# Talk:Society and culture of the Han dynasty

I just created this article.--Pericles of AthensTalk 07:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the invitation to read your another featured article first hand, all I can say is WOW.
I can see the coming of age of a great Sinologist, no doubt of it.
There is this minor thing I like to point out, is regarding the section:Confucianism becomes paramount. According to an article I read, Emperor Wu of Han was the real person that started the Confucianism-King-Emperor-combination(whatever it means) by murdering one of the  Liu Prince(I do not have his name off hand, the prince who wrote 准南子). That prince Liu had a lot of free thinking scholars with him, roughly about 2000-3000 scholars, all were killed in one go. This event marked the absolute reign of Confuciunism-Emperor ideology that lasted for 3000 years, the 君臣父子 relationship. It is still valid, and being utilized today, as in the case of Sino-Vietnamese War, the so called teach-you-a-lesson-war Arilang   talk 23:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah! You're talking about Liu An, or Líu Ān 劉安. As for his scholars, I believe Wiki has a page for them at Eight Immortals of Huainan, but those are the most prominent ones and does not account for the thousands of scholars amassed by him. I've read plenty about Liu An and why Emperor Wu had him killed, but I've never read this particular phrase before (i.e. 君臣父子), until you presented it. I would like to know more myself! Are we simply talking about something similar to the Western concept of absolutism?--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Another issue I like to know(or to read) more on wiki is the Chinese slaves. Of all the China related articles , this topic has hardly being touched on. For example, (1) what is the percentage of Chinese slaves compared to Chinese freeman (2) Western society has Ten Commandments, do Han/Tang culture has anything equivalent? Arilang   talk 00:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I quoted two authors in this article who say that slaves 奴隸 only made up roughly one percent of Han Dynasty China's population. Unlike the Roman Empire, the Han Chinese did not utilize masses of slaves for agricultural work. The Han government discouraged the buying of too many slaves by making the slaves' owners pay 240 coins 錢 as a poll tax for each slave. Therefore, tenants 房客(the correct term is:佃農) were preferred since they worked on rented land and the landlord did not have to pay for the tenants' poll taxes. As for the Ten Commandments, I don't think China has anything comparable (except for the golden rule as stated by Kongzi 孔子 in the Analects: "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.") Then again, if we are striclty talking about contemporaries to the Han Dynasty Chinese, the Romans in the West did not have anything like the Ten Commandments, which they would have considered a Jewish thing until the adoption of Christianity in the Roman Empire during the 4th century (which the Roman ruler Constantine I or 君士坦丁一世大帝 was responsible for).--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes you are right, it is 劉安. Huainanzi, according the essay I read, was much more than a musical book, it was a vast collection  of free thinking ideas, and kind of free thought 自由思想 . By killing Liu An and his scholars, and destroyed all their essays and books, Han Wu had begun the dark side of Confucianism reign on Han Chinese culture, namely the 君臣父子 relationship(another wiki article yet to be developed). The worst, and the darkest side, of this relationship is:君欲臣死,臣不得不死, 父要子亡, 子不得不亡. Translation: Official had to die whenever Emperor wanted him to die, son had to die whenever father wanted him to die. This To die idea was advocated to the max by Qing rulers in order to control Han Chinese population.
Lucky the western culture did not have this kind of suffocating thought on it's populace. I am not saying Confucianism is bad bad bad, but it's suffocating grip on free thinking througout these thousands of years history is truly remarkable. Arilang   talk 07:20, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

That is truly very awful and a grotesque way to think about people's lives, but before we elevate Western Christianity to a more enlightened status, look at what the Church did to people like Giordano Bruno (1548 – 1600 CE), the Italian philosopher and astronomer who was burned at the stake as a heretic. The the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834), the Portuguese Inquisition (1536-1821) and the Roman Inquisition (1542- ~1860) of the  Christian Church could be just as violent and irrational as 君臣父子 from Emperor Wu's reign onwards.--Pericles of AthensTalk 09:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, western culture has gone through Dark ages and Middle ages, but at least western culture believe in there is only one life for each life, unlike oriental belief of Reincarnation, which really means lifes after life, or something like that. Because western culture's belief of one life, the natural conclusion is then each life is unique, is to be respected, and is precious. This is the fundamental, and the beginning of Human rights concept. Whereas throughout Han Chinese Confucius-based-concept,民 is always dispensable, disposable, due to this 3000 years old of Confucianism 君臣父子 tradition. I do not know any western scholars' viewpoints on this issue, but many Han Chinese scholars  do have this kind of ideas, that is,人民 is 草民, 賤民, or 蟻民 . And 君王 is 天子, in Japan it becomes 天皇, is not human anymore. I think this is one of the basic differences between East and West. Arilang   talk 10:47, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Now this is a profound concept. So you would argue that cultures (or even individuals) who believe in reincarnation naturally are indifferent towards human life? Hindus believe in reincarnation, yet I would argue that the Hindus (despite their historically foul caste system) did value human life and in fact valued animal life to a large degree. If not believing in reincarnation was the foundation for the evolution of human rights, then wouldn't the Islamic world have also built up a philosophy of human rights like the West? Also, if I am not mistaken, wasn't reincarnation only introduced to China with the advent of Buddhism? From all accounts that I've read about Han Dynasty religion, people generally believed (although with regional nuances that changed over time) that a person has two souls, one which immediately traveled to the afterlife of the immortals when a person died, and the other which stayed behind on earth in a burial tomb. There's no room for multiple trials of lives in this scenario, so Emperor Wu's actions could not have been influenced by reincarnation. Right? If this is what Emperor Wu believed the afterlife would be like, would he not treat a human life as being singular and precious? Give me your thoughts, because it has something to do with this article and perhaps a future article. Also, I might even start consulting sources on Han religious beliefs and 君臣父子.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

There is mention of a pestling shop, which links to mortar and pestle, but the term "pestling shop" is not defined on either page. --BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 22:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

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