# Talk:Zodiac Suite

@EddieHugh - thanks for reading through the article and your comments on the lede. I believe landmark in the history of jazz (landmark meaning an important stage or event in something's development) is accurate based on the following (referenced) content in the body of the article:

Dan Morgenstern considers the Carnegie Hall concert to be the first time a symphony orchestra performed jazz compositions.
Zodiac Suite was considered novel in jazz music when it was first performed, both thematically and musically, due to its references to and use of classical music.
The suite was seen as an accomplishment by the black community at the time and one journalist said the Carnegie Hall concert "completely eroded the whites-only barrier to the Carnegie Hall stage."
In 2020, the album was inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame.
The Town Hall performance is placed by The Penguin Jazz Guide as a "key moment in the recognition of jazz as an important twentieth-century music".
Your comment does highlight that the lede doesn't summarise the middling contemporary reviews of the live performances. I've put in a sentence to reflect this in the lede along with some edits in the body. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:12, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I added the tag having read the relevant section. I'm still not convinced that "landmark in the history of jazz" is justified. Going through the points:
Morgenstern's comment is about a symphony orchestra, not jazz itself.
I haven't looked at these sources (I might not have access to them), but there are certainly earlier examples of this in jazz. Even if it was first, being first doesn't make something a landmark. (e.g., Kind of Blue is a landmark recording and is often discussed in relation to modal jazz, but it wasn't the first recording to contain modal jazz.)
"seen as an accomplishment by the black community"...I'm not sure what this means. Carnegie Hall refers to a performance of the suite, not the suite itsefl.
Grammy: this is more supportive, although it's for an album, not the suite itself.
Penguin: again, that's referring to a performance (or appears to be... I haven't seen the context of the source).
In summary, the lead asserts that the suite itself (not a performance, not a recording, etc.) "has been described as a landmark in the history of jazz", but that isn't supported by the body. I'd drop the "landmark" and describe more neutrally the reaction to the different things that the article describes – the composition (i.e., the suite itself), the performances, the impact of one or more of the performances (socially, culturally?), the recordings – and leave the readers to reach their own conclusion about all of that collectively. EddieHugh (talk) 17:45, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Great - I think this is a fair interpretation. I've changed the lede to be more specific to the recordings and concert and used "breakthrough" rather than "landmark". Zodiac Suite has been referred to as a "landmark" (by NYT, Jazz Times, ABC ) but these are usually in passing and it would be UNDUE to add these refs just to support the lede. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2022 (UTC)