# Talk:The Carpenters

Just wanted to say I've seen a television show (I think it was "Rock Legends" on AXS TV) and it was reported that Richard was very adamant about not being called "The" Carpenters, and went to lengths to make sure they were called "Carpenters", however I can not find a reliable source to support this.  - Mlpearc (open channel) 16:59, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

It's in Coleman and Schmidt's biographies. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:42, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
All official releases were credited as Carpenters, without the "The". This can easily be verified by looking at the releases themselves at https://www.discogs.com/artist/170357-Carpenters Fork me (talk) 13:54, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Should this page be renamed then? /PatrikN (talk) 19:58, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
There have been a couple of move requests in the talk page archives. I think there's no consensus between one or the other, so best leave it. Mind you, have you seen what went on with Sega Mega Genesis Drive? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:00, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Fine, the Wikipedia standard is also to use the most common name. In the Danish Wikipedia, there is a good note about this as the second sentence in the article. I think it could be used here too, so I'll translate and add it.
Mega Drive - Yeah, I'll had one, what about that article? :-) /PatrikN (talk) 20:14, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
There's no need, it's already mentioned in the article, with a reliable source. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I couldn't find it. Please tell me where? I also thinks it worth being a lead info, which this topic and previous moves indicates. /PatrikN (talk) 20:29, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
The duo were called "carpenters", an article should reflect that and not perpetuate incorrect usage. It's like having a page entitle The Kiss,
Now, if the page were to be about the brother and sister commonly known as the carpenters, and refer to the fact that they formed a band called Carpenters that could be deemed correct usage. but the page would need to be separated, with personal history in one and recording and signing information, etc, in another. Slightlyinvisible (talk) 23:06, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Have you ever considered dropping the stick and backing away from the horse carcass? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 23:16, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Where Wikipedia is provably wrong about something (see above) the "stick" should not be dropped. I note the article even currently begins with "The Carpenters...", only bolding the second word! 2A00:23C5:FE0B:700:4165:AE25:5484:AC9E (talk) 00:46, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with others here that this article is mistitled. The name of the group was "Carpenters", not "The Carpenters", and the page needs to be moved. It should be moved from "The_Carpenters" -> "Carpenters_(band)", or perhaps "Carpenters_(musical_group)". This is exactly what the page for the famous band "Eagles" is. People often mistakenly refer to Eagles as "The Eagles", even though the band's name is actually just "Eagles". Wikipedia has the page for Eagles correct ("Eagles_(band)"), but not for Carpenters. YouarelovedSOmuch (talk) 01:22, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

To add, everything, from Richard Carpenter's website, to the official Carpenters YouTube channel, to all of their albums, etc., all credit the group as "Carpenters", not "The Carpenters". YouarelovedSOmuch (talk) 21:38, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
I agree that the article should be moved to "Carpenters (band)". ili (talk) 17:39, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
I agree that the article should be changed to "Carpenters" on the same principle as the "Eagles" article and some similarly named music acts. I'm not sure that a duo should ever be called a "band" however. Possibly a "group" but even that doesn't seem quite right for a duo. I think, for example, we could refer to "the Carpenters and their band" (the "band" being their supporting musicians). In a sentence, however, the correct grammar is "The Carpenters" at the beginning of a sentence and (usually) "the Carpenters" mid-sentence. Yahboo (talk) 17:20, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
If you want to change the article title, please go to Requested moves and file a request. Replying to a comment from a year ago is not going to accomplish much. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 07:59, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
Reading back through the archives, this has been discussed here, here, here, here, here, and here. The last two links are RM discussions which I encourage discussion participants to review, both of which closed without consensus to move the page name, despite the seemingly overwhelming agreement in the earlier linked discussions. So it seems when editors are discussing on the talk page there is consensus to change the name to "Carpenters," but during actual RM discussions consensus supports "The Carpenters." I don't know if another RM or perhaps RFC would be helpful, but maybe we should try and depending on the result put in a name change moratorium. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:21, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I think what's more likely is that every now and again a brand new editor adds their opinion to a long-dead thread, but when it comes to a formal RM with more experienced editors, consensus swings back the other day. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)


### Resurecting THE move
If anyone is interested in resurecting the move, it doesn't look like there is any real evidence against it other than, "I always called them the Carpenters". The evidence has not been presented widely. However, A look at the latest large news organizations indicate that "Carpenters" is the proper name, and when "the" is used to make the sentence read better, it is used in lowercase indicating that it isn't part of the name. See this search: https://news.google.com/search?q=%22carpenters%22%20Karen%20AND%20Richard&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen 
Additionally, the only exceptions I saw in reviewing the first 10-20 hits were from small news sources with (likely) little editorial control over the content. We should make a list here of the articles that have been properly researched and are sources which are clearly Verifiable and Reliable. For example here are a few:

Billboard magazine clearly recognizes the name of the band as only "Carpenters" pointing out that they have 8 of the 50 top hits from the A&M label. See A&M Records’ 50 Biggest Hits on the Billboard Hot 100 While it Was Owned by Herb Alpert & Jerry Moss. Frankly this should be definitive but we probably need more.
Rolling Stone is also careful to call them "Carpenters" and use the lower case "the". Richard Carpenter Still Thinks the Carpenters’ Seventies Hits Are Underrated
The New York Times article about Karen's death from 1983 clearly only uses lowercase "the" as the article is not part of the band name https://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/05/obituaries/karen-carpenter-32-is-dead-singer-teamed-with-brother.html Another definitive source that should be enough by itself.
Also consistent in a 1991 article RECORDINGS VIEW; Revisionist Thinking On the Carpenters and NYT should know since "The New York Times" insist on using "The" as part of their name.
Washington Post also is careful to use "the" and omit it altogether such as "Folks thought it was Dennis Wilson playing drums on those Beach Boys hits, Karen Carpenter on those Carpenter classics, Micky Dolenz on those Monkees melodies." https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/style/1997/07/13/the-beatmaster/8e9e6385-2aee-4632-bc43-2ec02f87da49/
The new biography intentionally omits "the" Carpenters: The Musical Legacy
The guardian reporting on the new biography "the" only ‘She was no submissive puppet’: how I discovered the real Karen Carpenter’s determination and drive
Yahoo entertainment also uses lowercase Karen Carpenter had a 'quest for perfection' in her music that 'carried over in her life,' says biographer
WTOP News Yesterday Once More: Young TikTok talent re-imagines Carpenters 1970s Top 40 classics
The Downey Patriot (town where Carpenters lived starting in 63 and from which they launched their career) Downey to consider Furman Park plaque to honor Carpenters
Anyway - there seems to be pretty clear evidence that Carpenters is the correct name for the group. We just need to all active on the Wiki for a few weeks to respond to those that oppose any RM. --Trödel 01:15, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I recommend that you initiate a formal Move Request. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 23:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
I plan to, but if it's just me against the RM community, it is pretty clear how that will go down. I was hopeful some others who actually care about this article would respond and we could bring the issue to the community together. --Trödel 23:18, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Adding another source to counter the past opposition. The Hollywood Walk of Fame acknowledges the name on the star is wrong and not the official name. https://walkoffame.com/the-carpenters/ (note also that the picture of the actual star for them is listed as "coming soon") --Trödel 23:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
I can't fathom why the official name of this page is "The Carpenters". Even Yahoo calls them "Carpenters." It just makes wikipedia look old and stubborn for leaving it this way, and the fact that people won't let the name be changed shows the site's weakness and why no one trusts it. 184.55.82.40 (talk) 20:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Edit to again seek Wikipedians who care about this article to be prepared to take this to RM and defend the move to the proper name. --Trödel 19:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

picture The Carpenters wiht Nixon in the White House
why only the part of the picture with Karen and Richard ?
why is the part with Richard Nixon cropped ?
--Über-Blick (talk) 00:32, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Just a heads up. Announced today on AP News, “Carpenters: The Musical Legacy” (Princeton University Press), co-written by Richard Carpenter, along with Associated Press journalist Mike Cidoni Lennox and Chris May. Might be a useful source of content for WP articles Richard Carpenter (musician) and The Carpenters because the AP article covers the subject in some depth (not just a passing mention). Platonk (talk) 15:51, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

In my view it is incorrect to refer to the Carpenters as a "group" (and certainly not as a "band") in the way that these terms are commonly understood. It seems logical and sensible that a "group" or "band" needs to consist of at least three members. I suggest, therefore, that they should be consistently referred to as a "duo" in the article and that other uses of "group" be changed to "they" and "their" etc. What are other editors views on this matter? Afterwriting (talk) 08:06, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

I agree with this and have edited the article accordingly. They should only be called a duo in the article (even if they were considered a group for the purposes of awards). We would not call two people who are together "a group of people" or a "band of people". Quizical (talk) 02:42, 9 March 2025 (UTC)