# Talk:Sibyl of Falaise

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sibyl of Falaise/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Gog the Mild (talk · contribs) 15:04, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Which "King Henry"? And can we link him.
Link Anglo-Norman,
"likely that Sibyl was the daughter of Henry's elder brother Robert Curthose". Legitimate or illegitimate?
"Sibyl was just a "kinswoman" of Henry's". I don't think that the possessive is necessary, as =you already cover it with the use of "of".
The lead says she "was an Anglo-Norman noblewoman", the article mentions neither of these.
"Lead: "She was either his illegitimate daughter or a niece". The article discusses other options.
Gog the Mild (talk) 16:50, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I should have gotten all of those - I hate not being able to state the obvious - she was "Anglo-Norman" but I cannot find a single source that bothers to state that. And she was a noblewoman ... as someone who was titled "kinswoman" of a king, but again, this is so obvious that no one bothers to say it in print. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:52, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Just chiming in as a non-involved editor, neither "Anglo-Norman" nor "noblewoman" are the slightest bit controversial. She's (probably?) the daughter of one of William the Conqueror's sons - can't get much more Anglo-Norman than that. If we can't call her Anglo-Norman we should also stop saying "so-and-so is a French (insert occupation)" when the sources say "so-and-so was born in Paris to French parents in 1864". -- asilvering (talk) 02:07, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Like Asilvering I am entirely relaxed as to whether you cite this statement of the obvious or not, but it needs stating in either both the lead and the body or neither. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:11, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Most of this article referring her to be related to Henry I of England, niece, kinswoman cannot be substantiated.
Sibyl of Falaise.
Described only as a "neptis" (acc. "neptem") of Henry, Thompson is correct in stating that she does not belong the list [Thompson (2003), 150].
Henry I of England https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/henry001.htm The Henry Project, and accounted for by Thompson (2003)
Thompson (2003) = Kathleen Thompson, "Affairs of State: the illegitimate children of Henry I", Journal of Medieval History 29 (2003): 129-151. Pipera (talk) 03:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Falseley attributed daughters:
Gundred.
Gundred and her brother Reginald de Dunstanville are mentioned in a Pipe Roll of 1130 [see White 108, 119]. She was included by White on the assumptions that her brother was the same as the earl of Cornwall and that they were siblings by the same father. However, Thompson pointed out that the future earl was still described as a young man in the late 1130's [GND (Rob. Tor.) viii, 29 (v. 2, pp. 248-9)], and was therefore not the same man as the Reginald on the 1130 Pipe Roll. (Thompson's conjecture would place the Reginald and Gundred of 1130 as siblings of earl Reginald's mother.)
Sibyl of Falaise.
Described only as a "neptis" (acc. "neptem") of Henry, Thompson is correct in stating that she does not belong the list [Thompson (2003), 150].
Henry I of England https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/henry001.htm
In my opinion I would suggest that Thompson, and Baldwin are correct, and other references are an opinion and stated as so. Pipera (talk) 03:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

If you have any comments on this section of her entry, please raise this here.
As someone who has been doing her tree for over 8 years, I know who she married and who her children are. Pipera (talk) 15:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

This has been explained over and over, but personal opinions or personal research should not be used in wikipedia articles. We go by what reliable sources state and changing sourced text and replacing it with unsourced text that is then claimed to be correct based on personal research is Wikipedia:Disruptive editing and needs to stop. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
In the Proceedings by Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Publication date 1919, the will of Willelmus de Faleisia a witness to his will was his daughter Sibile. In his will he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva, there is no separation of his property to any children.
It records the following:
They signed of William de Falaise, Emma, Sibile, Geva the wife of William.
Archaeology,     genealogy (1919). "Proceedings     by Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History Society". Somersetshire     Archaeological and Natural History Society. allen_county; americana.     Retrieved 7 January 2025.
https://archive.org/details/proceedings65some/page/27/mode/1up?q=+Appendix Pipera (talk) 20:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Actually, that's not a will. That's a charter. See the previous page where the document is introduced with "The Provost of Eton has recently discovered the charter of William de Falaise, hitherto known only by a too brief abstract of a copy of it in the little Cartulary of Stoke Curci, and he has kindly supplied a literal transcript of it, which may be extended thus:" And the witnesses read: "+ S[ignum] Will[elmi] de Fales[ia], + Emma, + Sibile, Mili Crispini," + Geva uxorores Willelmi" (among others). The explanatory note after Sibile which says "Emma and Sibyl, daughters of the grantor" is from the author of the article, and the charter itself does not give an identity to Emma and Sibile. It does say that Geva is the wife of Willelmi, but the charter itself is not supporting that Emma and Sibyl are the daughters of William, just that two people named Emma and Sibyl were witnesses to the charter. This is why we leave the interpretation of primary sources to the historians, who are trained in it, because this is not a will and it doesn't name Emma and Sibyl as William's daughters. Ealdgyth (talk) 21:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Oh, and by the way? The actual author of this bit is Maxwell Lyte, the article is "Burci, Falaise and Martin", it's published in the journal Somersetshire Archaeological & Natural History Society Proceedings During the Year 1919 which was published by the Somersetshire Archaeological & Natural History Society, in volume 65 from 1919, on pages 1-27, and the charter is on pages 26 and 27. It is NOT authored by "Archaeology, genealogy" nor is the book called Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History Society nor is it published by "allen_county; americana" Ealdgyth (talk) 21:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Willelmus de Faleisia APPENDIX.
The Provost of Eton has recently discovered the charter of William de Falaise, hitherto known only by a too brief abstract of a copy of it in the little Cartulary of Stoke Curci, and he has kindly supplied a literal transcript of it, which may be extended thus : —
Ergo, William of Falesia, with my wife Geva, give the church of Saint Andrew of Suntinstoch, together with all the land belonging to the church of Saint Mary of Longile, and with one hydra of land, and with the whole tenth of the parish, and with all the tenths of all the things we possess there, also with the tenth of the gabul of our land. which water which is called Perret shuts off from the east, and the whole tithe of the same town, that is, of the mares and cattle, and two parts of the xme of Coquinton, and the whole tithe of one field of Combe, and the same parts of the xme of Wileton, and the same parts of the xme of Lulinstock, to Abbot Rannulf and the monks for the safety of King Henry and of our souls and our parents, our predecessors and successors.
We also give the whole tithe of Tientone and the church in Gal with the whole tithe of the parish called Treigru, granted to Robert the son of Martin.
We also granted pasture to their cattle in every place where they were ours, and the wood necessary for their use, together with the wood called Cantboc, and the chapel of our house, as long as we were in the village.
Now we grant all this freely, as we hold it quietly from the king. But if anyone diminishes this gift and turns it again on the ground from the church, let his name be blotted out without oblivion in every generation, and with the righteous he shall not be written for ever.
+ The sign of H[enric] Reg[is], + The sign of Henry] co[mitis] de Garg',10 + The sign of Heonis11 dappferi], + The sign of Rogfer] of Pic[taven] , + The sign of Count Symon,12 + The sign of Roger de Fer[arii], + The sign of Will[elm] de Fales[ia], + Emma, + Sibile, 13 Mili Crispin, " + Geva the wives of Wilhelm], + Will[elm]i son of Unfredi,15 + Robert Pin[er]narius, + Herbert Mil bis
References
126. Ibid. ; Calendar of Close Rolls, 1323-1327, pp. 483, 572, 595-602 ; Tnq. ad quod damnum, file 194, no. 8.
127. Calendar of Inquisitions, X, 390, 391.
1. Stoke, afterwards Stoke Curci or Stogursey.
2. Lonley.
3. The river Parret.
4. Cockington, co. Devon, miscalled ' Corniton ' in a papal bull of 1204.
5. Williton.
6. Lilstock.
7. Teignton, co. Devon.
8. Tresgru. Close Rolls, 1227-1231, p. 553. Treguz in Glamorgan, Placita de Quo Waranto, p. 172.
9. Quantock.
10. Henry, Earl of Warwick, died 1123.
11. Eudes, or, less probably, Hamon.
12. Simon, Earl of Northampton and Huntingdon, died before 1109.
13. Emma and Sibyl, daughters of the grantor.
14. Miles Crispin, died 1107.
15. William fitz Humphrey, who married Emma de Falaise
Proceedings
by Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History Society
Publication date 1919
Topics Archaeology, genealogy
Publisher Dorchester, Eng. [etc.]
Collection allen_county; americana
Contributor Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center
Language English
Volume 65
https://archive.org/details/proceedings65some/page/26/mode/2up?q=+Appendix Pipera (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Translated for your convience. Pipera (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
I came across this July 2024, before it was placed here. Pipera (talk) 23:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
We don't need this .. it's just extraneous verbiage. The actual account has "+ S[ignum] Will[elmi] de Fales[ia], + Emma, + Sibile,13 Mili Crispini," + Geva uxorores Willelmi" and the footnote for 13 is "the daughters of the grantor". the "daughters of the grantor" is not in the main text of the charter as the author transcribed it. And this article still says it's a will in one place, and still says that the charter names Sibyl as William's daughter, which it does not. That's Lyte's opinion, and it's just that - an opinion, and an older one at that. Ealdgyth (talk) 23:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
In your opinion. Pipera (talk) 02:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Being my 26th Great Grandmother, I am typing this response because without her I would not exist 😊 Pipera (talk) 02:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Page 236
Reginald fitzUrse, who emerged as the leader of the band, also could claim royal descent, and in 1170 was married with a daughter. His father, Richard, one of Henry i’s ‘new men’, lord of Bulwick in Northamptonshire, had married the daughter of Baldwin de Boullers and Sibyl de Falaise, des¬ cribed as niece, but perhaps a bastard, of Henry 1. Reginald also had an interest in Somerset and Montgomery. It seems that on the 29th in the cathedral Thomas charged him with ingratitude, for it was through him that he had obtained his position in the royal court.
Thomas Becket : Barlow, Frank : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive https://archive.org/details/thomasbecket00barl/page/236/mode/1up?q=Falaise
That is a personal statement about Sibyl de Falaise, no other reference is applied. Pipera (talk) 03:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

The Royal Bastards of Medieval England
By Chris Given-Wilson, Alice Curteis · 2023
They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d.
May have been not certain. 
It goes onto the niece meaning which is a personal opinion with no substantial proof of the statement. Pipera (talk) 03:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Once again, historians evaluating the sources and making judgements. Our sources are allowed to do that. Ealdgyth (talk) 03:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)


= English Baronies: a Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327 =
by
Ivor John Sanders
Publication date
1960-01-01
Publisher
Clarendon P
Collection
internetarchivebooks; inlibrary; printdisabled
Contributor
Internet Archive
Language
English
Item Size
753.3M
https://archive.org/details/englishbaroniess0000ivor/page/22/mode/2up?q=sybil
b########d has no reference to her as well 
Sybil is not mentioned in the book at all Pipera (talk) 03:23, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

That's because the name is spelled Sibyl, not Sybil. It has a page and footnote reference (p. 22, footnote 7), so you can go to the exact page. The statement is "Richard [fitz Urse] m. Maud, da. of Baldwin de Boullers by Sibyl de Falaise who is called niece of King Henry I. Nothing definitive is known of the ancestry of Sibyl, but it would seem that she was not the child of William de Falaise lord of Storgusey, Somerset. It is very possible that the Fitz Urse interests in Somerset came from this marriage." This is why references give page numbers, so that you can go to the exact page without having to use an index or search inside an electronic copy. Ealdgyth (talk) 03:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
A stated there is no mention of her in the text and no reference to her being called a b########d which is unforgivable no one should in any text refer to them as such, and in particular to a woman they seem to be referring to. Pipera (talk) 06:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Based on articles like this people are now calling Henry I of England her father, that is why this article needs to be balanced. Pipera (talk) 08:34, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Page 22
Richard m. Maud, da. of Baldwin de Boullers by Sibyl de Falaise who is called niece of King Henry I. Nothing definite is known of the ancestry of Sibyl but it would seem that she was not a child of William de Falaise lord of Stogursey, Somerset. Itis very possible that the Fitz Urse interests in Somerset came from this marriage (Regesta, li, no. 1923; J. Bain, ‘Notes on William de Courtenay, founder of Worspring priory’, in Genealogist, N.S. ili, pp. 193-7; G.E.C. xi, app. D). The marriage with the daughter of Baldwin de Boullers gave the descendants of Richard fitz Urse a claim to lands in the honour of Montgomery. This fact also explains why, at the start of the fourteenth century, Bulwick was said to be held of the king of the fee of Montgomery (C.R.R. xii, no. 761; C.L.P.M. vi, no. 427). In 1166 Reginald fitz Urse stated that he had enfeofted 34 knights’ fees de veteri. Later scutages were paid on this number of knights’ fees; in the thirteenth century the
https://archive.org/details/englishbaroniess0000ivor/page/22/mode/1up?q=Boullers
They quote:
Sibyl de Falaise who is called niece of King Henry I. Nothing definite is known of the ancestry of Sibyl but it would seem that she was not a child of William de Falaise lord of Stogursey, Somerset (not Referenced to where this came from?)  then how would they know to say William is not? 
English Baronies: a Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327
by Ivor John Sanders
Publication date 1960-01-01
Known brothers and sisters of Henry I of England. 
Robert II de Normandie duc de Normandie no record of a niece called Sibyl.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Curthose
Richard de Normandie no issue.
Adeliza de Normandie no issue.
Cécile de Normandie no record of a niece called Sibyl.
William II King of England no issue.
Agathe de Normandie no record of a niece called Sibyl.
Mathilde de Normandie no issue.
Constance de Normandie no issue. she married Alain de Bretagne they had no issue, he married Ermengarde d'Anjou, they had issue and no Sybilla or Sybil. I am a descendant of his marriage to Ermengarde d'Anjou. 
Adèle de Normandie her children would have been de Blois so that is not possible. (Descendant off her line.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adela_of_Normandy I am a descendant of a number of her children (5 of them.) traceable.
The only real lineage is from Adele and Henry 1 of England, and Robert de Normandie he failed to have a daughter Sybil. 
Overall, the theory lacks credential, as I am descent of the above Adele and Henry I.
Robert de Normandie had three illegitimate children one daughter I know her family tree, Richard and Guilliam there is nothing here about them and their descendants (not traceable.)
I have done a keyword search for Sybil in the database of Willaim the Conqueror, and she fails to be there. 
So, please put to rest that she is the niece of Henry 1 of England she is not. Pipera (talk) 09:08, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Sibyl was called the "nepta" (either "niece" or "kinswoman") of King Henry I of England. The term "niece" was often used to mean that the person was an illegitimate child rather than a niece, so it is possible that she was really Henry's bastard daughter. Another possibility is that she may have been more distantly related to him instead. The historian Frank Barlow also implies that she could have been Henry's daughter rather than his niece. Against this, Kathleen Thompson argues that Henry was not shy about recognizing his bastards, and that it is more likely that Sibyl was the illegitimate daughter of Henry's elder brother Robert Curthose. Robert was Duke of Normandy from 1086 (although he pawned it in 1096 to another brother, William Rufus, to finance going on the First Crusade), and Falaise was where Robert's legitimate son, William Clito, was being raised.

Sibyl was called the "nepta" (either "niece" or "kinswoman") of King Henry I of England. The term "niece" was often used to mean that the person was an illegitimate child rather than a niece, so it is possible that she was really Henry's bastard daughter
In researching this there is no firm evidence besides a writer saying so, there is no formal documentation to say this is correct, the same line appears in at least 4 publications and not sourced.

Another possibility is that she may have been more distantly related to him instead. 
Note the word possibility this is an assumption and not correct.  

The historian Frank Barlow also implies that she could have been Henry's daughter rather than his niece.
Another assumption that has no basis in any documentation.

Against this, Kathleen Thompson argues that Henry was not shy about recognizing his bastards, and that it is more likely that Sibyl was the illegitimate daughter of Henry's elder brother Robert Curthose. Robert was Duke of Normandy from 1086 (although he pawned it in 1096 to another brother, William Rufus, to finance going on the First Crusade), and Falaise was where Robert's legitimate son, William Clito, was being raised.
There is no person in the chorology of family of William the Conqueror that states he had a granddaughter to Henry I of England with her heritage. 
These are speculations and should not be guaranteed as correct.

In the time I have been doing the genealogy of Henry I of England I have traced all his descendants and never hear of her in his family tree, I have traced the family all the way back to Roll, William, Richard and Gunnora as well. 
I have traced the two children of Rollo, the son of William Richard and his 1/2 brother as well. 
I have traced all the children of Richard de Normandie and Gunnora, his mistress.
I have traced their descendants as well.
There comes a point to say that Sybil was never related to the descendants of Rollo de Normandie Comte de Rouen and Poppa. Guillaume Ier 'Longue-Épée' de Normandie comte de Rouen and Sprota. Richard 'Sans Peur' de Normandie - Comte de Rouen and Gunnora. 
Having spent over as decade researching the descendants of Rollo and his ancestors and being a descendant of Rollo, and Radulf d'Ivry comte d'Ivry I can say this because I have traced these trees not only in France as well as England. Pipera (talk) 17:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC)