# Talk:Six Flags AstroWorld

History
60's Original park layout/attractions/design/unique to park
There has got to be a better photo of the clocktower structure in Alpine Valley. The mice animatronics weren't even operating on the day that photo was taken. Jay77tx 22:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Not very many PD images to be found. I took this right before the park closed in October 2005. Postoak 00:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
If it's PD, and it's yours... then it's fabulous for now! Jay77tx 01:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
70's - golden years
80's - waterworld / southern star amphitheater / videocity
I would like to compile a list of performances that occurred at Southern Star. Jay77tx 17:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
90's - Time Warner / park and chain in transition /
2000's -
Mutiple owners
Sponsors - I'd like to try and compile a list of sponsors and the attraction(s) they sponsored. Jay77tx 22:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Incidents - attraction and visitor
Closing events
I think the article's history section should be grouped by decades. This would eliminate many of the single-line paragraphs. What do you think? Postoak 00:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Understood. As I began to add entries to each year, it became clear that decade grouping was going to be necessary for cleanup. I will revise as soon as possible unless you wish to revert to a prior version. I'd be happy if you'd let me have a chance to reorganize everything. Jay77tx 01:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure thing, great work. I'm checking for references to add. Look at the old Time magazine article from '68 I just added! Postoak 01:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, my goodness! The article mentions the E.P.C.O.T. being planned! I love it! Jay77tx 17:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I am a former AstroWorld worker and I attempted to add a reference to a short ethnographic study of AstroWorld. An administrator deleted this reference. While I was the author, this added important information about the entry and offered one of the few published pieces on the theme park. It's unfortunate that an encyclopedia cannot included academic as well as popular information. I also believe that first-hand knowledge of a subject should count for something on Wikipedia. Xrhetor (talk) 19:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Xrhetor, this is not about "censorship", "tolerance", "politics" or any of the other false claims you're making about my actions. Simply put, a substantial percentage of your edits have involved anonymously posting links, text and other references to your own published work. You may well disagree with the decision to remove your self-references per the conflict of interest and other guidelines, as is your right. You're also certainly entitled to seek other opinions. However, I must object to your chosen methodology, which to date has involved the misrepresentation of both my actions and your own edits. If you want to have a fair, balanced discussion about this, by all means do so in a centralized location rather than on a series of unconnected talk pages, and be clear about what has really occurred. Making false claims, and spreading those claims to multiple pages, does not strike me as "fair" under any definition of the term. --Ckatzchatspy 23:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Ckatz, you have helped prove a point here. You are the arbiter and you are the one who gets to decide the nature of the content. This has been taken to a new level. I am not permitted to cite my own work, even though, to again quote Wikipedia's policy ("This policy does not prohibit editors with specialist knowledge from adding their knowledge to Wikipedia, but it does prohibit them from drawing on their personal knowledge without citing reliable sources. If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, the editor may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our neutrality policy. See also Wikipedia's guidelines on conflict of interest.") this can be allowed. Here is one example of how this ultimately impacts the quality of Wikipedia entries. If I wanted to discuss an ethnographic study of the theme park AstroWorld, which some might consider significant, I could not do this per your watchdogging. To do so would be to cite the only work published in this regard, which I have written. So, here you (Ckatz ) fail Wikipedia in two respects: (1) you have limited the encyclopedic content of an entry, (2) you have decided that expert knowledge on a subject is irrelevant. The new level, as you now have raised it, involves your rebuking of my contributions to a number of 'talk' pages. Talk pages are not part of the entry (directly) and now you are deeming those contributions to be illicit. But, certainly, this is not about the power of language, representation or politics...because, so it seems, you have said so.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xrhetor (talk • contribs) 23:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC) 

Just for future editing possibilities; Now that the land has been purchased and a new development might be constructed on this site, should the "current" use of this land be added, or should the article basically be frozen?--Hourick (talk) 19:22, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Regarding Special Events:  In the process of editing Fright Fest, I have noticed that this article contains no mention of Fright Nights, which began in 1986 and ended in 1993, when it was renamed Fright Fest.  The event then continued until the park closed in 2005.  Judging from comments and reviews I have seen all over the internet, this event was quite important to both the locals and the park staff.  It seems an oversight to not include some history of it here.  A case could be made that Six Flags Fright Fest, which continues today in all their parks, was actually born at AstroWorld as Fright Nights.  The earliest reference to Fright Fest at any other Six Flags park is 1989. DoneOddjob84 (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

While likely true, this is original research, speculation, and not really suitable for a wiki article. You would need to find an outside source that reaches this conclusion.—JlACEer (talk) 15:42, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Noting that Fright Nights at AstroWorld preceded Fright Fest at Six Flags over Texas by two years hardly qualifies as original research; more like a thuddingly obvious observation.  If you are going to use that fine a sieve for everything amusement park, you'll be very busy.  There are some whoppers out there.  Oddjob84 (talk) 19:01, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Regarding Shows:  In looking over the article, one would get the impression that AstroWorld was strictly a ride park.  This is not completely true.  For example, the Batman Forever Stunt Show, which ran 1995-1997 won the "best show" award each year it was open, voted by the Six Flags entertainment directors systemwide.  There are any number of internet references to other well-received shows.
I would suggest adding a section to the article for Shows and Special Events.  Oddjob84 (talk) 15:07, 15 March 2017 (UTC) Done  Oddjob84 (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Added a concert list to the Southern Star Amphitheater page.  Oddjob84 (talk) 13:18, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-uuI9oc7JM
https://www.chron.com/houston/slideshow/Looking-back-at-AstroWorld-52-years-after-the-203630.php
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/bayou-city-history/article/Memories-of-AstroWorld-stronger-than-ever-51-13923987.php
https://www.houstoniamag.com/news-and-city-life/2018/05/astroworld While his article makes some interesting claims about the reasons for the park's closing and about the desire of Mayor Turner to have another amusement park in Houston, these claims seemed more like speculation rather than sound reporting and I did not think they were appropriate for the article. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 13:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
https://www.houstonpress.com/arts/check-out-this-astroworld-documentary-on-youtube-9305620
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Fright-Fest-AstroWorld-Halloween-9871660.php
https://www.click2houston.com/entertainment/2018/06/01/celebrate-astroworlds-50th-birthday-with-walk-down-memory-lane/
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/This-week-in-2005-AstroWorld-closed-its-gates-10307466.php
https://www.chron.com/life/article/Houston-Six-Flags-AstroWorld-roller-coaster-day-11822843.php
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/judge-roy-scream-vs-the-texas-cyclone/
http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,900135,00.html
Travis Scott
https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/travis-scott-astroworld-amusement-park/
https://www.nme.com/news/music/travis-scott-inspired-mayor-houston-develop-new-amusement-park-city-2448795
https://www.click2houston.com/entertainment/2018/08/10/astroworld-revival-travis-scott-announces-music-fest-named-after-beloved-houston-theme-park/
https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/hip-hop/8469642/travis-scott-astroworld-festival-details
---Another Believer (Talk) 21:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for providing these. Should save interested editors some time. The gap in the history section is large, and there's a lot to add between the park's opening and closure. One thing to keep in mind is that newspaper articles and local news reports are very helpful for dates, announcements, and general perspective on the way the park promoted itself. However, we should be cautious and avoid relying too heavily on primary sources. Another important point to be aware of is that they tend to be unreliable for ride specifications and features (they often round, approximate, or just flat out miss the mark). JlACEer has access to an extensive collection of amusement-related magazines, books, and other secondary sources that I'm sure can aid in the rebuild and help maintain NPOV as the article expands. --GoneIn60 (talk) 07:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
GoneIn60, Thanks. I invite JlACEer to share sources and make improvements to the article as possible based on sourcing. I have no doubt they are very capable and much more familiar with the subject than myself. However, as I've said before, I now have this article on my watchlist and will continue to remove unsourced content without hesitation, no exceptions.
I'm not meaning to pawn work off to others here, but if anyone else wants to help review the above sources, make sure they've been incorporated into the article's prose appropriately, then strike the URL so we know a check has taken place, that'd be super helpful. If every editor who has contributed to this talk page in the last week checked just 2 sources, we'd be done with reviewing what's been added thus far. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Remembering-WaterWorld-Houston-s-chlorinated-12915629.php
https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/WaterWorld-AstroWorld-Photos-Houston-Memories-11280285.php
https://blog.chron.com/bayoucityhistory/2011/06/waterworld-in-photos-and-words/
I know AstroWorld and WaterWorld merged, but should we create a separate page for the water park? ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

You need to do something. You removed all the WaterWorld content but the page Six Flags Waterworld redirects back to Six Flags AstroWorld which currently has no information about the water park that used to exist there.—JlACEer (talk) 01:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
JlACEer, Feel free to add back sourced information about WaterWorld. ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
WaterWorld would not be the first Six Flags water park to have its own article, that shares the same operations as the theme park (ie. Six Flags Hurricane Harbor (Darien Lake) and White Water Bay (Texas)). I agree with JlACEer, If there is no main article, then the water park attractions should be listed on the main page of Six Flags AstroWorld. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpp858 (talk • contribs) 05:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
A level 2 or level 3 section dedicated to WaterWorld is warranted, and as long as the list of rides isn't long, then we might want to stick with a concise bulleted list with just the names. As mentioned in another thread on this talk page, we should focus more on prose in the main park article and strongly consider branching off into a list article for all the ride charts. --GoneIn60 (talk) 07:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
I, too, would welcome a section dedicated to WaterWorld within this article. I'm not opposed to a standalone article at some point, but a section here is a good place to start. ---Another Believer (Talk) 13:48, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 There's now a subsection dedicated to the water park. Expansion and other improvements welcome! ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


### Image for WaterWorld?
I don't see any images of WaterWorld at Commons. Do any editors have some to upload? ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


### Table of slides and pools
I just removed the following unsourced table of slides and pools at WaterWorld, but saving here for future reference:

---Another Believer (Talk) 22:06, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Should there be an article for Tidal Wave? I'm not familiar with notability requirements for amusement rides. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

The would depend on the availability of sources. Although there are some pages for individual shoot-the-chute rides such as Snake River Falls, I personally don't think these types of rides are notable enough to warrant a separate article.—JlACEer (talk) 01:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Another editor created Tidal Wave (Six Flags AstroWorld) but the page was redirected to this article. ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The intro mentions 57 acres and later expanding to over 75 acres; the History section and introduction mention 104 acres. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

We may want to cut some of the material from the lede and paste it into the body if it is sourced. Otherwise I think we should leave the rewrite of the lede for last. It is supposed to cover the main parts of the article, should only capture content that is sourced in the body of the article, and need not be sourced for that reason. Therefore, we can rewrite the lede after we have a better idea of what the main points of the aritcle will be. It's like a detective novel: it's writing the start of the story last after you find out how the story ends. best, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 23:49, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Oldsanfelipe2, I agree with your approach. ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I think I've completed this, but welcome your additional trims or other improvements as you see fit. ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
This source says 110 acres. ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
This source, a reprinted article from 1968, says 57 acres. I believe this is reflected in the current version of the article. Perhaps there were future expansions, but this confirms the opening size. ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

110 acres corresponds to the amount of real estate purchased by Fred Hofheinz adjacent to the Astrodome (per Handbook of Texas Online). Hofheinz developed only 57 acres for the opening (HTO). I am a bit circumspect about journalistic articles on history. I have also seen ambiguities in real estate writing. In one of the chronicle articles above, it refers to "110 acre site" in 2005. This equivocates "site." I am guessing that Hofheinz sold his 110-acre tract to Six Flags, not just the part of his real estate holding with amusement park infrastructure. If Six Flags built roller coaster and other rides over the years, there are only two possibilities. Either they tore down and removed old equipment to make room for the new, or the new rides occupied an area beyond the initial 57-acre footprint. Did Six Flags develop all 110 acres? Maybe not. But the Chronicle article does not tell us. I am guessing that this is just sloppy writing and that the 110 acre number just represents the size of the total real estate holding and does not represent the size of the amusement park. I have in the past challenged Chronicle history articles when they were demonstrably incorrect. For this reason, I urge caution when citing newspaper articles to support history in Wikipedia. Best, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 14:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2011-aug-25-la-fi-recycled-roller-coasters-20110825-story.html
---Another Believer (Talk) 01:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.houstonpress.com/arts/where-are-astroworlds-roller-coasters-now-6376818
---Another Believer (Talk) 04:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.chron.com/business/article/Astroworld-memorabilia-to-go-on-the-auction-block-1886497.php
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/AstroWorld-auction-How-to-get-your-hands-on-13587496.php
---Another Believer (Talk) 04:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Did Alice Cooper actually perform at the park, or was his name just associated with a seasonal event? This source says, "There were special concerts from acts like Alice Cooper, easily the most Halloween-friendly rocker ever." To me, this suggests he performed, so I've updated the article accordingly, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding. ---Another Believer (Talk) 11:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@JlACEer: I added back the text you removed re: Brutal Planet, but changed "event" to "attraction". I understand this means the text should possibly be moved out of the Events section, but I think the article should mention Brutal Planet in some form. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
It was an attraction — a haunted house, it does not belong under the events listing.—JlACEer (talk) 15:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
JlACEer, I literally just said that directly above. Feel free to move, but not delete, the text. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:58, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I've found a couple passing mentions of Holiday in the Park in sources, but not much detail. Know of any helpful sources for expanding the description of this annual event? ---Another Believer (Talk) 11:33, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.chron.com/houston/article/New-AstroWorld-exhibit-at-Houston-library-lets-7231603.php
---Another Believer (Talk) 14:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be mentioned in the Legacy section?
"Linklater and company were busy filming footage for scenes set inside Houston’s famed and fabled theme park, Astroworld... One of the sequences involved a melancholy teenage abominable snowman attempting to scare the main character and his friends on the park’s popular Alpine Sleigh Ride... The crew was able to give me glimpses of the intense research they did to replicate the experience of Astroworld in 1969, right down to the staff uniforms, period-perfect hair and wardrobe on the patrons... Astroworld itself was an industrial, cartoon-maze of colorful metal and joyous abandon, living on in the imaginations of older native Houstonians as a perfect childhood utopia."

https://preview.houstonchronicle.com/movies-tv/on-the-set-of-director-richard-linklater-s-15428599
---Another Believer (Talk) 14:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

All for it, that would be a good mention. Adog (Talk・Cont) 14:41, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Should this article address injuries in any way? I'm sure injuries have happened at most amusement parks, so I don't want to add unnecessary detail. But, if helpful, here are some sources:

https://www.houstonpress.com/news/thrilled-to-death-6586723
This article has quite a bit of detail about injuries, and has some general claims as well, such as: "But pinning down the true accident rate at AstroWorld is tough. The Texas Department of Insurance reports 329 people have been injured at the park since 1988, when the state began requiring parks to report injuries that result in medical treatment."
https://www.chron.com/this-forgotten-day-in-houston/article/38-years-ago-Girl-survives-coaster-fall-at-6448516.php
https://www.chron.com/this-forgotten-day-in-houston/article/1974-Woman-injured-on-ride-sues-Astroworld-6753722.php
---Another Believer (Talk) 14:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Another Believer: for sure if they're about general park injuries or flat rides. Incidents at amusement parks (as with roller coasters) should be cited in their own "Incidents and accidents" section. Though if it's about a roller coaster I would leave that relevant information to the individuals 'coasters article rather than the amusement park's article. See also Incidents at Six Flags parks#Six Flags AstroWorld is helpful to link to, as citing all injuries on all attractions may become WP:UNDUE if listed in the main article's body. Adog (Talk・Cont) 14:34, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

The roller coasters table just says "Texas Tornado". How shall we incorporate the name "Taz's Texas Tornado"? ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Related: https://rcdb.com/492.htm suggests there's more history to add to the Notes cell. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

This source mentions Magnetic House and the Barrel of Fun, which I don't believe are mentioned within the article. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

This source says, "Batman the Escape, a stand-up steel roller coaster, at AstroWorld in Houston, Texas, (transplanted from Great Adventure and rethemed)." ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Here a professor ranked Texas Cyclone number 1 on his list of most exciting extant coasters. Worth including or unnecessary detail? ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:13, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

David Eagleman visited the park for a "perceptual chronometer" study. Worth adding?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/04/25/the-possibilian
---Another Believer (Talk) 15:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.napha.org/LibraryResources/NAPHAChronicleMagazine/MagazineBackIssues1978-1989/tabid/306/Default.aspx
---Another Believer (Talk) 23:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I think several of these Flickr images from 2004 have already been uploaded to Commons, but I figured I'd share the link here in case others can be used as well:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hagerman/albums/308127
---Another Believer (Talk) 16:22, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mliu92: First, I want to thank you for your recent edits to this article. However, I see the table for 'Original rides and attractions (1968)' has quite a few empty cells. If there are columns with only a couple cells filled in, I'd suggest removing the column. The Images, Closed, and Manufacturer fields in particular seem problematic. There's just one image, so this can probably be displayed as a thumb outside the table. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks - I actually copied the table headers from the rollercoasters table below. I closed out the Images column and added a few more entries for Closed and Mfr, will continue to research those. Cheers, Mliu92 (talk) 15:15, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Photographs of the scale model; unfortunately, not licensed for Wikimedia Commons. Cheers, Mliu92 (talk) 02:11, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Mliu92, Do we need the "Opened" column, if all cells are 1968, as indicated by the table's title? ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:59, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
@Another Believer: good point, I removed the 1968 column here. Cheers, Mliu92 (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Mliu92, Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Main tag: AstroWorld:
Baskett Family Films - AstroWorld (1968) includes footage of AstroWay AstroWheel, Spin Out, Wagon Wheel, AstroNeedle
I'm not familiar enough with the other rides to comment on which are shown in later movies. Cheers, Mliu92 (talk) 15:10, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

 Image request: Model of the park at the Julia Ideson Building. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:19, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Very bummed to see Serial Thriller and Thunder River (ride) deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ednör – L'Attaque and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thunder River (ride). The AfD discussions received almost no participation. Not sure if these should be restored? ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:38, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think these deletion notices were given enough time or sent to the right locations to generate discussion. Until yesterday I didn't even know that the page Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Amusement parks existed, not that it would matter as Serial Thriller wasn't even listed there. Is it common practice to delete just one week after posting a notice? From what I have been able to find on mirror sites there appears to have been some good information on Thunder River.—JlACEer (talk) 17:46, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@JlACEer Would you be interested in seeking restoration for both? The closing notes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ednör – L'Attaque and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thunder River (ride) provide instructions. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:34, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@JlACEer Per WP:AfD, discussions can indeed be closed after at least 7 days. ~~~~User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:18, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
Not helpful and not really an answer to my question. Obviously, it can be done, my question was: Is it common practice? — or in other words should it have been done? Particularly since there had been no discussion and you didn't bother to notify any of the editors who had contributed or to post a notice to a location where it might have been seen. What do we need to do to get these pages restored? There are plenty of legitimate references to be found and I can work on these articles — although not right away.—JlACEer (talk) 18:46, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
@JlACEer The deletion discussion pages have links at the top for requesting entry restorations. Holler if you need help with this. Or, go here and here. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:51, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
NM, see Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion#Thunder_River_(ride) and Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion#Ednör_–_L'Attaque. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:32, 13 January 2022 (UTC) The pages have been restored. ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:25, 13 January 2022 (UTC)