# Talk:Tumu Crisis

is Tŭmù zhī bìan (土木之變). Bìan is commonly used to describe a coup d'etat, revolt or some other dramatic incident involving the use of military force. I originally thought about translating it as "incident" but since it's too close to shijian, I've decided translate bian as "crisis". For this reason I've changed the title to "Tumu Crisis". Also it's more important for its political effect than militarily.--Yu Ninjie 01:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There is a contradiction in the troop numbers for Esen Tayisi's forces. The Esen Tayisi page says he had 20,000 calvary, while this page says he had 200,000. I think that 20,000 is likely the right number, given this sentence: The Mongol victory was won by an advance guard of only 200,000 cavalry. .  Kerowyn  Leave a note  04:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Was the emperor really captured on September 8? The article says that the army was surrounded on September 1, and that on September 3 the captive Zhengtong Emperor was sent to Esen's main camp.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.69.166.132 (talk) 23:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC) 

September 1 is also the date in Julia Lovell book "The Great Wall - China against the world". It might be the difference between Julian and Gregorian dates but the article must show consistency. Avihu (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

For the alternate name "Crisis of Tumubao" the pinyin is given as "Tǔmù zhī Biàn"; surely this is wrong.  Someone who knows the correct tone of bao should fix it. Languagehat (talk) 16:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for pointing out.   Lonelydarksky (暗無天日)  contact me (聯絡) 12:50, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Much of the unsourced material on this page has a tint of bias in favour of Emperor Yingzong at the expense of Wang Zhen. If any of the material about Wang Zhen was supported by citations that would be one thing, but the entire article holds Wang Zhen responsible for a series of blunders which led the crisis, and none of this information is supported by citation. This appears to be deliberately designed to undermine the role played by Esen Taish and to spare criticism of Emperor Yingzong. This page appears to be informed by a Han-Chinese nationalist interpretation of events. 
Just at a guess, it is likely that no English-language academic text even exists that is supportive of the view taken in this page. This is not an uncommon issue in English-language pages on China and Chinese history on Wikipedia. 
I recommend this article be locked and much of the content about Wang Zhen deleted. If anyone is willing to collaborate I may be able to provide at least some alternative material to cite.  Bernardfitz (talk) 10:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure who added Nolan and Cathal's book as a reference. Please take an in-depth look at it yourselves, it mentions the total number of forces assembled including logistics but not the number that left the walls and partook in the battle itself.

the article is about the entire crisis, not the indivdual battle, so this seems appropriate. Also the source you're adding appears to be primary - you need a reliable secondary source.Pipsally (talk) 10:35, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Right now the infobox says 270,000 Mongols (uncited) fought 500,000 Chinese. This is contradicted by another paragraph saying only 20,000 Mongols were present (also uncited). Could someone find the correct numbers, both for the Mongols and Chinese? RedStorm1368 (talk) 10:40, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tumu Crisis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Min968 (talk · contribs) 04:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 14:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct: 

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: 

Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline: 

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose): 

C. It contains no original research: 

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic: 

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style): 

Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each: 

Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute: 

Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content: 

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: 

Comments
As far as I can see this is your first GA. Please regard my comments as suggestions and feel free to disregard any of them if you think it would not improve the article, but please share your reasoning with me. Borsoka (talk) 14:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I would expand the lead section with two or three sentences. Borsoka (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
...the defense of the northern borders of the Ming dynasty began to deteriorate Why? (very short explanation) I would rephrase the sentence to clarify the venue: "the defense of the northern borders of Ming China began to deteriorate".
Weisuo?
Done. Min968 (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Military peasants... Is this the common English term? A link or a short introduction?
Done. Min968 (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Link "eunuchs" to Eunuchs in China, and "the steppe" to Mongolian–Manchurian grassland.
Done. Min968 (talk) 23:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
...as the outposts in present-day Inner Mongolia had been abandoned. Why and when? (very short explanation)
Done. Min968 (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
A note to "firearms of various types" to explain them?
Done. Min968 (talk) 11:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
A link or short explanation for hand rockets?
Done. Min968 (talk) 11:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
A link to Eastern Mongols?
..., giving them control over Mongolia Rephrase.
Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
...to the young Khan of the Eastern Mongols Arughtai? (If they are not one and the same person, this should be clarified when Arughtai is introduced as the leader of the Eastern Mongols.
Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
...inherited the title of taishi... In the previous sentences, we are not informed that Toghon bore the title taishi.
Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
I would introduce the title taishi when it is first mentioned. Borsoka (talk) 01:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...ruled over Mongolia To what does the term Mongolia refer this context? The three Mongol tribes or present-day Mongolia?
Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Introduce Hami as a Chinese/Ming city.
Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Introduce Gansu as a Chinese/Ming province.
Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
...his power extended to the borders of Korea Did he conquer or inherit the lands near Korea?
Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
I am not sure.
...he was seen as a threat by opponents of Wang Zhen,... Why? Why not by Wang Zhen?
Done. Min968 (talk) 11:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
..., so did his need for these goods. Why?
Done. Min968 (talk) 16:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
...This led to a significant influx of Mongols... Influx? Did they settle in the city?
Done. Min968 (talk) 02:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
This led to a significant number of Mongols into Datong... I do not understand. Borsoka (talk) 01:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...for an imperial princess for his son Perhaps "for an imperial princess's hand for his son"/"for an imperial princess as a wife for his son"
Done. Min968 (talk) 03:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Borsoka (talk) 15:40, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Borsoka I have revised the points mentioned above. Min968 (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Introduce Toghtoa Bukha Khan.
Despite not consulting his ministers,... Rephrase.
Done. Min968 (talk) 07:08, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
It should also be noted that... Delete.
Done. Min968 (talk) 05:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...this precedent... Precedent is not the best term in context.
Done. Min968 (talk) 05:57, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...while the head of the dynasty and the empire, as well as the person on whom the world's attention was focused,... Rephrase.
Done. Min968 (talk) 15:47, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Although the emperor thanked him for his concern, he did not allow himself to be swayed from his plans. Rephrase.
Done. Min968 (talk) 15:47, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...by the a supervising secretary... The or a? Is this a civil or military office?
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
A link to palanquin?
Done. Min968 (talk) 05:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Introduce Yanghe.
...(present-day in the northwest of Yanggao County, Shanxi) Delete. When introducin Yanghe mention that it was a Chinese town, village, a mountain, or what.
...which was already in Chinese territory. Already?
Done. Min968 (talk) 05:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Who is Hongxi Emperor?
This left the soldiers with only a few hours between 1 and 4 August to prepare for the march. I do not understand.
Done. Min968 (talk) 15:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...it is believed... By whom?
Done. Min968 (talk) 15:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...according to one contemporary source... Name (and ideally link) it.
...was given as half a million,... By whom?
The total number of mobilized soldiers for the campaign was half a million, but in reality, the actual number may have been significantly smaller. The source of the first statement should be mentioned, and the PoV should be attributed to a scholar. Borsoka (talk) 02:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
The total number on the expedition is usually given as half a million. Goodrich & Fang (1976). p. 290 Min968 (talk) 02:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
...the fallen soldiers from the battle... Rephrase.
Done. Min968 (talk) 11:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Decide whether "the emperor" or "the Emperor".
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:11, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...more soldiers died from starvation than from skirmishes with the enemy. Why?
Done. Min968 (talk) 11:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately,... Delete.
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Introduce Yao'erling. Is it a town, a village, a river? Is it near to Daron, Beijing, ...?
Introduce Tumu. Is it a town, a village, a river?
... (present-day in the southeast of Huailai County, Hebei) Delete.
It is believed... By whom?
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Wang Zhen's reluctance was due to his desire to keep his baggage with him. Is this a fact or a PoV? If the latter, attribute it to a source or scholar.
...But Wang Chen again refused, since this would have meant abandoning his own huge baggage train,... Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 324
Unfortunately,... Delete.
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Despite offers to negotiate... By whom?
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...his forces ... offered to negotiate. Are you sure?
... the Mongols first prevented the army from breaking camp and proceeding to Huai-lai and then offered to negotiate. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 324
I would say the Mongols instead of his forces.
...the Mongols seized a large amount of weapons and equipment, resulting in the deaths of many Chinese soldiers I am not sure that I understand.
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:51, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...one of the Ming officers killed Wang Zhen. Why?
Surprisingly,... Delete.
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
...decided to inform the Ming side... Of what?
Done. Min968 (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
I have not read section "Aftermath", but it should either drastically be shortened, or split into subsections. Borsoka (talk) 02:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
@Borsoka Some of the points mentioned above have been revised, and I will make edits to the remaining points as soon as possible. Min968 (talk) 16:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Thank you. I will be on holiday for some days, so I will continue the review next year. Borsoka (talk) 17:11, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
In section "Aftermath" I miss information about a fear of the Mongols using the captive emperor as their puppet.
They promptly sent a message with gifts to Esen. What message?
The eunuchs in charge of the Directorate of Ceremonial, Jin Ying and Xing An, relayed the information to the government officials. Delete.
The eunuchs urgently requested for a man of reputable character and clear thinking. I am not sure that I understand. I assume they urged somebody to appoint a man of reputable character and clear thinking to a certain position.
Add a link or an explanatory note to reader-in-waiting.
... and prevent a surprise attack Delete.
...defended the Yongle Emperor's legacy, the transfer of the capital from Nanjing to Beijing, as his former confidant. He... Delete.
Link Xuande Emperor.
Vice Minister of War Yu Qian then spoke out against the idea of moving south, stating that whoever suggested it deserved to be executed. Shorten the sentence.
..., giving him the upper hand Delete.
However, before any action could be taken, approval from above was needed, which was given by Empress Dowager Sun with trepidation. Shorten the sentence. The core information that she also decided to stay.
...were attempting to capitalize on their valuable plunder. They... Delete.
...for the emperor... I would name him and make it clear that he was captive.
..., which consisted of the Mongol army Delete.
..., hoping that this would satisfy their demands Delete.
The local commanders at Datong also refused to open the gates, despite the emperor's anger. They cited imperial orders as their reason for not surrendering. Consolidate the two sentences into one, and do not refer to the emperor's anger.
Regional commander, Liu An, even bravely went to the Mongol camp to meet with the emperor. Eventually, several officials and officers from the city also went to meet with the emperor. However, the city was not surrendered. Consolidate and radically shorten the sentences. Delete "bravely".
...took control of the political situation and... Delete.
...were warned against misusing imperial insignia and badges I do not understand.
...(who had already followed this order)... Delete.
...for a clear leader... Clear?
...his brother... Perhaps "his captive/deposed brother"?
...held no real power but... Delete.
Only one official objected, and he paid for his dissent with his life. Delete.
...his offer... No offer is mentioned previously.
...placing Emperor Yingzong on the throne... I would say "restoring ... to the throne".
However, he was treated fairly by the Oirats and returned to China as their friend. Delete.
Despite the crisis,... Delete.
...capitalize on the victory and... Delete.
@Borsoka: Most of the points above have been revised, and I am currently reviewing the rest. Min968 (talk) 16:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Image review

File:Tumu Crisis.jpg: a reliable source is needed to verify the map at Commons.
Done. Min968 (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
File:MongolArcher.jpg: a reliable source is needed at Commons; US PD tag is missing.
Done. Min968 (talk) 12:19, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
File:1639 Ming musketry volley formation.jpg: a reliable source is needed at Commons.
Removed. Min968 (talk) 03:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Could you add at least one image? Borsoka (talk) 01:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Borsoka (talk) 14:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

(Lead + infobox): the main text suggests that not only the Oirats attacked China, but the lead's first sentence only mentions them, whereas the infobox and Categories mention the Northern Yuan and the Oirats. The Northern Yuan are not mentioned in the main text.
(Lead + infobox): the lead does not mention Zhang Fu among the Ming commanders, while he is listed in the infobox.
(Infobox): Taisun Khan and Alaq-Temur are not mentioned in the main text.
The infobox presents Toghtoa as the main commander of the invasion, but he is not mentioned in the lead.
@Borsoka: Fixed
(Infobox): numbers in section "Strength" are not verified in the main text.
(Lead): I would mention the deposition of the captured emperor and the ascension of his brother.
(Lead): The Ming never paid a ransom for the return of the emperor, and Esen released him a year later. Why? Otherwise, shorten the sentence. Borsoka (talk)
@Borsoka: Some of the points above have been revised. Min968 (talk) 05:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Source review

Academic sources are cited. Although tertiary sources are also cited, the text is verified primarily by secondary sources.
Either add location to each title, or delete it everywhere.
Done. Min968 (talk) 03:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Page ranges are needed for Chan and Twitchett. Borsoka (talk) 01:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Borsoka (talk) 14:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Please quote the text (here on the review page) from the cited sources verifying the following sentences:

After the death of the Yongle Emperor in 1424, the defense of the northern borders of Ming China began to deteriorate. Despite complaints from generals about the lack of resources, no action was taken.
After the Yung-lo emperor death, both the generals and members thegrand secretariat warned of the shortcoming of the frontiers, but their protests went unregarded. Minor changes to frontier defences- the blocking of one strategic pass and the strenthening of guardposts- were made in 1435 and 1438. But ortherwise things were allowed to continue unchanged until 1449. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 319
The Mongols were divided into three groups: the Uriankhai in the southeast, the Eastern Mongols (also known as Tatars) in the east, and the Oirats in the west.
...three separate Mongol groups came to settle along the Chinese border: the Uriyangkhad in the northeast, the Tartars or Eastern Mongols who latter formed the Khanate of Chahar in the center, and the Oirats, who live far to the northwest of Mongolia. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 316
In Beijing, he was viewed as a threat by those who opposed Wang Zhen, a powerful eunuch who held great influence at the imperial court in the 1440s.
Irrespective of Esen's intentions and ultimate goals, such a concerntration of power posed in itself a threat to China in the eyes of officials like Liu Ch'iu and many other memorialists after him. It was clear to those concerned that means to counter to this potenial danger were woefully lacking. Heer (1986) p. 14
In late 1440's were such a time. Liu Ch'iu became one of the earlier and certainly more celebrated victims of Wang Chen's increased activites... Senior officials kneeled in Wang Chen's presence and few dared to propose anything that could offend this first eunuch dictator of the Ming. Heer (1986) p. 13
Wang Zhen profited from illegal trade activities, such as selling metal tools and weapons to the Oirats. As a result, he ignored proposals to strengthen defenses on the northern border and warnings about threats from Esen.
Through a network of enuch appointees in the border garrisons, Wang Chen managed to benefit from trade, even resorting to outright smugging of goods like metal tools or waepons, where trade was retricted or banned altogether. There circustances throw a different light on the lack of concern about the northern frontier by the policymakers. Heer (1986) p. 15
In July 1449, Esen launched a large-scale invasion of China, with the Mongols advancing in three directions. Toghtoa Bukha Khan and the Uriankhai attacked the Liaodong Peninsula in the east, while the second Mongol army advanced on Xuanfu and the third, led by Esen himself, advanced on Datong.
...in July 1449 Esen launched a large-scale invasion of China. He mounted a three-prolonged attack: Toghto Bukha was led the Uriyangkhad banners in a raid in to Liao-tung; his own subordinate, the chih-yuan A-la , was besiege Hsuan-fu; and he himself advanced against ta-tung... Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 322
The sentence's introduction is closely paraphrased, but it would be difficult to rephrase it without loosing information. Borsoka (talk) 10:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
On 20 July, news of the raid reached Beijing and the emperor responded by ordering four generals and 45,000 soldiers from the Beijing garrison to advance to Datong and Xuanfu to protect the border.
On July 20 there was a report of border raids by the Oirats chieftain Esen; the emperor at once ordered four generals and forty-five thousand Peking soldiers to proceed to Tatung and Hsuan-fu to guard the frontier. Goodrich & Fang (1976) p.290
The Mongols then proceeded to Yao'er Gorge, where they ambushed and destroyed a newly formed rear guard of 40,000 cavalry under the command of General Zhu Yong (朱勇)
... that the rear guard had been crushed and a relief force of forty thousand was also annihilated.. Goodrich & Fang (1976) p.291
A powerful new rear guard of cavalry was sent to guard the imperial entourage. Its commander, an elderly and imcompetent general, Chu Yung, led it staright into a Mongol ambush at Yao-erh-ling: this force too was annihilated... Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 324
On 4 September, Minister Wang Zhi approached the empress dowager to request her consent for appointing the Prince of Cheng to govern the country.
On 4 September, Minister Wang Chi approached the empress dowager with the request that the prince of Ch'eng take charge of the administration,... Heer (1986) p. 21
Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing: "...Wang Chi proposed/requested/urged the empress dowager..."
The Tumu Crisis sparked a major reorganization of Ming authorities and the military, which ultimately contributed to the relative stability of the Ming dynasty for the remainder of the 15th century.
... Threre is ample evidence of continuing bueraucratic stability and a determination to undertake necessary reforms in the military and civil soheres, even in the capital, the scene of the main events... The relative stability of Ming China during the rest of the fifteenth century resulted to a large extent from the shock of T'u-mu and the bold and competent measures taken to meet the crisis by Peking's new leadership. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 331
Borsoka (talk) 02:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@Borsoka I have quoted some sentences, hoping they meet your requirements. Min968 (talk) 05:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Thank you for the quotes. Taking into account of a case of possible close paraphrasing, please also provide me with quotes for the following texts:

Yu Qian used his position as the highest-ranking official in the Ministry of War to oversee defense preparations.
In the political vacuum created by the loss of Ying-tsung the officials had taken in the initiative. In particualar Yu Ch'ien. Ever since he had gained the upper hand in the debate on the post-T'u-mu policy, the vice minister of war had led the defense preparations. Heer (1986) p. 22
The operations of the Ming troops did not have significant results, but they faced difficulties in supplying their troops due to the destruction of the surrounding area.
Against such raids the Chinese steadily strengthened the strategic passes, while Chinese cavalry again began regular sweeps of the inner steppe from Ta-t'ung and Hsuan-fu, although this active policy produced few results and placed a great strain on a logistic services, since the area had been devastared by the Mongol invasion of the preceding autumn. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 329
Borsoka (talk) 10:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
@Min968: congratulations for your first GA. I am sure it can still be improved, so you may want to request a peer review. After the peer review is closed, you may nominate it as a FAC. I think your article is quite close to meet all FA criteria. Borsoka (talk) 01:18, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

@Ambatuhistorypremium:, are you sure there were exactly 500,000 warriors in the battlefield? Who did count them? Borsoka (talk) 03:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Almost all sources says it’s was 500K Ambatuhistorypremium (talk) 12:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
While others say, it is an estimation. Borsoka (talk) 13:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Different sources different outcomes ,idk but usually it’s says 500k Ambatuhistorypremium (talk) 01:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Look at the original sources in [2] and see what they say. If it’s an estimation, then it’s fine, no problem. But if it directly states 500K, then it makes more sense to use 500K. Ambatuhistorypremium (talk) 01:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Other sources make it clear that it is an estimation. Borsoka (talk) 07:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)