# Talk:Shōnen manga

Japan Book News #57 see page 12-13 from the Japan Foundation. --KrebMarkt 16:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Page 14 has an article about Tezuka, too. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Here is a short history report on Shonen manga by Anigamers. Apparently at Otakon 2009, there was a panel called From Kenshiro to Kenshin: the Neo-Shonen Revolution, that would have been useful for adding to a history section, though I couldn't find a report for it. AngelFire3423 (talk) 06:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Article needs a paragraph on "Shōnen ai" type manga.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnimeJanai (talk • contribs) 04:45, 22 October 2011 (UTC) 
The fact this source states Shonen for boys in both middle and high school proves it’s primarily target is teenage boys. Cuz in Japan middle schoolers range from 12 to 15 years. As it goes by the Junior High (7-9) grade system. So the targeted age of Shonen manga are boys 12 to 18 years of age. Making it for young teen boys.  SG1994! (talk) 06:53, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
This source right here I mean. 
http://www.anigamers.com/2009/08/otakon-09-shonen-manga-history-of.html SG1994! (talk) 06:54, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I saw there was a note at the top of the page about there being too much material in the introduction of the article, and that some material should be moved to the body.
I did just that, and divided the moved material into sections. I did not add or remove any of this material, only reorganized it.
(Edit: I also added a section talking about the history of manga, taken from the History of manga article.
More should be done to add to the history section, however.)
I hope my edits were beneficial. JaykeBird (talk) 10:25, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Either the article has to be bigger or the women's role part has to be shortened quite significantly. Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Djo_manga there is undue weight on this part of the article. Also it's full of opinions without source. I'm not an instance of knowledge on this subject so I'm putting up the suggestion to rework it - but if there is no disagreement and nothing changes for a while, I'll shorten it at least by getting rid of the opinions without source. Also when there is a source, more often than not it's just a source to the entertainment medium itself, not to a critical analysis.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.234.124.42 (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2015 (UTC) 

The kanji characters (少年) literally mean "boy" (or "youth"). 
What they literally mean is "few year(s)".  What they idiomatically mean is "boy" or "youth".--Shirt58 (talk) 02:17, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Actually it means more than that. It means “boy”, “youth”, “young man” and “Few Years”. It all depends on context. SG1994! (talk) 06:55, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
But in context of manga and anime, it’s mostly used in the narrow sense according to the Japanese dictionary. And in said dictionary, it states the narrow sense of the word “Shonen” refers only to boys around junior high school to high school age. Meaning 12-18. So young teenage boys.  SG1994! (talk) 10:00, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

So I understand female representation is a very broad topic but I don't believe it's deserving of it's own category anymore than Racial, Religious, Political, Sexual Orientation or any other form of representation. I'd argue it's even irrelevant considering the variables isn't fixed on the importance or representation of gender but rather the creators own individual story telling. Sex as hair color or even breathing are just necessary attributes for the characters in said medium. Otherwise this deviates from the main topic. But even if this was appropriate, I don't see the same treatment for its contemporary wiki page for Shojo Manga (manga targeted towards girls). No Category for Male representation, which I'd consider not only a double standard but sexist. Jasonz2z (talk) 10:24, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Of course this is biased section done for obvious PC reasons nowadays. It should be removed or at least trimmed down. 178.43.182.202 (talk) 07:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Who ever messed with this page needs to revert it back to the way it was. Shonen is mot for ages “9 to 18”. The citation we used confirms it targets 12 to 18. SG1994! (talk) 02:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Shonen manga and anime targets early to late teen boys.  SG1994! (talk) 02:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Citations used for the age range of Shonen.
https://thewordcounter.com/meaning-of-shounen/
https://japanesetactics.com/what-does-shounen-mean-in-anime SG1994! (talk) 03:11, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
「週刊少年ジャンプ（ 以下、ジャンプ）」は、少年誌のみならず、全マンガ誌で最多の売り上げを誇る。一般に「少年誌」というと、10代の少年を主要な読者層としてターゲッティングしているイメージがある。しかし、実は「ジャンプ」読者はほかの雑誌と比べても女性読者が多い異色の存在だ。下に掲載したマンガの単行本売り上げデータを見ても、女性読者比率が高い作品が少なくないことが分かる。
Translation: “Weekly Shonen Jump (hereafter referred to as "Jump") boasts the highest sales among all manga magazines as well as shonen magazines. Shonen magazines are generally associated with the image of targeting teenage boys as the main readership. In fact, however, "Jump" readers are unique in that it has more female readers than other magazines. The manga sales data below shows that not a small number of titles have a high percentage of female readers.”
https://style.nikkei.com/article/DGXNASFK31007_R31C12A0000000/ SG1994! (talk) 03:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
https://g2015graman.top/archives/14326.html#i-3
①辞書による「少年」と「青年」の違い！
まずは、「少年」と「青年」の意味を辞書で調べてみます。
【少年】
・年の若い者。おもに十代の男子。未成年者。
【青年】
・年の若い男女。若者。二十歳前後から二十代後半くらいの者をさしていうことが多い。多く男性をさしていう。
(Difference between “boy” and “youth” by dictionary!

First, look up the meaning of “boy” and “youth” in a dictionary.

【boy】
・ Young people of the year.  Mainly teenage boys.  Minors.
[Youth]
-Young men and women of the year.  Youth.  I often refer to people from around the age of 20 to the late 20s.  Say mainly men.) SG1994! (talk) 03:17, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Based on our previous interactions at shōjo manga it's clearly a waste of time to engage you in good faith, but: three of the four sources you've provided ("The Word Counter", "Japanese Tactics", and "Investigate Blog") are random blogs and are plainly not reliable sources. Per your own excerpt of the Nikkei article you've provided, shonen manga is generally associated with teenagers; that does not mean it is exclusively associated with teenagers, and does not contradict the 9-18 age range given by McCarthy. The reality is that these are all notional marketing categories to begin with, so trying to lay down some hard definition about what constitutes a "child" is going to be a fool's errand. Morgan695 (talk) 04:18, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I already posted a reliable source referring to the dictionary definition of Shonen.  SG1994! (talk) 04:30, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
McCarthy is not word of God for the age demographic. Her analysis is shown to be amateurish at best. She is assuming “Shonen” is used in a broad sense when it has been confirmed in several Japanese sources to be used in a narrow sense.  SG1994! (talk) 04:32, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
The translation on Nikkei says  “Shonen magazines are generally associated with the image of targeting teenage boys as the main readership.”
That’s stating the target demographic are mainly teenage boys. 9 to 18 isn’t referring to just teens. 
9 isn’t even in the teen category. 
Shonen is used in a narrow sense when used in context of manga and anime as my dictionary source states SG1994! (talk) 04:37, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
https://g2015graman.top/archives/14326.html#i-3
①辞書による「少年」と「青年」の違い！ まずは、「少年」と「青年」の意味を辞書で調べてみます。
【少年】 ・年の若い者。おもに十代の男子。未成年者。
【青年】 ・年の若い男女。若者。二十歳前後から二十代後半くらいの者をさしていうことが多い。多く男性をさしていう。
1) Difference between "boy" and "youth" according to the dictionary! First, let's look up the meanings of "boy" and "youth" in the dictionary.
A young person. A young person, usually a boy in his teens. A minor.
Young men and women. A young man or woman. It is often used to refer to those who are around 20 years old or in their late 20s. It is often used to refer to men.

SG1994! (talk) 04:38, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not getting into a semantic argument with you over what constitutes a "young person". You're just spouting nonsense at this point. It's a shame that your WP:OWNERSHIP behavior at this page has been devoted exclusively to dying on this weirdly specific hill instead of actually improving an article that's been riddled with issue tags since 2008. Morgan695 (talk) 04:43, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Too bad. All Japanese sources confirm Shonen in context to manga and anime refers to Junior High and High school age males. So 12 to 18. Junior high students are 12 to 15 years old. High school is 15 to 18. 
https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/少年
狭義では中学生・高校生に相当する年齢の男子のみを指す。
(In the narrow sense, it refers only to boys of the age equivalent to junior high school students to high school students.) SG1994! (talk) 04:47, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
The narrow sense of the word is in that context and in manga and anime that is the case. You are factually incorrect.  SG1994! (talk) 04:48, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I can post more reliable sources confirming the age demographic of Shonen being 12 to 18. Article sites are reliable as long as they are not contradicting to the definition SG1994! (talk) 04:51, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
McCarthy’s book is inconsistent and proven wrong based on the context of the word and based on numerous sources in Japanese and English.  SG1994! (talk) 04:52, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
“I'm not getting into a semantic argument with you over what constitutes a "young person".“
Yeah, good. Because you haven’t debunked the facts on the definition in terms of context with manga. 
Shonen is not used in a broad sense. It’s used in a narrow sense. I already explained to you what it refers to in context of manga and anime. 
So until you can prove the Japanese dictionary wrong, you have been debunked and the age range being “12 to 18” will remain. Now leave it.  SG1994! (talk) 04:57, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Here is a page from a book written by Robin E. Brinner called Understanding Manga and Anime. It confirms the target demographic of Shonen manga to be boys 12-18 years of age. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=uY8700WJy_gC&pg=PA1&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=snippet&q=Shonen%20&f=false SG1994! (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Scroll down to page 31 of the book. This was published by a well educated researcher. And this was universally agreed by most to be the most reliable source to understand the Shonen demographic.  SG1994! (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Funny how the reliable published source that supports your POV is "universally agreed by most to be the most reliable source" (by who?), while the reliable published source that does not support your POV is "amateurish at best" and "not a reliable person as her analysis is contradicting". In any case, the article should note both of these ranges per WP:CONFLICTING. Morgan695 (talk) 15:02, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I would propose: Shōnen manga refers to manga aimed at an audience of adolescent boys, with the primary target audience alternately defined as widely as 9 to 18 years old [McCarthy cite] and as narrowly as 12 to 18 years old. [Brenner cite] Morgan695 (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I just posted the book with the page to prove it. McCarthy doesn’t back up her words with credibility. Robin E. Brinner does.  SG1994! (talk) 15:07, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I wouldn’t. Cuz 9 to 18 isn’t as widely accepted. 12 to 18 is widely accepted.  SG1994! (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

This is clearly an unproductive discussion, as you've made it clear that no evidence is going to budge you on this. I'll start a request for comment below shortly. Morgan695 (talk) 15:10, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Saying 12 to 18 as “narrowly” seems inaccurate giving that the Japanese dictionary depicts Shonen in the context of manga to be used in the narrow sense which is referring only to boys in junior high to high school. Which by that logic means it’s 12 to 18. So you can’t use 9 to 18 as an alternate. Cuz it’s not factually true. You’re bias towards McCarthy is showing too much there.  SG1994! (talk) 15:11, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
The conversation is unproductive because you’re the one dismissing all the facts and deeming them as “unreliable” or “blogs”. Doesn’t matter what they are. At least they are backing up their words. That’s what matters. You’re relying on one book which has never been universally accepted by most who truly understand the demographic of Shonen manga.  SG1994! (talk) 15:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
McCarthy’s book was never universally accepted. And lacks the fundamental understanding of what Shonen refers to in a particular context. She uses the broader sense of the word to justify it. When clearly that isn’t the sense the word is used in.  SG1994! (talk) 15:16, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Just because you don’t deem what I post as “reliable” doesn’t mean your words are absolute and above all. You aren’t the admin nor the one who is in charge of this article.  SG1994! (talk) 15:18, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
https://bookriot.com/guide-to-shonen-manga/ 
Beginners Guide To Shonen Manga by Ann-Marie Cahill.
“Shōnen manga is also known as shonen manga or shounen manga — it’s all the same romanised (or converted) name for this specific category of Japanese manga. And while the target audience is male and generally between 12 and 18 years old, you don’t have to BE a teenage boy to like these comics. It’s all about the action and adventure and crazy-arse attitudes.“

SG1994! (talk) 15:22, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

 This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2023 and 9 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ecstasy341 (article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Redoctopus14 (talk) 13:04, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

"Happy endings are common in shōnen manga, but are not obligatory, with writers expressing the happy ending fitting for the demography even if it not comes up as a suitable." 
Either I'm having a stroke or the second half of that sentence is pure word salad. If it were just a matter of clumsy phrasing I'd fix it myself, but I honestly don't even know what it's trying to say. DefiniteHuman (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

User:DefiniteHuman: As I am not a medical professional, I cannot advise you on the state of your cardiovascular or neurological health- but noticing that a meaningless statement is gibberish is definitely not a sign of a stroke. Thanks for pointing that out, I've just removed it so the sentence ends "not obligatory." UrielAcosta (talk) 23:31, 10 July 2025 (UTC)