# Talk:Sue Bailey Thurman

@Rosiestep: Does this qualify as "original research"? First recipient Marian Banfield of Howard University. Derricott Committee awards 2 Sondra Elise Banfield Dailey was the first born of the late Dr. Gilbert Leslie Banfield and Marion Elza Martin Banfield, God- Daughter of the late Howard Thurman. ... nieces and nephews Jada Pinkett Smith ... Sondra Elise Banfield, obit. What I want to say is that Banfield, who was Thurman's goddaughter, was the first recipient of the scholarship and would later become the grandmother of JPS. (Marian Banfield is mentioned in JPS's bio as grandmother). SusunW (talk) 04:08, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

@SusunW: It's not original research if the sentences have an inline citation, i.e. sentence1 has citation1, sentence2 has citation2, sentence3 and citation3, and so on. Peppy is a big dog.(citation1) Peppy plays with Pokey the cat.(citation2) Pokey is fond of big dogs.(citation3) Original research would be to say, "Pokey is fond of Peppy". This probably doesn't make as much sense written down as it does in my brain, but I'm getting tired. --Rosiestep (talk) 04:20, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
@Rosiestep: I think I get the gist. Make the statements, cite them, don't interpret it. SusunW (talk) 04:26, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
@SusunW: Much better said than the Pokey and Peppy example. Where in the world did that come from, I will never know! Lol! --Rosiestep (talk) 04:35, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
@Rosiestep: Tired too, but Pokey and Peppy got me where I needed to be. My goal is to add something every day until we are at 15K characters and then turn Ian and Dr. B loose on her to c/e the prose. LOL SusunW (talk) 04:42, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

@Rosiestep: I think we have covered most of the important stuff. Do you want to do a copy edit or add anything? And anything you want to do to the lede would be lovely. I am not good at it. Seems repetitive to me, so I am always leaving stuff out. SusunW (talk) 00:19, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@SusunW: Yes, definitely, I'll do the c/e and the lede building. I just flew into LA. Ok if I work on it over the weekend, or is there a rush? --Rosiestep (talk) 04:19, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
@Rosiestep: No rush at all. When you get around to it.  SusunW (talk) 06:14, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
@SusunW: I've done a preliminary c/e but I think I should look at it again in a couple of days with a fresh set of eyes. I like doing citation cleanup but the current citation styles give me pause. I am more familiar with sfn for book refs, and Wikipedia's citation templates for everything else. I won't change what's there now as I know that's not cool, but the citations do need some cleanup. For example, some refs refer to page as p (no period) while others refer to it as p. (with a period); some citations are first name first, while others are surname first. --Rosiestep (talk) 05:16, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Rosiestep I use wiki templates on all citations except multiple pages in a book and always go last name first. I find it hysterical, really, that the programmers would put a period after p or pp as all other punctuation and or verbiage usually seen in citations (vol., no., etc.) either doesn't appear or people remove if you input. I even have people remove location and access date all the time. But, I have no problem putting a period in there. I also find it totally weird that they don't have a template on the pull down citation for additional pages, but they don't. As for ones with first name first, no idea. I don't input them like that, so I guess just change them if you think we should.) SusunW (talk) 15:16, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
I think I got them all changed. But, if I missed one, please feel free to fix it ;) SusunW (talk) 00:33, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@Rosiestep: I think I got all the dates changed to US format. What a project ufff. I also think I added brief explanations/intros of who the other notables were, as it was pointed out to me that while I might know who W.E.B. Dubois was, many would not know him, or Langston Hughes, or Louise Thompson, or Mary McLeod Bethune etc. Now on photos, things I'd like:

) a photo of them in India.
) a photo of maybe the covers of her two books
) a photo of the Church for the Fellowship of All Peoples
Anyone know how we find these? Mayhaps we could borrow We hope's expertise if she isn't too busy with other projects. SusunW (talk) 17:28, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I can try looking for these when I'm done over here Talk:Bentworth. We hope (talk) 18:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks We hope, I was sure you had other irons in the fire. I perused the collection at Emory and a couple other sites. I find things, but I have no idea if we can use. SusunW (talk) 20:39, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
) her dad, REV. I. G. BAILEY, Pine Bluff, Ark.: [1] non free-see the note on the page " © This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text." We need to have permission for commercial use also, so the photo can be used by anyone for whatever purpose they may have. We hope (talk) 15:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
) her mom, Mrs. S. E. Bailey: [2] Page at Emory "Copyright 2006 Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia."-at botom of the page. We hope (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
) her with Gandhi: [3] Unfortunetely, this also has an Emory copyright notice on it. under the photo. We hope (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
) Church...of All Peoples: [4] When you first look at this, it appears to be free because of the Creative Commons license.  But when you look closely at the license, it indicates the photo can't be used for commercial purposes (the dollar sign crossed out).  We can't use photos with this license--we need to have ones that are licensed for commercial use too.  It's not that we intend to use the photo commercially, but others who come to WP and Commons for photos may have that in mind and the WMF intends that we use Creative Commons licenses that permit commercial use. We hope (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
) Pioneers of Negro Origin in California [5]
I checked copyright.gov for the title Pioneers of Negro Origin in California and there were no listings.  I checked Sue Bailey Thurman and found that her only registrations and renewals were of her husband's work--listing them here--she did not renew this book. WorldCat link proves the book was published in 1952. We hope (talk) 17:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	RE0000459734 / 1989-12-29
	Renewal registration for: A00000507536 / 1961-05-24
Title: 	Mysticism and the experience of love. By Howard Thurman.
Copyright Claimant: 	Mrs. Howard Thurman (Sue Bailey Thurman) (W)

Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	RE0000095829 / 1981-07-02
	Renewal registration for: A00000115590 / 1953-11-25
Title: 	Meditations of the heart. By Howard Thurman.
Copyright Claimant: 	Mrs. Howard Thurman (Sue Bailey Thurman) (W)

Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	RE0000210136 / 1984-05-11
	Renewal registration for: A00000259950 / 1956-11-14
Title: 	The Growing edge. By Howard Thurman.
Copyright Claimant: 	Sue Bailey Thurman (W)

Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	TX0001531273 / 1985-02-11
Title: 	For the inward journey : the writings of Howard Thurman / selected by Anne Spencer Thurman ; introd. by Vincent Harding.
Edition: 	1st ed.
Imprint: 	San Diego : Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, c1984.
Description: 	302 p.
Copyright Claimant: 	Sue Bailey Thurman
Date of Creation: 	1983
Date of Publication: 	1984-04-30
Authorship on Application: 	editorial selection and compilation: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., employer for hire of Anne Spencer Thurman.
Basis of Claim: 	New Matter: "editorial selection and compilation."

Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	RE0000147921 / 1982-12-13
	Renewal registration for: A00000161301 / 1954-11-17
Title: 	The Creative encounter; an interpretation of religion and the social witness. By Howard Thurman.
Copyright Claimant: 	Sue Bailey Thurman (W)
Variant title: 	The Creative encounter

This proves she did not do anything with her own works re: renewal or any later registrations. We hope (talk) 16:50, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
) The Historical Cookbook of the American Negro [6]
OK-this copyright was not renewed.  I went to copyright.gov and searched for The Historical Cookbook of the American Negro-found nothing for the title.  The publisher was The National Council of Negro Women.  They copyrighted some later items but did not renew this cookbook.  Am going to paste what their later copyrights were right here because copyright.gov will be down for maintenance from tomorrow night until Monday morning.  (Pasting this on the file page(s) for any uploads from this would be good proof there is no longer a copyright on the book.
Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	TX0003249439 / 1992-02-18
Title: 	The Black family reunion cookbook : Recipes & Food Memories from the National Council of Negro Women, Inc.
Copyright Claimant: 	the Wimmer Companies, Inc.
Date of Creation: 	1991
Date of Publication: 	1991-10-15 

Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	TX0000378785 / 1979-07-31
Application Title: 	Thinking and doing, a guide to career education.
Title: 	Curriculum for A Career education and development demonstration project for youth / edited by Clement B. G. London.
Imprint: 	New York : The Council, [19--]
Description: 	195 p.
Copyright Claimant: 	National Council of Negro Women, Inc.
Date of Creation: 	1979
Date of Publication: 	1979-04-09
Authorship on Application: 	National Council of Negro Women, Inc., employer for hire.

Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	TX0004775692 / 1998-05-20
Title: 	Mother Africa’s table : a collection of West African and African American recipes and cultural traditions / compiled by Cassandra Hughes Webster.
Imprint: 	New York : Main Street Books, c1998.
Description: 	210 p.
Copyright Claimant: 	National Council of Negro Women, Inc. (employer for hire)
Date of Creation: 	1997
Date of Publication: 	1998-05-01

Type of Work: 	Text
Registration Number / Date: 	TX0007205118 / 2010-02-26
Application Title: 	South Carolina Legacies 1980 - 2010 Leadership Vision Service.
Title: 	South Carolina Legacies 1980 - 2010 Leadership Vision Service.
Description: 	Electronic file (eService)
Copyright Claimant: 	National Council of Negro Women, Inc., Columbia Section. Address: P.O. Box 8112, Columbia, SC, 29202-8112, United States.
Date of Creation: 	2010
Date of Publication: 	2010-02-04
Nation of First Publication: 	United States
Authorship on Application: 	National Council of Negro Women, Inc., Columbia Section, employer for hire; Domicile: United States; Citizenship: United States. Authorship: text, photograph(s), compilation, editing.
Rights and Permissions: 	National Council of Negro Women, Inc., Columbia Section, P.O. Box 8112, Columbia, SC, 29202-8112, United States

I would suggest archiving the eBay auction listing at Wayback Machine and also archiving the images you use-this gives us a permanent record of all of it.  If you want some help with this, let me know. We hope (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
We hope I saved them both in Wayback on the day I found them. Working in Latin America, I learned links disappear. Here's the cookbook archive [7] and here is the California one [8]. So from the list, only the cookbook is usable? Or are you still working on the California one? I supposed I just snip the image, load it in commons and in a comment box copy all of the information you gave? SusunW (talk) 16:39, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Let me first of all get the California information posted to this page because that was also not renewed.We hope (talk) 16:43, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
We hope I will load the cookbook first so you can see if I did it right. And yay! At least that will give me two more pictures. Thank you so much for your help. SusunW (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
We hope Cookbook is now loaded. If you think I did it correctly, will load the other book. Again, thanks for your help. I used the license {{PD-Pre1964}}. SusunW (talk) 17:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
You did great! :-D  The only thing you need to remember in future is to separately archive the images from eBay you intend to use because they sometimes aren't archived properly if you don't.  I archived the cover and front page for you and added the links to the Commons file. We hope (talk) 17:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

We hope Yay! both images now loaded. Cool and thanks on the archiving, good to know. I didn't realize I would need the fly as well, but when I snipped the front cover, I realized her name was not there. I am actually amazed that I figured out how to merge the two images. Usually I am not technically inclined. Very appreciative of your help. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I just archived the California book cover and added the link to the Commons file.  The more work you do with things like this, the easier it becomes. ;-) We hope (talk) 18:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Right now, I'm having problems uploading photos.  This started yesterday and continues whether I use Firefox or Chrome.  Not sure what the problem is. We hope (talk) 20:42, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Dr. Blofeld I think I have done all I can to her. Is it "not done" to nominate her for GA and then fix the photos? Or do I need to wait until We hope can look at these and tell me if any are usable before it is even nominated? SusunW (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Before I can look into these, I need to finish changing the refs at Bentworth.  Hope to be done by tonight. We hope (talk) 20:12, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
We hope Thanks for an update. Not trying to rush you. I was actually hoping Dr. B would say go ahead and nominate it, but I don't have a clue whether that is acceptable or not. I'm actually of the opinion that most of the pieces I work on do not have available PD photographs for Wiki, as the last one I did, after finding about 40 photos I couldn't get anyone to help me with or tell me if they were usable from commons or wikipedia. I finally just decided to put all the photos as fair use on the biographies of the individual women rather than on the conference photo, as I would've liked. ;) SusunW (talk) 20:33, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
You did the smart thing--the licenses can be changed if it works out that they are in the public domain.  It's just that we thought the Bentworth refs were in good shape after our previous work.  It seems the only way to start fixing things there is to change them to harv ref style. We hope (talk) 20:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Haha We hope, I was just going to say that this needs to be converted to harv ref before GAN as there's also books among the citations too! I'll look at it tomorrow.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:37, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sue Bailey Thurman/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 14:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll have this to you tomorrow at the latest JAGUAR  14:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Cheers Jaguar. I must say I looked in google books on her to try to find something else and like SusunW's previous article found very little. Again she and others who contributed have done an impeccable research job and made this really comprehensive I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


### Initial comments
"Thurman played an active role in establishing international student organizations to help prevent foreign students feeling isolated while studying abroad, organized one of the first international scholarship programs for African-American women" - this sentence reads choppy. Are these two things connected? Is a missing "and" needed here?
Organizing was meant, I've split the sentence though.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:54, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

"After her death in 1996, she donated the couple's vast archives to numerous universities" - doesn't sound right, it makes it sound like she is donating a different couple's archives!
Left?♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:00, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
See comments below on last point. SusunW (talk) 17:14, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
"discussing race relations and evaluating the parallels between the situation with Indians and the British on the one hand and African Americans and white Americans on the other" - 'hands' sounds a bit informal, would sound better as discussing race relations whilst simultaneously evaluating the parallels between the situation with Indians and the British and between African Americans and white Americans
Tweaked.
" During their meeting with Rabindranath Tagore in Santiniketan she spoke about "The History of Negro Music"," - why is this capitalised? Is it a title of a work?
Decapitalised, but if it is actually a work Susan can readd it!
It was the title of her paper. changed it to read she presented a paper "The History of Negro Music" SusunW (talk) 17:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
"Banfield was a goddaughter of Thurman, the mother of Sondra Elise Banfield Dailey, Gilbert Leslie Banfield, Jr., Karen Evans, Adrienne Banfield-Jones and grandmother of Jada Pinkett Smith" - are most of these names notable to include?
Perhaps not but it's OK I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:00, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
"The official African-American delegation included W.E.B" - what is WEB? Unless I missed something before, I didn't see this in the article?
Susun? W.E.B. Dubois is a person, a very famous person who founded the NAACP and is cited in the article several times and linked to his page.SusunW (talk) 17:04, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
"Among the papers of MLK" - similar thing here, I'm not sure what MLK stands for
Susun? MLK is Martin Luther King. I have no idea how to address that. The acronym is extremely common and used more often that even his name, even the holiday is referred to as MLK. I guess we could just spell out his name again, but seems redundant. SusunW (talk) 17:04, 29 August 2015 (UTC) (Just to make sure I typed MLK in both Google and Wikipedia and both return Martin Luther King). SusunW (talk) 17:17, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Nothing about Thurman's donation of her archives in the Legacy section
Well it says "Sue and Howard Thurman's largest collection of documents is housed at Boston University". Perhaps Susun could add a sentence about donating the resources first though.
Done. I changed it to read After her death in 1996, she and Howard's vast archives were donated SusunW (talk) 17:14, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Is that right? It says that the materials were burned to several universities Tenorcnj (talk) 20:12, 14 September 2015 (UTC)


#### References
No dead links


### On hold
This is an excellent article, well done on all the work put into this! Once all of the above are clarified then this should be good to go. I've had time to check the sources and they all appear OK and well used within the context.  JAGUAR  16:10, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Cheers Jaguar, I'll let SusunW respond while I fix the sfn stuff on the other article!♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
All done Jaguar I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:18, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing them! This one should be good to go, well done  JAGUAR  17:31, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
You are very fast. Thank you so much Jaguar SusunW (talk) 17:48, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 
Hello, anybody hanging around being able to confirm this is Sue Bailey Thurman?  Thank you so much for your time. Lotje (talk) 08:54, 11 April 2023 (UTC)