# Talk:The Sufferer & the Witness

Someone keeps changing July 11, 2006 to July 4, 2006 as the release date for their new album The Sufferer and the Witness. I follow the news at any punk website very carefully and there has been no evidence that it's coming out on July 4th. The news at Punkbands.com claims that it will be out on July 11th. From now on, I would like a source for July 4th, so this edit war can end or just leave the article how it is. As I said on Talk:Rise Against. 65.222.216.15 21:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Check my response on Talk:Rise Against. sharpdust 00:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

One of the song titles was "Behing Closed Doors" I changed it to behind but I see that some places actually have it as behing. Which is it? $cammer 20:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

-- Its "Behind Closed Doors" --67.174.211.55 01:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't found any trace of the song 'Boy's No Good' actually being available in any way, suggesting that it isn't actually a bonus track on 'some European albums' as someone has said. Can anyone show any proof it exists as of yet (seeing as it is supposed to be released on a Lifetime tribute album soon)?
I found it when searching for rise against lyrics, well the lyrics.

the album isn't hardcore, its all in punk rock or melodic hardcore, even bricks isnt hardcore. listen to Revolutions per minute then at this album and you'll seen what I mean.

Ready to fall is hardcore punk, under the knife is hardcore punk, drones is hardcore punk,  injection is hardcore punk and boys no good is hardcore punk!
under the knife isn't, it just sounds violent with the title. Under the knife uses melodic vocals and more of a pop punk rhythm with the only screaming a few words in the bridge.
the Melodic hardcore page, mentions rise against as a melodic hardcore band with melodic vocals with the occasional screaming. Injection and ready to fall fit the roles well.

Songs like "Ready to fall" falls in this category. Slow tempo to fast tempo with screaming  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.94.213.82 (talk) 17:35, 4 March 2013 (UTC) 

Rise Against wanted "This is Noyse" appear to be "This is Noise". Its not a 'misconception'. This is pretty clear when they released their Canadian-Exclusive album of B-Sides, "This is Noise". (Fallingwalls1 14:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC))

There are female vocals in this song. Does anyone know who it is? (X3ni 21:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC))
It's the girl from Holy Roman Empire...it said so on their myspace awhile back. --.simply because you can breathe doesn't mean you're alive. (talk) 02:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

On my cd it shows the first track as Chamber the cartridge, not intro/chamber the cartrige... i think it should be changed--.simply because you can breathe doesn't mean you're alive. (talk) 02:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
i agree ive just checked the back cover art on tesco website who are selling the album... have amended.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.70.164 (talk) 19:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC) 

There was "EMO" in the genres? Has anyone got proof that this album is EMO genre? I've removed it  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.167.21.232 (talk) 20:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC) 
Actually, one copy of TS&TW in Best Buy had a sticker that read "Emo's biggest badasses are back with a 5 out of 5 album" or something like that. Though I do not agree with the "emo" part.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.54.248.168 (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC) 

The "lyrical themes" section reads like it was copy-pasted out of an album review and really doesn't talk about the lyrical themes at all. Who wrote that? Someone who knows the actual lyrical themes of the album ought to do a rewrite, or just remove the section altogether. 
75.10.144.40 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 18:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC). 

I'll guarantee you it was copy/pasted from that source. I'm going to delete the section, but leave the title to remind someone to do it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.141.38.10 (talk) 06:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The song "Drones" is used in the video game "Madden NFL 07" by EA Sports.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.154.152.129 (talk) 10:39, 31 May 2011 (UTC) 

For the person that was doubting if Boy's Noo Good was actually a bonus track I must say that after being years collecting rise against music I own 5 different copies of the album (in CD). If I'm not wrong all my copies are legit copies. No fake CDs. I'm checking every CD now and I have 2 CDs with that Bonus track: The Australian (simple) Edition with just one Bonus track. Then The Australian Tour Edition with 6 Bonus tracks including Boy's No Good between them. Anyone who wants just ask for proof.
(I even have a version of the album from Australia in which the front part says " Includes bonus track 'BUILT TO LAST' " and then in the back part says " INCLUDES BONUTS TRACK: BOYS NO GOOD " which I understand as an error when printing the CD booklet. )  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ederollora (talk • contribs) 16:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC) 

All these genres mentioned above and within the article need sources from third parties. See WP:RS and WP:OR. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Sufferer & the Witness/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: CelestialWeevil (talk · contribs) 17:06, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Infobox and lead
You may want to add a year tag to the mention of Siren Song of the Counter Culture in the second paragraph, as per here. This is really minor, though, so I leave it to your discretion. By the way, this is as good a place as any to say that this is my first good article review, so don't take anything I suggest as absolutely required.
"and charted in seven countries, including number ten on the Billboard 200." The wording here is strange to me. The parts don't mesh perfectly. Here are some ideas: "and charted in seven countries, including the US where it entered at position ten on the Billboard 200."
"Reviewers also highlighted the vocals of lead vocalist Tim McIlrath, and the production of Stevenson and Livermore." There are two things here. I don't think the comma is necessary since "and the production of Stevenson and Livermore" isn't a sentence unto itself. Second and less important is the repeat of "vocal" in the first part. I doubt this is a rule or in the manual of style, but I thought I would point it out in case you want to replace repeated words.
"All three songs charted on the Modern Rock Tracks chart in the United States, and accompanying music videos were produced for the three songs". The repetition of "three songs" at the beginning and ending of the sentence seems redundant.
"During the tour, guitarist Chris Chasse left the band, and was replaced by Zach Blair." Another unnecessary comma before "and", I think.
Background and production
Throughout this article, "band" and other collectives should either all be singular or all be plural (probably singular since Rise Against is American). Currently, it's inconsistent. In the first sentence, "Rise against released their..." it's plural, and later, "the band was not..." it's singular.
"denoting shipments of 500,000 copies." I think "shipment" is better than "shipments", but I'm not sure.
"success was largely due in part to", was it "largely due to" or "due in part to"? They clash a little.
"the band reconvened, and began work..." unnecessary comma
The first sentence of paragraph two probably needs a citation.
"heavier sounding" should be "heavier-sounding"
"previous unadulterated material". I get that this is technically correct, but I think it's an odd usage, kind of hurts readability for me. I would change "unadulterated" to "raw" or something like that. Again, not necessary, though.
"When it came time to record their next album, the band decided..." I think it would be better to name The Sufferer & the Witness here instead of "next album." When I first read this, I assumed it meant the album after the one we're talking about, since Sufferer had previously been named in the paragraph above.
"three-week period in which to write..." I think this is better without "in which".
Composition
"Rise against sought to return to their punk roots," another plural instance. Three solutions: "Rise Against's members sought..." or "Rise Against sought to return to its..." or make every instance plural, though that would be a little out of character for American English.
"Corey Apar of AllMusic wrote..." There should be a comma after "wrote" and before the quote.
"begins with marching drum beat..." Shouldn't this be "a marching drum beat"?
"and is played at a frenetic pace with hardcore influences." It's played with hardcore influences? I guess so, but it reads strange.
"rapid paced" is used three times in the section. The first time, it's hyphenated, the second time, it isn't, the third time, it is. I think it's used too much, and it should be consistently punctuated.
"The lyrics often discuss these topics in general terms however, instead of delving into the specifics." I would remove "however".
Release
"This new date coincided with Independence Day in the United States, which McIlrath noted was purely coincidental." You can keep this in if you feel strongly about it, but it seems kind of trivial. I get that the album is political, though, so maybe it's fine.
"number ten, and sold 48,327" unnecessary comma
"2006, and was certified gold" another unnecessary comma
"Canadian Albums Chart, and was" another
"denoting shipments of 100,000 copies" another instance where I think "shipment" would be better
These comma and shipment issues above can be applied throughout this section.
These first two prose paragraphs on where it all charted seems too exhaustive, especially since the actual charts are listed below in their own section. I would remove all of these from the prose except the most important ones.
"with Thursday which included the bands Circa Survive and Billy Talent" I would change "bands" to "opening acts" for greater clarity.
Reception
"and described it" should be "and described it as" in the second sentence.
"The two songs with major stylistic deviations-"The Approaching Curve" and "Roadside"-were thoroughly discussed by critics." I would replace the hyphens with commas, but if you want to keep them you should replace them with —.
"Davey Boy of Sputnikmusic felt that the minimal use of screaming vocals heightened their overall impact..." Boy and his publication have already been introduced.
"undermined the political lyrics more than accentuate them" should be "accentuated" with a D
Track listing
Could you show me where track 1 has "Intro/" in the title? I've been looking at various pictures of the liner notes, and all I see lists it just as "Chamber the Cartridge".
On the last sublist, is that release for a tour called "Australian Tour"? If not, you may want to uncapitalize "tour".
Personnel
Please change the "-" to "–" on Andrea French's entry.
Couldn't find any manual of style rule about this, but I perused ten random featured album articles and none of them capitalized the credited parts for the personnel.
Please change instances of "producer" to "production", "engineer" to "engineering", and "mixer" to "mixing".
References
As per Help:Citation Style 1#Titles and chapters, please use either title or sentence case consistently. Reference 2's title is in sentence case, 3's is a mix, 5's is sentence case, 8's has articles capitalized (I know this is how it is on the source website, but the citation style link also stipulates that "Wikipedia does not attempt to emulate any stylistic flourishes"), 11's is sentence case, 18's is sentence case, 19's has articles capitalized, 21's has articles capitalized, 39's has articles capitalized, 40's is sentence case, 41's is sentence case, 42's is sentence case,
You may want to use Template:Cite interview for reference 6. You could also include a subjectlink to Tim McIlrath.
Normally I see "–" used instead of "-" on review references. I couldn't find a style rule for this, but I thought I would point it out regardless. The hyphenation occurs on references 1, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 31, 32, 46, 51, 52, 54, and 56.
End comments
This is certainly good article material once the issues above are addressed.

Well-written: Mostly
Verifiable with no original research: Very good
Broad in its coverage: Everything seems to be covered, though maybe there could be a little more on the touring aspect
Neutral: Absolutely
Stable: Yes
Illustrated: Yes
After my points are responded to / fixed / explained, this will be a promotion. Good work! CelestialWeevil (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the review! I’ll try to fix these issues by tonight. Famous Hobo (talk) 17:19, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
You've addressed the main things I had, and the article looks good. Good job! CelestialWeevil (talk) 23:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

It was mentioned in the article for the Daniel Quinn wiki article that one of his books is mentioned in the readling list found on this album's cover - but there is no mention of it in the wiki article for the album. I found a reference to the whole list on this reddit thread here What books and movies should Rise Against fans know about? : r/riseagainst but no primary source (i.e. I haven't seen the actual album materials). Does anyone think they could add this? Seems like a valuable set of information to have here. Tylerdore (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I was able to find the reading list in question (it's the second to last paragraph). While it does in fact contain the Daniel Quinn book, I can't find any reliable sources that mention the reading list. I worked on this article several years ago and poured through a lot of the sources and none of them mentioned the reading list. So unfortunately I don't think it's important enough to mention. Famous Hobo (talk) 21:59, 28 June 2025 (UTC)