# Talk:Payback: Debt and the Shadow Side of Wealth

I haven't read the book, but doesn't the premise sound Nietzschean? In fact, it sounds completely borrowed from "The Genealogy of Morals" Any thoughts on this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.68.207 (talk) 01:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC) 

I don't think the book cites Nietzsche, but the 2nd chapter (about the moral/ethical side of debt) does mention something similar to On the Genealogy of Morality's Second Treatise, specifically, the "forgetfulness" (Atwood goes onto to explain the impact of literacy and writing instruments on eliminating the forgiveness/forgetfulness). The "guilt" concept seems to be different though. In that paper Nietzsche seems to associate debt with guilt and punishment in a morally wrong context. Atwood does consider the 'debt is bad' aspect, but mostly deals with it more neutrally; the debt is neither good nor bad, there is no "punishment", just a balancing of a perceived unfairness through some perceived equivalent value. Regardless, Atwood is not philosophizing on the concept like Nietzsche in theoretical terms, but rather explaining the history of how humans deal with debt in practical terms. --maclean (talk) 02:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for you reply. I see what you are saying. However, she seems to me influenced by the Nietzschean discourse on the topic. As you say, she treats debt neutrally and does not associate it with bad conscience as Nietzsche does, but there is a famous passage I think from The Gay Science were Nietzsche says that justice works like debt and he cites Thucydides. Since the premise of Atwood's book is this connection between justice and debt or at least theoretical parallels between them, then Atwood must have read Nietzsche. I mean, she may have well thought all of this on her own, but since she is not a philosopher per se or does not display an over-arching philosophical propensity, it seems likely that she read and was influenced by Nietzsche. Also, her considering the historical aspects of debt is much in alignment with Nietzsche's project and methodology in the Genealogy of Morals. After all, a genealogy is just that, a historical investigation into the origins of something.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Payback: Debt and the Shadow Side of Wealth/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.


### Criterion 1: well-written
 Minor issues that won't get in the way of passing. I'll list some in case you want to make any changes:

1. I made a small move to put the author before what the book is about to be more formulaic. Don't mind it as you can revert it back. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
2. Small awkwardness - "Scrooge is rich but unwilling to spend and living miserably before being saved". The "living miserably" stands out. "Although Scrooge is rich, he is unwilling to spend his money and is living miserably before he is saved."? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


### Criterion 2: factually accurate and verifiable
 With reliance on quotes and being able to check many of the sources, I have no qualms saying that this is verifiable and accurate. The uses appear to be relied on in a strong manner. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


### Criterion 3: broad in its coverage
 Many sources and I do not see anything concerning. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


### Criterion 4: neutral
 Many, many sources that appear to establish this as neutral. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


### Criterion 5: stable
 Appears to be stable. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


### Criterion 6: illustrated, if possible, by images
 Two images - 1 fair use with strong rational. 1 image box with text. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. I made the suggested change. It does sound better. maclean (talk) 18:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I've added a brief mention of the 2012 film adaptation Payback (2012 film) with two news refs; I also felt the reflist would look better in two columns. I did so before realizing that this article was GA status. I want to help, not hurt, so if anyone associated with this GA status article has issues with my two edits, let me know. Or feel free to change it. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. I just added a note that it was premiered at Sundance. maclean (talk) 05:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. But I felt a need to tweak "and premiered..." I do think the sentence requires a relative pronoun, there, as it follows a non-essential clause. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)