# Talk:The Bourgeois Blues

I would like to get a date for when the song was writen (and when various recordings were made); if anyone can help me with this it would be much apreciated.
Deus Homoni
I think the first recording date might be the best we can get. From [1]. Makemi 16:47, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

hello, does anyone know of any pieces of art that could accompany the songs sentiments of washingtons derogatory attitudes to blacks long after slave trade abolition, i'm sure i have seen something somewhere that would go really well but i can't remember what

>In all but the earliest recording of the song, the original line "Some white folk in Washington / they know just how, call a colored man a nigger just to see him bow" was altered to "give a colored man a nickel just to see him bow", presumably to avoid causing offense.
Removed content is inaccurate; I have in my possession two distinctly different recordings (one on the CD Absolutely the Best the other on Good Mornin' Blues of the song that both contain the original lyric. Combined with the fact that the premise for the alleged alteration is pointless as the word in question is used elsewhere in the song, I see this as sufficient reason for removing the portion of the article above.

I am working on this trying to bring it up to GA standards, I have already written 6 GAs and several of them. Can you please give me a week before reverting all of my work? If you would like to collaborate on this, I am willing. What you removed contained a deeper story of the creation of the song than the one that is currently there now. As for Discogs, itisn't a RS. We can discuss the infobox at a later date. Also, looking at your userpage, It looks like we are some of the last people writing audited content in this topic area, we should probably get used to talking to one another rather than at one another.  --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 16:26, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the article history, I see that your last edit February 6, 2014,[2] left the article with two short paragraphs, four empty section, no refs, and an "under construction" note.  My expansion a month ago is an improvement.  Anyway, let's move on:
1) Please leave referenced material until you have something better to replace it with.
2) Song articles require an infobox.  What appears is supported and can be later added to/changed as needed.
3) Yes, the user provided content at Discogs is not RS.  However, the photographs of the actual records are all that is being referenced and, regardless of the source, is a RS.  The images provide the most accurate info about title, label, serial nos., etc.  Again, when better sources are found, these can be substituted.
I'm not sure there is enough material for a GA, but if you have it, fine.  Take the lead and I may add some comments along the way. —Ojorojo (talk) 20:44, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I have three book chapters plus a few articles; it looks possible. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:52, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
@Ojorojo: what do you think of the creation section? --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
The material from Wolf & Lornell and Scalera is probably as close to definitive as you're going to find.  A small note about the headings: "Creation" seems awkward for a song article, maybe "Background"?  Also, the subheading "Authorship controversy" may not be needed (I'm not sure how much of a controversy this is/was).  This material may work better in the "Legacy" section.  Lomax seems to have had a prominent role: Wolf p. 332 notes in the copyright acknowledgments "Edited with new additional material by Alan Lomax".  BMI also shows Lomax as a cowriter.[3]  Some RS suggest that Lead Belly was being overly influenced by leftists, which resulted in his being investigated as a Communist.  —Ojorojo (talk) 16:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Recordings and infobox: Should the infobox show the LoC or Musicraft single version? (the current recording location and date are incorrect).  I think I've only heard the 1939 single.  Where does the LoC version first appear?  How do the two versions differ?  Also, Lead Belly subsequently recorded other versions (live and ?). Also, did Lomax record a version ("Bushwa Blues")? Some info on these would add to the completeness of the article.  —Ojorojo (talk) 17:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
My personal feeling is that folk songs that were written before 1950 aren't a good fit for infoboxes; there is just too much ambiguity. If we are going to continue to use a box, then I would continue with the April 1939 recording (MUS 227) as the first appearance, because the LoC recording was released by Electra and Rounder but I can't find any indication that it was directly released commercially. Looking over the discography in Wolf & Lornell, the song wasn't rerecorded until May 1944 for Folkways and then again in Feb 1946 and Nov 1948. Both of the last two recordings are bootlegs. It is honestly a miracle that this song wasn't forgotten in the 50s. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Some details would be of interest: fast or slow, major or minor, 12-bar or pop, etc.  Lead Belly was an early player of a 12-string guitar, which he frequently tuned down to C.  "TBB" sounds like  an open tuning (B♭?) Why was Lomax's name later added to the credits?  Also, where can I find the different versions? —Ojorojo (talk) 14:37, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
I've found a couple: 

1) Moderate tempo notated in 44 time in the key of B♭.  Beginning follows a twelve-bar blues arrangement.[4]
2) Copyright renewal 1959 includes Lomax's name.  Can't tell if it was on the original.[Ibid]
3) the ~2:20 1938 LoC/Smithsonian version was released by Smithsonian Folkways on Bourgeois Blues (Lead Belly Legacy Vol. 2) in 1997.[5][6] Also included on Lead Belly: The Smithsonian Folkways Collection in 2005. These are probably the closest to "official" releases available.
4) the ~3:20 1939 Musicraft version appears on Leadbelly released on Archive of Folk & Jazz Music (aka Everest) in 1965.[7]
5) There is also a 5+ min. version.[8] A version on an Elektra LoC compilation from 1965 or 1976 is 5+ min.,[9] but it isn't included on the Smithsonian Folkways releases.  Is this the 1944 Folkways or 1946 recording?
I think these three versions of the song show an interesting development.  —Ojorojo (talk) 18:34, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ojorojo: I turned my thesis in yesterday; I am going to look at these and see what I can add --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 19:03, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I've removed this paragraph:

Jeff Todd Titon and several other writers have suggested that Lead Belly had significant help with its authorship and claim it is not a genuine protest song. This theory stems from the idea that Lead Belly did not have a history of protest music before he was discovered by Lomax. Since the music that Lomax recorded was sold to northerners sympathetic to Civil Rights, it has been suggested that Lomax helped him write a song attractive to a white audience.  Lead Belly admitted that the term "bourgeois" was unfamiliar to him, and it seems out of place compared to the vocabulary of his past work.
After listening to Episode 177 of the podcast "A History of Rock Music" (Start at around 41'25"), which totally debunks the claim that Ledbetter had help writing the song.  The only help he may have had which seems reasonable to claim is that he may have needed help understanding the term "bourgeois", but that likely preceded his authorship of the song.  Also the podcast claims that the paragraph here makes more out of the material in the cited source than is reasonable.  It is reasonable to say that he started writing songs like this because of the people he was associating with.  Many of Ledbetter's songs which he wrote entirely by himself have co-authorship with Lomax, because Lomax's exploitation of Ledbetter.  I don't personally know very much about this subject but this paragraph has been publicly challenged in a popular, respected, extremely well-researched podcast, and the claims there seem totally reasonable. -- SamuelWantman 01:53, 24 March 2025 (UTC) SamuelWantman 01:53, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
I fully agree with this, and came here to do it myself before finding it had already been done - I've made the link to the podcast active and put it in a footnote, along with some of the context. I don't think it should take up too much space in the body of the article, because it's barely even a debate from what I can see, just a bit of supposition that's been wrongly amplified.EDRobson (talk) 12:02, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
As it stands now, I think the article gives enough emphasis to the controversy about authorship -- perhaps more than enough, I have frozen the article as it is for two weeks.  If there is some consensus about changes on the talk page, I'll un-freeze it sooner. -- SamuelWantman 17:13, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi, all. I got involved in editing this article over a minor detail (I removed the word "leading" re. Hickey, with all due respect to him). But when I saw that the substance of the debunking of the Titon narrative had been reverted, I went back in and undid that reversion. All of that happened in the lede, but I see now that the un-debunked citing of Titon and Tracy currently persists in the "Legacy" section. Someone ought to address that, yes? Jcejhay (talk) 19:58, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
My suggestion for resolving this, rather than have an edit war, is to take the second paragraph of the Lede and combine it with the second paragraph of the "Legacy" section.  I don't think that speculation about authorship needs anything more than a very short mention towards the end of the article and the debunking can be right there to dispute it.  That way NPOV is followed and the dispute is not given undo weight by mention in the lede. -- SamuelWantman 01:36, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

The podcast appears to be a self-published source and Andrew Hickey has not been cited by a reliable sources nor has been published elsewhere. This is Tracy 2001 says:
"Some authors have suggested that Leadbelly had some help with "The Bourgeois Blues" and that he sang the song for his new folk audience (see Titon, Early Downhome Blues, 191), though neither suggestion means that Leadbelly did not agree with what he sang. Perhaps the term "bourgeois" is what seems out of place to those who doubt Leadbelly's authorship." (Tracy 2001, 134)
I don't have a copy of either edition of Titon, but my memory if that he has more than one line about his feelings on authorship. The claim should be framed as a minority viewpoint, but not one that is excluded.
Hickey points to the new (from the last 9 months) biography of Lead Belly in his sources, published by Cambridge University Press. I reviewed the book and it focuses on his pre-1935 life and does not cover the song.
@Sam: You are INVOLVED. Please reverse your full protection.
-- Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:39, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
@Sam: Do you have a response? -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 15:20, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
I retooled the section. If Andrew Hickey's assertions get picked up by something that isn't his podcast, we can revisit this. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:08, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
Yes, I was involved, but rather that contribute to a possible edit war I briefly froze the article in a form that I did not like rather than revert the disagreeable parts and suggested discussion.  I was protecting the article from myself! SamuelWantman 00:42, 29 April 2025 (UTC)