# Talk:Pattycake (gorilla)

Family background
Circumstances of birth
"Custody battle" incident (mostly constructed by the media to add "color" to the broken arm event)
Broken arm accident (March 1973)
Separation from parents
Hospital stay
Reintroduction
Subsequent battle between two zoos
Relevant milieu: Watergate scandal, 1973 oil crisis
News sources consistently describe Patty Cake's birth and subsequent "custody battle" as a welcome respite from the political and energy crisis
Popularity, zoo attendance, interest
Frist successful captive birth in New York (in the US?)
Animal welfare and animal rights activism
Central Park Zoo conditions
Compared to jail cell (Ferreti 1977)
Poorly funded?
Renovations, then...
Move to Bronx Zoo
1982 or 1983?
Subsequent breeding of lowland gorillas
Relations and offspring
Animal rights protests
10 babies
8 survived, 2 died after birth
Bred to supply zoos with gene pool
Association of Zoos and Aquariums Gorilla Species Survival Plan (SSP)
Congo Gorilla Forest (June, 1999)
Pattycake Fund (2002)
Paradigm shift in zoo management from bars and cages to natural environments and habitats, from entertainment to education
Research and researchers
Primitive state of primate research circa 1972?
Books and media
Appears in Mothers to Tigers
Pete Seeger song, "Patty Cake Gorilla"

Data (such as DOB) from the Frankfurt Zoo International Studbook appears to significantly diverge from standard entries.  Is this due to error on their part?

This may seem silly, but individual gorillas often have quite distinct facial and body features, we could search for images on Flickr[1] or Commons[2] from Bronx Zoo and compare with images on Google. This one from 2004 could be a match.[3] Compare with this official photo of Pattycake[4][5], note brow, nostril shape, and head shape, and bare patch on wrist. FunkMonk (talk) 02:22, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed.  I originally brought this up last year on the talk page of the uploader. FunkMonk, is this her? I can't tell. Viriditas (talk) 09:11, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Ah, thanks to the Gettyimage[6] you posted there, I'd say the Flickr image is definitely her, notice the scar (or deformity) above the right (her left) nostril here[7] Can't be a coincidence, though it is less clear, due to blur and light. Also note the right brow seems to arch a bit higher than the left on both. As for the Commons picture you linked, hard to say form that perspective since there aren't any from the exact angle on Google to compare with. But if we assume the one posted before is her, then another image form the series shows a profile[8] The brow seems more prominent than the one on Commons. FunkMonk (talk) 09:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, the scar isn't as clear, but if the bare patch identifies her, then yes, it's her.  Is the bare patch due to old scar tissue? Could it be related to her childhood accident? Viriditas (talk) 09:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps, maybe there's a source stating exactly where the break occurred, and on which arm? Bald spot seems to be past the wrist, though. FunkMonk (talk) 09:36, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
This source[9] says right arm, so wouldn't have anything to do with the spot on the left one. FunkMonk (talk) 09:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
FunkMonk, the new photo looks great.  Nice work. Viriditas (talk) 21:15, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I was a little concerned identifying it ourselves would be original research, but what the heck... FunkMonk (talk) 21:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

There's an alternative POV on Pattycake offered by author Mickey Z in a short opinion piece called "Gorilla Warfare: The Animal-Prison/Industrial Complex", hosted by World News Trust.  I haven't added it because I'm not clear if it is reliable or not to use here. WNT is a self-published site, I believe. Viriditas (talk) 22:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pattycake (gorilla)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Zanimum (talk · contribs) 23:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Birth

It took me a second to identify who the "her" in the quote was... the gorilla, the wife, or the unconceived child. Does the quote call for a square bracketed addition?
Hmm.  The first sentence introduces Pattycake's birth.  The second sentence introduces her mother.  However, I think I see the problem.  I felt that some editors might not realize that Lulu was female and Kongo was male, so I introduced her parents in the second sentence.  There's any number of ways to fix this. I'll come up with one shortly.  Thanks for pointing this out. Viriditas (talk) 00:59, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Fixed. Viriditas (talk) 01:23, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Custody dispute

Gentle Gorilla was by an artist. Immediately, I think of an illustrator, a "picture book". Was that what the book was, or was it a non-fiction tome? Was she an activist involved some how, or just reading about things in the newspaper?
The author's observations of gorilla behavior form the foundation of the book and were instrumental to the custody case.  She was an illustrator, but according to the Associated Press, she spent so much time drawing gorillas at the zoo that she was considered an unofficial employee.[10]  Keep in mind, back in the day, hobbyists and amateurs could often get directly involved in activities that are generally now considered off-limits without the right qualifications.  I'm thinking of all of those uncredentialed amateur hobbyists who used to run university space telescopes and computer labs, and amateur scientists who could actually participate in science itself.  The  Book Industry Study Group classified it as SCIENCE / Life Sciences / Zoology / Primatology.  It is not a picture book, but it does contain her illustrations. It was reviewed favorably by Library Journal in 1978. More information available in this review by Nancy Grape.[11] Viriditas (talk) 03:14, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to try and add a bit more about Susan in a few hours. Viriditas (talk) 02:39, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Congo Gorilla Forest

Is the term "glass screen" used by zoos? It sounds either too technological, or too porous.
Yeah, that does sound weird.  In the sources I see, "glass viewing window", "glass window", and "glass partition". Viriditas (talk) 01:11, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Fixed.  Changed to "glass window". Viriditas (talk) 01:23, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Passing "Breeding and offspring", "Later life".
References

I'm reviewing things offline, so I can't go into the code and see for myself, but did you use cite news for the news articles? The date being at the start of so many of the references seems off to me.
Can you be more specific about the problem?  I stopped using citation templates about two years ago and now prefer no template at all.  I'm not sure what you mean about the date. Viriditas (talk) 02:57, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Passing infobox, categories, "Further reading".
Image as OR? No.
Reading the talk page, I have no concern that this image research counts as original research. If this was an article about a dancer, and you were looking through photos of a performance, trying to figure out which person in the chorus line they were, I don't think it would be an issue. This is merely a case of being resourceful.

Good to know. Viriditas (talk) 02:57, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
That said, the lead
I always review the lead last, simply to see if there's anything mentioned in the article, that should be in the lead, that's not in the lead. Here, we've got the reverse.
There's no mention in the article proper about concern for the conditions of other animals in Central Park Zoo. There's no mention of the renovations that the incident sparked. There's no mention of attendance rates. There's no mention in the article proper about how Pattycake was a release valve for New Yorkers in a trying era.
This lead teases at a lot of content that could and should be reflected in the article. Please, whip up something relevant to this all, in the article proper. It looks like such content might have even existed already, given the to-do list. Mothers and Tigers? "Patty Cake Gorilla"? Paradigm shifts?  --  Zanimum (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. I will address your points and make the necessary edits.  I do want to ask you about a few things you said, however, so that I'm clear on what needs to be done:
There's no mention in the article proper about concern for the conditions of other animals in Central Park Zoo.
It's in the new section Central Park Zoo conditions.  Since I only added it two days ago, you might be looking at a cached copy of an older version. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I saved a copy offline. The new section looks good.  --  Zanimum (talk) 19:02, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
 There's no mention of the renovations that the incident sparked.
I touched upon it in the new section per the above.  See "Central Park Zoo conditions". Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
There's no mention of attendance rates.
To be added.... Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Done, but I may add more. Give me another day. Viriditas (talk) 02:38, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
There's no mention in the article proper about how Pattycake was a release valve for New Yorkers in a trying era
To be added... Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Done, but I may add more. Give me another day. Viriditas (talk) 02:38, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I will also address the rest of your points.  I don't use citation templates in this article, but the dates should be fine. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Without looking at the wikicode, I would have never known. Kudos, on the cleanliness, it's just odd to have dates near the end.  --  Zanimum (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
This link isn't working, it's asking for a password: http://library.sandiegozoo.org/studbooks/primates/gorilla2010.pdf Is there a page that link to this document? The link is really the only thing to deal with.  --  Zanimum (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I finally figured out how to get a URL for the PDF... Google was giving me their referral link, as opposed to the actual final URL, and the alternate host (Research Gate) wasn't letting me join without an academic email. I finally found the actual download page, and copied the link from there. It downloads properly now.
GA!  --  Zanimum (talk) 20:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)