# Talk:Sursock bronze

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sursock bronze/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Elias Ziade (talk · contribs) 15:45, 9 September 2025 (UTC)
Reviewer: Dumelow (talk · contribs) 11:53, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

Happy to take a look at this one - Dumelow (talk) 11:53, 19 October 2025 (UTC)


### 1. Well-written
Criteria: the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct;  and it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

The cult of Jupiter Heliopolitanus
"Jupiter Optimus Maximus Heliopolitanus (Latin: Iovi Optimo Maximo Heliopolitano; shortened IOMH) was a syncretic supreme deity worshipped in the Great Temple of Baalbek, located in modern-day Lebanon."
I would link syncretic and Baalbek here at least ^ Done
"While a number of scholars propose that Baal was an indigenous Canaanite deity whose cult was identified with or absorbed aspects of Hadad's"
"a number of scholars" might fall foul of MOS:AWW, can we be more specific? ^ Added footnote with sources.
Do we know when the worship of Baal-Hadad arose?  Otherwise the first mention of any dating information is at the end of the first paragraph (1st millennium BC) ^ Added
"After the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC, the Diadochi—his generals, family members, and companions"
Worth a link to Diadochi?^ Done
"During the Hellenistic period,[a] the cult of Baal-Hadad in Baalbek acquired a solar character"
Worth linking Solar deity?^ Done
"University of Nottingham scholar Andreas Kropp challenges the established notions of a solar syncretism of Jupiter Heliopolitanus and his identification with the Semitic Hadad"
Link University of Nottingham?^ Done
We've not mentioned "Semitic" before, can this be introduced?^ Done
"The Hellenistic overlords likely conflated Baal-Hadad with their sun god Helios, a storm god often depicted brandishing a whip, symbolizing lightning.[11] The whip was also a symbol associated with Helios, who was often depicted holding a whip to drive his sun chariot across the sky"
The two sentences here about Helios being associated with whips feel a bit redundant, can they be combined? ^ Much clearer now
"Modern scholars dispute this claim, recognizing it as part of the broader syncretic tendencies of Roman historians."
"modern scholars dispute" again might have issues with WP:AWW.^ Much clearer who said what
I also wasn't clear whose claim they were disputing.  Macrobius on the statue or the Egyptian priests?^ Done
" It maintain however good relations with the princes, who held control over southern access for pilgrims coming from Palestine, Arabia, or Damascus"
"maintained" presumably?^ Done
"The Temple of Jupiter Heliopolitanus in Baalbek was renowned in antiquity for its oracular functions and as a divination center"
Link oracle and Divination?^ Done
"The cult of Heliopolitan Jupiter spread from this cultic center to far corners of the Roman empire"
Can we give any examples?^ Done
"These include rites of divination and the oracular power of Jupiter, the dedication of hair to Venus Heliopolitana and the associated sacred prostitution, the prominence of astrology, ritual processions to the nearby 'Aïn el-Gouë spring with the deposition of divine images in the sacred spring's basins, liturgical banquets, ritual purification and hair shaving, the prohibition of pork, and the celebration of the Maiuma festival"
Could probably use some links.  Eg. Venus (mythology), Sacred prostitution, astrology, ritual purification, Religious restrictions on the consumption of pork, Maiuma (festival)?^ Done
Identification and descriptions of the Heliopolitan Jupiter iconographic type
"Some of the bronze statuettes replace the kalathos with a pschent, the Ancient Egyptian double crown, or a radiate crown as shown on miniature engravings."
link radiate crown?^ Done
The mention of miniature engravings in relation to the radiate crown confused me here, are we saying they show it or the bronze statuettes, or both?^ rephrased
"The god is often depicted donning his characteristic kalathos, a vase-shaped headdress that tapers at the base ... Typically, he is depicted standing, wearing a kalathos (a basket shaped headdress that flares upward and outward from a torus-shaped base) ... and an ependytes (a close-fitting dress) and an armor "
I don't think we need to describe the kalathos twice (and slightly differently) in close succession^ Oops, removed
The "and" before "an ependytes" is superfluous I think?^ Done
Discovery
" The French archaeologist and then Deputy Curator of Louvre's Department of Near Eastern Antiquities René Dussaud, writing in his 1920 monograph "Jupiter héliopolitain. Bronze de la collection Charles Sursock", identified Baalbek as the discovery site"
I think needs a "the" before Louvre?^ Done
"a location considered credible by historian Joseph Hajjar due to its association with two dedications to Heliopolitan Jupitear."
Typo on the last word^ Done
Composition and description
"the god is depicted standing on a cubic base measuring 5.5 cm × 5 cm (2.2 in × 2.0 in)"
Do we know the third dimension, if not which two of the three are these?^ I put Dussaud's measurements
"Two bulls, flank the effigy of the god, with the entire group resting on a rectangular base measuring 14.7 cm (5.8 in) wide, 12.7 cm (5.0 in) deep and 4.7 cm (1.9 in) high."
First comma not needed^ Done
"The front and back of deity's armor is divided into square registers, with one to two registers per row."
Not all of them are square, perhaps "rectangular" is better?^^ You're very observant but I will keep the "square" here, but if you insist i can still review the sources and do the necessary changes. 
"The third register also includes two registers featuring Mars wearing military cuirass with imbricated scales and a legionary's shoulder piece, alongside Mercury with a caduceus and a winged helmet."
This should be "third row", I think, and not register?^ Absoluetely, yes
"These fields feature each a stylized thunderbolt"
Would read better to me as "each feature"^ Done
Interpretation
"Hajjar offered an alternative hypothesis, referencing ancient texts that describe the simulacrum of Jupiter Heliopolitanus being carried on a 'ferculum during processions before delivering oracles."
Is the apostrophe before "ferculum" intended? It's not used in the adjacent caption ^ removed typo
Iconographical precedents
"He adds that, while some iconographic elements, like grouped divine bust on the deity's dress reflect artistic trends from the second century AD, others suggest greater antiquity, drawing similarity to a bronze in the Louvre (pictured)."
I think this should be the plural "busts"?^ Done
"According to Bel, the planetary deities ornamentation reflects a Roman Imperial era conceptualization, in which Jupiter Heliopolitanus evolved into a cosmological, universal force, encompassing planetary motion, the passage of time, and possessing oracular abilities that enjoyed significant popularity during the imperial period"
You haven't introduced Bel before, could use a short introduction ^ Done
This feels like a complicated sentence that I don't think I followed, is there any way it can be simplified for the layman?^ I often struggle with French sources, which always have a literary ring to them, it's such a beautiful language that doesnt translate well.
Lead
Felt a little long, I find a good length is around 300-400 words.  Is there anything that can be trimmed, I thought perhaps the second and third paragraphs could be made more concise and combined? ^ Done
"Four-pointed stars etched next to Mars, Mercury, and Saturn to indicate their planetary nature, while Venus is flanked by a pair of stars, alluding to her dual aspects as 'morning' and 'evening star'."
Has an error in syntax ^ Done


### 2. Verifiable with no original research
Criteria: it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline; reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose); it contains no original research; and it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.

"The Sursock bronze is modeled after the great statue of Jupiter Heliopolitanus as it stood in the Great Temple of Baalbek around the mid-second century AD"
I couldn't see where this part of the lead was supported in the main text.^ You're right, i fixed it. It's from the Dating section.
"it is also the largest Roman temple ever constructed"
I couldn't access the sources but our article says the Temple of Venus and Roma in Rome was larger.  Can you provide an extract of what the modern sources say (the citation to Gordon 1921 is probably not worth using here)
The temple of Venus and Roma was the largest, within Rome, not the Roman world. From Magli A topographical alignment with the area at which the Hellenistic water pipe enters the city, Ain Juj, has been proposed [23]. At Ain Juj the remains of a small round building, with suggested date at the end of 1 BC, were found, but the building is today lost, and its location is unsure. Furthermore, the idea that the largest Temple of the Roman empire was oriented to a water supply, however sacred its source might have been, is frankly difficult to believe (the assertion that the so-called Temple of the Muses is also directed to the same point is only approximatively true; the orientation of this temple is instead clearly astronomical, as shown below).
From Paturel, p1 Yet by the mid-third century, Baalbek-Heliopolis was host to one of the largest religious sanctuaries anywhere in the Roman Empire.
Idem page 200 The scale of the building is enormous; the Temple stood on a podium 13.5m above the Great Court, with columns rising another 20m, giving a gable some 40m above the floor below (Ward-Perkins 1981, 316). The Great Court measured 97m by 86m and would have been nearly 200m long if the Temple plan had ever been completed according to its hypothetical original design. The Temple was the largest religious building anywhere in the Roman Empire (Sader, Scheffler, and Neuwirth 1998, ix) including Rome itself el.ziade (talkallam) 16:01, 24 October 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for providing the quotes.  Looks good.  You may want to use them to change the lead of Temple of Jupiter (Baalbek) which says (uncited) "It is the largest of the Roman world after the Temple of Venus and Roma in Rome", but that's obviously outside the scope of this GA review - Dumelow (talk) 16:15, 24 October 2025 (UTC)
"Modern scholars dispute this claim, recognizing it as part of the broader syncretic tendencies of Roman historians"
This is cited to "Dussaud 1920, p. 4; Seyrig 1929, pp. 346–347; Hajjar 1977b, p. 514", while certainly "modern" compared to Macrobius, is there nobody more recent we can cite?  Otherwise I might be tempted to rephrase this as "by the 20th century scholars..."^ Clarified
I am limited in what I have access to (or can translate) from the sources but have checked the following:
"The cult of Hadad found its way to Rome, where he was mentioned in three inscriptions on an altar uncovered on the eastern slopes of the Janiculum hill. The inscriptions read: "to the god Adados", "to the god Adados of Libanos", and "to the god Adados of the Mountaintop" are believed by British classical archaeologist and scholar Arthur Bernard Cook to suggest an increasing trend toward associating Hadad more with Jupiter, known as a mountain god, rather than with Helios"
Broadly checks out to Cook 1914, pp. 550–551; although he says it was Zeus that Hadad was equated with, rather than Jupiter, though I appreciate they were equivalent.^ I added a hyphen, as is often done when referring to gods in cases of interpretatio
that the "thunderbolt" was a symbol of Hadad is confirmed by Green 2003, p. 85.
"The whip was also a symbol associated with Helios, who was often depicted holding a whip to drive his sun chariot across the sky"
Could probably use a more recent reference than Heck 1851, p. 422.
"by the 1st millennium BC, Hadad and Baal were regarded as distinct deities: Hadad was primarilly venerated by the Aramaeans, while Baal was venerated by the Phoenicians and other Canaanites"
Checks out to  Hermann 1999, p. 132.
That Gennaios was "a figure regarded as a solar deity venerated at Baalbek" checks out to  Hill 1910, pp. XLVIII–XLIX, 9 but again, do we have a more modern source on the matter?
"The variability of iconography of Jupiter Heliopolitanus may stem from limited access to the cult statue in its temple adyton and restricted opportunities to observe it closely outside occasional processions."
Checks out to Kropp 2010, pp. 234–235.
I didn't pick up on any overly close paraphrasing form the sources I checked and Earwig flags nothing of concern


### 3. Broad in its coverage
Criteria: it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

I am not experienced in the field but I found no obvious gaps and the level of detail felt appropriate - Dumelow (talk) 07:00, 20 October 2025 (UTC)


### 4. Neutral
Criteria: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.

No obvious issues with WP:NPOV - Dumelow (talk) 07:00, 20 October 2025 (UTC)


### 5. Stable
Criteria: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Article moved to mainspace early September, there have been no major changes since and no evidence of dispute on the talk page - Dumelow (talk) 08:05, 20 October 2025 (UTC)


### 6. Illustrated
Criteria: media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; and media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Image licenses all look to be appropriate
Captions all contain material stated in the article or obvious from the image/source, except the altar series, which has a citation
I think an image of the back of the object would be useful.  I found myself referring to one to work out what the back of the dress looked like

Dumelow Thank you so much for taking the time to review this article. I hope it’s not too dry and that it was at least somewhat interesting to read! Your detailed comments are extremely helpful and I really appreciate how you pointed out style and contextual refinements. I’ll go through your notes carefully and make the adjustments you suggested. If there’s anything in particular you’d like me to clarify or expand on before you reach a final verdict, please let me know. I truly value the time and care you’ve put into this review. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:04, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

No worries, it's an area of history I don't know much about so I found it quite an interesting read.  I'll try to complete the review against criteria 2 today.  Feel free to disagree with any of my stylistic suggestions, by the way! - Dumelow (talk) 14:35, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
I have completed my review and will now show this as on hold; actions in sections 1, 2 and 6 above - Dumelow (talk) 06:49, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
@Dumelow Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I will be addressing the identified issues progressively and will ping you when I have made good progress. el.ziade (talkallam) 10:34, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
Dumelow I have addressed your comments, please let me know if I skipped anything or if you have further suggestions for improvement. el.ziade (talkallam) 10:37, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
Hi el.ziade, your changes all look good to me.  Excellent work on this article, well done!  I will pass it for GA.  One thing I would still consider is adding an image showing the back of the statue (there are some on Commons); I found myself having to pull one up to assist with my understanding of the text - Dumelow (talk) 11:59, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
@Dumelow Thank you so much for taking the time to review this! It makes me so happy you found it interesting. I had prepared a close-up image for the back and will add it to the article. I really appreciate your thoughtful feedback and the GA pass, thank you again for the kind words and careful review! el.ziade (talkallam) 13:41, 28 October 2025 (UTC)


### Sursock bronze
I've listed this article for peer review because I’ve worked hard to bring it to a high standard and would love to refine it further with your feedback. I believe it could eventually meet Featured Article criteria, and I’d greatly appreciate any suggestions for improvement.
Thanks, el.ziade (talkallam) 15:10, 28 October 2025 (UTC)


#### Cas Liber
Looks promising at first glance...

I admit I had not come across the term "sculptural group" before, though figured out what it meant pretty readily.Not sure this is actionable as such though.
Iovi Optimo Maximo Heliopolitano - is Latin dative. Looks a bit odd just saying "Latin" there. Possibly misleading as it implies that Jupiter Optimus Maximus Heliopolitanus is not Latin (??)
The Discovery section doesn't mention possible options of discovery dates, apart from when the Louvre got it.
Otherwise, looked okay - definitely comprehensive. Prose looked okay but am tired and tuned out a bit. Might try to revisit later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:25, 9 November 2025 (UTC)

@Casliber Thanks for the feedback and don't feel rushed. Thanks for pointing out the dative case issue; I have adjusted the language label. Sources don’t give a discovery date; they only mention when the Louvre acquired it. el.ziade (talkallam) 08:49, 11 November 2025 (UTC)


#### Funk
I'll have a look when Cas is done, then I should be able to support at FAC as well. FunkMonk (talk) 23:58, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
Link Hadad in first instead of second mention in the article body.
Likewise with Helios.
Link Phoenicians?
"The Hellenistic overlords likely conflated Baal-Hadad with their sun god Helios; Baal, a storm god often depicted brandishing a whip symbolizing lightning" and This shared iconography likely led to the conflation of the two deities by the new Hellenistic overlords who also renamed the town Heliopolis." very similar wording in close succession, is there a way to consolidate these senescence or shorten one?
Add dates for mentioned publications in footnote a for context?
Link solar deity and other general types of deities if articles exist?
Link Ptolemaic.
"Tetradrachm of Antiochus XII Dionysus (87/6–84/3 BC), Damascus mint" Link Damascus?
Link ancient Rome and ancient Egypt at first mentions.
Hellenistic period is duplinked in footnote b.
"kalathos, a basket-shaped headdress that tapers at the base. Some of the bronze statuettes replace the kalathos with a pschent" if kalathos is in italics, shouldn't pschent also be? Kalathos also isn't in italics at every mention.
"All parts of the bronze group were hacked and disjointed with the kalathos headdress separated from the head, the head detached from the body and the small cubic pedestal separated from the underlying larger base." as in they were found in this condition?
As it was named after Charles Sursock, wouldn't it almost make more sense to show an image of him than of René Dussaud?
You link ears of wheat a few times after their first mention.
"house cultic animals" which animals?
There's what appears to be an unintentional line break between "The fourth row features the busts of a bearded" and "and draped Jupiter", but either way the paragraph looks very long and could be broken into two in a more accurate way.
"supporting the figure of the Jupiter" I don't think the second "the" is needed.
Link Israelite, golden calf, and Hebrew.
"it wasn't" contractions are discouraged, check for that throughout.
Link incense burner?
"He also posited that the vandalism to which the statuette was subjected implies that the idol was damaged by early Christians iconoclasts.[32]" this is stated almost word for word in the Discovery section, which could warrant consolidation, and iconoclast is also first linked at second mention.
The Sursock Bronze, would then, according to Dussaud, be positioned above an opening in a temple platform, may have served as a conduit for such responses" something off with this sentence, a word missing? Maybe "and" before "may have"?
Link Judaic.
"He adds that, while some iconographic elements, like grouped divine busts on the deity's dress reflect artistic trends from the second century AD, others suggest greater antiquity, drawing similarity to a bronze in the Louvre (pictured)." very convoluted sentence, seems a comma is missing after dress, but maybe the whole sentence can be restructured somehow.
Link Persian.
"Canaanite god with composite headdress, Louvre." the caption could perhaps briefly establish its relevance to the subject as the article body does.
You give discovery location for all but two images in the gallery under Iconographical variability.
"of the celestial deities busts" I think it should be "deity busts", as "busts" is enough to indicate plural.
Link jinn.
Have there been any calls to bring it back to Lebanon?
"now in the Louvre." While it may seem a given, could state this is in Paris, also in the article body.
"The temple, the largest in the Roman world" Link Roman world to something?
The middle paragraph of the intro is pretty huge, could be split in two.

"Sursock statuette, is a second century AD" why isn’t second turned into 2nd? I think WP:CENTURY doesn’t allow this? correct me if I’m wrong the bfdi guy… not really it’s actually raveCrowny (talk) 19:54, 2 November 2025 (UTC)