# Talk:Sorraia

The Sorraia horse has no known history before the 1920's. These horses were purchased off of farms near the rivers Sor and Raia. There were 7 founding mares and 4 stallions. One of the founding stallions was an imported Argentine Criollo named Tata dios Cardal and was bred by none other than Emilio Solanet( http://www.aicsorraia.fc.ul.pt/origem_modelo.htm ). Besides this obvious proof that the Sorraia is not an ancient horse breed, the sheer fact that we know nothing of the Sorraia before the 1920's and the fact that Spain and Portugal have had hundreds of years of crossbreeding proves that the Sorraia is just another modern breed. Not to mention the obvious crossbreeding exhibited in their conformation as well as temperament. I discovered through speaking with Portuguese people on message boards the the typical temperament of a Sorraia is aggressive and stubborn which is not a Spanish or Portuguese temperament. If it were, then the Iberian horse in general would not have become so famous as being an excellent and obedient riding horse. 
From what I had read of them, saying that the Sorraia is ancient is the same thing as saying a group of American Mustangs whom has no history, but coming in the dun coloration is somehow ancient and now a founding parent of other horse breeds. When I read Dr. d' Andrades writings on the Sorraia (from which most other people have gotten their claims about the Sorraia save those experts who say they are modern) it became clear that his conclusions about them came not from facts, but from assumptions and opinions. In other words, nothing objective or factual. It is the same thing as saying that a painting you think looks like a bat and someone else thinks it looks like a butterfly. Who knows what the foundation of the Sorraia is as we have no history of them. I believe they should be appreciated as a modern Portuguese breed (which is what they are unless new information can be dug up about them), not being made into an ancient breed with no proof. 
As far as the mtDNA found in Spanish Mustangs that are "Sorraia"; due to the lack of history and proof that the Sorraia is modern, it is my belief that this proves that the ancestor of the Sorraia and the Spanish horses in the Americas was brought over and thus their mtDNA was passed on. This is the only logical conclusion that can be made in the case of the Sorraia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanishsulphurs (talk • contribs) 03:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC) 

Hello Spanishsulphurs and thank you for your comments. However, you must provide sources to back up these assertions, otherwise they are simply your opinion. I don't read Spanish, so I cannot evaluate the link that you provided. However, if you could provide a reliable source (preferably in English) that states that one of the founding stallions was Criollo, then we would be happy to add that information to the article. The current state of the article is one that has been carefully worked out by several dedicated articles, and is currently sourced to only the highest quality sources.
Also, I moved your comments on the Spanish Sulpher horse over to the Colonial Spanish Horse article, as that is the place where the information seemed to be the most relevant. Please feel free to create a seperate article for the Spanish Sulpher horse, or add information to the Colonial Spanish horse article. However, please also be aware of the Wikipedia policy against conflict of interest (as suggested by your username), as well as the policies on verifiability, reliable sources and notability. Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 02:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi Dana,  A Sorraia-type Criollo from Argentina was added by Ruy d'Andrade to his Sorraia herd in 1948, ten years after the first founders were gathered to save this indigenous primitive horse from extinction.  This information is listed in the studbook, in Portuguese. Ref; Oom, d'Andrade, Costa-Ferreira (2004). "Stud Book da Raca Sorraia"  Artes Graficas, Alpiarça ISBN 972-8471-90-4  I believe this info is also listed on the official Sorraia website in Portugal, http://www.aicsorraia.fc.ul.pt/origem_modelo.htm  Selona (talk)

Very interesting reference about Criollo.
I find it very interesting how people ask for evidences but on their interventions don´t use any.
«The Sorraia horse has no known history before the 1920's....the sheer fact that we know nothing of the Sorraia before the 1920's»
Of course not, how would you expect to have « known history» about a wild horse that had no domestic breed history?
«These horses were purchased off of farms near the rivers Sor and Raia. There were 7 founding mares and 4 stallions.
One of the founding stallions was an imported Argentine Criollo named Tata dios Cardal and was bred by none other than Emilio Solanet( http://www.aicsorraia.fc.ul.pt/origem_modelo.htm ). Besides this obvious proof that the Sorraia is not an ancient horse breed, the sheer fact that we know nothing of the Sorraia before the 1920's and the fact that Spain and Portugal have had hundreds of years of crossbreeding proves that the Sorraia is just another modern breed.»
According to the Sorraia page ( http://www.sorraia.org/folheto.htm), that´s not the case.
Fenotipically and genotypically, this is a not modern breed, but more likely a primitive wild horse.
«I discovered through speaking with Portuguese people on message boards the the typical temperament of a Sorraia is aggressive and stubborn which is not a Spanish or Portuguese temperament. If it were, then the Iberian horse in general would not have become so famous as being an excellent and obedient riding horse.»
Instead of more stories of hearsay, I would just comment that episode, by just describing it as a normal behavior for a wild horse. It´s nice to know that Sorraia is acting like one!
«From what I had read of them, saying that the Sorraia is ancient is the same thing as saying a group of American Mustangs whom has no history, but coming in the dun coloration is somehow ancient and now a founding parent of other horse breeds.»
I´m sure that it wasn´t an ordinary dun colored horse that was a regarded as a Sorraia/Zebro.
Check again the informations provided on Sorraia folheto (page).
« When I read Dr. d' Andrades writings on the Sorraia (from which most other people have gotten their claims about the Sorraia save those experts who say they are modern) it became clear that his conclusions about them came not from facts, but from assumptions and opinions. In other words, nothing objective or factual. It is the same thing as saying that a painting you think looks like a bat and someone else thinks it looks like a butterfly.»

The only thing that seems clear for me  is that sorraias/zebros are directly related to indigenous and primitive wild horses from South Portugal ( and possibly Spain too) called zebros. This the more plausible explanation. Again check Sorraia Folheto/page.
Dr Andrade had a great experience with horses and he does certainly understand more about his subject than certain people.
Luckily, his Sorraia seem to be pretty CONSISTENT in morphology and genetics with wild primitive horses and not with normal modern domestic breeds.
«I believe they should be appreciated as a modern Portuguese breed (which is what they are unless new information can be dug up about them), not being made into an ancient breed with no proof.»
Sorraia is not a modern Portuguese breed ( though some wild horses were domesticated and used  for that purpose) and truly won´t ever be one, because there´s an intention to give a refuge to them in the  Zebro Valley Natural Reserve ( an ancient living place for this wild horse specie) and because their genotype and fenotype isn´t that of a modern domestic breed. Well, things seem to be pretty consistent for me, though I would certaintly  appreciate to get more informations about this case. Not much about questioning how wild, ancient and primitive they are ( that´s pretty obvious), but more about saving them in the near future.
Maybe some people who are against the reality about this wild horse, only have been a bit reluctant to accept facts ( while can´t produce any tangible contrasting evidence) because they feel envy about it.
It´s a pity because maybe could be this wild horse who could give a big boost on the Tarpan reconstruction.
Regarding the local iberian tarpan form ( Zebro) identity, everything points out to Sorraia as being the number one candidate.
Regards  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.174.37.213 (talk) 03:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 

Hello, and thank you for your comments. However, I can't determine from them if there is something that you would like changed in the article or if you are simply commenting. Could you please be more clear and concise? Thank you, Dana boomer (talk) 11:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I was quoting and responding to some points presented here. If you want to make some changes according to my opinion and respective sources you are free to do it. In fact, I think that some points presented by me  would be beneficial to your page. Thank you  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.174.37.199 (talk) 20:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Except that you have mixed quotes, opinion and sources together in a way that is almost unreadable - or at least I certainly can't figure it out. It seems that you have issues with some of the wild/feral/domestic wording in the article, but I'm not sure how you want them changed or what your sources are. Perhaps rewrite them in a format like this:
Direct quote
Change requested, accompanied by a reliable source
Please do not ask for changed based directly on your opinion, forum discussions or other unreliable sources. Thank you, Dana boomer (talk) 20:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Dana is correct that we must have reliable, sourced material to make changes to what's there.   I'm also wondering here if there is a little bit of the "pure Spanish horse race" stuff spilling over here...not wanting the modern breeds to be in any way linked to these more ancient landraces?  Oh and User 83.174, please don't knock the American Mustangs, there are herds where DNA studies clearly link them to the Spanish Colonial horses.  Also, it makes no sense to define them as "wild" as clearly they can be domesticated.  They may have poor dispositions, but perhaps just a different disposition from more modern breeds; the same criticism is often said of, say the Appaloosa, but, as Dana will clearly let you know (grin), that is simply trash-talking!  Montanabw(talk) 02:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Mr/s Dana
Where did I used unreliable sources? Sorraia.org website?
It´s clear that some people have the right to express their opinions. Also I don´t see the same moderation for other posters, that only mentioned more about stories than anything else.  I did found that reference and did posted it here. This is a public discussion page. I´m sorry, though, if I didn´t used quotes correctly. Regarding what matters more, my source was clear and some of my points did came from there, not out of nothing and/or from hearsay... You said to me: « please, do not ask for changes...» Well I didn´t asked to produce any changes at all, I just merely did presented my opinion on a discussion page.  Because, in fact I´m not personally really interested in what someone thinks that´s reasonable to put on it´s wikipedia page... I´m more concerned about scientific articles, that´s why I´m here, trying to find more references.
On my source it´s  presented a genetic scientific study that proves how ancestral, primitive and wild were the sorraias studied on that sample. You could get some informations from there, I think. Actually I don´t earn nothing from this. If you are seemingly so interested on this subject, maybe you could consult my sources, independently from whatever my opinion reflects.
Mr/s. Montana, I think that we all here know about some mustangs having Spanish colonial origin, that´s not even important for this discussion. Also I didn´t said that mustangs were clearly wild or not wild, so I really don´t understand where´s the benefit to talk about this now. Maybe that could be discussed on Mustang page, not on Sorraia page.
And, yes, I hope to have some doubts cleared up if someone can present any scientific contrasting evidence , I would only be granted for that.
On the meanwhile and fortunately, Sorraias/Zebros whatever you want to call them, finally have a Natural Reserve ( Zebro Valley...) for them on a place that always was their land.
Thanks all for your input.
PS: I´m curious about the sudden interest to make this unoficcial page. Dana, you are from where? Do you like equine matters? I´m a portuguese scientist and I hope to do fieldwork on the Zebro Natural Reserve so I´m curious about why certain people have interest on Sorraia. I hope that we ( me and more scientists) can carry a project here to collect a specimen dead or alive of zebro to deposit it on our local Natural Museum ( Lisbon) to study it carefully. We want to be sure about this matter.
Thanks again. 
Regards.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.174.37.218 (talk) 00:48, 16 October 2010 (UTC) 

If you are a Portuguese scientist, perhaps English is your second language? This may be the reason for some of the comments in your original post appearing contradictory. For example, you say in one place that there is "obvious proof that the Sorraia is not an ancient horse breed", in another place that "I believe they should be appreciated as a modern Portuguese breed (which is what they are unless new information can be dug up about them), not being made into an ancient breed with no proof" and in still another, "Sorraia is not a modern Portuguese breed". Can you see why I'm confused? The last of these statements completely contradicts the first two. It is also hard to see in your first post which pieces are your opinion and which pieces are pulled from actual sources, which is why I asked you to repost a restructured version that had all of the opinion pieces removed.
As for my interest in the subject there was some edit warring going on in the article a year or so ago and a group of us decided to rewrite the article using reliable sources in order to put an end to that edit warring. The conversation this month is not a "sudden interest", as I have kept the article on my watchlist since that improvement drive. Dana boomer (talk) 02:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, English is my second language.
I did said sudden interest, because I believe that this wikipedia page appeared certainly due to someone´s  interest on this subject.
Well, my post itself isn´t contradictory, that quote «I believe they should be appreciated as a modern Portuguese breed (which is what they are unless new information can be dug up about them), not being made into an ancient breed with no proof», aren´t my words... I did put this («») to inform about other words. My comments are made after that. Sorry anyway if that doesn´t sound clear for you.
I´ll put here a more simple version ( let´s call me Zebro and other person Tim (inside «»):
Zebro: Very interesting reference about Criollo. I find it very interesting how people ask for evidences but on their interventions don´t use any. 

Tim: «The Sorraia horse has no known history before the 1920's....the sheer fact that we know nothing of the Sorraia before the 1920's»
Zebro: Of course not, how would you expect to have « known history» about a wild horse that had no domestic breed history?
Tim:«These horses were purchased off of farms near the rivers Sor and Raia. There were 7 founding mares and 4 stallions.
One of the founding stallions was an imported Argentine Criollo named Tata dios Cardal and was bred by none other than Emilio Solanet( http://www.aicsorraia.fc.ul.pt/origem_modelo.htm ). Besides this obvious proof that the Sorraia is not an ancient horse breed, the sheer fact that we know nothing of the Sorraia before the 1920's and the fact that Spain and Portugal have had hundreds of years of crossbreeding proves that the Sorraia is just another modern breed.»

Zebro: According to the Sorraia page ( http://www.sorraia.org/folheto.htm), that´s not the case. Fenotipically and genotypically, this is a not modern breed, but more likely a primitive wild horse.
Tim:«I discovered through speaking with Portuguese people on message boards the the typical temperament of a Sorraia is aggressive and stubborn which is not a Spanish or Portuguese temperament. If it were, then the Iberian horse in general would not have become so famous as being an excellent and obedient riding horse.»
Zebro: Instead of more stories of hearsay, I would just comment that episode, by just describing it as a normal behavior for a wild horse. It´s nice to know that Sorraia is acting like one!
Tim «From what I had read of them, saying that the Sorraia is ancient is the same thing as saying a group of American Mustangs whom has no history, but coming in the dun coloration is somehow ancient and now a founding parent of other horse breeds.»
Zebro:I´m sure that it wasn´t an ordinary dun colored horse that was a regarded as a Sorraia/Zebro. Check again the informations provided on Sorraia folheto (page).
Tim: « When I read Dr. d' Andrades writings on the Sorraia (from which most other people have gotten their claims about the Sorraia save those experts who say they are modern) it became clear that his conclusions about them came not from facts, but from assumptions and opinions. In other words, nothing objective or factual. It is the same thing as saying that a painting you think looks like a bat and someone else thinks it looks like a butterfly.»

Zebro: The only thing that seems clear for me is that sorraias/zebros are directly related to indigenous and primitive wild horses from South Portugal ( and possibly Spain too) called zebros. This the more plausible explanation. Again check Sorraia Folheto/page. Dr Andrade had a great experience with horses and he does certainly understand more about his subject than certain people. Luckily, his Sorraia seem to be pretty CONSISTENT in morphology and genetics with wild primitive horses and not with normal modern domestic breeds.
Tim: «I believe they should be appreciated as a modern Portuguese breed (which is what they are unless new information can be dug up about them), not being made into an ancient breed with no proof.»
Zebro: Sorraia is not a modern Portuguese breed ( though some wild horses were domesticated and used for that purpose) and truly won´t ever be one, because there´s an intention to give a refuge to them in the Zebro Valley Natural Reserve ( an ancient living place for this wild horse specie) and because their genotype and fenotype isn´t that of a modern domestic breed. Well, things seem to be pretty consistent for me, though I would certaintly appreciate to get more informations about this case. Not much about questioning how wild, ancient and primitive they are ( that´s pretty obvious), but more about saving them in the near future. Maybe some people who are against the reality about this wild horse, only have been a bit reluctant to accept facts ( while can´t produce any tangible contrasting evidence) because they feel envy about it. It´s a pity because maybe could be this wild horse who could give a big boost on the Tarpan reconstruction. Regarding the local iberian tarpan form ( Zebro) identity, everything points out to Sorraia as being the number one candidate. Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.174.37.213 (talk) 03:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Regards  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.174.37.218 (talk) 02:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC) 

Ah, I think I understand now! You were quoting from the post at the top of this page, yes? Well, there is not much we can do about another editor's posting - their opinions are quite different from what is actually represented in the article content (seen at Sorraia). I doubt the editor that posted the comments that you are quoting from is still reading this page, but if they are, hopefully your comments will help to educate them. Now that we have that cleared up (I think), do you have any questions about the main article page, rather than the dicussion here on the talk page? More insights are always helpful! Also, earlier discussions on this page were archived - you can find them at Talk:Sorraia/Archive 1. Dana boomer (talk) 02:42, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

You know, though I think the revert was appropriate, there IS an argument to be made that we should use a European image as lead.  I looked in Commons, and found this, which might be suitable.  What do you think about replacement?   Montanabw(talk) 21:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC) 
Greetings Montanabw...long time since I have contributed here, though I do check in periodically.  After viewing the recent edit activities, I thought it was essential to point out that the lead photo presently in use does indeed depict a European Sorraia (born at a zoological park in Germany out of parents who were imported from Portugal) and not a Sorraia Mustang.  Perhaps the confusion lies in that the photo in present use is of the purebred stallion, Altamiro, who now resides in Canada and lives a semi-wild existence with a harem of mustang mares of Sorraia type as part of a preservation project.   The photo you have highllighted here in the talk page is one I uploaded with the persmission of Hardy Oelke (its his horse and his photo) several years ago.  I have since been to Portgual myself and took scads of photos while there of Sorraia horses.  Likewise I have some useful photos of Altamiro's offspring which demonstrate how successful and valuable outcrossing the highly inbred Sorraias to Sorraia Mustangs has been.  I will take some time today and upload a selection of photos (probably in the Commons) and you, Dana and any other editors following the Sorraia page can make use of them as you see fit. Selona (talk) 11:32, 3 August 2012 (UTC)Selona

I have finished uploading 13 new photos, although I did so with the quick "upload wizard" feature and should have assigned these photos to the category Sorraia, but did not pick up on how to do this using the quick upload feature and am not sure how to do that now.  Hopefully this link to my uploads will work for you to access and review:  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles/Lynne_Gerard  Lynne Gerard (talk) 13:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)Selona
Sorry for any confusion.  I uploaded my photos under my real name and didn't realize when providing the link to them I was signed in as Lynne Gerard instead of Selona.  For the purposes of this particular article I prefer any "conversation" be carried out on my "Selona" talk page.  Thank you.  Selona (talk) 13:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)Selona

Maybe clarify that on the image's page, the edit that inserted the poor-quality animal said that is was a "real" Sorraia, implying the photo you had was otherwise, maybe just clarify.  Also note that other photo got put on about a half dozen other language wikis, even though it's a poor quality specimen.  By the way, LOVE the image of the day-old foal and maybe it could replace that other foal photo that's just the back? Montanabw(talk) 22:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The lead image's page did already clearly state that the photo depicted a purebred Sorraia (hence, "real") but it has now been given a boost with additional information that should completely alleviate real or imagined confusion.  If the consensus among editors is that the more recent photo of the day old foal (thanks for the compliment, Montanabw) conveys the same or better depiction of the "pseudo stripes" the wavy hair of some newborn foals creates, you certainly have my blessing to swap images.Selona (talk) 21:42, 5 August 2012 (UTC)Selona

Updated image info should solve all problems, the photo is the best of the bunch.  As for File:GrulloFoalCoatStripes.jpg versus the day old foal pic, both are partbreds, but I suppose the question is if we are illustrating the dorsal stripe, which I suppose is the point, not adding cute baby pics (which I'd love, but I suppose there is no real editorial reason to do so...)  Montanabw(talk) 18:34, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

"The breed had previously been known by the local Portuguese as "zebro" or "zebra", due to their markings."
Is this correct? According to this website "http://www.sorraia.org/zebro-sorraia.html", "zebro" was the portuguese word for wild horse in the middle ages, and probably the origin of the word "zebra". Therefore, it is likely that "their markings" had nothing to do with the origin of the name.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.117.40.134 (talk) 13:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC) 

The Title in the infobox states what the animal is i.e. "Sorraia".  I removed this from the caption below the image because it is redundant.  Editors have reverted this.  Please state why it is necessary to repeat information that is above the image, below the image.__DrChrissy (talk) 23:57, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I gave a more comprehensive answer to this same question at Talk:Spanish_Mustang#Unnecessary_repetition_in_the_Caption.  Here, noting it's a stallion is of some interest, as stallions are supposed to be the best-quality representatives of the breed. But it's not a moral issue, certainly.  Though it's an OTHERSTUFF argument, I think the overwhelming majority of our horse breed articles that have photos also have captions to those photos. I don't feel like going through 400 articles to do the stats, but per my post at the the other article, most of our horse breed FAs do have captions, though two of them do not.  It's a style question, and to the best of my knowledge, I have never had an FAC reviewer comment one way or the other on the presence of a caption. Montanabw(talk) 00:41, 21 January 2015 (UTC)