# Talk:Soup

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 January 2025 and 30 April 2025. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): WANXUANHU (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Micaa473.
— Assignment last updated by Natmayne (talk) 13:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

The LEAD section says: Originally "sops" referred to pieces of bread covered with savoury liquid; gradually the term "soup" was transferred to the liquid itself.  However, this is unreferenced, and "sop" is not mentioned [Added: defined again as a precursor of "soup"].  Either this should be referenced and mentioned in the "Name" section, or it should be modified in the Lead to summarise the "Name" section. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:35, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Tim riley: "Sop" is actually mentioned and implicitly defined in the biblical quote, but yes, it'd be better if this were made explicit. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:16, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
This has now been actioned. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:29, 1 July 2025 (UTC)
Looks good. Thanks, Tim. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:29, 1 July 2025 (UTC)
User:Chiswick Chap and User:Tim riley, this discussion should not be transcribed to the GA page.  How do we turn that off for all the Talk page items after the GA discussion?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:33, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

I suspect you clicked on the GA item on the talk page and were automatically taken to the subpage. Fixed now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:38, 1 July 2025 (UTC)


### Soup
The article has just been promoted to GA after a most perceptive and helpful review by Chiswick Chap. I am now wondering about a crack at FAC. I'm a bit worried that an overview article like this cannot meet FA criterion 1b, comprehensiveness, as clearly it doesn't and can't cover every known soup, but does it meet the standard "it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context"? Is it adequately global in its coverage? Are there any glaring omissions? All contributions grateful received. – Tim riley talk 12:59, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Just one thing Tim, I wondered on the omission of Chicken soup. Not so much the simple recipe, but as a cultural staple. Ashkenazi—"Jewish Penicillin"—traditionally the first meal of Passover, but not only Jewish; in the 2nd century BC the Chinese called it "yang food", or warmning; while ~400 years later in Ancient Greece Galen prescribed chicken soup as a medicine. Also Chicken Soup with Barley. It has several symbolic meanings, associated with overcoming hardship and misfortune. Perhaps worth a mention. Rather a tasty article all around! —Fortuna, imperatrix 17:08, 1 July 2025 (UTC)
Excellent! Thank you, FIM. I'll work on this tomorrow. Tim riley talk 17:11, 1 July 2025 (UTC)
Which reminds me, Groucho Marx's Duck Soup is a shoo-in for the culture section, which evidently includes plays and films as well as books! Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:35, 2 July 2025 (UTC)
Fortuna imperatrix mundi, Chiswick Chap – all attended to. Many thanks for excellent suggestions. Tim riley talk 09:51, 2 July 2025 (UTC)


#### Ssilvers comments
Name
I would delete the sentence "Similar terms include the Italian zuppa, the German Suppe, the Danish suppe, the Russian суп (pronounced "soup"), the Spanish sopa and the Polish zupa."  As the article explains elsewhere, nearly every culture and language has one or many terms for soup. The Etymology discussion just below covers some of the same territory and is more helpful than the unsurprising statement that European languages have terms similar to the English word.
The OCF has a litany of this sort, and I think it as well to follow its lead. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
Note 1 discusses the idea that it was essential that bread be served with soup, but I would add to the text itself something along the lines that, at least in many (or most if your sources so state) cultures, countries, restaurants and families, bread is still served with soup.
I think "most" would be wrong: in many countries rice, not bread, is the ubiquitous carbohydrate. "Many" is closer to the mark I think, but I cannot find a citation for saying that where bread is the main staple it usually accompanies soup (though I am quite sure that is true). Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
Ancient times....
I would delete "In 1988" from the first sentence, since the year of publication does not seem important.
It is there to make it clear that despite being immediately below the words "ancient times", Fisher was a modern writer. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
The article names several writers. I would remove the non-notable ones but keep the blue-linked ones. -- The author names are, of course, in the footnotes.
I think the authors' names help the prose along and puts their observations in context. The OCF article – my starting point for my revision – name checks writers who have no WP article. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
"After the fall of the Roman Empire soups continued to feature in European and Arab cuisines."  This implies that it did not feature in other places, but it must have done.
Redrawn. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
The section is Europe-centric.  I know this is hard to solve because of the sources readily available to us.  Odarte mentions, in the Introduction his African cookbook (p. 13): "It was quite a challenge for us to adapt oral African recipes into [written ones that Europeans and Americans could prepare]. ... [Africans] use homemade measuring devices like a ladle, [a particular bird's egg shell] or a fistful." He indicates that when he began his research, he could not find traditional African cookbooks anywhere, but was able to extract recipes from African embassies, some African governmental organizations, and tribal families all over the continent. Therefore it would be hard to date any of the recipes' exact origin (unless mentioned in the diaries of foreign explorers?), but it is hard to imagine that Africans were not making soups during all eras.  I imagine that you can find more about soups in ancient to early modern Asian texts, or Asian culinary histories, but they may be hard for an English-speaker to access.
Quite so. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
Portable, tinned...
Can the text make it more explicit that tinning and drying soup makes it not only easy to store, but also easy to market, transport, and quick to prepare?
Happy to do so. Have you got a suitable citation? Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
Here's one.  Another. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
Won't do, alas. They don't mention dried soups at all (and either would possibly be challenged at FAC for not being a reliable source.) Tim riley talk 06:57, 5 July 2025 (UTC)
The Introduction to A Complete Course in Canning and Related Processes (Fourteenth Edition), Volume 3 (2014) states: "The UK’s Royal Society ... in September 2012, named the tinplated food can as one of the three most significant inventions in the history of food and drink (after the refrigerator and pasteurised milk) ... making nutritious foods readily available and easily transportable. ... Canned foods have a long shelf life (usually at least 2 years). ... Cans are economically efficient." It also mentions convenience and ease of preparation of canned foods. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:13, 5 July 2025 (UTC)
But still doesn't mention dried soups, as you would like. Tim riley talk 22:20, 5 July 2025 (UTC)
Let's focus on tinned for starters.  You already explain that tinned soups were an important development, but this explains "why". -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:31, 5 July 2025 (UTC)
You have a note about how automation drove down the cost of soup, which I think is worth mentioning in the main text.
I thought about this when writing, but it's a matter of balance. This is already the longest of the three paragraphs of the section (which are respectively 114, 138 and 120 words long) and I concluded that making the middle one 164 words would unbalance things. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
In literature.  We should mention the recurring Soup Nazi character from the long-running TV series Seinfeld. "The 10 best fictional chefs", The Guardian.
I'd never heard of this series or its character. Happy to add to the concluding section, and will do. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
Lead
The lead section is a little thin for this substantial article. Here are a few suggestions:

I agree the lead is thinnish and will gladly adopt your suggested additions. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
"Soups have been made since prehistoric times, and have evolved over the centuries" -- I would change "evolved" to "proliferated" or some word that indicates not only that they developed qualitatively but also spread geographically from early on.
"Evolved" is the word used in the source, and I'm inclined to stick with it. If my memory of the various sources is correct soups seem to have been invented pretty much simultaneously at various points of the globe. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
"have been served at the grandest of banquets *as well as* in the poorest peasant homes."  We can save a little space with the shorter "and" instead of "as well as".
See above: I'm not concerned about trimming further here. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
After that sentence, I would add: "Soups have been the primary source of food for poor people in many places, and" in times of hardship...
Good. Redrawn.
In the last paragraph: Chicken soups *and legume soups* are known round the world...  I'd add "and legume soups", as I think your sources will indicate that peas, beans and/or lentils have a place in every cuisine.
OK. Done. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
At the end I would add: Soup is frequently mentioned or portrayed in literature, drama, television and film.  Maybe also add this EL: http://soupsong.com/imovies.html
--Ssilvers (talk) 18:45, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

I'll redraw. Thank you for these comments and for much-valued off-wiki encouragement. Tim riley talk 07:09, 4 July 2025 (UTC)


#### Comments by Dudley
"According to The Oxford Companion to Food, "soup" is the main generic term for liquid savoury dishes; others include broth, bisque, consommé, potage and many more." "generic" sounds odd to me. Would anyone regard consommé and potage as synonyms?
"Originally "sops" referred to pieces of bread covered with savoury liquid; gradually the term "soup" was transferred to the liquid itself." This is misleading as it wrongly implies that "sop" is no long used for bread dunked in liquid.
Similar words for soup in Russian etc. The comment may belong in the etymology discussion as the languages all have the same Indo-European origin.
"other terms embraced by "soup" include". I am not sure what this means but it sounds painful.
Etymology. See comment above on sop.
Prehistory. Checking this showed that you are guilty of two of my pet hates. I looked at the bibliography to see whether you cite Speth's article, and found you have put it in columns. In my opinion it is much better as a simple list so that you do not have to search up and down the columns to find an author. I found that Speth is not listed but on further checking I found that it is in the references but not in the bibliography, another trap for readers.
"The making of soup or something akin has been dated by some writers back to the Upper Palaeolithic (between 50,000 and 12,000 years ago)." This is not what the author says. He does not mention soup, only boiling. He says that an Upper Paleolithic origin is generally accepted and argues for an earlier date. You cite "a study by the academic Garritt C. Van Dyk,". This is not a study, but a comment piece citing Speth, who does not mention soup, as I said above. I would delete the whole Prehistory sub-section as nothing is known. You could keep the last sentence about Egypt and China and move it to the next sub-section, using the sources Van Dyk cites, which make clear that the reference is to the Chinese and Egyptian within the last 5000 years, not to ancient pre-history.
"In 1988 the food writer M. F. K. Fisher commented, "It is impossible to think of any good meal, no matter how plain or elegant, without soup or bread in it. It is almost as hard to find any recorded menu, ancient or modern, without one or both"." No change needed, but that is rubbish. In my opinion, soup is fine if there is nothing better on the menu, and bread is great for breakfast and lunch, not for an evening meal.
" During the Great Depression, Al Capone established and sponsored a soup-kitchen in Chicago." I would personally leave this out as it puts propaganda on the same level as genuine charity (maybe humourously?), but it is a matter of opinion.
More to follow. Not quite up to your usual very high standard in my opinion, but it is early days. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:24, 6 July 2025 (UTC)
Thank you, Dudley! Your final comment rather bears out the worry I expressed in the introductory spiel, above. I think perhaps I'll shelve any thought of going to FAC and rest on my laurels at GA. But I'll leave the peer review open for now, and will welcome any further points you may like to make and I'll wade into the lot. Tim riley talk 17:20, 6 July 2025 (UTC)
East section. I would delete comparisons with the west as the comments really belong in the relevant sections, and some comments are confusing. Reading "In China and Japan, soup came to have a different place in meals." I had to double take to work out whether you are comparing China with Japan or both with the west. "As in the west, there was a distinction between thick and thin soups, but the latter would often be treated as a beverage". This is again complicated. I assume you mean that thin soups are a beverage in Asia but not in the west, but it is not clear.
"Ramen, a noodle soup, popular in Japan and latterly internationally, is documented only from the second half of the nineteenth century." This does not seem to follow on from the previous sentence and maybe belongs in the next paragraph.
"Pho is a Vietnamese soup, usually made from beef stock and spices with noodles and thinly sliced beef or chicken added" I would have a comma after "spices".
Faeroe Islands. This is a dated spelling. Faroe is much more common now.
No English soup! Shame on you.
"Arab shorba typically contains meat and oats;" Arabia is in Asia, not Africa.
You jump around geographically in the Africa section. Maybe a paragaph on west Africa and another on the rest of the continent.
""locals eat steaming bowls on even the hottest days". No change needed, but I once heard an interviewer asking a man in Basra in Iraq what they did when the temperature went over 50 degrees. He said that they sit in the shade and drink sweet tea. The interviewer was amazed that they wanted a hot drink.
"Davidson remarks favourably on the Australian wallabi-tail soup." A bit clumsy. Why not just "praises"?
"by this I mean rich dinners" What are rich dinners? Formal dinners for rich people?
I am not clear about the distinction between regional soups and the soups of different countries in modern times. Many of the soups you put in the regional section appear ones to be popular today and some in the modern section are ancient.
Under 'Portable, tinned and dried soups', maybe mention freeze-dried and dehydrated soups consumed on the space station.
I think this article is not far off FA. The main problem is that regional soups are sometimes in the regional section and sometimes in the modern section. Does it make sense to have a separate regional section as all (or almost all) soups are regional? Dudley Miles (talk) 15:10, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
Dudley, thank you for your detailed and thoughtful comments. I think I'll close the peer review and let the article lie fallow for a bit while I reflect on your comments. One can sometimes get too close to one's text, don't you find? After a break I'll come back to the article with, I hope, fresh eyes. Tim riley talk 19:44, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

I saw a request on wikiproject food to help add a more global perspective to the article, and I think something can be added about China to the Ancient times section. Soup is mentioned in the Huangdi Neijing, a medicinal text attributed to the mythical Yellow Emperor. The reference to soup is short, but there's something there. I was thinking of including the following line:
The Huangdi Neijing, a Chinese medicinal text, describes the preparation of soups and clear liquids by steaming rice, and recommends soups as medicine.
The original date of the Huangdi Neijing is unknown, though the version we know today was compiled in 762. This comes from the translation by Ilza Veith. I don't have anything about soup as yang food as mentioned in an earlier comment. Truthnope (talk) 22:09, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

Please do. Don't worry about WP:CITEVAR: I'll make the necessary adjustments. Tim riley talk 18:16, 30 July 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for the response, I put it in the Ancient Times section. Truthnope (talk) 17:08, 31 July 2025 (UTC)
Splendid! Thank you! Tim riley talk 17:24, 31 July 2025 (UTC)

49.182.109.30 (talk) 01:48, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

 Done Day Creature (talk) 02:22, 16 October 2025 (UTC)