# Talk:Steve Cherry

This review is transcluded from Talk:Steve Cherry/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Kosack (talk · contribs) 07:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Picking this up, review coming as soon as possible. Kosack (talk) 07:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


### Lead
Consider adding professional to the opening sentence. It's generally considered the norm to distinguish the fact that a footballer played at such a level.
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Link cap to Cap (sport).
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


### Derby County
"However Derby were relegated at the end of the 1979–80 season", the however is probably unnecessary here I would say.
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
"in goal for four Fourth Division and four FA Cup", sentence is a little repetitive with four uses of the same sound. Perhaps something like "played in eight matches, four in the Fourth Division and..."?
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
What happened with the "comic goal"? Seems strange to mention it but not describe what happened.
I've removed the comic bit, he just played poorly in an embarrassing defeat.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Third paragraph ends without a ref.
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
"two-time Ballon d'Or winner", this borders on a WP:PEACOCK term for me. Is it relevant to Cherry that he had won these? I'm not so sure.
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


### Walsall
"to reach the third round of the FA Cup tie against First Division", this seems a little muddled with the addition of tie and the remaining part of the sentence.
Removed erroneous word.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


### Plymouth Argyle
Plymouth are linked before this, so repeating is a bit of an WP:OVERLINK.
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


### Notts County
"only four of their next 19 games", it's generally advised to avoid switching between words and digits in the same sentence with comparable figures.
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


### Statistics
Minor point, but it's generally preferred to keep refs in numerical order. The sources for the table here are slightly out of sync.
Sorted.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
His FA Cup apps for Derby add up to 12 but only 8 are listed in the subtotal. I don't know if that throws any other totals out of sync?
The Derby totals seem off as well, he's given 89 total apps in the subtotal but I count 93 in the season-by-season breakdown. That's probably related to the above point.
Derby only played one FA Cup game that season, must have been a typo.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


### References
Most of the article is sourced to his autobiography, but a few spot checks on the online refs available all appear to match up. No concerns here.
Nothing much to gripe about, this is a good quality article. A few minor points above, placed on hold for now while these are looked at. Kosack (talk) 09:56, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you for the review.--EchetusXe 01:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
No worries, great work on the article. All of my comments have been suitably addressed. Happy to promote. Kosack (talk) 10:04, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Am I missing something?  —valereee (talk) 23:17, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

80% of the references are to the autobiography and the other 20% are form independent sources. The 'single source' tag for issues of notability, which is why it links to an essay about notability. The article is about a footballer with 690 appearances in professional competitions. The subject's notability is not in question so I will remove that first tag that has been inappropriately placed. The autobiography is published by The Book Guild Ltd. It is not a self-published source so I'll have to remove the second tag as again it is not appropriate for the article. Please make sure you understand how to tag articles correctly.--EchetusXe 01:51, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
@EchetusXe the problem isn't that there is information sourced to his autobiography. It's that practically the entire article is, including at least one two dubious claims of heroism. I'm not arguing that he isn't notable. I'm arguing the sources aren't sufficient to support some of the content. Too much to one source doesn't mean not notable. Third party doesn't mean self-published. I'm retagging, let's keep discussing. Please tag me when replying, I often don't see things.  —valereee (talk) 14:12, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
@—valereee Your two "dubious" claims of heroism are that his teething cries at age two woke the family up to a fire and that a youth-team coach said that he was "a very relaxed goalkeeper with a lot of ability". Sorry but your definition of heroism is something I'm struggling to get my head around. I don't know how we are supposed to verify the details of a house fire with no casualties in 1962 and dig up a quote in a local newspaper about a 17-year old youth-team player in 1977. I don't understand why you are treating the true life story of a former footballer as the ramblings of a delusional fantasist. The author of the source is Jonathan Nicholas, he has written six books. This isn't some self-published blog. There are 34 other sources that are referenced, so that the claim that "practically the entire article" is sourced to his autobiography is false. The swallowing the tongue claim was reported in The Mirror and in the BBC commentary at the time. As said in the DYK discussion, it's a commonly use phrase, people know that when an unconscious person is choking on their tongue they're not literally swallowing their tongue.--EchetusXe 15:23, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
I quote the editorial usage guide for the One source template: "This template should only be used for encyclopedic content which has a verified, cited source, but only the one source. A single source is not automatically a problem. Good judgment and common sense should be used." This article has 35 different sources.--EchetusXe 15:45, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
@EchetusXe, the second dubious heroic act I was referring to was the livesaving prevention of someone from swallowing their tongue, sourced to his autobiography. The youth coach assessment was apparently reported in actual media, so let's find that source for it.
It doesn't matter that it's not a blog, it is an autobiography, which by definition is closely connected to him. A person can't actually swallow their tongue, and I don't think we should be saying so on the front page. It's an old wives' tale, and we shouldn't be propagating it.
I don't think we should be sourcing any remarkable claim to an autobiography, and especially not on the front page. Let's just find something interesting that isn't sourced to his autobio. —valereee (talk) 18:56, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
@—valereee That's fine to not have the hook about the tongue swallowing if it's the case that Fashanu only appeared to be in danger to non-medical people like Cherry, the commentator, the reporter and Fashanu himself. I wasn't sure if 'swallowing the tongue' is just an expression for the tongue blocking the airway, or whether the tongue won't actually block the airway anyway. But it needs to stay in the article because it was widely reported to have happened. I put that "he was credited with saving the life" rather than "he saved the life". I'm not going to check the archives at Derby library for Dario Gradi's quote so let's just remove that if it's going to be such an issue. I liked the other hooks but if it has to be cited by something other than the autobiography then it was pretty interesting Kidsgrove Athletic are claiming to be the first senior club in the country to have father and son goalkeepers on their books at the same time when Steve and Jon were at the club. EchetusXe 01:43, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
@EchetusXe, I won't argue about the article. I don't think it should be primarily sourced to his autobiography, but I don't have enough interest in the subject to want to argue over it. (I made those two edits just to illustrate the kinds of things I was concerned about being sourced to his autobiography -- remarkable incidents, and stuff that could just as easily be sourced to something else.) My real concern here is DYK, which I work at regularly. I would object to most DYK hooks that were self-sourced without a very clear 'According to his autobiography' (or whatever) attribution statement. Which I think then makes a hook a bit wordy and unwieldy.
So he played for a while on the same team as his son? Yes, that seems interesting to me! I feel like that's extremely uncommon in any team sport outside of motor racing. :)  —valereee (talk) 13:04, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't think anyone has enough interest in the subject to argue too deeply about it lol. Okay, I have added the new hook to the DYK :) EchetusXe 13:21, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
—valereee In terms of how it hasn't happened before, it's that that most footballers retire by around age 35, which would be the time that a young footballer would turn professional. Goalkeeper is an unusual position, there's only 2 or 3 in a squad so opportunities are limited. It's a lot more common for a manager and player to be father and son because they are the right age for that, for both to be players it has to be an old player who had a son at a young age, then they have to be at the same club, then they have to both be goalkeepers. So yeah, very unusual indeed!EchetusXe 14:28, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
I concur with valereee. Too much of the article is cited to an autobiography in violation of policy at Wikipedia:Reliable sources. This should have never passed a GA review. I have put in a GA review request. I don't think this is ready for DYK either.4meter4 (talk) 05:44, 10 April 2021 (UTC)