# Talk:SMS Königsberg (1915)

The photo is not in the public domain so far as we know. First of all, we have no source. Second, we have no publication date (which means we cannot prove it's in the public domain in the US - which is a requirement to use on en.wiki and hosting on Commons). Third, we have no author (though it's likely Marius Bar), which means we cannot prove it's PD in France (the country of origin, also a requirement to hosting on Commons). Please stop adding it to the article. Additionally, us not knowing who took the picture in 2018 is not the same thing as it having been published anonymously, which is what the law requires. Parsecboy (talk) 13:24, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

It is by Marius Day, taken in 1928. See: mariusbarnumerique.fr What now?- Broichmore (talk) 14:48, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Bar died in 1930, so the photo is PD in France, but we still need to establish whether it's PD in the US to use it on en.wiki and to keep it on Commons. For that, we need the original publication date. Parsecboy (talk) 15:31, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Search indicates that it has not been published in the U.S. but you know that already! Broichmore (talk) 19:49, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
It doesn't need to have been published in the US, we just need a publication somewhere (given the subject, France is the most likely candidate), ideally as close to possible to 1928. The trouble is, it's very difficult to find the original publication of a given image. It's why I generally stick to images with from a pre-1923 source, since those are cut-and-dry PD in the US at very least. Parsecboy (talk) 20:04, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
It's the only image I can find for the Königsberg / Metz. We can prove that. It's the case, after "considerable" search... So therefore an American can upload this Metz image to Wikipedia under "fair use"? - Broichmore (talk) 20:45, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Fair use won't work. There are other photos of the ship, like this one (which may be PD - we'd need to be able to identify the Commander Curzon credited there - it would be ideal if we could, since there are a number of pictures he took) and this one (again, we'd need to find out who Theodore Geiser is and when he died). This one is definitively PD, since it's credited to an official RN photographer. Parsecboy (talk) 12:57, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Actually, that last one must have been one of the other three ships of the class, as Königsberg remained in Germany at the surrender of the fleet. Parsecboy (talk) 13:04, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
I suspect that Curzon is a fund the IWM taps on. I have written to them, for info. The last most likely "Curzon" candidate died in 1925. Geiser too seems to be a state secret, I have written about that too. We have used PD-Scan|1=PD-UKGov|category=  in the past. You don't like that?
Hopefully they can clarify the status of the images. The trouble with using the UKGove template is we don't know for certain that Curzon was acting in an official capacity in taking those pictures. It does work for File:Königsberg-class cruiser en route to Scapa Flow.jpg, since that one is explicitly credited as having been taken by an official RN photographer. It's probable that the Curzon photos were too, but we can't assume. As for Geiser, I don't believe the German copyright laws make any exception for government works, apart from official decrees and the like. Parsecboy (talk) 20:30, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
IWM say that Curzon is Francis Curzon, 5th Earl Howe and that the collection comprises Photographic negatives of photographs officially taken by Commander Curzon of the Grand Fleet and its movements (a number now in the Q series as Q 23185 - Q 23220), also photographs of ships of the German Navy and the British Fleet at Scapa Flow (including Q 23278 - Q 23356 & Q 58504). - Broichmore (talk) 15:51, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Huh, that's confusing - according to his wiki bio, he served in the RNVR ashore, not with the Grand Fleet during the war. But if they're telling us that the photos were "officially" taken, then that would make them PD-UKGov, I'd assume. Parsecboy (talk) 16:06, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
I uploaded a photo of him on his biog that states he is serving on HMS Howe, being visited by his Dad. So right there, is a mistake. Ancestry is free this weekend so the Navy Lists can be viewed. He's only RNVR, but still a VIP. - Broichmore (talk) 16:57, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
No, that's of him during WWII - he's visiting his son (the 6th Earl Howe) there. His father died in 1929. Parsecboy (talk) 17:24, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Right, They look identical at the same age. I'm past my bedtime, obviously.  Broichmore (talk) 17:47, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
This photo is at ancestry; see:  Francis Curzon 5th Earl Howe filming the surrender of the German fleet (1919) It's a Getty image, unbelievable, it's clearly taken by Naval personnel - Broichmore (talk) 18:35, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Another photo; not as good as the other one, where you see him in in profile, and in close up. Broichmore (talk) 19:27, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 
I'd think his photos are fine to upload then. His wiki bio is obviously incomplete ;) Parsecboy (talk) 20:53, 9 July 2018 (UTC)