# Talk:Shelly Manne

I just looked at the comment I made when I started this page--"(Coverage of a drummer whom I think should be better known.)"--and noticed a grammatical error. For those who care, that comment should read, "(Coverage of a drummer who I think should be better known.)" What could I have been thinking? Sorry! -- Alan W 04:35, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Great page - just added some internal links and made one phrase more readable. --Jppigott 05:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the extra material about Mike Wofford playing a tack piano on the Daktari album. I don't know why it was restored. When I originally removed it, I moved it to the Daktari page, so it is still available. Such detail about Mike Wofford and the African elements in Daktari belongs on the Daktari page, not on a page supposed to be focusing on Shelly Manne. Anyone interested in more about Daktari or Mike Wofford can click on those links. --Alan W 03:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the problem with this section was really POV. It's just that many of the statements lacked citations. I've reworked it all, supporting claims with citations. If there are no objections, I will remove the NPOV tag. --Alan W 01:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't exactly see a heated debate over the neutrality of this section. Nor was there even an explanation of why the NPOV tag was attached in the first place, as there is supposed to be. (See Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute#How_to_initiate_an_NPOV_debate.) I shouldn't have had to be the one to start this  talk-page section. Now that I have revised the article and added citations, I believe I am justified in removing the tag. --Alan W 03:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

A few notes - leave a note on my talk page when you're done. Cheers, — Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 06:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to get a free image for the infobox?  If not, it needs a proper caption, noting that it's an album cover etc. Also, the image description page needs a better fair use justification.
"(11 June 1920–26 September 1984), born Sheldon Manne in New York City)" - You close brackets twice but only open once - I think the first ")" should be removed
Please add Wikipedia:Persondata (see {{persondata}})
"especially Jo Jones and Dave Tough. [1]" - The space between the ref and the full stop (.) isn't necessary
"In 1943..." - the year shouldn't be wlinked
"When the bebop movement began to change jazz in the 1940s, Manne loved it and adapted to the style rapidly, performing with Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker. Around this time he also worked with rising stars like Flip Phillips, Charlie Ventura, Lennie Tristano, and Lee Konitz." - Needs source for her loving it
"From this point on, he played an important role in the West Coast school of jazz" - Needs cite
A few more internet references would be nice, to make it more easily verifiable
"This music was not necessarily bad, but it did not always go over well with aficionados of "serious" jazz music" - This needs rewording - "bad" is not a very professional word...
"performed would have to include" - reword to "performed includes"
"Collaborations" section contains a few unsourced paragraphs
"the polls are now forgotten" - source
"demonstrating the lasting value of the music" - let the reader decide on this; remove this statement
"always searching to extend his playing into new territory. [17]" - Remove space before ref
"personal, precise, clear, and at the same time multilayered" - says who?
2nd and 3rd last paras of the collaborations section read like a testimonial...
"In 1957, the noted critic Nat Hentoff called Manne one of the most "musical" and "illuminatively imaginative" drummers." - Don't wlink the individual year, and remove "noted"
"Benny Carter is on record as having been "a great admirer of his work"" - Is this actually a quote? If so, a source is needed
"That acclaim was echoed by singers as well." - Reword to "Manne was also acclaimed by singers."
"And play behind singers he did" - Please remove this...
"Over decades, Manne recorded additional albums..." - Paragraph needs sourcing
"and tutored star Frank Sinatra" - Remove "star" - his article is evidence of that
"Manne became the go-to percussion man in the film industry" - Citation needed
"By this means, Manne's drumming became woven into the popular music of several decades. Notable examples of later scores that Manne wrote himself and also performed in are, for the movies, Young Billy Young, 1969, and, for television, Daktari, 1966–1969." - I don't really see the point of this paragraph...
"In the 1960s and early 1970s - Remove 1970s link
"when, late in 1973, Manne was forced to close the club for financial reasons" - Don't wlink years
"From 1974 to 1977 he joined guitarist Laurindo Almeida" - And again...
"he nevertheless often succeeded in making art of what might be called hackwork." - Source or remove, NPOV
"But shortly before his death in Los Angeles in 1984," - remove wlink on 1984
"his immense contribution to the music regained some recognition at least locally" - Reword to "his contribution to jazz gained some local recognition"
"Manne became effectively the King of Jazz in California." - Source someone reliable calling him this, or remove
Please leave a note on my talk page when you're done. — Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 06:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Aaaand passed - nice work :) — Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 03:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I can't argue with the desire to expand jazz discographies to the point of completeness for many musicians. Cosprings, you're doing great work. But this is one case (and of course not the only one; think of Duke Ellington, and there are many other examples, such as Milt Hinton) where having anything more than a Selected Discography on this page would be not only undesirable but probably impossible. We couldn't come close, as Manne was on thousands of recordings. Even the discographer in his biography, Bill Korst, missed plenty. If someone wants to start a separate article "Shelly Manne Discography", pointed to by a link here, I don't see any objection, but even that could never be complete. I guess my main point here is, even if we define "complete" as all currently known recordings by Manne, that listing would be so long that it would be inappropriate to include in this article. --Alan W (talk) 03:30, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I am pretty new to this and hope this comment is not out of line.  But Shelly's Manne Hole was an important venue for many influential jazz artists, including Miles Davis, and I am wondering why it is not mentioned in this article.  I do not have enough information about the club to contribute but would like to suggest inclusion by someone who does. I'm assuming that the club was owned by Shelly Manne himself; if that is a wrong assumption then it still could be mentioned that the club was named to honor him.
CyberCrone (talk) 23:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
The comment is not out of line, but the club most definitely is mentioned. See the section "Later career". Maybe you didn't find it because the club name was "Shelly's Manne-Hole", with a hyphen, and you searched for it without one. I'm just guessing how you missed it, but believe me, Shelly's club (he was part owner, his partner being one Rudy Onderwyzer) is covered. Even the fact that Miles Davis performed there was added over three years ago. --Alan W (talk) 04:27, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

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 Support split - Discography takes up more than one quarter of the article, and should be split to a new page entitled Shelly Manne discography.  Thoughts? --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:52, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 Support split  - Sounds reasonable to me. Manne's discography was huge, and if yet other obscure releases are unearthed, it could grow quite a bit more. --Alan W (talk) 05:32, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@JesseRafe: Please look again. This particular case does not fit the case you are objecting to. You wrote:

You are so confident, yet still so wrong. The MOS is explicit in this regard at MOS:HYPOCORISM, “If a person has a common English-language hypocorism (diminutive or abbreviation) used in lieu of a given name, it is not presented between quotation marks or parentheses into or after their name”. There are exceptions, but the “Benjamin (Benny)” etc type is exactly what is not wanted.
And the "Benjamin (Benny)" type is exactly what I did not revert to in this case. That was the way the page was before. I did, as I said, read the relevant parts of the MOS. I grant you that the rule you are applying is made clear with regard to the first mention of the name in biographical articles. So I changed the lede so that the name that Manne was universally known by in his professional life would be mentioned later on in the lede, not by inserting a hypocorism into the first mention of his name, as it was originally. I find nothing in MOS that prohibits hypocorisms or other name variants elsewhere in the lede. I can understand and I support many of your changes with regard to hypocorisms. As you said somewhere, I have been around for a long time and should know better. Well, I maintain that I do know better: in my opinion, you just weren't scrutinizing the page carefully enough to notice the difference between the objectionable case and what I did. I would appreciate a bit more consideration before you accuse me of "edit warring" and "disruptive editing". Those I've worked with over the past 15 years know me as not that kind of editor at all.
I will wait awhile before any further edits in case anyone has anything else to contribute on this subject. --Alan W (talk) 00:20, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not going to litigate the MOS with you, if you have a problem with its rules take it up there. But it is clear, obvious hypocorisms (Sheldon --> Shelly/Shel/Shelley) etc do not need to be spelled out here. He didn't change his name, he didn't adopt a nickname not obviously or commonly derived (say, "Bill" or "Tom") from one of his birth names, and he did not get a complete sobriquet not based on his name at all, like Magic. You also might be confused that at no point did I argue that his common name is not Shelly. The page is still at wiki/Shelly_Manne and the infobox is still Shelly Manne, and any captions or other wikimedia selections that use his full name will still say Shelly Manne. It's just that the MOS calls for not spelling out obvious nicknames in biographies. Full stop. Also, please have this conversation in ONE place. This is the 4th talk page now, it's very tedious. JesseRafe (talk) 14:28, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
You are not the only one finding this tedious. What I find tedious is that you act as if you are the only one who can properly interpret the MOS (yes, some of it is clear, and I've said I agree with you there, but you continue to ignore me), and you are refusing even to consider my point of view. You can put a stop to this by pointing to where, exactly, the MOS prohibits or even discourages hypocorisms in all cases (with the few exceptions you did mention) in biographical articles. That is what you have not yet done. I maintain that with certain subjects, given the context, a hypocorism might be advisable as linked with the notability of the subject. --Alan W (talk) 01:54, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
1, you're seemingly intentionally misinterpreting what I said was tedious, which is your desire to have the same conversation on my talk page, your talk page, and two articles. I was not describing the conversation, which would be an uncivil attack. 2, you seem to be using a non-standard definition of "notability". Being known by a nickname in extremely few cases is itself notable. Shelly Manne would be just as notable as a drummer if he were Sheldon Manne or Bleep Bloop Manne. I can't think of any real-world examples of someone notable for a nickname, but say that Robert was always a common name and it was always shortened Rob or Bob, but then one celebrity went by "Bert" and it was widely popular and lots of people twenty years younger than him started using "Bert" instead of "Bob" and they said in interviews their families called them Bert because of the influence of that celebrity Robert (similar to how every person other than O'Neal on the Shaquille page was born after he was famous in the 90s). In fact, let me stop there. That's an example for an obvious, albeit not common, nickname for which the subject is notable for being, as "Shaq" was plastered everywhere in pop culture for three decades, it was a one-syllable brand and it was used in place of other words, e.g. Shaq-Fu. Shelly Manne is just one of hundreds of Sheldons and Sheltons etc to go by his nickname, so it's not notable he uses the nickname and it's not part of his notability as a famous person. JesseRafe (talk) 14:02, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Mike Selinker recently added this article to Category:The Tonight Show Band members. I reverted that, as I can find no clear evidence that Manne was ever a member of The Tonight Show Band (actually formally named "The NBC Orchestra" at that time). This is nowhere mentioned in the only full-length biography of Manne. That said, I do see several websites out there that claim he was a member of The Tonight Show Band in 1963: for example, AllAboutJazz, and Fandom JazzSkool.org. But are these and other similar sites reliable sources? The only places I see this claim, that Manne was a member of the band in 1963, are sites that, like Wikipedia, anyone (or at least anyone who signs up) can edit. How do we know that whoever added that claim didn't get it from Wikipedia? And where did it come from in Wikipedia? On March 1, 2008, this claim was added to The Tonight Show Band by an anonymous editor, with no source provided. So, as far as I am concerned, right now we have absolutely no justification for claiming that Manne was ever a member of The Tonight Show Band.
If anyone can provide a reliable source that proves that Shelly Manne was a member of The Tonight Show Band in 1963 (or any other year), I'd be delighted to see that added to this article. The more I think about it, however, the less likely it seems. Back in 1963, The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson was broadcast from New York. Manne was based in Los Angeles. Could he have sat in once or a few times on a visit to New York? Possibly. But that wouldn't have made him a regular member of the band, not by a long shot. Anyone have any thoughts about this? --Alan W (talk) 05:49, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm certainly not interested in putting Manne in a category he doesn't belong in. There's an interesting hook in Conte Candoli's obit in the LA Times: "After leaving the All-Stars in 1960, Candoli worked extensively with drummer Shelly Manne and, in 1968, began playing with The Tonight Show band--then based in New York--on its West Coast visits. When Carson moved the show to Burbank in 1972, Candoli joined the band for what was to be a 20-year run. He left when Carson retired in 1992." The perhaps shaky logic being that Candoli and Manne were working together and both played with the Tonight Show band when it visited LA. You'd think it would come up in Manne's biography, tho. I say leave it out until confirmation can be found.--Mike Selinker (talk) 09:48, 2 May 2019 (UTC)