# Talk:Ottawa Senators

From 1883 to 1954, the Ottawa Hockey Club existed in Ottawa. In 1992, a new team started play. The connection between the two is marketing, based on the popularity of the Ottawa hockey history. It is something to be proud of, the original team, the traditions of providing many great players. So, it is important to keep the Senators name, the original sweaters, and on and on. It is a genuine reverence, and the Senators have that. They are definitely connected, but no-one from the original team participated and were involved in the business and legal process. Part of the marketing, yes. And the original developers saw an angle to leverage that reverence to back their development. Ottawa is a solid hockey town. One of the originals to so many things. Organized hockey. Organized league. Organized pro hockey. NHA. NHL. Original Senators were in team guides for the current team. It was partly to claim legitimacy when the current club's management was disastrous. Today, the current Senators continue to honour that tradition, but the teams are different entities.
Anyway, so mentioning the connection in marketing is valid, but not in statistics, years of operation, number of Cups, etc. Alaney2k (talk) 20:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

The Winnipeg Jets celebrate/honour the original Winnipeg Jets, but they're not the same franchise. Indeed, the Minnesota Wild have celebrated the Minnesota North Stars & they're not the same franchise. Then there's the Colorado Avalanche's nods to the Colorado Rockies. The Senators doings aren't unique or warrant too much mention. GoodDay (talk) 20:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
The issue has been discussed frigging exhaustively over the years; the following quote's one of mine from 2005, which needed repeating in 2010:The NHL's own Media Guides date the franchise solely from 1992 - in year to year record, in club records, in coaching, captains' and GMs' histories, in head-to-head all-time records, in Stanley Cup wins. To quote from page 93 of the 2005 Guide, "Franchise date: December 16, 1991 - 13th NHL Season" In no way, shape or form does the NHL treat them as the same franchise, and the league's made its POV clear, whatever some scrap of metal and wood in a storage box in back of the team offices might read. I read the Senators' official site, and among other things, I glanced at their career leaders board. Not one original Senator is mentioned. Yet if it was just one franchise, Cy Denneny would be the Sens' career goals leader with 245, and Frank Nighbor, George Boucher and Hec Kilrea would make the leader board. Denneny (5th) and Nighbor (9th) should be in the career points leaders. Boucher would be second in penalty minutes with 604, King Clancy 4th, Alex Smith 5th. Hall of Famer Alec Connell should be the career leader in goaltending games, wins and shutouts, categories in which Hall of Famer Clint Benedict should be listed 5th, 3rd and 3rd respectively. If the current Sens' ownership doesn't even believe they're really one franchise, I see no reason for Wikipedia to reflect it. If there are anon IPs who just cannot bring themselves to see fact over fantasy, perhaps the article can be semi-protected until they go away.   Ravenswing      21:53, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
I agree, if we have IP editors that cannot let this go then maybe it is time to consider permanent semi-protection to prevent this from happening again. Deadman137 (talk) 23:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
I second that (well, third that I guess). Masterhatch (talk) 00:13, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
To be clear, I am not arguing that the current Ottawa Senators team is a continuation of the team from the 1920s. I have no fantasy about that. 186.4.1.34 (talk) 01:45, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Now that you're edit warring? It's time you should be blocked. GoodDay (talk) 01:50, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
You keep inserting unsourced information. BRD requires you to obtain a consensus, not to force your way. 186.4.1.34 (talk) 02:49, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
At this point, I suspect the IP to be a signed-out block evading editor. GoodDay (talk) 10:27, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I've been reading up on you. To get out of a partial block or ban, didn't you promise not to do exactly the sort of thing you're doing on this article and this page? 186.4.1.34 (talk) 14:43, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I might disagree about the rivalry with Buffalo, but there is certainly a rivalry with Montreal. And it dates back to the 1880s. I am actually working on a draft article about Senators' rivalries. I'll take some of the cites I have and add here. I see there is a note from a few weeks ago. I think it's too early to remove the content. Alaney2k (talk) 18:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I removed the entire section, as it was added on Dec 30, 2024 by @Jrtrottier:, without consensus. GoodDay (talk) 18:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
@GoodDay:, why are you acting like a cop on this? What consensus is needed? There was a note put on the section just last month. I did not notice bcuz of Xmas. And I don't see any notes on this Talk page about this topic prior to me adding this note. Was it discussed -at all-??? If there is a dispute about the content, it's minor - it just need citations. It should be discussed on the Talk page AND be available on the page for people to READ. Alaney2k (talk) 19:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
@Sbaio: @GoodDay: @Jrtrottier: I put the proper notice on the section, linking to this talk page section. Let's discuss! Alaney2k (talk) 19:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
The WP:BURDEN is on you or the creator to add sources. Therefore, you should first add sources and then continue creating a page about Senators' rivalries. You also probably know that addition of large and possibly contentious content should firstly be discussed and not be restored if it is removed until it has been discussed. In addition, you should notify WP:NHL of this discussion, because you already know what that project does and there are editors that have access to certain sources. – sbaio 20:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
@Sbaio:, I used to be in that project and I left due to what I felt was a 'bully attitude' in that project. I used to get quite worked up trying to get consensus. Please remember that the original addition was done in good faith. A lot of people are upset with strict enforcement of WP policies. It works against new and less-accomplished editors' willingness to contribute. This is hockey, not contentious material in a person's biography. Alaney2k (talk) 16:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
I understand that addition was in good faith so there is absolutely no need to emphasize it. – sbaio 06:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
(shrugs) This being hockey doesn't mean that relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines are suspended for hockey articles, whether or not editors old OR new feel hard done by for it.   Ravenswing      07:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
I suggest accessing newspapers.com for the Ottawa Journal/Citizen, and for the Montreal Star/Gazette. You will find plenty of information on the early rivalry. Flibirigit (talk) 20:55, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
The edits Jrtrottier did are copy-edits of List of NHL rivalries without attrition and should have been dismissed immediately. As for whether they are needed here or not, considering the Ottawa-Buffalo rivalry does have some merit as a historic rivalry, it would be worth a small mention. The Montreal rivalry also has some backing as well. In all, the removal of content without sourcing is fine as they were copy-edits. Alaney2k, if you feel so obliged, you should rewrite the rivalries section and link the main article (List of NHL rivalries#Montreal Canadiens vs. Ottawa Senators). Otherwise, it's not content that necessarily matters too much. Conyo14 (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out. Well, if they are copy-edits, without attribution, then how are they in the List of NHL rivalries article? Alaney2k (talk) 23:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
TBH, we may have to draw the line, concerning what is & isn't a rivalry. The Canadiens vs the (current) Senators, just doesn't compare with (for example) Canadiens vs Bruins or Maple Leafs vs Red Wings. In today's 32-team NHL? less games are played between two clubs per season, compared to the past. GoodDay (talk) 21:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

While those rivalries are valid, it does not mean Ottawa-Montreal is nothing. Go to an Montreal vs Ottawa game at the Canadian Tire Centre and you will see what I mean. Fights break out, fans yelling over each other. I have not seen that in Ottawa-Buffalo games. There was a rivalry 20 years ago when the two teams were leaders in the division and met twice in the playoffs. And of course both are non-playoff teams. Alaney2k (talk)
I mean I won't say that the rivalry is worth a whole article, just a couple sentences. Conyo14 (talk) 21:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Looking at the NHL rivalry page. The Canadiens vs original Senators & the Canadiens vs current Senators history, shouldn't be interwined. Those are two distinct Ottawa Senators teams. GoodDay (talk) 21:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
The rivalry between the Senators and Canadiens is part of an overall sports rivalry between Ottawa and Montreal. Like CFL, and past amateur semi-pro of hockey and other sports teams. Alaney2k (talk) 23:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
This isn't the CFL though. The NHL considers the original & current Senators to be different franchises. Same with the original & current Jets. GoodDay (talk) 23:55, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
The 1880s Canadiens rivalry - not the same franchise. The Coyotes did not continue any of the Jets' rivalries or the Avalanche with Montreal. You would also have to explain playoff games/NHA games that are not part of this team's history. That content belongs more in an article/book about the historic rivalries in Eastern Canada (Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Hamilton, Quebec City). Llammakey (talk) 13:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
I agree, not the same franchise, etc. Games and series of the old Senators are irrelevant. However, when the current Senators met for the first time in recent history in the playoffs, it was an 'event', precisely because it was considered to be reigniting that old rivalry. As well, the very first game of the current Senators was against the Canadiens and the current rivalry started from there. The other factor is the large francophone population in Gatineau, which does attend the interlocking games, as fans of Montreal. This is exactly like the Battle of Ontario, where Toronto fans come to town to cheer for the Leafs. There are of course plenty of fans who are local to the Ottawa area who do cheer for out-of-town teams. But when Toronto or Montreal games are played in Ottawa, it is vastly different. Alaney2k (talk) 14:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Sorry, I agree with you about the modern Senators. The population was split between Leafs and Canadiens fans and when the Senators arrived, some remained aligned with their original teams, especially since the Canadiens farm team was in Hull during the Canadiens dynasty in the 1960s-1970s. For French Canadians from Western Quebec/Eastern Ontario who support Montreal, Ottawa is the location to see regular games and create the atmosphere you describe. Llammakey (talk) 14:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
In their 30+ years history. The Senators & the Canadiens haven't met very often in the playoffs. Not really a big rivalry. GoodDay (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
In their 30 years history, the Kings and Ducks have met once in the playoffs, but are still considered a rivalry. I wouldn't say playoffs is the best indicator, it should be based on significant coverage from sources Conyo14 (talk) 23:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
They're called rivals because they're both in California. Senators & Maple Leafs are both in Ontario. Canadiens & Nordiques both in Quebec. Anyways, I still (at least) would recommend deleting the Senators/Canadiens so called rivalry from this article. GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Rivalry isn't just something that happens by playing each other in the playoffs. It's a competition to be recognized for superiority, typically encompassing fans, players, and organizations. For historical and geographical reasons, there are a lot of lifelong Canadiens fans in the Ottawa region, on both sides of the Ottawa river. So Senators games are well attended by both local Habs fans and those who have travelled from Montreal, and Montreal is close enough to attract travelling Ottawa fans. The constant cross-pollination of discussion between the fan bases fuels the rivalry between them, encompassing regular season results. isaacl (talk) 07:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Ya know what? Do whatever yas want, both here, at the Montreal Canadiens page & other NHL pages. GoodDay (talk) 04:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@GoodDay:, your attitude is disappointing. Just because you are unaware of something, you should not assume that it doesn't exist. The original addition was in good faith. The only real contention was that it was unsourced. Alaney2k (talk) 16:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
I've thrown in the towel on this discussion (including at the Montreal Canadiens, where I reverted my deletion), for a different reason. GoodDay (talk) 16:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
@GoodDay: You should not get worked up. We -are- trying to work together, no? For the betterment of WP? Alaney2k (talk) 16:23, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Oh okay. I wasnt gonna even argue whether they need to be included, just whether they are or aren't rivalries. Conyo14 (talk) 05:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
I do not see the sourcing in the article to support the fact these rivalries actually exist, and they should be removed unless sources are found. SportingFlyer T·C 02:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Done Y Conyo14 (talk) 05:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
The Sabres one looks like WP:SYNTH. There's one article which calls it a "rivalry" without really going into detail about why people consider it a rivalry. For instance this article doesn't mention a rivalry at all. SportingFlyer T·C 05:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
That one was just to comment on the "citation needed". To be fair, this one was listed as historic in List of NHL rivalries, so I would be fine with removing this altogether. I'll keep searching Conyo14 (talk) 05:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Found one and placed in. Conyo14 (talk) 05:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
I just don't see evidence of a rivalry apart from a couple playoff matches in the late 2000s (decade). For instance they just played last week and no mention of rivalry. I'd remove it altogether. SportingFlyer T·C 05:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Done Y Conyo14 (talk) 05:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
I have removed the banner on the section. I believe we have resolved this topic. However, as always please put citation needed tags on the article as needed. Thank you everyone! Alaney2k (talk) 15:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)