# Talk:Westminster Abbey

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Westminster Abbey boys choir.jpg
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

This is mostly a note-to-self about stuff that I'd like to get round to adding or fleshing out, but if anyone else wants to take any of it up, be my guest. Some of these have main articles already, but I think still deserve more of a mention here, if only a brief one. In no particular order:

UNESCO World Heritage status- DONE
The Unknown Soldier's funeral and grave- DONE
Scientists' Corner- DONE
Cosmati Pavement- DONE
Side chapels- DONE
Architecture of Henry VII Chapel- DONE
Order of the Bath- DONE
Poets' Corner- DONE
Coronation Chair- DONE
Architecture of the exterior- DONE
Architecture of the interior: transepts, quire, sanctuary, ambulatories, nave, cloisters, precincts- DONE
Stained glass, esp. the Queen's Window- DONE
Queen's Diamond Jubilee Galleries- DONE
Medieval wall paintings- DONE
In popular culture- e.g. The Da Vinci Code, John Betjeman poems, etc- DONE
The medieval monks- DONE
Recent archaeological finds- DONE
Chapter house murals- DONE
Blitz damage- the citation for this is pretty weak atm, and I'd like to find a better one and re-write this section. Hopefully I'll get access to the British Newspaper Archive soon for this- DONE
It's a lot! But it's all stuff I think the article needs to be comprehensive. Apparently this article is C-class at the moment, and I think as a UNESCO World Heritage site, the Abbey deserves better. Thank God the "burials and memorials" section is its own article, else we'd never finish. JRennocks (talk) 19:31, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

@JRennocks: Hey! I was just wondering if you had any thought as to perhaps an expansion on material regarding the worship/liturgical practices at Westminster since the Reformation? If you think there's enough detail already, I'll defer to your judgement, but I was thinking of trying to pull together maybe four or five sentences interspersed throughout the article to add a bit more to that context. I have a ton of material on Anglican liturgy and I'm certain I can find some additional details. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
Ooh, good thinking! I guess we don't want to do anything that's common among all Anglican churches, because I'm sure there's an article on Anglican liturgy already. I think our closest model among featured articles is probably Wells Cathedral, which has a section on ministry, if that's close to what you're thinking of? I think anything about what services they run would be out of date before you press "publish", though. JRennocks (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
I missed this reply; excellent idea on using the Wells article as inspiration. I concur on the need for specifically Westminster practice. Interestingly, there's a separate need for an Anglican liturgy article (consider this a note to self on that). I'll try to check in with you sometime this week once I've seen to a few of my offline duties. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:20, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Westminster Abbey - 51370500850.jpg
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello all- have just added an external link to SmartHistory's excellent video on the architecture of the Henry VII Chapel. Honestly, I was going to use it as a source anyway, but I saw that the featured article on Wells Cathedral links to a SmartHistory video directly, so I've followed that model. I know that external links to videos are contentious, but I hope my reasoning here is sound.  JRennocks (talk) 18:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

The infobox for the church appears to be displayed in an extended format in the article. It may be necessary to seek input from experts in the field to address this issue. Sarah SchneiderCH (talk) 21:34, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the duplicate map. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 06:48, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I copy edited (part of) this article as it was requested by JRennocks at WP:GOCE/R. First, thank you for your patience! As I can't commit to finishing this copy edit in a reasonable timeframe, I've asked another GOCE member to step in—I am sure they will do a great job.
When undertaking requests, I usually keep a running log of notes. These notes are mostly questions that arose, or edits I did not feel I should make myself. Of course, this is just my opinion—feel free to take it or leave it. Please feel free to reach out with any questions or concerns.


### Line edits
This seems to have been quoted as the origin of the salmon that Thames fishermen offered to the abbey, a custom still observed annually by the Fishmongers' Company.
clunky, rephrase
As a consumer and employer on a grand scale, the abbey helped fuel the town's economy, and relations with the town remained unusually cordial, but no enfranchising charter was issued during the Middle Ages.
what town? what is an "enfranchising charter"? also, reword as two sentences if possible
By 1261, Henry had spent £29,345 19s 8d on the abbey, and the final sum may have been near £50,000.
£sd is not familiar to many readers. Omit (e.g. "about £29,345") or add an explanatory footnote.
File:Westminster Abbey - Plan showing relative positions of the church of Edward the Confessor and of the existing church 1910.jpg
Note that this map may not be color-blind accessible. (See MOS:COLOR for accessibility notes, and Toptal for a simulation.) More robust alt-text and caption would be helpful. A more extreme measure would be to recreate this map as an svg with more accessible coloring (or request this at WP:GL/I).
The remainder of the old nave was pulled down and rebuilding commenced, with his mason Henry Yevele closely following the original design even though it was now more than 100 years out of date.
replace "his" with the person's name (I think it's Richard II but am not sure)
The Pope asked Henry VII for a large sum of money to achieve sainthood for his predecessor; Henry VII was unwilling to pay the sum, and so instead he is buried in the centre of the chapel with his wife, Elizabeth of York.
Which pope? Source doesn't specify as far as I can tell (it also doesn't explicitly back up "a large sum of money" AFAICT)
In 1535, when the king's officers assessed the abbey's funds, their annual income was £3,000.
Clarify "their"
In 1560, Elizabeth re-established Westminster as a "royal peculiar" – a church of the Church of England responsible directly to the sovereign, rather than to a diocesan bishop – and made it the Collegiate Church of Saint Peter, a non-cathedral church with an attached chapter of canons, headed by a dean.
Split into two sentences after "bishop" (unsure if these events happened simultaneously or subsequently, so I didn't do it myself)
In the early 17th century, the abbey hosted two of the six companies of churchmen who produced the King James Version of the Bible. They used the Jerusalem Chamber in the abbey for their meetings. The First Company was headed by the dean of the abbey, Lancelot Andrewes.
am I supposed to know what the First Company is?
The Dean and Chapter fled the abbey at the outbreak of war, and were replaced by priests loyal to Parliament.
possibly link Dean and Chapter on first mention (term was unfamiliar to me)
In 1669, the abbey was visited by the diarist Samuel Pepys, who saw the body of the 15th-century queen Catherine de Valois. She had been buried in the 13th-century Lady chapel in 1437, but was exhumed during building work for the Henry VII Chapel and not reburied in the intervening 150 years. Pepys leaned into the coffin and kissed her on the mouth, writing "This was my birthday, thirty-six years old and I did first kiss a queen." She has since been re-interred close to her husband, Henry V.
Possibly trim a bit (while a fun fact, is the quote necessary?). If possible, provide date of re-interrment.
In 1941, on the night of 10 May and the early morning of 11 May, the Westminster Abbey precincts and roof were hit by incendiary bombs.
the perpetrator should be introduced in the first or second sentence of this bit
A passageway from the Little Cloister leads to College Garden, which has been in continuous use for 900 years, beginning as the medicine garden for the monks of the abbey and now overlooked by canon's houses and the dormitory for Westminster School.
after "and" I don't really understand this sentence


### General notes
Image formatting (via {{Multiple image}}) is problematic. See MOS:IMGSIZE, WP:GALLERY, WP:IMAGESIZE, and template documentation. Unless there is a strong reason for grouping the images, insert them individually. I don't see any strong cases besides maybe The west front, before and after the construction of the western towers. The multiple image template simply isn't compatible with many browser sizes and is generally unnecessary in its usage. I recommend reformatting.
Pay mind to MOS:DATED (avoid "to this day", "today", etc.)
I linked some terms that were already linked in the lead; this is on purpose (MOS:REPEATLINK). I think it makes sense to re-link with each section as relevant, but not more than that.
Again, thank you! 

Wracking talk! 08:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

@Wracking Thank you! If it took you a while to do the copyedit, it's taken me even longer to begin implementing it. Have so far worked my way down to the note on Catherine of Valois. A couple of suggestions I've not implemented: the one about accessibility for colourblind folks on the image (I've no idea how to go about fixing that one) and the one about the First Company (it's the first of the six companies previously mentioned- I don't know how better to explain it). The multiple image formatting is based on the featured article for Wells Cathedral, although I agree it does cause some problems. If someone else wants to have a go at those, be my guest. Will try and get round to the rest at some point.
Thank you again for your kindly-delivered and straightforward feedback. JRennocks (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
@JRennocks, I'm glad you found the notes useful! Happy editing, Wracking talk! 23:27, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

@Remsense Hi, I really think that OSM map is superior to Pushpin map, especially in this case, because it is:

zoomable
provides border of church
has an indicator marker (shape of church)
these properties are not available in pushpin maps. Thanks, Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 13:49, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

@Remsense Before all, I should mention that I really apologize that I did that edit without making "consensus" in its talk page, and I really try to discuss such edits from now on. That's just my idea, and I really try to avoid doing that without consensus. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 14:24, 1 August 2025 (UTC)
Articles about London locations all use the appropriate pushpin maps. This maintains continuity of style between related articles. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 14:52, 1 August 2025 (UTC)
Thanks, I got the reason. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 14:55, 1 August 2025 (UTC)