# Talk:Perverts (album)

Upon its announcement, all publications described Perverts as her second studio album, including Rolling Stone, NME, and Stereogum. Today, after the release of "Punish", Exclaim! stated that Cain clarified it is not an album, and sources are calling it either an album (The Line of Best Fit) or a "project" (Clash and Dork). What classification should be used in the article for now with the information we have? CatchMe (talk) 14:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it should be considered an album. It is nine songs and NINETY minutes, longer than Cain's debut album. Pxlpixx (talk) 14:16, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree, and given that the majority of the sources classify it as an album, I think we should follow that for now. Plus, today Cain said "album artwork". CatchMe (talk) 22:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
i agree. i also don't see any source of the artist herself referring to it as an ep. Sammyrayy (talk) 17:04, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Then you obviously ignored my edit description which specifically gave proof of her referring to it as an EP, so I'll paste it here instead.
"She has referred to Perverts as an EP multiple times. Notably in her Instagram and Tumblr comments under the linked posts (I linked screenshots of these replies below). It's clear why some sources would see a 90-minute project and immediately refer to it as an album, but it's important to listen to what the artist has to say. There have been EPs in the past with long runtimes, e.g. "How To Leave Town" by Car Seat Headrest. I would appreciate it if you would allow me to edit the page, or if you could do it yourself, thanks!
Instagram and Tumblr replies:
[1]https://ibb.co/MR47yMr
[2]https://ibb.co/vZnLGzM"
Furthermore, here is a Reddit link to photos of her interview with HommeGirls, where she again calls it an EP. Case closed, I'm reverting it now, thanks. Scvlla (talk) 20:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
WP:PRIMARYSOURCES are not reliable sources and that WP:REDDIT link is doing an WP:ELNO violation. (CC) Tbhotch™ 01:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:NALBUM and WP:UNRELEASED. This article is premature. Moving to draftspace, where it can be incubated (and after the recording's release, we'll also know definitively whether it's an album or an EP, and needn't edit war over it). Regards, BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This clearly meets these criterias and WP:FUTUREALBUM, with several reliable sources. I added it to RM/TR. Regarding the EP or album dispute, almost every source calls it an album, even Cain in a recent post on social media revealing its cover. So it should be placed at "(album)". CatchMe (talk) 14:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
It does not "clearly" meet those criteria. It might meet #1 of WP:NALBUM - when actually released. Of the 18 references currently in the article, the first five aren't about the unreleased album at all. Reference six is a fairly in-depth interview that mentions the new album in passing. Reference seven, not about the album. Reference eight is WP:SIGCOV, reference nine, definitely not. Etc. Reminder, WP:SIGCOV for WP:NALBUM actually says "This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries except for the following: Any reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician or ensemble talks about the recording, and all advertising that mentions the recording, including manufacturers' advertising." What is here is almost exclusively not "significant, independent coverage from reliable sources." BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
The first references do not directly mention the album because they are about its background information, precedents, and how she teased the album, which is the standard for album articles, as you can see even in GAs or FAs. There is no statement that an album article should be created after its release. The sources used in the article (which obviously are not the only ones), share the information we have now, which I think is enough to warrant its article. With the following days, more data will appear on sources, like it happened with the release of the lead single. CatchMe (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
The first references, obviously, then, do not satisfy WP:SIGCOV for this album, as they don't mention it. "There is no statement that an album article should be created after its release." There are points two to seven of WP:NALBUM, all of which require the album to have been released and to have charted, or won an award, etc. The first references, obviously, then, do BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
It says that it should meet "at least one of these criteria", and it does. This is also an album by a high-profile artist; their "upcoming works may be notable months in advance, and the date at which an article for that album becomes viable is not directly related to its eventual release date". CatchMe (talk) 16:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, how is Cain a "high-profile artist"? She has released one album, and while it seems to have been received well by critics, I can't see that it charted at all. An album requires its own notability, and that notability is not inherited and requires independent evidence. That an album is an officially released recording by a notable musician or ensemble is not by itself reason for a standalone article. and The recording has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble who created it. - I have gone through several of the references already, and they clearly don't meet the non-trivial requirement. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
The artist gained a cult following online and significant coverage and acclaim, so I do not think charting is that important here, and that is not synonymous with notability, just one of its aspects. Also, I don't see how the references "clearly don't meet the non-trivial requirement" when the album is their main and only subject, and not just a insignificant mention. CatchMe (talk) 13:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Charting is what we have in the guidelines, though, not an ephemeral/unquantifiable and subjective "cult following". The references clearly don't meet the non-trivial requirement because they're basically a few sentences long, in total? And mostly a regurgitation of her Instagram posts. In other words, trivial, not significant. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:37, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
For future albums, the only possible criteria in WP:NALBUM is number 1, so charting is impossible here. "Ephemeral/unquantifiable and subjective" is, redundantly, subjective, and not based on the reliable sources that claim that or call the artist a "cult star" or else. This is a highly anticipated follow-up to a critically acclaimed album (again, based on several sources, not my opinion), which is why I say she is "high-profile". CatchMe (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Did her debut album actually chart? I coudn't find anything to confirm it did. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
No, and I never said it did. CatchMe (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

These are some reliable sources that classified Perverts upon its release:

Uproxx: "And then there's Perverts, a new release out today (January 8) classified as an EP even though it’s 15 minutes longer than Preacher's Daughter" and "It feels less like a proper album (or EP) than an act of public insouciance".
Vulture: "her new project, Perverts" and "Cain herself isn’t even calling the new project an album".
Paste: "Cain's new LP, Perverts", "And no matter what your conclusions about the album are", and "Perverts is an album that..."
Alternative Press: "she’s back with a 90-minute project"
Kerrang!: "the new project from Ethel Cain".
Dork: "Ethel Cain has dropped her new 90-minute project" and "The 90-minute collection".
DIY: "That 'Perverts' purposefully presents itself as a project rather than an album..."
Exclaim!: "in an era where most artists make albums a third of its length, the EP feels like a daunting endurance test".
Clash: "'Perverts' is not an easy album to listen to".
Stereogum: "It’s worth noting that none of the press materials for Perverts actually call it an album. My promo copy refers to it, variously, as a "project," a "body of work," and even an "EP," which would likely make it the longest EP of all time."
As seen, they don't agree in the classification, even the "press materials" from it. If no one objects, I will put a note after "studio recording" similar to the Guitar Songs or Infections of a Different Kind (Step 1) notes. It would read: "Press releases do not describe Perverts as a studio album, but rather a "project", "body of work", or extended play (EP). While streaming services and some reliable sources call it an album or LP record, preponderance of publications give it a neutral classification. This article uses "studio recording" and "recording" for consistency." CatchMe (talk · contribs) 20:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with your points here; since little sources here call it an album, should the page name be changed to "Perverts (recording)"? Locust member (talk) 22:37, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Not sure. "Recording" is not under WP:ALBUMDAB. CatchMe (talk · contribs) 23:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Leave as is. It's a music release that's nearly 90 minutes long. That's an album, albeit a long one. You can call your horse a chair if you want, because it's something with four legs that you can sit on, but everyone else is going to call it a horse. If it's some conceit of the artist to not call it an album, that's all fine and dandy, we don't have to pander to it, same as we still have articles title "Acme Corporation" even though the first sentence might say "(stylized in all-caps)" or "(stylized all lowercase)". BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
(Moving my separate topic into this discussion, hadn't seen this) Since Perverts isn't described as an album anywhere on the project and the efn in the lead makes a point of not describing it as such, it doesn't make much sense to me that the page is titled "Perverts (album)". I'm not making an actual move request though because I'm not sure what else the page could be titled. Perverts is described as an EP inconsistently, and "Perverts (Ethel Cain)" just seems odd to me. Taffer😊💬(she/they) 19:20, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
@LaffyTaffer: Fully agree with your points Locust member (talk) 20:14, 24 March 2025 (UTC)