# Talk:Q14 and Q38 buses

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Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160304025857/http://web.mta.info/busco/schedules/q038cur.pdf to http://web.mta.info/busco/schedules/q038cur.pdf
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This review is transcluded from Talk:Q38 (New York City bus)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Username6892 (talk · contribs) 21:11, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
My review of this article is mostly done. Expect some comments soon. Username6892 21:11, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 
See bottom
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism): 
See bottom
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 

It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 

In the lead "It operates 7 days a week except late nights". Midnight seems pretty late night to me, based on the schedule (ref 9). If you meant that it does not run overnights, please clarify. (1a)
The MTA classifies "late night" as overnight. This page just goes by the MTA's classifications of late-night service, but to my knowledge, this has never been brought up before as an issue, so I will fix it. (Disclosure, I am not the nominator, but have fixed some of the issues in this page.) epicgenius (talk) 22:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
The lead doesn't mention the history. (1b)
 Added
Would refs 11 and 14 be needed on the Route section (they show the same thing (the route))? Ref 15 may not be needed either.
I think this should be fine. It doesn't quite violate WP:CITEKILL yet. epicgenius (talk) 22:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
In the history section, I don't think you need 6 refs to prove the 1934 changes.
 Fixed This is WP:CITEKILL, though. epicgenius (talk) 22:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
There are sections with 3-5 refs in the 3rd and 2nd last paragraphs. Are all of them needed? (1a)
 Fixed
"The corona end of the route was later extended" When? (1a)
 Added
Is ref 35 needed when refs 33 and 34 already cover it? (1a)
 Removed
There wasn't anything in ref 13 to suggest that the buses were the specific new flyer model mentioned. (2c)
 Removed
I can't verify the fultonhistory.com refs, they give server errors every time I try to open them. Dead link?
Yes, this is a recurring problem. epicgenius (talk) 22:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
"by the 1950s, the route was renamed the Q50". Failed verification, given the ref is the 1946 map (2c)
 Fixed
"remained at LaGuardia depot until January 2010", source doesn't say January (2c)
 Removed
The last ~4 lines are uncited (2c)
 Removed Plus, this is trivia.
Given that this is my first review, I will request a 2nd opinion to make sure I didn't make any errors. Username6892 21:27, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, Username6892. I think this is a pretty thorough review, though I might be involved now that I fixed many of the issues. epicgenius (talk) 22:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
After an additional fix I made myself, I will now pass this article, though the fulton history issue shold be dealt with before taking this further. Username6892 23:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Epicgenius: Could you help do a round-robin move to move this to Q38 bus? Thanks. (I will try to fix some double redirects from the various moves tomorrow). Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 02:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Kew Gardens 613, sure. I've moved the page. (However, if anyone objects to the move, we might need to move this back.) Epicgenius (talk) 03:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
This followed the previous Bx12 bus move. Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 03:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
@Kew Gardens 613 and Epicgenius: I have reverted the above move and other similar recent ones, I think this is controversial and needs discussion. I'm not keen on the "Q38 bus" name as it gives no indication of which location this is to be found in. The term also sounds like a type of bus rather than a route, so doesn't do well on the recognition part of the title. Many of the affected bus route numbers are also in use in other cities around the world, so are ambiguous. For example, London Buses route B15 shares its name with B15 (New York City bus). If you still wish to move the pages I suggest a WP:RM is held and a consistent format established, preferably making clear that these are bus routes in NYC (the London example does this quite well for example).  — Amakuru (talk) 11:07, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
@Amakuru, my bad, I hadn't even considered that the title would be ambiguous. Thanks for reverting the move. I agree that a mass RM should be opened in this case, since places like Washington DC and London have had bus routes with the same name. Epicgenius (talk) 12:34, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
@Amakuru and Epicgenius: Sorry about doing this without a new larger discussion-there was a previous discussion on Talk:Bx12 bus#Requested move 19 April 2020 about this, so I thought this was more or less settled, which was stupid since it was on a low-trafficked page. We have been doing titles for multiple routes combined like this, such as Bx1 and Bx2 buses. You could do titles like Q38 bus route. I was not thinking of some of the route numbers in other cities (though I should have thought of Washington). No one refers to the B15 as MTA bus route B15 or New York City bus route B15-you could do B15 bus route (New York City) if it really was ambiguous, and since, based on your logic, the existing title could also refer to a type of bus. In any case, we should try to sort out bus titles-either my moves are fine (in whole or partially) or your reversions should be kept and the articles with multiple routes should be moved to different titles. Thanks for reverting the moves, and sorry once again. Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 13:17, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
@Kew Gardens 613: there's no need to apologize... you made a WP:BOLD move, which could have been fine if nobody had disagreed with it... but then it was subsequently contested and reverted, this is a normal part of the WP:RM cycle and no fault on your part. As noted above, my preference is to retain some indicator that it's a NYC bus, either via the present disambiguators or through a natural descriptive name like the London Buses one. Note that there are lots of cases across Wikipedia where we retain a disambiguator even for cases where it's not strictly necessary, just to achieve a uniform format and avoid confusion. For example Kenilworth and Southam (UK Parliament constituency) has a disambiguator even though there's no other Kenilworth and Southam topic on the project. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 13:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
@Kew Gardens 613, it's all right. As Amakuru said above, you moved the pages boldly, and since it's been contested, the next step is to open an RM discussion to determine consensus.To be honest, I don't think we need "route" in the title; though adding "route" might help clarify that the B15 isn't something like a bus model, it would also make the title longer. A title like "B15 bus (New York City)" or "B15 (New York City bus route)" would be clear enough, in my opinion. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:04, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
@Epicgenius: I think we should decide on what we will go with. @Wikis6501: had moved pages like Q111, Q113, and Q114 buses to Guy R. Brewer Boulevard buses. Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 19:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
I moved the page about the Brewer Boulevard routes so it can be consistent with other bus pages. Right now, Guy R. Brewer Boulevard has three different bus routes (four soon: Q115). And so does Hillside Avenue, which is already titled “Hillside Avenue buses”. So I thought that a page with three or more bus routes should be addressed by the corridor. “Merrick Boulevard buses” is good because while the main focus is the Q5 and Q85, it also talks about the Q84 and X63. And then we have the four buses serving Fifth and Madison Avenues in Manhattan, which I also retitled to match the four buses on Third and Lexington Avenues. Now the Bx7, Bx20, and M100 bus page should keep its title, and here’s why. The corridor that all three routes share is Broadway, and there’s a lot of bus routes running on it. Capeesh? Wikis6501 (talk) 20:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
My feeling is that the Guy R. Brewer Boulevard buses article should remain at that title. Barring any major changes, the Q115 is going to be implemented, which means that page would've needed to have been moved anyway. I agree with the other titles (e.g. Hillside Avenue, Merrick Boulevard), which talk about multiple bus routes as well; in these cases, the pages Q1 (New York City bus), Q5 (New York City bus), etc. already redirect to the appropriate article.The Bx7, Bx20, and M100 buses page technically could be renamed to Broadway buses (Upper Manhattan and the Bronx), but that would be unwieldy and not altogether intuitive.Not related, but I've always spelled the Italian word as "capisce", not "capeesh", though I see Wiktionary lists both spellings. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I tried to move that page to Bx12 (New York City bus) but it was unsuccessful. Otherwise, all pages were able to be titled ____ (New York City bus). But are you sure it’s better to shorten all the bus titles? I just created eight Brooklyn bus pages from the B2 to the B12 and now I’m up to the B13. Wikis6501 (talk) 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

The Q38 is currently a loop route, and used to operate only on Penelope Avenue. But in a handful of days, it will go back to its origin, with the Q14 running on Eliot Avenue. Should this page remain as Q38, or should it also include the Q14 due to the former’s history as a loop route? Wikis6501 (talk) 21:50, 17 June 2025 (UTC)