# Talk:Spec Ops: The Line

Controversy - Never start a sentence with "Because" --92.237.214.71 (talk) 19:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Lead Writer Comments - Should we place excerpts from Walt Williams' internet interviews into the Development section? It offers some informative insight on the writing for the game.
Crazykiddxt2 (talk) 04:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

God...there's a lot of detail in this article. I know this game's complex in story matters, but it's way too much detail. I'm not the most proficient at writing sentence in English, so I'm requesting some help. I tried to cut out some quotes, POV and detail from the ending sub-section but I know it's not great.-2601:9:33C0:0:39CB:A07F:EC65:DD1E (talk) 05:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Yea, sorry about that. I wrote the first plot synopsis a few days after the launch  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Spec_Ops:_The_Line&oldid=499850028 ) using my personal notes. I figured once all of the details were there people could revise (which they did) and cut down (which they did not) the text and gameplay, and maybe use the full summary for a Wikia article. This is a Wikipedia article on a great game though; the community will probably have it fixed and completely presentable in no time.
Crazykiddxt2 (talk) 14:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
It totally agree it should go to Wikia, replaced by something comprehensible, but I don't see anyone doing it. Dead or Alive: Dimensions has a similar problem for quite a long time. --94.246.154.130 (talk) 18:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Have trimmed the plot a bit further. As a fan its difficult because the plot really is what makes this game. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 14:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
It seems that over the years the plot section was cut down as needed, but the narrative design section was not. It's still double the length of the plot section itself. I'll trying working on that. 74.97.71.70 (talk) 02:05, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

In contrast, I'd consider adding to the gameplay section. As of right now, it's somewhat small and there is plenty of removed information that can be added back from old revisions, such as expanding the roles of Delta squad (e.g. Adams being the Squad automatic weapon gunner, aviator, etc.) 74.97.71.70 (talk) 02:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

And then it can become a GA. --Niemti (talk) 22:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason for this? Also thanks for expanding the reception. I'll look to copy-edit everything again soon. --Niemti (talk) 21:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"the premise is inspired by Joseph Conrad's novella Heart of Darkness" - the only time Heart of Darkness is mentioned in the article
"Multiple commentators observed similarities to Francis Ford Coppola's Vietnam drama Apocalypse Now in the game's feel and expression of inglorious war." - the only time Apocalypse Now is mentioned in the article
While I don't doubt it's true, the lead is not a summary - and apparently lots of info is missing from the article. --Niemti (talk) 16:28, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

A few links in the article point to Burj Khalifa, or the name itself has been referred twice. The entire game is fictional. I don't think it should point to a real life location. Rishabh Tatiraju (talk) 15:24, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Even the most cursory amount of research will tell you that Dubai is not in fact fictional and that when they refer to the tallest building in Dubai, they are probably talking about the tallest building in Dubai. Herr Gruber (talk) 22:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

A throwaway line in a single article (and I guess it's title) - no real direct quotes I found from the developer's suggest this is an adaptation of Heart of Darkness.
Sure, may have some inspiration, but don't think it belongs on the template box thing at the bottom.ZayZayEM (talk) 11:17, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Spec Ops: The Line/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 21:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I'll have this finished within a day or two. JAGUAR  21:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC)


### Initial comments
I converted all dates to mdy, if that's OK
"It was also later released for OS X and Linux in 2013 and 2015 respectively" - comma needed after 2015
"It is the eleventh title, and a reboot, in the Spec Ops series" - may read better as of the Spec ops series
"The player needs to make morally grey decisions" - sounds informal/vague. Just "moral decisions" is fine
"Williams later added that adding achievements"- link achievements (video gaming)
I noticed Polygon isn't italicised in the review box
No dead links
No dup links
I couldn't find anything worthy enough to put this on hold, so I'll pass it now. All in all, it meets the criteria. Well done  JAGUAR  20:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

@Jaguar: Thanks for the review! I have addressed the issues you raised above. I am not sure why Polygon isn't italicized in the review box though.  AdrianGamer (talk) 15:53, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for this! Glad this finally got that recognition. I want to try to make it a featured article. 74.97.71.70 (talk) 02:18, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Was considering explaining this better, is wall cloud or shelf cloud something accurate to link to? 74.97.71.70 (talk) 04:42, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

To elaborate for anyone reading this, I found out that neither are accurate. I think the setting section does an sufficient job of explaining what the storm wall is. Liar's Lair (talk) 06:29, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think this is important to bring up since it looks like you'd like to bring this article to FA status. Currently the plot section is over 1000 words, which is not including the setting or endings sections. While there isn't a set limit to how long video game plot sections should be, WP:FILMPLOT recommends under 700 words, which is something that a lot of video game article editors adhere to. Like I said, this isn't a set rule, but you may want to consider condensing the plot section down a bit. If we were able to condense the hellish nightmare that is the Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward story into just a little over 700 words, then I think it's possible for this game. Famous Hobo (talk) 03:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Lmao "hellish nightmare"! That's pretty accurate though, it's difficult to condense the summary of extremely detailed game stories, especially since both the 999 sequel and Spec Ops are already like triple the length of a film at minimum. But yeah, that's important to bring up, thank you for this. I didn't exactly know what the standards were, it just looked like the plot section wasn't that big when compared to the narrative section (I can easily remove like two or three paragraphs there), so I didn't really cut down too much for the plot. There's several things that already come to mind that I think I can remove like "Lugo is upset", etc., it's probably just like the last 850-700 word cut that'll be tricky. I don't think I can do too much to the setting either, though maybe the Endings section could be cut down a little bit instead. 74.97.71.70 (talk) 04:57, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
I have class today, but I'll try and look over the plot section when I get back. I pretty much remember how this game goes, so I think I could help you in shortening the plot section. The nice this about this game when compared to Virtue's Last Reward is that this game actually has a conventional plot that goes from point a to point b, and doesn't involve timelines. Seriously though, timelines can really screw over a plot section, as we'll soon find that out the hard way if we every get around to editing Zero Time Dilemma. Famous Hobo (talk) 14:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, I appreciate that, I definitely need a second hand of help. The main reason the plot section is pretty nice right now (other than size) is because while I was editing another editor changed some things by explaining them differently, then I built on top of that too. By the time you get back I should have changed some things. 74.97.71.70 (talk) 15:19, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
And @Famous Hobo I'd like to ask for your help in editing the reception section since you and IDV did a great job on the VLR reception section and you probably know how to phrase it better than I can, as per the Copyediting guide. Liar's Lair (talk) 17:41, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Sure, I guess I could check it out. To be honest, I'm not that good at writing reception sections, especially since IDV and I have had to rewrite the reception section for VLR twice so far during its FAC. I know AdrianGamer always does a good job with reception sections, especially since I used Crysis 3 as a model on how to write the VLR reception section. Famous Hobo (talk) 18:01, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Haha that's interesting, I didn't expect that. OK, then I guess I will try to change it first and then ask Adrian to look it over instead. And then maybe you can help me with the narrative design section, since it turns out Adrian wrote nearly the entire thing so he might be done with looking at it. Liar's Lair (talk) 23:13, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
The best way to bring this article to FA is to create an account. I think most FA reviewers would have doubts about you and the article if you nominates it as an IP. AdrianGamer (talk) 14:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
OK, done. I'm the 74.97 IPs (couldn't think of a better name). I see that you're a frequent editor of the article too. Could I ask you for some help as well? Liar's Lair (talk) 19:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Of course you can! I will try my best to help. AdrianGamer (talk) 02:35, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! and thanks for your work earlier as well, since you seem to be mainly responsible for bringing this article to GA status. I'll try to merge some paragraphs in the narrative design section you made, then I'll update you on that when I'm done, and hopefully you can look it over and fix any mistakes I make. Liar's Lair (talk) 17:37, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
The plot section is 699 words now, but it's kind of missing some stuff that makes it a little bit unclear if you're unfamiliar with the game (and if it's the first time you're reading the section). I think the best course of action would be to cut it down even more, to something like 620-650 words, then add back what was taken out as necessary. I'll come back to this after the other sections have been worked on. Liar's Lair (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
It's been a while since I played this game, so I don't remember the story too well. I decided to go through the plot sections, and here's what I got:

To be honest, the story reads just fine. However, there are a few sentences that read awkwardly, but I wasn't quite sure how to fix them. Once you feel that you have combed through the article enough, I recommend sending a copyedit request to the Guild of Copyeditors. It'll take a while before they can respond to your request, but trust me, it's worth it. I did that with VLR, and it really helped out. Famous Hobo (talk) 03:19, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh wow! I wasn't expecting such a big, in-depth response. A few of those edits were made for spacing/wordcount reasons or not made by me, so it's good to have that second opinion. The section just hit the 700 word limit, so this is good timing. Anyway, thank you for this! I'll get working on it right away. ...And it probably will be another month or two before the entire article is ready for the copyedit request, from the looks of it. Also, I realize now that display aspect ratio probably isn't something that should be taken into consideration (at least compared to clarity), but here's what this article's section currently looks like on my screen. Liar's Lair (talk) 16:42, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Responded to a few of those. Liar's Lair (talk) 17:07, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
I put the comments into a folder now. I more or less agree with or understand everything that you've responded with, and I already changed the article, so I didn't respond further. The section could still use some work, but for the most part, I'm happy with it for now. The other sections should get priority. Thank you! Liar's Lair (talk) 06:29, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
350 words for the setting, 720 for the plot, and 310 for the endings; I think that's reasonably close to the 700 limit. The only thing I'm not fully satisfied with is some of the quotes, specifically refs 27, 31, and 34 (as of this revision). I'll stop changing the section itself now though, since I think at this point I can only make it worse. Liar's Lair (talk) 16:36, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Since the plot section is nearly finished (we can just add minor changes as we focus elsewhere), and the development section is the next part of the article I'll start working on, I think it's time for a new section on the talk page about the improvement of this article. Liar's Lair (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Just an update, after I'm done with the Dev section I'll move on to the release section (I might end up merging them), and then I'll loop back around to the gameplay section and try to add some stuff from these sections/previous revisions back into it. Then finally I'll try to make the Reception section closer to the aforementioned examples of pages with good Reception sections, and submit a copyedit request. This will take anywhere from two weeks to two months, so stick with me on this. Liar's Lair (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Another update, I'll probably implement my changes to the Development section with a single major edit, since many of my edits so far have been somewhat small, kind of clogging up the edit history of the article (as an IP I didn't use the preview button, making that even worse, but even now that I do I end up having to change something minor later on anyway). Which means it will be like around a week before anything has changed on the live article. Liar's Lair (talk) 06:35, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Liar's Lair asked me to be a mentor for this article's planned FAC; as it has not yet been nominated, I'm going to give it a high-level pre-review. --PresN 00:50, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Do note that, while I'm pretty impressed by how well you're doing this, you are pretty new to Wikipedia, so there are going to be a lot of things that reviewers jump on that you never saw coming. Make sure to get a good copyedit for the article before nominating, and be prepared for a ton of small comments that you'll want to be jumping on pretty quickly so they don't bog down the nomination.
It's more that I had to edit a WP article for a high school project and took some writing classes in college, but thank you for the compliment. I'll try to address as much as I can as soon as possible.
The "release" sentence in the lead is confusing- it was released on Windows in NA on the 26th, and internationally on everything on the 29th? Or just on Windows internationally on the 29th, and on some other date on the PS3/X360 in some regions? Or all three platforms on the same dates, 26th for NA and 29th for PS3/X360? Especially given this is the lead, dropping a bit of over-specificity would simplify this a lot: "It was released in June 2012 for Microsoft Windows and the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 consoles." The exact date is in the infobox; it's not so important that it needs to be in the second sentence of the article.
It was released on everything in NA on the 26th, and internationally on everything on the 29th, but I'll just change it to June 2012 as you've written for brevity's sake.
"The game suffered from multiple delays, as the team used this period of time" -  as makes no sense here; "suffered from multiple delays, and the team used this time"
Done - as for "taking inspiration for the setting and story framework from various media, including Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now", would it be better to write something like "Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now heavily inspired the setting and story framework, though various other media was also influential"? I'd like to get across that HoD and AN are the primary influences in the lead somehow, rather than making it look like they're just randomly selected for the lead.
That would work, though you could just change what's there now - "from various media, including Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now." - to "from various media, especially Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now."
It's generally a bad idea to have bullet points in the middle of prose, like you have in Gameplay. Note that Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare manages to avoid them (not that I'm holding that article up as perfect)
All right, I'll try to get rid of them. The MP section itself is kind of short anyway, so writing it out should meaten it up a bit.
It's also generally a bad idea to have references in the middle of sentences and not have one at the end. Gives the impression (right or wrong) that the second half of the sentence is unreferenced
That's a problem throughout the article. I'll keep it in mind as I come across them, but I wouldn't expect it to be fully addressed anytime soon
North and Boxleitner don't "star" as the characters (this isn't a movie), they "voice" the characters
Done
The plot section is a touch long, and some of the paragraphs a bit short- aim more for 5-7 sentences, not 3
With some help, I already did a major overhaul of the plot section (as you can partially see above). I reduced it from 1000+ words to a little over 700, taking out many different plot points in the process. I couldn't do much more to it even if I tried - but I'll see if I could somehow merge a few paragraphs, that should hopefully reduce (but it might increase) the wordcount a bit in the process. Otherwise we'll need another editor very familiar with the game
Again, bullet points are a bad idea. Find a way to discuss the endings without them- this may involve not getting so detailed
The quotes could be removed (this is prioritizing clarity over concise), but for a basic understanding of the story, a majority of the other words cannot. There really isn't much more I can do about this.
Eh, it is what it is.
It's usually a bad idea to have a single-paragraph subsection, but there's not much for it for "Audio" unless you have more information
I am going to add something to that section - but thank you for bringing this to my attention, I honestly forgot about what I would have added to that
Hmm. The reception section isn't "bad", per se, but I'm not really a fan of the general, unattributed statements with copious citations that you're using, as opposed to "Critics, such as X of Y, Z of A, and B of C, said it was compelling, engaging, riveting, and mature.[1][2][3][4]" Not sure how reviewers at FAC will like it either.
I'll admit, it's far from the standard. I have a few ideas in mind, but there's other editors better than I for the reception section, since you don't really need to know that much about the game if you're that good at fixing those sections
Yeah, the short 1-paragraph subsections in reception aren't great, nor the "Future" section. Combine all three into a "Legacy" section.
Great idea, will do.
Some of these sources don't seem like RSs, and you'll have to justify them at FAC: Unseen64 (37), Wordpress (38; the actual publisher is the person whose blog it is), Asturscore (57), Spong.com (85), Gaming Bolt (93)
Thanks for this, I will remove a few but justify the necessary ones.
ref 39 is missing an accessdate, ref 46 should have Youtube in the "|via=", not publisher
The latter is done - as for the accessdate, should I go through the history of the article to find when it was added? Or should I just try to remove the ref altogether
Accessdates are just some date when the page was verified as having the information that it's being used to cite, so, you could just open up the link and set the accessdate to today.
Thank you for this! I responded to and/or implemented a few of these, I'll get to the rest later. Liar's Lair (talk) 12:33, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
@PresN: Responded to everything, minimal implementation though. I'll come back to these once you've responded. Thanks again! Liar's Lair (talk) 17:49, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

@Liar's Lair: - Missed this; I think because you pinged User:PresN instead of just PresN. Anyway, responded to the comments you left me. --PresN 01:38, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm really pleased this article is undergoing drastic positive changes, but it seems like the plot section still needs a bit of work. Everyone else here must be sick of editing this xD I've trimmed it down to 603 words so that it meets the word count for featured article, but I think I've trimmed too much, so thought I would check here for opinion in words-only format. Check it against the current revision and let me know what you think.
The game begins in medias res with Walker, Adams, and Lugo flying in a helicopter past the skyscrapers of Dubai, being pursued by several other helicopters until a sudden sandstorm forms, causing one of the pursuers to spin out of control and crash into the trio. The story then jumps back to the start, with Walker, Adams, and Lugo traversing the storm wall to the outskirts of a mostly buried Dubai, being taunted on broadcasts by the Radioman (Jake Busey), a DJ and former journalist speaking for the 33rd. Coming across refugees being rounded up by loyalist 33rd soldiers, the team attempts to intervene peacefully, but the soldiers mistake them for CIA operatives and start a firefight. Contradicting his orders, Walker elects to find Konrad, who saved his life in Afghanistan.
Receiving a broadcast of CIA agent Daniels being interrogated by the 33rd, the team chooses to interfere. Tracing the signal's origin, they find Daniels already dead and the broadcast was a trap set for fellow CIA agent, Gould. Gould helps Delta escape, but is later captured and killed while assaulting a location called the Gate. Delta head there to continue his attack. Finding it heavily guarded by the 33rd, the team employs white phosphorus to obliterate their opposition and advance further into the city. While walking through the aftermath, they realize they accidentally killed 47 civilians moved to the Gate for shelter by the 33rd. Walker blames the 33rd and vows revenge.
Finding Konrad's executed command team, Walker uses a small radio to communicate with who he believes to be Konrad himself, who challenges the morality of his actions throughout the story. Konrad then manipulates Walker into executing an Emirati survivor or a 33rd soldier, who both committed serious crimes. Delta subsequently meet CIA agent Jeff Riggs, who is leading a raid on the city's last water supply. Delta aids Riggs with the aim of crippling the 33rd's operations, but Riggs destroys the supply instead, admitting he wanted to wipe out the remaining population of Dubai to prevent a larger war from breaking out as he dies.
With the city's residents now facing death from dehydration, Delta heads to the radio tower to silence the Radioman. After Lugo kills the Radioman, Walker informs the city of Delta's planned evacuation effort. Adams commandeers a Black Hawk helicopter to escape the building, and Walker destroys the tower as they flee the scene, leading to the helicopter sequence from the opening of the game (which Walker seems to remember). After the aforementioned crash, Walker awakens in the middle of the desert and reunites with Adams, but is too late to stop Lugo from being lynched by a mob of civilians. Walker and Adams make their way to the Burj Khalifa tower to confront Konrad, but are soon pinned down by the last of his men. Walker, who surrenders, is pushed to safety by Adams, who fights to the death.
The remnants of the 33rd surrender to Walker inside the tower. Meeting Konrad, he appears to be the charismatic, villainous force behind the atrocities that Walker was hoping for, until Walker finds his decaying corpse on the penthouse deck. Walker finds that Konrad committed suicide, and he has been communicating with a traumatic hallucination created in his mind as a dissociative disorder upon the aftermath of the white phosphorus strike. Rationalizing the actions he had witnessed and carried out, Walker distorted many subsequent events of the game to make Konrad look responsible. With this revelation, 'Konrad' forces Walker, at gunpoint, to decide once and for all if he is to blame for events in Dubai.
ChrisMorris1234 (talk) 19:43, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Do you feel like a hero yet?. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 11#Do you feel like a hero yet? until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Onel5969 TT me 01:07, 11 February 2021 (UTC)