rhetoric in his criticism of Israel and related issues suggests a clear bias that undermines his credibility as an impartial and reliable source of information. “ Dabashi has described the state of Israel as "a dyslexic Biblical exegesis," "occupied Palestine," "a vicarious avocation," "a dangerous delusion," "a colonial settlement," "a Jewish apartheid state," and "a racist apartheid state". In an interview with AsiaSource in June 2003, Dabashi stated that supporters of Israel "cannot see that Israel over the past 50 years as a colonial state - first with white European colonial settlers, then white American colonial settlers, now white Russian colonial settlers—amounts to nothing more than a military base for the rising predatory empire of the United States. Israel has no privilege greater or less than Pakistan or Kuwait or Saudi Arabia. These are all military bases but some of them, like Israel, are like the hardware of the American imperial imagination."
In an interview with the Electronic Intifada in September 2002, Dabashi referred to the pro-Israel lobby as "Gestapo apparatchiks" and that "The so-called "pro-Israeli lobby" is an integral component of the imperial designs of the Bush administration for savage and predatory globalization." He also criticized "fanatic zealots from Brooklyn" who have settled on Palestinian lands.Dabashi has also harshly criticized the New York Times for what he describes as a bias towards Israel, stating that the paper is "the single most nauseating propaganda paper on planet." 
It’s obvious Hamid Dadfar has some type of bias arabising history and makes the historically false and very political claim that Isreal is Arab land. His claims on history should not be taken as legitimate . He is obviously biased for political reasons. There are also currently calls and petitions from him to be removed from Columbia University https://www.timesofisrael.com/columbia-u-alums-call-for-professor-to-be-suspended-over-anti-zionist-posts/. 
Removing tenured professors is very hard and can take up to 10 years. Though the fact that such a process against him exists proves that his is uncredrible. 
Other historians such as Hellmut Ritter  have debunked the claim that she was descended from an Arab family. Dadfar most importantly does not cite any specific historical text or evidence of her being Arab, only states “she is said to have descend from and Arab family” obviously not reliable. 
The Sole basis of the claim of her being descended from an Arab family is that her father had an Arab name, with this logic Muhammad Ali should  also be considered an Arab. The false claims of arab nationalists should not be taken seriously.
Here are the links proving his own hateful nationalism and intolerance for non Arabs.
https://canarymission.org/professor/Hamid_Dabashi

User3456789123 (talk) 21:41, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:TLDR / WP:TEXTWALL. Take it to WP:RSN. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
Please undo the deletions.you cannot post a source from an Arab nationalist, or falsely claim a source states something it does not. User3456789123 (talk) 23:56, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
Not how Wikipedia works. You were reverted at WP:RSN for a reason, because you provided no context and ranted throughout your whole comment in a WP:TEXTWALL manner. You provided zero links either, and Hamid Dabashi is an esteemed historian, we're not just gonna dismiss him like that - see also WP:BLP, you can't just randomly refer to him as an "Arab nationalist", it's rude and bizarre. Do you have any proof that his peers consider him unreliable? --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:19, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Hamid Dabashi is an anti semetite, who revives history to suit his own Arab centric narrative,  not an esteemed historian. And Yes , they were recently calls and petitions to get him removed from Columbia University. You can find his own statements here, where his propagates Arab nationslism, its his own words. Nothing about me repeating his own claims is rude and bizarre. User3456789123 (talk) 01:32, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
You can find his own statements here.
https://canarymission.org/professor/Hamid_Dabashi User3456789123 (talk) 01:43, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
The site is controversial [2], and does not mean that his historical works have no value. Do you have proof that his peers consider him unreliable and they consider them to be made "to suit his own Arab centric narrative"? If you do, then take it to WP:RSN. If not, then this discussion is over. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Yes his claims have also been questioned in the past by academic journals undermining his credibility. https://www.telospress.com/the-vigilant-jew-as-an-annoyance-how-hamid-dabashi-misreads-adorno/ User3456789123 (talk) 01:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Dirk Braunstein is not a historian - you need compelling evidence for claims such as these. This looks like an attempt to smear Dabashis reputation by cherrypicking the most random websites and removing all mentions of Arab(ic) in the article, not just Dabashi [3] [4] [5]. I think we're done here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:05, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
So you’re just lying at this point. Dirk Braunstein is a historian you can just look up his biography https://www.ifs.uni-frankfurt.de/people-detail/dirk-braunstein.html and he had his work published in an academic journal proving that Dabashi’s claims are incredible. User3456789123 (talk) 02:12, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm not "lying", you're not even bothering to read the link you posted. "Critical Theory, Cultural Industry, Relationship between Philosophy and Sociology, Edition Philology, Archive Theory". Sounds like a historian to you? And one in the same field as Dabashi a that? And even if we pretended that he was a historian, that is not near enough evidence. My last comment regarding this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:13, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Hamid Dabashi field is not even in history himself. His own field is sociology of culture https://hamiddabashi.com/biography/ User3456789123 (talk) 02:24, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Yes it does. Go look at Dabashi own articles and publications. Braunstein is an academic who proved that Dabashi makes false in an academic journal. User3456789123 (talk) 02:16, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Here is more proof his peers find him to be uncredible..  THe president of the university of Columbia  also finds Dabashi claims to be outreagous https://nymag.com/nymetro/urban/education/features/10868/ User3456789123 (talk) 02:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
So much for my last comment, but this attempt at discrediting Dabashi is frankly irking me. (link) "Hamid Dabashi is the Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies and Comparative Literature at Columbia University." That sounds like a field in history to me. Moreover, the link you just posted is a magazine written by a random journalist named Jennifer Senior. And none of this proves that Dabashi shouldn't be used here. WP:DROPTHESTICK. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
It’s an article in the New Yorker with a direct quote from the president of the university of Columbia. It’s not a random article. And professor of Iranian studies and comparative literature does not sound like history just like Professor of English studies and comparative literature does not sound like historian. You are now evading the topic and going off on your personal views. User3456789123 (talk) 02:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
”You are now evading the topic and going off on your personal views.” This is ironic. HistoryofIran (talk) 03:13, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

You’re rejecting the views of the president of the university of Columbia and other academics and researchers. Due to your own bias. User3456789123 (talk) 03:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
No, I am simply opposing your cherrypicking of random websites and attempt at getting anything with the word “Arab” removed from the article. HistoryofIran (talk) 03:40, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Well there is no historical basis to than an absurd Arab nationalist. A statement from the president of the university of Columbia is not cherry-picking articles is a demmarit on his academic credibility. It’s your word against the word of the president of a university, academics, and journalists. Nice. User3456789123 (talk) 03:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Persian Literature, A Bio-Bibliographical Survey Volume V: Poetry of the Pre-Mongol Period (Handbook of Oriental Studies / Handbuch der Orientalistik, Section 1; The Near and Middle East, 149)
by Francois de Blois Chapter 9 debunks that claim that Rabia Balkhi is An Arab. User3456789123 (talk) 00:14, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
She appears in page 189-190 of that book, and no he doesn't, which is why you didn't post a quote of it. I should report you for misattributing a source to push your POV. Again, WP:DROPTHESTICK. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
She appears on pg. 226, and that poem written by Attar which claims her a “Zayn al arab” was misatributed to her. The Poetess Rābiʿah bint Kaʿb al-Quzdārī is included in ʿAufī’s chapter on the Ghaznavid poets where we find several of her poems, including an early example of a mulammaʿ (a poem with alternating Persian and Arabic verses). Her passion for bilingual contrivances is attested also by the poem attributed to her by Jājarmī,1 a Persian poem incorporating the Arabic words which make up the shahādah and the laḥwalah. Further specimens of her poetry are quoted by Rādūyānī (who calls her ‘Ibnat Kaʿb’) and by Shams. The romantic account of her in ʿAṭṭār’s Ilāhī-nāmah (for which see Ateş and Meier) has evidently no value as a biographical source. User3456789123 (talk) 00:44, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
That doesn't debunk her Arab origins, and I've literally already added that to the article, though without imposing a far-fetched (i.e. WP:TENDENTIOUS) interpretation like you are. This is hopeless, you keep reading what you want to hear, and not what is actually written. I'm outta here - don't disrupt the article after your block is expired. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:49, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Rābe'a (Persian) and Rābi'a (Arabic) = رابعه
Rabia = رَبعه (Arabic) and رَبیعه (Persian).
FX200 (talk) 19:33, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, but I've reverted you. Please see MOS:AR. HistoryofIran (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2025 (UTC)