# Talk:The Shire

Shippey's comparison chart claims "Hobbits originated in the Angle between the Hoarwell and the Loudwater
(in what became Lothlórien)".
The stuff about Hoarwell and Loudwater is correct, but not the stuff in parentheses.
Lothlórien is located on the other side of the Misty Mountains. Someone either misunderstood this or confused Lothlórien with Imladris, which is close to the Angle and in fact located upon the Loudwater.Magnum482 (talk) 13:40, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Removed parenthesis. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:42, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
This still seems confused. The hobbits originated on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains, whereas the Angle is on the western side.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:45, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Well, recall that the Germanic peoples of modern Scandinavia and Germany originated from peoples from further east. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:27, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

There is an error in the language diagram - Khuzdul was not translated as Old Norse.
The rare bits of Khuzdul in LoTR are not translated.  The "outward" names of the Dwarves, such as Thorin, Balin etc. were indeed from Old Norse, but this is because Old Norse was used by Tolkien to represent the human languages of the areas where the Dwarves originally lived  Hence the language of the Dwarves' "outward" names are in a language related to that of the Rohirrim, as Old English is related to Old Norse.
The Dwarves' real Khuzdul names, Tolkien said, they reveal to no non-Dwarves, and do not even inscribe them on their tombs.  Nor did they teach Khuzdul to non-Dwarves and rarely even wrote in it (Balin's tomb in Moria is a rare example, but even there the "outward" names Balin and Fundin are used, rather than their real Khuzdul names)
As Khuzdul was invented by Aulë and unlike virtually every other language in Middle Earth not ultimately derived from Elvish, it would make no sense for Tolkien to use a language related to English for it.  From what else he wrote, it's likely that if he had 'translated' it he'd have used Hebrew.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.197.219 (talk) 10:04, 11 November 2021 (UTC) 

"Hobbiton redirects here", but that town(?) is not described at all here! Just in relation to the locations of other places. Is Hobbiton the capital? What else?? 47.69.67.116 (talk) 07:37, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

The redirect correctly points here, but I've now made it point directly to where Hobbiton is described. Hobbiton is just a small town near the middle of the Shire, notable for being the home of the Bagginses. The capital is Michel Delving. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

Hobbit origins map.svg
Location The Shire 3019 TA.svg
Sketch Map of The Shire.svg
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:17, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if this fictional region hasn't become THE primary meaning of shire in modern English, necessicating some renaming of our articles? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Not in the UK, at least, where "shire" is still in wide use; "The shire" on the other hand certainly only means Tolkien's. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:22, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


### Staffordshire, Shropshire etc
This area well settled to be part of the inspiration, but is not covered in the article.  There are invisible comments saying don't add this material (or citations) but the article is not balanced on these points.  It's a bit strange to freeze the article in an inaccurate way, so I'm reluctant to do more, but I'm uncomfortable about it the article notcovering well settled things that are not "New claims" simply because nobody said it on here to this point.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shirtquire (talk • contribs) 19:58, 22 October 2023 (UTC) 

Shirtquire: Many thanks for sharing your views. The article is "settled" insofar as it is fully-cited, has been edited by many hands over a long period, is based on multiple reliable sources, and has passed a formal review. That does not mean it's perfect, whatever that would be. However, that does not justify either adding sources to the lead, nor of adding sources or claims which are not reliably established themselves. For instance, you added citations to the Birmingham Mail and to The Guardian, both of which can often be relied upon; but in this case, neither of them actually mentioned The Shire at all! The fact that someone has asserted that Tolkien lived near the Wrekin during his military training in the first world war, and was possibly influenced by it, and perhaps included a description of some hill in Middle-earth (Weathertop perhaps? Bree-hill? the articles do not say), do nothing to connect any part of The Shire to The Wrekin, so we cannot use those sources to make any such claim. We have exactly no evidence that The Shire is based on The Wrekin or other hills in Shropshire. Or Staffordshire, for that matter.
Secondly, any new claims need to be made in the main text, the article body, not the top/summary/lead section, which does not have citations in it because it is only a summary of the rest of the article. I hope this helps you to see that there is some method in the madness. All the best (and please remember to sign your posts using ~~~~), Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:07, 22 October 2023 (UTC)