# Talk:Women in The Lord of the Rings

A long article on female characters in LotR without mentioning Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in name? 95.222.225.90 (talk) 13:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid we're largely constrained to what the scholars have written about, and she's neither a central character nor their choice. Tom Shippey says little about the S.-B.s except that their surname is "a failure of tone", i.e. a bit of Oxford jokiness that sits ill and anachronistically with the rest of Middle-earth. If I see anything usable I'll mention it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:20, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Lobelia is finally in the prose. Scholarly articles are very helpful to build and sustain Wikipedia articles of course, but pretty much any secondary sources vetted as reliable by the Wikipedia community can be considered for inclusion. Chiswick Chap is correct however, that Lobelia isn’t widely discussed within the context of this topic, most of the critical discourse is generally about Galadriel, Arwen, Éowyn, and occasionally Shelob or Goldberry. My own observation and opinion is that Lobelia’s behavior is not actually gender-specific unlike many of Tolkien’s female characters (a male character could have had her role and lines and the reader would be none the wiser), which can be interpreted in a both positive and negative manner.  Haleth (talk) 02:46, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm awaiting Perilous and Fair: Women in the Works and Life of J. R. R. Tolkien which should lend some academic clout to the article. The essays cover everyone from Luthien to Arwen, though I'm not sure the hobbit-women get much of a look-in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:13, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Just got a copy myself. Still in the middle of it, very interesting read, it talks about much more beyond LOTR too. Haleth (talk) 05:33, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


### Women in The Lord of the Rings
Article (edit | visual edit | history) ·  Article talk (edit | history) ·  Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
 Result: Kept There is general consensus here that the article meets the GA criteria. Some points for improvement have been noted, but many go beyond what the GA criteria require. Aircorn (talk) 22:01, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
If this reassessment is vandalized again I will have no choice but to seek admin intervention. Anyone is welcome to participate in the discussion, but until it's clear that a consensus has been reached in the discussion on this page - or that no consensus has been reached after several weeks of open discussion - the Good Article Reassessment notice should remain in place. Please abide by Wikipedia policy and don't do any more sneaky edits. There is a record of every change and the admins can see who did what.Michael Martinez (talk) 13:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
The following are comments from the original reassessment discussion. I can only copy them here and don't have time to re-edit. The decision cannot be made within a couple of days of the proposal.Michael Martinez (talk) 13:46, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

No, it's clear admin intervention is required to deal with your disruptive edits, your incivility, and your refusal to listen to feedback from the community about your attitude. Within the first 2 days, four editors who have spoken out on the Women in The Lord of the Rings GAR talk page indicate that you do not appear to understand Wikipedia guidelines and policies afterall. ​If you disagree with the early close, you should have made an appeal, not unilaterally decide that you now have the right to reassess this article's GA status on your own after you realized that you have zero support from the community so far. Your time on Wikipedia will not end well for you if you insist on carrying on the way you are now.
@Hog Farm: @Carcharoth: Haleth (talk) 13:57, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Please confine your comments to the topic of discussion. This article proposal cannot be settled in the space of two days, especially without a chance for rebuttal discussion and clarification.Michael Martinez (talk) 14:00, 1 June 2021 (UTC)


#### Begin copied comments
#### Please reply below this line
It is difficult to find a comparable article to this one elsewhere on Wikipedia, although my time is limited. The problem with the current title is that it doesn't describe what the article is about. And given that the article is still in essay format it still needs revision. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to explain things from your (the article author) point of view. The Tolkien's background section is opinion and the fact you're citing things doesn't make it not-opinion. It's equivalent to saying "Tolkien was a man of his times". The author of the book provides very little insight into the roles of women in his fiction, and his personal letters were not intended to explain the story elements to a general audience.
A Wikipedia article should only provide a summary of what is relevant to its topic. Tolkien's comments could be mentioned in a shorter paragraph further down. However, the "A story about men for boys" section is also inappropriate (not least because the book was written as a response to the request from his publisher for "more about hobbits"). These opinion sections should be removed and their relevant points summarized in a shorter section.Michael Martinez (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm traveling today and can't contribute much to the discussion, but MM, there's already been a discussion at the GAR that concluded that the article is fine.  Wikipedia is a consensus project, even if you disagree with the consensus.  WP:DROPTHESTICK or you may find yourself topic banned. Hog Farm  Talk 16:13, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
I shouldn't have to remind you guys (especially you, Hog Farm, given that you're an admin - you should know better) that a Good Article reassessment can be initiated by any editor at any time who has a concern about the article's status. The points I raised were not discussed previously and they are legitimate. Your action on the reassessment was inappropriate, as is your threat to block me from the topic. Furthermore, you have failed to disclose your conflict of interest in this discussion in that you have a history of supporting Chiswick Chap (Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_soliciting_of_cliques ).Michael Martinez (talk) 04:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Looking at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Women in The Lord of the Rings/1, you've got five editors stating that there's no original research, I don't see any, and it doesn't seem like Haleth is seeing any if I'm reading their comments correctly, either.  There's a pretty clear consensus that this article (while maybe some prose work in places would help) doesn't contain serious sourcing issues.  I see above you object to the "story about men for boys" section, which is cited inline to Wood and Croft/Donovan, both of which appear to be scholarly RS.  In order to continue to state that that is problematic, you will need demonstrate through sources that Wood and Croft/Donovan are misused here, or provide high-quality RS to provide a balancing viewpoint here.  I'm also not threatening to block you myself, and I have no COI with Chiswick Chap - passing their GA reviews in the past does not create a clique, it creates a collegial project to assess articles for quality.  Nobody is trying to bury the GAR, it's just that there's gathering a fairly clear consensus against your arguments.  You're going to need to provide direct quotes to high-quality RS (ideally from multiple authors) in order to back up your case here, or this GAR is not going anywhere. Hog Farm  Talk 05:11, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Honesty is always the best policy. You do have a history with the Chiswick Chap and you should know fully well that the Reassessment was bulldozed before I could see or respond to the other editors' comments. Haleth has made it clear he called you in to do a hit job, and that he thinks you should be blocking me and perhaps dropping other punishments on me. I suggest you and I stand down. Your behavior was inappropriate but not egregious. In less than 2 years you've made a lot of contributions to Wikipedia. Don't get drawn into Haleth's personal vendettas. I will not comment further on this page.Michael Martinez (talk)


#### Procedural note
Individual GA reassessments, per the instructions, are only allowed if the article hasn't been reassessed before AND it is not expected to be controversial. This article does not meet either condition. (t · c) buidhe 14:06, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, however, the rapid removal of the previous reassessment discussion necessitates a slight change in procedure in order to keep the discussion going - preferably without the hostile reactions. This article does not meet the criteria for Good Article status. The purpose of the reassessment discussion is to improve the article, not to delete it or remove the Good Article status. As noted above, 2 days' discussion isn't sufficient for ending the proposal. Please respect the process from this point forward and stop trying to bury the proposal. Michael Martinez (talk) 15:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that the open hostility you and others expressed on the Good Article Nominations talk page (without linking to my profile so that I would not be notified) constitute a very disturbing act of omission. Instead of plotting to send me to arbitration or some other kind of review, either contribute to the discussion or let it proceed uninterrupted.Michael Martinez (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)


#### Move to community reassessment
As it is indeed the case, per buidhe above, that once an article has been reassessed only community reassessments are allowed thereafter, I have moved this page to the proper name for a second community reassessment from its unallowed individual reassessment placement and adjusted the boilerplate at the top of the page to reflect this move. The reassessment, which has not been posted to for over a month, is free to continue. It will ultimately be closed by an independent closer at some point in the future. I suggest that several weeks at least elapse before the closure is done to allow plenty of time for additional commentary on the reassessment now that it is visible to the community. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:00, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Keep per my comments made during the first reassessment. Tkbrett (✉) 00:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Keep - I'm yet to see any specific sources brought up to back up claimed issues. Hog Farm  Talk 20:18, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Keep - well, I'm not sure of the procedure here as it seems to me this second reassessment is entirely out of order. However, I've replied in detail to the points above, and I don't think any of the small points below are of any substance. If whoever decides to close this case wants action on some of the points below, please just ping me and let me know what may be needed; my view is that the article is in fact robustly cited, clearly written, certainly covers "the main points" as in the GA criteria, and is completely neutral. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2021 (UTC)


#### Suggested Edits
The introductory sentence represents an opinion and offers no supporting evidence: "The roles of women in The Lord of the Rings have often been assessed as insignificant, or important only in relation to male characters in a story about men for boys." The subsequent citation of Weronika Łaszkiewicz's paper doesn't substantiate the claim in the first sentence. Her paper doesn't cite many others and spends a fair amount of time discussing the portrayal of women in the movies (with which Tolkien himself had nothing to do). The second paragraph continues into opinion after citing the paper. The 3rd paragraph opens with an ambiguous "other commentators". The summary should be shortened to one paragraph that explains what is in the Wikipedia article (see my next point). Any reference to Łaszkiewicz's work should be confined to the main article itself since the Wikipedia article is not specifically about her work.
The "Tolkien's Background" section doesn't provide proper context. As I said previously, it provides a defense of Tolkien from an original POV. In fact, the article goes on to contrast the roles of women in the movies with the roles of women in the book, but this paragraph and the opening summary suggest that only Tolkien's fiction is being discussed. I suggest the section be expanded to include Peter Jackson's background and the paragraphs about Tolkien's influences be moved to their own section. Jackson's influences should also be addressed in a separate section.
The opening sentence in "Roles for women" says the story "has repeatedly been discussed as being a story about men for boys" but the two citations provided only rebut inspecific accusers. I suggest the first sentence be omitted and a couple of other citations be added after the Catherine Stimpson quote. Patridge and O'Connor would provide examples and get the point across that more than 1 critic has accused Tolkien of chauvinism.
I suggest the title of this section be changed to "Negative criticism of roles for women" or something similar. A follow up section titled "Positive criticism of roles for women" would be appropriate. Show the reader the two points of view fairly.
The title "The Powerful Women" seems a bit over the top. I suggest the title be changed to reflect the importance of these women to the literary plot.
The contrasting of the movie portrayals to the literary portrayals seems inadequate. It only begins with Rosie. Having been interviewed about Galadriel's role in the story by the media, I know there was popular interest and debate in her portrayal in the media. The controversy is completely overlooked (although my interview was only in connection with the 'Hobbit' movies).
I don't object to the article and don't feel it should be deleted. That was certainly never my proposal. But the arguments I've seen around the role of women in the book are poorly represented here. I think there should be a fair amount of more recent media (non-scholarly) discussion of the Tolkien and Jackson's portrayal of women. There was a huge controversy about the proposed rewriting and expansion of Arwen's role for the movies at the time. There seems no mention of that. Much more work should be done to improve the article. Michael Martinez (talk) 13:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)