# Talk:Ron "Pigpen" McKernan

@Lennart97: Hello.  It seems that you recently renamed this article, from Ron "Pigpen" McKernan to Ron McKernan.  I think the old name was better, because Mr. McKernan was generally known as, and referred to, as Pigpen.  In fact I think there are a lot of people who don't know that Pigpen's real name was Ron McKernan.  So, I would like to suggest that the article be re-renamed, back the way it was.  Either permanently, or at least for a few weeks to have a discussion here and see what other editors think about all this.  — Mudwater (Talk) 22:36, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Mudwater. I performed this move on behalf of 162 etc. who requested the move at WP:RM/TR. As it is an undiscussed move, I can revert it if you want. I would like to note however that per WP:NICKNAME, we don't normally use the Firstname "Nickname" Lastname style, so most likely the name of this article should be either Ron McKernan or Pigpen (musician), whichever is the WP:COMMONNAME. Lennart97 (talk) 10:03, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
@Lennart97: Thanks for the reply.  Yes, I would request that you revert the renaming of the article.  After that, I think it should be discussed on this talk page.  I know what you mean about Firstname Nickname Lastname generally not being used, but in this particular case I think it's actually the best article name.  But I'm open to further discussion, and I'd like to see what other editors think.  — Mudwater (Talk) 13:00, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Done :) Lennart97 (talk) 13:04, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. — Mudwater (Talk) 13:46, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
So, everybody -- what's the best name for this article?  As Lennart97 has said, Wikipedia articles mostly don't use a naming pattern of Firstname "Nickname" Lastname, and the common name guideline might support an article name of either Ron McKernan or Pigpen (musician).  But, as I said above, I think in this case it's better to keep the current and longstanding article name of Ron "Pigpen" McKernan.  Since many people don't know that Pigpen's real name was Ron McKernan, this gives us the best of both worlds, so to speak.  — Mudwater (Talk) 14:05, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

No objection to either Ron McKernan, Pigpen McKernan, or Pigpen (musician).  The current Ron "Pigpen" McKernan goes against policy, so it can't stay here. 162 etc. (talk) 16:00, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
@162 etc.: Hello.  Can you please provide a link to the policy that the current article title goes against? — Mudwater (Talk) 16:19, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
See WP:NICKNAME: "avoid (...) a nickname, or a contracted version of the original given name(s), in quotes or parentheses between first and last name." 162 etc. (talk) 16:22, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
@162 etc.: Thanks.  That's the link we want.  But, that's a guideline, not a policy.  (Like it says at WP:PG, "Policies have wide acceptance among editors and describe standards all users should normally follow.... Guidelines are sets of best practices supported by consensus. Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.")  Looking in more detail at this particular guideline, it does generally recommend against article titles in the format of Ron "Pigpen" McKernan, as you have pointed out, and goes on to say "avoid such a stylization unless it is found in the name in the overwhelming majority of independent reliable sources; e.g. "Weird Al" Yankovic".  I believe that it would be pretty common to see Pigpen's name as Ron "Pigpen" McKernan, but probably not in an overwhelming majority of independent reliable sources.  That said, I still think this article would be a good time to have one of those occasional exceptions mentioned in the guideline.  "P.S." If a lot of editors who post in this discussion don't agree with me, then I think it would be a choice between Ron McKernan and Pigpen (musician).  Pigpen McKernan is definitely not the common name for this person. — Mudwater (Talk) 16:58, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Ron Pig pen Mckernan did not stop touring in june 1972 as the article says because I saw him performing with the Grateful Dead at the Fabulous Fox Theater in St Louis Missouri October 17,18 and 19th 1972 ~2025-32299-62 (talk) 04:20, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
Please cite reliable sources. 162 etc. (talk) 18:12, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
It seems that Pigpen's last show was on June 17, 1972, at the Hollywood Bowl.  That's what it says in the DeadBase book.  Here are several online references:  Live for Live Music, American Songwriter, Far Out Magazine. — Mudwater (Talk) 19:21, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
As Mudwater says, all authoritative sources, which for the Grateful Dead were pretty good even by 1972, state the Europe 72 tour was the last major outing for Pigpen, followed by the single June 1972 gig (with no singing), and then retirement. I think the band wanted him to come back on stage, but his health just didn't allow it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:54, 10 November 2025 (UTC)