# Talk:The Hole (Scientology)

Regrettably there seems to be some opposition to this article appearing in the Did You Know? section on the Main Page. Comments are invited at Template:Did you know nominations/The Hole (Scientology). Prioryman (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

There is a suggestion that the topic of human trafficking be discussed and that perhaps the classification may not be justified strongly enough to include Scientology's "Hole" in that classification. There is an overwhelming amount of documentary evidence both in criminal case law and civil case law covering Scientology's human trafficking however the most recent Federal investigations (which are still pending nation-wide indictments) are well covered:

Church o -scientology being investigated for human trafficking allegations
Scientology investigated homeland security human trafficking claims tony-ortega
Homeland security investigating scientology for human trafficking <-- The most informative
The fbi is investigating scientology for human trafficking <-- The most commented
Scientology fbi's scientology investigation balancing the first amendment with charges <-- The most well-referenced
U.S. Scientology lawsuit 
Point being that there is no question whether or not Scientology commits human trafficking, it has been established previously in crimnial and civil cases, one of the most notable being in Madrid where 69 people were indicted for numerous charges including human trafficking. Enough documented evidence exists to warrant this article's classification as including human trafficking; we want articles to be as accurate, non-biased, and as inclusive as reasonable, so the classification is warranted. Damotclese (talk) 21:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

FYI, Spain has a problem with human trafficking for the child rape vacation industry Human_trafficking_in_Spain which seems to be the most common form of human trafficking. What Scientology engages in is the more basic for of trafficking which approaches slavery, the inability to leave, make phone calls without being monitored and approved, working for either no wages or for wages that are pennies an hour. Damotclese (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I've looked through those articles and cannot find any statement which ties "human trafficking" to "The hole."  Some articles make reference to other articles that have been written about the hole, and some comments from users mention the hole, but nothing that would link this article to human trafficking investigations.  Right now your evidence looks like  original research through WP:SYNTH, or better stated your articles state that scientology is being accused of human trafficking, the hole is an article about scientology, therefore the hole should be tagged for the human trafficking category.  Unless you can show me where in the articles the hole is being investigated as part of the human trafficking claims (I very well could have missed it) then I don't think this article belongs in that category.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Not sure if you're beling deliberatly obtuse :) but for now I will Assume good faith in your query. The Hole discusses the Scientology enterprise's holding of customers and owners/operators against their will by applying manipulative practices to retain defacto-or-realized ownership of an individual's forced behavior (e.g. forced labor or forced sex trade (see Human trafficking and what constitutes traditional human trafficking.) Also see Brainwashing in the Rehabilitation Project Force Dr Stephen Kent)
As for "original research," FBI investigations, newspaper articles, and court documents do not constitute "original research." For purposes of the classification of The Hole artuicle being associated with human trafficking, the classification is obviously accurate and shall remain. Damotclese (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
please find a source that will qualify the standards of inclusion set forth in WP:SYNTH, and no I am not deliberatly being obtuse, I'm following wikipedia policies on what counts as  verifiable information.  Please remember that this is a Scientology article and is under ARBCOM sanctions, so right now what you are trying to include looks like it is very close to pushing a specific view of Scientology, one which I assure you Scientologists will find as disparaging, so we need to be absolutely sure that when challenged it passes muster.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:34, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
So if you want to include the catagory, you need to have an article that links the subject of the article, "the hole," with human trafficking, otherwise you should probably take this argument to the scientology article.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
The article classifications already include The Hole as part of the human trafficking behavior of the Scientology enterprise. References that are rejected by people based upon ideological grounds or upon a difficulty understanding the materials do not invalidate said references. The classification shall remain. Thanks. (Also, Dev-T has ended. Final decision.) Damotclese (talk) 18:05, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so here is all I am asking you to do.  Find ANY reliable source which says "the hole" (subject of the article) is evidence of "human trafficking" (your claim).  If there aren't ANY reliable sources out there that have made that connection then you are drawing an  original conclusion through WP:SYNTH.  I am assuming by your reaction that you haven't been able to find any WP:RS that say the hole is part of the scientology human trafficking program. (and what the hell is Dev-T?).Coffeepusher (talk) 18:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Also some of your above sources aren't WP:RS, and none of them say that Scientology has committed human trafficking, they all say that charges have been filed, the church was found innocent, investigations ensued, and no further charges have been filed.  All of this is "alleged" human trafficking, and none of it has been confirmed by an independent source (ie: courts of law, FBI investigation, etc.).  So placing this article in the human trafficking category seems premature.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:05, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
From the articles I've read here and elsewhere, it looks like Scientology and human trafficking is a complicated issue.  I believe that it should definitely be mentioned on-wiki, but what is not clear to me is whether or not it should be included in this article.  For what it's worth, I recommend finding one article in WikiProject Scientology to expand the accusations of trafficking, maybe even Scientology and human trafficking.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of those events took place in The Hole, but for now it would be easier to avoid linking the two until more reliable sources are published.  This is not an issue that is going away any time soon, so we can wait to add the link.  Andrew327 06:41, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Hole (Scientology)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: PrairieKid (talk · contribs) 02:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I will do this review. It seems interesting. PrairieKid (talk) 02:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
See below.
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 
This article requires a copy edit. The grammar throughout has several mistakes. Quotations (such as the one at the beginning), commas, and spelling were some of the most common mistakes made in the article. N
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
The article cites many refs several times throughout, and about 3/4 of its refs are pages in books, which I am not able to check on, which worries me. I can't simply assume good faith. The Background section's 3rd paragraph needs more citations. N The Media exposure and legal inquiries section's 3rd-7th paragraphs all need more citations. N
Regarding books as citations, I refer you to WP:SOURCEACCESS.  Andrew327 14:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
Y
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 
A section called Escaping from The Hole?! The entire article is completely biased against Scientology. "Over the next three years, the number of people confined in The Hole..." N
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 
This article has been nominated for deletion over a dozen times. I don't think the article is very secure. ?
Many Scientology articles have been subject to deletion campaigns and other tactics.  This pattern ultimately led to a well known ArbCom case.  Andrew327 14:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 
Y
Overall:
Pass/Fail: 
This article does not meet the GA criteria at the time. I don't think it has the potential to be upgraded to meeting the criteria within a reasonable amount of time. PrairieKid (talk) 02:52, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Hole (Scientology)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) 20:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

Can someone provide some source on the identification of this building? The framing of the areial photo here suggests it is the large, warehouse-like building composed of two intersecting squarish forms. However, all the descriptions indicate it is a double-wide trailer home, or multiple such trailer homes connected, which clearly could not be this large building. It seems to me the smaller buildings in front of the one pictured more closely fit the description. Walkersam (talk) 17:59, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

There is some ambiguity to the language, yes. The video surveillance drone camera footage that was made public last month show two buildings that are inter-connected as the Scientology "executive" prison complex, both buildings of which look to comprise double-wide trailers. If I'm not mistaken, "The Hole" consists of two inter-linked double-wide trailers, the skirts around the bottom of the buildings hiding the under-carriage which would contain wheels and tow rigging make it difficult to determine if they are double-wide, yet the article's description appears to be accurate according to the covert video that was taken. Damotclese (talk) 16:37, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Seriously? Those buildings don't bear the slightest resemblance to "two double-wide trailers linked together". Either the source for the claim that that is the hole or the source for the claim that the hole is two double-wide trailers is obviously wrong.
Also, the claim that "The executives confined at the Hole are reported to have numbered up to 100 of the most senior figures in Scientology's management" is inconsistent with the claim about two double-wide trailers. The largest double-wide trailers that are about as long as they are wide are 32 by 40 feet.  that allows each person six feet by four feet, assuming that there are no bathrooms, kitchens, closets, etc. -- just beds covering every inch of the interior. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 02:29, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

The building that became the Hole was an office, not a dormitory. My understanding is that when personnel were confined there, they slept on the floor. I'll rummage up some sources.    ▶ I am Grorp ◀  06:28, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Here you go. Probably the most detailed description of the construction of the buildings is in Rinder's book where he mentions the building is two 80-foot long double-wide trailers with a conference room and hallway constructed between them. Here is a screenshot of those pages. To show it's not just one person describing the building thus, one Tampa Bay Times article describes The Hole "based on numerous interviews with a dozen former members of the church's religious order, the Sea Org, and on information found in church materials and court testimony." There are also mentions of the double-wide trailers in Wright's book, Wright's Apostate article, page 340 of Reitman's book, and part 3 of the Truth Rundown series. Note that office/commercial trailers are not at all like residential 'double wides'.    ▶ I am Grorp ◀  08:14, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

OK. The double wide trailers claim is certainly well-sourced. That leaves us with the problem of the image at [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Hole_Gold_Base.jpg ]. I mean, just look at it! Look at the size of the golf carts in front and on the sides. Look at the width of the road. Is anyone here going to seriously suggest that the building shown was trailered in on that road instead of being built on the spot?
Who took that picture - presumably with a drone - and how do we know they got the right building? Any chance that the original double wide trailers were replaced with a normal built-in-place structure between the time Rinder describes and the time the photo was taken? Is the photographer the same Sinar Parman nentioned at [ https://tonyortega.org/2017/11/18/sinar-parman-1954-2017-chef-to-scidentologys-celebs-who-escaped-to-dish-on-l-ron-hubbard/ ]?
The image shown has very little resemblance to what we say in Mobile_home#Construction and sizes, which is what Double-wide trailer redirects to. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 02:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Oh, geez, Guy... are ya gonna make me look through a bunch of youtube videos giving tours of the facility by people who worked there? Because I can do that, but I really don't want to do that just to prove to you that's an image of the actual building used as The Hole. Let's start with:
There's the second image, a drawing which matches the photo,  on this page (part 3 of the Truth Rundown articles)
In the Rinder book, he writes "It looked like a large cake box--square with a flat roof, painted white with a "bunting" of fake blue tiles around the top in an attempt to make it blend in with the other buildings on the property." Then look at the other image from the article, commons:File:The Hole aerial view.jpg, and notice all the other buildings have blue roofs the same color, and none have a flat roof. Also notice that what you thought was a road is actually a footpath, and the trailers are really close to the real road. I wouldn't be surprised if the trailers were trucked in back in the 1980s or so, before the trees grew up and the security fence was installed. Might even have arrived before those little "cottages" in front of it were built; or maybe they are trailers, too.
   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  03:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Here is an ABC News story; watch 5:40-6:00 for the identification of the building. And this video accompanied this Tampa Bay Times article. I don't know if there is a more official version of it, but here it is for what it's worth. It also identifies that building. It includes a segment by John Brousseau who called it the CMO Int building (as did Rinder in his book) and Brousseau goes on to talk about being ordered to put the bars on the doors and windows. These should be sufficient to settle the matter.    ▶ I am Grorp ◀  05:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
You don't have to do anything else. "Square with a flat roof, painted white with a 'bunting' of fake blue tiles around the top in an attempt to make it blend in with the other buildings on the property" is more than sufficient to establish that we have the correct image. I was wrong. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 05:17, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Phew, thankfully I don't have to go digging some more. One can only read and watch so much of this stuff before going crazy. LOL    ▶ I am Grorp ◀  05:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
I know we're not looking for this anymore, but I thought I'd note it here anyway. I just encountered it in a diagram of the entire Gold Base printed inside the front and back covers of the 2009 book Blown for Good. Building #25 is annotated with WDC, CMOI, Exec Strata, "SP Hole". (WDC = Watchdog Committee and CMOI = Commodore's Messenger Organization International.)    ▶ I am Grorp ◀  07:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)