# Talk:Prince Marko

Wp:onus clearly states that the editor who continues to remove sourced material from the article (especially this one which is classified as good article) should reach consensus via talk with presentation of reliable sources. Ty. Theonewithreason (talk) 15:52, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

You are dying on the hill of an unsourced IP edit from September 2024 that is explicitly rejected by the source cited. [1] SigillumVert (talk) 16:08, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Please read WP:civility.Theonewithreason (talk) 16:12, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Perhaps you should read WP:civility before casting aspersions for which you have no proof. SigillumVert (talk) 16:15, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

@Theonewithreason Please stop edit warring and adding information in the infobox contrary to the sources you listed. I have checked both of the cited refs. One clearly shows Livno was not part of the Kingdom of Serbia and the one you added says nothing on Marko being born in 1326. [2] Livno was part of the Kingdom of Croatia prior to 1326 and after the Banate of Bosnia. The sources cited clearly show this on page 229 George W. White (2000). Nationalism and Territory Constructing Group Identity in Southeastern Europe. Rowman & Littlefield. The sources cited explicitly contradict what you keep adding again and again to the infobox. This goes even further than failed verfication and into the territory of outright misinformaiton. 
You are also casting WP:ASPERSIONS by implying I am engaging in sockpuppetry with multiple IP accounts. Don't lie about such things. SigillumVert (talk) 16:03, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

I am not the one who is edit warring here, and you should check the sources again. especially the ones which are listed on this article like Fine [[3]], which are more reliable than Croatian articles at that time Zachumlia was part of Serbian kingdom especially before 1326. this was even stated on regions page. As for your personal attacks I am going to ask you to stop. Theonewithreason (talk) 16:10, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
This is hilarious, the link you just gave me [4] describes the rulers of Livno in 1316/17 as “Croatian princes”! Look, page 211!
Just stop. I have not personally attacked you in any way. You most certainly are edit warring and Hrvatska Enciklopedija is a RS. You are also wrong according to every single source you listed. Both Fine and White explicitly say Livno was Croatia and then later the Banate of Bosnia. SigillumVert (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Hrvatska encyclopedia is NOT rs, and second you are obviously cherry picking what you wish to add. Fine describes Hum through centauries and clearly say that the Hum was annexed by Bosnia in 1326. During the civil war after Milutin’s death many Serbian nobles had taken sides, presumably usually doing so to better their own local authority and increase their own landholding. Not surprisingly, even after the war was over the squabbling among various Serbian nobles continued. This situation seems to have been particularly intense in Hum. By 1325 the Branivojevic family had emerged as strongest in Hum. After the death of Milutin the Branivojevici (the four sons of a nobleman named Branivoj), based on the lower Neretva and holding Peljesac (Stonski Rat) with a major court in Ston, had asserted their authority over a large number of other nobles in Hum. Though the Branivojevici had taken advantage of Serbia’s difficulties to assert consider¬ able independence for themselves, on the whole they were willing to call themselves vassals and supporters of Serbia. Their unlicensed behavior, particularly in plundering caravans, had become a thorn in the side of the merchants of Dubrovnik, and not surprisingly, by their land-grabbing behavior, they had stirred up considerable opposition among other nobles in Hum. Orbini claims that by force the Branivojevici had ended up with most of Hum from the Cetina River to Kotor. Thus they had also been asserting their control over much or most of western Hum. They also, Orbini claims, had forced vassalage upon the former ruling family of Hum, represented by Peter, the son of Andrew of Hum, and Peter’s sons Toljen and Nicholas (Nikola), who held Popovo Polje and the coastal lands bordering on Popovo Polje. And though nominal vassals of Serbia, Orbini states, the Branivojevici had treated Serbian interests very cavalierly. They had attacked the Serbian zupan, Crep, the king’s deputy for Trebinje and Gacko, and, having defeated Crep, had killed him and annexed his lands. This action seems to have occurred in, or just before, 1322, because Crep is referred to in Ragusan documents from 1319 and 1321 as alive and active and from 1322 as being deceased. pg 266.In 1326 some of these dispossessed and angry Hum nobles turned against Serbia. For though now, after his victory, Decanski was in a position to take action in Hum, he had done nothing about it; thus the frustrated nobles viewed his failure to act as support of the Branivojevici. These alienated nobles then approached the other strong ruler in the area, Stjepan Kotromanic, the Ban of Bosnia, who in the preceding years had asserted his firm control over the Bosnian lands and made Bosnia into a strong state. Allying himself to various families of Hum and to Dubrovnik, the ban intervened in Hum, dispatching two armies thither and annexing most of it. Orbini states that two of the Branivojevic brothers were killed in the fighting. Recent research has securely dated this campaign of annexation to April-June 1326. Bosnia acquired considerably more territory than the Branivojevic holdings. pg 323. Dusan obtain his own major goal of recovering Serbian Hum. However, before Dusan’s armies managed to reach her cities, if indeed that was their destination, and before they could occupy all of what had been Serbian Hum, Dusan was recalled to put down trouble in the east. There is a whole article in about that also Croatia as Kingdom did not existed at that time [[5]]. Theonewithreason (talk) 16:37, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
You are clearly not here to seek consensus. You also display an ignorance of history (the Kingdom of Croatia was in a personal union with Hungary and existed in one form or another until 1918) and a clear contempt for secondary sources on which wikipedia is based.
None of what you qouted here makes any mention of Livno being in Zahumlje. Equating Livno with Zahumlje and then by extension with Serbia is textbook WP:SYNTH and WP:OR.
As for the reliability of Hrvatska Enciklopedija, you are welcomed to make your case at the reliable sources noticeboard. You personally don't get to decide what is RS and isn't. SigillumVert (talk) 18:11, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
This here is a good article page, you should introduce yourself with the meaning what that is, also you are obviously pushing your own personal opinions, sources are clear, so this discussion is closed, since you are not here to build an encyclopaedia or to cooperate, you have failed per WP:onus to reach a consensus. Theonewithreason (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Hello. This claim appears to have been first introduced in September 2024. The original GA-rated version of the article did not have a birthplace. Is it even conclusive that he was born there? The infobox does not match the article's body. StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:27, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
As a third neutral side, StephenMacky1 what do you suggest? Theonewithreason (talk) 20:37, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Well, you all could have asked for a WP:3O if you were unable to resolve the dispute between yourselves. Anyway, my suggestion is to review the literature, preferably newer sources. If this birthplace is conclusive, then the body should be updated as well, but if it is not, then I would suggest removing it from the infobox altogether. StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:48, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
My main dispute is not where he was born, but the fact that Livno was not part of medieval Serbia. Page 229 George W. White (2000). Nationalism and Territory Constructing Group Identity in Southeastern Europe (the map) and what Theonewithreason linked [6] The late medieval Balkans : a critical survey from the late twelfth century to the Ottoman Conquest PAGE 211 "...coalition of Croatian princes...Mihovilovići of Livno", confirm this. SigillumVert (talk) 23:01, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Theonewithreason has not – as of yet – produced a single source claiming Livno was in Serbia. Or that Prince Marko was even born in 1326, most sources place his birth around 1335. He abruptly changed the birth year which is still listed in the first sentence of the lede when I pointed out that Livno came under Bosnian rule after 1326 according to the Croatian Encyclopaedia. SigillumVert (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out that inconsistency as well. I have tagged the disputed content. I get what you are disputing but it could be an unnecessary dispute if his birthplace is not even conclusive. Marko is the subject here. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:21, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
Fair enough. I have no objection in removing Livno altogether as his birth place appears to be inconclusive. For a long time it was listed as Skadar before an IP editor changed it (if I recall correctly). SigillumVert (talk) 12:27, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
All right. If there are no objections, it can be removed. Skadar appears to also have been introduced in January 2024 by an IP. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:07, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
StephenMacky1, agree with your proposal, better to remove it altogether then.Theonewithreason (talk) 16:09, 10 March 2025 (UTC)