# Talk:Welsh Corgi

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The article states "The tails of Pembrokes are NOT docked as some think."; however, the 3rd picture's caption states "The Pembroke Corgi's tail is often docked, and its ears are smaller." Clarification?

The tails of the dog have been docked for centuries, and today very few are born with tails.  However, in the rare instances where a corgi is born with a tail (usually very short) it is almost always docked.Martin Heidegger 23:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC
That sounds like a Lamarckism argument. Docking a dog breed's tails for 10,000 years wouldn't make them magically be born without tails. If stuff like that worked, humans would be born with pierced ears. — SMcCandlish    Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 06:54, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
Pembroke Crg rry a recessive gene for short tail (rarely born without any tail at all). Current practice in Europe and the UK is not to dock the tail in Pembrokes. Current practice in North America is to continue to dock the tail. Pembrokes may be born with no tail, short tail or full tail.
Cardigans are always born with a full tail that remains undocked.
Patrick Ormos (Phi-Vestavia Cardigans and AKC/CKC judge)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phicwc (talk • contribs) 18:50, 18 May 2014 (UTC) 
I totaly agree. Blueldog6 (talk) 23:07, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Anyone? Nklatt 14:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Corgŵn = /ˈkɔrguːn/, but the English plural is just corgis. Strad 05:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the statement that corgis are "believed to be descended from the Vallhund".  Firstly, an encyclopedia article should stick to demonstrable facts, not just offer what is believed.  Secondly, is there any genetic evidence that the two are related, or is this just breeder's folklore derived from the obvious physical similarities?  If they really are related, how do we know that the exchange was in that direction – could the Vallhund not just as easily be descended from the Corgi?---- Richard New Forest (talk) 18:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

From 1925 to 1939, the two breeds were considered the same and interbred. So, it is true that they're probably going to be genetically similar, yes. But the popular and widely accepted theory (as the exact history is lost), Cardigans come from crooked-leg Teckel Dogs (relating to Dachshunds and Bassets) whereas the Pembroke comes from straight-legged Spitz types like the Vallhund. Not necessarily from the Vallhund itself. Cardigans came much earlier, around 1200 B.C. (with invading Celtic tribes), and the Pembroke arrived around 1100 A.D. (with Flemish Weavers), 2000 years later. There's still very distinct physical differences that make them the two types: When Pems have a tail, it's curly, and they have lighter more pointed muzzles, where Cardigans have deeper chests, bent legs, and heavier muzzles. Sources: [1] [2] [3] [4] KrypticKlaws 21:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by KrypticKlaws (talk • contribs) 
Interesting references, but sadly none of this stuff appears to be based on real modern research.  Essentially various people have theorised freely, and their ideas have been absorbed into breed folklore – however their theories do not appear to have any scientific or historical basis.  The sources are useful for providing factual information (such as descriptions of early corgis and of other possible contributing breeds), but I can't see how they are any use whatever in telling us where corgis came from or when, or whether the two types are related.  Apart from anything else they are full of other errors (such as the meaning of "cur" and the claimed existence of impassible mountains between Cardiganshire and Pembrokeshire). Richard New Forest (talk) 15:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
You are correct that there is very little scientific evidence, and your suggestion of some DNA work would be wonderful. There is some archaeological evidence with Cardigan-like skeletons being discovered in early Celtic burial sites.: Patrick Ormos  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phicwc (talk • contribs) 18:56, 18 May 2014 (UTC) 

So is it just for shits & giggles that Welsh Corgi, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, and Pembroke Welsh Corgi all have different IPA pronunciations? Come on, people. -- 76.28.238.29 (talk) 08:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No, they all ought to be the same: now corrected.  (Not a particularly savoury phrase, that, by the way...)  Richard New Forest (talk) 15:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

A lot of material added recently, much of it reffed to Welsh Corgis: Small Dogs With Big Dog Hearts, a web-based owners' magazine.  Unfortunately this cannot be considered a reliable ref.  It is a tertiary source which gives no indication of its own sources – so we cannot judge which facts are true, which are untrue but widely believed, and which were suggested to the author by a friend and put in to bulk out the article.  Just to take the first example: the alternative theory about the origin of the name.  It is ascribed on the page to "others".  Who are these "others"?  Are they real lexicographers, or just people who once flicked through a Welsh phrasebook?  Have they published their theory in a recognised journal?  When?  What evidence do they offer for it?  What do other lexicographers say about it?  If this (quite plausible) theory is properly sourced we should certainly mention it, but the ref used at present is entirely inadequate, and unless a better one can be found, it should be removed.  I'm afraid the same goes for most (and perhaps all) of the material sourced to that page.  Richard New Forest (talk) 21:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

that is true but welsh dogs are brave mine pushed me over. 23.93.98.19 (talk) 13:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
According to the Telegraph, the Queens first corgi was called Dookie (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1564705/Hug-for-Queen-Elizabeths-first-corgi.html). Is it Dookie or Susan?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.155.38.115 (talk) 18:31, 6 January 2011 (UTC) 

That'll be Dookie. She didn't get Susan until her 18th birthday. Miyagawa (talk) 20:02, 10 February 2012 (UTC)


### New request
I recommend that the article title be moved to just Corgi; everyone says just "Corgi" rather than "Welsh corgi". Besides, the "Welsh" part is redundant; "corgi" (a Welsh word) refers specifically to two dog breeds (Pembroke and Cardigan) that are (apparently) originally from Wales. Wikipedia's general policy is that article titles should be concise, and i strongly support such a policy.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 12:46, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree, right now a search for "Corgi" directs us to the "Welsh Corgi" page. Instead the reverse is more logical and makes more sense. --Bbbzhu (talk) 04:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm tempted to propose this article for deletion or merge, since all of the content here is already contained at Pembroke welsh corgi and Cardigan welsh corgi. Perhaps this page would be better as a disambiguation page? --TKK bark ! 23:55, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I totally agree since all these facts is basically rewritten from Cardigan Welsh Corgi and Pembroke Welsh Corgi Teh Flying Corgi 13:47, 1 March 2013 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theattackcorgi (talk • contribs)  

Perhaps it would be better as a disambiguation page, similar to Springer Spaniel? Miyagawa (talk) 19:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
I agree as well. I'm going to make a comment on WP:DOG and get some broader consensus before I do anything, though. --TKK bark ! 20:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree with the nominator and Miyagawa. Oda Mari (talk) 09:11, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Makes sense to me.  I added merge tags. Gccwang (talk) 15:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
I support merging, but a question: are the two distinct breeds (Cardigan & Pembroke) distinct enough that each requires its own page? Would it be better to merge the two articles into one Welsh Corgi article, and just highlight the differences in appropriate sections? (I'm not a dog breeder, just a comment) Ivanvector (talk) 14:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

@Tikuko: Any result? As of now we just have an ugly purple tag on two articles. --AmaryllisGardener  talk 02:45, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
(BTW, I would say merge and dab would be the best option) --AmaryllisGardener  talk 02:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Support merge No need to have 3 articles for 2 breeds when both breeds are already covered. This page would be better as a disambiguation page. Or you could merge all 3 onto this one and eliminate the sub-breed pages. Move the previous question on this- consensus, I submit, is reached...Veryproicelandic (talk) 20:05, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Support merge or disambig. I saw this notice on the Pembroke Welsh Corgi page and after looking at both articles there definitely seems to be some overlap. It makes sense to merge the pages, or barring that, at least disambiguate the Welsh Corgi page and leave the two separate articles without the third that is a bit out of both but not really anything new. Cat-fivetc  ---- 08:54, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Overhaul Since the merge was first proposed over three years ago, and nothing was done, I'm going to give the article an overhaul. I've written similar articles before (although it has been a while) such as Cocker Spaniel and Fox Terrier, both of which are summary articles about types of dogs rather than specific breeds. I think that is what is needed here, and article to compare the two breeds of Corgi and discuss any shared history. That was it'll contain information not appropriate to be placed in either of the two breed articles. Miyagawa (talk) 14:27, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Much more productive if this is given an overhaul. As it's being expanded I'll remove the tag.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:40, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Section on activities says they're used for hunting bears. Really? A: no bears in the British archipelago since dog knows when. B: herding and hunting are very different activities. C: diminutive corgi vs. great big bear would be funny right up until it became horrible.
Was this a historic use, or is someone having a laugh? 71.248.115.187 (talk) 22:58, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Never heard of this activity! Patrick Ormos  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phicwc (talk • contribs) 19:02, 18 May 2014 (UTC) 

Why is there a spitz navigation template at the bottom of the article, when the template does not include this article (Welsh Corgi)? -- John Broughton   (♫♫) 22:47, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Welsh Corgi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs) 12:51, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Should the infobox data be sourced?

I'd edited from the pre-existing version to match the information given in the article itself. So it wouldn't be an issue to cite it as I'd just mirror the cites from the body of the article. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I've added the cites from the article to the infobox. Miyagawa (talk) 19:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
History
"Both Pembrokeshire and Cardigan were historically agricultural areas of Wales,[2] and the combination of their low height off the ground and innate agility of Welsh Corgis would allow them to avoid the hooves of cattle." -I don't think this sentence all belongs together, the combination part doesn't seem to follow on naturally.
I've split the two into separate sentences. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Welsh language- link?
Added. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"Welsh folklore says the corgi is the preferred mount of tiny, woodland fairy warriors.[3] T" -wording seems a little odd, is this a paraphrase of an author or something? It might be best to quote and attribute if so.
I've removed that line. It was a mention from a book that was used prior to my work on the article, so when I found a source I had access to, I added it... right after that line and then promptly forgot to remove the original. So there's basically the same thing there now, from a different source - but only one mention of it instead of two. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"and it is thought that these two breeds share a common ancestor" -by whom?
The source doesn't say who unfortunately, only that it's a theory out there. A completely rubbish theory if you ask me, as the weight of evidence is squarely on the side of separate evolutions and subsequently cross breeding in the 18th century. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"Captain J.P. Howell called together a meeting of breeders of both the Pembroke and the Cardigan varieties, and formed the Welsh Corgi Club with an initial membership of 59 members. " -where, Pembroke?
Not sure, the source only says "the local pub". I'll look into it, as I haven't checked the official website of the club and they're sure to say. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I've checked and the club doesn't mention it. No news stories about it in the BNA either. Miyagawa (talk) 19:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"The first Championship was granted at a Cardiff show in 1928, which was awarded to a red and white Pembroke bitch named Shan Fach. " -which was doesn't work well here, try "The first Championship was granted at a Cardiff show in 1928, with the prize awarded to a red and white Pembroke bitch named Shan Fach".
Changed as suggested. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"es, registering him with the AKC as Sierra Bowhit Pivot. In addition to his British titles, he became the first Corgi to be awarded Champion status in America and the first such dog to be named Best of Group at a conformation show in the United States" -when?
I've got the importation year, but let me look into it more to see if there is more information about when the victory occurred. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
No luck with finding other sources for this. Miyagawa (talk) 19:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Modern breeds
""There is a greater number of colours of coat present in the Pembroke breed" - should it be "There are a' greater number" ... ?
Done. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Is there really nothing more to say about 1940s-present aside from that line on 1997? I would have expected a further paragraph.
Only some brief expansion, but it does add that the Pembroke became really popular after the Second World War - the fourth most popular breed in the UK - higher than the Labrador for example. Plus a runner up spot at Crufts. I also managed to example the Vulnerable Native Breed information a fair bit. I'd thought I'd made a mistake by saying it was the Pembroke as the Cardigan numbers should have been lower... only to discover the VNB has managed to leave off the other Corgi breed. Then in doing so, I also discovered sources to show the Pembroke is no longer on the list. So that's all been added. Miyagawa (talk) 19:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"while a dog of this breed should weigh" -why "should", you mean for a contest?
I've clarified this to say that those weights/heights are based on the breed standards. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"" After a visit to Thomas Thynne, 5th Marquess of Bath, Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret made it well known to their family that they liked the Corgis owned by the Marquess." -when?
1933 - added. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"In 1961, a Corgi featured in the Walt Disney film, Little Dog Lost.[35] In the anime Cowboy Bebop, the main characters have a super-intelligent Pembroke Welsh corgi, Ein, on their ship.[36] The Top Shelf graphic novel Korgi plays on the folklore tradition of the corgi " -check capitalization inconsistency throughout of "corgi"
Fixed. I'd replaced the cites, but retained the text from prior to my version, so that's where the lowercase corgis snuck in. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
@Miyagawa: A decent enough effort though I'd have expected a little more in post 30s and perhaps some example of famous corgis.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:11, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: Thanks for the review. There's a couple of places I need to expand on and check for potential more information. I'll ping you again once I've done that. Miyagawa (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
@Dr. Blofeld: Ok, I think I've addressed everything. Mind you, I now know far more about the Queen's Corgis than I ever thought I would! Also found an interesting bit of EU related paranoia from The Times, claiming that dogs like the Corgi, Cocker Spaniel and Bassett Hound would get banned because of the length of their ears. That was 1997... and I'm pretty sure that never happened! ;) Miyagawa (talk) 19:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality: 
B. MoS compliance: 
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources: 
B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: 
C. No original research: 
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects: 
B. Focused: 
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias: 
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc: 
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales: 
B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: 
Overall:
Pass or Fail:  A job well done!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Presumably there are some non-Welsh corgis?  Where?  Or perhaps whence?  Mongolian?  Argentinian? Monmouthshavian?
Enquiring minds also want to know about the many non-Japanese sushis of this world.

David Lloyd-Jones (talk) 16:36, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Currently there is a section entitled "Family Friendly" that is useless to the page, biased and for the most part does not cite sources. It reads:

"Corgis have a very fun loving personality. They are eager to please their owners in every possible way."
What does this mean? It's extremely nonspecific. How could it possibly be verified?

"Since the breed was bred to be a bearding dog, they are very trainable and intelligent."
Do they mean a "herding dog?" Where is this information coming from?

"The American Kennel Club gives a ranking of the most popular dog breeds. Out of all the dog breeds listened, Corgis were ranked number 18 out of 194."
Fine, but hardly seems to necessitate its own section. This entire thing reads like bad corgi PR copy.

Regarding the legends linking Corgis to the Welsh faerie folk, is the phrase "the origins of this legend are dubious" meant to suggest that the idea that Corgis were bred by the faeries is dubious or that the "legends" themselves may have been created artificially? PurpleChez (talk) 17:47, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

The reference reads, "In Welsh legend, corgis were once the steeds of the fairy folk. ​You can still see the faint markings of the fairy saddles across the Pembroke Welsh Corgi's shoulders and back... or so I've heard. I found many books and websites which mentioned the "ancient legend," but none provided a source. Conversely, I could not find any books of Welsh legend that mentioned the corgi's enchanted origins. It's an orphaned fun fact."I would take it that you are correct with your second interpretation. Cheers! Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Many thanks!! PurpleChez (talk) 19:12, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Should Corgi always be capitalised? Or only in combination, as in Welsh Corgi? Goustien (talk) 01:17, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

When writing in any other language than Welsh, yes.Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) (contribs) 10:40, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
CORGIS 23.93.98.19 (talk) 13:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I have found several sources that indicate the first Welsh Corgi to win best in show has a name of "Sierra Bowhit Pivot" as opposed to "Bowhit Pivot", as currently listed in the History section. 
Here are a few websites that indicate the name as "Sierra Bowhit Pivot":
https://www.welshcorgi-news.ch/Leseecke/InfoCorgi/Pivot_eng.html
https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/pembroke_welsh_corgi/dog.html?id=1625760-bowhit-pivot?_v=20080825154722
https://www.morningcorgi.com/content.html
https://www.akc.org/about/archive/guide-collections/pembroke-collection/ KyleJHendrickson (talk) 17:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The redirect Corgidor has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 21 § Corgidor until a consensus is reached.  Utopes (talk / cont) 05:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is any conclusive evidence that "corgi" means dwarf dog. That sounds a lot like folk etymology. The alternative theory - "cur" as in "working" i.e., not a pet or a show dog - also has significant support. See e.g., this article. mnivis (talk) 15:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The source for the claim is a book published by a reputable publisher. The alternate theory is sourced to a self-published website. Dog breed books aren't the supreme source for linguistics but you'll need something more to dispute it. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
I don’t know what counts as respectable, but a search on Google Books with the words “corgi” and “cur” brings up loads of sources, including Welsh – English dictionaries from the 18th century onwards, that present different theories on the origin of the name (and the meaning of the word “cur” in Welsh). I just think that the dwarf dog theory is more contentious than the current formulation on the page implies. mnivis (talk) 19:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
A dictionary from the 18th century is probably not a reliable source and there is no reason to default to it over more recent sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
There is currently no reference to anything in the article, regarding the name. Just an unattributed statement that claims the name is derived from the Welsh words "cor" and "ci". There is no word "cor" in Welsh. mnivis (talk) 14:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
It is referenced to Beauchamp, Richard (1999). Welsh Corgis: Pembroke and Cardigan. Hauppauge, NY: Baron's. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Not in the first paragraph it isn’t. mnivis (talk) 20:47, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
The lead is a summary of the body and doesn't require citations so long as the information is cited within the body. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:49, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
Cor does indeed mean 'dwarf' in Welsh (See wiktionary: cor § Welsh). And all the best accessible etymology sources concur with the cor+gi/dwarf+dog etymology. See the entries for corgi in the University of Wales Dictionary (Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru), the Online Etymology Dictionary, the Oxford English Dictionary (if you have access), and on Wiktionary.
Even the 2006 article Mnivis referenced says this etymology is the "generally accepted view". The article goes on to say that Clifford Hubbard (an expert on dog breeds, not an etymologist) believed there was a connection between the the words corgi and cur. Beauchamp 1999 does not source his claim doesn't actually say anything about the etymology, just that corgi could mean "cur dog" in Welsh. Pangur Bán & I (talk) 05:55, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
For further relevant discussion, see the Pembroke Welsh Corgi talk page. Pangur Bán & I (talk) 19:51, 17 February 2025 (UTC)