# Talk:The Silver Tongued Devil and I

Image:KristoffersonTheSilverTonguedDevilandI.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 05:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:KristoffersonTheSilverTonguedDevilandI.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 23:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is titled "Silver Tongued Devil and I", but content seems more  about "The Pilgrim, Chapter 33".  Needs rework and clarification.

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Silver Tongued Devil and I/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 00:30, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


### Comments
I think you might have to reduce the length of the audio clips used.  See WP:Audio use policy, "Samples should generally not be longer than 30 seconds or 10% of the length of the original song, whichever is shorter", as well as Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music_samples#What_is_the_maximum_length_permitted?, there's a handy chart at the second part of this.  The audio samples are too long compared to the lengths of the songs.  If you disagree with this interpretation, I can ping in a reviewer with more experience in music-related articles, but that chart looks pretty straightforward.  Also, I think the old samples will need to be deleted when the new samples are created.

Got your point, I forgot the "whichever is shorter" part. I uploaded new, shorter files (10% calculated) and tagged the old ones for speedy deletion since they are now orphan files.--GDuwenTell me! 21:26, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Thanks.  I've been busy in real life lately, so it'll probably take me a couple days to get through the rest of the prose, but it looks fairly good as a glance.  I'll do a few sections at a time later and leave the comments as I go. Hog Farm (talk) 21:39, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Lead - The number of tracks and genre, among other things, could be mentioned in the lead.

Well, the number of tracks is usually not specified within the lead of album articles (check other GAs or FAs). I felt that the inclusion of the charts in which it appeared clarifies the genre. If it is not totally clear, I could add it--GDuwenTell me! 21:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Link certified gold to [[RIAA certification

Done--GDuwenTell me! 21:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Infobox - We need a definitive citation for the length.  When I added up the individual track lengths, I got 33:58, but this needs confirmed by a reliable secondary source.

I replaced the length of the songs (most likely, the person who edited it before used the values of AllMusic). As a source, I used the ones printed on the record label. I did a quick sum of both sides to come up with the 32:22. --GDuwenTell me! 10:41, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Where does the date for the single's release come from?  The Miller version seems to have been released in August '71, and it seems unlikely that Kristofferson and Miller would release versions of the same song in the same month?  Also, it's not cited anywhere in the article.

The release date of Kristofferson's single is cited under "Release and Reception". And though it sounds crazy, they did happen to release it the same month (and the same year). I added a citation to the Billboard chart where it actually entered the top 30 at 29. (meaning, I also corrected the Top 40 info)--GDuwenTell me! 22:12, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
On a second check of Miller's version, by the time it charted at 29, it had already been present in the chart for four weeks. Published on August 28, 1971 it indicates that the single was around already at some point in July.--GDuwenTell me! 22:17, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Track listing

This section is entirely uncited
Interesting mention. Well, the Track listing, as well as the Personnel usually don't require a citation external to the article. You may as well use the AV Media template, but there is a strong argument that suggests that the infobox itself is all the citation that it is needed. This  MoS for Albums should answer some questions. A theme-unrelated explanation can also be found on this MoS for film articles regarding plots. I've seen mostly citations on Track listings to assert songwriting credits mostly.--GDuwenTell me! 21:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Personnel

This section also needs citations
As mentioned on the above item, I could add another pointer to the AV Media citation of the album, but I find in most cases it is not necessary. Though it doesn't hurt to add it.--GDuwenTell me! 21:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Chart positions

Again, citations needed.
Another interesting point on citations. Some reviewers have argued since the chart positions are already cited within the body of the article (under the "Release and reception" section) the information is already sourced. I can add another pointer to the existing source.--GDuwenTell me! 21:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Background and recording
""Me and Bobby McGee". the following morning, he returned" - The sentence should start with a capital letter.
The year of the start of the recording needs to be made clear.

I could not find a punctual start of the recording within the bibliography, but only a mention of it happening in early 1971. The fact that I couldn't find it is pretty frustrating, but it is the information I got available.--GDuwenTell me! 21:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Content
"The song is set in Tally-Ho Tavern, a Music Row bar where Kristofferon earlier worked as a bartender,[5] and the patrons included musicians and songwriters" - This would read smoother by replacing the comma after bartender with a semicolon and dropping the and.  Also, Kistrofferson is spelled wrong.
"and became a radio hit when Kristofferson worked as a janitor for Columbia Records." - Replace when with while.  When can give the impression of a cause-and-effect relationship, which isn't then intended meaning here.
"he laments that his partner is absent. [11]" - Remove the space between the period and the ref.
"At 03:00, Kristofferson called Bare." - am or pm?
" The song was first recorded and released by Roger Miller in early July 1971 on Mercury Records; Miller's version entered the Top 40 of Billboard's Hot Country Singles.[19]" - Did Miller of Kristofferson release the single first?  The chronology isn't clear.  Our article on the song states (with no source) that Kristofferson was fist, then Miller, but this gives the impression that Miller was first.
Link to Hot Country Singles in the sentence from the preceeding point
""The Pilgrim, Chapter 33" described a man who has fallen upon hard times" - Should be in present tense
"Kristofferson had repeatedly to Janis Joplin's album Pearl and was affected by her death" - Had repeatedly what?
Style - "At the time of its release, fans of the album argued it is a concept album" - Tense changes in the middle of this.
Release and reception - "It peaked at number twenty-one on Billboard's Top LPs & Tapes chart[28] and at number four on the Hot Country LPs chart.[29]" - Is there a different ref you can use for this?  That those points were reached are verified, but that that was the album's peak isn't necessarily apparent from the source.
Link the gold certification to RIAA certification
"The track "Loving Her Was Easier (Than Anything I'll Ever Do Again)" was released as a single on August 21, 1971, and was backed with "Epitaph (Black and Blue)"; it entered the top thirty of Billboard's Hot 100 chart and peaked at number twenty-eight.[31]" - The peak is given as 26 later in the article, which one is correct?
References - The link to the AllMusic ref is dead.
Placing it on hold for now.  I'll give it another runthrough after these get sorted out, especially the need for citations. Hog Farm (talk) 03:48, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
@GDuwen: - I'm going to ask for a second opinion on the citations that are debated if necessary or not.  This is the first album GAN I've ever reviewed, so I'll try and get a user more experienced in music to give advice. Hog Farm (talk) 01:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: - As I forgot to mention it at the very start, let me take this opportunity to thank you for reviewing the article. I'm also a tidy-bit busy in real life, and fully understand how difficult it happens to be having some time on the side for editing. That being said, I went through the items. I'm also working with the second reviewer on his concerns, as it can be read down below. Let me know if something else arises, or if we need to rework anything. @MarioSoulTruthFan: feels we need to change the name of the "Content" section. I'm kinda stuck coming up with a creative name rather than the one in place now. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks again for your work.--GDuwenTell me! 09:17, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
How about "Music and lyrics" or "Composition"? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 15:17, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I like Composition.--GDuwenTell me! 22:29, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


### 2nd opinion
Regarding the tracklist there is no need for citations since the album is the primary source of the work, on top of that the songs are mentioned above on "content" section (that should definitely have another name). On the Personnel since most name are not cited elsewhere you should add a source for it. On the album charts they are not cited anywhere else, so they should be added. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 13:01, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi MarioSoulTruthFan (talk · contribs), thanks for joining the review. I added those citations to the personnel. For the chart performance, citations can be found under "Release and reception". "It peaked at number twenty-one on Billboard's Top LPs & Tapes chart[29] and at number four on the Hot Country LPs chart.[30]" The first citation points to a book on Billboard charts, while the second one points to the Billboard journal itself. Since it was already cited on that particular section, I didn't see the need for an extra mention on the chart down below.--GDuwenTell me! 08:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I can see where you are coming from, but you are speaking from someone who knows the article back to front and front to back, imagine I stumble upon this article I go straight to the charts and nothing is there to back it up. My first tought is "wikipedia is not reliable", since this is supposed to become a GA even worst. If you look at other GA and FA articles all have it, just use the refence, the same for the singles positions. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 15:17, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Yea, I get your point. I forgot most folks want the quick facts many times. Seeing it as an editor rather than a reader, it does go by the wayside sometimes. Anyway, just a quick copy paste.--GDuwenTell me! 22:27, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: Are you able to continue with the review? As I know, you are busy in real life. If work in-and-outside of Wikipedia is kinda pilling up on you at the time, we can put this one back with the articles awaiting for review. I got no idea how long an article can be held on hold. If we can extend the hold, great, if not, I just want to keep the review process of the article from falling into oblivion. Whatever you decide, thanks for the work you've done so far.--GDuwenTell me! 09:51, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, this review can be left open as long as you're actively working on the article.  I'll have time to monitor it a bit.  Just ping me if you have any question or when you've got it all finished. Hog Farm (talk) 14:31, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
@Hog Farm: Oh, I already went through the points. I feel it is ready for a second look whenever you got the time.--GDuwenTell me! 21:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
@GDuwen: - One last thing. You state that the single charted at #4 on the Hot Country Singles Chart, but the Kristofferson version actual charted on the Adult Contemporary chart. Hog Farm (talk) 22:00, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
@Hog Farm: Well spotted, I got a little mixed up while editing there. There are so many different charts (and changing names throughout the years), I directly assumed it was on the country charts. Guess either the music business people, or Billboard wanted to give it another label to eventually break him with a single into the pop chart (and they succeeded three years later with Why Me Lord).The article now reflects the truth. I had to add a citation for it.--GDuwenTell me! 09:57, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Passing. Good work. Hog Farm (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing, much appreciated.--GDuwenTell me! 20:18, 7 May 2020 (UTC)