# Talk:Order of the Arrow

This page needs a reference to where and when that name was changed. That is not an official change that has been communicated to active users. (talk) 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The lead paragraph currently makes no mention of the previous name of the Order of the Arrow, Wimachtendienk Wingolauchsik Witahemui (WWW). This is because the name was changed (to the Order of the Arrow) more than a hundred years ago in 1924. While there is still some use of the old name, such as on lodge flaps, it is not broadly recognized. Since an edit recently added WWW into the lead paragraph I thought I’d seek other opinions on this topic. Compass128 (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Sash and Dash is occasionally used organizational jargon. Recently, edits have been made to add this term, as well as some information on it, to the article. The sources have quite literally no info and most of the content seems to be coming from the editors themselves. I don’t think the information is relevant and have removed it pending other opinions. At the very least there needs to be stronger sources and perhaps the section could be renamed “Membership Issues” or something similar. Compass128 (talk) 22:11, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Sash and Dash should be mentioned as OA itself recognizes the issue. Jargon or not, OA mentions it on several pages including in the title of a syllabus:
https://oa-scouting.org/training/syllabi/la300-issues-sash-and-dash
https://oa-scouting.org/resources/ucl-support/lodge-ideas/best-practices
https://oa-scouting.org/resources/ucl-support/lodge-ideas/best-practices/dues-pin
https://oa-scouting.org/article/lodge-ledger-oa-and-unit-our-keys-future
https://oa-scouting.org/article/lodge-ledger-first-year-pin-program-retains-arrowmen-kansa-lodge
OA recognizes the problem, and I was explaining what Sash and Dash is for the general population.
Let's be honest here: many of the scouts and scouters who go through the ordeal will not be involved beyond that. They will not attend lodge events or volunteer within OA. However, they will gladly wear the lodge patch and sash during ceremonies. It should be mentioned to give it a balanced view. OA is great but is not all perfect and has had its share of criticism. Instead of removing the entire section, why not fix what I did wrong? It comes across as you trying to silence a legitimate issue with OA membership. Blazing Liberty (talk) 11:19, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
I agree with most of what North8000 was getting at, that there is some good information and some that is clearly subjective. I also agree with Blazing Liberty that there is a problem with membership, which is why I requested comments. My point was that the section should be neutral coverage of the organization’s struggle with member retention, and that it should be phrased as such, instead of using “Sash and Dash” in the title. I would love some external citations but that might be too much as the topic is mostly covered within the OA. Compass128 (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
IMO even the "sash and dash" term is OK, but the emphasis on the non-participants wearing the patch/sash (which implies what I described under #2) is what I'd leave out. North8000 (talk) 18:53, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
I see two very different things blended together here: 

The fact that many who get inducted never go further or participate after that. And efforts to change that. I think that this is well sourced and should be covered.
A point of view by some that there is somehow high value in wearing the patch/sash and that people who don't participate after induction are unfairly cashing in on this high value without participating. I don't think that this is well sourced or useful.  IMO this should be left out.
Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:26, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

The Sash and Dash issue clearly stems from the fact that OA membership comes with displayable prestige on the uniform. There would be no point in being in OA and not take part in activities if there was no patches and/or sash.
We may not have official sources, so we don't have to put that in the article. But deleting it all is going a little far. So let pit it back and find a way to explain it without the patch issue? Blazing Liberty (talk) 19:46, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
Based on too many decades of experience, I don't agree with your analysis, IMO the common issue (including the one in the sources and the organizational efforts) is getting inducted and then doing nothing after that. And most of those don't even wear the patch or sash. But we don't have to debate that.....just overall go by what's in the sources.     Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:21, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
I agree, regardless of any personal experiences the sources seem to describe Sash and Dash solely as a retention problem. IMO we should add the information that can be cited (i.e., the problem, its nickname, and steps taken to address it) either in the Membership section or a separate one titled “Retention issues”. Compass128 (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

NLATS doesnt exist anymore, replace NLATS with DYLC (Developing Youth Leadership Conference) D3vSilv3r (talk) 13:43, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. PianoDan (talk) 15:38, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

Change the URL within the info panel on the right side of the article from www.oa-scouting.org to oa-scouting.org, as the www subdomain simply redirects to oa-scouting.org, and national does not include www in their URL mention either. Bradykondek423 (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

 Done meamemg (talk) 15:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)