# Talk:The Notorious Byrd Brothers

Is this available to read online?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:22, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away on holiday. Umm...I don't think they would be available online, possibly because of copyright concerns??? Were you asking with regard to the, "It came to be widely regarded as one of the Byrds' best LP releases, as well as their most experimental and progressive" sentence, which I see you've twice now put a "text integrity tag" next to? If so, I'll have a look at Fricke's booklet essay and quote the relevant bits verbatim for you, if you'd like? --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 18:58, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
@Kohoutek1138: Yeah I'd also like a direct quote regarding the genres. I noticed that the other source mentions "chamber pop", yet that wasn't included in the text, which makes me think that it was arbitrarily replaced with "baroque pop" (saying that this album "contains elements of baroque pop" is a big red flag; it doesn't, really).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:51, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll check the notes, but I'm happy to replace baroque pop with chamber pop, if the Fricke source doesn't specifically name that genre. Though it may well do. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 15:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
@Ilovetopaint: I took a look at Fricke's liner notes: he describes the album's second track ("Goin' Back") as, "a baroque pop masterpiece that floated to heaven on wisps of pedal steel and harpsichord", which is possibly where the mention of baroque pop comes from. In addition, he also describes the album as a whole as "reconfiguring the rich catalog of styles and traditions in [the Byrds'] trademark sound", and then makes reference to "McGuinn's folk-rock 12-string Rickenbacker" and "Hillman's country and bluegrass influence" as examples of those 'styles and traditions'.
Tim Conners' article on the Byrdwatcher site also references "Goin' Back" by saying "Like most of the Notorious tracks, it's leavened with hints of country (the pedal steel of Red Rhodes), electronic rock (a Moog synthesizer), and Sgt. Pepper-style chamber pop (a celeste, cello and harp)." Conners also cites "Natural Harmony" as a song that showed "that Crosby was not the only Byrd with an interest in jazz", clearly meaning that it is a jazz-influenced song.
However, the source that actually best supports the Wikipedia article's second sentence is reference #27 -- pages 240-247 of Johnny Rogan's Timeless Flight. Rogan writes, "The Notorious Byrd Brothers displayed the Byrds at the height of their creative powers and psychedelic experimentation. Their achievement on the album lay in creating a seamless mood piece from blending a variety of different musical sources ... jazz and psychedelia ("Natural Harmony"), country picking and psychedelic rock ("I Wasn't Born to Follow"), country and baroque pop ("Old John Robertson"), folk rock and the Moog synthesizer ("Space Odyssey").
So, my suggestion would be to move the Rogan reference to the end of the article's second sentence -- it may have been there originally and has gotten moved by another editor over time, or maybe I simply forgot it. Anyway, by moving the Rogan reference to support that sentence, I think all of those genres mentioned are covered, with two of the sources (Rogan & Connors) describing the blending of different styles or genres on the record. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 17:16, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Sensible stuff here. I think Rogan is the leader in Byrdology, and his comments are spot on. However, he has made serious changes to the original Timeless flight book, two huge doorstops - Requiem For The Timeless Vols 1 and 2Muso805 (talk) 10:08, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Funnily enough Kohoutek1138, I think there'd probably be a good deal less "genre warring" if you actually bothered to make the supporting claims visible anywhere in the article. A friendly tip. gentlecollapse6 (talk) 15:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry Gentlecollapse6, I've only just seen this message (I haven't been on Wiki for a few days). I get your point and I see in the guidelines over at Template: Infobox album it suggests that genres should "be stated and referenced in the body of the article", rather than in the infobox itself (unless they are controversial genres, I assume). I'll take a look at the article, and if that's not the case, I'll rectify it. It shouldn't be hard to do: it's not like we're suggesting the album is something unlikely such as Garage Rock or Synth Pop. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 19:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Dear  Kohoutek1138 --
Greetings — I recently submitted the following edits:
1) "…Clarke was replaced in August 1967 during the second set of recording sessions, only returning briefly…"
2) "…Clarke quit the sessions after having played on two songs, over disputes with Crosby…" 
3) " Michel Clarke — drums on "Artificial Energy", "Draft Morning", "Old John Robertson", and "Change Is Now" ("Universal Mind Decoder")"
3) "Jim Gordon – drums on "Goin' Back", "Natural Harmony", "Wasn't Born to Follow", "Bound to Fall", "Tribal Gathering", "Dolphin's Smile", and "Triad" "
In response, you wrote, Reverting edits that are mostly wrong -- Rogan's sessionography says Clarke plays on "Change Is Now" and the version of "Tribal Gathering" that's on the album. Also, changes to the article lede were too detailed: was better how it was.  Please note, nevertheless, that my information was taken from Rogan’s book, Timeless Flight Revisited — The Sequel, and is fully correct as of its July 2001 revision date.  As you mention Rogan as well, could it be that this information was revised post-2001?  Otherwise, I invite you to discuss my edits based on not only Rogan’s information but also the aural evidence.  (Note: I stated that Clarke indeed played on "Change Is Now"; therefore, your comment may be misplaced.)
Awaiting your reply.
Best regards
James O. 2600:1700:7800:2A30:297C:F2CD:8383:7F0C (talk) 03:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi James O, I'm drawing the sessionography information from the most up-to-date version, as printed in Johnny Rogan's 2011 book, Byrds: Requiem for the Timeless, Volume 1, and then cross-referencing it with Christopher Hjort's 2008 book and Ric Menck's 33⅓ book from 2007 (though I will always give more weight to Rogan if there is ever a discrepancy, because he's by far the most accurate source in these matters). Apologies if you had "Change Is Now" correct in your edits, I must've got confused!
I don't think it is really accurate to say that Clarke was absent from the studio after the second set of recording sessions for the album because there were actually seven days worth of sessions between April 26th, 1967 and June 21st, 1967 that Clarke participated in. Yes, I know that "Lady Friend" wasn't included on the album, but it was always in contention for the follow-up to Younger Than Yesterday...well, until it flopped as a single anyway! So, even the earliest "Don't Make Waves" and "Lady Friend" sessions in April 1967 were, in effect, recording sessions for the album (even though that's not how we are supposed to measure recordings sessions on Wikipedia in the article infoboxes).
But regardless of whether you consider sessions for the album to have started in April '67 or June '67, stating how many recording sessions Clarke had attended before walking out of the studio is too trivial for the article lede, I think. The lede should only summarise the most important points from the article.
I checked my copy of Timeless Flyte Revisited - The Sequel (Revised 2nd Edition) and the sessionorgraphy there is the same as in Byrds: Requiem for the Timeless, Volume 1, in that it credits Clarke with playing drums on the version of "Tribal Gathering" that is on the album. There was an earlier version of "Tribal Gathering" attempted with Jim Gordon on drums between 14-18th August. This earlier version received additional overdubs in late August and November, but it was ultimately rejected and remains unreleased. The version of the song on the album was committed to tape during sessions on December 5th and 6th, 1967, with Clarke playing the drums.
Hope that explains things a bit more?
Regards, Kohoutek1138 (talk) 17:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
Dear Kohoutek1138 --
Thank you for your detailed response — which is well received.
In my subjective world, the audit trail of post-Younger Than Yesterday session dates suggests sessions for the album proper commenced with the 31JUL—03AUG date (which I heretofore considered "Session I").  My reasoning was that the previous post-Yesterday sessions (APR, JUN) focused fully on the next single ("Lady Friend" / "Old John Robertson") and soundtrack offering ("Don’t Make Waves"); therefore, I’ve always been of the mind that these were not formally recognized at that time as follow-up LP sessions. In retrospect, nevertheless, the subject single B-side being included on Notorious makes a satisfying argument in favour of the APR starting date.  I agree with your reasoning and thank you for providing your valuable input.    
As the floor is open so to speak, I see that Hal Blaine has entered the proceedings — listed as drumming on "Flight 713" and "Get To You".  As he’s not mentioned in any of the documentation up through JUL 2001, this newer information must have come about via Rogan’s follow-up offering, Byrds: Requiem for the Timeless.  Hal is a masterful drummer; however, his late 1960s style is routinely heavier than Jim Gordon’s from the same period — who is markedly quite nimble; so, I’m curious of the origin of this documentation.
As for Clarke playing on the released "Tribal Gathering", I don’t believe he did for the following reasons.
I. The aural evidence strongly suggests the playing is not consistent with his style.  His technique, as exemplified by the preceding four LPs — which is loose and heavy — shows no technical aspects consistent with the light, lilting and agile sticking technique heard on both the 5/4 swing or the straight 4/4 back-beat sections.  Further, the technique heard is a solid match for Jim Gordon’s tight and nimble style as displayed on The City’s (Carole King) lone LP from 1968 (c.f. the opening selection, "Snow Queen", which is a swing waltz and technically consistent with the 5/4 swing of "Tribal Gathering" as both are played with smooth fluidity.)  
II. The master numbers and session date audit trail offer much value as well.  I believe we’re in agreement that the infamous argument — climaxing with Clarke’s volunteering to be replaced by another drummer — occurred during the 14-18AUG sessions (for "Dolphin’s Smile" and "Tribal Gathering").  Conjecture tells me that this probably occurred early on, as well: Rogan reports that Clarke usually didn’t have much time to work-up on-the-spot rhythms in the studio; and while this isn’t a big deal for most simple rock tunes it, nevertheless, was a big deal given Crosby’s 1967 pieces were increasingly complex in their arrangements.  I conjecture that while Clarke couldn’t find the handle on a drum pattern that was even keel as it were to satisfy Crosby’s sea shanty, his abilities — again as measured against the previous four LPs — suggests he would have struggled far more with a suitable 5/4 pattern required for "Tribal Gathering" not to mention fills and turnarounds, and transitions in and out of 4/4 to boot!  (Remember, when Clarke apparently left, the group hadn’t yet started recording "Tribal Gathering".)
In any event, as it all broke down during "Dolphin’s Smile" (Master #94926), studio ace Jim Gordon got the call and efficiently delivered the booty to Crosby’s satisfaction.  Next up, "Tribal Gathering" (assigned the next Master #94927).  By all reasonable accounts of how complex pop music was "assembled" in the post-Revolver era, drums and bass most surely were initially committed to tape (particularly so as the unfamiliar 5/4 time, with no drums, would be difficult to follow in the subsequent tracking sessions!).  The technically adroit Gordon managed the odd meter with fluid aplomb and surely fit hand-in-glove with Hillman to lay down the base rhythm track to Crosby’s satisfaction.  All the more, given the presumed efficiency at hand, there was time to overdub piano.  Notwithstanding that at minimum a guide-rhythm guitar was already present as Crosby’s dictation of the 5/4 rhythm was crucial in leading the initial recording of the track, conjecture fuels the thought that given Crosby’s excitement with the successful track (and being quite a unique Byrds song), he probably also tracked a scratch vocal.  
Given the song’s unique structure and difficult melody, it not surprising that there are subsequent unfinished sessions at hand.  The unfinished 29-30AUG overdub sessions most likely regarded Crosby attempting to finalize his lead vocal and assemble harmony vocals, and McGuinn attempting both his 4/4-section solos and his 5/4-section embellishments.  As this is a difficult song, it’s not surprising that it lay unfinished to Crosby’s satisfaction at this point.  With Crosby gone, we can safely presume the 29-30NOV sessions addressed a need to re-work and/or finish the song sans Crosby’s direction.
Approaching the 05-06DEC session, the most important fact is that the Master number remained #94927 — indicating that this was not a new recording / version; instead, the group would have continued their on-going work from where they left off on 29-30NOV.  Whatever transpired on 05-06DEC for "Tribal Gathering" was surely minor and regarded finishing up either vocals and/or McGuinn’s guitar.
The aural evidence would seem to confirm "Tribal Gathering" as released is from the initial 14-18AUG session recordings as evidenced by the presence of the uncredited piano overdubbed at those sessions as well as Crosby’s distinguishable tenor harmony vocal (and quite possibly his guitar as well).  Although it’s possible, I suppose that in order to save Crosby’s backing vocals, they could have started a new version from just his rhythm guitar and vocal, this unconventional approach doesn’t seem warranted, however, given the group had been working on finalizing the 14-18AUG session version.
For his part (as of 2001 anyway), Rogan stated that the sessionography is simply a transcription from the 1987 Murray Hill issue and the 1990s Columbia CD issues; therefore, not only did Rogan not personally confirm the documentation, but his admission would seem to suggest that he did not listen to the session tapes.  
Even more interesting is that Columbia’s 1996 Notorious Byrd Brothers CD issue lists a 16AUG recording date for "Tribal Gathering" — which would seem to confirm successful completion of the intact basic track on that date. (This is the same date assigned to "Dolphin’s Smile".  This suggests that Gordon nailed both drum parts on that day then split (as his expensive services were no longer needed) leaving Crosby to direct the subsequent overdubs for both selections during the balance of the sessions: 17-18AUG.)
Whatever occurred for "Tribal Gathering" during 05-06DEC it was surely minimal, given "Artificial Energy" undoubtedly dominated the two-day proceedings as it required maximum time and effort to rehearse and record (including overdubs, inserts and the employment of session musicians along with the brass arrangement), and at a minimum stage the unique post-production attributes (which only required McGuinn, Usher and Halee).
Based on the documented evidence, the aural evidence and what I like to offer as reasonable conjecture, I can’t see that Clarke was behind the kit for "Tribal Gathering".  Ultimately, however, only an aural review of the session tapes from the 05-06DEC session could confirm this.  
Best regards,
James O. 2600:1700:7800:2A30:85DE:A835:75B0:41D8 (talk) 01:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The interpretation of the lyrics of "Artificial Energy" as currently stated are wrong and based on misinformation. Specifically, it states that the protagonist is in jail for killing a homosexual man based on the line "...and I'm in jail 'cause I killed a queen". However, the actual lyrics are "...and I'm in jail 'cause I killed THE queen" (emphasis mine). Earlier in the song the protagonist mentions "I'm king for a night" so if anything it suggests maybe he killed his partner. You can listen to the song and hear these are the correct lyrics. camsterSD (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

You'll need a reliable third-party source that proves that the lyrics are "killed the queen", as opposed to "killed a queen", if you want to change it, as the latter is sourced from Johnny Rogan's excellent biography of the band. Author Ric Menke also says that the song's final line is about murdering a homosexual in his The Notorious Byrd Brothers book from the 33⅓ series. Rogan is generally a very reliable source, and so is Menke, but if you can find an alternative respected source stating that the line is in fact "killed THE queen", then it could be added as an alternate interpretation of the line. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 14:38, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
Completely anecdotally, I just took a listen to the song again and, to my ears, it definitely sounds like "killed a queen". --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 14:21, 9 June 2025 (UTC)